# Dang gun is not shootin again



## CHARLIE

Went to the range and my Model 7 223 has decided not to group again. Heck gouldnt get more than a 2 inch group at 100 yards. Had three different loads worked up with benchmark, varget, and H335 all with 53 Gr. Barnes TSX.. Most tempermental gun I ever tried to shoot. The gun is bedded along with free floating barrel. Oh well back to work.

Charlie


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## coogerpop

Some rifles shoot better when they are bedded....some free floated except for an upward pressure at the front...have to play with it to find the right combo...and load...


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## firefight

Try going to a 62 or a 69 grain bullet. They seem to work much better in the gun that my friend owns. Also check your scope and mount.


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## CHARLIE

I understand all that guys. I have been through all of it from the bedded barrel to the pressure point barrel, to the scope issue, to the different bullet issue I have never been really satisfied with the gun. Last year I did get it to shoot about an inch. I have decided there is an issue with the gun and am going to start checking the crown, and the bolt meshing with the chamber, something is wrong..

Charlie


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## Pocketfisherman

Check the tightness of the screws that hold the action to the stock. For best consistency, use a torque wrench whenever you tighten them. A loose screw will cause erratic shooting. How many rounds do you have through the barrel, an eroded throat will also cause a problem, but a 223 should last a long time. Last thing is copper fouling of the bore. One of the foaming bore cleaners is the ticket, let it soak good as the chemical needs time to react with the copper.


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## Africanut

If you have been shooting Barnes for a while then I can guarantee you that there is copper "sledding" still present between the lands no matter how much copper solvent you have used or what brand. Only thing that will get rid of the latent copper is a couple of treatments of ISSO and then to swab barrel back and forth about 200 times with JB compound.. Copper sledding is a big time problem in .20 and .22's. give it a whirl.


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## davidb

Twist rate? 1-14 no go, a 1-12 can work but marginal for the 53 TSX. Try the 45gr. TSX or another shorter bullet if you have the slow twist.

Yep I would check all screws, bolt lug engagement, muzzle crown and the bedding to make sure it is really free floating. A pressure point is sometimes better for light weight barrels.

But cleaning is numero uno or your wasting bullets.

The Barnes sometimes shoot better way off the lands 0.03-.08 is the range I usually try. Also if you suspect the barrel I have had good luck on heavy fouling factory barrels with the Tubbs Final finish. It may only make cleaning easier but other times it really improves the throat and barrel and can cut groups in half. Don't use it on a custom barrel unless it is already close to being shot out.

Another product I want to try is Utra Bore Coat. I am almost hoping to get a questionable factory barrel to try both products together.

Good luck & BTW I used to put up a paper plate at an unknown distance and blaze away off hand at it with the 30 M1 and the thutty-thutty. If I hit mostly in the center of the plate I was good to go. I think we get a little OCD about groups from reading too many gun magazines, myself included.


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## Ernest

I like chemicals for cleaning copper, rather than abrasive techniques. But, perhaps thats just me. 

I'd hit it real good with some Butch's Bore Shine (or other serious copper cleaner), let that stuff dwell for a good 30 minutes, and then patch it out. If any blue whatsoever, I would repeat until no more blue streaks on the patch. If after 6 or 8 go rounds (dwelling for 30 minutes) you still have a copper issue, re-evaluate. 

Basically, go with the least potentially harmful method possible 1st, before turning to mechanical means of de-coppering a barrel. Again, thats just me.


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## Team Buddhahead

Bore-Scope it....


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## CHARLIE

I have checked stock bolts numerous times also cleaned the barrel numerous times but yall mite be rite. I think I am going to try some other brand of copper cleaner. Hmmm Butches Bore Shine I will give it a try. Twist rate is 1-9.

Charlie


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## Charles Helm

Have you tried Wipe-Out on the copper?

Maybe get yourself a .22-250?


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## B-Money

My 30-06 slowly started getting crazy. It was the scope. Bausch/Bushnell replaced the scope and I am back sub MOA.


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## CHARLIE

Charles

No I have not tried that one either. I will have to give it a shot

Charlie


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## THE JAMMER

Confucious say: "Never say bad things about one's own gun on the same forum you might selling that gun on later."

LOL

I think it's all been said here already. The main thing I have found that affects accuracy in Barnes bullets is seating depth. They are really tempermental about that. I know you know that already Charlie, but....


THE JAMMER


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## ss mudminnow

i am not saying anything about your shootin abilities,but i would let some one else shoot it a few times before i did anything drastic, if it still dont shoot i will give you 50.00 bucks fer it. Scotty


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## Charles Helm

You can rule out optics, stock, etc. by seeing how it shoots with some other bullet.


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## Bantam1

Have you tried heavier bullets like 69 grains or in that weight? Maybe your rifle will like the heavier loads better.


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## CHARLIE

Gets much worse with heavier bullets. Best it ever shot was with the 45 gr Barnes boat tail.They dont make it any more.

Charlie


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## Texas T

Sierra makes some 40 and 45 grain bullets. Might want to see what they do in it.


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## CHARLIE

Texas T

Hey ole buddy how you doing ? I wont use the Sierra its not a deer round. Mite shoot paper or varmits with it. I use my lil gun to shoot deer and Barnes is the only bullet that works for that. I am beginning to think it mite be copper fouling. I have cleaned it with my copper solvent about 3 times and still getting green colored patches out of the barrel.

Charlie


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## Texas T

Doing good when I'm not breaking rocks with the back of my head, story for another day,

I have used Outer's electronic foul out 2 kit to clean copper and lead out of some heavily fouled barrels with great success. Showed the owners all of the flakes that came out of their guns.

I see they are up to a foul out 3 kit now, must be more environmentally safe.

If you want to give it a try give a holler and I'll check to see that I have the copper solution.


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## B-Money

Stainless steel bore brush plus copper solvent.


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## CHARLIE

Texas T

I will try and find some and if I caint I wil check back with you.Heading down to the lease early AM to see if the dove are still around. Probably all this weather made them move. My luck. Oh yes I have cleaned that gun with brush and solvent probably 4 times and still not getting the patch clean. 

Charlie


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## Charles Helm

Try the Wipe Out if you can find it locally.


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## davidb

Another vote for Wipe out. I use JB bore cleaner but after the Wipe out you probably won't need it.


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## Matteo

Sounds like you are getting alot of good advice from everyone here.

1. Cleaning the bore will obviously help. 

2. You have mentioned that heavier bullets are worse which is directly related to the stability of the bullets flight that is imparted by the twist rate of your bore. There are only two choices to fix that. One is to buy a new barrel with more twist that will stabilize the flight of heavier bullets. The other choice is to stick with light bullets that your current barrel can stabilize.

3. Here is something that happened to me that you might consider. I had a good gun that had a scope that functioned fine. I couldn't shoot consistently tight groups with it though. The reason was that the reticle in the scope was too thick and was not conducive to pinpoint accuracy. I switched to a scope that has a finer reticle and solved the problem.

Good luck. With all of 2cool helping, you will be driving tacks in no time.


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## CHARLIE

Well been getting green stuff out of my gun for a few hours now (still am). I hope it fixes it. I guess the regular counter stuff that claims to be copper solvent really doesent work. 

Charlie


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## Charles Helm

Good luck with it.


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## Too Tall

While you are at it run a Qtip over the crown and see if you get any snags. Maybe an indicator of another problem at the crown.


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## CHARLIE

TT

Souds like a good Idea to me.

Charlie


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## Matteo

:headknock WELL?

The suspense is killing us!!!

When will you get to the range again??

:clover:Good Luck


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## ATE_UP_FISHERMAN

Sounds like you need to moly coat.


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## coogerpop

CHARLIE said:


> I understand all that guys. I have been through all of it from the bedded barrel to the pressure point barrel, to the scope issue, to the different bullet issue I have never been really satisfied with the gun. Last year I did get it to shoot about an inch. I have decided there is an issue with the gun and am going to start checking the crown, and the bolt meshing with the chamber, something is wrong..
> 
> Charlie


 Sounds to me like ,unless you like the challenge,you need to send that one down the road and spend your time on a better candidate for accuracy.


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## davidb

To be continued in the classified adds?


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## seattleman1969

Is your barrel a standard chro mo, stainless, etc?

If you really want to keep the rifle and don't mind spending a little money on it a lapped stainless barrel or even a chrome lined barrel might reduce the copper fouling from the barnes bullets. 

Just a thought


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## CHARLIE

Oh I forgot to mention my boy brought iover some "sweets" copper cleaner and it does have some amonia and it does clean. I will try to get to the range as soon as I can. Still getting blue out of the barrel.

Charlie


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## Charles Helm

I'm sure you know this, but if you use a bronze brush with the ammonia you may get blue forever. 

With Wipe Out, you spray it in the barrel and leave it for a while, then patch it out and repeat as necessary. With ammonia you do not want to leave it in too long.


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## yep

what happens if you leave ammonia in too long and how long is too long? I've been shooting barnes tsx for a little while now and after reading this thread want to make sure and get all the copper out.

Thanks,
Yep


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## Ernest

Ammonia attracts moisture. Fancy word for it, but basically, it will suck moisture out of the air and deposit it in your barrel. Moisture then leads to rust. Rust creates pits. Pits are less than ideal for accuracy. So, if you use ammonia, get it out afterwards. 

Similarly, some claim ammonia can actually etch the internal surface of the barrel. Barnes CR-10 (an ammonia based cleaning product) has directions indicating it can etch steel if left in contact more than a certain amount of time (15 minutes, as I recall). Again, less than ideal for accuracy. 

Some suggest the best ammonia cleaner is janitor grade ammonia. The household stuff is 3% ammonia, give or take. Janitor grade is something like 10% ammonia.


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## Kyle 1974

charlie, I have an 223 with a 1:9 twist, and that gun will shoot the 40 grain bullets better than anything. I have been shooting the 40 grain hornady V max for a couple months now, and they are much better than any other load I've tried. 

I shot black hills 55 grain, black hills 52 grain HPBT, hornady 55 grain V max, remington 55 grain, black hills 62 grain and none of those shot under an inch. With the 40 grain v max, I'm getting .7 - .8 inch groups (5 shots) consistantly.

They are also fun to shoot crows with... they jsut kind of go "poof"


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## CHARLIE

OK folks here's the results. I took the gun with 4 different loads yesterday and shot. three of the powders would not shoot well probably maybe 1 1/2 inch which is not acceptable to me. Powders were Benchmark, BLC2, and H335. The H335 shot great last year but not now. The 4th powder IMR4895 shot about an inch. So today I reloaded some of the 4895 in several different loads. 24 Gr and COL 2.175 and 2.20 and it shot about an inch the 2.20 was somewhat better. Another load was 25.3 (25.5 is max) gr of IMR4895 with the COL 2.175 and she shot 1/2 inch with 4 shots. Now your talking, so next time I will try the same powder load and move the COL to 2.200. I am feeling better bout the lil gun. After several episodes with Sweets I think most of the copper is gone. Sweets advises to never leave in the barrel for longer than 15 inutes. Longest I left it in was about 5 minutes and then cleaned it with some Hoppe's and a brush. (several times). Oh bullet was 53 Gr Barnes TSX. I am going to try the 45 Gr TSX again. They used to make a 45 Gr boattail that shot great in my gun but no longer make it only a flat base. Gun has a 1/12 twist.

Sorry no pictures my wife has the camera out of town.

Charlie


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## Charles Helm

Hope it is coming around for you.


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## Ernest

Glad to hear you are making some progress here. If you want to try N135 or H332, I can hook you up with a couple or three hundred grains for testing. 

In that regard, be nice if we could buy "test packs" of say 500 grains to 1000 grains of powder. Maybe even caliber specific groupings from a mfg'er of all their products usable for a range of bullet weights. For example, just a dab of N133, N135, N140, N540 for .223.


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## Bantam1

I wish they offered test packs like you said. It would have saved me a lot of money and time for sure...thankfully I got lucky with my first .223 load. Not so lucky with the .308.


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## davidb

Hogdon used to offer test packs of four related powders in little plastic kegs. I think there a collectors item now. 

Still wondering if the twist is a factor, might try them at 200 yards. In some cases the 200yd group will be as good or better when stabilization is on the good side of marginal. And if the twist is too slow they will open up and sometimes keyhole. But you know what your doing and are getting pretty good results already.


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## Cap-N-Red

Good luck Charlie , my Rem. 22/250 has the 1-12 twist and will not stabilize anything longer than the 55grn Speer. That rules out the 53grn Barnes TSX. How far are you setting those TSX's off the lands?


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## CHARLIE

Cap-N-Red

My gun is a 1-12 twist rate and anything bigger than the 53 gr won't shoot in my gun. I have discovered that with the Barnes (as they recomend) to hold the bullet off the lands a bit. Last year my COL on my best shooting round was 2.125 and that is way off the lands. So far this year I have tried the old 2.125, and 2.150 and now the 2.200 which shot good. Seems to change for me and I dont have a clue as to why. Regarding the Barnes as yall can tell I am stuck on it because of its performance. I deer hunt with it and it must always perform which it does. I cannot say that about all the other 22 cal bullets I have tried. The IMR4895 seems to work real well with my gun. I also think lots of my problems was with copper in the barrel. I have to make the choice before next weekend. The range opens Wednesday and I am going to try and be there.Wish me luck. Last week the 4895 shot less than an inch with 25.3 gr and 2.175 case length. I hate to tell yall but the can of IMR4895 floated up to my house during IKE. I saved the can and it was about to rust through so I put it in another empty plastic powder container. I think the can washing up must have been an omen. 

Ernest... Thanks for the offer but maybe I have stumbled upon a load that will work. I will let you know..

Charlie


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## phil k

bore - tech is all i ever use


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## CHARLIE

Here is a picture from the range last week.


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## Ernest

25.3 looks pretty decent. Looks like a 1/2 inch of verticle, give or take, (assuming those are 1 x 1 squares.) 

I'd reload that charge x20 in five's and vary the COAL length. Then, I'd load -.2 thru +.2 to see the width of the node.


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## CHARLIE

Ernest

Have a few variations even up to maximum according to Barnes 25.5 loaded for a trip to the range tomorrow if I can make it. Will let yall know regarding the results. Yes those are 1 inch blocks. Also in the first group I assume the flyer to the right (bulls eye) was due to a new clean barrel. Should have shot it in the dirt.

Charlie


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## CHARLIE

Could not make it to the range today. I will try again tomorrow. For a retired (retarded) person I sure dont have much time. Ill have to change that.

Charlie


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## Texas T

CHARLIE said:


> Could not make it to the range today. I will try again tomorrow. For a retired (retarded) person I sure dont have much time. Ill have to change that.
> 
> Charlie


 LOL, I know what you mean. How did we do it back when we had to work. Good luck tomorrow


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## Brassnadz

Texas T said:


> LOL, I know what you mean. How did we do it back when we had to work. Good luck tomorrow


Someday soon, I hope to join you retard, I mean retired folks with no time to do anything!:cheers::biggrin:


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