# Another East Texas deer breeder busted...



## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Cherokee County Deer Breeder Pleads Guilty to Smuggling Deer
Prominent breeder Agreed to Pay $1.5 million for Smuggling Deer into East Texas
TYLER - After a lengthy four year investigation a 77-year-old Cherokee County, Texas licensed deer breeder has pleaded guilty to illegally transporting wildlife in the Eastern District of Texas and then lying about it to a U.S. Fish and Wildlife agent, announced U.S. Attorney John M. Bales today.

Billy Powell pleaded guilty on June 14, 2011, to the felony offense of smuggling at least 37 whitetail deer, over a 3 year time span, from Indiana , Illinois , and Ohio into Texas in violation of state and federal laws. Powell also admitted that he made a false statement and submitted a false document to a U.S. Fish and Wildlife special agent who was looking into the matter. Powell has agreed to pay a $1 million fine, to be deposited into the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Lacy Act Reward Fund, as well as $500,000.00 in restitution to Texas Parks and Wildlife, on his sentencing date. Powell's agreement with the government calls for Powell to serve 3 years probation with six months of home confinement which will be monitored with an electric anklet. During the term of probation, Powell will be prohibited from participating in any manner in commercial deer breeding. Additionally, Powell must forfeit any illegally imported deer, any progeny of those deer, and any biological material derived from said deer, which would include any semen, antlers, mounts, and cloned deer. Powell has already forfeited over 1,300 straws of frozen semen valued at approximately $961,500.00 to U.S. Fish and Wildlife.

According to information presented in court, on at least four separate occasions, spanning from October 2006 through June 2008, Powell knowingly imported at least 37 live whitetail deer, many of whom came from captive deer farms in Ligonier, Indiana, into the state of Texas and to his "5-P Farms", high fenced deer breeding facility in Cherokee County Texas. These deer included bucks known as "Fat Boy" aka "Barry", "Silver Storm" aka "Hit Man", "Y 009", "Eagle Storm" aka "BJ", "Thunderstruck", "High Five", and "Primer" aka "Spikes". At all times Powell knew that Texas law prohibited any person from possessing a deer acquired from an out-of-state source. In spite of this, Powell agreed to participate in the above-described transactions in which whitetail deer would be secretly transported from Illinois , Indiana , and/or Pennsylvania , to Texas in order to evade Texas laws and regulations.

Powell acknowledged that the fair market value of all of the illegally imported, whitetail deer exceeded approximately $800,000.00, that the value of the illegally accumulated white-tailed deer semen exceeded approximately $961,000.00, and that the value of the progeny exceeded approximately $290,000.00.

Powell further admitted that he lied to a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Special Agent during a voluntary statement at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Tyler , Texas . Powell told the agent that he had illegally imported approximately 35 white-tailed deer into the state of Texas when in fact he knew that he had illegally imported no less than 41 white-tailed deer, including 6 white-tail deer fawns. During the same statement, Powell also submitted lists identifying 35 white-tailed deer as the total number of white-tailed deer that he had illegally imported into the state of Texas when he knew that he had actually illegally imported no less than 41 white-tailed, including 6 white-tail deer fawns.

Findings of the investigation also prompted the Wildlife Division of Texas Parks and Wildlife Department to conduct an epidemiological investigation in consultation with veterinarians and wildlife disease experts from Texas Animal Health Commission, Texas Department of State Health Services, and Texas *A&M College of Veterinary Medicine and accredited veterinarians actively involved in the deer breeding industry. This process was carried out in three separate phases. Ultimately all 334 deer contained in Powell's deer breeding facility were euthanized to facilitate testing for chronic wasting disease (CWD) and bovine tuberculosis (TB). This process was necessary in order to provide an acceptable level of assurance that neither disease was prevalent in Powell's deer breeding facility nor in any deer breeding facility that had received deer from Powell's facility since October 2004.

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department has had an intensive CWD surveillance program since 2002, and this disease has yet to be detected in Texas . Likewise, bovine tuberculosis has not been detected in any Texas deer population. However, illegal entry of white-tailed deer from other states poses a serious risk of introducing these diseases and others into Texas . Introduction of these diseases into Texas could have a detrimental impact on the longtime cultural tradition of deer hunting, which generates an estimated $1.2 billion in retail sales and has a total economic output of more than $2 billion in Texas each year. Disease monitoring is also necessary to protect legal deer breeding activity from risk of disease exposure. Furthermore, bovine tuberculosis could have a significant impact on the Texas livestock industry. Prevention is the most effective tool to combat diseases because once established in wild populations, these diseases are extremely difficult, if not impossible to eradicate.

Since no live-animal test for CWD exists, TPWD consulted with trained experts to ensure the most humane euthanasia method and treatment of the animals was used. Texas Parks and Wildlife officials are presently awaiting the test results for the tissue samples submitted to the Texas Veterinarian Medical Diagnostic Laboratory located in College Station , TX

This case was investigated by the Special Operations Unit of the Texas Parks and Wildlife and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorney Jim Noble.


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## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

Hmmmm. Guess he ****** them off. Can't tell me he is the only one. Maybe he refused to donate a hunt or something. I understand the law just wonder how selectively it's enforced.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

He's isnt the only one.... and he's not the only one to get busted either. TPWD just doesnt have the resources to catch them all... These investigations take up so many man hours and so much money.

Most of these investigations start off with rumors, so its a long drawn out proving process.

Greed is a bad drug....


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Mallards and Deer*

A farm-raised greenhead mallard is about twice the size of a wild greenhead mallard....but no duck hunter would pay to shoot one.

Whassup with deer hunters?


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## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

Johnboat said:


> A farm-raised greenhead mallard is about twice the size of a wild greenhead mallard....but no duck hunter would pay to shoot one.
> 
> Whassup with deer hunters?


Who's buying the ducks? Deerhunters? Lol


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## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

Justin, this is the only one I've ever heard about. Personally, I would like to see all these criminals busted.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Big money keeps alot of the stories from being published in a manner like this one.... I know of a handful of others that got alot of heat, but the investigatons didnt completely pan out to the magnitude of this guy in Tyler, but for some reason, you cant ever find much information about the other cases online.

Non-legal breeders are definetely the minority here.... I know many who are straight by the book.... but, theres always a few that try to get that extra edge. No different that a few athletes trying to sneak some steroids in.... Its a shame that such folks give the other breeders a bad name.




PS.... deer vs ducks.... you just cant do it... People dont pay big $$ to shoot fat deer.... they pay big money to shoot big racked deer.

Guarantee a banded bird kill or mallard/pintail hybrid and see how many folks start shoveling out the $$$ while in their waders....


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

Bucksnort said:


> this is the only one I've ever heard about.


Here's one that seemed to fly under the radar despite the fact that all the deer were proven to be disease free _after_ they had been shot...

Massacre at the Anderton ranch: TPWD kills 71 deer
 
Excerpt...

"All these deer were taken from 9 a.m. to 5:30 p.m.," he said. "We're talking 70 deer, two shooters, 8 hours. So it wasn't a bam-bam-bam, going crazy.

"It was a very somber event, with people doing what they needed to do."

He said the sharpshooters were both TPWD biologists. One rifle was chambered in .17 Hornet and the other fired a .22 Magnum. TPWD hunting regulations state that deer "may not be hunted with rimfire ammunition of any caliber."

He added that about 75 percent of the deer were downed with single shots to the heart, but more shooting was needed for the rest.

"Obviously, when you're dealing with a small caliber, you have to make follow-up shots," Lightfoot said.

Full story...

http://www.lsonews.com/hunting-news/1423-massacre-at-the-anderton-ranch-tpwd-kills-71-deer


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Diseased or not though, you cant return them BACK across state lines to their origin...

Plus, darting and testing 71 deer is not a small task.... not to mention, the $$ for the testing and time frame.

Its sad, but these people shouldnt be upset with TPWD.... they should be throwing stones at the people who brought them across lines in the first place.


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

Take them all out! I miss the good ol days of hunting with my dad on a 500 acre low fence $400. A gun lease. It was awesome to shoot any deer.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*How can you tell an imported deer from a native Texas deer?*

Here's a clue.


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## Cincolomas (Oct 21, 2010)

Anyone that enjoys deer hunting should be happy about what TPWD is doing. If CWD gets into Texas, you can kiss hunting in the immediate area goodbye and possibly a huge part of the state. Once CWD is discovered it would be nearly impossible to track down. It would take out a large part of the herd on it's own and TPWD would have to euthanize many deer as well.

Also, Mr. Powell owned about 20,000 acres across the road from me for many years. Unfortunately, he sold his ranch one piece at a time every time he lost a big gambling wager......obviously he still likes to gamble. Too bad, but not with "our" deer!!!!


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> darting and testing 71 deer is not a small task.... not to mention, the $$ for the testing and time frame.


The only test involves removing the brain stem and sending it off to the lab.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

AvianQuest said:


> The only test involves removing the brain stem and sending it off to the lab.


Oh, well hell, then there is no other choice.... I wouldnt think that anybody would want to take a chance with just testing a few....

Its definetely a shame, BUT, the people who do these type of things know the reprecussions from the get go. They have no respect for the law or wildlife... A few bad apples......


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

I'm wondering if this is the same Billy Powell that used to (mite still) work for the Kings Ranch, if so he used to work for my dad in the Taxidermist buss in the early 70s, could be the same guy as the age is rite to be him.... am not surprised....WW


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

We for sure its just not limited to east Texas


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

just like with anyting in life, there's always gonna be a couple of bad apples to ruin it for the good guys.

to the other comment about hunting with dad for $400 "the good old days"....they are still there, nobody is forcing you to "trophy hunt" or what not...

go out and enjoy what you do, we all do it (hunt) for reasons other than the big rack trophy. :cheers:


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

osoobsessed said:


> just like with anyting in life, there's always gonna be a couple of bad apples to ruin it for the good guys.
> 
> to the other comment about hunting with dad for $400 "the good old days"....they are still there, nobody is forcing you to "trophy hunt" or what not...
> 
> go out and enjoy what you do, we all do it (hunt) for reasons other than the big rack trophy. :cheers:


Thats true... i know of a couple of HUGE properties that you can hunt for $48.


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## cpthook (Jan 16, 2008)

High fences and transplanted white tail are just not the same as fair chase free ranging. I just do not understand, but times have changed. What kind of gratitude or since of accomplishment is in that?? There is big money in it and it's gotten completely out of control. Why not just have a taxidery make the horns however you so desire, same results. Then you cna have a 500 B&C sculpted and hang it on the wall.


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## cpthook (Jan 16, 2008)

There was a group of East Texas boys busted in Kansas for poaching deer at night or any way they could get them, wonder if somehow tied to this guy?? This was a year or two ago but it had been going on for several years prior to getting busted.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

cpthook said:


> There was a group of East Texas boys busted in Kansas for poaching deer at night or any way they could get them, wonder if somehow tied to this guy?? This was a year or two ago but it had been going on for several years prior to getting busted.


Search for it on the internet and you wont find a single thing... there were some instances of these same folks bringing darted deer back across into Texas via private planes... you wont find info on that either.... 95% sure those folks werent the same as this guy in the Cherokee County story.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

By the way, I have NOTHING against high fenced places.... They serve their purpose in the entertainment, business and property enrichment sectors of the market...

Cant hate on folks that want to improve on what they have. If you started doing that, you might as well start bashing folks with high profile bird dogs and such.

In many instances, it makes sense for alot of people to hunt high fenced places, especially for day hunts. The time constraints of life today prevent many from developing their own property to produce quality animals. It doesnt make sense on their bank statements.

If I could add up all the time and money I have spent on deer hunting, my return on investment is EXTREMELY poor. haha


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## duhunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Funny thing about this whole thing is that buddy raises fawn for this powell ranch and has been doing it for the last five to six years now and far as I know is is doing it. And lives in the same area.


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## hillbilly deluxe (Jun 7, 2007)

justinsfa said:


> By the way, I have NOTHING against high fenced places.... They serve their purpose in the entertainment, business and property enrichment sectors of the market...
> 
> Cant hate on folks that want to improve on what they have. If you started doing that, you might as well start bashing folks with high profile bird dogs and such.
> 
> ...


 The big difference between white tail deer and bird dogs is the dog is your to do what you want. a whitetail deer is owned by the state and the land owner it happens to be on. That being said once you high fence a place then you stop that deer from moving to my place your place are any where it wants to then making it your to do what you want. witch does not give every one else that buys a licence the chance to hunt that deer for say. Whitetail deer should be able to move freelly not pened up so people with the high fence can make money with something that is not really there's. It's glorified stealing!!!!!!! If you want to run exotics on your high fenced place then those r something you own. but you should be made to remove all white tail from your high fence place because the white tail deer do not belong to one person.

But with like every thing else MONEY run the show.

I do under stand why people put up high fences totally. because there neighbor shoots every thing that walks. are has 50ac and has 20 people coming out to hunt killing a limit each believe me i know way to dam well.

It sucks when you let a young buck walk to only here a shot 15-20 min later from your neighbor that does nothing to help the wildlife but thats the way it goes. The laws need a over hualing big time.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Acreage allocation for deer, woulda shoulda coulda*

Deer are just like oil and gas in that they migrate from tract to tract without concern for who the owner is. Someone with a five acre tract is generally not allowed to drill four wells and drain his neighbor because allocation and well locations are regulated by the state government as to how many wells per how many acres for a given oil or gas field.

Now, if they had just done this with deer from the git go... i.e. 40 acres can harvest X many deer and 4,000 acres can take XXX many deer....well then there would be no excuse for high fences.

The legal exception allowing high fences was bought and paid for by rich landowners, pure and simple. It flies in the face of the larger legal premise that wild animals belong to the people of Texas.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

hillbilly deluxe said:


> The big difference between white tail deer and bird dogs is the dog is your to do what you want. a whitetail deer is owned by the state and the land owner it happens to be on. That being said once you high fence a place then you stop that deer from moving to my place your place are any where it wants to then making it your to do what you want. witch does not give every one else that buys a licence the chance to hunt that deer for say. Whitetail deer should be able to move freelly not pened up so people with the high fence can make money with something that is not really there's. It's glorified stealing!!!!!!! If you want to run exotics on your high fenced place then those r something you own. but you should be made to remove all white tail from your high fence place because the white tail deer do not belong to one person.
> 
> But with like every thing else MONEY run the show.
> 
> ...


Not true. High fences serve more of a purpose of keeping deer OUT rather than in. In management, you are not trying to prevent deer from leaving, you are trying to prevent all your neighbors deer from coming onto your property and messing up your population, health and buck/doe ratio.

Also, many high fenced properties drive deer out or totally eradicate rather than coop as many of the free rangers in as they can.


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## Josh5 (Jun 27, 2007)

What do you think of his sentence?
I am glad they didn't but him in for life. I get tired of hearing of DUI Killers getting 4-7 years or child molester etc, and a poacher getting more. 

Granted he is 77.


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## Josh5 (Jun 27, 2007)

At a cemetary, do they put a fence around it to keep the people in, or the vandals out. 

Similar analogy for high fences on ranches. Genetics are one thing, but at the same time there is only a certain amount of groceries to go around. If all the deer off the neighboring properties come eat up your food plots during the summer because the neighbors don't plant plots, then go home for winter when the other owners start pouring corn out on the roads.......


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Josh and Justin*

I read your last two posts....sounds a lot like a cattle operation.

A good friend of mine bought a place in S. Tx, then high fenced, breeder pen, shot out native deer, brought in better genetic deer. He avidly loves doing it , but it leaves me passionless.

I feel like the late Ray Charles speaking about Rap music: _"I ain't got nothin' against the cats playin' it....I just don't get it."_


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

Johnboat said:


> Deer are just like oil and gas in that they migrate from tract to tract without concern for who the owner is. Someone with a five acre tract is generally not allowed to drill four wells and drain his neighbor because allocation and well locations are regulated by the state government as to how many wells per how many acres for a given oil or gas field.
> 
> Now, if they had just done this with deer from the git go... i.e. 40 acres can harvest X many deer and 4,000 acres can take XXX many deer....well then there would be no excuse for high fences.
> 
> The legal exception allowing high fences was bought and paid for by rich landowners, pure and simple. It flies in the face of the larger legal premise that wild animals belong to the people of Texas.


so, can i file my insurance claim when that deer struck my truck on the highway, just PM me the address please. :slimer:


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Funny but maybe there is an issue*



osoobsessed said:


> so, can i file my insurance claim when that deer struck my truck on the highway, just PM me the address please. :slimer:


I don't know. But if the deer has an ear tag and a microchip......who knows.


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## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

good thing they busted this guy. the last thing we need is deer moving across the border without the proper paperwork... because, it never happens naturally.....


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## MEGABITE (May 21, 2004)

"... from Indiana , Illinois , and Ohio into Texas..."


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Johnboat said:


> I read your last two posts....sounds a lot like a cattle operation.
> 
> A good friend of mine bought a place in S. Tx, then high fenced, breeder pen, shot out native deer, brought in better genetic deer. He avidly loves doing it , but it leaves me passionless.
> 
> I feel like the late Ray Charles speaking about Rap music: _"I ain't got nothin' against the cats playin' it....I just don't get it."_


It is very much like that from a business perspective. But how can you be shameful of someone for making a great ROI on their property?

So many folks refer to high fenced properties as pens, but most of these assumptions come from those who have not toured many of these properties.... a 100 acre high fenced property? Yes, a pen, very much so... But when you start looking at over a thousand acres, it is a far cry from a caged hunt.

Is it my cup of tea??? No.... but i understand why both landowners and hunters flock to high fenced properties....


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

Johnboat said:


> I don't know. But if the deer has an ear tag and a microchip......who knows.


i hadn't thought of that one, honestly. would be interesting to knock on that ranchers door and ask him about insurance liability since his deer was tagged... never know.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

osoobsessed said:


> i hadn't thought of that one, honestly. would be interesting to knock on that ranchers door and ask him about insurance liability since his deer was tagged... never know.


To increase the interesting perspective....if it is tagged, and escaped, then no one else could legally cause it intentional harm either....


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*True story: deer with a collar*

About 15 years ago our bicycle club was on a Saturday ride in suburban/countryside east Texas. Well all of a sudden we had a new rider in our pack. This deer with a red collar raced to us...got on the pavement and ran along with us for about a half mile. Then it looked confused and veered back.

It was really not a safe thing. I called the TPWD and asked them about it. They wanted more information because they told me it is illegal to have a pet deer and collar it.

Q: Why is that different from ear-tagged buck No. 144 on a high fence ranch?

Clarification: I didnt mean a high fence ranch is a pen. On my prior post the high fence ranch is about 500 acres...and within that is a 5 acre high fence breeder pen split by high fence into two halves. Each half has one breeder buck and I think about 8 breeder does. Then periodically he darts the breeder bucks and does that have to stay and turns loose the ones that fill up the ranch. Not sure about the details but that is the general idea. 500 acres sounded small to me but he had lots of experts tell him that is an ideal size to manage in his location.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Johnboat said:


> About 15 years ago our bicycle club was on a Saturday ride in suburban/countryside east Texas. Well all of a sudden we had a new rider in our pack. This deer with a red collar raced to us...got on the pavement and ran along with us for about a half mile. Then it looked confused and veered back.
> 
> It was really not a safe thing. I called the TPWD and asked them about it. They wanted more information because they told me it is illegal to have a pet deer and collar it.
> 
> ...


I didnt mean for it to sound like I was pointing the finger at you for making that assumption. It was a general thought. My apologies if taken otherwise.

500 would be a good breeder facility for sure.... a little small for hunting, in my opinion, but then again, I have never hunted a 500 acre fenced tract, so I dont know.... I DOOOO know however, that I was TOTALLY blown away on the first high fenced place that I ever visited. I saw 3 deer driving around over 2 days.... property was 1600 acres. If I remember correctly, there were approximately 150-175 deer on the property....


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*And what about the coyotes and bobcats*

Apparently it is SOP to put snares at every crawl-under on the high fence perimeter. I am not talking about shooting a yote or bob when you see one, but doing everything you can to destroy any on your property using every legal means possible.

So, high fence genetically improved deer management also means no native Texan predator population is tolerated.

Sound familiar?....like sheep and cattle raisers poisoning wolves in the American west....or even earlier like exterminating the buffalo....like early Afrikaaners exterminating all South African wildlife to make room for their farms, sheep, goats and cattle...and decades later realizing that huntable wildlife pays better and having to reintroduce them.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Dont forget, snares are for hogs as well.... but they end up catching everything. Eradication of natural predation is a little more predominate down in South Texas (see other post in this forum about the T-giving Day bobcat).

Ranches down there are also managing turkeys and quail, which are main targets for a bobcat on the prowl. 

Coyotes can be an issue in East Texas, but then again, so are dogs. So snares are a catch all... They will catch a deer just the same.

Proper management is controlling every factor available to produce the highest potential that your herd is capable of. Basically, the human takes on the full roll of all factors, including predation.


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## cpthook (Jan 16, 2008)

In Texas high fences serve there purpose. If I had a S. Texas ranch with surrrounding potlickers killing everything that crossed onto their property I would be forced to high fence. I'm a trophy hunter and got frustrated with Texas, I now have 7500 acre lease in Kansas I hunt. Rifle season is 9 days long while archery season is from mid-Sept thru Dec 31. Deer live to be old even on small places.


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## Listo (Jun 26, 2010)

The friendly competition you share with friends and family yearly of who killed the biggest buck is over. Now it all boils down to who has the most money. 

The smart guys are the ones charging some goofball 5-10K or more to go shoot the darn thing on one of these wink wink 100% kill 130 in or better weekend hunts. It blows my mind that people can actually feel some sort of accomplishment from shooting a half pet deer. You put out the corn. It comes out like a cow and you shoot it. Anyone can do that. No action, no skill involved, no sense of pride from earning the kill??? Thats no fun? I guess it is good for city folks that don't know any better. 
We have killed some really nice whitetails, Mule deer, etc, etc. Get out and hunt. It is way more fun than sitting in a stand and waiting. JMO!


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

Listo said:


> The friendly competition you share with friends and family yearly of who killed the biggest buck is over. Now it all boils down to who has the most money.
> 
> The smart guys are the ones charging some goofball 5-10K or more to go shoot the darn thing on one of these wink wink 100% kill 130 in or better weekend hunts. It blows my mind that people can actually feel some sort of accomplishment from shooting a half pet deer. You put out the corn. It comes out like a cow and you shoot it. Anyone can do that. No action, no skill involved, no sense of pride from earning the kill??? Thats no fun? I guess it is good for city folks that don't know any better.
> We have killed some really nice whitetails, Mule deer, etc, etc. Get out and hunt. It is way more fun than sitting in a stand and waiting. JMO!


yup...but then again, it takes skill to shoot critters with a recurve or long bow, not a rifle or compound.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

1) Financial wise, the smart guy is not the guy who has spent 11 years paying 800 a year in lease fees, thousands in gas, thousands in corn, thousands in stands, feeders, game cams, and months of vacation time. I put a calculator to it last year and I have spent almost 30K dollars and I have a 142" buck on the wall. Therefore, finanacially, I am not the smart guy.

2) Consider yourself lucky. Not everyone can go work on their deer lease all the time and enjoy a lengthy hunting season. Many folks may only get the chance to get out in the woods 2-3 days in an entire year! With kids and all their weekend activities, families, wives, work, bad economy, and the plethora of other events that keep those folks out of the woods, its not very easy to just hop in the truck and head up to the deer lease. And everybody knows that the less time you spend scouting and developing your property, the less chance you have at scoring a "trophy" deer.... or any deer for that matter.

3) I dont know what high fenced properties you have ever been on, but, to be frank, you have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever even been on one? Sure, most properties have their little "house deer", but that is not just a "high fenced thing." 1000 acres is a 1000 acres.... There are deer in East Texas that never even leave a 250 acre patch of unfenced woods in their entire life cycle.

I know everyone on here has their opinions, but all this **** about pet deer and leading them out on a rope and stuff was started by folks out of PURE jealousy.

One could bash all the Hill Country and South Texas hunters cuz of these ridiculous 300 yards shots out of a tower blind and all these corned scendaros.... Cuz to me, the most skillful way to hunt is hanging out of a tree in a creek bottom where you can only see 50 yards basing your position not on corn, but on scrapes and trails... 

High fenced trip make ALOT of sense to ALOT of peoples lifestyles.... Its also a great experience. Its an excellent vacation, as the whole trip is relaxing.... 


PS... I had the same frame of mind you do when I was younger mainly because those surrounding me instilled all those thoughts in my head. When I moved off to college, I ran around with a bunch of biologists and started tagging along on their trips to some of these high fenced properties to do spotlight counts, take soil samples, develop food plots, do camera census projects, etc. It is amazing how much work, sweat, research, time, money and patience is required in developing one of these properties. When you see that level of dedication to a program, 5-10K dollars is a pretty fair deal.


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## cpthook (Jan 16, 2008)

yup...but then again, it takes skill to shoot critters with a recurve or long bow, not a rifle or compound. 

I'd have to disagree it takes almost as much skill with a compound as with a recurve or long bow. You still have to close the distance, unlike a rifle. And if you a a true trophy hunter, no offense and not a meat hunter it's not easy. Any compound bow hunter can easily learn to shoot a recurveor long bow, but why???


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

cpthook said:


> yup...but then again, it takes skill to shoot critters with a recurve or long bow, not a rifle or compound.
> 
> I'd have to disagree it takes almost as much skill with a compound as with a recurve or long bow. You still have to close the distance, unlike a rifle. And if you a a true trophy hunter, no offense and not a meat hunter it's not easy. Any compound bow hunter can easily learn to shoot a recurveor long bow, but why???


no disrespect Cpt my post was more tongue and cheek to kind of lighten the mood a bit. but shooting a compound cannot be compared to shooting longbow or recurve....shooting a compound is like shooting a rifle, yes, you have to close the distance, but with today's compound bows, sights, rests, speed, carbon this and that, etc, effective range is growing, especially for guys that hunt open range mulies and shoot 80 yards with their compounds on a regular basis...

my cousin owns a archery shop here in SA, more than once i've seen someone come in and buy a high end bow, dress it out, my cousin then takes the time to show them how to shoot and proper form....in 1 hour, he has them shooting baseball size groups at 20 and 30 yards....where as recurve and long bow it's all instinctive shooting, no sights to aim down, much like throwing a baseball....i've shot recurve for 12 years and i have to practice every day to make sure i'm hitting my marks, if not, i don't hunt with it. :cheers:


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Austin paper article*

It's sad, so sad, and I just don't get it.
OK, I get part of it, but I still don't understand everything I know about it.
East Texas deer breeder Billy Powell pleaded guilty last week to federal charges that he violated the Lacey Act by bringing at least 37 white-tailed deer into Texas from several other states.
This was no routine guy-poaches-a-deer-in-Colorado-and-gets-caught case. Powell, 77, who has made lots of money in the plant nursery business in Cherokee County, had been the subject of investigation for several years dating back to 2006, and the penalties assessed are significant.
At formal sentencing, the judge is expected to put Powell on three years' probation, the first six months of which would be spent strictly at home wearing an ankle bracelet. He will have to pay a $1 million federal fine and $500,000 to the State of Texas. He also will forfeit illegal animals, their offspring, mounts, cloned deer and semen from those deer.
The value of the forfeitures is nearly $1 million.
All of that for bringing several dozen deer to a 1,000-acre place in Cherokee County.
Here's the part I don't understand: As a licensed deer breeder in Texas, Powell could have bought and sold animals through any of about 1,200 other licensed breeders in the state. There's nothing that prevents that.
Why didn't he do that instead of going out of state and risking the wrath of the federal government? The answer is probably bigger deer, bigger trophies, more money.
People are caught up in the "mine (my deer, I mean) is bigger than yours" thing. They want to show off giant antlers. If nature won't produce bigger trophy animals, breeders will. 
I believe - since Texas says it's legal to keep, breed and sell or release whitetails - that any landowner who meets facility standards ought to be able to breed as many deer as he can. Legally.
However, some breeders believe that the state shouldn't be involved in their personal ventures, and that they shouldn't have to account for where their deer originate or where they wind up after they're sold.
Today, some hunters have little way of knowing if they are hunting native population deer or the offspring of breeder deer, and this has corrupted the entire concept of hunting in Texas.
This is supposed to be fun, a way to teach our kids about the outdoors and a lesson in heritage, not a battle to see who can grow a buck with the most points.
Texas prohibits importing deer for clinical reasons, and those prohibitions affect deer commerce. At the core of the concern is Chronic Wasting Disease, an always fatal brain inflammation that can be passed from one animal to another. The disease, which often infects elk, has been found in a number of states.
When it was discovered in Wisconsin whitetails in 2002, Texas immediately shut down its borders to importation of deer and began a systematic testing program to see if we had CWD here.
Because the original search plan focused only on breeder pens, not wild deer populations, breeders believed - correctly, I think - that the testing was just a back-door attempt to crush their business. To test for CWD, the animal is killed and the brain is examined.
The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department was forced to expand testing to wild deer killed on private land and on state-sponsored hunts at public facilities. Breeders and Parks and Wildlife officials have been locked in a battle of wills since, fighting over everything from where to put tattoos on deer to whether breeders owned the deer or just kept them at the whim of the state.
It's been ugly.
In the 10th year of testing, CWD has not been found in Texas, either in breeder deer or thousands of deer submitted for testing from across the state. Even if we did find the disease, it wouldn't have as much impact on deer as anthrax, a naturally occurring disease that hits hard almost every year.
It would, however, impact breeders, since the state would track down any deer moved or sold from an infected facility, and kill those deer and any deer they would have been in contact with.
The whole thing makes me sad. I don't know where deer hunting is headed, although I have an idea. I don't like it. And I don't get it.
[email protected]


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## Listo (Jun 26, 2010)

osoobsessed said:


> yup...but then again, it takes skill to shoot critters with a recurve or long bow, not a rifle or compound.


No doubt. I killed my first buck by myself with a bow when I was 9. It was the same year my Dad got his big P&Y elk on public land in New Mexico.

As soon as I finish up at this hell hole I am going to see how many hogs I can kill in 3 months with my bow. We have 500 acres on the San Jacinto near Conroe. So far my record is 43 pigs in 3 months with me and a buddy. I am going for 75 this round. LOL!!


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

Listo said:


> No doubt. I killed my first buck by myself with a bow when I was 9. It was the same year my Dad got his big P&Y elk on public land in New Mexico.
> 
> As soon as I finish up at this hell hole I am going to see how many hogs I can kill in 3 months with my bow. We have 500 acres on the San Jacinto near Conroe. So far my record is 43 pigs in 3 months with me and a buddy. I am going for 75 this round. LOL!!


das a lot of bacon!!! 

i wish you the best of luck, of course, i like pictures of piles of pork, bring it!  :cheers:


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## Listo (Jun 26, 2010)

justinsfa said:


> 1) Financial wise, the smart guy is not the guy who has spent 11 years paying 800 a year in lease fees, thousands in gas, thousands in corn, thousands in stands, feeders, game cams, and months of vacation time. I put a calculator to it last year and I have spent almost 30K dollars and I have a 142" buck on the wall. Therefore, finanacially, I am not the smart guy.
> 
> 2) Consider yourself lucky. Not everyone can go work on their deer lease all the time and enjoy a lengthy hunting season. Many folks may only get the chance to get out in the woods 2-3 days in an entire year! With kids and all their weekend activities, families, wives, work, bad economy, and the plethora of other events that keep those folks out of the woods, its not very easy to just hop in the truck and head up to the deer lease. And everybody knows that the less time you spend scouting and developing your property, the less chance you have at scoring a "trophy" deer.... or any deer for that matter.
> 
> ...


Whoa there Hot Rod!! Calm Down.

I was just venting a little. I just wish deer hunting would not have become so comercialized mainly. And it has big time.

You are way off brother. We (My dad, brother, me) have been raising deer in a high fence (with the exception of missing a few years because of poachers cutting fences) since 1980. My Dads friend that has pasted away some years back Roy Hindes from south Texas got him into raising deer back then. My first buck I killed with my bow was in a high fenced ranch (mid-80's) in Carte Valley owned by Lawrence Marshall. (Lawrence Marshall Chevrolet) Most of the deer are wild and it is a ton of fun to shoot the exotics, whitetail etc. My first exotic I killed was on that trip as well. A 21in blackbuck. Cost - 250$. Wish it was still that cheap.

What I was talking about in my previous post was the weekend warrior showing up on friday and leaving on Sat. afternoon with his 130-200 class buck. The point I was trying to get across was. How can you really feel proud of killing your big buck if you did not go out and find the scrapes, trails, rubs, hot does, etc. You show up, sit at a feeder and shoot the poor dumb bastage without doing or learning anything about the sport. I should no. I have done it before and did not get to much from it. We have never shot any of the deer we have raised. But we have released them into low fence areas to improve the genetics in the area after culling inferior bucks and taking several does in the area over time legally. We are not extremely wealthy and we have never sold a deer. It is very educational and I feel extremely lucky to have had the experience I have had.

Personally. I have had way more fun hunting in places that would never produce a 160 class buck. Leases or land close to home where your buddies and you can afford the time and money to actually scout, prepare, and do some real hunting. (Usually way cheaper also) You don't have to use all the latest & greatest food plots, deer feeders, blinds, etc. Get out there and hunt the trails, scrapes, rubs, etc with your hunting buddies and have a good time. Heck. That is what it is all about. Not keeping up with the Jones and seeing who can financially afford to shoot the biggest buck. You can go more often and take your kids, your buddies can afford to do it with you, etc. I know that I am way more proud of a 120 class buck that I actually hunted than I am of a 160 that I shot out of a stand eating corn at 300 yards with a 300win mag & 20 power leopold scope. (My granda could have done that) I am not downing the guys that do because I have done the same lots of times. Maybe I am just getting old and I just don't see the challenge in it. LOL!! :texasflag


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## Listo (Jun 26, 2010)

osoobsessed said:


> das a lot of bacon!!!
> 
> i wish you the best of luck, of course, i like pictures of piles of pork, bring it!  :cheers:


Hopefully I will be out of Baghdad for good in Oct. Shoot me a PM. You bring the beer and steaks and the pig killing will begin. They are thick.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

There's been a lot of good points made here. Me personally, I'm against high fenced hunting, BUT, it is legal in the states eyes so who am I to bash someone for hunting legally? It's just like croaker for specs.
The only reason I would entertain the idea of a lease at all would be for my wife comfort. I hate dragging her out of bed at 4:00 in the am to drive 30 minutes to the lake and then begin our sometimes hour long trip up the river to our chosen location. She's afraid of heights so aclimber is out of the question. It's public land so no feeding (which I totally support), and no permanent stands either. To me, its real hunting, although I have been guilty of placing a game cam from time to time at the risk of it being stolen. 

I gave seen numerous large animals in my current location and would hate for some "businessman" to screw it up with disease so he could make an extra buck with an out of state animal. Kudos to the state and feds for a successful bust.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

And another one..... this one has been in the works for a few years..... some folks in the deer breeding industry may recognize the name.... Shame Shame Shame.




WASHINGTON - A Texas man was sentenced Tuesday in federal court in Wichita on felony charges of conspiracy, wildlife trafficking and obstruction of justice related to the illegal sale of guided deer hunts in southern Kansas, announced Ignacia S. Moreno, Assistant Attorney General for the Justice Department's Environment and Natural Resources Division and Barry Grissom, U.S. Attorney for the District of Kansas. 

James Bobby Butler, Jr., 42, of Martinsville, Tex., was sentenced to 41 months in federal prison, to be followed by three years of supervised release during which Butler will be banned from all hunting and guiding. Butler was also ordered to pay a $25,000 fine to the Lacey Act reward fund, and $25,000 restitution to the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks. Butler pleaded guilty in March 2010 to one count of conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act, one Lacey Act interstate trafficking count and one count of obstruction of justice. His brother, Marlin Jackson Butler, 36, also of Martinsville, pleaded guilty in March 2011 to one count of conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act and one Lacey Act count. Marlin Butler is scheduled to be sentenced on June 24, 2011.

"Thanks to outstanding cooperation between federal and state law enforcement agents and prosecutors, we put an end to a criminal conspiracy that took valuable and limited wildlife resources through unlawful and unethical means," said Assistant Attorney General Moreno. "This prosecution sends a message to hunters and guides in Kansas and elsewhere that there will be serious consequences for those who seek to profit by violating state and federal wildlife laws, especially at the expense of those who hunt and guide lawfully." 

"Illegal wildlife trafficking is a threat to the natural resources of Kansas," Grissom said. "Our goal is to preserve and protect wildlife for everyone to enjoy - including hunters who abide by the law."

The Lacey Act is a federal law that makes it illegal to knowingly transport or sell in interstate commerce any wildlife taken or possessed in violation of state law or regulation.

According to court documents filed in the case, James and Marlin Butler conspired together to knowingly transport and sell in interstate commerce deer that had been hunted in violation of Kansas state law. In particular, the brothers operated a guiding service and hunting camp near Coldwater, Kan., at which they sold guiding services to out-of-state hunters for the purpose of illegally hunting and killing white-tailed deer and mule deer. Hunters guided by the Butler brothers killed deer in excess of annual bag limits, hunted deer without permits or with permits for the wrong deer management unit, killed deer using illegal equipment, and hunted using prohibited methods such as spotlighting. The guided hunts were sold for between $2,500 and $5,500, and in several instances resulted in the killing of trophy-sized buck deer. In addition to selling guiding services, the brothers also arranged for transport of the deer, in particular the antlers and capes, from Kansas to Texas and Louisiana.

James Butler also pleaded guilty to instructing another person to conceal or destroy evidence during the investigation.

"This is the largest case in the history of wildlife law enforcement in Kansas," said Steve Oberholtzer, Special Agent in Charge of the Mountain-Prairie Region, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. "Trophy deer are an important resource for the state of Kansas from both wildlife and economic standpoints. Joint investigations such as this one demonstrate that the combined efforts of state and federal agencies and our federal prosecutors result in prosecutions that hold those who violate the law accountable. We are grateful to the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks and the U.S. Attorney's Office for their assistance in this case and hope that it will serve as a deterrent to others who might consider exploiting our nation's wildlife for personal gain."

The case was investigated by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks and the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, and jointly prosecuted by District of Kansas U.S. Attorney Barry Grissom's office and the Justice Department's Environment and Natural Resources Division, Environmental Crimes Section.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

A pic of all the deer confiscated as evidence in this case....


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## cpthook (Jan 16, 2008)

Can not believe 41 months is all he got. I booked a couple hunts with these guys about 9 or 10 years ago in Kansas. After 2 years I saw the program and opted out. They have been at this for a long time. They had serveral 200 class deer I do not see in this picture. On a ten day hunt I passed a 4 1/5 164 8 pointer, and 3 160 class 10 pointers, all 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 old deer. 5 1/2 half is the youngest I will kill. I found out they got busted a couple years back but didn't know there faith. James has been in and out of the pen, he also has chicken fighting arenas in Lousiana.


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## cpthook (Jan 16, 2008)

Last I heard James was working for a deer breeder in east texas. That was about 2 years ago.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

If you look earlier in this thread, this is one of the cases I was referring too.... Seems like it had been lost in the shuffle from a few years ago when they got busted, but randomly the sentencing fell into place last week.

There are a few big name East Texas operations involved ("""rumored""", per say) with this.... including some BIG NAME pedigree deer.

I do know that they were confiscating any mounts even remotely connected to these guys from locals up in East Texas.

Word travelled fast through the wildlife biology community, as my inbox has been getting flooded with news of these sentencing...


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## cpthook (Jan 16, 2008)

Did you hear what Marlin's sentence was?? Will James serve all 41 months in Federal prison or how does that work??


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

How about these guys, www.highrollerwhitetails.com, looked like a pretty nice operation on tv---then again it was on Alan " The Stalker " Warren's show. rs


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

cpthook said:


> Did you hear what Marlin's sentence was?? Will James serve all 41 months in Federal prison or how does that work??


I believe the other has been convicted, but is waiting on sentencing... I dont think this is the first rodeo for one of the guys, so Im not sure if good behavior is going to help at getting out any earlier.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Rusty S said:


> How about these guys, www.highrollerwhitetails.com, looked like a pretty nice operation on tv---then again it was on Alan " The Stalker " Warren's show. rs


I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that a few of the big deer operations in the area are part owners of some of the same breeder bucks, which would put them all in the same boat...

Click on the link and look at the bottom right of the main page of who the operators are and reference to article above....

Never met any of the Butlers, but Terry has one of my lab pups.... Of course, that was 10 years ago....


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