# Cull bucks....trophy bucks



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

cull bucks....dont exist....thats my thoughts. Based on way way too many studies of guys on intensily managed ranches for over 20 years they saw so little difference that they could actually attribute to culling practices. they saw more difference in annual weather conditions ( a hot/cold year, a wet/dry year) that would have meant most of their deer would have been shot in a poor year and written off as "cull". When in fact those bucks would have bounced back the very next year. Seen too many studies where first and even second year spike bucks were the same inches in their sixth+ year as first year 10 pointers.....literally no trophy antler advantage of first year spikes vs first year 10 pointers in their 6th or 7th year....

dont have to agree...just voicing my opinion. unless you have 100% control and inventory over your piece of property for over a decade shooting what would be a cull buck is not going to change squat. it will however be harder to get a 1:1 buck/doe ratio....which is what you want. 

and while I have mentioned does....and for you disagreers...how do you cull out the doe that made those cull bucks?????????? splains me that....

Most inferior antlers can be way way better explained by harsh conditions, injury, etc. But quite pretentious to believe you can actually affect the gene pool....laughable. If you have a high fence ranch i dare ya to let the spike walk and see how he is in five or six years. I bet one of your kids would have the buck of a lifetime!

I have read most of Dr. Kroll's stuff as well as many many others of actual studies on numerous participating ranches. Cull is just a bunch of bull pukey....flame suit on yall flame away....the rest of yall shoot whatever you want. im culling does....if an antlered deer makes me mad and looks at me wrong he is getting culled too.

and for those of yall that are gonna say "oh then why did tx go to antler restriction".....do get closer to a healthy buck to doe ratio is the answer...help them!!! shoot the does. Probably hard to shoot too many does honestly unless you have extreme situations or already a good ratio.

look at the states with the best trophys. their regs are better for that trophy status and hardly have any high fence ranches. thats wisconsin, illinois, iowa, ohio (1,2,3,4 in trophy bucks). Tx is number 9 btw.....no cull practicing there just good ole hunting!! mostly bow helps and only one trophy helps etc....the regs work better. the culture of hunting is viewed way different in those states than here...

thanks for reading....i love this stuff.


----------



## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Agree 100% there was a study done in 2 pastures on the King Ranch yrs back with the same results as you described. The word cull along with management buck came about when the pay by the inch started, I first heard the word doing some work for the Marbugers(sp) ranch in the late 80s....WW


----------



## PortATrout (Aug 15, 2005)

We manage numbers and buck doe ratio at our ranch and I like about 1.3 does per buck. In doing this we try to take the lesser quality bucks in that age bracket. Not sure our way is right but we have big deer.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Here we go, I want the popcorn concession. 

We shoot all the 3 year old 8's we see and been doing it for years. Seeing lot less 8's and plenty more 10's.And no, we dont shoot spikes especially after the dry year we just had. That is something out of the past but seems that theory is changing..


----------



## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

There are cull bucks. The reason some of these places don't see a difference is because they wait until the "cull" is 5 years old. What is the point o culling if you let it live that long?


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

When looking at what makes big trophy bucks, number one factor is age....number two factor is nutrition and a far away distance third would be genetics.....for most of us managing our hunt practices to optimize deer age and nutrition is doable.....managing for genetics is impractical in 99% of ranches out there cuz. Think about this in the reverse....we are all chasing those big trophy bucks so the superior bucks w the biggest antlers are shot asap.....and we have now taken that out...whats left? Well whatever he was able to pass on which are the same bucks around that we call culls. Cull bucks to improve your herd just doesnt exist. Shoot em up i dont care one or another but you will never convince me that you are able to affect the trophy potential by taking the culls out. Just very very intense to manage to that level and beyond possible for every ranch and every lease i have ever been on. The lead buck w the best genetics is shot first chance.....the "culls" will be full on trophys if they make it to their age potential. I just think the word cull should be left to describe managing the numbers or the injured. You simply cannot manage for trophys by culling antlers. You are hurting ur deer opportunities if you believe otherwise.


----------



## lone wolf (Oct 2, 2011)

go to kings ranch and see the study report on spikes by texas am and dr.hellichson he reported 11 out of 14 spikes never gained over 110 inch,s of horns afte they matured and the other 4 never got over 130 inchs of horns and reports they are inferior. and agree why wait till 5 years old to harvest a cull you want to do your culling before they get a chance to pass on their gene,s and agree with what was already said it is hard t do almost impossible. look at the callahan ranch unless they changed therules in last 2 years every spike was shot , but again this debate will never end.


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

CHARLIE said:


> Here we go, I want the popcorn concession.
> 
> We shoot all the 3 year old 8's we see and been doing it for years. Seeing lot less 8's and plenty more 10's.And no, we dont shoot spikes especially after the dry year we just had. That is something out of the past but seems that theory is changing..


Aging is a whole other thing and very hard to do. Its doable for the very experienced but is every one on ur lease that experienced? Not pointing fingers just saying. I shot a pope and young years back that we all guessed he was about 5-7 years old based on body. I shot him cuz he was obviously blind in one eye. His teeth aged him at about 3.5.....except bingo ranch manager had pictures of the same blind deer for 8 different antler years....so he was at least 9.5-11.5.....just relaying real world experience...aging not easy to do unless you have pics from kindergarten on up....and when the right deer shows up i usually dont have time to age and run a tape.....if he is right for you take him.....if you arent shaking when aiming at him then let him walk and shoot does.


----------



## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

The other states you mentioned don't have the deer population of Texas and there deer are bigger mostly because of the quality of there groceries... grain fields. Also, I have been hunting the same ranch for 31 years... I have a little experience. Age does not cure poor genetics. I have killed 6 year old forkies with close to 20" spreads on our place. It took us 5 years to clean them out.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Sorry but those big ole northern whitetails and not the same whitetail that exist in Texas. Guess what, when they bring them down here they are still big and dont shrink because of the groceries they eat. Different species of whitetail..


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Haute Pursuit said:


> The other states you mentioned don't have the deer population of Texas and there deer are bigger mostly because of the quality of there groceries... grain fields. Also, I have been hunting the same ranch for 31 years... I have a little experience. Age does not cure poor genetics. I have killed 6 year old forkies with close to 20" spreads on our place. It took us 5 years to clean them out.


That is tremendous experience. and always super interesting to see a ranch come around.....not trying to shoot holes in peoples experience just super interesting to think about things most people dont think about.

you say it took you years to clean them out? so where did the "new" genetics come from on the same ranch? had to be neighboring bucks that were there all along.....bucks traveling etc.....and likely you made your ranch more attractive for the older bucks to stay. but the genes couldnt have changed just by killing what is already there....if there is no food, no does, or too much pressure those big smart herd bulls wont stay and you will see the smaller inferior bucks. most of the time we improve conditions for those bigger bucks to stay but the genes are alllllllll around your property......something to think about.


----------



## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

They won't shrink. I never said that. They are slightly genetically different but they are products of where they live.


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

CHARLIE said:


> Sorry but those big ole northern whitetails and not the same whitetail that exist in Texas. Guess what, when they bring them down here they are still big and dont shrink because of the groceries they eat. Different species of whitetail..


exactamundo....and then we shoot the big ones and takes those genes out.


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

of course South TX has been the trophy focal area for texas forever but it has been theorized that east texas has the potential to grow bigger deer because of the nutrition but the PRESSURE wont let them age. same theory as culling.....east texas shoot too many bucks (mostly "culls" on other ranches) and they not growing old....south texas bucks not shooting quite so many and the thicker cover they grow old.....makes sense.


----------



## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

sgrem said:


> That is tremendous experience. and always super interesting to see a ranch come around.....not trying to shoot holes in peoples experience just super interesting to think about things most people dont think about.
> 
> you say it took you years to clean them out? so where did the "new" genetics come from on the same ranch? had to be neighboring bucks that were there all along.....bucks traveling etc.....and likely you made your ranch more attractive for the older bucks to stay. but the genes couldnt have changed just by killing what is already there....if there is no food, no does, or too much pressure those big smart herd bulls wont stay and you will see the smaller inferior bucks. most of the time we improve conditions for those bigger bucks to stay but the genes are alllllllll around your property......something to think about.


The genetics on our place is constantly changing because we are low fenced. Also, as you mentioned, the does have alot to do with it. We had at one time around a half a dozen big mature forked horn deer and twice as many immature ones. We culled them and it took us 5 years to get most of them. It was definately a genetic thing. We may see one or two a year now but none of the wide frame mature ones. We also, except for this year because of the drought, cull 3yr plus deer with no brow tines. That was something else we used to see regularly.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

sixes (old) make sixes 8's make eights and so on. Get em out of the pool and yes the genetics change they are not there any more..And yes some ranches make you wait until after the rut to take the trophy's in order to pass the good gene's on. Its different strokes for different folks.. And as Haute Persuit mentioned, be very careful this year because of the dry season it has changed antler development a bunch.. 

And another thing I havent pulled the trigger yet still looking this year..


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Haute Pursuit said:


> They won't shrink. I never said that. They are slightly genetically different but they are products of where they live.


i think they are more products of that hunting culture....how they hunt up that way. think about it....most can only kill one buck .... period....

its not the cover cuz if is literally opposite of south texas....imagine the thick thick brush is wide open crop fields and the scendaros are strips of cover....so you sit in the cover and they have to run by you....never do they shoot a cull....they just let em grow giant. essentially no high fences and the giants are killed all over.....i bet most up in the states i mentioned have never heard of or considered using their one tag on a cull buck....they just waiting for that big one they saw.

high fence ranch in texas with the same groceries put in a trough and grow that big deer too.....OR manage the deer herd numbers (would eventually include bucks and does) for proper herd density per acreage the food can support and presto no more culls exist.

you can take the largest buck on the planet and breed him to a stressed sick doe and likely that buck will be weak for years....but eventually will get to his full potential just like the rest of the bucks maybe a year or two behind your best buck born at the same time.

something to think about yall....arguments always both ways....but i for one do not like the way the hunt culture is going. have seen it both ways....one leads to commeraderie and lifelong respect and invites and stories shared....the other leads to commercialization of deer shooting and getting kicked off your place cuz after you did all the work and now have good bucks they double the price and getting priced out of the game for the common guy.

with all the money we spend on gas and corn and time away from work chasing the buck of a lifetime on our ranch we could essentially buy that buck every year on a super comfy hunt....but what have you gained? i can easily afford that lifestyle and that kind of experience. not jealous or condoning one bit. just scared for our pastime yall.

when i have hunted public land in those other states mentioned saw innumerable giants. my first year hunting up there i got invited on a family farm. i "mentioned" hey let me lease it (was hoping to sweeten the pot and simly guarantee my spot). big mistake....BIG MISTAKE....i was told in no uncertain terms if i was to talk like that again and i would not be invited back and that i was there because they appreciated and respected pals and wanted me included in their family. that is the culture i think we have lost with big money, trophys, and culls. business is business and i am glad some land owners are able to capitalize to do what they need to do. my preference is just a little different and im terrified to lose that. and yes i support all yalls means and methods. to each their own.


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Haute Pursuit said:


> The genetics on our place is constantly changing because we are low fenced. Also, as you mentioned, the does have alot to do with it. We had at one time around a half a dozen big mature forked horn deer and twice as many immature ones. We culled them and it took us 5 years to get most of them. It was definately a genetic thing. We may see one or two a year now but none of the wide frame mature ones. We also, except for this year because of the drought, cull 3yr plus deer with no brow tines. That was something else we used to see regularly.


The studies spoke of this exactly!!!! that those younger bucks without brow tines would have no measurable difference, that is, the same level of antler development at 5-7 years old!!!!!!! let em walk man....culling is misguided....it is almost always due to other factors.

Did yall improve the feed available? maybe fewer deer total but higher quality? protein feed? less pressure? shoot more coyotes? shoot more hogs? get rid of the cows? these things have a larger impact and those "3" year old bucks will get there if they live to 6 and will not be able to tell a difference.


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

reducing overall numbers to healthy levels creates that natural selection. nothing else will.....the mature bucks will cull out the young guns in the pecking order and do the natural selection for you.....and your whole herd will improve....never due to culling. cull bucks dont exist.


----------



## 10ERBETTER (Feb 24, 2008)

*Cull Bucks*



sgrem said:


> i think they are more products of that hunting culture....how they hunt up that way. think about it....most can only kill one buck .... period....
> 
> its not the cover cuz if is literally opposite of south texas....imagine the thick thick brush is wide open crop fields and the scendaros are strips of cover....so you sit in the cover and they have to run by you....never do they shoot a cull....they just let em grow giant. essentially no high fences and the giants are killed all over.....i bet most up in the states i mentioned have never heard of or considered using their one tag on a cull buck....they just waiting for that big one they saw.
> 
> ...


So you read a magazine article that you took to heart. First of all, I would like to see some references made to the publications that you are plagiarizing from. Without them it looks like you are trying to make us think you came up with all these ideas on your own. Secondly, move to Wisconsin and hunt with the Cheeseheads. Its nice up there this time of year. We won't miss you down here. We have plenty of yearling spikes and 9 y/o 8pts to kill.


----------



## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

It seems that the does are responsible for 50% of genetics; how do you tell a great doe from a inferior one? Your point of letting the so-called cull bucks live 5 or 6 years before shooting them makes sense; by then they have bred a lot. However, if after a great spring and summer with a lot of rain and great range conditions, would it help to shoot the inferior looking young bucks? A hundred acres can only support so many pounds of deer, which can be more small deer or fewer bigger deer.


----------



## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Our experience is different than the study you mention. We have shot many 5 and 6 year old cull bucks. You mentioned the northern bucks and them not shooting culls... None of those states has the deer density we do where I hunt. Overpoulation is a big factor in the hill country. Because we have an abundance of water, it is nothing to see 50 deer in one hunt in our river pasture. Mostly all immature deer though.


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Haute Pursuit said:


> Our experience is different than the study you mention. We have shot many 5 and 6 year old cull bucks. You mentioned the northern bucks and them not shooting culls... None of those states has the deer density we do where I hunt. Overpoulation is a big factor in the hill country. Because we have an abundance of water, it is nothing to see 50 deer in one hunt in our river pasture. Mostly all immature deer though.


man you are right on the money!!!!!!!!! spot on....

manage that deer density and mother natures natural selection will improve the hunting experience. it works 100% of the time.


----------



## Tommy2000 (Mar 23, 2008)

sgrem said:


> reducing overall numbers to healthy levels creates that natural selection. nothing else will.....the mature bucks will cull out the young guns in the pecking order and do the natural selection for you.....and your whole herd will improve....never due to culling. cull bucks dont exist.


Agree. By keeping your doe to buck ratio to about 1 to 1, your larger bucks will force the smaller bucks away from the does when breeding season comes 'round. When you shoot a "trophy" buck, you should reduce the numbers of your does as well to keep the ratio in line.


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

10ERBETTER said:


> So you read a magazine article that you took to heart. First of all, I would like to see some references made to the publications that you are plagiarizing from. Without them it looks like you are trying to make us think you came up with all these ideas on your own. Secondly, move to Wisconsin and hunt with the Cheeseheads. Its nice up there this time of year. We won't miss you down here. We have plenty of yearling spikes and 9 y/o 8pts to kill.


most of these ideas are mine....the study just made me open my mind from intense management (high high dollar) to mother nature and getting back to reality. and open interesting discussion and hunt theory.

you can hunt with me anytime pal.....seems a little open minded discussion and sharing is what this place is about. these are just my thoughts in considering a different management theory.

i have killed 7 bucks in my lifetime. 2 are pope and young (157 and 128). next biggest are two 135" or so that are rifle kills. then my first buck ever was a not huge and my first bow buck ever was not huge. then shot another in high school. I have passed more 150's than most people will ever see waiting for a giant as many as 8 or so in one morning hunt! yes that was in illinois. i was hunting a 180" and didnt want to use my only tag on all those little "culls" :wink: just saying i practice what i preach not shooting a lot of bucks. spent many years maxing out my tags on does. as many as 9 or so in one year (licensed and hunting several states)....so for those of yall good at math that is more does in one year than all the bucks in my whole life. that is not the KILLING attitude many hunters have and i have nothing against how or where you hunt or what you kill....just that pretty hard to compete with mother nature in the area of natural selection. if you need to cull you have something else going on besides genetics.

AND FOR THAT REFERENCE::::::::::::******* do a search for "Can We Cull Bucks" by Dr. James Kroll.....i guess i changed my thinking about 10-12 years ago....(thinking back to my first pope and young and certainly before this article).....went public land right after killed that buck then learned a ton when i started hunting other states about 7-8 years ago....and it all made sense.


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/2010/09/22/deermanagement_naw_cull_1206/

this is part 3 of the study....i would suggest reading more of similar articles....


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Someone describe what yall think would be a cull or management buck..


----------



## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

CHARLIE said:


> Someone describe what yall think would be a cull or management buck..


OkAY, I'll attempt it. A cull buck is a buck possessing inferior genetics that does not fit into the management plans of your deer herd and a management buck is a buck possessing inferior genetics that does not fit into the management plans of your deer herd. Hope this helps.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Thanks Danny did I see a repeat there ?? Good hunting


----------



## Cincolomas (Oct 21, 2010)

Sgrem....sounds like you have it all figured out. After owning and managing a S. Texas ranch for 20 years, I can tell you there are no hard and fast rules to deer management. Some of your ideas are correct, unfortunately some of them are quite naive. No offense but, if it were so simple someone would have written a book and gotten rich a long time ago. 
Let me point out one little flaw in you view.....you say there are no cull bucks and then turn around and argue that spikes are inferior (culls). Which is it?
20 years ago when we bought our ranch we had one 10 pt. buck....all others were 8's and 9's. After years of management we have harvested multiple bucks over 170 and a 212" buck in '05. Guess culling had something to do with that, huh?
You are correct in saying that you can't "cull" a ranch....kinda. You cannot completely rid a herd of undesireable genetics. That is true but, you can certainly skew it one way or another. You are also correct in keeping your numbers in check so that natural browse is sufficient for the herd. 
There are many "theories" amongst deer managers. I still remain open minded to other "experienced" deer managers and what they are trying or seeing. Honestly though, reading studies doesn't hold much weight. Biologist need something to do and they do alot of studies.....that is what makes them relevant. I have read articles also....lots of them. Even read articles by the same biologist that completely contradicted articles written by fellow biologists. 
Here are a few of the guidlines that I use.......if anyone is interested.
1. Average or above average rainfall years....we shoot all spikes. Below avg., we shoot none! They could have been a 4 pt. with more nutrition.
2. Attempt to shoot "culls" before rut starts.
3. Attempt to shoot does before rut starts.
4. Let trophy quality bucks live until 7 y.o.
5. Keep numbers within carrying capacity.

Yes, after 20 years, we still have inferior (cull) bucks. So yes, you can't cull a ranch but, you sure can improve the average quality of your bucks.
Also, I will point out that I agree that age, nutrition and genetics are the 3 keys to growing big bucks. But, you are incorrect in putting genetics last.....if a buck doesn't have the genetics to grow large antlers, age and nutrition doesn't matter!!

I think these forums are great for sharing ideas and experience. Not a place to pronounce to the world that you know for a fact all things "whitetail."


----------



## pacontender (Jun 26, 2004)

You would have some credibility if you had a bunch of really big deer. I guess since you have hunted a 180 that makes you an expert. Some of the ideas are sound. Yes age, health and nutrition are critical. Sorry, if a buck doesn't have the genetics to grow big, he won't no matter how old or how much nutrition he gets.


----------



## Clint Leopold (Mar 7, 2006)

sgrem said:


> The studies spoke of this exactly!!!! that those *younger bucks without brow tines would have no measurable difference, that is, the same level of antler development at 5-7 years old*!!!!!!! let em walk man....culling is misguided....it is almost always due to other factors.
> 
> *Did yall improve the feed available? maybe fewer deer total but higher quality? protein feed? less pressure? shoot more coyotes? shoot more hogs? get rid of the cows?* these things have a larger impact and those "3" year old bucks will get there if they live to 6 and will not be able to tell a difference.


So you're saying that if a certain deer hasn't had brow tines for years and you implement the above things (protein, less pressure, remove hogs...cows) that deer will begin to grow brow tines?


----------



## texasbagman (Oct 1, 2007)

I'm pretty sure that my memory isn't so bad that I am mis-remembering, but Dr. Kroll was the one who did the definitive studies back in the '70's that told us that a spike was never going to have the potential that a forked horn buck of the same age would have. So the state stopped protecting spikes, yes it was illegal to shoot spikes back then, and we stopped seeing so many 2.5-3.5 year old spikes. Of course, this study was done before a lot of the supplemental feeding programs were in place.

As to the larger deer up north, that is an adaptation to the average temp. Bergmann's Rule I think it is called. They are all the same species.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Dr. Kroll's studies have been contradicted many times since then many biologist are changing their tune. Things change from year to year so putting something in concrete sometimes is a mistake. Again, I will state God takes care of the body first and then the antlers. I do have a set of antlers that came from a pen raised deer that started as a spike and at 5 years was a 170. I know this was pen raised and plenty of feed. But as cattle ranchers do so do the deer ranchers. Keep the good and get rid of the bad. Best I recall its 40 % doe and 60 % buck. So your odds are a bit better manageing the bucks you just caint tell with the doe. Yall continue on its fun reading.. I dont really know but I do believe the big ole northern deer are a different species of whitetail and its not on what they eat. Here in Texas they feed deer every day but they dont get to be over 300 pounds.

I just noticed another post on this board advertising management bucks 8 points for $1500 bucks for two day hunting trip. How in the heck can they do that if there are no such thing as management deer. Ha


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

i am by no means an expert. have not had the chance to hunt or to grow or to manage lands like that....just great experience with how i think most of the readers here do hunt. which is what i would call the average hunt. some of yall have to admit your hunting opportunities and the area you hunt are vastly improved over most other areas....thats why you hunt there right? public land and average places is mostly what i am used to and describing here. there are always extremes....and the ranches and experience yall describe sounds like yall have gone to great lengths to improve those ranches successfully. that would be a dream come true to be able to have that opportunity as it would be the ultimate hunting project on a cool piece of property like that!! just awesome and very cool to have that ongoing success!!

it does take that level of intense management and control to keep the numbers down, quality of feed up, and specific harvesting.

and yes if deer dont have those genetics then they will never grow past 170 or whatever your number is. BUT i do believe that all deer CAN grow to what would be wall hanger status for most hunters if they are allowed to walk and not shot at a time when they are throw these antlers in the pile status. if you have giants walking around no doubt you and your buddies have earned that level of trophy opportunity!!! 

my point is that for on many ranches and leases with a dozen hunters and guests, unless EVERYONE for miles around you is doing the same type of management, then you are likely hurting your own specific ranches opportunities by cherry picking out the lesser bucks before they get to a point you would hang them on the wall. hunt for meat and shoot whatever legal deer you want....i get that and big proponent of that....but i think the word management buck and cull buck is for the most part misguided as guys thinking they are gonna make a huge impact for shooting those deer. it must be a pretty intense mission by you and every one on your lease and all your neighbors and their neighbors with the same goal to make a dent. that is simply beyond realistic for most of the folks out there hunting normal ranches. big ranches you have hunted for decades....is always going to be the extreme...and likely you have improved way more than culling....culling is likely pretty far down on your list of important management duties on those ranches.

northern deer are absolutely different......people are too LOL....generally speaking the colder the climate they are born in the larger they will grow. again natural selection weeding out the smaller more feeble animals that wont survive that area. and i am no expert.....the respective wildlife authorities put the regulations in place for what works for the region.... WELL ***!!!! is texas THAT similar from north to south to east to west????? NO WAY. yes there are special counties that have tags appointed to them but hopefully yall see the bigger picture there. and it obviously does work thats why specific ranches put specific rules for what and how many you can kill over and above what your license says....or why we go after managed lands extra permits....to get those numbers etc in check. 

anyway great points guys. love the discussion.


----------



## Icetrey (Oct 8, 2007)

That is Bergmanns rule. Its kinda hard to compare deer up north to deer around here (TX) their lives are so much different, they have completely different weather, no hot summer like here and alot colder. So naturally i would think they would have to bulk up more, just simple biology. Numbers also arent quite there like the amount of deer we have here; theres just so many deer all over the state (not being literal so nobody try to say anything). Its overall just a different ballgame between here and there. With so many people hunting around here, lots of nice bucks are taken. And with the huge amount of deer around, when a populations dominant and genetically superior buck(s) are killed, then the other deer breed and take over, creating more and more inferior deer. Of course this can be somewhat prevented and such by shooting these other bucks(culling). But its not that easy, cant just go around killing everything that looks small. But with someone who has experience with ageing deer and can tell a younger small buckt from an older small buck that wont really reach what you'd like to see, I cant see how it wouldnt help. I would think the biggest thing is that its a numbers game. Right? 

And I'm pretty sure genetics has ALOT more to do with it than you're giving credit for, after all thats what decides what animals are actually capable of becoming.


----------



## Rubberback (Sep 9, 2008)

Icetrey said:


> That is Bergmanns rule. Its kinda hard to compare deer up north to deer around here (TX) their lives are so much different, they have completely different weather, no hot summer like here and alot colder. So naturally i would think they would have to bulk up more, just simple biology. Numbers also arent quite there like the amount of deer we have here; theres just so many deer all over the state (not being literal so nobody try to say anything). Its overall just a different ballgame between here and there. With so many people hunting around here, lots of nice bucks are taken. And with the huge amount of deer around, when a populations dominant and genetically superior buck(s) are killed, then the other deer breed and take over, creating more and more inferior deer. Of course this can be somewhat prevented and such by shooting these other bucks(culling). But its not that easy, cant just go around killing everything that looks small. But with someone who has experience with ageing deer and can tell a younger small buckt from an older small buck that wont really reach what you'd like to see, I cant see how it wouldnt help. I would think the biggest thing is that its a numbers game. Right?
> 
> And I'm pretty sure genetics has ALOT more to do with it than you're giving credit for, after all thats what decides what animals are actually capable of becoming.


 It's genetics & then giving them the right amount of protein. I raise birds & you get the right genes & feed them right you will get bigger birds. Big rooster makes big hens.


----------



## 3chucks (Feb 5, 2010)

this whole discussion is skewed toward letting deer get big by letting them grow. Ive lived in wisconson,new york,montana,washington state and a few others. The deer there are bigger period. In wis. the southern half is restricted to shotgun, muzzle loader and bow. The deer get old that way and there are not as many deer except around the citys.


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

[quote1. Average or above average rainfall years....we shoot all spikes. Below avg., we shoot none! They could have been a 4 pt. with more nutrition.
2. Attempt to shoot "culls" before rut starts.
3. Attempt to shoot does before rut starts.
4. Let trophy quality bucks live until 7 y.o.
5. Keep numbers within carrying capacity.][/quote]

Exactly right. Worked for some of the primo ranches in South Texas and works for me on my small place as it does for all of my neighbors.

Yes there are cull bucks, yes culling inferior deer that have a specific genetic trait that you want out of your herd and taking the number of doe that your biologist recommends has good results. Works for us.

Merry Christmas everyone.

TH


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

when those inferior bucks are culled....where do the magical new genes come from?

if those inferior bucks are allowed to walk they WILL be a trophy for someone.....*all the genes you are going to get are* *already there* unless you trailer in deer or buy little bottles of deer babies ordered out of a catalogue.

if you are managing for super bucks i understand your mission......but most of us are not on a place long enough to make a difference or not on a place with that level of control on our place or on our neighbors place....so instead of taking out a deer you dont give a poop about.....invite someone to which that resource is a trophy and let him walk until then...he will be a trophy when he gets older.


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Rubberback said:


> It's genetics & then giving them the right amount of protein. I raise birds & you get the right genes & feed them right you will get bigger birds. Big rooster makes big hens.


raised and fed birds you surgically place in pens to breed specifcally are not wild animals. that is something you CAN control....wild animals that travel 10 square miles you cannot have an effect like that.


----------



## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

sgrem said:


> when those inferior bucks are culled....where do the magical new genes come from?


I believe the point is remove them from the gene pool entirely so that the genetics of the herd as a whole is not continuously dragged down... If the inferior genetics are removed, they are not replicating... and the does will be bred by the remaining bucks (which hopefully have more desirable genetic traits thus raising the overall quality of the herd). Hence the definition of the word 'cull':



> *CULL: *the process of removing animals from a group based on specific criteria. This is done either to reinforce certain desirable characteristics or to remove certain undesirable characteristics from the group.


:headknock


----------



## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

sounds like you have it all figured out. I guess some of the folks I've had the chance to listen to talk about what it takes to get big deer had no idea what they were talking about when they culled bucks off their ranches....


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

sgrem

Where do they come from ?? What the heck they are already there you get rid of the inferior deer and allow the better deer to live thats life..


----------



## muzzleloader (May 21, 2004)

I live in Lavaca county. We have some good deer and a lot of small/little deer. When I moved here in the early '70's I used to love to listen to the old timers talk about hunting deer. Back in the '30's and 40's most of the old timers lived off the land, gardens, fishing in the river and killing game( squirrels, deer, etc). I was told on more than one occasion that the deer numbers during that time were a small fraction of what it is today. The old timers did not recognize seasons or fences. If a neighbor saw a deer track he would ride over to his nearest neighbor, get the dogs and they would go kill that deer ! All of the deer we have today came from a relatively few deer that managed to survive the depression of the '30' and 40's when people lived off the land. I, personally, believe that the genetics took such a hit during this time it has resulted in the small deer we have here today. The deer we have today came from that small handful of deer that were left. I do not believe it when the biologists tell me that deer cannot or are not inbred. My opinion.


----------



## Swampus (Sep 1, 2005)

I will jump in the fire..................

Case in point:

I have been active for over 20 yrs at the ranch--high fence I know.

I take alot of pic's of every buck from baby on up--save them and compare each year--If they don't get shot. (My family does not shoot the WT)
Study their racks and watch them grow for the next year and know "who" they are.

We had a fork horn smooth buck one year--watched him for the last 8yrs with the same but bigger fork rack.
Now see about 5 bucks cut from the same cloth--No One wants to shoot them for a trophy and thus reproduce inferior offspring every year.
Captain Original Forky is now 9yrs old--same rack--heavy as snot--with Kikkers off each beam--still an inferior buck spreading inferior offspring. A young Buck will breed more does than an old buck every year.

Moral of the story--

Take and save pic's of your herd--see the potential or lack of it and there my friends you have your "Culls".

The does account for about 50% of genetics so your job is never really done as HP has stated it takes years to get the job done and everyone on your ranch has got to have the same vision of management or it will never work.

Good Luck to all!

swamp


----------



## Rubberback (Sep 9, 2008)

CHARLIE said:


> sgrem
> 
> Where do they come from ?? What the heck they are already there you get rid of the inferior deer and allow the better deer to live thats life..


Yup!!


----------



## Rubberback (Sep 9, 2008)

sgrem said:


> raised and fed birds you surgically place in pens to breed specifcally are not wild animals. that is something you CAN control....wild animals that travel 10 square miles you cannot have an effect like that.


They do it everyday the pens just bigger.


----------



## Spec-Rig.006 (Nov 2, 2007)

Your opinion means every thing to the world wide web. Thank you for posting ... and for the vocabulary lesson - I forgot we're all in the second grade.


----------



## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

CHARLIE said:


> Here we go, I want the popcorn concession.
> 
> We shoot all the 3 year old 8's we see and been doing it for years. Seeing lot less 8's and plenty more 10's.And no, we dont shoot spikes especially after the dry year we just had. That is something out of the past but seems that theory is changing..


 This is the only plan that I have seen make a positive difference. Not many people know this! That dang Charlie must know his deer hunting!!!!


----------



## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

CHARLIE said:


> Sorry but those big ole northern whitetails and not the same whitetail that exist in Texas. Guess what, when they bring them down here they are still big and dont shrink because of the groceries they eat. Different species of whitetail..


 I use the actual trophy score. Total inches devided by dressed wieght. Over 1.0 is a good one!


----------



## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Pic #1 Cull ... Pic # 2 Trophy ... Pic # 3 Cull :headknock... Pic # 4 Trophy :work:... Pic # 5 Cull Going Away :walkingsm... Pic # 6 Trophy Going Away :dance:... Pic # 7 heck I don't know :question:.... Brett


----------



## Swampus (Sep 1, 2005)

It is purdy dang clear when U put it that way Brett! 
You guys have some of the best Bucks I have ever seen on a whole basis!--Just amazing to say the least!

Hats off to solid management!!


----------



## uncle dave (Jul 27, 2008)

I'm confused.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Well I like what Brett did so here's mine

cull or management on the right and gonna be trophys on the left


----------



## Blue_Wave028 (Jul 23, 2008)

Culling serves more than removing inferior genetics. Culling serves as a population control to keep your buck:doe ratio right, it removes sorry genes and most importantly keeps a 6 1/2 year old 136" 8 pt from beating down a 150" 3 1/2 year old 10 pt with long g4s.


----------



## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Swampus said:


> It is purdy dang clear when U put it that way Brett!
> You guys have some of the best Bucks I have ever seen on a whole basis!--Just amazing to say the least!
> 
> Hats off to solid management!!


 thank you my brother we have worked hard to get it to what it is now.... Just getting out of the stand now watched a nice buck bread a doe today .... Brett


----------



## buckbuddy (Sep 1, 2008)

Swampus said:


> It is purdy dang clear when U put it that way Brett!
> You guys have some of the best Bucks I have ever seen on a whole basis!--Just amazing to say the least!
> 
> Hats off to solid management!!


*X2....Brett & his crew, are doing it, Right!!.......Mark*


----------



## Tommy2000 (Mar 23, 2008)

Darn! I got all cull's mounted on my walls, 'cept one.


----------



## krs (Mar 15, 2007)

Found this while looking at another site. Good point on letting them age! 
Buck's beams measured 20 1/8 and 20 even
with a 17 3/4 inside spread. I can't remember
ever seeing a spike quite like this one.
Aged in at 8 1/2 plus and field dressed a 
whopping 98 lbs.


----------



## Jbs8307 (Jun 29, 2009)

You can never get rid of certain genetics. You can only suppress them by culling the undesirable traits in bucks and letting the ones with the more desirable traits reach full maturity. The minute you stop culling, those genes you thought were gone will start showing themselves again. Imo you should cull at 3.5. why take the chance to let them breed another 2 or 3 years for the chance that a few of them might become trophies? Its a numbers game. At 3.5 you have a decent idea of thier basic horn structure and if its not what your ranch is looking for then shoot. 

I am completely against shooting any 1.5 year old spikes. There are just too many studies to contradict the old way of thinking. Any spike over that is fair game in my book. 

There will always be the element you cant control and thats what the does are carrying. After so many years of removing less desirable traits (in bucks) and culling does properly you will see a noticable change in antlers with or without a highfence. I have seen it personally on our low fence lease in east texas. Its taken 16 years but our place is night and day different from how it used to be and we are only on just under 3000 acres. A 130 used to be a monster with 10 points being rare. Now ten points are seen frequently and we have killed a couple deer in the 160s. I personally have seen at least 5 deer this year alone that were 130 or better.


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> I am completely against shooting any 1.5 year old spikes. There are just too many studies to contradict the old way of thinking. Any spike over that is fair game in my book.


Blah, no matter what "study" you read the premise is the same; a 1.5 year old under normal developmental circumstances that is a spike will almost always be inferior in antler development to a 1.5 year old fork horned deer. The number is so high that there is no reason to let any spike walk around under normal circumstances; ie drought, etc.

You can take all of the studies from other states and believe what you want but I'll stick with what the Kerr study has shown and what the "old" way has done for us for all of these years.

TH


----------



## Jbs8307 (Jun 29, 2009)

Trouthunter said:


> Blah, no matter what "study" you read the premise is the same; a 1.5 year old under normal developmental circumstances that is a spike will almost always be inferior in antler development to a 1.5 year old fork horned deer. The number is so high that there is no reason to let any spike walk around under normal circumstances; ie drought, etc.
> 
> You can take all of the studies from other states and believe what you want but I'll stick with what the Kerr study has shown and what the "old" way has done for us for all of these years.
> 
> TH


Thats funny because every other study conducted other than the kerr study has shown quite the opposite. Its been well documented that a bucks antlers at 1.5 are no indication of what he will be maturity. There are too many other variables involved in that first year. (mothers health, weather, mothers age, deer density ect....) Name me one study that comes to the same conclusion the kerr one did.


----------



## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

I do know on our place most all are spikes the first yr, in fact this yr is the first yr I've seen a racked 1 1/2y/o. If we shot all of m we'd never have any racked bucks. In or about 1961 was the first yr spike bucks were legal in E Texas. In Miss all spikes are protected, has to be 4pt AND 13"....WW


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

And on and on and on and on. Aint it fun ??


----------



## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Odd at how 2 states co close are so far apart on things, a turkeys beard has a length restriction also over there....WW


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

After reading after all the bad genetics will come back. Hmm I hope we all dont get sick we will all turn back to monkeys. (according to some people).


----------



## Tx625 (Nov 30, 2010)

Sgrem, just wondering, do you believe all of the stuff you just stated because you read someone's studies? Or because all of what you have said is taken from first hand knowledge of you managing and producing big deer year after year?


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Culls exist... There is just confusion about how much difference culling makes.


----------



## Tx625 (Nov 30, 2010)

Encinal said:


> Culls exist... There is just confusion about how much difference culling makes.


Very curious to here your thoughts on the issue!


----------



## Zereaux (Jul 18, 2006)

We "cull" on our place, but improving genetics has little to do with it. We are at or above carrying capacity on our lease and if we don't thin the herd every year, we get overcrowded very quickly. So, if I know I need to kill 15 bucks to keep the population at a healthy level, why wouldn't I kill the 4.5 yr old 8pt instead of the 3.5 yr old 10pt? It is also important to have a balance throughout each age class. If I decide that I have too many <2.5 yr old bucks, why wouldn't I shoot spikes over forked antlered bucks? The land can only support so many mouths, which ones do you want to support? For context, our lease is 3200 acres in Kinney county. We are high fenced on 3 sides, but the fences are old and have been beat down by illegals climbing over them. so, we might as well be low fenced. Neighbors have the same philosophy as we do. Culling as we do will never have an appreciable impact on genetics. That type of impact takes some radical action and controls.


----------



## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Tx625 said:


> Sgrem, just wondering, do you believe all of the stuff you just stated because you read someone's studies? Or because all of what you have said is taken from first hand knowledge of you managing and producing big deer year after year?


I am just relating some experience as many have. Those who have full control and inventory of their ranches with dedicated control of their hunters can likely share a different experience. However that is the exception not the norm for most hunters. Those with that kind of scenario will ALWAYS be more vocal of their success as it something to be proud given the amount of effort and decades of committment so bragging rights well deserved!!!! BUT i believe that most cant hunt that way.....so for the most.....it is impractical to expect to be able to maintain that level of control and inventory on a piece of property on a consistent enough basis to keep it up that way. And i think even those that have achieved it will admit that god forbid they got hit by a train and no one hunted that place for a decade you would be back to square one with alllllllllll the same genetics that have never been changed to begin with.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Never been changed to began with. Sorry I have to dis agree with that one. If they are gone, no longer there, then how can they come back ?? Yes it takes a while to eliminate bad traits ( I understand a few will be missed) but back to square one. I dont think so. You can certainly make it much better by eliminating the bad and allowing the good or better to live. How "good" it gets is anybody's guess. Yes you must have almost conplete control for a number of years and yes hi fences make it easier but to say they are no cull or management bucks is way out in left field. If you take that approach then fine I have no problems with your approach it's just not mine..


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> Name me one study that comes to the same conclusion the kerr one did.


Don't have the time to do the research for you but I think all of them do. What other studies I have read state is that the spike buck at 1.5 years old USUALLY as I said will not be as good of a buck that a fork antlered deer will be.

Some say that by 4.5 the spike will catch up to the fork antlered deer but in over 40 years of hunting I have only seen this happen twice and the spike is USUALLY inferior in tine length, number of points, spread and mass. Why would you want that buck breeding for 4 years?

You manage as you see fit and we'll do the same. It's what makes the world go around. 

TH


----------



## KILT610 (Feb 24, 2006)

Haute Pursuit said:


> The other states you mentioned don't have the deer population of Texas and there deer are bigger mostly because of the quality of there groceries... grain fields. Also, I have been hunting the same ranch for 31 years... I have a little experience. Age does not cure poor genetics. I have killed 6 year old forkies with close to 20" spreads on our place. It took us 5 years to clean them out.


Amen


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

I hate the spike argument... It should be as dead as the not shooting does argument that was around in the 50's...


----------



## dolch (Aug 19, 2005)

You may not affect the down range genetics, but it's pretty obvious that there are only so many groceries to go around. I'd rather have more for the deer that show better characteristics for there age for my protein bill. 

You can argue anything you want with statistics, but 3 year old typical 6 points rarely become 6.5 yr old typical 12's. 

A narrow rack 3 doesn't typically get really wide because the stars aligned. You let the ones live that make you happy a chance to be happier. I can't say what kind of deer makes you happy, but I don't like seeing fully mature 7 points beating up middle aged 10's. Shooting the 7 allows the 10 a less stressful life, and "studies show" that stress is a factor in antler size. 

So if it's all the same, how do YOU choose which deer you shoot? Do you let them all get to 7.5? Hope that that 3 yr old 6 became an 8 with some sexxy trash? 

Fun arguement, but your not going to win many ranch owners to your way of thinking.


----------



## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

Trouthunter said:


> Don't have the time to do the research for you but I think all of them do. What other studies I have read state is that the spike buck at 1.5 years old USUALLY as I said will not be as good of a buck that a fork antlered deer will be.
> 
> Some say that by 4.5 the spike will catch up to the fork antlered deer but in over 40 years of hunting I have only seen this happen twice and the spike is USUALLY inferior in tine length, number of points, spread and mass. Why would you want that buck breeding for 4 years?
> 
> ...


So how are you tracking all those first year spikes over a 4 year period?


----------



## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

I would like to see a study done where several large pastures are used in order to test a few culling theories. One pasture should be left completely alone as a control. One pasture should be fed in accordance with good management practices. On should be culled and not fed and the last should be culled and fed. My bet is that we see more benefit from feed than anything else. I also feel that culling will have some effect but not as much as most people think. When a manager starts culling they are typically feeding as well and managing properly so the culling works because the rest of it works. Now if you think culling is the greatest thing since white bread go for it. If it causes you to better manage your deer herd it is the greatest thing since white bread. Oh and I would like it to be studied on high and low fenced ranches so a total of 8 pastures would be needed.


----------

