# Is this just good genetics or what? Cull?



## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

This beautiful buck was passed last year and the year before. This is his picture from 2 years ago. You can see he has one nice 5" tine on his left!
His mass is not much but what a buck none the less. 
I'm just going to wing it and say it's just pure D great genetics.
I think he has 7 storable points in this picture trying hard to be an 8.
Last year he made the entire 8 points.

When you have genetics like this what more could you ask for!!!
This buck just screams great genetics!

A guy actually told me this buck was lacking everything and he would cull him!
Can you believe that?

Who thinks this is great genetics, would you cull him?









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## daddyeaux (Nov 18, 2007)

It would be nice if you had a current pic of him.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Caint tell how old he is in that picture.


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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

That right there is a 165" deer on my place. Lol


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## djwag94 (Nov 19, 2009)

What a deer, unbelievable breeder stock. I'm with ya on those "7 storable points", that protein y'all been using is really starting to pay off. heck, he might be in the 200 class in another 8-10 years


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## elkhunter49 (Jun 7, 2004)

That looks like a cull to me Brett but I'm no WT expert in anyone's eye's. I don't see anything worth reproducing!


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

djwag94 said:


> What a deer, unbelievable breeder stock. I'm with ya on those "7 storable points", that protein y'all been using is really starting to pay off. heck, he might be in the 200 class in another 8-10 years


He might be this year


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

CHARLIE said:


> Caint tell how old he is in that picture.


He's a 3 year old in the picture Charlie 5 this year.


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## Mojo281 (Sep 7, 2006)

Loaded question... Nice buck!


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

Compare your pic to these from Webb County.
http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=2330770

I bet Elkhunter has seen similar.


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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

redexpress said:


> Compare your pic to these from Webb County.
> http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=2330770
> 
> I bet Elkhunter has seen similar.


I've been looking so I showed my wife that thread. She read it and said no! Lol


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Here he was last year and the year before.

I have a new picture of him from last night I'll post in a bit.









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## rudytail10 (Feb 29, 2012)

broadonrod said:


> Here he was last year and the year before.
> 
> I have a new picture of him from last night I'll post in a bit.
> 
> ...


I would say that he is definitely not a cull. In the first pic as a 3yo on your place he has lots of potential to be a great buck. He has a very desirable frame and with feeding year round I would bet his tine length and points come with some more age.

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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

rudytail10 said:


> I would say that he is definitely not a cull. In the first pic as a 3yo on your place he has lots of potential to be a great buck. He has a very desirable frame and with feeding year round I would bet his tine length and points come with some more age.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Even a pencil horn 7 point Clayton lol. It's all genetics lol!


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## rudytail10 (Feb 29, 2012)

broadonrod said:


> Even a pencil horn 7 point Clayton lol. It's all genetics lol!


Lol yes sir even a pencil horn 7. The buck I had the pleasure of taking last year was a pencil horn 9 for several years. Same exact frame as this one. Hell this could be his offspring.

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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

rudytail10 said:


> Lol yes sir even a pencil horn 7. The buck I had the pleasure of taking last year was a pencil horn 9 for several years. Same exact frame as this one. Hell this could be his offspring.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Even this early in the year.... we are seeing better results than we ever imagined. 
I have never seen our overall herd look even close to what we are seeing now.
We have cameras on 5 total feeders now. We have 73 feeders total. It's blown my mind what XYZ can do .. 
I posted this 7 point buck just to put a little real life into the genetic drama I hear about our lease.  our place isn't magical it's fed well with the right Feed and not over "culled". Opportunity is key. Not Managment. This buck is not even close to one of the bigger bucks we have seen on camera this year but he has **** sure proven 3 year old 7-8 points with short tines and no mass with good Feed can reach their maximum potential.


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## Redhunter84 (Aug 25, 2016)

I think BRETT is waiting on the 4-5 guys always talking **** on here to give there opinions lmao!
Funny they are quiet on this post hehehe. 
Show us this DD monster Brett enough is enough.

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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Redhunter84 said:


> I think BRETT is waiting on the 4-5 guys always talking **** on here to give there opinions lmao!
> Funny they are quiet on this post hehehe.
> Show us this DD monster Brett enough is enough.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Lol... no just another post...

Here is the buck this year. Still lots of growing to do. 
He will be passed again this season do to age and is in a very safe central area of the ranch. I love seeing wild deer pop like this. 
The message I wanted to send is if you shoot the wrong deer and to many deer thinking you know what they will become it's not good.
With good Feed year round and more opportunity " less culling" Bucks will surprise you. 
This buck was a 7 point... now his main beams will make 30" I think. His mass will push 40" this year. He is super wide and grown lots of tines.

Opportunity and taking the extra step with the right nutrition. That's why I opened the post asking "how good are these genetics" this buck was a text book cull IMO. So what do you cull with a good feed program?









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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

At 3 he's safe but if just 8 at 5 and not lenghtened and improved dramatically on mass(145" [email protected] 5yrs ) he's border line . You have better upandcomers over there.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

Now there ( I did not see post until after my previous) he's headed in right direction


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

sotexhookset said:


> That right there is a 165" deer on my place. Lol


Ya'll use a different type of math out there?


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

mrsh978 said:


> At 3 he's safe but if just 8 at 5 and not lenghtened and improved dramatically on mass(145" [email protected] 5yrs ) he's border line . You have better upandcomers over there.


Many of the better ones fail us. Bucks like these that most cull surprises us. 
We never saw jumps like these when I managed the old way. Our place is not as magical as people think. It's a different management plan.


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## Redhunter84 (Aug 25, 2016)

broadonrod said:


> Lol... no just another post...
> 
> Here is the buck this year. Still lots of growing to do.
> He will be passed again this season do to age and is in a very safe central area of the ranch. I love seeing wild deer pop like this.
> ...


Good God! And that was a seven point...

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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

AvianQuest said:


> Ya'll use a different type of math out there?


Lol. Not at all. Just assuming he'd get that good at 7 yo looking like that as early on as the game pic was. I figured he'd be pushing 190" plus on Brett's place at 4-5 after getting hard horned.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

Kinda why you should not shoot 3.5 yrs old. They can blossom or continue on exact same flight plan. We've " lost " up and comers - these two. The largest has never been seen by human eye, only on camera for 2 years and the other got a pass at five and has not been seen since -8 people hunted him this last season and no one saw him


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

That's another reason when we built our feed blend we made it so our deer couldn't resist it. We feed Year Round for several reasons. 
One it keeps our deer on our place. We never let the feeders run out so they don't leave.
Two they like it more than corn or anything else we have fed so they don't leave and we see them come in during hunting hours.
These are reasons aside of growing big deer we never stop feeding. 
I hate feeding them and never seeing them.
Those are great looking deer. I would like to see them on this feed
very nice.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

The mass in our young Bucks has improved dramatically.
Here's a picture from last night of a nice youngster. Look at that mass.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

This is another buck we didn't except much out of this year. It looks like he is headed in the right direction. 
He is 6- 7 years old in the first picture from last season. He was an 8 point last year he is going to have at least 8 on his left side this year and added a ton of mass.

















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## DR_Smith (Jul 20, 2016)

Great pics!! Going to be a good season! Keep these multi yr pics coming!


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

This old buck is jumping off the charts! At 9-10 years old he looks like he is exploding. I hope he keeps it up over the next couple of months. 
Best we can tell so far is he looks like 8x7 
First pic we almost took him as a Managment buck do to age. Second pic was 2 weeks ago his mass has really jumped and points between points on both sides. If he splits like last year on his 2s and 3s he should be around 20 points this year.

Year round feeding is the most important part of our plan now. That and age is proving to show the results we have hoped for.

















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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

These deer are in the middle of 32000 acres - LF, rio grande on one side- they didn't leave . I think they responded to Human pressure and became reclusive. We don't have deer blinds ( hy lifts or scissors) and the numerous hunters who hunted these deer set up in every scenario possible and either deer was never seen this past year but showed up at night on camera. Both are cottonseed whores. No feed of any brand would help/assist in putting these bucks in harms way from us hunters. They are just smart and do everything to avoid any human exposure.


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## rudytail10 (Feb 29, 2012)

mrsh978 said:


> Kinda why you should not shoot 3.5 yrs old. They can blossom or continue on exact same flight plan. We've " lost " up and comers - these two. The largest has never been seen by human eye, only on camera for 2 years and the other got a pass at five and has not been seen since -8 people hunted him this last season and no one saw him


Those are some nice deer. Hopefully y'all can get on them this season.

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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

My current feeding program - Heb tortilla s . That pic is from the lazy boy blind ( living room )


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Brett

What percentage of the deer like the 3 year old in your picture do you think finally after years of feeding "pop" and turn into great deer ? Do yall cull anything ?


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Brett's management plan in a nutshell: 

Start with a huge ranch in prime South Texas that just naturally has high protein vegetation. Do your best to shoot off animals that compete with deer for food, or that prey on deer. Don't shoot any deer, because you never know how big they may be years down the road. Have an endless supply of the best protein feed available, along with endless water. :cheers:

The above is meant as a compliment, keep the pictures and videos coming!


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

CHARLIE said:


> Brett
> 
> What percentage of the deer like the 3 year old in your picture do you think finally after years of feeding "pop" and turn into great deer ? Do yall cull anything ?


It makes it very hard to choose what to take. The deer that hit the feeders the hardest tend to do the best. I can't tell anymore. We are raising what I would have considered Managment bucks years back into trophies. 
A large percentage of bucks like that 3 year old I posted pop. That's why that deer was left alone even with much better looking young deer at the same station.
It has become impossible to tell which buck will do what with boosted nutrition.
I also believe many of our deer are eating our "supplement feed" as 60-75% of their diet and in reality using native brush as a true "supplement" now.

Here is a good example and a picture from this week. 
The 2 young bucks on the right are no brainer nice up and comers.
As prob 3 year olds they are showing all kinds of good stuff. Splits, droptine just all great stuff.
The buck on the left is older. So far all I can tell is he added a split browtine this year from last. But he rutted very hard last year and could have had a bad year because of that. He was a slick 8 last year. I have no doubt that the inferior older buck on the left could become the best buck taken out of those three deer.
It wouldn't surprise me at all. So we leave him too. It's very hard to choose. 









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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Like i said.....cull bucks....dont exist.  With age and nutrition they will get there.

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=385373&highlight=Kroll

Sorry for hijack....


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

sgrem said:


> Like i said.....cull bucks....dont exist.  With age and nutrition they will get there.
> 
> http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=385373&highlight=Kroll
> 
> Sorry for hijack....


Not high jacking.. very true imo.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Thirty to 40 years back, I couldn't wait for the latest edition of Deer & Deer Hunting Magazine to arrive in the mail. Charles Alsheimer, Al Brothers, people like that wrote what they knew. I didn't have the means to follow what they suggested, but was truly fascinated. A sentence that really got my attention was along the lines of "a 1,000 acres will support a certain amount of pounds of deer, do you want more smaller deer or fewer bigger deer?" However, food plots and supplemental feeding have drastically changed that now. I still find deer management as very fascinating but not an exact science. Genetics may be more or less important than many believe, but I think all agree on age and nutrition.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

It hasn't really changed that much at all. What those deer management pioneers said way back then is still very true. The land will still only carry a certain number of pounds of deer. All feeding does is raise that number artificially. It just comes down to your personal preference. Do you want deer in a "feed lot" environment where they have to make a living on feed or do you want your herd at or near carrying capacity and using feed as a supplement? To each his own. There are fantastic deer grown under both regimines.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

Not mentioned yet is the monetary cost associated to " just how far/ how much money is to be considered to obtain a " trophy"? Sacks of the greatest feed aren't free. It's a never ending topic


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

mrsh978 said:


> Not mentioned yet is the monetary cost associated to " just how far/ how much money is to be considered to obtain a " trophy"? Sacks of the greatest feed aren't free. It's a never ending topic


Lots of wisdom right there.

Who doesn't remember the miracle that was promised by Tecomate food plots? If you don't remember, or just don't know, just google it. Those seeds were better than a yeti cooler, made their own water.

And then there was .... cmon you guys know the rest of the followers. Chime in my memory is a little clouded.

I could always start another thread.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Just keep posting pictures and videos Brett, and I will keep watching and looking. As cool as the pictures are, the videos are what really get me. Watching a huge rack move as a buck moves around just does it for me.


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## WEBB COUNTY BUZZ (Jul 13, 2012)

Lagunaroy said:


> Lots of wisdom right there.
> 
> Who doesn't remember the miracle that was promised by Tecomate food plots? If you don't remember, or just don't know, just google it. Those seeds were better than a yeti cooler, made their own water.
> 
> ...


I don't understand what you're talking about but yes I agree you should start another thread this one is discussing deer management

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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

WEBB COUNTY BUZZ said:


> I don't understand what you're talking about but yes I agree you should start another thread this one is discussing deer management
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Not surprised at your lack of understanding. It is one of those infirmities of youth, based on a lack of knowledge.

You are just an acolyte, spreading the words you were given.

Now as far as a new thread...this one is fine with me, unless the OP requests it's deletion.

Really, you have never heard of DR. Schwartz, David Morris, and Jordan Shipley?


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## WEBB COUNTY BUZZ (Jul 13, 2012)

Yes I have heard of all of those guys anyone with a tv has, that doesn't mean You're old and wise it just means you have a tv and internet. And i am young as far as deer hunting goes but I'm willing to learn I don't go on the internet and troll people who are simply trying to share a lifetime of knowledge about deer management. If you had anything good to say I'd listen to you as well.


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

WEBB COUNTY BUZZ said:


> If you had anything good to say I'd listen to you as well.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Well young man, you have already set your goal in life. As long as everyone agrees with you, you are a happy camper.

Now a freebie, if you don't have people around you, that question you, and disagree with you, you will fail in life.


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## WEBB COUNTY BUZZ (Jul 13, 2012)

I'm going to fail at life bc I agree with Brett's deer management plan? I appreciate the life advice but I think I'm doing just fine 


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

WEBB COUNTY BUZZ said:


> I'm going to fail at life bc I agree with Brett's deer management plan? I appreciate the life advice but I think I'm doing just fine
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Well, who knows better than you? Good luck sport


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## Friendswoodmatt (Feb 22, 2005)

question -- do these deer pick your supplemental feed over natural high protein browse? In my limited experience-- At my last couple of leases -most of the deer would hit protein hard when there wasn't other available sources -- say acorns -- but when those started dropping, we would see a dramatic decrease in our protein consumption. Do you see this as well? Or are your deer on the feed all the time -- and will pick it in leiu of whats naturally available, because of the taste or some other factor?
I am not trying to stir the pot-- would actually like to know, as i am on the fence on feeding protein. My place wont be hunted hardly at all and the neighbors dont hunt at all -- between those we tally around 3k acres that may have say 6 -10 deer killed in a year and 2-3 would be bucks. So I figured the decrease in pressure would allow for older deer and better racks etc.


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

Ok, shall we continue down the road of miracle deer feed?

Let's start with Bill Jordan, ya know the Realtree guy, oh they had lots of seed to sell.

Dr. Deer, who I respect, even got in on the miracle deer feed craze. I mean the list is long and somewhat distinguished of folks feeding deer.

But here is where we find ourselves today, someone else selling the miracle to big antlers. Not a healthier herd that would be sustainable. Nope it's all about, 200+ horns. 

I have nothing against you for investing your money and time to make a profit. 

It's a fact, it's never been sustainable, Ma Nature has a say. 

But...let's be honest, it's all about $$$, so cut the bs.


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## WEBB COUNTY BUZZ (Jul 13, 2012)

So you don't believe in feeding you hate food plots, protein pellets and anyone who uses them. Show me one good deer you have shot off of your ranch/lease show me why your way is better and your management plan is the way to go. 


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Lagunaroy said:


> Ok, shall we continue down the road of miracle deer feed?
> 
> Let's start with Bill Jordan, ya know the Realtree guy, oh they had lots of seed to sell.
> 
> ...


It is obvious you watch TV shows and read magazines. 
It is obvious you have no respect for anyone including your self.

Good Lord dude you are sick in the head.
What is your real name anyway... just curious?

Once again this place is going down hill because of acehokes like you! 
I just don't get it. 









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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Friendswoodmatt said:


> question -- do these deer pick your supplemental feed over natural high protein browse? In my limited experience-- At my last couple of leases -most of the deer would hit protein hard when there wasn't other available sources -- say acorns -- but when those started dropping, we would see a dramatic decrease in our protein consumption. Do you see this as well? Or are your deer on the feed all the time -- and will pick it in leiu of whats naturally available, because of the taste or some other factor?
> I am not trying to stir the pot-- would actually like to know, as i am on the fence on feeding protein. My place wont be hunted hardly at all and the neighbors dont hunt at all -- between those we tally around 3k acres that may have say 6 -10 deer killed in a year and 2-3 would be bucks. So I figured the decrease in pressure would allow for older deer and better racks etc.


As I mentioned before I believe our deer prefer our "supplement feed" I've native brush. I'm pretty sure if it.
If you have a serious question about the Feed feel free to contact me by email on our website. 
I think many of our deer now consume 60-75% of their diet eating DD.
Or it's something in the water .. 
thanks for the reply.


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

WEBB COUNTY BUZZ said:


> So you don't believe in feeding you hate food plots, protein pellets and anyone who uses them. Show me one good deer you have shot off of your ranch/lease show me why your way is better and your management plan is the way to go.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


See, as a true acolyte, you make things up. Not a bit surprised, at your response, without fact you just repeat what your thoughts are.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Lagunaroy said:


> See, as a true acolyte, you make things up. Not a bit surprised, at your response, without fact you just repeat what your thoughts are.


Sick! Sick in the head


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## WEBB COUNTY BUZZ (Jul 13, 2012)

Lagunaroy said:


> See, as a true acolyte, you make things up. Not a bit surprised, at your response, without fact you just repeat what your thoughts are.


What's you're real name and where are you from?

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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

WEBB COUNTY BUZZ said:


> What's you're real name and where are you from?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The guy gets on here because nobody will talk to him. He has to do this to draw attention to himself by attempting to hurt others to get somebody to talk to him.
He's prob sitting on a couch in his tighty whities waiting on you to post and laughing. It takes him almost 30 seconds to respond to a post ... think about it.. he is sick. 
I'll bet his daddy is proud


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

broadonrod said:


> It is obvious you watch TV shows and read magazines.
> It is obvious you have no respect for anyone including your self.
> 
> Good Lord dude you are sick in the head.
> ...


Ok for starters, that's quite a pic you posted, but I think it reflects the true person you are.

Hey look you are just another feed salesman try to follow a failed business model. Why can't you be honest and tell everybody buying your feed, that's where you are making your money.

Now, let's talk about your respect comment, man that pic shows your maturity, and the respect you give to others, but hey that's you. Your acolytes will praise you, and support you.

Now health issues you referenced, none, I can spot a phony from 200 yards without a feeder to get them in close.

Don't blame 2cool, it's all you pal


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Lagunaroy said:


> Ok for starters, that's quite a pic you posted, but I think it reflects the true person you are.
> 
> Hey look you are just another feed salesman try to follow a failed business model. Why can't you be honest and tell everybody buying your feed, that's where you are making your money.
> 
> ...


You are sick! You may not be able to help it so maybe I should hold my tongue.
None the less I think you are a true ACE HOLE! 
So the picture fits. 
I guess guys like you make this a great place for hunters. 
What a tool!
66 years old and your a perfect model for true sportsman


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

broadonrod said:


> You are sick! You may not be able to help it so maybe I should hold my tongue.
> None the less I think you are a true ACE HOLE!
> So the picture fits.
> I guess guys like you make this a great place for hunters.
> ...


And I thought you posted a selfie, silly me!

Rave on, great one, show everybody the true you.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Lagunaroy said:


> And I thought you posted a selfie, silly me!
> 
> Rave on, great one, show everybody the true you.


You are sick!
What is your name? You post lots of names what is yours? 
Be grateful somebody finally ask you a question and it's the first one you can't answer dumbass!


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## sea sick (Feb 9, 2006)

Well that escalated quickly...I think Roy would call it a cull


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

sea sick said:


> Well that escalated quickly...I think Roy would call it a cull


Roy who?


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

broadonrod said:


> Roy who?


Hey look, you wanna talk deer, hunting, management, business, then fine.

If you wanna call people names if they disagree with you, ask you to be honest, and yes ask you to tell the truth, and refuse.

Then man up, instead of parsing your words.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Lagunaroy said:


> Hey look, you wanna talk deer, hunting, management, business, then fine.
> 
> If you wanna call people names if they disagree with you, ask you to be honest, and yes ask you to tell the truth, and refuse.
> 
> Then man up, instead of parsing your words.


What's your name? Dumbass!...


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## sea sick (Feb 9, 2006)

broadonrod said:


> Roy who?


Who's Roy???? The ol man giving you shaaat lol


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## WEBB COUNTY BUZZ (Jul 13, 2012)

He won't give his real name cause he's a troll 


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

WEBB COUNTY BUZZ said:


> He won't give his real name cause he's a troll
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Your daddy wasn't an Exxon guy was he?:biggrin:

But here is a little sumthin for ya,


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

WEBB COUNTY BUZZ said:


> He won't give his real name cause he's a troll
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I just want his real name.


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## sea sick (Feb 9, 2006)

Well he trolled you out of the weeds juat fine lol yall have fun...that buck has some nice curves to him


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## WEBB COUNTY BUZZ (Jul 13, 2012)

Matt hammond college station Texas. 


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

sea sick said:


> Well he trolled you out of the weeds juat fine lol yall have fun...that buck has some nice curves He's my hobby now! He will learn !


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## FFLack (May 10, 2014)

Too bad folks can't be blocked from posting!! Don't let him get to you Brett. Keep on posting, there are plenty of us who enjoy seeing the growth and info you share on deer. I wasn't able to get in a lease this year so I'm could ti g on the Holden Pasture Mknsters to get me through this season . Lol


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> What's your name? Dumbass!...


Lmao....the short napoleon getting a little upset:dance:biggrin:


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

FFLack said:


> Too bad folks can't be blocked from posting!! Don't let him get to you Brett. Keep on posting, there are plenty of us who enjoy seeing the growth and info you share on deer. I wasn't able to get in a lease this year so I'm could ti g on the Holden Pasture Mknsters to get me through this season . Lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> Lol... no just another post...
> 
> Here is the buck this year. Still lots of growing to do.
> He will be passed again this season do to age and is in a very safe central area of the ranch. I love seeing wild deer pop like this.
> ...


Your opening post you were dogging a guy for saying he was a cull...now you are stating this buck is a text book cull in your opinion ...a lot of mixed messages


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

hunttexas said:


> Your opening post you were dogging a guy for saying he was a cull...now you are stating this buck is a text book cull in your opinion ...a lot of mixed messages


That post was for smarter people than you to figure out. 
Go have another drink.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

hunttexas said:


> Your opening post you were dogging a guy for saying he was a cull...now you are stating this buck is a text book cull in your opinion ...a lot of mixed messages


Sorry I didn't mean to confuse you with my light sarcasm


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

No mixed messages.
Spend more time around deer camp fire and his talk is clear.

Deer is easily identified as a classic textbook cull.....that got a pass.....and blew up into a monster surprising everyone.....

Classic textbook culls turn into trophys for someone with age and nutrition. Culls dont exist.


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## rudytail10 (Feb 29, 2012)

Wow. I can't believe that people still do this. I have personally know Brett for years. And I have had the pleasure of being able to see the progression on his ranch first hand. I hunted on his place before double down was introduced and yes the deer were amazing then. Best I have ever seen. But over the last 5 seasons it is just amazing what the overall deer herd has done. Not just the bucks but the whole herd. People feel the need to trash people for success and it's truly sad. Why can't you just be happy for someone who has been successful. I for one think that most appreciate that he shares his experiences. If you own a ranch or lease one and are trying to maximize your properties potential the knowledge he shares will save you a ton of time and money. Brett keep posting the progression of you deer and videos. They keep most of us informed and entertained. See ya soon brother. 


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

This has become stupid. You killed a cool discussion with 2nd grade drama....go color.


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Geez...this turned really stupid really fast.

I'm no 2Cool legal expert...but isn't it against the rules to bash sponsors? I'm curious what instrument Roy is gonna play.

Someone seems to have a touch of envy...


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## Friendswoodmatt (Feb 22, 2005)

Wow -- this is not what I had in mind-- I will contact you directly Brett- and see if feeding is the best idea for us and what we want to do at our ranch-- your feed or another- or none--carry on...


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

98aggie77566 said:


> Geez...this turned really stupid really fast.
> 
> I'm no 2Cool legal expert...but isn't it against the rules to bash sponsors? I'm curious what instrument Roy is gonna play.
> 
> Someone seems to have a touch of envy...


Yes it did . But is ok for a sponsor to not be professional by calling names and threatening someone- the pic wasn't needed . There will be disagreements on anything in life .


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Friendswoodmatt said:


> question -- do these deer pick your supplemental feed over natural high protein browse? In my limited experience-- At my last couple of leases -most of the deer would hit protein hard when there wasn't other available sources -- say acorns -- but when those started dropping, we would see a dramatic decrease in our protein consumption. Do you see this as well? Or are your deer on the feed all the time -- and will pick it in leiu of whats naturally available, because of the taste or some other factor?
> I am not trying to stir the pot-- would actually like to know, as i am on the fence on feeding protein. My place wont be hunted hardly at all and the neighbors dont hunt at all -- between those we tally around 3k acres that may have say 6 -10 deer killed in a year and 2-3 would be bucks. So I figured the decrease in pressure would allow for older deer and better racks etc.


Matt, it sounds like you bought into a great situation with your ranch. Your question about what deer prefer is very interesting. I think nature gives deer the ability to know what is best to eat, and acorns are a very good natural food. But obviously deer have a taste preference too, since they seem to love corn but it is not great for them. If you have the right feed that is very nutritious but the deer love it's taste, then you have struck gold!


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

I wanted to make this post separate from the above. Sponsors pay big money for the right to advertise on any type of communication. Budweiser pays money for rights to advertise on TV during a super bowl. Do we bad mouth Bud for promoting their product?

This is similar. We have a sponsor who has a roofing company and sells protein. He pays big money to advertise. The same as Bud spends money on Clydesdales, this sponsor spends money on his ranch deer. The videos and pictures prove something is working. 

Do we bash a fishing rod manufacturer sponsor for using their own rods to catch fish? Is there a difference?

Lighten up! Sit back and relax.


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## Friendswoodmatt (Feb 22, 2005)

I have tons of oaks on my place, as well as other stuff I have been told is pretty high value for forage. We do have pigs, and a decent number of exotics as well (but they seem to be concentrated around the river.) I am working now on getting water distribution set up across the ranch as they never did it-- so while i have 3 wells, for the last few years- they haven't run one of them, and one is not a good well in that it will pretty much only keep water in 1 trough. Since we have had decent rain I have a few springs and seeps coming back to life, my idea is to use one well on the back and pump water to strategic locations and tank it in one or more locations and gravity feed water stations in various parts of the ranch with it. The front pasture is well watered (river great well and multiple troughs connected to it) , its the middle and the back part of the ranch that's needs the most assistance. 
I am then going to tackle to protein or not issue-- but I am learning its a marathon not a sprint. 
All this protein stuff is certainly attractive in its results to the deer, but I'm on the fence at this time as to whether or not to supplementally feed protein, since I am not sure about its affects on my neighbors who currently dont feed it. I am learning about all this stuff. I thought I had a pretty good handle on it -- but after reading this post and others, I am not sure. We are all low fence and will stay that way as long as I own the place.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

mrsh978 said:


> Yes it did . But is ok for a sponsor to not be professional by calling names and threatening someone- the pic wasn't needed . There will be disagreements on anything in life .


I have to agree with this. It got way out of hand but the name calling is a bit ridiculous. 
Honestly, I didn't see it as sponsor bashing. Roy was simply pointing out that there are no majic beans, feeds, bullets, etc. in the deer industry. That's fact, not bashing a sponsor.
Keep posting pics of big deer. Everybody likes to see them.


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## Spots and Dots (May 23, 2004)

broadonrod said:


> As I mentioned before I believe our deer prefer our "supplement feed" I've native brush. I'm pretty sure if it.
> 
> If you have a serious question about the Feed feel free to contact me by email on our website.
> 
> ...


At what point is the "sustainability" of the deer herd at risk? I notice the browse line in many pictures is pretty high, and given a very high % of the herd's diet is now non-native, man made feed, i suspect the herd is loosing it's ability to be sustained naturally. The supplement sounds like it is now the primary source of nutrition.

As for feed peddlers......all the manufacturers believe their's is the best, but i've never seen L&E or Purina act in such a manner as the DD peddler. I show preference to the other feeds on this very principle. Our bucks might (or might not) give up a few inches, but not supporting DD gives me more jollies than extra inches does.

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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

The fact of the matter is that the Holden ranch has some dam good bucks roaming around. Entertaining thread every year that makes me want to get into the brush and hunt for sure. 
This thread went sideways, but to each his own...


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Cynoscion said:


> I have to agree with this. It got way out of hand but the name calling is a bit ridiculous.
> Honestly, I didn't see it as sponsor bashing. Roy was simply pointing out that there are no majic beans, feeds, bullets, etc. in the deer industry. That's fact, not bashing a sponsor.
> Keep posting pics of big deer. Everybody likes to see them.


You and I were referring to different posts...

The post I was referring to is now gone...and the rules are what they are.


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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Matt, it sounds like you bought into a great situation with your ranch. Your question about what deer prefer is very interesting. I think nature gives deer the ability to know what is best to eat, and acorns are a very good natural food. But obviously deer have a taste preference too, since they seem to love corn but it is not great for them. If you have the right feed that is very nutritious but the deer love it's taste, then you have struck gold!


Now doubt. What a great problem to have bud. I'd say you are in a prime location/situation to start a protein regimen.

And wth? Derailed, like over water into the drink derailed.


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

mrsh978 said:


> Yes it did . But is ok for a sponsor to not be professional by calling names and threatening someone- the pic wasn't needed . There will be disagreements on anything in life .


Apparently it is......


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Progression in one week. This buck is 9 years old.

















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## southtexastrophyhunter (Aug 26, 2009)

i know that buck  i cant wait to see him finished out. he's going to blow some minds this year.


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## RedXCross (Aug 7, 2005)

Wow, this went south for those you thought wouldn't and those you knew would.


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> Progression in one week. This buck is 9 years old.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice buck!!...


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> Sorry I didn't mean to confuse you with my light sarcasm


No confusion on my part....I just simply re-stated your comments...and let's be real you were the one with a cocktail Friday night....all good!!

You have some bad a** deer no doubt!...and I look forward to your pics each year.

Not a hater but more a realist!


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## capt.dru (Oct 24, 2009)

Just curious, what have been your rainfall totals for the past few years as compared to this year? Studies have shown that higher rainfall totals equal to bigger racks. 

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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

In my expierence, a good protein feeding program tends to negate that fact.


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

Cynoscion said:


> In my expierence, a good protein feeding program tends to negate that fact.


Does it negate anthrax? I'm courious , as one time anthrax wiped out my neighbors place and about 4000 acre on me , cows,deer every thing! 
Always wondered


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Not sure where that came from but OK


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

Cynoscion said:


> Not sure where that came from but OK


No my question is does having your deer on a pellet primary feed help them ward off naturally occurring diseases or does over capacity help promote such things


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## James Howell (May 21, 2004)

First part of your question-no
second part- yes


pilar said:


> No my question is does having your deer on a pellet primary feed help them ward off naturally occurring diseases or does over capacity help promote such things


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

James Howell said:


> First part of your question-no
> second part- yes


Yep found this on here on a search , I was just wondering as some of the guys on here uped the capacity and have had problems

"Anthrax is a density dependent disease. The more deer you have the faster and worse the disease affects the population. Think flu in the inner city like New York (rate of spread and infection). I plead with my landowners to keep deer numbers down to lessen the effects of the disease. The warning usually falls on deaf ears until it pops up, but by then its to late." State biologists


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Ok so since we have the 2 biologist on here with so many hypotheses. And I'm all ears... 
Help me out please.

This buck at 10-11 years old last year took a swing in his life to having the best set of anthers ever. Not sure why but none the less something happened and he had by far the best antlers with the most mass ever.

Anyone with an eye for deer and watches our season threads knows this old buck. 
He gets posted a lot.

So back to cull or not...

For our 2 biologist... 
Should he have been taken last year at 10-11 years old or left to 11-12 years old. He has been a mainframe 8 pretty much his entire life. He's prob dead now right? 
Or could he have lived in the wild another year and just blown up on all them good eats he's got out there in the brush?

I guess what I'm asking is .. if you were the ranch manager for a group of hunters would you advise them to have taken this buck in these pictures I'm posting? 
Would you have culled him earlier when his head was less desirable at 4-5-6-7-8-9 years old? I'm hearing so many opinions from you fellars here about Feed and nutrition from all that schoolin... I don't have any biology degree so please help me. 
What say the collage folk?

Just picking a little but just for fun let's see what you fellas think and how he turns out this year compared to all the book knowledge you fellers have. 
Help a hunter out.

















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## Spots and Dots (May 23, 2004)

^*college...


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Spots and Dots said:


> ^*college...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yep all that collug.. fits right in with fellers now don't it?


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

All BS aside. With all the knowledge you 2 fellas have and opinions on Feed, nutrition and deer Managment you add to my post year after year. Give a real truthful answer on this question. 
If you don't mind?


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> Ok so since we have the 2 biologist on here with so many hypotheses. And I'm all ears...
> Help me out please.
> 
> This buck at 10-11 years old last year took a swing in his life to having the best set of anthers ever. Not sure why but none the less something happened and he had by far the best antlers with the most mass ever.
> ...


Very subjective and will vary from ranch to ranch...county to county.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

hunttexas said:


> Very subjective and will vary from ranch to ranch...county to county.


No sarcasm but it's a 10 year old 9 that has been an 8 with a kicker most of his other 9 years. Any ranch? I am being serious. 
As much as many want to think we have a magic umbrella over our Pasture this buck could prove me wrong this year. He is an ancient deer that prob has no teeth. 
I'm curios to see what the 2 biologist say about him.


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> No sarcasm but it's a 10 year old 9 that has been an 8 with a kicker most of his other 9 years. Any ranch? I am being serious.
> As much as many want to think we have a magic umbrella over our Pasture this buck could prove me wrong this year. He is an ancient deer that prob has no teeth.
> I'm curios to see what the 2 biologist say about him.


I do not believe you have a magic umbrella...you do have a bad a** place that is the exception and not the norm. That is what people do not understand...95% of places can not compare to your place. So yes it will vary and it is very subjective.

The only fair way to analyze is with the whole body of work not just a one off.

I'm in Dimmit county on 15,000 acres and we can not get our bucks to continue to progress after 7....they peak and go down from there.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

hunttexas said:


> I do not believe you have a magic umbrella...you do have a bad a** place that is the exception and not the norm. That is what people do not understand...95% of places can not compare to your place. So yes it will vary and it is very subjective.
> 
> The only fair way to analyze is with the whole body of work not just a one off.
> 
> I'm in Dimmit county on 15,000 acres and we can not get our bucks to continue to progress after 7....they peak and go down from there.


100% honestly how many deer have your hunters passed to 9 and 10 years old. That's the key. Opportunity will over power Managment by hunters opinions all day. 
People ask me all the time... how do I get there.. my answer is put out a good feed 365 days a year and lock the gate for 5 years with no management and watch out. 
I am an opportunist not a ranch manager IMO. 
Our goal was 160 at one time. A 170 didn't last 5 minutes on our place for many years. 
Lots of good feed and water, age and extreme patience. No culling for 5-10 years. Feed them hard and let Mother Nature do the rests. That is the closest thing to the best Managment plan I know of to get where we are. 
We shoot management deer and that is our downfall imo. They don't exists. Doe as well. Shoot a Trophy and the wrong doe and you may have lost your number one buck for the future. 
We shoot Managment bucks after 3 years of watching them. Most culls 6 plus years old.

If more people would put away the bullets and pick up a camera for a few years their deer would surprise them. 
Without pushing our feed which wasn't made originally to even be for sale but just for us. 
Find a custom blend that has the best components. Find something that really helps the growth not a bunch of fillers and cheap byproducts. I fed over the counter feed for years. It won't happen again. I would hand mix if I had to. I have learned alot about that in the past few years. 
Feed "has without question" changed our ranch dramatically in the last 6-7 years and the last 5 have really blown our minds. This year is doing that again.

Our young Bucks with "almost no culling" compared most to biologist recommendations have gone crazy. I have never seen what we are seeing now. 
We take less than "TWO" deer per year per Feed station on average. Bucks and doe together.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

I'll bite. We've spent a lot of time on the phone so you know our beliefs are not as different as most would think although we've had our differences for sure.
The thing about what we hold so dearly is that the goals of each ranch, each owner and/or each group of hunter's may differ completely. I manage a deer herd with very different goals in mind than you have for your place. I'm expected to have 20-25 "trophy" deer every year and 35-40 management bucks. This has to happen year in and year out regardless of conditions. I use supplemental feed to increase my carrying capacity slightly but the main reason for our feeding program is to take out the dry year variability in antler quality.
If I was consulting for a place like yours or any place structured like yours, we would sit down and discuss your goals before making any decisions. If your goals are to have 10 or less of the biggest bucks possible every year and there is no budget, then your model works perfectly. There's no need to cull anything bc you have the luxury of letting them walk until they die. You know that once a buck is post mature and doesn't have the stress of the yearly rut, he can do amazing things with regard to antler quality. I've seen it plenty of time here as well although I didn't do it on purpose. It was just a case where a deer was too hard to kill, slipped through the cracks and blew up at 11-14 years old. However, this is not the norm and I don't think it can happen without feed.
Soooo.....even based on the rules in place on the ranch that I work at, the buck in the picture would not be harvested most likely. He falls into our "grey" area. He's a mature deer with more than 8 total antler points and obviously scores well over 130". This makes him a trophy but he's not the kind of trophy we would target unless we just "needed" him to fill a void for a hunter. This is the kind of deer that usually slips through the cracks on our place and eventually gets shot when he's regresses to a less than 130" management deer or blows up into a 12 year old beast.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

The other thing, and this is not meant as a dig on you (I promise), is the density you guys run. It is extremely unhealthy for the range. I couldn't, in good conscious allow a landowner I was working for, to run densities like y'all have. It's your place and you get to do what you see fit and I understand and respect that.
When we feed, we artificially raise carrying capacity so we must also remove those extra mouths from the herd to maintain the integrity of the habitat. This is our responsibility as stewards of the land. To do this, we must harvest does, culls and management deer. We must draw the line somewhere with regard to harvest criteria.
I hope we keep this debate on track bc I love to talk deer.


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

Cynoscion said:


> The other thing, and this is not meant as a dig on you (I promise), is the density you guys run. It is extremely unhealthy for the range. I couldn't, in good conscious allow a landowner I was working for, to run densities like y'all have. It's your place and you get to do what you see fit and I understand and respect that.
> When we feed, we artificially raise carrying capacity so we must also remove those extra mouths from the herd to maintain the integrity of the habitat. This is our responsibility as stewards of the land. To do this, we must harvest does, culls and management deer. We must draw the line somewhere with regard to harvest criteria.
> I hope we keep this debate on track bc I love to talk deer.


Exactly....density is not the norm....sorry it's just not


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Cynoscion said:


> The other thing, and this is not meant as a dig on you (I promise), is the density you guys run. It is extremely unhealthy for the range. I couldn't, in good conscious allow a landowner I was working for, to run densities like y'all have. It's your place and you get to do what you see fit and I understand and respect that.
> When we feed, we artificially raise carrying capacity so we must also remove those extra mouths from the herd to maintain the integrity of the habitat. This is our responsibility as stewards of the land. To do this, we must harvest does, culls and management deer. We must draw the line somewhere with regard to harvest criteria.
> I hope we keep this debate on track bc I love to talk deer.


With all do respect. All I hear is how good our range conditions are. That why we have big deer. Our range conditions are incredible. We feed enough and built a feed the deer like enough that we don't even want them to eat native brush.
Many of our bucks we take weigh 250-285 lbs on the hoof! The healthiest deer I honestly have ever seen. We took 3 doe last year that dressed 117-131 lbs. our buck averaged 165-185 dressed on our old program. Our doe averaged 75-90 lbs dressed before this program. Most doe now average 100-110 early seasons. The less we cull the bigger our deer over all have become with our feed and culling program. Our range conditions have improved dramatically since we took this lease for all wildlife.

Text book says low numbers,better range conditions bigger deer. IMO that mixing stone age with proven evolution. Not meaning that as a poke at you but it's what we talk about around the fire most nights at our place.

More "Managment Deer" become trophies than good looking young deer morectines than not. 
When we start thinking everything that is written is the gospel we stop progressing. If more biologist visited our place and studied the deer progress at the ages and numbers we focus on I truly believe they would get a new perspective. I don't know maybe not. 
We do almost the opposite of everything I read but it only works If efforts are all on the same page and with maximum determination. 
Culling by the book is a ranch killer IMO.

I do appreciate you trying to keep this in track. I do enjoy a good discussion and believe strongly in our plan. I enjoy sharing and hope it helps others. 
My goal is is to raise multiple trophies for my hunters as your self.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

One thing for sure every place is different so there certainly no one way to manage all property.Some folks have thousands of acres and hundreds of deer. Some folks dont have the resources others have. We are small and do cull or manage deer. We cannot just feed all the animals and hope some day they may "pop" to use others words. We try and keep the best genetics and go from there. No we dont feed year round. Normally from December through October. Thats the best we can do. We have no motives other than to try and grow us some bigger deer and we dont sell hunts. Good luck to all you hunters and managers out there.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

hunttexas said:


> Exactly....density is not the norm....sorry it's just not


It is is you make it your Managment plan. Many Biologist don't agree. The ones that come visit our place leave with a whole new perspective than what they learned in class.

And then it may take years for them to write a new book about changing ideas.

I learned about age by accident "deer slipping through cracks "
I learned about feed from multiple different places . breeders , Feed companies , and experimenting on our own place with better components. Race care drivers don't drive cheap cars in the races. Competitive Body builders don't eat what everyone else's eats. Guys raising 400" exotic deer don't feed cheap feed and just enough. 
The best breeders I know of Feed the best and all they can feed them "without native brush" some of that can run 50.00 plus a 50# bag.

It's all in how much effort and restrain you have IMO.
But that's all just my opinion.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

CHARLIE said:


> One thing for sure every place is different so there certainly no one way to manage all property.Some folks have thousands of acres and hundreds of deer. Some folks dont have the resources others have. We are small and do cull or manage deer. We cannot just feed all the animals and hope some day they may "pop" to use others words. We try and keep the best genetics and go from there. No we dont feed year round. Normally from December through October. Thats the best we can do. We have no motives other than to try and grow us some bigger deer and we dont sell hunts. Good luck to all you hunters and managers out there.


That is a great write up Charlie. But I enjoy trying to accomplish the goal of the biggest deer I can possibly raise. Our plan is not for everyone. I agree with that you wrote and it fits many ranches. More feed, better feed , more deer and the biggest deer is my goal.

It is extreme but I believe for extreme trophy hunters it fits.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Cannot compare a hobby ranch raising animals for personal cool fun challenge with a business lodge that brings in hunters for paid guided deer hunts/shoots for a consistently profitable business model maximizing profits and minimizing expenses.

I said it years ago and im glad to see some change their tune that culls dont exist. I think the proof in pictures on Bretts ranch has surprised many that age and nutrition is what makes trophy bucks whether that is in a feedlot or on public land.

Management plans tend to be heavily followed for an ultimate goal of a dreamer, a business model, or even just make the management model fit the reality of what is actually happening (least work....many hunting leases are the last....just do what you think is right for example).

No right or wrong answer. Hunt your way for your most rewarding plan. Get on a lease that hunts that way too. Some landowners are open to learning from others experience....some already know it all where it is hard to top off a cup that is already full....


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Photo from earlier today at one of our feed stations.
This young buck has added teeeners on his left. I'm pretty sure this buck is 4 years old.
I have seen him numerous hunts 2 years in a row.
He was left as a main frame 8 point at 3 years old I would expect this buck to be taken as a 200" deer at 7-9 years old. If he loses his tweeners since we know he has had them we will never cull this buck on our program.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Example: Beautiful 12 from earlier today. 
I expect the 8 point main frame I just Posted to end up being a much higher scoring deer than this perfect beautiful 4 year old 12 deer once they reach maturity. Both will probably decline or stay the same in antler growth a year or 2 before they are taken.
It just seems to work that way.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Another 8 point frame on TC from earlier today that has some good stuff going on. This buck is prob 3 years old. Not a lot if points showing on his main frame yet but his browtines will keep him alive for years. Even if he loses the splits next year. They have put him in the "watch list" for good.

I like seeing all the crazy stuff on these young bucks. We have never seen so much as we are now on the young bucks.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Another TC picture from today of a young buck that should also be a 4 year old this year. He is looking great and has it all going for him. I have watched him since he was 1 year old. This buck has great potential to be a monster but yet again may not out score the 8 point frame I poster 3 post back once they reach maturity. All of these youngsters are put on the watch list for years to come. All have several years of breeding to do. Some may test the hunters but we know their ages. We can't keep track of all the bucks but keeping a simple photo list on an iPad or phone can help a lot.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

This is another young buck from the same feeder earlier today. This young buck should be a 3 year old. Again we have never seen this many extra points and mass on our young Bucks as we are seeing now.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

This is another buck from the same feeder this evening. He is also a 4 year old. 
He will be in the watch list for years to come. Keeping track of young bucks is important. He is showing great potential to be a future giant. Lots of mass, and lots of points. This buck gets years to breed.









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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

One more TC photo from earlier today. 
I know the buck in the back very well. We have watched him since he was 1 year old. He has had lazy ears his entire life. He is a 4 year old.
He is showing great potential this year to becoming a monster buck at maturity. I still think the mainframe 8 I posted first with the extra tweeners will end up being one of if not the best of the bunch in a few years.









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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

If you ever decide you would like to have folks from the university and/or CKWRI come out to look at your place, let me know and I'll reach out to them. If the habitat on your place is truly not affected by the deer densities y'all have, it would be worth researching and rewriting the play book.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

The last couple of pages of posts have some great replies that explain the difference. Facts instead of foolishness.

I enjoy pictures and videos of live deer. The Holden pasture is a great place for that. Add in the artistic ability of someone like elkhunter49 behind the camera, and you have images that are worthy of going on the wall.


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## Tail'in around (Oct 12, 2006)

I know itâ€™s off topic but I have always wanted to knowâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦hold your breathâ€¦â€¦.

I have a good friend who has a 900 ac place just south of Seguin close to Stockdale that consistently holds 130-140â€ deer and the same deer return every year and continue to grow every year. They donâ€™t have genetics like true south Texas deer, do not feed protein but feed corn year round, throw out alpha hay and feed soy beans.The place only cost 12K for the year and is cheap for what they have IMO and what they have is a chance to shoot I nice deer with 6 on the place that doesn't hit the pocket book hard. Their deer really stay around the place.Their place is basically a rectangle, long and skinny for the most part.The reason I think they truly stay around is they are in good cover, have feed to eat to supplement what mother nature has and doesnâ€™t have sometimes and most importantly is it high fenced on three sides, both long sides and the back fence by the neighbors who have large places with exoticsâ€¦â€¦â€¦

To do what you do is impressive to say the least and I like seeing the pictures and following the postsâ€¦â€¦â€¦the way you manage and pick out exactly what will be shot is most folks dream and that is a prime example of what most would say and especially me, saying â€œyou get what you pay forâ€. 

Not saying it is the reason you are so successful but it most definitely helps as I have seen firsthand what large pocket books and High fences do on places after time and the right management from, especially the two folks I know real well and having fences put up around their places and sitting back and watching!!!!! You also can hunt on a place that is mostly high fence and if it has â€œXâ€ amount of perimeter low fence tied into a high fence then the place could be considered a Low Fence ranch for the â€œrecord booksâ€.

Sorry for the long drawn out rambleâ€¦â€¦..If you donâ€™t mind me asking and to get to my question for you Brett. You may have answered this before in the past so forgive me if it has already been askedâ€¦â€¦â€¦.I canâ€™t imagine your lease is all completely low fence place with no high fence in place what so ever. If I am wrong please correct me but what would you say the percentage of your perimeter fence would you say is high fenced to keep animals in or out????


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Tail'in around said:


> I know itâ€™s off topic but I have always wanted to knowâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦hold your breathâ€¦â€¦.
> 
> I have a good friend who has a 900 ac place just south of Seguin close to Stockdale that consistently holds 130-140â€ deer and the same deer return every year and continue to grow every year. They donâ€™t have genetics like true south Texas deer, do not feed protein but feed corn year round, throw out alpha hay and feed soy beans.The place only cost 12K for the year and is cheap for what they have IMO and what they have is a chance to shoot I nice deer with 6 on the place that doesn't hit the pocket book hard. Their deer really stay around the place.Their place is basically a rectangle, long and skinny for the most part.The reason I think they truly stay around is they are in good cover, have feed to eat to supplement what mother nature has and doesnâ€™t have sometimes and most importantly is it high fenced on three sides, both long sides and the back fence by the neighbors who have large places with exoticsâ€¦â€¦â€¦
> 
> ...


Our front Pasture is 100% low fence. Our middle Pasture is 100% low fence totaling around 12 miles open Low Fence. Our back Pasture is open for about 4 miles Low Fence and has Fence across the back bordering the ranch owners other Pasture and each side of the back Pasture is fenced about 3 miles per side open to neighbors on the ends. I would love to have 1 more mile per side. That would still leave us about 10 miles low.

If I had my own smaller ranch I would probably Fence it off. This place is almost 14000 acres so we have a lot of country to hold our deer in. We just Feed really hard all year more in the center of the ranch than anything and do our best to keep them in. We do have good neighbors but we are on different Managment plans so we focus our plan harder on the center of the ranch more than anything.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Here is another old 8 point that was left last year. I'll be curious to see what happens on that right side. Still a lot of growing to do.









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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> Our front Pasture is 100% low fence. Our middle Pasture is 100% low fence totaling around 12 miles open Low Fence. Our back Pasture is open for about 4 miles Low Fence and has Fence across the back bordering the ranch owners other Pasture and each side of the back Pasture is fenced about 3 miles per side open to neighbors on the ends. I would love to have 1 more mile per side. That would still leave us about 10 miles low.
> 
> If I had my own smaller ranch I would probably Fence it off. This place is almost 14000 acres so we have a lot of country to hold our deer in. We just Feed really hard all year more in the center of the ranch than anything and do our best to keep them in. We do have good neighbors but we are on different Managment plans so we focus our plan harder on the center of the ranch more than anything.


Didn't you have Travis set up 30+/- feed pens about 200 yards off the fence line (draw some deer over) when you had a high fence put up? Or did you move pastures?


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

hunttexas said:


> Didn't you have Travis set up 30+/- feed pens about 200 yards off the fence line (draw some deer over) when you had a high fence put up? Or did you move pastures?


Give me a break! Lol


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> Give me a break! Lol


100% low fence huh...smh!

You have a bad a** place as I have clearly stated...but some of the grief you get is self inflicted.

Respectfully...


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

hunttexas said:


> 100% low fence huh...smh!
> 
> You have a bad a** place as I have clearly stated...but some of the grief you get is self inflicted.
> 
> Respectfully...


Read my post from earlier if you want to know how much Fence I have. If it bothers you so much go look at other threads.
Respectfully....


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> Read my post from earlier if you want to know how much Fence I have. If it bothers you so much go look at other threads.
> Respectfully....


It was just a simple question (no reason to get all pissy)...you stated 100% low fence. Just curious if you moved pastures since you put the high fence in?


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

hunttexas said:


> It was just a simple question (no reason to get all pissy)...you stated 100% low fence. Just curious if you moved pastures since you put the high fence in?


I really don't even know why your so worried about how much Fence we have unless your looking for a way around it. 
Read the post you quoted.
front Pasture 100%
Middle Pasture 100%
Back Pasture open 4 miles with fence 3x3x3 miles high open on ends. No inclusures. No DMP. No MLD and no more of your buddy Travis lol. Thank God!
Approx. 12 Miles Low Fence. 
You quoted the post.

It will all be ok.


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> I really don't even know why your so worried about how much Fence we have unless your looking for a way around it.
> Read the post you quoted.
> front Pasture 100%
> Middle Pasture 100%
> ...


Struck a nerve huh...again just a simple question as your post did not mention anything about "high"...thanks for clarifying.

And he is not my buddy...he is a douche bag!!!!


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

hunttexas said:


> Struck a nerve huh...again just a simple question as your post did not mention anything about "high"...thanks for clarifying.
> 
> And he is not my buddy...he is a douche bag!!!!


Let me clarify...Travis and Trey are douche bags!!!


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

hunttexas said:


> It was just a simple question (no reason to get all pissy)...you stated 100% low fence. Just curious if you moved pastures since you put the high fence in?





hunttexas said:


> Struck a nerve huh...again just a simple question as your post did not mention anything about "high"...thanks for clarifying.
> 
> And he is not my buddy...he is a douche bag!!!!


Well we agree on that last part and it's not a nerve I just don't know why hunters can't get on here and talk hunting without picking everyone apart.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

hunttexas said:


> Let me clarify...Travis and Trey are douche bags!!!


I fixed it.

Our front Pasture is 100% low fence. Our middle Pasture is 100% low fence totaling around 12 miles open Low Fence. Our back Pasture is open for about 4 miles Low Fence and has High Fence across the back bordering the ranch owners other Pasture and each side of the back Pasture is fenced about 3 miles per side open to neighbors on the ends. I would love to have 1 more mile per side. That would still leave us about 10 miles low.

If I had my own smaller ranch I would probably Fence it off. This place is almost 14000 acres so we have a lot of country to hold our deer in. We just Feed really hard all year more in the center of the ranch than anything and do our best to keep them in. We do have good neighbors but we are on different Managment plans so we focus our plan harder on the center of the ranch more than anything.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Another nice young buck showed up to the feeder. I love seeing those tweeners! 
These live trail cams are cool.


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> Well we agree on that last part and it's not a nerve I just don't know why hunters can't get on here and talk hunting without picking everyone apart.


I was not picking...just asked for clarification.


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

broadonrod said:


> Well we agree on that last part and it's not a nerve I just don't know why hunters can't get on here and talk hunting without picking everyone apart.


Because you always seem to start posting after cocktail hour :brew: 
BTW I agree with some of y'alls management practices , but being in the public eye will always draw some criticism, especially at 0 beer 30


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## Jamie (Aug 2, 2011)

For me personally....I tend to follow science when it comes to whitetail deer genetics rather some then perceived observations

As noted by biologists 

"Bryan Kinkel...a professional deer biologist/consultant. He used to work for Woods & Associates, as in Dr. Grant Woods. You see a lot of his articles in the QDMA magazine. 

I really respect his opinion because of all the deer biologist I've read over the years, his viewpoints mirrors most closely what I've witnessed over the years on all of our ranches..

A "cull buck" is a term hunters/managers use to identify a buck they don't believe is "up to par" and needs to be removed from the herd. Many hunters believe that by removing a small-antler buck, they are helping the genetics of the area--by removing that buck's "bad" genetics from the population.

Unfortunately, all too often the term is also used as an excuse to kill a young, small-antlered buck.

But here's the problem with the term and the practice:

Researchers have not deciphered the genetics of antlers yet. They do not know how heritable expressed genetic traits of antlers work (antler traits that can be passed on from one generation to another and displayed in later generations). Genetics and what heritable traits are expressed (grown) is a very, very complex process. It isn't the simple Mandelian process we all learned in High School biology.

So far, the only good data I've seen suggests a buck's mother passes on much of the genetic material that influences the shape and size of his antlers, not the buck's father. Now there are some studies showing that in selective breeding programs, the father's antler quality plays a role, but it is not as direct or as powerful as the mother's role.

So if hunters think that by removing a small-antlered buck, he won't pass those genetics down to his sons, they may be wrong. The "culprit" for his smaller antlers at maturity may be his mother, not his father.

Far more goes into how much of a buck's genetic pontential he actually expresses (grows). First, he won't express all of his pontential until he is mature. Second, every stress in life an individual buck experiences will reduce how much of his potential he expresses. Since all bucks in the wild experience stresses in life, no buck in the wild ever expresses their full genetic potential. So when looking at a buck in the wild, you really can't say anything about his genetic potential because what he is expressing is not his genetical potential. Is he expressing 50% of his potential or 80%? You can't tell. Is he mature? What stresses has he been subjected to?

Nutrition is also a major player in antler expression. A buck that does not have maximum nutritional intake cannot express as much of his pontential.

A landmark study was just completed a few years ago on a large section of the King Ranch involving culling of smaller antlered bucks. The researchers spent years shooting out the younger bucks that had the smallest antlers, to see if the antler size in mature bucks would increase. In theory they would have shot out the "poor" antler genetics. In reality, not only did antler size not increase, the productivity of the herd declined. By removing all those bucks, they reduced the sex ratio and buck age structure. The poorer herd dynamics had more of a negative than effect than any possible "positive" effect of culling. In essence, by culling smaller-antlered bucks, they harmed the herd.

In addition, whitetailed deer appear to be designed by Nature to spread their genetics far and wide. In fact, "maximized genetic diversity" in localized populations appears to be one of their unique survival mechanisms. One way they accomplish this is through dispersal. Young bucks disperse from their birth range and can travel considerable distances before choosing a new semi-permanent home range area. For an individual area,this means that many of the older bucks that live there were actually born somewhere else and dispersed into the area. This means that "culling" would have almost no effect, because the male offspring of the deer in your area leave and are replaced by young bucks from other areas.

"So why do I hear hunting shows on TV always taking about 'management' bucks?" you ask. Because in a true Trophy Management program, they are trying to keep herd density as low as possible so that each deer/buck has the highest percent of their diet made up of the best food sources (fewer mouths having to share the available best food resources). If you're going to remove animals, why not remove those bucks that have reached maturity and have displayed as much of the their genetic potential as they're probably ever going to express, and they still aren't what the program is looking for (are small-antlered for their age). Basically, when Trophy programs shoot "management bucks" they are simply removing another mouth from the environment. Why give critical food sources to an animal who has shown he will never be what they are trying to produce? Management bucks are not removed to improve genetics, they are removed to take a mouth out of the environment--a mouth that has been given the age and nutrition to show as much of it's potential as it ever will and it doesn't live up to expectations. In a true Trophy program, they have mature bucks to spare. Removing a few does no harm to herd dynamics.

The question is, outside of a high-fence or a 10,000+ acre Trophy Program, how many hunters/managers can honestly say they have mature bucks to spare? In these high-fence programs, as much as 30% of the bucks are 5 1/2+. On how many free-ranging situations can say the same thing? I know of none, again, unless they have many thousands of acres to work with. Personally, I would rather leave a small-antlered mature buck in a herd. His pressence positively influences the herd more than any of his genetics may be doing harm. Besides, Natural Selection chooses the heriditary traits that helps the population. Much DNA breeding research strongly indicates Nature does not select for large antlers, hence what size antlers a mature buck has plays no role in genetic herd performance/health. Simply getting to maturity means he has some genetic qualities Nature IS selecting for. I hope he passes those on!"


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## Mikeyhunts (Jun 4, 2007)

hunttexas said:


> Didn't you have Travis set up 30+/- feed pens about 200 yards off the fence line (draw some deer over) when you had a high fence put up? Or did you move pastures?


#jackwagoninstigator

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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Another nice young buck just popped up at that feeder I've been posting.









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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

This buck just walked in. 
What the heck! 









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## Mikeyhunts (Jun 4, 2007)

hunttexas said:


> I was not picking...just asked for clarification.


Who you trying to convince? That's all your doing is trolling.

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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Jamie said:


> For me personally....I tend to follow science when it comes to whitetail deer genetics rather some then perceived observations
> 
> As noted by biologists
> 
> ...


That is a pretty good write up.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Another young buck at this feeder. 
He's growing a double beam. I don't know this buck he is prob just a 2 year old.









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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

Mikeyhunts said:


> Who you trying to convince? That's all your doing is trolling.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Stop...

Questions are for clarifications...statements are for convincing.


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

Mikeyhunts said:


> #jackwagoninstigator
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


#wipeyourchinoff


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## hunttexas (Mar 28, 2017)

broadonrod said:


> This buck just walked in.
> What the heck!
> 
> 
> ...


Nice brows!!


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Great post Jaime. Grant's words echo my post #116. Taking management deer is about relieving pressure on the habitat and taking mouths off of the range. We will not effect genetics on a large scale through culling.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Post # 148 sounds very sensible. 
The terms cull vs management are very different. The more we learn, the more it seems the term cull is just an excuse, as culls don't exist.
It seems management would depend on how deep your pockets are for one thing, how much feed can you afford? Personally, looking at the condition of the land helps determine management kills; if there is a distinct browse line then some mouths should be removed. If your pockets are deep enough and the land isn't hurt, the number of management deer killed can be low. 
Years ago I decided fence height is not a big determination or guarantee of success. There is nothing morally or ethically wrong with high fence _on enough acres_. High fence doesn't grow big deer, age and nutrition does that. For sure if I was financially able to, a few thousand acres high fenced on outer perimeter would be my dream. It makes no sense to me to spend all that time and money so your neighbors benefit.


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## Jamie (Aug 2, 2011)

Another one of my favorite discussions by Bryan Kinkel about whitetail genetics



> Age is often stated as the most important aspect of antler growth, and in general it is. But nutrition is an equal, and at times, greater part of the equation. Age is given greater emphasis because even with great nutrition few young bucks are going to grow huge antlers (although I have seen a yearling buck from Iowa--awesome nutrition--that nearly made P&Y minimum).
> 
> However, in poor nutrition areas, even mature bucks won't produce huge antlers. I worked a research project on the coast of South Carolina where a high-fenced herd was managed to the point hunters were killing 10 1/2 year-old bucks. Yet not a single mature buck from that property ever produced antlers better than 125 gross. Why? Poor nutrition due to soil limitations (beach sand soils).
> 
> ...


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

Wow...... 16 pages of blurry pictures and incoherent comments..

interesting.


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## NWcurlew (Mar 9, 2012)

Culling may not work in Webb Co. but it works in McMullen... 

We busted our butts for ten years culling 8-pointers letting the bigger deer walk and built up a very respectable native deer herd. 2010 was the best year we ever had, we took our foot off the gas and started to kill a few trophies (all 7-8 yo bucks). That year we took 4 deer over 170, a 189 and took pictures of one in the mid 90's. The focus shifted from removing the inferior deer and within one generation all of the management efforts had gone out the window. 

Genetically the bucks in our area want to be a 130" eight pointer and it's an uphill battle to turn it around. Age and nutrition are are only two sides of the triangle and I wish it was just that easy.

The problem many have with culling is that very few people realize how intensely you have to cull to make a difference. Killing a handful of "cull" bucks every year will NEVER make a difference on your place. The bullet is your friend if used correctly and it takes a lot of them!

Not saying this to disagree with anyone I'm just speaking from my own personal experience.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

Perfect ! ^. Deer population mgt can be done by removing the undesirable traits. The public does not know how brutal it is and how long it will take (& least 5 yrs of strict , hardcore removal) . Joe Finely asked me one day "how many 8 points make Boone and crocket? " you can get some big ones but g4s get you there quicker . And who had $400,000 to spend on feed ?


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

mrsh978 said:


> Perfect ! ^. Deer population mgt can be done by removing the undesirable traits. The public does not know how brutal it is and how long it will take (& least 5 yrs of strict , hardcore removal) . Joe Finely asked me one day "how many 8 points make Boone and crocket? " you can get some big ones but g4s get you there quicker . And who had $400,000 to spend on feed ?


X2 yes right on !


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

mrsh978 said:


> Perfect ! ^. Deer population mgt can be done by removing the undesirable traits. The public does not know how brutal it is and how long it will take (& least 5 yrs of strict , hardcore removal) . Joe Finely asked me one day "how many 8 points make Boone and crocket? " you can get some big ones but g4s get you there quicker . And who had $400,000 to spend on feed ?


Just curious how many acres and how many hunters are on the leases with you? 
Also how many years have you been on that lease?


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

32,000 acres - 18 members. Been there 6 years


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

mrsh978 said:


> 32,000 acres - 18 members. Been there 6 years


That is a lot of land and almost 1800 acres per person. That's almost 3 times the size of our lease. Our family Pasture is divided from the regular lease and about 1800 that gets hunted. It wraps around our camp.

That's a lot of land you hunt! How many Managment/cull bucks and doe do you take each year to keep your numbers down?


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

The owner is in control of the harvest data - each year it is adjusted. Our input is given but he has the deciding factor. It is a large property ( great view of Mexico as we have 9 miles of river. ) . To me it's a last frontier of deer leases - low fence and very hands off owner in regards to "rules" - basic stuff , keep place clean , play by normal game laws . For me it's more for the experience than the ego of a modern day trophy hunter. Not slinging insults as I was exceptionally guilty of it in the 90s- there just seems to be too much expectations to produce "jinormous" deer . They were there waaaay before I could walk


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## sabiki (Aug 21, 2005)

mrsh978 said:


> The owner is in control of the harvest data - each year it is adjusted. Our input is given but he has the deciding factor. It is a large property ( great view of Mexico as we have 9 miles of river. ) . To me it's a last frontier of deer leases - low fence and very hands off owner in regards to "rules" - basic stuff , keep place clean , play by normal game laws . For me it's more for the experience than the ego of a modern day trophy hunter. Not slinging insults as I was exceptionally guilty of it in the 90s- there just seems to be too much expectations to produce "jinormous" deer . They were there waaaay before I could walk


hell yea! you get my vote for best reply on a thread yet! im getting tired of listening to people talk about how much they feed and how much they know and how big they can grow deer. its turned into a freakin clownfest. im on a large ranch with basic rules also--- and I have a BLAST every year--:doowapsta


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

mrsh978 said:


> Perfect ! ^. Deer population mgt can be done by removing the undesirable traits. The public does not know how brutal it is and how long it will take (& least 5 yrs of strict , hardcore removal) . Joe Finely asked me one day "how many 8 points make Boone and crocket? " you can get some big ones but g4s get you there quicker . And who had $400,000 to spend on feed ?





mrsh978 said:


> 32,000 acres - 18 members. Been there 6 years


Man, that is a big ranch, even by Texas standards.

Although 8's may not often make B & C, what percentage of B & C bucks had 8 points at some time in their life? I would think a lot.

To me the fact there is no magic formula or exact answer is what makes the management debate interesting.


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## NWcurlew (Mar 9, 2012)

broadonrod said:


> Just curious how many acres and how many hunters are on the leases with you?
> Also how many years have you been on that lease?


Not a lease, its family owned.

9500 under high fence and feeding +/- 1,000 pounds of protein per day. Second year back on cotton seed after a 7 year hiatus. Last year they ate 55k lbs of seed from Feb-Oct and this year we have already shoveled that much out...

Killed 85 bucks and 91 does this past season.

Yes its high fenced, but... NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL BRING A DEER ONTO THE PLACE AS LONG AS I HAVE A SAY IN THE MATTER!


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

NWcurlew said:


> Not a lease, its family owned.
> 
> 9500 under high fence and feeding +/- 1,000 pounds of protein per day. Second year back on cotton seed after a 7 year hiatus. Last year they ate 55k lbs of seed from Feb-Oct and this year we have already shoveled that much out...
> 
> ...


That sounds like a beautiful place.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

mrsh978 said:


> The owner is in control of the harvest data - each year it is adjusted. Our input is given but he has the deciding factor. It is a large property ( great view of Mexico as we have 9 miles of river. ) . To me it's a last frontier of deer leases - low fence and very hands off owner in regards to "rules" - basic stuff , keep place clean , play by normal game laws . For me it's more for the experience than the ego of a modern day trophy hunter. Not slinging insults as I was exceptionally guilty of it in the 90s- there just seems to be too much expectations to produce "jinormous" deer . They were there waaaay before I could walk


Sounds a lot like ours except the owner of our place allows us to manage it how we see fit. They are great folks. I love seeing how big deer can get in the wild. That is the number one reason we leave so many alive. It has taught me a lot by taking pictures instead of pulling the trigger. 
My group of hunters all love deer, bringing guest and just being on the ranch.
We give away more deer to kids and veterans each year than we take as lease members just to see the smiles.
We sell a few hunts to help with expenses there are only 6 actual trophy hunters on our place and a couple of Managment hunters.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Man, that is a big ranch, even by Texas standards.
> 
> Although 8's may not often make B & C, what percentage of B & C bucks had 8 points at some time in their life? I would think a lot.
> 
> To me the fact there is no magic formula or exact answer is what makes the management debate interesting.


I have never entered any of my deer in B&C I have never really cared much about that stuff. On the other hand 3 of of the 10-200" deer we have taken in the past 5 seasons were at one time "8 points over 5 years old". 2 of them were 8 points for 2 consecutive years before they were taken as 200"+ bucks.

Big 8s make breeders on our ranch. I like big frame no matter how many points they have.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Brett, serious question for me but maybe obvious to others: Of the 200" class that have been killed, were they still dominant in fighting and breeding? What I am wondering to myself is, are they possibly past their prime in some ways before the antlers get really huge?


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Brett, serious question for me but maybe obvious to others: Of the 200" class that have been killed, were they still dominant in fighting and breeding? What I am wondering to myself is, are they possibly past their prime in some ways before the antlers get really huge?


Yes. They typically fall at 7-8 years old them depend almost 100% on supplement feed and pop. They slow down in breeding at 9 imo at least on our place. But... they still breed. They get smart and stop fighting every day... they do fight but only when they seem to "own " their doe. 
Our hardest breeders are 6-7 year olds. We typically leave them and let them breed to assure their genetics remain strong on the ranch. We shoot most bucks 200" at 9 years old.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Brett, serious question for me but maybe obvious to others: Of the 200" class that have been killed, were they still dominant in fighting and breeding? What I am wondering to myself is, are they possibly past their prime in some ways before the antlers get really huge?


Let me reword this a little. They are dominate at the feed stations. They are dominate when they get have a die truly ready to breed. 
They are passive as far as 3-6 year old bucks are more aggressive. At least that's what I fell is going on. It changes month to month.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

Knowing the deers every move , every stumble , hickup - just takes the fun( anticipation / excitement) hunting - seeing a 180" Webb county framed deer walk across a road that you have never seen before is the ticket for me. I'm in the minority on this one. It's happened only a few times in all the hours I've guarded the vast sea of brush but it is the magic that has driven me as a hunter over the years .


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

mrsh978 said:


> Knowing the deers every move , every stumble , hickup - just takes the fun( anticipation / excitement) hunting - seeing a 180" Webb county framed deer walk across a road that you have never seen before is the ticket for me. I'm in the minority on this one. It's happened only a few times in all the hours I've guarded the vast sea of brush but it is the magic that has driven me as a hunter over the years .


We average about 3 members a week at our place. We run cameras on about 10 of our 33 stands a year. The element of surprise is the most fun of all. We figure we see half of our bucks per year. New bucks every single hunt. 
It is fun keeping track of what we can. Hundred of hours in the stands with lots of video is an important part of our plan. 
No science on our place. Not even MLD. 
Are you under an MLD program? 
I'm sure glad we are not.. not yet anyway.


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## finz (Aug 18, 2010)

í ½í±í ½í±


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## finz (Aug 18, 2010)

That was suppose to be a thumbs up!! Not sure what happened!


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

finz said:


> That was suppose to be a thumbs up!! Not sure what happened!


Wrong finger Finz. It blocked it lol!


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## finz (Aug 18, 2010)

broadonrod said:


> Wrong finger Finz. It blocked it lol!


Lmao, **** phones!!


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## WEBB COUNTY BUZZ (Jul 13, 2012)

It's Christmas in July when you run trail cams, yes you know a lot of your deer but **** it's fun watching em grow 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

WEBB COUNTY BUZZ said:


> It's Christmas in July when you run trail cams, yes you know a lot of your deer but **** it's fun watching em grow
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I'm starting to enjoy it more my self. You know how I feel about cameras but I can't wait to see pictures on the couple I have going now.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

We are not on mld. It's a mgt tool and is beneficial but it REALLY puts pressure on the herd. But to remove the undesired genetics ( especially on large average) you have to. Did in on Callaghan- it gets to be a very large undertaking to use properly . South Texas deer population has expanded since the screw worms were eradicated in the early 70's . I remember them dropping the sterile males in white boxes all over south Texas . Deer density is so high now


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

mrsh978 said:


> We are not on mld. It's a mgt tool and is beneficial but it REALLY puts pressure on the herd. But to remove the undesired genetics ( especially on large average) you have to. Did in on Callaghan- it gets to be a very large undertaking to use properly . South Texas deer population has expanded since the screw worms were eradicated in the early 70's . I remember them dropping the sterile males in white boxes all over south Texas . Deer density is so high now


Not many ranches south that are not MLD anymore.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

We are not MLD. Owner doesent want any part of it and we dont either. We feel we are much better "in touch" With what is going on with the deer than part time biologist. Not knocking the MLD plans. Its what ever you are happy with.


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## pacontender (Jun 26, 2004)

I could do with or without MLD. However we make our own harvest recommendations. Never had a state biologist step foot on the ranch for that reason.



CHARLIE said:


> We are not MLD. Owner doesent want any part of it and we dont either. We feel we are much better "in touch" With what is going on with the deer than part time biologist. Not knocking the MLD plans. Its what ever you are happy with.


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## B&C (Jul 23, 2010)

pacontender said:


> we make our own harvest recommendations. Never had a state biologist step foot on the ranch for that reason.


Same for us. The season gets a little long but the extra time can help track down some of the bucks that give us the slip. We still have multiple bucks every season that we cant get on the ground. We primarily hunt weekends.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

B&C said:


> Same for us. The season gets a little long but the extra time can help track down some of the bucks that give us the slip. We still have multiple bucks every season that we cant get on the ground. We primarily hunt weekends.


3 of our trophy buck last year took 112 total sits in stands. 
44 hunts to get on my deer-bow 
32 hunts to get on bobs-gun 
36 hunts to get on Johns-bow 
There were others that took 3-35 sittings as well. 
We managed getting on every buck we were after before season was up but some were pretty tough.


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## B&C (Jul 23, 2010)

broadonrod said:


> 3 of our trophy buck last year took 112 total sits in stands.
> 44 hunts to get on my deer-bow
> 32 hunts to get on bobs-gun
> 36 hunts to get on Johns-bow
> ...


Weekend hunters would have had a harder time closing the deal on those bucks.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

B&C said:


> Weekend hunters would have had a harder time closing the deal on those bucks.


Yes they would!
We had a Managment buck take 35 hunts with a gun as well.
He finally got him.


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## GEAUXcoast (Apr 12, 2015)

*Cull?*

Hard to tell age from initial pic (I'm not reading thru 11 pages of follow ups), but it's all dependent on age. If you've watched him for a few years (we don't watch 8s beyond 4.5), then he's a cull. If younger than that, then let him grow.



broadonrod said:


> This beautiful buck was passed last year and the year before. This is his picture from 2 years ago. You can see he has one nice 5" tine on his left!
> His mass is not much but what a buck none the less.
> I'm just going to wing it and say it's just pure D great genetics.
> I think he has 7 storable points in this picture trying hard to be an 8.
> ...


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## BLUE CHIP (Jul 20, 2006)

Brent,
I have a much smaller place in Dilley that I have owned since 2001. We have won numerous contests over the years, but if we are lucky , we can kill one 180 to 200 per year. It is only 640 acres and yes it is high fenced because of neighbors. You are a lot smarter than me, because I would have shot the deer in question before he reached the age of 10. It just goes to show that age and nutrition are the best management practices out there.
By the way , I live in the same subdivision that you do.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

BLUE CHIP said:


> Brent,
> I have a much smaller place in Dilley that I have owned since 2001. We have won numerous contests over the years, but if we are lucky , we can kill one 180 to 200 per year. It is only 640 acres and yes it is high fenced because of neighbors. You are a lot smarter than me, because I would have shot the deer in question before he reached the age of 10. It just goes to show that age and nutrition are the best management practices out there.
> By the way , I live in the same subdivision that you do.


A lot if them don't make trophies but a lot of them surely surprise us. 
Give me a call tomorrow I just PMed you my cell number.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

This buck I posted originally is finishing out as a great buck. 
He ended up breaking his main beam during his growth but he is still a youngster anyway. Careful what you cull if your feeding them right. 









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