# Coast Guard issues warnings on tunnel hull boats



## FishAfrica (Jan 23, 2010)

Great article with a great video of Coast Guard demonstrating dangers of hard turns in tunnel hull bay boats. The second video has the demonstration:

http://news4sanantonio.com/news/loc...-leads-to-coast-guard-warning-about-bay-boats


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Always heard about swapping ends....luckily never experienced it.


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## txshockwave (Mar 6, 2007)

And that's why they make kill a switch.


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## Kenner21 (Aug 25, 2005)

Would a kill switch have saved that girls life? Sounds like the boat operator wasn't ejected.


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## rat race (Aug 10, 2006)

Tuck the motor and ease off the throttle, problem solved.

I've been running one since 06, never had a problem. Never even got loose in a turn. Just need to practice some common since.


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## fishin shallow (Jul 31, 2005)

Jacked up and trimming out while turning during the test...Don't think that would be the only flats boat that would swap ends.


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## paragod (Aug 25, 2006)

I can make a bass boat do it ! SLOW DOWN!


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## D HOGG (Jul 2, 2012)

Don't know about you guys, but I don't need any more government in my life thank you ....

It's the operators fault not the hull .!


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## boltmaster (Aug 16, 2011)

I've seen a SW stealth model do it Once , never saw anyone thrown out but it looks spooky to watch.


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## daniel7930 (Jun 16, 2011)

What kind of flats boat was it they tested


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## Stuart (May 21, 2004)

daniel7930 said:


> What kind of flats boat was it they tested


Explorer or one of the many other models like it.


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## Stuart (May 21, 2004)

D HOGG said:


> Don't know about you guys, but I don't need any more government in my life thank you ....
> 
> It's the operators fault not the hull .!


So you were okay with the Bronco II , early Ford Explorers as well. Smh.


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## daniel7930 (Jun 16, 2011)

Stuart said:


> Explorer or one of the many other models like it.


Ok. I heard of the boats like that swapping ends. But when they say flat boats. There a lot in that category I never felt my shallow sport would swap end. Not saying it can't. But never felt like I would lose it


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## caddis (Jan 22, 2012)

My guess is the captain either fell or was back from the help or they wouldn't be asking for the new law and naming it after her.
25mph isn't all that fast... What a bummer.
I've heard of this a few times and, at least every time someone's mentioned it to me they said "Explorer style hull" although I'm sure others can do it.
Does it have to do with bow-steer?


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## dk2429 (Mar 27, 2015)

I've never had an issue... If I'm taking a sharp turn I just trim down and throttle down. No issue


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## Lone-Star (Dec 19, 2009)

daniel7930 said:


> Ok. I heard of the boats like that swapping ends. But when they say flat boats. There a lot in that category I never felt my shallow sport would swap end. Not saying it can't. But never felt like I would lose it


It's the tunnel v design , the v digs in and the back end swings around . I've seen it happen to one of these boats going in a straight line down the ICW .


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## D HOGG (Jul 2, 2012)

Stuart said:


> So you were okay with the Bronco II , early Ford Explorers as well. Smh.


Im ok with a grown *** adult making their own decisions and taking responsibility for their own actions. The only thing wrong with these accidents was the operators, either not enough experience operating the boat or trying to hotrod.!

There's a difference between Ford design flaws and what this story is about. Compare apples to apples .! There's nothing wrong with the hulls they tested .!
Shaking MY Head At Your Dumbass .!.!.!


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## flounderdaddy (Aug 2, 2009)

I own a Majek Texas Slam. This boat will do that also. You have to NO the limits of your boat. Be smart. Any fool can get in a bind in any boat.


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## D HOGG (Jul 2, 2012)

flounderdaddy said:


> I own a Majek Texas Slam. This boat will do that also. You have to NO the limits of your boat. Be smart. Any fool can get in a bind in any boat.


 ^^^ Common sense right here ^^^


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## richard1075 (Feb 16, 2015)

flounderdaddy said:


> I own a Majek Texas Slam. This boat will do that also. You have to NO the limits of your boat. Be smart. Any fool can get in a bind in any boat.


I also own a Texas Slam and I'm not doing WOT turns with it. I always wear the lanyard and a PFD when underway.


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## Skiff (Jun 5, 2004)

Very informative!

Education is definitely needed for operating any hull. I've run my Shoalwater since '09 and it's my favorite so far. It's not great at anything, but good at just about everything. I had the good fortune of having the seller of my first tunnel boat show me how these designs can get away from you in turns. Not everyone has that luxury and these type of events can definitely happen. The visuals in the videos are really a good example for those wanting to see what it looks like to swap ends. I was in a Kenner non-tunnel and the captain made a hard starboard turn that swapped us around. No injuries, but a definite eye opener on what can happen.
Prayers for those families and like said in previous posts.....slow down.


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## rat race (Aug 10, 2006)

Definitely not a design "flaw" but the design (and others) can swap ends if you make it. As mentioned know the hull and how to run it properly. If you don't know how to run it ask someone who has more experience than you.


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## Funk (Jun 14, 2012)

Lots of non fishing boats swap ends. My Ski Centurion Tournament ski Boat did it all the time. It's actually very common of all tournament boats. 

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## Stuart (May 21, 2004)

Yes, most any boat can be made to swap ends, but few do it with the snapping effect of the tunnel vee's that were so popular for many years. Many, many posts on 2cool about them and it's not just going fast through turns. Palmsup on this board was traveling with his plate down and hit a wake just right and his swapped ends. Didn't have his kill switch on and almost lost his leg.

Call it a bad design, good design, design flaw, unique design, it doesn't really matter to me. To dismiss all the incidents to operator error is not accurate.


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## Txredfish (Oct 27, 2010)

Back in the 80's I fished bass tournaments. Most tournament rules stated when underway with big motor, kill switch for driver and life jackets for passenger and driver were required to be used. If caught without, disqualified from tournament. Now, I don't do this, but should. I will start again after reading these posts. Things can happen too fast to try to put them on.


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## A Salt Shaker (May 7, 2013)

There are 2 different videos, the first is the news video and the link goes to the testing. 

In the testing video boats 1 and 2 it looks like one is an El Pescador. I find it somewhat concerning that all the tests on boat 1 and 2 don't appear to have any weight in the stern and in fact 160 lbs was added to the front seat? The motors are jacked all the way up and trimmed out. When they tried to duplicate it on boat 3 there are 3 occupants (one being the captain without a PFD) at the leaning post with the motor jacked down or without a jackplate. 

I know that under the right conditions I can make it happen to most any of the boats the I have ever owned including my deep vees with a considerable deadrise.

I wish they would have set the test up the same.

I personally have zero issues with a lanyard law and I am about as anti big brother as any out there.

It's a shame that tragedy has to trigger the discussion.

Salt


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## A Salt Shaker (May 7, 2013)

There are 2 different videos, the first is the news video and the link goes to the testing. 

In the testing video boats 1 and 2 it looks like one is an El Pescador. I find it somewhat concerning that all the tests on boat 1 and 2 don't appear to have any weight in the stern and in fact 160 lbs was added to the front seat? The motors are jacked all the way up and trimmed out. When they tried to duplicate it on boat 3 there are 3 occupants (one being the captain without a PFD) at the leaning post with the motor jacked down or without a jackplate. 

I know that under the right conditions I can make it happen to most any of the boats the I have ever owned including my deep vees with a considerable deadrise.

I wish they would have set the test up the same.

I personally have zero issues with a lanyard law and I am about as anti big brother as any out there.

It's a shame that tragedy has to trigger the discussion.

Salt


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## Slimshady (Jan 11, 2005)

D HOGG said:


> Im ok with a grown *** adult making their own decisions and taking responsibility for their own actions. The only thing wrong with these accidents was the operators, either not enough experience operating the boat or trying to hotrod.!
> 
> There's a difference between Ford design flaws and what this story is about. Compare apples to apples .! There's nothing wrong with the hulls they tested .!
> Shaking MY Head At Your Dumbass .!.!.!


Keep shaking your head but personally know of two deaths as of a result of the design. I also personally owned one of the mentioned hulls in the 90's and will argue operator error as the issue. It's hard to "hot rod" in a hull thats slow to begin with. I can say with confidence no matter what your skill level is your day swapping ends will come. I've driven all of them up to a 22' El Pescador and the worst handling is the 17' - 19' Explorer, Baysport. etc. with key slot transom. The longer versions don't tend to make the swap as quick as the smaller hulls from what I've experienced.

There is a actual desgin flaw by taking a existing mono hull (19' Mako) and adding a tunnel with key slot. It's a very nice riding hull with shallow water capablilty but loses control with less chine and motor in the water allowing less bow rise and more hook thus causing it to swap ends. Sure you can make most any boat react in a similar way but not a easy and unexpected as this design. No other boat I've driven in the last 15yrs comes close to these characteristics.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Flaws*



Slimshady said:


> Keep shaking your head but personally know of two deaths as of a result of the design. I also personally owned one of the mentioned hulls in the 90's and will argue operator error as the issue. It's hard to "hot rod" in a hull thats slow to begin with. I can say with confidence no matter what your skill level is your day swapping ends will come. I've driven all of them up to a 22' El Pescador and the worst handling is the 17' - 19' Explorer, Baysport. etc. with key slot transom. The longer versions don't tend to make the swap as quick as the smaller hulls from what I've experienced.
> 
> There is a actual desgin flaw by taking a existing mono hull (19' Mako) and adding a tunnel with key slot. It's a very nice riding hull with shallow water capablilty but loses control with less chine and motor in the water allowing less bow rise and more hook thus causing it to swap ends. Sure you can make most any boat react in a similar way but not a easy and unexpected as this design. No other boat I've driven in the last 15yrs comes close to these characteristics.


X2, well said!


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## D HOGG (Jul 2, 2012)

Slimshady said:


> Keep shaking your head but personally know of two deaths as of a result of the design. I also personally owned one of the mentioned hulls in the 90's and will argue operator error as the issue. It's hard to "hot rod" in a hull thats slow to begin with. I can say with confidence no matter what your skill level is your day swapping ends will come. I've driven all of them up to a 22' El Pescador and the worst handling is the 17' - 19' Explorer, Baysport. etc. with key slot transom. The longer versions don't tend to make the swap as quick as the smaller hulls from what I've experienced.
> 
> There is a actual desgin flaw by taking a existing mono hull (19' Mako) and adding a tunnel with key slot. It's a very nice riding hull with shallow water capablilty but loses control with less chine and motor in the water allowing less bow rise and more hook thus causing it to swap ends. Sure you can make most any boat react in a similar way but not a easy and unexpected as this design. No other boat I've driven in the last 15yrs comes close to these characteristics.


 Only smh at Stuarts comment I was quoting. I hate to see anyone loose there life, sustain a serious injury or even slightly injured in any type of accident and my heart goes out to these family's. But for the father to make the comment that "They shouldn't manufacture them anymore," referring to Texas flats boats or bay boats, is way over the top. Just another one of our liberties for Libtards to come after.

My skill level is, awareness, on any boat, in or on any other type of vehicle as well .!

I've been in boats that swapped ends, more than once, but it was due to how we were running, we anticipated it and we were prepared. If a hull is going to loose control and swap ends without the hull to water surface being compromised, then there is a serious design flaw. If there was such a hull on the market it wouldn't be anymore and for obvious reasons.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the operator issue. And you can hotrod any watercraft, unless your HP to weight ratio is way under what it should be. We don't know the particulars of the boats, or the conditions at the time of the accidents and that leaves us all just speculating.

I haven't been on them all, but have been on a lot and the first time on a boat that im not familiar with and or a operator and I'm on guard. Call it instinct, over cautiousness, paranoid or whatever.

For me, its knee jerk reactions to a handful of terrible accidents that could lead to another law telling me what I should or shouldn't do or what I should or shouldn't wear. We put our lives in the hands of idiots every day when we get on the road or even at work. At some point we have to take responsibility for our own actions. Whether as a passenger or operator and unfortunately some people such as the young lady that lost her life wont get the chance to practice this life lesson sometimes learned the hard way. Any of us that have learned this the hard way knows the Lord has blessed us all with a second chance and may God bless the ones that haven't and their family's.

D.


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## gman1772 (Jul 15, 2012)

I read through every post on here. I've owned at one time of another just about every incarnation of a "Texas flats boat" ever made. Shoalwater/Explorer/Shallow Sports/Majek RFL. 

I would not say the incident causing the death of the young lady was due to helmsman error so much as helmsman ignorance. All of the boats I mentioned were more than capable of abruptly flaring out and "swapping ends". The ones without full hull chines and sharp V prows are particularly susceptible. If a helmsman does not know this and operates the boat inappropriately sooner or later the unintended flaring will occur.

My simple rules for operating my Shallow Sport.

1. PFD & kill switch lanyard are in place while under way.
2. Left hand on helm and right hand on the binnacle throttle while running at speed. 
3. Don't push it. If my Shallow Sport is sliding in a turn I throttle back. See rule 2.
4. Don't get stupid with the trim/jack plate. More on that later. 
5. Everybody on the boat stays behind the console when under way. Again. More on that later.

The key slotted transom/ tunnel hull/ console forward of balance vessels that we know as "Texas flats boats" are specialized purpose built vessels. They do an excellent job of getting fishermen into and usually out of shoaling water that would ground a conventional V hull chine vessel in a heartbeat. By the very nature of their design flats boats are touchy when running at speed. The key slot transom reduces displacement at the stern. A good thing for a hole shot. Bad for executing turns. The tunnel in the hull exacerbates this issue. Moving as much weight forward as possible is icing on the cake. Full hull chines help counter the instability but will not cure it. Getting that last few MPH by jacking the motor up or trimming the motor out until you are almost in full porpoise mode is just plain dumb. Keep your outboard trimmed in and your jack plate down. Unless you are navigating shoaling waters keep your crew in the back of the boat. The more displacement you have at the stern the better the turning stability. And if you do "swap ends" your crew will be where the prop isn't when they hit the water. 

I'll get off of my soapbox now.


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## FAT TIRE (Nov 25, 2004)

Slimshady said:


> Keep shaking your head but personally know of two deaths as of a result of the design. I also personally owned one of the mentioned hulls in the 90's and will argue operator error as the issue. It's hard to "hot rod" in a hull thats slow to begin with. I can say with confidence no matter what your skill level is your day swapping ends will come. I've driven all of them up to a 22' El Pescador and the worst handling is the 17' - 19' Explorer, Baysport. etc. with key slot transom. The longer versions don't tend to make the swap as quick as the smaller hulls from what I've experienced.
> 
> There is a actual desgin flaw by taking a existing mono hull (19' Mako) and adding a tunnel with key slot. It's a very nice riding hull with shallow water capablilty but loses control with less chine and motor in the water allowing less bow rise and more hook thus causing it to swap ends. Sure you can make most any boat react in a similar way but not a easy and unexpected as this design. No other boat I've driven in the last 15yrs comes close to these characteristics.


Its called bow steer, it can happen in any hull design. The T/V design with its sharp entry and flat stern with the motor tucked up in a tunnel will do it easier for sure. It was designed to run and get up in shallow water not as a general purpose bay boat. Like anything else it was designed to do a specific job, if the operator is unfamiliar with operating characteristics, and/or loads and trims the hull incorrectly it will swap ends. If you understand why it swaps ends and drive the boat within its limitations it does its job very well.


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## sheldonasvoboda (Apr 23, 2015)

scary stuff, if you are'nt constantly watching for the conditions mentioned above you're asking for trouble, wearing a kill switch should be muscle memory. I know that when I have kids on my RFL I am a nervous wreck
where are the video links?


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

First thing I did on my home built boat was push it to the extremes. Drove the bow down, got the stern light put it through some hard sliding turns. I'm still learning that boat so when I have passengers on board, I cruise easy, no hard turns, lookout for rouge waves or wakes, and everybody seated or holding on ... captain is always responsible.

It's like cars, they all have limitations, you can't drive a beetle like a Ferrari.


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## Slimshady (Jan 11, 2005)

I agree the owners of any of these boats should know what they have and should treat it accordingly. I'm the first to accept concequences of my actions. In the case of one of the young girls from San Antonio the operator didn't own the boat. You shouldn't have to drive a vessel with the level of perfection that some have argued to make it back to the dock safely. That's like saying don't stop too quickly in a Ford Pinto or it's your fault for the explosion. Too many accidents with one common denominator.


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## Smallfrye (May 21, 2004)

*Flaco aqua*

Since we are all expert helmsman and know better than the test engineers, please reconsider that in many cases, loss of control results from factors outside the ordinary. 
My experience with both Shallow Sport and Shoalwater boats is that when they are running out of the water, they may as well be flying saucers. This is not a design flaw, it is intentional. Turning with side slip is one thing we do all the time but just touch the skeg on a reef, the bow dives, bites in and the stern comes around faster than you can react. Same thing when running into a following sea. Let the bow hit the back of a wave and the stern swaps ends, all aboard go flying over the side. These cases are exasperated when running with the motor up but that's why we run this type of hull.
The shallow water of the Laguna Madre has a log of such cases that resulted in maiming or death. In most every case, the injured were " totally surprised" by the boat's reaction. Many were experienced helmsman with many hours on the boats. 
Bottom line: know you boat's performance but don't count on your ability to control it. Wear the kill switch, require all on board WEAR their PFD while running and require everyone be seated and holding on to something secure, ... or idle until there is compliance. You are the captain, and have the responsibility for your passengers.


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Good thread and good discussion.

As a new boat owner....reading these posts have made me think a bit harder about the dangers and what to look out for on the water. I've been on the water my whole life, but running a flats boat is new to me.

Be it operator error or design flaws....it's my responsibility to know my boat and protect my passengers/self.

I have also realized that 50 mph is plenty fast....and in the shallows I don't mind running 20-25. Slow down and enjoy the scenery.

Thanks for the thread.


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## juan valdez (Jun 21, 2014)

gman1772 said:


> My simple rules for operating my Shallow Sport.
> 
> 1. PFD & kill switch lanyard are in place while under way.
> 2. Left hand on helm and right hand on the binnacle throttle while running at speed.
> ...


i try to follow these same rules, though i dont keep people behind the console. i guess i never put much thought in to that. though often i only fish with one or two other people.

are the key slot hulls more prone than the non key? for instance, i notice the smaller mowdy's have keyslot where the 22 does not. so would the 17 (or is it 19?) be "more" prone than the 22?
what about hulls like blue waves and gulf coasts? are these prone to the 180* also?

i too keep the jack plate relatively low while running, usually around 2 and then trim the motor. i dont go above 2.5 or so unless i'm putting in or out of a shallow unfamiliar area

25 mph is a lot slower than anything i remember previously reading. i always thought it was at high speed wtih high jack plate and sharp turns. that motor looks really high in those vids.

i was hesitant for the last few years to try getting in to pringle lake due to the sharp turns and tunnel v issue. tried it last weekend and it wasnt bad. just kept it slow and adjusted throttle as needed, also jack plate all the way down. though i did zig instead of zag and planted it in the mud.

i dont think any legislation needs to come out of this though. it should be up to the individual to decide. 
i couldnt hear the video, only read the article, did only the girl come out or did everyone?

edit: i remember one time when a teen i was crusing down the ICW at full speed on a sea doo. all of a sudden it hooked left, i went flying off right. skipped across the water and then below. man that was crazy. was doing about 55 or so. thankfully no prop to hit me.
i recently owned a yamaha gp1300r and i believe on some of those hulls, the older ones i think, had an issue with the pump area catching water and would also hook. toss people off at high speeds, some of these guys had skis running well in to the 80s or low 90s. this was also while running straight and calm waters.


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## Exploder (Sep 29, 2006)

I had an Explorer 230TV. It would swap ends. Never happened to me and I was never in the boat when it happened. My dad swapped ends twice and a friend of mine swapped ends once. Nobody was ever thrown out though. I watched my friend do it while he was coming to pick me up from a wade. It happens when the jack plate is way up and making a sharp turn. I could feel it start slipping and would back off to keep it from happening. If the jack plate is down and the motor in the water, it would hold and not try to swap ends on you during a sharp turn. Like everyone says, you just have to know your boat and be sensible.


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

I had two boats that were prone to this. An El Pescador, which was very prone to it, and, a 22' Blue Wave. The Blue wave caught us off guard one day coming back on a rough following sea, we were quartering the waves and the bow dug in and transom swung around. In an instant, were were going 18o degrees the opposite direction. 

After that happened I always slowed way down on a following sea and made sure the engine was jacked all the way down.


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## rat race (Aug 10, 2006)

Exploder said:


> I had an Explorer 230TV. It would swap ends. Never happened to me and I was never in the boat when it happened. My dad swapped ends twice and a friend of mine swapped ends once. Nobody was ever thrown out though. I watched my friend do it while he was coming to pick me up from a wade. It happens when the jack plate is way up and making a sharp turn. I could feel it start slipping and would back off to keep it from happening. If the jack plate is down and the motor in the water, it would hold and not try to swap ends on you during a sharp turn. Like everyone says, you just have to know your boat and be sensible.


This is the whole point. Know your boats limits. Don't let anyone drive the boat who doesn't.

As to what the importance of the human element vs. design, I offer this fact. Take your hull of choice hang the biggest motor on it you can, raise the jackplate to the highest setting and put it in the water with no one on board. I guarantee it won't swap ends.


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

what about hulls like blue waves and gulf coasts? are these prone to the 180* also?



No, the main reason being they don't have the big "V" like the ones mentioned. That's what initiates the problem, the big V grabs into a wave or wake and around comes the back. Like stated above, the 19' versions are way more prone than the 21's, and sure a lot of it is driver error, but it's the reason I would never own one.


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## Exploder (Sep 29, 2006)

I have a 23' Shoalwater cat now and its worlds of difference in how it handles. It has a tendency to slide more than bite on very sharp turns but I still have it burned into my brain on keeping it from swapping ends even though it wont. Just a natural reaction during tight turns. I slow way down and keep the jack plate as low as possible.


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## Puddle_Jumper (Jun 30, 2014)

Very sorry for the family but those tests were messed up... Like others have said... Motor jacked up and bow weighted Sure it will swap ends running fast and turning hard...Ya know have to know your rig.. I have run a Shoalwater sport 17 since 98.. NEVER swapped ends on me .. Darn sure don't need more government regulations or fees !!


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## juan valdez (Jun 21, 2014)

SSST said:


> what about hulls like blue waves and gulf coasts? are these prone to the 180* also?
> 
> No, the main reason being they don't have the big "V" like the ones mentioned. That's what initiates the problem, the big V grabs into a wave or wake and around comes the back. Like stated above, the 19' versions are way more prone than the 21's, and sure a lot of it is driver error, but it's the reason I would never own one.


that's what i was kinda thinking, in regards to the V


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> No, the main reason being they don't have the big "V" like the ones mentioned. That's what initiates the problem, the big V grabs into a wave or wake and around comes the back. Like stated above, the 19' versions are way more prone than the 21's, and sure a lot of it is driver error, but it's the reason I would never own one.


Only if you have the motor jacked up so that there is no rudder in the water. I've been running the tunnel V's since 96 and have never had a problem and I have a LOT of hours in these boats.

Know how to run your tunnel V and you won't have a problem.

TH


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## FAT TIRE (Nov 25, 2004)

http://www.docksidereports.com/rough_water_seamanship_1.htm


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## Longshot270 (Aug 5, 2011)

This is why people used to start with a dinky little boat to putt around, then gradually step up in size and power. Specialized craft will buck you if you don't respect them and those high powered boogie boards are no different.

But 180 prone boats are nothing new. If they wanted to see a 180 they should check out my grandfather's old 14' aluminum boat. Up front it has a deep V and it is almost completely flat across the rear. Slap my gimbal mounted longtail on and you aren't going over 15 mph.


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## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

that explorer type hull design sucks. people get trapped into a sales pitching thinking they have a flat bottom tunnel hull boat that can get up in 4 inches, and can take big water. best of both worlds! hell yeah! 

that hull design is flawed in the fact it's highly likely to sheer in anything other than head on waves. sorry. regardless of what the el pescador ad says, that's not a boat for big water and 6" on the same day. it's a highly compromised hull design that kind of sucks at everything equally.


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## Robalo Guy (Jun 21, 2010)

I am familiar with this event and without getting emotional, I will add just a few things. The operator of the boat is an experienced boater. He is a responsible father and was taught a lesson no person should have to suffer. I don't wish what he still goes through on anybody. I feel the same for the girl's family. I never spoke to him about it but my understanding is that there were 3 girls near the front of the boat. They were also running at a moderate speed in a following sea. Both of these facts, in addition to the design of the boat, are what caused the incident. I also assume the motor was jacked up, but that is pure speculation on my part. 

Message board chatter is meaningless and inconsequential for anonymous posters, but I don't think anybody who personally knows the guy would make derogatory comments about him or his ability to run a boat. We should all just be aware this can happen and be better boat operators because of it.


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## southbay (Aug 30, 2010)

fishin shallow said:


> Jacked up and trimming out while turning during the test...Don't think that would be the only flats boat that would swap ends.


Exactly! Probably "ANY" bass, flats or bay boat will swap ends if the operator doesn't know how to properly negotiate a turn. One thing for sure is the prop must be in the water.


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

Trouthunter said:


> Only if you have the motor jacked up so that there is no rudder in the water. I've been running the tunnel V's since 96 and have never had a problem and I have a LOT of hours in these boats.
> 
> Know how to run your tunnel V and you won't have a problem.
> 
> TH


I understand all this, but not everyone who buys one is that experienced. Anyway you look at it, the design of the boat makes it possible for this to happen, period.


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

southbay said:


> Exactly! Probably "ANY" bass, flats or bay boat will swap ends if the operator doesn't know how to properly negotiate a turn. One thing for sure is the prop must be in the water.


I'd like to see the boat i run swap ends, or the majority of the boats on the water for that matter, just not happening i don't care how hard you try.


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## sheldonasvoboda (Apr 23, 2015)

so is the V up front the common issue? I have always been wary of my 21RFL swapping on me


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

sheldonasvoboda said:


> so is the V up front the common issue? I have always been wary of my 21RFL swapping on me


Yep, your RFL may slide all over the place, but it won't be sudden enough to chunk you out.


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## mikedeleon (Aug 9, 2010)

Robalo Guy said:


> I am familiar with this event and without getting emotional, I will add just a few things. The operator of the boat is an experienced boater. He is a responsible father and was taught a lesson no person should have to suffer. I don't wish what he still goes through on anybody. I feel the same for the girl's family. I never spoke to him about it but my understanding is that there were 3 girls near the front of the boat. They were also running at a moderate speed in a following sea. Both of these facts, in addition to the design of the boat, are what caused the incident. I also assume the motor was jacked up, but that is pure speculation on my part.
> 
> Message board chatter is meaningless and inconsequential for anonymous posters, but I don't think anybody who personally knows the guy would make derogatory comments about him or his ability to run a boat. We should all just be aware this can happen and be better boat operators because of it.


Well said.


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## Slimshady (Jan 11, 2005)

It amazes me so many will argue the problems that exist with the basic hull design. The original builders took a 19' Mako and splashed a mold making multiple changes over the years with transoms, gunnels, lengths, etc.. Baysport actually had a laminated plaque riveted to the console that said "know your boats limitations" at one time. I've borrowed a very nice example of what the hull should look like from the classifieds vs. a "tunnel-v" example. 

The original Mako is a battle wagon for a 19' hull. It was never intended to have a key slot or tunnel added.


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## Trout Sniffer (Jun 7, 2005)

A Kenner 21 VX will do it. First day on the water with it. My brother and I were going thru a small zig zag cut with jack plate up and motor level. Spun us into a 180. First and last time we did that! Common since told us what to do and how to handle it after that.


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## Gottagofishin (Dec 17, 2005)

If you haven't swapped ends in your tunnel yet, you aren't trying very hard. LOL! 

I know my boat really well, but still manage to swap ends in the really skinny stuff a couple of times a year. You wouldn't want to do it at 60mph, but mid 20's isn't too bad. 

I'll feel it start to slip, pull the kill switch, and hang on tight. Passengers are on their own, but I usually manage to holler "Hang on!" at them. I haven't lost one yet. 

PS. Not making light of people who get injured, but sometimes in the really skinny stuff with the jack plate all the way up you will lose traction if you hit a really skinny spot in a turn or have to swerve unexpectedly to avoid an obstruction that wasn't there before. Important thing is to know it could happen and be ready. The folks that fish with me regularly know to be ready in those situations, and I never go that skinny with kids or novices in the boat.


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

I assume the bay cats won't do it? I have never ever felt like either of mine were in any danger of breaking lose in the rear in a turn.


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## flounderdaddy (Aug 2, 2009)

The problem that people run into is that they don't lower there jack plate while turning. You have to get the prop lower in the water. Be smart. Slow the heck down while turning.


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## Bird (May 10, 2005)

The topic of swapping ends has come up a lot over the years on 2cool and I have responded to a lot of those posts. Namely because I have one of those 'end swappers' (El Pescador 24). I've had the boat along time and know the boat very well, what it can and can't do. Yes it can swap ends, yes mine has swapped ends but only because I wanted it to. I can feel when she starts 'getting light' in the back end and I ease off a little; throttle and/or turning radius. Point is that I am keenly aware of my boat and the conditions I am running in. It's really no different than driving your vehicle in the rain or on dry pavement. You slow down in the rain right? You put your seatbelt on when you get in right? You slow down going into turns right? It has nothing to do with a faulty design.

Know your boat, know the conditions, wear you kill swith, drive to the conditions, slow down going into turns, slow down when in doubt.


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## gman1772 (Jul 15, 2012)

juan valdez said:


> i try to follow these same rules, though i dont keep people behind the console. i guess i never put much thought in to that. though often i only fish with one or two other people.
> 
> I do not like to have any crew members obstructing my lines of vision. Especially in the mud holes I prefer to fish in. That and the weight in back helps with displacement where it's needed to prevent flaring. The laws of inertia provide that the more something weighs the harder it is to move. Add in some water displacement where the stern/submerged hull has to move more water to swap ends and you have a win/win. Run their butts up to the front casting deck when you need that Tern knee skinny chit to get out of a spot you shouldn't have been in the first place.
> 
> ...


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## Ryan (Apr 30, 2011)

bigfishtx said:


> I assume the bay cats won't do it? I have never ever felt like either of mine were in any danger of breaking lose in the rear in a turn.


I have personally seen a 23 shoalwater cat swap ends coming in at the coast guard station in POC. 3 boats which I'm assuming coming from Sunday beach were racing I'm guessing. An old style el pescador an scb and a shoalwater cat, when the shoalwater cat plowed thru the wakes of the other two it swapped and threw 6 people off. Myself a friend and my son went over to them to see if everyone was ok. I did notice and explained to the drunk captain that his jackplate was all the way up which I had to tell him multiple time to put it down for that is the reason that happened.

I run a Tran 22 SVT and asked Donny when I bought it if it would happen and he flat told me yes it can if I jack up high and try to make sharp turns.


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## kingchip (Apr 20, 2016)

Darn good, informative thread. I'm more familiar operating ski boats in fresh water. Just purchased my 24 Pescador. It's my second bay boat, the first being a 21 TranCat. We don't feel the need to run Kamikazi, but sounds like simple common sense, keep the jack plate down, and load to the rear in a turn will pretty much prevent this. Thanks to all who have posted.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Ryan said:


> I have personally seen a 23 shoalwater cat swap ends coming in at the coast guard station in POC. 3 boats which I'm assuming coming from Sunday beach were racing I'm guessing. An old style el pescador an scb and a shoalwater cat, when the shoalwater cat plowed thru the wakes of the other two it swapped and threw 6 people off. Myself a friend and my son went over to them to see if everyone was ok. I did notice and explained to the drunk captain that his jackplate was all the way up which I had to tell him multiple time to put it down for that is the reason that happened.
> 
> I run a Tran 22 SVT and asked Donny when I bought it if it would happen and he flat told me yes it can if I jack up high and try to make sharp turns.


Racing and drunk ... I hope that one gets chalked up to operator error.


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

Ryan said:


> I have personally seen a 23 shoalwater cat swap ends coming in at the coast guard station in POC. 3 boats which I'm assuming coming from Sunday beach were racing I'm guessing. An old style el pescador an scb and a shoalwater cat, when the shoalwater cat plowed thru the wakes of the other two it swapped and threw 6 people off. Myself a friend and my son went over to them to see if everyone was ok. I did notice and explained to the drunk captain that his jackplate was all the way up which I had to tell him multiple time to put it down for that is the reason that happened.
> 
> I run a Tran 22 SVT and asked Donny when I bought it if it would happen and he flat told me yes it can if I jack up high and try to make sharp turns.


Interesting. I never ran my engine up real high unlesss I was crossing skinny water.


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## Ryan (Apr 30, 2011)

jorgepease said:


> Racing and drunk ... I hope that one gets chalked up to operator error.


I'm not staying it was the boats fault at all. I was reply to the post about the bay cats swapping ends earlier in the thread.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Ryan said:


> I'm not staying it was the boats fault at all. I was reply to the post about the bay cats swapping ends earlier in the thread.


Yeah I know, I mean I hope the CG saw it that way.


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## Waymore (Jul 6, 2011)

I have been running a 24ft El Pescador for 8 years and have never swapped ends. I only have a 150 Yamaha, but I seldom use it all, but I'm allways carefull when turning and running in rough waters. I've felt the steering pull when Quartering into rough water, but I've allways been on guard. Any tunnel hull will get loose when jacked up, so operator error is the rule of the day.


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## D HOGG (Jul 2, 2012)

Waymore said:


> I have been running a 24ft El Pescador for 8 years and have never swapped ends. I only have a 150 Yamaha, but I seldom use it all, but I'm allways carefull when turning and running in rough waters. I've felt the steering pull when Quartering into rough water, but I've allways been on guard. Any tunnel hull will get loose when jacked up, so operator error is the rule of the day.


Man .! Sounds like you have a severe case of common sense .! Something your born with, not taught .!

Enjoy your gift from God .... 
D.


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## raz1056 (Jun 16, 2006)

It really hurts me that lives have been changed/ended due to any boating accident. The same for any other life changing accident whether it be car accident, firearms, etc. We are seeing more of this due to the increased boating activity and hearing about them sooner due to social media. I agree that these types of boats are more prone to swapping ends than other designs, but make no mistake, other designs can be manipulated to do it also. There is always a few consistent variables, speed, sharp turns, and lack of rudder(motor jacked up too high). I can assure you that most hull designs can throw passengers out when the right variables are in place. I have owned many different popular brands, EP, Majek, Exporer, Shoalwater etc. An illusion will dump you out just as fast as any if you turn sharp and too fast in shallow water. I have heard of this before and nearly was part of it one time. Heck i think there was a thread with a turned over tower boat in Pringle just a few months back. Bottom line is all motorized vehicles can be deadly or dangerous in certain situations. I think everyone that owns these boats are either already informed or need to be of the possible hazards associated with the hull designs. I just heard in the last few days of people getting thrown out of an RFL. I have owned 2 and never thought this possible. They slide in hard turns. I have never even came close to doing this. Add the hard slide while turning and cross a larger wake from another boat boat broadside and I now understand that it could happen. When you are driving a boat, you are the captain and your passengers are your responsibility just like a car. Be informed what the vessel is capable of and wear that kill switch. Although it will not prevent the accident, it may save a life from being forever changed. Once again I feel terrible for any family that loses a life due to something that is meant to bring so much joy to our families.


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## BBCAT (Feb 2, 2010)

No doubt they have handling limitations. Same as a Jeep or any other short SUV, know your equipment and your limitations.


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## juan valdez (Jun 21, 2014)

gman1772 said:


> juan valdez said:
> 
> 
> > i try to follow these same rules, though i dont keep people behind the console. i guess i never put much thought in to that. though often i only fish with one or two other people.
> ...


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## juan valdez (Jun 21, 2014)

Waymore said:


> I have been running a 24ft El Pescador for 8 years and have never swapped ends. I only have a 150 Yamaha, but I seldom use it all, but I'm allways carefull when turning and running in rough waters. I've felt the steering pull when Quartering into rough water, but I've allways been on guard. Any tunnel hull will get loose when jacked up, so operator error is the rule of the day.


couple months back i raised the plate up to 6 to see what it would do ( i was by myself, wearing a life jacket and kill switch), man that low water pressure alarm came on lickety split. like almost instant. i knew the reduced steering was going to happen but i wanted to see what it felt like at speed.

normal cruising i'm at about 2.5-3". any more than that and to me the steering is sloppy/loose. i definitely slow down in turns and a couple times i've felt it slide or start to slide but instant throttle reduction has helped

i've not had much issue in the past on the wave issue, at least not that i've noticed, but definitely will be vigilant. i do know i dont quite like the way it feels coming back with a following quartering sea but i've never really felt like i was about to have it swap ends


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