# Ceramic Guides?



## Fishsurfer (Dec 14, 2014)

I am thinking of putting a 9' 10 wt (4 pc) fly rod together with a Sage One blank. I would like to ask your opinion and experiences with ceramic insert runner guides or using ceramic guides instead of snake guides. I know that it is not conventional to fly fishing but I am more interested in the performance than the look. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.


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## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

"It uses what I feel is the finest guide set up youâ€™ll find today on any saltwater fly rod - Large size Fuji Titanium SiC stripping guides with good sized, flexible, nickel/titanium snake guides the rest of the way, ending up with an extra-large tip top that will help clear most tangles." From the link below

https://www.yellowstoneangler.com/g...-beaulah-opal-winston-biii-plus-mystic-reaper

That's from the 2016 Yellowstone angler 8 weight shootout. This is what Scott put on the Meridian. The NRX by g. Loomis uses recoil stripping guides, the nickel/titanium snake guides the rest of the way. Arguably the two best rods out there. I guess those are the guides to use if no expense is too much and the highest performance is desired.

The thing I don't like about the ceramic insert guides are that the inserts find a way to pop loose eventually, especially near the tip. Maybe it's a weight and balance thing on higher end fly rods that keeps the rod makers from using them. Or maybe it's something to do with preventing tangles.


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## squid013 (Jan 8, 2016)

You will just have to make sure that they are bigenough to pass the line. I currently have package bay minima guides on my xi3. When I wrap my next one is getting ALPS. Much higher quality 

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## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

I put this question to another forum and got a pretty much consensus no.

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-rods/372544-snake-guides-vs-ceramic-insert-guides.html


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## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Update, one guy loves ceramic insert guides on his builds and has some really solid points.


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## squid013 (Jan 8, 2016)

The only thing is you will have to use huge guides like 10 or 12 size for your running guides cause the insert makes the actual guide smaller. It will also *** weight to the rod slowing it down. I say try it and see how it feels if you don't like it take them off and try again.

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## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

I keep checking the original link. This has spurred a healthy debate on the NAFFF with some folks defending Ceramic insert guides and others in the snake guide camp.


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## Fishsurfer (Dec 14, 2014)

squid013 said:


> The only thing is you will have to use huge guides like 10 or 12 size for your running guides cause the insert makes the actual guide smaller. It will also *** weight to the rod slowing it down. I say try it and see how it feels if you don't like it take them off and try again.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


I understand about the added mass and inertia so I am using titanium framed guides with SIC and Torzite rings. There will be 12 ceramic ringed guides; Fuji titanium (Ti) framed KW 20mm with a Torzite ceramic ring, Ti SIC KW 12mm, Ti SIC L 8mm and nine Ti SIC L 6mm running guides with a Ti Fuji Arowana tip top in a 6mm Torzite ring. I am using the combination of Torzite and SIC guide rings mainly due to the size. The Torzite rings have a slightly larger inner diameter than the SIC rings in the same size guides. They are also lighter and I want the slightly larger size in the stripper guide and the tip top. This should allow my loops to pass through and this many guides should keep the line straighter without a wave and cast with more ease. The weight difference should be minimal and I am hoping it will not slow the rod down too much. In my opinion the Sage one is really about a size higher than what it is labeled as (a 10 wt is like an 11 wt). The Sage X feels like it fixed this with more flex near the body or center of the rod so if it slows it down a little I don't think it will be a problem. I am also using an Alps triangle aluminum reel seat. Sage makes their own reel seat so it most likely weighs less than the one I am using by about .4 oz but I like the way it looks and a REC weighs the same as the Alps and am going to use a lighter reel that should balance the rod at the grip to slightly forward. I am shooting for a finished weight between 4.4 oz and 4.9 oz. If ya'll have any other suggestion I would like to hear it.


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## squid013 (Jan 8, 2016)

The one is not that fast a rod and three line weighting system is not one heaven ad you say
The extra mass will be huge with all those inserts. And trust me a #6 tip will be too small

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## Fishsurfer (Dec 14, 2014)

squid013 said:


> The one is not that fast a rod and three line weighting system is not one heaven ad you say
> The extra mass will be huge with all those inserts. And trust me a #6 tip will be too small
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


The Sage One 10 wt is in the top 3 fastest rods that Sage makes. The Method is the fastest followed by the Salt then the one. With the Method on scale of 1-10 with 10 being the fastest, is a 10, the Salt a 9.5 and the One a 9. I am reconsidering the guide size. I have tried the 6s and a line tangle takes some effort to get through. I used a 7 as the runner guides as recommended by another rod builder and the tangles or knots will pass through. Thank you for your response I appreciate your input. I always try to work within acceptable perimeters but I want to push it to find what functions the best.


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## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Fishsurfer said:


> The Sage One 10 wt is in the top 3 fastest rods that Sage makes. The Method is the fastest followed by the Salt then the one. With the Method on scale of 1-10 with 10 being the fastest, is a 10, the Salt a 9.5 and the One a 9. I am reconsidering the guide size. I have tried the 6s and a line tangle takes some effort to get through. I used a 7 as the runner guides as recommended by another rod builder and the tangles or knots will pass through. Thank you for your response I appreciate your input. I always try to work within acceptable perimeters but I want to push it to find what functions the best.


Did you get a chance to look at the link? There's been a ton of responses. I don't know how helpful they are, I'm not a rod builder.


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## squid013 (Jan 8, 2016)

Fishsurfer said:


> The Sage One 10 wt is in the top 3 fastest rods that Sage makes. The Method is the fastest followed by the Salt then the one. With the Method on scale of 1-10 with 10 being the fastest, is a 10, the Salt a 9.5 and the One a 9. I am reconsidering the guide size. I have tried the 6s and a line tangle takes some effort to get through. I used a 7 as the runner guides as recommended by another rod builder and the tangles or knots will pass through. Thank you for your response I appreciate your input. I always try to work within acceptable perimeters but I want to push it to find what functions the best.


All of which are much slower than the old txl and xi3 which i have. I build sages for myself. And on that note, none of my sages have any factory guides or spacing. If you want I would gladly give you a call and talk about it.

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## Fishsurfer (Dec 14, 2014)

karstopo said:


> Did you get a chance to look at the link? There's been a ton of responses. I don't know how helpful they are, I'm not a rod builder.


Wow. That stirred up quite a commotion. People are very adamant about their fly rod guides. The commitment to a particular rod guide set up is somewhat fanatical. I have built on Sage and other fly rod blanks before and the set up of 1 guide per foot has been around before I was born. The double footed snake guides work like two guides spaced closely together but with the area at the foot of the guide being open to the blank allowing the line (that has weight and mass) on the back cast to contact the blank in somewhat of a pinch-point. Here are the two main facts that I am using to do a guide set up; whenever the line touches the blank it slows the line down and when the line has a wave in it or moves from side to side in the guides it slows the line down. Both of these attributes create friction and in combination will definitely slow the line down. So what good is a fast rod when this happens every cast? How can you improve this situation? I have put single foot snake guides on in place of the double foot snake guides with the exact same spacing and it did not enhance the casting ability, the presentation or the feel of the rod, in fact it took away from it. The truth is that single footed snake guides in the same position slow the line down even more. This is due to loosing the simulation of the extra guide effect. The line when entering the double footed snake guide contacts the front (closest to the reel) of it and as it passes it contacts the rear. This straightens the line and this is good or a positive of the snake. When the line contacts the single foot snake it contacts in one spot of the guide opening that is too large in diameter and does not eliminate the wave or side to side movement of the line, the wave continues to the next guide that is spaced too far apart and never really diminishes going through the running guide train. The solution is a rapid choke to the smallest ceramic guides that have a smaller inner diameter than snakes, that are spaced closer together. This eliminates the wave and movement of the line as it passes through the guide train and most importantly the ceramic guide does not allow the line to contact the blank as much on the back cast resulting in better loading and a more fluid or smooth release on the forward cast. Wire frame guides like REC that are not snake guides would also achieve the same affect if spaced and sized like this. Obviously the challenge is going to be keeping the guides as small and light as possible that is why I choose solid Ti framed guides and a fast blank like the 10wt One that in my opinion could benefit from being slowed down a hair. About half or more of the tangles I get in my line arenâ€™t going to pass through the snake guides anyway and I will stop them if I see them. I would post this in the rod building section but you usually don't get as many opinions for fly rod builds. Fly fishermen seem to be more informed about equipment in general and if someone builds fly rods they will also visit this forum.


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## Fishsurfer (Dec 14, 2014)

squid013 said:


> All of which are much slower than the old txl and xi3 which i have. I build sages for myself. And on that note, none of my sages have any factory guides or spacing. If you want I would gladly give you a call and talk about it.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


 Squid, 
I would love to talk to you so please pm me. If you live in the Houston area FTU at the I-10 store has some Sage XI 3s blanks on sale for 40% off. This is a very sweet deal on a discontinued rod. I saw 12, 10 and 8 wts. Also there were a few Sage One blanks left for 30% off. You will not find anymore left on the internet so buy yourself a Christmas present, that's what I do every Christmas, and the fly rod I am building that we are talking about is it.


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## squid013 (Jan 8, 2016)

Pm sent

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