# Let's discuss zeroing a rifle



## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

I was brought up hunting down here in the valley and deep south Texas, and still do, where our sendero shots are usually 100-200 yards. I have killed deer out to 350 yards with holdover and been purdy successful at it when given the opportunity @ those ranges for a lethal shot. 

I was taught to zero my scope @ 100 yards, a tried and true method for myself, my pops and his brothers who got me hooked on hunting the elusive whitetailed buck. I know a lot of u guys reload, long distance shoot and cap rounds into targets just for fun, cool deal and all for sure, but for real world hunting situations I have always gone to the old 100 yard zero. How bout your zeroing distance and why??

I guess I'm biffin' cause deer season is over and prolly need to get out and shoot some hogs or something!! Lol


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## housewolf (Nov 24, 2014)

I zero @ 50 yds. Puts me about 1-1/2" high @ 100 and pretty close to dead on again @ 200.


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## 6.5 shooter dude (Jan 8, 2008)

All mine are zeroed at 200. Most of my shots are at that distance.


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## PopArcher (Mar 21, 2015)

All in the ballistic curve of your favorite round. Zero it to keep it in the pipe (6"-8") out to your typical shot distance (not long range stuff). Then lay the crosshairs on the vitals and let her rip, no worries, hold over etc.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

Oh, forgot to mention the arsenal me and my boys use; 2-.270's shooting 130grain core lokt- .30/06 shooting 150 grain core lokt- 7mm/08 shooting 140 grain core lokt and a .243 shooting 100 grain core lokt, all bolt actions for supreme accuracy.


As u can see I like core lokt bullets, they don't break the bank and are deadly in the brush!! Lol


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm

I use a specific sight in based on my rifle and cartridge trajectory based on the Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR). Which means each is a lil different.

I will make adjustments based on the trajectory on the side of the box of Hornady ammo for example.

I also have some Zeiss scopes with RZ reticles. I sight those in based on the Zeiss app that shows the ballistics of each specific manufacturers load/altitude etc.

For example. In my 30-30 I shoot leverevolution. Side of box has it as follows:
+3"@100
+0.2"@200
-12.1"@300

And that's exactly how it is sighted in.
Or for my 44 carbine:
+1.2"@50
+0.0"@100
-5.5"@150

Or my .22:
0.0"@20
+1"@50
0.0"@75
-2.75"@100

My Zeiss RZ reticles in my .204, 6.5 Grendel, .270, and 7mag I just put it to the scope power on the chart or Zeiss ballistics app for the specific load, sight in at that power and then choose the appropriate yardage number from 100yards to 800 yards in 100 yard increments. The scope reticle has lines in it labeled 1 thru 8.


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## Bayoutalker (Jun 30, 2012)

For deer I shoot a 270 with the lightest bullets I can find in factory ammo, usually 130gr. It is sighted dead on at 300 yds which puts it at about 1 1/2" high at about 175 yds. I like the flat shooting of this combo so I don't have to be accurate at gauging distance. Just put the crosshairs where I want the hit and there it is. 

I started deer hunting over the open marsh in southeast Louisiana with no reference to measure distance. From the same stand you might get a shot under the stand on out to over 300 or more. This rifle has never failed to bring home the groceries.

Cliff


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

Impressive sgrem, and bayoutalker, I hear ya the .270 matched with 130 grain psp is a deadly combo in the right hands at any distance!!


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

For hunting shots less than 300 yards with all of those rifles, sight in at 200 yards and your greatest drop will be about 9" at 300 yards. A very easy amount of hold over to accomplish a kill shot. 
Basically at 300 yards hold the crosshairs on the top of the back and you should be center mass of a whitetail.
At 100 yards your point of impact will be less than 2" higher than your point of aim.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

So 2" higher @ 100yds with a 200yd zero. Makes sense for sure, I guess the holdover shot for me is more exciting @ 100yd zero having to judge mentally where the bullet will impact. I guess maybe I should try that zero distance; but, all my guns were sighted in years ago @ 100 and they are all dead on. I don't like to mess with my scopes adjustments whatsoever but it would be fun to try sighting in @ further distance.


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

2"high @ 100 for most hunting rifles with no turret scopes
Zero @ 100 for adjustable scoped rifles
50/200 yards for AR15's (irons, & red dots)
25/200 m for Ak's 47 & 74

Thats the short list.


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## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

My rifles are zero'ed at 200. I used to shoot all the time to 500yds and that was a good zero for me. A little trick that was taught me using my Leupold scope and either my 30/06 or 308. Zero'ed at 200 lets say theres a doe at 300. Take the point of the center post and place it on her brisket. For a buck you place the horizontal bar across its back. Both shots are kill shots, no scope adjustments needed. 
Will that work with other scope manufacturers? I have no idea, never tried it.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

DCAVA said:


> So 2" lower @ 100yds with a 200yd zero. Makes sense for sure.


Look up your ballistics here. Most every manufacturer has these charts for their cartridge offerings.

http://m.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistic-chart

Remember too these are for a 26" barrel. If your barrwl is shorter you will need to use a balistics calculator. For some of mine at a 200 yard zero is only about 5" drop NOT 9" at 300....so it is easy to make generalizations. But look at your specific loads. Learn how to use a ballistics chart and print out the numbers for that rifle somewhere that you can reference. It means the difference between ethical confident kills and hail Mary rainbows. Look up your rifle and your load. The rest of the numbers here are arbitrary guesses that DO NOT fit every caliber.

Look at the MPBR chart I posted earlier as well.


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## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

DCAVA said:


> So 2" higher @ 100yds with a 200yd zero. Makes sense for sure, I guess the holdover shot for me is more exciting @ 100yd zero having to judge mentally where the bullet will impact. I guess maybe I should try that zero distance; but, all my guns were sighted in years ago @ 100 and they are all dead on. I don't like to mess with my scopes adjustments whatsoever but it would be fun to try sighting in @ further distance.


2" @100yds is a ballpark and a good starting point. Next time you are at the range crank your scope up 8 clicks (2" on 1/4moa adjustment) and shoot at the 200yd range. It should be pretty close. You may need to fine tune it a bit. Run a ballistics calculator on your caliber and bullet weight to get a better adjustment


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

Have studied ballistic charts on the Remmy website a lot over the years fellas, that is how I made the determination to buy my 7/08 years ago. Muzzle velocity, ft lbs of knockdown power and trajectory were major factors when I bought that rifle as it is close to my .270's performance but in short action. Thinking about buying a 25/06 for the same reasons. With that gun, I will prolly sight in @ 200yds and fire enough lead downrange to be able to gage different hunting distances/scenarios for kill shots.

Great info guys and thanks for the input thus far..


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## jaime1982 (Aug 25, 2009)

Hunting season is never over in TX. Plenty of Axis, Blackbuck, Sika, Fallow, Mouflon ect to kill in the hill country.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Zero at 100 with 7mm-08. If I want to shoot something in the eye at 100 (most shots around that) I can and dont worry about zero. If its out little further say 2 to 300 yards being from the old school just hold over the correct amount. I try not to make it hard. Also shooting out of a stand or off hand certainly is not like on a bench. Gotta be practical.
Most of my buddies use the 2 " high at 100 method.


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## Bayoutalker (Jun 30, 2012)

RB II said:


> For hunting shots less than 300 yards with all of those rifles, sight in at 200 yards and your greatest drop will be about 9" at 300 yards. A very easy amount of hold over to accomplish a kill shot.
> Basically at 300 yards hold the crosshairs on the top of the back and you should be center mass of a whitetail.
> At 100 yards your point of impact will be less than 2" higher than your point of aim.


My 270 with zero at 300 yds the low points are the muzzle and 300. The high point is about 1.5-2" at around 175 yds. That means there is no need to adjust aimpoint anywhere in that range.

I set my rifles after looking at the ballistic charts for that particular combo. I want to take best advantage of the capabilities of the gun not just set it at the range I expect to shoot. You never know when that shot needs to be longer or shorter than normal and there are places that determining range correctly can be difficult. Why risk a bad shot.

Cliff


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Bayoutalker said:


> My 270 with zero at 300 yds the low points are the muzzle and 300. The high point is about 1.5-2" at around 175 yds. That means there is no need to adjust aimpoint anywhere in that range.
> 
> I set my rifles after looking at the ballistic charts for that particular combo. I want to take best advantage of the capabilities of the gun not just set it at the range I expect to shoot. You never know when that shot needs to be longer or shorter than normal and there are places that determining range correctly can be difficult. Why risk a bad shot.
> 
> Cliff


With what bullets and at what velocity? I have shot a .270 since i was 10 and my trajectory show high point to be double that with the hottest premium loads..... with less than the hottest loads it would be even more which could be a miss on a bobcat for example.....just an fyi. Curious what bullets and velocity you are using.


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## mkk (May 7, 2009)

Ballistics charts and calculators are a nice guideline, actual field testing at marked yardages is what really shows you what you and the rifle are capable of doing. 

I think a person needs to evaluate what he/she is capable of doing and zero based on there abilities. 

My kids guns are zeroed for 150yds (.308, .243) because they are very proficient out to 200 yds. We all know that either one of those 2 calibers are capable well past 200 yds, but the kids groups start to deteriorate past 250 so we keep our shots inside of 250 or pass on the shot.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I used and hunted with a rifle chambered for the .270 Winchester for years, shot the 130 grain Core Lokt bullet and never had a problem hitting what I shot at.

Always sighted it in 1.5" or 2" high at 100 yards. Just play with it Dan and see what is best for you.

Add some fun to it for the kids and put up a life size target of a deer on the back board at 300 yards and see how they and you do on hitting it.

TH


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## Bayoutalker (Jun 30, 2012)

sgrem said:


> With what bullets and at what velocity? I have shot a .270 since i was 10 and my trajectory show high point to be double that with the hottest premium loads..... with less than the hottest loads it would be even more which could be a miss on a bobcat for example.....just an fyi. Curious what bullets and velocity you are using.


130gr Winchester ballistic tips. I've checked it and those figures are pretty accurate. All I used it for is whitetail and that is very acceptable on an 8" kill zone. On a smaller target you might be correct on missing the shot.

Cliff


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## Bayoutalker (Jun 30, 2012)

mkk said:


> Ballistics charts and calculators are a nice guideline, actual field testing at marked yardages is what really shows you what you and the rifle are capable of doing.
> 
> I think a person needs to evaluate what he/she is capable of doing and zero based on there abilities.
> 
> My kids guns are zeroed for 150yds (.308, .243) because they are very proficient out to 200 yds. We all know that either one of those 2 calibers are capable well past 200 yds, but the kids groups start to deteriorate past 250 so we keep our shots inside of 250 or pass on the shot.


That's the key. Know your rifle's capabilities.

Cliff


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## Bayoutalker (Jun 30, 2012)

Trouthunter said:


> I used and hunted with a rifle chambered for the .270 Winchester for years, shot the 130 grain Core Lokt bullet and never had a problem hitting what I shot at.
> 
> Always sighted it in 1.5" or 2" high at 100 yards. Just play with it Dan and see what is best for you.
> 
> ...


That should put you on about 275 yds.

Cliff


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## Jungle_Jim (Nov 16, 2007)

I just make up the numbers. Math is hardsad3sm


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Bayoutalker said:


> 130gr Winchester ballistic tips. I've checked it and those figures are pretty accurate. All I used it for is whitetail and that is very acceptable on an 8" kill zone. On a smaller target you might be correct on missing the shot.
> 
> Cliff


Winchester lists that ammo with a muzzle velocity of 3050fps (out of a 26" barrel-adjust for shorter barrel) and a ballistic coefficient of 0.433. For a 300 yard zero you are 4.3" high at 200 yards. Just an fyi if you needed to thread the needle thru some brush or aiming for a cool fox or something.....


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## Jawbreaker (Feb 20, 2007)

Old school here,been using a 30-06 zero at 100 yards forever.Never shot at deer much beyond 100 yards,but over the years made some decent shots on stuff that needed shooting using simple hold over out to 350 yards ....beyond that i would need some definite range time so it is still pull trigger and know where you hit versus poke and hope.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Bayoutalker said:


> That should put you on about 275 yds.
> 
> Cliff


Wrong wrong wrong......with his ammo, Rem core lokt, 1.5" high at 100 and he would be about 3" low at 275 yards.....

Play with some tables and rifles.....you can't guess this stuff.


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## Bayoutalker (Jun 30, 2012)

sgrem said:


> Winchester lists that ammo with a muzzle velocity of 3050fps (out of a 26" barrel-adjust for shorter barrel) and a ballistic coefficient of 0.433. For a 300 yard zero you are 4.3" high at 200 yards. Just an fyi if you needed to thread the needle thru some brush or aiming for a cool fox or something.....


Believe what you want. I've done the testing and know what my rifle does. As for shooting through holes or at small animals, I have already said I use it for whitetail. I have other guns for other purposes. And the places I have hunted are over open marsh with no need to shoot through holes.

Cliff


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## 223AI (May 7, 2012)

I zero everything at 100, and I only run mil/mil scopes with good turrets (where the reticle matches the adjustments). I find my load at 100, put 5 through a chronograph, pull up my ballistic calculator, and dope out the gun from 100-600 (or 1,000 for my competition rig). I then compare actual drop to the calculated drop, make my adjustments in the ballistic calculator (muzzle velocity and overestimated BC are usually the two main sources of issues), and then re-verify. 

From there, it's simply a matter of having the data handy. I write my dope on a piece of duct tape, in 50 yard increments, and slap in on the side of my gun. It's a piece of cake to see a deer or hog at 300 yards, know I need to add 1 mil to the gun, spin the turret, and send it. If I'm really in a hurry, then I just use the reticle.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

Great info fellas, I zeroed my /06 this past season with 150 psp core lokt ammo; a lot of drop with the 06; I want the sumbich to shoot flatter and truer @ longer distances.

Gonna rezero with 125 grain and prolly set the scope dead on @ 200yds and toy with that rifle/bullet setup to use it more often. I usually tote my trusty .270 or my/08 in the brush since they are flat shooters. I wanna get similar performance from the /06 and practice more with it.


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## Jungle_Jim (Nov 16, 2007)

DCAVA said:


> Great info fellas, I zeroed my /06 this past season with 150 psp core lokt ammo; a lot of drop with the 06; I want the sumbich to shoot flatter and truer @ longer distances.
> 
> Gonna rezero with 125 grain and prolly set the scope dead on @ 200yds and toy with that rifle/bullet setup to use it more often. I usually tote my trusty .270 or my/08 in the brush since they are flat shooters. I wanna get similar performance from the /06 and practice more with it.


Lighter bullets lose velocity faster than heavier ones. Keep that in mind.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Wow guys are we shooting paper or deer hunting. Somewhere we have to be practical. 
For most of the calibers mentioned we are talking about maybe 2 inch difference. Well within the kill zone on a whitetail. Certainly want to know my gun (ballistics) and also that it is accurate (make sure of that) but boy we can get out of hand quick on details that really make a very little difference in hunting. Competetion shooting from benches different story.


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## BradV (Jun 27, 2012)

Bayoutalker said:


> Believe what you want. I've done the testing and know what my rifle does. As for shooting through holes or at small animals, I have already said I use it for whitetail. I have other guns for other purposes. And the places I have hunted are over open marsh with no need to shoot through holes.
> 
> Cliff


From what I see, sgrem is correct on his drop estimates. Ballistics is a science and all of these values can be very accurately calculated.

On 130gr Win ballistic silver tips this is the data I see for a 300 yard zero. Data generated using 130gr, 0.433 BC, 3050fps as stated from Winchester. Scope height was set to 2.25" as an estimate, +/- a bit will not make any large differences.

That 175yd point shows to be +4.3", still basically within an 8" kill zone, but definitely not 1.75" above point of aim.

I would gladly make some of these charts for anyone if they wanted. To accurately make a chart, actual muzzle velocity, bullet BC, and scope height over bore are needed. Otherwise, factory ammo specs and estimated scope height can be used to get quite close. Just let me know what range you want your zero to be!

My take on zeroing a rifle - It depends what you do with it. For a hunting rifle that sees no more than 200 yard shots, I would probably be inclined to use a zero around 175 yards. For most cartridges you will be at worst +/- 1.5" out to 200. For target or longer distance hunting, I would do as 223AI states and zero at 100, dialing elevation for range. The vital zone may be relatively large, but I want to minimize errors from having a round going 4" away from my point of aim at certain distances.


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## 223AI (May 7, 2012)

CHARLIE said:


> Wow guys are we shooting paper or deer hunting. Somewhere we have to be practical.
> For most of the calibers mentioned we are talking about maybe 2 inch difference. Well within the kill zone on a whitetail. Certainly want to know my gun (ballistics) and also that it is accurate (make sure of that) but boy we can get out of hand quick on details that really make a very little difference in hunting. Competetion shooting from benches different story.


The thing is, however, that details matter, especially when I want as much accuracy as possible, hunting or competition. Doing as I described is incredibly easy if your set up for it...range the target, reference your dope card, spin a turret, and send it. All of that can be done in under 15 seconds. If you don't have an externally adjustable scope, then practice your holds at the range, and dope out your rifle accordingly.

I use a 100 yard zero because it's an easy reference point, and most of my shots are 200 and under. The zero range matters very little, but knowing your load and your rifle (and your capabilities) matter quite a bit.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

CHARLIE said:


> Wow guys are we shooting paper or deer hunting. Somewhere we have to be practical.
> For most of the calibers mentioned we are talking about maybe 2 inch difference. Well within the kill zone on a whitetail. Certainly want to know my gun (ballistics) and also that it is accurate (make sure of that) but boy we can get out of hand quick on details that really make a very little difference in hunting. Competetion shooting from benches different story.


Got ya Charlie on the practicality part. I want to be able to connect with the pumphouse given different ranges on every opportunity like you do. I know my rifles well and my capabilities given the ammo and the grain I have chosen for each rifle. My main objective while in a blind is buck in the dirt no matter the distance of the shot, as is yours.

I would like to use my /06 on nilgai this off season and the shot in the area I am allowed to hunt them down here could range from 50yds out to 500yds. Just thinking about knock down power on the big bodied nilgai cracking 125grain psp downrange @ em'. I know shot placement is key always on any animal. The drop of the 150 grain is drastic though.

I wonder what Jammers take on this subject is Charlie, or maybe even Ernest?? Lol

Great discussion BTW fellas.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Oh man. The 125 grainers are probably the worst possible choice for big tough Nilgai. In fact they would be just barely enough on easy to kill whitetails at 400 yards much less 500....

Get some 165 or 180 grain Hornady Interbond. Nilgai are very tough.

Don't worry so much about drop. Worry about down range energy and bullet construction for the type of animal/hunt you are going on.


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## BradV (Jun 27, 2012)

DCAVA said:


> Got ya Charlie on the practicality part. I want to be able to connect with the pumphouse given different ranges on every opportunity like you do. I know my rifles well and my capabilities given the ammo and the grain I have chosen for each rifle. My main objective while in a blind is buck in the dirt no matter the distance of the shot, as is yours.
> 
> I would like to use my /06 on nilgai this off season and the shot in the area I am allowed to hunt them down here could range from 50yds out to 500yds. Just thinking about knock down power on the big bodied nilgai cracking 125grain psp downrange @ em'. I know shot placement is key always on any animal. The drop of the 150 grain is drastic though.
> 
> ...


The 125 grain is going to have drastically less energy at 500 yards than the 150 grain will. It will be a poor choice. I can't find the BC of the 125 or 150 Rem Core Lokt bullet, but I will use the Sierra pro hunter of similar shape to compare. I'll use the listed remington velocity for this comparison. I would go for a big heavy bullet and it will outdo both at distance.

edit: Grabbed the wrong BC, however the corrected data still favors the 150 as far as an effective big game bullet. The drops are not so far apart, but look at the actual differences. I still would pick something heavier for nilgai.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

This is what I have been looking @ from sportsman's guide on the webz with Remmy ammo, I caint get into the Remmy website @ work, blocked site!! Lol

I have never experimented on shooting with such a heavy grain sgrem; nilgai are tough critters for sure and the probable distance of shot concerns me. I want to anchor the animal cleanly and ethically.

What zero point would be good on the 06/ matched w/180grain??

http://guide.sportsmansguide.com/ballistic-chart/remington_charts/3006sbal.htm

fixed it!!


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

Didn't cut/past good @ all, but if u go to sportman's guide.com they have ballistics on different bullet types.


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## BradV (Jun 27, 2012)

If you plan to take game at 500 yards, I would have to recommend zeroing at 100 yards and dialing the correct elevation for that distance.for 6:

Edit: Don't forget about wind drift too. Look at the difference in drift between the 180 and lighter loads. It is much easier to compensate for drop as these are basically known values. The wind drift listed is a 10mph value. That can and will change far more than your drop based on environmental conditions. at 500 yards with 10mph I would rather compensate for consistent 6" more drop than an uncertain value of wind drift.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

BradV said:


> If you plan to take game at 500 yards, I would have to recommend zeroing at 100 yards and dialing the correct elevation for that distance.


Don't have fancy optics on my rifles Brad, I topped the /06 with a Redfield Revenge 3-9x42; once I zero I don't move anything just holdover.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I like the 165-168 gr bullets in the 30 caliber range. The 120-125 is too light in the 30 caliber. Gotta start worrying about barrel twist rate and accuracy with standard barrel twist rates plus maintaing energy down range.


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## FREON (Jun 14, 2005)

DCAVA said:


> Oh, forgot to mention the arsenal me and my boys use; 2-.270's shooting 130grain core lokt- .30/06 shooting 150 grain core lokt- 7mm/08 shooting 140 grain core lokt and a .243 shooting 100 grain core lokt, all bolt actions for supreme accuracy.
> 
> As u can see I like core lokt bullets, they don't break the bank and are deadly in the brush!! Lol


Sight em in dead on at 25 yds....will be about 1 1/2-2 " high at 100 and back on at 200-225Yds. These are all approximate but dang sure close enough for govt work....


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## BradV (Jun 27, 2012)

DCAVA said:


> Don't have fancy optics on my rifles Brad, I topped the /06 with a Redfield Revenge 3-9x42; once I zero I don't move anything just holdover.


If that is the case, I would probably zero around 260 yards, which will give you a trajectory of + / - 4" out to about 315 yards. at 400 yards it would be an 18" hold over, and 41" holdover at 500 yards.

Personally I don't think I would try to shoot quite that far without dialing, but if you have practiced enough and are confident in the shot then that is your call. :brew2:


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

In that case go back to the Chuckhawks MPBR article I linked. 500 yards with a guessing holdover is a no go....400 yards is also a no go. 

Great set up. And very effective to 300 yards. Very marginal past that. Simply not the appropriate tools to stretch further with even marginal kill zone accuracy. You will need adjustable turrets or a proper holdover reticle matched to your ballistics for that rifle and that ammo load.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

223AI

Yes sir details do matter and they matter a lot. You are 100% correct. My detail in question as to how accurate can you be say off handed or even shooting out of a blind. Absoloutely I want to be as accurate as possible but I cannot come close to the accuracy available in my rifle or ammo not shooting off of a bench. Thats all I am saying. If we are shooting bench rest competetion and trying to shoot the bullseye out of a target with a sled or bench rest thats a totally different story. As my dear old deceased Mom would always say, dont make mountains out of a mole hill. LOL


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## BradV (Jun 27, 2012)

CHARLIE said:


> 223AI
> 
> Yes sir details do matter and they matter a lot. You are 100% correct. My detail in question as to how accurate can you be say off handed or even shooting out of a blind. Absoloutely I want to be as accurate as possible but I cannot come close to the accuracy available in my rifle or ammo not shooting off of a bench. Thats all I am saying. If we are shooting bench rest competetion and trying to shoot the bullseye out of a target with a sled or bench rest thats a totally different story. As my dear old deceased Mom would always say, dont make mountains out of a mole hill. LOL


Lots of this may be overthought, but, imagine your rifle is shooting 3" high without realizing it, and you happen to pull the shot 3" high. You are now 6" off target.

On the other hand, lets say the rifle shoots 3" high without realizing it, and you pull accidentally 3" low. You just made a perfect shot by mistake. 

The first example is why I want to know exactly where I am hitting. The second... well, backstrap dinner in that case haha.


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## texastkikker (Dec 24, 2008)

mkk said:


> Ballistics charts and calculators are a nice guideline, actual field testing at marked yardages is what really shows you what you and the rifle are capable of doing.
> 
> I think a person needs to evaluate what he/she is capable of doing and zero based on there abilities.
> 
> My kids guns are zeroed for 150yds (.308, .243) because they are very proficient out to 200 yds. We all know that either one of those 2 calibers are capable well past 200 yds, but the kids groups start to deteriorate past 250 so we keep our shots inside of 250 or pass on the shot.


Couldn't agree more. My ballistic app is great........shooting the gun will really tell you where the bullet will hit. I have some guns that are sighted dead on at 100 yards.....they are long range guns as well as hunting guns with tactical turret scopes....shoot steel with them to 1000 yards +. Most of my dedicated hunting rifles are 1.5" high at 100 yards. I mostly hunt with 2 rifles. Both have been shot at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 1000 yards. I do this to verify the amount of "clicks" that the app says. Here again most shots taken on game are within 200 yards in the real world......


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## 223AI (May 7, 2012)

CHARLIE said:


> 223AI
> 
> Yes sir details do matter and they matter a lot. You are 100% correct. My detail in question as to how accurate can you be say off handed or even shooting out of a blind. Absoloutely I want to be as accurate as possible but I cannot come close to the accuracy available in my rifle or ammo not shooting off of a bench. Thats all I am saying. If we are shooting bench rest competetion and trying to shoot the bullseye out of a target with a sled or bench rest thats a totally different story. As my dear old deceased Mom would always say, dont make mountains out of a mole hill. LOL


Agreed. No mountains out of molehills on this end, just a good discussion. I like it.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> Just thinking about knock down power on the big bodied nilgai cracking 125grain psp downrange @ em'. I know shot placement is key always on any animal. The drop of the 150 grain is drastic though.


Dan Just FYI but if you're going to shoot a Nilgai with a .30-.06 you need a 200 grain bullet like the Barnes X.

Just got back from a hunt and those are some big tough animals.

TH


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

Trouthunter said:


> Dan Just FYI but if you're going to shoot a Nilgai with a .30-.06 you need a 200 grain bullet like the Barnes X.
> 
> Just got back from a hunt and those are some big tough animals.
> 
> TH


I know they are tough TH, If I can get one in close a for a neck shot, no problems. It's the shot @ long distance that concerns me. Not too confident on the 150grain setup I have right now.

How'd u do Martin, did u take one down??


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## FREON (Jun 14, 2005)

I have killed at least 10 Nilgai with my 30-06 with 150 gr. Most with neck shots but a few behind the shoulder. As previously stated it is all about the placement of the shot.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

A 30-06 has plenty of terminal velocity with say a 168 grain bullet to kill a nilgai at 500 yds, but you have to hit him in the boiler. To do that, you need a scope with target turrets and a good deal of practice at that range with quality loads. Also need a quality projectile, like a Berger or Barnes, to do the job when it gets there. HSM makes some good quality, almost match grade, ammo, perfect for hunting.

Bottom line, the game changes when you get beyond about 350 yds, hold over is pretty much out and you have to step up the optics, range finder and bullets to consistently make an ethical kill. or you have to practice A LOT.


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## Bayoutalker (Jun 30, 2012)

BradV said:


> From what I see, sgrem is correct on his drop estimates. Ballistics is a science and all of these values can be very accurately calculated.
> 
> On 130gr Win ballistic silver tips this is the data I see for a 300 yard zero. Data generated using 130gr, 0.433 BC, 3050fps as stated from Winchester. Scope height was set to 2.25" as an estimate, +/- a bit will not make any large differences.
> 
> ...


Let's not argue the math. My results do not match your data but some of that could be scope height, barrel length, etc.

The question I have is why would you zero in at less than the expected shot distance? With my setup and my intended quarry I don't have to adjust point of aim to achieve a kill shot out to what I feel is my maximum distance. If I zero at 175 I would have to accurately estimate distance and the amount I would need to elevate. Quite frankly, I'm not that good over open ground.

Cliff


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## BradV (Jun 27, 2012)

Bayoutalker said:


> Let's not argue the math. My results do not match your data but some of that could be scope height, barrel length, etc.
> 
> The question I have is why would you zero in at less than the expected shot distance? With my setup and my intended quarry I don't have to adjust point of aim to achieve a kill shot out to what I feel is my maximum distance. If I zero at 175 I would have to accurately estimate distance and the amount I would need to elevate. Quite frankly, I'm not that good over open ground.
> 
> Cliff


It is quite true that many variables come into play here. Some barrels like to shoot a little faster, the next guy could have his scope mounted much higher. I was just using Winchesters provided data and an estimate of scope height.

My answer is probably more related to the shots I would take hunting. The max distance where I shoot is in fact around 200 yards, most shots being 110-150. I would have my rifle sighted to have the smallest deviation above and below the point of aim for its intended maximum distance. I wouldn't hold over or under on a boiler room shot as the distance is not that far, and the trajectory would not be far off no matter the range in that situation. Assuming I hold the rifle still, it would hit within a 2" radius out to 200 yards. This is my actual hunting situation, and it sounds similar to how you are set up as well. Nothing extremely long distance, and one single zero can work without much hassle.

If I were hunting and had a possible shot anywhere between 100 and 500 yards, a 300 yard zero doesn't do me much good for holding over ~14 inches at 400 and probably ~38 inches at 500 yards. It would also force me to hold under for closer shots between 100 and 200. I would be prepared to dial in my elevation and only hold off for wind using the reticle. My thinking would be that most likely I will be dialing no matter what, and 100 yards is basically my starting reference point. Also when arriving to my hunting location, it is fairly easy to confirm your zero at 100 yards on arrival and dial your elevation after ranging your target on the hunt.

I think the main thing that is being uncovered in this thread is definitely that there is no "one rifle does it all" setup, and that many people will prefer different options, all of which put meat in the freezer. Some good discussions in here!


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## Bayoutalker (Jun 30, 2012)

It looks like we are on the same page just a max distance difference. A 300yd shot where I hunted was not unusual so that worked out to get the best curve. That's why I like a flat shooting setup.

When I started I used 100gr PSP ammo. I had to change as I can't find it any more. It was a bit flatter than what I use now. If I hunted in thick cover I might opt for a different caliber or bullet. 

Cliff


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

180 grain Barnes tsx in .30 cal are perfect medicine for nilgai. We kill close to 100 a year using stock Rem 700's in .300 Win Mag. All are zeroed at 100 yards and I can talk my hunters through proper holdover out to 300 yards. Nilgai hate this setup!


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm off Monday so I'll prolly spend some time at the range tomorrow practicing with my /06 and heavier grain bullets and get in the woods on Monday after a nilgai bull. 

Hopefully I can get one in relatively close...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

I am not a turret twister and dont like it. I shoot PCP air rifles that are capable of killing deer and hogs but still have a rainbow trajectory. I prefer to use a dot reticle scope and memorize the dot holdover for the distance. I regularly make head shots on starlings at 100 yards if the wind isnt bad. I memorized each dot for each distance or you could tape a reminder to the gun. No chart or guessing hold over will be as good as going to a 500 yard rang and shooting your gun at each distance. Learn and know your gun.


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

Bottomsup said:


> I am not a turret twister and dont like it. I shoot PCP air rifles that are capable of killing deer and hogs but still have a rainbow trajectory. I prefer to use a dot reticle scope and memorize the dot holdover for the distance. I regularly make head shots on starlings at 100 yards if the wind isnt bad. I memorized each dot for each distance or you could tape a reminder to the gun. No chart or guessing hold over will be as good as going to a 500 yard rang and shooting your gun at each distance. Learn and know your gun.


Curious as to what size your dots are and is it a mill dot type retical?


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## locolobo (Dec 2, 2005)

I have a "range" in my backyard @ 75 yds and my longest deer shot has been @ about 100, so 75 seems right to me.


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## 223AI (May 7, 2012)

Bottomsup said:


> I am not a turret twister and dont like it. I shoot PCP air rifles that are capable of killing deer and hogs but still have a rainbow trajectory. I prefer to use a dot reticle scope and memorize the dot holdover for the distance. I regularly make head shots on starlings at 100 yards if the wind isnt bad. I memorized each dot for each distance or you could tape a reminder to the gun. No chart or guessing hold over will be as good as going to a 500 yard rang and shooting your gun at each distance. Learn and know your gun.


Spinning turrets will always be significantly more accurate than anyone can ever hold in a reticle....especially at distance.


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## PopArcher (Mar 21, 2015)

RB II said:


> A 30-06 has plenty of terminal velocity with say a 168 grain bullet to kill a nilgai at 500 yds, but you have to hit him in the boiler. To do that, you need a scope with target turrets and a good deal of practice at that range with quality loads. Also need a quality projectile, like a Berger or Barnes, to do the job when it gets there. HSM makes some good quality, almost match grade, ammo, perfect for hunting.
> 
> Bottom line, the game changes when you get beyond about 350 yds, hold over is pretty much out and you have to step up the optics, range finder and bullets to consistently make an ethical kill. or you have to practice A LOT.


Also: remember the boiler room is further forward on the african planes animals. Don't shoot behind the front leg at all...


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Nilgai are not African plains game. They are an Indian antelope. Slightly behind the shoulder works well and is your only real chance at getting a complete pass through with most calibers.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

223AI said:


> Spinning turrets will always be significantly more accurate than anyone can ever hold in a reticle....especially at distance.


 How do you figure that? An aim point is an aim point. If you shoot as much as I do you will be wearing out turrets. I dont like moving the internals of a scope over and over. If you know your dots and range its just as accurate as turning turrets and possibly more so than what you will find in average scopes. Have you ever noticed that windage can move with elevation change and vice versa? It happens because the turrets are pushing against a round erector tube.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

muney pit said:


> Curious as to what size your dots are and is it a mill dot type retical?


They tend to vary from scope to scope and if it has a actual crosshair or a laser etched lens. My Hawk Sidewinder has very fine mil dots with half dot lines.


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

Bottomsup said:


> They tend to vary from scope to scope and if it has a actual crosshair or a laser etched lens. My Hawk Sidewinder has very fine mil dots with half dot lines.


Thats what i was thinking you were useing but wanted to make sure. Im with 223AI as far as turning is gonna be more accurate than hold over. That dot is .2mills at 100 which is .74" and at 600 thats over 4"'s that the dot is gonna cover. Dialing is gonna be dead nuts. Is it faster, well yea and we all can see that but it cant be said that holding over is just as accurate as holding over. Depending on the use it may be good enough and for plinking at steel i have used hold overs myself, but for precision.... ya just cant.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

Been looking @ BDC type scope/reticle combinations online after posting this thread; It seems like a great way to pinpoint holdover instead of the old fashioned way of raising the horizontal post of my reticle.

Next scope purchase I make will be one with this type of reticle configuration.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Look at it this way Dan, everything gets improved and they're right. The BDC scopes can turn what might have been a miss into a kill.

Long range shooting has come a long way from the old T-6 and T-10 Weaver scopes we used to use. 

TH


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## 223AI (May 7, 2012)

Bottomsup said:


> How do you figure that? An aim point is an aim point. If you shoot as much as I do you will be wearing out turrets. I dont like moving the internals of a scope over and over. If you know your dots and range its just as accurate as turning turrets and possibly more so than what you will find in average scopes. Have you ever noticed that windage can move with elevation change and vice versa? It happens because the turrets are pushing against a round erector tube.


I shoot plenty...over the course of a PRS 2 day match, we usually put 180-200 rounds on the gun, and everyone dials everything. I usually shoot 3-400 rounds in the a trainup to the matches...dialing everything. All told, I usually burn up a 6.5 barrel over the course of a year, and have 3500-4500 rounds on my .223 trainer.

Say I have a 1.5 moa target at 650 yards, assuming a full value 3:00 wind, my 6.5x47 dope is 3.8 mils elevation and 1.1 wind. The difference of .1-.2 mils is the difference between a hit and a miss. Good equipment matters, and that's why I run Kahles, Nightforce, and Schmidt and Bender's. They're designed to have the turrets cranked on over and over again, and hold zero. I've never once had a scope lose zero because I was using the turrets as designed. I did have my Schmidt lose zero once, but that's because I knocked it off a table and it landed on elevation turret. I reset the zero and all was good.

If you think you can hold at distance as accurately as dialing, then more power to you...especially if you are holding for elevation and wind at the same time.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

223AI said:


> I shoot plenty...over the course of a PRS 2 day match, we usually put 180-200 rounds on the gun, and everyone dials everything. I usually shoot 3-400 rounds in the a trainup to the matches...dialing everything. All told, I usually burn up a 6.5 barrel over the course of a year, and have 3500-4500 rounds on my .223 trainer.
> 
> Say I have a 1.5 moa target at 650 yards, assuming a full value 3:00 wind, my 6.5x47 dope is 3.8 mils elevation and 1.1 wind. The difference of .1-.2 mils is the difference between a hit and a miss. Good equipment matters, and that's why I run Kahles, Nightforce, and Schmidt and Bender's. They're designed to have the turrets cranked on over and over again, and hold zero. I've never once had a scope lose zero because I was using the turrets as designed. I did have my Schmidt lose zero once, but that's because I knocked it off a table and it landed on elevation turret. I reset the zero and all was good.
> 
> If you think you can hold at distance as accurately as dialing, then more power to you...especially if you are holding for elevation and wind at the same time.


I build my own guns and chamber my own barrels. I am no stranger to precision shooting and gun building. I did say average scopes not super high end scopes. I might also ask how often you clean your barrel during the 180 rounds? Some reticles have windage built in for elevation changes so you still have a solid aim point but you are still guessing windage because you cant control or even know exactly what the wind is doing. Even with flags its hard to read and adjust for.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

muney pit said:


> Thats what i was thinking you were useing but wanted to make sure. Im with 223AI as far as turning is gonna be more accurate than hold over. That dot is .2mills at 100 which is .74" and at 600 thats over 4"'s that the dot is gonna cover. Dialing is gonna be dead nuts. Is it faster, well yea and we all can see that but it cant be said that holding over is just as accurate as holding over. Depending on the use it may be good enough and for plinking at steel i have used hold overs myself, but for precision.... ya just cant.


It doesnt have to be a dot. I have dot reticles less than .125" at 100 yards so what is that at 600 yards? The half dot hashes are just as fine as the center cross.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Yall havent got that gun zeroed yet ?? Come on guys LOL


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

CHARLIE said:


> Yall havent got that gun zeroed yet ?? Come on guys LOL


Let's throw something else in to the conversation Charlie...Lol

Just read this article; how 'bout a 26 yard hunting zero, seems dam accurate, in theory, given the info and dialing in dime size groups @ close range...

http://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2014/2/4/the-26-yard-hunting-zero/


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

DCAVA said:


> Let's throw something else in to the conversation Charlie...Lol
> 
> Just read this article; how 'bout a 26 yard hunting zero, seems dam accurate, in theory, given the info and dialing in dime size groups @ close range...
> 
> http://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2014/2/4/the-26-yard-hunting-zero/


My dad has done it this way for as long as he has used a scoped rifle, prob since the early 60s, its the only way I do it today on ALL rifles I own or zero for anyone. The only difference is use a 1/4" dot AND keyhole it. Not interested in shooting the eye out at 200yrds, just put the meat on the ground....


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I have used 25 yards to zero my rifle for deer hunting many times. As wet dreams said from back in the 60's. Works great. Sometimes we seem to over complicate things. The KISS method always works.


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