# Is .223 too small for East Texas deer?



## MikTheKnife (May 21, 2004)

I'm going to be taking my son hunting for the first time this year and was wondering if I should let him hunt with a .223 vs .243? 

For those of you who have met Jake know that he is a pretty tall but a bit on the skinny side, almost 6 feet tall and probably weighs about 120 (FishinChick says he is still her "little baby"). I think he could handle the .243 but if he'll feel more confident with the .223 I'll go that route.

But the bottom line is this... is the .223 enough of a gun to bring down a deer at 100 - 150 yards? I know it has a lot to do with the ammo and any suggestions on store-bought ammo would be appreciated.

Thanks
MIK


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## James Howell (May 21, 2004)

That boy is plenty big enough for a .243. Heck, he's big enough for anything. What are you feeding him?


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

I started by shooting a .222 and .223 at targets to get the feel of a rifle and the bigger noise. When I finally went out to hunt, 12 years old, I used a .243 and it was not a heck of a lot different. I have shot a few deer with a .223 and was able to kill them fine with a well placed shot but feel more comfortable with the .243. I still use the .243 today for everything in south texas. Remington 700BDL with Leupold 3x9 scope.


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## Bigwater (May 21, 2004)

A head shot with that gun would be fine. It would be a clean kill. Sighted in right beforehand of course.

Bigwater


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

Just about any kid old enough to shoot can shoot a .243. My son is 11 and has been shooting my 300 Win Mag w/ a muzzle break since he was 8. Now, I don't know your boy, so my advice would be, go with whichever gun he is most comfortable with. Comfort breeds confidence and confidence breeds accuracy, which leads to clean kills.

I shot nothing larger than a .222 from the time I was 7 until I was about 16. It's what I had. I never lost a deer. Out to 100-125 yds the 222 is fine.


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## skinnyme (May 24, 2004)

I think the 223 is capable of killing a whitetail but I'd be more confident in the .243. 

I think your boy is plenty big enough for the 243. Thats the caliber I started out on and I was much smaller than he is.


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## Cru (May 24, 2004)

The .243 with 100 grains has proven deadly for me on several occasions. However, one big buck during the rut required several well-placed rounds to finally bring down. After that I got a 30-06.


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## JDS (Jul 14, 2004)

I have shot a .222 all my life, until recently. I have taken 60 - 70 deer with it with no problem. Of course I only take neck shots ( I have seen too many deer with broken jaws to shoot at the head ). The .222, and .223 are "tack drivers" and with practice, neck shots are no problem. My sons first deer he shot with a .222 in the neck with no problem. His second was a large buck and he was just too shaky to shoot at the neck. I (mistakenly) let him shoot it behind the shoulder with a .222. It took me 6 hours to find and finish off that deer. The projectile had hit a rib, and ricocheted into the stomach. I have seen this happen to quite a few other folks trying to body shoot a deer with a .222, and .223. Bottom line, unless he is very experienced with a .223, a good marksman, and over "buck fever", I would have him go with something larger that he can make a body shot with. The .243 is a fine choice.


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## Nikonos (May 22, 2004)

The difference in recoil felt from a .243 and a .223 should be very nominal. That 55 grain bullet loaded in the .223 is light enough to be deflected by bone. The first rifle I used as an 11 year old was a Ruger77 in .25-06 and to this day I have taken 6 deer with it and still bring it out of the closet every year to shoot. Recoil was never a problem, I just got kissed by the scope the first time I fired the gun so I learned really quick to hold onto that forearm good and tight. And I was a scrawny little thing so I'm sure your son wouldn't have any troubles with a larger caliber.


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## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

It depends on the boy's shooting skill and temperament. If he can hit a small target and has the temperament to wait until the deer is standing in the right position, a .223 will do the job for a reasonable range(150-200 yds). A .223 doesn't have the power to penetrate to the vitals unless the deer is facing or broadside to the shooter and there is very little room for mistakes in shot placement. If he can't shoot or don't have the temperament to wait until the deer is standing in the right position, then something bigger is definitely called for. 
I like to give a kid something that will kill cleanly with a reasonable shot placement from any angle. For that reason I recommend a 270. If recoil is a problem, put a muzzle brake on it.Then the kid feels like they are shooting loud .222 that kills very cleanly. A shot that goes in the rear and still cleanly kills the game is a mess to clean up, but one that doesn't have the power to reach the vitals from the rear is worse. Problem with a lot of kids and their first deer is, they don't stop to think about how far the bullet has to penetrate to kill cleanly. They see hair and horns and their trigger finger gets to itch somethin awful.


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## gunnut (Aug 3, 2004)

Either the 223 or the 243 will do 150yds or less, beyond that your testing the limits of a 223. Hornady V Max bullets have good velocity with hyper expansion for neck shots. Its what I would recomend. Stay away from the shoulder if possible b/c bone will delect the bullet.

honstly, ask Jake what he feel he can shoot. A 243 should be no problem.


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## gunnut (Aug 3, 2004)

Either the 223 or the 243 will do 150yds or less, beyond that your testing the limits of a 223. Hornady V Max bullets have good velocity with hyper expansion for neck shots. Its what I would recomend. Stay away from the shoulder if possible b/c bone will delect the bullet.

honstly, ask Jake what he feel he can shoot. A 243 should be no problem.


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## gunnut (Aug 3, 2004)

Either the 223 or the 243 will do 150yds or less, beyond that your testing the limits of a 223. Hornady V Max bullets have good velocity with hyper expansion for neck shots. Its what I would recomend. Stay away from the shoulder if possible b/c bone will delect the bullet.

honstly, ask Jake what he feel he can shoot. A 243 should be no problem.


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

Somebody's got an itchy "mouse" finger.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

I started my nephew off with a 7 mag and he sounds the same size as your boy, Tall and thin. B ut I got him a rifle he could use the rest of his life. He has shot two deer with it and can't wait till thanks giving. But my 9 year old has a 243. and its all he can handle.

R.R..


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## Marsh Monkey (Jul 16, 2004)

I have to vehemently disagree with gunnut on his recommendation of the Hornady V-max in .223. This is a frangible bullet that is designed to explode on impact and is designed to be used for small varmits.

In the hands of an expert the Hornady may be fine but you have zero margin for error.

If you have to go with the .223, Black Hills Ammunition loads a 60 grain Nosler Partition which is designed to hold together on tougher animals.

If you have access to a larger caliber like a .243 with 100 grain bullets you would be much better off. Something larger still would be even better.

Remember a 20 gauge shotgun kicks harder than a .270 in most cases. I'd bet most people would suggest a 20 gauge for your son over a .410 if you were talking shotguns.


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## Dunc (May 29, 2004)

I know this. An AR-15 shooting solids will knock a hog flat on his butt within reasonable distances (up to 100 yards +/-). That oughtta answer any questions as to the effectiveness of the .223.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

I bet you have to hit that hog in some part of his spine to do that.
Poke a hole in his lungs with that bullet and see how far he runs.

R.R.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Hog in the lungs? The only reason I've ever seen someone aim at anything other than the head is either 1) they are getting rid of them as pests and just want to make sure they hit it or 2) they are getting rid of them as pests and just want to make sure they hit it. LOL


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

InfamousJ said:


> Hog in the lungs? The only reason I've ever seen someone aim at anything other than the head is either 1) they are getting rid of them as pests and just want to make sure they hit it or 2) they are getting rid of them as pests and just want to make sure they hit it. LOL


One more

3. If they are bow hunting...twag!

I blew three shots last weekend....no..don't ask! LOL


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

Academy has a real sweet 243 on sale this fall.

Me, I'm giving up on the rifles. I'm getting a bag of oatmeal cookies and a new ball pin hammer. I'm going after those neighborhood deer ya'll keep talking about.


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## Dunc (May 29, 2004)

Redfishr said:


> I bet you have to hit that hog in some part of his spine to do that.
> Poke a hole in his lungs with that bullet and see how far he runs.
> 
> R.R.


I beg to differ:









BTW, that's a BEAR!!


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

I didnt say he wouldnt die But he's not gonna fall as if head shot. But we're talking about a kid that has not shot any thing, not a seasoned hunter or marksman.


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## Cru (May 24, 2004)

I would go with a .270, that way he won't outgrow it so fast.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

go with a 300. See what he's made of! Tell him that huntin' ain't for whiners.

Be sure he wears good hearing protection. You want him to hear you when you start yelling at him about making a sloppy gut shot.

Good thing I ain't a parent. I would end up raising a bunch of psychopaths.


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## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

If you're going with a 223, stay away from plastic tip bullets. Those are all made to expand violently (blow up) on small size varmints. The 223 has enough problems killing deer size game, to add that to the list.
The Nosler partition should be good (personally haven't tried Nosler partition 22 yet) or my favorite, which is the 64 gr Winchester power point. I've had very good luck with the Win power point bullet in high velocity 22s on deer size game. Its not quite as accurate as some of the other 22 cal bullets. To get better penetration and killing power out of a my high velocity 22 wildcat(64 gr bullet @ 3700+ F/S), I'll settle for 3/4" group instead of 1/4" group, when I'm shooting at something as big as a deer inside 300 yds. The same bullet in a 223, should work very well out close to 200 yds.


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## Rine_Everett (Jun 3, 2004)

OK I have to chime in. I do have a .223 and the biggest deer I killed last year was 230lbs. I shot him in the shoulder. He dropped then stood back up.(~200yds.) and ran a bit further out. As he angled to be running straight away from me, I let loose another round at the back of his head. By the time i looked back through the scope he was down then I heard the "CRACK" of his spine breaking. By this time he was approaching 250 yds. As i was cleaning him i looked at the dammage:
round #1 broke Left shoulder and destroyed both lungs. BUT did NOT Exit the opposit shoulder.
Round #2 Entered about 2,5-3 inches below POA and SHATERED the spine. Bullet continued through the deers swollen neck cutting the windpipe. When i bled the deer out the copper fragments fell out of the windpipe.

I use:
Savage 110 (bull barrel)
Harris Bipod
Simmons 6.5-20x44 Sighted in @200 (1.25 high at 100)
Black hills 68 gr match hollow point
this combonation for me does .8 @200 (carters country in june of 2003)

I agree with GD. Use what he is comfortable with and PLACE the bullet right where it needs to be. A kid who flinches when he shoots a 30-06 will miss or wound more deer than a kid who is comfortable with a .223.


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## Woodrow (Jun 17, 2004)

I donâ€™t recommend getting a .223. Yes it can kill deer, but youâ€™d be much better off going with a 243, 25-06, or a 270. I shot a 243 at age 6 and it was okay. The 25-06 is a nice in between of the 3, itâ€™s a great deer round for all ages (the 243 is too). 



If you do decide on a 223, I would strongly advise not to use a hollow point or polymer tipped bullet, as mentioned above. In addition to the 2 rounds Gun Doc mentioned, Federal loads a 55gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullet that is real tough as well. I have a 22-250 and Iâ€™ve killed some deer with it. I advise against head shots and be very careful with a neck shot. Use the right bullet and go behind the shoulder. You wonâ€™t get much of a blood trail either. I used that 60gr. Hornady soft points last year and had good results. 



Another thing to think about is that if you are worried about the recoil, get a heavier gun. A real light gun will kick more, and since you are probably going to be hunting from a stand, the weight shouldnâ€™t matter too much. There are also after market recoil pads. Of course, a muzzle break would certainly help the most, but they are loud.


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## mudd_catt (May 22, 2004)

I would not go with a 223. In the hands of an inexperienced hunter (no matter the age) it will be a mistake. My 13 year old has been shooting a Remington auto 270 for the past four years, and as long as he has a solid rest, he can hit just as well as I can. (almost) My 15 year old daughter took my Ruger bolt-action 270 away from me cause she "wanted something with more power", and wants something bigger. I would recommend at LEAST a 243, 25-06 or something not mentioned yet, 7mm-08.


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## BillyG (Oct 19, 2004)

Dang! 

Where are the 30-30 Fans? I can't count how many people I know started out with a 30-30. Scoped or unscoped? I would suggest a scope. These are cheap guns proven in the brush. 

I think Wal-Mart has them for $279. Not to mention they are quite handy with the hogs. Knock down? Yeah it has it. A great East Texas Gun.

I thought this was an unspoken east texas rule before I saw this post.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

That boy wouldn't like the recoil of a lever action 30-30.
I think that was the concerne.


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## BillyG (Oct 19, 2004)

Yeah it will have some kick, but the shoulders got to be conditioned some time. Another reason why 30-30's are so popular is because they are small like youth guns.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

good point!


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## badfisher (Jun 9, 2004)

My 2 pennies....the .223 would be more than enough gun if the shot placement is where it needs to be. Think about this...a .223 at 200 yards still has more ft/lbs of energy than any arrow at 20 yards and how many deer are killed with archery equip every year.


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## bbridges (May 21, 2004)

It'll all fall back on shot placement. Think about how many deer have been killed over the years by a 22 magnum. As long as the shooter is able to calm themself down enough to place the shot it won't matter if its a .223 or a 300. My personal choice would be a 270. Just my opinion.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

If you can afford it , I think he should get a full sized calib. and muzzle brake it for the boy. I'm not a fan of muzzle breaks but they work. 
Then he can have a rifle for life that will kill anything at most ranges.
You can always remove the break if he gets bigger and cap it.
Just like Whats his face said his boy shoots his 300 mag with a break.
From 50 to 400 yds, dead deer if he can hit it.


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## BillyG (Oct 19, 2004)

You guys have some very good points! In regards to the original poster, he said that this would be the kids first hunt. All the guns that were specified were long range guns. I am not being rude when I say this but practical, a gun that is very effective to 100 yards would be better suited because of the experience level.

I am not saying the kid cant shoot, but a first time hunter? What about the shakes and excitment of the first kill and so on.

I have been hunting so many times, I dont want to go on about my experience, but I am still careful on my shots and I still try not to shoot past 200 yards so that I can be certain of a clean kill.

Once again I am not trying to be rude, but a little practical to this application. Alot of you guys a seasoned veterans that are more than capable.

30-30 Baby!

FYI - I was first reared on a .270, but I didnt dare take shots past 100 yards until 3 or 4 years later.


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## Shaky (May 21, 2004)

No caliber is too small....until you cant find the animal you hit. Buy the biggest caliber you think he can comfortably handle. 
Practice, Practice, Practice and then practice some more. 10 shots at the range the week before season isnt practice.


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## Bret (May 21, 2004)

I hunted east texas for 5 yrs and on the last day of the season one year, I let a buddy borrow my 270 and I used my mini14 .223..... I had been target shooting and put the clip in with the fmj's instead of my lead points... long story short, I shot a little freak spike, quartering away. he jumped and ran a few yards and layed down. I waited 30 mins and went to go check him out and there was 2 drops of blood but no deer. We looked for him for a day and a half and never found him. I hate to waste meat, but it was my mistake for putting the wrong type of ammo in the gun I was using. I have killed several others with the same gun using lead point bullets without any problem. 
I would have to agree with other posts....on calibers, 243,25-06, 270 would be my recommendation. put a decellerator pad or a sims vibration lab pad on it if you cant afford a muzzle brake. 
But the main thing is have the boy shoot the gun often and be comfortable knowing how the gun will shoot.


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## CHunter (May 25, 2004)

I feel that if a person can bow hunt, then why can't he hunt with a .223. Ballistically speaking the .223 has a whole lot more to offer than the arrow.


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## Bret (May 21, 2004)

Yeah, but a 3 bladed broadhead will do more damage than a22cal bullet. IMO.


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## roger1shot (Jul 28, 2004)

*Old Post*

Hey,

Check out some of my old post,here you will find my thoughts on Kids guns and handloading,bigger rifles down.


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## JettyJumper (May 21, 2004)

a 223 is a fine choice for a SEASONED SHOOTER. i wouldnt give a kid a 22 hornet to a 243 if they wasn't a GOOD marksmen. too small of a bullet for any mistakes. i have seen many a deer get wounded by such small rounds by 1st time shooters (mostly kids). i would suggest a 25-06 or 260 for your son. i used a 270 when i was 10 or 11 (5' 80#)and i did fine. now i have scaled down to a 223 and 243 that i shoot deer with. all my shots are neck shots or shoulder blade shots. my first deer with my 223 was at 150yds and it broke both sholder blades and the spine. the buck flew over sideways and didnt die& i had to finsih it off with another shot. i've only had one deer run on me more than 50 yds with my 223 and that was becasue i shot behind teh shoulder (64 gr. power point) at 125yds. took me 4 or 5 hours to track that son of a buck. i use a savage 110 .223 with a 3-9x32 bushnel scope, a remington 700 .243 with a weaver 4-12x40 and a remington 700 .270 with a weaver 4-12x40... all are supurb guns... 

if you do decide to give him a 223 or 243, go to the range or a pasture and shoot about 3 boxes of shells at various deer sized tagets. and use a quality scope. 3-9x40 or 4-12x50 would be good. dont skip on the optics. with such a small grained bullet it has to be placed right. also get a professional to sight the gun in at 100yds or 150 yds... also dont skip on bullets. hornady and winchester soft tips or power points. dont get under 64 graines with the 223. also the wincehster supreme shells are not fit for deer. more varmitity loads. 

you might also want to ask your freinds if your son could tet shoot their guns if they have a caliber that he wants to shoot. he might be able to shoot a 300 super mag or might just be able to handle a 243... also stay away from a .257 roberts and a .264 rem. and a 30-30. those loads are not as groupable as a more popular load, like a 223, 243, 25-06, 260, 264, 270, and a 280..... good luck........JJ


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Hey guys a 22 mag has probally taken more deer than any other gun made, you just dont hear of them doing so. I wonder why??????? I took 4 deer at age 8 (I'm 51 now) off the "YO" 2 of which were with a 243 and the other 2 with a 30-30. That same winter my dad bought me a Rem 740 30-06 and the next yr we made a return trip to the "YO" and I took 4 more does with it. Fast forward to 1985 my son took his first 2 deer at age 7 with a 223, the first deer he hit in the front elbow and bullet turned str8 up and exploded heart, second he hit in the whitespot in neck of deer facing forward and broke neck. The first deer would have been crippled with a bigger cal. gun as it would have probally took front leg off. My other son took his first deer at age 7 with a "Sweet Sixteen" # 1s. I bought oldest son Rem 742 30-06 at age 9 and my youngest son has been shooting a Rem 7mm mag since he was 13. My stepson at age 7 took his first turkey with a 20ga auto loaded with 3"mag Turkey lds BUT I had him practice with low brass and when the morning we hunted it was full of the 3" mags (BIG Diference) and he never blinked an eye. I think most of the fear in kids and larger calibers come from what they hear from there peers in school and from some adults. My family has run a Deer processing and Taxidermy bussiness for 20+ yrs. and have heard EVERY story you could imagine about small n lrg calibers and kids. Every body here knows you dont feel the kick or hear the bang when shooting at a animal. Buy him a gun that he can hunt with from now on, my choice WOULD NOT be a 223 or a 243!!!! What ever your choice is, all will work, the most important thing is have your child trust you and your choice for them.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Failed to mention a 223 or 243 or any other small fast bullit will turn or explode upon contact with a spider web, leaf or twigg.


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## SaHunter (May 23, 2004)

If you are leaning towards a 223, a good "off-the-shelf" price versus accuracy (reliability included) is a Savage 223 in a bull barrel (model without the adjustible trigger if you have a choice). Then practice, practice, and practice. 

In terms of shot placement, a good neck or head shot (previous posts mentioned that) will drop anything. I prefer between the eyes, or in the eyes, or in the ear or between the eye and ear. If you can't shoot on paper, don't expect to shoot when the real time comes.

Recently (last week) I shot a large axis buck in the neck with my trusty 22 hornet. My 80 year old neighbor does the same with a 22 hornet with no front sight. He has shot that gun so many times, he didnt relace the front sight when it fell off (not that I recommend shooting without proper sights but you get my point). 

My 22 hornet has killed about 5 axis bucks (and does) and 10 pigs by now (in the last 3 years) and that is because I didn't have my 223 with me at the time. It's not necessarily about the caliber if we agree that experience has a lot to do with it (again noted in a previous post and with the exception of larger game animals) but one's familiarity with a gun. I own all custom guns (300 win mag, 270, 223, and a 308) with the exception of that 22 hornet (bull barrel new england arms $75 pawn shop special with an old reliable 3x9 redfield scope) so I've got alot of money tied up in experience. 

Second, get him some great optics (mine are all leupold with the exception of that hornet) and you will experience many great years of hunting in Texas. Now if you want one all-around gun, the 300 win mag with a muzzled break will work (see other posts on this board). Why you ask do I offer a 223 as the solution when I own all other calibers? Well Texas does not have a regulation like other states (Kansas for example requires anything over a 22 caliber- like 243 minimum- which says something about the size of the animals in Kansas). Yes I hunt Kansas and Alaska (and a few other states) which tells you I have had to contend with caliber choices for other regions of the U.S.. But when in Texas (if not smacking mulies in West Texas with my 300 win mag), that 223 will come out of the case more often that the other calibers (again excepting that 22 hornet as my truck/ranch gun which sees action in non-planned situations). 

Don't forget a good choice in ammo. Any of the premium grades will work, but testing ammo for a particular gun is important. I am not one of those this grain versus that grain enthusiasts, but a solid choice appropriate for the animal will always work. In fact, I now believe that is more important than the caliber sometimes. But that is another whole discussion.


There is alot to debate in what I have said (and I am sure someone will chime up that I am all wet), but that is my two cents.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

SaHunter said:


> If you are leaning towards a 223, a good "off-the-shelf" price versus accuracy (reliability included) is a Savage 223 in a bull barrel (model without the adjustible trigger if you have a choice). Then practice, practice, and practice.
> 
> In terms of shot placement, a good neck or head shot (previous posts mentioned that) will drop anything. I prefer between the eyes, or in the eyes, or in the ear or between the eye and ear. If you can't shoot on paper, don't expect to shoot when the real time comes.
> 
> ...


I don't think your all wet, maybe just a little damp.


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## SaHunter (May 23, 2004)

Redfishr...

Lets see the pic with a scale reading of those two mulies hanging because the province record is around 250lbs. Sounds like another Redfishr fish story to me lol.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

I don't recall sayin 2 mulies .
One was average size, but the other was the monster.
And it wasn't 40 inches at the base of his neck it was in the middle.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

*dont knock the broadhead*

Chunter dont knock the broadhead. If you shoot me in the leg with a gun and I shoot you in leg with a broadhead, I will drive myself to the hospital, you will die on the way


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

I think he's right , cut viens are probably worse than exploded ones.


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