# Very Disappointing



## Jack's Pocket

Have had 12 nice bucks since season opening day within 15 yards and not a legal one .
Genetically I don't see how the state can expect to upgrade the herd without the infusion of different DNA.
This like me expecting a different calf crop next year using the same bull on my cow herd.
I have seen some really nice heavy high horn racks this year on mature deer.
Looks like a couple of does here and Central Texas in 
gun for the horns.


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## Mr. Saltwater

We have some mature bucks on my East Texas lease that will never be legal under the current antler restrictions. Time will tell the true effects of the inevitable thinning out of the wider rack genetics.


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## Jack's Pocket

Mr. Saltwater said:


> We have some mature bucks on my East Texas lease that will never be legal under the current antler restrictions. Time will tell the true effects of the inevitable thinning out of the wider rack genetics.


I sat on the stand from daylight until 2pm today lots of activity.
I understand the idea of letting the bucks mature and agree with philosophy.
It just seems to me we are going about this backwards and should be letting the big boys walk for a couple of years. 
I did pretty good in college biology wish 
they could explain to me how leaving 12 inch wide genetics for breeding will produce
wider.


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## Cynoscion

Nobody's going to like my answer but here goes anyway.

Recent research suggests that we, as deer managers, will never effect the genetic makeup of a wild, free ranging deer herd. There are way to many variables that come into play. Examples: what antler characteristics is the doe segment of the herd carrying/passing on, how is nutrition or lack there of suppressing genetic potential, which bucks are doing the majority of the breeding, etc, etc, etc. so TPWD's goal is not to effect genetics.

The goal of antler restrictions is to get more bucks into the older age classes. The average hunter cannot, with any regularity, age deer on the hoof. In my opinion, this is simply b/c of a lack of exposure. Most people can't age deer b/c they've never spent a lot of time evaluating a properly managed deer herd and thus have never seen a lot of mature bucks for comparison purposes.

I understand your frustration but it is the only way to get bucks into the older age classes. You simply can't trust the average hunter to lay off of shooting young bucks without some kind of criteria and antler restrictions are that criteria.


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## Jack's Pocket

Cynoscion said:


> Nobody's going to like my answer but here goes anyway.
> 
> Recent research suggests that we, as deer managers, will never effect the genetic makeup of a wild, free ranging deer herd. There are way to many variables that come into play. Examples: what antler characteristics is the doe segment of the herd carrying/passing on, how is nutrition or lack there of suppressing genetic potential, which bucks are doing the majority of the breeding, etc, etc, etc. so TPWD's goal is not to effect genetics.
> 
> The goal of antler restrictions is to get more bucks into the older age classes. The average hunter cannot, with any regularity, age deer on the hoof. In my opinion, this is simply b/c of a lack of exposure. Most people can't age deer b/c they've never spent a lot of time evaluating a properly managed deer herd and thus have never seen a lot of mature bucks for comparison purposes.
> 
> I understand your frustration but it is the only way to get bucks into the older age classes. You simply can't trust the average hunter to lay off of shooting young bucks without some kind of criteria and antler restrictions are that criteria.


I don't disagree with any of that.
The problem I see with the one size fits all
philosophy doesn't work.
Killed this boy couple years ago, he is one heck of a deer for this area. 
He was 13 inches huge body deer.
Warden aged him at 4.5.
Now I have killed a lot of deer here and he is the biggest one ever from "here".


This is a cull out of central Texas and he is wider than anything I have ever killed here.
He was nowhere close to being in the class with the bucket boy.


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## Captn C

Cynoscion said:


> Nobody's going to like my answer but here goes anyway.
> 
> Recent research suggests that we, as deer managers, will never effect the genetic makeup of a wild, free ranging deer herd. There are way to many variables that come into play. Examples: what antler characteristics is the doe segment of the herd carrying/passing on, how is nutrition or lack there of suppressing genetic potential, which bucks are doing the majority of the breeding, etc, etc, etc. so TPWD's goal is not to effect genetics.
> 
> The goal of antler restrictions is to get more bucks into the older age classes. The average hunter cannot, with any regularity, age deer on the hoof. In my opinion, this is simply b/c of a lack of exposure. Most people can't age deer b/c they've never spent a lot of time evaluating a properly managed deer herd and thus have never seen a lot of mature bucks for comparison purposes.
> 
> I understand your frustration but it is the only way to get bucks into the older age classes. You simply can't trust the average hunter to lay off of shooting young bucks without some kind of criteria and antler restrictions are that criteria.


There you boys! This man knows his deer!

I agree 100% because I have believed this for years. I managed a high fenced property for several years before the owner sold it. We couldn't do much to alter the antler configuration because the doe has no identifying characteristics to id her as good bad or average genetics. So all you can really do is remove a mouth to feed.

Although we did have one event that altered our genetics...we lost our wide high point count gene to a anthrax's die-off...


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## Jack's Pocket

Captn C said:


> There you boys! This man knows his deer!
> 
> I agree 100% because I have believed this for years. I managed a high fenced property for several years before the owner sold it. We couldn't do much to alter the antler configuration because the doe has no identifying characteristics to id her as good bad or average genetics. So all you can really do is remove a mouth to feed.


Had the biologist tell me we need to be killing our does. Here is my problem I ask the biologist if I have three does one with good genetics and two with bad. How do I know which one to shoot.


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## Cynoscion

The op and I agree. I'm not saying TPWD is right, just simply saying that antler restrictions are the only way they will ever recruit deer to the older age classes. i would bet, however, that the lack of perceived antler quality you notice is NOT genetic related.

First, fix nutrition.
Second, fix age structure

Then you can blame genetics.

I do have a problem with the "cull" from central Texas in your post. I know of and/or have worked on some of the best free ranging populations of Whitetails in south Texas and on NONE of them would that buck be considered a cull. Just sayin


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## T_rout

Jack's Pocket said:


> Had the biologist tell me we need to be killing our does. Here is my problem I ask the biologist if I have three does one with good genetics and two with bad. How do I know which one to shoot.


The answer to your question and the absolute rebuttal of cynocins statement about us as managers is simple. As managers we have at our disposal thousands of deer that have been bred with superior genetics. Remove the does you continue to guess about their genetics and replace them with proven genetics. Don't tell me that's not natural or that's cheating or blah blah blah blah blah! It's the same thing as you planting lab lab and your neighbor planting nothing! You are managing/controlling your deer herd. Well it's not natural or native genetics.... Neither is culling inferior bucks, heck that's what the op was talking about from the beginning. There is no line in the sand! If you believe in culling inferior genetics then the only reason you can be against introducing "improved" genetics is the fact that you have tons of time to weed out the deer you don't like or you can't afford to buy a few does........ It's that simple!


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## Captn C

Jack's Pocket said:


> Had the biologist tell me we need to be killing our does. Here is my problem I ask the biologist if I have three does one with good genetics and two with bad. How do I know which one to shoot.


If you read between the lines...he is telling you, you need less mouths to feed....


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## Cynoscion

Although not my cup of T (that's a good one, right?) or within most folk's financial means, T_rout is right. The fastest and quite possibly the only way to get completely rid of the age old question of "is it genetics or nutrition" is to rid your place of native deer and bring in genetically mapped and proven deer that fit your idea of "the perfect deer" but that would be too easy and then what would we argue about!


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## Captn C

T_rout said:


> The answer to your question and the absolute rebuttal of cynocins statement about us as managers is simple. As managers we have at our disposal thousands of deer that have been bred with superior genetics. Remove the does you continue to guess about their genetics and replace them with proven genetics. Don't tell me that's not natural or that's cheating or blah blah blah blah blah! It's the same thing as you planting lab lab and your neighbor planting nothing! You are managing/controlling your deer herd. Well it's not natural or native genetics.... Neither is culling inferior bucks, heck that's what the op was talking about from the beginning. There is no line in the sand! If you believe in culling inferior genetics then the only reason you can be against introducing "improved" genetics is the fact that you have tons of time to weed out the deer you don't like or you can't afford to buy a few does........ It's that simple!


 I'm pretty sure it's been proven that "buying a few does" get absorbed into the gene pool as well. Adding a few does about the same good as removing a few.

We tired it and the improvements where not noticeable. They had ear tags so we didn't shoot any of them, but their off spring (doe) could have all been shot...who knows for sure...


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## Jack's Pocket

Cynoscion said:


> The op and I agree. I'm not saying TPWD is right, just simply saying that antler restrictions are the only way they will ever recruit deer to the older age classes. i would bet, however, that the lack of perceived antler quality you notice is NOT genetic related.
> 
> First, fix nutrition.
> Second, fix age structure
> 
> Then you can blame genetics.
> 
> I do have a problem with the "cull" from central Texas in your post. I know of and/or have worked on some of the best free ranging populations of Whitetails in south Texas and on NONE of them would that buck be considered a cull. Just sayin


Nutrition can't be fixed when 96% of the county is in pine plantation. The paper companies are managing the land for pine growth not deer.
Antler quality went down in the 70's with the clear cutting polices to almost complete trash. Deer don't eat pine straw what has been created is a Pine Desert.
I agree with what you are saying.
I am saying the TPWD are asking the deer to do something they can't. The nutrition is not there. 
Feeding corn doesn't build antlers.
I have protein feed and food plots out 365 that doesn't help the thousands of acres of pine plantation surrounding me.


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## Cynoscion

The only way to fix your nutrition problem on small acreage in pine country is to create a COOP with your like minded neighbors. If you can manage several small places as one large one, you will see the benefits of increasing the nutritional plane. If you can't talk your neighbors into it, then you are really doomed to what you have. My best advice at that point would be to hunt somewhere else where you can be surrounded by like minded neighbors.

I have managed a 13,000 acre pine plantation is SW Georgia and grown some really good deer there simply by giving them the nutrition so I know it's possible.

Good luck. Often the hardest part of wildlife management is changing people's perceptions and preconceived notions.


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## Jack's Pocket

T_rout said:


> The answer to your question and the absolute rebuttal of cynocins statement about us as managers is simple. As managers we have at our disposal thousands of deer that have been bred with superior genetics. Remove the does you continue to guess about their genetics and replace them with proven genetics. Don't tell me that's not natural or that's cheating or blah blah blah blah blah! It's the same thing as you planting lab lab and your neighbor planting nothing! You are managing/controlling your deer herd. Well it's not natural or native genetics.... Neither is culling inferior bucks, heck that's what the op was talking about from the beginning. There is no line in the sand! If you believe in culling inferior genetics then the only reason you can be against introducing "improved" genetics is the fact that you have tons of time to weed out the deer you don't like or you can't afford to buy a few does........ It's that simple!


I actively try and manage my place as well
as my neighbor. We are not trying to kid ourselves either. Managing 300 acres is not going to impact the herd.
What I think is a real shame is my ten old grandson can't shoot a buck off his Paw paw's place. I am thankful I am financial able to take him other places he can.


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## Captn C

Jack's Pocket said:


> Nutrition can't be fixed when 96% of the county is in pine plantation. The paper companies are managing the land for pine growth not deer.
> Antler quality went down in the 70's with the clear cutting polices to almost complete trash. Deer don't eat pine straw what has been created is a Pine Desert.
> I agree with what you are saying.
> I am saying the TPWD are asking the deer to do something they can't. The nutrition is not there.
> Feeding corn doesn't build antlers.
> I have protein feed and food plots out 365 that doesn't help the thousands of acres of pine plantation surrounding me.


 Control what you can and not let the stuff you can't control bother you. Just do what you can....


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## redfish bayrat

*basket rack*

I'm hunting in Colorado county and have taken two bucks off my lease since 2005. Don't know what the neighbors are doing. I'm on a small part of a 1000 acre rance. All I see are high basket rack deer. I have years of pictures to compare. The buck below is 4.5 years old and has about a 12 inch spread. He is not outside his ears and is the biggest body buck I have seen this year. 
Since the buck contributes 1/2 the dna for a doe fawn, having basket racks doing most of the breeding is watering down or narrowing your genetic pool. Eventually this type of rack will be the rule and not the exception and you wont be able to shoot anything. If does need to be thinned, then open up the gun season for doe harvest without all the special permits.


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## T_rout

Captn C said:


> I'm pretty sure it's been proven that "buying a few does" get absorbed into the gene pool as well. Adding a few does about the same good as removing a few.
> 
> We tired it and the improvements where not noticeable. They had ear tags so we didn't shoot any of them, but their off spring (doe) could have all been shot...who knows for sure...


There are tons of scenarios but you can't introduce 3 does into a population of 150 deer and seriously expect results. It's not gonna happen. Does normally travel in matriarchal groups so if you shot a young doe that was hanging around a doe with a tag in her ear then you probably whacked a good doe. Shoot the does early or late, before they break up for the rut or after they group back up. It's not that hard to do.


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## T_rout

Cynoscion said:


> The only way to fix your nutrition problem on small acreage in pine country is to create a COOP with your like minded neighbors. If you can manage several small places as one large one, you will see the benefits of increasing the nutritional plane. If you can't talk your neighbors into it, then you are really doomed to what you have. My best advice at that point would be to hunt somewhere else where you can be surrounded by like minded neighbors.
> 
> I have managed a 13,000 acre pine plantation is SW Georgia and grown some really good deer there simply by giving them the nutrition so I know it's possible.
> 
> Good luck. Often the hardest part of wildlife management is changing people's perceptions and preconceived notions.


I completely agree about the preconceived notions. I hear guys all the time talking about how this protein is good but this one sucks. Supplemental feed is just that, it supplements what the deer are lacking in your area. I have personally seen the same feed do wonders for one deer herd and reduce antler growth and body weight for another. Go back and look at all the deer contests and then compare the rainfall during the peak times for that year and you will see that Mother Nature will always produce the biggest bucks, nutritionally speaking, than you or I can ever do. Rain in February, March and April will produce some monster bucks. I'm not saying that supplemental feed is a waste by any stretch of the imagination. I'm saying that improving natural habitat to its fullest and mature deer will produce the biggest bucks you have ever seen on hour particular ranch. If you can get your neighbors to help out and agree to a plan you're better off. The larger sample size the better. It's all up to you! How bad do you want it? Sure a buck is legal, is he legal and 6 years old? Who cares right? He's legal so he'll do. Absolutely not! Take a few pics of him and approach your neighbor to let him walk. If you kill him you know he's dead. If you don't he might pass on his genes to a few more bucks.


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## Jack's Pocket

redfish bayrat said:


> I'm hunting in Colorado county and have taken two bucks off my lease since 2005. Don't know what the neighbors are doing. I'm on a small part of a 1000 acre rance. All I see are high basket rack deer. I have years of pictures to compare. The buck below is 4.5 years old and has about a 12 inch spread. He is not outside his ears and is the biggest body buck I have seen this year.
> Since the buck contributes 1/2 the dna for a doe fawn, having basket racks doing most of the breeding is watering down or narrowing your genetic pool. Eventually this type of rack will be the rule and not the exception and you wont be able to shoot anything. If does need to be thinned, then open up the gun season for doe harvest without all the special permits.


That is like the bucket buck I posted.
That deer is in a 6 foot bucket with his butt
against one end and his nose at the other.
That is absolutely huge for here.
This is where I think DNA comes in.
This particular deer found the right nutrition 
for growth during his life.
He weighed an easy 50 pounds more than our average buck. At his age and size he was as good as he was ever going to be.


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## ruquick

I feel you! I seen this guy for a couple of years but never thought he was a 13" + buck so he walked every year. He must have moved on or someone else dropped him because I havenâ€™t seen him the last two years. I have seen several deer that should have been taken due to poor genetics but didnâ€™t fit the 13" rule.


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## TexasSlam18

I have seen 3 deer killed on the 7k acres we hunt in newton county in the last 3 years that were all under 13" and ALL 3 deer got checked by a game warden. The game warden aged the 3 deer and all of them were 5.5+. He said, "this deer is not what the 13 inch rule is for." He also said if you shoot and older deer and do get a ticket for it in another county you can take it to court and it will most likely be dismissed. Contact your local game warden and I almost guarantee if you have a 5.5 year old deer that is clearly a shooter, he will agree to pull the trigger. Most game wardens are hunters and they understand what's going on.


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## Jack's Pocket

TexasSlam18 said:


> I have seen 3 deer killed on the 7k acres we hunt in newton county in the last 3 years that were all under 13" and ALL 3 deer got checked by a game warden. The game warden aged the 3 deer and all of them were 5.5+. He said, "this deer is not what the 13 inch rule is for." He also said if you shoot and older deer and do get a ticket for it in another county you can take it to court and it will most likely be dismissed. Contact your local game warden and I almost guarantee if you have a 5.5 year old deer that is clearly a shooter, he will agree to pull the trigger. Most game wardens are hunters and they understand what's going on.


Here in lies the problem talked to ours today regarding exactly what you referred to on the older deer.
Both here said you will be hauled before the JP and fined.


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## Trouthunter

> I have seen 3 deer killed on the 7k acres we hunt in newton county in the last 3 years that were all under 13" and ALL 3 deer got checked by a game warden. The game warden aged the 3 deer and all of them were 5.5+. He said, "this deer is not what the 13 inch rule is for." He also said if you shoot and older deer and do get a ticket for it in another county you can take it to court and it will most likely be dismissed. Contact your local game warden and I almost guarantee if you have a 5.5 year old deer that is clearly a shooter, he will agree to pull the trigger. Most game wardens are hunters and they understand what's going on.


LOL! Uhm no. The law is on the books and all you'll get is a ticket, some money out of your pocket and hope that's all.

The 13" rule has been a blessing for us on my place but guys remember we've been in a severe drought for how many years now? It does indeed have a lot to do with the quality of our deer herd.

If you're not MLD then get with the State and become one. Form a Co-Op as was suggested and watch for progress. Your biologist will issue doe tags if your survey counts show that the herd needs thinning.

I completely understand some folks frustrations but in my part of the state the good results from the 13" rule far outweigh any bad.

TH


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## Jack's Pocket

I'm through and I killed my first deer 50 years ago.
I am sick of being regulated to death on my own land.
The days on me sitting on the side of a tree for a season hoping to see a shooter are over.
The reg is one of the very reasons I quit as president
of a 6000 acre lease the money out and the headaches
to shoot a doe. I can buy a meat hunt anywhere in Texas cheaper. 
MLD is crooked as a dogs hind leg just like the TPWD appointed commissioners. 
All MLD is about is letting large land owners do what they want to.

I will spend my money in Ky or Ga. for a deer.


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## Woodrow

I think a lot of people need to open their minds when it comes to Antler Restrictions.

Antler Restrictions are a broad attempt to get more age on bucks (and increase hunter awareness). 

Harvest regulations set for an entire county will never fit every property within it...period. And even if you narrowed it down further, like sections or units within a county, it still wouldn't fit every property. TPWD obviously understands this, which is where various programs like MLDP (& others) come into play. TPWD gives you an opportunity to nearly set your own regulations, you just have to put forth some effort and prove you know what you're doing/justify what you want to do. The more effort you give, the more flexibility they give. TPWD isn't going to just hand out flexibility to anyone that asks. 

Having said that, even MLDP Level 3 probably isn't going to fit all situations (i.e. small acreage). I'll use our family place as an example. We have 110 acres (90% woods/brush) in an Antler Restriction county. We have a good buck to doe ratio (reality is probably 1:2, but it seems like 1:1). In my opinion we can probably sustain harvesting 4 to 6 "mature" bucks a year (NOT top grading) depending on conditions, which is A LOT for 110 acres, but I believe this b/c of what is around us: acreage that can hold deer and low to moderate hunting pressure (which is aided by Antler Restrictions). While I would like for us to be able to harvest a "mature" or "old" buck that is less than 13" wide (especially for our kids), without forming a MLDP Co-op with neighboring landowners I think the chances of a TPWD biologist granting us more than 1 buck tag a year are pretty slim. Maybe we'll eventually try to form a co-op, but I don't have enough time or motivation do it any time soon. So even though I wish AR's didn't apply to our property, I'm glad they do to the property around us. I can live with that.


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## wet dreams

Jack's Pocket said:


> Nutrition can't be fixed when 96% of the county is in pine plantation. The paper companies are managing the land for pine growth not deer.
> Antler quality went down in the 70's with the clear cutting polices to almost complete trash. Deer don't eat pine straw what has been created is a Pine Desert.
> I agree with what you are saying.
> I am saying the TPWD are asking the deer to do something they can't. The nutrition is not there.
> Feeding corn doesn't build antlers.
> I have protein feed and food plots out 365 that doesn't help the thousands of acres of pine plantation surrounding me.


I disagree with the pine plantation not providing nutrition. Plenty of browse from day 1 till 10yr old then when they come strip it good browse starts again, deer die of old age in the plantations, not much leased property thats NOT pine plantations. We have several thousand acres that was sheared last yr and planted this spring....it's LOADED with deer right now. Most people that hate the plantations is because its so hard to hunt UNLESS you have a cpl of Blue Ticks and maybe a Flagtailed Walker or 2.....


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## TexasSlam18

Trouthunter said:


> LOL! Uhm no. The law is on the books and all you'll get is a ticket, some money out of your pocket and hope that's all.
> 
> The 13" rule has been a blessing for us on my place but guys remember we've been in a severe drought for how many years now? It does indeed have a lot to do with the quality of our deer herd.
> 
> If you're not MLD then get with the State and become one. Form a Co-Op as was suggested and watch for progress. Your biologist will issue doe tags if your survey counts show that the herd needs thinning.
> 
> I completely understand some folks frustrations but in my part of the state the good results from the 13" rule far outweigh any bad.
> 
> TH


I didn't say I disagree with the 13" rule. I think it is the best thing that has happened to the deer herd in our county, at least in awhile. Our property is mld and like you implied, the biologist do a great job helping manage our numbers and ratio. It doesn't affect me one way or the other about the 13" rule or most people on our place. I don't have any intention to shoot a deer under 13"... it does not interest me one bit. All I was saying is if you want to shoot one bad call your GW and tell him about the particular deer, email him a picture or whatever you want to do. And clearly that is in newton county, and it is on a deer to deer basis. But saying "LOL! Uhm no," is flat out rude (keeping it G-rated). If you think I made that up or I am a liar PM me and I will get Charles Smith or Landon Spaceic's number (newton co. GW) to let the confirm it for you.


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## txjustin

TexasSlam18 said:


> I have seen 3 deer killed on the 7k acres we hunt in newton county in the last 3 years that were all under 13" and ALL 3 deer got checked by a game warden. The game warden aged the 3 deer and all of them were 5.5+. He said, "this deer is not what the 13 inch rule is for." He also said if you shoot and older deer and do get a ticket for it in another county you can take it to court and it will most likely be dismissed. Contact your local game warden and I almost guarantee if you have a 5.5 year old deer that is clearly a shooter, he will agree to pull the trigger. Most game wardens are hunters and they understand what's going on.


Games wardens are not interpreters of laws, they enforce the law. I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you. You shoot that <13"er, you'll be getting a ticket and almost certainly not get it dismissed. I'd contact your LOCAL GW before thinking either way.


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## Jack's Pocket

wet dreams said:


> I disagree with the pine plantation not providing nutrition. Plenty of browse from day 1 till 10yr old then when they come strip it good browse starts again, deer die of old age in the plantations, not much leased property thats NOT pine plantations. We have several thousand acres that was sheared last yr and planted this spring....it's LOADED with deer right now. Most people that hate the plantations is because its so hard to hunt UNLESS you have a cpl of Blue Ticks and maybe a Flagtailed Walker or 2.....


You haven't seen the new herbicide program to kill the underbrush a program headed your way.
The thing you don't understand is the current policies are alienating many of the local landowners.
These are the same people that vote in the State Rep
where you hunt. The same ones burning his ears up as well.
The discussion after church last night was why do we deer hunt anymore. Everyone in this group of men owns viable hunting tracts. The paper companies don't care about deer management.
Not good. The policy is turning landowners in counties you hunt against you.


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## TexasSlam18

txjustin said:


> Games wardens are not interpreters of laws, they enforce the law. I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you. You shoot that <13"er, you'll be getting a ticket and almost certainly not get it dismissed. I'd contact your LOCAL GW before thinking either way.


Like I said in my next post buddy, I don't care about it because I'm not shooting a 13" deer, period. But you don't have to agree with me but that came right out of the game wardens mouth 2 weeks ago about an old deer blahbblah. If you want his number PM me and I will get it to you and you can call him and hear it yourself


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## txjustin

TexasSlam18 said:


> Like I said in my next post buddy, I don't care about it because I'm not shooting a 13" deer, period. But you don't have to agree with me but that came right out of the game wardens mouth 2 weeks ago about an old deer blahbblah. If you want his number PM me and I will get it to you and you can call him and hear it yourself


No worries, just giving my point of view. There was a good thread on texasbowhunter recently on this very topic with a GW posting in it giving the opposite response.


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## Trouthunter

> All MLD is about is letting large land owners do what they want to.


I own 240 acres...I'm far from being a large land owner. A MLD is about managing your land and I won't go into what all you have to do to earn it, you can look that up.

But from your statement, you're done so no use going into it.

Good luck.

TH


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## tha bum

OP, i feel you pain I did and felt the same as you untill i had enough and called it quits, its all about how much work and money you are willing to do/spend to get your deer wide enough to shoot. Now i just fish more the TPWD has not screwed that up for me yet. Alot of the timber co. and paper co. land has been sold to private investors and they want to make as much money as they can untill they turn the land into sub divisions or strip malls, bigger deer = more money most people will pay.


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## TexasSlam18

Trouthunter said:


> A MLD is about managing your land and I won't go into what all you have to do to earn it,


X2


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## Jack's Pocket

Trouthunter said:


> I own 240 acres...I'm far from being a large land owner. A MLD is about managing your land and I won't go into what all you have to do to earn it, you can look that up.
> 
> But from your statement, you're done so no use going into it.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> TH


Your are pretty far away from being your average Joe.
You are exactly right it is about me managing my land not the government.
We are blistering our State Rep and if he doesn't return some property owner rights we are going to run someone against that will. What next what bull I have to run on my cattle. Where does it end.


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## Trouthunter

> What next what bull I have to run on my cattle.


Nah the bull belongs to you but the deer belong to the State of Texas so the State has a say in how where when how and what you can do with them.

TH


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## Sgrem

Trouthunter said:


> Nah the bull belongs to you but the deer belong to the State of Texas so the State has a say in how where when how and what you can do with them.
> 
> TH


I always thought the deer belonged to the *people* of the State of Texas....please do correct me if I am wrong. But maybe you are saying the same thing......


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## Jack's Pocket

Trouthunter said:


> Nah the bull belongs to you but the deer belong to the State of Texas so the State has a say in how where when how and what you can do with them.
> 
> TH


You are correct that is the very reason I told the director
of TPWD today to get them off my land.
I will put a D9 with a shear blade and cut every stick of timber to the ground and make cow pasture.
It won't be the first time time I rented one.


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## Jack's Pocket

sgrem said:


> I always thought the deer belonged to the *people* of the State of Texas....please do correct me if I am wrong. But maybe you are saying the same thing......


License sales have been flat or in decline for the last twenty years info by the Wildlife Director himself.
I ask have you thought that you are the problem and made this a sport to benefit the rich landowner and not the people. It has pretty well got to the point that only the affluent can hunt. Twenty years from now we won't need a TPWD.


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## T_rout

Jack's Pocket said:


> License sales have been flat or in decline for the last twenty years info by the Wildlife Director himself.
> 
> I ask have you thought that you are the problem and made this a sport to benefit the rich landowner and not the people. It has pretty well got to the point that only the affluent can hunt. Twenty years from now we won't need a TPWD.


Texas has a lot of private land and not much public land. Unfortunately that's the main reason hunting is so expensive.


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## Jack's Pocket

T_rout said:


> Texas has a lot of private land and not much public land. Unfortunately that's the main reason hunting is so expensive.


This I know. Thirty years ago South Texas ranchers were starving to death trying to run a cow to 100 acres.
Shazam they found out city folk would pay a fortune to shoot a deer . Thus the downfall of the sport IMO.
But what do I know I am just a crippled up old man that is a few years away from a wheel chair. 
I know I pay more taxes than the timber companies because I have a home and barn and all the other infrastructure.
I vote as do my neighbors. 
We as private landowners are beginning to feel like the enemy this is not good for the sport or the industry.


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## Trouthunter

Yea Sgrem...most things that belong to the State of Texas also belong to the people.

TH


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## Jack's Pocket

This is all a mute point for East Texas.
In 2002 I lived out in the woods the paper companies
have been selling off tracts like crazy. My closest neighbor was six miles as the crow flies. These woods are full
of quarter million dollar homes now. 
Maybe not in my lifetime but in the near future an average working person will not be able to afford hunt South or Central Texas and here it won't be allowed. The boomers are retiring and buying land like crazy.


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## wet dreams

Trouthunter said:


> Nah the bull belongs to you but the deer belong to the State of Texas so the State has a say in how where when how and what you can do with them.
> 
> TH


Unless you put up a high fence then they are YOURS...


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## wet dreams

Jack's Pocket said:


> License sales have been flat or in decline for the last twenty years info by the Wildlife Director himself.


The main reason for this is DIVORCE, the other is as you stated the price of a hunting lease today...7+$ per in E Tex is absolute ridiculous on most properties.....


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## Rubberback

Who enforces this law? Guy next to me never follows the law & the wardens leave him alone. Now, if I broke the law they would bury me under the jail.


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## Capt. Bobby Hill

*Question*

question, I understand the 13"+ rule and follow it, but come the day a deer walks out, can easily tell its a mature deer,antlers are almost exactly same width of ears, and I shoot the deer only to find that he's 12.75". Is there some kind of grace area where the GW won't mess with me or is it 13"+ or ticket? In east Texas were you may only see a few deer/year, and the fact that you may only have a few seconds to determine whether he's legal or not, @ 100 yards away it hard to determine whether he's 12.9" or 13".


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## Jack's Pocket

Bobby Hill said:


> question, I understand the 13"+ rule and follow it, but come the day a deer walks out, can easily tell its a mature deer,antlers are almost exactly same width of ears, and I shoot the deer only to find that he's 12.75". Is there some kind of grace area where the GW won't mess with me or is it 13"+ or ticket? In east Texas were you may only see a few deer/year, and the fact that you may only have a few seconds to determine whether he's legal or not, @ 100 yards away it hard to determine whether he's 12.9" or 13".


Not here the warden busted a 14 year old kid from our congregation last year for a 12.5.
Kids first buck. Doubt we made a new generation to carry on with that one. I ask if he was hunting this year he said no.


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## Jack's Pocket

wet dreams said:


> The main reason for this is DIVORCE, the other is as you stated the price of a hunting lease today...7+$ per in E Tex is absolute ridiculous on most properties.....


Seven would be a bargain the tract borders my place they want 8.50. The paper man ask me if I was interested because I own the road frontage on both sides and wont give an easement. They get yearly access gives me control if I don't like what the yahoos leasing are doing.
I ask why would I lease it, told him I have hunted that
tract my entire life. I haven't killed a decent deer off of it since four years after you clear cut it in 1980 .
Edit to clarify I had that tract leased until four years ago.


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## Jack's Pocket

Update after my State Rep got through in Austin today and a phone call from the director.
The Biologist is coming to my place next week.
There is no minimum acreage for MLD.
We will see what comes out.


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## Sgrem

Bobby Hill said:


> question, I understand the 13"+ rule and follow it, but come the day a deer walks out, can easily tell its a mature deer,antlers are almost exactly same width of ears, and I shoot the deer only to find that he's 12.75". Is there some kind of grace area where the GW won't mess with me or is it 13"+ or ticket? In east Texas were you may only see a few deer/year, and the fact that you may only have a few seconds to determine whether he's legal or not, @ 100 yards away it hard to determine whether he's 12.9" or 13".


13 inches is 13 inches.....their job is to enforce the law. measuring tapes have no imagination. If it is that close you make your choice knowing the consequences if your guess is off. I would choose not to shoot if its too close. I dont keep fish that are right at the line either......


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## dolch

I'm out of popcorn, anybody have a little extra?


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## bighrt4

http://www.tpwmagazine.com/archive/2004/dec/ed_3/

The Texas herd is too big and it affects the size of all deer. Shoot all the does and spikes you can legally.


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## txdukklr

why should the state (ie my tax dollar) spend any more then it does to improve your herd. The overall herd is in excellent condition and the quality of your horns are a reflection of numerous factors some of which you will not be able to affect and my have to consider moving.

There is a ranch 10 miles from the one I'm on in Victoria, started age and feed 15 years ago it'll consitently product 50+ bucks and on a great year they shot a 170. Biggest buck shot off the lease was a 140 and thats after 6 years of protein and strict age management.

I have a buddy of mine in Brady. He feeds protein and cotton seed and doesn't even consider shooting trophies until they're seven. He looses some to crossing the fence but his deer are consistently better then neighboring ranches which can't get a deer over pope and young.

With hard work and commitment I think you can produce a much higher quality buck, MLD is an excellent start


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## Mr. Saltwater

We had a long interesting conversation with the warden a few weeks ago at our lease. He told us that the antler restrictions were mostly in effect to improve the health of the deer herd, not to grow bigger racked bucks. The way he explained it, mature breeding bucks results in fawns being born earlier with a greater chance of survival than those born later. He did admit that with AR there will be some bucks that will never be legal shooters, and if you want to manage for bigger racks (and are willing to do the required work) you need to be under MLD.


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## txdukklr

Mr. Saltwater said:


> We had a long interesting conversation with the warden a few weeks ago at our lease. He told us that the antler restrictions were mostly in effect to improve the health of the deer herd, not to grow bigger racked bucks. The way he explained it, mature breeding bucks results in fawns being born earlier with a greater chance of survival than those born later. He did admit that with AR there will be some bucks that will never be legal shooters, and *if you want to manage for bigger racks (and are willing to do the required work) you need to be under MLD.*


Thats the key you want bigger deer, age, nutrition, culling and most important is patience


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## bollomb

this one was nice to see and def would've ben a shooter just ddnt wanna fight the gw on it and end up 250 bucks poorer...


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## wet dreams

250$????? try starting at 1500


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## redfish bayrat

*imporving herd*



bollomb said:


> View attachment 1819330
> 
> this one was nice to see and def would've ben a shooter just ddnt wanna fight the gw on it and end up 250 bucks poorer...


If they really want to improve the herd, then bucks like this need to be legal. If bucks with the genes for wide spreads are harvested and this buck breeds 5-6 does, guess what you'll have in 5 years.


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## Trouthunter

> If they really want to improve the herd, then bucks like this need to be legal. If bucks with the genes for wide spreads are harvested and this buck breeds 5-6 does, guess what you'll have in 5 years.


You miss the below?



> He told us that the antler restrictions were mostly in effect to improve the health of the deer herd, not to grow bigger racked bucks.


It's such an old argument and it's been going on since the AR rules went into effect.

Fact is that it's working for most counties and will continue to do so.

Go MLD, get your neighbors to do the same, form a Co-Op work together and see where it will get you in just a few years. Those 2.5 year old bucks will be 5.5 then.

It's what we did and we have some really nice deer for Jackson County.

TH


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## redfish bayrat

Trouthunter said:


> You miss the below?
> 
> It's such an old argument and it's been going on since the AR rules went into effect.
> 
> Fact is that it's working for most counties and will continue to do so.
> 
> Go MLD, get your neighbors to do the same, form a Co-Op work together and see where it will get you in just a few years. Those 2.5 year old bucks will be 5.5 then.
> 
> It's what we did and we have some really nice deer for Jackson County.
> 
> TH


The ranch I'm on is a member of the Harvey Creek Wildlife Co-Op. Haven't seen an MLD permit since I started hunting the place in '88. If they want to improve the herd, then open up the general season for doe harvest without Lamps permits. Reduce the population to the carrying capacity of the land. This will also leave more quality food for bucks and hopefully not grow just basket racks because of a narrowed gene pool.


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