# When/when not to use color preserver on thread?



## jimj100

I am just starting off in building. I bought some guide sets to just rewrap some old rods for practice, and I was shocked at how dark the thread became after applying flexcoat. The dark blank really comes thru. Using both untreated or NCP thread. Doing a little research here, it's clear now that this is normal and expected. So, let me summarize my interpretation from reading here and from a few other sources. PLEASE feel free to elaborate and correct. I aim to build surf rods and shark rods (heavier duty tackle).

For wrapping guides, using nylon with no CP followed by flexcoat makes the strongest bond, and dark colors are best. For wrapping guides, I should keep in mind that the blank or guide foot will show thru the wrapped thread when choosing colors.

For anything decorative, CP, or CP on top of NCP thread, is a must. Multiple coats of CP is probably best, and flexcoat brand is best. 
Probably all of the amazing wraps people have posted on rods here were created using CP on the thread work before flexcoating. 

I'm not sure about what to use on underwrap (NCP vs Nylon, CP or not?). I have seen some really nice wraps where it seems obvious that CP must have been used on guide wraps. 

Please tell me what I've got right and what's wrong! Thanks, Jim


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## Goags

My .02
Some swear by CP, others swear at it. Use it for sure on crosswraps and weaves, even if using NCP thread, to tack the threads in place and push out the air. I like to use several light coats, rather than a flood coat, which can make some thread swell and loosen. Which brand of CP is best is debateable...I prefer Threadmaster. If you're ok w/ a transluscent/transparent guide wrap, then use reg nylon thread and no CP, but realize that the epoxy finish doesn't have any real adhesive properties, so to say it's "stronger" is questionable...it does penetrate the thread better w/o CP. Never had a double foot guide come loose using CP, tho I've had a single foot micro pull out, but that was a few yrs ago, before the foot was redesigned. I use mostly reg nylon(w/ CP), but use NCP nylon in the lighter colors. Underwraps...if you want the sparkle, use reg nylon w/ CP...as you've probably noticed NCP thread looks flat like paint.


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## pg542

Goags said:


> My .02
> Some swear by CP, others swear at it. Use it for sure on crosswraps and weaves, even if using NCP thread, to tack the threads in place and push out the air. I like to use several light coats, rather than a flood coat, which can make some thread swell and loosen. Which brand of CP is best is debateable...I prefer Threadmaster. If you're ok w/ a transluscent/transparent guide wrap, then use reg nylon thread and no CP, but realize that the epoxy finish doesn't have any real adhesive properties, so to say it's "stronger" is questionable...it does penetrate the thread better w/o CP. Never had a double foot guide come loose using CP, tho I've had a single foot micro pull out, but that was a few yrs ago, before the foot was redesigned. I use mostly reg nylon(w/ CP), but use NCP nylon in the lighter colors. Underwraps...if you want the sparkle, use reg nylon w/ CP...as you've probably noticed NCP thread looks flat like paint.


.....X2......I cp everything, including NCP/colorfast threads. I've been stung too many times(twice). Nothing is more frustrating than finding out your NCP thread has some places in it that aren't NCP. It's only happened twice but one time was on an intricate crosswrap ruining the whole thing. Another time I caught it early on the first couple of guidewraps before finishing the crosswrap. Catastrophe averted. I have never noticed any weakness in my wraps using cp, however I do use a Forhan lock on all my single foot guides, no matter how light duty they are.


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## jimj100

Thanks guys for the input. Looking at more and more rods, it looks like CP is used every time on all the threadwork. Even on guides, w/o CP, using a dark thread, i could see the chrome foot of the guide thru the thread after high build coating. not a good look! 

I think i happened to just run into one of the few "anti CP" builders out there. 

I started an actual build this weekend, did my underwraps in orange A nylon over a yellow blank, coated 2x w/ CP, and then did a light high build coat, and they look great. Will mount the guides early this week in D nylon, w/ CP again. 

Thanks again! Jim


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## PBD539

Always, except the top wrap of a tiger wrap!


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## Goags

There's alot of guys doing beautiful work that never use CP. Some of them stick to using dark thread colors or metallics and/or use black/gunsmoke guides rather than chrome. I don't find seeing the guide feet thru the thread/finish objectionable, I just don't do it. All the old Allstar classics were wrapped with scarlet reg nylon w/ no CP, and you can see the guide feet, as well as the hidden ends of the metallic trim...it's just whatever look your going for.


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## Silverfox1

*Red Thread*



Goags said:


> There's alot of guys doing beautiful work that never use CP. Some of them stick to using dark thread colors or metallics and/or use black/gunsmoke guides rather than chrome. I don't find seeing the guide feet thru the thread/finish objectionable, I just don't do it. All the old Allstar classics were wrapped with scarlet reg nylon w/ no CP, and you can see the guide feet, as well as the hidden ends of the metallic trim...it's just whatever look your going for.


Back in the start of AllStar thats how we got the maroon color.


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## jaycook

I hate CP, and nearly refuse to use it. But, I do not suggest that anybody follow my lead. The only time I would say that you should consider not using it, would be on plain black wraps. CP on black isn't always a good idea.

The above guys know what they are talking about. I have not built a fraction of what they have, and probably never will.


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## Billy 40

95% of the rods I build use no CP on guide wraps. I use underwraps though. TEH guide wraps look SO MUCH better in Nylon with no CP imo. On lighter FW rods you're kind of in a bind because you either have to use CP or NCP thread if no underwrap is used. HEre's a link to a bunch of guide wraps I've done: http://northeastrodbuilders.com/billyguides.html

On Dec wraps you need CP unless you use NCP or all metallics. Even then people still use CP as previously stated.

Negative to CP - on guide wraps the thread still darkens if the threads are not packed tight, or if you wrap over a thick guide and the tunnl is large. FOr me the epoxy doesnt' stick to the thread and in a very short period of time teh epoxy peels off teh wraps. Another issue is improper application of CP, too much or too sloppy and when it's humid the wraps can turn milky white. It's a bit of a Painin the *** using CP, so expect to screw up until you've put in a bit of practice and figured out a method that works for you.


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## Cylinder

I use color preserver on everything. The only exception would be on a decorative wrap where you want a translucent result...like a Scottish kilt type of design. (You could use NCP in this scenario but would not use NCP for the wraps you want to show through). I under-wrap everything and apply 1 coat of color preserver on the under-wraps before over-wrapping. 

One other observation from your original statement. Sometimes it is a problem using a larger size thread over a smaller thread. The threads tend to ride in the groves of the smaller threads. I like to match under-wrap / over-wrap to address this. And I see nothing wrong with using "A" all the way on bigger equipment. But I double wrap all guides on surf rods and shark/offshore rods.

Last comment on no color preserver. Most grind the feet of the guides to make the transition smoother. This really shows up without CP and I have never liked the look...but that's just me. Good Luck! Roger


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## Billy 40

Cylinder said:


> Sometimes it is a problem using a larger size thread over a smaller thread. The threads tend to ride in the groves of the smaller threads.


This is backwards, the thicker thread over thinner is OK (D over A). The other way (A over D) is a problem with the thread slipping into the grooves, if you do it this way for some odd reason, put epoxy on teh underwrap. I epoxy the underwrap regardless, it's so much easier to wrap over an epoxied wrap than bare, also easier to finish underneath the guide feet without getting a web


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## jimj100

billy, roger, (builders who do not CP for the most part),
How do you manage your colors? Billy, the wraps you linked to were beautiful. Trying what i did, with silver and teal over a black blank followed by high build, NO WAY i could achieve such nice colors. 

Either you must be
1) using a different/better technique/epoxy to coat the wraps that does not cause as much darkening and transparency to the blank as i observed
2) you must be putting in a lot of effort to get the color of your blank, underwrap, overwrap, etc. all compatible with translucency casued by the epoxy. You must have a list of colors, brands, styles of blanks and guides and thread that all work together. (for example, to achieve a gray color, use white thread over a black blank, etc.)


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## Billy 40

The rods I use have underwraps, so I can get almost any shade I want using Nylon over different colored metallics. If you are not using underwraps, you have other options. CP, NCP, painting the blank where the guide goes (I tried, I cannot do it it's a nightmare!).


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## teamfirstcast

I have nothing to add except that this has been one of the most educational and helpful posts in quite a while for us that are still learning proper techniques. You pros out there are offering great insight, and as always we see again there are many different ways to achieve the look you want... practice and use what works for you. Thanks guys!


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## jimj100

Billy, thank you. Great examples. The metallic underwrap in the first few wraps does a great job of creating an effect w/ the overwrap. The color changes, but does not fade or turn the color of the blank completely. In the bottom photo, looks like no underwrap, and the color really fades as the dark blank comes thru (which can look great if that's the effect you are going for). 

In all cases, the underwap was already epoxied, right? (looks like it). 

When i do my shark rod, I will go with NO CP and metallic underwrap. I'll probably stick to a color combo similar to one of these you've shown. 

What metallic thread is that, exactly?


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## jimj100

Teamfirstcast, I agree 100%. I believe I will be able to wrap a pretty decent rod my first try, no lesson or instruction, just based on what i've learned here. It is going pretty well so far. 

One thing i've just learned: Take pics of your wraps before and after epoxy, to keep track of what underwrap+overwrap+epoxy effect you get.


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## Billy 40

I have several broken blanks that I do testing on. I've probably done a few hundred different color combos over the years - I put A LOT of time into getting things the way I want and it shows when the rod is complete. THere's no magic answer, you have a blank that you are goign to build, teh handle will be covered by grips - this is where you can do your testing (unless you are paranoid abotu adding weight). Lets say you want to do a "REd" rod. I would get several spools of red (Nylon and NCP). I'd do a silver wrap about 2-4" long, another with gold, another with red metallic, and maybe one more with copper metallic. I'd wrap each of the nylon threads over each of the underwraps, so if there are 3 REds, I'll end up with 12 different shades of red using just 3 Nylon spools. And I'd wrap the 3 NCP spools next to it, and epoxy it all. ADVANCED info - if you have 3 spools and transistion from one color to the next, you end up with 5 shades. Shade the underwrap from silver to gold to red, and you'll end up with a super subtle candy apple shade.

Metallic - I use YLI/Fishhawk, Superior, Sulky, Rice. Doesn't matter. Understand that I never worry abotu wasting money on stuff like this, so for me to give you this advice knowing you're goign to have to spend hundreds of dollars in thread doesn't make me feel bad at all!! lol. WHen you get this down...you can move onto MAdeira and buy a fe wmore hundred spools of thread, lmao.

One more pic of a rod I did a few years ago which was shaded from wrap to tip. One o fthe nicest rods I've done.


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## Cylinder

"This is backwards, the thicker thread over thinner is OK (D over A). The other way (A over D) is a problem with the thread slipping into the grooves,"

Wasn't specific enough. D over C can be a problem. D over A works well. 

I always use a light under-wrap, ie. white, yellow, silver, Lt. Blue, Lt. Green, etc. On a white blank I would put a dark trim band to separate the end of the under-wrap from the blank.

The real bottom line is this....there is NO wrong way! You can use any color combination, make your grips long or short, make your butt wrap 2" long or all the way past the first guide. If you like it that is all that matters. For me, the things that separate an ok job from a really nice job are things like how the epoxy finish looks at the end of the wrap where it touches the blank. Are the length of wraps on the guides the same? Is the space between a center band and the guide wrap the same distance? This, for me, says the builder understands the symmetry and is operating at the next level. Good luck with all your projects. Roger


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