# One-hole groups in hunting rifles---How do you roll?



## Geedubya

Just for giggles and grins, I thought I might get your opinion about accuracy, one hole groups and such in hunting rifles.
I tend to operate within a narrow band of mediocrity. Don't do anything super good, don't do anything real bad. As I had mentioned in another thread, one hole groups for me are an anomaly. Perhaps that's because the older I get, the better I wuz.
Most all the rifles I shoot are straight factory grade rifles that I tweak a little, develop loads for, zero at 100 or 200 yds. and hunt. 
Being as I'm a meat hunter first and foremost, I shy away from scopes with target dots when hunting. 
I've found that a duplex reticule tends to work better for my tired old eyes in early morning light and late evening light. Typically use 2.5 x 8, 3 x 9, up to 4.5 x 14 variables. In fact, the Leuopld Vari X III or VX3 in the 2.5 x 8 x 32 is probably my favorite scope. However the Ziess Diavari in 3 x 9 or even the Conquests, ain't too shabby. 
Here are more what my groups look like at 100 to 200 yds. Like I said earlier, for me, one hole groups are an anomaly. How 'bout you guys, how do you roll?

PSC, off Bench, 100 yds.









Cooper Model 21, Tac 20









221 Fireball, Remington 700 LVSF









Sako AII, 220 Swift









Sako 75 Varmint, 260 Remington









6.5 x 284, Cooper Model 22









Cooper Model 22, 7mm-08









Sako l61r Varmint, 7mm Rem Mag









308 Winchester, Cooper model 22









Sako 75 Hunter, 9.3 x 62









Browning Hi-Wall, 454 Casul


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## prarie dog

Geedubya, looks like you got em tuned up real nice. Don't know if you know this or not but, a 260 round will fire in a 6.5 284. Murphy hangs out at the rifle range too.


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## Geedubya

priarie dog,

O'Leary sez " Murphy was an optimist". 

GWB


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## Too Tall

Nice groups. I have mine dialed in under a nickle but its more important to me to know where that 1st shot out of the cold barrel is going in my hunting rifles.


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## Geedubya

Too Tall said:


> Nice groups. I have mine dialed in under a nickle but its more important to me to know where that 1st shot out of the cold barrel is going in my hunting rifles.


Totally agree. But, do you have a standard for accuracy. By that, I mean, if you buy a rifle that makes you drool,










and it won't shoot a group under 1.25" at 100 yds.( this one will) , do you blow it out? Or do you keep it, pet it and work with it.

GWB


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## Too Tall

It may be cheating to some but my two main hunting rifles are Browning. Both have the B.O.S.S. setup on them. I can generally dial in any load easily enough by adjusting the B.O.S.S. There has been one or two I couldn't do anything with so they got tossed out.
1.25" at 300 yds is still in the vitals if the 1st shot was. I would probably only toss it if I found on that shot <1".


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## Bottomsup

I would say your groups and your shooting skill are well above average. Fun to do but but a deer wont care.


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## RB II

Great shooting. My standard for hunting rifles is anything close to 1" groups at 100 yds from a target setup on a bench is my standard. I consider myself a pretty good rifle shot and in all but the most perfect hunting setup/rest the rifle will outshoot me if it can hold that pattern. I agree, the cold bore shot is the meat bullet, I need to know where it is going. I hunt with a Weatherby 7 mag that will cut the holes in a three shot pattern, good enough for me. I am moving more toward the mil dot scopes (Leupold is my brand) with the dope sheet taped to the stock as I hunt in West Texas/Sanderson and the flexibility to shoot accurately to 500+ yds helps a lot. I have a range set up out to 900 yds and the rifle will hold the MOA pattern to 700 yds if I do my part.


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## Bottomsup

Geedubya, I didnt like dot scopes for hunting either until I tried a Muller. It has a 1/8" black dot at 100 yards and lights up red when you turn it on. Makes for a great target, low light and night time varmit scope.


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## prarie dog

*Murphy*

Geedubya. You're big on pics so here you go. The case on the left is a 260 AI that is a Lapua 243 case necked up then fireformed in the AI chamber. The case on the right is a 6.5 284. The center case is a case that looked like the one on the left before it was accidentally fired in the 284 chamber. You sound like an above average shooter and post pics of good groups. So in the interest of being factual on here, are you sure you didn't shoot your groups at 50 yds, they look too good to be shot with factory rifles and Nosler bullets.


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## Too Tall

Well you changed the post a bit after I responded. :wink: 1.25" at 100yds is still a shootable round. I would work with it a bit, non BOSS guns, and see if I could get it better.


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## Charles Helm

Sometimes field accuracy is good enough.

.458 WM, open sights, 25 yard on a dark indoor range. Just trying out a bullet.










Bongi shoots the .375:










Had to make some scope adjustments bu the last rounds all went into the black. Didn't pace off the distance. Getting ready to chase down a wayward bull.



















Somewhere around here I have a target from the other .375, can't seem to lay my hands on it though.


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## Too Tall

prarie dog said:


> So in the interest of being factual on here, are you sure you didn't shoot your groups at 50 yds, they look too good to be shot with factory rifles and Nosler bullets.


Huh. You're saying a factory rifle isn't capable of shooting those groups? I've had good accuracy with Nosler ballistic tips. They just suck for hunting so I quit loading them.


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## Wolf6151

Geedubya said:


> Totally agree. But, do you have a standard for accuracy. By that, I mean, if you buy a rifle that makes you drool,
> and it won't shoot a group under 1.25" at 100 yds.( this one will) , do you blow it out? Or do you keep it, pet it and work with it.
> 
> GWB


I do have a standard for which I try to achieve, consistently less than an inch at 100 yds. I went to the PSC range again today and shot the 7mm-08 and the exact same rifle (Remington 700 SPS stainless) but in .243 as well. The 7mm-08 is frustrating me and just when I think we're making progress with it, I get a day like today. My 7mm-08 was spraying rounds, shooting a shotgun pattern, at 100 yds. The same rifle in .243 after boresighting and getting it on paper at 100 yds. took only 3 shots to hit where I'm aiming consistently and was stacking bullets in the same hole, shooting groups less than a 1/4 inch with the first load we tried. I realize that doesn't always happen but it sure is nice when it does. The 7mm-08 on the other hand is trying my patience but I'll continue to work with it trying different bullets, and load amounts, and soon will be trying a different powder. I'll keep the rifle but continue to work with it, pet it, and occasionally curse at it like I did today. I'm even considering putting the pressure point back in the stock.


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## BretE

Too Tall said:


> Huh. You're saying a factory rifle isn't capable of shooting those groups? I've had good accuracy with Nosler ballistic tips. They just suck for hunting so I quit loading them.


What bullet are you shooting now. I think I'm gonna get away from ballistic tips too....


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## Geedubya

prarie dog said:


> Geedubya. You're big on pics so here you go. The case on the left is a 260 AI that is a Lapua 243 case necked up then fireformed in the AI chamber. The case on the right is a 6.5 284. The center case is a case that looked like the one on the left before it was accidentally fired in the 284 chamber. You sound like an above average shooter and post pics of good groups. So in the interest of being factual on here, are you sure you didn't shoot your groups at 50 yds, they look too good to be shot with factory rifles and Nosler bullets.


PD,
not being acquainted with you or seeing any smiley's, I'm not sure whether you are serious about whether the groups I posted were real or fake. I keep targets and records of every round I fire. I've many a group that do not measure up to those posted. However, I thought it might be fun to grab some of my better groups and post the question in hand, to see what kind of response was forthcoming. Over the years I've reloaded for about 57+ different chamberings (I lose count in my old age) from .17 through .45 cal. So, let me simply say it's one thing to fool others, but it's a shame to fool yourself. I have no way to prove whether the groups are real or not. The only way to know would be for you and I to meet one morning at the PSC range, I can bring one or a half dozen rifles employed and we can see what develops. I would simply ask that if that occurs, you would post here what were the results. PM me if you would like my phone number. I've been recovering from surgery, but should be available just about any morning or afternoon after my Dr. releases me on Thursday next.

Best

GWB


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## Geedubya

Bottomsup said:


> Geedubya, I didnt like dot scopes for hunting either until I tried a Muller. It has a 1/8" black dot at 100 yards and lights up red when you turn it on. Makes for a great target, low light and night time varmit scope.


Ah,

an illuminated dot. Well, that's a horse of a different circumstance. Most of the benchrest scopes with target dots that I've been acquainted with in the past were not illuminated. I still have a Tasco World Class Plus II 10 x 40 and Leupold 6 .5 x 20 with target dots. They are not illuminated and I do not use them for deer or hog hunting. Good on targets during the day though.

GWB


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## Too Tall

Brete said:


> What bullet are you shooting now. I think I'm gonna get away from ballistic tips too....


Sierra but I have been trying out the Barnes TSX.


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## prarie dog

Too Tall said:


> Huh. You're saying a factory rifle isn't capable of shooting those groups? I've had good accuracy with Nosler ballistic tips. They just suck for hunting so I quit loading them.


The point of the post is that Geedubya has the habit of questioning peoples statements. He questioned mine when I cautioned him about firing a 260 round in his 6.5 284, he did the same thing the other day to bottomsup. All statements made on here could be questioned, this is an open public forum, it ain't court. (lying goes on there too) I don't believe half of what I read on any public forum, but I don't call people liars. It isn't polite and it's out of place. I accepted his comments and pics as truth why can't he do the same for me. Too Tall you could be next. I used to hunt Elk with the Nosler partition bullets, they also made some very accurate 22 bullets many moons ago called Zipeedos. The Zipeedos were made on screw machines. The bullets today shot by competitive shooters are usually Sierra, Berger, some of the Hornady and custom bullets by many different folks. Nosler may make some accurate bullets but I don't know about them and don't see them on equipment lists at National level competitions.


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## Geedubya

PD,

I believe you have me all wrong. I'll go back and look. To date I think the only thing I've questioned was the 670 yd shot free hand out of the back of the pickup. 

Best

GWB


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## Geedubya

I'll add this as a coda, rather than edit my previous post. I do not have much of a track record here. I generally do not post on stuff such as which is the best bullet for this or that, or what is the most accurate rifle etc. That is all a matter of opinion. I enjoy taking pix and using them to backup or detail what ever objective that I post. I had hoped to come here and enjoy the company of other hunters and shooters. My objective was not to offend. I typically try to live by the rule that friends come and go, but enemies accumulate. Offending folks was not my objective. 

Best

GWB


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## BretE

Too Tall said:


> Sierra but I have been trying out the Barnes TSX.


Thanks, a guy at the ranch last year was swearing by what I believe were Accushock. Not sure, I'll have to go check, I wrote it down on a box of bullets I had with me.....you know anything about these?


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## prarie dog

Geedubya said:


> priarie dog,
> 
> O'Leary sez " Murphy was an optimist".
> 
> GWB


Please explain your post.


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## Charles Helm

"Murphy was an optimist" means things are even more likely to go wrong.


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## prarie dog

Thanks Charles for explaing that. I thought he was questioning my word, so now I'm the jerk.
My apoligies, Geedubya, I misunderstood what you meant.


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## Geedubya

prarie dog said:


> Please explain your post.


Sir, 
IIRC.

There is the saying, I believe it is called "Murphy's Law". It goes something like this. "Anything that can go wrong, will."

O'Leary's law" -- Murphy was an optomist. In other words, It will actully be worse than Murphy sez.
I was simply amplifying your word of caution.

I reload for many similar chamberings. 17 mach IV, 17 fireball, 20 vartarg and 221 fireball are all off the same case. 
243 win. 260 rem., 7mm-08, 308, 338 Federal, 358 Win. (I reload for all) off the same case.

25-06, 270, 280, 30-06, 338-06, 35 whelen, same (don't load the 280)

anyway, I am very, very, very careful about loading the correct round in the correct rifle. To date in 20 years I've only done it once and thank heaven the round did not fire due to a headspace problem.

Best

GWB


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## Geedubya

prarie dog said:


> Thanks Charles for explaing that. I thought he was questioning my word, so now I'm the jerk.
> My apoligies, Geedubya, I misunderstood what you meant.


No problem sir.

As far as I'm concerned, no harm no foul.

Best

GWB


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## prarie dog

Lapua makes good brass don't they.


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## Geedubya

prarie dog said:


> Lapua makes good brass don't they.


Yes they do.

I use it in several different iterations. I don't particularly hot rod. I've some 308 Win. that I've loaded at least 8 times.

GWB


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## prarie dog

How does your Fireball shoot and what projectile do you use? We shoot a lot of dogs with one and prefer Kindlers 30gn Gold bullet. SWMBO rolled one at 584 the other day, I trotted over to range it and he had crawled in the hole. We have one confirmed over 500, it was 523 I believe.


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## Geedubya

You mention Todd Kindler.

I shoot his "Gold" 17 cal bullets among others in 23 and 30 grainers.

Believe it or not I have every issue of Small Caliber News. He got me started collecting Coopers.

I've had both the 700 Classic and the LVSF in the Fireball. I like the LVSF the better of the two. I shoot both 40 grainers and 50 grainers out of it.

Took me a minute to access my files, but here are several groups that are typical.














































At present I'm using 18 gr. of Rl-7 over both 40 gr. and 50 gr. Nosler Ballistic tips 1.855oal on the 40's and 1.870 oal on the 50's.

Years ago we had a place in east Texas, I'd snipe crows, squirrels, turtles, grackles, starlings, pearl-do's, rabbits and just about everything else that moved. 
Now it's to my hill country lease that I use the fireball. 
I use a foxpro fx-3 and call in coyote and fox. Most of that is done betwen 30 and 50 yds.










Just me, but I usually don't shoot the fireball much over 100 yds. The few times I have to reach out and know that I'm going to do so, I'll use a 22-250 or my 20 Tactical. The Tac 20 and 40 grainers over about 24.5 gr. of Rl-10x is like a lazer beam.

GWB


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## prarie dog

Again, nice shooting. My Fireball is the 17, had the 221 several years ago. My family and I shoot Prairie Dogs several times a summer. When we first started we shot a lot of dogs at close ranges for the show, using a 204 and others. In the last year the wife and I have started stretching everything and leaving the close dogs for the kids. We're out to 650 with the 204 and over 500 with the 17 Fireball. The thing that makes it fun is a light wind results in a large holdoff, we use mildot scopes and one person shoots while the other spots, two shooters off the same bench. Lotsa fun, and really improves a shooters ability to stick one in there at long range. I set up a gong at 500 to check zero.


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## THE JAMMER

I shot a true one hole group once. It was out of my pre 64 30-06 shooting a 165 gr XXX. It was shot at 500 yards with a 20 mph 90 degree crosswind.

I shot one shot and it made one hole.


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## Bottomsup

Geedubya, I am a big time fan of Leupold but that Muller with the 1/8" dot that illuminates really got my attention. You should give one a try I love mine. Its on my .17 HMR and its so cool to watch everything happen through the scope on 25x. Even when the dot turns red its still 1/8" and you can adjust the brightness. My 6.5-20 Leupold may be coming off my 7mm mag and getting a Muller. As for the 650 yard shots I did not know it was 650 yards until after the shots were fired and I range a rock where I last saw the deer. Is it still freehand when one elbow was on the cab of the truck? I have shot that gun so much I just have a gut feeling where to hold and it works for me. I learned by fireing for effect and watching for the dust cloud. LOL


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## Geedubya

Bottom's up. 
I'll start this by way of apology. As I am wont to tell folks, I'm not a big man but big enough to admit when I'm wrong. So, If you took my posts over the last week to be questioning your word or, character, My bad. 
I don't shoot long range. I describe myself as a short range meat hunter. My experience shooting a number of rifles out to just 300 yds. makes me realize how much more difficult a 600 yd plus shot is. 
Some times my attempts at humor get me in trouble. 
If you say you've done it, that's fine by me. 

I spend most of my time glassing. I used to by cheap optics when I first started years ago. No more. I happened to pick up a pair of Leica 10x42 BA's used, cheap a few years back. Man I love those bino's. I like sitting on the side of a hill or in a tripod I employ a sling and shooting stix whenever possible. I also like being able to get back on game as soon as possible after the shot to either see where the animal took off to, or whether a follow up shot is necessary. Consequently I find that a lower magnification scope cuts down on the feeling or perception of the reticule wandering, and definitely makes it easier to get back on target. I do have a 3.5 x 10 Leupold with illuminated reticle, that is handy late. I usually only shoot hogs at "dead dark" as where I hunt it's so thick that tracking at nite is many times a losing proposition. 
On a different tack. I'm thinking about a suppressed 300 Whisper with night optics for hogs. From what I've seen that would be a blast. I tried the ND3 laser, didn't like it at all.

GWB


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## Bottomsup

Geedubya, No harm done. We are all here for fun anyway. I am used to it because some of my stories do sound far fetched but I promise you they are all true. Thats what makes them fun to tell. Like the one where the ATF siezed my rocket building materials. The Sheriff has been to my house as a kid on more than one occasion. I wasnt a bad kid I just liked to play outside of the box.


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## CoastalOutfitters

a one hole group is jus that............one hole

the rest are tight groups


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## CHARLIE

Back in the dark ages when I shot competetive pistol shooting I was at Camp Perry Ohio shooting 50 yard slow fire with my 45 auto. (10 rounds in 10 minutes). When scoreing the target only 9 hits could be found. I knew it was there somewhere so after much research and checking with the scorer in charge the other hit was found almost in the same hole as another hit. See I shot a one hole target once..


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