# Kickapoo, did you?



## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

Looking :ac550: for information about the water quality in the creek upstream from Triple creek, if you do not want to post, send me an PM.
I have a theory about the great crappie bite this year, and it's because I chase stripers so much.
I read a couple of months or maybe more, that a seasoned 2cooler posted in formation that the river seems to push the good water(clarity speaking) into the area where Kickapoo Creek meets the lake.
Lee and I went many times drifting for stripers(they seem to be easier to catch in clear water) and catfish this year up there in what is new territory to me, and I am beginning to know more about this area. 
And it is true that there seems to be a slug of clearer water that becomes trapped this area, Triple Creek to past the point North from what used to be Dove Island.
After that as you go out in the main lake it is much muddier after a hard rain than the spot I am talking about. And sometimes it gets muddier up from Triple Creek as you go upstream. The best water stays in this slot in bad conditions, a lot 2coolers validated that on the post.
When the rainfall was horrific for at least a month(come on and help me Sunbeam) and the lake was a land fill, that was the best water to be found. And all of the crappie that usually live the lake got pushed with the best water to this area because they are mostly sight feeders. And in the boat docks around protected harbors on the lower rim of the lake which seems to hold a sliver of good water during hard rains as well.
Hey, they are not knocking them out on White Rock like they are here this year. WHC usually gets a strong run of crappie, as good or better than Kickapoo.
This year WHC is "Too muddy to plow" LOL! Sunbeam! Because of timber operations in that area.
So the muddy water in the main lake pushed the crappie that normally live in the main lake in the the slot with the best water quality, maybe.
JMHO
So does anyone know what the water looks like at Triple Creek?
SS


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/wcp/
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/crappie/
A couple of things I have read make believe the fish we are catching are hybirds or black crappie, with a few white crappie mixed in.
I am going to count dorsal rays tomorrow and see.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Here's my two cents worth.

One, the Kickapoo and Rocky creeks had lots of springs and most shallow wells were artesian. There was an artesian well near Dove island in 10 feet of water that flowed for years after the lake filled. When we built Triple Creek we drilled 3 wells that flowed about 500 gallons an hour with out pumps. Unfortunately the water had so much methane that it was poor quality for house hold use.
Joe Nelson owned all the land on both sides of Rocky creek from the cable sign below the water fall for at least a mile up stream. There were dozens of springs that flowed in to Rocky year around in that mile alone. 
I mention this just to say that there is constant supply of clean water coming into Kickapoo above the bridge regardless of the other influx from rain run off.
Also if you look at the Google map you will see a large bay on the right side of the channel going up stream just before Triple Creek. This was Doc Wright's cotton field.
This bay is isolated from the main channel by a mile long willow covered bar.
Water flowing down the channel by passes the bay on the west side. Water flowing into the bay only runs off from the Branchwood subdivision and the wooded areas. It will be much clearer than the heavy flow coming down the channel.
When the lake first started to rise it was from water that fell north of us. The muddy water came down the river and followed the submerged channel like a pipe line.
The water in the Kickapoo estuary was not effected by this flow. As the lake filled to eventually two foot over full water was pushed up Kickapoo and Rocky. Most of the large bay area from Idlewild across to Indian Hills remained remained clear. It was not until it rained very heavy in the four county area around the lake that the flow in Kickapoo and rocky reversed and flowed into the lake. This flow was greater that the incoming run off due to the gates being opened to 70,000 cfs for a while.
When the flow was reduced to about 30,000 cfs the only flow in Kickapoo was from the draining of the standing water in the creeks and the isolated bays. For the last six weeks the water in Kickapoo and Rocky has been stable as far as run off is concerned. The springs have been adding water and the discolored water is being pulled out from the lower end to make up the lost through the dam.
Consequently the water quality in much better that the main lake. The spring water may even be warmer now that the lake water.
So my humble opinion is the water in kickapoo is always clearer and warmer than the lower lake due to the storage bays and the numerous springs.
What do you think?


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

All of the crappie in Livingston are natural. None have ever been stocked by TP&W. This is a population based on pre-lake river and pond fish. You will only tell by a physical examination of the individual fish.
What is so heartening to me is the number of under size fish in the run. Based on the growth rate of crappie in a food rich environment those small fish were spawned in the spring of 2008.
If we get a good 2010 spawn and have these little fish to come back in 2011 to spawn we might have a decent crappie fishery for three or four years. That is if those darn stripers do not come along and eat them all. LOL<G>
Catch, count and record. Love to see your research.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

That was great information Sunbeam, we are taking a trip out in the morning and Lee and usually get together and discuss what we will be doing the next day and just how things have been going. Last night we both noted that we are catching what looks like about 3 age classes of crappie, all well represented, we should have some fun with them for a while, and a good spawn this year will only enhance it.
I really enjoyed the information about the water quality you gave us regarding the Kickapoo/Rocky basin, awesome. And certainly supports what others have observed about hat stretch of water staying cleaner during heavy runoff, thanks for your 2 cents worth.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Sunbeam is the encyclopedia of Lake Livingston.


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## wwind3 (Sep 30, 2009)

Great news about kickapoo as my wife and I purchased a home in Twin Harbors on the water. I hadnt fished the lake in over 20 yrs since I quit bass fishing. I got a pontoon boat and got into the whites and stripers around Pine Island last summer and it was a blast.

Made my first trip to Kickapoo few days ago out of Broken Arrow.---Caught a few. All nice size.

tried to go by boat back to my house while my son drove over. Lost the creek where it empties into the bay and tried to run the west bank. Big mistake---ran aground. Need to do a little better recon next time---looks like the east bank is the way to go but I didnt see any channel markers. Once I get the hang of it its gonna be awesome.

Hadnt fished the creek since the early 70's out of Big John's--caught a lot of bass back then. Sure has changed since then--I miss the trees..


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## bueyescowboy (Apr 10, 2005)

ww3 ...or is that whirlwind 3...anyway, yea run the east bank. mainly stay close to the waterline. after the first bend where you leave the channel there is a boat house and you head straight away from the boat house. Thats about the only tricky part of that east bank. I run from kickapoo to penwaugh all the time. I have been running that east bank for about 20 years now. be careful once you hit the open lake there are still several areas out there that has a bunch of stumps. I was running that way when dove island was an island.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

Kickapoo beat us out today, after a lot of productive trips we meet our Waterloo today, did not boat a keeper in the muddy water. The very few I saw caught were up against the bank.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

shadslinger said:


> Kickapoo beat us out today, after a lot of productive trips we meet our Waterloo today, did not boat a keeper in the muddy water. The very few I saw caught were up against the bank.


Kickapoo and Rocky have received 1.10 to 1.38 inches of rain in the last seven days. I'ii bet the things that effected the fish was the suggen rise of .8 ft in the lake almost over night Thrursday and the two 20 degree nights. What was the water temp? It was 56 about a week ago.
Now TRA is dumping 13,200 which is pulling the colder upper creek rain water down into the "good zone"
This appears to be one of those winters where Mama Nature teases us with good fishing and then creates a weather system that screws it up.
Last Wed. it appeared that today would be a calm 3 gate day below the dam. The first in almost 120 days. Bam! Twelve gates open flowing almost 14,000.
Thanks, Mama !


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Interesting thread. I've always wondered why the Kickapoo drainage system doesn't get the same kind of white bass runs that WRC and the big river get...or maybe it does and folks just don't talk about it? With the relatively clear water in the Kickapoo drainage system seems like it would attract more of the "_Morone" bass species. _

I can vividly remember catching white bass lots of times while fishing for largemouths in Kickapoo creek back in the days Wwind3 talked about fishing out of Big John's Marina.

Often we would bass fish the timber, which was abundant back then, and then go out to Dove island and catch some whites.

Twists and turns of Nature are all part of the game...and often, in my experience, it adds to the fishing success long term but often hurts on the short term.

p.s. when I was concentrating on salt water fishing in the late 70's, 80's and 90's, these big flows of water down the Trinity usually meant some terrific fishing in Upper Galveston Bay in the very early spring...and also meant that the oysters in Galveston Bay would be having great seasons after all that fresh water killed off the parasites that prey on the oysters. Its an amazing interlocked system.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Meadowlark, what is that creature in your avatar?


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

That would be the Silver King, Sabalo, Megalops atlanticus, or otherwise known as Tarpon.


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## dbullard (Feb 13, 2008)

great info guys !! Anybody heard of any crappie up Palmetto creek ?


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## RAYSOR (Apr 26, 2007)

SB, is the man of info and I REALLY REALLY, appreciate all the time and expertise he gives, between SS, and SB, I am set!


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## scott2h2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Thank you for the information on Kickapoo. We are going out tomorrow after church. I have not crappie fished Livingston ever. I grew up in Camilla above the dam and all we ever did was troll for whites in several areas from Pine Island to Cape Royale down to the dam. Will pick up minnows in the way tomorrow. Planning to launch at Broken Arrow as per Harry's instructions at Pinwaugh. Be in an old tri-hull Invader with a Merc.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

The water was 51 degrees today SB, and very off color. Only twice have we been skunked up there once the crappie got started, the other time was just like this one, soon after a rain and the water was cold. I think you are right about colder water getting pushed up in there. The fish we did catch would barely move the bait around and would feel cold to the touch. Looks like more rain to come too.
Meadowlark there are some folks who get in on a white bass or two up Kickapoo, they usually go way up Rocky to a shoal, too shallow for the Red-Fin, and only get them right after a rain.


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## Lone Eagle (Aug 20, 2009)

Would like to correct you on one statement. All of the Crappie in Lake Livingston are not natural. Back in the extreme late 1980's or early 1990's, there were some Crappie stocked in various locations. This was during the Johnson Reels Crappiethon era. Monies were collected from people buying their Crappiethon Badges. 
It was not done by TPWD. There was news coverage on this.



Sunbeam said:


> All of the crappie in Livingston are natural. None have ever been stocked by TP&W. This is a population based on pre-lake river and pond fish. You will only tell by a physical examination of the individual fish.
> What is so heartening to me is the number of under size fish in the run. Based on the growth rate of crappie in a food rich environment those small fish were spawned in the spring of 2008.
> If we get a good 2010 spawn and have these little fish to come back in 2011 to spawn we might have a decent crappie fishery for three or four years. That is if those darn stripers do not come along and eat them all. LOL<G>
> Catch, count and record. Love to see your research.


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## wwind3 (Sep 30, 2009)

bueyescowboy said:


> ww3 ...or is that whirlwind 3...anyway, yea run the east bank. mainly stay close to the waterline. after the first bend where you leave the channel there is a boat house and you head straight away from the boat house. Thats about the only tricky part of that east bank. I run from kickapoo to penwaugh all the time. I have been running that east bank for about 20 years now. be careful once you hit the open lake there are still several areas out there that has a bunch of stumps. I was running that way when dove island was an island.


\

yep--you got me--you got the ole whirlwind 

k-thanx--I'll give it a try next week


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Lone Eagle said:


> Would like to correct you on one statement. All of the Crappie in Lake Livingston are not natural. Back in the extreme late 1980's or early 1990's, there were some Crappie stocked in various locations. This was during the Johnson Reels Crappiethon era. Monies were collected from people buying their Crappiethon Badges.
> It was not done by TPWD. There was news coverage on this.


Ah Ha! So maybe there are or were some non typical crappie in the brood stock.
I have heard of the Crappiethon. I was in SE Asia working in the offshore industry at the time. 
Do you know if these were fingerlings from a private hatchery or were these adult tagged fish?
Thamks for the info. I'll put it in the good to know file.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

Lee and I counted dorsal spines on the few undersized fish we caught yesterday and all were white crappie(6 spines, blacks have 7 to 8 spines) After reading Sunbeam's post I think most of the crappie we have been catching are black or hybrids. I will counting their spines for a while to see. 
The black crappie present in Rocky and Kickapoo when the lake was filled are probablly still the dominate sub-species, them and hybrids of white/black. After reading up on my crappie I learned that a small creek like Rocky and Kickapoo and being in East Texas made them more than likely the most prevalent crappie in those creeks before the lake was filled. the reading i have done also states that black crappie have more of the speckled appearance that covers most of the fish, and white crappie have the bars of darker scale against a background of white.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/crappie/

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_br_t3200_178.pdf

The illustration of the black crappie looks like the majority of the fish we catch up Kickapoo, and we catch white ones too, though not as many.

I do remember when the Crppiethon was happening and also remember that they had tournaments to catch and tag some crappie for the event. Some people I know participated and caught their crappie on white Rock Creek, and had to take them to a Marina much further down the lake, maybe Lone Eagle remembers which one, and some were caught back at White Rock in the same holes were they were originally caught, several miles away from where they were tagged and released.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/wcp/

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/crappie/

I think after reading up on crappie from a couple of sources that the majority of the ones we catch up Kickapoo and Rocky are black crappie or hybrids. And that most of the ones up White Rock Creek are white. The type of creek,acidic dark water, and small creeks in east Texas, fit their habitat type perfectly. As does the physical description.
Lee and I counted dorsal spines on the few we caught yesterday and all were white crappie, and they looked very different from the ones we usually catch. Maybe the whites like the cold temps or are not as bothered by the muddy water as much.
I remember the crappiethon back in the 90s and I knew some people who participated in the tournaments where some crappie were caught and brought to a marina for tagging, then released at the place they were tagged. 
I don't remember the Marina, maybe Lone Eagle does, but some of those fish were caught during the tagged event were caught back were they originally captured, many miles from the tagging site, and from the same hole they were originally caught.

Sorry for the double post, a pop window came up after I was done with the first and I could not find it, so I reposted.


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## Lone Eagle (Aug 20, 2009)

Sunbeam said:


> Ah Ha! So maybe there are or were some non typical crappie in the brood stock.
> I have heard of the Crappiethon. I was in SE Asia working in the offshore industry at the time.
> Do you know if these were fingerlings from a private hatchery or were these adult tagged fish?
> Thamks for the info. I'll put it in the good to know file.


They were fingerlings from a private hatchery in Mississippiif I recall correctly. Those Crappie with the Black Stripe on their back are one type that was stocked then. If I recall, the stocked Crappie were released in four part sof the lake; White rock Creek, kickapoo Creek, Wolf Creek and Penwaugh area.


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## bueyescowboy (Apr 10, 2005)

I use to fish in the crappiethon. But as I have stated before I never caught crappie on livingston. We would fish up and down kickapoo, and couldn't get a bite. I even think I remember they stocked some crappie back then. i know they would release tagged crappie, but I also wanna say they released more than just the tagged fish. I do remember some people talking about seeing someone that had caught a tagged crappie. I think several marina's during that time would run the crappiethon because they had several places you could bring a tagged crappie.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Well in a few months we will get lots of "black" crappie. It will not have any thing to do with the species. Those randy male will have their "courting" colors on for sure.
When those males are black, the females are pot bellied and my blue bonnets are blooming it don't get no better in Polk county.


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## slabseaker (Dec 7, 2009)

Sunbeam said:


> Kickapoo and Rocky have received 1.10 to 1.38 inches of rain in the last seven days. I'ii bet the things that effected the fish was the suggen rise of .8 ft in the lake almost over night Thrursday and the two 20 degree nights. What was the water temp? It was 56 about a week ago.
> Now TRA is dumping 13,200 which is pulling the colder upper creek rain water down into the "good zone"
> This appears to be one of those winters where Mama Nature teases us with good fishing and then creates a weather system that screws it up.
> Last Wed. it appeared that today would be a calm 3 gate day below the dam. The first in almost 120 days. Bam! Twelve gates open flowing almost 14,000.
> Thanks, Mama !


 Good info, I read in the [email protected] LAKE REPORT A FEW YR BACK THAT most of are lakes were stocked with CRAPPIE AND OTHER FISH BACK IN THE 60S when most of them were built.I know Conroe and most of the other lakes were back then. it gives you the amount and everythang. how many of each specis and fingerlings that were released.it allso tells you the last time the were stocked and how much. they even tried stocking pike back then, beleive it or not. you can go to there web site and look it all up for each lake. dont remember exacly where I found it in there. pretty interesting. just thought I would shar that...SS


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