# Fighting for your Rights -Bowfishing Lake Houston



## fishermayne

I just wanted to update everyone on the status of bowfishing on Lake Houston. I sent Sgt. Tolan Harding, who is in charge of Lake Patrol on Lake Houston an email yesterday. He is in charge of enforcing the law on the lake, and as it is currently written, it is illegal to discharge a bow. It doesn't matter whether you are hunting or fishing, it is illegal.

Here is what I sent Sgt. Harding yesterday

Officer Harding,

I would like to start by saying that I have the utmost respect for law officers, and I have two cousins that are Harris County Sheriffs. I am writing you because it has been brought to my attention that Lake Houston Patrol is now writing tickets for Bowfishing on Lake Houston. I am an avid angler and have been fishing Lake Houston for over 20 years. I primarily fish for bass and crappie, but unfortunatly the gar population in Lake Houston have become so out of control that many of the small creeks and flats were bass and crappie were once found, are now overrun with gar. It is not uncommon to find 20 or 30 gar in a creek less than 200 yards long. They ambush any game fish that tries to come by and they eventually run the game fish out of that area. The gar have no natural predators in this region and no one fishes for them because they are considered a trash fish. The result is an overabundence of gar. I have tried many tactics to get rid of these gar, but it seems that the only method that is effective is to take them with a bow. I am not doing this for fun, I am doing this because if I don't, no one else will. I am doing this because someone has to do something to stop these creatures from damaging the game fish population in the lake to a point where the effects are irreversable.

I have contacted several city Council Members to see what it would take to get this ordinance changed and they were unaware that such an ordinance existed. I asked them what it would take to get this law changed, and one of the council members actually told me that this is not a priority and that they have more important issues to deal with. I was shocked that I got a response like that, but I was not discouraged. The council woman did not realize that I have an Uncle who is a retired lawyer and an avid angler. I spoke with him and he looked up the regulation that prevents bowfishing, and he thinks that it is a law that prohibits "practicing archery" in Lake Houston City Park. He said that if that is the case, the law is being missaplyed to bowfishing and that giving a ticket to a bowfisher is violating the spirit of the law.

I just wanted to find out if this is the law that is being used to ban bowfishing on the creeks and tributaries that feed into Lake Houston?

If this is the statute that is being used, I was wondering who I can contact at HPD so that I can have an officer come watch me safely discharge my bow and issue me a citation. I am going to put an end to this nonsense, and after I receive my citation we are going to file suit against the City of Houston Parks Department. Texas Parks and Wildlife recognizes bowfishing as a legitimate way to attain non game fish, and the perch jerkers on the City Council should not be overriding TPWD decision. I think that it is ridiculous that HPD is going after anglers who are trying to improve the game fish habitat for all to enjoy. I know that change is not going to come overnight, but filing a suit will force City Council to do there job and reexamine the statute. I know that breaking the law is not the ideal solution, but even Martin Luther King had to spend a night in jail before he was able to enjoy his god given rights.

Best Regards,

Brandon

Here was his reply:

Thank you for your e-mail regarding bow fishing on Lake Houston. Currently bow fishing on Lake Houston is prohibited by city ordinance. Specifically, Chapter 32, Section 32-34, "Hunting and Firearms" No person shall hunt any animal or shoot, fire or discharge any pistol, shotgun or rifle, other firearm or archery arrow in, on, along or across the parks. The provisions of this sections shall not apply to designated target ranges.
The waters of Lake Houston are considered a city park and as such are governed by Chapters 23 and 32 of the Code of Ordinances for the City of Houston.
Council Member Mike Sullivan is the Council Member for the Kingwood area that encompasses Lake Houston. City Council would have to amend Chapter 32 to allow discharging of an archery arrow on Lake Houston.
I can not endorse or encourage you to commit an act that would be a violation of city ordinance. However, if you are observed discharging an arrow in, on, along or across Lake Houston appropriate law enforcement action will be taken.
Please feel free to contact me if I can be of further assistance to you.

Tolan W. Harding, Sergeant
Houston Police Department
Tactical Operations Division, Marine Unit - Lake Patrol
281 324 2250 office
281 324 2764 fax

Here was my response, I am still waiting for him to reply. If he doesn't respond, I will contact Council Member Mike Sullivan. We are going to get this taken care of one way or another.

Sgt. Tolan,

Thank you for getting back with me. I have contacted several city council members, but have not yet contacted Councilman Mike Sullivan. I will try to go through him before taking this matter through the judicial system. Hopefully he will give this matter more consideration than the other council members I contacted. I have already began collecting signatures to take to the city council meeting and was wondering if all of the citations that were issued for practicing archery on Lake Houston are public record? I think some of the people who have already been fined would be interested in helping us fight this bureaucratic battle.

I would also like to get your input on how you think this ordinance should be amended to allow legitimate bowfishing, without putting the public safety at risk. I was looking at the ordinance and it looks like this law was intended to protect people enjoying the park areas, such as Duessen Park, from being hit with a stray arrow. This is obviously a legitimate concern and I would not want a bystander to get injured from an errant arrow from someone practicing archery.

However, the difference is Archery and Bowfishing are not the same sport. In archery the shooter is shooting an arrow that can travel over 300 yards. In bowfishing the arrow is actually attached to the bow with a string. Therefore an arrow can only stray as far as the line is long. Most of the gar, carp, and tilapia that are shot are within 10 yards of the fisher, and most bowfishing lines are 40 yards or less. Therefore if you are more than 150 ft from the archer you are safe. Bowfishing is also different from archery in that you are always shooting down, into the water. With regular hunting you are shooting at a parallel angle or upward angle, to hit an object that is generally above sea level. This allows for the arrow to have a much larger danger zone. Simple physics will dictate that by shooting at a downward angle you are greatly minimizing the "danger" zone.

Furthermore, I would like to point out that the areas where people generally bowfish are the shallow creeks and tributaries that feed into Lake Houston, and not in the main portion of the lake itself. These areas are generally to shallow for recreational boaters and the only people who are in these secluded creeks are people who are out there bowfishing themselves. In all actuality the only people who utilize these waters are bowfishers, and most of these areas are so overpopulated with gar that you can't even fish for game fish there anymore.

I have done some research and found that almost all of the Lakes in Texas allow bowfishing. TPWD views bowfishing as a safe and legal way to capture non-game fish. The officials that regulate Lake Conroe, Lake Livingston, and Lake Sommerville all agree with TPWD and allow bowfishing and I can not find one reported instance of where a bystander was injured due to bowfishing.

I think that while this ordinance has the publics safety in mind, its based on fear and not facts. The facts are that Bowfishing is a legitimate means to catch fish recognized by TPWD. It is beneficial to the local ecosysytem and helps improve the habitat for our game fish species. And there is absolutely no evidence that supports that there is a need to ban bowfishing on Lake Houston in an attempt to provide for public safety.

I would like to get your input on how you think this ordinance should best be amended to allow bowfishing, while still making the public feel safe? Do you think that it should be limited by location (ie. Allowed in any water North of the 1960 Bridge). Or maybe it can be allowed as long as there are no bystanders within 100 yards? I just wanted to get your input since you are an Angler and are on the lake everyday and probably know more about this issue then all of the members on the City Council combined.

Best Regards,

Brandon


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## big v

Any response from Sgt. Tolan ?


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## Jasmillertime

here is some more ammo for you, since they are using section 32 as the guide. ask them to explain this section, and why aren't they writing tickets for it?

Sec. 32-35. - Fishing.

No person shall catch fish within the parks. It shall be an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the actor is: (1)
Fishing in an area of Lake Houston in which fishing is permitted under this Code; or

(2)
Twelve years of age or less or 65 years of age or more and is fishing in any body of water which has been designated for fishing by children and elderly persons by regulation of the director pursuant to section 32-5 of this Code.

I will get some emails sent out also.


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## fishermayne

I have not received a response from Sgt. Tolan yet. I will update the post as soon as I hear back from him.


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## scubaru

Doesn't say a thing about spearfishing, you should get a mask, snorkel, and a speargun. Host a "Lake Houston Garfish Rodeo" and invite some Louisiana dive clubs.


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## HPDLakeSgt

My response to Mr. Fnat's email is below. I am unable to upload the .pdf document but the link to the LCRA regulations is:
http://www.lcra.org/library/media/public/docs/parks/bowfishing_regulations.pdf

Dear Mr. Fant,
I will try to answer all your questions below:
I would imagine that the tickets are public record, you would need to contact the Houston Municipal Court, 1400 Lubbock, Houston TX 713-837-0311.

I think a good model for the regulation of bow fishing is the LCRA regulation. I have attached a copy.
Another resource to contact id the Parks and Recreation Department, as they are one of the controlling departments for Lake Houston. They may be more inclined to help modify the ordinance.
Thank you for your concern.

Tolan W. Harding, Sergeant
Houston Police Department
Tactical Operations Division, Marine Unit - Lake Patrol
281 324 2250 office
281 324 2764 fax


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## texas two guns

Lake Ray Hubbard and the City of Dallas also has the same Ordinance. Although bowfishing does go on at that lake and after contacting the TPWD, the CORP and even the City of Dallas, we held a tournament in which we were promptly kicked off. The following Monday it took a lawyer the better part of a morning to find the rule. There are also rules like this in South Texas counties about discharging arrows into the river bed. The rule was put in place to keep people from hunting deer from the river, but getting our Legislative leaders to ammend the ordiance to state the bowfishing is allowed is very hard to do. Also, these same lakes keep their hands out for TPWD grant money for restocking and such, but discriminate against some lawful fishing techniques. I think if you are asking and getting money from our Pitman Robertson Act taxes, then ALL legal fishing means should be allowed.


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## Jasmillertime

any new update on this?


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## FISHROADIE

Lake Houston has to many none game fish speices in it, and not enough game fish, TPW quit stocking fish in lake Houston when the city of Houston took over. If they are not going to allow bow hunting to help remove some of the none game fish from the lake, at least they could start a stocking program, and improve the quality of the fishing in the lake. lake Houston was and still is a good place to fish, but it could be so much better if they allowed any method of removing at least some of the none gamefish from the lake. Keep trying mabey some day they will get it, good luck.:headknock


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## essayons75

Is it O.K. if I send this thread to Mike Sullivan and a few others here in Kingwood asking for their support to allow this sport on Lake Houston, specifically around Rivergrove Park?

I understand about enforcing the laws, but it seems they only enforced laws if the City of Houston makes money on the enforcement or there are lives threatened, and Heaven knows bow fishing in a swamp is just good sport and recreation. This is a Texas tradition that can not perish at the hands of administrators.


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## ApetRock

Wow. I have actually been thinking about buying a bow to hunt gar on/around Lake Houston for the exact same reason. They definitely outnumber game fish in the lake. A buddy and I fished all day sunday and we saw over 100 gar, it was unreal. I'm glad I read this post before I bought a bow and got hassled by the cops. I understand the law is probably there to prevent hunting deer from the water, but there has to be some amendment for bowfishing. Have you tried catching them with a rod and reel? I've never caught one and I've thrown every lure I could think of, as well as different live/dead baits over the years at them. The spear gun idea sounds like a possible alternative, I wonder how hard they arm to aim from a boat?


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## bowfishrp

Any help would be appreciated. 

As far as I am concerned Lake Houston is anti-bowfishing.....first because they do not allow any air-powered boats in the lake and now this. At minimum they should allow trollers because those shortnose gar WILL take over. If they ever get a gator gar in that lake it will definitely hurt the game fishing....and I KNOW they have gator gar in the san jac river below the dam.


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## arrowbarb

*When did this regulation come into effect?*

When did this law take effect? I raised my two sons and their best friends on the north end of Lake Houston bowfishing for gar and carp. This was some of the best times and they still talk about the fun they had on the lake. To me it is just another example of a bunch of brueaucrats making a law and not doing enough research on it's effects before enacting it. Thanks for the heads up on this issue as i had been considering a return trip for old times with my now adult sons.


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## texas two guns

Yep, but mostly it's Property Owner's Associations and City Councils that vote us out without any representation or a chance to educate them on what we do or even a chance to work out a compromise.


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## fillet

I have lived on the lake for 4 years now and after running jug lines at night I noticed all the gar I used to bowfish alot a few years back and now that my boys are old enough and it was so convienent I figured we would go stick a few on the lake at night I had no idea it was against the law on lake houston Im glad I didnt go yet. I cant imagine bowfishing being illegal for safety reasons who ever dreamed this up has no idea of the sport. Now you can injure yourself bowfishing I have had a bow limb break while doing it but as far as injuring bystanders if they received a bowfishing arrow it probably was no accident. This law is completely misplaced in my opinion and ticketing bowfisherman for discharging a bow is taking it to the extreme.


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## bowfishrp

Cant agree more! This is all politcal BS.


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## texas two guns

The way I see it, that 5 ounce lure with twin treble hooks are more of a dangerous projectile than my arrow.


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## Jasmillertime

so has there been any talk or development with this?


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## texas two guns

Not that I am aware of


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## fishermayne

*Bowfishing on Lake Houston*

I have contacted my city councilman and sent two more emails, and still have not received a single response. I tried working the system, but apparently the system is broken. I have read the regulation carefully and it only says that it is illegal to "practice archery". It says nothing about it being illegal to "possess a bow", so unless lake patrol sees you fire an arrow, you are not in violation of any law. I have had lake patrol stop me on three different occasions since my last post and every time they saw my bowfishing equipment and told me that bowfishing is illegal on the lake. They could not give me a ticket though, because they did not see me fire an arrow. I am going to continue bowfishing the lake and fully expect to get a ticket at some point. I have already discussed this issue with my attorney and we are ready to take this issue to court. It is a gross misinterpretation of the law and lake patrol needs to understand that there is a huge difference between "practicing archery" and the TPWD recognized sport of bowfishing. If I can't get this matter resolved through city council then I guess I will have to sort it out in the judicial system.


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## lost-in-salt

A GOOD law enforcement officers best tool is his ability to use discretion and apply the law for the reason it was written. If a lake patrol officer writes tickets for bowfishing in unpopulated areas of the lake he shows a lack of ability to use proper judgement.


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## duck_slayer89

HPDLakeSgt said:


> My response to Mr. Fnat's email is below. I am unable to upload the .pdf document but the link to the LCRA regulations is:
> http://www.lcra.org/library/media/public/docs/parks/bowfishing_regulations.pdf
> 
> Dear Mr. Fant,
> I will try to answer all your questions below:
> I would imagine that the tickets are public record, you would need to contact the Houston Municipal Court, 1400 Lubbock, Houston TX 713-837-0311.
> 
> I think a good model for the regulation of bow fishing is the LCRA regulation. I have attached a copy.
> Another resource to contact id the Parks and Recreation Department, as they are one of the controlling departments for Lake Houston. They may be more inclined to help modify the ordinance.
> Thank you for your concern.
> 
> Tolan W. Harding, Sergeant
> Houston Police Department
> Tactical Operations Division, Marine Unit - Lake Patrol
> 281 324 2250 office
> 281 324 2764 fax


lets not judge or mock anyone. This man is obviously concerned just as we are. we all have jobs and parts of our jobs we dont agree with ,but they have to be done. I read through the rules that the sgt. attached and they dont seem bad at all. I didnt know that you werent supposed to bowfish lake houston untill today. I was looking into a slough in the back of the commons and spotted 5 gar at once.( 4 alligator Gar 1 longnose) They are way over populated. and you can call me a brown nose if you want to but ive never met Mr. Tolan and those 5 gar are no longer in that slough.


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## Jasmillertime

duck_slayer89 said:


> lets not judge or mock anyone. This man is obviously concerned just as we are. we all have jobs and parts of our jobs we dont agree with ,but they have to be done. I read through the rules that the sgt. attached and they dont seem bad at all. I didnt know that you werent supposed to bowfish lake houston untill today. I was looking into a slough in the back of the commons and spotted 5 gar at once.( *4 alligator Gar* 1 longnose) They are way over populated. and you can call me a brown nose if you want to but ive never met Mr. Tolan and those 5 gar are no longer in that slough.


dont think they were alligator gar. never seen one out there and weve bowfished for years until we found out it wasnt legal out there. 
I am about to be off of work for the summer, I think I am going to start sending some letters and emails


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## gar11

duck_slayer89 said:


> lets not judge or mock anyone. This man is obviously concerned just as we are. we all have jobs and parts of our jobs we dont agree with ,but they have to be done. I read through the rules that the sgt. attached and they dont seem bad at all. I didnt know that you werent supposed to bowfish lake houston untill today. I was looking into a slough in the back of the commons and spotted 5 gar at once.( 4 alligator Gar 1 longnose) They are way over populated. and you can call me a brown nose if you want to but ive never met Mr. Tolan and those 5 gar are no longer in that slough.


Thats illegal. Only one alligator gar per person per day. You think they are over populated because they breathe air. Stop breaking the law!


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## fishermayne

I just wanted to give everyone who is following this issue an update. I have been in contact with District E City Council Rep Mike Sullivan and received an email from him on April 14. His email stated:

"Thank you for contacting my office. I am aware of the incident involving you and HPD Lake Patrol Division, and have been following it closely. Let me first say that ordinances that affect Lake Houston do not fully encompass all of the activities that can, and/or might, occur on Lake Houston. As Chair of the city's Water Resource Management Committee, I have been working on revisions to said ordinances for several months. It is a slow and laborious process, but we are making progress. Until we are able to finalize the revisions and present them to city council, I would encourage you to obey and respect the directives of HPD Lake Patrol Division officers. I do not think I am at a point yet where I will entertain discussions on bow fishing. Our resources are stretched very thin. We are developing our budgets for next year, and are in the middle of the entire Redistricting process. Please bear with us as we conduct the business of running the city and serving our constituents. Right now, it all revolves around timing and resources. Thank you. 
Mike Sullivan
Houston City Council Member, District E
832-393-3008 office

I received this email on April 14, 2011 and I have given Mr. Sullivan three months to get this issue sorted out. I hope that he is a man of his word, and that he is actually going to address this issue, however, since he is a politician I am not going to hold my breath. I am afraid that this email is his way of saying that he has more important things to do and that I should wait indefinitely until he decides that it is a priority. I gave him 3 months and he has 9 days left and then I am going to Plan B. If I can't get this handled through City Council, I am going to take care of it in the City Attorneys Office. I have already contacted the City Attorney to get a ruling on this issue and will try running it through the judicial process. I have spoken with multiple lawyers and even several members of Lake Patrol (excluding Sgt. Harding) who agree that the City Ordinance prohibiting the discharge of archery arrows in City Parks is not intended to prohibit bow fishing. All I need is an ruling that confirms this, and it will be game-on.

I have also been in contact with Sgt. Harding since my last post and tried to reason with him, but he is not willing to compromise. He has a King of the Lake mentality, and believes his interpretation of the law is the only one that matters. However, he is not an attorney and his interpretation of the law does not mean jack. The City Ordinance states that you can not discharge an "archery arrow in or across any city park", and during our conversation I asked him to define "archery arrow" and he told me that bow fishing arrows, crossbow bolts and even spears used for spear fishing would be classified as "archery arrows" because they have a point and fly through the air. After that statement I realized I was not dealing with someone who was reasonable and that he really does not know the difference between an archery arrow and a projectile. He is not an archery expert and when I have my day in court, I will make sure to bring someone who is. 

I will also warn you that a few of the Lake Patrol officers have been given directions to keep bows off the lake all together. I had two friends that were ordered to take their bows back to their cars when Lake Patrol saw them during the routine life jacket/fire extinguisher check. My friends were not familiar with the law, so they complied. However, this order was completely unwarranted and was not a lawful order. There is no City Ordinance prohibiting the mere possession of archery equipment, so Lake Patrol has no authority to order you to remove archery equipment from the Lake. When I called Sgt. Harding out on this issue, he agreed that their was no law prohibiting the possession of archery equipment on the lake. So, as long as they do not witness you "discharging an archery arrow" they have no right to order you to remove your bow. My attorney has advised that if Lake Patrol asks you to take your bows back to your car, ask them if it is an order or merely a request. If they say it is a request, then respectfully decline their request. If they say it is an order, get their name and badge number and email me immediately. 
If anyone else has had any run-ins with Lake Patrol involving archery equipment, or if you have received a citation regarding the discharge of archery arrows, please send me a pm on 2cool. I am going to be taking this issue to the City Attorneys office, so any evidence of Lake Patrol wrong doing will help our cause. 

I would also like to respond to the last post by "GAR11" where he urged us to "Stop Breaking the Law". Sometimes a little civil disobedience is necessary to protect our liberties. I would agree that it should be used as a last resort, but in this case I think we have exhausted all other options. When you are dealing with government agencies who are not willing to reason, sometimes breaking the law is the only option. You telling us not to "break the law" is like telling Rosa Parks to get her arse to the back of the buss. Just because something is the law, does not make it right. As long as you are prepared to accept the consequences of your actions, sometimes breaking the law is the most just thing you can do.


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## Stykbow

Fishermayne...i appreciate your efforts ! Keep us posted on any updates. If we can help , let us know. I would love to b able to bowfish on Lake H. once again.


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## bowfishrp

Just wish they didnt have that no air powered boats on the lake. Tempted to try to get into the river above the lake but afraid the airboat would run out of room quick.

Agreed, great work.


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## texas two guns

Gar11 you make awfully bad assumptions. First off you assume he shot all 4 gator gar by himself. He could have had 3 buddies with him. Second you assume that he shot all 4 in one day. He could have went back consecutive days.


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## FISHROADIE

Keep it up I think if anybody can it sounds like you are the man. I am glad to see some one is so passionate about getting the law changed. I do not bow hunt but I hate to see a lake that can have good fishing in it get over run by gar. TPW does not stock fish in lake Houston anymore since it belongs to the city of Houston, it is on its own to reproduce fish. keep it up if there is anyway I can help I will be glad to.


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## tbone2374

Great effort, but you're butting heads with a bunch of "city folk" that either don't have a clue, at best, or at worst, are completely against "killin" anything"


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## gar11

texas two guns said:


> Gar11 you make awfully bad assumptions. First off you assume he shot all 4 gator gar by himself. He could have had 3 buddies with him. Second you assume that he shot all 4 in one day. He could have went back consecutive days.


Sure. Because that seems very likely? Or he went back to his house to get his bow to shoot them and threw them on the bank like most people do.


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## BT_boater

*Reply from councilman Sullivan*

I have been following this thread and wanted to also try and help the cause. Below is the reply from Councilman Sullivan to my email below his.

Thank you for contacting my council again on this issue.

I am not supportive of bow fishing on Lake Houston based on input from HPD, Public Works, and our Parks Dept. Matter of fact, city council recently updated the city's Chapter 23, which governs activities on the lake, and bow fishing was not one of the permitted activities.

Thank you

Dear Mr. Sullivan,

I am inquiring about the Park Ordinance (Ch 32, sec 32-34)in regards to archery in city parks(Lake Houston). I know you have been contacted previously about this issue but this means of taking fish is lawful in the rest of the state other than lakes totally surrounded by city limits. I would like to know is there some sort of amendment that can be issued to this Ordinance to allow bow-fishing on Lake Houston? I lived in Kingwood before the lake became a city park and bow-fishing was allowed. Now I moved back to Kingwood to find out that the rules have changed due to a ordinance for an actual city park. Any communication on this issue will be appreciated.

Thanks,
BT

From previous threads it seems he has had a change of heart.


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## fishermayne

I don't think he had a change of heart, I think he lied to me. He is after all, a politician. Trusting a politician to take care of an important issue, is like trusting a petaphile to take care of a daycare: it never ends up well and it is likely that someone will end up getting raped. I think Mr. Sullivans tactic was to ignore the problem, and hope that it would just go away. What he didn't realize was that he is messing with a passionate angler, not some whiney liberal tree hugger. I just sent him another email and I will let you all know if he has the decency to respond. 

I also did a little research on Councilman Sullivan and it turns out he is a student at the UH Downtown and he is seeking his third term as city councilman. If this is how he treats his constituents I am going to encourage all of my neighbors to vote for his oposition, and hopefully we can get him out of politics. His bio said that he served for Michael Berry, who I personally admire and respect. Unfortunatly, Mr. Sullivan didn't inherit Michael Berry's values of honesty and integrity. It looks like instead of adressing issues head on, he would rather ignore his constituents and negotiate with other politicians and government employees in closed door meetings. If my time wasn't already consumed by working at a real job, I would have half a mind to run against this guy for city council and teach him what it means to be a public servent. Unfortunatly, some people in this district have to work to pay the bills for those who don't. Anyway, below is the email I sen't him, hopefully it will warrant a response.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Sullivan,

I have been patiently sitting by waiting for you to contact me in regards to the legislation regarding bow fishing on Lake Houston. I have not heard back from you, or your office, and I am beginning to think that your last email was insincere and an attempt to stall my efforts. You said that you were too busy to discuss the bowfishing matter with me due to your busy schedule. Well, it has been over 9 months and I still have not heard anything regarding this issue and I would like the respect I deserve. I am not happy with the way that you are handling this matter, and as a constituent, I feel I deserve to be addressed. I have already contacted several lawyers on this matter and my council has indicated that the statutes that are being enforced by Lake Patrol are a gross misinterpretation of the law. I was waiting to use the legal system as a last resort, but it is at the point now where that may be necessary. The city ordinance states that "practicing archery in a city park is prohibited", however bowfishing and practicing archery are two materially different activities; and I feel that a jury of my peers will agree. If you wish me to take this issue to trial, and tie up your time and tax payers money, so be it. However, I would prefer that you do your job as my city councilman and address this issue head on. Either way this issue will be cleared and I will no longer sit by while the Lake Houston fishery is destroyed by these trash fish. Texas Parks and Wildlife graciously gave control of the lake over to the City of Houston, and they are neglecting in their duties to protect the few game species that remain. 

Sincerely Concerned,

Brandon


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## fishermayne

I just received this response from Councilman Sullivan. Im not sure what he was talking about since I haven't talked to the guy in 9 months. :

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:32 PM, Sullivan, Mike - CNL <[email protected]> wrote:

With all due respect, I gave you an answer the other day and responded that I did not support efforts to alter the ordinance that prohibits bow fishing. I oppose it. HPD opposes. Parks Dept opposes it.

Thank you.
​


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## fishermayne

Allright, I just sent him another email. I am just about done wasting my time with this joker. He obviusly doesn't have any respect for the opinions of his constituents. If you care to read my response, it is posted below:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Sullivan,

I have not had any correspondence with you in over nine months and when you last emailed me you did not give me any answers. The last email I received from you was that you were too busy to deal with this issue, and you would get back with me. I took you on your word and waited patiently for over 9 months without getting a single response. 

As far as your oposition to bowfishing goes, I think you should listen to both sides of the issue before you pass judgement. You said that you were not ready to talk to me in June, because you were busy working on your budget. However, you obviously had time to discuss this issue with HPD and the Parks Department, you just didn't have time to discuss this issue with your constituents who passionatly support it. As a City Councilman for District E, it is your job to stand up for your constituents, or at the least give them a chance to voice their concerns. If you are going to go along with whatever the Lake Patrol and City Parks Department supports, then why don't you just resign and let them take over your job. It is your responsibility to remain fair and balanced and listen to both sides of the issue before deciding what you do or do not support.

I would like to sit down with you and find out what exactly the Lake Patrol and Parks Department said to you that made you decide that you can oppose bowfishing without even listening to the other side of the story. I think that it would be in your best interest to make your own decision after listening to both sides, before you pass judgement, on this, or any issue for that matter. I also find it odd that you said that HPD does not support bowfishing, when I have spoken with the Head of Lake Patrol, Sgt. Tolan Harding, and have written statements that he supports bowfishing on Lake Houston as long as certain regulations are implemented. I would love to go over that with you and see if we can come up with an acceptable solution rather that just tell me I am not allowed to do it because "you don't support it". I am not a child, and you are my Councilman, not my father. 

Respectfully,

Brandon


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## fishermayne

Just received the following email from Mike Sullivan:

I'm not trying to disregard or ignore your position on the issue. I respect your opinion, but just happen to disagree. I have to balance conflicting positions and interests on a daily basis. I have done that this time, too, and I stand by my decision.
Thank you.


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## fishermayne

Mr. Sullivan,

With all due respect, you cannot disagree with my opinion because you have never given me a chance to voice it. I'm not sure what they are teaching you at the University of Houston Downtown, but in order to disagree with my opinion, you must first know what my opinion is. You have never given me the opportunity to explain to you why I think bowfishing should be allowed on Lake Houston, or all of the benefits that could come from it. You have also never given me the chance to hear why you believe that it should not be allowed and given me a chance to respond to it. You are being very narrow minded and probably know very little about the sport of bowfishing, and many of your assumptions are probably not based in fact. All that I asked was that you give me a few minutes of your time to discuss this issue before you formed your opinion. You indicated that you would be willing to do that back on April 14 when you wrote:

"I do not think I am at a point yet where I will entertain discussions on bow fishing. Our resources are stretched very thin. We are developing our budgets for next year, and are in the middle of the entire Redistricting process. Please bear with us as we conduct the business of running the city and serving our constituents. Right now, it all revolves around timing and resources."

However, instead of giving each party in this matter a chance to voice their opinion, you just listened to one side of the issue. In order for true discourse to occur you really need to examine both sides of an issue and not censor the side that you think you don't agree with. I know that you are in your third and final term as City Councilman for District E, but if you wish to continue in politics you need to realize that there are two sides to every story, and they both deserve the right to be heard. Instead of making your decisions in closed door meetings, you should invite all parties to the table and look for a more amicable solution. In the words of one of Americas greatest representatives, Benjamin Franklin, "The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about". If you decide to enlighten yourself and listen to my case for allowing bowfishing feel free to call me, but it appears in this circumstance you are content in remaining ignorant. 

Disregarded Constituent,

Brandon


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## texas two guns

Go get 'em Tiger.


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## bowfishrp

CC someone at the chronicle....not sure anyone would pick it up but they love making the Houston council look "smart" and I think this would do it.


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## Jasmillertime

I know the judge for precinct 3, I will send him an email and see what help I can get from him.


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## McDaniel8402

Dang! I don't even have a dog in this fight, but it makes me wanna cheer you on fishermayne. I love to bowfish, but haven't done it in several years. I live in Dickinson, so Lake Houston would be a bit of a commute, but I do love seeing someone take a stand against idiotic politics and ignorant policies. Keep it up man!!


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## Stykbow

Any new news ???


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## FlatRock Construction

You the Man! I live one Lake Houston by Duesson Park, and have been wanting to get my boys into bowfishing. We bow hunt all over and love it! You are putting up a heck of a fight. I just wanted to thank you for your efforts! I wonder if they could license or permit bowfishing in the lake? Revenue for the parks dept? If it somehow benefits certain departments , you might get a hung jury on the matter. Just thinking out loud. Were building a bowfishing rig now, I guess we just have to get Ninja with it! Lol

---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?sprfwz
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fishermayne

I just wanted to give everyone an update. I sent two seperate emails to head of the City of Houston Parks department, Joe Turner, and have not received a single response. Again it seems the strategy is to just ignore the conflict in hopes that it will just go away. I am done trying to work within the system. All I am getting is lies and excuses and it is getting me nowhere. I stopped bowfishing Lake Houston for the last year in an attempt to handle this civily. However, these government desk monkeys are about as useless as tits on a bull, and I am done with them. If they won't even give me the common courtesy to respond to my emails, I am not going to attempt to work with them any longer. 

Now it is time to take this fight to the next round and work this issue through the judicial system. I am going to start bowfishing Lake Houston again, and if Sgt. Harding and his Lake Patrol Posse happen to observe me shooting my bow while actively engaging in the lawful act of bowfishing, then so be it. This issue WILL be taken to trial and it will be there burden to convince a jury of my peers that there are no "material differences" between an archery arrow and a bowfishing arrow. I have studied the City Ordinance that they claim prohibits bowfishing:

Chapter 32, Section 32-34, "Hunting and Firearms" No person shall hunt any animal or shoot, fire or discharge any pistol, shotgun or rifle, other firearm or archery arrow in, on, along or across the parks.

I have several "expert witnesses" lined up that are ready to testify that an archery arrow and a bowfishing arrow are completly different projectiles. And the projectile that we happen to be shooting at fish, is not an archery arrow. All it is going to take in one sane person in the jury to recognize that fact and this whole issue will be cleared up. I am not sure what the bereaucracy has against bowfishing, but they are about to be confronted with a situation that will force them to defend there terrible policy, instead of blindly standing behind it.


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## Texican89

Keep up the good fight!


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## C-KRIGAR

Your really becoming a pain in these guys butts and thats a good thing. Eventually they will give in and change the law hopefully.


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## texas two guns

Let me know if you need the help of the Texas Bowfishing Association. We are also in an alliance with Lone Star Bowhunters Association, which gives us more numbers. We feel like we can call on the TPWD as well, if we need assistance in confirming that bowfishing is not hunting but FISHING.


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## duck_slayer89

just a thought guys let me know what you think. these Desk monkeys only let one thing get there attention. what if we proposed a 1 or 2 weekend bowfishing tourney and showed them how much money it would bring into the community and at the same time take many gar out of the lake which would help the game fish population. which would also generate more revenue because there would be more people fishing lake Houston. im sure TBA would love to host the event and have proven to Texas parks and wildlife that they can do so in a very lawful and safe manner. just an idea they would probably still ignore us.


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## labyrnth

I'm glad to see this thread. I wish they would allow bow fishing in the lake again.
I'm fairly new to it, however I live right close to the lake too.
Wonder of a huge petition would help the cause?

Off track Question: can you jugline, limb line & trotline the lake still?
The way this mess reads it looks like only children & seniors can fish the lake.


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## texas two guns

The TBA won't host a tournament on a lake where bowfishing is not allowed. That is just asking for bad publicity. If you/we could get a weekend pass or something or other as an experiment, then we'd be willing to host.


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## bowfishrp

This lake is closer to me that Conroe so yeah we would love to do a tournament there is they give us a pass. There is one other issue too...many bowfishermen in southeast Texas are also using fan boats and airboats which are both outlawed on the lake as well. While we are asking for a bowfishing pass we might want to ask for an air powered pass as well.

Coleto Creek (near Victoria) does not allow airboats either, except during a tournament which has been once a year.


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## duck_slayer89

that is very true they would have to allow air/fan boats for a good turnout. is there a reason they aren't allowed now.


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## labyrnth

I'm guessing they may not allow air boats because of noise pollution since the lake is surrounded by houses.


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## bowfishrp

Most lakes are now...they still allow airboats on conroe.


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## labyrnth

I think instead of pressing the topic bow fishing. And press the issue that these fish are decreasing the game fish population. And implement bow fishing as a means to improve the species in the lake. 
Also I would like for the emails of these people you are emailing be made public in this thread so others may correspond as well. Power in numbers,
Possibly get petitions going in the surrounding community to help improve the game fish in the lake.


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## texas two guns

I think you'd be surprised at the turnout with a troller only tournament.


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## fishermayne

I just received some terrible news and I thought I would share it with everyone who has been following this thread. Apparently Sgt. Tolan Wayne Harding is no longer with the Lake Patrol Unit and he has been transferred to another department within HPD. His tremendous efforts enforcing trivial laws will not be forgotten and I am sure that Lake Houston will be a much more dangerous place in his absence. He will be greatly missed and I sincerely hope that whatever beat he has been reassigned to does not require any judgment calls or critical thinking skills. 
Hopefully the new Sgt. in charge of Lake Patrol will have the discretion to understand there are material differences between practicing archery and the TPWD sanctioned sport of bowfishing. I hope that he will also understand the intent of the City Ordinance that was taken out of context by his predecessor and that he will have more important matters to attend to than trying to harass sportsman who are out trying to rid the lake of trash fish and improve the natural habitat for the native desirable species. Over the last two years I have spoken with many of the officers who worked under Tolan Harding, and many of them said that they personally thought the city ordinance was being misconstrued but they had been given strict orders to "stop all bowfishing" by there former Sgt. Now that the Dick-tator is gone, hopefully these officers will be allowed to exercise discretion and determine what activities pose a public threat.
At this point, I am going to continue bowfishing the Lake as I did before I had the misfortune of running into Sgt. Harding. I am not going to make a big deal about it or bring attention to the fact that there was ever an issue. I still believe the intent of the City Ordinance was to protect kids on playgrounds from being hit by a stray arrows from those practicing archery in a city park, not to prevent people from shooting invasive species in muddy sloughs 2 miles from the nearest house. 
I don't think it would be wise to host a bowfishing tournament on Lake Houston right now, and draw unnecessary attention to the issue. I think if we continue to be smart about it, follow the TPWD guidelines, and make sure to clean up after ourselves we will have a much more productive outcome. As much fun as it would be to fill the lake with airboats, mud motors and bright lights, I don't think it would be beneficial to our cause. I think we represent our sport in a courteous and respectful manner we will be able to win over the new Sgt. in charge and show him that bowfishing is a safe and legitimate activity that should be allowed on Lake Houston.


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## reeltimer

awesome!


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## labyrnth

Well I don't think fishing the lake is a great idea either since it is not allowed right now. 
However drawing attention is what is needed unlike what you are saying. Your trying to draw attention by bowfishing it now. But if they can legally get permission to do it with trollers then they will see how safe it can be. And there will be a greater supporting force instead of a lone ranger paying a fine.


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## SaltwaterSlick

Well fishermayne any update? I'm new to the site, though not new to this situation... been bowfishin' Lake Houston 20+ years, and a friend of mine and I used to take kids from our church out in canoes to get them into the outdoors... what fun we had... just a dang shame that such a fun and positive and productive activity for these young people was stopped by a bunch of jerks. The carp are very invasive and destructive species in that lake as well as the gar. during the spawn in the spring, we'd kill literally hundreds of both daily for a week or two. Hope we can get it fixed.


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## reelfishinman

I like the letter and it makes plenty of sense to me--I actually had no clue bow fishing was not allowed in lake Houston. I have bow fished Livingston before without even giving it a thought. Hope you get something done about it because it is a legal way to fish for gar...but has anyone noticed that some idiot actually put gar on the species list this year? One gar per person per day...I never thought I would see that day! So if you were able to bow hunt gar in the lake it would take a long time to get them out if that law sticks around for a while! I would like to know how this turns out...


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## gar11




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## fishermayne

The one gar per/day limit is only for Alligator Gar. An overwhelming majority (99%) of gar I have seen on lake Houston are short nose, spotted, or longnose, which are not limited at all. I have shot many Alligator Gar, but never on Lake Houston. You can tell the differrence because Alligator Gar are generally larger, have a shorter nose, and they also have a double row of teeth. That is not to say there are not any on Lake Houston, I just have never seen or heard of one being caught.


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## 09 ag fan

Hey guys I am new to the boards but this is something that is dear to me because I grew up on a small tributary to the river in Humble and I lived on the water with my cousin bowfishing. A few things I will add here. I am a part of the Lake Houston Sports and recreation Foundation ( http://lakehoustonsports.com/ )and we are in pretty frequent contact with the TPWD so next time I talk to Mark Webb I will ask him what his opinion on this is. It should be pretty soon because we are supposed to go out on his shock boat within a few weeks. I know this issue is on the local level of government, but we also work with the area state legislator Dan Huberty a lot becuse he is in austin fighting for us to get the lake the support it should have been getting for the last 30 years or so. He has a lot of good contacts in the political world so I will put him on getting this rule changed. If I can get him and Mark Webb on board then we might be able to get this thing changed.


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## calphil

Bringing back the past .. Anything ever happen with this ??? I went to try to bass fish and I was catching gar on my crank bait and the grass carp where so bad I could have literally thrown a cast net and caught 50


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## fishermayne

calphil said:


> Bringing back the past .. Anything ever happen with this ??? I went to try to bass fish and I was catching gar on my crank bait and the grass carp where so bad I could have literally thrown a cast net and caught 50


Just thought I would let you know the inside scoop about bowfishing Lake Houston. I raised some he77 a few years ago, and tried to get some legal clarification on the issue, but no one at The City of Houston Parks department would entertain taking on a project that didn't benefit them and that they couldn't get a kick back for. Â I tried talking to Rep. Sullivan, but he just lied to me, put me off for over a year, and eventually (thankfully) left office.Â

So, as far as it being legal: it is still a grey area. Â Technically bowfising on Lake Houston is not illegal, however, using archery arrows in a city park is against a city parks code. Â The city has a rule to protect the kids playing at city parks from getting hit by a stray arrows, and since ALL of Lake Houston is considered a city park, the code can be applied. Â The city code referred to is:

Chapter 32, Section 32-34, "Hunting and Firearms" No person shall hunt any animal or shoot, fire or discharge any pistol, shotgun or rifle, other firearm or archery arrow in, on, along or across the parks. The provisions of this sections shall not apply to designated target ranges."

There are two fundamental problems with attempting to use his code to argue that bowfishing is illegal.

1. Bowfishing is not Hunting. Â The title of this section is "hunting and firearms" not "hunting and fishing". Â HuntingÂ an animal is completely different from fishing. And bowfishing is considered a form of fishing, not hunting, so it would not violate any part of the "no hunting animals" part of this code. Â For further evidence of this, please see TPWD regulations, which require you to purchase a fishing license to bowfish; a hunting license is not required.

2. "Archery" Arrows are specifically prohibited, however, "Bowfishing" Arrows are not mentioned anywhere in the code. Â The fact that the code specifically states that "archery" arrows are prohibited, would allow for a reasonable person to assume that other types of arrows may exist and thus would still be legal. Â In fact other types of arrows do exist, and the fiberglass rods we use to stick fish,Â are inherently different from an archery arrow. Â An archery arrow has several specific parts, including "flights" which are the feathers that help them fly further and straight. Â The fact that these are absent from a bowfishing arrow is a material change, and would be evidence that the two types of arrows may share some similar characteristics, but are in no way the same.

This city code was wrongfully interpreted by the former head of the Lake Patrol, who was not an attorney. Â He was a Dick-tator and Sgt. Harding had decided that he could decide the laws of the lake. Many of the officers who worked for Harding told me they didn't agree with their Sgt's interpretation but just had to follow his orders. Â Sgt. Harding was transferred and I have not heard of any tickets being issued for bowfishing since he was De-throned. Â I did contact the City Attorneys office, but was told that since I had not received a citation, they wouldn't be able to issue an official review.Â

I did go bowfishing in Lake Houston several times over the last few years, but I always made sure that I only brought bowfishing arrows and left my archery arrows at home, so that there would be no confusion. Â I did so at my own risk and was prepared to receive a citation, so I had my go-pro ready to video record the entire interaction. Unfortunately, I did not see a single Lake Patrol officer on any of those outings.

The whole situation is just ridiculous. Â You literally have to fight every bureaucracy in The City of Houston, just to be able to go out and stick a fish. Â I feel that fishing is a basic human instinct and bowfishing is something Native Americans have been doing for thousands of years. But for some reason now some individuals with the city have decided that it is dangerous and too needs to be regulated. Â Pretty soon the city of Houston is going to require you to buy a permit if you want to grow grass in your yard. Â

There is one thing you can do if you want to avoid the crazies down at The City of Houston: just move to The Woodlands! I did and now I can bowfish Lake Conroe and Lake Livingston anytime I want without having to worry about HPDs water swine unit harassing me. Plus, you don't have the extra taxes, higher water rates, and terrible city services. Â I know its not all Mayor Porker's fault, but Kingwood and Lake Houston have gone wayyyyy down hill since Houston annexed it. Â


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## jclc43837

might be a stupid question but could you use a sling shot rig i know its not the same as a bow but it would be great for that jerk to pull up and all you had was some slingshots rigged out for bow fishing.


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## labyrnth

We are just lucky we dont have to pay a fee everytime we want to get on the lake.


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## BDann

I kinda hate to dredge up an old post, but it seemed like a good place to start.

I've been in contact with my Houston city councilman Dave Martin about the possibility of changing the ordinance that prohibits bowfishing on Lake Houston. He is willing to tackle this, but would like to see more support for bowfishing on the lake before doing so.

If any of you guys have any interest in bowfishing on Lake Houston please contact Dave Martin's office. The contact for his office is Jessica Beemer and you can email her directly at [email protected].


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## ak

If it's really about knocking down the gar population I will tell you it's very easy to stick gar with a long boat gig (10-12ft). Maybe not so much the big alligator gar but you can stick needle nose all night. might be something to hold you over until you get the law changed.


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