# Just a Matter of Time....No Mas Beavertail



## bartfromcorpus

For those of you that didn't know about this...Hells Bay filed suit against Beavertail for patent infringement, etc. for copying their hull design. Apparently they settled, and Beavertail must destroy their molds.

I'm not anti-Beavertail or pro-Hells Bay, but I wonder how long it will take before you start seeing more of this in Texas alone. It's pretty apparent that there are a lot of boats out there that are the obvious knock-offs of some others. Shallow Sport comes to mind as one of those that's been copied more times than I can count.

Below is a link to the settlement documents if you're interested.

http://www.hellsbayboatworks.com/pdf/HellsBay_Beavertail.pdf


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## Fishdaze

Interesting. Thanks for posting that. I know it's been an issue for a long time, and those BT guys tried to defend it. I don't know of any suites like this amoung the Texas builders, but it could very well happen.


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## Ish

Were you surprised that this happened?

When you rip off someone's design it's just a matter of time before you get spanked.

Too bad for current BT owners. Their warranties are worthless now (unless of course they'll fit in with the Big 3 warranties that Obama has guaranteed... :smile


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## Stuart

Ish said:


> Were you surprised that this happened?
> 
> When you rip off someone's design it's just a matter of time before you get spanked.
> 
> Too bad for current BT owners. Their warranties are worthless now (unless of course they'll fit in with the Big 3 warranties that Obama has guaranteed... :smile


Why is my warranty "worthless"? BT is still in business and still building boats with the new model coming out any day.


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## Gottagofishin

The jury is still out on the warranties. 

I called them Friday and the said they still plan to honor their hull warranty. They are about to introduce a skiff of their own design called the Vengence. They also have a number of other products besides the skiffs in question.

As long as they are in business and willing to honor the warranties, then they are still good. The real question is whether or not the new boat will allow them to stay in business.


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## bartfromcorpus

I'm glad for the BT owners that they will still honor your warranties. 

I'm sure they're a good company that builds sound boats, and I hope that they're able to turn things around with their new hull design and that nobody up there has to lose a job over the settlement.


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## Ish

oh, sorry.... i heard they were shutting down. i must have heard wrong.

hopefully they survive and your warranty will be good.

it's just that it's hard for a company (let alone one that makes only luxury products) to make it in a deep recession when they have to eliminate their entire product line and start over.

They "settled" which undoubtedly cost them some cash. Credit is incredibly tight (especially for a group that just "lost" a patent infringement case and doesn't really have any significant income right now) so they better have a pile cash (which all skiff companies do) for the steep R&D (_*R*esearch and *D*evelopment_, not _*R*ip-off and *D*uplicate_ this time around) costs they now face (not to mention the current warranty costs).

Add to that a drop in consumer confidence in the brand...

but yeah, don't worry, your warranty is rock-solid.



Stuart said:


> BT is still in business and still building boats with the new model coming out any day.


They are still building boats? I thought they had to cease and desist, and destroy the molds?? New model any day? When, this week? This month? How do you build boats before the new plug and mold is done?

hopefully they can make it.


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## Gottagofishin

Ish said:


> ...They are still building boats? I thought they had to cease and desist, and destroy the molds?? New model any day? When, this week? This month? How do you build boats before the new plug and mold is done?


They (Fisher) have a whole line of aluminum hunting and marsh boats along with a line of mud motors. They also have a line of boat trailers. Beavertail skiffs are just a part of the business.

I also expect they didn't start building the new mold yesterday. They've probably been hedging their bet and working on it for a while. I heard some rumors they were working on a new design about 5 months ago.

I don't know anything about their finances, but they do have other lines of business not related to the suit.

Sorry to disappoint, but it may be a little early to nail the coffin shut.


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## Ish

oh, good to hear. not disappointed at all. got a buddy with one of those boats and sure don't want him to get screwed. 

perhaps they will make it. let's hope so. based on what they had on their website it didn't look good for them.


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## Gottagofishin

Hear is another link to their other boats...
http://www.explorebeavertail.com/


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## Stuart

The response from BT. To summarize.........

1) HB paid BT a large sum of money in part of the deal
2) the original molds were never built by BT, but a company in Tennessee 
3) BT is in better shape than ever


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## jackfishish

Bt in better shape??? Sure,I will trust that statement from a guy who splashed a HB.


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## beavertailrep

*smack!!*

JP, you sure a big boy behind that screen. It is what is and it just boils down to if your going to stir a pot of S**t be prepared to get some of it on yourself! For obvious reasons now, I couldn't come out weeks ago and let the truth be known! Have a day!



Ish said:


> oh, sorry.... i heard they were shutting down. i must have heard wrong.
> 
> hopefully they survive and your warranty will be good.
> 
> it's just that it's hard for a company (let alone one that makes only luxury products) to make it in a deep recession when they have to eliminate their entire product line and start over.
> 
> They "settled" which undoubtedly cost them some cash. Credit is incredibly tight (especially for a group that just "lost" a patent infringement case and doesn't really have any significant income right now) so they better have a pile cash (which all skiff companies do) for the steep R&D (_*R*esearch and *D*evelopment_, not _*R*ip-off and *D*uplicate_ this time around) costs they now face (not to mention the current warranty costs).
> 
> Add to that a drop in consumer confidence in the brand...
> 
> but yeah, don't worry, your warranty is rock-solid.
> 
> They are still building boats? I thought they had to cease and desist, and destroy the molds?? New model any day? When, this week? This month? How do you build boats before the new plug and mold is done?
> 
> hopefully they can make it.


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## Gottagofishin

Dang. Now I'm going to have to buy a new boat when the Vengence comes out.


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## Flaco

Ish said:


> Were you surprised that this happened?
> 
> When you rip off someone's design it's just a matter of time before you get spanked.
> 
> Too bad for current BT owners. Their warranties are worthless now (unless of course they'll fit in with the Big 3 warranties that Obama has guaranteed... :smile


Ish, say what you will about BT but don't tie BT to Obama. That's too low!:smile:


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## Ish

Pretty pathetic - but nice way to spin it.

Claiming the boat isn't a knock off is laughable, and why does he assume everyone wants him out of business? That wouldn't be good for the industry. All that HB wanted was to protect their intellectual property, which is what they did.

BTrep, using foul language on a forum while representing your company - very professional _(but you sure showed me)._


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## Gottagofishin

All we really know for sure is that HB sued BT for splashing their hulls. Beavertail is destroying or at least no longer using their molds. They settled and neither side can discuss the details. HB apparently cut BT a check for something.

Everyone can fill in the blanks on their own, but when I was getting my boat the professionalism and customer service at Beavertail were exceptional. They did what they said, when they said, and even delivered the boat a week early.

Based on my personal experience in dealing with them on a large transaction, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

The quality of my boat has been exceptional and I will definitely consider buying another Beavertail.


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## Ish

Gottagofishin said:


> They settled and neither side can discuss the details.


At least one of the parties (so far) has upheld that end of the agreement.


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## Flaco

Ish said:


> At least one of the parties (so far) has upheld that end of the agreement.


Ish,
I have to respectfully disagree. Hell's Bay put out a news release about the settlement, which apparently was only half true, on their website, seemingly immediately after it was finalized. It looks to me like neither party has upheld that end of the agreement. When all is said and done. The truth will rest somewhere in the middle.:brew: Lets go fish sometime.


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## Ish

Flaco said:


> Ish,
> I have to respectfully disagree. Hell's Bay put out a news release about the settlement,...


yeah, I saw that. HB had questions to answer too.

but you have to admit that a 9 minute you tube video goes a lot further than a one page statement.

don't get me wrong, i don't "have a horse in the race." i hope both can move on and be successful but I hope it teaches others out there that copying someone else's work is not the right way to go.



Flaco said:


> Lets go fish sometime.


Anytime you want...shoot me a pm.


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## Flaco

Ish said:


> yeah, I saw that. HB had questions to answer too.
> 
> but you have to admit that a 9 minute you tube video goes a lot further than a one page statement.
> 
> 
> Ish said:
> 
> 
> 
> I 'm really not trying to defend BT or get into a pi**ing match over this issue but I do think that it is important to see both sides of the story. It was a 9 minute youtube video in response to both HB's "one page" and maybe not entirely true statement and hours upon hours worth of forum junkies' commentary. The HB fans have really been circling the wagons so to speak. I agreee with you that copying another man's work leaves a bit to be desired but we both know that there were many other aspects to the situation. HB was bankrupt at the time. etc.
> 
> (quote) don't get me wrong, i don't "have a horse in the race." (end quote)
> 
> No offence intended but the original Maverick Mirage looks alot like the Dolphin Skiff.
Click to expand...


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## Ish

why would that be offensive? the original maverick mirage WAS a dolphin skiff!!! :cheers:


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## Flaco

So, 10 years from now, if we have this converstion we may agree that the original BT was a Hell's Bay?


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## Ish

i can agree on it now.


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## d-donaghue

flaco,,, did you stay home this weekend? ek said u were heading down.


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## Flaco

:an1:


Ish said:


> i can agree on it now.


Point being, this is nothing new or unique to BT and HB. the Mav is no longer a dolphin and the BT is no longer a HB,(at least for the last few minutes). If BT is successful in the future, all of this hoopla may go away. It has for other manufacturers (sp) over the years. I don't know what the emoticon means but whatever.


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## Ish

Nope, you're absolutely right. People have been ripping off other people's designs for years. This case is just the latest example of who got caught and spanked and is getting run through the rumor mill. 

Don't like it? - Don't rip off other people's shuff and you won't have to face the court of public opinion.

:an2:

So when are you gonna pole me around on the front of that Beavertail?


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## Flaco

Ish said:


> Nope, you're absolutely right. People have been ripping off other people's designs for years. This case is just the latest example of who got caught and spanked and is getting run through the rumor mill.
> 
> Don't like it? - Don't rip off other people's shuff and you won't have to face the court of public opinion.
> 
> :an2:
> 
> So when are you gonna pole me around on the front of that Beavertail?


We agree. I'll push the boat for you any time. PM me and we'll get together.


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## Flaco

d-donaghue said:


> flaco,,, did you stay home this weekend? ek said u were heading down.


Sadly, I stayed home. weather too questionable.


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## kdumas

Ish,
I have refrained from posting my opinion even though I Do Own a BT and Love It, because that is all it would be "An Opinion". I don't expect to or want to be privy to the complete agreement between BT & HB, only the owners and lawyers will ever know everything.
Apparently you must be very young in age and full of opinions. _Feel free to ask anyone about the old adage on opinions and assumptions._

Public Opinion;
Ish ~ "Don't rip off other people's shuff and you won't have to face the court of public opinion"
Learn to spell

Ish ~ "oh, sorry.... i heard they were shutting down. i must have heard wrong"
How does Crow taste?"

Ish ~ "They "settled" which undoubtedly cost them some cash &#8230;.."
 Who?


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## Ish

k dum as, see below:

(you're awfully late to the party, but at least you're here, I guess.)



kdumas said:


> Ish,
> I have refrained from posting my opinion even though I Do Own a BT and Love It, because that is all it would be "An Opinion".
> 
> *NEWSFLASH!,*_ that's why places like this exist...stories, opinions, conjecture, general b.s.... without that why come here?_
> 
> ...Apparently you must be very young in age and full of opinions. _Feel free to ask anyone about the old adage on opinions and assumptions._
> 
> _I love it...you lecture me on making assumptions, but right before you do, you make one yourself about me. Classic. :rotfl:_
> 
> _Feel free to learn how to use the "ignore" feature._
> 
> Public Opinion;
> Ish ~ "Don't rip off other people's shuff and you won't have to face the court of public opinion"
> Learn to spell
> 
> _Oh it's spelled right, sport. _
> 
> _"Shuff" is an inside joke between a couple of people on here, and one you obviously didn't get. FYI - "shuff" is part s*** and part stuff._
> 
> _Even if I had meant "stuff" it would still be simply a typo, and hardly evidence I can't spell._
> 
> Ish ~ "oh, sorry.... i heard they were shutting down. i must have heard wrong"
> How does Crow taste?"
> 
> _I'm human and make mistakes all the time. At least I apologized and admitted it..._
> 
> _But re: "making assumptions" above, how about you tell me? How's it taste?_
> 
> Ish ~ "They "settled" which undoubtedly cost them some cash &#8230;.."
> Who?
> 
> _All involved. BT, HB, and BT's insurance company at the very least. _
> 
> _Fisher claims his insurance company paid every last dime of the dispute and it ~"didn't cost him a nickel." That may be, but what happens to your insurance premiums the next year after you wreck your car and the insurance company paid in full for all damages?_
> 
> _If I'm that risk manager and I'm looking at a client that I just had to pay out to for legal fees who (incidentally) just got spanked in a legal dispute involving patent infringement (yes, I know, "neither party had to admit fault" - whatever, everyone sees it for what it is), I think that maybe, just maybe, I would consider this client's activities "risky" and I likely would adjust (read raise) premiums to better cover that risk. (Those premiums going up = cost to BT.) But that's just me... _
> 
> _Of course that would be making an assumption and you say we aren't supposed to do that. _


Some points to ponder:

Another thing I find amazing is the whole premise of the YouTube address. Forget the whole amateurishness of it. If you listen to his little video, he tries to make it sound like getting threatened with a suit and having to settle is a good thing. Not to mention the positive spin he put on eliminating the entire product line of one of his brands - all while spending a large amount of $ (based on the average cost to design and build a boat mold) on R&D for an original design.

He makes it sound like this whole lawsuit mess was a great way to make money and actually come out ahead. He sounds like another "campaigner" I've grown very tired of. (sorry flaco, just sayin'.)

Ask any other manufacturer if they see potential lawsuits as a good thing, or if they want this happeneing to them.

It's insulting to the audience because he assumes they are stupid enough to buy it. I'd have a lot more respect for them if he just came out and admitted what they did, said that they did it because they thought HB was gone, and in hindsight it was a mistake. He could mention the other brands to reassure potential customers of their overall solvency, and leave it at that. 

But, like I said, I hope they make it. It's bad for the industry for companies to fold and I don't want any of my buddies getting screwed.

By the way, why are you all jumping my shuff about this? I didn't knock off someone else's product and get called on it. Heck, I didn't even start the thread...

Anyone else care to drag this thread on?


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## Flaco

Ish said:


> k dum as, see below:
> 
> (you're awfully late to the party, but at least you're here, I guess.)
> 
> Some points to ponder:
> 
> Another thing I find amazing is the whole premise of the YouTube address. Forget the whole amateurishness of it. If you listen to his little video, he tries to make it sound like getting threatened with a suit and having to settle is a good thing. Not to mention the positive spin he put on eliminating the entire product line of one of his brands - all while spending a large amount of $ (based on the average cost to design and build a boat mold) on R&D for an original design.
> 
> He makes it sound like this whole lawsuit mess was a great way to make money and actually come out ahead. He sounds like another "campaigner" I've grown very tired of. (sorry flaco, just sayin'.)
> 
> Ask any other manufacturer if they see potential lawsuits as a good thing, or if they want this happeneing to them.
> 
> It's insulting to the audience because he assumes they are stupid enough to buy it. I'd have a lot more respect for them if he just came out and admitted what they did, said that they did it because they thought HB was gone, and in hindsight it was a mistake. He could mention the other brands to reassure potential customers of their overall solvency, and leave it at that.
> 
> But, like I said, I hope they make it. It's bad for the industry for companies to fold and I don't want any of my buddies getting screwed.
> 
> By the way, why are you all jumping my shuff about this? I didn't knock off someone else's product and get called on it. Heck, I didn't even start the thread...
> 
> Anyone else care to drag this thread on?


As usual, no reason to be sorry. I really don't think that we disagree on this. As I said, I was not trying to "defend" BT, but trying to point out the other side. Your points are well taken. I would never argue against being forthright. I would have respected them more too. I love my BT but I undertand the oposing viewpoint and really don't see any reason to take it personally.


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## Gigabite285

If you read the conclusion following the settlement written by Hell's Bay, it states that they were:

"elated with the results of the outcome which included Hell's Bay receiving 
monetary compensation."
(see http://www.hellsbayboatworks.com/pdf/HellsBay_Beavertail.pdf)

The president of Beavertail, in his YouTube video, stated that Beavertail was happy because Hell's Bay paid compensation to Beavertail.

So both companies claim to be happy because the other enemy gave them a compensation.

Either there was a mutual payoff, or somebody is lying. I choose the latter.

And seriously, everyone here brings some sort of positive contribution to this forum. You guys shouldn't be calling each other stupid and constantly bickering about who is the smartest/dumbest. We are all here because we love to fly fish, and we should be using this forum to share stories and learn new things, not to insult each other.


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## Stuart

Ish is cool. He definitely has more mad fly fishing skillz than I do. I could probably outdo him with a Curado. :wink: I do have to question if he is in the witness protection program with all the blacked out faces in his picture posts.


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## Ish

I think that BT/HB is a great little hull (I even helped one of my buddies in FL decide that it was the right boat for him) and I wish the company no ill will. I just was amused at their response to the whole thing and the comments it's generated. That's why I come here.

Flaco, I can't wait to stand on the front of yours! 

Gig, I don't think I called anyone stupid or dumb, and definitely didn't mean to insult anyone. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I will gladly apologize. The sarcastic comments are only made to try to cause a chuckle. 

Maybe we need a sarcasm emoticon...nah, we have enough of those stupid things. Make some sarcastic comments to me and see how interesting it gets... :smile:

Dr. Savage, no witness protection issues. I'm just real ugly and want to spare you the pain.!troll!


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## Gigabite285

I didn't mean to target anyone specifically, Ish, I was just making a general observation about what I've been seeing as a whole. Nothing personal directed against anyone. Keep the sarcasm (and the fish pictures) coming.


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## shallowgal

> so they better have a pile cash (which all skiff companies do)


Man, I've been looking for that pile of cash around here for years! Do you know where it is???



> I'm not anti-Beavertail or pro-Hells Bay, but I wonder how long it will take before you start seeing more of this in Texas alone. It's pretty apparent that there are a lot of boats out there that are the obvious knock-offs of some others. Shallow Sport comes to mind as one of those that's been copied more times than I can count.


Hmmmmm.......food for thought. We've never been one to "lawyer up", but I _am_ getting a little tired of people copying our designs then telling customers that they "improved" our design.


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## Gottagofishin

shallowgal said:


> Man, I've been looking for that pile of cash around here for years! Do you know where it is???
> 
> Hmmmmm.......food for thought. We've never been one to "lawyer up", but I _am_ getting a little tired of people copying our designs then telling customers that they "improved" our design.


A Shallowsport poling skiff would be interesting. You guys make great light boats, but they don't track well and can be a little noisy when poling. I'm talking about the 20' skiff.

Something skinny and silent, but maybe with a little wider beam, and a little more HP. Better suited for Texas waters. Maybe a 20' mod v with lowered gunnels and large flat front and rear casting decks. Hull weight less than 700 lbs and hp from 115 to 150. Draft 5" with two people and gear.

Something to consider. That would be the perfect boat for me.


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## shallowgal

*SHallow Sport skiff*

We've definitely kicked the idea of a 16' skiff around. Even have some drawings/plans started. One day it'll probably happen and we'll need all you fly-fisherman's expert advice on the design.


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## Trout Laguna

I think this is worth it's own thread! But since I have no capacity to act on it, I'll let Shallowgal take the reins if she thinks there's a possibility of it becoming a reality.

I can only say, that we have owned a shallow sport in the past with casting platforms, but it was excruciating to pole. Wind and Weight combined could make it impossible to make anywhere not with the wind. I which didn't bother me, just had to pick your spots more carefully. But if you could somehow mate(sp?) the weight and smooth ride of the HB to the shallow water hole shot and easy on/easy off features of the shallow sport, but do it for the price of beavertail, you'd really have something. I think the price of an HB is what keeps them from being more popular. Same too for the full size SS, which after we put an engine, raised console, and aluminum work on it, was right around $40K.



shallowgal said:


> We've definitely kicked the idea of a 16' skiff around. Even have some drawings/plans started. One day it'll probably happen and we'll need all you fly-fisherman's expert advice on the design.


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## Ish

Gottagofishin said:


> Hull weight ess than 700 lbs and hp from 115 to 150. Draft 5" with two people and gear.


Gotta disagree...that would be a pig to pole. 700 lbs. and a 150 on a TX poling skiff is too much.

If you want it to compete with the tech poling skiffs, it needs to be max 400-500 lbs. and hp in the range of 40-60 or 70, 90 at the very most.

Just as important is the beam. It can't be a barge like most of the current TX boats.


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