# Help with Long Casting



## Beeracuda (Mar 24, 2006)

I have been trying to teach myself out to long cast for about 8 months. I have a 12' surf rod with a Diawa 50 reel. I have practiced the beach cast, but most times I wade out and try the "pendulum cast". There is an out swing and in swing. If I am reading the book correctly, the rod should load on the inswing? I can't get this concept. I have been loading the rod on the out swing and letting it fly. It does not fly very far, and usually end up with a rats nest. I think (know) I am practicing bad habits. Would someone be willing to meet with me and teach me the correct way? Or perhaps someone can point me in the right direction to improve my delivery. I have visited Breakaway's site, done the Google search, but I can't really tell much from the free videos and gone about as far as I can with written instructions. I live in Houston and on West Galveston island most weekends.


----------



## REPOFISH (Jul 19, 2004)

www.breakawayusa.com

that should solve all of your problems. Send Nickaway a PM and he will be happy to help you. Great guy.


----------



## Arlon (Feb 8, 2005)

What 12ft surf rod? How is it zoned action wise? If it's like a harrington, just get yourself a kayak because it will never be a pendulum caster. What kind of guides are on it, how are they spaced? Big tall first guide is really important in my opinion for a reel that has a tall wide spool. Line starts slapping/wrapping as it comes off the spool if the first guide is too small for the reel. A rod for casting heavy weight with a big reel/line also needs a really stiff but section so it doesn't flop like a noodle. Some of the best casting (but ugliest) rods I've seen used 3' of aluminum pipe for a sleeve over the but of the blank. Really helps transmit power from the arms to the rod. The faster the action, the more forgiving the rod up to a point. The old fast action fenwick glass rods where very forgiving rods. Bait had to hit the water on the back cast to backlash one of those. Stiff actionless rods like a harrington 552 can backlash just by looking at them wrong. 

As to the reel, which model 50? I think some 50's like the SLX50 might just be a decent casting reel while an slt50 wouldn't cast across the street very well. What sinker weight are you casting? How big is the bait? what style of sinker? What kind (brand, test) of line are you using? How long/heavy is your sock leader?

Lot of variables that need to get matched up. A 12' slow stiff rod made for chunking 2lbs of lead and half a mullet will be impossible to control with 6oz and a small bait. Little things like using a squirt bottle of water to wet (lubricate) the line before casting can help a lot (fewer tangles and no scorched thumps). Distance between sinker and bait make a difference, how you bait the hook (cast a half mullet hooked tail first then try the other hooked half head first..). Type of terminal rig will make a difference too. I like a short fish finder where my bait is within 18" of the sinker with another 18" for the sinker to run on. Line type can make a difference too. I rellly liked the old dull finish stren. The glossy finished lines tended to burn thumbs and guides more than the dull lines. Never used a braided line. 

My favorite bigger reels are the penn 350 (modified with an al. spool and teflon bearings, penn 980 (discontinued classic, still have 3 of them) and the all time classic 550 hs jigmasters. Any spooled with 30lb mono and enough 60lb shock leader to get about 6 wraps on the spool. I liked the penns because they where easier to tune for casting. No clue what can be done to adjust the casting of a diawa (heavy/light oil, bearings, lighter spools, etc.).

Distance isn't always everything either. I've cought a few pretty decent fish in knee deep water 20 ft from the shore. I always look for small holes right up close to the beach line and drop one line right there. You would be surprised how many fish you wade past trying to get a line off the 2nd and 3rd bars. If you have 3 rods, try dropping one bait in each gut rather than trying to get all them as close to Cuba as you can. 

Also put in some practice time with a 6oz sinker and a foot of orange (so you can see where it's going) ribbon tied onto it (no bait). Tighten the bearings down and don't try for a grandslam on the first cast. Work up to it in controlled steps. Work up the power slowly and back off the spool tension so you can learn your thumbs limits. Thumb gets smarter and stronger relative to the number of casts it experiences. Don't forget the squirt bottle of water if you practice with a dry line. Dry line will burn itself and your thumb rather quickly. Once you start to get the thumb and arms coordinated with nothing much more than lead, then start adding a small bait and work your way up. If you have several rods, set one of them up for practice after you have the others out in the water. 

Sorry for rambling, it's been a rather slow day..


----------



## Beeracuda (Mar 24, 2006)

Arlon, 

Thanks for responding. You make valid points, but you stumped me on the first question. 

Sincerely, 

B


----------



## Arlon (Feb 8, 2005)

Beeracuda said:


> Arlon,
> 
> Thanks for responding. You make valid points, but you stumped me on the first question.
> 
> ...


What 12' surf rod? What brand, what action, what weight is it designed to cast, what kind of guides does it have, is it a $39.95 diawa, old calcutta cane pole, a vintage fenwick, graphite, graphite/glass, ugly-stik???? 12' surf rod could be anything from a telephone pole to a fly rod, each with different casting properties and requirements for putting togather a balanced outfit. It just might help someone give you ideas if they know exactly what you are trying to use.


----------



## Lou (May 22, 2004)

*Casting*

Hello Beeracuda, To answer most of your concerns. We need to know exasctly what tackle you are trying to longcast, brand of rod, which diawa reel 50, line weight, sinker weight, bait size, etc. AND then we need to know ,, what do you expect? Distance? 
TOO much weight eliminates the pendelum benefits. 
BUT, one major mis-conception is the loading of the rod. The pendelum swing it's self does not load the rod! If done right! The pendelum is to position the bait/weight in a better position to start your cast.
A too heavy of weight/bait is not casted but lobbed. There are very few rods on the market that can sustain a true pendelum cast. Breakaway stuff can! 
Ugly sticks will come apart. The Ocean Masters do a fair job but have their limits. American RodSmiths do fair, All of these are GOOd fishing rods, but not pendelum rods. 
The power generated in a pendelum cast is monsterous. I have pictures of a rod that you can only bend the butt section about 4 inches with your hands, but during a pendelum cast the same rod butt is bent over a foot.
Learning the basics of the pendelum and knowing what can be accompished will IMPROVE your every day fishing/casting.
Having said all that, the normal set up of surf fishing 30 lb line, off the shelf rod, untuned reel, fish finder leader, mullet, and sand digger weight,,,,,
a good cast into the wind will be 100 yards! agreat cast will be in the 125 range and a true 150 yardds means you should be teaching me.
good luck and email me, maybe we can meet some time. Lou


----------



## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

For anyone that don't know. 
Big Lou has a dozen national champion longcaster titles and one world champion title.
Thats so you'll know, he knows what he's talking about.


----------



## Arlon (Feb 8, 2005)

gundoctor said:


> For anyone that don't know.
> Big Lou has a dozen national champion longcaster titles and one world champion title.
> Thats so you'll know, he knows what he's talking about.


I'm no tournament caster but I have tossed my fair share of mullet heads... 
Lou, is a full pendulum cast practicle or even possible with a "fishing rig"? 
I used a semi pendulum style cast when I used to fish a lot. In those days a hundred yard cast with bait was something I could have been proud of...

By fishing I don't mean a 6oz castmaster, I mean 6-8oz of lead and a mullet head. I don't know too many people with a thumb that could hold an 8oz weight and bait for that style of casting. I've never seen anyone cast REAL bait 125 yards. What kind of reel does it take to do that? I've been beach fishing with the wrong crowd I guess..

How are the ferrules on the breakaway rods set up to handle the stress of a full pendulum cast? I used to use some LCI graphite rods but gave up after cracking several ferrules that where triple wrapped.. Now my favorite is an old "contender" blank (went out of business before their time) that has a very stiff graphite but section and an S-glass tip. Since I sold the panga, I guess I'll be breaking all the old surf fishing tackle out again.. Arlon


----------



## Lou (May 22, 2004)

*Hey*

As practical???? Depends on application. But to hold the reel, no problem. The Hawaiians cast 6/0 wides 100 lb line 10 oz over 100 yards consistantly. 4/0 with 60 line 400 plus and jigmasters with 40 lb over 550 feet. 
The older Breakaway ferrules were tip over and I have only seen a couple break one of those was not wrapped. 
good luck Lou


----------



## Arlon (Feb 8, 2005)

What are they using for rods to cast that heavy stuff (6/0 and 100lb)? That's some pretty serious casting in my book.


----------



## Lou (May 22, 2004)

*Rods*

Allstar, Jeff Andrews both no longer available. Then you have rods coming in from Australia, New Zealand, and of course the Asian market, China etc.
Old style Fenwick 16810, or hybred 50 class trolling blanks attached/mated to butts of bamboo (old school) And I am sure there are others. 
And ,, yes these guys are impressive. 
Casting distances have moved ahead considerably since the mid eightie.
Just like hunting/shooting guns, fishing/casting rods have become specialized.


----------



## Beeracuda (Mar 24, 2006)

I was at the dentist all day yesterday. What a drag! Sorry if I offend anyone but I have to believe in order to be a dentist, you got to have a (hidden) mean streak in you. Either you were bullied as a kid, or the bully that never gave it up. I always think of Steve Martin in the movie "Little Shop of Horrors". Big smile as he drills you unmercifully, and then you pay him for it. Thank you. May I have another. But I digress. 

I use an off the rack Fishing Tacle Unlimited 12' two piece heavy action rod rated 2-8ozs. The Diawa is a baitcaster without the metal piece that moves back & forth. 30lb suffix line, 3' steel leader, 3-4 oz spider weight with cut bait about the same size. I have had some luck and fun with this set up, but watching those birds working just beyond has my blood pumping. 

I have snapped that practice sinker off many times. I find it almost every time. Off the ground I can toss it about 50-60 yards. Standing in the surf, it can't be that far. I'm just trying to improve my distance and take it to the next level, and I feel I have gone about as far as I can reading a book and practicing on my own.


----------



## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

I don't own one myself, but a friend of mine let me cast his Breakaway rod and Penn 535 combo and it was not even comparable to my 10' AR. The Breakaway made a huge difference.


----------



## Brian F. (Jul 22, 2005)

Beer,

I highly recommend that you get together with someone who can show you the right techniques and I can't think of anyone better to do so than Big Lou and his friend, Jerry V. The books and video are great but nothing like seeing it in person, watching how the rod loads as the sinker travels in a specific path, where to emphasize and maximize your energy, etc. Both of these guys have been here to Hawaii over the years for demos and some relaxed fishing and many have benefited from the experience, info and helpful hints they shared during their brief visits.

You asked about the tackle that many of us here in Hawaii use but as Lou points out, it runs the full range from lowest of the low tech to the latest space age graphite. Not everyone is able to cast like how he mentions but in the right hands, even bamboo and fiberglass can get those distances. Maybe what the new gear has done is make it possible for more to do better but I notice the guys with really good technique can throw anything far, if they really need to.

I guess in my rambling all I really mean to say is learn the right technique for you, make sure your gear is matched and balanced to what you're trying to do and most of all, take up Lou's offer to get together!

PS. Just for the record, I can't get those kinds of distances with the heavier stuff yet so that's why I hang around Big Lou!

Aloha!
Brian F.


----------



## ronnie collins (May 21, 2004)

BumRun in August sounds like a good time meet a some good people and a boat load of different rods and reels. thats my short weekend off, so i should be there GD.


----------



## Arlon (Feb 8, 2005)

3-4oz with similar bait seems like a chore in itself for that spool weight and line weight. I'd try 6oz "bullet style weights". For real distance, you need twice as much lead as bait. 
Use about 20' of 50-60lb shock leader and be sure the knot is wound onto the side of the spool NOT under your thumb! If you are doing it right, that 30lb will snap off 4-6oz sinkers about every other cast. If Lou was offering some coaching and free thumb time. I'd jump on that like a duck on a june bug. I'd pester him until he met me on the beach or some ball field one afternoon. 10 minutes with someone that knows what they are doing (casting and reel/tackle tuning) will have you casting better than reading a book 100 times over.. Arlon


----------



## DANO (May 23, 2005)

Barracuda, Big Lou is the person that can help you the most, in Texas He is the Legend in Distance Casting ! These Gents are right in what they type,.. I myself own several Fenwicks, 1689's, 1589's and 1389's they are a Casters Dream in my book. Start with what you have and work your way up, never become frustrated or disappointed with your casts,... it all comes with time, remember We are Fishermen and Patience is what We need when Surf Casting. The well "trained" thumb will come into play as time goes by,....Try www,Sportscast USA.com this is also a very informative Board for casting.
I have a "virgin" Fenwick SU1689 14ft that will be built for casting competition within the next week, I will be casting a ABU 6500 CT3 Blue Yonder reel that has been Magged and ceramic bearings added, custom built by www.HatterasOutfitters.com. Barracuda,... You Can Do IT !!!

Tight Lines and Full Spools;
DANO


----------



## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

Let me throw my 2 cents into this discussion, and that may be all it's worth. I think surf fishermen get carried away with casting distance and lose sight of what we're there for, that's to catch fish and have fun doing it. Sure, you can get extra yardage out of the super stiff competition rods as well as the heavy weight Ocean Masters and American Rodsmiths, but what do they do to the fight of the fish? Unless you're catching large sharks, chances are, you won't even feel the fish through the rod. Last winter, I caught a nice redfish on someone else's extra heavy Ocean Master. I might as well have been using a handline for all the sport there was. Personally, I much prefer to scale down my rods to medium and medium light actions and I actually enjoy fighting the fish I catch. I also don't think I give up that much casting distance. By using quality rods and reels, tuned the best I can, and by using the best techniques and terminal gear I can come up with, I still get casts between 80 and 100 yards. For any of you who read these posts regularly, you know I catch more than my share of fish out there. Even if I caught half as many fish, I would still scale down my tackle to enjoy better fights from the fish I do catch.


----------



## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

Bigfost has a very valid point and its worth more than just 2 cents.
I have several OM 12ft rods. Some are the heavy action model(12SC) and some are the medium action model(12SCM). With my strength and casting skill, I GET BETTER CASTING DISTANCE OUT OF MY 12SCM MEDIUM ACTION RODS THAN I DO WITH MY 12SC HEAVY ACTION RODS. 
People like Lou put so much power into a cast that they would bend a 4X4 fence post, so they need a broom handle stiff rod to take full advantage of what they can do. Us lessor casters don't have all that power, so we need something we can bend. Distance is all about loading the rod and if its too stiff for you to bend/load right, you ain't going to get the distance.
I may be wrong about this, but I think that casting (expecially the pendulumn cast and uni cast) puts a hell of a lot more stress on a rod than fighting any fish ever would. So get a surffrod that you can cast, then how it fights a fish will take care of its self. This don't apply to boat rods and heavy line.

Also as Bigfost said, the medium weight rod is much more fun to fight a fish with.


----------



## ronnie collins (May 21, 2004)

Thats why i like my 15' ugly sticks. for endurance you can beat them for my 2 cents. i do enjoy a fight on them. but then sometimes like the winter fishing. Mr.Bill and me got to put the waders on and take the cold water under the arm pits off and on, while lou doesn't even gets his tennises wet and still gets it out there farther then we can wade and throw. makes you want to throw a bucket of water on him from time to time, of cousre that might get you hurt. LOL (messing with you lou)


----------



## word-doctor (Sep 20, 2005)

*one other site...*

Try reading up here, with Gowge and the boyz. They tend to focus more on casting to fish (v. casting for distance). The boyz on the Emerald Isle have some diagrams and explanations that have helped me visualize what's supposed to be happening.

Right now I'm using a magged Penn 350 on a truly ugly homemade 10'er that I bought secondhand in Dickinson (Freddie Morgan!). The reel has the same drags as a 209 (155 size), but those are legit 20# class.

But remember the advice about fishing here, there and everywhere--I've actually done more casting on Friendswood's soccer practice field this year than I've fished. And that's sad.


----------



## Lou (May 22, 2004)

*Casting*

One thing every one should pay attention to,,,,,,
You do not have to cast a long ways to catch fish. BUT there are days that unless you can cast a long ways,,, you will not catch anything.
The point being, learn to cast!!!! Then you can use your talent to best fit your needs.
For a demo, I take a 6 foot oak broom stick clamp on an Abu reel , tape on a home made tip/eye and cast it over one hundred yards.
If you learn to cast, you can cast light, medium, heavy etc.


----------



## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

This is my 2 cents worth,,,,,,,Listen to Lou and Gun doc,,,,,,, with what Lou has taught alot of us on casting and the Doc on how to spruce up a reel,,,especially jigmasters,,,thanks again Doc,,,I have 3 500's and 1 squidder all newelled and magged,,,,,how sweet they are,,,, These guys are the ones to listen to.
Thanks Lou and Doc
Jdub


----------



## Surffishwant2B (May 22, 2004)

I have found out that the new cut rate all glass one pice surf casting rods cast very well, they have a fast tip with a solid but section and I can cast them better than my Harringtons, I have been told they were maid like a Breakaway rod. And I also understand you can get blanks for coustom rods. I have learned a lot from this site on casting and thank all the guys with the info


----------



## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

Casting, man that's a subject that will bring fisherman out of the woodwork! Especially surf fisherman. I have a 12' ugly stick, a 12' american rodsmith, a couple of 10' one Americanrodsmith and one Diawa Eliminator,and some assorted whatevers. The AMRs are stiff and don't let you feel the fish as much as the Eliminator or ugly stick, they do however do pull sinkers up and get them back to the beach without too much effort, and cast a big weight/bait well. Casting is about being smooth,...tighten your cast control(side of the reel knob) and work up to longer casts(by backing off the knob) as your thumb gets educated. Whatever you cast tackle wise, you have to be smooth. Casting is like Zen, and really fun.


----------



## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

Jdub_54 said:


> This is my 2 cents worth,,,,,,,Listen to Lou and Gun doc,,,,,,, with what Lou has taught alot of us on casting and the Doc on how to spruce up a reel,,,especially jigmasters,,,thanks again Doc,,,I have 3 500's and 1 squidder all newelled and magged,,,,,how sweet they are,,,, These guys are the ones to listen to.
> Thanks Lou and Doc
> Jdub


Whoa, you are giving me way too much credit. While I have learned a few things about reels, Lou has forgot more than I'll ever know about tuning them.


----------



## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

gundoctor said:


> Whoa, you are giving me way too much credit. While I have learned a few things about reels, Lou has forgot more than I'll ever know about tuning them.


Ok,,,both of yuns are great,,,,,and you took the time to teach me,,,


----------



## Beeracuda (Mar 24, 2006)

Thank you Screaming Reel for meeting with me this weekend, I really appreciate the leaders, and showing me the pendelum cast. I could not visualize it until I saw it. 

I received several other offers to assist me, and for that, I am grateful. This board is a tremendous forum, and will try to make the Bumrun in August. Again, thank you, thank you, thank you. I look forward to meeting all of you.


----------



## scm (Apr 27, 2006)

Beeracuda- Ask Big Lou About Casting Over The Astrodome.


----------



## Beeracuda (Mar 24, 2006)

Over the Astrodome? I'd like to hear that one.


----------



## Screeminreel (Jun 2, 2004)

No problems on the leaders and on what little I was able to show ya. I hope it helps some, but like I mentioned, it is a progressive thing.

hope ya can make the Run it has generally been a pretty decent event. 

Later,
SR


----------



## scm (Apr 27, 2006)

That's Been Awhile Back. I Was Hoping To Hear About It Again From Lou. I Used To Fish The Flagship Pier Along Time Ago And Fished Along Side Lou A Couple Of Times. I Can Toss A Bait, But Remember Lou Reeeeaally Tossing A Bait.


----------

