# game warden vs county commisoner



## fishhawkxxx (Jul 7, 2012)

not sure if this is the right place to post this but here it is for now.There is a trial coming up where a un-uniformed g.w. came upon this commisioners lease and apparently pulled his gun on commisioners son,unbeknown to g.w. Mr. commisioner saw this and dis-armed the g.w.! There was quite a stand off as other law officials arrived on scene before they surrendered to authorities.
The commisioners aliby is the g.w. had no uniform and pulled a gun on his son!
What would you do? 
This happened in Gilmer texas.....stay tuned!!! this is gonna be good!


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> What would you do?


There isn't enough information in what you posted for anyone to say what they would do.

TH


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## tokavi (May 6, 2006)

Trouthunter said:


> There isn't enough information in what you posted for anyone to say what they would do.
> 
> TH


I agree with Trouthunter


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## Bharvey (Mar 24, 2013)

Rule in favor of the son. I don't care if the Game Warden recited his oath first, if he's not in uniform and pulls a gun on me it's fair game to assume the guy has bad intentions. Law Enforcement need to realize that it doesn't take much to recreate a badge, ID, or even uniforms. Any criminal can point a gun at you and yell "Police!" This happens all of the time in larger cities. Thugs dress up like officers, or utility workers, etc... KNock on people's doors and rob them. Even if the Game Warden yelled "Game Warden!" I think the commissioner's son did the right thing. Was this in Texas? There is actually a statute in Texas law that says that a civilian is justified in using force against a law enforcement officer should the civilian feel that the LEO is using or about to use uneccessary deadly force against him/her. I think this statute says it "in-a-nutshell."

"_Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE._
_..._
_(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:_
_(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and_
_(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary."_


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## boom! (Jul 10, 2004)

http://www.news-journal.com/news/lo...cle_160e4e94-dd59-53e6-beb5-d71dd17c59bb.html

A Texas game warden was conducting a routine patrol of Sabine River bottoms on an all-terrain vehicle Saturday when he was held at gunpoint by an Uphsur County commissioner and his son, said Texas Parks and Wildlife Capt. Quint Balkom on Monday.
Upshur County Pct. 3 Commissioner Lloyd Crabtree, 51, and his son, Todd, 28, were taken into custody and booked into jail on charges of aggravated assault against a public servant after officers from surrounding law enforcement agencies responded to a call for help from game warden Shane Bailey â€" who called 911 after he had been disarmed at gunpoint by the two men, Balkom said. He declined to comment on the types of firearms used by the Crabtrees.
â€œHe (Bailey) was put into a very bad position by the Crabtrees,â€ Balkom said. â€œIt is accurate the lives of several law enforcement officers were threatened with firearms during the incident.â€
Officers from the Texas Department of Public Safety, Upshur County Sheriffâ€™s Department and Big Sandy Police joined Texas Parks and Wildlife officers in answering the game wardenâ€™s call for help. â€œEven the Tyler State Park police responded,â€ he said.
Bailey was conducting routine operations when he was threatened, Balkom said. â€œWe use different patrol tactics. We use all-terrain vehicles, horseback. That day, he used an ATV.â€
Upshur County District Attorney Billy Byrd said Balkom â€œhad been on multiple properties all day, looking at all sorts of properties. He didnâ€™t know who the land belonged to.â€
The incident occurred on a wooded tract owned by Lloyd Crabtree that abuts the Sabine River south of Big Sandy, Byrd said.
The Crabtrees were released Sunday morning from the Upshur County Jail after posting separate $40,000 property bonds.
Lloyd Crabtree said Monday he was in the process of hiring an attorney.
â€œAs soon as I do, if heâ€™ll let me talk, I will tell my side of the story,â€ Crabtree said, declining to comment in the meantime.
Balkom said Bailey was assigned to Upshur County during the summer after serving about four years with the parks and wildlife department.
Bailey is off duty pending the outcome of the investigation, Balkom said.
â€œAs always, we allow our people time to decompress following an incident like that,â€ the captain said. â€œIt is a normal for an employee to have a leave of absence following critical incidents.â€
An investigation is being conducted by Texas Rangers and internal affairs officers of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.
â€œWe are aware at this point what occurred and how it occurred and itâ€™s very serious,â€ Byrd said. â€œBy no means was this a mistake, an accident. It was what we believe to be an intentional act. Arrests were made and the investigation is ongoing. It will be treated like any other crime would be due to the serious nature of offense.â€
Byrd and Balkom confirmed further charges were possible.
In more than a decade of service, Balkom said, Saturdayâ€™s incident was a first.
â€œWeâ€™ve had armed events, itâ€™s just the people involved are more surprising,â€ he said.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

http://www.news-journal.com/news/po...cle_cd8ac9b4-0209-5ec3-91e6-43d2ccdc8000.html
Doesn't say anything about the wardens attire. EX commissioner also.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Bharvey said:


> Rule in favor of the son. I don't care if the Game Warden recited his oath first, if he's not in uniform and pulls a gun on me it's fair game to assume the guy has bad intentions. Law Enforcement need to realize that it doesn't take much to recreate a badge, ID, or even uniforms. Any criminal can point a gun at you and yell "Police!" This happens all of the time in larger cities. Thugs dress up like officers, or utility workers, etc... KNock on people's doors and rob them. Even if the Game Warden yelled "Game Warden!" I think the commissioner's son did the right thing. Was this in Texas? There is actually a statute in Texas law that says that a civilian is justified in using force against a law enforcement officer should the civilian feel that the LEO is using or about to use uneccessary deadly force against him/her. I think this statute says it "in-a-nutshell."
> 
> "_Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE._
> _..._
> ...


You're jumping to conclusions. Neither of the 2 articles posted stated the wardens attire or the ENTIRE story from both sides.


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## Bharvey (Mar 24, 2013)

http://www.news-journal.com/news/lo...cle_160e4e94-dd59-53e6-beb5-d71dd17c59bb.html

Ok the story seems to, not exactly be what the OP had said it was.

By the sounds of it the Game Warden was riding around in his ATV and the Crabtrees must have mistaken him for a poacher or trespasser; that being if the OP's suggestion that the GW was not in uniform.

It's also possible that the Commissioner was just ****** at having a GW on his land and pulled this stunt. We'll see though...

The commissioner and his son have really been tight-lipped about it though...


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## Bharvey (Mar 24, 2013)

spurgersalty said:


> You're jumping to conclusions. Neither of the 2 articles posted stated the wardens attire or the ENTIRE story from both sides.


You're right. My response was to the story the OP gave. After reading a few articles it's obvious the story isn't exacly like the OP put it; most likely just hearsay. It'll be interesting to hear the defendant's side of the story though. Something does seem fishy here though. Supposedly they were making threats against other officers who responded. If this IS the case then there is WAY more to this then just someone thinking they're stopping a poacher or trespasser. Had the father and son believed they were stopping a trespasser on their property they would have laid down their guns and admitted mistake then and there.


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## the hook (Aug 8, 2011)

Not sure, but I've heard of PLENTY of times the CO goes "incognito"....Undercover, whatever...I do not see what bearing that would have...I do see where a bad guy says he's a cop etc too..There is not enough info to form an opinion, imo....just what did Rachel Jeantel see?? Ask her what happened...


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## bearwhiz (Jan 30, 2011)

Once again, someone hearing part of a story and wanting to put the blame on law enforcement.


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## RedXCross (Aug 7, 2005)

One thing fo sho, someone is gonna have a hefty Lawyer bill, already posted dual 40 Large bonds on property. Whew, man puts a dent in the big picture. Stand by for more he said , he said


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## Chunkn' Charlie (Dec 30, 2004)

Yep, that's the East Texas I remember.


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## snapperlicious (Aug 11, 2009)

Crabtree? If he's related to the Crabtree that's messing up our fisheries who cares!


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

the hook said:


> Not sure, but I've heard of PLENTY of times the CO goes "incognito"....Undercover, whatever...I do not see what bearing that would have...I do see where a bad guy says he's a cop etc too..There is not enough info to form an opinion, imo....just what did Rachel Jeantel see?? Ask her what happened...


How can it not have any bearing? Put yourself in a land owner's shoes: 
1) You see some guy riding around on an ATV on your property. 
2) You see a uniformed Game Warden riding around on an ATV on your property.

^How many Texans would confront #1 at gunpoint? Probably quite a few. 
^How many Texans would confront #2 at gunpoint? Not many.

Hopefully the facts will come out and we'll get a bit more info. Could be interesting.


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## the hook (Aug 8, 2011)

See the 1st 2 words?? I'm just saying that there are a lot of times a CO "may" be out of uniform....I HAVE seen them hunting and fishing right alongside other sportsmen...This case, imo, does not have enough info....Do you have the right to "draw down" on everyone on your property?? I know they SOULD NOT be there, but they are...


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## Backwater1 (Apr 25, 2013)

justletmein said:


> How can it not have any bearing? Put yourself in a land owner's shoes:
> 1) You see some guy riding around on an ATV on your property.
> 2) You see a uniformed Game Warden riding around on an ATV on your property.
> 
> ...


I would hope not many would. Its one thing to defend yourself and your property. Its another to wave a gun in anybody's face just because they stepped foot on your property, especially in rural areas where property lines are not easily distinguished.


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## str0sfan01 (Apr 11, 2011)

The Crabtrees dont have the best reputation in that area. They have been known to associate with the Republic of Texas group. I lived not too from there for a while. Id bet theres more to this story than thats been revealed.


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## Brad Beaulieu (May 10, 2006)

Bharvey said:


> Rule in favor of the son. I don't care if the Game Warden recited his oath first, if he's not in uniform and pulls a gun on me it's fair game to assume the guy has bad intentions. Law Enforcement need to realize that it doesn't take much to recreate a badge, ID, or even uniforms. Any criminal can point a gun at you and yell "Police!" This happens all of the time in larger cities. Thugs dress up like officers, or utility workers, etc... KNock on people's doors and rob them. Even if the Game Warden yelled "Game Warden!" I think the commissioner's son did the right thing. Was this in Texas? There is actually a statute in Texas law that says that a civilian is justified in using force against a law enforcement officer should the civilian feel that the LEO is using or about to use uneccessary deadly force against him/her. I think this statute says it "in-a-nutshell."
> 
> "_Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE._
> _..._
> ...


Your info doesn't match the stature you pasted. It does not allow for the use of deadly force. And your statute only applies to searches.


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

Even if he was out of uniform you can bet chur arse he had his badge... If they did mistake him for a poacher it would only take a second for him to show it and defuse the situation. These dudes are toast!!!


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## uncle dave (Jul 27, 2008)

agree with you RR.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

So this happened last October and a Grand Jury indicted them in January.



> Former Pct. 3 Commissioner Lloyd Crabtree, 51, and his son, Todd Crabtree, 28, were being held late Friday in the Upshur County Jail under bonds totaling $1.5 million each on charges including first-degree counts of aggravated assault on a police officer.


Turn out the lights, the party is over for these two.

TH


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Trouthunter said:


> So this happened last October and a Grand Jury indicted them in January.
> 
> Turn out the lights, the party is over for these two.
> 
> TH


The article was from Friday, May 24 TH
I'm still waiting on more to be disclosed.


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## Backwater1 (Apr 25, 2013)

spurgersalty said:


> The article was from Friday, May 24 TH
> I'm still waiting on more to be disclosed.


No it wasn't. The article was from October 2012.

"Posted: Tuesday, October 9, 2012 4:00 am"

It was updated in May 2013.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Backwater1 said:


> No it wasn't. The article was from October 2012.
> 
> "Posted: Tuesday, October 9, 2012 4:00 am"
> 
> It was updated in May 2013.


I was referencing the link in post #5. Which one are you referencin?


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> Posted: Saturday, January 26, 2013 4:00 am | _ Updated: 9:19 am, Fri Jun 28, 2013. _




TH


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Your link lol.

TH


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Trouthunter said:


> Your link lol.
> 
> TH


:headknock:hwell::redface:


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## Backwater1 (Apr 25, 2013)

spurgersalty said:


> I was referencing the link in post #5. Which one are you referencin?


Post #5

http://www.news-journal.com/news/lo...cle_160e4e94-dd59-53e6-beb5-d71dd17c59bb.html

"Posted: Tuesday, October 9, 2012 4:00 am | _Updated: 2:45 pm, Fri May 24, 2013."_

If the whole miscommunication occurred 9 months ago and they are still going through with the trial, then there is alot more to the story.


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## Last Drift (Jun 30, 2009)

*Who is telling the truth?*

Found this, if this is true these guy in deep #$%>

More charges could be filed after game warden held at gun point

UPSHUR COUNTY, TX (KLTV) - More charges could be coming in the case of an East Texas county commissioner who allegedly held a state game warden at gun point.

On Saturday, Upshur County Precinct 3 Commissioner Lloyd Allen Crabtree and his son, Todd Allen Crabtree, were booked into the Upshur County Jail on aggravated assault against a public servant charges. They bonded out of jail on Sunday. The Upshur County District Attorney said more arrests could possibly be made in the case.

On a property near Big Sandy, multiple law enforcement agencies were called to the scene where State Game Warden Shane Bailey had been disarmed and held at gun point.

"There were several threats made during the time he was disarmed," said Upshur County District Attorney Billy Byrd.

Byrd said the game warden was in uniform and driving a marked vehicle. He said there was no question as to who the game warden was or what he was doing on the property

"In this particular case, any hunting violations that this game warden was looking for, he had the absolute right [to be there]. Based on what the investigation has shown thus far, he did absolutely nothing wrong on October 6," said Byrd.

Commissioner Lloyd Crabtree and his son were jailed on aggravated assault against a public servant charges. They both bonded out of jail 14 hours later. Crabtree was not in his office Monday afternoon to tell his side of the story.

"Any time a peace officer in the State of Texas is threatened, their life is threatened, if they're disarmed... that is a very serious crime. I don't care who it is that commits that against a peace officer," said Byrd.

Byrd said the incident is being investigated by the Texas Rangers with assistance from the game warden's office. He said if that investigation shows more charges are warranted, then they will be brought forward.

"In this particular case, this was very serious. Multiple people could have been shot or killed that evening, and we're very fortunate that it ended the way it did. This is a very serious crime and we are treating it as such," said Byrd.

Saturday, a family member said the Crabtrees were just protecting their home. However, authorities said game wardens have the right to search private property, without warrant, if they believe hunting or fishing is occurring there.

Copyright 2012 KLTV. All rights reserved.


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## Bharvey (Mar 24, 2013)

Brad Beaulieu said:


> Your info doesn't match the stature you pasted. It does not allow for the use of deadly force. And your statute only applies to searches.


This response was in response to the story the OP gave so I acknowledge that it is not the right statute for the actual incident. However, if you read again you'll see the info the OP gave does match the statute. According to what the OP stated, the Game Warden pulled his gun first in order to arrest the son and then the father disarmed the Game Warden (Of Course we know now that may not have been the case.) IF you read the statutes it says that if the officer uses greater force than necessary to arrest or search you then you are justified in using "force" to resist. I never claimed that it's justified to use deadly force. I said if the officer uses unecessary deadly force (as what was stated by the OP)


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## Bharvey (Mar 24, 2013)

"_Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE._
_..._
_(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search *is justified:*_
_(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use *greater force than necessary* to make the *arrest* or s*earch*; and_
_(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary."_


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## bluefin (Aug 16, 2005)

Bharvey said:


> "_Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE._
> _..._
> _(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search *is justified:*_
> _(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use *greater force than necessary* to make the *arrest* or s*earch*; and_
> _(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary."_


_*is justified - dude's a game warden. *Want a list of 'justified'?_
_1. We'll start with suspicion_
_2. _

_*greater force than necessary* to make the *arrest* or s*earch -*_
_Crabtree is a Commissioner. That in itself should make him more liable to knowing the laws and of a game warden's jurisdiction._


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

bluefin said:


> _*is justified - dude's a game warden. *Want a list of 'justified'?_
> _1. We'll start with suspicion_
> _2. _
> 
> ...


You do realize the statute he quoted is a citizens right to self defense against a peace officer and the "is justified" part justifies a CITIZENS right to defend himself against a peace officer(Game Warden in this instance). 
So throw away your list because you're confused.:tongue:
And the last part is the reasoning behind why we have the right to defense against "greater force than necessary to make the arrest". AKA...."police brutality".
Read "section(1)" in his post again.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

spurgersalty said:


> You do realize the statute he quoted is a citizens right to self defense against a peace officer and the "is justified" part justifies a CITIZENS right to defend himself against a peace officer(Game Warden in this instance).
> So throw away your list because you're confused.:tongue:
> And the last part is the reasoning behind why we have the right to defense against "greater force than necessary to make the arrest". AKA...."police brutality".
> Read "section(1)" in his post again.


^^^this^^^^

I will say that you better have yer dodo straight cause proving this without lots of good reliable citizens as witnesses is gonna be harder than proving you didn't murder Trayvon!!!!


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## djwag94 (Nov 19, 2009)

Interesting.

Upshur County District Attorney Billy Byrd said the game warden was in uniform and driving a marked vehicle. He said there was no question as to who the game warden was or what he was doing on the property.

Crabtree and his son Todd were set for jury trial May 29.

Crabtree attorney Clifton â€œScrappyâ€ Holmes said the case has been continued, and the trial date has not been reset.

June 25th 2013
*Judge recuses herself in case of former Upshur County commissioner. 
GILMER â€" Upshur County 115th District Court Judge Lauren Parish has recused herself from the case of Lloyd Crabtree, who along with his son is accused of holding a game warden at gunpoint.

The order of recusal signed late Monday by Parish states she was excusing herself from the trial because 115th District Court Coordinator Teena Henson may be called to testify as a witness in pretrial matters. The order says the coordinatorâ€™s testimony may be â€œcriticalâ€ to some pretrial matters. Henson previously served as a chief deputy clerk in the district clerkâ€™s office.*

A motion filed by District Attorney Billy Byrd states it was found through text message searches of Crabtreeâ€™s phone that Crabtree had a relationship â€œbeyond friendshipâ€ with an employee in the district clerkâ€™s office. The employee is not named.

The extent of Crabtreeâ€™s alleged relationship with the district clerkâ€™s employee led Byrd to believe motivation existed to potentially tamper with the jury panel.


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## RedXCross (Aug 7, 2005)

[email protected] this is turning into "Fried Green Tomatoes" Crabtree, Obviously gets around, and is doing the two step, this is costing his *** in more ways than one.

First the bonding out price, the lawyer fees for ole Scrappy, possibly his position, and marriage ,if he cares or is still married, yeouch, and possibly jail time. It looks like the State will not back down.


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## Bharvey (Mar 24, 2013)

bluefin said:


> _*is justified - dude's a game warden. *Want a list of 'justified'?_
> _1. We'll start with suspicion_
> _2. _
> 
> ...


Once again. I posted this in response to the OP, who stated that the Game Warden pulled his gun on the son. The OP made it seem as though the Game Warden was not in uniform and was at fault. After reading the articles it doesn't seem that this was the case.

The law says that if an officer uses unnecessary force to arrest or search you BEFORE you offer any resistance then you are justified in the use of force to resist arrest. I'm not sure how to make it any more clear.

Ex: If you're cooperating and the officer pulls a taser on you, or starts to tackle you for no reason then you're justified in using force to resist. It's pretty clear.

I'm not advocating resisting peace officers but simply quoted a law in our own statutes.


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## Bharvey (Mar 24, 2013)

bluefin said:


> _*is justified - dude's a game warden. *Want a list of 'justified'?_
> _1. We'll start with suspicion_
> _2. _
> 
> ...


Aside from that, what does "Knowing the law" have to do with the ability to defend yourself? Why does this idea exist that, because someone knows the law, they are no longer justified in defending themselves? Hypothetically speaking, so what if the Commissioner knew the Game Warden's jurisdiction? As a civilian, if you get stopped by the police, you know their juristiction. That doesn't stop you from being able to defend yourself against unnecessary force. The law is pretty clear and I'm not sure where you're getting confused on it. I've already admitted that with the actual events that are being described in the article do not apply to this law. And once again I orginally responded with this based on the story of the OP which placed fault on the Game Warden for not being in uniform and randomly pulling a gun on someone. (Which we now know is not the true story.) Last, that doesn't change the fact of what I stated earlier about justified force.

Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE.
_..._
_(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search *is justified:*_
_(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use *greater force than necessary* to make the *arrest* or s*earch*; and_
_(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary_


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## Bharvey (Mar 24, 2013)

HydraSports said:


> ^^^this^^^^
> 
> I will say that you better have yer dodo straight cause proving this without lots of good reliable citizens as witnesses is gonna be harder than proving you didn't murder Trayvon!!!!


There's no doubt that it is a long shot. And I'd say that the best chance of proving this would be to have it on security video, have eyewitnesses, and/or have it on the cops dash cam. I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be a difficult case to make, but was just pointing out what the law actually says.


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## bluefin (Aug 16, 2005)

Bharvey said:


> The law says that if an officer uses unnecessary force to arrest or search you BEFORE you offer any resistance then you are justified in the use of force to resist arrest. I'm not sure how to make it any more clear. QUOTE]
> Like all of us, we're reading a lot into what little facts there are. So for BHarvey I'll start with this:
> "A Texas game warden was conducting a routine patrol of Sabine River bottoms on an all-terrain vehicle"
> " when he (the game warden) was held at gunpoint by an Uphsur County commissioner and his son"
> ...


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## Bharvey (Mar 24, 2013)

bluefin said:


> Bharvey said:
> 
> 
> > The law says that if an officer uses unnecessary force to arrest or search you BEFORE you offer any resistance then you are justified in the use of force to resist arrest. I'm not sure how to make it any more clear. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

If anyone has any new information start a new thread.

I swear some of you will argue about nothing just for the sake of arguing.


TH


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