# AR Build



## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

So I'm giving a serious thought to building an AR. After much consideration, especially the price of ammo, and what I'm wanting to do with it I want to build one chambered for 7.62x39 ammo. I've tried to do some searching but couldn't find anything specifically on this but has anyone built one with the model 1 sales upper? They're a Texas company and seem pretty affordable. For the guys who have built one before what other affordable uppers would you recommend. For now I'm not trying to do anything fancy basically just a flat top. Finally, what's the difference in a chrome-moly, chromed lined and stainless barrel and what are the advantages of each. Thanks in advance for the info guys, I've been trying to read a lot on the AR-15 forums but man it gets overwhelming.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*No responses....*

No responses to your question. Maybe its just me, but I cant see going to all that trouble and money to build an AR for the 7.62 x 39 round. Why not just buy an eastern bloc AK?

If you want a 30 cal. maybe you should consider the 300 Blackout. Someone posted here about it....and it looks darn good and the ammo is pretty reasonable too. If not, whats wrong with the regular 5.56/223 ? Either way, when you are done you will have something.


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## beentheredonethat (Dec 30, 2010)

I just got a 300 blkout upper this week. Its awesome looking. Haven't had time to shoot it yet. Anyone looking for one, check out redx. They're from Minnesota. Shipping only took a week. 

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## beentheredonethat (Dec 30, 2010)

Ammo isn't bad. Dansammo.us is a quality supplier for me. 147 grain supersonics. .67¢ / round.


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## bjones2571 (May 2, 2007)

7.62 is a whole lot cheaper than $.67/round. from what Ive read you'll get better accuracy out of the AR than the typical AK in the 7.62. Don't know anything about Model 1 Sales, and understand the overkill of info on AR15.com and the like. There was recently some discussion on THF.com about 7.62 Ar's. You may have better luck over there.

For a 5.56 upper Id take a hard look at the Palmetto State Armory uppers. Lots of value there in my opinion. I bought one of their stainless uppers in .223 wylde and have been very impressed. The .223 Wylde allows you to shoot both 5.56 and .223, but typically has better accuracy than the 5.56 chambering.

Good luck.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Here you gosouthpaw.

http://308ar.com/forum/index.php


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*redx does look spectacular*



beentheredonethat said:


> I just got a 300 blkout upper this week. Its awesome looking. Haven't had time to shoot it yet. Anyone looking for one, check out redx. They're from Minnesota. Shipping only took a week.


Wow that is bad axe. Interesting...the upper is sans bolt because you use the same 223 bolt. Cool...thats why it can sell for that price. And it does look awesome. http://shop.redxarms.com/16-FLUTED-TACTICAL-SS-RXA-300-BLACKOUT-UPPER-HALF-300BLKF.htm

Again...why use our enemies' round when you can go with the latest and greatest USA round? http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/07/foghorn/ammunition-review-300-aac-blackout/


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## jaime1982 (Aug 25, 2009)

beentheredonethat said:


> I just got a 300 blkout upper this week. Its awesome looking. Haven't had time to shoot it yet. Anyone looking for one, check out redx. They're from Minnesota. Shipping only took a week.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2


Post up when you do shoot, im in the market for the 300 blk for my colt 6920. Im curious to see how the 1:10 twist works for you. Im getting all my stuff lined out so i can order my SBR and a can to shoot 300!


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## beentheredonethat (Dec 30, 2010)

Hurry up and get in line. I think the wait is going to take some time. I'm on the fence about getting suppressed. Its legal now to hunt with them. Just trying to justify it in my checkbook.

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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Johnboat said:


> No responses to your question. Maybe its just me, but I cant see going to all that trouble and money to build an AR for the 7.62 x 39 round. Why not just buy an eastern bloc AK?
> 
> If you want a 30 cal. maybe you should consider the 300 Blackout. Someone posted here about it....and it looks darn good and the ammo is pretty reasonable too. If not, whats wrong with the regular 5.56/223 ? Either way, when you are done you will have something.


I actually have given some good thought into just buying an AK, but I actually have a 5.56 right now so buying an upper would actually just be cheaper than buying an AK from a reliable brand. As for the 300 blackout, I love that caliber, but not the price of ammo. From what I've seen you're looking at $0.70 for cheap 300 blackout ammo vs $0.25 for decent 7.62x39 ammo and I don't see that changing any time soon. I've also heard all the talk about the 6.8 SPC becoming a military round thus getting cheaper but that's all talk for now. I understand a lot of guys out there don't like an AR in this caliber but from what I understand most problems stem from the magazines and more people are starting to make quality magazines for this caliber.

I'll be using this gun as primarily a hog gun and just general plinking. I've used a few different guns for hogs and IMH the 7.62 soviet is just a good round for them considering knock down power and price of the round. The 5.56 seems to suffer a lot when we get into brush. I could be wrong and maybe I should just stick with my 5.56.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

There's a lot of info on the assorted AR forums about it: I've never considered one in that caliber, so I haven't researched it much, but as I remember the AR platform has some inherent feed problems with that round: It's worth looking into, anyway.. 

The last two uppers I got were from JSE Surplus: been really happy with the service and the product. 

Just for the record, by the time you get the upper, the magazines, the bolt if it's not included, etc., I really doubt you'd be any cheaper than an off-the-shelf AK...


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Oh...you already have an AR in 5.56*

Thats a whole different deal. Similar situation here. My thinking is to use the 5.56 for plinking and burning up ammo in a fun way. Then when I get serious..hogs are the target...I use my 458 socom. (I really want still another upper in 300 blackout...but that is addiction talking) For those non 5.56 hunting uppers...I will not burn that much ammo so that cost is not prohibitive. Anyway, have fun with it.


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## wetduck (Jul 3, 2011)

having just finished mine in 7.62x 39 here ia what i learned if you want it to go painless.
must have m4 style feed ramps
must have the right mags, not all of them feed properly, the higher the cap the more likely to have feed problems.
must have heavy firing pin spring and correct pin to reliably set off cheap surplus ammo.
will need to clean ramp aand throat well to remove built up "varnish".
After researching it for 7 months i went ahead and bought a r guns upper. 625$
and shopped and got a deal on custom loaded AMMO.

you may be able to get around some of the issues if you like tinkering with things,I want it to go bang every time from round one.

if doing it over again i would buy a 300 black out and go enjoy it.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Check out the 6.5 Grendel. Its basically the AK brass, taper blown out, necked down to 6.5. Essentially no feed problems whatsoever. All you would need is a complete upper and mags. 

If you are not going to reload, forget about it. There will be some cheap overseas ammo for the 6.5, but basically, its a reloader's caliber. 

The other problem with the AK round is ballistics. They are very poor, particularly out of a short barrel. The relatively small selection of projectiles does not help much either.


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Johnboat said:


> Thats a whole different deal. Similar situation here. My thinking is to use the 5.56 for plinking and burning up ammo in a fun way. Then when I get serious..hogs are the target...I use my 458 socom. (I really want still another upper in 300 blackout...but that is addiction talking) *For those non 5.56 hunting uppers...I will not burn that much ammo so that cost is not prohibitive.* Anyway, have fun with it.


Now that makes sense and I actually found some .300 blkout ammo for not to expensive today and even found a really affordable upper with bcg through SOTA arms found here, https://sotaarms.com/home/product/view/2/89. By the looks of it, it may actually be the same as the Red X, both are Minnesota companies. Another concern with the 300 blackout is how available will this round be in the future? It's pretty popular now, but will it last? Also what's the effective range of the 300 blackout?


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Thanks for all of the info guys, I think I'm really starting to lean towards either building the 300BLK or just sticking with the 5.56. I just can't tell with the 7.62 soviet. It really seems like there's just too many mixed reviews. Some people love it and others hate it. 

Beentheredonethat: What's the quality of that Red X upper. I figure with prices like that there has to be a catch. Not saying there is but I'm hesitant. I read on a few forums there are some finishing issues with red x and there's some chatter with the bolts, but that was with the 5.56.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Check for yourself but I think*



southpaw;What's the quality of that Red X upper. I figure with prices like that there has to be a catch. Not saying there is but I'm hesitant. I read on a few forums there are some finishing issues with red x and there's some chatter with the bolts said:


> I think the RedX is priced without the bolt, charging handle items...because you use the regular 223 items. The other brand is clearly priced with a bolt carrier group included.


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## beentheredonethat (Dec 30, 2010)

Southpaw,
The quality of the RedX is really nice. No roll marks other than on top of rail. Fits really tight in my PSA lower. That's good though. I looked and couldn't find one for cheaper anywhere. I'm not saying that it is the best on the market, but better that paying a 1000$ for an upper. I'm planning on shooting it this week. I'll let you know if there's any issues. 
I need to get a dedicated BCG for it, but until then, I'm using my 5.56 BCG.That and pmags, that I already have. Ammo is quality and all brass. That's more than I can say for 7.62 russia stuff. Just trying to help ya out.


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## beentheredonethat (Dec 30, 2010)

Johnboat said:


> I think the RedX is priced without the bolt, charging handle items...because you use the regular 223 items. The other brand is clearly priced with a bolt carrier group included.


Not always. Look at bravo Co. They are without and are still 5-700 without bcg.

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## JonWayne (Jan 7, 2011)

I have a Daniel defense v5 in 300 blackout and it's the best shooting ar I've shot. I shoot the hornady 110gr and it's 1/2 as loud as my .223/556 ar. If your wanting just a gun for hogs/varmints the 300 blackout is great out to about 250 yards. Bushmaster makes an upper for the 7.62x39 if you can find one.... Chrome lined barrels are supposed to last longer from what I understand. Stainless barrels are mainly the non blued heavy barrels. Chrome moly I believe are the blued or blacked looking barrels.


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## JonWayne (Jan 7, 2011)

Hornady 300 rounds are about $19-24 depending where you buy from. There also the 300 whisper which is capable of shooting out of a 300 blackout chamber


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## beentheredonethat (Dec 30, 2010)

Ill try to post a pic of my red x.

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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Go to the range BeenThereDoneThat !*

I have my trigger finger hovering over the "place order" button for that RedX partial upper. I am trying to be somewhat sensible so I am waiting for your range report. Get busy!


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Johnboat said:


> I have my trigger finger hovering over the "place order" button for that RedX partial upper. I am trying to be somewhat sensible so I am waiting for your range report. Get busy!


This might be one of those shoot first ask questions later kind of situations johnboat 

I'm sold on the 300 blk I just hope ammo doesnt get more expensive for it. I decided to go with the sota upper with BCG. Figured I'd like to go ahead have a dedicated BCG for it. Once it comes in I'll post up some pics and soon after a range report. Thanks for all the help guys


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Beentheredonethat how's the material tolerance on that upper feel? Any sharp edges or anything like that? How is it with the bolt in? Any movement or chatter?


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Sorry for all of the posts, but I have one last question. The red X upper lists the barrel as a 1:10 twist. From what I understand doesn't the 300BLK require a 1:7 or 1:8 twist? Could be misunderstanding this but can't having a 1:10 twist with a 125 or larger grain bullet cause unnecessary barrel wear?


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## beentheredonethat (Dec 30, 2010)

Southpaw
I don't see any tolerance errors on upper. Fits tight. Bolt is really tight. I think it will loosen up after a few rounds. 
As far as 1/10 don't know. I though it was common. 5.56 uses a standard 55 grain. 300's run a bullet 2x-4x heavier. So just like heavier grain 5.56 ie 62-75 they recommend 1:8 or 1:9 twisted. Might be wrong though. 
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## beentheredonethat (Dec 30, 2010)

Southpaw, 
Did you order the SOTA?

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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*I think you have to assume*

I think you have to assume that the maker used an acceptable twist rate for a particular caliber. I know there have been errors in the past but very few. If you google search you will see a lot of conversation about it. What I am guessing....the 300 Blackout uses a wide range of bullets from light and supersonic to heavy and subsonic....and the 1:10 is a compromise that will work with most. But that is only a guess. And I would certainly like to hear more if anyone knows more.


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## Cowboygunsmith45 (Nov 26, 2006)

Come check us out. www.PrimaryArms.com Everything you need to build from scratch. Local Texas Business in Pearland. 
We have a storefront or fast shipping from the website!


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

beentheredonethat said:


> Southpaw,
> Did you order the SOTA?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2


No not yet. I've been reading some reviews and it seems they have some FTF issues and even a case of slamfire. Don't know how easy the fix is but I'd like it to go bang reliably straight out of the box. So I might just end up getting the Red X or maybe even sucking it up and looking it at other options



> Come check us out. www.PrimaryArms.com Everything you need to build from scratch. Local Texas Business in Pearland.
> We have a storefront or fast shipping from the website!


I may come in and take a look at that CMMG upper yall have


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## panhandle_slim (Jun 1, 2012)

Has anyone here used the 300 blackout on anything other than hogs/predators? Deer? Or was it designed primarily for varmits?


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

panhandle_slim said:


> Has anyone here used the 300 blackout on anything other than hogs/predators? Deer? Or was it designed primarily for varmits?


There's quite a few threads on this on some of the AR forums and yes you can use it on whitetail although using a higher grain round is recommended. A lot of people compare the ballistics of the 300 BLK to that of a 30-30, but again what grain round you buy will change that. Most people say deer under 150 yds would be fine though. Hopefully I'll be able to tell you for sure this coming season...


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## bobbycocano (Oct 24, 2007)

I have a cmmg blackout upper and it has a 1-8 twist rate. I know it shoots the super sonic ammo just fine. Haven't put the subsonic through it yet because I am still waiting on my tax stamp for my can. Honestly if you dont have/plan on getting a suppressor then there is no reason to shoot subsonics... I do know that I will be spending some time at the range to make sure that the subsonics are stabilizing before I send one through my can...


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Twist rate for dummies (me)*

I don't know more than I know about this.

I think the first number is one revolution and the second is number of inches....is that right? So 1:7 is a faster twist than 1:10 which is a slower twist...because it takes only seven inches to make a full turn instead of 10 inches....is that right?

Question: what it better for heavy-for-caliber vs. light-for-caliber bullets..faster twist or slower twist?


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## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

The heavier bullet the faster the twist needed to stabilize it.


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

Usually the heavier bullets will want a faster twist. That is because of the length of the bullet more than anything else. In 223 for example a 1/7 will be fine for 55-77+. A 1/9 is good for 50-62 but might handle some heavier or lighter. You have to experiment a little because a 1/7 could really be a 1/7.7. It all depends on the machine work of the manufacturer. 

In 308 I run a 1/11.25. It handles pretty much everythnig from 155-175 grain. My friend runs a 1/12 and his likes 155-168. I know some of those 300BLK loads are 190-220 grain or something heavy for the subsonic loads. I would think you would need a 1/10 minimum. Like I said you have to experiment a little or read what others are using with good results. I have zero experience with this caliber so I could be wrong. I can't have a suppressor here in CA so I won't jump on this round until I leave this awful state.


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## A Draper (Aug 14, 2007)

I think 300blk is going to fill niche with ARs. It's going to struggle against the 6.8 out at distance but it will kill most folks interest in a 7.62x39 given bolt and mag issues.


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

I think the 7.62 x 39 needs to stay in the AK/SKS platform, same with the 5.45. The ammunition is only so accurate as is, so why stick in an AR that has the potential to be much more accurate? The 6.8 stomps the 7.62 x 39 inside the same range for ballistics, and there is much better bullet selection. That's just my opinion. 

I can see the want for cheaper ammo but you have mag issues. Some seem to work well while others don't. I just think with all the other AR caliber choices its a no brainer to go with the proven options like 6.8, 6.5 grendle and 300BLK over the 7.62 x 39 if you want something between 5.56/223 and 308. Better selection and accuracy potential.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Thanks Bantam....and*

Thats what I needed. So in your opinion, is the 1:10 barrel on the RedX 300 Blackout upper discussed a reasonable choice? Thanks.


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## beentheredonethat (Dec 30, 2010)

Shot the redx today. I was really pleased. Had trouble with my hologram as it was the first time using it. Other than that, the gun will hunt. The recoil was minimal. Loud as he77. Only problem was after shooting I picked up my brass and noticed it was smashing one side of the rim at the top. Don't know what's the cause. Any guesses?

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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

beentheredonethat said:


> Shot the redx today. I was really pleased. Had trouble with my hologram as it was the first time using it. Other than that, the gun will hunt. The recoil was minimal. Loud as he77. Only problem was after shooting I picked up my brass and noticed it was smashing one side of the rim at the top. Don't know what's the cause. Any guesses?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2


From what I've heard it's a pretty common problem with the 300 BLK. Really it's not a problem it's just a result of using a 5.56 system. Since the upper is designed to cycle a necked 5.56 round the brass deflector was optimized to do so as well. The dent comes from the wider necked 300 BLK casing hitting the brass deflector on its way out. Some people will put a piece of felt on the brass deflector to remedy this.


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Johnboat said:


> Thats what I needed. So in your opinion, is the 1:10 barrel on the RedX 300 Blackout upper discussed a reasonable choice? Thanks.


I think as long as you're shooting supersonics you should be fine. If you start shooting 200 + gr rounds the 1:10 twist may not be sufficient enough to stabilize the round. Heavier bullet means more inertia so you need a tighter twist to get the bullet spinning


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## Brute (Apr 29, 2009)

Did you look at the 6.8?

All you need is the ARPerformance upper and Rock River lower with stage 2 trigger. Pretty reasonably priced and will perform as good or better than any thing listed so far. Click... Click... Click and its on its way.

Here is a thread about the 300BO vs the 6.8. There are many others if you search around.
http://68forums.com/forums/showthre...hink-6.8-better-hunting-round-than-300-blkout


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*thanks.*



southpaw said:


> I think as long as you're shooting supersonics you should be fine. If you start shooting 200 + gr rounds the 1:10 twist may not be sufficient enough to stabilize the round. Heavier bullet means more inertia so you need a tighter twist to get the bullet spinning


But...when you mention the large subsonics....are you taking into account how slow they are moving? Is that a factor in being able to stabilize them? I am thinking any barrel made for the 300 should be capable of stabilizing the subsonic heavy rounds since that is the original purpose of this caliber.


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Johnboat said:


> But...when you mention the large subsonics....are you taking into account how slow they are moving? Is that a factor in being able to stabilize them? I am thinking any barrel made for the 300 should be capable of stabilizing the subsonic heavy rounds since that is the original purpose of this caliber.


From what I understand velocity doesn't have as much to do with it as rotational inertia does. Again since it's a heavy round it takes more to get it moving hence the tighter twist. AAC recommends a 1:7 twist for suppressed subsonics. But a 1:8 provides a good range for super to subsonics. All of the bigger names (AAC, Noveski, Delta Arms, etc) seem to be using a 1:7 or 1:8 twist on their uppers. That being said though, some of those are shorter barrels ~9". So maybe with a 16" barrel it's less of a concern. Either way if you wanted to shoot subsonics and suppress it, I'm pretty sure you'd have to do a few other modifications to the gun, like change the gas system. From my understanding, not all uppers are made to fire subsonics. Not saying that the Red X can't, but I'd make sure your bullet was stabilizing before putting a can on it



> Did you look at the 6.8?
> 
> All you need is the ARPerformance upper and Rock River lower with stage 2 trigger. Pretty reasonably priced and will perform as good or better than any thing listed so far. Click... Click... Click and its on its way.
> 
> ...


I did look at the 6.8 and for my particular purpose, I like the 300 BLK. I won't be shooting past 150-200yds so the 300 BLK is all I need. No doubt the 6.8 spc outperforms the 300 BLk at distances, but I'd also have to buy new mags and bolt. That and currently 300 BLK rounds are cheaper than the 6.8 SPC. But I do like the 6.8 SPC


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

For Reference from the 300 BLK website (http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=73274)

Q:What the best twist rate?
A: The suggested SAAMI twist rate is 1:8, which seems to be the best for a 50/50 mix of subsonic and full power ammo. 1:7 may end up the best overall twist though as it can shoot a wider range of bullets. If you are sure you will never shoot subsonic ammo, you could consider 1:12 - however there is currently no proof that would offer an advantage. In fact, for very light / short bullets - 110 grain Sierra® and Berger®, 1:8 twist factory test barrels were averaging 0.8 to 0.9 MOA at 100 yards for 25 shots (three groups of five shots each). It is important to note that no flyers were discarded from this testing, and that three shot groups - as people casually do - would show a much smaller group size. 5x5 groups, however, is probably the minimal amount of testing for having a meaningful basis for comparison.


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## Brute (Apr 29, 2009)

Where are the 300BLK rounds cheaper? 

300BLK has some FMJ that were $12 & $13 but other than that all the hunting rounds I saw were more expensive than the 6.8.


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## beentheredonethat (Dec 30, 2010)

Brute, I haven't looked at 6.8 in a while. 300 blkout are 20$ per box of 20 for " hunting" quality ammo. How much is 6.8 in hornady or similar quality hunting cartridges?

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## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

beentheredonethat said:


> Brute, I haven't looked at 6.8 in a while. 300 blkout are 20$ per box of 20 for " hunting" quality ammo. How much is 6.8 in hornady or similar quality hunting cartridges?


I think I paid 21-22 bucks for Hornady 6.8 at Academy.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Twist rate still confusing.....458 Socom*

Last night I read the bbl of my RRA 458 Socom. This uses bullets from 300 to 600 grain. The twist rate is 1:14...slooooooow. So this seems to go against the wisdom that you need faster twist to stabilize heavy bullets. Or what am I still not understanding?


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Johnboat said:


> Last night I read the bbl of my RRA 458 Socom. This uses bullets from 300 to 600 grain. The twist rate is 1:14...slooooooow. So this seems to go against the wisdom that you need faster twist to stabilize heavy bullets. Or what am I still not understanding?


Haha I got nothing for that. My understanding for twist rates just got tossed out the window, I was probably overthinking it in the first place.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*But...even dummy me can draw a graph line*



southpaw said:


> Haha I got nothing for that. My understanding for twist rates just got tossed out the window, I was probably overthinking it in the first place.


5.56/223 1:7 twist (on my Colt AR)

300 Blackout 1:10 twist (on the RedX)

458 Socom 1:14 twist (on my RRA)

All above barrels are 16 inches

Looks to this dummy that smaller calibers get faster twist and larger calibers get slower twist.


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## Dgeddings (Sep 16, 2010)

for a 7.62x39 round I think the best rifle out there is the SIIG 556R their not incredibly expensive and come with a red dot from the factory, they shoot smooth as well as accurate and reliable, mags are cheap as they just use AK mags


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## Brute (Apr 29, 2009)

Too Tall said:


> I think I paid 21-22 bucks for Hornady 6.8 at Academy.


Yup. They are all in the same price. You an also get Barnes and SPH.


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Brute said:


> Yup. They are all in the same price. You an also get Barnes and SPH.


Yeah I was talking about FMJs. But overall the "hunting" rounds are about the same.



> 5.56/223 1:7 twist (on my Colt AR)
> 
> 300 Blackout 1:10 twist (on the RedX)
> 
> ...


Haha there seems to be a correlation.... As I've said before, I am by no means any kind of expert, I was just stating what I've read. SAMMI suggested a 1:8 twist and most of the higher end uppers I've seen come with the same 1:8 twist, even in the 16" barrels. Higher twist rates seemed to be the exception and not the norm for the 300 BLK. But who really knows, maybe Red X is on to something here.


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