# Game Wardens make big bust



## texasGG (Mar 12, 2007)

May 8th
SAM RAYBURN RESERVOIR, TX (KTRE) - Texas Game Wardens said multiple criminal charges have been filed against a group who were over the limit and had undersized crappie on Lake Sam Rayburn, three licensed fishing guides and 12 out-of-state anglers were 208 fish over the limit on crappie and had 40 undersized fish as well.

The incident happened Tuesday and Game Wardens said cases and civil restitution is pending at this time.


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## Ken.Huynh (May 30, 2014)

Wow. A few undersize maybe a mistake but 40 isnâ€™t for sure. 


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## Momma's Worry (Aug 3, 2009)

all laws aside ..I consider crappie no different than blue-gills...should not be any limits


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## tbone2374 (Feb 27, 2010)

Momma's Worry said:


> all laws aside ..I consider crappie no different than blue-gills...should not be any limits


 LOL People don't respect the resource, and take advantage, to please themselves, is the reason for restrictions! Can't count the number of times, I've seem folks keep undersized bass, treating them just like perch. Humans, can't and don't use the resource, wisely...even a wild animal only preys on what it can eat! No, I'm not, a Liberal!:headknock


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## fishinganimal (Mar 30, 2006)

Three licensed guides is whats disturbing. And how many times have they done this?


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## FishingFiend (Nov 9, 2016)

What is the penalty for harvesting any undersized or oversized fish per fish in the state of Texas?


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## fishin_envy (Aug 13, 2010)

fishinganimal said:


> Three licensed guides is whats disturbing. And how many times have they done this?


Exactly. Should have their guide license revoked for 10 or more years.


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## Hoytbowhunter (Jan 15, 2009)

https://www.ktre.com/2019/05/08/gui...with-over-limit-amount-fish-lake-sam-rayburn/


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## UnclePoPo (Jun 4, 2013)

fishinganimal said:


> Three licensed guides is whats disturbing. And how many times have they done this?


It most likely was not their first time. I would be willing to bet the Game Warden had a tip that they were doing this and that is why they were targeted.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Should have their guide licenses revoked for life.
As well as their fishing license priveleges revoked for life.
As well as penalty and restitution for 248 crappie.

Cannot be tolerated.


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## whsalum (Mar 4, 2013)

no justification for this but there's a lot more to this than is being published . I could see them losing their guide license but a life time ban seems a little extreme.


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## HawgTied (Oct 8, 2012)

These are likely the same people that have three years worth of fish in their freezer that they will likely never eat. I personally, use the resources I harvest. Greed is a driving factor here. These folks should be ashamed for ignoring bag and size limits. That's stuff that we, as sportsmen and women, are taught at very early age. Throw the book at them!


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## fishinganimal (Mar 30, 2006)

If we only knew how many offenders that are out there every day doing it. Its staggering I'm sure. Some will get caught but we only have so many Wardens.


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## capt2016 (Mar 4, 2016)

I agree pull all licenses for life they knew what they were doing no doubt about it ain't no playing stupid


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## TranTheMan (Aug 17, 2009)

Hoytbowhunter said:


> https://www.ktre.com/2019/05/08/gui...with-over-limit-amount-fish-lake-sam-rayburn/


Wow. Throw the books at them.


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## fishinganimal (Mar 30, 2006)

300 wasn't enough.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

fishinganimal said:


> 300 wasn't enough.


Frigging really???
However this smacks of people with deep pockets and not the guides, who should get the book thrown at them for going along with it. It was their job to say stop and mean it.
The customers are well heeled no doubt and will tie this up in court with expensive lawyers until the state gets tired of dealing with it and settles cheap.

Mommaâ€™s worry not sure about the crappie bluegill comparison as people will drive long distances and jam up a spot where they hear crappie are biting with way more people than the resource can handle.
That puts considerable strain on the numbers of crappie.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

whsalum said:


> no justification for this but there's a lot more to this than is being published . I could see them losing their guide license but a life time ban seems a little extreme.


How many trips and how many fish that they willingly knowingly steal from you and all your friends before they need to be stopped?

Nothing will make them stop. Even with lifetime ban on license..... would have to confiscate their freezers amd all their friends freezers....


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## whsalum (Mar 4, 2013)

What if I took 12 clients white bass fishing and didn't feel like cleaning my first day catch and iced them down, went the following day and caught 300 more. Does this constitute a life time ban? They can't justify the short fish unless they put 10" fish on ice which they could have. I would be willing to bet there wasn't an over the limit issue on "the boats". Like I said, there's probably a lot more to this than the article states.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

The fact is this was not a legal limit / possession limit case. That is a major case and this detail wasnt left out by accident.

The fact is, and it is stated and did happen, is that three guides purposely, willingly, knowingly worked together to violate the limits on both possession and size. Three guides who know how to load the boat easily raped the resource stealing from all.

The assumption isand the only thing not in the article is that wardens didnt just stumble upon a lucky bust. This had been going on numerous times over and someone reported a game thief situation .... likely occured numerous times.

Another assumption is if the anglers were just as knowledgeable to continue. In which case they to would be guilty.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

About 100% of the time when a game wardens approaches an angler they have been observing them from a distance with high power optics and know what activities they have been up to before approaching them.
In a case with this many people involved you can be sure there was a tip off it had been going on and would happen again.
I hope they can make it stick with some real skin taken off everyoneâ€™s hide, I would like to the eventual outcome.
I may not live that long however because I think itâ€™ll be in court a long time.


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## whsalum (Mar 4, 2013)

These fish were not taken in a single day and confiscated on the boat, This was a group of 12 anglers who had hired 3 guides for multiple days. According to KJAS radio in Jasper the anglers were charged with 1 Class C misdemeanor. Charges on the guides are pending. I'm not trying to justify what the guides did because they know the law. I am saying this is no different as far as the number of fish being taken than it would have been had they came in and cleaned the catch at the end of day 1 and then went back and caught 208 on day 2. Folks need to look at daily bag limits and possession limits etc. especially if you are camping and staying at a lodge on the lake.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Billy, I can follow your logic I think. To start with, we are dealing with a big party, 12 guys. On day 1 they limited and had 300. Day 2 they only had 208. They didn't keep the catch separated and organized and legal. _But there is still the 40 undersized fish._

If I made my living guiding, I would not allow myself to get in the middle of this. It hurts the pocket book, and their reputation. As the story gets passed around, there is no requirement to repeat all the facts and make the listener understand. "Did you hear about that guide Uncle Buck? He had 208 crappie too many!"

To me, fish and game laws make it cut & dried, black & white, not confusing. I would not risk my livelihood for clients. If clients want to keep yesterdays fish until today, they would have to be in possession, not me.

Not meaning to argue, really.


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## rglide09 (Mar 21, 2012)

All of us have seen this same thing on Livingston with white bass, no matter how small the fish is it goes in the cooler. Iâ€™ve seen 2 guides (not Loy) keep undersized fish, 1 launched at the state park frequently. 


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## impulse (Mar 17, 2010)

I know it's beside the point, but what is the current state of the crappie population on the lake? Are they thriving, barely hanging on, or are they so thick that they're stunted?

Just curious to hear from some of the guys who fish them regularly. I don't keep fish at all, but I've seen lots of lakes where they do need to be culled.

BTW, here's a shameless plug for one of the best ideas I've heard... One license fee for people who keep fish and a discounted license fee for those (like me) who do 100% catch and release. With maybe one trophy tag for each species every year.


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## whsalum (Mar 4, 2013)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Billy, I can follow your logic I think. To start with, we are dealing with a big party, 12 guys. On day 1 they limited and had 300. Day 2 they only had 208. They didn't keep the catch separated and organized and legal. _But there is still the 40 undersized fish._
> 
> If I made my living guiding, I would not allow myself to get in the middle of this. It hurts the pocket book, and their reputation. As the story gets passed around, there is no requirement to repeat all the facts and make the listener understand. "Did you hear about that guide Uncle Buck? He had 208 crappie too many!"
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to justify what these folks did at all. They know all the rules and can't break any of them or they have to pay the fines. All I can say about an undersized fish is this. Next time you catch a 10' white bass ice it down and measure it 24 hours later. If TPWD had stopped and searched a boat with 508 crappie on it they would not issue each angler 1 class C misdemeanor. Like I said before the guides will have to be responsible and pay their fines. They could very well lose their guide license but a lifetime fishing ban is extreme. If the outrage is over harvest then we have to look at the number of guide license issued on any particular reservoir and daily bag limits per boat, not per person. There are some really good guides on Rayburn who routinely catch 200-300 crappie a day, Should there be an uproar about this if it is done legally?


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Why would there be any uproar for legal take? Thats the guides job.

It is also their job to not operate illegally.

If you did something grossly illegal in your job assignment with full knowledge and willing intent wouldnt it be likely that you would be fired? Secondly isnt it probable if that was widely known and public information in your industry that you may likely never be allowed to perform that job function again and have difficulty finding work in that field?

Guide licenses are not issued per water body. I know several licensed guides me included that trailer a great distance from home as needed so going by address isnt useful to define a licensed guides home waters.


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## whsalum (Mar 4, 2013)

sgrem said:


> Why would there be any uproar for legal take? Thats the guides job.
> 
> It is also their job to not operate illegally.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with anything you said. I even said they probably will lose their license. I know perfectly well how guide license are issued. My question was is the uproar about over harvest or breaking a possession vs bag limit? The guides are ultimately responsible for the actions of their clients and will be held accountable, I just think personally a lifetime ban is a litte to much in this particular case.


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## 4 Ever-Fish N (Jun 10, 2006)

I just hope the judge or whoever decides the punishment will make it harsh enough to leave a lasting impression on these 3 guides and others thinking about doing the same thing. All the facts should be considered.


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## fishinganimal (Mar 30, 2006)

Th only way they can get ticketed for over the limit is if they had these fish in possession while fishing. Because the possession limit is twice the daily bag limit at camp correct? The undersized fish are the real issue here more than likely. The ice theory is the anglers fault period. If you have to squeeze the tail to get to 10" it will be undersized frozen. Your asking for a ticket. A guide will keep some that are right on it because they usually clean the fish for the party right after the charter ends. No chance of shrinkage.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

shadslinger said:


> About 100% of the time when a game wardens approaches an angler they have been observing them from a distance with high power optics and know what activities they have been up to before approaching them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Not too many years ago, I watched as a TP&WD boat launched below the LL dam. I don't know if he had watched earlier or not. He made his way around, and got to me. Without pointing or any indication physically I described some guys fishing nearby that he might should take an interest in. Best I could tell from watching, he got them for excessive numbers and undersized. I didn't feel bad for what I did.

Just my opinion, but in the Trinity watershed, it seems boaters in the main lake stay fairly legal. Below the dam, and way up stream during the WB spawn is a different matter.


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## whsalum (Mar 4, 2013)

fishinganimal said:


> Th only way they can get ticketed for over the limit is if they had these fish in possession while fishing. Because the possession limit is twice the daily bag limit at camp correct? The undersized fish are the real issue here more than likely. The ice theory is the anglers fault period. If you have to squeeze the tail to get to 10" it will be undersized frozen. Your asking for a ticket. A guide will keep some that are right on it because they usually clean the fish for the party right after the charter ends. No chance of shrinkage.


The bag vs possession limit is where this gets tricky. If the fish are iced and not cleaned it can be a decision made by the warden.I'm not saying these folks don't deserve to be fined and lose their guide license just not in favor of a lifetime license ban. I received a citation or two in my younger days, I sure would have hated to lose my license for life at 22 or 23 lol


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Did your recieve citations as a guide colluding with other guides to repeatedly break game laws?

I made mistakes and educated myself or have been educated by a warden prior to becoming a guide i agree. But now as a full time guide i cannot be creative with the game laws. They must be well known and followed. If i am unsure i seek clarification. If i cannot get clarification immediately we dont keep. Very simple.

Possession is possession whether that is on your stringer or cooler or back at camp. When that game is packaged back at your usual place of residence (not a hotel or freezer back at camp....has to be where you live full time....on your drivers license or where you get your mail for example) only then does it not count against your possession limit.

Wardens will have been watching them. I highly doubt this is a possession limit question. They would have busted for a one day take. The guides may be CLAIMING it was possession over a two day take but wardens will have been watching and know who was on board yesterday and today to make this kind of bust.

I often have yesterdays catch/kill uncleaned on ice but separated from todays catch/kill. They have had pictures of me and my customers coming in and going out to confirm they fished with me two days. Been there.

If the guides are claiming possession limits and wardens know otherwise it is the hundreth time they have done this trying to get away with this kind of theft.


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## fishinganimal (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm sure they were watched. Another thing I noticed not much ice shown in those coolers. Either way if they had a limit from the day before they should be cleaned and bagged. Its all speculation but it clearly states on the Texas Game Wardens Facebook page multiple violations for over the limit and undersized. So its got to be both. There are people that fish charters multiple days back to back all over and possession limits are never mentioned at the camps.



whsalum said:


> The bag vs possession limit is where this gets tricky. If the fish are iced and not cleaned it can be a decision made by the warden.I'm not saying these folks don't deserve to be fined and lose their guide license just not in favor of a lifetime license ban. I received a citation or two in my younger days, I sure would have hated to lose my license for life at 22 or 23 lol


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## whsalum (Mar 4, 2013)

fishinganimal said:


> I'm sure they were watched. Another thing I noticed not much ice shown in those coolers. Either way if they had a limit from the day before they should be cleaned and bagged. Its all speculation but it clearly states on the Texas Game Wardens Facebook page multiple violations for over the limit and undersized. So its got to be both. There are people that fish charters multiple days back to back all over and possession limits are never mentioned at the camps.


You are absolutely correct about the fish that should have been cleaned at the camp , They weren't and it is going to be a costly mistake. They probably should lose their guide license. I have no problem with that at all. I don't think this warrants a lifetime fishing ban however. We may have to agree to disagree on that aspect of it.


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