# 13" Spread Question



## lovethemreds (Mar 23, 2005)

This is just speculation, but figured it has happened and will happen before. What is the proper thing to do if you shoot a buck that does not have the 13" spread. At 100 yards away it looked plenty legal but then you walk up to it and see that it is just a hair under 13". However, it is mature buck with thick high horns that you never thought would have been less. 

What do you do? What is supposed to be the correct or legal process?

Before anybody starts going game warden on me, I did not do this but I can imagine it has happened to someone or it could happen.


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## EricG (May 28, 2004)

It happened to me. He was outside the ears. On the tape measure he ways 12 7/8. Game Warden came by that afternoon. He put his tape on it and said close enough. I see no reason to call a game warden if it was an honest mistake.


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## Whitecrow (May 26, 2004)

There's really no "legal" process. You shot an illegal deer, period. You have two choices: Call the possum cops and report it, or butcher it and hope you don't get checked. I guess you could leave it lay, but I don't really consider that an option.


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## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

Whitecrow said:


> There's really no "legal" process. You shot an illegal deer, period. You have two choices: Call the possum cops and report it, *or butcher it and hope you don't get checked*. I guess you could leave it lay, but I don't really consider that an option.


this would be the route I take as well.

I'm sure the junior game warden posse will be here soon.... I would like to know if the people that claim they would turn themselves in also voluntarily let the Texas DPS know everytime they don't come to a complete stop, or go over the speed limit by 1 or 2 MPH


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

i've been wondering that exact same thing since last year...not that we've shot any bucks (too young) but like you stated, i'm sure it's happened before to someone in one of the counties.


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## T_Sebastian (May 12, 2010)

It happened to me last year. It was right at sunset, so it was pretty dark. I was shooting a muzzle loader with no scope, and I had no binocs on me. The "doe" was 110 yards away. I took the shot and walked up on the dead deer to find that it was the smallest 6 point Ive ever seen. I told the lease manager, he called the GW, and told him what happened. GW said since it was an honest mistake, he'd let it slide, but he said I would have to tag it and log it as my 13" or bigger buck.


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## tdgal (Jun 16, 2009)

This happened on our lease this weekend, 12 year old boy shot a very nice 8. Very tall, heavy mass, large mature body and alot of gray on the nose. Dad gave him the okay to shoot. Measured 12 3/4 inches inside spread. Dad called the GW which met them at the processor, looked at the deer and told the young man good shot and drove off.

I'm assuming the GW's have the common sense to know what they want us to harvest and what not to harvest. So don't come into camp with a basket rack 8 point only 9-10 inches wide and expect to not get a ticket.


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## silver reflections (Aug 30, 2008)

*the rule has met it's time to expire*

I personally would like to see this rule expire. There may be people out there that see really big bucks, but where I hunt, it is like a needle in a haystack, a very large haystack. I am tired of watching bucks just walk by and nothing I can do about it. 3 years now, nothing to bring to the table. I could have had one every year otherwise.

I figure after 3 years, it should have died, but after this year, let's hope it does. 
My 2 cents worth for what is it worth.sad3sm

My opinion is that it is hard to tell, this is why this rule should go away. Not much difference between 12-13" in low light and the rule on how to tell is not always correct. Good that the GW let ya'll slide. I think after all these years, they hate it as much as some people.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Oh it's a long way from expiring and 3-years ain't that long...if they let it expire then people would start shooting the first buck they see and your age class of your deer will go back to 1.5-2.5 years old.

It works if you'll let it.

TH


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## txbuck44 (Dec 5, 2006)

if you let it lay it would be a waste of game, and unethical. just take the chance. if you get checked just be up front with them. i like the rule, and also believes it works if you let it.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Trouthunter said:


> Oh it's a long way from expiring and 3-years ain't that long...if they let it expire then people would start shooting the first buck they see and your age class of your deer will go back to 1.5-2.5 years old.
> 
> It works if you'll let it.
> 
> TH


X2... well said.

and if you start making exceptions for 12" deer, then you have to make exceptions for 11" deer.... then 10" deer and so on and so on....

You have to have a concrete rule. If its so close that you are not sure, then you are not supposed to shoot.... thats the whole point of the designated size. Its not supposed to be a **** shoot..... The state is hoping that hunters will actually take 14" deer instead of 13" deer to make sure they are clear of breaking laws.

As far as making a mistake, I would say not contact the game warden. I would advise to mark it on your tag or add additional documentation to go along with your tag saying that you are aware that the buck did not meet the size requirements.... that way if you are checked, you can be honest and the GW wont think you are trying to get away with it.

If you take the deer to a processor, let them know up front that the deer did not meet the size restrictions and ask their opinion on what to do going forward. Im sure they will let you know pretty quick and make arrangements for a warden to come drop by.

It is not fair, however, to get upset at a warden if he/she WERE to write you a ticket for a 12 3/4" deer.... A GW that lets it slide as a mistake is nice, but remember, a law is a law and they are there to enforce those laws.

And I dont WANT to be a JGW, BUT ....

*It happened to me last year. It was right at sunset, so it was pretty dark. I was shooting a muzzle loader with no scope, and I had no binocs on me. The "doe" was 110 yards away. I took the shot and walked up on the dead deer to find that it was the smallest 6 point Ive ever seen. *

At dark, 100+ yards, no optics or any equipment to be certain what sex of deer you are shooting??? Pass on the shot..... just saying....


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## Benny (May 21, 2004)

This discussion has come up on our ranch in the past. Personally, my take is if there is any question on any deer (13", a spike that may or may not have a kicker point, doe that is a button buck, etc.) don't take the shot. I learned a a kid that if I'm not 100% sure of my target, don't shoot. 
If he's on the bubble, try to age him and give him another year and look at him again. This is where IMO game cameras are invaluable. Sometimes in the stand it's easy to rush judgement. If you get to know your deer on film, it will take a lot of the guess work out of it.


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## T_Sebastian (May 12, 2010)

I agree, Justin. I learned my lesson.


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## BALZTOWAL (Aug 29, 2006)

I predict the 13 inch rule not only is going to stay but will eventually be statewide and the deer that will never be 13 inches for what ever reason will be shot by mld holders.


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## redduck (Jul 26, 2006)

I am not trying to get into a PIssss contest but I believe spurger is correct in the money aspect and with respect to the better deer herd I think Texas has plenty of deer and I have not heard of any depletion of resources such as fish. Regulations were in place for fish to keep them from being depleted. That was not happening with deer. I do fear bigger horns will cause the cost of hunting to go very high. Fortunately I can afford it but others may not be able to. For the sake of listening and understanding I have taken a wait and see approach to this rule that went into affect for us last year. We had some disappointed hunters but only three left the lease.


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## Flat's Hunter (Oct 18, 2007)

what I would like to see is a 13' inside spread with the exception of a mature buck also qualify. The point of the spread is to let them grow up so why not have the age exception. It sounds like the GW are already enforcing this practice. Good for them.
THis would quiet the people who are mad about having the old **** buck breeding, and it just makes sense, since the point is to protect 1.5-2.5 year old bucks.

also for the people who havent seen anything in 3 years, you will have to give it more time. My dad bought a shot out place 10 years ago. it took 3-4 years to start to really see anything, then another couple of years to see any thing older the 1.5 years old and with the 13" rule we are just now starting to see legal bucks in the last 2 years. I figure you will need another 2 years if you are starting to see some young bucks now


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

redduck said:


> I am not trying to get into a PIssss contest but I believe spurger is correct in the money aspect and with respect to the better deer herd I think Texas has plenty of deer and I have not heard of any depletion of resources such as fish. Regulations were in place for fish to keep them from being depleted. That was not happening with deer. I do fear bigger horns will cause the cost of hunting to go very high. Fortunately I can afford it but others may not be able to. For the sake of listening and understanding I have taken a wait and see approach to this rule that went into affect for us last year. We had some disappointed hunters but only three left the lease.


The regulation is not to increase the quantity of deer, it is increase the quality of deer.... and its also to note that its not just about the size of the headgear.... a more mature deer will also have larger body mass.... The antlers are not 100 percent accurate, but its the best visual characteristic that a normal, everyday hunter can base judgements on.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Flat's Hunter said:


> what I would like to see is a 13' inside spread with the exception of a mature buck also qualify. The point of the spread is to let them grow up so why not have the age exception. It sounds like the GW are already enforcing this practice. Good for them.
> THis would quiet the people who are mad about having the old **** buck breeding, and it just makes sense, since the point is to protect 1.5-2.5 year old bucks.
> 
> also for the people who havent seen anything in 3 years, you will have to give it more time. My dad bought a shot out place 10 years ago. it took 3-4 years to start to really see anything, then another couple of years to see any thing older the 1.5 years old and with the 13" rule we are just now starting to see legal bucks in the last 2 years. I figure you will need another 2 years if you are starting to see some young bucks now


The age rule would be great, but its impossible to train every deer hunter how to successfully age a deer on the hoof. There would be a constant battle between deer hunter vs. state/game wardens about proving that they made a mistake about age, etc.... You cant argue 13"... To be honest, it would be best for the herd to have an age restriction on does, but it would be practically impossible due to the lack of a distinctive visual characteristic.

Good to hear about the success on your father's place. The rule is good and there is plenty of data and research to back it up. Its not an overnight change.... I drive alot and I can literally see the change in the last 3 years just while driving through antler restricted areas. I see much larger deer (not only rack size, but body size) while driving through East Texas. Before long, you will not be passing on 12" deer because they are illegal.... you will be passing on 14" deer because there are plenty of 16" deer running around.


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## ROBOWADER (May 22, 2004)

If it were me, I would tag it like I would any deer. If the game warden comes up, then explain what happened.


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## AggieDad (Dec 12, 2009)

I agree 100% that you MUST know what you are shooting at BEFORE you pull the trigger. How many people are shot by hunters with itchy trigger fingers. They have the same story "I thought I was shooting a deer." As far as the 13" rule - I agree with it. I hunted in Lee County for about 30 years. I rarely saw any decent bucks. The old rule was shoot the first buck you see because you might not get another shot at "horns". About 3 - 4 years after the 13" rule started we began to see bigger and better bucks. Yes, there are some older bucks that won't ever make it past 13" but let them go - a better buck will come along. This year I will hunt my own place in Houston County. I saw a really nice buck a couple of weeks ago - sure hope to see him again this weekend.

AggieDad


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman (Jun 2, 2007)

I know this is an old topic, but I thought that I would add my 2009 experience as it is relevant to the subject.

I was on a lease in Angelina County in East Texas. Typical east Texas timber company lease, and rarely saw bucks. When you did see them, they were usually moving pretty quick behind a doe. On a clear cold morning they were rutting hard around a clear-cut that I was hunting. Does were trotting through it and I could clearly hear a couple of different bucks grunting. My adrenaline was going and I just knew that at any minute, big boy was going to step out. About 250 yards out I see a doe run across the back corner of the clear-cut and she runs into the woods. I got my gun up to get ready and sure enough a dark-horned buck bust out behind her with his nose stuck out. I tried grunting with my mouth to stop him, but it had no effect. I had all of about 3 seconds to make up my mind. I saw dark horns and tall tines so I made the decision to shoot. I actually heard the impact of the bullet just as he entered the woods.

Well, the shot was a little further back than it should have been and I ended up tracking that deer for two hours. I finally found where he had jumped in a creek with only his nose sticking out of the water, but he was dead. When I raised his head, I could instantly see that the deer wasn't 13" and my excitement instantly turned to extreme disappointment and disgust with myself. At no time did I consider leaving it lay and not claiming it.

As I was dragging the deer out of the woods, I called the local Game Warden and told him what I had done. I told him which hunting club I was on and that I would be at their skinning rack within 30 minutes. He was at the skinning rack when I got there. I ended up only receiving a warning because it was that county's first year to go to the 13" rule. He signed a game transfer form to give me back possession of the deer. He asked about the circumstances regarding the shot. 

I apologize for the long-winded nature of this post, but maybe it will help someone else out in a similar situation. The thing that made me feel really bad about this event, was that I had let two separate bucks that were easily legal walk already that year. I got caught up in the moment and made a mistake.


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## southtxhunter (Feb 1, 2005)

Our local GW's stance is thing are gonna happen...BUT if something does happen Call me right then and there. If I catch you I won't listen just give a ticket, but if he's called first he'll listen and see where it goes. He's a straight shoot and doesn't bs around, yet he's still understanding. He doen't like it when people just try and get away with it....


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## kim e cooper (Feb 18, 2006)

Trouthunter said:


> Oh it's a long way from expiring and 3-years ain't that long...if they let it expire then people would start shooting the first buck they see and your age class of your deer will go back to 1.5-2.5 years old.
> 
> It works if you'll let it.
> 
> TH


 Feel the same way i live in Fayette and it works if you let it, if you do shoot one under GOD will forgive you.


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> I know this is an old topic, but I thought that I would add my 2009 experience as it is relevant to the subject.
> 
> I was on a lease in Angelina County in East Texas. Typical east Texas timber company lease, and rarely saw bucks. When you did see them, they were usually moving pretty quick behind a doe. On a clear cold morning they were rutting hard around a clear-cut that I was hunting. Does were trotting through it and I could clearly hear a couple of different bucks grunting. My adrenaline was going and I just knew that at any minute, big boy was going to step out. About 250 yards out I see a doe run across the back corner of the clear-cut and she runs into the woods. I got my gun up to get ready and sure enough a dark-horned buck bust out behind her with his nose stuck out. I tried grunting with my mouth to stop him, but it had no effect. I had all of about 3 seconds to make up my mind. I saw dark horns and tall tines so I made the decision to shoot. I actually heard the impact of the bullet just as he entered the woods.
> 
> ...


Had a 141 B&C killed off our lease a couple of years ago. His inside was just under 13". Lot of old deer with tall,huge mass racks running around where we hunt. No matter how old they get they will not get wide enough.

I have a 150 B&C killed off the same lease that only has a 14" inside. No way I would ever let that buck walk because he was close. He was a 220lb brute. Hard to let old bucks with huge mass walk by just because of width.


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## anywaterfisher (Jun 17, 2010)

same thing happened to us last year. A very mature six point was running a bunch of does and running a bunch of " legal bucks off the place" we dont have mld tags but we had plenty of pics of this deer at all the feeders. He was very tall, had no brow tines, lots of mass and was very body heavy. We took the pics to local GW and asked him about the deer. The deer was estimated to be about 6 1/2 and we were given the green light to take him out. My wife shot the deer, and we had him aged at over 8 yoa. pretty cool. So there are and can be exceptions to the rule, remember although it may not always seem so, GW are human too, they just have a job to do, like the rest of us.


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## Chunky (Oct 15, 2006)

The best part of this thread are the posts where game wardens have used their good judgement to make the right call. 

The AR law will accomplish what it is designed to do, it has worked in several other places as well (PA).

I am glad that hunters who make a reasonable mistake, and not intentionally breaking the law, can sometimes get a pass and that it is possible to take out mature deer that should be culled with permission.


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## pintail74 (Jul 26, 2007)

I know the warden in my county well , and have talked with him about it. He is reasonable about it and gives a little "fudge" factor. I think the same could be said of most wardens. Most wardens are hunters too, they know how it goes.

But be nice, if your an a-hole to them, you can probably count on a ticket.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

we have had the horn rule for several years now in Lampasas , son had the chance to shoot 2 very legal 8pts and a realy young legal 10 point last weekend, that would have never happened 5 years ago, it does work.

call the GW tell him what happened and where you are up front, but don't use it as a crutch to take an illegal deer.


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## cap9059 (Nov 13, 2008)

I got checked by GW with a mature 8 that was 12 1/2 inches wide. I was told it was a mature and was close enough. Not sure if he would have had the same attitude if it was 2 1/2 yo.


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## Del Magic (Mar 19, 2008)

I used to hunt in Bastrop county with my friends back in the late 90's and I shot a spike once. We must have put a hundred miles on that deer showing him off. One friend did kill a 10-point that went 131 and everyone told him he would never kill a deer like that in this county again. Well it's 2010 and he shot 139 11 point this year. I am seeing more deer and bigger deer than ever before. I can remember when I found a deer track I would make my dad come look at it. Now he sees three bucks behind the house all the time. Also our place ain't the 777 so I would love to have a 200 lb. 10-point with a 12'' spread breed does for the rest of his life. Remember his genetics are only half of it. The doe might have had a monster buck for a dad. As to the age, if people can't tell how wide he is by looking at the antlers how are they going to age him consistantly? Anyways it works, I've seen it.


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## elephantitus (Dec 2, 2010)

What if you want to take a freak horn buck out of the pasture, while you are on property that you lease. One side of the horns is a normal main frame 8, so hes got a normal side of 4 points. The other side his brow-tine goes up but after that the main beam drops down the side of his face and makes his way out in front of his face where he has tines going off like roots of a tree. Would that be classified under the 13" rule or do you take a measurement of the furthest part between left and right antlers? My buddies dad does not plan to shoot anything and they have a freak horn just like that they got on camera. What would you say for them to do? Take a picture to the ranch manager and see what he can do? Ask game warden to make sure its legal or not...?


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## lovethemreds (Mar 23, 2005)

*You mean like this one?*

This was shot in Grimes County. It was just under 13" spread or 15" spread depending on where you measured him. This was the first buck that a buddy of mine ever took. I am glad he made this shot as this deer needed to be grounded. Got checked by Game Warden and all he said is great kill.


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

southtxhunter said:


> Our local GW's stance is thing are gonna happen...BUT if something does happen Call me right then and there. If I catch you I won't listen just give a ticket, but if he's called first he'll listen and see where it goes.


This is exactly how the game wardens in northern Polk County have advised us, and with an 8 mile dirt road to exit you can take the chance on getting an illegal deer out, but you better not get caught because they are gonna give you the MAXIMUM fine and confiscate your deer. On a seperate note about the rule in general, I do not think you are gonna be watching and passing 14" and 16" deer regularly, unless you are on large parcels of private land---not timber company land. Why is this, because the broken horn 10" 6pt are being whacked as legal deer on hunting clubs all over East Texas timber company land, I can't tell you how many I have seen the last 2 years---and I always wonder how many have been smacked with a hammer to break an antler and then rubbed with dirt to make it look "natural". rs


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## Screeminreel (Jun 2, 2004)

silver reflections said:


> I personally would like to see this rule expire. There may be people out there that see really big bucks, but where I hunt, it is like a needle in a haystack, a very large haystack. I am tired of watching bucks just walk by and nothing I can do about it. 3 years now, nothing to bring to the table. I could have had one every year otherwise.
> 
> I figure after 3 years, it should have died, but after this year, let's hope it does.
> My 2 cents worth for what is it worth.sad3sm
> ...


When it first went into effect I was not a happy camper, not so much for myself, but for my grandson who had been watching a nice bodies basket rack and we had planned on him taking it out. He was never going to be anything more than he was. Thing is, they opened up does being legal through the Thanksgiving weekend so he got a deer none the less, and was happy.

Now the rule has been effect for a couple of years, and yes we still see a small racked deer on the cameras, but they are young deer, and have much more potential than what we had been seeing. We only have about 120 acres and since we dedicated about 15 of it as set aside, we now have resident deer who stick tight to the area and have even had a couple of does have their fawns right up by the house.

The rule works IMO, and the results are there to prove it. In past seasons it sounded like a civil war going on around our area and stopping by the packing plant you would see so many young deer that had great potential hanging there simply because they had horns. If your in a 13" county drop a doe for the meat, and be happy. The bucks will grow and you WILL see the difference. Right now we have several deer which make the limit as well as several more which don't that are hanging around on OUR little place. In years past we sat out in the blinds hoping to just see a deer with horns.

The best overall guide is the ears in the alert position. It is easy to tell if they clear the ear tips, and if not don't shot. If they DO clear the tips and you DO shoot, then it's an honest mistake and just that. As mentioned if it IS report it, your chances are far better of receiving a slide on the fine, but if not, well your simply asking for it.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Keep this in mind, just because one GW says its OK don't meen the next one you see will, BTW a GWs job is to enforce the law NOT make the law or put their 'spin' on it nor do a Bioligist job. We do have some good ones but there is some JERKS also...WW


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## capt push broom (Oct 27, 2009)

wet dreams said:


> Keep this in mind, just because one GW says its OK don't meen the next one you see will, BTW a GWs job is to enforce the law NOT make the law or put their 'spin' on it nor do a Bioligist job. We do have some good ones but there is some JERKS also...WW


I showed a 7.5old 8 pt to our game warden 2years ago and he said if the deer was not over 13" he would right a ticket. Yes, this GW is a hot head and freshly new on the force. I shot that deer and put a tape on him to see he was 14" and 7.5 yrs of age. The only reason I knew he was 7.5 is that I had pictures for the last 5 yrs.....I have seen a few more deer like him that are mature and not going to make 13"......


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## Hullahopper (May 24, 2004)

The simple solution: 

Climb into stand and wait for deer to walk out

When deer is spotted, climb down stand walk over to deer and measure horns with tape measurer

If deer measures legal, reverse course and climb back into stand and close door.

Pick up death weapon and shoot deer


On a serious note, I for one have a really difficult time trying to determine a 12.5 from a 13.5 at 150 yards.....just saying! If I can't easily see that the deer is at least 14" I don't pull the trigger. That being said, I unfortunately don't get to pull the trigger very often!


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## Pocboy (Aug 12, 2004)

How about one more success story for the antler restrictions. I was ticked off when they implemented them in Victoria County 4 or 5 years ago, especially since we couldn't kill any does and there just weren't any legal bucks to be seen. Fast forward to this year and I saw more bucks on opening weekend than I've ever seen and was luck enough to take a 154 BC with 16 points. I als saw two other bucks that were definitely legal. Coincidence....maybe, but I don't think so.


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## Tex-Cajun (Sep 14, 2010)

Great info in this thread.

I observed that at 5:15pm it was too dark to get a good read on marginal buck from 130 yards. I have let plenty of deer walk that would be close, but I knew they would be 12" to 12-7/8". 

Looking forward to years to come.


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