# Questions to Answer from City of Sugar Land



## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

City of Sugar Land has asked that we submit a Capital Improvement Program (CIP) Request to them for the track. It needs to come from someone with a S'Land address, so I'll be submitting it, probably early next week. This is essentially the first step in the proposal we've been talkign about, but I'd like to fill in as many gaps as possible. Questions like "what type of improvement" and "provide a detailed description of the location" I have handled. We do have a location in mind, but don't want to post it up until after we submit. But it's easy access from all of Fort Bend County, as well as SW Harris. We met at SH 99/Westpark Tollroad last night and it took me 17 minutes to get back to the site. Water, electricity are at the site already, would just have to be tapped into.

I want feedback on two questions:

1) "Why do you feel the improvement is needed"? I already have large number of RC enthusiasts in S'Land Fort Bend who need a place to run (which keeps the cars otu of the streets, parking lots, etc.), economic benefits to the city, place that children and teens can easily access. It's also an amenity that no other city in proximity has (Harlingen has one, Killeen has one at the base, and they were trying for one in (I think?) Leander, but still not done) and is a positive for S'Land Parks and Rec. If you have other ideas, post them up.

2) "Describe the (sic) your recommended solution". Obviously, we want to build a track, but we need more details. Parking will have to be addressed, I need to get out and look at the site. Previously mentioned water and power. May need some offset for detention, I'm going to take a closer look at the site this weekend. Noise should not be an issue where we're looking, it's surrounded by commercial development. These are all questions I can handle. Insurance is also something we may have to address. Preferable if the City would handle, but there are other options. More difficult is an org to oversee track design and maintenance, insurance (if needed), run races, etc. We hope to make use of the club we already have, if that won't work then we'll have to create a new one. Not quite sure how to approach pit space, whether to shoot for some permanent tables or just bring your own. Anyone know what type of electrical specs we'd need? Ron? Who pays for the dirt and equipment for the build, then later rebuilds, maintenance, etc? Need feedback on this question also. Think ahead, and think about what else we'd need both for play and if we were going to race. Post your ideas up. 

Additional details on insurance. ROAR has been mentioned and we discussed last night. The problem with that is, to be covered you have to be a ROAR member. That's okay, but if you're building an amenity in a public park, how do you enforce it? If you gate it off and restrict access, how do people get out there to play? You have to go to the City and show your current membership, get a key or something? Hassle not only for us, but for the City, which we don't want. If you leave access unrestricted, then you have to have someone there all the time checking membership or run the risk of people that aren't covered using it. There is another option that we'll look at if needed that would cover the track without membership.

One more item, we believe we have a timing system already. Suweet! This is one of the things I'd discussed with Parks last time, and they wanted us to supply.


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## wily (Oct 14, 2005)

I refurb laptops and will supply one for the lap counter. It may not be pretty, but fully functional.

I also know someone that sells insurance if it comes to that.

Will


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Cool, Will. Not sure if you were there when we talked about insurance last night, but I think Mark had the solution. If there's a company that specializes in this type of insurance, that's primo. I remember you saying you could furnish the laptop, that's awesome. I have a call in to Parks and Rec now to see how much detail they're looking for in this CIP so I know how far to take things.


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## cypressvendetta (Nov 9, 2008)

If more computers or even a PA System is needed I have that covered


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## Todd_44 (Dec 2, 2008)

Chris, not sure if they do this type of thing but K&K insurance is who pretty much every 1:1 track in the country uses. They might do RC stuff too.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Thanks Todd. CD has a link on his site, I haven't looked to see who it is yet. Best case is that the City insures, which I think is pretty doable. Since we're talking right now about going into an existing multi-use facility, it's already insured. My guess is it only becomes an issue if the underwriter doesn't like the use you're adding. IMO RC is less risk than what's already going on, but just want to be prepared if needed. Had about a 1/2 hour phone conversation with Sugar Land Parks today, extremely helpful, really helped me with what to focus on.


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

Back when ANTR was still around, Kyle Sokool and I were good friends and he used to tell me about his parks and recreation track that they would race and practice/have fun at in Clearwater, FL. From the pics I recalled, it was more than just an RC park, they had a near by playground, walking trails and had even built a pond for fishing and boating. Not sure that the city is ready to do all this, but, I think the idea would be to consider it as a multi-use facility and not JUST an RC park to get the city to buy off on it. To me, you make other ammenities available and the council or whoever votes on it will not look at it as just one kind of place.

Case in point, think about the Velodrome over in Katy near Barker Cypress - that park has soccer fields, baseball fields, playgrounds, plus a picnic area for BBQing. I'm sure someone originally wanted a Velodrome first and probably pitched a similar story line of getting bikers off the road and that competition could be held, etc. But notice that the park was not just the Velodrome.

So, when they ask, why do you "feel" the improvement is needed, you have to pull on the compelling story from all aspects. In that particular location, what is the nearest park and recreation area that is not part of a neighborhood? What is the closest facility? How many people in that area could be potentially served by it? Is there a large teen or kid loitering issue in the areas surrounding the area? Would this give those teens or kids a place to go hang out that should be a safe and fun place? etc. I think getting the answers to those things, while toting the RC park/track line will lead you in the right direction.

As for #2, they are assuming that when you "feel" there is a need for improvement that means that you believe there is an "issue" or a "problem" or "pain point" that you need to "solve." With that, they want a visionary picture of how you recommend the city to address this "issue" and what the area would look like. You basically answer all of the "issues" and points you raise in #1 with a consolidated response that creates this park and recreation area.

I know that probable gets you none of the "answers" you are looking for, but hopefully that focuses you in the right direction bro.

PD2


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## Tol Thomas (Feb 18, 2005)

Also remeber that most insurances will require the track to have a fence that will contain the vehicles(otherwise they have to provide possibly insurance for spectators which raises premiums a lot more). These are all types of improvements you need to consider, also it must conform to the handycapped(if it falls into their ordinances) as well, that means a ramp to specs(1" drop per 12" of run, this raises the cost of initial investment as well). To also make it more effective, make sure to mention that locals are willing to donate equipment and the time to do the work and labor so that does not fall under the cities budget. Look into seeing if people can contatc local companies and see if they will help by donating for the project and to once again reduce the cost to the city. Propose it to the local companies that it will help bring in revenue to their businesses from all around the city/state/country(if hold large races). The less you require from the city the easier it will be to get their support. 

Others have already covered the main questions. These might have already been covered as well but thought I would just voice an outside eye in too. One other item if not already there would to suggest a small playground(swing and slides) for the younger children of the families who race(that is if they are not already located close to the area your looking at). This will reduce their risk of getting injured from the racing cars on the track since they will be playing in a seperate location away from the cars.


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## SwayOveride (Aug 12, 2004)

Another idea is to look for grants for this facility. They are out there all you have to do is find them and apply. This way very little money comes out of the Cities budget for this or next fiscal year, and very little money comes out of individuals pockets. 

Mainly all I do is criminal justice and law research but I will look and see if I can find any grants out there that apply and are available.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Thanks Tol and Lloyd. Tol is correct, drivers stand, etc. will have to meet ADA stds. Good idea anyway, but it will have to here. Fenced is good, kicking around the idea of a covered or enclosed facility in my head even. More cost up front, but saves wear and tear on the dirt. They said I don't have to get into those types of details for the CIP request, but they're helpful to have b/c if they like the proposal and want to go forward it's the next step. Lloyd, LMK what you find on grants.

Looked at the site on Sunday. Really good for a lot of reasons. One of them is that it's in or adjoining an existing multi-use facility, so the amenities Tol talked about are already there. All appears to be upland, don't forsee any costly permitting issues. I'll start writing the CIP tonight, it will take several days to get it done. Still need to see how we're going to structure an org to essentially be the parent for the track, more on that later. There are a few good options, trying to see what will fit best. Beyond finally answering that question, I think we're going to have a really strong proposal.


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

You know what just popped in my head. We could actually have a place for on road as well. If the spot you're looking at has a large enough parking lot. Similar to Tom Bass. We could have a place for both settings, just some cones to section it off on the days the on roaders are there. 

I know it's a little premature to think about that but, it could be another reason to add to the list of reasons why it could be good for the city. Have a small section of the lot asphalted and smoothed. Two genres of racing. Appealing to more than one type of racer as well. 

Just a random idea.


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## nolatron (Feb 18, 2009)

I think getting a simple practice/bash track should be the goal initially.

A covered track, covered pits, on road tracks, races, timing systems, etc... shouldn't even be thought about yet until we get the land to use. Then you can start pitching improvements for future year budgets.

I'd hate to see this whole idea shot down because we ask for way to much up front. If you tell them it'll cost $10,000 for what we "want" or $2,000 for what we need, all they'll probably see is that big $10,000 number and shoot it down.

Keep the proposal simple. Let's get the "needs" first, (aka: land and dirt) and then we can think about all the "wants".


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Building an on-road track is poor cost-benefit. Not nearly as many on-road guys, and the track costs 4 times as much. Parking lot might work, but this is a busy parking lot and has to serve as parking for a variety of uses. Who pays the bill if someone's $75K Mercedes takes a runaway fuel car in the door? And I don't know how you'd fence the lot. Those are questions City would ask. Bucky has told me in the past that his landlord would let them section off a portion of the RC Hobby lot to run on-road. I'll ask him if that's still the case.


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

Well, I just mentioned because it just popped in as I was writing the text. I didn't know about the RC Hobby deal. But the 75k Benz collision is still there. More so then.

I really just thought about in order to give the impression that the ultimate goal could be a multiple use area. I also didn't know the area you were thinking so that may be the case as well. I was think of the Tom Bass park system, by the Amphitheatre. Where there is a big area that doesn't get much traffic through it.

With this local stimilus packages they may be a little more willing to allow for small things to happen. The city budget is public record right? My gov't accounting class was a few years ago.


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

Ok, they are sechuled to have a surplus this year...lol. If RC Hobby is located in S. Land. I believe it is, this track would be another way to generate some more sales tax for that area. Instead of the racer going to Bellaire or Porter for example the closest shop is there in S. Land ie more sales tax in the same area. Equating to more local revenue.

Sorry guys I am a sales tax auditor, so I know they could use the extra 2%. The idea would be that the cost to benefit would be more in S. Land favor.


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## sleebus.jones (Feb 19, 2009)

cjtamu said:


> kicking around the idea of a covered or enclosed facility in my head even. More cost up front, but saves wear and tear on the dirt.


Figure it's a track of 180' x 70'. That would be 12,600 square feet under cover. A tropical shelter is going to run you in the neighborhood of $30/sq ft, so you're looking at $378,000.

You're probably also going to need ~300 cy of dirt, and at around $9 a yard, that's another $2,700. If you want the track to last, you need select fill, not just spoil that's filled with vegetation from some other dig. So, it's going to take a long time to recover the cost of that shelter.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade at all. I want this to succeed as much as anyone here. We've (KatyRC.org) run this route before and I'm just sharing what happened to us in the past when we made suggestions. I'd hate to see us go down that road and miss this chance we've got. Granted, we may not be as gov't savvy as others, but just trying to have a "lessons learned" here.


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## sfleuriet (Nov 12, 2008)

Chris, I hope you guys can get something going. I could see myself heading down that way every now & then. Myself and a few others tried this with Belton, Temple, Waco, and Bruceville and never got very far. Insurance was definitely one of the major roadblocks.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

$30 sq. ft. for canopy? That would kill that idea for sure. But I know Katy Parks has basketball courts that are covered, and S'Land has other facilities that are covered. I can't imagine they shelled out $30/foot for them though. What's a tin building like the one K&M was in cost, LOL? 

Ksto, love to have an on-road track, just telling you what the City will worry about if we tried it in a praking lot. And asphalt tracks are expensive to build. I talked to Bucky a little while ago and he's behind the idea of a track. Getting close on having a local organization (umbrella under an existing club) to be the sponsor for it also, that's the last piece before we can submit the initial request.


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

CJ, yeah I see what you're saying about the On-Road. This construction would go under the improvements funds right? Being a sales tax auditor I think if we throw in the sales tax increase for that local area through RC Hobby could be an additional avenue to use. Not sure if that's in your idea book or not. Sure it is though, I guess I should re-read the proposal. That could be an imidiate impact.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Yeah, benefit to a local merchant (RC Hobby) and the resulting sales tax increase is already part of the consideration for the proposal. As are benefits to other local merchants (gas, food, etc.). That's what's so beautiful about it. Even if people come from outside S'Land to use the track, it benefits Sugar Land.

I'm going to throw this out there, since it looks like we can make it work. We are trying to umbrella under HARC. What we'd do is create a Ft Bend Chapter of HARC, since it's better for us if the sponsoring body is more local. Along with promotion of the RC Hobby in Fort Bend, one of the functions of the Ft Bend Chapter would be to provide oversight/maintenance of the RC track in S'Land if we get it. Working out details with CV right now. I'll get in touch with the Ft Bend guys after and we'll add the HARC guys who also live in Ft Bend to the rolls for that chapter. In the end I think it helps HARC, which is good, and it's an obvious benefit for us.


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## sleebus.jones (Feb 19, 2009)

cjtamu said:


> $30 sq. ft. for canopy? That would kill that idea for sure. But I know Katy Parks has basketball courts that are covered, and S'Land has other facilities that are covered. I can't imagine they shelled out $30/foot for them though. What's a tin building like the one K&M was in cost, LOL?


Something like that would be in the $50/sf range, minimum. Concrete floor, high roof, all that adds up. It's not cheap. Not only that, but as you get smaller, your cost per sq ft goes up, because the mobilization/demob costs start becoming a larger portion of the work. The contractors _will_ get their money!  Just FYI, I work as an estimator in the petrochemical industry, so I deal with these costs on a daily basis.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Had no idea the construction costs were that high for something so simple. Geez! All my estimating deals with digging a hole and filling it back up again or getting a building ready for demo, LOL. I just had a client demo a metal building, wish I'd know. Glad to know you can get select fill for $9 yd though, that's better than I've been doing.


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## sleebus.jones (Feb 19, 2009)

Well, unfortunately, the $9/cy doesn't include delivery charge. About 6 months ago, they were tacking on a $90 fuel surcharge for delivery.

Yeah, the building is simple, but medium weight steel installed cost is averaging $5,000/ton. The city doesn't have the craft/equipment to install buildings like that, so they are going to subcontract it, which is the basis for the pricing above. Then you need site prep which means cutting about 6" of topsoil off, and backfilling/compacting with at least a foot. Then you've got, excavation, rebar, concrete and embeds for the footings for the shelter. Concrete is going for around $1,300/cy installed. You'll want lighting too, so you've got that cost. I'm not even including niceities like a driver stand, track border and fencing, etc. These costs add up much faster than you want!


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

Well, if its done in phases would that make a difference in appeal to the city? Phase one lay the foundation along with the track and driver stand. P-2 could be the preparation of a canopy or all the other nicities. Some of the dirt skimmed off could be recycled back into the track.


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## GoFaster (May 4, 2005)

I would start by asking for a big plot of dirt and materials for a driver's stand. Maybe they can add "improvements" every year in the budget?


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## GoFaster (May 4, 2005)

When I was in Alaska, we had a public track. The racing club kept it up and built any structures required. We used our money from race fees to purchase our materials. We even purchased a timing system with our race fees. Believe it or not, we had 40-50 entries every week. That's running onroad during the winter in a gym, and running offroad during the summer at the public track. Both places were free. All this work done by "the club" required someone to give up lots of their own time. The leader of the club in this case was the guy that ran the local hobby shop. It was beneficial to him for obvious reasons. He never complained and we raced every week. Awesome!


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

GoFaster said:


> I would start by asking for a big plot of dirt and materials for a driver's stand. Maybe they can add "improvements" every year in the budget?


I don't ever see us askign for a $350K+ improvement, LOL. Got to be a cheaper way. Lost count of how many clients I've had buy property with big tin buildings/barns on them, and in the end they just get demoed. Maybe something like that would work.


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

I say lets just focus on a plot of land first, and have them smooth out a piece of the track to build the stand on. Or attach some stairs to a storage container...lol. instand stand.


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## sfleuriet (Nov 12, 2008)

GoFaster said:


> When I was in Alaska, we had a public track. The racing club kept it up and built any structures required. We used our money from race fees to purchase our materials. We even purchased a timing system with our race fees. Believe it or not, we had 40-50 entries every week. That's running onroad during the winter in a gym, and running offroad during the summer at the public track. Both places were free. All this work done by "the club" required someone to give up lots of their own time. The leader of the club in this case was the guy that ran the local hobby shop. It was beneficial to him for obvious reasons. He never complained and we raced every week. Awesome!


Was that in Anchorage by any chance?


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## Tol Thomas (Feb 18, 2005)

Hand rails and a ladder on a 40' container would be best for the container would also be used for a storage for the track equipment needed to maintain the track by the Club. It could be baught or donated and would have no responsibility of the city. So that makes for an even lower start up budget.


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

think i should have been a contractor............lol


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## xtermenator (Dec 14, 2007)

Have you all ever heard the old saying about putting the cart before the horse? Getting a city to foot the bill for a place like Mike's would be awsome, but in the current market do you really think thats even a remote possibility? If there is that many people in the area that want a track start out asking for the area and then let the people that run there build and improve the track. If someone just comes once in awhile see if there can be a small user fee. The full timers may pay more in money and muscle but they are also the ones using it the most. 
Common sense tells you that the less the city has to pay for the better the odds of getting a place to start.
Was Rome built in a day?
I hate to sound so negative but I am reading these threads talking about things that will cost the city 10's to 100's of thousands of dollars. You guys in the area need to get an ok for an area and then start pooling your resources together to get it built.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

i agree on a logical level. but hey the city pays for covered areas for skating and more mundane things. the rule is you ask cuz you never know you just might get it, and worst case is they just say no. For all we know sugarland might get bailout money and need to spend it to "boost the economy". Not saying i agree with all that or not but doesnt hurt to ask either way


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## xtermenator (Dec 14, 2007)

No kidding crazier things have happened. I hope they get a place. The Houston area needs more tracks. I think alot of guys would chip in some money to help once a place is available.


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

I believe the idea is to get the city on board to have a track at a park, basically. To have a basher/practice site closer to home rather than 2 hours away. Not to have a "Mike's" on the west side of town.


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## sleebus.jones (Feb 19, 2009)

Tol Thomas said:


> Hand rails and a ladder on a 40' container would be best for the container would also be used for a storage for the track equipment needed to maintain the track by the Club.


Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking. I think used ones can be had for $2,000 or so. You can just slap it on the ground, but you'd probably want to excavate about a foot down, and 4' - 5' out and fill that with crushed stone for a solid base, maybe some geogrid or other geotextile under it, which would keep it from sinking into the mud. Excellent idea, driverstand and storage all in one shot.



xtermenator said:


> I hate to sound so negative but I am reading these threads talking about things that will cost the city 10's to 100's of thousands of dollars. You guys in the area need to get an ok for an area and then start pooling your resources together to get it built.


I think that's exactly what's being discussed here, and the last two pages have pretty much said that...let's get the land and some dirt and *then* we can think about improvements.


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## GoFaster (May 4, 2005)

I don't think you will see many containers sitting around Sugar Land parks. lol This is not Porter guys. haha

Yes, it was Anchorage.


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## sleebus.jones (Feb 19, 2009)

GoFaster said:


> I don't think you will see many containers sitting around Sugar Land parks. lol This is not Porter guys. haha


Yeah, that is one problem -- they are unsightly in a park. I suppose something like that could be clad with siding, but that adds extra expense, and now you have to maintain the siding. :headknock


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

Well, maybe if we paint it real nice and do a little landscaping around it....lol. And call it a ready-made building or something.


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## sfleuriet (Nov 12, 2008)

GoFaster said:


> Yes, it was Anchorage.


That's cool, I've been to that track & hobby shop


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Getting close. Picked up 70 signatures from RC Hobby this morning, I think that puts us over 100 in just 1 1/2 weeks or so. Should have the proposal ready in a couple days.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Jeeezzzz&#8230;&#8230;hurry up Chris! Don't you know we're ready for it to open up already!?!?!?

Put your real work aside, and get to the important stuff!


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

LOL. I know, I took 2 days off last week for Spring Break too! Of course, all that means is that I have to cram 5 days worth of work into 3 'cause I have a ton of work to do right now, LOL. Taking a break from working on a TXDOT proposal and keeping you clowns informed right now, ha ha ha. I'll send you a doc tonight too.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

The Capital Improvement Request (CIP) has been submitted to the City of Sugar Land. Thanks to everybody who helped. Here's the text if you want to read it:

*What type of improvement is needed?*

We request the construction of a City-owned radio control (RC) off-road automobile track in a public park.

*Why do you feel the improvement is needed?*

Sugar Land is home to a large number of RC car enthusiasts. The population is diverse, ranging from elementary age school children to professional people such as engineers, consultants, and developers, to retirees. An estimate by the owner of the local hobby shop (RC Hobby Shop in the Gerland's Center) places average transactions at more than 100 per day. Hobby shops in the general area that have tracks attached do an even higher volume of sales due to increased traffic. Until recently, RC car enthusiasts were allowed to utilize a City-owned BMX track in Lost Creek park as a place to run their vehicles. However, the BMX track has been closed to the RC community. This leaves a large number of Sugar Land residents, particularly youths and others who do not drive, without a convenient venue in which to pursue their hobby. First and foremost, a track is needed in the City of Sugar Land to address this situation. These are "Hobby Grade" RC vehicles that are high performance (both fuel and electric), and customizable. At this level of performance, a formal track is not only more enjoyable for enthusiasts but provides a safer venue than operating on public streets, easements, levees, etc. Having a local track also gives young and novice hobbyists a chance to meet experienced RC enthusiasts. As mentioned previously, these are high-tech scale race cars, and they have as much adjustability as a full size race car. Many sponsored drivers began in the hobby at a young age, and went on to get engineering degrees and work either in R&D for the hobby companies or in other engineering fields. A local track is a great benefit for the newer hobbyists, who can learn valuable mechanical, tuning, and driving skills from people that have been in the hobby for many years. Land values in Sugar Land preclude the development of a privately owned track, leaving the City best equipped to address the issue, as a publicly owned track would not be subject to the property sale and lease issues that have caused the loss of area tracks in the last few years. Obviously, the track will also be used by residents of cities other than Sugar Land; however, there are benefits to be derived from such use.
​Currently, the nearest track is located at M&M Hobby Center. M&M is located in the City of Houston, at Bellaire and Chimney Rock, approximately 30 minutes from Sugar Land. The track is in disrepair, and although sometimes used for play/practice, it is rarely used for racing. The track is also limited by the store hours, and the fact the store is not open on Sundays. In an unfortunate coincidence to the closing of the Sugar Land BMX track, the owner of M&M is currently finalizing plans to lease a portion of his property as a parking lot for a nearby office building. When the lease agreement is finalized, the off-road track will be demolished and paved. When that happens, the nearest tracks to Sugar Land will be in Brazoria, Texas and Porter, Texas, both approximately a one hour drive from Sugar Land. Another drawback to the existing tracks is that they are not generally suitable for the smaller 1/10 scale vehicles. This is a particular drawback for younger enthusiasts, as the 1/8 scale vehicles are more expensive, and many youths (or their parents) initially purchase 1/10 scale vehicles due to the lower costs. With the closing of the Lost Creek BMX track to RC traffic, there is not a 1/10 scale suitable track within 3 hours of Sugar Land (the nearest is in Round Rock, Texas). There is also a sizable group of 1/5 scale (larger RC vehicle) enthusiasts in Sugar Land and Fort Bend that do not have a suitable location. RC Hobby shop estimates more than twenty 1/5 scale drivers in the area already, and the numbers are increasing. 

As a secondary consideration, the existing tracks are not only difficult to get to (particularly for younger participants), they pull revenue from the City of Sugar Land. Two of the tracks have well-stocked hobby shops, and a "mobile" hobby shop is generally present at the third. RC enthusiasts who frequent a track will replace necessary items for their RC cars (fuel, broken parts, etc.) at local hobby shops, eat at least one meal (often with their families) at or near the track, and refuel their transportation near the track. With practice sessions lasting 2-4 hrs and races 5-10 hrs, their wives and family often spend the day at local shopping centers. Sugar Land residents travelling to out of town tracks means lost revenue for local businesses, as well as a decrease in sales tax revenue to the city. A Sugar Land track would not only keep local enthusiasts in Sugar Land, it would bring in revenue from Missouri City, Katy, and other areas of Fort Bend County, as well as Houston and the surrounding area. In approximately 2 weeks prior to submission of this proposal, more than 100 signatures in support of a publicly-owned Sugar Land RC track were obtained on sign up sheets placed in Sugar Land RC Hobby Shop.

Local races in the Houston Metro area are conducted once a month by Houston Area Radio Control (HARC). For the past 6 months, attendance at HARC races has averaged more than 65 entries. HARC collects no money or fees for organizing and promoting these races. Under the current HARC rules, race fess are set at $15 for Novice racers, and $25 for others. At the end of the race, $5 of the entry fee goes to the top three finishers in each class. The remainder of the entry fee goes to the host track. Even using a conservative estimate of 50 entries, this results in $1,000 going to the host track. In the case of a City owned track, this revenue could be used as an offset to construction, maintenance, and other costs. The HARC races generally rotate between three area tracks, meaning four races a year at each track. At the current time, races are held at only two area tracks, as a third suitable venue is not available. HARC has expressed a willingness to host races at a Sugar Land track if one is constructed. In addition to revenue for the City from a portion of the entry fees, these races generate revenue for local businesses. Racers are at the track from 08:00 AM to approximately 7:00 PM, and generally eat, refuel, and socialize in proximity to the track. Larger, "regional races" are also available from year to year on a per bid basis. Texas has hosted five such races this year already, with an average attendance of more than 150 entries. The first regional race in the general area (RC Pro Series State Race in Porter, Texas) drew 180 entries. Besides the expenditures mentioned previously, these larger races generally require at least a one, and often a two, night stay in a nearby hotel. In 2005, the City of Harlingen, (owner of Texas' only known publicly-owned RC track), in conjunction with Gears RC (Harlingen's local RC club) hosted the ROAR Off-road Fuel Nationals. The event brought more than 250 racers, along with families, pit crews, and corporate sponsors from across the nation to their city of 50,000 for a four day event.

As an additional note, many of our members have been involved in promoting, hosting, and participating in charitable/fundraising RC races. The most notable are the yearly race for the Marines Toys for Tots drive (each participant brings a toy for a discounted entry) and two RC races held for the benefit of Shriners Hospital for Children. The last Shriners benefit was held in partnership with the RC Pro Series, and raised in excess of $5,000 for Shriners Hospital. Through the partnership with RC Pro Series we were also able to arrange the donation of twelve 1/18 scale off-road cars (suitable for indoor use also) that were presented to Shriners Hospital. The presentation was covered by a national RC magazine with full color pictures of the children running the cars on a course set up in the hospital. Although these events do not generate revenue in the traditional sense (once track costs are covered, all remaining proceeds go to the recipient), they are a benefit to the community, and a positive image for both the host track and the organization. Plans are in the works to hold a third Shriners benefit in late 2009 to early 2010. We would be more than willing to hold events of this type at a Sugar Land track.

In conclusion, an off-road RC track would be a benefit to City of Sugar Land residents who now have to travel more than 30 minutes (and soon more than one hour) to participate in their hobby after the loss of the BMX track. Sugar Land RC Hobby Shop would benefit from increased sales brought in by the presence of a local track, and the City would benefit from the additional revenue from money spent in Sugar Land by both residents and non-residents.

*Provide a detailed description of the location.*

The property we are proposing for use is located on Fort Bend County Key Map page 568N, between approximately the 7800 to 7900 block of US 90-A. The property is located near the northwest corner of the existing Community Center Park. It is just south of the parking area that contains US 90-A frontage, and just west of the disc golf course. The property is bound to the north by the paved parking area, to the east by the disc golf course, and to the west by Ditch H. Lat/Long coordinates for the approximate property center are Lat 29.6139, Long -95.6393. The property is an ideal location for many reasons. It is a suitable size for the proposed amenity. The property is mown and maintained and appears to be entirely upland, minimizing or negating the need for costly permitting. The property is unlikely to require additional drainage, as Ditch H is present to the west, an additional drainage feature is present to the east, and the proposed amenity would require little to no paving so detention capacity would be minimally affected. Water and power are accessible to both the east and west of the property, and restrooms are available within the existing park. An RC track would likely be a benefit to the SLGSA concession areas located within the park as track users became hungry and thirsty. With the exception of the park, the surrounding area is commercial/industrial development, with the nearest residential housing located approximately 0.25 miles east of the site off Spur 58., effectively mitigating potential noise issues. The only current use of the site is as overflow parking for RVs and trailers.

*Describe your recommended solution.*

We respectfully request the City of Sugar Land consider construction of a facility for off-road RC car use in the proposed location. Ideally, the amenity should consist of two areas. One would be a groomed, dirt track suitable for both 1/10 and 1/8 scale off-road RC cars. The track would be similar to a scaled-down BMX track, approximately 150' long by 80 wide'. The second would be a less groomed, grass "play area" with portable jumps and obstacles for the larger 1/5 scale vehicles. The reason for the separation of the 1/5 scale vehicles is that the larger vehicles tend to rapidly wear the jumps on a dirt track, necessitating frequent track maintenance. The proposed 1/5 scale play area would require little maintenance. An approximate 8 foot high, 25' long drivers stand would also be necessary, but with planning the drivers stand could be used for both areas. Electrical connections for charging batteries would also be needed. If the City wishes to construct a track capable of holding organized races (HARC, regional races, etc.) provisions would be needed for a "pit" area, overhead lighting for night racing, and a water supply. The pit area can be as simple as an area in which racers bring their own tables and chairs, as long as they have access to suitable electrical power, and the water supply as simple as a water hose and empty 55 gallon drums for tire washing. There are many options for creating a race ready track, and several of those options can be seen by visiting tracks within the area. Although the original concept was to create a play area, with the recent loss of an area track due a property sale (Pasadena) and the impending demise of another, it seems an optimal time to explore the possibility of building a race ready track in Sugar Land. As mentioned previously, the City of Harlingen constructed a city-owned track that is managed by the Gears RC Club, and has been extremely successful in hosting large regional events, as well as area club races. 

Track design, management, simple maintenance, running of races, etc. would be performed by the Fort Bend Chapter of HARC (FBHARC). As indicated previously, HARC and its member organizations do not retain money in any way. Any profit derived from RC races at the track would be turned over to the City of Sugar Land for use on the track or other Parks projects. FBHARC can provide a timing system and computer for the track for racing, and the personnel to run the equipment and the race. Many considerations in terms of design, maintenance, usage, safety, etc. have also been considered by FBHARC. The best resolution for those considerations depends in some measure on the City of Sugar Land's vision for the track. We look forward to discussing details of the proposed project with the City of Sugar Land and answering any questions you may have.


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## darrenwilliams (Apr 21, 2008)

Very well done


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

darrenwilliams said:


> Very well done


Ditto!

Let me know where you need my help on this Chris.......


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Courtney Vaughan said:


> Ditto!
> 
> Let me know where you need my help on this Chris.......


You know I will CV. Mulling presentation ideas over in my head, hopefully we get to that step.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

I have a PP presenation from the HARC meeting from last year if you want it.......


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

WoW! You da man Chris.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Courtney Vaughan said:


> I have a PP presenation from the HARC meeting from last year if you want it.......


Probably be highly useful to have part of that. A lot will depend on how much time we have and who we're talking to. If they give us enough time I'd like to roll video, show pics, etc. I have the letter from Shriners and the mag article also. We're in a holding pattern right now until we hear from them, then we'll see what we need to do next.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Lots of people, cars, and group photos here:
http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z163/HoustonAreaRC/

Just click on the different rounds on the left. A number of them have large group photos that might help.


Some local videos here:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=HOUSTONAREARC&view=videos


Emailing you the PP file shortly.


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## sleebus.jones (Feb 19, 2009)

Very well done, Chris. I know all of this stuff takes a lot more work than anyone realizes and I thank you for your personal investment of that most valuable commodity, time, in the project!


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Gotta love working with the City of Sugar Land. I called Public Works to see what the process was, and how to check up on the status and see if there's anything else we need to do. They ended up connecting me with the Director of Public Works who spent several minutes answering my questions. You don't get that kind of service from many cities LOL. There is a public meeting that we'll want to have a presence at. There may also be an opportunity to present and answer some questions there also. They're going to call me back with the date and time of the meeting and I'll see what we can do from there.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

cool, give us as much lead time as possible there. We'll want as many warm bodies as possible


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## sleebus.jones (Feb 19, 2009)

Yes, because zombies just won't do. Makes it hard to present with them shouting "braaaaaaaaaains" all the time. :spineyes:

Happy Friday all!


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Here's the scoop. I talked to the engineer in charge of the City of Sugar Land CIP program on Friday. One of the questions the City is asking is how many of the people on the sign up sheets in support of the track, etc. live in Sugar Land. Many people didn't put that info on the sheets, so I sent an e-mail to get it. If you didn't get the e-mail, go ahead and PM me here. Please let me know ASAP if you live in either: 1) Sugar Land, 2) Fort Bend County, or 3) Other. The City knows that people outside Sugar Land will use the track and that's not a problem, but they want to know how many Sugar Land residents might use the track. Please let me know where you live ASAP. Even if you think you've given me the info already go ahead and send to be sure. I'll be calling people that I don't have e-mail for or that gets bounced back because I had trouble reading the handwriting, LOL. Also, if you know anyone who lives in Sugar Land and would use the track, take their kids there, etc. but they have NOT gotten contact info to me, PLEASE ask them to e-mail it to me ASAP. The more Sugar Land residents we have on the list, the better our chances. I think we have a really good shot at getting this track through, so I want to get this info to Sugar Land this week.

One other item. Looks like the CIP Workshop will be sometime in May, don't know the exact date yet. If we have a chance to do a presentation it wil probably be there. Waiting to hear pack from Parks and we'll go forward after that.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Sorry, should have included this. If you're sending info for the first time, please include first and last name, e-mail, and phone no., along with where you live.


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## dakotanut (Apr 6, 2009)

I hope this happens. Will this only be for Sugarland residents or can people from all over the area come and use it?


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

All over.


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## jair (Jul 13, 2007)

do anyone know whats the latest on the track???


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Waiting on the city, and waiting to hear back from some of the people on the list as far as where they live. Will be making calls this week to those that didn't respond to e-mail. This won't be a fast process boys and girls.


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## dakotanut (Apr 6, 2009)

You still have all of my details right? If you need anything else just PM me and I'll get it to you. I'm very interested in this. 2 places to go near me would be awesome.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Nope. Biggest thing we can do right now is get as many S'Land people on the list as possible so I can get it to the city. Anyone you know in S'Land, whether they'd race, or their kids would, or just come out and spectate and get hooked that way LOL.


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## dakotanut (Apr 6, 2009)

No not at the moment. I don't know anyone in Sugarland. If it matters, I grew up there and went to school there.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

cjtamu said:


> Nope. Biggest thing we can do right now is get as many S'Land people on the list as possible so I can get it to the city. Anyone you know in S'Land, whether they'd race, or their kids would, or just come out and spectate and get hooked that way LOL.


Chris. There are over 33,650 folks here on 2Cool. Write something to garner the masses up top and post it up. Or Ill post it and we can play "Tag Team" keeping the thread up near the top. Anyway, you know the drill!


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## Rancid (Apr 8, 2009)

I don't live in Sugar Land, but my driver's license still says I do! :dance:


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Many of you will have this e-mail, but here's the latest. Please continue to look for people who support the project, particularly in Sugar Land. Ask them to PM or e-mail me and I'll get them on the list.

I spoke with the engineer in charge of the Sugar Land CIP this week. The City Council CIP Workshop is May 26. I'm waiting to hear if we can do a presentation there. The meeting is public, so even if we can't present we'll have a few people there to answer questions if they come up.

In other news, I still haven't heard from a lot of people as to where they live. I thought the city would want this info and I asked for it on the sign up sheets, but unfortunately a lot of people didn't see that request. If you didn't put that info on your sign up sheet and you haven't e-mailed or spoken to me about it, PLEASE get that to me. The city has asked for it, and I'm breaking it down into Sugar Land resident, Fort Bend resident, or other. I especially need to hear from Sugar Land residents. The city knows people from other places will use the track, but they'd like a count of how many S'Land residents support it. If you know anyone who would support the track and hasn't signed up already, please have them e-mail me with name, phone number, and city of residence. They don't necessarily have to be into RC. I've had several friends and neighbors sign up because they thought it was a good idea. Probably to keep me from running my cars in the street, LOL. If you have friends and neighbors that like the idea, please have them e-mail me also.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Okay, here's the latest. I sent more names over to the engineer for the Sugar Land CIP Program. He said what would be most helpful is if I could get the Sugar Land residents to fill out a CIP request for the track on-line. Pretty simple to do, doesn't need to be the kind of detail that I did in the original one. Let me go back and look at the original request and I'll post up the location and other pertinent info so people can fill it out easily. I'll post and send e-mail this weekend to all S'Land residents so y'all can fill out the request. I'll also include the link to the CIP request page.


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

CJ,

Is it sounding more and more like these guys in the council or the decision makers will not consider this project unless more S'Land residents want it and request it? I'm just wondering, out loud, if shrouded in this request and paperwork is that the ultimate goal to move this project forward is getting S'Land residents to step up and step out declaring that their tax money be used to build this place? If that is the case, I wonder if the efforts would be better suited/focused on going around to residents in S'Land and getting them to commit to the project and fill out the CIP's, etc.? Maybe do some public demonstrations and talks about what the project is about and see if you can get some more weight behind it from the locals?

Just wondering and thinking as I read over the last few updates.

PD2


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## xtermenator (Dec 14, 2007)

Isn't there a hobby shop close by that could help? Maybe have some kind of registration at the shop for Sugarland residents to sign or the web address for them to go to.


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## gkcontra (Feb 25, 2007)

My work is moving to S-Land in Aug, building is in construction now. I know some coworkers live in the area, so if you post up a link I'll try to get some to fill it out.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Simmer down people. Obviously, the focus for City Council and Parks is on how many Sugar Land residents are interested in the project. Why would it be otherwise? The softball fields, the baseball fields, the BMX track, the soccer fields, all the running trails, etc. were built because Sugar Land residents wanted those amenities. Why would Sugar Land build an RC track if the only people who wanted to use it lived in other cities LOL? It's like any other public project, they want to hear input from the residents they're answerable to. Any support is good support, they know residents of other cities will use the track and will spend their money here, just like the other facilities I talked about. But they still need to see support from S'Land residents. Link will be up this evening and I'll e-mail all the S'Land residents as well. Xtermenator, the signup sheets have been in RC Hobby for over a month. But, the request for on-line CIP submittal is new.


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## xtermenator (Dec 14, 2007)

With all the interest from non-Sugarland residents would it be out of line to propose a $5 or $10 non-resident fee? The little city pool here charges the residents different then non-residents.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

The idea is for it to be fee free for he most part just like every other amenity in every other park. You don't get charged a fee for running or bike riding on the trails, or practicing on the fields, etc. Racing would obviously be different. Cost is not the issue with S'Land. Interest and use from residents is.


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

I thought that would be the case CJ. Sounds like you have access to all S'Land residents mailing or contact info? The only reason I raised it was because it seems like the efforts might be better focused getting residents to agree that having an amenity like this IS beneficial to the City of S'Land. And of course that is where my thoughts led to - how best to make this effort publicly visible so that residents add their name to the list saying this is something they want?

Sounds like you are already headed that way and on top of it. Just thought I'd throw my thoughts out there to help ya bro. It's all good.

PD2


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Here's the deal. City of Sugar Land has asked that supporters of the track who live in Sugar Land go on-line and fill out a Capital Improvements Program (CIP) request. They said this will be the best way for them to track interest within the community. This doesn't have to be detailed like the original submission, so it should only take about 5 minutes. You need to put your name, address, home and work numbers, e-mail, subdivision, and city council district. If you don't know your council district, click on the question mark next to that space and it will list them by subdivision. The City Council CIP meeting is May 26, so we need to get this done ASAP. This is a critical part of the process, so if we want a track, we need to turn in the submissions. Please e-mail or PM me back once you've submitted, because in about a week I'll start calling people I haven't heard from. Also, if you know anyone else that lives in Sugar Land and supports the track idea, please have them submit. Right now I have 46 or 47 Sugar Land residents on my list. If all of us can get one more friend to sign up, we're pushing 100 supporters just in Sugar Land.

I've included a link to the CIP page below, and also the questions from the CIP form and their answers. You can cut and paste to make things easier, or if you have other ideas then use them. Other than the location, that's what was turned in initially LOL. Just fill out all the info, click "Submit" and you're done. You'll get an e-mail confirmation from Sugar Land. Any questions, shoot me an e-mail.

Chris

https://svrch13.sugarlandtx.gov:5202/forms/public_works/cip/cip_app.asp

*Q: What type of improvement is needed?*
A: A radio controlled (RC) car track in a Sugar Land park

*Q: Why do you feel the improvement is needed?*
A: The closest track to Sugar Land is 30 minutes away, but the owner has plans to pave it soon. After that, the nearest tracks are one hour from Sugar Land. Sugar Land has a large population of RC enthusiasts, and the BMX track in Lost Creek Park has been closed to them.

*Q: Provide a detailed description of the location.*
A: The property we are proposing for use is located on Fort Bend County Key Map page 568N, between approximately the 7800 to 7900 block of US 90-A. The property is located near the northwest corner of the existing Community Center Park. It is just south of the parking area that contains US 90-A frontage, and just west of the disc golf course. The property is bound to the north by the paved parking area, to the east by the disc golf course, and to the west by Ditch H. Lat/Long coordinates for the approximate property center are Lat 29.6139, Long -95.6393.

*Q: Describe your recommended solution.*
A: We respectfully request the City of Sugar Land consider construction of a facility for off-road RC car use in the proposed location. Ideally, the amenity should consist of two areas. One would be a groomed, dirt track suitable for both 1/10 and 1/8 scale off-road RC cars. Track design, management, simple maintenance, running of races, etc. would be performed by the Fort Bend Chapter of HARC (FBHARC).


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## GoFaster (May 4, 2005)

The sugar land website didn't work for me. I will try it again later.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Dunno, I just tested the link and it worked for me. Operator error? Advancing years? Ha ha ha.


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## gleingo (Mar 15, 2009)

Mine worked. Completed. See you Fri. night and Sat.


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## kilana (Dec 20, 2007)

No problems with link, but major headache with "Subdivision" and "Council District". My subdivision and/or voting precinct does not appear in the list provided after selecting that "?" on that website. I'm in New Territory (east side of 99 grand prkwy). The precinct maps I found only show New Territory on the west side of 99. Anyway....I'll give it another shot tonight.


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## GoFaster (May 4, 2005)

must be the **** websense/webmarshall **** here at work. I will do it at home then.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Dan, call Sugar Land and see what they say.

Ron, HATE the Webmarshal. It will let me see Evite but not respond. It blocked The Grid suddenly too! But, it also blocked the Microsoft update page as "Harmful and Stealth", so I guess it's good for something ha ha.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

All right, all the hard work and turning in the CIP requests is paying off. Sugar land Parks has asked to meet, so Carl and I will be meeting with them next week. If you live in Sugar Land and haven't filled out the CIP request yet on-line, please get that done soon as you can. I'll let you know where we stand after the meeting.


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## LowBoost (Apr 4, 2009)

cjtamu: I know money is an issue, but maybe this could eventually be used for the on-road track? http://www.roaddome.com


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

We met with Sugar Land Parks this morning. The bad news is, there's just no way to do an RC track in a Sugar Land Park. The location we'd chosen is probably the best one; however, there are some other commercial buildings coming in next door (across the ditch) including a hotel. We looked at all of the available parks space, including some of the parks that are going to be developed in the future. The other parks are too close to residential areas. The nitro cars would just create too much noise to make it feasible in any of the Sugar Land Parks. I think Sugar Land Parks took a hard look at it, but they just don't have a feasible space. No need to fill out the CIP requests for Sugar Land any more, it's just not doable. 

The good news is, they gave us some other suggestions for entities that might have more suitable space. I'm particularly interested in seeing what Fort Bend County might have that we could use. We have more than 100 Fort Bend County residents on the list, so obviously there's a lot of interest. I'll keep looking for suitable spots and will probably contact some of the other cities in Fort Bend also. We may even take a look at some spots in Harris County if they're close by. Stay tuned.


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## darrenwilliams (Apr 21, 2008)

When I used to fly planes, we had a club in Texas City that was county land (Galveston County) so maybe that is a good route to try.

Chris,
Thanks for all the effort you have put into this.


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

I'd say anything that gets you away fromt he residential areas will be good. County land and getting away from those areas where neighbors could complain is a good direction.

You've done awesome Chris! I applaud your efforts and definitely do not think they have been unfruitful - it only gives you experience for the RIGHT place when it happens! Excellent work...keep us informed as you find new potentials.

PD2


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## dakotanut (Apr 6, 2009)

I don't know if this will work or not. There is a place out near me that is a motor cycle track. Yall might want to talk to them and see if they would be willing to install a track. I don't know if they will charge or not but it might be worth a try. It is private land. It's up to yall.


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