# Grandfather shot dead by police while responding to neighbor's burglar alarm



## bassguitarman (Nov 29, 2005)

_I heard about this one on the radio this morning. Dang - be careful out there:_*

FORT WORTH (CBSDFW.COM)* â€" A grandfather checking on his neighbor is shot and killed by Fort Worth police. The shots rang out early Tuesday morning near Woodhaven Country Club, in east Fort Worth.
Those close to the family say the victim lived nearby and heard his neighborâ€™s burglar alarm. Neighbor Jerry Wayne Waller then apparently went outside to see what was going on.
The 72-year-old man didnâ€™t even make it to the house across the street before he was shot. He died on his own property.
The neighbors in the Woodhaven Country Club area and generally know each other pretty well. Becky Haskin, a former Fort Worth City Councilmember, lives in the area and said she believes Waller, â€œâ€¦was doing what neighbors do probably checking on the neighbor that the alarm went off.â€

The elderly man, who was armed at the time, was shot and killed in his own driveway by police responding to a burglary call. â€œWe heard five shots,â€ Haskin recalled. They were just rapid fire one after the other.â€
Speaking on the incident Fort Worth police Cpl. Tracey Knight said, â€œOfficers felt threatened by the man with the handgun and he was shot.â€
After the shooting Haskin said, â€œThe police officers were sobbing uncontrollably and very distraught.â€

For the normally quiet and quant neighborhood, Wallerâ€™s death is devastating. Neighbors say he and his family have always been very involved in the community. â€œThey are just a nice retired couple, that loved working in their yard, having family over, and grandkids,â€ Haskin said.
CBS 11 News has been trying to get more answers from Fort Worth police. The official response has primarily been that the shooting is â€œan ongoing investigation.â€

CBS 11 has learned that the two officers involved were not hurt and have been placed on administrative leave.

Fort Worth Police Chief Jeff Halstead released the following statement regarding the shooting:

â€œThe events that took place the early morning hours on May 28th will require a significant amount of investigative effort; however, we remain committed to working with our residents and making this process efficient and transparent.
I ask for your patience, your understanding, and most importantly, your prayers for all involved.â€

Both officers had been with the Fort Worth Police Department for less than a year.


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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

That's sad. Incompetence is what it sounds like to me seeing there were to officers.


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## Chuck (May 21, 2004)

I find that very difficult to understand...sounds like the officers were trigger happy and an innocent person is dead. Seems its not only the bad guys you have to fear.


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

Im pretty sure if you had verbally comanded the man to stop and put down his weapon, he would have immediately complied. Seems to me the two new rookies got a little excited and jumped the gun. Very sad indeed.


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## BigNate523 (May 19, 2010)

man thats just sad


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## RockinU (Aug 13, 2006)

This sounds all kinds of jacked up to me...


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## Duke (Dec 27, 2007)

Chuck said:


> I find that very difficult to understand...sounds like the officers were trigger happy and an innocent person is dead. Seems its not only the bad guys you have to fear.


I agree with that. Hard to understand....


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

This is really sad news.
They felt threatened?


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## Waymore (Jul 6, 2011)

Chase4556 said:


> Im pretty sure if you had verbally comanded the man to stop and put down his weapon, he would have immediately complied. Seems to me the two new rookies got a little excited and jumped the gun. Very sad indeed.


A little excited don't cut it, their tenure in policework should be over!


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## mustangeric (May 22, 2010)

thats very sad


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## trodery (Sep 13, 2006)

Chase4556 said:


> Im pretty sure if you had verbally comanded the man to stop and put down his weapon, he would have immediately complied. Seems to me the two new rookies got a little excited and jumped the gun. Very sad indeed.


I agree but we must also consider the possibility that the elderly man MAY have been hard of hearing.


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## Mad Mike (Dec 28, 2005)

Waymore said:


> A little excited don't cut it, their tenure in policework should be over!


Completely agree!


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## txranger (Jun 23, 2005)

Very sad indeed. If you take it upon yourself to grab a gun and go out and defend the neighborhood, you may want to put your gun away and identify yourself when the police arrive on scene.


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## michaelbaranowski (May 24, 2004)

I sure how these are officers are really investaged. Almost sounds to murder to me.

Elderly man in his drive way shot 5 times by officers?


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

txranger said:


> Very sad indeed. If you take it upon yourself to grab a gun and go out and defend the neighborhood, you may want to put your gun away and identify yourself when the police arrive on scene.


Oh WOW!
So it is the victim's fault again?


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## RockinU (Aug 13, 2006)

michaelbaranowski said:


> I sure how these are officers are really investaged. Almost sounds to murder to me.
> 
> Elderly man in his drive way shot 5 times by officers?


Well, it sounds like there were five shots fired, dunno how many hit him, but as we know it only takes one...so sad


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## RockinU (Aug 13, 2006)

txranger said:


> Very sad indeed. If you take it upon yourself to grab a gun and go out and defend the neighborhood, you may want to put your gun away and identify yourself when the police arrive on scene.


I guess right now we are waiting to hear if they gave him a chance to identify himself...so far all we know is they "felt threatened"...


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## jdusek (Apr 7, 2006)

Very Sad, I was not there but it sounds to me like the old man would not have pointed the gun at police officers so in no way should they have felt threatened.


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## txranger (Jun 23, 2005)

Actually I'm one of the few on here that hasn't assigned blame to either party. WOW huh.


Whitebassfisher said:


> Oh WOW!
> So it is the victim's fault again?


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## Texasgirl44 (May 18, 2012)

Very sad and tragic. Prayers to his family and friends.


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## capt.sandbar (Aug 31, 2007)

That is very sad... I pray for all involved. This is not something that will easily go away in any of their lives.


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## Bull Red (Mar 17, 2010)

DAs! The world we live in is ate up with 'em. :hairout:


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Its a new world*

25 years ago, cops could generally assume neighborhood residents did not carry guns outside at night. If someone had one at night, he was a bad guy. Now in in this Ted Nugent / Wayne LaPierre concealed-carry Texas environment, every housewife and retired codger has a Glock or AR15. I would imagine that to a cop everyone is a threat in this environment.


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## txranger (Jun 23, 2005)

*Update at 10:34 a.m.: *Former Fort Worth city councilwoman Becky Haskin tells the Star-Telegram that police shot and killed a 72-year-old resident of the neighborhood who didn't drop his handgun. A police report confirms the man's age, and a search of public records confirms that he lived across the street from the house where the alarm went off.
"_I was told by an officer he wouldnâ€™t put his gun down,_" Haskin told the paper. _"It is really an awful, terrible thing."_


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## JFolm (Apr 22, 2012)

Johnboat said:


> 25 years ago, cops could generally assume neighborhood residents did not carry guns outside at night. If someone had one at night, he was a bad guy. Now in in this Ted Nugent / Wayne LaPierre concealed-carry Texas environment, every housewife and retired codger has a Glock or AR15. I would imagine that to a cop everyone is a threat in this environment.


I sure hope they get used to it and stop killling innocent people. Guns aren't going anywhere.



txranger said:


> *Update at 10:34 a.m.: *Former Fort Worth city councilwoman Becky Haskin tells the Star-Telegram that police shot and killed a 72-year-old resident of the neighborhood who didn't drop his handgun. A police report confirms the man's age, and a search of public records confirms that he lived across the street from the house where the alarm went off.
> "_I was told by an officer he wouldnâ€™t put his gun down,_" Haskin told the paper. _"It is really an awful, terrible thing."_


What kind of criminal runs towards a yard with police cars around it? He was across the street in his driveway right?

Sounds like a bad situation.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Weird this should come up. Couple weeks back, my neighbor's car was broken into one night. I heard the alarm sound, but it went off very quickly, so I thought nothing of it. Next morning, neighbor reports his car was broken into and that some other cars in the neighborhood were also broken into. 

So, the following day, I am up pre-dawn because I have a bunch of stuff going on at work. Bout 4:30 a.m., I hear a car alarm go off and it sounds like its next door. Grab my shorty shotgun, and head out to investigate. 

As I am creeping around the corner of the house to peer into my neighbor's driveway area, I see a dark figure in my bushes, but strangely, its heading the same direction I am - towards the neighbor's house. Lookout, I figure. Then, I realize, hey, its the Warden. 

I say to her - what in the world are you doing? You just saw me leave the house with a gun for God's sake. Her explanation - Oh, I was going to help you. 

I then had to explain to her that she really needs to remain behind the man with the gun. Not to the side, not to the front, and never taking an alternative approach path parallel to the man with the gun thru the bushes in the dark. I also suggested to her that she might perhaps consider coordinating her efforts with the man with the gun before I leave the house with a gun to confront criminals. Plus, she might well consider bringing a weapon of her own, rather than just being some sort of bystander in the bushes waiting for a stray bullet. 

So, here we are. Me in undies and croc's holding a shorty shotgun, her in T-Shirt and flip flops, at 4:30 in the a.m. in the front yard discussing the basics of conducting a sneak on some car thieves as a car alarm rings. Any element of surprise is clearly lost at this point. 

In the midst of this discussion, it occurred to me - we really need to get back in the house before we get shot by a neighbor or a cop responding to the incident.


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

That is very very sad and bungling on their part. It should be there duty to make sure even if it mean getting shot themselves. But hey, you know the old saying "shoot first and ask questions later".


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## boom! (Jul 10, 2004)

Johnboat said:


> 25 years ago, cops could generally assume neighborhood residents did not carry guns outside at night. If someone had one at night, he was a bad guy. Now in in this Ted Nugent / Wayne LaPierre concealed-carry Texas environment, every housewife and retired codger has a Glock or AR15. I would imagine that to a cop everyone is a threat in this environment.


Yeah, this type of stuff happens every day doesn't it?


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## Barefoot Boy (Sep 27, 2005)

It's very telling that our Chief Halstead has not even made an announcement. I would think he could at least say, "I'm extremely distressed that this incident occurred, and I've called the TX Rangers in to do a full investigation". 
But NO, only the sound of crickets.
He sure had a quick announcement when the force was accused of picking on the gay-club.


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## capt4fish (Dec 4, 2004)

txranger said:


> *Update at 10:34 a.m.: *Former Fort Worth city councilwoman Becky Haskin tells the Star-Telegram that police shot and killed a 72-year-old resident of the neighborhood who didn't drop his handgun. A police report confirms the man's age, and a search of public records confirms that he lived across the street from the house where the alarm went off.
> "_I was told by an officer he wouldnâ€™t put his gun down,_" Haskin told the paper. _"It is really an awful, terrible thing."_


Butt covering going on right there. What do ya wanna bet that there are no recordings of the officers commands?

Shot dead in his own driveway. Now the cover up will take place.


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## MEGABITE (May 21, 2004)

Johnboat said:


> 25 years ago, cops could generally assume neighborhood residents did not carry guns outside at night. If someone had one at night, he was a bad guy. Now in in this Ted Nugent / Wayne LaPierre concealed-carry Texas environment, every housewife and retired codger has a Glock or AR15. I would imagine that to a cop everyone is a threat in this environment.


Yeah, 25 years ago no one had guns in their home for protection and no one would ever take one out of their house if something was happening at their neighbor's house.

Full of carp, as usual.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Barefoot Boy said:


> I would think he could at least say, "I'm extremely distressed that this incident occurred, and I've called the *TX Rangers* in to do a full investigation".


You didn't see post # 13 ?

It is already finished:


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## coachlaw (Oct 26, 2005)

Johnboat said:


> 25 years ago, cops could generally assume neighborhood residents did not carry guns outside at night. If someone had one at night, he was a bad guy. Now in in this Ted Nugent / Wayne LaPierre concealed-carry Texas environment, every housewife and retired codger has a Glock or AR15. I would imagine that to a cop everyone is a threat in this environment.


Did you really just say this? I don't understand your thought process.


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## Louisiana Longhorn (Nov 12, 2010)

Folks...as a current police officer, I feel terrible about the whole situation. And I would not judge the situation this early. I would just say that as a whole, I don't know a single cop that would want the public that we serve to be afraid of us...the bad guys, yes. But please try to understand that we are here because we chose to serve. I'm sure these guys do feel horrible. I will pray for the victim of this, and for these officers. And, I'm sure they didn't leave their homes to report to duty planning to kill an innocent person. Not trying to start anything...just asking for consideration until all the facts are known.


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## Finfisher (Jul 20, 2008)

Waymore said:


> A little excited don't cut it, their tenure in policework should be over!


AGREED!!!!!
Prayers to the family


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## McTrout (May 22, 2004)

Horrible tragedy no question, but it appears as of yet nobody has any details. I could never be an LEO. Prayers to all parties involved.


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## bentup (Apr 23, 2013)

Sound like their law enforcement careers are going to be short lived. Rightfully so.


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## Operationduckhunt (Aug 23, 2011)

Louisiana Longhorn said:


> Folks...as a current police officer, I feel terrible about the whole situation. And I would not judge the situation this early. I would just say that as a whole, I don't know a single cop that would want the public that we serve to be afraid of us...the bad guys, yes. But please try to understand that we are here because we chose to serve. I'm sure these guys do feel horrible. I will pray for the victim of this, and for these officers. And, I'm sure they didn't leave their homes to report to duty planning to kill an innocent person. Not trying to start anything...just asking for consideration until all the facts are known.


Well said


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## Back Bay boy (Apr 7, 2010)

coachlaw said:


> Did you really just say this? I don't understand your thought process.


I agree and I for one am getting tired of the talk about cops have a dangerous job. Dam they signed up for it. BTW anyone of us plant workers run the risk of our shift being our last so that dog will not hunt. The cover up will begin because the cops take care of each other. The fact of the matter is cops are civil servants plan and simple not some kind of community bully.

I know there are good cops out there I am not talking about the fellers who sign on to make a difference.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> 25 years ago, cops could generally assume neighborhood residents did not carry guns outside at night.


BS...25 years ago high school kids still had shotguns and deer rifles in racks in the rear window of their trucks in the school parking lots in rural Texas. Local LEO's would call on help from citizens to help them if needed and it was better help if the citizen was armed.

It's people with your thought process who have made a mess of things.

TH


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## Newbomb Turk (Sep 16, 2005)

^^^^^ This ^^^^^


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

michaelbaranowski said:


> I sure how these are officers are really investaged. Almost sounds to murder to me.
> 
> Elderly man in his drive way shot 5 times by officers?


I could quote many more, but I want to point out the mistake that if someone like myself makes a comment it's misconstrued and read as "you're on the officer's side!" How many posts here have already said these guys don't need to be officers anymore? The hypocrites shine through on a good police bashing thread. And no, I'm not taking sides of anyone...

We're any of us there? NO! Do we know if the man didn't want to put his gun down because By God he was in his own driveway? The officers didn't know he was looking out for his neighbors' property? They see a man with a gun when they arrived on scene, that's it, with probably not too many others facts. Again, we weren't there.

I'm glad none of you work in Internal Affairs. The investigation is based on what the officers knew at the time. How is anyone supposed to know what in the hell is going on when they get on scene to meet an armed man?

And yes, I've arrived on scene and have faced an armed man. And no I didn't kill him. Assumptions will get you killed, but common sense has taken me far.



Louisiana Longhorn said:


> Folks...as a current police officer, I feel terrible about the whole situation. And I would not judge the situation this early. I would just say that as a whole, I don't know a single cop that would want the public that we serve to be afraid of us...the bad guys, yes. But please try to understand that we are here because we chose to serve. I'm sure these guys do feel horrible. I will pray for the victim of this, and for these officers. And, I'm sure they didn't leave their homes to report to duty planning to kill an innocent person. Not trying to start anything...just asking for consideration until all the facts are known.


:flag:


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Where be Quannel and SJL?

Oh wait.....never mind.


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## dan_wrider (Jun 21, 2011)

Some of ft worths finest. Good job fellas.


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## songogetme (Oct 13, 2006)

72 year old man. Probably had his house shoes on. Neighbors said he was a good citizen. Pretty sure sure he knew what a uniformed police officer looks like. But I'll wait for the facts to come out before I form an opinion.


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## Jaysand247 (Aug 19, 2012)

Really sad deal ! I would be hesitant to drop my gun if someone comes running in my garage shining a light in my eyes . No matter who they say they are you can't identify them because they are blinding you . Another reasons to live in the country with a big dog in the yard . I know the trigger happy cop will shoot him first but at least you can figure out what's going on while he's shooting the dog . As far as 25 years ago no one carried guns statement that's bs . If people took care of things now like they did 25 years ago All this thieving wouldn't be going on . But now you have to call the cops to write a report . And say well nothing we can do . Back then you ask around found our who it was and took a axe handle or chain binder to them . Problem solved . Cops should stick to being revenuers .


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## bentup (Apr 23, 2013)

Louisiana Longhorn said:


> Folks...as a current police officer, I feel terrible about the whole situation. And I would not judge the situation this early. I would just say that as a whole, I don't know a single cop that would want the public that we serve to be afraid of us...the bad guys, yes. But please try to understand that we are here because we chose to serve. I'm sure these guys do feel horrible. I will pray for the victim of this, and for these officers. And, I'm sure they didn't leave their homes to report to duty planning to kill an innocent person. Not trying to start anything...just asking for consideration until all the facts are known.


Understandable but what's the excuse for police officers that commit crimes on the clock. Do they wake up in the mornings expecting not to? Just a thought allot of people ponder I'm sure.


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## baitbuckett (Jan 9, 2011)

Poor guy... . Prayers sent for family.


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## Brute (Apr 29, 2009)

Since when do cops just shoot people for holding a gun? Our military... at war in Iraq and other places... can't fire unless they are fired at but a cop in Ft W can shoot a 72 yr old man in his drive way for just holding a gun?


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## boom! (Jul 10, 2004)

Louisiana Longhorn said:


> Folks...as a current police officer, I feel terrible about the whole situation. And I would not judge the situation this early. I would just say that as a whole, I don't know a single cop that would want the public that we serve to be afraid of us...the bad guys, yes. But please try to understand that we are here because we chose to serve. I'm sure these guys do feel horrible. I will pray for the victim of this, and for these officers. And, I'm sure they didn't leave their homes to report to duty planning to kill an innocent person. Not trying to start anything...just asking for consideration until all the facts are known.


Fair enough. Just realize that we as citizens are just as concerned about going home every night just like you guys are.


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## Brute (Apr 29, 2009)

I wish they would just say... 

Two new officers acted hastly to a neighbor holding a handgun in his drive way. They are on leave pending an investigation and a decision on how to handle it.

That is logical and would sit fine with me. A cops job is not easy and even with all the training there will be a screw up. This blame it on the victum the next day **** is what angers me.


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

This kind of thing is nothing new take a look

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/17/andrew-lee-scott-dead_n_1679408.html

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/08/14/cops-kill-innocent-man-mistake

Here is one where they took care of the bud's looking out for each other
http://laist.com/2012/10/24/da_downey_police_acted_lawfully_whe.php

Do not forget not too long ago the LAPD man hunt for Dormer where they were shooting up any and everyone. Remember the blue tacoma

http://politix.topix.com/homepage/4...e-20-rounds-at-women-in-manhunt-for-rogue-cop

This is just very tiny tip of the ice cube. It took me all of 30 seconds to find just these few. There are way too many non-thinking police around that run around with a chip and think they are some sort of elite unit for taking out the bad guys. Personally I think all police should have a 4 year degree and be a normal Joe citizen. The police do not need to be some type of military want-to-be unit. They do not have to practice reactionary drills on old men (or any good citizen) standing in their own yard.


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## the kid68 (Feb 24, 2007)

My thoughts and prayers go out to all the families that are involved in this terrible tragedy. 

For all those who think a cover up is about to happen and the officer's involved will be let of Scott free, I can assure that it is not going to happen. I am sure the Texas Rangers already have a company down there heading up the investigation. No matter what criminal and civil punishments these officers may have imposed on them, it will be nothing compared to having to live with their actions. My grandfather was a police officer for years and before doing that job served in both WWII and Korea. When I first started learning how to shoot he told me one thing to remember "Every person you kill sleeps with you at night". 

As to people who think police officer's should get over worrying about not making it home at the end of their shift, and think they signed up to die for the citizens they protect. I understand that everyone no matter what job they have has a risk of being killed, this is very true with the world that we live in currently, but I don't know of too many jobs where people will kill just because of what you wear to work. This is very much the case for our military and law enforcement official's, and every law enforcement official I know would die to protect those in their community or where ever they might be when evil rears it's ugly head.

Again like I said I don't condone the actions of these officers, but like so many have said before me, we don't know all the facts in this case. It's very easy to Monday morning quarterback a situation, and that is what will going on in this case. Again my thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved. 

I hope no one feels I stepped on their toes, only wanted to add my thoughts.


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## Chuck (May 21, 2004)

"just asking for consideration until all the facts are known"

I dont think we will ever know the real facts...the two cops will get away with murder because the only other person on the scene is DEAD!. They made sure of that...maybe that's why they needed five shots! You can see the current cops lining up in their defense already and another "homicide by cops" is in the books and everybody on the force has a beer and a high five. 
We need a 100 club for innocent civilians.


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## ShadMan (May 21, 2004)

Johnboat said:


> 25 years ago, cops could generally assume neighborhood residents did not carry guns outside at night. If someone had one at night, he was a bad guy. Now in in this Ted Nugent / Wayne LaPierre concealed-carry Texas environment, every housewife and retired codger has a Glock or AR15. I would imagine that to a cop everyone is a threat in this environment.


This is quite possibly the most ignorant and incorrect statement I have ever seen in my 13 years on 2Cool. If anything, there are fewer people who have guns these days with all the libtards (see the quote above) and their anti-gun babble. 25 years ago guns were generally more acceptable (as Trouthunter stated, most kids had them in their gun racks in school parking lots), and I don't know anyone who didn't have one then. Hell, most kids aren't even allowed to have BB guns these days thanks to the libtard, do-gooder, ex-hippies.


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## bearwhiz (Jan 30, 2011)

txranger said:


> Actually I'm one of the few on here that hasn't assigned blame to either party. WOW huh.


X2. But it doesn't take the cop bashers long to jump on their band wagon without a complete investigation.


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## bearwhiz (Jan 30, 2011)

Louisiana Longhorn said:


> Folks...as a current police officer, I feel terrible about the whole situation. And I would not judge the situation this early. I would just say that as a whole, I don't know a single cop that would want the public that we serve to be afraid of us...the bad guys, yes. But please try to understand that we are here because we chose to serve. I'm sure these guys do feel horrible. I will pray for the victim of this, and for these officers. And, I'm sure they didn't leave their homes to report to duty planning to kill an innocent person. Not trying to start anything...just asking for consideration until all the facts are known.


Most common sense comment so far on this thread.


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## Law Dog (Jul 27, 2010)

Very sad and tragic. Prayers to his family and friends.


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## Zeitgeist (Nov 10, 2011)

the kid68 said:


> My thoughts and prayers go out to all the families that are involved in this terrible tragedy.
> 
> For all those who think a cover up is about to happen and the officer's involved will be let of Scott free, I can assure that it is not going to happen. I am sure the Texas Rangers already have a company down there heading up the investigation. No matter what criminal and civil punishments these officers may have imposed on them, it will be nothing compared to having to live with their actions. My grandfather was a police officer for years and before doing that job served in both WWII and Korea. When I first started learning how to shoot he told me one thing to remember "Every person you kill sleeps with you at night".
> 
> ...


Very passionate topic for you, as this is your first post after 6 years.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

I was not there, and don't claim to know all the facts, but I'm willing to speculate that these two officers were a bit trigger happy. What are the chances that the grandfather drew his weapon on uniformed officers? I'd guess that the odds are pretty low. 

There seems to be an us against them mentality in law enforcement today, and many of todays officers appear to be more militant than those that served before them. I believe that officers should have a heightened awareness when dealing with the average John Q. Public, but should not feel threatened simply by an average citizen having a firearm in their possession. This does not necessarily apply to those who appear to be gang members and thugs, I'm talking about your average joe or in this case grandfather. Law enforcement is a dangerous profession, but we cannot accept officers shooting people because they felt "threatened", that's just too much of an excuse to me.

I don't believe that becoming an officer should absolve a person from the responsibility to act reasonably and be punished if they fail to do so. In this case, if the grandfather did not specifically threaten the officers (which I doubt he did), then they should be permanently barred from law enforcement and should face charges of not less than manslaughter. I believe that it should be the law that all officers should face criminal charges for killing a person in error. An officer should not be an executioner, and I fully recognize that sometimes there is no choice but to kill a bad guy, but that's not what I'm speaking to here. Officers need to be held to a higher standard as they are in a position of public trust.

It seems that it is becoming commonplace that officer kill innocent people and pets claiming they felt threatened. Shooting first and asking questions later is not something we need officers doing. 

I'm sure that given the opportunity to do this over, that neither officer would kill grandad again, but that is why they need to be made an example of, because once they kill someone, there is no chance to bring back the innocent dead guy to their families. 

I appreciate those who serve the public within the law, but cannot stand those who think or act as if they are above the law. 

I'm sorry does not cut it in this case, there needs to be accountability.


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

On The Hook said:


> I was not there, and don't claim to know all the facts, but I'm willing to speculate that these two officers were a bit trigger happy. What are the chances that the grandfather drew his weapon on uniformed officers? I'd guess that the odds are pretty low.
> 
> There seems to be an us against them mentality in law enforcement today, and many of todays officers appear to be more militant than those that served before them. I believe that officers should have a heightened awareness when dealing with the average John Q. Public, but should not feel threatened simply by an average citizen having a firearm in their possession. This does not necessarily apply to those who appear to be gang members and thugs, I'm talking about your average joe or in this case grandfather. Law enforcement is a dangerous profession, but we cannot accept officers shooting people because they felt "threatened", that's just too much of an excuse to me.
> 
> ...


Quick question.

How do you tell who is an "average citizen" in a matter of seconds....?

Inquiring minds wants to know.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

teeroy said:


> Quick question.
> 
> How do you tell who is an "average citizen" in a matter of seconds....?
> 
> Inquiring minds wants to know.


Why, do you think everyone is a bad guy? I'm pretty sure that you can determine who is a gang member or thug versus an average citizen without much effort.

Either way, I don't think shooting first and asking questions later is a good policy, do you?

Curious, why is it that when issues such as these are discussed, do you almost always seem to side with the officers or want to give them the benefit of the doubt? Why are their actions not just as suspect as those of the public? I have nothing against you, but you have to know that there are both good and bad cops, just like every other element of society.

Why do you state in a matter of seconds? Situations where seconds are a matter of life or death are a very very small minority of the interactions that officers have with the public. Don't you owe it to society to give possibly innocent people every opportunity and benefit of the doubt before shooting them? Is your life more valuable than an innocent member of society?

Why is it that officers cannot arrest a person who has a restraining order against them just because the person who had it issued thinks they are going to be killed by the other party? They feel threatened. But until the offending party acts in opposition to the order nothing can be done. This plays out all over the country, and often one party kills the other even with the restraining order in place.


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## stdreb27 (Aug 15, 2011)

Wow, we don't know what really happened, but cops entering the wrong home, shooting the homeowner, who's disturbed because alarms are going off next door. Is a BAAAD combo.

A while back had the neighbor across the street alarm go off. So I went to get the shotgun, head to the front door, and I see the next door neighbor flying out his door, with his 9 mm ready to go. He's a vietnam era vet, with lots of training. So I kinda hung out by the front door.

After 15 minutes the cops finally show up, the homeowner had enough time to leave his office and go home. And they were outside talking. Still carrying openly. 

The officer shows up, and they didn't even blink when the guy notified him he was armed. They all chatted for a few minutes. Gun still in the guys hand the whole time and left. 

Was very impressed.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

teeroy said:


> Quick question.
> 
> How do you tell who is an "average citizen" in a matter of seconds....?
> 
> Inquiring minds wants to know.


*Partial repost. Time expired while editing the last post.*

Why, do you think everyone is a bad guy? I'm pretty sure that you can determine who is a gang member or thug versus an average citizen without much effort.

Either way, I don't think shooting first and asking questions later is a good policy, do you?

Curious, why is it that when issues such as these are discussed, do you almost always seem to side with the officers or want to give them the benefit of the doubt? Why are their actions not just as suspect as those of the public? I have nothing against you, but you have to know that there are both good and bad cops, just like every other element of society.

Why do you state in a matter of seconds? Situations where seconds are a matter of life or death are a very very small minority of the interactions that officers have with the public. Don't you owe it to society to give possibly innocent people every opportunity and benefit of the doubt before shooting them? Is your life more valuable than an innocent member of society?

Why is it that officers cannot arrest a person who has a restraining order against them just because the person who had it issued thinks they are going to be killed by the other party? They feel threatened. But until the offending party acts in opposition to the order nothing can be done. This plays out all over the country, and often one party kills the other even with the restraining order in place. Yes, I know the two situations are not entirely comparable, but there are lots of parallels. I don't think an officer should take action (especially deadly force) without a good understanding of the situation in its entirety.

How would you feel if grandpaw accidentally shot the cop because he felt threatened? Would it be ok for him to be trigger happy and shoot without all the facts? I think it's fair to say that he felt a crime was being committed at his neighbors and he was trying to stop it. If this were the case, do you think grandpaw should face charges?

BTW, my hats off to you, I'd never want your job. Be safe!


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## DSL_PWR (Jul 22, 2009)

Sad situation all around. 

Another reason why I mind my own business..


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## G-O-T-B (Jan 15, 2010)

talk about a crappy day run out to check on your friends house getting broke into and get shot down by the good guys. sad deal for all involved


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## Aces Full (Aug 10, 2005)

teeroy said:


> Quick question.
> 
> How do you tell who is an "average citizen" in a matter of seconds....?
> 
> Inquiring minds wants to know.


Everyone is an "average citizen" in a few seconds or even after a few hours. It's a shame that we've allowed society to automatically assume you are most likely a bad guy if you are armed and not an police officer.

My followers should be along here shortly to argue that he deserved getting shot just for being out in public with a weapon.


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

On The Hook said:


> Why, do you think everyone is a bad guy? I'm pretty sure that you can determine who is a gang member or thug versus an average citizen without much effort.
> 
> *Assumptions get you killed. Go google "cop killers" and see how "average" some of them look. *
> 
> ...


:spineyes::idea::idea:


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## boom! (Jul 10, 2004)

teeroy said:


> Quick question.
> 
> How do you tell who is an "average citizen" in a matter of seconds....?
> 
> Inquiring minds wants to know.


Evidently in Dallas they shoot you and then run a background check. Do they seriously not cover good guys and bad guys in the academy?


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

Aces Full said:


> Everyone is an "average citizen" in a few seconds or even after a few hours. It's a shame that we've allowed society to automatically assume you are most likely a bad guy if you are armed and not an police officer.


The officers were called to an alarm. And wasn't it late at night? If I'm called to an alarm, which I respond to a lot of them, and a lot of them late at night, I don't assume "that guy" over there is some neighborhood watchman looking for burglars with me. He's not going to be treated the same as a guy playing with his kids out in the yard. An officer who isn't incompetent is gonna see just what in the hail he's doing walking around the house where an alarm is going off.

Remember when the Massachusetts officers arrested that black professor when they were called to an alarm and he didn't want to ID himself? He got arrested, then Obama said the police acted "stupidly"? This thread reminds me of that...


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

Done some reading on the matter. Seem the old man was standing in his garage. They named the officers and I won't repeat that here however, they are very experienced (tongue in cheek) and have been on the job since October of 2012.


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## Back Bay boy (Apr 7, 2010)

It is because the cops of lately seem to cuff everyone till they figure out whats going on so it is all folks are bad till proven good mentality, Not all but most seem to have this I am above the average citizen mentality. Unconstitutional rd. blocks and license check and insurance and DUI checkpoints.


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

Back Bay boy said:


> It is because the cops of lately seem to cuff everyone till they figure out whats going on so it is all folks are bad till proven good mentality, Not all but most seem to have this I am above the average citizen mentality. Unconstitutional rd. blocks and license check and insurance and DUI checkpoints.


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## txjustin (Jun 3, 2009)

Terrible situation, but we should wait till the facts come out.


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## gitchesum (Nov 18, 2006)

You know what all these guys have in common? Yep, all convicted cop killers. Most of whom have been executed for their crime. The idea that you can spot a cop killer is ridiculous at best.

No one can say for sure what happened. It's possible that the officers on the scene did over-react and shot Mr Waller in a tragic error that his family, and the officers themselves will have to live with for the rest of their lives.

It's also possible that in the darkness, with very bright flashlights shined in his face, Mr Waller couldn't identify the two officers as real police officers and refused to lower his weapon and they did in fact feel threatened enough to fire upon him.

To many unknowns to be able to know what really happened at this point. I really don't feel this is something that will get swept under the rug though. Too much publicity and people are going to want to see resolution.


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## Loco Motion (Jun 5, 2004)

There is a whole lot of dumbarse on this thread.


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## txranger (Jun 23, 2005)

The man's garage is not very visible from the street. It's behind his house and may face sideways and not toward the street. It seems unlikely the cops could see him in his garage from the street in the middle of the night (alarm call came in just before 1:00 am). If the man was walking around in his driveway with his handgun, he could have easily been spotted by the LEO's as a potential suspect in the burglar alarm call. LEO's were wearing distinct patrol uniforms and driving marked patrol units.


Hookless said:


> Done some reading on the matter. Seem the old man was standing in his garage. They named the officers and I won't repeat that here however, they are very experienced (tongue in cheek) and have been on the job since October of 2012.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

gitchesum said:


> You know what all these guys have in common? Yep, all convicted cop killers. Most of whom have been executed for their crime. The idea that you can spot a cop killer is ridiculous at best.
> 
> No one can say for sure what happened. It's possible that the officers on the scene did over-react and shot Mr Waller in a tragic error that his family, and the officers themselves will have to live with for the rest of their lives.
> 
> ...


I don't think that anyone said you could pick out a cop killer. I did say that one can usually and rather easily pick out the gang member thug types and that the officer should also have a heightened awareness when dealing with John Q. Public. To me this means trust but verify, not treat everyone like they are a bad guy. Law enforcement is a dangerous profession, but that is not a reason to treat everyone poorly.

I like cops, and know more than a few, but I dislike the us against them mentality that many officers hold.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Here is how fast it can go down with no gun showing and it is even faster with a gun out


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## Guy from Sealy (Mar 31, 2005)

Higher standards

Great Power - Greater responsibility.

Think about it - they BOTH were armed. The old man showed restraint. The Policy enforcement officer didn't.

I dont think I need anymore excu.. oh I mean facts than that.

I can be _in fear for my life_ too you know.

People are getting tired of reading these types of reports.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Here is how fast it can go down with no gun showing and it is even faster with a gun out


No doubt that bad guys will do bad things! The guy looked like a thug to me. The officer stopped that guy, so he knew that the driver was his source of contact and the responsible party for any violation that might have existed. I also notice that the officer did not shoot first and then ask questions later. 
It did not look like the officer used good judgement or procedure to me.

Law enforcement is a dangerous job, and not one I'd care much for. All officers have to know this going in. Sorry this guy got shot and hope he made a full recovery. This bad guy basically ambushed the officer, a worst case scenario. No doubt officers need to use caution and be aware, but that can usually be done politely and without treating everyone like criminals.

I understand that things can happen fast, but we cannot accept officers shooting innocent people who are not threatening them. Just having a gun does not make someone a bad guy. The car stop is somewhat different, but can usually still be handled professionally. The guy in the car was a threat and intended to cause harm, grandpaw likely did neither.


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## Drundel (Feb 6, 2006)

http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/05/30/4892910/family-says-man-killed-by-fort.html


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## RACER (Mar 15, 2006)

txranger said:


> Actually I'm one of the few on here that hasn't assigned blame to either party. WOW huh.


x2


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## osage243 (May 23, 2011)

This is certainly a tragedy for everyone involved, but until the truth comes out there will be plenty of armchair quarterbacking. I'm not siding with LEO because I don't know the facts of the incident and neither does anyone else bashing the officers. No one can blame the officers 100% for what happened. It could be 50/50 in this case. The officers might have walked around a corner at the same time as the victim and confronted each other at the same time. Who knows how it went down ? We may never know the whole truth about what happened. What I do know is that the officers department will conduct an internal investigation and the rangers will conduct a criminal investigation to find out what happened. Let it play out and let's all go fishing. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## poppadawg (Aug 10, 2007)

^x2. Remember when Trevon was an innocent little child that get shot by the racist cop wannabe?


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## RockinU (Aug 13, 2006)

Very troubling that the officers weren't even at the right house...I know if it was the middle of the night and I saw two guys walking around outside my house with flashlights I would arm myself...a tragic mistake that will haunt all involved


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## osage243 (May 23, 2011)

RockinU said:


> Very troubling that the officers weren't even at the right house...I know if it was the middle of the night and I saw two guys walking around outside my house with flashlights I would arm myself...a tragic mistake that will haunt all involved


The officers might have been at the wrong house because maybe they heard the old man when he walked outside and went to investigate. The alarm call was supposedly across the street. Who knows ? Way too many scenarios as to how this tragic incident could have happened.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Guy from Sealy (Mar 31, 2005)

yeah... and officers may be training with these targets


















who knows?


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## RockinU (Aug 13, 2006)

osage243 said:


> The officers might have been at the wrong house because maybe they heard the old man when he walked outside and went to investigate. The alarm call was supposedly across the street. Who knows ? Way too many scenarios as to how this tragic incident could have happened.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


That may be, but the fact that when he called for the ambulance and was asked for his location, he gave the address for where the alarm was going off and not where he actually was, which combined with the occupants of the alarm house saying that no police ever came to their door might lead a reasonable person to believe they approached the wrong house from the beginning. Obviously I wasn't there, and I don't know.

Were the officer's lives in danger? Possibly...if two men with flashlights were advancing on my house in the middle of the night and I didn't know why, they would be in the beginnings of danger, as I would see that as a reason to arm myself, just as this gentleman apparently did. I think that is why this troubles me so much...by simple mistake or misunderstanding it could happen to me.

What I wonder is if this had gone down differently, and out of fear or panic the man had shot the officers (not knowing they were officers) how many in here would be calling him a cop killer, and looking for a capital conviction.

No matter what any investigation says, or what argument anyone on here presents, I can't see this as anything other than a mistake...a tragic mistake with long term ramifications for all involved. Any negligence, or criminal aspects will have to be judged through a competent investigation.


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## Won Hunglo (Apr 24, 2007)




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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

On The Hook said:


> No doubt that bad guys will do bad things! The guy looked like a thug to me. The officer stopped that guy, so he knew that the driver was his source of contact and the responsible party for any violation that might have existed. I also notice that the officer did not shoot first and then ask questions later.
> It did not look like the officer used good judgement or procedure to me.
> 
> Law enforcement is a dangerous job, and not one I'd care much for. All officers have to know this going in. Sorry this guy got shot and hope he made a full recovery. This bad guy basically ambushed the officer, a worst case scenario. No doubt officers need to use caution and be aware, but that can usually be done politely and without treating everyone like criminals.
> ...


If the guy is carrying and turning toward you and doesn't obey a drop it command then the guy is in a threatening position and you can't wait until the trigger is pulled to decide if he a good guy or bad guy.

And you know how the guy in the car stopped on a traffic stop is a bad guy, ESP or Spidey senses?

When I taught CHL I taught my students if you have shot to stop the threat, then re-holster and don't appear to be in threatening manner so you aren't mistaken for a bad guy by LEO or fellow CHL'er hearing the shots.


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## Barefoot Boy (Sep 27, 2005)

*8 months after fatal shooting, a Grand Jury is Finally held*

Fired officer is not indicted.

http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/29/5524097/grand-jury-declines-to-indict.html


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## gunsmoke11 (Apr 30, 2012)

coachlaw said:


> Did you really just say this? I don't understand your thought process.


Way left.....like Hitlery Clinton left......


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## J_Philla (Oct 22, 2009)

gunsmoke11 said:


> Way left.....like Hitlery Clinton left......


i found it interesting that the chief asks for tech to have a on officer camera to record incidents. wonder if they have heard about a go pro?


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## V-Bottom (Jun 16, 2007)

say again!


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## Bearwolf34 (Sep 8, 2005)

Too bad our military doesnt have the same set of rules of engagement as what our cops seem to have...a threat blam its over instead of having to wait for the other guy to shoot first then if you survive you can fight back...though 5 shots I'm sure they'd really be hung out to dry. 

What a world we live in and misplaced priorities.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

Texas T said:


> If the guy is carrying and turning toward you and doesn't obey a drop it command then the guy is in a threatening position and *you can't wait until the trigger is pulled to decide if he a good guy or bad guy*.
> 
> And you know how the guy in the car stopped on a traffic stop is a bad guy, ESP or Spidey senses?
> 
> When I taught CHL I taught my students if you have shot to stop the threat, then re-holster and don't appear to be in threatening manner so you aren't mistaken for a bad guy by LEO or fellow CHL'er hearing the shots.


So, because you have a badge, you don't have to make reasonable, rational decisions and can end someone's life because your not sure if they are a threat or not? I guess your life is more valuable than an innocent person who was not committing a crime or threatening an officer? Tell me again why its ok for you to shoot first and ask questions later? Is that because of your excellent training, or just because you have a badge? When did shoot first become the accepted practice for law enforcement? I thought our system required a judge and jury to decide punishment and guilt. Killing someone should be the last resort, especially for a trained officer. It seems more is expected of chl holding citizens than officers. h:


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## peckerwood (Jun 9, 2012)

If we've got to blame somebody,why can't we blame all the scumbag,dirty rotton pieces of shmitt that force us into dangerous situations.This aint a Leave it to Beaver world anymore.Some blame the police,others the old man.What about the alarm!What made it go off?


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## donf (Aug 8, 2005)

A few years ago, a neighbor called me, the wife of a friend who was home alone. Dark night. She had heard popping noises, glass breaking at her house. I told her id be there in two minutes. I armed myself, and called the cops. I told dispatch who I was, that I was going to that specific address, and I wanted the responding officers to know that the good guy was wearing a white tee shirt and tan shorts , and tell them DONT shoot at the good guy. 
Turned out it was kids with a BB gun acting the fool.


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## Barefoot Boy (Sep 27, 2005)

*Story is evolving: Gramps did a gun-grab*

It sounds like both sides could be blamed.

People understand that mistakes can happen.

The thing that bothered the people in Fort Worth, were:
Why the normally open Police Chief wouldn't speak of the shooting.
Why did it take 8 months to convene a Grand Jury for the fired officer?

Now the story is being told that the grandpa surrendered the gun, but Then he grabbed it back. Why wasn't this told earlier. It seems it should have been told.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

On The Hook said:


> So, because you have a badge, you don't have to make reasonable, rational decisions and can end someone's life because your not sure if they are a threat or not? I guess your life is more valuable than an innocent person who was not committing a crime or threatening an officer? Tell me again why its ok for you to shoot first and ask questions later? Is that because of your excellent training, or just because you have a badge? When did shoot first become the accepted practice for law enforcement? I thought our system required a judge and jury to decide punishment and guilt. Killing someone should be the last resort, especially for a trained officer. It seems more is expected of chl holding citizens than officers. h:


 Simple question Hook. Please answer. *If the guy is carrying and turning toward you and doesn't obey a drop it command* then what are you going to do, wait and see if he shoots you, which may deprive your family of you. Or will you shoot and continue to be around for your family. Answer with first choice or second choice.


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

Just want to leave this here:



> Police Chief Jeff Halstead said the grand jury made the right decision.
> *â€œI think it was proven through the autopsy and evidence that a gun was pointed directly at officer Hoeppner and he was forced to make his decision â€¦â€* Halstead said, explaining that the trajectory of Wallerâ€™s wounds shows that the homeowner had his arm outstretched, as if pointing a gun.
> 
> Relatives have said Waller, suspecting a prowler was outside, grabbed his gun and went to investigate. Documents indicate that Waller was shot after he refused officersâ€™ demands to drop the gun and pointed it at Hoeppner.
> ...


Cop or not, you don't wait around to see why the gun is being pointed at you.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Simple question Hook. Please answer. *If the guy is carrying and turning toward you and doesn't obey a drop it command* then what are you going to do, wait and see if he shoots you, which may deprive your family of you. Or will you shoot and continue to be around for your family. Answer with first choice or second choice.


Let me make sure I have this right. You make some statements, I question them, you ignore the questions, but you want an answer to your follow up question that is now more pointed? Did I get that right? I asked som simple questions, please answer them.

If we are going to have a discussion, its your turn to respond to my questions. Why do you get to ignore the questions on the table, but others don't? You seem to have an authority complex like many officers seem to.

If im looking for a burgler on my property and someone orders me to drop my weapon, but, I'm not clear on who is giving the "command" (note, I'm not in the military and am not required to follow commands on my property being king of my castle), you can bet I'm not opening myself up to be an unarmed victim by surrendering my weapon. Again, a badge does not give you the right to shoot first and ask questions later so you can go home to your family and the one you shot does not. There are no guarantees in life, and police work is risky. If your not willing to take the risks associated with the job, you should find a new profession instead of shooting innocent citizens. You also have an obligation to go to the correct address when called.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

On The Hook said:


> So, because you have a badge, you don't have to make reasonable, rational decisions and can end someone's life because your not sure if they are a threat or not?*I don't have a badge, never said I did.* I guess your life is more valuable than an innocent person who was not committing a crime or threatening an officer?*Yes my life is more important then his if he turns toward me in a threatening manner like this guy did.*Tell me again why its ok for you to shoot first and ask questions later?*Why tell you twice if you didn't get it the first time.* Is that because of your excellent training, or just because you have a badge?*I don't have a badge* When did shoot first become the accepted practice for law enforcement?*When the officer fears for his safety or the safety of others, which was way before you were even born.* I thought our system required a judge and jury to decide punishment and guilt. Killing someone should be the last resort, especially for a trained officer. It seems more is expected of chl holding citizens than officers. h:


Now the ball is in your court to answer.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

On The Hook said:


> If im looking for a burgler on my property and someone orders me to drop my weapon, but, I'm not clear on who is giving the "command" (note, I'm not in the military and am not required to follow commands on my property being king of my castle), you can bet I'm not opening myself up to be an unarmed victim by surrendering my weapon. Again, a badge does not give you the right to shoot first and ask questions later so you can go home to your family and the one you shot does not. There are no guarantees in life, and police work is risky. If your not willing to take the risks associated with the job, you should find a new profession instead of shooting innocent citizens. You also have an obligation to go to the correct address when called.


Then if you turn around in a threatening manner holding a gun then we will be reading about your family mourning your demise too. Being a stupid king of your castle can be risky business too.


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## donaken (Nov 25, 2010)

*Sad...*

A tragedy on all levels...prayers to all effected....for a rookie or a veteran, I wonder how this will affect their future judgement?


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Now the ball is in your court to answer.


I appreciate the answers, but my use of the word you was intended to infer "as an officer, you....", and not you directly. I probably wasn't clear on that part, my apology. I didn't think you had a badge, and wasn't referring to you in those questions. Being a chl instructor doesn't mean you are a cop, most are not. Again, being a cop is risky, and there is no guarantee you are going home at the end of your shift. Thats the way it is, but that does not give you the right to shoot first and ask questions later. Sure, we'd all like to think that cops always do the right thing, but they are human and don't always do so. When that happens, they need to be delt with appropriately and in a maner that takes into account how they dealt with the great public trust and responsibility they assumed wen they took the job. I have friends and family who are LEOs so I have at least a little in site to both sides. Being a cop is a big responsibility, and Cops who kill innocent people shouldn't be cops any longer. I think it goes without saying that we'd all prefer that a cop goes home to his family rather than a bad guy, but that's not this issue we are discussing here. We're talking about innocent people, not bad guys. A cop has a duty to be able to discern between the two and act appropriately. A Leo should be a respectable person, and I cannot respect someone who shoots first and asks questions later be a use they have a badge.

How would you like to go hunting with one of your friends who previously shot their hunting buddy? Would you respect their judgment? Would you let your child hunt with them knowing they would in the same area hunting, but not standing next to each other?  Sure, the first time was an accident, but that doesn't change things for the dead guy does it? How can you really trust the shooters judgement in the future? I couldn't. Sure, I could still be his friend, but wouldn't put my self in a situation where his judgement could end my life. I don't see the cop issue as much different. And, remember that the cop shooter was highly trained and certified, the hunter was not. See my point?

The question was already answered at the bottom of my previous post. I still don't agree with your position, and if you think it has alway been as you stated, then I think history would prove you wrong. I'm not saying that no cop ever got trigger happy and killed someone in the past, just that it is more prevalent now. I'm not talking about bad cops intentionally killing people, I'm talking overreaction.

Hopefully this answers your questions and helps clear thing up.


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

On The Hook said:


> Being a cop is a big responsibility, and Cops who kill innocent people shouldn't be cops any longer. I think it goes without saying that we'd all prefer that a cop goes home to his family rather than a bad guy, but that's not this issue we are discussing here. *We're talking about innocent people, not bad guys. A cop has a duty to be able to discern between the two and act appropriately. A Leo should be a respectable person, and I cannot respect someone who shoots first and asks questions later be a use they have a badge. *
> 
> .


I've got news for you. A guy pointing a gun at you goes from grandpa of the year/Masonic member/priest to bad guy REAL quick when he's pointing a gun at you. ACTION is quicker than reaction. NO ONE (cop or not) has to wait around and sort out who's pointing the gun at them before they make a life and death decision. You hesitate, you're dead. Grandpa should have been more cautious about who he was pointing his gun at. This was a senseless tragedy that could have been avoided. Both of them were on edge. The cops were expecting to run into a bad guy, as was man who was shot.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Then if you turn around in a threatening manner holding a gun then we will be reading about your family mourning your demise too. Being a stupid king of your castle can be risky business too.


 Define threatening? If I'm looking for a burglar I'm not going to be walking around my property with my weapon holstered. I've responded armed to alarms at my business and entered with officers. I've called officers to my location while visibly armed too. After seeing too many people & pets shot by officers who are at the wrong address or just trigger happy, I believe it can and will continue until something changes. Something needs to change. There are few guarantees in life, and any one of us could die or be killer tomorrow, but you can bet I'll be on the defense until I die. I'm a good guy and intend to stay that way. Remember cops shoot unarmed people too, so this threatening weapon is not all you have to worry about. Be safe, be smart, and lets just shoot the bad guys from now on.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

teeroy said:


> I've got news for you. A guy pointing a gun at you goes from grandpa of the year/Masonic member/priest to bad guy REAL quick when he's pointing a gun at you. ACTION is quicker than reaction. NO ONE (cop or not) has to wait around and sort out who's pointing the gun at them before they make a life and death decision. You hesitate, you're dead. Grandpa should have been more cautious about who he was pointing his gun at. This was a senseless tragedy that could have been avoided. Both of them were on edge. The cops were expecting to run into a bad guy, as was man who was shot.


Then why were they at the wrong address? Was that not the case here?


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

On The Hook said:


> The question was already answered at the bottom of my previous post. I still don't agree with your position, and if you think it has alway been as you stated, then I think history would prove you wrong. I'm not saying that no cop ever got trigger happy and killed someone in the past, just that it is more prevalent now. I'm not talking about bad cops intentionally killing people, I'm talking overreaction.
> 
> Hopefully this answers your questions and helps clear thing up.





> Simple question Hook. Please answer. *If the guy is carrying and turning toward you and doesn't obey a drop it command* then what are you going to do, wait and see if he shoots you, which may deprive your family of you. Or will you shoot and continue to be around for your family. Answer with first choice or second choice.


Answering with one of the two choices will clearly answer it.


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

On The Hook said:


> Then why were they at the wrong address? Was that not the case here?


That doesn't matter. I've been to the wrong house before, and I pay attention to what I'm doing and where I'm going. Dispatch has actually sent me to a wrong house before, but the street name sounded similar to the one they heard over the phone. I've also not had my map zoomed in close enough to see that I was on the wrong street, but the right numbers. I've also been trying to locate loud noises before and wound up at the wrong house.

It doesn't matter where the officers were at, as long as they could legally be there, they can defend theirself when a gun is pointed at them, hence the outcome in this case.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

teeroy said:


> That doesn't matter. I've been to the wrong house before, and I pay attention to what I'm doing and where I'm going. Dispatch has actually sent me to a wrong house before, but the street name sounded similar to the one they heard over the phone. I've also not had my map zoomed in close enough to see that I was on the wrong street, but the right numbers. I've also been trying to locate loud noises before and wound up at the wrong house.
> 
> It doesn't matter where the officers were at, as long as they could legally be there, they can defend theirself when a gun is pointed at them, hence the outcome in this case.


I cannot agree. Its not always about the cop, citizens have the right to life too. The officer was wrong, and an innocent guy is dead. How can they legally be at the wrong address?


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Hook I guess you won't answer the question in post #107


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

On The Hook said:


> I cannot agree. Its not always about the cop, citizens have the right to life too. The officer was wrong, and an innocent guy is dead. How can they legally be at the wrong address?


Uhhhh

What's illegal about being in someone's yard/porch? As long as the public has access to it, you can be there. Yes, the public has access to your front yard (unless it's fenced and a no trespassing sign is posted).

I think the outcome of the case makes it pretty clear that it doesn't matter where the officer's were. The officer(s) in this case (and everyhwere else in the US) have a right to defend theirself when a GUN is POINTED at them, obviously.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Hook I guess you won't answer the question in post #107


I did answer it. Look back at 99. I cannot help it if you don't like my answer.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

On The Hook said:


> I did answer it. Look back. I cannot help it if you don't like my answer.


I did look back but did not see where you clearly answered and asking for a clear answer is not too much to expect, so are you willing to answer with one of the two choices so I may clearly understand your answer.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

> Let me make sure I have this right. You make some statements, I question them, you ignore the questions, but you want an answer to your follow up question that is now more pointed? Did I get that right? I asked som simple questions, please answer them.
> 
> If we are going to have a discussion, its your turn to respond to my questions. Why do you get to ignore the questions on the table, but others don't? You seem to have an authority complex like many officers seem to.
> 
> If im looking for a burgler on my property and someone orders me to drop my weapon, but, I'm not clear on who is giving the "command" (note, I'm not in the military and am not required to follow commands on my property being king of my castle), you can bet I'm not opening myself up to be an unarmed victim by surrendering my weapon. Again, a badge does not give you the right to shoot first and ask questions later so you can go home to your family and the one you shot does not. There are no guarantees in life, and police work is risky. If your not willing to take the risks associated with the job, you should find a new profession instead of shooting innocent citizens. You also have an obligation to go to the correct address when called.


No where here does it say what you would do if someone turns toward you with a gun. If you have it hidden between the lines then point it out.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

Texas T said:


> I did look back but did not see where you clearly answered and asking for a clear answer is not too much to expect, so are you willing to answer with one of the two choices so I may clearly understand your answer.


I don't agree your choices are the only answers. I could ask you all kinds of questions and could "prove" all sorts of things if you let me limit your answers. But, I won't do that as it's not reasonable. I think my answer was reasonable.


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Hook I guess you won't answer the question in post #107


He can tell who is a good guy or bad guy just by looking at them


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Have it your way and crawfish away from answering. Have a good day and build your post count with others. I'm not wasting time with you.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

Texas T said:


> No where here does it say what you would do if someone turns toward you with a gun. If you have it hidden between the lines then point it out.


I was quite clear when I said I wouldn't put my weapon down because someone not known to me commanded me to do so. If I'm not clear on who they are, I'm not going to be an unarmed victim on my property. What's so hard to understand a bout that?

Apparently, your too impatient to wait for the system to allow me to respond. There is a time limit before you can post again and I was responding to t Roy , on my phone which takes a while. I guess your in the shoot first camp too. I hope your family doesn't have the misfortune of having to deal with the aftermath of you running into someone who like you is impatient but faster on the trigger. Good people shouldn't die because of someone else is more self important and impatient.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Have it your way and crawfish away from answering. Have a good day and build your post count with others. I'm not wasting time with you.


Seems the cops cant tell the difference, so they shoot first and ask questions later. That's a good policy to them. I see lots of good and bad guys, but I don't kill them.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

On The Hook said:


> I was quite clear when I said I wouldn't put my weapon down because someone not known to me commanded me to do so. If I'm not clear on who they are, I'm not going to be an unarmed victim on my property. What's so hard to understand a bout that?


You still missed the question.

Again


> *If the guy is carrying and turning toward you and doesn't obey a drop it command* then what are you going to do, wait and see if he shoots you, which may deprive your family of you. Or will you shoot and continue to be around for your family. Answer with first choice or second choice.


I am putting you in the position of somebody turning towards you.


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

On The Hook said:


> I was quite clear when I said I wouldn't put my weapon down because someone not known to me commanded me to do so. If I'm not clear on who they are, I'm not going to be an unarmed victim on my property. What's so hard to understand a bout that?


I totally understand that point of view, and it really puts it into perspective as to just how crappy of a situation it is/was/could have been. I am guessing the victim here didn't know they were officers. Walking around with your gun raised isn't always the best policy though.


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

Texas T said:


> You still missed the question.
> 
> AgainI am putting you in the position of somebody turning towards you.


If I cannot ascertain your a leo, I'm not standing down. You could be a bad guy trying to disarm me. Your clarity has too many assumptions. Remember I'm on my property and your not supposed to be there. (Wrong address)

Fyi, I could care less about post count. It's about standing up for what is right. You have way more posts than I do, so does that mean your posts have no value? I don't think so, but that seems to be your logic. It's a discussion, and it's possible that we can all learn some things from it.


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

On The Hook said:


> If I cannot ascertain your a leo, I'm not standing down. You could be a bad guy trying to disarm me. Your clarity has too many assumptions. Remember I'm on my property and your not supposed to be there. (Wrong address)


Do you have a blanket policy that ANYONE on your property gets a gun pulled on them?


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

teeroy said:


> Do you have a blanket policy that ANYONE on your property gets a gun pulled on them?


Absolutely not. And, I don't think cops should either. Shooting someone should be the last and final option. That said, I'd be OK with locking all the thugs, criminals, drug dealers and the like in a big room, giving them a gun on the way in and see how it works out for them. We can deal with the last one standing.


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

On The Hook said:


> *If I cannot ascertain your a leo, I'm not standing down. You could be a bad guy trying to disarm me. Your clarity has too many assumptions. Remember I'm on my property and your not supposed to be there. (Wrong address)*
> 
> Fyi, I could care less about post count. It's about standing up for what is right. You have way more posts than I do, so does that mean your posts have no value? I don't think so, but that seems to be your logic. It's a discussion, and it's possible that we can all learn some things from it.


That's a good point. Here are two scenarios:

1) You are correct. It was a bad guy trying to bluff you with an LEO command to put down your weapon. You refuse to heed his fake command, but then you also do not open fire. So, what is going to happen next? he beats a retreat realizing he cannot fool you. That's great, that's what you hope for. But what if he does not and instead opens fire. You go down.

2) You are NOT correct. It is LEO who comes to the wrong address. You justifiably refuse to heed his command but you hold your fire. He justifiably sees you as a threat and opens fire. You go down. It makes no difference whether he only gets fired for incompetence (got wrong address) or gets prison sentence on criminal charge (I doubt this is the case)...you're still dead...sad3sm. The only winner is your attorney.

I don't know what would be the best thing for homeowner to do...hwell:


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## On The Hook (Feb 24, 2009)

mas360 said:


> That's a good point. Here are two scenarios:
> 
> 1) You are correct. It was a bad guy trying to bluff you with an LEO command to put down your weapon. You refuse to heed his fake command, but then you also do not open fire. So, what is going to happen next? he beats a retreat realizing he cannot fool you. That's great, that's what you hope for. But what if he does not and instead opens fire. You go down.
> 
> ...


Your absolutely right the home owner always looses in your scenario s. That's the problem, this shouldn't be the case. A change to the system is needed.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> A change to the system is needed.


Ah, no it isn't. Common sense needs to prevail...if a LEO tells you to drop your gun and you don't do it more than likely you're going to get shot.

"Waller, suspecting a prowler was outside, went to investigate. Officers encountered the armed man near the corner of the home, the affidavit states.

*They identified themselves as officers and ordered Waller to drop his gun, but he pointed it at Hoeppner, prompting Hoeppner to shoot, according to the affidavit.*

In radio transmissions later released by the city through an open-records request, Hanlon can be heard telling dispatchers â€œshots firedâ€ and asking for an ambulance.
â€œI donâ€™t know who the guy is,â€ Hanlon told dispatchers. â€œThe guy came out with a gun. He wouldnâ€™t put the gun down. He pointed it at Hoeppner. Hoeppner fired.â€

TH


Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/0...ry-declines-to-indict.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy​


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## Jfreeman (Nov 3, 2004)

How many rounds did this 72 ur old man discharge? Zero as far as I know. He was shot 5 times. 

Seems like this could have ended up way better . Why didn't the cops take cover and tell the man to drop the gun? Maybe the old guy didn't realize they were cops?

They should be properly trained to handle these situations where innocent old men don't end up getting shot 5 times. Were they so scared to be fired on they just went ahead and fired first, 5 times.

Becoming a cop is putting yourself in the line of fire. I'm constantly hearing more stories of innocent people being shot or killed by law enforcement.

Just seems really weak to me.


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

Jfreeman said:


> How many rounds did this 72 ur old man discharge? Zero as far as I know. He was shot 5 times.
> 
> Seems like this could have ended up way better . Why didn't the cops take cover and tell the man to drop the gun? Maybe the old guy didn't realize they were cops?
> 
> ...


Just because he's an old man (which may or may not have been obvious due to the lighting) he isn't going to pull the trigger? WOW

You meet deadly force WITH DEADLY FORCE. PERIOD. That's not being bad *** macho, that's the preferred response if you care about your own life. Any other response to a gun being pointed at you shows incompetence and/or a lack of concern with your own life.

Maybe he didn't realize they were cops. Still, you don't walk around pointing guns at people. What did the officers do to lead the old man to believe they were burglars? Because they were outside at night? Cops are people too. Anyone can use deadly force when a gun is pointed at them.


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## Jfreeman (Nov 3, 2004)

teeroy said:


> Just because he's an old man (which may or may not have been obvious due to the lighting) he isn't going to pull the trigger? WOW
> 
> You meet deadly force WITH DEADLY FORCE. PERIOD. That's not being bad *** macho, that's the preferred response if you care about your own life. Any other response to a gun being pointed at you shows incompetence and/or a lack of concern with your own life.
> 
> Maybe he didn't realize they were cops. Still, you don't walk around pointing guns at people. What did the officers do to lead the old man to believe they were burglars? Because they were outside at night? Cops are people too. Anyone can use deadly force when a gun is pointed at them.


They should be trained to diffuse the situation without shooting someone 5 times as a first resort. If you can't understand that's what I was trying to explain, we'll then....


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## teeroy (Oct 1, 2009)

Jfreeman said:


> They should be trained to diffuse the situation without shooting someone 5 times as a first resort. If you can't understand that's what I was trying to explain, we'll then....


I'll leave you with this. If you go pointing your gun at people you might get shot, justifiably so. And, assumptions will get you killed. If you don't understand that, well...


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## boom! (Jul 10, 2004)

teeroy said:


> If you go pointing your gun at people you might get shot, justifiably so.


That should be the first lesson at the academy as well. Each and every time that an officer's weapon is drawn and pointed at an innocent citizen there should be a review. After all, isn't that assault with a deadly weapon?


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## Texican89 (Oct 27, 2009)

teeroy said:


> I'll leave you with this. If you go pointing your gun at people you might get shot, justifiably so. And, assumptions will get you killed. If you don't understand that, well...


Does the same go for LEO's? Do they not show up with lights flashing on their vehicles anymore? I would think if they did he would of lowered his weapon and let them handle the situation.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Texican89 said:


> Does the same go for LEO's? Do they not show up with lights flashing on their vehicles anymore? I would think if they did he would of lowered his weapon and let them handle the situation.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk


Next time they do that you will be whining how the cops scared the bad guy off rather then catching him unaware.


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## Texican89 (Oct 27, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Next time they do that you will be whining how the cops scared the bad guy off rather then catching him unaware.


I'm sure the alarm scared them off.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk


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## Talmbout (Apr 13, 2013)

February 4, 2014
Share It | Print This ​
*SOURCE: POLICE STATE USA*











Jerry Waller and one of his grandchildren in a photo taken before his death. (Source: Waller Family)

FORT WORTH, TX â€" An elderly man was slain in his own garage because police â€œinadvertently began searchingâ€ the wrong address while investigating a burglary call. Spotting a man who appeared â€œstandoffishâ€ in his own garage, police opened fire, killing a 72-year-old grandfather. After months of investigation, the officer has been cleared and is back on the streets.
In the earliest hour of May 28th, 2013, Jerry Waller was awoken after midnight to the sound of his neighborâ€™s home burglar alarm. Doing the neighborly thing, Mr. Waller got out of bed to check on the family next door. He took a pistol with him as his wife stayed behind.
Fort Worth Police were dispatched and arrived at the scene at 12:58 a.m. Only the officers didnâ€™t go to the address of the alarm. They â€œinadvertently began searchingâ€ the property of Jerry and Kathy Waller at 404 Havenwood â€" across the road from the automated burglary alert.
 Jerry & Kathy Waller had been married 46 years. (Souce: Family Photo)

Officers B.B. Hanlon and R.A. â€œAlexâ€ Hoeppner walked onto the Wallersâ€™ property and approached the darkened house with their flashlights lit. As Officer Hoeppner neared the residence, he spotted Mr. Waller, who was cautiously surveying the scene from inside his garage.
A confrontation ensued between the homeowner and the intruders carrying guns and flashlights. Unfortunately only one side survived to tell their version of the events.
The undisputed fact is that Waller was shot 7 times in his own garage.
Officer Hoepnner claims that when he spotted Mr. Waller, he identified himself and commanded the homeowner to drop his gun. According to the police narrative, Waller was hesitant to comply with commands of the strangers. After momentarily setting his gun down, Waller allegedly â€œfreaked outâ€ and â€œlost itâ€ and picked the gun back up and assumed a â€œreadyâ€ stance, aiming his pistol at police officers. Hoepnner opened fire.
The senior citizen was struck multiple times and was pronounced dead at the scene. His slanted driveway was stained with a trail of his blood and his distraught wife had to be taken to the hospital for emotional distress.
The loss was devastating to the community. â€œThey are just a nice retired couple, that loved working in their yard, having family over, and grandkids,â€ said Becky Haskin, a neighbor who knew the Wallers.
â€œI think he panicked,â€ Haskin said to the Star-Telegram. â€œHe just unloaded his gun in rapid fire. Thatâ€™s what I heard. It woke me up. I thought it was in my back yard â€" just rapid fire, one right after the other, in succession. There wasnâ€™t any hesitation.â€
The burglar alarm across the street was a false alarm.
*â€œTRIGGER HAPPYâ€*

The department did not offer many details of the incident for some time, but insisted that â€œofficers felt threatened.â€
As the department investigated itself for wrongdoing, the Waller family expressed displeasure with what they considered deliberate â€œmisrepresentingâ€ of details of the killing by the department. They felt so uneasy with the media coverage that they felt compelled to issue a public statement demanding a full investigation. The statement read, in part:
We were deeply troubled by the police department misrepresenting details of the incident in their interviews with the media. We would ask that the police refrain from providing details to the media until a thorough investigation has been completed, preferably by an independent body.​  Kathy Waller decries the actions of â€œtrigger happyâ€ police. (Source: WFAA)

His widow, Kathy Waller, said she was â€œdisgustedâ€ by the police. â€œMarried 46 years, and then somebody gets a little trigger-happy and away they go,â€ she told WFAA. â€I miss him dearly.â€
â€œMy father never stepped outside of his garage,â€ said son Chris Waller. â€œHe was shot multiple times in the chest only a few steps away from the doorway to his kitchen.â€
According to the autopsy report, Waller suffered three bullets to the chest, a shot to the abdomen, a shot to the hand, and two grazing wounds to his wrist and forearm.
Details were slow to emerge, but a report finally admitted that the police went to the wrong address because of â€œpoor lighting.â€
The two officers were patrolling the streets again in under two months, without discipline.
Hoeppner gave the following statements:
â€œâ€¦the whole entire time Iâ€™m giving commands, â€œDrop the gun, drop the gun, drop the gun.â€ â€œAnd heâ€™s not dropping it and he had this attitude towards us thatâ€¦it was almost an attitude of, you canâ€™t tell me to drop my gun.â€ â€œYou know what I mean?â€ â€œLike who are you to telling me to, you know what I mean.â€ â€œHe kind of had an attitude kind of very hostile towards usâ€¦â€
â€œIâ€™m pretty sure I told you this; but I wanna reiterate that heâ€¦umm, hisâ€¦his attitude towards us was very malicious.â€* â€œItâ€¦it was not, pro-police at all.â€ â€œ He did not seem happy that, that we were there.â€*
â€¦if someone whoâ€¦whoâ€¦whoâ€¦isâ€¦.you get someone out there who would follow the gun laws; andâ€¦and that understands that a police officer is telling you this, that youâ€™re not gonna sit there and hold the gun still; causeâ€¦.I mean likeâ€¦itâ€™s almost as if he was challenging me.â€ â€œAnd the factâ€¦the reason I say that is I mean, hisâ€¦.the way he stood; I meanâ€¦I mean his comments as in, â€˜whyâ€™â€¦â€ â€œ You know like, whatâ€¦what person in their right manâ€¦mind would ask a peace officerâ€¦a, a law enforcement officerâ€¦â€™whyâ€™ â€¦when he tells you and give you verbal commands that weâ€™re being seriousâ€¦, drop the gun, you know. *Your law abiding citizen is not going to tellâ€¦ going to ask you, why.â€*
The way he talks to me is a very stand-off attitude.â€ â€œ You knowâ€¦you know when he say, getâ€¦get the light outta my eyes, it wasnâ€™t please sir; get the light outta my eyes.â€ â€œHey, can you please get the light outta my eyes.â€ â€œIt was, get the light outta my eyes!â€ â€œYou know, it was real standoff, likeâ€¦you knowâ€¦â€
Now that I think back on it and you know, had all this time to think on it. I think his intentions as soon as he walked out that door and saw me and he didnâ€™t want to put the gun down, I firmly believe that he was trying to find a point and time whereâ€¦whenâ€¦when he could shoot me at whenâ€¦whenâ€¦when it was the most beneficial time for him to shoot me.â€​ After hearing Officer Hoeppnerâ€™s partner swear under oath that Mr. Waller pointed his gun, a Tarrant County grand jury declined to indict the rookie cop. Both officers had been with the department for under one year.
The most recent report states that that Waller told Hoeppner to â€œget that light out of my eyes,â€ drawing questions about whether the victim could see who the intruders were through the blinding beam of light.
The police narrative claims that Waller did eventually put his gun on top of a car, but he then â€œscrambledâ€ to pick it back up. Next, allegedly, Waller â€œswung the handgun in the direction of Officer Hoeppner,â€ prompting the rapid fire response.
 Diagram of Jerry Wallerâ€™s garage. (Source: Fort Worth Police)

The report admits that the police did not activate their vehicle emergency lights, nor did they use their sirens. They also did not activate their lapel microphones. Why?
Jerry Wallerâ€™s death may never be fully understood, but the tragedy of the situation remains.
Was the situation preventable? Could officers have avoided this situation by utilizing their lights and sirens? Did the officers shoot irresponsibly after getting spooked by a strange man? Did Mr. Waller think he was confronting burglars?

​


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

The testimony of the policeman, Hoeppner, in this case shows the attitude is in Hoeppner, not the victim. 
Dead man does not testify and Hoeppner's lapel microphone was turned off. Whatever statement Hoeppner made, it is one-sided.


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## T.C. (May 7, 2009)

If this happened to me, I would be just as dead as Mr. Waller.


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