# Good Christian but not attending Church?



## KSims1868 (Jul 19, 2006)

I'm not fishing for any invitations to a Church out of this...I'm just asking a question.

I've been a Christian all my life. Really got involved in a Church (League City Methodist) and the Youth Group when I was in High School and for a couple years after I graduated, but ever since I came back from college (several years ago) I haven't attended regularly...almost not at all to be honest. When I returned from being gone a couple years the Church that I once knew had gone through some changes. It didn't "feel" the same. The Pastor had been moved to a new Church (far away), and a new one was moved in. I know...change can be good, but it just never felt like the "Church Home" that it felt like for so many years. It wasn't just the Pastor change...the whole "feel" was different. The atmosphere was just not in sync with what I wanted my Church to be.

My wife and I got married at this Church, we have met with the Pastor (very nice man by the way...we do like him and he's been very helpful in our journey as a married couple)...but still...it hasn't felt like "our place".

Some years have passed now since we were really attending the Church and I don't feel any less of a Christian. I feel that my connection to God is strong, and that I live a Christian life and feel very strong in my beliefs.

Can someone be a good Christian without attending a formal "Church" regularly? Can bible study, religious discussions with friends, etc... constitute a sort of personal "Church"? I've just been down on the whole institution of Organized Religion lately (for a few years)...but that has *NOT *lessened the importance of my beliefs. Am I doing wrong?


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## WAHOO-YAHOO (Apr 6, 2006)

KSims1868 said:


> but still...it hasn't felt like "our place".
> 
> Some years have passed now since we were really attending the Church and I don't feel any less of a Christian. I feel that my connection to God is strong, and that I live a Christian life and feel very strong in my beliefs.
> 
> Can someone be a good Christian without attending a formal "Church" regularly? Can bible study, religious discussions with friends, etc... constitute a sort of personal "Church"? I've just been down on the whole institution of Organized Religion lately (for a few years)...but that has *NOT *lessened the importance of my beliefs. Am I doing wrong?


I understand that feeling, but be careful. The Bible speaks of such things. They are devices to work against you. Being a Christian is a matter of the heart, a devotion to Christ and faith in Christ. I listen to sermons daily on the radio or the net. However,fellowship and attendance is important and should be part of uour lives. Sorry, at the moment, I can't post scripture to back this up. I'll get back to it.
In short, I don't think it's required, but it's not far from it. You must be carefull!

God bless,
Erik


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## deebo (May 22, 2004)

KSims1868 said:


> Can bible study, religious discussions with friends, etc... constitute a sort of personal "Church"?
> 
> 
> > I feel that fellowship is an imperative part of being a christian. Thats what "church" is. A gathering of christians. We are called to fellowship with one another for support, to strenghten each other and to hold your fellow brothers and sisters accountable. Worship isnt something that just happens on sundays either. We should worship daily in all sorts of ways. Gathering together for "church" is a very important aspect of being a christian, but the definition of church is what we are talking about here. I have attended church for my entire life, and i would not miss it for the world, and the reason for that is fellowship and renewal. I get encouragement from all the people there, and that is what church is all about. I dont think i can say that you can not be a "good christian" for not going to an organized church, but regular christian fellowship is an essential part of it. I would really suggest findig a good church home. I 100% guarentee that that and your family can be better christians with the accoutablitiy and fellowship that a good church home and friends can provide. I completely understand how you feel. Many churches now really turn me off, but i hope that if you could find the right one it would be better.


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## KSims1868 (Jul 19, 2006)

I guess I always felt that "fellowship" can be had MANY, MANY places outside the walls of what we (mortals) define as a legitimate (tax exempt) "church". 

I learned that our body is our temple (don't know exact verse or wording) many years ago, and this is what led me to believe I can worship on my own and seek fellowship outside the places deemed "church".


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## JHooks (Feb 8, 2006)

As to your question..."can you be a good christian without attending church regularly?"....yes you can be a good christian.
But having said that, there is a need for being an attending member of a church. (And it's not for brownie points with God....) 
There is a need for every christian to have a Pastor. We are "the body" of christ as individual members, but all one body. Whether you have been burned by organized religion, as some have (I was one), or not....we must not forsake that assembling of the body. God put in place Pastors, teachers, apostles, prophets, evangelist for the edifying...(building up) of the body. God calls these offices "gifts". If we didn't need these "gifts" speaking into our lives....God wouldn't have given them to us. I'm pretty sure God knows more than we do.

We are stronger when we gather together for Gods word. 

As for it not feeling right. It may be time for you to find you a new "home" church. God has a special place for us all to be. When you find it, you will know. Start attending different churches and be praying that God will lead you to the place where you fit. A place He has prepared for you.

God bless


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## KSims1868 (Jul 19, 2006)

JHooks said:


> Start attending different churches and be praying that God will lead you to the place where you fit. A place He has prepared for you.
> 
> God bless


I guess I have to admit it really isn't something that I've been praying for. Maybe it is something I should investigate again.


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## deebo (May 22, 2004)

when you find the right church to be a part of, wanting to go and feeling a part of that famnily is not an issue. You will look forward to the fellowship and strength it brings you every time you go. Good luck finding a family that fits you right now.


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## ComeFrom? (May 21, 2004)

KSims1868 said:


> I'm not fishing for any invitations to a Church out of this...I'm just asking a question.
> 
> I've been a Christian all my life. Really got involved in a Church (League City Methodist) and the Youth Group when I was in High School and for a couple years after I graduated, but ever since I came back from college (several years ago) I haven't attended regularly...almost not at all to be honest. When I returned from being gone a couple years the Church that I once knew had gone through some changes. It didn't "feel" the same. The Pastor had been moved to a new Church (far away), and a new one was moved in. I know...change can be good, but it just never felt like the "Church Home" that it felt like for so many years. It wasn't just the Pastor change...the whole "feel" was different. The atmosphere was just not in sync with what I wanted my Church to be.
> 
> ...


Kent;

Don't take offense to this but count the number of times you used "I" in your posts. I hope you get plugged in somewhere you like. Love you bro., take care, CF?


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## KSims1868 (Jul 19, 2006)

I guess I used "I" because I was talking about me and my family personally. I can't speak for others, so using "I" is the only way to express my personal feelings.

I guess I don't see the relevence. Here it's been used 8 times...is that a bad thing?

No offense taken.


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## SeaOx 230C (Aug 12, 2005)

"Forsake not the gathering of yourselves together......." can't tell you you where in "The Book" that is but it is in there.


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## EricF (Feb 14, 2006)

I feel that the "I" comment that CF was making has to do with making your choices more about God and less about yourself. I believe that if you will pray through this and ask God not, "What is your will," but "What is your pleasure" that He will show you and will open your eyes to the fact that He has called us to be part of a body of local believers. There are so many churches out there God will show you the right one. I would only suggest that wherever you go, make sure that the Bible is the foundation that the Church is built on. 

Secondly place all of your faith in Him, not a pastor, a small group leader, or in yourself. He is very clear that He will never leave us or forsake us. I pray that through God you will find what you are looking for. (hope, love, and a sense of belonging.)

Eric


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## coachlaw (Oct 26, 2005)

I read here often, but rarely post. It may be a mistake for me to pipe in here, but something compels me to do so. I apologize for anyone I offend or anything I say that may be unacceptable to anyone here.

I have not gone to church in a very long time. I fellowship with the Lord on a daily basis. Personally, I do not feel that it is necessary for me to go to church at all. I had a strong Christian upbringing and Mom and Dad put me through Christian schools, which has always been a blessing upon my heart and soul. Those teachers taught me that teaching is not just about the subject, but about caring about the students. I was raised a Catholic early on, later chose to be an Episcopalian, went to a Lutheran, then Catholic, then Baptist school. I went to a Methodist church for a while and my grandfather was a staunch Presbyterian. I went to college and had Jewish and Muslim roommates. So I have been exposed to a heckuva lot of organized religion. I've even invited the Jehovah's Witnesses in to hear what they had to say. 

I have always felt closer to God in nature than in a church. The petty behind the back politics that sometimes takes over churches was what really soured me on it. There were great people in every one, and I've tried at least one of every mainstream Christian church in my life. I've even been to a Greek Orthodox church. There is no perfect church because they are made up of human beings who are fallable. I prefer the church of God in nature. I feel that the way I live pleases God and I give thanks for every blessing I have received. I do not think that God cares whether I attend a church or not. I do not feel that it makes me less of a Christian that I do not attend. I'm not sure I could ever find a church that would accept my beliefs, which are a little less than conventional on some issues. The thing that most bothers me about every denomination I have been exposed to is the ridiculous contradictions in their dogma. At the risk of raising the ire of the Baptist constituency here, I'll cite this randomly selected example. 

An extremely literal interpretation of the Bible being the center of the teachings espoused by my particular church at the time is at the center of this one. Christ's fiirst miracle was changing water into wine. The Bible does not say it was grape juice. Why would you serve grape juice at a wedding? (Who's wedding was it anyway? Would it really be so bad if it was indeed Jesus' very own wedding to Mary Magdalene?) Ever put grape juice in an earthen jar in a non-refrigerated environment? Well it ferments into wine in a rather short order. YET they tried to tell me that drinking is a SIN. I do believe that excess is a sin, but not drinking. I've done some sinning in my college days. Anyway, if we are going to be literal, then Jesus caused the entire wedding party to sin. If he indeed tried some of his wine, then (going with this line of thinking)he was a sinner as well. I think this belief is preposterous. I'm not interested in someone explaining this way of thinking. I've heard it all and it has just solidified my opinion. I just wanted to give one of the hundreds of examples of inconsistencies I have found in my religious travels through different churches. 

I think God cares that I believe in him and that I accept Jesus as my Saviour. I do not think you have to be a Christian to go to heaven. I just feel that I have been blessed enough to hear Christ's message. I think Jews (Yep, Jesus was a Jew), Muslims, pagans, atheists, agnostics, Shintoists, Taoists, Hindi, etc. can all go to Heaven if they live right. I think God cares that I treat others better than I expect to be treated. I think he cares that I do my best to leave the world and the lives I touch better than how I found them. I've been told by pastors and priests that this is just not true. I've even been told that once a person has been "Saved", even if they live an evil existence they will go to Heaven. I think this is preposterous as well. I'm not saying I'll never attend church again. I just feel more spiritually elevated when I do good things for people than I ever felt in a pew. Religion and spirituality are intensely personal issues and we all feel a little different about what is more correct. We all need to find our own path and for most this includes attending services. I believe churches form a necessary foundation in our society. When I have children, I will take them to church until they are old enough to make their own decisions and feel in their hearts what is best for them. It's wayyyy past my bedtime, and I've got prayers to say, so I've got to end this long post. 

In short, do what your heart tells you. If you feel you are missing something without attending, and it sounds like you feel that way, then start going. Keep trying different ones until you find one you feel at home with. - Coach


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## ComeFrom? (May 21, 2004)

EricF said:


> I feel that the "I" comment that CF was making has to do with making your choices more about God and less about yourself.


This is where I was Coming From. CF?


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2006)

good question,it leads me to think you're concerned that what you are doing right now is not enough.that is what the bible calls self righteousness.thinking what ,how we live can save us.i'll post the passage later.i was in the same boat back in '92 i'm a good person,i know God,i pray.i don't need no money begging preacher or hypocrital church.i'll be praying for God's direction to lead youto where he wants you . bud


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## luv2fish (Mar 21, 2005)

We spoke yesterday, but one thing we did not share was. Yes, like others have suggested. Pray and ask the Holy Spirit to lead you where the Lord wants you. HIS will be done. And you will know the minute you get there. God is so awesome. And by the way, its great to have you all on this board and in my life. Gods Blessings today and always. Laura


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## rvj (May 14, 2006)

Let us hold fast the confession of _our_ hope without wavering, for He who promised _is_ faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves togather, as is the manner of some. but exhorting _one another_, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. Heb 10:23-24 NKJV.
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. Jer 3:15 KJV.
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, and in the breaking of bread,and in* prayers*. Acts 2;42 KJV.
So Continuing daily with one accord in the *temple, *and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
These are just a few of many scriptures that I've used when the questions that you have asked about came upon myself. several others here have suggested prayer, and I suggest the same. Pray and ask the lord to led you and guide you and he will do so through the power of the holy spirit, and through others who believe in Jesus Christ as their LORD AND SAVIOR, God Bless You.


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## Mrs Backlasher (Dec 19, 2004)

*Coach,*

*I'd like to address some of your comments. In some of them I think you are "right on." On some others, leaning a tad "off." And one is downright dangerous. None of my comments is intended as a slam or a put-down against you. You already KNOW how I feel about you - you are a treasure to me.*


coachlaw said:


> I have always felt closer to God in nature than in a church. The petty behind the back politics that sometimes takes over churches was what really soured me on it.


*It's appropriate that we feel close to God when we're in nature. He intended that the beauty of His creation would draw us to Him.*

*Some churches are changing and becoming less political and petty and becoming more focused on the reasons they exist. Many churches now are following the pattern of a book called The Purpose-Driven Church. *

*The church that Backlasher and I attend is based on that pattern. Our church owns no property. (We've met in a home, in a coffee shop, in a daycare center, in an office building.) Our pastor is bi-vocational. He uses his part-time jobs to reach out to people. Our money goes to ministry endeavors and to starting new churches. The pastor is young and most of the congregation is young.*

*Our church forms small groups for Bible Study, fellowship and ministry. One of the groups is the "Oil Changers." Once a month they set up on a vacant parking lot and do oil changes (we provide the oil and filters) for folks who can't afford to have it done.*

*We switched from Sunday morning worship service to Sunday evening so we could stop paying a lease at the office building and meet in a "sister" church building when they aren't having services. This way we are able to start more churches. Since we don't have worship service on Sunday morning, we've started a Sunday morning park ministry. Those who can, meet at a local park for volleyball, etc. and invite others to join in. They basically infiltrate the park and "make friends for Jesus." They don't even mention our church unless someone asks. The entire focus is just listening to people, being a friend, telling them about the love of God through Jesus, and praying for their needs.*

*Our church does not have business meetings. We have elders who meet and make decisions when needed. So there's not a lot of bickering and politics among the church members.*


coachlaw said:


> ... There is no perfect church because they are made up of human beings who are fallable.


*A big AMEN to that!*


coachlaw said:


> I do not think that God cares whether I attend a church or not.


*We find out what God thinks in His Word, the Bible. The Bible says that Jesus loved the church and died for it. The church (people, not buildings) is the Bride of Christ. It sounds like the church is pretty important to God.*

*The Bible also tells us not to forsake the gathering together as is the manner of some. (The server for "bible.com" is down right now, so I couldn't find the verse reference for you.)*

*Church is the place where we make strong and lasting friendships, where we can join in ministry to others, and it's the place where we are held accountable, and that's a good thing, not a negative.*


coachlaw said:


> I'm not sure I could ever find a church that would accept my beliefs, which are a little less than conventional on some issues.


*I don't think any would try to "get into your head" to expose any of your "less than conventional" ideas. But being exposed to the preaching and teaching of God's Word might, over time, reveal light and truth to shed more understanding to you in those areas.*


coachlaw said:


> Christ's fiirst miracle was changing water into wine. The Bible does not say it was grape juice.


*The Baptist denomination doesn't say it was grape juice either. It was real wine, and it was even better wine than what was served at the beginning of* *the wedding.*

*In the "church covenant" of most Baptist churches there is a clause agreeing not to buy or drink alcoholic beverages. It is an agreement made between brothers and sisters in Christ who join that church. It is not because drinking is a "sin," but because it is not "best" for our life and our Christian witness. Think about how many homes and lives have been wrecked because of alcohol. So if a Baptist drinks an alcoholic drink, does it mean they're going to hell? No, it means they've broken their promise to their brothers and sisters in their church. If the drinking is habitual and/or excessive, the church might become aware of it and could withdraw membership from that person. What would the result of that be? Membership is not required to enter a church and worship. It's doubtful the deacons would grab that person at the door and throw them out. But the church would have expressed their displeasure at having their covenant deliberately broken. Also, that person could move on to another church. There ARE some Baptist churches that do NOT have that clause in their church covenent. I think that clause isn't in the covenant of the Baptist church we attend now (and Baptist is not in our church name). But I still don't drink, because to me it isn't best. (But I DO eat Robs' rum cake!)*

*As far as whether this wedding was Jesus' wedding, it wasn't:*
*"... a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding." (John 2:1,2)*


coachlaw said:


> I do not think you have to be a Christian to go to heaven. I just feel that I have been blessed enough to hear Christ's message. I think Jews (Yep, Jesus was a Jew), Muslims, pagans, atheists, agnostics, Shintoists, Taoists, Hindi, etc. can all go to Heaven if they live right.


*If they live right... But the Bible defines right and wrong for us. And ANY failure to measure up is SIN. And sin carries a penalty.*

*"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Nobody lives right.)*

*"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)*

*"For my Father's will is that everone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6: 40)*

*Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)*

*If there were another way, God would not have sent His only Son. If there were another way, Jesus was a liar and he died in vain."*


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## coachlaw (Oct 26, 2005)

Hey Mrs. B, I made it clear that I didn't want to offend, so I hope you don't feel that way. I was only trying to convey my personal experiences and why I believe what I believe. 

All of what you say is correct about the need for church and fellowship with brethren. However, my experiences have led me to shy away from formal church and organized religion. I am in fellowship with believers whenever I am around them. This may not be the answer my past pastors and priests would approve of, but right now it is what is right for me. I'm sure I'll try again some day, but not too soon. I believe that if I were to die today, I would not be judged poorly for not attending church because I do commune with other believers, just as I am right now. 

As for Christ dying for the church, the church as an organization, buildings or not, did not exist as we think of church existing, nor did he leave instructions on how a church was to be formed. He had called Peter his rock, his foundation upon which one would be built (correct me if I am wrong) but Peter wasa little less than up to the task. The people of the world are the church. 

The drinking thing is illuminating. I wonder why they went so far as to tell us it was not wine but grape juice. It would have been less of an issue for me if I had not felt like they were being dishonest to promote their agenda. These agenda are the motivation for my dislike of organized religion as they are the reason for my disagreements with so many teachings.

Your Biblical quotes are right on. As for the wedding, I reserve the right to believe that the Bible we have today has been edited in the past to suit the desires of a corrupt church. I'd love to be able to believe this was not true, but I cannot. I do not dispute that the Bible is evidence of God's divine word, but I do know that it was not only humans who wrote it, but humans (at the Council of Nicea if I am not mistaken) who decided what to include and what not to include as Canon. I do think there was a lot of politics and corruption involved in these decisions. So here is one of my wacky (I've been called sacreligious and a heretic) beliefs. I do believe Jesus was married. I was introduced to this possibility through my studies in family history. My grandmother and mother often spoke of it. It was well before all the hubbub over the DaVinci Code. I am a descendant of Prince Henry Sinclair, Knight Templar and guardian of the true Grail, (what I do believe to be the descendant of Christ and Mary Magdalene.) I do know why the church wished to expunge this bond from Canon. It is all about land. This elimination of Christ's marital status was committed by a greedy church to ensure (or try to ensure) that priests remain celibate. Legitemate children of the day had a nasty habit of inheriting things like land. The church couldn't have that because land meant wealth. So they lied. This is where Protestants have it right. Priests should be allowed to marry. That same greed and the church's fear of being "found out" was what led to the murder of the Templars and the accusations of heresy. Anyone who thinks the church would not do such things, please read some history. Consider the reason Martin Luther risked everything in hammering his 95 Theses onto the church door in Wittenburg. That's why there even is Protestantism, because the church strayed so far from Christ's teachings. Consider the terrorism and barbarity of the Crusades. Some very very bad people have been Christians and some very very bad things have been done in Christ's name. Zealotry corrupts any religion into murder. Greed creates zealots to promote its agenda. It's a vicious cycle. 

As far as Jesus being the only avenue to salvation, I personally have to disagree. If we are to believe that the God of the Old and New Testaments is the same entity, which I do, then I believe the Jews are God's chosen people. This is a pretty mainstream idea, so I don't think I can be called a heretic on this one. If so, then they must have an avenue to salvation other than Christ, because while they accept him as a prophet (Just as Muslims do) they do not accept him as Saviour. I furthermore refuse to believe that God knowingly consigns millions of souls to perdition because they worship him in another name (Allah) or in another form (the sun, etc.). I believe we will be judged on our balance of good and evil. Yes, we all sin, but all sins are not created equally. (This is another problem I have a huge problem with, the idea that any sin can send you to Hell if you are not a Christian.) I believe Christ can intervene during this judgement and the sins we have asked him to forgive will not appear on the ledger, even the many of the worst ones if we were truly sorry for having commited them. Please notice, I never say that I know these things, I simply believe them. 

I am not an advocate for a strictly literal interpretation of the Bible, because in my opinion it is an imperfect collection of documents, decided upon and edited by imperfect human beings. 

Because I have time, I'll ask that we consider the creation story. I do not believe in a literal interpretation of it. I believe the universe and everything in it was created by a supreme being. (It is ludicrous in my opinion to think as evolutionists do that it is all just a big accident. There is a plan here.) I call him God. Did it take 6 days? Unlikely. Were Adam and Eve the only people he created? Impossible or the human race would not have survived. The scientific fact that incest and in-breeding is bad for us is testament to this. It is manifest in the animal world as well. How did Kane and Able come by their wives without other humans being created? Like the story of the flood, I think it is a simplified story and not meant to be taken literally. Elements of truth exist in each, but to take them literally at every word is a mistake in my opinion. 

I suppose my excommunication papers will be arriving shortly. (That's my overdeveloped sens of humor again.) - Coach

PS. For more information on Prince Henry Sinclair and his voyage to the new world in 1398 (That's almost 100 years before Mr. Columbus "discovered" the new world) just look him up on the net.


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## Mrs Backlasher (Dec 19, 2004)

Coach,

Your speculations (that you are calling beliefs) are not new. But they are speculations, they are not biblical.

I have been knowing Jesus personally and listening to his voice for about 40 years. During that time, he has proven the validity of the Bible to me over and over and over. How? I merely tested it. Put your life on the line. Jesus is a man of his word. Just put it to the test. No speculation is needed. Jesus is alive, he's not dead.


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## yakfisher (Jul 23, 2005)

I consider my church to be the world. Everyday I try to be a light through good thoughts and deeds.


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## srj1523 (Aug 31, 2006)

I may be new to the forum, and I am a young man. I have an impressionable mind, but I do know some things about god. I believe my christian journey is just beginning. I have been saved and though I am young, god has allowed many things to happen in my life so far to lead my straight to him. I have been raised in the church, but have not truly loved god like I do now. I love god very much and its amazing what god has taught me and what he will teach me. I have always known one thing, but I am only beginning to experience it. The bible is never wrong, plain and simple. He tells us that he wants us to be part of a church and that we are to worship, and that we are to spread his word. We are created for this purpose. This is a difficult thing for me to say, but I have lived it and I believe its true for everyone. If you fellowship, study his word, attend a church or churchlike group (Mrs. Backlasher), and share the word of god to nonbelievers...It is still DIFFICULT to keep the faith. So what happens when you stop going to church? You take a part of what god wants you to do, and you throw it away. You give in to what the devil wants for you to do, because lets just say what he is, He is evil. The devil doesnt want you in church, praising the name of god and giving him all your glory! If a church has spurned you then find one that suits your need, because its not about the church ITS ABOUT WORSHIPPING, nothing else matters. If you disagree then move on, if you dont like giving youre money then give it to a cause that matters because god wants you to tithe. God loves us all, and he wants us to follow his word. When you step outside the church and make yourself the church then you are just as human as they are, and are susceptible to sin, YOU ARE NOT PERFECT. That is why we need brothers and sisters around us in numbers to support us and to bring us back to where we need to be, and thats worshipping god and spreading the word. Our strength resides in the lord, but it also resides in numbers. If yall need help shoot me a pm, post a thread, PRAY TO GOD. God would not tell you to step away from the church. The Devil will. God will always call you back to where you need to be brothers and sisters. We all sin, we cant help it we are flesh, but god forgives that because he is a god of love and understanding, so go to him. You cant be strong enough on your own, not even with just a few friends, you need a home of fellow believers. Hope I didnt rant yalls ears off. Mrs. B, you remind me so much of my mom, it makes me homesick. God Bless all of you.


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## SurfRunner (May 22, 2004)

coachlaw said:


> The petty behind the back politics that sometimes takes over churches was what really soured me on it. There were great people in every one, and I've tried at least one of every mainstream Christian church in my life. I've even been to a Greek Orthodox church. There is no perfect church because they are made up of human beings who are fallable.


That is true. I too believe the typical American Church is imperfect. Any church for that matter. I left the mainstream Church for a while and started attending home fellowships. I soon learned those weren't perfect either. I was very bitter at the organizational churches for a while, unitil God spoke to my heart and told me to love His Church like He does. That is with grace.

I have learned that the essence of our Churches (organized or not), or not found in the programs and activities they have and not in the Sunday morning worship service. This is only a part of it. It is in the "one anothers" where I feel the true essence of the Church is at work. When you start developing relationships with other people, conflict occurs - always. This is where your iron really gets sharpened, because relationships with others will always open your own heart and show you your sin inside. This is a good thing and what God wants. Then, you will have to deal with it. Now days, most people leave and find another church instead dealing with the conflict and allowing the Lord to build it and develop His character inside you. In a spiritual sense, the Church is a "living organizm", which is comprised of all those who are in Jesus and He in them.



coachlaw said:


> An extremely literal interpretation of the Bible being the center of the teachings espoused by my particular church at the time is at the center of this one. Christ's fiirst miracle was changing water into wine. The Bible does not say it was grape juice. Why would you serve grape juice at a wedding? (Who's wedding was it anyway? Would it really be so bad if it was indeed Jesus' very own wedding to Mary Magdalene?) Ever put grape juice in an earthen jar in a non-refrigerated environment? Well it ferments into wine in a rather short order. YET they tried to tell me that drinking is a SIN. I do believe that excess is a sin, but not drinking. I've done some sinning in my college days. Anyway, if we are going to be literal, then Jesus caused the entire wedding party to sin. If he indeed tried some of his wine, then (going with this line of thinking)he was a sinner as well. I think this belief is preposterous. I'm not interested in someone explaining this way of thinking. I've heard it all and it has just solidified my opinion. I just wanted to give one of the hundreds of examples of inconsistencies I have found in my religious travels through different churches.


I agree with you. There are a lot of inconstancies. I think if we break it down and look at each individual, we will find inconsistancies in each one of us, including you and I. Hence, this is part of the reason why God sent His Son in the first place. We are not perfect, therefore, the organizations we build will not be either.



coachlaw said:


> I think God cares that I believe in him and that I accept Jesus as my Saviour. I do not think you have to be a Christian to go to heaven. I just feel that I have been blessed enough to hear Christ's message. I think Jews (Yep, Jesus was a Jew), Muslims, pagans, atheists, agnostics, Shintoists, Taoists, Hindi, etc. can all go to Heaven if they live right.


Coach, I am showing you this, in love, not out of trying to prove you wrong on a public forum. I am just trying to show you that you are as guilty as those you make accusations to. I know this because I am the same way sometimes. So please understand where I am coming from.

You just made a statement in your quote above that is inconsistant. You stated that Jesus is your saviour but you can go to Heaven if you live right. Why do you need Jesus to save you if you can make it to Heaven on just living right?

Anyway, please do not think I am attacking you, because I am just a bunch of noise if I do not speak this to you in love.

I think you have relied on your intellegence (your own understanding) in forming your beliefs. When we recieve Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and enter into the Spirit of God, He starts showing us as we mature spiritually some of the mysteries about Him and life to us. He will take you into some deep things that we can only understand through the Spirit - not our intellegence. This is why Jesus says that we must come to him as children and believe by faith. He also talks about how those thinking they are wise become fools (those that lean on their own understanding). The Scriptures also says that "knowlege puffs up but the love of God endures". If Spirituality was based on how we rationalize things then the illiterate will be left out.

If you are saying that Jesus is not the only way to Heaven and all other religions are equal, how more inconsistant can one get? They are all clearly different and inconcistant with each other.

By the amazing Love of God, Jesus came to this earth to atone for our sins. While in other religions, you have to appease an angry God.

Also, God loved us so much that he gave us the freedom to choose to follow Him. He wanted a people he could love and in order to do get real love from us, he gave us the freedom to choose to love Him. Hence, the reason why people will be seperated from God when they die - Because they chose to be.

Recieving Jesus into heart as Lord and Saviour is not an intellectual decision, but a child-like responce to the Holy Spirit speaking to your heart.

Coach, please respond to the Holy Spirit who is tugging at your heart. He will take you into deep places and show you things that you could have never imagined. A lot of the confusion you have will go away and your faith will grow secure. In the end, I promise you, you will never never ever regret it.

As for "A good Christain going to church", I think its ok to miss once in a while.


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## daparson (Dec 4, 2004)

*Just a thought*

Suppose there was going to be an event held in your father's honor. He was part of a rescue attempt at sea that saved dozens of lives and he was recognized for uncommon courage in the face of imminent peril. They were going to sing songs to honor him, people who were saved by his bravery were going to tell their story of how he had impacted their lives. He had even written words of instruction and inspiration that were going to be read to encourage people to selflessness and service.

Perhaps even take it a step further - you were one that had been rescued - this man had saved your life - and you were asked to participate in the event.

Your response? Nah &#8230; I am going fishing.

*Matthew 6:21 Wherever your treasure is, there your heart and thoughts will also be. *

I can't wait for Sundays - I don't go for the people - some I love deeply, others irritate me to no end, some are good as gold others are phoney as a $3.00 bill. None are perfect - all are flawed - especially me. I go out of love, gratitude, honor and respect to the One who rescued me. What I do on Sunday is a direct reflection as to what I truly value. It is an issue of the heart.

I can't think of anywhere I would rather be.

Mark


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## coachlaw (Oct 26, 2005)

Lot to respond to here, and not a lot of time. First of all, Mrs. B, you said my beliefs are speculations and you are correct. They are speculations which I choose to believe in though. I'm not trying to get anyone to think the way I do. I've got some admittedly wacky beliefs or speculations. They are a result of deep thought and prayer. Does it mean I am assuredly correct? Not even close, but it is what I feel best believing in. 


Surfrunner, Don't worry. I do not think you are attacking me! When you talk religion, it brings out people's passions because nothing brings out passion like our faiths. When we speak of these things, it's important not to get your feelings hurt because so many of us passionately disagree with each other. To me this ability to discuss our beliefs is a blessing of freedom and I am happy to do it. I do not expect a single soul to agree with my position. My original post spoke of my journey and why I do not attend at this time. I recognized that the original poster DID feel in his heart that he was missing something in his life, whereas I do not as yet feel this way. I recommended that he keep trying to find a new church home. Churches are a foundation of our social structure. Without them, this country would be lost. I'm on a break from it all though. The original poster sounds like he has been through that and he is ready to return. Good for him. I think God is speaking to his heart and he is listening. I think I'll feel the same way one day. I actually hope I do, but not now, and I am fine with it. I think God is too, but this is just my speculation (what I believe.) 

Inconsistencies are fine with me. I used to be a black and white person, no gray area allowed. Christ is my saviour because I heard his message and believed. What of people that have never heard? What of people who have heard, but they saw that those delivering the message were leading a life that was inconsistent with the message? American Indians come to mind here especially. 

I know that fundamentalist Christian beliefs abhor the gray area, but my speculation is that God is understanding. 

I have just a few minutes, so I will toss this out. What about animals? Do they have souls? Since they are incapable of sin, would they not all go to Heaven? That's what I think. Some people say they don't have souls to go on to the afterlife. Some people say they go Hell. I say certain animals have souls. I say that they do go to Heaven. I speculate and believe that I will one day be reunited with all my cats and dogs and even my horse. I've found little support on this one from clergy, but it's important to me and I believe it. Just as with my other thoughts, I don't expect others to agree. 

All this being said, I'm going back into "lurk" mode. I'll see Mrs. B soon and I'm sure we'll spend some time talking about all this. Take Care, Coach


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## Stuart (May 21, 2004)

coachlaw said:


> ...............Inconsistencies are fine with me. I used to be a black and white person, no gray area allowed. Christ is my saviour because I heard his message and believed. What of people that have never heard? What of people who have heard, but they saw that those delivering the message were leading a life that was inconsistent with the message? American Indians come to mind here especially.
> 
> I know that fundamentalist Christian beliefs abhor the gray area, but my speculation is that God is understanding.
> 
> ...


The way it was explained to me once and makes sense to me is that everyone is born with "the light of God" within them. If they choose in their life to do "good" and acknowledge a higher power, then God knows where their heart is.

I don't beleive that animals have a "soul" anything like ours. With that said, I do believe that they are part of God's creation and God is going to restore and make new that creation some day and I think our pets could definitely be a part of that.


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## Dmax2500 (Sep 4, 2006)

I agree with all of what Coach has said even though I'm Catholic. I do not feel one has to go to church to make good with the Lord. When your judgement comes, God will look at your life as a whole and not just wether you went to church or not on Sunday's.


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## Livininlogs (Oct 12, 2005)

*You hit the nail on the head*



srj1523 said:


> I may be new to the forum, and I am a young man. I have an impressionable mind, but I do know some things about god. I believe my christian journey is just beginning. I have been saved and though I am young, god has allowed many things to happen in my life so far to lead my straight to him. I have been raised in the church, but have not truly loved god like I do now. I love god very much and its amazing what god has taught me and what he will teach me. I have always known one thing, but I am only beginning to experience it. The bible is never wrong, plain and simple. He tells us that he wants us to be part of a church and that we are to worship, and that we are to spread his word. We are created for this purpose. This is a difficult thing for me to say, but I have lived it and I believe its true for everyone. If you fellowship, study his word, attend a church or churchlike group (Mrs. Backlasher), and share the word of god to nonbelievers...It is still DIFFICULT to keep the faith. So what happens when you stop going to church? You take a part of what god wants you to do, and you throw it away. You give in to what the devil wants for you to do, because lets just say what he is, He is evil. The devil doesnt want you in church, praising the name of god and giving him all your glory! If a church has spurned you then find one that suits your need, because its not about the church ITS ABOUT WORSHIPPING, nothing else matters. If you disagree then move on, if you dont like giving youre money then give it to a cause that matters because god wants you to tithe. God loves us all, and he wants us to follow his word. When you step outside the church and make yourself the church then you are just as human as they are, and are susceptible to sin, YOU ARE NOT PERFECT. That is why we need brothers and sisters around us in numbers to support us and to bring us back to where we need to be, and thats worshipping god and spreading the word. Our strength resides in the lord, but it also resides in numbers. If yall need help shoot me a pm, post a thread, PRAY TO GOD. God would not tell you to step away from the church. The Devil will. God will always call you back to where you need to be brothers and sisters. We all sin, we cant help it we are flesh, but god forgives that because he is a god of love and understanding, so go to him. You cant be strong enough on your own, not even with just a few friends, you need a home of fellow believers. Hope I didnt rant yalls ears off. Mrs. B, you remind me so much of my mom, it makes me homesick. God Bless all of you.


SRJ i've been reading this thread through the day and wasn't sure how to respond but you did a jam up job there. Will going to church assure you get to heaven,,,NO. Then why go? lets just say for me it's a spiritual recharge. You live in this world you have the devil attaching you each day. Seems the closer you get to God the more the devil Attaches you. Surrounding yourself with your Brothers and sisters in Christ strengthens your armor and recharges your batteries for the week. Most the things you here about not liking a church is Doctoral. As long as you are in the good Bibal based church your in the right place. keep looking you'llfind where you need to be.


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