# Trying my hand at real 'Sour Rye Bread'



## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

For Christmas I got a new book, "Inside the Jewish Bakery". It contains the recipes/memories from the golden age of Jewish baking and it is a fascinating historical read. The reason I wanted this book was to learn to make real (Eastern European) sour rye bread, which is much more time consuming/difficult to do than other rustic breads.

I started on my 2 1/2 week long journey yesterday by starting the the sour seed culture, which in itself is 4 day process. Once this seed culture is viable, I will start building the sour itself by feeding the naturally occurring wild yeast daily for 14 days. I can then attempt my first loaf.

Now some may wonder why I'm going through all this trouble... Well I've had a hanker'in for a GOOD pastrami sandwich and I need a GOOD foundation to build it on. LOL!!! In about a week, I'm going to start pickling/brining a couple of briskets for 2-3 weeks, but that is another topic in itself...










Here is the sour seed culture (after Day 1):


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Haven't seen much 'activity' yet, although is does a somewhat acidic/sour aroma to it... Here is the sour seed culture (after Day 2):

:cheers:


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

I can see 'activity' now. The culture has grown in size & has a very spongy texture beneath the surface. It also has a pronounced yeasty & sour/acidic aroma. 

Tomorrow, I will start 'building the structure' per the book with morning & evening 'feedings'. Starting to feel like I have a new pup to take care of... LOL!

Here is the sour seed culture (after Day 3):

:cheers:


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

It's day 4 and the culture has continued growing in size & is much even more aromatic. It is also much 'spongier'...


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

At this point, I can start 'building the structure' of the final sour... To do this, I will need to feed the beast 2X/day as follows:

*A.M. Feeding** (see note #1*)
1/2 cup of the sour seed culture
1/2 cup wheat or rye flour (I'm using rye)
1/4 cup warm water (90 degrees)

*P.M. Feeding** (see note #2*)
1 cup of the sour culture from the A.M. feeding
1/2 cup wheat or rye flour (I'm using rye)
1/4 cup warm water (90 degrees)

*#1) Discard excess sour from the previous P.M. feeding (there won't be any on the first day). Add water to the sour & mix to a smooth paste, then add flour & blend. Cover loosely so that the carbon dioxide can escape & let rest at room temperature.

#2) Add water to the sour from the A.M. feeding & mix as above. Continue this routine for 14 days.*

After the sour has matured, keep it refrigerated in a covered container & feed once or twice weekly. If you care for the culture, you will never need to go through this process again.

I'll update this thread again when I'm ready to start the loaves.


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## jdusek (Apr 7, 2006)

Crazy long my friend but you make some dam fine looking food.


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## Greg E (Sep 20, 2008)

I just read this. Sounds like a great project.


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## Law Dog (Jul 27, 2010)

Sound good!


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## swglenn (Sep 20, 2009)

What is the recipe to start the sour seed?


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Sorry Glenn, I should have posted it on the original post, but I was just so darned to excited, LOL. The formula uses nothing more than whole-grain rye flour to incubate & feed the naturally occurring wild yeasts that are contained in the rye itself. Here it is:

*Day 1*
3/4 cup of whole grain rye flour
1/4 cup of water

*Day 2*
1/2 cup of Day 1's culture
3/4 cup of whole grain rye flour
1/4 cup of water

*Day 3*
1/2 cup of Day 3's culture
3/4 cup of whole grain rye flour
1/4 cup of water

*Day 4*
1/2 cup of Day 3's culture
3/4 cup of whole grain rye flour
1/4 cup of water

*Day 5*
You can now start building the sour. (see posts 4 & 5)


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

5 more days to go on the sour rye... Our laundry room is really smells like a brewery at this point, LOL!!!

Just for the heck of it, I took about 100 grams of it & started a wheat culture too. I figured a San Francisco-style sourdough bread would be a nice addition & give us a little bit more variety.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Today is the day, I can finally stop the twice a day feedings... The cultures will now be on 'maintenance' which only require being fed once per week and storing them in the refrigerator. Here are what the 2 sour cultures look like upon completion.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Now I can finally get a couple of rye loaves going... I've been told to start with an easy recipe as that working with rye is unlike working with regular wheat doughs (rye is extremely sticky). So I'm to start by attempting Old-style Deli Rye, which is only 40% rye. It is supposed to have the pronounced flavor & texture of rye, with the handling virtues of wheat. It uses a 3-stage build (2 days).

The first stage was completed at 0900 hrs this morning.

*DAY 1, STAGE 1*
1 Tbs. of the sour rye culture
1/3 cup of rye flour
3 Tbs of warm water

Combine the above ingredients in a bowl & cover it with either a dinner plate or plastic wrap. Put it in a warm, dark place for 5 - 6 hrs, until it has increased in bulk & has a fresh, sour smell.

When this is done, we'll move on to Stage 2... probably around 1500 hrs. Until then,


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Ok, day1 - step1 is done, unto step 2...

*DAY 1, STAGE 2*
1/2 cup of the sour rye culture from Step 1 (basically that is everything)
2 1/2 cups of rye flour
3/4 cup + 2 Tbs of warm water (90 degrees)

Add flour & water to the sour from Step 1 and let ferment for 4 or 5 hrs, until bubbly, them refrigerate overnight.

Looks like I will be staying up a little latter than normal (next time I'll get an earlier start, LOL!!!)...

Here is the picture after completing this step. See you tomorrow...


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

OK, day1 - step2 (top picture attached) is done, unto day 2 step 3... The combining of ingredients to form the final dough.

*DAY 2, STAGE 3*
3 cups of the sour rye culture from Step 2 (basically that is everything)
4 cups of high-gluten flour
1 1/4 cups of hot water (108 degrees)
1 1/4 tsp of instant yeast
2 3/4 tsp of salt
1 Tbs of ground caraway seeds
4 Tbs of whole caraway seeds

Add the hot water to the sour from step 2, stirring to blend. In a seperate bowl, combine the high-gluten flour, yeast, salt, ground caraway seeds and 2 Tbs of the whole caraway seeds and blend these dry ingredients thoroughly. Add the sour/water mixture continue mixing by hand or with a flat paddle on your wife's KitchenAid Mixer until the dough is smooth & firm.

Switch to a dough hook & knead for another 8 minutes, until the dough is a smooth & firm ball. Place the resulting dough ball in a big bowl & cover it with a damp tea towel or plastic wrap until the dough doubles in size.

When that is done, turn the dough out unto your work surface & degas it thoroughly. Divide it into 2 equal pieces & roll into balls. Press the dough into a flat oval & roll it towards you (jelly-roll style) into your final loaves.rounding the ends of each loaf.

Set the loaves seam side down on a piece of parchment paper (generously dusted paper with cornmeal) that is on a proofing board or pizza peel. Cover with a damp tea towel & allow to rise until the reach 1.5 times their original bulk (about 60 minutes). You can tell when the loaves are fully proofed when a finger poked gently into the surface leaves a dent.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Ok, they are fully proofed & read to go...

I preheated the oven to 375 degrees and filled a pie dish with water & slid it into the middle of the lowest rack (this will provide the high humidity needed for 'oven-spring' and to help keep the crust relatively pliable to prevent a blowout).

I lightly sprayed the loaves with water & sprinkled the last 2 tablespoons of the whole caraway seeds unto the tops of the loaves and then scored them (also to prevent blowouts).

When the oven reached 375, I slid them from the proofing board unto my big pizza stone and set the timer for 20 minutes. I then rotated the loaves to ensure even browning & set the timer for another 20 minutes. When the crust was a deep golden brown, I removed them from the oven, 'thumped" them on the bottoms to see if they were done & then transferred them to cooling racks.

Now I just have to wait until they cool... Time for a drink. I'll post the picture of the 'crumb' tomorrow.


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## Maitai53 (Jan 20, 2011)

Congratulations! Labor of love.


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## gator409 (Sep 15, 2004)

ugh the address is ?????????
looks wonderful. so the the 1/2 cup left over ever day in the beginning did you make 2 or throw away excess?


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Mostly I just threw it out... I did use some at the end of the 14 day period to start a sour wheat culture & some to try in a sourdough Italian bread...


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

WOW!!! All I can say is it came out great!!! A pretty pronounced sour rye taste & it was not overpowering.

I will be attempting 60% rye loaves next week working my way up to the 100% loaves. Learned a lot about the handling & shaping techniques... they are definitely different than those of a wheat dough.


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## Gas Can (May 25, 2007)

I was pumped up to see some old Jewish fisherman breadmaking going on up in here but when I got to the end of the post, I see a "Ham" and cheese sandwich! Oy vey! Anything but ham! Don't get me wrong, I don't keep kosher and have no aversion to good ham despite being MOT ("member of the tribe"). It's just sacrilege that you went to all the trouble to create this wonderful bread and didn't procure some fine corned beef or pastrami! Make the trip down to Kenny & Ziggy's in the Galleria and ask Gruber to fix you up! Tell him Markowitz sent you!


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## FISH TAILS (Jan 17, 2005)

Looks good! Gas Can Ziggy's is awesome!!


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Gas Can said:


> It's just sacrilege that you went to all the trouble to create this wonderful bread and didn't procure some fine corned beef or pastrami! Make the trip down to Kenny & Ziggy's in the Galleria and ask Gruber to fix you up! Tell him Markowitz sent you!


Well Gas Can, like I said in the first post, I will be making my own pastrami pretty soon... like when I can do an 80-100% rye loaf.

BTW, I ain't driving 320 miles (round trip) to Galleria & putting up with the traffic for nothing. Ham & cheese on rye works good enough for now, at least for this Roman Catholic ****, LOL!!!


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## Gas Can (May 25, 2007)

Post up some pastrami pix when its ready!


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Will do Gas Can. 

The 60% loaves where darn good (we loved the strong flavor), but I'm still learning to deal with the 'stickiness' of the dough when handling... 

Next week, I'm going to attempt the 80% loaves, I will probably keep the faucet running & wet myself up to my elbows just to form them, LOL!!!


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Well, today is the day for me to try my hand at an 80% loaf. Going to try a few things different this time, first off I'm going to use the wife's big KichenAid mixer because rye dough is so sticky that it is challenging to work with. Second, I'm going to try baking it in one of my smaller dutch ovens in the hope that it will help support the side walls of the bread (rye contains very little gluten to support the cell structure). Hope it works or I'll have very heavy/dense flat bread. 

Got it all ready this morning and put it in the greenhouse to rise.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

The 1st rise is now complete...

Prepped a 5 quart dutch oven by liberally coating the inside with vegetable oil & then corn meal. Wetted down the work surface (to help prevent the dough from stinking) & dumped the dough onto it. Keeping my hands wet, I gently degassed it & shaped it into a semi-manageable 'pile' (I won't call it a ball). I then deposit it into the dutch oven for the 2nd/final rise... I went ahead & sprinkled additional whole caraway on the top. Now we wait...

It should be ready to bake around 1500 hrs.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

The second rise is complete... all I could say when I went out to check it was "Oh my God!!! What have I done???" as it has practically risen to the top of the dutch oven. I was not expecting it to rise this much...

This is going to be challenging to bake... I'm going to start @ 375 degrees & then lower it... Keeping my fingers crossed that this thing doesn't stick...


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

No problem with it sticking, 'Thank you God!!!'. 

My first impressions of the 'finish product' is that I'm not happy with the appearance. I was hoping for a more 'bolle' appearance (domed ball shape), I did not get the 'oven bounce' I was hoping for at all, although the dutch oven did support the side walls quite well.

I will reserve my final judgement till tomorrow, when I cut it & check both the crumb, texture & the taste... I will then bring it to my buddy (the baker) to get his recommendations. Till tomorrow... :cheers:


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

I cut it this morning, the crumb came out good & the taste is there... the rye flavor is strong, as is the sour. It is not overly dense, although it did weight in at a little over 4 lbs. Overall it came out pretty good, it just didn't get the 'oven spring' I had hoped for.

Going to visit my friend the baker this morning & get some additional pointers...


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## whistech (Jul 25, 2005)

Sure looks good to me!


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

I bought a sourdough starter from King Arthur flour several years ago. The first few loaves of bread were "kinda" sour - but as the yeast ages it takes on the flavor of local yeast and loses the sour flavor I wanted. 

You can supplement that by adding powdered citric acid to your flour.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Gas Can, here's the homemade pastrami:

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showpost.php?p=4922715&postcount=11


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