# Bedding and floating and accuracy



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

I saw a gun show on TV last night that re illustrated a pet peave I have had forever. People spend hundreds of dollars bedding and floating their barrels to eliminate any contact with the stock so as to improve their accuracy. They take the proverbial dollar bill, insert it between the bbl and the stock, and slide it all the way back showing no bbl/stock contact. They then go to shoot their gun and put their hand on top of the barrel or on top of the scope, applying irregular pressure to the bbl, which will change the harmonics of the bbl, totally negating the solution they just spent hundreds of dollars on. 

The offending shooter last night was, of all people, Larry Weishun. It showed him shooting a scoped bolt action, leaning against a rock to his left, with his left hand out wrapping it around the top of the bbl. I can't tell you how many times at the range I have seen people either doing the same thing, or resting their left hand on top of their scope (essentially putting a downward force on the action/bbl. Or worse they rest the bbl on the sand bag they are shooting off of. Unless you put the bbl in the exact same place every time, and then measure where on the bbl that place is, and then when you shoot a deer out of blind, rest your rifle on the blind window at that exact same mark, your accuracy will suffer.

This totally changes the harmonics of the bbl, and will affect accuracy. Black powder cartridge silhouette shooters will rest their barrel on their cross sticks, because the bbls are so long and the stocks so short. But they have their bbls marked so they put it in the same place every time. When putting your hand on the bbl or scope it's impossible to apply the exact same amount of pressure every shot, thus introducing a negative input to your accuracy.

Let the "pot stirring" begin.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Almost lime my friends that swear by their float/bedding and then stuff'em in a lead sled and cinch them down with a strap over the barrel
I've shot my best group off of 2 4"X4"s with a sock layed on the top to protect the finish.


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## DUTY FIRST (Jun 23, 2012)

I agree that a free floating barrel is limited in accuracy by what you describe. I fully glass bed the entire action and barrel using 
Brownell's Acraglas Gel Bedding. I have several such rifles that are stunningly accurate. I wish I was as capable of accuracy in my advancing years as they are. These rifles never require any adjustment. Year in and year out they are dead on zero.

Some advantages to full glass bedding are that there is no room for a seed, twig, or other foreign object to become lodged between barrel and stock, creating a pressure point, and barrel vibration (harmonic) is always the same regardless of the issues you describe. In addition, the firm and consistent pressure between barrel and stock lessens harmonic changes due to humidity and temperature, both ambient air temp and barrel temp as it heats up while firing. This keeps the POI consistent as the barrel heats up. It also allows better accuracy with a wide range of loads (after necessary sight adjustment for load differences). 

While glass bedding the action only, and leaving the barrel free floating is better than most factory bedding, the full length bedding in most cases is superior. It is a bit harder to do properly and make it look good, since it requires some skill in inletting the barrel channel and stock color matching, but is well worth the effort.

There will always be differences of opinion on the subject, but this is what works for me.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Hey Jammer

Certainly not an exact science. As always some do better full length bedded and some do not. Over the years on average IMHO the free floated barrels seem to maintain their accuracy somewhat better. It depends on the stock. A lightweight wooden stock seems to have a tendecy to move with humidity therefore causing pressure to change on the barrel. (thats the theory anyway). So if its free floated the impact is less. I have seen full length bedded guns shoot better that way also with another wedge placed between the end of the stock and the barrel. Apparently this also dampens some of the vibration of the barrel being wedged against the stock. So as it is said "Its what makes you happy" . All mine are free floated and glass bedded because I have fun doing it. Regarding placing hands on, or leaning or resting barrels on what you have available it all depends on what range you are shooting. Its gonna make some difference but lets not make mountains out of molehills. If we are shooting 300 to 1,000 yards it could but normal hunting ranges naw it aint gonna show. 

OK I want the popcorn concession LOL Have at it boys.(and girls)


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

A short, stiff barrel will not be affected by pressure all that much from what I have seen. 

I have witnessed POI shift on an AR15 before I switched to a free float handguard. It was an easy 2-3" shift. That was with a M4 type profile barrel which is not nearly as heavy as my bolt gun. I have accidentally rested the barrel on a weird position while making a long shot and had no shift from a prior shot in a well rested position.


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

I have a Remington Model 7 in .260. I free floated it and it shot worse than when it had a block at the forearm tip to exert pressure on the barrel. This is the one and only rifle showing free floating does not work for it. All other rifles shot better once they are free floated.


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## Reloder28 (Apr 10, 2010)

My rifles are professionally bedded, $$$. They are all accurate. I ALWAYS put my hand atop the scope at the range while shooting. The scope is attached to the action, not the barrel. Harmonics remain the same therefore.


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## ReelWork (May 21, 2004)

mas360 said:


> I have a Remington Model 7 in .260. I free floated it and it shot worse than when it had a block at the forearm tip to exert pressure on the barrel. This is the one and only rifle showing free floating does not work for it. All other rifles shot better once they are free floated.


There's a chance you aren't securing the mounting screws properly - either too tight or too loose. I did this on my Ruger M77 and the result was shots all over the paper. Balls on first shot, low second, high third - like I said, all over the place! :hairout:

Couldn't figure it out..

Took it into Hill Country Rifle and had them do a complete pillar and bedding, trigger job and it's a flat out shooter now. It was good before I messed it up it but it's amazing now.

I asked why it was doing what it was doing and he said more often than not the screws are too tight because people crank 'em down. Or on stocks with multiple screws (like my M77) they aren't at the same tightness. Either way, I'm very happy with it now and it NEVER shot this well before.


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

ReelWork said:


> There's a chance you aren't securing the mounting screws properly - either too tight or too loose. I did this on my Ruger M77 and the result was shots all over the paper. Balls on first shot, low second, high third - like I said, all over the place! :hairout:
> 
> Couldn't figure it out..
> 
> ...


I bedded it but did not use pillars.

It shot better before the bedding though. The mounting screws then was not tightened any differently than now....just snugged it up tight plus a quarter turn and that was it.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

Bedding without pillars is a waste of time and money. You will probably never see a sniper or competition bench rest gun with a bedded barrel. I dont like the Acraglas at or Acracrap at all. I use Devcon and aluminum pillars I machine. If your gun shoots worse with a floated barrel you have other issues going on. A poorly bedded action or bad load combo may shoot worse when the barrel is floated on a non bedded action but pillar bedding and a free floating barrel will always shoot better unless the gun has other isssues.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I have to guess pillars must make things better. Its newer than just glass. But back in the dark ages there was nothing but glass so thats what we did. It always helped. Acraglass was what we had and it worked well. Did mine with it a few months back and seems to be doing OK.Wont condem something new (pillars) cuz I know nothing about it. Didnt know what folks were talking about first time I heard it. But being a hunter and not a paper shooter I am OK with what I have. 

Reminds me of back in the day shooting 200 yard bench rest at Carters against open guns. Bull Barrels and any caliber. Shooting a 7mm Rem mag glass bedded and full length barrel bed with tight wedge . Enjoyed taking those frozen turkeys we would win and auction them off for .50 cents a ticket making money.


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

The guy on TV....did he get what he was shooting at?


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## deckh (Jul 23, 2010)

Funny--None of you guys mentioned the correct torque (inch pounds) for the type of set up you have-stock, etc. There are different torque settings depending on --wood stock, fiberglass stock, tupperware stock, full glass bed, glass bed action only , pillar bed and glass bed, and so on. You can easily find out the torque recommendations via the internet. I have done all of the above and torque settings do make a difference. You all can easily find out the torque specifications via the internet. My 2 cents.. hwell:


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

deckh

Good point. I never had a torque wrench just tightened her till she seemed tight. LOL


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## deckh (Jul 23, 2010)

Charlie, Usually, the torque settings are different for the front and the rear stock bolts/screws. I bought an elcheapo 1/4 inch torque wrench from Harbor Freight years ago when it was on sale. A friend got one from Midway but he paid more for his. I use a 1/4 socket on it and insert the correct size screw driver blade or if the bolts are allen head i use one of those.:cheers:


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

deckh

Yes sir normally they are different and sometimes different sized screws. Usually smaller screw behind trigger. But saying that all the xperts say replace the smaller screw with a bigger one. Helps accuracy.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

Thats why you want pillars. The torque on the screws is far less important.


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## DUTY FIRST (Jun 23, 2012)

Pillars can be stand alone, or combined with glass bedding. I prefer wood stocks and use glass bedding without pillars. Your experience may be different. 

There is no single, best method for all rifles. If your rifle shoots MOA or better, after every reassembly, regardless of weather, and can handle a wide range of loads accurately, you have found the best method for your particular rifle.

Here is a link to an article with more information about pillars and bedding. 

http://www.switchbarrel.com/Alum_pil_Bedding.htm


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## ReelWork (May 21, 2004)

deckh said:


> Funny--None of you guys mentioned the correct torque (inch pounds) for the type of set up you have-stock, etc. There are different torque settings depending on --wood stock, fiberglass stock, tupperware stock, full glass bed, glass bed action only , pillar bed and glass bed, and so on. You can easily find out the torque recommendations via the internet. I have done all of the above and torque settings do make a difference. You all can easily find out the torque specifications via the internet. My 2 cents.. hwell:


That's exactly what I was saying and you're right, torque settings can make a huge difference.. The screws can be too loose or tight which is what was happening to mine but was remedied with a good pillar job and now it's not that big of a deal.


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## deckh (Jul 23, 2010)

There are specific torque settings for PILLAR bedded rifles. I have turned my own pillars on the lathe and glass bedded them and torque settings are used . Do what you want to make your rifle shoot its best. Has anyone goggled for the torque settings? Apparently not. Each rifle is an entity unto itself. Good shooting.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

Mobe Renolds tested barrels for Ed Shillen and taught me to how to pillar bed and how to check it with a dial indicator. He never used a torque wrench and neither do I. If done properly the torque is a non issue. Takes away stock crush and action flex. I bet 90% of people over tighten the action bolts. All my rifles will shoot one hole groups at 100 yards if you do your part.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Bottomsup said:


> Mobe Renolds tested barrels for Ed Shillen and taught me to how to pillar bed and how to check it with a dial indicator. He never used a torque wrench and neither do I. If done properly the torque is a non issue. Takes away stock crush and action flex. I bet 90% of people over tighten the action bolts. All my rifles will shoot one hole groups at 100 yards if you do your part.


What is your definition of one hole group? To me, for a 308, that's .308" from outside to outside for five shots. All five shots on top of each other (davy crockett style) inside the same hole. Or do you mean no paper left inside the perimetertop? It is possible to have a .308" group , center to center and still have one "hole." Nothing wrong with .308" groups


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

*one hole is one hole*

jammmer-to us ********, one hole is one hole-very few of us carry around calipers around and measure for exact caliber(as competitive benchrest). if 3 or 5 shot string makes one ragged hole-it is a one hole gun. so if my buddy says his gun shoot "one hole" , it is very understood that the group string touches all others and yeild ONE hole....


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

mrsh978 said:


> jammmer-to us ********, one hole is one hole-very few of us carry around calipers around and measure for exact caliber(as competitive benchrest). if 3 or 5 shot string makes one ragged hole-it is a one hole gun. so if my buddy says his gun shoot "one hole" , it is very understood that the group string touches all others and yeild ONE hole....


Marsh, understand. I'm actually one of those anal guys who, when I get back from the range, DO pull out my calipers, measure every group, and record it- date-range-number of shots-powder type and weight- bullet- brand of brass (used or new), seating depth, wind conditions, and group (first number is total group size, second number best 4, to allow for a flyer- like 1.3"/.7"), and any notes like: "called flyer, try again."

Therefore 2 years down the road when I think I might like to try a new load, I go through my records to see if I've already tried it, and can see what the results were. Anal? Yes. Efficient? Yes.

I actually did have a gun, got from my Dad's closet after he died- custom made 264 winmag on a 1917 enfield action. Took it to the range- first 3 shots with off the shelf ammo, same hole. I mean same hole- I thought I had missed paper (but I had 5 targets up, and was shooting at the middle target, so it would have had to have been a major miss high or low), then shots 4 and 5, and it "strungout" to about .4" group. I said man I got a shooter here. so I took it home and spent the rest of the afternoon cleaning it, because it was a mess. Bottom line, it hasn't shot that well since. BOOM!! But it's still about a .7" gun with 140 gr accubonds- good load for that caliber.

Although there has been some fantastic info imparted on this post regarding pillars, bedding, etc., the main point I originally was trying to make is some shooters' shooting habits of negating work they have done on their gun by putting weight on their bbl with hands or whatever, or resting their bbls on their front rest. If you've ever seen a super high speed video of a gun bbl when it is fired, you will know what I'm talking about. Those bbls really whip around, and if it is moving up and down, your accuracy is directly related to the bullet leaving the bbl at the exact same point in the movement cycle as possible. As soon as you change pressure on a different part of the bbl, you totally change the occilation cycle of that bbl, thus potentially changing where the end of the bbl is when the bullet leaves it- thus affecting your accuracy.

I'm curious if those of you have said it won't make that much difference have ever actually tested out your theories. Next time you're at the range, shoot a group with your best gun resting your stock on the front rest like we should, let it cool and then shoot another one resting your actual bbl on the front rest. Bet you might see a difference. I've done it. CAn't tell you how many times I have been at Carter's watching someone shooting their gun with not very good results. Many times they are resting their bbls on the front rest. I have very politely suggested to them to put the stock on the front rest-Immediate improvement.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jam

Yes sir I agree with you (as most always) but being a practical guy and a hunter not a paper shooter I dont think the impact of resting or touching the barrel is going to cause a miss of a deer (or what have you) at 100 yards. That was my basic comment. If I am trying for that 1 hole group as you described its a different story.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

*groups*

jammer-i am busting your balls a little here. i grew up around anal benchrest shooters and have absorbed the need for accuracy and nothing less...but there is only .003% like that in the normal population of shooting this day and age=so a rifle that can throw 3-5 shots in the same general area-more than accurate enough. and i do know that barrell pressure can effect harmonics-how far? it just depends on so many varibles....


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

Does this count as a one hole group? It measured .223" center to center, .446" outside...with a .223


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Nope that aint one hole, I can count at least 4. LOL


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

What he said but my 22-250 shoots much smaller one hole groups.



mrsh978 said:


> jammmer-to us ********, one hole is one hole-very few of us carry around calipers around and measure for exact caliber(as competitive benchrest). if 3 or 5 shot string makes one ragged hole-it is a one hole gun. so if my buddy says his gun shoot "one hole" , it is very understood that the group string touches all others and yeild ONE hole....


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

If it doesnt shoot sub 1/4" groups it not good enough for me.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Charlie, march, and bottomsup

Roger all that. All sounds good to me. Great discussion, and that's what this board's all about.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jammer

Always a pleasure BS'n with you. You are most always on target.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

CHARLIE said:


> Jammer
> 
> Always a pleasure BS'n with you. You are most always on target.


Likewise there Charles.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Now regarding ole Bottoms up dont know what to say about him. He caint even get that picture turned over LOL


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

Oh I could but it might give you a heart attack!



CHARLIE said:


> Now regarding ole Bottoms up dont know what to say about him. He caint even get that picture turned over LOL


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Sho nuff probably right LOL..but what a way to go.. Ha, good yakin at cha


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