# 308 Grouping Issues



## CharlesRab (May 24, 2012)

All right, I am at a loss here. I have a Remington 700p 26"bbl with h&s stock. I have a load worked up with 43g of IMR 4064. One day it will shoot .361 group then the next day it will open up to almost an inch then it will close back up again. Everything is tightened down, nothing loose. I have a buddy whose gun smith told him to tighten his stock screws down more to 80" lbs. The details of load are :
175 Berger VLD Hunting
IMR 4064 43g
CCI BR2 
Hornady Match Case
2.8 OACL
2.12 Ogive 
2650 average FPS


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## 6.5 shooter dude (Jan 8, 2008)

I'm Loading up 42 gr of IMR 4895 with 165 Sierra game kings and using the same cases. Shooting the same gun and it shoots a ragged hole. I would try another scope and mount.

Also using CCI 200 primers.


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## Dallas157 (Aug 3, 2013)

Are you cleaning the barrel with a copper solvent after each trip? If so I'd shy away from it. Personally, I only punch the bore with copper remover about twice a year and shoot atleast monthly.

I was experiencing the same problem with a bolt action FN. Long story short I was too excited about shooting the thing and screwing the fundamentals up. You may not have the same issues as me, but one way to find out is to bring another rifle with you and shoot about a box out of it. After that most of the excitement will be gone and you be shooting clovers. It sounds kind of crazy but it worked for me.


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## Bigj (Jul 22, 2007)

get away from CCI period Federal or Winchester the best way to go. I use to use 4064 43.5 gone to 8208 and 155 smk


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## deckh (Jul 23, 2010)

Charles, Re the 80 inch pound torque setting. IMHO that is too much. If you google for torque settings you will get a better idea of what setting to use. Try accurateshooter.com. Good luck.


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## Bigj (Jul 22, 2007)

deckh said:


> Charles, Re the 80 inch pound torque setting. IMHO that is too much. If you google for torque settings you will get a better idea of what setting to use. Try accurateshooter.com. Good luck.


 I think mine is around 65 or less


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## prarie dog (Feb 28, 2011)

CharlesRab said:


> All right, I am at a loss here. I have a Remington 700p 26"bbl with h&s stock. I have a load worked up with 43g of IMR 4064. One day it will shoot .361 group then the next day it will open up to almost an inch then it will close back up again. Everything is tightened down, nothing loose. I have a buddy whose gun smith told him to tighten his stock screws down more to 80" lbs. The details of load are :
> 175 Berger VLD Hunting
> IMR 4064 43g
> CCI BR2
> ...


 Among accuracy nuts the H&S stocks have a bad reputation. The magical bedding block often has .020 to .030 tip-- front to back, in them. My smith says the best way to make a half inch gun a one inch gun is to use one of those stocks on it. My son has one on his 260AI, when it came in I took the action and checked it, tipped like a big dog, it is skim bedded now and works fine. In my experience, using 4064 on anything other than an 06 is a bad idea, even at that, the stuff burns dirty. H4895, Ramshot Tac, Varget are just a few of the more common powders used with that round. Haven't tried 8208 but I bet it'd be good too.


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## CharlesRab (May 24, 2012)

I doubt scope and rings are the issue. Have a vortex viper pst 6x24 matted with warne maxima rings to a weaver base. I have been told that the h&s stock is the issue several times now so I think I am going to do like mentioned and have it re bedded or change stocks completely. Thanks for the advice and greatly appreciated. I use 4064 due to I use it in several other guns also and instead of having 20 different powders I only have a few. I am getting great velocities with it and if I can figure out why my poi is changing I can probably get it tighter.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

CharlesRab said:


> All right, I am at a loss here. I have a Remington 700p 26"bbl with h&s stock. I have a load worked up with 43g of IMR 4064. One day it will shoot .361 group then the next day it will open up to almost an inch then it will close back up again. Everything is tightened down, nothing loose. I have a buddy whose gun smith told him to tighten his stock screws down more to 80" lbs. The details of load are :
> 175 Berger VLD Hunting
> IMR 4064 43g
> CCI BR2
> ...


bed the lug area of a hs stock-I have them on all of my rifles-never a issue. general rule of thumb is to tighten front screw tight and back screw firm, but not near a tight as front(as for specs-never used them). the rear screw should never be as tight or tighter than front-I would try different powder to see how velo and pressures are. also not a fan of cci primers


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

I'm a fan of Varget and 8208XBR. I'm shooting 165 Game Kings in one gun and 168 match Kings in my Rem 700 SPS Tacti-cool. Using Federal 210 primers. 

43.4 grains of Varget in Nosler Custom brass get's me sub MOA in both guns. I'm about to test some 168 A-Max bullets, but it's hard to beat Sierras IMHO.


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## CharlesRab (May 24, 2012)

CCI's haven't let me down yet. I'm eventually going to move to some Varget and my pp2000mr I have but not a big fan of moving around until I get one thing accomplished. I've been sticking with the 4064 due to the consistency with velocities and almost getting her dialed in. I'm going to try a couple things with a couple more loads and if she doesn't straighten up then try another powder and see if that fixes it before rebedding. Another thing I fixed and haven't shot since was my trigger was at 4-1/2 lbs now it's adjusted down to 1-1/2lbs. Heck it might have been me this whole time.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

CharlesRab said:


> CCI's haven't let me down yet. I'm eventually going to move to some Varget and my pp2000mr I have but not a big fan of moving around until I get one thing accomplished. I've been sticking with the 4064 due to the consistency with velocities and almost getting her dialed in. I'm going to try a couple things with a couple more loads and if she doesn't straighten up then try another powder and see if that fixes it before rebedding. Another thing I fixed and haven't shot since was my trigger was at 4-1/2 lbs now it's adjusted down to 1-1/2lbs. Heck it might have been me this whole time.


 fyi- I changed my 280ai after 16yrs using same powder-now, instead of a group that touches, it has shrunk to a ragged hole(not talking about my ex wife)-2.5lb trigger helps and a simply putting 1/2 teaspoon of bedding compound in lug area wont exactly hurt. and now that hunting season is almost over-ya got all year to worry about it:smile:


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## CharlesRab (May 24, 2012)

I might as well go ahead and have my gunsmith skim bed it I guess. Shouldn't be that large of a task nor that much to complete. Not to mention once all that is done there would be no other reason other than my gun just not liking the load. All in all though for a stock rem. it shoots dang well. I had spoke with my gunsmith a couple weeks ago when I had him thread my barrel and install an assasin brake for me about truing up my action for me. He told me it wasn't worth the time unless I re-barreled it. Said he would do it if i really wanted to but didn't recommend it. I appreciate all the good info on here and now it is just time to narrow it down. I am going to run a couple rounds and see if trigger and tightening down the stock a couple different ways like recommended and see if any of this helps. See how busy my gunsmith is and see how quick he can turnaround the skim bed for me and go from there. If all else fails time for a custom build on another 308. Thanks guys. Ill post some more info once I get a chance to run some more rounds down the tube.


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## Thegotoguy (Jun 14, 2013)

What's the twist rate in your barrel? Maybe the twist isn't fast enough to stabilize the 175? I'd try that before loosening any screws, buying new gear, or messing with your stockâ€¦my 700 VSSF shoots 168's on top of one anotherâ€¦shoots 175's and up for ****.

Just my couple of penniesâ€¦.I bought a lot of bullets before understanding twist ratesâ€¦lol


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

If you have it properly pillar bedded the screw torque makes no difference.


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## CHunter (May 25, 2004)

I'm going to go off on a tangent......


You are taking a few fouling shots before you try to group right?

From a cold, clean barrel, take a few fouling shots, then try shooting groups of 3 giving the barrel a some time to cool between shots.

I go by feel as far as barrel temp but I like warm but not hot. This takes some practice to do by feel but it's not complicated either


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## artys_only (Mar 29, 2005)

*My 308 load*

175 Berger VLD 
Lapua brass 
42.7 varget 
CCI larger rifle primer 
2.339 base to olive 
2585 Fps

Running it out of 20" 1 in 12 sps , I have a timney trigger down to 2.75 lbs . It in a HS precision stock not bedded , hold well under Moa , .5 at 100 out father groups do open up but are under MOA out to 600 yards .

My action screws are torqued to 62.5 lbs

My run out on loads had caused me problems once I figured it out it tightened my group out past 200 yards


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## sea ray (Mar 15, 2006)

Have you tried factory loads just to see what happens? Good luck!


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## 223AI (May 7, 2012)

1) Clean your barrel, but don't go nuts. You should be cleaning for Carbon moreso than Copper fouling. I clean after about 500 rounds, or when accuracy drops, and then I only run foaming bore cleaner through it with patches. Once in a blue moon I'll run a brush with solvent.

2) Shoot factory match ammo first, as a baseline, multiple 5 shot groups.

3) If the factory match ammo shoots, then you know it's not a bedding problem or equipment issue, and the issue lies within your loading. If it doesn't shoot, bring the rifle to a gunsmith (www.rprifles.com) and have them bed the stock properly, and recrown the barrel. Give it another go with factory ammo and see what happens, or have them do it for you.

4) With your own loading, make sure you are only bumping your shoulders back .001-.003" when you are FL sizing...and we are assuming that you are using once fired brass from your chamber, and not some brass that has been fired out of a M240 and then resized to god knows what.

5) Ditch the VLD's in favor of something else (like bthp's) unless you have a custom chamber, because those VLD's love to be kissing the lands, or jumped quite a ways...but they have their limits. I hate VLD's, especially with factory throats, because I hate chasing lands and keeping my load in tune all while still trying to mag feed. I've dropped plenty of animals with 155 scenars at wharp speed via 8208xbr, and plenty with 178 amaxes. Shot placement trumps bullets, and I only want what's accurate.

6) Primers and powder throw consistency are important, but aren't going to open up your rifle much, so play with those last. 4064 is an excellent powder for 308, and m118LR is loaded with it as well, so rest easy with that one.

That's it, if your rifle won't shoot after all of the above, then you need to rebarrel and start over. Might as well throw a McMillan handle on it while you're at it ;-)


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## Bass-Tracker (Dec 23, 2013)

Factory Remington 30 cal. barrels are 1-12 twist which is not good for 175gr. or heavier bullets.

Only a full receiver bedding is the right way to bed a rifle, not the front lug, rear lug mojo some so called gunsmiths try to pawn off.

4064 is good but, cylindrical powder is not as consistent as ball powder.
4895 is far better a choice.
CCI primers are very good. I use CCI #34 military primers because they are magnum primers & burn more of the powder & burn cleaner than std primers.

Nobody said anything about checking the forend of the stock to make sure the barrel is not touching.
The barrel should be free floating.
That can screw things up. Run a thin paper between the barrel & stock & see if it hangs up.

If you torque the screws the specs are 65 front & 60 rear, anything more will screw up an aluminum trigger guard. 

I only use Hoppes #9 solvent. Cleaning the barrel after each shooting don't hurt the barrel.
Use only a phosphur bronze bore brush. The Tynex brush will cut grooves in the barrel.

I didn't stay at the Holiday Inn last night but, I DO build match grade long range rifles for a living.



.


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## chief1008 (Sep 20, 2011)

*38*

223AI and Bass-Tracker are giving you excellent advice and info. If you're having trouble getting a bench mark round like 308 to group you likely have a component or hardware problem. I had trouble getting the VLD's to group consistently in a 700 LTR that would one hole 168 bt's. I followed Berger's recommendation to try different lengths overall and did find a seating depth that was more of a jump than I expected, but was still too long to mag load. Thats not a problem for punching paper, but otherwise troublesome for hunting. My solution was to stop using VLD's and stick to confidence inspiring 155 to 168 bullet weights (that I load with IMR4895 or BLC-2). If you just got to have the cool looking long VLD loads then you might try Bergers test with different seating lengths, and take it easy with the torque wrench or you'll need that gunsmith and replacement parts. You can't correct for bedding problems by overtightening your rig. You can check contact points on the HS Precision stock with aluminum bed plate by applying transfer marker to the bed plate, torque the action in, then remove and examine the marks on the bottom of the action. If they are unsat then skim bed. All things you can do yourself for very little expense and effort.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

I'd try other semi proven loads before I messed with anything. It may be a simple as the gun does not like the bullet, powder, primer combo. Maybe a bit more or a bit less powder. Maybe the length. Who knows at this point? Far too little info to make any determination. 

A properly set up (everything tight, trigger adjusted) stock Rem. PSS should shoot .5 MOA at 200 yards with a decent load. 

I jump the ever loving chit out of those VLD's. Often, you can get some great accuracy out of some VLD's with a long jump. 

Ain't nothing wrong with 4064 or CCI primers. Both are easily capable of sub 1 inch groups.


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## CharlesRab (May 24, 2012)

I am going to jump powders first before doing anything crazy. Then go from there. I have loads worked also on the vlds I think at 2.3~ ogive and grouping is tightening up but headed downwards in the velocity. Moving to Varget first them pp2000 and if it won't get consistent then go from there. Now to make some time to start narrowing it down.


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## Bass-Tracker (Dec 23, 2013)

As proof of my statement regarding Remington factory barrels you should watch this video from Dan Lilja at Lilja barrels.
Very eye opening.





.


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## Bigj (Jul 22, 2007)

Bass-Tracker said:


> As proof of my statement regarding Remington factory barrels you should watch this video from Dan Lilja at Lilja barrels.
> Very eye opening.
> 
> 
> ...


 1 in a millon still using Factory barrel on my 700 still doing sum MOA groups


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## CharlesRab (May 24, 2012)

I am going to build another 308 eventually. Well actually contemplating on going larger to 338. 
But that's all on hold right now during researching stage. But keeping this one factory until barrel is fried. Just trying to get it as best as possible. Maybe this is as good as she gets. Don't know yet. Once I get some different data off different loads like mentioned in earlier posts. I know that there are better barrels. I want to get a look inside mine one day and see what it looks like.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

*308*

I think your rifle is "close" now-just needs some tweaking. if you are under a 1/2" now- I think a few adjustments in the reloading area will do you wonders and may save you a grand on a new barrel job


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## CharlesRab (May 24, 2012)

Well it groups .361 one day then an inch the next, same load etc. I spoke with a guy on another forum and he was telling me to make sure that my cheak placement was the same each time that way I have the same line of sight each time. Never really put that into thought. I've got a lot of learning to do still, and several things to try before any massive work. I probably won't build this rifle. As good as it shoots with factory ammo it will stay as is and will build another. I just picked up a rem700 bdl 7 mag that I am going to do something with.


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