# Amazing



## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

that some people can come on here and bash others religious views, and say they belong to cults. Sad to say that not only are these people wrong, and spout untruths because they repeat things they hear from others and find on the internet. They do not go straight to the source.

I am very aware that my beliefs as one of Jehovah's witnesses do not line up with some beliefs found in mainstream religion. It does not bother me that people question my beliefs, but it is quite discerning when the great Almighty God Jehovah's name is dragged through the mud. I have always quoted or cited scripture that show my beliefs align with God's word. It is obvious that some never look at the scriptures, because they are so full of themselves, they are beyond learning something. To them I say remember that Jehovah knows all things. I will quote some scriptures below that I hope will be read before judgement is served, which in reality is not the responsibility of man, but of God.

1John 3:19,20 19â€¯By this we shall know that we originate with the truth, and we shall assure our hearts before him 20â€¯as regards whatever our hearts may condemn us in, because God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.

God can read heart conditions, and I pray to Him to examine mine to see if my motives are pure.

2Timothy 2:19 19â€¯For all that, the solid foundation of God stays standing, having this seal: â€œJehovah knows those who belong to him,â€ and: â€œLet everyone naming the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.â€

I have God's foundation in my heart and I have given myself to Him.

1Corinthians 3:20-22 20â€¯And again: â€œJehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.â€ 21â€¯Hence let no one be boasting in men; for all things belong to YOU, 22â€¯whether Paul or AÂ·polâ€²los or Ceâ€²phas or the world or life or death or things now here or things to come, all things belong to YOU; 23â€¯in turn YOU belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.

What an interesting scripture. The reasonings of wise men are futile. There are certainly some on here that think they are wiser than God. Also look closely at vs 23, similar to the headship principal, speaking of the disciples that they belong (are in subjection to) to Christ, but Christ belongs (is in subjection to) to God. Clearly indicating, to me anyway, that Christ is not equal to God, and cannot be part of a Trinity.

Luke 10:21,22 : â€œI publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones, and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you. 22â€¯All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.â€

Again, very revealing scriptures. Jesus acknowledges that all things have been delivered to him through his Father, not done of his own accord. Also, those that think they are smart are really blind.

I feel it is a privilege to be carry Jehovah's name, and can only hope that I can fully accomplish my ministry. It is a true blessing to be taught by Him.

My allegiance is only to God and His son Christ Jesus. Jesus is head of the Christian congregation. I will continue to do my best to walk in his footsteps, as he was sent as a model to pattern our lives after.

I will end this with one final passage of scripture. Matthew 10:24-31 24â€¯â€œA disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his lord. 25â€¯It is enough for the disciple to become as his teacher, and the slave as his lord. If people have called the householder BeÂ·elâ€²zeÂ·bub, how much more [will they call] those of his household so? 26â€¯Therefore do not fear them; for there is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered, and secret that will not become known. 27â€¯What I tell YOU in the darkness, say in the light; and what YOU hear whispered, preach from the housetops. 28â€¯And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in GeÂ·henâ€²na. 29â€¯Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without YOUR Fatherâ€™s [knowledge]. 30â€¯But the very hairs of YOUR head are all numbered. 31â€¯Therefore have no fear: YOU are worth more than many sparrows.

My fear is not of man, with their lies and persecution, but only of displeasing the one and only Almighty God, Jehovah.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

Almost everybody who acknowledges Jesus Christ in some way will agree that those who completely and explicitly reject Jesus Christ are lost. Many people find it difficult, however, to believe that some might sincerely think themselves to be following Jesus Christ and yet, due to heretical belief, be lost. Jesus Himself promised, "Seek, and you shall find" (Matt. 7:7 ); should not those who seek for Christ find Him? And do not many sincere members of groups which evangelicals label heretical truly want to find Christ? They may read the Bible more studiously than many an evangelical church member; they may express an ardent desire to know God and obey Him; they may zealously proclaim the message of Christ as they have been taught it. Are they not, therefore, seeking Christ, and will they not, then, in accordance with His promise, find Christ? And if so, how can salvation depend on doctrinal beliefs? 

These questions may be answered by keeping the following biblical principles in mind.


1. *Not everyone who acknowledges Jesus as Lord will be saved*. This follows directly from Jesus' own words in Matthew 7:21: Simply acknowledging that Jesus is Lord does not guarantee a person's salvation. The acknowledgment might be mere lip service, as demonstrated by refusal to obey Him as Lord (Luke 6:46). Or someone might call Jesus "Lord" and not mean the same thing as what the Bible means by it. This leads me to a second principle. 

2. *Many who claim to acknowledge Jesus actually believe in "another Jesus," and are either deceived or deceiving*. This follows directly from 2 Corinthians 11:4. Many who speak of faith in "Jesus" have an understanding of who and what Jesus is that differs so much from reality that in truth they do not have faith in the real Jesus at all. If a person thought Buddha was another name for Moses, we would not normally consider him a Buddhist, no matter how piously and moralistically he lived out his belief in "Buddha. " Similarly, someone who denies the biblical view of Christ should not be identified as a Christian, no matter how religiously he follows his belief. 

Some people who believe in "another Jesus" are no doubt insincere, and Paul warns of "deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ" (2 Cor. 11:13). I like to think the best of people, even people with whom I have serious disagreements. But I have become acquainted with a few persons about whom I have had to conclude, reluctantly, that they are simply liars. These people know on a conscious level that the message they proclaim is false. 

On the other hand, some people, even members of Christian churches, can be "led astray" (2 Cor. 11:3b) by such deceivers. Thus, it is possible for sincere people, even people who were part of the fellowship of true Christians, to be deceived into following "another Jesus." Not that such people are perfectly innocent â€" rather, they are like Eve who, though deceived by the serpent (2 Cor. 11:3a), was guilty of sin and held accountable by God (Gen. 3:1-6, 13-16). 

3. *Those who are zealous in religious matters are not necessarily saved*. In Romans 10:2 Paul says of his Jewish brethren who rejected Jesus, "They have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge." Zeal, of course, implies sincerity â€" that is, the mental state of believing that what one is promoting is based on truth. The Jews who rejected Jesus were for the most part zealous, and therefore sincere in this sense â€" but they were still lost (Rom. 9:1-3; 10:1). Their zeal was, in particular, for a right standing with God â€" but they sought it on the basis of their own works, as if salvation was by works, rather than receiving the righteousness which was available in Christ through faith (Rom. 9:30-10:4). 

Matthew 23:15 addresses zeal of another kind â€" zeal in seeking converts. The Pharisees were extremely zealous in missionary work, but all they succeeded in doing was leading more people into their error. Zeal in witnessing or evangelizing does not indicate that a religious group is God's people. 

4. *No human being truly seeks for God unless God's Spirit draws that person; therefore, those that appear to seek for God but do not come in God's way are not seeking for God at all*. In Romans 3:11 Paul quotes Psalm 14:2 to the effect that "there is none who seeks for God." Sin has so perverted the desires of all human beings that none of us, by our own natural wishes, is looking for God. This is because "the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God" (Rom. 8:7). Of course, some people do seek for God, otherwise God would not call upon us to seek Him (Isa. 55:6, etc.). But when people seek God, it is only because God has first "sought" them and drawn them toward Him by His grace (Luke 19:10; John 6:44; 15:16). 

When people therefore appear to be "seeking God" â€" when they study the Bible (2 Pet. 3:16), attend meetings, pray, change their lifestyles, attempt to obey the commandments, even speak of their love for God and Christ â€" yet persist in worshipping a false God, or honoring a false Christ, or following a false gospel (Gal. 1:7-9; 2 Cor. 11:4), we must conclude that they were not really seeking God. Rather, they may have been seeking spiritual power, or security, or peace of mind, or warm relationships, or knowledge, or excitement, or anything other than simply God. And in saying this, I am not claiming that all genuine Christians on the other hand have sought purely and simply after God. No, our testimony as Christians must be that we were also following our own divergent path when God sought us, stopped us in our way, and led us up a new and narrow path leading to salvation in Jesus Christ (Matt. 7:13). 

5. *Anyone who truly desires to know the truth about God and His way of salvation above all else can and will be saved*. This is the other side of the coin from the previous point. Jesus promised that "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37). However, we must come to the true Jesus on His terms. Judas came to the true Jesus, at least outwardly (actually, Judas did not know who Jesus really was), but he did not come on Jesus' terms and was consequently lost (John 17:12). The cost of abandoning heresy is usually great â€" the loss of friends, the embarrassment of admitting error, the threat of the heretical teachers that all who leave their teaching will be lost. But salvation is available for anyone who by God's grace puts truth (and the One who is truth) above these things.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

I agree with most of what you say above.

Matthew 23:15 addresses zeal of another kind â€” zeal in seeking converts. The Pharisees were extremely zealous in missionary work, but all they succeeded in doing was leading more people into their error. Zeal in witnessing or evangelizing does not indicate that a religious group is God's people. 

Our zeal come from the fact that Jesus himself was zealous for the ministry. That was one of the reasons he came to the earth was to make his father's name known and to aid in the sanctification of His name. Jehovah's name has had much reproach heaped upon it the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden. In his model pray, the first thing he taught us to pray for was the sanctification of that name, "hallowed (sanctified) be Thy name. 

Jesus was zealous in his ministry and taught his disciples to be zealous also. We do our best to follow that example. Matthew 28:19,20 19â€¯Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20â€¯teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.â€

We look to Jesus as the spearhead of that work. Why? The final sentence of vs 20 talks about the conclusion of the system of things. History and prophecy tells us that that conclusion is very close at hand. 

Jesus was zealous because he had a love for the people. It is love that motivates us. I know you are very familiar with the scripture found at John 3:16 16â€¯â€œFor God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

The preaching work has been speeded up because the end of this system is drawing near. Jesus wants everyone to be in line for everlasting life, and so do we. We do not want to see any destroyed, although the vast majority will be. Look at the example of Noah's day, Sodom and Gomorrah. They took no note of the message and they perished. 

You noted the Pharisees. Look at what motivated them, power and greed. Believe me, there is not one Jehovah's witness that benefits monetarily for any of the hours they spend in the ministry. The benefit we get is the satisfaction of knowing we are doing the commission that was given through Jesus Christ. We are working to make disciples of Christ and working toward the sanctification of Jehovah's name. No other reason. There are no witnesses getting rich off of God's word. Quite the contrary. Most lead a very modest lifestyle, man less than modest. Jehovah looks at the heart and peoples motives very closely. I promise you, there are many other things that I could be doing other than going out in the ministry. But when you dedicate yourself, that becomes your priority in life, pleasing Jehovah. No longer living for yourself, but living for Him. Following in Jesus footsteps as closely as we can, as imperfect people.

The Pharisees were not a cult, they were very motivated by the wrong things, and they certainly did not have the interest of the people in mind. 

I have extended an invitation to you on more than one occasion to find out for yourself how we conduct ourselves. Even offering to give you a way to listen to a meeting on the phone from the comfort of your own home. You do not wish to do so. You want to continue to lie and accuse, just as the Pharisees did about Jesus. We will all stand accountable. I am very comfortable where I am.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

Nothing against you personally Shaggy. I have relatives who used to be JW's and many friends who used to be and some that still are. I have also been approached by many JW's at home & at Home Depot. So I am aware of much of their beliefs/doctrine. God has given us discernment to be able to spot deception when it appears. That is what I see in the JW's movement, therefore I have no desire to listen to their sermons live or on the phone. Thanks for the offer though. And by you repeating that "what I post is nothing but lies" is not going to make them lies.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> Nothing against you personally Shaggy. I have relatives who used to be JW's and many friends who used to be and some that still are. I have also been approached by many JW's at home & at Home Depot. So I am aware of much of their beliefs/doctrine. God has given us discernment to be able to spot deception when it appears. That is what I see in the JW's movement, therefore I have no desire to listen to their sermons live or on the phone. Thanks for the offer though. And by you repeating that "what I post is nothing but lies" is not going to make them lies.


Unfortunately they are. I have show where they are in other threads.

I would love to have the names of some of your friends that are witnesses and what congregation they belong to. I may know them or know someone who does.


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## edmister (Jun 20, 2009)

According to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, a person who dies simply ceases to exist. He lays unconscious in the grave until a future resurrection. The Watchtower teaches that a person does not possess an immaterial soul and/or spirit that survives the death of the body. Using Ecclesiastes 9:5 as their ultimate proof text, â€œ....but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all....â€, they fail to understand two things.

1.) Solomon, throughout Ecclesiastes, is contrasting two points of view regarding manâ€˜s dilemma in this world. One comes from a secular, limited, humanistic view while the other comes from a godly, spiritual outlook. For example, to accept Ecclesiastes 9:5 as a literal face-value proof text, in order to be consistent, one must also conclude that all our days on earth are meaningless (9:9) and that "money is the answer for everything" (10:19 NIV). Obviously, both of these verses, accepted as literal, oppose the overall teaching of God's Word.

2.) The further revelation of the New Testament scriptures clarifies verses in the Old Testament.

Therefore, as we will see after studying the New Testament, it becomes evident that Ecclesiastes 9:5 and its surrounding context is written from the viewpoint of limited human wisdom, not Godâ€˜s.

In the brochure, What Does God Require of Us?, p. 23, the Watchtower states: â€œThe soul dies; it does not live on after deathâ€. In order to teach this, the Watchtower had to redefine the biblical definitions of the words â€œsoulâ€ and â€œspiritâ€. So, according to them, the word soul really means man, or person. In other words, your soul and body are the same thing, they are not separate entities. Also, they teach that the spirit of a man is his â€œlife-forceâ€, or breath, that keeps him alive. Consider the following:

The â€œspiritâ€ that departs from humans at death is the life force that originated with our Creator....This life force does not have any of the characteristics of the creature it animates, just as electricity does not take on the features of the equipment it powers. When someone dies, the spirit (life force) ceases to animate the body cells, much as a light goes out when the electricity is turned off. When the life force stops sustaining the human body, man-the soul-dies. Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life, 1995, pp. 81-82.

While it is true that the bible does use the word soul to mean person or life, this is not the only way in which it is used. Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses are very quick to read verses that support their interpretation of â€œsoulâ€, but carefully avoid verses that are in conflict. The following verses, taken from the New World Translation are some that the Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses side-step when answering the question, what is the condition of the dead?

1.) Matt 10:28 â€œAnd do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehennaâ€ - Jesus makes it crystal clear that it is possible for the physical body to be killed while the soul continues to live on. Therefore, the soul must not be another name for our body, but an immaterial part of man that survives after death.

2.) Rev 6:9 â€œAnd when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to haveâ€ - This one is real apparent. The souls of those whose bodies have already died are in heaven. Itâ€™s obvious that these people are very much alive. Not only are they in heaven, but they speak. The next verse says that â€œthey cried with a loud voice, saying: â€˜Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?â€

Itâ€™s interesting to read the Watchtowerâ€™s subtle twist of verse 9. In its commentary on Revelation, the Watchtower identifies the people whom John was referring to: â€œThey are anointed ones who in their day were martyred for their zealous ministry in upholding Jehovahâ€™s Word and sovereignty. Their â€œsouls [were] slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work [mar ty riâ€™ an] that they used to haveâ€. Revelation Its Grand Climax At Hand, 1988, p.100

Notice, the title of this chapter, in the above publication, is â€˜Slaughtered Soulsâ€™ Rewarded. Notice the twist, however. John is not saying that these are people whose souls were slaughtered on the earth prior to coming to heaven, like the Watchtower is saying, but that they are people whose souls are existing in heaven apart from their slain bodies.

3.) John 11:25-26 â€œJesus said to her: "I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all.â€ - Jesus said that those who live and exercise faith in Him will never die at all. (see also John 8:51) Since thousands upon thousands of believing Christians have physically died, they must somehow still be alive. Therefore, there must be a part of man that lives on after death.

4.) Phil 1:21-23 â€œFor in my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain.â€ - How could death be gain over life for Paul if he was destined to go into a state of unconscious existence? The reason why death was an advantage over life is given in verse 23: â€œI am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.â€ No unconsciousness here. Paul says that when his physical body dies, he will be transported into the presence of Jesus Christ. See also 2 Co. 5:8

5.) 1 Kings 17:21-22 â€œAnd he proceeded to stretch himself upon the child three times and call to Jehovah and say: â€˜O Jehovah my God, please, cause the soul of this child to come back within him.â€™ Finally Jehovah listened to Elijahâ€™s voice, so that the soul of the child came back within him and he came to life.â€ Hereâ€™s one from the Old Testament. I think anyone can see, from this verse, that the soul is distinct and separate from the body. See also Psalm 42:5-6; 43:5

6.) Acts 7:59 â€œAnd they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: â€˜Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.â€ -Since the Watchtower teaches that a manâ€™s spirit is only his â€œlife forceâ€ or â€œbreathâ€, why would Stephen ask Jesus to receive something that is about to cease existing? It would make sense, however, if Stephen were asking Jesus to receive an immaterial part of him that would keep on living after his death.

7.) Luke 23:46 â€œAnd Jesus called with a loud voice and said: â€˜Father, into your hands I entrust my spiritâ€ - Again, why would Jesus entrust his spirit to His Father if it was something immaterial that was about to be extinguished?

8.) Luke 23:42-43 ....â€Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.â€ And he said to him: â€œTruly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.â€ - Letâ€™s see what happens when we move that comma up one word. â€œ....Truly I tell you, today You will be with me in Paradiseâ€. Wow! What a difference a little comma can make. In the former, Jesus is telling the thief that at some indefinite time in the future he will be with Him in Paradise. In the latter, the thief will be in Paradise with Jesus in a matter of hours, clearly indicating conscious existence after death. Which is the correct location for the comma?

This introductory phrase, Truly I tell you, occurs over 70 times in the Gospels. In other sections where this phrase appears, the New World Translation always places the comma after the word you. This is the only instance where the Watchtower places the comma in a different location. (The only exception to this is where placing the comma after the word â€œyouâ€ would make no grammatical sense. For example: John 1:51.) This is a clear example of the Watchtower tampering with the text to make it fit into its theological bias.

After reviewing the above verses, we believe that anyone approaching the Bible honestly and without a learned preconception, would come to the conclusion that man does have an immaterial nature that survives death. Certainly, you are free to believe whatever you want regarding this important doctrine. Our purpose in presenting these verses to you is that now, after seeing the Christian argument, you may be able to make a more informed decision about your belief on this topic.

Finally, â€œMay the very God of peace sanctify YOU completely. And sound in every respect may the spirit and soul and body of YOU [brothers] be preserved in a blameless manner at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.â€ 1 Thessalonians 5:23


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## surfdad_96712 (Aug 29, 2006)

First we must determine which Jesus we are discussing , the jesus of the Witnesses
JWâ€™s believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is â€œa god,â€ but not â€œthe God.â€ They teach that Jesus â€œwas and is and always will be beneath Jehovahâ€ and that â€œChrist and God are not coequalâ€.

Or the Jesus the scriptures portray 

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

There are groups preaching another jesus and another gospel but they should pay heed to the scriptures
No Other Gospel
â€¦7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!


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## surfdad_96712 (Aug 29, 2006)

Shaggy,
I invoke Pauls prayer for you
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding[a] being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church
In the name of Jesus ,the Christ


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

surfdad_96712 said:


> First we must determine which Jesus we are discussing , the jesus of the Witnesses
> JWâ€™s believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is â€œa god,â€ but not â€œthe God.â€ They teach that Jesus â€œwas and is and always will be beneath Jehovahâ€ and that â€œChrist and God are not coequalâ€.
> 
> Or the Jesus the scriptures portray
> ...


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## surfdad_96712 (Aug 29, 2006)

Another jesus ,another gospel
Even the Pharisees knew he was claiming to be God
John 10:30-34 is a section of verses where the Pharisees say that Jesus is making Himself out to be God (v. 33).
"I and the Father are one. Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?' 'We are not stoning you for any of these,' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.'"

Jesus was God come in the flesh ,no matter how much you deny his deity (spirit of the anti-christ) you are simple regurgitating old heresy of the Gnostics which proclaimed your premise long ago


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

surfdad_96712 said:


> Another jesus ,another gospel
> Even the Pharisees knew he was claiming to be God
> John 10:30-34 is a section of verses where the Pharisees say that Jesus is making Himself out to be God (v. 33).
> "I and the Father are one. Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?' 'We are not stoning you for any of these,' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.'"
> ...


They falsely accused him of being God. Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus was given the power to perform miracles by his father. Again, I will no longer argue the point. I have quoted scriptures above that show that Jesus was not God. He himself said so. He said himself that God was greater than he was. Don't get much clearer than that, at least not to me.

He and his father were one in that he was the perfect reflection of his father in thoughts and qualities. Two people can be of one mind (like minded), but that does not mean that they are the same person.


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## edmister (Jun 20, 2009)

Surfdad,

Shaggy will either avoid that scripture that states that Jesus and God are one or he will provide a "correct translation" of that scripture provided by the Jehovah Witnesses and Watch Tower society. Or, he will try to get you to look at another scripture that helps support their views. They will not take all the scriptures as a whole. They pick and choose scriptures and reword other ones. 

Look at how their sect started and the history. It's sad. But we are all apostates according to shaggy. 

One fact about the JWs is they are more concerned with others pointing out the flaws in their beliefs than truly finding the truth of Gods word.


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## edmister (Jun 20, 2009)

shaggydog said:


> They falsely accused him of being God. Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus was given the power to perform miracles by his father. Again, I will no longer argue the point. I have quoted scriptures above that show that Jesus was not God. He himself said so. He said himself that God was greater than he was. Don't get much clearer than that, at least not to me.
> 
> He and his father were one in that he was the perfect reflection of his father in thoughts and qualities. Two people can be of one mind (like minded), but that does not mean that they are the same person.


Twisting and adding to the scriptures again!!! You are willing to take at face value the scripture that Jesus says that the father is greater than he is, but you have to add a twist of interpretation to this scripture where Jesus says He and God are one. Very sad!!!


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> Nothing against you personally Shaggy. I have relatives who used to be JW's and many friends who used to be and some that still are. I have also been approached by many JW's at home & at Home Depot. So I am aware of much of their beliefs/doctrine. God has given us discernment to be able to spot deception when it appears. That is what I see in the JW's movement, therefore I have no desire to listen to their sermons live or on the phone. Thanks for the offer though. And by you repeating that "what I post is nothing but lies" is not going to make them lies.


Are you ashamed to give your friends and relatives names? We have gone through these types of discussions many times. This is the first time you have shared this. For some reason I question your honesty.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

shaggydog said:


> Are you ashamed to give your friends and relatives names? We have gone through these types of discussions many times. This is the first time you have shared this. For some reason I question your honesty.


Shirley, you're not serious? 

Wait, you're shaggy, of course you're serious.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Names? I would love to contact them and their congregation. You said you have relatives that were in the truth. Why did they leave? Drift away, disfellowshipped? It is quite easy for me to see if what you are saying is the truth. Full disclosure. I have opened myself up. Are you willing to do the same? The only thing I need are their names and their congregation.


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## edmister (Jun 20, 2009)

I notice shaggy dodges all the facts I post. Typical.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

shaggydog said:


> Names? I would love to contact them and their congregation. You said you have relatives that were in the truth. Why did they leave? Drift away, disfellowshipped? It is quite easy for me to see if what you are saying is the truth. Full disclosure. I have opened myself up. Are you willing to do the same? The only thing I need are their names and their congregation.


I don't know you that well. Why don't you take me fishing first and then we can exchange names? :rotfl:


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## Greg E (Sep 20, 2008)

Fish&Chips said:


> Nothing against you personally Shaggy. I have relatives who used to be JW's and many friends who used to be and some that still are. I have also been approached by many JW's at home & at Home Depot. So I am aware of much of their beliefs/doctrine. God has given us discernment to be able to spot deception when it appears. That is what I see in the JW's movement, therefore I have no desire to listen to their sermons live or on the phone. Thanks for the offer though. And by you repeating that "what I post is nothing but lies" is not going to make them lies.


Thou shalt not lie. You don't have that many friends that are JW's. You don't have that many relatives that are either. And lastly, you don't have that many approach you at your house or where ever. Quit telling lies to promote your assbackward religion.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

I forgot to mention that the majority of the JW's that I know have gotten divorced while in that great organization.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> I don't know you that well. Why don't you take me fishing first and then we can exchange names? :rotfl:


That's what I thought. More of the same.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> I don't know you that well. Why don't you take me fishing first and then we can exchange names? :rotfl:


It may be a joke to you, but it certainly is not to me. I knew you would not give names because you do not have friends or relatives that are witnesses, or have been witnesses. Just another lie. I can't believe that people cannot figure you out.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

shaggydog said:


> It may be a joke to you, but it certainly is not to me. I knew you would not give names because you do not have friends or relatives that are witnesses, or have been witnesses. Just another lie. I can't believe that people cannot figure you out.


Now you are calling me a liar (based on your own assumptions)? Your name calling is nothing new shaggy. May God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit bless you bro.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> Now you are calling me a liar (based on your own assumptions)? Your name calling is nothing new shaggy. May God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit bless you bro.


You have done nothing but spread lies about the witnesses. You are not forthcoming with the names of people you say you know. If the shoe fits.............. I will pray for you to understand what it takes to be a true Christian, and to find the true knowledge of God.


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