# I guess this belongs here....



## TeamOso

Hey guys I was just wondering what yall think about capital punishment in relation to being a Christian. Personally I think its OK to kill a mass murderer rapist. But today my religion teacher compared the death penalty of murderers to the death of Jesus Christ our Savior, a sinless man dying for us.
That really got me fired up.
What do yall think?

Just wondering

Kevin


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## activescrape

I never gave it much thought for years but about 10 years ago I asked myself this question. If I had a person in captivity, that could never get out of prison would I be willing to be the one to pull the switch, or start the drugs flowing. Could I kill them myself? The honest answer was no. So, I decided that if I couldn't do it myself, how could I expect anyone else to do it for me? I guess I'm willing to pay the tax.


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## rvj

I am against capital punishment.


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## boom!

I wonder what is trying to be achieved with the death penalty. Deterrant, punishment, or removing evil from the earth. I think it only accomplishes the third.


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## KSims1868

I'm sure the invention of the death penalty (which has been around as long as man) was taken directly from the "eye for an eye" mentality of the Old Testament. 

I support capital punishment, and I am a Christian.


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## PinStripe

KS the wording in the Old Testament is ((eye for an eye tooth for a tooth let vengeance be mine say the Lord)) people use this alot to justify retaliation in the name of god, but what it means is let god handle it


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## TeamOso

Its called fundamentalism, The straight translation of the bible. I am for the death penalty, and my faith has nothin to do with it.


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## wingnut

TeamOso said:


> Its called fundamentalism, The straight translation of the bible. I am for the death penalty, and my faith has nothin to do with it.


I belive that if you murder someone and are found GUILTY, you deserves to pay the ultimate price. And like TeamOso said, my faith has nothing to do with it...


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## word-doctor

_I am for the death penalty, and my faith has nothin to do with it.
_Faith has to do with everything.


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## Mrs Backlasher

God instituted capital punishment. It is not ONE of us killing another person in retalliation. It is ALL of us (through the jury) agreeing to a punishment that fits the crime. Not every person who is guilty gets the death penalty.

In case anyone doesn't know it by now (you must not read on 2Cool regularly), I am a Christian. Jesus is the lover of my soul.

God's ways always are best, even when they are difficult, as in capital punishment. I don't see anything in the New Testament that does away with society as a whole bringing criminals to justice.


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## activescrape

Just for clarification. I am not against the death penalty. It is just that if I had someone in a cage and they could never get out I would give them some slop to live on but I couldn't, personally, stick a knife through their heart or hang them or electrocute them myself. Self defense, war etc. are different stories. For me anyway, it would be worse to live out my days as an animal than to meet my maker and get it over with.


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## TeamOso

I agree with the death penalty still, just not the system that surrounds it. It costs less to let a murderer rot than to put him down. This is because after he is found guilty and sentenced to death, they automatically get an appeal, and can DRAAAAGGG that out. I think with the technology (DNA analysis) that is is today, once you get sentenced it should be carried out within 6 months.

Kevin


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## Mike1010

Someone of sound mind should know that if the death penalty is legal in the state in which they intend to murder someone, they have a very real possibility of facing that sentence. I think the death penalty does prevent some people from killing. Life in prison seems bad to us because we're normal, we like the free world and the perks that come with it. To big time criminals life in prison is no big deal...free rent, free food, and all of their friends are already there. The crime in our world is already out of control because we are to nice to our criminals...it's jail not the Holiday Inn it should be the most horrible experience of anyones life. If we made prison as close to hell on earth as possible maybe nobody would come back.


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## tinman

I believe that under the right (or wrong) circumstances, Me, You, or anyone would be capable of taking another person's life. I do support the death penality, but I think it should be carried out at the time of sentencing instead of 12 years and millions of dollars later.
When I stand before God to be judged, it will be between Him and me. He will know what is in my heart.


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## tinman

*Honest Abe*



TeamOso said:


> I agree with the death penalty still, just not the system that surrounds it. It costs less to let a murderer rot than to put him down. This is because after he is found guilty and sentenced to death, they automatically get an appeal, and can DRAAAAGGG that out. I think with the technology (DNA analysis) that is is today, once you get sentenced it should be carried out within 6 months.
> 
> Kevin


Kevin, I have to chuckle at your quotation of "Honest Abe". The license plates from the state of Illinois used to say "Land of Linclon", and I have heard the expression "Honest Abe from Illnois" all my life. What makes me laugh is that Abe Lincoln started out being a liar..............He was really from Kentucky.


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## DawnPatrol

*Be slow to become angry*

I used to be in favor of capital punishment, but as we see today there is really no deterrent effect.

The OT indeed has the Law "an eye for an eye" (Exodus 21) as punishment-in-kind for what has been taken from another.

But what do we do with the words of Jesus, who seems to be correcting our self-serving understanding of Law without mercy in Matthew 5:

"*You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth*.*'*
*But I tell you*, Do not resist [_this means "set yourself against"_] an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

"*You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy*.'
*But I tell you*: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."

[Are we doing these things, as we carry out the death penalty?]


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## Mrs Backlasher

DawnPatrol said:


> ...
> 
> "*You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth*.*'*
> *But I tell you*, Do not resist [_this means "set yourself against"_] an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."
> 
> "*You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy*.'
> *But I tell you*: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."
> 
> [Are we doing these things, as we carry out the death penalty?]


Jesus was not talking about life and death matters in this passage. Israel had been conquered by Rome and was under Roman rule at this time. A lot of what Jesus was talking about was Roman persecution. The Israelites considered the Romans their enemies. Jesus also was talking about personal behavior not corporate behavior. I don't see that he was advocating doing away with the death penalty.

The death penalty does remove one criminal from our society. I think the reason it doesn't always serve as a deterent is because the penalty is not carried out in a public forum as was done in ages past (gallows, guillotine, etc.) where everyone could SEE the wages of particular sins.

Even in Jesus' time, capital punishment (crucifixion) was carried out on top of a hill where everyone could see.


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## word-doctor

_ Even in Jesus' time, capital punishment (crucifixion) was carried out on top of a hill where everyone could see.

_Sorry Mrs. B, but I'd like to think that we've gotten past using public spectacles of violence to deter violence. My own belief is that as a Christian I am to serve others one way or another. I place more value than do some on this life, but as far as faith is concerned I believe that this life is for us to get right with God before the next one, and nothing has convinced me that I have the right to shorten someone's chance to do so (get right). Doesn't mean they shouldn't be in prison. In solitary. On bread, water and multivitamins. None of those conditions get in the way of someone choosing redemption--the needle, though, does.


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## DawnPatrol

*Unto Death for the glory of God*

That was a thorough answer, Mrs. B including your comment:

"I don't see that _Jesus_ was advocating doing away with the death penalty."

I believe that in fulfilment of Isaiah 52-53 he allowed himself to be handed over and put to death in accordance with the most gruesome expression of sin that was present in the world under Roman rule. Not sure how anyone could embrace this as "giving his approval" to unjust judgment, merciless beating, and slow cruel death -- not under the Romans then, not under a free democratic government today. God is not glorified in capital punishment.

Thanks for your patience with me...
- Mark W.


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## KSims1868

word-doctor said:


> *I place more value than do some on this life...*


Statements like this are part of the reason I have shied away from organized religion in recent years. What gives you the right to think you place more value on this life than other people? That is a very righteous thing to say, and I think it goes to the heart of the problem in Christianity today.

I apologize for attacking you like this, but people often ask me to point to a particular occurance or situation that makes me think the way I do, and here is a prime example. You have no right to judge how much value I (or anyone else) has put on this life, and to think you know the answer to that is ludicrous. I know you weren't addressing me personally...but in a way...you were.


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## Mrs Backlasher

word-doctor said:


> _ Even in Jesus' time, capital punishment (crucifixion) was carried out on top of a hill where everyone could see._
> 
> Sorry Mrs. B, but I'd like to think that we've gotten past using public spectacles of violence to deter violence.


To me it's more of a display to show that "you reap what you sow." (If you sow THIS crime [individual behavior], THIS is what you will reap [corporate behavior].)


word-doctor said:


> ... and nothing has convinced me that *I have the right* to shorten someone's chance to do so (get right). Doesn't mean they shouldn't be in prison. In solitary. On bread, water and multivitamins. None of those conditions get in the way of someone choosing redemption--*the needle, though, does*.


No, you do not have the right. But WE, society as a whole, do have the right. Look at it this way - the murderer has shortened someone else's chances to get right with God. However, capital punishment isn't performed on a "spur of the moment" basis. Thus, society gives the murderer ample time to get right with God. Something they did not provide to their victim(s).


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## Mrs Backlasher

DawnPatrol said:


> That was a thorough answer, Mrs. B including your comment:
> 
> "I don't see that _Jesus_ was advocating doing away with the death penalty."
> 
> I believe that in fulfilment of Isaiah 52-53 he allowed himself to be handed over and put to death in accordance with the most gruesome expression of sin that was present in the world under Roman rule. *Not sure how anyone could embrace this as "giving his approval"* to unjust judgment, merciless beating, and slow cruel death -- not under the Romans then, not under a free democratic government today. *God is not glorified in capital punishment*.
> 
> Thanks for your patience with me...
> - Mark W.


Mark,

I didn't say that Jesus "gave His approval" to the methods used by the Romans. (Be careful not to "put words into my mouth" please.)

Our methods today are more humane, and for that I thank God.

God Himself instituted capital punishment in the Old Testament. I just don't see any place in the New Testament where he told us to abolish it.


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## Mrs Backlasher

KSims1868 said:


> Statements like this are part of the reason I have shied away from organized religion in recent years. What gives you the right to think you place more value on this life than other people? That is a very righteous thing to say, and I think it goes to the heart of the problem in Christianity today.
> 
> I apologize for attacking you like this, but people often ask me to point to a particular occurance or situation that makes me think the way I do, and here is a prime example. You have no right to judge how much value I (or anyone else) has put on this life, and to think you know the answer to that is ludicrous. I know you weren't addressing me personally...but in a way...you were.


Please don't let emotions get involved in the discussion. Word-doctor wasn't singling out anyone or any group of persons. And I don't think he meant it as a "jab." Just stating his concern for this present life, in ADDITION to his concern with life after death.

Chill, brother. It's all good. We're talking about concepts here.


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## word-doctor

_Statements like this are part of the reason I have shied away from organized religion in recent years. What gives you the right to think you place more value on this life than other people? That is a very righteous thing to say, and I think it goes to the heart of the problem in Christianity today._

Sorry--I didn't write that very clearly. What I was meant to say is that I place more value on what happens in this life than some Christians do who are primarily concerned with the afterlife. In other words, I'm kind of lining up with the humanists on this one. There: now I've made _everyone_ mad at me!

Mrs. B, I can't detach my own faith from corporate action when life and death is involved.


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## Turpis Piscator

First of all I agree with capital punishment under the right circumstances. I think things get too complicated and dramaticized by the media.

Ultimately, the punishment should fit the crime, but in some cases, death is too easy a way out. For instance- child molesters. They should be locked away and kept healthy for the rest of what I would hope would be a very long, frustrating life. Capital punishment, in this case, gives them an "early release" so to speak. Bottom line is that for causing the type of life long suffering that they cause, they should be made to suffer for as long as we can make them suffer.

Others, not naming any names, like those who decide to slaughter their own families, should be made to contemplate their crime for the rest of their lives and have it pointed out to them every single day that there ain't any going back. They should understand on their deathbed exactly where their next stop is.


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## KSims1868

I may have been too quick to reply as well. Glad to see I read that wrong. Sorry I got all worked up. I'll play nice and relax!!


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## WAHOO-YAHOO

I think your teacher was way out of line equating the death penalty of any mortal man with the crucifxion of Christ. That's....well she/he is off.

I have always been an advocate of the death penalty when no dooubt exists about the guilt of the person.
The more I read the Bible, the more I consider my ways. I am as of very recently, unsure of where I stand on this issue. When the adultress was brought before Christ, He said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Without writing a thesis on this forum, let me say the example of Christ is my instruction manual. He didn't say to let her go. But He reserves judgement for Himself. Was he saying " I am the only one to impose punnishment? Or was he saying to the Pharisees, you're to currupt to pass judgement, as a way of letting them know he knew of their corruption? I think it is the latter.
All throughout the Old and New Testament, murderers were put to death for their crimes. Jesus didn't pardon them from earthly punnishment (as the Bible says "he who commits murder shall surely die"), but gave them an opportunity for pardon in heaven if they followed Him in life, as their savior.

I still believe that capitol punnishment is a necessary measure in society. I just need to study and pray about it as I have been wrong before.


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## activescrape

Even though I state that if I had someone trapped in a cage and therefore wouldn't be willing to put them to death myself, it occurs to me that that decision may be based in emotion more than it is in scripture. 
Mrs. B makes an excellent point about there not being anywhere in scripture that says, ok, no more capitol punishment.
I am going to have to give this more consideration.
I do believe that all our human actions and deeds must take second place to the authority of the scripture.
It was always just the thought to me of it's like having an animal in a trap, and then killing it while it was defenseless. I've done that plenty of times, and it is not that good of a feeling.


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## DawnPatrol

*Tough dilemma*

Both sides are making great points, and I hope no one has taken offense at my remarks.

I guess as I get older my appreciation for *mercy* is growing, because there just doesn't seem to be enough of that precious gift in our world. I would like to think that even while spending years on death row, God is still working in the hearts of the condemned.

Peace be with you all...


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## Stumpgrinder

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away , I earned a bachelors degree in criminal justice with a specialization in corrections. (prisons, parole +probation) I am not an expert but do have some background from wich to pull. For full disclosure, I am also Catholic (not a real good one but the church has never failed me. I have failed it on many occasions) 

I have made the personal choice to oppose capital punishment. I do it for a variety of reasons. # 1 is the only real effect it has on murder is to provide revenge for society. It has never proven to reduce the rate of people killing other people. Most murders are crimes of passion and the murderer rarely , if ever, thinks through the consequences before committing the act. The idea that capital punishment will prevent murder in the future has been statistically proven to not hold water. I fully realize that there are and always will be a few totally twisted individuals that kill for pleasure or money or any variety of sick and perverted reasons. These people are exceedingly rare and should not be given an undo amount of cosideration in the debate. They will continue their sick behaviour no matter the law of the land.

Prisons are terrible places and the idea that people don't mind being there is in my opinion just plain malarkey. I've been in them and they are a wasteland of human misery. They were the reason I pursued other employment upon graduation. In a prison for life is truly a fate worse than death in my opinion.

#2- The new testament is (this is my interpretation and I won't lock horns with biblical scholars) very clear on how we should take retribution. Effectively , it says we shouldnt. The old testament gives a list of 10 commandments, not the least of wich is "though shalt not kill" It does not say "though shalt not kill unless you have a real good reason" To me, the teachings are crystal clear.

There it is folks - fire away. I will not change my stance.


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## bill

Tough question. I think it depends on Old v New Testament.
Old goes into details like Noah, Sodom & Gomorrah working through Mosses and taking the lives of the first born egyptians, later destroying the egytpian armies in the red sea. Exodus 21 says Capital punishment for murders and into the occult. I don't remember everything and can not quote but I do remember. In the new testament, I see more of a love and forgive.


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## Badhabit

Mrs B, 

I have to say that you are my hero when it comes to public debates on beliefs.... I luv ya Betty....


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## SoClose

Murders and Rapist should have an express lane! Just my 2 sence for what its worth...


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## huntinguy

*grins

There's a reason I don't browse this forum a whole lot, and it's because I haven't yet perfected keepin my mouth shut!

That said, I'd just like to point out that contrasting the old and new testaments as a change in God's views isn't good theology as HE is unchanging, yesterday today and forever.

The concept of reaping what you sow is biblical. The concept of personal accountability for our actions is too.

Good discussion here! Carry on.........


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## Mrs Backlasher

huntinguy said:


> ... Good discussion here! Carry on.........


 And I thought we were done! LOL


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## huntinguy

*chuckles 

Probably so Mrs. B, but I didn't want to appear narrowminded or dogmatic ;p


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## word-doctor

_That said, I'd just like to point out that contrasting the old and new testaments as a change in God's views isn't good theology as HE is unchanging, yesterday today and forever._

Blind Willie Johnson sang "God Don't Never Change". But our view of God does change. I just finished "reading" (actually, listening to MP3 files) Karen Armstrong's "The Axial Age". Starts with the birth of monotheism and moves through the institutionalization of Christianity (18 hours! play time). My thoughts are that in a lot of ways, the god of the Zorastrians has much more in common with the conception of God in Jesus' time than our (post-Enlightenment) concept does. Mrs. B's posts on this thread about the influence of Jewish independence movements (who knew we'd find a document theory expert here at 2cool? :bounce point out that each age projects its own milieux ("Weltanschauung") onto "who" it worships. A Unitarian worships the same God that a Southern Baptist does, but their respective pictures of God are bound to differ.

It's almost 9, my heart is full: time to get the kids cleaned up and in bed. Blessings be unto y'all!


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## activescrape

God's principles never change, truth is truth. 
But think about this. If we all got what we deserved(reaped what we have sown)heaven would be a lonely place. 
That is where Jesus comes in and the gospel, the good news, grace....


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## Mrs Backlasher

activescrape said:


> God's principles never change, truth is truth.
> But think about this. If we all got what we deserved(reaped what we have sown)heaven would be a lonely place.
> That is where Jesus comes in and the gospel, the good news, grace....


AMEN!

The Bible is the unfolding, progressive revelation of God to man. We can only know about God what He reveals to us. We cannot search him out. The fullest expression of Himself to us was Jesus Christ - God with us. His mercy in dying to pay the price for our sins boggles the mind.

When one of my grandsons, Ethan, was about 3 or 4 years old, one evening he and I were on our way to church. There was a full moon in the sky and I commented to Ethan about the beautiful moon. In a few minutes a cloud was passing by and covered up our view of the moon. I said, "Ethan, there's a cloud in front of the moon and we can't see the moon anymore, but we know it's still there. It's like that with God. Even though we can't see him, we know that he's there." And Ethan said, "Yes. And when he came to earth, his name was Jesus."

I thought, "My God! So simple that a child can understand, and yet grown people stumble and miss it!"


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## SurfRunner

Mrs Backlasher said:


> I thought, "My God! So simple that a child can understand, and yet grown people stumble and miss it!"


I have experienced that kind of stuff with my seven year old son. He'll say something sometimes, most of the time after quiet time and prayer, that will make you wonder where he got such deep thoughts from. Of course we know, but it is still hard to believe sometimes. I guess it is that child-like faith.


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## huntinguy

great thread!


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