# Spinning rod w/ 'Concept' guide placement, seems restrictive?



## ShawnQ

Is it just me or does the 'concept' guide placement seem restrictive?

I'm using a 2500 sized reel on a 7' rod. I purchased a concept guide setup and the largest is a 25 Ring size. It seems like the line has too make an angle from the reel to the eye when the bail is open.

Wouldn't this cause a lack of casting distance?

My use for the rod is casting light lures - so the less resistance, the better. Should I look at a more typical guide layout in lieu of the 'concept' style?

Any input is appreciated. I feel like I need a 30 Ring...salesman assured me I wont/dont.

Thanks,
Shawn


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## Goags

I think the spool diameter of a 2500 is ~50mm or less. A #25 ring should be fine for the first guide, as long as it's tall enough. Did you buy a set on a card, or did the salesman select some for you?


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## fishin styx

That's a huge stripper guide. My 7' spinning rods (3000 reels) start with a 20 or maybe a 16 and go down from there.
It's all about collecting the wasted energy of the line coils and doing something useful with it. The faster you collect it, the more efficient the cast.


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## ShawnQ

The salesman selected them based on a verbal description of the blank because I didn't have it in person. It just seems like there is a heavy angle where the line meets the ring on the stripper guide. If I move it up to minimize it, it's too far up the blank.

I'll mess with it some more after turkey day.


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## johnmyjohn

I'm fixing to stick a 7' castaway blank together with the same eyes. I too have a thought or two about the small eyes but like you was told that Fugi had write ups and they were possitive. I was planning standard sized double footed spinning eyes but my local rod monger said concept would help cast further and knock off a lot of weight from the front part of the rod. It will also give you back a lot of rod action or remedy some of the coach whip effect also. I've never fished with a spinner made this way and I'm old school but I can't find something better if I don't try it. Post it up when you finish it, I will post mine too if I can get past the cork grip art.


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## CroakerJO

Sounds like your stripper is too close to the reel. Moving it out may seem a little whacky but if you tape it and try it and have no line slap on the blank you should be OK. Anglers Resource has just added a thing called GPS, Guide Positioning Software, to their website that's getting good reviews. It should help you a lot, specially since you already know what reel you're going to use.


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## Charlie2

*Concept Guide Spacings*

All of the so-called Concept guide spacings have one thing in common. They all will require some final 'tweaking' to get their spacings absolutely correct.

I will consult a chart some times and use the GPS (software) but it all finally involves static placement. JMHO C2


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## xxxxxQTRODS

*its all about line*

i have argue that concepts are a fade. they are something new to sale. they do make the rod lighter and more chrisp, but at the sacrifice casting mono. the concept guides are good for your upper grades of line that do not creat so much memory. those line are floral carbons and braid and they do not float. it is best u use the braid that has the tefelon coating. i custom build a lot of rod and test them and i know all the lay outs. i found the best lay out is the one i found on rodcrafter.org. this lay out does not chock the line down as quick as the cocepts do. also if you buy a rod off the rack u never get good quality guides. u get the most inexpensive guides. guides do make a difference. u can change the back guide for a little more size and a better quality of ceramic like sic, but if u want to throw top water with light mono, i suggest that go back to coventional. concept guides do good with casting reels but spinnning reel that constantly creat memory not so good.....................bennie


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## xxxxxQTRODS

QTRODS said:


> i have argue that concepts are a fade. they are something new to sale. they do make the rod lighter and more chrisp, but at the sacrifice casting mono. the concept guides are good for your upper grades of line that do not creat so much memory. those line are floral carbons and braid and they do not float. it is best u use the braid that has the tefelon coating. i custom build a lot of rod and test them and i know all the lay outs. i found the best lay out is the one i found on rodcrafter.org. this lay out does not chock the line down as quick as the cocepts do. also if you buy a rod off the rack u never get good quality guides. u get the most inexpensive guides. guides do make a difference. u can change the back guide for a little more size and a better quality of ceramic like sic, but if u want to throw top water with light mono, i suggest that go back to coventional. concept guides do good with casting reels but spinnning reel that constantly creat memory not so good.....................bennie


it is rodbuilder.org


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## fishin styx

QTRODS said:


> i have argue that concepts are a fade. they are something new to sale. they do make the rod lighter and more chrisp, but at the sacrifice casting mono. the concept guides are good for your upper grades of line that do not creat so much memory. those line are floral carbons and braid and they do not float. it is best u use the braid that has the tefelon coating. i custom build a lot of rod and test them and i know all the lay outs. i found the best lay out is the one i found on rodcrafter.org. this lay out does not chock the line down as quick as the cocepts do. also if you buy a rod off the rack u never get good quality guides. u get the most inexpensive guides. guides do make a difference. u can change the back guide for a little more size and a better quality of ceramic like sic, but if u want to throw top water with light mono, i suggest that go back to coventional. concept guides do good with casting reels but spinnning reel that constantly creat memory not so good.....................bennie


Wow


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## Goags

fishin styx said:


> Wow


 yep


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## CroakerJO

Seems odd that you would suggest that something that has been around (and proven) for almost 20 years on literally MILLIONS of rods as a "fad". I humbly suggest a review of the original theory.


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## CaptDocHoliday

I have put concept guides on all of my spinning rods (7'6"), stripping with a *tall* 16 or 12 and running with four or five 4's to the tip. Compared to a Falcon HD of equal action and length I'm getting 3-6 yards improvement in casting distance with 1/8 jig heads as my test lure.

The more limber FTU blanks are better for casting the lighter lures, though I love love love my Phenix. Will be building on a comperable MHX next to round out the tests but so far Concept guides are performing well for me.


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## CroakerJO

Anglers Resource has just added a thing called GPS, guide placement software to their website that takes some guesswork out of the NGC. Might be handy, many say it's working good for them.


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## Charlie2

*GPS Software*



CroakerJO said:


> Anglers Resource has just added a thing called GPS, guide placement software to their website that takes some guesswork out of the NGC. Might be handy, many say it's working good for them.


I mentioned GPS,(Introduced by Fuji for their 'K' System guides) in my earlier post and also posted that it has it's merits but still requires some 'tweaking'(up to 2"in some cases) It also requires some butt guide size and progression manipulation.

All systems require some 'tweaking' to be absolutely correct in their spacings for that particular rod.

Static placement is the way to go after using one of these systems for the initial guide placement. It works for that particular rod. JMHO C2


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## xxxxxQTRODS

*rooster poot*

what kind of line are yall fishing with, is it mono or braid, floral corbon. some of yall have tell me that i can start off with #8 not a number #16 stripper and go down. ever since ive been on this site and complaining about micros yall seem to be getting large with strippers. i think yall are trying to rooster poot people. huh


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## fishin styx

QTRODS said:


> what kind of line are yall fishing with, is it mono or braid, floral corbon. some of yall have tell me that i can start off with #8 not a number #16 stripper and go down. ever since ive been on this site and complaining about micros yall seem to be getting large with strippers. i think yall are trying to rooster poot people. huh


The stripper guide on a spinning reel is all about height, regardless of line type. If I could find a size 4 stripper guide but with the height of a 20, I'd use it. The idea is to gather the line quickly and transfer more of the cast energy into the bait. You do that by lightening up the rod tip section and controlling the line faster. 
Pac Bay Minima 4's are pretty close but I'm not sold on their durability in salt water, they just look a little flimsy to me.


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## xxxxxQTRODS

*line*

no one ever answer the question of the type line that yall are using are the size. size does matter especially in mono. if u are using mono how often do u change it out.
i do understand the height of the guides. i have been using the taller guides since fuji first introduced them about twenty years ago. i repair reel and the spinning reel by nature of its design it creats memory in mono. hell thats why u get two spools with a spinning reel, because u keep the extra spool in your tackle box so u could change it out when the line twisted of fouled. so yall think that everytime a spinning reel is crank in and creats memory that the guides are going to iron that memory out. i did not even start repair spinning reels until braided line came out bingo no memory so i started repairing spinning reel and industry started building expensive ones. i guess u boys have lots of that old money, yall can change that line out as often as u like.* I LOVE YALL MAN, BUT OUR OPION DO NOT JIV SOMETIMES HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO U ALL*


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## ShawnQ

I'm throwing 20# braid with 6# diameter. 

My main concern with the bottleneck at the stripper guide is the braided line wearing on the guide ring. The nose is also annoying. If it only gives me 3-5yrs, id just rather use the old school method. However, if I get a MUCH more sensitive rod with the concept method, then I'm more tempted to put up with the noise that striper guide makes.


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## CoastalBent

Rooster poot.


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## xxxxxQTRODS

*braid*



ShawnQ said:


> I'm throwing 20# braid with 6# diameter.
> 
> My main concern with the bottleneck at the stripper guide is the braided line wearing on the guide ring. The nose is also annoying. If it only gives me 3-5yrs, id just rather use the old school method. However, if I get a MUCH more sensitive rod with the concept method, then I'm more tempted to put up with the noise that striper guide makes.


 u are not going to where that line anytime soon. if concept guides are those wire guide, why , if u are going to run braid do not use wire guides. use alconite then u will have something and go by the setup on rodbuilders.org.


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## Swampland

QTRODS said:


> u are not going to where that line anytime soon. if concept guides are those wire guide, why , if u are going to run braid do not use wire guides. use alconite then u will have something and go by the setup on rodbuilders.org.


Concept guides and System. A nice explanation and write up on the Concept Guide System directly from Fuji's website.

http://www.anglersresource.net/TheoryoftheNewGuideConceptNGC.aspx


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## CroakerJO

Fishin Styx is right. Energy is used with any kind of layout during the cast. With conventional builds, the energy of the line coil and the slower restriction of the coil uses energy a "little at a time". In a micro rod, properly laid out, the energy is used "up front" to reduce the coil quickly and smooth the line through the remainder of the guides (which uses very little energy). The general consensus (from custom builders and now factories as well) seems to be that a micro layout uses less energy overall than a conventional layout and that is what explains an increase in casting distance. The latest research is indicating that even shorter reduction trains (as short as two guides) with small rings OF THE PROPER HEIGHT, will further improve the performance of the rod. These rods are VERY quiet and have less vibration than even "concept" builds when they are spaced and positioned correctly.

As far as ring wear, todays braids are smoother, and have harder surfaces while still being limp and forgiving. BUT, the smoothness makes them less abrasive than in the past. There seems to be less worry about the line grooving the guide these days and more worry about the ring making the braid go "fuzzy". A lot of rod builders are choosing very hard, very highly polished rings (like SiC) to avoid the "fuzzies" with high dollar braid.

IMO there's just too much work being done on the whole micro guide concept to call it "rooster poot".

AS far as GPS goes, Anglers Resource calls it a "starting point", but it takes the reel angle and guide height into account before generating position. A printed layout for a given blank considers absolutely nothing about the mechanics of what will happen when the rod is actually carrying a reel. Nothing about guide height, nothing about reel size, reel angle, line size...nada. That might work for casting rods but you'll be lucky to get a "high performance" spinning rod with so little information.


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## Goags

CroakerJO said:


> IMO there's just too much work being done on the whole micro guide concept to call it "rooster poot".


I can't speak for KJ, but I don't THINK he was referring to the micro guides concept...


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## CroakerJO

Sorry, you're right. The original question was size and placement of a 25 or 30...comments kept suggesting smaller and smaller strippers till I thought we were discussing micros.


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## fishin styx

CroakerJO said:


> Sorry, you're right. The original question was size and placement of a 25 or 30...comments kept suggesting smaller and smaller strippers till I thought we were discussing micros.


That was probably my fault but nothing's worse that fishing a spinning rod with a stripper guide that is way over sized.

For that matter, big strippers of any kind are bad idea.sad3sm


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## CroakerJO

100% agree. I had to go to 13 feet before I ever reached for a 25, and even then kept working with a 20 until I was pulling hairs.


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## Goags

So, how small do you guys go on the butt guide, using, say a 50mm diam spool w/ mono?


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## mark blabaum

Jerry, I like to buck the common trends and use a M style 12mm (or down to 10mm) for any spinning reel. I've never noticed any loss of casting ability and many times notice an increase in distance with a smaller guide at the butt. I think you will find setting the first stripper guide at the distance between 19 to 20 inches and test casting, adjusting until you find a sweet spot is more important than the size of the guide. The people that think I'm crazy have never tried this method and really need to before they condemn the concept; they may be pleasantly surprised.


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## Charlie2

*Stripper Guide Sizes*



mark blabaum said:


> Jerry, I like to buck the common trends and use a M style 12mm (or down to 10mm) for any spinning reel. I've never noticed any loss of casting ability and many times notice an increase in distance with a smaller guide at the butt. I think you will find setting the first stripper guide at the distance between 19 to 20 inches and test casting, adjusting until you find a sweet spot is more important than the size of the guide. The people that think I'm crazy have never tried this method and really need to before they condemn the concept; they may be pleasantly surprised.


I agree with you.

I built a combination fly/spinning rod and after doing the static placement/test casting with both methods, I was surprised to find that a smaller stripping guides works well.

As I posted before; all of the 'new' concepts rely on a final static placement. They call it 'tweaking'. Let the rod do the talking. JMHO C2


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## mark blabaum

I should also have included the 19-20 inch starting point is from the (rough) center of the reels spool. Again this is the starting point.


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## fishin styx

Goags said:


> So, how small do you guys go on the butt guide, using, say a 50mm diam spool w/ mono?


I do like Mark and start with, usually, a 16.


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## xxxxxQTRODS

*do u want the rod to be alittle versital*

the the stripper guide should be 50 percent of your spool. are u going to be continually casting like bass fishing. i just built a rod a year ago with guide set using the set up on the rodbuilding.org. i took my reel and lay it out to the rod and found the transition point and went from there. i let the line set where the larger guide are to be placed. this worked for me and i fished with this rod with braided line and it casted fine with no problem. still has the same line on it and is able to fish.

iknow this works if u are going to fish alot, but other setups work, but sometime u need to keep it simple and just build the rod and go fishing.


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## fishin styx

QTRODS said:


> the the stripper guide should be 50 percent of your spool.


Trying to understand the reasoning here but why not 45% or 32%?


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## CroakerJO

A concept build, as mentioned above, is about height. It has little to do with action or rod length or anything else. The spool axle on a spinning reel sits at an angle to the blank. If you project the angle of the axle it will cross the blank (a choke point). If you then draw a line from the choke point back to the tip of the axle you will be tracing the line the guides HEIGHT should match anywhere on that line. Close to the reel it will take a very tall guide, close to the choke point it will take a very short guide. We once thought that the size of the ring was important, but the micro guide "boys" have proven that if the HEIGHT is right, you can achieve great performance with a very small ring. Reels vary in angle and height. That is why "concept" builders talk about the reel so much. They can't build the rod for maximum performance without knowing something about the reel or at least the series i.e. a 2500 or 4000. The principals hold true for all types of line, but mono and flouro are so stiff the rod may perform better with a slightly larger ring, say one size larger for the stripper. Running guides can be small for all types of line provided you can get leader knots through them.


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## ncmullet

Just got done building a 6' light matrix spinning rod. Used the layout by Tom Kirkman from Rod Builders org. The guides I used were a 20, 10, 4-6's and laid it out just like it was supposed be with the choke point and the static guide test and it just didn't seem to cast as good my Shimano 6' rods with similar blanks. So I went back to a 25, 16, 8L, 7 and 2-6's and it seemed to me like it casted better. This is the 1st rod I built in many years and would like to figure out the Concept guide system. Is it possible anyone could post a picture of their set up, especially with the line running through the guides. The rod was built for a Shimano Stradic 1000 reel. I'm starting an MHX6.6 for a Stradic 2500 reel and I'm going to give the Concept guide another shot.


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## CroakerJO

Fuji developed the original concept and Kirkman had a hand in popularizing it over the years but he has also modified it with some calculations of his own, namely 27X. Often the reel model is unknown and an alternative was needed for those times. 27X has been a tremendous contribution from Tom and we owe him a lot, but sometimes it's good to review Fuji's original intentions. 

The real key to making a spinning rod work to it's full potential is setting it up for a specific reel. Measuring the reel is KEY to determining the angle of the axle, it's height off the blank and ultimately where the line "wants" to go when you cast. Once you unlock that information you can then MANAGE that line flow down to the blank and take advantage of what the reel and rod are trying to do together. 

As a new rod builder, I think you could learn a lot from Anglers Resource's new website. They've taken a lot of time addressing these issues and even developed the GPS you've seen mentioned here that "crunches" all the data for you. Measure your reel according to the tutorial and compare what you get with GPS against what you've been doing. You'll learn a lot at the very least. I might have the measurements for a 2500 Stradic. I'll suggest a layout if I do.


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## CroakerJO

The Stradic 2500 axle tip sits 75.8mm off the blank. The choke point is at 887mm.
Use the measurements below at www.anglersresource.net at the GPS link. Choose a guide model (I would suggest KL) and see how the layout works for you. Tape it up and cast it.
A=84.7mm, B=75.8mm and C=100mm


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## lufty

*New Guide*

SwampLand sells that new Microwave Guide that Castaway uses on there rods.


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## fishin styx

lufty said:


> SwampLand sells that new Microwave Guide that Castaway uses on there rods.


Have you felt how heavy that dang thing is?


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## lufty

Have you held one in your hands? Did you get to cast it?


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## fishin styx

lufty said:


> Have you held one in your hands? Did you get to cast it?


Yep, I've 2 of them. Have not built the rods yet but the plan is to put it through a bunch test casting, then rewrap with spinning guides (high frames size 16, 12, 10) do the same amount of casts with the same plug and see where it all falls from there.
It may be the cat's meow but I tend to approach things with a grain of salt until I've proven it to myself.


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## Charlie2

*Microwave Guides*



lufty said:


> SwampLand sells that new Microwave Guide that Castaway uses on there rods.


That MW guide looks just like the front end of a Zebco 33 Reel.  C2


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## fishin styx

Charlie2 said:


> That MW guide looks just like the front end of a Zebco 33 Reel.  C2


As best as I can tell, that's about what it is but I'll try just about anything once.


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## Bill Stevens

*Microwave Spinning Guide*

The use of the Microwave guide on task specific bass rods like shaky head and drop shot rods provides no brainer benefits. A former winner of the Bassmaster classic was astonished at his increased lure time in water resulting from the tangle free feature provided by the straight line flow at the exit of the small ring on the Microwave Guide. Time lost removing tangles and wind knots is virtually eliminated.

Take a look at the line flow exiting the small ring of the butt guide.

http://www.rodbuilding.org/photopos.../11548/title/castaway-microwave-guide/cat/all

The thing works! When you throw one for the first time take it very easy - you will not believe how far the lure goes with very little effort.


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## Charlie2

*Spinning Rod Concepts*

I built a spinning/fly rod combination and placing the 'tamer' guide on the blank for flyrod operation increased distance when used in the spinning rod configuration. C2


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## fishin styx

lufty said:


> Have you held one in your hands? Did you get to cast it?


I got the Microwave wrapped on and went through some paces last night. This SOB is freaking heavy. It's on a prototype blank that should be very good but it just seems to dog the blank.
Now, I will admit that I haven't tested it against my normal guide train yet but it will be tonight. I'll let the measurements tell me if I'm right.
I still think if the idea is to reduce weight and control the line faster, there's a better way but we'll see.


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