# How y'all handle this?



## Marshman (Jul 24, 2008)

The last couple weeks ( one group after Christmas, one after New Years ) I had a couple groups of Friends/Clients/Friends of Friends come out to the Man Camp. It was normally a couple kids per adult, kids being grandkids or kids, ages 9-18 on the kids. No kids without hunter safety hunt by themselves, I tried to sit with the kids most likely to NOT understand my strategy for shooting.

Rules for shooting are pretty simple:

1. No axis does.
2. No young whitetail bucks - especially 2-3 yr 8-11 points!!!
3. No young axis bucks.
4. If it is a trophy, mount it, or save it for someone who will ( applies mainly to sheep).

Other than that, shoot anything you want. We have Axis, whitetail, fallow, sika, several different sheep, auodad and pigs, probably missed out on something.

On each outing, someone shot something they shouldn't, clearly. One 17 yr old shot a very nice, VERY young 9 point, next week, an adult shot a very young, in velvet axis. We had had a very detailed discussion of what to shoot, the adult had came out last year a couple times ( friend of a very good friend, and it is about the only time his 9 yr old gets to hunt, and I am all about getting the little guys involved). The 17 yr old, hunts often, and knows deer. He has LOTS of pics on his phone of good mature deer, from his grandpa's game cam, mainly nocturnal. His quote afterwards = "biggest deer I ever saw", 

FWIW, both were shot in the afternoon of the last full day's hunt, kinda like " if I don't get this one, may not get anything" is what I am thinking.

Also, both, are voted most likely to be sleeping in the blind!

How do you handle these situations at your place? My place is mine, it is fairly large, I do not "share" it with anyone. My very close friend, who brought the adult and his kid, is aghast at the position his friend has put him in.

I hate to say " banned", it affects the kids, but I am pretty miffed about what FEELS like disregard for what we are trying to do. 

Ideas guys?


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

I think its a chance you take turning people on your place unsupervised. I would tell both offenders that they will not be allowed back to hunt next year but could come out and fellowship. I would allow the adults son to hunt next year since its not his fault his dad has questionable judgment. If he chooses not to bring his son back to hunt because he cannot, then you know all you need to know about him... Walker


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## nate56 (Dec 11, 2010)

I or someone else sits with whomever is hunting... it eliminates everything..every ranch or lease is different especially on size and weight of deer...even if its 5 miles apart from each other or right down the road..I only let people sit in the stand by themselves if they are looking/ filming or taking photos of animals or even just shooting varmits.. but no deer..


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

nate56 said:


> I or someone else sits with whomever is hunting... it eliminates everything..every ranch or lease is different especially on size and weight of deer...even if its 5 miles apart from each other or right down the road..I only let people sit in the stand by themselves if they are looking/ filming or taking photos of animals or even just shooting varmits.. but no deer..


Agree. If you turn them loose they will always make a mistake. Most of them have never seen a decent deer and do not know how to judge one.


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## FREON (Jun 14, 2005)

If it were my place, they would be sent to PERMANENT Band Camp! Period......


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## Spec-Rig.006 (Nov 2, 2007)

What he said ... ^, one warning and then you're gone. Everyone makes mistakes, what's important is that you learn from them, ONCE. Someone will soak up those spots faster than you can imagine.


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

The 17 yr old is a tough one. He's a kid. The "biggest" deer he's ever seen walks out, I'm sure it wasn't hard for him to convince himself the deer met the criteria. I'd have a serious one on one talk with him explaining your goals and how important management is to enhance your ranch. Chalk it up to a learning experience, give him another chance and hope he learns from it and even passes it on at some point.....

The adult......no excuse....you said no young axis bucks and he shot one....no brainer here....adios....wouldn't give it a second thought.....


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## stickman (Apr 17, 2012)

Lets look at it from the other end. I have never had a envite like that nor do I ever forsee an envite. a envite like that should be recieved as a chance to enjoy something with the one who envited you. Envites should be gifts and not expected. The trip should be about the experience and NOT the kill. It sounds like you are clear on what the rules are, so their job is to be clear on understanding. If they are unclear they need to ask. Once the trigger is pulled its to late for questions. If they are there for the kill then does are the simple answer. My point of view is ask yourself how greatful were they to be there and how respectful were they of you, your property, and your wishes?


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## 9121SS (Jun 28, 2009)

Brete said:


> The 17 yr old is a tough one. He's a kid. The "biggest" deer he's ever seen walks out, I'm sure it wasn't hard for him to convince himself the deer met the criteria. I'd have a serious one on one talk with him explaining your goals and how important management is to enhance your ranch. Chalk it up to a learning experience, give him another chance and hope he learns from it and even passes it on at some point.....
> 
> The adult......no excuse....you said no young axis bucks and he shot one....no brainer here....adios....wouldn't give it a second thought.....


This!


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## jiginit (Jun 8, 2010)

The devils advocate here. You have made a mistake thinking the 17 yr old knows deer. He is 17 for peets sake. No teenager really knows a thing about aging a deer. Hunting for kids is all about accomplishment. Shooting a deer larger than the last. If you chastise a kid for shooting the best deer he has ever seen then you simply tarnish his accomplishment in his eyes. Its okay to educate but praise him first. The dad on the other hand should have known better but so should have you. If you going to limit what is to be shot you should hunt with them until you know they have an understanding of what is and is not to be shot. This mentality of yours is the sole reason I have stopped deer hunting in Texas all together.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> I would allow the adults son to hunt next year since its not his fault his dad has questionable judgment. If he chooses not to bring his son back to hunt because he cannot, then you know all you need to know about him.


This. And in no way would the father be able to hunt on my place again.

TH


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## BigBuck (Mar 2, 2005)

*Hunters*

What RackRanch said. 
And, at least a year off for the 17 yr old. Not following rules has its consequences.
BB


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## Chunky (Oct 15, 2006)

I think all you can do is not ask them back...or only let them hunt supervised. When I take a guest on our deer lease, I always sit with them.


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## stickman (Apr 17, 2012)

Jiginit I see your point with the child, but not with the mentality thought. I am sure you have rules around your house maybe something like no shoes on the couch? Or some other common rules. I am no deer master but do realize there are common guidelines to deer management. So that mentality is a must and very common mentality in order to be able to see the biggest deer of a lifetime!


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

If you think it was a mistake I would simply ask the friend who invited them to sit with them next few times to be sure they stay compliant. 

If you think for sure they KNEW they were wrong and shot anyway then I would not have them back. In the case of the 17 year old I might cut him a break because that buck fever can get the best of him, and you mentioned that was the biggest buck he'd ever seen.


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## hayter12 (Dec 28, 2011)

had similar issue with my dads buisness parntner and his brother both shot 2.5 year old deer and pretty small ones. we still give them invites to come to our ranch but now they are only allowed to shoot pigs. neither one has accepted our invites.


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## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

The adult could come back as a non shooting guest so his son could hunt if that is important to him and you. Tough call on the 17yr old. You said he hunts often and has pictures of deer on his cell phone. I'd lean towards he knew what he was shooting at.


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## rrp (Oct 24, 2009)

I am wondering did the adult appoligize for the out come of the hunt?

People make mistakes, unfortunalty its the human nature to make them. If the adult appoligized for his actions and tried to make admins with the situation and was sincer I could see them coming back. I would however maybe not let them hunt for a year or two but instead take them with you on a non-hunting day and try to educate them on proper scoring and aging. 
Alot of hunters lack the knowledge and experience to make good judgment calls while observing animals. I think that this is a chance for you yourself to improve the knowledge and experiance of fellow hunters. 
We all knew alot less about managing and growing wildlife populations than we do now. We are just lucky to have had great experiances in hunting and great teachers to teach us along the way. Maybe this is your chance to do the same?

These are just my opinions.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

First mistake was turning em out alone. I feel you should have known better. And now the horse is out of the gate. Live and learn. And really no conversation needed other than with the 17 year old. There are consequences for not following rules. Sorry no invite back. No conversation with dad is needed, he just doesent get another invite. Jus sayin.


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## Jock Ewing (Mar 26, 2006)

If they were friends who made an honest mistake, I would invite them back. If it was intentional disregard of your rules, they are not your friends.

If they made an honest mistake, then help educate them in a non-chiding manner.

Best way to educate people is to make every one video what they see at the stand. Every one sits and watches the video together. The videoer first articulates what they believe the age and score to be with their reasoning (i.e., this deer's brow tines appear to be 6 inches because they are approximately the same length as the deer's ears). Then the group chimes in with any differing opinions and their reasoning.

That's when I really learned how to properly age and score bucks, by discussing the details that make up the age and score. It's actually kind of fun to do it this way as you get to experience the hunts of other people on the place. (Just make sure you try and limit filming to a minute or so of good footage per deer that you are interested in -- I don't care for making it an all day project by watching 30 minutes of the same buck x 20).


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## altez (Sep 12, 2012)

hayter12 said:


> had similar issue with my dads buisness parntner and his brother both shot 2.5 year old deer and pretty small ones. we still give them invites to come to our ranch but now they are only allowed to shoot pigs. neither one has accepted our invites.


Nice of ya to still offer hog hunt! Shoot, I'll come out any shoot hogs if anyone invites me to hunt hogs at their place!


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## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

tough call.....if you invite them back......I would say supervised only hunts


I have a friend with a ST ranch and he learned the hard way with clients


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## uncle dave (Jul 27, 2008)

If it were my ranch they would not be invited back period.


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## Bayduck (May 22, 2004)

*We have saying at our house*

" When the lab gets into the trash , who's fault is it ??? "

You sound very generous with your property and give people the opportunity to do the right thing and have a terriffic experience.

Unforuanetly , when left unsupervised , there are going to be mistakes. They happen for different reasons , but mistakes non the less.

The easy answer is to never invite them back. Only you know how much those mistakes matter vs. the enjoyment you get from their company and commerodery.

Good Luck.


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## Marshman (Jul 24, 2008)

It is a difficult position, neither of the offenders is " first relation", but through my friend. He feels awful, and he is put into a harder place than I am. I do generally believe most people want to do the right things, but sometimes, well, they don't. Banning someone after the fact, still doesn't prevent the shot, however. But it does send a message for future miscreants.

FWIW, we did spend a good 30-60 minutes the first evening of each hunt, discussing the plans/guidelines, as this is not the first time I've had this happen. Sitting with each one, is not an option, too many kids, I was relying on the dads/grandads to keep the kids straight - we had a lot more kids without the ability to hunt alone, than the couple we did.

As I said, it has happened before, I thought I was pretty good at ID'ing possible issues ahead of time. The 17 yr old, I did sit with him the first morning, other than sleeping most of the time in the blind, I thought he "got" it. I have noted, previously, the most likely offenders are from areas where they are less likely to see a trophy, like deep east Texas. 

One of my older friends said " easy solution - ban all cameras and cell phones, and cut the deer up for camp meat, with their tag on it". Another suggestion was to put a price tag on the young deer - if you shoot one, it's $2500 bucks, cash. Most of these guys don't have that kinda dough, and I don't want it to be about the money, because it is not.

I've never been on a high dollar trophy hunt, without having a guide in the blind - he ain't there to help you shoot a big critter - he's there to make sure you don't shoot the wrong one!!!

Say one more thing - I do enjoy the smiles on the little guys faces, when a good hunt is had. We spend a lot of time working on the kids shooting during the middle of the day, and some on the dads shooting too. The smile on the kids face after busting a pig or deer at 100 yards, or dad's hitting a steel gong at 400 yards, is pretty dang rewarding. Don't really want to dampen or lose that... a couple deer a year isn't worth that.


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## concan (Aug 10, 2009)

First let me thank you for what your doing for kids and folks that don't have the opportunity to hunt on their own. Opening your property to them is a most generous action and one pretty much unheard of these days. Also your to be congratulated for being a good steward of your property. 

To remove the opportunity for a kid making a mistake you might make it a requirement up front that if they come they must come with an adult who must accompany them in the blind. No chaperone no hunt. Chaperones should not expect to hunt unless you ok it. Whoever is the invitee should be expected to pay the food, drinks etc for their party. 

As for adults that fail to follow rules perhaps a replacement fee for the animal taken should be agreed on before hunting and the knowledge up front that failure to follow your rules will result in them loosing their invitation in the future. 

It's impossible to guarantee no mistakes will be made so just do what you can to minimize the possibility. 

Can't believe the folks that want to place the onus on you somehow.


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## daniel greak (Aug 16, 2005)

Okay, I don't weigh in on topics often, but I figured I might as well. I used to share allot of the same feelings as you do about this, it would literally ruin the rest of my hunting season when somebody brought their kids and 2 1/2" year got shoot. I guess what changed for me was when I had kids. I think we all strive to shoot the right animal (mature, score, cull, or whatever you're looking for), but when kids get involved the water can get muddied real quick. I don't know your ranch situation, size, number or animals harvested, or anything else like that, so maybe I am not the best person to speak on this.

Like it has been stated earlier you are real good guy to allow people on your place, that doesn't happen often, and good for you for doing so.

Depending on what your goals, and what you have running around out there, are a couple of mistakes going to make a greater difference for the bad, than all the good it did letting those kids take the animal?

I spend allot time with my kids waiting on the right deer, and letting them know why we are passing on other ones. It's not always easy to tell a 10 or 7 year old "you can't shoot that", and other times it seems to make sense to let them take the animal. 

I am firm believer that you have to teach them be stewards of the land and wildlife, but in most cases a few mistakes aren't going to change your goals negatively.

I have no doubt that your friend is eat up with guilt over this, and I am sure you aren't real happy either. But, from experience crushing a kids excitement is a terrible thing, and in the grand scheme of things I don't think it does you or I any good either.

I'm sure you handled the situation correctly, and in the end you will make a decision you can live with. But, still you did a good deed letting them come out and hunt, don't let a mistake ruin what this did for the kids.


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## wennis1 (Nov 5, 2008)

Regardless of age a 17 yr old boy had to be questioning this at the time of the incident. "is this what I'm not supposed to shoot?" "Oh well its the biggest thing I have ever seen."...BOOM! I wouldn't ban him forever because he still has a chance to learn from his mistake. I would definitely not let the kid hunt the next year. There should be consequences and he will learn from those consequences. Maybe tell the kid if he wants to hunt in two years he has to write an essay that is based on Game Management.

I agree with Rack Ranch to let the kid come back next year but do not let him hunt. Make him sit with someone experienced that can maybe teach him about how to tell if the deer is old or young.

As for the adult who shot the Axis. I would definitely ban him for good. There is no chance to teach him anything. He is grown and his moral code is set. It's like trying to teach a filthy poacher to stop doing what he does.


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## JFolm (Apr 22, 2012)

Green to you. I wish people like you were more plentiful!


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## wennis1 (Nov 5, 2008)

One more thing.

Just last week I was invited to a 900 acre ranch to do some hunting with my friend and his father-in-law. The land owner had 5 doe tags and told us that if we saw two doe to take them both. They also told us not shoot small (button) bucks. We could however take cull bucks or spikes. I let a bunch of deer pass on the first day looking for a doe with some size but I never saw her. On the last hunt for me and my friend they put us in a double blind. A doe walked out that had two young deer with her. I took aim and dropped the doe. The two smaller deer just stood there. My friend and I both looked in our binoculars and through the scopes of our guns to see if one was a doe. It was hard to see (5:50pm) but we both agreed that we do not see any horns or even buttons. I made the decision to take one down and did. It turned out to be a button buck. I felt horrible and told the land owner. He said don't worry about it. People make mistakes.
I honestly thought it was a small doe.


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## wash out (Apr 14, 2008)

I used to do the same kind of a hunt as a way to cull the whitetail doe numbers. It started out as a few friends and family and a good time was had by all. Next thing I know I've got friends of friends and it grew to 20-25 guys and every year mistakes were made. I finally stopped the hunt for a couple of years. I do it again now because I enjoy it so much--but I'm back to the original friends and family. If I don't know you, you are not invited.
For me, it came down to respect. I put a lot of work into the hunt and probably spend over $1,000 just on groceries, not to mention the 40-50 bags of corn we go through. People seemed to think they had a right to be there and would break rules because "I" wouldn't do anything. They seemed to have no appreciation for what I was doing.
It was still a tough call though. In the end it wasn't about the mistakes--everyone makes mistakes, it was about the attitudes of the people involved.


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## Marshman (Jul 24, 2008)

Washout, I appreciate your comments, as well as the others I received here.

I'm not going to go overboard here. maybe next year, scale back a bit on these post holiday late season hunts, more family, more focus on the kids. I'm thinking no adults with rifles in the blinds, for a year anyway. Keep the focus on the kids, and manage the kids a little tighter.

As was said, if the lab gets in the trash, whose fault was it?


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## afishinman14 (Dec 19, 2007)

I like the focus on the kids for next yr. I know that I had no idea how aging a deer was important until late into college. And I think it would really help if you taught them not only that shooting older deer is important, but why its important. As I type this, I have a feeling you probably do explain this haha...

I'd let the 17 yr old come back the next yr and shoot pigs or a doe or something, and maybe you could sit with him and help him age. Heck, you might even see another large-racked young buck and you can show him to not look at antlers, but to truly age him independent of his rack. Its a great opportunity to teach a young hunter, who can then in turn teach others. Thus spreading better hunting practices. 

I recently took a friend to my lease. I lease a place all to myself. I pay all costs. From the lease to the blinds, feeders, and feed. I told him (an experienced hunter) to shoot whatever, knowing that he knew not to shoot young bucks. Two does came out before shooting light. He waited to 15 minutes after he could legally shoot and took one. Well the smaller one crossed in front of the other as he shot. Or so I am told, and I believe him. The other doe would have provided alot more meat, as this is all he was after. Turns out that doe, wasn't a doe. But a button buck. Honest mistake. I don't know too many people who shoot knubbin bucks on purpose. And I was in a nearby blind and know what time he shot, I wouldn't have seen buttons either. And he wasn't even going after that deer, so its a moot point. 

Anyways, my point is that I can do nothing now to bring that deer back. And there are plenty of other deer there. I didnt lose 20 button bucks. I told him obviously the result wasnt the greatest, but I couldn't get mad. What good does that do? I bet I invite him next yr, because I know he will probably refrain from pullin the trigger if theres even a slight chance of making the same mistake. I like teaching, and sharing good hunting practices. Can't get too mad at the rest of the state's hunters who shoot everything that moves, when they most likely haven't been educated on the subject, or have been told but not explained the importance of managing the population so that everyone can enjoy shooting larger, healthier, mature deer.


Sorry for the length. And kudos to you for not blowing a gasket. I know some would blow up.


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## Bingo baits (May 11, 2011)

Just weighing in im 15 and i cant age deer at all in the blind. I know my stuff and can age pictures amd score too but im just so exited when I get out hunting.


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## Marshman (Jul 24, 2008)

Bingo, thanks for your input, and honesty as well.

What would you say, if I said that perhaps you are not yet of the age of maturity to have a rifle alone in a blind, if your excitement did not permit you to follow the rules?

I'm not picking on you, really AM interested to hear your response!


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## artys_only (Mar 29, 2005)

Your ranch your rules adults and kiddos included if they. Can't judge they can hunt alone , adults are responsible for what they shoot if they can't tell don't shoot simple . I admire you for getting kides involved in hunting !!! It needs to be done by more people , but hunting is not about just shooting something it is about respecting nature and people . IMOP 

I would have them pay for feed or protein if you feed it to make up for the animals , at least 


Sent from somewhere between Texarkana and Laredo


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## fishingguy00 (Jul 12, 2012)

i know this is off subject but how mcuh do u charge for axis ,ram or fallow hunts


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## Marshman (Jul 24, 2008)

I don't do hunts, so sorry, its a family/friends thing. I pay all the bills and make the calls, it is less stressful that way. I never ask for a dime from anyone that comes out, although some friends have helped me with things that are worth more than money.

I can make more money, my friends are more important. I have blessed with more material stuff than I can use, I do enjoy giving some of it away!


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## fishingguy00 (Jul 12, 2012)

Marshman said:


> I don't do hunts, so sorry, its a family/friends thing. I pay all the bills and make the calls, it is less stressful that way. I never ask for a dime from anyone that comes out, although some friends have helped me with things that are worth more than money.
> 
> I can make more money, my friends are more important. I have blessed with more material stuff than I can use, I do enjoy giving some of it away!


It,s ok im 12 and my family doesnt have a whole lot of money and ive alway wanted one of those 3 animals. if you know anybody that does something similar to what your doing could you let me know?


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## davis300 (Jun 27, 2006)

FREON said:


> If it were my place, they would be sent to PERMANENT Band Camp! Period......


Yep, your place your rules! I would think anyone would be very appreciative of your gesture and at the very least have the courtesy to follow your wishes!


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## Mako1970 (Jul 7, 2011)

I think what you're doing is great and it sounds like you have plenty of experience doing it therefore you have seen both the good and the bad. Just from reading your post and questioning others for input, you sound very calm and sincere. I'm going to make the assumption that since these people come out to hunt on an invite from you that they either don't have a place to hunt and/or don't hunt much. My suggestion is (and maybe you did do that), to take the opportunity to teach everyone there what happened. For the young man, tell him it IS a nice buck, however, this is a buck that you consider too young to harvest and show him and everyone why his is too young and why he has potential to be a great buck and be able to pass his genes on to later generations. For the older guy, probably do the same thing. I expect a lot of hunters have little experience with exotics (I know I fit that description). If the older guy was unsure, he shouldn't have shot but that is too late now. You said it has happened before and it will surely happen again. Take a the great opportunity to teach with having the animals in hand. Rules are rules and obviously they were broken but a lot of other animals have been spared with those rules. I hope this helps a little.


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## cgerace19 (Jul 17, 2008)

I'd say give the kid a break. Just pretend that the deer was a few years older and a nice buck and forget about it. Maybe this thinking will help you forgive him. It does not change the fact that he broke the rules, but it may help you move past it. I would invite him back but limit him to only a doe the following year, or something similar. He shot his "quality" buck while young so he has to wait X number of years till the kill would be a worthy trophy. At that point, he will be open to shooting bucks. Heck, this would give him several years of seeing good deer and would definitely be a lesson that he will not forget. 

The adult, as others mentioned, is not allowed. Since he is a friend of a friend, that would be easy for me. Tell your friend he is welcome but not allowed to invite friends again.

Heck, I can't judge a deer's age so I would have to pass on any buck. but a doe, I can tell that.  

Good job for providing this opportunity to kids though!


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## PenaII (Oct 22, 2012)

If you have people with lesser abilities, safest thing is put someone with
them that knows your rules and helps them learn and protects your goal
of management


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## boom! (Jul 10, 2004)

If you shoot something that is off limits, we will need a check from you before you leave. Be SURE of what you are shooting or don't pull the trigger.


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## waterworx (Jul 23, 2009)

Put them in the blind with a camera first and let them take a "shot" of the animal in question and if you approve let them take a gun the next time.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

PenaII said:


> If you have people with lesser abilities, safest thing is put someone with
> them that knows your rules and helps them learn and protects your goal
> of management


 This.

What happened so far is done: the adult isn't going to get any better, and you won't do anything but hurt the kid's enjoyment of hunting.. Just institute a new rule that you put somebody you trust, who knows how to age and score deer and knows your program, with anybody who is an unknown quantity. If the "right" deer are there, they will still get taken. If they're not, they'll learn something in the process.


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