# Killing the weeds in my garden



## Blue.dog

For many years, I have always spent about a half day on my knees pulling weeds from my garden prior to roto-tilling it.

At 70 years old, this is getting a little tiring.

Anybody, just kill it all with roundup and wait a few weeks and then put the tiller to it.

thanks,
B.D


----------



## Johnny9

Do it before weeds go to seed or you will have more weeds later.


----------



## chumy

You need a better tiller?


----------



## Meadowlark

Might want to try a cover crop next time...


----------



## Blue.dog

Meadowlark,
I don't understand your answer. What kind of cover crop.
Then what do I do with it at this time.
B.D


----------



## Meadowlark

Nature abhors a vacuum...and will fill an empty garden with weeds, sometimes noxious weeds. 

I use two types of cover crops, winter and late summer/fall. The first picture below shows my current cover. We've had temps as low as 21 deg. so it kind of browned back, but it will really green up in another month or so. It includes turnips, and a couple of different types of clover. The clover will add N2 to the soil as well as protect from weeds. When I'm ready to plant spring crops, I'll just till it in....and will have very few weeds(almost none), a soil that will not need any additional N2, and makes a great seed bed. 

The second type pictured in the second picture are late cow and crowder peas. They also add N2 to the soil, provide tremendous soil building ability, and protect against weeds getting established. Sometimes, I will just shred the peas, let them reseed and grow back, shred, and repeat until frost, harvesting what we want to eat as we go along. 

This practice has resulted in very few weeds and a robust, healthy soil in my garden.


----------



## Blue.dog

Thanks,
Now I understand.
B.D


----------



## fish-r-ride

I sprayed roundup and waited and it worked fine. Someone told me if you do it too much it will neutralize the soil, but I can't see that happening because I was spraying the weeds and grass.


----------



## w_r_ranch

I have always sprayed with 'roundup' prior to planting. I still have to weed, but I always start with a clean slate.


----------



## T_rout

If your planting potted plants you may be able to spray a pre-emergent after the plants have taken root but before the weeds germinate. Google Helena chemicals and find a pre-emergent thats food safe. I deal with weeds in lawns and beds so I don't have to worry about eating the chemical.


----------



## Blue.dog

thanks,
B.D


----------



## Muddskipper

If its a garden that you will be eating out of I would suggest not using round up or other weed killers

They don't just go away after sprayed


----------



## srmtphillips

w_r_ranch said:


> I have always sprayed with 'roundup' prior to planting. I still have to weed, but I always start with a clean slate.


How long before planting? Last year I had heck with weeds and nut grass. I like the idea of spraying - killing it all and then tilling again. I start everything from seed in my barn anyway, so I've wondered if a pre-emergent would also help.


----------



## w_r_ranch

2 to 3 weeks with roundup. 

On nut sedge, we use a product call 'Sedgehammer +', it woks fine in the vegetable garden but ONLY if you use a 'paintbrush' method of application (DO NOT GET IT ON ANY ANNUALS LIKE VEGETABLES).


----------



## Muddskipper

There is all kind of new studies coming out on reasons not to use round up

Here is one article
http://www.dirtdoctor.com/organic/garden/view_org_research/id/183/

It's a poison ... And I can't stand by and let you not read it...


----------



## w_r_ranch

Irrational fear mongering, nothing more nothing less. 

I've posted up pictures of my gardens/yields & lawn, how about you post up your organic garden & lawn.


----------



## chumy

w_r_ranch said:


> Irrational fear mongering, nothing more nothing less.
> 
> *I've posted up pictures of my gardens/yields & lawn, how about you post up your organic garden & lawn.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Ranch, you bring a lot to these garden threads and i learn a lot from you but every once in ahwile you act like a 6year old. If your wondering and i'm sure your not, i use roundup also.
> Have a good day.


----------



## w_r_ranch

Chumy, all I did was ask for pictures... 

Let him post his pictures & then you can decide for yourself whether you want to buy into this propaganda. Some of the new gardeners here are trying to learn & end up wasting their efforts/hard earned money. Substandard results & failure leads to frustration. Just say'in.


----------



## Mikeyhunts

*opinions*

I take it all in!!!!!!!!
Thats what I have always learned.
Sooooooo many people have different but successful ways of doing things. Thats why I am here. I try to take all the best practices of what I see and develop my own strategies.
Thats the only way I know to do it.
I do know that the 100% organic is harder, and the bugs eat my lunch if I don't use pesticides.
Butâ€¦â€¦I do use LOTS of compost, and good fertilizer like Microlife.
So again, a combination of many disciplines.
Butâ€¦â€¦â€¦I tend to run down the middle and do my own thing in most things in my life.


----------



## aggie13_03

That Roundup article does seem very biased and doesn't actually show any relevant data. It also seems more directed at the use on Roundup Ready crops, not the use prior to planting which what the OP is asking about.


----------



## mas360

w_r_ranch said:


> Chumy, all I did was ask for pictures...
> 
> Let him post his pictures & then you can decide for yourself whether you want to buy into this propaganda. Some of the new gardeners here are trying to learn & end up wasting their efforts/hard earned money. Substandard results & failure leads to frustration. Just say'in.


There is not a shred of doubts gardening with chemicals produce a heck lot greener pasture and much higher yield when harvest time comes. A look at the price of organic veggies versus non-organic counterpart at local groceries speaks volume. However, even as of today I doubt scientists are able to positively conclude that herbicides are not harmful to consumers. Given the high rate of cancers in the USA, one cannot help wonder how much of that is the result of herbicides.

With that said, my raised bed is made out of treated lumber......:spineyes:
But I lined it with 5mm plastic sheet to separate possible leakages of toxicity into the end products. I do not use Roundup in veggie bed even though the label says its life is only 7 days after application because once upon a time DDT was also labeled as healthy for direct spray on people.


----------



## Rubberback

mas360 said:


> There is not a shred of doubts gardening with chemicals produce a heck lot greener pasture and much higher yield when harvest time comes. A look at the price of organic veggies versus non-organic counterpart at local groceries speaks volume. However, even as of today I doubt scientists are able to positively conclude that herbicides are not harmful to consumers. Given the high rate of cancers in the USA, one cannot help wonder how much of that is the result of herbicides.
> 
> With that said, my raised bed is made out of treated lumber......:spineyes:
> But I lined it with 5mm plastic sheet to separate possible leakages of toxicity into the end products. I do not use Roundup in veggie bed even though the label says its life is only 7 days after application because once upon a time DDT was also labeled as healthy for direct spray on people.


I personally just pull all the weeds out of my gardens. If someone wants to use roundup have at it. I have chickens & sell eggs & veggies. I'm not organic I'm farm fresh & tell my customers that I don't use chemicals.


----------



## G-O-T-B

i use roundup a few weeks before i plant and start with a clean slate with no weeds after that i use my hands or a hoe.


----------



## w_r_ranch

mas360 said:


> I doubt scientists are able to positively conclude that herbicides are not harmful to consumers. Given the high rate of cancers in the USA, one cannot help wonder how much of that is the result of herbicides.


Just curious, on what scientific data do you base your above statement???

BTW, have you ever read the 'ingredients' of the prepared food you & your family eats (bet you can't even pronounce some of them), LOL!!!



mas360 said:


> once upon a time DDT was also labeled as healthy for direct spray on people.


Why try to drag DDT into this??? You are aware that once upon a time, malaria killed millions of people (far more than world wars have). The fact is, DDT was safer that the arsenic based insecticides that it replaced & is still in use in many countries today (based on the recommendations of the WHO).

Given the choice, what would you rather die of, malaria in a year or the possible side effects of DDT some time down the road???


----------



## Rubberback

I read the OP is 70 if he wants to use RU use it or hire someone to pull your weeds. I helped my paw with his small garden for years & learned from him. That was my pay. Wish he was still around because I'd help him in a heart beat.I'm glad to hear that the OP still wants to raise veggies. Right on my hats off to you. Hope you have a great success this spring.


----------



## w_r_ranch

What B.D. specifically asked is if it was OK to "just kill it all with roundup and wait a few weeks and then put the tiller to it"... which is what I have done for years as I stated. 

The 'organic crowd' have an issue with that or want to do something different, more power to them. Let them post up their garden pictures & challenge others to some kind of 'throw-down' if they are so inclined. I'm game.


----------



## mas360

w_r_ranch said:


> BTW, have you ever read the 'ingredients' of the prepared food you & your family eats (bet you can't even pronounce some of them), LOL!!!


I avoid processed foods and sodas as much as I avoid roundup. That is also another reason I prefer game meat, free range chicken over corporation-farm raised unless it comes from family farm.


----------



## Johnny9

I am old fashion and own a hoe to get rid of weeds after I till. Only use pesticides for bugs and worms.


----------



## goatchze

Muddskipper said:


> There is all kind of new studies coming out on reasons not to use round up
> 
> Here is one article
> http://www.dirtdoctor.com/organic/garden/view_org_research/id/183/
> 
> It's a poison ... And I can't stand by and let you not read it...


The fact that the "Abstract" ends with this tells me I shouldn't bother reading the article:

Note: Monsanto, Roundupâ€™s manufacturer, is the same company that has been using a corrupt judicial system to bankrupt farmers who won't use their seeds. For more on this important topic, click here.

Mikey, I think what you're trying to described is Integrated Pest Management. It should always be part of herbicide application.


----------



## chumy

Here's something nobody can argue with.
In the past 50yrs, approx 50K-75K new chemicals have been introduced. Roughly 1500 are introduced every year.

In the next ?? years, some of these off the shelf chemicals we use daily will be banned. Whether you agree with the EPA or not, most of these bans will not make much sense to us non tree huggers such as myself, but some will as we learn more.


So, armed with my compost pile, garrett juice, and a sharp hoe, i go about my garending business as best as i can. But if that pesky point ivy root raises it's head, out comes the full strength super consentrate Roundup!!! 

This is just how i role.


----------



## goatchze

chumy said:


> Here's something nobody can argue with.
> In the past 50yrs, approx 50K-75K new chemicals have been introduced. Roughly 1500 are introduced every year.
> 
> In the next ?? years, some of these off the shelf chemicals we use daily will be banned. Whether you agree with the EPA or not, most of these bans will not make much sense to us non tree huggers such as myself, but some will as we learn more.
> 
> So, armed with my compost pile, garrett juice, and a sharp hoe, i go about my garending business as best as i can. But if that pesky point ivy root raises it's head, out comes the full strength super consentrate Roundup!!!
> 
> This is just how i role.


And it's how you should roll. That's IPM in a nutshell. If it make sense to use the herbicide, you do so. If there is a means, such as a raised bed or mechanically removing weeds, to prevent you from needing to use as much, you do that.

An example of IPM is as simple as maintaining a healthy, fertilized lawn to choke out weeds. This reduces your need for herbicides. That said, you may still end up with henbit, nutsedge, etc. before your lawn greens up in the spring. So you may use a preemergent, a selective herbicide, or even round up if your lawn is fully dormant.

But you won't have to use it all year, or in the volumes you otherwise would need if you were simply controlling the weeds by chemical means.

Another example is keeping St. Augustine lawns watered to reduce chinch bug infestation. You've still got the pesticide to knock out those chinch bugs that might still appear, but if you're doing the other things right, you won't need as much bug killer.

IPM seems to be the things that "anti chemical" folks don't seem to understand. It always seems that they assume those who use pesticides do so out of laziness or wanton disregard for the environment. In reality, pesticides are a tool in the toolkit that do things that other methods won't do or they do the job much, much better than the other methods. Still, those other methods can help the pesticides do a _better _job in _smaller _volumes.

Pesticides are just a piece of the puzzle and a great tool to have.


----------



## Muddskipper

Goatchz
You make some good points
Here is what I personally believe and I will use a product that gets shoved down our throats

Scott's weed and feed

Both radio host Randy Lemmon (synethict fertilizer guy)
& Howard Garrett (organic guy) 
agree its bad for our lawns
Note: this is one of two things they actually agree on

No one takes the time to read the label that it will kill tress and bushes
But it gets shoved down our throats by marketing companies and is still the number one seller
I heard and advertiser for it just 30 minutes ago on sale at Home Depot 

We have so many great options now, that have less of a foot print on our environment

The fact that some believe round up is gone in a few weeks is ridiculas 
There might be a lab that says it has acceptable levels in a few weeks but I cannot believe we take their word on it when they are trying to sell you something

No one wants weeds in their garden, but no one wants to cause unintended harm either

There are better ways of doing things now days and we are merely trying to share some of that information 

Sharing is what makes this forum great.... And not everyone does it the same


----------



## Rubberback

Here's how I'm gonna do my maters this year.


----------



## Rubberback

Forgot the pic; This was last year but I'm doing it again.


----------



## goatchze

Muddskipper said:


> Goatchz
> You make some good points
> Here is what I personally believe and I will use a product that gets shoved down our throats
> 
> Scott's weed and feed
> 
> Both radio host Randy Lemmon (synethict fertilizer guy)
> & Howard Garrett (organic guy)
> agree its bad for our lawns
> Note: this is one of two things they actually agree on
> 
> No one takes the time to read the label that it will kill tress and bushes
> But it gets shoved down our throats by marketing companies and is still the number one seller
> I heard and advertiser for it just 30 minutes ago on sale at Home Depot
> 
> We have so many great options now, that have less of a foot print on our environment
> 
> The fact that some believe round up is gone in a few weeks is ridiculas
> There might be a lab that says it has acceptable levels in a few weeks but I cannot believe we take their word on it when they are trying to sell you something
> 
> No one wants weeds in their garden, but no one wants to cause unintended harm either
> 
> There are better ways of doing things now days and we are merely trying to share some of that information
> 
> Sharing is what makes this forum great.... And not everyone does it the same


Now wait, are we talking about glyphosates or are we talking about products that confuse two distinctly different jobs (applying 2,4D and fertilizing)? The example you gave is exactly what IPM says _not_ to do.

Fertilizing and applying pesticides are two different things, and each are done in response to different situations. Applying weed and feed as a "fertilizer" is poor pest management, plain and simple, as is not following label instructions on any pesticide application (the latter is also against the law). Most intelligent people would agree with this.

But just because "many people", as you say, don't bother to read the label means we should avoid chemical products altogether? That's the sort of reasoning that makes it impossible to buy a decent gas can anymore.


----------



## w_r_ranch

But, but, but... deflect, change direction or cut & run until the ruckus dies down before resuming with the activist newsletters.

I'm still waiting for him to post his lawn & garden pictures, LOL!!!


----------



## Rubberback

I'll probably get in trouble here but who wants to eat posion if you don't have too. I know that I eat stuff from the store thats polluted. But thats why I try & grow farm fresh. No chemicals. Is it a challenge you bet but I love knowing its farm fresh & I grew it. If it means pulling weeds so be it. I'll sit in the dirt & start yanking the weeds out.


----------



## w_r_ranch

RB, nobody is eating 'poison'. Roundup is inert after a given time period. Every pesticide & herbicide has a data sheet that spells it out (as well as the application rates), all anyone has to do is read & follow it. The same goes for every vaccine given to cattle (holdback period)... it just needs to be read & followed.

Heck even a frozen turkey has instructions on it in this country, yet some people still 'forget' to remove the giblets and/or cook it improperly. Go figure.

As I've said numerous times before, many principles of organic gardening were common sense long before the craze hit in the 70's & we all use them to some extent, while others are just manure. Pseudoscience at best, pushed by the the anti-Monsanto type crowd. These same quacks are usually trying to peddle their own brand of organic snake-oil to gullible people telling them _"it's better for you, your children & the planet"_... it just how they make their money... but it doesn't make it true without *verifiable *scientific data to back it up.


----------



## T_rout

This argument is cracking me up!!! There is no such thing as organic unless you grow your own chickens and collect your own compost from, un fertilized, tree leaves. You can go back and find a synthetic product in almost every circumstance. Even "organic" farms have a percentage of synthetic material they can use and still qualify to be labeled "organic"!! Like I said, unless you feed your chickens in fertilized grain and use their manure or other organic matter as fertilizer you are not truly "organic".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rubberback

w_r_ranch said:


> RB, nobody is eating 'poison'. Roundup is inert after a given time period. Every pesticide & herbicide has a data sheet that spells it out (as well as the application rates), all anyone has to do is read & follow it. The same goes for every vaccine given to cattle (holdback period)... it just needs to be read & followed.
> 
> Heck even a frozen turkey has instructions on it in this country, yet some people still 'forget' to remove the giblets and/or cook it improperly. Go figure.
> 
> As I've said numerous times before, many principles of organic gardening were common sense long before the craze hit in the 70's & we all use them to some extent, while others are just manure. Pseudoscience at best, pushed by the the anti-Monsanto type crowd. These same quacks are usually trying to peddle their own brand of organic snake-oil to gullible people telling them _"it's better for you, your children & the planet"_... it just how they make their money... but it doesn't make it true without *verifiable *scientific data to back it up.


I'll admit I know absolutely nothing about RU.


----------



## Rubberback

T_rout said:


> This argument is cracking me up!!! There is no such thing as organic unless you grow your own chickens and collect your own compost from, un fertilized, tree leaves. You can go back and find a synthetic product in almost every circumstance. Even "organic" farms have a percentage of synthetic material they can use and still qualify to be labeled "organic"!! Like I said, unless you feed your chickens in fertilized grain and use their manure or other organic matter as fertilizer you are not truly "organic".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I stay far away from ever using this word ORGANIC. I use Farm Fresh.


----------



## shoalnuff

w_r_ranch said:


> I have always sprayed with 'roundup' prior to planting. I still have to weed, but I always start with a clean slate.


About how long do you wait to plant after you spray, a week, two?


----------



## westexas

How about this old school method?


----------

