# Lion killed on our ranch



## golden acres (Nov 17, 2005)

would anyone like this lion to mount for there hunting camp, the guy that shot it does not want it. let me know....


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## Soapeddler (Jun 18, 2006)

I'll get back to you. I know someone who may want it.


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## jrshuman (May 25, 2007)

Ill take it


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## Hotrod (Oct 11, 2006)

I'll take it asap. Joey 281-960-2350


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## deerdude2000 (Feb 17, 2006)

*Lion*

What part of texas did yall kill him in? i'v seen them on my ranch in Freer Tx.??


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## Pocboy (Aug 12, 2004)

I was wondering....nah, I'll wait for someone else.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

Pocboy said:


> I was wondering....nah, I'll wait for someone else.


hey look what i shot, whatcha gonna do with it, i dunno , you want it......


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## rooney (Dec 14, 2007)

What a waste of a beautiful animal.


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

Do you know anything about the ranch or the circumstances surrounding the killing of the lion??? My guess is you don't..There are numerous reasons why a ranch owner would want this animal taken off his property..stick to ttmb if you can't handle it..Walker


rooney said:


> What a waste of a beautiful animal.


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## TX CHICKEN (Jun 4, 2004)

Congrats on taking out the bambi kller and last time I checked the title of this board was HUNTING BOARD--if it is a legal harvest then why can't you keep the PETA PATROL comments to yourself!


rooney said:


> What a waste of a beautiful animal.


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

rooney said:


> What a waste of a beautiful animal.


I'll bite....

Who care's if he doesn't want it... at least he is giving someone a change to mount it for display and not wasting it. It was a detriment to the RANCH, just like any other predator.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

pretty good idea that dozens of illegals and future 160 class bucks were killed by that cat, thanks again , hope he gets the mate, there could be others .


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Nice cat, good kill. They aren't protected animals so you bleeding hearts get after the Spotted Owl and Bald Eagle killers.


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

LMAO!! People seem to be a bit testy in the Hunting forum these days. Guys, there is 5 months until hunting season. I think some of you need to take a really deep breath or book and exotic hunt ASAP.


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## Leemo (Nov 16, 2006)

TXPalerider said:


> LMAO!! People seem to be a bit testy in the Hunting forum these days. Guys, there is 5 months until hunting season. I think some of you need to take a really deep breath or book and exotic hunt ASAP.


5 months, that's why I'm gonna take my frustrations out on some "Frogs" Friday night....... and deep fried frog legs, and backs Sat. night, and cold Budlight!!


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## Swampus (Sep 1, 2005)

TXPalerider said:


> Guys, there is 5 months until hunting season.
> 
> Not if you hunt Exotics....................................and cats! Ha! "Let's GET IT ON!" "here kitty kitty kitty" couldn't help myself! Gonna make a good mount--is he sellin' it? Free??
> 
> swamp w/.02!


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## golden acres (Nov 17, 2005)

hey hey guys, slow down i'ts legal to shoot them and they kill more big bucks after the rut than anything, I did not shoot it a guy on the ranch did but he did not want it, I did not shoot it so I am not going to spend 2k to mount it. so I was thinking that someone might want it. the cat is gone someone did want it.. thanks, if peta want to something try getting the cats on my street to quit scratching up the hood of my truck.......people need to keep there cats inside......... that my vent for the day.........


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## golden acres (Nov 17, 2005)

tell them swampus>>>>>>>>


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

Leemo said:


> 5 months, that's why I'm gonna take my frustrations out on some "Frogs" Friday night....... and deep fried frog legs, and backs Sat. night, and cold Budlight!!


Oh man, you're killing me!! I love frog legs and it's been WAY to long since I last went giggin'. Did it all the time as a kid.

Good Luck! I hope y'all get a bunch!!


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Leemo said:


> 5 months, that's why I'm gonna take my frustrations out on some "Frogs" Friday night....... and deep fried frog legs, and backs Sat. night, and cold Budlight!!


I hope you are going to leave some of the breeders for next year... :rotfl: :rotfl:


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## spitfire (Jan 2, 2007)

*Frog Legs*

Does anyone know where I can buy some fresh frog legs to cook?


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## Swampus (Sep 1, 2005)

I just hope they are free range frogs.....................................................


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

spitfire said:


> Does anyone know where I can buy some fresh frog legs to cook?


viet markets sell them...


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## explorer05 (Jun 22, 2006)

Legal harvest or not, the idea of killing something just to kill it and not do something with it is just pitiful. This comment has nothing to do with PETA PATROL or anyting else but good conservation. I can hunt with the best of you, but I don't kill anyting I don't have a plan for. I agree with Rooney, what a waste of a beautiful animal.


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## Ckill (Mar 9, 2007)

I'm sure from your city view it makes sense for you but a real ranch does not work like that, sorry but it sounds like you have no clue. If I saw that on my land I would not have to think about what to do....we are the top of the food chain we win.



explorer05 said:


> Legal harvest or not, the idea of killing something just to kill it and not do something with it is just pitiful. This comment has nothing to do with PETA PATROL or anyting else but good conservation. I can hunt with the best of you, but I don't kill anyting I don't have a plan for. I agree with Rooney, what a waste of a beautiful animal.


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## RogerB (Oct 11, 2005)

explorer05 said:


> Legal harvest or not, the idea of killing something just to kill it and not do something with it is just pitiful. This comment has nothing to do with PETA PATROL or anyting else but good conservation. I can hunt with the best of you, but I don't kill anyting I don't have a plan for. I agree with Rooney, what a waste of a beautiful animal.


I guess I missed something, I didn't see anywhere in this thread that the cat was killed "just to kill it". These cats are becoming a major problem in some areas of Texas killing both game and livestock (not to mention the family pet). I haven't found a ranch owner or lease manager yet that said "leave 'em alone". This thread (appears to me anyway) as an attempt to find someone who wants the animal rather than throw it in the dump (which does happen on some ranches that take these cats). I see nothing wrong with that, and if the warden (my beautiful wife of 40 years) would tell me where she hid the check book it would have already been claimed. Congrats on the successful kill and I hope someone does take this animal and mount it.


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## pabloag (Jan 13, 2007)

explorer05 said:


> Legal harvest or not, the idea of killing something just to kill it and not do something with it is just pitiful. This comment has nothing to do with PETA PATROL or anyting else but good conservation. I can hunt with the best of you, but I don't kill anyting I don't have a plan for. I agree with Rooney, what a waste of a beautiful animal.


What part of this predator ("beautiful animal") taking down deer and cattle (calves) do you and Rooney not understand? WOW....... It was killed for a reason. Guess what the reason was??????

It was taken down on a ranch not a zoo . . . .


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## big john o (Aug 12, 2005)

spitfire said:


> Does anyone know where I can buy some fresh frog legs to cook?


BBQ cat legs are pretty tasty to


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## Pocboy (Aug 12, 2004)

Big john, there is a joke there but I just can't....


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

cape it and get a wall rug made

euro mount the skull on a base

can't be that much


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## JohnHumbert (May 21, 2004)

*My $0.02*

Let me chime in here..

First, these animals are extremely rare - don't care what anyone else says. It is a shame to kill such a rare animal. That being said, there are certainly times where it is neccessary - I can think of several cases where big cats are killed in Africa - where they ARE protected - because of safety reasons.

Each animal is different, and some animals present a problem when they develop patterns on feeding on livestock or humans. In some of these cases, relocation won't resolve the problem and culling is the only answer.

On the other hand, I find it amusing that someone would bring up the effect these animals have on deer populations. For people who are supposed to be in the know, they are way off base. First, tens of thousands of deer die each year in Texas due to "natural" factors other than predation. The few that are killed by predators is of no significance to the deer herds - none, zip, zero, nada. This is further born out that predators, such as big cats, rarely take mature, healthy bucks. A vast majority of the small number of kills are fawns, does, or sick/weak animals. From what I've learned, even a deer-oriented puma might only kill 5 or 6 deer a year - they feed more on smaller game.

Of course, if you are managing a trophy deer herd/lease - and you actually believe that a cat is stalking trophy bucks - I understand you might feel differently, but I hope you would explore other solutions and make sure you have your information correct.

As far as working ranches - I know them - and in some cases and areas predation on cattle, calves mostly does indeed present a problem from time to time. It is rarely worth the time and effort to trap and relocate these animals - so culling is still a valid choice. Although, to be honest, I have known very, very few cases where livestock was the primary issue. Far more common - in my experience - has been issues with pets or things like chickens or smaller domesticated animals. But that's just my experience.

In conclusion, from my point of view - it is a shame that a rare apex predator is killed - but without knowing the particular circumstances I would be not so quick to judge. Ranchers have their point of view which is perfectly valid for them, as due hunters - and even tree huggers. I am, however, against targeting these predators for simply "sport" hunting, and I - personally - feel this way about most of the larger cats. On the other hand, if an animal needs to be harvested - I would consider it a very rare and exceptional opportunity hunt them.

That's where I stand on this issue.


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## JD761 (Jun 7, 2006)

This shat has gotten beyond ridiculous! Can't even post up reports on this forum, without them getting torn apart. Plenty of people that have no business in this forum...If you can't handle pics of a legal kill, then go join PETA!


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## deadeye68 (Jan 19, 2007)

Well he did get one thing right. That is or was a beautiful animal. Too bad tunnel vision got in the way of seeing this animal for what it is, a predator!!! It is a meat eater, and is not too picky about what its kill might be. If it's young,old,or sickly it's on the menu.
Golden Acres, my hat is off to you sir, offering 2cool this lion was a fine jesture.


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## kurt68 (May 21, 2004)

Wow, a cat that kills people is taken out and the tree huggers cry. How many stories are in the news about mountain lions eating kids or stalking them. Oh it only happens in California. It's legal, so ****.


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## RogerB (Oct 11, 2005)

JohnHumbert said:


> Let me chime in here..
> 
> First, these animals are extremely rare - don't care what anyone else says.
> 
> ...


not going to get into a "he said - you said" about this. Suffice to say that your comments about mountain lions being "extremely rare" is based on your supposition only. Rare, endangered animals in Texas are protected. This cat is not protected. And again, depending on what part of Texas they've become a problem. THAT information comes from game wardens themselves (many of whom I've spoken to over the years). 
see the following as one example of reports filed about mountain lion predation in Texas, as well as the average diet of mountain lions.
http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html
and this from a report in the Dallas Morning News


> TP&W officials do not attempt to count mountain lions, which are very secretive animals. Texas A&M did perform a DNA analysis on samples taken from 89 lions in West and South Texas and fed the results to a computer, which estimated 5,600 breeding animals were involved in that DNA sample. Young suspects that number could be on the conservative side.


Your comments regarding the number of kills caused by big cats is debateable to say the least, numerous reports exist indicating a larger harvest than 5 or 6 a year.

This lion was taken LEGALLY, within the laws of Texas and for reasons already expressed. I find no fault with that and no disagreement with it.


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## StevePage (Aug 1, 2006)

Not shooting this animal because it is rare is BS, 200 class bucks are more rare, but I bet these whiners would love to shoot one. If its a legal animal to kill, its NOT RARE or it would be endangered. Now if this was one of those rare VEGITARIAN cats, I could see your point, but it may try to eat the tree your hugging/humping.



I would have skinned it and ate it, lol. How many chances in your life would you ever get to eat Mountail Lion backstrap


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Somebody would have paid to shoot that cat*

In the Cabelas Outdoors Adventures catalog, mountain lion hunts go for $5,000. One thing to love about Africa is that there are still big cats around....you can shoot them but they are carefully counted and it is pricey. Wherever that mountain lion lived was wild country....not sure now.


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

So I guess you've never shot a coyote before ??



explorer05 said:


> Legal harvest or not, the idea of killing something just to kill it and not do something with it is just pitiful.


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## JohnHumbert (May 21, 2004)

*RogerB...*

...thank you for the information. I stand corrected. Apparently pumas are way more numerous than I had thought - but still you must admit - even if there were 10,000 big cats in TX, or even 30,000 - that pales in comparision to deer, which probably run into the millions.

Let me be more precise - while not being rare in actual numbers - they are a rare occurance with humans. While these reports of attacks seem a like a lot, and a major problem - the data is over decades and many states - which still supports my position that "problem" animals are rare, isolated events. But I will concede that there are areas in the country where big cats could be a problem.

Also, I stand corrected on the number of kills. At 8-10 pounds of meat per day, that's pretty substantial and would indeed require several kills a month. I see that I am wrong in that regard.

Furthermore, I don't see anything wrong with this kill and am not complaining or whining about it. My point is that sometimes a kill is neccessary and the right thing to do. And, yes, I would jump at the chance to take an animal under these circumstances. However - for me personally - and that's just me and my opinion - don't think I could hunt one just for sport. But others feel differently and that's OK with me.

Again, thank you for the information and I certainly know a little more now.


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

I'll say it again....


TXPalerider said:


> ........ Guys, there is 5 months until hunting season. I think some of you need to take a really deep breath or book and exotic hunt ASAP.


Also, there is nothing wrong with spirited debate, however, please keep it civil. Otherwise, you might here those familiar words, "Clean up on aisle 5!!" 

Carry on.


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## StevePage (Aug 1, 2006)

I don't hunt for predators either, In all my hunting through the years I've killed 1-2, I shot a badger once and I don't think those are predators are they? I have killed a few coyotes. But I will shoot one if I get the chance, I would like to have a bobcat and if I was lucky enough a mountain lion, but I'm not hunting for them.

I looked it up also, the 8-10 pounds of meat that a mountain lion eats is fresh meat, from what I read everytime they eat it is another kill and that makes alot of dead animals.


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## RogerB (Oct 11, 2005)

my pleasure. Wasn't trying to be argumentative. I know the big cats stir a lot of emotions in people and for me they are beautiful animals for sure. Having said that, I've taken part in several big cat hunts in years past to remove them from ranches where they became a problem (unfortunately never was successful harvesting one though).

I didn't mean to imply or insinuate any disrespect about your original post I just wanted to provide some information. As recently as this past year, big cats have been seen in San Antonio (population over 1milllion people) in several city and state run parks. Their range is expanding and their population increasing, and that's unfortunate. Like all of nature, harvesting any wildlife needs to be done based on sound reasoning and not just wanton slaughter.


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

JohnHumbert said:


> ...thank you for the information. I stand corrected. Apparently pumas are way more numerous than I had thought - but still you must admit - even if there were 10,000 big cats in TX, or even 30,000 - that pales in comparision to deer, which probably run into the millions.
> 
> Let me be more precise - while not being rare in actual numbers - they are a rare occurance with humans. While these reports of attacks seem a like a lot, and a major problem - the data is over decades and many states - which still supports my position that "problem" animals are rare, isolated events. But I will concede that there are areas in the country where big cats could be a problem.
> 
> ...


Thanks John for a quality response.


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## Roby (Jul 12, 2005)

I have seen two mountain lions in 20 yrs. of hunting in McMullen county. I didn't shoot either one. Not something I saw with enough frequency to consider shooting. I was deer hunting. Most of the guys I hunt with would not have hesitated to pop them. If them there predators are taking all the deer, you might want to consider shooting the guy in the stand across the fence by golly, or shoot them cars going thru the hill country, gee wiz. Oh yeah, I have shot my share of coyotes. To each his own......


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## pacontender (Jun 26, 2004)

The Los Cazadores magazine from two seasons ago had a great article written by our bioligist Jim Hillje on his lion research. If you can find one, it is very informative.


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## RogerB (Oct 11, 2005)

TXPalerider said:


> Thanks John for a quality response.


ditto.


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## Leemo (Nov 16, 2006)

Hunt: the pursuit and killing or capture of wild animals regarded as a sport
Hunting: the activity or sport of pursuing game

nice cat, I can't judge, and I don't want to be judged.............


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

*You're Kidding Right?*



rooney said:


> What a waste of a beautiful animal.


Either you're kidding or you have no idea why these cats need to be killed. PETA members are not welcomed here.


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## bzrk180 (Jan 7, 2008)

I think people miss the point here in regards to this... I have read many posts where people judge others for what they feel is "ethical hunting." It is clear that everyone has their own "ethics" and there isnt one that is more right than the others. 

By bashing people and telling them to go join PETA because they have a differing point of view than you do not only shows your intollerance of others and their opinion but your ignorance as well and its a sure sign that it is stupidity that quickly follows ignorance.

Killing an animal simply to kill it is (in my opinion) unethical. If the animal is problematic and is a risk to the lives and livelyhood of others then measures should be taken. So a big cat takes down deer after the rut....DUH....its kinda how they survive... So what you are saying is that the animal should be killed for doing what it does naturally and to survive huh? 

People have the right to their opinion and just because someone doesnt agree with that opinion you result to bashing and name calling...How juvenile and childish are you? And those of you who resort to this, you carry guns? WOW!! 

Too bad that no matter where we go, whether its a forum or the local mall, intolerance of other peoples opinions has to result in name calling and labeling. Grow up folks... Opinions are like A**-holes right? We all have them and sometimes they stink but regardless, who are any of us to judge anyone else?

Peace....Brad


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

*Tolerance and Diversity*

Ah....this is now the "tolerance and diversity thread". Not!

Are you like 14? This is a hunting forum. It's LEGAL to kill mountain lions and no one has the right to bash the guy for shooting one.

coom-bye-ahhhh


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## willydavenport (Jun 4, 2004)

I, for one, am glad he killed the cat. I believe that goldenacres does most of his hunting in Mexico. If this was a Mexican cat, I'm glad that it was shot before it came to this country and threatened the jobs of American cats. If we don't do something about these cats BEFORE they cross the river, we run the chance of American bobcats, housecats, and feral cats being forced to learn Spanish in order to receive promotions and the like. Furthermore, I don't think that any of us, as tax paying Americans, want to support these cats while they infiltrate our educational, health care, and social security systems. With our economy possibly slipping into a recession, we need to focus all of our attention on keeping our American cats employed even if it means taking drastic measures to keep our borders secured.


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## Leemo (Nov 16, 2006)

willydavenport said:


> I, for one, am glad he killed the cat. I believe that goldenacres does most of his hunting in Mexico. If this was a Mexican cat, I'm glad that it was shot before it came to this country and threatened the jobs of American cats. If we don't do something about these cats BEFORE they cross the river, we run the chance of American bobcats, housecats, and feral cats being forced to learn Spanish in order to receive promotions and the like. Furthermore, I don't think that any of us, as tax paying Americans, want to support these cats while they infiltrate our educational, health care, and social security systems. With our economy possibly slipping into a recession, we need to focus all of our attention on keeping our American cats employed even if it means taking drastic measures to keep our borders secured.


First laugh I've had all day, thanks..........................


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

*Too Funny*



willydavenport said:


> I, for one, am glad he killed the cat. I believe that goldenacres does most of his hunting in Mexico. If this was a Mexican cat, I'm glad that it was shot before it came to this country and threatened the jobs of American cats. If we don't do something about these cats BEFORE they cross the river, we run the chance of American bobcats, housecats, and feral cats being forced to learn Spanish in order to receive promotions and the like. Furthermore, I don't think that any of us, as tax paying Americans, want to support these cats while they infiltrate our educational, health care, and social security systems. With our economy possibly slipping into a recession, we need to focus all of our attention on keeping our American cats employed even if it means taking drastic measures to keep our borders secured.


Now that's funny!! LMAO!


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## bzrk180 (Jan 7, 2008)

Lezz Go said:


> Ah....this is now the "tolerance and diversity thread". Not!
> 
> Are you like 14? This is a hunting forum. It's LEGAL to kill mountain lions and no one has the right to bash the guy for shooting one.
> 
> coom-bye-ahhhh


LOL!!! Thanks, I think you helped make my point!


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## Pocboy (Aug 12, 2004)

I used to hunt near Comstock and the land we were on had a lot of sheep, which is what that area was known for I guess. There were always bobcats hanging on the fence and signs posted warning about pets and baits for predators. There was a trapper that worked the area and he told us whenever he saw us that we should shoot coyotes, bobcats and mt. lions whenever we saw them. Now I never saw any predators while I was there but I made a dicision that if I saw a lion I would not kill it because they were not my sheep and I would not kill an animal if it did not benefit me personally. Now I think Mt. Lions are beautiful animals and I would not kill one unless it was a direct threat to myself or someone else. Now, does that make me a tree hugger or peta freak? I guess I don't see a problem with someone questioning why this guy killed the lion if he didn't want it. On the other hand, I also agree that hunting is hunting and he had every legal right to kill the animal. Oh well, that's how I feel.


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## rockhound76 (Feb 22, 2007)

I have no position on whether or not the taking of this animal was a "waste". I don't know the rancher or his operation.

I will say, however, in GENERAL (and as a hunter): You kill what you can use or eat or you kill to protect your property (including livestock, duh) or to manage a population. 

Killing for the sake of killing is not hunting and taking a position against it has nothing to do with PETA. 

I repeat: I have no position on the taking of this animal because I don't know WHY it was shot. I can only assume it was for a good reason.


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## parkman14 (Jul 27, 2006)

Hey johnhumbert. I actually have to disagree to the comment a big cat will hardly ever kill a fully mature and healthy buck. truth be told my our biologist told us they kill the big old bucks more than jsut does or fawns. and of the carcasses that were lion kills on our place were all big mature bucks. Two of them I fiound the botom jaw and boht of those deer were 5 1/2 and 6 1/2. Not trying to say your point is wrong. Just saying that is it a pretty common thing for a big cat to take a big buck. That is just my experience and 2 cents.
Cody


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Everyone has the right to make whatever hunting choices they want within the law. His cat, his kill, his decision. You don't want to kill one, then don't. Lord help us if someone ever shoots one of the elusive black panthers.


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## deerdude2000 (Feb 17, 2006)

*lions*



parkman14 said:


> Hey johnhumbert. I actually have to disagree to the comment a big cat will hardly ever kill a fully mature and healthy buck. truth be told my our biologist told us they kill the big old bucks more than jsut does or fawns. and of the carcasses that were lion kills on our place were all big mature bucks. Two of them I fiound the botom jaw and boht of those deer were 5 1/2 and 6 1/2. Not trying to say your point is wrong. Just saying that is it a pretty common thing for a big cat to take a big buck. That is just my experience and 2 cents.
> Cody


Very true hunted in mexico for 20yrs and 90% of the lion kills were big bucks the ranchers around there said it was because the big bucks would turn and fight and lose.


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

Haute Pursuit said:


> Everyone has the right to make whatever hunting choices they want within the law. His cat, his kill, his decision. You don't want to kill one, then don't. Lord help us if someone ever shoots one of the elusive black panthers.


Or a Chupacabra.....


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

mtn lions keep the chupacabras in check, now look what happened................


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## deerdude2000 (Feb 17, 2006)

rockhound76 said:


> I have no position on whether or not the taking of this animal was a "waste". I don't know the rancher or his operation.
> 
> I will say, however, in GENERAL (and as a hunter): You kill what you can use or eat or you kill to protect your property (including livestock, duh) or to manage a population.
> 
> ...


It was killed most likely because a mature lion will kill a deer every 3 days i have seen one on my ranch in freer twice and thats what the game warden told me would wipe a ranch out quick and a high fenced ranch out quicker,I know a lot of ranchers in South Texas and none of them want lions on there ranch.


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## rockhound76 (Feb 22, 2007)

deerdude2000 said:


> It was killed most likely because a mature lion will kill a deer every 3 days i have seen one on my ranch in freer twice and thats what the game warden told me would wipe a ranch out quick and a high fenced ranch out quicker,I know a lot of ranchers in South Texas and none of them want lions on there ranch.


Thanks. That counts as a good reason in my book.


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## golden acres (Nov 17, 2005)

let me say this, that cat was killed in Cotulla, and yes I hunt in mexico on the same ranch for the past 14 years and over the years we have killed more than 6 cats and I have found that the cats kill big bucks, the old mexican cowboy tell me that the does and fawns will run but the bucks will turn and fight them, and the bucks will loose every time. over the years we have found many bucks most of them 160-170 class 5-7 years old, my point is that they kill buck after the rut when the bucks are run down. I have a standing rule to shoot cats on site... no question. I spend alot of money and time to grow big bucks and just when they get to be shooters they get killed by cats.


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