# Predestination or Free Will?



## finkikin

I would love to get ya'lls opinoin on this as it has always kept me thinking. Is it one or the other? 

For example, you know your children very well and also know just about how they will reacted to certain things. That said, lets say you leave a big chocolate cookie on the desk in the hallway KNOWING they will pass it up. And you KNOW they will pick it up. Is this predestination or was it free will that they picked it up. I did this at home and it made me think of this topic.


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## Fish&Chips

Good question. I would say it is free will because there is no way that you would have known without a shadow of a doubt, what the outcome would be. Yes the majority of the time they would probably pick it up, but what if they didn't?


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## Whodathunkit

Mmmm cookies!


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## melvinrod

Sounds like a trap. Put the cookie down son. Free will is what God's gives us which by the way is a great gift but on the other hand its the worst in the case of those perishing because of freewill.


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## atcfisherman

I think one of the most damaging theologies that has come about is Calvinism (predestination) vs Arminianism (free will). If you take the entire bible from front to back and see how it all fits together, then the obvious is both doctrines are there to some degree. But to camp out on one or the other is denying parts of the bible. I say we should not even focus on these two but focus on the entire bible. Jesus never gave His opinion on either of these two doctrines and that's because they are man made and after he ascended. 

But, to look at free will vs predestination, here is my thoughts. 

1. God is in control of everything. But he allows certain things to play out according to free will. If God never gave adam and eve free will, then He would have never known if they truly loved Him. 

Example: if I make my son tell me he loves me, it that real love? It is better to allow my son the choice to love me. Then I would truly know if he does or not. Same with God. He gave Adam and eve the choice to obey Him. 

2. God give his creation free will. Even the animals are allowed to do as they see fit. If God is only "pulling strings" on all of his creation, what joy would He get? Free will allows one to truly know the heart of the other. 

3. God is outside of time and space. Because of this, He can see what has happened, what is happening and what will happen. He knows who is going to accept Him or reject Him because He sees the future. The ones He knows will accept Him he calls "His Elect.". It doesn't mean he forced them to accept him. It means His Holy Spirit "wooed" them and they accepted. he "predestined" them based on what he knows will happen in the future. 

4. If God didn't give his creation a choice, then he would not be a just God because being just is being fair. If someone is born and never hears of God yet dies and goes to hell all because they were "not elected," how just is that? But God desires that all men come to know him as savior. 

I could go on and on as I struggled at one time but after prayers and studies I was led to not adopt either of these doctrines entirely but see that both are equally in the scripture. Again I think we Christians should not pick a doctrinal side on this issue because it causes too much strife between brethren as well as the lost seeing how we argue. 

How are wee to understand God, the creator of everything? We can't even live our lives correctly so maybe we need to focus on helping the lost see salvation rather than debating a man made doctrine. Just my initial thoughts.


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## Fish&Chips

atcfisherman - Amen to that brother. Very well written.


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## Fish Specialist

Both...
First, we have to choose. Jesus doesn't "force" himself on anyone. He will however, continually prompt us by lovingly nudging us toward himself.. 
I remember one time, I was about to do something I shouldn't have been doing.(I did it anyway) and I thought/heard, "The devil tells you to do something and you just go do it!". I was his slave. I didn't even know it. I was a prisoner in my own body....

I always loved God. I always knew who I belonged to. But, (speaking frankly and humbly) let me say, that I didn't want to need Jesus. Much like the Jews I wanted to be good enough on my own. I "believed" but didn't yet put my faith in Christ. Then , one evening I fell to my knees and asked Jesus to save me. I realized I couldn't save myself. Then, without realizing it I asked for the holy spirit. I asked God to "put a fire in my heart that will never go out". Jesus patiently waited for me to be "broken enough" to come to him.
Did I always belong to God? ABSOLUTELY!!!

You have searched me, Lord , and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord , know it completely. You hem me in behind and before, and you lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain. Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? (Psalm 139:1-7 NIV)
Here is what you have to wrap your head around...
Everyone chooses. 
Does God make us and know us completely before we choose??
YES!! And he is loving and patient! 
Praise God!


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## Jiggin Junkie

Man does not have free will.

God's Sovereign Choice
(Genesis 25:19-28; Malachi 1:1-5)
*6*Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: *7*Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. *8*That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. *9*For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. *10*And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; *11*(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls *12*It was said to her, The elder shall serve the younger. *13*As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
*14*What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. *15*For he said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. *16*So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy. *17*For the scripture said to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. *18*Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.


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## Seeker

Choices and then there are consequences.. I like to think of these in this order:

1. Consequences
2. Consequences
3. Consequences

by the time that sets in I loose track of what the choice was. 

Choice comes in many forms. Food, words, sight, feelings the list goes on and on. 

Then, there is accountability... that word (Accountability) should really get your attention..


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## Jiggin Junkie

Food for thought. Jesus' Priestly prayer in John 17.

*John 17:6-12*

New King James Version (NKJV)

*Jesus Prays for His Disciples*

6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received _them,_ and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom *You have given Me, for they are Yours.*10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[a] that they may be one as We _are._ 12 While I was with them in the world,[b]*I kept them in Your name.* *Those whom You gave Me* I have kept;[c]* and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.*


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## atcfisherman

Jiggin Junkie said:


> Man does not have free will.
> 
> So I have some questions for you.
> 
> 1. Is God making you type your response? If not, then you do have free will. If He is making you type, then we are puppets on a string
> 
> 2. Why did God give Adam and Eve the instructions to not eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil unless they had free will to obey Him?
> 
> 3. Why did God say He desires none to perish as in 2 Peter 3:9 if he doesn't give them a choice?
> 
> You see, pulling some scriptures out and building a doctrine on them is a very dangerous place to me. How dare we hide behind the phrase "God's sovereign will" and not see that under His sovereignty He chooses to give us choices? Calvinist followers believe that if God give his creation free will that God is then not sovereign, which is furtherst from the truth. It actually displays God's sovereign will by He choosing to allow His creation a choice.
> 
> God say, "to obey is better than sacrifice.". To obey means you have a choice to obey or disobey.


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## melvinrod

God said to Abraham "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." That is in fact free will on the part of the father of faith.


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## Livininlogs

Lets me try to break it down to Cowboy thinking (for my simple mind lol)

What you did is a small version of Gods creation. We have the free will to live , to love, hate, and act as we will. In this world there are temptations to take us from the Boss up in Heaven. It's our choice to do or not do what is right or wrong. Heck you young guns I'm pushing 60 and can tell you now as I look back on my life Every calamity, train wreck, bad thing happened from choices I made without involving God in my decision. Saying that I can tell you there was always a lesson learned and God always left something good for me from each situation that I might look back and smile but still know My choices caused the problems. The first example is normal life here in the world of man. Choices are to be made; take the cookie don't take the cookie. If you as their father did not set the cookie out there would not be a choice. God allows these choices we grow in his love and can better choose trusting Him more each time. And yep I would have taken the cookie lol Specially if it had pecans in it at least took a bite out of it..

* Romans 2:6-8*

*He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. *


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## finkikin

atcfisherman said:


> Jiggin Junkie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man does not have free will.
> 
> So I have some questions for you.
> 
> 1.* Is God making you type your response? If not, then you do have free will. If He is making you type*, then we are puppets on a string
> 
> You see, pulling some scriptures out and building a doctrine on them is a very dangerous place to me. How dare we hide behind the phrase "God's sovereign will" and not see that under His sovereignty He chooses to give us choices? Calvinist followers believe that if God give his creation free will that God is then not sovereign, which is furtherst from the truth. It actually displays God's sovereign will by He choosing to allow His creation a choice.
> 
> God say, "to obey is better than sacrifice.". To obey means you have a choice to obey or disobey.
> 
> 
> 
> But didn't God already know even before this persons birth that they would type a responce to this thread? See, this is where I get confused with the whole thing.
Click to expand...


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## melvinrod

One Day I was praying about the scripture for in Psalm 139. where its states Everything I would do was written in a book. As I prayed about the kids we minister to at the detention center I asked the Lord about this particular passage "he spoke and said only the good that you would do not the bad things you choose to do. In other words God's plan for us is that we follow His will when we go outside God's will.
Freewill or Gods will your choice .


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## Fish&Chips

finkikin said:


> But didn't God already know even before this persons birth that they would type a responce to this thread? See, this is where I get confused with the whole thing.


That's why I just trust God on some things that I don't fully understand. God says unless we come to him as a child. We must have that childlike faith. Do we really believe what God says? We can try to figure out God and his infinite mind/heart but will we ever? Nope. God is too Glorious, too Magnificent, too Holy, too Majestic, too Awesome to ever be fully understood.

And yes, I do believe that God knows everything.


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## Fish&Chips

Also in the end, will it really matter?


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## Jiggin Junkie

What is God's foreordained will. Whatsoever comes to pass. Did God know Adam would sin. You betcha, He had to foreordain it and also made the plan to escape the punishment from it. God's plan for man was already in motion before He even created Adam and Eve. Like I also said in a post awhile back. We are dead in our tresspasses and sins. dead men don't seek anything. He sought you out and placed a robe on you before you so called accepted Him, because you didn't accept Him. The illustration of Lazarus is of most importance to see here. Did Lazarus have a choice when Jesus called him up out of that grave(remember he is a dead man ). No he did not. When Jesus said come forth. He had no choice but to come forth. Neither do you have a choice, When God rests His Holy Spirit upon you, you will respond. Did you have a choice in which Country you were born, did you pick and choose your family? Did they pick and choose you? Absolutely not may it never be. He chose you from the foundation of the world and set His love upon you and brought you out of the mirey pit and set your foot upon the Rock. Which is Jesus Christ.


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## Fish&Chips

Jiggin Junkie said:


> He sought you out and placed a robe on you before you so called accepted Him, because you didn't accept Him.


Is this a type-o? I don't get it.


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## atcfisherman

Jiggin Junkie,

Would you directly answer these questions?



Jiggin Junkie said:


> Man does not have free will.
> 
> So I have some questions for you.
> 
> 1. Is God making you type your response? If not, then you do have free will. If He is making you type, then we are puppets on a string. YES or NO
> 
> 2. Why did God give Adam and Eve the instructions to not eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil unless they had free will to obey Him?
> 
> 3. Why did God say He desires none to perish as in 2 Peter 3:9 if he doesn't give them a choice?
> 
> You see, pulling some scriptures out and building a doctrine on them is a very dangerous place to me. How dare we hide behind the phrase "God's sovereign will" and not see that under His sovereignty He chooses to give us choices? Calvinist followers believe that if God give his creation free will that God is then not sovereign, which is furtherst from the truth. It actually displays God's sovereign will by He choosing to allow His creation a choice.
> 
> God say, "to obey is better than sacrifice.". To obey means you have a choice to obey or disobey.


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## Livininlogs

Something we must all understand Somethings will never be clear or understandable till we are standing before the father and ask him.


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## grassman

Romans 9

Some have been elected for wrath...

14 What shall we say then? _Is there_ unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "*I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."**[*f] 16 So then _it is_ not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "*For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."**[**g**]**18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.*
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed _it_, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?


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## WillieT

Man was given free will. There is no predestination.


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## grassman

There is to much scripture that explains election to deny it. Just read my above entry from Romans. How can you explain the pharaoh or Jacob and Esau?


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## atcfisherman

grassman said:


> There is to much scripture that explains election to deny it. Just read my above entry from Romans. How can you explain the pharaoh or Jacob and Esau?


There are many more scriptures where God has given his creation choices. So do you choose to ignore them? It is a dangerous place to be when building a theology based on a hand full of scriptures. Doctrine and theology, which Jesus never was concerned about, should be based on the entire bible, not a select group of scriptures.

Also, God said he choose pharaoh to be as he was. It doesn't say he does that for all. God knew how pharaoh was going to turn out based on Pharaohs choices so he used that to show His mighty power.

Calvinist followers fail to truly understand that being a sovereign God doesn't mean the creation is puppets on strings. It means He chooses to allow His creation to have choices. That shows if we truly love Him or not.


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## grassman

Its not that I am building my own doctrine it is simply a good understanding of how God operates. I believe based on scripture that man will not choose God over sin unless God has allowed it. Man will always choose darkness over light unless God first intervenes. This intervention is His predestination that I have been chosen to display His grace. Yes, we have "free will" to do as we choose. We can accept His election and put our faith in Christ or deny it.
It is very arrogant of man to assume that I have any real control over Gods grace. God is in complete control of who will and will not enter His Kingdom.

Take a look at Numbers 16:5. 

Move past "mans will" and take a look at the will of the Father and you will find He has the final word not a corrupt man.

BTW I love discussions like this. Even if we dont all see eye to eye its a great way to dive into scripture.


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## melvinrod

Yes we may not all agree, We do agree on this He is God and we are not! He will bring all things to light on that day when we all will see and be seen.


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## atcfisherman

Grassman, 

I appreciate your views and am glad you are civil. I have debated with many Calvinist who were all very aggressive. I hope my words are not too aggressive either. 

As for grace, I am so thankful that He did offer me, especially knowing how long he has been patient with me and knowing how terrible a sinner I was and am. Grace alone is the mechanism to which God offers salvation to all. Christ was the display of this awesome grace. 

We are actually probably closer too ur doctrines than one might think. The bible says that God "has put eternity in the hearts of all men.". That is why other religions try to seek him. However, since no one is rightenesous, we are blinded to the true salvation, which is only in Christ Jesus. 

So the God uses His Holy Spirit to woo us to repentance. Some accept and some do not. Since God is a triune God outside of time, space & matter, He sees the future at the same time as seeing the past and present. He knows who will accept him and those are he ones He foreknew , predestined and thus are called His elect. 

Hope this clears my muddy water a little. LOL


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## Seeker

Gods electing purpose:

Romans 8

verse 28
And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his *purpose* for them.

verse 29 
For God *knew* his people in *advance*, and he chose them to become like his son, so that his son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

verse 30
And having *chosen* them, he called them to come to him. and having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

Thoughts?

Indeed..


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## atcfisherman

melvinrod said:


> Yes we may not all agree, We do agree on this He is God and we are not! He will bring all things to light on that day when we all will see and be seen.


I am glad I'm not God. I would fail just like I do now and then all of y'all would be mad at me. :--)


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## atcfisherman

Seeker said:


> Gods electing purpose:
> 
> Romans 8
> 
> verse 28
> And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his *purpose* for them.
> 
> verse 29
> For God *knew* his people in *advance*, and he chose them to become like his son, so that his son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
> 
> verse 30
> And having *chosen* them, he called them to come to him. and having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Indeed..


Seeker,

Good verses which help me in my point that God knew who would choose him. The bottom line is we will never know the truth until all is said and done. Good discussions.


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## Seeker

Indeed... Oh the things he has in store for us. *Purpose* and grace.. He calls us not according to works but *purpose*.

Define the word purpose.

*purpose *
noun
*the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists*:

2nd Timothy 1 verse 9.

For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time - to show us by the appearing of Christ Jesus, our Savior.

hmm..Seeker is very humbled..


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## Seeker

The *purpose* is and has been there from all of eternity. As long as there has been God.. there has been, this purpose. "Not" as it comes up now and then.. but throughout eternity.

Eternity, that is a very, very, very long time. In fact, our minds can not even fathom what eternity is or is like. I would say, there is a lot of the plan we just don't know.


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## Seeker

I would tend to say that Gods "Purpose" over rules everything including.. predestination and calling.. I would go as far as saying it just governs everything.. 

Let us run over to a book in the Bible that I hold dear to my heart. The book of Ephesians chapter 1 right about verse nine.

"God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure."

10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ-everything in heaven and on earth.

11 Further more because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.

hmm.. Seeker is even more humbled..


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## Fish&Chips

Very good discussion guys and good job on everybody keeping their cool.

*John 13:35*
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.


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## Reel Time

Fish&Chips said:


> Very good discussion guys and good job on everybody keeping their cool.
> 
> *John 13:35*
> By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.


I agree.


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## finkikin

atcfisherman said:


> Seeker,
> 
> Good verses which help me in my point that *God knew who would choose him.* The bottom line is we will never know the truth until all is said and done. Good discussions.


I am confused about this. I mean, since God is a loving God and wants all the people to follow him, then why would God pick and choose who he knew would choose him? I know there are going to be alot of people in the world who have never heard of God, are they damned for eternity? Or the same goes with people of other religions. Are they damned as well? I know this is off the original topic...


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## grassman

finkikin

This to me is where it can get difficult. You have to remember that we are all headed to hell from the minute we are born since we are born in sin. He is not "sending" us there our sins require it. We are guilty of sin and our sentence is death. Predestination suggests that God has chosen a few to display His wonderful grace. Not all have been chosen to receive grace. 
The bible states that many have been chosen for wrath and who are we (the creation) to argue or disagree with the creator. Just because we think it is harsh or wrong doesnt change the fact that God does what He wants to.
Reading the old testament is a good way to develop a deep understanding of the nature of God. He is not all roses and some may suggest.


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## Fish&Chips

Amen grassman. God is Sovereign. He exercises supreme & permanent authority.


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## Seeker

finkikin said:


> I am confused about this. I mean, since God is a loving God and wants all the people to follow him, then why would God pick and choose who he knew would choose him? I know there are going to be alot of people in the world who have never heard of God, are they damned for eternity? Or the same goes with people of other religions. Are they damned as well? I know this is off the original topic...


Finkikin, the first two chapters of the Book of Romans explains it better than anyone can verbally. I highly recommend a study session on the two chapters for your answers. The answer is there, it is each of our own responsibilities to read and understand what is being taught here. Receiving the answer from the spirit is much better than the flesh's interpretations.


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## atcfisherman

*God is love, just and mercful. For those who haven't heard the name Jesus, they know He exist. Here is some information that I have with scriptures. Christ died for all and God wants all to be saved, yet not all will be saved.*

*Romans 1:18-20 *

*God's Wrath Against Sinful Humanity *
18 The wrath of Godo is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.p 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,q so that people are without excuse.r

*III. The Revelation of God in Nature 19-20*

As these verses make clear, there is a revelation of God in nature that every man sees and knows. It is clear enough so that no one can miss it and universal enough so that no one can claim to be ignorant of it. Nature reveals God in such an unmistakable way that even the most backward pygmy cannot fail to grasp its basic message. Paul basically says three things about the nature of this revelation of God in nature:

*A. This Revelation is Clearly Seen. 19-20*

Verse 19 says it two different times: "Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them." Then verse 20 says it again: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen." There is something about God-a deposit of truth, if you will-which God has made so plain that no one can miss it. When Paul twice says that it is "plain to them," he is referring to the impact on the human conscience. Not only is the revelation clearly seen, but that revelation of God in nature impacts the human conscience. Men know there is a God because their conscience tells them so.

*B. This Revelation is Always Available. 20a*

In verse 20 Paul takes his argument a step farther. This plainly-seen revelation of God in nature has been avail-able "since the creation of the world." That means Adam saw it, Cain saw it, Noah saw it, Abraham saw it, Jacob saw it, Moses saw it, David saw it, and every other person who has ever lived since the beginning of time saw it. Don't miss this point. It has massive implications for the question of whether the people of the world are innocent or guilty before God. Everyone knows something about God! No one has ever lived who missed this revelation. It doesn't matter whether they consciously thought about it or not. The truth was there for all to see, so plainly laid out that no one could miss it. That means it doesn't matter whether you were a headhunter on some South Pacific island or an upscale yuppie in downtown Chicago. No one could miss the truth about God &#8230; and no one has ever missed it because God made the truth about himself as plain as day.

*C. This Revelation is Both Known and Understood. 20b*

Now the noose gets a little tighter. In the second half of verse 20 Paul comments that the truth of God in nature has been "clearly seen, being understood from what has been made." Those two verbs are exceedingly important. "Clearly seen" means that everyone has seen something of God's handiwork in the world. "Understood" is even stronger. It means that the revelation of God in nature strikes the heart of every man. Please understand that Paul is not suggesting that nature contains a revelation about God which every man may see. That's not strong enough. To the contrary, Paul is saying that every man actually sees the revelation and every man actually understands it to some degree. Douglas Moo offers this explanation of the meaning of the Greek word translated "understood":

The reality and basic character of God are known to men because they "perceive" Him through the things He has made. How universal is this perception? The flow of Paul's argument makes any limitation impossible. Those who perceive the attributes of God in creation must be the same as those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and are therefore liable to the wrath of God. (Romans 1-8, pp. 100-101)
The point is clear: Something about God "gets through" to every person. No one can ever say, "I didn't know" or "You didn't make it clear," because God made it abundantly and overwhelmingly clear. To summarize:
1. The truth about God is clearly seen in creation.
2. That truth is available to every person.
3. That truth "gets through" to every person.
That explains why every culture on earth has some conception of a Supreme Being-however flawed it might be. Man was made to look for answers outside of himself. He is incurably religious in that sense. The French philosopher, Pascal, said that inside the heart of every man there is a "God-shaped vacuum." And Augustine said, "Lord, you have made us for yourself. Our hearts are restless until they find rest in you." Ecclesiastes 3:11 says that God has put "eternity in the hearts of men," meaning that the longing for ultimate answers comes from God himself. God put that longing (the "God-shaped vacuum") inside the human heart to cause men to look to him.
That explains why atheism has never commanded the interest of a wide circle of people. Atheism is the most unnatural philosophy on the face of the earth. Idolatry is more natural than atheism because at least the idolator acknowledges a higher power outside of himself. For a man to be an atheist he must not only deny the truth about God that he sees in nature, he must also deliberately and repeatedly suppress the truth about God found in his own conscience. As so many others have said, in the end it takes more faith not to believe in God.
Seventy-five years ago a vast revolution swept across Russia, a revolution founded on the view of Karl Marx that religion was the opium of the masses-a drug to which fools turned because they couldn't face life on their own. For most of this century the communists did all they could to stamp the very idea of God out of public life in Russia. They confiscated the churches, closed the cathedrals, persecuted the pastors, and co-opted the priests. In St. Petersburg they turned the huge Kazan Cathedral into a Museum of Religion and Atheism. Three generations grew up learning that God did not exist and that religion was a blight on the face of the earth. But now the truth can be told. Throughout all their hardships, the Russian people maintained their bedrock faith in God. The true believers never gave up their faith, even in the darkest of hours. I have seen with my own eyes how the people of Russia are turning back to God! Now the schools are open to the preaching of the gospel, now the authorities are inviting Christians to minister in the hospitals and in the prisons. Now so many people want Bibles that it's hard to keep up with the demand.
Communism has fallen to the ash heap of history, but the gospel of Jesus Christ is stronger than ever. Why? How do you explain such a startling turn of events? 1. Atheism utterly failed to win the hearts of the people. Atheism is a negation, a purely negative philosophy of life. It has no power to move the hearts of men. 2. There is a hunger for God inside the human heart. When the communists tried to satisfy that hunger with the empty husk of atheism, it only increased the desire for the bread which comes down from heaven.

*D. This Revelation Consists of Two Facts About God Every Person Knows. 20b*

Only one question remains. Exactly what is it about God that is so clearly revealed in nature that no one can miss it? This is a crucial point in Paul's argument because his answer must apply to every person who ever lived. It must specifically apply to the "heathen" who never hears the gospel message. In answering that question, Paul says that there are two facts about God that every person knows.

1. There is an All-Powerful God Who Created the World.
2. That All-Powerful God is the Supreme Being of the
Universe.
Those two statements are a rough approximation of what Paul means when he mentions God's invisible quali-ties-"his eternal power and divine nature." His "eternal power" is evident in the magnitude and grandeur of creation. His "divine nature" may be seen from the variety and design of the world he made.
Do not miss the central point. You don't need the Bible to see and understand those things. You don't need to go to church to figure this out. You don't need the gospel to know there is a God who is the Supreme Being. These truths are so plainly revealed that the man in Thailand knows them even though no missionary has ever come his way. So does the Muslim student at the University of Illinois. So does the former 60s radical who walks by Calvary Memorial Church three times a week. These truths are so obvious that no one can miss them.


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## WillieT

Again there is no predestination. God created all things, including Adam and Satan, and gave them free will. God did not know that they would disobey, but both chose to do so.

Here is the part of the account in Genesis. Here is what God set before Adam and Eve: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” “And God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.’” (Gen. 1:28; 2:16, 17) Would you encourage your children to undertake a project with a marvelous future, knowing from the start that it was doomed to failure? Would you warn them of harm, while knowing that you had planned everything so that they were sure to come to grief? Is it reasonable, then, to attribute such to God? It just doesn't make sense to say that anything was predetermined.


God's purpose has never changed, even though what has happened since Adam chose to disobey, sidetracked his purpose. He intended Adam and Eve to live forever. He told them they would die if they disobeyed, indicating that if they had obeyed they would live forever. Once Adam disobeyed, God had to institute a plan to get the purpose back on track. 

That was the ransom sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ. A perfect man, Adam, sinned and brought death to all mankind, the ransom of Jesus, also a perfect man, is able to give us life. So eventually his purpose will be fulfilled. God has the power to do whatever is necessary to accomplish his purpose. He makes known his purpose, foreordains certain matters in connection with its accomplishment, and has the almighty power to assure that these will be fulfilled.

It is clear that nothing is preordained. God chose Israel as his "chosen people". When they continually turned their back on him (as a chosen nation), ignored his pleas to repent and obey, and then killed his son Jesus( their free will), he rejected them as a nation. Those that chose (free will) to follow Jesus and his teachings were included in the new covenant. 

Our God is a God of love, he wants all to repent and be saved. 2 Pet. 3:9: “Godis not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness,but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” But not all respond to his patience (free will). 

I could go on and on, but I think you can understand.


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## grassman

Shaggydog

Scripture tells us that is was predertermined for Adam (man) to fall all along so that God could have Jesus offered as a sacrifice. The OT is full of Jesus' foreshadowing. Jesus death was not simply a reaction to the fall of man. This was God's plan from the get go. (1 Peter 1:18-20)

Can you find one passage that uses the term "free will." The term free will would suggest that our will has power of God's will. God's will is dominate over ours, if my will is different than God's who do you think is going to win out? We have the ability to make desiciions as long as we are allowed. If God has a different plan He may allow a short term movement but we are subject to His plans.

If our "free will" can get ultimetly decide if we go to heaven than that would suggest that God could be surprised to see us in heaven. He knows who will join Him there before we are even born, because He predetermined who gets in.


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## WillieT

grassman said:


> Shaggydog
> 
> Scripture tells us that is was predertermined for Adam (man) to fall all along so that God could have Jesus offered as a sacrifice. The OT is full of Jesus' foreshadowing. Jesus death was not simply a reaction to the fall of man. This was God's plan from the get go.
> 
> Can you find one passage that uses the term "free will." The term free will would suggest that our will has power of God's will. God's will is dominate over ours, if my will is different than God's who do you think is going to win out? We have the ability to make desiciions as long as we are allowed. If God has a different plan He may allow a short term movement but we are subject to His plans.
> 
> If our "free will" can get ultimetly decide if we go to heaven than that would suggest that God could be surprised to see us in heaven. He knows who will join Him there before we are even born, because He predetermined who gets in.


God's will does does dominate over the will of man, but to say that it was predetermined that Adam would fall is not even in the realm of possibility. That is NOT the way God works. If you really think so, you are mistaken. I am not here to debate, but to help in understanding the scriptures. I will not debate this point.


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## grassman

No debate here. Just good old fashioned bible study. I personally enjoy learning your points and it helps to reach an even deeper understanding.

Here are my Genesis back up verses

1 Peter 1:18-20 States that the sacrifice was set before the foundation of the earth

Revelation 13:8 says the same thing

There is also another verse I think in Hebrews that add to it. I will look for it and post.

Again, nothing heated here just learning the bible.


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## grassman

Ecclesiastes 6:10 also backs up our weakness to what the potter wants.


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## atcfisherman

Again, let me say that we must take the entire bible from front to back as use it as the sole source. God gave man "free will" if you want to call it that so He would know if man truly loved him. However, since God is outside of time, space and matter, he sees the past, the present and the future all at the same time. In doing this, he saw that Adam & Eve were going to choose wrong, but He still gave them the choice. Since He knew this, He already prepared His son, Jesus Christ, to be the ultimate sacrifice. 

I think we need to step back and see that the following:
1. We will never understand God's thoughts.
2. We see in scripture that God has given His creation choices.
3. We see in scripture that God also foreknew who was going to choose him and thus predestined them for His purpose.

It's like a bowl of vegetable soup. If you take out everything that you don't like and leave say the potatoes, then it isn't vegetable soup any more. That is why we must take all of the scriptures in context. And at the end of the day, we must admit to ourselves that we will never fully understand God's amazing thoughts.

BTW, just because you don't see the actual words "Free Will" in the bible doesn't mean the concept isn't there. It is spread out all throughout the bible. The same could then be said for the "Trinity." You don't see that word there, but it too is spread all throughout the bible.

Anyway, some good points by all. Just remember, we can't fathom God's thoughts and if you are like me, I sometimes wonder why I think the things that I do. LOL I guess if I ever have a stroke someday that it will happen in my dumb portion of my brain. Then I wouldn't know the difference. LOL


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## grassman

If I am taking anything out of context please show me. Anything I post scripture wise is not taken out of context. These particular points follow the whole theme throughout the whole bible.
You are correct though, we can make our own choices, as long as they are part of the master plan.


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## melvinrod

I would like to a this point Say Grace,Grace, and call it a day it seems this thread will only lead further contention among us and to say that one is right and the other wrong is not what this form is for, there has been a lot of scripture quoted on both sides of this issue and just think this issue has been fought over by others and will continue to be long after we are gone. Again He is God and does as He pleases to bring His purpose and plan for salvation of the lost.


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## atcfisherman

grassman said:


> If I am taking anything out of context please show me. Anything I post scripture wise is not taken out of context. These particular points follow the whole theme throughout the whole bible.
> You are correct though, we can make our own choices, as long as they are part of the master plan.


Sorry Grassman,

What I meant is that often people do take certain scriptures out of context to build their doctrines. I was not implying you were. Based on the scriptures you have posted, I see where predestination is understood. My point is we have to weight those with the other scriptures that tell us about choosing, and decisions we make, etc etc.

Like I've said, both doctrines are woven all thoughout the bible. We need to embrace both and trust God with the parts we don't understand.

Now the thing about "free will" mentioned in the bible. No, the actual words are not there. But they are implied all thoughout. We could say the same about the trinity, which that word isn't in the bible but implied all thoughout.

Anyway, I didn't mean to come across that way.


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## Fish&Chips

This guy gives a really good explanation. Start the video at 6:10 to hear about predestination & free will.


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## Jiggin Junkie

Sorry I missed all the fun. Been tied up watching the three grandboys for two days.

Here is an excellent read I found the other day.
Gods grace and mercy will see us through.

http://bibleone.net/print_tbs34.html


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## WillieT

If predestination were even in the realm of possibility I would renounce that I am a Christian. Fortunately it is not in the realm of possibility. If it were it would not matter how I lead my life, the outcome would already be determined. It is in no way shape or form already determined, there is no logic to that reasoning.

And no God did not foresee that Adam and Eve would disobey.


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## grassman

Psalm 139:4

Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, o Lord, you know it all together.

1 Peter 1:18-20

*18 *knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, *19 *but with the precious *blood of Christ*, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. *20 *He was *foreknown before the foundation* of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

What do these versus teach you?


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## WillieT

grassman, So you are saying that the choices that I make (free will) have no effect on my relationship with God. Sorry I will never buy that. Your reasoning on the scriptures is incorrect. The only way to salvation is by understanding what God's requirements for men are, and bringing our lives in harmony with His will. Nothing else makes sense. It seems to me that you are saying it does not matter how we conduct our lives, that our final destination is already determined. Not even remotely possible.

Predestination is beyond imagination. Sorry if you think I am being blunt.


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## Seeker

Jiggin Junkie said:


> Sorry I missed all the fun. Been tied up watching the three grandboys for two days.
> 
> Here is an excellent read I found the other day.
> Gods grace and mercy will see us through.
> 
> http://bibleone.net/print_tbs34.html


Awesome!


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## grassman

No, thats not what I saying. Simply put here is what I am saying:

God knew Adam was going to sin before he did. God knows everything before it happens. He is God.

He also knows who is going to heaven. He isnt surprised.

Yes we are told to "behave" a certain way, to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. God would not have given us guidelines if they did not matter.

I know this doesnt sit well with you. But if you will study scripture that picture will get clearly painted. I for one do not understand everything and would never claim to. But there are things in the bible that alot of pastors stay away from because they do not sit well. When these topics are brought up it can cause alot of displeasure. How can you explain away 1 Peter? Removing all emotion how do you explain it?

How would you answer this question:

Does God know everything before it happens? Is He omnipresent, omnicient, and all of the other omnis?


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## grassman

Ephesians 1
*4 *just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, *5 *having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, *6 *to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


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## melvinrod

Great post great read Jiggin Junkie.


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## atcfisherman

I did not write this, but this is an argument for free will. Now let me say again that I understand from all the scriptures that both free will of man and God's forth knowledge are but true. It's just something that we will never understand until we see Him face to face.

Hebrews 10:26	¶ "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

The word "Wilfully" dissected:

From the Strong's Concordance

The word "wilfully" from the verse quoted above is the translation of the Greek word "hekousiōs"

Meaning:

1) voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord a) to sin wilfully as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness. ~Source

Now why would God warn us about sinning "wilfully" if we have no "free will"? Why that's "illogical"

Here's another usage of that same Greek word for "wilfully" in the new Testament:

1Peter 5:2 "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;"

"Willingly" is the same exact Greek word (hekousiōs) used in Hebrews 10:26

Here's another similar Greek word. "hekōn"

Meaning:

1) unforced, voluntary, willing

2) of one's own will

3) of one's own accord

Scriptural usage:

1 Corinthians 9:17 "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me."

No "Free Will" you say? Hmmm, sounds like false doctrine to me. I have provided three verses in the Bible that refute your no "Free Will" claim. These verses are used in the context of making choices using free will. These verses can not be ignored. I have, at least made a case against no "free will" from the Bible.

Be careful what you say for you can make God to look like He's double minded.

Now it's important to mention that these verses are all being applied in the context of saved men using their free wills. Because Jesus has set us free from the bondage of satan we now can use our free wills to serve God more completely. In other words, God opens the door for us. Doors satan can not close. In God's mercy he does this.

As Paul states,

"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." 1Cor 15:10

Paul states that "the grace" that was "bestowed" upon him "was not in vain." Can we receive grace in vain?

"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." 2 Cor 6:1

Paul used his free will and knowledge of God and the gifts God gave him to labour "more abundantly than they all". Paul states in the Scripture above that "... if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward" 1 Cor 9:17

And we will receive a reward if we labor for God.

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." 1 Cor 3:8

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Gal 6:7

As Jesus also stated,

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Say you are sitting under a tree in total ignorance of the knowledge of God. Not knowing the Lord at all and God has a messenger of His come by that tree and sees you sitting there and he turns and says to you, "Seek God."

Well, then you now know you should "seek God."

And then what does God say?

"But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." Deuteronomy 4:29

"Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore." Psalm 105:4

"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:" Isaiah 55:6

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you". Matthew 6:33

"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Luke 11:9, 10

"God that made the world and all things therein,....hath determined... That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us..." Acts 17:22-31

So God hath determined that all men shall "seek God" So don't go around saying "men can't seek God" that's absolutely untrue.

Then someone may say, "What about this verse?"

"...There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Romans 3:10-12

This is true, it takes God's prompting through preaching His Word or God directly guiding you to His Word like what happened to me. When I needed God most in my life He supernaturally lead me to His Word where I received the inscructions from God on what to do.

This page should bring the Fear of God upon you. The fear of God is wisdom. Job 28:28.

"The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death." Proverbs 14:27

The Fear of the Lord causes you to stay in Him. the fear of God is "love". Because it helps us to keep God's commandments. And God stated that "love" is the keeping of God's commandments. So God gives us the fear of Him because He loves us. Fear is good in some aspects. Fearing God is good. Fearing running out into a busy intersection with fast moving cars is good also. A bad fear is the fear of man.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3

More Verses Showing that We make our own Choices and God responds accordingly
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua 24:15, 21-23
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.

Judges 10:14
Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.

Psalm 25:12
What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

Psalm 119:30
I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.

Psalm 119:173
Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

Proverbs 1:29
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Proverbs 3:31
Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

Proverbs 16:16
How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

Isaiah 56:4
For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Isaiah 65:12
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Isaiah 66:3, 4
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


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## Fish&Chips

So we all agree? Good. Praise the Lord!


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## Topgun95

Atcfisfisherman, this is a great anaolgy of both. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I had my thoughts on it until I read yours, and have agreed with yours!


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## atcfisherman

Topgun95,

Thanks for the kind words. However I am no expert except stumbling often. LOL. Anyway, I enjoy discussing the scriptures with others as it helps me learn. I just want to know Him more and the way is to study His word. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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