# What , no one going to talk about shooting or not shooting spikes ??



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

You mean we are going to make it to the season opener and not have the usual yearly discussion? I had went out and bought some popcorn. Heck.

Charlie


----------



## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

CHARLIE said:


> You mean we are going to make it to the season opener and not have the usual yearly discussion? I had went out and bought some popcorn. Heck.
> 
> Charlie


It depends on whether we are talking behind a high fence or not.


----------



## State_Vet (Oct 10, 2006)

Heck Charlie, I'll bite....

A spike, is a spike, and will always be one, cull'em all

OR

Let'em mature with the proper nutrietion, after 3yrs if still a spike or undesirable cull them.

there let the fun begin:biggrin:


----------



## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

Actually was talking about his very thing with the Pale Dude today. He has been doing lots of research here lately.


----------



## asolde (May 22, 2004)

*SPIKES*

I like shooting spikes







I have a collection of spikes in my gun room. Hunters have been doing it for a long time here in the state of Texas. I don't believe that the deer population has suffered one bit. It is a proven deer management tool. There you go plain and simple.


----------



## Shaky (May 21, 2004)

Spikes make GREAT sausage! lol


----------



## shanegair (Feb 17, 2005)

So, would you shoot this deer?


----------



## Profish00 (May 21, 2004)

Yup, then chicken fry with white gravy.


----------



## texanlegend (Dec 9, 2004)

absolutely........


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Oh yea and have it made into steaks.

TH


----------



## State_Vet (Oct 10, 2006)

Bucksnort said:


> It depends on whether we are talking behind a high fence or not.


Danny....high fence....spike.....


----------



## vvflash04 (Oct 2, 2007)

In January with an empty freezer : You Bet..

No seriously I still look at spikes as a case by case bases , I can't make myself shoot a spike that I am quite certain is 6 months old and just out of spots.
On the other hand 5-6''+ spikes on a 1 1/2 yr.old "Get the cooler".

How do Y'all feel about bucks with no brow tines????


----------



## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

I ground check the ones I don't think will ever mature. So far I'm batting a 1000. None have ever gone on to be a trophy. :wink:


----------



## Hooked Up (May 23, 2004)

"Spikes"! It's what's for dinner. Heck yes! Guy


----------



## tbuckshot (Jul 17, 2005)

*Shoot the spike*

I watched a spike grow to be a really great deer on a large ranch. It affected my judgement for years until my buddy reminded me that if you got all the spikes out of the way, the ones with more points would really have a BETTER chance to make a real trophy. Following his lead, we shot every spike we could on our 400 acre lease and left the bigger bucks to breed. My efforts yielded a 162 score 8x5 buck, plus a 'cull' buck that had a 25 1/4" INSIDE spread the next year (we alternated trophy/cull years). 
Did I mention that you should SHOOT THE SPIKES?


----------



## ruben f. (Nov 28, 2006)

yes, Iwould shoot a spike and am going to look for a nice spike to have jerky made! I like alex's answer about collecting spikes. I might start doing the same.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

OK I got the popcorn going. I know its not over.. Yall remember I showed yall a set of antlers (3 different years) same deer 1st year spike, second year 10 and final 180 class deer. 

Charlie


----------



## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

State_Vet said:


> Danny....high fence....spike.....


I dunno... I only shoot the ones that have bigger nuts than me...


----------



## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

I've always played by the "once a spike, always a spike" 

First deer I shot while hunting by myself was a spike. 9 inch tall daggers he had. He was the first, and last one I have seen though, guess we just dont have to worry about it.


----------



## State_Vet (Oct 10, 2006)

Haute Pursuit said:


> I dunno... I only shoot the ones that have bigger nuts than me...


In Danny's defense...this spike was walking toward us in a threatening posture, he would have been okay, but Danny said he looked like he was reaching for something so his training kicked in


----------



## Shaky (May 21, 2004)

State_Vet said:


> In Danny's defense...this spike was walking toward us in a threatening posture, he would have been okay, but Danny said he looked like he was reaching for something so his training kicked in


Neat trick getting that crossbow bolt to turn completely sideways and go in behind the shoulder! :spineyes:


----------



## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

State_Vet said:


> In Danny's defense...this spike was walking toward us in a threatening posture, he would have been okay, but Danny said he looked like he was reaching for something so his training kicked in


What? The box of donuts. :rotfl:

Sorry Danny I had to.


----------



## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

Profish00 said:


> Yup, then chicken fry with white gravy.


My thoughts exactly....


----------



## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

Too Tall said:


> What? The box of donuts. :rotfl:
> 
> Sorry Danny I had to.


LOL, donut stealing barstard. Won't do that again.


----------



## Nokillbill (Nov 27, 2006)

rememeber that mexican cook in lonesome dove........ill whack that bell if i want to
ILL WHACK THAT SPIKE IF I WANT TO


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Yall keep wacking all those spikes and you will end up with no bucks in your herd

Charlie


----------



## BigBuck (Mar 2, 2005)

*Spikes*

OK, I'll play.

1. I do not believe once a spike always a spike.
Check Kerr Wildlife records, they keep all spikes, all spikes live until they are 7.5 yrs old, a very few become decent deer.
2. I believe most spikes are inferior deer.
3. Some exceptions exist.
4. You should not manage your deer herd for the exceptions.
5. You need to control numbers in every age class, why not remove the ones that more than likely are inferior (antler wise) animals.
6. 6 month old deer do not have spikes, they have pedicles. Do not shoot these deer.
7. Shoot spikes. Young (1.5) old, short, long, whatever.
8. Do not shoot all 1.5 yr old deer, even if they are all spikes, you should have all age classes represented in your herd. If all of your 1.5 yr. old deer are spikes, you probably have some nutritional issues as well as genetic issues.

My .02
BB


----------



## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

I've posted this pic before, these were 18" long, the deer was 5.5 and feild dressed 150 taken 2 miles W of Beaumont. IMO each one needs to be looked at and in this case should have been shot @ 1.5 y/o. Charlie, you think it would have scored better if given a cpl of yrs??...BTW this skull is leaning against a 10lb Bass thats 28" long..WW


----------



## Don Smith (Nov 24, 2007)

I only shoot spikes if they are attacking me and they all have that mean look in their eyes. I just protect myself. Besides they taste just like chiken. Snakes, now that's another matter.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

WW

No sir he needed to go a long time ago.. As you say they are exceptions. Older spike (notice I didnt put an age) need to go. By the way who gave you the bass ?

Charlie


----------



## pg542 (Oct 9, 2006)

wet dreams said:


> I've posted this pic before, these were 18" long, the deer was 5.5 and feild dressed 150 taken 2 miles W of Beaumont. .........BTW this skull is leaning against a 10lb Bass thats 28" long..WW


 ....and it looks like a turkey wants in the photo as well.....comin in from the right. lol.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

they are fun to shoot until your friends find out


----------



## Hooked Up (May 23, 2004)

Haute Pursuit said:


> I dunno... I only shoot the ones that have bigger nuts than me...


Dang Blake. That doesn't leave much for the rest of us!







 H/U


----------



## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

If you decide you are going to shoot spikes on your place , shoot them first thing in the season or have the kiddos do it.

why feed them all season ?

why have them breed your does ?

one of the largest stud bucks was a first year spike by the way, i think his name was Paco.


----------



## "Reddrum" (Dec 15, 2005)

I agree with Big Buck on this one. The Kerr WMA was a good study and interesting read - you might be able to Google it. There are exceptions to every rule but a majority of the time a 1.5 yr old spike doesn't top out very high and on my lease we don't want those genetics to be passed on.

Back in 1998 on my 1600 acre lease we shot every spike we saw - this went on for roughly 3 years. We weren't really covered up in them but we believed this would yield better deer down the road and it has.

Today most of our 1.5 yr olds have 8 points and there are a few 9's and we even spotted a small 10 a couple years ago when we had that rainy spring & summer. Now that I think about it I haven't seen a spike in 2 years. It's not scientific but the results turned out pretty good.

And I agree with shooting your spikes as well as does early instead of feeding them all season.


----------



## SPI-FlatsCatter (Nov 3, 2005)

DING! DING! We have a winner:



> 4. You should not manage your deer herd for the exceptions.


----------



## garrettryan (Oct 11, 2004)

State_Vet said:


> In Danny's defense...this spike was walking toward us in a threatening posture, he would have been okay, but Danny said he looked like he was reaching for something so his training kicked in


I hope you planted a knife on him afterwards..


----------



## kingfish007 (Jul 1, 2005)

Too Tall said:


> I ground check the ones I don't think will ever mature. So far I'm batting a 1000. None have ever gone on to be a trophy. :wink:


Me too! I'm proud of my spike/broken horn collection. Hell, if I kill one and the rack looks too nice, I might just break off a point or two.


----------



## dwhite (Jul 11, 2007)

On the place between pandale and juno we shoot all the ones that are 2.5 plus. This will probably change after we have been on it for a couple of more years and get better nutrition in there for them. The place down by laredo 1.5 plus and they are DRT!


----------



## Fish-a-mon (May 21, 2004)

Where I hunt I get 4 deer no more than two bucks. young deer eat better than older ones. I like the one with spots on them and I ain't talking Axis. Veal venison style. If you want to shoot it then by all means take it.


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Exceptions are the MAIN thing you should manage your deer herd for. You are trying to kill as big a deer possible in most cases. Most people are TRYING to grow trophy deer, not do QDM.

Trophy deer management is exception management.

Some of the best ranches in South Texas that grow BIGGEST deer killed do not shoot spikes. If spikes were a horrible part of the deer herd why would these ranches still have great deer?


----------



## State_Vet (Oct 10, 2006)

garrettryan said:


> I hope you planted a knife on him afterwards..


No need to Danny said it was "justified". I tell you what Danny stuck him, I knifed him, Danny also hit him with a couple of rocks before Brad hit him with the truck....tough critter, he was later found to be part of a major player in the "Uvadle Wildlife Meth Ring". Danny said its not uncommon for spikes to gravitate to the "bad side" of (wild) Life due to their inferior racks


----------



## "Reddrum" (Dec 15, 2005)

I can see south Texas going against the grain given the odd chance that a spike "could" grow into an $8-12K asset.

For those that are interested here's the link to the Kerr study - good science and a very interesting read.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwil...agement/kerr_wma/research/antlered_yearlings/


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

"Reddrum" said:


> I can see south Texas going against the grain given the odd chance that a spike "could" grow into an $8-12K asset.
> 
> For those that are interested here's the link to the Kerr study - good science and a very interesting read.
> 
> http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwil...agement/kerr_wma/research/antlered_yearlings/


I don't have much faith in Kerr's results. I have proof that you do not need to harvest yearling bucks to have a top of the line deer herd, and it is actually easier to have a top of the line deer herd without the harvest of yearling spikes.


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Really this argument should be over. It should already be disproven that it matters whether spikes are allowed to live as yearlings. Plenty of places that harvest spikes have big deer and plenty of places that DO NOT have big deer.

This should prove that spike harvest is not a factor in the production of mature antler quality.

The fact that we still have to argue about it is what baffles me.


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Encinal said:


> Exceptions are the MAIN thing you should manage your deer herd for. You are trying to kill as big a deer possible in most cases. Most people are TRYING to grow trophy deer, not do QDM.
> 
> Trophy deer management is exception management.
> 
> Some of the best ranches in South Texas that grow BIGGEST deer killed do not shoot spikes. If spikes were a horrible part of the deer herd why would these ranches still have great deer?


Here is the thing about Kerr... They stacked the deck in their favor.

*Sire #73046 - "Leroy"*
Leroy was *picked up as a fawn near Sisterdale, Texas in Kendall County *during the summer of 1973. He was bottle-raised by a private individual, and produced very poor spike antlers as a yearling. Leroy was used as a brood buck from October 21, 1974 to January 30, 1980, and was sent to Texas A & I University for research purposes on February 27, 1980.

*Sire #73041*
Sire 73041 was *picked up as a fawn in Brazos County*, Texas and bottle-reared. He produced spike antlers as a yearling, and was used as a brood buck from October 21, 1974 until his death on October 21, 1979. Sire 73041 never produced a set of antlers with more than 4 points. He maintained a distinct red winter fair coat, and passed this characteristic on to many of his offspring.

*Sire #73023 - "Rona"*
The parents of this *sire originated in Walker County*, Texas. Rona was born in 1973 and was reared at the Texas A&M University deer pens. He was fed a horse and mule feed diet while growing his first set of antlers. These first antlers were spikes with a small 15mm projection extending from the base of the right antler. Rona was used as a brood buck from October 21, 1974 until his death on October 30, 1978.

*Sire # 73009 - " Little Abbey"*
The dam of this *sire was transferred from the Abilene, Texas zoo* to the Kerr Wildlife Management Area on June 5, 1973. Little Abbey was born on June 16, 1973. He was reared by his dam, and fed a horse and mule feed ration (protein content unknown) while growing his first set of antlers. He was used as a brood buck from October 21, 1974 until his death on February 9, 1980.

*Sire #73069 - "Little Murph"*
The dam of this sire was moved from *the Midland, Texas zoo* to the Kerr Wildlife Management Area on June 6, 1973. Little Murph (Fig. 15) was born on July 22, 1973, and reared by his dam. Although he was fed a high protein ration (in excess of 16%), he produced a poor set of spike antlers as a yearling. Little Murph was used as a brood buck from October 21, 1974 until his death on October 13, 1978. None of his 4 offspring produced forked antlers as yearlings.

*Sire #73068*
This buck was born in *Kerr County, Texas* and bottle-reared. He produced spike antlers as a yearling and was used as a brood buck from November 15, 1974 until his death on February 17, 1978.

*Sire #75064 - "Murph Jr."* _*(Intentionally Line Bred for Small Antlers)*_
Murph Jr. was born on June 11, 1975 at the Kerr Wildlife Management Area and was the son of Little Murph (73069). He was fed the standard high protein diet and produced spike antlers as a yearling. Murph Jr. produced a set of antlers at 2.5 years which had 4 points and was similar in conformation to his sire. He was used as a brood buck from October 26, 1977 until his death on July 18, 1980.
*
Sire #77037 - "Scrawny"* _*(Intentionally Line Bred for Small Antlers)*_
Scrawny was born July 14, 1977 and was a back-cross to Sire 73068. As a yearling, Scrawny's antlers were 10mm and 9mm in length and too short to remove without damaging his skull. He was used as a brood buck beginning November 16, 1978.

And then we get to Big Charlie their "Forked Herd" Sire...
*
Sire #73005 - "Big Charlie"*
Big Charlie (Fig . 16) was born on June 18, 1973 in the Kerr Wildlife Management Area deer pens, and produced 6 points as a yearling. At 3.5 years, Big Charlie had 10 points and weighed 211 lbs. *He was the son of "A&M Charlie" (Fig. 17), a buck which was picked up as a fawn in Milam County, Texas* and reared in the Texas A&M University deer pens. A&M Charlie had 8 points at 1.5, 2.5, and 3.5 years of age. When A&M Charlie died at 3.5 years of age, his field dressed weight was 176 lbs. *Big Charlie's maternal grandfather, "Salty", (Fig. 18) originated in a captive herd in Maverick County near Eagle Pass, Texas.* Salty was a large-bodied deer and grew large sets of antlers while in captivity.

So you take Several bucks from notably small antlered and small body weight deer herd counties and then compare their offspring to a Maverick county cross?

You have got to be kidding me. Of course the Maverick County deer's offspring are going to have bigger antlers and weigh more...


----------



## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

Too Tall said:


> I ground check the ones I don't think will ever mature. So far I'm batting a 1000. None have ever gone on to be a trophy. :wink:


Well, there you go then.

The stats don't lie folks.


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

The facts are Encinal, that a spike deer, the majority of the time will not have large antlers or the body mass of better deer.

The question you should be asking is why keep them, feed them and have them breed more deer with substandard antlers and body weight?

More from KWMA

This study compared antler characteristics and body mass of 144 white-tailed deer at 4.5 years of age that were reared in the pens from 1973 to 1990. All yearling deer were classified as yearlings (spike, fork, 3-5 pts, and 6+ pts) and live body weight recorded. At 4.5 years of age the gross Boone and Crockett score (GBC) was measured. The average GBC score of adult deer that were fork-antlered yearlings (127.8) was greater than those of spike-antlered yearlings (89.9). Adults that were fork-antlered yearlings also had greater tine lengths and beam circumferences at each of the 4 GBC measurement positions. At 4.5 years of age, mean body mass was also greater for the fork-antlered group (78.7 kg) than for the spike-antlered group (66.7 kg). Average GBC scores of adults that had 6 or more points as yearlings (134.0) exceeded that of adults that were spike-antlered as yearlings by 44 GBC points. These results show that classifying yearlings as spike or fork-antlered is useful in predicting antler characteristics and body mass at maturity. This project was an extension of the original Ott study completed in 1990. Three MS theses were produced as a result of these projects.


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Find me another study that agrees and can produce the same results.

I certainly don't see that in my deer herd that hasn't had a spike killed in it in 9 years now.


----------



## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

Encinal said:


> Find me another study that agrees and can produce the same results.
> 
> I certainly don't see that in my deer herd that hasn't had a spike killed in it in 9 years now.


I guess it would be interesting to see if you would notice a difference if you started shooting spikes over the next few years and see if your average score goes up in your deer with branched antlers.

Deer in your area may not be affected due to geographic location, genetics, etc.....I believe conducting your own study may be the best answer to the question.

I would always question if I would have less spikes if I culled 1.5+ year olds. Ideally, I would prefer to have multi branched bucks breeding my does and (assumingly) reduce the number of future spikes.

My .02.


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Main Frame 8 said:


> I guess it would be interesting to see if you would notice a difference if you started shooting spikes over the next few years and see if your average score goes up in your deer with branched antlers.
> 
> Deer in your area may not be affected due to geographic location, genetics, etc.....I believe conducting your own study may be the best answer to the question.
> 
> ...


Our yearly average spike harvest was 26% of our yearling buck age class over 15 years of data. Our numbers of spikes has not changed on average since we stopped killing them.


----------



## "Reddrum" (Dec 15, 2005)

This is funny - as long as there is deer hunting there will be this discussion.

First remember these studies are focused on YEARLING spikes. Second I doubt anyone would suggest that under normal conditions a 3.5 yr old spike shouldn't be culled - I'd shoot that sucker 100% of the time.

So who do you believe? You've got the Kerr study saying spikes will always be inferior and on the other hand Dr. Kroll from SFA saying don't shoot any spikes because a spike is just as likely to grow into a trophy as any other deer by the time it reaches 4 yrs of age.

I can't say who is right and who is wrong but at the end of the day I'm focused on improving the same 3 things everyone else is - age, nutrition and genetics. And that last one is the hardest to control.


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

*9 Years?*



Encinal said:


> Find me another study that agrees and can produce the same results.
> 
> I certainly don't see that in my deer herd that hasn't had a spike killed in it in 9 years now.


Cool, you've got 8 more years to go and you can formulate all the data that you've collected, hand it over to some graduate students working on their MS degrees and they can do their Master's thesis on the subject.

Let us know the results if you would.

TH


----------



## z-cat (Jul 24, 2007)

Nothing will change for us. If he's over about 2yrs. old, down he goes.


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> I can't say who is right and who is wrong but at the end of the day I'm focused on improving the same 3 things everyone else is - age, nutrition and *genetics*. And that last one is the hardest to control.


And by shooting the spikes you are focusing on the genetics of the herd; you're removing that side of the spectrum. 

TH


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

You sure are pretty rude for having no idea what my background is. God forbid someone question the almighty Kerr Study... Especiallly someone who actually has a healthy herd.


----------



## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

Encinal said:


> Our yearly average spike harvest was 26% of our yearling buck age class over 15 years of data. Our numbers of spikes has not changed on average since we stopped killing them.


I hear ya and certainly don't profess to be an expert by any stretch.

Is it a fair question to ask if that 26% figure would be lower if you did cull older spikes? Subsequently, would more does then be bred by non-spike animals, in theory resulting in more multi-branched antlers and less spikes?

The question lingers into further reaching questions. For example, if a spike breeds a doe and that doe gives birth to twin does, do you now have 2 additional does that "may" be genetically inferior to a doe that was the product of a buck with better antler genetics?

Walker,

Where are you at on this???? I need answers man.

I have tired head and may shoot a spike this weekend because of it!


----------



## z-cat (Jul 24, 2007)

And, as Charlie said, when he started this thread, the popcorn is ready.

Have a safe weekend folks.


----------



## "Reddrum" (Dec 15, 2005)

Trouthunter said:


> And by shooting the spikes you are focusing on the genetics of the herd; you're removing that side of the spectrum.
> 
> TH


Yep - it's worked for us so far so I'll keep on keepin' on.

Encinal since you brought up your background do you care to elaborate?


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

*Well, lol...*



Encinal said:


> You sure are pretty rude for having no idea what my background is. God forbid someone question the almighty Kerr Study... Especiallly someone who actually has a healthy herd.


Don't know where I was rude to you and I sincerely apologize if you took my post that way but you're the one who is questioning the study and are dead set in your stance on shooting spikes on your property and stated that your herd hasn't changed by not shooting them in 9 years.

The Kerr study was over a 17 year period. So your 9 years plus 8 more will give you a 17 year period that should have a lot of data in it.

I don't know you, but I do know the biologist who runs the KWMA and I know what he says about spikes and I know what Hefner Appling of the Retamosa Ranch in Encinal thought about spikes, so who are you and why is your ranch different?

TH


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

I manage a South Texas ranch that has been consistently growing some of the biggest Native non manipulated deer in the state for several years and has seen firsthand how the harvest of spikes can severely set a program back.


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Trouthunter said:


> Don't know where I was rude to you and I sincerely apologize if you took my post that way but you're the one who is questioning the study and are dead set in your stance on shooting spikes on your property and stated that your herd hasn't changed by not shooting them in 9 years.
> 
> *The Kerr study was over a 17 year period. So your 9 years plus 8 more will give you a 17 year period that should have a lot of data in it.
> *
> ...


I have data back to 1984. 15 years prior to these last 9 we religiously killed spikes.

Im not saying that all spikes are good, and Im not saying that Kerr hasn't done a lot of amazing revolutionary work. I just have not seen a benefit to the harvest of spikes in my experience. And have experience to show that spike harvest can hurt a program more than help.


----------



## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

Way ta Go Charlie


----------



## 2GOOD (Mar 16, 2008)

Any spike over 2 1/2 yrs old should be shot, I think we all agree. But for the 1 1/2 yrs old, here is my view of 2 different situations. If you are high fenced and can control the genetics and what they eat, shoot em. If you are low fenced with under 4000 acres to manage, then let the 1 1/2 year old spikes go. First of all, most 1 1/2 yr olds are going to relocate up to 5 miles away from where they are born. Do you know if the landowner 5 miles away is killing spikes or not? I don't think you do. Second, most spikes in natural state are just deer born later than others. Most of the growth is going to their body and not the antlers. They just need time to catch up. Generally by 3 1/2, they do and there is not a noticiable difference in average score. Which by age 3 1/2 and 4 1/2, you probably have already made an opinion on wether or not to cull a deer out. I've got a 4 1/2, mid 150s class 10 that was a spike his first year. In my opinion, if you are low fenced and shoot 1 1/2 yr old spikes, then you are you are just killing your trophy 5 years early. Let's face it, not every deer is B&C material and the average score for a mature buck is around 130. Shoot them early, and you may not have a mature buck to shoot later on.


----------



## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Where 'horn restrictions' are in place a spike or any buck with 1 unbranched is a legal buck...Hmmm on another note in Miss a spike is not a legal buck, this is evidence no one knows squat...WW hey Charlie a guy gave me the bass when I was doing Taxidermy, I mounted it and had it in Academy for adver. Looked lots better 10yrs back


----------



## backlashingcooger (Aug 2, 2006)

You Betcha qemo sabe...in a heartbeat...he had time to grow some forks ..looks in good shape...frying pan material...


shanegair said:


> So, would you shoot this deer?


----------



## brasos (Jan 7, 2006)

Let me preface this to say that I am not an expert but here is one way to look at it:

Say your goal is to remove the worst 25% of your inferior stock every year and let your best 75% reproduce.

A - you could take out the bottom quarter of your buck yearlings - that way you are certain that the inferior genes are never passed on.

B - you could remove the bottom quarter of your 3.5 year olds bucks - that way some of the bottom quarter yearlings that were late bloomers are spared. But some of these animals were able to pass on their inferior genes.

What is the flaw with this reasoning? I agree that you should shoot a 3.5 year old spike - but you can almost be certain that 3.5 year old was a spike yearling.

That being said if you stick to plan A or B your stock should be improving every year. Buck management is one side of the equation - what is the best way to manage Does? Do you shoot younger does so you are always turning over that population quicker? Do you want the average age of your bucks to be 5.5 and does to be 3.5? Or do you shoot older does? 



I think we can all benefit from hearing different opinions.


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I love this debate every year. By now you would think that we'd have solved the mystery.

In my case, shooting spikes has helped our herd but then we're not high fenced. 

So let the debate continue and let the backstrap fry. Anyone have a good recipe for spike gravy? 

TH


----------



## Chase This! (Jul 20, 2007)

Trouthunter said:


> I don't know you
> 
> TH


I believe it is in your best interest to learn who you are talking to in this case.

Sorry, TroutHunter, but I'll take the advice of the dude who has taken a better than 260.


----------



## Free_loader (Nov 4, 2004)

H3ll i don't even have a choice here ... more than 1/2 the counties in MO are antler restricted .. have to have at least 4 points on one side or it has to walk


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Chase This...was it a spike? 



I know who he is and what ranch his Dad owns and I remember the big buck and we won't go into whose is bigger and all that kid's stuff.

It boils down to what works for you. If not shooting spikes for 9 years on a high fenced ranch works, great. That's what you should be doing.

If shooting every spike you see works for you on your high fence or low fence ranch, great. That's what you should be doing.

It's all in what works. Because it works for me, it might not for you. Because it works for him, it might not work for the other guy.

In the end, all that matters is what you're accomplishing. I don't have any expectations of having a deer the size that Webb county produces on the land I own in Jackson County or on my folks place in Utopia. But I'm pretty proud of what we have there now, and we got there by shooting the spikes that we see.

TH


----------



## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

I think it is all in your management plan too. On our new ranch we have way to many deer. Yeah, we've seen some young spikes and some poor quality older bucks but no solid mature bucks. Spikes are the least of our probs right now. I personally have no plans to kill any 1.5 year old spikes. Need to kill some older poorer quality bucks and lots of does. We need the numbers down. So for now let the young spike deer walk. Maybe in a few years spikes will be on the menu.


----------



## vvflash04 (Oct 2, 2007)

Who started this? I done forgot....

LOL...


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Trouthunter said:


> It's all in what works. Because it works for me, it might not for you. Because it works for him, it might not work for the other guy.
> 
> TH


That is totally true, there are different management strategies needed in different scenarios. I'm not saying I would NEVER shoot a yearling spike. I can envision a time... like say I had 3 times as many deer as I should and had to delve into the yearling buck age class to reduce numbers that I might...

I just don't think that they are all inferior... or close to the numbers that Kerr says they are inferior, and I think that most of them will catch up and be right in the big middle of the deer average. Some will be on the very top end.


----------



## kaptin krunch (May 23, 2004)

I know who he is and what ranch his Dad owns and I remember the big buck and we won't go into whose is bigger and all that kid's stuff.


So that was not rude? at 4pm you do not know who you are talking to, but at 6:45 you do? Are you baiting people?


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Yea kaptin krunch, I turned the feeder on for 10 seconds a throw and here they came.

TH


----------



## kaptin krunch (May 23, 2004)

Thats funny


----------



## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

kaptin krunch said:


> I know who he is and what ranch his Dad owns and I remember the big buck and we won't go into whose is bigger and all that kid's stuff.
> 
> So that was not rude? at 4pm you do not know who you are talking to, but at 6:45 you do? Are you baiting people?


Maybe they sent each other a PM and realized who they were talking to. Happens all the time.

So are ya'll saying we should kill spikes or not?


----------



## BigBuck (Mar 2, 2005)

*Spikes*

BS- yes to your question.
Have fun folks, I am off to Dimmit County!!
C ya.
BB


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

I haven't had any conversation with him in PM. I did like the implication that its "his daddy's" place considering I'm 30 years old. That was cute considering I have been exclusive manager for 9 or 10 years.

Someone having different experiences should be enough without being attacked for it.

I didn't mention who I was... that was someone else. I'm not some chest thumping goon and if I had my way I would be able to post on forums without having to talk about "the deer". He was a freak and I am much more proud of our herd in general than some flyer deer that by lucky lotto was born on us.

I just have a different opinion than the mainstream on spikes and have pretty radical proof that at least in my case, your herd doesn't crumble if they aren't taken as yearlings.


----------



## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

Well is it your Daddy's place? Ain't nothing wrong with that. I'm 47 and only wish my Daddy had a place. Does it matter? I think your getting kinda fluffed up over nothing. Problem with reading words people type is we can't hear tone of voice or observe state of mind. I don't think Trout was being mean to you. Personally I like your thinking and understand his. Thats why that darn CHARLIE started this thread. He was hungry for popcorn. LOL


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

I'm not fluffed up, just mildly annoyed. I realize this is the internet. I've fallen into the trap he fell into myself.


----------



## Leemo (Nov 16, 2006)

Gosh doggy, I found the Ezra, I'm gone.............. be safe!


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> I did like the implication that its "his daddy's" place considering I'm 30 years old.


Actually I said "Dad", with a capital D and if he doesn't own the ranch any longer and you do, then I stand corrected and that didn't mean anything, lol sheesh, you sure have a chip on your shoulder.

And no one here attacked you. You just stated you had 9 years of not killing spikes and I said to get back with us when you had 17.

In any case, enjoy the weekend.

TH


----------



## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

So, Leemo? You gonna kill a spike?


----------



## yazoomike (Aug 31, 2006)

After Leemo drinks that Ezra they are all huge deer that he sees. No spikes.


----------



## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

Bucksnort said:


> Maybe they sent each other a PM and realized who they were talking to. Happens all the time.
> 
> So are ya'll saying we should kill spikes or not?


No Snort, as usual, TH had to be informed. :slimer: LOL


----------



## buckduster (Jul 26, 2005)

*Marko*

I'm certain that is Marko Bennett and you may recall seeing his picture on the cover of TTHA with the mpnster he shot on his ranch. Helluva deer by the way!


----------



## brasos (Jan 7, 2006)

buckduster said:


> I'm certain that is Marko Bennett and you may recall seeing his picture on the cover of TTHA with the mpnster he shot on his ranch. Helluva deer by the way!


I am pretty sure that was Major Applewhite...


----------



## warrenng (Feb 14, 2005)

I think I know how to solve this problem for good. Have the deer with alot of points give a % of those points to the deer that dont have any. For example if you had 12 points you are required to give 3 of those points to a spike. 10 points you have to give 2 away...............


----------



## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

Best thread I have found in the oldies but goodies, It's easy to see that some people's info comes from what they have read where others comes from being there first hand!


----------



## TXwhtlHNTR (Nov 19, 2008)

Profish00 said:


> Yup, then chicken fry with white gravy.




& rice.


----------



## TXwhtlHNTR (Nov 19, 2008)

warrenng said:


> I think I know how to solve this problem for good. Have the deer with alot of points give a % of those points to the deer that dont have any. For example if you had 12 points you are required to give 3 of those points to a spike. 10 points you have to give 2 away...............


So, you say your're a liberal Socialist/Democrat?

:biggrin:


----------



## ClayShooter (Aug 29, 2009)

Let them pass if they are yearlings, might be spikes due to the fact that it was a dry year and should of been a branch horned yearling. give them the benefit of the doubt but if it's still a spike on its second set of horns shoot it and move on


----------



## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

Right on!


----------



## Brassnadz (Jun 18, 2007)

shanegair said:


> So, would you shoot this deer?


I would. Not alot of potential there.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Darn this thread brought back from a year ago.. Im getting the popcorn out again.

Charlie


----------



## JWHITE (Oct 17, 2006)

I would and do pass up younger spikes, but I will shoot a slick six of any age in a heartbeat.


----------



## stoneywood (May 27, 2009)

Opinion on killing does....do you kill pre or post rut??


----------



## M16 (May 28, 2008)

I hunted on a South Texas ranch where the policy was to shoot all spikes on sight. There were some years where we probably killed half the previous years buck fawn crop. We did have some great deer and I was fortunate enough to kill one that booked. I didn't totally agree with program but did shot every spike that crossed my path. 

A friend on the lease and I bought our own place and continued the kill all spikes program the first year. The next year we killed only the spikes with antlers less than four inches tall. The reason we killed the short horned spikes is simple. They grew less antler then the long horned ones. I still do the same thing today. If I shoot a spike it's going to be the one's with the shortest spikes. I'll only shoot spikes now toward the end of the season and only after killing every management buck I can find. They are a fill in so that the recommended number of bucks get shot.

From the studies I have seen something like 95% of all spikes are yearling bucks. Very, very seldom do you actually shoot a spike that is 2.5 or older. It just doesn't happen often and it's rare when it does. One thing I have noticed over the years is that when you have a great fawn crop survival say in the 80% range you will have a ton of spikes the following year.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I just have a problem killing post rut doe but I have. Just dont like killing 2 maybe 3 with one shot. I know I know its all the same but it bothers me. Lots of bigger places that are managed make hunters kill all the doe early in the year before any bucks are shot. I like that idea.

Regarding shooting spikes... I bet there will be a ton of them down south because of the dry weather all year. Mother nature takes care of the body first and then antlers. Dont be too quick with the trigger finger.

Charlie


----------



## M16 (May 28, 2008)

stoneywood said:


> Opinion on killing does....do you kill pre or post rut??


I prefer to kill the does pre rut or as soon as possible. Why feed something you are going to kill five months later anyhow? Of course it doesn't always work out that way but I'm really going to make the effort to get it done in October and November this year. Last year we killed 90% of our management bucks before the rut. This year I want to do the same and kill at least that percentage of does before the rut as well. I'd hate to kill a doe after she was bred by one of the top end bucks on the place.


----------



## texas8point (Dec 18, 2006)

If they look like this one I took a few years ago I would say YES


----------



## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

stoneywood said:


> Opinion on killing does....do you kill pre or post rut??


 During the rut that way you can line up the shot just right and kill a buck and doe with one shot.


----------



## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

I haven't changed my mind in the last year.


----------



## sqiggy (Aug 30, 2007)

Thanks for the great read guys!!!

Anybody got any peanuts to go with this popcorn??


----------



## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Do you guys like to celebrate at Hooters or Chuck E Cheese after you down your spike?

Go ahead George, tell them about the guided trophy spike I patterned and put you on last year.


----------



## Johnny9 (Sep 7, 2005)

Our policy on our lease is to shoot all large body spike that have a body like a 3.5-4.5 old buck. We study the body before we pull the trigger.


----------



## JLC72 (Nov 7, 2006)

Encinal said:


> I haven't changed my mind in the last year.


Thanks for your comments.. What's that saying? Oh yeah, the proof is in the pudding.. lol Looks like whatever your doing has been working pretty darn good..


----------



## brasos (Jan 7, 2006)

what is the policy on Palerider's big Kerrville lease? speaking of - any spots open up for the season?


----------



## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

brasos said:


> what is the policy on Palerider's big Kerrville lease? speaking of - any spots open up for the season?


Nothing available at present. We review all member spots in late March. Check back with me the first part of April.


----------



## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

warrenng said:


> I think I know how to solve this problem for good. Have the deer with alot of points give a % of those points to the deer that dont have any. For example if you had 12 points you are required to give 3 of those points to a spike. 10 points you have to give 2 away...............


Sounds like advise from the deer czar appointed by the Obama administration.


----------



## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

On a serious note, I have helped a good friend catch, tag, and release deer. Over the years, it has been very common for a young spike to grow into a great trophy. Actually, so common that after many years of being able to track the growth of their deer through tagging, that they have concluded that being a spike at a very young age (up to 1.5) has zero bearing on the potential of that deer at 3.5 or greater.


----------



## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Barbarian said:


> On a serious note, I have helped a good friend catch, tag, and release deer. Over the years, it has been very common for a young spike to grow into a great trophy. Actually, so common that after many years of being able to track the growth of their deer through tagging, that they have concluded that being a spike at a very young age (up to 1.5) has zero bearing on the potential of that deer at 3.5 or greater.


Trouthunter just choked on his salisbury spike steak...:biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

LOL nah Blake but I know what works for me. 

If someone wants to discuss this, start a new thread, this one's live out it's term.

TH


----------



## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

Not just yet, Tonto!!



Haute Pursuit said:


> Trouthunter just choked on his salisbury spike steak...:biggrin::biggrin:


*ROTFLMAO!! *:rotfl:

OK


----------

