# Spheros capabilities?



## crackedglass

I've been looking at setting up a heavy spinning outfit for Black Drum, mostly fish in the 60 to 100lb range that pull a lot of drag. 
I was pretty much looking at either a Thunnus, Baitrunner B, or Spheros FA reel. Most that do this are using reels with higher drag ratings since these fish like to make hard runs and there's a need to gain control of the fish early on to avoid a mess on a party boat. 
I was all set to buy a brand new Spheros 8000, when I was told that I'd need to step up to the 14000 series to gain more drag capacity, which is fine, but overkill on line capacity since I use Power Pro, and that I really need to step up to a better reel since the gears in the Spheros aren't up to the task, I was told that I'd need to step up to the Saragosa 14000 to get Paladin gears.
Also, I prefer to stay with the older Spheros FA model, simply since I've got 12 others and have never had an issue with one, and they can be had for a lot less cash. The Saragosa just isn't in the budget right now. I did find a used Thunnus 6000 for sale, a neighbor bought one for surf fishing and didn't like all the weight that came with it. My question is, will any of the reels I listed, the SP FA. BR B, or Thunnus 6000 hold up to the task? 
I'm not fishing Tuna here, and I've never had a reel ruin a set of gears, but I have seen these fish burn up quite a few drags on smaller reels. I've also seen a few Thunnus reels with snapped off stems but I have no idea what led up to that sort of damage.


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## Roger

The Spheros isn't really a bad reel for the price. While it's not in the class of the Stella or the Saragossa. It can hold its own with large drum and reds. Shimano doesn't make the FA anymore, it's now an FB. Different drag stack is one of the changes, what other changes are I really don't know. Now the differences between the spheros and the saragossa are one more bearing and the gears. The drag stack is the same. Also those high drag ratings for these reels that you see on paper are made with an empty spool not a full spool as with conventional reels. So that 44# you see on a spheros 14 or 18k are really 17 to 20#s with a full spool.

Which ever reel you decide on make sure you have greased carbontex drag washers in the reel. On the FB it's real easy to check 'em.

My son bought a 18000FB a few months ago and it came with greased carbon fiber washers. Shimano's slowly converting they're reels from what I understand.


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## crackedglass

If the drag isn't all that high with a full spool, then there's no real reason to go with the larger reel, as the smaller spool reels will do just fine as far as line capacity. Since I use braid, even a 6000 sized reel will work. 

I mentioned the Spheros FA since that's what I have access to right now, I can get a deal on the older model. I'm not concerned about bearing differences, but the fact that a tackle shop made it sound like a Spheros or lesser model won't hold up to drum fish worries me. (I've used a Spheros 5000FA, and 6000FA for stripers now for 5 years with never an issue, I've even brought in a few nice sized fish on my 4000FA. But drum pull much harder and have much broader shoulders in fast running tide than does a striper. 

What is different about the drag stack on the FB other than the carbon washers? Can't I simply add carbon washers to the FA model? 
What are Paladin gears? Are they stainless steel or something or just coated aluminum? The guy here made it sound like I'd blow the guts out of an older Spheros if I hooked anything of any size. The largest fish I've landed with the 6000FA was a 52" shark two seasons ago, with no damage to the reel. The way I see it, on a spinning reel, the gears don't pull the weight, the antireverse take the brunt of the load when a big fish runs, along with the drag having to hold up and not burn up. The gears only take up line on the down stroke when fighting something really big. I'd suppose that if I cranked against an immovable force, like a big fish, I'd probably twist the handle off long before I blow out the gears? 

I've seen guys cranking on a spinning reel like a winch, and after the fight the gears sound like a coffee grinder in action. I never really thought a spinner was meant to be used that way. I tend to use the rod to pull the fish and the reel to take up slack like on the down stroke. 

Where does the Thunnus 6000 fall into the drag and capacity ratings? I can get one of those used in new condition for far less than the new Spheros. I do know I want an aluminum body and rotor, which I see the Spheros don't get till you get to the 14000 model now, I'm not sure on the older models, but I believe my FA models may have aluminum rotors, but I've never checked. I started going to the Spheros since I had issues with front bearings and AV bearings getting rusty on my Stradic reels back in 2003 or so. The Spheros made all those issues go away.


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## Day0ne

crackedglass said:


> If the drag isn't all that high with a full spool, then there's no real reason to go with the larger reel, as the smaller spool reels will do just fine as far as line capacity. Since I use braid, even a 6000 sized reel will work.


The drag is higher than that and you need to consider that the 14000 with a full spool still puts out more drag than any smaller Spheros does with an empty spool. A lot of people, including myself, use Spheros for tuna fishing, which most consider tougher fish than drum. My only complaint about the Spheros is the handle, but the Saragosa handle fits.



crackedglass said:


> I'm not concerned about bearing differences, but the fact that a tackle shop made it sound like a Spheros or lesser model won't hold up to drum fish worries me. (I've used a Spheros 5000FA, and 6000FA for stripers now for 5 years with never an issue, I've even brought in a few nice sized fish on my 4000FA. But drum pull much harder and have much broader shoulders in fast running tide than does a striper.


The extra bearing is easily added to the Spheros if that become an issue and I totally disagree with that tackle shop. The Spheros 14000FA is a strong reel



crackedglass said:


> What is different about the drag stack on the FB other than the carbon washers? Can't I simply add carbon washers to the FA model?
> What are Paladin gears? Are they stainless steel or something or just coated aluminum? The guy here made it sound like I'd blow the guts out of an older Spheros if I hooked anything of any size.


The FA series has 3 larger drag washers, the FB has 5 smaller washers. They have similar drag specs. Smoooth Drag has carbontex washers for the 14000FA
Paladin Gear Durability Enhancement Spinning Using a special cold forged aluminum drive gear and a hardened brass pinion gear (Stainless Steel pinion gear on Stella SW),



crackedglass said:


> Where does the Thunnus 6000 fall into the drag and capacity ratings? I can get one of those used in new condition for far less than the new Spheros. I do know I want an aluminum body and rotor, which I see the Spheros don't get till you get to the 14000 model now, I'm not sure on the older models, but I believe my FA models may have aluminum rotors, but I've never checked. The Spheros made all those issues go away.


The Thunnus has less drag than a comprable Spheros. It only has 17lbs drag in any size. Being a baitrunner type reel, they are weaker also. You need a 12000FA or 14000FA to get the metal rotor I beleive. The 12000FA has a lesser line capacity than the 14000FA. This place still has some for sale:

http://www.rivermarinesupply.com/xc...altwater_Spinning_Reel_3000_4000__5000_6.html


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## Chris-Chris

*Spheros are good reels*

Here's a 60# Cobia / Ling that my 8 y/o son caught with Spheros 6000 last summer.

Here's the video


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## crackedglass

Day0ne said:


> The drag is higher than that and you need to consider that the 14000 with a full spool still puts out more drag than any smaller Spheros does with an empty spool. A lot of people, including myself, use Spheros for tuna fishing, which most consider tougher fish than drum. My only complaint about the Spheros is the handle, but the Saragosa handle fits.


 No doubt that tuna are much tougher than drum, but I rarely get out there these days. My concern was only after several local bait shops made the Spheros sound like a weak reel not up to the task.



Day0ne said:


> The extra bearing is easily added to the Spheros if that become an issue and I totally disagree with that tackle shop. The Spheros 14000FA is a strong reel


Where is the extra bearing in the Saragosa? 
What are the gears in the Spheros made of? Are they any lesser a material than say the Baitrunner or Thunnus reels?



Day0ne said:


> The FA series has 3 larger drag washers, the FB has 5 smaller washers. They have similar drag specs. Smoooth Drag has carbontex washers for the 14000FA
> Paladin Gear Durability Enhancement Spinning Using a special cold forged aluminum drive gear and a hardened brass pinion gear (Stainless Steel pinion gear on Stella SW),


It sounds to me like the FA with larger diameter drag washers may have close to or equal amount of drag with the right washers installed? The larger diameter makes me think that they may dissipate heat better?
I've used a Baitrunner BR6500 for a few years for drum with no ill effects other than some smoke coming off the drag on larger fish. The longest fight was about 45 minutes to haul in a 92 lb fish, the drag was toast but I landed the fish. While no where's near a record fish, it still put up a serious fight in the strong outgoing current. The next day when I serviced the reel, the drag washers were fused together, but no other damage was done to the reel. It was brand new at that time. The steel discs were blue, the drag washers were burnt and brittle. The local tackle shop gave me some aftermarket drag washers for it, which I'm not sure who made them, but they looked a lot like Penn's HT100 washers, and it's been fine since. I run the drag lightly greased.



Day0ne said:


> The Thunnus has less drag than a comprable Spheros. It only has 17lbs drag in any size. Being a baitrunner type reel, they are weaker also. You need a 12000FA or 14000FA to get the metal rotor I beleive. The 12000FA has a lesser line capacity than the 14000FA. This place still has some for sale:
> 
> http://www.rivermarinesupply.com/xc...altwater_Spinning_Reel_3000_4000__5000_6.html


I saw those, it won't let you checkout on anything but the 3000 or 5000FA models, so the others are gone. I bought two 3000FA reels from them last fall. 
The line capacity isn't an issue at all, I could get away with a 5000FA as far as line capacity. It's the drag that's my concern. It does sound like I need the 14000FA to get the same drag capability.

For what type of fishing was the Thunnus intended for? It looks to be a pretty strong reel, but has such a low drag rating compared to lesser series reels?


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## Day0ne

crackedglass said:


> No doubt that tuna are much tougher than drum, but I rarely get out there these days. My concern was only after several local bait shops made the Spheros sound like a weak reel not up to the task.
> 
> I wouldn't think it was a concern
> 
> 
> Where is the extra bearing in the Saragosa?
> What are the gears in the Spheros made of? Are they any lesser a material than say the Baitrunner or Thunnus reels?
> 
> The Spheros main gear has 1 bearing on the left and a bushing on the right. The bushing can be replaced with a bearing, but I'm not sure it's needed. Shimano advises against it I beleive
> 
> It sounds to me like the FA with larger diameter drag washers may have close to or equal amount of drag with the right washers installed? The larger diameter makes me think that they may dissipate heat better?
> I've used a Baitrunner BR6500 for a few years for drum with no ill effects other than some smoke coming off the drag on larger fish. The longest fight was about 45 minutes to haul in a 92 lb fish, the drag was toast but I landed the fish. While no where's near a record fish, it still put up a serious fight in the strong outgoing current. The next day when I serviced the reel, the drag washers were fused together, but no other damage was done to the reel. It was brand new at that time. The steel discs were blue, the drag washers were burnt and brittle. The local tackle shop gave me some aftermarket drag washers for it, which I'm not sure who made them, but they looked a lot like Penn's HT100 washers, and it's been fine since. I run the drag lightly greased.
> 
> Greased carbontex drag washers are the way to go
> 
> I saw those, it won't let you checkout on anything but the 3000 or 5000FA models, so the others are gone. I bought two 3000FA reels from them last fall.
> The line capacity isn't an issue at all, I could get away with a 5000FA as far as line capacity. It's the drag that's my concern. It does sound like I need the 14000FA to get the same drag capability.
> 
> I realize the line capacity isn't an issue, but to get the things you want in a Spheros FA, you need the 12000 or the 14000
> 
> For what type of fishing was the Thunnus intended for? It looks to be a pretty strong reel, but has such a low drag rating compared to lesser series reels?
> 
> Well, Thunnus is the genus name for tuna but I think you might be under gunned using one for tuna. Another consideration is the Thunnus is a heavier reel


My comments in red


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## crackedglass

It sounds like the Thunnus is definitely out.

I was comparing parts diagrams on the Spheros FA and FB reels, I remembered why I really didn't like the FB Series, or the Saragosa for that matter, neither model has an antireverse lever. It seems they are doing away with that feature on all reels these days? 
I never thought it would matter but it drives me crazy not being able to flip off the antireverse and pay out line or simply back up the reel for casting. 

How is do they come to a particular drag rating on a reel? 

The way I see it is that if a 12 year old Baitrunner 6500 can handle a big drum fish, then the Spheros FA should have no issues. I've both used and watched others use both the BR6500 and 4500 reels to haul in big drum with no ill effects on the reel. The 4500's drag got a bit hot but it did the job without breaking a handle or gears. The 6500 handled the job a bit better but the drag was still hot. (I've watched a few guys use smaller reels, and when using mono, the spool would get so hot that the mono would melt to the spool down deep in the wraps, one case in particular was a 68lb drum brought in on a Sahara 4000FA, the reel got so hot the line melted, as did the line holder clip and the back of the drag knob. 
When the drag knob started to melt, it took a gloved hand to apply more drag to make up for the lost pressure. The reel was junk but it did land the fish with some help. I'm sure the guy framed it after that fight). I don't care to put myself or my tackle in that position.

For the price, the Spheros 14000 FA will be the ticket, it's $90 less than the newer model, and $209 less than the Saragosa. I just don't use this size reel enough to justify spending that much on one reel. Add about $50 worth of Power Pro on it, sales tax, and the cost of the rod, the $300 Saragosa would soon end up closer to $700 when the whole outfit is complete. At least by finding a clearance priced Spheros 14000FA, I can still afford the line and the rod.


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## hog

Im sure glad there are some other Spheros fellas out there... Neat thread... I pretty much agree with everything, especially about the carbon tx washer change and the need for a better handle option...

Heres another thread about doing an upgrade, but, I guess if you did do this upgrade, ya might as well buy the next level up reel.

Im happy with what I got 4000 for bait/chicken dolphin, 12000 and 14000 for what ever else I want to try and catch....

http://www.akff.net/wiki/index.php?title=Upgrade_Instructions_for_Shimano_Spheros_14000FA

http://www.bluewater.net.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_209_397&products_id=397

I catch a pretty decent grouper on this video whos putting a good bit of heat on my carbon tx washers for a bit, not to mention my jewels :rotfl:





Hog


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## Bantam1

The Spheros will handle the black drum. There is nothing wrong with the Spheros model reels. A while back there was a post on another board with a guy using a Spheros 18000FB to catch yellowfin tuna up to 300 pounds. That was with the old drag washers too...

The Spheros 8000FB has 27 pounds of max drag. That is enough to fish 60 pound line roughly. The 14000 has 44 pounds of max drag. That is enough to fish 80-100 pound, and maybe even heavier line. 

There is no anti reverse switch because the reel does not need it. Set the drag correctly and fish away.


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## Roger

.....those drag ratings are made with an empty spool not a full spool. I just spooled up an 18000 FB with 80# Tuf-Line Indicator. Hooked it up to a set of drag scales and worked up till I got to what I consider max. and thats with the drag knob tightened down and backed off 1/2 around. I got 17# with that pull. Shimano claims 44# which I have no doubt it will do when the spool gets smaller. As the spool empties your drag increases. That's it.......


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## crackedglass

Bantam1 said:


> The Spheros will handle the black drum. There is nothing wrong with the Spheros model reels. A while back there was a post on another board with a guy using a Spheros 18000FB to catch yellowfin tuna up to 300 pounds. That was with the old drag washers too...
> 
> The Spheros 8000FB has 27 pounds of max drag. That is enough to fish 60 pound line roughly. The 14000 has 44 pounds of max drag. That is enough to fish 80-100 pound, and maybe even heavier line.


How about the Spheros FA? Does it compare the same in drag ratings? Will it hold up to heavy fish? We normally run 80lb line, more so for ease of handling around many lines than for it's rating. There's always a mix of mono and braided line being used, getting a tangle out of thin braid and mono together is near impossible and wastes line. I've been on the losing end when the first mate cuts your line to untangle a big mess.



Bantam1 said:


> There is no anti reverse switch because the reel does not need it. Set the drag correctly and fish away.


The AV lever may not be needed but I won't buy a reel without one. It's just personal preference. If they stop putting them on new reels, I'll fish old reels then. Its a feature I just won't do without. I don't think I'm the only one that feels that way, I've had other buddies take back or sell off reels that didn't have that option. I never thought it would bother me till I had a reel like that myself.


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## Bantam1

Roger,

We rate our drags based on a full spool. If your reel is not making the max drag when set then there is a problem. You will need to send the reel in so we can take a look at it. 

Crackedglass,

The FA and FB are very similar. The FB does have some large improvements in the spool design, drag and handle. The FA will hold up. Unfortunately they do not have the anti reverse switch. Most of our larger offshore spinning reels do not have this switch. Why would you want to backreel on a big fish anyways? Just curious.


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## crackedglass

Bantam1 said:


> .....
> Crackedglass,
> ......................Most of our larger offshore spinning reels do not have this switch. Why would you want to backreel on a big fish anyways? Just curious.


It's not a matter of back winding with a fish on, it's the fact that you can't adjust or back off the line after you reeled in a lure or bait. All you can do if you don't have the AV lever is to twist the spool backwards to let out more line. For instance you cranked in your line to switch baits, and find the swivel jammed against the rod tip, so you need to back off a few inches to cast. 
It's just a PIA not having that lever there. They've been on reels since the beginning, why take them away now?


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## rodworks

I have to agree, I bought one reel with no anti reverse switch. I didn't even notice it at the time. It wasn't a Shimano.
I didn't notice it till the first time I went to cast it, at first I figured I'd just get used to it, but found it more than a little annoying to have to adjust the line by turning the spool. I took the reel back the next day. 
I've heard the same complaint from others. There's no way I'd buy a reel without that feature now. If it means using an antique reel 10 years from now, so be it, those reels caught fish just fine back then, there's no reason to change now.

By the way, I drum fish with a Corvalus 401 on a 20-50lb trigger rod meant for musky fishing. It works fine, but I have smoked out a few sets of drag washers. I fish it with 65lb PP, the biggest problem is the line burying during a fight. The largest black drum I've had on so far was a 68 pounder. 

I've seen several using 6500 Baitrunners reels, and watched a guy blow up a Chinese reel last year. They are strong fish that can run over 100lbs, if your going to use spin gear, then go extra heavy or be prepared to lose a few fish or **** off a few others on the head boat. A few boats here won't let you fish light for just that reason, if you don't have the right gear, they have gear to rent. I for one get pretty upset when someone lets a fish run up and down the boat wasting my chances of catching a fish, especially after paying $80 or more to be there. Some boats are now $100 for an 8 hour trip, and that don't count gas to get there and food. I pretty much figure on $200 per day out on a head boat these days when you count in all your expenses so having some guy decide he wants to play around and fish light is wasting my time and money. I'm there to catch fish for the table, not go home empty handed with half a spool of line left.


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## Bantam1

crackedglass said:


> It's not a matter of back winding with a fish on, it's the fact that you can't adjust or back off the line after you reeled in a lure or bait. All you can do if you don't have the AV lever is to twist the spool backwards to let out more line. For instance you cranked in your line to switch baits, and find the swivel jammed against the rod tip, so you need to back off a few inches to cast.
> It's just a PIA not having that lever there. They've been on reels since the beginning, why take them away now?


We were able to make a stronger anti reverse without the switch. With the reels making more and more drag pressure we had to beef up the anti reverse. This meant eliminating the switch.

Why not just open the bail to let the line out a little? I apologize because I guess I just do not have issues like that when I fish. I am not saying I am not without fault. It's just not something I have come across in my years on the water.


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## rodworks

Did you ever try to open the bail to let a few inches of line out while using Power Pro line and say a pound and a half of bait hanging on the rod tip? 
Often when you reel in, the rotor cup does not fall in the ideal location to open it and cast, in most cases you want the bail to fold down or to the right, if it's in a position where its against the bail trip lever, it won't open, meaning you need to back off the reel enough to open the bail. If the bait or swivel is against the rod tip, you can't take up line slack and hold the line. With the AV lever, you only need to flip the lever and back pedal the reel. 

I've fished this way for many, many years, and suppose most others do as well, the number of complaints I get in the shop about reels without this lever is huge, most guys don't want them and are not willing to adapt, so I, nor the OP are alone in this thinking.

It just seems to most that it's a case of if it isn't broke, don't fix it, reels have been made with an AV lever for 50 years, why take it way now? 
I've got 30 year old reels that I use regularly, that do the job just fine, without an AV failure, so if having the lever lessens the strength of the AV function maybe it's the anti reverse that's the problem?

I use an old MIZ 60 and a Triton 200 for drum fishing, neither have ever failed in any way. The MIZ is about 25 years old now, it has no instant antireverse, I have no idea what the drag rating is but it will all but stop a truck. I've upgraded the drag washers over the years not for more pressure but simply due to availability. I've got 80lb PP on it because it didn't like the thinner lines, it holds about 300 yds of 80lb PP. 
I've been using this reel for 15 years now like this with no ill effects and its never failed me. I guess when it dies or I can no longer keep it going, I'll have to buy something newer, or find another one like it. I also can help but notice how similar the MIZ reels are to the Penn 105 reels, also made in Japan. 

You don't need a tuna reel for drum fishing, you just need some common sense. Fishing for drum requires big baits, and lots of lead to hold bottom, so you often casting 10 oz of lead and large surf clam. If you fishing a double header, two hooks and two clams, then your upwards of two pounds on the line. These fish don't run far, but run hard in short bursts, and if the current is running, it can feel as if you hooked into something much larger. Keep in mind though that the record is upwards of 100 lbs, with fish over 80 being fairly common in the spring. If fishing from a head boat, you need to reign in your fish pretty fast, so you need heavy line and a tough reel, but I don't feel you need a 14000 sized anything. I've seen 80lb fish brought in with a 4500 baitrunner, and a few on even smaller reels but the result is usually a boat wide tangle when the fight is over.

I find that heavier braid is best, not just for it's strength, but because it don't tangle as bad with other lines and is easier to handle. It also holds up best to abrasion and shock. A lot depends too on where you fish, and from what your fishing from. You can get buy fishing lighter from a private boat then from a head boat with 40 or so others fishing side by side.


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## Bantam1

The older reels were not making the amount of drag that the new models are making either. In order to strengthen the bearing, we eliminated the switch.

I'm not trying to argue. I am just explaining why we eliminated this feature on these reels.


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## rodworks

Point taken, I certainly realize that everything has a purpose. It's just that I'm not so sure the result of the change is 100% correct for everyone and the way they fish. I still feel more comfortable fishing older reels, without instant anti reverse, with an AV lever. Even with the older drag set ups, those reels still managed to get the job done. At worse at the cost of a drag pack or two every so often but they keep going. When I see newer reels with broken gears, slipping one way bearings, and broken frames or reel stems I have to wonder sometimes. I also seem to have an easier time finding really old parts vs those made 10 or 15 years ago. I was told that I can no longer get parts for my Catala 400, which uses a roller clutch bearing that was serviced as part of the side plate. It was a good reel till the bearing failed, luckily I found a twin to it new in the box at an old tackle shop while on vacation. The one I found is even older, prior to the instant AV feature so I suspect it will last forever. If I get another 15-20 years out of this one I should be just fine.


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## A Draper

I think we may be overthinking this problem. For drum, just buy one of the bigger reels crank on a lot drag and be done. Don't sweat the drag numbers. I keep a FA 6000 w/ 50 lb braid on my boat and have only once thought I didn't have enough line or drag. I've landed lots of bull reds, drum and sharks with it. Hooked a kingfish last year. I had the drag cranked really tight. I saw the fish hit the bait on the surface. I swear, I started to blink by the time my eyes opened again, I had 3-4 wraps of braid on the spool. I locked the spool with my hand and let the hooks pull. Note, the hooks pulled, the 50lb didn't break.


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