# selling guns and ammo



## jeffm66 (Sep 14, 2010)

What do you do when you sell a firearm and ammo to protect yourself from future litigation?


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## mrvmax (May 10, 2012)

I am not sure if there is any case law regarding this, but before I was an FFL I did nothing. Well, I did make sure the person I sold to was of age and that I had no reason to believe they were buying illegally or intended to use it for unlawful reasons. There are no state or federal requirements that i know of that I have no mentioned but I think it makes sense to at least ask to see a drivers license or preferably a CHL. 
I sure did my best not to sell to anyone that should not legally have it but our govt has provided no way for the average gun owner to verify.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

Bill of Sale for all firearms. Copy of DL also.


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## mrvmax (May 10, 2012)

BTW, what good does having a copy of DL do? I can see having a bill of sale but I do not see what good it does either. Let's say you sell the firearm to Joe Blow and he shoots someone with it. You have no proof of when you sold it but how would they tie you to the crime if you were not involved? I do not see it happening, you tell the police you sold it, the guy looked and sounded legit and that should suffice. How would they possibly tie you to the crime if you were not involved? 
Now, civil court, suppose they want to sue you. Do you really think a bill of sale or DL is going to help? I see no reason to ask for either since I think it does no good.
Let me hear some feedback and see what others think on this.


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## Pintabo (Feb 8, 2006)

wolffman73 said:


> Bill of Sale for all firearms. Copy of DL also.


Exactly what I do.


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

what if you sell your used car to some moron (with a good DL and credit score) and she uses it to run over old ladies in the park? Without a good crystal ball, a PHD in psychology and a password to the FBI database...you just have to act in good faith.


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## jamisjockey (Jul 30, 2009)

I ask to see ID to see if the person is who they're telling me they are. I wouldn't sell to someone that gave me the heebeejeebies, but have never came across that situation. Last time I sold a gun I was late for an appointment because me and the guy talked guns way too long.
I write down thier name and keep a log of gun serial numbers for insurance purposes. If I sell one, I put sold to "so and so" in the spreadsheet.


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## FearNoFish (May 22, 2005)

No drivers license is necessary nor will it do any good. A friend of mine sold his Glock 22 to a friend, who then sold it to a co-worker of his who then used it to kill his wife before he killed himself. The police traced it back to him, he simply told them who he sold it to and that was the end of the story.


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## Fordzilla06 (Oct 14, 2010)

FearNoFish said:


> No drivers license is necessary nor will it do any good. A friend of mine sold his Glock 22 to a friend, who then sold it to a co-worker of his who then used it to kill his wife before he killed himself. The police traced it back to him, he simply told them who he sold it to and that was the end of the story.


How did the police trace it back to him?


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## loco4fishn (May 17, 2010)

Fordzilla06 said:


> How did the police trace it back to him?


I'm just guessing but I'm assuming the police found the gun at the scene of the crime, got the serial # and found out who the original buyer was.


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## Fordzilla06 (Oct 14, 2010)

loco4fishn said:


> I'm just guessing but I'm assuming the police found the gun at the scene of the crime, got the serial # and found out who the original buyer was.


I'm just not sure how they would have figured that out? After all we don't register guns in Texas? So in no way should the cops have been able to trace the firearm.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Cops trace guns all the time. I used to handle such inquiries for a couple local dealers. 

First, the cops take the s/n, contact the manufacturer and find the wholesaler, then the dealer, and then they ask for the dealer's records. 

Often, they don't even have a s/n but they might have an odd ball caliber together with a make. I handled one of those too. It was a Russian makarov converted to .380. FBI knew exactly who had imported that weapon, and they worked their way down the chain of commerce. 

There was even a scam in which cops were pulling over thugs, and before the stop, the thugs would toss their weapons. Cops would then retrieve the weapons, sell them at gun shows to the public and dealers, and when the guns were associated with a crime, the investigators would be calling dealers looking for records on specific makes/models the dealers had purchased over the counter.


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## Fordzilla06 (Oct 14, 2010)

Well what's the point in having a non registry if they can trace em back to you anyways?


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## fishsmart (Dec 5, 2004)

The gun, model, and serial number can be traced from the manufacturer to the last FFL transfer.

Charles


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Why a Dl well, just to point out to police I sold the gun to XXX. Not a stupid answer well, I sold it but dont know who I sold it to. Sounds like a typical crook cover up. Document what you can and dont throw it away.


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## Rubberback (Sep 9, 2008)

Best advise 'Don't sell your guns'.


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## jeffm66 (Sep 14, 2010)

Almost sounds like it is not worth the trouble. I just had a gun that I didn't want anymore and was going to sell it to buy one that I do want. Doesn't seem worth it to me for $500.


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

jeffm66 said:


> Almost sounds like it is not worth the trouble. I just had a gun that I didn't want anymore and was going to sell it to buy one that I do want. Doesn't seem worth it to me for $500.


As long as you have a bill of sale stating clearly the date and time of the transaction and have the TDL number plus the buyer's signature on the bill of sale you are A OK. Nowadays, I snap a digital pic of the buyer for record. If he has an issue with it, I cancel the sale. He's also welcomed to snap my pix if he wants.


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## kanga69 (Mar 17, 2011)

Fordzilla06 said:


> I'm just not sure how they would have figured that out? After all we don't register guns in Texas? So in no way should the cops have been able to trace the firearm.


Every gun is registered to the person that bought it new. The registration is not transferred with the sale of the gun when sold private party. The only unregistered guns are the ones bought before they started registering guns. Not sure when that was, but it has been a long time..


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## mrvmax (May 10, 2012)

FearNoFish said:


> No drivers license is necessary nor will it do any good. A friend of mine sold his Glock 22 to a friend, who then sold it to a co-worker of his who then used it to kill his wife before he killed himself. The police traced it back to him, he simply told them who he sold it to and that was the end of the story.


Exactly, why are you people so paranoid? A firearm can be traced through transactions done by FFL's. There is no way to trace via person to person sales as of right now (yes, there can be some word of mouth where you tell the police who you sold it to but there is no physical way with paper records). Why ask for something that is not required? Gun owners are opposed to the proposal by the gun hating left to make all firearms transactions go through FFL's (which would prohibit person to person sales and cause everyone to have to use FFL's for every transaction) so they can be traced, yet gun owners are asking for copies of ID's, digital pictures, bill of sale etc. when it is not required and does nothing for you. I would not buy a firearm from someone wanting copies of my ID, it does no good and is not required. We have enough laws already, why add more red tape?


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## dbarham (Aug 13, 2005)

I know huh!! I love these dudes that complain about the government and how they can't find ammo yet they go out on the weekend and shoot every shell they can find at nothing!! Then they start complaining again about the government. If they are that worried about an apocalypse or zombies or whatever else they may dream up you would think they would conserve ammo...:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

mrvmax said:


> Exactly, why are you people so paranoid? A firearm can be traced through transactions done by FFL's. There is no way to trace via person to person sales as of right now (yes, there can be some word of mouth where you tell the police who you sold it to but there is no physical way with paper records). Why ask for something that is not required? Gun owners are opposed to the proposal by the gun hating left to make all firearms transactions go through FFL's (which would prohibit person to person sales and cause everyone to have to use FFL's for every transaction) so they can be traced, yet gun owners are asking for copies of ID's, digital pictures, bill of sale etc. when it is not required and does nothing for you. I would not buy a firearm from someone wanting copies of my ID, it does no good and is not required. We have enough laws already, why add more red tape?


Yep. they have been dumb downed.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


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## Fordzilla06 (Oct 14, 2010)

kanga69 said:


> Every gun is registered to the person that bought it new. The registration is not transferred with the sale of the gun when sold private party. The only unregistered guns are the ones bought before they started registering guns. Not sure when that was, but it has been a long time..


That's not how it was explained to me by an FFL dealer. Only guns that are registered, according to my FFL, are class 3 items, (machine guns, sbrs, aows, suppressors). The background check is done at the time of sale by the FFL and paperwork on the gun is stored for two years, and can be disposed of after that at the dealers discretion, according to my FFL, but this was three years ago.


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## mrvmax (May 10, 2012)

Fordzilla06 said:


> That's not how it was explained to me by an FFL dealer. Only guns that are registered, according to my FFL, are class 3 items, (machine guns, sbrs, aows, suppressors). The background check is done at the time of sale by the FFL and paperwork on the gun is stored for two years, and can be disposed of after that at the dealers discretion, according to my FFL, but this was three years ago.


Class 3 is registered via ATF. All other original sales can be tracked through the FFL. Every new firearm goes through an FFL for the first sale and there is a 4473 generated and it has to be logged into the A&D book. The ATF can request the records to see who the original buyer was.


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## Spot-On (May 18, 2010)

Gentelman from oklahoma working in texas and has been for about a year. He wanted to buy one of my hand guns. I was told that if he doesn't have a texas dl i could not sell it. If it was a rifle that would be ok just not a hand gun. 
So is that true?


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## Fresh2Salt (May 21, 2004)

My conscience wouldn't allow me to sell a gun to just anyone. I ask for a valid TX ID but prefer a CHL.


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## Fresh2Salt (May 21, 2004)

Spot-On said:


> Gentelman from oklahoma working in texas and has been for about a year. He wanted to buy one of my hand guns. I was told that if he doesn't have a texas dl i could not sell it. If it was a rifle that would be ok just not a hand gun.
> So is that true?


Across state lines I'm pretty sure an FFL has to get involved for the transfer.


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## ATX 4x4 (Jun 25, 2011)

As mentioned before, a gun can be traced back to the last FFL transaction.

If you didn't buy the gun from an FFL it cannot be traced back to you unless of course you leave finger prints on it.

Or the IP address linked to the classified ad that sold it last or the last bugged phone conversation you had about selling it. If people would just quit following me, I wouldn't be so paranoid!


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

jeffm66 said:


> Almost sounds like it is not worth the trouble. I just had a gun that I didn't want anymore and was going to sell it to buy one that I do want. Doesn't seem worth it to me for $500.


If you want to sell it find an FFL holder and have him do the paper work on the transaction. It used to be easy to find one who would do it $50...cheap insurance on the sell.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showpost.php?p=4598148&postcount=64



> If you want to sell it find an FFL holder and have him do the paper work on the transaction. It used to be easy to find one who would do it $50...cheap insurance on the sell.


I will do any transfer for $20


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I take their money, they take their gun.

TH


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## mrvmax (May 10, 2012)

Fresh2Salt said:


> Across state lines I'm pretty sure an FFL has to get involved for the transfer.


Yep


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## Pocketfisherman (May 30, 2005)

I sell to only CHL owners or member's of my rifle club. I would rather benefit people who support shooting sports and the 2nd amendment.


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