# Lake Livingston Submerged Bridges



## GaryI

As a fisherman and a civil engineer, I have a keen interest in the submerged bridges on LL. I have seen eight on my downscan - 7 along the old 190 roadbed, and Kickapoo. I am still struggling using the downscan to see the profiles accurately. I typically wander off course a bit, or get distracted by a fish on the line and go off course. I downloaded the USGS photos from the 1950s to get a feel for what they looked like in their original condition. A few of the pictures are attached for the Trinity bridge, the Kickapoo bridge, and the Hell's Half Acre bridge.


My main question is this - why do so many of the bridges now appear to be damaged, and specifically missing the center section? For the two bridges with raised steel trusswork (Trinity and Kickapoo), I can understand the logic for destroying the center span and reducing the height of the steel truss obstruction. But several of the other bridges, such as Hell's Half Acre, also appear to be damaged/destroyed in the center and I don't understand the logic for that. I have also noticed that a number of the raised approach spans appear damaged. I would have thought that these bridges would be primarily intact. But, perhaps I am not interpreting the downscan correctly, and what looks like damage to me is just due to boat angle or something else. I have only been fishing this lake for a short time, so I am sure that many of you have seen these bridges often and have a much better understanding of them.

Gary


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## whsalum

Where are ya Sunbeam ?? He has a historic knowledge of the lake construction that is unmatched on here !!


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## SetDaHook

Gary,,,what sequence are those photos? I'm assuming the first is the Trinity River. And X2 on getting Sunbeam to chime in. He will have all the answers.


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## GaryI

SetDaHook,

Sequence is Trinity, Kickapoo, and finally Hells Half Acre.


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## GT11

As everyone else said, Sunbeam will have the answers. Since he may be sleeping late today....

The story I heard on the Trinity bridge is that is was dismantled. There are several stories related to the river/lake coming up and flooding the equipment and/or they dropped the center span in the river and couldn't retrieve it all, etc. They were probably trying to recover scrap and get the structure safely below the water level.

I think there is an old dozer submerged somewhere in the lake and possibly a school bus....after Sunbeam has his cup of coffee, maybe he will feel up to spinning another history tale for us.

I will look for an old thread that answered some of these questions that was started by Kickapoo Duke several years ago.

Edit: Found the thread....http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=362206


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## GaryI

Thanks for the link, GT11. Very interesting.

Attached is a downscan of the submerged Kickapoo bridge that I took this morning, running from north to south, which shows the collapsed center and side spans.


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## GT11

Looks like they took it off the supports and dropped in on the bottom. Where is the Kickapoo bridge? Is it close to the point where you live?


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## GaryI

GT11,

From Onalaska, take FM3186 south 2 miles along the peninsula until the road hits the lake. Before the dam was built, the road continued into the valley, crossing Kickapoo Creek about 1000 ft south of where the road currently ends. That crossing is now the "submerged Kickapoo bridge". Yes, I live very close by, at the end of the peninsula, facing south.

Fishing at that spot for anything besides catfish has not been great this summer/fall, either for myself or for the numerous boats I watch fish that location.

Gary


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## Sunbeam

Okay here we go. This is what I saw with my own eyes.
First the concrete bridges on old 190 over the creeks and oxbows were only partially destroyed. They had a 30 ton truck mounted latices boom crane with a heavy wrecking ball. They used it to break the road bed out of the bridges and to break up the approach road bed.
The did not intentionally demolish the concrete side rails on the bridges. Why they did not remove the railing (banisters) has always puzzled me since they were the highest point.
The last time I saw the steel box truss on the Kickapoo bridge it was laying in the creek bed. A few workers were cutting it up with gas torches and hauling out the pieces with a crane. I never went back there after that day so I do not know how much they actually did remove. Most people do not realize that Kickapoo did not have much water before the lake. It looked similar to Long King creek that crosses US 190 near Walmart in Livingston. During dry weather the only flow was small stream from the big springs in Rocky Creek about two miles above the lake boundary.
I was watching the crew working on the 190 bridge when it fell in the river. I was parked nearby when it happened.
The demolition crew was cutting the small bracing on the box truss when there was a couple of pops and bang and down it went. I believe that it was planned since no one was hurt or seemed surprised although a crane on a float was damaged. I came back about a week later and they were cutting up the steel truss in the river bed. It was shortly after that they blocked access by barricading the road about half way from the river to the existing east shore so I never returned by road. 
The dam was closed in October 1968 and it was months before there was enough water to launch a jon boat and go up and down the river. I can not remember if I ever saw what remained of the 190 bridge before it was covered by water.
As to equipment in the lake. My partner in Triple Creek marina, Nolan Achley of Leggetrt Lumber Co., had a contract to cut and remove timber inside the "blue top" stakes below new 190. He had trouble getting to some stands around Walkers lake, the big ox bows along the river and on the west shore where Cape Royale now stands. That was due to a very wet year. By the time in was dry enough to cut timber the lake had flooded most of it. He did not lose any equipment but did get sued by TRA for not completing his contract. He won.
The contractor cutting in the upper area had a much harder time. The lake flooded their access road in to the cut site on the west shore near what is now Waterwood.
There is Cat dozers and Ford skidder tractors on the flooded river bank straight across from Hank's Marina. (believe it is called Outback now) They tried to move them over a hastily built log road by the lake came up faster than they could road build.
The last time I was there the timber was still standing but you could find the equipment with a sounder. I assume it is still there since it had about eight feet over water over the hood on the skidder.
Some interesting items. 
That farm on the east bank was a dairy. They had a large silo that was knocked over but stayed mostly intact. It was beaten down into a huge pile of concrete chunks. When it was covered by about eight feet of water it was the home of half of the catfish in Livingston. I could go through two containers of Catfish Charlie in one night. At 50 cents a pound it was my cash cow.

One of those trees on the bank a few hundred yards north of the dairy was a huge pecan tree. It remained standing for at least 20 years after the flooding. It was the beacon to find the bridge long before graph fish finders and GPS.

So that is the rest of the story.


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## GT11

I knew you were close to the end of the peninsula. There is also a submerged railroad bed through there and it could have another bridge....also a small dam around there somewhere.

So it sounds like the lake would be a lot less stumpy if the weather would have been dry back in the late 60's. I need to play around one weekend to find the dairy farm and some of the other submerged items. I have picked up numerous submerged bridges on 190.


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## GaryI

GT11,

I have attached a picture of the dammed lake, which is in the cove just west of FM3186. I have drawn the approximate current shoreline in a black line. I have caught a few fish in there but not a lot. Also, the railroad crossing is shown in the second picture. There is no bridge there, but there may be some structure at each end because I have caught fish in that area.

Gary


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## GaryI

Sunbeam,

Thanks very much for the detailed explanation. That confirms my observation that the concrete bridges on old 190 were partially destroyed. I am sure they had some logic for it, but I can't understand why they went through the cost and effort to destroy them. They would have been better fish structures intact. The steel truss bridges (Trinity and Kickapoo) were a potential obstacle at the normal lake elevation, but the flat concrete ones would have been fine. Maybe they were concerned with boats hitting these flat bridges before the lake reached its normal pool elevation. 

I am surprised to hear that workers were cutting up and hauling out the Kickapoo bridge trusswork. Looks like there still is plenty on the seafloor!

Gary


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## Flyingvranch

Hey Gary, where are you getting these great aerial photographs from? I would really love to see more as I have a lot of family history from this area before the lake was built.

Hope this does not hijack this great thread, but does anyone remember all the cars that went into the lake at the old 190 boat launch in Point Blank? In the late seventies there where many cars that missed the new detour and went straight through the boat launch ramp and into the water. (about 3 ft deep I think.) I remember one evening after dark fishing from our bulkhead in Forrest Cove I could hear a loud car hauling butt down the road. I said to myself he's not going to stop and sure enough he launched out into the water with a big splash. By the time Dad and I got over there someone had called the sheriff and they were on the scene. They left the car ( a convertible Cadillac) in the water till daylight which was a mistake. The next morning on the way to the Hop Stop store in Point Blank, I saw that a big ole Coke truck (I think) had launched also and was sitting smack on top of the Cadillac! Dad took a Polaroid picture but it has long since been lost I think. Those where some wild times in a wild area back then for sure!
Bud


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## GT11

Gary, where did you get the pictures? They are much better than the ones from this thread in 2010.

http://www.2coolfishing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289101


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## SetDaHook

GaryI said:


> Thanks for the link, GT11. Very interesting.
> 
> Attached is a downscan of the submerged Kickapoo bridge that I took this morning, running from north to south, which shows the collapsed center and side spans.


Now I know why I've had so many hang ups in that area. Every time I fish there I lose at least one slab. Thanks for the screenshot.


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## GaryI

GT11,

It's pretty easy (and free) to obtain those pictures. It is the same site from the thread that you linked. The difference is that I downloaded the high resolution pictures instead of the medium. The thread says that each high resolution download is $30, but they have always downloaded for free for me. Each photo is about a 85 MB download.

The site is: http://earthexplorer.usgs.gov/ You will need to create a login account, which is easy and free. Also, for some reason, the high resolution pictures are compressed (but barely so) in a ".gz" format. I had to download a free program called "7-zip" to decompress the file into a .tif format, which most graphics programs can open. I then saved the final result in .jpg format.

Just follow this sequence to find and download the photos:
1. Zoom the map in on Lake Livingston (or wherever you are looking)
2. For the Search Criteria tab, click on Use Map in the Coordinates section, and then click on the point on the map where you want to query the database. It is easiest to use a single map point, instead of an area, because an area generates a lot of results.
3. For the Date Range tab, search from March 1, 1958 to March 31, 1958 (actual photo date is 3/14/58).
4. For the Data Sets tab, expand Aerial Imagery and select the Aerial Photo Single Frames box.
5. Click on Results. Hopefully it will generate a reasonable number (<10). To sort through them, click on the footprint icon to see where the photo is on the map.
6. To download a photo, click on the corresponding Download Options icon. The downloads take a while to start, but after starting they go pretty fast.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Gary


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## GaryI

GT11,

Also, the USGS photos always seem to be in an incorrect orientation, but you should be able to figure that out. The hardest part for me, because I was working with a large area, was piecing all of the individual maps together so that the end result is fairly seamless. I wanted a large pre-dam map of the part of the midlake area where I spend most of my time fishing. Each map is only 2 miles square, so I had to work with pieces of 10 maps. I attached below a very small resolution version of the composite mosaic. I added the shoreline in a black outline (approximate) in the top part of the photo, but the outline does not show up well in this low resolution version. If any of you want a high resolution 50 MB version of this map mosaic I created, from where I cropped the pictures earlier in this thread, you can download here from my Google site for free: 
http://drive.google.com/file/d/0B56vLmOIgVfMQnRQalZwX0dLajg/view?usp=sharing

Gary


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## GT11

Thanks, I was planning to do the same!


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## Sunbeam

Gary, Thanks for the mosaic. I once had some 36" X 36" black and white USGA aerial photos of those same photos. My partner used them to locate isolated timber tracks.

Your photos show the old WBT&S railroad right of way from the road junction that became new Onalaska down to where it crossed Penwagh Slough. The railroad ran from Weldon to Trinity to Livingston. It tied into the T&NO (Southern Pacific in Texas) right about where Shadslingers house stands in Livingston. The letters stand for Waco, Beaumont,Trinity and Sabine but the locals called it the Wobble Bobble Turnover and Stop.
There was a daily train that carried passengers and timber products. The operation ceased in 1959 when the last locomotive was condemned. The tracks from Onalaska hill to Trinity were removed in 1961. That included the part that crosses the lake. The right of way berm is still there.

One feature you can mark on your maps is a diversion ditch that the railroad excavated to drain flood waters from Brushy Creek. The RR crossed Brushy creek very near where the FM 356 road crosses it north of Onalaska. The ditch runs from the creek near the bridge in a SW direction until it runs into the river right under the 190 high bridge. It has silted in but in is still very predominate on a sounder. I have caught many very large blue cats in the lower end of the ditch. Back in the early hay day when the walls were well defined in the mid 70's the ditch was a must stop to catch limits of LMB on worms and divers.
Another feature in the old road beds in the saw mill town of the original Onalaska. They are on the east side of the river about 1/2 mile below the high bridge. The mill shut down in the early 20's but the town was not completely abandon until the lake was filled.
There was a small hill on the south edge of town. Covered in small trees and brush. The lake filled around it until it was 3/4 covered. Then one day it floated away! It was the old sawdust pile from the saw mill. For months the lake had many old black chunks of decayed sawdust floating around. Some were as big as a car.


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## SeaOx 230C

I think I have seen the same abandoned railroad track berm but South of Livingtston off 146 Down Duff Road then down what my Grandmother called.Tram road I think. She had five acres back there and there was a "hump" about RR track wide that went thru it. She said it was where the train track used to be. She was born in Camden and raised in the Livingston area. She talked about as girl riding in the wagon on Tram Rd. And what is now 146.


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## Sunbeam

That tram was a logging railroad built by the Carter Bros. Lumber company. The locomotive on display in Livingston is one of theirs. The main mill was in Camden so back in the early part of the 1900's rail was the only way to move large logs if the mill was not on the river. Carter Bros had temporary tram lines all over East Texas.
Back in the early 70's there was five or six old steam locos at the old Camden mill. I am sure they are gone now. There is a big demand for steam rail to be restored.
The WBT&S served the the saw mill that is behind the golf course in Livingston plus the mills north of Trinity.
BTW I am a rail fan deluxe. I have a small fortune tied up in HO models. I have studied every rail road in Texas and modeled a few.


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## SeaOx 230C

Thanks Sunbeam, I never new any of that. It's amazing how much history is out there hidden under the lakes and in the woods just waiting to be found.


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## SetDaHook

Sunbeam, you need to write a book about the history of LL and surrounding areas. Seriously! I love history and find that kind of stuff fascinating and I'm sure others do too.


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## sylvan

I have never been on the lake. In fact, I'm not a freshwater fisherman but this thread is interesting and I have enjoyed the maps and history.
thank you


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## Dennis_Christian

Hello! Iâ€™m new to the forum today having learned of it from GaryL this week. Iâ€™ve been on ********************** since 2009. I do believe I have something to offer to this thread and in general regarding fishing on Lake Livingston since I have fished Livingston since 1973. Ninety-nine percent of my fishing time there has been the mid-lake area and most of that on old 190 roadbed with most of that fishing the submerged bridges. I will share a post below on how I fish the bridges. My knowledge of the bridges does not include what went on before the lake was made but from the great many times I have sonar scanned and fished each bridge. 
My Mom had a place on Penwa Slough, and we named the bridges based on accessing them from that direction. The 1st bridge, which we rarely fished, we didnâ€™t name. It is almost due south of the west tip of Indian Hills Point The bridge is very short and the creek it is over not much deeper than its banks making it a poor structure. But there is an intact bridge there. (Note: I see where someone above said the bridge surfaces were knocked out. I found this to be true for Kickapoo, a portion of the Trinity River bridge and the center 3rd of the 1st bridge east of the Trinity . The others fish as if the surfaces were intact so I believe they are intact. That is, I can walk a bait across the surface of the bridge then up and over the rail on either side) The next bridge going west we called the First Bridge. Itâ€™s surface and rails are intact, and it is 30 to 50 ft long. The bridge surface depth is about 12 ft (the same for all bridges), and depth is 20 something ft under the bridge. We have caught tons of white bass on it and like most of the bridges fishing is usually best at the ends of the bridge â€“ either on the bridge surface, out the roadbed a short ways or off in the bar ditches just outside the ends of the bridge. Our family also developed a way to fish the rails, and Iâ€™ll cover it later. Of course, sometimes we catch the fish casting toward the middle of the bridge on its surface; the closer you can make the bait land to a rail the better. 
Moving farther west the next bridge we called the Middle Bridge. It is about the same length as the First Bridge. Surface depth and depth under the bridge are similar to the First Bridge. Its surface and rails are also intact. Like First Bridge we have caught tons of fish on it. The next bridge to the west is 40 to 50 yards east of the river channel. Itâ€™s about the same length as First and Middle bridges but its center section â€“ at least the road surface is missing. I know because I lost a lot of baits in there before I figured out is was gone and a lot of junk was down under it in the middle. Iâ€™m not sure if the rails in the center section are there are not â€“ itâ€™s been so long ago that I looked for rails there.
The next bridge is the River Channel Bridge. As stated above the superstructure and road surface over the river itself are missing. There is a small piece of it off set just south of the roadbed on the east edge of the river. In the early days I tried to fish this a few times, but it is so trashy Iâ€™d lose too many baits. Also, I could never figure out what the shape of that piece was. Of course, I didnâ€™t have down or side imaging then. On the west side of the river there is a section of the bridge which did not have a superstructure, and it is still intact â€“ surface and rails. Itâ€™s 25 to 30 yards long. Depth under the bridge there is 20 something ft. We always do the best on the west end of this bridge.
The next bridge going west is Hellâ€™s Half Acre Bridge. It is 50 to 60 yards long, and all of it is intact â€“ rails and surface. Water depth under it is 30 something ft. We do the best on the west end of it. East end can also be good. 
There are two more bridge on old 190 both on the west side of the lake. The next one going west from Hellâ€™s Half Acre is roughly about Â¾ of mile from the west side ramp on old 190. We call this bridge the Honey Hole Bridge. In the mid 1970â€™s â€“ when we started fishing the bridge â€“ someone had staked out an inflated car tire there. This bridge appears to have two sections divided by a short bit of roadbed. Water is 20 something ft deep under both parts of the bridge and the rails and bridge surface are intact. We do the best on the west end of the bridge. The last bridge is west of and about 2/3 of the distance from the Honey Hole Bridge to the west end ramp. We call it the Far Bridge, and it is about 35 yards long. The east end of it is definitely the best end of it for fishing. Depth under the bridge in 20 to 30 ft. All of its surface and rails are intact.
We also fish both ends of Kickapoo Bridge. The very end of the north side has a short section of roadbed with some surface and rails. The south end has what seems to be a very short section of bridge with rails and not connected to the south end. We usually donâ€™t try to find and fish this short section, but fish the end of the roadbed at the edge of where the bridge used to be.
I now live on Cedar Creek Lake and really miss fishing Livingston. I try to get down there at least once a year, and hope to hook up with GaryI next time.

Here is a TFF post of how we fish submerged bridges:
Fall 2009
About "rail fishing" for whites: You have to use the inline spinner technique for this to work. When fishing is slow, try "rail fishing". Locate a bridge and position the boat directly over one edge of it. You will be right over one rail and the other will be about 20 ft away running parallel to it. You can fish the rail 2 ways. The most productive way is to cast the inline spinner far enough to go over the opposite rail out into the deep water. Let it go to bottom then crank it back a few turns and let it go to bottom again. Crank it in some more and when the spinner gets close enough to the rail, you can feel the drag of the line coming over the rail. Keep cranking at a medium to medium fast speed so the spinner will not hook the rail. When the spinner clears the rail, you will feel a let-up on line tension (assuming a fish didn't latch on as it came over). Immediately release and let the bait drop just this side of the rail. When it hits the bottom, take up slack and crank several times as usual. If no bite, try a 2nd crank on top of bridge. You catch the most fish on the 1st crank this side of the rail. You will also catch a lot as spinner comes over top of rail and on 2nd crank after you come over rail. 
The other way to rail fish is to make medium length cast down the bridge just inside the rail you are sitting over. Just work the inline spinner technique parallel to rail and on top of bridge close to the rail all the way back to boat. All the bridges (at Lake Livingston on Old 190) have intact rails except the 1st one east of the river channel. The rails are OK on each end of it but the middle section of bridge is out. 
My family and friends have been using this to catch whites since the early eighties. When fishing is really tough, you can usually catch them this way. Good luck and feel free to ask questions if I didn't explain it well enough.

Fall 2009

To a fellow who said he needed help fishing Lake Livingston:
I assume you have a topo map of the lake. Locate old hwy 190. It goes all the way across the lake at mid-lake area. From west of Indian Hills point (which is on east side of lake) all the way to the west side of lake the top of the roadbed averages 12 to 14 ft deep with 20+ ft water on both sides. Whites can be anywhere along it but, the best fishing is on the submerged bridges and just off each end of them. There are 3 bridges east of the river channel and 4 bridges west of it. Find the roadbed a little west of Indian Hills Point then follow it west. From this point to the river channel the roadbed is in line with a large light blue building on the far west side. To find the bridges get on the roadbed shoulder (about 17 ft) and go toward the blue building keeping depth at 17 ft. When you come to a bridge the bottom will suddenly drop to 20+ feet (the creek the bridge goes over). The bridge structure is intact, so if you were on the right shoulder swing around to the left and go back and forth over the roadbed until you see the bridge. The bridges have rails on both sides 7-8 ft deep. The middle of the bridges is about 10 ft deep. Locate and set up at either end of the bridge and cast in 4 directions to find fish: down the roadbed, diagonally into the bar ditch to either side and down the middle of the bridge. Try not to let your lure land on the rails or it will likely get hung up. The whites hang out at end of bridges and within 2 to 3 ft of the rails on top of the bridge. You don't have to find them surfacing. They are down there. I fished Livingston for 25 years and now live on Cedar Creek. Went down to Livingston twice this year - once to fish with my sister who lives there and once to fish with fiend who has a place there. Fished the bridges both times. Sister and I caught 110 whites from 7:30 am to 11:30 am in early July. Friend and I caught 206 from 7:45 am to about 1:30 pm in early August. Most were 13 to 14 inches and all caught working the bridges - none on surface feeding fish. The bridge on the river channel was dynamited when lake was created but there is a 20 yard section of it on the west side of river. Also, just west of the river channel bridge the roadbed turns about 10 degrees to the left as you are moving in western direction. Two-thirds of the way across the lake going west it turns about 5 degrees back right. There is one bridge in the section of roadbed after it turns left 10 degrees. It is called Hell's Half Acre. After roadbed turns back right 5 degrees there are two more bridges.


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## GaryI

Dennis,

Welcome to the forum! We can certainly use your knowledge and experience here. Please also comment on my other recent post, White Bass Fishing Advice, which is a compilation of some of the notes that you posted several years ago on the Texas Fishing Forum. I am sure that I missed a few things.

Gary Imm
Onalaska


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## GaryI

One more aerial photo of the Onalaska peninsula, from 1972 after the lake was filled. In case any of you were wondering why you may have hit a stump in this area. Very few of these trees are visible above water any more. Note Dove Island at mid-right of the photo, which has since been eroded and now peaks about 3 ft below the surface.


Gary


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## whsalum

I caught millions of channel cat tied to the line of stumps and trees just south and southeast of Dove Island in the late 70's. Catfish CharlIe "B" was bought by the tub full. Spent many nights on the island as well when I was a young man. My father in law ran a Marina on the inlet just west of the end of FM3186 for Lewis Fair. Great memories in these pics !!


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## GaryI

For those of you who want to see the topography of the lake, I have found this free Navionics web site / app to be the best tool:
http://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=en#@12&key=_b{zDhnncQ


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## Dennis_Christian

Sunbeam, were all the buildings that were covered by the lake knocked down before hand or were some left standing and, if so, where are they?


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## CarolinaPartimer

GaryI said:


> For those of you who want to see the topography of the lake, I have found this free Navionics web site / app to be the best tool:
> http://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=en#@12&key=_b{zDhnncQ


Great thread going here! Good to see Mr. Christian aboard. I'm ready to go to the roadbed and try those bridge methods out. 
The maps are interesting too. Combining Navionics with the 1958 aerials has some possibilities. A crude version attached... They don't quite match up, but close. I need to find a source for high resolution lake topo maps to overlay with high res aerials though. Zooming in doesn't work!


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## Sunbeam

Dennis_Christian said:


> Sunbeam, were all the buildings that were covered by the lake knocked down before hand or were some left standing and, if so, where are they?


During the '66 to '68 time frame I was coming up every weekend to the area looking around for land that was to be water front on the new lake. At that time some of the farm building were vacant, some were gone with only foundations and a few were still be occupied.
I am not sure what the schedule was for people to evacuate the property since most of the title transfers I saw at the Polk county courthouse were dated in the early '60s. TRA (code name for City of Houston) must have had title to all of the land before they actually started building the dam. The dam was closed to fill the lake in Oct 1968 but I am not sure when actual construction started. 
When the lake began to fill I can not remember seeing one house or barn standing. But bear in mind after the new 190 bypass above the lake was opened it was difficult to access a lot of the bottom land because the bridges were blocked. I used the dirt roads but they were not always passable due to wet conditions even with my 4X4. It seemed like it rained a lot more then than now.
TRA gave an average on $140 an acre for the tillable land but only $40 for undeveloped land. 
The timber and paper companies sold some and traded for other tracts but the individual land owners did not have much choice. Eminent domain. The timber companies had acquired thousands of acres in the '30 by just paying back taxes. Cents on the acre. Most was in tax foreclosure due to the depression in the '30s.
Most of the land up Kickapoo and Rocky Creeks belonged to black families. It was partials of land handed down from the slaves that had worked on the Churchwell Plantation.
The plantation covered every thing from near Groveton down the two creeks to where Kickapoo joined the Trinity River. The Churchwell men all went to fight for the South but none survived the war. The carpet baggers ended up with most of the land. The slave families were allowed to keep the land that surrounded the main plantation home on the west bank of Rocky Creek. That was about 800 acres.
Joe Nelson, a good friend, put together 554 acres under one fence between Rocky and Kickapoo by buying land from the blacks that lived on it. He was not interested in waterfront so most he paid was $240 acre. The largest plot was only 44 acres. He bought most after the "good old boys" with money in the three counties had beat the locals out of all of the land that became shore line. They bought land for a song and either developed or sold it and made enough money to burn a wet Missouri mule. The poor locals did not know what those "blue top" stake lines meant.
I know that nothing was left of the old town of Onalaska. Nothing but the sawdust hill and building foundations in 1966.
I got to know some of the foremen on a few of the demo crews so I could get close enough to watch some activities but i did get run off a few times.
I could drive down the haul road below the dam dirt levee and park out of the way. It was a long climb to get to the top of the levee but no one ever asked me to leave.
I spent a few hours there every weekend just to watch the equipment work and to see the progress. It was quite a feat to build that large concrete gate structure with the river running though a channel right beside it.
I was raise around large machinery and always have been interested it heavy construction.
I wish that I could have been there on a daily basis to see all of the work but by the time I got back a week later all had changed.
I was surprised to hear that some of the bridges still had the road bed intact. I know that they beat out the floors in the ones at the river so assumed that all were demolished.
BTW A point of interest, The bridge called the "honey hole" near the west side was one on the best crappie holes I ever fished. When the lake was filling and the bridge railings were only 12" above water every crappie in the lake must have moved in under that bridge. It seemed that everyone flocked around that bridge would catch large stringers for about two months. It was a boat parking lot. After the lake filled it seemed the crappie moved to better locales.
Note I said stringers. Back then there was no creel or length limit. If it was white with black spots you kept it.


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## GaryI

Fantastic response as usual, Sunbeam. Thanks a million. Always enjoy learning more about the history of the lake.


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## Dennis_Christian

Thanks, Sunbeam. So, we should expect to find only foundations or piles of rubble at most at the sites where the topo and aerial maps show buildings within the boundaries of the lake. That's useful info. I set up over an old building foundation recently at Richland Chambers Lake and caught fish after fish. Like bridge hard surfaces, the hard surfaces on foundations in shallow enough water can have algae on them, which attracts shad, which attracts fish.


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## GaryI

Interesting idea, Dennis. I haven't had much luck to date fishing over building foundations - I think many of them may be covered in silt by now. I have a hard time seeing any distinct bottom contours due to rubble on my downscan.


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## Little Mac

Have a question about the a Navonic's page what are the red squares?


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## GaryI

Little Mac,

I searched on the Internet for a while earlier this year and never found an "official" answer. They seem to correspond to underwater landmarks. For Livingston, they are typically old buildings. I could match up many of the squares to buildings on the aerial photo I posted earlier. 

Gary


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## Little Mac

GaryI said:


> Little Mac,
> 
> I searched on the Internet for a while earlier this year and never found an "official" answer. They seem to correspond to underwater landmarks. For Livingston, they are typically old buildings. I could match up many of the squares to buildings on the aerial photo I posted earlier.
> 
> Gary


Thanks Gary I did a search last night with no luck was just curious


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## wwind3

one of the better posts ever---thanx everyone......I too fished the Lake from the early days and now live on it just below Big Johns on Kickapoo. i actually caught bass on a Hawaian Wiggler when the lake was about 5 ft below filling up in Kickapoo---and fished a state Bass Tournament against Ricky Clunn of the Pasadena club and Zell Rowland of Bryan ? Bassmasters. Early 70's out of Bridgeport maybe? Now the KOA and Farmhouse at the Big Bridge. Thanx for all the info....


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## Sac-a-lait Trey

Agree 100% about this being a great post.

Gary, thanks so much for starting the discussion. Putting all of the electronic data, the old photos, and first-hand accounts makes for incredibly interesting reading.

Sunbeam, thanks for sharing your experiences from the 1960s. Your description of the "honey hole" bridge supports my idea that a well-designed artificial crappie structure should incorporate space for the fish to swim underneath it.


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## Sunbeam

Sac-a-lait Trey said:


> Agree 100% about this being a great post.
> 
> Gary, thanks so much for starting the discussion. Putting all of the electronic data, the old photos, and first-hand accounts makes for incredibly interesting reading.
> 
> Sunbeam, thanks for sharing your experiences from the 1960s. Your description of the "honey hole" bridge supports my idea that a well-designed artificial crappie structure should incorporate space for the fish to swim underneath it.


Very true. In the early 90's I helped a doctor friend of mine move 20 large 36" x 4' concrete culvert sections to one of his large ponds near Clinton OK. The pond had large blue cat but they never spawned. He was told that they needed holes to nest in to successfully spawn so he placed the the used pipes in the 20' deep end of the pond. (That was a logistics nightmare)
We were never sure if the cats ever used the pipes but all of the crappie and large blue gill certainly did.
The next two years I spent hours standing on the dam and casting a Mepps
out across the culvert field and slowly retrieving across the tops. Huge blue gill and small to medium crappie on nearly ever cast. All of the doctor's ponds were catch and release except for bullheads so there always a supply of nice fish.


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## radkeas

I have lived on Lake Livingston sice I was 4 (I am currently 28). I used to talk to Robert everyday (owner of the old R+M tackle when galloways was still around). He told me about the old railroad tracks, the logging equipment, and the schoolbus that fell off of the bridge. I have been able to find most of this stuff but I can't find the logging equipment. I believe it has been silted in. I was homeschooled up until highschool so I spent alot of time on the Lake after my school work was done. I found a very small schoolbus that is stranded on an island at the very north end in robs lake. I've found arrowheads when the lake was at its lowest. And Ive found a very old chinese tallow tree in the jungle area that I am almost positive someone planted as a decoration around their house. I have a degree in Forestry from SFA, and you just dont find tallows that large/old. If anyone has any interesting facts or photos of the North end I would love to hear about them. Sunbeam, if you are ever bored, I would love to buy you a beer or take you fishing and hear some more stories.


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## Sunbeam

Radkeas, I would love to take you up on that offer. I am presently in forsaken western Oklahoma regenerating a business that belongs to my wife. But rest assured that like MacArthur "I shall return"

My first business venture on LL was at Hank's Marina. I leased it from Hank Anglin in January 1970 after his son had made a real mess of it. I only stayed for six months. I got tired of counting my fingers every time I shook hands with that old horse thief. 
I moved south to complete building Triple Creek marina with Nolan Achley.

In 1970 what timber that was flooded in the upper was still green. The shallow water under that timber was a solid mat of duck weed. (the small clover leaf shaped float plant) Wild hog and deer would wade out belly deep to eat it.
As the lake filled it flooded out all of the wildlife. Temporary islands were formed and then later submerged. Snakes were every where. Some of the biggest rattlers and copperheads I have ever seen. We had a board full of Polaroid pics we called the snake of the week.
Pop, the old semi hermit commercial fisherman that lived in the old school bus on the river bank just up stream from Hank's moved out when he found a six foot diamond back that had spent the night in bed with him.
During those times the hunting and fishing was much different than now. Trinity county along with Polk and San Jacinto were the last counties to convert to TP&W general law.
At that time the county commissioners made all of the game laws that did not pertain to migratory birds. They followed the state's recommendations on when the seasons opened but the commissioners set bag and creel limits. So it was almost a sportsman wild west.
Every ******* had a yard full of deer hounds. There were two fellows in Trinity that made and sold gill nets and hoop traps by the hundreds. 
Between 1965 and 1968 two TP&W game wardens were shot. One died and one left the service shortly after.
Galloway's was one of the largest and best run marina. They were building the main building the first time I drove up 356 in 1969. They had one of the best locations on the lake. 
During the first ten years after LL started filling I would say 85% of all of the fish caught daily came from above 190. I know that the LMB were twice the size and much more prevalent than Kickapoo or the lower west side creeks.


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## radkeas

I sure do miss having Galloways. The property was just leased and they are cleaning it to re-open. I really want to buy the property that adjoins it (the old Colby's place) and make a true fishing lodge out of it. Unfortunately, the price of realestate on the lake has sky rocketed and all we have moving in now are the rich and famous. The thing I miss the most id Ms. Virginia's little cafe' across the street. Did any of you ever have the oppurtunity to fill up at the floating gas station?


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## SeaOx 230C

I remember when I was 7 or 8 years old my brother worked at Galloways. I would walk over there thru the woods and stock a drink cooler for a container of mighty mealy worms. 

I would then go to the boat houses and Cath tons of perch. I could sell those perch to my Dad and his Buddies in the neighborhood for five cents each. They would use them for trot line bait. We lived in Jungle Village right up the road.


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## CmackR56

The 1st two are bridges on 190 West of the river, the las is the West end of the river bridge.


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## DJ77360

*Pics*



CmackR56 said:


> The 1st two are bridges on 190 West of the river, the las is the West end of the river bridge.


 Very nice pics!


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## GaryI

CmackR56 said:


> The 1st two are bridges on 190 West of the river, the las is the West end of the river bridge.


Great pictures - thanks for posting.


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## Kpalm

My first time posting here but I'm really interested in seeing a map of Lake Livingston with notations of items that have been submerged when it was flooded, such as the dairy farm, bridges, etc. Does such a thing exist? Thanks, Kristin


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## glenpaud

Kpalm - you might try Hook-N-Line maps. I had one I bought in the early '80's that had many of the bridges, wells, submerged graves, silos, etc. marked. 
I see they now have SD cards for most fishfinders. 
Don't know how detailed those would be.https://hooknline.net/
BTW, this is a wonderful thread you've attached to, with some great posts! I enjoyed reading over them again!


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## GaryI

Glad you enjoyed the thread, Glen. The years roll on but the lake doesn't change all that much.


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