# recommend a chip



## capt mullet (Nov 15, 2008)

not interested in power just fuel economy. can anyone suggest a chip that will improve gas mileage for a late model f250 with a 6.4? and aproximate cost if you know

thanks
Craig


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## HOO'S NEXT (Aug 22, 2009)

There has been lots of discussion on this subject if you do a search. For a quick answer however, you pretty much have to add power to gain fuel economy. I know it doesn't sound right but that is how it works. There are no chips or programmers that add fuel economy without adding power, that I know of. For example, I am running a Spartan Programmer on my 6.4 PS and the best economy for me is with the +275 hp tune installed, around 22+/-mpg depending on conditions with 33X12.50X18 Nitto's. Also remember that the DPF on the newer trucks is what kills your fuel economy as well as your engine, and while not all programmers require removal of the DPF removal of the DPF does require a programmer be installed. Spartan in my opinion makes the best product for the newer Ford trucks and when I bought mine last year it ran me about $1800.00 for the programmer loaded with tunes to +310 hp a 4" down pipe back exhaust and S&B stage 2 cold air intake. With the amount of mileage I put on my truck, I have paid for about 1/3 to 1/2 of it at this point on my fuel savings. I know you said you are not interested in the added power but there really isn't any way around it. Spartan has tunes that allow you to leave the DPF on the truck but they are no very beneficial. You can call the folks at Spartan and talk with the Mick is very knowledgeable, and will tell you anything you want to know. I know I said a short answer but it's kinda hard when talking about this stuff. PM me if you have any more questions. Here is the link to Spartan http://www.spartandieseltech.com/ Hope this helps

Eric


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## capt mullet (Nov 15, 2008)

thanks for the info hoo. wow I had no idea they were that expensive. I was thinking a few hundred bucks at most. guess I wont be getting one any time soon.


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## DSL_PWR (Jul 22, 2009)

Stay away from Spartan. 

Look at H&S Performance. You can get a nice XRT Pro tuner and DPF/DOC delete for under $900... PM me for info if you are interested, can put you in touch with the right people.

Your mpg gains won't be as extravagant as those claimed by spartan but you will see improvement. 

I ran spartan on my last 6.4 and had nothing but problems. Soon to be running the XRT on my truck as H&S seems to be the leader for the 6.7L and 6.4L Powerstroke now.


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## HOO'S NEXT (Aug 22, 2009)

> I ran spartan on my last 6.4 and had nothing but problems.


What problems were you having and what tune were you running? Just curious, I have been running mine on +275 the last 35,000 miles or so with no problems. Knock on wood. I haven't heard too many folks having problems other than stretched head studs, but I also think those are the ones that can't keep their foot out of it.

Eirc


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## DSL_PWR (Jul 22, 2009)

HOO'S NEXT said:


> What problems were you having and what tune were you running? Just curious, I have been running mine on +275 the last 35,000 miles or so with no problems. Knock on wood. I haven't heard too many folks having problems other than stretched head studs, but I also think those are the ones that can't keep their foot out of it.
> 
> Eirc


Geesh, where to start...
Puking coolant, EGR issues, transmission (tow/haul) shifting issues, not to mention some electrical issues and getting locked out of my own truck. I had tuner error issues when trying to switch tunes, and some reduced engine power issues a few times. All of which was remedied once the spartan tuner was removed. Some people have issues and some don't. I was one that had issues along with a lot of others who switched from spartan to H&S and it was the best decision I made.


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## pwrstrkr (Oct 5, 2010)

HOO'S NEXT said:


> I haven't heard too many folks having problems other than stretched head studs, but I also think those are the ones that can't keep their foot out of it.
> 
> Eirc


also coming from MANY diesel mechanics the worst thing you can do for any diesel truck is baby it. it is better to RUN a diesel than to just cruise around which causes the carbon to build up which can eventually kill the turbo and other things....just something to think about

oh and when i do buy a chip it will either be the H&S or superchips


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## HOO'S NEXT (Aug 22, 2009)

> Geesh, where to start...
> Puking coolant, EGR issues, transmission (tow/haul) shifting issues, not to mention some electrical issues and getting locked out of my own truck. I had tuner error issues when trying to switch tunes, and some reduced engine power issues a few times. All of which was remedied once the spartan tuner was removed. Some people have issues and some don't. I was one that had issues along with a lot of others who switched from spartan to H&S and it was the best decision I made.


That sucks. I have experienced the coolant puking issue, but I just run mine a little low in the band. As for the other issues I have not experienced them. Good luck with the H&S, I hope it treats you better. :cheers:



> also coming from MANY diesel mechanics the worst thing you can do for any diesel truck is baby it. it is better to RUN a diesel than to just cruise around which causes the carbon to build up which can eventually kill the turbo and other things....just something to think about


pwrstrkr I guess my statement was a little misleading, I definitely don't baby my truck, as I love rolling the black smoke just a little too much.:biggrin:
However, I also am not one of the guys that puts it to the firewall every time I pull away from a stop sign or red light or a person that runs 90+ mph everywhere I go. These are the folks I was referring to. That kind of driving is not good for any engine especially diesels that are not designed to turn the high rpm's. Good luck with whatever brand you decide to go with. These trucks are amazing once you fix the engineers screw ups.:cheers:

Eric


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## HOO'S NEXT (Aug 22, 2009)

Sorry Capt Mullet didn't mean to hijack the thread.


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## pwrstrkr (Oct 5, 2010)

HOOS'S NEXT- i smell what your steppin in, im the same way :biggrin:. but to you and dslpwr about puking the cooland, if i was either of yall i would go have the test ran on the degas bottle to see if your getting exhaust gas going up thru it causing it to puke out. also go to the dealer i know on my 03 the EMPTY line on the degas bottle is the FULL line and even after i deleted my EGR if it was too full it would puke out. so IMO i would seriously consider an EGR/DPF(whichever engine your running) delete kit to keep the gas from recirculating. and yes they are amazing trucks with a few little mods on them. But like i have said in other threads EVERY TRUCK IS GOING TO HAVE ITS DOWNFALLS AND THEIR BAD EGGS, and some things that work fantastic on one truck might not work worth a dayum on another truck that is the exact same, its kinda like fishing 2 days in a row and killing them one day on a bait then not catching a thing the next on the same bait.


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## pwrstrkr (Oct 5, 2010)

oh and forgot to mention about the engineers......whoever came up with the BS torque to yield head bolts and this EGR **** needs to be castrated...just sayin


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## capt mullet (Nov 15, 2008)

I got rid of my 6.0 because a buddy of mine had nothing but problems. head bolts, egr and then at 105K the engine blew up. Once I heard that and after hearing a lot of guys in the industry say what a piece of junk that 6.0 was I decided to trade in for a 2010 with the 6.4. But it sound slike It is having the same problems as teh 6.0 from what i am hearing from you guys. Whatever happened to the good ol cummins 5.9 12 valve from 92 and earlier that was absolutely rock solid and would run 500K easy. Everything is so over engineered now that they suck!! my truck is getting about 12 mpg and that sux. That is mostly pulling my boat but it should get better than that.


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## DSL_PWR (Jul 22, 2009)

capt mullet said:


> I got rid of my 6.0 because a buddy of mine had nothing but problems. head bolts, egr and then at 105K the engine blew up. Once I heard that and after hearing a lot of guys in the industry say what a piece of junk that 6.0 was I decided to trade in for a 2010 with the 6.4. But it sound slike It is having the same problems as teh 6.0 from what i am hearing from you guys. Whatever happened to the good ol cummins 5.9 12 valve from 92 and earlier that was absolutely rock solid and would run 500K easy. Everything is so over engineered now that they suck!! my truck is getting about 12 mpg and that sux. That is mostly pulling my boat but it should get better than that.


Well I have a 2010 F350 now and I get 18 on the highway stock and about 15 around town. Once I get the tuner on and the dpf/doc delete I would like to see at least 20-21 on the highway. Not concerned with in town.

Good luck..


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## C BISHOP (Dec 4, 2007)

i got a 2010 6.4 with a sct cat/dpf delete , i stayed with the stock exhaust pipe size , which saved some money , my mpg iam getting right isn't what i expected (11-14 around town) but iam getting 18-20 on the highway going 65mph , i only got 3,700 miles on the truck so it should get better with more miles on the truck. The tuner and the pipe out the door cost me $850. I got it from http://www.dpfdeletekits.com


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## pwrstrkr (Oct 5, 2010)

give these guys right here a call and they can hook you up with whatever you need for any 6.0, 6.4, and 6.7 PSD. they also have free shipping in the 48 continious so you will save a little money there. but these are some really nice guys that are all ford fanatics and know all these trucks inside and out


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## HOO'S NEXT (Aug 22, 2009)

pwrstrkr you could not be more correct about different trucks and the problems folks experience with them. As for the test you are referring on the coolant puking issue, I will have to research it a little more and see if I can do it myself. I really don't want to return the truck to stock as I have not found a mod friendly shop around here yet, just mostly ones that want to void your warranty without having any mods installed.

And to you capt mullet I wish I had an answer to where the bullet proof diesels of yesteryear went. I wish all the time that I had never gotten rid of my 7.3. The engineers today have their heads so far up their arses it isn't even funny. It also doesn't help that the retards in Washington are passing more stringent emissions laws constantly. Hopefully that will change with the new GOP Congress. 

Eric


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## DSL_PWR (Jul 22, 2009)

Well I only had puking issues with my first 08 F250 spartan setup. After I got rid of the spartan and went with H&S on my last truck I didn't have any issues at all. Getting ready to install everything on this truck, hopefully this weekend and know that I will not have any issues at all.


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## pwrstrkr (Oct 5, 2010)

there is a shop down the road from where i live and they are ford certified DIESEL mechanics. they are pretty reasonable priced shop. also you can pm me and i can send you a guys info from sour lake that has done all the work i could not do myself and all the work on a few friends trucks with no complaints and will beat anyones prices. but if you want to drive to the Port Arthur area look up Prejeans automotive off of twin city hwy and they are one of the ones that i know for sure that run the test for the emissions gas coming up thru the degas bottle, and are one of the few reputable shops i would recommend. I think when i brought my truck in there i had a full diagnostic, computer upgrade, and the degas bottle test ran for somewhere around $80.


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## pwrstrkr (Oct 5, 2010)

capt. mullet- i would also recommend looking into the SCT performance chips also


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## fishnfool (Jul 23, 2004)

Just getting rid of the DPF will make your milegae much better. If you don't care about the power, which program you buy really doesn't matter other than making sure it is "offroad" use meaning removes DPF.

You need to buy a delete pipe to replace the DPF and a tuner of your choice that will delete it. It is true the 6.4 can make ridiculous power and gets better mileage in the hotter programs, but you will get a significant increase and save your motor just removing the EPA ****.

I have a 2010 and am running Innovative Diesel Tunes. I think they are the best and have run spartan but not some of the others. BUT - don't worry about whose is best, just get rid of DPF. You can do that with a basic SCT that is much cheaper.

SCT and delete pipe - add a little power, get rid of DPF, increase mileage and motor longevity.

Only concern is warranty and inspection sticker - takes 45 minutes to have back to stock for either of those.

The 6.4 does have some puking issues when really beat on but it is leaps and bounds better than the 6.0 (I've had and modified both), and it can lay down 500+ rear wheel hp easily and reliably. I've been running Innovatives X Street for 30k miles with no issues of any kind while making 500+ and getting 17-22mpg depending on driving.

www.dpfdeletekits.com is one place that has lots of options.


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## KEMPOC (Aug 24, 2010)

This response is a huge mistake! I know you guys are going to pounce on me like a frog on a June Bug but I just cant resist.

When you buy and install a programer, whether your goal is power of fuel economy, remember that NOTHING is free. 

A programer makes sense if your goal is power. Remember though, it will come at the expense of engine and drive train life. If you want the power because it feels good I understand and respect that. If you think you need the power to pull something, not so - you have plenty stock.

Fuel economy on the other hand - bad idea. To realize any fuel savings you have to first recover the cost of the programer. That takes lots of gallons of saved fuel. Then, remember that saving that fuel will come at the expense of engine life. The manufacturers do not pump fuel through the engine just to make OPEC happy. That extra fuel serves to cool the cylider head temp (CHT). The engine will make more power on less fuel but at the expense of CHT. Ultimately, to the demise of the engine. If you trade often, as I do, no big deal. However, if you need to or want to drive that rig down many happy trails, you just cant make out in the long run. While saving enough fuel to pay for your programer you will shorten you engine life enough to offset the future fuel savings.

To each - his own. If you want power in the pedal for the sport of it and dont care about the negatives, a programer is a good thing. However, if economy is your objective, spend the cost of that programer on a new set of batteries for you boat.


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## fishnfool (Jul 23, 2004)

KEMPOC said:


> This response is a huge mistake! I know you guys are going to pounce on me like a frog on a June Bug but I just cant resist.
> 
> When you buy and install a programer, whether your goal is power of fuel economy, remember that NOTHING is free.
> 
> ...


The piece you are missing is the harm to the engione and fuel economy lost by having EGR and DPF to meet emissions standards out there now. If you are not worried about your truck meeting those standards (that is a whole different topic that I'm not getting into), then you can extend the life of your engine and substantially increase fuel mileage simply by removing DPF and turning off EGR. This takes a programmer but doesn't require any other changes in factory programming if you want to leave it stock.

I agree adding power can increase fuel milegae and puts more strain on all components. I do it and still get lots of miles out of motors but agree with you there.


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## capt mullet (Nov 15, 2008)

Sorry guys I have never spent any time on this forum and although I am an engine expert by my former occupation I am not familiar with the term DPF.

Can someone pleae tell me what the abbreviation stands for

thanks
Craig


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## DSL_PWR (Jul 22, 2009)

capt mullet said:


> Sorry guys I have never spent any time on this forum and although I am an engine expert by my former occupation I am not familiar with the term DPF.
> 
> Can someone pleae tell me what the abbreviation stands for
> 
> ...


Diesel Particulate Filter. The huge can under the truck, it is used to filter particulates out of the diesel exhaust in attempts to clean the air better. As it becomes clogged from gray matter, exhaust dust, and soot, then the truck goes in REGEN, which dumps diesel into that can to burn out those particulates that have collected. Both a waste of diesel and effort as those particulates (for the most part) are still released into the atmosphere, just in more burned fashion.

Removal of the emissions equip will stop this process (with the proper tuner, exhaust installed) and allow the truck to operate much better. Less resistance to exhaust flow, using less fuel to operate truck, and more power = better operating vehicle all around.


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## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

KEMPOC said:


> This response is a huge mistake! I know you guys are going to pounce on me like a frog on a June Bug but I just cant resist.
> 
> When you buy and install a programer, whether your goal is power of fuel economy, remember that NOTHING is free.
> 
> ...


I agree with this...for the most part...on the newer diesel trucks. As for the older diesel trucks of say 5-15 years ago...not true in any form or fashion.


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## KEMPOC (Aug 24, 2010)

bwguardian said:


> I agree with this...for the most part...on the newer diesel trucks. As for the older diesel trucks of say 5-15 years ago...not true in any form or fashion.


OK - I will bite. What part of what I said does not apply to an older truck? Feel free to disertate on any level as I am am expert in the operation of the internal combustion engine. (I dont mean that as snotty as it sounds - I just mean that if you have a complex concept I can understand it).


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## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

KEMPOC said:


> OK - I will bite. What part of what I said does not apply to an older truck? Feel free to disertate on any level as I am am expert in the operation of the internal combustion engine. (I dont mean that as snotty as it sounds - I just mean that if you have a complex concept I can understand it).


We have a bunch of the 01-03 Powerstokes...one being a 96 in anything from an Excursion to an F550 and vary in mileage from 50,000 to 300,000 miles. Almost all trucks have had intake and exhaust work along with a programer. The Excursion is my wifes grocery getter while the F550 is a work horse and may have 8,000 lbs. in the bed or 21,000 lbs. in tow...so you can see the extremes. These engines are all stock other than the aforesaid items...so they have iron heads, forged internals, roller cam, floating wrist pins, etc.

All our trucks programers were purchased for around 150-200 bucks and with the other intake exhaust items it talleys about 250-300 bucks, so the difference in mileage of 2 mpg average is not that hard to offset. I won't go into the fact about biodiesel being made for a hell of alot less, plus the fact it is way better for the engines than this ultra low sulphur fuel we now are stuck with; however, that puts you back where you started relative to the mileage and the programer. We don't go crazy on the horsepower...typically set on the 70 hp tune but it does help on mileage and we have noticed no issues on excessive engine wear...I have been into a couple. Even Ford has bumped the hp on these engines over the years via a new tune...has nothing to do with the internals. I understand your point about the fuel helping to cool the heads but I also know how large of a cooling system these Superduty's have...never had one ever think about over heating.

I believe the newer engines having aluminum heads and the DPF-EGR are where the issues start when working or hot roding them...stud the heads and remove the other items and they are a decent power plant. This in conjunction with the crazy 250 hp tunes and look out!


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