# Thoughts on heavier flies



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

All things being equal, I would choose the lightest, least bulky, fly in my box to fit the situation. They cast better and make less splash. But not every fishing situation is the same. I fish a lot of bays and marshes with moving water next to reef where I have found a heavily weighted fly works really well. I know you can dial back the weight of the fly by using an intermediate or sink tip line, but l like the idea of the ease floating line offers with keeping it out of shell. 

Does anyone use heavier flies? I have been using a size 2 shrimp with a 3/16" tungsten bead and a 3mm rattle built in. I don't know what it weighs. It's been great for probing reef margins in 18" to about 4 feet of water. I just tied a couple of size 1 shrimp with a 7/32" bead. I may need a ten weight to cast them. 

If it works for me that should be what counts. But are there any others out there that use heavy flies? You may hate them or love them or never use anything heavier than bead chain, but if you have experience with big lead Dumbbells, beads, wire, or whatever, I would like to know why these flies work for you.


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## Bill Gammel (Aug 16, 2012)

I have not been weighting my fliles or only a slight weight to make them run right. I then add a 1/32 or 1/16 oz bullet weight just like a texas rig worm. I like it. Allows a few flies to be more versatile. I try to fish a little closer when fishing deeper. Therefore real distance is not a big necessity.


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## 8weight (Mar 24, 2016)

Great topic! Man I guess it depends on the body of water. On the Texas coast it seems like sparsely tied flies work best...Florida too for the most part. Especially on a calm day when sight casting in skinny water. Like you said, big lead causes too much of a kerplunk and the fish can feel it. Best to drop something light in there...definitely easier to cast.

However there are some trout streams with some streamers that are unreal in size....so large I'd have thought they were for like marlin or something lol Those big browns can't resist that big meat.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Not sure what "heavy" means in this context. I use whatever is best for the fishing situation I am currently in, exclusive of any personal preference. It's more important to give the fish what they want, rather than something I would prefer to throw.

Thinking about some situations I've been in....generally king and silver salmon need a relatively heavy fly to get down quickly and stay down in strong currents. I'd say steelhead are similar but I use somewhat lighter flies on them than King salmon. Just about all other freshwater situations I throw relatively light flys...I do add lead wraps to many of my bluegill flies and buggers that I tie, however. 

In saltwater, it also varies depending on situation. Need many different weights on flies for most flats fish so you can effectively go from very shallow water to varying levels of increasing depth. 

I'll be after roosterfish and dorados soon and will use intermediate lines for some situations and floating lines for others without changing the flies. So, my answer is it just depends...but give the fish what they want regardless.


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## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Bill Gammel said:


> I have not been weighting my fliles or only a slight weight to make them run right. I then add a 1/32 or 1/16 oz bullet weight just like a texas rig worm. I like it. Allows a few flies to be more versatile. I try to fish a little closer when fishing deeper. Therefore real distance is not a big necessity.


I never thought of doing this, a slip weight. Good idea.


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## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

8weight said:


> Great topic! Man I guess it depends on the body of water. On the Texas coast it seems like sparsely tied flies work best...Florida too for the most part. Especially on a calm day when sight casting in skinny water. Like you said, big lead causes too much of a kerplunk and the fish can feel it. Best to drop something light in there...definitely easier to cast.
> 
> However there are some trout streams with some streamers that are unreal in size....so large I'd have thought they were for like marlin or something lol Those big browns can't resist that big meat.


I've seen those big articulated monsters that I think Kelly Galloup's Slide Inn (maybe that's not the name) uses up in Montana.


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## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Meadowlark said:


> Not sure what "heavy" means in this context. I use whatever is best for the fishing situation I am currently in, exclusive of any personal preference. It's more important to give the fish what they want, rather than something I would prefer to throw.
> 
> Thinking about some situations I've been in....generally king and silver salmon need a relatively heavy fly to get down quickly and stay down in strong currents. I'd say steelhead are similar but I use somewhat lighter flies on them than King salmon. Just about all other freshwater situations I throw relatively light flys...I do add lead wraps to many of my bluegill flies and buggers that I tie, however.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. You have fished in places and situations that demand adapting your presentations to fit what's going on. This is what I aim to accomplish in my tiny corner of the world. Give the fish what they want. Very good advice.


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## Permit Rat (May 13, 2014)

First of all, one's choice of fly lines for varying depths, has to do with where (what depth)you want the fly to fish and how you want the fly to act in the water, and nothing else. Obviously, a floating line will drag a fly back up to toward the surface during the retrieve and if you're after Texas reds in 4 ft. of water, this may not be where you want the fly. Then in some cases a Hi-D wet tip will sink before a lighter fly does and you will waste part of the retrieve, until the line drags the fly down to the bottom. Consider also, the action you want the fly to give. A streamer fly wants to swim through the water, more or less on the same plane. In deeper water, an intermediate might give that result for the longest part of the retrieve. However, a fast sinking fly on a floating line, will give more of a hopping action, because the line never sinks. This latter scenario is what I used to want when permit fishing.

I don't know of a heavier, less wind resistant flats fly, than my _Permit Rat_. It has to be heavy, to sink that bushy deer hair collar it's tied with and when it's wet, it has the wind resistance of a 1/8 oz. sinker on a #1 bare hook. Combine that with the fast action rods we are want to use in sight casting situations and you have the recipe for failure. Casting my fly on a fast action 8 weight is something that makes fly casting a chore to most people and I attribute this to the fact that the fly is not more popular. No one can deny that the fly doesn't catch permit....they just can't cast the danged thing....at least with the ultra fast rods they have with them.

That said, all my permit caught with the _Rat_, were caught on an 8 weight....BUT it was a 10 ft. rod, which was designed for steelhead and salmon. It is a much slower rod than its 9 ft. brethren and this makes the job much easier. However, at that I still have to make a conscious effort to open up my casting loop and slow the line/fly down, so that the fly doesn't over run the line and leader and come crashing down on the water, during presentation. BTW, the 10 foot length also facilitates making those wider loops.
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Anyway, that's how I cast heavy, non wind resistant flies. These flies always have their place and in some areas, it would be an advantage for someone to carry a longer slower rod with them, just for that purpose.


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## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Permit Rat, thank you for explaining how different fly lines react with different weighted flies. Knowing next to nothing about permit fishing, how deep of water are we talking about? What is the deepest you ever used a floating line with your Permit Rat fly? 

BTW, I've had the same problem at times with my heavy shrimp fly catching the line and falling in a tumble.


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

Permit Rat said:


> First of all, one's choice of fly lines for varying depths, has to do with where (what depth)you want the fly to fish and how you want the fly to act in the water, and nothing else.


This is kinda what I was thinking. I've never thrown anything but a floating line for the fishing I've done, but if I was wanting to fish deeper I would probably look into an intermediate line or sink tip, but as PR said how you're wanting to present your fly will also play into this.



> That said, all my permit caught with the _Rat_, were caught on an 8 weight....BUT it was a 10 ft. rod, which was designed for steelhead and salmon. It is a much slower rod than its 9 ft. brethren and this makes the job much easier. However, at that I still have to make a conscious effort to open up my casting loop and slow the line/fly down, so that the fly doesn't over run the line and leader and come crashing down on the water, during presentation. BTW, the 10 foot length also facilitates making those wider loops.
> ã€€
> Anyway, that's how I cast heavy, non wind resistant flies. These flies always have their place and in some areas, it would be an advantage for someone to carry a longer slower rod with them, just for that purpose.


This is pretty interesting. I never would've thought a longer slower action rod would be the solution to heavy large profile flies, but it makes a lot of sense. 
PR you are a wealth of practical knowledge.


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## Permit Rat (May 13, 2014)

karstopo said:


> Permit Rat, thank you for explaining how different fly lines react with different weighted flies. Knowing next to nothing about permit fishing, how deep of water are we talking about? What is the deepest you ever used a floating line with your Permit Rat fly?
> 
> BTW, *I've had the same problem at times with my heavy shrimp fly catching the line and falling in a tumble*.


 Oh yeah, I forgot to mention collapsed loops with heavy flies. A more open loop will help prevent that.

I'd guess the deepest water I've ever successfully enticed a permit, was about 3-4 ft. deep. I usually look for them in water where they tail and that is rarely more than 1 1/2 - 3 ft. deep. But one afternoon, I was with Simon Becker (who is now a well known guide and inventor of the Slim Beauty knot). We were looking on a flat that surrounded a shallow basin, for cruising permit, when one tailed in the middle of the basin. That water had to be a little deeper but when the fly landed, the fish moved over and sucked it up, after just a bit of retrieve.

Southpaw, thank you for the compliment. I can only guess it comes from the wide range of diversity of fly fishing opportunities, available in the Keys. Everything from billfish, to snapper and grouper.....all have been taken on fly tackle, not to mention the "Big 3." (tarpon, bonefish and permit)


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## flyakker (May 27, 2014)

This post has been a wealth of information. Thanks all


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## Permit Rat (May 13, 2014)

Here's another "something" that I have wanted to experiment with, but I moved from the Keys before it ever happened.....And that is, to apply one of those foam fresh water strike indicators to my leader butt knot, where it meets the fly line. Heavy flies are want to drag the tip of a floating line under and this will only serve to decrease that hopping shrimp-like action in deeper water, if and when that action is desired.

I was thinking of one of those foam pinch-on strike indicators and I'm thinking they'd have to be trimmed to minimize the extra wind resistance they'd create, in a place where it's neither wanted or needed. (before the fly) That and I'm hoping it wouldn't take too much of that foam to assist the end of a floating line to stay floating.

If you have a floating line and the tip sinks before you can get the fly in, then chances are you have micro cracks in the finish and water is getting in there. Check about the first 1 foot of fly line above the leader, to see if this is true. Another place where micro cracks can occur, is in the running line, about 4-8 ft. before the rear taper of the head. This is where your fly line typically repeatedly passes through the rod tip and guides while false casting. If you find micro cracks there, it might be time for a new line......or not..LOL


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## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Thank you for the tips, Permit Rat. I like that hopping action in a fly. My rio bonefish line is so well used it's hardly blue in the head any more and the yellow running line is more marsh mud brown in the area behind the head. I've cleaned it, but the dirt is worked in pretty well. I still think it casts alright. I haven't travelled anywhere salty to fish beyond the upper or middle texas inshore coast and this seems, from my experience, to be a not very technical fishery. I've noticed the front of the head dip under a little on long pauses with heavy flies, but I don't think our local not so picky fish care. 

I'll just keep using it until something about it get noticeably annoying. I have some Airflo Bruce Chard line on my other kayak set up that's still pretty and blue.


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