# Introducing Tiburon Boats



## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

New revolutionary flats boat coming soon! Skinny, dry, fast and sexy lines. No more hull sliding, rough rides and wet clothes. Run 60+ with 200hp. Based on aerospace design principles...patent pending design on CAD with NC milled plug. 21 ft hull weighs around 1100 lbs. See attached pics of prototype and movies running skinny on facebook. Go to:

www.facebook.com/tiburon.boats


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

What's the revolutionary part?


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## C-Rob (Apr 13, 2011)

*Website??*

Don't have a FaceBook.... So, is there a website?? Not being rude, just asking for an alternative.


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## 9121SS (Jun 28, 2009)

PastorD said:


> I would say the weight, if anything. Just another shill that will probably be forced to by an ad or relocate.


My 21' Shallow Sport is 1000 lbs. That's not anything new. Just say'n.


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

Bunch of **********. Looks nice. Best of luck to you! Keep us informed. Looks like flush trim tabs and flush deck lids. That right there shows your not lazy. A lot of people complain about the plastic toe stumpers on other boats.


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## 9121SS (Jun 28, 2009)

Not slamming about the weight. It's a nice looking boat. I really like the way it flattens out towards the stern.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

The revolutionary part is in the hull design that I have based on my work in aerospace for the last 25 years. She has design concepts lifted from aircraft wing and jet engine design. Designed with the same CAD system that designs jet fighters, aircraft carriers and navy subs allowed me to optimize the design. To reduce drag on a surface you want to achieve laminar flow. This effectively creates a cushion of air between the running surface and the air (or in this case water). Todays state of the art is ventilated hulls but they are complex and sacrifice draft. I achieved it by the hull shape and trapping air under the hull, lifting the tunnel out of the running surface and effectively doubling the tunnel cross section (without sacrificing draft) for more water flow. I also strived to take out the compromises most (if not all) skinny boats make to get skinny...rough water performance, slow, handling characteristics etc. These were proven out in the prototype.


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## 6.5 shooter dude (Jan 8, 2008)

Sounds like spacecraft technology, congrats on your boat design and I hope you do well with it. What does the tunnel look like?


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## patwilson (Jan 13, 2006)

x2........ I don't do Gossip book. Would like to see more info on this sled.



C-Rob said:


> Don't have a FaceBook.... So, is there a website?? Not being rude, just asking for an alternative.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

*Pics and Vids*

Website is coming soon. Attached is a pic of the prototype. Go to Youtube and look for Tiburon Flats Boat for videos.


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Why not make the gunnels wider so you can walk around the whole boat on the top deck?


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## eesmike (Aug 18, 2010)

9121SS said:


> My 21' Shallow Sport is 1000 lbs. That's not anything new. Just say'n.


Here we go..... Popcorn anyone? :wink:


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## patwilson (Jan 13, 2006)

The video looks skinny! Where are you building your boats?


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

tiburon21 said:


> The revolutionary part is in the hull design that I have based on my work in aerospace for the last 25 years. She has design concepts lifted from aircraft wing and jet engine design. Designed with the same CAD system that designs jet fighters, aircraft carriers and navy subs allowed me to optimize the design. To reduce drag on a surface you want to achieve laminar flow. This effectively creates a cushion of air between the running surface and the air (or in this case water). Todays state of the art is ventilated hulls but they are complex and sacrifice draft. I achieved it by the hull shape and trapping air under the hull, lifting the tunnel out of the running surface and effectively doubling the tunnel cross section (without sacrificing draft) for more water flow. I also strived to take out the compromises most (if not all) skinny boats make to get skinny...rough water performance, slow, handling characteristics etc. These were proven out in the prototype.


I don't understand. Laminar flow (in hydrodynamics) on a surface increases drag. Race boats usually scuff up the bottom of the boat to produce turbulent flow. Some boat builders add "steps" in order to achieve the turbulent flow. Waxing the bottom of a boat creates a more laminar flow which slows it down. I like the lines of the boat though.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Yes the Shallow sport weight is 1000 lbs with a rolled hull and no aluminum. This boat will be around that with a lined cap, raised platform, polling platform and mini console tower. Hull weight apples to apples (except for the liner hull) will be 850lbs. 

BTW. I am not slamming Shallow sport, they are great boats. I consider Wes a friend. Just defending the territory.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Corpus is where I am building them. The gunnels were a compromise based on input from my extended design team (a bunch of hard core fishermen and my dealer) The input was these are wide enough to walk on but people look for inside roominess on the inside too.


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## 9121SS (Jun 28, 2009)

eesmike said:


> Here we go..... Popcorn anyone? :wink:


NO, Here we don't go. Just stated the fact that the weight was not what sets this boat apart from the others. Tirburn21 explained what what he did to build this rig. Pretty impressive technology.


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## chrism31 (Oct 19, 2010)

whats the price range


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

There are many ways to achieve laminar flow. I worked on a project for NASA where we injected air (like a air hockey table) into a wing. Golf balls are another example. Ventilated hulls do this to some extent in boats. I do it by trapping air between chines on the running surfaces. I also use an airfoil shape to lift the hull rather than a running pad.


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## chrism31 (Oct 19, 2010)

will you have a boat at the boat show in jan


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## Rippin_drag (Sep 2, 2008)

Very nice design. Looks good. Nevermind the skeptics on here. Keep up the good work!


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

I am looking at pricing the 21 in between the Shallow Sports, Majaks etc and the New Water. I will be building to a high quality finish and high end hardware...forged hinges, pull up flush mount cleats, complete aircraft style wiring harnesses etc. I will also offer a bumper to bumper warranty including electrical.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

tiburon21 said:


> There are many ways to achieve laminar flow. I worked on a project for NASA where we injected air (like a air hockey table) into a wing. Golf balls are another example. Ventilated hulls do this to some extent in boats. I do it by trapping air between chines on the running surfaces. I also use an airfoil shape to lift the hull rather than a running pad.


Do you mean turbulent flow? I am familiar with the wing with many small holes in it to produce turbulent flow. A golf ball is the same way, the dimples produce turbulent flow which keeps the air from "sticking" to it.


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## C.Hern5972 (Jul 17, 2009)

Interesting... Open the bow to a semi pickle fork on the cad to see what it would look like. Looks like it is going to be a great layout. Flush mounted hatches is the only way to go.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Another note on laminar flow and drag. Air and water have very similiar properties just water is more dense (about 800 times). A jet flying at 800 mph is comparable (from a drag point of view) to a boat traveling over water. This was the basis I used to start my idea. I am probably being a geek but pretty cool huh? Anyway, enough science and back to boats and fishing...


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

You are correct, essentially they are related. You want to achieve laminar flow to reduce turbulent flow which increases drag. In simple terms, if you can inject a cushion of air between two running surfaces (like an air hocky puck) you can get laminar flow.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Other amenities. Fully insulated and sealed (2 seals) storage up front, anchor locker, ressessed cleat and hinges, cup holders everywhere!, lots of "nook" storage, Lockable rod storage in gunnel, easy access to electronics and wiring in console, in floor fuel tanks (ie not in console), offshore style foot rest and leaning post, built in tackle storage. My goal was to achieve NOTHING on the deck but the fishermen and of course blood.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

I am trying my best to have a production boat ready for the boat show next year. If you are interested, I have the 18 prototype to test run. Its made out of wood so its heavier, shorter and less beamy than the production but the hull design is essentially the same. I want to have one ready, but I cannot sacrifice quality. Its got to be done right.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

tiburon21 said:


> You are correct, essentially they are related. You want to achieve laminar flow to reduce turbulent flow which increases drag. In simple terms, if you can inject a cushion of air between two running surfaces (like an air hocky puck) you can get laminar flow.


Oh, you are talking about laminar flow of air, not water then? That makes more sense to me. I can see that if you were able to achieve laminar flow of air between the hull and the water, great gains could be achieved.


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## nixstix (Sep 8, 2005)

*Keep at it!*

I'm a "Tran" guy myself, but I think it's great your building a new style boat. That's AMERICAN Ingenuity and is to be commended for anyone to venture in that very competitive business. I wish you luck and great success, I also like the looks of the boat.


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## ReelWork (May 21, 2004)

Checked out the videos and pictures last night - looks like another great option for the boat buyer. 

Best of luck on the new model and hope your business keeps on growing!


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

I don't have facebook so can't see anything..

Interesting.. I'll be curious once you have the finished product...

I see a couple "slits" in the hull, those run all the way through to the front, midway? and their purpose? can you show the bottom design?


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## mirage98 (May 23, 2011)

InfamousJ said:


> I don't have facebook so can't see anything..
> 
> Interesting.. I'll be curious once you have the finished product...
> 
> I see a couple "slits" in the hull, those run all the way through to the front, midway? and their purpose? can you show the bottom design?


Aren't those slits for recessed trim tabs?


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

look to skinny for that to me.. maybe they are.. I dunno... I guess they could be.. but appears to go from bottom of hull to top...


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## yellowskeeter (Jul 18, 2008)

Since you are in the design stage, and you talk about fuel tank not being in console, one thing that really bugs me is the batteries there as well and might want to do a design where they are all in the hull and leave the console open for dry storage or whatever. I don't have Facebook either so you might want to post a couple more pics on here.


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## mgeistman (Jun 13, 2012)

yellowskeeter said:


> Since you are in the design stage, and you talk about fuel tank not being in console, one thing that really bugs me is the batteries there as well and might want to do a design where they are all in the hull and leave the console open for dry storage or whatever. I don't have Facebook either so you might want to post a couple more pics on here.


X2


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## shallowgal (Jun 11, 2004)

> tiburon21
> Registered Users-pm+
> 
> Join Date: Aug 27 2012
> ...


All Shallow Sport's have lined caps except Bahia model. Do you mind disclosing your name here or you can PM me. Just wondering because you said you are a friend of Wes'. Good luck and welcome to the crazy fickle world of Texas boat building! I'd like to see a picture of the bottom of the hull. The chines sound similar to what we implemented in our Mod-V design. I agree flush hatches recessed hardware are the way to go, its the only way we do it too.


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## boltmaster (Aug 16, 2011)

Just what us poor guys trying to retire need, another cool lookin $75k boat.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: JK

Looks cool keep the info comming


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

shallowgal said:


> All Shallow Sport's have lined caps except Bahia model. Do you mind disclosing your name here or you can PM me. Just wondering because you said you are a friend of Wes'. Good luck and welcome to the crazy fickle world of Texas boat building! I'd like to see a picture of the bottom of the hull. The chines sound similar to what we implemented in our Mod-V design. I agree flush hatches recessed hardware are the way to go, its the only way we do it too.


 does Wes know any NASA engineers?

And I thought Desperado had the only space shuttle technology


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

Rippin_drag said:


> Very nice design. Looks good. Nevermind the skeptics on here. Keep up the good work!


I totally agree!!! Ignore the naysayers and skeptics/critics and keep pressing on. Looks very good and I hope it achieves what you are looking for.


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## rattler (Feb 20, 2006)

Really like the lines of this boat. I assume the video's are of the 18' with the 130 on the back?

>E


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## Chase This! (Jul 20, 2007)

This sounds like a pretty sweet design. I don't have Facebook. Can we get the video loaded here via Youtube???


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## 9121SS (Jun 28, 2009)

atcfisherman said:


> I totally agree!!! Ignore the naysayers and skeptics/critics and keep pressing on. Looks very good and I hope it achieves what you are looking for.


I read back through all the post and really didn't see any of this. Mostly just suggestions of what they would like to see.
Looks and sounds like it's going to be a very nice rig with smooth lines and great performance. I hope he does very well.


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## C.Hern5972 (Jul 17, 2009)

I also agree on the batteries. Put the in a floor box forward of the console. Makes it nice having everything accessible under the console. Looks like it is going to be a nice set up. Also like there are rid lockers in the gunnels


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## theyallbreak (Jan 29, 2012)

tiburon21 said:


> I am looking at pricing the 21 in between the Shallow Sports, Majaks etc and the New Water. I will be building to a high quality finish and high end hardware...forged hinges, pull up flush mount cleats, complete aircraft style wiring harnesses etc. I will also offer a bumper to bumper warranty including electrical.


Please don't use all white wire and have number codes to identify them like most planes I worked on, that gets old when the loom is 3 inches in diameter.


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## aggiefishinDr (Sep 1, 2005)

Nice design!!! I can't wait to see some more pictures and some better field test videos!! Keep em coming.


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## Texican89 (Oct 27, 2009)

Chase This! said:


> This sounds like a pretty sweet design. I don't have Facebook. Can we get the video loaded here via Youtube???


Here you go hope it's the right one.


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## delrod (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm a tran guy myself. Shopped for a coupla years to find the best boat for what i do. I have loved my baby cat since the day i got it and still do. That being said, i have fished in and next to this prototype boat. The hole shot is comparable to my boat. The speed is not comparable, but it has a bigger motor. Pretty fast to me. The draft is comparable to my boat. Crossing the turning basin in mansfield impressed me with the rough water capability. While running around playing follow the leader way too far from deep water to be sane, the prototype boat ran everywhere i did, then out nerved me and ran some places i wouldnt. And it did all that with 4 people and it was made out of WOOD. Huh. I was impressed. Definately worth checking out.


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## mgeistman (Jun 13, 2012)

Mmmmmmm sorry nothin impressive there.


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## Spots and Dots (May 23, 2004)

i find it funny that this crowd tends to talk **** to any new builder, or design. If it said SCB then everyone would be masturbating over it, and wishing they could afford one.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Yea. I only use Gossip book to post pics. I have a website in work. Should be next week. In the mean time there are videos on youtube and I can email pics. SORRY...no pics of the underside of the hull just yet. Even though its patented, I have to protect myself since I know that competitors are looking. Suffice it to say its unlike anything you have seen before.


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## Gilbert (May 25, 2004)

Spots and Dots said:


> i find it funny that this crowd tends to talk **** to any new builder, or design. If it said SCB then everyone would be masturbating over it, and wishing they could afford one.


yup. get tight sucka.


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## DSL_PWR (Jul 22, 2009)

Exactly Spots...


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## FishAfrica (Jan 23, 2010)

DSL_PWR said:


> Exactly Spots...


X3, well said spots. It looks like an interesting design similiar to new water. Lets let this play out and let the market decide if the boat is going to be successful or not.


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## Chase This! (Jul 20, 2007)

mgeistman said:


> Mmmmmmm sorry nothin impressive there.


I was pretty impressed.


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## Chase This! (Jul 20, 2007)

Clearly this guy has put some real thought into this design. Kudos to him. I can't wait to learn more about it.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

Spots and Dots said:


> i find it funny that this crowd tends to talk **** to any new builder, or design. If it said SCB then everyone would be masturbating over it, and wishing they could afford one.


I think the OP may have got off on the wrong foot with a comment (hijack) he left on another thread in this forum. Anyway, I'm interested in seeing the shape of the bottom of the hull. I can see some of it in the reflected view on his FB page.


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## CaptDocHoliday (Feb 3, 2011)

Actual, measuable, real loaded draft at rest would be nice to know. I know a lot of folks claim 6", but that isn't always a fishing-load measurement.

And if possible, post pics using the Manage Attachements feature. Pasted pics are blocked by my companies firewall.


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## RedXCross (Aug 7, 2005)

On this site, if it can't run 75-80mph on a 2 foot cross chop and be dry on a southwest wind then it aint no good!! Just saying! and my motor is better than your motor and I run a 18" setback plate that is faster than last years Bob's LMFAO. 

Oh by the way, I like the boat and hopefully new innovation. Keep up the good work ..


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## yellowskeeter (Jul 18, 2008)

I have been thinking about what you said on the golf ball pattern. Did you see the myth busters deal when they did it to a ford Taurus ? Was pretty cool. I would think a hull with big dimples to scale like a golf ball pattern would really make a hull more efficient. Could go the other way as well, not sure. I would think that would be achievable in a mold and would think it would free up the hull like running in those days with a small 2-3" chop and hauling arsssss!!!!


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## theyallbreak (Jan 29, 2012)

RedXCross said:


> On this site, if it can't run 75-80mph on a 2 foot cross chop and be dry on a southwest wind then it aint no good!! Just saying! and my motor is better than your motor and I run a 18" setback plate that is faster than last years Bob's LMFAO.
> 
> Oh by the way, I like the boat and hopefully new innovation. Keep up the good work ..


My daddy can beat your daddy up! Sorry the meds doc gave me are kicking in.lol


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

yellowskeeter said:


> I have been thinking about what you said on the golf ball pattern. Did you see the myth busters deal when they did it to a ford Taurus ? Was pretty cool. I would think a hull with big dimples to scale like a golf ball pattern would really make a hull more efficient. Could go the other way as well, not sure. I would think that would be achievable in a mold and would think it would free up the hull like running in those days with a small 2-3" chop and hauling arsssss!!!!


It's been done with marginal results. The OP's design uses air injection to theoretically create a thin laminar layer of air between the hull and the water. I can see that this might work to an extent on very smooth water, but when the water has any sort of chop to it, that layer will be diminished.


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## theyallbreak (Jan 29, 2012)

I


yellowskeeter said:


> I have been thinking about what you said on the golf ball pattern. Did you see the myth busters deal when they did it to a ford Taurus ? Was pretty cool. I would think a hull with big dimples to scale like a golf ball pattern would really make a hull more efficient. Could go the other way as well, not sure. I would think that would be achievable in a mold and would think it would free up the hull like running in those days with a small 2-3" chop and hauling arsssss!!!!


I think there is a boat out of Australia that has a dimpled hull. I read up on this a while back when I could have got my hands on a small scooter boat model and was going to try it using clay to make dipples before I sprayed it.


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## fattyflattie (May 20, 2008)

Spots and Dots said:


> i find it funny that this crowd tends to talk **** to any new builder, or design. If it said SCB then everyone would be masturbating over it, and wishing they could afford one.


I'm sure Tiburon thanks you for the next 5-10 pages of discussion and argument.


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## CaptDocHoliday (Feb 3, 2011)

yellowskeeter said:


> I have been thinking about what you said on the golf ball pattern. Did you see the myth busters deal when they did it to a ford Taurus ? Was pretty cool. I would think a hull with big dimples to scale like a golf ball pattern would really make a hull more efficient. Could go the other way as well, not sure. I would think that would be achievable in a mold and would think it would free up the hull like running in those days with a small 2-3" chop and hauling arsssss!!!!


Wonder how bad the hull slap would be? Seems like it would be awefully noisey


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## yellowskeeter (Jul 18, 2008)

Not with a big Wetsounds system cranking!


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## mgeistman (Jun 13, 2012)

yellowskeeter said:


> Not with a big Wetsounds system cranking!


Lol hell yeah!!


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## williamcr (Aug 8, 2006)

It does look very interesting.


Sent from William's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BaffinBayAg (Apr 21, 2011)

Awesome and expensive undertaking to start building boats. Probably better to post actual results once you have them. Put your passion into the boat not 2cool. Let us non boat builders pour out our emotions here. Good luck! In the meantime, SCB's Rock!


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

The slits are part of the chine system to deflect water down.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Dont think it will be 75K


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

All running videos are of the wood prototype that is 18.5 ft. The hull design is the same on the production model except for width and length.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Website coming next week. Until then you could go to youtube if you dont have face book. Search for Tiburon Flats boat. I tried to upload one here but it said it was too big.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

I totally agree on the batteries. With the raised platform the batteries will go underneath. Starter battery behind rear hatch without.


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## Profish00 (May 21, 2004)

Yall that dont have facebook but post on most forums, welcome to 2012, most every business, product...ect has a facebook account. you don't need all your high school buddies and x girlfriends as friends to have an account. Get a joint account with your wife if that's the problem...lol


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## East Cape (Feb 26, 2010)

First I'd like to say congrats! Looks good for that style of boat... 
I'm curious to your thoughts on how its going to be made? Hand-lay,bang,infuse, aramid,e-glass, chop?
Again good luck and I'm sure many will be watching.
Kevin


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Your right RedXCross. Thats why they make chocolate and vanilla. I just tried to create a design takes the best qualities of all the bay/flats boats in one. In short, fast as and SCB, skinny as the New Water, dry like a shallow sport, handles rough water like a V hull Bay boat. I apologize in advance if I left our your favorite boat. For me boats are like women, they all have great qualities...but if you could design your own what would she look like???


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

I have seen myth busters and the golf ball thing. Just another way of creating air between the two surfaces. I get it a different way.


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## flatsfishinfreddy (Jun 28, 2011)

yellowskeeter said:


> I have been thinking about what you said on the golf ball pattern. Did you see the myth busters deal when they did it to a ford Taurus ? Was pretty cool. I would think a hull with big dimples to scale like a golf ball pattern would really make a hull more efficient. Could go the other way as well, not sure. I would think that would be achievable in a mold and would think it would free up the hull like running in those days with a small 2-3" chop and hauling arsssss!!!!


I have a knee board with that design. Its like ball bearings. Nice ride!


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Fully hand laid NO chop. CNC machined plug directly off the CAD data with the mold taken from that. High tolerance hull. Molds are flanged for infusing but I havent decided yet. Its the old cost benefit thing.


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## East Cape (Feb 26, 2010)

the CNC/5-axis and mold part is nothing great as many do that here...not sure about what builders in TX do. 
Also know nothing wrong with chop if its coming out the gun with VE resin and done light as if you do go the infusion route it will be far better than using a mat as a skin coat to prepare for infusion as we've been doing it like this for over 8yrs and of of the first to do infuse as well.

Also not sure what your gonna use for your molds like OPTI-mold or do the hand lay-up route which again has air and takes time and again you hope for good bonds. 
If your spending all this time and energy and lastly $$ then I don't think you should worry too much about the cost as the your laminate should be your first priority. after all, if you design a good boat and design a fast,shallow, and gonna take the beating you say it will then maybe cost on making sure it stays together and light should also come into play. agree?
again, good luck on your project
Kevin


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## cgerace19 (Jul 17, 2008)

just viewed your photos on Facebook, wife's profile.... 

excuse my ignorance, but when on plane and the motor jacked up, how does water enter the intake of the motor?


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## firephil (Jul 11, 2006)

*I have been in the boat*

I am one of the fishing buds Tiburon 21 speaks of and had the pleasure of fishing in the boat for 2 days from Port M to Port Isabel. I was cynical at first since it was a wood boat and a prototype.I was amazed. I caught the first sight casted red drifting the boat in 7" of water with 2 men, full of fuel and alot of gear.It would get up very quick and shallow, I hear it has a better prop now and is doing even better. We ran around 45+ MPH in that 7" and less water, we went scary skinny. I have stuck boats before and was ready "to fly" but it was like a magic carpet ride. Fast turns, just to see what it would do, were like riding a slot car. It sticks to the water, turns flat, no slippage and is dry. We went from Port M to Port Isabel and back with plenty of sight seeing and experimenting and when we went to fuel the boat I was really suprised at how little fuel we used, I dont remember the amount but I remember I was really amazed. I don't know much about laminar flow v.s. water and all that stuff but I did notice when you turn it into the wind you could feel it get smoother and faster without touching the throttle so I guess that means something. Coming across the turning basin at Port M there was a pretty good chop like always and the boat ran very dry and smooth. That hull design is really incredible. When looking off the stern when the boat is running the water is flat, very little turbulance, just flat with the hull riding on top of the water. This makes for a very small wake also. I will vouch for everything Tiburon21 says as true.
Now for the abstract benfiets of the boat. I caught more fish than I usually do. The women at South Padre thought I was good looking. Beer tasted better. I could get a cell phone signal better.Ice didnt melt as fast. I never backlashed a reel in the boat. Like I said, these are all abstract benefiets but they did happen.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

I agree East Cape. Some boat builders (US Marine, Chris Craft etc). have the ability to do FEA on their design but most dont. I have used the tools of the Computer Aided Design system to optimize my design both in performance and weight. However, I dont plan on sacrificing quaility for a few pounds. I was able to use the CAD system to predict things like water flow and deflection, weight, draft, hull stiffness, etc virtually. It allowed me to iterate to an optimum design in a matter of days. The prototype proved the estimates I got from the CAD system. I have only made minor changes to the production hull.


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## East Cape (Feb 26, 2010)

tiburon21 said:


> I agree East Cape. Some boat builders (US Marine, Chris Craft etc). have the ability to do FEA on their design but most dont. I have used the tools of the Computer Aided Design system to optimize my design both in performance and weight. However, I dont plan on sacrificing quaility for a few pounds. I was able to use the CAD system to predict things like water flow and deflection, weight, draft, hull stiffness, etc virtually. It allowed me to iterate to an optimum design in a matter of days. The prototype proved the estimates I got from the CAD system. I have only made minor changes to the production hull.


Cool.
you using rhino, solid works, pro e?
and its cool to get a lot done on a computer now a days too huh?

p.s. infuse your molds too if you can. :O)


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Without giving away too much the hull is designed in such a way that I can more than double the amount of water fed to the engine without increasing the basic size of the tunnel and sacrificing draft. This allowed me to raise the tunnel to elimate tunnel drag due to suction and raise the engine higher by several inches than a standard flat bottom boat with a tunnel cut into it. The intakes are actually several inches ABOVE the top of the tunnel and I still get about 25 PSI with the jack plate on 6. This means I can run skinny all day, not just to get over a skinny spot. I have attached a pic of the prototype floating in about 6 in. Notice the intake is about 3-4 in above the water line. If the running surface is 6 inches below the water then when on plane the intake is about 9-10 inches above the water surface. This means the bottom of the skeg is about even with the running surface.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Using NX by Siemens. Same system that Boeing, Northrop, General Dynamics, Electric Boat, Genmar, US marine etc uses. High end CAD and analysis system similar to PRO E but with non-linear analysis for composites analysis and tailored ship and boat building tools.


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## GuyFromHuntsville (Aug 4, 2011)

cgerace19 said:


> just viewed your photos on Facebook, wife's profile....
> 
> excuse my ignorance, but when on plane and the motor jacked up, how does water enter the intake of the motor?


Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Wife's profile? I've got to get on facebook.:biggrin:


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## East Cape (Feb 26, 2010)

tiburon21 said:


> Using NX by Siemens. Same system that Boeing, Northrop, General Dynamics, Electric Boat, Genmar, US marine etc uses. High end CAD and analysis system similar to PRO E but with non-linear analysis for composites analysis and tailored ship and boat building tools.


Cool.
We use rhino and pro e and my buddy uses that software too...
all defense companies all use the same as we both listed and all have a strong point too.


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## theyallbreak (Jan 29, 2012)

tiburon21 said:


> Without giving away too much the hull is designed in such a way that I can more than double the amount of water fed to the engine without increasing the basic size of the tunnel and sacrificing draft. This allowed me to raise the tunnel to elimate tunnel drag due to suction and raise the engine higher by several inches than a standard flat bottom boat with a tunnel cut into it. The intakes are actually several inches ABOVE the top of the tunnel and I still get about 25 PSI with the jack plate on 6. This means I can run skinny all day, not just to get over a skinny spot. I have attached a pic of the prototype floating in about 6 in. Notice the intake is about 3-4 in above the water line. If the running surface is 6 inches below the water then when on plane the intake is about 9-10 inches above the water surface. This means the bottom of the skeg is about even with the running surface.


Will it get up with the motor that high? If not how much do you have to jack down,and is the skeg still above the bottom of the boat.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

East Cape said:


> the CNC/5-axis and mold part is nothing great as many do that here...not sure about what builders in TX do.
> Also know nothing wrong with chop if its coming out the gun with VE resin and done light as if you do go the infusion route it will be far better than using a mat as a skin coat to prepare for infusion as we've been doing it like this for over 8yrs and of of the first to do infuse as well.
> 
> Also not sure what your gonna use for your molds like OPTI-mold or do the hand lay-up route which again has air and takes time and again you hope for good bonds.
> ...


Problem with Chop is that I cannot predict laminate direction or exact coverage. The fiber direction is key in optimizing thicknesses with stress analysis. Even a few degrees of ply orientation has been known to cause failures.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

She will get up with the jack plate on 6 with no problem. In fact on the prototype my water flow and performance was so good with the jack plate up on the prototype, that I raised the tunnel (and engine) another 1 1/2 on the production boat. BTW you dont have to spin much either. 1/4 turn at most. Fill the tunnel and your up.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Just wanted to apologize to Shallowsport, Wes and Kyra. I didnt mean to misrepresent your boat...just trying to make a point that all boats are different and that many things; freeboard, beam, hull configuration etc plays a factor in weight. I am new to this blog stuff. In the future, I will just concentrate on what my boat will do and not make comparisons to others. I will leave that up to others.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

firephil said:


> Now for the abstract benfiets of the boat. I caught more fish than I usually do. The women at South Padre thought I was good looking. Beer tasted better. I could get a cell phone signal better.Ice didnt melt as fast. I never backlashed a reel in the boat. Like I said, these are all abstract benefiets but they did happen.


Hell yea! You just sold this boat to a lot of people on this website. Especially if it comes on an aluminum trailer without pencil marks. :biggrin:


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## panhandle_slim (Jun 1, 2012)

Congrats and good luck. Don't let the bass turds get you down!!


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## theyallbreak (Jan 29, 2012)

tiburon21 said:


> She will get up with the jack plate on 6 with no problem. In fact on the prototype my water flow and performance was so good with the jack plate up on the prototype, that I raised the tunnel (and engine) another 1 1/2 on the production boat. BTW you dont have to spin much either. 1/4 turn at most. Fill the tunnel and your up.


I was figuring you would have to turn a little thats not much water over the prop.


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm impressed with the amount of homework you've done.


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## yellowskeeter (Jul 18, 2008)

tiburon21 said:


> Just wanted to apologize to Shallowsport, Wes and Kyra. I didnt mean to misrepresent your boat...just trying to make a point that all boats are different and that many things; freeboard, beam, hull configuration etc plays a factor in weight. I am new to this blog stuff. In the future, I will just concentrate on what my boat will do and not make comparisons to others. I will leave that up to others.


Good choice! Now go build it and make all of your work pay off!


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## East Cape (Feb 26, 2010)

tiburon21 said:


> Problem with Chop is that I cannot predict laminate direction or exact coverage. The fiber direction is key in optimizing thicknesses with stress analysis. Even a few degrees of ply orientation has been known to cause failures.


You only use chop OR mat as a blanket if you go the infusion route. Its just a blanket for the heat. But you knew this already correct? :O)


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## shallowgal (Jun 11, 2004)

Thanks for the apology Jeff, although you didnt need to apologize, you just werent aware. I'll vouch for Tiburon on here, he's a good guy, and I'm interested to see how his vision comes to life. 

And yes, his wife is a hottie


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

East Cape said:


> You only use chop OR mat as a blanket if you go the infusion route. Its just a blanket for the heat. But you knew this already correct? :O)


Maybe you should buy a sponsorship and let us all know how great your process is on another post. ??



shallowgal said:


> And yes, his wife is a hottie


is he your husband too?


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

InfamousJ said:


> Maybe you should buy a sponsorship and let us all know how great your process is on another post. ??
> 
> is he your husband too?


No but we are both Aggies so that counts for something! AND your logo is correct...Shallowsport is a legend.


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## firephil (Jul 11, 2006)

All of my information in this thread is unbiased so I feel safe in saying that Wes's wife is a hottie also, such as is the wife of Tiburon21, I guess she would be Tiburon22. I have met both and was equally impressed. I'm a better judge of women than I am of boats. But this would deviate the thread from its intended purpose so I suggest Jeff or Wes start another thread.(with pics)


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## theyallbreak (Jan 29, 2012)

firephil said:


> All of my information in this thread is unbiased so I feel safe in saying that Wes's wife is a hottie also, such as is the wife of Tiburon21, I guess she would be Tiburon22. I have met both and was equally impressed. I'm a better judge of women than I am of boats. But this would deviate the thread from its intended purpose so I suggest Jeff or Wes start another thread.(with pics)


 X2 pictures are worth a thousand words


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

firephil said:


> All of my information in this thread is unbiased so I feel safe in saying that Wes's wife is a hottie also, such as is the wife of Tiburon21, I guess she would be Tiburon22. I have met both and was equally impressed. I'm a better judge of women than I am of boats. But this would deviate the thread from its intended purpose so I suggest Jeff or Wes start another thread.(with pics)


We'll be looking forward to the finished product photos, with the wife laying out on them for added selling benefit.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

InfamousJ said:


> We'll be looking forward to the finished product photos, with the wife laying out on them for added selling benefit.


Funny, I suggested that very thing to her stating that SEX sells. I cannot put the response in print but suffice it to say that I will have to rely on the technical merits of this boat to sell...Phil, I think you made both Kyras and Cynthies day.


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## PastorD (Jul 2, 2012)

East Cape said:


> You only use chop OR mat as a blanket if you go the infusion route. Its just a blanket for the heat. But you knew this already correct? :O)


I have to ask, and I'm sure others are wondering too... *** do you care what this gentlemen does?

After checking around with long timers here, you have not pulled this grade school nurse ratchet S!*@ with anyone else. Why does this guy AROUSE your interest so much?


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## BaffinBayAg (Apr 21, 2011)

Gig'em!


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## firephil (Jul 11, 2006)

tiburon21 said:


> Funny, I suggested that very thing to her stating that SEX sells. I cannot put the response in print but suffice it to say that I will have to rely on the technical merits of this boat to sell...Phil, I think you made both Kyras and Cynthies day.


 Well..... we all have our gifts and our callings.


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## firephil (Jul 11, 2006)

The thread has taken a turn toward a point of shallow mindedness. Some would take offense at this, but those involved would not be reading except for the fact of being interested in a shallow draft and shallow running boat. So it seems we are of one like shallow mind and we are bona fide in this. The capabilities of this boat will take you where no man has gone before, under power. This is shallow. We all regretably know that the most shallow experiences of life, no matter how sordid, are the most memorable as we lay there in the cold gray light of dawn. The shallow experience you will have when you ride in a Tiburon will be just as memorable, only more honorable. When the production model of the Tiburon flats boat hits the water I feel safe in saying that a man seen wearing a Tiburon T-shirt will have the same affect on women as a fistfull of beads at Mardi Gras.


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## PastorD (Jul 2, 2012)

This last post mirrors something I saw in the Houston Post paper. All this talk about taking a man where he's never gone before etc..

Whatever happened to straight up shilling?


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## firephil (Jul 11, 2006)

What is shilling?


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## delrod (Sep 13, 2005)

firephil said:


> The thread has taken a turn toward a point of shallow mindedness. Some would take offense at this, but those involved would not be reading except for the fact of being interested in a shallow draft and shallow running boat. So it seems we are of one like shallow mind and we are bona fide in this. The capabilities of this boat will take you where no man has gone before, under power. This is shallow. We all regretably know that the most shallow experiences of life, no matter how sordid, are the most memorable as we lay there in the cold gray light of dawn. The shallow experience you will have when you ride in a Tiburon will be just as memorable, only more honorable. When the production model of the Tiburon flats boat hits the water I feel safe in saying that a man seen wearing a Tiburon T-shirt will have the same affect on women as a fistfull of beads at Mardi Gras.


WOW! And i happen to know your on duty today so you pontificated so eloquently without the aid of any grade a canadian firewater. That's impressive.


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## GuyFromHuntsville (Aug 4, 2011)

firephil said:


> The thread has taken a turn toward a point of shallow mindedness. Some would take offense at this, but those involved would not be reading except for the fact of being interested in a shallow draft and shallow running boat. So it seems we are of one like shallow mind and we are bona fide in this. The capabilities of this boat will take you where no man has gone before, under power. This is shallow. We all regretably know that the most shallow experiences of life, no matter how sordid, are the most memorable as we lay there in the cold gray light of dawn. The shallow experience you will have when you ride in a Tiburon will be just as memorable, only more honorable. When the production model of the Tiburon flats boat hits the water I feel safe in saying that a man seen wearing a Tiburon T-shirt will have the same affect on women as a fistfull of beads at Mardi Gras.


So you say I can save all of the money I spend on Mardi Gras beads? I'm in!!


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## Spots and Dots (May 23, 2004)

"pontificated" and "eloquently"


Someone get this man an award for using the biggest, multisylable words on 2cool, ever!


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Thanks to all who have attempted to keep the naysayers in check. However, I really dont mind the negative comments as long as I hear why. Working in such an inbred industry such as aircraft over the years I have heard it all. But that is what challenges me to come up with better solutions...AND they may learn something in the process. Like the time I worked with the CEO of a business jet company who was wanting to design a flat wrap windshield on his aircraft. I showed him how the CAD system could fair in the transisition very quickly. He was not impressed saying my guys could do it in his shop could do the same thing. (by sanding, never mind the left couldnt possibly match the right side). Anyway, I continued showing how I could change the shape of the transition and how it affected drag. In the end, we reduced drag by almost 20% in minutes. Now that got his attention. I also dont profess to know everthing about boat building. Hell, Wes is third generation. My dad bought the first bonified bay boat from his grandfather in '74. I am convinced that Wes was popped out of a mold when he was born! But I do know how to design and manufacture aircraft. Airplanes and boats have simliliar characteristics and problems to solve in design and manufacturing. I haved hired the manufacturing expertise. My goal is to meld the best of both worlds and design out issues that people just live with because they like their boat. So for the naysayers...ask yourself these questions. "My boat runs in spit but I never take the short route across the open bay, would I want to in comfort? Or, My boat runs in spit but I sure would like to save money (and weight) with a smaller engine for the same performance or run 60+ MPH to win a tournament. These are my design goals. The protoype comes **** close. The production boat will be better. All I have to do is prove it and I think thats going to be the easy part.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

tiburon21 said:


> Thanks to all who have attempted to keep the naysayers in check. However, I really dont mind the negative comments as long as I hear why. Working in such an inbred industry such as aircraft over the years I have heard it all. But that is what challenges me to come up with better solutions...AND they may learn something in the process. Like the time I worked with the CEO of a business jet company who was wanting to design a flat wrap windshield on his aircraft. I showed him how the CAD system could fair in the transisition very quickly. He was not impressed saying my guys could do it in his shop could do the same thing. (by sanding, never mind the left couldnt possibly match the right side). Anyway, I continued showing how I could change the shape of the transition and how it affected drag. In the end, we reduced drag by almost 20% in minutes. Now that got his attention. I also dont profess to know everthing about boat building. Hell, Wes is third generation. My dad bought the first bonified bay boat from his grandfather in '74. I am convinced that Wes was popped out of a mold when he was born! But I do know how to design and manufacture aircraft. Airplanes and boats have simliliar characteristics and problems to solve in design and manufacturing. I haved hired the manufacturing expertise. My goal is to meld the best of both worlds and design out issues that people just live with because they like their boat. So for the naysayers...ask yourself these questions. "My boat runs in spit but I never take the short route across the open bay, would I want to in comfort? Or, My boat runs in spit but I sure would like to save money (and weight) with a smaller engine for the same performance or run 60+ MPH to win a tournament. These are my design goals. The protoype comes **** close. The production boat will be better. All I have to do is prove it and I think thats going to be the easy part.


Of course you will have naysayers. But let's be honest here. You are claiming to have built the "*skinniest, fastest, best handling, sexiest, and smoothest flats boat on the market".* Those are your words from your FB page. So you have to ask yourself, does the boat qualify to win any of those categories?


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

man, I just might have to trade in my Desperado if a tiburon shirt performs that well in the field. Please get off facebook and get a website where we can see all this progress and final product. Hell, facebook stock was red yesterday when everything else was green.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Website is in work. But right now the website wont have much more. I am still getting this thing off the ground. The quote *skinniest, fastest, best handling, sexiest, and smoothest flats boat on the market".* is what I set as my design goal. To date I think I have met that with a 18 ft prototype made from wood with the same basic hull configuration as the production boat will. Of course the 21 will be longer and 8" wider plus much lighter. So I am baseing my statements on the performance of the prototype and where I think a wider,longer, lighter more horsepower production boat will add to it. But here are the facts on the performance of the wood boat: runs in 2", floats in 7" (no people), gets up in 9-10 (2-3 people), runs 45 with a stock Evinrude 17" prop and a 130 hp. Thats faster than anything listed on the Evirude performance website. AND I built this sucker with a table saw, jig saw and router in my garage. So with a true hull and composite materials, I expect the production boat will be comparable in running draft but static draft and hole shot draft should be a couple of inches less and run as fast as anything out there with the right engine. But its going to do all that an still take rough water very well. BTW I will consider Desperado trade ins


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## delrod (Sep 13, 2005)

Spots and Dots said:


> "pontificated" and "eloquently"
> 
> Someone get this man an award for using the biggest, multisylable words on 2cool, ever!


Awesome, i hope the award is tiburon t-shirts AND mardi gras beads.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

tiburon21;4350854 But here are the facts on the performance of the wood boat: runs in 2"...[/QUOTE said:


> You'll have to post a video of the boat on an open flat in 2" of water to make a believer out of me.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

wolffman73 said:


> You'll have to post a video of the boat on an open flat in 2" of water to make a believer out of me.


must show a running lane of beer cans sitting up halfway in the water and todays newspaper at the start..

I'm wondering if the lighter wider production hull might be able to run in 1".


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## Specsniper (Jul 26, 2004)

tiburon21 said:


> Website is in work. But right now the website wont have much more. I am still getting this thing off the ground. The quote *skinniest, fastest, best handling, sexiest, and smoothest flats boat on the market".* is what I set as my design goal. To date I think I have met that with a 18 ft prototype made from wood with the same basic hull configuration as the production boat will. Of course the 21 will be longer and 8" wider plus much lighter. So I am baseing my statements on the performance of the prototype and where I think a wider,longer, lighter more horsepower production boat will add to it. But here are the facts on the performance of the wood boat: runs in 2", floats in 7" (no people), gets up in 9-10 (2-3 people), runs 45 with a stock Evinrude 17" prop and a 130 hp. Thats faster than anything listed on the Evirude performance website. AND I built this sucker with a table saw, jig saw and router in my garage. So with a true hull and composite materials, I expect the production boat will be comparable in running draft but static draft and hole shot draft should be a couple of inches less and run as fast as anything out there with the right engine. But its going to do all that an still take rough water very well.* BTW I will consider Desperado trade ins*


LOL! Good luck, I hope your designs and hard work are successful. I really enjoy seeing folks excel at what they have a passion to do. The bar is set very high already by many of the excellent boat builders in our Great State of Texas.


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## jeff.w (Jan 22, 2006)

InfamousJ said:


> I'm wondering if the lighter wider production hull might be able to run in 1".


The way this is progressing, the boat will not need a trailer. You can drive it down I45 on cloudy days to the boat ramp and not even scratch the skeg.


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## TKoenig (Apr 8, 2007)

beautiful design Tiburon, cant wait to see one in action. im green with envy, and now want to get my hull design off of CAD and in the realworld even more. time and $$$ keep pushing the envelope!


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

Ask Jimmy Dommis........lol


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

tiburon21 said:


> Website is in work. But right now the website wont have much more. I am still getting this thing off the ground. The quote *skinniest, fastest, best handling, sexiest, and smoothest flats boat on the market".* is what I set as my design goal. To date I think I have met that with a 18 ft prototype made from wood with the same basic hull configuration as the production boat will. Of course the 21 will be longer and 8" wider plus much lighter. So I am baseing my statements on the performance of the prototype and where I think a wider,longer, lighter more horsepower production boat will add to it. But here are the facts on the performance of the wood boat: runs in 2", floats in 7" (no people), gets up in 9-10 (2-3 people), runs 45 with a stock Evinrude 17" prop and a 130 hp. Thats faster than anything listed on the Evirude performance website. AND I built this sucker with a table saw, jig saw and router in my garage. So with a true hull and composite materials, I expect the production boat will be comparable in running draft but static draft and hole shot draft should be a couple of inches less and run as fast as anything out there with the right engine. But its going to do all that an still take rough water very well. BTW I will consider Desperado:brew2: trade ins


 Good idea........you can use the material from the Desperado to build an anchor.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Cool Hand said:


> Good idea........you can use the material from the Desperado to build an anchor.


let's design a course around the port/ramp area of your choice, point A to point B... I'll let you pick part of the course and I too will pick parts of the course. I figure you'll want to pick the 6" (or less if you think you can do it) parts of it... I'm good with it. Last one from point A to point B is, well you know. How about it?


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## elgatogus (Oct 27, 2010)

Cool Hand said:


> Good idea........you can use the material from the Desperado to build an anchor.


Ummmmm... Im I missing something here??? Why does everyone bash on the Desperado? Is it that poor of a quality boat? Some one please.. tell me something! Gus


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

elgatogus said:


> Ummmmm... Im I missing something here??? Why does everyone bash on the Desperado? Is it that poor of a quality boat? Some one please.. tell me something! Gus


See the post above yours...LOL


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## Stuart (May 21, 2004)

tiburon21 said:


> AND I built this sucker with a table saw, jig saw and router in my garage. So with a true hull and composite materials, I expect the production boat will be comparable in running draft but static draft and hole shot draft should be a couple of inches less and run as fast as anything out there with the right engine.


You sure? Wood can be a pretty light building material.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

Stuart said:


> You sure? Wood can be a pretty light building material.


Lighter than fiberglass?

I've got a dog house that weighs aboot 800 friggin' lbs made out of wood. lol


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## Stuart (May 21, 2004)

justletmein said:


> Lighter than fiberglass?
> 
> I've got a dog house that weighs aboot 800 friggin' lbs made out of wood. lol


Absolutely


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Haute Pursuit said:


> See the post above yours...LOL


are you an expert on the abilities of the Desperado? No, you just go through the trouble of commenting about it all the time? Yep, you're bothered.



justletmein said:


> Lighter than fiberglass?
> 
> I've got a dog house that weighs aboot 800 friggin' lbs made out of wood. lol


lots of rain has no effect on antler growth either


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

elgatogus said:


> Ummmmm... Im I missing something here??? Why does everyone bash on the Desperado? Is it that poor of a quality boat? Some one please.. tell me something! Gus


See what I mean...LOL


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Haute Pursuit said:


> See what I mean...LOL


LOL  no, why don't you tell us?


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## firephil (Jul 11, 2006)

As far as the 5 parameters go 4 out of 5 ain't bad. The sexiest boat I have ever seen was highly accessorized and I think those accessories are all after market.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

tiburon21 said:


> runs 45 with a stock Evinrude 17" prop and a 130 hp. Thats faster than anything listed on the Evirude performance website.


Hmmmm, I was on a 21 ft Flats Cat with a 130 a few weeks back that would hit 47 with 2 men onboard. Nevermind, it's not a sexy boat so it doesn't count.


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## RedXCross (Aug 7, 2005)

Thats very fast for that hull, I owned a 21' FC for 3 years , at 42mph if you are not careful and aired it out with trim she could swap ends on ya. Ask me how I know. I have done it on another popular hull too!

Fastest I ever got my FC up to was 44mph. and that was tearing the bolts out and telling Scotty to beam me up! 



wolffman73 said:


> Hmmmm, I was on a 21 ft Flats Cat with a 130 a few weeks back that would hit 47 with 2 men onboard. Nevermind, it's not a sexy boat so it doesn't count.


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## BaffinBayAg (Apr 21, 2011)

*Fiberglass is heavier than water*



justletmein said:


> Lighter than fiberglass?
> 
> I've got a dog house that weighs aboot 800 friggin' lbs made out of wood. lol


If you used solid fiberglass for that doghouse with member the exact same size, that dog house would weigh over 1000 lbs and would sink!

Read below:

News flash. wood is less dense than fiberglass. Look up the specific gravity! So, assuming material volumes are the same, the fiber glass would weigh more. Properly constructed fiberglass is stronger and more uniform than wood, so fiberglass does not have to be as thick as wood to be strong. thus, for a given load you can make it lighter. but make no mistake, a 1" cube of fiberglass weighs more than a 1" cube of wood. in fact, the 1 inch cube of fiberglass will sink in water. wood is good core material that can add strength by creating a shear member between two sheets of fiberglass. think I beam. Modern foam cores can be better and lighter than wood for many applications.

Foam core can be part of the construction to reduce weight and add some stiffness, but the actual resin and glass that cover the core material is heavier than wood.

How you people afford boats like this and not learn science?


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

RedXCross said:


> Thats very fast for that hull, I owned a 21' FC for 3 years , at 42mph if you are not careful and aired it out with trim she could swap ends on ya. Ask me how I know. I have done it on another popular hull too!
> 
> Fastest I ever got my FC up to was 44mph. and that was tearing the bolts out and telling Scotty to beam me up!


You are right. The boat felt a little nervous at that point, but I wasn't driving either so maybe he was comfortable with it.


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## BaffinBayAg (Apr 21, 2011)

Specific gravity of steel 7.85

specific gravity of FRP - 1.3 to 1.7

specific gravity of water is of course 1

specific gravity of douglass fir is .36 to .54


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

BaffinBayAg said:


> Specific gravity of steel 7.85
> 
> specific gravity of FRP - 1.3 to 1.7
> 
> ...


we should go back to wood only for boats


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## blow up (Dec 31, 2011)

InfamousJ said:


> let's design a course around the port/ramp area of your choice, point A to point B... I'll let you pick part of the course and I too will pick parts of the course. I figure you'll want to pick the 6" (or less if you think you can do it) parts of it... I'm good with it. Last one from point A to point B is, well you know. How about it?


Well, huh, my dad can beat up your dad.:slimer:


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

BaffinBayAg said:


> If you used solid fiberglass for that doghouse with member the exact same size, that dog house would weigh over 1000 lbs and would sink!
> 
> Read below:
> 
> ...


I guess I missed basic science when learning basic construction.

I would have used a thin sheet of fiberglass whereas the wood is 3/4" for the skin because fiberglass is gonna be stronger. Not to mention the 2x4's for the frame and base.

How thick is the wood he built the boat with compares to the fiberglass version, that's the point here which will be heavier as a finished product. Doesn't matter what an inch of each weighs.


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## blow up (Dec 31, 2011)

justletmein said:


> I guess I missed basic science when learning basic construction.
> 
> I would have used a thin sheet of fiberglass whereas the wood is 3/4" for the skin because fiberglass is gonna be stronger. Not to mention the 2x4's for the frame and base.
> 
> How thick is the wood he built the boat with compares to the fiberglass version, that's the point here which will be heavier as a finished product. Doesn't matter what an inch of each weighs.


He's an aggie, cut him a little slack.


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## BaffinBayAg (Apr 21, 2011)

*Re read*



Stuart said:


> Absolutely


Read this post and re read the previous two. We are saying the same thing.


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## BaffinBayAg (Apr 21, 2011)

*you re read too*



blow up said:


> He's an aggie, cut him a little slack.


This thread was getting carried away with what as lighter than what. I just wanted to point out that it is the overall construction that will ultimately tell the tell.

Here is another one:

Aluminum is lighter that steel. 6061 aluminum can support the same loads as A36 steel. However if you want to design for minimum deflection, you can usually come up with a steel design that is just a light or lighter than aluminum. Why, because the modulus of elasticity is higher for steel than it is for aluminum even if the aluminum allow has the same or higher yield stress then the plain carbon steel.


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## prarie dog (Feb 28, 2011)

BaffinBayAg said:


> If you used solid fiberglass for that doghouse with member the exact same size, that dog house would weigh over 1000 lbs and would sink!
> 
> Read below:
> 
> ...


He's right. They're are some boats built using plywood for a core material that are Epoxy Glassed that wind up significantly lighter than similar conventionally built Fiberglass boat. I have one boat built like this and another almost finished. They are very light and astonishingly strong, since they are covered with glass and epoxy they don't suffer from the rot problems that some boats with wood used in their construction have.

Because the method is so labor intensive I doubt anyone could commercially build and sell them for a profit but they are lighter and stronger than a similar fiberglass boat. If light weight and strength are the criteria for judgement they are superior. If a guy's building one of's or prototypes it's the way to go.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm going for a ride in the prototype next week. I hope it's something new and exciting. I've been in 2" of water on many occasions. Some were successful, some weren't.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

I am skeptical of the 2" claim, but take a look at the YouTube video titled tiburon flats boat. Pay close attention to how the camera is bouncing when it's running down the shoreline, that's the way my boat feels when I'm running in super skinny water. The hull is reacting to subtle changes in the depth. I never see this when running in 4". This thing Looks like it is running super shallow.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

No doubt it will run skinny. 2" remains to be seen. The prop sounds like it is slipping/cavitating a bunch in the videos.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

Want to know how I first figured out it would run in 2"? I hit a water logged 2X4 lying in the sand on its side on the bank and had to fix the hull. ****** me off but I guess it was one way to prove it. If the water was much deeper I wouldnt have gotten drunk trying to calm down! (Im not saying it will run in an 1 1/2 now, the 2X4 was on the side not where the motor was.)


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

You are correct BaffinBayAg. This is why you dont see fighter aircraft made from wood. You have to consider its material properties as well as density. That being said, I over designed the XXXX out of the prototype. Lots of bulkheads and fiberglass over that. Plus I added some pretty mahagony for trim. That alone added 100lbs or more.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

RedXCross said:


> Thats very fast for that hull, I owned a 21' FC for 3 years , at 42mph if you are not careful and aired it out with trim she could swap ends on ya. Ask me how I know. I have done it on another popular hull too!
> 
> Fastest I ever got my FC up to was 44mph. and that was tearing the bolts out and telling Scotty to beam me up!


She rides on rails at any speed. NO hull shimmy whatsover.


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## Spotted Hawg (Apr 15, 2006)

*Wow!*

Sounds like you may have created the "Perfect" boat!:wink: When will production start? Good Luck in your business T21.


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## Taal (Jun 16, 2009)

Boat looks good. Good luck. I love the buisness.


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## BaffinBayAg (Apr 21, 2011)

tiburon21 said:


> You are correct BaffinBayAg. This is why you dont see fighter aircraft made from wood. You have to consider its material properties as well as density. That being said, I over designed the XXXX out of the prototype. Lots of bulkheads and fiberglass over that. Plus I added some pretty mahagony for trim. That alone added 100lbs or more.


Just having a little fun with some design talk. Career took me down project management path. Still fun to talk some design.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

tiburon21 said:


> She rides on rails at any speed. NO hull shimmy whatsover.


Yep, the Flats Cat is not built for speed. I'd think twice about following one into the shallows though.


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## mgeistman (Jun 13, 2012)

wolffman73 said:


> Yep, the Flats Cat is not built for speed. I'd think twice about following one into the shallows though.


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

elgatogus said:


> Ummmmm... Im I missing something here??? Why does everyone bash on the Desperado? Is it that poor of a quality boat? Some one please.. tell me something! Gus


No nothing wrong with them...just J's boat


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

InfamousJ said:


> let's design a course around the port/ramp area of your choice, point A to point B... I'll let you pick part of the course and I too will pick parts of the course. I figure you'll want to pick the 6" (or less if you think you can do it) parts of it... I'm good with it. Last one from point A to point B is, well you know. How about it?


sad2sm


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## Blue Fury (Nov 5, 2006)

wolffman73 said:


> No doubt it will run skinny. 2" remains to be seen. The prop sounds like it is slipping/cavitating a bunch in the videos.


That's a easy fix. Add cup to the prop.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

I dont think that was cavitation, just the exhaust. If it was cavitating, my RPM would be high...it goes up with the jack plat up but not much.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

*How It Works*

Ok. I had to get my patent attorneys ok to talk about how it works in detail. Still no pics yet. I have to state this is patented technology. I based my idea on the concept of a jet engine. Essentially the air flows through the intakes and is compressed and ignited. Its basically a big funnel. There are a couple of differences. Water cannot be compressed and at last check, you cant burn it. But it can be reshaped. The hull is comprised of a reversed (backward) chine that traps water under the hull. This chine is located about 2/3rd of the way from the keel- outboard. From there the water is directed up an angle (deadrise) to a tunnel that has been raised higher by about 3 inches from the running surface than normal tunnels with a flat bottom. The effect of this is to significantly increase and concentrate the water flow in the tunnel. Traditional tunnels only let water to the motor by a factor of their cross-sectional area. This design doubles crossectional area of the tunnel CATs let in more water but do not concentrate it to the prop and intakes. This design both directs and concentrates the water creating an artificial mound of water for the engine to run in. The trick in all this was to design it in such a way to not increase drag. This is where the CAD and analysis systems came into play. I had to iterate the system to optimize water flow and reduce drag. This system is what I have patented. It is a utility patent which means the system cannot be copied due to its mechanical properties. Boats traditionally have a design patent (if at all) but they are aesthetic in nature and can be easily modified and copied with no repurcussions. I call this sytem the *VLS* or* Variable Lift System*. Variable lift because it only comes into play at speeds up to 25-30 MPH. More than that and the boat begins to ride on the reverse chine, not flow water from it. This is where the second stage of the design engages. At higher speeds, the air is trapped between the reverse chine and the outboard chine from the bow to stern. Additionally, the hull is designed as an airfoil shape providing lift AND laminar flow between the water and running surface. Also, the tunnel is raised out of the water flow eliminating drag due to tunnel suction. Computer estimates say this hull design can obtain speeds well in excess of 100MPH. (Not that I recommend that but theoritically possible) So, I am getting the benefit of a ventilated hull (stepped hull) that you see becoming more popular these days without the negatives they induce such as weight, difficulty in layup, reduced draft etc. Also, they have to be running at speed to provide benefit. I have a 32 Fountain that has a stepped hull. You dont feel it take effect until around 40 knots. Fountain says the same thing. I can feel my design take effect after about 30MPH. So, there has been a lot of talk about the draft on plane and speed combination. Because I can effectively raise the tunnel 3 inches higher than most tunnel boats but still get water to it, it stands to reason that it will run very shallow. By lifting the tunnel out of the water flow and shape the hull like an airplane wing, I get lift at the same time. I didnt expect it, but the boat is faster into a strong wind than with it. Hope this is informative. See ya at the boat show!


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

How is it possible to provide lift using an airfoil shape with only one surface area, that being the hull of the boat? As you know, airfoils require 2 surfaces to provide the pressure differential to produce lift. You might also want to look deeper into your patent and the reverse chine you are using. This is the very idea that Flats Cat has a patent on already. Although it's hard for me to tell from where I am standing. If you've got a patent, post the pics up already.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

so, if I were to buy this boat, when I come into a landing at the back lake I'm wanting to be pointing up wind, right?


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

wolffman73 said:


> How is it possible to provide lift using an airfoil shape with only one surface area, that being the hull of the boat? As you know, airfoils require 2 surfaces to provide the pressure differential to produce lift. You might also want to look deeper into your patent and the reverse chine you are using. This is the very idea that Flats Cat has a patent on already. Although it's hard for me to tell from where I am standing. If you've got a patent, post the pics up already.


Not exactly true. The first wings were curved on one side strait on the other. Essentially the nose of the boat is the "other" side. This was proven in the prototype... I get more lift (and slightly more speed) running into at 25 knot wind than with it. The lifting is similiar to flats cat but thats not the part I patented. I have patented the VLS for water flow system. They use the sponsons like a funnel. I use the shape to flow water to and concentrate in a raised tunnel...very different. You cant patent a wing or any lifting body...


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

tiburon21 said:


> Not exactly true. The first wings were curved on one side strait on the other. Essentially the nose of the boat is the "other" side. This was proven in the prototype... I get more lift (and slightly more speed) running into at 25 knot wind than with it. The lifting is similiar to flats cat but thats not the part I patented. I have patented the VLS for water flow system. They use the sponsons like a funnel. I use the shape to flow water to and concentrate in a raised tunnel...very different. You cant patent a wing or any lifting body...


I see. Not trying to be difficult here, but I just can't see that any type of appreciable lift is generated in the common sense (Bernoulli) at the speeds this boat, or other bay boats for that matter, will see. Lots of boats have this shape. Lift gained by velocity pressure, forcing air under the hull and using a horizontal force to produce a vertical force, is a different story though. As far as the laminar flow under sections of the hull, I just can't see that a uniform pad of air can be maintained on anything other than glass-like water. Even so, I feel like the air introduction is doing nothing more than creating a turbulent zone of contact between the water and the hull, which is a good thing as far as speed is concerned.


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

wolffman73 said:


> I see. Not trying to be difficult here, but I just can't see that any type of appreciable lift is generated in the common sense (Bernoulli) at the speeds this boat, or other bay boats for that matter, will see. Lots of boats have this shape. Lift gained by velocity pressure, forcing air under the hull and using a horizontal force to produce a vertical force, is a different story though. As far as the laminar flow under sections of the hull, I just can't see that a uniform pad of air can be maintained on anything other than glass-like water. Even so, I feel like the air introduction is doing nothing more than creating a turbulent zone of contact between the water and the hull, which is a good thing as far as speed is concerned.


Geez man! Are you fishing or trying to go to the moon? :spineyes: 
Are you buying one of these boats?


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

**** this. I'm going to check into a Holiday Inn Express tonight and reread this entire post.


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm glad Railbird is riding in the proto so we can his opinion. I'm also excited to see the finished product and $ since I've been boat shopping for quite some time now.


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## fish1kemah (Feb 26, 2009)

I can understand some of what you are describing is true with my 15' Shallowsport, seems all SS have an aggressive tunnel that really compresses water into a very tight spot but also very clean water. Bottom density has a lot to do with how shallow I am able to run. One thing I have found to be the most important, what ever is bad enough to get you into better be bad enough to get you out. The getting out seems to be one of my major failures, LOL .

F1K


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## Im Headed South (Jun 28, 2006)

Ths thread in a pic lol.


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## 6.5 shooter dude (Jan 8, 2008)

Im Headed South said:


> Ths thread in a pic lol.


What is Freddy fender doing?


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## patwilson (Jan 13, 2006)

LMAO!!!!!!!!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:



Im Headed South said:


> Ths thread in a pic lol.


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## Copano/Aransas (Dec 18, 2011)

Im Headed South said:


> Ths thread in a pic lol.


Thats good stuff right there.:slimer:


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

Cool Hand said:


> Geez man! Are you fishing or trying to go to the moon? :spineyes:
> Are you buying one of these boats?


Oh, one more thing. If the airfoil shape is producing lift, it's negative lift because the "wing" is upside down.


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

wolffman73 said:


> Oh, one more thing. If the airfoil shape is producing lift, it's negative lift because the "wing" is upside down.


Take about a 72hr. beer break. :headknock Your killing me smalls.


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

Jay Baker said:


> What is Freddy fender doing?


...Waisted days and waisted nights


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

wolffman73 said:


> Oh, one more thing. If the airfoil shape is producing lift, it's negative lift because the "wing" is upside down.


Lol who gives a big rat's arse gimmie some shiners,i gots a bucket of brims to catch.


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## RickLued (Mar 7, 2006)

Pop one out and send it to me. I am on the water 4 days a week and will be more than happy to take people out and show em what she can do as well as post up what I can get out of her.


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## Flat's Hunter (Oct 18, 2007)

So when can we expect to see one being sold


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blackhawk78418 (Jul 26, 2011)

Very interesting read.. What causes the air in water the boat rides on? Or am I reading this wrong?


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

Whats facebook ?
Guess I need to be on the computer more and fish less............NOT


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

Only what every SMART business person should have!


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

cough cough bs


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

devil1824 said:


> Only what every SMART business person should have!


That's about as true as a hull shape producing aerodynamic lift at 45 mph.


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## fuzzbuzzeng (Jun 20, 2006)

pay 50-60-70k for the state of the art super shallow running rig and run in 2 to
6 inches of water going 30-40-50mph...what happens when theres a rock or piece of debris laying on the bottom? instant major damage to the hull or if the boat operator shuts the power down because it is getting too **** shallow like the skeg is dragging...the boat will come off plane and be stuck because it is too shallow to float. does this mean you should just run in areas you know or only at high tide?
Seems like a good way to tear up expensive equipment


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## Bird (May 10, 2005)

wolffman73 said:


> That's about as true as a hull shape producing aerodynamic lift at 45 mph.


Don't believe it will work? You go design your own flats boat and post up. Until then why don't you put this thread on your ignore list so we don't have to see another 18 more pages of you bashing some guy trying to come up with something new.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

fuzzbuzzeng said:


> pay 50-60-70k for the state of the art super shallow running rig and run in 2 to
> 6 inches of water going 30-40-50mph...what happens when theres a rock or piece of debris laying on the bottom? instant major damage to the hull or if the boat operator shuts the power down because it is getting too **** shallow like the skeg is dragging...the boat will come off plane and be stuck because it is too shallow to float. does this mean you should just run in areas you know or only at high tide?
> Seems like a good way to tear up expensive equipment


NO PROBLEM! Call Brice at Charter Lakes Insurance as soon as you write that check for the boat and before you leave the parking lot. You can do anything you want after that not worrying about an unforseen accident coming your way.

Charter Lakes Marine Insurance
16113 East Freeway
Channelview, TX 77530

Brice
281-452-7800

or PM Outcast on this website, that's Brice.










he might even be on facebook, who knows


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

Bird said:


> Don't believe it will work? You go design your own flats boat and post up. Until then why don't you put this thread on your ignore list so we don't have to see another 18 more pages of you bashing some guy trying to come up with something new.


I never said it wouldn't work. His videos prove that the boat works. I think if you read back through the entire thread, you'll see that I never bashed the fella. What I did do was question pretty hard some of the engineering pricinciples and jargon he is using as a marketing agenda for this boat. I think it's wrong to come on a board like this, market a product, and back it up with false information. Perhaps his intentions are honest, but some of his claims regarding fluid/aerodynamics are simply not true.


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## firephil (Jul 11, 2006)

So are you an engineer? Everyone would be interested as to why the claims don't work. It's just as poor taste to say it won't work without any facts to back it up . There is a lot of talk on here about the failing physics of it but no fact to back it up. The guy designs airplanes and ships, he ought to have a little sense about it. The engineering principles and jargon don't strike me as a marketing agenda but as information dissemination since there are some pretty intelligent people here. Its all pretty interesting.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

M.E. and from the same school T21 graduated. Take for example his claim that the shape of his hull produces aerodynamic lift. Impossibility. For a "wing", or hull in this case, to provide lift there must be a pressure differential generated. This pressure differential is acquired by forcing air over 2 surfaces. Air will have to pass faster over one of the surfaces to get a pressure differential. This is why airplane wings have a curved top portion of the wing and the bottom is flat. The air is forced to travel a longer distance (and faster) over the top versus the bottom. This creates a lower pressure on the top and hence will produce lift. T21's design has an airfoil shape at the bow, but it is upside down. The low pressure will be seen under the hull, not on top. So, if any "lift" is being generated, it is negative lift which is actually pulling the nose of the boat down.


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## firephil (Jul 11, 2006)

So air funneled under the hull would not be applicable to the "wing principle" but wouldn't that forced air give lift, just not in wing terms? I'm just asking, not picking on you


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## 20bay (Jan 20, 2008)

Wow, is all I can say! Let the guy build a production model of his boat and test it before bashing his design. And oh by the way, my wife is an M. E. (Mechanical Engineer) from the same school as both of you and she can't balance a check book, so your argument is invalid sir!


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

Air forced under the hull would not fall into classical aerodynamic lift. This would be lift caused by "velocity pressure". Kinda like when you are using your leafblower and your doormat lifts off the ground when you blow under it. The horizontal force of the air creates a vertical force on the mat because the air can't escape quick enough and lifts the mat. Many speedboats implement velocity pressure into their designs.

I'm really not trying to bash this guy, I think he has a really unique and efficient way of getting water to the lower unit. I think he should focus on that in his marketing.


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

wolffman73 said:


> I never said it wouldn't work. His videos prove that the boat works. I think if you read back through the entire thread, you'll see that I never bashed the fella. What I did do was question pretty hard some of the engineering pricinciples and jargon he is using as a marketing agenda for this boat. I think it's wrong to come on a board like this, market a product, and back it up with false information. Perhaps his intentions are honest, but some of his claims regarding fluid/aerodynamics are simply not true.


are you a crossing guard? Is it you duty to verify info on this forum?


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

I cant give red from my phone! Its gonna have wait til I get home.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

Nope. Calling it like it is.


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

wolffman73 said:


> Nope. Calling it like it is.


Well let us know when you design a boat so we can bash it.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

Cool Hand said:


> Well let us know when you design a boat so we can bash it.


Cool Hand, I never bashed the boat. I called to question some of the claims being made.


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## mgeistman (Jun 13, 2012)

Cool Hand said:


> Well let us know when you design a boat so we can bash it.


Holy ****!!! Your worse than he is!! Go fishing or something


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## KEMPOC (Aug 24, 2010)

OK, first thing first. It's a good looking boat. I wish you all the best.

Having said that, I think that all the NASA/airfoil/jet engine talk is an attempt to baffle the masses with BS. Wolfman is right - the science does not apply. And, considering your credentials, you know that. For the record - I also know a little about aerodynamics having spent 25,000 hours operating those airfoils and jet engines - and training and certifying others to do so.

So, produce the boat and test it. Publish the data and revel in the results. But for now, comparing your hull to a jet engine, and claiming that the boat runs faster into the wind - well, it just doesn't "fly".

But sincerely - good luck with your endeavor.


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## Bird (May 10, 2005)

KEMPOC said:


> OK, first thing first. It's a good looking boat. I wish you all the best.
> 
> Having said that, I think that all the NASA/airfoil/jet engine talk is an attempt to baffle the masses with BS. Wolfman is right - the science does not apply. And, considering your credentials, you know that. For the record - I also know a little about aerodynamics having spent 25,000 hours operating those airfoils and jet engines - and training and certifying others to do so.
> 
> ...


As a pilot I would think you would appreciate pioneering a new idea. Good thing the Wright brothers didn't share your viewpoint...


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

wolffman73 said:


> I never said it wouldn't work. His videos prove that the boat works. I think if you read back through the entire thread, you'll see that I never bashed the fella. What I did do was question pretty hard some of the engineering pricinciples and jargon he is using as a marketing agenda for this boat. I think it's wrong to come on a board like this, market a product, and back it up with false information. Perhaps his intentions are honest, but some of his claims regarding fluid/aerodynamics are simply not true.


I happen to have 25 years of aerospace design engineering from the B2 to F-35. I personally lofted much of the OML of the B2 wing surface and have worked closely with aerospace design engineering for many years Some of the lift I am seeing could be caused by simple air pressure under the hull. To say its a wing shape is correct. I actually used a NACA airfoil as part of the hull shape mainly to obtain smooth continuous airflow under the hull. I stand by the fact I saw a faster speed (by 2 mph) into the wind than with it. I was very suprised but it proved I was getting lift from the hull that reduced the drag, no matter what specific physics were involved. You should also know that depending on the angle of attack, ANY relatively flat surface could generate lift. Then it becomes a matter of lift -vs-drag. BTW, you can get lift at very slow speeds with the right airfoil surface as well and an airplane with a non symmetric wing shape flying upside down also creates lift...they just have to change the angle of attack. You are basing your opinion on an asymetric airfoil that is parallel to the airflow. That is not the case here. As they say, the proof is in the pudding and I have built the pudding and tested it...nuff said.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

You know, this has gone from being a fun give and take to pretty **** sick. Wolfman I dont care for my credibility to be called into question, nor did I try to baffle anyone. I did not "compare it to a jet engine or airplane". I said I used it as inspiration for the idea and as an analogy to get my idea across. I simply wanted to provide exposure for my boat and get constructive feedback from everyone.


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## gonefishing2 (Apr 28, 2011)

I would like to take a demo ride sometime soon. I will be amazed if you have that outboard boat, running in 2 inches of water. There is no such thing, as claimed by many many others. I want to believe but I will have to see for myself. When can you take me out, I got a check it stick we can find some shallow sand. I am not knocking you at all, and if true, you are genius.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

tiburon21 said:


> You know, this has gone from being a fun give and take to pretty **** sick. Wolfman I dont care for my credibility to be called into question, nor did I try to baffle anyone. I did not "compare it to a jet engine or airplane". I said I used it as inspiration for the idea and as an analogy to get my idea across. I simply wanted to provide exposure for my boat and get constructive feedback from everyone.


Don't worry about it, people are just mad because the resale value of their Shallow Sports will be dropping. LMAO :rotfl:

So when will the 1st production boat be ready?


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## PastorD (Jul 2, 2012)

justletmein said:


> Don't worry about it, people are just mad because the resale value of their Shallow Sports will be dropping. LMAO :rotfl:
> 
> So when will the 1st production boat be ready?


LMAO!!!! Great for banging your teeth


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## txjustin (Jun 3, 2009)

I'm interested in it. Keep us updated.


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## deadsands (Oct 22, 2010)

Ahh, engineers. Well now.


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## deadsands (Oct 22, 2010)

Understanding Engineers 
In some foreign country a priest, a lawyer and an engineer are about to be guillotined.
The priest puts his head on the block, they pull the rope and nothing happens -- he declares that he's been saved by divine intervention -- so he's let go.
The lawyer is put on the block, and again the rope doesn't release the blade, he claims he can't be executed twice for the same crime he is set free too.

They grab the engineer and shove his head into the guillotine, he looks up at the release mechanism and says, "Wait a minute, I see your problem......"


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## rattler (Feb 20, 2006)

deadsands said:


> They grab the engineer and shove his head into the guillotine, he looks up at the release mechanism and says, "Wait a minute, I see your problem......"


:rotfl:

LOL.

Same exact reason I can't give my older brother a golf lesson. Way to analytical.

Keep up the interesting work T21.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

I took a ride in the prototype today. I will review it in a post later tonight. I need to sit down and collect my thoughts on it a bit.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

My thoughts,

I spent about an hour riding around the upper laguna madre. My first thought is it is a very nice design. I can say it is different in look than i expected, but it functions very well in the area we were testing in. We went out in the open bay, winds were fairly light, but there was enough chop to tell the ride is comparable to a cat hull. When quartering into the wind, we picked up some spray, but he exlpained the prototyle does not have all the chines and whatnot to deflect the water downward. The production model has these designed in. You have to understand the prototype is a wood hull built to test tunnel and general hull performance, so he gets a break on this issue. We didn't have time to explore super shallow areas, we did run a simular area to what was on the youtube video. It is going to operate very simular to the illusion and will likely run shallower than some of the various cat hull designs. The water we crossed was in the 2-3" range, but it was a very short distance. I feel confident it will run all day in 3-4 inches, not positive it will do any shallower unless over a soft slick bottom. The boat turns very well. As for speed, we were in a light wind, but the prototype hit 40mph into the wind and was around 38mph with the wind. With a 130hp on a heavy prototype, 40 mph is impressive. This hull is likely much heavier than any production model that will come out of this shop, so speed will be better on the production model. I got a look at the bottom, and will not describe it here, but i can say it is much different than what i have seen on any bay boat around here. If the hp is there, it looks like it could be a pretty fast hull. We were running wide open and trimmed it all the way into the tilt and it did not propose in any way. That means it will not require trim tabs, but he says it will come standard on all hulls to enhance shallow water performance and handling. In my opinion, the claims made on performance are pretty much in line with what he has stated. As for all the technical discussion about how it works, i will leave it up to you guys to debate that.

@ 22' it can have unlimited horse power, I would like to see what kind of speed this hull will achieve with a 300 proxs on the back. It might give eric a run for his money. 

chuck


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

Good report. Lots of negativity in this thread that needs to be laid to rest now. Once again, good luck with the production model.


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## PastorD (Jul 2, 2012)

*Staybashi*



wolffman73 said:


> Cool Hand, I never bashed the boat. I called to question some of the claims being made.


Cool Hand bashes people's boats all of the time, never ends. His SS is a knock-off with jacked up army green lower unit from I can tell


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## mgeistman (Jun 13, 2012)

devil1824 said:


> Good report. Lots of negativity in this thread that needs to be laid to rest now. Once again, good luck with the production model.


I'm pretty sure the F-22 has done 90+mph


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

It's not the f'ing f-22!! Geez. Pull your head out of your ***. It IS apparently a NEW boat that someone has dreamed up and not copied from anyone. I read the report. Sounds like it should be fast and shallow. It might and might not go 90, but it certainly sounds like its shallower then the f22. This is getting laughable.


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## fattyflattie (May 20, 2008)

I don't care how the boat performs, even though I fully trust Railbirds evaluation. I absolutely love the fact this man put what seems to be alot of work and thought into his hull, and is making it happen. It is refreshing to see something other than another popped hull. It's also refreshing to hear the engineering principles behind it, not just "it packs air". 

Good luck Tiburon on designing and creating a unique fishing boat.


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## CAPSIZED (Aug 10, 2004)

Ive never seen a 27" redfish in 2 inches of water and if I did he would be dying. Why do you guys care if you can run 45 in 2 inches of water? Please someone build a nice V-hull boat 23-25 ft. That can get on plane in less than 1' of water and run 45 in *True* 2-3 foot chop. I will buy that one.


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## KEMPOC (Aug 24, 2010)

Bird said:


> As a pilot I would think you would appreciate pioneering a new idea. Good thing the Wright brothers didn't share your viewpoint...


Re-read my post. I never said anything to indicate that I am adverse to "pioneering a new idea". In fact, I wished the man luck - sincerely. I did offer constructive criticism and I stand by it. I will discuss aerodynamics with ANYONE. I am an expert on the subject. 
In simple terms - a boat hull is a planing surface. Pressure from below supports it. An airfoil "sucks" the airplane into the air. Low (relative to the bottom) pressure on top lifts the wing. The 2 concepts are not even tangentially related and to suggest that they are is disingenuous.
Sorry Thiburon, thats just the way it is. I still wish you success.
On the other hand, I am hugely impressed by anyone that can whoop that out in a woodshop. Very nice!


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## theyallbreak (Jan 29, 2012)

Tiburon.. I was wondering since you are achieveing lift with the hull what are the possibility of the hull coming off the water due to higher speeds that will be achieved with a lighter hull and bigger motors.


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

KEMPOC said:


> Re-read my post. I never said anything to indicate that I am adverse to "pioneering a new idea". In fact, I wished the man luck - sincerely. I did offer constructive criticism and I stand by it. I will discuss aerodynamics with ANYONE. I am an expert on the subject.
> In simple terms - a boat hull is a planing surface. Pressure from below supports it. An airfoil "sucks" the airplane into the air. Low (relative to the bottom) pressure on top lifts the wing. The 2 concepts are not even tangentially related and to suggest that they are is disingenuous.
> Sorry Thiburon, thats just the way it is. I still wish you success.
> On the other hand, I am hugely impressed by anyone that can whoop that out in a woodshop. Very nice!


thanks for the polite and positive encouragement KEMPOC. Let me just point out that you also have to consider the angle of attack or the wing chord plane angle relative to the airflow direction. I used approx. 14 deg angle of attack from a NACA airfoil nose shape in laying out the hull in the bow and blended that shape into the hull as it moves aft. I am sure you would agree that positive lift is possible in this scenario because my hull is essentially "flying" upside down with sufficient angle of attack to create lift...just like a plane flying upside down. Now, it could be that I could get the same result from a flat surface at the same angle, but since my boat will run faster into the wind than with it, I tend to think it was a successful design in producing lift with minimal drag.


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## PastorD (Jul 2, 2012)

*My boy is wicked smart!*



tiburon21 said:


> thanks for the polite and positive encouragement KEMPOC. Let me just point out that you also have to consider the angle of attack or the wing chord plane angle relative to the airflow direction. I used approx. 14 deg angle of attack from a NACA airfoil nose shape in laying out the hull in the bow and blended that shape into the hull as it moves aft. I am sure you would agree that positive lift is possible in this scenario because my hull is essentially "flying" upside down with sufficient angle of attack to create lift...just like a plane flying upside down. Now, it could be that I could get the same result from a flat surface at the same angle, but since my boat will run faster into the wind than with it, I tend to think it was a successful design in producing lift with minimal drag.


BAM!


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## KEMPOC (Aug 24, 2010)

PastorD said:


> BAM!


No, not "Bam". You, Pastor, are too easily impressed by multisyllabic words. I could wax eloquent in response to Tiburon but that would surely lead to a tighteneing vortex of negativity. Instead, I am going to climb back onto the high road.

With that I say good luck in your endeavor. SCB has demonstrated that there is a market for "go fast" fishing boats. I hope you are successful in developing and marketing a such a platform. Competition leads to advancement.


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## PastorD (Jul 2, 2012)

KEMPOC said:


> No, not "Bam". You, Pastor, are too easily impressed by multisyllabic words. I could wax eloquent in response to Tiburon but that would surely lead to a tighteneing vortex of negativity. Instead, I am going to climb back onto the high road.
> 
> With that I say good luck in your endeavor. SCB has demonstrated that there is a market for "go fast" fishing boats. I hope you are successful in developing and marketing a such a platform. Competition leads to advancement.


Come on, wax eloquent. Lmao, shill.

SCB designed a boat that looks great and will do 70+ if you hang a 250 - 300 hp on the transom. Cutting edge, probably not. Anyway you spin it they, SCB, succeed where others fail. Probably a fluke.


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## bay blazer 1973 (Aug 9, 2011)

Tiburon 21, I would like to wish good luck with your dream and your design. At this point in the game do you have a idea of what your boat will cost in the 22-23 Ft class? I may have missed it, but where in Texas will your boats be produced ? 
Sir, again I wish you all the luck !


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## grosbc (May 3, 2009)

*Thread*

What a great thread. My summary after 23 pages... Basically, we have three people who have aerospace / engineering experience. One spent a lot of time thinking of, designing, and building a prototype. His claims have been mostly backed up by a reputable person on this board. The other two who haven't seen, ridden in, or have much knowledg of the prototype have concluded the engineering and claims are flawed.

My thoughts are that we should applaud Tiburon for going out on a limb, designing, testing, and hopefully one day bringing new technology to the boating industry. Everyone wins if that happens. SCB has the credibility to get orders on a new hull before its been tested, but that's not the case here. These boats won't sell until they're tested and proven, so if the claims are not true, it simply won't sell. If Tiburon's hull does what he claims - it will sell and he'll do well. If not, the only thing lost is a bunch of forum space and time.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

grosbc said:


> What a great thread. My summary after 23 pages... Basically, we have three people who have aerospace / engineering experience. One spent a lot of time thing of, designing, and building a prototype. His claims have been mostly backed up by a reputable person on this board. The other two who haven't seen, ridden in, or have much knowledg of the prototype have concluded the engineering and claims are flawed.
> 
> My thoughts are that we should applaud Tiburon for going out on a limb, designing, testing, and hopefully one day bringing new technology to the boating industry. Everyone wins if that happens. SCB has the credibility to get orders on a new hull before its been tested, but that's not the case here. These boats won't sell until they're tested and proven, so if the claims are not true, it simply won't sell. If Tiburon's hull does what he claims - it will sell and he'll do well. If not, the only thing lost is a bunch of forum space and time.


^^

:an5:

greenie incoming


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## tiburon21 (Aug 27, 2012)

bay blazer 1973 said:


> Tiburon 21, I would like to wish good luck with your dream and your design. At this point in the game do you have a idea of what your boat will cost in the 22-23 Ft class? I may have missed it, but where in Texas will your boats be produced ?
> Sir, again I wish you all the luck !


Thanks for your interest. The first hull will be a 22. Will be produced in Corpus. I havent nailed down a cost yet and of course it will depend on power, rigging etc. It will be a high end, high quality boat. and will likely come standard with the basics (you know power pole, stereo, trim tabs, jack plate etc  ) I am shooting for somewhere in the $50-60K range but wont know for sure till we get to market. I will be offering pre-production purchase specials in the next couple of months at a significant discount once I get a better handle on my costs.


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## panhandle_slim (Jun 1, 2012)

KEMPOC said:


> Charming.:headknock


If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's probably a duck.


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

KEMPOC said:


> Charming.:headknock


Hello kettle.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

PastorD said:


> Cool Hand bashes people's boats all of the time, never ends. His SS is a knock-off with jacked up army green lower unit from I can tell


say it aint so.. is he driving around in a Flaco?


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## fattyflattie (May 20, 2008)

PastorD said:


> Come on, wax eloquent. Lmao, shill.
> 
> SCB designed a boat that looks great and will do 70+ if you hang a 250 - 300 hp on the transom. Cutting edge, probably not. Anyway you spin it they, SCB, succeed where others fail. Probably a fluke.


Define designed. Last I checked the Recon is in the mid 60's. As for the other models, I don't know if I would say thier SCB's design, unless the topsides are driving the performance.


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## theyallbreak (Jan 29, 2012)

theyallbreak said:


> Tiburon.. I was wondering since you are achieveing lift with the hull what are the possibility of the hull coming off the water due to higher speeds that will be achieved with a lighter hull and bigger motors.


I did not post this trying be a **** are a smartarse. I would like to know this, happens all the time in race boats when air gets under them


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## Gilbert (May 25, 2004)

PastorD said:


> Come on, wax eloquent. Lmao, shill.
> 
> SCB designed a boat that looks great and will do 70+ if you hang a 250 - 300 hp on the transom. Cutting edge, probably not. Anyway you spin it they, SCB, succeed where others fail. Probably a fluke.


what came first? SCB or Lanier? :cop:


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

InfamousJ said:


> say it aint so.. is he driving around in a Flaco?


LOL no,mine is a Shallow Sport.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

theyallbreak said:


> I did not post this trying be a **** are a smartarse. I would like to know this, happens all the time in race boats when air gets under them


Valid question ^^ I'm curious also.


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

InfamousJ said:


> say it aint so.. is he driving around in a Flaco?


Well.....im not riding in boat that looks like a big toe with a transom on it.


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## PastorD (Jul 2, 2012)

Cool Hand said:


> Well.....im not riding in boat that looks like a big toe with a transom on it.


Lmfao!!! Here comes the toe!

A moose knuckle


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## younggun55 (Jun 18, 2009)

theyallbreak said:


> I did not post this trying be a **** are a smartarse. I would like to know this, happens all the time in race boats when air gets under them


At 60 mph there won't be an issue haha...that happens at speeds well over 100. My dad disintegrated his tfj drag boat at 160+mph back in day from it trying to take flight.


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## theyallbreak (Jan 29, 2012)

younggun55 said:


> At 60 mph there won't be an issue haha...that happens at speeds well over 100. My dad disintegrated his tfj drag boat at 160+mph back in day from it trying to take flight.


Most boats i would agree.. I was under the impression that he was trying to get air under the hull to reduce drag. I understand most of this being an A&P but i am not a engineer.


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

Don't worry, Being an engineer is waaay over rated. lol. I have to work with them daily.


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## Spotted Hawg (Apr 15, 2006)

*x2*



devil1824 said:


> Don't worry, Being an engineer is waaay over rated. lol. I have to work with them daily.


I just stay at a Holiday Inn Express:smile:


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

theyallbreak said:


> I did not post this trying be a **** are a smartarse. I would like to know this, happens all the time in race boats when air gets under them


It could happen. Recommend installing extra large trim tabs just in case. You'll be able to control the boat back down to a safe altitude.


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## KEMPOC (Aug 24, 2010)

wolffman73 said:


> It could happen. Recommend installing extra large trim tabs just in case. You'll be able to control the boat back down to a safe altitude.


Remember - pitch for speed and power for altitude. Find yourself in a dead end canal - pull her up to the 45 and split S back where you came from. But, be careful not to induce an accelerated stall as you pull through the bottom. Maybe that could be one of the "basics" - an AOA indicator.

I'm just joking - nobody bust an aneurysm please. :cheers:


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

KEMPOC said:


> Remember - pitch for speed and power for altitude. Find yourself in a dead end canal - pull her up to the 45 and split S back where you came from. But, be careful not to induce an accelerated stall as you pull through the bottom. Maybe that could be one of the "basics" - an AOA indicator.
> 
> I'm just joking - nobody bust an aneurysm please. :cheers:


Oh, they will. Pretty sensitive group we have here. I lost count of the reddies I've received on this thread. Patiently awaiting Devil's response.


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry I'm late. I'm watching Baylor... It's all good. Sam Adams Octoberfest is going down good tonight.:cheers:


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## KEMPOC (Aug 24, 2010)

devil1824 said:


> Sorry I'm late. I'm watching Baylor... It's all good. Sam Adams Octoberfest is going down good tonight.:cheers:


Me too. "One is too many and twelve just aint enough!":cheers:


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

WOW! I say it's all good and get a reddie? Who's a whiney boy? Hypocrite. I guess that's the response you were waiting on. lol.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

devil1824 said:


> WOW! I say it's all good and get a reddie? Who's a whiney boy? Hypocrite. I guess that's the response you were waiting on. lol.


I'll give it back shortly Devil. It won't let me add to your rep right now.


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## Shallow Sport68 (Oct 14, 2008)

This thread still going :rotfl:


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Grown men, settle down on the reddie war.


Lmao


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