# Split Grips



## Raymond Adams (Apr 17, 2008)

To answer Capt. Neil's question from another thread and start the conversation
in a new thread.

The split rear grip just plane looks cool but the original idea was just to use less
material and save some weight and enhance sensitivity (primarily for bass rods).
Then builders quickly discovered the "extra canvas" the open area provides and
really ran with it.

Most of the rods I build have split grips but there are more than a few builds I really choose a full length grip. For kids is a good example (for some kids anyway) or for a rod that see's a lot of rod holder time. "Exposing" also means "unprotected" and that can be a bad trade-off for more canvas and some tiny weight savings.


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## captneilf (Feb 29, 2008)

Hi Ray,

Good job moving the question here.

Valid points!

Sensitivity! Very important, especially to those who fish using very light lures. 99.9% of my rods are salt water, boat and surf. When a guy is slinging a bait and weight combo that may weigh 12 ounces or bottom fishing with 10-20 ounce sinkers I have other issues more critical than sensitivity, like designing a rod that stays together with a gorilla using it. Ha!!!

Neil


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## E. Harry (May 8, 2008)

Raymond,
I agree with you that there is some beautiful work being done by some builders in the split grip area but I think that those that are using split grips to improve sensitivity are fooling themselves. I have not measured it but I am willing to bet that the weight of the wraps and epoxy that is applied in the area between the two grips weighs as much as the cork that is eliminated. Epoxy is surprisingly heavy.

Captneilf,
I would sure agree with you that on heavy duty boat and surf rods sensitivity may well not be the most important consideration when making the trade-offs that we make when building those rods. But I do not think that there is any point to adding weight, mass actually, that is not necessary to any rod. Even on boat rods less mass will result in better fish bite detection and on a surf rod added mass will result in lowering the rods resonant frequency which will result in the rod not casting as well.


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## captneilf (Feb 29, 2008)

E. Harry

Hi,

Well stated. It always amazes me that many folks will not change to a better designed rod. They just refuse to change. Ha, they started with a 75 MM wire stripper guide and by gosh they will still use the same. I love it when I get a customer that challenges and pushes me to give him the best catching/casting tool.

Neil


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## Raymond Adams (Apr 17, 2008)

E. Harry said:


> Raymond,
> I agree with you that there is some beautiful work being done by some builders in the split grip area but I think that those that are using split grips to improve sensitivity are fooling themselves. I have not measured it but I am willing to bet that the weight of the wraps and epoxy that is applied in the area between the two grips weighs as much as the cork that is eliminated. Epoxy is surprisingly heavy.
> 
> Hi Emory,
> ...


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## Terrynj (Jun 27, 2006)

Most of my trout rods are split grips, I like the look and the feel of the rod. I tend to like the reel further up the rod for balance. Topwaters are my favorite, which require a constant twitching motion...whether you are using mostly your forearm or you wrist, it adds up by the end of the day. With the reel back towards the butt, the tip of the rod feels heavier and your wrist has to lift against the weight with every twitch or jigging motion. If you are palming a reel that is almost at the balance point on the rod, you don't have to "lift" the tip of the rod so much.....so you can just "rock" your wrist with much less effort. I also believe this helps in the feel and sensitivity since your muscles are not quite so tense. 

I think everyone is right about the weight savings...there is some savings by not having a full grip, but then we throw it back on with the "Decorations"..haha. On my more seroius rods I just paint them with no wraps or traditional finishes.


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## pg542 (Oct 9, 2006)

Yeah........What Terry said


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## captneilf (Feb 29, 2008)

Good morning!

I am enjoying this thread as rod builders are explaining their preferences regarding the topic.

Sensitivity, I find this to be very subjective. Without real means of measurement it is in the mind of the beholder. I do believe that some of us have hands that are more sensitive than others and may feel more than we do. I will even state that it is a perception and if the angler thinks the combo he is fishing with is sensitive than power to him.

Real sensitivity is probably hand lining fish using braided line!

Braided line, yes I believe an angler will feel more and they equate that to sensitivity. Working party boats as a mate and captain I have personal issues about handling braided line. But I do recognize it's value. I still try it every now and then as quite often I will be out fished by my friends that use braid while I use mono. Don't laugh but I find braided line transmits more up the line than I need, like every pebble. Ha, it drives me nuts!

These discussions are great among rod designer/builders. If most of my customers read these posts they would think we are crazy. They want a rod that feels good to them, provides fun while reeling in fish and some want to own/fish with a rod crafted by a certain person. However, these discussions help all of us that are interested in designing them better fishing tools.

Now if my customer base was tournament anglers, anglers very technically involved with rods and reels, had tohave the latest art work etc then I would be in trouble. I do build for excellent anglers who are very involved in the catching process, rigs, colors, locations etc. Unfortunately many of them think about their rods as an after thought. To many they place more emphasis on the reel. Hey, they keep me busy and enable me to pay the real estate taxes which are ourtageous in my area.

Have a great day!!!

Neil


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## mlv (Oct 12, 2007)

*I would say, about 99% of my bass fishing clients, prefer split grips, and their reason is, for increased sensitivity, especially on a worm rod...*
*And.....9 chances out of 10, they want a " barebone" rod, so there is no additional weight...needless to say, they are the most boring rod I build ..*

*ML...:texasflag *


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## d4rdbuilder (Jan 19, 2007)

Great thread guys and alot of great information! 

I agree with the rest concerning split grips. You cut out the center of your grip to save weight, then decorate it with something that is at least as heavy as what you removed, but being as it's in the location it's in really doesn't effect the overall action of the rod as much as say the smallest of guides do. I mean lets face it, anything we add to a blank aids in distroying the action and sensitivity of that particular rod. 

I like split grips not for the weight savings, because I'm as guility as anyone about decorating the area between the grips. It looks coooool. Thats why I like to remove the center of my seats and expose the blank under the reel, because as Terry, I too palm the reel and the exposed area under the reel allows me to stay in constent contact with what's going on. I also don't build many with a forgrips anymore.


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## Terrynj (Jun 27, 2006)

Captneilf -" I will even state that it is a perception and if the angler thinks the combo he is fishing with is sensitive than power to him."

That I think is the defining statement....my wife loves the rod she is currently fishing and that rod is one of my first ones. I kept telling her I am going to make her a new one with the current latest and greatest and *she doesn't want it*! She has confidence in her old rod and that is that! End of subject!

Of course I am going to build her one anyway and she will get confindence in that one!


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## mark blabaum (Dec 6, 2007)

Ray working with wood that center section that I remove saves me quite a bit of weight. Also with burl cork it saves quite a bit of weight, with regular cork not so much. If I used preformed grips it really wouldn't make sense to make them into split grips as the weight savings would be nill. I do however like the extra canvas between the grips and I also like the look of the split grips as it's something that you can't find at the big box stores. It sets my rods apart from the Walmarts of the world.


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## d4rdbuilder (Jan 19, 2007)

*Good Point*



mark blabaum said:


> Ray working with wood that center section that I remove saves me quite a bit of weight. Also with burl cork it saves quite a bit of weight, with regular cork not so much. If I used preformed grips it really wouldn't make sense to make them into split grips as the weight savings would be nill. I do however like the extra canvas between the grips and I also like the look of the split grips as it's something that you can't find at the big box stores. It sets my rods apart from the Walmarts of the world.


To me custom is just that. Rods built to preform, with the finest componets, and custom artwork to boot!


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## E. Harry (May 8, 2008)

I will sure agree that split grips can look cool but again I think that most rod builders are fooling themselves about it improving sensitivity.
Measuring Sensitivity,
I will agree that sensitivity can be somewhat subjective but it can be measured depending upon how we define it. I define sensitivity as the portion of the input energy from the fish's bite that gets to the fisherman's hand. I measure it by placing a strain gage connected to an oscilloscope at the point on the rod where the fisherman's hand will be and then simulate the fish's bite by attaching a small weight on a known length of line to the tip of the rod. I drop the weight a known distance which results in a known input at the tip of the rod and measure with the strain gage how much of this input gets to the strain gage (fisherman's hand).
Braided Line,
How much braided line will improve sensitivity can also be measured using basically the same technique. How much of the input from the fish gets to the fisherman's hand that is determined by the line is a function mainly of three things; the mass density which you can think of as the lines weight, the line's elasticity which you can think of as the stretch in the line and the amount of tension on the line.
I dislike braided lines for several reasons but you cannot logically argue that it does not result in better sensitivity, in fact, a lot better. It weighs much less than mono for a given strength and it has much less stretch than mono.


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## d4rdbuilder (Jan 19, 2007)

Emory, no one can argue with these facts. The less we do to add to a particular rods overall weight increases not only the rods performance but its ability to transfere vibrations to the user or sensitivity. 

I've read alot of your posts over the last couple of years and would have to say your knowledge is second to none on this subject. But, they still look cooooooool LOL!

Thanks for posting here and as said before.... Welcome.


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## E. Harry (May 8, 2008)

d4rdbuilder,
You will not get any argument from me on that score. They do look cool. And fortunately if there is added weight it is at a point on the rod where it has less affect on sensitivity and the rods resonant frequency than if the added weight were further up the rod.


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## pg542 (Oct 9, 2006)

.........besides, when those days come when you couldn't buy a strike, looking cool helps a little...........regardless of sensitivity.


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## mark blabaum (Dec 6, 2007)

pg542 said:


> .........besides, when those days come when you couldn't buy a strike, looking cool helps a little...........regardless of sensitivity.


Ain't that the truth (lol).


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## Billy 40 (Apr 3, 2008)

E. Harry said:


> Even on boat rods less mass will result in better fish bite detection and on a surf rod added mass will result in lowering the rods resonant frequency which will result in the rod not casting as well.


You left out the most important part of using a boat rod or surf rod - balance. GO ahead and build an 11-15' rod, and build the grips as light as you can. IT will be even more tip heavy than they already are. Same goes for a boat rod, where all too often teh front part of a split grip will rest right on teh edge of an aluminum rod holder - if using a straight grip, it will not get chewed up as quickly as a split grip will - I leanred this the hard way. And again, removing weight fom teh butt can do all that Physics stuff, but it will also run teh rick of making a rod tip heavy which is really sucky to fish with.

If anyone thinks removing 6" from teh butt of a surf rod will reduce it's casting performance to any significant degree - you've neer cast or seen a surf rod cast.


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## pg542 (Oct 9, 2006)

......my rods used to be sensitive. Yes and even a little supportive too. Then they found out that it was all my fault...... Lately, when I walk by the rodrack, they just snicker at me.............Now I'm gettin' sensitive..........


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## E. Harry (May 8, 2008)

Billy,
With this like most things we disagree. I think that the static balance of a rod is less important than a number of the other characteristics of rod. The dynamic balance is more important than the static balance but again that is determined by what you call "all of that Physics stuff".


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## Billy 40 (Apr 3, 2008)

All anyone cares about is how the rod balances while fishing. Nobody wants to carry a Physics textbook to know what static or dynamic balance is, tehy just wan tthe rod to balance in their hands. Less weight in teh butt, shorter butt grip length, the more important it is to have extra weight in teh butt, not less. This is specifically regarding bottom and surf rods, which is what Neil builds most. You can prove on paper all you want why one method is better than another, but it's not qorth squat once teh rod is actually used and doesn't perform in a way that make people want to fish the rod again.


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## Steve Gardner (Mar 23, 2008)

Billy;

That may not be very eloquently stated, but it is one of the truest most accurate statements you have ever posted!


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## E. Harry (May 8, 2008)

Billy and Steve,
You do not have to carry a physics text with you but I think that it would be beneficial for you in terms of building better rods to understand just a little high school physics. 
Almost all rods are statically tip heavy but most do not feel tip heavy because a high percentage of the mass is concentrated at the balance point, or the fulcrum, at the reel. The real problem in dynamically balancing a rod is the inertia that is the result of the mass and the distribution of the mass. And any increase in mass will result in increased inertia and reduce the rods performance. The sensitivity will drop with increased mass as will most of the other performance characteristics of the rod.
Attempting to statically balance a rod, typically by adding weight to the butt of the rod, is a fools errand.
Oh, by the way, Billy just so we understand each other, I know that you were baiting me like I have seen you do to others a number of times. But frankly I think that you need better bait.


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## Billy 40 (Apr 3, 2008)

What bait? Your lone concern is making the rod lighter, regardless of any other factor. That's equivalent to someone who builds a rod soley focused on decorating it. You need to find a balance between the 2, building the lightest rod you can while making it comfortable while fishing it. 

YOu can HS Physics everyone to death, the fact remains that teh rods in question perform worse with split grips, 100% of the time. I rather get my answers from actually fishing the rods, rather thanstudying them in a science lab. That is bait.


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## pg542 (Oct 9, 2006)

..........yawn.......


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## OwenD (Mar 31, 2008)

pg542 said:


> ......my rods used to be sensitive. Yes and even a little supportive too. Then they found out that it was all my fault...... Lately, when I walk by the rodrack, they just snicker at me.


ROFL
That could be a "Far Side" cartoon. :cheers:


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## kenny (May 21, 2004)

The trick to marketing any product, whether it's fishing rods or laundry detergent, is to make it "new & improved". Split grips are a gimmick to sell more rods period.......and they look cool!


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## Terrynj (Jun 27, 2006)

pg542 said:


> ......my rods used to be sensitive. Yes and even a little supportive too. Then they found out that it was all my fault...... Lately, when I walk by the rodrack, they just snicker at me.............Now I'm gettin' sensitive..........


ROTFLMAO - That's funny Jim....I think you and your rods may need counseling though!


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## Fishtoys (Jul 4, 2007)

*For Billy*

YOu can HS Physics everyone to death, the fact remains that teh rods in question perform worse with split grips, 100% of the time. I rather get my answers from actually fishing the rods, rather thanstudying them in a science lab. That is bait. 

Billy out of curiousity why does the split grip perform worse than a straight? I agree w/ you as to the balance of the rod not the physics. Ed


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## Billy 40 (Apr 3, 2008)

Fishtoys said:


> Billy out of curiousity why does the split grip perform worse than a straight?


I'm specifically talking about boat & surf rods, keep that in mind.

"IT will be even more tip heavy than they already are. Same goes for a boat rod, where all too often teh front part of a split grip will rest right on teh edge of an aluminum rod holder - if using a straight grip, it will not get chewed up as quickly as a split grip will - I leanred this the hard way. And again, removing weight fom teh butt can do all that Physics stuff, but it will also run teh rick of making a rod tip heavy which is really sucky to fish with. "

I have a few light SW rods with split grips, which I have to babysit every time I put them in a rod holder - I tie a rag to teh rail and make sure I put the rag around the edge of teh holder before putting the rod in thre. If I do not do this, the cork will die a quick death as teh boat bounces over waves, and the rod rolls back and forth with teh reel adding weight.

On long PB rods, such as Cod rods - the split grips do a great job of reducing weight, but depending on teh length of those grips, the rod often feels tip heavy, especially when guys use heavy guides such as USG's, which is fairly common. Saving 1oz in teh butt of an 8'+ rod which weighs 24oz, is spinning wheels.

Another issue with split grips, is people crank in fish with the rod tucked under their armpit. Foam in teh butt will "stick" under your arm, which bare blank will slide around. The thickness of teh foam in teh butt on this type of rod is a neccesary comfort feature for many since it make cmaping down on teh rod with their armpit to help lift/crank fish up.

On surf rods - I know many are sold with split EVA grips, but those who actually surf fish (lol) up here are 100% cork tape or shrink tube guys. Adding a split grip on one of these rods actually increases the weight of teh rod since the cork tape is needed to cover the blank to protect it from rocks.


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## d4rdbuilder (Jan 19, 2007)

*Most of us?*



Billy 40 said:


> You need to find a balance between the 2, building the lightest rod you can while making it comfortable while fishing it.


I think that's the result most of us are looking for.


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## Fishtoys (Jul 4, 2007)

On surf rods - I know many are sold with split EVA grips, but those who actually surf fish (lol) up here are 100% cork tape or shrink tube guys. Adding a split grip on one of these rods actually increases the weight of teh rod since the cork tape is needed to cover the blank to protect it from rocks. 

Thank you B. this is what I was refering too. I guess it is different up east from down south, my idea of surf is either chunking BBTB or running lines out off the beach. Although lots of guys do use cork or shrink which makes sense to protect them on the jetties or possibly in the rod holder, in this sense I could see why a straight grip would be necessary. Different strokes for different folks. Again thanks. Ed


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## Steve Gardner (Mar 23, 2008)

I agree with Billy on his assessment of "boat and surf rods with split grips"


But in building and fishing bass rods none of these problems occur, I never use rod holders and never tuck the rods up under my arm pits. 

Usually just hand support or allow the grip to run under the length of my forearm. In which case the split is more comfortable because the gap between the two and the trapper of the grip conform to my arm muscles instead of just being a strait shaft that pushes into the fat part of my arm muscle (hope I explained that well enough)


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## ToddyTrout (Mar 15, 2005)

*great discussion*

Hi guys, I build mostly rods for trout and red fishing on the Texas coast. I find that although the split grips look cool, most people that I have built for in the past pay very little attention to the decorative part of the rod while fishing but pay much attention to the feel and balance. This doesn't mean that I don't take a great deal of pride in my butt wraps and designs because I do try to get them perfect every time. As a fisherman myself it seems to me that the majority of the feel is transmitted from the tip of the rod and if the rod is well balanced then the transmission or sensitivity is much better. I even go as far as to put my rod at a 45 degree angle while the epoxy in the reel seet sets up. This is the angle at which the rod is used a lot of the time and it is just another dimension of fine tuning the balance issue. If the rod is still a little to tip heavy I have even used a small piece of lead tape under the butt cap.

just my 2 cents, Todd


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## E. Harry (May 8, 2008)

Todd,
If the rod feels better to you when you add weight at the butt then do it. Ater all it is your rod but do not fool your self into thinking that this will improve the sensitivity. It will not. Balance and sensitivity are two different things. In fact, it will reduce the sensitivity. Any added weight will reduce the rods sensitivity.
I would also argue that if you add weight to balance the rod this balance will change when a reel is added. If you balance the rod with the reel attached the balance will change again when the line is strung through the guides and a lure is added. Plus once the rod is put into motion when casting the inertia that is a result of the rod, line and lures mass and the distribution of the mass will take over and that is what will determine how the rod feels.
You will get the best sensitivity if you keep the total mass as low as possible.
There is another way of looking at it. Adding weight has the same affect as lowering the modulus of elasticity of the carbon fiber that the rod is made of. So why pay more money for a blank that is constructed of high modulus carbon fiber and then add unnesessary weight that in affect does the same thing as reducing the blanks modulus.


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## ToddyTrout (Mar 15, 2005)

Harry, I guess you misunderstood my premise as it was probly not made scientifically enough. I agree that sensitivity and balance are 2 different subjects and also that balance changes with everything that you add to the rod, but I feel that if you start with a rod that is balanced, well you have to start somewhere, lol. As for adding weight to the butt, I'm sure that with all of your scientific smarts you are correct about losing sensitivity when adding weight, but I am talking about very small amounts of weight and that is for balance not sensitivity. With these rods we build now a days they are so sensitive that the average angler can't appreciate them anyways :tongue: .

Todd


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## Goags (May 28, 2004)

I primarily build trout/red baitcast rods for wading and have never put much faith or time into trying to "balance" the setup. My thinking has been that I may be throwing a 1/16 oz jighead or a 5/8 oz topwater. I try to use light components and the higher modulous blanks. I do sometimes get carried away w/ butt wraps, etc., but it comes down to a trade off w/ lighter vs. esthetics. I'm liking the split grips for my kind of fishing, whether they're cork, flocked foam, or eva. Just a personal preference at the moment. Jerry


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## Putter Parpart (Feb 10, 2007)

*Rod Balance*

*I believe rod balance comes into play in various types of fishing more so than others. Here's a story on it:*

*First, the type of fishing I predominantly do is vertical jigging for walleyes with a 3/8 oz. jighead and bait generally from 6' to 25' of water. The rod is held in hand all of the time and slowly worked up and down by the angler with the jighead being touched to bottom on each drop of the rod. *

*I tried balancing my personal rods for several years and those I made for others. It made little difference to me and to close friends of mine whom I made both balanced/unbalanced rods (for myself and them). Sooo, I kinda quit doing it. *

*My wife had been fishing with a spinning rod that I'd made for her for several years (unbalanced) and I'd notice her changing hands frequently while we were fishing because her wrist hurt. I just had always figured that this was due to her build/strength issues and nothing to do with anything else.*

*Recently, Doc Ski, Mark Blabaum, Stan Grace, Rich Gassman and myself made her a pair of rods. Rich made the handle (with a checker made by Mark in it) and it had his unique balancing system incorporated into it. The first full day my wife fished with this rod, I noticed that she wasn't switching hands while jigging with it. I asked her about it and she said her wrist doesn't hurt anymore while jigging with this 'balanced' rod. *

*Her old rod is 6' 0" long, her new rod is 6' 6". I would have thought the reverse would have been true? With the new, longer rod it would seem that she'd have MORE problems than before. *

*I'm starting to re-think the whole balancing issue once again; at least for lady anglers and persons of smaller builds - again, in certain types of fishing scenarios. *

*Sometimes I think I've got too much muscle between my ears and not enough... Well anyway, that's my present thoughts on this subject. I'm sure it'll change again in another few years though! LOL!!*


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## ToddyTrout (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Putter, good reply! I wade fish a lot down here on the Gulf coast and fish a lot with mirror lures, top waters and such. The balance issue isn't so much for casting as for when you are working the lure all day similar to what you were talking about with you and your wife jigging for walleye. And again I don't know much about physics, but I do know that I don't seem to get nearly as tired with a well balanced rod as I do with one that has to much weight on the tip or is to butt heavy, lol, that could describe me! I generally fish with a G-loomis IMX 8400 that I cut 6" off of the butt, it makes for a really light rod with lots of backbone when it's needed.


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## Steve Gardner (Mar 23, 2008)

Copied this from a post I placed last year on another site

"while adding weight to balance a rod may take away from its sensitivity, it adds to its bite detection.

Example; 
If your rod is tip heavy; its natural tendency is to pull down towards the water and fish. 
If a fish lightly picks up you bait just slightly moving off (which often happens while bass fishing in structure) you will not feel the bite as well because your rods tip is trying to go the direction of the fish anyway. The only thing stopping it are the restraints being put on it by your hand and wrist.

If you rod is tip light; its natural tendency is float up and away from the fish and water. 
Now, "If a fish lightly picks up you bait just slightly moving off" it stops dead the rods tendency to float up and revises the direction.

This action in itself increases your awareness that something is happening at the end of you line "Increased bit detection"

Also a rod that is tip light allows your hand to be in a more relaxed state while fishing allowing for increased sensitivity and comfort simple because you are not fighting the weight of the rods tip to keep it up out of the water"



Which has in your wife's case reduced strain and fatigue to the wrist enabling her to better concentrate on the fishing, and not the pain in her wrist which by allowing her to focus better on the fishing. Increases bite detection even more.


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## Goags (May 28, 2004)

How do you check the balance on a 7' baitcaster? I'm assuming w/ the reel on? Where is the balance point? I 'm asking because I'm interested, not to be contrary. Jerry


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## E. Harry (May 8, 2008)

Steve,
I will not argue whether or not adding weight to a rod is more comfortable for you or Putter's wife because that is subjective. However, I will argue that ANY weight that is added to the rod regardless of where you add it or what it does to the rods balance will reduce the rod's sensitivity. Sensitivity being determined by the portion of the energy, plus or minus, or movement if you prefer, at the end of the line that gets to the fisherman's hand.
Sensitivity will also be affected by the line, the angle that the rod is held and by all of the other properties of the rod other than it's weight but ANY added weight REDUCES sensitivity. 
I am not guessing. This is not only supported by the theory but I have measured it with transducers, strain gages, and an oscilloscope.


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## Steve Gardner (Mar 23, 2008)

I can't speak for any one else but I balance mine with the reel on, line on threaded through guides;

 What I do is to balance it so that the tip is neutral to minus (tip tends to float up) weight, when held in horizontal positions 3:00 or 9:00 O'clock depending on of you are right or left handed.



 That way I know that any angle above that automatically has the rod "tip light"

 Now the only rods I do this with are slack line technique rods were I tend to hold the tip up. (Worm, jig, Tube, dropshot, shaky head ECT.) 



When fishing tight line techniques (spinner baits, crank baits, buzz baits, top waters, jerk baits ECT.) I do not bother to balance these rods. Some reasons

1-I almost always fish these rods tip down so I tend to make them butt light so the tip floats down instead 

2- The lures on tight line techniques create so much drag that it negates the advantages of balancing the rod





Emory;

I do no balance a rod to increase sensitivity. (Although I have seen no proof that it decreases sensitivity in actual field use)

I balance a rod to increase bite detection and for comfort. 



To me making a rod more bite detectable, that also allows me to concentrate on the fishing because it is not causing undo fatigue, makes it more sensitive.



I have questions 

What have you "measured it with transducers, strain gages, and an oscilloscope"?

How fast it gets to your hand? 

Or 

How strongly your hand can feel the vibrations?

Or 

Which "fisherman's hand"?



If you have used yours or some else's hand then your test are as subjective a mine. 



If you used a machine of some type? All you have done is to prove a machine can feel the vibrations at one speed or another. And not how well or fast I or another person can.



It seems that your definition of sensitivity is what you can get your rod to do in lab, and mine is what I can get it to do on the water


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## E. Harry (May 8, 2008)

Steve,
I do not use anyone's hand. That would result in results that were subjective and anecdotal. The results would vary with different individuals and even at different times with the same individual. It would prove absolutely nothing. In order to make an objective, repeatable, quantifiable measurement, to the degree possible, all human senses have to be eliminated.
I drop a known small weight attached to the tip of the rod that introduces a known input to the rod. I install a strain gage at the point on the rod where the fisherman's hand would be and measure on an oscilloscope the peak output of the strain gage that results from this input to the tip of the rod. To make the measurement and include the affect of line I do the same thing but in this case I attach the known weight to the end of the line and drop the weight a known distance which again gives me a known input.
I have made these measurements with rods of different length, of different materials, different actions, different stiffnesses, different distributions of the mass and at varying angles. I get predictable, quanitative, repeatable results. I do not get someone's personal opinion, or some soft, subjective, anecdotal evidence.


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## Goags (May 28, 2004)

Emory, you're taking this to a level that I'm personally not comfortable with, but your certainly welcome to tell what you know. Someone help me out here...how do you hold a baitcast setup to ck balance? Is it done w/ 1 finger on the thread portion of the seat, w/ the reel swung down below? Or is it w/ the reel on top, balancing at the trigger finger? I'm just trying to get my mind around this. Jerry


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## OwenD (Mar 31, 2008)

I find Emory's experiments interesting and I applaud his determination to use repeatable science for his tests.
That said I doubt I'd put demonstrable sensitivity beore perceived sensitivity.
At some point we have to consider what the human senses are capable of perceiving and work within those constraints.
e.g. The fingers have far more nerve endings than are on most other parts of the body. If you're going to take it to the ends of scientific review, then the amount of nerve endings exposed to the stimulus from a given test may well have more effective results in perceived sensitivity than the ability of a blank to actually transmit those stimulii.
Will the next revolution in grip design feature a custom fitted glove type arrangement?

On the other hand, I feel the pursuit of ultimate "feel" is a bit of a wank.
Sure I like to "feel" when fish picks up a bait, but I won't set the hook until I have felt a significant amount of tension on the line (indicating the fish has the hook in its mouth and has started to move).
The latter tension can be felt pretty easily on all but a pool cue.


cheers,
Owen


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## Steve Gardner (Mar 23, 2008)

Jerry;

I balance depending on the type of rod.

On spinning rods, my preferred balance point is from front of reels leg to edge of grip (my grip) for personal use I set my reel 5.75 cm from front edge of grip. 

I hold the rod so reels leg is between my fourth and fifth fingers. This allows me to rest my thumb on top of blank and wrap my fore finger under the blank and puts the balance point perfect for me. When working with a client I determine were they hold the reel most of the time and balance it to them and their preferences.

On bait casters; I palm the reel, don't use foregrips at all, and rest my forefinger on the blank just in front of the seat. So my preferred balance point is at the front edge of the line guide or further back. 

Any time a rod balances further back then that, even with out weight, it just improves bite detection.

Ownen;
What type of fishin do you do?


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## E. Harry (May 8, 2008)

Goags, Owen D,
I agree with what you are suggesting if you are suggesting that what we are ultimately after is the maximum sensitivity in a rod. But to get there we have to know what the affect on sensitivity is of the different properties of the rod and also how the things that we do to the rod affect sensitivity. To know we must make measurements that are objective not subjective. The measurements must be repeatable and accurate as possible. Subjective measurements are neither accurate nor repeatable. They end up just being opinions.

Steve, 
What you are calling "bite detection" is what I would call sensitivity and it is not improved by adding weight. Once again, adding weight will decrease sensitivity regardless of where the weight is added and regardless of the affect that the added weight has on balance. A given added weight will have an increasing affect, reducing sensitivity, as it is added closer and closer to the tip of the rod. But it will always have a negative affect.


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## Billy 40 (Apr 3, 2008)

Does the Law of Diminishing Returns apply as weight is added closer to the butt?


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## E. Harry (May 8, 2008)

Billy,
Not exactly, it gets a little more complicated than that but if we simplify a little, if the rod is held at a low angle the sensitivity will decrease directly with how the added weight (mass) affects the total mass of the rod and reel and the other properties of the rod have very little affect. In other words, if you add 50% to the total mass the sensitivity will drop by roughly 50%. If you only add 5% to the total mass the sensitivity will only drop by roughly 5%. This is because the input energy comes straight up the line to the reel and the fisherman with very little of the energy being transferred to the rod. 
When the rod is held at a higher angle and most of the energy is transferred from the line to the rod and through the rod to the fisherman it gets more complicated and the other properties of the rod come into play but if we simplify a little more, the affect of added weight (mass) on sensitivity will increase roughly exponentially from the butt to the tip of the rod. The exponent will be determined by the distribution of the rods mass. In other words a small additional mass will have very little affect on sensitivity at the butt of the rod where most of the rods mass is but will have a very large affect at the tip of the rod where there is only a small portion of the rods total mass.
I hope I said that clearly and did not make it more confusing.


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