# Short barrel penetration tests



## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

After reading through this and seeing the examples, I am seriously rethinking my carry weapon.

My wife carries a S&W 637 and according to this, she would get better penetration than I would with my .40.

Perhaps I need to switch to a P228 in 9MM for carry....

Surprising results... love this site!

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot27.htm


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Great point. I have an interest in this in that I shoot a .40 XD sub compact. Speer actually makes a load specifically for short bbl guns in their great gold dot load. I guess it must use a powder which burns up quicker, so that it all burns before the bullet exits the bbl. don't know for sure. But the muzzle velocity on short bbls is definitely slower.

What we have to remember, however, is that a carry gun is usually not going to be a full sized 1911. We have to sacrifice performance for concealability and comfort. As they say "you're better off with a .25 auto that you have with you, than a full sized 1911 that you left at home."



THE "INTERESTED IN THIS SUBJECT" JAMMER


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## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

Agreed, but is was still very surprising to see the effect shorter barrels had on what are considered as baseline loads (Ranger SXT, Hydrashocks) in .40 and .45 out of short barrels... less penetration than 9MM or .38 Special with less than optimal expansion... that COULD have serious implications!

I will still carry my 220 as a car weapon but I am rethinking my carry now for sure. 

Great to see my wife's choice is outstanding as it is though....


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## Pocketfisherman (May 30, 2005)

There is ammo especially designed for shorter barrels in concealed carry that use very fast powders. I don't remember who makes it, but I've seen it on the shelf at Cabelas in various calibers. And penetration is not everything. Ideally you want the bullet to expand, leave the biggest wound channel possible, and not exit the perp at all to avoid harming innocent bystanders or property. Informative information, thanks for posting the link.


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## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

Yes, I understand penetration is not everything, but bullets designed to expand at higher velocities, being launched from shorter barrels resulting in lower velocities, do not perform as they do in a full size weapon. 

The photos clearly exhibited not only a lack of penetration but a lack of expansion at lower velocities resulting in less cavitation/smaller wound channels/less overall damage by standards that MANY of us rely on such as the Win Ranger SXT and the Fed. Hydra shock. Essentially, the hydrostatic shock is just not there without the velocity.

All I am saying is this website and their posted results make you think about more than JUST accuracy testing your ammunition. You need to know how it REALLY performs in YOUR weapon, not just what the manufacturer claims are. These guys perform the tests so you and I don't have to expend the time/money AND they do it in a completely objective manner. 

It's opened my eyes to many myths and facts. 

Small platform, 9MM seems to be one of the best, I would wager that .357 SIG is at least equal to it in performance. And nothing beats the old standards of .357/38 in a small wheelgun...

Good stuff to know!


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## Screeminreel (Jun 2, 2004)

In the years I have been handloading, I have conducted a LOT of test similar to those. Some of which appeared to not work out so well on the water actually did an awesome job in the field. Granted these were not on BGs, but on game. 

The best thing to remember is that when the companies design a bullet they consider the overall impact velocity range and skive the jacket and allow the cores to work around this. To use a bullet designed for an impact velocity of 800fps in something pushing it to 1250 is going to get less penetration and usually a lost core. Unfortunately a LOT of specialty loads use just such load. Yes demo's are impressive, and yes they will stop what your shooting at most of the time, but your actually looking for the best match of velocity and expansion combined. 

The Hydro-Shok's are designed for penetration and as such have a tougher jacket and core. They do their job very well, and sometimes do not open up in a mushroomed fashion. Gold Dots were designed for both and are more in line with caliber specific cores than just about anything on the market. This is why they perform so well in so many different test. The jacket is more plating than an actual copper jacket, therefore it holds together. With the wider HP nose they have and the alloy used for the core, they roll back to a certain point and then simply keep punching on through. I look at them like the Remington CL rifle bullets, no matter what you shoot them into or through they almost always look the same, mushroomed back to the bottom of the HP and retaining most of their weight. 

The bottom line is that in an conflict with a BG your only going to be at around 10yds max, so you want something that is accurate, and reliable above everything else. Yes the addition of expansion is nice, but if your putting holes where they belong, stuff will come to a halt in short order, no matter how big the bullet is. Similar to shooting a deer, folks get hung up on how much energy their bullets have. Well on paper having a load with over 1000ft/lbs of energy might look good, but an arrow with only 60# of KE will still drop a deer in around 4 seconds if you put it where it belongs.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Nothing surprising with those test. Water is not the best to do test with. And remember the velocity listed for 45 auto is with the 5 1/2 barrel not a 9 inch test barrel. Expansion, energy, velocity, all mean nothing its the same world wide. Shot placement. There is no such thing as knockdown power. It doesent happen unless its a spine or head shot. There was a test done years ago with a target made of the correct jell to simulate a human body. It was on wheels and a breath of air almost would move it. It was shot with everything from a 22 to a 44 mag. The only thing that moved the "body" was 00 buckshot.

Charlie


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## elpistolero45 (May 9, 2010)

CHARLIE said:


> Expansion, energy, velocity, all mean nothing its the same world wide. Shot placement. There is no such thing as knockdown power. It doesent happen unless its a spine or head shot.
> 
> Charlie


I really can't find fault with the above! You evidently do understand the realities as opposed to the myth/legend.

As an extra thought though, the pelvic girdle is an excellent target and a complete fight stopper. The abdominal aorta, femoral arteries and all that bone work are the Transmission -cooling system-fuel supply for the human engine.

Since most beginners tend to look over their sights and tilt the front sight up, I get them to drill on a target at 3 yards with 3 shots in the magazine or cylinder, and have them concentrate on getting all three shots off in a second and half or less and focusing on center mass.
90% of them put the first bullet in the belt buckle region and the other two are higher as muzzel rise causes these shots to kick up. I note as I write this, that the folks who mostly don't shoot well over sights tend to be much better point shooters.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

elpistelero45

Pelvis girdle may do the trick if its in the right place. Arteries wont do it. Well, not immediate takedown or disable shot. Sooner or later bleed to death but the bad guy could live to hurt you before they go away.

Charlie


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## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

I am just saying, bullet performance (While nearly never matching the manufacturer's claims) may not be as good in a short barrelled concealed weapon as it is in a full sized weapon. Those are important things ot know.

all factors come into play in a defense scenario and I want to KNOW that everything I am doing/carrying is the best possible. I want to remove as many negative or "X" factors as I possibly can. 

I full well realize that any well placed center of mass shot has the potential for a kill... I just want to up my chances to the very highest standards by ensuring all my gear tests out top notch. 

Is that too hard to understand, too much to ask?


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Seattleman1969

No sir not at all.. And I know you understand that short barrelled guns do not equal the velocity on longer guns. That is unless someone loads a fast burning powder that would work better.. Years ago well about the time the 357 magnum showed up the velocity advertised was with a 9 1/2 inch test barrel. most folks had either 4 1/2 or 6 inch guns and the velocity wasnt much better than a 38 special.. Nothing has changed regarding burning all the powder in the barrel or outside the barrel . Velocity is going to suffer.. with the powder burning outside. Also at night this creates a serious problem trying to see after firing your weapon once. All you see is a big blue spot for a while

Charlie


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## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

Yeah, big blue spots are bad... and end up necessitating a light source to counteract.... also bad.


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## magnumb (Apr 27, 2010)

The given here is that placement is key.......it always is. Next is picking something you will carry consistently due to it not being a burden to do so. Lots of arguments with merit as to carrying shorter vs longer barreled weapons. Most choose a weapon for their wives or girlfriends, or themselves in many instances, due to the size/weight of particular firearms. My wife is 100 lbs. soakin' wet, therefore a full sized 1911 is out of the question. Sure, she can shoot one, but as to concealability......not so much.....and IMHO......that is the deal maker or breaker.

Soooooo, we are left with many people choosing to carry, for their own reasons, a short barreled firearm, when longer barreled firearms are avaliable and have shown to be more "effective". But their's is a prudent choice in most instances, as it is a firearm that they will carry, each and everyday.

Where one lives or the time of the year and what cartridge one has chosen also plays a role in what bullet and weight one might choose to carry in their chosen firearm. Take for instance the .32 ACP. IMHO.......I would not choose a JHP under any circumstances if I were to choose the .32 for my CCW. It is a bare minimum cartridge to begin with for personal defense and has much less stellar ballistics than many of the more prudent self defense cartridges readily available today (in nice, high capacity, lightweight and concealable packages). The .32 JHP has little chance of penetrating enough clothing, much less clothing and skin, muscle and entrails to effect a one shot stop, likely many more in truth, would be needed. The mushroom effect that we would desire while employing a JHP, would be spent long before it could reach the area's it was intended to impact. The HP would fill with clothing and subsequent materials (if it actually went much further than thicker clothing) and likely allow the recipient to recover from the "attempt" and possibly further his/her assault or escape. Ball ammo will at least penetrate further and cause both more pain and bleeding, therefore somewhat more effectively terminating the assault.

Short barreled ammo, such as the very well constructed GD's, are a great idea. Muzzle flash is reduced due to proprietary powders and other combinations of components Speer devised. This is a big "+" when darkness is an element of the incident. BUT, if you look at the HP in both a standard (take for instance) .40 GD and compare it to their SBGD offerings, one can see that the actual HP of the SBHP is both a bit deeper and wider than the standard offering.....at least in the samples that I am holding and noticed when the SBHP first came out (LE - retired in '04). This very intentional design is useful due to the reduced FPS of short barreled firearms as compared to their standard length barreled counterparts. Speer figured on quicker expansion being that the SBHP offerings had a larger HP, thus somewhat mitigating the short barrel velocity "issue". Again, makes perfect sense.

UNTIL, that is, those SBHP's come up against the dreaded thick clothing issue once again. This is where the "where you live and time of the year" factors come in to play.......again, for me and IMHO. Typically warmer areas where people wear little clothing or living or visiting an area that happens to be warm/hot during the time of the year you're there. The SBHP makes alot of sense and is my chosen pill. However, when a resident or visiting an area which is experiencing colder temps which necessitate that one dress more warmly/thicker clothing, I opt to carry the standard GD with the smaller HP. But what about the "muzzle flash factor"......?

If I am confronted with a deadly situation and it must be as I already have deemed it so, that means that I have already confirmed that the attacker is not a friendly or family member. Not easy to do always, especially when in the dark or nearly so. My next move, not choice, is to place my shot appropriately (shot placement once again). I prefer to know that the first shot out of the barrel has the most chance to end the conflict. At an average of 7 ft., I seriously doubt that the perp will notice whether he's been hit by a Commander or an Officer's sized 1911. In colder weather situation, I believe that the standard GD's have a better chance of reaching those vital area's that I desire to hit. The reduced muzzle flash of the SBHP's , to me, won't be near as important or comforting to me IF I place that first shot where I intend with a standard GD.

I live in WA state (no apologizes necessary...:smile and it is cold many months out of the year and warm very few. My standard GD's and SBGD's have the same POI at 15 yds...............thankfully. For me, my choice is to wear for the weather and to carry what I'm most comfortable carrying. I know, I know.......a firearm is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable. 

I find that I can have both, even with G27's, Kimber Ultra Carry II's, 642's and other less than full sized firearms. 'Course, I've a few of them as well, but I've yet to feel under "barreled" with any of the aforementioned firearms.

Placement is key, but right behind that is what pill will individually choose to feed our firearms..........weather permitting....:wink:.

Stay safe...................


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Magnumb

Very good reading I think I like your post but what are you referring to when you speak of GD's. I always carried ball in the clips and a big old gas checked 185 Gr wadcutter for the chamber. 

Charlie


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Gold Dot. They have special designs for short barrel weapons. A design which attempts to address some of the velocity loss so as to provide performance like that of the traditional Gold Dot offerings.


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## magnumb (Apr 27, 2010)

Yes.......Gold Dot's. SBGD's = Short Barreled Gold Dot's.

Sorry for the confusion.....

Before there were all these different bullet designs and new materials, there was ball ammo and wadcutters. Definitely a place for new technology, both in hunting as well as in the arena of personal defense, but they all have their place.

I don't chase the latest and supposedly greatest new stuff out there, but I do think it's prudent to do your homework. As with clothing vs which bullet design to use, I also choose my hunting bullet along those same exact lines. I've killed many bulls (elk) as well as many bucks (blacktail and muley's) and I can tell you that the "clothing" on an elk barely resembles a deer's outerwear in terms of thickness and toughness. As is the case with making decisions about what bullet to carry dependent on the time of year, I also make these same determinations as it involves the game I'm currently pursuing.

I've got different rifles/calibers specifically dedicated to the game that I pursue. Makes sense that if I think a more potent cartridge like a 300WSM or 300RUM is a more appropriate pick for a particular elk hunt, over say a blacktail buck hunt, it would also make sense to choose the appropriate pill for the job. Sure, range and terrain all plays into such decisions, but I've killed bulls at arm's length when expecting the shot to be across the canyon at 300 - 400 yards. Picking the right bullet with the right qualities to take care of most situations I might find myself in, all starts with a bit of thought as to what the game is wearing and how deep one must go to deliver the goods.

2-leggeds deserve the same consideration, actually more so, as they have the propensity and abiilty to do the same if given the chance.

In these instances.....winning IS everything.


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## magnumb (Apr 27, 2010)

As an aside, but I believe relevent.................this past deer season I took a nice blacktail buck at 65 yds. with an open-sighted 4in. 629. The load = WW case, WW large/mag pistol primer, a full load of H110 and a 300gr. Beartooth WFNHCGC (wide, flat nosed, hard cast, gas checked) bullet. What....? A 300 gr. bullet of the hardest construction available used on a deer? Yep. 

WA state has the highest population of black bears (and a few grizz in a very small portion of the state as well) outside of Alaska. There are also more blackbear attacks than any other in the US and AK, in large part due to their #'s....obviously. I would load a 240gr. JHP for deer if there was no chance of running into a blackie as it would likely be a more effective load (in terms of wound channel/terminal results).

But as is the case with my reasons for using certain personal defense loads, I apply the same reasoning in my hunting loads. I carry my 629 always while afield. The worst case scenario, in these parts anyway, is to run afoul of an enraged blackie, be it for reasons related to her having cubs or for the simple "having a bad day" excuse. So I load for the most extreme case and/or most dangerous possibility, less carrying a rocket launcher or the like. For me, that is a bear attack.

Breaking down an attacking bear and short stopping it's progress towards me is much more important than opening up a wound channel or aiming for the lungs as is done with more traditional game. I don't want a blood trail nor less meat damaged. I'm unpleasant, not stupid. I want the attack/threat to end ASAP and to destroy the driving gears gets me that. This bullet moving at 1,200+ fps will break every bone it makes contact with and keep on goin'....with aplomb. That's exactly what I want and the reason why this is the only load that I designed for using in this particular handgun.

My buck definitely had .44 sized in and out penetration, nothing more. Large meplats don't get smaller in such instances. Even so, he face planted only 5 feet from impact. The 300gr. bullet is probably still travelin'. There is no such thing as over-penetration unless in a residential situation. Too much bullet for the job...not to my way of thinking. Would it have been enough to end a bear attack? Most certainly, especially if I did my job.

Our jobs, however, start long before such an event occurs.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Thanks Ernest and Magnumb

Very nice reading and I believe correct and to the point.. Whoever wins is the one with the biggest and best. Personal protection again with the 45 Auto mine was 185 Gr Wadcutter with gas check and 7.5 Gr of unique. Next seven were all ball..Just never wanted to worry about a malfunctioning gun at a time like that. We dont worry about attacking bears in this area maybe a few other things tho.Were kinda in the same boat as good ole Arizona..

Watch those bears


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## magnumb (Apr 27, 2010)

Not much ball won't stop out of a .45........:wink:.

Bigger is oftentimes better, but bigger and able to handle well trumps all else...........:smile:. That does vary considerably.

Lots more states than AZ are in it up to their necks. AZ is just the first to use a common sense approach....IMHO. Hopefully, many more will follow.................and soon.

Best to you CHARLIE.


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## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

So, here is my rather huge issue:

My wife carries an S&W Model 37 .38 special. This weapon specifically cannot handle ANY +P loads. There do not seem to be any high performing .38 special defense loads out there that are not +P or +P+.

Any suggestions?

I won't get rid of the Model 37, it was from a great uncle's estate. I might consider getting her a Ruger SP101 for carry instead, if I can't find a suitable load for the 37.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Seatlleman1969

I think regarding guns with shorter barrels and the velocity loss we may be making mountains out of mole hills. We may be worrying about things that really do not make too much difference.The 38 has been around for a long time. The bullet is heavy enough to penetrate to vital areas. If your wife is confortable with her present weapon and can shoot it well. I wouldnt change a thing. Its still all about shot placement..

Charlie


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## magnumb (Apr 27, 2010)

As I try to do as I preach......I bought four 642's at the same time a year or so back. S&W put out some 3,500 of their older frames without the internal lock.........not much in favor of locks in general (as with most things, S&W gave into the liability scare that is so prevalent these days).

I bought one for my wife, my son's girlfriend, a buddy of mine and one for myself. I changed out the springs and tuned them all up. Butter...............

The neat thing about the 642's (or the 442's - their blued cousin) is that they are lightweight, small, pack just enough punch and since they are the Centennial's, no exposed hammers or rear sight to snag on anything. To put them into use, just pull the trigger. All three recipients are not as experienced as I, but have shot enough before to know the basics, plus they are all leveled headed individuals. Their panic level and mine is likely more than a bit different, mainly due to no other reason than what was involved in my job. These 642's don't need a manual to use nor enough strength to rack a slide (much less, the speed that might be necessary to do so).

This small firearm delivers more punch than what many think that it could. It is the #1 selling S&W and has been for ever...with good reason (mentioned above). If an LE officer carries a BUG and it's not a 642/442, he is in the minority. I carry mine more often as the warmer weather sets in as I can wear it in my pants pocket or light coat pocket during the evenings. It isn't and wouldn't be my first choice in a CCW, but it also doesn't print as much as my other CCW's when only wearing a t-shirt. A bit of give and take.

Every gal that has handled and shot one of our 642's has immediately been very impressed. While most find the recoil quite present, they all said it was not over the top.

Give a 642/442 a look, your wife might follow suit. Both are +P guns as well. It is clearly marked on their 1 7/8 in. barrel (sweet...!).

BTW - my wife's gun carries the 125gr. GD's, but the 135gr. is no slouch either. The 125gr. however, recoils less.....if that is a concern.

Good luck......................


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

My wife hates the short barrels and the light weight frames. When offered a Sig 9 in compact or a full size Sig, she opted for the full size. Same when she had a wheel gun, she wanted the 4 inch barrel as opposed to the snub nose. Same when she was offered a PPK type weapon. 

And, when I say offered, this is ***** we already own, she had fired them all numerous times, and she was told, hey, take whatever you want. 

Of course, she carries a purse most of the time. As a result, the size/weight thing is kinda secondary.


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## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

Thanks for the suggestions.

My wife can't handle a full size or even compact semi-auto, the can't rack the slides or even operate most of the controls on any of the SIGs I own (226R40SCT, 220 SAO, 228). She is a truly tiny woman, 4'9" about 85 Lbs..... the epitome of a petite Filipina. Wheelguns are going to be her thing, she loves the 37, I suspect the SP101 will be just as pleasurable to shoot for her.

I understand it's (.38 Special) been around a long time. There are simply not a lot of options for regular power ammunition in them anymore, it's all +P or +P+ it seems other than LRNs or SWCs.

On a side note, has anyone shot/tested the Hornady Critical Defense loads? The ones with a JHP that has the cavity filled with a soft rubber like material to keep clothing from clogging the point and hampering expansion? How about the expanding FMJs from Federal?

I just found that Federal DOES make a 110Gr Hydrashock for .38 Special in a "regular" power load. No one carries them in Austin that iIve found. Probably going to have to order and test. 

Shooting is fun!


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## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

Hornady also makes a 110Gr. Critical defense FTX bullet/round in a standard load for .38 Special.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Well then with the 110 gr bullet we are getting back to the lighter bullet short barrel and therefore less penetration.. 148 gr 38 spcl and go with it.

Charlie


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## Screeminreel (Jun 2, 2004)

> Were kinda in the same boat as good ole Arizona..


Lord ain't that the truth. I bet the INS bus could make a LOT more fishing area along the Dike if they would just show up down there about once a month.


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## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

thanks screemin, and charlie, you guys are my first official thread hijack, never been hijacked before...


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## KIKO (Oct 24, 2006)

I been shopping for a gun, but as a physically challanged induvidual that is loosing strengh in my body due to muscular distrophy my Colt Gold Cup .45 was getting harder on me. Most pistols were either too hard to pull the slide back or the trigger was hard.

This weekend I found a perfect match for me, for someone with arthritis, for a lady or for someone in general that wants to be able to handle the gun with one hand. What I found is a Walther PK380. The gun is 380; 8+1, it is slim, not too small, easy to slide back and the trigger is about 4lbs. 
All the reviews on this gun are very good. The average price around Houston was $369.00 Gander has it on special for $329.00
http://www.waltherpk380.com/


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Seattleman1969

Sorry about that guess I just never thought. My bad

Charlie


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## ralph7 (Apr 28, 2009)

just because a gun is not rated for plus p's doesn't mean it is going to blow up when shooting them.
they will simply loosen up a well made gun like the smith and wesson if you shoot many hundreds of rounds through it.
i would have the wife practise w/the same weight bullet in a standard load and put plus p's from a reputable company in the gun for protection.


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## bayou vista (Jun 28, 2008)

i dont know about "YOUR" short barrels but my "LONG BARREL" penetration test is amazing


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