# Best gauge for dove and quail??



## Conti (Jun 30, 2005)

Opinions please.


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## dbarham (Aug 13, 2005)

20


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## scwine (Sep 7, 2006)

I have always used a 12,,,,,but I am leaning towards a 20.


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## redfish bayrat (Feb 17, 2006)

*best gun*

I shoot a 20 95% of the time, but love an old 16 I inherited. Just wish shells for it were easier to find.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

20 gauge for ducks and geese too... 

Doves are not that hard to kill....no reason to carry a heavier gun or have more recoil (some will argue recoil but physics has no opinion or imagination).

for quail you need a lighter faster pointing shotgun to acquire the target quickly!


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

28ga

Both are small birds. Anything more is overkill and like stated above, baby frame guns point and shoulder easy allowing you to get on target faster.

I know nobody who would hunt quail with anything bigger than a 20ga.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Been shootin a 20 for years.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

It has been said that the 28 gauge shell is the most efficient there is. Diameter of the shell, length of the shell, etc. gives the most efficient shot string- not too long, not too short, etc. Many people today shoot one oz loads in their 12 ga, so moving to a 20 ga you only lose 1/8 oz of shot, and then moving to a 28 ga, you only lose another 1/8 oz. I have found it is the quality of the pattern that is more important than the number of shot in the pattern. If you have hundreds of BB's, but they are irregularly placed in the shot string, "hole city."

But if you really want to strap on some hair, pull out your 410 like I do. Everyone says 410, you can't kill a dove with a 410. First of all a number 7 1/2 shot leaving the bbl at 1200 fps has no idea whether it is coming from a 12 ga or a 410- it's just the number of shot that is different. Each pellet has the same energy. Plus, actually a "long" 410 shell has the same amount of shot as a 28 ga- 3/4 oz.

I most often start off with my 410, and if I'm hitting them, I stay with it all day. Way too much fun. If the birds are flying high, or are very wary, or I'm missing (common), I usually pull out the SBS 20 beretta. 

Love my dove hunting.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

I've gone through the 12 and the 20: started using a 28 and now it's pretty hard to peel me away from using it for those birds.. Head and shoulders above the rest once the whole "package" of recoil, efficiency, etc. is considered as a whole.


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## yakPIRATE (Jun 23, 2012)

I've been using my 28g OU or my 20g SXS. I haven't shot my 12g OU in awhile.


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## Conti (Jun 30, 2005)

Thanks for all the response. Very helpful


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## poco jim (Jun 28, 2010)

X2 on the 16g


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## AR (May 17, 2013)

.410 and 28 ga.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

12


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

10. Wait for the flock to land in a tree and blow up the whole thing.


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## Bazooka (Dec 10, 2011)

I learned to shoot with a Fox 20 Gauge Double and used it until I bought myself a Remington 1100 when I was a senior in high school. I normally use it for all my shotgun hunting, but I acquired a Franchi 20 Gauge Semi Auto a few years back and it's become my go to gun for doves and quail.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

You can shoot 1 oz in a 12 ga or 7/8 oz in a 20. Not much difference. For dove I prefer the 20 when I am "competing" which is way too often in the crowd I run with. LOL. Hard to argue with more lead down range.

But I really like the O/U 28 and 410 that Beretta makes. If it is a "less sporting" crowd I am with, I typically shoot one of these.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

poco jim said:


> X2 on the 16g


X3

I hunt everything from deer to dove with one.
Carry like a 20 hit like a 12.


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## artys_only (Mar 29, 2005)

I have shot my 12 , also a 20 looking for a 28 gage auto , less is more the older I get .


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

artys only

It aint fair shootin a 12. You jus caint miss.


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## peckerwood (Jun 9, 2012)

The best guage and gun is the one you practice with.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Some of yall are confused re shot weight in 20 vs 12. You can get 1 oz shot in remington heavy dove ammo. Thats what I shoot. Winchester is 7/8 oz in 20 Ga and I think I can tell the difference between remington and winchester 20 Ga. 1 oz seems to be better.


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## MrG (Apr 10, 2005)

I inherited my grandmother's '50's vintage Browning A5 'Sweet Sixteen' and a half a case of paper hulled shells. When I first got it I took it out to just put a few through it and promptly went 8 for 10. It is a dove slaying machine. It now resides in the safe patiently waiting on my granddaughter to grow a little.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

20 gauge was designed for 7/8 ounce 16 gauge one ounce
and so on. Putting more lead out a smaller pipe doesn't relate to
better patterns and farther killing pattern.


A shotgun is all about pattern a lot of time the heavy loads in 
the smaller gauges result in very poor patterns.
You are trying to put ten pounds of **** out a five pound hole.

Secondly heavy loads usually are slower fps 
Shotgun barrels are generally rated for 12,500 psi exception being the 410.
Heavier loads have to have slower burning powder to keep the heavier load in
acceptable pressure range.

With the shotgun especially in the smaller bores less is more.


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## larrymac1 (Dec 8, 2011)

*Gauge*

Which ever one you shoot the best. I use a 20 and like the feel of it.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jack's pocket

You gotta check your specs. Lil off in places. Also my 20 shoots the 1oz nr 8 load far better pattern than the 7/8 oz. Yes I tested it. Also velocity is good think (caint remember for sure) but about 1200 fps maybe lil faster. Well claimed on the box. Havent checked in a while but think most hi brass 20 guage stuff is 1 oz or maybe lil more. Speaking of 2 3/4 shells. Now some of the 3 inch 20 guage stuff has 1 1/4 oz load.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I haven't shot a 12 gauge in a long time; the 20 gauge is just more fun to shoot for me.

Jack's Pocket I load my 20 gauge shells with 1 ounce of 7.5's to Winchester AA spec's. They pattern very well out of all of my shotguns.

TH


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

CHARLIE said:


> Jack's pocket
> 
> You gotta check your specs. Lil off in places. Also my 20 shoots the 1oz nr 8 load far better pattern than the 7/8 oz. Yes I tested it. Also velocity is good think (caint remember for sure) but about 1200 fps maybe lil faster. Well claimed on the box. Havent checked in a while but think most hi brass 20 guage stuff is 1 oz or maybe lil more. Speaking of 2 3/4 shells. Now some of the 3 inch 20 guage stuff has 1 1/4 oz load.


Charlie my specs are right on in what a 20 gauge was designed for and that was a 7/8 ounce load. Yes you can buy a 12 gauge designed load in the shell of an 1 1/4 ounce for a 20. That doesn't make the 20 a 12 or will it shoot and pattern like one.
Again I stand by my statement. 99% of the modern loads today are to catch the game of the hunter not the hunted. 
No matter how much lead you put in a shell you have not changed the bore diameter on that 20 gauge from .685. If shot load is increased pressure has to be decreased with lighter powder loads or slower burning powders. Now we are in simple physics on how much you can cram out that hole with out shot deformation and blown patterns. At a point you go from a pattern to a string of shot, at this point you have just defeated the purpose of the shotgun.
I have played the competition shooting and reloading game along time.
A shotgun shell is a system vastly different from a rifle . Changing the wad or
shell can increase or decrease pressures drastically. This doesn't make it a better load.
No two shotguns will pattern the same. Every one has a sweet load that is more effective with. Shotgun is about patterns that has been from day one.
Shotguns are designed to be patterned at 40 yards and it about three things only.
Pattern percentages depending on choke.
Pattern density
Point of Impact (POI) -- actually the center of the pattern.

Charlie not trying to pick a fight or argument.
Shotguns are my passion, I watch so many of the younger hunters buy in to the bigger is better, then are disappointed in their hunt. Many of the shells on the shelf today were only designed to sell. I was also only referring to lead loads as steel and IXT is a whole nuther ball of wax.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

For everyone- not directed at any one individual-- if you have never taken your gun into the field and actually shot a pattern at 30 or 40 yards at a piece of butcher paper to actually see how your gun actually patterns a certain load, your comments about pattern really have no value. You are just regurgitating stuff you have read. Kind of like Howard Dean commenting negatively about "American Sniper" without having actually seeing it.

When I repped for remington back in the 90's, I was based in Reno, NV., single, with nothing better to do for about 6 months than sell guns, hunt chukkar and quail and pattern shotguns. Can't tell you how many pieces of paper with 30" circles I had. I actually took them home, and circled every single hole with a magic marker to really make the patterns stick out. Amazing results:

As stated above:
1. sometimes high velocity loads, literally shoot the middle out of a pattern.
2. Magnum loads- mean more shot, and most likely slower velocity
3. Every gun patterns differently
4. There are even differences between an IC choke by different manufacturers.
5. The type of shot you use (chilled or magnum) has a dramatic impact on patterns
6. The type of wad you use has a dramatic impact on patterns.
7. High brass and low brass means nothing today.
8. Then the real BANGER: Regardless of how great the coverage on a piece of paper is, you don't know WHEN THE PELLETS GOT THERE. Did they all get there at once (obviously not)- how long is your shot string. Remember, a bird flying through a shot string is three dimensional- kinda like 3d chess. If you ever have a chance to observe an ultra slow motion video of a shot string from the side, do it. It is amazing. I believe it was the legend Bob Brister who put a target on a mover ( I think it was towed by his wife in her car) and shot at it showing the lateral dispersal of the shot string. Very eye opening.

I have a brother in law who is an oral surgeon- makes a ton of money- $5000 shotguns, pheasant trips to the Dakotas, etc. For years he used dove and quail shells. That's like buying a $1500 bow, and shooting bamboo arrows with peacock feathers. Doesn't work.

It is a real science with lots of variables, but not that different from centerfire variables: type/brand of primer; powder brand; powder weight; bullet brand/type; turn necks or not; neck size or full length; sb dies for semi's or regular; seating depth; let's see what else- oh yeah BS and black magic.

Love it all, and the endless number of combinations is what keeps us all continually searching for that load that is "just a little bit better."

Great info on this thread- keep it coming.

THE JAMMER


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## el dorado (Jul 26, 2010)

I've got a Winchester 12 ga pump (1100 maybe?) that I got when I was about 16 from a pawn shop. Dove ducks Geese rabbits doesn't matter. I shoot the dove with the shells with the Texas flag on the box from Academy at about $4-$5 a box. I switch to 3" steel for the flying liver.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

A little history.

Introduction to Shotgun Gauges & Shells

By Chuck Hawks


Shotgun gauges are determined by the number of lead balls of a given diameter required to make one pound of that size ball. Thus 10 balls of 10 gauge diameter are required to make one pound of such balls, or 20 balls of 20 gauge diameter are required to make one pound, and so forth. This is the traditional, and very old, system. The actual (nominal) bore diameters of the various gauges are as follows: 10 gauge = .775 inch, 12 gauge = .729 inch, 16 gauge = .662 inch, 20 gauge = .615 inch, 28 gauge = .550 inch. The .410 is named for its nominal bore size, and is not a gauge at all.

The last couple decades of the 19th Century were a time of great change in the shotgun world, in terms of both guns and shells. Guns went from twist barrels to fluid steel, choke boring had appeared in the late 1870's, and external hammer double guns became hammerless. Self contained shot shells went from brass hulls to paper hulls. In 1880 the 10 gauge rivaled the 12 gauge as an all-around gauge, and the 8 gauge was fairly popular for waterfowl hunting. The 16 gauge was the specialized upland gauge, and the 20 was regarded as something of a curiosity. 10 gauge shells were loaded with 1 1/4 ounces of shot, and 12 gauge shells with 1 ounce.

As time passed and the 19th Century became the 20th Century, both guns and shot shells became more efficient, and the smaller gauges made great inroads on the popularity of the large gauges. By the 1890's the 12 gauge had begun to replace the 10 gauge as the all-around gauge, and by 1900 the 12 gauge was firmly in first place.

By the 1920's, new progressive burning powders allowed heavier shot payloads, and all of the shotgun gauges took a step up in effectiveness. The 12 gauge was first in sales and the smaller 16 and 20 gauges were gaining in popularity and had passed the 10 gauge. 12 gauge shells were encroaching on the 10 gauge shell's payload, just as the 16 and 20 gauges were encroaching on the 12 gauge's traditional payload. The use of the 8 gauge, even for waterfowl hunting, had declined to the point that when it was banned for such use by the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 practically no one cared. Eight gauge guns were simply too heavy and clumsy to be practical.

By the 1950's, according to Jack O'Connor in his The Shotgun Book, the 12 gauge had about 50% of the market. The 16 gauge had about 25%, with the 20 gauge gaining in popularity and up to 17%. The little .410 bore accounted for about 4% of sales, and the 10 gauge and 28 gauge each had about 2% of the market.

In the 1960's plastic shells began replacing the traditional paper hulls, and first shot protectors, then one piece wads, were incorporated into shotgun shells. These advances provided better patterns across the board by reducing the amount of shot deformed on its trip down the barrel. The smaller gauges, especially the 20 gauge, particularly benefited from the improved efficiency and continued to climb in popularity.

By the 1970's, again according to Jack O'Connor, the sales of 12 gauge guns and shells had declined somewhat to less than 50% of the market. The 20 gauge had taken over second place with about 20% of the market, and was still increasing its market share. The 20 had become the favored upland gauge, and the 20 gauge 3" magnum load with 1 1/4 ounce of shot (the same as the traditional 12 gauge "duck and pheasant" load) had become popular for waterfowl. The 16 was in third place, with something less than 20% of the market, and fading. The .410 was up to 10% and the 28 and 10 gauges brought up the rear, with the 10 still slipping.

The 12 gauge was the top all-around and waterfowl gauge, and its 3" Magnum load with 1 7/8 ounces of shot almost gave it the performance of the nearly obsolete 10 gauge, which was up to a full 2 ounces of shot in a 3 1/2" magnum shell. The 2 3/4" 16 gauge magnum shell handled 1 1/8 ounce of shot, as did the 2 3/4" 20 gauge magnum shell. A full 1 ounce of shot was being stuffed into little 2 3/4" 28 gauge shell, and the 3" .410 shell carried 3/4 ounce of shot.

Then the US government stepped in with their toxic shot legislation. Lead, of course, is not toxic unless somehow introduced into the system, but facts are not important to the anti-gun do-gooders in government, and there was some evidence (from seriously flawed studies) that waterfowl were picking up expended shot from the bottom of shallow ponds and suffering lead poisoning. Thus the government mandated inefficient steel (or other non-lead) shot for waterfowl hunting, and pretty much put the blocks to the 20 as an all-around (upland and waterfowl) gauge. Even the big 3" magnum 12 gauge load could carry only 1 1/8 ounces of the new shot, and became a marginal killer on high flying ducks and geese. This gave the 10 gauge, whose fat 3 1/2" magnum shell could carry 1 3/8 ounces of steel shot, a new lease on life.

Subsequently, to bolster the 12 gauge's capability as a waterfowl gun, the 3 1/2" shell was introduced, which carries 1 3/8 ounces of steel shot. The 3 1/2" 10 gauge magnum shell now carries up to 1 3/4 ounces of steel shot. The 3" 20 gauge shell carries up to 1 ounce of steel shot.

Modern field and target loads for the various shells are generally loaded with lead shot as follows. The field load for the 10 gauge, which used to be loaded in a 2 7/8" shell, has been discontinued, although a 3 1/2" shell containing 2 ounces of shot is still offered as a turkey load. The standard 12 gauge field and target load is a 2 3/4" shell loaded with 1 1/8 ounces of shot. The dying 16 gauge is still offered in a 2 3/4" shell with 1 ounce of shot. The 20 gauge field and target load is a 2 3/4" shell with 7/8 ounce of shot. The 28 gauge target and field load is a 2 3/4" shell with 3/4 ounce of shot. The little .410 is available with a 1/2 ounce target and field load in a 2 1/2" shell or an 11/16 ounce field load in a 3" shell.

The latest trends in waterfowl shells seems to be the use of non-toxic shot made from denser (and therefore ballistically superior to steel) materials. Tungsten-nickel-iron is one such alloy from Remington, and Federal offers tungsten-iron. Steel shot is hard on thin wall barrels (such as are used in most double guns), so non-toxic shot that is safe for such barrels has been developed. Tungsten-polymer shot has been developed by Federal to solve this problem, and the Bismuth Cartridge Company offers shells loaded with bismuth shot. Non-toxic shot shells are also being produced for target and even upland game hunting, although there is no rational reason for this.

The following series of articles examines each of the surviving shotgun gauges in greater detail. A little bit of history and a lot more information about specific loads and their applications are included in those articles.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Nice read Jack and lots of info. Can speak only for my gun 20 Ga 11-87 Remington modified choke with heavy dove load 1 oz# 8 shot and I think plenty velocity 1275 fps that patterns fine with that load. With the Winchester 7/8 oz (can only speak for winchester since only other shell I have shot) The pattern sucks with lots of holes in it. As above I suppose every gun is different and folks shuld really take their gun and check it. Ya really think that going from a 2 3/4 12 gage to say a 3 or 3 1/2 with more shot is a backwards step Since they are all the same bore size ? How about different chokes since that ultimately is the "end up" diameter of barrell. 

Not trying to argue with anyone I think this is a great informative thread. 

As usual Jammer always provides us with good accurate info too.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

CHARLIE said:


> Nice read Jack and lots of info. Can speak only for my gun 20 Ga 11-87 Remington modified choke with heavy dove load 1 oz# 8 shot and I think plenty velocity 1275 fps that patterns fine with that load. With the Winchester 7/8 oz (can only speak for winchester since only other shell I have shot) The pattern sucks with lots of holes in it. As above I suppose every gun is different and folks shuld really take their gun and check it. Ya really think that going from a 2 3/4 12 gage to say a 3 or 3 1/2 with more shot is a backwards step Since they are all the same bore size ? How about different chokes since that ultimately is the "end up" diameter of barrell.
> 
> Not trying to argue with anyone I think this is a great informative thread.
> 
> As usual Jammer always provides us with good accurate info too.


Charlie
In the shotgun world it is all about pattern.
You just have to pattern your gun, Jammer referred to different chokes as well.
I prefer Browning pumps and have bought chokes made by "Browning" in the same constriction and one patterned beautiful and the other sucked. I am sure they contract out somebody else to build them. I have taken the choke gauge to both and they are not the same. They are both marked modified and one is actually improved modified or light
full by the gauge. That is one of the reasons today the only choke you will find in my 
guns are Trulock. 
Pay attention to magnum loads when buying them as most are much slower in FPS
to get something in a shotgun shell you have to give up something.
Again this goes back to what Jammer said about shot string.
Now this is no way scientific, I have taken standard loads and magnum and shot a piece of tin at 40 yards. With the standard load you heard one splat hit the tin,
With the magnum load I have heard longer splat hit the tin. If the shot string is long enough to hear the difference I have often wondered how long that string was.
That would be the most ineffective load I could put in my scattergun. 
I have found through the years Browning and Winchester factory chokes to be tighter constricted as a rule of thumb than Remington.
My Remington 870 16 gauge is marked full on the choke gauge it is modified, the Browning is extra full. Only the Winchester agrees with the gauge. 
I wondered if I had gotten a miss marked barrel all the other Remingtons I have checked 
are closer to modified in 16 gauge. 
Also in the smaller the gauge 20,16 etc I have noticed as shot diameter increases
has a much bigger impact on pattern. I have never been able to get a 16 gauge to pattern #2 well and work beautiful with #4's.

Charlie this is another really good read as everything today is based off 
the black powder shotgun shell.
This was where the experimentation with chokes rally started happening
with the introduction of the shell from the muzzle loader as most were cylinder
for ease of loading.
http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Charlie
I am by no means an expert and don't claim to be.
I found out a few simple rules pattern my shotgun to get the best pattern
with X choke. To shoot consistent standard loads at the same fps in all my loads from buckshot to #8's. When I learned this my success rate in the field and competition steadily improved.
I shot trap for years with a Model 97 and routinely busted 97 to 98
out of 100 on the trap range.


Find a shotgun that fits you that is why there are 5 BPS and 2 Model 97's in the safe among a host of Model 12's. There is also a Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade,the only 20 gauge I own. I know I haven't shot it in ten years, just prefer one of my 16's.
Never got into reloading the 20. Out of the many shotguns here 99 times out of 100 only one of two will get pulled from the safe. I have perfected loads
to those two guns and had them tested at BPI. I have complete confidence with them in the field that makes a world of difference in my little OCD brain.

Again I like a pump shotgun or a SxS the Remington 870 Wingmaster is one of the finest designs every invented and I can't shoot one worth ****.
That is why there is only one in the safe.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jack

Thanks for your information and reply. I had a 16 Ga Model 97 until a house fire took all my guns. Only being a hunter and not competion I can only speak to my results. Did shoot competetion for many years with pistol but no shotguns. LOL. Always shot autos (well early H&R 410) and then side by side Fox 20 then Remington 11-48 in 16 ga then Smith 1000, then Smith 1000A in 12 guage and finally Remington 1100 in 12 and 1100 in 20 which I have settled on for dove.

Re pump shotguns I always say to my buddies I never liked a gun you had to "crank" to make it shoot. Same thoughts regarding pistols. The days of having to "do something " to the pistol to get to the next round went away with Sam Bass and Jessie James. LOL Good shootin.


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## RedXCross (Aug 7, 2005)

Wow, Ok I shoot a 28 guage A-400 In 28" with a Mod choke I shoot Fiochi's 7.5 shot and it knocks the dove and Quail's Dingis in the dirt. JMO


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## Bob Keyes (Mar 16, 2011)

12 for me 2 reasons, my old Mossberg 500 was measured by a Holland and Holland stock fitter about 30 years ago. His comment "Sir, don't ever change anything on this firearm, it is perfect. He was right, I have tried to go to a O/U and an auto but came back to the 500. I reload so I shoot a 1 1/4 oz. hi velocity load either 6s or 9s my barrel hates 7.5s and 8s but the 6s or 9s are even top to bottom edge to edge. Why muck about with success? OBTW I have no idea how it does with steel, I don't eat ducks and geese so I don't shoot at them.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

If I could only use 1 for everything and ammo availability wasn't an issue . Gimme a 16 gauge. That's not reality so, gimme a 12 because I don't practice enough to enjoy the 20


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## BMowatt (Jun 3, 2014)

20 ga


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Stumpgrinder said:


> If I could only use 1 for everything and ammo availability wasn't an issue . Gimme a 16 gauge. That's not reality so, gimme a 12 because I don't practice enough to enjoy the 20


Sixteen is actually pretty easy to come by.
Ables and some others always has good selection and good prices
no more than 20 or 12 by the case for the good stuff.
Over the counter is a different issue. One of the reason's I went to
reloading was over the counter price and availability in box stores.
With the internet and UPS I don't reload near as much as I used to.


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