# Scary deer???



## wacker (Mar 22, 2006)

OK, I am scared to go to the stand in the dark now.


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## asolde (May 22, 2004)

Let him grow see what he turns into.


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## MarshJr. (Jul 29, 2005)

yea its definatly creepy when they are staring into the camera, like they know your watching

i have one like that but my deer looks less evil


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## JJGold1 (May 6, 2010)

In the 2nd pic he almost looks malnourished.


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## wacker (Mar 22, 2006)

asolde said:


> Let him grow see what he turns into.


LOL, That deer is about 15yr old!!!

He is one of those RS mutant deer,Been at the same stand for the 3yrs I have been there. Nobody will waste a tag on him.

This is what happens when you have no predators.


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## bearwrestler (Nov 16, 2010)

That deer is a perfect example of why antler restrictions want will not work. By law where restrictions are imposed this will stay in the gene pool until he dies of natural causes.


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## agteacher (Jun 29, 2005)

Mine just make faces!!


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> That deer is a perfect example of why antler restrictions want will not work.


 FAIL

The antler restrictions do work; a few deer that won't make the cut doesn't ruin the entire plan.

TH


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## Clint Leopold (Mar 7, 2006)

Trouthunter said:


> FAIL
> 
> The antler restrictions do work; a few deer that won't make the cut doesn't ruin the entire plan.
> 
> TH


Very true! I can promise you it's working where I hunt. We will never be able to implement a program that is 100% effective......but as a result I would rather have a few deer like this beat the system than have every 2.5 y/o deer bite the dust! It's kinda nice being able to pass on a young deer and not hear it get shot a few minutes later.


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## Reel_Blessed II (Jun 24, 2004)

Looks like alien fingers on top of his head.


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## Miles2Fish (Dec 2, 2008)

MarshJr. said:


> yea its definatly creepy when they are staring into the camera, like they know your watching
> 
> i have one like that but my deer looks less evil


Less evil maybe....More TASTY definitley!


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## C'est Bon (Oct 19, 2009)

Clint Leopold said:


> Very true! I can promise you it's working where I hunt. We will never be able to implement a program that is 100% effective......but as a result I would rather have a few deer like this beat the system than have every 2.5 y/o deer bite the dust! It's kinda nice being able to pass on a young deer and not hear it get shot a few minutes later.


So, instead we have inferior deer passing on their inferior genes, creating more inferior deer...


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## Texas Jeweler (Nov 6, 2007)

bearwrestler said:


> That deer is a perfect example of why antler restrictions want will not work. By law where restrictions are imposed this will stay in the gene pool until he dies of natural causes.


_____________________________________________________________

What doe is going to let him get a shot at breeding?


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## Clint Leopold (Mar 7, 2006)

C'est Bon said:


> So, instead we have inferior deer passing on their inferior genes, creating more inferior deer...


Like I said, there is no way of implementing a program that is 100% flawless. The program has made dramatic improvements where I hunt....can't speak for where you hunt!


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## BATWING (May 9, 2008)

Most definitely the genes for horns that grow up instead of out will be dominate.


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## wacker (Mar 22, 2006)

Antler restrictions here at the house don't work at all, These deer are shot and put in the freezer without ever leaving the property and there have been zero improvemnts in the heard, In fact if anything it has made it worst cuz now they can shoot a 1.5yr old 3 pointer. So in this location we have actually lost deer with the new restrictions.


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## SeaTex (Aug 27, 2009)

I'm in one of the orginal counties to implement resgtrictions and I can tell you they do work. As far as the buck or bucks in question the older larger rack bucks dominate them for the does in heat. Youth weekend my 16 y.o. son and I watched a 5-1/2 to 6-1/2 y.o. 10 point tend a doe while chasing off a smaller buck. This past weekend I watched a 3-1/2 y.o. 8 pointer fight and chase off a spike while he tended a doe. When they left my feeder the doe went about 200 yards and came out from behind my pond dam. That's when a large 10 pointer took the doe from the young 8 pointer. 

IMHO by the time a doe peaks in her cycle a mature buck will have dominated the inferior bucks for the right to breed. Of course your Buck/Doe ratio has to be right.

Before restrictions I never saw rut activity in my county. Now hunting is much more enjoyable for my sons and I. This year is the 8th season we have been under restrictions and I'm now seeing bucks 5-1/2 years old and older regularly.


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## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

SeaTex said:


> I'm in one of the orginal counties to implement resgtrictions and I can tell you they do work. As far as the buck or bucks in question the older larger rack bucks dominate them for the does in heat. Youth weekend my 16 y.o. son and I watched a 5-1/2 to 6-1/2 y.o. 10 point tend a doe while chasing off a smaller buck. This past weekend I watched a 3-1/2 y.o. 8 pointer fight and chase off a spike while he tended a doe. When they left my feeder the doe went about 200 yards and came out from behind my pond dam. That's when a large 10 pointer took the doe from the young 8 pointer.
> 
> IMHO by the time a doe peaks in her cycle a mature buck will have dominated the inferior bucks for the right to breed. Of course your Buck/Doe ratio has to be right.
> 
> Before restrictions I never saw rut activity in my county. Now hunting is much more enjoyable for my sons and I. This year is the 8th season we have been under restrictions and I'm now seeing bucks 5-1/2 years old and older regularly.


 I agree, just ask most anyone who has hunted the same places before and at least 2 or 3 years after the restrictions are in place and by far the majority of these people will tell you it has made a huge difference in the quality of the bucks age and rack size in the herd. No one system is foolproof and there are exceptions to the rule, we have a mature buck on our place that is about 4.5 and has a 12 inch spread now but I have never saw a mature deer with less than a 13 inch spread before this one we have now in my life unless it was a freaky rack deer. The system works if you are patient.


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## aggiemulletboy (May 31, 2006)

Texas Jeweler said:


> _____________________________________________________________
> 
> What doe is going to let him get a shot at breeding?


While the big bucks are sparring, that one will sneak in the back door and get him some.


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

ugly deer need love too.even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes.rules aint perfect but we must fallow them.


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Ugly deer, he should have been taken out a long time ago. 


The full failure of the antler restrictions will be clear in a couple of deer generations when ugly deer like the one in the pic are the norm running around knocking up does. Not counting the people like my wife who choose to stop hunting instead of taking a chance of breaking the law. Horrible law.


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## Clint Leopold (Mar 7, 2006)

Jolly Roger said:


> Ugly deer, he should have been taken out a long time ago.
> 
> The full failure of the antler restrictions will be clear in a couple of deer generations when ugly deer like the one in the pic are the norm running around knocking up does. Not counting the people like my wife who choose to stop hunting instead of taking a chance of breaking the law. Horrible law.


Before the antler restrictions deer like this WERE the norm. It was almost impossible to see a deer that would go over 13". It's sad that your wife stopped hunting because of this law. People make this law a lot more complicated than it really is. There's a ruler under every deers horns....called the ears. If it's too close to call, don't shoot. If it's legal there should be no doubt. My wife enjoys being able to shoot a mature deer instead of only having opportunities at deer like the one in this post.


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## Clint Leopold (Mar 7, 2006)

For all those who don't have a "recipe" for horns or don't care about shooting a big buck, maybe you should shoot them as spikes.......their legal!!!


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Clint Leopold said:


> Before the antler restrictions deer like this WERE the norm.


hard to beleive as the deer in that pick should have been culled many moons ago. Now he can not be shot legal and will live a long life knocking up does and spreading that gene. There will be a herd improvement for a couple of years, and it will fool many. But over time the meek deer numbers will increase becasue they can not be culled from the herd.

For me I could care less about the law, but the cold hard fact is many hunters will stop hunting because of it. My wife can not afford to make a mistake like that becasue of her employment. Because of this she has choose not to hunt. Any law that limits your choices to kill a deer will also limit hunters and many will stop hunting. A law that takes hunters out of the deer woods is a very bad law. As hunters we are facing an uphill battle that our grandchildern will be fighting tooth and nail in the very near future.

TPWD should be making deer hunting easier, not harder.



Clint Leopold said:


> For all those who don't have a "recipe" for horns or don't care about shooting a big buck, maybe you should shoot them as spikes.......their legal!!!


Should not try to fix what is not broken.


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## Clint Leopold (Mar 7, 2006)

Jolly Roger said:


> hard to beleive as the deer in that pick should have been culled many moons ago. Now he can not be shot legal and will live a long life knocking up does and spreading that gene. There will be a herd improvement for a couple of years, and it will fool many. But over time the meek deer numbers will increase becasue they can not be culled from the herd.
> 
> For me I could care less about the law, but the cold hard fact is many hunters will stop hunting because of it. My wife can not afford to make a mistake like that becasue of her employment. Because of this she has choose not to hunt. Any law that limits your choices to kill a deer will also limit hunters and many will stop hunting. A law that takes hunters out of the deer woods is a very bad law. As hunters we are facing an uphill battle that our grandchildern will be fighting tooth and nail in the very near future.
> 
> ...


I'll end by saying this. I can't speak for where you hunt but where I do it WAS broken. At first everyone in our area was not too thrilled about the law but after 8 years people have come to like it. The attitude was "if I don't shoot it the neighbor will". Now we have no problem seeing a buck that without a doubt is legal. I fully agree that the buck in question should be taken out. But like mentioned in an earlier post, if your buck to doe ratio is right this guy will very rarely get the chance to pass on those genes. Some may or may not agree on this but so be it. Good luck and happy hunting!


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## SeaTex (Aug 27, 2009)

Jolly Roger are you guys hunting in East Texas?


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## Benny (May 21, 2004)

Jolly Roger said:


> Ugly deer, he should have been taken out a long time ago.
> 
> The full failure of the antler restrictions will be clear in a couple of deer generations when ugly deer like the one in the pic are the norm running around knocking up does. Not counting the people like my wife who choose to stop hunting instead of taking a chance of breaking the law. Horrible law.


Gotta agree with Clint on this one JR. This particular deer is a freak. For every one of him, there is many more typical deer breeding. Under your assumption, all of those would have to somehow die in order for these type of deer to be the "norm" in a few generations. The antler restriction laws were not some arbitrary "try it to see if it will work" law, it was tested and there are many studies to back the results. In fact, it's worked so well in Texas that many States are looking to implement the law statewide in other places. On our place, like Clint's we have been under the restrictions as long as anyone, and seeing 4-5 shooter bucks a hunt is becoming the norm for us, not the opposite. Yes, there are exception deer, but they aren't somehow taking over the gene pool. LOL

As to quitting hunting all together because you don't want to make a mistake is nonsensical. If there's a question about the legality of the animal, don't pull the trigger. If there's a question about whether a stop light is green, you stop. It's not rocket science.


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## Pocboy (Aug 12, 2004)

I've got to agree with the benefit of the antler restrictions. They''ve been in place in Victoria County for 4 or 5 years I believe and we have seen a steady increase in buck quality and this year I've seen more bucks than ever before. In addition, I've seen several bucks that you know you can shoot even without checking the ears, and I actually took one on opening day. In addition, I hunt just as much to be outdoors and enjoy the serenity as I do to take a legal deer.


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

SeaTex said:


> Jolly Roger are you guys hunting in East Texas?


Yes, Japser county



Benny said:


> Gotta agree with Clint on this one JR. This particular deer is a freak. For every one of him, there is many more typical deer breeding. Under your assumption, all of those would have to somehow die in order for these type of deer to be the "norm" in a few generations. The antler restriction laws were not some arbitrary "try it to see if it will work" law, it was tested and there are many studies to back the results. In fact, it's worked so well in Texas that many States are looking to implement the law statewide in other places. On our place, like Clint's we have been under the restrictions as long as anyone, and seeing 4-5 shooter bucks a hunt is becoming the norm for us, not the opposite. Yes, there are exception deer, but they aren't somehow taking over the gene pool. LOL
> 
> As to quitting hunting all together because you don't want to make a mistake is nonsensical. If there's a question about the legality of the animal, don't pull the trigger. If there's a question about whether a stop light is green, you stop. It's not rocket science.


Not all would have to die, they will just become outnumbered.

Some areas the law will work great, others it will be a complete failure. Like I said, will see a net gain in the sort term, and it will fool many. But the math does not lie, kill only good deer and leave the meek to roam and they will take over. There "test" have been far to short sighted.


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## PasadenaMan (Dec 5, 2007)

more corn please sir, MORE!!!!!!???? (lol)


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

PasadenaMan said:


> more corn please sir, MORE!!!!!!???? (lol)


we hunt over food plots and protein feed most of the year. If that was a shot at guys who feed corn, you missed. Due to the river bottom and acorn trees in my area, about pointless to corn feed. Many of the guys do feed corn around me, but deer always stop eating it around the first of hunting season. I do fertlize the acorn trees, and I also have been planting acorn tress for many years now. Only reason I feed corn is at times to kill pigs, mostly in the spring.

I have hyjacked this thread enough, good luck guys and gals.


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## Bholland8 (Dec 27, 2007)

where you hunting at? he looks familiar


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## SeaTex (Aug 27, 2009)

Jolly Roger said:


> Yes, Japser county
> 
> Not all would have to die, they will just become outnumbered.
> 
> Some areas the law will work great, others it will be a complete failure. Like I said, will see a net gain in the sort term, and it will fool many. But the math does not lie, kill only good deer and leave the meek to roam and they will take over. There "test" have been far to short sighted.


*Here are the stats in 2008 when your county was being considered for antler restrictions. 33 years pre-rule and 7 years after the rule went into place.*

*Houston Chronicle article from Febuary 2008*

*Telling statistics*

TPWD has four decades worth of deer harvest (age, weight, antler measurement) data for those counties, Calkins said. And those data underscore just how dramatic the change in buck harvest (which reflects composition of the bucks in a deer herd) has been. 
"This past year, for the first time, hunters killed more 3 1/2 -year-old bucks than 1 1/2 -year-olds," he said.
Calkins said he would expect the same results in the southern Pineywoods two or three years after antler restrictions were in place.
"Support for the antler restrictions has been very strong in the counties where it has been in effect; hunters see the results," he said.

*New considerations*

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department wildlife division staff are considering proposing to add 11 counties in the East Texas Pineywoods to the current list of 61 Texas counties where deer hunters are restricted to taking buck white-tailed deer whose antlers meet certain requirements.


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## Bukkskin (Oct 21, 2009)

A few whacks with a claw hammer will turn a deer like that into a legal spike. Just sayin


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## bearwrestler (Nov 16, 2010)

I hunt in Hardin County and 1 out of every ten bucks I've caught on camera may turn into something over 13" but would never near a trophy. A trophy in Hardin County would be a cull anywhere else. You can hunt a lifetime here and never see the deer most of you call a trophy. Not crying, just saying I grew up here and it's always been more about the meat. TPWD should not be in the trophy business. What works in some countys does not work in all counties. There wasn't any hogs here for years until a few clubs imported some just so paying members would have something to hunt and keep thier membership dropout rates down.


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## big john o (Aug 12, 2005)

ground check.


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## SeaTex (Aug 27, 2009)

Look like these guys?


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## bowfishrp (Apr 5, 2007)

That is not a pretty buck at all.

I can tell you right now that the antler restrictions are working in Colorado County! There are so many small plots (less than 100 acres) that everything that had horns go shot and no one could get a doe permits so the only doe taken were with a bow. It was very rare to see anything in my area that was over 6-7 points. 
NOW, we see lots of horns and it is great. I love taking my son and seeing lots of bucks. He took a real big 8 last year and cousin took a 10 opening weekend. They work in our area.


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## bearwrestler (Nov 16, 2010)

I had 2 deer 1 to 11/2 yrs old on my cam ,1 spike 1 a 3 pt, the spikes were so long and straight that I had a buddy convinced they were crossed with African antelope.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

BS JR...people don't stop hunting due to laws that actually improve hunting...they give the program time and then reap the benefits.



> The full failure of the antler restrictions will be clear in a couple of deer generations when ugly deer like the one in the pic are the norm running around knocking up does.


It's been about 8 generations and all is well; so what now JR?

TH


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## saltwater_therapy (Oct 14, 2005)

time to make sausage


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Trouthunter said:


> BS JR...people don't stop hunting due to laws that actually improve hunting...


I know for a fact people have stopped hunting because of this law.



redduck said:


> We had some disappointed hunters but only three left the lease.





Trouthunter said:


> BS JR...people don't stop hunting due to laws that actually improve hunting...they give the program time and then reap the benefits.
> 
> It's been about 8 generations and all is well; so what now JR?
> 
> TH


8 generations where????? Been 2 YEARS In many counties.

8 deer generations is over 40 years.


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## SeaTex (Aug 27, 2009)

Every year is a generation in the deer herd. It's been eight for the original counties in which my property is located, And Trouthunter is right...ALL IS WELL...and GOOD. 

Two years is not enough time for you to make a judgement. Hell a typical Buck will not make the 13" until he's 3-1/2 years old. Get some mature deer in your herd before you jump to conclusions.


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## Flat's Hunter (Oct 18, 2007)

I think some of the naysayers put too much stock in to the whole genetics thing. Antler genetics is very complicated with alot of genes involved. On these free ranging deer, there is a whole lot of breeding going on and hunters have very little effect on the selection process. is going to have some effect sure, but the average is not going to move much, natural selection is still in play, and with a balanced age structure natural selection of the best buck will be more in play.

That being said, I really think TPWD needs to have an age exception to the rule for buck like that. Sure you need a measure that everyone can follow, So I agree with the spread, but if I can tell a deer is older than what is considered the goal, which I believe is 3.5 years old, then I should be allowed to take it, and supply proof with an attached jaw bone


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## SeaTex (Aug 27, 2009)

Flats Hunter, 
It took around 15 years of going to the annual TPWD hearings before the Wildlife Management Associations in the original counties (Austin, Colorado, Washington, Fayette, Lee, Lavaca) were able to get them to put antler restrictions in place and it was only supposed to be for the 2002,03,04 seasons. The results spoke for itself and it took off from there. Getting the age structure of the herd turned around was the goal and it worked (As well as producing better bucks in our area). I agree with your logic, but it would be difficult to teach the average hunter to age a buck on the hoof...heck I still find myself sitting there saying "He's legal but does he make 5-1/2 years old"...which is my management goal on my property.


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## bearwrestler (Nov 16, 2010)

At what point did deer season become trophy buck season. I buy the same licence everyone else does.How come squirrels don't have to have a certain size set of nuts before you can kill them? How come rabbits don't have to have certain length ears?
It's because the big money is in trophy deer, for the state and for the big land owners who charge to hunt them. If people want to hunt trophies with large antlers that's fine, but I grew up the old way, it's about the meat first. My trophy is what is above thier 4 feet not above ears. If I shoot a small buck I'm leaving the big ones alone for the trophy hunters. A buck is a buck is a buck.


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## SeaTex (Aug 27, 2009)

The rule is in place to allow bucks to survive to be three years old, not to develop Trophy's. A typical 3-1/2 year old buck will have an average inside spread of 13". Your license allows you to hunt wildlife that belong to the "State of Texas". Last I looked there are many folks who pay taxes and make up said State.

For your information it was many small acreage landowners who formed Wildlife Management Associations back in the 1990's that pushed for the rule. There are fewer and fewer Large landowners today as the family farms and ranches are being subdivided between family members or are being sold off in smaller parcels. So hunting pressure has gone off the charts in many areas. So some guy now has 20 acres and allows himself, his kids and all his buds to take a deer off his property. They all had that "A Buck is a Buck is a Buck attitude". That's the way it was where I'm at. So now that the pressure has been reduced it is natural that a person will see bigger and better bucks...not necessarily Trophys. We still have "Meat Hunters" in my area but at least that buck is allowed to somewhat mature.

They too pitched a fit when the rule was put in place 8 years ago...Funny I don't hear much ******'in from them anymore.


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