# Some thoughts on hell.



## KeeperTX

"A Loving God Wouldn't Send Anyone To Hell"

_Then He will also say to those on the left hand, â€˜Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. -Jesus Christ; Matthew 25:41
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. -Romans 5:8 _

Occasionally someone would say to Joe, â€œA loving God would not send anyone to Hell.â€ Joe Brumbelow would sometimes respond with this illustration:

Suppose your medical doctor told you that you were dying and there was no hope - and you replied, â€œIsnâ€™t there any hope? Doctor, you canâ€™t just let me die.â€ Suppose you begged and pleaded with the doctor until he said, â€œThere is just one hope. There is a very rare and expensive medicine, but I know you could never afford it.â€ You replied, â€œDoctor, please let me live. Youâ€™ve got to get me that medicine.â€

Suppose the doctor took pity on you and determined he was going to obtain that medicine, no matter the cost. The doctor sold his house, sold his car and anything else he had of value. Then he borrowed all the money he could, even though it would put him in debt for the rest of his life. Finally he scraped the money together and gave it all to buy you that vial of costly medicine.

The doctor comes to you with the medicine and tells you how much it cost him. â€œMy wife and children will be in poverty from now on, but we couldnâ€™t let you die,â€ he tells you. He then carefully hands you the precious vial of medicine.

Suppose you looked at that vial of medicine in disdain, and then threw it to the floor. The doctor watches in horror as the vial that cost him everything breaks and the medicine runs into the floor.

Then suppose you had the audacity to say, â€œDoctor, youâ€™re not just going to let me die are you? I thought you loved me more than that.â€

You were a sinner headed for Hell. But God loved you and gave His only begotten Son, the most precious thing He had. Jesus went to the cross for you. He shed His royal blood, gave His life for you and then rose again. Because of the incredible sacrifice Jesus made for you on Calvary, you can simply accept Him as Lord and Saviour and be forgiven and escape Hell. But you reject the most precious gift that has ever been given; then have the audacity to say, â€œHow could a loving God send someone like me to Hell?" 
-from The Wit and Wisdom of Pastor Joe Brumbelow, Hannibal Books.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, September 3, AD 2012.

http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/search/label/Illustrations


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## atcfisherman

Right on! There are some cults like the JW that teach hell is "symbolic" only and that a loving God could not sent someone to hell. Suppose you are driving on a road in the mountains and see a sign that says, "sharp curve ahead, slow down to 10 mph." Is that just "symbolic?" No! It is meant to be heeded or you would crash. God has given us plenty of warnings.


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## KeeperTX

That is true atcfisherman. I've had my share of run-ins with JW's and even when you show them straight from the bible, they will not accept it. That cult does a good job of brainwashing and changing the bible to a version that fits them.

Hell is very real brother. The folks who say it's not are really hoping that it's not real because then they would feel more comfortable in their sin. And the problem is that not many churches nowadays preach on hell or sin. It's too negative. People want positive preaching only. No doom & gloom please, only blessing and prosperity.


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## melvinrod

*Thoughts on Hell*

It is a real place Jesus actually makes mention of hell more then He does heaven. You send yourself to that place by the way you live.


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## WillieT

The scriptures say "the wages of sin is death". The scriptures do not say the wage of sin is eternal torment. Fire is used in a symbolic form throughout the scriptures. Hell is the common grave of mankind, and many millions will be resurrected from the grave.

God is the epitome of love. If you have a child and they misbehave very badly and are going to be punished. Would any loving father take them over to the stove, turn the burner on, and hold that Childs hand to the fire for minutes or hours. No, and yet many believe that God, who is love, could do so. I was taught that, but never could believe it even when I was a Methodist.


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## KeeperTX

shaggydog said:


> The scriptures say "the wages of sin is death". The scriptures do not say the wage of sin is eternal torment. Fire is used in a symbolic form throughout the scriptures. Hell is the common grave of mankind, and many millions will be resurrected from the grave.
> 
> God is the epitome of love. If you have a child and they misbehave very badly and are going to be punished. Would any loving father take them over to the stove, turn the burner on, and hold that Childs hand to the fire for minutes or hours. No, and yet many believe that God, who is love, could do so. I was taught that, but never could believe it even when I was a Methodist.


I rebuke you and your false doctrine in the name of Jesus. We are not God and God is not a man. Stop twisting the word of God before it's too late. God's ways are not our ways. And Jesus is God. There is only one God - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Amen.


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## WillieT

The scriptures are very clear on death, the condition of the dead, and the hope for the dead. People can make their choice on following what the scriptures say, or following the teachings of man. 

If I have a loan, and I fulfill the terms of that loan, that loan is paid in full, nothing should be added to it. Same with the condition of the dead, once they pay for their sin, that is it, nothing will be added. Scriptures that support this:


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## WillieT

The scriptures are very clear on death, the condition of the dead, and the hope for the dead. People can make their choice on following what the scriptures say, or following the teachings of man. 

If I have a loan, and I fulfill the terms of that loan, that loan is paid in full, nothing should be added to it. Same with the condition of the dead, once they pay for their sin, that is it, nothing will be added. Scriptures that support this:

Romans 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. (NWT)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV)

Psalm 146:4 â€œHis spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; on that very day his thoughts perish.â€ (NWT) New World Translation
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (KJV) King James Version

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten (NWT)
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (KJV)
If you are burning in hell, you would be aware of it, you would know it. The scriptures are clear, the dead know not anything.

When you break down Romans 6:23 notice it says "but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord", very clearly showing that Jesus and God are two different entities. This is also supported at:
Psalm 83:18 â€œMay people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.â€ (NWT)
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. (KJV)
Note the scriptures say that Jehovah, you alone are the Most High...." not you with Jesus, not you with the Holy Spirit, but you alone.

Isaiah 42:8 â€œI am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, nor my praise to graven images.â€ (NWT)
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (KJV)
Here is where a great deal of confusion begins. God's personal name, Jehovah, was used over 7,000 times in the original scriptures. Most versions of the scriptures have eliminated the name Jehovah, and inserted titles. That has caused confusion among men for centuries. There are many Lords and Gods, but there is only one God Almighty, and that is Jehovah. Even Satan is a god, and it says so in the scriptures. The removal of God's personal name has led many people astray.

Exodus 20: 4,5 â€œYou must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. â€¯You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me, (NWT)
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (KJV)
Wording is a little different, meaning is the same. Exclusive devotion, or jealous God, both indicate one being, exclusive is one. I included vs 4 also because it hold a very strong message on its own.

Genesis 1:2 2 â€¯Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and Godâ€™s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters. (NWT)
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (KJV)

In the NWT it speaks of God's active force, in the KJV it speaks of the Spirit of God. In both instances it shows possession. It is holy spirit that is in possession of Jehovah God himself, and it is something He controls.

These are not my words, these are God's words, if you chose to dispute them, you are not disputing them, you are disputing God himself. 

I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to show what God's word says and why I believe what I do.


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## KeeperTX

*You are not to change the bible.*

Yet that's what has been done.



> The New World Translation is unique in one thing â€" it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group's doctrine. The Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs. The â€œNew World Bible Translation Committeeâ€ went through the Bible and changed any Scripture that did not agree with Jehovahâ€™s Witness theology. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that, as new editions of the New World Translation were published, additional changes were made to the biblical text. As biblical Christians continued to point out Scriptures that clearly argue for the deity of Christ (for example), the Watchtower Society would publish new editions of the New World Translation with those Scriptures changed. Here are some of the more prominent examples of intentional revisions:
> 
> http://www.gotquestions.org/New-World-Translation.html


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## WillieT

The NWT was taken from the original scrolls. You can copy and paste whatever you want but it does not make it the truth. 

If you took the time to read what I said in the post, you would be aware that I quoted every scripture not only from the NWT, but also the KJV. 

When you talk about changing the scriptures, what do you say about all the translation that removed God's personal name,Jehovah from the scriptures. That one thing has confused more people than anything else from understanding the truths of God's Word. The original scrolls used His personal name over 7000 times. Those that have not removed it completely have included it in only one or two scriptures.


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## jimk

I think disciples like Peter...or Paul would not recognize the name "Jehovah." The letter "J" was the last letter to be added to the English language and is not contained in the original KJ 1611 bible.


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## WillieT

jimk said:


> I think disciples like Peter...or Paul would not recognize the name "Jehovah." The letter "J" was the last letter to be added to the English language and is not contained in the original KJ 1611 bible.


True, just like we would not recognize the writings in the original scrolls unless we were a student of that language. Jehovah is the recognized spelling and name of God in the English language.

You also support my point that the most important name in the universe was left out of that translation, even though it was used over 7000 times in the original scrolls.


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## jimk

shaggydog said:


> True, just like we would not recognize the writings in the original scrolls unless we were a student of that language. Jehovah is the recognized spelling and name of God in the English language.
> 
> You also support my point that the most important name in the universe was left out of that translation, even though it was used over 7000 times in the original scrolls.


Jehovah was not "left out." It was just not spelled "Jehovah." We use the name "Jesus" and the original KJV spelled it "Iesous" as in the "INRI" banner on the cross.


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## WillieT

jimk said:


> Jehovah was not "left out." It was just not spelled "Jehovah." We use the name "Jesus" and the original KJV spelled it "Iesous" as in the "INRI" banner on the cross.


Jesus and Jehovah are two different entities. The Trinity did not make sense to me even when it was being taught to me as a Methodist. The scriptures never indicated to me that they were the same. The KJV refers to Jesus many times, but Jehovah twice. That alone shows they are different, along with many other scriptures. Jesus himself says "the father is greater than I".

If you read my earlier post it also addressed the Holy Spirit which is Jehovahs Holy Spirit and is controlled by Him as he chooses. It does not act alone. Genesis 1:2 shows that in the possessive form.

It is always nice to show what the scriptures indicate, not what your or my thoughts are. That is exactly what I did in my earlier post.


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## jimk

shaggydog said:


> Jesus and Jehovah are two different entities. The Trinity did not make sense to me even when it was being taught to me as a Methodist. The scriptures never indicated to me that they were the same. The KJV refers to Jesus many times, but Jehovah twice. That alone shows they are different, along with many other scriptures. Jesus himself says "the father is greater than I".
> 
> If you read my earlier post it also addressed the Holy Spirit which is Jehovahs Holy Spirit and is controlled by Him as he chooses. It does not act alone. Genesis 1:2 shows that in the possessive form.
> 
> It is always nice to show what the scriptures indicate, not what your or my thoughts are. That is exactly what I did in my earlier post.


Right...I gave the "J" version of Yeshua, but Jehovah is there also....just spelled differently in the original Bible. The origin of the name is interesting.


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## WillieT

It is interesting, means "He causes to become".


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## tngbmt

> Jesus and Jehovah are two different entities


John 10:30


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## jimk

Shaggy...it's best that we agree to disagree. 

Let's do this....I'll pray for you for enlightenment and you do the same for me. Deal?


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## WillieT

tngbmt said:


> John 10:30


Look at that scripture in context. When you look at vs. 29 it says that my Father has given, showing two different entities. When Jesus says "the Father and I are one", he is indicating that they are of one mind. They think exactly the same on matters.

To illustrate, when a man and woman are married, many times I have heard a preacher say, "you are now one." Not meaning they are only one person, but they are united in Thoughts and goals.

There are too many scriptures that make it clear they are not the same personage. Who was Jesus praying to all the many times he prayed? In the model pray, he prayed for the sanctification of his Fathers name, he did not say "hallowed be my name".

Too many scriptures indicate to me that they are not the same.

I was originally taught th trinity and it never made sense to me then. Now I know why.


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## WillieT

jimk said:


> Shaggy...it's best that we agree to disagree.
> 
> Let's do this....I'll pray for you for enlightenment and you do the same for me. Deal?


I will pray that you come to know Jehovah, who He is, the many truths of His Word, and the many blessings He has for all mankind that embrace Him.


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## KeeperTX

I will pray that God has mercy on you.


For preaching another Jesus.


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## jimk

shaggydog said:


> I will pray that you come to know Jehovah, who He is, the many truths of His Word, and the many blessings He has for all mankind that embrace Him.


....and I'm praying for your enlightenment.
Jim


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## atcfisherman

Since Shaggy is back with his cult teaching, lets talk about how accurate the JW leaders interpret scriptures. Here are some facts from the apostate cult JW.

Here are the scholars they trust.
​ *Translator **& Qualifications*​Franz, Frederick
Probably the only person to actually translate. Franz was a liberal arts student at the University of Cincinnati:


21 semester hours of classical Greek, some Latin. 
Partially completed a two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek in junior year. 
Self-taught in Spanish, biblical Hebrew and Aramaic 
 Gangas, George
No training in biblical languages. Gangas was a Turkish national who knew Modern Greek. Translated Watchtower publications into Modern Greek.

Henschel, Milton
No training in biblical languages.

Klein, Karl
No training in biblical languages.

Knorr, Nathan
No training in biblical languages

Schroeder, Albert
No training in biblical languages. Schroeder majored in mechanical engineering for three years before dropping out.


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## atcfisherman

Shaggy will not see the truth. He has been brain washed for so long and his pride keeps him from seeing it. Plus, the JW cult will disown their own families if they see the truth and leave. I can't believe the moderator allowed him back on here because a year ago, he was causing problems so much that people would not openly discuss topics here, me for one. If he stays, I go!!!! 

I've learned a lot and have enjoyed must of the readings on here from different view on select topics. But if Shaggy is back, I will not be. He is a mean evil person! Just seeing him back makes me upset. The JW cult is one of the most damaging cults to true Christianity and Jesus warned us about these. 

Good luck to you who discuss with him.


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## TrueblueTexican

*Parable*

. the rich man also died, and was buried; 
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my fatherâ€™s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)

Sorry Shaggy a REAL Hell - Watchtower is deceiving many

Jesus said 
In Mark 9:46, Jesus Christ says about hell: "Where THEIR WORM dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Your corporate body knows nothing after you draw your last breath - however you are judged, your spirit arrives in either heaven or hell inside your bodily form - I can go all night with scripture to show you , but best you study with the Holy Spirit as your guide --

The Witness is twisting Gods word to fit a preconceived notion and ignoring many parts of Gods word on the subject - God is not the JW's LOVE , he is Holy and Just - Watchtower "Jehovah" is a FALSE God sent by Lucifer himself to confound and confuse the brethren. I know you mean well but SIR you are deceived in these last days , you have the head knowledge to fit an agenda driven by your cult - May God shine his countenance upon you and bring light in your darkness.


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## TrueblueTexican

*Followers of Christ*

Arm yourself for in these LAST DAYS many FALSE TEACHINGS will abound. Many will come to deceive and confuse, claiming kinship with God Almighty. having the attributes, looking and sounding right , but always having the ONE TRUE PATH, from such teaching seeking to confuse and used as tools of Lucifer.

Shaggy is deceived, he knows Gods Word, but is believing twisted lies.

The Watchtower Witnesses make many claims in their attempt to convert you to their deceptions. They profess to have the only true Christian church, to be the only true representatives of God, to have the only correct biblical teaching, and to be the only true announcers of Jehovah's coming kingdom.

If they are the only true church and are the only true voice of God's word, then what they say should prove to be true and especially in prophecy. When it comes to predicting the future, the Watchtower organization fails miserably. Following are some of the false predictions made over the years by the Watchtower organization. If you present these to Shaggy, he will probably say something like, "Those are taken out of context," or "They didn't claim to be the prophet of God," or "The light is getting brighter, and we are understanding Bible prophecy better now," etc. Make a copy of these false prophecies, found in the appendix, and give it to them to check. They are right out of the Witnesses' literature.

Remember Deut. 18:22, "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." If someone makes a false prophecy and they have claimed to be a prophet of God, then they are false prophets and are not to be listened to. Do the Witnesses claim to be the prophet of God? Yes, they do.

In 1972 the Jehovah's Witness Watchtower claimed to be the prophet of God.

IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"--"So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? . . . This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197). (See Deut. 18:21.)

1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874," (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 4, p. 621).
1899 " . . . the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced," (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 edition, p. 101).
1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873," (The Time Is at Hand, forward, p. ii).
1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection," (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89).
1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914," (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262).
1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).
1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year," (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, p. 3).
1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work," (Watchtower, Sept., 1925, p. 262).
1926 "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything," (Watchtower, p. 232).
1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates," (Vindication, p. 338).
1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon," (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1941, p. 288).
1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? . . . Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them," (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).
1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494).
Shaggy might say that the organization is still learning. If that is so, then how can they trust what they are taught now by the Watchtower? Will what they are being taught now change also?

A true prophet of God won't err in prophesying. Only a false prophet does. The Jehovah's Witness organization, that claims to be a prophet of God, is really a false prophet. Jesus warned us by saying, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible" (Matt. 24:24).

Shaggy we can go many days on this but its best I just pray God will open your eyes to his word.


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## WillieT

Lots of lies spread here and on the internet about Jehovah's Witnesses. The truth about the bible is that we used many other translations of the bible before The New World Translation was issued in 1961. Before then other translations were used, including the King James Version.

As far as the interpreters, I know they went back to the original scriptures. It's funny that people want to attack me, when is all I did was to quote the scriptures, including the King James version, to support my beliefs, as I have in the past.

People like to attack, because of what they hear about the witnesses. Hearsay is very dangerous. If you have never been to a meeting, see how it is conducted, and that the beliefs come from God's Word, you have no idea of the truth.

I was not raised a witness, so I have seen both sides of the coin, not like those on here that only go by what they have heard or the apostate web sites they like to visit and quote. I will continue to support my beliefs directly from the scriptures. I will use both the King James version as well as The New World Translation, which is exactly what we do when we are in the ministry. We always encourage people we meet to get their copy of the bible. If that is wrong, so be it.

We are very aware of false prophets.

Never has there been a date set predicting the end of the world. Nobody knows the day and the hour, but the composite sign shows that we are near the end.


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## TrueblueTexican

*Shedding light*

I am not "attacking" you personally Shaggy - just pointing out the many ERRORS in the Watchtower cult - Indeed you know the scriptures in the Watchtower "bible" which is also in error, as well as what was contained by King James Scholars, Watchtower claims inerrant word from original scrolls - however, it also claims it is the one and only "Christian" org.

A short "history" of Watchtower founding :

The Jehovah's Witnesses was begun by Charles Taze Russell in 1872. He was born on February 16, 1852, the son of Joseph L. and Anna Eliza Russell. He had great difficulty in dealing with the doctrine of eternal hell fire, and in his studies came to deny not only eternal punishment but also the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the Holy Spirit. When Russell was 18, he organized a Bible class in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In 1879 he sought to popularize his aberrant ideas on doctrine. He co-published The Herald of the Morning magazine with its founder, N. H. Barbour; and by 1884 Russell controlled the publication and renamed it The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom and founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society (now known as the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society). The first edition of The Watchtower magazine was only 6,000 copies each month. Today the Witnesses' publishing complex in Brooklyn, New York, churns out 100,000 books and 800,000 copies of its two magazines--daily!

Russell claimed that the Bible could be only understood according *to his* *interpretations*--a dangerous arrangement since he controlled what was written in the Watchtower magazine. This kind of assertion is typical among leaders of cult religions.

After the death of Russell on Oct. 31, 1916, a Missouri lawyer named Joseph Franklin Rutherford took over the presidency of the Watch Tower Society which was known then as the International Bible Students Association. In 1931 he changed the name of the organization to "The Jehovah's Witnesses."

After Rutherford's death, Nathan Knorr took over. After Knorr, Frederick William Franz became president.

The Society was led by Mr. Henschel who died in 2003. The group has over 4 million members worldwide. The Watchtower Society statistics indicate that 740 house calls are required to recruit each of the nearly 200,000 new members who join every year.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have several â€˜book studies' each week. The members are not required to attend, but there is a level of expectation that gently urges converts to participate. It is during these â€˜book studies' that the Jehovah's Witness is constantly exposed to counter Christian teachings. The average Jehovah's Witness with his constant Watchtower indoctrination could easily pummel the average Christian when it comes to defending his beliefs.

The Jehovah's Witnesses vehemently portray the doctrine of the Trinity as pagan in origin and that Christendom, as a whole, has bought the lie of the devil. Along with denying the Trinity is an equally strong denial of the deity of Christ, the deity of the Holy Spirit, the belief in hell, and eternal conscious punishment in hell.

One of the MAIN ATTRIBUTES of a CULT is leadership that has THE ONLY INTERPRETATION and is thus INFALLIBLE.

MANKIND is broken, corrupt , EVIL, and without the HOLY Spirit, Jesus sacrifice on a Roman Cross for redemption of mankind, ALL humanity would be on a Journey to the pit !!!

According to The Watchtower Society, Christ was â€œdirectly created by God.â€ Moreover, in answering the question, â€œIs the firstborn Son equal to God, as some believe?,â€ they answer,

â€œThis is not what the Bible teaches.

Christ, to the Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses, is not eternal. That is, he had a beginning; and there was a time when he did not exist. Therefore, he is not God; but does this square with the biblical witness of John 1:1

â€œIn the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.â€? I believe that it does not. The Watchtower is in error, "not Gods Word" - Followers of Christ ARM yourself, learn what these cults do, be prepared to REFUTE Lucifer - the day is coming , you must RESIST the temptation to blow which ever way the wind brings you - otherwise you will accept ANYTHING and be in grave danger of eternal separation from your Creator !!!

AS far as following Gods word, heretical rebellion to a "Christian" body led in ERROR is a good thing - Lucifer is VERY CLEVER, in interjecting confusion into the Nicene Creed, and adoption of the Roman Church idol worship, fallacies in interpretations of Dead Sea Scrolls - scholarly study has corrected many errors, but changing and twisting meanings, to fit human belief leads to more confusion, and allows Cult leaders to do the work of Lucifer.


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## WillieT

I think you like to post without reading a post you are responding to. I am well aware of the history of the organization. Charles T. Russell never said that, nor did he ever provide an interpretation of the bible. The New World Translation was not published until 1961, according to your own post, Charles Russell died in 1916. 

When you are speaking of different bible versions, how do you address the fact that the name of God, Jehovah, has been left out or referenced once or twice, when it was referred to over 7,000 times in the original scrolls? The most important name in the universe, and those bibles do not want to use it. Why? It is most significant.

We attend meetings and study because the more we know about our loving God, Jehovah, the closer our relationship with Him becomes. All of our literature is based on the scriptures, which are either quoted or cited. 

Please show me in the scriptures where the Trinity is mentioned. It is not! It never made sense to me when they tried to drum it into my head when I was a Methodist. The scriptures that I read never indicated to me that Jesus and Jehovah were the same. Jehovah is eternal. Jesus is His first creation.
Colossians 1: 12-15 (King James Version)

12 Giving thanks unto the Father (one entity), which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (second entity):

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood , even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature(speaking of Jesus Christ):

New World Translation of the same scriptures

12â€¯as you thank the Father, who made you qualify to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in the light.

13â€¯He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son,

14â€¯by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.

15â€¯He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

How can these be interpreted differently, and how do they not clearly show that Jesus and Jehovah are different personages? This is just one passage of scripture. Remember, Paul wrote this letter AFTER Jesus' death.

Please read my post, and the other statements I have made before you respond.


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## WillieT

King James version of Revelation 1:1 is pretty clear also. If Jesus was God, he would not have to have the Revelation given to him.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This is after he ascended to heaven, so if he were the same pr equal, he would already know.


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## TrueblueTexican

*The NWT*

Does a poor job of Greek interpretation, as it is a Watchtower generator, I don't give it much credence.

There is one God. The Word is God; Yahweh is God; and the Holy Spirit is God. However, the Son is not the Father; and the Father is not the Son. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is not the Father nor is he the Son.

JW interpretation (who are really modern-day Arians) is to abolish all mystery about a HOLY God. Because the Trinity does not make sense in the JW belief, it must be wrong. So, after mistranslating Holy Scripture, they deceive themselves into thinking the Trinity is unbiblical. In the end, human reasoning has the final say for them.

But with the Triune God of the Bible, mystery is a good thing, and it should be embraced. After all, why would we, mere dependant humans, want to serve a God who is exhaustible and as one who can be figured out? To be sure, God has revealed himself in Scripture, and he is known personally through Christ. But it is our jobâ€"as responsible exegetes of Scripture and as obedient childrenâ€"to not allow that revelation of God to be distorted or repackaged into something nice and tidy.

Any divergence from what we know to be biblical truth about the nature of the Godhead is heresy. It conveys to the world a false god and ultimately a false Christ.

And a false Christ does not save.

Jeshua, Yahweh, and the Spirit sent to man at Pentecost, and when God accepts your life in dedication and following Christ, the Spirit given as a helpmate in study and reproof.

Shaggy in deception and the obvious proof that Jehovah's Witnesses spell YHWH wrong as "Jehovah" is the fact that the letter "J" doesn't even exist in Hebrew, Greek, Latin. Further, the English language did not have a letter "J" before about 1500 AD. For example, the very first edition of the KJV printed in 1611 AD, contained no "J". Not even one! Instead the letter "I" is used for Jew, Jesus, Joshua, Joanna, John AND the person pronoun "I". Instead these words were written in 1611 AD as, Iew, Iesus, Ioshua, Ioanna, Iohn. The Watchtower of Jehovah's witnesses tell us that the reason they continue to use "Jehovah" instead of the correct spelling Yahweh, is to be pleasing to man, not God.

One of the first things that JW new converts learn from the Watchtower organization, is the lie that all Bibles are corrupt because they remove the Tetragrammaton from the Old Testament.

Most Jehovah's Witnesses are so dismally mis-informed about the matter that they have no idea how to even find the Tetragrammaton in the original Hebrew text of the Old Testament, much less even heard the term "Tetragrammaton".

What most JW's don't know is that they are the one's who are truly guilty of adding to the word of God because the New World Translation (the JW sectarian paraphrase they call a Bible), actually adds the word "Jehovah" in the New Testament 237 times where it is never found. So the hard cold fact is that the New World Translation adds "Jehovah" into the New Testament 237 times, where there is absolutely no ancient manuscript evidence of any kind to support it.

Shall we continue this dance? Only God will change you Shaggy - you have accepted a lie from the pit,( that you don't believe in.) Its OK maybe the Triune God will allow you a Damascus road experience.


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## WillieT

Again you fail to read what I post. 

Holy Spirit is God? The scriptures do not say that. I have quoted from both the King James version as well as the New World Translation. Here is a quote only from the KJV that shows the holy spirit is not God Almight, but is controlled by God.

Ps 51:10-11

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Part B of the last sentence shows possession by God of the holy spirit. They cannot be equal or the same.

The name Jehovah is used not only in the New World Translation, but many translations because it is the accepted name in English. And you are wrong about the name Jehovah being added. You have not addressed why it has been eliminated so many times from the original language.

I am trying to show from the scriptures why I believe what I do. Those that tend to refute show no scriptural reason, just copy and paste from apostate literature. 

I have been where you are, so I know both sides and teachings. I was aware of all the negative things said about Jehovah's Witnesses before I began to study, but for reasons that are my own, I did decide to study. As I did so it became obvious to me that I was finally learning the truth. 

I am not an ignorant person, have a college degree, and am a pretty good judge of people. I began to study in 1992, I was 43 years old, so I wasn't a kid that was easily duped. I had a lot of questions, all which were answered from the scriptures. Go attend a meeting, see what is taught, how you are treated as a stranger. You will at least get a sense of who and what we are. You cannot get a full sense in one meeting, but will get an idea. You may at least change your opinion of us.

And don't believe everything you read on the internet, especially about Jehovah's Witnesses. If you really want to know the truth go to jw.org.


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## jimk

How about we ask "Jesus," Son of Man when He comes again....can't be too far away!


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## TrueblueTexican

*Shaggy*

I've invited JW "missionaries" into my home many times, I've refuted the lies told them by Lucifer, we have had long discussions, and if nothing else Jehovah Witness are well informed on their versions of scripture, and all will stand before the same God I will someday. To deny Christ is folly - and ALL professing JW will meet their God Lucifer, the Watchtowers Bible will be burned.

I stand opposed to Lucifers deception, in Jesus Name !!!!


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## TrueblueTexican

*Agreed*



jimk said:


> How about we ask "Jesus," Son of Man when He comes again....can't be too far away!


In my fathers house are many mansions - but IF you believe Gods word the ONLY way to salvation is through Christ Jesus Gods Son, God in the Flesh, who walked among men - God tells us "you have seen the Son, you have seen God."

Our time has been ticking down to an exclamation point since Christs birth as a man - kinda like getting old time is passing each day at an accelerated pace -


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## WillieT

I find it strange that people that imply they are men of God, will not use God's word to support their beliefs. It does not matter what you believe, I believe, or anyone else on this board believes. The truth comes from the Word of God, and what it says.

I will continue to use His Word to support my beliefs.

I am not here to attack, just to show what the scriptures say on different subjects. I am not trying to offend anyone.


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## WillieT

jimk said:


> How about we ask "Jesus," Son of Man when He comes again....can't be too far away!


I too believe Armageddon is very near. The scriptures lead me to believe that Jesus sat down at the right hand of God to begin his rule in 1914. At that time, Satan the devil, and all his demons were "hurled down to the vicinity of the earth". Many modern historians agree that 1914 was a pivotal year in the history of the world, with the beginning of WWI. Things have not been the same since. They will do nothing but continue to get worse until Jehovah gives the command and Armageddon will begin. I look forward to that day.


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## TrueblueTexican

*Hmmmm*



shaggydog said:


> Again you fail to read what I post.
> 
> Holy Spirit is God? The scriptures do not say that. I have quoted from both the King James version as well as the New World Translation. Here is a quote only from the KJV that shows the holy spirit is not God Almight, but is controlled by God.
> 
> Ps 51:10-11
> 
> 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
> 
> 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
> 
> Part B of the last sentence shows possession by God of the holy spirit. They cannot be equal or the same.
> 
> The name Jehovah is used not only in the New World Translation, but many translations because it is the accepted name in English. And you are wrong about the name Jehovah being added. You have not addressed why it has been eliminated so many times from the original language.
> 
> I am trying to show from the scriptures why I believe what I do. Those that tend to refute show no scriptural reason, just copy and paste from apostate literature.
> 
> I have been where you are, so I know both sides and teachings. I was aware of all the negative things said about Jehovah's Witnesses before I began to study, but for reasons that are my own, I did decide to study. As I did so it became obvious to me that I was finally learning the truth.
> 
> I am not an ignorant person, have a college degree, and am a pretty good judge of people. I began to study in 1992, I was 43 years old, so I wasn't a kid that was easily duped. I had a lot of questions, all which were answered from the scriptures. Go attend a meeting, see what is taught, how you are treated as a stranger. You will at least get a sense of who and what we are. You cannot get a full sense in one meeting, but will get an idea. You may at least change your opinion of us.
> 
> And don't believe everything you read on the internet, especially about Jehovah's Witnesses. If you really want to know the truth go to jw.org.


A little levity before we proceed, I got my degree from Reader Digest and my Doctorate of Theology from Gods Word -

The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in 1946 and dated from 400 BC to 70 AD,include texts from the Torah or Pentateuch and from other parts of the *Hebrew* Bible, and have provided documentary evidence that, in spite of claims to the contrary, the original Hebrew texts were in fact written without vowel points. This is so even to this day -Vowel points found in printed Hebrew Bibles were devised in the 9th and 10th centuries. Gods name in the tetragrammaton was so sacred Jews did not use it, instead substituted Adonai. The NWT paraphrase is the book which added to Gods Word - Jehovah was never contained in the Dead Sea Scrolls and only came to use in Aryan beliefs.

Lucifer uses parallels which sound good and right, he did this for Islam as well, he did this for the Roman Church Universal, all to blind humanity with confusion - Gods word left for man is inerrant, given the understanding provided by the Holy Spirit -far too often MAN attempts to translate what God means apart from the leading of the Holy Spirit - lead us NOT to our own understanding !!!


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## WillieT

TrueblueTexican said:


> A little levity before we proceed, I got my degree from Reader Digest and my Doctorate of Theology from Gods Word -
> 
> The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in 1946 and dated from 400 BC to 70 AD,include texts from the Torah or Pentateuch and from other parts of the *Hebrew* Bible, and have provided documentary evidence that, in spite of claims to the contrary, the original Hebrew texts were in fact written without vowel points. This is so even to this day -Vowel points found in printed Hebrew Bibles were devised in the 9th and 10th centuries. Gods name in the tetragrammaton was so sacred Jews did not use it, instead substituted Adonai. The NWT paraphrase is the book which added to Gods Word - Jehovah was never contained in the Dead Sea Scrolls and only came to use in Aryan beliefs.
> 
> Lucifer uses parallels which sound good and right, he did this for Islam as well, he did this for the Roman Church Universal, all to blind humanity with confusion - Gods word left for man is inerrant, given the understanding provided by the Holy Spirit -far too often MAN attempts to translate what God means apart from the leading of the Holy Spirit - lead us NOT to our own understanding !!!


OK. lol


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## WillieT

atcfisherman said:


> Shaggy will not see the truth. He has been brain washed for so long and his pride keeps him from seeing it. Plus, the JW cult will disown their own families if they see the truth and leave. I can't believe the moderator allowed him back on here because a year ago, he was causing problems so much that people would not openly discuss topics here, me for one. If he stays, I go!!!!
> 
> I've learned a lot and have enjoyed must of the readings on here from different view on select topics. But if Shaggy is back, I will not be. He is a mean evil person! Just seeing him back makes me upset. The JW cult is one of the most damaging cults to true Christianity and Jesus warned us about these.
> 
> Good luck to you who discuss with him.


I am not sure why you feel this way, but whatever it is I did to upset you I sincerely apologize. I am sure that if you dig up past threads you will have to admit that it was me that was constantly attacked.

I have tried to reach out to you through pm's, but have gotten no response. I am not here to attack anyone, just to show what the scriptures say, and to support what I believe, through God's Word.

Again, if I have offended you, I do apologize. There is really nothing else I can do.


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## TrueblueTexican

*What Gods Word is*

And what the NWT translations are are two VERY divergent paths - there have been centuries of scholarly work on translations from Hebrew , to Greek, to standard English -- King James had the best scholars of his time and this work continues to be refined --

Petros, and Petra come to mind - the Roman Church diverged and erred on the meaning of just these two words, setting this church on a wrong path, Gods word was originally translated into Greek from Ancient Hebrew and in some books Aramaic.

The Watchtower added TO Gods word MUCH later, and changed the real meaning of many verses to fit the Watchtower world view - I could cite any book I wished that I have made memory, maybe I will use the fictional book of Ely and become an Elysian, complete with a mythology from Lucifer that sounds good and start my own cult --

The compilation of Gods word was performed in antiquity, with a language that has no parallel translation into Greek or even Standard English, with the best available manuscripts to be had at the time - the books of the Old Testament are a written history, a guide for health, a guide for law, and given for Jews not Gentiles. The Books of the New Testament Gospels were recorded and did away with Jewish Law, but still used Jewish moral codes, and were a History of Jesus Life, his works, his miracles, and were mostly firsthand accounts of his disciples, and converts to Christianity - right down to actual Words spoken by Christ.

The scholars who compiled the Bible at the time were NOT under political pressure - they were LED BY GOD, and produced a Work that is the most read book in the history of mankind - you add to or subtract from this book at your peril.

Shaggy take a critical look at the NWT, you said you once were a Methodist, allow me to perhaps persuade a change of view - don't belong to any Dogma put forth by man (as in the NWT), instead find a bible translation you can be comfortable reading( I see that has been King James) - ASK the Holy Spirit to lead your understanding EACH time you pick it up to read, stop trying to support/defend the Watchtower and instead support Christ !!!

I once was an agnostic , walking the pathways to Hell -- and at various times have attended just about every denomination in Protestant belief - whats IMPORTANT is that Jesus Christ came in the form of a man, God in the FLESH, and sacrificed himself, defeating DEATH, for those that would follow him, paying forward for mans sin and corruption--- absent belief in Christ, following him, being baptized before men, and anointed with the Holy Spirit, all our works are as filthy rags. Were someone to ask what denomination or organized religion I belong to it will always and forever be as a Follower of Christ. This will free you from mans dogma and allow you to study freely.

The disciples followed Christ - still good enough for me -

I use the New Revised Standard Version of Gods Word --


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## WillieT

TrueblueTexican said:


> And what the NWT translations are are two VERY divergent paths - there have been centuries of scholarly work on translations from Hebrew , to Greek, to standard English -- King James had the best scholars of his time and this work continues to be refined --
> 
> Petros, and Petra come to mind - the Roman Church diverged and erred on the meaning of just these two words, setting this church on a wrong path, Gods word was originally translated into Greek from Ancient Hebrew and in some books Aramaic.
> 
> The Watchtower added TO Gods word MUCH later, and changed the real meaning of many verses to fit the Watchtower world view - I could cite any book I wished that I have made memory, maybe I will use the fictional book of Ely and become an Elysian, complete with a mythology from Lucifer that sounds good and start my own cult --
> 
> The compilation of Gods word was performed in antiquity, with a language that has no parallel translation into Greek or even Standard English, with the best available manuscripts to be had at the time - the books of the Old Testament are a written history, a guide for health, a guide for law, and given for Jews not Gentiles. The Books of the New Testament Gospels were recorded and did away with Jewish Law, but still used Jewish moral codes, and were a History of Jesus Life, his works, his miracles, and were mostly firsthand accounts of his disciples, and converts to Christianity - right down to actual Words spoken by Christ.
> 
> The scholars who compiled the Bible at the time were NOT under political pressure - they were LED BY GOD, and produced a Work that is the most read book in the history of mankind - you add to or subtract from this book at your peril.
> 
> Shaggy take a critical look at the NWT, you said you once were a Methodist, allow me to perhaps persuade a change of view - don't belong to any Dogma put forth by man (as in the NWT), instead find a bible translation you can be comfortable reading( I see that has been King James) - ASK the Holy Spirit to lead your understanding EACH time you pick it up to read, stop trying to support/defend the Watchtower and instead support Christ !!!
> 
> I once was an agnostic , walking the pathways to Hell -- and at various times have attended just about every denomination in Protestant belief - whats IMPORTANT is that Jesus Christ came in the form of a man, God in the FLESH, and sacrificed himself, defeating DEATH, for those that would follow him, paying forward for mans sin and corruption--- absent belief in Christ, following him, being baptized before men, and anointed with the Holy Spirit, all our works are as filthy rags. Were someone to ask what denomination or organized religion I belong to it will always and forever be as a Follower of Christ. This will free you from mans dogma and allow you to study freely.
> 
> The disciples followed Christ - still good enough for me -
> 
> I use the New Revised Standard Version of Gods Word --


Ok.

I do have a question for you. Christs disciplies try to use Jesus as their model and imitate him and the principals he set forth in the way they lead their life. I hope you can agree with that. Jesus instructed his disciples "to go and make disciples...". His disciples did that in his day, and his disciples continue to follow that commission. In his day they did it as an organized group, it is done the same way today. Do you do that, daily, weekly, or even monthly? In an originized environment?

Remember, even though Jesus had many followers, the vast majority rejected the message that he preached, many even witnessed some of the miracles he performed. I understand the opposition that was encountered by Jesus and his disciples, it continues and we know it will continue until the end of this system. The reason for this work is because Jehovah and His son, Jesus, want "none to be destroyed."

People took no heed in Noah's day, just as most take no heed today. We as Jehovah's Witnesses, love our fellow men and want everyone to have the opportunity to hear "the good news of the kingdom" and take advantage of the many blessings that Jehovah has in store for faithful mankind.

Being a disciple of Christ is good enough for me.


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## TrueblueTexican

*In answer*

_I do have a question for you. Christs disciplies try to use Jesus as their model and imitate him and the principals he set forth in the way they lead their life. I hope you can agree with that. Jesus instructed his disciples "to go and make disciples...". His disciples did that in his day, and his disciples continue to follow that commission. In his day they did it as an organized group, it is done the same way today. Do you do that, daily, weekly, or even monthly? In an originized environment?

*To presuppose you must do this in a group or in an organized bunch of folks, shows a poor understanding of Gods Word, Gods Word NEVER goes out empty - nor can you humanly force that word to be heard - in believing so you are waking in your own power not Gods !!!
*_
In answer the Great commission is the one most important aspect of Following Christ - I do that DAILY in speaking to many people, in posts refuting poor understanding of Gods Word, in making friends and WAITING for that opportunity that God will provide to speak to them in earnest about their relationship with God -I have gone to knock on doors in the day of Evangelism Explosion, which I learned were NOT the way to tell others about Christ. God will PROVIDE opportunities for us all to speak to people wandering in the wilderness, just as he provides us with what to say and when, NO ONE PERSON or a group of people will get someone to hear a message unless God FIRST prepares that person to hear it -Christs disciples traveled long distances by foot to reach crowds that were receptive to the message, and also walked long distances with groups of people receptive to their testimony - the WORD is VERY Clear on speaking to people about poor choices Ezekiel 3:18 says this _When I say to a wicked person, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood_. Which to me says - I AM HELD ACCOUNTABLE for my witness, if I don't tell people when God makes that opportunity and they later die apostate, that blood is on me.

Many people take umbrage these days with folks knocking on their door to present their view of the Gospel According to the Watchtower, or according to Joseph Smith -or Even Jesus Gospel message - you cannot FORCE a message without a receptive audience - I get JW and LDS missionaries almost monthly, they get a cup of coffee and time spent outlining their fallacies in faith - I've yet to change an immediate view but GOD then works to do with such visits what he will --

I am a member of a non- denominational fellowship of like believers, we do meet (almost any day of the week you want to be there) and evangelize our community, as well as mission *work* worldwide.

Again I CHALLENGE you Shaggy to stop defending the Watchtower and follow Christ !!!

That would mean being a true Heretic.


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## TrueblueTexican

*A very real and present danger*

Gehenna or Hell

Matt. 5:22, "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, â€˜You fool!â€™ will be liable to the hell of fire."

Matt. 5:29, "If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell."

Matt. 5:30, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."

Matt. 10:28, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matt. 18:9, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire."

Matt. 23:15, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."

Matt. 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"

Mark 9:43, "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."

Mark 9:45, "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell."

Mark 9:47, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,"

Luke 12:5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!"

James 3:6, "And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell."

Hades, Î±Î´Î·Ï‚

Matt. 11:23, "And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."

Matt. 16:18, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

Luke 10:15, "And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades."

Luke 16:23, "and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."

Acts 2:27, "For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption."

Acts 2:31, "he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption."

1 Cor. 15:55, "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?â€
Rev. 1:18, "and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades."

Rev. 6:8, "And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its riderâ€™s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth."

Rev. 20:13, "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."

Rev. 20:14, "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

Tartaros, Ï„Î±ÏÏ„Î±ÏÏŒÏ‚

2 Pet. 2:4, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment."

Hell is a SPIRITUAL place of EXTREME torment designed to contain those Anti-Christs of modern time, Lucifer and Fallen Angels -- it contains those who died after given the opportunity to repent and follow Christ, it contains those Jews and Gentiles who are held ACCOUNTABLE for known sin, it is a PLACE of Fire and torment, its a place of eternal separation from a HOLY GOD !!

Hell is a future place of judgement for fallen angels -- mankind places itself there right along with them, made in Gods image with minds to reason with.

I would love to believe this isn't a real place , but I have seen demonstrated otherwise.


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## WillieT

We use Jesus as our role model. As far as I ministry work goes it is organized and by design, much in the way Jesus and his disciples performed their ministry, in groups or pairs. 

Luke 10: 1-3 After these things the Lord designated 70 others and sent them out by twos ahead of him into every city and place where he himself was to go. 2â€¯Then he said to them: â€œYes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest. 3â€¯Go! Look! I am sending you out as lambs in among wolves

Things are much the same today. We use Jesus and his way of doing thing as our example. We do not do things at random.

Matthew 24: 9-14 9â€¯â€œThen people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name. 10â€¯Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11â€¯Many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12â€¯and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold. 13â€¯But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 14â€¯And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

We are now in 238 different countries, the good news of the kingdom is being preached, basically, in all the nations.

We are also aware of the possible consequences of our preaching work. Recently 2 of our brothers were killed because they would not deny their faith. The number of baptized witness continues to grow, even in countries where the work is banned. Jehovah will not allow it to be stopped. Many have tried.


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## WillieT

TrueblueTexican said:


> Gehenna or Hell
> 
> Matt. 5:22, "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, â€˜You fool!â€™ will be liable to the hell of fire."
> 
> Matt. 5:29, "If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell."
> 
> Matt. 5:30, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."
> 
> Matt. 10:28, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
> 
> Matt. 18:9, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire."
> 
> Matt. 23:15, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."
> 
> Matt. 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
> 
> Mark 9:43, "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."
> 
> Mark 9:45, "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell."
> 
> Mark 9:47, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,"
> 
> Luke 12:5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!"
> 
> James 3:6, "And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell."
> 
> Hades, Î±Î´Î·Ï‚
> 
> Matt. 11:23, "And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."
> 
> Matt. 16:18, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
> 
> Luke 10:15, "And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades."
> 
> Luke 16:23, "and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."
> 
> Acts 2:27, "For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption."
> 
> Acts 2:31, "he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption."
> 
> 1 Cor. 15:55, "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?â€
> Rev. 1:18, "and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades."
> 
> Rev. 6:8, "And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its riderâ€™s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth."
> 
> Rev. 20:13, "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."
> 
> Rev. 20:14, "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."
> 
> Tartaros, Ï„Î±ÏÏ„Î±ÏÏŒÏ‚
> 
> 2 Pet. 2:4, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment."
> 
> Hell is a SPIRITUAL place of EXTREME torment designed to contain those Anti-Christs of modern time, Lucifer and Fallen Angels -- it contains those who died after given the opportunity to repent and follow Christ, it contains those Jews and Gentiles who are held ACCOUNTABLE for known sin, it is a PLACE of Fire and torment, its a place of eternal separation from a HOLY GOD !!
> 
> Hell is a future place of judgement for fallen angels -- mankind places itself there right along with them, made in Gods image with minds to reason with.
> 
> I would love to believe this isn't a real place , but I have seen demonstrated otherwise.


Seriously, you've seen demonstrated? Interesting. Since you are a bible scholar you have to be aware that fire is symbolic of total destruction throughout the scriptures.

You quoted Rev 20:14. How do you throw death and hades into the lake of fire? The meaning is clear, it says it means the second death. That means there is no hope of a resurrection.

You quoted Rev 20:13 also. The sea gave up the dead, as did hell and hades, TO BE JUDGED. This is referring to the resurrection.

If everyone goes to heaven or hell when they die, why is the resurrection even mentioned in the scriptures? Remember the scriptures say there will be a resurrection of the righteous AND the unrighteous.

You really need to look at the context of the scriptures and how they relate to other scriptures. They are all in harmony.


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## tngbmt

> You really need to look at the context of the scriptures and how they relate to other scriptures. They are all in harmony.


this much i'll agree. using truism as a closure, nice.


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## TrueblueTexican

*I will leave this conversation*

With Matthew 10:14, and Second Timothy 4.

I will defend Christ - not the author of Lies.


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## jimk

In 1 & 2 Corinthians, Paul does a masterful job of explaining the resurrection of the imperishable body...and "away from the body and at home with the LORD."
Look for it....you'll find it.


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## WillieT

Paul was referring to the anointed. 

Why does the bible refer to two different classes, the anointed, also know as the bride of Christ and the little flock, which is one class. The other is the great crowd. 

They have two different callings, but one master.


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## jimk

As Paul said....and this would look good on a nursery door...."we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed."


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## KeeperTX

*Is it possible that there are not 2 classes?*

Could it be possible that Jesus was referring to Gentiles here? Since He spoke these words to the Jews during His ministry. And it wasn't until after His ascension that He commanded His disciples to preach to the Gentiles.

*â€œI have other sheep which are not of this fold. These too I must bring and the two will become one flock, one shepherd.â€ NWT

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." KJV*

*disclaimer
I am not a bible scholar or theologian.


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## WillieT

KeeperTX said:


> Could it be possible that Jesus was referring to Gentiles here? Since He spoke these words to the Jews during His ministry. And it wasn't until after His ascension that He commanded His disciples to preach to the Gentiles.
> 
> *â€œI have other sheep which are not of this fold. These too I must bring and the two will become one flock, one shepherd.â€ NWT
> 
> "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." KJV*
> 
> *disclaimer
> I am not a bible scholar or theologian.


He is not speaking of the Gentiles. He is speaking of the anointed, or heavenly class, and the great crowd, the earthly class.

Luke 12:32 32â€¯â€œHave no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom. 
This is referring to the small group "bought from the earth" that will rule with Jesus in heaven." Rev 20:4-6 4â€¯And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5â€¯(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6â€¯Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.
These are also referred to as the 144,000.
Rev 7:4 4â€¯And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

The great crowd are those who have an earthly calling, or their resurrection will be back to earth, where God put man to live. He could have put man in the heavens, but he created the earth for man to live on. 
Rev 7:9,10 9â€¯After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10â€¯And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: â€œSalvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.â€
These are the "other sheep, not of this fold that" that John was speaking of. He was addressing the anointed of God, those that would receive the heavenly calling.


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## KeeperTX

*What Paul says in Ephesians*

proves that Jew and Gentile were reconciled through Christ.

*Ephesians 2*
12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus *you who once were far away have been brought near* by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who *has made the two groups one* and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to *create in himself one new humanity out of the two*, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to *reconcile both of them* to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we *both have access to the Father by one Spirit*.


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## WillieT

KeeperTX said:


> proves that Jew and Gentile were reconciled through Christ.
> 
> *Ephesians 2*
> 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus *you who once were far away have been brought near* by the blood of Christ.
> 
> 14 For he himself is our peace, who *has made the two groups one* and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to *create in himself one new humanity out of the two*, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to *reconcile both of them* to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we *both have access to the Father by one Spirit*.


We are speaking of two different things entirely. He was speaking to those who came out of pagan nations, telling them they had to be reconciled to God. Not the same as the message John was speaking of, and that is confirmed in Revelation.


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## jimk

I need to pray harder.


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## atcfisherman

Shaggy is why I left this form for so long. He is deceived and evil. But the most disheartening thing is he is so ingrained I. ThenJW and watchtower teachings for so long, that it doesn't matter about truth to him. It only matters to defend thenJW organization and watchtower at all cost. 

A sign of intelligence is willing to listen to other points of view, read over all data, and then make a decision. He refuses to do this because of his pride and the JW organization disowning him just for even questioning their ways. 

I will bow out of this and the food for soul as long as he stays. Even if there were any validity to anything he might say, his demeanor and argumentative attitude is enough to push anyone away. He enjoys arguing with anyone and strives to do so without listening to the other side. I see him avoiding so many scriptures, but yet cherry picking certain scriptures that the JW organization and watchtower society has shown their followers to build any doctrine they want and that doctrine has changed many times since their inception. 

He can say all he wants about the Internet, but if anyone wants to look back at the watchtower magazine and see all the contradictions through the years and failed prophecies, the case is clear. The watchtower magazines are out there from back to the early 1900's and are easily accessible. So if he had s problem with what they say, then he is damming his beloved group. 

Peace too all who try to show him the way, but he will find out the truth about hell if he doesn't turn. He will get to tell God, "but it was supposed to be symbolic!" 

And shaggy, do not PM me again or I will notify the moderator of your harassment. You are even an embarrassment to the JW organization based on your actions. Just plain evil and lost as a goose. My God have mercy on your soul. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## KeeperTX

shaggydog said:


> We are speaking of two different things entirely. He was speaking to those who came out of pagan nations, telling them they had to be reconciled to God. Not the same as the message John was speaking of, and that is confirmed in Revelation.


I'm gonna ask you a sincere question shaggydog. Have you ever been wrong when it comes to spiritual matters? What if you're wrong? I know you're probably not wrong, but what if you are? Because I have been wrong before; more than once. And I really believed I was right and would not budge. So have you ever been wrong before?


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