# Btw fyi



## brucevannguyen (Oct 21, 2012)

I started to us super unleaded gas on my boat motor and gain an extra 7mph. I guess when pay cheap you get cheap. No more cheap gas for my motor any more.


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## goodable (Feb 27, 2015)

7 mph is a lot! What's your top speed?


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## kellisag (Feb 18, 2010)

Wow, 7MPH increase is pretty substantial.

Did you have your boat loaded differently than normal? Not necessarily just total weight but where you put the weight can make a big difference in boat performance. Also if you are comparing numbers from the summer to the winter you will always have better performance in the winter with cooler water temperatures(ie: water is more dense).


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## brucevannguyen (Oct 21, 2012)

Don't know if its the summer winter effect but I just know it accelerate remarkably different than since I bought it new. And it's not even a 100hrs yet. I think the better octane in the super unleaded bring out its true performance that it was built for. Kinda Mercedes cars. They void the warranty if you use regular unleaded. I ain't never going back to regular unleaded no more. Everything still loaded the same way. And the water surfce was not completely smooth when I took notice. Thought to my self what a pussy this motor performance is. 24-26mph is all it will do. Now it's pushing 30+. I got a 50hp 2015 Tohatsu motor. What's the norm mph for a 50hp ???


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## Jimmy Blue (Nov 20, 2013)

Bruce where are you buying your gas?

And not to hijack the thread but does anyone know where to buy Ethanol free gas in the Livingston area (other than Browders.... I'm looking for something near the hiway).


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## brucevannguyen (Oct 21, 2012)

Jimmy I'm strictly a shell gasoline guy. Wish we have one at every lakes. Browders is where I get my non ethanol.


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## trihullranger (Dec 19, 2015)

I am running an old 1978 Johnson 150. She likes the 93 and if I could find jet fuel I bet she would really love that.


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## whsalum (Mar 4, 2013)

It won't bother a motor with lower hours on it but you may wanna be careful on the older motors. They may not stay together with the jet fuel LOL


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## BobBobber (Aug 29, 2015)

Nary a drop of alcohol has passed into my 50hp Yamaha 4-stroke. Mechanics always exclaim how the fuel filter and carb are so clean. It's worth the trip to Browders. We drive there to bring back a full tank in the boat plus several more gas cans full.

When we lived near Corpus Christi, there were more places to buy real gas. L&M, Rudy's and a few scattered marinas.

Harris and Montgomery Counties cannot sell the good stuff, so we drive to Browders.


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## brucevannguyen (Oct 21, 2012)

Yep you tell em whsalum. It's like an 80 year old man taking Viagra. LOL!!!


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## Beaux (Oct 11, 2012)

I run a 2001 50hp Mer with an 11p 3 blade stainless. My top speed loaded solo is around 35mph. Boat is a 17x54 tracker welded jon. I noticed a difference in hole shot and overall performance when using premium fuels. I normally have 3-4 people, dog, decoys and equipment, plus all the normal boat stuff ie anchors exc. It will typicall max out around 33mph then. When gas was up there I would fill with regular unleaded and then put additives in the fuel such as Seafoam, or B12 Chemtool. If you buy those additives in larger quantities they are cheaper over all and you stretch out the long term use. 

At one time I had a couple of 5gal can full of avgas we bought to run in our WWII jeep and mixing that in a 3-1 mix with regular unleaded ran great. Back then avgas as around $8 a gallon and we could get it at the local airfield, pay at the pump.


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## saved (Feb 1, 2014)

I run the pure gas instead of ethanol and still run regular and get good results. I use Conoco. 
In my vehicles it gives me about 10% better MPG.


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## saved (Feb 1, 2014)

trihullranger said:


> I am running an old 1978 Johnson 150. She likes the 93 and if I could find jet fuel I bet she would really love that.


 I would not recommend Jet Fuel.
*Jet fuel* is a clear to straw-colored *fuel*, based on either an unleaded kerosene (*Jet* A-1), or a naphtha-kerosene blend (*Jet* B). It is similar to diesel *fuel*, and can be used in either compression ignition engines or turbine engines.

However if you want higher octane Browder's sells racing fuel with very high octane. If I may let me point out that octane has nothing to do with more power. Octane only changes the detonation range. There is not more power in a gallon of 93 octane gas verses 87 octane gas of the same type. To get more power from a fuel it takes a different type or blend. 
http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/more-octane-more-power-mythbusters


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## BobBobber (Aug 29, 2015)

saved said:


> I run the pure gas instead of ethanol and still run regular and get good results. I use Conoco.
> In my vehicles it gives me about 10% better MPG.


Where do you buy it?


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## BobBobber (Aug 29, 2015)

brucevannguyen said:


> Yep you tell em whsalum. It's like an 80 year old man taking Viagra. LOL!!!


Yeh, but the only problem with aging is that when you find something you used in the past, then you sometimes can't remember where you put it the last time before you lost it.:rotfl:


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

trihullranger said:


> I am running an old 1978 Johnson 150. She likes the 93 and if I could find jet fuel I bet she would really love that.


Unless you have a diesel, jet fuel is highly refined kerosene. JP-4 Military) fuel) would be explosive in an internal combustion engine.


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## Bankin' On It (Feb 14, 2013)

I am primarily a Shell gas user myself Bruce. I only use the highest octane in my motor. It just plain runs and idles better...the way it's supposed to. Now, having said that, I also used to fill up my 35 gallon tank and keep it topped off so no air gaps existed. I was told this would help prevent evaporation and separation. 

Fast forward to last fall when my boat started running terribly. I took it to the shop and they ID the fuel as the issue. Even though I burned about 6 - 10 gallons on each outing just running around...and then topped that back off...the gas still separated and the amount of water they poured into a glass container to show me was downright offensive.

The mechanic drained the fuel and said that the high octane fuel has a tendency to evaporate faster and separate so he recommended that I try a lower octane if I was going to keep it full. Well, my motor doesn't run well on lower octane so now I just keep about 1-2 gallons in it (whatever is left over from the previous trip) and put 6-12 gallons in of high octane when I go to fish. So far so good.


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## saved (Feb 1, 2014)

BobBobber said:


> Where do you buy it?


 I haul it in from Buna Texas. I have two 55 gallon tanks and other 5 and 6 gallon gas cans I can use. If anyone tries this please be advised that the law states that to haul gas the max allowable amount in a tank has to be under 119 gallons without hazard signs and a permit. 
Here is their location;

*Cougar Stop - CONOCO
*35073 Us Hwy 96 S, Buna TX
409-994-9830
Ethanol-free octane ratings: *87 89 93 *
GPS coordinates: *N 30.44151 W 93.96936*


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## whsalum (Mar 4, 2013)

That's where I buy mine Saved, you gotta be careful and look at the pump because you'll get sticker shock if you fill up your vehicle there LOL


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## housewolf (Nov 24, 2014)

saved said:


> There is not more power in a gallon of 93 octane gas verses 87 octane gas of the same type. To get more power from a fuel it takes a different type or blend.
> http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/more-octane-more-power-mythbusters


Correct. Traditionally; higher octane fuel, racing fuel, E85 (yes 85% ethanol) etc.. allows you to run more timing and/or higher compression ratio both of which DO make more power, with less risk of detonation.

However "direct injection" (injecting the fuel directly into the combustion chamber) changes the game _some_. We're seeing 3L (automotive) engines spinning up to 7K with 10.5:1 CR making 300 hp burning regular (87) fuel. < Unheard of in the "golden years" of hot rodding.


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## rringstaff (Jul 25, 2014)

saved said:


> I would not recommend Jet Fuel.
> *Jet fuel* is a clear to straw-colored *fuel*, based on either an unleaded kerosene (*Jet* A-1), or a naphtha-kerosene blend (*Jet* B). It is similar to diesel *fuel*, and can be used in either compression ignition engines or turbine engines.
> 
> However if you want higher octane Browder's sells racing fuel with very high octane. If I may let me point out that octane has nothing to do with more power. Octane only changes the detonation range. There is not more power in a gallon of 93 octane gas verses 87 octane gas of the same type. To get more power from a fuel it takes a different type or blend.
> http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/more-octane-more-power-mythbusters


So my 5.9L in my lifted 4x4 is not getting 30mpg?


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

These type of threads are interesting to me. My opinions are:

Octane is not the same as power. Higher octane is needed as compression ratio goes up and spark is more advanced. But, if your engine never knocks on 87 octane, then 93 octane will not give more power.

Higher quality detergent or additive packages may make your engine run better in the long run because the engine is cleaner and less likely to be gunked up inside fuel passages or injectors. This means that over a period of time, you may be better off with Shell or Chevron 87 octane than Race Trac 93 octane due to the better additives in tier 3 gasoline.

There is significant difference in boat performance due to water temperature. The better performance is in cooler water.

Energy in fuel is measured by BTU's. This does equate to power. Ethanol has lower BTU value than real gasoline. So, real or true gasoline will give more power than gasoline with 10% ethanol. 

In general, as fuel gets thicker, heavier, oilier or however you want to describe it, the BTU value goes up. Diesel has a greater BTU value than gasoline. Jet fuel is similar to kerosene.

Whereas water has a boiling point, fuels are classified by boiling range. There is some range overlap of the classifications, so a refinery has some latitude as to how much diesel versus jet fuel versus gasoline they can refine from a barrel of crude. Taking advantage of this allows a refinery to produce what is most valuable at that time, depending on demand and even what portions of another refinery may be down for maintenance.

Pressure affects boiling point or range. Higher pressure requires higher heat to boil; which is why a pressure cooker cooks faster. Some towers in refineries are operated under a partial vacuum to allow separation of oil at lower temperatures. 

Last but not least, my opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them. :rotfl:


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## housewolf (Nov 24, 2014)

This particular topic is interesting to me as well since I tune and race my own naturally aspirated electronic fuel injection car. I know the hate for ethanol blends here so I won't stay on my soapbox long 

And I do concede there are disadvantages with ethanol and ethanol blended fuels, but lack of power isn't one of them.



Whitebassfisher said:


> Energy in fuel is measured by BTU's. This does equate to power. Ethanol has lower BTU value than real gasoline. So, real or true gasoline will give more power than gasoline with 10% ethanol.


Per volume unit, this is correct_ but_, gasoline containing ethanol has a lower stoichiometric (they burn more of it). E85 is 9.71:1, E10 (what most of us buy at the pump) is 14.1:1 and ethanol free gasoline should be 14.7:1. This more than offsets the lower energy per unit. The net energy released per cycle is higher with ethanol blended fuel.

Copied & pasted:


> For example, if a pound of gasoline is burned at its preferred max power air fuel mixture of 12.5/1, it will release approximately 19,000 BTUâ€™s of energy, where ethanol run at its preferred power stoichiometric of 6.5/1* will release approximately 24,400 BTUâ€™s.


*The stoich numbers I gave above were true stoich which is idle or steady state. The air fuel ratio numbers in the quote are for "max power"/wide open throttle and _not usually_ referred to as stoichiometric.


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## brucevannguyen (Oct 21, 2012)

WOW!! You guys really getting this down to the sciecne/numbers. Keep it coming. Pretty interesting.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

house wolf said:


> Per volume unit, this is correct_ but_, gasoline containing ethanol has a lower stoichiometric (they burn more of it). E85 is 9.71:1, E10 (what most of us buy at the pump) is 14.1:1 and ethanol free gasoline should be 14.7:1. This more than offsets the lower energy per unit. The net energy released per cycle is higher with ethanol blended fuel.


Isn't it true that pure ethanol only has 2/3's as much energy per gallon as pure gasoline? So, to get more power in your race car, you have to burn 50% more pure ethanol than pure gasoline? I don't doubt that, but don't see how it applies to our fishing boats unless a race shop re-designs the outboard for ethanol and we are willing to fill up a lot more often. :headknock


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## saved (Feb 1, 2014)

Ethanol is a loser for many reasons, and the amount of watered needed to get one gallon is just one.
http://gazette.com/the-water-and-corn-cost-for-a-gallon-of-ethanol/article/1506579


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## housewolf (Nov 24, 2014)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Isn't it true that pure ethanol only has 2/3's as much energy per gallon as pure gasoline? So, to get more power in your race car, you have to burn 50% more pure ethanol than pure gasoline? I don't doubt that, but don't see how it applies to our fishing boats unless a race shop re-designs the outboard for ethanol and we are willing to fill up a lot more often. :headknock


Yes it takes more ethanol to achieve an optimum burn (stoich) than gas or E10. The difference between E10 & E85 is significant. As far as outboards or any other *fuel injected* internal combustion engine; the fact of the matter is, you _aren't going to get more power_ by using an ethanol free gas, _you'll get slightly less_ (but burn slightly less fuel). Likely you wouldn't notice either.

The O2 sensors detect if the engine is running rich or lean, the engine control module then calculates how long to hold the injectors open thus how much fuel is going into the combustion chamber. The O2 sensors are looking for "a condition" (stoich). The difference between E10 & ethanol free gas is so small it's within the range the sensors can detect and the ECM can adjust for.

FWIW, I run E10 in my car (probably same as you do). The expense of moving that much E85 isn't worth it in my case. Larger fuel pump, larger injectors, etc...

The _only point_ I was trying to make is:


house wolf said:


> ...there _are_ disadvantages with ethanol and ethanol blended fuels, but lack of power isn't one of them.


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## saved (Feb 1, 2014)

house wolf said:


> Yes it takes more ethanol to achieve an optimum burn (stoich) than gas or E10. The difference between E10 & E85 is significant. As far as outboards or any other *fuel injected* internal combustion engine; the fact of the matter is, you _aren't going to get more power_ by using an ethanol free gas, _you'll get slightly less_ (but burn slightly less fuel). Likely you wouldn't notice either.
> 
> The O2 sensors detect if the engine is running rich or lean, the engine control module then calculates how long to hold the injectors open thus how much fuel is going into the combustion chamber. The O2 sensors are looking for "a condition" (stoich). The difference between E10 & ethanol free gas is so small it's within the range the sensors can detect and the ECM can adjust for.
> 
> ...


No disrespect but how do you figure you get less power from pure gas than ethanol when ethanol has a lower BTU value?


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## housewolf (Nov 24, 2014)

saved said:


> No disrespect but how do you figure you get less power from pure gas than ethanol when ethanol has a lower BTU value?


No problem. I've probably done a less than stellar job explaining it. I really got into this stuff a couple of years ago when I was considering E85 in my race car. I understand it well enough, apparently I suck at explaining it 
And at this point, it appears I've made a mountain out of a molehill, but although the difference is minuscule, you do get _less _power with ethanol free fuel. Never more.

if a pound of *gasoline* is burned at its preferred max power air fuel mixture of *12.5/1*, it will release approximately *19,000 BTUâ€™s* of energy, where *ethanol* run at its preferred power stoichiometric of *6.5/1** will release approximately *24,400 BTUâ€™s*. It's going to burn a pound of (pure) ethanol almost twice as fast as a pound of gas.



house wolf said:


> ... gasoline containing ethanol has a lower stoichiometric *(they burn more of it)*. E85 is 9.71:1, E10 (what most of us buy at the pump) is 14.1:1 and ethanol free gasoline should be 14.7:1 (AFR - air fuel ratio).* This more than offsets the lower energy per unit. The net energy released per cycle is higher with ethanol blended fuel*.





house wolf said:


> The O2 sensors detect if the engine is running rich or lean, the engine control module then calculates how long to hold the injectors open thus how much fuel is going into the combustion chamber. The O2 sensors are looking for "a condition" (stoich). The difference between E10 & ethanol free gas is so small it's within the range the sensors can detect and the ECM can adjust for.


With an ethanol blend (E10) your engine will adjust/add the amount of fuel needed to reach stoich.

Short of hacking the engine control module (which is what we do "tuning" EFI), we don't get to choose our air fuel ratio. The computer will adjust for whatever is optimum for that blend (E10ish). You'll burn more fuel but make more power.


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## saved (Feb 1, 2014)

house wolf said:


> No problem. I've probably done a less than stellar job explaining it. I really got into this stuff a couple of years ago when I was considering E85 in my race car. I understand it well enough, apparently I suck at explaining it
> And at this point, it appears I've made a mountain out of a molehill, but although the difference is minuscule, you do get _less _power with ethanol free fuel. Never more.
> 
> if a pound of *gasoline* is burned at its preferred max power air fuel mixture of *12.5/1*, it will release approximately *19,000 BTUâ€™s* of energy, where *ethanol* run at its preferred power stoichiometric of *6.5/1** will release approximately *24,400 BTUâ€™s*. It's going to burn a pound of (pure) ethanol almost twice as fast as a pound of gas.
> ...


No disrespect but I am afraid I disagree with your calculations. They are apples and oranges. While a pound is a pound not all pounds are the same in volumetric size.

1 gallon of gasoline equals 5.8 to 6.5 lbs depending on its temperature.
1 gallon of ethanol equals 6.59 lbs. so by weight you always get more in volume with ethanol which means you cannot compare the two by weight because you always have less gas to burn.

So if you use the pound as a way to extrapolate the energy/power output of ethanol against gas you are cheating because you are not burning as much gas. Gallon to gallon Gas always wins in energy/power output under the same parameter.

One US _*gallon*_ of gasoline contains 114,000 _*BTU*_ of energy; ... It takes one and a half US _*gallons of ethanol*_ to equal the energy in one US gallon.

That means it is impossible to get more energy/power out of the same amount of ethanol.
http://alternativefuels.about.com/od/resources/a/gge.htm

Now what can happen is a particular engine may not be able to extract all the power in gasoline because of its design, timing, compression, and so on, but at no time will ethanol produce more energy than the same amount of gas under the same circumstance. Gas always has more energy capabilities by volume.

A simple example. If I use pure gas in a vehicle and go 30 miles on a gallon and then switch to 10% ethanol and go only 28.5 miles on a gallon I went the furthest on the gas because of more energy, not less energy. Pure gas produces better MPG because of more energy/power received.


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## housewolf (Nov 24, 2014)

saved said:


> That means it is impossible to get more energy/power out of the *same amount* of ethanol.


Agreed.


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## Mckeeman (Nov 6, 2013)

Not sure what the op facts come from but, my knowledge with boat motor is all about RPM. If my motor max out at 5,000 rpm w/ 87 octane, it's Not going to 6,000rpm with 93 octane. The only ways you're increasing rpm is trimming the motor up more or getting a prop with less pitch..... Higher rpm higher speed , higher octane does not mean higher speed


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

When race cars are involved, basically any budget is thrown out the window. In a way, racing goes against common sense, but many people, myself included, like acceleration and speed.

I _think_, but don't know, that another way to word *house wolf* 's posts is:

Since the optimum air/fuel ratio is lower for ethanol than gasoline, and you are dealing with a naturally aspirated engine, then it follows that you can burn a lot more ethanol than you can gasoline in a given engine. In a race car, you don't care how much fuel you burn. A race car has a different priority than a standard car. Yes, you burn twice as much ethanol maybe, but you were able to produce a little more power. Possibly another way to think is that a naturally aspirated engine is limited on how much air (oxygen) it can take in, so you use ethanol instead of gasoline, because ethanol doesn't require as much air as gasoline does. The fuel pump and injectors and computer can burn roughly twice as much fuel that way and keep the air/fuel ratio right.

But does this apply to the OP? :headknock


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## Gofish2day (May 9, 2006)

I guess I will chime in !!!

I have a close friend who works for Chevron who laughed at me every time I used stabile. He stated Chevron did years of testing. He works in the fuel additives division. The new Ethanol fuels using Chevron Additives do not separate. I use Chevron only in my boat with a 35gal tank and have zero problems. I also stopped using stabile. I do change my fuel filter twice a year. I use the one sized like a car oil filter which separates water. This is a must with ethanol fuels. I think $35 at academy.

*The most important thing is to not mix your fuels. Stick with one fuel.* If you mix, you are causing a science experiment in your fuel tank. Who knows what all those chemicals will do. Same thing with adding Stabile. Stick with one fuel and nothing else.

Texaco also uses Chevron additives if in a bind.

For the car, use anything if you use it often.

I think all fuels will separate but I have had great luck with Chevron. Sometimes I go to Conroe just to burn some fuel off and get in a little fishin.


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## saved (Feb 1, 2014)

Gofish2day said:


> I guess I will chime in !!!
> 
> I have a close friend who works for Chevron who laughed at me every time I used stabile. He stated Chevron did years of testing. He works in the fuel additives division. The new Ethanol fuels using Chevron Additives do not separate. I use Chevron only in my boat with a 35gal tank and have zero problems. I also stopped using stabile. I do change my fuel filter twice a year. I use the one sized like a car oil filter which separates water. This is a must with ethanol fuels. I think $35 at academy.
> 
> ...


 Interesting. If he is right I wonder why they never run adds promoting their fuel as to never separate and never needing anything like sta-bil? You would think such a claim would really boost their sales.


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## housewolf (Nov 24, 2014)

Whitebassfisher said:


> When race cars are involved, basically any budget is thrown out the window. In a way, racing goes against common sense


On that, I'm sure even my wife will agree. In fact she explains this to me often. I still have issues buying in sometimes even though I know she's right:headknock

You did an excellent job explaining what I was trying to say. Thank you.

My comments weren't directed so much to the OP but more so toward subsequent post discussing the evils of ethanol blended fuels.

To the OP; you may be comparing your boat's performance in cooler, more dense air to running in the warmer air in the summer. I'll refrain from attempting to go into that but if you are interested; Google - air density or density altitude. We can have a difference as much as 3K' here from the dog days of summer to a cool day in the fall or winter. Certainly enough to tell a "seat of the pants" difference.

Merry Christmas guys!


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