# Super Ultralight Spoons from Fly Rod



## Kyron1971

First there was Daiwa Presso Vega Spoons and now I found

http://www.naburaya.jp/products_reiku.html

My 5wt has had mixed results casting the .6 and .8 gram Daiwa Presso Vega Spoons.

Perhaps a 3wt for these .3g lures.


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## Permit Rat

I dunno.....but I sort of draw the line where those spoon "flies" are concerned. I know I am old and set in my ways, but it seems to me that a fly should _ideally_ be made with feathers, hair and other natural materials. I remember feeling the same way when epoxy flies first came out and permit started to fall in greater numbers. I vowed never to use epoxy flies and to this day have not, although I think I have some bonefish epoxies that someone gave me and I'm too cheap to throw them away. LOL... But epoxy flies were the true catalyst toward me developing the Permit Rat in the first place. It has a lot of lead in it, but lead has been used to sink flies since the colonial days and maybe before then, so I guess that's simply my justification.

It's the age old question of when are we throwing jigs and lures, and not flies anymore? No doubt, once they're in the water and being retrieved, there's NO doubt as to their effectiveness. I don't (and never would) look down on those who choose to use epoxies and spoons, just as I do not look down on folks who use 20 lb. tippets, even though I never have. I believe some fish just weren't meant to be taken on fly tackle and that's just me. Sorry for the rant.

PS.....I am not alone in this assessment, but we few are all old and will be gone soon, so take heart.


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## Popperdave

I agree with permit, a spoon is a lure not a fly. If you choose to throw lures with your fly rod that's ok,but don't call it a fly. Flies are made from hair,feathers, fiber natural or synthetic, and tread. Yes they can have plastic/metal eyes and rubber legs but they should mostly be made of these types of materials. Yes i fish foam body poppers, but that's because I am too lazy to spin deer hair and have perch destroy them in 5 minutes. But I call them poppers not flies or "popper flies"
So if you want to use a spoon that's fine but if you want to be true to the sport use a real fly. It's not how many fish you catch it's how you catch them.


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## Kyron1971

A lot of the old time fly books talk about casting small spoons and jigs with fly rods. Seems to be a practice that stopped in the 50's. I know it is still current practice in Japan, Italy, Belgium, most of the old Eastern Block Countries.


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## Bruce J

Itâ€™s just one of those things where we all draw the line somewhere, but there is no â€œrightâ€ answer. Iâ€™m in the camp that is okay with spoon flies. I think if the fly (or whatever you call it) is light enough to be cast conventionally with a fly rod, then thatâ€™s fly fishing. The joy to me is in the cast and presentation and sight fishing and I really donâ€™t care as much about what is tied to the end of the leader. 

I was â€œfly fishingâ€in Alaska one Day many years ago with about four large split shot on the leader with a streamer of some kind to try to catch some red salmon. It was sight casting and we did use a fly rod, but to me it was just lead slinging and ducking, and I couldnt call it fly fishing.


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## 2thDr

*Traditionalist*

So how far back should we go before we consider it flyfishing? Bamboo rods and dry flies only? Guy has found something that works and is sharing info. Like bowhunting with modern equipment, I think anything that gets people interested in my favorite sport is a win. Bruce is right about "chuck n duck" with an indicator rig, split shot and nymph being about catching fish as opposed to classic casting of a flyline, but it gets people on the water with a rod. I fear backlash when I admit that I've developed a crab pattern using a Fishbites body, rubber legs, grizzly hackle claws and lead eyes that hammers tough fish such as drum, sheepshead, and even my first permit on a flyrod. BTW, Dick Nite fly spoons and flyrod Johnson Silver Minnows have been around for decades. I do enjoy following this forum and have found much useful information, especially about travel destinations. You guys have certainly been around.


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## Permit Rat

Bruce J said:


> Itâ€™s just one of those things where we all draw the line somewhere, but there is no â€œrightâ€ answer. *Iâ€™m in the camp that is okay with spoon flies. I think if the fly (or whatever you call it) is light enough to be cast conventionally with a fly rod, then thatâ€™s fly fishing.* The joy to me is in the cast and presentation and sight fishing and I really donâ€™t care as much about what is tied to the end of the leader.
> 
> I was â€œfly fishingâ€in Alaska one Day many years ago with about four large split shot on the leader with a streamer of some kind to try to catch some red salmon. It was sight casting and we did use a fly rod, but to me it was just lead slinging and ducking, and I couldnt call it fly fishing.


There is a lot of merit to this too. I have seen guys in the Ozarks, casting crappie sized jigs and spinner baits with fly rods for white bass. Why not?


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## ifsteve

I love this discussion and have been in many of them. The best point is that only each individual can decide on what is a "fly" to them. 

I think Idaho has really gotten it correct with their definition in the regs and of course it only applies to "fly fishing only" waters.

They simply say if it is the fly line that is used to cast the "fly" then its a fly. If the "fly" is such that it can't be cast on its own without adding additional weight (weight, bobber, etc) then its legit for fly only.

As pointed out already, its is very difficult to really define where to draw any line. Go to England where there are places that floating lines and dry flies are the ONLY allowed method to be considered fly fishing.


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## ifsteve

BTW here is the definition of a fly from IGFA. 

"The fly must be a recognized type of artificial fly, which includes streamer, bucktail,
tube fly, wet fly, dry fly, nymph, popper and bug. The use of any other type of lure
or natural or preserved bait, either singularly or attached to the fly, is expressly prohibited. Only a single fly is allowed. Dropper flies are prohibited. The fact that a lure
can be cast with a fly rod is not evidence in itself that it fits the definition of a fly. The
use of any lure designed to entangle or foul hook a fish is prohibited. No scent, either
natural or artificial is allowed on flies. The use of scented material in a fly is prohibited."

Thats hardly cut and dried. I always found it interesting that they prohibit the use of two flies. I almost always use a two fly rig when fishing stillwaters. And have gone to Pyramid Lake to try and catch a tippet class cutt on fly but had to remember to not use a second fly.


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## Joe. T.

ive seen more epoxy and glue on some mullet or sand eel flies than spoon flies.


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## Joe. T.

ive used these on black drum for many years and they work great


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## karstopo

I havenâ€™t ever gotten into using spoon flies. Iâ€™ve got a few that someone else made, but I just didnâ€™t connect with casting and fishing them so they just sit in the box. I made a few spoon flies way back when and didnâ€™t like fishing those either. 

Some flies are just more fun to fish. I like how they move or look in the water. Maybe I enjoy tying them so I fish them more. Itâ€™s not like there arenâ€™t a bunch of options. Pick whatever pattern or patterns you enjoy fishing and go with that. If thatâ€™s a spoon fly, have a blast using that.


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## salty_waders

I was in the "no spoon fly boat" a few years ago. One morning I was casting to some reds and couldn't get them to eat. I had a spoon fly in my box and tied it on after trying everything else. They hammered it. I'm still not a big fan but fish love em.


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## RUFcaptain

A spoon fly is absolutely a fly, no different than a crab pattern or a lead eyed clouser , and they work great! I always take one with me no matter where I go.


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## Fishsurfer

Yep you catch 4 spotted redfish with spoon lures. So does a fly rod have to have snake guides on it to be a fly rod? I am just trying to figure the rules out. And what about those rubber legs that are getting tied on everything? I'm pretty sure those rubber legs on that spoon fly that's good for black drum is against the rules. LOL


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## Anderson Guide Service

When I was younger I threw spoon flies, but they did not have the same action as a real weedless spoon. You just can't strip fast enough and they don't weigh enough to replicate the real thing. I look at it as spoons are for rod and reel and they work great for that. When it comes to fly fishing, you really can't replicate them and why would you? If you want to catch fish throwing a spoon then throw conventional tackle. Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just my thoughts.


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## karstopo

Fishsurfer said:


> Yep you catch 4 spotted redfish with spoon lures. So does a fly rod have to have snake guides on it to be a fly rod? I am just trying to figure the rules out. And what about those rubber legs that are getting tied on everything? I'm pretty sure those rubber legs on that spoon fly that's good for black drum is against the rules. LOL


On another fly fishing forum, thereâ€™s a big hubbub about using scents on flies. I havenâ€™t used any, but fish with whatever you want if itâ€™s legal. There seems to be a strong â€œholier than thouâ€ current in fly fishing. Spoons, scents, nymphs under an indicator, dries, streamers that look like a bad acid trip, use them if it makes you happy.


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## Meadowlark

Much ado about nothing. People will argue about anything and everything. 

The only rule that has any meaning in these debates is to have fun. Whatever increases your enjoyment of fly fishing, within the law, is fine.

Leave the mindless debates to the mindless...and enjoy fly fishing.


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## RUFcaptain

Couple points about fishing a spoon fly , always use a loop knot , short quick strips with a pause. The Horbey spoon fly is the best one, it has a concave shape and a titanium weed guard, works best in shallow water if deeper let it sink first.


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## Joe. T.

Anderson Guide Service said:


> When I was younger I threw spoon flies, but they did not have the same action as a real weedless spoon. You just can't strip fast enough and they don't weigh enough to replicate the real thing. I look at it as spoons are for rod and reel and they work great for that. When it comes to fly fishing, you really can't replicate them and why would you? If you want to catch fish throwing a spoon then throw conventional tackle. Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just my thoughts.


 not all spoon flies are not made to strip fast or made to replicate action like a johnston minnow they just have the same shape and if made right a wobble. like i said i use these when black drum have lock jaw and wont hit dilly. they love this thing because it replicates a small crab and will pick it up off the bottom. js


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## Joe. T.

karstopo said:


> On another fly fishing forum, thereâ€™s a big hubbub about using scents on flies. I havenâ€™t used any, but fish with whatever you want if itâ€™s legal. There seems to be a strong â€œholier than thouâ€ current in fly fishing. Spoons, scents, nymphs under an indicator, dries, streamers that look like a bad acid trip, use them if it makes you happy.


this^^^^^^


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## Anderson Guide Service

Joe. T. said:


> not all spoon flies are not made to strip fast or made to replicate action like a johnston minnow they just have the same shape and if made right a wobble. like i said i use these when black drum have lock jaw and wont hit dilly. they love this thing because it replicates a small crab and will pick it up off the bottom. js


I stand corrected. I was thinking in terms of redfish.


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## ifsteve

I do not know anybody who considers putting scent on a fly to be "fly fishing." Nobody. If its legal and you want to do it go right ahead. But don't post up hero shots telling people you were fly fishing. Certainly setting definitions is a slipper slope and a personal one but at some point lets call a spade a spade. That isn't fly fishing.


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## Joe. T.

ifsteve said:


> I do not know anybody who considers putting scent on a fly to be "fly fishing." Nobody. If its legal and you want to do it go right ahead. But don't post up hero shots telling people you were fly fishing. Certainly setting definitions is a slipper slope and a personal one but at some point lets call a spade a spade. That isn't fly fishing.


i dont know anybody that puts scent on a fly...... who does this?


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## karstopo

Joe. T. said:


> i dont know anybody that puts scent on a fly...... who does this?


People were talking about it on another fly fishing forum. I guess a few people do scent some flies. Seems like it was a couple of steelhead fly guys that do the scents occasionally. Putting scents on a fly or just the idea of it did upset some of the people on the other forum. I guess itâ€™s illegal in some places. I never have put scents on a fly. I couldnâ€™t stand gulp and the other scented baits or products because they stink. This is back when I did a lot of lure fishing with baitcasting gear.

I think it would be counterproductive or unnecessary to scent a pattern in the saltwater around here. Might run the risk of attracting a stingray or hardhead and who wants those? Not me. It doesnâ€™t bother me if someone wants to spray some goofy stinky juice on their crab pattern or whatever, but scented lures and flies arenâ€™t for me.


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## RUFcaptain

Iâ€™ve seen similar done for sharks, put a small strip of meat on a big red fly and strip in as fast as you can, black tips go crazy over it. Not any different than laying down a chum slick offshore then stripping or trolling flies through it, thatâ€™s a common technique for catching Kings. Or using a teaser to attract billfish and then casting a fly. Different techniques for different fish.


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## spoonplugger1

Try Dick Nite spoons, been used on salmon, trout, and steelhead for decades on a fly rod, 8 wt. and heavier rods for medium and large spoons. They are very thin gauge spoons about same gauge as a willow leaf blade on a spinnerbait. First ice out trout that will start moving into the streams from the lake will climb all over a minnow imitation over a bug. Used my west coast gear when I first moved to Florida in the 80's, caught a surprising amount of species on salmon jigging spoons, and other gear on salmon backbouncing, and hot shot rods.


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## ifsteve

RUFcaptain said:


> Iâ€™ve seen similar done for sharks, put a small strip of meat on a big red fly and strip in as fast as you can, black tips go crazy over it. Not any different than laying down a chum slick offshore then stripping or trolling flies through it, thatâ€™s a common technique for catching Kings. Or using a teaser to attract billfish and then casting a fly. Different techniques for different fish.


Are you serious? Those things are not even in the same universe. Chumming or teasing up a fish still requires the fish to EAT the fly. Putting meat on the fly makes it bait.


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## RUFcaptain

ifsteve said:


> Are you serious? Those things are not even in the same universe. Chumming or teasing up a fish still requires the fish to EAT the fly. Putting meat on the fly makes it bait.


Have you fly fished for sharks? I first saw this done in Islamorada by a famous guide, he would use a small strip of meat, in reality just enough for scent. They still cast the fly and strip in, to me itâ€™s still a fly, albeit a scented fly. Iâ€™ve fly fished for sharks in the keys with and without the added meat, while it definitely gets them charged up, the actual numbers of fish caught is about the same.


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## ifsteve

RUFcaptain said:


> Have you fly fished for sharks? I first saw this done in Islamorada by a famous guide, he would use a small strip of meat, in reality just enough for scent. They still cast the fly and strip in, to me itâ€™s still a fly, albeit a scented fly. Iâ€™ve fly fished for sharks in the keys with and without the added meat, while it definitely gets them charged up, the actual numbers of fish caught is about the same.


Yes, I have fished for sharks. And yes in Islamorada. And yes I caught them with no bait or scent on my fly.

Everybody can fish they way that best suits them. But to me when you add bait or scent to a fly its gone beyond the spirit of fly fishing. And its certainly prohibited for any angling records.

F. FLIES
The fly must be a recognized type of artificial fly, which includes streamer, bucktail,
tube fly, wet fly, dry fly, nymph, popper and bug. The use of any other type of lure
or natural or preserved bait, either singularly or attached to the fly, is expressly prohibited.
Only a single fly is allowed. Dropper flies are prohibited. The fact that a lure
can be cast with a fly rod is not evidence in itself that it fits the definition of a fly. The
use of any lure designed to entangle or foul hook a fish is prohibited. No scent, either
natural or artificial is allowed on flies. The use of scented material in a fly is prohibited.


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## RUFcaptain

Nobody is talking about IGFA records, using a scented fly to catch a shark is just a fun way to do it, certainly a non purist technique. Actually the hard core purists believe anything except a dry fly is a lure, that means no Clousers or streamers allowed. Of course, they like to use strike indicators (aka bobbers). So there you have it, itâ€™s all good.


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## ifsteve

Yes its all good. And as long as it legal then guys can fish anyway they choose to. But nobody I know considers adding scent or bait to a fly to be fly fishing. At some point its fishing with fly tackle but its not fly fishing.

And frankly why just not use a spin rod then? Its still plenty fun too!


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