# How long is too long???



## RJustice (May 28, 2008)

I am loading for a .308 Remington 700 Varmint. It is the same rifle as the newer PSS, but with a different stock. I found that my rifle likes a longer COAL. How long is too long. I am already at 2.825" and not even close to the rifling. Much longer and they will no longer fit into my magazine. Should I load them as long as I can but keep them in the magazine or go even longer and shoot single shot? I will fix this problem with a new barrel but only after this one is warn out.


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## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

I believe you should have at least the diameter of the bullet seated in the case.
single shot is fine if you dont mind. To me seating depth makes little difference and is usually just a tweak of pressure to hit a node your gun likes.
Try this, if your gun likes long try and seat a little deeper and add .2 gr powder and try again, accuracy might come right back, seating long increases pressure so does adding powder.


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## RJustice (May 28, 2008)

*OK but...*

That sounds good, but what about the jump from the brass to the rifling? Doesn't that make a little bit of difference? This is a rifle I am planning to shoot long range. So I am going to find a powder and bullet that it likes then add powder to that load until it starts to show signs of pressure or starts to spread the group. Then I would back off a little and go with that. That is what I was told to do by a long range shooter I talked to. When I shot the rifle the other day there was about .2" difference between the loads I shot. They had the same amount of powder and bullet. The only differnece was the seating on one was 2.8" and the other was 2.825". Are you saying that this difference could be due to pressure? Combination of both or COAL?

Thanks for the info.


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## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

it can be pressure by going longer, need a chrono to confirm, but yes getting closer to lands usually always increases pressure.
try to add .2 gr to the load thats seated deeper and try it.


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## RJustice (May 28, 2008)

Chrono is at my dads house right now. I will try what you are saying as soon as I can pick it up. That way I will know exactly what is going on instead of guessing.


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## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

I quit playing with seating depth as it made little difference in a hunting rig, i seat at .03 off on every gun I load for and play with powder and charge.
Everygun will shoot any powder at some charge, group will be good at low velocity and one at high velocity with any powder, but certain powders might never reach the node needed for accuracy at the upper end because pressure signs are reached first, so your stuck with that powder shooting good at low velocity.
I play with 4 or 5 powders at the upper end and see which one works best and pick two and start tweaking charge up and down a little, if one doesnt show potential I drop it, I can get it to work by backing down and down but why would I want a weak load that works, I only work with powders my gun likes on the upper end charges.

Every gun shoots best at a certain velocity with that powder, this has proven more important than primer selection, case selection ,seating depth selection etc.
I have a load for my 7-08 using 162 gr sst, I kept adding and adding powder and it hit a spot thats tack driving, but its hot, primers are flattening, but thats where it likes it. Some are saying its dangerous and I am trying to decide if it is, or if I will just lose case life.


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## RJustice (May 28, 2008)

*Hunting rig*

This is my go to rifle for hunting, but it is also the rifle I am going to shoot at longer distances. I guess what I am saying is it is my target rifle that I hunt with. I have found two powders that it likes and I am shooting a 168 MK. I am now tweaking this. I did read somewhere a few mionutes ago that it is impossible to reach .01-.02" off with a remington factory barrel in .308" and still have the bullet in the case and fit into the magazine. So I am going to load everything as long as I can and fit into the magazine and still feed from the mag to the chamber. Since I am going to try to find the hottest thing that shoots that whole adding powder to the shorter COAL becomes a moot point I am afraid. I will however make sure that I have the bullet dia. inside the case as you recomended.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Gotta disagree with the statements about seating depth having little effect. Seating depth is often the deal maker/breaker. The first thing I do in working up a new bullet is use my comparator kit to find the coal when the bullet hits the lands. Then back off the normal 10 thousandths- often that length is unworkable because there is not enough bullet in the case to hold it-especially with bullets small for the caliber- a 110 gr 308 is obviously shorter than a 180 gr. (The suggested bullet diameter inside the case as a minimum is probably a very good parameter to keep).

Then if that ten thousandths off will not allow me to get enough bullet into the case, I will seat it deeper to where I am comfortable with there being enough bullet in the case, and check that measurement. That number will often be longer than the SAMMI max COAL. I then check to see if that coal will fit in my magazine. I don't want any loads that require me to single load- I want them to fit into the magazine.

If the coal exceeds the SAMMI max, fits into my magazine, and is at least ten thousandths of the lands that's where I will start. For instance in my model 7 .308 max coal is 2.81. I have some killer 130 ttsx loads that are 2.835 coal. They are longer than SAMMI max, fit in my magazine, are way more than ten thousandths off the lands, and group sub moa at almost 3000 fps in a 20" sporter weight bbl. Pig/white tail/ axis city.

Pressure will change the closer you get the bullet to the lands, but if you are at least ten thousandths off, you should be ok. I know when I used to shoot black powder cartridge silhouettes we used to load our 45-70's to actually slightly engrave the lands- no jump whatsoever. But that was obviously single loading and using black powder, which does not generate the pressures of smokeless.

If you are not using a comparator, in my opinion, you are not serious about your reloading. Knowing how to use that gives a reloader tons of information integral to working up good loads.

THE JAMMER


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## muddyfuzzy (Jan 2, 2011)

find the max and work back. as long as start-up pressure doesn't build too high and you have proper neck tension across the bearing surface of the bullet you have some room to play.


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## RJustice (May 28, 2008)

*I am not serious...*

Jammer
I guess I am not serious about my reloading. Ha ha ha. I don't have one of those thingys yet. I had to put a new engine in my truck last week. Remember? I used a dummy round.

As for the AOL goes. I took my dummy round and played with it and found that getting it to fit in my magazine and load easily is no where close to .01" and it also leaves more than .308" inside the case neck.

My answer is... As close as you can get to .01-.02" while keeping the bullet dia. inside the case neck and fitting inside the magazine and allowing proper loading from magazine to chamber.


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## SeaTex (Aug 27, 2009)

RJ

I bought a Sinclair comparator and insert for 24.00 including shipping. Now I'm measuring COAL off the ogive and IMO getting a lot more accurate readings.

The 139 gr. SP's I'm loading will sit .010 off the lands and still fit in my magazine and shoot a 1/2" group. The 139 gr. SST's had to be 0.40 off the lands to fit in the magazine. Tweeking the powder charge got me a 3/4" group (still a work in progress). The comparator allows me to know exactly how far off the lands I am.


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## pg542 (Oct 9, 2006)

THE JAMMER said:


> Gotta disagree with the statements about seating depth having little effect. Seating depth is often the deal maker/breaker. ......
> 
> If you are not using a comparator, in my opinion, you are not serious about your reloading. Knowing how to use that gives a reloader tons of information integral to working up good loads.
> 
> THE JAMMER


 I agree!! Stoney Point products can take ALOT of guesswork out of your own chamber dimensions, COAL for your chamber , seating depth for your lands, etc. Valuable info to have. Once you understand how the various measurements affect performance, you are able to make informed decisions on what to try next, rather than just going on a hunch. Another wise investment is a micrometer seating die. Stoney Point isn't the only brand of this type of equipment, but I like it the best.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

RJustice said:


> Jammer
> I guess I am not serious about my reloading. Ha ha ha. I don't have one of those thingys yet. I had to put a new engine in my truck last week. Remember? I used a dummy round.
> 
> As for the AOL goes. I took my dummy round and played with it and found that getting it to fit in my magazine and load easily is no where close to .01" and it also leaves more than .308" inside the case neck.
> ...


Hey R,

I wasn't trying to be elitist- you know me better than that. Just saying, as been said since my post, that it is a fantastic tool. Really lets you know exactly where you are. Plus the suggestion of competition seating dies, which I have said before, are worth their money as well.

What was it we say about reloading- each individual cartridge is less expensive, unfortunately to get all the gear necessary will take about 20 years to amortize it off. Comp seating dies $70 or so for each caliber, comparator $30 or so; automatic powder scale and dispenser $300 or so, case prep center $120 or so; 5 shot .4" group after 15 different combinations tried- PRICELESS!!

Had that today at Carter's- model 7 308, 130 ttsx; 49.5 gr varget; 210m primer; rpss used brass; comparator length 3.206; 2937 fps; 5 shots into .61" and 4 of those into .4"

*PRICLESS!! *

That's a model 7 -- 20" sporter weight bbl

THE JAMMER


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## Wolf6151 (Jun 13, 2005)

I read an article recently that stated rifles are made by lawyers not gunsmiths. I've heard this many times and have to say that I agree. Rifle companies put to much throat in their chamber in order to reduce pressure and lessen liability. It's a shame that you have to get a custom barrel in order to reach the lands and still have your round fit in the magazine.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Wolf6151 said:


> I read an article recently that stated rifles are made by lawyers not gunsmiths. I've heard this many times and have to say that I agree. Rifle companies put to much throat in their chamber in order to reduce pressure and lessen liability. It's a shame that you have to get a custom barrel in order to reach the lands and still have your round fit in the magazine.


Wolf, don't you think that is really a phenomenon that has come about in the last decade or so because of the longer ogive bullets. Just look at a core lokt vs. an amax. The taper is so severe that there is no way to stay with coal limits, and still be only ten thousandths off the lands. It's the ammunition/ bullet design that has changed, and if I were a manufacturer I might also be reluctant to change my tooling, as long as the new bullets can be made to shoot well, which they can.

I think the quality of the bullets has improved so much that the old "gotta be 10/1000's off" isn't nearly as important or critical as it used to be in the core lokt era.

Just my opinion.

THE "NEVER WITHOUT AN OPINION" JAMMER


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## RJustice (May 28, 2008)

Jammer

I was joking.

I have spent a lot of money on reloading equipment too. I actually did not know there was a tool to help you choose your seating depth until a week ago. I did find out years ago that reloading does not save you any money at all. It just causes you to shoot twice as much. same amount of money gets spent on ammo. Just twice as much ammo and a whole lot better quality. 

I do have to say that in my current situation with seating depth I will just have to load as long as I can and still fit in my magazine. Knowing I am .02 or .05 off is not going to change the fact that my magazine will only allow me to load so long. I will make sure I have the correct length when I do get a custom barrel for this thing. But for now it is what it is. 

I have read in quite a few places in the last day about throats being too long for a lot of bullets. To me this does make since for the fact that every bullets has to ba safely fired from the rifle. Even if performance is compromised. A heavy round nose has to be fired out of the same chamber a light HP has to. The round nose will need more throat than the HP. (not to disagree with "never without an opinion" Jammer or anything)


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Single loading is not that big a deal, particularly in a target/long range shootiing situation given the time elapsed b/w shots. 

Or, find a bullet that does not need a real short jump to be accurate. A-Max 155's allegedly can be real accurate with a big jump, but I'm not personally vouching for that.


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## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

THE JAMMER said:


> Gotta disagree with the statements about seating depth having little effect. Seating depth is often the deal maker/breaker.
> 
> If the coal exceeds the SAMMI max, fits into my magazine, and is at least ten thousandths of the lands that's where I will start. For instance in my model 7 .308 max coal is 2.81. I have some killer 130 ttsx loads that are 2.835 coal. They are longer than SAMMI max, fit in my magazine, are way more than ten thousandths off the lands, and group sub moa at almost 3000 fps in a 20" sporter weight bbl. Pig/white tail/ axis city.
> 
> THE JAMMER


you disagree with me and then say exactly what I said. seating depth is over rated
your way off the lands and still shoot sub moa.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Right, but that load will struggle at long range. The barnes 130 has the BC of a brick. Its in the .340 range while the AMax 155 is something like .435 and the AMax 168 is in the neighborhood of .475. The Hornady 178's are something like .495 to .505. 

BC is a big part of the game at long range, particularly in shorter barrels like the production 24's and 26's. If we were shooting custom actions, with short throats and palma length barrels, we would have a bit more flexibility.


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## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

Ernest said:


> Right, but that load will struggle at long range. The barnes 130 has the BC of a brick. Its in the .340 range while the AMax 155 is something like .435 and the AMax 168 is in the neighborhood of .475. The Hornady 178's are something like .495 to .505.
> 
> BC is a big part of the game at long range, particularly in shorter barrels like the production 24's and 26's. If we were shooting custom actions, with short throats and palma length barrels, we would have a bit more flexibility.


 dats another topic


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

zrexpilot said:


> you disagree with me and then say exactly what I said. seating depth is over rated
> your way off the lands and still shoot sub moa.


Dear Z,

You missed what I said. I said I disagreed with your statement that seating depth wasn't that important, which I still disagree with. I didn't say anything about 10/1000 off the lands.

Yes it's hard to get the longer ogive bullets 10/1000 off the lands and stay within SAMMI COAL limits; however, the depth at which we seat those longer ogive bullets, even though they might be significantly more than 10/1000 off the lands, has a dramatic effect on accuracy. Two different subjects.

THE JAMMER


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

Every rifle and bullet will be different. I have found that Sierra match bullets will tolerate a lot of jump. My particular 168 and 175 loads like about .060" jump. I lucked out with the chamber in my .308 from Remington. It is pretty tight for a production rifle. Yes I used the SP tool to measure it. The rifle can and has shot sub .5 MOA groups with rounds loaded .060 from the lands.

I was told that AMAX bullets like .020" off the lands by Hornady. My rifle refuses to group them anything close to that. I ended up having to back them off to .045" from the lands. Maybe it's just my barrel and chamber like more jump for some reason?

Here are two 3 shot groups at 100 yards with some 168 Sierras loaded to 2.810". I know 3 shot doesn't show much but I shot two different groups just to see. Center to center of the groups is .178"










And a 5 shot group with 175 Sierras at 200 yards measured .5. The quarter covers the entire group. Don't pay attention to the hole in the quarter either. It jumped out on my target at 200 yards one day. 










This just means experiement with your OAL to find what your rifle likes best. You might be surprised.


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