# Fly Fishing Intro....Again, Sorry for the Length



## Permit Rat

Hi everyone....I'm Rick and new to So. Texas and to 2 cool. I already posted an intro in general fishing. But fly fishing is such a unique and different sport, so I thought it best to share some of my fly fishing experience here.

I learned to fly cast at age 8, in upstate N.Y. My maternal grandfather decided he was too old for fishing and gave me all his rods and reels, his (rather elaborate) fly tying kit, plus all his library of fishing books. That Summer I also got my first fly tying lessons and have been tying flies ever since......(that is until my salt water guiding got going full swing and I burnt out on it.) From then on, I fly fished all over New England, New York and a little in Pennsylvania. In the 60's I broke into salt water, catching schoolie striped bass, bluefish and Atlantic bonito off cape Cod and the Vineyard.

I made my first trip to the Florida Keys in 1967. This was over the Christmas/New Years holiday and not generally the best weather for fly fishing. The highlight of that trip, (for my parents anyway) was watching me completely launch myself out of the boat while trying to reach a school of fairly large jack crevalle with my fly rod. I didn't let go of the rod but thank God a fish didn't take the fly right then.

In 1976 I moved to the Keys for good. I had wanted to be an outdoor writer, because back then they were given all kinds of free gear and were sent by their magazines to exotic destinations, to fish and then write about it. Mention your hotel in the article and you were usually comped for that too. Guides even comped the day's fishing, back in those days and earlier. Oh.....a full day trip on a light tackle boat in the Keys, back in the 60's, cost a whopping $65. Lefty Kreh helped me a lot, giving me names of people to look up, once I was there. One final thing he said to me before I left his house was, "Rick, whatever you do, don't become a guide.....you won't have the time to fish, much less take photos and write about it"

I tried to take that to heart, but the Keys have always been the most expensive part of Florida and if you're not some kind of professional, it can be hard to make financial ends meet. Fortunately, I had a little bit of 
money stashed away, so I bought a 17 ft. Mako. It was to be my first guide boat (sorry, Lefty!)

I started guiding in the Keys, the early Spring of 1978. In those early Summers, RT Trosset and I would take busman's holidays and go to the Marquesas, fly fishing for tarpon. Those were wonderful years. I bought a 21 ft. Mako and would start to guide offshore and on the wrecks in the Gulf, teasing big amberjack, cobia and barracuda for my clients to catch on light tackle and fly. Wreck fishing in those days was my absolute favorite thing to do with a charter.

In the mid eighties I finished my own design for a permit fly, the _Permit Rat_. Using that fly alone, I have taken about 2 dozen permit, once releasing 3 in the same afternoon. My total permit on fly count stands near 30 fish, including those caught from shallow wrecks and floaters, just off the flats. One needs a different fly for those conditions. Permit are my love and I'd rather fish for them than giant tarpon.

I have fly fished in Costa Rica, the Bahamas and Mexico, just like many of you have too. But today I am much less enthusiastic about fly fishing, than I was in my youth. For bonefish and permit and about 95% of my tarpon, I use a fly rod exclusively. But you guys will never see me wading on the LM flats, fly fishing (blind casting) for trout and redfish. I love snook (one of my reasons for choosing So. Texas) and imagine them being found under certain lighted docks at night. That too would be a time I'd use a long rod.

I have already seen on this forum, people asking questions about the Keys. In the future, if I can be of help in any way, interms of fishing or techniques specific to that area, please feel free to ask. In the meantime, I hope to see some of you out on the water.....or at least in the bar alongside a cold one. After all, that's where most fish grow!!!!


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## Meadowlark

Welcome Permit Rat. I love the Keys. No place like it in the US...or actually anywhere I have been. 

Looking forward to your inputs....and would like to see a picture of the fly "Permit Rat" cause I also love the Permit.


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## southpaw

Welcome again Rick. I've sailed the keys but never fly fished them, but hope to one day sooner rather than later. When I do I'll definitely be picking your brain. I think you'll like the waters of the lower laguna madre. It's a beautiful place and wading some of the flats down there before I'd swear I was fishing a flat in Florida. I fish quite a bit out of Port Mansfield, but we cover water all the way down to Port Isabel and SPI. Toss up some pics to go with your intro, I bet you've got some awesome ones


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## Permit Rat

Thank you Meadowlark and southpaw. I tried to post a pic of the fly, but it appears that you need hosting with this site. None of my pics have url's. Funny....the Florida Sportsman Forum is run by the same firm (vBulletin) and their forum format is identical to 2cool's. But on the FS forum, you can download a picture from your files on your PC.


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## southpaw

If you hit the "Post Reply" button to reply rather than just use the the quick reply box, there's a section about halfway down the page that allows you to upload pics from your computer. Just hit the "manage attachments" button


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## noise.boy

Welcome Permit Rat. "Ditto" on hearing about some of your fly fishing adventures!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Permit Rat

Thanks southpaw....I guess I have to go through my photos and make them smaller. Right now their file size is too big for the forum. For magazines, you want the largest possible for acuity. I was going to post the link for _Fly Fishing in Salt Waters_, as the fly with tying instructions is featured there. But it appears the mag. has been sold and the site doesn't work the same.....at least I couldn't find it. The permit in my avatar is (I think) the second of three I released one afternoon, while wading in the back country. The last and biggest one was hooked right at dusk and it was pretty dark by the time I got it in, so no photo of it. Stay tuned....I'll get it done.


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## Permit Rat

*Tarpon... by Joe Richard*










I don't know if any of y'all know Joe Richard, but he used to be with Tide Magazine, the official publication of the (then GCCA) Gulf Coast Conservation Association. He wanted to do an article, back in 1989, on the resurgence of tarpon IN TEXAS (of all places....imagine that!!!) Anyway, he fished with Harlan Franklin and I, because he said the water was prettier in the Keys than in Texas. We took my skiff out for a morning and imagine my surprise when I got to do the fishing! OK...I got lucky and caught 2 tarpon.....this would be the first one, judging by the water color. Later we went down to the sand off Boca Grande/Woman Key and nailed another one. There's about a 2-3 page article, if anyone collects the old back issues.


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## Permit Rat

*Same fish*










Same fish ...different view. As you can see, Joe took all these.


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## Permit Rat

*Further West*

Bingo


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## caddis

Welcome Rick. Why did you move to Texas?

Have you fished much around the Port Charlotte / Boca area? I lived in Tampa back in the early 90's and am looking at a vacation home over that way, but thinking the fishing and pressure may be better down towards Port Charlotte.

I started FF and tying at 8 also, but it was 1978 . I grew up in Oregon.

Thanks,
Todd


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## Permit Rat

Caddis, I have no idea what the fishing pressure is like now. I spent the Summer on Sanibel/Captiva, in 1989 and the redfishing was phenomenal to say the least. As you may already know, that area has 4 tides a day during the new and full moons. During each of those periods, I went out and caught over 50 redfish in a day...by myself. Not all were caught on fly, but that really doesn't matter. This was about 2 years after the commercial net ban on trout and redfish was imposed. Their resurgence was something to behold. Florida's slot limit is similar to Texas' and I remember specifically that in the entire month of July, I must have caught more than 1000 reds. Of those, ONE fish was under slot. TWO fish were in slot (and eaten by yours truly) ALL THE REST were over the slot limit.

My reasons for moving to SOUTH Texas are several. First, Florida is too crowded and it is getting expensive. The Keys are already cost-prohibitive for me in my retirement. On the east coast where I lived, we have to deal with the Army Corp of Engineers, dumping fresh water from Lake Okeechobee, into our estuary and polluting the water. Every Summer we have algae blooms that make our kids sick if they swim in the water. It kills the sea grasses in the Indian River (Intracoastal Waterway) and the fish leave. There are significant fish kills every Summer. 

On top of that, it is getting to the point where a fisherman has to have a special permit or endorsement, just to breathe out on the water. It was not like that in my day. I remember ZERO slot limits; ZERO daily bag limits; ZERO closed seasons (except for lobster and stone crab). Enough said?

Texas has many of the same or near same regs. as Florida does. But the psychologist in me says that it is much easier to "grow up" in an area that already has the regs., than it is to live and try to fish in an area that you can remember as not having them. Don't get me wrong.....I believe that today these new laws are necessary to preserve fish stocks for our future, especially seeing as there are so many more fishermen out on the water today. I just think Texas' regs., especially where slot limits are concerned, are a little more sensible; for both snook and redfish.

I think you will be unpleasantly surprised at the boat traffic around the west coast these days, especially on weekends nowadays.


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## skinnywaterfishin

Permit Rat...I'd give my left arm to buy you a beer or ten and listen to your stories and ask you a million questions.

You have truly lived my dream. I've been STRONGLY thinking of retiring in South Florida or the Upper Keys as fly fishing for tarpon, permit and bones are my dream life...plus I'm a big scuba diver. Those are my two favorite hobbies so Islamorada and Key Largo are calling my name on a daily basis.

I will be going on my first fly fishing trip to Islamorada in exactly 1 month. I am already busting at the seams. I've hired a fly guide and am so pumped up I can't stand it.

Welcome to the forum and welcome to Texas. I use a guide down on the LLM named Ben Paschal. He has his own company named Laguna Madre Outfitters and is based out of Arroyo City...great kid and guide. We've developed quite the friendship over the last 3 years. He'll be heading to the Louisiana bayou in about a month or so. 

Anyway, I do have a million questions about South Florida and the Keys. I've been reading everything I can get my hands on about the Keys and Everglades National Park. In fact just yesterday I read about Chokoloski for the first time...started reading about Everglades City too. 

I see Veracruz, Mexico in your "Location" profile...do you spend part of the year down south too?


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## Permit Rat

Skinnywater....Islamorada is a good place in October. There will be bonefish and big ones too, but they can be as wary as a big brown trout in a limestone stream. There aren't near the permit that Key West has, but if the weather turns bad, you can always go and hide in the Everglades, which is easily reachable from Isla. Only trouble will be that then you'll be fishing for fish you can catch in Texas too. There might still be some tarpon hanging around in the glades.

Bonefish can be chummed and you can practice casting into the chum. This will give your best opportunity to see one and get an idea what they look like in the water. Not much, I can assure you. Permit must be poled after and cast to. Here you have a moving target, but not unlike the redfish at times. The difference is that the water will be clearer and permit are about 100 times spookier than a redfish. So once you spot one, you have to be fast.....really fast....like pick-up-and-shoot. More than 1 back cast and you risk the fish seeing your rod and body movement.

Permit are one flats fish that don't mind wind. So practice your cross-wind presentations before you go. I like at least 15 kts. The wavelets on the water help to mask your silhouette from the fish. Permit will come much closer to the boat when it's windy.

If you were fishing with me and using a crab pattern, I would tell you to put the fly right on the fish's nose and just let it sink. That is your best chance for a take. Once the fly hits the bottom, you will be forced to retrieve it. If not, the fly will just sit there and your crab will appear dead. Permit will not eat a dead crab, even when a natural is used with a spinning rod. The normal fly fishing retrieve does not lend itself well to what a live crab does in the wild. If I have to move a crab fly, I use the "hand-twist" retrieve, borrowed from fresh water trout fishing. It gives a much more constant motion to the fly, rather than the stop-and-go action of a normal retrieve.

But you will not be fishing with me, so you want to get with your guide and do like he says. He might have a better technique, who knows? But good luck to you.

Yes, I have a house in Veracruz that I'm building and when finished I will sell and move full time to PI. But I'll be spending more time in PI, once I get my boat up there. Fishing here is mostly all offshore. I discussed it at more length in my _General Fishing_ intro.


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## skinnywaterfishin

Permit Rat said:


> Skinnywater....Islamorada is a good place in October. There will be bonefish and big ones too, but they can be as wary as a big brown trout in a limestone stream. There aren't near the permit that Key West has, but if the weather turns bad, you can always go and hide in the Everglades, which is easily reachable from Isla. Only trouble will be that then you'll be fishing for fish you can catch in Texas too. There might still be some tarpon hanging around in the glades.
> 
> Bonefish can be chummed and you can practice casting into the chum. This will give your best opportunity to see one and get an idea what they look like in the water. Not much, I can assure you. Permit must be poled after and cast to. Here you have a moving target, but not unlike the redfish at times. The difference is that the water will be clearer and permit are about 100 times spookier than a redfish. So once you spot one, you have to be fast.....really fast....like pick-up-and-shoot. More than 1 back cast and you risk the fish seeing your rod and body movement.
> 
> Permit are one flats fish that don't mind wind. So practice your cross-wind presentations before you go. I like at least 15 kts. The wavelets on the water help to mask your silhouette from the fish. Permit will come much closer to the boat when it's windy.
> 
> If you were fishing with me and using a crab pattern, I would tell you to put the fly right on the fish's nose and just let it sink. That is your best chance for a take. Once the fly hits the bottom, you will be forced to retrieve it. If not, the fly will just sit there and your crab will appear dead. Permit will not eat a dead crab, even when a natural is used with a spinning rod. The normal fly fishing retrieve does not lend itself well to what a live crab does in the wild. If I have to move a crab fly, I use the "hand-twist" retrieve, borrowed from fresh water trout fishing. It gives a much more constant motion to the fly, rather than the stop-and-go action of a normal retrieve.
> 
> But you will not be fishing with me, so you want to get with your guide and do like he says. He might have a better technique, who knows? But good luck to you.
> 
> Yes, I have a house in Veracruz that I'm building and when finished I will sell and move full time to PI. But I'll be spending more time in PI, once I get my boat up there. Fishing here is mostly all offshore. I discussed it at more length in my _General Fishing_ intro.


Permit Rat,

How funny, just the other day I was reading an article about Sandy Moret. It was back in the day and the article was talking about permit fishing in the keys. I have been looking for it all day but can't find where I read it as I wanted to share it with you. Anyway, I may have some of the names wrong but I think it mentioned Stu Apte, Flip Palot and Chico Fernandez. Maybe none of those guys but Sandy was the focus of the article. It talked about how no one used to have much success catching permit until they started using the exact technique you mentioned ie: sinking flies and specifically a crab pattern. I fished once in Belize and caught some bones but not a permit. We tried in an area but only saw 1 and really never had a good shot at it. And we used a crab pattern. 

I mentioned I've been reading everything I can get my hands on regarding the Keys, the Glades and fishing in that area. I wanted to ask if you had any book recommendations? Anything from geography stuff to tips/tricks to fish stories. I'd be interested in anything you think might be worth a read.


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## Permit Rat

I know all those guys, except Chico....never met him. But unless I'm wrong, he got his start up in the Northeast, fishing for stripers and bluefish. I seem to remember he had an effective sand eel pattern that solved the problem of catching striped bass (at least for fly fishermen) when the bass were keying in on them. We didn't have soft plastics back in those days and people with spinning/casting rods did not have an artificial lure that would imitate sand eels when they emerged. It was frustrating to say the least, to see a big school of bass feeding, birds diving, etc. yet they wouldn't touch anything we threw at them.

My "bible" of fly fishing was Lefty's _*Fly Fishing in Salt Waters.*_ Interesting you should mention how few permit were caught as of the writing of the article, because in the first printing of his book, Lefty says that (either) _"...fifty have been caught,"_ or _"....fewer than fifty have been caught."_

That was in 1972. That book has long been outdated, but it is still a good read for those into the history of salt water fly fishing. The reader can see what we had at our disposal back then, as compared with now.

I remember when Del Brown first started fishing for permit and it was a big deal when he had caught 10. Then in the mid-80's, about the time I finished the _Permit Rat_, another big deal was made because he had caught 50. About 2-3 years after that, I had 24 permit on my fly alone, so I was catching him fast. Keep in mind that in one 2-week outing to the keys, Del probably got to fish more hours than I was able to fish for myself in a year. Guides simply don't get to fish that much.

Anyway, I left the business and read a few years later that he was at 500. He must have discovered Belize and Mexico as well, because IMO, he wouldn't have half that number, fishing solely in the Keys. The lone permit you saw in Belize, must have been of decent size, simply because he was a loner. I have to admit I have a problem with the Mexican/Belizean "dinnerplates" that travel in big schools and eat everything put in front of them. To me they're not real permit, even though they are... LOL. If I fish with a guide in Mexico, I tell him I want to look for bigger fish, even though we most likely won't see the numbers. BTW, Mexican permit at least, even the bigger ones...still eat a fly with (seemingly) much more regularity than a Keys fish. At least, that has been my experience to date.


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## Finn Maccumhail

Very cool stuff.

I officially landed my first 2 tarpon ever a few weeks ago over the white sands out in front of Woman Key and Ballast Key. Can't wait to go back. One went about 45# and the other about 70#. The 70-pounder broke my 10wt. Fished with John O'Hearn.

And I'm going to get to fish Islamorada over Halloween weekend next month. I'm fishing with Sandy Moret's son, Drew Moret.


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## Permit Rat

*kudos!*

That's great Finn....70 lbs. is a very respectable tarpon for this time of year. 45 lbs. is more the norm. I guess that you recognize the area in the 2 photos above. I am standing in front od Woman Key and Boca Grande is in the background.

Maybe someday you'll get to see this in that area:


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## Finn Maccumhail

Permit Rat said:


> That's great Finn....70 lbs. is a very respectable tarpon for this time of year. 45 lbs. is more the norm. I guess that you recognize the area in the 2 photos above. I am standing in front od Woman Key and Boca Grande is in the background.
> 
> Maybe someday you'll get to see this in that area:


Yeah, those pics are probably 300-400 yards west of where I caught my poons.

We were probably 100 yards due south of the channel between Ballast & Woman Keys.

I definitely want to get back out there during the peak of the migration.


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## skinnywaterfishin

Permit Rat said:


> I know all those guys, except Chico....never met him. But unless I'm wrong, he got his start up in the Northeast, fishing for stripers and bluefish. I seem to remember he had an effective sand eel pattern that solved the problem of catching striped bass (at least for fly fishermen) when the bass were keying in on them. We didn't have soft plastics back in those days and people with spinning/casting rods did not have an artificial lure that would imitate sand eels when they emerged. It was frustrating to say the least, to see a big school of bass feeding, birds diving, etc. yet they wouldn't touch anything we threw at them.
> 
> My "bible" of fly fishing was Lefty's _*Fly Fishing in Salt Waters.*_ Interesting you should mention how few permit were caught as of the writing of the article, because in the first printing of his book, Lefty says that (either) _"...fifty have been caught,"_ or _"....fewer than fifty have been caught."_
> 
> That was in 1972. That book has long been outdated, but it is still a good read for those into the history of salt water fly fishing. The reader can see what we had at our disposal back then, as compared with now.
> 
> I remember when Del Brown first started fishing for permit and it was a big deal when he had caught 10. Then in the mid-80's, about the time I finished the _Permit Rat_, another big deal was made because he had caught 50. About 2-3 years after that, I had 24 permit on my fly alone, so I was catching him fast. Keep in mind that in one 2-week outing to the keys, Del probably got to fish more hours than I was able to fish for myself in a year. Guides simply don't get to fish that much.
> 
> Anyway, I left the business and read a few years later that he was at 500. He must have discovered Belize and Mexico as well, because IMO, he wouldn't have half that number, fishing solely in the Keys. The lone permit you saw in Belize, must have been of decent size, simply because he was a loner. I have to admit I have a problem with the Mexican/Belizean "dinnerplates" that travel in big schools and eat everything put in front of them. To me they're not real permit, even though they are... LOL. If I fish with a guide in Mexico, I tell him I want to look for bigger fish, even though we most likely won't see the numbers. BTW, Mexican permit at least, even the bigger ones...still eat a fly with (seemingly) much more regularity than a Keys fish. At least, that has been my experience to date.


I could listen to your experiences all day PR! Just awesome stuff.

I have Lefty's book and have tied a few of his patterns. 

I dream of seeing something like this:


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## redfish203

Permit Rat, I have spent many months (summer, early and late) fishing lower keys backcountry out of sugarloaf in my boat. I started learning snipe key and expanded to mud, barracuda, etc. My goal was permit on fly, although I love to catch everything down there on all kinds of tackle. I have had many shots at single permit and doubles, but no takers on fly. Best day ever on an incoming tide on snipe was over 20 shots at fish coming out of a creek in the rain, not much boat traffic back then. Best shot ever was a monster in the creek on a ray and my buddy put down a perfect shot, only problem was the fly was broke off wrapped on my platform. Well, I was dying to just catch one and finally threw a...gasp...live crab. I have since caught several on spin and find it challenging and super fun on 10 pound tackle. Maybe I will go and try the fly again, just hard to do. BTW, you simply cannot describe to someone how pretty that backcountry is, prettier than any place I have fished on an incoming. Seeing 100 pound jews right under the boat is unbelievable. If I happen to win the lottery, you will find me on shark key. Your stories make me very envious.


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## Permit Rat

Redfish....we have to talk. *What years were you there?* Sugarloaf is where I kept my boat in the years before I was a guide. That would be the mid-70's. I think you were later, because you mentioned your poling platform. When I was at Sugarloaf, they hadn't been invented yet. But I have fished and caught bonefish and permit on fly, in all of the areas you mentioned....and one place a little further west that you didn't. You also mentioned "incoming tide," and that would be correct....Yet odd at the same time because nearly all the other boats (and very few at that) I saw in those areas were poling EAST on the lower outgoing.

I don't get too specific about certain places and techniques on public forums, because of the lurkers. They are a huge problem on the Florida Forums and I have seen here where they out-number the members on line by 3 or 4:1 on this Forum. So if you (or any member) needs some info that I can help with, please PM me.


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## redfish203

I only mention incoming for 2 reasons, the pretty water it brings in from the gulf, and my best day ever for shots...I have fished it in many tides, which I have never fully figured out with the gulf and Atlantic working all the time against each other. The best day was an incoming, staked up on the outflow of a creek on Snipe, inside, unconventional spot, and I have never seen them there in numbers since that day. Most of the fish I have caught were outside, if thats the right term, on the front. I never really fished the tides specifically, just early, and every day for 3 to 4 weeks at a time. I started in the early 90's, but did not bring my boats there until the late 90's, early 20oo's with Texas scooters, which were ufo's down there. Started fishing poling skiffs later, I now fish an East Cape Lostmen that has spent time down there. Boat traffic has changed in the backcountry drastically since then, I can only imagine your days. However, it is still my favorite place in the world. I invested a lot of hours just finding small spots, even caught a good snook down there. Yes there are a few snook and local tarpon in small places. I love grab bagging the creeks for mangroves, and whatever. Have you ever fished Sammy's at night for poons? I stay in the saddlebunch keys, close enough to find trouble in cayo hueso. Been taking my girls since they could walk, i would throw snapper heads on a stringer and soak them on the back side of Mallory while staked up shallow. Put them on Lemons and nurse shark till they say uncle...best times ever.


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## redfish203

I only mention incoming for 2 reasons, the pretty water it brings in from the gulf, and my best day ever for shots...I have fished it in many tides, which I have never fully figured out with the gulf and Atlantic working all the time against each other. The best day was an incoming, staked up on the outflow of a creek on Snipe, inside, unconventional spot, and I have never seen them there in numbers since that day. Most of the fish I have caught were outside, if thats the right term, on the front. I never really fished the tides specifically, just early, and every day for 3 to 4 weeks at a time. I started in the early 90's, but did not bring my boats there until the late 90's, early 20oo's with Texas scooters, which were ufo's down there. Started fishing poling skiffs later, I now fish an East Cape Lostmen that has spent time down there. Boat traffic has changed in the backcountry drastically since then, I can only imagine your days. However, it is still my favorite place in the world. I invested a lot of hours just finding small spots, even caught a good snook down there. Yes there are a few snook and local tarpon in small places. I love grab bagging the creeks for mangroves, and whatever. Have you ever fished Sammy's at night for poons? I stay in the saddlebunch keys, close enough to find trouble in cayo hueso. Been taking my girls since they could walk, i would throw snapper heads on a stringer and soak them on the back side of Mallory while staked up shallow. Put them on Lemons and nurse shark till they say uncle...best times ever.


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## redfish203

Permit,

Sorry for the double post...curse this ipad. Some of this may look familiar.


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## redfish203

One more...


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## Permit Rat

Nice Permit! You catch him on fly? If you PM me before your next trip, I'll try to help you out with that area....like tide differences, times of slack water, etc. You were smart to fish early and be sure to try overcast days. It seems the fish stay around longer when there is no sun. One day, under those conditions, a client and his son fishing with me, released 5 permit before lunchtime.


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## skinnywaterfishin

I could listen to y'alls stories and look at your pictures all day. Man, y'all have truly lived my dream.

This is by far my favorite thread since I joined this site.


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## commtrd

^^^ Ditto. I hope to someday relocate to Florida for the fishing.


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## Snookered

redfish203 said:


> If I happen to win the lottery, you will find me on shark key. Your stories make me very envious.


 and if I win the lotto as well, I will be your neighbor on shark key, LOL...I love it down there myself, and we visit about every other year....I lived in Key Largo in 2002, and just fell in love with the whole stretch....but, as was mentioned, I had to work 7 days a week down there just to fall deeper in debt....couldn't make it, so moved back to Texas....I love it here too...

when we visit, we roam the lower keys, and fish with Jeremy (strawhat charters)....we chase tarpon at the boca chica bridge at night from the bank (which kind of precludes fly gear, they head straight for the pilings every time).... and we rent boats (rent-a-wreck is more like it, LOL) out of summerland key and drive out to Looe Key and dive at least one day....great stuff down there!! wish I could spend more time fishing the middle and upper keys, mostly headed towards the back country and flamingo....that is God's country out there.....

and I also hear everyone on the dramatic increase of boat traffic down there, I've seen it increase to ludicrous levels just in the past 15 years since I lived there and been visiting....

great thread gentlemen....and LOVE the old pics, and pics of tarpon on the flats.....MORE PLEASE!!!
snookered


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## Snookered

oh, I forgot, this is a permit thread.....last permit I had a shot at was a few years back at Boca Paila, which is on the Sian Ka'an biosphere reserve, down in Quintana Roo south of Tulum....talk about god's country! 100's of bones in the back on the flats, but nothing larger than 12 inches, which was kind of weird....we got to fish the pass itself for about 2 hours, and landed several large snook, a couple barracuda, and had two pairs of permit come through, large fish, maybe 15lbs each (like the permit a couple pages back)..... however they were smoking in and out, full speed.....I sort of got a spoon in front of one, and he wheeled on it, but then sped off back into the blue....got my ticker going pretty good, actually a few folks saw it occur and we all got excited....we still tell the stories of that day around the campfire in certain company....
snookered


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## Permit Rat

LOL Snookered....this isn't a "permit" thread...it started out as merely my personal introduction to all in the 2Cool fly fishing community. I just happen to have been a guide in the Keys and did a lot of fly fishing for the "Big 3." Feel free to chime in with some snook stories. I for one would be very interested, as snook are one of my favorite fish. I hope to learn a lot more about them in the LLM. In fact, they are a big reason for my move there.

Everyone interested has given their own experiences. I would not book Boca Paila, these days, but I would go out to Punta Allen (you fished near there) and look for big permit along the little reef. By "big," I'm talking 30+ lbs.


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## Snookered

Permit Rat said:


> LOL Snookered....this isn't a "permit" thread...it started out as merely my personal introduction to all in the 2Cool fly fishing community. I just happen to have been a guide in the Keys and did a lot of fly fishing for the "Big 3." Feel free to chime in with some snook stories. I for one would be very interested, as snook are one of my favorite fish. I hope to learn a lot more about them in the LLM. In fact, they are a big reason for my move there.
> 
> Everyone interested has given their own experiences. I would not book Boca Paila, these days, but I would go out to Punta Allen (you fished near there) and look for big permit along the little reef. By "big," I'm talking 30+ lbs.


LOL! yes, and where's my manners, welcome aboard Permit! sorry about introductions first....

agreed on Boca Paila these days, and correct on Punta Allen (yeah, we fished a bit out of there, but you really need to burn south, and unless you get a good guide, they don't want to spend the gas down there)....if anyone was thinking about going, do it!!!!

yes, those linesiders have a special place in my heart as well....I'm out of corpus, and don't make it south very often, but there are some down there....get a skiff and spend some time in south bay fishing techniques similar to the everglades, except on a much smaller scale, LOL!!!!!

they really stack up in the ship channel, especially in the winter time....get yourself a rumble-stick set up, and go chase them around the docks...they are seriously structure oriented down here....

I'd say go chase them on the jetties, but with the red tide sweeping through from port Aransas to boca chica, anything on the beach and jetties is likely dead at this point...

as you're aware, we have predominately two types of snook here in texas, the fat snook, which average from 14-20 inches, and the commons, which average from 20-32, with I think maybe around a 34 being the current catch and release record....the fat snook can be found on the back side of the island around about any pier, and about half way down the jetties....fun little guys....

once the red tide clears up and the fish come back over the next few seasons, you can get loco and drive up the island and try the south Mansfield jetty....I finally landed my first common snook at the Mansfield north jetty this past summer (after literally catching over 200 at packery, fish pass, and port a over the past few years)......just a little guy.....


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## Snookered

whoops, and I got cut off there....I was also going to tell you about fishing the rio grande all the way down boca chica.....last summer, I was down there for work, and caught two nice, slot snook in the middle of the day on topwaters, right next to the bank in the dirty water....it reminded me exactly of the day we fished boca paila, and figured out that the snook were 10ft from the bank, and that we had been walking through them for hours....we backed up to the dry sand and starting nailing some great fish....same thing at boca chica/rio grande...

and don't forget tarpon! the past couple of years there's been a resurgence of tarpon at the Mansfield and brazos Santiago jetties, where the fish have been around for almost 6 months....this is one from a couple years ago at Mansfield...some of you folks might remember this one....



good discussion Permit (and everyone).....

currently planning our everglades camping trip.....we head down out of the port o glades in february, and spend a week out somewhere around Hog and Tiger Keys....
snookered


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## Snookered

and because pictures are ALWAYS more fun, here's one of those snook from Boca Paila back in 2000....



snookered


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## Permit Rat

Snookered, I don't think I have ever seen a snook that white before. You think he's lived all his life on white sand? LOL

I'm also betting that in Texas, you have a 3rd species, the swordspine, which is easily identified by the long spine emanating from the leading edge of the anal fin. These little (rarely more than 20") snook seem to litter the Mexican coastline and they are generally what is served in Mexican restaurants. "_Robalito al mojo de ajo_," is a dish to die for.

If I were younger, I'd research the swordspine as thoroughly as possible and if that research warranted, I'd make a push for the legalization of the taking of swordspines and below the current minimum length for common snook. 2 per day per person, boat limit of 4 fish. In Mexico there are zero fishing regulations and swordspines are netted on a daily basis and have been for generations. Yet their population seems to still be stable, so I am thinking they are much more prolific than the other snooks and would not suffer from hook-and-line fishing. Besides that, you'd have to target them specifically, with smaller baits and in certain areas only. That alone would self-limit the recreational catch.


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## caddis

Hey Rick, I'm headed to Paradise Lodge on the Yucatan Nov 1-8, a friend called with a super discount. Any tips? Your permit fly work there? Size?
http://www.tarponparadise.net/index.php

Thanks,
Todd


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## Permit Rat

Hi Todd.....I am sure my fly would work there, but you might not need it. I was on my third trip to Chetumal Bay, before I had my first real refusal to the bunny _gotcha_ that I was using.

I found that fly, quite by accident, while perusing the salt water flies in my local fly shop, in Stuart, FL. In fact, I didn't even know it was a _gotcha_ at the time. It was tied with silli legs and tail (I trim the tail to be shorter) and the thread was orange and that is what caught my eye. In Mexico, most of the artificial lures and many of the flies have orange and tan in them. I have come to learn that rabbit fur is quite durable, despite its softness and it looks sexy as heck in the water when as used as tail material on tarpon flies.

I never get fancy with fly hooks and I would suggest #2 and #4 hooks, (Mustad)depending on the mfgr. I have some #4 gotchas that are tied on either Gammakatsu or Owner hooks and they look more like #2s to me. Use the #2s if the bones will eat them, and you won't have to even change flies for small permit. If your guide will take you for bigger permit, then a 2 or 1 might be better. In November, the tides will be dropping toward Wintertime lows and there will be some shallower water, so I would also have #6s at my disposal as well.

I have never fished in Bahia Espiritu Santo, but have wanted to. It seems more remote with less pressure than Ascension. Take lots of pictures and give us a report. I would be interested to know about the fishing time you lose, if you have to drive to Espiritu Santo and/or Bahia Chetumal, before you even get in a boat. I think the website said it was a 2 hour drive to Espiritu, and if the roads are like what I have experienced (horrendous) it will be that long to get to Xcalak as well. I am thinking this lodge wants to push their tarpon and snook fishing in the nearby lakes, over other options. So stock up on tarpon and snook streamers, size 1/0 to 1 and 2 for the micro tarpon.

As far as Paradise Lodge is concerned, you may be pretty remote and you won't have a car at your disposal. I bring all my liquor with me and can get ice in Xcalak. You won't have that option. As for fly patterns, I'm guessing you have to contact the Fly Shoppe in California, to get more information. Good luck.


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## caddis

Thanks a ton Rick. Any way you could post a pick of the bunny Gotcha? If not, what color rabbit strip and silli legs?
We'll see, the lodge says you get to pick where you want to go, but I think there is a 2 day limit for Bahia Espiritu Santo. Hopefully the fishing is good, it is the last week of their season and wasn't booked so we got it for almost 50% off.


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## Permit Rat

*Bunny Gotcha*

Here you go. This is on a size 4 hook and has waaay too much material....and lead eyes. A #4 (or 6) should have bead chain eyes. On a #2 hook, it would be acceptable for bones and good for small permit, less than 10 lbs. In Mexico at least, permit can be seen following sting rays. This usually doesn't happen in the States....at least I have never seen it, but I suppose anything is possible.

You can see the silli legs and crystal flash in the tail, which I have already trimmed to extend only as far as the wing. I'm going to doctor this fly some more, such that hopefully I can get the fur to end closer to the bend in the hook. This will help to avoid short takes....I hope.
I am a huge advocate of using the shortest leader possible, when fishing permit and using the _Permit Rat_. In windy weather, 7 feet is what I strive for. I use a floating line and dress it further to help with floating. The short leader combined with a fast sinking pattern, hopefully gives more of a jigging action to the retrieve....the fly goes up and down more, rather than horizontally through the water. I have found this technique to be effective when using jigs on spinning gear for permit, so why wouldn't it work with flies too?


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## caddis

Thanks SO much Rick. That is much different than what I've seen on line looking from your first post. I'll tie a few of these up.


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## Permit Rat

Here's the exact same fly, after I trimmed about 1/2 of the rabbit strip. Now the wing ends much closer to the bend of the hook and the silhouette looks much more like a size 4 than the #1 that it used to.


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## caddis

Hey Rick, your orange bunny Gotcha fly worked great on Bones. 
A rough week weather wise, our group hooked 9 and landed 6 on permit, but it was tough to see and windy. I hooked one but it got off. Some friends brought a "secret" fly from Key West that was very similar to your fly, it had some orange (instead of yellow) and like a single crab claw looking tail, but similar eyes and deer hair...three of the permit were taken on it.
Thanks for the tips.


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## Permit Rat

caddis said:


> Hey Rick, your orange bunny Gotcha fly worked great on Bones.
> A rough week weather wise, our group hooked 9 and landed 6 on permit, but it was tough to see and windy. I hooked one but it got off. Some friends brought a "secret" fly from Key West that was very similar to your fly, it had some orange (instead of yellow) and like a single crab claw looking tail, but similar eyes and deer hair...three of the permit were taken on it.
> Thanks for the tips.


Nice going caddis! Glad the _Gotcha_ worked for you too.

Yeah, I tied the _Rat_ with orange also. I use orange marabou for the tail and wing, instead of the yellow calf's tail. Then if I want to get fancy, I incorporate a little tuft of electric blue calf's tail "cheeks," right where the clipped head meets the spun deer hair. Half of this tuft will be clipped and the other half will stay long, just like the spun stuff. Finished, the fly resembles a salt water "sculpin" (local moniker) that mutton snappers target when they are following sting rays on the flats. I even call the fly the _Mutton Rat_.

I think I remember seeing that fly with the crab-claw tail, now many years ago in a Cabela's catalog. Should be sort of a cloth-like material that's hard to tear; thus it's pretty durable. I'm betting it was so long ago that your buddies passed it off as a secret fly, because they might not be available anymore. But like I said, those Mexican/Belizean permit seem to eat a much wider range of flies than they will in the Keys and probably the Bahamas too.


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