# Went to the range today



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Kind of ashamed so far as to how the gun is shooting. I busted all the glass out of the stock a few days ago and re bedded it. Made sure the barrel was totally free floating. The ammo is 50 gr Barnes TTSX with 22.3 gr of RL10. Remington primers and Winchester once fired brass.A Leupold 3X9 scope. Its gonna take some work but it looks like it was beginning to tighted up. Gun settling in the new stock towards the last 3 shots. Shooting a stock Remington model 7 with that little skinney barrel with only a 1X12 twist which I believe is my main problem. Notice the vertical disbursement in the early shots.. Gonna take some more work.. Oh well I guess thats fun.. (sort of)


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

What, no one is gonna badmouth my shootin ??


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## deckh (Jul 23, 2010)

Charlie, No bad mouth. Have you tried torquing the action bolts? I have found that torquing the bolts effects accuracy. Front and back bolts have different torque settings. Good luck. The amount of torque depends on the stock--wood, "plastic," or fiberglass, glass bedded, pillar bedded, or aluminum bedding block, etc.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

deckh

Thanks but yes sir I have dont all that. Really the gun shoots good with 40 gr bullets but not worth a dern with 50 or above. I am convinced its the twist rate 1X12 is not enough..


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

Did you put a chronograph on those loads?


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Bobby M

No sir no crony.. just Barnes reloading manual


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## Pocketfisherman (May 30, 2005)

I've been reading about a pretty interesting methodology for load development that says the load with the lowest velocity deviations is not necessarily the most accurate load. I don't have any direct experience with it yet, but am going to give it a try. You can read about the Optimum Charge Weight methodology on this site. There are multiple pages of info, so go beyond the first page: http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Pocketfisherman

Thanks for the information. Interesting reading. I believe it's all the same but now has been given a new name (OCW). Regarding seating depth, power, different charges, different primers, well all the variables. Yes, what it amounts to is to try and make the bullet leave the barrel with the barrel in the same place every time. It was preached to me years ago the you should visualize the barrel as a water hose that actually moves (which it does) when the bullet is fired. The heavier the barrel the less "movement" therefore "bull barrels" The little skinney "hunting" barrels move like a piece of spaghetti. IMHO which means nothing. Good shooting


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## Wolf6151 (Jun 13, 2005)

What caliber rifle is this? Shooting at 50 gr. bullet, I'm assuming it's some version of a .22 cal. (.223, 22-250, etc..) That 1-12 twist rate is awfully slow and explains the better groups with lighter bullets. Rebarreling to a faster twist would help but do you want to put that much money into it, or just stick with the lighter bullets? I'd like to see some high speed camera action of a sporter/skinny barrel during firing, it would be interesting how much that barrel moves.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

wolf6151

I agree with you on this one. I have been through all the different ways in order to get this gun to shoot. Especially with the Barnes bullets they are longer than the lead types. By the way it is a 223. Decided some time back it was the twist rate and have been kinda looking for an Remington barrel that has been removed from a 700 and replaced by some "high dollar" barrel. Havent found one yet.. I need at least a 1X9 twist the 1X12 just doesent get it done. At least not to my satisfaction. I hunt with the little gun and have found not one other bullet will do the job like the Barnes so thats why I am trying so hard to get it to shoot better. In reality its shoots good enough to hunt but I am not happy with it. Regarding the barrel flexing I guess it 
could be seen with the right camera.. Vibrate mite be a better word than flexing. 

Thanks


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

sometimes there's just too many variables for science to work. Then we have to use faith or the force or prayer to come up with the best load.

....I'll take luck over skill any day.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Amen Bobby


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

Charlie I think you will find a good load. The barrel may be getting hot because its thin? And with that twist rate you may be chasing your tail with the heavier bullets. I haven't tried the non lead rounds yet but I have read that they are sensitive to seating depth. Maybe you need to play with that more. 

I have seen the low ES and SD numbers have poor accuracy in some of my loads. Maybe because they are going too slow and the bullet has not stabilized yet? Anyways I don't really pay attention to it when I am testing for accuracy. I shoot 5 round groups for testing. Once I find a good load I will test it again several times and shoot it over the chrono to record the data. I have one 308 load for example with a 175 Sierra. It groups like **** at 100 yards (around 1-1.25 MOA), but at 600-1000 it is amazing. 2700fps and really high ES and SD numbers but it will be sub MOA at long range. I went crazy trying to figure it out and just tried it at distance and smiled.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Bamtan 1

I think chasing my tail is pretty close. I have tried the seating depth game too. I think I have tried just about everything and think the 1X12 is the main problem. I just dont want to get too light with my hunting round. I think I can make the 50 Gr Barnes TSX work Ok. I was shooting the 50 Gr polimer tip which is longer so I am going back to the plain ole Barnes TSX. I shot the 53 Gr TSX last year (hunting) bullet was deadly but accuracy not too good but acceptable.. Thanks for the input. I will be looking for a barrel (not too hard) with say a 1X9 twist and think that will fix mst of the problems..


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

I have not shot any of those specific bullets, but everything I've heard suggests it may be a twist rate issue and for any given weight, those bullets need a faster twist than other offerings.

So, how about the mid weight soft points and hunting bullets from sierra or hornady or nosler? Is the increase in accuracy worth the potential decrease in terminal performance? 

For barrels, if we are talking factory, I would wager most all of them are slower twist on the used market or from "take offs." Aftermarket may not be worth the expense relative to just buying a used complete weapon. But, if I was looking for a used or take off barrel, I would be calling gunshops that specialize in building kick a varmt. guns on the remmington receivers.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

try a sierra spitzer soft seat a bullet to get your head space right

don't max out the loads, try 2 back from max as a start, hot loads open groups


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Earnest

There are a few 1X9 barrels available in 223 from Remington. I think maybe I am being a little too anal with the round it will work OK for hunting. I have been through almost every other manufacturer of bullets in the 22 cal and find none that really work as the Barnes does. That is why I have spent soo much time trying to make it work to my satisfaction. Hopefully I will find a takeoff as you said that someone was having a kick A rifle made. I understand a 700 barrel with work on the Model 7. 

Coastaloutfitters

Been there and done that regarding all different types of loads. The lead bullets shoot better but just dont perform. I understand behind the ear always works but dont always have that shot. The Barnes works any place.


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## twang56 (Nov 21, 2010)

*From the Cheap Seats*

Besides all the obvious have you tried deeper seating of the bullet. As Barnes are usually long for caliber they react somewhat different.

I really had a tough time getting Barnes bullets to shoot out of my ARs until i discovered seating them deeper. For some reason the jump to the lands really stabilized them and shrunk the groups dramatically. I orignally began based on what Barnes suggested as the jump but mine are several thousants farther off the lands than their suggested starting point. Pressure on what i loaded is not near max so i had no problem with pressure build up with the deeper seating. 
Tried the same thing with an old rechambered .222 to .223 Mod 70 that has a 14-1 and it improved the accuracy just the same.

Love those Barnes .224


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

No way around it Charlie... you need to go buy a new gun and scope....maybe two.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Twang56..
You should have seen the groups before seating deeper. Barnes recommends up to 50 thousandths off the lands.

Bobby
You want to co sign my note ??


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

@Charlie - Only if I can move in with you. One more gun debt at my house will have to be settled by the lawyers or the undertaker.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Instead of starting a new thread can I just hijacked yours Charlie?
After reading I'm gathering a heavier bullet will stabilize better in say a 1.9 twist barrel. Right now I'm looking at Barnes' either 62 grain or 55 grain, and the Nosler Partition 60 grain for a hinting bullet in my DPMS AR. My question is how much difference will the FB of the partition make out to 500 versus a BT. And, what would yall lean towards? I may just buy a box of all of them.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

No problem with me Spurgersalty

I wouldnt go past a 55 in the Barnes because a 55 in a Barnes is almost as long as a 60 in a partition. I always liked BT's at longer ranges but I think it wouldnt make that much difference in performance. ( a little but not much). I dont think the animal you shot would know any diff. I am very partial to Barnes. Seen they work at any velocity..fast or slow.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks Charlie. I've been impressed with noslers for a while but have leaned to Barnes more so. I'm gonna order a box of 55 tsx, and a box of the partitions (I'm dead set on trying them out) I only wish they had a .22 accubond out. 
Your info regarding the length of the 62 gr Barnes reitterated what I found previously about the 6.5mm, too much case "protrusion" as far as I'm concerned. I'm still new at this and am scared to death of a pressure spike due to this. Catastrophe averted...


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## ATE_UP_FISHERMAN (Jun 25, 2004)

not bad for 200 yards.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Case protrusion? What? 

Even running 77 BTHP's, you still have room for 25 grains of powder. 

With 69's in a BTHP, people are regularly running up to 26 grains of varget. Further, crunch time when loading stuff like Varget is really no big deal. In a number of applications, it is run at weights beyond crunch. 

So, if case protrusion is truly an issue, drop down to a slightly faster powder, be it N135, H335, BLC#2, or even N133. But, I don't think it will be an issue. 

Plus, the chamber on that DPMS should have a ton of leade (if its 5.56). It should easily run well beyond mag length before it has any jam on the lands with most any bullet other than round nosed style projectiles.


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

I run the Hornady 75 BTHP in my AR. That is a long projectile and I have never had any issues with running a lot of powder in the case. Sure the round crunches the powder a little when seating it but it hasn't caused any problems. Like Ernest said there is room for more powder in the case. I'm running 24 grains of Varget in Lake City brass with that load and it has been safe. I have read some guys are using 24.5-25 grains safely. I don't see the need because my load is accurate and I am not going to gain much velocity with .5-1 grain increase.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Okay maybe I read too much. It's just I've read in a couple of books like The ABCs of reloading about seating depth (too deep) causing pressure spikes, this is the root of my concerns. I feel a little better about it now. Thanks again.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Oh yeah, Ernest, I guess I made up a phrase. Couldn't think of another descriptive term other than "case protrusion" - bullet base protruding deeply into case.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

No, I understood exactly what you were saying. I think case protrusion is an accurate term. I'm not taking issue with the term, I'm taking issue with any reason for concern with that caliber and that weapon. 

Buy a cheap mag insert from Sinclair, and you can run those babies real long single loaded. You may also find that single loading will tighten your groups considerably, relative to loading the first round out of the mag. Particularly, the first round. In hunting, thats kinda the important one.


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

If you seat the bullet too far into the case then yes you could have a problem. That is why there is always a OAL listed. Some bullets will be too long to load to magazine length such as the 75 AMAX. Some loads like to be close to the lands and I think that's why Ernest suggested this.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Ernest also suggested this because, in _some_ AR's, one will find that the flyer in most groups is often the first shot (even if the barrel is fouled). This is alleged to result from the 1st round being manually chambered by hitting the bolt release, while the remaining shots are loaded by the semi action.

So, many shooters use a sled and single load all the rounds. Thus, all the rounds are chambered the same.

If you are shooting over mag length, again the sled makes this easy and prevents rounds from being mis aligned and slammed into the extension.


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