# Help on Bullet Selection



## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

Well, I bought the .260 Remington (in a model 7) about 2 years ago. I wanted a single rilfe that I could hunt almost anything with, varmint up to deer/hogs.

To do this, I worked up two loads that I like. Both use the same H4350 powder and the same number of grains of powder. The only difference is the bullet.

I've been shooting the 85gr Sierra Hollow Point for varmint/small pigs and the 129gr Hornady SST for deer/large pigs. Both perform quite well.

However, I'm almost out of the hollow point rounds (yeah, that means I've shot 50 in the last 18 months) and need to make a purchase. So I'm considering a different bullet. I'm looking at the 95gr Hornady V-Max.

The bullets are a bit different, though similar in weight. The V-Max is not a hollow point and has a boat tail, giving it a better BC (0.365 vs 0.225). The SD is also slightly better (0.195 vs 0.174).

So my question is, for varmint/small game, is there going to be much of a difference on impact between the two? The HP still penetrated pretty well, were good "vaporizers" for very small game, but didn't do too much damage to larger "small game". (Example, I shot a bobcat a few weeks ago. Clean kill and not too much damage, 1-2" entry hole and 3" or so exit). I guess what I'm asking is, will the "trauma" be more or less?

I normally don't take shots out past 300 yards or so.

Below are comparisons of how I expect the loads to compare. I haven't loaded the 95 gr, so obviously I haven't chronoed the load. I just guessed at the velocity. The green line is the proposed load, the other two are my current loads.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

V-Max's tend to fragment pretty well at decent velocities. For min. pelt damage on small stuff, think FMJ.


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

What I found with the VMax for distance shooting is that they still drop as much as a regular HP bullet. I used them in my .308 and had the exact same drop at 850 yards as the Sierra Match King. Hornady claims less drift and drop but I found otherwise. It seemed to have the same ballistics as my Sierras. As far as for hunting I would think they would be okay but they do fragment a little.

I found this on Hornady's LE site. It shows the round in the ballistic gel block. You can see what the round does. This is for a 155 grain .308 and not a .260.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail.php?id=72&sID=79&pID=2


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## cabosandinh (Jun 7, 2007)

V-Max are good bullets, i've dropped deer at 200 yds with it, I have also ruined
half the backstrap on does at 100yds .... I hit bone and it EXPLODED

consistent accuracy, and deadly performer, just make sure to take neck shots or
stay away from bones


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## davidb (May 10, 2006)

All of those bullets are on the frangible side although the SST's were supposed to be improved over the original. I would shoot game kings or other bullets intended for deer not varmints.


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

Thanks for the advice guys. A 15 in difference at 500 yards seemed a bit extreme to me (considering the other two rounds were only 5" apart).

I've chornoed and tested the other two rounds (85gr HP and 129gr SST) and my results seem to match closely with the predictions. We were out over thanksgiving shooting at 400 yards and I needed about 30" of holdover to be on target. Was about the same at 500 yards for both the

Still, I'm tempted to give the V-Max a try. I guess what I'll do is go ahead and buy both the HPs and the V-Max. Bullets don't go bad I guess!

When the bullets arrive, I'll load them up an post up some results for comparison as far as the ballistics are concerned.

Unfortunately, though, I don't have any "ballistics gel". So until I try it on some game, I still don't know if my terminal question is answered.


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

How to make your own ballistics gel:

http://www.myscienceproject.org/gelatin.html


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

cabosandinh said:


> V-Max are good bullets, i've dropped deer at 200 yds with it, I have also ruined
> half the backstrap on does at 100yds .... I hit bone and it EXPLODED
> 
> consistent accuracy, and deadly performer, just make sure to take neck shots or
> stay away from bones


Ding ding! Well, I bought the bullets and worked up a pretty good round for them. Good groups, chronoed very close to what the original ballistics I calculated were. Overall, a great round as far as trajectory, drop, etc. are concerned. Performed as expected.

However, in terms of terminal performance, so far I have to give them a FAIL.

In the past I have been shooting 129gr SSTs and 85gr hollow points with great success. I've shot dozens of pigs with them and never had any issues, regardless of whether I was aiming for the head/neck or the engine room (even with the 85gr bullet). In fact, last year I shot a 170lb boar with the 85gr in the shoulder (not directly on bone), dropped him in his tracks at 150 yards.

This weekend was another story. Having poked holes in paper with much success, I finally got around to using the 95 grain on hogs. I shot two this weekend. Both were, what I thought, good shots. Low wind, good visibility, plenty of time to squeeze the trigger, good rests.

Two hogs were shot, two hogs went down, two hogs went unrecovered.

The first one I thought, maybe I had missed? It was only a 100 yard shot and I didn't hear the tell-tell "thwack". OK. But the second shot was closer to 200 yards and I definitely heard the "thwack" and saw the pig go down, only to get up and run off moments later after it recovered from being, what I assume, stunned by a round that didn't really penetrate.

So maybe it's back to the 129gr SST or the 85gr HP...as of now I don't have a lot of confidence in this round; I don't want head shots to be a "must" since they're not always the best/easiest choice, especially a dusk or at night.

Will try again before I write them off completely; this time with a more precise shot placement. I'd like to see what they do up close and not have to "assume".


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

Bantam1 said:


> What I found with the VMax for distance shooting is that they still drop as much as a regular HP bullet. I used them in my .308 and had the exact same drop at 850 yards as the Sierra Match King. Hornady claims less drift and drop but I found otherwise. It seemed to have the same ballistics as my Sierras. As far as for hunting I would think they would be okay but they do fragment a little.
> 
> I found this on Hornady's LE site. It shows the round in the ballistic gel block. You can see what the round does. This is for a 155 grain .308 and not a .260.
> 
> http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail.php?id=72&sID=79&pID=2


And Bantam, what I found was that the drop was significantly less than the HP. I only shot out to 400 yards and, well, my groups start getting quite a bit bigger out there. Still, they were coming in consistently higher at 400 yards (about 6-8"). Inside of 200 I couldn't tell a difference; the groups overlapped.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

If you are loading 129's and 85's with the same powder charge and the same powder, you are missing the boat on the 129's or the 85's. Those two projectiles have significantly different weights and bearing surfaces. 

Couple other inexpensive options in the 6.5 are the 129 soft points, the 120 Rem. core locks, and the Speer Hot-Core 120's. On the varmt. end, the Speer TNT 90's and the Sierra 100's.


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

Ernest,

Thanks for the recommendations. I'd been using H4350 for both rounds because, well, it seems to work and has been used by others for each. The recommended load of H4350 for each round is within 1.5gr, so I found a single number that worked well for both and went with it. Normally I only load 20-30 rounds at a time (not enough brass yet) and load half of each, so setting everything up once makes life easier. Just convenience I guess, but you may be right. Some other guys like a little faster burning powder for the 85gr, most preferring H414. Maybe I should give it a try; it's just easy to use the same powder for both.

But I like your recommendations. Ballistic tip-like bullets in this gun may not be the best choice. Hornady advertises V-Max bullets as having "explosive expansion"; I guess I should have paid more attention to the advertisement, because I would say it is dead on. Much more "explosive" than the 85gr JHPs. The SSTs seem to work quite well, but they aren't supposed to expand quite as quickly as the V-Max. 

So the V-Max doesn't seem to be an acceptable bullet for pigs. I was hoping to find a single bullet I could carry outside of deer season. If that bullet exists, this is not it.

But maybe a soft point like the Rem core-lokts or the Speer Hot-Core would be a better choice. Nosler has a 100gr partition, maybe that's a better choice. I guess I'll give one of them a try next! This gun (and reloading in general) are still fairly new to me. No better way to learn than experiment I guess.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

The min. recommended charge of H4350 with a 95 V-Max (47) significantly exceeds the max charge for a 125 Nosler Partition (44.3). This is using Hogdon's data. So, if you are shooting 85's and 129's, the spread is even greater. 

Neck up/neck down. Next to .223, .308 is cheapest rifle brass around. 

Nosler BT and Nosler Partitions use the same load data (for the same weight) most of the time. So, experiment with the BT, and then fine tune with the partitions to save cash (assuming you are not on the edge, pushing the max.) 

For the big hogs at relatively close ranges, go to the Swede type loads with old school 140's and 160 in a round nose. F this fancy designer bullet *****. Its nothing but fan boy bravo sierra anyway. Those round noses have been hammering tough skinned game for well over a 100 years. Penetration and controlled expansion. Plus, they are great in brush or thick cover.


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

Ernest said:


> The min. recommended charge of H4350 with a 95 V-Max (47) significantly exceeds the max charge for a 125 Nosler Partition (44.3). This is using Hogdon's data. So, if you are shooting 85's and 129's, the spread is even greater.
> 
> Neck up/neck down. Next to .223, .308 is cheapest rifle brass around.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I've been starting with the recommendations that came with my die (Lee Collet Neck); I want to say that the "max" for the 85gr HP was 45ish and the "max" for the 129gr SST 43.5. The "max" listed, I believe, is actually 10% under, but I'd have to look to be sure. I could be remembering wrong, who knows. And this may not be the best reference in the world to be using. I went with 44gr on each (which seems to work fine). I've got some new brass on the way, so you're right, I should start trying to maximize the performance of each.

Going back to brass, I need to go out and get a FL sizing die. Availibility of .243 and .308 brass was one of the reasons I wasn't concerned about this odd-ball caliber. But I need a FL die not just for resizing new brass; I'm beginning to realize that the brass I currently have needs to be run through the FL die every so often. The latest batch has been a little difficult to get the ejector around the rim (bolt slides full forward but difficult to close). My guess is that I need to back the shoulder up a bit. I just ran into this last week, so I haven't been able to measure anything. I've fired through this brass about 6-7 times now, so I guess it's understandable.

As for Nordic bullets, I was looking at the Norma 156gr "Oryx". Seems like that would take care of them for sure. It's not a round nose, but packs a wallup. Those round noses are serious; anything that gets named "sledghammer" should do the trick!

Have you had any experience with solid bullets, like what Barnes makes? They make a 110gr bullet in 6.5mm. Seems like that would elminate any penetration concerns.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Sorry, did not mean to abandon you. 

No experince with Barnes for me, although there is no shortage of Barnes fans on this board and others. 

My view, if it can't be killed with a soft point or round nosed bullet traveling at an appropriate speed, I brought the wrong gun or I must be shooting Bigfoot. 

Then again, I have yet to hunt the Blue Bulls down south. Want to, but the dollars are high, and then I would have a meat storage/eating issue.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

I have to echo what others have said. The V in v max stands for varmint. Why use a varmint bullet on a HOG which has that big old thick shield right in the boiler room. I'll bet that hog that went down and ran off had a big splatter on his shield, and the shock knocked him down, but it didn't penetrate. You didn't say how big that hog was, but I would venture to say it wasn't a piglet. Anythinn will kill a piglet.

As has been said just use any good deer type bullet. A hog is a big game animal as larger or larger than a lot of deer that are killed out there- especially in the hill country, and it deserves respect..

Also, as was mentioned I know every fur hunter out there who read your assessment of the pelt damage of 1-1/2" going in and 3" going out as not being very bad- they all cringed. That's actually horrible pelt damage. I'm going on a coyote hunt/camping trip in the colorado rockies this summer with my son, and I'm still trying to decide between fmj's and something like a tnt which will explode after entry but blow up inside.

Good luck,

THE JAMMER


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

Thanks Ernest and Jammer; I guess I was just surprised at just how "explosive" the V-Max was. The pigs were in the 100-120lb range, and I think you're right on what happened. Normally I use the 129gr SST for hogs (and deer) and it works really well but is overkill for smaller critters. By the numbers, the V-Max carries the same "energy" as the larger SST, which made me think I could get by with just one bullet during the "off" season when not shooting at deer. But I guess it's proof that energy isn't everything!

I can see where the 1.5-3" holes is a lot of pelt damage. I'm not a fur hunter, and, you've got me thinking that I had actually used the SST. I was deer hunting in San Saba (walking) when I stumbled across that guy (it was startling, he was stalking something about 20' away and never saw me). I don't think I would have been carrying the HPs in this instance.

The whole point was that I was trying to find "one" bullet that would replace the two that I had. An effort in futility I guess! The 110gr Barnes solids and the 154gr Swedish killer (Norma Oryx) arrived on Friday. So now I've got 5 rounds! Instead of decreasing my options I more than double them! 85, 95, 110, 129, and 154. Ah well.

I think I've beat this thread for all it's worth. Thanks for all your opinions and responses.

Luke


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## davidb (May 10, 2006)

Some others I would try are the Berger 130gr and the 129-130 Hornaday Interbond.

The Berger is super accurate and works on larger varmints/predators and would also work on Hogs and Deer for broadside shots. The Interbond is a bonded tougher version of the SST that usually will shoot the same as the SST.

The Vmax is designed to shatter to reduce ricochets.


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