# Read this and let TPWL know what you think before it is too late.



## JimD (May 25, 2004)

It is cold but if you cannot fish take a minute to read Railbird's on going arguments with some of the new members that in favor of closing some of our bays to boaters. There is a lot of posts ~100 on the Smoking Gun thread.

IF YOU DO NOT CALL OR EMAIL TEXAS P AND W WITH YOUR OPINIONS ON THIS CLOSURE OF 15,000 ACRES THEN YOU COULD HAVE PART OF THE MIDCOAST BAYS CLOSED TO YOUR MOTORIZED CRAFT.

HERE ARE THREE ARTICLES INC DAVID SIKES OUTDOORS WRITER FOR CC PAPER on this topic for you to look at.

If deemed good that location then you could see this happen in Matagorda or Galveston Bay systems just as easily.

http://www.caller.com/news/2011/nov/17/texas-parks-and-wildlife-seek-public-opinion-on/

http://www.statesman.com/sports/out...ut-a-proposed-1960028.html#.TsFNnBnZoyU.email

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20111102b&nrtype=all&nrspan=2011&nrsearch


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## blackmagic (May 13, 2011)

Thanks for the info!


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

JimD said:


> CLOSURE OF 15,000 ACRES


Poor choice of words, there JimD.

The proposed JFK SSA is a seagrass management area where you can run your boat as you please as long as you're not tearing up the seagrass.

There's no "closure".

That's just more fear mongering and paranoid conjecture on your part.


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## blackmagic (May 13, 2011)

saltangler said:


> Poor choice of words, there JimD.
> 
> The proposed JFK SSA is a seagrass management area where you can run your boat as you please as long as you're not tearing up the seagrass.
> 
> ...


 Please dont pick the guy apart,he is only trying to help us.......


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## pafisherman (Dec 6, 2010)

*Closure??*



JimD said:


> THIS CLOSURE OF 15,000 ACRES


As long as you are spreading misinformation why don't you include this image as well.

http://www.safetysign.com/images/catlog/product/large/F7801.png

Or since it's cold, why not this one.

http://www.safetysign.com/images/catlog/product/large/F7803.png

:headknock


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## chugger (Jul 12, 2009)

"Read this and let TPWL know what you think before it is too late."

Hmmm --- 
That L key is no where near to the D key.
What happened there JimD -- past your bed time?


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

chugger said:


> "Read this and let TPWL know what you think before it is too late."
> 
> Hmmm ---
> That L key is no where near to the D key.
> What happened there JimD -- past your bed time?


wow your a word cop and a tool.

:cop::cop::cop::cop:


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## Smackdaddy53 (Nov 4, 2011)

I am all for protecting the ecosystem...its pretty plain that they just want people to stop tearing up seagrass with shallow draft boats. Ive seen it many times instead of going around a shallow grass bed they just shortcut across and its not always necessary. Shallow draft boats are nice but as with anything they can be abused. Ive been kayaking many times and have had guys run so close by me in 8" of water that it tossed my gear. Im not taking sides and havent read all 200+ posts but i do understand what TPWD is trying to do.


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## trackatrout (Aug 10, 2010)

You can let them know what you think here: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/busines...nt/proposals/201201_jfk_scientific_area.phtml


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## blackmagic (May 13, 2011)

pafisherman said:


> As long as you are spreading misinformation why don't you include this image as well.
> 
> http://www.safetysign.com/images/catlog/product/large/F7801.png
> 
> ...





chugger said:


> "Read this and let TPWL know what you think before it is too late."
> 
> Hmmm ---
> That L key is no where near to the D key.
> What happened there JimD -- past your bed time?


 Wow i bet that made yall feel better, the guy is only trying to help us.


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## chugger (Jul 12, 2009)

reeltimer said:


> wow your a word cop and a tool.
> 
> :cop::cop::cop::cop:


Take it easy --
No offense intended -- just trying to add some levity.


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

The negative environmental consequences of plowing through shallow flats should be clear by now. The legal consequences include fines as high as $500 for uprooting any submerged aquatic vegetation, though fewer than 20 citations and 30 warnings have been issued.

This about sums it up from the CC caller.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

blackmagic said:


> Wow i bet that made yall feel better, the guy is only trying to help us.


Sorry guys their only defense is attack the messenger. The only reason any environmental impacts are mentioned in this is the leverage they believe it gives them. LIFA is about a private members only playground, plain and simple. It is a huge land grab from the local fishery.


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## chugger (Jul 12, 2009)

railbird said:


> Sorry guys their only defense is attack the messenger. The only reason any environmental impacts are mentioned in this is the leverage they believe it gives them. LIFA is about a private members only playground, plain and simple. It is a huge land grab from the local fishery.


If you want to read for yourself what WPP actually thinks -- rather than Railbird's warped interpretations and misconceptions ---

http://wadepaddlepole.net/index.html

Here is our concept for a LIFA definition taken from the above web site:

_______________

A LIFA would be a defined managerial area located within the Texas inland coastal waters. A LIFA would be open to all users and methods of access, however running motorized craft outside of designated access lanes would be prohibited. The engine of a motorized craft must be turned off and raised if possible. The use of electric trolling motors in these areas would be allowed. The use of motorized craft during duck seasons, and for a designated time period before and after duck season would be allowed.

The purpose of a LIFA is to provide a managerial model to conserve and protect sensitive natural resources located within areas managed by the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department under their code 13.01, and to discourage destructive and/or disruptive human behavior within such areas.

Pursuant to Texas Parks & Wildlife code / chpt. 61 / subchpt A / 61.002, the establishment of a LIFA is "to insure reasonable and equitable enjoyment of the privileges of ownership and pursuit of wildlife resources".

________________

I do not see anything in the above definition and stated purpose which states that WPP is seeking to buy or lease state owned property from the Tx. General Land Office to establish a "private members only playground". 
Speaking of playgrounds -- Railbird - Do you play golf at a public or private course? I bet both have rules established to protect the course from damage and to promote civility and fair use between players.

--- and speaking of, "attack the messenger"
You and others here have been attacking WPP, using any and all tactics, for over 2 years now.
One of WPP's main missions is to deliver a simple MESSAGE : 
Coastal anglers need to start looking at ways to deal with an increasing number of bay users and the impacts associated with that increasing use.


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

reeltimer said:


> fewer than 20 citations and 30 warnings have been issued.


And that's not because people suddenly got religion and quit running the flats when the RFBSSA was established.

It's because many of the citations written by Game Wardens were thrown out by the courts. The nebulous language of the RFBSSA says that you can run your boat as long as you're not tearing up the grass.

The local judges further demanded that the wardens must provide proof that grass was destroyed. Which means they had to break their own law by running on to the flats, chasing down the offender and videotaping the prop scar and destroyed grass.

At that point, patrolling the RFBSSA became a low priority issue.

If a LIFA was established, enforcement would be simple: if you're poling, drifting, or using an electric motor, you're fine. If you're running, you're going to get a ticket.

And again I ask: where is the "kayak only playground" in the above scenario?


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## glgardnerjr (Apr 15, 2009)

I am opposed to these closure's for 3 reasons:
1. I firmly believe this is a land grab by the kayak nation which has a faction that is a bunch of extreme environmentalist akin to PETA. I love Texas for A LOT of reason's and a big reason is because it isn't California and this smell's of the extremist in that state trying to dictate how I should live. I've read the web-site and it scared me enough to make sure I commented to TP&W. 
2. There is so much marsh and back water that you CAN'T get to with a shallow running boat that is already the exclusive playground of the kayaker's and wader's for the simple reason that there is no other way to access it that I can't possibly see that they need more exclusive water for themselves.
3. Much like the NRA's stance on gun control I understand that once you give up a small concession the floodgates will open and you will lose it all.


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## biglake411 (Jan 5, 2010)

*more info*


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## biglake411 (Jan 5, 2010)

Last evening the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (TPWD) held one of several "scoping" meeting on the possibility of making the Upper Laguna Madre (ULM) a new State Scientific Area (SSA) like they did in Redfish Bay. The proposal can be found at: www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20111102b Click on *New Images* shown in blue at the end of this sentence to see the map of the area under consideration. *News Images **then click * *JFK Causeway Seagrass Proposal* - November 2, 2011

Following the meeting several attending asked me to provide them contact information for the TPWD commissioners, who will make the final decision and our State Representatives and Senator. Listed below is the information requested. I would strongly encourage you to contact them to express your views on the proposed ULMSSA also referred to JFKSSA.

There will be another meeting on *Tuesday - December 13, 2011* *at the Holiday Inn - North Padre Island, 15202 Windward Drive, Corpus Christi, Texas 78418 beginning at 7:00PM*. I would also encourage you to attend this meeting to let you feelings be know to the TPWD staff who will be making the presentation and seeking public comment.

The final two "scoping" meeting for the proposed ULMSSA / JFKSSA will be held on Wednesday - December 14, 2011 at the Port Isabel Community Center, 213 Yturria, Port Isabel, Texas 78578. It will also start at 7:00PM. and Thursday - December 15, 2011 at the TPWD Headquarters, Commission Hearing Room, 4200 Smith School Road, Austin, Texas.

Please pass this information on to anyone you feel would be interested in this TPWD proposal. You also might be interested in reading these two articles by David Sikes, Outdoors writer for the Corpus Christi Caller-Times: http://www.caller.com/news/2011/nov/17/texas-parks-and-wildlife-seek-public-opinion-on/ and http://www.caller.com/news/2011/dec/01/proposed-jfk-seagrass-protection-plan-meeting-sche/



Sincerely,










901 Leopard Street - Suite 303.11
Corpus Christi, Texas 78401-3689
361-888-0268 (office)
361-888-0470 (fax)


*Texas** Parks** and Wildlife Commissioners*
*The Honorable T. Dan Friedkin*
Chairman
Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
1375 Enclave Parkway
Houston, TX 77077
FAX - (713) 580-5220
Appointed to the Commission by Governor Rick Perry on May 9, 2005. On February 2, 2011, he was reappointed to a six-year term which will expire on February 1, 2017. He was named Chairman on September 1, 2011. Friedkin is Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Friedkin Group, with responsibility for companies and investments principally in the automotive industry. These include Gulf States Toyota, the world's fourth largest privately held Toyota distributorship. Friedkin is an avid outdoorsman who is active in wildlife conservation initiatives in the U.S. and abroad. He is a trustee of the Wildlife Conservation Society, a trustee of the Kinkaid School, member of the Young President's Organization, Chairman of the Air Force Heritage Flight Foundation and serves on the advisory Board of Texas A & M Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute. A graduate of Georgetown University, he received a Masters Degree from Rice University. 
​ *The Honorable Ralph H. Duggins*
Vice-Chairman
Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
600 W. Sixth, Suite 300
Fort Worth, TX 76102
FAX - (817) 877-2807
Appointed to the Commission by Governor Rick Perry on February 21, 2008 to a six year term which will expire on February 1, 2013, Ralph Duggins is a native of Jefferson City, Missouri. He is a partner with the Fort Worth, Southlake and Dallas law firm, Cantey Hanger LLP, where he specializes in civil and commercial litigation. He is a graduate of Southern Methodist University and of the University of Missouri Law School. Duggins has been a member of the Texas Supreme Court Advisory Committee since 1999, is a Director of Lena Pope Foundation, and a Director of the Southwestern Exposition and Livestock Show. He is a former Director of Lena Pope Home and JP Morgan Chase Bank Tarrant County. He previously served as Chair of the Board of Cook Childrens Healthcare System. Duggins is an avid fly fisherman and hunter.
​ *The Honorable Antonio Falcon, M.D.*
Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
2768 Pharmacy Road
Rio Grande City, TX 78582
FAX - (956) 487-5862
Appointed to the Commission by Governor Rick Perry on August 14, 2007 to a six-year term which will expire on February 1, 2013. Antonio Falcon, M.D. is a graduate of Baylor College of Medicine. Dr. Falcon is a Family Physician and the medical director of the Family Health Center LLP in Rio Grande City. He is a presidential appointee to the United States Mexico Border Health Commission and clinical assistant professor in the Department of family medicine at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. He serves on the Board of Directors of the Texas Medical Association Political Action Committee and on the Board of Directors of the Texas Medical Foundation Institute of Health Quality. He also serves on the Texas Medical Associations ad hoc committee on Medicaid and has served on numerous other organized medicine committees.
​ *The Honorable Karen J. Hixon*
Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
111 West Lynwood
San Antonio, TX 78212
FAX - (210) 225-5910
Appointed to the Commission by Governor Rick Perry on August 14, 2007 to a six-year term which will expire on February 1, 2013. Karen Hixon serves on the board of the Peregrine Fund based in Boise, Idaho. She is on the advisory board for the Trust for Public Land and the Mitchell Lake Audubon Center. She is a past Texas advisory member for Environmental Defense and past docent chairman of the San Antonio Zoological Society. Additionally, Ms. Hixon is a past board member of the Texas Nature Conservancy and the Texas Parks and Wildlife Foundation. She is the chairman of the board of trustees of the San Antonio Museum of Art and vice-chair of the board of the Amon Carter Museum in Fort Worth. She received her Bachelor's degree from Smith College.
​ *The Honorable Dan Allen Hughes, Jr.*
Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
P. O. Box 14
Beeville, TX 78104
Fax: 361-881-1686
Appointed to the Commission by Governor Rick Perry on June 4, 2009 to a six-year term which will expire on February 1, 2015. Hughes is president of Dan A. Hughes Company, LP and president of Hupecol Operating Company, LLC. He is a member of the Texas A&M University College of Geosciences Advisory Council and Sul Ross State University Borderlands Research Institute Advisory Board. He is also a member of the All American Wildcatters. He received his Bachelor's degree from Texas A&M University. 
​ *The Honorable Bill Jones*
Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
100 Congress Avenue, Suite 2000
Austin, TX 78701
FAX: (512) 469-6306
Appointed to the Commission by Governor Rick Perry on September 1, 2011 to a six-year term which will expire on February 1, 2017, Bill Jones is owner of The Jones Firm and co-owner of AFCI Texas, LLC. He previously served as General Counsel for Governor Rick Perry and is active in Texas A&M University serving on the Corps of Cadets Development Council Advisory Panel and is a former member of the TAMU Board of Regents. He is past president of Texas Young Lawyers Association and a former member of the State Bar of Texas Board of Directors Executive Committee. He was selected as Baylor Young Lawyer of the Year in 1997 and Texas Super Lawyer in 2005, 2006, and 2007. Jones has served on numerous boards and is a current member of Memorial Hermann Continuing Care, Memorial Hermann Public Policy Advisory Group, and Executive Board Member of Austin Chamber of Commerce. He received his bachelor's degree from Texas A&M University and his law degree from Baylor University Law School.
​ *The Honorable Margaret Martin*
Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
215 West Bandera Road, Suite 114-619
Boerne, TX 78006
Appointed to the Commission by Governor Rick Perry on August 14, 2007. Margaret Martin of Boerne is a self-employed consultant, rancher, and a tea brokerage exporter. She is a member of the Soil Conservation Association of Webb County, Texas Realty Association, San Antonio Free Trade Alliance and National Association of Realtors. She is chair of the Webb County AgriLife Extension's Leadership Advisory Commission and Natural Resource Commission. Martin received a bachelor's degree from Laredo State University.
​ *The Honorable S. Reed Morian*
Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
300 Jackson Hill
Houston, TX 77007
Fax: 713-863-8202
Appointed to the Commission by Governor Rick Perry on February 5, 2009 to a six-year term which will expire on February 1, 2015. Morian serves as Chairman/CEO of DX Service Company, Inc. in Houston. He is very active in the Houston community, serving on the Board of the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo and past Chairman of the Houston Parks Board and the Houston Museum of Natural Science. He received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Oklahoma. 
​ *The Honorable **Dick** Scott* 
Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
P.O. Box 2489
Wimberly, TX 78676
FAX - (713) 453-2756
Appointed to the Commission by Governor Rick Perry on February 1, 2011 to a six-year term which will expire on February 1, 2017. Dick Scott is co-owner of Trans-Global Solutions Inc., a railroad transportation company. He is a member of Delta Sigma Pi and the Boys and Girls Country Executive Committee. He is also a volunteer contributor for the Hays County FFA and 4H clubs and a Lifetime member of the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo and serves on their International Committee. He previously served on the Lower Colorado River Authority Board from 2009 through 2010. Scott received a bachelor's degree from Lamar University.
​ *The Honorable Lee Marshall Bass*
Chairman-Emeritus
Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
201 Main Street
Fort Worth, TX 76102
FAX - (817) 390-8408
Appointed to the Commission by Governor William P. Clements, Jr. on February 20, 1989 to a six-year term. On February 24, 1995, he was named Chairman and reappointed for another six-year by Governor George W. Bush. On August 29, 2001, he was named Chairman-Emeritus by Governor Rick Perry; graduate of Yale University and the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. He serves on the boards of the Sid W. Richardson Foundation, The Peregrine Fund, the International Rhino Foundation and Vanderbilt University.
​ *
Texas House Member*

*Rep. Hunter, Todd *

*District 32*

*Email*

*Capitol Address:*

Room E2.808, Capitol Extension
P.O. Box 2910
Austin, TX 78768
(512) 463-0672
*District Address:*

15217 S.P.I.D., Suite 205
Corpus Christi, TX 78418
361-949-4603 (w)
361-949-4634 (f) 
*Texas House Member*

*Rep. Scott, Connie *

*District 34*

*Email*

*Capitol Address:*

Room E2.302, Capitol Extension
P.O. Box 2910
Austin, TX 78768 
(512) 463-0462 
(512) 463-1705 Fax 
*District Address:*

9359 IH 37
Suite D 
Corpus Christi TX 78409
(361) 241-7186
*Texas House Member*

*Rep. Torres, Raul*

*District 33*

*Email*

*Capitol Address:*

Room E2.802, Capitol Extension
P.O. Box 2910 
Austin, TX 78768 
(512) 463-0484 
(512) 463-7834 Fax 
*District Address:*

2820 South Padre Island Drive, Suite 106
Corpus Christi, Texas 78415
(361) 853-7222
(361) 853-7112 FAX

*Senator Juan "Chuy" Hinojosa: District 20*
*Occupation:* Attorney
*Education:* BS Pan American University, JD Georgetown University
*Legislative Experience:* House Member, 1981-1991/1997-2002; Senate Member (2002)
*Hometown:* McAllen
*Party:* Democrat 
The Honorable Juan "Chuy" Hinojosa
P.O. Box 12068
Capitol Station
Austin, Texas 78711
(512) 463-0120
(512) 463-0229 Fax 
612 Nolana
Suite 410B
McAllen, Texas 78504 
(956) 972-1841 
(956) 664-0602 Fax 
*District address *​ 
2820 S.P.I.D., Suite 291
Corpus Christi, TX 78415
(361) 225-1200
(361) 225-3576 
(361) 225-0119 Fax


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## bogdog (Dec 21, 2006)

railbird said:


> It is a huge land grab from the local fishery.


I gotta say I'm with ya on this one. This stinks,,,,

The only impact I have seen so far is frustration amongst the community.

Trust me, there is % of the paddling community opposed to limiting the water. I WILL SAY THAT I AM.

IMO, the funniest part of all of this is the area that has been chosen. When you look at the map that looks like the 45/59/288 intersection in Houston.......couldn't pick a higher traffic area to attempt to regulate....:headknock:headknock:headknock


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

It's gonna get tricky drifting and poling those doubled up, strung out barges through there. Either that, or one hell of a trolling motor. Remember, once you give an area up, it's for good. Just look at how well our Red Snapper regulations have worked in the last 20 years.


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## CaptDocHoliday (Feb 3, 2011)

A LIFA in the outlined area is not needed. I fished that area often, even landing my longest trout to date right in the middle of it. Using a LIFA to address an issue that would be much easier solved by enhanced Boater Education equates to using a jack-hammer to crack eggs - overkill. Taking away public rights and public access is never a good thing, and will turn fishing into what deer hunting has already become, a business. I can see it now 

"For the low low price of $xxx you can 'lease' your very own private section of bay". Pretty soon people will be setting fish feeders up and 8# trout will become 'cull' trout as larger and larger mutant fish are 'grown' on these private water leases.

What's most disappointing is the complete lack of attempting to find alternate methods to address the 'claimed' issue. Signage at boat ramps is limited, signage on the water is nearly non-existent. I've never seen a Sea-Grass Public Service Announcement, and only rarely do you see much written about proper, low impact, boating techniques. Only once every one of these avenues has been tried and proven failed, should the issue of restricting access even be discussed.


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## saltymate (Oct 1, 2011)

chugger said:


> "Read this and let TPWL know what you think before it is too late."
> 
> Hmmm ---
> That L key is no where near to the D key.
> What happened there JimD -- past your bed time?


Who cares how this guy abbreviated something on a fishing forum.


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

CaptDocHoliday said:


> A LIFA in the outlined area is not needed.


It's not a LIFA.

Read it again.


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## oneleggedwader (Dec 2, 2004)

*wow*

Verbiage does not disguise the intent.


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## kenny (May 21, 2004)

saltangler said:


> It's not a LIFA.
> 
> Read it again.


Your right it's about sea grass, for now. It's an old political technique called incrementalism. Start with something that sounds very benign, then ask for the next step because the first one didn't work very well.

The ultimate goal are enforced LIFAs. You see, today there are people that aren't satisfied with fishing and thinking the way they want. They want other people to fish and think the way they want!


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## PL (Sep 28, 2011)

Way too much derp on this thread! My only hope is that one day people burning the flats in their douchey tower boats will be a thing of the past. If LIFA's accomplish that, then I'm all for them.


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

kenny said:


> incrementalism


There's that word again. I think what this board needs is a glossary. We can call it:

The Texas Coastal Angler's Guide to Fear Monger Terminology and Paranoid Conjecture Phrases


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## JimD (May 25, 2004)

What did I do?

I asked the "real" fellow 2Coolers to read the articles and then call or *email their opinion* to the guy in charge for TPWL. I hope that all the Board send their opinion whether it agrees or disagrees with mine.

There are 3 or 4 of you "new guys" that have joined our board recently and been in a gun battle with Railbird over this issue and the REAL potential problem LIFA You have posted to Railbird's and to this post more than you ever have posted which was less than 50 posts the last time I looked. "Funny" how couple of you were here and never posted plus couple of brand new posters till this topic came up. You all need a job or possibly go back to our regular web site.

I have been on this board since at least 2004 or the last crash and I also run three of the forums for Texas Kayak Fishermen site and been on their board since ~2000 and three site crashes..

*I agree that the LIFA idea in not in the best interest of most fishermen but is being pushed by those of you with a vested interest.* *The potential LIFA problem does scare me should scare most fishermen. People with vested interests and money always scare me. *

I end with paragraphs from David Sikes's article on the LIFA.

"The other possible rule change on the horizon involves highly controversial low impact fishing areas (LIFA), which is defined by the folks *who introduced the term here as a designated area open to all fishing methods, but closed to running motorized craft.* The group endorses allowing motorized access within these areas during duck season."&#8230; The group I'm referring to is Texas Wade, Paddle and Pole, a self proclaimed growing community of ethical and responsible coastal anglers."


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## blackmagic (May 13, 2011)

JImD i was trying to help you, but these guys just had to chime in a be rude..


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## flatsmaster14 (Mar 25, 2011)

PL said:


> Way too much derp on this thread! My only hope is that one day people burning the flats in their douchey tower boats will be a thing of the past. If LIFA's accomplish that, then I'm all for them.


Should I call my aluminum guy and tell him to stop building my douchey tower? Lol


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## gray gost (Jul 8, 2010)

railbird thanks for the link. did my vote against land grab for selected few.


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## PL (Sep 28, 2011)

flatsmaster14 said:


> Should I call my aluminum guy and tell him to stop building my douchey tower? Lol


If you plan on racing up and down the flats and hearding redfish with it, then yes cancel the order and do us all a favor. If not, then feel free to do as you please.


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

I guess I don't get it ... a big area is being proposed for eel grass protection just below JFK Causeway ... nowhere else ... but down here by South Padre and Port Isabel we got eel grass coming out the wazoo. I've been hearing all kinds of crazy stories out of the Corpus area, like how their little spoil islands of dirt are such a total failures. What the heck is wrong with the people up there anyways? Do we really need some kind of TPWD science experiment that will only show the same miserable poor results you always got? 

I want to know how much all this is costing the TPWD and the State of Texas! I'll write the Governor (and presidential candidate) when I get the answer. Folks this is crazy, the TPWD is begging for us to support their parks, which are 46 million in the red, and they want to spend untold hundreds of thousands on protecting some junky waters that in the summer are quite polluted because of low dissolved oxygen. I don't believe I've ever heard of such a foolish idea in quite a long time. Fortunately the Governor has some common sense, and can kill it by calling his board members.


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

PL said:


> If you plan on racing up and down the flats and hearding redfish with it, then yes cancel the order and do us all a favor. If not, then feel free to do as you please.


Being from the atx you got a pretty shallow mind.


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## flatsmaster14 (Mar 25, 2011)

Crazy how many people only have 20 post, only in this topic.


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

flatsmaster14 said:


> Crazy how many people only have 20 post, only in this topic.


Glad i'm not the only one that see's this trend.:mpd:


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## kenny (May 21, 2004)

saltangler said:


> There's that word again. I think what this board needs is a glossary. We can call it:
> 
> The Texas Coastal Angler's Guide to Fear Monger Terminology and Paranoid Conjecture Phrases


Accuracy hurts doesn't it?


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## PL (Sep 28, 2011)

Im just sick and tired of reading the same old arguments for and against the LIFA's. In the last 15 years Ive personally witnessed an explosion of anglers in areas where boats in the past were unable to operate. Its not up to me to determine if this is good or bad. The real issue in my opinion (and the only reason I even feel compelled to stir the pot on this thread) is the appalling lack of fishing etiquette displayed by a *small minority* of boaters. Can this be fixed? Highly doubtful. Will this continue to get worse? Probably. If you have not been adversely effected by these folks then consider yourself lucky and know that its just a matter of time.


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## RockportRobert (Dec 29, 2006)

PL said:


> Im just sick and tired of reading the same old arguments for and against the LIFA's. In the last 15 years Ive personally witnessed an explosion of anglers in areas where boats in the past were unable to operate. Its not up to me to determine if this is good or bad. The real issue in my opinion (and the only reason I even feel compelled to stir the pot on this thread) is the appalling lack of fishing etiquette displayed by a *small minority* of boaters. Can this be fixed? Highly doubtful. Will this continue to get worse? Probably. If you have not been adversely effected by these folks then consider yourself lucky and know that its just a matter of time.


Typical response of a statist. Punish (deprive freedom) all due to the transgressions of a few.


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## PL (Sep 28, 2011)

ACbob said:


> Typical response of a statist. Punish (deprive freedom) all due to the transgressions of a few.


Care to propose a non-statist solution? If that's even a word. As _stated_ above, I don't know the answer to what I perceive as the problem. If I had an equitable solution then I would be glad to share it.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

PL said:


> Care to propose a non statist solution?


Sure, super spook junior on a rod in your back pocket at all times. Someone burns you, you've just caught your personal best *** hole.


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

PL said:


> Care to propose a non statist solution?


Careful there, PL. This is where they'll trot out the dreaded "E" word on you.

We must EDUCATE these transgressors!

Because, really, all the flats burner needs is a little polite guidance.


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

saltangler said:


> Careful there, PL. This is where they'll trot out the dreaded "E" word on you.
> 
> We must EDUCATE these transgressors!
> 
> Because, really, all the flats burner needs is a little polite guidance.


Hey there is boaters edumocation now.I don't need a education on Fran Dresser either.:mpd:


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

By all means, lets punish everyone for the actions of the few. Traveling across a flat should not be considered burning. I believe these guys see all traffic on the flats as a burning activity. 

Please saltangler describe the minimum standard for burning in your opinion. I am waiting with baited breath. The last time we had this discussion it was quite interesting. Heres how it works, start a new thread on my definition of a burning activity. Please use the activity that meets your lowest threshold.


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## blackmagic (May 13, 2011)

railbird said:


> By all means, lets punish everyone for the actions of the few. Traveling across a flat should not be considered burning. I believe these guys see all traffic on the flats as a burning activity.
> 
> Please saltangler describe the minimum standard for burning in your opinion. I am waiting with baited breath. The last time we had this discussion it was quite interesting. Heres how it works, start a new thread on my definition of a burning activity. Please use the activity that meets your lowest threshold.


 Thanks Chuck,we needed this!:dance:


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## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

*Same old Frieschman, Brown and Meyers private fly fishing hole.*

Guys 40% of the area I am told is 3 feet or deeper. Just same old elitist wanting to expand their limited use areas for non motorized use for the most part. Most of these guys couldn't catch a limit of fish so they want a area off limits to 90% of recreational anglers.

Same Old worn out liberals wanting to save the planet.

Please send in your response to Texas Parks and Wildlife or we will have these all over the State.


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## JimD (May 25, 2004)

I took one of the "neubies" advice and looked at their web site. It is well laid out, informative, set up to try to influence a lot of people to sign up and write letters the state government voicing WPP opinions. Take a minute and read the stock letter that scares me to death about banning motorized craft from these areas.

The site appears to be a well oiled and financed rolling machine that we need to stay up with or we could lose the rights to run our motorized craft in these area. 
Look at the text below.

http://wadepaddlepole.net/index.html

•* A system of Managed Fishing Areas (MFA's) on the Texas Coast that are open to all
fishing methods, but closed to running motorized craft.*
• The establishment of more public access points for waders and paddlers so that
existing locations might receive less pressure.
What we adamantly oppose:
• The complete closure of any area to fishing.
• Boaters (prop, air, or jet) that run across shallow coastal flats in an effort to locate
fish, reach remote areas, joyride, or "eco‐tour".

The did have a nice list with name and address of all the state officials, commissioners, TPWL and anyone that you need the name and address for.

BELOW is a nice link they had to a site to post your comments for any of the ongoing TPWL open comments request.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/feedback/public_comment/

Nice form to use and may carry more weight than an email to Art.

If you look at the site read the FAQ section too to see their views.


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## kenny (May 21, 2004)

PL said:


> *Im just sick and tired of reading the same old arguments for and against the LIFA's.* In the last 15 years Ive personally witnessed an explosion of anglers in areas where boats in the past were unable to operate. Its not up to me to determine if this is good or bad. The real issue in my opinion (and the only reason I even feel compelled to stir the pot on this thread) is the appalling lack of fishing etiquette displayed by a *small minority* of boaters. Can this be fixed? Highly doubtful. Will this continue to get worse? Probably. If you have not been adversely effected by these folks then consider yourself lucky and know that its just a matter of time.


Good, leave 2cool and go pound sand.


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

railbird said:


> Please saltangler describe the minimum standard for burning in your opinion. I am waiting with baited breath.


It's pretty simple, Railbird:

Burning (verb): The act of running a boat across a shallow flat or along a shoreline where others are already fishing. Usually in an attempt to locate fish, and/or herd fish into an area where they can be more easily caught. (see also: burner, lazy jackass, potlicker)


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

jim smarr said:


> Guys 40% of the area I am told is 3 feet or deeper. Just same old elitist wanting to expand their limited use areas for non motorized use for the most part. Most of these guys couldn't catch a limit of fish so they want a area off limits to 90% of recreational anglers.
> 
> Same Old worn out liberals wanting to save the planet.
> 
> Please send in your response to Texas Parks and Wildlife or we will have these all over the State.


Oh thank god, Smarr is here!

The New Environmental Right is in the house!

All our problems are solved, now. Nothing to see here, folks, move along...


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## live2fish247 (Jul 31, 2007)

All these grass huggers should take notes from the tree huggers. The only way you're gonna get people to listen is if you all join together in protest and chain yourselves to the sea grass.lol

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

saltangler said:


> It's pretty simple, Railbird:
> 
> Burning (verb): The act of running a boat across a shallow flat or along a shoreline where others are already fishing. Usually in an attempt to locate fish, and/or herd fish into an area where they can be more easily caught. (see also: burner, lazy jackass, potlicker)


So how close do I have to be to be a burner? Within 1-2 miles too close? If I use my craft to gain access to a remote area, that makes me a burner? Please define remote in your world.

Potlicker? An interesting term for you and your group to use. It tends to imply you own something and the general public should stay away from your spot. That mindset is exactly why I am in opposition to your agenda. Just because you live near there doesn't give you dominion over all that you covet.

I would submit this group believes any boat operating over shallow water has newly been defined as a burner. Making a 2-3 mile drift and returning to make another drift is defined by this group as burning.

Its funny how they redefine burning to encompus any powerboat operating on any flat. Now do you understand?


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

saltangler said:


> It's pretty simple, Railbird:
> 
> Burning (verb): The act of running a boat across a shallow flat or along a shoreline where others are already fishing. Usually in an attempt to locate fish, and/or herd fish into an area where they can be more easily caught. (see also: burner, lazy jackass, potlicker)





railbird said:


> So how close do I have to be to be a burner? Within 1-2 miles too close? If I use my craft to gain access to a remote area, that makes me a burner? Please define remote in your world.
> 
> Potlicker? An interesting term for you and your group to use. It tends to imply you own something and the general public should stay away from your spot. That mindset is exactly why I am in opposition to your agenda. Just because you live near there doesn't give you dominion over all that you covet.
> 
> ...


I would submit that you're the master of spin, Railbird:

1-2 miles? Please. You know good and well what's considered too close. It's the distance where you get the middle finger from the person you just ran over.

Remote? I just re-checked my post and that's your word, not mine.

Potlicker? I believe that's a term originated by YOUR group.

Owning something? Nope, never said that. BUT, when I get to a piece of water FIRST and then you come in and BURN that water, that's where the problem arises, and I don't think anyone on this board will disagree with that premise.

Let's talk about that golf game some more. You've been ducking that question for days now. You can spin this all you want Railbird, but when you run your boat onto a flat, and you drive within middle finger distance of where others are ALREADY fishing, then you are in the wrong. Cut and dried, black white. 99% of the conflicts on the Texas Coast begin with this issue. When you see someone else already fishing, go somewhere else. It's simple common courtesy.

If you want to run your deer stand across miles of deep, empty flats where no one else is fishing, and you're not damaging grass, then get after it. Knock yourself out. But when you run skinny and too close to where others are fishing, then you'll get exactly what you deserve.

And if that's a LIFA, then you have no one else to blame but yourself, and the other people that share your sense of entitlement.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

> The site appears to be a well oiled and financed rolling machine that we need to stay up with or we could lose the rights to run our motorized craft in these area.


The good news is for every hit that site takes, this one takes 10,000. Hit the link and let TPWD know to just say no to the elitists.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/busines...nt/proposals/201201_jfk_scientific_area.phtml


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

LOL, nice spin! Give me a distance. You and your buddies have defined this many times. Anyone on a flat is considered to be a burner by your group. I seem to remember one of you guys claiming anytime an airboat crossed within 1 mile he was perfoming fishermen harassment.

Actually my golf game is pretty good considering I ruptured my achilles 4 months ago. I don't get the corrolation. Were you tryig to say that because I belong to a private golf course, that makes me a hipocrit because I don't want your to make the JFK area a private club for your WPP buddys.

By the way, we won our 2 man scramble. We shot -3, whats your point?


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

Here's my point. The question you never answered from your famed SMOKING GUN!!! thread.

Hey Chuck, regarding that golf game: How would you respond if someone came zig-zagging down the middle of the fairway and cutting ruts with their cart while you were in the middle of your backswing?


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

saltangler said:


> Here's my point. The question you never answered from your famed SMOKING GUN!!! thread.
> 
> Hey Chuck, regarding that golf game: How would you respond if someone came zig-zagging down the middle of the fairway and cutting ruts with their cart while you were in the middle of your backswing?


Talk about a spin! Your trying to compare public resource to private property. 
And again, as stated in the other thread, the "burning" is not restricted to the flats, it happens in open water also. So again this points to privatization of an area for a select group.


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

spurgersalty said:


> Talk about a spin! Your trying to compare public resource to private property.


Ever hear of a public golf course?

Doesn't matter the scenario, public or private. I want to hear him answer the question.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

saltangler said:


> Ever hear of a public golf course?
> 
> Doesn't matter the scenario, public or private. I want to hear him answer the question.


Public golf course-privately owned land with rules in place. How hard is that to understand?
And again, if someone is operating a boat that close to you, they are breaking a current law. You sound like you've had multiple chances to get some video footage, where's it at?


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Running the flats isn't bad - most bay boats only require about 10 inches when on a plane. Sometimes at low tide you can tunnel some sand or mess with some weed but when I fish the flats down here in the LLM, I don't see that. The average depth of the LLM below Mansfield and outside of the ICW is 2 feet.

The problem is when idiots do a hull-shot in skinny water. Some call it a "hole shot" but you know what I mean. I was taught to drift of pole to slightly deeper water before firing up the engine and putting the stick down WOT.

Some do get stuck on a sandbar and you're not a good fishermen if you haven't. Now that's a mess. Sometimes that will excavate the seabed and you can see those tracks in a super-low winter tide, even the outline of the boat hull with the crease down the middle. That's pretty rare but it does leave a helluva scar.

So I don't see the big deal here - this time of year, the grass is dying off with the cold fronts and it collects along the bay side, anyways. This proposed no-motor area isn't based on science. It's all *POLITICS*.

It sure ain't common sense either!


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## Joe. T. (Jun 7, 2008)

if it happen to me on the golf course most likely i would hit another shot if it was in my back swing .as far as the grass i wouldn't mind it one bit because i know in a week or so it would grow back.


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## JimD (May 25, 2004)

JimD- The site appears to be a well oiled and financed rolling machine that we need to stay up with or we could lose the rights to run our motorized craft in these area.

Mont-The good news is for every hit that site takes, this one takes 10,000. Hit the link and let TPWD know to just say no to the elitists.

Mont- Thanks for posting up the link. I am glad that we have you and your site. 
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business...fic_area.phtml

Still their site looks as good as a certain president's speeches did until you actually reador listened to what was said and realize it is "fluff". It could misdirect a lot of people to sign up.

The other thing on 2Cool is we all want to fish and be with our families while these people seem committed to take away access to or make it impossible for many to access our state waters with a motorized craft.

If we do not monitor these people and their campaign to close these areas we could be in trouble before we realize it. They have stock letters, and a list of all the people to email from to make it appear that most people want to close areas of our bay system to boat traffic. We just want to fish.  

Monty- 
Thanks again for a great site. JimD

Voice your opinion not before it is too late.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

saltangler said:


> Ever hear of a public golf course?
> 
> Doesn't matter the scenario, public or private. I want to hear him answer the question.


There's a big difference between a public resource that someone wants to privatize and private property. You could ask him if he's seen any Martians lately, but neither his answer nor the question would be relevant. In debate, they call such things red herrings. In real life, they are meaningless.

As far as seeing your one finger salute, I just wave at idiots that do that and smile as I put a wave over their bows. Clear Lake is home to a bunch of blow boaters that also think they own the water. They even give out free legal advice on the VHF too.


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## live2fish247 (Jul 31, 2007)

I for one just submitted my 2 cents thanks to Monts link. I don't have a dog in the race in the JFK area but I know of several Galveston Bay areas that could be next. Just hope you "southerners" will return the favor when the yakers try to take Galveston too.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

saltangler said:


> Here's my point. The question you never answered from your famed SMOKING GUN!!! thread.
> 
> Hey Chuck, regarding that golf game: How would you respond if someone came zig-zagging down the middle of the fairway and cutting ruts with their cart while you were in the middle of your backswing?


First off I'm not all that tempermental on the golf course either. As for a guy zig-zagging down the fairway cutting ruts, well I would report him to the marshal. By design golf carts are harmless to the grass, just as flats boats are designed to drive over shallow water without damaging the grass. I wouldn't start a special interest lobby group to bann all colf carts from my favorite course.

As for my back swing, I would accept it as a rub of the green and go find my ball. In fishing, if someone runs a 1/4 mile away from me while I'm fishing, I wouldn't use it for an excuse for not catching fish. Sure it would be nice to privatize the water I use, but I recognize the other 900,000 fishermen would like to use it too.


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

railbird said:


> As for a guy zig-zagging down the fairway cutting ruts, well I would report him to the marshal.


DING!

We have a WINNER!


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## JimD (May 25, 2004)

Rainbird- May be you should get a place over in the area where they want the LIFA?

Guess everyone could go post our opinions on their board but most of us have a real job and have to work or fish.

Wonder what these 5 or 6 posters stand to profit if they can get a (LIFA) or no motorized boat area in their back yard ?? Quite interesting as hard as they are fighting this one issue and never really posted on anything else.

Railbird- You must feel like one of the Republican candidates that the other side is gunning for. Not sure what they can say about you other than you spend a lot of time fishing in the back bays or posting on 2Cool.   It is great to know that my Baby Cat with the monster Tothatsu 90 is a burner too..

*The great news is the more they rant and rave about you and this topic the more people read the posts, get involved, and go vote their opinion. *


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## saltangler (Dec 1, 2011)

JimD said:


> The great news is the more they rant and rave about you and this topic the more people read the posts, get involved, and go vote their opinion.


And that involvement flows both ways.


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## kenn22 (Jul 2, 2009)

haha.. this is more for the guys in the kenners and bluewaves that can't run shallow


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## flatsmaster14 (Mar 25, 2011)

kenn22 said:


> haha.. this is more for the guys in the kenners and bluewaves that can't run shallow


X2 that's what I was thinking. But cause its a picture of the flats it's gotta be a "tower boat" get real people. A few of y'all said it averages 3 feet, what flats boat drafts/need that much water to get up?


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

railbird said:


> As for a guy zig-zagging down the fairway cutting ruts, well I would report him to the marshal. By design golf carts are harmless to the grass, just as flats boats are designed to drive over shallow water without damaging the grass. I wouldn't start a special interest lobby group to bann all colf carts from my favorite course.


I think the full quote is the real winner


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

saltangler said:


> DING!
> 
> We have a WINNER!


Lol, you don't grasp things well do you? Your golf analogy was a soft ball, I didn't have the heart to hit it, but you insisted.


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## PL (Sep 28, 2011)

southpaw said:


> I think the full quote is the real winner


They may be designed for running over them, but they sure as hell aren't designed for starting up and getting on plane on the flats.


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## flatsmaster14 (Mar 25, 2011)

PL said:


> They may be designed for running over them, but they sure as hell aren't designed for starting up and getting on plane on the flats.


So a flats boat isn't designed to get up on plane in shallow water?


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

PL said:


> They may be designed for running over them, *but they sure as hell aren't designed for starting up and getting on plane on the flats.*


Hmm I would tend to disagree with that statement. Is a pontoon boat or a deep V boat designed to get up on a shallow flat? No, however those aren't the only hull types out there. There are plenty of boat designs out there that are not only designed to run shallow, but get on plane shallow. Designing boats with tunnels, shallow drafts and trim tabs give boats the advantage of getting up on plane. Yes these features serve other purpose but I don't think it's a reach to say that certain shallow water boat makers don't have this in mind when the design their boats. I mean to say boats sure as hell aren't designed to get on plane on the flats is a pretty bold statement. So that we don't highjack this thread, if you want to discuss this further PM me. I've studied naval architecture and planing vessels rather extensively so I'd be more than happy to discuss this further if you'd like.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

Getting on a plane in the flats isn't the issue with WPP and their agenda. They oppose air boats too. 

Maybe one of the geniuses from WPP can explain prop scars from an air boat to me. 

WPP's entire agenda is based upon exclusion. That's all it really boils down to. Keeping others out.


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## flatsmaster14 (Mar 25, 2011)

Got my new flats boat today, it runs in 2 inches of water, but needs 7 foot of water to get up on plane. Lol come on guy


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Mont said:


> Getting on a plane in the flats isn't the issue with WPP and their agenda. They oppose air boats too.
> 
> Maybe one of the geniuses from WPP can explain prop scars from an air boat to me.
> 
> WPP's entire agenda is based upon exclusion. That's all it really boils down to. Keeping others out.


Hmmmmmm, I posed the same question about the airboats in the other thread and listened to crickets the rest of the night. http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?p=3801386


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

http://wadepaddlepole.net/contact.html

Does anybody see a trend with fishing access, fishing method and were we fish?

yak or canoe 43%,54% fly-fishing and 46% rockport/port A.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

The funny thing about these guys is they got caught in a lie over the ecotour boat. Total misrepresentation of fact. Chugger was the kayaker that was reported to have been burned by the ecotour boat. It turns out Chugger was paddling like crazy toward the airboat trying cut him off and create the illusion of being burned, the captain was all the way to the edge of the channel risking an oyster bed to avoid him. They then claimed it was back in the marsh. Photo was proven to be taken in big bayou, not back in some remote lake as was reported on WPP.


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## flatsmaster14 (Mar 25, 2011)

Really? Air boats? Will a kayaker please explain? If an air boat can drive through your front yard and not hurt grass how could it hurt sea grass?


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

reeltimer said:


> http://wadepaddlepole.net/contact.html
> 
> Does anybody see a trend with fishing access, fishing method and were we fish?
> 
> yak or canoe 43%,54% fly-fishing and 46% rockport/port A.


Hey, YOU, easy on the fly fishermen I is one.


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

spurgersalty said:


> Hey, YOU, easy on the fly fishermen I is one.


lol i'm friends and have fished with many.:mpd:.This whole thing smack of elitist.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

flatsmaster14 said:


> Really? Air boats? Will a kayaker please explain? If an air boat can drive through your front yard and not hurt grass how could it hurt sea grass?


Are you suprised after the failed linkage to a golf course earlier on?:cheers:


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## flatsmaster14 (Mar 25, 2011)

Facebook has a page called "boaters against wade, paddle & pole, they have a topic about 2cool and railbird. Not sure if anyone has seen it.


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

Mont said:


> Getting on a plane in the flats isn't the issue with WPP and their agenda. They oppose air boats too.
> 
> Maybe one of the geniuses from WPP can explain prop scars from an air boat to me.
> 
> WPP's entire agenda is based upon exclusion. That's all it really boils down to. Keeping others out.


Mont i was picked last in kickball and would win go figure.Can i join you as a fence rider.lmao.Thanks for the boaters against WP&P link not sure who posted it.Flatsmaster14 thanks.


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## CaptDocHoliday (Feb 3, 2011)

The stance they (WPP) hold is a kin to saying "We are fine with people owning guns, but we want to ban the bullets because they are loud and pollute the air". Freaking ridiculous. In my opinion, WPP is a small group of vocal liberals trying to do what the liberals do best - to tell everyone else how they are supposed to live.

NO THANK YOU

(dirty bunch of Obama lovers)

http://wadepaddlepole.net/index.html


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## flatsmaster14 (Mar 25, 2011)

I guess they don't have much to say anymore...


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## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

The Cancer will spread closing areas that let the libtards have Limited Impact Fishing Areas. The real agenda behind Meyers, Frieschman and Brown at WPP is LIFA. Sea Grass has little to do with their agenda.

Yes the Environmental Right is not happy with spoiled brats that want to change fishing for the vast majority. For the Yakers like Will Meyers, Ben Frieschman and Tosh Brown they should have lights if fishing before sunrise or after sunset, flag (slow moving Yak sign) affixed to a pole at least six feet tall for saftey. They should have to buy TX Numbers and support TPWD instead of whine and be freeloaders. The Legislature will have a chance to address the issue next session you can count on that. If they want a seat at the table then pay to play.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Where's my fan club? Did they get upset and go back away?


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## JimD (May 25, 2004)

Hey Railbird I am upset. 

I thought they liked me more than you. 

They have been good for the site so everyone can see what is happening and go on the formal site and register their opinion.

Still wonder what their vested interest is to push this so much on a site the really never posted on before. The spent a lot of time posting against you and the proposal and seemed to run from the LIFA stance. 

They scare me since they are trying to push their idea of what is needed for the bays system behind our backs with the TPWL commissioners, high employees, and all the area state government officials while most of want to just be with our families and fish when and WHERE we want.


What is the last day to voice your opinion?


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## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

*Very Important meeting on the issue December 13th Corpus Christi*

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/busines...nt/proposals/201201_jfk_scientific_area.phtml

Public Scoping Meetings Dates and Locations
Nov. 30, Dickinson Marine Lab - 1502 FM 517 East, Dickinson, Texas 77539
Dec. 1, Bass Pro Shops - 17907 IH-10 West San Antonio, TX 78257
Dec. 5, Natural Resources Center, Room 1003 - Texas A&M University - Corpus Christi, 6300 Ocean Drive Corpus Christi, TX 78412
78418
Dec.13, Holiday Inn North Padre Island - 15202 Windward Drive, Corpus Christi, TX 78418 
Dec. 14, Port Isabel Community Center - 213 Yturria, Port Isabel, TX 78578
Dec. 15, TPWD Headquarters, Commission Hearing Room, 4200 Smith School Road, Austin, TX 78744
See an earlier news release detailing the two possible regulation changes online.
---
On the Net:
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20111102b
Please make sure to get the word out about the Public Hearings. Make sure to attend one of the last three meetings and go on the record. I can assure you as always the people pushing the Agenda will be at all meetings stacking the record and pushing up the support numbers unfairly.

Jim Smarr
RFA Texas
361-463-1558
[email protected]


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Please take time to attend the meeting tonight @ holiday inn on north padre island. It starts @ 7pm. Be heard on this issueits our last chance to make an impression on the powers that be at tpwd. You can bet chugger and his wpp buddies will be there.


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## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Tonight's meeting was well attended 200 people were present in Corpus Christi. Not a single person voiced support for the new Scientific Area at JFK Causeway. The Reps from Rep Smith and Hunter's Office along with Commissioner Joe McCombs were not impressed with the presentation nor with the project. They were very aware no one supported the project.

We at the Recreational Fishing Alliance went on the record against the project. We would like to thank everyone for attending this meeting as your time and input is valuable in the process.

Jim Smarr
361-463-1558
[email protected]


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

That's great news Jim.

Just as (if not more) important as tonight's meeting is the meeting in Austin two days from now. Brown, Myers, and several other of the WPP ringleaders live in Austin and will no doubt be showing up in full force to press this agenda to the commission.

I believe it's critically important to get as many people to Thursday's meeting in Austin as possible to make sure WPP's minority agenda isn't passed off or perceived as the will of the public at large.

If there is any way you can be there, be there and more importantly speak up. If those against WPPs agenda don't take action against this special interest group we *will* start losing access.

This group is getting desperate to get their way. The have shown they have no qualms manufacturing propaganda and spreading lies, deceit, and misinformation to push their cause. No telling what they have up there sleeves and we all need to be there to call them out on it.

Remember this little gem featuring our very own "chugger" ambushing the airboat captain?










Some of you may have seen this photograph posted on the WPP website and a few other sites:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=161035616975&v=wall#!/photo.php?fbid=1410829124008&set=o.161035616975&comments


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

That picture was taken in the Lighthouse Lakes (LHL) in Port Aransas and anyone familiar with the area can tell you exactly where&#8230;in the main entrance channel off of the Lydia Ann channel (see the sand dunes on the horizon in the background?). The airboat is running in the main channel adjacent to the oyster bar and the kayaker happens to be paddling (not fishing) in the same channel. There are only two areas in the entire LHL complex that have oyster banks like that, and those Gulf Sand dunes in the background can only be seen at one of them.

For those not familiar with the area, that channel is ~4-6 feet deep on a normal tide and is bordered on both the north and south sides by substantial oyster reefs. The channel averages roughly ~80-100 feet wide (if that) and the airboat is running on the south side of the channel. Behind the oyster bars that line the channel are productive flats that are ~1 foot deep on normal tides and only a few inches deep on low tide (pictured). This is one of three or four major entry/exit point channels into the Lakes and it sees _lots_ of boat traffic.

The picture was posted on the WPP facebook website page by Tosh Brown on June 27, 2010 with the following comments:



Tosh Brown said:


> _Angler getting blasted in the Lighthouse Lakes. The boat belongs to Wild Eye Airboat Charters (aptly named). He runs "eco and birding" tours out of the Crab Man marina. Ironically, this photo was shot by Erika Nortemann who was there taking bird photos for the Nature Conservancy. This is not a faked or setup photo. The kayaker was in plain view and the airboat captain had plenty of room to veer off, take a different route, or go around him. The photo has been sent to the appropriate authorities_.


Notice how Brown comments that the airboater should have "veered off, or taken a different route, or go around him" but does not mention that the kayaker could have done the same thing. Implied is that the airboater does not have the same rights as the kayaker and thus should not have been operating where he was.

Also notice that the kayaker doesn't have a fishing rod on his boat and that he is paddling what in appears to be in the middle of the channel, perhaps even heading toward the airboat and oyster reef behind the airboat (both of which are navigation hazards), rather than away from the approaching airboat (and towards the north side of the channel).

Both the airboat and the kayaker are in a deeper, navigable channel and from the photo it appears that the airboater is yielding R.O.W. to the kayaker by running as far to the south side of the channel as he possibly can while the kayaker stays in the center of the channel. If you are familiar with the area you know that the airboat was limited in maneuverability - the oyster bars that line both sides of the channel were exposed by extremely low tide, the north side of the channel was being blocked by the position of the photo boat, and the kayaker is in the center of the channel.

It's hard to tell what's going on unless you know where they are and know the area like the back of your hand. In the picture the angle of the sunlight is obviously low and there is some glare on the water so you can't see the color difference between the shallow water back behind the bar and the deeper channel the airboat is running in. But you can tell that the boats are in a channel as the ripples/chop are bigger (indication of deeper water) where the airboat and kayak are operating.

Most viewers don't know where this was taken and what the circumstances were. Without knowing this it would be easy develop an uninformed, incorrect opinion about both the airboat operator and the kayaker.

In reality a law-abiding U.S.C.G. licensed airboat captain (anybody know if the kayaker has any qualifications?) is operating his vessel in a deeper navigable channel, and is actually yielding R.O.W. as best he can to the kayaker and the photo boat (which by the way was anchored in the navigable channel). The airboat captain is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing, and if anybody is in the wrong it's the kayaker (for staying in the middle of the channel and not moving away from the hazard) and the photo boat (for occupying the wrong side of, and anchoring in, the navigable channel).

I believe the intent of both the photograph and its posting is to give the impression that the airboat operator is "burning" the kayaker rather than legally and safely passing him in a navigable channel.

I have been in the LHL in my paddle-craft and have seen that specific airboat operator on numerous occasions while I was fishing those flats. He's always made an effort to give me plenty of room every time so as not to disturb what I was doing. He's always moved through and I continued to catch fish.

While at WPP's Sharing and Conserving Our Bays workshop this past January I confronted 2 of the WPP members about this photo's dishonest/deceitful nature and neither denied it. They even told me who took the picture.

One of them started to try to justify it with a weak excuse about "(me) not seeing the bigger/whole picture...that (I) was just seeing a zoomed in, cropped shot." I responded that that might be the case, but all I saw was this propaganda posted on the WPP facebook page. I continued that if I needed to see more as he claimed, then WPP was obligated to show me.

Perhaps the "larger picture" they referred to shows something else (doubtful), but the point is they didn't put the "larger picture" out there...they chose to post the image they posted.

And by the way, the kayaker in the picture is Will Myers, one of the WPP founders.

Remember this stuff folks, and tell your friends&#8230;&#8230;.

And in case you are wondering who runs WadePaddlePole:

Tosh Brown
Aldo Dyer 
Ben Frishman 
Foard Houston
Will Myers
George Strickhausen IV


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

chugger said:


> If you want to read for yourself what WPP actually thinks -- rather than Railbird's warped interpretations and misconceptions ---
> 
> http://wadepaddlepole.net/index.html
> 
> ...


make no mistake, LIFA is a term that the ringleaders at wadepaddlepole concocted that wouldn't sound as intrusive as N.M.Z. - No Motor Zone - which excludes any type of powered vessel. "LIFA" just sounds prettier so they went with that.

it's all about how you market it&#8230;.

chugger, you can guys can try to spin it all you want to try to make it sound better, but no matter how you cut it, it's a N.M.Z. and they exclude the vast majority of users.


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

kenny said:


> Your right it's about sea grass, for now. It's an old political technique called incrementalism.


bingo.

if they can get another "scientific area" going the next step is a LIFA/N.M.Z.

once they get one N.M.Z. going then a precedent is set and they've got 3-4 other large areas they are eyeballing and want closed down.

if they are successful, bit by bit the citizens of the state of Texas lose access to their resource. and why? not because of any legitimate environmental reason, but because a special interest group is pushing to get their way and have a paddlecraft only fishery.

the guys who formed this group have been pushing for over a decade now to get N.M.Z.s set up on the gulf coast to exclude the vast majority of users. they've learned from other special interest groups that if you can successfully put an environmental spin on it you stand a better chance of gaining public sympathy. the problem i have with this group is they are trying to create (environmental) issues to hide their true agenda. this isn't just my opinion....this is the strategy as it was explained to me by the ringleader himself, Tosh Brown.

believe me, if there was a legitimate environmental reason to close access in an area i'd be behind it 100%.

on the Texas gulf coast, up to this point, there is no such need. that's why all the top guides that were on board and supported their efforts at first have since bailed on them. they realized what these guys were up to, saw the dangerous precedent it sets for the fishery, and want no part of it.


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

PL said:


> If you plan on racing up and down the flats and hearding redfish with it, then yes cancel the order and do us all a favor. If not, then feel free to do as you please.


newsflash, hearding [sic] (and the other term WPP likes to use, "harrassing") fish is currently illegal. that's right, there are already laws on the books prohibiting it.

why aren't you guys crying about simply more enforcement of laws already on the books?

why? because that doesn't satisfy WPPs ultimate goal of N.M.Z.s

stepping up enforcement of current laws does not leave tosh, will myers, ben frishman, et al with the paddlecraft-only playground that you guys at WPP have been lobbying for for over a decade.


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

Swells said:


> Folks this is crazy, the TPWD is begging for us to support their parks, which are 46 million in the red, and they want to spend untold hundreds of thousands on protecting some junky waters that in the summer are quite polluted because of low dissolved oxygen.


and why do we get the low oxygen content in many areas of our bays during the doldrums of summer?

because ~11 of the 14 natural gulf passes that were closed off by the government in the late 70s have never been re-opened. with such restricted water flow fresh gulf water and all the nutrients and oxygen it brings with it can't reach the back bays.

if WPP is so concerned about the environment, how come they aren't doing anything or lobbying to address the root cause of many of the problems we face in our bays? why? because that (while fixing many environmental problems) would not leave them with kayak-only N.M.Z.s



Swells said:


> This proposed no-motor area isn't based on science. It's all *POLITICS*.


correct. in fact the only data out there actually refutes what they are claiming. don't take my word for it. start running searches and look it up for yourself.


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

PL said:


> Care to propose a non-statist solution? If that's even a word. As _stated_ above, I don't know the answer to what I perceive as the problem. If I had an equitable solution then I would be glad to share it.


stepping up enforcement of existing regulations (RBSSA uprooting, Sportsman's Rights Act, etc.), education, PSAs, and peer pressure.

*that* would be a "non-statist solution".

that's the only thing that's going to change anything or fix the problem without depriving the masses of the rights they've enjoyed for decades.

why not go that route? because it doesn't get WPP the exclusionary paddlecraft-only N.M.Z.s they've been pushing for.

you even admit that it's a "*small minority*". why should the actions of a small minority be allowed to take away the rights of the vast majority when more inclusionary steps can be taken?


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Welcome back ish.


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## JED (Nov 14, 2004)

When properly operated, my tunnel boat does not uproot any seagrass. With the prop up in the tunnel and approx 1-2" of skeg below the hull of my boat. Granted it would shave the grass, but not uproot it.

The platform used by WPP for the SSA and eventual LIFA of 'fishery protection' is bogus. How can gill net surveys conducted by TPWD, which show both progressive and dramatic increases in fish population in the upper laguna be completely ignored?? Minded that bag limits and TPWD restocking efforts contributed to the increases, but that goes in conjunction with increases in angler population as well.

http://www.chron.com/sports/article/Tompkins-So-far-so-good-for-fisheries-1704326.php#page-2

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20080523e


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## shallowgal (Jun 11, 2004)

*An email we sent out today*

I'm not sure if you and your fellow guides have heard that TPWD is trying to set up another no prop area like the Redfish Bay SSA in the Upper Laguna Madre and is conducting scoping meetings to hear public comment before proceeding. The Wade Paddle Pole group in favor of shutting down various bay systems to motorized crafts has sent representatives to each of the meetings so far and are piggy-backing their LIFAs (Low Impact Fishing Areas) into the cause. The letter I received from Ben Frishman has them pretty much taking responsibility for putting this idea on the table at TPWD as well as an upcoming proposal for a LIFA. The scoping meeting tonight is to determine public opinion about shutting down over 15,500 acres around JFK causway in Corpus Christi including dead mans hole from Corpus Christi bay and South. They already have the 35,000 acre Redfish Bay SSA, and want to add this 15,500 acres chunk of the bay as well. It is doubtful that it will stop there, and soon the only way to access your fishing spots without fear of getting written a huge fine will be by wading or kayaking. Are you able and willing to kayak 10 miles a day? I'm not.

EVERYONE WHO LOVES FISHING THE LAGUNA MADRE BY BOAT MUST ATTEND THIS SCOPING MEETING TO EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS ABOUT THIS CLOSURE! TONIGHT AT THE COMMUNITY CENTER IN PORT ISABEL (NEXT TO LIBRARY AND DAIRY QUEEN) 7:00 PM

If this SSA passes, it wont be long until South Bay becomes one as well, since it was one of the 10 spots under consideration for this new proposed SSA. TPWD states that ideal candidates for SSA's (or eventually LIFAs) are areas where sea grass is prevalent, where there is alot of boat traffic, and where the average depth is around 2'. So, basically say goodbye to the entire Lower Laguna Madre if this thing passes because they will only want to have more and there is no chance we will ever get it back much like the Redfish scientific area around Rockport that was supposed to be only closed for five years.

I realize this is may sound a little sensationalistic but Wade, Paddle, Pole has been able to get their agendas into the right hands just by knowing the right people and sneaking in unpopular motions. They are organized and they show up to everything concerning this discussion. They send out mass emails with pre-written "opinions" for people to simply sign their name to or forward on. So, to TPWD, it seems that the majority of anglers in Texas are on board with plans to restrict our bays because that is the only voice that is heard.

This is being pushed by a very small special interest group (wade, paddle, pole group) mostly Kayakers who in their pre-written letters to TPWD and state senators declare this and I quote:

"What we actively support:
Anglers that locate fish on the Texas coastal flats by wading, paddling, poling, drifting and trolling. 
Protection of the sensitive seagrass habitat that builds and sustains our inshore fisheries.
Efforts to educate boaters and anglers on the ethical and responsible use of our resources.
A system of Manged Fishing Areas (MFA's) on the Texas Coast that are open to all fishing methods, but closed to running motorized craft.
The establishment of more public access points for waders and paddlers so that existing locations might receive less pressure.
What we adamantly oppose:

The complete closure of any area to fishing.
Boaters (prop, air, or jet) that run across shallow coastal flats in an effort to locate fish, reach remote areas, joyride, or "eco-tour".
The destruction of valuable seagrass habitat and the harassment and disturbance of fish and anglers by boaters that utilize the above unethical tactics.
Tournaments, fishing guides, outdoor media, conservation groups, and boat/tackle manufacturers that promote this type of behavior through film, articles and product endorsement."

We certainly do not promote the destruction of sea grass in any way but the bottom line is that this group is only using sea grass as a means to getting their way. If it was not sea grass it would most likely be something else. They want their own private playground to wade and kayak without any pressure from boaters.

I definitely feel that it is a good idea to educate and promote ethical and responsible use of our valuable resources however, closing them to all motorized traffic is not the answer. We definitely do not need more laws and restrictions on what should be free and accessible to everyone: our bays and oceans or any navigable waterway.

WE SUPPORT EDUCATION NOT LEGISLATION!

We have been receiving emails and calls all week about this. This is one hits home:

"Dear Wes,

I have fished down there since the early 70's. I have some comments about this asinine proposal in the Laguna Madre.

How many people do they want to put out of business? Guides, Bait camps? Marinas? Boat dealers?

How about the "disenfranchisement" of us older fisher persons? At sixty-eight and counting I'm not likely to do much kayaking. In fact, such a proposal will likely end my salt water fishing--certainly in the Lower Laguna Madre. (So long saltwater license and stamp sales.)

What a bunch of idiots.

Sincerely,
Bill H.

Bottom line:

Seagrass from prop scars often recover in less than ONE YEAR (source: TPWD studies)
The WPP group is a small special interest group using this sea grass protection movement to push their own agenda of having the resource to themselves
The closure of our bay system to motorized craft will result in the loss of millions of dollars in revenue to local businesses as well as boat registration fees and licenses purchases from Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept. (How does TPWD think they are going to regulate these laws if they can't afford to put gas in their boats?)
The boating community is a much larger and more established group. We need to stand up and fight for what is right!

Please read up on what has been going on and let me know if yall can make it TONIGHT, Wednesday, DECEMBER 14th, 2012.

PORT ISABEL COMMUNITY CENTER (NEXT TO LIBRARY AND DAIRY QUEEN) 7:00 PM

Here are some links to read more:

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=378779&highlight=ssa

http://www.wadepaddlepole.net/Downloads/FFS1211_022.pdf

http://www.statesman.com/sports/out...ut-a-proposed-1960028.html#.TsFNnBnZoyU.email


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