# Failure of the Christian Church



## Fish&Chips

Christianity is supposed to be the representative of Jesus who taught love, forgiveness, sacrifice, unity, and humility. Though that may be true to a large extent, Christianity has demonstrated an ability to overlook many of its professed virtues and allow denominational fragmentation to weaken it. Unfortunately, because of doctrinal "refining" on the non-essentials, a desire to be comfortable, and increase in apathy, the American church has, in many respects, become weakened. It spends too much time splitting doctrinal hairs. Too often Christians hide in churches designed to keep its members comfortable and safe while the world is going to hell, while we are playing the "religion game", as we fragment and abandon self sacrifice for comfort.

I am not saying that doctrinal purity is unimportant. It most certainly is. Without proper understanding of who God is, what He has done, and what we must do, we would all be damned. Our salvation depends on who Jesus is and what He did, which is why we need to know its truth. Therefore, as Christians, we should separate ourselves from the false doctrines that make powerless the saving truth of Christ's sacrifice. We should separate ourselves from false teachers and false doctrines, not from each other. In the non-essentials we need to remain united as much as possible so that we can fight the enemies of the gospel, not fellow Christians.

I recognize that denominations, to a small degree, are necessary and will never go away. But comfort and "doctrinal purity" have robbed the Church of much of its power. Where the early Christians had to rely on God for their every need, today creature-comforts and drive-through churches have made us complacent and sluggish to the call of God to make disciples of every nation. We are comfortable in America where we have the best of everything and only need to put on credit what our whims demand and thereby avoid the dependence upon God for our needs; this makes faith in God less of a pressing need. We have become distracted and the church is showing signs of spiritual apathy. We have our VCRs, air-conditioning, remote controls, and fast food. We have churches with central air, great sound systems, well educated preachers, plush pews, and fine-tuned choirs, pianos, and organs. We are blessed with committees, plans, and money. In fact, we have so many churches we are guaranteed we can find one to suit any whim or preference. And all too often the messages are pleasant and don't make our hearts ache for the lost or our Lord.

The medicine of doctrinal purity can become a plague when it unnecessarily divides that which has been made Holy by Christ's blood. We must be careful not to sacrifice people on the altar of doctrinal purity when the doctrines are as simple as music style, or whether or not to wear makeup, etc. We must not politely and lovingly expel fellow believers from our churches and bless them on the way out because they baptize by immersion or don't, or speak in tongues or don't, or believe in pretrib or don't, etc. Hurt and confused, many injured Christians wander the spiritual landscape looking for a safe haven only to fall prey to false teachers or the seductive call of the world. Yes, we need doctrinal purity and we may even need to die for it one day, but doctrinal purity worth dying for is in the essentials, not in the non-essentials. Confessions and creeds are not our bread and wine. We should not sacrifice the blessing of unity for the minutia of purity. But some will say, "These doctrines *are* important and our church has the truth." Perhaps. But Jesus said the world would know we were His disciples by the love we have for one another, not the purity of our doctrine.

And what does the world see in all this? Does it see a visible church full of sacrifice, full of love, or full of people who consider others more important than themselves? No. It sees polished televangelists with perfect hair and smiles pulling the wool over the eyes of countless thousands of gullible people as they ask for money. It sees the hypocrisy of moral uprightness proclaimed proudly in word and contradicted in deed. It sees a denominationally fragmented church that can't even clean its own house.

And what's more, the church has all but stopped its public proclamation against sin. It has begun to believe the lie that the church is weak and powerless to stop the momentum of social decay. It flounders when faced with immorality and stumbles instead of standing strong against sin!

*What are the consequences of this?*

We see the effects in the rise of the cults like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses who have millions of followers going door to door faithfully and consistently spreading their damning doctrines. Where are the Christians who oppose them? Where is the church? Is it supporting the efforts to stop this spread of lies? Is it uniting behind a common cause? No! It leaves the work to the weary and small who have a burden and who spend their efforts in a constant and mostly frustrating battle for the truth. The church pats them on the back and says, "God bless. Go in peace" but leaves the depleted warriors to fend for themselves.

We see consequences in the educational system with the rise of humanistic philosophy. Purely secular agendas are being taught on moral, political, and social levels in schools. Homosexuality, relativism, values clarification, and "ethical cleansing" are wiping the minds of the youth clear of Christian values. The children sit and listen while we go to church and talk about hymnals, the organ, and the color of carpet. May God have mercy on us.

Society needs not concern itself with the musings of our people because its conscience cannot be pricked when so many of the bickering failures of Christianity speak louder than our words. Society is little affected by the gospel. The secularist does not need to be wary of the church that sits idly by and pampers its members and does not encourage them to take risks for the gospel. The secular world is free to mock the truth, chip away at our freedoms, and claim more and more converts for itself. It is safe from Christianity. But is Christianity safe from it?

*What Should We Do?*

First of all, we need to confess our sins to our Lord and repent from them. We need to recognize our sinfulness of apathy, pride, gossip, and any idols of 'doctrinal purity' that are so divisive. We need to forsake them, and drop to our knees, pray, confess, forgive, and go on. We need to recognize that we must be united to be strong. But we must do this without compromising the gospel of truth (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Rom. 5:1). The enemy wants us fragmented, not God.

Second, we need to recognize the Great Commission as something more than a recommendation from Jesus. It is not an option. It is a command. Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations . . . " (Matt. 28:19). Are we being fishers of men or keepers of the aquarium? Are we being obedient or comfortable?

Third, we need to work together as much as possible to bring the gospel of truth to the lost. This will require sacrifice, prayer, humility, and risk. We cannot easily undo the great fragmentation of the body of Christ, but we can cross the denominational boundaries by focusing on that which unites us in the faith: Jesus is God in flesh (Trinity), salvation by grace through faith alone, the atonement, and forgiveness of sins in Jesus' shed blood. We need to look at the essentials and let the gospel of God change the hearts of people.

Fourth, we need to use whatever gifts the Lord has given us for the increase of His kingdom. Whether it is praying for the lost and for the workers in Christ, or helping support financially, teaching the body, doing works of administration, or whatever gift you have, use it for the glory of God. Give it to Him and ask Him to bless you by letting you use your gifts and then do it! And don't be afraid to fail.

*Conclusion*

God is a God of forgiveness, love, and power. He has forgiven us of our sins and continues to do that by His awesome Grace (1 John 1:9). He loves us deeply and wants to commune with us and enjoy our presence through Jesus (1 Cor. 1:9). And, His gospel is powerful, able to save the lost from their sins (Rom. 1:16) and change this world. Pray for the work of God in your life and in the lives of others. Make a strong effort to support and spread the gospel. Intercede prayerfully to the Father on behalf of the church that preaches, and the lost that need to hear. Humble yourselves before God and men. Don't remain comfortable. Take a risk. Trust God and go!

_by Matt Slick_

http://carm.org/failure-of-the-christian-church


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## Fish&Chips

*Is there any Christians that agree with this?*

Anybody.....???


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## Fish&Chips

*Yes? No? Get Lost?*

God help us...


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## rem44mag

That's a lot to take in in one reading
but if we seek the purity of the word
we will have love and sacrifice for others
I think we should speak where the bible speaks
and be silent where the bible is silent


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## WillieT

Your quote.

"Christianity has demonstrated an ability to overlook many of its professed virtues and allow denominational fragmentation to weaken it. Unfortunately, because of doctrinal "refining" on the non-essentials, a desire to be comfortable, and increase in apathy, the American church has, in many respects, become weakened. It spends too much time splitting doctrinal hairs. Too often Christians hide in churches designed to keep its members comfortable and safe while the world is going to hell, while we are playing the "religion game", as we fragment and abandon self sacrifice for comfort."

Remember the scriptures tell us that the TRUE religion is like minded. There are no splits or disagreement of doctrine. You covered a lot of religions in your statement. That should tell you something. The scriptures tell us that there is only one true religion.


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## finkikin

shaggydog said:


> Your quote.
> 
> "Christianity has demonstrated an ability to overlook many of its professed virtues and allow denominational fragmentation to weaken it. Unfortunately, because of doctrinal "refining" on the non-essentials, a desire to be comfortable, and increase in apathy, the American church has, in many respects, become weakened. It spends too much time splitting doctrinal hairs. Too often Christians hide in churches designed to keep its members comfortable and safe while the world is going to hell, while we are playing the "religion game", as we fragment and abandon self sacrifice for comfort."
> 
> Remember the scriptures tell us that the TRUE religion is like minded. There are no splits or disagreement of doctrine. You covered a lot of religions in your statement. That should tell you something. *The scriptures tell us that there is only one true religion.*


So, does that mean that my Uncle who was Catholic was not in the "true religion"? How can there only be one true religion? So all other religions are doomed before they even got started?


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## Fish&Chips

shaggydog said:


> Your quote.
> 
> "Christianity has demonstrated an ability to overlook many of its professed virtues and allow denominational fragmentation to weaken it. Unfortunately, because of doctrinal "refining" on the non-essentials, a desire to be comfortable, and increase in apathy, the American church has, in many respects, become weakened. It spends too much time splitting doctrinal hairs. Too often Christians hide in churches designed to keep its members comfortable and safe while the world is going to hell, while we are playing the "religion game", as we fragment and abandon self sacrifice for comfort."
> 
> Remember the scriptures tell us that the TRUE religion is like minded. There are no splits or disagreement of doctrine. You covered a lot of religions in your statement. That should tell you something. The scriptures tell us that there is only one true religion.


A lot of religions? Where do you see that? The whole article is about "Christianity" and how it has been broken up by so many denominations. The reason is because man tries to change everything. Even in the early church there were disagreements. And here you are trying to start another one.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> A lot of religions? Where do you see that? The whole article is about "Christianity" and how it has been broken up by so many denominations. The reason is because man tries to change everything. Even in the early church there were disagreements. And here you are trying to start another one.


Not trying to start anything. Just speaking the facts. Religions have changed their doctrine or fought over changes, to satisfy their members, disregarding the truths from the scriptures. The scriptures say no women in a teaching position, but many religions have put them in teaching positions. The scriptures absolutely condemn homosexuality, but many churches have welcomed them with open arms. These things are not scriptural. The scriptures tell us to keep the congregation clean. It can't be done by allowing homosexuals. There are others also, but this takes into account many religions.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> A lot of religions? Where do you see that? The whole article is about "Christianity" and how it has been broken up by so many denominations. The reason is because man tries to change everything. Even in the early church there were disagreements. And here you are trying to start another one.


Your quote.

"Christianity has demonstrated an ability to overlook many of its professed virtues and allow denominational fragmentation to weaken it. Unfortunately, because of doctrinal "refining" on the non-essentials, a desire to be comfortable, and increase in apathy, the

When you speak of the American church, you take in a lot of religions in general, which is why I said you were talking about many religions. The only questions that really need to be answered are:
1)Does God approve of religions that teach false doctrine?
2) Does God approve of religions that go against scriptural principal? (women in teaching positions)
3)Does God approve of religions that allow members that do not adhere to scriptural counsel? (men who lie with men. homosexuals) In other words they are not keeping the congregation clean.

Jesus' apostles and disciples were all in agreement on scriptural matters. There disagreement was on who was the greatest, which was due to human imperfection. When a question arose, it was settled among them and they all agreed with the decision. One big instance was the question of circumcision. After they reasoned on it they came to a conclusion and were of like mind. Do some research and see how differences are solved by the "churches" today.


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## WillieT

finkikin said:


> So, does that mean that my Uncle who was Catholic was not in the "true religion"? How can there only be one true religion? So all other religions are doomed before they even got started?


Many people are being misled today, just as the Pharisees misled many in Jesus day. Mt 7:14 tells us "...narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."

Are the Catholic priest clean of defilement and teaching the truths of God's word the Bible? Have their ever been splits in the Catholic church?

To find the truth's in the scriptures, they have to be searched out, like silver and gold. It takes a lot of work to find what is true and what is not. Most do not want to believe what is true. They are too hung up on tradition.


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## atcfisherman

shaggydog said:


> Many people are being misled today, just as the Pharisees misled many in Jesus day. Mt 7:14 tells us "...narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."
> 
> Are the Catholic priest clean of defilement and teaching the truths of God's word the Bible? Have their ever been splits in the Catholic church?
> 
> To find the truth's in the scriptures, they have to be searched out, like silver and gold. It takes a lot of work to find what is true and what is not. Most do not want to believe what is true. They are too hung up on tradition.


Just wondering, but did the "true religion" start in the 1870"s or with the disciples during Jesus' day?


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## atcfisherman

There are many "christian religions." Religions are man-made and "christian religions" are often christian, yet with too much man's influence. The doctrinal issues of salvation can never be changed. Jesus Christ was the final sacrifice for the worlds sins. He was and is the Son of God, God in the flesh and will return as scriptures states. Salvation is found in no one else!!! He is THE WAY and THE TRUE and THE LIFE!!!

The other doctrinal issues are just that. If one believes that having women in authority makes them loose their salvation, then they don't truly understand salvation. I'm not supporting or not supporting women in authority. My focus is strictly on Jesus Christ. I personally believe that all "christian denominations" or "christian religions" are missing the mark on some doctrinal issues. 

But the bottom line is salvation, which is only found in Jesus Christ. It isn't "Jesus + something." It is "Jesus ONLY!!!"

When I stand before God, or should I say fall on my face in utter shame, I can only proclaim the blood of Jesus Christ to cover my sins and make me whole. All of my works are as filthy rags in the sight of God. Only Jesus' sacrifice can make me whole.

So, I personally think we "as christians" must focus on salvation and sharing this awesome gift with everyone.

BTW, the church is the BODY of CHRIST, not a specific religious group!


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## WillieT

atcfisherman said:


> Just wondering, but did the "true religion" start in the 1870"s or with the disciples during Jesus' day?


True religion started with the "faithful men of old," before Jesus was on the earth. The true Christian congregation was formed in 33 CE, before that the Israelites were God's chosen people.


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## atcfisherman

So, is how can this specific religion be the real one with so many errors???

They deny the Deity of Christ:

Watchtower Teaching:
Jesus is a created being: "Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation." (Trinity Brochure page 14)
Jesus is Michael the Archangel: "Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ" (Reasoning from the Scriptures page 218)
The JW "bible" states: "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." (Jn1:1) Notice the article "a" and lower-case "god". With this wording they proclaim that Jesus was -one- of 'many' gods.
Biblical Teaching: 
Jesus created all things that were created, therefore it is impossible that he is a created being, unless he created himself. John1:3; Col1:16
Jesus is King of the kingdom. If Heb2:5 is true then it is impossible that Jesus is an angel, even an archangel. "..His Son...by Whom also He made the worlds...Who being...the express image of His essence..having made purification of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high, being made so much better than the angels...for to which of the angels did He say at any time, 'You are My Son, this day I have begotten Thee?' ... "You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands...but to which of the angels did He say at any time, 'Sit on My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool?' Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits...?" (~Heb-ch1)
"Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deu6:4) "I and the Father are One." (Jn10:30) "You shall have no other gods before Me." (Ex20:3)
They deny the physical resurrection of Jesus:

Watchtower Teaching: 

"Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more." (Live forever page 143) "Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?" (Reasoning from the Scriptures page 217) 
Biblical Teaching: 

Jesus would lay down the "temple of his body" and raise it up on the third day. Jn2:19-21 The word resurrection means that what died was raised up. If Jesus's body was not raised after it died then there was no resurrection. If there was no resurrection then our faith is in vain. 1Cor15:14 "But now Christ has risen from the dead" (vs20)

They deny the physical return of Christ:

Watchtower Teaching: 
If Christ was not raised physically then his return is invisible. They must reinterpret all references to Christ physical second advent. 
Biblical Teaching: 
Christ return to be physical and will be seen by all. Mt24:30; Mk14:62; Lk17:24; Rev 1:7; Tit2:13; 1Th4:16; Zech14:5


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## WillieT

atcfisherman said:


> So, is how can this specific religion be the real one with so many errors???
> 
> They deny the Deity of Christ:
> 
> Watchtower Teaching:
> Jesus is a created being: "Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation." (Trinity Brochure page 14)
> Jesus is Michael the Archangel: "Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ" (Reasoning from the Scriptures page 218)
> The JW "bible" states: "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." (Jn1:1) Notice the article "a" and lower-case "god". With this wording they proclaim that Jesus was -one- of 'many' gods.
> Biblical Teaching:
> Jesus created all things that were created, therefore it is impossible that he is a created being, unless he created himself. John1:3; Col1:16
> Jesus is King of the kingdom. If Heb2:5 is true then it is impossible that Jesus is an angel, even an archangel. "..His Son...by Whom also He made the worlds...Who being...the express image of His essence..having made purification of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high, being made so much better than the angels...for to which of the angels did He say at any time, 'You are My Son, this day I have begotten Thee?' ... "You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands...but to which of the angels did He say at any time, 'Sit on My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool?' Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits...?" (~Heb-ch1)
> "Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deu6:4) "I and the Father are One." (Jn10:30) "You shall have no other gods before Me." (Ex20:3)
> They deny the physical resurrection of Jesus:
> 
> Watchtower Teaching:
> 
> "Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more." (Live forever page 143) "Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?" (Reasoning from the Scriptures page 217)
> Biblical Teaching:
> 
> Jesus would lay down the "temple of his body" and raise it up on the third day. Jn2:19-21 The word resurrection means that what died was raised up. If Jesus's body was not raised after it died then there was no resurrection. If there was no resurrection then our faith is in vain. 1Cor15:14 "But now Christ has risen from the dead" (vs20)
> 
> They deny the physical return of Christ:
> 
> Watchtower Teaching:
> If Christ was not raised physically then his return is invisible. They must reinterpret all references to Christ physical second advent.
> Biblical Teaching:
> Christ return to be physical and will be seen by all. Mt24:30; Mk14:62; Lk17:24; Rev 1:7; Tit2:13; 1Th4:16; Zech14:5


You make a lot of assumptions. I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God, not God himself, and that God created Jesus, his first born. It was through Jesus that all other things were created. Just following what the Bible teaches. You do cite some false teachings. I do believe that Jesus was resurrected and that salvation is achieved through him.


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## Fish&Chips

Jesus is the son of God & he is also God. John1:1


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## WillieT

The last god should no be capitalized. Jesus is not god, he is the son of God. John 1:2 This one was in the beginning with God. Clearly speaking of two different entities. You must look at the whole picture.


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## atcfisherman

Sigh


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## Fish&Chips

shaggydog said:


> The last god should no be capitalized. Jesus is not god, he is the son of God. John 1:2 This one was in the beginning with God. Clearly speaking of two different entities. You must look at the whole picture.


Wrong shaggydog.


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## Fish&Chips

Shaggydog, you sure are sounding just like a Watchtower follower.


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## WillieT

John 1:2 This one was in the beginning with God. How many people are spoken of here? This one was, is one, with God, which is another one. It is not hard, and no I am not wrong.


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## Fish&Chips

And you're just going to ignore all the scriptures that atcfisherman referenced?


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> And you're just going to ignore all the scriptures that atcfisherman referenced?


There is a whole lot of babble. Sorry I know the scriptures and what they say. I do feel like the day will come when you will know the truth. I am not sure you will like it when you find out. God does not want anybody to be destroyed, but the time is coming in the not too distant future.

So you can't agree that John 1:2 is referencing two different entities? It clearly does, even if you want to deny it.


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## atcfisherman

Shaggy,

How is it a "whole lot of babble?" I put up scriptures and you refuse to acknowledge them. Yet you want to take a couple of scriptures and build your doctrine on those! Also, you statement above says you are the right one and no one else is right. I hate to see someone so bent on not seeing the truth or even at least having a good biblical debate without saying things like you did above. 

There are more scriptures about Jesus being God in the flesh than him not being. I can post them if you would like, but you wouldn't read them or either dismiss them. And about Jesus being created and the angle? Where is that? 

I actually have been away from this forum for awhile mostly because of the bickering going on in this section. Time to go again. And God is the one who knows my heart.


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## atcfisherman

BTW,

They deny the Deity of Christ:

Watchtower Teaching:
Jesus is a created being: "Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation." (Trinity Brochure page 14)
Jesus is Michael the Archangel: "Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ" (Reasoning from the Scriptures page 218)
The JW "bible" states: "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." (Jn1:1) Notice the article "a" and lower-case "god". With this wording they proclaim that Jesus was -one- of 'many' gods.*This is babble from a group who started in the 1870's.*

Biblical Teaching:
Jesus created all things that were created, therefore it is impossible that he is a created being, unless he created himself. John1:3; Col1:16
Jesus is King of the kingdom. If Heb2:5 is true then it is impossible that Jesus is an angel, even an archangel. "..His Son...by Whom also He made the worlds...Who being...the express image of His essence..having made purification of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high, being made so much better than the angels...for to which of the angels did He say at any time, 'You are My Son, this day I have begotten Thee?' ... "You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands...but to which of the angels did He say at any time, 'Sit on My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool?' Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits...?" (~Heb-ch1)
"Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deu6:4) "I and the Father are One." (Jn10:30) "You shall have no other gods before Me." (Ex20:3)
They deny the physical resurrection of Jesus:

Watchtower Teaching:
"Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more." (Live forever page 143) "Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?" (Reasoning from the Scriptures page 217)*This is babble from a group who started in the 1870's.*

Biblical Teaching:
Jesus would lay down the "temple of his body" and raise it up on the third day. Jn2:19-21 The word resurrection means that what died was raised up. If Jesus's body was not raised after it died then there was no resurrection. If there was no resurrection then our faith is in vain. 1Cor15:14 "But now Christ has risen from the dead" (vs20)

They deny the physical return of Christ:

Watchtower Teaching:
If Christ was not raised physically then his return is invisible. They must reinterpret all references to Christ physical second advent.*This is babble from a group who started in the 1870's.*

Biblical Teaching:
Christ return to be physical and will be seen by all. Mt24:30; Mk14:62; Lk17:24; Rev 1:7; Tit2:13; 1Th4:16; Zech14:5

I try not to single out a religion or belief usually because I believe there are some saved in these groups because God knows their hearts. but when one starts being dogmattic, then I will speak. Again, time to go!!!


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## Fish&Chips

Shaggy is the watchtower society biblically correct?


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## WillieT

atcfisherman said:


> Shaggy,
> 
> How is it a "whole lot of babble?" I put up scriptures and you refuse to acknowledge them. Yet you want to take a couple of scriptures and build your doctrine on those! Also, you statement above says you are the right one and no one else is right. I hate to see someone so bent on not seeing the truth or even at least having a good biblical debate without saying things like you did above.
> 
> There are more scriptures about Jesus being God in the flesh than him not being. I can post them if you would like, but you wouldn't read them or either dismiss them. And about Jesus being created and the angle? Where is that?
> 
> I actually have been away from this forum for awhile mostly because of the bickering going on in this section. Time to go again. And God is the one who knows my heart.


It's babble because you make too many assumptions. Also a lot of the things you reference are incorrect. Period. Think what you want to think. I do know the truth and the naysayers will be corrected when the time comes.

Fish you never answered the question, how many entities were referenced at John 1:2. If you come to the only possible correct conclusion, you should realize that you are being misled in other areas also. Also, when Jesus was baptized, who was it that spoke to him? Some people just do not want to think in a logical manner.

Kind of like our discussion on hellfire. How can God be the epitome of LOVE and yet torture his children. It does not make sense even to people that are not very smart. The scriptures are very clear, just reason on them.


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## Fish&Chips

One God in three persons (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit).

*John 10:30*
I and _My_ Father are one.

*"All should honor the Son just as
they honor the Father (Jn. 5:23). Yet, Jesus also said, 'You
shall worship the Lord your God, and him only you shall
serve' (Matt. 4:10). Since it is wrong to worship men or
angels, either the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong and Jesus
is God, or Jesus sinned in accepting worship."*


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## Fish&Chips

Fish&Chips said:


> Shaggy is the watchtower society biblically correct?


Shaggy, now can you answer my question?

BTW it seems like you are the one being mislead. Be very careful who you follow. Don't disregard things that just don't add up. Be wary of religious groups that tell you that you need to also follow another book apart from the bible.


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## grassman

*1 Timothy 3:16*

16 And *without* controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

*God* was manifested in the *flesh*,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

Reading the bible eliminates any questions over doctrinal differences that man creates. The bible will always answer our questions.
*2 Timothy 3:16*

16 All Scripture _is_ given by inspiration of God, and _is_ profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,


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## WillieT

grassman said:


> *1 Timothy 3:16*
> 
> 16 And *without* controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
> 
> *God* was manifested in the *flesh*,
> Justified in the Spirit,
> Seen by angels,
> Preached among the Gentiles,
> Believed on in the world,
> Received up in glory.
> 
> Reading the bible eliminates any questions over doctrinal differences that man creates. The bible will always answer our questions.
> *2 Timothy 3:16*
> 
> 16 All Scripture _is_ given by inspiration of God, and _is_ profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,


God has never been manifested in the flesh. Jesus has.


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> God has never been manifested in the flesh. Jesus has.


Then why does it say God was manifested in the flesh?


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## WillieT

Please look at Exodus 33:20. In this account God is speaking to Moses. It reads, "And he added: You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live."

Many people saw Jesus when he was on earth and lived, because he is the son of god, not the Almighty God.

Here is the quote from the King James version, since a lot of people like to look at a more difficult rendering of the Bible.

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

- King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition

Most true Bible students are well aware of this verse. It makes it very clear that God and Jesus were not one and the same.


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## atcfisherman

To much twisting of scripture or taking certain scriptures out of context for me to continue. But, I will address one isses.

When Moses was in the presence of God and God made the statement about not being able to see his face, that is truth. However, we must remember that Jesus was God made in the flesh.

He was not 100% man because his father was the holy spirt, not a sinful man. He gave up his rights as God to be the son of God for our sins.

These scriptures are very clear!!!

*Philippians 2:6-7*
6 Who, being in very nature of God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, *he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.*


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## grassman

*Jesus was God in man form made lower than the angels born of a woman under the law. Therefore they could come into His presence. Moses was dealing with God in " God" form not man so he was unable to come into His presence.*

How would you break John 1 down to back up your claims that Jesus is not God?
*John 1 *

*The Eternal Word*

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


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## WillieT

Both of you twist the scriptures and misapply them. 

When Jesus was baptized, who spoke to him? King James version Matthew 3:16,17

Viewing the Standard King James Version (Pure Cambridge). Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Matthew Chapter 3

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Sorry guys, you are wrong. John 1:1 has been addressed. Look at John 1:2 and tell me how many entities it is speaking of. 1+1 ain't 1


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> Both of you twist the scriptures and misapply them.
> 
> When Jesus was baptized, who spoke to him? King James version Matthew 3:16,17
> 
> Viewing the Standard King James Version (Pure Cambridge). Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Matthew Chapter 3
> 
> 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
> 
> 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
> 
> Sorry guys, you are wrong. John 1:1 has been addressed. Look at John 1:2 and tell me how many entities it is speaking of. 1+1 ain't 1


OK. Can you share your beliefs of who Jesus was/is. What role did He play, where did He come from, where was He on the Holy heirarchy, etc.


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## WillieT

Jesus was the son of the Almighty God. He is our savior and it is only through his shed blood that we have the hope of salvation. He is the firstborn of God and is in heaven at God's right hand. He is our King.


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> Jesus was the son of the Almighty God. He is our savior and it is only through his shed blood that we have the hope of salvation. He is the firstborn of God and is in heaven at God's right hand. He is our King.


Can you elaborate on the term "firstborn." How do you read or define that word?


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## WillieT

God created him before anything else.


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## grassman

The Greek manuscripts clear this passage up. You will find the word Protokosos which means priority. The greek word protoktizo which is translated to first created.

In the greek manuscripts Paul used Protokosos (meaning highest priority) not protoktisis meaning first created.

Paul was saying that Jesus has the highest rank over creation.


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## WillieT

Now let's play you answer the question.

When Jesus was baptized, who spoke to him? King James version Matthew 3:16,17

Viewing the Standard King James Version (Pure Cambridge). Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Matthew Chapter 3

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


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## WillieT

grassman, I am going to use one of your old posts. Please identify how many people are involved here.



Its scary to think of how many folks are buying in to that world. Best line in the whole thing

Jesus was blunt: "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

It comes from this thread. SBNR...
Views: 270
Posted By grassman


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## atcfisherman

Show us scriptures please. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## WillieT

If you are asking me for scriptures, everything I asked had scriptures attached.


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## atcfisherman

Stop playing games and show scriptures that Jesus was created. 

The Word Became Flesh
JOHN 
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and g the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## WillieT

Viewing the Standard King James Version (Pure Cambridge). Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Colossians Chapter 1


15Who is the image (Jesus) of the invisible God (Almighty God), the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn(Jesus) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father (God) that in him should all fulness dwell.

Now I am through playing your stupid games. I have answered all the questions presented, yet none of mine have been answered. You continue to attack the Witnesses and make assumptions. Do whatever you want, but I will not answer any more of your questions.

Have you ever been expelled from a religion?


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## WillieT

One more scripture just to drive the point home.

Matthew 11:27

Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Matthew 11:27.

All things are delivered unto me(Jesus) of my Father(God): and no man knoweth the Son(Jesus), but the Father(God); neither knoweth any man the Father(God), save the Son(Jesus), and he to whomsoever the Son(Jesus) will reveal him.

Yes, the scriptures are quite clear, unfortunately some want to deny what is right in front of their face.


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## atcfisherman

Shaggy,

I can see where you are coming from. But, what about the scripture I posted?

JOHN 
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and g the life was the light of men.

*Also, I apologize for being attackful!!! It seems to be one of my "good character traits." LOL*


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## grassman

Colossians 1;15
He is the image of the invisible God.

Imagine wind blowing. You have three items in play. The force that makes it blow, air, and the visual. They are all seperate but are all wind. The air is the invisible God. The visual (dust/waves) is Jesus, and the force behind it is the Holy Spirit.

Without a relationship with Jesus, Gods word is foolishness. To truly understand it we have to have the helper.

1 Corinthians 2:14

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know _them,_ because they are spiritually discerned.


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## WillieT

He is the image in that he reflects his Father perfectly, in thought and actions. You cannot and will not ever see God, but many saw Jesus. Your analogy is apples and oranges. Too many scriptures make it very clear that they are not one entity. Many that are taught the Trinity doctrine, when asked if Jesus and God are one entity or separate will tell you that they have never understood how that could be. I know that for a fact because I was raised a Methodist and my mother and all her brothers and sisters (11 in all), always said that Jesus was the Son of God, without question.

Just one of those mysteries, like Fish said in a thread in the Jungle once, I guess. lol Just doesn't make sense.

You never answered any of my questions. Who spoke when Jesus came out of the water at his baptizm?


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## Fish&Chips

Shaggy so you agree with the Pharisees? Jesus wasn't God?

*John 10:33*
The Jews answered Him, saying, â€œFor a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.â€


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## Fish&Chips

*Jesus is God*

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, â€œLet Us make man in *Our image*, according to *Our likeness*;


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## WillieT

As usual you are twisting. No Jesus is not God. I think I have been very clear on that, but you have to be redundant. Our image is plural, meaning more than one, since you do not seem to understand. My 2 year old grandson know our means more than one. You validate my point but still want to argue, and argue is all you want to do.


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## Fish&Chips

God is the creator. He is the first and the last. 
He is Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

What don't you understand? So you do agree with the Pharisees that Jesus was not God. Thanks for clearing that up Shaggy. And you talk about twisting scriptures? Please, stop trying to mislead people.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> God is the creator. He is the first and the last.
> He is Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.
> 
> What don't you understand? So you do agree with the Pharisees that Jesus was not God. Thanks for clearing that up Shaggy. And you talk about twisting scriptures? Please, stop trying to mislead people.


God is the creator, he created Jesus, and he has a holy spirit, which he uses to achieve his purposes. Three different entities. I will not address the same questions any more. They have been explained. If you want to live in the darkness, so be it.

And just because the Pharisees added burden to the people, they knew the scriptures very well, just did not follow them. Just like people have head knowledge today, but do not try to live the scriptures. The did know that Jesus was not God, because he was not God, but they did not recognize him as the Messiah, whom was sent by God. They had been taught exactly what to look for and how to recognize him when he arrived.

And God is the alpha and omega, the first and the last, but Jesus is not God, nor is he the alpha and the omega.

Another thing, if you recognize that God's name is Jehovah, and we are speaking of Jesus, how can they be the same person. Let me put it in simple terms for you. I am shaggy, you are fish. Are we one or two people?

One last point, Jesus was a god (John 1:1), just not the Almighty God.


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## Fish&Chips

*Jesus is the First and the Last; Alpha and Omega*

*Isaiah 44:6*
â€œThus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
â€˜I _am_ the First and I _am_ the Last;
Besides Me _there is_ no God.

*Revelation 1:8*
â€œI am the Alpha and the Omega, _the_ Beginning and _the_ End,â€[a] says the Lord,[b] â€œwho is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.â€

*Revelation 1:17-18*
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[a] â€œDo not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I _am_ He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

*Revelation 22:12-13*
12 â€œAnd behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward _is_ with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, _the_ Beginning and _the_ End, the First and the Last."

*Titus 2:13*
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


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## grassman

Shaggy

What is your understanding of 1 John 5:7

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Not looking for a fight just interested in how you read it and if that differs from my understanding.


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## WillieT

Look at the scriptures following 1 John 5-7.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

It is true that it states the three are one, but the best way I can explain it is when a man and woman get married, it is said that they have become one, not one person, but united as one. The later versus show that Jesus and God are two separate entities. 

Look at John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Jesus is speaking. It may seem confusing until you look at John 10:22, it is cleared up. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Jesus was talking to his disciples. They were united in their thinking, they were of one mind.

If you and I agree on something we are of like minded, we are one of mind. Not the same person.


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## grassman

So where is it that we differ? You agree that the three are of one mind and equal. Where is the breakdown?


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## WillieT

They are of one mind. They are separate entities and are certainly not equal. There is only one Almighty God. Jesus is his son. Holy spirit is his active force that he uses to accomplish his purposes. God is above all others.


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## grassman

Well, I dont know about the not equal part. That was one of the many reasons He was crucified. He claimed to be equal to the Father.

John 5:18

....Said that God was His Father, making Himself equal to God....


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## WillieT

Jesus did not say he was equal to God, his accusers did. One last scripture and I am through addressing this. It is quite clear Jesus and God are two different entities and certainly not equal, as is PROVED in this scripture.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


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## grassman

If you were being stoned by people calling you something you were not wouldnt you correct them?

When accustations against Christ were made He either confirmed or denied. When He was being accused of breaking the Sabbath He denied and explained what was going on. 

Also study in Ephesians 5 what submission looks like. Jesus was perfect at submitting.


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## Fish&Chips

Jehova identifies himself as I am.
Jesus also identifies himself as I am.

Yes there is a hierarchy in the trinity.

If God is love, who did he love before creation? Jesus has always existed just as Jehova and the Holy Spirit.

*Isaiah 9:6*
*For unto us a Child is born,*
*Unto us a Son is given;*
*And the government will be upon His shoulder.*
*And His name will be called*
*Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,*
*Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.*

*The child was born unto us, yet the Son is given because he has always existed.

There will always be majesty and mystery in God. When we get to heaven maybe things will be more clear.


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## DFA

*Isaiah 55:8-9*

8 â€œFor My thoughts are not your thoughts,
and your ways are not My ways.â€
This is the Lordâ€™s declaration.
9 â€œFor as heaven is higher than earth,
so My ways are higher than your ways,
and My thoughts than your thoughts.

Maybe man is not to understand it...hence the arguments that spring forth....


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## WillieT

DFA said:


> *Isaiah 55:8-9*
> 
> 8 â€œFor My thoughts are not your thoughts,
> and your ways are not My ways.â€
> This is the Lordâ€™s declaration.
> 9 â€œFor as heaven is higher than earth,
> so My ways are higher than your ways,
> and My thoughts than your thoughts.
> 
> Maybe man is not to understand it...hence the arguments that spring forth....


It is really very understandable, if you can look past what you have been taught, "just because that is the way it is."


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## Pods

Shaggydog,
Greetings, Maybe this will help clarify the issue on Jesus being God:
The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

I got this from gotquestions.com

Great resource that is spot on from the Bible, go there and snoop.

Pods


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## stdreb27

I'm not a believer in denominations. For instance I would never tell anyone I'm a baptist or Methodist etc.
But we are a body, made up of eyes ears hands feet etc. 
and as the good book says, (and I'm roughly paraphrasing) the eye shouldn't mock the hand for not being able to see.
It also says they shall know you are My children by the way you treat one another...

So as long as you get the basics right, (salvation) and follow the 2 most important commandments, love The Lord you God, and love your neighbor.

We'll get a long just fine...


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## WillieT

Pods said:


> Shaggydog,
> Greetings, Maybe this will help clarify the issue on Jesus being God:
> The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
> 
> I got this from gotquestions.com
> 
> Great resource that is spot on from the Bible, go there and snoop.
> 
> Pods


Jesus is not God. Jesus was a perfect man, Adam was a perfect man, the sacrifice of Jesus as a perfect man paid back exactly what Adam had lost. A perfect man for a perfect man. A few questions for you. 
1) Whom spoke to Jesus when he was baptized? King James Version of Matthew 3:17.

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

2) The scripture at John 14:28 states

King James Version of John 14:28.

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
This is Jesus speaking, saying, the Father is greater than I am. Who was he speaking about? Hint It was not himself.

3) Whom was Jesus praying to at Luke 22:41,42
41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Another hint. It was not himself.

We could go on and on and I could show many other scriptures that clearly show that Jesus is the Son of God, not God. 1 John 2:2 is speaking of Jesus, as is 2Corinthians 5:21.


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## TrueblueTexican

*Blind leading the Blind*

The HOLY SPIRIT which you received on the DAY YOU decided to be a follower of Jesus, allows your understanding of Gods inspired word handed down by man through teaching in scripture. We don't understand holy, we don't remove our sandals in holy places, its become an alien kin.

Many authorities lead denominations astray and on the DAY they stand before God and he opens the book of their lives will be told - "GO AWAY I DON'T KNOW YOU."

The problem is NOT with Christianity, (the FOLLOWERS of Christ), but there are untold problems due to doctrinal schisims in DENOMINATIONS.

You will KNOW a Christian by the fruit of what comes from his mouth, and the bare patches on a Christians knees.

A CHURCH is a place to get clean, and fellowship with like minded, otherwise it just a building full of feel good.

Billy Graham once remarked, after being asked what he would like to do upon retiring from ministry said "study my bible until God takes me home"

The more Christians that seek understanding by cracking Gods word, the closer they will move to their Creator, and realize we have but ONE great commission "tell others about Jesus"

"Daniel relates, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The op in the article points to failure of the Church politic, when really the schisims are to be expected as uncovered physical history is tied into SPIRITUAL history.

Gods word is germane to our SPIRITUAL CONDITION, and without the Holy Spirit as a guide are largely nonsense.

Ergo - Christianity hasn't failed, the failure lies with unholy, imperfect man with an imperfect knowledge, standing in a bully pulpit spouting doctrine to follow the latest imperfections.

Jesus said it quite simply "take up your cross and follow me" that's all I need and all I need to tell others -

I hope on the day we all stand before our maker, he will forgive the blinders we allow Lucifer to put on us.


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## atcfisherman

Shaggy,

Adam was not perfect because he willingly sinned by taking of the fruit of the forbidden tree. Before that, he and eve were made perfect. However they were given a choice and chose to disobey God, thus they were perfect no more. 

Also, Jesus did not have an earthly father because it was necessary for him to be "God in the flesh" and man too, yet without sin. After the fall of man through Adam, no one can be perfect because we have our sinful nature. Jesu by not having an earthly father was not born with sin nature because he was part of God here in human body. 

You keep pulling out one scripture about when Jesus was baptized, yet you refuse to look at other scriptures. Furthermore, we can tell based on your aggressive responses that that you get upset when others try to point out the errors. That is a tell tale sign. 
______________________________________________________________________________________________
The 1611 King James version of John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, & the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

It does not say, "was a god.". That was introduced by the JW
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
The 1611 King James version of John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among vs and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the onely begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
The 1611 King James version of John 10:30

"I and my father are one."

This is very clear that Jesus and God are one. Can't mess this one up. 
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
The 1611 King James version of Isaiah 9:6
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of peace."

Only God can be all of these attributes. 
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
The 1611 King James version of John 20:8
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Here Thomas is clearly calling Jesus God. 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
The 1611 King James version of John 8:58
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

In the old testament, God said He was "I am.". So if Jesus isn't God, then he was lying by saying he is "I am.". Which, by the way, "I am" indicates He was before all time and will always be. 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
The 1611 King James version Titus 2:13
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

If Jesus isn't "God in the flesh," then the writer of Titus was wrong in saying the above scripture that Jesus is the great God. 
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
The 1611 King James version Colossians 1:16
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

Only God can create. Genesis says that God created everything. Here in Colossians the written is speaking of Jesus in these passages. 
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
The 1611 King James version Matthew 1:23
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

Extremely clear stating "God with us.". 
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
The 1611 King James version 1 John 5:20
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

Again, if Jesus isn't God in the flesh, then the writer of 1 John was wrong in saying Jesus was the true God and eternal life. 
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

I could show you many more scriptures but I doubt it would change your mind. Pride is often the down fall of many and I hope you can set it aside. As I mentioned to you in a PM, I understand how one can say that Jesus was only God's Son. But if one looks at the entire bible, it is obvious that He is God Son from an earthly stand point, but "God in the flesh" for salvation purposes because only a perfect sacrifice can atone for man's sins and no one is perfect except God. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## WillieT

I have the truth, as Jesus did. While Jesus had many followers while on earth, the very great majority did not follow his teachings. So be it.

If you gave a bible to a well educated man, that had never been influenced by any religious teachings, and asked him to read the Bible, then asked him what Jesus relationship to God was, there is only one conclusion he could draw. That Jesus was the son of God. No where in the bible is the trinity or any triune spoken of. If ther is please show me the scripture. This idea was conceived by man, not by God. Sorry I look at all the scriptures to draw my conclusions. Those that believe in the trinity base it on two scriptures.


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## WillieT

atcfisherman said:


> Shaggy,
> 
> Adam was not perfect because he willingly sinned by taking of the fruit of the forbidden tree. Before that, he and eve were made perfect. However they were given a choice and chose to disobey God, thus they were perfect no more.
> 
> Also, Jesus did not have an earthly father because it was necessary for him to be "God in the flesh" and man too, yet without sin. After the fall of man through Adam, no one can be perfect because we have our sinful nature. Jesu by not having an earthly father was not born with sin nature because he was part of God here in human body.
> 
> You keep pulling out one scripture about when Jesus was baptized, yet you refuse to look at other scriptures. Furthermore, we can tell based on your aggressive responses that that you get upset when others try to point out the errors. That is a tell tale sign.
> ______________________________________________________________________________________________
> The 1611 King James version of John 1:1
> "In the beginning was the Word, & the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
> 
> It does not say, "was a god.". That was introduced by the JW
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> The 1611 King James version of John 1:14
> "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among vs and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the onely begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> The 1611 King James version of John 10:30
> 
> "I and my father are one."
> 
> This is very clear that Jesus and God are one. Can't mess this one up.
> _____________________________________________________________________________________________
> The 1611 King James version of Isaiah 9:6
> "For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of peace."
> 
> Only God can be all of these attributes.
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> The 1611 King James version of John 20:8
> "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
> 
> Here Thomas is clearly calling Jesus God.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> The 1611 King James version of John 8:58
> "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
> 
> In the old testament, God said He was "I am.". So if Jesus isn't God, then he was lying by saying he is "I am.". Which, by the way, "I am" indicates He was before all time and will always be.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> The 1611 King James version Titus 2:13
> "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"
> 
> If Jesus isn't "God in the flesh," then the writer of Titus was wrong in saying the above scripture that Jesus is the great God.
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> The 1611 King James version Colossians 1:16
> "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
> 
> Only God can create. Genesis says that God created everything. Here in Colossians the written is speaking of Jesus in these passages.
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> The 1611 King James version Matthew 1:23
> "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
> 
> Extremely clear stating "God with us.".
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________
> The 1611 King James version 1 John 5:20
> "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."
> 
> Again, if Jesus isn't God in the flesh, then the writer of 1 John was wrong in saying Jesus was the true God and eternal life.
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> I could show you many more scriptures but I doubt it would change your mind. Pride is often the down fall of many and I hope you can set it aside. As I mentioned to you in a PM, I understand how one can say that Jesus was only God's Son. But if one looks at the entire bible, it is obvious that He is God Son from an earthly stand point, but "God in the flesh" for salvation purposes because only a perfect sacrifice can atone for man's sins and no one is perfect except God.
> 
> In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


Adam was created perfect.

I have addressed 1John 1:1

You make my point at John 1:14 Jesus was word, word (Jesus) was made flesh when he came to earth. Further in the scripture it says only begotten (Jesus) of the Father (God). Two separate entities. Thanks for bringing that out.

John 10:30. They were one, as in one mind, Jesus was the reflection of God. Example: Two people get married, they become one. Heard it many times. They become one but they are not the same person. Will try to answer more later, but as I said I am through debating.

You are great at asking questions, but the questions I pose to you are NEVER addressed.


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## tngbmt

i'm not good enuf to quote scripture, but can i squeeze in a thought ...
do you believe in prayers?
let's take an example, if 3 people asked god change the bread and wine in the catholic mass to be his body & blood .. would god ignore them? if i believe a miracle can happened through prayers, does it need my visual, physical confirmation before i can believe? we have begun a process that place the ego part before the faith part. in my 1st post in this forum i stated that through translations, deductions & scholarly chest beating, we have trip over the genesis flaw in man. we're trying to understand god with our intellectual capability. we want to be equal to god, to think what god intended and to teach what god wants. thus, the babel effect of denominations.
through our faith we believe that prayer works. i study less, have faith in prayers, pray for guidance. i open scripture to hear god's word, never to decipher what it means. myself, i am not trying to find god, not even to get closer to god.. i pray that he bring me closer to him through his grace. i pray for this grace and the wisdom to know my limitations. until you place your trust in Him, your ego will always get in the way of His grace.


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## atcfisherman

You are adding to the scripture in John 10:30 to fit your doctrine. I'd says clearly they were one. It does not say they were one in like mind. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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