# Fly Fishing from Kayak



## FishTTU (Feb 20, 2009)

I have been considering getting a kayak and wondered how casting is from a 'yak. From those that have experience throwing loops from a yak, did you have to modify your cast at all? Are there other factors that I'm not even considering? 

I like the idea of a flatstalker, but i think it is too one dimensional (you cant really take it out on windy days, your limited where you can fish, and it is slower and less maneuverable than a kayak), but you can stand up and fish from the elevated platform. 

I guess my question in general is for fly-fisherman on the coast, how is the kayak experience?


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## Salty Dog (Jan 29, 2005)

For me the toughest part isn't the casting, it is managing the line. I typically slowly cover ground just easing along until I see a fish, get in position and then cast to that fish. With baitcasting or spinning gear it is no problem since I can lay the rod between my legs and once in position can quickly pick it up and make a cast. With a flyrod you have all the line to deal with and that is where my challenge comes in.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

The closest I've ever gotten to a redfish is in my kayak. It is magnum cool just drifting along approaching tailing reds. You do have to tighten up your loop. Can't afford to slap the water on your back cast or drop to low and make a big splash going forward. The good news is that your casts can often be MUCH SHORTER.

THE JAMMER


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

casting from a kayak is like casting while sitting indian-style in an open field on a windy day. best way I could think to describe it. not hard, just maybe not so fun (for me at least).

unless it's really calm, use the kayak to get there, then get up and wade.

if you want to cast from the yak, a 10' rod will help a lot.

suerte...


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## FishTTU (Feb 20, 2009)

Ish- when you find tailing reds or when you get out to wade has spooking fish ever been an issue? Aside from a flats boat, is there a prefered vessel to fly fish from?


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## FlySouth (Feb 25, 2009)

The times I fly fished from a kayak, I spent more time being frustrated than fishing. Your line gets tangled on everything. You make a cast at a fish and the wind blows you out of position before you can start retrieving line. 
These days, if I even use a kayak, I just use the yak to get somewhere and hop out and wade. I've even tied my yak to my belt and towed it around while I wade (assuming the wind isnt too bad and you arent trying to get anywere too fast).
A kayak can get you places other waders (and some boaters) cant get to.

If I had it to do all over again, I would probably save my money and buy an old jon boat with a 15 hp and use it to get to spots to wade. They arent as cool as a flats boat and sylish as a kayak, but they work.


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

FishTTU said:


> Ish- when you find tailing reds or when you get out to wade has spooking fish ever been an issue? Aside from a flats boat, is there a prefered vessel to fly fish from?


nope. just go slow. so slow you can't hear yourself moving. it takes patience (many people don't have it), but if you don't make any noise, the fish aren't going to go anywhere.

for TX redfish, my preferred vessel is a pair of wade boots. that is unless I luck out and can find someone who can actually pole a boat right. then i prefer my skiff.


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## TailStalker (May 11, 2006)

http://capmel.com/flying_in_a_kayak_or_canoe.htm

**	
According to kayak flyfishing expert Kevin Fenn, paddling flyfishers enjoy a gratifying way to fish! The combination of this ancient angling art with a paddle craft can a most exhilarating challenge. Fenn says that fly-fishing from a canoe or kayak is yet another fascinating side of paddle fishing. "I've personally found fly-fishing easier and productive from a paddle craft, so I'm going to provide some tips to make it a hassle free way to fish.

By Kevin Fenn

First, let's talk about the rods used when fishing from these type of vessels. Since anglers are sitting or are standing just a few feet above the water, some find it difficult to cast. One solution may be a longer fly rod. Most anglers opt for the ever-popular nine-foot rod. But choosing a ten-foot rod, you will gain more height over the water and be able to make a cast rather than having your line slap on your casts. However, you should weigh the advantages of additional length against losing some of the accuracy that you might need.

Something else you may want to try is going with a bigger rod weight. I often find myself using a ten weight in my kayak. I choose the heavier rod weight so that I can load up quickly and, because of the line size, I can get my cast out with a minimum of false casting. While others see the heavier rod weight as a bother, I feel it helps you look at the water more (sight-fishing) rather than blind casting.

Another way to help get your casts off faster when paddle fishing is using a rod with a larger line size. What I mean is, if you have an eight-weight rod, try a nine or ten weight line. This will help you load quickly and enables you to make more casts than if you were throwing that ten weight rod.

Once again, I have to stress that these are just tips to try. I often read advice telling you not to load up on fly line. I can tell you from my own experience it works.

There are many different kinds of reels on today's market to entice fly fisherman.. Onethat is gaining popularity among the paddle fishing and wading crowd is the Dan Reel. Here is a plastic polymer reel with no parts to corrode or get damaged. Also, if you fish from a paddle vessel or wade, it floats should you happen to drop it in the water. Because the reel is so light, it floats because of the buoyancy of the cork in the handle of the rod. And the reason I really like this reel is the price; it sells for only $59.95 in many stores. Not bad when most things in the sport are relatively expensive.

The best advice I can give when talking about fly-casting is practice, practice, practice! Fly-fishing is tough enough regularly, but when you are sitting down or kneeling, it only gets even more difficult.

One problem solver I discovered is shortening your cast. Remember this: in a kayak or canoe you are as silent and stealthy as the fish you stalk. Therefore, you should only make short casts (10-30ft.) to your target. Speeding up your tempo on casts will also help. It will keep line speed up in the air and not flailing behind or in front of you. Also try casting side arm; it is more efficient and allows you to punch through the wind.

Often when I go to trade shows I can tell who fly-fishes in saltwater versus fresh water by the style of casting the angler has. Trout fisherman usually cast straight over the head while flats-fishermen cast more to the side.

Line management is also an important thing to consider. Often I take out a client that wants to try and fly fish from a kayak. It's not the casting that kills their enjoyment; it is the tangle they get when casting that does! One solution, as mentioned earlier, is to shorten your cast.

Another good tip is to take along a beach towel (if in Canoe) or a common bath towel (if in Kayak). The towel will keep you from getting your line hung on gear and rigging on your vessel. Where do you place that towel? Lay it across your lap (if in Kayak) or lay it across the gunnels (if in canoe). If the towel won't stay put, dip it in the water and it will surely grip. You might also try stripping your line out of the vessel and into the water.

Something else to try when fly-fishing is teasing up a fish. Often I will take a spinning rod, grab a top-water plug, remove the hooks from it and cast it out. This way when a fish attacks the lure it will not get hooked and I can find out where he's hiding. I can then make a cast with the fly rod and hook up. I learned this method watching sail-fishing in Costa Rica. I promise you this is a sure fire way to cover those grass flats when your arm is too weak to cast or your new to that water.

Lastly I'd like to say that fly-fishing is, without a doubt, the most artistic way to fish. Combine that with the fastest growing segment in fishing, and you're sure to connect with a powerful experience!


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

TS - All of these tips are good for helping a noob cheat their way into catching some fish, but these techniques will hurt them in the long run when they decide to step up to the big leagues and chase tough species like Keys tarpon, bones, and permit. With those fish, there is no subsitute for correct technique. 

It's alot easier to learn it right the first time than to have to go back, break old habits, and re-learn how to do it right.

Here's a couple of things to think about:




Fenn said:


> Something else you may want to try is going with a bigger rod weight. I often find myself using a ten weight in my kayak. I choose the heavier rod weight so that I can load up quickly and, because of the line size, I can get my cast out with a minimum of false casting. While others see the heavier rod weight as a bother, I feel it helps you look at the water more (sight-fishing) rather than blind casting.


Why not just learn how to cast right? If you're doing it right, a 6-8 weight will load just as easily as (some would argue easier than) a 10 weight. (The only time the 10 has a casting advantage is when you are trying to shoot lots of line into windy conditions or you've hooked a 40+lb fish.) If you're doing it wrong, the 10 won't load right either (or any better), and you'll just be flailing more weight around.




> _Another way to help get your casts off faster when paddle fishing is using a rod with a larger line size. What I mean is, if you have an eight-weight rod, try a nine or ten weight line. This will help you load quickly and enables you to make more casts than if you were throwing that ten weight rod._


Or just learn to cast right and stop using a crutch.

What proponents of overlining fail to tell you is that it overstresses the rod. Over time it will break the rod down faster and "loosen" it up. Once that happens, you won't be able to cast either the heavy line or the rated line as well as before the rod's flex broke down.

"This will help you load quickly and *enables you to make more casts than if you were throwing that ten weight rod*."

Huh?




> _I often read advice telling you not to load up on fly line. I can tell you from my own experience it works._


It does work for loading up quick on short casts, but what if you have to make a longer shot? 
"..._if you have an eight-weight rod, try a nine or ten weight line."_
Good luck shooting a 10 wt. line on an 8 wt. rod 40+ ft.

Do you really want to rely on a crutch that will stress your rod faster? Seems to me it's better pay your dues and learn how to do it right to begin with.




> _...One problem solver I discovered is shortening your cast. Remember this: in a kayak or canoe you are as silent and stealthy as the fish you stalk. *Therefore, you should only make short casts (10-30ft.)* to your target. Speeding up your tempo on casts will also help. It will keep line speed up in the air and not flailing behind or in front of you. Also try casting side arm; it is more efficient and allows you to punch through the wind. _


If the fish is only 10-30 ft. away, why not make a subtle roll cast and eliminate fish spooking false casts?

What if the fish is 40-90 feet out? Still make a 10-30 ft. cast? Why creep up on the fish and risk spooking it when you can stay back off the fish and simply make a little longer cast?

Good timing and keeping the tip up are what keeps the line up in the air, not "speeding up your tempo."

What he fails to warn you about is not rocking the boat when "speeding up your tempo." Rock the boat when the fish is 10-30 feet away and you can forget about catching that fish.




> _Something else to try when fly-fishing is teasing up a fish. Often I will take a spinning rod, grab a top-water plug, remove the hooks from it and cast it out. This way when a fish attacks the lure it will not get hooked and I can find out where he's hiding. I can then make a cast with the fly rod and hook up. I learned this method watching sail-fishing in Costa Rica. I promise you this is a sure fire way to cover those grass flats *when your arm is too weak to cast* or your new to that water._


Seriously? Bait and switch in a foot of water? Teasing up fish is used to bring fish "up" from deeper water, or "up" on the boat. Pelagic fish are much less wary of boats than flats fish are. I'd prefer the fish to stay right where it is, undisturbed, while I position myself for a presentation.

If you're blind casting conventional gear on a flat to find fish instead of stalking and sight fishing, why not just leave the hooks on the plug and "hook up" on the initial strike?

If you arm is too weak to cast, should you really be out in a kayak? (How are you going to paddle back in?)

Maybe your arm's too weak from blind casting that 10 wt. all day&#8230;

I hope all this gives you all some things to consider.

Gratutitous smart-a** comment =




> _Lastly I'd like to say that fly-fishing is, without a doubt, the most artistic way to fish._


That's why I do it&#8230;for the art.


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## Stuart (May 21, 2004)

Ish, you do know Tailstalker = Mr. Fenn? That said, I'm pretty sure he has thousands of hours on the water with a fly rod in his hand and i know he has built a few hundred technical skiffs. I wouldn't discount what he says so fast. He says they are merely tips. FishTTU doesn't say what his proficiency is with a fly rod. For me, a schmuck, I'd be willing to try some of this. I don't see where he is professing using bad casting habits, only tweaking equipment and managing the length of the cast.


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## FlySouth (Feb 25, 2009)

I've got to agree with Ish on this one.
The article is proposing short term solutions for a long term problem.

I am a bass junkie and enjoy topwater action with large bugs. I spent more money and time trying to throw large bugs by investing in equipment (heavier lines, bass / pike tapers) than I should have. I finally decided to take casting lessons instead of buying more junk. I quickly found out that the failure was in my casting and not in my equipment. I still up line occasionaly for specific situations, but I am better trained to recognize the drawbacks of this.

I dont think the author should be discredited because he obviously knows what he is talking about and has probably caught a hell of a lot more fish than me, but I dont know if his advice is best for the novice.

One question for Ish though. I have never heard of a rod loosing its ability to load over time because it is breaking down. As I said earlier, I up line my rod occasionaly for short casts with heavy flies, but I dont see any difference in the loading of my 8 wt with 15-20 ft of 9wt line out the tip as I do with 30-40 ft of 8wt line out the tip. I havent been fly fishing long enough to "wear" a rod out. Could you shed some light on this?


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

Stuart said:


> Ish, you do know Tailstalker = Mr. Fenn?


didn't know/don't care/who's kevin fenn?

does that take away from any of the points i made?

much like he offered tips for people to consider, so did i. only difference is i'm not a self-proclaimed expert.



TailStalker said:


> According to kayak flyfishing expert Kevin Fenn,...
> 
> By Kevin Fenn
> First, let's talk about...


i just tried to offer an alternative view based on personal observations over the last ~20 years sight fishing coastal waters.

if you don't like it,.... meh. [shrug]


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

flysouth - don't know that i can shed any light, but...

graphite/fiberglass products breakdown over time if they are flexed enough. do I have scienetific data that backs that up, no, but i'm not the only one who's noticed this. 

another great example other than rods is push poles. 

anyone who's had one long enough has noticed their pole start to soften up/flex more compared with a new one. they usually start making comments about how it feels like the pole is "breaking down", "feels like a noodle", and "about to break"....

fishing rods do the same thing. i was curious about it once and took one of my 12 weights that i'd caught many large tarpon on (flexed severely)and compared it to a brand new rod (same exact model) in a fly shop. we measured the flex of the new rod and the flex of the worn out rod and the difference was VERY noticeable. 

my father actually had one of his "ancient" graphite rods break while simply making a cast. he loved the old rod and refused to replace it no matter how soft it got. one day after using the rod all day, he made a regular cast and the thing snapped in the middle on the forward stroke. when he sent it in for warranty, the manufacturer couldn't believe how long it had lasted.

as far as different lengths of different weights of line out of the end of the tip-top, you're right. but having been around many anglers with overlined rods over the years, every single one of them in most cases shot as much line as they could on their casts. they'd take a shot at a fish from as far back as possible to lessen chances of spooking the fish, and in the end, their cast (or effort) was much more than the ~15-30 foot distance they claimed to have loaded up for (keep in mind 30 feet is just a tad longer than 3 rod lengths). They overstressed their line each time they made a cast longer than that ~30 ft.

does that make sense?

i'm not saying overlining here or there will wear out your rod overnight. it won't, but it will break the rod down faster over time. and i'm not telling people not to overline, cuz it does work. i'm just suggesting you fix the problem rather than putting a band-aid on it.


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

Stuart said:


> ... i know he has built a few hundred technical skiffs.


any idea how long it takes to personally build a few hundred skiffs? how old is this guy?


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## Stuart (May 21, 2004)

Ish said:


> any idea how long it takes to personally build a few hundred skiffs? how old is this guy?


Good grief. I was simply pointing out the guy that wrote the article and the poster are the same person. It doesn't matter if you know him or not, but it doesn't mean you should pick apart everything he said. He is partners in East Cape Canoes. So yes, he has been directly involved in the building of 100s of skiffs. Does that help? So if these tips have worked for him from time to time, they won't work for anyone else?

This is why so many people get turned off by fly fisherman. The constant critiquing of everything involved with it, when most people just want to get out there and have some fun.


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

sorry, didn't know...not a boat company groupy.

where did I say his tips wouldn't help someone? as you might recall i prefaced my comments with "here's a couple of things to think about:"
i admitted overlining works. i simply added another point of view in the hopes that it would get some people thinking about their long term goals.

if my comments/insight turn(s) you off to flyfishing, buh-bye. we won't miss you - one less person on the flats. i offered another point of view that's meant to help people in the long run, to give them something to think about.....take the short-cuts for short-term gain, or develop yourself for a longer term end goal.

if you like the short-cuts, great, but it doesn't mean others want to go that route.

ever notice that those that reach perfection in a game/sport/past-time are the ones who are constantly critiquing or trying to find better ways to do things? well, i'm one of those striving for perfection and i hope that what i've learned helps others with the same goal. i'd have given the left one to have someone offering valuable insight when i was first learning.

if you guys don't want alternate opinions, just say the word and i'll ****. this place is awfully dead and i just try to liven it up...give people a reason to come back, see (what i think are) cool pictures, and hopefully want to contribute themselves.

do you honestly want it to be like other forums where every comment directed at someone is just an ego stroke and nobody says what they're really thinking or what really needs to be said? where perhaps bad advice is put out there and even though someone realizes it's bad they keep their mouth shut, don't offer their opinion, and simply stroke the guy? how does that help anyone?

if i put something up here that someone feels is incorrect or has a better way of doing it, then i want to hear about it. i may not agree, but i want to hear it.

what would Dr. Savage say about all this? i'm wrong, i should just ego stroke?

***by the way, ECC has sold *100s* of skiffs in the few years they've been around?

100s implies he's sold ~10-12 a month for the last few years. If so, good for them, but i'd be interested to here the actual number Fenn sells each year - they're neat little boats.


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## TailStalker (May 11, 2006)

WOW...

Didn't mean to cause a stir. Thank you Sublime for understanding my tips and tricks...
For those of you that need to know on casting look no further if you ask Lefty,Stu,Flip, and lastly Chico to watch your cast as they will "all" tell you something different and what one said was good, the other will tell you it's wrong. 
So, with that outta the way let me also say there's two different types of fly-anglers...
Those that are casters, and those that catch fish! I've been fly-fishing for a VERY long time and as a former fly-fishing rep and guide I can tell you the cast that gets to the fish is the one that's more important.

I've done the whole FFF certif. thing etc. and what works for me may not work for another. But, my time on the water should be shared with anyone asking for advice. Hence my tips n tricks.

However, to each his own...

I'll continue to promote bad habits ( being funny ) and in return I see the reward as they become a fly-angler and catch fish on fly...
Kevin
Thank you for the kind words btw on the skiffs as we let people know we're anglers first then boat builders second. :O)


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## TailStalker (May 11, 2006)

Remember we are talking about "sitting" in a canoe or kayak too gang while fly-fishing. If any of you are in doubt please come to Florida and I'll grab the yaks and show you how teasing fish is done and how easy it is as well...

Also years ago fly-line was behind the advances of the rods so a ten weight line felt darn good on a RPLXI or a GLX...

P.S. That story was written back in 99-2000 when I was guiding so it may seem a little dated. However, I still practice those tech. today. I also use to chum w/live-bait ( O2 mini live-well ) in the groves, then toss in a fly to also get that client a fish if the sight fishing skills were'nt in their favor. LOL


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

so how many skiffs you cranking out each month?


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## Salty Dog (Jan 29, 2005)

Ish said:


> so how many skiffs you cranking out each month?


Go check out the website and look thru all the photos in the galleries for each model of skiff. It won't be long and you'll see that they are cranking out some skiffs. Lots of different skiffs in there and most built in the last 2.5 years.


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## Ish (Oct 30, 2008)

Salty Dog said:


> Go check out the website and look thru all the photos in the galleries for each model of skiff. It won't be long and you'll see that they are cranking out some skiffs. Lots of different skiffs in there and most built in the last 2.5 years.


been there/seen it, but it doesn't answer my question.


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## Stuart (May 21, 2004)

Ish said:


> been there/seen it, but it doesn't answer my question.


Probably no skiff maker is going to tell you that information.


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## TailStalker (May 11, 2006)

Last year just a tad over a hundred...
We have been in bidness for 5yrs now and have no plans of slowing down anytime soon.

Enough of the skiffs, let's get back to casting outta kayak! :O)

~ Kevin


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## fangard (Apr 18, 2008)

www.texaskayakfisherman.com should have some resources that are helpful. I believe there is a whole section devoted to fly fishing.

Best of Luck.

Take care,


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## TailStalker (May 11, 2006)

Good website and good people over there too! I've meet a bunch of those guys back when the Extreme Edge yak events were being held....


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