# fickle 243 load



## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

loa (2.63" 1.149631) (2.64" 0.698879 ) ( 2.65" 0.894336 ) (2.66" 1.169361 ) (2.67" 1.623038)

This is the latest 243 load I tested. It is 38 gr of I4064 under a 95 nosler btp. I used Winchester brass and Rem 9.5 primers. I am using an Academy special Remington 700 adl that's been bedded and floated on a wooden stock (because plastic sucks). Second col is group size (diameter) in inches. Yes this load is pushing the line, but I am not getting any pressure signs and velocities are not exceeding published data for max load.

Hard to believe that 10/1000's of an inch could make so much difference. I will load this one at 2.645 and test it again. Anyone else experienced such a sensitivity to loa? This goofy rifle is way more sensitive to length than charge weight.

FYI... qc on Win brass appears to be low. 1 in 25 will not fit into the shell holder very well..... but I have lots of win brass and very little Remington left.

** looks like my columns got destroyed. first number is loa, second is groupsize in inches.


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

I noticed this when loading Hornady AMAX bullets. They like a little less jump compared to my Sierra Match loads. Every rifle is a little different and the same is true of the bullets. My Sierra loads jump about .020-.040" to the lands (varies by weight). My AMAX loads are about .005-.010" jump for best accuracy.


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

I don't have a clue as to what my jump is. Richard Lee says the space under the bullet is way more important the the jump. He cited Weatherby rifles that have a long cone and love factory ammo. So far, I can't prove him wrong. 

Do you experience a tight sweet spot more with faster powders like I4064 than slow, like Reloader 22 or H1000?


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## Screeminreel (Jun 2, 2004)

Bobby Miller said:


> I don't have a clue as to what my jump is. Richard Lee says the space under the bullet is way more important the the jump. He cited Weatherby rifles that have a long cone and love factory ammo. So far, I can't prove him wrong.
> 
> Do you experience a tight sweet spot more with faster powders like I4064 than slow, like Reloader 22 or H1000?


I was going to mention this exact thing. I have a Win Mod 70 which acted exactly like what your describing. I tried several powders and bullet brands then finally on a whim went with H4350 and haven't looked back. For close to 20 years that same load using 42grs under the Nosler 95gr BT, Part, or Barnes 90gr X has shot well under 3/4" at 100yds through temps ranging from 32 to 100 degrees with no side effects. The nice thing is I do not have to change anything when loading one bullet to the other, same charge under all bullets, and I do not have to change the seater for the different profiles. This was exactly what I was hoping for when I was working with this particular rifle. Something I could simply grab the box of shells that would be most appropriate for the hunt. I use the BT for varmints as they are a little more than I want for deer, and not quite enough for hogs. The PT and X will work on all but I reserved the X for strictly BIG hogs.

This past spring I tried out some of the new Hybrid in a Sako I got second hand, and was extremely impressed with not only the SD and ES but also with it hitting the velocities almost on cue with what the data predicted. With other things taking precedence through the summer, I haven't gotten a chance to really wring it out, but from the initial work ups in varied temps everything looks like it is going to be as good or better than H4350 from this rifle.

If you have access to some H4350 I highly suggest it as it is a tad slower than the IMR version and MUCH more consistent with that weight bullet. It is also one of the Extreme powders and varies very little with temp changes. With the 95gr stuff I feel you wold be better off sticking with anything around H4831 or faster, as with the slower powders (IMO) your going to have lower velocities and run out of case before you get anywhere close to where you want to be.


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

I tried 4350 and H414. My gun absolutely hated both of them. Fickle.

I have a Browning 30-06. It it totally forgiving. It will shoot 1" groups with any powder/bullet. It will get down to 1/2" with R19 and a 180 grain.


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

R22 settled her down across a wide range of LOA's.

Lyman book was right on.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

10/1000's can certainly make a difference. I have had it happen many times. Especially with Barnes XXX. They seem particularly sensitive to seating depth and oal. Actually a comparator length is a more accurate measurement than OAL, because of the sometimes slight differences in OAL of the bullet. Comparator measures from the base of the cartridge to the ogive-- where the bullet first contacts the lands.

Let's see how many combinations can I get out of these variables: type of powder, weight of powder, type of bullet, weight of bullet, type of primer, type of brass, brass trimmed to minimum length and brass left at maximum, seating depth, neck tension, weighed brass or non weighed brass, etc. I think there are enough possible combinations to keep us all busy the rest of our lives in the search of that "Holy Grail" load.

But man what a great feeling when you hit it. Sometimes it happens early in the development of a load (usually by blind luck), and often times it happens way down the road. Sometimes some of us don't reach that great load and sell the gun -- must be the gun's fault right?? And then the guy that buys it from you immediately finds that magical load, which was there all the time, but we just didn't find it.

*DANG!!!!!!!!!!!*

I think I finally found that "Holy Grail" load for my Colt HBAR weekend before last. 68 gr Hornady match. .306" for 5 shots. What a great feeling.

THE JAMMER


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jammer

Come on now, .306 thats fantastic. Can you do it again ??

Charlie


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

OK Charlie, here you go.

The tight one on the left at 9:00 is .53" outside to outside. Minus .224 = .306". I know I couldn't believe it. Almost hesitated taking the fifth shot for fear for screwing it up, but it went right in there.

5 shots w/ 68 gr Hornady Match; 25 gr VV 140; RPSS new brass; fed 205M primer; comp length 2.825; velocity avg 2676 fps

The other three aren't too bad either. From 12:00 clockwise:

A. .613" 5 shots 52 gr Horn amax; 24.0 VV 135; WW used brass; rem 6
1/2 primers; comp length 2.845; velocity avg 2890 fps

B. .673" 5 shots (yes there are 5 there); nosler 55 gr bt; 23.0 VV 135;
Fed 205 primer; WW new brass; comp length 2.825; velocity 2701 fps

C. 1.156" 5 shots; nosler 55 gr bt; 25.0 gr VV 135; fed 205 primers; ww 
new brass; comp length 2.825; velocity 3037 fps

Can I do it again??? I just loaded up 30 more, and will be trying this weekend. I'll let you know.

"Sometimes the magic works my son, and sometimes it doesn't." Or so said the great chief in "Little Big Man."

THE JAMMER



CHARLIE said:


> Jammer
> 
> Come on now, .306 thats fantastic. Can you do it again ??
> 
> Charlie


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jam

Now that is not bad at all. Glad you finally got one to work like you like it. Looks darn good to me. Ya know I had to give you a hard time..I loaded me some "clip" ammo yesterday I was getting bored. 25.5 Benchmark and 55Gr FMJ Winchester BT for my Mini 14. Oh by the way if you get zeroed it will tighten up a little. 

Charlie


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

Jammer, it appears you are measuring your groups "outside to outside " of the two holes farthurest appart. Your cheating yourself. In competion, they measure "center to center".


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

If you had read my write up you would have seen that I subtracted .224 (the diameter of the bullet) from the outside to outside measurement.

When you shoot a "one holer" like that it's impossible to measure outside to inside or inside to outside, or center to center. The only way you can get an accurate measurement is to measure outside to outside of the entire hole, and then subtract the diameter of the bullet.

You're correct in that the center to center distance is the size of the group, but who can accurately put a caliper down in the "exact center" of a bullet hole. Thererfore if you measure from outside of one hole to the inside of the farthest hole rom the first one, you will get a much more accurate measurement than if you try to find the exact center of those two holes.

THE JAMMER


Timemachine said:


> Jammer, it appears you are measuring your groups "outside to outside " of the two holes farthurest appart. Your cheating yourself. In competion, they measure "center to center".


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Obviously none of those is zeroed, but why would zeroing it make it tighter??

Each gun I own I have what I call a "base load." That's the one that I zero dead on at 100 yards. And in the above targets, I first shot that base load and it was dead center. I then develop a chart for that load with so many clicks up for the various yardages. I then shoot that load at zero, and then, the same day I shoot the other major bullets that I will shoot with that gun, and develop a chart that shows me how many clicks left or right, and how many clicks up or down I need to adjust my scope to bring that particular load into zero.

So I can sit there at the range and shoot my base load dead center, then switch to another bullet and make the appropriate adjustments from my chart to my scope, like 3 clicks up and 6 clicks right. Then shoot that other bullet directly into zero as well. I will then have a chart for that load regarding "up clicks" for the various yardages. In developing the "up click" chart I start with the book figures, and then when I'm able to actually shoot that load at longer ranges, I make adjustments to that chart based upon the actual field data.

For my AR's I want 4 different primary loads: a small 52-55 varmint load like bt's or amax's; a dead nuts accurate bullet like 68 horn match or smk's; a good hunting bullet like XXX's; and an fmj 55 or 62. Those 4 bullet types will cover every scenario I could possibly need for an AR. At least that's my opinion.

Also Charlie, as always, I appreciate the "hard time." I listen long and hard to anything you have to say. That's the great thing about this forum.

THE JAMMER



CHARLIE said:


> Jam
> 
> Now that is not bad at all. Glad you finally got one to work like you like it. Looks darn good to me. Ya know I had to give you a hard time..I loaded me some "clip" ammo yesterday I was getting bored. 25.5 Benchmark and 55Gr FMJ Winchester BT for my Mini 14. Oh by the way if you get zeroed it will tighten up a little.
> 
> Charlie


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jammer

Regarding the "zero" issue. Let me see if I can splain it.. Now I understand your crosshairs are supposed to always be in the same place regarding horizontal and vertical but if by some chance they are canted just a little bit then if the impact area is say 2 or 3 inches to the left then the bullet imact area would change slightly. The error lessens if your impact area is zero. I think, anyway thats my story and Im sticking to it..

By the way what optics ??

Charlie


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Charlie, I see what you're saying regarding the canted scope. Tha't's why I use a level to take that variable away. On that gun I'm using a Leupold 4.5x14 with mil dot reticle. Great scope.

THE JAMMER


CHARLIE said:


> Jammer
> 
> Regarding the "zero" issue. Let me see if I can splain it.. Now I understand your crosshairs are supposed to always be in the same place regarding horizontal and vertical but if by some chance they are canted just a little bit then if the impact area is say 2 or 3 inches to the left then the bullet imact area would change slightly. The error lessens if your impact area is zero. I think, anyway thats my story and Im sticking to it..
> 
> ...


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jammer

I dont mean when you are installing the scope. I am referring while shooting. I have noticed if I dont pay attention sometimes I mite "cant" my scope just slightly and not have it level. Never shot or used the mil dot reticle. That mite stop all that. Good shootin my friend. 
Yes sir that 4.4 X 14 is a great scope. I just have the vari X 3X9's on my guns. 

Charlie


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Charlie,

I meant I* shoot with a level on my scope* when I actually shoot so as to remove that "cant" variable.

I also use the level level level system when mounting my scopes.

Happy shooting. I'll be at Carter's Treaschwig tomorrow.

THE JAMMER


CHARLIE said:


> Jammer
> 
> I dont mean when you are installing the scope. I am referring while shooting. I have noticed if I dont pay attention sometimes I mite "cant" my scope just slightly and not have it level. Never shot or used the mil dot reticle. That mite stop all that. Good shootin my friend.
> Yes sir that 4.4 X 14 is a great scope. I just have the vari X 3X9's on my guns.
> ...


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

I skimmed over it too fast and missed that part. Sorry. 

In benchrest, the caliper has 2 inscribed circle (same dia. as bullet being shot) on an acrylic plate. The targets are measured with that.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

That's pretty awesome. Never shot bench rest before and never saw one of those. Is that a caliper that can be bought easily and if so from where and what's it called?? I'd love to have one.

THE JAMMER


Timemachine said:


> I skimmed over it too fast and missed that part. Sorry.
> 
> In benchrest, the caliper has 2 inscribed circle (same dia. as bullet being shot) on an acrylic plate. The targets are measured with that.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Back in the dark ages when I used to shoot competetion pistols they had a plastic template with little circles or rings of the caliber you were shooting. They used that to try and determine if you accidentally shot two or three in the same hole. I used to be able to do that (occasionally) at 25 and 50 yards.

Charlie


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