# Scope Height Above Bore



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Ok, here we go. I'm in the mood for a good discussion. This should stir the pot, and get us thinking.

Does the height you mount your scope above your bore affect how flat your rifle shoots???

This ought to get it going!!

THE JAMMER


----------



## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

In my opinion it has nothing to do with the ballistics or the bullets flight path. The scope height simply will change how much elevation to dial into the scope for the distance you are shooting. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I see it.


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Scope height is irrelevant. The flatness of the trajectory of a projectile is determined by a couple factors, including BC, velocity, and launch angle. If those are held constant, a gun without a scope shots with the same trajectory as a gun with the scope mounted 100 feet above the bore. Shots with the same trajectory as a gun with a scope mounted crosswise or mounted under the barrel. Same as a gun with ten scopes, mounted in series. 

Think you need to re-phrase the question.


----------



## buckbuddy (Sep 1, 2008)

I'm glad that this has been brought up. I'm fixing to mount a 56mm scope on a Ruger M77-7mag. I purchased a set of High mounts, but the bell of the scope was touching the barrel. I have ordered a set of "Super High" mounts. And, I was wondering the same thing. Would it effect the bullet placement? I'm hoping it won't. Thanks! Guys


----------



## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

LOL...it is all a matter of perception!:wink:


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Ok. great start on this one. Here is my opinion. 

Yes the trajectory of the bullet is the same whether the scope is mounted high or mounted low- however that is true ONLY when that trajectory is measured relative to the direction the bore is pointing. If the bore, for instance is pointing up at a 30 degree angle the trajectory of the bullet relative to the bore direction will be the same as if the bore were parallel to the ground. However the trajectory of that bullet relative to the horizon will obviously be significantly different/ higher.

For instance if you mounted a scope directly to the side of the bore, it would be pointing parallel relative to the target in the scope, and there would be zero angle between the two lines. However, to over emphaxize, let's now move that scope say a foot above the bore. There will then be a significant angle between the scope line of sight and the bore line of sight if they are both pointed at the same target at the same time. With the scope dead on the target, the bore will be pointing up, relative to the scope line of sight. It has to for them to come together at 100 yards say. In other words that bullet, when it hits the 100 yard target is moving upwards at a greater rate, than it would be had it been fired with the scope parallel to the bore. 

Here are some real numbers for a 75 degree day, 500 ft of altitude; .450 bc bullet at 2600 fps mv; 4 clicks per inch scope

scope mounted 2.5# above bore height

100 yards dead on; 200 yards 7 clicks up; 300 yards 19 clicks up

scope mounted 1.5" above bore height

100 yards dead on; 200 yards 9 clicks up; 300 yards 21 clicks up

It's not much but that's 1" at 200 yards and 1.5" at 300 yds. a 28% difference.

I don't want to actually say it shoots flatter the higher you mount your scope, because as has been said the trajectory, relative to the bore direction, is the same. However relative to the horizon, it is not. Logically thinking I think the bullet from the scope mounted higher will be higher above the ground at 150 yards than the one from the lower mounted scope.

Very interesting, and I'm certainly open to other opinions/observations.

THE JAMMER


----------



## Etexhunter (May 11, 2008)

Good to see this post. I do have my scope mounted higher due to shoulder and neck issues. I have the "see thru" rings, which raises the scope up 1" I think, might be higher. My dad had this rifle customized for me as I know not what's needed to build one.
So far it has been right on the money on paper and animals. Trying to figure out how many clicks it would be for it to shoot 1 1/2" above bulls eye at 100 yards. lol


----------



## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

THE JAMMER said:


> Does the height you mount your scope above your bore affect how flat your rifle shoots???


JMO but no it does not. It will change the reference point for the scope to follow the bullets trajectory but it has no impact on the trajectory.


----------



## davidb (May 10, 2006)

Could be demonstrated easily with a line of sight and trajectory drawing** Too bad I'm not smart enough to do that, or even import one**


----------



## CavassoCruisin (Jun 21, 2006)

Etexhunter said:


> Good to see this post. I do have my scope mounted higher due to shoulder and neck issues. I have the "see thru" rings, which raises the scope up 1" I think, might be higher. My dad had this rifle customized for me as I know not what's needed to build one.
> So far it has been right on the money on paper and animals. Trying to figure out how many clicks it would be for it to shoot 1 1/2" above bulls eye at 100 yards. lol


If it's dead on now, figure 1 1/2" worth of clicks - say six if it's quarter-inch clicks or three if it's half-inch, etc.


----------



## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

I'm not smart enough to answer this.......but I use high and low rings..


----------



## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

THE JAMMER said:


> Does the height you mount your scope above your bore affect how flat your rifle shoots???
> 
> THE JAMMER


yes it does.
Take an AR that has a carry handle and mount a scope on it. sight it in for 50 yds and try and shoot 10 yds, it will be hitting about 2-3 inches low.
Try 100 yds and youll be hitting high. 
5" above bore puts way to much arc on the bullet path


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Actually the arc of the bullet is always the same. It's the angle relative to the horizon that that bullet starts out at that affects where it hits on paper at the various ranges.

In your example think how much greater the angle between the scope and the bore is on your AR if they came together at 100 yards compared to a bolt gun with a scope mounted on the lowest rings possible. Also on your gun I'll bet when that bullet starts down again after 100 yards, it's center point of impact is going to be way out there, possible 300 yards plus.

THE JAMMER


zrexpilot said:


> yes it does.
> Take an AR that has a carry handle and mount a scope on it. sight it in for 50 yds and try and shoot 10 yds, it will be hitting about 2-3 inches low.
> Try 100 yds and youll be hitting high.
> 5" above bore puts way to much arc on the bullet path


----------



## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

Guys.....a bullet starts to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel....
One of the more pervasive myths associated with bullet trajectory is that "bullets always rise right after they leave the barrel." In general, bullets do rise after leaving the barrel, and they immediately begin to drop. This is not a contradiction, and the explanation is not difficult to understand.
Bullets are affected by gravity whether in flight or not, and, when they leave the barrel, they no longer have any physical support, such as the brass, the box, your pocket, the magazine, the chamber, or the barrel, so they begin to fall......... In addition, they are traveling through air, so air resistance progressively slows their flight. On most occasions the barrel is slanted upward slightly to compensate for this immediate drop; thus, for all but extreme shots, since the barrel is aimed slightly upward, the bullet does, indeed, rise slightly after it leaves the barrel, but the bullet never rises above the axis of the barrel. (Just like a football generally rises above the player when they throw a pass. The longer the pass, the greater the starting angle, and the higher the "rise" before the ball begins to fall.)
In scientific terms, "thrown" objects, whether by hand, explosion, springs, compressed air, or other forces, are called "projectiles," their path in space is called their "trajectory," and the study of their trajectories is called "ballistics." ..........Those who fail to understand the elementary physics of ballistics often misinterpret the configuration of barrel and the line of sight and assume that something "special" happens to the bullet during its flight. Many things happen, but nothing "special;" bullets fly just like any other projectile and are subject to the same laws of physics.
Jammer, when you put a scope on a rifle...as you stated above "parallel" with one another......once you shoot the gun the bullet will begin to fall as soon as it leaves the barrel....So we compensate this by angling the scope downward in its installation...which in turn raises the barrel slightly
I found a picture on the net which discribes what I am saying....its below.

The height of you scope matters not when it comes to your bullet.....your scope gives you your *line of sight...*the angle of your barrel is called the* line of departure*......*Bullet Path* is the arc or trajectory of the bullet relative to Line of site...*Drop* is the actual drop of the bullet relative to Line of departure.....
when you shoot a gun with a scope...you are looking at say 100 yds to a target....you have a scope setting 1.5" high above the barrel....your bullet will actually cross the line of site twice.....on say a .270...it will cross about 40 yds downfield and rise to about 1.5 inches above the line of sight(*mid-range trajectory*) and then converge at the target at 100 yds....If you mounted the scope 5" high above the barrel It will not cross the line of sight but the angle of the two different mounts will change only slightly to compensate for the rise.....or it will not hit the target......If you raise the scope even higher....the results will be the same in order to hit what you are aiming at.....

TS


----------



## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

troutslayer said:


> The height of you scope matters not when it comes to your bullet.....TS


yes it does, the higher your scope the more your going to have plus and minus MOA in a given distance.
will use your instance, a .270 sighted for a 100 will cross paths at 40 yds first, with a 1" scope height your gun will be about 1" low at 10 yds
with a 5" scope height your gun will be 5" low at 10 yds.
I guarantee it.


----------



## nhampton (Aug 8, 2007)

The scope height above the barrel only changes the point that the bullet path and the line of sight of the scope intersect. The high mounted scope will appear to shoot flatter because a scope mounted high will require the angle between the line of sight on the crosshairs and the rifle bore to be greater. Thus, past the 0 point at 100 yds, the high mounted scope bullet trajectory will still be going up (not climbing, the bullet is always falling from the time it leaves the barrel) at a greater rate than the low mounted scope because it had to go up faster than the low mounted scope to get to the zero point. If you consider this to be shooting flatter, just sight your gun in 1 to 2 inches high at 100 yds, it's the same effect.


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Troutslayer,

As you say the barrel is slanted upward, relative to the scope bore, other wise, because of the dropping trajectory, the bullet would never "climb up" to hit that 100 yards target that the scope is looking at. There has to be some qualifcation here. Once the bullet leaves the barrel it starts dropping only relative to the axis of the barrel. It doesn't necessarily start dropping relative to the ground. If the gun is pointed high enough, obviously the bullet will be climbing for a period of time, relative to the ground. It will however start dropping immediately "relative to the bore."

Troutslayer take the third picture in your example and mentally lower the bore even more below the scope- increases the height above bore. So if you shift the line of departure and the trajectory downward and keep the angle of the trajectory the same, the trajectory will not cross the same spot at 100 yards. It will cross it lower. In order to hit the same spot above the 100 yard target with the trajectory, the line of departure will have to be raised, which will also raise the whole trajectory resulting in the bullet recrossing the line of sight farther down range than the 200 yards it shows. So with the line of sight, through the scope lined up at 100 yards on the target, the path of the bullet WILL be higher, relative to the horizon, if the scope is mounted higher.

Reread zrexpilots post just above, and it makes sense. With the scope mounted 5" high, for the bullet to hit at 100 yards, the angle of the bbl will be higher, thus pushing that trajectory upwards relative to the horizon.

I knew this subject would get some great responses , and force some DEEP thinking.

Any of you who have a computer program that lists height above bore as one of your inputs, can easily see that this is all true. Plug in a bullet's bc, velocity, altitude, temperature, range the gun is zeroed at, zero wind direction and speed and zero angle up or down, and height above bore, and see what it tells you. Then do nothing but change the height above bore. You WILL get a different reading.

THE JAMMER


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Man this is out of hand. Thoutslayer is correct. I know everyone of yall know that if the barrel is parallel to the ground and a bullet is fired and one is dropped from the same height they will both hit the ground at the same time. The fired bullet will be somewhere further out thats all. Whoeee Jammer you got em going with that one. 

Thats as bad as asking if you are flying in a spacecraft flying faster than the muzzle velocity of a gun and it is fired forward will the bullet ever leave the gun. Or if you are traveling faster than the speed of light and you shine a flashlight in the direction you are flying will the light ever come out of the flashlight.

Charlie


----------



## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

zrexpilot said:


> yes it does, the higher your scope the more your going to have plus and minus MOA in a given distance.
> will use your instance, a .270 sighted for a 100 will cross paths at 40 yds first, with a 1" scope height your gun will be about 1" low at 10 yds
> with a 5" scope height your gun will be 5" low at 10 yds.
> I guarantee it.


You are correct....



THE JAMMER said:


> Troutslayer,
> 
> As you say the barrel is slanted upward, relative to the scope bore, other wise, because of the dropping trajectory, the bullet would never "climb up" to hit that 100 yards target that the scope is looking at. There has to be some qualifcation here. Once the bullet leaves the barrel it starts dropping only relative to the axis of the barrel. It doesn't necessarily start dropping relative to the ground. If the gun is pointed high enough, obviously the bullet will be climbing for a period of time, relative to the ground. It will however start dropping immediately "relative to the bore."
> 
> ...


Anytime you change something on your rifle ...you have to compensate for that.......*but it does not change the trajectory of the bullet period!* To get it to hit what you want at 100,200 or 300 you have to sight it in....It does not matter if you put the scope on the bottom of the gun......the trajectory never changes........Now with that said....you can obvisously change the trajectory with better ballistic coeffecient bullets or hotter loads........but the scope placement does not effect the trajectory of the bullet.........YOU HAVE TO CHANGE THE LINE OF SITE

TS


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Charlie,

I was waiting for you to weigh in here. Let me get this straight. You said Troutslayer is correct. I may be misinterpreting his post, but what I think he is saying is: if a gun is sighted in so that it hits the bulls eye at 100 yards say 3" high, it will also hit a target at a particular place relative to the bulls eye on a 200 yard target with the scope mounted 1.5" above the bore. That if you increase the height above bore to 3.5 inches, and sight the gun in so that it still hits 3" high at 100 yards, that it will hit the exact same spot on the 200 yard target as it did with the scope mounted lower????

I know you're not saying that, are you??

Every computer program in the world will dispell the above. It just will not happen. Otherwise why would there be an input on every program for height above bore. If it didn't make any difference, why would they ask you to put it in???

Come on military snipers. Where are you????

THE JAMMER



CHARLIE said:


> Man this is out of hand. Thoutslayer is correct. I know everyone of yall know that if the barrel is parallel to the ground and a bullet is fired and one is dropped from the same height they will both hit the ground at the same time. The fired bullet will be somewhere further out thats all. Whoeee Jammer you got em going with that one.
> 
> Thats as bad as asking if you are flying in a spacecraft flying faster than the muzzle velocity of a gun and it is fired forward will the bullet ever leave the gun. Or if you are traveling faster than the speed of light and you shine a flashlight in the direction you are flying will the light ever come out of the flashlight.
> 
> Charlie


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jammer

No matter how high the scope it wil not change how flat your rifle shoots period. Thats a function of speed and weight (simplifying it). Now it will change the point of impact at various distances down range but not much...

Charlie


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Charlie,

If your definition of flat is the trajectory of the bullet, I will agree. But if that trajectory is moved up or down relative to the horizon, won't that change where that bullet hits the target at various ranges??? I think that's what you meant in your last sentence that it will change the point of impact at various distances down range, and isn't that what a shooter is actually practically interested in?

Don't we want to know with my gun sighted in 3" high at 100, where is it going to hit at 200, 300, etc.??? All I'm saying is, and I think you agree, that those impact points will change when you change the height above bore, which is essentially changing things. 


Regarding how much it will affect it: "Right out of the computer:

.223 62 grain barnes XXX with a BC of .287; muzzle veloctiy 3000 fps; 500 ft altitude; 75 degrees temp; zero wind and angle

Height above bore 1.5" - dead on at 100 yards; 12.75" low at 300 yards
Height above bore 3.5" - dead on at 100 yards; 9.0" low at 300 yards

almost 4" difference at 300 yards 1.25 MOA-- not a lot, but a consideration.

But the original question was essentially: will height above bore change how "flat" your rifle shoots, and the answer to that is no- the trajectory relative to the bore directrion will always be the same (with one exception-- when you shoot straight up, in which case there is no trajectory- just straight up and then straight down). However to the question: will my impact pointsat various ranges of a particular load be affected by the height above the bore that my scope is, and the answer to that question is YES.

THE JAMMER


----------



## Etexhunter (May 11, 2008)

Wouldn't it be a combo of weight and friction as to when the bullet actually starts to drop ??


----------



## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

flat shooting = trajectory
and trajectory is affected by scope height, no two ways about it.


----------



## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

No more Koolaid for you guys......


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Hey Jam

Now if your original question was will it change the point of impact down range. Crtainly, not too much. If it will change how flat your rifle shoots heck no, you know that. I think you mite need to re do your question. 

Charlie


----------



## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

THE JAMMER said:


> Ok, here we go. I'm in the mood for a good discussion. This should stir the pot, and get us thinking.
> 
> *Does the height you mount your scope above your bore affect how flat your rifle shoots???*
> 
> ...


It went way left ...but to answer your question....NO


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but I guess it depends upon what your definition of "flat shooting" rifle is. Isn't the definition of a flat shooting load where it hits the target at various ranges??? Let's try it this way. Which of the following loads is the "flatter shooting load?"

A. Dead on at 200, 7.5" low at 300; 23" low at 400
vs.
B. Dead on at 200, 6.75" low at 300; 21" low at 400

I think we would all say that load *B is the* *flatter shooting load*. Agree??

Guess what? The two loads are identical: same bc .287, same mv 3000 fps, same everything,* EXCEPT height above bore*. The "flatter shooting" load is the one with the scope 3.5" above bore, not the one that was 1.5" above bore.

Again trajectory relative to the direction of the bore is not affected by bore height; however, tracjectory relative to the horizon is affected by bore height.

THE "I'M DONE WITH THIS ONE" JAMMER


----------



## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

THE JAMMER said:


> Don't want to beat a dead horse, but I guess it depends upon what your definition of "flat shooting" rifle is. Isn't the definition of a flat shooting load where it hits the target at various ranges??? Let's try it this way. Which of the following loads is the "flatter shooting load?"
> 
> A. Dead on at 200, 7.5" low at 300; 23" low at 400
> vs.
> ...


but tell me what those loads are at 150 100 50 and 10 yds

and the lower height will be flatter shooting, wanna bet.
do the same with something not so fast.
do a .308 at 2700 fps
or do it with something like a .22 lr with a 50 or 75 yd zero.
my .22 has about a 5" scope height sighted for 50 yds and I cant hit chit at 10 yds.


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Zrex,

Take my example above at 100 yards. The 1.5" above bore will be1.75" high at 100 yards, and the 3.5" above bore will only be .75" high at 100 yards. It will be flatter everywhere in between and farther out period. 

Now as you suggested I have done the numbers with say a .450 bc 165 .308 at 2600 fps, and the differential is not nearly as large. It's actually pretty small, and I'm sure that's a function of the higher BC. .450 vs. .287

Regarding your .22 at 10 yards, obviously the higher the scope is above the bore, the more "off" your hit would be at close range. If your scope is 5" above bore, I'll bet if you shoot something one foot off your barrel, the bullet will hit 5" low.

THE JAMMER


----------



## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

Has the airplane lifted off the conveyor belt yet? :biggrin::cheers:


----------



## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

The higher the scope is mounted, the more your shooting will be affected by the cant. This is what you need to be worried about rather than the trajectory. For long range shooting, a small amount of cant from left to right will make the bullet hit off of center, and the higher the scope is mounted above the bore exaggerates the situation.

It really makes little difference past 100 yards as far as trajectory


----------



## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

Please big fish....dont add any thing more to this thread........you start talking about cant and we will be here for another week or two..........


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Roger that Troutslayer. I'm still laughing.

It was a good thread though. Got a lot of people thinking.

THE JAMMER



troutslayer said:


> Please big fish....dont add any thing more to this thread........you start talking about cant and we will be here for another week or two..........


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I am still wondering if that light would ever come out of the flashlight if you are traveling faster than the speed of light.


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

That's a classic Stephen Wright (comedian) joke. His other great one was, "Did you ever wonder what you would add to powdered water?"

THE JAMMER



CHARLIE said:


> I am still wondering if that light would ever come out of the flashlight if you are traveling faster than the speed of light.


----------



## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

Jammer....you probably hit on a few good ideas.......that maybe someone on this board could actually use ....for instance what bigfish said about cant...most people probably dont know what that is and might be suprised that their shot could be effected by it......
What about scope parallax.....could be the difference in a great buck at camp and a story about the one that got away
A detailed information thread about sighting in a rifle might be very informative....
I was lucky enough to brought up by someone who was a benchrest shooter and took a lot of pride in holding 5 shot groups with hand loaded .220 swift in the range of .5"......I still have that gun and have never taken it to the range....maybe I will someday........

But I would be willing to bet that there is a world of knowledge that someone of your caliber could post in a thread that would be greatly beneficial to 2coolers even ones that wont admit it.......

So you have been givin the task of starting new threads about different subjects that we all can have healthy debates about..........

1. Cleaning your rifle
2. Scope parallax
3. cant
4. sighting a rifle in
5. mounting a scope
6. torquing screws on your rifle
7. glass bedding/pillar bedding
8. bore sighting
9. ballistics for dummies(no offense intended)
10. and last but not least.....howabout the kill zone on a white tail buck/doe


That ought to be enough for now......

TS


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Dont you dare jammer !!!!

The computer is not big enough to hold all the "stuff" that would come out of it.

Yall have a good day

Charlie


----------



## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

lol...............come on Charlie


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Troutslayer,

I now see why you said "I got scared" on your other post on parallax. I had not read this post here yet, and didn't know about it.

Wow, like Charlie said, I don't think the computers have enough memory to cover all of this, plus I will be the first to admit that I don't have anywhere near enough knowledge on all of these subjects to reflect intelligently on them.

HOwever....

I will definitely agree with the comments on cant. That's why on my two guns that I really try to squeeze max accuracy out of (Remington PSS, and M1A) I have levels mounted on the scope to eliminate the effect of cant problems, which can be signifi-CANT.

You totally covered parallax in your other post, so I would not even think about adding to the master's post.

Cleaning your rifle- yes you should clean it.

Bore sighting_ believe it or not what I do is put my rifle securely on bags at 100 yards, take the bolt out, and visually sight through the bore until my target is in the middle of the bore visually. I then adjust my scope so the crosshairs are on the center of the target, and I am "on paper" with the first shot every time. It obviously hits a bit low, because the bullet doesn't fly in an absolutely straight line from the bore. I don't like going to the 25 yard range, setting up, and getting on paper at 25, then moving everything over to the 100 yard range. Nor do I like spending extraneous money on those bore sighting tools. This very simple method gets me on paper right away every time. I have shown this to many shooters on the range at CArter's. I watch them shoot round after round, while looking at their barren targets. Got them on paper right away every time.

Sighting a rifle in- depends upon what you are sighting it in for. My tactical rifles I usually sight in dead on at 100 yards, and then adjust my scope controls to zero, and then learn my adjustments up or down for various ranges. I am thinking about moving that zero up to 200 yards, which will have just a smidge high at 100. My hunting rifles I generally sight in about 3" high at 100 yards, which puts most of them dead on at about 250-275 yards, and less than 3" low at 300 yards. This allows me to shoot dead on all the way to 300 yards without having to think about it in a hunting situation. I will know what my hold over is for a 400 yard shot in case that situation presents itself, and the conditions are perfect-- no or little wind, an undisturbed animal, etc. Since I am a heart/lung shooter, this gets me in the boiler room consistently.

I definitely use a Wheeler torque wrench (great tool) when mounting my rings and scopes, and use the recommended torque settings.

I don't know **** about bedding. I write checks for that one.

Mounting scopes- I've never used one of those "align the two dowels with the points on the ends" kits. I just MOUNT them, and have never had any problems. I'm sure that using one of those kits would eliminate some of the problems associated with just "winging it." It's just that's one of the "toys" I haven't bought yet. The most important thing here I think is torqueing the screws.

Ballistics for dummies- too long. Nother time. But basically I think if most guys would sight there guns in as I do for hunting guns, they really wouldn't have to worry a lot about ballistics- other than wind, which if anyone's ever read any of my posts, know how much of a stickler I am for knowing wind corrections for your particular load. This basic approach, for hunting, I think is sufficient. Accuracy shooting is a different story.

Kill zone on a whitetail buck- I will definitely stir the pot with this one, but I am a full on heart lung guy. In my opinion neck/head shooting is nothing but an ego stroke for the shooter. Why base your success on hitting a 3-4" target when you can base it on hitting a 10-12" target?? The excuse for making head/neck shots is that it doesn't destroy any meat. Come on guys, are we really so concerned about losing that little bit of shoulder meat (which usually goes to burger at the burcher anyway) that we would jeopordize the success of the shot. Let's see: an extra 3 pounds of burger, or a wounded deer running around with his jaw hanging down?? No brainer for me. There are definitely guns and marksmen who can make a head/neck shot. However, no matter how good the gun or the marksmen might be, if the target moves just as you touch the trigger, your are going to miss- hopefully the whole target, unfortunately often it's the hanging jaw that results- and we've all seen that. And this doesn't even cover the subject of crosswind. I've said this before, but if you can't, off the top of your head right now, say how much lateral hold off you need to make with a 10,20,30 mph 90degree crosswind at 100, 200, 300 yards, you have no business even thinking about making a head/neck shot. I'm the kind of hunter who cherishes his game. I've actually taught my son that the first thing we do after shooting an animal is to kneel down beside the animal and say a prayer thanking God for allowing us to take this animal. No, I'm not the guy you will see flying around in a helicopter randomly shooting hogs, and leaving them to agonizingly die in the field.

Well that covered a bunch of it. Certainly not in the detail that some would like, but at least you can't say I was scared. LOL

THE JAMMER


----------



## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

THE JAMMER said:


> Troutslayer,
> 
> I now see why you said "I got scared" on your other post on parallax. I had not read this post here yet, and didn't know about it.
> 
> ...


Good stuff guys. You know, for the average guy that shoots 100-250 yards, most of this is just stuff to talk about. When you start stretching your shots our to 400-500-1000 yards, then everything that you do wrong, (or your equipment may have flaws) is exagerated. Paralax, cant, humidity, wind, temperature, INCLINE, etc all can make what should be a dead on shot go off target.
If you are serious about shooting long range or for accuracy, I highly recommend the ballistic program from Exbal and Nightforce.


----------



## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

You know about the boiler room approach on shooting whitetail.....that is the only spot for me also.....and reasoning is the same as a lot of hunters that choose head or neck shots........If a well placed round hits in the area between the top and bottom of the deer just behind the shoulder....perferably closer to center thaer is very little meat wasted.....I dont like shoulder shots cause there is meat there....I dont like neck shots for the same reason.......The head is just out of the question unless.....well I cant think of any reason really

as for scope mounting to add to your post...I like to use the proper tools for the job...just grabbing a screwdriver out of your box does not constitute proper tools.......and when setting screws a tap with a small hammer and twist at the same time will set just about any screw.....also loctite is a must...

I am going to bring up cant in your rifle on another thread


----------



## jimk (May 28, 2004)

You guys are too wordy....the answer to the original question is "NO!"

...and Charlie...the speed of the flashlight beam relative to what?:headknock


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

jimk

Maybe you should have read some more of those words. I say, if you define how flat a rifle shoots by where it hits the target at various ranges, and where it hits especially at the farther ranges is higher, then the answer is an unqualified YES.

Remember it doesn't affect the trajectory, but it will affect where the same bullet/load intersects the target at various ranges. Which to me is the definition of shooting flat.

THE JAMMER


jimk said:


> You guys are too wordy....the answer to the original question is "NO!"
> 
> ...and Charlie...the speed of the flashlight beam relative to what?:headknock


----------



## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

But the rest of the shooting world would answer NO to the question you originally asked. Later amendments by you may have changed a few of those answers to yes but the original question is still NO. :biggrin:



THE JAMMER said:


> Does the height you mount your scope above your bore affect how flat your rifle shoots???


----------



## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Too tall,

Try re reading this one again, and answer a very simple question: which is the flatter shooting load? A or B?

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but I guess it depends upon what your definition of "flat shooting" rifle is. Isn't the definition of a flat shooting load where it hits the target at various ranges??? Let's try it this way. Which of the following loads is the "flatter shooting load?"

A. Dead on at 200, 7.5" low at 300; 23" low at 400
vs.
B. Dead on at 200, 6.75" low at 300; 21" low at 400

I think we would all say that load *B is the* *flatter shooting load*. Agree??

Guess what? The two loads are identical: same bc .287, same mv 3000 fps, same everything,* EXCEPT height above bore*. The "flatter shooting" load is the one with the scope 3.5" above bore, not the one that was 1.5" above bore.

Again trajectory relative to the direction of the bore is not affected by bore height; however, tracjectory relative to the horizon is affected by bore height.

THE "I'M DONE WITH THIS ONE" JAMMER


----------



## Too Tall (May 21, 2004)

THE JAMMER said:


> Does the height you mount your scope above your bore affect how flat your rifle shoots???


You read it. It was your original question. The answer is no. Your answers contradicted the question and several people said you asked it wrong for the answer you are supporting.


THE JAMMER said:


> Too tall,
> 
> Try re reading this one again, and answer a very simple question: which is the flatter shooting load? A or B?


I did read the original question. No need to re read it. You didn't ask about load A or B.


----------

