# Cedar bayou, whats the holdback on dredging?



## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

I have heard many here claim the problem with mesquite, san antonio, and aransas bays is the closing of the pass on cedar bayou. What is the reason for not opening it back up? Please enlighten us.


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## wading_fool (May 3, 2005)

Corp of Engineers won't issue permit and is requesting more money now for access from Gulf side for the dredging equipment to access CB/VS............basically the big money is still fighting behind the scenes


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

What big money? Who benefits from damaging our bays?


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## Hooked on Reds (Oct 2, 2007)

Im just guessing - but I cant believe the Land owner out on St Joes is supportive at all. I think that family has to be at the heart of why it always stalemates out. 

Nothing against them mind you - I don't blame them if they dont want a channel re-dredged across their cattle and oil production land that allows steady boaters thru. But the man is on the TPW board, you would think it would be a hot discussion at their table???

Opening that water-way would significantly help all fishing grounds between Port A and Port O in my book.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

If you are implying they are buying influence with campaign contributions, wouldn't it be cheaper to build a bridge over the cut, for his cattle and oil production, than to spend millions on lobying and campaign contributions.


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## FLATLANDER21 (Jan 1, 2009)

railbird said:


> If you are implying they are buying influence with campaign contributions, wouldn't it be cheaper to build a bridge over the cut, for his cattle and oil production, than to spend millions on lobying and campaign contributions.


 There not spending that much money more of friends and family members in the right places.


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## shanty (Aug 15, 2010)

pure speculation, those land owners are good people and wonderful stewards of the environment



FLATLANDER21 said:


> There not spending that much money more of friends and family members in the right places.


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## hooknbullet2 (Jan 17, 2006)

Hooked on Reds said:


> Im just guessing - but I cant believe the Land owner out on St Joes is supportive at all. I think that family has to be at the heart of why it always stalemates out.
> 
> Nothing against them mind you - I don't blame them if they dont want a channel re-dredged across their cattle and oil production land that allows steady boaters thru. But the man is on the TPW board, you would think it would be a hot discussion at their table???
> 
> Opening that water-way would significantly help all fishing grounds between Port A and Port O in my book.


Exactly what I keep hearing.


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## Im Headed South (Jun 28, 2006)

Even *if* it ever gets done it will be considered a fish pass as it was before it was closed off which means boats would not be able to pass though to the gulf. Don't ask me how they plan to enforce that but thats what I've been told. Which is fine with me if it means that Mesquite, Carlos, St. Charles, Aransas, Etc would get a much needed flushing. Hard to believe mother nature hasn't taken care of that for so long in that part of the coast but when it does it ain't going to be pretty considering the condition of a lot of the structures in the area.


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## Jim Martin (Jun 3, 2009)

There used to be a Game Warden Cabin there back in the late 70's and if you got caught past the "No boats past this point" sign, it was not a pleasant visit. BUT, it was typically respected by people back then. We used to camp on the banks and catch trout most of the day then flounder at night. For as long as I can recall, there has been talk about that bayou. Here is an older Caller Times article that might shed a touch of light on what has been going on down there.

http://www.caller.com/news/2007/jul/26/sikesoutdoors/


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

Sand is gonna fly!....or...was gonna fly or .......will fly one day...i forget it was so long ago.


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## Wadefishin (May 19, 2010)

I could be wrong here, but if im not mistaken that land is owned by the state and is just leased by the family from the port a jetties to CB. I have spent a lot of time on Matagorda island in the past few years helping manage hog populations for the sea turtle well being. To my knowledge there is not any production or ranching that goes on north on CB. Yes cattle do make it across but i think they try a keep them on th San Jose side.


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## Jim Martin (Jun 3, 2009)

The Bass family owns St. Jose Island. They got it when Sid Richardson died in or around 1959. They show on the Aransas county tax roll as the tax payers with an AGG expemption.


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## tsoetaert (Jan 23, 2008)

I am onloy 11, but I do know that my dad told me he grew up in Rockport on Copano bay and that he could fill an ice chest with blue crabs cuaght witha chicken neck, and I have gone down there at least 50 times in my life and I have only cuaght about 10 crabs total. The bays down there need something to get it going. He talks about how copano bay used to hve hundreds of crab traps and shrimp boats all over it and now it is illegal to shrimp there and you do not see hardly any crab traps. Its too bad, I think Cedar Bayou would help the whol bay system.


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## Wadefishin (May 19, 2010)

Then i stand corrected on the lease comment.


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## Wadefishin (May 19, 2010)

Jim Martin said:


> The Bass family owns St. Jose Island. They got it when Sid Richardson died in or around 1959. They show on the Aransas county tax roll as the tax payers with an AGG expemption.


You are correct i made a call to friend of mine who work out there for about six years they do own it. I dont want to change the thread i too think it is very important to have the pass open.Some of my most memorable trips as a kid were made on the banks of the bayou.


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## guiness (May 9, 2005)

Food for thought-Anyone thought of a letter righting attempt at the commissioners themselves? I too grew up fishing the bay areas around Cedar Bayou and miss it. I also believe it might flush out the vibrio issues for this area. I know its a long shot but if we can talk about this amongst ourselves surely we can write these appointees by Perry. It is election time and possible it could become some type of a "get off of center" issue. Their photos, bios and addresses are located at TPW Commissioners, Just google it. I don't know the number of 2cool members there are but our numbers with other sites may generate some movement.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

I have never understood why the Bass family does not want those passes opened since they ran their operations before the passes were closed. But they are definitely the power behind the scene making it almost impossible to get permitted. Now the word is the dredging would have to be done from the gulf side making it more difficult and expensive. The Bass family and their puppet agencies have created an ecosystem collapse and too many people are pretending they don't see the "pink elephant" in the living room. Terrible shame.


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

Ya'll don't forget _Vinson Slough!_


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## Porky (Nov 1, 2006)

Maybe mother nature will open it via the flooding Guadalupe river or a storm(we are not past the mid-september highpoint).


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## Capt. Kris Kelley (Jun 2, 2004)

*"Out Of The Mouths Of Babes"*



Razor's Edge said:


> I am onloy 11, but I do know that my dad told me he grew up in Rockport on Copano bay and that he could fill an ice chest with blue crabs cuaght witha chicken neck, and I have gone down there at least 50 times in my life and I have only cuaght about 10 crabs total. The bays down there need something to get it going. He talks about how copano bay used to hve hundreds of crab traps and shrimp boats all over it and now it is illegal to shrimp there and you do not see hardly any crab traps. Its too bad, I think Cedar Bayou would help the whol bay system.


You may only be 11, but I think you are mature well beyond your years. I am very proud of you for posting; your attention to this matter; and, I hope that someday you will see Cedar Bayou and Vinson Slough; Mesquite Bay; San Antonio Bay; Carlos; Aransas and their environs returned to their natural splendor.

However, I cannot tell you what level of sadness I feel after having read your post. A number of years ago, I joined a pretty bloody fight involving the push to open this pass. The closer I got to the fight, the more I became aware of the very powerful dark political forces that surrounded us and our efforts. It didn't take long for me to determine that retreat was not only my only option, but it was self preservation. I'm afraid we failed you son, I'm afraid I have failed you.

While I hope the many good deeds I have done will somehow counter-balance my shortcomings, it is with a very heavy heart that you must pay the price for our failures as men, fishing guides, environmental ambassadors, and leaders among our profession.

Truly,

Capt. Kris Kelley


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## Porky (Nov 1, 2006)

That's why I am wishing for a storm, even the Bass',Bushes & Butt's can't stop that !


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## shanty (Aug 15, 2010)

It will shake out. Watch Ode to Billy Joe and think good thoughts of men who do good things, but had a short coming or two. They too will have to answer, but it's tough to watch even in my profession and as advocate of conservattion. Bona



Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> You may only be 11, but I think you are mature well beyond your years. I am very proud of you for posting; your attention to this matter; and, I hope that someday you will see Cedar Bayou and Vinson Slough; Mesquite Bay; San Antonio Bay; Carlos; Aransas and their environs returned to their natural splendor.
> 
> However, I cannot tell you what level of sadness I feel after having read your post. A number of years ago, I joined a pretty bloody fight involving the push to open this pass. The closer I got to the fight, the more I became aware of the very powerful dark political forces that surrounded us and our efforts. It didn't take long for me to determine that retreat was not only my only option, but it was self preservation. I'm afraid we failed you son, I'm afraid I have failed you.
> 
> ...


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## elpistolero45 (May 9, 2010)

when I wsa a Kid back in the 70's I went ALL OVER Aransas, Mesquite, Copano and St. Charles Bays in a 14ft Arkasas Traveler Jon Boat with a 9.9 Johnson and for about 5 bucks a day, Dad kept me out of the way during summer vacation. I kept specs, reds Blue Crab on our table in regular fashion. Fishing with a few different guides over the years and I know that something is changing about that fishery.

As a kid, I remember SCOOTIN back to Key Alegro ahead of the Thunderstorms in that jon boat and being able to see the folks with the binoculars watching for my return.

Good Memories. I hope what ails that area is healed.


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## the wood man (Sep 14, 2006)

Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> You may only be 11, but I think you are mature well beyond your years. I am very proud of you for posting; your attention to this matter; and, I hope that someday you will see Cedar Bayou and Vinson Slough; Mesquite Bay; San Antonio Bay; Carlos; Aransas and their environs returned to their natural splendor.
> 
> However, I cannot tell you what level of sadness I feel after having read your post. A number of years ago, I joined a pretty bloody fight involving the push to open this pass. The closer I got to the fight, the more I became aware of the very powerful dark political forces that surrounded us and our efforts. It didn't take long for me to determine that retreat was not only my only option, but it was self preservation. I'm afraid we failed you son, I'm afraid I have failed you.
> 
> ...


great post Capt Double K Like you I feel really bad that kid and others will not experience Cedar Bayou at its best. When I was his age it was like magic to go there and camp out for the weekend. I really became a saltwater fisherman and learned to love the coast because of it. The dredging issue has been debated many times and who knows what the truth is. I will point out that after the Ixtapa oil spill in 1979 it was boomed and eventually sanded up. And as we all know it was dredged out again on several occasions the last being I believe 1995. A hurricane will not open it up, that has already been proven. I have been told that the lack of fresh water pressure now is the problem. Save Cedar Bayou has done good work but to no avail. I think that it is indisputable that Mr. Bass was head of the TxParks Wildlife dept and his family owns that part of St. Joseph island.I believe that he passed away also a couple of years ago. So what dark political forces are holding it back I dont know, but I do think they exist. Capt. Martin wrote a great deal about this last year. Anyway, it is just a shame that nothing has happened when they blow so much tax dollors on other things. Rod


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## SS Minnow (Nov 3, 2005)

From what I've read, cedar bayou and vinson slough were plugged to keep the ixtoc 1 oil spill from entering aransas bay. But only cedar bayou was ever re-dredged which lead to the eventual silting in numerous times. Since the oil spill plug, I understand that vinson slough has not been reopened and that you need to open both passes to keep the hydrological flow necessary for them to remain open. Seems to me, the passes were plugged artificially for the oil spill in 1979, but never properly reopened after the fact. Also, I believe Lee Bass has the only lifetime appointment to TPWP's board and they definitely don't like any traffic near there property.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

SS Minnow said:


> From what I've read, cedar bayou and vinson slough were plugged to keep the ixtoc 1 oil spill from entering aransas bay. But only cedar bayou was ever re-dredged which lead to the eventual silting in numerous times. Since the oil spill plug, I understand that vinson slough has not been reopened and that you need to open both passes to keep the hydrological flow necessary for them to remain open. Seems to me, the passes were plugged artificially for the oil spill in 1979, but never properly reopened after the fact. Also, I believe Lee Bass has the only lifetime appointment to TPWP's board and they definitely don't like any traffic near there property.


 What he said!


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## cruss (Aug 31, 2005)

*vinson's*

Actually, i believe the slough was plugged with the sand that was dredged after the oil spill was fixed and the dredgers came in and opened it up. I went over there shortly after it was reopened and was shocked to see mounds of fresh sand piled into Vinson's..


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

cruss said:


> Actually, i believe the slough was plugged with the sand that was dredged after the oil spill was fixed and the dredgers came in and opened it up. I went over there shortly after it was reopened and was shocked to see mounds of fresh sand piled into Vinson's..


 I heard the same thing! Let me see, I wonder who is responsible for replacing the sand dam at Vinson's? Hmm, anybody got any ideas? This is probably the "smoking gun" on this entire issue.


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## Jim Martin (Jun 3, 2009)

Chuck,

You might want to look at this. Scroll down to July 16, 2010 minutes for the low down on the special meeting.

http://www.aransascountytx.gov/main/ccminutes.php


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## Texas Jeweler (Nov 6, 2007)

SS Minnow said:


> From what I've read, cedar bayou and vinson slough were plugged to keep the ixtoc 1 oil spill from entering aransas bay. But only cedar bayou was ever re-dredged which lead to the eventual silting in numerous times. Since the oil spill plug, I understand that vinson slough has not been reopened and that you need to open both passes to keep the hydrological flow necessary for them to remain open. Seems to me, the passes were plugged artificially for the oil spill in 1979, but never properly reopened after the fact. Also, I believe Lee Bass has the only lifetime appointment to TPWP's board and they definitely don't like any traffic near there property.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, if Cedar Bayou was open, no 4 wheel drive traffic could run the high water line on St. Joe Island, so someones opinion that the Bass family is keeping the pass from being reopened does not make sense, does it?

I'm just saying...:fish:


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

Texas Jeweler said:


> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> Now, if Cedar Bayou was open, no 4 wheel drive traffic could run the high water line on St. Joe Island, so someones opinion that the Bass family is keeping the pass from being reopened does not make sense, does it?
> 
> I'm just saying...:fish:


Way Wrong! There is plenty of documentation that the Bass family has been fighting this all along. You need to do your research. Just sayin'...:bounce:


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## Reef Dawg (Dec 20, 2004)

I don't know but I heard that the Bass family got a 99 year lease on the land in 1959 @ $0.40 per acre. If that's true then they got a heck of a deal (steal).


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## deke (Oct 5, 2004)

Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> You may only be 11, but I think you are mature well beyond your years. I am very proud of you for posting; your attention to this matter; and, I hope that someday you will see Cedar Bayou and Vinson Slough; Mesquite Bay; San Antonio Bay; Carlos; Aransas and their environs returned to their natural splendor.
> 
> However, I cannot tell you what level of sadness I feel after having read your post. A number of years ago, I joined a pretty bloody fight involving the push to open this pass. The closer I got to the fight, the more I became aware of the very powerful dark political forces that surrounded us and our efforts. It didn't take long for me to determine that retreat was not only my only option, but it was self preservation. I'm afraid we failed you son, I'm afraid I have failed you.
> 
> ...


So what I take from this is that you were threatened in some manner? Nice, gotta love the good old boy politics that still prevail in this day and age. Having someone on the board who has a direct part in this is a HUGE conflict of interest. Why has that not been brought up, and he asked to bow out of any and all votes that take place concerning this?


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

deke said:


> So what I take from this is that you were threatened in some manner? Nice, gotta love the good old boy politics that still prevail in this day and age. Having someone on the board who has a direct part in this is a HUGE conflict of interest. Why has that not been brought up, and he asked to bow out of any and all votes that take place concerning this?


Just exactly what are you trying to say? You talkin' about Capt. Kelley? I signed the petition for SCBI. Do I also have a direct part in this? Is that a Huge conflict of interest? WTH you talkin' about?


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## Cool Hand (Mar 24, 2010)

Old Salty said:


> Just exactly what are you trying to say? You talkin' about Capt. Kelley? I signed the petition for SCBI. Do I also have a direct part in this? Is that a Huge conflict of interest? WTH you talkin' about?


I dont think he knows himself what he is talking about..lol


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## Duck (Feb 21, 2005)

Old Salty said:


> Just exactly what are you trying to say? You talkin' about Capt. Kelley? I signed the petition for SCBI. Do I also have a direct part in this? Is that a Huge conflict of interest? WTH you talkin' about?


I believe he is referring to Mr Bass (conflict of interest) and the tactics used by those opposed to the re-opening that KK referred to.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

Duck said:


> I believe he is referring to Mr Bass (conflict of interest) and the tactics used by those opposed to the re-opening that KK referred to.


If so, then my apologies to Deke. This is a sore subject for all of us who remember the former greatness of those passes and bay systems. I have tried to educate myself on all the various proceedings that have taken place over the years and it stinks to high heaven. I'd like to see someone like Wayne Dolcefino get a hold of these people and chew 'em to pieces. From what I have read and what I have been told in private by people who are on the front line in this battle, well all I can say is that it is pure evil.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Chris Kelly*

Kris I know a few in Bass Family, like most uberwealthy families they don't always know whats may be going on with their synchophants -- heck I was fishin Cedar Bayou in 1988 when Perry Bass and Sid Bass were still a movers and shakers - was down there one day when a beach plane lands and out hops Sid and GW Bush for a day of surf fishin - I know the Bass family has done as much or MORE for Texas Saltwater fisheries in way of money and donations to projects than has any wealthy family in Texas. Not real sure what threats may have been made to you or by whom (as in vested interests) but I don't think Sid would have used threats, he is so well connected he wouldn't ever have to - can't say much for the nuts that fell from the tree though - Sid you could/can sit down an talk to -- from the looks of things the County has the funding and grants now to get Cedar Bayou re-opened, I for one sincerely hopes this comes to fruition -- I spent thousands of hours on that slough from the early seventies till it sanded in for good -- all the prior dredging was a waste of money as the channel was not dredged out to the gulf , nor re-inforced to keep the channel open - I really think that maybe some of the kids have bought into the environmental crapola put forth by the tree hugger study that was done prior to the last effort to- reopen the slough - maybe some opposition in that area, but I wouldn't think Sid Bass was behind it.

For the record Sid Richardson who was oil partner with Perry Bass - purchased 150,000 acres of the island in 1936 - Sid Richardson Bass is one of the several heirs who have an interest in the island -- Sid Richardson maintained a home on the island and dies there in the late fifties

I can see though why the current iteration of the Bass family might want to keep it closed due to the enormous amount of Trash some beer drinkin slobs used to leave behind.


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## cruss (Aug 31, 2005)

*island*

there is no way that island is 150k acres, and the trash left behind by fishermen cannot even come close in comparison to the trash that oil rigs and ships dump and floats onto the beach and bayou do to the funneling affect.


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## Comeback (Jul 30, 2010)

Folk's the Organization "Save Cedar Bayou" has been battling to get the pass open for a good long time. They need our support. You can follow the threads over at "TexasFlats.net" http://www.texasflats.net/index.php/board,36.0.html . There is a LOT of good factual information posted by "lynnscb". Lynn has really been spear heading this project and has literaly dedicated her life to it. If you really want to see the pass open you need to contact your representatives in the House and Senate. Send them a letter a tell them to get the pass open!!! The Corps of Engineers has really stimied the opening of the pass with one request after another. The latest request being to dredge the pass from the Gulf Side at an additional cost of $500,000. They are doing there best to see that this pass never gets opened again. For those of us who REALLY care about this pass....TAKE action. Go to the Texas Flats site and get caught up on the latest. Lynn posted her phone number if anyone has any questions.

LET'S GET IT OPEN!!!!


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

Yes there is a lot of **** that floats n there as it is an eddy -- I was talkin about what I KNOW was left behind by boaters - carried out boat loads full every time we went - even TPWD used to do regular clean-ups.

You are correct it is 33,000 acres but was parcel in 150,000 acres purchased at that time.

I saw nothing in the response letter from Bass holdings attornies that indicated anything other than co-operation with this project -- I have been doing oil and land work in Texas for years, and the easement of Vinson Slough South bank does belong to Richardson/Bass et/al, they own to the high tide line -- so if you cross the dredge, potentially you COULD be run -off as trespassing -- but the family has been a partner with Texas fishermen for years -- and never in the past enforced this -- I like the idea of the dredge spoil along their edge of that area as well -- all of this needs for the actual stakeholders to sit down without the **** lawyers being involved -- thats where it becomes a cluster f***. 

The Bass family is very private and want their privacy maintained 

There was never boating allowed thru the pass - nor should there ever be.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

Actually if you look at this as a land issue - fishermen rank right at the bottom of the totem pole - this land holding is no different than King ranch shoreline and a LOT less enforced - try stepping out of the boat there -- hollering its my right -- will not accomplish one dang thing -- this holding has been going on since sand was white - 

Somewhere in all the sound and fury we the fishing public need to make some friends instead of draggin this thru the courts -- I don't think we will ever win when those who have the Gold make the rules JMHO.


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## Comeback (Jul 30, 2010)

Trueblue, Your right, we need to keep this out of the courts. For what ever reason, the Corps. of Engineers has not issued a permit even though we have met every requirement they have asked for. I think all of us who fish and live in the Aransas, St. Charles area know how vital it is to have the pass open. I would like to see the family that owns the land to get behind the push to have it open too. It can only enhance the offerings of what lies in their backyard. If they have issues to opening the pass then let's hear them and work through those issue. It's the Corps. Of Engineers that's holding this thing up. It would be nice to have some of the land owners push on the Corp. too.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

TrueblueTexican said:


> Yes there is a lot of **** that floats n there as it is an eddy -- I was talkin about what I KNOW was left behind by boaters - carried out boat loads full every time we went - even TPWD used to do regular clean-ups.
> 
> You are correct it is 33,000 acres but was parcel in 150,000 acres purchased at that time.
> 
> ...


If you believe the landowner is cooperating then you need to be re-educated. Go to texasflats.net and find the Save Cedar Bayou forum. Lynn has posted a world of information on how the landowner has "cooperated" LOL. You want to talk about trash left behind and how the Bass family wants their privacy? Get real! How about talking about vibrio? How about talking about the collapse of the fisheries? How about Whooping Cranes dying off because there has been a collapse of the crab populations? What about the massive salt pans that have developed where vibrant marshes use to be? You must be on the family payroll. Go post your propoganda somewhere else. Nobody's buyin' it here.
Old Salty-still pluggin'


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Old Salty*

Still at I see....your brained washed into thinking opening that opening the pass will rid the the bay of vibrio, save the Whoopers, and improve the fishery. As long as Lynn and Smarr are involved the sand will never fly. It has been like 12 years now since SCBI started trying to get the sand removed. Maybe if the RFA got involved you could sit on it 12 more years.
You got the right two people working on it as Jim and Lynn are masters at getting nothing accomplished!









Gater


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## fishsmart (Dec 5, 2004)

If the land owners wanted Cedar Bayou open, it would be open.

Charles


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## El Primero (Jun 14, 2008)

I grew up about 1 mile from the Goose Island boat launch in the neighborhood just to your right as you are getting to the ramp. I remember the late 80's and early 90's there and am glad I had the opportunity to experience it. Enough nostalgia already, if they were to dredge it again what could be done to keep it open? Would a small jetty be needed to keep flow going through there? I also hear from time to time the federal government is going to get involved on behalf of the Aransas Wildlife Refuge and the Whooping Cranes. Suppose it could be hear-say though. With the pressure imposed upon the fishery that extends from San Antonio Bay-Redfish bay it sure seems that the reopenening of the pass would provide some benefit.


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## jwest (Jan 23, 2009)

gater said:


> ....your brained washed into thinking opening that opening the pass will rid the the bay of vibrio, save the Whoopers, and improve the fishery.
> 
> Gater


I can't think of a reason why opening the pass wouldn't help with all that you mentioned above. I'm no expert but the way I think I understand it is that vibrio thrives in stagnant water - opening the pass would greatly increase circulation in the bay. It stands to reason that if there were good clean water around the pass instead of the stagnant crud that is there now, there would be a greater food source for the whooping cranes - thus increasing their chance for survival. And finally, imrove the fishery. I was not fortunate enough to fish Cedar Bayou back in the good ol' days, but I have spoken with many people who did and I have yet to find one single person say that the fishing is better around that area now than it was back in 19__ when the pass was open. So if you ask me if opening Cedar Bayou and Vinson Slough is a good idea, I say absolutely. Give me a reason why it would be a bad thing to reopen a natural pass from the bay to the gulf. This would actually be something I would be glad for the state to spend some of my tax money on.


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## FL (Oct 13, 2004)

gater said:


> Still at I see....your brained washed into thinking opening that opening the pass will rid the the bay of vibrio, save the Whoopers, and improve the fishery. As long as Lynn and Smarr are involved the sand will never fly. It has been like 12 years now since SCBI started trying to get the sand removed. Maybe if the RFA got involved you could sit on it 12 more years.
> You got the right two people working on it as Jim and Lynn are masters at getting nothing accomplished!
> 
> 
> ...


Gater, 
That is a REALLY cold statement. SCBI has worked their butts off only to be stymied by the Corp. The county has gotten involved but no progress that way either. If the Bass family wanted it open, it would have been done all ready.
What have you done to get the pass open? Whatever it is, hasn't worked either.
Fred


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

TrueBlueTexian? You are so wrong! Please answer one question. Was Vinsion Slough closed because of the oil spill back in 1979? Was it ever re-opened? Who is keeping it from being it opened? Is that the way nature intended it to be?


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

There is no hope for Gater. Anything he posts should be summarily dismissed and ignored. Publicly mocking the efforts of those on the front line of this issue is proof of his lack of character. Thousands of lives have been adversely affected, not to mention the ecological damage itself. Gater, you have displayed your true colors and you have achieved irrelevance.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Cedar bayou*



FL said:


> Gater,
> That is a REALLY cold statement. SCBI has worked their butts off only to be stymied by the Corp. The county has gotten involved but no progress that way either. If the Bass family wanted it open, it would have been done all ready.
> What have you done to get the pass open? Whatever it is, hasn't worked either.
> Fred


I have not done anything to get Cedar Bayou open because I don't think it needs to be open. It is a natural pass and if mother nature wanted it open it would be open! Gater


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Cedar bayou*



Old Salty said:


> There is no hope for Gater. Anything he posts should be summarily dismissed and ignored. Publicly mocking the efforts of those on the front line of this issue is proof of his lack of character. Thousands of lives have been adversely affected, not to mention the ecological damage itself. Gater, you have displayed your true colors and you have achieved irrelevance.


Old Salty do you care to explain for those of us not in the know how this pass being closed has adversely effected thousands of lives and what ecological damage that has been done. I'll wait for your reply because I'm sure you will have to get will Smarr before you answer these two questions.

Gater


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

gater said:


> I have not done anything to get Cedar Bayou open because I don't think it needs to be open. It is a natural pass and if mother nature wanted it open it would be open! Gater


Everybody see this? What a genius!


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

some people are just plane dumb. Let me get this straight--- oil spill, sand up the pass and the slough, open the pass (barley) don't open Vinson slough so the bbbasss bunch can drive that shore line and dang mother nature? whow. I just don't get it!


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

gater said:


> Old Salty do you care to explain for those of us not in the know how this pass being closed has adversely effected thousands of lives and what ecological damage that has been done. I'll wait for your reply because I'm sure you will have to get will Smarr before you answer these two questions.
> 
> Gater


Ladies and gentlemen! Presenting "gater", the Sherlock Holmes of coastal conservation! You may now applaud!


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Well*

I wish I WAS on Bass payroll - they treat their employees well - however I am NOT -- BTW I am WAS a charter member of what WAS the TEXAS Coastal Conservation Association( Ft Worth Chapter) before it went National, back when we got things accomplished -- In fact it was a group of us who helped lobby for the second dredging of the pass years ago (TPWD was involved then as was Perry Bass) the pass has been re-dredged TWICE since it was closed by man in 1978, none of those lasted more than seven years before it sanded up again - that alone tells me we have been wasting millions of dollars for a short term benefit -- we need a PERMANENT solution, not just one for a short term fishing benefit.

Have you bothered to read the Lawyers letter? Show me where its said go pound sand, to the contrary it stated that the owners recognized the need to re-open the pass -- now as to who is dragging feet it appears to me it is a Federal Problem with Corps BS.

Yep the Bass family COULD easily finance the whole thing - and talking REASONABLY to the correct folks (instead of making enemies) might just see this proceed - I haven't weighed in on this for the last three years because it started off with adversity and has continued down that path from day one. Lynn Edwards worked diligently to get this done - I applaud the effort behind it - but I am not sure what the real hold up may be - I see a lot of conjecture and little proof other than hearsay. The CIAP has a 5 million grant available if the permit is issued by Sep 1,(and we know that isn't happening) that is being held up by the CORPS AGAIN, for feasibility study thru Mesquite bay - I don't see the Bass name in there --- nor do I join up with any fishing group anymore -- I haven't seen any progress made in either CCA, RFA et al. convenient place to drop off dues though --

Cedar Bayou was a fishing paradise for many years, and I hope it becomes one again -- but it won't ever happen unless cool heads prevail.

Maybe this should be approached from a whole different avenue -- as in dredging an off channel farther north and connecting with the backside of Vinson, around the spot where the fishing shack used to stand -- there needs to be some out of the box thinking for a change.

I have seen a LOT of changes in the area in the last years, Cavallo is sanding in, the Jetties channel just keep scouring and getting deeper, Aransas Pass is doing much the same and the Packery Channel was opened - a lot of the flow which used to go thru Vinson slough now flows elsewhere, and all of these changes are altering the fishery and the health of the bays - I don't have the answers (short of a Katrina, God Forbid) I guess we get exactly the results we are satisfied with.


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## tsoetaert (Jan 23, 2008)

Mr. Gator,
I am only 11 years old and have been down there many times to fish and play and from the stories I have heard from my dad, my three uncles, my grandpa, my grandma I have never got to experience the thrill of catching more thatn one blue crab. My great grandpa owned a marina down there (Pouzee's Pier from 1968 till he died and he was a man of the water. He was an expert on the bay systems and he knew a lot more than you about what is good and what is bad. It looks like you live in Tiki island, how would you like it if San Luis Pass was closed off becuase of the oil spill in the guld to protect your million dollar home and bay system and then they never reopened it and then West bay died, there were not more fishign spots or any good. I think they should nto only open Cedar Bayou, but I think the state should take some of the land from the bass family and build a marina with jetties and make it a noraml exit for the bay system. I am sure when the bass family runs out of money my kids will see big condos on that island with a big bridge connecting to it anyway. Why should one famil y get to have so much good land and not share in helping keep the bay system working. All we want is to have a way for good clean salt water to enter and exit the bay without having to go the way to Port Aransas. Share the water share the burden share the cost. This famil y is so rich, they shold pay to have the pass opened the way they think it should be open. Don't be stingy. Again I am only 11 but the last time I was there three weeks ago, I picked up more trash than I caught fish. When is the last time you went doen there and did that. Why are you being so negative. give us your reasons for keeping it closed. Help us to understand why you are so serious about a project that will never impact Tiki island. If I recall, I think the county, the state and the govenment just spent millions rebuilding galveston, dredging the bays and cleaning up trash from Hurrican Ike, I am sure you did not argue about none of that. That was a natural disaster, but you still wnated your home and water cleanded up. So from an 11 year old to a old guy, why don't you politely mind your own business.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Razor I got a mission for you*

US old farts aren't getting the job done :smile:- write Sid Bass respectfully requesting an audience - publish it as a school project - it amazing what good sense can accomplish - respectfully, Tony Hughes, late of POC.


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## jwest (Jan 23, 2009)

gater said:


> I have not done anything to get Cedar Bayou open because I don't think it needs to be open. It is a natural pass and if mother nature wanted it open it would be open! Gater


I'm pretty sure mother nature wants it open. She put it there in the first place and wasn't the one that closed it. She probably is no longer able to open it on her own because of man-made passes like the POC and Port A Jetties. These man-made passes move such massive amounts of water that the remaining volume of water is no longer sufficient to open Cedar Bayou naturally.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Razor's Edge*



Razor's Edge said:


> Mr. Gator,
> I am only 11 years old and have been down there many times to fish and play and from the stories I have heard from my dad, my three uncles, my grandpa, my grandma I have never got to experience the thrill of catching more thatn one blue crab. My great grandpa owned a marina down there (Pouzee's Pier from 1968 till he died and he was a man of the water. He was an expert on the bay systems and he knew a lot more than you about what is good and what is bad. It looks like you live in Tiki island, how would you like it if San Luis Pass was closed off becuase of the oil spill in the guld to protect your million dollar home and bay system and then they never reopened it and then West bay died, there were not more fishign spots or any good. I think they should nto only open Cedar Bayou, but I think the state should take some of the land from the bass family and build a marina with jetties and make it a noraml exit for the bay system. I am sure when the bass family runs out of money my kids will see big condos on that island with a big bridge connecting to it anyway. Why should one famil y get to have so much good land and not share in helping keep the bay system working. All we want is to have a way for good clean salt water to enter and exit the bay without having to go the way to Port Aransas. Share the water share the burden share the cost. This famil y is so rich, they shold pay to have the pass opened the way they think it should be open. Don't be stingy. Again I am only 11 but the last time I was there three weeks ago, I picked up more trash than I caught fish. When is the last time you went doen there and did that. Why are you being so negative. give us your reasons for keeping it closed. Help us to understand why you are so serious about a project that will never impact Tiki island. If I recall, I think the county, the state and the govenment just spent millions rebuilding galveston, dredging the bays and cleaning up trash from Hurrican Ike, I am sure you did not argue about none of that. That was a natural disaster, but you still wnated your home and water cleanded up. So from an 11 year old to a old guy, why don't you politely mind your own business.


First of all lets get one thing straight, just because I live on Tiki Island doesn't mean I live in a million dollar home, not even close. In fact there are very few million dollar homes on Tiki island.

Now to try and answer your questions....

You can't compare San Luis Pass to Cedar Bayou. San Luis Pass is the largest natural pass on the coast and roughly 20 percent of the Galveston Bay complex goes in and out of it. Cedar Bayou is not killing the bay system down there so comparing the closing of San Luis Pass to Cedar Bayou means very little.

Cedar Bayou when open is a good place to fish but beyond that serves very little purpose. With roughly 2 million saltwater anglers in the State 
a very very small percentage will ever enjoy it as your family has before it would silt back up. Why should the goverment spend tax dollars to dredge and maintain a fish pass just for a very small percentage to use.

When the ICW passed through San Antonio Bay it changed the hydraulics of the entire bay system as did many places along the coast. There will never be enough water movement to keep it open without yearly maintenance. Putting in a jetty system may help keep the pass open but will only lead to worse silting inland. This is the same reason they want to close rollover pass.

What is hurting that bay system is the lack of fresh water not the need for more salt water. Without freshwater our coastal marshes and bay systems cannot survive. Over the last 10-20 years the San Antonio area has been taken more and more water not allowing this water to reach the coast.

Over the last 10 to 12 years there have been folks at war with the Bass family over this fish pass. At times things have gotten ugly which is not the right wat to go about it. The Bass family has a ton of money, lots of political influence and it is their land. Getting in a ******* match with them only makes things worse. I would very suprised if it ever was open by man again.

I hope that explains a few things and one other thing, when my 11 year old son calls me and old guy he gets grounded!









Gater


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Pass*



jwest said:


> I'm pretty sure mother nature wants it open. She put it there in the first place and wasn't the one that closed it. She probably is no longer able to open it on her own because of man-made passes like the POC and Port A Jetties. These man-made passes move such massive amounts of water that the remaining volume of water is no longer sufficient to open Cedar Bayou naturally.


A good Ike type cane will open it, but you hit the nail on the head, there is not enough water exchange to keep it open.

Gater


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

Gater? Your thoughts are foolish my misguided friend. What is your agenda? Maybe a Christmas bonus?


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

Truebluetexican, you sir, are drinking "Bass family koolaid". Yes, they own the land, but they do not own Cedar Bayou/Vinson Slough. Dig a little deeper with your research and you will find many skillful maneuvers on their part to prevent the permitting. Hydrological studies have shown that CB/VS work in conjunction with each other to keep both passes opened. You can't dredge Cedar Bayou and dam up Vinson Slough and expect positive results. And now to gater. Lying to an eleven year old child? You have reached a new low!


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*Old Salty My friend your spot on! Lets stay on this thread!*


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## jwest (Jan 23, 2009)

gater said:


> A good Ike type cane will open it, but you hit the nail on the head, there is not enough water exchange to keep it open.
> 
> Gater


I wasn't saying that there's not enough water exchange to keep the pass open. I was simply saying that there's obviously not enough water exchange to open the pass naturally.


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## cruss (Aug 31, 2005)

*pass*

as i recall the pass had remained opened for over five hundred years on its own until man closed it up for the oil leakage. when it came time to dredge it open it was only dredged at about half the size of it's original channel plus the sand was deposited in the vinson slough opening. Rumor had it that perry bass had this done and as the water evaporated out of vinson's slough he gained another 1500 acres on the lower end. with the channel narrower and shallower it didnt take long for it to silt in. so, who knows if it would maintain itself today because it never was dredged to the proper size.


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*2coolers*

This is a very important topic. If you don't fish down there or not. This is all about money talks and BS walks. This is wrong wrong and wrong to let the big money boys take our land and blame it on ecology or mother nature. Cowards!


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

I deal with irate landowners, negotiate land ROW settlements, and push pipeline projects and well connects all over Texas. I deal with landowners who have been run over roughshod by the State and imminent domain, as well as go to abritration in counties all over Texas. Even though I work as an adversary to many landowners (depending on who I contract for) I will always side with the owners if I can -- and in working with some very wealthy owners , they generally are some great folks 

I see from some of the more "rabid" replies is why I quit organizing to protect Texas fisheries -- not to reply in kind -- ya'll won't EVER get the pass reopened with a militant attitude - too much water under the bridge and too many "conspiracy" theorists with black helicopters buzzin their home - same kinda folks who voted in the mess we have in Congress , and the abomination in the White House.

Who keeps puttin this on HOLD -- the Feds, its a conspiracy of the wealthy so they can run cattle,oil and hotels after the causeway is built (give me a break)-- how many of ya'll have requested to talk to the Fisheries Comissioners face to face in a sane manner -- there is an art to negotiation, I don't see too many actually asking what the Landowner wants - just demands made by folks who in the long run really don't matter - some new approaches need to be made from someone willing to make fresh starts to get this pass opened --

I am 100% in favor of seeing it done RIGHT and kept open for fisheries and ecology of the bay -- just think there is not much actually being accomplished by screamin about the owners -- some of the same stuff has been said about King Ranch and Kenedy Ranch as well -- I don't cross fences without permission and co-operation of an owner - this won't get done until some negotiation in good faith is done with the owners.

Pure STUPIDITY keeps getting this put on hold - from both sides 

I'm goin catchin - see ya'll on the tide chance.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Salty*



Old Salty said:


> Truebluetexican, you sir, are drinking "Bass family koolaid". Yes, they own the land, but they do not own Cedar Bayou/Vinson Slough. Dig a little deeper with your research and you will find many skillful maneuvers on their part to prevent the permitting. Hydrological studies have shown that CB/VS work in conjunction with each other to keep both passes opened. You can't dredge Cedar Bayou and dam up Vinson Slough and expect positive results. And now to gater. Lying to an eleven year old child? You have reached a new low!


I did not lie to an eleven year old, the thing is your not smart enough to know the truth. Your lost without Smarr to tell what to say. By the way still waiting on answers from the earlier post.

Gater


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

cruss said:


> as i recall the pass had remained opened for over five hundred years on its own until man closed it up for the oil leakage. when it came time to dredge it open it was only dredged at about half the size of it's original channel plus the sand was deposited in the vinson slough opening. Rumor had it that perry bass had this done and as the water evaporated out of vinson's slough he gained another 1500 acres on the lower end. with the channel narrower and shallower it didnt take long for it to silt in. so, who knows if it would maintain itself today because it never was dredged to the proper size.


You are absolutely right! This has all been documented and available information for those who dare seek the truth!


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

gater said:


> I did not lie to an eleven year old, the thing is your not smart enough to know the truth. Your lost without Smarr to tell what to say. By the way still waiting on answers from the earlier post.
> 
> Gater


Does anybody else think that gater is paying maybe a little "too much attention" to an eleven year old? I'm beginning to really wonder about you gater. Listen, if you are mentally impaired, I will understand. But until you fess up to being one sandwich short of a picnic, you and your aberrations are fair game in my book. I told you long ago, I'm not going to do your research for you. And stop pulluting the minds of the youngsters on this board!


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Old Salty*



Old Salty said:


> Does anybody else think that gater is paying maybe a little "too much attention" to an eleven year old? I'm beginning to really wonder about you gater. Listen, if you are mentally impaired, I will understand. But until you fess up to being one sandwich short of a picnic, you and your aberrations are fair game in my book. I told you long ago, I'm not going to do your research for you. And stop pulluting the minds of the youngsters on this board!


I do not need to do any research, I am not the one that made a couple of asnine statements that can't back them up. I am still waiting, what thousands of lively hoods has been effected and what ecological damage has it caused. You can't answer those questions because there is no answer. It's just some other line of the same old BS that the same old people have been throwing around for the last 12 years. How can the powers to be take anyone serious when you come up with stuff like that.
You are the one that keeps bringing up the eleven year old, he ask questions and I gave him answers. It's my opinion, not saying I'm right but it gives him more information and another point of view, which believe it or not, there is another side to this.

This a message board where people can ask questions and get answers. Where they can have an open discussion and look at the many sides of any given topic. The problem we have here is that with SCBI, you and Mr. Smarr is there is only one side and it in your mind is the right side. There pluses and minuses to opening Cedar Bayou and IMHO the minuses outweigh the pluses. I all reality, the real reason behind the push from you and the other SCBI cronies is because of a personal vendeta towards the Bass family. It has nothing to do with Blue Crabs, Whooping Cranes or Vibrio.

You keep plugging away, it's been 12 long years, I'm sure the sand will fly one day.









Gater


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## RockportRobert (Dec 29, 2006)

One truckload of dynamite and someone that knows what to do with it, and that pass could be open tomorrow.....

"Yes sir, I can do that. Do you want the channel with sloped sides, or V-shaped?"


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

gater said:


> I do not need to do any research, I am not the one that made a couple of asnine statements that can't back them up. I am still waiting, what thousands of lively hoods has been effected and what ecological damage has it caused. You can't answer those questions because there is no answer. It's just some other line of the same old BS that the same old people have been throwing around for the last 12 years. How can the powers to be take anyone serious when you come up with stuff like that.
> You are the one that keeps bringing up the eleven year old, he ask questions and I gave him answers. It's my opinion, not saying I'm right but it gives him more information and another point of view, which believe it or not, there is another side to this.
> 
> This a message board where people can ask questions and get answers. Where they can have an open discussion and look at the many sides of any given topic. The problem we have here is that with SCBI, you and Mr. Smarr is there is only one side and it in your mind is the right side. There pluses and minuses to opening Cedar Bayou and IMHO the minuses outweigh the pluses. I all reality, the real reason behind the push from you and the other SCBI cronies is because of a personal vendeta towards the Bass family. It has nothing to do with Blue Crabs, Whooping Cranes or Vibrio.
> ...


Ladies and gentlemen! I present gater "the magnificent"!


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

There pluses and minuses to opening Cedar Bayou and IMHO the minuses outweigh the pluses. I all reality, the real reason behind the push from you and the other SCBI cronies is because of a personal vendeta towards the Bass family. It has nothing to do with Blue Crabs, Whooping Cranes or Vibrio.

You keep plugging away, it's been 12 long years, I'm sure the sand will fly one day.









OldSalty did Gater ever answer my question that I asked him about "Who blocked Vension Slough" That is what these people do. Gater if your out from under your bed yet "Who blocked up Vension Slough" and who wants to keep it closed? Hello??? I will answer your question about personal vendetta towards the Bass family and no personal vendetta at all. Just let us put the beach back the way it was. Surly you can understand that.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

Don't know who blocked off Venison slough, if that happened all the deer hunters would be seriously pixxed off -- 

Vinson Slough was blocked in part by the second dredge and lack of tidal flow.

No lets NOT put the beach back the way it was -- lets make the pass PERMANENT again. Same old , same old , will only see it sand in again.


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*Trueblue(texan)*

Thanks for your input. We have to have water flowing through Vensoin Slough to keep CB open. Your comments about the deer hunters is not my concern. The oil spill back in the late 70's did Vension Slough in period. Don't get me wrong I hunt deer in the hill country, but that sure looks like part of the problem. If you put the slough back the way it was before to oil spill then the hunters could not travel up the beach why? Put the slough back to the way it was and water was flowing across St. Joe Island. Can you not see my point? Mother nature had the water flowing across the Island to change the current and keep CB open. Man covered up the water ways across St. Joe Island. If people have hidden agendas (deer hunters like you said) I really don't give a d--n. Put it back the way nature had it period. What say you?


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## paymerick (May 19, 2010)

I say if the whoopers need blue crabs they need go no further than 30 miles upcoast, it'd be heaven for them... They fly all of the way from Canada each year and find the same dammn wintering-grounds, yet they can't find where the blue-crab are?

If this is the case, they remind me of the panda... We try all we can to save it but it's too lazy to reproduce...


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## Sugar Jay (Feb 10, 2010)

paymerick said:


> I say if the whoopers need blue crabs they need go no further than 30 miles upcoast, it'd be heaven for them... They fly all of the way from Canada each year and find the same dammn wintering-grounds, yet they can't find where the blue-crab are?
> 
> If this is the case, they remind me of the panda... We try all we can to save it but it's too lazy to reproduce...


 Yup you're right, it is the animals fault we are killing them. Don't they know they fly over hundreds of grocery stores that have crab in them on their way down here. Stupid lazy cranes!:headknock


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*paymerick*

*paymerick Listen *to your self

Us human's changing the way nature had things set up and all you can say is the birds can find a different place to feed? You have to be kidding me! People like this is a big part of the problem. We don't have permission from mother nature to change things just because it fits your agenda. We need to wake up period. Look back at some of the lame responses on this topic. Agenda is so clear. 1. need to have the slough closed so more cattle can be raised. 2. We need to keep it closed because it will pi-- off the deer hunters that can't drive the beaches. 3. Screw the birds they can find a different place to live. Those are some great excuses. Thank you all for your answers on why this slough is still closed. Any more reasons would be greatly appreciated.


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## DavidCorpusTX (Aug 11, 2005)

TrueblueTexican said:


> No lets NOT put the beach back the way it was -- lets make the pass PERMANENT again. Same old , same old , will only see it sand in again.


Your thinking is flawed, nothing on the coast is permanent. I don't care what is built there to temporarily make it do what we want it to do, mother nature will win.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Driftwood*



driftwoodfisher said:


> There pluses and minuses to opening Cedar Bayou and IMHO the minuses outweigh the pluses. I all reality, the real reason behind the push from you and the other SCBI cronies is because of a personal vendeta towards the Bass family. It has nothing to do with Blue Crabs, Whooping Cranes or Vibrio.
> 
> You keep plugging away, it's been 12 long years, I'm sure the sand will fly one day.
> 
> ...


Well Mr. Driftwood if you read what you wrote you would know that you never ask me that question. That question was directed to TrueBlueTexican. But since you asked I will try and answer who filled in Vinsons Slough. I thought Old salty would have answered for you since he knows everything except the answer to the two questions I asked earlier.
Now I was not there and did not witness a bulldozer or anyone with shovels throwing sand in Vinsons Slough but it is my understanding that the USFWS signed off on that little project. Again, I may be wrong but I believe it has something to do with that area being a Federaly protected nesting area for the endangered Piping Plover. All I know is I did not authorize it or participate in it!

Gater


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## FL (Oct 13, 2004)

Here is a very interesting read from a lawyer representing the Bass family.

http://www.texasflats.net/index.php/topic,7005.0.html

One of their complaints is losing vehicle access if Vinson Slough is dredged. They make no mention of the fact that they never had this access until both passes were shut because of the oil spill. I don't have a vendetta against the Bass family, but both Vinson and Cedar Bayou should have been opened after the oil spill crisis.

Fred


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## Sugar Jay (Feb 10, 2010)

I am no expert on anything, but I have fished Cedar when it was open and I have a lot of great memories from it, and some of my best fish, from trout to reds to shark. I can tell you since it has closed I have moved further and further from fishing that area to heading to the Corpus area. I have that option driving in from San Antonio, people that live there do not. But I generate business from the gas I use to the hotel I sleep in, to the bait I purchase, to the restaurante I eat at (maybe I am the reason Chili's closed down). It all equates to money in the end so to say it doesn't have a ripple effect on many peoples lives, your only kidding yourself. 
The other thing that bothers me in reading this post is that we are all fisherman on this forum and should support each other. While this pass does not effect everyone on here it does effect some. If someone told me we need San Luis Pass open because it will help their fishery, I am for it. Does it benefit me no, but I love to fish, and I respect my fellow humans that share the same passion for the sport as I do. If you are worried about tax payers money there are tons of other things you could argue their spending on besides something that helps the sport you love. Just my 2 cents


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

Well Mr. Driftwood if you read what you wrote you would know that you never ask me that question. That question was directed to TrueBlueTexican. But since you asked I will try and answer who filled in Vinsons Slough. I thought Old salty would have answered for you since he knows everything except the answer to the two questions I asked earlier.
Now I was not there and did not witness a bulldozer or anyone with shovels throwing sand in Vinsons Slough but it is my understanding that the USFWS signed off on that little project. Again, I may be wrong but I believe it has something to do with that area being a Federaly protected nesting area for the endangered Piping Plover. All I know is I did not authorize it or participate in it!

Thanks for your response Mr. Gater and you make my point! MAN closed the slough period. You say USFWS signed off on that little project (little project)? Whow! I was not there I was down in Austin at the first GCCA meeting trying to stop the e legal netting. I have been involved with this fisheries for a long time. Like I have been saying... MAN closed it up. Man needs to undo the wrong no matter the agenda. I will confess my agenda is recreational fishing and keeping mother nature happy. What is your agenda? Were you there in Austin? I look forward to more of your dialogue. So far I only have three reasons to keep it closed. Deer hunting, raising cattle and stupid birds.

Gater


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## paymerick (May 19, 2010)

Personally the whoopers deal was kind of a joke but kinda serious at the same time... You'd think a bird that flew thousands of miles and made its mark could go find crabs where they are more than plentiful... 

I wonder how many crab a year those 250 or so whoopers need... Maybe we could transfer some there ha


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## paymerick (May 19, 2010)

As for my opinion on cb and vs, this honestly is the first time I've read about in detail etc... As long as those tracts of land are public I say dredge away...


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*Gater*

Since you lost my name (driftwoodfisher) you just lost you name Mr. Gater If you look back at post #64 you will see that I asked you gater what is your agenda. Well what is it gater. You guestion me OK. I'm going to question you. WHAT is your agenda? gater what a great screen name for a lawyer. Gods speed and let open up the slough. I will be waiting on pins and needles for you response to my question What is you agenda (Christmas bonus)?


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## olympic catch (Sep 18, 2006)

Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson will speak on Cedar Bayou on Thursday, the 16th of September. The Aransas County Republican Club is sponsoring this event and the meeting is at 6PM at Paws and Taws on Fulton Beach Road in Fulton, Texas. Speaking also will be Aransas County Judge Burt Mills and State Representative Todd Hunter. Call Jim Mixon at 361 729 4049 for any other details.


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*Yo Gaaater? Oh Gaaater? what say you man*

my rear is getting soar waiting on you response. What is your agenda? I will wait as long as I need to and remind us daily. gater oh gater?


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*gater oh gator??*

Been gone for a while. My donkey and the dogs starting raising cane. I was thinking a rattle snake but only turned out to be a rabbit skunk. Then I started to think of you again. Have you figured out you agenda yet? Dang the air sure smells bad out in Driftwood.. I can't stand the smell of a skunk.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Driftwoodfisher*

Sorry, I've been busy.....To answer your question I don't have an agenda. What irkes me is all these yahoo's that want it open are leading people to believe that the bay is dead because it's closed and there are no trout in Rockport because it's closed, the whoopers are starving because all the crabs died and on and on with a bunch of BS. Spending the money to open the pass that has little to no benifit to the bay system does not make much sense. If you could dredge it one time and be done with and it made all the locals happy it would be one thing but that is not the case.
The State is closing Rollover pass because of the cost to maintain it so why would you do away with one headache and create another to take it's place. Gotta go... there, you asked and I answered.

Mr. Gater


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*gater you are a smart guy*

Lets get back on point. Why don't we open Vinson Slough back up?? This is my third or fourth try to get an answer from you. The only brave people that have replied talked about keeping it closed because of deer hunting, stupid birds and cattle. And Sir I'm no yahoo. Please answer my simple questions. The answer is??


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## Reef Dawg (Dec 20, 2004)

I read a post earlier that stated that the Bass family had no access to the land between Vinson's and Cedar before Vinson's was plugged by sand. If you look at Google earth it shows the land between Cedar and Vinson's as an island named Ballou. The Bass family doesn't have rights to Ballou island as far as I know. And no one has stated differently. It seems as if they may be overstepping their bounds a little.


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*gator oh gator oh gator what say you?*

I'm still waiting my friend for your most informative response. Why don't you don't want Vinsent slough opened back up beside the cows and the stupid birds (Whoopers) and the deer hunters (oh lets don't forget Christmas bonus)? Still waiting my friend. What say you?


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*Reef dawg*

read back and pay attention to these posts. Its scary how things work. I'm still waiting a response from our friend gater. Why do we need vinsion slough closed? only answers yet are cows, deer hunters and those pesky birds. What say you sir gater? It looks obvious that the bass bunch has the most to gain. But who am I to question? Oh I remember now I'm a Proud Texan born and raised in Texas. What say you gater?


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*HA HA Driftwoodfisher*

Since the pun seems to have gone over your head I was pokin ya in the ribs about "Venison" (sp) Slough -- 
Geez man take a chill pill -- If you can't laugh at what a furbar this has become in the last three years , your blood presure is gonna kill ya.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Driftwood*

Dude you need to step away from the bottle! I answered your question on what I know about Vinson Slough back in post 77. To me it would make sense that if they ever opened Cedar Bayou they would open Vinson Slough but Like I mentioned I think the USFWS put a hold on that. And I really don't think we have to worry about any one of them being open anytime soon.

By the way if you were in Austin fighting to stop illegal netting you lost about 20 years somewhere.

*Whow! I was not there I was down in Austin at the first GCCA meeting trying to stop the e legal netting.*

By the way if you have been involved in fisheries a long time what exactley do you do with the fishery.

Gater


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## Rosharon Red (Mar 31, 2009)

GATER IS RIGHT ON!!!Where do you stop or finish? Let Nature takes it course and move on...what a freak show!!


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## deke (Oct 5, 2004)

Duck said:


> I believe he is referring to Mr Bass (conflict of interest) and the tactics used by those opposed to the re-opening that KK referred to.


Thank you, that is what I was referring to.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

Sugar Jay said:


> I am no expert on anything, but I have fished Cedar when it was open and I have a lot of great memories from it, and some of my best fish, from trout to reds to shark. I can tell you since it has closed I have moved further and further from fishing that area to heading to the Corpus area. I have that option driving in from San Antonio, people that live there do not. But I generate business from the gas I use to the hotel I sleep in, to the bait I purchase, to the restaurante I eat at (maybe I am the reason Chili's closed down). It all equates to money in the end so to say it doesn't have a ripple effect on many peoples lives, your only kidding yourself.
> The other thing that bothers me in reading this post is that we are all fisherman on this forum and should support each other. While this pass does not effect everyone on here it does effect some. If someone told me we need San Luis Pass open because it will help their fishery, I am for it. Does it benefit me no, but I love to fish, and I respect my fellow humans that share the same passion for the sport as I do. If you are worried about tax payers money there are tons of other things you could argue their spending on besides something that helps the sport you love. Just my 2 cents


Very well said, sir! There is no legitimate argument against re-opening these historic passes. In the long run, the economic benefits to the immediate area and the state as a whole will far out weigh the initial costs of the project. A very experienced contracter is in place, all the hydrological studies have been done to assure the long term viability of the passes, and the environmental devastation that has resulted from the closing of these passes has been scientifically proven by experts in the scientific communities. The only obstacle is a very wealthy family that has the power to manipulate the state and federal agencies that have skillfully and bureaucratically blocked the efforts of SCBI and other interested groups and individuals. I have believed for some time now that this is an issue deserving national media attention. An historical expose, in chronological order detailing the chain of events and legal manueverings of the perpetrators behind this would be very embarrassing for several in high places. I also suspect illegalities have taken place, the placement of the sand dam at the mouth of Vinson Slough in particular. I am nothing more than a concerned recreational fisherman who knows right from wrong. But if I had the resources, I would assemble a legal team of the most skilled attorneys in the country and blow the roof off this whole thing! 'Nuff said.
Old Salty-still pluggin'


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

deke said:


> Thank you, that is what I was referring to.


Deke, my apologies to you were posted back earlier on this thread. Sorry I misunderstood. Old Salty


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Cedar Bayou*

I spent summers from 1961 on to present in POC, my uncle helped build Matagorda Airstrip and was thereafter a jib crane operator in POC back when it had 1000 residents - Carla took him out, lost everything he worked for. Carla also started the demise of Cedar Bayou -- it washed over the grass beds and took out long rooted vegatation, it increased the size of Vinson slough though -- I spent thousands of hours on the west end of Matagorda Island camping and fishing. I can't count the thousands of reds/trout we took wading the backside of the bayou towrds the airstrip as well as beachside over the years - if just for nothing else than to see a historic pass reopened this project needs to go forward -- I am no scientist but it doesn't take one to see that a better water exchange in Mesquite bay will help the entire San Antonio bay system. The second dredge killed Vinson Slough -- not the owners of the land, they just then compounded the closure by what they have done since.

You would think in three years of work and some millions spent on studying this to death it would have been done by now -- lots of finger pointing going around and little light in all the heat. I do see a pattern though and it deals with the Federal Goobermints involvement, way more so than the Bass conspiracy theorists --

It has become all too common to point fingers at the wealthy and try to dumb em down to the have-nots level in this country -- its called socilism , and I want no part of it, I am one of the have nots ,but not so stupid as to try and tear down those who provide jobs for much of this country,

I think the project will finally go forward when someone has the clarity to ask the owners what they want done on their side of the property equation -


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## fishsmart (Dec 5, 2004)

Check out the bridges and other things they want that was never part of the original status of the land involved.

Charles


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

So? You build what they want to get what you want -- I do it all the time as a landman - heck we rebuild entire fences, put in cattle guards, gravel roads, dig ponds , build barns etc- whatever it takes to purchase ROW or get the job done -- you don't hold up economic development or clean bays just because you are pixxed at the owners -- thats what I am saying -- make it right for the owners and this project will quit stalling out, instead of an ADVERSARY become a partner.

Its that stiff rednecked po boy against the rich guy attitude that has been the bane of this all along (with the Feds as the final fark -up)

But they blocked Vinson slough , but they are rich, but they have the politicians in their pocket but,but,but -- ain't never gonna get done with that kind of approach.

THEY OWN ONE SIDE OF THIS PROJECT LIKE IT OR NOT -- deal with it !!!!


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

TrueblueTexican said:


> So? You build what they want to get what you want -- I do it all the time as a landman - heck we rebuild entire fences, put in cattle guards, gravel roads, dig ponds , build barns etc- whatever it takes to purchase ROW or get the job done -- you don't hold up economic development or clean bays just because you are pixxed at the owners -- thats what I am saying -- make it right for the owners and this project will quit stalling out, instead of an ADVERSARY become a partner.
> 
> Its that stiff rednecked po boy against the rich guy attitude that has been the bane of this all along (with the Feds as the final fark -up)
> 
> ...


Trueblue, they do not own one side of the project. They own none of CB/VS. In reality, they should not have any say so whatsoever. But you can research the documentation and find that the agencies involved have consistently referenced "the landowners and their concerns". The landowner does not want the passes opened period. They are responsible for their own reputation.


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## Texas Jeweler (Nov 6, 2007)

After the storm tides in July, where 3 foot over the normal high, does anyone know if any past of Cedar Bayou opened back up?

I regret not spending time and fuel to go check it out myself. 

I have re-read this thread with interest and the one thing I am sure of, there is way to much fussing and not enough co-operation going on about this.

I believe the major obstacle in re-opening this water way is FUNDING!


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*St Jo land boundary as described in deed*

From way back (if memory serves me correct) I had to read the deed in the courthouse which describes St Jo to the high tide line -- if a survey went out and resurveyed to take into account sand loss, elevation and sand gain, most the banks bordering the south shores Vinson and Cedar Bayou would be above mean high tide stands - coastal property lines vary according to year to account for land loss or gain.

So I don't see a valid point about ownership - my point being WHO CARES -- just work with the property owner,

It wouldn't be any different if I or you were owner

A hypothetical -- I come to you and tell you (I don't ask) that I am condemning your home( which you have lived in for fourty years) because you are in a proposed ROW - what are ya gonna do? Right -you are hiring a lawyer

I come to you and tell you a proposed public utility is bringing a 32" natural gas line thru your property , but I work with you on valuation, and placement of the easement, you get what you want I get what I want -- which approach do you want? --

No difference here.

I don't expect to see this pass reopened in my lifetime because folks have too many blinders on.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*TPWD Article from eight years ago*

Cedar Bayou is a narrow pass between the north end of San Jose Island and the south end of Matagorda Island. Its importance is far greater than its size indicates.
"The Texas Coast is unique in that it has barrier islands that close off bays from the Gulf," explains Ed Hegen, regional director of Texas Parks and Wildlife Department's Region 2 coastal fisheries division. "All the bays along the lower Texas Coast have or have had at one time a connection to the Gulf."
"The passes are critical to fisheries of all kinds," adds Larry McKinney, senior director for aquatic resources for TPWD. "The mixing of fresh water from river inflows with sea water entering the bays and estuaries through the passes creates differences in salinity levels that are necessary for completion of the life cycle of 90 percent of our recreational and commercially important fish. If you put a cork in the bottle and the developing fish can't get into and out of the bays, they can't complete their life cycle."
All along the Texas Coast, natural passes that facilitate the mixing of Gulf waters with freshwater inflows from rivers have closed for a variety of reasons. Cedar Bayou has closed and reopened in the past and appears to be in danger of closing again. A controversy is looming over whether the pass should be dredged to keep it open, or whether nature should be allowed to take its course.
Part of the problem is that nature no longer can take the course it followed for centuries. "Several factors have led to the closing of fish passes all along our barrier islands," says McKinney. "In recent years we have had diminished inflows from rivers, and the construction of the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway and dredging and deepening of harbors and channels to harbors have created more places for water to escape from the bays, reducing the hydrological pressure that used to force water through the passes and keep them open."
The answer seems simple: Dredge the channels to keep them open. But dredging is expensive and creates other issues, such as who pays, who benefits, where spoil is dumped and who compensates landowners if their land is eroded away as a result of the dredging. And dredging is only a temporary solution. "When you dredge, you create a deep hole in a shallow nearshore area, and the most likely place for sand carried by currents to settle is in that deep hole," says Hegen. "Maintained passes have to be dredged almost constantly to keep them open."
Human alteration of the hydrology of the coast means the passes no longer play as big a role as they once did, says Rollin McRae, wetlands conservation program leader for TPWD. "Reduced freshwater inflow means there is less freshwater in proportion to saltwater, and we may not need so many passes to bring in sea water," he points out.
Hegen agrees the issue of whether to dredge Cedar Bayou is not clearcut. "Data from our 25-year monitoring program indicate the bays are in good, healthy condition right now coast-wide," he says. "There is still a salinity gradient between the Gulf and the bays, and that maintains itself through the passes. But there is also an economic issue. Estimates are it will cost about $800,000 to dredge Cedar Bayou. From where will that money come? Will we continue to spend money to keep the pass open? If you are someone who wants to fish - and Cedar Bayou is a fantastic fishing area - you'll be in favor of dredging. But we don't know how the economic impacts and benefits of dredging balance out against the costs. We need to have all the interested partners involved - the Corps of Engineers, county governments, fishers - and make our decision based on the balance of those facts."
"Artificial maintenance of Cedar Bayou will be very expensive and long-term," says McKinney. "We need better cost-benefit data before we can tell if dredging is a good idea."


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## chugger (Jul 12, 2009)

Please provide the source for this article .


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## cruss (Aug 31, 2005)

*bays*

the health of the bays may be good now because of the rains over the last eight months but what about the previous two years where the salinity was at least seven times more than normal due to the drought which was the worst in texas. All the oysters died, very few shrimp and the crabs are dissappearing. Also, not to mention how bad the trout fishing was last year it was like the dead sea. I'm not saying this pass is the only answer but it has to help in keeping salinities consistent. If they would dredge the channel properly it would maintain itself.


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## cruss (Aug 31, 2005)

also, If we can pay Imans to tour the middle east to raise funds for a mosque near ground zero, 800k would be money well spent on cb.


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## Jim Martin (Jun 3, 2009)

chugger said:


> Please provide the source for this article .


July 2002 Texas Parks and Wildlife Magazine by Larry D. Hodge.


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## Texas Jeweler (Nov 6, 2007)

cruss said:


> the health of the bays may be good now because of the rains over the last eight months but what about the previous two years where the salinity was at least seven times more than normal due to the drought which was the worst in texas. All the oysters died, very few shrimp and the crabs are dissappearing. Also, not to mention how bad the trout fishing was last year it was like the dead sea. I'm not saying this pass is the only answer but it has to help in keeping salinities consistent. If they would dredge the channel properly it would maintain itself.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Could you please express your opinion about Baffin Bay, which is super high salinity and the production of trophy trout!?


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*I can tell ya about the specks*

Ten thousand boats and tournies every **** weekend -

Mesquite and Copano constantly dredged by bay shrimpers - need I say more? No sea grass for juvenile fish production -- heck the bays are vacuumed cleaned every weekend JMHO.


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## chugger (Jul 12, 2009)

Jim Martin said:


> July 2002 Texas Parks and Wildlife Magazine by Larry D. Hodge.


Thanks for the help.
Great article along with others in that special "Water" issue.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

Jim Martin said:


> July 2002 Texas Parks and Wildlife Magazine by Larry D. Hodge.


You said it. That was 8 years ago. Today, even TPWD acknowledges the weakness of the fishery. Don't forget, Bass family member was chairman of board for TPWD.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

Texas Jeweler said:


> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> Could you please express your opinion about Baffin Bay, which is super high salinity and the production of trophy trout!?


Scientists have shown that there are slightly different genetic markers for trout in that area. Hence, they thrive in that environment.


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*CB and VS*

TrueBlue I was looking at your last post about the lack of shrimp in copano and musquite bays because of shrimpers. If I'm not mistaken both of those bays are off limits to shrimping and are considered Nursery Areas. If I'm not mistaken this was done because of the lack of shrimp (probable due to lack of water flow). Proper water flow through Cedar and Vension Slough would correct that. Just saying...


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Old Salty*

Still can't drop the Bass thing can you! Very interesting article Salty, maybe you should read it a few more times so it can sink in. That pass has nothing to do with the Trout population in that area, so move on to something else. By the way you still never answered my two questions.









Gater


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## goosekillr (Jul 11, 2007)

Gater. I find it interesting that you know so much about our bay system while you are in tiki island. After spending well over a hundred days a year on this bay system for more than the last decade, cedar bayou has a huge impact. There was a period after the dredging in 95 that the bayou closed for a couple of years. There was a noticable drop in aquatic life in the mesquite bay system during that time. It was opened back up about 8 or 9 years ago by a small hurricane that came in at port o connor. It stayed open for a couple of years and has been closed ever since. During that couple of years mesquite came back to life. Now with the extended closure the decline in fishing, crabing, ext. has extended well beyond mesquite bay. Carlos, aryes, aransas, and copano have all dropped off in production since this time. I'm not saying there are not fish, but the differance is noticeable. There are other factors at play like more recreational fishing pressure, but not enough to account for the dramatic decrease in productivity. Just saying I don't care what you read or believe, unless you have first hand knowledge of whats going on here keep your negative thoughts to yourself.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Goosekillr*



goosekillr said:


> Gater. I find it interesting that you know so much about our bay system while you are in tiki island. After spending well over a hundred days a year on this bay system for more than the last decade, cedar bayou has a huge impact. There was a period after the dredging in 95 that the bayou closed for a couple of years. There was a noticable drop in aquatic life in the mesquite bay system during that time. It was opened back up about 8 or 9 years ago by a small hurricane that came in at port o connor. It stayed open for a couple of years and has been closed ever since. During that couple of years mesquite came back to life. Now with the extended closure the decline in fishing, crabing, ext. has extended well beyond mesquite bay. Carlos, aryes, aransas, and copano have all dropped off in production since this time. I'm not saying there are not fish, but the differance is noticeable. There are other factors at play like more recreational fishing pressure, but not enough to account for the dramatic decrease in productivity. Just saying I don't care what you read or believe, unless you have first hand knowledge of whats going on here keep your negative thoughts to yourself.


Goosekillr do you actually think I never leave home. I have been fishing the Texas coast longer than you have been alive so I don't need you to tell me to keep my negative thoughts to myself. Just because I don't live in POC, Seadrift, or Rockport does not mean I do not fish that area. Fishing pressure and the lack of freshwater inflow are your two biggest culprits on why that area is not what it once was. I am not sure why people don't want to look at that as two of the biggest factors. Instead of looking at the real causes they want to point fingers and blame the Bass family or whoever might be against it. Why should we spend a million dollars to dredge it, probably half of that a year to maintain it all to benefit a few that like to fish the area. There are plenty of projects along the coast that the money could be spent to benefit many more people. Eventually a storm will come along and open the pass for awhile and you can fish there all you want until it closes up again, which it will, just like if you dredge it.

Gater


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

gater said:


> Still can't drop the Bass thing can you! Very interesting article Salty, maybe you should read it a few more times so it can sink in. That pass has nothing to do with the Trout population in that area, so move on to something else. By the way you still never answered my two questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


gater doesn't know jack squat about CB/VS. He is simply a troll who likes to make a fool of himself.


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## specksorreds (Aug 24, 2005)

Gater,
Someone that has spent as much time on the water as you say you have, knows very well what Cedar Bayou brings to the Mesquite and surrounding bay systems. Absolutely fresh water is an important part to all of this and I've felt that for years, but bottom line, the Army Corps of Engineers closed Cedar Bayou during Ixtoc and never once has it been dredged out to it's original path along with Vinson's slough for whatever reason. This pass needs to be opened back up to its original path plain and simple. If it takes sitting all parties involved down at the table at one time, then the CORPS needs to step up and make it happen.

Ask James Fox, Jay Watkins, Lowell Odom, any of the long time guides or anyone that has spent a lot of time fishing this area what fishing is like when the pass is open and bringing fresh water in and out from the Gulf consistently. Two or three trips a year or every other year, whatever you've fished it, doesn't constitute "local" knowledge. I've fished this area consistently for 25 years and have seen first hand what happens when Cedar Bayou is flowing, it's some of the best fishing the state of Texas has to offer.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Those who have fished Cedar Bayou*

And actually saw what it WAS before Carla,(Albiet as a six year old kid) and before the Ixtoc closure know what we have lost. Carla piled up huge amounts of sand on the gulf side , it used to be a fairly deep cut that stretched off to the north off the beach, but at that time , there were few dams on the freshwater rivers coming into SAB, lots of fresh inflow and a whole lot more hydraulic pressure that kept the pass open,

WE all of us have had a hand in the demise of Cedar Bayou -- we have built huge channels out to the gulf on each end of Matagorda, Greens cut sands in, Pass Cavallo used to be thirty to fifty feet deep, not much water exchange there now - I look for Pass Cavallo to close given the rate it is sanding in -

Aransas Pass and The Jetties at POC are carrying the bulk of tidal flow now and are scouring out deeper every year , heck I look to start catching Red Snapper at the jetties soon --

IF this dredge ever gets off the ground, doing half measures (like the last two dredges) and the pass will sand in AGAIN - we have a serious lack of freshwater inflows to our ENTIRE bay system now -- Port Mansfield sanded in and was just redredged - the metromesses north are sucking up HUGE amounts of freshwater - heck the Colorado, Brazos, Guadalupe etc are now almost dry holes like the Rio Grande in summer now.

Times have changed -- the old gray mare ain't what she used to be - and if this proposed dredge does not take into account the hydrological conditions as they exist TODAY - our kids will be fussin and discussin this again in fifteen years --

I don't see where just moving out the sand is gonna get the job done for more than seven years or so -- we are gonna go back with this dredge and do it half assed again for a short term benefit UNLESS there is maintenance money to redredge on even years in the future.

I want more than anything to see this pass open, its a piece of MY history , near and dear to me, its a great fishing hole, it helps water exchange in Mesquite and SAB, AND if we get this RIGHT this time maybe my grandkids will also enjoy it.

IF we are to bring suit to get this done it should be against the State and the Feds as a restoration project -- there are plenty of aerials from the early fifties and sixties that show what the pass WAS - they should be measured against the pass after Ixtoc and our goobermint should be REQUIRED to restore the pass to the original condition before artificial corps closure - as far as St Jo ownership -- the owners DO gain land according to coastal boundary rules for all land above the mean high tide stand -- that will be a sticking point in restoration -- the deed describes St Jo and total acreage and thats what should be honored.

Now back to the pipeline, cya.

I wish I could be at the meeting Sept 16 - but bidness has got me far afoot for next month -- I hope someone who goes can bring back a good report.


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

thank you all for your dialogue on this topic. We can respectively disagree and that is ok. I really wanted to keep this topic on the front burner because by now all of ya'll know where I am coming from. God blessed you and us with all of the opportunity to live in this great State of Texas and I am proud of that. Lets try not get all PO'd at each other (like our government has) and find a reasonable answer to this problem. Thank you all for joining in. Its up to us to find the answer. Our kids will thank us for that. Gods speed!


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Driftwoodfisher*



driftwoodfisher said:


> thank you all for your dialogue on this topic. We can respectively disagree and that is ok. I really wanted to keep this topic on the front burner because by now all of ya'll know where I am coming from. God blessed you and us with all of the opportunity to live in this great State of Texas and I am proud of that. Lets try not get all PO'd at each other (like our government has) and find a reasonable answer to this problem. Thank you all for joining in. Its up to us to find the answer. Our kids will thank us for that. Gods speed!


Driftwoodfisher I agree, we will never agree as a group and there is nothing wrong with that. I have stated my opinions on the opening of Cedar Bayou mainly to let the people that frequent this site and fish that area that there is always another side to any issue and you have to look at that open minded. I would never show up to a public hearing and voice my concerns and my opinion on Cedar Bayou, as I think our State and Federal Goverment will do what's in the best interest of that part of the Coast. I feel that there are more con's than pros on this subject and really my point of chiming in here is to make everyone aware of that. Over the past twelve years, the individuals and organizations that have been fighting this have led many a stray by not always presenting the facts. In a nutshell, I hate to say it, but they have been their own worst enemy.

It appears that the Feds are in charge right now and for the ones wanting the pass open that can not be a good thing.









Gater


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

gater said:


> Driftwoodfisher I agree, we will never agree as a group and there is nothing wrong with that. I have stated my opinions on the opening of Cedar Bayou mainly to let the people that frequent this site and fish that area that there is always another side to any issue and you have to look at that open minded. I would never show up to a public hearing and voice my concerns and my opinion on Cedar Bayou, as I think our State and Federal Goverment will do what's in the best interest of that part of the Coast. I feel that there are more con's than pros on this subject and really my point of chiming in here is to make everyone aware of that. Over the past twelve years, the individuals and organizations that have been fighting this have led many a stray by not always presenting the facts. In a nutshell, I hate to say it, but they have been their own worst enemy.
> 
> It appears that the Feds are in charge right now and for the ones wanting the pass open that can not be a good thing.
> 
> ...


gater, you really should review your posts and think just a little before you click to submit reply. More cons than pros on this subject? State and federal gov't.will do what's best? Just exactly what is your malfunction? The only one trying to lead anyone astray here is you. And to think that you would focus your longest diatribe of misinformation toward an eleven year old child is despicable. In "gaterworld" everyone is wrong. That is everyone except the one and only gater.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

Old Salty said:


> gater, you really should review your posts and think just a little before you click to submit reply. More cons than pros on this subject? State and federal gov't.will do what's best? Just exactly what is your malfunction? The only one trying to lead anyone astray here is you. And to think that you would focus your longest diatribe of misinformation toward an eleven year old child is despicable. In "gaterworld" everyone is wrong. That is everyone except the one and only gater.


*Federal Court with the years of studies is exactly where this issue needs to be ironed out. I was with our Attorney yesterday. We will not fold on this one as we are moving all our chips in on this hand which is a royal flush.

The press will have hell whitewashing this train wreck as they have in the past. I can't be bought. I want the passes restored according to the preferred option of 300 feet wide on both passes. The 500,000.00 was well worth every dime to insure a proper restoration.

TPWD will have egg on their face along with the Bass Family once the cold hard facts hit the Federal Courtroom. The seven Agencies who have caused delays will also be in the fray. Key employees will be facing a personal subpoena. The lying will come to a screeching halt. 

We may file a separate case to pursue criminal charges in Federal Court. Enough is enough. I am putting together a list of defendants for both cases. 

Since the damages are many times the EXXON Valdez I feel confident the National Press will cover the issue. *

Salty, you read that, there is plenty more....twelve years of stupid comments, threats and promises from the folks trying to get that pass open. Yea, your right, I'm the one with the malfunction.

If people could go back and read the comments that have been posted here and a couple of other boards over the past 12 years from the RFA chairman and the President of SCBI they would see the real reason why Cedar Bayou is still closed. If I were the Corps of Engineers I would not issue either one of those groups a permit to build a sand castle.











"The one and only" Gater


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

"gaterworld" aka "gaterland"-Definition: An imaginary state of mind (sometimes hallucinatory) that exists only in the mind of an individual who calls himself gater. A psychologically problematic condition for which there is no known cure. Professionals in the field of psychology have been baffled due to the unique manner by which this condition manifests itself in the psyche of this individual. So far, there seems to be only one victim of this illness and officials at CDC are cautiously optimistic that the disease will not spread to the general public.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Some good recent aerials from 2009-2010*

http://texascoastgeology.com/passes/cedarbayou.html

As you can see the delta fan from washover continues to INCREASE St. Joe -

Dredging without reinforcement of the cut will only result in a larger delta and continued increased sanding.

Think I saw my boat down there in the 1997 Pic : ^).

Need an aerial from 1960 before Carla piled up all that sand on the beach side - it was a pretty big pass then.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Dr Watson*

Should be the EXPERT witness on any work involving Cedar Bayou - maybe I missed his testimony in past proceedings, but he is THE MAN when it comes to hydrology, ecology, and sand movement on Texas barrier islands.

Fellas we don't need to get in pixxing contests on this issue

As seargent Friday said

"Just the facts mam, just the facts"


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

TrueblueTexican said:


> Kris I know a few in Bass Family, like most uberwealthy families they don't always know whats may be going on with their synchophants -- heck I was fishin Cedar Bayou in 1988 when Perry Bass and Sid Bass were still a movers and shakers - was down there one day when a beach plane lands and out hops Sid and GW Bush for a day of surf fishin - I know the Bass family has done as much or MORE for Texas Saltwater fisheries in way of money and donations to projects than has any wealthy family in Texas. Not real sure what threats may have been made to you or by whom (as in vested interests) but I don't think Sid would have used threats, he is so well connected he wouldn't ever have to - can't say much for the nuts that fell from the tree though - Sid you could/can sit down an talk to -- from the looks of things the County has the funding and grants now to get Cedar Bayou re-opened, I for one sincerely hopes this comes to fruition -- I spent thousands of hours on that slough from the early seventies till it sanded in for good -- all the prior dredging was a waste of money as the channel was not dredged out to the gulf , nor re-inforced to keep the channel open - I really think that maybe some of the kids have bought into the environmental crapola put forth by the tree hugger study that was done prior to the last effort to- reopen the slough - maybe some opposition in that area, but I wouldn't think Sid Bass was behind it.
> 
> For the record Sid Richardson who was oil partner with Perry Bass - purchased 150,000 acres of the island in 1936 - Sid Richardson Bass is one of the several heirs who have an interest in the island -- Sid Richardson maintained a home on the island and dies there in the late fifties
> 
> I can see though why the current iteration of the Bass family might want to keep it closed due to the enormous amount of Trash some beer drinkin slobs used to leave behind.


Glade you had a good day fishing with the bass bunch this weekend. Loosing a big fish is not much fun (just like cedar bayou is lost). Those sharks are every where. Please be careful.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

A few thoughts on the Bayou

Who will do bi- annual maintenance dredging?
An off shore delta will cause it to sand in FASTER
Who is going to blow up Coleto Creek and Canyon dam?
Without at least a North Jetty barrier -- its gonna be a dry hole in four years again without bi annual dredging - there just isn't enough tidal flow

Aransas and Matagorda ship channels permanently altered Cedar Bayou's ability to remain open -- 

Thats the truth of the matter like it or not -- I don't like it anymore than the rest of the old salts do -- 

It is what it is.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

TrueblueTexican said:


> A few thoughts on the Bayou
> 
> Who will do bi- annual maintenance dredging?
> An off shore delta will cause it to sand in FASTER
> ...


Trueblue, now you are showing your "truecolors". Sounds like you don't want to see those passes opened period. Those passes were perfectly viable until the mid '70s when they were purposely closed. Your "facts" don't match what the experts have determined. The 2 previous attempts to reopen did not include the reopening of VS, and that is why they failed. SCBI has the contracter, the engineering studies have been completed, the plan is in place, all systems are "go" except the launch order is being held hostage by self serving forces who have no interest in the well being of our bay systems. Besides all that, who does the dredging at East Cut near PM when necessary?
Old Salty-still pluggin'


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

Old Salty -- I am a realist -- I want the pass open as much as anyone -if it gets done great -- I made a LOT of money off the pass when it WAS open -- 

Again I will state -- it won't STAY open without a permanent jetty -- no matter how much people would WISH otherwise -

I place the "blame" if there is any on the Feds -- and to the conditions as they exist today, not Ixtoc, not the owners - plain and simply stated it is a lack of hydrology -- 

So what would you attribute sanding in of Pass Cavallo -- the Bass Family? 

We pulled the plug with port Aransas and Matagorda ship channels

Did you bother to look at historic Aerials that were provided on this thread? Vinsons was closing up long before Ixtoc due to overwash fan and before the LAST spoil was piled in front of it -- who takes blame there?

I believe the PM dredge was done thru a county cooperative operation -- it too will continue to sand it - predictions are for that entire end of the bay to completely sand in with fifteen more years.


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## Coast Rider (Aug 29, 2010)

I don't think anyone trust the governement to do what is right here. Court is the only solution. The Bass Family will do what is in their best interest not Texas or the rec/guide fisherman. Don't forget, alway run when you here these words "I'm from the gov and I'm here to help"


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## Reef Dawg (Dec 20, 2004)

It's just too bad that the Basstidges have the Gubermint officials bought and paid for and in their pockets. For several years Cedar stayed open without any help, until the "sand bridge" was reinforced. Besides the Basstidges don't own, or have under lease, the land between Vinson's and Cedar. If you look on Google Earth that land shows up as Ballou island.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Old Salty*



Old Salty said:


> Trueblue, now you are showing your "truecolors". Sounds like you don't want to see those passes opened period. Those passes were perfectly viable until the mid '70s when they were purposely closed. Your "facts" don't match what the experts have determined. The 2 previous attempts to reopen did not include the reopening of VS, and that is why they failed. SCBI has the contracter, the engineering studies have been completed, the plan is in place, all systems are "go" except the launch order is being held hostage by self serving forces who have no interest in the well being of our bay systems. Besides all that, who does the dredging at East Cut near PM when necessary?
> Old Salty-still pluggin'


Speaking of not having the facts! Explain to me how viable CB was prior to the late 70's (not mid 70's, bad fact). Salty I am still wondering about the thousands of poor souls this pass being close has effected. You still never explained that one even though I know there is know good explaination, just thought I would ask again.

Just in case you were not aware, all systems are not go. You don't have a permit and I'm really not sure if you even have funding.

Gater


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

TrueblueTexican said:


> Old Salty -- I am a realist -- I want the pass open as much as anyone -if it gets done great -- I made a LOT of money off the pass when it WAS open --
> 
> Again I will state -- it won't STAY open without a permanent jetty -- no matter how much people would WISH otherwise -
> 
> ...


The latest studies re: Pass Cavallo have stated that it is not expected to close further. The PM dredge was done because it was necessary. And if necessary it will be done time and again. It's all about the well being of the bay system and the people. CB/VS and the bay systems and people in that area deserve the same consideration. Mouth of San Bernard and mouth of Colorado have also been dredged. And Colorado being dredged again. Just because you think jetties are necessary at CB/VS does not mean current plans should be scrapped. As a matter of fact, it does not matter what it takes, to stonewall the project for any reason is a travesty and it's been taking place for a long time. And yes, "the royal family" you mention is to blame for the disaster at CB/VS. You say you made a lot of money at CB/VS, I assume you must be a guide. Why in the world would you want to throw more obstacles in the way? Don't you think there are enough already?


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

About the only obstacles I see are misinformation -- USED to be a guide - too old and lazy now.

I have at least been factual with photos in time lapse to show where we were and where we ARE.

Once again to be clear , I want to see it open -- but I will not provide theories, as to why it hasn't been done yet 

Ya'll got the ax to grind not me. 

You might be suprised if you would entertain getting factual information from Dr. Watson - he lives at Port Aransas and has been studying Cedar Bayou for decades.

I asked a real authority about how it could be kept open -- as his reply was in a private e-mail I won't post it here -suffice it to say I didn't like the answer , but I already had an idea what the reply would be.


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## Cat's Meow (Sep 5, 2006)

*Cedar Bayou*

Could someone write up a concise, factual history of Cedar Bayou--start it as a new thread so we can find it. There's an awful lot of infor in this CB thread, but most of it is opinion.


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## chugger (Jul 12, 2009)

TrueBlue,
How about just posting the jest of the solution to keep CB open, and the experts credentials.


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## Coast Rider (Aug 29, 2010)

The solution is a jetty outward (I think Old Salty said it as well), everthing else is B.S....thats the only way to keep it open forever. The reason it has not happen is because of the golden rule. The Bass Family has the gold and they are making the rules. Its really that simply, the rest of this is coffee house smoke filled ****. Its really is that simple !


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*CB Jetties*



Coast Rider said:


> The solution is a jetty outward (I think Old Salty said it as well), everthing else is B.S....thats the only way to keep it open forever. The reason it has not happen is because of the golden rule. The Bass Family has the gold and they are making the rules. Its really that simply, the rest of this is coffee house smoke filled ****. Its really is that simple !


Not sure why folks can't understand this....jetties will not keep Cedar Bayou open. There is just not enough flow and there is not much you can do about it. The amount of water the Matagorda and Port A jetties move is just too much. You can't change the hydraulics with out closing one of those two. Now if you ran the jetties out to the East Breaks and dredge the entrance to about 75 feet you might get 20 years out of them before they needed dredging again







. We have the same issue in Galveston with Rollover, like it or not there is just not enough flow to naturaly keep it open. A hurricane will gouge CB out enough were there is flow to the gulf but not passable by boat and it would soon silt back in.

Bottom line is most people know this is true but just don't want to believe it. They would rather blame the Bass family just because they happen to own the land where the pass is located. The expense of man keeping this pass open just does not make sense. The State is going to close Rollover and it see's 20X the amount of fishermen CB would see in a year because it accessable by land.

Gater :spineyes:


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Hydraulics of the area*

Prevailing SE onshore wind 70% of the time - a jacks style jetty on the NORTH side would keep the foreground building up due to onshore current and what little current on tide changes there may be(similar to PM jetties -- it would build up the south end of Matagorda with a sand area north of the channel and prevent sanding in SO fast -- and I agree it will sand up again eventually - we have good models all along the lower coast for that - the expert opinion is that regardless of what construction is used it will require maintenance dredging to keep it open - whats it WORTH?

Emily did more to open it in recent history than man has done

I would like to see it done, historically, economics? What is a nursery worth to the area? In its heyday (12-18 miles from any port) not many took the time to get there (their loss) - Anytime there is a channel and flow you will have bait and fish that use it back and forth from gulf to bay, so there is benefit there -

TPWD has weighed in on this with several different opinions depending on who you ask -- I see the benefit in drought years as it helps balance bay salinities (with the loss of freshwater inflow) --

I wish I could turn back the clock -- it just ain't gonna happen -- I would say that had IKE moved a little farther south the folks in Gilchrist would be happy, and after POC went under and Copano went under - perhaps in future years Cedar Bayou would be open again -- careful what you wish for.


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## deke (Oct 5, 2004)

gater said:


> Not sure why folks can't understand this....jetties will not keep Cedar Bayou open. There is just not enough flow and there is not much you can do about it. The amount of water the Matagorda and Port A jetties move is just too much. You can't change the hydraulics with out closing one of those two.
> 
> Gater :spineyes:


I have trouble believing that. The ocean will go where ever there is an opening and mother nature and the tides will take care of the rest. Saying that islike saying if you opened a pass near where Offats is on Galveston island then San Louis Pass would not have enough water coming through it? Don't think it works that way, yeah maybe the the way the tides rise and fall in West Bay, but who cares about that.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

Good grief! I break away for just a few hours and now there is so much disinformation posted I don't know where to start. First of all, there is no plan for any jetty whatsoever as there is no need for such. If the agencies and the power brokers behind them will step out of the way, simply issue the permit allowing the dredging to be done from the inside out (instead of their last tactic requiring dredging from the gulf side) the project will move forward. The studies have shown that if both passes are opened properly, they will remain viable. There is a world of accurate information on the subject at texasflats.net forum: save cedar bayou. If you want to pontificate your own viewpoints, that's fine. But if you want the facts from the scientific and engineering communities, do your research. The overwhelming consensus confirms the damage done to the ecosystem, the viability of the project as proposed by SCBI, and the necessity to restore these vital and historical passes. Those of you who oppose are becoming very transparent. Obviously, some motive is behind this insistence to derail the project. If not, why bother to read or post?
Old Salty-still pluggin'


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## Coast Rider (Aug 29, 2010)

We just gave millions if not billions of dollars to Hati and we can't dredge a bayou every 20 years, come on !!!.......Lets get real about this and do the right thing for Texas not the feds, political reason, personal reasons, etc. You can't tell me this can't be done, we put a man on the moon for crying out loud. Oh yeah, that was done in TEXAS !....imagine that !


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

Coast Rider said:


> We just gave millions if not billions of dollars to Hati and we can't dredge a bayou every 20 years, come on !!!.......Lets get real about this and do the right thing for Texas not the feds, political reason, personal reasons, etc. You can't tell me this can't be done, we put a man on the moon for crying out loud. Oh yeah, that was done in TEXAS !....imagine that !


You said it brother! It does not take a rocket scientist to know right from wrong! All you naysayers need to go fly a kite!


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*cedar bayou*

Its been a while since we have talked about cedar bayou. So has anybody caught any fish in mesquite bay? I have been there three times lately and it's dead as ever. Old Salty, Gator, is the fishing getting any better? No way my friends. Just saying...


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

driftwoodfisher said:


> Its been a while since we have talked about cedar bayou. So has anybody caught any fish in mesquite bay? I have been there three times lately and it's dead as ever. Old Salty, Gator, is the fishing getting any better? No way my friends. Just saying...


You know it wasn't that long ago when we had even just a little water flow I had some great trips to Mesquite, Ayers, and nearby San Antonio Bay shoreline. But when she closed completely, it shut it down. That's pretty much dead water now. Gonna have to go further south. I read a post that Capt. Chris Martin wrote a while back saying his lodge no longer fishes that area because of the damage done. And of course he is only one of the many expert area guides who say the same thing. The obstacles being thrown in the way of the permit requests from SCBI by way of Aransas County have become laughable. There seems to be no end to the creative efforts by the "bigshots" to turn right and wrong upside down. I still think some day it will attract national media attention and there are going to be many " bad guys exposed". Not gonna be pretty.


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## Im Headed South (Jun 28, 2006)

Yep no fish in Mesquite anymore! Just pass it by on you way to SAB. I must have missed that article by Chris as did a few of the guides that fish out the lodge lmao. 

Mike


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

No reds at all around the bayou anymore -- stay away the salt will corrode fiberglass.


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2009)

Aransas County Commissioners have earmarked 500k to get this funded. Talk has picked up since July. Here is the link. I suppose you gents could get involved and contact Burt Mills. Getting close????

http://www.caller.com/news/2010/jul/13/aransas-county-plans-to-use-500000-as-leverage/


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

Farley said:


> Aransas County Commissioners have earmarked 500k to get this funded. Talk has picked up since July. Here is the link. I suppose you gents could get involved and contact Burt Mills. Getting close????
> 
> http://www.caller.com/news/2010/jul/13/aransas-county-plans-to-use-500000-as-leverage/


Been a lot of water under the bridge since that article was written. Verbal promises were made, then promises broken. Officials speaking with forked tongues. Unreasonable demands by the COE. Power wealthy elite still calling the shots and making it near impossible to comply with permitting requirements. If you want to follow the long and winding road through the history of this farce, go to texasflats.net and find the Save Cedar Bayou forum. Warning: you may become nauseated as you unravel the lies and deceit that have been perpetrated against mother nature by the very agencies that are tasked to protect and enhance the health of our marine environment in that area.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

Im Headed South said:


> Yep no fish in Mesquite anymore! Just pass it by on you way to SAB. I must have missed that article by Chris as did a few of the guides that fish out the lodge lmao.
> 
> Mike


 Yeah, and I'm sure you've also missed out on the standard portion of normal God given common sense as well.


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## SolarScreenGuy (Aug 15, 2005)

TrueblueTexican said:


> No reds at all around the bayou anymore -- stay away the salt will corrode fiberglass.


And I see we have yet another genius who prefers a second rate fishery over what use to be one of the greatest.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

Its salt water -- there are fish there - no the old gray mare ain't what she used to be -- but she is as good as she can be - given current management -

Doen't take genius to figure that out 


Like I have maintained this will never GET done with the current crop of "thinkers"

I will be catchin fish there all next week cya on the water.


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## Tight Knot (Sep 8, 2004)

Anyone catch the meeting at the Paws and Taws last night? Jerry Patterson was the speaker. I forgot all about it.
Tight Knot


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## Reef Dawg (Dec 20, 2004)

Fishing in Mesquite has died along with the grass and everything else. I was down there over Labor day and you're lucky if you catch ONE fish a day down there now as opposed to loading the cooler when Cedar was open.


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## driftwoodfisher (Oct 4, 2005)

*Cedar Bayou and Vencent Slough*

Just wanted to bring this thread up again to remind all interested party's what has been said and not said. Thank you for your interest.


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