# neck sizing with full length die



## yep (Jul 25, 2006)

Going to neck size only with a full length resizer die, have any of you done it? How do I set the die for neck sizing only? Do i need to lube the cases as well?
Thanks


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## Doubless (Aug 22, 2005)

You can't really just "neck size" with a full length sizing die. What you CAN do is stay off the shoulder and do a partial length sizing. The way to best do this is to smoke the neck of a fired case and insert it into the sizer die a bit at a time, looking at where the smoke is removed to determine how far down the sizer is re-sizing the neck. Stop prior to the shoulder and you should be good. But it goes without saying that you have to back the die out of the press three or four turns prior to starting the re-sizing efforts, and slowly screw the die down, stopping before you get to the shoulder.

And yes, you have to use lube. Trying to do this without lubing the case will result in sticking the case; guaranteed.


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

If you shoot a bolt action rifle, I strongly suggest you to forget trying to neck size with a full length die. 
Buy a collet die from Lee. It is about $20 and it is worth every penny. It truly neck sizes ONLY and the beauty of it is you DO NOT HAVE TO LUBE. Just not having to lube and clean off that lube alone is worth the $20 you spend.
Using the FL die to mimic neck sizing does not produce a fire formed case. 

I purchase a Lee Collet die for every caliber of bolt guns I reload for after I first tried out with the .303 British cases. I got 6 to 8 firings out of each case using that Lee die versus 2 out of FL die.


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## andre3k (Dec 3, 2012)

I agree with the previous poster. Don't try to rig up the FL die to neck size when you can get a lee collet which is a really good die if you get a decent one. You can even order undersize mandrels from lee if you want to change the neck tension.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

As above....


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

I totally disagree with above two threads. You CAN neck size with fl dies by adjusting fl die to "resize" neck to just above or at shoulder angle - if you start with fl very high and screw it down 1/4-1/2 turn each press , you can watch the progression of the resized area work closer to the shoulder . It still allows for your brass to stay in chamber dimensions of you gun by not pushing shoulder back down.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Just set the FL die to push the shoulder back to the min. headspace for the rifle. Undersized brass gets only neck sizing, oversized brass gets a kiss on the shoulder. 

Use max. chamber size minus 1/1000. 

Less than ideal, but it can be made to work. The primary downside is that you are over working the necks. The FL die sizes the neck down too much, and then the neck is opened back up by the button. So, the approach reduces brass life.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Question

When you set the FL die to work all the way down to the shoulder(re setting shoulder) arn't you at that point full length resizing at the same time ?


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

CHARLIE said:


> Question
> 
> When you set the FL die to work all the way down to the shoulder(re setting shoulder) arn't you at that point full length resizing at the same time ?


If you're not, you're probably only a few thousandths away from it.
I fl size all my rounds and set the die up to bump the should back about .002 max. I also remove the expander buttons from the dies since I'm using bushing dies.


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## andre3k (Dec 3, 2012)

For the hunting bolt guns and precision rigs I've tried every die brand out there. I've found that a redding type s FL bushing die and Lee Collet dies produced the best shooting, lowest runout ammo for my guns. I can usually get 3 - 4 firings from brass without having to deal with any lube with the collet dies. That alone is worth it for me.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

That's sort of a debate about definitions. Depending on the taper of the round, just kissing the shoulder does little or nothing to the "body" of the brass. 

A full length die, set up to resize to SAAMI minimum, will work the neck, push back the shoulder, and potentially work the body. Depending on how far you screw in the die into the press, the die can work just the neck, just the neck and shoulder, or all three. 

Again, that's a debate about definitions. I call resizing the shoulder in any manner full length resizing, and I use the term in contrast to neck sizing which only works the neck and does not touch the shoulder or body at all.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Ernest

Your almost in lawyer talk my man. When you run the case down (or up) to work the SHOULDER it should be also working the case otherwise your gonna crush the shoulder if you have to travel further with the entire case. Always visualized the last few thousandth of the process did the shoulder and case at about the same time. Probably wrong again. See if you can splain that to me. I understand the "partial neck" by not pushing case down to the shoulder but IMHO when you began to do the shoulder your also began to doing entire case.

Very interesting discussion I must say.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Charlie, I don't have a clue what you are trying to say or what you are asking. 

Yes, you can kiss the shoulder, not crush the body, and simply have the case "grow" either in length or in body diameter or a bit of both. Like I mentioned earlier, it depends on the taper of the case. Just like you can partially neck size a case, and not crush the rest of the neck or the body. 

Consider a case with a bunch of taper like the AK round. The base (web area) of the case has a diameter larger than the diameter of the case at the beginning of the shoulder. Because of the taper, the die is not in contact with much of the case body if you are just kissing the shoulder (and you are resizing to a final size larger than SAAMI min.) 

At the other extreme would be a case with zero body taper. Same diameter at the web as it is at the beginning of the shoulder. For that type of round, to kiss the shoulder with a FL die, you will have to work basically all of the body. 

What that has to do with this thread, I don't know. 

Yes, you can neck size with a FL die. Yes, you need to use lube.


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## Wado (May 15, 2011)

This is a gross exaggeration of a resizing attempt using bulged brass. The necks had been resized and the expander pulled through even though the press never made it to full stroke. I have no clue of the condition of the shoulder at this point and no way to measure it if I still had the brass.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Ernest

Makes sense tapered case vs flat case. You can neck size (partially) with a FL die but I dont think totally. Total resizing neck would involve entire case (I think)).


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

Science, engineering and semantics aside, it costs about $30 for a neck sizing die. 

If you use the FL die to neck size, then you've added another variable to your reloading: The depth setting of your die. If you screw up a batch of shells and waste a trip to the range, your cost is way more than $30.

If the price of the tool is feasible, using the correct tool for the job will save you $ and


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

Ernest said:


> *That's sort of a debate about definitions. Depending on the taper of the round, just kissing the shoulder does little or nothing to the "body" of the brass. *
> 
> A full length die, set up to resize to SAAMI minimum, will work the neck, push back the shoulder, and potentially work the body. Depending on how far you screw in the die into the press, the die can work just the neck, just the neck and shoulder, or all three.
> 
> Again, that's a debate about definitions. I call resizing the shoulder in any manner full length resizing, and I use the term in contrast to neck sizing which only works the neck and does not touch the shoulder or body at all.


If that is the case, kissing the shoulder does little or nothing to the "body" of the brass, why do you recommend lubing the case?

You should be able to pull the case out of the die without any lube on its body.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I never checked but is the case sizing done in three different stages by the die or does it all happen at once ?


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Why lube? 

Lube is cheap, quick, and easy. 
Spring back/expansion rates vary, even among brass of the same head stamp. 
A stuck case case be a major pain in the backside.


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

I understand lube is cheap but that is not the question, Ernest. 

I just wonder if the body is not touched as you said, why bother with lubing at all? I'd think that even if you back the die off by 3 to 5 turns in order to size only the neck, the case body is still being sized back to factory specs and thus using FL die for neck sizing does not truly produce a neck-sized case. It produces a partially resized case as someone pointed out earlier. In another word if one wants to neck size, either get a neck sizer die or a Lee Collet die where case body is left fire formed to rifle chamber and only the neck is sized down.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

You are ignoring the spring back and the difficulty in measuring the actual die. 

We measure the output from the die. We don't directly measure the die as adjusted on the press. Instead, we can only measure the output: the brass as resized. 

With a variable spring back rate, a die adjusted perfectly is still going to produce some variance in the head space of the resized brass. Depending on the batch of brass, that variance can be considerable. Easily more than 3/1000 in some brands. 

You can observe the same thing just firing new factory brass in a weapon. Measure the headspace of the brass post firing, and it will vary even though it should be the same powder charge and it was fired in the same weapon. 

I'm also not talking about resizing to factory specs. Resizing to Saami grossly over works the brass and will shorten the life of the brass. Instead, I'm talking about resizing to a final dimension that is significantly larger than factory specs. So large, in fact, that if it was any larger, it would not chamber/bolt would not close. That large minus 1/1000's for bolt guns, minus 2 or 3/1000 for semi's.


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

Regardless of spring back or die dimensions. The point I am highlighting is an attempt to neck size brass with a FL die does change the dimensions of the FIRED case body. 
The neck size die or the Lee Collet die squeezes only the neck down to hold the bullet and leave the brass body alone (fire-formed to the chamber dimensions of the last rifle it was fired in).


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

IMHO the resizing does not take place in three steps it happens all at once, neck shoulder and case. Just think about it Ernest, it doesent size the neck first and then shoulder and then case. Be impossible. Springback is not the issue the question was can you neck size only with a FL die and not impact the rest of the case. . My answer would be maybe a small amouint but not the entire neck.


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## yep (Jul 25, 2006)

great advice, thanks everyone. I will just buy the neck sizer die, are the lee collet dies any better than say the rcbs?


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

The Lee collet die is better than the RCBS due to the design. It does not squeeze down the case neck by pushing it through a tunnel (neck of the sizer die) as the RCBS. It squeeze down the neck diameter by "fingers". That is the reason lubrication is not required.

The squeezing down the neck by pushing it through the die neck tunnel and then during retraction the sizer ball is pulled through would cause metal fatigue plus increasing case neck length, which requires trimming. With Collet die there is practically no case neck length increase with each sizing. 

You ought to buy the Lee Deluxe die set, which includes both FL sizer and Collet die (total of 3 dies). After several firing you'd use the FL sizer to knock the case shoulder back to factory dimensions to ensure smooth feeding. YOu will also use that FL sizer to resize brass fired in someone else's rifles and given to you.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

CHARLIE said:


> IMHO the resizing does not take place in three steps it happens all at once, neck shoulder and case. Just think about it Ernest, it doesent size the neck first and then shoulder and then case. Be impossible. Springback is not the issue the question was can you neck size only with a FL die and not impact the rest of the case. . My answer would be maybe a small amouint but not the entire neck.


I agree, Charlie. And, in trying to do so, you will then wind up with a partially resized casing. Which I am no fan of.
I FL resize all rounds. I measure the "headspace" (datum point on the shoulder to the case head) after evert 5th round just like I do when I'm charging casings in batch. It's a safety operation for me.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Again, you all are ignoring the taper of the case and the case growth from base to datum point. The tapered cylinder (the case body) has been elongated by firing.

Look, you can do this at home. Take a FL die, pull the expander button/decapping stem. Run the ram up with a fired case. Then, screw the FL die into the press until you feel just a bit of resistance. Lower the ram, and give the die a turn.

Now, run the case into the die. What is the result? The die has only worked the very mouth of the case. NOTHING ELSE HAS CHANGED!!!!!!!

Screw die in a bit more, and do it again. What you will observe is that the area of the neck resized moves toward the shoulder. NOTHING ELSE WILL HAVE CHANGED! The only portion of the brass that has been compressed/resized is the neck.

Unless and until the die is screwed into press far enough that the shoulder portion of the die contacts *and* changes the position of the shoulder on the brass, you are not resizing the body.

Welcome to 1940 and "poor boy neck sizing."

This is not controversial or subject to debate among reasonable people.

Lee collet dies have pluses and minuses. One minus is that instead of replacing bushings to change neck tension (like you would with a redding s die, for example), you have to change the mandrel. Plus, with a Lee collet dies, you still have to eventually do a FL resizing.


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## Wado (May 15, 2011)

Stand by for an important message.


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## Wado (May 15, 2011)

It works. I recommend lubricating the neck and it seems to push the shoulder down from the friction between the die and the brass, I apologize I didn't measure the length before I tried this. I ran it back in a little further and the length changed a half thousand's or so. I have a Federal premium brand new unfired .243 brass I am taking measurements from and here it is. OAL-2.038 Neck OD-.270 Neck ID-.229 This brass is straight out of the bag. The fired test brass after neck sizing measured OAL-2.048 Neck OD-.2615 Neck ID-.220 ( the expander button was removed ). The body of the brass is untouched as far as I can tell. If I had this at my friends machine shop in Rockport we could put the brass in his optical measuring machine and get dimensions and I would be a bit more thorough in my procedure. For what it's worth it will work in a pinch just lube the neck and polish the expander button and inside lube also. On a side note, Wilson neck sizing dies only size 3/16" of the length of the neck. I pushed this one almost to the shoulder.


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## Wado (May 15, 2011)

I reinstalled the de capper-expander stem and sized another one. It put the neck at the same ID as the new brass.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Are you serious? Of course it works. Any reloader worth his salt knows it works. 

Female mold, male piece inserted, female mold and male piece both tapered from base to shoulder. Anyone that has ever assembled a stack of Solo cups or traffic cones knows it works. Its elementary.


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

Wado, 
Did you have to lube the case body when you did this neck sizing?


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## Wado (May 15, 2011)

None on the body, with the de-capping rod out if it sticks you can punch it out. I did put some on the neck because, well just because. You normally don't lube there or at least I don't. If I was going to make this my method to neck size I would lightly lube with Unique inside and outside of the neck to keep stretching at a minimum. And it takes less effort.
I am not chunking rocks at anyone so look at the pictures of the bulged brass from the earlier post I made. This being probably the worst case scenario where you were trying to neck size only you would not have very good results and if this were brass fire formed in your weapon it's time for a new barrel. We learn something new every day now don't we? I have a bunch of neck sizing dies and honestly I hardly ever use them. And I do take everything seriously.

And the point of my other post was to prove this could be done ( I am on your side Ernest ) without setting up and showing it. If you don't lube the body and it starts sticking you are contacting the body with the die, I guarantee that, and you might stick but running dry insures you are not resizing. Make sense?


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Well Ernest I had to check it myself and darn it you are almost right. On a 5.56 once fired brass you can size between 3/4 and 7/8 of the neck before other things began to happen such as touching the case and shoulder. Its further than I expected. No I just eyeballed it and didnt break out my guage.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

If you will tweek your die settings, you can resize more of the case without moving the shoulder. As I indicated previously, its easiest to do with a case that has a bunch of taper. Like the AK round. Its tougher, but far from impossible, for cases without much taper. 

.223 is only about 23/1000 in diameter change when comparing base to shoulder/body junction. 7.62x39 is almost double that over a shorter body length. 

Finally, touching the shoulder or the body does not equal resizing. Resizing only occurs when you compress the brass beyond its ability to spring back to the original dimensions. If you touch it, but the shape does not change, its not resized. 

Again, you can test this out at home. Take a resized case, expand the neck on a mandrel, and then run it back thru the FL resizer. Result: the neck is resized, but the body and shoulder are unchanged. Touched, but unchanged in dimension. And, 100% of the neck will be resized. This result occurs because, while the die touches the shoulder, it does not do so with sufficient pressure to "permanently" change the position of the shoulder.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Ernest

You gotta splain it to me somehow if you full length resize the neck you do not impact shoulder or case. The die doesent just squeeze the case in it moves further down the case. 
As you move further down the case what happens to the shoulder or neck if it's already resized.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Focus on the taper. 

Think about stacking up Solo cups. They are tapered. Mouth far bigger around than base. 

Imagine you had two Solo cups. Turn them upside down, and then stack the two Solo cups. Assuming you held them perfectly centered, the two cups would not touch until one cup was actually resting on the other. 

Once they touch, there would be 100% contact between the exterior of the lower cup and the interior of the upper cup. If you hold the upper cup 1/1000 above the lower cup, there would be zero contact between the two cups. Meaning, the bottoms don't touch, the sides of the cups don't touch, and the rims don't touch. 

One cup is your die - its is being lowered onto the other cup - the body/shoulder portion of your brass. 

If you take a case that has been resized (assuming it is not work hardened and you got a good stroke on the press) and then resize it again without touching the adjustment of the die, the case should be the exact same size as it was before resizing the second time. The body and shoulder do not change. 

Like the Solo cups, we have 100% contact, but the shape of the brass does not change because the die is a perfect female mold of the case. 

Neck sizing with a FL die works the same way. You hold the die high enough in the press that the body portion of the die does not "resize" the body/shoulder. This is because the case taper prevents the die (which is held "too high" like the Solo cups) from making the sufficient contact with the body or shoulder to change the exterior dimensions.


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

I tried useing a fl die to necksize before and never had good results. Sounds like if ya just spend some time with it, it might work. I wonder what the runout doing it that way vs a true neck sizer would be. Something to do on a rainy day maybe.


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## yep (Jul 25, 2006)

great thread, learned more than I asked for. Have a couple of lee collet dies heading my way, looking forward to trying them. Put a muzzle brake on my 7 mag, so it is all kinds of fun to shoot now. First time to reload for a bolt gun so not FL resizing is new to me, best group I shot with reloads was 3 holes touching so I am curious to see if using the fire formed brass neck sized tightens the group up further.


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## Superman70 (Aug 13, 2014)

Give up Ernest. It works. Always has always will. All of my dies are set up with a smoked case. Set them so that the whole neck is sized plus a 1/8 to 1/4 turn in. The brass will last just as long because the body isnt growing at this point and you wont have to come back at some point and FL size. The only gun that I neck size only far is my straight varmint gun. All of my hunting guns get the other approach because I have never had a round fail to chamber when done this way.


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## woods (Dec 3, 2011)

IME, you can size about 3/4ths of the neck










with a full length die before it starts sizing the case body at the pressure ring close to the case head. When it starts sizing the case body it will squeeze the case body and balloon the shoulder forward. The amount will depend upon how high up on the case body you size and the dimensional differences between your case and the inside dimensions of your die.

If you have a way to measure on the datum point of your case with a tool such as the Hornady headspace gauge, you can measure it. If your case is fully fire formed, then you can feel the case get harder to chamber in your rifle. This is because you have ballooned the shoulder forward and caused a crush fit. Smaller calibers exhibit much less of a crush fit in the chamber because closing the bolt has much more comparative force from the bolt closure than the larger calibers.

Once you adjust the die down far enough to start sizing the case body and created the crush fit, your only choice is to continue adjusting downward far enough to push the shoulder back and relieve the crush fit.

Best method is to use the Lee Collet for neck sizing and the Redding Body Die to size the case body and push the shoulder back when needed.


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

yep said:


> great thread, learned more than I asked for. Have a couple of lee collet dies heading my way, looking forward to trying them. Put a muzzle brake on my 7 mag, so it is all kinds of fun to shoot now. First time to reload for a bolt gun so not FL resizing is new to me, best group I shot with reloads was 3 holes touching so I am curious to see if using the fire formed brass neck sized tightens the group up further.


It may not produce better groups but it sure will give you more reloads and less case trimming not to mention no lube required.


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## Superman70 (Aug 13, 2014)

Always use lube. Spit on it if you have to


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

You guys are arguing about things in a perfect world. It all depends on how large the fired brass is verses how small the sizing die is. The case taper helps but you are going to size the case some if you do the full neck. The only way this could be guaranteed to size the neck only is if the case was a 45 degree taper which I have never seen. If you run a full length sizing die far enough to full size the neck it is going to somewhat size the case. Smoke a whole case and try it. You will have rub marks on the case all the way around. The only way it wouldnt is if the fired brass was the same or smaller size than the die. The taper helps but doesnt prevent all of it.


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

All I know is that trying to FL size with a collet die is a complete waste of time.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

Bobby Miller said:


> All I know is that trying to FL size with a collet die is a complete waste of time.


I bet that doesnt work to good either. LOL


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

Bottomsup said:


> I bet that doesnt work to good either. LOL


Niether does shoving a 30-06 case into a 44Mag die.


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## Superman70 (Aug 13, 2014)

The trimmed 308 brass goes in the 44 auto mag die


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## yep (Jul 25, 2006)

So I have the dies, for the collet die guys, you do not want the press to cam over at the end of the stroke with these dies, correct? You just have to get used to the feel of the die compressing the necks? Any other tips for using these dies?


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## Wado (May 15, 2011)

Read the instructions. You can over do it and push the aluminum end plug out of the die. I usually rotate the brass a few degrees and do it again.


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

Wado said:


> Read the instructions. You can over do it and push the aluminum end plug out of the die. I usually rotate the brass a few degrees and do it again.


I do the same. At a minimum, I will do more than one stroke.

(Cue juvenile laughter)


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