# Recreational fisherman gets prison time for lying about red snapper haul



## jdusek (Apr 7, 2006)

Anyone see this. Guy had a ton of fish. They need to go after the restaurants that purchase the fish too.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...herman-to-be-sentenced-for-lying-12390585.php


----------



## Snookered (Jun 16, 2009)

now, see, this is another slanted, BS opinion piece by an EDF shill, in a vain attempt to provide fodder for IFQ shareholders to beat GC members over the head with....

if the PURPOSE of the trip was to sell the fish to restaurants, then this was an inherently COMMERCIAL violation....just because the fishermen didn't have a COMMERCIAL license, or COMMERCIAL IFQ quota, doesn't mean that they were Recreational fishermen...this was clearly a COMMERCIAL violation...

notice how many times they attempt to subliminally insert "Recreational"

complete garbage, bought and paid for...
snookered


----------



## jdusek (Apr 7, 2006)

Snookered said:


> now, see, this is another slanted, BS opinion piece by an EDF shill, in a vain attempt to provide fodder for IFQ shareholders to beat GC members over the head with....
> 
> if the PURPOSE of the trip was to sell the fish to restaurants, then this was an inherently COMMERCIAL violation....just because the fishermen didn't have a COMMERCIAL license, or COMMERCIAL IFQ quota, doesn't mean that they were Recreational fishermen...this was clearly a COMMERCIAL violation...
> 
> ...


You right, I did not think about that until you mentioned it. That is a great point.


----------



## tarpon98 (Dec 21, 2013)

You mean "FAKE NEWS"!!!!!!


----------



## tiberiuswade1 (Feb 21, 2015)

That's right...lets label them "recreational fisherman" instead of commercial as it clearly is (even without come. Lic)
So when, the feds look at rec. Limits they would them restrict us and not commercial guys... shee

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## rringstaff (Jul 25, 2014)

also mentioned the "depleted" stocks several times


----------



## Snookered (Jun 16, 2009)

rringstaff said:


> also mentioned the "depleted" stocks several times


exactly....complete garbage...

if the purpose was to take the fish home, then that would be a recreational violation...it was to sell to restaurants....

COMMERCIAL VIOLATION...and irresponsible reporting...
snookered


----------



## 40marlin (Apr 29, 2015)

Over 625 fish for an Easter fish fry??? Now that is one huge party... :cop: :headknock

Oh and these "recreational" fisherman had a prior record of selling fish & initially lied about it to Authorities - "Marshall [co-defendant], 36, of Freeport, admitted he had sold $35,000 worth of fish to Houston-area restaurants."


----------



## Kenner21 (Aug 25, 2005)

[email protected]

Her email address is at the bottom of the article asking for tips, I emailed her a tip A about the difference between recreational and commercial fishermen. Probably not the kind of tip she was looking for.


----------



## Snookered (Jun 16, 2009)

Kenner21 said:


> [email protected]
> 
> Her email address is at the bottom of the article asking for tips, I emailed her a tip A about the difference between recreational and commercial fishermen. Probably not the kind of tip she was looking for.


green to you and thanks for posting....I'll shoot her a note as well...
snookered


----------



## Notenoughtime (Mar 7, 2011)

40marlin said:


> Over 625 fish for an Easter fish fry??? Now that is one huge party... :cop: :headknock
> 
> Oh and these "recreational" fisherman had a prior record of selling fish & initially lied about it to Authorities - "Marshall [co-defendant], 36, of Freeport, admitted he had sold $35,000 worth of fish to Houston-area restaurants."


The restaurant names should be made public as well right so we can choose to not eat at those establishments.


----------



## ekalisek (Dec 17, 2012)

I emailed asking to have any reference to recreational changed to criminal and received a reply shortly after stating that the article has been updated with the following clarification:

"Although he was operating as a rogue commercial fisherman, Brown was only licensed for recreational fishing."


----------



## Kenner21 (Aug 25, 2005)

Her response 

Thank you for your letter. Point taken. My editors say there is nothing incorrect in our story, but Iâ€™ve added a sentence to spell out the fact that Brown was operating as a rogue commercial fisherman even though he was only licensed for recreational fishin


----------



## ReelHazard (Jul 4, 2016)

I think one of the restaurants has taken new ownership since the incident came out. Which would be bad for the new owners which had no part in the buying of illegal fish.



Notenoughtime said:


> The restaurant names should be made public as well right so we can choose to not eat at those establishments.


----------



## sea sick (Feb 9, 2006)

I got the same response kenner21 received. I replied again. See what they respond with


----------



## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Snookered said:


> now, see, this is another slanted, BS opinion piece by an EDF shill, in a vain attempt to provide fodder for IFQ shareholders to beat GC members over the head with....
> 
> if the PURPOSE of the trip was to sell the fish to restaurants, then this was an inherently COMMERCIAL violation....just because the fishermen didn't have a COMMERCIAL license, or COMMERCIAL IFQ quota, doesn't mean that they were Recreational fishermen...this was clearly a COMMERCIAL violation...
> 
> ...


Yup, and when it happen commercial fishermen jumped on it and pointed fingers at REC anglers. Nothing has changed and the stupidity of journalist now days is just sad. They are worst then used car salesmen.


----------



## jamesw (Dec 1, 2014)

He must have been a recreational fisherman since he has a TPWD recreational license right? lol. It's not like he went out to catch fish to sell - since that would be commercial fishing.


----------



## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

ReelHazard said:


> I think one of the restaurants has taken new ownership since the incident came out. Which would be bad for the new owners which had no part in the buying of illegal fish.


 Bruce Molzan of Ruggles is who was doing the buying. I hope he spends time also, but he probably had enough money to get away with a slap on the wrist.


----------



## raghead (Jun 27, 2005)

Don't commercial fisherman need a Texas fishing license to land fish in Texas? Also - why is the 3rd person on the boat in this story not named?


----------



## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

******* said:


> Don't commercial fisherman need a Texas fishing license to land fish in Texas? Also - why is the 3rd person on the boat in this story not named?


3rd = the rat


----------



## SD Hawkins (Jan 2, 2008)

I was real good friends with two girls that worked at Ruggles in heyday back in the 90's. Spoke to one shortly after this broke and she told me he would take tips, a hole to work for, sexual harassment, etc. Never spoke to the fish thing ( likely did not know) but said they always, always had snapper was it really.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

I heard the rat was a well known charter captain in Freeport although he has denied it. He has been very vocal in pushing the EDF agenda.

Some of the guys convicted worked on Freeport charter boats.

This is a perfect example of how VMS provides ZERO accountability for commercial landings. Using a go fast runner boat to bring fish offloaded from the VMS equipped commercial vessel undetected.


----------



## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

hilton said:


> I heard the rat was a well known charter captain in Freeport although he has denied it. He has been very vocal in pushing the EDF agenda.
> .


I'm sure you "heard" that.


----------



## Snookered (Jun 16, 2009)

hilton said:


> This is a perfect example of how VMS provides ZERO accountability for commercial landings. Using a go fast runner boat to bring fish offloaded from the VMS equipped commercial vessel undetected.


what?!! Comm's cheating the system? say it isn't so....
snookered


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

bayourat said:


> I'm sure you "heard" that.


Believe it or not, I do have connections in the fishing universe.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

hilton said:


> I heard the rat was a well known charter captain in Freeport although he has denied it. He has been very vocal in pushing the EDF agenda.
> 
> Some of the guys convicted worked on Freeport charter boats.
> 
> This is a perfect example of how VMS provides ZERO accountability for commercial landings. Using a go fast runner boat to bring fish offloaded from the VMS equipped commercial vessel undetected.


How is this a perfect example?


----------



## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> How is this a perfect example?


Smaller boats running in snapper for VMS. Do not fool yourself, no one catches 500+ snapper, grouper, etc... without bandit reels.

They were just mules.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

The EDF/CFA people such as Shane Cantrell were quick to paint these guys as "recreational" fishermen when in reality they work in the charter fishing industry selling fish as rogue commercial fishermen - there was nothing "recreational" about it.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

Jolly Roger said:


> Smaller boats running in snapper for VMS. Do not fool yourself, no one catches 500+ snapper, grouper, etc... without bandit reels.
> 
> They were just mules.


You are very misinformed!!


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> You are very misinformed!!


Please enlighten us Ned.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

hilton said:


> Please enlighten us Ned.


Tom
I'm not a commercial fisherman, however anybody that has been offshore fishing in the last few years should know you don't need bandits to catch this amount of fish. You have a couple of recreationally licensed fishermen who made a very bad decision to do this. They will be punished and hopefully learn from this mistake. I'm sure it's possible that small boats could be used as "mules", but this is just another suggestion to point the finger at the commercial side. I'm not going to go into details about this situation, but it is pretty much what you read in article.


----------



## Chase This! (Jul 20, 2007)

The moment you accept payment for a service or skill, you become a professional. In this case, professional commercial fishermen.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

CFA/EDF spokesperson Shane Cantrell was quick to jump on this and start pointing fingers Ned. These guys were professional charter mates, making their living fishing aboard Freeport charter vessels - not true recs. Considering how the Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholders Alliance (EDF-sponsored commercial group) and The Charter Fishermans Association (EDF-sponsored for-hire wannabe commercial group) are in alignment against recreational fishermen in their quest to gain ownership of our fish through Catch Shares, I'm surprised at your stance here Ned.
Best,
Tom Hilton

http://www.caller.com/story/sports/...ly-500-illegally-caught-red-snapper/91489864/


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

Chase This! said:


> The moment you accept payment for a service or skill, you become a professional. In this case, professional commercial fishermen.


I understand where you are coming from, just don't see it the same way. 
If your boat breaks down and you get towed in by Sea Tow or tow boat US you would say you got towed by a professional towing co. Licensed captain with a boat that has towing insurance etc. Your boat breaks down and you get towed in by another recreational boat that tows you in for cash. I wouldn't call said boat a professional tow boat operator. 
There have been boats in the past that have taken people recreationally fishing offshore illegally( received payment). I wouldn't call them "professional" charter boat operators. I am not supporting or defending anybody. Just don't see things the same way.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

hilton said:


> CFA/EDF spokesperson Shane Cantrell was quick to jump on this and start pointing fingers Ned. These guys were professional charter mates, making their living fishing aboard Freeport charter vessels - not true recs. Considering how the Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholders Alliance (EDF-sponsored commercial group) and The Charter Fishermans Association (EDF-sponsored for-hire wannabe commercial group) are in alignment against recreational fishermen in their quest to gain ownership of our fish through Catch Shares, I'm surprised at your stance here Ned.
> Best,
> Tom Hilton
> 
> http://www.caller.com/story/sports/...ly-500-illegally-caught-red-snapper/91489864/


Tom
You don't need to question my "stance" on here. I just don't agree with a lot of what is said. These guys were not professional mates on Freeport charter boats. They were not mules. There is no need to paint that picture.


----------



## saltaholic (Feb 19, 2005)

Allow me to help-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_fishing

Recreational fishing, also called sport fishing, is fishing for pleasure or competition. It can be contrasted with commercial fishing, which is fishing for profit, or subsistence fishing, which is fishing for survival.

Commercial fishing is the activity of catching fish and other seafood for commercial profit, mostly from wild fisheries.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

saltaholic said:


> Allow me to help-
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_fishing
> 
> Recreational fishing, also called sport fishing, is fishing for pleasure or competition. It can be contrasted with commercial fishing, which is fishing for profit, or subsistence fishing, which is fishing for survival.
> ...


So basically the article was correct in stating, three recreational fishermen operating as rogue commercial fishermen.


----------



## Empty Pockets CC (Feb 18, 2009)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> So basically the article was correct in stating, three recreational fishermen operating as rogue commercial fishermen.


â€œThree fisherman operating as rogue commercial fisherman.â€
Nothing they were doing was â€œrecreational.â€ They werenâ€™t fishing for sport or competition, period. The word â€œrecreationalâ€ shouldnâ€™t have been used at all. 
It would be like calling me a commercial fisherman. Yes, I fish but I have never sold a fish Iâ€™ve caught for profit. The law breakers illegally fished, and tried to sell their catch which makes them rogue commercial fisherman. 
What is so difficult to understand about this concept? Pretty black and white to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## saltaholic (Feb 19, 2005)

Unlicensed, non permitted commercial fisherman would probably be a more appropriate title....


----------



## MTSkibum (Mar 12, 2014)

saltaholic said:


> Unlicensed, non permitted commercial fisherman would probably be a more appropriate title....


100% agree.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

Empty Pockets CC said:


> â€œThree fisherman operating as rogue commercial fisherman.â€
> Nothing they were doing was â€œrecreational.â€ They werenâ€™t fishing for sport or competition, period. The word â€œrecreationalâ€ shouldnâ€™t have been used at all.
> It would be like calling me a commercial fisherman. Yes, I fish but I have never sold a fish Iâ€™ve caught for profit. The law breakers illegally fished, and tried to sell their catch which makes them rogue commercial fisherman.
> What is so difficult to understand about this concept? Pretty black and white to me.
> ...


I think the article referred to them as recreational fishermen because they had recreational licenses, recreational style boat, recreational fishing gear, coolers, etc.

The point I was trying to make is some on here are fabricating facts to paint a different picture. Claiming connections in the fishing industry. Saying this is a perfect example of VMS boats using fast boats to transport fish. Charter boat crews etc. why fabricate these lies about commercial fishermen and CFH fishermen. Neither group was involved in this situation. None of these guys were working on Freeport charter boats. I don't think any of them were employed in marine industry. They were not working with a commercial boat as a mule. Some people on here will go to any length to satisfy a particular agenda. Even if it means blatantly lying.


----------



## Empty Pockets CC (Feb 18, 2009)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> I think the article referred to them as recreational fishermen because they had recreational licenses, recreational style boat, recreational fishing gear, coolers, etc.
> 
> The point I was trying to make is some on here are fabricating facts to paint a different picture. Claiming connections in the fishing industry. Saying this is a perfect example of VMS boats using fast boats to transport fish. Charter boat crews etc. why fabricate these lies about commercial fishermen and CFH fishermen. Neither group was involved in this situation. None of these guys were working on Freeport charter boats. I don't think any of them were employed in marine industry. They were not working with a commercial boat as a mule. Some people on here will go to any length to satisfy a particular agenda. Even if it means blatantly lying.


I understand your concern and the reasoning for your posts. 
The first part of your post is certainly a way to look at it, but just because someone is not a licensed attorney, for example, doesnâ€™t mean they canâ€™t act in the capacity of an attorney (illegally). The point I was trying to make was that while these guys do have all the rec stuff doesnâ€™t mean that they were necessarily acting in a rec capacity. I believe these guys that got caught were in fact acting in the capacity as a comm fisherman (illegally) not a rec angler. 
I cannot speak to the guys that got caught personally. I donâ€™t know a thing about them. 
It is simpler argue that these guys were acting in the capacity (legal or not) of a comm fisherman because they were selling their catch versus a rec fisherman that does not sell their catch. Do you agree? 
I truly am trying to understand your side of the discussion, and we may have to agree to disagree.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

Empty pockets
I see your side. Others here see it the other way also or they wouldn't be fabricating facts to get people to see it a certain way. The recreational fisherman vs CFH situation gets old. Especially when it goes too far. When someone ask for a charter boat recommendation and gets their post hijacked. When someone post a Bluewater report from a CFH trip and gets slammed. Now you have people fabricating facts to support their agenda. If you owned a Freeport Charter boat business and someone fabricated facts about this particular story, that they knew were not true, that painted a picture that is was local CFH mates 
How would you react?


----------



## Empty Pockets CC (Feb 18, 2009)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> Empty pockets
> 
> I see your side. Others here see it the other way also or they wouldn't be fabricating facts to get people to see it a certain way. The recreational fisherman vs CFH situation gets old. Especially when it goes too far. When someone ask for a charter boat recommendation and gets their post hijacked. When someone post a Bluewater report from a CFH trip and gets slammed. Now you have people fabricating facts to support their agenda. If you owned a Freeport Charter boat business and someone fabricated facts about this particular story, that they knew were not true, that painted a picture that is was local CFH mates
> 
> How would you react?


If the facts were fabricated and not true Iâ€™d be mad about it man. 
On the flip side of the coin (or another side of the coin rather) I have attended gulf council meetings and I can attest that SOME of the proponents of the comm sector will say and do anything for the decision makers to see it their way. They have lied and perverted what were facts. However, that does not justify the rec sector in turn to play dirty with them and stoop to their level of lunacy. 
I do think that the comm sector has pitted your group against me (or us). I donâ€™t want to see you go broke any more than you want to see me get 2 days to fish for snapper. I want to see you take people fishing with a full boat and we both get to catch our fair share of the fish. Do you agree with me here? 
Iâ€™m a reasonable person (I think) and so are you I believe. What is being said by SOME of the comms at the pulpit are not reasonable and some current laws and regs are in turn, not reasonable. Your thoughts and opinions please.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

No argument here. I agree some from all sides have bent the truth. I try not to get into that. I have went to meetings and have left many disappointed. I have grown very frustrated with current system. Neither the CFH or recreational seasons are long enough. However, I don't attack or plot against the recreational fisherman. I am basically a recreational fisherman that happens to own a charter boat company. We don't sell fish. We simply offer a vehicle to take recreational fishermen offshore so they can catch fish. It's a tough business, with all the regulations and short seasons. You have to enjoy it to stay with it nowadays. We take pride in trying to do everything the right way. We try to keep top notch boats, facility and crews. We are fortunate to have crews that are very passionate about fishing and taking care of customers.


----------



## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

I sat thru the gulf council meeting here in San Antonio - they made Harvey Weinstein look like a saint. The absolute coloring of conversation was beyond belief -..." oh, poor pitty me , I only make 3.4 million a year off RS and I would not know how to live if it were reduced "....( paraphrasing of course) - so there is a much need reddass towards commercial vessels . So , if anyone can fish for RS then we all should. It's a public resource , not a crop


----------



## saltaholic (Feb 19, 2005)

Great thread!!! Wow some things never change. Let me try again 

Fishing for fun and personal food = recreational fisherman 

Fishing for profit made by selling fish = commercial


----------



## Snookered (Jun 16, 2009)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> I think the article referred to them as recreational fishermen because they had recreational licenses, recreational style boat, recreational fishing gear, coolers, etc.


BUT: when you sell your fish, that is NOT for a Recreational PURPOSE....empty pockets eventually got around to it, LOL...



Blue Fin Charters said:


> Some people on here will go to any length to satisfy a particular agenda. Even if it means blatantly lying.


I agree with you 110%...some people will sue the Federal Gov't for simply scoping a document that considered reallocating a small percentage of the quota split back to the recreational fishermen...they will sue the Federal Gov't for trying to increase the TAC based on sound science....they will sue the Federal Gov't for lengthening the summer season by trading week days for weekends...

they will do anything they can to keep private recs (and Charter fishermen too! we're in the same boat!) from catching THEIR fish...including pressuring a journalist to put a certain spin on an article...which is exactly what happened....they didn't want that black eye on "their side", which ain't my side...
snookered


----------



## Snookered (Jun 16, 2009)

saltaholic said:


> Fishing for fun and personal food = recreational fisherman
> 
> Fishing for profit made by selling fish = commercial


taking people fishing for fun and personal food = recreational fisherman (charter)


----------



## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> Tom
> You don't need to question my "stance" on here. I just don't agree with a lot of what is said. *These guys were not professional mates on Freeport charter boats.* They were not mules. There is no need to paint that picture.


This. Both work in the plants for fulltime jobs. Bad choices for sure but they will learn from it.


----------



## Fish monger (Jul 20, 2011)

bayourat said:


> This. Both work in the plants for fulltime jobs. Bad choices for sure but they will learn from it.


When in fact Jb person said WAS a captain on a charter boat. Jamal was a deckhand many times for one of Elliotâ€™s boats.


----------



## bjd76 (Jan 12, 2008)

bayourat said:


> This. Both work in the plants for fulltime jobs. Bad choices for sure but they will learn from it.


So they were not "professional, fulltime mates" on charter boats.

Were they part time mates on charter boats? My (limited) experience is that many charter boat mates are part time, working for additional income...

I'm not challenging anyone - just want to get all the details and facts...


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> I think the article referred to them as recreational fishermen because they had recreational licenses, recreational style boat, recreational fishing gear, coolers, etc.
> 
> The point I was trying to make is some on here are fabricating facts to paint a different picture. Claiming connections in the fishing industry. Saying this is a perfect example of VMS boats using fast boats to transport fish. Charter boat crews etc. why fabricate these lies about commercial fishermen and CFH fishermen. Neither group was involved in this situation. None of these guys were working on Freeport charter boats. I don't think any of them were employed in marine industry. They were not working with a commercial boat as a mule. Some people on here will go to any length to satisfy a particular agenda. Even if it means blatantly lying.


Hey Ned,
Yes, the guys are employed at the plants, and simply made a bad choice here.

One guy on the boat had a captain's license and would run charters for a couple of the local Freeport outfits quite a bit. Another guy on the boat was a mate for a long time in the Freeport area on various charter boats - this is common knowledge. Not sure about the 3rd, unknown person. In short, they do indeed have deep connections in the fishing industry, so I don't appreciate being called a liar Ned.

I pointed out that this was a perfect example of how a mule would operate - I never claimed that they were mules in this particular instance. Yet, you stand up to defend the commercial outfits, as if this could NOT possibly happen. It can certainly happen, and may have happened here.

Here is the quote from Shane Cantrell; *"Incidents like these by private recreational fishermen highlight the failures of private angler leadership, not a failure in management of the fishery," Cantrell said. "Rather than doing their jobs and developing solutions to overfishing, state resource agencies are forcing anglers into civil disobedience. This punishes all of us."*

It is propaganda like this that really distorts the truth and is blatantly trying to spin this as a "recreational" failure when in fact the guys were from the charter industry and were operating a commercial fishing enterprise - one that went on for years apparently. Cantrell tries to blame Texas Parks and Wildlife for this unbelievably - as you said, some people will go to great lengths to push their agenda, but you say nothing about his lies. It is when the government gives away a majority of our Gulf of Mexico red snapper FOR FREE, to make millions off of what we ALL own that incites this type of greedy behavior.

Cantrell, Hickman, Jennings, and many of the commercial folks have been pushing for Catch Shares in the recreational fishing sector, DESPITE knowing that this would decimate the Texas charter fleet. I have fought long and hard for the Texas charter boats, yet they claim otherwise. I won't even go into the outright lies`that were put out there about me when the Reefman sank.

Blue Fin Charters is a highly respected outfit here in Freeport and I never meant to insinuate your involvement in this debacle. I have always respected you and what you do in the Freeport area Ned - we should have lunch sometime soon and talk about the new A&M coaching hire.

Best,
Tom


----------



## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> You are very misinformed!!


Funny,

when this all took place I said on this board(2cool) that they were selling them to restaurants. At the time couple charter fishermen like yourself said almost the same exact thing to me. Well guess who was mis-informed.... give you a hint was not me.

They are not Recreational fishermen, you are just lying to yourself.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

hilton said:


> Hey Ned,
> Yes, the guys are employed at the plants, and simply made a bad choice here.
> 
> One guy on the boat had a captain's license and would run charters for a couple of the local Freeport outfits quite a bit. Another guy on the boat was a mate for a long time in the Freeport area on various charter boats - this is common knowledge. Not sure about the 3rd, unknown person. In short, they do indeed have deep connections in the fishing industry, so I don't appreciate being called a liar Ned.
> ...


Tom
You can spin this however you want. Your original post implied they were Freeport charter boat hands that were carrying out this mule operation. You even had JR saying it wasn't possible to catch these fish without bandits and they were mules. One use to run a few small CC boats and one use to deck on head boats when he was in high school, but neither currently work as mates for Freeport Charter boats. You use to go to school, but I wouldn't refer to you as a student. The fact is you spin this to support an agenda. At the same time complaining about others who do similar. I am in no way defending these guys or supporting the commercial fisherman. It just gets old to see the same few bash CFH guys to support their argument. I don't come on here and attack you or try to spin stories to make you look bad.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> Tom
> You can spin this however you want. Your original post implied they were Freeport charter boat hands that were carrying out this mule operation. You even had JR saying it wasn't possible to catch these fish without bandits and they were mules. One use to run a few small CC boats and one use to deck on head boats when he was in high school, but neither currently work as mates for Freeport Charter boats. You use to go to school, but I wouldn't refer to you as a student. The fact is you spin this to support an agenda. At the same time complaining about others who do similar. I am in no way defending these guys or supporting the commercial fisherman. It just gets old to see the same few bash CFH guys to support their argument. I don't come on here and attack you or try to spin stories to make you look bad.


Ned, 
What I was attacking is the CFA/EDF lies, spinning it as a RECREATIONAL thing, yet it is interesting you have no problem with Cantrell's propaganda agenda. Do you agree with Cantrell that TPWD is to blame for these scofflaws' actions? If you disagree, I certainly haven't seen it - silence is endorsing the lies here Ned.

I reached out to you recently asking for red snapper landings information and you refused a while back, like most of the EDF/CFA folks did.

Disappointing.

This is what I said; *"Some of the guys convicted worked on Freeport charter boats.

This is a perfect example of how VMS provides ZERO accountability for commercial landings. Using a go fast runner boat to bring fish offloaded from the VMS equipped commercial vessel undetected."*

This IS a GREAT example of how VMS is a fallacy in providing "accountability" for their landings when it can be circumvented by methods such as this. If you can't see that, I can't help you.

You said these guys had NO ties to the charter industry - THEY DO - that is FACT. JB is currently a licensed charter captain and ran boats until this incident came up - that is a FACT. He may have been running charter boats this past summer - not sure. Jamal has deckhanded on many, many boats, both recreational and charter for MANY years - not in high school - that is a FACT. There are other folks (some involved in the charter industry) that are involved and will be fined on this same incident that hasn't been brought to light yet Ned.

I have had no contact with Jolly Roger on this matter - another incorrect statement by you.

I have in no way attacked you or spun stories to make you look bad - you doing that well enough on your own buddy.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

Tom
I never said they had NO ties to charter boat industry. I said they didn't work for a Freeport Charter boat co. I never said you had contact with Jolley Roger. I said you had him saying they were mules. Your story implied they were charter boat mates. Your story had JR repeating your mule theory, as if you were stating true facts. I did not know I was supposed to report landings to you. I do not come on here to start rumors or stretch the truth to satisfy an agenda.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> Tom
> I never said they had NO ties to charter boat industry. I said they didn't work for a Freeport Charter boat co. I never said you had contact with Jolley Roger. I said you had him saying they were mules. Your story implied they were charter boat mates. Your story had JR repeating your mule theory, as if you were stating true facts. I did not know I was supposed to report landings to you. I do not come on here to start rumors or stretch the truth to satisfy an agenda.


Ned,
One is a charter boat captain, another is a charter mate - indisputable facts - I can give you the names of the Texas charter boat companies if you like. More individuals with connections to the charter industry are implicated and being fined as we speak - this will come out soon enough.

I have not stretched the truth anywhere on this thread.

I have been a very vocal proponent of Texas charter boats in recent years. There is a BIG difference between Texas charter boats and the Charter Fisherman's Association - something you seem to be missing. Texas charter boats are not the enemy, although it is an inconvenient truth that there were members of the Texas charter industry involved in this scandal despite CFA propaganda claiming this was solely a "recreational" problem.

Again, despite several references to Shane Cantrell's propaganda, not one word from you decrying his lies. Your silence speaks volumes.

CFA has pushed an agenda that if implemented would decimate the Texas charter boat landings capacity - like about 90%. Yet, not a word from someone who is supposedly interested in the best interests of Texas charter boats.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

The two who were named in Chronicle are not currently working on Freeport Charter boats, nor were they at time of the USCG boarding. To try and link this unfortunate situation to the Freeport Charter boat fleet is unfair. IMO


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> The two who were named in Chronicle are not currently working on Freeport Charter boats, nor were they at time of the USCG boarding. To try and link this unfortunate situation to the Freeport Charter boat fleet is unfair. IMO


I have no beef with the Freeport charter fleet at all.

My concern is the misinformation spouted by the EDF/CFA folks trying to paint this as a "recreational" problem when there was nothing recreational about it. It was charter captains/mates running an illegal COMMERCIAL FISHING OPERATION. Cantrell wants Texas to kowtow to the Feds and close our state water seasons - says it in Sikes' article and points to this incident as justification - about as ridiculous as it gets.

What is my "agenda" by the way Ned?

Tom Hilton
www.hiltonsoffshore.com
www.atlantismarinehabitats.com
www.freedom2fish.org


----------



## Snookered (Jun 16, 2009)

Look, guys, I don't think you're too far apart on this....and in fact, it doesn't matter WHO it was, or where they were out of....could have been south padre...

it's the idea that the CFA/EDF bunch convinced a journalist to write a fluff piece regarding a violation, that clearly wasn't a recreational effort, by selling fish to restaurant's...it was clearly a COMMERCIAL violation, and to spin it any other way is insulting and incompetent journalism...
snookered


----------



## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> Tom
> I never said they had NO ties to charter boat industry. I said they didn't work for a Freeport Charter boat co. I never said you had contact with Jolley Roger. I said you had him saying they were mules. Your story implied they were charter boat mates. Your story had JR repeating your mule theory, as if you were stating true facts. I did not know I was supposed to report landings to you. I do not come on here to start rumors or stretch the truth to satisfy an agenda.


I called them mules when they were caught, same time I said they were selling the fish. I am not repeating anyone.

You are very mis-informed.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

hilton said:


> I have no beef with the Freeport charter fleet at all.
> 
> My concern is the misinformation spouted by the EDF/CFA folks trying to paint this as a "recreational" problem when there was nothing recreational about it. It was charter captains/mates running an illegal COMMERCIAL FISHING OPERATION. Cantrell wants Texas to kowtow to the Feds and close our state water seasons - says it in Sikes' article and points to this incident as justification - about as ridiculous as it gets.
> 
> ...


Your Agenda is obviously to smear the CFH. You are smart enough to know the difference between charter captain and mate and former charter captain and mate.


----------



## Blue Fin Charters (Mar 2, 2010)

Jolly Roger said:


> Smaller boats running in snapper for VMS. Do not fool yourself, no one catches 500+ snapper, grouper, etc... without bandit reels.
> 
> They were just mules.


This one Jolly. Feeding off of Toms "perfect example"


----------



## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> This one Jolly. Feeding off of Toms "perfect example"


nope, explaining it to you as you seemed confused as to what was being discussed, and are still confused even with it spelled out to you.

But by all means carry on with being wrong and misinformed.

I find it funny you think a REC boat can run out for a day and catch 4000lbs of fish, yet it takes commercial fishermen several days to do the same...... not hard to figure out, at least not for most.


----------



## saltaholic (Feb 19, 2005)

The article blamed recs and called the culprits "recreational fishermen" we have clarified that is false and that the culprits were associated with charter companies in the form of previous employment and one was a licensed Capt. Some how we are still arguing that both of these statements are not true...... again- great thread


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

Ned is in denial - obviously drunk on the EDF/CFA koolaid. Called me a liar how many times now?

I want Texas charter boats to fish as much as possible - CFA endorses a plan that will reduce charter fishing days and ultimately the number of CFH boats fishing. Less boats splitting the pie means more the ones that survive, exactly as what happened when they went to IFQs.


----------



## darthwader2000 (Jan 4, 2015)

Thought this was a Rec board? Donâ€™t think blue fin charters is a site sponsor. Why are we stuck with his BS?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lostinpecos (Jul 9, 2013)

3 guys catching 642 red snapper and vermillion on rod and reel? Donâ€™t know what boat they were using but Iâ€™m curious about the entire timeline of their trip and when when they got boarded.

Article made it sound like it was a day trip.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

Blue Fin Charters said:


> Your Agenda is obviously to smear the CFH. You are smart enough to know the difference between charter captain and mate and former charter captain and mate.


And you're smart enough to know the difference between *CFH* (Charter For-Hire) and *CFA* (Charter Fishermans Association) Ned.

There is no reason for me to smear the CFH - I have many customers and friends who are hard working charter captains/mates. I believe you have been mislead on the core issues of where the Texas charter fleet is heading, which to quote Merle Haggard; "....heading downhill like a snowball heading for HELL...."

There is a small group of charter captains, based out of Texas, who have been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by The Environmental Defense Fund to push their agenda of privatizing our recreational fish as EDF did with the commercial fleet. Shane Cantrell, Scott Hickman, Mike Jennings, et al have pushed for Sector Separation for many years now, and now that they have accomplished that step, the next step is to transfer ownership of our fish to federally permitted charter boat owners via Catch Shares (Permit Fishing Quotas and/or Individual Fishing Quotas). When/if this next step is accomplished, it will result in a drastic reduction in access to fishing for their charter customers and increase the value of their permits since the value of those fish applied to those permits could be substantial.

This loss of access for their customers (less fish/fishing days per permit) is just collateral damage in the quest to gain ownership of *OUR* fish. The supposed "need" for Sector Separation was to provide more access to our nation's fish for the "millions of non-boat-owning Americans" but in reality it is just the opposite. The people leading this charge are more than willing to sacrifice their customers' access in exchange for enriching their pocketbooks at *ALL* Americans' expense.

Shane Cantrell and Scott Hickman have led the charge to blur the lines between *COMMERCIAL* and *CHARTER* fishing with their "Commercial Catch Share Fishing Experience Trips" where they take recreational fishermen fishing on *CHARTERS* (that can't be called a charter) on their *COMMERCIAL* IFQ fishing trips. I still can't believe the regulators have allowed this to happen - same boat, same captain/mate, same fishing gear, same recreational fishermen - just twisting of the rules to say it's not a "charter".

Perhaps that is the reason Cantrell was quick to try to paint this crime as a "recreational" problem when in fact his actions have led to this blurring of *COMMERCIAL/CHARTER* operations in the Gulf. The long term strategy is to setup intersector trading where *COMMERCIAL* IFQ Sea Lords can lease "their" fish to *CHARTER* operations, or dual-permitted operations like Hickman's/Cantrell's where they own commercial IFQ quota can use that *COMMERCIAL* quota on their recreational *CHARTER* trips, giving them a leg up on their competition. Intersector trading will open up a whole new market for the IFQ Sea Lords, further enriching their bank accounts by charging us for what we ALREADY own.

The only other recreational fishery where Sector Separation exists is in the Alaskan halibut fishery. They have cut the charter quota so low that the charter captains up there don't have enough fish to take their customers fishing so they lease halibut from the *COMMERCIAL* Sea Lords at $400 per halibut. I have had Alaskan *CHARTER* captains contact me and tell me that this is what is coming to the Gulf unless we combat it. Imagine catching a nice 20 pound snapper and the captain telling you that if you want to take it home, it will cost you $320 (the going rate on the commercial catch share experience trips is $16/pound on the hoof).

Apparently Bluefin Charters is ok with this scenario - I am not.

The question begs; who here is really looking out for the best interests of Texas charter boats? You make the call.


----------



## Kenner21 (Aug 25, 2005)

darthwader2000 said:


> Thought this was a Rec board? Donâ€™t think blue fin charters is a site sponsor. Why are we stuck with his BS?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Blue Fin is a site sponsor it says so right beneath the user name and the user name is in green.


----------



## darthwader2000 (Jan 4, 2015)

Sorry for that. It doesnâ€™t show up like that on my phone. Guess I will refrain for any more post, as I donâ€™t want to end back up in â€œband campâ€. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

