# Property Proof of Ownership



## Speckfish (Oct 14, 2004)

What documents show proof of ownership for a home. Short story is I bought a house 8/14 and paid cash. Moved in 9/14 and everything seemed glorious until out of nowhere I was contanted by a gentlemen stating I was living in his house. The title company I used has only been able to provide a copy of the quick deed and bill of sale. The title company will not return my calls or e-mails at this point. My question is are the documents I have good enough to prove I own the property in case some freak shows up on my door step. If not then how do I pursue getting what I need. 


Thanks 
Speck


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Sounds strange*

To answer your question, a copy of the deed to you should convince a sheriff deputy or maybe a relative of the former owner. But a deed could be a forgery, or from someone who had no title.

I would tell the person who came to your door that you purchased the property and have a deed, that you are in possession under that deed and if he wants he can research the transaction further, hire an attorney and file suit (that your title company will defend). In other words, you really don't have to prove your right of possession to someone who walks up to your door. He has to prove your possession is unlawful.

Paying cash really is not the issue. If you went through a title company, closed at their offices and received a copy of their title commitment you should be covered. That's not to say you will end up owning if the title company made a mistake and someone defeats your title, but you will get the money covered by the policy.

Not sure what you mean by a "quick deed". If you paid cash to someone who represented he owned and he gave you a quitclaim deed and you didn't actually buy title insurance, then you might be in a bad spot. Title insured transactions are never done with quitclaim deeds, only warranty deeds.


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## snapperlicious (Aug 11, 2009)

I would show up in person to the title company. Also have you contacted the seller? Looked at previous tax documents to see who owned the house?


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

My first question is what title company did you use and are they legitimate? Sounds WAYYYYY fishy to me.

The deed to the property is the legal "instrument" that establishes ownership. You should have a deed that transferred ownership from the seller to you. That deed should be filed of record in the county courthouse where the property is.

Second question is: Did you receive a title policy from the title company? A title policy is basically an insurance policy against all "claims" against your ownership (and a few other things). 
Was it underwritten by a reputable insurance company? 
Did you use a realtor to help with the transaction? 
How much did you pay for the house?

WAYYYYYY too many questions in this situation.


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## Grumpy365 (Oct 21, 2010)

Speckfish said:


> .........................*The title company I used has only been able to provide a copy of the quick deed and bill of sale. The title company will not return my calls or e-mails at this point*. ..................


This would worry the heck out of me. I wouldn't be able to sleep.

Go to the title office and sit there until someone talks to you.


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

What sounds scary as all get out is the Title Company not returning your calls. Did you buy a policy from them?

As for the deed, what does it say at the courthouse?

As others have mentioned, just because some Joe from the street says its his property, doesn't make it so. My parents bought some land and a house from the estate of an old couple a while back. They went through about 5 years of people showing up saying "they owed them money", or "they owned X number of acres of this property" or "they have a lien on the property, so my parents couldn't have purchased it legally".

They all lost, and the TC went to bat every time they were needed.


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## Realvestor (Nov 19, 2009)

I sure hope you closed the transaction at a title company and received a Title Policy. A Title Policy should eliminate the problem.

The deed should have been recorded in the property records of the County the property is located in. You should have received a Warranty Deed or Special Warranty Deed, not just a "quick" deed, and the title company should have recorded it.

If in Harris County, you can do a database search at: http://www.cclerk.hctx.net/applications/websearch/RP.aspx

You would be the Grantee, and the Seller would be the Grantor. Put Last name first in the search box.

Good luck! I hope it all works out!


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## Empty Pockets CC (Feb 18, 2009)

Boys I hate to tell you but a title policy isn't worth the paper it's written on...exclusions, exclusions exclusions in paragraph b. Just like most insurance policies in today's world...isn't worth the paper it's written on.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Empty Pockets CC said:


> Boys I hate to tell you but a title policy isn't worth the paper it's written on...exclusions, exclusions exclusions in paragraph b. Just like most insurance policies in today's world...isn't worth the paper it's written on.


 So you are saying that there is no way to insure that you own a piece of property??? You might have to manage the exclusions, but a title policy is the only "insurance" that you are indeed the owner.


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## fangard (Apr 18, 2008)

Empty Pockets CC said:


> Boys I hate to tell you but a title policy isn't worth the paper it's written on...exclusions, exclusions exclusions in paragraph b. Just like most insurance policies in today's world...isn't worth the paper it's written on.


Pretty broad and careless statement. If everyone would take the time to read contracts there would be a lot less confusion about what is covered and what is not. Helps set expectations.


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## Realvestor (Nov 19, 2009)

Empty Pockets CC said:


> Boys I hate to tell you but a title policy isn't worth the paper it's written on...exclusions, exclusions exclusions in paragraph b. Just like most insurance policies in today's world...isn't worth the paper it's written on.


I've been involved in several title issues over the years and the title company has made good each time if a title policy is involved. They will only cover up to the amount of the title policy purchased, which is the sales price.

Edit: The issues were regarding ownership, not exceptions.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

To the OP....turn your computer off and go see an attorney.


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## a couple more (Mar 19, 2009)

ChuChu said:


> To the OP....turn your computer off and go see an attorney.


i would definitely be looking in this direction. Sounds like this could be legit or a possibly go south quickly.


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## czbrian (Aug 16, 2011)

After you get back from the attorney, please let us know how this plays out. This could be a learning lesson for others and hopefully everything works out for you. I didn't know the difference between a quitclaim and warranty deed until now.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Sounds like you got a Quit Claim Deed. This only transfers the grantor's rights to the property. Any number of other property owners with a documented interest in the same property could exist.

I have never heard of a "Quick Deed". You need an attorney.


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

If you bought the house, and it's a Quitclaim Deed, then that's even scarier.


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## fish'nchipper (Feb 8, 2006)

PM me for my number at my firm and I can explain everything you'll need. Your answer depends on a lot of facts. It's also a race to record state. I have a case right now where a woman bought a house from an individual, but the guy sold the same house to two other people two days before her. Title companies didn't catch it, now all three "owners" want the house. It's a mess, and title insurance companies aren't just rolling over to pay either. You're apt to need help and need it soon. If this is your homestead, go talk to me or any other lawyer you think can help you because it's not something you want to mess around with.


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## Speckfish (Oct 14, 2004)

*proof of ownership*

Thanks for the replies and I am pretty much pooping in my pants at this point. I contacted my attorney and he is looking into it and told me to take a breath he would have an answer for me tomorrow.

Thanks
Speck


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Just hook it up to the hitch and move it across town. The guy won't be able to find you anymore.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

InfamousJ said:


> Just hook it up to the hitch and move it across town. The guy won't be able to find you anymore.


Those would have titles instead of deeds.


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## OnedayScratch (May 23, 2012)

Title insurance is cheap.


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## Grumpy365 (Oct 21, 2010)

OnedayScratch said:


> Title insurance is cheap.


A little late now.

Either he has it or he doesn't.

Being a CASH deal, I wouldn't take the bet whether or not he opted for the extra cost.

Banks protect themselves (and you) from this and yourself by requiring it.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*100% wrong*



fish'nchipper said:


> PM me for my number at my firm and I can explain everything you'll need. Your answer depends on a lot of facts. It's also a race to record state. I have a case right now where a woman bought a house from an individual, but the guy sold the same house to two other people two days before her. Title companies didn't catch it, now all three "owners" want the house. It's a mess, and title insurance companies aren't just rolling over to pay either. You're apt to need help and need it soon. If this is your homestead, go talk to me or any other lawyer you think can help you because it's not something you want to mess around with.


Texas is and always has been a pure notice state. There is absolutely no race to the courthouse to record a deed in Texas.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Johnboat said:


> Texas is and always has been a pure notice state. There is absolutely no race to the courthouse to record a deed in Texas.


Can you expound on that further JB? I'm definitely not in the know on this topic.


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## TheGoose (Jan 22, 2006)

spurgersalty said:


> Can you expound on that further JB? I'm definitely not in the know on this topic.


I would listen to fishnchipper, who is an attorney, over john boat.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

http://landandlegal.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-texas-race-notice-state-or-pure.html?m=1


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

InfamousJ said:


> http://landandlegal.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-texas-race-notice-state-or-pure.html?m=1


That clears it right up. But, it seems to me the terminology is off a bit and misleading.
BTW, good to see you IJ, most of the other regulars had thought the worse!


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

InfamousJ said:


> http://landandlegal.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-texas-race-notice-state-or-pure.html?m=1


Not to nderail this thread but the oil lease example makes no sense to me. It sounds to me like I could continue to lease my oil rights indefinitely as the last leasor attains rights???......


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

BretE said:


> Not to nderail this thread but the oil lease example makes no sense to me. It sounds to me like I could continue to lease my oil rights indefinitely as the last lessor attains rights???......


Duh. You're not a billionaire already doing that? You need to get a better advisory team on your side.


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

InfamousJ said:


> Duh. You're not a billionaire already doing that? You need to get a better advisory team on your side.


Obviously....my royalty checks are dwindling these days. Wanna lease some oil rights?......


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## Gottagofishin (Dec 17, 2005)

I have a friend in Nigeria who is looking for some oil leases. Just send me $100K and me and my attorney, E, will set everything up. If you don't get a royalty check for at least $500K within 18 mos just PM me and I'll give you a full refund.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Gottagofishin said:


> I have a friend in Nigeria who is looking for some oil leases. Just send me $100K and me and my attorney, E, will set everything up. If you don't get a royalty check for at least $500K within 18 mos just PM me and I'll give you a full refund.


You normally don't PUI. What gives?:slimer:


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

Gottagofishin said:


> I have a friend in Nigeria who is looking for some oil leases. Just send me $100K and me and my attorney, E, will set everything up. If you don't get a royalty check for at least $500K within 18 mos just PM me and I'll give you a full refund.


Sorry, I'm dealing with numerous e-mail Nigerian money makers already. I'm bout to be rich when all my checks come in!.....


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## Gottagofishin (Dec 17, 2005)

spurgersalty said:


> You normally don't PUI. What gives?:slimer:


Dang. I was actually sober for once. Maybe I need to rethink this not drinking thing.


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## bayrunner (Sep 26, 2004)

Quitclaim deeds only transfers that persons ownership in the property. A couple outside of San Antonio bought a home for cash and thought they got a really good deal. It turns out that the gentlemen living there and was paying the taxes so he was listed on tax records as the owner, was one of 11 relatives that had inherited the house. The couple that purchased it were out of luck since they didn't have title insurance.


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

TheGoose said:


> I would listen to fishnchipper, who is an attorney, over john boat.


johnboat is an attorney as well.


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## Empty Pockets CC (Feb 18, 2009)

speckle-catcher said:


> johnboat is an attorney as well.


From Nigeria?


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

Naw. I don't think so.


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## lite-liner (Mar 15, 2005)

I love these threads.
Informative AND entertaining......


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## Southernflounder (Dec 19, 2013)

Scary what can happen with these scum of the earth swindlers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Johnny9 (Sep 7, 2005)

Warranty if title by and though previous owners? Get a chain of title and see if everyone has warranted the title.


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## HarryK (Jun 5, 2008)

lite-liner said:


> I love these threads.
> Informative AND entertaining......


Really scary how little is known about title insurance. 
OP - The proof of your ownership is the deed that the Seller signed at closing. It should have been recorded at the County Clerk's office(these days it is e-filed). If you went through a real title company, then they issued a *Owner's Policy of Title Insurance*(not a commitment) that covers you for fraudulent activities as forgery, etc. You should have already received that from them. There is not a title company in Texas that would use a Quit Claim Deed to convey real property. If someone, in fact, has a legitimate claim to the property, then the title company is on the hook for paying that claim. Title insurance is just like any other form of insurance, someone will need to make a claim against the policy and then you let them defend that claim made by the guy who called you. What company does your policy say is the insurer...Fidelity, Old Republic, Stewart, Chicago, First American, Commonwealth, WFG...?


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## bjones2571 (May 2, 2007)

speckle-catcher said:


> johnboat is an attorney as well.


And, in this case, he's correct.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

HarryK said:


> Really scary how little is known about title insurance.
> OP - The proof of your ownership is the deed that the Seller signed at closing. It should have been recorded at the County Clerk's office(these days it is e-filed). If you went through a real title company, then they issued a *Owner's Policy of Title Insurance*(not a commitment) that covers you for fraudulent activities as forgery, etc. You should have already received that from them. There is not a title company in Texas that would use a Quit Claim Deed to convey real property. If someone, in fact, has a legitimate claim to the property, then the title company is on the hook for paying that claim. Title insurance is just like any other form of insurance, someone will need to make a claim against the policy and then you let them defend that claim made by the guy who called you. What company does your policy say is the insurer...Fidelity, Old Republic, Stewart, Chicago, First American, Commonwealth, WFG...?


There was no mention of an owners title policy being required or issued. It sounds like the Title Co could have possibly only acted as Notary to witness signing and possibly record documents. Not enough information provided to tell exactly what was presented and signed.


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## HarryK (Jun 5, 2008)

Haute Pursuit said:


> There was no mention of an owners title policy being required or issued. It sounds like the Title Co could have possibly only acted as Notary to witness signing and possibly record documents. Not enough information provided to tell exactly what was presented and signed.


Title companies don't play "notary service" most of the time. Usually, if you come to a title company office, title insurance is being sold. If your are dumb enough to refuse title insurance on a risky deal...good luck with paying your attorneys bills trying to win in court.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

HarryK said:


> Title companies don't play "notary service" most of the time. Usually, if you come to a title company office, title insurance is being sold. If your are dumb enough to refuse title insurance on a risky deal...good luck with paying your attorneys bills trying to win in court.


What do I know... My father and my attorney owned one. 

I simply mentioned what could have happened if a deed other than a General Warranty or Special Warranty Deed was not obtained.


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## HarryK (Jun 5, 2008)

That's great! Then go ask your father or your attorney how many times they just acted as a notary and didn't sell a title policy for a closing.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

HarryK said:


> That's great! Then go ask your father or your attorney how many times they just acted as a notary and didn't sell a title policy for a closing.


Happens all the time. They facilitate a lot of commercial deals also that have zero to do with a title policy. Have a nice day!


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## Empty Pockets CC (Feb 18, 2009)

I guess I'm "dumb" since I don't buy title insurance. Read the title policy paperwork and then come back on here and tell me what is covered, what is quasi covered, and what you thought was covered but isn't. It isn't worth the paper it's written on. That's my opinion. There's a lot of money to be saved in self insuring, reading and learning about what your buying, and having a trusted attorney look over the title documents before you purchase something. If insurance makes you sleep at night then buy it...I sleep fine without it.


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

Haute Pursuit said:


> What do I know... My father and my attorney owned one.
> 
> I simply mentioned what could have happened if a deed other than a General Warranty or Special Warranty Deed was not obtained.


I know that title companies are regulated. Some of the fees they charge are dictated by the state. You'll be charged the same amount, no matter what title company you go to.

So if these people are functioning as a title company, don't they have a fiduciary duty to both parties? And isn't there some errors and omissions clause in their liability policy?


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

pocjetty said:


> I know that title companies are regulated. Some of the fees they charge are dictated by the state. You'll be charged the same amount, no matter what title company you go to.
> 
> So if these people are functioning as a title company, don't they have a fiduciary duty to both parties? And isn't there some errors and omissions clause in their liability policy?


The policy itself and those fees are regulated by the State Board of Insurance. The exclusions to the policy have to be in writing and in the policy. The title company is not representing either party.


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

Haute Pursuit said:


> The policy itself and those fees are regulated by the State Board of Insurance. The exclusions to the policy have to be in writing and in the policy. The title company is not representing either party.


I understand. But my understanding was always that the title company has a duty to explain things like that. I could go look for cases, but I thought some of those guys have lost court cases for taking the caveat emptor approach? They have specialized knowledge that the average person doesn't have, which is why we hire them.

My point about them being regulated is that it probably also means that they have to carry a liability policy or bond.

The other thing is that they aren't SUPPOSED to represent either party. In this case, I would definitely look into any relationship between the seller and the title company. It would be easy for a "friendly" title company to help an unscrupulous seller pull a fast one. If the title company was, in fact, working in conjunction with one of the parties, it might change the picture a bit, don't you think?


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## HarryK (Jun 5, 2008)

Haute Pursuit said:


> Happens all the time. They facilitate a lot of commercial deals also that have zero to do with a title policy. Have a nice day!


Someone's getting paid for legal advice...that is just good busines


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

pocjetty said:


> I understand. But my understanding was always that the title company has a duty to explain things like that. I could go look for cases, but I thought some of those guys have lost court cases for taking the caveat emptor approach? They have specialized knowledge that the average person doesn't have, which is why we hire them.
> 
> My point about them being regulated is that it probably also means that they have to carry a liability policy or bond.
> 
> The other thing is that they aren't SUPPOSED to represent either party. In this case, I would definitely look into any relationship between the seller and the title company. It would be easy for a "friendly" title company to help an unscrupulous seller pull a fast one. If the title company was, in fact, working in conjunction with one of the parties, it might change the picture a bit, don't you think?


Exactly, they have a duty to both, not either/or. I'm not sure about the E/O insurance question. It may be offered, but I no idea if it is required of each company.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

HarryK said:


> Someone's getting paid for legal advice...that is just good busines


Whatever... :spineyes:


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

Haute Pursuit said:


> Exactly, they have a duty to both, not either/or. I'm not sure about the E/O insurance question. It may be offered, but I no idea if it is required of each company.


 I'm just looking for things that might help this guy. My experience has been to find any points of leverage. Title companies have to be licensed, and that usually implies a requirement to have some sort of bond or insurance. Otherwise, a title policy would only be worth whatever the title company could personally afford. If this was a licensed title company, there may well be some recourse. And an insurance policy would be a source of money to make it right.

If they performed this "service" without being a licensed title company, I suspect there is a case to be made that they are guilty of the unlawful practice of law. That's something I think they would want to avoid facing.

If the seller and title company (licensed or not) were working together, there's conspiracy to commit fraud, and probably some other unpleasant things you could come up with. Once again, someone might be inclined to cough up money, rather than face that possibility.

Don't overlook the possibility that the other person claiming ownership of this property might be in on it. Spend a few bucks on an online record search, and see what you can find about all these people. You can get very detailed information on all three, probably for less than a hundred bucks.

One of two things are certain: Either the seller sold a piece of property he/she didn't own, or the other "owner" is claiming to own the property when they don't. (Or, possibly, both.) You need to establish which one, and get very, very nasty with whoever is responsible. There is probably no way that this is an innocent mistake, so don't be shy about involving law enforcement.

That's not legal advice, but it's what has worked for me in similar situations. Make sure that, even if you lose, the other person knows he won't walk away feeling like the winner.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

pocjetty said:


> I'm just looking for things that might help this guy. My experience has been to find any points of leverage. Title companies have to be licensed, and that usually implies a requirement to have some sort of bond or insurance. Otherwise, a title policy would only be worth whatever the title company could personally afford. If this was a licensed title company, there may well be some recourse. And an insurance policy would be a source of money to make it right.
> 
> If they performed this "service" without being a licensed title company, I suspect there is a case to be made that they are guilty of the unlawful practice of law. That's something I think they would want to avoid facing.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying, but at issue is whether or not a Title Policy was offered or issued at all. It is not a requirement in every situation... Especially if no lender is involved in the purchase.


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

Haute Pursuit said:


> I understand what you are saying, but at issue is whether or not a Title Policy was offered or issued at all. It is not a requirement in every situation... Especially if no lender is involved in the purchase.


No, that's true. But... a responsible title company should have recommended one. And since that's how they make most of their money, I would have to wonder why they didn't. And, even in the absence of a policy, one of the primary functions of a title company is title review. If the property didn't belong to the seller, I'd say they did a pretty poor job of that. If they are, in fact, a licensed title company, I'd be using words like "gross negligence".

I think it's pretty obvious from this discussion that the buyer didn't purchase a title policy. That doesn't mean that a title company had no obligations. Right now, this buyer's biggest concern has to be recovering some or all of the money he shelled out for the property. I'm just trying to make some suggestions for how I would go about it, if I were in his shoes.

Saying that he should have known better isn't productive. I'm not sure it's even entirely accurate. These situations are EXACTLY the reason title companies exist. THEY do know better. Allowing a person to sell a property that he/she doesn't own? That's pretty much in the name TITLE company. If they didn't find out at least that much, they probably should have. Or, at the VERY least, they should have told him that the paper he holds isn't really a title.

I'd be going through DTPA laws, or anything else that might cover a knowledgeable business that neglected to inform a consumer. But I'm not an attorney.


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## LaddH (Sep 29, 2011)

Fun quiz for Title pros

http://recenter.tamu.edu/quiz/quiz09.asp

Good Luck

Disclaimer. I know nothing about real estate.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Haute Pursuit said:


> Whatever... :spineyes:


Dude you already cleared it all up a long time ago. There is no deed, it's a title.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

InfamousJ said:


> Dude you already cleared it all up a long time ago. There is no deed, it's a title.


LOL


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## Speckfish (Oct 14, 2004)

*Good News*

Update: All is good. Have title policy and filing in county is there. Thanks for info.


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