# Just got this in an email



## Livininlogs

attacking through our children again

Be on alert for this book. Make sure it doesn't end up in your kids hands or home.

If you have children or grandchildren, work with children at church, or you
have neighborhood children whose parents you know, please take note of the
information below and pass it along to others. Schools are distributing this 
book to children through the Scholastic Book Club.

The name of the book is Conversations with God.. James Dobson talked about
this book twice this week. It is devastating. Parents, churches and
Christian schools need to be aware of it. Please pass this information on to 
church/e-mail addressees, Parents, Grandparents, Aunts, Uncles, Cousins,
friends.

Please pay special attention not only to what your kids watch on TV, in
movie theaters, on the internet, and the music they listen to, but also be 
alert regarding the books they read.

Two particular books are, Conversations with God and Conversations with God
for Teens, written by Neale D. Walsch. They sound harmless enough by their
titles alone. The books have been on the New York Times best sellers list 
for a number of weeks, and they make truth of the statement, 'Don't judge a
book by its cover or title.'

The author purports to answer various questions asked by kids using the
'voice of God'. However, the 'answers' that he gives are not Bible-based and 
go against the very infallible word of God. For instance (and I paraphrase),
when a girl asks the question 'Why am I a lesbian?' His answer is that she
was 'born that way' because of genetics (just as you were born right-handed, 
with brown eyes, etc.). Then he tells her to go out and 'celebrate' her
differences.

Another girls poses the question 'I am living with my boyfriend. My parents
say that I should marry him because I am living in sin. Should I marry him?'

His reply is, 'Who are you sinning against? Not me, because you have done
nothing wrong.'

Another question asks about God's forgiveness of sin. His reply 'I do not
forgive anyone because there is nothing to forgive. There is no such thing 
as right or wrong and that is what I have been trying to tell everyone, do
not judge people. People have chosen to judge one another and this is wrong,
because the rule is ''judge not lest ye be judged.' 
Not only are these books the false doctrine of the devil, but in some
instances quote (in error) the Word of God.

And the list goes on. These books (and others like it) are being sold to
schoolchildren through (The Scholastic Book Club), and we need to be aware 
of what is being fed to our children.

Our children are under attack. So I pray that you be sober and vigilant
about teaching your children the Word of God, and guarding their exposure to
worldly mediums, because our adversary, the devil, roams about as a roaring 
lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). We know that lions usually
hunt for the slowest, weakest and YOUNGEST of its prey.

Pass this on to every Believer you know. God bless! And, if you are in
doubt, check out the books yourself.

Found a good article concerning this book w/ even more info on Scholastic: http://www.cwfa.org/articles/668/CFI/cfreport/index.htm


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## Livininlogs

Sorry don't know how I got two post on here LOL


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## bzrk180

I have read CWG books 1, 2 and 3 and also the 4th one. I have tried to read some of the other ones but they are simply re-caps of 1,2 and 3. I also have 1,2 and 3 on audio and listen to them frequently (well, its been a while..I need to listen to them again)

I would encourage ANYONE to read these books...They opened my eyes to many things and answered many questions I had. I dont see these books as a threat to ANYONE or any faith. The book (IMO) follows the principles of the Bible.

I have turned these books onto others and most love them. The people I have encountered who dont are FIRM in their religious beliefs and wont even finish the books to base an opinion.

I think EVERYONE should read these books!


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## Livininlogs

bzrk does the book not make the statements this article is refering to?

*For instance (and I paraphrase),
when a girl asks the question 'Why am I a lesbian?' His answer is that she
was 'born that way' because of genetics (just as you were born right-handed, 
with brown eyes, etc.). Then he tells her to go out and 'celebrate' her
differences. 

 Another girls poses the question 'I am living with my boyfriend. My parents
say that I should marry him because I am living in sin. Should I marry him?'

His reply is, 'Who are you sinning against? Not me, because you have done
nothing wrong.' 

 Another question asks about God's forgiveness of sin. His reply 'I do not
forgive anyone because there is nothing to forgive. There is no such thing 
as right or wrong and that is what I have been trying to tell everyone, do
not judge people. People have chosen to judge one another and this is wrong,
because the rule is ''judge not lest ye be judged.' *

If it does not I apologize for starting this thread but I tend to listen to James Dobson he tends to be a pretty smart feller


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## bzrk180

Its late and I have had a long day but I want to respond to this...Give me a little time to settle in from the day and I will respond to this... By the end of the workday tomorrow, I will offer my feedback based on what I read and my "interpretation" of what has been stated. I think that we will see it differently but I want to give a response that is deserving of what you are asking for...

Fair?


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## bzrk180

OK...Popcorn is done and I am rested...Let me respond directly in blue below.



Livininlogs said:


> bzrk does the book not make the statements this article is refering to?
> 
> *For instance (and I paraphrase),*
> *when a girl asks the question 'Why am I a lesbian?' His answer is that she*
> *was 'born that way' because of genetics (just as you were born right-handed, *
> *with brown eyes, etc.). Then he tells her to go out and 'celebrate' her*
> *differences. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not read this so I will answer it based on what I know of the books. What CWG states is that God created everything and God is perfect and creates nothing that is "faulty" because that would not serve God or people (God didnt and doesnt make any mess ups or mistakes). Why would an all knowing, all doing, all everything God create something that is faulty? And, if you think about what the Bible teahces, this is true...God does not create mistakes. If you are of the belief that there are no accidents and everything happens for a reason then God has created everything and everyone for a purpose here. God (in regards to the book) created lesbians the same way and God created people to be different so we can learn from each other and differences are to be celebrated, not attacked or judged. Again, to get a grip on what the books speak to and about, one should really read the books themselves because far too much can be taken out of context.*
> 
> *Another girls poses the question 'I am living with my boyfriend. My parents*
> *say that I should marry him because I am living in sin. Should I marry him?' *
> 
> *His reply is, 'Who are you sinning against? Not me, because you have done*
> *nothing wrong.' >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because the book states that there truly is no "sin" that there is no other place to go that Heaven and that you cannot offend God....My interpretation (and kinda what the books state) is that if God is all knowing, all being and all loving and caring...How can one offend God? If can control everything, why woul he allow something to be created that can offend him. Now, this will be arguable here because you really have to read the whole book to understand what I am talking about and I could not begin to elaborate on that here. There is nothing "wrong" in the eyes of God. To say that God can be offended is saying that God has an ego and must be worshiped...This would also make God narracistic (sp?) and once again, that would not be God. I am sure that people can post scripture and lines from the Bible to counter all of this but remember, the Bible was written by men and they were all good writers...EVERY good writer over dramatizes everything...I know this is going to spur controversey because so many folow the Bible as "The Word of God" When in reality, if someone were to step up right now and say "God has spoken to me and here is what he told me" we would think he was CRAZY and discount all he said. Mark, Luke, David...They would be nut jobs in todays time...As a matter of fact, the critics of Neale Donald Walsh say this very thing. Why are we so adimant about believing what those men wrote but so skeptical about what Neal writes...or for that sake, Joseph Smith (and Many follow what he states to be fact)*
> 
> *Another question asks about God's forgiveness of sin. His reply 'I do not*
> *forgive anyone because there is nothing to forgive. There is no such thing *
> *as right or wrong and that is what I have been trying to tell everyone, do*
> *not judge people. People have chosen to judge one another and this is wrong,*
> *because the rule is ''judge not lest ye be judged.' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, this is true...It does state this and the quote from the bible supports this statement. In all reality,there is no "right or wrong"...these terms are subjective... For instance....It used to be "right" for people to sell their children off as basically slaves at one time..This is now wrong. It used to be right to burn withces at the stake..this is now wrong...It used to be right to give Native Americans blankets infected with smallpox..This is now wrong. It used to be right to make black people sit at the backs of busses and drink from different water fountins...this is now wrong. We as a society determine what is right or wrong...Not God. Take for instance our current state now... In MANY cultures it is right for girls as young as 12-14 years old to marry and have children. Our culture says that is wrong. In many cultures, people take natural herbs and plants to have an experience of God...In ourr culture it is wrong. The Muslim faith beleives many things that we say is wrong...so tell me, who is right and who determines that? How could God sit up "there" and make assesments of all of this...We are all "his children" he created every Jew, Christian, Muslim, New Guinie(sp) tribes man, athiest, agnostic, eskimo and none of them are "wrong" and none of them have done anything that begs forgiveness. *
> 
> 
> *I can see its clear that you do not alighn with what is stated in these books and that is fine. But dont do yourself a disservice and not take the time to read about what you dont understand. Dont close yourself off to "possibilities" because this limits your experience here on this planet. God created the world and every single thing in the world and he created it all for us to experience and learn from. I dont believe that a God...Any TRUE God would ever create people to have free will but with that free will you have to abide by his rules or he will judge you and send you to eternal flame...How does that serve God (and how is that FREE will)and what does that say about God?? I think it would best serve people if they were to keep in mind that everything we know is learned...EVERYTHING...and on the day that we pass from this place, we might just find that everything we learned was incorrect.*
> 
> *Here is a quote I have seen...*
> 
> 
> *Is God willing to prevent evil but not able?*
> *Then he is not omnipotent.*
> *Is he able but not willing?*
> *then he is malevolent.*
> *Is he both able and willing?*
> *Then whence cometh evil? *
> *Is he neither able nor willing?*
> *Then why call him God?*
> 
> 
> *Mty feelings is that **there is truly a God but I do not recognize him as what Christianity has built him up to be. God creted us to allow us to experience life. That is all things! How can one know what hot is if they never experience cold? How is one to know what summer is if they never experience winter, understand what dark is without light? How would we ever understand what an atrocity is if atrocities never happened? It is a dualistic world and is perfect...If everything was sunshine, dandylions and puppydogs for ever and ever, what a boring existance this would be. *
> 
> *Yes, celebrate your differences, realize that God has created EVERY SINGLE THING in this world for us to experience it...In regards to the books, there is no way to offend God...To think that you could would be to say that God has an expectaion and for a person to have an expectation, that would require and ego....I dont beleive that an all creating, all being God would require an ego*
> 
> 
> If it does not I apologize for starting this thread but I tend to listen to James Dobson he tends to be a pretty smart feller *>>>>>>>>> Maybe, but he is simply a man with an opinion that is based on Judeo Christian beliefs and understandings...Not that this is wrong, or bad, or whatever...It is his beliefs and does not mean that what he says or teaches is "right"...It certainly isnt right for everyone.*
> 
> 
> *I think you will find in the CWG books that there is no judgment for what you believe or how you choose to live your life. What the books teach is asking you to simply do the same for others. Take care of yourself, live the life for what serves and works for you and concentrate on that and you will have a plentiful life. Dont direct your opinions or force your beliefs on others simply because you see that as the "right" way...Do what works for you and allow others to do the same. Follow what your heart tells you and dont judge others for following theirs...Whether that is to move out with your boyfriend, that you are gay or whatever... If you beleive what you are doing is going to get you into what you beleive as heaven then keep doing that...its not your place to force or judge anyone else for their experience here.*
> 
> 
> *I dont declare that these books are the "gospel" and I dont necissarily believe everything in the books but I do think it offers alot of light on alot of the questions that I have had through my journey in a religious aspect... *
> 
> *I have said it in here before...I was baptised in the Methodist Church, I was a kid in the Baptist Church, I dabbled in the Petacostal Church, I was confirmed Catholic and spent my teen years there, I attended and graduated with my Undergrad and Masters in a Prebeterian Church and though allof these faiths, I have had a hard time following many of the principles taught...When I read these books, things were lined out "matter of fact-ly" and made more sense to me than anything any pator, priest or minister evergave me answers about.*


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## Livininlogs

WOW I think on this one We just need to agree to disagree. For me I will stick to THE BOOK.Praying for you.
Bill


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## bzrk180

Livininlogs said:


> WOW I think on this one We just need to agree to disagree. For me I will stick to THE BOOK.Praying for you.
> Bill


Fair enough... Keep with what works for you! Thanks for the interaction.


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## Mrs Backlasher

Just getting around to reading this.

There is a way that *seems* right to a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death.

We are to trust in God, not in man. God wanted to show himself to us. He revealed himself to us by coming into the world in the form of an infant - Jesus. (This is why we celebrate "Christmas" by the way.) The death of Jesus on the cross satisfied the penalty for our sins and transgressions. And yes, God is offended by our sins. If we are confused about what sin is, we can find out by reading what he has revealed to mankind in the Bible.

It is not good to set oneself above God. In fact, that is the essence of sin.

From birth, we are in bondage to sin and we don't even know it. We cannot know it, unless the Spirit of God reveals it to us. When he reveals it to us, if we call on Jesus to deliver us from our sinful state, then we will come to know liberation! All is forgiven and we have a right standing before God and a right relationship with him as his children. Before that time, we are not his children, but only his creation. Believe me, God KNOWS his children, and his children KNOW him. Personally. So there is no matter that some unknowingly refer to us as "nut cases."

God DOES speak to his children. I've been knowing him personally since 1972. When he speaks to me, it is not aloud as you and I speak to each other. But he communicates to us internally. He never violates his own word previously given in Scripture. In fact, that's one way we can KNOW whether the message we've received is from God or is from the devil who wants to deceive us.

Yes, Virginia, there IS a devil. It is to the devil's great advantage if you don't believe in him. That way, he can lead you astray at his pleasure. The devil is called "the accuser of the brethren."

Those of us who know the living God are not dissuaded by the worldly wisdom and educated ignorance of those who propose to "stand in" for God and in his name give ungodly answers to supposedly sincere questions by God-seekers.

It just reminds us that the second coming of Jesus is closer than we had thought.

Mrs. B


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## bzrk180

*Back to Mrs. B*

Mrs. B...I want to respond to this but want you to be assure that I am not attacking your faith. I think that if your belief system works for you then that is a wonderful thing. I do not believe that anyone that thinks differently than you is dammed to eternal fire and brimstone. That argument does not hold weight in my opinion. Happy you have found something that you can find value in. Good for you, (truly) Many never seem to find that matter where they look!



> There is a way that *seems* right to a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death.


Not sure I undrstand this statement...Can you elaborate please?



> We are to trust in God, not in man.


I am pretty sure that all of the books support this. I cannot recall a portion of any of the books that state otherwise. It does state that you should trust yourself though (paraphrased of course)



> God wanted to show himself to us. He revealed himself to us by coming into the world in the form of an infant - Jesus.


And I am not sure that I believe all of this in the Biblical sense. There are many arguments on this issue. It is sensless to argue this point with those who do believe. I find it a hard pill to swallow. The books state that we are all portions of God, we are all capable of what Jesus did (as he stated himself apparenty..."All of these things I have done, you can do and more"). I also am aware that some would consider this blasphemy and again, I am not here to offend.



> (This is why we celebrate "Christmas" by the way.)


Another arguable belief. Christmas was started as a Pagan Holiday (which many holidays were started that way as well as dayys of the week etc...). Christmas symbology was borrowed from pagan religions seems unarguable. Christmas trees - pine trees decorated with lights and ornaments - were used in Yule and solstice celebrations. The Yule log is a direct transplant, even keeping the name of the pagan religion's holiday. It is obvious that many Christmas decorations have their roots in paganism.

Even the time of the Christmas holiday has roots in the winter solstice celebration. As some pagans celebrate the return of the sun, often described as the birth of the sun king to a nature goddess, Christians celebrate the birth of the son of God. *Bible historians* make a case for the actual birth of Jesus in the spring. The church decided to celebrate Christmas at the time of the winter solstice, perhaps to coincide with the existing pagan celebrations.

Another Christmas tradition is kissing under the Msitletoe...This is also a pagan belief formed around a Norse Goddess...Many of our "Christian" celebrations were born from Pagan beliefs.



> The death of Jesus on the cross satisfied the penalty for our sins and transgressions.


Actually, history tells us the REASON Christ died on the cross was because he was a traitor to Rome. Also, remember that none of the life of Christ was documented until almost 30 years AFTER his death. 30 years is a long time, writers are dramatic people and those who believed in Christ and his message as "The Word" would most definately dramatize his life. Also, 30 years is a long time to recalll actuall events...Can you think back and remember *every step* of someone special in your life 30 years ago and document that accurately and intricately ?



> And yes, God is offended by our sins.


If God created everything and everyone and everything in this world and has the ability to end it all at any time, why would he be offended at anything...What would be the purpose? I mean if he is offended by a thing, why not just stop a thing from happening...Why would he continue to be offended? That makes no sense to me and again, this states that God has an ego.



> If we are confused about what sin is, we can find out by reading what he has revealed to mankind in the Bible.


God, never wrote anything in the Bible. People who claim that God spoke to them wrote those things. Also, lets state this is the case...Have you ever played the game "telephone"? The more filters a story goes through, the more it falls apart. These people who wrote the Bible were human yes? Also, the Bible and the stories in it were selected to be in in by groups of men, councils.



> It is not good to set oneself above God.


And again, the books support this. In all reality, how is that possible? How can one ever set themselves "above God"?



> In fact, that is the essence of sin.


If its not possible to set onself above God than this alone states that sin isnt possible.



> From birth, we are in bondage to sin and we don't even know it.


Why? Why would God put a beautiful baby on this planet bound in something that will only bring them to "Hell"? Why would a true God create something as a failure and then HOPE he would overcome that. That is what God is to you? I dont see it that way and the books do not alighn with this.



> We cannot know it, unless the Spirit of God reveals it to us When he reveals it to us, if we call on Jesus to deliver us from our sinful state, then we will come to know liberation!


Sooooo, every person on this planet, every Child of God that does not believe this or maybe even *knows* of Christ (and there are many cultures still on this planet that know nothing of Jesus Christ)...All of those people are dam ned to hell and have no chance of ever reaching Heven? Buddhists, Krishnas, African tribesmen, the little pigmys in New Guinie(sp?), Native American Indians, all of them (and MANY others) are destined to eternal flame and condemnation? Again, this is a hard thing to grasp for me...I simply cannot beleive that a loving and caring God would have people born into where they are in this world only to make sure there are going to be souls for sure to burn in Hell...that is not a God I would want to follow.



> and All is forgiven and we have a right standing before God and a right relationship with him as his children.


We are "right" from creation. We are ALL his children!



> Before that time, we are not his children, but only his creation.


You support this statement how? Didnt Christ himself state we are ALL children of God?

So, lets look at an apple pie... If you take a slice of apple pie and put it on a plate, what do you have? Apple pie right? So didnt God create us all in his own image? Are you saying that his image of us is just blobs until we decide to worship him and accept him and praise his holy name? If he is *THE* God, the one and only God, why would he have to have worship (that makes him narcassistic)? What would be the purpose? Again, to fill an ego? And as I stated above, MANY people on this planet are NEVER exposed to Christian beliefs so they all die and burn in hell? Christianity has been around for 2000 years or so...What about all of the people that lived before that time, they are in Hell too?

It is believed by some researchers that the people who built stonehenge was a civilization of druids or pagans that lived for over 2000 years and at the time were the strongest culture (and a peaceful one) in the world...All them, they are in Hell now too? A very hard pill for me to swallow for sure and not representative of what I would see as God or what many people who are Christians state God is.



> Believe me, God KNOWS his children, and his children KNOW him


Believe you why? Your KNOWING is any more strong that the writer of this book because????.



> Personally. So there is no matter that some unknowingly refer to us as "nut cases."


I didnt call you a nut case nor do the books ever label ANYONE as a nutcase. Buuuut, I am sure there are many out there who would label Neale Donald Walsh a nutcase...Joseph Smith a nutcase, Buddah a nutcase, etc....The books NEVER label anyone as such. Like I stated before, the God the books speak of and the God I believe in accepts everyone...Created us from love....Loves us *unconditionally *and is not offended of the simplicities of man... The universe is so much bigger than what takes place on this little rock called Earth.



> God DOES speak to his children. I've been knowing him personally since 1972. When he speaks to me, it is not aloud as you and I speak to each other. But he communicates to us internally.


I have never heard "Gods voice" and I have been saved, Baptised and searched for that voice.

Where I do hear him is when I am in the woods and I hear the wind blow through the trees...When I hear the running of a river or the rain outside. I hear him when I am riding my bike through the rolling hills and the wind is blowing past and in my face...Not only do I hear him, I feel him! God is in everything and all of what you see is of and a part of God...The books elaborate on this and I, through an experience as profound as what you hear as a voice, believe this.



> He never violates his own word previously given in Scripture.


Scripture was written by men, editied by other men and decided on by even other men. These are words of MEN, not of "God"



> In fact, that's one way we can KNOW whether the message we've received is from God or is from the devil who wants to deceive us.


Because its in the Bible? Well Mrs. B.... The Bible, scripture, all of those are interpreted many different ways. Scripture is interpreted by Catholics much differently thatn by Baptists. Joe Olsteen interprates scripture Differently than Jerry Falwell.... The religous leader listed in this post interpates scripture much differently that Reverend Wright...So, tell me, which interpretaion is the "Right" one?



Code:


Yes, Virginia, there IS a devil. It is to the devil's great advantage if you don't believe in him.

The "Devil" even at the time Christ waklked the eart was a "radical" idea and belief system. And why would an all knowing, all doing, all creating God create such a creature and if he did, why not snap his fingers and make him gone? The Devil and Hell were created to instill fear in people so they would follow whatever was said to keep them from him. What purpose would a devil have in Gods plan?



> That way, he can lead you astray at his pleasure.


I do NOT believe in the Devil and feel that I live a pretty "christian" type life. I do my best to serve others (as a matter of fact,have done so for over half my life) I respect others and work very hard to keep from judgment (although that can be tough sometimes). I give to those in need, I give thanks for the things I have and stay grateful to all of those things... I dont bash others for what they believe and care about people (because "God fogive them because they simply dont understand" right?)... I will however argue and debate on issues.



> Those of us who know the living God are not dissuaded by the worldly wisdom and educated ignorance of those who propose to "stand in" for God


So you are "right" and everyone else is wrong? Eduaction creates ignorance? Who is it exactly you are speaking of that is claiming they are "standing in for God?"



> and in his name give ungodly answers to supposedly sincere questions by God-seekers.


If you are speaking of Neale Donald Walsh then let me ask you... Why is God not allowed to speak through him to deliver a message but all of those in the Bible were? What makes his answers "ungodly" but those others who claim God spoke to them to deliver a message "Godly"?



> It just reminds us that the second coming of Jesus is closer than we had thought


.

Almost every recorded culture throughout time has been apocolyptic. Christ has been coming back for a VERY long time. The end of the earth has been considered for many years before Christ. Another hard pill to swallow.

Again Mrs. B...I surely dont want to attack your faith or your belief...I am happy that you have found where your faith is. However, just because it is what you believe, it does not mean everyone else is doomed to eternal damnation because they believe differently.

Everything you know of God, of his message..It has all been learned through the filters of others and could very possibly be "wrong". But as these books say, pay attention to your results...If the results you are getting are serving you and your path here, keep up the good work. It doesnt mean that others will get or want those same results or even enjoy the same path.

Merry Christmas and thanks for the dialog.

Peace...Brad


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## spotsndots

Wow....I side with Mrs. B and Livininlogs on this one all the way. BZ all I can say repectfully is that your view of Christianity is off base...one quick comment on your statement "However, just because it is what you believe, it does not mean everyone else is doomed to eternal damnation because they believe differently" 

If a person doesn't believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your salvation then it's pretty hard for me to comprehend how they could call themselves a Christian. As Christians we believe there is only 1 way to heaven and as harsh as it may sound...if you don't believe you are doomed to eternal damnation.


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## bzrk180

Respectfully....



> spotsndots said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....I side with Mrs. B and Livininlogs on this one all the way. BZ all I can say repectfully is that your view of Christianity is off base...
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, people think there are "sides". I dont feel that there has to be. We are all in this together.
> 
> I dont think it is that far off base either...We havent discussed my views of "Christianity" but only my views in regards to these statements posted here and the books that have been listed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a person doesn't believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your salvation then it's pretty hard for me to comprehend how they could call themselves a Christian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Based on historical information (which the Bible isnt really), Christ died on the cross because he was a traitor to Rome..because he was seen as "radical" and against Rome. He was not hung up there by those people to bring salvation...followers of Christ assigned that to Christ dying there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Christians we believe there is only 1 way to heaven and as harsh as it may sound...if you don't believe you are doomed to eternal damnation
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, RESPECTFULLY, I disagree with you on this but am totally fine with what you believe and what your faith tells you. I think even the *idea *of "eternal damnation" is directly opposed to what God stands for.
> 
> I also dont believe that every Native American, every indigenous African tribesman, every Eskimo, Aboriginal, Buddhist, and every living person who was here before Christianity or raised outside of Christian beliefs in place is now in (or going too) a place called Hell, and suffering eternal damnation.
> 
> If that were true, what does that say about *their* (our) creator? Remember, there is only one right?
Click to expand...


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## Mrs Backlasher

Brad,

My faith is in a person. That person is Jesus. I know him and he knows me. We communicate. There is no pretending or wishful thinking in our relationship. He has shown me the Father. He is the lover of my soul. He is the one who has provided for all my needs, now and in eternity. During the past 37 years of our relationship, he has proven himself to me again and again. He is worthy of my trust. He is trustworthy.

He is worthy of your trust, too.

The answers you seek are in the Bible. Put aside the fact that God used men to put the ink on the pages. Read the words without preconceived notions. Ask God to open your eyes. Jesus is alive forevermore and will answer your questions. I highly recommend him to you.

Mrs. B


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## bzrk180

Mrs. B,

I appreciate your faith and your concern but be assured, my relationship with God is soild and working. I am happy that your faith is solid and working for you. I have searched many places, many religions and listened to many Preachers, Priests and Reverends... Have no concerns for me, I am content in my relationship, faith and understanding of God.

My interaction here was to elaborate on the books that were in question and my feelings in relataionship to those books, if I branched outside of that, I apologize...I can tend to ramble sometimes.

I am not here to offend or condemn anyone for what or how they believe...I am not the judge for this. I hope I am offered the same respect. 

Peace....Brad


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## Livininlogs

Thank you for posting here Mrs. B. you are so more more eloquent in you answers than I. I have been on evenings for a month and been brain numb for the last two weeks but now I will try to atleast respond to some of your statements bz. My replies are in purple and undelined

Originally Posted by *Livininlogs*  
_bzrk does the book not make the statements this article is refering to?_​
_*For instance (and I paraphrase),*_
_*when a girl asks the question 'Why am I a lesbian?' His answer is that she*_
_*was 'born that way' because of genetics (just as you were born right-handed, *_
_*with brown eyes, etc.). Then he tells her to go out and 'celebrate' her*_
_*differences. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not read this so I will answer it based on what I know of the books. What CWG states is that God created everything and God is perfect and creates nothing that is "faulty" because that would not serve God or people (God didnt and doesnt make any mess ups or mistakes). Why would an all knowing, all doing, all everything God create something that is faulty? And, if you think about what the Bible teahces, this is true...God does not create mistakes. If you are of the belief that there are no accidents and everything happens for a reason then God has created everything and everyone for a purpose here. God (in regards to the book) created lesbians the same way and God created people to be different so we can learn from each other and differences are to be celebrated, not attacked or judged. Again, to get a grip on what the books speak to and about, one should really read the books themselves because far too much can be taken out of context.*_
_*So we should open our arms and embrace phedaphils, rapiest, wife beaters, murderers. By your words God does not create mistakes. So we should celebrate these differances and not attack or judge them.*_
_*Another girls poses the question 'I am living with my boyfriend. My parents*_
_*say that I should marry him because I am living in sin. Should I marry him?' *_​
_*His reply is, 'Who are you sinning against? Not me, because you have done*_
_*nothing wrong.' >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because the book states that there truly is no "sin" that there is no other place to go that Heaven and that you cannot offend God....My interpretation (and kinda what the books state) is that if God is all knowing, all being and all loving and caring...How can one offend God? If can control everything, why woul he allow something to be created that can offend him. Now, this will be arguable here because you really have to read the whole book to understand what I am talking about and I could not begin to elaborate on that here. There is nothing "wrong" in the eyes of God. To say that God can be offended is saying that God has an ego and must be worshiped...This would also make God narracistic (sp?) and once again, that would not be God. I am sure that people can post scripture and lines from the Bible to counter all of this but remember, the Bible was written by men and they were all good writers...EVERY good writer over dramatizes everything...I know this is going to spur controversey because so many folow the Bible as "The Word of God" When in reality, if someone were to step up right now and say "God has spoken to me and here is what he told me" we would think he was CRAZY and discount all he said. Mark, Luke, David...They would be nut jobs in todays time...As a matter of fact, the critics of Neale Donald Walsh say this very thing. Why are we so adimant about believing what those men wrote but so skeptical about what Neal writes...or for that sake, Joseph Smith (and Many follow what he states to be fact)*_
_*The Great I AM does not have to have an ego. He is the creator of all and being that has expectations of his children. Our God is Merciful BUT you stay from him and do not meet his expectations Our God will put you in time out, slap your hand,basily punish you for you misdoings.*_
_*Another question asks about God's forgiveness of sin. His reply 'I do not*_
_*forgive anyone because there is nothing to forgive. There is no such thing *_
_*as right or wrong and that is what I have been trying to tell everyone, do*_
_*not judge people. People have chosen to judge one another and this is wrong,*_
_*because the rule is ''judge not lest ye be judged.' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, this is true...It does state this and the quote from the bible supports this statement. In all reality,there is no "right or wrong"...these terms are subjective... For instance....It used to be "right" for people to sell their children off as basically slaves at one time..This is now wrong. It used to be right to burn withces at the stake..this is now wrong...It used to be right to give Native Americans blankets infected with smallpox..This is now wrong. It used to be right to make black people sit at the backs of busses and drink from different water fountins...this is now wrong. We as a society determine what is right or wrong...Not God. Take for instance our current state now... In MANY cultures it is right for girls as young as 12-14 years old to marry and have children. Our culture says that is wrong. In many cultures, people take natural herbs and plants to have an experience of God...In ourr culture it is wrong. The Muslim faith beleives many things that we say is wrong...so tell me, who is right and who determines that? How could God sit up "there" and make assesments of all of this...We are all "his children" he created every Jew, Christian, Muslim, New Guinie(sp) tribes man, athiest, agnostic, eskimo and none of them are "wrong" and none of them have done anything that begs forgiveness. *_
_*Nothing here makes any sense. Nowhere Nowhere did I say NOWHERE in Gods Eyes has any of these things you listed been acceptable. Here you are trying to impose Mans laws (or practices during certian periods of time) into Gods laws. *_
_*The selected scripture "Judge lest not you be Judged" a part taken frm a whole. If you read this line in contexts Jesus is saying how can you condemn sin if you yourself are a sinner,*_
_*This is like all parents reciting (Ephesians 6) Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 "Honor your father and mother"--this is the first commandment with a promise: 3 "so that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth." 4 And, fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. You have to read it all. Thats the trouble with worldly people using the bible to prove a point it is not used in it's entirity. Now I know you will say I am paraphraing from this book in question. *_
_*I can see its clear that you do not alighn with what is stated in these books and that is fine. But dont do yourself a disservice and not take the time to read about what you dont understand. Dont close yourself off to "possibilities" because this limits your experience here on this planet. God created the world and every single thing in the world and he created it all for us to experience and learn from. I dont believe that a God...Any TRUE God would ever create people to have free will but with that free will you have to abide by his rules or he will judge you and send you to eternal flame...How does that serve God (and how is that FREE will)and what does that say about God?? I think it would best serve people if they were to keep in mind that everything we know is learned...EVERYTHING...and on the day that we pass from this place, we might just find that everything we learned was incorrect.*_​
_*well bz tell you what when these books have been around for two thousand years then we can dig in and see what they have to say,*_​
_*Here is a quote I have seen...*_​
_*Is God willing to prevent evil but not able?*_
_*Then he is not omnipotent.*_
_*Is he able but not willing?*_
_*then he is malevolent.*_
_*Is he both able and willing?*_
_*Then whence cometh evil? *_
_*Is he neither able nor willing?*_
_*Then why call him God?*_​
_*Mty feelings is that **there is truly a God but I do not recognize him as what Christianity has built him up to be. God creted us to allow us to experience life. That is all things! How can one know what hot is if they never experience cold? How is one to know what summer is if they never experience winter, understand what dark is without light? How would we ever understand what an atrocity is if atrocities never happened? It is a dualistic world and is perfect...If everything was sunshine, dandylions and puppydogs for ever and ever, what a boring existance this would be. *_​
_*Yes, celebrate your differences, realize that God has created EVERY SINGLE THING in this world for us to experience it...In regards to the books, there is no way to offend God...To think that you could would be to say that God has an expectaion and for a person to have an expectation, that would require and ego....I dont beleive that an all creating, all being God would require an ego*_​
_If it does not I apologize for starting this thread but I tend to listen to James Dobson he tends to be a pretty smart feller *>>>>>>>>> Maybe, but he is simply a man with an opinion that is based on Judeo Christian beliefs and understandings...Not that this is wrong, or bad, or whatever...It is his beliefs and does not mean that what he says or teaches is "right"...It certainly isnt right for everyone.*_​
_*I think you will find in the CWG books that there is no judgment for what you believe or how you choose to live your life. What the books teach is asking you to simply do the same for others. Take care of yourself, live the life for what serves and works for you and concentrate on that and you will have a plentiful life. Dont direct your opinions or force your beliefs on others simply because you see that as the "right" way...Do what works for you and allow others to do the same. Follow what your heart tells you and dont judge others for following theirs...Whether that is to move out with your boyfriend, that you are gay or whatever... If you beleive what you are doing is going to get you into what you beleive as heaven then keep doing that...its not your place to force or judge anyone else for their experience here.*_​
_*I dont declare that these books are the "gospel" and I dont necissarily believe everything in the books but I do think it offers alot of light on alot of the questions that I have had through my journey in a religious aspect... *_​
_*I have said it in here before...I was baptised in the Methodist Church, I was a kid in the Baptist Church, I dabbled in the Petacostal Church, I was confirmed Catholic and spent my teen years there, I attended and graduated with my Undergrad and Masters in a Prebeterian Church and though allof these faiths, I have had a hard time following many of the principles taught...When I read these books, things were lined out "matter of fact-ly" and made more sense to me than anything any pator, priest or minister evergave me answers about.*_​
_*I think I'll wrap this up here. bz you have listed you life growing up in the church but when did you accept Jesus Crist as your Savior? When did you get on your knees and give yourself to Jesus. August 27, 1998 Hopper Field in Freeport Texas. You see bz when God speaks to you you listen ans I will never forget that day. I have had my high and low BUT Jesus always took me back.*_​
_*God does give us free will because he wants us to freely accept his love and protection. People have a tendancy turn thier back on God when things go bad but the one thing a Christian has to bring them through is Faith. I read something a few days ago. As christians our life is full of bumps. Does God give us these bumps to see how much faith we have? No God Knows us he knows how much faith we have. He gives us these bumps to show US how much Faith we have. You know it's real easy to see an feel god out on the bay in the morning, riding a bike through the hills in the stand on a crisp winter morning. But can you feel God when you get laid off or sitting in the doctors office being told you have prostrate cancer. bz God is there always but his son Never promised us all mornings on the bay when we accepted him as our Savior. Any one that would say God tells us if it feels good do it could and should be classified as a false profiet. If I have to pick one word that decribes the strength of a Christian it would be FAITH. Yes bz there is a devil how do I know the Bible says so. Why should I believe the Bible, It's the word of God. How do I know My faith tells me. God speaks to me through my faith. You may try but you will never be able to argue faith No amount college credits or degrees will ever be able prove or disprove it's existance. Faith has no substance but it is stronger than anything in this world we are in right now. *_​


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## bzrk180

Livinlogs....Thanks for the response. I will do my best to answer your questions below



> Originally Posted by *Livininlogs*
> _*So we should open our arms and embrace phedaphils, rapiest, wife beaters, murderers. By your words God does not create mistakes. So we should celebrate these differances and not attack or judge them.*_​


Very good questions and I could not do the books justice by trying to paraphrase here. There is an answer to this in book 1 but I dont think I could try to explain how the book does explain it here. Again, I encourage you to read the book and take the info in there as you will. Its just a book and doesnt mean that everything in it is truth.

Now, if you are asking me...I dont think God makes mistakes and I think we should celebrate differences and I think that the good book itslef tells us not to judge others doesnt it?

Now, do I embrace pedophiles, wife beaters and murderers... No, I have a hard time embracing these actions. I have seen FARRRR to much of this first hand. Let me ask you this though...

If you are Christian and believe all of the words of Christ and the Bible, let me ask you "WWJD" (What Would Jesus Do) with these "lost souls?"

_*



The Great I AM does not have to have an ego. He is the creator of all and being that has expectations of his children. Our God is Merciful BUT you stay from him and do not meet his expectations Our God will put you in time out, slap your hand,basily punish you for you misdoings.

Click to expand...

*_ 
OK, good question... If he is the "GREAT I AM" and the creator of all, that means he created it ALL...Why would he give us free will with an expectation? That does not make sense to me.

"You have free will to live the life you want but with these restrictions"

How is this FREE will? Also, if God is all creating (created *EVERYTHING...EV-RE-THING*) How can one stray from him...There is NOTHING else there is no where to stray too


_*



Nothing here makes any sense. Nowhere Nowhere did I say NOWHERE in Gods Eyes has any of these things you listed been acceptable. Here you are trying to impose Mans laws (or practices during certian periods of time) into Gods laws.

Click to expand...

*_ 
Doesnt the Bible encourage us to obey mans law? Also, like I have stated before in here...God himself has never stated anything. Men who claim they have spoken to God claim these things to be Gods law. And then other men chose which ones were truly Gods law and which werent (the various councils throught time that have determined what is supposed to be in the Bible).

I am a poor person to try and tell you word for word what the CWG books state. I have read them a couple of times and listed to them on CD a number of times but I dont claim to be an expert... I do know that they are thought provoking and many parts make more sense that others. If you are "Up" on the Bible and all of what it says, I encourage you to read the books and then make your assessmnet...I am not a Biblical scholar nor have I ever claimed to be.

_*



The selected scripture "Judge lest not you be Judged" a part taken frm a whole. If you read this line in contexts Jesus is saying how can you condemn sin if you yourself are a sinner,

Click to expand...

*_ 
Which we all are right? Thats why we have to constantly ask for retribution, why we go to confession, why we ask for forgiveness right? Are you saying that once you walk out of a confessional, you have the right to pass judgment?

_*



This is like all parents reciting (Ephesians 6) Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 "Honor your father and mother"--this is the first commandment with a promise: 3 "so that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth." 4 And, fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. You have to read it all. 

Click to expand...

*_ 
And as I have said it here...Many HAVE read it all and everyones interpretation of it is different...So explain to me, which interpretation is the "right" one?

_*



Thats the trouble with worldly people using the bible to prove a point it is not used in it's entirity. Now I know you will say I am paraphraing from this book in question.

Click to expand...

*_ 
No, I will take your word that what you say is accurate but if paraphrasing is what you are doing then how is it you are doing anything differently than "Worldly People." Everyone uses the Bible or whatever book they read to support their beliefs. And everyone "interprates" those words in those books to support what they are saying or trying to tell others.

_*



well bz tell you what when these books have been around for two thousand years then we can dig in and see what they have to say

Click to expand...

*_ 
I am not here to attak the Bible or to belittle your beliefs. If the Bible is what you choose to follow and follow that one piece of literature alone to live your life then by all means, more power to you. 

I choose to base my experience here on Earth with the use of numerous sources. I think the Bible is a fatastic guidebook...I do not however feel it is the ONLY one. If you choose not to look at anything, even if it is just to get an opinion, I feel that limits your possibility and seeing the world "larger." Again, I am not here to judge, I just choose differently.​
​
_*



I think I'll wrap this up here. bz you have listed you life growing up in the church but when did you accept Jesus Crist as your Savior?

Click to expand...

*_ 
Cant remember the day but it was in November 1987 in a small church in Colorado Springs Colorado

_*



You see bz when God speaks to you you listen

Click to expand...

*_ 
Agreed!! I will give you an example of how this happened to me here recently. 

I was having a very bad day...My father had called and stated he was diagnosed with cancer. I had found out that an old friend had passed and I got into a conflict with my professor that day. I taught a class that day and had a terrible experience. I was driving home and cussing the day outloud. I was complianing about how life sucked and things were so
 cra ppy and I as I made the turn in the hills to go to my house, there was a rainbow right in front of me...Not a whole rainbow but just a portion of one hanging in the sky, right in my immediate view....

I saw that, pulled over, shut up and looked up to the sky and said "I hear ya" and changed my attitude. 

The next day I had a person who I have not seen in MANY years come forward and offer me a flight to see my Father for free. I had two people from here (this site) send me checks to go see my father. My professor and I ran into each other at the store and made ammends and I realized that the class had fallen apart because of me, not my students...

Yes, when God speaks, I listen!

_*



I will never forget that day. I have had my high and low BUT Jesus always took me back.

Click to expand...

*_ 
That is a blessing in and of itself, I agree. I am glad that you find your ways out of the dark times to get you back on track. I dont necissarily do it like you do...I guess I am wrong for that...However, it works for me and I think I will stick with what works, just as you will!​
_*







God does give us free will because he wants us to freely accept his love and protection.

Click to expand...



Click to expand...

*_


> With limits right? I dont see that as FREE WILL...Not that I attack you for you beliefs...Its simply different than mine (on this point anyway).
> 
> 
> _*
> 
> 
> 
> People have a tendancy turn thier back on God when things go bad but the one thing a Christian has to bring them through is Faith
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> Click to expand...
> 
> *_
> And I think that is a great thing! Faith is a HUGE thing and Faith can be looked at on many differing levels.
> 
> 
> _*
> 
> 
> 
> I read something a few days ago. As christians our life is full of bumps. Does God give us these bumps to see how much faith we have? No God Knows us he knows how much faith we have. He gives us these bumps to show US how much Faith we have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *_I agree again on this...Have you seen that new comedy out about Noah and the ark (cant remember the name of it) and the guy playing Noah askes God for "patience". When he does things start to go CRAZY in his life. When he finally meets God and askes him why he didnt answer his prayers God told him.. "I answerd in a huge way, didnt you see...I sent you things to learn patience from..How else did you expect to get it" (paraphrased of course).
> 
> I thought that was really a great analogy!
> 
> _*
> 
> 
> 
> You know it's real easy to see an feel god out on the bay in the morning, riding a bike through the hills in the stand on a crisp winter morning. But can you feel God when you get laid off or sitting in the doctors office being told you have prostrate cancer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *_
> Yes, as a matter of fact I can. Read what I stated above.. I see God in EVERYTHING!! There is a portion of God working in every instance on this earth...From the house fire on the news last night, to the missing child on the Amber Alert to my father having cancer. I believe God works in and through every good time and every obstacle! The reason I beleive this is beacuse there is no place God "is not"
> 
> 
> _*
> 
> 
> 
> bz God is there always but his son Never promised us all mornings on the bay when we accepted him as our Savior. Any one that would say God tells us if it feels good do it could and should be classified as a false profiet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *_
> OK...I understand your thoughts and beliefs. I also understand that there are hard times. BUT, the hard times are there to create and have us appreciate the good times. As a matter of fact, if it was ALWAYS a good time, how would we know it was good? There has to be a comparrison for us to understand this. Now, when you can find the "feel good" in the hard times, does that make me or anyone else a false prophet?
> 
> When my father called with Cancer...That was scary and painful but I found great joy in knowing I was going to be by his side soon. When I get a kid that comes to me that has been abused, I feel great pain in regards to that but I feel great comfort in knowing I will be the one that stands for him. When my kids fail or fall, I suffer because I dont want them to be hurt but find great accomplishmnet in knowing that I will be able to support them and help them find their way through it.
> 
> Its all about how you view it in my opinion. I can choose to stay focused on the bad things or find the great things that can come form any instance and turn my focus to that. Is this "false"? To me, I see this as the gifts of God...Like many here say, there is nothing God puts before us that we cannot handle and I belive that so I always look for the positive (or try to) in ANY and ALL situations. To me, and realisticly,THIS is the "feel good, do it" mentality. Your interpretaion is simply different than mine.
> 
> 
> _*
> 
> 
> 
> If I have to pick one word that decribes the strength of a Christian it would be FAITH.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *_
> And that my friend, I DO have. I have been in the social working field for half my life (over that really) in Police work 10 years, some time working in Re-hab work and now as a "Child Abuse Prevention Specialist" If I did not have faith, I would crumble under what I have experienced in my time. FAITH is what makes me continue to go to work. Again, my faith is multi layered and spread across a multitude of things..All of which I believe are parts of God.
> 
> 
> _*
> 
> 
> 
> Yes bz there is a devil how do I know the Bible says so. Why should I believe the Bible, It's the word of God. How do I know My faith tells me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *_
> Then by all means, continue on the path that serves you. I choose things a bit differently(I think I have covered that here). If your faith tells you this then by all means, KEEP THE FAITH!!
> 
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> _*
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> God speaks to me through my faith. You may try but you will never be able to argue faith No amount college credits or degrees will ever be able prove or disprove it's existance.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> *_
> Not sure where I led you to think I felt otherwise. My faith is strong...I will argue that it is as strong as yours if not moreso but I dont identify it or place it all in the same places you do. I never have argued to disclaim faith or say it doesnt exist. Again, I am not sure whre you are getting this from.
> 
> _*
> 
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> Faith has no substance but it is stronger than anything in this world we are in right now.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> *_
> And again, we will agree to disagree... I feel faith has much substance! I see faith in my family, in my kids, in the people I work with...The accomplishment I, my family and those I work with show me that FAITH is a VERY real thing! I see Faith on many levels...The wife that has been beaen and has no place to go but with faith she overcomes...That is VERY real and has MUCH substance...
> 
> The Little child I work with who has been sexually assaulted and then thrown into a shelter because his family doesnt want him anymore then later graduates from High School with Honors and goes onto college because his FAITH that life can and will be bigger than those things is VERY real and has much substance...
> 
> My daughter who has two children she is raising herself with no help from a deadbeat dad and asks for very little help from us who moved from Housrton to get her kids out of the invironment they are in and now she is on her own, a full time college student and is at this moment on a plane coming back from Vegas ALL DONE ON HER OWN because of FAITH is VERY real and has much substance.
> 
> Livin, we might not see the world through the same eyes but I think the things we look at are similar. Because I stepped up in here and made statements in regards to a book you posted on here as "evil" people have made and formed opinions of me that they have no idea about. I am bigger than what you see in these forums and have much more depth to me that what many might want to believe. I do believe in God and I do believe in his power. I choose not to limit my experience of God to one book and one book only...To me, that puts a limit on God and a limit on my experience here.
> 
> Again, thanks for the dialog...I have enjoyed the time spent on this.
> 
> Merry Christmas!
> 
> Peace....Brad


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## Outdoorjunke

BZRK
 I would like to encourage you to take a look at the DVD THE CASE FOR CRHIST it will answer a lot of your historical questions. I believe you would fine the documentary very interesting. I would also like to try to shed some light on the whole if GOD made all, all is good thing. God created all, including man you agree on this but GOD also created FREE WILL which gives everyone a choice. If not for FREE WILL all would be pointless. If everyone when around saying I love you and meant it love would mean nothing. Also children are not subject to hell read the book and you would know this. Also people that have never been exposed to Christ AND I MEEN NEVER in no way shape or form are not subject to hell. If you would please watch the DVD and PM tell me what you think. Thank you


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## BATWING

oh my !!! I need to go to church...

If lovin the Lord is wrong... I dont wanna be right....


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## bzrk180

> Outdoorjunke said:
> 
> 
> 
> BZRK
> I would like to encourage you to take a look at the DVD THE CASE FOR CRHIST it will answer a lot of your historical questions.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you rent this or do you have to purchase it? I have never heard of it, I will see if I can find it...Thanks!
> 
> 
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> God created all, including man you agree on this but GOD also created FREE WILL which gives everyone a choice.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I do agree that we have free will. What I have argued before in relationship to this along with christian beliefs is that if its truly "FREE" will then why are there consequences if you dont do it like the book says? Is that really "Free Will"? You have a choice BUT if you choose wrong, you burn for eternity??? Doesnt make sense to me.
> 
> 
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> 
> Also children are not subject to hell read the book and you would know this.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which book? I have spoken to people who state they have read THE book many times and I have heard many different things in regards to this... Children that arent baptised are subject to Hell, or Purgatory, or whatever... We are born as sinners...etc...
> 
> I have only read portions of the bible so I am no expert here but as I have stated before, those people who HAVE read the bible, they all seem to have a different interpretation of it.
> 
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> Also people that have never been exposed to Christ AND I MEEN NEVER in no way shape or form are not subject to hell.
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> So, with what you are saying is that you are fine as long as you dont know anything about Christianity but as soon as you have been exposed in any way, you must then accept Christ or burn eternally?
> 
> I think you will find many would disagree with you in regards to this. Many people believe if you do not claim Christ as your lord and savior and that he was sacrificed for your sins, you will NOT go to Heaven... And that goes for EVERYONE.
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> If you would please watch the DVD and PM tell me what you think.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> I will see if I can find it...Thanks for the tip!
Click to expand...


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## Outdoorjunke

I will reply may take some time for research.


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## Outdoorjunke

I sand corrected everyone must go though the son to get to the father.
And as for the children it does not give a specific age but in 2nd Samuel David states that he will be reunited with his son.


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## fishinmajician

I just got around to reading this and while I respect your right to have a differant opinion BRZK, there is no way that you are right with GOD from a christian perspective. And "history" did not prove that CHRIST was crucified because he was a traitor to Rome. In fact, Pontious Pilot found Christ not guilty of any crime. Christ was turned back over to the sanhedrin after Pilot literally washed his hands of JESUS and stated that he didn't want his blood on hands. The sanhedrin used the excuse of a traitor because even they could not convict Christ. Oh, and this "history" is clearly recorded in the bible. And as a christian I believe that the bible is the true and inpired( by the Holy Spirit) word of God no matter how long before Christ's birth or after Christ's death it was written. I too will pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes and heart.


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## Outdoorjunke

Quote
Yes, I do agree that we have free will. What I have argued before in relationship to this along with christian beliefs is that if its truly "FREE" will then why are there consequences if you dont do it like the book says? Is that really "Free Will"? You have a choice BUT if you choose wrong, you burn for eternity??? Doesnt make sense to me.
Reply
Does this make sense you have the free will to tell your boss you're not going to do what he has asked you to do. But there will be consequences for that. 
Quote
Which book? I have spoken to people who state they have read THE book many times and I have heard many different things in regards to this... Children that arent baptised are subject to Hell, or Purgatory, or whatever... We are born as sinners...etc...

I have only read portions of the bible so I am no expert here but as I have stated before, those people who HAVE read the bible, they all seem to have a different interpretation of it.
Reply
It does not specifically state an age when one becomes accountable. I would say when one knows right from wrong. But we do know children go to haven by what is said in 2nd Samuel Chapter 12
*19* David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked. 
"Yes," they replied, "he is dead." 
*20* Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate. 
*21* His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!" 
*22* He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' *23* But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

Quote
So, with what you are saying is that you are fine as long as you dont know anything about Christianity but as soon as you have been exposed in any way, you must then accept Christ or burn eternally?

I think you will find many would disagree with you in regards to this. Many people believe if you do not claim Christ as your lord and savior and that he was sacrificed for your sins, you will NOT go to Heaven... And that goes for EVERYONE.

Reply 
I sand corrected it state in Romans Chapter 1-18 it says.
*18*The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, *19*since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. *20*For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


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## bzrk180

> I stand corrected everyone must go though the son to get to the father.


So again, all of the African indigenous people, all of the people before the time of Christ, all of those aboriginal people, Native Americans, Buddhists, Krishnas, 1.2 BILLION muslims (now, not copunting those passed), eskimoes, and every other person on the planet that was not raised in Christianity, does not follow Christianity, all of those people suffer an eternity in Hell? I have a hard time believing this and this does not represent a God that I can understand. Again, I respect your opinion and your belief...If it works for you, do it!



> I respect your right to have a differant opinion BRZK,


Thank you... I respect your right to believe as you wish too... Its sad more people dont feel this way! If more people were accepting of this, there would be so much less hatred in the world!



> there is no way that you are right with GOD from a christian perspective


Thats OK...I think God and I are straight. I dont have to believe in one certain belief to be connected with the God I understand.



> this "history" is clearly recorded in the bible. And as a christian I believe that the bible is the true and inpired( by the Holy Spirit) word of God


And again, if you choose to use the Bible as your only true source to document history then more power to you. I simply cant alighn myself with using one book that has been written, re-written, (a "few" times) with the content decided by a bunch of Christian leaders over the years (e...Nicean Council, etc...) with historical information that was not allowed in the Bible because of the fear of how people would react, as a true and relevent document that covered all of what has happened in regards to Christianity over the years. To me (and again, I respect your decision and beliefs around al of this) I see that as very limiting and very biased into what is or actually DID happen



> no matter how long before Christ's birth or after Christ's death it was written


OK, thats OK with me too...I however seem to believe that recording an incident or a timeframe or a persons journey 30 years after their death by memory alone CANNOT be an accurate account. Writers bytheir very nature are grandious in their telling of stories and peoples ideas of a thing after 30 years can be innacurate.

I think I posted this in here, I have written alot...LOL!!

I have seen people who were witnesses who gave one story atthe time of the incident and then had a whole different story a week later, a day later...man, even an hour later.

Besides, if you so adimately believe that these peopel heard the word of God and documented that word, why is it so hard for you to believe that this guy Neale Donald Walsh talked to God? Why do you discount Joseph Smith...Both of these peopel claim God spoke to them and told them what to do and swear it is the "Word of God"...

I dont understand how a person will so easily say these people are crazy, nut jobs "OF THE DEVIL" or whatever but as far as the people who wrote the Bible, well, they were speaking directly to the big guy himself and you will without question believe what they said...

Why is that?


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## kodman1

bzrk180

I am at a loss of words. I will be praying for you.


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## bzrk180

kodman1 said:


> bzrk180
> 
> I am at a loss of words. I will be praying for you.


Not sure why you feel you need to pray for me, but thanks!

Instead of everyone wishing I would find the Holy Spirit, or saying prayers for me or whatever...Why dont you go pick up the book and give it a read...Its a book...Is it really that scary?

Make a decision of your own...I paraphrase in here and put my own feelings into it but to understand the books, you really should read them yourself.

I dont understand why people are so closed minded to differing views...If more people took the time to understand and be informed about other beliefs, maybe we wouldnt have as much violence because of misunderstanding. This doesnt mean you have to follow what these books say...read them and then make your own infomed decision.


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## fishinmajician

Bzrk- the whole point is that No man can "understand" all about God. And yes, all the muslims, africans etc.(All who do not accept Christ as their lord and saviour) are destined to hell, weather you,I, or anyone else "likes" it or not. As to "history"- I don't rely only on the bible for general historical facts, however when it comes to historical context of Jesus, the Bible IS authoritative and is corroborated through archeology in many instances. You have not provided a referance to your incorrect "reason" from a historical perspective for the crucifiction. At any rate, the reason that I and many others are praying for you is that if we as christians are right- which I believe we are- then you have much to worry about. If we are wrong then nobody has anything to worry about. If you don't confess it now rest assured that you will on the last day- but then it will be too late. As for Joseph Smith etc., there are many false prophets who confess a "faith" where YOU have to DO. As christians, we confess a faith that says it is already DONE, AMEN.


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## Outdoorjunke

Quote
And again, if you choose to use the Bible as your only true source to document history then more power to you. I simply cant alighn myself with using one book that has been written, re-written, (a "few" times) with the content decided by a bunch of Christian leaders over the years (e...Nicean Council, etc...) with historical information that was not allowed in the Bible because of the fear of how people would react, as a true and relevent document that covered all of what has happened in regards to Christianity over the years. To me (and again, I respect your decision and beliefs around al of this) I see that as very limiting and very biased into what is or actually DID happen

Reply
But you have no problem believing one man, Neale Donald Walsch the author of the "*Conversations with God*". The book is not even a real account, it's just a story. He got the Ideal from some else's Essay.


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## bzrk180

> fishinmajician said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bzrk- the whole point is that No man can "understand" all about God. And yes, all the muslims, africans etc.(All who do not accept Christ as their lord and saviour) are destined to hell, weather you,I, or anyone else "likes" it or not.
> 
> 
> 
> And as I have stated before, I dont believe this to be a truth. Why would God create these people and never even offer them the opportunity to understand differently? So what you are saying is God has created these people destined to fail and burn forever? This is the God you choose to worship and follow? This is the all loving God you show praise to?
> 
> Like I said before, I dont want to attack your faith..I am simply responding with my thoughts on this. A loving, all being, all knowing God that creates human beingds as "his children" creates them just to put souls in Hell?? That is not the God that *I* choose to believe in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As to "history"- I don't rely only on the bible for general historical facts, however when it comes to historical context of Jesus, the Bible IS authoritative and is corroborated through archeology in many instances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And in many instances it is found to be innacurate through archeological finds like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Verses, and I think something else was recenly discovered in regards to some writings/scrolls from Judas. There is also much that was left out of the bible by the various councils throughout time which again can lead to innacuracies. I would not call that "authoritative".
> 
> There is also some historical evidence that supports the loss of MANY biblical writings in the Library of Alexandria fire. (if you are unfamiliar with this, this link will give you and idea http://www.history-magazine.com/libraries.html) There are many other sources that speak about this though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have not provided a referance to your incorrect "reason" from a historical perspective for the crucifiction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Start here...
> http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm
> 
> http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/1_ch02.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At any rate, the reason that I and many others are praying for you is that if we as christians are right- which I believe we are- then you have much to worry about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, thank you for your prayers and thoughts. If you feel as a Christian that this is your duty then by all means, do what you feel you need to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we are wrong then nobody has anything to worry about. If you don't confess it now rest assured that you will on the last day- but then it will be too late.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My friend, if the God you speak to me about and tell me of in here who creates his children to fail, sends people to eternal damnation, has an ego that needs to be worshiped, is narcassistic and vengeful then I assure you, the life I have led up to this point already secures my place. I guess you would consider me an agnostic (as most everyone is) since I just dont know for sure. If "faith" is what has you beleive the way you do, trust me, the faith I have in what I believe is just as strong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for Joseph Smith etc., there are many false prophets who confess a "faith"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And who is it that determines these false prophets? Why arent the people in the Bible considered that way?? Because the Bible says so?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As christians, we confess a faith that says it is already DONE, AMEN
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And, as I have stated in here before, I believe the same way...It IS already done... ALL OF IT!!
> 
> Thnaks again for the interaction but I guess this is one we will have to agree to disagree.
Click to expand...


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## bzrk180

> Outdoorjunke said:
> 
> 
> 
> But you have no problem believing one man, Neale Donald Walsch the author of the "*Conversations with God*".
> 
> 
> 
> I get so tired of typing this in conversations but I will here again...Just because I believe a part of something by no means states I believe all of it. Where in ANY of my posts have I declaired that I believe everything Neale says in his books? Where have you ever seen me state that I form a belief on any ONE book?
> 
> I believe alot of what is said in his books, I beleieve alot in what Christ apparently said, I believe in some of what Buddah says, I believe in some of what Joel Osteen says (etc...).... I never limit my belief on one source...As I stated before, that limits my experience and possibility to see things outside of this "relgion" box we are so bound to have to believe in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The book is not even a real account, it's just a story. He got the Ideal from some else's Essay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you are mistaken...I am not sure where you got this from...Can you support this with some info or a link or something?
> 
> The CWG books 1, 2 and 3 are, in my understanding, a dictation of the conversation he believes he had with God. If you have a source that states its someone elses "essay" I would like to see that.
Click to expand...


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## Bonito

In Revelations when God is speking to the Church of Philadelphia ( church of the modern world. In other words, the church today ) He says, I would rather you be hot or cold, but since you are neither and are luke warm, I will spit you out of my mouth.

God puts Hot and Cold together equally. Right and Wrong Equally. In other words, He is more concerned with our devotion to Him whether we do it in the right way or the wrong way. In the end He will reveal the truth to all His created ones. At that point they can decide whether to believe in Jesus or not.

Those who know better and know they should be devoted to God, whether they be Christian or Muslem or Budists or whatever, but choose to be half hearted or lax in their belief or devotion, will be punished.

At least that's how I read it. God loves all His created ones.


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## activescrape

BZRK, it is not possible to put God in a box. It is not possible to completely understand him. If it were you would be his equal, which surely you are not. You have repeatedly referred to "my God" , "the God I understand" etal. This is what tips off your attempt to have God wrapped up in a neat little package that you have mastered, meaning that he can't surprise you.
It's not like that. You are a father, right. Do your kids know everything you know?

Would you like to worship, or even believe in, a God that would force love and happiness down your throat? Would you prefer a God that was a dictator? This is why he gave us free will. When there were two people, they had free will. They sinned. We as humans were tainted, and will remain so until we are reconciled to him.

Is there sin. Jesus tought so. As he told the prostitute whom was being stoned, "Go and *sin* no more."
Yep, there is sin, and we get to daily choose over and over to sin or not.

More that all of that though, I was a hopelessly lost 38 year old. Bankrupt morally, physically, financially and spiritually. I had tried numerous times to change for the law, for my wife, for my children, for my parents, and failed miserably each time. I was dying.
Finally, in desperation, I went to my knees and confessed that I was a failure at running my own life. And I gave to him the pile of you know what that was my life to him and gave up. 
When I did that he immediately and supernaturally removed the compulsion to drink from me and it has never returned. That was in the late 80's. The ensuing 20 years have been more blessed that I could ever have imagined. I have accomplished more as a human that I ever thought I would. 
Have there been valleys. Oh, yes, cancer, death by drunk driver, mental illness, lots of things have touched my life, and God has been by my side through each and every one of them. 
The proof of God's existence is a changed life. I am one and I continue to see them. The God I know is the God of the bible. It is his word.

As descendants of the first two, all humans are under God's original plan. He said don't eat the apple, they did, there are consequenses. They were in Eden, heaven on earth. They didn't even know they were naked. Sin changed everything, for all of us.

So here's the deal. One of these days judgement will come. God is not going to let sin into heaven, his house. Sin isn't getting one toe inside the gate. So, the only way in is to be perfect, or forgiven. You see we will not be compared to our fellow man, but to the owner of the house. I'm not perfect, are you? I am forgiven though.

If I write a list of rules for my children, and explain them, and provide examples of what the consequenses are for breaking them and they break them they have no leverage to say, we didn't understand. If they express regret and ask for forgiveness I will forgive them, however, if they rewrite the rules so that they may convince themselves that they are doing nothing wrong and continue to live in defiance to my original plan, it does not change my love for them, but I will not let them bring their defiance and live under my roof.

It is no mistake that Jesus describes God's kingdom as a kingdom. You can think of it like that. In an kingdom, there is one king, then his court all the way down to the peasants. The peasants enjoy the protection of the king just like the court does. But start flirting with the king of another kingdom and see what happens.

I do not pretend to totally understand everything in the Bible. I actually have some questions. But, I haven't met the person yet who God tapped on the shoulder and said with a wink, "hey I'm going to let you and you alone in on all the secrets of the universe." There are things we will not understand until we are glorified spiritually.

I don't understand what anyone thinks they have to lose by taking God at his word.

As a matter of fact, right at the end of the Bible, last chapter of Revelation, it says that, and I'm paraphrasing, that anyone that adds wordsto the Bible will not recieve any eternal belssing and anyone who takes words out of the bible will have their blessing removed. Close to that anyway, it is a stern warning to not add stuff or ignore stuff.


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## bzrk180

My momma always said to never talk religion or politics...I never have seemed to have listened to her...LOL!! Good thing its too cold to ride my bike today... I got a feeling this will be lengthy so I apologize now for any gramatical errors!



> activescrape said:
> 
> 
> 
> BZRK, it is not possible to put God in a box. It is not possible to completely understand him
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think I have done this. I have simply written down some of my views and some of what I take in regards to these books. I never claimed to completely understand God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it were you would be his equal, which surely you are not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Didnt Christ himself state..
> 
> "All these things I do, you can do and more"
> 
> Or something like that? And again, I never stated that I was equal to God but isnt it also stated somewhere that we were made in Gods image?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have repeatedly referred to "my God" , "the God I understand" etal. This is what tips off your attempt to have God wrapped up in a neat little package that you have mastered, meaning that he can't surprise you.
> It's not like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I state that the way I do because the God that I believe in and the God that others have identified here dont seem to be the same God. I am very clear there is only ONE but I interprate this "ONE" a bit differently. I dont think my grasp on it is any more or less than anyone elses (although I dont feel that is the case with many I am debating with)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a father, right. Do your kids know everything you know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think so...I also dont think I know everyhting they do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you like to worship, or even believe in, a God that would force love and happiness down your throat? Would you prefer a God that was a dictator? This is why he gave us free will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have stated before, I do believe in free will, again, I interprate that differently than some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When there were two people, they had free will. They sinned. We as humans were tainted, and will remain so until we are reconciled to him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont believe that I am forever doomed because some human however long ago sinned thus leaving me to answer for their mistakes...Again, something that doesnt make sense to me...
> 
> Also, the story you speak of has been found documented differently...Look up who "Lilith" was...Once again the total accuracy of the Bible can be questioned due to what was decidedly left out or lost in the Library I posted about earlier.
> 
> This is a battle that is never to be won...It has been fought since the beginning of Christianity and many, many people die and still die in the name of God and what they believe... I would think God would be saddened at this..Dont you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there sin. Jesus tought so. As he told the prostitute whom was being stoned, "Go and *sin* no more."
> Yep, there is sin, and we get to daily choose over and over to sin or not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think Jesus would have cast her into eternal flame in hell for her sin?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ensuing 20 years have been more blessed that I could ever have imagined. I have accomplished more as a human that I ever thought I would.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am glad you found a life that works for you and that you have comfort with your decision. That is an incredible thing...Like I have stated in here before, If it works for you, if the life you have now is what you want and serving you and those close to you, KEEP DOING IT!! I would never try to deter you away from what works for you...You are blessed!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have there been valleys. Oh, yes, cancer, death by drunk driver, mental illness, lots of things have touched my life, and God has been by my side through each and every one of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which is what life is about and these books speak too. You have to experience the bad so that you can really appreciate the good...You have to have te winter to truly enjoy the spring...You have to not be able to fish so that you can truly enjoy it in the times you get to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The proof of God's existence is a changed life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The proof of Gods existance to YOU is a changed life. Again, I am happy for you. My proof of the existance of God is the life lived. I am of the opinion this life is a gift and that it came from God. I dont have to have a changed life, a great marriage, an abstinance from alcoho or whatever to prove his existance to me...I know he exists!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The God I know is the God of the bible. It is his word.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thats great...Like I said, if that is what works for you, keep it up!
> 
> Now, didnt you state earlier in this thread that when I identified God in terms like this I was putting him in a box?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As descendants of the first two, all humans are under God's original plan. He said don't eat the apple, they did, there are consequenses. They were in Eden, heaven on earth. They didn't even know they were naked. Sin changed everything, for all of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, I have a hard time believing this story at face value. Are you one of those who believes humans have only been on the planet for a couple of thousand years?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sin isn't getting one toe inside the gate. So, the only way in is to be perfect, or forgiven. You see we will not be compared to our fellow man, but to the owner of the house. I'm not perfect, are you? I am forgiven though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is debatable all by itself. I personally dont believe God makes mistakes...I also believe we are all perfect int he eyes of God, we are his children right?
> 
> Now, do *I *think I am perfect?? Well no...I think I could improve on myself always. I do however believe I am forgiven... I live a life to serve others, I trust and love my fellow man more than most (it seems anyway) and I work hard to do the "right" thing so I think that when I stumble, fall or screw up from time to time that I am forgiven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I write a list of rules for my children, and explain them, and provide examples of what the consequenses are for breaking them and they break them they have no leverage to say, we didn't understand. If they express regret and ask for forgiveness I will forgive them, however, if they rewrite the rules so that they may convince themselves that they are doing nothing wrong and continue to live in defiance to my original plan, it does not change my love for them, but I will not let them bring their defiance and live under my roof.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, I follow you on this and I beleive there are consequnces to actions (karma is always a good one!).
> 
> Earlier in this thread you made a statement that sasked if I thought I was equal to God (or something along those lines)... You here seem to be stating that you are equal to God in regards to consequences and punishment...
> 
> I seem to think God is above those types of needs for conformity. I just dont think there is this bearded guy up in the clouds watching every step we make and judging us for those steps...
> 
> But I will say it once again, I dont think any less of how you live or believe...I am glad you do what wors for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is no mistake that Jesus describes God's kingdom as a kingdom. You can think of it like that. In an kingdom, there is one king, then his court all the way down to the peasants. The peasants enjoy the protection of the king just like the court does. But start flirting with the king of another kingdom and see what happens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The reality with this analogy is that there are other Kings to flirt with and other kingdoms...
> 
> I dont think there is any other King or kingdom in regards to God. There is no one else to flirt with...I think God is far bigger and has much more definition than we could possibly understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, I haven't met the person yet who God tapped on the shoulder and said with a wink, "hey I'm going to let you and you alone in on all the secrets of the universe."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is sad is that based on what you have stated here and what others have stated, if there was that "tap on the shoulder" you would discount it and call the person a false prophet.
> 
> And again, I have to disagree...I dont think there are any "secrets" I think there are things we simply cannot understand...But we will...someday...when its "time"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are things we will not understand until we are glorified spiritually.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And some call this enlightenment...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand what anyone thinks they have to lose by taking God at his word.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I havent heard God give his word...I have heard/read what other people state that God told them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact, right at the end of the Bible, last chapter of Revelation, it says that, and I'm paraphrasing, that anyone that adds wordsto the Bible will not recieve any eternal belssing and anyone who takes words out of the bible will have their blessing removed. Close to that anyway, it is a stern warning to not add stuff or ignore stuff
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the councils I have spoken of before (Nicean is the one that comes to mind right now), those religious leaders, those "experts" missed this portion of the Bible. There has been stuff added and deleted from the Bible over time.
> 
> And again, this is a battle that is fine to debate and go back and forth about but no matter what is said in here, I have traveled my path on the Judeho Christian path and found that it was not what I have decided to follow... There is far too much out there that alighns with these teachings and adds to the experience we have here for ourselves and for others.
> 
> I guess I have never been one to attach myself to a "label" and this is no different.
> 
> I am not a republican, lbertarian or a democrat...I find value in all but, truth, to me, is somewhere in the middle...
> 
> I am not a Catholic (I was though), a Protestant, a Baptist, a Buddhist, A Krishna, etc.... I find value in all of them but, truth, to me, is somewhere in the middle...
Click to expand...


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## activescrape

I'm not sure it's relevant but N. D. Walsh has had his blog shut down on the Beliefnet.com website. Seems he plagarised a story Candy Chand wrote for her kindergarten son's Christmas pageant. Of course, "he doesn't know how this could have happened." 

Not exactly my kind of guru.


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## atcfisherman

There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death and destruction. Jesus siad, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, *no one* goes to the father except through me."

This is straight forward!


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## bzrk180

activescrape said:


> I'm not sure it's relevant but N. D. Walsh has had his blog shut down on the Beliefnet.com website. Seems he plagarised a story Candy Chand wrote for her kindergarten son's Christmas pageant. Of course, "he doesn't know how this could have happened."
> 
> Not exactly my kind of guru.


I have not heard this..Thanks for the info...I will look that up.

Again, never stated I thought he was Guru or that I "followed" Neale Donald Walsh (which he has never asked anyone to do). I simply stated what my take was on these books and soem of my beliefs in regards to what was said.

I never have claimed these books know it all or that Neale Donald Walsh was the new Christ. I understand how people want to reason away a different belief than their own by attacking that belief but please be aware, I dont really attach myself to one specific book, spiritual leader, etc...


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## bzrk180

atcfisherman said:


> There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death and destruction. Jesus siad, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, *no one* goes to the father except through me."
> 
> This is straight forward!


It is straight forward from a devout follower of Christ who wrote this 30 years or so after his death. Christ never wrote any of this.

I understand this is how you choose to believe and what you choose to follow. I am glad you have found your path, caught your bus, am clear on your journey...

Why is it so hard for others to accept that I have found mine and am secure with it? I have no judgments of you or your beliefs...Why do you judge mine? Doesnt the Bible itself state to not judge others?


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## bzrk180

I just read the info on the Candy Chand thing... Sad this happened but this has NOTHING to do with the CWG books.

Looks to me like he has publicly owned the mistake, apologized for it and explained why he thinks this happened. 

I still, even with this information about Neale, find much value in the three CWG books. 

I have even stated here that I have attempted to read his other books and stories and never could really get into them. the first three books are what I was discussing and I still stand by my thoughts on those.

You know, it really saddens me how people SEARCH out a reson to discredit someone simply because they dont agree with them. Its like Joel Osteens wife who was accused of assaulting a woman on a plane... It seems that if someone is "on top" or verbally discussing a truth for themsleves and others alighn with that truth, people get defensive and do whatever they can to knock a person down or back...That truly is sad!


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## atcfisherman

bzrk180 said:


> It is straight forward from a devout follower of Christ who wrote this 30 years or so after his death. Christ never wrote any of this.
> 
> I understand this is how you choose to believe and what you choose to follow. I am glad you have found your path, caught your bus, am clear on your journey...
> 
> Why is it so hard for others to accept that I have found mine and am secure with it? I have no judgments of you or your beliefs...Why do you judge mine? Doesnt the Bible itself state to not judge others?


Sorry if you felt I was judging you. I appoligize for coming across that way. I think all everyone is trying to do is show you how your chosen belief doesn't line up with what the scriptures say. But, if that is what you choose to believe, then only you are responsible for it weather right or wrong.

As far as Jesus writting the scripture I quoted, you are correct in saying he never wrote it. However, HE DID SAY IT!! My question is, how can you choose the scriptures you want to believe and throw the ones that don't line up with your chose of belief out? Above, you imply that you question weather Jesus wrote or said that He was THE WAY, and THE TRUTH and THE LIFE and no one goes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH HIM, *But,* you choose to use the "JUDGING OTHERS" scripture to fend off others whom are just trying to help you take the entire bible as it is.

It is like building a human skelleton. If you only choose to pick the bones you want and leave out the other bones, then you have a deformed skelleton and is not complete. Again, I don't think anyone is judging you, just trying to show you how your chosen belief doesn't line up with the scriptures of the Bible.


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## bzrk180

[


> quote=atcfisherman;1884882]Sorry if you felt I was judging you. I appoligize for coming across that way.


Not sure I felt "judged" but many "Christians" are the first to point fingers and say "you cando that" or "You must do this" and that is a judgment.



> I think all everyone is trying to do is show you how your chosen belief doesn't line up with what the scriptures say.


I think I am clear on that



> But, if that is what you choose to believe, then only you are responsible for it weather right or wrong.


Agreed...Thank you!



> As far as Jesus writting the scripture I quoted, you are correct in saying he never wrote it. However, HE DID SAY IT!!


I just watched the movie that another poster on this threat reccomended... It is arguable that Jesus said anything EXACTLY as the bible says he did. I however to beleive that the Context was the same. My point is that taking the Bible word for word as the one book to live a life by is using a book surrounded and documented with skepticism



> My question is, how can you choose the scriptures you want to believe and throw the ones that don't line up with your chose of belief out?


The only REAL belief I have on anything is from my personal experience. I use quotes form many others that help me in my path and then listen to other things they say and discount thouse. For instance... I think that Thoreau has many brilliant statements that capitalize on the experience we have in life, others are not that interesting to me and dont speak to me...Again, remember, you look at the Bible one way, I look at it another.



> Above, you imply that you question weather Jesus wrote or said that He was THE WAY, and THE TRUTH and THE LIFE and no one goes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH HIM,


I dont question so much if he said it or not but in the accuracy that it is documented 30+years after his death....35+ years after he supposedly said it.



> *But,* you choose to use the "JUDGING OTHERS" scripture to fend off others whom are just trying to help you take the entire bible as it is.


I didnt use a scripture in that...Only somehting I remembered and paraphrased...Besides, I am not the one who feels bound in Christian conformity...Those of you who do assign yourself to that, I am simply offering you a reminder.

And I do take the Bible for what it is...A historical document that leaves many "what ifs", "could have beens" and skepticism...



> It is like building a human skelleton. If you only choose to pick the bones you want and leave out the other bones, then you have a deformed skelleton and is not complete.


To use your analogy then is to say that the only right Skeleton is your skeleton then...

What about the Muslim skeleton....The Jewsih skeleton.... The indigenous African tribesmans skeleton...The Native American skeleton?



> Again, I don't think anyone is judging you, just trying to show you how your chosen belief doesn't line up with the scriptures of the Bible


Maybe "judging" is too much of a word. However, you are only seeing this thread and not the little comments in my reputation box or PMs I get from those so concerned.

I think it was clear form the very begining that my beliefs dont line up with the scriptures in the Bible (but in reality, my beliefs are alighned with them in many ways).

I believe in the things that is documented that Christ did...I beleive its possible.... I believe thatthe Bible is "possible"... I dont think that word for word its "probable" but its possible.

I also believe much of what the Native Americans believed is "possible" and that the Aboriginals believe is "possible" the Krishnas, the Buddists, etc....Any of them, word for word "PROBABLE"...Not so much!!

I think that God, Spirituality and the existance of a higher power is much larger than can possibly be put in one book or surrounded with one belief system...Whether you call it God, Muhamed, Buddah, Mother Earth, or whatever...It is still *ALL *God!


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## atcfisherman

BZRK180, thanks for your honest reply. I respect your choice to believe all ways are right and whatever else you believe. My point is if someone believes the bible, then they will use God given faith to accept HIS truths and word as sent from HIM. If someone chooses only the scriptures they want to believe, then they don't have then entire truth according to the Bible, not me! Based on the Bible and what Jesus said that He is the Way and He is the Truth an He is the Life, then either you must believe Him and the Bible or all the other man made religions b/c they all don't line up.

If you feel you have salvation figured out w/o Christ, then there is nothing anyone can do but pray for you. *If you are correct in your belief that all ways are seeking God and all will be saved, then none of us has anything to worry about. However, if what Christ said is true, then you have lost everything.*

I hope this clears a little up. Have a blessed evening and thanks for being honest.


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## TexasWhaler

bzrk180, it may help others to understand your viewpoints, if you simply let them know you are a Mason.



bzrk180 said:


> [
> I think that God, Spirituality and the existance of a higher power is much larger than can possibly be put in one book or surrounded with one belief system...Whether you call it God, Muhamed, Buddah, Mother Earth, or whatever...It is still *ALL *God!


You see, we don't have the option, of believing in a universal God, as you do. (aka: deism)
Our authority is clear. We believe believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and the Messiah (Christ) prophesied in the Bible. Jesus Christ is a teacher, the model of a virtuous life, the revealer of God, as well as an incarnation of God, and most importantly the savior of humanity who suffered, died, and was resurrected to bring about salvation from sin. We know that Jesus ascended into heaven, and will return to judge the living and the dead, granting everlasting life to his followers.

Period.

Our orders are clear. Our mission is clear.


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## squidmotion

i'm praying for all of us...


----------



## bzrk180

> TexasWhaler said:
> 
> 
> 
> bzrk180, it may help others to understand your viewpoints, if you simply let them know you are a Mason.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure how to take this so I will respond to it as I read it is put here...
> 
> Dont associate me being a Mason with any religious beliefs I may have. MANY, MANY, MANY Masons are devout Christians that believe exactly like what you and many have stated in here.
> 
> You stated in the other thread that you were not well infromed on Masonry so please do not make such broad assumptions about this fine Fraternity.
> 
> My belief of God or Sprituality has nothing to do with me being a Mason... The only requirement for me in regards to this as a Mason is that I believe there is a God...Which I have *CLEARY* stated in here that *I do*. (for those of you who want to leave little smart remarks in PM's, other threads or whatever...Read that sentance again please)
> 
> Before you start to assault Masony with ill informed information, do us all a favor and do some more research.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You see, we don't have the option, of believing in a universal God, as you do. (aka: deism)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, you do.... Thats Free Will...You CHOOSE the option you have now. MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY people have "opted" differently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our authority is clear. We believe believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and the Messiah (Christ) prophesied in the Bible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for this again...I am clear as to what you believe and why.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus Christ is a teacher, the model of a virtuous life, the revealer of God, as well as an incarnation of God, and most importantly the savior of humanity who suffered, died, and was resurrected to bring about salvation from sin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which, if you have read this entire thread, has been spoken about and gone back and forth over.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We know that Jesus ascended into heaven, and will return to judge the living and the dead, granting everlasting life to his followers.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good, I am glad you KNOW this... The reason that you KNOW this is purely due to FAITH...To know this in the absoulute, you would have had to have been witness to this personally. Did you?
> 
> I have not experienced this personally nor have I experienced the Buddah or any of the others I have listed in here. I have however experienced a life with my beliefs that works well for me and for others. I have FAITH in my beliefs as well. Strong faith! Maybe as strong as yours (as hard as that might be for you to believe.).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our orders are clear.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Orders? Hmmmm...OK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our mission is clear.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which *AGIAN*, I am stating good for you, I am glad your path is so bright and you know the way. Good luck to you!
Click to expand...


----------



## bzrk180

Man, as I read back, this thread has taken a HUGE turn from its original start... I am sorry if I let more of my personal beliefs enter this conversation and direct it the way it has. The books listed in here are not where I base my belief from...I have made my decisions from a VARIETY of sources. My beliefs on the Bible *DID NOT* come from these books.



> atcfisherman said:
> 
> 
> 
> BZRK180, thanks for your honest reply. I respect your choice to believe all ways are right and whatever else you believe.
> 
> 
> 
> Your welcome...Thank you for the respect...I appreciate that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point is if someone believes the bible, then they will use God given faith to accept HIS truths and word as sent from HIM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which, going back to the original portion of this thread, I think the books that this thread talks about alighn with many of those "truths"... The fact of the matter is that many wont even take the time to read them because of rediculous statements such as were stated in the e-mail that orifginated this thread... ITS A BOOK!!
> 
> Dont any of you read other books that alighn with the bible so you can better understand it? How many of you read Joel Osteens books...How about Falwells books or anyone else along those lines?
> 
> These books do that in many ways...Like I sated before...Its a book...Pick it up, read it, throw out what you want and maybe learn something or hear an answer that you have always been asking yourself.
> 
> I, nor does the author *EVER* state these books are the "New Bible"...Its a guide book that alighns VERY much with whatthe Bible says.
> 
> All of this in this thread, all of this back and forth in regards to all of this and I am the only one who has read these books...Anyone else care to read one then comment?
> 
> At least I have been open enough to hear a variety of views and thoughts on this subject. I dont get all of my feelings, ideas and beliefs from these books alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If someone chooses only the scriptures they want to believe, then they don't have then entire truth according to the Bible, not me!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I undertsand that and I have never stated to step away from that...I only offered my opinoions on the Bible...
> 
> This thread has veered way off the original topic which are the CWG books... In regards to those books, there is nothing in there I have heard that tells you the Bible is Hogwash...
> 
> What it does do (or did for me) was answer many of the questions that I had in reagrds to the Bible...
> 
> The idea of the Bible and its accuracy *did not* come from these books...It came from Christian advanced studies in College at a Presbyterian University.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the Bible and what Jesus said that He is the Way and He is the Truth an He is the Life, then either you must believe Him and the Bible or all the other man made religions b/c they all don't line up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agian, we have stepped more into *my belief* system than the books themselves...The CWG books really do solidify many of the Judeho Christian beliefs.
> 
> I dont believe the way I do SIMPLY BECAUSE of these books...I have read these books and believe like I do for a VARIETY of reasons.
> 
> Again, Not sure how this got so much about me and my beliefs...If that was my fault, I apologize!
> 
> The passages posted in this thread in regards to these books are just a very small glimpse of what the books offer. Taking a passage from these books in this manner is the same as picking and choosing which scripture to believe...It does not do it justice...
> 
> I stated fromt he very beginnignt hat one should really read the books themselves and form their own opinion.
> 
> I wish I knew how this got so off topic...LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel you have salvation figured out w/o Christ, then there is nothing anyone can do but pray for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never stated that.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> If you are correct in your belief that all ways are seeking God and all will be saved, then none of us has anything to worry about. However, if what Christ said is true, then you have lost everything.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *And again, my interpretaion of that is different. What Christ said and what the Bible says are a BROAD range of things. What Christ "said" is a portion of the Bible, it is not the entire Bible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this clears a little up. Have a blessed evening and thanks for being honest
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks...You too!
Click to expand...


----------



## TexasWhaler

bzrk180 said:


> I am not sure how to take this so I will respond to it as I read it is put here...
> 
> Dont associate me being a Mason with any religious beliefs I may have. MANY, MANY, MANY Masons are devout Christians that believe exactly like what you and many have stated in here.
> 
> You stated in the other thread that you were not well infromed on Masonry so please do not make such broad assumptions about this fine Fraternity.
> 
> My belief of God or Sprituality has nothing to do with me being a Mason... The only requirement for me in regards to this as a Mason is that I believe there is a God...Which I have *CLEARY* stated in here that *I do*. (for those of you who want to leave little smart remarks in PM's, other threads or whatever...Read that sentance again please)
> 
> Before you start to assault Masony with ill informed information, do us all a favor and do some more research.
> 
> 
> 
> You seem like a patient man, which I very much respect.
> 
> Help me to understand. Is it a coincidence that your belief in a "common" God (deism), just happens to match that of the Masons?
> 
> My assumptions? It well known (even by your own admission) that Masons believe in a common God, and that other religions are an equal path to the common God. There's no assumption there. Am I wrong?
> 
> Please understand, at no point was I, or am I, attacking you, your beliefs, or the Masons.
> 
> Help me to understand. Is it possible to be a Mason, and believe that Jesus is the only Son of God, and the only pathway to Salvation?
Click to expand...


----------



## atcfisherman

bzrk180 said:


> Good, I am glad you KNOW this... The reason that you KNOW this is purely due to FAITH...To know this in the absoulute, you would have had to have been witness to this personally. Did you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me say that I understand you getting upset if someone thinks they know something about your belief and judges it or you. However, the above statement is a clear judgement of a christians belief.
> 
> A christian uses faith, but we believe and know that the bible is true. To know an absolute doesn't mean you have to be there. I wasn't there when Sam Houston defeated Santa Anna, but I know it was true based on all the evidence and facts. The bible is evidence and facts of the only living true God. If you choose not to believe it, that is your choice and I respect it. However, don't turn around and try to discredit others whom choose to see it as truth by say things like, "were you there." That puts people on the defensive and I know you don't like it when it is done to you.
> 
> Bottom line, I think we understand what you believe and if that works for you now, then so be it. But, we believe and know that the bible is true and only want to make sure all know the truth before it's too late.
> 
> The bible states that there is a way that seems right to man, but in the end, it leads to distruction. *Again, if you are right in your beliefs, then none of us has anything to worry about. But, if the bible is right, then you will have lost everything when you die and spend eterenty in hell.* This is based on the truths of the bible, not anyones opinion. So, again, if the bible is not right, then you have nothing to sweat as the universal god will accept all men no matter how they lived their lives or what they choose to believe in that "fit" their life styles. BUT, REMEMBE THAT IF THE BIBLE IS RIGHT, YOU HAVE LOST YOUR SOUL.
> 
> That isn't a judgement from me at all b/c it is from the bible. I think one thing that is hard to understand is how some people decide to only pick certain verses from the bible and not the entire bible. They usually do this b/c they don't want to admit they are wrong and would then have to face the one true holy living God.
> 
> BZRK180, I hope you understand that I am not judging you and if you choose to keep your universal beliefs, then I can only respect your right to do that and can only pray for you. Nothing less and nothing more. However, if we respect your choice in a universal god, then please respect christians in their trust in the entire bible and don't try to discredit it with statements like "were you there." It just keeps the agrument going and going and going b/c we are all human.
> 
> I think all I want you to truly understand are the following:
> 1. That we christians believe and know that the bible is the true word of God.
> 2. That if you are correct in your beliefs, then all of us has nothing to worry about b/c we are all going to make it to heaven when we die.
> 3. That if you are wrong, then the bible is correct and you will spend eternity in hell after death.
> 
> I hope and pray that you can understand one day, but I will give you respect for your choice of beliefs. Have a blessed day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## bzrk180

> TexasWhaler said:
> 
> 
> 
> You seem like a patient man, which I very much respect
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure that is an accurate identification but thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Help me to understand. Is it a coincidence that your belief in a "common" God (deism), just happens to match that of the Masons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Masonic beliefs are Bible based...GOD is referred to regularly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My assumptions? It well known (even by your own admission) that Masons believe in a common God, and that other religions are an equal path to the common God. There's no assumption there. Am I wrong?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Religion and politics are not discussed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please understand, at no point was I, or am I, attacking you, your beliefs, or the Masons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Assumptions can be taken as attacks... When you assume something about an organization such as the Masons, you are not doing the Fraternity or anyone that is a member of it justice. Dont assume, go find out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Help me to understand. Is it possible to be a Mason, and believe that Jesus is the only Son of God, and the only pathway to Salvation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *ABSOLUTELY!!*
> 
> Remember, the Masons are NOT a religious organization...Do not try to intertwine the two.
Click to expand...


----------



## Solid Action

bzrk180 said:


> I dont understand why people are so closed minded to differing views...If more people took the time to understand and be informed about other beliefs, maybe we wouldnt have as much violence because of misunderstanding. This doesnt mean you have to follow what these books say...read them and then make your own infomed decision.


Alright, I read along until I got to this. The "open minded" are those that have our society where it is today. No accountability, no morals, no values, if it feels good do it.

Violence because of misunderstanding? Oh, OK. That is the craziest thing I have ever heard.

If we had more Christian values (and from reading your trash, I don't know how you call yourself one), this country would be in a heck of a lot better shape.


----------



## bzrk180

> Let me say that I understand you getting upset if someone thinks they know something about your belief and judges it or you. However, the above statement is a clear judgement of a christians belief.


Can you explain how you see that as a judgment? I see it as a truth...The only way you can know a thing for a certainty is to have experience it or witnessed it yourself.

FAITH is not a judgment statement...Faith is what gets us ALL through this weird and wild world!




> A christian uses faith, but we believe and know that the bible is true


You "know" it BECAUSE you know the strength of your faith right?




> To know an absolute doesn't mean you have to be there. I wasn't there when Sam Houston defeated Santa Anna, but I know it was true based on all the evidence and facts.


True, but to know for a ceratinty what he said at the battle cry or in relief of the conquest, you must rely on faith or have been there. Also, the facts around Sam Houston are pretty universal right? Some of the facts in relationship to the Bible and what Christ did or said are not so concrete.





> The bible is evidence and facts of the only living true God. If you choose not to believe it, that is your choice and I respect it. However, don't turn around and try to discredit others whom choose to see it as truth by say things like, "were you there." That puts people on the defensive and I know you don't like it when it is done to you


I am trying to discredit NO ONE. I am asking a question that is realtive to a statement given....When you say you know a thing absolutely and without question then you are doing so from faith or because you are a witness to it in some way. I still dont see how you associate that with a judgment.




> Bottom line, I think we understand what you believe and if that works for you now,


Beacuse of my faith...And based on the experiences I have had personally in regards to this issue.




> we believe and know that the bible is true and only want to make sure all know the truth before it's too late.


Which is fine with me...I commend you for that. I wish you luck and blessings in your quest.





> The bible states that there is a way that seems right to man, but in the end, it leads to distruction. *Again, if you are right in your beliefs, then none of us has anything to worry about. But, if the bible is right, then you will have lost everything when you die and spend eterenty in hell.*


And if this is a truth then I am clear on this as well...Thank you!




> This is based on the truths of the bible, not anyones opinion.


Which again has been discussed her at some length.




> So, again, if the bible is not right, then you have nothing to sweat as the universal god will accept all men no matter how they lived their lives or what they choose to believe in that "fit" their life styles. BUT, REMEMBE THAT IF THE BIBLE IS RIGHT, YOU HAVE LOST YOUR SOUL.


And again, I have discussed this at some length here too. I have *FAITH* that I am OK.



> That isn't a judgement from me at all b/c it is from the bible.


So as long as I quote the Bible I am not judging? I dont get this...I used statements from the Bible in this thread and was chastised (ok, maybe thats a strong word) for using it.




> I think one thing that is hard to understand is how some people decide to only pick certain verses from the bible and not the entire bible.


Not trying to attcak here, just make a point I guess...Didnt you just do that?




> They usually do this b/c they don't want to admit they are wrong and would then have to face the one true holy living God.[/QUOTE





> ]
> Trust me, this isnt my feelings. I dont think I am right or wrong...I think I have found this portion of my life, my belief system and my spirituality just fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BZRK180, I hope you understand that I am not judging you and if you choose to keep your universal beliefs, then I can only respect your right to do that and can only pray for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! I appreciate the prayers and the concern but truly, I am secure with how I believe and what I believe (which is more than what I could put into words here with.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, if we respect your choice in a universal god, then please respect christians
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have stated time, and time, and time again in this thread that I respect anyones decsion to believe what they want to believe. That doesnt mean I dont have an opinion on what they state. An opinion does not immediately assign judgment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> don't try to discredit it with statements like "were you there."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have decided that was a judgement or an attempt to discredit, not me. I was merely making a point and asking a question to someone other than you. Why you are so offended at this, I dont understand. Like I said before, I can have an opinion without assigning a judgment to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It just keeps the agrument going and going and going b/c we are all human.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This argument has been going on since the begining of it all...It isnt going to stop now or anytime soon... As a matter of fact, in the next 100 years or so, I think this argument is going to get ALOT more bloody and volotile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think all I want you to truly understand are the following:
> 1. That we christians believe and know that the bible is the true word of God.
> 2. That if you are correct in your beliefs, then all of us has nothing to worry about b/c we are all going to make it to heaven when we die.
> 3. That if you are wrong, then the bible is correct and you will spend eternity in hell after death.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fisherman...I dont know how much more I can say to let you know I understand Christian beliefs, why they believe it and what it is...I am VERY clear on that...I completely understand all of it...I however look at it differently..Why is that so hard for people to hear in this thread...I GET WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!!
> 
> Go believe whatever you want, go and pray, go and read, go and worship but if you decide to come into a discussion board and debate or talk about these things, dont think that becasue a person has a differing view that they dont understand yours.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I would bet that I have as much knowledge on Christianity as many in this forum (maybe more).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope and pray that you can understand one day
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And my feelings are that I understand more than you might think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , but I will give you respect for your choice of beliefs. Have a blessed day
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you...You too!
Click to expand...


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## bzrk180

> Solid Action said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alright, I read along until I got to this. The "open minded" are those that have our society where it is today.
> 
> 
> 
> REAAAAALLLLY!!??
> 
> So, how "open minded" are the Muslims? In that regard, how "open minded" are Christians?? You might want to go play in GOOGLE for a little bit. Do you even know why those radical Muslims want us all dead or do you simply not care?
> 
> How "open minded" are those people who blow up abortion clinics? How "open minded" are those PETA freaks? How "open minded" are those people out there spiking trees? How "open minded" are those televangelists out there taking money for "prayer cloths"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No accountability, no morals, no values, if it feels good do it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I feel I am open minded and I take FULL accountability for my actions...I am responsible for EVERYTHING in my life...EV-RE-THING...Are you as accountable?
> 
> I have morals that are strong and I firmly believe in...Be in service to others, give when you can (yes, even to the guy with the sign on the street), I am committed to my wife and love her unconditionally...I work an honest day for an honest wage and know that is an absolute for me. I go out of my way to help others...I trust first and believe in people.... You say I have no marals...PFFFFFTTTT!!! *whatever*!
> 
> Lets go to values....I value the idea of giving freely and expecting nothing in return... I value the idea that all people do the best with what they have...I value my family, my job and love of others.
> 
> But I will agree with you in one thing you stated....If I can still manage all of these things and find a way to "feel good" yep, I am gunna do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Violence because of misunderstanding? Oh, OK. That is the craziest thing I have ever heard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then you dont think or read too much... Lets see...They took a kid in Minnesota (I think that was it) not too long ago, beat him half to death and left him tied to a fencepost because he was gay. You think they were understanding?
> 
> How about those who have been attacked that are owners of convenience stores or Mosques that are defaced...You really think they understand what a Muslim is? Do you?
> 
> How about those sporty dresser in those white hoods...You think they really understand or CARE to understand what some black people have had to endure?
> 
> Again, closed minds to other ideas breed violence...Doesnt mean you have to agree with them but to have an understanding of them can offer a respect to people that maybe you dont understand. Apparently this is too deep for you to grasp.
> 
> Here is a for instance...When I was a cop, I used to have to go and deal with the vietnamese shrimpers...Well, I could (and did) storm in there and demand the "american way" of enforcing the law and that would offer me very little progress and ALOT more paperwork and man hours...Once I understood how that culture worked, I went at it differently in respect for their culture and got more accomplished...
> 
> It could easily have happened that because I disrespected their beliefs and traditions, I or someone else could have gotten hurt because it was seen as blatent disrespect.... VIOLENCE from MISUNDERSTANDING
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we had more Christian values this country would be in a heck of a lot better shape.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are plenty of Christian values in this Country...Its those who choose to live along side of those values. Like people have said in here...Its those who pick and choose which ones best serve them...Is that you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (and from reading your trash, I don't know how you call yourself one)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure I ever proclaimed myself to be a "christian" (in the formal sense of the word)...Are you sure you read this?
> 
> Thanks for helping me make my point in past posts in this thread... You are the epitome of what I was talking about...Thanks for showing your head (or whatever it is you are showing).
> 
> Peace....Brad
Click to expand...


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## atcfisherman

BZRK180,

Thanks for your last reply. I know the bible very well although I must always learn more and more each day. I know that it is true and faithful and I will pray for you to see it how I see it. However, I think I will leave it at that and agree to disagree. 

Outside of this, I think all we can do is respect others, care for others, help others, pray for others and love others as we live out each day. And this I will do for you. Again, thanks for your honesty and respect.


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## bzrk180

atcfisherman said:


> BZRK180,
> I think all we can do is respect others, care for others, help others, pray for others and love others as we live out each day. And this I will do for you. Again, thanks for your honesty and respect.


fisherman, I will tell you one thing...This is something we can ABSOLUTELY agree on.

ANNNND

Is much of what these books debated in here discuss.

Again, please dont let my personal beliefs encourage or discourage you from these books. I think they had much insight and really connected me more witht he Bible than any other source I have ever been turned on to.

As I said, many of my "Bible" beliefs are from my studies at the University where I had to do research and look much deeper at how it was all gathered together. *NOT *from these books.

I encourage ANYONE to read these and take what you will form them... I assure you, they *DO NOT* take away from or encourage you to stray from you personal beliefs. They actually encourage you to believe as you do.

I hope I have not given the impression differently of these books.


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## bzrk180

*As I have read over the posts here, I have to state to any that read these... My beliefs are not exactly what these books speak to, I have formed my beliefs on a number of sources (the Bible being one of them), NOT just these books.*

*These books (IMO)... *

*1. Alighn very much with Biblical ideas and philosophies. *
*2. IN NO WAY try to deter you from your current beliefs.*
*3. Never claim to be the New Bible or anything like the Bible.*
*4. Offer ideas for people to consider...The books NEVER tell you that you should do it this way or that way.*
*5. ARE JUST BOOKS!!*

*If you have picked up a Jole Osteen book or a Jerry Falwell book or any other "spiritual" type book to help you understand more or help you move forward more, I dont see these books as any different.*

I just wanted to make sure I said this clearly. I would love to hear your feedback on the books if you everdecide to pick one up and check it out.


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## activescrape

I can tell you why the ywant us dead. It goes all the way back to Abraham and Sarah. God told them he was going to give them a son. Problem in their mind was that they were like, in their 90's. So, *they took the matter into their own hands*, at least Sarah did. That was the start of it, disobeying God, never a good idea, it causes problems. 
Like if I tell my granddaughter, don't touch the stove, it will hurt, but she does it anyway and gets hurt. I didn't have the hammer, just the wisdom, she disobeyed and suffered the consequenses.
Anyway, back to the story. Sarah sent her servant(a non Jew) in to sleep with old Abraham. Lo and behold, the servant got preggers and had a son. They named his Ishmael. So now they have this counterfiet family, in God's eyes. But wait, Sarah herself gets pregnant by Abraham, God really does work miracles. Isaac is born. The child God promised. Ishmael gets stripped of his birthright, being the first born and gets very bitter and that started the fight between the chosen people/Jews/Isaac and the unchosen people/muslims/Ishmael. They are still at it and the battle to end it all is one you don't want to witness.


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## bzrk180

> activescrape said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you why the ywant us dead. It goes all the way back to Abraham and Sarah.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, partially true... However, they are a people who are truly willing to die for their beliefs,(Some critics say thats why it is the biggest growing religion now. Oh, and was why Christianity flourished as it did; so they say...). They have a devout belief in "their" Bible and are willing to sacrifice their own lives before giving into anything else..
> 
> Anyone in here willing to do that?
> 
> I saw a documentary not too long ago where a Brittish man went and spoke to muslims in their countries. He spoke with the children and asked them why they disliked Christians (Americans really)... Sadly, the propoganda that filled their heads is the same propoganda we fill our childerns heads with in regards to the RADICAL muslims and identifying them all the same way (there is a difference...I assure you!).
> 
> He also spoke to "regular" Muslims and got their take on all of this... The "regular" Muslims (the majority of the population of Muslims) believe completely different. "regular" Muslims are peaceful and believe that "to kill one innocent person is to kill all innocent people" (or something along those lines), BUUUUUT, if their faith is pushed, if their faith is trampled on or disrespected, they will defend that to the death...
> 
> Again, another reason that it is important to UNDERSTAND others because MISUNDERSTANDINGS turn into VIOLENCE (You dont have to agree.... but to understand can create alot of peace)! CLOSED MINDS BREED THIS!!
> 
> Well, I guess this thread just took a different twist...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are still at it and the battle to end it all is one you don't want to witness
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My friend, we ARE witnessing it (and have been for 2000+ years)... I dont think it will end anytime soon.
Click to expand...


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## activescrape

bzrk180 said:


> Yes, partially true... However, they are a people who are truly willing to die for their beliefs,(Some critics say thats why it is the biggest growing religion now. Oh, and was why Christianity flourished as it did; so they say...). They have a devout belief in "their" Bible and are willing to sacrifice their own lives before giving into anything else..
> 
> Anyone in here willing to do that?
> 
> I saw a documentary not too long ago where a Brittish man went and spoke to muslims in their countries. He spoke with the children and asked them why they disliked Christians (Americans really)... Sadly, the propoganda that filled their heads is the same propoganda we fill our childerns heads with in regards to the RADICAL muslims and identifying them all the same way (there is a difference...I assure you!).
> 
> He also spoke to "regular" Muslims and got their take on all of this... The "regular" Muslims (the majority of the population of Muslims) believe completely different. "regular" Muslims are peaceful and believe that "to kill one innocent person is to kill all innocent people" (or something along those lines), BUUUUUT, if their faith is pushed, if their faith is trampled on or disrespected, they will defend that to the death...
> 
> Again, another reason that it is important to UNDERSTAND others because MISUNDERSTANDINGS turn into VIOLENCE (You dont have to agree.... but to understand can create alot of peace)! CLOSED MINDS BREED THIS!!
> 
> Well, I guess this thread just took a different twist...
> 
> My friend, we ARE witnessing it (and have been for 2000+ years)... I dont think it will end anytime soon.
> 
> 
> 
> No Brad, I said the battle to end it all, not the ongoing battle. There will be a winner, once and for all. It will end.
> 
> And, please Christians have been dying for their faith since the beginning, and still do. Just mostly not with a suicide vest on in a crowded restaurant.
> We are blessed to live in American where we are not persecuted to that extent.
> And no, not partially true, that is what started it all.
Click to expand...


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## Mrs Backlasher

Just a note. Christians are not accountable for unbelievers. As we have opportunity, we present the good news that we can be reconciled to God through the atoning blood of Jesus. The rest is up to God. If the Spirit of God does not draw the unbeliever, that person will remain in his unbelief. IF the Spirit of God draws the person, then the person will exercise their free will either to accept or to reject Jesus. We cannot argue people into the Kingdom of God. We attempt to show the love of God.

A lot has been said about free will and our ability to choose. But God also has free will.

Matthew 11:27 (NIV)

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him."

We don't actually "find" God. He chooses to reveal himself to us. The Bible is God's progressive revelation to mankind. As we get God's Word out to people, it doesn't return to God void, but will accomplish God's will. 

Isaiah 55:6-11 (NIV)

"Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. 'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the Lord. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: it will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.' "


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## bzrk180

> activescrape said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bzrk180 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No Brad, I said the battle to end it all, not the ongoing battle. There will be a winner, once and for all. It will end.
> 
> 
> 
> You might be right...Only time will tell!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, please Christians have been dying for their faith since the beginning, and still do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What "Christians" do you know that are dying *for* their faith right now(or are willing to on that alone)...Here in this Country I mean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just mostly not with a suicide vest on in a crowded restaurant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True...That is true...There have been a couple of whack jobs who have blown themselves up at those abortion clinics though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are blessed to live in American where we are not persecuted to that extent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And no, not partially true, that is what started it all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I will agree with you on this (I will have to...I am not as up to date on this aspect of it) but that is not what was stated in the question...There is more to it now than what happened to start it.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Txfirenfish

All I have to say to bzrk is you are speaking out of ignorance. You make yourself sound like an educated informed person, but you have obviously intentionally studied idealogies that are meant to disagree with the Bible. I am not meaning to attack you either, but the Bible does dismiss every single argument you have made. Dont believe me? Then I challenge you to read it for yourself because I truly believe that you havent. I could discount everything you have said as well, but I do not come to this site to get in arguments of any sort. I come for fishing related topics. People are going to believe what they want to believe and no amount of arguing will change their minds.


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## TexasWhaler

bzrk180 said:


> What "Christians" do you know that are dying *for* their faith right now(or are willing to on that alone)...Here in this Country I mean.
> 
> 
> 
> Take a looksey. And there are many more out there.
> 
> http://www.armyofgod.com/POClist.html
Click to expand...


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## bzrk180

> Txfirenfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> All I have to say to bzrk is you are speaking out of ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe so...You can judge as you wish!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You make yourself sound like an educated informed person, but you have obviously intentionally studied idealogies that are meant to disagree with the Bible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, you will stand corrected here... I studied what was required for me to study at my "Christian" University. I chose the school, they chose the courses. Oh, and by the way, those courses werent "Anti-Bible" courses... They were historical classes that taught how the Christian Church was built and became what it is today.
> 
> You are welcome to write my University and explain to them your disgust of their teachings....www.schreiner.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not meaning to attack you either,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK, I will take you saying I am "speaking out of ignorance" as unattacking then. I have used this wording myself in arguments. Thanks for the clarity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but the Bible does dismiss every single argument you have made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said it didnt... What I stated was some of the historical documentation that has been brought to light about the Bible...I am sure it dismisses all of that historical data.
> 
> Remind me where the Bible discounts the Nicean Council and the other councils (in reality, does the Bible mention them at all?)... Your right, I must have missed that when I was flipping though the pages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont believe me? Then I challenge you to read it for yourself because I truly believe that you havent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are right...I have not read it from cover to cover and I think if you go back and read all the posts here, I never stated I was a Biblical Scholar. I never stated that I knew it all... As a matter of fact, I think I have confessed the very thing you took so much time to type to me..Thanks
> 
> What I gave was my opinion based on what I have studied. And I also originally started in this thread to tell my point of view in regards to the books that started this thread because I have read them... I am not sure how it got twisted like it is.
> 
> I also (not sure why) supported some of my ideas that I have, based on other sources outside of the Bible that speak about its conception. By the way, what is it you have studied outside of the Bible?
> 
> Ahhhhh yes...ignorance is bliss!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could discount everything you have said as well, but I do not come to this site to get in arguments of any sort.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmmmmm, OK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I come for fishing related topics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmmmmm, then what are you doing here? There was nothing related to fishing in the header or in the body of this post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People are going to believe what they want to believe and no amount of arguing will change their minds
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> See, we do agree on something!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Peace...Brad
Click to expand...


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## bzrk180

TexasWhaler said:


> bzrk180 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Take a looksey. And there are many more out there.
> 
> http://www.armyofgod.com/POClist.html
> 
> 
> 
> I stand corrected.... People blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors in the name of God...
> 
> Fine example of Christianity!
> 
> These are great huh?? (from the site)
> 
> *Stephen Jordi *
> 
> *Caught planning to blow up babykilling abortion mills. *
> *10 years. *
> *(Stephen's own brother and his church sold him out to the authorities. Another example not tell ANYONE; before, during or after, if you are planning on taking action. Your family, pro-lifers and your church 'friends' will sell you out in a heartbeat, thinking they are doing God's will.)*
> 
> *Eric Rudolph*
> Confessed to bombing babykilling abortion mills. Also confessed to killing an off duty cop that was guarding the babykilling abortionist and the abortion mill so they could kill babies in peace
> 
> *David Robert McMenemy *
> On September 11, 2006 AD, David doused his car with gasoline and drove it through the glass doors of Edgerton Women's Health Center in Davenport, Iowa which he thought was a babykilling abortion mill. David had good intentions and tried to save unborn babies from being murdered by a babykilling abortionist. More than we have done to save the lives of children being murdered
> 
> 
> Man, if this is the example, I guess I am glad I am not a "Christian" then...
> 
> I say that with tounge in cheek folks...
Click to expand...


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## TexasWhaler

You asked for examples of Christians willing to pay the ultimate price for their Faith. You got it.

As you have urged others to be respectful when talking about your organization, I suggest you give these Christian soldiers the respect they deserve.

These are folks that are willing to die, to save precious, unborn babies.


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## bzrk180

> TexasWhaler said:
> 
> 
> 
> You asked for examples of Christians willing to pay the ultimate price for their Faith. You got it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I did..Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you have urged others to be respectful when talking about your organization, I suggest you give these Christian soldiers the respect they deserve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure I disrespected them..I was sheding light on their missions by showing others. Maybe you should join up?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are folks that are willing to die, to save precious, unborn babies
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And kill others. Way to go!!
> 
> Yup, this thread has turned and twisted to nomans land for sure!
Click to expand...


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## bzrk180

Before this gets locked up, I want to personally thank everyone who took the time to chat along in all of this. Sorry it has twisted and turned like it has and if that was of my doing, I apologize.

Peace....Brad


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## TexasWhaler

bzrk180 said:


> And kill others. Way to go!!
> 
> 
> 
> Killing murderers, and their accomplices - only the people who are directly involved with the murdering.
> 
> You see, to a Christian, allowing abortion clinics to kill, is just as bad as allowing someone were to walk into an orphanage, and start killing children - for no other reason than their families didn't want them.
Click to expand...


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## bzrk180

Whaler, I ma leaning towards you being a troll and if you arent, then I am leaning towards being scared!



> TexasWhaler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bzrk180 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Killing murderers, and their accomplices - only the people who are directly involved with the murdering.
> 
> 
> 
> Murdering people in the name of God is obscene...I dont care how you put it. It is NO DIFFERENT Than those who attacked the towers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You see, to a Christian, allowing abortion clinics to kill, is just as bad as allowing someone were to walk into an orphanage , and start killing children -
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmmmmm, I bet there are many Christians on here that would disagree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for no other reason than their families didn't want them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> WOW!! you are twisted! Even if you are a troll...To make these staements like this in this room? Man....Nevermind......
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## TexasWhaler

No trolling, I assure you.

If my statements offended anyone, I apologize. That was not my intention.

I was simply making a point, and trying to illustrate how seriously the issue of abortion is viewed by some of us.


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## atcfisherman

As much as we christians don't want to see unborn babies aborted, the bible doesn't command us to go kill others. God will take care of it and we can help through prayer and love. To praise someone whom "killed in the name of God" isn't what christians are to do. Yes, we understand they wanted to stop the abortions just like us, but taking a stand doesn't mean killing. Heck, that goes against God's 10 commandments. So, there is no justification for that.

To be a martar for Christ is someone whom is being persecuted because they are a christian and refuses to denounce Christ.


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## atcfisherman

Let me also say that there is a major difference in standing up for Christ and the Christian faith and being a terrorist. There are muslums and other who say they are standing for God when blowing up something and thus paying the ultimate price, but that doesn't mean it is right. The same thing about christians killing people at abortion clinics "in the name of Christ." I guess some think they can disregard some commands like, "THOU SHALL NOT KILL" to justify their views.

I am a christian and I am thankful for Jesus Christ and all of His grace and mercy and forgiveness to me. And, I will always defend the faith, but in doing so I will not go against God's word and God will never go against His word either. If He did, He would then be a liar and we know God isn't a liar, so what the bible teaches is true.


----------

