# 19 turn spec motor tuning.



## Gary (May 21, 2004)

This is what I have found so far. Cut and pasted.

For the most part '19 turn' spec motors respond to the same types of things that a stock motor will. Triming the width of the laydown brush is one thing that tends to help on both 19 turn spec motors and stock motors.

Personaly I feel triming only the trailing edge of the brush is better then triming both sides of the brush (ala Big Jim's MVP type brush)... Try removing .015" from the trailing edge only, I suspect you'll like this. From what I've seen triming more then .015" total from the width of a brush generaly hurts proformance more then it helps, so if you trim both sides, try just removing .007" or so from each side.

Try it on a MVP or any stock motor... it generaly helps any motor with laydown brushes.

For 19 turn... Red green springs may be a bit on the soft side... might want to try a purple red combo insted...



Big Jim

The only change I make between 4 cell and 6 cell tuning is the spring tension, well, sometimes brush choice. I wouldn't use the Putnam's on 6 cells but they work great on 4. This is simply ecause they have so much siover in them they are devastating to the comm in 6 cell TC. A heavy car with lots of traction and drive train loss is not the ideal enviornment for them.

I recommend for TC a Reedy #767 on the pos and a Reedy #766 on the neg. Springs: 6.5 to 7.0 F.S. units for the pos and 6 to 6.5 on the neg. F.S. Units= Fiddle Stick Measurement. The Trinity colors are and equivalent F.S. units are on my website ynder the tunign tips link. I think purples are 7.5 and reds 6.5 but you can tweak around at least a 1/2 a unit by bending the springs. But you should have a gauge to check them. For a little more rpm at the sacrifice of a little torque, you can put #767's on both sides but your comm wear and maintenance will be more too.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

I'll move this question here. They sell 2 arms for the Chameleon 2, a standard and a crosswrap. What's the performance difference? More torque from one, more RPM from the other?


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

What Im coming up with mostly on the Cameleon 2 motor is, Reedy 767 brushes and tweaking the springs. The other choice is running the Trinity XXX brushes. But they are $14 a set. lol

I also just noticed that the big "T" stole one my tuning tricks.  Insted of buying a brush serrator, I wiuld re-do them with a 3/8" rat tail file. Since the file is tapered, I would fit the part of the files diameter that fit the conture of the brush and just twist the file making new serrations. What was different though is now the serrations are diaganol and not straight. I found that is was much faster, had more amp draw on the Turbo30, and wore better on the comm.

I used to have stock motors that would pull wheelies in my buggies. LOL

Ernie stole my idea. LOL


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

cjtamu said:


> I'll move this question here. They sell 2 arms for the Chameleon 2, a standard and a crosswrap. What's the performance difference? More torque from one, more RPM from the other?


I saw that somewhere, but I cant remember where. I think it was RC Tech.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

I can promise you Tol knows, and probably Cristian. Matter of fact, I'm going to e-mail Joe and I'll then a have a PhD dissertation on it, LOL.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

cjtamu said:


> I can promise you Tol knows, and probably Cristian. Matter of fact, I'm going to e-mail Joe and I'll then a have a PhD dissertation on it, LOL.


LOL!

I wonder if Joe will get back into TCs?

BTW, Im still searching. Im learning.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Found this.


Regardless of its hemi wound or not.....as long as its spinning in the correct direction, it will be running at 24 degrees (not sure where you got 27) advance.....whoever made up this stupid myth about it retard timing is nuts....

The reason it runs backwards is that stock motors are crosswrapped, which requires the magnets to be in the can different than a modified motor....however, timing still is advanced or retarded in the same direction with the endbell, as its based on rotation, not the magnet configuration....


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Here.



For some more background, there are MANY types of 19t motors "out there"...

In the US, there is a whole group of what are called ARCOR 19t motors, based on the ARCOR 4-cell Oval racing rules (standard Mod motor 2-magnet cans, older style "standup" brushes, ball bearings, adjustable timing, etc.). One internal clue on these motors is that they are wound in the "mabuchi"/cross-wrap style, meaning that the wires CROSS each other as each coil connects to the comm, like stock motor armature winds. Most of these ARCOR 19t motors are hand-wound for greater precision and consistency, but at a higher cost. Almost all of the US motor builders offer some form of ARCOR legal 19t, but prices are in the $55-60 range or higher.

As mentioned in the other post, "fixed endbell" 19t requires that the endbell be locked/"fixed" at 24 degrees of timing advance to create a "spec" form of racing for 19t motors. Most of these motors will have "laydown" style brushes like the current Stock motors, but with ball bearings in the can and endbell. The armatures in these motors are very nearly identical to those in the US "ARCOR" stock motors, except most are wound like Modified motors in what is sometimes called "hemi-wind" style, equal to about 1/2 turn less wire than the "ARCOR"/"mabuchi" wind armatures. These armatures are generally machine wound, making them more affordable (near the price of stock motors), but slightly more inconsistent from one motor to the next.

I've used the Orion Green label (Element) 19t fixed endbell motors and the EPIC based (Chameleon and Chameleon 2) motors, and they are both good motors, but I've found the Chameleon 2's to outperform the Orion's by a small margin. Atlas also offers a 19t fixed endbell, but they are rare in the US, and I have not tried them.

Probably WAY more than you wanted to know, but....

The bottom line is that your Chameleon 2 is an excellent choice for "fixed endbell" 19t racing!


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

ROAR rule about stock motors. Im not sure yet if it applies to 19 turn spec.

8.5.4.4 Stock motors must be machine wound using a "Mabuchi" cross wrap technique, and must incorporate a design that locks the commutator to the armature stack so that the timing cannot be changed without disassembling the motor.


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## Tol Thomas (Feb 18, 2005)

The difference betweenthe Hemi Wrap and the Cross Wrap is nothing in performance, just how they were wrapped ad how the magnets have to placed in the can to allow the motor to run in the correct rotation.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Tol, has the Reedy Quad mag been ROAR approved yet?


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## CristianTabush (Apr 8, 2005)

Do not run the arcor motors... They suck for touring cars. They run standup brushes and produce no real power compared to other motors with laydown stock motors. They are higher quality because they tend to be hand wound and adjustable timing, but no laydown brush.

Btw, to add it is very important to break in motors for at least 10 min at 3v, or the motor will burn up after 2 or 3 runs with the high silver content brushes.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Looks like its the C2 for me. I have allways been a Epic based guy anyway. I wonder how "Hootch" will work on the Comm????


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Cristian, do you use the hooch for comm drops for break in or do you use something else?


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

I doubt he does.


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## CristianTabush (Apr 8, 2005)

they are actually pretty good from what I've tried on my break in feature on my charger. They seem to lubricate really well and at the same time increase efficiency (drop amp draw) while increasing rpm.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

CristianTabush said:


> they are actually pretty good from what I've tried on my break in feature on my charger. They seem to lubricate really well and at the same time increase efficiency (drop amp draw) while increasing rpm.


Really? For break in? I dont get it. Why would you want to lube the brush/comm contact area while breaking in the motor? Arnt we trying to remove brush material so it will conform to the comm?


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## Tol Thomas (Feb 18, 2005)

Not that I know of Gary. But of coarse if I am not mistaken no 19 turn has Roar approval. I am just going to go off fixed endbell and the stock 19 turn arm that comes with it. And I will prolly only do the checks if people protest someones motor. This is for charity so I am not going to be restrictive on what mtoor is allowed and which is not as long as it fits in the class by definition.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Tol Thomas said:


> Not that I know of Gary. But of coarse if I am not mistaken no 19 turn has Roar approval. I am just going to go off fixed endbell and the stock 19 turn arm that comes with it. And I will prolly only do the checks if people protest someones motor. This is for charity so I am not going to be restrictive on what mtoor is allowed and which is not as long as it fits in the class by definition.


I checked with Dawn and the only one that is ROAR approved is the C2. I aggree with you though. Since were not running "Pure" Spec classes, lets allow all locked timing 19 turns.

Thanks bro!


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## zxeric (Feb 22, 2005)

will brushless be allowed in mod ?


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

zxeric said:


> will brushless be allowed in mod ?


Excellent question! Tol?

PD2


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Brushless is the Devil! Ha ha ha ha ha. Biff, you wanna hit Mike's this weekend?


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

cjtamu said:


> Brushless is the Devil! Ha ha ha ha ha. Biff, you wanna hit Mike's this weekend?


Ill be working Saturday. I still need to get some packs and stuff. Im not ready to run yet. I should be ready by the end of the month.


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