# Livewell Oxygen System - An Alternative Approach



## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

In the another thread, Livewell Oxygen System, I threw out there that the lack of oxygen was not the main issue that is killing your bait in the livewell. I also mentioned that there is a very easy and free alternative solution to the expensive oxygen systems.

Sgrem was kind enough to share his effective method for keeping bait alive in his livewell. First I'll share Sgrem's entire solution, then I'll break it down and explain some things and offer some suggestions:



sgrem said:


> The key is fresh water exchange. Pump in new water and let the old overflow out. I have mine on a livewell timer. On one minute.....off for zero to 12 minutes.
> 
> I also have a lil bubbler that i use from the bait stand to the boat ramp or over night.
> 
> ...


There you go. It doesn't get much easier and cheaper than that. Now let's break this down...



sgrem said:


> The key is fresh water exchange.


Bingo! This is the simple caveman procedure that all of you can do on your own. This really works.

Before we go further into this procedure, letâ€™s first talk about the main culprit that is killing your expensive shrimp and croakers in the livewell. Once you know and understand what the culprit is, youâ€™ll better understand why this procedure works. This is a high-level explanation and some details are omitted for brevity. I write and share this with you this as a PSA. Obviously, continue reading only if you're interested.

The invisible culprit that is most often killing your expensive livewell creatures isâ€¦â€¦

Ammonia.

Ammonia is lethal to the fish and invertebrates (e.g. shrimp) as it affects their gills and their breathing. Where does ammonia come from? Ammonia is naturally released into the water from the living creatures themselves through respiration, through waste excretions, and when they die. In a densely populated and â€˜closedâ€™ environment (e.g. a livewell, a bucket, an aquarium, etc.), ammonia builds up quickly and it becomes toxic to its inhabitants unless something is done to manage it.

Ammonia is the beginning stage of the nitrogen cycle, which occurs in this order: Ammonia -> Nitrites -> Nitrates. Out in the wild, specialized colonies of bacteria are present in the water and the specialized bacteria are responsible for breaking down and converting the elements in this 3 part cycle. This nitrogen conversion cycle takes time to complete, literally days and weeks, because it takes time for the good bacteria to form and multiply and it takes time to perform the conversion cycle. In a livewell, you only have creatures in there for a short amount of time. There isn't time to build up the needed specialized bacteria colonies, and there was no pre-existing active bacteria in the livewell when you put the critters in.

In the scheme of things, ammonia is the most toxic of the three. Nitrates and nitrates are toxic too but less so and they occur later in the conversion cycle. For this conversation, Iâ€™ll just refer to it all as ammonia.

Most of you are aware or have heard of starting up a saltwater aquarium at home. You know that you cannot stock your new tank with fish right off the bat or they will all soon die. What you do is put one or two very hardy (and cheap sacrificial) fish like Blue Damsels into the new tank to provide ammonia and start the nitrogen cycle. *You can also add some starter bacteria to accelerate the bacteria colony buildup.* Sometimes the damsels survive up to the time the tank is ready for stocking fish. Sometimes they die, and then you just buy a couple of more and throw them in. Once again, this process can take several weeks before the tank is ready to support livestock successfully. Now back to your boat livewell.

Your livewell is like an aquarium. It is a closed system. By closed, it means there is no outside water coming in to replace or replenish the existing water. In a closed system, the water quality continues to decline each minute as its living inhabitantsâ€™ poop, pee, and excrete ammonia. Dead decaying creatures compound the issue.

Sgrem's water changes do two very important things:

1. It physically removes water that contains ammonia and ammonia producing waste matter.
2. Replacing bad water with fresh water also helps introduce fresh clean oxygenated water into your livewell

In addition to these steps, I would also suggest another step:

3. Frequently check for and remove all dead creatures ASAP. Also remove the dying or almost dead creatures too as they'll expire soon, when youâ€™re not looking, and then sit there decaying and emitting ammonia until you remove it.

Now back to the procedure....



sgrem said:


> Pump in new water and let the old overflow out. I have mine on a livewell timer. On one minute.....off for zero to 12 minutes.
> 
> I also have a lil bubbler that i use from the bait stand to the boat ramp or over night.


This automated method of bringing in new fresh water is excellent. Overflow out of the top is good too as proteins and other bits of waste often floats and accumulates on the waterâ€™s surface. I personally just manually pull the plug at the bottom of the livewell and drain out ~30-50% of the old water. I perform this process 2-3 times a day, depending on conditions. After draining out the bad water, I turn on the livewell pump to bring in new water. I normally keep the water level about 1/3 full in the livewell. But that all depends on how much livestock you have in there. Draining water from the bottom is beneficial too as waste matter often settles on the bottom and draining from the bottom sucks the waste particles out. Youâ€™ll need to prevent the critters from being sucked out with the old water. I just cover the drain hole with my hand and shoo away the critters when they come too close. Donâ€™t casually let a critter get sucked out that through the livewell drain hole. If your livewell is like mine, that drain hole goes through a length of hosing in the hull and bait can get stuck and die in the hose and start to stink. When your boat is in dry storage, youâ€™ll scratch your head and wonder where that faint whiff of dead bait comes from.

On the subject of bubbles....whether the bubbles come from a simple battery air pump and blue airstone from the bait stand, or from a fancy aluminum oxygen bottle with a high dollar regulator and special micro bubbler diffuser....all bubbles function the same. They rise and pop. You can introduce high dollar pure O2 bubbles, blow air bubbles with a battery powered pump, you can blow air through a straw, or you could even fart a few bubbles underwater. Big bubbles, tiny bubbles, smelly bubbles. They all rise and pop. (If the bubbles only accumulate at the surface and resist popping, you may have a different water quality issue). Sgrem's battery powered bubbler is dependable and cost effective. If it wears out, he goes and buys another one. Notice he only uses the bubbler overnight or when transporting bait from the bait stand to the water. When out fishing during the day, only water changes are performed. No bubbles.

How many of you with fancy oxygen rigs are willing (or wanting) to take this leap of faith and try this procedure for one outing?

Mythbuster.....the presence of bubbles in the water does not indicate a high amount of dissolved oxygen in the water. Living aquatic creatures do not need bubbles to breathe and they cannot use a bubble to breathe from. Those advertisements that show giant clouds of persistent micro bubbles in the water are misleading. The livewell inhabitants donâ€™t want their environment full of bubbles. They donâ€™t do bubbles. That is not natural and that does not help them breathe. Bubbles in the water means super oxygenated water?....BS. Bubbles in the water means bubbly water?...Fact.

Even though the livewell creatures don't use bubbles to breathe with, bubbles do serve a function.....a mechanical function. When a bubble rise and pop at the surface, the bubbles increase the water's surface area (a good thing) and the popping aides in the exchange of gasses at the surface....i.e. release of CO2 from the water and into the atmosphere and entry of dissolved oxygen from the atmosphere and into the water.

In Sgrem's case, he uses a battery operated air pump when he keeps bait overnight. This is required as his boat or bait container will be sitting motionless all night. That motionless water needs something to break up the surface and facilitate the exchange of gas at the surface. During the day, the boat is moving around, waves rock the boat while at rest, and water changes occur. The movement sloshes around the water, agitating the water's surface

In my case and Sgrem's case, the ammonia is controlled through water changes. In my case, I don't use any bubbles. I perform multiple water changes in a day and each time, fresh oxygenated water is blown in through a nozzle into the live well, which aerates the fresh new water as it comes in. During the summer, I can get by with 2-3 water changes and everything stays alive and kicking. Also, if there is any chop or waves rocking the boat, the sloshing and splashing inside the livewell breaks the surface tension of the water and the aides the exchanges of gases at the surface.



sgrem said:


> The fresh water pumped in from where you are fishing also gets them acclimated to that area.
> 
> If you keep your bait super lively in prestine hyper oxygenated water.....then throw them into completely different water they are not acclimated to....well i have to believe they would be somewhat stunted and not as lively....vs being acclimated to then cast into the same water they were just in.


Good stuff. I agree on the acclimation point and I agree that it is detrimental to their well being when you introduce them to two different environments quickly. You want your expensive bait to stay lively on the hook. Otherwise, youâ€™re paying a lot for fresh dead.

I had saltwater fish tanks and reef tanks for years. I custom built my wet/dry biological filtration system and I used a protein skimmer. I learned a lot about the nitrogen cycle through reading literature and books written by marine biologists and expensive hard knocks. I also learned how dissolved oxygen enters the waterâ€¦.naturally at the waterâ€™s surface or directly from plants during photosynthesis. Through the aquarium hobby and experience, I learned what a bubble does and what it does not do and how to keep marine creatures alive in a closed environment.

Donâ€™t take my word for any of this. Do your own research on ammonia, the effects of ammonia on marine creatures, and the nitrogen cycle. Validate this on your own, but use sources other than the marketing materials provided by the oxygen equipment vendors because that information will be biased.

This was way more than I wanted to write. It is also probably more than you wanted to read. I hate buying things I don't really need. I appreciate when somebody shares an alternative approach that makes sense and saves me time, money, etc. That is why I like 2Cool. I have learned many things from all of you. Hopefully, some of you learn something from this.

I highlighted 1 sentence in bold blue. There is more I could say about that sentence relative to keeping things alive in a livewell. But that only extends my drivel so I'll shut up now. Comments welcomed.


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## That Robbie Guy (Aug 11, 2009)

GREAT informative post!


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Great information. Thanks for taking the time.

I put this same livewell setup in the rear hatch of my old boat. One weekend i had a group hire me for a tournament and they wanted to use croaker. I drove to ten different bait stands to scratch together TEN DOZEN croaker which was allllllllll that was around. Put all ten dozen in that one livewell for about 18 hours. Filled the hatch on the other side with salt water as well.

Kept the bubbler on that one side the whole time.

Every couple hours i used a bucket and scooped out about 3-4 gallons or so out.....and filled it back with a scoop of the fresh water. All this while sitting in my driveway....

When i launched at the ramp tourney morning i had two dead croaker.


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## tngbmt (May 30, 2004)

with sabine having zero salinity .. how would frequent water change affect shrimp?


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

tngbmt said:


> with sabine having zero salinity .. how would frequent water change affect shrimp?


I donâ€™t truly know but I will offer suggestions. If wade fishermen are using live bait, talk to them and see how long their bucket of bait is lasting. Or, take a bucket with you and experiment first with a few shrimp on a smaller scale in the bucket. That way you donâ€™t risk the entire lot.

Also, talk to the bait camp where you buy your bait and ask them where they source their water from. Some are located on the water and they use that local water, which may be as fresh as the water youâ€™re fishing in. The bait camp guys can tell you more.

As far as water quality goes, the water that the bait is living in at the bait camp is good stuff. That bait camp water has reached a balanced state with good bacteria that has been growing in their filtration systems for a very long time. Donâ€™t immediately discard that water. All of that good water needs to go into your live well as part of the starting water.....most of the time. Sometimes that water isnâ€™t so good. There can be exceptions.

Good question. Report back if you discover anything.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

*Coastal bait camp livewell water quality A MARINE ADVISORY*



habanerojooz said:


> Report back if you discover anything.


*Sea Grant College Program â€" Texas A&M University* Publication, 20 years ago.

Topic - â€œLiveBait Recirculating Systems for Coastal Locationsâ€ 

Another option for Commercial Bait tank water quality management on the Texas Coast - Google this: *â€œLive Bait Recirculating Systems for Coastal Locationsâ€* 

Check it out, any thoughts or opinions?


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

tngbmt said:


> with sabine having zero salinity .. how would frequent water change affect shrimp?


Well if they wont live in the water.....then they wont be very effective as bait.... in the water..


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## tngbmt (May 30, 2004)

sgrem said:


> Well if they wont live in the water.....then they wont be very effective as bait.... in the water..


rather them die on the hook trying then in the livewell.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

JJohnson34 said:


> *Sea Grant College Program â€" Texas A&M University* Publication, 20 years ago.
> 
> Topic - â€œLiveBait Recirculating Systems for Coastal Locationsâ€
> 
> ...


In summary, this appears to be a paper that was a commissioned by a commercial interest.

I had to read it a couple of times to make sure it wasn't just a first impression.

1. The article starts out with a premise and it makes little effort to support that premise with citations, links to independent studies, no bibliography, etc.

2. Then with little premise support, the article takes the reader down a path which focuses on a solution design.

3. This tone is odd for what I originally thought would be a scientific article.

4. So what is being advocated here? Bait camp 'closed' systems vs bait camp 'open' systems?

5. Is this also advocating pumping in pure O2 into bait camp systems?

Boyd's sells O2 tanks. One would think that they'd be big advocates for pumping pure O2 into their system of holding tanks. That operational choice seems like a giant margin killer. The next time I drop in to Boyd's, I'll inquire whether they're using pure O2 in their commercial holding tanks there at the bait camp.

Less relevant to this topic thread, but interesting to know, I'll also ask whether Boyd's has an 'open' or 'closed' system.

Thanks for sharing!


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## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

Great post

A tip the state biologist gave me was water exchanges when we were collecting flounder for the hatchery..... the ammonia build up burns their gills and killing them later.

The water exchanges are the key- dropping temp with frozen water bottles is NOT GOOD

You take a bait and drop or raise its temp quickly and you put it into shock......

For salinity changes you go slow too.....if your fishing real fresh but buying live bait with high salinity water again adjust it slowly....clearly if you dump shrimp into fresh water from where the Kay sits you will kill it...... but slowly adding some fresh to salt helps (but all fresh will kills it- then again what salt water fish are in fresh?)


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## ddakota (Jun 28, 2009)

All excellent points and sums it up. Bad water is your enemy with any live bait. Doesnâ€™t matter how fancy your O2 system is, if youâ€™re pumping O2 into bad water, you still get dead bait.

I fish out of a 20â€™ GC without a built in livewell. I use the Engle 30 Quart Bait Cooler which gives me portability. I bought a higher quality stone for microbubbles. A pair of D Batteries last 2 trips of 8-10 hrs, easily.

https://www.engelcoolers.com/englbc30-n-30qt-live-bait-dry-box-cooler.html

I change the water maybe 2x, but not all the water, about half.

One important point I would add to this thread is I add Pogey Saver (or similar treatment) to start, and more when I swap water. The water treatment additive does a great job of treating the water, removing chemicals such as ammonia, chlorine, preventing foam, etc. Iâ€™ve kept shrimp alive all day with this setup.

https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/sure-life-10-oz-pogey-saver#repChildCatid=12028


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## riopga (Feb 15, 2017)

*Burlap in livewell?*

I read an article that said the old salts put a burlap bag in their livewell to give the shrimp something to hang on to so that they didn't get beat up washing around the tank. Do you think it would make a difference?


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

ddakota said:


> All excellent points and sums it up. Bad water is your enemy with any live bait. Doesnâ€™t matter how fancy your O2 system is, if youâ€™re pumping O2 into bad water, you still get dead bait.
> 
> I fish out of a 20â€™ GC without a built in livewell. I use the Engle 30 Quart Bait Cooler which gives me portability. I bought a higher quality stone for microbubbles. A pair of D Batteries last 2 trips of 8-10 hrs, easily.
> 
> ...


Ddakota hit upon the one line in bold blue in my opening post, the one where I said I could say more.

In the aquarium hobby, there are products available that deal with ammonia, chlorine, etc. and they work. Pogey Saver is a product that does those things for fishermen in their livewell.

I've never tried PS, but I do believe in the concept because similar stuff works in the aquarium hobby. It's great to see positive confirmation from Ddakota that it works for him.

I was researching a product sold in the aquarium industry used for attacking ammonia. It comes in a bottle and you add it by the drop. It seemed to be more economical than the bottles of PS. I forgot the name now but I'll go back and find it.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

riopga said:


> I read an article that said the old salts put a burlap bag in their livewell to give the shrimp something to hang on to so that they didn't get beat up washing around the tank. Do you think it would make a difference?


I read that too and wondered. I bet they get sloshed around a good bit. Perhaps I should drop my GoPro camera in to the live well and turn the live well light on. See first hand how my livewell passengers like the WOT ride across a choppy Galveston Bay with no seat belts and nothing to hang on to. I bet that is a wild time in there, especially when I hit a big ship wake. Perhaps the ammonia levels spike up from their excitement excretions. :smile:

It seems that if they're suspended in the water, they would absorb less impact versus holding on to something. Pure speculation on my part. IDK.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

Muddskipper said:


> Great post
> 
> A tip the state biologist gave me was water exchanges when we were collecting flounder for the hatchery..... the ammonia build up burns their gills and killing them later.
> 
> ...


Good stuff.

That is consistent with everything that I've read about ammonia...it affects their gills, and this impairment affects their ability to breathe.

Once again, this underscores the point. It's not the lack of oxygen that is killing them. They're dying because their critical breathing organs (e.g. gills) are being scorched by the ammonia.

People should take note the next time things are dying off in the livewell. Notice that the creatures are stressed out and panting heavily. This behavior is exactly the same physical reaction seen when cycling in a new saltwater aquarium with live fish. When cycling a saltwater tank, you use a kit to measure water quality parameters every day. You see the ammonia spike in the beginning and you see the fish begin to suffer and die over during that high ammonia period.

Gradual is a good thing and shocking is bad. That's one of the reasons why water changes are never 100%. It's always a partial replenishment just for this reason.

Warm water does hold less oxygen though....thus when you replenish your livewell with new water, it's best to do it over open deeper water which should be cooler and have higher dissolved oxygen content than the shallow warm water in the knee deep flats.


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## reb (Aug 12, 2005)

The guys at Eagle Point have some of the best live bait and their advice is to never turn off the livewell pump. Constant flow of new water to the well is all you need. Remove dead bait ASAP from tank.


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## ddakota (Jun 28, 2009)

riopga said:


> I read an article that said the old salts put a burlap bag in their livewell to give the shrimp something to hang on to so that they didn't get beat up washing around the tank. Do you think it would make a difference?


Iâ€™ve got plastic window screen attached to the 4 walls of my bait cooler with Velcro strips. Gives the shrimp something to hang onto and they definitely use it.


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## capt. david (Dec 29, 2004)

Hot water and ammonia build up kills bait. I use a air pump connected to my battery, with 2 air stones. During the summer be careful pulling in water from the surface of the bay. It is hot and you never know if you run cross contaminated water. Cool water with a air system= healthy bait.


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

*About flushing that ammonia out of the livewell*

I have heard and read that these VT-2 air vents do a great job off-gassing ammonia. Theyâ€™re cheap (< $25each), quick and simple to install. Tournament bass guys rave about these livewell vents in the bass fishing forums. They claim the vent is the best livewell technology advancement since spray bars and bubblers. They get rid ofthe ammonia. Any of you guys tried these VT-2 livewell vents?


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

JJohnson34 said:


> I have heard and read that these VT-2 air vents do a great job off-gassing ammonia. Theyâ€™re cheap (< $25each), quick and simple to install. Tournament bass guys rave about these livewell vents in the bass fishing forums. They claim the vent is the best livewell technology advancement since spray bars and bubblers. They get rid ofthe ammonia. Any of you guys tried these VT-2 livewell vents?


A great example of product marketing using a fact in a subtle but misleading way. People fall for it because it seems logical. The reality is, they're being fooled. Nevertheless, I'm sure there are many happy customers.

But if you look hard at the product, reread my original post, and do your own research, you will come to this conclusion.

That product is nothing more than a vent hole in your livewell lid. The people buying this product are following a line of logic that appears to be something like this:

a. Ammonia is the factor impairing the creatures in the water.
b. The water is contained in the livewell.
c. Ammonia has an odor. People can smell it.
d. Therefore, a livewell vent is a good thing. It lets the ammonia out.

That point of view is flawed and the marketing is misleading in my humble opinion. This is the reality of the situation.

1. Ammonia is the factor impairing the creatures in the water.
2. The water is contained in the livewell.
3. The ammonia is contained in the water.
4. Ammonia in the water is not reduced by mechanical means (e.g. a vent). Ammonia (NH3) in the water is converted to Nitrites (NO2) by biological means. Specifcially, ammonia is neutralized by denitrifying bacteria called 'nitrosomas'. Colonies of nitrosoma bacteria is what helps manage and control a waterborne ammonia problem. Not a hole in your livewell lid.

IMO, it is a stretch to claim that this vent gets rid of the waterborne ammonia. The product does absolutely nothing to reduce the ammonia in the water.

I saw a video of a BASS pro explaining that the vent gets rid of the bad gasses inside the live well. He also said that bubbles floating on top of the water inside the livewell are in indication of bad gasses inside of the livewell compartment. Then he opens his live well lid and shows no floating bubbles and says, " See, this thing works! I have no floating bubbles in my tank!". Misinformed belief? Misguided optimism? Paid for advertisement? It doesn't really matter. IMO, this is BS and here's the main reason for the unpopped bubbles accumulating in your livewell.

Unpopped bubbles in a livewell are caused by a dirty film on top of the water. ....not because of an airtight or nearly airtight livewell container. This dirty film creates surface tension, as you can see from the trapped surface bubbles that never popped. That dirty film is a buildup of proteins and other waste particles in the water. Simply stated, it's water pollution. Unpopped bubbles is a sign that you have a water quality issue.

Once again, periodic water changes will physically reduce the amounts of bad things in the water (i.e. ammonia, proteins, waste matter, scales, etc.). I spoke of unpopped bubbles in the original post. If you're seeing unpopped, milky translucent dirty bubbles gathering on the surface inside your livewell or bait bucket, that is basically a cesspool building up there. Icky thought, but your bait and your fish are basking in a closed system cesspool when you never change the water out. The dirty unpopped bubbles are a visible symptom of your declining water quality.

Simple periodic partial water changes and prompt removal of dead/dying critters will effectively manage your water quality issues. Water changes physically removes....ammonia, proteins, nitrites, nitrates, organic waste, scales, etc.

Good find. Thanks for bringing this to our attention!


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## Fish (May 22, 2004)

Cant' wait to try this out. Any recommendations on water circulating timer? I have a RULE 800 circulating pump.


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## texasislandboy (Apr 28, 2012)

I install alot of pro air systems on boats. Been wanting to install a oxygenatior but going to test it on my boat this summer before I offer it to anyone else.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

I like the Flow Rite timer setup. Have used it on 5 different boat livewell systems.


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## Salty Dog (Jan 29, 2005)

Constantly changing out the water in your livewell is great and good until you run through some freshwater on the way to your fishing location and kill the whole livewell full of shrimp. I have had several boats that would pick up water as I ran and circulate it into the livewell with an overflow for the water to flow out of. I can't tell you how many times I took off with good bait and forgot to close off the intake side, ran through fresh water in the ICW or crossing the river and when I got to my first spot every last shrimp was dead. 

I also have had issues in the heat of the summer with hot surface water. Hot water doesn't hold oxygen as well as cooler water. I do better in the middle of summer to do a few water changes and keep it cooled down a little. Sometimes you have to balance out the worst of the evils between hot water, fresh water and ammonia build up.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

Salty Dog said:


> Constantly changing out the water in your livewell is great and good until you run through some freshwater on the way to your fishing location and kill the whole livewell full of shrimp. I have had several boats that would pick up water as I ran and circulate it into the livewell with an overflow for the water to flow out of. I can't tell you how many times I took off with good bait and forgot to close off the intake side, ran through fresh water in the ICW or crossing the river and when I got to my first spot every last shrimp was dead.
> 
> I also have had issues in the heat of the summer with hot surface water. Hot water doesn't hold oxygen as well as cooler water. I do better in the middle of summer to do a few water changes and keep it cooled down a little. Sometimes you have to balance out the worst of the evils between hot water, fresh water and ammonia build up.


Thanks for sharing SD. These real life experiences are good for all of us to learn from.


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## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

You donâ€™t change water on your bait if youâ€™re fishing down south around Baffin. Buy bait close to the channels at normal 40 pot salinity and flip some 80-90 ppt salinity water in your livewell and youâ€™ll have a box full of floaters in an hour or two. 

I keep croakers alive in my livewell up to 3 days only changing the water a few times throughout. If I leave my boat parked at the cabin Iâ€™m not going to run a pump all night. Iâ€™ve used oxygen systems in combination with keep alive ammonia treatments for over 10 years and they work better than anything.


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

Kyle 1974 said:


> You donâ€™t change water on your bait if youâ€™re fishing down south around Baffin. Buy bait close to the channels at normal 40 pot salinity and flip some 80-90 ppt salinity water in your livewell and youâ€™ll have a box full of floaters in an hour or two.
> 
> I keep croakers alive in my livewell up to 3 days only changing the water a few times throughout. If I leave my boat parked at the cabin Iâ€™m not going to run a pump all night. Iâ€™ve used oxygen systems in combination with keep alive ammonia treatments for over 10 years and they work better than anything.


It is a fact that oxygen and oxygen systems are totally unnecessary and a waste of money if you do not have a low O2 problem in your livewell water in the summer.

The Old Timers I know all claim that every summer the hot livewell water does not have enough oxygen in it and the bait suffocates. A thousand gallons of more hot aerated environmental water will not fix a low O2 problem in any livewell or bait bucket no more than you can effectively cut 1â€ iron/steel with a torch using compressed air and acetylene.

It does seem logical that if the bait really needs more O2 in hot summer livewells that the best straight forward, easiest, effective and cheapest solution to this low O2 problem killing the bait in the livewell is to fix the low O2 mess once and for all forever and give the bait exactly what they really want and need most ---- all the oxygen they need. 

How do you really rule out or confirm a low O2 problem in any summer live wells as the livebait killer?


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## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

When you put 12-15 dozen croaker in a 25-30 gallon livewell, oxygen is definitely a problem. 

Shrimp are easy to keep alive. Keep the water cool, and give them Some netting to hold On to inside the livewell and theyâ€™ll last 2-3 days pretty easily with a high quality bubbler like the pro air systems.

The other thing I have in my boats is a diffuser that I jam into the output side of the recirculator tube. That kills the strong jet of water coming out that slings the bait around but still puts the air into the livewell. Basically itâ€™s a piece of 1/2â€ PVC pipe with a **** load of small holes drilled
Into it.


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## hastic1 (Jul 14, 2010)

*Recirculating System*

After a lot of frustration trying to keep bait alive, went to a recirculating system and have not had any problems keeping any type of bait alive.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

JJohnson34 said:


> It is a fact that oxygen and oxygen systems are totally unnecessary and a waste of money if you do not have a low O2 problem in your livewell water in the summer.


Another fact is that ammonia is a lethal to aquatic creatures. High levels of ammonia overcomes O2 as it impairs the lungs ability to process the O2. Impair the ability to breathe, and the purest most expensive O2 in the world will not help. Wishful thinking at best.



JJohnson34 said:


> The Old Timers I know all claim that every summer the hot livewell water does not have enough oxygen in it and the bait suffocates. A thousand gallons of more hot aerated environmental water will not fix a low O2 problem in any livewell or bait bucket no more than you can effectively cut 1â€ iron/steel with a torch using compressed air and acetylene.


100% true that warmer water carries less oxygen then cooler water. Citing the use of 1000 gallons of hot aerated environmental water is odd. I and others have stated that it's a bad idea to do a water change in shallow warm water. Do it in deeper water.

The compressed air vs acetylene for cutting iron/steel is a great example to use here. That wouldn't work so well. It's like handing an oxygen mask to a choking friend. You see him panting and gasping for air. You think he needs O2 so you hand him an O2 air mask. He perishes soon anyway. That didn't work so well either. Why? It was because he was choking. If you had solved his choking problem , he would have survived. The life saving solution was to stop the choking, not provide O2.



JJohnson34 said:


> It does seem logical that if the bait really needs more O2 in hot summer livewells that the best straight forward, easiest, effective and cheapest solution to this low O2 problem killing the bait in the livewell is to fix the low O2 mess once and for all forever and give the bait exactly what they really want and need most ---- all the oxygen they need.


Back to leading people down the O2 path. Then selling them on expensive oxygen tanks and systems to address those fears. Ignoring the buildup of toxic chemical in the water.



JJohnson34 said:


> How do you really rule out or confirm a low O2 problem in any summer live wells as the livebait killer?


Quite easy. Go buy yourself a 30 gallon aquarium. Fill it full of expensive saltwater fish immediately. Immediately. All at once. Don't let the fish store person sway you. He'll tell you that you're making an expensive mistake. Ignore him. You have O2!

Make sure to overload it too, like you would your livewell. Don't take the fish store's advice of 'X' number of inches of livestock per gallon. Fishermen don't heed that stuff. Buy several dozen fish from the store. All the same physical size and length as the bait you normally buy. Probably be about 10x what you pay for bait, but be confident, you have O2!

Then buy the marine aquarium testing kits. Measure the change for yourself, like all marine aquarium people do. Test for Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates on a frequent basis. In this high bioload example, you should test the water every 30 minutes and document the test results. Keep a journal. Also, don't change water. Behave just like you would as if this was your livewell.

During that time, pump all of the bubbles into the tank that you want.....pure O2 or just compressed air....your choice. Also, keep the tank out of the sun. Make it as nice as possible for your test subjects. Remember, it's a fact that warm water holds less O2.

Every 30 minutes, test and record all measurements. You will see the rise of ammonia first, then nitrites follow, and then nitrates. Also chart the rate of death in the tank as ammonia rises, because you will see fish die during this ammonia period.

You will see a direct correlation to the increase in stress and death as you chart the rise in ammonia. The clear glass aquarium will give you a front row seat. Measuring every 30 minutes will give you the data.

There is science behind this. There's no guessing. Marine biologists figured this stuff out about the nitrogen cycle, the effects of ammonia on aquatic creatures, etc, not me.


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## Jess2015 (Feb 1, 2019)

ddakota said:


> All excellent points and sums it up. Bad water is your enemy with any live bait. Doesnâ€™t matter how fancy your O2 system is, if youâ€™re pumping O2 into bad water, you still get dead bait.
> 
> I fish out of a 20â€™ GC without a built in livewell. I use the Engle 30 Quart Bait Cooler which gives me portability. I bought a higher quality stone for microbubbles. A pair of D Batteries last 2 trips of 8-10 hrs, easily.
> 
> ...


I used pogey saver and it's lights out.:cheers:


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

*Control/eliminate all that metabolic waste in the livewell quickly, easy and cheaply*



habanerojooz said:


> Another fact is that ammonia is a lethal to aquatic creatures... There is science behind this. There's no guessing.


*Control/eliminateall that metabolic waste in the livewell quickly, easy and cheaply in only 2minutesâ€¦ ainâ€™t nothing to it.*
For a 20 gallon livewell with 800 gph livewell pump - Turn that livewell pump *only*_ 2_ minutes to make a total livewell water exchange eliminating all of or most of that dissolved CO2, carbonic acid, acid pH, acidic water, nitrites, vomit, scales feces, urine, foam, and protein in the livewell. Then dip out the dead fish and shrimp. Run that noisy little pump *only*_ 3_ time a day (initial fill and (2) flushes) to control metabolic poisons and turn that water pump offâ€"total run time all day is only 6 minutes, saves battery juice and ***** stop all that pump noise and vibration scaring the prey away. Dig this: noise/vibration travels 3X further under water than in air.

I have found that good livewell water quality is really necessary for live fish transport success and that success is dependent on 2 water quality parameters in 60F â€" 95F hauling water 1. Controlling metabolic waste. 2. Providing minimal safe oxygenation â€" if you can keep both parameters within â€œthe safe limitsâ€ thatâ€™s all there is to transport water quality hauling baitfish and shrimp, keeping them healthy and happy all day or several days in any kind of bait box or livewell. The brand and price of the bait box makes little difference in regards to water quality. Of course freshwater fish will always do better with a little additional salt added to the water to help reduce the work of osmoregulation.


*Supplemental oxygen is only beneficial for live baiters that chose to transport in excess of 1 lb. of fish per 1 gallon of water safely. This applies to only 1 water quality parameter â€" DO Saturation. *How many bay/offshore live baiters or tournament fishermen really need to keep all those corakers/shrimp/redfish/specks/flounder/bassalive, maybe 10% + or -.

This is interesting: *Oxygenation of Livewellsto Improve Survival of Tournament-Caught Bass, *By Randy Myers and Jason Driscoll*, *InlandFisheries Division, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department https://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/didyouknow/inland/livewells.phtml

Did you know that 10-15 different bass boat manufactures currently install OEM livewell oxygensystems in their boats now and that all bait shops that sell shiners fill plastic transport bags with 75% pure 100% welding oxygen gas and 25% water and shiners?

*Pure Oxygen and Live Fish Transport, *by William A. Wurts, Ph.D. State specialist for aquaculture Kentucky State University Cooperative Extension Program http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Pure-Oxygen-and-Live-Fish-Transport.pdf Dr. Wurts is a real fish doctor, a fish physiologist, well known world-wide, well published and often cited in many other scientific fishery publications. He doesnâ€™t do bait camp bro-science.

I actually believe (and like to read ) the published fishery science written by the fishery experts available to the public and other researchers about how TP&WD Marine and Inland Fisheries and other States and Federal Fishery Agencies as well as private fish hatcheries address water quality for live fish hauls... especially the hauling water quality standards/parameters they require, use and practice every day, all day; the research, the reasons how and why they are so successful (<1% transport/3 day post release mortality) and the equipment and chemical supplements they use in their live haul transport water that insure excellent hauling water quality as compared to how the average Galveston Bay live baiter defines livefish transport success.

Managing water quality/stocking density in a small home aquarium/Audubon Aquarium vs. EPA Environmental water quality standards and steady state conditions compared to catching/hauling/transporting live wild fish in the summer in a small livewell is very different as you may or may not know.

Donâ€™t feel bad hab, like you, thought it was all the same thing too for years until made an effort to learn the difference, the professional live haul water quality standards and by many trials, failures, dead and dying croakers in my livewellâ€¦but I really do like to overstock my livewell with those 3â€ â€" 5â€ croakersâ€¦ 3.0 â€"3.5 lbs. or so of croakers per 1 gallon of livewell water in the summer when the fishing is good in Galveston Bay and the N. jetties.

So many different ways, so many definitions, fishermen's old and new opinions of what successful live transport means to different fishermenâ€¦ interesting views and opinions and the current hard science hauling live fish. The tournament catch and live release fads...international live fish hauls world-wide, how they do that with no mortality.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

I'm 100% okay with those who sell high dollar oxygen tanks, regulators, etc to fishermen. I don't feel bad at all. That other thread is for people who want to sell those systems and build those systems. Those systems are bought by many people. They add value to a boat because people like them. I left that thread so people can talk to each other about those systems. I started this thread for those who would like an alternative approach that works and is based on biology and science. It's also easily performed with no extra cost. 

This thread is about keeping bait alive in a livewell without the use of bubbles...which means keeping them alive without an O2 system....and using natural means based on what you already have and a little manual effort.

If the noise of a livewell pump was the reason for not doing a water change, that is not enough for me. Stereos, outboard motors, people, boats, etc. There are way more noises and distractions going on all day in the bay than a livewell water pump. Plus, the benefits far outweigh any negative reason for running a livewell water pump. The issue is ammonia buildup. What's at stake is your investment in bait and your plans for the day based on that investment. If you're worried that your livewell water pump will scare fish, then do your water change in a different area. Either way, just do it.

My method is to pull the livewell plug, let the water drain out of the bottom, carrying bad stuff out. No noise, no battery. Plug it back up after ~40% is removed....more if the water is really dirty and filthy. Takes about a 90 seconds or less. Turn on the livewell pump to replenish the water I just let out. This also takes only a minute or two. Then my livewell creatures are happy and calm for another few hours. I never personally advocated running a powered livewell water pump for any amount of time beyond what it takes to replenish the removed water.

3-4 water changes a day....3-4 times the livewell pump gets turned on to pump in fresh new water....only a short time each time. Not much effort, or battery, or noise. On the water at daybreak, change the water around 8am, 10am, and 1pm. Do another change if you still have a lot of bait, you're fishing longer in the afternoon, water is hot, etc. Keep an eye on the critters everytime you open the lid. Remove dead and dying critters immediately. Pay attention to the critters and notice the signs of ammonia poisoning. 

Once again, I don't run air tanks or battery air pumps in my boat livewell. I took out my O2 tank and plugged the hose to the bubbler. My alternative method is entirely bubble free and natural.

The concepts of the nitrogen cycle, ammonia's effect on aquatic creatures, is the same whether it occur in a 5 gallon bait bucket, your boat livewell, a commercial bait hauling operation, or the 5,000,000 gallon Shedd Aquarium system in Chicago.

Another real life example. Look at the offshore bluewater fishermen. They overstock their livewells with cast nets full of bait. Those livewells, although much larger, have substantial bioloads in them. How do they work? They're designed to have constant circulation of the outside water through the tanks. This prevents waste material and ammonia from building up in the system....it is an open system. In this case, their water pumps are running 100% of the time. 

This process of continuous water replenishment manages the ammonia problem and any dissolved oxygen issues. But offshore guys don't deal with freshwater runoff, so this continuous flow, open system method can pose risk to inshore bay fishermen. Us inshore bay fishermen can achieve similar results with the manual approach discussed in this thread. We choose when and where we do our water change and replenishment. Water replenishment is periodic. Water replenishment pumps are only turned on to run until water is replenished. Then the water pump is turned off.

A bait bucket is a closed system. Your livewell is a closed system. It quickly becomes a cesspool of waste and lethal ammonia. No amount of bubbles, pure O2, etc will save them if that condition is not managed. A person is just fooling themselves if they ignore this cesspool fact.

I like this back and forth conversation. It is good for everybody who reads it.

Keep bringing this stuff forward and post it here for discussion. Or, post it in the other thread for support and acceptance.


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

*All good points*

About that the N2 Cycle, ran across this.

*The Nitrogen Cycle - Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate* https://www.arkansasstripers.com/nitrogen-cycle.htm _The most common causes of ammonia are overfeeding, overcrowding, inadequate filtration and/or improper maintenance._

To start a nitrification cycle in a bait holding tank *the tank should be lightly populated with bait.* Fish digestion, fish respiration, and the decomposition of uneaten food *begin to produce ammonia.*

**This process of continuous water replenishment manages the ammonia problem and any dissolved oxygen issues. 

In your opinion, what is the optimum dissolved oxygen saturation TP&WD requires for all live fish transports whether the livewell contains 1 fish or 1,000 fish? 45% DO Sat, 75%, 100%... how much?

Does anyone here know anything about this?


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

JJohnson34 said:


> About that the N2 Cycle, ran across this.
> 
> *The Nitrogen Cycle - Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate* https://www.arkansasstripers.com/nitrogen-cycle.htm _The most common causes of ammonia are overfeeding, overcrowding, inadequate filtration and/or improper maintenance._
> 
> ...


As a baseline reference for a starting point, I Googled "what is the dissolved oxygen level in sea water" and got.... 9.03 mg/L.

The first link in that google search also provided an article with a good overview of DO and much more. This link may begin to answer your DO question or point you in the right direction. It provides DO requirements info for both freshwater and saltwater species.

https://www.fondriest.com/environmental-measurements/parameters/water-quality/dissolved-oxygen/

I noticed this link has an interesting paragraph on too much DO. This is something that I was unaware of....see the paragraph 'Gas Bubble Disease'.

I also googled, "dissolved oxygen and fish transport" and got several interesting papers and articles. The first link in that search result was interesting.

http://www.fao.org/3/af000e/AF000E02.htm

Good luck in your research.


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

habanerojooz said:


> As a baseline reference for a starting point, I Googled "what is the dissolved oxygen level in sea water" and got.... 9.03 mg/L.
> 
> The first link in that google search also provided an article with a good overview of DO and much more. This link may begin to answer your DO question or point you in the right direction. It provides DO requirements info for both freshwater and saltwater species.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all these references hab, very informative, applicable to your thread. I read it all. 

I Googled the same thing you did, "what is the dissolved oxygen level in sea water" and there  was the answer to the DO saturation I ask, a direct correlation, *â€œ**the optimum dissolved oxygen saturation TP&WD requires for all live fish transports whether the livewell contains 1 fish or 1,000 fish IS 100% DO Saturation.â€*

**Thus the amount of dissolved oxygen at 100% saturation at sea level at 20Â° C [68 F] s 9.03 mg/L Â¹â°.The equation shows that water will remain at 100% air saturation at equilibrium.â€ *

*As oxygen in [air] the atmosphere is about 20.3%, the partial pressure of oxygen at sea level (1 atm) is 0.203 atm. *

If 100% DO Saturation is considered as the steady state normal as well as â€œsafeâ€ in the marine environment, _surely that same 100% DO Saturation holds true for DO Saturation is livewell/bait tank water regardless of the stocking density; 1 fish, 500 fish or 1000 fish in the tank. Right of no?_ 

More fish in the ocean or livewell will always require more dissolved oxygen, less fish require less oxygen. Dissolved oxygen is the limiting factor for stocking density whether in the ocean or a small 20-100 gallon livewell. 

The livewell environment is not a steady state environment like the oceans. The fish stress level in a small 20-100 gallon over crowded livewell is also far more profound than stress levels found in steady state ocean environments too.

The hypoxia problem begins when the DO Saturation falls below 100% Saturation and progressively gets worse the lower the DO saturation falls below 100%.

OK, this makes it crystal clear that the *DO Saturation that is considered safe as well as normal is 100% DO saturationâ€ *in the natural steady state environment in the marine world. The magic number is 100% DO Saturation and that number is controlled absolutely by Mother Nature, ambient air and oxygen producing marine flora. We currently see serious low oxygen (hypoxic) zones in many locations world-wide the closest to us being the hypoxic zone in the Mississippi River delta of the Gulf of Mexico. This is a man-made hypoxia problem whereas Mother Nature has lost control of the environment.
I
tâ€™s easy to understand now why Mother Nature (ambient air, livewell water exchanges, water pumpsâ€¦ all that stuff) cannot maintain 100% DO Saturation in small overstocked livewells/bait tanks, compared to the steady state ocean environment with exception to the â€œhypoxic zones.â€ 
Yes, g*** bubble disease is caused by gas supersaturation, nitrogen (ambient air) or oxygen. 

I noticed this link has an interesting paragraph about too much DO. This is something that I was unaware of....see the paragraph 'Gas Bubble Disease'. https://www.fondriest.com/environmen...solved-oxygen/

*Supersaturation caused by rapid aeration* [ambient air] is often seen beside hydro-power dams and large water falls in the natural environments.


Rapid temperature changes can also create *DO [Saturation] readings greater than 100%*.

*About Gas Bubble Disease*http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Gas_Bubble_Disease

â€¦is often thought to be the result of oversaturation of oxygen in the water. *But it usually the result of **nitrogen** gas supersaturating the aquarium tank water. [aerated livewells, bait tanks]*

Dissolved gas supersaturation occurs when the total pressure of gases dissolved in water is higher than the ambient atmospheric pressure. In aquariums [livewells and bait tanks], *causes include leaks in pumps or valve systems that can suck air under pressure *or sudden temperature gradients.[acute changes in water temperature, adding ice to livewell water acutely lowering water temperature]

We often see this with livewell and bait â€œwaterâ€ pumps that incorporate air venturi tubes designed to entrain ambient air into the inlet side of a Rule water pumpâ€¦ Live baiters and tournament fishermen do this with aeration devices like the popular *KeepAlive Oxygen Infusor*
http://www.captmacks.com/store/product/keepalive-oxygen-infusor/ and other homemade water pump modifications like this.

TP&WD never uses air entrainment air venture/water pump equipment like this in their hauling tanks because this stuff causes gass bubble disease. 

They do use 100% oxygen gas with bubblers exclusively to haul live fish, *but* they always regulates and maintains the DO saturation between 100% DO Saturation to 120% DO Saturation for many hours of live hauls. They do specifically guard against supersaturating their haul water with ambient air, *specifically Nitrogen gas supersaturation, which is the primary cause of gass bubble disease.*

Interesting Point about the CO2 production: Fish transported in tanks are exposed to gradually increasing concentrations of carbon dioxide during captivity. Unless aeration is adequate, CO2 levels may exceed 20â€"30 mg 1-1, *in general, for each milliliter of oxygen a fish consumes, it produces approximately 0.9 milliliters of CO2. *

That is basically a 1:1 ratio of O2 consumption to CO2 production. CO2 is highly soluble in water producing carbonic acid. Carbonic acid decreases (acidifies) livewell water lowering the pH. The more acid the water becomes the more toxic the ammonia concentration becomesâ€¦ and water quality deteriorates.

Livewell water exchanges keeps all this within the safe range... water exchange is important in proportion to stocking density... more bait fish requires more water exchanges.

Thanks for all the water quality references. Mother Nature's water quality management in ocean water is so different than a fisherman trying to manage minimal safe water quality in a 20 gallon livewell all day.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

JJohnson34 said:


> Thanks for all these references hab, very informative, applicable to your thread. I read it all.
> 
> I Googled the same thing you did, "what is the dissolved oxygen level in sea water" and there  was the answer to the DO saturation I ask, a direct correlation, *â€œ**the optimum dissolved oxygen saturation TP&WD requires for all live fish transports whether the livewell contains 1 fish or 1,000 fish IS 100% DO Saturation.â€*
> 
> ...


This has been an interesting dialog JJohnson.

Instead of talking about bait camp systems or commercial transportation of very large quantities of livestock, Iâ€™m bringing this back to our boats and what we do as fishermen with our livewell systems and bait.

Many people have read what Iâ€™ve posted. I would have expected more dialog from others as this goes against what people have been trained to believe. There hasnâ€™t been much push back but that doesnâ€™t mean there arenâ€™t any doubters out there.

Iâ€™m done with the talk and most of you probably are too. Itâ€™s time for me to prove it. Iâ€™m bringing this thread to closure with a challenge.

*I challenge anyone with a fancy O2 setup....that my manual method will EQUAL OR EXCEED your O2 systemâ€™s ability to keep bait alive and fresh during a full day on the water.*

*Prize: $200 cash + pay for other personâ€™s bait*

I suggest that the O2 person solicit sponsorship from an O2 system vendor, O2 regulator vendor, micro bubbler vendor, etc. Itâ€™s publicity for them and you may not have to risk any of your money. Those fabulous O2 systems that they sold to you should crush my low tech, low cost, manual method. From their vantage point, it should seem like a slam dunk and great publicity. I think that their confidence should be very high. Iâ€™m sure many of them have read this thread by now.

*If I win, I will donate all of my winnings to the Make-a-Wish Foundation. You and your sponsors can do whatever you want with the winnings.*

I will open a new thread and post the full rules of the challenge if I get any takers. Just to make things interesting, this challenge will occur in August, when the water is the warmest. This should put me at a further disadvantage because everyone knows that warm water holds less oxygen and I will be doing water changes with that warm summer water.

Iâ€™ll take on a maximum of three (3) challengers at one time. Ideally, they will all have different O2 vendor components and setups so that the O2 side has good representation.

Specific rules of my challenge will follow in a new thread if I get any challengers. A challenger can back out if they donâ€™t accept the rules after Iâ€™ve posted them.

In summary though, you O2 challengers cannot do any water changes. This challenge is a manual water change method (no bubbles or additives) against an O2 System (no water changes or additives). I will use a cheap battery powered bubbler while enroute from the bait camp and the boat ramp. Once I get to the water and dump my bait in the livewell, I will stop using the battery operated bubbler.

You are free to use the purest highest quality O2 and the best O2 system components that you can buy, the best microbubbler, etc. You can also use high tech instruments to measure the DO and you can make any O2 regulator flow adjustment that you want.

Also, this challenge will occur in a public area so people can witness the challenge. The specific rules will follow.

*Who wants to test their O2 system investment against me and my manual method and win some money?*


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## barronj (Sep 30, 2013)

riopga said:


> I read an article that said the old salts put a burlap bag in their livewell to give the shrimp something to hang on to so that they didn't get beat up washing around the tank. Do you think it would make a difference?





ddakota said:


> Iâ€™ve got plastic window screen attached to the 4 walls of my bait cooler with Velcro strips. Gives the shrimp something to hang onto and they definitely use it.


It's not so much that they get beat up washing around, the sack/netting gives them something to hang on to and rest, or so I've read.


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

habanerojooz said:


> This has been an interesting dialog JJohnson.
> 
> Instead of talking about bait camp systems or commercial transportation of very large quantities of livestock, Iâ€™m bringing this back to our boats and what we do as fishermen with our livewell systems and bait.
> 
> ...


Hab, you are definitelya shaker and a mover on the 2Coolâ€¦ great controversial thread with excellent references attached.

OMG! - Talk about yanking local live bait fishermenâ€™s or C&R redfish tournament fishermanâ€™s pants down in public and exposing the specimen, would you really have the audacity to do that with a challenge like this?

*Iâ€™m really anxious to see your rules for your challenge contest, please do post your rules in detail in a new thread along with the specific criteria required for winning the contest in detail. And also post the dollar prize for the contest winnersâ€¦. Letâ€™s see how many local fishermen and how many of the companies really believe in there O2 rigs and will play.*

That is such an interesting summer live bait challenge. A silent response/no response will be absolutely defining. What does that tell you if there is not a peep from any O2 rig company owners or salesmen @ Pro-O2, Boyd, Salty Air O2, KeepALiveâ€¦ nor from all the fishing guides, fishermen that run these O2 rigs all day every summer. They all should be right on top of your challenge. If no one take the challenge, well you win automatically, eh? There is no contest nor challengers to your livewell concepts.

This contest should be quick, easy money for the winner. 

Even though none of these companies and people promoting all these different O2 systems are paid sponsors on 2Cool, they all do promote their product on this forum risk free at no additional charge and have for many years as well as customers who have purchased these O2 rigs and offer so many free product testimonials on 2Cool.

If no one takes your challenge â€" your point is well made, solid as a rock and that pretty well sums up all the O2 rig advertisements and internet testimonials from that fishing guide that called himself the â€œTexxan.â€ Have not heard a peep out of him here lately, that speaks volumes too.

Are you really confident that you can/will win this (live bait croaker/shrimp) livewell oxygen vs. mechanical aeration contest in August?


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## reelthreat (Jul 11, 2006)

It is this easy... stressed croaker release ammonia, most people over oxygenate their bait, if that foam (people using O2 know it) starts forming something is wrong and it is usually to much O2. Change the water and turn the O3 down.

As for shrimp, they never need O2. A bubbler is enough.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

JJohnson34 said:


> Hab, you are definitelya shaker and a mover on the 2Coolâ€¦ great controversial thread with excellent references attached.
> 
> OMG! - Talk about yanking local live bait fishermenâ€™s or C&R redfish tournament fishermanâ€™s pants down in public and exposing the specimen, would you really have the audacity to do that with a challenge like this?
> 
> ...


Appreciate the comments JJ. I wasn't wanting this attention or the reputation. I hesitated for a very long time before I finally decided to create this thread.

I want each challenger to be highly confident. If they are confident, why would they care how I feel?

To answer your last question directly, yes, I am that confident. But truthfully, there are no guarantees.

I might also be a confused idiot savant and everyone will see me go down. I can almost hear people clapping now. :smile:

I'm doing this to educate the weekend bait fishermen, the C&R redfish tournament fishermen, and the professional guides. They now have knowledge that will help them. The tournament fishermen can increase their chances of weighing and releasing live redfish. The guides can maximize their bait investment by curbing the mortality rate of their livewell creatures and having their bait survive the day, and possibly have leftovers for the next trip. The weekend bait fishermen will have lively bait all day and very little (if any) livewell bait mortality. All very real, tangible benefits.

Therefore, I don't view this a free willy exposure moment for those people. This is a learning opportunity for them. Possibly an 'ah ha!' revelation.

No, I won't claim victory if I get no challengers. I'll let others draw their own conclusions. There's a lot of intelligent people on 2Cool. They will remember this thread every time big claims come out about O2, O2 tanks, microbubble diffusers, fancy regulators, livewell vents, etc.

JJohnson, I said I'd post the rules if I got any takers. I've given up enough of my time to post this stuff and I will be donating a lot of my time to perform this challenge. I don't want tire kickers or misdirection.

I also do not want to open a new thread on this unless there are challengers.

On the subject of how much a challenger could win, a challenger is only challenging me 1-on-1. They are not challenging other challengers. Thus, a challenger can only win $200 from me + I pay for their bait. Although I could beat all 3 and win from all three and get my bait paid for by all of them, I could also lose to all 3 and pay for their bait. Losing to all three would set me back about ~$700-$750 in total. I am taking on more risk than any single challenger. That should be obvious. It also should be obvious that since I'm giving my winnings to charity, that I'm not in this for the money.

I'll require full transparency on the O2 rigs, even if the vendors are not backing the challengers. The challenger must list all of the O2 rig components and their respective vendors. This information will be shared with the challenge viewers. They may find this interesting as many of them may be owners and users of those same O2 rig products.

If you're my first challenger JJ, I'll open a new thread and post the rules and we'll see if we can get two more challengers. Yes, you can back out of challenge if you do not like rules. Don't worry, the rules will be simple.


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

*OK, I'll try so let's dance...*



habanerojooz said:


> On the subject of how much a challenger could win, a challenger is only challenging me 1-on-1.
> 
> If you're my first challenger JJ, I'll open a new thread and post the rules and we'll see if we can get two more challengers. Yes, you can back out of challenge if you do not like rules. Don't worry, the rules will be simple.


hab, After some consideration, I would be interested to take you up and see just how my homemade O2 system will compare to your â€œAlternative-Approachâ€ livewell system for transporting bait croakers this coming summer.

Regarding your â€œContest,â€ since it looks like it has died on the forum. It looks to me like none of the local boys that sell their O2 rigs around Galveston Bay have much faith in the product they are selling nor do the fishermen that buy their stuff like that local fishing guide dude that calls himself the â€œTexxanâ€ that hasraved so about his O2 rig.

OK, Iâ€™m interested in your contest, show me your rules: Please do post your contest rules/conditions,what criteria/specifications/how will the winner be judged and the whole point of this contest like all fishing tournamentsâ€¦ *what shall we make the $ cash prizefor the winner since there will only be the 2 of us competing for the money? *

I have been looking at these O2 systems the local-yokels have been selling since last summer. Iâ€™m not impressed with the quality or the durability of what they are selling although the price is definitely cheap and cheap counts too. 

My interested is catching and transporting live 3â€ bait croakers 120 lbs. [15 gallons fish] â€"160 lbs. [20 gallons fish] with my 50 gallon homemade livewell summer in July/August I have looked at these O2 systems the locals around here are selling. and fish with them in the summer. I've talked with other fishermen who have bought and used these systems. The fishermen Iâ€™ve talked with have all specifically mentioned a consistent major problem with the aluminum regulators locals are all selling, especially when these aluminum regulators are used in marine environments. 


The problem is called *galvanic corrosion*. Itâ€™s that *********** corrosion that causes aluminum O2 regulators to malfunction and fail when you are really counting on dependability and that $125 of bait croakers catch the red-nose and suffocated in the livewell because that aluminum O2 regulator failed and ruined the fishing tripâ€¦ In my opinion, that really sucks all because of a cheap aluminum O2 regulator that corroded and failed because of salt exposure. The aluminum alloy was used in a marine environment and exposed to salty coastal air.

Last winter I searched for and found 2 adjustable O2 regulators that are actually real commercial grade oxygen regulators (not aluminum, click-style adjustable medical grade O2 regulators). 

These 2 commercial grade O2 regulators I found are made of non-alloy metals that are actually resistant to galvanic corrosion when used in marine environments and exposed ambient coastal salty air. They are dependable and non-disposable, but they do cost more than the aluminum alloy O2 regulators the locals sell. I plan to buy 1 of these regulators soon. I have the other components necessary to complete my homemade O2 system including a 40 cu. ft. O2 cylinder complete with a CGA 540 oxygen valve.


Just waiting to see your rules now and the $ prize... this will be interesting and profitable for 1 of us. And everyone might learn something new.


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## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

Pfft. A full day. Letâ€™s do a Friday afternoon in a garbage can in the back of the truck then Friday night in a hotel room, and Saturday on the boat. 

If you canâ€™t keep bait alive for a day in the water go sink your boat now.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

Good stuff JJohnson. I agree that many of the regulators are not built to withstand our coastal conditions. It sounds as if you have a product that solves that corrosion problem. That is great. Perhaps Kyle 1974 will join us as this challenge sounds like a cakewalk for him. There could be other O2 rig challengers but they're waiting to see the rules first. I'll take up to 3 challengers. The prize money will be the same as stated before.

It would be boring and brutal to anchor and sit in 1 spot all day in August. Let's make this a fun day. So instead frying in one spot, we're going to follow each other around and fish all day with lures only (Gulp allowed). We'll run around in our boats with bait in the livewell like we normally would, but we're not going to fish with it.

We'll split the day into 3rds, with each time slot focused on 1 single species....trout (am time), redfish (middle), flounder (end). 1 boat is the 'lead boat' that guides us all to our destination(s) for that species/time slot. The lead boat for each time slot/species will be determined by a random draw. Drift/trolling motor/anchor are acceptable. Wading allowed but other boats may fish as they choose. Boats must stay within fishing proximity of the lead boat for that time slot.

Lead boat can go to as many or as few destinations as they choose. Other boats must follow and remain near the lead boat. The lead boat can take location suggestions from the other boats. We'll track grand slam, largest species, # of keepers, etc. A boat can optionally volunteer to be the lead boat for 1 time slot. If we get no volunteers for the time slots, we'll predetermine the time slot's lead boat by random drawing.

2Cool volunteers will be sought to ride in each contestant's boat and serve as an independent field official for the contest. 1 field official per boat. Random drawing on day of contest to determine each field official's boat assignment. (Field officials are allowed/encouraged to fish too but must have valid license to fish and must bring their own equipment).

I have an initial draft of the rules completed and I'll be ready to post them very soon for comments and final tweaking. The rules document will follow an outline structure similar to what I've seen used in fishing tournaments.

*But before I post the rules draft, I'm requesting input from 2Cool:
*
1. The O2 rig challengers must have livewells with similar gallon capacity as mine. I have a 2012 Haynie HO. I'm not sure of the gallons in my rear live well, but I think it is approximately 45 gallons. Can anyone verify?

2. Croaker will be the challenge bait. I'm looking for input on how many dozen croaker are typically bought for a day's fishing...assume 2-3 people fishing. How many dozen do you normally buy?

3. How long (i.e. inches) are Croaker typically in August? How much do they typically cost per dozen in the Galveston/Texas City area? Which bait camps in those areas normally have good supplies of croaker in August?

4. Would any 2Coolers like to take part and serve as a Field Official? Your job will be to ensure that your boat follows the rules. During the day you can fish, you can live stream on social media, post live updates to 2Cool, or just enjoy the boat ride and an August summer day. It pays $0 but you get to ride around and fish with us!


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

8 dozen is a reasonable low average. 

Hillmans and Biyds are usually $8 to $10 a dozen.


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

*Need to see your rules to your contest hab*

hab, Iâ€™m still waiting to see your rules for your contest and especially the nutâ€¦ *how much $$$ the winner gets?* 


This contest is about knowing and understanding what the culprit is (what kills bait croakers in summer livewells). Your contest will demonstrate a what works to keep croakers alive in the dog days of August and what does not work.


This is a contest between your â€œeasy and free alternative solution to the expensive oxygen systemsâ€ vs. using supplemental oxygenwith pure oxygen injection. 


Contest location - Anywhere outside under any tree in any park or outside deck of any local beer joint. We really donâ€™t need to run around the bay in a boat all day with observers monitoring. We each bring 5 gallons of fresh bait tank exchange water for the 12 hour event. All water comes from Boydâ€™s.


How about this: Thursday August 15, 2019 - contest last 12 hours â€" 120 Boydâ€™s live bait croakers (10 dozen) in the 5 gallon bucket by 7 AM â€" contest end @ 7 PM, livewell is a 5 gallon plastic bucket, 5 gallons water + additional 5 gallons of exchange water for 12hr. period, no bait saver chemicals, no ice, no hypothermia.




Bait tank waterDO Saturation, water temperature and salinity shall be serial tested with a DO meter and recorded. The bait tank water shall be tested and recorded before the bait in introduced into the 5 gallon bucket of water @ Boyd's, then tested every 30 minutes throughout the 12 hour period. The number of dead croakers shall be counted and recorded every hour.


The Winner has the most live croakers (live is gill plates moving, functional movementâ€¦ end of life gasping reflex is a dead fish) @ end of 12 hour captivity - 7 PM.


The Prize is $800 USD cash, winner talks all, looser shall also pay for winners 120 croakers. 


Losers get to keep all the contest croakers (live and dead) and go fishing the next day, Friday August 16, 2019. 


The only little trick to that is: How many of those croakers can you keep alive over-night and the next day?

Again, please post your suggestions for your contest habâ€¦ this could be educational for all 2Coolers that are live baiters having summer bait problems, looking for solutions that work. Definitely will be fun and profitable for the winner. Like winning a redfish or speckled trout tournament with a lot less work but easier. Instead of keeping tournament reds or specks alive all day this is just keeping little bait croakers alive all day.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

5 gallons for exchange?

That is hardly the same thing as an 800 GPH livewell pump on a timer putting one minute on and one minute off of fresh water exchange.

This was going to be something cool.....

Hab seems to want to put on a comparison competition under how you would care for bait on any normal day.

JJ wants to sit under a tree in a park with a five gallon bucket? That sure aint how i use my bait and bait care systems.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

JJohnson34 said:


> hab, Iâ€™m still waiting to see your rules for your contest and especially the nutâ€¦ *how much $$$ the winner gets?*
> 
> 
> This contest is about knowing and understanding what the culprit is (what kills bait croakers in summer livewells). Your contest will demonstrate a what works to keep croakers alive in the dog days of August and what does not work.
> ...


JJ I'm close to publishing the rules of the challenge. I'd like to make the rules simple but in today's world, one must cover all bases to prevent misunderstandings. And it's a fact, there are people out there that will take this as an opportunity to cry foul and take people to court. Slander, libel, unfairness, reputation tarnished, business impacted, etc. all kinds of ways to make this seemingly simple challenge into more that we all bargained for. There's also the inclination for some people to push the envelope on everything and possibly cheat. I'm not accusing you of any of this, but I'm also not naive enough rely only on trust and blind faith.

In an attempt to develop a set of rules that covered the bases, I modeled the Alternative Challenge rule format using a set of redfish tournament rules that I found. I updated the words to fit this challenge where appropriate and inserted bits that we needed.

Another challenge in a bait bucket on land? I'm going to refer to that as Challenge #2. I'm happy to return back and discuss Challenge #2 once this first challenge is over.

Date of August 15th? A Thursday? People work for a living and that may be difficult. I'll get back with a range of dates that we can work out together and along with any other additional challengers.

Winner criteria, amount won, number of croakers, where we buy croakers, time we meet, etc. Yes, all of that and more will be covered in the rules. You're on the right track when it comes to counting the croakers at the end of the challenge. We will be required to keep and include ALL croakers in the count, both dead and alive, for audit purposes.

$200 initial challenge raised to $800? This feels like pot raise bet in Pot Limit Omaha. PLO happens to be my favorite form of poker! But that is a diversion and poker talk is not allowed. My point will be made after this first initial scenario. Therefore, I may step aside and let somebody else perform my procedures and take your action in Scenario #2. They might even be game enough to 'repot raise' your $800 bet! What would that come to....~$2,200+???..I always depend on the dealers to calculate pot bets for me. That would give the event watching railbirds something to get excited about.  But talk is cheap and I digress...

Loser getting to keep the other person's Croakers.....that's a great add and I'll include that in the rules.

Version 1 of the rules will be published later tomorrow and they will be open for a short period of time for comments and possible revisions. Once the rules are finalized, the option still stands for challengers to back out if they don't accept the rules. Obviously, if they commit to enter the challenge after the final rules are published, then they've accepted the rules.

I'm mimicking what the majority of the O2 fishermen do each weekend...which is....overload the live well, turn on the O2, and hope. The majority of the O2 rig fishermen have never heard of my water change procedures and my focus on ammonia and water quality. They didn't hear of these things in detail until I published them. Thus, O2 challengers cannot utilize any of my techniques during the challenge. *O2 Rig challengers cannot use any of my alternative approach techniques in their live wells and I cannot use an O2 rig in my live well. This point is the fundamental basis of this challenge.*

I offered the running around to break up the monotony. Mid August should be in the 100's, a real killer in the sun with no shade. Even more so if sitting on the water for long periods of time without moving. This is not an exercise in human survival. I'll revise the format of the day and it can be discussed again.

Measurements? Absolutely! That has always been part of my plan. Since you're focused on DO, I ask that you supply the DO measurement tool. I'm working on trying to get test kits for measuring ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and PH. I'll also try to find a digital thermometer for the water temperature. We'll measure each live well at the start and we'll obtain and record new measurement readings on a published schedule throughout the day. This empirical data along with the mortality count each period will be very useful to all viewers of this challenge. The follower should be able to build a times series chart in Excel to visualize the progress throughout the challenge day.


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## polecat (Jan 21, 2005)

Riddle me this, we can put and carry 20 dozen croaker in a livewell all day with no loss with O2 an microbubbler closed system with Pogey saver. If that O2 supply stops for 10 minutes all croaker will be dead. Dont tell me O2 doesnt work. If I that amount of croaker in a 20 gallon livewell and constantly change water without O2 supply they will all die in an hour. We tried that method.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

You sound perfect and confident for Habs challenge. Step right up.


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## polecat (Jan 21, 2005)

I might ad that we are fishing baffin, where using the high salinity water kills the croaker. We tried the water exchange over there. we ended up with dead croaker, quit changing water and used pogey saver, no croaker loss


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

polecat said:


> I might ad that we are fishing baffin, where using the high salinity water kills the croaker. We tried the water exchange over there. we ended up with dead croaker, quit changing water and used pogey saver, no croaker loss


Thanks for sharing polecat. You're contributing to the learning here.

There are a couple of ways to manage and control ammonia.
- Water changes
- Additives
- Naturally

There aren't enough hours in a fishing day to rely on ammonia naturally going away. It takes several days to build up colonies of ammonia fighting bacteria. If you need to address the ammonia immediately, you perform one of the other options.

The reason the Pogey Saver additive works is because it contains elements that help you control and manage your ammonia. There are other commercially available products that purport to do the same thing, but they're marketed to the freshwater crowd. Without going into too much detail, just know that those products work by neutralizing the ammonia and making it harmless to the fish.

Water changes physically remove the bad stuff that causes the rise in ammonia, plus it removes waterborne ammonia itself. But when you're in a situation such as yours where water changes create issues, chemical additives are a good way to address the ammonia issue.

20 dozen is a very high bioload in a boat live well. I presume you're in a standard Texas boat with a 40ish gallon live well. That's ~1200" of livestock (240 * 5") in ~35 gallons of water (almost full live well). 240 juvenile critters constantly producing waste like juveniles or babies do. Ammonia should reach lethal levels very quickly in those conditions.

With that level of bioload, have you ever used only O2 and no Pogey Saver? 
1. How many croakers died or what percentage of loss did you experience in the live well with only O2, and no additive? 
2. How long did it take before you started noticing issues in the live well?


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

polecat said:


> I might ad that we are fishing baffin, where using the high salinity water kills the croaker. We tried the water exchange over there. we ended up with dead croaker, quit changing water and used pogey saver, no croaker loss


High salinity water kills croaker? Things I'm unaware of as I don't live or fish down there. Perhaps you or some other Baffin fisherman can chime in on Baffin high salinity and share their experience and address the following questions:

1. Is it possible to wade fish with a bucket of croakers in Baffin? If this is possible, how long can one expect a bucket of croakers to last before they're all dead?

2. If you only drift fish with croakers in Baffin because of the high salinity wade issue, how long does a live croaker survive on the hook in that Baffin water before it dies? (assume you're drifting in an area where the fish aren't biting)


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## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

Yes. It will kill them over a couple hours. On day trips I very rarely add any water to the livewell. If I wade with croakers I just take a dozen to 18 or so at a time. Baffin water can be 2 times higher salinity than normal and croaker just donâ€™t handle that very well.


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

*Where are those rules hab,I donâ€™t see them here today? *


hab, is your conteststill viable or has it gone away now; I donâ€™t see any rules here today? 


Need to see those rules, especially the prize $ and the anti before considering to burn a whole day to play. I donâ€™t know about other potential players, but I really need to see if the prize $$ is actually worth the cost, time and effort just like all/any redfish fishing tournaments.


I have heard of abnormally high salinity in Baffin Bay during normal seasonal dry periods. During these predictable dry periods in S Texas, do all those croakers that normally live in Baffin Bay either die or migrate if possible rendering that bay totally devoid of croakers and other saline sensitive creatures (oysters, clams, mussels, crabs, shrimp, fish, gators, snakes, turtles, etc.)? 


Either way, Ihad no idea that all the croakers either died or leave the bay if possible dependingon seasonal hyper-salinity bay conditions.


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## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

When we released all the baby flounder from the hatchery the biologist would try to match the salinity level gradually along with the temps.....

Perhaps if the water changes in high salinity waters happen gradually opposed to spiking ...... that could add some value

Btw- there is a cheap device that measures salinity used by those with salt aquariums


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

Muddskipper said:


> When we released all the baby flounder from the hatchery the biologist would try to match the salinity level gradually along with the temps.....
> 
> Perhaps if the water changes in high salinity waters happen gradually opposed to spiking ...... that could add some value
> 
> Btw- there is a cheap device that measures salinity used by those with salt aquariums


Excellent advice on the gradual acclimation.

Yes, I was going to show people what that cheap device is. Costs under $20. Dip it in the water and it gives you an instant reading on salinity/specific gravity. You do not have to taste the water to determine how salty it is.

Maybe do another thread on salinity and discuss.....what is too little or too much?...the differences in salinity levels between the beachfront and the back bays...the differences between Baffin and all of the other bays. Baffin is definitely unique. I ran across some interesting studies on Baffin's salinity, dissolved oxygen, algae blooms, fish kills, etc.


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## troutklr (Mar 2, 2012)

habanerojooz said:


> In the another thread, Livewell Oxygen System, I threw out there that the lack of oxygen was not the main issue that is killing your bait in the livewell. I also mentioned that there is a very easy and free alternative solution to the expensive oxygen systems.
> 
> Sgrem was kind enough to share his effective method for keeping bait alive in his livewell. First I'll share Sgrem's entire solution, then I'll break it down and explain some things and offer some suggestions:
> 
> ...


You make some good points and suggestions when discussing the factors that are killing bait fish in our bait tanks. But I wont be one of those that get your ideas and knowledge, or lack there of, forced on me. The information you provide on oxygen systems and bubble and how it all works is misleading, and half truth, and why you chose to leave out other facts will only be known by you. But it does need to be clarified and put out there for others to know and understand to be able to make their own educated decision and choose the route they want to take, not the one you want everyone to take. If I want to spend my money on an O2 system, that's my business and my choice, not yours. And it's an educated decision that has never not worked for me. Why do I have to stop doing something you believe doesnt work just because it's your belief? It does work

The BS you spilled about bubbles is half baked and sounds like you dont want to upset the fish with a bunch of bubbles. Oxygen in water is called diffused oxygen, DO. Anyone who takes a 2 minute lesson in physics knows that diffusion is the movement of a gas from an area of lower concentration to an area of higher concentration. You stated oxygen exchange occurs at the surface of water...correct. But you're forgetting that all that stupid tiny bubbles are creating "surface" throughout the water. Actually I think I've seen you say that before but you probably didnt realize you were saying it, bubbles increase the surface area. They do this under water as well. Water has a certain amount of oxygen it can carry, just like blood does, and I'll elaborate on that more in a minute. This amount it can hold is dependent on a lot of things. When you fill a bait tank full of bait, they consume oxygen and reduce carbon dioxide. Let's go back to the stupid bubble thing, the little bubbles that increased the surface area of the water throughout the water. What are those stupid little bubbles filled with? 100% oxygen from my over priced oxygen system. So at 100%, I believe that would make the concentration of the air bubble higher than what the water would have in it. Now let's add in all the oxygen the bait are consuming, that makes the concentration in the water even lower. What is diffusion? Its the movement of a gas from a higher concentration to an area of lower concentration, right? And what is the bubble? Its surface area? So what happens? Yup, the oxygen diffuses into the water from this bubble of surface area as it works it's way to the top and pop.

What else is that bubble, I mean surface area doing on its way to pop? Remember the definition of diffusion? What are fish creating? Carbon dioxide. What is the concentration of carbon dioxide in the water compared to the bubble, I mean surface area? Its higher. So according to the laws of physics, the carbon dioxide diffuses into this bubble and it floats up to pop.

Does that mean all the O2 that bubble carries diffuses into the water? Nope, only what the water can hold. But an oxygen system does help to ensure the water will be diffused with as much O2 as it can hold.

How do I know this works? Because I'm alive and breathing roughly 21% oxygen right now. I also know that if you were to draw a blood gas on me right now and run it, it would not be as high as it could possibly be, because I'm only breathing 21% oxygen. If what you say is right, that those stupid bubbles dont do anything but make a bubble, and that O2 does nothing, then why is it so widely used in the medical field? Because physics dont lie. You place me on 100% oxygen instead of 21%, you just filled my blood with as much oxygen molecules as it is capable of carrying, and a blood gas would prove that. Oxygen diffuses into blood the same way it does water. And "bubbles", aka surface area, can be created in my lungs with PEEP to assist in the diffusion.

If you're going to create a post to provide people with information to be able to make an informative decision on their own, dont leave out key facts to try to sway them to your beliefs. If you dont want an O2 system, then dont have one, I really dont care what you do. But my experience in the medical field and the hours of studying and research I've had to do and learn and memorize and practice over and over to be able to do my job tells me all I need to know about these stupid oxygen systems and how they work.

Maybe if you're ever in the hospital with a respiratory or hemorrhagic issue, you should ask them to withhold their stupid oxygen bubbles from you since they cant work and see how that works out for you.

Does this mean your system cant work? And not. You've proven it does work for you. But so does mine, it is possible for them to coexist. There are facts to back up both systems, you just keep leaving out the facts I felt needed to be said

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## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

Wow man!.... your really coming at him hard, especially when he is only sharing his knowledge/ opinion. *This is the Internet*.... and generally there are things that are used and some that are not....

I appreciate it when someone spends the time to write something up that long and share...


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## troutklr (Mar 2, 2012)

https://www.2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?p=23566389

When you constantly feel the need to reply to every oxygen thread started and vomit misleading information and call fishermen who do use oxygen systems with success ignorant, sooner or later you're asking for someone to check you.

Your method and system may very well work, theres no doubting that. But my ignorant system works too for many reasons and this ignorant fisherman will keep using the system

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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

He isnt insulting or disrespecting any fisherman or any system they use.

He is illustrating the lack of knowledge and the marketing of products that pander to that lack of knowledge.

The word ignorance means uninformed ..... lack of knowledge. 

The act of not accepting the knowledge and holding on to staying uniformed would be quite ignorant making for an ignorant fisherman....illustrated more recently.

An oxygen system cant be ignorant. Only the fisherman who uses or doesnt use. You can be well informed and still use your system. That is each individuals choice based on their experience and circumstances.

The information shared is to help the uniformed recieve all the information. There is nothing derogatory there that could be interpreted to be an insult by the uninformed. Simply information shared and choices available.

After all that some will choose ignorance.


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## troutklr (Mar 2, 2012)

sgrem said:


> He isnt insulting or disrespecting any fisherman or any system they use.
> 
> He is illustrating the lack of knowledge and the marketing of products that pander to that lack of knowledge.
> 
> ...


Ok, then from what he posts, he is ignorant to the use and viability of oxygen systems.

Again, nothing wrong with his method, what he says about it makes sense and it works. But he just needs to stick with that and informing everyone on that system rather than adding his 2 cents on O2 systems that is barely even half correct.

There are people that come here seeking information on oxygen systems, that's what they want to know about, and they looking for the correct information. He's doesnt give them that, he gives partial and misleading information to try and prove an O2 system cant work. But it can and it will, just as much as his method will.

Stick to your guns, dont try to use mine, you'll shoot yourself in the foot

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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

I believe most of those posts to inform are to give people an a much cheaper option to bait care. Some are misinformed that expensive and cumbersome oxygen systems are the only option to keeping $10 worth of bait alive for a days fishing. 

So he has shared a different....very effective....least cost option that will keep bait excellent in all but the most extreme conditions.

Highest cost option.
Least cost option.
Equal results.

Each fisherman can choose. We are all gear junkies and dont need a reason. Go for your choice. High five.

Some choose a $100k bay boat. Some choose a $1k jon boat. Equal results most days.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

Thanks for chiming in Troutklr.

I chose to no longer leave my comments in that other O2 thread because it was a thread for discussion and promotion of O2 systems. I didnâ€™t want to derail it with my point of view. I said I would open this independent thread to discuss an alternative method. Stop â€˜bombingâ€™ those O2 marketing and promotional threads as you say.

People can read both threads and choose for themselves. I agree the methods can coexist and I also stated that I support the sale and purchase of O2 equipment.

I guess it depends on oneâ€™s definition of â€˜what worksâ€™. The challenge was to demonstrate different methods and provide data. The decisions on â€˜what worksâ€™ is defined by and left to the reader. Both methods would have yielded live bait at the end of the day. The interesting details would lie in the measurement data and fatality count. There would be a clear winner in the challenge based on fatality count. The measurement data would provide more insight to the results.

If what Iâ€™ve posted is misleading or â€˜barely half correctâ€™, it wasnâ€™t meant to be that way. What key facts did I leave out? What is misleading? Bring it up! Letâ€™s openly discuss! Itâ€™s for the benefit of everyone.

I was not going to try and prove anything. The hourly water testing measurements and fatality count would been recorded and charted. The results, not opinions/beliefs, would speak for themselves. The readers would judge and reach their own conclusions.

I am aware of the bubbles work in blood in the medical field. Iâ€™m also aware of electronic devices that produce â€˜allegedâ€™ pure O2 nanobubbles from underneath the water, without the aid of bubble stones with air pumps or O2 bottles. We can dive deeper on bubbles if youâ€™d like.

I donâ€™t want to upset the fish with bubbles. Ok, you got me. LOL. Really? Levity is good!

I am the owner of an O2 system and fancy micro bubbler flat stone. My boat also has a 12v Pro-Air system that delivers air through standard air stones. I know how they both work and I know when to use them. I also know that both of them accomplish virtually the same outcome but I did not want to include that in the scope my challenge or alert people to that. The measurements taken during the challenge and the fatality count would have proven that those two methods yield virtually the same resultsâ€¦.casting even further shade on the O2 boysâ€¦.but that was not my objective.

Your assertion thatâ€¦.. an O2 bubble changes to CO2 underwater through diffusion as it floats to the topâ€¦ leaving behind the O2â€¦then popping at the surface and releasing CO2 from the bubbleâ€¦. seems like a stretch and this makes me smile. Also, your other assertion that O2 is leaving the bubble as it rises and going into the water because there is an O2 deficit in the water due to the fish consuming itâ€¦makes me smile even wider.

My BS meter just went off. But Iâ€™ll readily admit, that may be my BS â€˜ignoranceâ€™. Please educate all of us on where this comes from and include credible references when possible.


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## troutklr (Mar 2, 2012)

habanerojooz said:


> Thanks for chiming in Troutklr.
> 
> I chose to no longer leave my comments in that other O2 thread because it was a thread for discussion and promotion of O2 systems. I didnâ€™t want to derail it with my point of view. I said I would open this independent thread to discuss an alternative method. Stop â€˜bombingâ€™ those O2 marketing and promotional threads as you say.
> 
> ...


What do you consider a credible reference? An internet article? Wikipedia? You can second guess everything you read everywhere all you want. I for one do not base anything I learn off of one or even 2 www references. But hours of physics, chemistry, A&P, biology and even double on labs, I've seen diffusion work. Smile all you feel like you need to, I have nothing to prove to you. I've explained how it works in my post, if all you obtained out of it was a peg on a bs meter, it's ok, it's not for everyone. Trust me, a lot of people just cant get it, they drop out. Show me YOUR references that prove O2 diffusion cant happen in water, show me where it's not possible.

If you can't, then stick to your method and educating everyone on it, it's a good method that works that you're well informed on. Not so much on the O2 side.

I have both systems on my small bay boat. One is mounted in the boat, one is easily removable. I use them both just as much, sometimes even at the same time. And both have kept my bait alive and well for as long as I've needed them to

Thumbs up to you for being informative and very descriptive on a simple system anyone can put together

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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

Credible reference? Perhaps one does not exist that we can both agree is credible. No problem. I'll just concede and say you win on that since your point does not matter to me....'diffusion' is irrelevant in my Alternative Approach method. It is irrelevant because I don't need an O2 system to maintain a proper level of dissolved oxygen and 'diffusion' is not a basis for my approach. 

An 8 hour challenge period with 8 dozen 5" croakers, in 30 gallons of live well water, that is ~86 degrees, on a 98+ degree August day, is the perfect setting to provide a credible reference for all to base their decisions on. Hourly recording of dissolved oxygen, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, PH, water temp, and fatality count would have given the readers a lot of real information.

The challenge followers would witness fatalities occurring in the O2 system live well, despite maintaining or increasing the levels of O2. The followers would also see the Alternative Approach method maintaining lively bait all day with equal to or fewer fatalities than than an O2 system. (...for the record, I predicted zero fatalities in the AA method).

Virtually all O2 System users encounter live bait fatalities in their live well at some point during the day, despite having a fancy O2 system. This forces people to seek out better or pure O2, experiment with O2 flow rates, experiment with different micro bubblers, etc. Some even use water additives (e.g. Pogey Saver) to supplement their O2 System. This is a shame because many were led to believe that an O2 System is the one and only solution that they need. 

After seeing all of the water measurements and the fatality counts of the two methods, it would be clear to most, that O2 level is not the most critical factor in keeping bait alive in a closed live well system. I think that most people would see it and get it. 

Call me ignorant on the O2 systems side. That is ok. I know better and I probably provided more information on O2 and dissolved oxygen than most people already knew. There are literally thousands of views in this thread. I'm sure that many people independently researched my assertions...as they should and I encouraged it. It's telling to me that substantive, material push backs have not emerged on anything that I have posted. 

I issued the Alternative Approach challenge because talk is cheap. I was willing to give multiple people a chance to publicly discredit me at my own expense. I applaud the smart people who wisely elected not to take on my challenge.


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## SKIPJACKSLAYER (Nov 19, 2013)

How about down here in the laguna where the salinity is always extremely high? Baitstands use their water for your livewell to keep them alive longer. How can you keep them acclimate them to the salty water?


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## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

Where do you think that bait came from?.....a different area with different salinity?


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

How much quicker do they die when you take them from a prestine livewell and cast them into hyper saline LLM water? No point to fish em that way.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

SKIPJACKSLAYER said:


> How about down here in the laguna where the salinity is always extremely high? Baitstands use their water for your livewell to keep them alive longer. How can you keep them acclimate them to the salty water?


Acclimation should be incremental. Here's a suggestion for an incremental approach.

Pour all of your bait and bait stand water into the boat's live well. Once you have your boat out in good clean water, pull the plug in your live well and release ~10-15% of the live well water. Put the live well plug back in and turn on the live well pump and replace that released water with local Baffin water.

This 10-15% partial exchange is incremental and it should not harm bait fish at that level. Do this same partial exchange procedure at least one more time during the day, a few hours after the initial exchange. Keep an eye on the live well creatures after each partial exchange. Observe their behavior and stop performing this partial exchange with Baffin water if you see that it is harming their health. If you've done 2 exchanges successfully and the live well inhabitants appear to be fine, you're probably good for at least 1 more partial exchange later in the day to get them even closer to the current Baffin salinity level.

In Baffin, make sure your live well has a water re-circulation pump, spray bar, bubbles, etc. to create surface agitation in the live well and facilitate the natural exchange of gasses (CO2 & dissolved oxygen) at the water's surface. Pull dead or nearly critters out as soon as you can.

Also while in Baffin, be sure to use a water additive to control your ammonia since you won't be depending on water changes to control it. Other 2coolers have mentioned that they use Pogey Saver with success.

Good luck and please report back here and share your live bait keeping results. Tell us if you had any live well fatalities. Let us know how the incremental acclimation process worked....how many times you did the partial exchange....condition of the live well critters after each exchange....etc. Thanks!

Another suggestion for monitoring and measuring purposes.....goto PetSmart and buy a $12 hydrometer made by Instant Ocean. Use it to measure the salinity of the bait camp water and measure the salinity of Baffin Bay. Know what the salinity difference is between the two sources. Measure your live well water after each partial exchange with Baffin water and see how close you're getting to the Baffin salinity level.


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

*The best livewell will have the best water quality=best live bait quality*

Itâ€™s nice to be back in Houston a few days before the next flight. Wish the fishing was better.

Hab says,* â€œ*I guess it depends on oneâ€™s definition of â€˜what worksâ€™.â€ 

My interest is not just â€˜what worksâ€™ but â€˜what livewell system WORKS BESTâ€™ keeping $125-$150 croakers not only alive, but healthy for 2 days and 1 night in July fishing Coastal Texas and offshore.

*Livewell, wiki says. â€œ*A *livewell*is a tank found on many fishing boats that isused to keep bait and caught fishaliveâ€¦ Dissolved oxygen is the single most important factor for keeping bassalive, and an understanding of factors that affect oxygen levels will betterenable anglers to keep their fish [aquatic animals] alive.â€ If the bait box will not keep bait alive for any reason, that livewell is a failure because the bait will not be healthy and dies. 

The help at Boydâ€™s bait camp in Texas City says livewell water quality is the magic required to keep croakers and shrimp alive and healthy all day in the summer on their commercial bait boat tanks as well as a fishing boat livewell or bait bucket on a fishing pier â€" personally I believe they are right.

Mr. Boyd himself says, â€œ2 water quality parameters are required and necessary to keep croakers and shrimp healthy and happy all day in summer livewells, bait tanks and their commercial croaker boat tanks.â€ They catch and haul tons of livebait croakers and sell them to us every day. 

Mr. Boyd says, â€œChange the livewell water, control the toxins and provide plenty of dissolved oxygen continuously, maintain minimal safe DO and that is all there is to transporting great croakers and shrimp all day and overnight in any livewell or bait tank.â€ Heâ€™s right again, heâ€™s a smart dude, he does this for a living and makes a lot of out money.

LIVEWELLWATER QUALITY REQUIREMENTS


*Control the metabolic waste:* Hab, Boydâ€™s and many live baiters all know the quickest, best and easiest way to control all the metabolic waste products (Ammonia, Dissolved CO2, Carbonic acid, acid water, nitrites and organic matter (feces, vomit, scales and pieces of dead fish) in livewell water is to change the water before the water becomes toxicâ€¦ this is a no-brainer,simple and easy to do even with a 5 gallon bucket. How long does it take for livewell water to become toxic, minutes, hours, days? 

All of those metabolic toxins accumulating inside the box must be controlled, diluted and concentrations maintained constantly with the â€œsafe rangeâ€ by the fisherman whether your livewell incorporates an old fashion mechanical aeration (water pump)â€¦ habâ€™sâ€œalternative methodâ€ system. 

This is definitely not the best method to insure minimal safe dissolved oxygenation forlive transport if you overcrowd your livewell in the summer. How many minutes are required to run low on dissolved oxygen in an overcrowded livewell? Not many.
This can mean total water exchange 25 times per hour continuously with a big high volume water pump, a tuna tube flow of water, 1000â€™s of gallons through the tube per hour or less by flushing Â½ the livewell water volume 1-4 times dailyâ€¦and always take out the dead bait often during the dayâ€¦ another no-brainer. 

This is Habâ€™s â€œalternative methodâ€ that works great for most live baiters and is used successively every summer by some live baiters that do not overcrowd their livewells; the â€œalternative methodâ€ (changing the livewell water to mainly control ammonia and for mechanical aeration) has been used effectively many years thanks to the people at B.A.S.S. that invented aerated livewells in bass boats. Itâ€™s very cheap, very simple and this is certainly better than stagnate livewell water with no aeration or water exchange like a gold fish bowl. 

This method works OK for most fishermen in the fall, winter and spring months provided the environmental water is cold, not so good in hot summertime water in Texas. Overcrowd that livewell in the warm summer and you got problems with sloppy, red-nose dying and dead croakersâ€¦ thatâ€™s a no brainer.


*Insure continuous minimal safe oxygenation is necessary *â€" Overcrowding the livewell or bait tank in the summer always causes low DO problems, chronic and acute suffocation for all the baits. Overcrowding always begins when you add 1 croaker to many and predictably becomes worse with the addition of more croakers or shrimp proportionally. The bait in any livewell or bait tank either has enough dissolved oxygen or they all do not have enough dissolved oxygen and suffocate is predictableâ€¦ thatâ€™s another no brainer.
The only factor that literally limits minimal safe livewell oxygenation with habs â€œalternative methodâ€ for all live transport every summer is ambient air, mechanical aeration, water pumps and thousands of gallons of Galveston Bay water flushed through the livewell in proportion to the stocking density.

Any mechanical aeration method will usually provide minimal safe oxygenation in the summer only IFyou do not overcrowd your livewell with live bait intentionally or accidently.

A modern day life support oxygen system that delivers supplemental oxygen >21% oxygen is necessary to insure minimal safe oxygenation in the summer IF you intentionally or unintentionally overcrowd your livewell. 

You do not need a $100 DO meter to identify an insufficient DO problem in a summerlivewell... just look at the bait behavior in the livewell, another no brainer.

Live bait quality is relative, if it can wiggle thatâ€™s a good bait, fresh caught is better and â€œsuperchargedâ€croakers are no doubt the absolute best live bait a fisherman can make himself. Some fishermen can discern live bait quality and are picky about that livebait quality, many do not discern live bait quality and are not picky about bait qualityâ€¦ all can discern poor quality and will always chose and hook-up the liveliest croakers before hooking-up those lethargic red-nosed croakersâ€¦ another no brainer.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

I agree one does not need an expensive DO meter. Why would one waste even more money chasing that stuff?

Keeping 12-15 dozen croakers ($125-$150) bait alive for 2 days and 1 night is yet another different scenario, which I'll refer to as Scenario #3. The Alternative Approach method works in this third scenario as well and I'd include the use of additives.

The alternative method works in the Summer quite well. Like right now, June-August. It works using the same no-brainer principles and methods that are successfully used in the Fall, Winter, and Spring.

Overcrowding? How much is too much? That is a function of several factors, one of which is size of your live well. People are going to buy what they want and it may or may not be too many for their live well. Rather than debate what is overcrowding, I'm going to point out how to approach overcrowding when using the Alternative Approach system.

Simply put, the way to attack overcrowding using the Alternative Approach system is to be more vigilant in the process of maintaining your water quality. It is as simple and no-brainer as that.

- Overcrowded conditions require more water changes and larger volume water changes in the beginning. Adjust the frequency of the changes as you progress through the day, contingent upon the remaining load and the observed conditions.

- If you're not performing water changes to control the water quality and the ammonia, I highly suggest that you use a livewell additive. There are many additives on the market under different brands. Most of them control the same basic things...ammonia and chlorine...plus, nitrites and nitrates, etc. Remember, if the fish can't breathe due to scorched gills, the best or most DO in the world is useless.

Overcrowding is an issue. Ammonia builds up even faster in an overcrowded situation. But overcrowding isn't something that you will always be able to avoid. The key always will be to manage the ammonia and maintain high water quality, regardless of the level of crowding.

===

Back to the Alternative Approach method.

Some of you have been using an O2 rig for awhile. Here's an opportunity to take off your training wheels. This will be a leap of faith for some of you....

I know that it will be odd at first and maybe a little scary to have a live well full of bait and no O2 bubbles flowing. It may be an eye opener for many as it goes against everything that you've been taught to believe.

But after a few hours go by and few water changes, and witnessing your bait in a calm and lively state, you'll become more comfortable with this no-bubble method. You will experience lively bait till the end of your fishing trip or until you run out.

You may have a few, possibly even fewer, live well mortalities than you previously did the last time you kept live bait and used only O2 (without performing water changes, no ammonia additives).

*The next time you get bait...pour the contents into your live well...fill up the live well to your desired level....and leave the O2 or bubbler turned off the entire day....follow the Alternative Approach method that I've laid out in this thread...for one entire fishing trip.*

One trip. No O2 bubbles. Try the AA method and prove it to yourself. You will always have your O2 system as a backup if it looks like a disaster is brewing. But can you resist the temptation to turn on the O2 for one trip?


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

habanerojooz said:


> One trip. No O2 bubbles. Try the AA method and prove it to yourself. You will always have your O2 system as a backup if it looks like a disaster is brewing. But can you resist the temptation to turn on the O2 for one trip?


 Good to be back home a few days before the next trip.
Actually, I don't see anything positive about reverting back to that antiquated old fashioned "Alternative Approach" you present to managing livewell water quality that has always worked so poorly in the summer, every summer, forever, comparatively... but the AA may be better than old stagnant water in a goldfish bowl full of fish probably.
Personally, I'm convenience and really spoiled to better oxygenating technology that totally eliminates those old summertime livewell water quality low DO problems and flying at altitude as well as saturation diving (blue lips, hypoxia, cellular suffocation, ice/hypothermia, red-nose and sloppy live bait in general all summer).

Oxygen technology is great only if and when it is absolutely dependable like an oxygen life support system in aircraft that pilots and passengers depend of to work when supplemental O2 is needed. Of course like croakers, sometimes there is simply not enough O2 in ambient air and the result is predictable... hypoxia. And that is not good or healthy. O2 deprivation can be very deadly, very quickly for a croaker, shrimp, mullet or man when it the supply is limited or short. As a pilot and a man, I had rather have plenty of that O2 gas than not enough of it any day, how about you?

On the upside of fishing O2 technology, I have been looking for a real high pressure commercial grade oxygen regulator that is less prone to Galvanic Corrosion (a common metallurgy problem with aluminum O2 regulators that are exposed to salt water and salty air coastal environments). Corrosion, malfunction and failure is expected when aluminum medical O2 regulators are exposed to and used in these marine salt water environments. All these so called "fishing O2 regulators" with the aluminum alloy bodies used are commonly sold around Galveston Bay. They are certainly not made for nor dependable for use in marine environments, they're disposable like plastic bait's. They corrode, fail and all the bait dies in the livewell when you need the O2 regulator to really work all day providing plenty O2 for the livewell full of croakers. O2 regulator failure is not only disappointing, but expensive when all those expensive croakers catch the red-nose and die, know what I mean? I just don't want to have to worry about sloppy dying croakers in the box all day every summer especially if I don't have to do that any more. To me it well worth a couple hundred dollars to eliminate that summer aggravation forever with new livewell technology... what do you and your advocates think about that?


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Standard medium sized boat livewell. Livewell pump on a timer fills with fresh and overflows. Mr. Bubbles bulbbler with two lines and two stones on each side of livewell.

Bought 12 dozen croaker this past Friday morning. Put bait camp water and Mr. Bubbles for about 2 hours. Then put boat in water.
Fished 5 hr trip pumping in fresh water on/off every minute or so. 

Fishing was slow. End of day had about 6 dozen croaker left over. Pulled boat out of water about 11:30am. Parked in driveway overnight with Mr. Bubbles on and no freshwater added. Put in a small amount of dead shrimp for them to eat.

Launched next morning about 5:30am and started pumping fresh water 1 minute one 5 minutes off and Mr. Bubbles. Fished offshore with sardines. Used no croaker. Pulled boat out of water about 11:30am. Parked in driveway overnight with Mr. Bubbles on and no fresh water added. Put in a small amount of dead shrimp for them to eat.

Launched next day at 5:30am and started pumping fresh water 1minute on 5 minutes off and Mr. Bubbles. Fished 5 hour trip with croaker and shrimp. Pulled boat out about 11:30am. Had at least 2 dozen croaker at end of day.

Parked in driveway overnight with Mr. Bubbles going. Fished next day 5:30am and used the rest of them.

Had exactly ZERO dead loss. Not one. At all. Mr Bubbles on for 4 days. Fresh water (which is fresh/salt from recent rains around Galveston) pumped in daily and allowed to overflow drain out. Bait was as lively as could be. They lasted just as long and lively in hour one as they did in hour 76 when we used the last one.

It was well over 100 degree heat index every one of those days. And the surface water quality is assumed to be purdy terrible right now although i have no need to meausure whatever.

Tell me again why i need oxygen?


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## rvrrat14 (Sep 9, 2006)

My livewell is insulated, round, and has an overflow standpipe. If I got good lively bait at the bait shop, I run intake pump all day except when boat is underway. I have a cheese grater under boat to bring water into wells when running. If Iâ€™m in dock areas, the intake valves are shut off to keep spoiled water from entering. This has kept croaker and shrimp alive all day. Good fresh bait the key to begin with.

Iâ€™m finding bait quality going down and have seen where I run 10 miles and more than half the croaker are dead on arrival. I have used Croaker Saver when running and frozen bottles of water. Still, marginal bait dies.

Iâ€™m setting up a O2 system now. I feel this, along with constant intake of fresh water, will provide the best method to keep croaker alive. Welcome suggestions and to see how this works.


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## JJohnson34 (Jun 27, 2018)

rvrrat14 said:


> Iâ€™m setting up a O2 system now. Welcome suggestions and to see how this works.


Me too.
You may or may not be aware of the regulator failure problems associated with aluminum alloy oxygen regulators when used in and around marine environmentsâ€¦ the problem is Galvanic Corrosion. I have looked several months and have found a couple real commercial grade high pressure O2 regulators that are adjustable flow that are made of metals that are very resistant to Galvanic Corrosion when used around marine environments. 

Buyer beware on the aluminum regulators because not all O2 regulators are made for use inmarine environments as advertised. It is vitally important that the life support system does not fail and it pays to do the homeworkâ€¦ careful what you buy. O2 regulator failure with $150 of croakers in the box is a very sad day in July all because Galvanic Corrosion and the O2 life support system failed. 

Just food forthought when considering a fishing o2 system. It has to be absolutely dependableand work correctly not just most of the time, but all of the time every day.


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