# Grab the beer and chips... it's a thermocline thread!



## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

For those who are wondering what this is all about, jump over to the Masonic Tournament thread and get caught up real fast.

On this board, and two others, I have been reading about people who lose fish to the dreaded thermocline and have been lectured about leaving jugs out all night. First off, I know what a thermocline is, and have experienced them underwater first hand, so I don't need a lesson on them.

I've been jugging about 4 years and river fishing via trot and drop lines for 6, and until I started the guide service, I NEVER, not one time, did any line checking in the middle of the night, every 30 minutes, or anything. My method is quite simple, 10 lbs of weight, jug line, bleach bottle. I bait out around sunset, and they sit there, undisturbed, until I drag my happy rear end out there the next morning to run 'em. Then I bait them again, and there they sit until I go back that evening at sunset.

Not one time, not once, not on a lake, not on a river, have I ever pulled up a dead fish that was not foul hooked, gut hooked, torn up by a gar, or was a seriously small fish (a la less than a pound) that got its eye/head/lip/etc decimated by the 7/0 and 8/0 hooks I use. If you go to this link, www.photobucket.com/ufgatorharv, you can look through all my pictures of all the fish of varying sizes I have caught off of jugs and trot lines last year alone. Every one of those fish was caught on a line that had been sitting in the water unchecked for at least ten hours. Now you may argue that every one of those fish was hooked not more than 30 minutes before I checked that particuliar line, but I think we all will admit that is highly unlikely. The biggest fish I have ever caught, the one that is my avatar on this site, survived a jug line all night, then was tied via stringer off a dock cleat for another 8 hours until my girlfriends father arrived because he _had_ to see a 60+ lb fish. This was in August, and it was seering hot outside.

Also... when I go jug fishing, it is usually a Thurs-Sun affair at Conroe. I will spend all Thursday afternoon cast netting all the perch I need for three nights of jugging. They go into a big bait basket and get tucked away in a super secret location on Conroe for three days. Now I do lose perch in the basket over the course of the weekend, but even 90% of them survive, and they can't move the basket out of the way of a thermocline. I would also argue that perch a little more fragile than a catfish.

Furthermore... Last year, a couple of days before Hurrican Ike, we decided to go jugging on Conroe w/ the big low pressure moving in. I think it was September 10th, but that morning about 10 am, the San Jacinto River Authority guys pulled up to our boat and told us to get off the water. Half of my gear was still sitting there unchecked. A hurricane blew over, the lake was closed for about a week, and about 10 days later, my girlfriend and I finally got back on the water to see what if any gear we could retrieve. We had about 20 jugs left out there. I think we found 8. All of them were empty and tangled except for one. It had fish on two of the three hooks, both were about 4.5 lbs-ish, and they were alive. I swear that is true on my mother's unfilled grave, on the Bible, you name it. Those fish not only survived a thermocline, but a hurricane.

To argue a fish cannot survive much more than 30 minutes on a jug... I just have to disagree. Many catfish can survive that long out of water period, much less in the water tied to a line. When we river fish, the fish we pull off sit on the bottom of a rather warm aluminum jon boat for at least 15 minutes or so while we check the other lines. Then we throw them in a cooler with no ice, and no water, just a wet towel on top, and drive another 10 minutes back to town. Then we take pictures in the front yard, then we string them from a swing set, then we commence cutting tails off. Most of them shake, and move, and make the signature croaking sound even the moment before we whack them with a brick to simmer 'em down. So they have survived at least 30 minutes, out of water, in nothing more than a cooler.

If I were doing what I do, and constantly pulling up dead fish, I would stop. It would be insane to keep doing something that doesn't work. But I am sorry, at least not for me, a thermocline has never been an issue. So as this tournament goes, you know what I am going to do. If I get the opportunity to get down there and fish it, my lines will sit there all night, and I promise you I will show up to Scott's Ridge w/ living, frisky fish... if I catch anything. And unless someone is paying me to be out there all night, when I fish for personal recreation, I am going to continue doing the exact same thing that I have been doing.

I swear to each and every one of you that I am telling the truth. I even offer a jugging trip in which we do not check lines through the night. We just bait, come back in the morning, and run 'em. Why on earth would I let someone pay me for that if I thought there was even a chance that we were gonna pull up nothing but dead fish the next morning...


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## Gator gar (Sep 21, 2007)

Why do you think that so many peoples fish die then???? We read about it every day in the hot summer. I know commercial trotliners that would say you are crazy, as their fish die on the lines over night, in deep water. that is why their mainlines are not but at the most 5 foot under the surface in the summer.

The only thing that I can see that is different, is that you use a 10 pound weight on your juglines and most everyone else uses a 1 pound weight. I don't know if the fish is pulling that 1 pound weight and dying of exhaustion or what.

It still wouldn't explain them living on a trotline as you say they do. There are just too many stories to conflict with yours. Is this just a night time thing??? Or, does it apply in the daytime too????

Just curious.


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## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

Well for the most part, it is a night time thing. I don't have problems during the day either, but I also don't catch nearly as many blues. It's mostly smaller channels during the day. They don't die either though.

The weight thing could be it. I also don't fish right in the middle of stumps, maybe a lot of people's fish are beating themselves sensless against wood. 

I would guess some people misattribute a swallowed hook death to a thermocline. If you run lines every 30 minutes, many fish that swallow a hook will still be alive. Now if you let them sit there for a hour or more, they'll probably be dead. If someone is accustomed to bringing in fish every 30 minutes, there's not much at all that can kill them that fast, so they think every fish should be alive every time. If they run late by an hour, and bring in a dead one... well, must've been a thermocline. Truth is is could have been a number of things.

I don't know what randyrandy was saying about white spots, etc. A fish that dies in a thermocline essentially suffocates. It shouldn't look much different than one that suffocates in a live well, or one you leave sitting on a dock. Unless it got picked at by smaller fish.

I am not naive enouh to think that a thermocline never kills a fish. I can say it has never happened to me, but I am sure it has happened. I just believe that people make way too big a deal about it and often go through too much effort to avoid something that in my opinion is rare at best. Of course a commercial fisherman is gonna run lines faster. Aside from worrying about fish dying, they also want to keep hooks baited to maximize catch and minimize time to catch. 

I have read of other dudes on fishingtx doing jugging the same way I do. I know I have read about KWCF leaving jugs out overnight. He seems to be a well repected jugger over there. He doesn't seem to have thermocline problems either.


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## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

OIne other small point. I don't know what area of Scott's Ridge-ish he was refering to, but the deepest water around there that I have seen is about 19 ft. You get anywhere near shore, particuliarly on the forrest side, and it's quickly under 8 ft. There just can't be much thermocline in a water column that short. When I have been diving both in fresh and saltwater and felt one it was most times 15 ft or more down and lasted for another 10 ft or more. There is too much wave, wind, and wake action, particuliarly near shore, mixing the water to have two distinct layers of water with two different temperatures that shallow.

I have also been diving, felt a pronounced thermocline and seen first hand fish above and below that line. They all seemed to be pretty happy to me, not holding their breath and running for their lives.


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## Gator gar (Sep 21, 2007)

I guess I am going to have to put this theory in motion and see for myself. I myself, can't remember ever losing a fish on an anchored jug. I have lost them on a trotline in the summer,by not getting to them the next morning, but waiting til the following evening. So, they set through the hottest of the day.

I have just "HEARD" about this so called thermocline, so much, that I jumped in on the bandwagon with the rest of them. Until I put in practice, during the hottest part of the summer( as you have) I really won't know absolutly for sure.

With a 5/0 circle hook, you rarely gut hook one. What I will do, is closely examine the exit point a little closer and see if that could have caused the fish death. Alot of times, that hook will come out of the eye, or through the skull between the eyes at some point.

Instead of calling you crazy, I'll take the time and put the time in as you have and come to my own conclusion. It's my fault for listening to so many people and just assuming what they said was the gospel. I should know better than that.

I'll go ahead and eat my crow now for breakfast and right or wrong, you'll hear back from me.

Mark


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## aFishinigo (May 12, 2009)

*Dead fish on jugs*

I was out with my Sister and brother in law Early sat morning and we set out 11 jugs, thats all i had on my boat at the time,at 2 am we set three of them in 50' of water near the river channel. We went to our r&r hole and fished until 5:30 am and went and checked the lines. We had a catfish on all 3 lines and they were hooked on the bottom hooks and two of them were dead. my bottom hook is 5' off the weight at the bottom.The jugs were set out about 30 yards apart. ??????????????????????? Can anyone explain this, The fish looked fine and had probably just died prior to checking lines.


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## Gator gar (Sep 21, 2007)

aFishinigo said:


> I was out with my Sister and brother in law Early sat morning and we set out 11 jugs, thats all i had on my boat at the time,at 2 am we set three of them in 50' of water near the river channel. We went to our r&r hole and fished until 5:30 am and went and checked the lines. We had a catfish on all 3 lines and they were hooked on the bottom hooks and two of them were dead. my bottom hook is 5' off the weight at the bottom.The jugs were set out about 30 yards apart. ??????????????????????? Can anyone explain this, The fish looked fine and had probably just died prior to checking lines.


It is the same story, time and time again.


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## obiewan57 (Sep 14, 2005)

Before Jugging was outlawed on Gibbons Creek, I had jugs set in open water, 15 foot deep. Put them out in the afternoon, went back to run them in the morning. Each line had three hooks different depths. This was in August, hot time of summer. I had five fish the next morning on different jugs and all were dead. I took up the jugs.
I use 20 oz weights, but these were 2 lb fish, so they did not pull the weight around, did not bump into anything underwater. Thermocline? not sure...but hot water, no wind, and depleted oxygen most likely killed these fish.

Have you ever seen anyone fertilize their personal pond in August to promote algae growth, it usually cuts off the oxygen in the water, ferilize and hot weather do not mix in small ponds. The fish die...no jug line, no hook, just die from no oxygen.

Thermocline is a distinct seperation of warmer surface water and colder deeper water. I would think in extreme hot times, the fish that die will most likely bite the hook at night while surface temps are coolest and die as the surface water heats up on the shallower hooks.


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## Fishin' Soldier (Dec 25, 2007)

obiewan57 said:


> Thermocline is a distinct seperation of warmer surface water and colder deeper water. I would think in extreme hot times, the fish that die will most likely bite the hook at night while surface temps are coolest and die as the surface water heats up on the shallower hooks.


I understand a thermocline to be the water under the about 10-15 down and the problem being on deep hooks? Am I wrong about this and it is the surface water that is the supposedly bad water? This thread has conflicting idea's and want to understand this completly. I know I have seen what I thought was the thermocline line on my depth finder.


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## obiewan57 (Sep 14, 2005)

Thermocline is a distinct seperation of warmer surface water and colder deeper water. That is the definition as stated when I did an inquiry on the internet.

On an large lake the thermocline might very well be where the deeper water has no oxygen. I have always heard the fish will hang near the thermocline,  is this because the water below has less oxygen or the water above has less oxygen. In a small pond or in a power plant lake (which is small compared to non power plant lakes) where the water is warmer, there might not even be a thermocline unless the lake is extremely deep (deeper than 30 feet), thus in hot summer time a power plant lake might be low oxygen at all levels during the hot part of the day or on a calm (no wind action) hot night.

Thermoclines are different in power plant lakes than other lakes for sure.


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## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

Fishin' Soldier said:


> I understand a thermocline to be the water under the about 10-15 down and the problem being on deep hooks? Am I wrong about this and it is the surface water that is the supposedly bad water? This thread has conflicting idea's and want to understand this completly. I know I have seen what I thought was the thermocline line on my depth finder.


Weldon's definition is spot on, and yes, often times you can see them on a depth finder. Water, like anything changes density w/ temperature. The denser a substance is, the faster a sound wave will travel through it, and the more likely it is to return an echo.

As per Gibbons, that lake is just plain hot. I swear in August the water near the discharge can top 100 degrees. It is already about to pass 95. Hell, I've swam near the discharge in February, and it has been kinda comfortable. I think the heat in general, not necessarily a thermocline killed those fish.


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## aFishinigo (May 12, 2009)

UFg And GG what are the depth of your first hook from the weight?


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## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

aFishinigo said:


> UFg And GG what are the depth of your first hook from the weight?


Every one of my jug lines is exactly the same. They are 22' long with three hooks... working up from the bottom they are at 3', 6.5', and 10.5' ft. How deep the water is depends on how close that top hook gets to the surface, but I regulary fish water much shallower than 10.5' w/ all three hooks on. In that scenario, I roll the extra line around the neck of the bottle till I get within a foot or so of the jug and put a rubber band around it. Then the current usually stretches the line out at a 45 degree-is angle, and at that point, that top hook is awfully close to top water.

If the water I want to fish is deeper than 22', I attach a 50' extension w/ a knot in the line every ten feet, and wrap the extra line around the bottle and band it accordingly. The knots let me guage how many feet of line I have out.

Wrapping a rubber band around extra line has the same effect as a flagging jug; it's just harder to false flag it. You pull me up to a line that has that band popped off, and I can guarantee you there is a fish over 5 pounds on it 75% of the time; the other 25% it has gotten off or has become gar food. You just can't see that from a distance like a flagging jug.


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## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

typo


aFishinigo said:


> I was out with my Sister and brother in law Early sat morning and we set out 11 jugs, thats all i had on my boat at the time,at 2 am we set three of them in 50' of water near the river channel. We went to our r&r hole and fished until 5:30 am and went and checked the lines. We had a catfish on all 3 lines and they were hooked on the bottom hooks and two of them were dead. my bottom hook is 5' off the weight at the bottom.The jugs were set out about 30 yards apart. ??????????????????????? Can anyone explain this, The fish looked fine and had probably just died prior to checking lines.


I don't often fish that deep, but one fish I can remember losing was a yellow cat, bottom 8/0 hook, 43 feet-ish, that definitely weighed under a pound. I caught him by the **** and the hook was through his eye, but I have pulled up plenty that were alive w/ a hook through their eye. That may have been a thermocline in all honesty, but I also caught two blues that morning in the 8 pound neighborhhod off the bottom hook on jugs that were within 50 yards of that one at the same depth.

That is far too coincidental for me to say "thermocline" w/ out a doubt


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## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

I am so certain of what I am saying here, I will offer a standing wager to anyone who is up for it. This offer stands now through the end of August:

I offer a guided jugging trip on Lake Conroe in which we go out in the evening, put out a ton of jugs, do some sight seeing, consume adult beverages, and then return to dock and head our seperate ways for the rest of the night. Those jugs sit there unchecked all night. At 8 am the next morning we show back up at the dock, head out and run the lines for the first time in nearly twelve hours. Now this being my first season of guiding and all, I have yet to do that trip w/ anyone, but it is essentially a re-creation of what I would do on my own for fun.

I charge $325 for that trip. Here is my bet...

You come fish w/ me on Lake Conroe. We are going to hit my spots and use my gear. I'll even let you pick a few places. I will supply all the boat gas, gear, bait, pay my deck hand, and ramp fee. I will also stock my cooler full of a beverage of your choice for you. On top of that, remember, I will be towing a boat 120 miles round trip from Bryan/College Station AND paying for overnight accomodations since I don't live in Conroe. If you can hang after we bait out jugs, which would entail dinner and beer at Grampy Larry's or El Dorado Jack's, plus more drinking back at my campsite, you can even stay by my side all night to make sure I don't go anywhere near those jugs till morning comes.

We are gonna leave the next morning around 8 and run those lines. Now, *aFishinigo,* just said he lost 66% of his fish in a single trip. Here are my rules, which I am flexible on to a certain extent:

1) The fish must be over 1.5 pounds. These are mighty big hooks for a fish that small.

2) The fish must not be foul hooked, gut hooked, or have a hook through its skull or eye. AKA, a clean bottom lip hook.

3) It must not have been torn up by a gar, or sucked by a bigger cat.

4) The fiush must not appear to have beaten itself senseless on submerged structure. There are only two spots where I fish where this might happen, and I will plainly announce it as we pull up to the spot.

5) If we pull up a dead fish that does not fit the first 4 criteria, it MAY be a thermocline, but if I move to another jug 20 yards over and pull up another LIVE fish at the same depth, safe to say there was no thermocline in that area.

I would be shocked if we lost more than a couple because of ANY reason, but if you can show me more than one fish that we all agree is dead for none of the 4 reasons above and does not fit the criteria in #5, I will concede a thermocline, and you win. That is me betting his 66% against my near zero. If you win, I will be out all the money I spent to make the trip happen, you'll get the trip for free, and I'll donate $50 to a charity of your choice in your name.

If I win, you pay me the normal $325, and you at least got a jugging trip out of it and hopefully a big one.I would be shocked if we lost more than a couple because of ANY reason.

I am dead serious. Click on the link in my signature, there is my phone number and contact info. Let's do this.


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## Postalsnap (May 29, 2007)

*My comfortable thermocline*

Looks like there's a lot of fighting over the thermocline. I usually just kick my kids out of my thermocline so I can sit and watch the game. Of course that's after I brush all of their cookie crumbs and toys out of it.


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## Corey270 (May 18, 2009)

Postalsnap said:


> Looks like there's a lot of fighting over the thermocline. I usually just kick my kids out of my thermocline so I can sit and watch the game. Of course that's after I brush all of their cookie crumbs and toys out of it.


LOL


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## AlaskaTex (Mar 9, 2006)

Y'all:

I don't post very often; I don't talk much in real life either for that matter but I do have a question. If the water below the thermocline is such fish poison, why would a fish go down there to start with?

Years ago we used to scuba dive on the Louisiana side of Toledo Bend and spear cats in the grass beds on the south end of the lake. I can remember shooting a number of big fish below the thermocline. I think I remember it because we would about freeze our rears off down there!

Just sayin'..

A.T.


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## Gator gar (Sep 21, 2007)

AlaskaTex said:


> Y'all:
> 
> I don't post very often; I don't talk much in real life either for that matter but I do have a question. If the water below the thermocline is such fish poison, why would a fish go down there to start with?
> 
> ...


To cool off. But they always go back to where they can breath.


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## redduck (Jul 26, 2006)

I have read in fishing magazines about the thermocline and seen drawings of dead fish on trot lines to illistrate the affect of the oxygen depleted thermocline. I have felt a definite temperature line (colder water) about 7-8 foot deep while swimming as a kid. In fact we used to put watermelons in toe sacks (burlap bags for you younger folks) and sink them down to cooler water during the hot summer months while camping. I do not know if this was the thermocline or not. I have caught cat fish on trot lines that were dead. This did not happen very often and I can not swear it was because of thermocline. Some folks rationalize the fish went into the oxygen low water for food and could not return in time so they died. Catfish can live a long time in and out of water where other fish will die. I do not know a lot about this subject but I do know a lot of bass are caught at night or daytime (mostly early mornings) on topwater lures in the summer months. This would tell me the top layer will support fish even if it is the hottest water.


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## dpiper (Nov 24, 2004)

Harv,

First off, congratulations on your guide service Harv. It's a tough business and I hope you succeed.

Now then I've enjoyed this discussion a lot. And I am one who believes in the thermocline phenomenon and that is kills fish due to lack of oxygen. It the winter, spring and late fall there is no problem, at least on my lines, with fish dying if I don't check them often enough. But in the summer there is. My last two trip I have had a few die. Both times with jugs only soaking a couple of hours. 

A few differences between how you're jugging and how I jug:
1) I typically jug 18 to 25 feet of water. A greater chance of a thermocline in deeper water;
2) I use five 5/0 hooks equally spaced; and
3) I usually jug Little Lake Creek either the mouth of it or near little island.

The dead fish are usually hooked through the upper lip and eye. I don't think a hooked eye will kill a fish. Caught too many through the eye that lived in the cooler too long. I don't jug near timber unless someone has planted a Christmas tree. I have caught a few Christmas tress. Those trees can get heavy. 

I'd take you up on your bet but obviously you're doing something right. How about taking an all night trip with me and you can see how I'm doing it and witness a dead fish. I'll pay for the gas and refreshments. All you'll need to bring is yourself and a cast net because I can't throw one.

Donald


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## cookie (Oct 26, 2004)

well i have put a thousand or so catfish in the boat since i have been jugging for about 8 years now and the only time i lost some was when i was doing jugging contest in july on conroe. we set them out and just ran the flagging jugs for 8 hours pulled up 8 dead fish that had not flagged. all perfectly hooked but stiff dead and in 20 foot of water. did noticed most fish were above 12 off the bottom on depth finder like they were hovering above the line? i try not to jug during the summer if i did i would use floaters or just bait the top hooks, or run them flagged or not contuniously. it just really bothers me to pull in a dead fish. i try to stock up for summer months in the frezzer but some people need fish year round. so run often. i think there is a lot that plays into there deaths. water flow into a lake proububly plays more than anything i feel. rivers shouldn't be a problem. good luck and hope all your fish are alive when they hit the ice chest


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

Jugging rules when it comes to getting catfish in the boat, aint no doubt about it. Jugs are different for everybody and I have no doubt that everyone is telling the honest truth about their experiences, no doubt,. LOL!
If anyone wins a bet and they collect, is it internet gambling?
How deep is Lake Conroe? Lake Livingst0on experiences a modified thermocline because it is a shallow lake. It does get one at about 15' usually. Kills a bunch of big stripers every year. I see them floating after their haunt gets O2 depleted.
But not all of the lake developes a thermocline, mostly past Pine Island going South.
Here is a link to lake Conroe regarding average depth and being 20'. Too shallow for a thermocline to develop. It does have a deepest section that is 70' deep, there might be a place on Livingston right at 70' but 66 to 68' is what most deep holes on the Trinity have for depth. However the entire South end From Pine Island Soth is about 35' average, deep enough for a thermocline to develope. 
http://www.lakeconroecvb.org/dyncat.cfm?catid=1676
Is part that you fish on Conroe deep enough for a thermocline to develope? I can see one on my depth finder, do you see one where you fish?
SS


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## dbullard (Feb 13, 2008)

I believe a hook in the eye don't kill fish in the winter so it shouldn't in the summer.I have only had a few die on the hook .All in the summer and none in the winter hmm!All 20 plus water none swallowed the hook and all hooked in the mouth.If you have stuck a fillet knife in a catfishes brain to kill him you know his brain is up past the eyes.You hit the brain and it is over.Thermocline I don't know but I believe each Lake is different and it can vary on different areas of a lake depending on wave action and local runoff.I hope you don't have fish die but if you want to test it wait till mid July and get a nice live fish and hook him on the bottom hook in 30ft of water in the calmest area you can find and see what happens. 
good luck with guide service!


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## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

dpiper said:


> Harv,
> 
> First off, congratulations on your guide service Harv. It's a tough business and I hope you succeed.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the well wishes. Everything is going great so far. I actually own a small business here in Bryan, so the guide service is not a make or break deal for me. I'm fortunate in that regard.

Your offer... Have cast net; will travel. I'm in, and insist you at least let me chip in for gas or buy you dinner or something. If you are up for it, maybe we could put 5 or 6 of mine out too in some nearby spots I usually hit, but let those go unchecked till the morning and see if there is a difference. I don't doubt what you are saying. The question is why is there a difference? I'll expand on that in my next post since it isn't really specific to just you.

Speaking of all night trips, I just got back to Aggieland at noon today from taking some clients out for my very first guided jugging trip. I had 10 jugs out around the Little Island, LLC area at depths from 9.5 to 21 ft and we didn't have any dead fish. We had 42 jugs out across both sides of the lake from as far south as Walden's course/April Plaza to as far north as the Sam Houston National Forest shoreline accross from Scott's Ridge. The shallowest one was in 6 ft of water, and the deepest we went this trip was 23.7 ft. We began baiting out at 6:30 pm Saturday and finished around 9:30 pm. After dinner at El Dorado Jack's and some rod and reel fishin', we ran them for the first time starting at 1 am and finished around 4 am, checked and rebaited a select area of them again at 5:30 am, and went out and ran them all for the final time between 7 and 9:30. That's about 6 hours between repective runs. We caught two gar and 22 channels and blues ranging from barely legal to 29 lb 2 oz. One of the two gar was dead and one blue cat was dead but had either been sucked on by a bigger cat or torn up by turtles. There was a small, maybe half pound mudcat on the same line three feet underneath him that was alive and kicking. None of the fish we pulled up looked even remotely tired or out of breath.

On a side note, I don't see how guys like you, Wayne, and CT do these all night affairs. We got up around 7:30 on Saturday morning to start working on bait, and didn't finish cleaning the last fish for these guys until almost 10:00 am on Sunday. I am absoluitely wiped out. I'm a die hard Magic fan and will probably sleep straight through the game tonight. You guys certainly have my respect, because, aside from your offer, I'll rarely do an all nighter unless someone is paying me to do so.

Thank you again. Let me know, and we'll figure out a time when we can slap some kittens around.


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## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

In the Mason Tourney thread and this one, here is all the conflicting stuff one or another of you said... I'm paraphrasing, but you'll get the gist. I actually think this is kind of funny:

Deep hooks = certain death due to thermocline
Shallow hooks = certain death from overheating

Deep hooks = fish safe from overheating
Shallow hooks = fish safe from thermocline

Large sharp piece of metal poking through fish's eye socket for 12 hours? No problem!
Don't check your line for 30 minutes? Certain death!

I felt a thermocline swimming in 8' of water.
Thermoclines develop in 20' or more.

I've spearfished catfish below a thermocline.
We sank watermelons in a lake.

I will say it again; I acknowledge that thermoclines exist. I have expercienced them first hand. I am certain that at some point, a thermocline has killed a catfish somewhere. Just not any of mine to which I could attribute it. I just think people make WAY too big a deal about them, and attribute too many fish deaths to it. A lot of people on this thread admit to have just have ""heard" or "read" or "seen drawings" of it. Well what the hell does that prove?

If you run your lines every 30 minutes, there is not much of ANYTHING that is going to kill 'em that fast. So you slip up one day and run a couple hours late and find some dead fish... logical assumption... "Well, it must've been this thermocline we've been hearing about!"

I think some of you are confusing overheating with a thermocline. Well my fish don't die of that either. On your shallow lines with hooks very close to the surface, leave 'em a few feet of slack, and they can move around and go down enough to keep cool 'til you get back. I promise. If you have a line in 50 feet of water in the middle of a hot August day with a hook a foot under the surface, you my friend are probably not gonna catch much besides gar, and I frankly could care less whether those creatures overheat or not, so keep on keeppin' on.

This talk of losing all your fish or even 2/3rds of them. Maybe Livingston is different than Conroe, but if that happens to you on Conroe, something is seriously wrong. As I have stated, 95% of the time when I jug Conroe, those lines stay out and are not checked all night. I _might_ lose a fish or two an entire weekend. I'm taking DPiper up on his offer, and we're gonna figure out what is shaking down. My wager to the rest of you still stands. No takers yet... hmmmm...


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## Gator gar (Sep 21, 2007)

As bad as I hate to go. I would like to tag along on this trip too. I have a big net and access to all kinds of bait that I can bring from Livingston. I want to see the results first hand and be there when the meeting of the minds takes place.


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## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

lol, "Thermocline Summitt '09" sponsored by cast nets, oxygen depleted water, No Doze, and Keystone Light


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## dpiper (Nov 24, 2004)

We'll set it up but it can't be this weekend, fathers day. And yes GG you're invited we'll leave CT and Wayne at home. We can all learn something from each other.

Strange thing this weekend is we didn't loose one fish. We even let the jugs soak because it was a little slow. We jugged mostly 18 to 20 foot waters on the north end. Even hauled in a 58lb'r.


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## crockerag (Nov 9, 2007)

Once a thermocline becomes established, the water column has become stratified and the cooler water will not mix with the warmer water at the surface. This can be a problem because the surface water (epilimnion) is subject to atmospheric gas exchange which helps keep the water oxygenated but this oxygenated water will not mix with the cooler waters. Then, during the summer months the biological demand for oxygen increases due to microbial decomposition of organic matter on the bottom. This depletes the oxygen in the cooler water (hypolimnion) and creates hypoxic (Dissolved Oxygen Less than 2.0 ppt) or anoxic conditions. There can also be hypoxic conditions on a lake at night in the epilimnion because the phytoplankton will switch from photosynthesis to respiration processes (uses lots of oxygen) to sustain themselves. 

After all that science, fishing at night with a jug line may expose the fish to more environmental stressors (low dissolved oxygen) in addition to the stress of being caught thus increasing the fishes oxygen demand. This may be why some are experiencing mortality.


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## UFgatorHarv (May 16, 2009)

DP,

Me too. Can't do it this weekend. Also have a trip booked on Gibbons on the the 28th, which essentially cancels Sat. the 27th. Let me know, we'll figure it out. 

Saw about your 58, that's one hell of a fish. By north do you mean one of the jungles/Cagle, or just north of 1097? If you want to pm that answer or not answer at all, much understood.


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## dpiper (Nov 24, 2004)

It was caught south of Lake Hostelers (sp) near one of the jungles in about 20' of water. 

Not to far from where Wayne caught the 62lb'r year before last.

The 60lb'r we caught a few weeks ago came from LLC.

A note on the catfish brain. It is immediate death if you puncher it. No doubt.

Just pick a weekend.


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## KINGFISHER71 (Jan 1, 2005)

YEAH!....what Crockerag said!


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