# Spiral pattern for guides



## wolverine (May 29, 2004)

So what is the advantage (or disadvantage maybe) to putting guides on a blank in a spiral pattern?

I saw a friend's rod the other day he got from Billystix in a contest that is the spiral style guides, Billy told him it'll cast farther, but i said well what do you think and he just said "ey, its ok i really can't see a difference".

Just curious about this spiraling technique.


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## Shieldski (Dec 2, 2007)

Your casting distance is not affected. What is changed is the stability of the rod. When fighting a fish with a typical "guides on top" set up, the guides are automatically going to want to twist to the bottom of the rod. This is the reason why spinning set ups feel more stable when fighting a fish. So by transitioning the guides to the bottom of the rod, you now have the castability of a baitcaster style reel, as well as the drag capacity of a sit on top reel with the stability of a spinning set up. Here's a couple of pics.

This is a pic of me doing deflection testing with a 10 foot shark rod with spiral guide set up:









Here's a pic of what the guide path looks like:









And here's the pic that says it all. With me leaning back on the rod, I can actually flatten out my hand and the reel (a Penn 6/0 wide) stays perfectly upright. On a standard "guides on top" rod the reel would spin to the bottom almost instantly under force without a firm grip on the rod. 









So essentially it just stabalizes the rod and reduces fatigue while fighting a fish. There are MANY different types of spirals. Simple, O' Quinn, modified O' Quinn, etc. Each serve their own purpose based on the type of rod being built. I try and push all my customers toward a spiral wrapped rod. Once they try it they never go back.

Jeff Shields
Shieldski Customs
www.shieldski.com


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## Terrynj (Jun 27, 2006)

That is spot on Jeff! My wifes fishing experience changed 3 fold with her rod that is spiral wrapped. It is so much easier on her wrist and makes her feel more in control of a fight.
You will cast further when you get a custom rod, but it is for a variety of reasons...better blanks, guides, positioning, and the spiral may not help, but is sure doesn't hurt. I have always used Castaways and Allstar's for myself and her,...with her custom spiral wrapped baitcaster, she can cast as far as most guys (never could before). I will never ever personally use a rod with conventional placement again. It makes no sense to put guides on top period. The only rods I ever make with guides on top is because the owner can not make the mental adjustments to a spiral. It is just the old mind set of not accepting new concepts! Production rod companies do not market them just for that reason....acceptance. Loomis came out with some and they totaly tanked, so they just dont mess with it and just keeping cranking out the same ole thing.
I did see a spiral at the Fishing show at the GRB in March...Castaway had a split grip spiral with a blank painted orange (what a good idea). The salesman was very proud of it and I think it was around $295...light and looked nice.


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## d4rdbuilder (Jan 19, 2007)

That about sums it up... Once you go spiral, you'll never go back. 

One other thing, (inshore mostly) it prevents rod torque, therefore helping to control fatigue and ultimately aid in preventing breakage.


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## Goags (May 28, 2004)

Here's a spiral wrapped Calstar 20-30lb rod loaded up pretty good! This rod, w/ guides on top would have been a goner. From a C. Rica trip. No comments on my shoes, please(they ARE washable)!


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## Terrynj (Jun 27, 2006)

OK, no comment...


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## Sharkbite (Dec 16, 2004)

Which side do you put the spine?


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## d4rdbuilder (Jan 19, 2007)

Put the spine where ever you want it. I gave up on the spine sometime ago and now setup on the straightest axes.


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## Brad K. (Sep 5, 2007)

? Gave up on the Spine.

I have read somewhere recently that w/ modern blanks finding the spine is not important. Is there any truth to this.


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## Terrynj (Jun 27, 2006)

Brad K. said:


> ? Gave up on the Spine.
> 
> I have read somewhere recently that w/ modern blanks finding the spine is not important. Is there any truth to this.


What Doug was saying and what you are hearing is that most builders have stopped worrying about the spine so much and are building on the straighest axis. If you take a blank and rest in on 2 pts back around the handle, you can slowly roll it in place and watch the tip go in a circlular motion, sometimes it will make an arc 1.5" in diam. So what i do is rotate it to the highest point mark it, and use that to locate the guides. Most of the time, the spine is very close to this location, but can be off 30 degrees. If you build on the spine that is 30 degrees off of straight, when someone looks down the shaft admiring your work, the rod will list off to one side and it looks very crooked and bad....not good for custom work. In golf they call it a slice or a hook...


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## Brad K. (Sep 5, 2007)

O.K.....,I recently finished a customer rod and spent 2 days trying to figure out why the tip looked crooked. I was positive it was straight but it "hooked" back to the left just slightly. Not enough for anyone to notice but to me it was VERY obvious.

Thanks for the explanation. Can this also happen with larger offshore blanks? Or just mainly with the lighter inshore blanks?

Thankyou very much for the explanation, I learn something from you guys every time I log onto this site. AMAZING wealth of knowledgs here!!!!!!!!!


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## wolverine (May 29, 2004)

Good explanation guys thanks.
Honestly though i don't feel my baitcaster want to torque to one side while i'm fighting a fish but i'll take your word for it. Makes sense.


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## Terrynj (Jun 27, 2006)

wolverine said:


> Good explanation guys thanks.
> Honestly though i don't feel my baitcaster want to torque to one side while i'm fighting a fish but i'll take your word for it. Makes sense.


It is not as pronounced on the inshore rods as it on the offshore, but it is there. Anyone that has ever placed a baitcaster in a rod holder while you are trolling has seen them rotate to the guides on bottom as soon as they get pressure on them. It is also what gives spinning reel setups the solid, stable feel.

This is an excellent write up on guide theories that I adhere to. They do not push spirals because of the acceptance issue, so I use the fuji concept to lay them out, then rotate them to the bottom.

http://www.anglersresource.net/ar/general.html?fb=1008&topic=Advantages+of+Fuji+Concept+Guides


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## Brad K. (Sep 5, 2007)

I also use the Fuji Concept guides and placement theories. Only problem so far one customer said it made the rod a little to "Tippy" which I agree it did.

But really like the extra guides and the clean line lay!


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## Terrynj (Jun 27, 2006)

Tippy? Too heavy?
I use the Fuji LSG single foot fly guides as close to the stick as I can get and go down to 5's as quick as I can. I also use the Batson single foot fly guides and AmTac Titanium, but use small guides. I always felt that smaller guides didn't cast as well, but Steve Gardner (he is on 2cool now) showed me they don't harm distance and he has success with VERY SMALL guides increasing casting distance. I just can't get my leader knot (braid to fluro) to go through them.


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## captneilf (Feb 29, 2008)

Hi, 

Okay, first the disclaimer. There are very few WRONGS or RIGHTS in rod building. You can build the rod any way your little heart desires. If it works for you who cares what someone else thinks.

I read all that I can. I have attended many seminars all around the US of A. I listen to the speakers, check out all the rods on display and ask all my questions. After I get home I sort thru all the info. Then I decide what will benefit my rod building. I take what info I want and fill the rest for maybe a later day.

Ahhhh, the spine/spline!!!!! First off as I understand it the word SPLINE is in our rod building vocabulary due to a typo error when Dale Clemens wrote the first book. The word has hung around all these years. The correct word is SPINE.

You can make the spine as confusing as you want. I keep it very simple for my customers. Using a spine finder, horizontal and/or verticle type, I show my customers what the spine is all about. It is the position the rod wants to go to and rest when the tip is loaded and it is able to freely rotate. Now I believe in using the spine to my advantage. Others believe it makes little difference and believe in the straightest line of the blank. To each her/his own. You can debate this forever and not change the other sides mind. So why try?

Years ago I was taught that the straightest blanks were sold to custom rod builders. The next group of blanks in the pecking order were used by the blank companies for their factory rods. The next group being less straight than the previous group were sold to OEM companies for their rods. The last group were so wiggly that they were sold as blem/seconds. The OEM companies would build on the straightest line as their customers would site the rod before buy to make sure the rod was straight.We could usually get them for 1/2 price of a perfect blank. I was a less expensive way for us to try different models to see what worked best for our needs. Unfortunately some rod builders sold the blems as new blanks and charged accordingly. The blank companies found this out when customers returned broken rods under warranty. So now blems are cut up by the blank companies. This is the story as I learned. Maybe recently things have changed but I have no knowledge of it.

So much for history.

A few years back I built a 5' demo rod that had 2 sets of guides installed, one set wrapped on top of the spine as in a conventional rod and the second set of guides wrapped in the spiral fashion. I have pink mono going thru the conventional guides and green mono going thru the spiral guides, both coming out of the same reel. Using a vertical spine finder I can show them how to find the spine, what the rod is trying to do when the tip is loaded in both modes of design. They will see how the conventional style will twist/torque to the right or left. This is due to the line being above the center line of the blank. This will happen if you wrap on top of the spine or don't. Next they get to pull on the green line, spiral wrapped fashion, and see the rod stay in position, no twisting/torquing. I also take this demostration to shows. Most anglers will say that they agree with everything I showed them but would not be caught dead holding such a rod on a party/head boat.

My first spiral rod was built on a Calstar GX 7. I designed it and wanted to fish it the next day. So I wrapped each guide and tip top onto the blank with 1 turn of 1/2" masking tape on each guide foot. I fished the rod hard for 4 days in a row using 6-8 oz sinkers in 60-70" of water in the ocean, catching many seabass and porgys. At the end of 4 days every guide was still in place. None moved or came off the rod. This test confirmed what I was looking for. I can reel fish in with the fore grip resting in my open palm, absolutely no twisting/torquing.

Yes, I still fish with my normal conventional rods. I even use hand lines and still consider that to be the most sensitive method. I will fish with anything, even factory rods, ha, as they catch more fish around the world than spirals.

Be back in a few minutes.

I build quite a few spiral rods over the course of a year.


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## Terrynj (Jun 27, 2006)

Great info Captneil! I really like the Calstar story...thats incredible.. your wisdom and experience always shows through. You are right too about to each his own. I get excited and carried away with some of the rod building techniques, but at the end of the day...it's just a fishing rod! lol


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## Profish00 (May 21, 2004)

Jerry those are goofy looking shoes:cheers:










Spiral, whats a spline.....lol

Little 12lb test action Trout fishing.... I don't care what side the guides are on it's still work.


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## captneilf (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm back, 2 grand children over for dinner and Gram's delicious pancakes, couldn't miss that offer!

I am a firm believer in the spiral wrapped design. Anglers complain about hand fatigue at the end of the trip. That is all about holding the rod to prevent the rod from twisting. I had on 2 different occassions guys about 40 years old come to the shop and order 2 rods, both rods using the same blank. They wanted the spiral design for their older fathers because they had health issues in their hands BUT they wanted conventional wrapped rods for themselves. So they understood the value of spiral rods. Other anglers with injuries in the neck, back and shoulder areas have asked me to design them spiral rods. Each angler after using the rods said it allowed them to enjoy fishing again and with less pain. I am sure many of you can add to these stories.

I had one of my spiral stand up rods, All America Roller spiral guides, on the San Diego EXCELL a couple years ago when they had the greatest trip ever. My friend took a yellow fin tuna over 250# and said he believed the spiral allowed him to get the fish to the gaff more quickly. Other anglers say they think it works better on the smaller tuna. Some anglers on a rod building board believed the big tuna would rip the transition guides right off the rod. That did not deter me from building spiral stand ups. Guess who won!!!

Now to designing such a rod. This is how I do it and others have their way. Remember most of my rods are used from a boat using sinkers, bottom fishing. Very few rules for me.

1. I spine the blank, mark it on top and use that as my reference point.

2. The closest 180* guide above the fore grip should be in position before the blank flexes. Sometimes hard to do on a fiberglass blank.

3. The line can not touch the blank while rotating from the top to the bottom in the transition area. This can be difficult when using wide reels, like a 50W etc.

4. Using the Static Deflection method I set the guides up on top of the rod. When satisfied then I rotate all but the 2 guides closest to the fore grip under the blank, 180*s. I now add the extra guide between the first two guides above the fore grip. These three guides are now the transition guides.

5. I rotate to the left. My logic is that it may offset the weight of the right side, cranking side, of the reel. This point is certainly up for debate. The first guide I set around 20-30*'s to the left. The second guide I place half way between guide # 1 and #3 and around 120*s, this is a starting point. The third guide is around 160-170*s.

6. My typical guide set up is #20-16-12-10's-8's and even 6's depending on the action and length of the blank. Over the years I have found that using a smaller guide between the 1st and 3rd guides works best for me, 20-12-16, 20-10-16 and even 20-8-16 etc. Sometimes the first guide is a 16 and so on. With the line running thru the guides I will play with the #2 and #3 guides till I get the desired results. I do move the #2 guide up and down the blank, n-s and also e-w. The most difficult set up for me can be a stand up rod with spiral roller guides, especially with wide reels. I have spent several hours on these till I was happy.

When satisfied wrap the rod.

I do not have a formula or method set in stone. Each blank comes out different. This is my method. I know this is 2 lengthy posts but if it helps one of you I accomplished my goal. It is all about education and helping others. I would be very interested in reading other designers ideas, trials and tribulations.

Thanks for taking the time to read these 2 posts.

Capt Neil

PS, You will find articles and posts explaining spiral guides set up using different methods and words. They all have merit, maybe some are better than others. All I can say is read them all, try each one to see which works best for you and EXPERIMENT.


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## Charlie2 (Aug 21, 2004)

*Spiral Wraps*

I've been a student of Captain Neil for many years. When I first ran up with him, I was interested in the Spiral Wrap and I made a good selection of mentors. I've had many, and I owe them all and even have a following, FWIW; new guys that I pass on things that I leatned from the 'old guys'; I have to be careful with that word as I'm now 74 years experienced. I have also stumbled onto things by complete accident just by watching and trying.

I was among the first to advocate the use of the spiral on surf rods. I heard all the usual speak from the nay sayers, but it wasn't until I ran into Ralph O'Quinn and people like Captain Neil who encouraged me; I made it work. Now there are peoplw who 'knew it all along' .

I find that a spiral wrapped surf rod will cast as well as a cnventionally wrapped rod without torque and resultant fatigue. There are a lot of people that are wrapping with other methods other than the O'Quinn method and are not satisfied with casting. Billy V and others ran casting comparisons with conventionally wrapped rods, saving me a bunch of time and writing (Thanks; Billy) which proved me right. I haven't wrapped conventionally in about 8-10 years. I wrap them big and little.

A funnty thing: As reported in the Rodmaker Magazine article on surf rods, it reported that I had rods placed among friends? for evaluation. I got good reports but not a single rod back. I guess they work.

I haven't been on this board in about 3 years and apologize. I see a lot of my old familiar guys from other boards.

I am an 'innovator', called otherwise by my significant other who, is unafraid to try something new. I do enough cosmetics to see if I can do it, but my rods are functional; not ugly by any means, but presentable. I have people who like to do such things and they delight in guadying up one of my rods.

Again; I'll try to do better.

Webmaster: I am not a complete idiot; it just seems so. I finally dug around and found that(1) I am registered and (2) Have a password. Mea culpa. [email protected]


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## captneilf (Feb 29, 2008)

Hi Charlie,


Always good to read your posts!

I think we could kill a few beers over who is the student, you or me! I think we are both still students of the game. The best part is that you and I are still learning from each other and especially all these younger rod designer/builders who have taken the craft to new limits. I know of the great work the guys in the northeast have accomplished. Now I get to see and learn all about the great work being done by the members on this site.

Does life get any better?

Take care,

Neil


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## bigscale (Jul 16, 2007)

i think it is an advantage to the wrapper who cant wrap guides straight, he just wraps them crooked and tries to get everyone to drink the kool laid.


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## texasredfisher (Mar 11, 2005)

*FOUL!*



bigscale said:


> i think it is an advantage to the wrapper who cant wrap guides straight, he just wraps them crooked and tries to get everyone to drink the kool laid.


I WAS REALLY ENJOYING THIS THREAD AND THEN WE CAME THIS POST? WHAT THE HECK? CLEARLY A FOUL HERE. ISSUE THE MAN A YELLOW CARD, OR A RED CARD, OR THROW A YELLOW FLAG, OR CALL A TIME OUT AND GIVE A FREE SHOT TO THE SHOOTER .....WHAT THE HECK? :work: YOUR OUTTA HERE...LMAO


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