# 5 Houston cops shot



## tec

Hard to understand why this hasn't been posted here yet. Five Houston police officers were shot a couple of hours ago. Prayers for them. They try to protect us from the animals.


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## Category6

Because weâ€™ve all been glued to the news, not 2cool bubba


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## Muddskipper

Iâ€™m trying to figure out if we can go down and donate blood tonight .... or if they prefer we wait until regular hours ....


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## DA REEL DADDY

Prayers for all


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## Muddskipper

So they have not put anything official but I am hearing Memorial Hermann so I donâ€™t know if it is any memorial Hermann or just the one downtown


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## photofishin

reading some of the anti police comments on social media really makes me mad. I seriously wish we could round up the anti police idiots and send them to Syria.


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## Cut n Shoot

Wondering why the dead perps have not been identified. Turner has declared Houston a sanctuary city.


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## JoeintheBackyard

Cut n Shoot said:


> *Wondering why the dead perps have not been identified.* Turner has declared Houston a sanctuary city.


Not too hard to figure out.


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## Tortuga

Cut n Shoot said:


> Wondering why the dead perps have not been identified. Turner has declared Houston a sanctuary city.





JoeintheBackyard said:


> Not too hard to figure out.


Yep.."black tar heroin" kinda narrows the field...


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## ReedA1691

photofishin said:


> reading some of the anti police comments on social media really makes me mad. I seriously wish we could round up the anti police idiots and send them to Syria.


Or Southeast Houston...or Sunnyside.....or Gunspoint


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## ReedA1691

Muddskipper said:


> So they have not put anything official but I am hearing Memorial Hermann so I donâ€™t know if it is any memorial Hermann or just the one downtown


Whatever you do, don't go to the Gulf Coast Regional.

I have no experience with Hermann Memorial and their tracking system for donations tagged to individuals. I know how MD Anderson's works (sad to say). With things like this, the news will eventually give some direction on where you can donate. They will retroactively credit the blood to their accounts.


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## batmaninja

Cut n Shoot said:


> Wondering why the dead perps have not been identified. Turner has declared Houston a sanctuary city.


Some good guesses, but -


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## andre3k

Thankfully, all the officers will recover (evntually). It could have been much worse we would have been preparing for funerals right now. 

I don't know all of the officers involved but I know one of the officers that was shot in the neck. He could have retired long ago but he's still out there making entries and putting crooks in jail. 

These are the operations that the public never sees. When people get stopped by an officer on traffic and ask why aren't they putting the real criminals in jail, trust me these are hundreds of us out there putting the "real" crooks in jail, but you don't hear about them until something goes wrong, and you won't even hear about it when things go right. 



Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## DA REEL DADDY

Thank you for your service and please stay safe.


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## Lat22

Somethingâ€™s not adding up. How to go from having no record to shooting it out (with a .357) against a bunch of cops?


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## HoustonKid

Thankfully it appears all of the officers are going to be ok. Four where shot one blew his knee/quad taking cover. One thing is for sure, the crooks picked a fight and the good men of HPD finished it. They took fire and instead of running away they engaged the threat and neutralized them. 

Two for the good guys.


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## HoustonKid

Lat22 said:


> Somethingâ€™s not adding up. How to go from having no record to shooting it out (with a .357) against a bunch of cops?


You don't have to be smart to use heroin.


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## Lat22

What heroin?


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## HoustonKid

Lat22 said:


> What heroin?


The warrant being served was a result of a heroin investigation.


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## Whitebassfisher

Lat22 said:


> What heroin?


One story I read said undercover cops had purchased heroin there more than once while making their case.


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## sea sick

Tortuga said:


> Yep.."black tar heroin" kinda narrows the field...


Guess it didn't narrow that field enough haha
Hilarious... yall thought it was some brown or black folk and boom!!!! Oh no its ****** haha
Hey.. ain't guna lie... I thought it was ******* myself.. and before anyone says I'm racist... I'm a ****** myself!

Prayers go out to the po-po and their families... as far as the dealers go.. beats a long drawn out court case. Justice served


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## DA REEL DADDY

sea sick said:


> Guess it didn't narrow that field enough haha
> Hilarious... yall thought it was some brown or black folk and boom!!!! Oh no its ****** haha
> Hey.. ain't guna lie... I thought it was ******* myself.. and before anyone says I'm racist... I'm a ****** myself!
> 
> Prayers go out to the po-po and their families... as far as the dealers go.. beats a long drawn out court case. Justice served


A quick Google on opioid deaths in 2017 just in Texas had the following race ethenticy statistics;

White non hispanic 1,014
Black non hispanic 121
Hispanic 307

The tied has really turned from the 70s where the Hispanic culture was the main consumer of heroin. Now with this opioid epidemic (which heroin and Fentanyl is) the white race is soaring in deaths.

The Devil's Brew. Ask an addict or an addict's love ones. They will tell you the truth, that it is darkness.


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## TxDuSlayer

glad all five of my brothers will be okay, even though they will have a long road to recovery I wish them a speedy recovery. As far as the turds go glad your six feet under and not writing books and smiling on tv!!!!!!!!!


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## Bonestock

Appears to be a whole lot of side stepping starting to take place with this. I'm sure we'll never hear the truth though.


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## photofishin

Bonestock said:


> Appears to be a whole lot of side stepping starting to take place with this. I'm sure we'll never hear the truth though.


This is the problem I see...we have a bunch of Internet Jr detectives pretending that they're holier than thou. Leave the investigation to the REAL detectives and STOP with the BS conspiracy theories. THAT is what's wrong with America...we have waaaaaaaay too much anti police rhetoric.


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## fishinguy

I think there are better ways to serve a warrant than kicking open someones door in plain clothes without warning and shooting their dog and wife. That is not to say they are in the wrong but just think there is a better way to accomplish their goal with less confusion. Also hindsight is always 20/20 so we're Monday morning quarterbacking something that went down in a matter of seconds.


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## Timemachine

I saw a story yesterday about it being the wrong address. Is this true?


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## fishinguy

Timemachine said:


> I saw a story yesterday about it being the wrong address. Is this true?


They were at the correct address. The warrant appears to be very credible.

The informant claims to have made two purchases from the house and accurately described the house.


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## HoustonKid

fishinguy said:


> I think there are better ways to serve a warrant than kicking open someones door in plain clothes without warning and shooting their dog and wife. That is not to say they are in the wrong but just think there is a better way to accomplish their goal with less confusion. Also hindsight is always 20/20 so we're Monday morning quarterbacking something that went down in a matter of seconds.


Wow. Do you really think in this day and age the police would kick someone's door open in plain clothes guns blazing? You obliviously have no clue. I can guarantee you they were well marked with police all over their body armor. Had marked units out front with lights on. Uniformed officers on the perimeter and likely at the door with them. Announced police, search warrant prior to kicking in the door. Unless it was a no-knock warrant. If that was the case, they would not announce police but in this situation, I doubt it was a no-knock. They are not that easy to get a judge to sign.

You sir, have zero clue how modern police operate.

I run several search warrants every month. If anyone on my squad does not have police clearly on their person they don't go into the house during entry. We have marked units out front with the lights on and hitting their siren. HPD follows very similar guidelines. I guarantee you two bad guys are dead because they decided to shoot at the police fully knowing they were the police.


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## batmaninja

fishinguy said:


> The informant claims to have made two purchases from the house and accurately described the house.


Was the informant paid? Was he on drugs? Was he going to get a reduced sentence? Seems like a lot of trust got put into an informant.

For comparison sake look at how Roger Stone was taken down, in a predawn raid, with helos, cops with long guns and body armor. This drug dealing gang, (in TX no less) got a no knock, at 5pm on a Monday evening, from cops in plain clothes armed with shotguns.


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## Gilbert

HoustonKid said:


> Wow. Do you really think in this day and age the police would kick someone's door open in plain clothes guns blazing? You obliviously have no clue. I can guarantee you they were well marked with police all over their body armor. Had marked units out front with lights on. Uniformed officers on the perimeter and likely at the door with them. Announced police, search warrant prior to kicking in the door. Unless it was a no-knock warrant. If that was the case, they would not announce police but in this situation, I doubt it was a no-knock. They are not that easy to get a judge to sign.
> 
> You sir, have zero clue how modern police operate.


it was a no knock warrant


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## HoustonKid

Does it matter the informants motivation? If the proper procedures were followed, informant was searched prior to going in and came out with drugs. On two occasion at a minimum. 

If you know a no-knock warrant was obtained, then a judge with a lot more information than what we have decided it was a necessary option. 

Again, I assure you they were wearing identification that said police on them. Even if a no-knock, once the door is breached, you being to identify as police.

At least that is what we do as do every other law enforcement agency I've worked with. The only reason for a no-knock is the element of surprise and not get shot while attempting to gain entry. Once in the house, you want them to know you are the police and not trying to rob them.


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## Gilbert

2 week investigation, where is all the heroin? day before the informant allegedly buys heroin, brings it to the cop, they identify it as heroin. informant claims there are a bunch of bags of heroin. next afternoon, raid, home owners are dead along with the dog. 5 cops injured, no heroin.


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## HoustonKid

Hmmm. Drug dealer has dope one day and not the next??

It was sold????


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## batmaninja

HoustonKid said:


> Does it matter the informants motivation? If the proper procedures were followed, informant was searched prior to going in and came out with drugs. On two occasion at a minimum.


Uhhh, yea. Does it not scare you that this kind of warrant is this easy to obtain?

Informant claims heroin, and a semi 9mm. Neither were found. No money either. So yea, I am questioning the confidential informant.

Regarding the no knock at 5pm on a monday. Why not take the guy down when he took the dog on a walk?

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...evedo-releases-portion-of-search-13574924.php


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## THA

batmaninja said:


> Uhhh, yea. Does it not scare you that this kind of warrant is this easy to obtain?
> 
> Informant claims heroin, and a semi 9mm. Neither were found. No money either. So yea, I am questioning the confidential informant.
> 
> Regarding the no knock at 5pm on a monday. Why not take the guy down when he took the dog on a walk?
> 
> https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...evedo-releases-portion-of-search-13574924.php


O.K. so a semi 9 M/M was not found. Doesn't seem important since some other gun WAS found, the hard way. By no heroin found, says the guy was a good salesman and a good turnover rate.


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## Gilbert

HoustonKid said:


> Hmmm. Drug dealer has dope one day and not the next??
> 
> It was sold????


where is all the cash?


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## batmaninja

A semi auto was in plain site, during the first drug deal. But the old man decided to grab a 6 shot wheel gun for a multi person close quarter gun fight? And not the shot guns that were found?

So the guy sold the drugs and presumably got cash. Where is the cash? Probably didnt take it to a bank or a credit union. Did he send it south already, wash it at a the Golden Nugget? Did he get paid in Bitcoin? 

My point in questioning the informant. Is that he hasnt gotten much right so far. Can we agree on that?


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## Gilbert

this is what you would have expected to find in a drug raid

A man and a woman were charged after police say they found $25,0000 of meth in their Galveston County home. - https://abc13.com/5114466/


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## photofishin

batmaninja said:


> A semi auto was in plain site, during the first drug deal. But the old man decided to grab a 6 shot wheel gun for a multi person close quarter gun fight? And not the shot guns that were found?
> 
> So the guy sold the drugs and presumably got cash. Where is the cash? Probably didnt take it to a bank or a credit union. Did he send it south already, wash it at a the Golden Nugget? Did he get paid in Bitcoin?
> 
> My point in questioning the informant. Is that he hasnt gotten much right so far. Can we agree on that?


I think what we can agree on is that there are 4 cops shot and another injured and we have a bunch of jr Internet detectives trying to create conspiracy theories making our uniformed officers look bad. Stop the BS and let people MUCH more qualified do their jobs.


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## CHARLIE

The Police did their job and did it properly. This goes on most every day. I cannot believe some folks attitude.


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## batmaninja

photofishin said:


> we have a bunch of jr Internet detectives trying to create conspiracy theories making our uniformed officers look bad.


Reread my posts on this thread. Everyone pertains to facts.


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## HoustonKid

Gilbert said:


> where is all the cash?


How many drug raids have you been on? How many heroin dens have you been in? The drug dealers at this level live deal to deal. Thereâ€™s no large sum of cash laying around. In all likelihood they got the dope on credit and had to pay their source before they would give them more dope.

The lack of knowledge does not surprise me though. Most of you donâ€™t do this for a living like I do. Nothing that Iâ€™ve read or from the officers Iâ€™ve talk to leads me to believe there is anything unusual about that raid other than the shooting. 
Iâ€™ve run hundreds of warrants over my 23 year career. Iâ€™ve been involved in three use of deadly force incidents. Itâ€™s not a fun day nor is it something we enjoy. It is however a possibility so we plan for it.


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## photofishin

batmaninja said:


> Reread my posts on this thread. Everyone pertains to facts.


I did...and my comment still stands...you and others like you are pretending to be some sort of jr Internet detective. Show me your badge, your law degree or anything else which qualifies you to spend time online trying to bash the police. Rhetoric like this is EXACTLY what's wrong with America. You saw it after Ferguson, you saw it with the fake "hands up don't shoot", you saw it with Sandra Bland killing herself...we've had 8-10 years of nonsensical lies and rhetoric spread by Internet wannabes like you who pound their chests as if they had 30 years experience in law enforcement.


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## photofishin

HoustonKid said:


> How many drug raids have you been on? How many heroin dens have you been in? The drug dealers at this level live deal to deal. Thereâ€™s no large sum of cash laying around. In all likelihood they got the dope on credit and had to pay their source before they would give them more dope.
> 
> The lack of knowledge does not surprise me though. Most of you donâ€™t do this for a living like I do. Nothing that Iâ€™ve read or from the officers Iâ€™ve talk to leads me to believe there is anything unusual about that raid other than the shooting.
> Iâ€™ve run hundreds of warrants over my 23 year career. Iâ€™ve been involved in three use of deadly force incidents. Itâ€™s not a fun day nor is it something we enjoy. It is however a possibility so we plan for it.


Thank you for your service


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## fishinguy

HoustonKid said:


> Wow. Do you really think in this day and age the police would kick someone's door open in plain clothes guns blazing? You obliviously have no clue. I can guarantee you they were well marked with police all over their body armor. Had marked units out front with lights on. Uniformed officers on the perimeter and likely at the door with them. Announced police, search warrant prior to kicking in the door. Unless it was a no-knock warrant. If that was the case, they would not announce police but in this situation, I doubt it was a no-knock. They are not that easy to get a judge to sign.
> 
> You sir, have zero clue how modern police operate.
> 
> I run several search warrants every month. If anyone on my squad does not have police clearly on their person they don't go into the house during entry. We have marked units out front with the lights on and hitting their siren. HPD follows very similar guidelines. I guarantee you two bad guys are dead because they decided to shoot at the police fully knowing they were the police.


Do you purposefully enter a discussion ignorant of the facts?

It was a no-knock warrant.

Also want to add , thank you for your service, that is a job I would never want to do. I just am not a huge fan of the no knock raid because it puts everyone at a higher risk of being killed.


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## fishguru00

HoustonKid said:


> How many drug raids have you been on? How many heroin dens have you been in? The drug dealers at this level live deal to deal. Thereâ€™s no large sum of cash laying around. In all likelihood they got the dope on credit and had to pay their source before they would give them more dope.
> 
> The lack of knowledge does not surprise me though. Most of you donâ€™t do this for a living like I do. Nothing that Iâ€™ve read or from the officers Iâ€™ve talk to leads me to believe there is anything unusual about that raid other than the shooting.
> Iâ€™ve run hundreds of warrants over my 23 year career. Iâ€™ve been involved in three use of deadly force incidents. Itâ€™s not a fun day nor is it something we enjoy. It is however a possibility so we plan for it.


another thanks you for your service!


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## batmaninja

photofishin said:


> Rhetoric like this is EXACTLY what's wrong with America.


The first amendment. That's what you are upset about now. You want to take away people right to free speech unless you agree with their point of view? Sounds promising :goldfish:


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## photofishin

batmaninja said:


> The first amendment. That's what you are upset about now. You want to take away people right to free speech unless you agree with their point of view? Sounds promising :goldfish:


 it seems idiots hide their ignorance behind the constitution for their right to spew lies and hatred about our police. For some reason that's the ONLY time you agree with the constitution...when you can bend it to justify your hatred/ignorance.


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## mtbfreak

HoustonKid said:


> Wow. Do you really think in this day and age the police would kick someone's door open in plain clothes guns blazing? You obliviously have no clue. *I can guarantee* you they were well marked with police all over their body armor. Had marked units out front with lights on. Uniformed officers on the perimeter and likely at the door with them. .


Unless you have direct firsthand knowledge of the incident you cannot 'guarantee' any of the statements you made.


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## mtbfreak

photofishin said:


> it seems idiots hide their ignorance behind the constitution for their right to spew lies and hatred about our police. For some reason that's the ONLY time you agree with the constitution...when you can bend it to justify your hatred/ignorance.


The only ignorance is NOT questioning and just accepting things as they are or as you are TOLD.


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## HoustonKid

mtbfreak said:


> Unless you have direct firsthand knowledge of the incident you cannot 'guarantee' any of the statements you made.


Yes I can because I do. They were wearing the proper police identification. The only part I was unclear on was the no knock part. I believe I addressed that in a prior post.


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## HoustonKid

In the end it does not matter what we say here. A grand jury of our peers will have all of the facts and make a determination. We will see then how uninformed some of us are. Iâ€™m out until then. 

Thank you all for the thanks for doing my job.


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## Whitebassfisher

One fact we can't argue about apparently is that 4 Houston cops were shot. Anyone willing to shoot a cop is crazy, so I am not loosing sleep over the dead couple that had lived there. The cops kept it contained in the house rather than letting it spill over and hurt innocent bystanders. My guess is that the cops wish at this point they had handled it differently in some way, since it hurt 4 cops. But past that, I can't say anything except thanks to the wounded and everyone else there that day. This who scenario will be critiqued to learn what to do better in the future.


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## jetbuilt

mtbfreak said:


> The only ignorance is NOT questioning and just accepting things as they are or as you are TOLD.


Hey hey now...we don't need any common sense thrown into this discussion! We'll likely never know the whole truth. We're all human here (I think) and as such are all capable of making mistakes...some of those mistakes carry great consequence.


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## mtbfreak

HoustonKid said:


> In the end it does not matter what we say here. A grand jury of our peers will have all of the facts and make a determination. We will see then how uninformed some of us are. Iâ€™m out until then.
> 
> Thank you all for the thanks for doing my job.


Fairly true, hope you are not ever entangled in a mess like this. Be safe.
tony


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## Texas T

Some of the know it alls need to go ride with the LEO's some Friday or Saturday night and have their eyes opened up. Another alternative is to sign up for a Citizens Police Academy class. If y'all need help on either just ask for it.


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## andre3k

fishinguy said:


> Do you purposefully enter a discussion ignorant of the facts?
> 
> It was a no-knock warrant.
> 
> Also want to add , thank you for your service, that is a job I would never want to do. I just am not a huge fan of the no knock raid because it puts everyone at a higher risk of being killed.


In regards to a no-knock warrant, the raid team does announce their presence. They just dont knock and wait for a response. Everyone is in clearly marked tac gear that reads POLICE. There are multiple marked patrol units with lights and siren on, and usually they are on the PA shouting....Houston Police.... Search Warrant!

If your house happens to get hit by one of these squads there will be no doubt on the entire block that your home is being raided by the police.

I can't speak for how other departments do it, but unless you're deaf and blind it won't be mistaken for a home invasion.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## andre3k

Texas T said:


> Some of the know it alls need to go ride with the LEO's some Friday or Saturday night and have their eyes opened up. Another alternative is to sign up for a Citizens Police Academy class. If y'all need help on either just ask for it.


Perfect Timing

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## CHARLIE

Probably some of you folks voted to give the fireman same pay as Police Officers too.


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## Whitebassfisher

CHARLIE said:


> Probably some of you folks voted to give the fireman same pay as Police Officers too.


I am not writing this to put down police, but rather to support our FD's along with our PD's.
It may not be true, but I read that FD's are so fast about responding that they need bullet proof vests too.


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## Rubberback

Whitebassfisher said:


> I am not writing this to put down police, but rather to support our FD along with out PD.
> It may not be true, but I read that FD's are so fast about responding that they need bullet proof vests too.


We need them both! I have no idea about there pay but they both do a job where their lives are endangered everyday their at work.


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## duckmania

Its a really tough and dangerous job. God bless them.


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## andre3k

Press Conference today regarding this incident. It will answer most questions.

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1vOxwZNOldvJB


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## ralph7

CHARLIE said:


> Probably some of you folks voted to give the fireman same pay as Police Officers too.


Proud to say I wasn't one of them.

Now we can't afford what was voted in.
This was explained in the past.


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## Whitebassfisher

andre3k said:


> In regards to a no-knock warrant, the raid team does announce their presence. They just dont knock and wait for a response. Everyone is in clearly marked tac gear that reads POLICE. There are multiple marked patrol units with lights and siren on, and usually they are on the PA shouting....Houston Police.... Search Warrant!
> 
> If your house happens to get hit by one of these squads there will be no doubt on the entire block that your home is being raided by the police.
> 
> I can't speak for how other departments do it, but unless you're deaf and blind it won't be mistaken for a home invasion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I just want to re-enforce how vital announcing yourself is for your own safety.

I won't go into all the details, but not only am I deaf but had also taken Ambien one night that the FD thought my house was on fire (it wasn't). They were breaking down my door and yelling "fire department" continuously. I did let them in after they finally woke me (door destroyed) but I never feared for my life because of their announcement of who they were. Those who know me said "I am surprised you didn't shoot!" But I explained to them that the announcements they were making kept me from that. My neighbors were telling the fire department "He is deaf, he may be in there!" It is all a funny past story now, but something to keep in mind for those executing warrants.


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## andre3k

Whitebassfisher said:


> I just want to re-enforce how vital announcing yourself is for your own safety.
> 
> I won't go into all the details, but not only am I deaf but had also taken Ambien one night that the FD thought my house was on fire (it wasn't). They were breaking down my door and yelling "fire department" continuously. I did let them in after they finally woke me (door destroyed) but I never feared for my life because of their announcement of who they were. Those who know me said "I am surprised you didn't shoot!" But I explained to them that the announcements they were making kept me from that. My neighbors were telling the fire department "He is deaf, he may be in there!" It is all a funny past story now, but something to keep in mind for those executing warrants.


Hence the sirens, emergency lights on, full uniformed officers within view of the target, verbal announcements over the PA, and verbal announcements by the raid team as they enter. It's very redundant on purpose to reduce the probability of mistaken identity.

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## Reloading

I also have questions about this, I hope there is an independent investigation (Texas Rangers?) to remove any doubt of a cover up.


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## mudboat

andre3k I appreciate your service and wouldn't want your job regardless of pay.I do have curiosity about this case as it reminds me of the Waco shooting and not sure why(media coverage then poof its gone?).While you have way more experience on the law side of it in my youth I was on the other side of it in SW Houston around Hillcroft and W. Bellfort.after loosing a couple friends I got out and away from the area with that being said we all make mistakes even people wearing badges, I worked with a young guy that made it to HPD 18 mos later he shot and killed a 14yr old and it is sad for both families as 1 lost a child and 1 will live with that forever.Sorry for the long post but accidents in every job happen and there are ****ty people in every profession regardless of out come I pray for those wounded officers to get better and protect all of the first responders.


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## Whitebassfisher

Yes, stories are flying that it was meant to be Hardy instead of Harding.


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## StinkBait

Whitebassfisher said:


> Yes, stories are flying that it was meant to be Hardy instead of Harding.


Surely if this is the case then the firings need to start at the top with that dirtbag Acevedo for incompetency

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fishinguy

andre3k said:


> In regards to a no-knock warrant, the raid team does announce their presence. They just dont knock and wait for a response. Everyone is in clearly marked tac gear that reads POLICE. There are multiple marked patrol units with lights and siren on, and usually they are on the PA shouting....Houston Police.... Search Warrant!
> 
> If your house happens to get hit by one of these squads there will be no doubt on the entire block that your home is being raided by the police.
> 
> I can't speak for how other departments do it, but unless you're deaf and blind it won't be mistaken for a home invasion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I just go off of what I read, maybe he meant something else.

Acevedo said they were plainclothes narcotics cops serving the warrant, he also said they were all undercover officers.

Does plainclothes really mean clearly marked as Police?

There was a big write up in 2017, after that baby took a stun grenade to the face, about these raids by the New York Times. I thought this was an interesting portion of the article.



> The no-knock process often begins with unreliable informants and cursory investigations that produce affidavits signed by unquestioning low-level judges. It is not uncommon for the searches to yield only misdemeanor-level stashes, or to come up empty.
> 
> In some instances when officers have been killed, suspects with no history of violence, found with small quantities of drugs, have wound up facing capital murder charges, and possible death sentences.


It would appear that others have had problems knowing that it was the police kicking in their door.

And just to be clear, I think they were at the correct house or else they have a really big problem. I also think the police did their job. I just question whether or not this no knock process is the safest method to achieve their objective. It's pretty sad that 5 cops were shot and 2 people were killed, when it is possible it could have been avoided.


----------



## andre3k

fishinguy said:


> I just go off of what I read, maybe he meant something else.
> 
> Acevedo said they were plainclothes narcotics cops serving the warrant, he also said they were all undercover officers.
> 
> Does plainclothes really mean clearly marked as Police?


During a normal workday they wear regular street clothes like anyone else.

When a warrant is run they will wear their tactical gear that is clearly marked as Houston Police on the front and back.

Additionally, officers in marked police cars wearing regular police uniforms will also be at the location running lights and sirens during the entry. This provides the normal police presence most people are used to seeing, in addition the the narcotics guys which are in raid gear.

People get confused thinking that these warrants are run in street clothes with maybe a police jacket thrown on. You will never see that at HPD.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## fishinguy

andre3k said:


> During a normal workday they wear regular street clothes like anyone else.
> 
> When a warrant is run they will wear their tactical gear that is clearly marked as Houston Police on the front and back.
> 
> Additionally, officers in marked police cars wearing regular police uniforms will also be at the location running lights and sirens during the entry. This provides the normal police presence most people are used to seeing, in addition the the narcotics guys which are in raid gear.
> 
> People get confused thinking that these warrants are run in street clothes with maybe a police jacket thrown on. You will never see that at HPD.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Well then sounds like it just turned into a bad situation.

My honest opinion about how it went down is that they kicked the door in and entered the house. The dog immediately went after the cops so the cops shot the dog. I think the lady went to the dog and was shot and the guy came out of the back shooting. IMO I do not think the guy knew they were cops. I think dog caused the whole operation to go awry. I don't think someone is going to go all out rambo because they have a little weed and cocaine but then again people surprise me everyday.


----------



## crappie1

andre3k said:


> During a normal workday they wear regular street clothes like anyone else.
> 
> When a warrant is run they will wear their tactical gear that is clearly marked as Houston Police on the front and back.
> 
> Additionally, officers in marked police cars wearing regular police uniforms will also be at the location running lights and sirens during the entry. This provides the normal police presence most people are used to seeing, in addition the the narcotics guys which are in raid gear.
> 
> People get confused thinking that these warrants are run in street clothes with maybe a police jacket thrown on. You will never see that at HPD.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


WELL if it all goes down like that why the no-knock warrant No-knock warrant's are BS.


----------



## crappie1

fishinguy said:


> Well then sounds like it just turned into a bad situation.
> 
> My honest opinion about how it went down is that they kicked the door in and entered the house. The dog immediately went after the cops so the cops shot the dog. I think the lady went to the dog and was shot and the guy came out of the back shooting. IMO I do not think the guy knew they were cops. I think dog caused the whole operation to go awry. I don't think someone is going to go all out rambo because they have a little weed and cocaine but then again people surprise me everyday.


The no-knock cause things to go awry. Leo enters house scared of dogs shoots dog. Shots fired so everyone is on high alert.

Woman enters either confused or scared Leo shoots unarmed woman. At this point two murders happen. Dog and woman.

Man runs in either confused or just mad as hell thinking they are just going to kill us all so just starts shooting. All of this because of informant and a BS no-knock warrant

I also know that all people are not light sleepers and hear everything. 
No I'm not against any Leo's I just know they are not all cut from the same cloth.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

fishinguy said:


> ....
> My honest opinion about how it went down is that they kicked the door in and entered the house. The dog immediately went after the cops so the cops shot the dog. I think the lady went to the dog and was shot and the guy came out of the back shooting. IMO I do not think the guy knew they were cops. I think dog caused the whole operation to go awry. I don't think someone is going to go all out rambo because they have a little weed and cocaine but then again people surprise me everyday.


The above is believable. Although I believe the cops were at the right house, it is still very possible that the couple didn't know it was police coming in. Once a shot is fired (the dog) everything changes instantly. Can anyone hear after that shotgun blast inside?

I think the police did their job, but that any no-knock must be seriously reviewed before use. If there had not been a dog, it may have gone smoothly.


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## photofishin

mtbfreak said:


> The only ignorance is NOT questioning and just accepting things as they are or as you are TOLD.


Sorry but when you're the type to automatically assume the police are always at fault...YOU are what's wrong with America. Unlike you, I have a brain and use it. I don't, however spend all my time second guessing men and women in law enforcement and playing jr detective online, even after numerous law enforcement folks here show you how ignorant some of the comments here are. By the way, not that you'll read it because it'd dent your tinfoil hat- https://abc13.com/hpd-chief-acevedo-addresses-conspiracy-theorists/5114859/


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## jetbuilt

Andre3k...I believe youâ€™ve been LEO for as long as we have been interacting online (early MH days) and I wanted to take the time to state that you have almost always been professional and courteous in your communications, even when communications break down and many others fail to retain the ability to do the same in return. I donâ€™t know your specific line of work within your department, but I have to imagine that youâ€™re the type of LEO that most of us would like to see; level headed and professional while retaining the ability to consider other viewpoints/opinions/scenarios than those that you know. I appreciate your service to the communities that you serve. I have a couple of curiosities that maybe you can entertain, no offense intended. First, how many dogs does HPD shoot in a year? Second, are there any statistics on the type of ammunition that is fired upon you guys? I ask because, as a long time hunter/marksman/enthusiast I realize I need the right round for the task at hand, but I imagine the average criminal turd shooting at other humans carries their firearm loaded with cheap FMJ ammo. Is this often the case, or do these guys tactfully prepare in the same manner that you or I would? Thanks in advance for entertaining my thoughts, stay safe out there my friend!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## batmaninja

I think one of the issues here is that Art isnt following some of yalls advice about waiting for facts. Art and Joe fighting over the TV camera doesnt help either. 

Just because someone questions a narrative they are told, does not make them anti police, or anti LEO, and most certainly doenst make them pro heroin dealer/cop shooter. 5 cops, a dog, and 2 people were shot, so it is pretty fair to think there is some room for improvement or the current procedures should be examined. Shouting down anyone that doesnt agree with you, without providing any facts, really does nothing to further an argument.


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## Bonestock

batmaninja said:


> Just because someone questions a narrative they are told, does not make them anti police, or anti LEO, and most certainly doenst make them pro heroin dealer/cop shooter. 5 cops, a dog, and 2 people were shot, so it is pretty fair to think there is some room for improvement or the current procedures should be examined. Shouting down anyone that doesnt agree with you, without providing any facts, really does nothing to further an argument.


Well said.


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## jetbuilt

batmaninja said:


> I think one of the issues here is that Art isnt following some of yalls advice about waiting for facts. Art and Joe fighting over the TV camera doesnt help either.
> 
> Just because someone questions a narrative they are told, does not make them anti police, or anti LEO, and most certainly doenst make them pro heroin dealer/cop shooter. 5 cops, a dog, and 2 people were shot, so it is pretty fair to think there is some room for improvement or the current procedures should be examined. Shouting down anyone that doesnt agree with you, without providing any facts, really does nothing to further an argument.


Hey hey now...didnâ€™t I mention that this was no place for common sense in my earlier post??? Some people canâ€™t handle that level of critical thinking, itâ€™s brutally obvious in the posts seen all too often around here, and that lack of critical thinking is shown by a few on both sides of the argument for the record. This is just my humble opinion spewing forth here, but I believe it is a mark of higher intelligence to be able to objectively view all possible scenarios prior to forming an opinion on a subject. Every coin has two sides an an edge, polishing only one side of that coin while ignoring the other rarely makes much sense. I applaud your ability to think for yourself, it seems as if fewer and fewer are capable of exercising that ability these days.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StinkBait

batmaninja said:


> Just because someone questions a narrative they are told, does not make them anti police, or anti LEO, and most certainly doenst make them pro heroin dealer/cop shooter. 5 cops, a dog, and 2 people were shot, so it is pretty fair to think there is some room for improvement or the current procedures should be examined. Shouting down anyone that doesnt agree with you, without providing any facts, really does nothing to further an argument.


Exactly. Well said sir.


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## photofishin

batmaninja said:


> I think one of the issues here is that Art isnt following some of yalls advice about waiting for facts. Art and Joe fighting over the TV camera doesnt help either.
> 
> Just because someone questions a narrative they are told, does not make them anti police, or anti LEO, and most certainly doenst make them pro heroin dealer/cop shooter. 5 cops, a dog, and 2 people were shot, so it is pretty fair to think there is some room for improvement or the current procedures should be examined. Shouting down anyone that doesnt agree with you, without providing any facts, really does nothing to further an argument.


There's a difference between asking questions and pushing the anti police rhetoric some here have shown. Having an automatic "cops are corrupt" button on your keyboard just shows how stupid you are. (If you're one who automatically assumes the police are in the wrong) You don't like that...California will definitely take your tax dollars...but we don't need that nonsense here.


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## Whitebassfisher

Maybe, just maybe, 5 cops transported to the hospital is not a win for Houston. If it takes a little more time to wait and nab the criminals in a safer way and still not allow them to destroy evidence, it would be time and money well spent. I haven't studied criminology and law enforcement, but this was a very expensive raid.


It sounds like I did a turn around, but I am backing the police 100% here.


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## SeaOx 230C

photofishin said:


> There's a difference between asking questions and pushing the anti police rhetoric some here have shown. Having an automatic "cops are corrupt" button on your keyboard just shows how stupid you are. (If you're one who automatically assumes the police are in the wrong) You don't like that...California will definitely take your tax dollars...but we don't need that nonsense here.


There also those that always automatically believe that law enforcement is always right. There are many on this site that always argue on that side of the equation no matter what.

I can't count the number times I have read posts on here that say they could careless about who what when or where Police search, pull over, or otherwise detain people. And the reason they use is usually "well if you have nothing to hide what do you care".

Are they any different than those that you call "stupid" for questioning what Law Enforcement does?

I choose to look at all coins from all sides. I learned long ago that only looking at the side that my *bias* wants to be right can and has caused me to end up on the wrong side.

The first step in that is admitting that we all have *bias. *Then you can allow yourself to question and explore all sides openly and honestly.

I have not followed this one real close. However just on the surface I think everyone can admit something went wrong here. And an honest, open thorough review can help prevent this from happening again. Five cops are shot two people and the dog are dead. Something obviously went wrong here.


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## batmaninja

photofishin said:


> There's a difference between asking questions and pushing the anti police rhetoric some here have shown.


You keep quoting me, care to share an example of my anti police rhetoric, you know cite a fact to further you argument. The only person I questioned is the CI.

And maybe the guys in Blue at the top, fighting to get on TV. Art's initial statement about the "white substance", and Joe's "A botched drug raid on Monday left two residents dead and five Houston Police officers wounded in an incident Gamaldi framed as the result of anti-police rhetoric."

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the couple that shot at the cops didnt do it because of "anti police rhetoric".


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## photofishin

batmaninja said:


> You keep quoting me, care to share an example of my anti police rhetoric, you know cite a fact to further you argument. The only person I questioned is the CI.
> 
> And maybe the guys in Blue at the top, fighting to get on TV. Art's initial statement about the "white substance", and Joe's "A botched drug raid on Monday left two residents dead and five Houston Police officers wounded in an incident Gamaldi framed as the result of anti-police rhetoric."
> 
> I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the couple that shot at the cops didnt do it because of "anti police rhetoric".


Your whole premise is to question this whole raid as if you're some expert on law enforcement. You've done it numerous times in this thread. I'm not going to cut and paste the numerous times you've done it. Just look in the mirror and ask yourself...what qualifications do I have to second guess law enforcement? When you question the use of a CI, continuously push the rhetoric of the wrong house, question no knock warrants etc., it shows me you're just here to pound your chest and bash the police. I guarantee these cops didn't go to the house intending to get shot but they put their actual lives on the line daily and deserve respect for doing so....MUCH more than several people here seem to be giving them. Yes, that includes you mr jr detective.


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## photofishin

SeaOx 230C said:


> There also those that always automatically believe that law enforcement is always right. There are many on this site that always argue on that side of the equation no matter what.
> 
> I can't count the number times I have read posts on here that say they could careless about who what when or where Police search, pull over, or otherwise detain people. And the reason they use is usually "well if you have nothing to hide what do you care".
> 
> Are they any different than those that you call "stupid" for questioning what Law Enforcement does?
> 
> I choose to look at all coins from all sides. I learned long ago that only looking at the side that my *bias* wants to be right can and has caused me to end up on the wrong side.
> 
> The first step in that is admitting that we all have *bias. *Then you can allow yourself to question and explore all sides openly and honestly.
> 
> I have not followed this one real close. However just on the surface I think everyone can admit something went wrong here. And an honest, open thorough review can help prevent this from happening again. Five cops are shot two people and the dog are dead. Something obviously went wrong here.


Color me a glass is half full person who assumes our law enforcement does a thankless job of protecting our community. I DON'T automatically assume they're corrupt. I DON'T wear a tinfoil hat like several others in this thread seem to. If that bothers you...maybe you should look in the mirror.


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## batmaninja

photofishin said:


> This is the problem I see...we have a bunch of Internet Jr detectives pretending that they're holier than thou. Leave the investigation to the REAL detectives and STOP with the BS conspiracy theories. THAT is what's wrong with America...we have waaaaaaaay too much anti police rhetoric.


OK.

Loves to be in front of a TV camera, REAL detective, Houston Police Chief Art. Stated -

_"Immediately upon breaking the door the officers came under fire from one or more suspects in the house," said Acevedo, adding that the officers were *shot with semi-automatic pistols.*_

Newly inaugurated Jr detective here, will show you my badge if I need to, but a .357 wheel gun, aint a semi auto.



photofishin said:


> Just look in the mirror and ask yourself...what qualifications do I have to second guess law enforcement


Well for one, I can see some pretty blatant self inflicted wounds coming out of Arts mouf, that are directly contributing to conspiracy theories.


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## fishinguy

photofishin said:


> Color me a glass is half full person who assumes our law enforcement does a thankless job of protecting our community. I DON'T automatically assume they're corrupt. I DON'T wear a tinfoil hat like several others in this thread seem to. If that bothers you...maybe you should look in the mirror.


I think what bothers people is that you have 5 injured officers and 2 dead civilians. This really isn't a we object to the police type of argument, what most of us here are saying is that there is probably a better way to achieve the same result. I don't think is really anti-police to have the thought that there might have been a better way.

Is your opinion concluding that this operation was perfectly fine and they should in the future execute this type of operation in the same manner?


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## SeaOx 230C

photofishin said:


> Color me a glass is half full person who assumes our law enforcement does a thankless job of protecting our community. I DON'T automatically assume they're corrupt. I DON'T wear a tinfoil hat like several others in this thread seem to. If that bothers you...maybe you should look in the mirror.


This post confirms what I meant in my post that you quoted.

I am thankful for law enforcement as are many many people. I would say the vast majority are. That has absolutely nothing what so ever to do with questioning what happened.

Quit trying to guilt people into not questioning what goes on.

You state that If some one questions the Police and their actions that they "automatically" assume police corruption and/or wear a tinfoil hat. That is 100% your bias admit it own it. That is the same thing you are calling people stupid for doing.

Our Government was set up as it is for the express purpose of the Citizens to be able to always always question what any part of it is doing. And it was also set up to allow the Citizen the means to protect themselves from that very Government if needed.

Our Founders *never ever* intended for us to take anything the Government does at face value.

You have to admit that with 5 cops shot, two people and the dog dead, this was not a successful raid. Especially when you throw in the information that there was very little drugs there, no large sum of money, no big arsenal of weapons, no past history of violence from the suspects etc........

Something went wrong that is a fact that is beyond dispute.

It could be corruption, it could of been a mistake, or it could of been over confidence of the Cops, it could of been the first Cop afraid of the dog shoots it and the shoot out begins................

It needs to be and should be questioned openly and honestly......


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## BBCAT

Two bad guys and their pit bull down for good. Four LEO's shot and recovering, one other injured and recovering. These are the only things I assume to know at this time. The rest will have to wait and see. 
I also read a while back that there is risk of being run over if you are between Chief Acevedo and a TV camera.


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## CHARLIE

These type of raids have been going on for years and most do not end tragic like this one.There are plenty guidelines on how it has to be done. Its not a haphazard thing. Its a process that has to be done including obtaining evidence, Judges, planning, surviellance,preparing entry plans, entry team, back up, outside safety, etc. Many issue involved. its not a TV issue.Most raids end well but sometimes it hits the fan. Officers do it every day you just dont hear about them. I am sure this raid will be discussed many times . God bless our Police.

If you think Police enjoy shooting dogs or people you are on the wrong page.


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## mtbfreak

photofishin said:


> Sorry but when you're the type to automatically assume the police are always at fault...YOU are what's wrong with America. Unlike you, I have a brain and use it. I don't, however spend all my time second guessing men and women in law enforcement and playing jr detective online, even after numerous law enforcement folks here show you how ignorant some of the comments here are. By the way, not that you'll read it because it'd dent your tinfoil hat- https://abc13.com/hpd-chief-acevedo-addresses-conspiracy-theorists/5114859/


You have made up a lot of untrue statements about me. Quote one real instance of anything i have ever posted that would support your lies about me.


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## Lexy1

crappie said:


> The no-knock cause things to go awry. Leo enters house scared of dogs shoots dog. Shots fired so everyone is on high alert.
> 
> Woman enters either confused or scared Leo shoots unarmed woman. At this point two murders happen. Dog and woman.
> 
> Man runs in either confused or just mad as hell thinking they are just going to kill us all so just starts shooting. All of this because of informant and a BS no-knock warrant
> 
> I also know that all people are not light sleepers and hear everything.
> No I'm not against any Leo's I just know they are not all cut from the same cloth.


^^^ THIS

I'm always thankful for their services. My cousin is a PO. I have a bunch of friends are PO or SO. They have my high respect of their career choices and I'm definitely NOT an anti-police kinda guy.
But it does not mean I will agree to everything they do.

A bad raid "like this" is always a good opening for some serious questions with some honest answers. 
1) Most of us already knew (from TV, Movie, and even real life) that Police and/or Sheriff Department does a lot of "COVERUPs" to shut public voices about their "maybe once in a while" mistake. 
2) We also know that there are lots of Police Departments were investigated by the FBI about their business operations or codes of conducts.


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## batmaninja

Would it change anything for yall if the shooter was disabled? And still managed to shoot 4 people with a 6 shot gun?


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## HoustonKid

No friendly fire involved. One officer had his jaw shattered, chin blown off and lost half his tongue. He has a long road to recovery. The other officer was shot in the neck and the C7. He is currently paralyzed from the neck down and it is unknown if he will make a full recovery or not. 

You bunch of aholes should stop making up BS conspiracy theories and wish these officers well after doing their job and doing it properly.

I know I said I was out but the level of stupidity is really amazing in here.

The men who saved the officers after being shot are heroes. Wait until you hear the full story. 

Heroes. Absolute heroes.


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## Profish00

HoustonKid said:


> No friendly fire involved. One officer had his jaw shattered, chin blown off and lost half his tongue. He has a long road to recovery. The other officer was shot in the neck and the C7. He is currently paralyzed from the neck down and it is unknown if he will make a full recovery or not.
> 
> You bunch of aholes should stop making up BS conspiracy theories and wish these officers well after doing their job and doing it properly.
> 
> I know I said I was out but the level of stupidity is really amazing in here.
> 
> The men who saved the officers after being shot are heroes. Wait until you hear the full story.
> 
> Heroes. Absolute heroes.


All for a drug bust? was it worth it really.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Category6

They might be heroes, but as a group overall they were terrible shots under duress. Tuttle had a six shot revolver and managed to shoot four cops, not one cop four times or two cops two times each, but FOUR DIFFERENT COPS. Theyâ€™re lucky he didnâ€™t have a semi auto or a long gun, prayers wouldnâ€™t have sufficed. I definitely question this type of warrant, sorry.


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## Whitebassfisher

HoustonKid said:


> No friendly fire involved. One officer had his jaw shattered, chin blown off and lost half his tongue. He has a long road to recovery. The other officer was shot in the neck and the C7. He is currently paralyzed from the neck down and it is unknown if he will make a full recovery or not.....


Five injured total, 4 by gunfire. One was shot in the shoulder. Where on the body was the 4th cop hit?


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## SeaOx 230C

HoustonKid said:


> No friendly fire involved. One officer had his jaw shattered, chin blown off and lost half his tongue. He has a long road to recovery. The other officer was shot in the neck and the C7. He is currently paralyzed from the neck down and it is unknown if he will make a full recovery or not.
> 
> You bunch of aholes should stop making up BS conspiracy theories and wish these officers well after doing their job and doing it properly.
> 
> I know I said I was out but the level of stupidity is really amazing in here.
> 
> The men who saved the officers after being shot are heroes. Wait until you hear the full story.
> 
> Heroes. Absolute heroes.


I hope.you do realize that it is.possible to pray for some ones recovery, and truly appreciate their service AND question the outcome and\or the reason they where in the situation in the first place.

It is also right and proper to pray for the restoration and salvation of the bad guy's too.

All of us human need lifting up.

You assume that just because it is being questioned folks are not sympathetic to the hurt and suffering taking place.

You are absolutely wrong. I can't speak for everyone but I do believe you are absolutely wrong on that front. I know you are when it comes to me.

I will include you in prayer. I know for those that do this for a living it must really make you think when things like this happen. We consider those involved but what about those left behind thinking "that could of been me".

Maybe with open honest questioning and review of.what went wrong this doesn't happen again. And no officer is hurt in a raid. That would be my goal.

Thank you for your service Sir!!!!!!!!!


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## HoustonKid

Category5 said:


> They might be heroes, but as a group overall they were terrible shots under duress. Tuttle had a six shot revolver and managed to shoot four cops, not one cop four times or two cops two times each, but FOUR DIFFERENT COPS. Theyâ€™re lucky he didnâ€™t have a semi auto or a long gun, prayers wouldnâ€™t have sufficed. I definitely question this type of warrant, sorry.


Let me ask you this. Do you know how it all went down once entry was made? If you knew, you could actually make an educated statement instead of making statements based on what you "think" and all of the internet detective work you have done.

Like I said, once you know all of the facts and details, you will understand how a man with a six shot hits four officers. At first I was asking how the hell does one guy shoot 4 officers? He must have had a black gun. Well, that's not the case here.

It's amazing what a highly motivated individual can do with the tools they have.


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## Whitebassfisher

Of the 4 shot, one in neck, one in face, one in shoulder, but where was the 4th?


It seems Tuttle was trying head shots?


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## Category6

Would there be body cam video during a no knock warrant?


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## HoustonKid

Category5 said:


> Would there be body cam video during a no knock warrant?


Not necessarily. Only required for patrol officers. Likely no cameras on entry for the most part. I cannot say if there were any being worn on this raid.

The other officers shot were shot in the leg and arm. They are going to be fine. The 5th officer blew his knee and quad out dragging the first officer shot in the face out of the house.


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## Won Hunglo

Category5 said:


> Would there be body cam video during a no knock warrant?


No. Body cameras are very damaging to the state's case in no knocks raids. They removed them before the raid. Also, all video from the house raided and the neighboring homes has been seized. The whole problem is people on the jury won't like what they see and it will make it hard to convict. Best to leave the cameras in the cruisers during no knock raids, just as it was done this time.


----------



## HoustonKid

SeaOx 230C said:


> I hope.you do realize that it is.possible to pray for some ones recovery, and truly appreciate their service AND question the outcome and\or the reason they where in the situation in the first place.
> 
> It is also right and proper to pray for the restoration and salvation of the bad guy's too.
> 
> All of us human need lifting up.
> 
> You assume that just because it is being questioned folks are not sympathetic to the hurt and suffering taking place.
> 
> You are absolutely wrong. I can't speak for everyone but I do believe you are absolutely wrong on that front. I know you are when it comes to me.
> 
> I will include you in prayer. I know for those that do this for a living it must really make you think when things like this happen. We consider those involved but what about those left behind thinking "that could of been me".
> 
> Maybe with open honest questioning and review of.what went wrong this doesn't happen again. And no officer is hurt in a raid. That would be my goal.
> 
> Thank you for your service Sir!!!!!!!!!


We will have to agree to disagree. There are aholes on here that will say the cops were wrong period and may even take joy in their suffering. It is healthy to discuss the known facts in an intelligent manor but to make stuff up and believe conspiracy theories based on nothing, thatâ€™s a problem.

If someone tries to kill one of mine, you get zero sympathy from me much less prayers. I have to live with that and have zero issues sleeping at night.

Thanks for the thanks.


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## boom!

Just like arguing on the side of the road during a traffic stop, there is a time and a place. While I believe that these incidents should be discussed and investigated, I think that doing so before friends can grieve and bury their dead is in extremely poor taste. JMO


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## ibtbone

HoustonKid said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. There are aholes on here that will say the cops were wrong period and may even take joy in their suffering. It is healthy to discuss the known facts in an intelligent manor but to make stuff up and believe conspiracy theories based on nothing, thatâ€™s a problem.
> 
> If someone tries to kill one of mine, you get zero sympathy from me much less prayers. I have to live with that and have zero issues sleeping at night.
> 
> Thanks for the thanks.


Well spoken 
Many thanks to you and all of the other LEOâ€™s who serve.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Whitebassfisher

What did the white powder turn out being?


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## HoustonKid

â€œPolice showed up in tactical gear.â€

Conspiracy fans read the article.

https://m.chron.com/houston/article/Powder-found-in-police-raid-identified-13578839.php


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## dwilliams35

HoustonKid said:


> â€œPolice showed up in tactical gear.â€
> 
> Conspiracy fans read the article.
> 
> https://m.chron.com/houston/article/Powder-found-in-police-raid-identified-13578839.php


. Doesnâ€™t really say much we didnâ€™t already know...


----------



## HoustonKid

Did you read it all. They were in tactical gear. The old man snuck out the back and then opened fire. Cocaine and marijuana found. I do believe the conspiracy folks left all of that out in their internet detective work.

Show me where any of the negative Nancyâ€™s mentioned any of that in their conspiracy.


----------



## BretE

HoustonKid said:


> Did you read it all. They were in tactical gear. The old man snuck out the back and then opened fire. Cocaine and marijuana found. I do believe the conspiracy folks left all of that out in their internet detective work.


Hey bud, can you get off the â€œold manâ€ stuff....the guy was my age and I ainâ€™t old!.....:headknock


----------



## HoustonKid

BretE said:


> Hey bud, can you get off the â€œold manâ€ stuff....the guy was my age and I ainâ€™t old!.....:headknock[/QUOTES E]
> 
> Heck I know. Iâ€™m only a few years away myself.


----------



## BretE

HoustonKid said:


> BretE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey bud, can you get off the â€œold manâ€ stuff....the guy was my age and I ainâ€™t old!.....:headknock[/QUOTES E]
> 
> Heck I know. Iâ€™m only a few years away myself.
> 
> 
> 
> :cheers:
Click to expand...


----------



## dwilliams35

HoustonKid said:


> Did you read it all. They were in tactical gear. The old man snuck out the back and then opened fire. Cocaine and marijuana found. I do believe the conspiracy folks left all of that out in their internet detective work.
> 
> Show me where any of the negative Nancyâ€™s mentioned any of that in their conspiracy.


Yes, I read it, three times, trying to figure out what grand and glorious revelation came forth from that story. About all I can see is that it went from â€œunnamed white powderâ€ to â€œcocaineâ€.... so we can scratch the little Debbie powdered donuts off the list..

If nothing else, guys doing dynamic entry need to do a little work on grasping one simple fact: theyâ€™re the only ones with ear protection. Throw a flash bang, (or shoot the dog) and everybody else in the house canâ€™t hear them yelling out â€œPolice! Yada yada yadaâ€. Their ears are ringing. Somebody just shot off an AR in their freakin living room, for peteâ€™s sake. Nobody is going to hear diddly squat for about five minutes or so. 
Also, lose the camo. If you need a sniper, he can wear it, just to get into position undetected before the entry. Everybody else, youâ€™re just wearing it to look like a military badass, and black-text â€œpoliceâ€ tags just donâ€™t show up worth a dang on digital camo. Or any camo, for that matter. Wear black if you want, we know you enjoy it. Just make sure thereâ€™s yellow â€œPOLICEâ€ imprinted in 5â€ -6â€ letters on the back AND the front. There seems to be a real lack of BIG identifying text on the FRONT of raid jackets.

Guy comes in my door, lets loose a couple of rounds out an SBR shooting my Labrador, I canâ€™t hear a dang thing anymore (like I could hear half of this to begin with), and I canâ€™t see anything that really jumps out at me for ID, the risk is pretty high that my thought process will not necessarily go to â€œpolice raid, put your hands upâ€, and may very well just go to â€œyahoos in a surplus BDUâ€™s with no readily visible identifying marks on the chest is into home-invading my ***, Iâ€™m going to bust some caps. Maybe if I sneak out the back and go around the front I can get a better angle on them before they get to the wifeâ€. Logical assumption, given youâ€™re in SE Houston, and itâ€™ll take ten minutes for the cops to get here if I call 911.. looks like youâ€™re on your own here.

Yes, wild-*** speculation. Of course at this point, so is yours. So is anybodyâ€™s. So is the twenty other wild speculation scenarios I could come up with, up to and including this guy being a potential prosecution witness in the El Chapo trial, who got set up to get killed in an otherwise-legit police raid before he could testify. The official police version isnâ€™t out yet, and the official homeowner/perp version died with him. Who knows at this point. The simple fact that we got to this point to begin with says something didnâ€™t work right. My money is on something well, well beyond the guys that actually got hurt here or anything that happened inside that house....


----------



## ralph7

DA REEL DADDY said:


> A quick Google on opioid deaths in 2017 just in Texas had the following race ethenticy statistics;
> 
> White non hispanic 1,014
> Black non hispanic 121
> Hispanic 307
> 
> The tied has really turned from the 70s where the Hispanic culture was the main consumer of heroin. Now with this opioid epidemic (which heroin and Fentanyl is) the white race is soaring in deaths.
> 
> The Devil's Brew. Ask an addict or an addict's love ones. They will tell you the truth, that it is darkness.


I would bet that the bulk of Caucasian opioid deaths was from prescription drugs.


----------



## DA REEL DADDY

ralph7 said:


> I would bet that the bulk of Caucasian opioid deaths was from prescription drugs.


You maybe right, but I think Fentanyl has helped boost a lot of deaths. i hear it only takes a smear to shut down you body's system. That's what Prince overdose from.


----------



## ralph7

DA REEL DADDY said:


> You maybe right, but I think Fentanyl has helped boost a lot of deaths. i hear it only takes a smear to shut down you body's system. That's what Prince overdose from.


Yes, they make fake prescription pills that look pharmaceutical and contain Fentanyl that have killed.


----------



## mudboat

HoustonKid said:


> â€œPolice showed up in tactical gear.â€
> 
> Conspiracy fans read the article.
> 
> https://m.chron.com/houston/article/Powder-found-in-police-raid-identified-13578839.php


First of all prayers for the officers for a full and speedy recovery.After reading the article its what most thought happened,they kicked in door shot dog and wife that puts husband in kill intruder mode luckily for the police he wasn't armed better.Hats off to Garmaldi he had the stones to say what everyone was thinking(except the POS Alcevado) in the end the casualties and the injured officers appears to be over the top for what looks like a small time dealer.I do have a question and I am not sure you can give the answer though,the warrant was issued less than 6hrs before raid I would have thought much more planning went into something of this magnitude.Have a good day hope this post doesn't come off as anti-police because that certainly isn't my intention.


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## Bocephus

Whatever happened that night obviously ended up being a horrible incident.

On internet forums such as this, people are going to speculate about what they "think" happened, or what they "think" should have been done. That's a huge part of what forums are for...people discussing, and giving opinions.

People still have the right in America to voice their opinions....for now anyway.


----------



## photofishin

Bocephus said:


> Whatever happened that night obviously ended up being a horrible incident.
> 
> People still have the right in America to voice their opinions....for now anyway.


agreed...however when someone comes in here playing jr detective with the sole intention of making law enforcement as the automatic bad guys, it really reflects on the stupidity that seems to exist in our society. Much of the nonsense has been debunked, such as the "wrong house theory" or the "they didn't find drugs theory" etc. MY suggestion is that unless you have REAL pertinent information about this case coupled with relevant experience in law enforcement, your opinions are just that...opinions and worth the total amount it cost you to post them...worthless.
I will say that HPD will learn from this effort and something positive may come from this knowledge, however if you (the collective "you") are one of those anti police idiots who automatically assumes corruption etc., frankly YOU are the problem in this society.


----------



## Bocephus

photofishin said:


> however if you (the collective "you") are one of those anti police idiots who automatically assumes corruption etc., frankly YOU are the problem in this society.


You're "preaching to the Choir" with me.

I support our LEO's and am a Life Member of the 100 Club, and give generously to the Survivor's Fund every time there is a tragic loss. I'm very thankful we have Men & Women that are willing to serve & protect.

My point is this is an internet forum and people are going to give opinions pro, and con. Unfortunately there are lot's of 2Coolers that are Cop haters...I still don't understand that mentality.


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## Whitebassfisher

Sometimes I wonder about what is _not_ said as much as I do what _is_ said.

What I would like to hear a HPD spokesman say: "The narc who went with the informant and bought drugs at the house is one of the narcs who executed the warrant, same narc at same house on different days."

This seems like a reasonable request, and would really put my mind at ease about this whole thing.


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## LineBurner

Yes, the Affiant of the search warrant was there. He is among the shot.


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## BretE

LineBurner said:


> Yes, the Affiant of the search warrant was there. He is among the shot.


Affiant......good one, had to look that one up....


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## Category6

Iâ€™m not really thinking too many on here are cop haters guys. I think many, like me, are questioning the higher ups who orchestrated such a botched raid that resulted in four officers shot and two people killed. I question the decision to go at the time they did versus say 4:00 AM, as Iâ€™m sure they are now as well.


----------



## Lexy1

Category5 said:


> Iâ€™m not really thinking too many on here are cop haters guys. I think many, like me, are questioning the higher ups who orchestrated such a botched raid that resulted in four officers shot and two people killed. I question the decision to go at the time they did versus say 4:00 AM, as Iâ€™m sure they are now as well.


You are correct. As matter of fact, I did not see anyone posting in this thread is "the cop hater" (call the name out if you like).
Personally, "cop hater" is usually the framed word for anyone question the actions of the cops.

This is the best part of America. We have the right to question our authority and leader.

The bad part is, we can question all day long but can we get the true answer?


----------



## photofishin

Lexy1 said:


> The bad part is, we can question all day long but can we get the true answer?


my assertion is that regardless of the answers the public gets straight from the horse's mouth, it seems that answer is not good enough. This thread has been fraught with tin foil hat types who have ZERO experience in law enforcement making all sorts of asinine statements, such as "they should do away with no knock warrants", "this was the wrong house", that there's "no way a revolver can shoot 4 people". This reminds me of the stupidity of the Trayvon Martin case, where the general public automatically assumed his innocence when in fact he caused his own death. Let the REAL facts come out. Let the REAL detectives investigate. Stop the rhetoric.


----------



## Category6

photofishin said:


> my assertion is that regardless of the answers the public gets straight from the horse's mouth, it seems that answer is not good enough. This thread has been fraught with tin foil hat types who have ZERO experience in law enforcement making all sorts of asinine statements, such as "they should do away with no knock warrants", "this was the wrong house", that there's "no way a revolver can shoot 4 people". This reminds me of the stupidity of the Trayvon Martin case, where the general public automatically assumed his innocence when in fact he caused his own death. Let the REAL facts come out. Let the REAL detectives investigate. Stop the rhetoric.


Defensive much? Youâ€™re talking out of your ***, I never said anything close to â€œthereâ€™s no way a revolver can shoot 4 peopleâ€


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## Duckchasr

Unless it is a hostage situation I don't believe in no knock warrants. I hope this event will cause the higher ups to address that policy. If it wasn't for law enforcement we would be responsible for having to shoot these thugs that rape and pillage our society.


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## SeaOx 230C

photofishin said:


> my assertion is that regardless of the answers the public gets straight from the horse's mouth, it seems that answer is not good enough. This thread has been fraught with tin foil hat types who have ZERO experience in law enforcement making all sorts of asinine statements, such as "they should do away wit no knock warrants", "this was the wrong house", that there's "no way a revolver can shoot 4 people". This reminds me of the stupidity of the Trayvon Martin case, where the general public automatically assumed his innocence when in fact he caused his own death. Let the REAL facts come out. Let the REAL detectives investigate. Stop the rhetoric.


Ah I see we should be happy with what the"Horses mouth" says because we all know what the "horse" tell us is always the 100% unvarnished truth. We should not question what the Government or Law enforcement tells us we just accept what we are told. 

You bring up the Travon Martin case. Do you realize you are doing the same thing that those that assumed his innocence did to those that said something ain't right here? The President of the United States himself told us that Travon was the victim. Some of us said no I don't think so â€œHorseâ€. In the eyes of the â€œhorseâ€ those that insisted something ainâ€™t right here were racists. They were attacked for being racist. 

 How is that different than you saying those that have a different thought on what may have happened and express that though are "stupid", "worthless opinions", "anti- police, "cop haters" etc...? 

What if in the Travon deal people accepted the story that the Pres. and the media etcâ€¦. told? 

Now in the end Travon was found to be the aggressor. And in this case it may be that nothing went wrong everything was peachy. But doesthat really matter? The premise is the same. It ain't good to suppress peopleâ€™sthoughts and opinions with bullying, insults etc...

 It sure ain't healthy to our Constitutional Republic tosimply believe whatever LE and Government tells us. 

Now do those thoughts and opinions at times get a bit out there in La La land well yes they do. 

I get tired of being labeled racist for questioning anything a minority does. I get tired of the other extreme throwing out the Cop Hater label any time the Police are questioned. I get tired of being labeled as anti-environment because I donâ€™t buy into all the Climate Change garbage. 

If you can't change peoples opinion with the validity of your thoughts ideals and opinions well.... insulting them and intimidating them into silence seems to be the goto alternative these days.
 
Can a person no longer express their thoughts and opinions in this Country?

I have not read one thing in these posts that screamed â€œCOP HATERâ€. I have read a bunch of opinions as to what might have happened in an event that obviously went terribly wrong.

See you fellas on the next thread this one is about done.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

Photo you seem to be getting way too defensive for what has actually been said. Although I wasn't there during the execution of the warrant, I believe 4 HPD employees were shot. No matter what measurement tool you use, 4 cops getting shot is not acceptable. Obviously the situation did not go down text book perfectly. So those that point out the fact it went badly hate cops? Those that ask questions in an attempt to keep more cops from being shot in the future hate cops? If you are being so close minded that you are willing to accept 4 cops being shot as being okay, then you have a problem, not us.


I see nothing wrong with asking .... What did we do right? What did we do wrong? Should we adjust how we handle a similar situation in the future?


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## photofishin

There's a clear difference between asking simple questions and continuing to push debunked rhetoric. Tin foil hats...just sayin.


----------



## photofishin

Whitebassfisher said:


> Photo you seem to be getting way too defensive for what has actually been said. Although I wasn't there during the execution of the warrant, I believe 4 HPD employees were shot. No matter what measurement tool you use, 4 cops getting shot is not acceptable. Obviously the situation did not go down text book perfectly. So those that point out the fact it went badly hate cops? Those that ask questions in an attempt to keep more cops from being shot in the future hate cops? If you are being so close minded that you are willing to accept 4 cops being shot as being okay, then you have a problem, not us.


Nice twist of words there. I'd suggest re-reading the comments versus spouting nonsense. My comments stand. There are several here who automatically have assumed the police were in the wrong, that they had the wrong house, that the couple inside were simply citizens just enjoying the comfort of their own home when the cops came in and unconstitutionally executed them. If you're one of those people, then look in the mirror towards the source of the problem. If you're not, then it's YOU who is being defensive.


----------



## ReedA1691

Can't wait for the toxicology reports on those two


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## Whitebassfisher

ReedA1691 said:


> Can't wait for the toxicology reports on those two


It would be very interesting if they find heroin in the toxicology, but if they are clean as a whistle doesn't mean they were innocent.


----------



## doyou

ReedA1691 said:


> Can't wait for the toxicology reports on those two


what relevance would this have ?


----------



## doyou

Whitebassfisher said:


> It would be very interesting if they find heroin in the toxicology, but if they are clean as a whistle doesn't mean they were innocent.


This mindset is pinning them as the guilty bad guy.

"It would be very interesting if they find heroin in the toxicology" , so that everyones assumptions about them being bad guys could but validated

BUT !!!

"if they are clean as a whistle doesn't mean they were innocent" , but if not and it doesn't go with my agenda and thoughts lets have a backup plan and say they still aren't innocent if it comes back clean

either way they are the bad guys to you


----------



## Category6

Now Art Acevedo is championing gun control as the answer, go figure! Iâ€™m quite certain stricter gun laws would have prevented this. Only cops and military should have access to guns I suppose, because itâ€™s not as if the 2nd amendment was specifically crafted to prevent a tyrannical government, right Chief? Do your job better, stay off camera under Kim Oggâ€™s desk bud.


----------



## doyou

I know its from the side and a highly debated topic , but why would you not wear body cams on raids and things of this nature ?


Could be internet hearsay , but didn't they take security footage from both the home and a neighbors? Why not just give that to an independent agency for review and get everyone off their case with the facts from video ?


----------



## Whitebassfisher

doyou said:


> This mindset is pinning them as the guilty bad guy.
> 
> "It would be very interesting if they find heroin in the toxicology" , so that everyones assumptions about them being bad guys could but validated
> 
> BUT !!!
> 
> "if they are clean as a whistle doesn't mean they were innocent" , but if not and it doesn't go with my agenda and thoughts lets have a backup plan and say they still aren't innocent if it comes back clean
> 
> either way they are the bad guys to you


Man, I am having to fight both sides here. :help:

The warrant had to do with possessing and dealing heroin, not using drugs or possessing marijuana or cocaine. If a narc observed the informant go in and buy heroin, and the same narc was at the same house during the raid, then the cops are clear of wrongdoing IMO. Sure, it went down badly, and hopefully everyone learned something. The descriptive explanation of what happened to 2 of the cops by one of 2Cool's LEO members in this thread is absolutely horrible.

I believe it is human nature to CYA when it hits the fan, whether police or not. But overall it doesn't appear the cops did anything wrong.


----------



## batmaninja

I still dont get the CI's role.

_The informant was tapped to make the buy after police received a tip that the man inside â€" described only as a 55-year-old man about 5'11 and weighing about 180 pounds â€" was selling narcotics from the wood-frame home in southeast Houston._

He just walked up the house and said, hi I would like to buy some heroin please, to complete strangers that he suspected were dealers (and were armed). All it took was an anonymous "tip" for the police to set these things in motion. And then most of what he saw in the house, wasn't there the next day during the raid.

Did the CI get a drug test? Get paid? Keep the drugs he bought?

Edit after WBs post. The warent was for "black tar heroin" but the CI saw brown powder, which I would guess would be "brown powder heroin"?


----------



## mtbfreak

batmaninja said:


> Edit after WBs post. The warent was for "black tar heroin" but the CI saw *brown powder*, which I would guess would be "brown powder heroin"?


brown sugar, he was making cookies for his grand kids.


----------



## ralph7

batmaninja said:


> I still dont get the CI's role.
> 
> He just walked up the house and said, hi I would like to buy some heroin please, to complete strangers that he suspected were dealers (and were armed).


I too, couldn't figure this one out.


----------



## SeaOx 230C

Maybe I just don't know nothing about how drug dealing and LE works, but it seemed odd to me too.




So this informant knew the people in the house? Or did the informant knock on a total strangers door and get allowed in to buy the heroin?


----------



## Whitebassfisher

SeaOx 230C said:


> Maybe I just don't know nothing about how drug dealing and LE works, but it seemed odd to me too.
> 
> So this informant knew the people in the house? Or did the informant knock on a total strangers door and get allowed in to buy the heroin?


I too wondered about this. I _assumed_ (I know) that the informant lifestyle is an extremely dangerous undercover type thing which would likely end in death by dealers or other criminals.

I would like someone (maybe a real detective vs a JR detective) to let us know.


----------



## photofishin

SeaOx 230C said:


> Maybe I just don't know nothing about how drug dealing and LE works, but it seemed odd to me too.
> 
> So this informant knew the people in the house? Or did the informant knock on a total strangers door and get allowed in to buy the heroin?


lets consider some common sense. The drug world is made up of super paranoid individuals. There's ZERO way a CI could just knock on the door and buy heroin unless he knew the guy or had VERY good references. The police already said they had purchased heroin there before. Let's not dispute facts already presented and verified. The fact they didn't find actual heroin that day is irrelevant as they did find cocaine and marijuana and both suspects fired on the police and are dead. (also facts) I'm sure the police don't go into raids like this hoping to get shot. Factually they do everything to maximize their ability to enforce the law without anyone getting killed but sometimes encounter dangerous criminals that put their lives in danger. Chances are that you don't have such a job. You sit safely behind a computer and pontificate about how "you'd do the job if it were you".


----------



## batmaninja

photofishin said:


> There's ZERO way a CI could just knock on the door and buy heroin unless he knew the guy or had VERY good references.


Sooooo, the CI was a druggie then?



photofishin said:


> The police already said *they *had purchased heroin there before.


Is "they" the police or a CI?


----------



## mtbfreak

photofishin said:


> lets consider some common sense. The drug world is made up of super paranoid individuals. *There's ZERO *way a CI could just knock on the door and buy heroin unless he knew the guy or had VERY good references. .


This statement isnt based in any reality real or imagined.


----------



## doyou

photofishin said:


> and both suspects fired on the police and are dead. (also facts)


but wait i thought the "facts" were she was reaching for the gun ... So are you telling me you have all the "facts" and what was told to the public wasn't ?

Not trolling , but can you let me know where I can read on the facts of rounds fired etc, you seem to have all the inside information


----------



## Whitebassfisher

photofishin said:


> lets consider some common sense. The drug world is made up of super paranoid individuals. There's ZERO way a CI could just knock on the door and buy heroin unless he knew the guy or had VERY good references. The police already said they had purchased heroin there before. Let's not dispute facts already presented and verified. The fact they didn't find actual heroin that day is irrelevant as they did find cocaine and marijuana and _*both suspects fired on the police *_and are dead. (also facts) I'm sure the police don't go into raids like this hoping to get shot. Factually they do everything to maximize their ability to enforce the law without anyone getting killed but sometimes encounter dangerous criminals that put their lives in danger. Chances are that you don't have such a job. You sit safely behind a computer and pontificate about how "you'd do the job if it were you".


Are you actually trying to make it appear that all LEO's are short tempered arse holes with a superiority complex? I will just go with you are one of the few bad apples in every group.

The above bold is a good reason we Jr detectives have to keep asking questions. You say it is fact she fired on police, whereas before I read that she was attempting to grab a cops gun so was killed. The end result is the same, but you are putting out a different story than what we have been told is "fact."


----------



## SeaOx 230C

photofishin said:


> lets consider some common sense. The drug world is made up of super paranoid individuals. There's ZERO way a CI could just knock on the door and buy heroin unless he knew the guy or had VERY good references. The police already said they had purchased heroin there before. Let's not dispute facts already presented and verified. The fact they didn't find actual heroin that day is irrelevant as they did find cocaine and marijuana and both suspects fired on the police and are dead. (also facts) I'm sure the police don't go into raids like this hoping to get shot. Factually they do everything to maximize their ability to enforce the law without anyone getting killed but sometimes encounter dangerous criminals that put their lives in danger. Chances are that you don't have such a job. You sit safely behind a computer and pontificate about how "you'd do the job if it were you".


You see this is where you get off the tracks. Show me where I posted anything to *"pontificate about how "you'd do the job if it were you". *

Just because a person wonders about that and wonders what it does or does not mean, does not mean they hate the cops. Get off of that would you.

And as for dangerous jobs my occupation is #10 on the list of Top 25 most dangerous. Police and Sherriff Patrol Officers are #14. Narcotics Officers are not on the list of the Top 25.

Now I am no way saying they don't have very dangerous jobs so don't even go there. I am simply pointing out to you that lots of folks have very very dangerous jobs. I have been directly involved in an industrial explosion and was burned for my efforts. I know people that are wounded and scared for life both physically and mentally because of work place incidents. So I may know a little a bit about what it means to not know for sure what is going to happen on any given day at work.

It could be routine it could a fiery inferno. It's our job it's what we do.


----------



## photofishin

mtbfreak said:


> This statement isnt based in any reality real or imagined.


lets just say that I'm clean for nearly 33 years and I know for a fact that the drug world isn't made up of lots of well intentioned super intelligent people. MOST if not all are super paranoid, especially anyone who'd sell hard drugs like heroin. So, my statement has more merit than you may think as I have personal experience far beyond what you likely do.


----------



## photofishin

Whitebassfisher said:


> Are you actually trying to make it appear that all LEO's are short tempered arse holes with a superiority complex? I will just go with you are one of the few bad apples in every group.


you seriously have a reading comprehension issue and a fantastic ability to twist people's words.


----------



## mtbfreak

photofishin said:


> lets just say that I'm clean for nearly 33 years and I know for a fact that the drug world isn't made up of lots of well intentioned super intelligent people. MOST if not all are super paranoid, especially anyone who'd sell hard drugs like heroin. So, my statement has more merit than you may think as I have personal experience far beyond what you likely do.


Congratulations on your sobriety. Both the unintelligent and paranoid statements are fair but this statement isnt -"There's ZERO way a CI could just knock on the door and buy heroin unless he knew the guy or had VERY good references."
If you know a house where they are selling drugs you dont have to know a soul in there and you will be able to buy. Yes even that is not an absolute and I'm not claiming it is but saying there is ZERO chance a person has to know someone in the house isnt truth.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

photofishin said:


> reading some of the anti police comments on social media really makes me mad. I seriously wish we could round up the anti police idiots and send them to Syria.


Your post # 6 on this thread. No one on 2Cool had said anything bad about LEO's in this thread at that point, but you wanted to send people to Syria. By your own admission you are mad, and we all know that people don't think clearly when mad.

Calm down man! You are making all your hard working brothers look terrible.


----------



## SeaOx 230C

mtbfreak said:


> Congratulations on your sobriety. Both the unintelligent and paranoid statements are fair but this statement isnt -"There's ZERO way a CI could just knock on the door and buy heroin unless he knew the guy or had VERY good references."
> If you know a house where they are selling drugs you dont have to know a soul in there and you will be able to buy. Yes even that is not an absolute and I'm not claiming it is but saying there is ZERO chance a person has to know someone in the house isnt truth.


Correct.

There are drug houses, drug dens, dope house, crack house etc..... and then there are people that sell a little drugs.

A so called drug house can be pretty much open to any customer that walks up.

A person that sells a bit in order to make a little side money or support there own habit typically only sell to those that they know.


----------



## Imtheman

photofishin said:


> my assertion is that regardless of the answers the public gets straight from the horse's mouth, it seems that answer is not good enough. This thread has been fraught with tin foil hat types who have ZERO experience in law enforcement making all sorts of asinine statements, such as "they should do away with no knock warrants", "this was the wrong house", that there's "no way a revolver can shoot 4 people". This reminds me of the stupidity of the Trayvon Martin case, where the general public automatically assumed his innocence when in fact he caused his own death. Let the REAL facts come out. Let the REAL detectives investigate. Stop the rhetoric.


And if there is no imminent threat, why should they ever do a no-knock warrant?

You kick in a door, which they did.

Fire your weapon, which they did, at the dog.

You can NOT reasonably think you will de-escalate the situation.

In fact, it is almost guaranteed you will ESCALATE the situation.

If you believe the police, they knew there were guns in the home. and it is reasonable to believe they knew they had a dog in the home. ANY pertinent person would say that it would be best to make the arrest away from the known guns and dog to get a peaceful arrest.

If you can't acknowledge that, really you aren't in a place were we can reasonably debate anything. and will be no help in holding higher-ups accountable, allowing these tragedies to continue, instead of aid in finding a honest resolution.


----------



## HoustonKid

Going on record with the running of the warrant is what it is. I stand by everything I said about the running of the warrant. The story of how they got there is a topic Iâ€™m not touching. 

Buckle your seat belts boys and girls.


----------



## CHARLIE

Normally a dealer WILL NOT sell to an unknown without some intro.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

HoustonKid said:


> Going on record with the running of the warrant is what it is. I stand by everything I said about the running of the warrant. _The story of how they got there is a topic Iâ€™m not touching.
> 
> __ Buckle your seat belts boys and girls._


You have always struck me as a logical and decent person.

Are you meaning we are adults (or should be) and at times things are tough? Or are you indicating there is more information that may be released?


----------



## HoustonKid

Generally when you say buckle your seatbelt boys and girls it implies itâ€™s going to be a bumpy ride with some twists and turns that are unexpected.


----------



## batmaninja

I think many here have had their seat belts buckled based on how Art has handled this from day 1, they were just being confused with Kapernick shirts or something :cheers:

This was their long time residence, and even a homestead. 

I am going with low level user turned dealer. Appreciate your contributions to the thread Houtsonkid.


----------



## Lexy1

whitebassfisher said:


> your post # 6 on this thread. No one on 2cool had said anything bad about leo's in this thread at that point, but you wanted to send people to syria. By your own admission you are mad, and we all know that people don't think clearly when mad.
> 
> Calm down man! You are making all your hard working brothers look terrible.


bingo !!!


----------



## Lexy1

Category5 said:


> Now Art Acevedo is championing gun control as the answer, go figure! Iâ€™m quite certain stricter gun laws would have prevented this. Only cops and military should have access to guns I suppose, because itâ€™s not as if the 2nd amendment was specifically crafted to prevent a tyrannical government, right Chief? Do your job better, stay off camera under Kim Oggâ€™s desk bud.


This is what I'm afraid of. Nancy might pay a visit to Houston to gang up with Art about gun control.


----------



## SeaOx 230C

HoustonKid said:


> Generally when you say buckle your seatbelt boys and girls it implies itâ€™s going to be a bumpy ride with some twists and turns that are unexpected.


Thanks for the update. And thanks for your service.

The only thing I'm certain of on this one is the there has to be more to this story. I usually don't pay much attention to these type cops versus bad guy shoot outs. But for some reason this one has made me go Huh? What just happened?


----------



## Category6

For the record I have never had one negative interaction with police or game wardens, always top notch professional and some of the best folks youâ€™ll ever meet. My interest in this is predominantly that four of them got shot, which Iâ€™m not ok with.


----------



## pocjetty

I've stayed out of this dumpster fire of a thread, and I probably should now.

Somewhere in the first few days of the discussion, someone expressly stated that the woman and the dog were "murdered". Words have meaning, and if those people were "murdered" it means that one or more of the officers is a murderer. That was ignorant and wrong, and added a lot of oxygen to the fire, IMO. 

There were a number of comments about the no-knock that were clearly suggesting that the warrant was the cause of the shootings. At most, only one officer was involved in obtaining the warrant. The rest were there doing their jobs. Some of the comments here completely ignored that fact, and did a disservice to all the other officers involved. They didn't ask for the assignment - they just put their ***es on the line.

"Where was all the money? Where were all the drugs?" Some of the "questions" were clearly inferences that the police did something wrong. It's a free country, say what you want. But own what you're saying. And own the fact that some of you felt the need for that speculation while those officers were still in critical care in the hospital. When you step into a controversial position, don't act surprised or offended when there is controversy.

All that being said, I would like to know why there was not significant money or drugs in the house. (Assuming that report is accurate.) I'm not a fan of storming into peoples' houses unless they are serious desperados. It's not out of the question that a CI exaggerated a story for his/her own benefit. But it's also not out of the question that a CI tipped the people ahead of time, or told a friend who tipped them.


----------



## Haute Pursuit

SeaOx 230C said:


> Ah I see we should be happy with what the"Horses mouth" says because we all know what the "horse" tell us is always the 100% unvarnished truth. We should not question what the Government or Law enforcement tells us we just accept what we are told.
> 
> You bring up the Travon Martin case. Do you realize you are doing the same thing that those that assumed his innocence did to those that said something ain't right here? The President of the United States himself told us that Travon was the victim. Some of us said no I don't think so â€œHorseâ€. In the eyes of the â€œhorseâ€ those that insisted something ainâ€™t right here were racists. They were attacked for being racist.
> 
> How is that different than you saying those that have a different thought on what may have happened and express that though are "stupid", "worthless opinions", "anti- police, "cop haters" etc...?
> 
> What if in the Travon deal people accepted the story that the Pres. and the media etcâ€¦. told?
> 
> Now in the end Travon was found to be the aggressor. And in this case it may be that nothing went wrong everything was peachy. But doesthat really matter? The premise is the same. It ain't good to suppress peopleâ€™sthoughts and opinions with bullying, insults etc...
> 
> It sure ain't healthy to our Constitutional Republic tosimply believe whatever LE and Government tells us.
> 
> Now do those thoughts and opinions at times get a bit out there in La La land well yes they do.
> 
> I get tired of being labeled racist for questioning anything a minority does. I get tired of the other extreme throwing out the Cop Hater label any time the Police are questioned. I get tired of being labeled as anti-environment because I donâ€™t buy into all the Climate Change garbage.
> 
> If you can't change peoples opinion with the validity of your thoughts ideals and opinions well.... insulting them and intimidating them into silence seems to be the goto alternative these days.
> 
> Can a person no longer express their thoughts and opinions in this Country?
> 
> I have not read one thing in these posts that screamed â€œCOP HATERâ€. I have read a bunch of opinions as to what might have happened in an event that obviously went terribly wrong.
> 
> See you fellas on the next thread this one is about done.


How is ol' Traveon???


----------



## CHARLIE

If someone thinks Police enjoy dealing with an individual with their pants hanging down below their butt doing their ganksta shuffle, spouting filth towards an officer, refusing any command, Knowing after whatever happens it will be preached the crook has never been in trouble and is now a choirboy is just plain dumb.


----------



## photofishin

pocjetty said:


> I've stayed out of this dumpster fire of a thread, and I probably should now.
> 
> Somewhere in the first few days of the discussion, someone expressly stated that the woman and the dog were "murdered". Words have meaning, and if those people were "murdered" it means that one or more of the officers is a murderer. That was ignorant and wrong, and added a lot of oxygen to the fire, IMO.
> 
> There were a number of comments about the no-knock that were clearly suggesting that the warrant was the cause of the shootings. At most, only one officer was involved in obtaining the warrant. The rest were there doing their jobs. Some of the comments here completely ignored that fact, and did a disservice to all the other officers involved. They didn't ask for the assignment - they just put their ***es on the line.
> 
> "Where was all the money? Where were all the drugs?" Some of the "questions" were clearly inferences that the police did something wrong. It's a free country, say what you want. But own what you're saying. And own the fact that some of you felt the need for that speculation while those officers were still in critical care in the hospital. When you step into a controversial position, don't act surprised or offended when there is controversy.


Thank you. It seems common sense and logic does prevail here at least to some people.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

I asked to change thought direction here just a bit here. How are the 2 men who were worst hurt in this raid? One was shot in the neck apparently and there is legitimate concern about being paralyzed. The other (by report here) was shot in the face and jaw and even had part of his tongue destroyed. News tends to stop updates on even huge stories and move on to the next tragedy.


----------



## Profish00

https://www.khou.com/article/news/i...cTuDpYYZ2tClUclKVIy4_JUVu3Gxi-vZFdmxPLSIhu1a4


----------



## StinkBait

Profish00 said:


> https://www.khou.com/article/news/i...cTuDpYYZ2tClUclKVIy4_JUVu3Gxi-vZFdmxPLSIhu1a4


Be careful, you may soon be labeled a cop hater.


----------



## HoustonKid

HoustonKid said:


> Going on record with the running of the warrant is what it is. I stand by everything I said about the running of the warrant. The story of how they got there is a topic Iâ€™m not touching.
> 
> Buckle your seat belts boys and girls.


.


----------



## Lexy1

All I can say there are always few bad apples in the tree.
Oh no, I might be enlisted as "cop hater" here too. Lol.


----------



## doyou

HoustonKid said:


> .


I see what you did there


----------



## Whitebassfisher

HoustonKid said:


> Going on record with the running of the warrant is what it is. I stand by everything I said about the running of the warrant. The story of how they got there is a topic Iâ€™m not touching.
> 
> Buckle your seat belts boys and girls.





HoustonKid said:


> Generally when you say buckle your seatbelt boys and girls it implies itâ€™s going to be a bumpy ride with some twists and turns that are unexpected.





HoustonKid said:


> .


 I have been watching "breaking news" since you told us. Sure enough, you were right.
This is a shame of course, but I am glad those in power are digging for the truth. Who knows what they find. I still think most here are LEO backers, and weren't happy with 4 shot and another injured.

Photo, apparently the ones in power didn't listen to you and blindly accept the original story.


----------



## Gilbert

uh oh.......


----------



## batmaninja

_According to three law enforcement sources, one focus of the investigation is about the validity of a purported controlled buy of suspected heroin in the 7800 block of Harding Street in southeast Houston. In a search warrant affidavit, the case agent wrote that a confidential informant purchased a brown powder substance known as â€œboy,â€ the street term for heroin, on Jan. 27._

Wait. Is police Chief Art a 2cooler. It is like he read this thread. Wasnt there somebody that brought the same exact thing up? Dont think he was a LEO either, maybe it was post #30, or #35. That guy isnt even that smart either. :goldfish:

And wasnt this instance being used by some to try to further gun control sad_smiles


----------



## SeaOx 230C

I think most just want to know the truth of the matter and don't want this sort of thing to ever happen.


I know myself I don't care so much about if the outcome is corruption or sloppy work, over confidence or even that the Tuttles were really bad to bone and there should of been more support to conduct to the raid safely. 


My take is and has been that with 5 officers injured and two people dead something ain't right. And every effort should be made to determine what and the findings should be learned from so that this does not happen again.


----------



## Category6

HKs credibility just went up 1000X, for the record.


----------



## HoustonKid

SeaOx 230C said:


> I think most just want to know the truth of the matter and don't want this sort of thing to ever happen.
> 
> I know myself I don't care so much about if the outcome is corruption or sloppy work, over confidence or even that the Tuttles were really bad to bone and there should of been more support to conduct to the raid safely.
> 
> My take is and has been that with 5 officers injured and two people dead something ain't right. And every effort should be made to determine what and the findings should be learned from so that this does not happen again.


Well said.


----------



## photofishin

Whitebassfisher said:


> I have been watching "breaking news" since you told us. Sure enough, you were right.
> This is a shame of course, but I am glad those in power are digging for the truth. Who knows what they find. I still think most here are LEO backers, and weren't happy with 4 shot and another injured.
> 
> Photo, apparently the ones in power didn't listen to you and blindly accept the original story.


Notice the ones in power actually have law enforcement experience and aren't playing jr detectives. I also noticed this in the article, which it seems you missed- _â€œWe certainly donâ€™t want anyone to read too far into this,â€ said Joe Gamaldi, president of the Houston Police Officerâ€™s Union. â€œThere are officers that get relieved of duty and then come back to work with no discipline whatsoever.â€
_
This is the last I'm posting on this nonsensical thread. Notice that the "police" are investigating. They have experience with this. Go on about your speculation all you want.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

I am really not sure what to think in my nonsensical speculation. In general I trust the police. I was worried initially that one narc had an informant make a buy, and in passing the communication on the house address was confused. But we are told it was one and the same narc, who is in the hospital from gun shot wounds. They seem very confident it was the right house.

I specifically read the part yesterday _â€œThere are officers that get relieved of duty and then come back to work with no discipline whatsoeverâ€ _and hope that is the case here. SeaOx 230C's summation about 4 posts above is exactly how I feel.

The police truly do protect us. Life would be like the jungle without them. I don't like them being hurt, and still don't understand why you get so mad for us wanting to try to prevent tragedies such as this.


----------



## dwilliams35

Whitebassfisher said:


> I am really not sure what to think in my nonsensical speculation. In general I trust the police. I was worried initially that one narc had an informant make a buy, and in passing the communication on the house address was confused. But we are told it was one and the same narc, who is in the hospital from gun shot wounds. They seem very confident it was the right house.
> 
> I specifically read the part yesterday *â€œThere are officers that get relieved of duty and then come back to work with no discipline whatsoeverâ€ *and hope that is the case here. SeaOx 230C's summation about 4 posts above is exactly how I feel.
> 
> The police truly do protect us. Life would be like the jungle without them. I don't like them being hurt, and still don't understand why you get so mad for us wanting to try to prevent tragedies such as this.


Iâ€™d feel a whole lot better about that if he had said â€œthere are officers that get relieved of duty and then are exonerated completelyâ€.... â€œcoming back with no discipline whatsoeverâ€ really just reads like â€œthere are officers that get relieved of duty and then get away with it scot freeâ€: I guess thanks just the mentality of a union boss at work..


----------



## Lexy1

dwilliams35 said:


> Iâ€™d feel a whole lot better about that if he had said â€œthere are officers that get relieved of duty and then are exonerated completelyâ€.... â€œcoming back with no discipline whatsoeverâ€ really just reads like â€œ*there are officers that get relieved of duty and then get away with it scot free*â€: I guess thanks just the mentality of a union boss at work..


Dwilliams,
photofishin will label you "COP HATER" for sure. j/k lol.

I'm pretty sure that 99.99% of us in this thread here are NOT cop hater. Name one out if you (photofishin) can.

As I said earlier, there are always few bad apples in the tree. Nobody is perfect. Everyone here just wants to know the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth (so help us God).
What we want and what we get can be totally different. I'm not sure if we can get that.


----------



## pocjetty

There's a lot of rumor out there by people who don't have a clue. I just read the latest "official" story. The officers say that they frisked the CI before sending him up to make the buy, and he came back with a packet of heroin. That seems pretty compelling, if true.

But...it also says that they took that info to a municipal court judge and got a no-knock warrant. I don't think no-knocks are always bad, like some of the people here. But I do think they should only be used after a prolonged investigation. And I definitely don't think they should be getting signed off on by a person who presides over traffic tickets and violations of municipal code.

But THEN it says that the police found two 12 gauge shotguns, a 20 gauge, a .22 rifle, and one other rifle. No mention of the revolver? More and more, I don't trust anything I read. Right wing, left wing, liberal, conservative, it doesn't matter. The truth may be out there, but it's mixed with so much misinformation and disinformation, you can't sort it out. And even then it's usually just a part of the truth.

The only thing I can say about the whole thing is that IF we're getting no-knock warrants signed by traffic judges, the system is broken.


----------



## jetbuilt

photofishin said:


> Notice the ones in power actually have law enforcement experience and aren't playing jr detectives. I also noticed this in the article, which it seems you missed- _â€œWe certainly donâ€™t want anyone to read too far into this,â€ said Joe Gamaldi, president of the Houston Police Officerâ€™s Union. â€œThere are officers that get relieved of duty and then come back to work with no discipline whatsoever.â€
> _
> This is the last I'm posting on this nonsensical thread. Notice that the "police" are investigating. They have experience with this. Go on about your speculation all you want.


Good riddance!!!


----------



## Whitebassfisher

Maybe everyone is tired of this subject, but I am still interested.

Fifty-four years ago I was on a river canoe trip and wasn't able to make my destination on time. My name was in the paper and on radio..... fairly well publicized in Houston at the time. Many or most thought I was drowned. The news reported a lot of BS, just what sounded good, rather than facts. My point is I have known how inaccurate the news can be for a long time.

The news claims this in reference to temporarily relieving a cop of his badge: 
_According to three law enforcement sources, one focus of the investigation is about the validity of a purported controlled buy of suspected heroin in the 7800 block of Harding Street in southeast Houston. _
_It is unclear what role the officer played in the raid, but three law enforcement sources say this officer is listed on the warrant. However, he did not write the warrant and is not the case agent who led the raid._
_The case agent on the warrant remains hospitalized with a gunshot wound to the face and is unable to speak._

I think that a huge majority of cops are good as cops and have a strong desire to catch guilty people. However, it goes against decent human nature IMO to want to hurt an innocent person. Why would a cop be anything other than totally upfront and honest about about a drug buy? So, it is still very puzzling. Cops have plenty of bad people to catch, there is no reason to waste time on others.

Is the one who was relieved of duty temporarily in or out of the hospital? Is he the one who was shot in neck and possibly paralyzed?

There hasn't been much clarification on who is in or out of the hospital, and frankly considering privacy and HIPAA laws, I don't question that too much.


----------



## ralph7

Whitebassfisher said:


> Maybe everyone is tired of this subject, but I am still interested.
> 
> Fifty-four years ago I was on a river canoe trip and wasn't able to make my destination on time. My name was in the paper and on radio..... fairly well publicized in Houston at the time. Many or most thought I was drowned. The news reported a lot of BS, just what sounded good, rather than facts. My point is I have known how inaccurate the news can be for a long time.
> 
> The news claims this in reference to temporarily relieving a cop of his badge:
> _According to three law enforcement sources, one focus of the investigation is about the validity of a purported controlled buy of suspected heroin in the 7800 block of Harding Street in southeast Houston. _
> _It is unclear what role the officer played in the raid, but three law enforcement sources say this officer is listed on the warrant. However, he did not write the warrant and is not the case agent who led the raid._
> _The case agent on the warrant remains hospitalized with a gunshot wound to the face and is unable to speak._
> 
> I think that a huge majority of cops are good as cops and have a strong desire to catch guilty people. However, it goes against decent human nature IMO to want to hurt an innocent person.
> * Why would a cop be anything other than totally upfront and honest about about a drug buy?* So, it is still very puzzling. Cops have plenty of bad people to catch, there is no reason to waste time on others.
> 
> Is the one who was relieved of duty temporarily in or out of the hospital? Is he the one who was shot in neck and possibly paralyzed?
> 
> There hasn't been much clarification on who is in or out of the hospital, and frankly considering privacy and HIPAA laws, I don't question that too much.


Possible retaliation? Maybe Mr. Tuttle stepped on the wrong toes at one time.


----------



## Southern Dreams

1st of all I am not for a cop killer or any killer far as that go.. There are so many questions not answered. I went to school with Dennis at South Houston, he even spent the nite with our family . Never saw anything wrong with him ,not saying he couldn't have change. I don't think we will ever know the hole truth. And yes I have a hard time believing every cop ,mainly because the way they have handled my house brake in lost over $20,000 . 3 hours to show up still no detective happen Nov.3 . AGAIN I AM NOT FOR KILLER so please don't run over me when you see me out on the water


----------



## Profish00

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...ium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=kprc2

Still not adding up to a heroâ€™s bust on bad guys, Iâ€™m also no a cop hater.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Category6

In english please...


----------



## Profish00

Category5 said:


> In english please...


Is it in Italian?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## waderaider

no hand gun at all. only long guns. this guy was not a dealer. no wads of cash. no scale or other paraphenalia.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

*What next?*

We have all heard that a mother called 911 about her daughter doing drugs in the house. Now the news is saying it was Rhogena Nicholas' own mother?

HOUSTON, Texas (KTRK) -- 
It was a mother worried about her daughter's drug use that alerted Houston police to a home in southeast Houston, leading to a deadly drug raid, say ABC13 sources.

A 911 call from the mother of now-deceased suspect Rhogena Nicholas put 7815 Harding Street on police radar. Sources close to the investigation say her mother called reporting the 58-year-old was doing drugs inside her own home.


----------



## SeaOx 230C

What a terrible terrible tragedy.........

I pray for all those that must live with the consequences of their actions.


----------



## POC Fisherman

waderaider said:


> no hand gun at all. only long guns. this guy was not a dealer. no wads of cash. no scale or other paraphenalia.


When and if the truth is known, the police targeted the wrong house and the officers were shot by friendly fire.

Just my 2 cents!!


----------



## StinkBait

.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fishinguy

POC Fisherman said:


> When and if the truth is known, the police targeted the wrong house and the officers were shot by friendly fire.
> 
> Just my 2 cents!!


It still sounds like they were at the right house. However it sounds like the information provide to the judge in order to issue the warrant might be false.


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## rancher

Sadly so many lives are not being turned upside down to fight the war on drugs. A war that will never be won.:headknock


----------



## Tortuga

rancher said:


> Sadly so many lives are not being turned upside down to fight the war on drugs. *A war that will never be won*.:headknock


Too true, Rancher.. Earliest recorded use of opium...1729 AD....up to the present day... No end in sight...


----------



## HoustonKid

POC Fisherman said:


> When and if the truth is known, the police targeted the wrong house and the officers were shot by friendly fire.
> 
> Just my 2 cents!!


Wrong and wrong. The house they ran the warrant on was the house they intended to target. Zero friendly fire.


----------



## POC Fisherman

HoustonKid said:


> Wrong and wrong. The house they ran the warrant on was the house they intended to target. Zero friendly fire.


The issues in question are:

First, no handgun was found at the resident. Only three shotguns and two rifles.

Second, no black tar heroin was found.

Third no large amount of drugs found.

More information will be coming out in the next couple of weeks and sadly it will not be favorable for the Houston Police Department.


----------



## HoustonKid

POC Fisherman said:


> When and if the truth is known, the police targeted the wrong house and the officers were shot by friendly fire.
> 
> Just my 2 cents!!





HoustonKid said:


> Wrong and wrong. The house they ran the warrant on was the house they intended to target. Zero friendly fire.





POC Fisherman said:


> The issues in question are:
> 
> First, no handgun was found at the resident. Only three shotguns and two rifles.
> 
> Second, no black tar heroin was found.
> 
> Third no large amount of drugs found.
> 
> More information will be coming out in the next couple of weeks and sadly it will not be favorable for the Houston Police Department.


I donâ€™t discount any of your last post pertaining to there being some serious issues with the story. Maybe not in the way you are thinking but issues. But your previous post is not accurate at all. 100% wrong.


----------



## Mouse52

Tortuga said:


> Too true, Rancher.. Earliest recorded use of opium...1729 AD....up to the present day... No end in sight...


Agree. War on drugs is a waste of lives, resources and money.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whitebassfisher

It is easy to stray the wrong direction on some of the variables. As example, I thought the man whose badge was temporarily at least taken from him was one who was injured in the raid, but that isn't the case. I didn't cross my mind (for some reason) that the anonymous call from a woman about her daughter doing drugs in the house was from Rhogena Nicholas' mother, as is being said now.

Generally there is a reason for a action. *If* the informant buy didn't go as claimed, why was it exaggerated or lied about? If details of the warrant are wrong, was it the informant or the cop that exaggerated or lied?


----------



## will-billy




----------



## HoustonKid

will-billy said:


>


Iâ€™ll say it one last time. The house they executed the warrant on was the house that they intended to hit.


----------



## will-billy




----------



## will-billy

HoustonKid said:


> Iâ€™ll say it one last time. The house they executed the warrant on was the house that they intended to hit.


the informant said the dealer had a 9mm pistol and large quantities of black tar heroin....neither were in the house


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## Whitebassfisher

Hardly anything I hear about Art is good. He supposedly is too willing to throw his cops under the bus, but I think the department should be as transparent as possible. However, Art is a liberal and just thinks differently than many of us. Just the feeling I get from what he stands for, I don't like him. He was made some very strong statements that he will report the truth, whatever that turns out to be. We will see.


----------



## fishinguy

will-billy said:


> the informant said the dealer had a 9mm pistol and large quantities of black tar heroin....neither were in the house


The thing they are investigating is whether or not the "informant" lied or possibly one of the narcotics officer supplied false information to obtain the warrant.

The warrant was issued for the house that the narcotics officer wanted to serve. This is not an instance of they wrote down the wrong address however it is possible that they provided false information all together.

I don't think anything more than that will be made available until they complete the investigation.


----------



## rancher

Disable Vet., NO CRIMINAL RECORD, and *NO SCALES THAT ANY DEALER WOULD HAVE TO WEIGHT DOPE. *Something is not adding up. I remember something similar happening years ago at HPD. Several Officers were fired over the incident.


----------



## Category6

I can buy that they were tipped off and thus no heroin or 9mm, BUT... We all heard about the .357 revolver that was used to shoot 4 officers, where was that on the inventory sheet? This just gets more and more unbelievable.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

Apparently HPD is concerned that maybe it doesn't all add up, or else they wouldn't be investigating. 

However, not having scales is no more proof of innocence that having scales would prove guilt. How many people on 2Cool are reloaders, and so have extremely accurate scales for small weight?


----------



## tcbayman

Iâ€™ve been following this both on the news and on 2cool since it happened. Couple things stand out to me, for starters I see nothing wrong with a taxpayer having questions about 5 public employees getting hurt on the job. Thatâ€™s part of working for the government, it doesnâ€™t make people cop haters or anything like that. Secondly, something doesnâ€™t add up, and in my unprofessional opinion, no Knock warrants should be reserved for the hardest targets. Now all the facts arenâ€™t out, and I get that, but we have shot up cops a dead dog and 2 dead people that as far as we know are guilty of a little weed and a little coke. These are not no knock warrant type offenses. Those are my thoughts, and I really donâ€™t like to judge without all the facts so my opinions could change with new info.


----------



## dwilliams35

HoustonKid said:


> Iâ€™ll say it one last time. The house they executed the warrant on was the house that they intended to hit.


To be fair, that doesnâ€™t necessarily mean that it was the house that NEEDED to be hit. Or that any house at all needed to be hit.


----------



## HoustonKid

dwilliams35 said:


> To be fair, that doesnâ€™t necessarily mean that it was the house that NEEDED to be hit. Or that any house at all needed to be hit.


And Iâ€™ve never said so. Iâ€™ve only made the statement that the house they executed the warrant on is the house they targeted.


----------



## rancher

"Now all the facts arenâ€™t out, and I get that, but we have shot up cops a dead dog and 2 dead people that as far as we know are guilty of a little weed and a little coke. These are not no knock warrant type offenses. "


Could not agree more with the above statement from previous post. Something smells about the whole situation. :headknock


----------



## HoustonKid

fishinguy said:


> It still sounds like they were at the right house. However it sounds like the information provide to the judge in order to issue the warrant might be false.





Whitebassfisher said:


> Generally there is a reason for a action. *If* the informant buy didn't go as claimed, why was it exaggerated or lied about? If details of the warrant are wrong, was it the informant or the cop that exaggerated or lied?





will-billy said:


> the informant said the dealer had a 9mm pistol and large quantities of black tar heroin....neither were in the house





fishinguy said:


> The thing they are investigating is whether or not the "informant" lied or possibly one of the narcotics officer supplied false information to obtain the warrant.
> 
> The warrant was issued for the house that the narcotics officer wanted to serve. This is not an instance of they wrote down the wrong address however it is possible that they provided false information all together.





rancher said:


> [/B]Something is not adding up. I remember something similar happening years ago at HPD. Several Officers were fired over the incident.





Whitebassfisher said:


> Apparently HPD is concerned that maybe it doesn't all add up, or else they wouldn't be investigating.





rancher said:


> "Now all the facts arenâ€™t out, and I get that, but we have shot up cops a dead dog and 2 dead people that as far as we know are guilty of a little weed and a little coke. These are not no knock warrant type offenses.


All of these posts are food for thought.


----------



## Lexy1

HoustonKid said:


> All of these posts are food for thought.


Right. Someone is doing pretty good job of lying left and right!!!


----------



## rancher

Another good article on the raid. "
A 911 call from the mother of now-deceased suspect Rhogena Nicholas put 7815 Harding Street on police radar. Sources close to the investigation say her mother called reporting the 58-year-old was doing drugs inside her own home. Link is below. Something is way wrong.:headknock

https://abc13.com/what-was-found-in-home-after-deadly-drug-raid-hpd-warrant/5127653/


----------



## rancher

Zero evidence of any heroin found at this HUGE heroin dealer's residence. I think we need Chief Wiggum to investigate. 



:an2::an2:


----------



## waderaider

^^^^^
This. from all reports no hand gun or drug dealing paraphernalia were seized.
this house was not a dealer house in my mind. doesn't add up and smells to high heaven


----------



## Whitebassfisher

We have beat this subject to death in some ways, so I think it is time to wait and hear what the investigation releases. It is a fact, this went bad. Even the biggest PD supporters must admit 4 cops were shot, proof enough in my book this went bad. We are due the truth, whatever that is. Contradictions must be explained. Chief camera hound has said plain as day he will find out, so I want to wait and see. 



The 911 call had to have been recorded, which could be interesting.


----------



## jtburf

Flash Bang grenade or tear gas would most likely not have resulted in anyone's death or shootings.

Just saying!! 


John


----------



## BretE

Hey, how do yâ€™all feel about all those croaker guide bastards meat hauling and all the whiny just keep 5 trout bozos?......:rotfl:


----------



## Haute Pursuit

BretE said:


> Hey, how do yâ€™all feel about all those croaker guide bastards meat hauling and all the whiny just keep 5 trout bozos?......:rotfl:


Circle hook... twitch, twitch... slack line... SLAM!


----------



## Lexy1

Whitebassfisher said:


> We have beat this subject to death in some ways, so I think it is time to wait and hear what the investigation releases. It is a fact, this went bad. Even the biggest PD supporters must admit 4 cops were shot, proof enough in my book this went bad. We are due the truth, whatever that is. Contradictions must be explained. Chief camera hound has said plain as day he will find out, so I want to wait and see.
> 
> The 911 call had to have been recorded, which could be interesting.


I'm pretty sure that ALL of us want to know all the truths but I seriously doubt if we can get the 100% truth about this story. It will be forgotten after few months in time. FACTs already showed the story got twisted in so many ways.


----------



## EddieL

dwilliams35 said:


> To be fair, that doesnâ€™t necessarily mean that it was the house that NEEDED to be hit. Or that any house at all needed to be hit.


Of course it didn't, but these guys needed to justify their existence. Nothing more than that. Go in for what they though was an easy setup to justify their existence.


----------



## fishinguy

jtburf said:


> Flash Bang grenade or tear gas would most likely not have resulted in anyone's death or shootings.
> 
> Just saying!!
> 
> John


Yeah because throwing flash bangs into houses never hurts anyone :headknock


----------



## jtburf

fishinguy said:


> Yeah because throwing flash bangs into houses never hurts anyone :headknock


I personally would rather see the convo be about the City having a settlement with 2 known dealers over hearing loss. Not one where 4 officers were injured in the line of duty bad enough it could be career ending and **** sure life altering!!! for a few grams of coke and some smoke...

You may disagree though...

John


----------



## boom!

jtburf said:


> I personally would rather see the convo be about the City having a settlement with 2 known dealers over hearing loss. Not one where 4 officers were injured in the line of duty bad enough it could be career ending and **** sure life altering!!! for a few grams of coke and some smoke...
> 
> You may disagree though...
> 
> John


I'd have to disagree with going in anywhere without the proper intel.

https://www.policeone.com/officer-m...t-in-SWAT-raid-when-flash-bang-lands-in-crib/


----------



## jtburf

boom! said:


> I'd have to disagree with going in anywhere without the proper intel.
> 
> https://www.policeone.com/officer-m...t-in-SWAT-raid-when-flash-bang-lands-in-crib/


Boom,

Feel free to go back to pages 1-23 and argue proper intel. I am saying one thing.

I would rather see perps hurt than police officers...

John


----------



## boom!

jtburf said:


> Boom,
> 
> Feel free to go back to pages 1-23 and argue proper intel. I am saying one thing.
> 
> I would rather see perps hurt than police officers...
> 
> John


And I am saying that I never want to see flash bangs thrown in baby cribs. Ever. You disagree?


----------



## CHARLIE

As I said there will be and is a complete investigation taking place. We will see what comes .
For sure there was a drug dealer, correct house hit with terrible results.


----------



## jtburf

boom! said:


> And I am saying that I never want to see flash bangs thrown in baby cribs. Ever. You disagree?


I am not a fan of flashbangs in babies cribs.

Sadly with the shear size of the population that has law enforcement interactions that are on the "Not Good" side it happens.

How many innocent victims from High speed chases, by stander gun fire, Etc, Etc, Etc.

It is part of the equation when enforcing the law...

John


----------



## boom!

jtburf said:


> I am not a fan of flashbangs in babies cribs.
> 
> Sadly with the shear size of the population that has law enforcement interactions that are on the "Not Good" side it happens.
> 
> *How many innocent victims from High speed chases, by stander gun fire, Etc, Etc, Etc.
> *
> It is part of the equation when enforcing the law...
> 
> John


Those are victims at the hands of criminals though, huge difference to me. I absolutely hate to see injured and slain police officers. Exactly why (I think) these entries should be planned and approved by the best of the best and only used on the worst of the worst. It seems that both were absent in both of these cases.


----------



## k-dog

story is coming a part. https://www.click2houston.com/news/...t-raid-turned-shootout-after-warrant-reviewed


----------



## Lexy1

k-dog said:


> story is coming a part. https://www.click2houston.com/news/...t-raid-turned-shootout-after-warrant-reviewed


I like this comment "The worst of the worst in law enforcement."

Oh no, does it make me the "COP HATER" now?
I'm surprised that photofishin has been quiet lately.


----------



## Bonestock

Shame on all of us "junior detectives" for every questioning the initial story that wasn't even coming close to adding up.


----------



## batmaninja

I think some of us just got promoted to Captain Jr Detective after this case :biggrin:

I really really really hope that some good comes out of all of this, and slimy Art get fired. I still cant believe he tried to use this as a case from national gun control.


----------



## ralph7

batmaninja said:


> I think some of us just got promoted to Captain Jr Detective after this case :biggrin:
> 
> I really really really hope that some good comes out of all of this, and slimy Art get fired.
> * I still cant believe he tried to use this as a case from national gun control.*


Chief Avocado would like nothing better than NO civilians having guns, period.
Gun grabbers talk "common sense" gun control when their true agenda is to disarm all of us.
The NRA knows their game and shuts them down before they can get a foot in the door.


----------



## boom!

ralph7 said:


> *Chief Avocado would like nothing better than NO civilians having guns, period.*
> Gun grabbers talk "common sense" gun control when their true agenda is to disarm all of us.
> The NRA knows their game and shuts them down before they can get a foot in the door.


Well it would make no knock's safer when used on law abiding citizens. lol


----------



## Whitebassfisher

jtburf said:


> Boom,
> 
> Feel free to go back to pages 1-23 and argue proper intel. I am saying one thing.
> 
> I would rather see perps hurt than police officers...
> 
> John


This just begs the question ..... why did *anyone* need to get hurt there that day?


----------



## fishinguy

And then there is this



> *HPD undercover cop lied* about drug buy that led to deadly raid, Chief Acevedo says
> A confidential informant told investigators he never bought drugs at the home of Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas.


Can't really say I am surprised. This story stunk from the beginning.

It's really sad when you think about the outcome of what they did a couple dead civilians and at least 2 cops that will never be the same. And for what purpose?


----------



## rancher

I knew Chief Wiggum would solve this


----------



## Bocephus

Wow....a lot of backseat driving, conspiracy theorists were right. 

Bad deal, all the way around.


----------



## rancher

Someone is going to be very very rich after theses lawsuits. This is a Buzbee special to put it to Turner and his administration.


----------



## Hunter.S.Tomson

Oh no, does it make me the "COP HATER" now?
I'm surprised that photofishin has been quiet lately.[/QUOTE]

No doubt...never question authority


----------



## Whitebassfisher

WHY?


What would the cop gain by lying about this? Obviously a cop did lie to get the warrant, but why?


I am curious too, not that it matters, but did the liar get injured in the raid, or only his innocent co-workers had their lives shattered and he walked away uninjured?


----------



## mudboat

So have they released toxicology of the home owners were they even drug users.This case gets worse everyday for the police and a few bad apples really hurt the Good ones just a very sad deal for all involved.


----------



## CHARLIE

Ya think the informant is telling the truth ? As I said a few times a investigation is ongoing. Lets see what happens.


----------



## will-billy

HPD WARRANT: Informant didn't buy drugs from suspects killed in police shootout
https://abc13.com/warrant-informant-didnt-buy-drugs-from-couple-killed-in-raid/5140341/

A confidential informant didn't buy drugs at the southeast Houston home where an investigation turned into a deadly shootout with police last month, according to a new search warrant. That contradicts information used to get the no-knock search warrant, which said that a confidential informant bought heroin at the house the day before the drug raid. The raid happened on Jan. 28. Rhogena Nicholas, 58, and Dennis Tuttle, 59, were both killed in the raid at their home on 7815 Harding Street. Four HPD officers were shot and a fifth officer injured his knee.

In the warrant (new warrant) requested by a sergeant with HPD's Special Investigations Unit - Homicide Division, Officer Gerald Goines contacted a confidential informant on Jan. 27, who went to buy drugs at the home.

After the shooting, police went to Goines to get the informant's name. The informant told investigators he or she did not recognize the Harding Street home or Tuttle.

Investigators returned to Goines for the names of more informants, who had all worked for Goines in the past. They all denied making a buy for Goines at the home. They also denied ever buying drugs from Nicholas or Tuttle.

The warrant shows that two bags of heroin were found in Goines' city vehicle.

An officer who has been temporarily relieved of duty told investigators he'd never seen the bags of heroin. However, that contradicts the original warrant indicating that same officer did recognize the substance purchased by the confidential informant as heroin. The original warrant is what led to the raid at the home on Harding.
*****************


----------



## dwilliams35

This is shaping up to be a pretty spectacular ****show.


----------



## Won Hunglo

Crazy thing about it is there will be people even here defending the officer that lied and got people killed and his partners shot up.


----------



## HoustonKid

Whitebassfisher said:


> WHY?
> 
> What would the cop gain by lying about this? Obviously a cop did lie to get the warrant, but why?
> 
> I am curious too, not that it matters, but did the liar get injured in the raid, or only his innocent co-workers had their lives shattered and he walked away uninjured?


There is always a reason....


----------



## will-billy

Bocephus said:


> Wow....a lot of backseat driving, conspiracy theorists were right.
> 
> Bad deal, all the way around.


its not a conspiracy when none of the official information from the press conferences made sense, its normal for the news to totally screw up the story but the police weren't even on the same page.

hell raiding the wrong house was a better story than what they were saying. an informant called in a complaint, they went to the scene, a lady was there talking on the cell phone, they ask was she the one that called in...she said no, but they claim to have overheard her say "they are in front of the drug house"
they called the informant back and she said she couldn't talk and they raided the house based on that BS?

they originally said the entire neighborhood was fed up with the activities, yet when they interviewed the neighbors everyone loved these people and said they would never do anything like this. that they weren't drug dealers they were poor and starving to death


----------



## Category6

Letâ€™s say it went down perfectly, arrests made, no shots fired. Then heroin planted, case closed. Why, whatâ€™s the motive? Thatâ€™s the REAL question in my mind, something personal maybe. Bad apples completely *********** the reputation of everyone else in HPD. I think FBI is appropriate here and murder charges may be legitimate and warranted for those involved, maybe not for DT shooting since he was also shooting but based on information we now have can we really believe RN was reaching for the shotgun? I also question whether DT really knew it was police. *** REALLY happened?


----------



## Whitebassfisher

No matter how badly the PD doesn't like to admit this, we must realize that DT and RN very likely had no idea they were cops. If you are holding a gun in front of that tiny word 'police' on their chest, you can't see it. The dog was shot instantly, no one could hear.


----------



## batmaninja

will-billy said:


> In the warrant (new warrant) requested by a sergeant with HPD's Special Investigations Unit - Homicide Division, Officer Gerald Goines contacted a confidential informant on Jan. 27, who went to buy drugs at the home.
> 
> raid at the home on Harding.


Why would an Officer in homicide be contacting a CI to do a drug buy?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whitebassfisher

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...fficer-in-drug-raid-had-previous-13621276.php


----------



## rancher

The article was poorly written. Homicide is investigating the police shooting and death involved in the incident. The search warrant was obtained for the phones of the officers involved in the incident.


----------



## 223AI

Nothing is going to happen to these cops, or the department as a whole, to hold anybody accountable. The FBI or the Rangers need to be 100% involved in the investigation, but they wonâ€™t because the union and department donâ€™t care to do the right thing...rather they just want to protect their own. Typical â€œus against themâ€ mentality. The whole things stinks to high heaven of corruption and murder. Shameful and disgusting. 

The war on drugs is a joke. So is HPD and their ridiculous union talking head.


----------



## HoustonKid

223AI said:


> Nothing is going to happen to these cops, or the department as a whole, to hold anybody accountable. The FBI or the Rangers need to be 100% involved in the investigation, but they wonâ€™t because the union and department donâ€™t care to do the right thing...rather they just want to protect their own. Typical â€œus against themâ€ mentality. The whole things stinks to high heaven of corruption and murder. Shameful and disgusting.
> 
> The war on drugs is a joke. So is HPD and their ridiculous union talking head.


With this chief and district attorney, I believe there will be some serious consequences for all involved if what the chief last reported holds true which at this point thereâ€™s not much indicating otherwise.


----------



## troutalex33

*I like this part....*

"Dont rush to judgement " but isnt that what it seems they did when raiding that house ?


----------



## karstopo

Is there any clarity on what exactly happened and why? Was it the right house? Why did the police officer lie? Was there really any drugs in the house or were those planted? Weâ€™re the people in the house actual drug dealers. Who called in the supposed complaint? Was that some sort of vendetta?


----------



## boom!

Whitebassfisher said:


> https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...fficer-in-drug-raid-had-previous-13621276.php


WOW! :headknock


----------



## pocjetty

Won Hunglo said:


> Crazy thing about it is there will be people even here defending the officer that lied and got people killed and his partners shot up.


When someone here defends a cop for lying on a search warrant, come back and I'll say you were right about that comment. Until then, it's just a ridiculous thing to say.

The fact is that we have seen a long parade of claims against police over the past few years. It's become sort of a national pastime. Most of them (like the "hands up don't shoot" guy) paint the supposed "victims" as choirboys, and the police as crazed murderers. And when the facts came out, we find out differently. And as result, many of us have taken the position that we'll believe the police until we see evidence to the contrary. But none of us, I don't think, are going to keep believing the police when there is evidence to the contrary.

A lot of the speculation went on in the absence of ANY sort of evidence. I know, I know, you could just "tell". But just because you guess what color underwear I'm wearing, it doesn't mean you're really psychic.

Here's the thing that people patting themselves on the back are leaving out: the comments and speculation were all directed at "HPD" in general, and not at one bad apple who lied to get a search warrant. The other officers who got shot up were all there just doing their jobs with the reasonable expectation that the warrant was clean. The comments painted all of them with the same broad brush. And even in light of this new evidence, that part is still wrong.


----------



## Lat22

Category5 said:


> Letâ€™s say it went down perfectly, arrests made, no shots fired. Then heroin planted, case closed. Why, whatâ€™s the motive? Thatâ€™s the REAL question in my mind, something personal maybe. Bad apples completely *********** the reputation of everyone else in HPD. I think FBI is appropriate here and murder charges may be legitimate and warranted for those involved, maybe not for DT shooting since he was also shooting but based on information we now have can we really believe RN was reaching for the shotgun? I also question whether DT really knew it was police. *** REALLY happened?


The motive? Stats. Glory. Awards. Adoration. The same reason some firefighters set buildings on fire. This thing stunk from the minute they released the photos of the â€œsuspectsâ€. Where is Mr. â€œGood Riddanceâ€ now?


----------



## CHARLIE

Come on guys, lets wait till it all washes out. Then we will know. If yall didnt know, informants dont always tell the truth either.


----------



## RLwhaler

will-billy said:


> HPD WARRANT: Informant didn't buy drugs from suspects killed in police shootout
> https://abc13.com/warrant-informant-didnt-buy-drugs-from-couple-killed-in-raid/5140341/
> 
> A confidential informant didn't buy drugs at the southeast Houston home where an investigation turned into a deadly shootout with police last month, according to a new search warrant. That contradicts information used to get the no-knock search warrant, which said that a confidential informant bought heroin at the house the day before the drug raid. The raid happened on Jan. 28. Rhogena Nicholas, 58, and Dennis Tuttle, 59, were both killed in the raid at their home on 7815 Harding Street. Four HPD officers were shot and a fifth officer injured his knee.
> 
> In the warrant (new warrant) requested by a sergeant with HPD's Special Investigations Unit - Homicide Division, Officer Gerald Goines contacted a confidential informant on Jan. 27, who went to buy drugs at the home.
> 
> After the shooting, police went to Goines to get the informant's name. The informant told investigators he or she did not recognize the Harding Street home or Tuttle.
> 
> Investigators returned to Goines for the names of more informants, who had all worked for Goines in the past. They all denied making a buy for Goines at the home. They also denied ever buying drugs from Nicholas or Tuttle.
> 
> The warrant shows that two bags of heroin were found in Goines' city vehicle.
> 
> An officer who has been temporarily relieved of duty told investigators he'd never seen the bags of heroin. However, that contradicts the original warrant indicating that same officer did recognize the substance purchased by the confidential informant as heroin. The original warrant is what led to the raid at the home on Harding.
> *****************


They should charge Mia Shay for being so darn ugly. :headknock


----------



## Tigerhead52

> lHere's the thing that people patting themselves on the back are leaving out: the comments and speculation were all directed at "HPD" in general, and not at one bad apple who lied to get a search warrant


While I wouldn't go so far as to condemn an entire department, I think it is obvious that many people within the department are culpable and should be held accountable for allowing this guy to operate the way he has over the years. I think one of the primary reasons many people have become anti cop is that too often police agencies condone the means based on the results.

Look, it's a tough job, and I have the utmost respect for the men who perform this job with integrity and professionalism. But the red flags surrounding this guy's past behavior are numerous. And that's just the allegations that are documented.

I can honestly say that, although I had no hard evidence at the time, this incident immediately raised red flags in my mind. If I was one of his superiors and I had knowledge of his past behaviors, there is no way I would have allowed him to conduct this investigation and bust without serious oversight. The only reason I can imagine why they even continued to allow him to stay in Narcotics is because they looked at him as their pit bull. So yes, HPD should be ashamed and admonished for allowing this guy to continue. That's the only way to fix the department.

Again, I take my hat off to the good cops of this city. But I can also tell you I mistakenly became friends with a bad cop, not too many years ago, who ended up bragging to me about some of the goings on within HPD. He was in robbery and theft and there were many opportunities for them to conduct unlawful practices. On top of that, it turns out that they even traded off stolen goods for confiscated (but unlogged) drugs with the narcotics officers. From our discussions I can tell you this is not something isolated or new. I suspect it's the dark side of many police departments.


----------



## Hunter.S.Tomson

It seems that the individuals who lean strongly to authority or are positively biased towards law enforcement get easily offended when that authority is questioned. It's similar to when you were growing up and your parents told you something and do not question it because that's just the way it is. Alot of us thought man these adults and parents have their sh!t together... they are it. When you got older you realized hey they are human too and just as screwed up as the rest of us lol. If you came to realize some of the things they taught or said were not the gospel you didn't just totally lose all respect for them. Same with the authority of law enforcement. They have the hardest job in the world and deserve the utmost respect, but does that mean we cannot question anything they do? I think we'd be doing a disservice to ourselves if we never did


----------



## Whitebassfisher

Child: "Why?"






Parent: "Because I said so!"




I bet there are many good hard working cops in HPD right now that are furious at the liar for tainting them. I sure hope it doesn't set us back to Joe Campos Torres days.


----------



## pocjetty

Tigerhead52 said:


> While I wouldn't go so far as to condemn an entire department, I think it is obvious that many people within the department are culpable and should be held accountable for allowing this guy to operate the way he has over the years. I think one of the primary reasons many people have become anti cop is that too often police agencies condone the means based on the results.


I guess I don't find that to be "obvious". In a city as large as Houston, I'm 100% certain that there are bad guys on the force. It's unavoidable. But I've personally seen people get by with embezzlement in big corporations with excellent precautions, and yearly audits. Eventually it catches up with them, but the crafty ones can sometimes get by with it for a long time, without anyone else knowing or helping them. It's always someone you trust, or it wouldn't be embezzlement.

I ran afoul of a bad cop when I was in business. One of my retail locations got burglarized to the tune of about $50K worth of stuff, and I was always certain that he had been casing the place and learning about the security system. The people who broke in knew exactly the most expensive stuff and where it was situated. He later got busted, along with another bad cop, for planning to kill his own daughter for insurance. (Along with some other nasty stuff.) You don't have to tell me that they're out there.

But I stand by the idea that there is a much smaller percentage of bad guys among the police, than among the people they are investigating and arresting. Even so, I try not to jump to too many conclusions, one way or the other, until I've seen something tangible.

I get in trouble here fairly regularly for this, but I think a reputation is hard to build, easy to destroy, and almost impossible to repair. So I do my best to avoid the human tendency to assume that where there is smoke there is automatically fire. I know that's not as much fun as lighting torches and tying nooses, but I'm funny that way. Give me some facts, and where they expose a bad cop, put him under the jail.


----------



## Category6

I still want to know why no handgun was on the inventory sheet, but Art told us emphatically that DT emerged from a back room and shot 4 officers with a .357 magnum revolver. Call me what you want, but Iâ€™m REAL CURIOUS about that! Also curious why the case agent hasnâ€™t given a statement. Canâ€™t talk, I get that, can you write? Who shot the officers and with what? Never mind why you were even there in the first place. Finally, why was there heroin in the case agents car? Seems like maybe the Dave Chapelle â€œsprinkle some crack on himâ€ routine got interrupted somehow. WHERE IS THE .357????


----------



## S-3 ranch

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...fficer-in-drug-raid-had-previous-13621276.php


----------



## Tigerhead52

> I guess I don't find that to be "obvious".


I've read a lot of your fishing reports. It's "obvious" to me that you are an honest guy. It's also "obvious" to me that you are a nice guy that likes to teach people about fishing. And it's also "obvious" that you are a very knowledgeable fisherman.

Now, I've never met you, and I could be wrong about these things. Maybe you find those pics on the internet and post them up as your own, but I don't think so.

So without ever meeting you I can ascertain this much about you. Don't you think the people that this guy worked with and worked for know what kind of guy he is? I doubt he started falsifying warrants and such just for this bust. I'm willing to bet this type of behavior has been going on for a long time. The article in the Chronicle made that pretty clear. So if that wasn't "obvious" to his superiors, then it should have been. They get paid to provide oversight. So they are either complicit, or they are incompetent and culpable and should be held accountable.

Anyway, you go on trusting and I will continue to distrust. I think that's a good thing. Balance. Kind of like you keep catching fish and I don't. Balance. Good for the fish stocks. Peace man.


----------



## doyou

anyone seen photofishin ?


Also i am curious too on ballistic results on the bullets from the hurt offices and what weapon the suspect really fired at them


----------



## Hunter.S.Tomson

HoustonKid...anyone??


----------



## HoustonKid

HoustonKid said:


> There is always a reason....





Hunter.S.Tomson said:


> HoustonKid...anyone??


Iâ€™m here. Like I said before, Iâ€™m not touching the how and why the warrant was obtained.

How and WHY.


----------



## pocjetty

Tigerhead52 said:


> Don't you think the people that this guy worked with and worked for know what kind of guy he is? I doubt he started falsifying warrants and such just for this bust. I'm willing to bet this type of behavior has been going on for a long time. The article in the Chronicle made that pretty clear. So if that wasn't "obvious" to his superiors, then it should have been. They get paid to provide oversight. So they are either complicit, or they are incompetent and culpable and should be held accountable.


I'm not busy, so I'll tell two stories:

About six months ago, our church sent $10K to another church in a nearby town that had been hit hard by Harvey. We had funds left over after repairs, so we passed it on. We recently learned that the pastor's wife had been embezzling from the church, and that $10K never made it into the church's bank account. The people in that church weren't complicit nor incompetent. She found a seam in the system, and she was able to exploit it for a time. It catches up, but if there were a way to totally prevent this kind of thing, people would have perfected it generations ago.

As for the "obvious". I worked on an armored car in college. One day a bag of money went missing. (Not on my route.) The bank did an internal investigation, but they started throwing shade on one of our employees immediately. The police got brought in, and it was clear that they "knew" the guy had done it from before they asked the first question. After the bank's investigation, it was 100% obvious that the only person who could have taken the money was our employee. There was no direct evidence, and they couldn't prove it. But that didn't stop them from letting everyone know that he was guilty. They put him through hell, literally. He couldn't get a decent job, they had people follow him, they questioned his neighbors, etc. They ruined his life. He started drinking, and basically washed out. His health went to hell in a handbasket, and he died young.

Years later, they replaced the night drop vault where we put the money bags every night. It had one of those swinging doors, sort of like a Post Office drop, but a lot heavier. There was a little space in behind the drop door, just big enough for a money bag - and there it was. It was a fluke that it had been caught just right and flipped up in there. But everyone was so sure that only one thing could have happened, and it was obvious. Maybe it changes your perspective when you see something like that up close.

So I appreciate the kind words, however they were intended. But it only took me a few days to wait for some of the actual facts to come out. I can't stop other people from talking (obviously), but I'm responsible for the things I say. And it's not a matter of trust or distrust for me, just an unwillingness to call a person a criminal without knowing the facts.

I'm curious, though. How many people do you think are in on the conspiracy? Is everyone who worked with the officer guilty by association? His supervisor? His supervisor's supervisor? I'm all for an investigation to get at the truth, but not so okay with a presumption of guilt.

I've said more than enough. I hope the whole investigation turns out the way you want.


----------



## Category6

Nitwp


----------



## BretE

Category5 said:


> Nitwp


Câ€™mon man, Iâ€™ve been in a deer stand all afternoon with my good buddy Tito. What the hell does nitwp mean?


----------



## dwilliams35

pocjetty said:


> .
> 
> I'm curious, though. How many people do you think are in on the conspiracy? Is everyone who worked with the officer guilty by association? His supervisor? His supervisor's supervisor? I'm all for an investigation to get at the truth, but not so okay with a presumption of guilt.
> 
> I've said more than enough. I hope the whole investigation turns out the way you want.


In on the conspiracy? Maybe one, maybe a handful. Bearing some level of complicity, even if itâ€™s just getting a gut feeling that somethings not right and not calling it out? Likely dozens... thatâ€™s the real problem: if this turns out to actually have happened the way itâ€™s rapidly headed toward, thereâ€™s no way he could have carried this out for so many years without SOMEBODY knowing something,and saying nothing. If so, theyâ€™re guilty too.


----------



## dwilliams35

BretE said:


> Câ€™mon man, Iâ€™ve been in a deer stand all afternoon with my good buddy Tito. What the hell does nitwp mean?


Newly Installed Toilet Wiping Paper.


----------



## BretE

dwilliams35 said:


> Newly Installed Toilet Wiping Paper.


Ah, makes perfect sense now, thx.....


----------



## rancher

According to Chronicle this guy has been screwing up since the mid 90's, yet he has remained in place doing the same thing over and over again. Those in the chain of command also need to be held accountable for failure to supervise and answer why this guy was at least transferred out of narcotics to another division. In the Navy went something like this happens heads roll from the top down. What say you Chief Wiggum


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## Hayniedude24

rancher said:


> I knew Chief Wiggum would solve this


Lol


----------



## Tigerhead52

> I'm curious, though. How many people do you think are in on the conspiracy?


I never said there was a conspiracy. I do believe his superiors were aware of his past actions and should have been giving more oversight on cases where he was involved. As far as how many people could be criminally implicated in this particular instance, I have no idea. Hopefully none.



> Is everyone who worked with the officer guilty by association?


Only if they were aware of the illegalities.



> His supervisor? His supervisor's supervisor?


If they were aware of the illegalities then they are complicit. If they were aware of past issues and were not reining him in, then they were not doing their job and should be reprimanded. If they were not aware of his past issues, then they are either new to the department (unlikely for a supervisor) or incompetent.



> I'm all for an investigation to get at the truth, but not so okay with a presumption of guilt.


I agree. All I'm saying is that based on what we already know, I believe this guy was allowed to conduct his business without proper oversight. That doesn't mean that anyone else is complicit, but certainly negligent. And to be clear, I'm not presuming guilt for any particular individual. But I am saying that it is nearly impossible for me to believe he could be running his business like this and no one know it.



> I've said more than enough. I hope the whole investigation turns out the way you want.


I don't "want" the investigation to turn out any way but thorough and truthful. If that happens I believe the department will have plenty to work on toward improving how it handles cases like this.



> So I appreciate the kind words, however they were intended.


I meant them exactly like I said them. I respect you for the type of posting you do on this board and certainly don't have an ax to grind with you. I stated my opinion when I said I thought certain things were obvious to me. I felt you were questioning how I came to that conclusion, so I used my assessment of you and your posts as an example of how I arrived at that decision. That's all.

I will share a story also. I was on a jury for a murder trial. An assistant DA was prosecuting the case. When it came time for her final statement to the jury, she looked at us and said this. "I want to explain the definition of reasonable doubt to you jurors because many people misunderstand the meaning. Reasonable doubt does not mean beyond any doubt. If it did we would never convict anyone. That's because the perpetrator gets to pick the time, the place, the witnesses, and so forth. So generally there are no eye witnesses or cameras present to prove guilt. So when we say reasonable doubt, we actually mean, is it reasonable, in your mind, based on testimonies and what evidence we do have, to believe this person committed this crime."

If my statements on this board had any bearing on this case or follow-up investigation, I certainly would not be saying some of the things I'm saying. But they don't. So my humble opinion is that it is reasonable to believe there is some culpability where others, probably his supervisors, are concerned.

Despite how it may sound, I am not a cop hater. My grandfather was a cop. I respect the badge. But as soon as I heard the first reports, and they stated that a 54 year old undercover officer, who had been shot twice in previous busts, refused to stand down and insisted on leading this raid? The first thing that popped into my mind was that he was what we call a "Cowboy" in my previous job. I hoped I was wrong but it's not looking like it.


----------



## Hayniedude24

rancher said:


> I knew Chief Wiggum would solve this


Lol


----------



## Whitebassfisher

Often in this type argument (cops good or bad?) we lose sight of a fundamental right, which is presumption of innocence. 

There are those on one side who will back a cop even after his own chief says he is guilty. The opposite side assumed the cops were evil right from the start.

But we are forgetting about the victims here. Many assumed that the married couple were guilty, because the cops said so. Since (IMO) most cops are good, probably a large percentage of the time the people they are after are breaking the law. But! .....

The example above with the armored car driver could also apply to the Tuttles. They were assumed guilty, and are now dead. In a no knock raid, it seems the police assume guilt, and a judge agrees and signs, and a no knock warrant is issued. 

But this signed document appears to cover the guilty. It somehow magically removes responsibility. Gerald Goines may be charged with lying on an affidavit, when in reality he is guilty of murder. Were the Tuttles dispensable? Is that collateral damage okay?

No knock raids seem to contradict completely something that our society generally assumes, which is that your home is your castle and you have rights to protect yourself while in it.


----------



## fy0834

I donâ€™t have a dog in this fight â€œother than the rule of lawâ€ being followed.

However, it appears after the internal investigation and the subsequent wrongful death suit filed on the Tuttleâ€™s behalf, and the adnasium tons of discovery of the entire matter (including the investigation itself) this MAY become clear...

All this ... IMO


----------



## SeaOx 230C

Whitebassfisher said:


> Often in this type argument (cops good or bad?) we lose sight of a fundamental right, which is presumption of innocence.
> 
> There are those on one side who will back a cop even after his own chief says he is guilty. The opposite side assumed the cops were evil right from the start.
> 
> But we are forgetting about the victims here. Many assumed that the married couple were guilty, because the cops said so. Since (IMO) most cops are good, probably a large percentage of the time the people they are after are breaking the law. But! .....
> 
> The example above with the armored car driver could also apply to the Tuttles. They were assumed guilty, and are now dead. In a no knock raid, it seems the police assume guilt, and a judge agrees and signs, and a no knock warrant is issued.
> 
> But this signed document appears to cover the guilty. It somehow magically removes responsibility. Gerald Goines may be charged with lying on an affidavit, when in reality he is guilty of murder. Were the Tuttles dispensable? Is that collateral damage okay?
> 
> No knock raids seem to contradict completely something that our society generally assumes, which is that your home is your castle and you have rights to protect yourself while in it.


A

:texasflag::texasflag:texasflag


----------



## Duckchasr

"No knock raids seem to contradict completely something that our society generally assumes, which is that your home is your castle and you have rights to protect yourself while in it." 

I think Whitebass fisher hit the nail on the head.
I think no knock warrant should only be used for hostage situations.


----------



## will-billy




----------



## rancher

Being lost in this fiasco is the fact that more and more police departments are succumbing to the concept know as militarization of the police. Instead of being part of the community they have become an occupation force in many neighborhoods. Sadly all of this is brought about by the war on drugs and the government giving military equipment to departments in a program call the 1033 program. Remember when you knew the policeman by name and he knew everything that went on in the neighborhood. Here are a couple of articles about the new police concept. By the way look how Houston Police are now wearing different uniforms to match all other departments.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/08/14/are-police-forces-excessively-armed/pol

www.cops.usdoj.gov/html/dispatch/12-2013/will_the_growing_militarization_of_our_police_d


----------



## Hunter.S.Tomson

Duckchasr said:


> "No knock raids seem to contradict completely something that our society generally assumes, which is that your home is your castle and you have rights to protect yourself while in it."
> 
> I think Whitebass fisher hit the nail on the head.
> I think no knock warrant should only be used for hostage situations.


Absolutely....i tried to imagine sitting in my own home minding my business relaxing after work. All of a sudden door bust open and guns blazing. If I'm an innocent man not involved in any type of crime, I'm protecting my house and spouse. Basically got murdered


----------



## Won Hunglo

Hunter.S.Tomson said:


> Absolutely....i tried to imagine sitting in my own home minding my business relaxing after work. All of a sudden door bust open and guns blazing. If I'm an innocent man not involved in any type of crime, I'm protecting my house and spouse. Basically got murdered


Absolutely. I will go down shooting too. If it is a bad guy, I might win. If it is the police, we both will lose. I imagine this scenario went like this:

Door kicked in, dog barks. Dog is lite up and smoked. Unarmed wife screams and jumps to cover. She is now a perceived threat so she is lite up and smoked. Guy in the back room thinks home invasion and arms himself with the only weapon he had. Using his military training he ambushes the "bad" guys coming around the corner. His superior position and training allows him to do heavy damage before he gets taken out. In the chaos too much attention is drawn to the scene. No one can go back to the patrol car to retrieve what was found as "un-inventoried" drugs as the back up plan. They do find a joint and some white powder in a flower bag located in the panty but it does not test positive with a field test kit for cocaine. It is reported as "suspicious ***********" to the media for damage control. Long forgotten about by now that the event has spiraled out of control.

Now we are at the point where the Chief needs to do his damage control to save his butt.


----------



## S-3 ranch

Duckchasr said:


> "No knock raids seem to contradict completely something that our society generally assumes, which is that your home is your castle and you have rights to protect yourself while in it."
> 
> I think Whitebass fisher hit the nail on the head.
> I think no knock warrant should only be used for hostage situations.


And if they are serving a warrant mandatory body armor and body cameras 
These cops are cowboys and thought they were above the law
They are going to have major legal issues both state and federal


----------



## smokinguntoo

Some similarities here with a policeman killed serving a no-knock warrant. The grand jury no-billed him. Somerville/Burleson County lost a good officer.

https://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines...Deputy-No-Billed-by-Grand-Jury-243993261.html

https://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines...Deputy-No-Billed-by-Grand-Jury-243993261.html

SG2


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## SeaOx 230C

Has there been any information released on what the actual weapon the Officers were shot with was? Surely medical reports would note that right? 


There was only long guns found in the house correct?


Surely the medical folks can tell if the gunshots are form a shotgun or rifle versus a hang gun.


----------



## barronj

"Houston officer lied in search warrant leading to drug raid that left 2 people dead, 5 officers hurt, affidavit says"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/18/us/officer-charged-deadly-houston-raid/index.html

A Houston police officer will "more than likely be charged with a serious crime" after lying in a search warrant for a January 28 drug raid in which two people were killed and five officers injured, the Houston police chief said.

Officer Gerald Goines obtained a search warrant by using an unnamed confidential informant to confirm that drugs were being sold in a Harding Street home, according to affidavits obtained by CNN. The affidavits, dated February 14, detail the investigation after the raid.
After the shooting occurred, Goines named informants to investigators, the affidavits state.
Those informants told authorities they had worked with the officer "in the past on several narcotics transactions," but not for the warrant at the Harding Street address, according to the affidavits.
"It appears there are some material untruths and lies" in Goines' initial search warrant affidavit for the home, HPD Chief Art Acevedo said.
Goines was one of the officers injured in the shooting. Nicole DeBorde, Goines' lawyer, told CNN her client was still undergoing medical treatment and that his jaw is wired shut. "That's why you're not hearing the other side. He's severely injured, he still can't speak clearly," DeBorde said. She also criticized the police chief's comments about the case, calling them irresponsible.
"No matter what we end up with here we know we have a criminal violation already -- and serious criminal violation -- by the individual that prepared that affidavit," Acevedo said in a Friday press conference.
"When we prepare a document to go into somebody's home ... it has to be truthful, it has to be honest, it has to be absolutely factual," he said, adding that there's a "high probability there will be a criminal charge."
The police chief said the extent of the crime and the policies that were violated are still being investigated.
When narcotics officers breached the front door of the Harding street home on the evening of January 28, gunfire rang out almost immediately.
One of the suspects retreated to the back of the room and re-emerged, returning fire. The second was shot while trying to wrestle a shotgun away from an officer. Both suspects were killed.
Four undercover narcotics officers were struck by gunfire, police said. A fifth officer suffered a knee injury, according to Acevedo.
Investigators found no heroin on the premises, but found marijuana and a white powder believed to be cocaine or the powerful prescription painkiller fentanyl, Acevedo had said. They also seized three shotguns and two rifles.
Goines will be relieved of duty when released from the hospital, according to Acevedo.


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## Profish00

That video speaks volume, to how this post tread was taken by some


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## capt. david

barronj said:


> "Houston officer lied in search warrant leading to drug raid that left 2 people dead, 5 officers hurt, affidavit says"
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/18/us/officer-charged-deadly-houston-raid/index.html
> 
> A Houston police officer will "more than likely be charged with a serious crime" after lying in a search warrant for a January 28 drug raid in which two people were killed and five officers injured, the Houston police chief said.
> 
> Officer Gerald Goines obtained a search warrant by using an unnamed confidential informant to confirm that drugs were being sold in a Harding Street home, according to affidavits obtained by CNN. The affidavits, dated February 14, detail the investigation after the raid.
> After the shooting occurred, Goines named informants to investigators, the affidavits state.
> Those informants told authorities they had worked with the officer "in the past on several narcotics transactions," but not for the warrant at the Harding Street address, according to the affidavits.
> "It appears there are some material untruths and lies" in Goines' initial search warrant affidavit for the home, HPD Chief Art Acevedo said.
> Goines was one of the officers injured in the shooting. Nicole DeBorde, Goines' lawyer, told CNN her client was still undergoing medical treatment and that his jaw is wired shut. "That's why you're not hearing the other side. He's severely injured, he still can't speak clearly," DeBorde said. She also criticized the police chief's comments about the case, calling them irresponsible.
> "No matter what we end up with here we know we have a criminal violation already -- and serious criminal violation -- by the individual that prepared that affidavit," Acevedo said in a Friday press conference.
> "When we prepare a document to go into somebody's home ... it has to be truthful, it has to be honest, it has to be absolutely factual," he said, adding that there's a "high probability there will be a criminal charge."
> The police chief said the extent of the crime and the policies that were violated are still being investigated.
> When narcotics officers breached the front door of the Harding street home on the evening of January 28, gunfire rang out almost immediately.
> One of the suspects retreated to the back of the room and re-emerged, returning fire. The second was shot while trying to wrestle a shotgun away from an officer. Both suspects were killed.
> Four undercover narcotics officers were struck by gunfire, police said. A fifth officer suffered a knee injury, according to Acevedo.
> Investigators found no heroin on the premises, but found marijuana and a white powder believed to be cocaine or the powerful prescription painkiller fentanyl, Acevedo had said. They also seized three shotguns and two rifles.
> Goines will be relieved of duty when released from the hospital, according to Acevedo.


Isn't CNN fake news?


----------



## rancher

BUZBEE Calls on Police Chief to Resign. Attached is link

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...yor-turner-to-seek-chief-acevedos-resignation


----------



## rancher

Police Chief Announces NO MORE NO KNOCK WARRANTS.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...-to-end-use-of-no-knock-warrants-13626158.php


----------



## StinkBait

Acevedo about to be live on the air with Koke-FM out of Austin. Will be interesting to see if he is cutting up with his old Austin buddies. POS

http://arn.leanplayer.com/KOKEFM


----------



## batmaninja

If Gerald Goins is charged with a crime, or found guilty of one, what will that do to the people that he has put in jail, and the ones awaiting trial? 

I dont see a direction this fiasco can move, with out the city losing dearly.


----------



## SeaOx 230C

batmaninja said:


> If Gerald Goins is charged with a crime, or found guilty of one, what will that do to the people that he has put in jail, and the ones awaiting trial?
> 
> I dont see a direction this fiasco can move, with out the city losing dearly.


Isn't he already involved of a couple of similar law suites?


----------



## troutalex33

*You know what this reminds me of ??*

TRAINING DAY with denzel washington .... think about it .
Almost the same ..... I wonder where that story came from ?


----------



## Whitebassfisher

SeaOx 230C said:


> Isn't he already involved of a couple of similar law suites?


Well, I easily found 2 situations in Goines history that really wave red flags.

Maybe it sounds naive, but why do honest cops allow these dishonest ones to continue? Supposedly good cops don't want us to "paint with a broad brush". But if you know a cop is a liar and a criminal and yet do nothing to stop him, are you a good cop?


----------



## rancher

It is called the Police Code of Silence and is part of the police culture that has been going on forever. Good article on it.

http://aele.org/loscode2000.html


----------



## EddieL

rancher said:


> Police Chief Announces NO MORE NO KNOCK WARRANTS.
> 
> https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...-to-end-use-of-no-knock-warrants-13626158.php


What will this do other than re-direct attention from the fact that this dirty cop (and I bet the rest were too or at least should have known) was going to go back in the house and plant the evidence (heroin) which he left in his car. This only shows me that there is systemic corruption in HPD. I wonder how many other raids that this cop went back in and 'planted' evidence. That is what most are missing in this case.

**** good thing he got shot and hope he never will be the same again. Sorry POS. Actually hope HPD cuts his benefits off and he suffers for the rest of his life.


----------



## fishinguy

There are going to be many implications because of this officers actions. Considering this investigator now has zero credibility there could be a good chance that many of the cases he was involved in have grounds to be over turned. There are also many current investigations that will likely go into the garbage.


----------



## HoustonKid

batmaninja said:


> If Gerald Goins is charged with a crime, or found guilty of one, what will that do to the people that he has put in jail, and the ones awaiting trial?
> 
> I dont see a direction this fiasco can move, with out the city losing dearly.


All of his cases and any he had a major role in the collection of evidence will be reviewed. If it turns out he lied, all cases will be dismissed.


----------



## dwilliams35

EddieL said:


> What will this do other than re-direct attention from the fact that this dirty cop (and I bet the rest were too or at least should have known) was going to go back in the house and plant the evidence (heroin) which he left in his car. This only shows me that there is systemic corruption in HPD. I wonder how many other raids that this cop went back in and 'planted' evidence. That is what most are missing in this case.
> 
> **** good thing he got shot and hope he never will be the same again. Sorry POS. Actually hope HPD cuts his benefits off and he suffers for the rest of his life.


The one thing I havenâ€™t really sorted out here is.....Why? Vendetta against the deceased for some reason? Random selection of this house since he guessed it would be easy to set up and thus uphill arrest stats? Not so random for the same reason, based on some other involvement with them? I just havenâ€™t seen much of an upside for him to go with the risk here, code of silence notwithstanding..


----------



## Hunter.S.Tomson

troutalex33 said:


> TRAINING DAY with denzel washington


That's exactly what I said


----------



## batmaninja

I read an article this morning (on Facebook) from the sister of a guy that Goins shot a few years ago. Apparently it was over the dead guy not letting Goins merge into traffic, while he was driving an unmarked car. The dead guy had his 6 year old kid in the car. The sister said with the new evidence on Goins they were going to see what they could do in the way of lawsuits. That is what prompted my post this morning, this ball is just starting to unravel. 

As far as motivation, I think the guy is a hot head. Wouldnt surprise me if he is on roids too.


----------



## EddieL

dwilliams35 said:


> The one thing I havenâ€™t really sorted out here is.....Why? Vendetta against the deceased for some reason? Random selection of this house since he guessed it would be easy to set up and thus uphill arrest stats? Not so random for the same reason, based on some other involvement with them? I just havenâ€™t seen much of an upside for him to go with the risk here, code of silence notwithstanding..


We may never know. Maybe he just didn't like ******. There can't be too many in that neighborhood. More likely, just something to do to justify their existence is my thought. Apparently he was a meathead as well. Either way karma caught up with him this time.


----------



## HoustonKid

EddieL said:


> We may never know. Maybe he just didn't like ******. There can't be too many in that neighborhood. More likely, just something to do to justify their existence is my thought. Apparently he was a meathead as well. Either way karma caught up with him this time.


There is always a why.


----------



## Imtheman

EddieL said:


> What will this do other than re-direct attention from the fact that this dirty cop (and I bet the rest were too or at least should have known) was going to go back in the house and plant the evidence (heroin) which he left in his car. This only shows me that there is systemic corruption in HPD. I wonder how many other raids that this cop went back in and 'planted' evidence. That is what most are missing in this case.
> 
> **** good thing he got shot and hope he never will be the same again. Sorry POS. Actually hope HPD cuts his benefits off and he suffers for the rest of his life.





HoustonKid said:


> There is always a why.


I really don't think it is that sinister. I just think he was lazy, incompetent and short sided. (and should be thrown under a jail somewhere)

I think the guy was just a crooked cop, that has been doing some good stuff and some shady stuff for a long time and didn't think this would be the sheeet show it became.

I imagine someone in the community did complain about the funky traffic coming in and out of the house, and he took that to heart and thought it was indeed a drug house. (when you're a hammer everything looks like a nail, and he is a narcotics cop and everything looks like a drug house). He figured he would write some paper on it and get the excitement of getting to kick a door down, figuring the occupants would lie down and submit. I imagine he thought it would be easy. A couple of older white people, not near as intimidating as some of the hood rats he has dealt with. The whole thing would be pretty easy and make for an exciting day.

I don't think they were ALL dirty cops, I think they were just following their "brother".


----------



## troutalex33

Really ??? you really think that no one else knew what this guys tactics were ... he was the "only " one ? The guy had a dirty record but everyone looked away ... so you actually think the others around him knew
nothing ? So , I work as a electrician and and I work around some "shady , unsafe electricians " before and I knew what they were about and how they cut corners and many times I refused to work along side of them . So , what your saying is he was surrounded by "innocent cops that were unaware of his tactics ?
Come on man ! I am also a combat marine veteran and I knew who was who back then . These guys knew what they were doing .... trust me .


----------



## Tigerhead52

I don't know a lot about how undercover cops work. But I can imagine he may have had an extra layer of concealment because he did work undercover. Maybe the majority of the department was not allowed to be privy to his business. Maybe his identity was even kept from some of his fellow non-undercover cops. Maybe HoustonKid can fill us in on how that usually works.

Meant to also say, whether or not other non-undercover officers knew how this guy operated is irrelevant. His superiors absolutely should have known and I would expect that his undercover cohorts would probably be at least somewhat aware also.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

dwilliams35 said:


> The one thing I havenâ€™t really sorted out here is.....Why? Vendetta against the deceased for some reason? Random selection of this house since he guessed it would be easy to set up and thus uphill arrest stats? Not so random for the same reason, based on some other involvement with them? I just havenâ€™t seen much of an upside for him to go with the risk here, code of silence notwithstanding..





HoustonKid said:


> There is always a why.


I asked the same "Why?" a few days ago, and HK said the same then. Obviously he won't tell us why, but there is a why.
It isn't racial, Goines is equally happy killing blacks or whites.

The 'code of silence' is strong, so strong that otherwise good cops turn their head about dirty cops and allow them to continue. It sounds pessimistic of me, but all indications are that there will forever be an 'us vs them' attitude between cops and law abiding citizens. I still think a majority are fairly decent cops, with their main problem being the stupid 'blue line' or 'code of silence.'

We know darn well that chief camera hound knew that Goines was dirty when he got in front of cameras and told us how great Goines was. And that Union guy knew too. After it became abundantly clear that the whole world was finding out about Goines finally after a career of corruption, suddenly camera hound changed his tune.

Realize though, all of you cops that are fairly good cops, your 'code of silence' 'thin blue line' is why so many hard working honest citizens are disgusted with you.


----------



## SeaOx 230C

They knew. It's not much different than any other work crews. Any one that has worked long term maintenance at the same plant has experienced this. We a 'll know guys that will do a.task without a permit. Or.maybe.without locking out the breaker or closing the valve 's. 

You work with and around the same people for any amount of time and you figure out who will always do the right thing. Who will most of the time. And who will blatantly violate the rules. 

Most folks won't confront the ones crossing the line.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

SeaOx 230C said:


> They knew. It's not much different than any other work crews. Any one that has worked long term maintenance at the same plant has experienced this. We a 'll know guys that will do a.task without a permit. Or.maybe.without locking out the breaker or closing the valve 's.
> 
> You work with and around the same people for any amount of time and you figure out who will always do the right thing. Who will most of the time. And who will blatantly violate the rules.
> 
> *Most folks won't confront the ones crossing the line.*


I want to stress that I agree with the above, it seems to be human nature, and is not limited to law enforcement. In many cases, such as your plant example, it can mean life or death just the same way it does with cops. Most of the time though when a cop is dirty, someone innocent is harmed at least to a degree, just by the nature of their job.


----------



## Southern Dreams

I agree with the statement too . If we get caught not locking out a valve at work we get fired and if it causes a life lose it would very bad. Same needs to be done with the cops we all have a job to do. I lost a old school mate Dennis and I run together back in school. I hope they fix the problem so no other family goes thru the same thing


----------



## HoustonKid

Whitebassfisher said:


> I asked the same "Why?" a few days ago, and HK said the same then. Obviously he won't tell us why, but there is a why.
> It isn't racial, Goines is equally happy killing blacks or whites.
> 
> The 'code of silence' is strong, so strong that otherwise good cops turn their head about dirty cops and allow them to continue. It sounds pessimistic of me, but all indications are that there will forever be an 'us vs them' attitude between cops and law abiding citizens. I still think a majority are fairly decent cops, with their main problem being the stupid 'blue line' or 'code of silence.'
> 
> We know darn well that chief camera hound knew that Goines was dirty when he got in front of cameras and told us how great Goines was. And that Union guy knew too. After it became abundantly clear that the whole world was finding out about Goines finally after a career of corruption, suddenly camera hound changed his tune.
> 
> Realize though, all of you cops that are fairly good cops, your 'code of silence' 'thin blue line' is why so many hard working honest citizens are disgusted with you.


I donâ€™t â€œknowâ€ the why. Do I have an idea of what the why is? Maybe, but not for me to lob accusations based on rumor. This code of silence you speak of is offensive to me and my coworkers. If someone is a bad apple, they wonâ€™t work with my team and will be outed. 
END OF STORY.


----------



## Captain Marty

HoustonKid said:


> All of his cases and any he had a major role in the collection of evidence will be reviewed. If it turns out he lied, all cases will be dismissed.


I see a lot of lawsuits coming!!


----------



## Won Hunglo

HoustonKid said:


> You bunch of aholes should stop making up BS conspiracy theories and wish these officers well after doing their job and doing it properly.
> 
> I know I said I was out but the level of stupidity is really amazing in here.
> 
> The men who saved the officers after being shot are heroes. Wait until you hear the full story.
> 
> Heroes. Absolute heroes.


Any updates on the officer's recovery?


----------



## barronj

That's the hard part about arguing on the internet. You say something, someone might bring that gem out later and rub your nose in it.


----------



## rancher

Those who deny that a CODE OF SILENCE does not exist at HPD is living in a fairyland where there are nothing but rainbows and butter flies. Let me bring a few names of the past that need to be googled and she how they were killed and what happened as a result. Fred Paez, Ida Delaney, and Byrum Gillum. I can get a lot more incidents involving officers and the code to silence but I will link a few articles for you to read and you decide.

https://www.texasobserver.org/crimes-unpunished/

http://forwardtimes.com/conspiracy-...ays-key-evidence-proves-wrongful-termination/

https://www.texasobserver.org/houston-police-dept-plagued-fresh-scandal-old-denial/

:headknock


----------



## HoustonKid

Won Hunglo said:


> Any updates on the officer's recovery?


Still recovering.



barronj said:


> That's the hard part about arguing on the internet. You say something, someone might bring that gem out later and rub your nose in it.


We still don't know if there was multiple bad apples or not. Where all of them in on it or was it a hey guys, we need to run a warrant, who can help???? Dunno.

If the ones who were simply doing their job not knowing the how they got the warrant, heroic actions helping what they believed to be another cop doing their job. If not, then I am certain it will come out.

Now if they should have even been in the house in the first place, well we all know where that appears to be headed.

In the end, I am confident the whole story will be known, people will be fired, some may end up in prison, some maybe paralyzed for the rest of their life, and two people are dead.

Anyway you slice it, it's a bad situation that one would hope won't happen again.


----------



## HoustonKid

So for now I have said all I can say. I will revisit this subject once the grand jury has met.


----------



## batmaninja

Can anyone say if the ladies mothers story about being the one that originally called the police is true or not?

I am not as big of a believer as some on here are in the code of silence. But there all of a sudden is an awful lot of silence around Goins. Despite Art and Joe being very talkative from the beginning.


----------



## barronj

photofishin said:


> I think what we can agree on is that there are 4 cops shot and another injured and we have a bunch of jr Internet detectives trying to create conspiracy theories making our uniformed officers look bad. Stop the BS and let people MUCH more qualified do their jobs.





photofishin said:


> Sorry but when you're the type to automatically assume the police are always at fault...YOU are what's wrong with America. Unlike you, I have a brain and use it. I don't, however spend all my time second guessing men and women in law enforcement and playing jr detective online, even after numerous law enforcement folks here show you how ignorant some of the comments here are. By the way, not that you'll read it because it'd dent your tinfoil hat- https://abc13.com/hpd-chief-acevedo-addresses-conspiracy-theorists/5114859/





photofishin said:


> There's a difference between asking questions and pushing the anti police rhetoric some here have shown. Having an automatic "cops are corrupt" button on your keyboard just shows how stupid you are. (If you're one who automatically assumes the police are in the wrong) You don't like that...California will definitely take your tax dollars...but we don't need that nonsense here.





photofishin said:


> Your whole premise is to question this whole raid as if you're some expert on law enforcement. You've done it numerous times in this thread. I'm not going to cut and paste the numerous times you've done it. Just look in the mirror and ask yourself...what qualifications do I have to second guess law enforcement? When you question the use of a CI, continuously push the rhetoric of the wrong house, question no knock warrants etc., it shows me you're just here to pound your chest and bash the police. I guarantee these cops didn't go to the house intending to get shot but they put their actual lives on the line daily and deserve respect for doing so....MUCH more than several people here seem to be giving them. Yes, that includes you mr jr detective.


photofishin, where you at dog? You were on this thread like a bird on seed, now you're on vacation or something?


----------



## Imtheman

troutalex33 said:


> Really ??? you really think that no one else knew what this guys tactics were ... he was the "only " one ? The guy had a dirty record but everyone looked away ... so you actually think the others around him knew
> nothing ? So , I work as a electrician and and I work around some "shady , unsafe electricians " before and I knew what they were about and how they cut corners and many times I refused to work along side of them . So , what your saying is he was surrounded by "innocent cops that were unaware of his tactics ?
> Come on man ! I am also a combat marine veteran and I knew who was who back then . These guys knew what they were doing .... trust me .


I have been VERY critical of HPD from the start (mostly vocal on a thread that mirrors this on a similar website familiar to many here). But it feels like â€œHey Guys, we need to run a warrantâ€ scenerio, although I do have a issue with that warrant being of the no-knock variety. Those canâ€™t (or shouldnâ€™t) be that common. But maybe the whole unit is corrupt. Itâ€™s happened in other cities. I donâ€™t want to believe that, but I donâ€™t believe in â€œThe War On Drugsâ€ and think the whole policy lends itself to corruption. (I believe the Portugal model should be studied by policy makers with no pre-conceived notions).


----------



## rancher

troutalex33 said:


> TRAINING DAY with denzel washington .... think about it .
> Almost the same ..... I wonder where that story came from ?


 This is the culture of HPD and the code of silence IT CANNOT BE DENIED. Attached are a few recent links for HPD OFFICERS CAUGHT IN FEDERAL DRUG STINGS. The bottom link is former Officer of the Year.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...D-officers-busted-on-drug-charges-4228885.php

https://abc13.com/news/houston-cop-arrested-in-drug-bust/275441/

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/na...iracy-tied-cartel-documents-article-1.2179875


----------



## Whitebassfisher

It seems true that a lot of this is due to the "war on drugs." I believe a lot of the reasoning behind no-knock is to prevent destroying evidence. By their nature, no-knocks are extremely dangerous. 



Human nature .... a balloon pops (or other noise) and we jump. However if you jump in a no-knock raid you are killed by the police, who can easily say they feared for their life. They also have that warrant, which makes it all legal. 



Hopefully, most no-knocks are actually necessary, but I would be guessing to say a percentage. The best answer I can come up with is that although the SCOTUS has made some rulings on no-knocks, that more clarification is needed. Too many innocent lives have been lost or destroyed in these raids, homeowners and LEO's.


Separate questions: Are there still 2 LEO's in the hospital? One was shot in face and had portions of jaw and tongue destroyed? One has a bullet near spine in neck and maybe paralyzed? Patients privacy is important, and maybe keeping that news down.


Was there a 357 revolver involved?


----------



## StinkBait

barronj said:


> photofishin, where you at dog? You were on this thread like a bird on seed, now you're on vacation or something?


He was just on 2cool this morning, he must have forgot about this fine thread full of cop haters.


----------



## Pistol58

dwilliams35 said:


> The one thing I havenâ€™t really sorted out here is.....Why? Vendetta against the deceased for some reason? Random selection of this house since he guessed it would be easy to set up and thus uphill arrest stats? Not so random for the same reason, based on some other involvement with them? I just havenâ€™t seen much of an upside for him to go with the risk here, code of silence notwithstanding..


I have been silently following along here, and came on today to ask this same question. Why?

The risk, IMO, does not outweigh the reward (whatever the "reward" was/is).

Do they get bonuses on drug busts?

Would have to be something of great value to risk not only your career but your life for.


----------



## barronj

I hope an honest cop inventoried the clothes/gear that Goines was wearing AND the vehicle he drove, assuming he drove his own uc Taurus or whatever he was issued. Think there'd be anything of interest there? A drop gun or bag of dope?

How many of his peers wish they'd spoken up before this tragedy? _ Somebody_ knew his MO.


----------



## fishinguy

StinkBait said:


> He was just on 2cool this morning, he must have forgot about this fine thread full of cop haters.


You have to give HK credit, even though he was completely wrong at the beginning of the thread, he didn't run off when the truth started coming out.

Charlie and Photo ran off about as fast as they could



CHARLIE said:


> The Police did their job and did it properly. This goes on most every day. I cannot believe some folks attitude.





photofishin said:


> we have a bunch of jr Internet detectives trying to create conspiracy theories making our uniformed officers look bad. Stop the BS and let people MUCH more qualified do their jobs.


----------



## Hunter.S.Tomson

Charlie and Photo ran off about as fast as they could[/QUOTE]

Well Charlie is 80 sooo


----------



## Gilbert

It's funny and sad now if you go back to start reading from page one. I knew something wasn't right from the beginning but I'm just a regular ol' cop hater.


----------



## fishinguy

Gilbert said:


> It's funny and sad now if you go back to start reading from page one. I knew something wasn't right from the beginning but I'm just a regular ol' cop hater.


Exactly, I'm not exactly an expert FBI profiler or investigator but this made no sense from the beginning.


----------



## andre3k

jetcycles said:


> Andre3k...I believe youâ€™ve been LEO for as long as we have been interacting online (early MH days) and I wanted to take the time to state that you have almost always been professional and courteous in your communications, even when communications break down and many others fail to retain the ability to do the same in return. I donâ€™t know your specific line of work within your department, but I have to imagine that youâ€™re the type of LEO that most of us would like to see; level headed and professional while retaining the ability to consider other viewpoints/opinions/scenarios than those that you know. I appreciate your service to the communities that you serve. I have a couple of curiosities that maybe you can entertain, no offense intended. First, how many dogs does HPD shoot in a year? Second, are there any statistics on the type of ammunition that is fired upon you guys? I ask because, as a long time hunter/marksman/enthusiast I realize I need the right round for the task at hand, but I imagine the average criminal turd shooting at other humans carries their firearm loaded with cheap FMJ ammo. Is this often the case, or do these guys tactfully prepare in the same manner that you or I would? Thanks in advance for entertaining my thoughts, stay safe out there my friend!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I haven't checked back here in a while. I wanted to respond to this and didn't want to give the impression I was ignoring you.

We used to shoot at a LOT of dogs, more so before we were issued tasers. But every year the number has been decreasing and its fairly infrequent now. I remember even a few years an officer shot a goat that charged him. 
It was so much of an issue statewide that TCOLE mandated a class on K9 encounters in order to get your intermediate peace officer certificate.

In regards to this incident. I'm surprised that a flash-bang wasn't used upon entry. One of the things you do during pre-warrant planning is to determine if dogs are on the property or inside the home you're about to hit. That way you can have a plan to deal with the dog beforehand. Typically, on a dynamic entry they would use a flash bang and that would pretty much always scare the **** out of the dog and send them running away. I have no idea why they didn't use one in this situation.

I currently supervise a gang unit so all of my cases are either dope or guns. Most of the guns we recover are filled with whatever the crook can get their hands on, mainly FMJ. But we see hollwpoints quite a bit as well, but I really can't give a consensus on what the crooks are shooting, its all over the place.

I will say that we recover a lot of guns chambered in 40sw. Probably just as many as 9mm. I think its simply because 40sw guns are so cheap right now. But among gang members they are choosing too carry AK or AR pistols more than anything else.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## FREON

Gilbert said:


> It's funny and sad now if you go back to start reading from page one. I knew something wasn't right from the beginning but I'm just a regular ol' cop hater.





fishinguy said:


> Exactly, I'm not exactly an expert FBI profiler or investigator but this made no sense from the beginning.


 Official Junior Internet Detective Badges are in the mail for you 2.:cheers:


----------



## batmaninja

andre3k said:


> I haven't checked back here in a while. I wanted to respond to this and didn't want to give the impression I was ignoring you.


Appreciate your contributions as well. Jet is/was spot on, "level headed and professional while retaining the ability to consider other viewpoints/opinions/scenarios than those that you know." I appreciate the view points that you bring and incites that you have.


----------



## TxDuSlayer

andre3k said:


> I haven't checked back here in a while. I wanted to respond to this and didn't want to give the impression I was ignoring you.
> 
> We used to shoot at a LOT of dogs, more so before we were issued tasers. But every year the number has been decreasing and its fairly infrequent now. I remember even a few years an officer shot a goat that charged him.
> It was so much of an issue statewide that TCOLE mandated a class on K9 encounters in order to get your intermediate peace officer certificate.
> 
> In regards to this incident. I'm surprised that a flash-bang wasn't used upon entry. One of the things you do during pre-warrant planning is to determine if dogs are on the property or inside the home you're about to hit. That way you can have a plan to deal with the dog beforehand. Typically, on a dynamic entry they would use a flash bang and that would pretty much always scare the **** out of the dog and send them running away. I have no idea why they didn't use one in this situation.
> 
> I currently supervise a gang unit so all of my cases are either dope or guns. Most of the guns we recover are filled with whatever the crook can get their hands on, mainly FMJ. But we see hollwpoints quite a bit as well, but I really can't give a consensus on what the crooks are shooting, its all over the place.
> 
> I will say that we recover a lot of guns chambered in 40sw. Probably just as many as 9mm. I think its simply because 40sw guns are so cheap right now. But among gang members they are choosing too carry AK or AR pistols more than anything else.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Am figuring we will have another mandated class in the next training cycle dealing with warrants/entries after all this


----------



## fishinguy

FREON said:


> Official Junior Internet Detective Badges are in the mail for you 2.:cheers:












I have submitted your paperwork as well


----------



## ralph7

batmaninja said:


> Appreciate your contributions as well. Jet is/was spot on, "level headed and professional while retaining the ability to consider other viewpoints/opinions/scenarios than those that you know." I appreciate the view points that you bring and incites that you have.


Know you meant insight.
Came out :biggrin:


----------



## StinkBait

Looking at his old cases now.

http://www.fox26houston.com/news/di...hes-1-400-cases-spanning-hpd-officer-s-career

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gilbert

StinkBait said:


> Looking at his old cases now.
> 
> http://www.fox26houston.com/news/di...hes-1-400-cases-spanning-hpd-officer-s-career
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cop hater


----------



## POC Fisherman

*1400 Cases Under Review*



Captain Marty said:


> I see a lot of lawsuits coming!!


Yes, a lot of lawsuits and drug dealers will be getting out jail.

https://abc13.com/hpd-raid-officers-1400-cases-under-district-attorney-review/5147320/


----------



## Whitebassfisher

fishinguy said:


> *You have to give HK credit, *even though he was completely wrong at the beginning of the thread, he didn't run off when the truth started coming out.
> 
> Charlie and Photo ran off about as fast as they could


I agree about HK. One of my post was fairly stern, but was aimed in general rather than at him. Something this big gets us all wound up. My point in the post I am talking about was a reminder than these huge majority of good guys take a hard hit when a bad one acts up. However, I am sure the officers think about this on a daily basis, and probably nothing I can say is new to them, they have already thought about it.

I don't know an answer about this code of silence thing. Nobody likes to snitch on a lazy co-worker. Their job is such a big deal though, I wish they would.

I will say that I am 64 and haven't lived a sheltered life, but can truthfully say I have never been personally wronged by a regular cop. One game warden was a butt head one time, but he probably just was having a bad day.


----------



## will-billy

pretty good video


----------



## Whitebassfisher

I posted this on the Spanish version 2 days ago, and no one cared. Maybe the same will happen here, but I found it interesting enough to post here too.


Dennis W Tuttle's facebook page was still showing last I looked. There was a picture of him holding a fish, and a Ryan Tuttle responded to the fish picture by saying "That's my Pop's!"


A son is not necessarily an indication of what the father was like, but ....



Ryan Tuttle's facebook page is interesting. I also found Ryan Tuttle's Linkedin page which showed this:


Ryan Tuttle
President & CEO at Threat Dynamics, LLC
Summary

SGT. Ryan Tuttle (retired) served in the Oregon Army National Guard as an 11B Infantryman for 8 years. His accomplishments include: Serving one tour in Iraq from 2004 to 2005, with over 400 combat operations including the Battle of An Najaf, the Battle of Fallujah, and over 30 combat Air Assault missions from Blackhawk helicopters. Tuttleâ€™s combat experience also includes operations in Sadr City, Tarmiyah, Taji & Baghdad Iraq.

SGT Tuttle also aided in security operations during the Hurricane Katrina relief efforts. As a Weapons Squad Leader, Tuttle participated in Scout training operations in (nationally) Oregon, Idaho, Louisiana, Georgia, Texas, (Internationally) Kuwait, Mongolia and Japan.

Tuttle has been professionally training Law Enforcement, Military and Civilians since 2009.

Other Certifications & Accomplishments:

Presidential Unit Citation â€“ Awarded for bravery in combat for the Battle of Fallujah
ARCOM with Valor â€“ Awarded for Valor under fire in the Battle of An Najaf
ARCOM â€“ For Combat action under fire for the Battle of An Najaf
Combat Infantrymanâ€™s Badge
Certifications:
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor # 183223496
NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Range Safety Officer
Utah Concealed Firearm Permit Certified Instructor # i102781
Threat Dynamics Master Level Instructor
- (Basic Pistol, Home Defense, Tactical Defensive Shooting & OR, UT & AZ CHL Instructor)


----------



## fishinguy

Whitebassfisher said:


> I posted this on the Spanish version 2 days ago, and no one cared. Maybe the same will happen here, but I found it interesting enough to post here too.
> 
> Dennis W Tuttle's facebook page was still showing last I looked. There was a picture of him holding a fish, and a Ryan Tuttle responded to the fish picture by saying "That's my Pop's!"
> 
> A son is not necessarily an indication of what the father was like, but ....
> 
> Ryan Tuttle's facebook page is interesting. I also found Ryan Tuttle's Linkedin page which showed this:
> 
> Ryan Tuttle
> President & CEO at Threat Dynamics, LLC
> Summary
> 
> SGT. Ryan Tuttle (retired) served in the Oregon Army National Guard as an 11B Infantryman for 8 years. His accomplishments include: Serving one tour in Iraq from 2004 to 2005, with over 400 combat operations including the Battle of An Najaf, the Battle of Fallujah, and over 30 combat Air Assault missions from Blackhawk helicopters. Tuttleâ€™s combat experience also includes operations in Sadr City, Tarmiyah, Taji & Baghdad Iraq.
> 
> SGT Tuttle also aided in security operations during the Hurricane Katrina relief efforts. As a Weapons Squad Leader, Tuttle participated in Scout training operations in (nationally) Oregon, Idaho, Louisiana, Georgia, Texas, (Internationally) Kuwait, Mongolia and Japan.
> 
> Tuttle has been professionally training Law Enforcement, Military and Civilians since 2009.
> 
> Other Certifications & Accomplishments:
> 
> Presidential Unit Citation â€" Awarded for bravery in combat for the Battle of Fallujah
> ARCOM with Valor â€" Awarded for Valor under fire in the Battle of An Najaf
> ARCOM â€" For Combat action under fire for the Battle of An Najaf
> Combat Infantrymanâ€™s Badge
> Certifications:
> NRA Certified Pistol Instructor # 183223496
> NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
> NRA Range Safety Officer
> Utah Concealed Firearm Permit Certified Instructor # i102781
> Threat Dynamics Master Level Instructor
> - (Basic Pistol, Home Defense, Tactical Defensive Shooting & OR, UT & AZ CHL Instructor)


I don't think that is the same person. That company operates out of Oregon, this guy was a long time Houston resident.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

fishinguy said:


> I don't think that is the same person. That company operates out of Oregon, this guy was a long time Houston resident.


Father and son. Dennis W Tuttle lived here and was killed. Dennis' son is Ryan, and is in Oregon.
Well, I am fairly certain that is the case.


----------



## fishinguy

Whitebassfisher said:


> Father and son. Dennis W Tuttle lived here and was killed. Dennis' son is Ryan, and is in Oregon.
> Well, I am fairly certain that is the case.


I think you are right that is his son. I think that might explain how he was able to do so much damage with the wheel gun.


----------



## ralph7

fishinguy said:


> I think you are right that is his son. I think that might explain how he was able to do so much damage with the wheel gun.


Which begs the question..
What type of gun did Tuttle use on the cops if there was no revolver or 9mm listed in the weapon inventory at the house?


----------



## POC Fisherman

*Married to Regi Rhogena Nicholas-Tuttle*



Whitebassfisher said:


> I posted this on the Spanish version 2 days ago, and no one cared. Maybe the same will happen here, but I found it interesting enough to post here too.
> 
> Dennis W Tuttle's facebook page was still showing last I looked. There was a picture of him holding a fish, and a Ryan Tuttle responded to the fish picture by saying "That's my Pop's!"
> 
> A son is not necessarily an indication of what the father was like, but ....
> 
> Ryan Tuttle's facebook page is interesting. I also found Ryan Tuttle's Linkedin page which showed this:
> 
> Ryan Tuttle
> President & CEO at Threat Dynamics, LLC
> Summary
> 
> SGT. Ryan Tuttle (retired) served in the Oregon Army National Guard as an 11B Infantryman for 8 years. His accomplishments include: Serving one tour in Iraq from 2004 to 2005, with over 400 combat operations including the Battle of An Najaf, the Battle of Fallujah, and over 30 combat Air Assault missions from Blackhawk helicopters. Tuttleâ€™s combat experience also includes operations in Sadr City, Tarmiyah, Taji & Baghdad Iraq.
> 
> SGT Tuttle also aided in security operations during the Hurricane Katrina relief efforts. As a Weapons Squad Leader, Tuttle participated in Scout training operations in (nationally) Oregon, Idaho, Louisiana, Georgia, Texas, (Internationally) Kuwait, Mongolia and Japan.
> 
> Tuttle has been professionally training Law Enforcement, Military and Civilians since 2009.
> 
> Other Certifications & Accomplishments:
> 
> Presidential Unit Citation â€" Awarded for bravery in combat for the Battle of Fallujah
> ARCOM with Valor â€" Awarded for Valor under fire in the Battle of An Najaf
> ARCOM â€" For Combat action under fire for the Battle of An Najaf
> Combat Infantrymanâ€™s Badge
> Certifications:
> NRA Certified Pistol Instructor # 183223496
> NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
> NRA Range Safety Officer
> Utah Concealed Firearm Permit Certified Instructor # i102781
> Threat Dynamics Master Level Instructor
> - (Basic Pistol, Home Defense, Tactical Defensive Shooting & OR, UT & AZ CHL Instructor)


You are right, he was married to Regi Rhogena Nicholas-Tuttle

https://www.facebook.com/dennisw.tuttle


----------



## rancher

FBI Has Launched Civil Rights Violation Investigation. All of those involved in the keystone cop raid better bend over and grab it now. My advice to them would be to lawyer up. More lives and families about to be ruined by the War on Drugs. I hope they also go from the top of the Narcotics Division. Those supervisor have blood on their hands also for having such a screw up remaining in that position for so long. Attached is link, just another example of the police culture and that code of silence.

https://news.yahoo.com/fbi-investigating-deadly-police-raid-houston-041740190.html


----------



## vdrivenman

*cowboy police shootingy*

haters gonna hate !!!!!


----------



## batmaninja

Is Gerald still being paid?

He has a good number of confirmed complaints against him, wonder how many more unconfirmed?

This article speaks to some of the road rage incidents he has been involved in. Very odd to me a LEO would be this juvenile on the roads. If I had to bet, he is on the steroids.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...won-t-do-More-allegations-emerge-13631088.php


----------



## Whitebassfisher

Realize the above attachment is old too. Any complaints that Goines may or may not have sustained after 06/06/2013 are not shown.


----------



## EddieL

rancher said:


> FBI Has Launched Civil Rights Violation Investigation. All of those involved in the keystone cop raid better bend over and grab it now. My advice to them would be to lawyer up. More lives and families about to be ruined by the War on Drugs. I hope they also go from the top of the Narcotics Division. Those supervisor have blood on their hands also for having such a screw up remaining in that position for so long. Attached is link, just another example of the police culture and that code of silence.
> 
> https://news.yahoo.com/fbi-investigating-deadly-police-raid-houston-041740190.html


So if I say that I don't trust the FBI either, will that make me a cop hater?


----------



## Lexy1

Whitebassfisher said:


> I asked the same "Why?" a few days ago, and HK said the same then. Obviously he won't tell us why, but there is a why.
> It isn't racial, Goines is equally happy killing blacks or whites.
> 
> The 'code of silence' is strong, so strong that otherwise good cops turn their head about dirty cops and allow them to continue. It sounds pessimistic of me, but all indications are that there will forever be an 'us vs them' attitude between cops and law abiding citizens. I still think a majority are fairly decent cops, with their main problem being the stupid 'blue line' or 'code of silence.'
> 
> We know darn well that chief camera hound knew that Goines was dirty when he got in front of cameras and told us how great Goines was. And that Union guy knew too. After it became abundantly clear that the whole world was finding out about Goines finally after a career of corruption, suddenly camera hound changed his tune.
> 
> Realize though, all of you cops that are fairly good cops, your 'code of silence' 'thin blue line' is why so many hard working honest citizens are disgusted with you.


"Code of silence", "buddy system", "you cover my six and I cover yours", etc ... these DO exist. Some of my COP buddies even talked/mentioned about them.


----------



## Imtheman

EddieL said:


> So if I say that I don't trust the FBI either, will that make me a cop hater?


Why would anyone?

Itâ€™s a agency who gained its power by strong arm, blackmail, and extortion under a J Edgar Hoover.

Many of its agents are plucked straight out of college with no law enforcement background, so they are essential a pure bureaucrat, with mandatory range time. And much of their science that they are so renowned for its nothing more than a pseudoscience dressed up with credentials. And I donâ€™t need to point any further than the CBLA ( â€œcomparative bullet lead analysisâ€) scandal to point that out.

Look at how they handled Ruby Ridge, Waco, 9-11, Hillary Clintonâ€™s handling of classified information, and the election of Trump.

Iâ€™m not that gung-ho on our FBI.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

This according to KHOU:

_Goines swore in search warrant affidavits that â€œknocking and announcing would be dangerous, futile,â€ because he claimed a confidential informant had seen a gun inside. Those claims led judges to grant no-knock warrants, which accounted for 96 percent of all the search warrants he filed in the last seven years, a KHOU 11 Investigation has found._
_But in every one of the more than 100 drug cases based off those warrants, thereâ€™s no record of Goines ever seizing a gun after executing a no-knock search warrant._

96% of his cases (which amounts to over 100) in the last 7 years were no-knock?

Not 1 gun ever inventoried in that time?

Apparently Goines gets off to no-knock raids like a 17 year old boy does to sex.
No guns? I hope KHOU did proper research. I consider it impossible to break into a 100 homes (or business) and *not* find guns! This is Texas.


----------



## gary.curlin

Whitebassfisher said:


> This according to KHOU:
> 
> _Goines swore in search warrant affidavits that â€œknocking and announcing would be dangerous, futile,â€ because he claimed a confidential informant had seen a gun inside. Those claims led judges to grant no-knock warrants, which accounted for 96 percent of all the search warrants he filed in the last seven years, a KHOU 11 Investigation has found._
> _But in every one of the more than 100 drug cases based off those warrants, thereâ€™s no record of Goines ever seizing a gun after executing a no-knock search warrant._
> 
> 96% of his cases (which amounts to over 100) in the last 7 years were no-knock?
> 
> Not 1 gun ever inventoried in that time?
> 
> Apparently Goines gets off to no-knock raids like a 17 year old boy does to sex.
> No guns? I hope KHOU did proper research. I consider it impossible to break into a 100 homes (or business) and *not* find guns! This is Texas.


Well that proves we don't need any gun control. If 100 bad ***** don't have guns I feel pretty safe. Lol

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


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## rancher

Name of his informant was Fuzzy Dunlop


----------



## batmaninja

https://www.click2houston.com/news/new-evidence-leads-to-arrest-in-child-sex-assault-case-from-2002

The guy with making the videos was arrested in McAllen.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Imtheman

rancher said:


> Name of his informant was Fuzzy Dunlop


I was explaining Fuzzy Dunlop a week ago to someone as I related him to this case.


----------



## will-billy

batmaninja said:


> https://www.click2houston.com/news/new-evidence-leads-to-arrest-in-child-sex-assault-case-from-2002
> 
> The guy with making the videos was arrested in McAllen.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


things that make you go hmm


----------



## Reloading

http://insidedp.com/news3/5654-man-wanted-for-sexual-assault-of-a-child-arrested-in-mcallen

Accused of sexually assaulting his own kids and it took this long?


----------



## Category6

Swell guy, no wonder he didnâ€™t like the police! POS


----------



## HoustonKid

batmaninja said:


> https://www.click2houston.com/news/new-evidence-leads-to-arrest-in-child-sex-assault-case-from-2002
> 
> The guy with making the videos was arrested in McAllen.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dooh. Poke the bear enough you will get bitten.


----------



## Imtheman

batmaninja said:


> https://www.click2houston.com/news/new-evidence-leads-to-arrest-in-child-sex-assault-case-from-2002
> 
> The guy with making the videos was arrested in McAllen.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is there a connection to this thread I am missing?


----------



## HoustonKid

Imtheman said:


> Is there a connection to this thread I am missing?


Only that the guy was making a lot of videos about the shooting and conspiracy therories about it. I guess if true maybe not conspiracies.


----------



## Captain Marty

*Two drug cases already dismissed*

https://abc13.com/man-arrested-by-hpd-officer-goines-gets-case-dismissed/5156066/


----------



## Whitebassfisher

Well, way back the DA decided to review 1,400 cases because of Gerald Goines.


Now another 800 cases must be reviewed because of Steven Bryant.


I have a few important questions that I hope are eventually addressed.
Was there ever a .357? If so, what happened to it? Did Dennis Tuttle even fire a gun that day? Were cops shot by friendly fire?


----------



## batmaninja

_In a search warrant for Bryant's phone data, an investigator with HPD's Special Investigations Unit wrote that Bryant told investigators he had retrieved two bags of heroin from the center console of Goines' police car at the instruction of another officer. That, however, was not consistent with the affidavit used to obtain the warrant for the Jan. 28 raid, in which Goines wrote that Bryant identified heroin brought out of the house._

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...cases-of-second-officer-involved-13661953.php

I think that it is good that they are going to the level of checking phone data on those involved. And of course the paper trail of warrants.

I dont see how there couldnt be at least some friendly fire in such close quarters, with shotguns.


----------



## ralph7

Whitebassfisher said:


> I have a few important questions that I hope are eventually addressed.
> Was there ever a .357? If so, what happened to it? Did Dennis Tuttle even fire a gun that day? Were cops shot by friendly fire?





ralph7 said:


> Which begs the question..
> What type of gun did Tuttle use on the cops if there was no revolver or 9mm listed in the weapon inventory at the house?


Yeah...


----------



## POC Fisherman

Whitebassfisher said:


> Well, way back the DA decided to review 1,400 cases because of Gerald Goines.
> 
> Now another 800 cases must be reviewed because of Steven Bryant.
> 
> I have a few important questions that I hope are eventually addressed.
> Was there ever a .357? If so, what happened to it? Did Dennis Tuttle even fire a gun that day? Were cops shot by friendly fire?


If the truth be known, Dennis Tuttle, never fired a shot. When Goines broke down the door, he shot the dog and then all hell broke loose. Two innocent people were killed. The four police officers were wounded by friendly fire.

Just my theory.


----------



## dwilliams35

ralph7 said:


> Yeah...


I guess now weâ€™re back into wild speculation mode.. weâ€™ll probably get the truth on it once it all goes through the wash: the cops involved are now on everybodyâ€™s suspicion list, and the brass is dang sure going to throw them under the bus rather than trying to cover it up now that itâ€™s gone this far. Just give 5e investigation time to play out, which isnâ€™t going to be until after a handful of them get convicted for a whole stack of civil rights violations or worse.


----------



## rancher

Yes all involved in that keystone cop raid should be at least convicted of federal civil rights violation. Those who organized and went along with the lies should also be convicted of MURDER in state court. Their actions lead to the innocent killing of two people who were inside their home. What would you do if you are sitting in your home, door gets bust open and suddenly men with guns suddenly appeared. Any reasonable person would do the same if armed protect yourself as these two did. Sadly nothing will be done to those in charge for failure to properly supervise these rogue cops. :headknock


----------



## will-billy

POC Fisherman said:


> If the truth be known, Dennis Tuttle, never fired a shot. When Goines broke down the door, he shot the dog and then all hell broke loose. Two innocent people were killed. The four police officers were wounded by friendly fire.
> 
> Just my theory.


 the cops that were at the back door likely rushed in shooting after hearing the dog get shot. has been floated as a possibility


----------



## barronj

too bad the cops weren't New York's finest, everyone might still be alive, and largely uninjured.


----------



## CHARLIE

Man really ? As I said early it the case there will be a investigation and we all will know. let it play out and we will see.


----------



## Imtheman

dwilliams35 said:


> I guess now weâ€™re back into wild speculation mode.. weâ€™ll probably get the truth on it once it all goes through the wash: the cops involved are now on everybodyâ€™s suspicion list, and the brass is dang sure going to throw them under the bus rather than trying to cover it up now that itâ€™s gone this far. Just give 5e investigation time to play out, which isnâ€™t going to be until after a handful of them get convicted for a whole stack of* civil rights violations* or worse.





rancher said:


> Yes all involved in that keystone cop raid should be at least convicted of *federal civil rights violation.* Those who organized and went along with the lies should also be convicted of MURDER in state court. Their actions lead to the innocent killing of two people who were inside their home. What would you do if you are sitting in your home, door gets bust open and suddenly men with guns suddenly appeared. Any reasonable person would do the same if armed protect yourself as these two did. Sadly nothing will be done to those in charge for failure to properly supervise these rogue cops. :headknock


I said this in another thread, but they were white, so there will be no federal charges. If they were black, it would have spurred rioting the very first day. Our community is so afraid of being labeled "anti-cop" we bend over backwards to be fair, in the face of any form of logic. (to the point of being naive)

AND, I'm not sure we should be so quick to throw charges to the Federal system. Let's just make the state system work. We should be very careful about delegating local criminals to the federal government.

What I want to know is, in the department, with all the warrants served, how many have been "no-nock" and why? I am very pleased with the departments decision to curtail this practice and hope ALL law enforcement agencies begin to follow suit. This has been going on far too long. If there is no immediate threat to life, don't go kicking in doors of somebody's house.


----------



## rancher

The incompetent Houston Police Dept. investigating themselves give me a break. They murdered two people and now are trying to cover it up. Who is going to be the sacrificial lamb Officer Goins what about the others who gave the green light? Don't they have blood on their hands also? This reminds me of the Code Red Order given in the movie a Few Good Men.:headknock


----------



## Buscadero

rancher said:


> The incompetent Houston Police Dept. investigating themselves give me a break. .:headknock


Are the Fed's also investigating ?


----------



## Wade Fisher

Buscadero said:


> Are the Fed's also investigating ?


Only if they think there was a Russian involved

Hard to get more worthless than HPD, but the FBI is trying


----------



## SeaOx 230C

CHARLIE said:


> Man really ? As I said early it the case there will be a investigation and we all will know. let it play out and we will see.


Surely you don't still think this was justified do you?


----------



## will-billy

rancher said:


> The incompetent Houston Police Dept. investigating themselves give me a break. They murdered two people and now are trying to cover it up. Who is going to be the sacrificial lamb Officer Goins what about the others who gave the green light? Don't they have blood on their hands also? This reminds me of the Code Red Order given in the movie a Few Good Men.:headknock


Acevedo has Kim Ogg to deal with, this is probably going to get a fair shake.

Them releasing the damaging phone records is a good sign.

Acevedo is also on record saying, falsifying a warrant is not a mistake, its a crime. Also said "you lie you die" (whatever that means)


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## CHARLIE

SeaOx 230C

Well who knows. Not all informants are trustworthy. Lets wait and see.


----------



## boom!

CHARLIE said:


> Not all informants are trustworthy. Lets wait and see.


Well according to Goines, they are trustworthy enough to warrant all of this to begin with........


----------



## CHARLIE

Come on Boom ever wonder if the so called "informant" didnt set the whole thing up I Dont have a clue lets let it all work out and then we will really know what has happened and how. (hopefully)


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## mudboat

Charlie,while I respect your wisdom it seems pretty clear 2 people that weren't outlaws are dead and four cops were shot.The outcome is almost irrelevant at this time due to incompetence and speculation of HPD officials they let down the average beat cop and all the victims involved.


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## HoustonKid

Feds are investigating. Like I said before, 2 people are dead, 4 cops have been shot. Cops are going to loose their jobs, some will be suspended, some will go to jail.

We can hope lessons are learned and this event is not repeated. This is by far and away a long way away from being done. It will not get buried and go away quietly. It will have a major impact on the day to day operations of HPD especially when it comes to the acquisition and service of search and arrest warrants as it should.


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## mudboat

HoustonKid,Thank You for your insight on this topic and the hangy downies to continue to post I think you understand now how someone can question officers and still be PRO LEO.


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## rancher

All of this is the disease call the police culture that has been running amok for a very long time within the Houston Police Department. The police turn a blind eye to their own and hope no bad press ever is broadcasted about them. However let us remember just a few recent incidents involving police officers and narcotics, Former Houston Police Officer Noe Juarez convicted of drug trafficking for the Zetas crime organization. Former Houston Police Emerson Canizales and Michael Miceli were charged on two counts of possession of cocaine with intent to distribute. Former Houston Police Officer Anthony Foster convicted of running drug money as a courier for an organization that laundered as much as $27 million collected from around the United States. AND NOW WE HAVE MURDER. Is this any better than the current conditions in Mexico. Yet the Sergeants, Lieutenants and Captains of these divisions just keep going and giving the code red orders just like Colonel Jessup.


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## rancher

Chief Wiggum will find out if Colonel Jessup gave the code red order.


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## barronj

since I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how to imbed, here's a URL for anyone wondering who Chief Wiggum is


----------



## dwilliams35

rancher said:


> All of this is the disease call the police culture that has been running amok for a very long time within the Houston Police Department. The police turn a blind eye to their own and hope no bad press ever is broadcasted about them. However let us remember just a few recent incidents involving police officers and narcotics, Former Houston Police Officer Noe Juarez convicted of drug trafficking for the Zetas crime organization. Former Houston Police Emerson Canizales and Michael Miceli were charged on two counts of possession of cocaine with intent to distribute. Former Houston Police Officer Anthony Foster convicted of running drug money as a courier for an organization that laundered as much as $27 million collected from around the United States. AND NOW WE HAVE MURDER. Is this any better than the current conditions in Mexico. Yet the Sergeants, Lieutenants and Captains of these divisions just keep going and giving the code red orders just like Colonel Jessup.


Dude, enough already. Thereâ€™s 5000 plus officers in HPD. Find a group of 5000 ANYTHING without some bad apples. The fact that you know about them means they got weeded out. Yes, HPD has some problems, just like any police force. The â€œcode of silenceâ€ exists and occasionally goes well over the line. Meanwhile, thereâ€™s a lot of good cops in the force, a lot of them working to get rid of those bad apples, and your rants are pretty stupidly using a single blanket to cover them all with a single â€œcorruptâ€ label. Enough with the assholishness here. If you have proof of corrupt cops that someone else hasnâ€™t already done all the work to expose, them man up and out with it. Until then, enough already, youâ€™re just being a jackass. Join the discussion about them, fine... just enough with the stupid unfounded accusations.


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## will-billy

dwilliams35 said:


> Dude, enough already. Thereâ€™s 5000 plus officers in HPD. Find a group of 5000 ANYTHING without some bad apples. The fact that you know about them means they got weeded out. Yes, HPD has some problems, just like any police force. The â€œcode of silenceâ€ exists and occasionally goes well over the line. Meanwhile, thereâ€™s a lot of good cops in the force, a lot of them working to get rid of those bad apples, and your rants are pretty stupidly using a single blanket to cover them all with a single â€œcorruptâ€ label. Enough with the assholishness here. If you have proof of corrupt cops that someone else hasnâ€™t already done all the work to expose, them man up and out with it. Until then, enough already, youâ€™re just being a jackass. Join the discussion about them, fine... just enough with the stupid unfounded accusations.


this cop had been there for decades, you tell me how many people you've worked with for decades that were able to hide their true identities? This was a culture not a incident


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## dwilliams35

will-billy said:


> this cop had been there for decades, you tell me how many people you've worked with for decades that were able to hide their true identities? This was a culture not a incident


 Again, 5000 cops. How many of them even knew his name, much less were close enough to him to â€œknow his true identityâ€? Youâ€™re painting the whole force with that brush, and itâ€™s undeserved.


----------



## Rockfish2

dwilliams35 said:


> Again, 5000 cops. How many of them even knew his name, much less were close enough to him to â€œknow his true identityâ€? Youâ€™re painting the whole force with that brush, and itâ€™s undeserved.


Youâ€™re right, but unfortunately the bad actions of a few can often taint the good actions of everyone else. Itâ€™s not fair, of course, but it happens. Thatâ€™s why good cops hate bad cops - they hurt everyoneâ€™s reputation, make doing the job harder and put lives at risk.


----------



## rancher

One corrupt cop is one too many. However corruption seems to be endemic at HPD. Therefore you have the police culture and the code of silence. I would classify it as a lack of training starting at the police academy when you start your training. It starts with an officer getting a free meal or half price meal that the general public does not get. Then they get police discount at places. I can tell when a place lets police eat free by the large number of police cars in the parking lot. Is this ethical I think not. I know for a fact that DPS does not allow their troopers to accept anything. I am still waiting to see what happens to those in charge of the narcotics division. Where are the supervisors are they absent on duty. Is there no supervision at HPD are the police just on the streets doing what they want. Those at the top must be held accountable for the MURDER of TWO CITIZENS. We are not a third world country.:headknock


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## rancher

To quote Colonel Jessup

YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH


----------



## troutalex33

*heres another example*

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc13....cused-of-stealing-drugs-out-on-bond-/2628540/
This officer was internally investigated and caught and charged . But the officers in question for some reason were never investigated to this degree . I have to agree that some cops are not to blame for these
" bad apples" but you have to admit with the officers in question rap sheet shows this goes beyond a "code of silence " . In the Marine Corps our code of silence existed but not to ever harm innocent people . Ourjob was to protect and defend those that could not for themselves . Not bully into a house with shady intentions and carry your evidence in your police car to leave behind ...... Now that HPD is trying to distance these "few bad cops " why are they not shown on who they are ??? I mean if you or I broke the law wouldnt our faces be plastered on ever tv channel . They are no longer part of the "squad " are they ? Why the special privelge of secret identity ? Are they ever really going undercover again ? Or is HPD scared if the public will recogonize them and more cases will be filed against them .
Just my opinion !


----------



## CHARLIE

Boom

For some reason my PM wont work. We are good no issues.I just have issues with Jr. Detectives who have all the answers before investigations are over. Things like these just really show how lot of folks feel about cops. But most all Cops know and accept this and continue to try and do their work .Lets have some oysters one of these days.


----------



## Imtheman

CHARLIE said:


> Boom
> 
> Things like these just really show how lot of folks feel about cops. But most all Cops know and accept this and continue to try and do their work .Lets have some oysters one of these days.


You have a faith in government institutions that I can't share, I'll give you that.

Why such blind trust? I don't have faith or trust in ANYONE be it a cop, priest, politician or indian chief. There should be some scepticism of positions of power within us all. It keeps us safe and the powerful in check.

Most recognize cops as human and while my heart wants to believe man as an inherently good , my experience has shown me otherwise. Man is corruptible and people should demand accountability form anyone entrusted with power over other. The fact that people are out there willing to put man on a man on a pedestal over some weird form of patriotism attached to LEO, is very unsettling, and taken to far could be a real danger to the Republic.


----------



## CHARLIE

imtheman

Well I guess you really didnt see what I said. I only said let the investigation run its course
and let the chips fall where they may. Sorry you seem to have already in place skepticism about most issues. I try and see good in people unless proven otherwise. Try being a cop maybe if you really want to be skeptical.


----------



## SeaOx 230C

Anybody else find it interesting that there seem to be two camps these days?

One extreme says ALL Government is great and good and we need more more more.... *except LE and Military*. They say LE and the Military is not to be trusted at all. Some would like to see it gone or at least gut capability.

The other extreme says ALL Government is bad and corrupt and we need less less less... *except for LE and Military*. And are perfectly OK with going so far as arming the local LE with military grade equipment.

The Founders warned against those extremes in their writings. Folks can call me a cop hater, JR detective or un-American all they want. I will always question, the Founders told us to. They told us not to trust on face value anything any part of the Government does. I think that is pretty sound advice. In fact if you read some of it you will end up think Wow, how did way back then they know what would be happening today?


----------



## mudboat

Jr.detective here,maybe they can get Chad Scott from DEA to investigate when his trial is over.


----------



## Leo

Officer Bryant retired effective tomorrow according to channel 13


----------



## HoustonKid

Leo said:


> Officer Bryant retired effective tomorrow according to channel 13


That puts the administrative side to bed for him but I am guessing the criminal side has a long long long way to go.


----------



## rancher

Once again this shows how we have a double standard. This officer has destroyed others life's with his lies and now he wants to walk away like nothing happen. He should not be allow to retire until he is cleared by a Federal and State Grand Jury. But this will not happen. Hopefully he will be charged in both Federal and State Court for his civil rights violations. Sadly these officers have a golden parachute built into their pension system know as the DROP PROGRAM. I have heard many police officers brag that they do not want to retire until they have a million dollars in their drop account. According to them they can use the drop account any way they want and still draw a good retirement. I was told that if you talk to an officer who has been on over 20 years ask him about his drop account. I was recently told about one officer who retired with close to 2 million in his drop account.


----------



## rancher

Chronicle just reporting that two more narcotics officers quietly retired with one being the longtime partner of Goins. These guys are grabbing that golden parachute know as their DROP and running. All involved should not be allowed to retire. That should be denied them because of the criminal activity involved.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...cotics-officer-under-13671579.php?cmpid=trend


----------



## HoustonKid

Rancher, retiring has nothing to do with the criminal case. They will face the piper when the time comes. I really don't get the mad about retiring part. Yes, their retirements are in place and I have no clue how a criminal case will affect them receiving retirement but requiring them to stay on the job holds no merit.

I understand the frustration over the entire situation but if they worked long enough to retire, requiring them to stay on the job, which you cannot do, achieves nothing.


----------



## offshorefanatic

HoustonKid said:


> Rancher, retiring has nothing to do with the criminal case. They will face the piper when the time comes. I really don't get the mad about retiring part. Yes, their retirements are in place and I have no clue how a criminal case will affect them receiving retirement but requiring them to stay on the job holds no merit.
> 
> I understand the frustration over the entire situation but if they worked long enough to retire, requiring them to stay on the job, which you cannot do, achieves nothing.


Straight up murdering 2 people and their dogs should affect their retirement...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## barronj

offshorefanatic said:


> Straight up murdering 2 people and their dogs should affect their retirement...


Piggybacking on offshorefanatic's response to HoustonKid's question, if your retirement was dependent on your leaving the force (retiring) absent any imminent criminal investigations in to your actions as a cop, actions that affected cases you'd worked, that *might* keep a veteran with a large DROP account on the straight and narrow.


----------



## Rockfish2

rancher said:


> Chronicle just reporting that two more narcotics officers quietly retired with one being the longtime partner of Goins. These guys are grabbing that golden parachute know as their DROP and running. All involved should not be allowed to retire. That should be denied them because of the criminal activity involved.
> 
> https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...cotics-officer-under-13671579.php?cmpid=trend


The terms of most LEO retirements, including whether an LEOâ€™s retirement benefits can be affected by a conviction, misconduct on the job, etc., are generally governed by state/local law. You canâ€™t change whatever that agreement is after the fact, but you can pressure the legislature/city council/county commissioners, etc. to change the law for future cases.


----------



## will-billy

HoustonKid said:


> Rancher, retiring has nothing to do with the criminal case. They will face the piper when the time comes. I really don't get the mad about retiring part. Yes, their retirements are in place and I have no clue how a criminal case will affect them receiving retirement but requiring them to stay on the job holds no merit.
> 
> I understand the frustration over the entire situation but if they worked long enough to retire, requiring them to stay on the job, which you cannot do, achieves nothing.


come on everyone smells the stitch, you included


----------



## Whitebassfisher

HoustonKid said:


> Rancher, retiring has nothing to do with the criminal case. They will face the piper when the time comes. I really don't get the mad about retiring part. Yes, their retirements are in place and I have no clue how a criminal case will affect them receiving retirement but requiring them to stay on the job holds no merit.
> 
> I understand the frustration over the entire situation but if they worked long enough to retire, requiring them to stay on the job, which you cannot do, achieves nothing.


I am not sure about others, but my disgust at their retirement doesn't mean I actually want them to stay on the job. I will call it an "agreement" between LEO's and the agency they work for. If the agreements are not this way now, all new hires from this point forward should have agreements this way:
If the LEO in his official capacity lies on a legal document, commits perjury, fabricates evidence, things of this nature, then his/her employment benefits should be in jeopardy, in addition to the normal criminal laws applied.

Considering how LEO's have so much power in their ability to totally ruin lives forever by breaking these rules, the consequences need to be strict.

However, Internal Affairs or the DA couldn't strip these benefits on their own, it would have to be the result of a criminal trial finding the LEO guilty of breaking those laws.


----------



## boom!

How about any monetary losses to the city through criminal actions of LEO's comes out of the collective retirement of officers that are serving. That will give a little incentive to cull out the bad actors. Add to that, upon conviction the convicted LEO's retirement goes into the collective fund...


----------



## Imtheman

barronj said:


> Piggybacking on offshorefanatic's response to HoustonKid's question, if your retirement was dependent on your leaving the force (retiring) absent any imminent criminal investigations in to your actions as a cop, actions that affected cases you'd worked, that *might* keep a veteran with a large DROP account on the straight and narrow.


So, they contribute to a retirement plan in lieu of Social Security, right? So how would they collect SS?

As a society, we won't let them starve, so how does this work in your head or in reality?

(Serious question. I'm not against them losing Retirement, I just trying to understand what it really would looks like)


----------



## boom!

Imtheman said:


> So, they contribute to a retirement plan in lieu of Social Security, right? So how would they collect SS?
> 
> As a society, we won't let them starve, so how does this work in your head or in reality?
> 
> (Serious question. I'm not against them losing Retirement, I just trying to understand what it really would looks like)


Well since they will most likely be in prison, they won't need SS. There is also the welfare system. I just think that it is bullchit that taxpayers get stuck with the financial penalties and they get their pensions no matter what. Public officials convicted of felonies should loose everything.


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## Imtheman

boom! said:


> Well since they will most likely be in prison, they won't need SS. There is also the welfare system. I just think that it is bullchit that taxpayers get stuck with the financial penalties and they get their pensions no matter what. Public officials convicted of felonies should loose everything.


Heâ€™s you KNOW he wonâ€™t go to prison for life. Heâ€™ll be there a couple of years st most, so now what.

Criminal or not, he put money in. You want to refund all his contribution and keep anything the department matched or grew, ok. But I donâ€™t know how that works.

You take his money and donâ€™t ever realase it is that also theft?

If I was magic and not beholden to law???? I would give him back his contribution , because I donâ€™t think keeping it is right, but I wouldnâ€™t protect it from civil suits. The people he lied about deserve the ability to sue and collect.


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## boom!

Imtheman said:


> Heâ€™s you KNOW he wonâ€™t go to prison for life. Heâ€™ll be there a couple of years st most, so now what.
> 
> Criminal or not, he put money in. You want to refund all his contribution and keep anything the department matched or grew, ok. But I donâ€™t know how that works.
> 
> You take his money and donâ€™t ever realase it is that also theft?
> 
> If I was magic and not beholden to law???? I would give him back his contribution , because I donâ€™t think keeping it is right, but I wouldnâ€™t protect it from civil suits. The people he lied about deserve the ability to sue and collect.


For all of the money, fines and prison time for the innocent people that are jailed, isnâ€™t that theft as well? In my 55 years on this rock, I have never heard anyone worried about what happens to a criminal as far as losing their money, SS, etc. Criminals are criminals period. Did the Enron executives lose their golden parachutes when convicted? If not, they **** sure should have. A cop that is CONVICTED of a felony should lose everything. If he/she doesnâ€™t care what happens to his pension/family, etc then why the hell should I?

Police confiscate cash, cars, houses, anything of value from criminals. Why should these criminals be exempt just be cause they performed their felonies while wearing a badge and on the city/state payrolls?

There is a saying that cops love..... if youâ€™ve done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

Jut the way I see it anyway.


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## Whitebassfisher

Different types of benefit plans vary. I have no idea how HPD plans work.


Many people have 401(k), but pensions are becoming a thing of the past.


Whether they have a 401(k) or not, I don't know. I mean savings that the employee (cop) put away, and possible matching by the department. To me, this belongs to the cop, no matter what. I am talking the type plan where an employee can quit and get it, and transfer it to a new job and continue saving.



However, if they have a government funded pension, which is entirely received after retirement, this may not should be paid out if they break certain laws. They should be fired rather than retire, so they don't get retirement. 



I can't think of a much better way to encourage honesty in their work.


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## MarkU

I would think this cop is going to have a few Civil cases filed against him. Hopefully those wronged, will get their fair share of his assets, including his retirement.


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## rancher

I know this much from some friends how have retired from the Houston Police Dept. They retire get a great pension that has a built in cost of living each year. They have a golden parachute known as DROP, most have close to 1 million in that account when they pull the plug. Most go to work for another agency and once vested get another pension mainly from a state or local agency. In the meantime they have worked extra jobs all their law enforcement careers and paid social security. Thus they will qualify for SS once they reach qualified retirement age. Not a bad gig. Lots of government pension money going to them plus that golden parachute.


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## Imtheman

MarkU said:


> I would think this cop is going to have a few Civil cases filed against him. Hopefully those wronged, will get their fair share of his assets, including his retirement.





boom! said:


> For all of the money, fines and prison time for the innocent people that are jailed, isnâ€™t that theft as well? In my 55 years on this rock, I have never heard anyone worried about what happens to a criminal as far as losing their money, SS, etc. Criminals are criminals period. Did the Enron executives lose their golden parachutes when convicted? If not, they **** sure should have. A cop that is CONVICTED of a felony should lose everything. If he/she doesnâ€™t care what happens to his pension/family, etc then why the hell should I?
> 
> Police confiscate cash, cars, houses, anything of value from criminals. Why should these criminals be exempt just be cause they performed their felonies while wearing a badge and on the city/state payrolls?
> 
> There is a saying that cops love..... if youâ€™ve done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about.
> 
> Jut the way I see it anyway.


OJ Simpson still has all his retirement money from the NFL that couldn't be touched in a civil suit.

I assume that, that protection is pretty common (retirement being shielded from lawsuit judgements).

Which is why I said it like I said it.

Nobody is getting much from a convicted cop, they will sue the department, but I'd like to see the cop on the hook for some of it. I wouldn't steal his money, I would like to see it unprotected though.


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## Lovin'Laura

Any updates? Where be HoustonKid and Photofishin'? They've gone quiet.


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## Whitebassfisher

ROCKPORTJACK said:


> Any updates? Where be HoustonKid and Photofishin'? They've gone quiet.


In all fairness, they shouldn't be lumped together. Sure, I await updates, and my main questions could have been answered long ago. But, no answers.


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## andre3k

rancher said:


> I know this much from some friends how have retired from the Houston Police Dept. They retire get a great pension that has a built in cost of living each year. They have a golden parachute known as DROP, most have close to 1 million in that account when they pull the plug. Most go to work for another agency and once vested get another pension mainly from a state or local agency. In the meantime they have worked extra jobs all their law enforcement careers and paid social security. Thus they will qualify for SS once they reach qualified retirement age. Not a bad gig. Lots of government pension money going to them plus that golden parachute.


HPD's pension is 55% of your last 3yrs average salary. OT doesn't count into that three year average buts there no OT anyway.

DROP is a joke now but better than nothing, I guess. The guys that were able to retire with that million dollar DROP account screwed it for everyone else, because it wasn't fiscally sustainable.

If they stayed long enough to get a million in DROP then they aren't working for another agency to get another pension. Most of the guys with those huge accounts stayed around 30+ years to get there.

The vast majority of EJ's are 1099, in which your not contributing to social security.

HFD, on the other hand gets 80% of their highest 72 pay periods which includes overtime. And they can work a lot of OT because of their staffing rules.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## rancher

In the case of Officer Goins he had according to reports 34 years of service. He had a good DROP account. I bet in excess of 1 million. DROP is a golden parachute a great rate of return according to those retired officers willing to admit it. I also know a lot of retired HPD officers now working for various Sheriffs Depts. in small counties and for various school districts being kiddie cops. The will qualify for another pension from the State of Texas with just a few years of service. If you work an extra job and get a 1099 you must pay social security and medicare tax. Failure to claim this will result in a visit to the IRS office. Unless you are working a cash extra job at a bar like some do. Here is an article about an officer who learned the hard way when he did not claim or forgot to claim his 1099. As I said not a bad gig.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/moonlighters-must-pay-self-employment-taxes.html


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## Ethan Hunt

ROCKPORTJACK said:


> Any updates? Where be HoustonKid and Photofishin'? They've gone quiet.


did they said something you dont agree with?

Or just feel like trolling?


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## ReedA1691

andre3k said:


> HFD, on the other hand gets 80% of their highest 72 pay periods which includes overtime. And they can work a lot of OT because of their staffing rules.


Is that still the case since their pension was "rolled" into the overall City pension fund?


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## HoustonKid

ROCKPORTJACK said:


> Any updates? Where be HoustonKid and Photofishin'? They've gone quiet.


Were you banned under another name and came back as this one? 3 posts? :smile:I am right here. Nothing to report so nothing to say.

My last post on this topic was 03/07/19 so if 7 days makes me MIA, guilty, guilty, guilty.

Post something worth while or worthy of comment, maybe a comment will be made.


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## Hunter.S.Tomson

One thing that I'm sure was brought up somewhere in the hundreds of posts, is, why the Tuttle's?


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## Whitebassfisher

Hunter.S.Tomson said:


> One thing that I'm sure was brought up somewhere in the hundreds of posts, is, why the Tuttle's?


WHY? is one of my main questions too.
Also:

Was there any type of handgun in the Tuttle residence?
Did Tuttle or his wife shoot a gun? (They can tell from testing hands) 
If not, all damage was friendly fire.

Very likely there truly was 1/3 of an ounce of pot as mentioned, but was there truly a small amount of white powder drug, coke?

I would like to see the SCOTUS revisit no-knock warrants. In this great country, we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. During a no-knock raid, anyone in the house is considered guilty until proven innocent, if they live long enough to do that. There is a lot that can be learned from this tragedy if it is handled correctly. I sure hope it hasn't just been swept away to forget about.


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## pocjetty

rancher said:


> In the case of Officer Goins he had according to reports 34 years of service. He had a good DROP account. I bet in excess of 1 million. DROP is a golden parachute a great rate of return according to those retired officers willing to admit it. I also know a lot of retired HPD officers now working for various Sheriffs Depts. in small counties and for various school districts being kiddie cops. The will qualify for another pension from the State of Texas with just a few years of service. If you work an extra job and get a 1099 you must pay social security and medicare tax. Failure to claim this will result in a visit to the IRS office. Unless you are working a cash extra job at a bar like some do. Here is an article about an officer who learned the hard way when he did not claim or forgot to claim his 1099. As I said not a bad gig.


Police and Fire Departments across the state abused the hell out of the pension systems. I know that for 100% fact, and have some direct knowledge. (That's all I can say about it.) They did things like pay themselves "13th month" checks. Some departments held certain positions "open", and some officers got bogus promotions in their last year or two, to jack up their post-retirement payments. The good ole boys in charge of the systems had "meetings" that were really crazy blowout parties, including some of the best entertainment money could rent. (Which they had to basically launder money to pay for.) Then a number of them complained that they are underfunded, and need public money to bail them out.


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## Liv'n_the_dream

pocjetty said:


> Police and Fire Departments across the state abused the hell out of the pension systems. I know that for 100% fact, and have some direct knowledge. (That's all I can say about it.) They did things like pay themselves "13th month" checks. Some departments held certain positions "open", and some officers got bogus promotions in their last year or two, to jack up their post-retirement payments. The good ole boys in charge of the systems had "meetings" that were really crazy blowout parties, including some of the best entertainment money could rent. (Which they had to basically launder money to pay for.) Then a number of them complained that they are underfunded, and need public money to bail them out.


Same thing happens with TRS. Favored coaches and others are promoted to director of special programs, HR assistant superintendent, etc to boost their retirement. Check out the org chart of Clear Creek ISD, Fort Bend ISD, Pearland ISD, Alvin ISD, etc. Itâ€™s rampant all over. Lots of people with no business being an administrator are increasing their pensions by > 50% by working the final few years in an inflated role.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BigPumaAg

ReedA1691 said:


> Is that still the case since their pension was "rolled" into the overall City pension fund?


How the payout is calculated? I think so. Now that the roll into the city pension fund HFD pension is not 80% funded though (which for those that don't realize, that is pretty good funding %).....Which is why they pushed for litigation to get pay raises (didn't work) and then pushed for the albatross that is prop b. All the while turning down pay raises again.


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## boom!

Anyone heard any updates on this? Seems like there should be information released by now on whoâ€™s bullets hit where.


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## Whitebassfisher

boom! said:


> Anyone heard any updates on this? Seems like there should be information released by now on whoâ€™s bullets hit where.


Government entities and corporations never admit mistakes. They change rules for the future, but won't admit past mistakes.

This was a huge clusterfark from the word go.


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## catndahats

Was just thinking about this case....nothing new on Google.
Questions unaswered, it's with the D.A., crickets chirping....city hopeful it just goes away quietly---this is how a cover-up works.


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## vdrivenman

*2day*

who CARES ??????????


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## Lat22

boom! said:


> Anyone heard any updates on this? Seems like there should be information released by now on whoâ€™s bullets hit where.


C'mon Boom! We're supposed to forget about it.


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## Duckchasr

Last I heard the family had hired a private firm to do a thorough investigation. The firm stated that the police investigation was shoddy and that there were still bullets lodged in various locations in the house. One thing I hope that these deaths will put an end to no knock warrants.


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## saltgrassdrifter

I was wondering the same thing about the Waco Twin Peaks shooting.The charges were drop but never heard who was responsible for the shooting.


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## Whitebassfisher

vdrivenman said:


> who CARES ??????????


I do.
I don't mean to bash all police, but this particular case was an embarrassing mess. The 2 dead victims were basically slaughtered for no reason at all. And apparently several of Houston's finest shot each other.

I want our police to do better than that.


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## ReedA1691

It has not been crickets since the previous last post on this thread (3-15), at least not out in the real world. The policy on no-knock warrants has been changed to include additional layers of approval from senior police officials. I am not sure, but the courts (judges) are supposedly also tasked with taking a harder look at such warrants and raising the bar on the level of evidence required to grant them. I am pretty sure HPD will ever support completely banning no-knocks. That doesn't mean anything necessarily until we see how it plays out, but that is a policy change that has taken place.

Multiple news stories have been broadcast in the last month. Mostly about the family and their quest for the truth. Some mention of fund raising efforts to help the families fund their investigations. 

The two or three officers who falsified evidence and who got the "informant" to say he saw black tar heroin are finished. I would suppose it will be decades before the memory of this fades within HPD to a point where someone else will pull some chit like that raid. 

IMO, officers who hit other officers are not necessarily at criminal fault, but if no bullets were fired by the two deceased, or if none of the bullets they fired hit an officer, or if any bullets from any officers' guns hit other officers, this information should definitely be released to the public saying so.


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## impulse

saltgrassdrifter said:


> I was wondering the same thing about the Waco Twin Peaks shooting.The charges were drop but never heard who was responsible for the shooting.


The sad thing is that the charges were dropped after people's lives had been ruined, entire careers shot in the butt, and finances devastated to make bail, hire lawyers, and get their belongings back from impound. That's the cost of just being charged, let alone found guilty.

Folks who think that it's all okay just because "justice prevailed in the end" haven't had to deal with the criminal justice industry. It is just that- an industry.

Thank goodness for dash cams, body cams and ubiquitous smartphone cameras, because God only knows how many people have been exonerated even before they lose everything they own on false charges.

I respect the badge, but several positions in my lifetime have put me into social situations with cops, and even they have told me horror stories of bad apples within their own organizations.


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## Whitebassfisher

ReedA1691 said:


> .....
> 
> IMO, officers who hit other officers are not necessarily at criminal fault, but if no bullets were fired by the two deceased, or if none of the bullets they fired hit an officer, or if any bullets from any officers' guns hit other officers, this information should definitely be released to the public saying so.


I agree with the above.

I won't go so far as to say there should never ever be another no-knock raid, but in general they are not a good idea. They are not the smartest way to attack the problem.

SWAT type tactics make sense in some cases, such as an active shooter or hostages taken.


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## impulse

ReedA1691 said:


> ....
> 
> The two or three officers who falsified evidence and who got the "informant" to say he saw black tar heroin are finished. I would suppose it will be decades before the memory of this fades within HPD to a point where someone else will pull some chit like that raid.
> 
> IMO, officers who hit other officers are not necessarily at criminal fault, but if no bullets were fired by the two deceased, or if none of the bullets they fired hit an officer, or if any bullets from any officers' guns hit other officers, this information should definitely be released to the public saying so.


Several key questions seem to remain after months and months, including whether the only drugs found at the scene were in the cop car, and for what purpose (planting evidence?), and whether the residents even had guns, much less whether they fired on officers. Then, of course, which guns actually caused the injuries- the residents' guns or which of the cops' guns?

Seems like they're trying to test the attention span of the citizens of Houston, or at the least hoping something bigger and badder happens to divert attention from this tragic and embarrassing incident.

I hope there are provisions to claw back any retirement benefits from any public servants that are found to have committed heinous crimes under their color of authority. But somehow, I doubt it...


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## offshorefanatic

This isnâ€™t justice. The officers who falsified the information and went along with it need to spend life in prison for murder. Period end of story. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Blk Jck 224

So when a police officer makes a conscious decision to commit murder, they can just retire and all is good in the world again?...I think that they should be in the penitentiary, & their pensions should be donated to Shriners or St. Jude


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## PoppyX3

I don't remember seeing this in previous threads and I'm not trying to play Jr. detective, but I'll throw this out there for a different prospective. What if Tuttle and an informant got crossways, Tuttle ****** him off and he wanted to get him back, retaliate. Find a gung-ho cop and sic him on him. Let the cop take care of business. Like I say, not taking sides or forming an opinion, just coming from another direction.


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## doyou

Ive always felt that people of power need to be held at a higher stander and higher punishments than a normal citizen.

Cops shouldnt be able to get "paid leave" when investigating a shooting or murder when a normal citizen is jailed until court. The judicial system shouldn't protect them because they are "cops". 

If they know that the punishment is twice that of a normal citizen maybe the bad ones will think twice before committing some of the actions that they do.

Same with me goes with big banks and their "fines" etc etc


/end rant


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## Drundel

PoppyX3 said:


> I don't remember seeing this in previous threads and I'm not trying to play Jr. detective, but I'll throw this out there for a different prospective. What if Tuttle and an informant got crossways, Tuttle ****** him off and he wanted to get him back, retaliate. Find a gung-ho cop and sic him on him. Let the cop take care of business. Like I say, not taking sides or forming an opinion, just coming from another direction.


Sounds like a good case for swatting charges.


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## Lat22

ReedA1691 said:


> The two or three officers who falsified evidence and who got the "informant" to say he saw black tar heroin are finished. I would suppose it will be decades before the memory of this fades within HPD to a point where someone else will pull some chit like that raid.


These are the guys that need to burn. I donâ€™t care that theyâ€™re â€œfinishedâ€ and that theyâ€™ve retired. Their criminal actions directly led to the deaths of two people. They need to be charged and tried.


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## rancher

The ones that need to burn starts at the top and goes down. Where are the supervisors of these rogue officers, as I have said it is just the police culture turning a blind eye. This resulted in the execution of two citizens who where in their home, minding their own business. Are they the only drug users in Houston or Harris County. I think not. Not the big time dealers alleged by the warrant. AGAIN WERE ARE THE CAPTAIN of NARCOTICS, HIS LIEUTENANTS AND SERGEANTS. They are responsible in this. Let me add have you seen what happen in BRAZOS COUNTY where the TABC officer LIED ON THE STAND. The DA decided not to prosecute said it was a mistake. Just another example of the police corrupt culture. Here is link.

https://www.kbtx.com/content/news/A...cing-aggravated-perjury-charge-511161421.html


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## rancher

Here is another article of TABCs response to their agent committing perjury in court. Remember it is the DA who guides the grand jury. Another example of the corrupt police and their culture. 


wtaw.com/2019/06/12/update-tabc-executive-director-supports-brazos-county-grand-jury-decision-not-to-indict-agent-charge-aggravated-perjury/


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## rancher

http://wtaw.com/2019/06/12/update-t...ot-to-indict-agent-charge-aggravated-perjury/


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## Lovin'Laura

rancher said:


> The ones that need to burn starts at the top and goes down. Where are the supervisors of these rogue officers, as I have said it is just the police culture turning a blind eye. This resulted in the execution of two citizens who where in their home, minding their own business. Are they the only drug users in Houston or Harris County. I think not. Not the big time dealers alleged by the warrant. AGAIN WERE ARE THE CAPTAIN of NARCOTICS, HIS LIEUTENANTS AND SERGEANTS. They are responsible in this. Let me add have you seen what happen in BRAZOS COUNTY where the TABC officer LIED ON THE STAND. The DA decided not to prosecute said it was a mistake. Just another example of the police corrupt culture. Here is link.
> 
> https://www.kbtx.com/content/news/A...cing-aggravated-perjury-charge-511161421.html


I agree with this 100%. I mean, the bad apples are protected by more bad apples as this is systematic and we need people that will end the 'code of silence' or whatever. There were even a couple of cops on this thread that were defending the cops actions with 'guarantees' and other statements they made that ended up being false. They are also part of the problem telling us that we don't know what we are talking about and we shouldn't have an opinion. Well, you are dead wrong. All bad cops should be rooted out and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.


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## Blk Jck 224

HPD got a letter today from the DA today citing that if records requested more that six weeks ago pertaining to names of informants, locations of buys, payouts to those informants, who approved the payments, & who signed off on any operations utilized by HPD Narcotics Squad 15 from 1/1/2014 to present by the close of business day 6/24/2019, that HPD will be served with Grand Jury suponeas on 6/25/2016...There will be much more to this story...This was sent from Natasha Sinclair / Assistant District Attorney / Division Chief / Civil Rights to Assistant HPD Chief Lopez


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## Whitebassfisher

Blk Jck 224 said:


> HPD got a letter today from the DA today citing that if records requested more that six weeks ago pertaining to names of informants, locations of buys, payouts to those informants, who approved the payments, & who signed off on any operations utilized by HPD Narcotics Squad 15 from 1/1/2014 to present by the close of business day 6/24/2019, that HPD will be served with Grand Jury suponeas on 6/25/2016...There will be much more to this story...This was sent from Natasha Sinclair / Assistant District Attorney / Division Chief / Civil Rights to Assistant HPD Chief Lopez


Very interesting! So while HPD is trying to sweep this under the rug, the DA's office isn't ready to do that?


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## rancher

According to Chronicle. The DAs office is aware that Houston Police Dept. and their corrupt culture is not forthcoming with a total investigation. Here is article

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...-police-for-names-of-14025877.php?cmpid=hpctp


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## Lovin'Laura

rancher said:


> According to Chronicle. The DAs office is aware that Houston Police Dept. and their corrupt culture is not forthcoming with a total investigation. Here is article
> 
> https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...-police-for-names-of-14025877.php?cmpid=hpctp


Bad cops protecting other bad cops.


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## StinkBait

As it should be....

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...m_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lovin'Laura

HoustonKid said:


> Thankfully it appears all of the officers are going to be ok. Four where shot one blew his knee/quad taking cover. One thing is for sure, the crooks picked a fight and the good men of HPD finished it. They took fire and instead of running away they engaged the threat and neutralized them.
> 
> Two for the good guys.


Now you should take back this idiotic comment along with the other comments you made regarding this horrible incident.


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## Lovin'Laura

photofishin said:


> Sorry but when you're the type to automatically assume the police are always at fault...YOU are what's wrong with America. Unlike you, I have a brain and use it. I don't, however spend all my time second guessing men and women in law enforcement and playing jr detective online, even after numerous law enforcement folks here show you how ignorant some of the comments here are. By the way, not that you'll read it because it'd dent your tinfoil hat
> 
> Even you have to admit the 'internet Jr. Detectives' were right. Thank God we live in the USA and don't live in a 'Police State' as you would have it.


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## boom!

Dang guys, this is one time that I wished that we weren't right. No need to spike the ball. Let the bad cops burn in Hell and letâ€™s support the good ones.


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## rancher

They should now be charging with murder the supervisors who approved the warrant and were in authority to make decisions. He was not the only one who fired a shot in the raid that resulted in death of a disabled vet. and his wife. This bunch of thugs who masquerade as police officers should spend the rest of their lives in prison. Hopefully they become someone's wife inside those bars.


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## Blk Jck 224

Nefarious black renegade cops murdering innocent white citizens...Meet me at Southmore & Almeda @ 5:30 and I will lead the march out onto 288 and we will shut down traffic and make our voices heard!


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## rancher

Hopefully justice will be served here is link

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...ed-with-murder-in-botched-harding-street-raid


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## rancher

The chickens now are coming home to roost this bunch of thugs may soon share a whole wing at TDC. 12 officers and 2 sergeants obtain legal representation. Story attached.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...representation-in-wake-of-harding-street-raid


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## rancher

Good Texas Monthly Article


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## cubera

Don't quite know how to take that, given it's a liberal rag.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

I hope and think we have many good cops out there. I don't understand their reasoning in a cover up though, and question whether a cop that is good could go along with cover ups. It seems that the average cop must be more concerned with acceptance among his peers in the department than following and enforcing the law. Is there a cop out there willing to try to explain this to me?


----------



## Swampus

boom! said:


> Dang guys, this is one time that I wished that we weren't right. No need to spike the ball. Let the bad cops burn in Hell and letâ€™s support the good ones.[/QU
> 
> yes:cheers:


----------



## impulse

First thing they need to do is put a freeze on their retirement accounts until the case is decided. 

A little turnabout on the recent Texas tendency for civil forfeiture... See how they like it from the other side.


----------



## will-billy

Whitebassfisher said:


> I hope and think we have many good cops out there. I don't understand their reasoning in a cover up though, and question whether a cop that is good could go along with cover ups. It seems that the average cop must be more concerned with acceptance among his peers in the department than following and enforcing the law. Is there a cop out there willing to try to explain this to me?


the fact that 12 more cops and 2 more supervisors hired lawyers is a bit troubling


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## impulse

will-billy said:


> the fact that 12 more cops and 2 more supervisors hired lawyers is a bit troubling


I doubt they've hired lawyers as much as they've had lawyers hired for them, paid for by taxpayers. I'd be more concerned if they weren't lawyering up. At the end of the day, this is going to cost the Houston and/or Texas taxpayers $$$ millions. Whatever they say now will not only be used for the criminal trials, but also in the civil trials. And they're going to be whoppers. So lawyers are appropriate.

On one hand, I hope the guilty never see the light of day again, and lose their jobs, and get their pensions clawed back. But on the other hand, I'm afraid the taxpayers are going to be left holding a huge liability, costing $$$ millions that are really needed for other programs.


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## rancher

Lots of questions remained unanswered. How many times were the disabled vet. and his wife shot. Who shot them and who fired the fatal shot. What role did Capt. Paul Follis and Lt. Marsha Todd play in the raid? Who ordered the code red of these two innocent citizens?


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## jeffbx62

rancher said:


> Lots of questions remained unanswered. How many times were the disabled vet. and his wife shot. Who shot them and who fired the fatal shot. What role did Capt. Paul Follis and Lt. Marsha Todd play in the raid? Who ordered the code red of these two innocent citizens?


Lt. Marsha Todd has a history of falsifying and lying on reports including Termination Hearings of Cops that would not cover up things for "the team"

What's up with all the black bald Narcs HPD has? Looks like Goines is missing his Steroid Cycle as well.


----------



## vdrivenman

*2day*

doubt the tax payers are footing the attorneys bills.most le belong to an organization either cleat/tmpa. they pay dues.part of the dues go for life insurance ,lobbyist , and legal representation in criminal & civil matters on and off duty.

lawyering up doesnt imply guilt just using common sense. sad day when its come down to what it is today. with as much hatred and judgement HPD will never be able to fill their vacancies. glad I live out in the woods !

LE are guaranteed due process just like the rest of the world. so if they wanna retire and leave its their right ! take that pension and move away.


----------



## batmaninja

Going off of the cop shows my wife watches, innocent people dont usually hire attorneys here. Why would the ones that havent even been charged with a crime need legal representation? If they are on the cities payroll as a public servant, dont they still have an oath to honor? 

I dont know why the union guy Gamaldi still has a job either.


----------



## Blk Jck 224

https://texasmonitor.org/houston-has-more-public-corruption-than-new-orleans-boston-sacramento/

https://hpdsucks.blogspot.com/

HPD got me for 59 in a 45 on Cullen last week...Had an officer on foot hiding with a cordless radar gun radioing to another in a ghost car parked behind some hedges in a parking lot down the street...Perhaps they could channel their creative tactics towards real crime solutions...Oh wait...There isn't any $ in it...The black officer that wrote me was looking at me all suspect like as most white folks avoid that part of town...LOL


----------



## impulse

vdrivenman said:


> doubt the tax payers are footing the attorneys bills.most le belong to an organization either cleat/tmpa. they pay dues.part of the dues go for life insurance ,lobbyist , and legal representation in criminal & civil matters on and off duty.
> 
> lawyering up doesnt imply guilt just using common sense. sad day when its come down to what it is today. with as much hatred and judgement HPD will never be able to fill their vacancies. glad I live out in the woods !
> 
> LE are guaranteed due process just like the rest of the world. so if they wanna retire and leave its their right ! take that pension and move away.


If there was any justice in the world, they'd get the same due process they meted out to the residents they killed.

Unfortunately, there are 2 standards of justice in Texas, one for the guys with power and money and connections, and a lower standard of justice for the rest of us.

These guys will get much better legal representation than the folks they shot. Hopefully, it will give a lot of LEO's a sense of how badly lives can be screwed up just by being accused of something. You don't even need to be found guilty to be bankrupted by legal fees, bail bonds and civil asset forfeiture. Not to mention the risk of being killed just sitting at home...


----------



## rancher

Headlines from today. Is this Chicago starting to develop. Chief Wiggums aka Acevedo the bag man for the city has given the order, More Money More Money there is never enough. Meanwhile innocent citizens die.

https://www.chron.com/local/article/Two-men-shot-while-playing-basketball-at-NW-14376940.php

https://www.chron.com/local/article/Man-shot-to-death-outside-a-SW-Houston-14377023.php


----------



## rancher

In Chief Wiggums news conference on Friday, he made it sound that HPD was the victim in the no knock warrant raid. He also got extremely angry when asked if he was going to resign. Attached is link to KHOU interview of Prof. Gerald Treece and his take on the arrest of the two HPD thugs. He thinks this is just the first chapter in the march to justice.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/c...rder/285-4db135e4-f737-48c7-a9c9-7dc6affe1e2c


----------



## Profish00

Chief Wiggums was in Galveston last night, I sat behind him. He must be local as he knew the staff.


----------



## boom!

Profish00 said:


> Chief Wiggums was in Galveston last night, I sat behind him. He must be local as he knew the staff.


So did ya bond out or do we need to start a go fund me? :biggrin:


----------



## Won Hunglo

batmaninja said:


> Going off of the cop shows my wife watches, innocent people dont usually hire attorneys here. Why would the ones that havent even been charged with a crime need legal representation?


Anyone with half a brain gets a lawyer if there is an investigation. If not, you might not have committed a crime but you won't be innocent long.

Look at the idiot in Florida that just got found guilty of shooting his assaulter. All based on his statements made to police before he got a lawyer to tell him to close his mouth.


----------



## Profish00

boom! said:


> So did ya bond out or do we need to start a go fund me? :biggrin:


 Both, but the sushi was great:help:


----------



## Drundel

Won Hunglo said:


> Anyone with half a brain gets a lawyer if there is an investigation. If not, you might not have committed a crime but you won't be innocent long.
> 
> Look at the idiot in Florida that just got found guilty of shooting his assaulter. All based on his statements made to police before he got a lawyer to tell him to close his mouth.


Well and he wait too long to shoot. Once the guy backed away after he pulled his gun, it was over, but nope, he shot the guy as he was half turned away.

Both him and the perp are idiots as well as the baby momma for parking in a handicap spot.


----------



## batmaninja

_Police quickly realized they couldn't find the informant who Goines said bought the drugs. When questioned about it, Goines eventually admitted there wasnâ€™t one, according to prosecutors. Instead, the veteran officer allegedly said he made the buy himself before conceding that he couldnâ€™t confirm Tuttle was the same man heâ€™d bought the drugs from._

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...dJSQOnFyiZ0hT_jM2sFOhf4qWgzeFA#photo-18161503

Just keeps getting weirder ....


----------



## rancher

Looks like Chief Wiggums aka Acevado better have a whole law firm on retainer. According to the D.A. Office, 10 more prosecutors will be hired to investigate the Harding Street EXECUTION of Two INNOCENT CITIZENS. I still find it hard to believe that Capt. Paul Follis and LT. Marsha Todd could turn a blind eye to a whole squad of rogue police officers. Attached is link from Harris County DA Office. I hope that justice is served to this squad of hitmen who masquerade as police officers.

https://www.harriscountyda.com/fund...ecutors-harding-st-investigation-move-rapidly


----------



## HoustonKid

ROCKPORTJACK said:


> Now you should take back this idiotic comment along with the other comments you made regarding this horrible incident.


Agreed. Statement long ago rescinded. It appears the officers will receive the justice they deserve.


----------



## bmc4041

batmaninja said:


> I dont know why the union guy Gamaldi still has a job either.


And earlier this month he was elected the president of their national fraternal order of police.


----------



## Imtheman

HoustonKid said:


> Agreed. Statement long ago rescinded. It appears the officers will receive the justice they deserve.


No they wonâ€™t.

Unless they get the death penalty, and we both know they wonâ€™t. Even then it wouldnâ€™t be enough.


----------



## Blk Jck 224

Imtheman said:


> No they wonâ€™t.
> 
> Unless they get the death penalty, and we both know they wonâ€™t. Even then it wouldnâ€™t be enough.


If they go the big house and are exposed to the general population, they will almost certainly be executed...I'm predicting that they might jump bail and leave the Country


----------



## Imtheman

Blk Jck 224 said:


> If they go the big house and are exposed to the general population, they will almost certainly be executed...I'm predicting that they might jump bail and leave the Country


Iâ€™m not sure of 2 things.

1.I'm not sure they wonâ€™t be segregated.
2. I think this belief doesnâ€™t really happens. I think they will not be recognized, and will serve their term just like every other convict. I think prison karma justice is fantasy.


----------



## batmaninja

_Gamaldi and the union stood defiantly that night in its backing of Sgt. Gerald Goines, as well as the other Houston police officers injured in the raid.

For months thereafter, the union picked up Goines' legal tab. However, Goines is no longer being provided that luxury.

On Monday, KPRC 2 Investigates learned the union has stopped paying Goines' legal fees. A union official confirming it in a text. Goines' attorney, Nicole DeBorde, said she will remain with her client. _

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...YLcWZo4KkdP1tnlpB3vZLlvAm8gNmyGusk9S8dBWUd-j8

Kind of curious what the protocol would be for the Union to stop paying legal fees?


----------



## rynochop2.0

Imtheman said:


> Iâ€™m not sure of 2 things.
> 
> 1.I'm not sure they wonâ€™t be segregated.
> 2. I think this belief doesnâ€™t really happens. I think they will not be recognized, and will serve their term just like every other convict. I think prison karma justice is fantasy.


I have a buddy that used to be CO supervisor, and that stuff is mostly a myth other than a fight that just may break out for whatever reason. Same goes for prison rape..just something folks want to believe goes on


----------



## ReedA1691

Immediately following this incident, very few people out and about town could have, or would have, imagined the raid was unlawful, yet quite a few on this board did. But the Chief's support in the immediate aftermath was replaced with condemnation once the truth began to come out. The indictments were a result of an HPD investigation into the raid and all of the evidence the DA is using came from that HPD investigation. So calling the Chirf names and accusing him of a cover up is way off base 

But there are quite a few people on here who, at first thought these were just two drug dealing junkies who fired on police officers first (and that may turn out to be true or false), but now talk about them as hero/victims. I think there had to be some fire in there for there to be enough smoke to get the NARC's attention. Some drugs, even some neighbors complaining about random visitors at all hours of the night. That's what was happening when I had a crack house next to me in the early 90s. I called the police on them. Point being, the NARCs didn't randomly select a couple of people and assassinate them. 

Not saying a no-knock raid and being shot to death is just payment for being a junkie, but I would also say that this "murder" charge is murder by name only. There was no intent to shoot anybody. A dog lunged, shots went off and all hell broke loose. 

Once this goes to trial, we will probably find out lots of things about everybody that will once again, change our opinions about some or all aspects of this. Like how many rounds each officer fired. How many rounds either or both of the occupants fired. How much and what kind of drugs were in the blood of each and every person involved, including the officers. And most of all, how many people knew the drugs did not come from that house and where did they come from.


----------



## SeaOx 230C

ReedA1691 said:


> Immediately following this incident, very few people out and about town could have, or would have, imagined the raid was unlawful, yet quite a few on this board did. But the Chief's support in the immediate aftermath was replaced with condemnation once the truth began to come out. The indictments were a result of an HPD investigation into the raid and all of the evidence the DA is using came from that HPD investigation. So calling the Chirf names and accusing him of a cover up is way off base
> 
> But there are quite a few people on here who, at first thought these were just two drug dealing junkies who fired on police officers first (and that may turn out to be true or false), but now talk about them as hero/victims. I think there had to be some fire in there for there to be enough smoke to get the NARC's attention. Some drugs, even some neighbors complaining about random visitors at all hours of the night. That's what was happening when I had a crack house next to me in the early 90s. I called the police on them. Point being, the NARCs didn't randomly select a couple of people and assassinate them.
> 
> Not saying a no-knock raid and being shot to death is just payment for being a junkie, but I would also say that this "murder" charge is murder by name only. There was no intent to shoot anybody. A dog lunged, shots went off and all hell broke loose.
> 
> Once this goes to trial, we will probably find out lots of things about everybody that will once again, change our opinions about some or all aspects of this. Like how many rounds each officer fired. How many rounds either or both of the occupants fired. How much and what kind of drugs were in the blood of each and every person involved, including the officers. And most of all, how many people knew the drugs did not come from that house and where did they come from.


I strongly disagree with you.

It is not murder in name only.

These are bad people corrupt Cops. There is no justification for what happened period. Even if Tuttle and Nichols were raging junkies so what. There was not history of any police issues in that home they had lived there in peace for decades.

Drug users don't deserve death for simply using drugs in their own home.

I have read a Chronicle article that said it started with a tip from an anonymous person. The person said her daughter was using in that house. A patrol officer went by and looked didn't see anything then turned the tip over to her girlfriend Marsha Todd. Todd then gave the info to Goines and here we are.

No telling how accurate that is but it was a published report.

As for them being drug dealers......no I never did and still don't believe that. At worst they smoked pot and used a little coke. These people were obviously not drug dealers. Interviews with neighbors support that.

It has also been reported that Goines said an informant bought the heroin, then changed to be bought it himself......then changed to he can't remember if he bought from Tuttle or not.


----------



## Whitebassfisher

ReedA1691 said:


> Immediately following this incident, very few people out and about town could have, or would have, imagined the raid was unlawful, yet quite a few on this board did. But the Chief's support in the immediate aftermath was replaced with condemnation once the truth began to come out. The indictments were a result of an HPD investigation into the raid and all of the evidence the DA is using came from that HPD investigation. So calling the Chirf names and accusing him of a cover up is way off base
> 
> But there are quite a few people on here who, at first thought these were just two drug dealing junkies who fired on police officers first (and that may turn out to be true or false), but now talk about them as hero/victims. I think there had to be some fire in there for there to be enough smoke to get the NARC's attention. Some drugs, even some neighbors complaining about random visitors at all hours of the night. That's what was happening when I had a crack house next to me in the early 90s. I called the police on them. Point being, the NARCs didn't randomly select a couple of people and assassinate them.
> 
> Not saying a no-knock raid and being shot to death is just payment for being a junkie, but I would also say that this "murder" charge is murder by name only. There was no intent to shoot anybody. A dog lunged, shots went off and all hell broke loose.
> 
> Once this goes to trial, we will probably find out lots of things about everybody that will once again, change our opinions about some or all aspects of this. Like how many rounds each officer fired. How many rounds either or both of the occupants fired. How much and what kind of drugs were in the blood of each and every person involved, including the officers. And most of all, how many people knew the drugs did not come from that house and where did they come from.


When I first heard about the raid, I assumed it was totally legitimate. However, their neighbors who had lived by them for years said this was a lie. There were years of history on the couple, all of which was good. After several days the chief told us cops were guilty. Supposedly credible news sources have said Goines admitted to lying. Even the police union has stopped paying Goines legal bills. Take off your blinders, this was a bad raid that resulted in the deaths of 2 decent people. Also, some of the injured cops may not have known how dirty this whole thing was, meaning they were victims too. This case is a perfect example of why we are supposed to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure.


----------



## ReedA1691

SeaOx 230C said:


> I strongly disagree with you.
> 
> It is not murder in name only.
> 
> These are bad people corrupt Cops. There is no justification for what happened period. Even if Tuttle and Nichols were raging junkies so what. There was not history of any police issues in that home they had lived there in peace for decades.
> 
> Drug users don't deserve death for simply using drugs in their own home.
> 
> I have read a Chronicle article that said it started with a tip from an anonymous person. The person said her daughter was using in that house. A patrol officer went by and looked didn't see anything then turned the tip over to her girlfriend Marsha Todd. Todd then gave the info to Goines and here we are.
> 
> No telling how accurate that is but it was a published report.
> 
> As for them being drug dealers......no I never did and still don't believe that. At worst they smoked pot and used a little coke. These people were obviously not drug dealers. Interviews with neighbors support that.
> 
> It has also been reported that Goines said an informant bought the heroin, then changed to be bought it himself......then changed to he can't remember if he bought from Tuttle or not.


Not sure you got the point, but felony murder in this case is the charge only because because a death occurred during a raid in which a felony (lies and planting evidence) was committed. It is not murder other than for that and if you think they went there with the intent of murdering these two, along with and including the knowledge of 5 or 6 other officers, that is your opinion and I will strongly disagree.

I never said I knew they were drug dealers (thos I would suspect they have sold drugs) and if you want to crucify me for seeing her picture and seeing what I would bet money was a junky, so be it. I grew up with a few junkies - pills/alcohol, cocaine and heroin - and I know the look.


----------



## ReedA1691

Whitebassfisher said:


> When I first heard about the raid, I assumed it was totally legitimate. However, their neighbors who had lived by them for years said this was a lie. There were years of history on the couple, all of which was good. After several days the chief told us cops were guilty. Supposedly credible news sources have said Goines admitted to lying. Even the police union has stopped paying Goines legal bills. Take off your blinders, this was a bad raid that resulted in the deaths of 2 decent people. Also, some of the injured cops may not have known how dirty this whole thing was, meaning they were victims too. This case is a perfect example of why we are supposed to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure.


I don't have blinders on, I never said it was a good raid, but we still have not heard all of the evidence. My point is a lot of us have flip-flopped to some degree on this (you admit as much) at least once and I don't think the whole story is out. Yeah, bad cops, 14,000 cases between them could be suspect,. Huge loss to the force, the community, the two that were killed (obviously) and the tax payers. I never said they weren't dirty cops, but I would bet that there was something other than a bad informant to instigate an investigation. Neighbors defending them doesn't hold a lot of weight for me. I grew a short distance from there, and that part of town has had plenty of dealers in plain sight for decades. I know that part of town.


----------



## EddieL

Need to change the law. If a civilian murders a cop, that is a capital crime. It should cut both ways.

This cop showed up to jail for processing in a suit and left in short order. How many other folks who are charged with murder get to do the same?


----------



## batmaninja

ReedA1691 said:


> I think there had to be some fire in there for there to be enough smoke to get the NARC's attention. Some drugs, even some neighbors complaining about random visitors at all hours of the night.


They couldn't produce the drugs (heroin), the neighbors that complained, or the magic .357?

You know who did have some heroin. Gerald. In his police car.

I dont think the cops went there to murder them, but I do think they were up to something illegal. Why did nobody notice the big aggressive pitbull when they did these previous drug buys?

_In a search warrant for Bryantâ€™s phone data, an investigator with HPDâ€™s Special Investigations Unit wrote that Bryant told investigators that he had retrieved two bags of heroin from the center console of Goinesâ€™ police car at the instruction of another officer._


----------



## SeaOx 230C

ReedA1691 said:


> Not sure you got the point, but felony murder in this case is the charge only because because a death occurred during a raid in which a felony (lies and planting evidence) was committed. It is not murder other than for that and if you think they went there with the intent of murdering these two, along with and including the knowledge of 5 or 6 other officers, that is your opinion and I will strongly disagree.
> 
> I never said I knew they were drug dealers (thos I would suspect they have sold drugs) and if you want to crucify me for seeing her picture and seeing what I would bet money was a junky, so be it. I grew up with a few junkies - pills/alcohol, cocaine and heroin - and I know the look.[/QU
> I get your point you were pretty clear in you first post.
> 
> You ain't the only fella what's seen or been around an addict. But for the Grace of God there go us all.
> 
> Like I said an addict being an addict in their own home is not punishable by death. They did not deserve this to imply that is not right.
> 
> I'm my opinion LEO should be held to a higher standard than the average Joe. To me that's what you agrees to when you sign up. If you can't then don't sign up.
> 
> Did they intend to commit murder I don't know. However it seems to look they did commit murder. I believe they should be charged to fullest extent plus two.
> 
> If they are justified then it will,come out at trail right?


----------



## jeffbx62

EddieL said:


> Need to change the law. If a civilian murders a cop, that is a capital crime. It should cut both ways.
> 
> This cop showed up to jail for processing in a suit and left in short order. How many other folks who are charged with murder get to do the same?


Zero..


----------



## ralph7

ReedA1691 said:


> I don't have blinders on, I never said it was a good raid, but we still have not heard all of the evidence. My point is a lot of us have flip-flopped to some degree on this (you admit as much) at least once and I don't think the whole story is out. Yeah, bad cops, 14,000 cases between them could be suspect,. Huge loss to the force, the community, the two that were killed (obviously) and the tax payers. I never said they weren't dirty cops, *but I would bet that there was something other than a bad informant to instigate an investigation*. Neighbors defending them doesn't hold a lot of weight for me. I grew a short distance from there, and that part of town has had plenty of dealers in plain sight for decades. I know that part of town.


Like a vendetta?


----------



## Won Hunglo

ReedA1691 said:


> I don't have blinders on, I never said it was a good raid, but we still have not heard all of the evidence. My point is a lot of us have flip-flopped to some degree on this (you admit as much) at least once and I don't think the whole story is out. Yeah, bad cops, 14,000 cases between them could be suspect,. Huge loss to the force, the community, the two that were killed (obviously) and the tax payers. I never said they weren't dirty cops, but *I would bet that there was something other than a bad informant to instigate an investigation.* Neighbors defending them doesn't hold a lot of weight for me. I grew a short distance from there, and that part of town has had plenty of dealers in plain sight for decades. I know that part of town.


Bullies don't look for a reason to screw with someone's life. They do it because they can and think they can keep getting away with it with no consequences. Power trip for them they enjoy. Then one day things don't go as planned...


----------



## rancher

Dennis Tuttle* DISABLED VET* and his wife Rhogena Nicholas had lived at that location for 20 years according to the Harris County Clerks office and KHOU. Dennis Tuttle had* NO CRIMINAL RECORD* and Rhogena Nicholas had a bad check misdemeanor which she paid $145 restitution. According to KHOU there were no other run in with the law. Where are Capt. Paul Follis and Lt. Marsha Todd in this investigation. After all wasn't it Todd who sicced Goins on that location under the guise of the location being a dope house. In addition why the next day after the murder of two innocent citizens did the investigator* Angel August TITLE THE INVESTIGATION "JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE--UNFOUNDED MURDER'* Where are the other members of Nar. Squad 15 who shot up the home. I smell typical HPD coverup. Hopefully justice will be served and Goins and Bryant will not be the sacrificial lambs in this incident.


----------



## doyou

SeaOx 230C said:


> ReedA1691 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm my opinion LEO should be held to a higher standard than the average Joe. To me that's what you agrees to when you sign up. If you can't then don't sign up.
> 
> Did they intend to commit murder I don't know. However it seems to look they did commit murder. I believe they should be charged to fullest extent plus two.
> 
> 
> 
> this X1000
> 
> I know all cops aren't bad, but even the bad ones can look at history and even from the outside we know a simple fact. If a cop commits the same crime as a citizen not only does their police force back them right or wrong, they don't have to sit in jail while waiting trial (paid leave) and often get no sentence or lighter ones.
> 
> So if i am a bad cop, why not do bad **** because whats the worst that happens if i get caught in most scenarios, reassignment, paid leave for a bit ...
Click to expand...


----------



## muney pit

Guys, it almost happened again. The cops threated to shoot there dog and all. If the dad would have pulled a gun seeing a group of people rushing in his yard youd see a story of a guy killing cops. This **** is out of hand and they didnt even get an apology of how things went down. I support the blue as long as they do it right but i have seen cops straight up lie to try and catch someone else in a lie. If you think this kind of stuff cant happen to you wake up. You need to already have a plan in place on how to defend you family of such a botch raid or a real home invasion.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/houston-police-target-wrong-house-while-looking-for-wanted-felon


----------



## will-billy

muney pit said:


> Guys, it almost happened again. The cops threated to shoot there dog and all. If the dad would have pulled a gun seeing a group of people rushing in his yard youd see a story of a guy killing cops. This **** is out of hand and they didnt even get an apology of how things went down. I support the blue as long as they do it right but i have seen cops straight up lie to try and catch someone else in a lie. If you think this kind of stuff cant happen to you wake up. You need to already have a plan in place on how to defend you family of such a botch raid or a real home invasion.
> 
> https://www.click2houston.com/news/houston-police-target-wrong-house-while-looking-for-wanted-felon


completely different scenario, the other was not an accident


----------



## rancher

The good old HPD way is so alive and well. According to Chronicle, Lt. Marsha Todd, the supervisor for hit squad #15, received a dope house tip from a female officer. The officer was Lt. Todd's lover. Earlier investigation by officer found it was unfounded. Lt. Todd then makes the decision to unleash her lead pit bull Gerald Goins and hit team 15 on the location. Now in the aftermath Lt. Todd is being protected by HPD. According to the chronicle lead pit bull goins was involved in a similar incident in 2013 in which a no knock warrant resulted in a gun fire and George Bernard an unarmed man in the home was shot. Attached are links.

ttps://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Court-documents-reveal-origins-of-botched-HPD-14376439.php?utm_campaign=chron&utm_source

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...88471.php?ipid=houstonhomepage#photo-16900390


----------



## Reloading

KHOU 11 Investigates examined 109 other drug cases Goines filed based on a search warrant between 2012 and present day. _In every one of those cases in which he claimed confidential informants observed guns inside, no weapons were ever recovered_, according to evidence logs Goines filed with the court.

*How does this go unnoticed by superiors? *

Copied from.....

https://www.khou.com/article/news/c...raid/285-c7aac68c-1dd7-4503-9275-478d554870ce


----------



## Blk Jck 224

Reloading said:


> KHOU 11 Investigates examined 109 other drug cases Goines filed based on a search warrant between 2012 and present day. _In every one of those cases in which he claimed confidential informants observed guns inside, no weapons were ever recovered_, according to evidence logs Goines filed with the court.
> 
> *How does this go unnoticed by superiors? *
> 
> Not unnoticed...Just a double standard...
> 
> Here is a clue...


----------



## SeaOx 230C

Reloading said:


> KHOU 11 Investigates examined 109 other drug cases Goines filed based on a search warrant between 2012 and present day. _In every one of those cases in which he claimed confidential informants observed guns inside, no weapons were ever recovered_, according to evidence logs Goines filed with the court.
> 
> *How does this go unnoticed by superiors? *
> 
> Copied from.....
> 
> https://www.khou.com/article/news/c...raid/285-c7aac68c-1dd7-4503-9275-478d554870ce


Of course they knew.


----------



## batmaninja

I wonder if those other 109 cases, were all no knocks?


----------



## impulse

batmaninja said:


> I wonder if those other 109 cases, were all no knocks?


I wonder in how many of the 14,000 Goines/Bryant cases they're investigating did the cops bring the drugs, like they did in this case?

Also, have they actually confirmed there was a .357 fired at the officers by the residents? Was there even a .357 at all? The independent investigation indicated there was no evidence of firing by the residents.

I can envision hundreds of appeals (many of them very justified) once the evidence of false statements and planted evidence come into the public domain.


----------



## rancher

Where are the cases against Capt. Paul Follis, Lt. Marsha Todd and the rest of the hitmen in squad 15.


----------



## ReedA1691

impulse said:


> I wonder in how many of the 14,000 Goines/Bryant cases they're investigating did the cops bring the drugs, like they did in this case? ..... I can envision hundreds of appeals (many of them very justified) once the evidence of false statements and planted evidence come into the public domain.


I should be clear, I am neither condemning nor supporting anyone in this case, but it's pretty clear that you think they planted drugs or are mistaken as to what it means to plant drugs. The drugs in this case, which were purported to have been obtained from the house of the deceased. They were not planted there. It was used, falsely and illegally, as one of several pieces of evidence presented as a means to get the no-knock warrant.

Planting evidence would be to do the raid and bring a kilo of heroin with you and say it was there when you entered the house.

Both are wrong, but they did not plant evidence.


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## Imtheman

impulse said:


> I can envision hundreds of appeals (many of them very justified) once the evidence of false statements and planted evidence come into the public domain.


That's not how the game works.

The people hit hardest are the ones who are broke. Very few can afford to pay a lawyer to handle this work, so they are stuck with a court appointed attorney for their first appeal. And I'm not sure they get the "A-Game" treatment.

Plus, how many of these actually went to trial? Most people are strong armed into a plea agreement.

My understanding of how the game works is they "stack charges". In other words, they charge you with everything from the crime they want you for, to loitering, disorderly conduct, blocking a roadway, impeding traffic, littering, and any thing that they could remotely think of. So for your supposed crime you have 15 or so charges.

They make it so, even if you are innocent, you are forced to plea, because the probability of you winning just isn't in your favor, and when faced with a 1 year Jail (and they drop all other charges, and plea the alleged crime down to something else) or 25 years Prison with fines and time for each individual alleged crime, even a innocent man will be put to the test. And once you plea, I'm not sure you are eligible for appeal.


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## barronj

ReedA1691 said:


> I should be clear, I am neither condemning nor supporting anyone in this case, but it's pretty clear that you think they planted drugs or are mistaken as to what it means to plant drugs. The drugs in this case, which were purported to have been obtained from the house of the deceased. They were not planted there. It was used, falsely and illegally, as one of several pieces of evidence presented as a means to get the no-knock warrant.
> 
> Planting evidence would be to do the raid and bring a kilo of heroin with you and say it was there when you entered the house.
> 
> Both are wrong, but they did not plant evidence.


A kilo is not something you can plant discretely, because if you're going to plant something, you can't have the whole world knowing about it, but Goines did have two bags of heroin in his car that were removed at the behest of Goines by another officer he thought he could trust to remove the drugs and not inform superiors or IA. As soon as he was lucid enough to communicate with his peers from his hospital bed, I bet Goines worked overtime to cover himself.

He might have even had them on his person when the no-knock went down, then he takes a bullet to the throat or jaw or wherever, scrambles back to his car in the melee and dumps the drugs back in his car because it was too chaotic to dump in the house. He knew he had to go to the hospital and his personal effects would be cataloged to make sure whatever he came in with he would leave with and nothing would come up missing.


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## impulse

ReedA1691 said:


> I should be clear, I am neither condemning nor supporting anyone in this case, but it's pretty clear that you think they planted drugs or are mistaken as to what it means to plant drugs. The drugs in this case, which were purported to have been obtained from the house of the deceased. They were not planted there. It was used, falsely and illegally, as one of several pieces of evidence presented as a means to get the no-knock warrant.
> 
> Planting evidence would be to do the raid and bring a kilo of heroin with you and say it was there when you entered the house.
> 
> Both are wrong, but they did not plant evidence.


No, he didn't get a chance to get the evidence out of his car and plant it, but only because he got shot before he had the chance.

Several reports have indicated there was no heroin found, except in the cop car. And there is no valid reason for it being there. If he had obtained it as the basis of the warrant, it would have been properly packaged and in an evidence room somewhere- not bopping around in his car.


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## StinkBait

3 arrested and charged. Scumbags. Where are you guys that blindly defend the cops?

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...t-arrested-after-botched-harding-street-raid/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fishinguy

This whole thing gets worse and worse. Even the 911 call was likely fraudulent.

I wonder why the cops felt the need to go after these people in the first place. I haven't seen anything regarding the motive for this incident.


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## Whitebassfisher

We have beat this case to death, but there are still questions we deserve answers to. It has become very obvious that Goines and Bryant are dirty. But, other cops said things about Tuttle shooting at the cops with a 357, causing all the bullets to fly. No 357 was logged into evidence, and it seems all the shooting was by the cops, not the homeowners. What about that? Yes, some of the cops may have gone in with a clear conscious that it was a necessary raid. But lying afterward to hide the truth is a different story. 
Possibly up to and including the chief were lying.


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## fishinguy

Whitebassfisher said:


> We have beat this case to death, but there are still questions we deserve answers to. It has become very obvious that Goines and Bryant are dirty. But, other cops said things about Tuttle shooting at the cops with a 357, causing all the bullets to fly. No 357 was logged into evidence, and it seems all the shooting was by the cops, not the homeowners. What about that? Yes, some of the cops may have gone in with a clear conscious that it was a necessary raid. But lying afterward to hide the truth is a different story.
> Possibly up to and including the chief were lying.


There was a whole lot of effort put into this dirty raid. I really wonder why, there has to be some reason Goines and his gang felt the need to go after these people.


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## Whitebassfisher

fishinguy said:


> There was a whole lot of effort put into this dirty raid. I really wonder *why*, there has to be some reason Goines and his gang felt the need to go after these people.


You reduced it down to the one true question .... *WHY?*
There still some 'what' questions, but the biggie is 'why?'


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## batmaninja

_A federal grand jury returned a 9-count indictment on Nov. 14 that was unsealed Wednesday_

So now the Feds are involved? That seems like a pretty big deal.


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## Imtheman

Whitebassfisher said:


> You reduced it down to the one true question .... *WHY?*
> There still some 'what' questions, but the biggie is 'why?'


I thought the neighbor was arrested for making false reports?

I think they thought they were doing right in the wrong way. (but I don't care the reasons).

This is why the procedure matters.

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/...ighbor-for-roles-in-harding-street-drug-raid/



> *FBI Arrests Former Officers, Neighbor For Roles In Harding Street Drug Raid*
> 
> Two former Houston police officers now face federal charges stemming from the January drug raid on Harding Street that left two citizens dead and several officers injured, according to federal investigators.
> 
> The FBI on Wednesday arrested former HPD officers Gerald Goines and Steven Bryant, along with Patricia Garcia, a neighbor on Harding Street who called 9-1-1.
> 
> â€œWe made a commitment when this happened to this community to look at the good, the bad and the ugly and to report back, and today is another step in that journey towards justice, in the journey to justice for the deceased individuals,â€ Houston Police Chief Art Acevedo said at a press conference following the arrests. He also emphasized HPDâ€™s continued cooperation with the FBI and the Harris County District Attorneyâ€™s Office in their investigations.
> 
> On January 28, narcotics officers with the Houston Police Department raided the home of Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas. After a shootout in which the details are still disputed, the couple and their dog were dead. Five officers were also wounded.
> 
> The Harris County District Attorneyâ€™s Office previously charged Goines with two counts of felony murder, and Bryant with tampering with a government document.
> 
> #BREAKING: FBI arrested on federal charges this morning Gerald Goines, Steven Bryant, both former Houston police officers, and 9-1-1 caller Patricia Garcia in connection to the January fatal Harding Street narcotics operation.
> 
> In the federal indictment, Goines is charged with two counts of violating the victimsâ€™ fourth amendment rights, which protect against unreasonable searches. The indictment alleges that Goinesâ€™ search warrant for their house included false statements, which ultimately led to their deaths.
> 
> Goines is also charged with three counts of obstructing an official proceeding by falsely stating on two separate occasions that a confidential informant had purchased narcotics at the Harding Street home, and falsely stating once that he had purchased narcotics there.
> 
> Both Goines and Bryant are charged with obstructing justice by falsifying records. According to the indictment, Goinesâ€™ tactical plan and offense report contained false information, while Bryant falsely claimed that heroin from Goinesâ€™ vehicle had been purchased from the Harding Street house. The indictment also alleges that Bryant falsely claimed that he had previously worked with Goines on the Harding investigation.
> 
> *Garcia is charged with lying to 9-1-1 operators. Prior to the drug raid, on January 8, she allegedly called 9-1-1 several times saying her daughter was inside the house. She also claimed the residents were drug dealers who had machine guns inside the home â€" none of which was true, according to the federal charges. *
> 
> â€œThe police department received a call, you know that, somebody that placed a call to the police department or maybe more than one call, led to a chain of events that but for that call, the information provided, we wouldnâ€™t be standing here today,â€ Acevedo said. He declined to provide more details regarding Garciaâ€™s role and the 9-1-1 call.
> 
> In the months following the raid, continuing revelations contradicting the officersâ€™ version of events spurred a review of thousands of cases handled by the officers. The story of what actually happened on January 28 is not clear either, as independent investigators hired by the family of Rhogena Nicholas claim forensic evidence collected from the scene does not match HPDâ€™s narrative.
> 
> The three are set to appear in court at 2 p.m. If convicted, Goines could face up to life in prison, while Garcia faces 5-years for presenting false information. Each obstruction of justice charge carries up to 20-years in prison.


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## Whitebassfisher

Imtheman said:


> I thought the neighbor was arrested for making false reports?
> 
> I think they thought they were doing right in the wrong way. (but I don't care the reasons).
> 
> This is why the procedure matters.


Apparently the neighbor was arrested for making false reports, I agree.

However, if Goines had not lied to get the warrant, none of this would have happened. We can't place all the blame on the neighbor. WHY did Goines lie?


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## ReedA1691

Whitebassfisher said:


> We can't place all the blame on the neighbor. WHY did Goines lie?


Could this be another case of "SWATTing" gone horribly wrong? A guy in Ohio got 20 years in a federal prison for that.


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## Imtheman

Whitebassfisher said:


> Apparently the neighbor was arrested for making false reports, I agree.
> 
> However, if Goines had not lied to get the warrant, none of this would have happened. We can't place all the blame on the neighbor. WHY did Goines lie?


Again, total assumption, but I would assume it was because he was LAZY. He'd been doing it so long, it was just the easiest way to go about his day. And again an assumption, he thought kicking doors was fun and exciting.

(PLUS he was a corrupt POS, he's been a corrupt POS and the department was complicit, due to their blue line BS, and a culture of covering up for anyone with a badge)


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## Won Hunglo

Whitebassfisher said:


> You reduced it down to the one true question .... *WHY?*
> There still some 'what' questions, but the biggie is 'why?'


Because they were dirty. Dirty cops don't need a legit reason to do what they do. The reward is a cut of the money and drugs found. They are the judge, jury and executioner.


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## batmaninja

_Investigators discovered a stolen gun in Goines' car, along with various illegal drugs. The agent also said Goines' confidential informants denied buying drugs from 7815 Harding, where the botched raid happened. The drugs Goines said he had purchased from the Harding Street home were actually bought at another address, a confidential informant alleged. The informant also told investigators she and Goines had been having sex for years._

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...es-the-Houston-police-officer-at-14855285.php

That is an awful lot of wrongs in one paragraph. I am completely guessing here, but I wouldnt think the CI would be remotely attractive given her career path.


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## impulse

Here's a long read, but a good one...

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...n-misconduct-botched-raid-police-14850548.php


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## boom!

impulse said:


> Here's a long read, but a good one...
> 
> https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...n-misconduct-botched-raid-police-14850548.php


*"Alcala, who served on the stateâ€™s top criminal appeals court from 2011-2018, said officers who misrepresent facts to get search warrants or make arrests are engaging in serious misconduct."*

Serious misconduct? How about state jail felonies on first conviction?


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## rew4

still no jury, no Justice. Victims still dead and forgotten. supect still on vacation.


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## ReedA1691

rew4 said:


> still no jury, no Justice. Victims still dead and forgotten. supect still on vacation.


Goines was charged with two counts of murder in connection with the raid. He was fired from HPD. Not sure how that spells vacation for you.


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## SeaOx 230C

ReedA1691 said:


> Goines was charged with two counts of murder in connection with the raid. He was fired from HPD. Not sure how that spells vacation for you.


Last info I saw while Goines has been charged he was allowed to fully retire with all benefits. He is at home walking the streets with all his money. And so are all the others at HPD that either are directly involved or knew these cops are bad. Name one that has been truly held fully accountable?

No true acknowledgment by the City or HPD. No info given from the City or HPD that any policies or practices have been changed to prevent this from happening again.

Any one really think that no one at HPD knew these cops were bad? Keep in mind we now know they were bad cops for years. Multiple cases revisited and dropped. Of course they knew. Why are the Supervisors not held accountable?

No as was said by some in the beginning of this thread. The City and HPD will just let the memory fade and resume business as usual.


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