# Advice on pens



## Viking48 (Jan 24, 2006)

Ran into a couple new problems this afternoon. When Bobby asked how many pens we could build for the servicemen I didn't have a clue since the few pens I've built have been done from start to finish one at a time. I decided to build 10 pens from the Mesquite and time each step in a mass production process to see how many pens I could reasonably build. All went well until I drilled the blanks and tried to glue the tubes in place. The first one started into the wood and couldn't be forced any further (yep, the glue set up and no, I didn't think to try them first). It turns out that none of the tubes would fit - I've never had that problem and wonder if Mesquite can shrink back after drilling? I put them back in the vise and "reamed" them then everything went fine. BTW - this wood is green. Next problem came when I tried to square up the ends with the mill. For some reason the tubes didn't hold and stuck to the shaft of the mill. They had been drying for a while but I left them to dry for a half hour or so (this is 5 minute CA and it's only a few weeks old) and I still had the same problem. Does CA not work well on green Mesquite? Any advice you might have would be appreciated.


----------



## Flat Fish (Jun 18, 2005)

I switched to gorilla glue the first time I didn't get a tube in all the way. I tend to make pens in small batches of 2-4 at a time. Saves seting up for different kits.


----------



## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

the green wood will shrink as soon as you drill it. As far as the tubes setting before you can get them into the wood. I have had that problem but you have to be fast if it is hot where you are doing the work. I haven't used the gorilla glue yet. I have used the 5 minute epoxy and it worked good.

When you are squaring the ends it shouldn't take but a few turns to do it. anymore and you heat up the ca. Ca glue don't like heat. It will release with too much heat.I use a sander to square my pens most of the time now.


----------



## Slip (Jul 25, 2006)

Also consider that water (green wood) acts as an accelerator for CA glue. Not as fast setting as with a rgular accelerator, but water makes it set quicker than without.


----------



## Viking48 (Jan 24, 2006)

I thought that might be the problem. Any solution to the shrinkage other than letting the wood dry longer? Should I try to find a bit slightly larger than 7mm or just do it in two passes - I guess I could try to drill and glue quickly)? The glue setting up wasn't a result of being too slow - I would have had to use a sledge hammer to drive the tubes in. I did wind up sanding a couple of blanks on my circular/belt sander and it worked just fine. May do that instead of the mill but it is harder to see where you are as opposed to the mill and I haven't had that problem with other woods (only once when I went straight from gluing to milling - lack of patience).


----------



## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

I'm still using the thick CA on my pens..only got 10-20 seconds till dry, but no problems so far. As to tubing..ya GOTTA 'dry' try the tubes BEFORE glueing. On the slimlines I don't have much problem except on antler..BUT on the bigger pens some of the kits just dont fit right without some reaming..One little tip the guys at the Rock gave me..Try this hand countersink below.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1146&filter=DRILLS

I put the bit in my cordless drill and after glueing up and squaring, hit each end for just a second or two with this bit and it will round up the hole again and take off the burrs caused by squaring up. My problems seemed to be the hanging up of the ends of the tubes when slipping them on the mandrel cuz of the burrs.. Costs about 9 bucks for 3 bits..and used the hand deal for a long time till it dawned on me to stick it in the power drill..
Far as 'squaring'...if I got a blank that I cut too long, I just shove it up against the coarse wheel on my grinder to get it down to about 1/8th or less to the tubes and then use the squaring tool..Not nearly as much heat generated and that grinding wheel will gobble up that wood/acrylic / antler..whatever..pretty quick and you can peek and see how close you're getting to the tubes so heat is not a factor too much on the glue. Learned the hard way on the big pens that if I don't check the tubes before glueing up and just try and hammer them in that the kit is pretty well skrewed up beyond repair (at least the tubes).. just my .02


----------



## Viking48 (Jan 24, 2006)

What do you mean by "dry" the tubes? I have some of the reamers but I haven't had a problem with the ends of the tubes so far but I'm glad you pointed that out. I had no problems with the Cocobola but when I did the Mesquite the first tube went about 1/3 of the way in and stuck - no way would it go further and of course the glue set up (I'm using medium CA). I cut the blanks on the radial arm saw and set a stop so that I only had a little over 1/32 on each end after the tubes were inserted but when I ran the mill in to square up that little bit the tubes would attach to the shaft of the mill and spin free. I'm wondering if either the glue isn't holding very well or if the shaft on the mill is oversized at the top causing it to grip and spin the tube - guess I need to mike it and see. Guess I need to go play some more and see if I can figure it out.


----------



## Profish00 (May 21, 2004)

I put the tube in 1/4 inch then apply the glue to the tube. Then push it down on the work bench, use bubber mallet if needed. I also use a sander to get it square as possible, use the bushing for a guide.


----------



## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

V..by 'dry' I meant 'dry run'..i.e. slip the tube into the holes to be sure they're gonna fit before applying any glue to the tubes.. I ground down an old screwdriver to slip the tubes onto , then apply glue to tube and slip into the hole.. The tubes coming loose might be due to a little of the glue getting 'inside' the tube when inserting...this happens a lot on the big pens and I gotta take a pen knife and scrape inside the glued up blank until the bushings will slip into the tube...Not a problem so much with slimlines...if they are hanging when trying to put on mandrel, I just ream them out a little more with the squaring tool and it will usually scoop out any excess glue I missed on the first pass.On slims the only time I've had trouble with the tube coming out has been on the antlers and I think that was because I was rushing and didn't give them time to dry and bond properly . Now I wait overnight after glueing in tube before trying to square up the next day....02


----------



## Viking48 (Jan 24, 2006)

Problem solved. I checked the shaft of the mill with my calipers and found that it was .245 (which is the ID of the tubes) all the way to the last 1/2" or so then grew to .250. (I think these numbers are right - mainly looking at the difference). Anyway, it was .005 larger than the ID of the tube and with the leverage of the drill press I never noticed it getting harder. I loosened the mill portion and slid it down far enough to cover the larger portion and still had enough to clear the bottom of the tube. Ran the rest of them with no problem. I understand the dry run and will make that part of my process from now on. I may have to run the Mesquite through the drill twice or just wiggle the vise on the first pass to make sure it has enough clearance for the tubes. I'll chuck some up later and time the rest of the process and try to give Bobby a better idea of how many I can make. So far, it has gone pretty quickly by running all blanks through at one time. Finishing usually takes me longer but I hope to visit Biggreen tomorrow and see how his buffer speeds things up. Thanks for all the advice.


----------



## 3192 (Dec 30, 2004)

You can put a 1/2" bolt into the drill press chuck and use as a press to push the tubes in. It also works great assembling the pen. I liked the five minute epoxy over the CA because it gave more 'work time'. gb


----------



## Viking48 (Jan 24, 2006)

I didn't have any trouble pushing the tubes in until the first Mesquite blank and I think I would have needed a hydraulic press to get that sucker in. I bought one of those insertion tools - tapered shaft with a handle and it works pretty good. One of these days I'll find my stash of UHMW and turn one out of that - no glue will stick to it. I have a press to assemble the pens and it works real well. Got one more errand to run and then I might try to turn a few but it may be too late.


----------



## EndTuition (May 24, 2004)

I turned a green mesquite blank one night after drilling it, and left it on the mandrel. The next day I put a nice stainless steel band on it, sanded it and but a set of burn lines on it. Then I could not get it off the mandrel!!!!!!
Yep, green wood will change shape on you for sure ! I had to ruin the call and the band to get the mandrel back. Lesson learned.


----------



## Slip (Jul 25, 2006)

I also used 5 minute epoxy because it is slower to cure, expands slightly to insure a tight fit and also I would put the glue on tube and push through the other side and pulled out enough to recoat with glue. I was then sure a more uniform coverage of glue completely through with no worry of it ever comming loose from wood.


----------



## 3192 (Dec 30, 2004)

Also...make sure to clean those tubes with some 400 grit or the adhesive will not stick (as well). Some of the tubes will have a wax like left on them. gb


----------



## Viking48 (Jan 24, 2006)

Good advice here. I appreciate everyone's help.


----------

