# Funk in Freer



## KevinA (May 22, 2004)

We had a few of our mature bucks drop their horns in mid to late October and re-grow little nubs..... I am positive one of them would have been my trophy...

we heard that other ranches were seeing the same as far as 25 miles away...

anybody else experience this on their lease...

anybody know what would cause this to happen...

we have heard it could be a fungus and back in 2003 (wet year) it also happened???????


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

whoa?????


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## Reel Screamer (Jun 8, 2004)

Wow, that's really weird. Did you have more than one that did this? You might want to try and find some of those sheds. Maybe a Biologist could determine by looking or testing them as to what caused it.

LW


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## Swampus (Sep 1, 2005)

That's Trippin' Keven---Dunno--Big Ol' Bodies too................


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## oOslikOo (Jul 13, 2010)

deer in the first pic is a brute body wise...


Good luck in your qwest to solve the mystery.


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## BigBuck (Mar 2, 2005)

Wow, never heard of such a thing. If you did not know better, you could have killed several big deer as culls. It will be really interesting to see what caused this, and I would want to be on the watch for this in our herd. Very Interesting.
BB


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## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

Wow, must be a survival mechanism unless ya'll are shooting mature culls. Then those bucks would have just made a mistake. Call the bio and tell him what these sneaky bucks are pulling.


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## KevinA (May 22, 2004)

Guys 

all of these deer were put on the "Dont shoot List" because several of our better deer were missing so they got a pass hoping they have full racks next year.

A Biologist is involved and investigating...

snort.... all of our culls are 4.5yrs old or greater....


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

We did shoot a big ole heavy boy this year that has a little 8 point pencil rack. I wonder hmmm

Charlie


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## KevinA (May 22, 2004)

Guys 

this affected only a few deer and it seemed it was only a very small percentage of the older deer.

Charlie
you are probably good on your cull as he was an 8 pt...

all the deer that I think re-grew horns only had the short nubs and either no fork or one fork in horns..

some other hunters on the lease are reluctant to agree with my opinion because they have never heard of this, but they also seen a few deer with the funk and have no explanation.

its definately a mystery at this point....
It will be interesting next year to see if my deer re-appear with horns....


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## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

What area do you hunt? Interesting now that you mention it, my daughter shot a 4.5-5.5 year old big bodied spike this year down south of Freer and north of Hebbronville west off 16. His horns looked good at the bases and a couple inches up but from there it was if they had lost some bone and were smooth the rest of the way up.


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## craig ellington (Aug 15, 2006)

*interesting*

I'm going to ask our biologist.


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## GreyGoose (Jul 26, 2008)

are those rats in the first pic????

lol its funny to see all those little eyes glaring


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## KevinA (May 22, 2004)

Goose

it looks like two mice and three or four very small cotton tails....

We have a bumper crop of Bunnies this year...

we do have lots of mice as well, not any rats I am aware of....

The Rattlers and Cyotes will eat good this year for sure...


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## deerdude2000 (Feb 17, 2006)

It happened on the killiam ranch in freer and my ranch boarders it i have some of my bigger bucks missing thought i'd been poached now i wonder!!! they even found a few dead and are doing artopsys on them !!!


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## aggieanglr (Oct 1, 2007)

Our place is between Georgewest and Freer. About 18 miles out of Freer. We haven't seen anything like this. The wife did shoot a 140" 8pt that had never been seen before but we don't have any big bodied deer with new growth type racks.


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## B_Bop77 (Dec 3, 2008)

Think we've got something Funky in San Marcos too. This dude just Showed up (1st and 2nd pic). Biggest bodied deer I've ever gotten on cam in my backyard ( 2nd pic with average 3.5 yr 6pt). The last pic is a deer who showed only once in Nov, but has a similar build. I don't have a lot of deer through my yard, we've seen around 10 deer all year, so new guys stand out.


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

Antler growth is mostly regulated by the deer's testosterone levels. I know during dry times antlers tend to shed earlier than usual, and I can see them dropping their horns due to the drought, but, regrowing them is baffling to me.
I would love to hear what your biologist has to say about this. (Of course ask two biologists, and get two answers probably )


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## Flight Cancelled (Jul 7, 2010)

That's crazy we had a buck show up kinda like that but he was an 8 but I don't think he would make 10inches inside no tine length either weird lookin biggest bodied deer we've seen but no rack


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## idletime (May 11, 2005)

Those deer are in awful good shape to have been rutting too hard. Sounds like you need to take your trophy early next year, definitely before they lose their horns early again. Plus, if it is genetic, you definitely do not want that trait spreading around.


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## KIKO (Oct 24, 2006)

I'm no expert but from what I've read, It might have something to so with hormones. The signal here is the increase in body weight. 

Were the deer or cattle in the ranch being fed something different? Were they started on protein or maby a different protein or corn?


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## JuanGrande (May 29, 2010)

While we aren't experiencing this exactly in LLano, we do have anther issue that is similar. We have lots of bucks that grow antlers but they stay in velvet all year. Racks are usually pencil thin and unsymmetrical. Some of these bucks do shed the velvet, but rarely do they have massive antlers, they are usually "goofy" looking. Some have racks that resemble pronghorn or even reindeer (I'll dig up some pictures). What is interesting is these "bucks" do not have developed sex organs. Their testicles are virtually non-existent or very small. They stay in bachelor groups all year and never chase does. They all have big bodies, similar to steers in cows. We refer to them as stags.

My best friend is a vet and had asked a veterinary toxicology professor at A&M about this. Here is his explanation. There is a plant indigenous to that area that causes a hormonal deficiency in whitetail deer, notably testosterone, when eaten. This only happens in years with large amounts of spring rainfall. It is not known if it affects young deer, mature deer, bucks only or bucks and does. What is known is that the deficiency causes the bucks to not have proper levels of testosterone to facilitate the hardening of antlers. (or causing their testes to develop). This is easily seen in buck deer, the antlers are almost a sure giveaway, but it's difficult to determine the effect the plant has on does. 

Anyone else hear something like this? I guess I need to call the local biologist.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

get off that lease immediately and quit wasting your time and money on inferior killam deer... grab a spot on the chattum'up ranch next to Holloway immediately.. he kills big deer around that corner.


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## workn2huntnfish (Aug 1, 2008)

No, I think you need some more protein/corn feeders inside a high fence. Yep, that'll do it.


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

JuanGrande said:


> While we aren't experiencing this exactly in LLano, we do have anther issue that is similar. We have lots of bucks that grow antlers but they stay in velvet all year. Racks are usually pencil thin and unsymmetrical. Some of these bucks do shed the velvet, but rarely do they have massive antlers, they are usually "goofy" looking. Some have racks that resemble pronghorn or even reindeer (I'll dig up some pictures). What is interesting is these "bucks" do not have developed sex organs. Their testicles are virtually non-existent or very small. They stay in bachelor groups all year and never chase does. They all have big bodies, similar to steers in cows. We refer to them as stags.
> 
> My best friend is a vet and had asked a veterinary toxicology professor at A&M about this. Here is his explanation. There is a plant indigenous to that area that causes a hormonal deficiency in whitetail deer, notably testosterone, when eaten. This only happens in years with large amounts of spring rainfall. It is not known if it affects young deer, mature deer, bucks only or bucks and does. What is known is that the deficiency causes the bucks to not have proper levels of testosterone to facilitate the hardening of antlers. (or causing their testes to develop). This is easily seen in buck deer, the antlers are almost a sure giveaway, but it's difficult to determine the effect the plant has on does.
> 
> Anyone else hear something like this? I guess I need to call the local biologist.


I've never heard of deer doing this. But, my guess is the answer lies somewhere in the area of something affecting their testosterone levels and causing their antlers to shed prematurely (such as described above).

I'd sure love to hear the definitive answer if it's ever determined.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

JuanGrande said:


> While we aren't experiencing this exactly in LLano, we do have anther issue that is similar. We have lots of bucks that grow antlers but they stay in velvet all year. Racks are usually pencil thin and unsymmetrical. Some of these bucks do shed the velvet, but rarely do they have massive antlers, they are usually "goofy" looking. Some have racks that resemble pronghorn or even reindeer (I'll dig up some pictures). What is interesting is these "bucks" do not have developed sex organs. Their testicles are virtually non-existent or very small. They stay in bachelor groups all year and never chase does. They all have big bodies, similar to steers in cows. We refer to them as stags.
> 
> My best friend is a vet and had asked a veterinary toxicology professor at A&M about this. Here is his explanation. There is a plant indigenous to that area that causes a hormonal deficiency in whitetail deer, notably testosterone, when eaten. This only happens in years with large amounts of spring rainfall. It is not known if it affects young deer, mature deer, bucks only or bucks and does. What is known is that the deficiency causes the bucks to not have proper levels of testosterone to facilitate the hardening of antlers. (or causing their testes to develop). This is easily seen in buck deer, the antlers are almost a sure giveaway, but it's difficult to determine the effect the plant has on does.
> 
> Anyone else hear something like this? I guess I need to call the local biologist.


We have run across something like this every few years. Not alot of them but deer in velvet during the season every once in awhile. They are always big and fat and don't have much in the cojone department. They make for a good dinner or three though.


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## Blue Devil 7 (Aug 25, 2005)

Haute Pursuit said:


> We have run across something like this every few years. Not alot of them but deer in velvet during the season every once in awhile. They are always big and fat and don't have much in the cojone department. They make for a good dinner or three though.


Yep, I hunt in llano too and we have killed a few bucks like that. Most call them stags or cactus bucks. Some will grow a rack with some shape, and some just grow big mis-shapen cones on their heads. Supposedly caused by eating jimson weed, but the whole cause is not fully understood. This sounds a bit different from what the OP is seeing. Stags do not shed their antlers because the hormone levels are never right. I'd be interested to hear what the biologist has to say about that situation.


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## -D (Jul 13, 2010)

We have killed a few in Montgomery County like that. Large 4-5 year old buck with antlers that come up 1-2 inches and round off. No idea what causes it. Only reason we even put a scope on them was because they were chasing does.......kinda makes you take a second look when you see a doe running another doe during the rut.


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## -D (Jul 13, 2010)

We allways figured it was a genetic issue and the bucks reached maturity because the antlers were so small they went unnoticed.


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## texas8point (Dec 18, 2006)

Thats weird !


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

JuanGrande said:


> While we aren't experiencing this exactly in LLano, we do have anther issue that is similar. We have lots of bucks that grow antlers but they stay in velvet all year. Racks are usually pencil thin and unsymmetrical. Some of these bucks do shed the velvet, but rarely do they have massive antlers, they are usually "goofy" looking. Some have racks that resemble pronghorn or even reindeer (I'll dig up some pictures). What is interesting is these "bucks" do not have developed sex organs. Their testicles are virtually non-existent or very small. They stay in bachelor groups all year and never chase does. They all have big bodies, similar to steers in cows. We refer to them as stags.
> 
> My best friend is a vet and had asked a veterinary toxicology professor at A&M about this. Here is his explanation. There is a plant indigenous to that area that causes a hormonal deficiency in whitetail deer, notably testosterone, when eaten. This only happens in years with large amounts of spring rainfall. It is not known if it affects young deer, mature deer, bucks only or bucks and does. What is known is that the deficiency causes the bucks to not have proper levels of testosterone to facilitate the hardening of antlers. (or causing their testes to develop). This is easily seen in buck deer, the antlers are almost a sure giveaway, but it's difficult to determine the effect the plant has on does.
> 
> Anyone else hear something like this? I guess I need to call the local biologist.


You wouldn't be close to Castell, same thing there for 20+ yrs...WW


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## Archer (Jul 10, 2006)

I saw something similar happen about 15 years ago in MI. I managed to get leave during hunting season and spent all my time back home in the woods, saw lots of huge mature deer with thin scraggly racks if they had anything at all. Talking with several other hunters and landowners in the area I heard the same story over and over. In a 2-3 county area of lush farmland nobody was seeing decent racks. I saw one huge bodied buck chasing a doe that had 8-10 inch long forked horns with very little mass. I have no doubt he was mature, like 4-5 years old judging from his body, he just had no rack. Best I saw was a pencil thin 8 point with main beams that might have made 12-16 inches in length. Heard that the next year everything was back to normal and I never did hear a valid explanation for what happened that year over such a wide area.


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## JuanGrande (May 29, 2010)

wet dreams said:


> You wouldn't be close to Castell, same thing there for 20+ yrs...WW


Actually, yes. Our lease is off FM 2323. Not too far. This will be my second year on this lease, but my friends have been hunting it for 7 or 8 years. I have more friends that hunt family land on the north side of Llano and they have reported the same thing regrading these "stag" bucks. Although their sightings aren't as frequent.

Haute Pursuit is right, they make excellent table fare.

Wonder if this is anyways similar to the issue the OP has?


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## rbritt (Jan 20, 2005)

*I hunt a pasture on the Killam*

I have seen at least 10 deer on our pasture that had this same issue. Research is being done on the organs of the deer for research. I can't wait to see what they do next year and what findings they come up with. We have been told that it is believed to be a fungus that was the result of a very wet year. Who knows maybe they will come back as 170" deer this year.


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## KevinA (May 22, 2004)

Idletime - good point.

Rbritt - thats what we are hoping. thats why they all received hall passes this year... and its not like it was all of them only a small percentage..

We have heard all the same stuff about wet years, a specific plant, testosterone levels, supposedly happed in 2003 as well..

I will be back in the same place next year with my cross bow..


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## baldhunter (Oct 8, 2004)

*Early Antler Shedding*
*by Daniel Kunz and David Hewitt*

​
A couple years into the next drought, deer managers will be looking back fondly at 2010, reminiscing about the wet summer, the profusion of forbs, high fawn crops, large antlers, fat deer, and antlers shedding in late summer. WHAT? Antlers shedding during August and September?

Yes, you read that correctly. Landowners and biologists on several properties in South Texas first noticed otherwise healthy bucks shedding antlers during late summer and early autumn, often when the antlers were still in velvet. Because some of these bucks were photographed regularly at feed sites, they could be readily tracked as autumn progressed. Several of these bucks began growing antlers again, resulting in small antlers whose velvet was then shed.









This story begins in 2007 when David Kitner, manager of the Duval County Ranch, first noticed an unusual number of culls and contacted TPWD. Another guide from the same area also reported this problem. The deer in question had only the burr present or antlers only a few inches long. They were primarily middle aged or mature. It was obvious the antlers were not broken, just severely stunted. Three years ago we concluded these antlers probably resulted from a genetic abnormality in a small percentage of deer.
Fast-forward to 2010. We observed this phenomenon on helicopter surveys and in trail camera photos from Premont to Cotulla, and other reports came in from as far as Medina County. These bucks were sometimes harvested as culls on the logical assumption that the abnormal antlers were due to a genetic defect. Later, as word got out that the lack of antlers may have occurred because of early antler shedding, many ranches let these bucks walk. If antlers shed early because of environmental conditions, these bucks may very well grow normal antlers next year.








The number of bucks affected by this malady is small, perhaps a dozen on large properties with hundreds of bucks. However, understanding the cause and consequences of early antler shedding is imperative because bucks with antlers are important for recreational and commercial hunting. Another question we still have is why were a few bucks so drastically affected while other bucks on the same property produced record B&C scores over 200 inches, both in 2007 and 2010?
The annual antler cycle normally begins with antler growth during summer which is brought to an end when testosterone concentrations in the blood increase during September. Increased testosterone causes antler velvet to dry and hard antler to develop. Testosterone continues to increase through the rut, and then begins to decrease through late winter, causing antlers to be cast during late February through March. Although testosterone influences the antler growth cycle, there are other hormones, vitamins, and metabolites that may influence antler development, hardening, and casting. The antler cycle is physiologically complex and there is much to learn.
Back to the situation on the Back Forty. Why were antlers being shed during late summer in South Texas? One clue could be that both 2007 and 2010 had wet summers following a dry year. The working hypothesis right now is that a specific plant, mold, or fungus eaten during wet summers is causing antlers to drop. The ingested material could disrupt hormonal balance in the deer or cause a condition similar to ergot poisoning in livestock. The Duval County Ranch sent several deer to local vet Glen Wilkinson, who has seen this phenomenon before over the years. Initial testing indicates below average bone density, but no other abnormalities. Testosterone assays of blood samples from one buck indicate normal concentrations, although the buck was harvested several months after shedding.
Before antlers are cast this spring, affected landowners and biologists from the CKWRI and TPWD will capture some of the affected bucks on different ranches, tag them, and determine if they grow normal antlers next year. The outcome will provide guidance for biologists making harvest decisions if early shedding bucks are seen in future years.








In the meantime, it would be valuable to know the extent to which this abnormal pattern of antler shedding occurs. If you noted otherwise healthy bucks shedding antlers during late summer or autumn, please contact either Daniel Kunz ([email protected]) or David Hewitt ([email protected]). Let us know the county in which you observed such abnormal deer, and an approximate number of bucks affected. 
Enjoy the rest of the deer hunting season.

​ *About the Authors:* Daniel Kunz is a Technical Guidance Biologist with Texas Parks and Wildlife in Alice. David Hewitt is the Stedman Chair for White-tailed Deer Research at the Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute.


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## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

Good info BH


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## mexdeer19 (Jun 4, 2009)

I also hunt on the Duval County Ranch, and we had this problem on our two pastures. I found a buck dead that was 6.5 years old, and looked to be in great shape. He had a live weight of over 200 pounds and showed no indication of punctures wounds or cause of death. I took him to the ranch manager, and they sent him off for studies. In turn we did not shoot any of these infected looking bucks hoping they will grow back a normal set next year.


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## mexdeer19 (Jun 4, 2009)

Forgot to mention, that the buck's antlers had five inch bases on about six inch spikes.


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## Reel Screamer (Jun 8, 2004)

Kevin,

Any update on this? Just curious if the Biologist has been able to figure out what caused this.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I think I accidentally ate some of the bad plant.

Charlie


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## Reel Screamer (Jun 8, 2004)

Yo Kev? You still around?

LW


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Here's one over 200 pounds with a lil basket rack. Busted in the picture. I think he had the problem too.


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## ccbluewater (May 21, 2004)

Larry, he is fishing down in PuertoVallarta right now, I'm sure he will update if he has heard any more on this when he gets back.


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## WTN (May 21, 2004)

Old post but what was the conclusion?


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## Ron Ron Murray (Mar 5, 2008)

The ranch that this occured on is around 130,000 acres. I've hunted this ranch for 23 years, and we've seen this strange occurrence happen twice. In 2003, one of our wettest years on record, we had about 5 or 6 mature bucks [5yrs. plus] in our 7500 acre pasture that were button bucks,...........nothing but nubbins'. We had vegetation that hadn't popped up in south Texas in many,many years. It was assumed that the deer ate these flowers and vegetation, and it contained zero protein value, thus weak antler development. When it happened again in 2010, another extremely wet year, the bucks were not nubbin' bucks, but grew small antlers in the summer, shed them in August, Sept. and then tried to grow a second set of horns...small racks again. A few of these bucks were killed, and blood samples were sent to A&M for testing. This time it was determined that the deer were eating a fungus covered vegetation, and thus affected their hormones. We've had a pretty wet March, and if the rains continue, I'm a little concerned that we might see a similar occurrence. Normally a wet March means great antler development. By the way, this happened all over S. Texas,.....not just in a contained area.


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## HELOLT (Aug 1, 2013)

Never heard of such a thing.


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## 150class (Nov 14, 2012)

Old Thread but very familiar with the problem. 

Hunted on a place off Walker lane which shoots off hwy 16 to the right if your heading to freer (approximently 10 miles north of freer).

The biologist that worked our ranch and the surrounding places said he tagged deer that did this because he was initially culling them out until he saw one of his best 4 year olds with a big scar go from 160ish to a velvet trash buck as seen above. 

One tagged buck #64 went from 149 to 31 inches of trash back to 157 in the three 3 year span. His best explanation was a plant that grows only in wet winters that effects the deer when they eat it. I believe this was mentioned before.


We had a bobbed tail buck that was in the mid to upper 170's go to a piece of junk velvet 4 point back to a 189inch 13 point the year after when it was harvested.

Very interesting to see, had about 4 bucks routinely showing up to my stand that suffered from this that year.


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## txsmith1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Interesting read. Were they able to identify the exact source (plant, fungus, etc,) that caused this?


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## dbarham (Aug 13, 2005)

Seen more than one like this in Fredericksburg this yr my brother in law shot one huge body weird small rack


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