# Have you seen this deer?



## Bukmstr (Nov 12, 2004)

I dont even know what to say.......


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## essayons75 (May 15, 2006)

They need to give him steroids just to hold his head up. He will need a 50" neck.


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## essayons75 (May 15, 2006)

A quick search found the best score yet is 333-7/8 (see below). The deer in the video was 406 last year. Wow!

That title belongs to the "Missouri Monarch," a 333-7/8 buck found dead on the side of a road in 1982 near St. Louis.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

this altering genetics stuff is getting outta control


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

CoastalOutfitters said:


> this altering genetics stuff is getting outta control


I couldn't agree more!!! Why can't things just be left to be as they were meant to be. If it ain't broken, don't fix it! We keep screwing with Mother Natures design and us, our children, our children's children, etc. will pay the price.

Look at steroids in humans. There are deadly reasons why they are outlawed!


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## huntr4life (Apr 30, 2007)

For money of course!


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## shallowsport702 (Dec 11, 2007)

I think that deer is disgusting..If I'm going to buy some genetics, I would much rather pay for a huge typical rather than an ugly freak like that. On a side note, I would still drop that weirdo if he stepped in my sendero


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## PasadenaMan (Dec 5, 2007)

CoastalOutfitters said:


> this altering genetics stuff is getting outta control


 :spineyes:
Church's Chicken breeders share their chicken feed that buck.


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## espanolabass (Jul 20, 2006)

Thats nasty!


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

There not really altering genetics, there taking existing genetics and combing them other existing genetics. As far as that being a ugly freak, well his look is not my cup of tea, but sometimes really giant non-typical will produce offspring that are nothing but giant typicals and vice versa. 
The deer buisness is definately crazy, but it is a big addition to the economy here in this great state and helps a lot of people stay employed...from ranch hands, to vets, to feed companies, and so on and so on. Another positive that has been gained from the deer business is the research oppourtunities it creates, biologists have learned a lot about whitetail biology and behavior from captive herds. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think as long as everything is done in accordance to TPWD regs, and as long as the animals are well taken care of(which they are) then it sounds good to me.


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

Mike1010 said:


> There not really altering genetics, there taking existing genetics and combing them other existing genetics. As far as that being a ugly freak, well his look is not my cup of tea, but sometimes really giant non-typical will produce offspring that are nothing but giant typicals and vice versa.
> The deer buisness is definately crazy, but it is a big addition to the economy here in this great state and helps a lot of people stay employed...from ranch hands, to vets, to feed companies, and so on and so on. Another positive that has been gained from the deer business is the research oppourtunities it creates, biologists have learned a lot about whitetail biology and behavior from captive herds. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think as long as everything is done in accordance to TPWD regs, and as long as the animals are well taken care of(which they are) then it sounds good to me.


However, you feel you want to justify it, Great! I don't buy it and yes genetics can be altered by just as you said by combining different deer to do this, from different parts of the country and state, etc. Although, you may make bigger horns but at what cost (disease resistance, etc.)? As far as these captive deer being healthy, well that can be disputed as well. Ever heard of CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease)? Exactly what kind of good data has been gathered on Deer behavior and there biology from captive herds other than that that pertains to other captive herds? Certainly, not anything that pertains to wild herds as they don't eat the same, eat the same things, breed the same (obviously), etc., etc., etc.?

These animals are suppose to be the property of the people of this great state and if you ask me I don't want them or appreciate them altering them to gain a higher paying customer. These deer are not their private property unless bought from private stock out of state and then you can do with them as you please. As long as you don't involve the People of Texas's deer!

As far as the economy is concerned. I doubt very seriously that the deer breeding/altering services generate the kind of revenue that the cattle, sheep/goat, pig, chicken/turkey, etc. industries of this state do. As far as jobs are concerned, they probably generate or sustain very, very, few full time positions and probably even fewer vets, feed companies, etc. depend on the deer breeding operations for all their business. Another thing, that I'm sure of is that the great hunters of this great state generate much more revenue yearly than all the deer breeding programs combined and the majority of those hunters are hunting wild deer not captive breed/altered animals.


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

_According to the Agricultural and Food Policy Center at Texas A&M University, deer breeding is big business. The center released a 2007 study that counted more than 1,000 registered breeders who generate $652 million of economic activity and support 7,300 jobs. _

I got this info off of Stephen F. Austin University website...So do u think 652 million dollars and 7300 jobs is very low and not worth it.


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

Mike1010 said:


> _According to the Agricultural and Food Policy Center at Texas A&M University, deer breeding is big business. The center released a 2007 study that counted more than 1,000 registered breeders who generate $652 million of economic activity and support 7,300 jobs. _
> 
> I got this info off of Stephen F. Austin University website...So do u think 652 million dollars and 7300 jobs is very low and not worth it.


Compared to

"Texas agricultural production for 2007 was a record $21.8 billion due to higher crop and livestock prices, according to a Texas AgriLife Extension Service report.

Add another $20.8 billion worth of purchased items, such as tires, fuel and other agribusiness supplies used to produce a crop, and the total economic impact to rural Texas tops $42.6 billion, said Dr. Carl Anderson, professor emeritus and AgriLife Extension economist."

Its just a drop in the bucket!!

Don't even get me to look up how many jobs compared to the 7300 jobs that you stated!

Just the Hay crop production by itself was worth over 1.2 billion!!

Hmmmm, how much Hay does a deer consume annually?

Heck, wildlife watching (not hunting) generated over 1.2 billion as well and accounted for over 23,700 jobs and that was in 2001, Imagine what the number is today? I'm sure that most of those do not want to watch or take pictures of any animals inside of those breeding pens? Isn't that what Zoo's are for? I can't even remember the last time I bought a hunt at the San Antonio or Houston Zoo's!


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Comparing the deer breeding business with the entire ag production is a unfair comparison. Comparing one part of one industry with another entire industry is a mis-leading comparison. Comparing it to the hay industry does make sense, you said the hay buisness generated 1.2 billion, well the breeding industry came in a 652 million which is over 50 % of the hay buisness and I would hardly call 50% of anything as a drop in the bucket. 
The wildlife watching industry does not compare well either, there your comparing the economic clout of one species with the that of all the other thousands of species that people pay to watch. 
I get where your coming from drake, I too wish I could take off on horseback across the wild blue yonder and explore and hunt all of the wild places in this world, but the fact of the matter is that I cannot now, and I will never be able to. 
I definately see where your coming from there is definately a question of ethics, and I think you can make an argument for either side depending on how things are run...A five year old buck kept in a pen his entire life, turned out to be hunted on 20 acres is not a hunt and unethical. On the other hand a buck turned out on 5000 acres at 1 year old and not hunted untill 6 is somthing different entirely. 
Deer breeding is a part of the hunting industry and a important one at that, despite what you say 652 million is a lot to me, and I'm sure the 7300 people it employes enjoy having a job, and not standing in a welfare line. You have to realize that when you hear that astronomical number that hunting brings to our Texas economy it comes from hotels, and leases, and bullets, and rifles, and tacos, and corn, and from guided and or package hunts of which many are ran on ranches that have a legal and ethical breeding program that increases the quality of the deer on the ranch and increases the value of the bucks to be harvested, which puts money in ranchers pockets, and despite what our new government thinks it is not evil to make money.


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

Mike,

I dislike actually despise the idea of deer breeding/manipulation in any form. If you want to feed protein, corn, golden nuggets, or rice hulls, until the cows come home then be my guest but, when it comes to trapping, placing tags in ears, etc. and making the wild deer of Texas nothing more than a common domesticated pet for the express reason of getting a bigger pay check at the expense of losing our once strong and proud family hunting heritage here in Texas then I do have a problem with the whole idea of it. These people that govern our hunting should have never been allowed to start this deer breeding industry by allowing individuals the ability to trap these deer and then use them for their personal gain. That's no different than someone poaching these deer from the side of a highway, somewhere. If I was to poach (use this animal for my personal gain with no regard for others) a deer and remove that resource from the other people of the State of Texas and happened to get caught then I possibly could face jail time, pay a fine, possibly have my guns/truck/etc. confiscated, and last but not least have to pay restitution to the people of the State of Texas for replacement cost of that animal. So whats the difference in that and a deer breeder trapping a bunch of deer and using them for his/hers personal gain without regard for the others hunting in that area?

I'm sorry but these deer are suppose to be ours, the People of the Great State of Texas, ALL OF OURS!! At least thats what the laws intended to make them. Now, the Jerry Johnston's and the other "Royalty" of Texas believe they are owed this privilege because they own the land and have lots "O" money and the rest of use should grovel at their feet to hunt "their" deer when in actually those deer are already ours. I have no problem with someone owning their land and doing with it as they wish but, trapping the deer and other animals that once use to roam the entirety of that land regardless of fencing, I do have a problem with.

I don't mind and do pay my fair share to use a piece of land to hunt these wonderful animals and don't want that right to ever be out priced (already happening) or reduced to hunting an animal that was breed in captivity and then turned lose or altered in someones breeding pens and then the does let lose on the property just so that in a few years I will have to quit hunting that piece of land due to being priced out (which is already happening) and have to tell my son stories of how we use to hunt the completely wild animals of our Great State of Texas. Where does all of this stop. Why not trap and alter the ducks, redfish, trout, turkeys, etc.? 

I could go on and on and on about this subject. So I will give it a rest. Mike, maybe you'll be one of the lucky few that is allowed to hunt these beautiful animals in the future on the King's land. While I get to sit at home, telling my beautiful son stories of how we use to have the extraordinary privilege as children of sitting around a camp fire at a non-high fenced, non-altered deer lease and the men telling stories of the occasional monster buck and going to bed and dreaming of that Mossback buck and the anticipation of never knowing what you will see coming out of the brush rather than paying a guide to sit with me in a blind and telling me which one shoot as I always thought that was reserved for my Dad and Grandfather to do.

If non of this makes sense, I'm truly sorry. I truly get caught up in this subject and have so much to say and just take off writing.


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

Outstanding points here! Well done!
No feelings hurt, but I agree with TXDRAKE.


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

I have a couple more points and a challenge to you, Mike.

First, I want to say that I am ashamed to say that we the blue collar hunters of this Great State have let this situation happen to our once proud and sacred hunting tradition. We have not stood up and or stood by as the Jerry Johnstons and his other rich cronies have commercialized and condensed our traditional deer lease, sitting around the camp fire telling stories, passing on the tradition to son/daughter/grandson/granddaughter/nephew/niece, working on deer stands and feeders, smearing blood on the face of a new hunter as a right of passage, spiritual connection, deer season into a once a year, 3-5 day, fully guided, choose which deer you want, all inclusive, don't need your own gun, no blood/dirt on the hands, all I want to see is that 170-200+ inch deer head on the wall, disconnected, non-spiritual, spend 10-50 thousand dollars, vacation (http://www.jjtexasranch.com/). Because, to us the "trying to hang on to the traditional, hunting of this Great State of Texas" hunters, its much more important than a once a year, vacation weekend.

By the way, I am an extremely ashamed life time member of the "Texas Trophy Hunters Association" but, I joined the group way back when the magazine was mainly devoted to the mainly blue collar hunters that were just telling the story of how they bagged a once in a lifetime monster. Its not the same magazine these days. It should be called the "Texas Trophy Deer Breeders Association" now.

Mike,

Here's my challenge to you. Since you are so convinced of how much good the deer breeders are doing for us, then I have a challenge for you. Come up with verifiable data that shows where any of the deer breeding facilities in Texas have made a significant contribution to the wild deer herds of Texas by making deer more resistant to any of a variety of wild deer related issues such as disease, parasites, drought, etc. and if these facilities and people are truly managing our deer herds for us and then provide any verifiable information where these organizations have DONATED and released any of those breed super deer onto a non-high fenced (free ranging), non-guided ranch with the sole intent of improving the overall deer herds of Texas.

Then, if you do this, I will drive or fly to where ever you are in this Great State or Nation on my dime, with camera in hand, and shake your hand as a man and take pictures (to post them on 2cool as proof) and admit that I was totally wrong about the deer breeders as a whole and treat you and your immediate family to dinner and may even throw in a fishing/hog/duck/turkey/doe hunt for you.

What ya say, Mike? I will do all of this with absolutely no hard feelings.


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Working on your data...


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

First of all let me pick up where I left off. You keep saying trapping our deer, trapping wild deer, taking deer that belong to the state. No one is trapping wild deer. It has been illigal to trap wild deer since TPWD first made regulations governing the deer buisness. Breeders are buying deer from the other breeders and then selling offspring as breeder deer to other breeders or stocker deer to other ranches. There is not a deer alive in captivity today that came from the wild. Some of the first breeders aquired their foundation stock from the universitites almost all of which have breeding programs for the sole reason of research. The deer breeders often times work hand in hand with these universities. So in that aspect alone the breeders are helping research the whiteatail deer. Secondly breeders have to take a large percentage of deer that die in their pens to Texas A&M to be tested for chronic wasting, ehd, and blue tounge. They do this at their own expense, and at the end of the year when they go to renew the scientific breeding permit they turn in the information on all of the deer tested to TPWD. I was able to find numerous studies on deer nutrition that were conducted in captive herds that in the end resulted in new information regarding habitat manipulation and management to improve the nutrition for wild deer. As far as breeders turning loose their animals on someone else's low fence property, probably none have done that. Plenty have escaped into wild populations and enhanced wild herds, I realize that they are helping by accident in that case but none the less help is help. Also just about everyone knows that TPWD released captive deer, and relocated deer in many places across the state. There can be no such thing as a closed herd, all breeders including independent, state, and universities at some time or another work with each other. So by that thought any good that one has done, has been helped along by one of the others at some time. 
Despite what you might think I don't think breeders are the best thing ever and I don't think they should operate without regulation(which they don't.) 
I totally see where your coming from Drake, I grew up hunting in south Texas, we had a lease in Laredo and we stayed in a delapadated shack with rats the size of labradors. I sat around the campfire with my granddads, and dads friends, I am still best friend with the guy I killed my first deer with, I was 6 and he was 8. My dad guided quail hunts on a ranch in Cotulla and I would drive the truck for him at age 12, I've had adventures and learned lessons that I will never forget. I get it man, and I love it. I pray that every boy gets to experience somthing like that with their family. 
When you get down to it, it wasn't Jerry Johnston that caused this change in hunting, it wasn't blue collar hunters not stopping it. It was everybody's fault in a changing world. Hunting has always been considered a big business in Texas, at one point it was lease prices, and corn, and all the other expenses that drove the jugernaut, scientific breeding was just the next step in a ever growing market. Like I said I am not a deer breeder, and I don't think it's the greatest thing in the world but there is room for it. 
I respect your opinion and your not alone, and neither am I. Ethics are a subjective thing and can be debated till the cows come home. I just don't think it's fair to clump a entire group of people together and say they are horrible if you don't know. Just because some low fence hunters shoot across fences, and take low percentage shots resulting in wounded deer I won't clump all "free range" hunters as unethical devients. Like I said you have your opinion and I have mine. I just wanted to leave you with my two orginal points...
1.) The breeding business is economically viable and important.
2.) No one is trapping wild deer for their own personal gain.


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## jjtroutkiller (Jan 28, 2005)

Mike & Jason, both of you make great points and did so in a somewhat civil manner. Thanks to both of you for some good reading. 

But my vote goes to Jason, mainly because I could end up with sugar in my gas tank or a hole in my boat. :rotfl:

Seriously though if we continue on our current trend alot of us including myself will priced out of hunting.


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

I would hate to see anyone who wanted to hunt be priced out, but I don't understand what people mean by being priced out. People try to demonize people that run commercial hunting operations that have deer that people are willing to pay up to 20,000 dollars or more for, saying that they are pricing people out of hunting. There are a lot more places to hunt than these ranches. As a matter of fact these ranches make up a very small percentage of huntable land. It looks like there are a lot of them because we see magazines filled with ads for them, so people think well thats all there is left and since I can't afford that I guess I can't hunt. The truth is public land and landowners that lease their land make up the vast majority of hunting oppourtunities in Texas. Then I hear people say that lease prices are outragous, and they may be but lets think back. A good lease in south Texas was down right affordable in 1980, and substantially less than now. Well in 1980 a chevy truck was substanially less than now. A big factor in the increase of lease prices is inflation the dollar bill is worth 27% less than it was in the late 90's. I will say that there are some leases out there that are super expensive because of the increased chances of a really big buck, I know people that pay anywhere from $500 per year to 25,000 dollars for one spot on a lease, I know people that hunt public land in Texas with very good success that costs them hardly anything. The majority of land in Texas is privately owned and the land owners leasing their land are just getting market value for their spots. One of you economic wizards outthere figure inflation into the lease equation for me and I bet we would find out that the cost of a lease has not really increased that much in the last 20 years it's the inflation that has made it seem that way. Jerry Johnston did not cause inflation, nor did I, or any deer breeder, or ranch manager. It just happens...always has always will. I love to hunt and fish, and most of my friends do also, I hunt and fish with my dad, my son, my wife and family, and my friends. I think the outdoor lifestyle is the greatest one there is, I hope everybody gets the chance to experience the natural wonders of our state, and I hope everybody who wants to hunt can find a place to do so. The oppourtunities are there from a guided hunt for a 200" deer, to a high end lease in south Texas, to a family lease in the hill country, and a hunting club in east Texas, on public land, on family land. Remember guys it takes all kinds.


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## ELF62 (Dec 24, 2004)

Mike1010 said:


> First of all let me pick up where I left off. You keep saying trapping our deer, trapping wild deer, taking deer that belong to the state. No one is trapping wild deer. It has been illigal to trap wild deer since TPWD first made regulations governing the deer buisness. Breeders are buying deer from the other breeders and then selling offspring as breeder deer to other breeders or stocker deer to other ranches. There is not a deer alive in captivity today that came from the wild. Some of the first breeders aquired their foundation stock from the universitites almost all of which have breeding programs for the sole reason of research. The deer breeders often times work hand in hand with these universities. So in that aspect alone the breeders are helping research the whiteatail deer. Secondly breeders have to take a large percentage of deer that die in their pens to Texas A&M to be tested for chronic wasting, ehd, and blue tounge. They do this at their own expense, and at the end of the year when they go to renew the scientific breeding permit they turn in the information on all of the deer tested to TPWD. I was able to find numerous studies on deer nutrition that were conducted in captive herds that in the end resulted in new information regarding habitat manipulation and management to improve the nutrition for wild deer. As far as breeders turning loose their animals on someone else's low fence property, probably none have done that. Plenty have escaped into wild populations and enhanced wild herds, I realize that they are helping by accident in that case but none the less help is help. Also just about everyone knows that TPWD released captive deer, and relocated deer in many places across the state. There can be no such thing as a closed herd, all breeders including independent, state, and universities at some time or another work with each other. So by that thought any good that one has done, has been helped along by one of the others at some time.
> Despite what you might think I don't think breeders are the best thing ever and I don't think they should operate without regulation(which they don't.)
> I totally see where your coming from Drake, I grew up hunting in south Texas, we had a lease in Laredo and we stayed in a delapadated shack with rats the size of labradors. I sat around the campfire with my granddads, and dads friends, I am still best friend with the guy I killed my first deer with, I was 6 and he was 8. My dad guided quail hunts on a ranch in Cotulla and I would drive the truck for him at age 12, I've had adventures and learned lessons that I will never forget. I get it man, and I love it. I pray that every boy gets to experience somthing like that with their family.
> When you get down to it, it wasn't Jerry Johnston that caused this change in hunting, it wasn't blue collar hunters not stopping it. It was everybody's fault in a changing world. Hunting has always been considered a big business in Texas, at one point it was lease prices, and corn, and all the other expenses that drove the jugernaut, scientific breeding was just the next step in a ever growing market. Like I said I am not a deer breeder, and I don't think it's the greatest thing in the world but there is room for it.
> ...


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## Rockin'2 (Sep 26, 2008)

Thanks Mike, very well put.


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## capt.sandbar (Aug 31, 2007)

Altering the genetics of the deer and trying to develope the biggest rack and highest score is no different than baseball players using steroids and setting homerun records...


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## great white fisherman (Jun 24, 2008)

most of these freak deer have nothing to do with genetics. While a deers horns are still real soft notches are made in the horns. Each notch produces a non typical. It has nothing to do with genes or things like that. High quality food sources and feed pens are the same that make pigs and cows big and fat.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

*Man made racks*

In my teens some of my family had a medium size working ranch near Blanco/ Johnson City.
Grandma had three pet deer that stayed around the home place. The Mexican ranch hands caught one of the young bucks during his second year in velvet. They sliced about a dozen places on each antler with a razor blade. Each cut bled some. By the time he had developed a full set of horns there was a tine about three to six inches at every cut. He was very non typical but man made.

Sunbeam


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

capt.sandbar said:


> Altering the genetics of the deer and trying to develope the biggest rack and highest score is no different than baseball players using steroids and setting homerun records...





great white fisherman said:


> most of these freak deer have nothing to do with genetics. While a deers horns are still real soft notches are made in the horns. Each notch produces a non typical. It has nothing to do with genes or things like that. High quality food sources and feed pens are the same that make pigs and cows big and fat.


Exactly right!! Theres nothing ethically or morally correct about using penned up deer to make a higher dollar from the Sate of Texas peoples resources. These animals should have never and should never be put in the same category as the domesticated animals mentioned. Heck, I could pay a price to a rancher/farmer and walk out into a pasture with a ball-peen hammer, rifle, knife, sword, speer, or whatever and kill a steer or walk into a hog farm and kill one of a thousand market blue-butt's, couldn't I? Heck, I love beef steak and honey glazed hams but, thats not hunting!!!

Theres a reason for all the spot lights that have been put on MLB players that are using steroids. It is simply unethical and morally wrong for them to use steroids in any sports. Although, there are alot of similarities between them. Neither, the players caught using steroids or the pen raised super bucks will probably ever be eligible for the hall of fame or allowed in the hallowed Boone & Crockett record book, JUST AS IT SHOULD BE!! Just because you have the money doesn't automatically mean you get the blue ribbon or trophy, those have to be earned!


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## michdav (Jan 9, 2009)

Some of you speak of not being able to afford to hunt anymore, but I see it differently. If breeders keep producing big "super" deer, then the price will go down as the market becomes flooded. Supply and demand. I remeber when excotic deer hunting just was getting started in Texas was very expensive, and now, you can go for pretty cheap. It may be longer before this happens with whitetails as they do not reproduce as fast, but I think the "package hunts" for these bred whitetails will go down as more are bred and become more prevelant. You can buy 190 class deer for alot cheaper now than you used to could. Im not saying it is right or wrong, just a business standpoint.


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## michdav (Jan 9, 2009)

most parts of the hill country, you can see plenty of exotics walking down the highways becuase people dont even care enough to feed them anymore. The point I am trying to make is that if this happens, there wont be enough room in my house for all of the mounts I will have.


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

Do not give DIRT FREE CARPET any of your business if you dislike genetically altered deer. TXDRAKE I stand behind you 110%. rs


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## Hotrod (Oct 11, 2006)

I took a shot at that buck last year in the Best Buy parking lot in Katy, but missed and hit a car.


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Once again no one is altering genetics, they are not removing a whitetail genome shining it up and growing it in a test tube. High genetic breeder deer are not like steroid using ball players actually it is a very bad comparison. These deer are not given steroids, a better comparison for breeder deer would be like Derek Jeter and Monica Seles having a child. It's just breeding the best with the best. People seem to paint a picture of deer breeding facilities as guys in white coats with test tubes playing Doctor Frankenstien with whitetail and that is not the case! 
Drake I assume you were referencing people trying to make a higher dollar off of the resources that belong to the state of Texas, THESE DEER IN PENS DO NOT AND HAVE NEVER BELONGED TO TEXAS OR ANY OTHER STATE! I would also assume you are against any kind of high fencing right? What do you think one of the main driving forces in people putting up high fences is? Unethical neighbors that won't let deer mature, or shoot across fences. A good management plan doesn't stand a chance in hell on a low fence ranch of anything less than 2500 acres, and is only marginally beneficial on ranches of 5000 acres. All it takes is one neighbor with 100 acres to screw it up. So unless a guy can afford 10,000 acres of prime habitat surrounded by large neighbors he will never be able to take full advantage of the management plan that he has worked so hard for. For god sake look at all the low fence leases that have been shot out, and left in ruin to dupe the next set of leasees. A high fence is a measure of control to keep the surrounding idiots from raping your pasture.
As far as breeders cutting the horns of their bucks in velvet to produce giant non-typicals...That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! Breeders have many deer and try to work them as rarely as possible to keep the stress level of the animals down so working all of the bucks (some breeders may have 300 or more) in order to tweak their horns is not only unrealistic but totally false. These deer are worth a lot of money and their owners are not going to intentionally cause them harm. The antlers of a pen raised buck are dependent upon the the same thing as a wild buck...Age, nutrition, and genetics the only difference is the nutrition and the genetics of pen raised deer are better. I love a good debate, but the problem is people write what they're father-in-law's best friend heard from his second cousins co-worker as fact. Its mis-leading and not factual and unfortunately 8 people will go to work tomm. and tell people how deer breeders are razor slicing horns to grow non-typicals because they read it on the internet, and the cycle of false information goes on and on and on.


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

BLAH by BLAH by BLAH. Where is Aubrey when you need him? rs


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Thats a very clever response Rusty, did it take you a while to think of? Throughout this entire thread I have been respectful of other peoples opinions, while making what I believe are some very good points. Even though you make think my opinion lacks ethics (by the way, you are no one to judge me) I can tell from your last reply that you lack class, and facts to back up your opinion.


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## randyrandy (Jan 27, 2009)

That ain't right.
Watch him, he looks uncomfortable and moves awkwardly.
He's a freak, he looks like a freak. Shoot him out of his misery.
Dad used to say, "Just 'cause you can do it, doesn't mean you should."

TXDRAKE, you're right.

Steroids, presently, have no place in the preservation of the Whitetail Deer. They should be used only for the porpose they were invented, to save a (one) life. 
"Natural Selection" means, just that. Programs like those may ultimately cause herd failure if they are allowed to expand and become the norm. That deer couldn't survive in the wild. The rack itself is an achilles heel.

Money talks and bullsh** walks. True, hwell:. 
Just because a man has money, it doesn't mean he gained any wisdom.
It just means he has money. Often a man with money begins to believe that he is right now matter what he does or what he thinks.

That deer is ugly.:help::texasflag


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## MigllaFishKilla (Mar 3, 2009)

thats crazy 6 inches a day


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike1010 said:


> Thats a very clever response Rusty, did it take you a while to think of? Throughout this entire thread I have been respectful of other peoples opinions, while making what I believe are some very good points. Even though you make think my opinion lacks ethics (by the way, you are no one to judge me) I can tell from your last reply that you lack class, and facts to back up your opinion.


How long did it take to edit your opinion. LOL. rs


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## sandollr (Jun 6, 2008)

Mike1010 said:


> Thats a very clever response Rusty, did it take you a while to think of? Throughout this entire thread I have been respectful of other peoples opinions, while making what I believe are some very good points. Even though you make think my opinion lacks ethics (by the way, you are no one to judge me) *I can tell from your last reply that you lack class*, and facts to back up your opinion.


How do you know how much class someone has by a message posted on a thread about some freak deer? Because they don't agree with you?


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Rusty it took me about 10 seconds to edit actually. Sanddollar, i can tell how much class someone has from the way they express their ideas, and how they react to other peoples ideas. I don't care that people disagree with me, that is America. There are plenty of people that agree with me, the entire point of me writing anything in this thread was to maybe inform some people on the way things really are but I can see that some people would rather base their opinion on total BS that they hear from unreliable sources. If you don't agree with me fine, but my argument was based on factual information, and the truth. The argument against me was based on nothing but a bunch of myths and stories.


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## Rockin'2 (Sep 26, 2008)

I agree with you, Mike. I don't know how a deer could be genetically modified. If someone does, please explain.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

you are confusing lab style genetic engineering, where you actually physically modify a gene with simple genetic modification............creating superior hybrids with AI or embryo transfer.

Texas wild deer have a gene pool that is identifiable , as do northern deer, you crossbreed the two , which have no chance to mix in the wild ..............you get a superior offspring.................and you are killing or removing any inferior offspring along the way.

take a step farther and line breed the offspring does back to the same paternal buck to enforce a particular trait.

no different than livestock, it's done every day.


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

When it comes to breeder deer/ High Fences/ feeding protein/ Private Land/ MLD/ Crossbows/ etc/ etc

Someone always have to come in with the "right" way to do things...

There is no "right" way to hunt... if you don't like something... don't do it...

Hunters should be tolerant of each other and each other's practices...

As an Aside I Saw someone suggest a boycott of a business because one of the owners hobbies is breeding deer...

That is *REPREHENSIBLE*..


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## Rockin'2 (Sep 26, 2008)

I don't consider AI or ET a form of genetic modification, it's just crossbreeding. Maybe we just disagree on the definition. Steroids? I've always heard the rumors but, have never actually talked to anyone who actually had proof of it being used. I can't imagine any breeder taking that chance with these expensive animals. If all these methods are unethical, why have I never heard any of you compain about their use on livestock and crops? By the way, I think the deer is ugly, too. I love typicals.


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Steroids make no sense... Steroids are for MUSCLES... TESTOSTERONE makes deer shed their velvet... 

No one is using steroids to make their deer grow bigger horns...


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## Mellow Jr. (Nov 7, 2008)

jesus!


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike--I think your facts are scewed--plain and simple. This evening class will be in session and I will tell what I have personally witnessed as far as deer penning for the purposes of growing breeder bucks from Texas and Arkansas, so you want to play, game on. I won't attack you personally, that is one thing I can guarantee you. And Encinal, I have no problems with high fence ranchs-mld's-protein-food plots-etc., but 300 acre pens for the purpose of growing breeder bucks--I do not agree with. Anybody gets a chance, check out David Morris's comments on his Tecomate Wildlife Show , but I guess he is lacking class as well, according to 10-10. I have to go work now, but I shall return. rs


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Wrong again Rusty, I don't think David Morris is without class. As a matter of fact I think he is a very classy individual and I love his show. I really don't see David Morris replying to someone by saying blah,blah,blah. When this whole thing started all I was trying to prove was that the deer breeding business was a vialble and important economic factor in Texas. I think I have done that beyond a shadow of a doubt. I told Drake many times throughout this thread that I understood where he was coming from and it makes there were definately people out there that agree with him. Like I have said before I don't think that breeder deer are the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I don't think that everybody involved in the buisness should be ripped apart as wealthy, unethical, deviants who are looking to steal the states resources genetically alter them, mutilate their horns and sell them for a 20,000 dollar hunt on 3.5 acres of high-fenced grass farm. Rusty what you are right about is that some of that kind of stuff does go on. You've seen the Jimmy Houston video of the big buck in the small pen, one of the montgomery gentry guys whacked a circus bear, and people have hunted plenty of dog-tame exotics. You have crooked people in every business, there are crooked mechanics, car dealers, and the list goes on forever. Just like in these other business' there are crooked people in the deer business, and the hunting business, but they are a small minority just like in anything else. We can debate morality and ethics for eternity on any one of a million different issues, but what it boils down to is this... It's legal, and it's important to our economy. I like what Encinal said as long as it's legal everybody hunt how you want to. Rusty,sorry if you were offended about the class thing it may have been a little harsh, but if we were having a face to face conversation and I replyed to you blah,blah,blah you would probably be a little offended also.


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

Encinal said:


> When it comes to breeder deer/ High Fences/ feeding protein/ Private Land/ MLD/ Crossbows/ etc/ etc
> 
> Someone always have to come in with the "right" way to do things...
> 
> ...


So I should be tolerant of what certain individuals have done to our sacred hunting heritage in Texas? Making it into a commercial operation using the wild deer of Texas that are, by the way, not owned by any one individual is something we should be willing to tolerate? Using the deer owned by the great people of this great state for you to make a big pay check is something I should tolerate? Trashing/scarring/devaluing our beautiful Texas countryside with miles and miles of High fence making it look like a penal colony is something that we as neighboring land owners should tolerate? I guess, if we don't like it we can just stick it, hmmmmm?

I guess we should all be tolerant of individuals thinking that they own these deer and doing with them as they please? Poachers come to mind as I write that? They don't care what the rest of us think as they think its there God given right to take our deer anytime they wish? Hmmmmm, I remember reading of times when Kings owned all the red deer in England and if you were caught with one, you were killed. Sounding familiar? I thought our ancestors escaped that kind of tyranny when they moved here from there? Guess not?

Heck, I guess we should start tolerating poachers killing deer at night and selling the horns to the highest bidder? Oops, to late!! Whats the difference? Heck, It's there practice's or could even be there hobbies!

I know, I know, lets take all the deer and start herding them into cutting and holding pens, tag there ears, deworm them, crossbreed, inbreed, inject testosterone & steroids, vacinate them, Etc.!! Oops, thats right we already have!! Or wait are those things called cattle, no it was goats, no, no, I know, they were called Whitetail Deer!!


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

TXDRAKE said:


> So I should be tolerant of what certain individuals have done to our sacred hunting heritage in Texas? Making it into a commercial operation using the wild deer of Texas that are, by the way, not owned by any one individual is something we should be willing to tolerate? Using the deer owned by the great people of this great state for you to make a big pay check is something I should tolerate? Trashing/scarring/devaluing our beautiful Texas countryside with miles and miles of High fence making it look like a penal colony is something that we as neighboring land owners should tolerate? I guess, if we don't like it we can just stick it, hmmmmm?
> 
> I guess we should all be tolerant of individuals thinking that they own these deer and doing with them as they please? Poachers come to mind as I write that? They don't care what the rest of us think as they think its there God given right to take our deer anytime they wish? Hmmmmm, I remember reading of times when Kings owned all the red deer in England and if you were caught with one, you were killed. Sounding familiar? I thought our ancestors escaped that kind of tyranny when they moved here from there? Guess not?
> 
> ...


Well as far as the breeders go... they OWN the deer in their pens (at least the one in question is owned)... and I agree with you... they pretty much are livestock...

As far as the other stuff goes on High fences etc... What's fair chase?

Do you have a picture in your mind about like this? 









If not... what height in inches is fair? What height isn't?

:cop:


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Thank you encinal, they do indeed own the deer in their pens. Drake as far as "devaluing our Texas countryside with miles and miles of high-fence..." Guess what pal, it's not our Texas countryside. It belongs to whoever owns it, property rights are another reason our ancestors immigrated here.


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

Encinal,

Where do you suppose the breeding stock originated at? Did they pick them up at the local pet store? These were at one time wild Texas deer, wouldn't you agree? I've read most of the deer breeding laws for the state of Texas and maybe I missed it somewhere but, I found nothing that would keep an individual from trapping and starting a deer breeding operation? Enlighten me, Please!

As far as fair chase is concerned in my mind's eye and IMHO any fence that is high enough to significantly deter their normal migration patterns during rut or normal traveling under non-stressed situations is too high. Can an average sized deer jump, go under, go through, or around it during a non-stressed situation and not be injured in the process, that would be my criteria. Regular/Normal heighth fences in Texas do not hinder or halt a deers normal migration or rut patterns.

Mikey,

As far as your concerned! Yes, the land owner can do as he wishes with his piece of land and I'm all for land owner rights until it starts infringing upon my rights? So, what you are saying is that if the land owner next to me and my land puts up a high fence, his rights to have that high fence is more important than my rights as a land owner bordering him to not want it? Is that what I getting from your opinon?

By the way for all those interested,

Heres an excerpt from the "Texas Deer Associations Breeding Q&A's section"

*"Q: Why should I raise deer?*
Whitetail and mule deer are among the most coveted game animals in Texas and, indeed, in all of North America. As long as our hunting heritage remains a part of our culture, there will be a demand for trophy deer. That demand also makes for good business sense. The deer breeding industry generated more than $650 million toward the Texas economy last year and produced proportionate gains across the country. Deer breeding - or 'deer farming' as it's known in some areas - can be a lucrative and thriving business or simply a labor of love for those who enjoy deer."

Hmmmm, says nothing about improving our wild deer populations! Only talks about the need for growing Trophy Deer for payment and I love the "Deer Breeding - or 'Deer Farming' part!


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

Heres a nice place called the "Caprock Game Farm" (http://www.caprockgamefarm.com/) sounds almost like Old McDonalds Farm. They have over 400 animals in 29 pens or uh pastures on a whole whopping 160 acres. They are growing Whitetails, Elk, and even Red Stag/Deer.


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

Here we go, got a full house tonight, I want to start off with I am 43 years old, be 44 in December. I will not belittle those who disagree with me be it 29, 30 , or 60, I will say I have gotten some phone calls from 3 people who I think the world of asking me not to give the anti-hunters a position to broad'en their stance on this issue. I will oblige them to a point, but I will not cower to those who want to attack my character, you are welcome to pm me and we will have an iced tea or beverage of your choice if you want to listen and exchange opinions. I got in to the game in the mid 90's and saw how whitetail deer were herded into pens, and then smaller pens, for the almighty dollar. Put 50 140+ deer in a lighted arena, drug them and cut their horns off, wrap bandages over their head and apply this hot green wax to their skulls to stop the bleeding. Put these deer in a lighted arena where they get full lights and treat them to supplemants, protein, and B12 to make them grow to full potential to buyers. How many sets of horns do you think a whitetail can grow in a year, your guess is wrong, three when you put them under these conditions. Steroids--no--growth hormones and plenty of B12, yes. Some died out right, others were the breeders we want to protect. Their horns were cut when they "caulifowered" to stop the fighting between the bucks, and then when they saw the potential of the buck, they were sold. Would any of you like to be kept in daylight conditions to optimize your growth?? Did not think so, I will not give you graphs nor Breeders Handbook statistics, I think most of you are above this. Back then deer were penned, now we shoot them with helicoptor snipers with net guns, I do not think a deer intends to be attacked from above unless they can remember Teradactyles--and I think we can all agree there are no more flying dinasours. I will end it at this, bioligists giving deer shots alters their genetics, pure and simple. I could say much more, but I have said too much and probably angered too many, a penned wild deer for the basis of profit is not what it is about. You want to have that cold beverage and discuss what you believe to be true, I will oblige you, but do not say I have no class and have called for a boycott of a man's business--I am not hard to find. I will not afford you my future response, I will look at the replies and so be it, I will not argue with you and be my guest to respond. Thank you, it did not have to come to this, for you I have offended I am truly sorry. rs


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Drake, I didn't look at the website but if it is what you say it is I would agree with you 100% that with that many animals on that small of place would definately be a canned hunt. There will always be people that do the wrong thing, and nothing any of us can do will ever change that. As far as a hypothetical high fence between your land and mine, whoever puts it up is welcome to it as long as the fence is on their land. Most high fences are built 2 to 3 feet inside the property line. Thats what I've been trying to explain from the beginning...nobody is trying to infringe upon anyone elses rights, they're just trying to exercise their own. If they own it, they own it! You said you couldn't find where it said you couldn't trap a wild deer and start a herd. That is very illegal and TPWD will put you underneath the jail house if you get caught. When someone decides they want to be a breeder the first step is to apply for a scientific breeders permit, in order to get this permit a state biologist comes out to the facility that you will be keeping your deer and checks to insure that there is adequate shade, water, etc. Once a breeder has recieved their permit they are on the state's radar bigtime. Breeders must keep detailed records of every deer they have possestion of including where it came from, anytime it was transported, who it was sold to, and where it was released. The deer industry is highly regulated by TPWD as it should be. Sure back in the 1950's people may have trapped wild deer, but I wasn't born yet so I don't know. As of right now there are no wild deer alive in captivity besides maybe a few at universities for research purposes. Like I said it is against TPWD regs to trap wild deer and they keep a very close eye on it. Do some research on the people who have been caught violating these laws and you will see that the penalties are very, very stiff. It's not worth is for a breeder to trap a wild deer, why would they risk going to jail for 5 or 10 years and paying hundreds of thousands in fines to trap a wild buck that scores 180" when they can go to a auction and buy a doe that is the daughter of a 230" buck that is bred to a 280" for 10 or 12 thousand dollars. The risk is not worth the reward for these guys to violate the laws.


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

Mike,

I should have clarified as I was referring to an individual that has already obtained the required permits. What prevents those individuals from capturing wild deer on there land to start a captive breeding program? Nothing from what I have read.


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Rusty like I said earlier my comment about your class was too harsh, for that I do sincerly apologize. I was offended by your dismissal of what I felt like were very valid points. I was a freshmen in highschool in the mid 90's so I can't comment on what went on back then. What I do know is what I have seen from my own personal experiences in the last 2 years. In the last two years I have visited over 20 deer breeders in Texas and I have talked to at least 50. I have yet to see a deer breeder with a lighted arena, a lot of a younger bucks in pens do have their horns cut off to curtail fighting(which is in the best interest of the deer) but not in velvet, they are cut off when they are hard horns and do not bleed a drop. In some cases a velvet horn may be cut off if there is some kind of horn infection, this is done because a horn infection can spread to a deers brain and kill it. As far as steroids go, like encinal said steroids build muscle not horn so if they were giving them steroids in the the 90's they may as well have been pouring them on the floor because thats how much good they did. I don't know if a deer can grow more than one set of horns a year, I have never heard that, but why would a breeder do it? How could a breeder benefit from a buck growing 3 sets of horns per year, he can only be wearing one set when you sell him. Like I said I have visited many breeders, some of the biggest and most well known and I have not seen, or heard of anything like what your experience was. All the breeders I have visited have stayed well within regulations and always had the animals well being as their first priority. Once again I hope you wil except my apology for the class comment.


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

I know of several ranchs that helicopter a few of their top end bucks, put'em in a high fence pen(several acres) with 20 to 30 does and then cut'em loose after the does have been bred......never questioned the legality of this....just assumed it was legal....is it?


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Drake, 

The only way you can trap wild deer on your own land is a DMP situation. This is where a buck will be captured and placed in a large pen with 15 or 20 does off the same property. They can be kept in the pen for one breeding season and then are released back into the property. People do this so one of their better bucks can breed 15 does opposed to the 3 or 4 he might breed in the pasture. When you have a captive deer it must be documented where it came from, and it can't say WILD. It must be bought from another breeder, or born in your pens. Once again, why would a breeder do it? The reward is not worth the risk, you would be hard pressed to find free range land where you could easily catch a 180" deer. A mature 180" deer in a pen is not impressive when compared to other deer in the pen. Today breeders are trying to produce 300" deer, and a 180" would be a step backwards.


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

guess that answers that....


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## TXwhtlHNTR (Nov 19, 2008)

Finally had to say somethin'. 

Interesting thread.

Beautiful deer. I'd rather take a 190" triple beam, web horned, 20 pt. 'cull'/'freak' then a 190" typical 10 pt. Just my preference.

I don't know enough about breeding deer to speak about the matter with logic instead of emotion. Don't think it has to equate to 'canned' hunts, which are 
w-r-o-n-g.

Property rights? 
Those I'll speak about and not care if I speak from emotion instead of logic. I bought my home with no zoning or restrictions in place, and ten years later fought a five year losing battle against the city trying to keep from being subjected to living in a "Historic District". It has'nt been onerous, but a major part of the Magna Carta was legal codification of the immorality of 'ips post facto' law, regulation, or requirments/punishment. It was declared illegal. 



TXDRAKE said:


> ...his rights to have that high fence is more important than my rights as a land owner bordering him to not want it?...
> 
> Yes Drake, if there are no restrictions in place, and I own property next to you, if I want to build a 30' wall 2" inside my property line, my right to do so preempts the fact that you may not want me to. If I have 10,000 acres and you have 5 or vice versa. It is my property, I can morally build a wall. Or build a pond, plant food plots, farm, graze goats, heck, if I have the mineral rights, drill for oil or start a gravel pit.
> 
> hwell: Well heck that's just my opinion on the morality of the issue. Been there, I already know there are plenty of people of people who think they have a vested interest in, and a 'right' to tell their neighbors how to live


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

TXwhtlHNTR said:


> Yes Drake, if there are no restrictions in place, and I own property next to you, if I want to build a 30' wall 2" inside my property line, my right to do so preempts the fact that you may not want me to. If I have 10,000 acres and you have 5 or vice versa. It is my property, I can morally build a wall. Or build a pond, plant food plots, farm, graze goats, heck, if I have the mineral rights, drill for oil or start a gravel pit.
> 
> hwell: Well heck that's just my opinion on the morality of the issue. Been there, I already know there are plenty of people of people who think they have a vested interest in, and a 'right' to tell their neighbors how to live


TXwhtlHNTR,

Your exactly right in what you say and yes your correct in saying there is nothing I can do about it. Can I sue for the devaluation of my land, yes, I can, will I win, very unlikely. So as far as the letter of the law as property rights are concerned you are completely correct. Does that make it morally or ethically OK? Not, in my eyes, and until the law changes theres nothing much I can do about it except express my very strong opinions about it and carry a set of bolt cutters, cutting torch, or Det/Prima/Primer cord, because you never know when you might need to escape after getting fenced in or might need to untangle an animals legs or horns from an enclosure. Just saying.

I do hope that you live in a restricted area and that you will never have to deal with that Pipe Yard, Gravel/Sand Pit, Chemical dump site, pesticide plant, or zoo/friendly deer farm getting built next to, in front of, beside of, your property. I know, I would just love to sit on my porch and be able to see those deer running up and down the inside of that beautiful 10' fence. What a picture perfect setting for a Texas evening.

Heres hoping you the best. Best Regards.


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

TXDRAKE said:


> TXwhtlHNTR,
> 
> Your exactly right in what you say and yes your correct in saying there is nothing I can do about it. Can I sue for the devaluation of my land, yes, I can, will I win, very unlikely. So as far as the letter of the law as property rights are concerned you are completely correct. Does that make it morally or ethically OK? Not, in my eyes, and until the law changes theres nothing much I can do about it except express my very strong opinions about it *and carry a set of bolt cutters, cutting torch, or Det/Prima/Primer cord, because you never know when you might need to escape after getting fenced in or might need to untangle an animals legs or horns from an enclosure. Just saying*.
> 
> ...


That's funny... During the first "fence" argument 130 years ago they made use tools like that a hanging offense


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Rusty... I hope you don't think any of what I said was pointed at you... the boycott thing was directed at someone else...

That's really amazing... I'd never heard of people screwing with Deer's photoperiod to make them grow more antlers... jeebus... 

Weird.

Also... I'm not PRO deer breeder... I am just pro Tolerance and Pro Property rights... 

I'm not a deer breeder, never have been... and never will be.


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## Whitecrow (May 26, 2004)

Wow, this is probably the most civil multi-page post on this subject I've ever seen. 
I'm not a fan of high-fencing, and in my opinion, as the deer are still classified as being owned by the general populace, anyone who high fences deer inside their property is stealing from the state. It goes along with damming a river that might flow through your property. Inquire about that to the state. 
I think that landowners should have to apply for a permit to highfence. Once they highfence, a state biologist can survey his land and the highfencer can reimburse the state for the animals he has trapped. They could use a valuation system similar to the restitution fees paid by poachers. Wouldn't that be a coincidence??


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

Whitecrow said:


> Wow, this is probably the most civil multi-page post on this subject I've ever seen.
> I'm not a fan of high-fencing, and in my opinion, as the deer are still classified as being owned by the general populace, anyone who high fences deer inside their property is stealing from the state. It goes along with damming a river that might flow through your property. Inquire about that to the state.
> I think that landowners should have to apply for a permit to highfence. Once they highfence, a state biologist can survey his land and the highfencer can reimburse the state for the animals he has trapped. They could use a valuation system similar to the restitution fees paid by poachers. Wouldn't that be a coincidence??


I agree 150%!!! Exactly my thoughts!! You want them, then pay for them!


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## fuelish1 (Aug 3, 2004)

UN-FREAK-ING BE-LIEVE-ABLE


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## randyrandy (Jan 27, 2009)

I, earlier in the thread, stated my feeling. I'm chewing on this:


This continent, like others, has witnessed one tribe moving onto the land and using the natural resources as they wished, only to be moved out or replaced by another tribe that came along with their own interests for the land's use and it's resources. The tribes either warred over it, or sold it, for a few trinkets, slaves, wives, livestock, or whatever was negotiable, even ink on paper. Then each tribe did, and now continues to do, what ever they want on this continent. Each thinking they deserve to do with it and its resources as they so choose, because they have determined it is their right, since they fought, swindled, traded, or bought it. 


As long as the present culture/society is in power, the way it is....will be the way it is. If you/I, or a group doesn't like it, there are well known ways of changing the way things are. 


I have a lot more to say, but I won't, at the risk of hijacking the thread. I won't do that.
I agree with you TXDRAKE, Rusty S.:texasflag


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Why would you want to "change the way things are" when it comes to property rights. Lets make it illegal to build a high fence if your neighbor doesn't want it, lets let our neigbors decide what we should do with OUR property. Unfortunately it won't stop there, that law will give a perfect agrument for my neighbor built a house with a tile roof, and I really don't like tile roofs so he can't do that. Well my neighbor keeps driving down HIS fencline and spooking my deer, he's not gonna be able do that anymore and the list goes on. Nobody can infringe upon your rights from their property because on their property you have no rights. I realize that we stole all of this land from the American indians in the beginning, but that ship has sailed so now...Who can own a rock, who can own a tree,who can own the grass, etc., well it's whoever holds the title. In a changing world where we are losing rights on a daily basis, property rights are somthing we must protect!


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

I said I would reply no longer to this thread, as usual I am wrong, lets put this one to bed. I know the regulations are much different now from the mid 90's, I don't excuse TP&W for this, lets just get on from here. No hard feelings, we are all sportsman in this Grand State of TEXAS, in that we can all agree. rs


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## Mike1010 (Jun 5, 2006)

Well said Rusty, sometimes we just have to agree to disagree on something, but I guarantee there are plenty of things we can all agree on. I'm sorry to anyone that I might of offended and wish you all the best.


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

I never thought things got really out of hand on this thread. It was interesting to see people's viewpoints though.

The high fence debate still cracks me up.


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## Spec-Rig.006 (Nov 2, 2007)

_My response was too ugly ... edited to avoid the band camp._


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