# Prop Ventilation / Home built boat



## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Props: Turbo 3 Blade 13.25 x 13 pitch 
Powertech SWW4 13.5 x 12 pitch

Motor is a Yamaha F70 mounted on a 4â€ Bobs JP which is mounted so cavitation plate is about 1 below the top of a 6â€ high tunnel.

Boat I built, itâ€™s a flat bottom with pocket tunnel 22â€™ includes 16â€ sponsons. Itâ€™s a light boat, vacuum infused sandwich foam core, boat drafts about 5 to 5.5â€ fully loadedâ€¦ about 1/2 inch of tunnel showing when in water.

My tests have been on windy days 15 knots with gusts and about 6 inch to one foot rollers and sometimes sloppy chop.

The three blade could barely get me going, I had to really slowly accelerate with the prop blowing out the whole way. Had to keep her fully trimmed in. End of one day with the 3 blade, I had some really flat water and was surprised to get really good bite and acceleration.

I figured the 4 blade with a lot more cupping would get me that same bite and acceleration in the chop and Itâ€™s greatly improved but still blows out more than I think it should. Pretty sure it will really grab in flat water.

I trim in and jackplate down all the way to get going, any other configuration gives me excessive blow out. The motor isnâ€™t lugging Im just not getting traction. Iâ€™m starting to think my boat drafts too little and the prop is too high on take off??

Once running I can jack the plate all the way up and trim up but keeping the motor trimmed in gives me the least blowout. Water pressure is maxed out, no problem there. The 4 blade is already too much prop for this motor/boat combo but I can get her to the rated rpm by jacking up. Can more cup be added to SWW4? I am getting about 23 mph at 4400 rpm and WOT I can get about 29-30 mph.

The boat itself runs extremely smooth and dry. I tried redistributing weight and you can barely notice any difference, itâ€™s like Iâ€™m driving a big barge except she planes really easy once the prop bites, not much bow rise, no porpoising, canâ€™t turn without prop blowing out and I donâ€™t think she will turn very sharp anyway.

My thoughts are to get a Shaw Wing next .. anyone have any recommendations â€¦ Im out of Miami, wish I was in Texas where they know more about these type of setups.

Here are a few pics





































and a video link to show water conditions, also check motor, does it look like itâ€™s bouncing around too much? The other video I tried to get a shot of the runnel, hanging off the back with my phone, its not that good but maybe it shows something.


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## Chunkn' Charlie (Dec 30, 2004)

I followed your build on Bateau. I LOVE your build and want to copy your process on my next build. Your infusion process was remarkable. The only thing I questioned was the top of the tunnel being above the water line, increasing the probability of cavitation and the vented tunnel compounding the problem.

Did you install a valve on your vent line? I am curious if blocking the vent will help.
I would also suggest a cavitation plate on the motor similar to the one Boatright makes.
http://www.boatrightmarine.com/Accessories/tabid/118/agentType/View/PropertyID/6/Default.aspx

I am also curious if weighting down the back and of the boat, so the tunnel is completely below the water line, would help?

I really admire your work and the " thinking out of the box" approach to your build. Unfortunately problems do not happen in a box.

Is it possible to fill in part of the tunnel?

I also suggest you talk to Louie at Baumann Marine. He will give you the best guidence on props.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2013)

Are you sure the pitch is 12"? If I am reading PowerTech's web site correctly that prop only comes in 14" to 16" pitch. From PT's description of the prop it seems that you have the right application, although that's not the prop I'd use. I wonder if the engine you're running is too small for that size of a boat. Could it be that the engine doesn't have the torque to run a prop that gets enough bite. Also, the tunnel is a lot wider than I would think it should be. Maybe a anti-ventilation plate would help. I think it would.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Chunkn' Charlie said:


> I followed your build on Bateau. I LOVE your build and want to copy your process on my next build. Your infusion process was remarkable. The only thing I questioned was the top of the tunnel being above the water line, increasing the probability of cavitation and the vented tunnel compounding the problem.
> 
> Did you install a valve on your vent line? I am curious if blocking the vent will help.
> I would also suggest a cavitation plate on the motor similar to the one Boatright makes.
> ...


Thanks, was a heck of an experience this build. If I can help you with infusion tips let me know ... toward the end I felt really comfortable and if I did it again I would def construct a simple mold and infuse perf'd core both sides at once.

I also think your right on the tunnel being so close to the waterline. When I am on plane I can see that I am only drafting between .5 and 1 inch so I guess if I go over a wave, that trough is going to introduce air.

The tunnel is angle in and down slightly to compress but probably not going to help that much. I think next step is cavitation plate



[email protected] said:


> Are you sure the pitch is 12"? If I am reading PowerTech's web site correctly that prop only comes in 14" to 16" pitch. From PT's description of the prop it seems that you have the right application, although that's not the prop I'd use. I wonder if the engine you're running is too small for that size of a boat. Could it be that the engine doesn't have the torque to run a prop that gets enough bite. Also, the tunnel is a lot wider than I would think it should be. Maybe a anti-ventilation plate would help. I think it would.


Yes, this Yamaha F70 can't spin a bigger prop so that is def part of the problem, should have gone with the Suzuki 90 at same price. Either I have to sell this one or just hope the cavitation plate helps.

here is the prop I purchased, it's def 12 inch I had a long conversation about it with the people I bought it from and they seemed to know what they were talking about right down to that it would lug the engine unless I kept it jacked up.

http://www.ptpropeller.com/content-...owertech_sww4_stainless_propeller_yamaha.html


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2013)

If you go thru the calculations, you will find that theoretically at 4,400 rpm, a 12" pitch prop can't run 23 mph. Based on those calculations it appears that effectively you have a 14" prop. However, at max rpm of 6,300 you should be in the 28 mph range. Is your WOT close to 6,300 rpm? I looked at your video again and when running with the motor all the way down, water is not much above your cavitation plate (should be referred to as Anti-ventilation Plate, "AVP"). So, I'm not sure how much good an AVP would do. I might set the engine back a ways to see if that helps. Again looking at the video, I can understand why you have to jack the motor all the way down to get on plane. Until you get up to speed the prop is probably not getting much water.

By the way, nice boat, good job.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

I have an update... Just ran her through some really sloppy chop and in the worst part some two footers.

I had both my neighors and their dog, about 380 lbs sitting in back and the boat ran great, was able to get the bow up ans actually trim up a bit so she felt good running ,,, think I should move the console back a few feet


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## ziggiey (Apr 6, 2010)

*Jack plate*

Why not just lower jackplate and motor, up travel should still allow you to run plenty shallow while underway. Awesome job building the boat.


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## TexasFlats (Mar 29, 2007)

I agree on lowering the motor. It isn't unusual to need the motor all the way down & trimmed to get out of the hole.

Tunnel is fine - it is supposed to be able to feed water to the prop when the motor is above the bottom of the boat. You definitely could use an anti-cav plate.

Be cautious on moving the console back - your weight distribution won't be linear as you move away from the COG.

Link to bateau?

Looks awesome.

.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

My neighbor is saying the same thing. I can lower it about 1.5 inches That is where the backplate hits the deck.

I was wondering has anyone heard of using an adapter plate that bolts between motor and jackplate that I could add a bunch more holes to so I could lower the motor up to maybe 3 inches more. I might call Bobs tomorrow and ask them if they could fabricate something like that. I think another inch of setback wouldn't hurt, I have plenty of water coming out of the tunnel.

On way back from sandbar boat behaved really well again with them in the back, no tendency to ventilate at all, very smooth running and completely dry. Starting to like this boat!!

Link to the build is this one:
http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=28463


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2013)

These are available from CMC: http://www.cmcmarineproducts.com/products/Outboard-Jack-Plates/Static-Height-Plates
They can be used to either lower or rise the engine. The 2-1/2" Static Jack Plate would allow you to lower the engine 1-1/2" and give you a 2-1/2" set back, which should help with balance in addition to providing more water to your prop.

Are you having problems getting on plane with the jack plate all the way down and the engine trimmed all the way in? If not, why lower the engine?


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> These are available from CMC: http://www.cmcmarineproducts.com/products/Outboard-Jack-Plates/Static-Height-Plates
> They can be used to either lower or rise the engine. The 2-1/2" Static Jack Plate would allow you to lower the engine 1-1/2" and give you a 2-1/2" set back, which should help with balance in addition to providing more water to your prop.
> 
> Are you having problems getting on plane with the jack plate all the way down and the engine trimmed all the way in? If not, why lower the engine?


I think this would do the trick, prefer that over drilling new holes in the transom and I can extend the tunnel a bit if I need to.

It seems with some extra weight in the back the ventilation problems just about disappear. I can't rocket up on plane but if I gradually throttle up she speeds up till on plane without any bow rise. Still have to add a poling platform back there and a couple of live wells.

As it is now, jacked up all the way my prop would be 2" below the water, I don't need to run that shallow, it's reassuring but would be rare that I use it so I want to drop the motor.

Thanks for all your comments.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2013)

You will not need to and should not extend the tunnel. In fact moving the engine farther from the transom should help. To a certain extent, moving the engine back has the same effect as moving the engine up. You might also consider transom wedges. These would allow you to trim the engine in further and reduce bow rise on takeoff plus submerge the prop deeper. Bob's makes some good ones.


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## [email protected] (Jun 25, 2005)

I think a Shaw Wing would help a lot with the blowing out problem. That boat is sweet and I can only imagine how shallow that thing will run if you had to take her really shallow. With a Cav plate you should be able to run in mere inches of water if needed.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Maybe it's just me but seems your tunnel is just too big for that light of a boat. Just like your motor can't sling that big of a prop, the boat may not be able to gather enough water at slow enough speed to make tunnel useful. For example look at my old setup. Similar light flat hull with lower power. Much smaller tunnel with my motor mounted much higher. Only 1/3 of my prop was in the water and it would run in humidity it seemed. When trimmed just a touch the bottom of my skeg was above the bottom of my boat. If it would move at all under its own power it would get up from sitting on the bottom. That is a static jackplate non adjustable so I had traction always. It would eject you on hole shot. Generally for tunnels you want as little setback as possible so your prop can grab good clean tight water that your boat has gathered out of that tunnel. My setup blew out bad with everything except a Power tech cff4....I have heard a turbo fx4 is good too....I think your tunnel is just too big to work. Hope that helps. Maybe experiment with some plugs....


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

That boat is a little over 18ft.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I think a Shaw Wing would help a lot with the blowing out problem. That boat is sweet and I can only imagine how shallow that thing will run if you had to take her really shallow. With a Cav plate you should be able to run in mere inches of water if needed.


I'm ordering one today. Jacked up the prop is still 2" under the bottom of the boat and then whatever the skeg is but that should be good enough for 99 percent of where I run.



[email protected] said:


> You will not need to and should not extend the tunnel. In fact moving the engine farther from the transom should help. To a certain extent, moving the engine back has the same effect as moving the engine up. You might also consider transom wedges. These would allow you to trim the engine in further and reduce bow rise on takeoff plus submerge the prop deeper. Bob's makes some good ones.


I have quite a bit of rake on the transom, negative trim is not the problem, I get virtually no bow rise on taking off. Bob;s told me with a tunnel I want to keep the motor closer to the tunnel...??



sgrem said:


> Maybe it's just me but seems your tunnel is just too big for that light of a boat. Just like your motor can't sling that big of a prop, the boat may not be able to gather enough water at slow enough speed to make tunnel useful. For example look at my old setup. Similar light flat hull with lower power. Much smaller tunnel with my motor mounted much higher. Only 1/3 of my prop was in the water and it would run in humidity it seemed. When trimmed just a touch the bottom of my skeg was above the bottom of my boat. If it would move at all under its own power it would get up from sitting on the bottom. That is a static jackplate non adjustable so I had traction always. It would eject you on hole shot. Generally for tunnels you want as little setback as possible so your prop can grab good clean tight water that your boat has gathered out of that tunnel. My setup blew out bad with everything except a Power tech cff4....I have heard a turbo fx4 is good too....I think your tunnel is just too big to work. Hope that helps. Maybe experiment with some plugs....


If you mean in the height direction I think you might be right though she did not ventilate when I had the weight in the rear ...

The steps I will take are
1. lower motor 1.5 inch. Think I will just drill the transom so I don't move the motor back any further.

2. Get a shaw wing, Im hoping this will help with blowout in the turns as well as getting up on plane with the extra weight I plan to add back there.

3. Add some weight to the back.Should of bit the bullet and just got a bigger motor. I still have a poling platform and miscellaneous going on back there and now I think I will add a couple of portable 20 gallon live wells that ought to get me the ballast I need. Im going to stack a bunch of buckets filled with water back there next weekend and try again with both props that I have.

4. Add more cup to my 3 blade Turbo. I got a good taste of acceleration in flat water with that prop. I think the combination of sinking the back end and the shaw wing might make it my prop of choice.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Think I understand what is going on. I had to redesign the hull to get all the stations so I could build the jig for foam core vac infusion. When I did that I added a bit of rocker starting about 6' forward of the stern. I read that flats cat did that and not knowing any better I did it too thinking it would also help with poling this thing around and keeping the bow up.

My COG looks about right when it's just me on there and I am idling but I think as soon as I throttle her it picks the stern up and pushes the bow down blowing out the tunnel... like a seesaw. It makes sense to me

Once the stern is held down I think this problem will mostly go away, here is a pic of me idling and an illustration of what I think is the main part of the problem. I still need that cav plate if only to help on turns not blowing out but I want to hold off on lowering the motor, I'l do that if everything else fails


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

I would get a ventilation plate from Tran Sport. They have much more sides. The shaw wing is mostly just flat. The aTran plate curves around the prop much more and mounts underneath the cav plate so it holds water closer to prop.

But it would be fiberglass...


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

sgrem said:


> I would get a ventilation plate from Tran Sport. They have much more sides. The shaw wing is mostly just flat. The aTran plate curves around the prop much more and mounts underneath the cav plate so it holds water closer to prop.
> 
> But it would be fiberglass...


I'l have a look, need to order one right now, hopefully get it by next weekend.


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## Capt. Lowtide (Jun 30, 2004)

*Tran Sport made plate*

Here are some pics of a Tran Sport manufactured plate mentioned above. Cut to mount on a 40-70 hp Yamaha. It is available for sale much less than a new build or a shaw wing. PM if interested- Curtiss


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## Capt. Lowtide (Jun 30, 2004)

I see the OP is not set up for Private Messaging, I can be reached at 361-564-7032

I picked up the plate in a trade, from original owner. It took two weeks for Tran to build this and he paid in the neighborhood of $250. The Ranger Banshee was tested with 3 & 4 bladed props on a 50 hp Yamaha w/ Bob's low water. It held water too good, slowing the boat from 28/25 mph to 24/20 mph at 5600/5000 rpm's @ WOT. The owner removed after one day on the water.

I did not run the boat with plate installed and question the results the owner observed. I believe that the jackplate may have been set too low allowing water to flow over the plate instead of under it. I have seen several other boats with these installed and the owners raved about increased performance.

I would have been very disapointed paying that much for such a non-asthetically pleasing product though. You can see the uneven cut/ground edges and haphazardly applied resin and gelcoat in the pics above. The plate is most likely bullet proof and indestructible once mounted on an engine.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2013)

I know from personal experience that moving the engine back will allow you to raise the engine. I can't explain why "Bob" would think otherwise. There is a rule of thumb about high much you can raise the motor relative to how much you move the engine back. It's something like 1/8" for every 1". As water exits the tunnel it continues to rise until gravity takes over. By moving the engine back you are taking advantage of that rise in the exiting water. In fact there are Texas flats boats without tunnels that can run shallow because of the amount of setback. Also, as I mentioned before, I also think your tunnel is to wide. 

From what I understand flats boats normally have hook rather than rocker to lift the stern. Rocker creates a vacuum that pulls the stern down. I took the rocker out of one my boats to reduce bow rise and drag.

I have tried both the Trans AVP and a Shaw type AVP. I did not notice much difference other that a loss of some speed with the Trans. I believe it creates more drag.

Dropping the engine should help. But if it were my boat, I'd do it with the setback plate and probably also add transom wedges. Wish you were closer because I have both of those items and would be glad to let you try them, as well as both AVPs. I'm in Texas.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Capt. Lowtide said:


> I see the OP is not set up for Private Messaging, I can be reached at 361-564-7032
> 
> I picked up the plate in a trade, from original owner. It took two weeks for Tran to build this and he paid in the neighborhood of $250. The Ranger Banshee was tested with 3 & 4 bladed props on a 50 hp Yamaha w/ Bob's low water. It held water too good, slowing the boat from 28/25 mph to 24/20 mph at 5600/5000 rpm's @ WOT. The owner removed after one day on the water.
> 
> ...


I ended up going with the Shaw Wing just because they got back to me the fastest, Neither Boatright nor Tran got back to me. Boatright doesn't return emails or pick up the phone LOL, I should be in TX. make this a lot easier, can't even get Bauman to return an email.

Bobs said that because my tunnel was angled down that I didn't want to have a lot of setback. I have zero experience on these type of boats so I just went with what they said, you could be right. I know on non-tunnels it's def the way you say.

Also as to my tunnel it's the width spec by the designer, all I did was make it round and higher not square as he designed it. It's actually a hair narrower but anyway once I got that extra weight in the back the tunnel is now angled down and pumping big time. No slip

I am going to try this coming weekend. hopefully get some calm water and stack a bunch of five gallon buckets filled with water on each side. Going to retry the 3 blade with the extra weight too. I bet if I add some extreme cup to that prop I might have a winner otherwise I think I am going to have to have the 4 blade modified a bit so the motor can get to full rpm.

If I can duplicate the results of last weekend and even improve on them I will start planning to move the console backward but I am going to get the metal fabricator to build me some rails so I can slide the console into the optimum position as I test.

If I come up with anything revealing this weekend I will post it. Hopefully I will have the shaw wing too, they had some black ones ready to go but I doubt it will be here on time, I took the cheaper ground shipping, my budget is nearing zero!

Thanks for the help!!


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Shaw Wing didn't make it time. Played around a bit more with weight, switched back to the 3 blade Turbo 1 and am liking it much better with that weight shift. Got 30.5 at 5800 rpm not perfectly trimmed out, I hope the Shaw Wing will help me trim it and that was in wind and some decent chop.

Im going to switch out the powertech, supposedly if I return it within 30 days I can get another better suited. That SWW4 is a dog in all areas, it grips but no hole shot, sluggish mid range and top end compared to the Turbo.

Has anyone experienced rust spots on their SS Blades? This powertech prop is already covered in them, I don't get it?? It's only been run a couple of hours and I rinsed it off good.

I tried to clean it with glass cleaner, they don't come off, not going to steel wool cause they say can't be scratched or dinged to return. This is my first SS prop. doesn't seem right ... I bought it from http://www.ptpropeller.com ... hope this isn't some cheap knock off!!


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## locolobo (Dec 2, 2005)

Jorge, Is that a Bateau design? Have glanced @ Bateau for years, but not recently, and have not seen that boat design before. Wanting to downsize and thinking of a build myself.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

On a Flats boat you will need hole shot. Setback is your enemy as the boat lurches under acceleration more setback digs the motor into the bottom worse....you want as little setback as possible if you are running that way for shallow water hole shot.

SS will rust some. No worries at all. The more rust spots you have the stronger the prop. Carbon steel is stronger than pure SS so they have to add in some for strength to make them last. If it's bright shiny always and you truly run way shallow, that soft pure SS prop won't last and will have to be reworked more often. Rust spots are welcomed knowing you have a stronger built prop to dig with when running shallow.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2013)

sgrem, I understand what you are saying and while it might seem like that would be the case, based on my actual experience, my boat had less bow lift when I moved the engine back. Also, remember the boat in question has sponsons, as does mine, which changes the dynamics. I don't think there would be much squat (lurch?) for that boat. Anyway that's my opinion wright or wong.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Also, with a tunnel that river of water created only holds together tight for so long....your motor needs to be tight up against the transom to use it all for best grip before it loses whatever form it had and dissipates back down. 
On a normal non tunnel boat set back makes sense. On a tunnel you want the motor tucked tight into that river your boat is creating. 

Think about it....most every tunnel hull manufacturer makes theirs in a key slot transom to bring motor in tighter (and for weight transfer).

Most every flat or v hull makes their transom sweep back into that dove tail thing....that is to get the motor farther away into the swell.

Both have their place. But for tunnels tight to will always be most advantages.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2013)

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree. But one last comment........that river rises as it leaves the tunnel regardless if there are sponsons or not.


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## FREON (Jun 14, 2005)

jorgepease said:


> I ended up going with the Shaw Wing just because they got back to me the fastest, Neither Boatright nor Tran got back to me. Boatright doesn't return emails or pick up the phone LOL, I should be in TX. make this a lot easier, can't even get Bauman to return an email.


I am sure that Baumann didn't return your email because you spelled their name wrong!!! Maybe that is what happened with Boatright too!! You probably dialed the wrong number also!!! It is pretty crappy of you to run a business down because of your mistake!!!!!!


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

locolobo said:


> Jorge, Is that a Bateau design? Have glanced @ Bateau for years, but not recently, and have not seen that boat design before. Wanting to downsize and thinking of a build myself.


Yes, it's the XF20 modified a bit.



sgrem said:


> On a Flats boat you will need hole shot. Setback is your enemy as the boat lurches under acceleration more setback digs the motor into the bottom worse....you want as little setback as possible if you are running that way for shallow water hole shot.
> 
> SS will rust some. No worries at all. The more rust spots you have the stronger the prop. Carbon steel is stronger than pure SS so they have to add in some for strength to make them last. If it's bright shiny always and you truly run way shallow, that soft pure SS prop won't last and will have to be reworked more often. Rust spots are welcomed knowing you have a stronger built prop to dig with when running shallow.


That is interesting about the prop. I sent the 4 blade back and have their 3 blade SCD 13x14 coming.



[email protected] said:


> sgrem, I understand what you are saying and while it might seem like that would be the case, based on my actual experience, my boat had less bow lift when I moved the engine back. Also, remember the boat in question has sponsons, as does mine, which changes the dynamics. I don't think there would be much squat (lurch?) for that boat. Anyway that's my opinion wright or wong.


Watching youtube videos on hole shot, my boat has relatively very little squat in comparison. I just ease the throttle forward and she gradually comes up on plane, in the keys I don't need to jump up in a short distance, just need to be able to cross from one channel to another.



sgrem said:


> Also, with a tunnel that river of water created only holds together tight for so long....your motor needs to be tight up against the transom to use it all for best grip before it loses whatever form it had and dissipates back down.
> On a normal non tunnel boat set back makes sense. On a tunnel you want the motor tucked tight into that river your boat is creating.
> 
> Think about it....most every tunnel hull manufacturer makes theirs in a key slot transom to bring motor in tighter (and for weight transfer).
> ...


I was actually thinking of extending the tunnel back a bit because in the video I could see where the hill starts to fall almost right away.



FREON said:


> I am sure that Baumann didn't return your email because you spelled their name wrong!!! Maybe that is what happened with Boatright too!! You probably dialed the wrong number also!!! It is pretty crappy of you to run a business down because of your mistake!!!!!!


Not Exactly, they have an answering machine, no mistake here. It's not the first I heard it happening either, some others on Batteau mentioned it happened to them too but Im not putting their product down regardless.

The Shaw Wing arrived, the notch looks a little strange, hope it fits, I will try it out this weekend. It looks like it might work by keeping air from getting sucked in over the top of the prop forcing water to be pulled horizontally only from in front and below.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Got the cav plate on and the new SCD prop 13 x 14 came in.

Put the plate on and tried with the Turbo 1 13.25 x 13. It showed enough improvement in hole shot, turning and minimizing blow out that it's worth it.

Tried with the Powertech 13 x 14 and it was pretty responsive through all ranges, got 32 mph out of her but performance went down quickly with more weight.

Put the Turbo1 back on and went fishing with 3 others. Me in the center, 2 in back and one up front. The extra weight spread out made a huge difference, she didn't ventilate at all, was able to trim her up nicely and we cruised over the top of 2-3 footers very dry and comfortable with no pounding at all! 

In a following sea (same thing 2-3 footers) with the wind behind us I was pleased how smooth she ran, no plowing or squirelling around, 5000 rpm all the way in.

We covered about 30 miles round trip so plenty of time to play with trim and jackplate. I found the sweet spot to be 3in up despite the rough water and trimmed 25% to 50%.

The only time she pounded was in a short chop and it was not bad, I eased back to 4000 rpm and it smoothed out.

I really like the Turbo1 prop for this motor


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

In case anyone is interested, here is a video running the cav plate. The beginning of video shows how much splash back and drag you can get if you don't have it raised right. My tunnel appears to be pumping out a good stream of water


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

The key will be how it works at about 10-12mph when exploring around the flats. Done any slow testing?


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

No slow testing yet. Will see how she performs next weekend. Maybe the winds will die down a bit too. 

What should I be looking for, 
-Slowest speed and still be on plane 
-Slow speed maneuvering, 
-Max motor height and still get water pressure and keep tunnel filled.

... anything else


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Yes all of the above....running shallow takes a lot of experience with throttle control to keep grip on the prop while turning and sliding etc with motor jacked up high....this is where good shallow water props prove themselves as you get on and off the throttle. It kind of a slide and point exercise. keeping the boat up as your prop loses and gains grip while turning at 10-12mph....just learning how not to overrun and dump your tunnel. interested to see how that tunnel design does with that HP and with the dynamics of the hull. really cool build.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Thanks,

I think I got a taste of what your talking about on one tight turn I made, if I had more experience the 70 might be okay but I regret not having more hp so I could have more prop options, could use the weight anyway.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

hhhmmm....a lot of very shallow running guys are rigging out with less horsepower. Me included. On the boat i posted a pic of earlier I went from a 70 to a 90...if i had it to do again i would go the other way to a 60. Boat like yours and mine will never be fast. I will give up a few mph for the lighter weight and less draft. My boat now drafts 7.5" with two people and full 40 gallon fuel. Will get up from sitting on the bottom not floating and run in 3". It took a lot of work and testing to get the weight placement right with lithium batts as far forward as possible and fuel tank pushed as far forward under the console as possible. I put one of those measurement stickers on my transom so i could test and retest. Also almost no aluminum or extra stuff. Coolers built into the front deck lightweight etc. Most everything minimized. Stayed with the lightest 4 cylinder on purpose and even Bobs Lightweight jackplate with pump mounted under console (only rated at 115hp). Even 2cycle oil reservoir mounted under console. etc....I wouldnt put much stock in 90hp over 70hp. I gained some hole shot but lost too much draft in my old boat when i did that. When up and running i didnt gain any speed ... none.... and i especially wouldnt be looking to add any weight. Old Man Haynie that designed this boat never put more than 115hp on them. It is 20.5' long and plenty wide. Hope some of that helps. Super extreme shallow is just that and takes full commit. As you can see my boat sits super flat on the water and compare the scupper holes while floating vs on the trailer.

Then again if not going for super extreme shallow then im talking on the wrong path.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

beautiful boat, yeah she looks well balanced! 

I don't think I will get mine in 3 inches, the skeg hangs down 5 inches below the bottom of boat when it's jacked all the way up and I doubt I will be able to trim up much at that height.

I'v got an idea of what I need to do next with moving weight around. Also I think I need to extend sponsons closer to tunnel to keep the stream from falling off which it does at lower speed and I know I need to move the console backwards but I am going to put it on a rail so I can slide it back and forward.

Unfortunately I need to add weight, the hull is only around 800 pounds and that tunnel pressure seems to be directly tied to how much weight I have in the boat. Good news is with 4 people on board, I don't see any draft difference once I am up and running, still have to run her to learn more what is going on.

Thanks for the advice!!


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

My hull is only 1060 pounds (although bigger as well). With your motor that low it is still blowing out? When jacked up my skeg is level with bottom of the hull.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

We are missing something here. My motor at my lowest height would be at same height as yours at your highest height. You should have plenty of water. Most of the time only 1/2 to 1/3 of my prop is even in the water and it stays hooked.


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## Jerry-rigged (May 21, 2004)

Sgrem - What model Haynie is that? Looks nice!


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

sgrem said:


> When jacked up my skeg is level with bottom of the hull.


That's a beautiful thing )) .. how much do you draft on plane? Which prop?

If my skeg were level with my hull on plane i would be running in 1.5 inches of water, the depth of my strakes, lol!!, that would be fantastic!! It won't happen with this boat I don't think )

Last weekend there was no inclination to blow out with the cav plate and extra weight. We didn't do much scientific testing, just went fishing, water was rough and I kept her 3 inches up and trimmed even so the cav plate wouldn't be dragging. That was in 2 and 3 footers, I would have left her down but the plate creates a lot of drag if you are down below the tunnel and my cav plate jacked down is like 1.5 inches below the 6 inch high tunnel.

If water is flatter this weekend I will see how she does at full height though I'm not expecting anything new, weight is what seems to work best so far.

I don't have to run as shallow as you guys in Texas, but when I do I often have to deal with rock bottom and when tide is out some of the flats I cross are from 8 inches to 1 inch.

I am going to pole out at low tide this weekend with a yard stick to see if I can find the best path through the humps.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

sgrem said:


> We are missing something here. My motor at my lowest height would be at same height as yours at your highest height. You should have plenty of water. Most of the time only 1/2 to 1/3 of my prop is even in the water and it stays hooked.


I need a better prop then ...


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Jerry-rigged said:


> Sgrem - What model Haynie is that? Looks nice!


That is an old school 1999 Haynie Flats 20 that I spent 4 months rebuilding at South Texas Boatworks with George in Pearland. George is a level 5 wizard and made all my impossible napkin designs possible. Everything on that boat is hand fit and hand made by me or George. I did all the rigging etc. Only boat on the water with no coolers to steal and almost no aluminum. Has a 48 qt cooler (for beer) and a 95 qt cooler (for fish) built into front deck. Large hump behind console acts as leaning post/full tournament livewell/rear casting platform and seats three across. We bass fish a lot also so designed it as a double duty.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

jorgepease said:


> That's a beautiful thing )) .. how much do you draft on plane? Which prop?


Jack Foreman prop.
Draft on plane is 0" in soft mud....3-4" hard sand.

That 5" rise static jack plate would get your skeg up to level. My old boat pic in post #14 has that plate. Non adjustable. That boat ran at that height always. You will have to drill another hole in your transom if you decide to use that just a heads up.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Here is another thought on weight. You are adding weight to get the boat to collect water in the tunnel to fill all that you have....If you have some tunnel out of the water then alllllll of that is wasted efficiency of your hull and unusable. you lose buoyancy and your boat cant fill it or use it. 

Start by getting your skeg to level with bottom of boat and filling in that wasted area to the level your boat can use....instead of weighing boat down to fill the tunnel....um....just fill the tunnel to the level of your lightweight boat. Get your boat to sit level in the water at rest then fill the tunnel to at least that water line or even where the water is an inch or so above the top of your tunnel at rest.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

sgrem said:


> Here is another thought on weight. You are adding weight to get the boat to collect water in the tunnel to fill all that you have....If you have some tunnel out of the water then alllllll of that is wasted efficiency of your hull and unusable. you lose buoyancy and your boat cant fill it or use it.
> 
> Start by getting your skeg to level with bottom of boat and filling in that wasted area to the level your boat can use....instead of weighing boat down to fill the tunnel....um....just fill the tunnel to the level of your lightweight boat. Get your boat to sit level in the water at rest then fill the tunnel to at least that water line or even where the water is an inch or so above the top of your tunnel at rest.


There is a little bit of rocker in my hull, it's gradual starting about 6' forward of the transom. I believe my center of gravity is a bit too far forward. Adding a couple of tool boxes filled with 7 gallons of water each toward the back and just me driving gave me the best performance as far as quick to respond and turning so my plan is to shift the console back. In the meantime I ask people to sit in the back which has worked well.

If your prop stays hooked that far out of the water then I have a prop problem, Im going to lunch and hope to give Foreman a call. I think I need something like a 4 blade 12.75 x 13.5 or something crazy like that.

This motor really limits my options. I was only considering boat weight not wetted surface when I picked the 70. I think you made the right choice going with more power because it's not the speed but the ability to spin a bigger prop


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Actually my etec 130 spins the same size prop as my buddies etec 60. same diameter...same pitch....similar blade geometry. Im only turning a 13.25" diameter by 14 pitch.....He is pushing a 16ft scooter....me a 20.5ft flats boat. (which means you are running same size prop as me now as well - me etec 130 you Yamahammer 70 - essentially same size prop) I was turning a 14" by 17 pitch in the 90 above....so with this larger boat i went way smaller on prop even with much larger motor....Its not the motor bro. until you get the prop right nothing else will be.

Even when i am running shallow my girlfriend is usually up towards the front of the boat.....shifting weight forward....other than my motor/jack plate there is zero added weight behind me when i am at the console. ZERO...Only life jackets in the boxes to the rear. (bass fishing with the livewell full is a different story) If you want it to run shallow you need as much of the hull level in the water as possible...

In fact i cant even trim my motor. I even have wedges and negative rake in my transom...my motor runs fully tucked under always. When i start to trim past a touch it starts porpoising. Flats boats like to run flat. You try to make it do something else and you get goofy effects. I still say no extra weight and send it forward if you can. Gulf Coast boats (poplular manufacturer here) are infamous for their boats having their consoles way way forward. Most of the 21 ft cat manufacturers offer to have console mounted way forward as well for same reason. They mount them forward for guys running shallow down south and they mount them further back for guys that want more speed.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

sgrem said:


> Actually my etec 130 spins the same size prop as my buddies etec 60. same diameter...same pitch....similar blade geometry. Im only turning a 13.25" diameter by 14 pitch.....He is pushing a 16ft scooter....me a 20.5ft flats boat. (which means you are running same size prop as me now as well - me etec 130 you Yamahammer 70 - essentially same size prop) I was turning a 14" by 17 pitch in the 90 above....so with this larger boat i went way smaller on prop even with much larger motor....Its not the motor bro. until you get the prop right nothing else will be.
> 
> Even when i am running shallow my girlfriend is usually up towards the front of the boat.....shifting weight forward....other than my motor/jack plate there is zero added weight behind me when i am at the console. ZERO...Only life jackets in the boxes to the rear. (bass fishing with the livewell full is a different story) If you want it to run shallow you need as much of the hull level in the water as possible...
> 
> In fact i cant even trim my motor. I even have wedges and negative rake in my transom...my motor runs fully tucked under always. When i start to trim past a touch it starts porpoising. Flats boats like to run flat. You try to make it do something else and you get goofy effects. I still say no extra weight and send it forward if you can. Gulf Coast boats (poplular manufacturer here) are infamous for their boats having their consoles way way forward. Most of the 21 ft cat manufacturers offer to have console mounted way forward as well for same reason. They mount them forward for guys running shallow down south and they mount them further back for guys that want more speed.


I figured you would be running more prop than that. Interesting! There is hope for me yet ))

I understand what your saying about moving the weight forward, my carolina skiff 17 DLX with a 75 was like that and she could be made to porpoise a bit of trim. I would do the same thing get people up front but trim up as I had no jack plate, that was all I could do to run across shallow water. Anything less than a foot was risky though, I blew through a lot of aluminum props.

But this boat is a different animal. It's part to do with the rocker and center of gravity I am sure, if I put weight forward the stern gets loose, feels dangerous.

When I bought the plans they were for stitch and glue construction and I needed to know the dimensions for all the stations so I could build the tool for a foam core vacuum infusion.

The designer didn't have those and wanted too much money, for my budget, to draw them, so I redrew the entire boat myself, did my own scantlings, designed my own tunnel and sponsons etc ... this is one strange boat.

That said I am relieved and can't find too much fault in her after last weekend, she runs so darn smooth and dry, not as fast WOT as my DLX 17 but in waves and chop I can run faster and smoother so I guess it works out.

I will try this weekend with the motor all the way up and prop tucked to see how she behaves, that might be just the trick for running shallow and slow just staying on plane!

Thanks for the input!!!


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

stay with it....its a million little tweeks and you can maximize with what you are capable of. Good luck.


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## Chunkn' Charlie (Dec 30, 2004)

Jorge,

I know this will sound SILLY, but i am still hung up on the top of the tunnel being over the water line.

Bare with me. This is only temporary, but what if you "temporarily" filled in the tunnel with foam so it matched the top of the water line. Make a mold out of two part foam and hold it in with duck tape.

Now I know this sounds stupid but I think all of your cavitation problems are from your tunnel sucking in air from the top of the tunnel. If you put in the "tunnel plug" in and your props quit blowing out, well.... It would surely last for 3 or 4 aggressive hole shots.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

I would even put the top of the tunnel an an inch or so below water line... You lose nothing you gain everything.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

I think you guys are partially right but I think there is more going on than just that.

I attached a drawing of the hull shape â€¦ that rocker with my COG too far forward is causing the boat to tip forward when pushed from behind. It lets that tunnel tip up and gives me more wetted surface up front, a double whammy.

I need to fix that tipping first by balancing the boat out and I don't need to add weight to do it, I just need to shift the existing weight back on to the planing area.

The planing area is about 35 sq feet which comes to a loading of about 34 lbs per sq foot, which is nothing, so it's not like I will be burying the transom at all.

Anyway after almost 2 years building this thing I can't stand the thought of unrigging her and doing more construction! LOL ))


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Unless your boat will do about 50mph i still dont think that will has as much affect as you are accrediting....The tunnel height however I know for sure will at the useful speeds of 12-25mph. If you are shooting for high speeds well....then yes i agree with you except you built the wrong boat for that lol....

The two fixes discussed (moving weight rearward/filling in the top of the tunnel) will have the same affect you are after to hook up your prop. But moving weight back will have the negative effect of costing you draft. Filling in the top few inches of tunnel has no negative....this style of tunnel hull flats boat is super common here. 100% of them have the top of the tunnel below the water line. Just an observation to help.

So think about your rocker affect. Fill the tunnel some and change the angle that river of water will exit to benefit that rocker effect and you will increase stability/buoyancy all the way around.

Dead horse...i will stop whacking now.... I think we have covered most of the tweeks with your current setup. 

When is your next tweak and test?


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

This weekend I am going to try some slow speed running tucking the motor like you said. 

I called Jack Foreman yesterday and left a message, I want to hear what he says about my prop. 

Can't start any serious modifications till I find a new work space, my house in the keys rents as a vacation rental from January to May so I will bring the boat down to Miami to the metal guy and get a leaning post and grab rails and a few other things put in.

Mostly going to run her and see if I learn anything new


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Im not in as bad shape as I thought, with the jackplate up 6" my skeg is only 3" below bottom of the boat... I don't know why I thought the skeg was another 3 inches lower than the prop.

So I took her out to see how she would perform running slow. I could keep her at 15 mph before falling off plane. That is with the jackplate at 6" and motor tucked almost all the way down 25% mark. I think it would be easier without the wind and chop but I could probably benefit from tabs.

Here is a video running slow ... the mud trail is not mine ))






Also finally got hold of Baumanns, we talked about mods to the SCD 13x14, they are going to put enough cup to reduce rpm by 300, they feel that should be perfect.

Each time I drive the boat I get a better feel for her, I think 50% of the problem was that, just need to get used to her. Thanks!!


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Good update


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

I got a little video of hole shot, it's pretty mellow dramatic, it's my first view of the boat from this perspective and looks like my bow is a bit high. I have one person up front about 150 lbs and in the tool box behind console I have about 80lbs. I did not give it full throttle


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

I give up on the Yamaha F70 for this boat. I had some cup added by LB to the latest prop and tried it out today, At first I thought I finally had what I needed, boat ran great, no blowout in the turns or starting off, I could jack her all the way up and even trim her level. 

Then later took my neighbors out for a spin and the extra weight was too much for the prop, it started to spin again. I need a bigger prop and that lugs the motor so Im selling this motor, 2014 Yamaha F70. I'l take a $1000 hit on it and throw in the extended warranty, motor cover and 2 about $400 props. I'v got the motor at my house in Florida Keys.

I know most of you are from Texas but just spreading the word. Going to switch to a 90!


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## spooksupeRipple (Feb 28, 2015)

Yamaha 90hp 3cyl 4stroke = 366lbs
Etec 90hp 3cyl 2 stroke = 320lbs
Etec 115 v4 2 stroke = 390lbs

Nice boat man! Boat looks like it does alright with 70 yama. If you want power chunk that 4 stroke and get an etec. A 90hp 2 stroke is equivalant to 130hp 4 stroke in performance. I think a 115 etec is cheaper than a 90 yama 4 stroke. For 30 more pounds than a 90 Yama 4 stroke your getting a 115 etec which has the equivalant power of a Yama 4 stroke 150 hp. A 115 etec will make that boat fly. My .02


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

You actually got me to thinking, the new Yamaha 115 is also super light but the Etec sounds interesting as well.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

So I dropped the boat off at the dealer and should have a new Yamaha F115 by next weekend. Any recommendations on prop. I tried calling Jack Foreman and phone said out of order, going to try to call again tomorrow. 

Also called LB and they preferred to have some numbers to work from. They told me to try my old props .. those are already spinning around 5900-6000 on the old F70 so can't see how that will help, they are sure to hit the rev limiter on a motor with double the displacement ))

Is anybody running one of these on their tunnel boat. What prop and rpms are you getting

Thanks


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## theyallbreak (Jan 29, 2012)

I ran a 13.5 dia our 13.25(can't remember) 15p 4 blade with some cupping added to the tip and trailing edge. do not remember the make. I also ran a 13.25 17p 3 blade (stock prop) with double cupping. I ran these on my majek rfl with a 02 yamaha 115 2 stroke until I switched my setup. if you were not so far away I would let you try these.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Mine is 13.5" x 15 pitch Jack Foreman three blade on my double tunnel hull Haynie 20 Flats with 130 etec.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Ok thanks, 15 pitch seems to be about the zone. 

I found a very similar hull Alumacraft 20, new Yamaha F115 with 4" jackplate and sponsons running the PTR 4 blade 13.5 x 15 and he was getting 5900 rpm 38mph with good hole shot and just a little slip in turns.

If I understand correctly my old Turbo1 3 blade 13.25 x 13 should spin around 
+200 rpm - 4 blade to 3 blade
+400 rpm - 15 pitch to 13 pitch

so 5900 + 600 = 6500 rpm

The new 115's are spec'd to 6300 rpm so I will ask Bauman to add around 300 rpm of cupping to The Turbo1 and go from there. 

I'l post final results when I get the it all in.


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## duecew (Apr 23, 2013)

Sorry, I may be late to the conversation and did not read all the post. I am a custom aluminum boat builder and was wondering what your tunnel looks like leaving the bottom of the hull? It needs to come straight off the bottom and have an continuous angle from bottom of hull to top of tunnel at transom. If this is built wrong you will get air in the tunnel causing the prop to grab and release until it gets constant water flow no matter where the motor sits.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

duecew said:


> Sorry, I may be late to the conversation and did not read all the post. I am a custom aluminum boat builder and was wondering what your tunnel looks like leaving the bottom of the hull? It needs to come straight off the bottom and have an continuous angle from bottom of hull to top of tunnel at transom. If this is built wrong you will get air in the tunnel causing the prop to grab and release until it gets constant water flow no matter where the motor sits.


Hi, it's more like an S curve than a straight line with a gradual downturn and narrowing toward the transom to compress the water.

However as I have become more used to this boat, I don't think it's the tunnel as much as the prop. When I am running and jacked all the way up my skeg is only 2.75 inches under boat and the boat is at 0" and that is with a non-extreme, normal prop, Turbo1.

The F70 couldn't run an extreme flats prop with that long 22' boat, it would dog the motor completely. I could go smaller diameter but then the prop is going to slip anyway.

The F115 is double the displacement and weighs about 130lbs more (I used to add 100lbs water ballast when by myself) so this should work out perfect for my hull ))

I have high hopes for the boat because a few weeks ago I took a wrong turn (still no gps) and ended up running across a rock shelf for about 100 yards.

There was complete silence until I was able to make a gradual U turn off of it and then everyone whooped. LOL

Had to be at least 3" deep because the skeg had no scratches but that 3" looked like an inch, there were even patches of exposed rock.

I also noticed the boat seemed to run super smooth over that super skinny water, like I was getting even better compression!! Felt like Ice


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## duecew (Apr 23, 2013)

Over skinny water the water is being displaced and lifting the boat. You probably noticed the boat flatten out when you first hit the shallow water. With what you described above (the s curve and the tunnel get smaller towards the transom to funnel water?) its your tunnel. When you get back on the water and the motor has not fixed the problem, try hitting another boats wake and ridding the swell. You may notice the motor perform correctly when you hit the proper depth where the prop grabs. May be in the swell or on top of the wake. 

I tried a wedge design and a reduced tunnel on a boat recently and had similar problems. The motor seemed to bog down and jump around a lot. Played with motor height and prop and no luck. Cut wedge off and installed straight tunnel (from bottom of hull to transom) and problem solved. Look at Copano Shallow Draft Boats and you will see the boat.

What is dry weight on the hull?


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## duecew (Apr 23, 2013)

You have air in your tunnel. Notice the first video where the motor is bouncing. The prop is grabbing and releasing from the air the water that the tunnel is producing. In the second video you can see all the white water coming out of the tunnel caused by air. 

Just my opinion from experience.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

duecew said:


> You have air in your tunnel. Notice the first video where the motor is bouncing. The prop is grabbing and releasing from the air the water that the tunnel is producing. In the second video you can see all the white water coming out of the tunnel caused by air.
> 
> Just my opinion from experience.


Hi Duecew,

Yeah, I'v seen the turbulence, just didn't think you could have a tunnel with no turbulence. Those videos were shot in pretty choppy water too, don't know if that makes a difference.

Can you point me to any videos that show a tunnel with clear water, would love to see that so I have something to compare against.

Dry weight is about 800lbs. My brain is agreeing with you, I believe a gradual slope up to transom is much less turbulent, if anything the sides could compress to compact the water but on this boat, I hope a really cupped prop can make me happy as I don't have the time to keep working on the boat.

Il google what you mentioned, thanks


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

*water pressure on the 115*

Took the boat out with the new 115 and a cheap aluminum k-19 prop that Yamaha put on, completed the two hour part of the break in and noticed I wasn't getting any water pressure readings but she was ******* fine and no alarms so I just kept on going figuring the pressure kit was installed wrong.

This morning I decided to take her out again before going back to the dealer and I ran the rpms up and the water pressure nudged up one notch so it's working but very low water pressure compared to the F70. This is with motor all the way down.

When I jack her up 2-3 inches I have to keep the revs above 4000 for the pressure gauge to register at the first indicator, 10lbs I think. I may end up needing a low water pickup to jack her up any further. Anybody heard of or experienced low water pressure readings with the new F115?

It happens even with the motor all the way down and inlets buried.


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## jorgepease (Apr 14, 2011)

Never mind, I pulled the cowling and traced the water pressure hose ... not to a sender in the block, like it should be, but to the speedsensor pickup tube!!! 

Now I am worried about the rest of their work!!!!!!!!!!


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