# Calling you out UFgatorHARV!!!!



## Gator gar

I've been going round and round, discussing thermocline and it's affect on catfish in deep water with UFgatorHARV in the past. I admitted I jumped on the bandwagon with the rest of the folks, saying it kills the fish down deep. Really not knowing for myself, cause I never had actually pulled a dead one up from the deep in the hot summer.

Well, I pulled up 60 plus pounds of them from the deep today and they were all DEAD. How's that for a first time Thermocline experiment??? I fished in 32 feet of water. All hooks were 10 feet down and deeper. I let them soak for a total of 9 hours maximum. I think I had 6 fish that were floaters that were alive, but barely, with their gills moving.

So, UFgatorHARV, here are my results. I think I will cancel my trip with you and Piper to discuss this further. I think I have had enough of this thermocline, first hand. 

You ask, why everyone elses fish die on the line and yours don't, no matter how hot it gets?? I can't explain it. Maybe the good Lord watches out for your fish and your fish only. Speaking of the Good Lord, I hope he forgives me for listening to you and in turn, letting all my fish die on the line. Knowing in my gut, that all the others that jugged ahead of me in the past couldn't be wrong in their conclusions, that contradicted yours.

Oh well, now I know and I want others to know. If you anchor a jug in deep water in the hot part of the summer and leave them out all night. You are going to have some dead fish on the line when you return the next morning. I don't care what anyone says.

Look at the hook placement in their mouths. None!! I repeat, NONE, were foul hooked. No gut hook, no nothing. Just good circle hook placement in their mouths. So we rule that theory out don't we?? 

UFgatorHARV, you had me going, I have to give you that. I know you run a jugging guide service on the side and you have to promote it. But you better stay on Conroe where the fish don't supposedly die in the hottest months of the summer. Cause Lake Livingston is a whole different ball game. 

Do a search here on 2cool and you can see our discusions on thermocline and it's effects. Scroll down and I will show you first hand what it will do to your fish, I don't care what anyone says, here is the proof.


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## RAYSOR

I agree with you GG, when we jug around the house and leave them out most are dead, so we have stopped jugging in the hotter months, unless we are out there with them.


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## shadslinger

Them is dead catfish!


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## Doubleover

Quit fishing and you wont have to worry about killing any no matter how hot or cold!!


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## Gator gar

Doubleover said:


> Quit fishing and you wont have to worry about killing any no matter how hot or cold!!


Quit doing drugs and you won't be telling me to quit fishing, you nut. It's not the killing that bothers me, it is the wasting. Quit fishing????? Man have you lost your mind???? Do you know who you are talking to???? I fish almost everyday. That's why I have a commercial fishing license and a recreational license. They allow me to FISH!!!!


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## Gator gar

shadslinger said:


> Them is dead catfish!


Still think there might be a niche for jug linning in the summer?????


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## Doubleover

So what did you use for bait? I would like to go jug linning tomorrow!!


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## aFishinigo

*Sorry for your loss gg but thanks*

Man i hate to see that but i sure do appreciate you taking the time to prove a point.


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## Gator gar

Doubleover said:


> So what did you use for bait? I would like to go jug linning tomorrow!!


You know, I look at your age and a name like Doubleover and I want to run with it. Kind of like a Metro-Sexual feeling to that name you have there. The best thing you can do is stay out of this conversation, before I embarass you.

Let the real fishermen talk and you take a hike.


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## Sunbeam

GG read my thread on "Livingston at dawn" posted today. My blues in 19 ft were all dead in 3 hours.

PS there has been some good sized gizzard shad on the north side of the big bridge out toward the end of the levee. Just be prepared to dig some big carp out of the net.


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## Gator gar

Sunbeam said:


> GG read my thread on "Livingston at dawn" posted today. My blues in 19 ft were all dead in 3 hours.
> 
> PS there has been some good sized gizzard shad on the north side of the big bridge out toward the end of the levee. Just be prepared to dig some big carp out of the net.


That is exactly where we go to get our carp and our cutters (Gizzard Shad) Well, one of the places anyway. My buddy make big bait runs up there and catches 100s of pounds of shad up there at a time. They are not up there like they were. Before you could throw your 7 foot net and it might sink a foot or two and it was full. You couldn't get it in the boat by yourself.


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## obiewan57

Sorry for the loss there Gator, but I had it happen to me years agoa nd I learned my lesson. Of course I also learned it is a lot more fun with the fish on the rod than on the jug, unless you are hungry or just want a big un. Takes patience to get that big one without a jug or trotline. But point being as you proved certain times of the year you can do more damage than good, in some lakes lakes at least. That is a five star topic you got there.


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## UFgatorHarv

Well, as I said many times in previous posts, I have never fished Livingston. Those are certainly hard results to argue w/, but I am still standing by what I said earlier. That has never happened to me at Conroe before, and until it does, I am not going to change a thing.

I am about 75% a go for the Masonic tournament, just waiting to hear from a friend if he can make it. If we fish it, we are gonna leave the jugs out all night till the next morning. We'll see what happens.

Another point, I wouldn't really consider posting some pictures on the internet and backing out of a trip "calling someone out." I haven't heard back from piper yet, but I will still take that trip if he wants to, and my other wager still stands.


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## Gator gar

UFgatorHarv said:


> Well, as I said many times in previous posts, I have never fished Livingston. Those are certainly hard results to argue w/, but I am still standing by what I said earlier. That has never happened to me at Conroe before, and until it does, I am not going to change a thing.
> 
> I am about 75% a go for the Masonic tournament, just waiting to hear from a friend if he can make it. If we fish it, we are gonna leave the jugs out all night till the next morning. We'll see what happens.
> 
> Another point, I wouldn't really consider posting some pictures on the internet and backing out of a trip "calling someone out." I haven't heard back from piper yet, but I will still take that trip if he wants to, and my other wager still stands.


Ya'll have at it. I'm a 100 percent no go at the Conroe Masonic tournament. My mind is made up, just as your is. To each his own.
I catch pretty close to a 50 fish limit everyday that I fish on Lake Livingston and have never lost a fish this year, until I anchored these jugs last night.

I saw a whole trotline full of fish last night, that had been on there all day, 7 feet below the surface and when he pulled them off this morning, after 24 hours, one of them was dead. That tells me, that they can stand some heat, but have to be where the oxygen is.

I have also had tried and true professional jug fishermen on Conroe, tell me it is the same there, as in Lake Houston etc. How you keep dodging it is beyond me. Good luck on your tournament, I'm done killing and wasting fish.


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## shadslinger

I am rethinking that idea Gator Gar(big time after this post), and going back to baited holes and R&R to go with a night time white bass trip. Hang with me a little while as I am a resourceful person.
BTW, I was wondering if your better half could set me up to take credit cards?
Didn't I tell you some folks are,...?
SS


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## Gator gar

shadslinger said:


> I am rethinking that idea Gator Gar(big time after this post), and going back to baited holes and R&R to go with a night time white bass trip. Hang with me a little while as I am a resourceful person.
> BTW, I was wondering if your better half could set me up to take credit cards?
> Didn't I tell you some folks are,...?
> SS


Yes you did and yes my wife can give you all the info you need and let you decide if you want to get set up to process credit cards. They are in Florida right now, doing the Disney thing and won't be back til Friday. She even has mobile units that can be carried with you wherever you go.


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## dbullard

I hate that you had that happen gg.I too have seen it first hand on Lake Buchanan this week. We went out with a guide and he had baited out over night and when we ran them fish over 20 ft were dead yes ufgator dead.All fish under 20 ft were alive. We ran them 2 hours later and guess what dead fish dead dead dead!I have had to many well respected fisherman with more than 4 years experience have fish die.I am with my buddy gg on this subject .You have stated that you seldom fish over 20 ft maybe that is the trick.I can't wait to see the results of your trip with Piper.


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## dpiper

UFgatorHarv,

I'm available almost any Friday or Saturday night now. I too experimented this Friday and Saturday night. We put jugs out in the mouth of Atkins Creek in 18 to 35 feet of water. We continually ran them except for a couple occasions each night when will went on a shad runs. Both nights we lost three or four. All dead fish except one was on the bottom two hooks and the one exception was on the third hook. All fish but one was hooked in the side of the mouth and the other was whisker hooked. During the shad run the jugs could not have soaked more than an hour and a half. 

Let me know when you want to go. But first I need to drain one of my tubes. It has taken on a lot of water due to a submarining issue over the weekend.

GG you can still come along if you think you can hang. Who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised when we get back to the marina.


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## UFgatorHarv

dbullard said:


> I hate that you had that happen gg.I too have seen it first hand on Lake Buchanan this week. We went out with a guide and he had baited out over night and when we ran them fish over 20 ft were dead yes ufgator dead.All fish under 20 ft were alive. We ran them 2 hours later and guess what dead fish dead dead dead!I have had to many well respected fisherman with more than 4 years experience have fish die.I am with my buddy gg on this subject .You have stated that you seldom fish over 20 ft maybe that is the trick.I can't wait to see the results of your trip with Piper.


Try saying dead one more time; I didn't quite get your point. I am going to attempt to say this one more time, and then I give up because most of you are apparently either illiterate, only hear what you want to, or are four different kinds of stupid.

1) Everytime I get into a thermocline arguement w/ someone on a message board, it is because someone else has brought it up and accused me of either being ignorant or flat out killing fish. This time, on this board, it was RandyRandy. I never bring this up guys. I never try to tell any of you how to fish, unless you solicit advice; however, when someone brings it up and insinuates that I don't know what I am doing, I will defend myself. My only point was that I don't kill fish due to a thermocline, and until I do, you can't tell me that I do or will.

2) As I have said numerous times: I rarely jug deeper than 25 ft, although I have gone deeper without bad results on occasion. I have never fished, skiied, swam, or even urinated in Lake Livingston. My experiences w/ thermoclines pertain to only Lake Conroe and Lake Somerville.

3) Maybe if I get different results than everyone else, you should come out with me and try it my way before you condem me as a fish killer. Some of you are like women. They ask you for advice; you tell them how to do it; they completely disregard your way and do it theirs; then they blame you for bad results.

Here's a nice little link from GatorGar himself on another board espousing the ease of leaving jugs out all night: http://www.fishingtx.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148846&postcount=6 That was less than a month ago at about the same time he was here telling everyone that any fish left over 30 minutes is a dead fish w/ out doubt. He also knew at that time, that the tournament was being held July 10th in the dead heat of summer. Then he admitted he'd never actually seen a dead fish from a thermocline. Then he ran an experiment claiming 12 dead fish... at least there were 12 in the picture that I counted. Then in the same thread, he says that in actuality, six of them were still alive "but looked dead." All that in about a month. What a friggin' joke. Meanwhile, Harv's been preaching the same **** thing day in, day out with no change. Then in this thread, he threatens to "embarass" someone. I don't even know what the hell that was supposed to mean.

Furthermore, GatorGar... the word is EFFECT, and it is _its effect, _not_ it's affect. _The thermocline has _an effect _on fish. Fish can _be_ _affected _by a thermocline. One is a noun, the other is a verb. "It's" is a conjuction meaning "it is." "Its" is possesive. If you want to "call people out" and "embarass" others, you might want to master the English language first. You also might want to look into run on sentences and proper pairing of commas with conjuctions too.

For some of the rest of you... I know everyone has typos etc., but some of you so routinely butcher the written word that it is plainly no accident. While I try to figure out how some of you earned high school diplomas, you could help the rest of us out by looking into into the following words and their usage. Any 6th or 7th grade grammar textbook should suffice.

their, there, they're
your, you're
a lot
its, it's
affect, effect
lay, lie
to, too
here, hear
than, then
I saw, I _have_ seen
commits, commence
accept, except
you all = Y'all not ya'll
comma splices, compound sentences, and semi-colon usage
when typing, there are two spaces after a period, and one between words and after commas and semi-colons

I will not discuss this topic any further. I am going to do this trip with piper, and we shall see how it goes. I still maintain that for it to be a true test, we need to do several his way and several my way. Then we can compare the differences if any. He seems like the only one of you willing to even fish with me and give it a go, and I commend him for it. For the rest of you, I am not going to even waste my time anymore. My wager is off the table. You've all had **** near a month to let your asses cash some of the checks your mouths have been writing, and not one of you besides piper has done so. Hope to see some of you at Scott's Ridge on the 10th.

Harv's out of this topic; flame away.


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## atcfisherman

Maybe 9 hours is too long for the summer time. I usually check my noodle jugs every 2-3 hours at the most in the summers to prevent the fish from dying.


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## Gator gar

UFgatorHarv said:


> Try saying dead one more time; I didn't quite get your point. I am going to attempt to say this one more time, and then I give up because most of you are apparently either illiterate, only hear what you want to, or are four different kinds of stupid.
> 
> 1) Everytime I get into a thermocline arguement w/ someone on a message board, it is because someone else has brought it up and accused me of either being ignorant or flat out killing fish. This time, on this board, it was RandyRandy. I never bring this up guys. I never try to tell any of you how to fish, unless you solicit advice; however, when someone brings it up and insinuates that I don't know what I am doing, I will defend myself. My only point was that I don't kill fish due to a thermocline, and until I do, you can't tell me that I do or will.
> 
> 2) As I have said numerous times: I rarely jug deeper than 25 ft, although I have gone deeper without bad results on occasion. I have never fished, skiied, swam, or even urinated in Lake Livingston. My experiences w/ thermoclines pertain to only Lake Conroe and Lake Somerville.
> 
> 3) Maybe if I get different results than everyone else, you should come out with me and try it my way before you condem me as a fish killer. Some of you are like women. They ask you for advice; you tell them how to do it; they completely disregard your way and do it theirs; then they blame you for bad results.
> 
> Here's a nice little link from GatorGar himself on another board espousing the ease of leaving jugs out all night: http://www.fishingtx.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148846&postcount=6 That was less than a month ago at about the same time he was here telling everyone that any fish left over 30 minutes is a dead fish w/ out doubt. He also knew at that time, that the tournament was being held July 10th in the dead heat of summer. Then he admitted he'd never actually seen a dead fish from a thermocline. Then he ran an experiment claiming 12 dead fish... at least there were 12 in the picture that I counted. Then in the same thread, he says that in actuality, six of them were still alive "but looked dead." All that in about a month. What a friggin' joke. Meanwhile, Harv's been preaching the same **** thing day in, day out with no change. Then in this thread, he threatens to "embarass" someone. I don't even know what the hell that was supposed to mean.
> 
> Furthermore, GatorGar... the word is EFFECT, and it is _its effect, _not_ it's affect. _The thermocline has _an effect _on fish. Fish can _be_ _affected _by a thermocline. One is a noun, the other is a verb. "It's" is a conjuction meaning "it is." "Its" is possesive. If you want to "call people out" and "embarass" others, you might want to master the English language first. You also might want to look into run on sentences and proper pairing of commas with conjuctions too.
> 
> For some of the rest of you... I know everyone has typos etc., but some of you so routinely butcher the written word that it is plainly no accident. While I try to figure out how some of you earned high school diplomas, you could help the rest of us out by looking into into the following words and their usage. Any 6th or 7th grade grammar textbook should suffice.
> 
> their, there, they're
> your, you're
> a lot
> its, it's
> affect, effect
> lay, lie
> to, too
> here, hear
> than, then
> I saw, I _have_ seen
> commits, commence
> accept, except
> you all = Y'all not ya'll
> comma splices, compound sentences, and semi-colon usage
> when typing, there are two spaces after a period, and one between words and after commas and semi-colons
> 
> I will not discuss this topic any further. I am going to do this trip with piper, and we shall see how it goes. I still maintain that for it to be a true test, we need to do several his way and several my way. Then we can compare the differences if any. He seems like the only one of you willing to even fish with me and give it a go, and I commend him for it. For the rest of you, I am not going to even waste my time anymore. My wager is off the table. You've all had **** near a month to let your asses cash some of the checks your mouths have been writing, and not one of you besides piper has done so. Hope to see some of you at Scott's Ridge on the 10th.
> 
> Harv's out of this topic; flame away.


Well, the grammar police came out of you on that one didn't it??? We're all thinking to ourselves, man, I'd hate to be his wife or girlfriend. Heck, I wouldn't even want to fish with this guy if he is that technical. But, after evaluating everything you said, over the Thermocline threads, I think I know how you beat getting hit with dead fish.

First off, you said you have a deckhand that helps you. Who knows who else is lingering in the background that we don't know about. I figure, you go catch you a good mess of catfish a day or two before hand and put them in a live tank with an aerator. You stratigically place your jugs out there somewhere and then disappear and go wine and dine your clients at the fine eating establishments on the lake that you keep talking about.

Everyone is happy and nods off to sleep at the hotel, to later meet up at the lake with great anticipation of the next days catch. Well, an hour or so before the party arrives, said deckhand is out there hanging some nice frisky fish that just came out of the tank, on the jugs, that you have marked on the GPS almost guaranteeing you no dead fish on the line and everyone is happy as can be when they are pulling them nice fresh cats in.

Then you come on here bragging about how the thermocline doesn't (is that effect or affect) well, it doesn't matter, it just doesn't happen to you, with the dead fish. So you want to make a wager. Well, I have a nice aerator and a live tank and I bet you, that you can come to Lake Livingston and I can set jugs out this week-end and bet you $9,999.00 that there won't be a dead fish on my jugs the next morning either.

Who knows what goes on when you take your eyes off someone, especially if they are trying to run a successful business. Heck, they shoot deer in a pen. Why not hang some fresh cats on the line for some clients a hour before they arrive and you look like the hero.

I don't blame you for taking your wager off the table. You have probably ran off your good deckhand for not speaking proper english and don't have anyone to hang fish on the jugs. Plus as hot as it is, you know that Thermocline will get you.

Feel free to grade this paper for grammar and punctuation too, if you like. You're no longer my fishing friend.

Those six fish I was talking about, were in addition to the dead ones that I had. I caught a 6 more than was in the pic.


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## Gator gar

atcfisherman said:


> Maybe 9 hours is too long for the summer time. I usually check my noodle jugs every 2-3 hours at the most in the summers to prevent the fish from dying.


Look UFgatorHARV, someone with some sense about him. Common sense. I think you're in denial UF. Dead,dead,dead!!! Thanks for the English lesson earlier.


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## RAYSOR

Good one GG, I hope my grammar is ok for u, I mean you, LOL


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## UFgatorHarv

Gator gar said:


> Well, the grammar police came out of you on that one didn't it??? We're all thinking to ourselves, man, I'd hate to be his wife or girlfriend. Heck, I wouldn't even want to fish with this guy if he is that technical. But, after evaluating everything you said, over the Thermocline threads, I think I know how you beat getting hit with dead fish.
> 
> First off, you said you have a deckhand that helps you. Who knows who else is lingering in the background that we don't know about. I figure, you go catch you a good mess of catfish a day or two before hand and put them in a live tank with an aerator. You stratigically place your jugs out there somewhere and then disappear and go wine and dine your clients at the fine eating establishments on the lake that you keep talking about.
> 
> Everyone is happy and nods off to sleep at the hotel, to later meet up at the lake with great anticipation of the next days catch. Well, an hour or so before the party arrives, said deckhand is out there hanging some nice frisky fish that just came out of the tank, on the jugs, that you have marked on the GPS almost guaranteeing you no dead fish on the line and everyone is happy as can be when they are pulling them nice fresh cats in.
> 
> Then you come on here bragging about how the thermocline doesn't (is that effect or affect) well, it doesn't matter, it just doesn't happen to you, with the dead fish. So you want to make a wager. Well, I have a nice aerator and a live tank and I bet you, that you can come to Lake Livingston and I can set jugs out this week-end and bet you $9,999.00 that there won't be a dead fish on my jugs the next morning either.
> 
> Who knows what goes on when you take your eyes off someone, especially if they are trying to run a successful business. Heck, they shoot deer in a pen. Why not hang some fresh cats on the line for some clients a hour before they arrive and you look like the hero.
> 
> I don't blame you for taking your wager off the table. You have probably ran off your good deckhand for not speaking proper english and don't have anyone to hang fish on the jugs. Plus as hot as it is, you know that Thermocline will get you.
> 
> Feel free to grade this paper for grammar and punctuation too, if you like. You're no longer my fishing friend.
> 
> Those six fish I was talking about, were in addition to the dead ones that I had. I caught a 6 more than was in the pic.


hahahahaha, I have to admit, that was pretty clever. I have to assume you are joking because I live 60 miles from Lake Conroe, and it would be a little hard to make any money by doing all that and charging $325. Not to mention the fact that as part of my wager, I offered for the person taking the bet to stay by my side all night to make sure that isn't exactly what I did. I would have even handed over the keys to my boat. Even if I did do it the way you say, I'd still have to catch the fish.

Thank you also for your concern about my deckhand and love life. I still have one of each. They seem to enjoy spending time with me and vice versa. We all seem to have fun at the lake together, probably because I can actually read and comprehend all their emails, they don't brag about embarassing people on the big, bad internet, and when we open their mouths, a coherent thought usually follows. On your side, you and dbullard are such a cute couple. I hope things continue going so well for the two of you.

Oh, and sorry you lost a fishing friend. No sweat though. I've never fished w/ you anyway. I figured we weren't "fishing friends" a month ago when I offered to take you and dbullard on a trip to Conroe in exchange for one in your neck of the woods. No repsonse from you, not even a "no."

Dang! I said I wouldn't comment anymore. Ah hell this is just TOO much fun. Yes students, in this instance, it is "too" not "to."

Lovingly,
UFgatorHarv
The anti-thermocline, abondoned jug line cutting, won't go to a muster because drinking's not allowed and what fun is that, rebel.


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## dbullard

I enjoyed the English lesson also. Makes me wish I would have studied English more and girls less. Wait a minute did I say that?


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## Gator gar

Alright UFgatorHARV, you're right and I am wrong. I'm moving on now.


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## dbullard

Dang GG we are cute ain't we ? Yes I know ain't ain't a word. Oh yea I must have missed the fishing trip offer. I have been to busy two timing old Gator Gar chasing White Bass with Shadslinger.
And by the way I was working at the age of 16 when you were born and married when you were still sh=ting your pants.
I may not use perfect english but I sure know a smart *** when I see one!!


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## t-tung

And I thought the Bluewater guys were the only ones that got in ******* matches.


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## UFgatorHarv

Well, there is at least one other person on this planet who seems to not have problems w/ thermoclines and doesn't mind saying it in public:

http://*********************/forums...10/Re_Time_to_stop_jug_fishing_an#Post3632410

You'll also notice his proper use of a comma prior to his conjuction in his compound sentence.


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## Gator gar

UFgatorHarv said:


> Well, there is at least one other person on this planet who seems to not have problems w/ thermoclines and doesn't mind saying it in public:
> 
> http://*********************/forums...10/Re_Time_to_stop_jug_fishing_an#Post3632410
> 
> You'll also notice his proper use of a comma prior to his conjuction in his compound sentence.


Yep, there looks to be one on every forum somewhere, telling lies like you. I've come to the conclusion, that you just don't fish too much. We can look at your boat and tell you are not serious about fishing.

Looks like you are more interested in luxury and getting your beer buzz on. Do you have an infalible tube under the seat in that boat so you can pull people around the lake, to take their minds off their fish dying in the summer???

If you would study catfishing, as hard as you study the proper use of English and punctuation, you might turn out to be a pretty good catfisherman. I don't see it happening, but you might suprise us.

Now, go play with this gay dolphin and relax. I've already said you were right and the other 99 percent of the catfisherman out here were wrong. What else do you need to hear???

:an6:


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## Shotgun Slim

I am kind of on the fence on this one. I don't have enough experience in this area to have an intelligent position. I am holding judgement until Harv and Piper go out on the 10th.

Hey....it's a different lake. I say for it to be proved one way or another, both lakes need to be fished by both juggers. Perhaps each will be amazed at the results of the other lake.

I am going to say that until it can be proved differently...there is a chance each could be right in their repective lake.

Can't wait to ge full account of the trip. I wish I would be in the area at time of weigh in, but I will be stuck on a job in Galveston. This AUGHT to be interesting.

Slim


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## UFgatorHarv

Gator gar said:


> Yep, there looks to be one on every forum somewhere, telling lies like you. I've come to the conclusion, that you just don't fish too much. We can look at your boat and tell you are not serious about fishing.
> 
> Looks like you are more interested in luxury and getting your beer buzz on. Do you have an infalible tube under the seat in that boat so you can pull people around the lake, to take their minds off their fish dying in the summer???
> 
> If you would study catfishing, as hard as you study the proper use of English and punctuation, you might turn out to be a pretty good catfisherman. I don't see it happening, but you might suprise us.
> 
> Now, go play with this gay dolphin and relax. I've already said you were right and the other 99 percent of the catfisherman out here were wrong. What else do you need to hear???
> 
> :an6:


Yep, I have a tube and a pair of water skis. It's nice to be young, thin, and in shape enough to participate in physical activity. I also like luxury and cheap beer, so sue me.


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## uncle dave

The reason catfish don't die on lake conroe is because the lake is constantly being areated by boat props.


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## Fish-a-mon

From what I've gathered from this post is GG is the best Catfish fisherman to live and nobody elses opinion or experience matters and if you are under 29 you should not even post your thoughts period. 

Now on to fish dying, well if the O2 level is not at the right level, fish will die. Lake ponds and tanks can have areas that are more rich in O2 than other areas. I've even seen them turn upside down in the summer months. 


A dead catfish is not a wasted fish BTW. It can be used for catfood hog traps put in the garden as fertilizer.

Heck better yet why not take said fish to fishery research so they can determine cause of death. TP&W would be a place to start.

BTW, I figure GG to be around 50 years of age. Am I close?


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## Arlon

Interesting. I don't know squat about catfish but I saw a bunch of buzzards this weekend dining on some big dead catfish. 
I wondered what could kill the catfish and figured it was a lack of oxygen in this heat(lake buchanan). Didn't get close enough to see if they had been jugged first but they sure where dead. At least I'll quit dwelling on the cause now.. 

Interesting post for the most part (information part).


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## Gator gar

Fish-a-mon said:


> From what I've gathered from this post is GG is the best Catfish fisherman to live and nobody elses opinion or experience matters and if you are under 29 you should not even post your thoughts period.
> 
> Now on to fish dying, well if the O2 level is not at the right level, fish will die. Lake ponds and tanks can have areas that are more rich in O2 than other areas. I've even seen them turn upside down in the summer months.
> 
> A dead catfish is not a wasted fish BTW. It can be used for catfood hog traps put in the garden as fertilizer.
> 
> Heck better yet why not take said fish to fishery research so they can determine cause of death. TP&W would be a place to start.
> 
> BTW, I figure GG to be around 50 years of age. Am I close?


Nope, I'm about the same age as you are actually. How about you tagging along in my spot with UF and Piper and see what conclusions you come to.

My cats eat cat food. I don't have any hog traps or a garden. I don't need TPWD to tell me how the fish died. They died from lack of oxygen, due to the Thermocline. I couldn't sell the dead fish, so yes, they were wasted.

I'm not the best catfisherman to ever live, but I do catch my share. I spend alot of time on the water. I fish and learn from the ones that have been doing it for years and they are considered the best.

I can't repeat what they think of UFgatorHARV and him saying his fish don't die during the summer when fishing deep. They're kind of a rough lot, but they can catch fish.

As far as anyones age is concerned, I think Dbullard was talking about the age thing, not me.

You coming on here with your O2 theory, is about as close to the truth as you can get. You may not know what you said, but you hit it on the head.

I've come to the conclusion, that no matter where you fish, there is a possibility that you could avoid the thermocline affects/effects.(For you UF) Somewhere out in any lake, depending on conditions, you might be able to hit it just right.

Lets say that instead of fishing 2 miles from the river channel like I did the other night. I moved next to the river channel, or even in the river channel. If they have 10 gates open at the Dam, like they did last week, surely there will be some oxygenated water at a deeper depth.

I guess it all has to do with jug placement. If you study the conditions of the lake and make the right decisions on jug placement, who knows what you might find.

You see UFgatorHARV, I told you. You were right and I was wrong. Don't forget to post your results with Piper though, if you don't mind.


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## Gator gar

UFgatorHarv said:


> Yep, I have a tube and a pair of water skis. It's nice to be young, thin, and in shape enough to participate in physical activity. I also like luxury and cheap beer, so sue me.


I see you didn't say anything about being good looking. I was going to get you on that one.


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## UFgatorHarv

Gator gar said:


> Nope, I'm about the same age as you are actually. How about you tagging along in my spot with UF and Piper and see what conclusions you come to.
> 
> My cats eat cat food. I don't have any hog traps or a garden. I don't need TPWD to tell me how the fish died. They died from lack of oxygen, due to the Thermocline. I couldn't sell the dead fish, so yes, they were wasted.
> 
> I'm not the best catfisherman to ever live, but I do catch my share. I spend alot of time on the water. I fish and learn from the ones that have been doing it for years and they are considered the best.
> 
> I can't repeat what they think of UFgatorHARV and him saying his fish don't die during the summer when fishing deep. They're kind of a rough lot, but they can catch fish.
> 
> As far as anyones age is concerned, I think Dbullard was talking about the age thing, not me.
> 
> You coming on here with your O2 theory, is about as close to the truth as you can get. You may not know what you said, but you hit it on the head.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion, that no matter where you fish, there is a possibility that you could avoid the thermocline affects/effects.(For you UF) Somewhere out in any lake, depending on conditions, you might be able to hit it just right.
> 
> Lets say that instead of fishing 2 miles from the river channel like I did the other night. I moved next to the river channel, or even in the river channel. If they have 10 gates open at the Dam, like they did last week, surely there will be some oxygenated water at a deeper depth.
> 
> I guess it all has to do with jug placement. If you study the conditions of the lake and make the right decisions on jug placement, who knows what you might find.
> 
> You see UFgatorHARV, I told you. You were right and I was wrong. Don't forget to post your results with Piper though, if you don't mind.


Now we're kinda getting somewhere w/ a little bt of diplomacy. The whole point of this thermocline discussion was not that fish never die. The point was that I am not killing them on my lines, so people should stop chastising me for doing it my way.

I'll post the results of the trip with Piper anyway it goes. We'll also have some preliminary results from the Masonic tourney in a week and a half more than likely.

What if piper and I go out, and we lose a few on his, bearing out his experiences, and we don't lose any on mine, meaning I'm telling the truth too. What is the conclusion then?


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## UFgatorHarv

Gator gar said:


> I see you didn't say anything about being good looking. I was going to get you on that one.


Had I known you had such a taste for men, I woulda purtied myself up a little in those pics.


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## Fish-a-mon

GG, are you a marine scientist or biologist? How do you know they died from Thermocline other than your opinion? Of the fish you are catching how many are dying on the jug? 50% 75%? man I would hate to think it was something else and we all could be harmed. 

Sure you personally might not need them for cat food or garden or hog traps, but there are people who would be glad to take them. They are wasted only if you do nothing with them, really. 


maybe I will try this weekend to duplicate your issue if the Whites are not biting. i doubt it though. Are you running multiple depths from say 15-25ft or further. I will be on Livingston.


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## JustAddWater2

*The Biggens*

Well get a big pot. We got live catfish for supper. Livingston, TX. Got to check your lines real frequent except when you get a monster that pulls you jugs under while having a cool one in a lawn chair. Thanks for the youngens keeping her alive on a ski rope while the grease gets hot.


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## Gilbert

catfishing is serious business :spineyes:


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## Gator gar

Fish-a-mon said:


> GG, are you a marine scientist or biologist? How do you know they died from Thermocline other than your opinion? Of the fish you are catching how many are dying on the jug? 50% 75%? man I would hate to think it was something else and we all could be harmed.
> 
> Sure you personally might not need them for cat food or garden or hog traps, but there are people who would be glad to take them. They are wasted only if you do nothing with them, really.
> 
> maybe I will try this weekend to duplicate your issue if the Whites are not biting. i doubt it though. Are you running multiple depths from say 15-25ft or further. I will be on Livingston.


It would be hard for me to be a professional anything, if I'm hauling around a bunch of dead catfish trying to give them to my neighbors. I guess this post got a little too much exposure. I think I will move on. Y'all have a good day and a safe week-end.


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## Cartman

I would suspect the thermocline depth is different from lake to lake. All lakes have different channels, different overall depths, flood gate discharges, there's too many variables. Who is to say who is wrong or right?


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## UFgatorHarv

I really believe that everyone here is telling the truth. I just think there are other factors in play. As I stated before, people see a dead fish and utter a de facto "thermocline." Piper and I will get it squared away... on Conroe anyway.


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## atcfisherman

OK, I posted a little earlier but feel the need to jump back in. I am a degreed environmental chemist and work for a research company. I have studied a little about lake turn overs and yes, each lake will be slightly different from others due to many factors. However let me put is very simple again, IF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT CATFISH DYING ON YOUR JUG OR TROT LINES, CHECK THEM EVERY 1-3 HOURS AT THE MOST.

This will help tremendously and is to me just common sense. Also, when a catfish gets on a hook, he doesn't just die in 5 minutes unless he is hooked in the gills. He tries to get off. So, checking the line more frequently will help catch live catfish and lower the chance of them dying.

Lastly, when oxygen levels dip at various levels in a lake, they typically stratify depending on the depth and any fresh water intrusions. Catfish as well as other fish are smart enough (there God given instincts) to move to the area where the dissolved oxygen is suitable for them. It is like a person walking into a cloud of of smoke, they will naturally try to get out of the way and into fresh air to breath.

BOTTOM LINE: Check the lines more frequently!


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## Fish-a-mon

Thanks ATC. Just a figured there might be someone with a little education on board. that was my point to GG, it might be something else other than Thermocline.

GG, how about freezing them and getting the word out. There are hog outfitters in your area that would love to use them as bait mixture and would pay for them. Get out of the box, take the blinders off. They are only wasted if you toss them. If they go back into the lake dead they serve a purpose, but you can not make a dime on them. I say make a dime.


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## CT

Lakes or bodies of water have two mechanisms for oxygenating, photosynthesis and diffusion and each method is dependent on many factors. 

Photosynthesis is dependent on sunlight to produce oxygen. So if photosynthesis was the only mechanism for oxygenation aquatic animal life would deplete most available O2 during night-time hours. 

Diffusion has several means adding O2, rain, wave action (agitation), stream/river flow…etc. During the summer months when there is less rain or no rain, which also effects stream/river flow, it limits amount higher oxygenated water available to mix or re-oxygenate. Less windy days during these dog days of summer also means less agitation of lakes resulting less available O2. Also during these heat periods we can lose as much as ½” per day due evaporation. 

During this period of what we commonly refer to as “Thermocline” many factors relate to available oxygen for aquatic animal life. Thermocline has a cause and effect on O2 levels. It has an effect on the lakes ability to supply oxygen for aquatic animal life. Warmer water is less dense which does not hold as much O2. Cooler water holds more O2, but the thermocline prevents mixing with warmer layers. So the lower cooler water is soon depleted of most available oxygen. Decaying plants and animal life along with limited aquatic life use quickly deplete more O2 than is replaced in this lower layer. Not all areas of a lake will have these dead zones and I use the term dead zones loosely nor will they be in the same area day to day. Lakes are under state of change day to day and hour to hour.

Rarely or never have I been effected rod and reel fishing by the “thermocline” where I have lost fish (reeled in a dead fish due suffocation). But jug lines or set lines that are fished below the thermocline has affected me resulting in dead fish. I’m aware of the effect and attempt to not leave lines set for long periods without checking them. During this period I prefer to check every hook at least every hour. As I said before some areas may not be affected, but I don’t like to waste any animal due to my neglect.


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## Freshwaterman

nice treatise ct, clear concise and understandable-------------guess an o-2/ temperature reading at depth would be the only "proof" of thermocline existance

i have been interested in this from a technical standpoint -------understanding is the key to solution

again thanks-------i'll run my jugs often often

dave


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## bueyescowboy

well i can add my 2 cents...everytime in heat like this...on trout lines in less that 25 ft of water...i have ran the lines sometimes rather quickly and most of the time the catfish will be dead....no oxygen in the water.

so thats why i head out to the old trinity river channel and drop one of them lines down there about 45 to 50 ft. yea thats a fun trout line. and a trout line in the middle of the lake can get fun to run especially in rough water. then most of the time I don't have to worry about dead cat's.
I generally won't even mess with anything less....not worth it to me.

and I generally only use floaters when I am jugging....so that means I stay close and when the jug bounces I grab the cat. I will say that I have caught some good cat's on the floater's during this heat. I usually will put out about 10 floaters and have them drift to the boat as I white bass fish.....it called my 2 for 1. then as the jugs come floating to me I just yank them up. Usually, with 10 jugs during this time...i may have 4 to 5 cats on the jugs.....that just kinda tops off the white bass fishing.

Once again, my experience I won't even mess with anything less than 25 ft during the hot months of summer.


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## UFgatorHarv

bueyescowboy said:


> well i can add my 2 cents...everytime in heat like this...on trout lines in less that 25 ft of water...i have ran the lines sometimes rather quickly and most of the time the catfish will be dead....no oxygen in the water.
> 
> so thats why i head out to the old trinity river channel and drop one of them lines down there about 45 to 50 ft. yea thats a fun trout line. and a trout line in the middle of the lake can get fun to run especially in rough water. then most of the time I don't have to worry about dead cat's.
> I generally won't even mess with anything less....not worth it to me.
> 
> and I generally only use floaters when I am jugging....so that means I stay close and when the jug bounces I grab the cat. I will say that I have caught some good cat's on the floater's during this heat. I usually will put out about 10 floaters and have them drift to the boat as I white bass fish.....it called my 2 for 1. then as the jugs come floating to me I just yank them up. Usually, with 10 jugs during this time...i may have 4 to 5 cats on the jugs.....that just kinda tops off the white bass fishing.
> 
> Once again, my experience I won't even mess with anything less than 25 ft during the hot months of summer.


Doesn't this contradict what most others are saying?


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## bueyescowboy

We went out with a guide and he had baited out over night and when we ran them fish over 20 ft were dead yes ufgator dead.All fish under 20 ft were alive. This was posted by ole slime on the line.

I see the words: guide....and over 20 ft meaning 1-20 being DEAD (no oxygen) thats why the fish are white as ghost. and under 20 ft meaning 21 to deeper... lets say....45 ft ALIVE! 

Hey you do as you want....I ve pulled many a ghost catfish up just to plunk it back over the side. And it was hurricane rita that did away with my 50 ft trout line and I know I was still pulling up LIVE catfish on that line right before rita...oh and I might add in that depth your generally going to pull up some big boys...not many 4 lber's. The big boys like it deep. Hence, I have heard that there are some giant cat's somewhere before the dam at livingston (once again, in really deep water). If i am correct they stay in the deep all year long. Don't know if it's true, I do not dive.

I am just going off experience. that being about 4 yrs. which isn't many but enough to know...I wouldn"t mess with anything less than 25 ft during this heat. Let's say if today I was going to drop a line, You would see me out in the middle of the old trinity river bed. 45' or more...if I am going to spend any amount of time and money...it going to be well spent. when you drop a line at that depth, you drop it once, and it better be heavy duty.

Its your time and its your money....

I had to go back into my files and as you notice in the pics...it was about this time 2 years ago...I believe that would put us right before rita....I believe both of these cats came off the trout line in 50 ft of water.... I am not to sure...but they look alot better that gators ghost cats. theres the dates and theres the cats

I ll go on with some more of my experience ....why do you think the white bass start out the year at about 8 ft then steadily move deeper as the water warms up? At this time of year most are running 20 ft and deeper. I ll tell you! They are eating shad. But the shad are where the oxygen is at. As the water warms up the oxygen level drops deeper. Even better the white bass trap the shad on a ridge at a certain depth and lunch is on!! But now is my favor time because so many shad get gathered in one spot and the white bass trapping them...they start hitting the surface to get away from the white bass....its called schooling....that is when you ll see the white bass going into shallower water....but as soon as the shad move off the white bass usually return to the deeper water. I know most of this for fact...because i ve seen it to many times...last year I seen the white bass school at least 20 times...and to add more...thats also a perfect time to have jugs floating. the shad not only attact the white bass but also the cats. 
you decide....gator gars ghost catfish..no very appealling....or my cat's?
enough said


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## bueyescowboy

oh I see I may have posted slime on the line quote wrong...I ll still hold to my guns...I won't drop anything but something deep. And I would say 25 ft and more....if not....I guanrantee dead fish in no time. Or somebody clubbed my cats to death shallow.

double dipping blue


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## bueyescowboy

oh I see I may have posted slime on the line quote wrong...I ll still hold to my guns...I won't drop anything but something deep. And I would say 25 ft and more....if not....I guanrantee dead fish in no time. Or somebody clubbed my cats to death shallow making them white as ghost. (no oxygen)

double dipping blue


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## CT

Just a personal observation after reading the threads and post relating to this thread. Most folks agree there is an effect related to "thermocline" with the exception of one from another forum who was in the single minority. Harv don't take this as an insult, but you're not winning any friends. As a guide it is your job to promote your service by any means possible in a positive manner. Who do think from these posts will refer possible clients to you?


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## UFgatorHarv

CT said:


> Just a personal observation after reading the threads and post relating to this thread. Most folks agree there is an effect related to "thermocline" with the exception of one from another forum who was in the single minority. Harv don't take this as an insult, but you're not winning any friends. As a guide it is your job to promote your service by any means possible in a positive manner. Who do think from these posts will refer possible clients to you?


I'm not insulted at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I really could honestly care less. I didn't bring this up, and when it came up, I tried to avoid it.


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## UFgatorHarv

bueyescowboy said:


> We went out with a guide and he had baited out over night and when we ran them fish over 20 ft were dead yes ufgator dead.All fish under 20 ft were alive. This was posted by ole slime on the line.
> 
> I see the words: guide....and over 20 ft meaning 1-20 being DEAD (no oxygen) thats why the fish are white as ghost. and under 20 ft meaning 21 to deeper... lets say....45 ft ALIVE!
> 
> Hey you do as you want....I ve pulled many a ghost catfish up just to plunk it back over the side. And it was hurricane rita that did away with my 50 ft trout line and I know I was still pulling up LIVE catfish on that line right before rita...oh and I might add in that depth your generally going to pull up some big boys...not many 4 lber's. The big boys like it deep. Hence, I have heard that there are some giant cat's somewhere before the dam at livingston (once again, in really deep water). If i am correct they stay in the deep all year long. Don't know if it's true, I do not dive.
> 
> I am just going off experience. that being about 4 yrs. which isn't many but enough to know...I wouldn"t mess with anything less than 25 ft during this heat. Let's say if today I was going to drop a line, You would see me out in the middle of the old trinity river bed. 45' or more...if I am going to spend any amount of time and money...it going to be well spent. when you drop a line at that depth, you drop it once, and it better be heavy duty.
> 
> Its your time and its your money....
> 
> I had to go back into my files and as you notice in the pics...it was about this time 2 years ago...I believe that would put us right before rita....I believe both of these cats came off the trout line in 50 ft of water.... I am not to sure...but they look alot better that gators ghost cats. theres the dates and theres the cats
> 
> I ll go on with some more of my experience ....why do you think the white bass start out the year at about 8 ft then steadily move deeper as the water warms up? At this time of year most are running 20 ft and deeper. I ll tell you! They are eating shad. But the shad are where the oxygen is at. As the water warms up the oxygen level drops deeper. Even better the white bass trap the shad on a ridge at a certain depth and lunch is on!! But now is my favor time because so many shad get gathered in one spot and the white bass trapping them...they start hitting the surface to get away from the white bass....its called schooling....that is when you ll see the white bass going into shallower water....but as soon as the shad move off the white bass usually return to the deeper water. I know most of this for fact...because i ve seen it to many times...last year I seen the white bass school at least 20 times...and to add more...thats also a perfect time to have jugs floating. the shad not only attact the white bass but also the cats.
> you decide....gator gars ghost catfish..no very appealling....or my cat's?
> enough said


Dude, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. In fact, you kinda helped support my arguement in a backwards sort of way. I was just pointing out that it is a bit contradictory to everyone on this thread who argues against me. Thank you, and I'm being serious. :cheers:


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