# 2010 HARC Rules & Schedule - Update / Apology



## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

First off, I would like to issue an apology:

At the last race on January 2nd, there were questions as to whether or not a pit stop was required for 10 minute B-Mains. Although it was 2010, we were still under the 2009 rules. I posted the 2010 rules about a month ago (in 2009), and this has evidently caused confusion. Under the 2009 rules, it was not required. Under the 2010 rules, it is now required. 

We correctly followed the 2009 rules, so no results would have changed.

However, amidst this confusion, I evidently got myself confused as well. Many people questioned me about it, and the apparently the last 18 months of debate/frustration/constant complaints in trying to iron out rules that would make racing electric and nitro fair to be raced as one class, came to a head and I raised my voice with several people. I also mis-informed many people about what the rules were for that day, and what they would be going forth.

I do not like losing my cool, and I did so to some of you&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.I am truly sorry&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.I was in the wrong.


SOOOOO, to move on and go forth here are the updated rules and schedule. 

Please note that February's date has been changed in order to accommodate a large race that will be happening in LA. Additionally, I have corrected the November date from a Monday, to a corrected Saturday. I will continue to make sure you guys are aware of any date changes.

PLEASE make sure and read these rules (including pit stop rules) so that there is no more confusion going forth. Each track is being given this info as well so that we will all be on the same page.

If you have any questions about interpreting the rules, now is the time to ask&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


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## xtermenator (Dec 14, 2007)

*2010 Schedule*

Courtny,

You did a great job with HARC this past year.

I post the new schedule at Larrys


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

xtermenator said:


> Courtny,
> 
> You did a great job with HARC this past year.


I second that! Look forward to 2010.


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## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

Courtney Vaughan said:


> First off, I would like to issue an apology:


Courtney what the Ef you talking about, I didn't notice anything wrong, relax its all good. :brew2:


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## Earl_Sparky (Jan 12, 2008)

I also feel bad that some people got upset.
I understand how frustrating it is when you put a lot of money and effort into something and lose because someone has an unfair advantage. That is why I am a big advocate of separate Nitro and Electric classes.
Some Nitro cars get over 10mins of run time some under.
I don’t have the right pipe on my Nitro right now and only get about 8mins run time. So I’m at a disadvantage in a 10min main with the 2009 rules.
As soon as I get my new pipe in I will get over 10mins run time with my Nitro and I will have an advantage over the electric car that is required to pit with 2010 rules.
There will always be controversy with the two cars in the same class.
I plan on running my Nitro with Nitro and my Electric with Electric because I don’t want to be the one causing this kind of controversy.
Just watch out…. I have not figured out how to drive a Nitro yet and now I’m trying to drive my Electric like a Nitro. I’m all over the place!! :bluefish:


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Earl, I wondered about about how you were going to be able to transfer back/forth between having to blip the nitro at one spot on the track, and roll on the throttle at the same spot on the track with the electric!


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Earl_Sparky said:


> I also feel bad that some people got upset.
> I understand how frustrating it is when you put a lot of money and effort into something and lose because someone has an unfair advantage. That is why I am a big advocate of separate Nitro and Electric classes.
> Some Nitro cars get over 10mins of run time some under.
> I don't have the right pipe on my Nitro right now and only get about 8mins run time. So I'm at a disadvantage in a 10min main with the 2009 rules.
> ...


Earl, by your own statement you show that even within gas class; tuning and equipment in addition to driver style can determine if someone pits at 5-7min or 10-12min. Are they at a disadvantage to themselves? shall we separate the 10min nitroers from the 5min nitroers? it is a legitimate advantage to run 10min vs 5min and pit half as much!

I like CVs system for this coming season. Sure 20min a-main is the worse possible senario for electric vs. a 10, 15 or 30min main against nitros since if forces us to do a 25-30sec battery change or sometimes drive slower and gimped to guarantee we make 20min with no battery change. But here is the upside.

1. Gas guys dont have much of a foot to stand on from a "you have an advantage" point of view.

and 2. for us to get on par we either have to step up our battery change speed or it forces us to be smoother drivers with more efficient cars.

When I see David Joor run 20min (with mah to spare) on one pack and smoke everyone I know its doable at high competitive speeds. So dont sweat it, again it just forces us to better our game.


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## Earl_Sparky (Jan 12, 2008)

Jason,
It’s just club racing so it really doesn’t matter to me, but some people take club racing more serious.
But you don’t have much of an argument. You will never see any major Pro events mix them and there is a common sense reason. Good luck!


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Na, I stand by my post.


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## Earl_Sparky (Jan 12, 2008)

It's about respect.
I know I have a better chance of winning an expert class race with my Electric car than with my Nitro car.
It's easier to drive and less work to maintain. That is just it. They are too different to really race in the same class.
People who race electric do it because it is easy, fun, consistent, no pit person&#8230;
People who race Nitro do it because it is a challenge, real engine, real sound, closer to full scale car racing...
Electric racers need to respect the Nitro class for what it is.
Nitro racers need to respect the Electric class for what it is.
If you mix them you will lose some of both type racers.
Some electric racers because it is very costly to run long races that require a pit person. 10-15mins is long enough for electric.
Some nitro racers because it sucks to lose to someone who does not have the same driving and maintenance challenges.
Does F1, Nascar and Rally run in the same class? After all, they are all gas cars.
Better yet, why is there a "stock slash" and a "mod slash" class? They are both electric?


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Earl/Jason/Electric drivers:

Please help me keep an eye on how many electrics are racing at each race. If we average 12-15 electrics this year, then there is no reason not to break out the class. If we average less than 10 or so, then there no reason to break out for a new class.

We CAN all race together.........I think these new rules will really level the playing field.


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## troytyro (Feb 3, 2009)

IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN


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## MattOCM (Jul 18, 2007)

Two things that i noticed from saturday that needs to be looked at on the pitting side of the rules. At the start of the race the electrics come in right away in the first 15-20 secs of the race. The Nitro cars have to run 5-7.5 mins side by side with other cars. While this is happening things happen and crashes take place and the field is bunched together. The eletric car has pitted and has a good gap of clean track for things to work themselves out. I would like to see if a rule can be looked at to close pit road for electrics that are just coming in for there 3 sec pit stop(Not battery change) to come in between the 5-7.5 min mark in a 15 min race and 5-7 and 14-16 in a 20 min. The electric guys will tell you that coming in right away is a advantage. Just my thoughts. Also there needs to be a rule if you die on the track that a marshall is not allowed to help your car across the line you must go back to pit road and start from there. That happend this weekend in the sportsman a main at the end of the race on the last lap and changed the results. 

Drivers Meetings in the beginning of the day would be a huge help. Also people need to corner. Saturday we had the same two people not corner all day but when it came for them to be cornerd that complained we werent fast enough. If you race you get out there and do your part.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Matt, as far as your comment on giving the electric guys a pit window........I understand your comment/concern. I do take it seriously, and the below is in no way "blowing you off".....

It's not something that we have the manpower to enforce, nor is it something I'd want to put as a rule anyway. Pit strategy has ALWAYS been a part of ALL forms of racing that have pit stops. 

I did essentially the same thing with my nitro that you're describing with the electrics at this last race: I have a 10+ minute motor, and I came in around 2 minutes so I could give myself 8+ minutes to catch up to everyone (rather than 3-5 if you pitted at the half-way mark). So that if I was following a big group of people that pitted at the half-way mark, I would drive right by them and pick up multiple positions in one lap. If I wouldn't have wrecked at two spots right at about the half-way mark, I would have went from 6th to 2nd in one fail swoop! 

So, to drive a rule like that, it would have to be universal for nitro AND electric......and I'm not going to limit people's pit strategies in nitro. Electrics and nitros BOTH have advantages/disadvantages on the track....this is just one of them.

As far as the other things you mentioned...........well, those are general track rules, which are left to the track to enforce. Next time you see someone not marshalling, you have every right to let the race director know. Same goes with pushing someone across the finish line.....that's a no-no and should be reported to the race director IMMEDIATELY.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

And you're right, we need to go back to drivers meetings before the race and before the mains............


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## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

troytyro said:


> IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN


I'm with Troy and Earl, a split needs to happen. I spent over $300 this past Xmas to get a motor/pipe/EGC to be able to go 10 minutes plus. I enjoy racing with you guys and try not to let these things get in the way of the hobby. I would like to see an "apple to apple" race


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## Guffinator (Aug 27, 2005)

Guess I'll chime in...

I purposely didn't race Truggy this last weekend because I knew I couldn't make run time and would have to do a battery swap, pretty much eliminating any chance I have for winning. Just throwing that out...

To me it IS 2 different forms of racing. I'm contemplating doing what Earl did and actually having one of each so I can enjoy both forms. To me it's not about one vs the other, it's about enjoying both aspects.


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## troytyro (Feb 3, 2009)

:cheers:


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Truggy will DEFINITELY have a problem justifying the class split to the tracks......they're not going to want to run a class with 4 electric truggies, then a second class with 5 nitro truggies..........

You guys have to remember that this is also about what the tracks want as well. They don't want to run 8-10 small classes (and honestly, they probably won't let us). This isn't just about what I/ya'll want, it's also about what the tracks will actually do for us sometimes too. 

Just keep that in mind........it's part of all of these discussions that you guys never see.....me negotiating with the tracks what they'll accomodate us with.


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## Snowmonkey (Sep 12, 2004)

Courtney what motor are you running I didnt see one person go 10 minutes on a tank at the race ?


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Novarossi 21BF Limited Edition with Dynamite 053MR red carb restrictor. I was running the bottom end rich and the top end a little lean......as I showed you from the front bearing weeping oil.

Consistently ran 10+ minutes all day........although, I did not risk it and go for a no-stopper in the B-maiin. In hindsight, I could have because I still had about a 1/4 tank left after running for about 8 minutes.

However, it was not enough power to clear the whoops most times......if I hit it right, it would make it to about the next to last whoop.

Both of my P5XS's were the same, but had more power.

Hoping my new P5XL will be as well, but that's yet to be seen..........it's not even out of the package yet!


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## wily (Oct 14, 2005)

MattOCM said:


> Two things that i noticed from saturday that needs to be looked at on the pitting side of the rules. At the start of the race the electrics come in right away in the first 15-20 secs of the race. The Nitro cars have to run 5-7.5 mins side by side with other cars. While this is happening things happen and crashes take place and the field is bunched together. The eletric car has pitted and has a good gap of clean track for things to work themselves out. I would like to see if a rule can be looked at to close pit road for electrics that are just coming in for there 3 sec pit stop(Not battery change) to come in between the 5-7.5 min mark in a 15 min race and 5-7 and 14-16 in a 20 min. The electric guys will tell you that coming in right away is a advantage. Just my thoughts. Also there needs to be a rule if you die on the track that a marshall is not allowed to help your car across the line you must go back to pit road and start from there. That happend this weekend in the sportsman a main at the end of the race on the last lap and changed the results.
> 
> Drivers Meetings in the beginning of the day would be a huge help. Also people need to corner. Saturday we had the same two people not corner all day but when it came for them to be cornerd that complained we werent fast enough. If you race you get out there and do your part.


I am the one who died on the last lap coming down the straight. To clear any confusion up I was limping across the line to finish 3rd(same as any other nitro/electric guy would do).

We took a close look at the laps and times and I volunteered to drop a lap and get 4th place. It didnt affect anyones outcome but mine. I was bashed pretty hard after the race, but thought we all had it worked out before we left.

Anyone who knows me already knows that I just want to race, and have some fun. I have my reasons for going electric....keeping 5 gas cars for me and my sons going is impossible.

Please!...get your facts right to make your own oppinions.

Willy


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Easy fellers....these are toy cars!

Willy did the right thing and gave up his position.....at the expense of a trophy. Willy plays fair...........

Last season is over.......let's get excited for next season!!!!!!


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## mmorrow (Jan 18, 2009)

I want to see someone in the expert Amain on the gas go 10mins that is not named Adam Drake. Someone local


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

You want 3-4 electrics to bottle neck the pits with you gas guys at those times? Dont think so.

By us getting our required pits early such as the first lap, we are doing you ALL a favor by thinning the field at the start so there isnt as much traffic and staying the heck out of your way during pits around minute 5-7. Houston has slim pitting lanes at ALL of our tracks. Should we ask the 8 & 10 minute gas guys to come in at 5 minutes too to be fair to your buggies "setup"? NO.....

Plus it seems every time we do pit around the nitro pits times if we dont contribute to traffic in there and get screamed at, the commotion of 2-3 other gas cars getting pitted has people overlook the fact that we even came in to do our pit! Then we get accused of not doing our mandatory pits! Next comes whining to the race director and CV about it (i **** you not, its happened more than once). By doing it on off minutes there is NO excuse by competing gas pit teams that we did or didn't do our mandatory pits. I hear your logic but no. We have been there done that.

I agree with CV let us space out and practice individual strategy. Even when we were all gas, pitting has always been a strategy of racing and not micro managed by officials even then.


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## MattOCM (Jul 18, 2007)

Willy is not directed to personally. The one at fault is the corner marshall that doesnt know the rules not you. LOL unless you paid them afterwards. With the growth in electric and slashes in Houston there brings alot of new faces coming to race and may or may not know the rules. a quick meeting ahead of the race day will go a long way. On the pitting you have a point CV in coming in two mins but it is not in the first 15-30 secs. You can not tell me that coming in that early is not advantage. Lets keep you off pit road for 2 mins in a ten race and see if you have the same advantage when you get to race side by side. In turn by coming in right at the start you have eliminated the traffic and makes easy to pass when in the pits. I run truggy and i can tell you in a 15 min race when i come in at the 7:30 mark and the eletrics have already pitted at the 30 sec mark that is a HUGE advantage to them. You can ask any experinced racer and they would agree this isnt my first show in racing not just RC. Food for thought.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Answer is yes I can tell you that Matt. I come in within first 2 min even when i'm TQ (which was 4/6 of the the last few HARC Sportsman races) I have no traffic in front of me and do it anyways for the same 3 reasons I listed above (1. clear traffic for rest of guys, 2. make sure people see me pit, 3. not tangle with gas guys in pits at 5-7 slowing them down). If anything I'm shooting myself in the foot when I come out in 10th place when 3 seconds before I was in 1st (when i do this on lap 1), as I have to address lap traffic and pass 9 cars to come from behind and fight for a win. Sorry man but NO. I absolutely do not have an advantage.


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## Smiley (Feb 2, 2005)

So much blah blah blah, Lets just race.  And yes, 10 minutes is very possiable. When I wat at Vertigo Sunday, I timed a few tanks. The last tank I ran out of fuel at 10:30. That was running 229, and Driving Hard. So, 10 is not out of the question. Saturday, after a 5min Qual, Including the 30-45 sec before the race after you get fueled up, I had half a tank left. So, Never count out a 10min pit. The new harc rules fix the pitting in the B's, so thats all good. But If there is 10 or more 1/8 Electric Buggies, They should probably have their own class.


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## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

*Man theres just too much* *going on here and seems to be always after a race at Mikes*. Thank god theres two other tracks on the schedule this year.:brew2:


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

LOL its debate, well at least to me. If it is crying on their side I cant control that. 

10min is great at Vertigo man! I'm getting sucky milage out there since its so loomy. I'm definitely going to have to do a battery change next race.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Smiley said:


> The new harc rules fix the pitting in the B's, so thats all good. But If there is 10 or more 1/8 Electric Buggies, They should probably have their own class.


While it will suck not having a larger pool of competition. I have to admit maybe it will stop the


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

Nitro is Nitro. Elec. is Elec. 2 totally different classes....SEPERATE and End of discussion....easy fix....


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## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

I just wanna race!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## slickrick (Dec 4, 2009)

Maybe someone needs to make a hybrid buggy...
that would solve everyones problem.


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## troytyro (Feb 3, 2009)

I used to run a 20 minute A main in sportsman. what happened.

ANSWER THAT!!!!


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## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

troytyro said:


> I used to run a 20 minute A main in sportsman. what happened.
> 
> ANSWER THAT!!!!


Man Troy you brought back great memories, I even remember 30 minute mains, those were the good old days. Hey wait a minute that was a year ago, when Earl was the only electric and he would actually do a battery change just to keep going.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

killerkustoms said:


> Man Troy you brought back great memories, I even remember 30 minute mains, those were the good old days. Hey wait a minute that was a year ago, when Earl was the only electric and he would actually do a battery change just to keep going.


We would be game to going back to that in a hearbeat!


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

slickrick said:


> Maybe someone needs to make a hybrid buggy...
> that would solve everyones problem.


Na, then the hybrid class would argue with themselves all day!


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

You guys realize we've been having this argument for almost TWO FREAKIN' YEARS!!!!????

In the ENTIRE time we've been having this debate, I've yet to see anyone at a HARC race get bumped out or lose a position at the finish line because of any of the stuff that gets mentioned on here.......it's ALWAYS because of crashes or lap times.

This is like nit-picking the Mod vs. Stock Slash.......in the end, it didn't amount to anything.....it was all down to the driver!

For the last time, can we PLEASE just get out there and race!?!?!?


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## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

+1000000 Courtney


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## darrenwilliams (Apr 21, 2008)

I am afraid this argument will last forever..........


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## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

Me too Darren, me too...


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## Guffinator (Aug 27, 2005)

I'm not..LET'S RACE!


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## mmorrow (Jan 18, 2009)

Smiley why did you not pit at the 10 min mark then? I still what to see someone go 10 mins.

Ruben what does Mikes have to do with this? Do you have a problem with Mikes?


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## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

mmorrow said:


> Ruben what does Mikes have to do with this? Do you have a problem with Mikes?


Nothing with Mikes just seems like alot of arguing follows after a race there.


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## troytyro (Feb 3, 2009)

Mark i will try a 10 min pit, i was getting 11 mins on a tank at vertigo as well.
flame out or not


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## mmorrow (Jan 18, 2009)

sorry Troy I said Amain exp. : ) JK ohhhh!!!

What motor are you running? 

Jake and I have talked about this many times, and neither of us can get any better than the 7.5 mins per pit


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

Shoot, I can go 10 minute during practice....almost anyone can if they have a decent tune....try it during a race and I bet ya can't go that far....


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## Snowmonkey (Sep 12, 2004)

I dont think so if people could get more they wouldn,t pit until the 10 min mark i hear everybody talking but i didn't see this in the main and if i could get the run time i would do it and Mark's tune is lean and then he turns it in another 3 hours ;-)


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

After several of the heats last weekend, I stayed on the track and ran for another 5-6 minutes.

I will admit this though, I have never actually tried it under race conditions. The closest I've come was like I mentioned above.....5 minutes under race conditions, and then 5-6 by myself. 

So, it's possible that there is truth to both sides...........


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## mmorrow (Jan 18, 2009)

I can get about 1.5 mins longer during practice than I can during the race.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

I had Mark Pavidis tell me he got 12min in races on his O.S. 21 (this was about 7 yrs ago) and when I asked how. He stated that he just ran really lean so his motor sipped fuel very conservatively. Yet he was still fast since it was so lean and yet he didnt have temp issues because he said he just ran smoothly and consistent. That made sense watching him run cuz he was never a herky jerky sorta blast around the track sorta driver, he looked smooth and deliberate on every move of his car, didnt crash so he had constant air flow and as quite and calm as his car was, you just couldn't see it getting too hot. 

Oh and he wasn't a hard blipster on the throttle. Many guys i see (myself included when i ran gas) would hard blip 3-5 times per turn (major fuel dumping). He would coast in "maybe" blip softly at 25% throttle and accelerate smoothly out. I think since he was running so lean too he didnt need to blip so much. This all made for a very fuel conservative car and drive style.


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## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

troytyro said:


> Mark i will try a 10 min pit, i was getting 11 mins on a tank at vertigo as well.
> flame out or not












Hey guys this thing could help us nitro guys go that 10 minutes we have been looking for. I happen to see one of these on Smileys car and articles say it will increase runtime from 30-120 seconds. They range anywhere from $15-$30 and I'm gonna try it out and see if theres any truth to the product.

http://www.rc-uwants.com/heli/rct-exhaust-gas-cooler.html


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Thats a neat idea. I suppose you can put one both in the exhaust tube and liquid fuel line too to cool from both ends. You'd really want to keep that away from the pipe or you'd be heating it.


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## mmorrow (Jan 18, 2009)

I have not tried the fuel line cooler yet.
let me know how it works.


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## Snowmonkey (Sep 12, 2004)

Smiley has his right next to his pipe so i am not sure how cool it gets.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Extra volume. lol


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## Smiley (Feb 2, 2005)

The heat from the pipe does not affect the temp of the fuel going into the Exhaust Cooler. It is after all called an "Exhaust Cooler"! Not too many places to put it either. Mine gave me an extra 50-70 Sec. of runtime. Definately worth the $30!


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Smiley said:


> The heat from the pipe does not affect the temp of the fuel going into the Exhaust Cooler. It is after all called an "Exhaust Cooler"! Not too many places to put it either. Mine gave me an extra 50-70 Sec. of runtime. Definately worth the $30!


Wow thats pretty significant for such a small thing. Definitely worth it!

No but what I ment was would it work if you used 2, one from exhaust to tank as its ment to, then another one perhaps by your fuel filter to cool the fuel on route from fuel tank to engine?

The description says "The fuel is cooler and so allow better performance" so double cooling on liquid side as well as exhaust side would help too no?


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Isn't there a ROAR rule about fuel volume, length of tubing etc?


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## Smiley (Feb 2, 2005)

Yes, 1/8 Buggy (125cc), Truggy (150cc).

Jason, Its meant to be an Exhaust Cooler!


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## Tobey (Jan 12, 2010)

Total newcomer to HARC here. Couple of questions:

1. I'm thinking about trying to race on the 23rd at Vertigo. Are there loaner/rental transponders available?

2. What's the typical class size for the CORR trucks? 

3. I dabbled in touring car racing about 8 years ago, but have never raced off road. Should I sign up for the novice class? I'm thinking of making it a game-time decisions, depending on the number of entries.

Thanks for any advice. I recently got back into RC with a Slash, and found I had forgotten how much fun it is.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

1. not to my knowledge, you have to call them.
2. bring what ya got, it will be cool
3. novice or sportsman. only 1 class for Corr trucks.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

1. River Track has a few loaner transponders. Mikes USUALLY has at least 1 to rent. Vertigo was considering some rentals, but like Jason said, you should call them. Best bet is to bite the bullet and get a new/used one. Even if you decide you don't want to race, you can usually sell them for close to what you paid for them.

2. 5-15 trucks. I know it's a big range, but you never know. I can guarantee you there will be enough for some fun, so bring what you got!

3. You should run in the regular class if you have EVER raced before. It will come back to you WAY quicker than you think.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Welcome to 2Cool Tobey.


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## Tobey (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks guys. Hopefully I'll be able to make it out.


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