# What will happen?



## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

I posted this on another forum this evening. Just wondered if any one here might have a comment or can add their opinion. This will be a point of dicussion for several months I am sure.

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The debris in the lower lake might become a long term problem. Eventually most of the heavy logs and timber will drift into shallow areas and get hung up. Some of this drifts will become blue cat spawning areas for awhile until they become buried in silt.
That could be a plus. The big negative impact will be all of those water Hyacinth plants that are now rafted in the lower end. Those plants are alive. The cold weather will kill back the leaves and stems but the root system survives. Next spring each one of those bulbs will produce a dozen new sprouts. Any one familiar with the oxbow lakes and bayous of east Texas nows how prolific they can be.
The rafts will eventually break up in the winter winds that shift north to south every few days. The problem is the bulkheads that cover most of the lake shoreline. These will keep the plants in water deep enough to continue to propagate.

Back in the 70's TRA and TP&W fought the hyacinths and duck weed in the upper lake. They sprayed thousands of acres every year. The demise of the standing timber allowed the wind and waves to keep the rafts in smaller areas. But as evident of the amount of plants now in the lower lake the hyacinths are still holding their own.

Maybe if some of the coves and creek mouths become floating gardens the LMB and other scale fish will make a come back in the lower lake. Only time will tell.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

I noticed today that the stuff is degrading pretty fast, it does not seem to do well being torn up by wave action and outboards in the open lake. So you jet skiers, do something positive for a change and rip em up! I don't think the stuff will hold up more than a few months in the open lower end of the lake.


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## firedog4$ (Aug 24, 2004)

Don't get any wise ideas about grass carp. I think nature will take care of its self. Its much more exciting when Gods hand is in play. You knew that anyway. Lots of room to ponder the outcome. Sunbeam and SS are the great minds of livingston anyway, both of you rank high in my books. Green to both of ya.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Don't even say G**** carp and Livingston in the same sentence. Hope that the end results of the plant invasion will be at worse only neutral. If there are large amounts in the water at the spring warm up it could rob oxygen as it decays.
Gobs of it on the bottom will raise havoc with the trollers.

In the mean time just keep a sharp eye out for those oak and pine sinkers and deadheads.


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## A Draper (Aug 14, 2007)

Guys, the hyacinth is bad stuff. It will freeze back some, but it won't die and it will explode when it warms up. Hopefully with it floating aroundl like it is, a good frost will get most of it. This past summer on Toledo bend, it clogged all the lauches on the north end of the lake. We couldn't power our outboards through it. It's been known to stop air boats. A couple summers ago during a dry period, it completely blanketed the river well above the main lake.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm certainly not an expert on hyacinth...but was thinking this big rain event, if followed by a good hard freeze could actually be a plus for keeping it in check on the lake. The free floating stuff can't survive indefinitely in deep water and is very susceptable to a freeze in its current state. 

It is bad stuff...but there is actually worse stuff...Giant Salvina...out there on other area lakes. 

I try to look at the bright side...and right now there are more LMB than I have seen in Livingston in many years...actually caught a limit yesterday, all released. There is also some really great crappie action going on and the whites will soon be stacked up in the creeks. If the stripers haven't been flushed out and don't get poached out, the future is very bright for the Lake. It is a tremendous resource and I expect/hope it will stay that way.


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## bueyescowboy (Apr 10, 2005)

hey SS jetski'ers won't get around that stuff....suck some of that up in a jet ski and you ve had a bad day.
when out friday night and did really good catfishing....jugs where boucing all over the place and couldn't keep the shad on them.
it looks like the stuff is breaking up some.....hate the be where the next big wind blows....
maybe tra will spray the stuff before summer.....it sure needs to cleared out some.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

The stuff appears to be fading fast from my limited observation. I went back today to look for the stripers that were schooling yesterday in Beacon's bay. I did see one school get up but it went down before I could get all of my catfish gear in and get to them.
The bay did not look as good as yesterday, the wind was about 2 as hard, but it still looks better than the main lake.
I say limited observation because we have had 2 days of NNE wind that could have blown most of it to the West side and I have not been West of about mid-lake in a 3 days. Anybody over on that side still seeing the huge mats of it?


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Nothing on a Hyacinth plant sinks. Alive, dead or playing possum. Each leaf has it's own life preserver. Even the stem will float when detached from the plant.
It evenually will ride the wind until it is rafted up on a windward shore.
I can not see it becoming a major hazard to navigation. Not near as bad as the hundreds of logs and trees in the lake.
I'm not going to worry about the stuff until late March. If is blocking my favorite shad running, 50 blues a day, bulkhead then I will be yowling like scalded cat.

MDL, don't be bragging on those LMB. They are comimg back due to the lack of pressure. First thing you know the creeks and coves will be full of those skinny boats with stand up seats and engines the size of VW's. You know the ones that like to run by you at mach 2.5. LOL <G>


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

The bulkheads are what really limit the LMB fishing on the lake, no skinny water for them to grow up in. 
I am still wondering about the huge mats of hyacinths, has anyone on the West side seen them in the last couple of days? they were huge 4 days ago and I watched a pontoon boat try to motor through them with little luck. The hyacinth I am seeing now is brown and dying off. I do see on the sonar a big thick layer of stuff on the bottom , about 5' thick. I think it is dead hyacinth.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Sunbeam said:


> MDL, don't be bragging on those LMB. They are comimg back due to the lack of pressure. First thing you know the creeks and coves will be full of those skinny boats with stand up seats and engines the size of VW's. You know the ones that like to run by you at mach 2.5. LOL <G>


ROTFLMAO....that was funny and dangerous to my keyboard to read while drinking an adult beverage. :rotfl:

I agree with you on the fishing pressure....but another factor I believe is practicing catch and release. Conservation. I used to fish for LMB often out of Big John's marina back in the late 70's. The LMB fishing in Kickapoo was really outstanding back then as you probably remember. Several guides were making some good money and making a lot of customers happy.....but catch and keep and fishing pressure I think contributed to its demise. So, we'll just keep quiet about that fishing but between you and me, it is downright encouraging to see the LMB numbers that are out there in the creeks now.

I was way up Kickapoo Monday and just about got swamped in my old boat by a big lumbering Pontoon boat. Unbelievable wake that thing threw out and the guy driving it never slowed down..either going or returning. Doubt he was LMB fishinghwell:

Back on topic, and still looking for the bright side....is it possible that rain events like we just experienced actually help protect Livingston from being taken over by Hydrilla?

Also, as mentioned earlier, there is a much greater threat out there that has been reported on some of our lakes.....giant salvina. Its just a matter of time before it hits Livingston...but again, the big flushing rain events that cause us problems with retaining stripers in the main lake, may very well offer some protection against this weed.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

The below was snipped from a long wikipedia page. Just one of many examples around the world of the hyacinth problem.
A micro example is the nice little pond next to the Whatabuger in Livinstom. It was great source of live bait until some one decided it needed some pretty blue water lilies. Now you can't see the water.

Water hyacinth in Lake Victoria, Africa
 
Hyacinth-choked lakeshore at Ndere Island, Lake Victoria, Kenya

Botanists and gardeners carry plants with them in their travels, and experts suspect that this is how the water hyacinth came to West Africa in the 1980s. Its flowers are beautiful; it was probably brought over as an ornamental for garden ponds (United Nations News, 2000[1]). The consensus is that Water Hyacinth entered Lake Victoria from Rwanda via the river Kagera (Ambrose 1997[2]). The exact time and place of introduction has been debated, but the plant is native to South America, and therefore reached Lake Victoria due to human activity. It has spread prolifically, due to lack of natural enemies, an abundance of space, agreeable temperature conditions, and abundant nutrients (Opande et al., 2004[3]). It increased rapidly between 1992-1998, was greatly reduced by 2001, and has since resurged to a lesser degree. Management techniques include (hyacinth-eating) insect controls and manual beach cleanup efforts (Kateregga/Sterner 2007[4]). A water hyacinth infestation is seldom totally eradicated. Instead, it is a situation that must be continually managed (LVEMP, 2004[5] ) (United Nations News, 2000[6])).
Water Hyacinth affects the Lake Victorian population in many negative ways. There are economic impacts when the weed blocks boat access. The effects on transportation and fishing are immediately felt. Where the weed is prolific, there is a general increase in several diseases, as the weed creates excellent breeding areas for mosquitoes and other insects. There are increased incidents of skin rash, cough, malaria, encephalitis, bilharzias, gastro intestinal disorders, and schistosomiasis. Water hyacinth also interferes with water treatment, irrigation, and water supply (Opande et al., 2004[3])). It can smother aquatic life by deoxygenating the water, and it reduces nutrients for young fish in sheltered bays. It has blocked supply intakes for the hydroelectric plant, interrupting electrical power for entire cities. The weed also interrupts local subsistence fishing, blocking access to the beaches


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## A Draper (Aug 14, 2007)

Sunbeam, you don't have to go to Kenya to see almost that exact same photo. I'm hoping th same flushing has occurred on Toledo Bend and has freed up my duck hunting spots. Giant salvina is also a problem there. Put the two together and you have a mess. The hyacinth pushes into the salvina at the front of the boat. Soon you have a 500 lb plug of vegetation and your not moving. The worst salvina I've seen though is Center City Lake, again a duck hunting spot. Last year if I had snow shoes I think I could have walked across it.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

This is not sounding good. I remember when i duck hunted the jungle on Livingston, about 30 years ago, and there were plenty of ducks in the water hyacinth, and plenty of hyacinth. Was it sprayed to reduced it then, or did it die out on it's on?


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## A Draper (Aug 14, 2007)

I didn't want to just sound all doom and gloom. So I did a little bit of research. Check this out www.*trinityra.org*/PDF_files/Dec 2007-Jan 2008.pdf. Apparently there has been a spraying program in effect for a while. Some Hyacinth been in the lake since the 70's. I supposed TRA could just expand the spraying.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

shadslinger said:


> This is not sounding good. I remember when i duck hunted the jungle on Livingston, about 30 years ago, and there were plenty of ducks in the water hyacinth, and plenty of hyacinth. Was it sprayed to reduced it then, or did it die out on it's on?


TRA and TP&W both had big barge mounted spray rigs. They refueled at Hank's when I was there. For two years there was a sort of a combine machine on a barge that reaped the stuff and it was dumped on shore over on the Waterwood bank. All of this was in 1970 to 1972. I left the lake in early 1973 so can't say how long it continued. I think the jungle rotted off and most fell which opened the area to better control efforts.

The cold weather (below freezing) is its only enemy. It dies back and goes dormant until spring. It comes back with a vengeance.

A bright side, all the sloughs, creeks and coves from Harmon to 190 high bridge should be fairly open now. We know where the Hyacinth and other floating trash is as of now.
We have about a good week of southernly winds starting Friday. 
TRA started reducing the flow at 2PM today. It should be down to 12000 cfs by this time next week. So we will get a good opportunity to see how it reacts in open water with out a strong current.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

I just returned from a trip to the Camilla pharmacy and took a detour to the over look by Browder's. I could not see any mats of it anywhere, it was clear as far as I could see in any direction, where less than a week ago the entire lower end was covered.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

There's always a bright side...the creeks are really getting good now. Some terrific fishing and should just get better and better the next days/weeks. Maybe this big flushing is helping in the creeks....best crappie action I've experienced on Livingston. 

A Draper, where is Center City Lake? Salvina is known to litterally close down a water body and suck it dry. Snow shoes won't be required...you'll be able to walk across in boots if left untreated.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

MDLRK the creeks on Livingston are beautiful, and always a pleasure to spend the day in. Lot's of wildlife and when they are right, awesome crappie/catfish fishing. Those were pretty good fish you caught today. The creeks got a really good flush this fall.


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## A Draper (Aug 14, 2007)

Meadowlark, Center City Lake is about 4 miles south of Center, Tx. It's a small shallow lake used as a water supply for the City of Center and used to be a great duck hunting spot accessible by canoe. It was basically clear of salvina then. Last year it was completed choked with the stuff but there were signs saying they had put the carp in. 

One thing I've noticed is the south end of all these lakes doesn't have the vegetation as bad. I don't think it likes deep water.

It's going to be real challenge to combat the salvina in the future. The current plans for water supply to the metroplex calls for new lakes and interbasin transfers from Toledo bend. If you transfer that much water from one lake to another how do you keep from moving the plant as well? Then if you pump to DFW how do you keep it from working is way through out the drainage basin? In know the Texas Water Development Board is spending millions studying the problem.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Yes, it is a matter of when not if. Interesting about the grass carp...I had seen some research that was kind of negative on them being able to control Salvina. They eat hyacinth like I eat ice cream....but some indication they may not be able to control Salvina. 

Speaking of grass carp....and some earlier posts indicate there are some strong opinions on them...they have been given a bad rap because humans have misused them. People overstocked Conroe and other lakes. Reports I have seen indicate they stocked 40 per acre, an absolutely mind boggling number.

For example, I stock one to two per acre in ponds for weed control..."experts" recommend 15 to 20 per acre (experts that also just happen to be selling grass carp). I can only imagine the damage they would cause at 40 per acre.

It isn't the fish's fault...its the humans fault. The fish simply does what it is programmed to do....and properly stocked the grass carp does a marvelous job. 

As we all know, chemicals have unintended consequences...I prefer a smart natural solution any day over use of chemicals. I'd actually rather have the weeds than the chemicals in our drinking water. My 2 cents worth.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

I fished on the South end today and it looks much better, the big mats have broken up and now there are some long strings of hyacinth instead of acres, but still a lot of drifting logs to watch out for.
I found a better bite today, maybe because the water is starting to clear somewhat.


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