# Ticket for shooting a buck under 13 inches



## ROBOWADER (May 22, 2004)

has anyone ever gotten a ticket for this and what was the story/cost????

We have 2 new guys on our lease this year and I hope they can tell the difference.....They are "Rookie hunters" in my opinion.

Thanks


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

take a tape measure and hold it up to a deer mount for them

have them look at the ears vs rack spread

deer ears vary, but most racks are legal outside the ears unless the deer are really young


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## Auer Power (Jun 16, 2009)

I've passed up ALOT of deer over the past few years that we're questionable.
2 years ago, end of season, I was forced to shoot one exactly 13".. WHEW!
And last year, last hunt of the season, shot a 13.25". WHEW again!

I'm scared to shoot anyting close unless it's the last day.


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

Tell them when in doubt let it walk a legal deer is a obvious good size no doubt deer .


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## ROBOWADER (May 22, 2004)

We have done all of that and showed them shooter and non-shooter buck on the cameras.

I was just curious what the ticket would cost......


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Haven't heard what the fines are but there are two; the fine for shooting a buck under 13" and the cost of the animal that you reimburse the state for. I don't know what the restitution fine is.

TH


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## wacky-worm (Mar 10, 2008)

Someone on my lease shot a 12" this past week. He was told it would be $140 (Polk County) for the ticket. He was fined $200 by our lease. Be sure to tell them not to judge the 13" from behind.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Auer Power said:


> I've passed up ALOT of deer over the past few years that we're questionable.
> 2 years ago, end of season, I was forced to shoot one exactly 13".. WHEW!
> And last year, last hunt of the season, shot a 13.25". WHEW again!
> 
> I'm scared to shoot anyting close unless it's the last day.


Why would the last day change anything?

I would tell the newbies not to shoot anything less than 15".... that way they have some breathing room. We all get excited when a buck steps out.

If its so close to 13 that you are worried, then you shouldnt pull the trigger.

An array of pictures will also help them out. Its also important to note angles....


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

1500$ give or take....WW


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## Bukmstr (Nov 12, 2004)

wet dreams said:


> 1500$ give or take....WW


Agreed at least this amount. The restitution would be the higher of the two fines IMO...


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## jhen (Mar 25, 2011)

It may just be me........ But when a shooter walks out there is no doubt. If you need to think about it you probably dont need to shoot it. Just my .02 cents


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## ROBOWADER (May 22, 2004)

*I agree*



jhen said:


> It may just be me........ But when a shooter walks out there is no doubt. If you need to think about it you probably dont need to shoot it. Just my .02 cents


However, this thread was meant to talk about fines and tickets.

I have never know anyone that has gotten a ticket for shooter an undersized deer................


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## Sportsdoc (May 22, 2009)

200+ for the ticket and the restitution is decided by a biologist report on the quality/health of the animal. Not cheap and have heard many stories about hunters getting busted. Talk to one game warden and they busted 7 since opening day. 

The way I have learned to judge bucks is by taking a wooden ruler and studying what 6 inches is. If you can judge something which is 6ins at 100 yards you can judge anything. Learn to measure everything in your head and then take a tape over and measure it. Practice practice practice.


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

Gonna depend on the judge. My dad shot a 10 pt. opening weekend that 4 or 5 of us on the lease had him guessed at 15 inside and when he hit the ground he was 13 1/4. And we are all lifetime hunters and we were all wrong, the ears were smaller than normal and he just looked bigger, my Dad still can't believe it, so you may consider yourself an expert like I did, but there are times when an honest mistake can happen, we got a guy leading the Shiner contest who shot a 166 buck and all they could get out of it was 13 exactly, be hell to shoot a 166 and it turn up 1/4 short.


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

I have been der hunting for decades. Opening week I shot a 13-1/8" that 2 of us watched and would swear it was about 15" to 16". Got to looking at the ears and they seem small. This was on public land. Wonder how many smaller one get shot and left in the woods??


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## I Fall In (Sep 18, 2011)

Co-worker got popped this weekend said it was 360.00 and whatever the state charges him. He knew it was too small .Need to charge him double.:headknock


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

I'll go out on a limb here and say those that got "pop'd" shot small 6 or 8pt deer that had 10" spreads. I don't think a warden would even pick up a tape if someone had a obviously older deer with good mass and 10" G2's and 20+" main beams if it looked like it was under 13".


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

GW checks the local processing spots around here pretty frequently. Last year he found 2 undersize bucks hanging in the cooler (the cooler is open 24/7 - you just sign the log when you drop off your deer). I heard from from a pretty reliable source that they were given $200 fines & $2500 restitution. 

Pretty stupid on the hunter's part to hang an illegal deer in the cooler for processing IMO. Hope they learned their lessons.


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## Josh5 (Jun 27, 2007)

$2500 restitution seems rediculously high. just sayin'


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## saltwatersensations (Aug 30, 2004)

Josh5 said:


> $2500 restitution seems rediculously high. just sayin'


I think not. I bet if you shoot one and pay that fine you wont do it a 2nd time. Lesson learned IMO. I have passed on several already that were questionable. Either way its not worth the risk. If you have to really debate it when the deer walks out you better let it walk off.


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## RAYSOR (Apr 26, 2007)

I can't believe folks would shoot a 13 inch buck in the first place, how will y'all ever have decent bucks if you keep on wacking them.


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

Because around these parts, alot of mature deer don't get very wide, they get thick and tall but never wide, that would be why.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

SSST said:


> Because around these parts, alot of mature deer don't get very wide, they get thick and tall but never wide, that would be why.


Thats not really true.... Only 5% of mature deer are 13" or less (based on TPWD studies).

To the topic at hand.... I think with does, they determine restitution by how many offspring that animal would produce in the future.... I would be interested to know how they incorporate that with male specimans....


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Gentleman I know was charged $847.00 restitution. GW did not confiscate, but wrote citation. He received "invoice" in mail a few weeks later. That is aside to $150 for fine.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

spurgersalty said:


> Gentleman I know was charged $847.00 restitution. GW did not confiscate, but wrote citation. He received "invoice" in mail a few weeks later. That is aside to $150 for fine.


This is most probab on the low end, its the invoice that comes in the mail from TPW that makes you REALLY wish you would have passed, the restitution is somewhat set, the fine is up to the JP who could take a sugestion from the warden...good or bad. I know of 3 that have been caught, total fines were from 1150 in Tyler Co and a 'homeboy' to 1500 in Sabine County who was a Hardin Co resident,...WW


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## dragginfool (Sep 12, 2009)

I had to pay restitution one time and it was $160.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

RAYSOR said:


> I can't believe folks would shoot a 13 inch buck in the first place, how will y'all ever have decent bucks if you keep on wacking them.


 My ex-BIL won Muy Grande in the early 60's with a buck that was just under 13". I know it's rare to see such deer, but they are out there. Kind of my point in my earlier post. How would you like getting a fine for buck that scored in the mid 170's just because is was under 13"!


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## ROBOWADER (May 22, 2004)

*Horns*

This deer was shot opening weekend and it was 16 1/8 inside spread. Guy who shot said he knew as soon as it walked out that it was legal.

I have also let several go that might have been 13 but just decided that it was not worth it.

2nd picture is the horn pole my buddy puts all his horns on since his wife wont let him bring them home.

It seems the mentality of where I hunt is that if the deer is 13 or greater it gets shot........


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

For what it's worth:

Texas Administrative Code

TITLE 31 NATURAL RESOURCES AND CONSERVATION
PART 2 TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT
CHAPTER 69 RESOURCE PROTECTION
SUBCHAPTER B FISH AND WILDLIFE VALUES
RULE §69.22 Wildlife--Recovery Values

(a) Each species of bird, reptile, amphibian, or animal shall be assigned a score of 0-3 for each of eight scoring criteria. The sum of the scores for the eight criteria (subsection (b) of this section) shall be multiplied by a weighting factor (subsection (c) of this section), and the resulting adjusted criteria score is compared to the monetary scale (subsection (d) of this section) to obtain a monetary value.

(b) For scoring criteria listed in paragraphs (1)-(8) of this subsection, a species which is not sought at all shall be scored as 0, while a highly sought species shall be scored 3.

(1) Recreation. The extent to which a species is actively sought by users with wildlife interests. Scoring considers both harvest and nonharvest use of a species.

(2) Aesthetic. The social value of wildlife species. These values represent wildlife species' beauty or unique natural history. Aesthetic values for these species exist whether or not a person ever would encounter one in its natural habitat.

(3) Educational. The educational value of a species arising from, for example, published materials and other audio-visual media about the species, displays in zoos, or the relative frequency with which the species is used to exemplify important curricula principles.

(4) Scarcity. The relative population of a species within the range of its habitat, from abundant to scarce.

(5) Environmental Tolerance. The ability of a species to tolerate normal changes in climate, topography, water regimes or other ecological factors which may limit range and population.

(6) Economics. The direct or indirect economic benefit attributable to the species as a result of recreational or legal transactions.

(7) Recruitment. Reproductive and survival potential of a species as it relates to the capability for replacement of its population following decrease or loss.

(8) Ecological role. A species' relationships with other life forms--and the species contribution to a healthful and stable balance of nature. Widely-consumed forage species score high, as do predators which control prey species populations. Forage species that are not widely consumed score low, as do predators which contribute little to regulation of prey populations.

(c) The individual scores for the criteria are summed to derive a total criteria score. The total criteria score is multiplied by a weighting factor which adjusts the summed criteria score for variance in public demand and/or perception of value for a species. The weighting factor relates the overall demand for a species to its existing supply and to future opportunity for public use. The weighting factors are:

(1) 1.0--Abundant. No additional public demand or perception of value exists beyond that reflected by the eight criteria in subsection (b) of this section;

(2) 1.1--Frequent. Minor disparity exists between resource availability and public interest and the public demand fluctuates periodically around an equilibrium point;

(3) 1.3--Rare. Substantial disparity exists between available supply and identified public interest in species that are subject to ongoing management programs;

(4) 1.5--Scarce. The species populations are never expected to meet identified demands or needs, or management programs for a limited species are not fully developed with respect to planned recreational opportunity and economic contribution.

(d) The total criteria score multiplied by the weighting factor in subsections (a)-(c) of this section, provides an adjusted criteria score and corresponding recovery value for each species.

Adjusted Criteria

Score Range


Monetary Value

1 - 5.9 = $5.00

6 - 8.9 = $13.50

9 - 10.9 = $26.00

11 - 12.9 = $59.50

13 - 14.9 = $105.50

15 - 16.9 = $273.50

17 - 18.9 = $881.50

19 - 20.9 = $1,929.50

21 - 23.9 = $4,780.50

24 - 36.9 = $11,907.50
Quote:
Texas Administrative Code


TITLE 31 NATURAL RESOURCES AND CONSERVATION
PART 2 TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT
CHAPTER 69 RESOURCE PROTECTION
SUBCHAPTER B FISH AND WILDLIFE VALUES
RULE §69.30 Trophy Wildlife Species

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a) The recovery value for individual white-tailed or mule deer, pronghorn antelope, and bighorn sheep shall be derived from the gross Boone and Crockett score of the horns or antlers plus the value derived for wildlife species in §69.22 of this title (relating to Wildlife--Recovery Values), using the following formulae:

(1) White-tailed deer--The formula for white-tailed deer shall be applied to all individuals whose gross score exceeds 100 Boone and Crockett inches. The formula shall be: Recovery Value = ((gross score - 100) 2 x $1.65) plus the value derived in §69.22 of this title.

(2) Mule deer--The formula for mule deer shall be applied to all individuals whose gross score exceeds 110 Boone and Crockett inches. The formula shall be: Recovery Value = ((gross score - 110) 2 x $1.00) plus the value derived in §69.22 of this title.

(3) Pronghorn antelope--The formula for pronghorn antelope shall be applied to all individuals whose gross score exceeds 40 Boone and Crockett inches. The formula shall be: Recovery Value = ((gross score - 40)2 x $2.00) plus the value derived in §69.22 of this title.

(4) Bighorn sheep--The formula for bighorn sheep shall be applied to all individuals whose gross score exceeds 100 Boone and Crockett inches. The formula shall be: Recovery Value = ((gross score - 100) 2 x $11.70) plus the value derived in §69.22 of this title.

(b) The measurement procedure for obtaining the Boone and Crockett gross score shall follow: Nesbitt, W.H. and P.L. Wright. 1985. Measuring and Scoring North American Big Game Trophies. Boone and Crockett Club. 176 pp.


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## Auer Power (Jun 16, 2009)

justinsfa said:


> Why would the last day change anything?


A freezer with NO meat in it makes a man do crazy things, especially on the last day.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Auer Power said:


> A freezer with NO meat in it makes a man do crazy things, especially on the last day.


Shoot does. Problem solved.


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

And if you hunt in a county where you don't have that option?


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

You don't belong to a Wildlife Management Association (there are 6 in Lavaca County)??? To join the one for your area, fill out the Enrollment Form, pay your $20 for annual dues, complete your survey and you'll be issued doe permits. If you have any questions, contact your biologist (Jon Hayes @ 361/798-2625).


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

I know alot of you guys hunt in areas of the State where you can kill does for meat, I hunted the hill country for 20 years, so I know all about it. In Lavaca and the surrounding counties the landowner has to get doe permits in order to kill does, excluding bow hunting. Now if your landowner doesn't get any, well tuff ****! That's where you get guys stretching it by season's end, they just want some meat for their time and money. Deer around Lavaca Co just don't get very wide, we have taken 3 bucks off our place this year, 10 pt that scored 124 (4 1/2, 13 1/4 spread), 10 pt scored 136 (4 1/2, 13 1/8 spread), and a 5 1/2 yr old 11pt (138) with a whopping 15 in spread. I'm sure only 5% of mature deer are less than 13" across the whole state, but around here it would be higher.


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

w_r_ranch said:


> You don't belong to a Wildlife Management Association (there are 6 in Lavaca County)??? To join the one for your area, fill out the Enrollment Form, pay your $20 for annual dues, complete your survey and you'll be issued doe permits. If you have any questions, contact your biologist (Jon Hayes @ 361/798-2625).


Yes we do, have plenty of permits, just talking about the guys who don't, i work with a couple of guys that have landowners that won't do it for them.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Wow, I find it amazing that your co-workers are still on the property given that the landowner is unwilling to accommodate his hunters...


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## Auer Power (Jun 16, 2009)

justinsfa said:


> Shoot does. Problem solved.


I won't shoot a doe with fawns. 99% of our doe have fawns. I've only seen one this year. We can only shoot them up til Thanksgiving.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Auer Power said:


> I won't shoot a doe with fawns. 99% of our doe have fawns. I've only seen one this year. We can only shoot them up til Thanksgiving.


The fawns are weaned well before they are 6 months old. They will survive if a predator doesnt get them.

If you dont shoot does because they have fawns.... well, they give birth every year, so basically, you would never shoot any does.

Does have fawns... its what they do...

And if your landowner wont do the little work thats necessary to get doe permits, then I wouldnt be throwing money at him.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

justinsfa said:


> And if your landowner wont do the little work thats necessary to get doe permits, then I wouldnt be throwing money at him.


Heck, the lessees can fill out the enrollment form & pay the dues (which is only fair), the land owner only has to sign it and the tags will be issued to whomsoever name is on the form.

I totally agree, if the landowner won't sign at that point, they certainly wouldn't be seeing anymore $$$ from anyone I know of...


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## saltwatersensations (Aug 30, 2004)

I shoot does with fawns. As long as they dont have spots they are probably weaned anyway. Momma will shoo them off when its time to breed anyway.


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## BANGaRANG (Aug 23, 2009)

I hunt on a LAMP lease. We get 2 LAMP doe permits every season. I hunt for fun and meat. I kill does with 4 legs. The 3-legged ones taste funny!


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## IceColdTexan (Jun 3, 2009)

I work with two guys who each shot a deer under 13 inches this year. They both thought they were at least 15" when looking through scope. So to make sure they didn't get a ticket they dragged them into the woods and left them for the coyotes.


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

I've got to somewhat agree with Auer Power...I'm sure they'll be fine, but I hesitate to shoot does with small (late) fawns. If you want to, fine. But I usually don't.

Now, when the fawn's almost as big as momma? well...that's different.


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## Zereaux (Jul 18, 2006)

IceColdTexan said:


> I work with two guys who each shot a deer under 13 inches this year. They both thought they were at least 15" when looking through scope. So to make sure they didn't get a ticket they dragged them into the woods and left them for the coyotes.


Wow...I hope they decide to take up golf or something.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

IceColdTexan said:


> I work with two guys who each shot a deer under 13 inches this year. They both thought they were at least 15" when looking through scope. So to make sure they didn't get a ticket they dragged them into the woods and left them for the coyotes.


You gotta be kidding us....


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## saltwatersensations (Aug 30, 2004)

IceColdTexan said:


> I work with two guys who each shot a deer under 13 inches this year. They both thought they were at least 15" when looking through scope. So to make sure they didn't get a ticket they dragged them into the woods and left them for the coyotes.


Someone should have drug them two idiots into the woods. They should have manned up.:hairout:


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## Huntnfish (Apr 20, 2005)

Just tell the deer to hold still and go measure it before you shoot.......


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## saltwatersensations (Aug 30, 2004)

Its all about being a responsible hunter. The law is the law and any respectable hunter will follow it whether or not they agree. If you have to question the deer, not worth the risk. If you mistakingly shoot one under 13" man up if you get a ticket and pay for it. If you drag it off and waste it because you screwed up, you oughta have you're arse whipped and get an additional ticket for wasting game.


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## StinkBait (May 31, 2004)

Good friend is a game warden, best thing to do if you shoot one under 13" is call the warden and let him know. Mostly likely he will take the head as evidence and leave you the meat. Those who think I am stupid, just remember, the warden will be in a little better mood when he pulls out that ticket book if you call him vs. him coming into camp and finding it himself. If you can afford a deer lease, gas and corn these days you can afford your fine.


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

StinkBait said:


> Good friend is a game warden, best thing to do if you shoot one under 13" is call the warden and let him know. Mostly likely he will take the head as evidence and leave you the meat. Those who think I am stupid, just remember, the warden will be in a little better mood when he pulls out that ticket book if you call him vs. him coming into camp and finding it himself. If you can afford a deer lease, gas and corn these days you can afford your fine.


You nailed it, call the GW and tell him you shot one and it's not quite wide enough, I can promise you it'll be alot more affordable than him finding it! I know a guy who killed one 12 3/4, unlike most he called the GW and he came out and measured it, told him he appreciates him calling him, he knows it was an honest mistake, he'll let him go this time, basically just learn from your mistake. Jeez, if nothing else take your chances and haul butt home, just don't leave the meat in the woods!


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

GWs arent out to get everybody.... I figure most would be lenient on folks who might have messed up and shot a 12.75" deer.... as long as the shooter didnt try to hide it.

But anything under that, you are SOL. The rule was put into place to keep people from shooting borderline deer as well. If in doubt, let em go. Its not the end of the world if you go home with an empty ice chest. Everyone knows that its cheaper to fill a chest with store bought meat than the $10/lb deer meat that you pay through leases, fuel, corn, gear, etc...


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## Shootin' Sam (Jul 25, 2008)

*Restitution Fees*



Josh5 said:


> $2500 restitution seems rediculously high. just sayin'


If anyone wants to know how restitution works, here you go. A doe or buck that scores under 100pts on B/C scale is $745 dollars. When a buck scores over 100 pts on B/C then TPWD uses a formula that increases the value of the buck.


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