# Serious Deer Camp Violation



## Hookem2012 (Feb 24, 2012)

OK 2Cool Think Tank, I have to run this past you. Please let me know your thoughts and what should be done.
This is a very serious matter, and will be taken seriously.
We are a group of 6 hunters who have hunted together for many years. We are friends and the violator is my brother in law.
We have a great set of rules that everyone must follow.
Last Saturday morning, 3 of us were inside of the Camp house cooking breakfast. One of the members came into camp at about 1030 am and walked past the Cabin towards a camper (which cannot be seen from the cabin due to a storage shed in between) Then we hear a rifle shot!! We either think that he shot a deer behind the camp, or had an accidental discharge. Well after we find him in the camper and alive, we find that he had an accidental discharge inside of the camper making a new air vent in the side of the camper.
He was very upset with himself, and very apologetic. Luckily no one was hurt, and thankfully we did not have our young children at camp with us this weekend.
What do yall think should be done? Nevermind that he is my BIL, that does not matter.


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## deerslayer64d (Aug 20, 2006)

What are the rules on loaded guns in camp ?


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## rubberducky (Mar 19, 2010)

There are rules about having a loaded gun in camp for this reason. At the same time it was an accident. Sometimes the punishment is inflicted by the violator him self. So unless this is an on going problem I would cut him lose! If he is a trusted member that made a mistake this one time ask Jim not to come back this season and let it go.
James


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk because Reeltime told me to
Rrrrrrrwed


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## misbhavn (Nov 19, 2010)

I would say it depends on the rules. It was careless and should not have happened, but sometimes things do happen.


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## The Last Mango (Jan 31, 2010)

No loaded guns in camp, Safety First


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## BIG PAPPA (Apr 1, 2008)

*WOW*

Ramrod calls for a Vote on what to do.


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## Rubberback (Sep 9, 2008)

You said you have rules. What's the rule on when you load your guns? I would have a gun cabinet & after each hunt thats where all members put their guns unloaded of course. 
It is a very serious concern but it does happen. Have the bil fixes the camper & all you can do is be more careful.
I always tell everyone that a gun is always loaded. Glad no one was hurt.
I had a young man blow a hole through the floor board of my truck. He got his ----- chewed out & his father had my truck repaired.
Guns are always loaded.


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## 9121SS (Jun 28, 2009)

# 1 rule : No loaded guns in camp! If this is not a rule at your camp, it should be.
Like was said, if this is a first time thing and he is a trusted hunter then maybe let it go with a strong warning.


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## Slightly Dangerous (May 21, 2004)

I would think that your BIL will now be the most vocal and trustworthy member of the lease when it comes to loaded guns in camp. Just let it be and if any member asks you just tell them it was sorted out.


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## Hal Westberry (Apr 18, 2011)

*Charged*

He would be the new safety guy at camp. 
Jobs include
insure all stands are maintained (wasp, and other critters)
Gun checks after each hunt. Some might need cleaning
Proper and safe corn introduction in to feeders
got the drift?

HHW


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## txrdkng (Jan 9, 2013)

Hookem2012 said:


> OK 2Cool Think Tank, I have to run this past you. Please let me know your thoughts and what should be done.
> This is a very serious matter, and will be taken seriously.
> We are a group of 6 hunters who have hunted together for many years. We are friends and the violator is my brother in law.
> We have a great set of rules that everyone must follow.
> ...


From your post you have established that is was an accident. You did not post anything else about the accident. My mantra is "Safety First, period". However, I wasn't there and don't know the facts. I would have talked to the hunter and established what happened.

Maybe a shell got lodged in the chamber and he went away from the crowd, under good light, with the proper tools and tried to extract it when something went terribly wrong.

Maybe he was careless, left one in the chamber, sloppily leaned the rifle against something and it slipped and fell.

If he broke a rule in a situation that was under his control (such as "No loaded firearms in camp" and he brought in a loaded firearm) then the "punishment" needs to be applied. Has this been predetermined? Example, if you break rules, "this" happens? If not, the five of you need to determine what needs to be done.

On my ranch, if this was a bonehead move (forgot to unload, pulled the trigger) I would look at the person's history...stand up guy, good hunter, responsible man etc. or a lazy, shoots what walks out first, big talker, etc. If its the former, he probably gets a good taking to. If its the latter, its adios (former) amigo.


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## Fishin' Soldier (Dec 25, 2007)

Hookem2012 said:


> OK 2Cool Think Tank, I have to run this past you. Please let me know your thoughts and what should be done.
> This is a very serious matter, and will be taken seriously.
> We are a group of 6 hunters who have hunted together for many years. We are friends and the violator is my brother in law.
> We have a great set of rules that everyone must follow.
> ...


The Military changed the term from Accidental Discharge to Negligent Discharge for a reason. You have to figure out what to do on your own.


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## BATWING (May 9, 2008)

Thank God nothing happened and your BIL is safe. A long time good standing member IMO should not be kicked off the lease IMO. Maybe probation if the rules are violated. If other rules have been violated in the past then removal should be considered.

Maybe he should be considered for additional rules for a year or two. EX: He leaves all weapons in his vehicle in case unless in the stand. No handling of weapons in camp.


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## Hookem2012 (Feb 24, 2012)

We have explicit rules that state that there are to be no loaded firearms in camp. Also stated that there will be no horseplay around firearms. Firearms and alcohol do not mix, and will not be tolerated.

My suggestion to our Lease Manager is in the least make him the Camp Safety Officer and gate check everyone in camp everytime hunters return from a hunt.


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## txdukklr (Jun 30, 2013)

I think the question is not what he can do to make it up.

fix the hole is a given

the issue is do you keep him on the lease or not. I say keep him and for a while yall need to check his gun safety. Some folks did not grow up with good gun etiquitee and are self taught. They need folks around them to constantly remind . . . is gun clear, i wanna see your action open, point in safe direction, load and unload at stand.

Example I did not grow up with guns and when i first started hunting I hunted with guys that had. I was upfront to tell them to jump my rear if they saw me violating rules. They did and i subsequently taught my boy.

Him he's much more diligent but thats because since he was 5 i taught him to look for open actions, load and unload at stand, double check guns handed to him even if he saw action cleared.


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## Hookem2012 (Feb 24, 2012)

txrdkng said:


> From your post you have established that is was an accident. You did not post anything else about the accident. My mantra is "Safety First, period". However, I wasn't there and don't know the facts. I would have talked to the hunter and established what happened.
> 
> Maybe a shell got lodged in the chamber and he went away from the crowd, under good light, with the proper tools and tried to extract it when something went terribly wrong.
> 
> ...


 He is a great lease member in good standing. He explained to me that 1st, he forgot to unload the weapon, 2nd (since it was very muddy outside, and he was trying not to get any mud in the camper) he stayed on the steps of the camper and leaned in to place the rifle on the seat of the table. In doing this and reaching and leaning, he had his finger on the trigger. It was definitely a bonehead move. He felt sick to his stomach at the what if's. He is one of the hardest workers on the ranch, will not shoot just anything, and usually brings a picture of a deer to camp to see what everyone else thinks prior to taking the deer.


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## Johnny9 (Sep 7, 2005)

txdukklr said:


> I think the question is not what he can do to make it up.
> 
> fix the hole is a given
> 
> ...


Is your BIL an asset to the group? In other words does he pull his share of work on the lease or is he a loafer? If a worker keep him.


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## txdukklr (Jun 30, 2013)

my point is I could care less if he pays for everything and does all the work.

A safety issue is not worthwhile no matter the work load. I'd rather have a safe loafer who's riding my hard work but I can trust my guests and family around then someone who might kill someone.

My point is this isn't about how he makes up for his mistake. The question is will he do it again . . . . .


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## txrdkng (Jan 9, 2013)

Hookem2012 said:


> He is a great lease member in good standing. He explained to me that 1st, he forgot to unload the weapon, 2nd (since it was very muddy outside, and he was trying not to get any mud in the camper) he stayed on the steps of the camper and leaned in to place the rifle on the seat of the table. In doing this and reaching and leaning, he had his finger on the trigger. It was definitely a bonehead move. He felt sick to his stomach at the what if's. He is one of the hardest workers on the ranch, will not shoot just anything, and usually brings a picture of a deer to camp to see what everyone else thinks prior to taking the deer.


He gets a walk. You've had the "talking to", its not his normal course of behavior and (trust me, I unfortunately know) he feels terrible and will NEVER let that happen again.


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## fishit (Jul 12, 2007)

sounds like he is a good guy and made an honest, but big mistake. if so, then the shot scared him more than any butt chewing would do. very good way to remind everyone how important gun safety is. 

now if he was known to be an arse clown, doesn't care about rules or peoples concerns or drink too much etc.... different story all together, which should be dealt with differently.


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## rattletrap (Sep 9, 2005)

Hal Westberry said:


> He would be the new safety guy at camp.
> Jobs include
> insure all stands are maintained (wasp, and other critters)
> Gun checks after each hunt. Some might need cleaning
> ...


x 2


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## txdukklr (Jun 30, 2013)

txrdkng said:


> He gets a walk. You've had the "talking to", its not his normal course of behavior and (trust me, I unfortunately know) he feels terrible and will NEVER let that happen again.





fi**** said:


> sounds like he is a good guy and made an honest, but big mistake. if so, then the shot scared him more than any butt chewing would do. very good way to remind everyone how important gun safety is.
> 
> now if he was known to be an arse clown, doesn't care about rules or peoples concerns or drink too much etc.... different story all together, which should be dealt with differently.


agree i should have said this, I think he stays but yall ride his rear on gun safety.


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## wallhanger (Apr 10, 2009)

Definitely just an accident. Thankfully no one was hurt or killed. Sounds like you either need to modify your rules or reinforce them to read, load guns once in the blind, and unload before leaving. At no other time shall a gun be loaded within such a distance from the camp.


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## dbarham (Aug 13, 2005)

Had this happen at our camp house before by my wife's grandpa he was so traumatized no one had to explain anything to him. He made us all think and we explain tp.the guests to unload before they get outta stand

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Johnny9 (Sep 7, 2005)

If it was I who make the mistake of a gun going off in camp, I would never forget what happened and would be responcible for always checking my gun by unloading whenever I get out of a blind or stand or before I got into a truck, 4wheeler etc. But that's me and I'm responcible for my actions.


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## 2hours2thecoast (May 1, 2006)

I think that everyone on the lease should have an opportunity to speak their mind. With that being said, from the facts you mentioned if I was on the lease I would support him remaining. Sounds like a good asset to the lease. From what you said, I would wager that he will be the most conscientious person you could possibly have regarding gun safety for the next 2 to 3 decades. 

Please realize that I would give him a ration of $h!+ every chance I could about it but would definately not kick him off. I do not think anything you could do to him would be worse than what he is putting himself through.


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## Texas Jeweler (Nov 6, 2007)

*AD!*

This is a case violation. he must pay.

One case of the beverages ya'll select, can be mised of Jack, Crown Chivas or other stuff ya'll deem worthy. For me, Maker's Mark or Woodford Reserve.

Fix the hole and have to be camp clean up for the remainder of season. This includes washing dishes.

No excpetions, bone head. :texasflag


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## GSMAN (May 22, 2004)

I would say that it was an accident. However, with a round in the chamber why was the safety off? That is a big time issue for me. It's easy to chunk stones at a fella but at a minimum I would say that he has used up his one pass and any other safety infractions are grounds for getting kicked off the lease. This is a tough one. Good luck!


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## dabossgonzo (Mar 5, 2010)

*pass*

"It was definitely a bonehead move. He felt sick to his stomach at the what if's. He is one of the hardest workers on the ranch, will not shoot just anything, and usually brings a picture of a deer to camp to see what everyone else thinks prior to taking the deer."

He is probably beating himself up worse than any thing you could do.... I would speak to him and then let it slide chances are he will never make that bonehead move again. Like somebody else mentioned he will now probably be the safest guy in camp.


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## mr. buck (Jan 11, 2009)

have you considered having him suggest his own punishment? If he's beating himself up as badly as it seems it will probably be punitive and set a dang good precedent in camp for other rules violations.


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## mchildress (Jul 11, 2009)

Sounds like he learned his leason and it will not happen again. Sometimes **** happens and a leason is learned by all.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Guy made a mistake and seemed to be remorseful about doing so. No need to do a bunch of stuff to beat him up over it. There is really only one question... Do you trust him going forward or not? That is what I would base my decision on solely.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> Guy made a mistake and seemed to be remorseful about doing so. No need to do a bunch of stuff to beat him up over it. There is really only one question... Do you trust him going forward or not? That is what I would base my decision on solely.


This.

But remember that an unloaded firearm is the most dangerous of all.

TH


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Accidents happen. it sounds like he is a, for the most part, responsible man and pulls his weight on the lease. There should be a set of rules, WRITTEN and agreed to by all members. Consequences should be laid out and signed off on by all your members. It should then be posted somewhere where all can see it.


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## Brute (Apr 29, 2009)

Sounds like an accident. 

A rule that says no loaded guns in camp is almost useless. Very few intend to leave the gun loaded. 

A rule that says no closed chambers or no bolts in the rifles in camp is much better. You can clearly see what is going on like that. Most shotgun people are use to being strictly enforced. 

I don't like any loaded guns for any reason on a lease unless you are sitting in the blind.


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## Little-bit (Oct 19, 2005)

We all make mistakes. I bet he will never forget this incident and will also be much more careful in the future.


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## Y-Not (Sep 14, 2012)

*Open chamber*

Our lease is very strict about loaded guns in camp. IT DON"T HAPPEN. If a gun is in camp it better have an open bolt, something that can be seen from a long way off. All pistols are treated the same way, Magazines out and chamber open, Period....If your gonna shoot yourself do it outside of camp, I don't like cleaning up blood, and dragging your dead body all the way back home.


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## SharkBait >*)\\\><( (May 16, 2012)

i have seen a few accidental weapon discharges over the years, these things do happen..
saw a guy get his shoulder blown off in south Africa with a soft point 470, from a similar discharge...


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## Hookem2012 (Feb 24, 2012)

270 vs camper..outside of camper looked like a beer can that had been shot with a rifle


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## Brute (Apr 29, 2009)

We use to be able to pick up the neighbors on hand held radios. We heard a shot in their direction. The one guy asked the other what he shot. The guy tried to dodge it a couple times but finally he said he shot a hole in the roof. LoL


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## Y-Not (Sep 14, 2012)

I have a good buddy that had one of the rifles that would go off when you put it off safty to clear the chamber(we didn't know it till this happened) anyway I went to pick him up and he was standing beside the truck and when he put the gun off safty it went off. He was soo tramatized he cried because he could have killed someone. It took me forever to convince him that because of his skills with a rifle and unloading it pointing it the air he did all he could do as far as safty was concerned. The gun never made it back to camp.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Glad the results of the "lesson" were not lethal. I missed out on a great son-in-law because of a accidental shooting in camp. His best friend shot him im the neck with a duck load at point blank range about 10 years ago.

Even before this event I've got one rule when it comes to handling a gun...they are all loaded...even with the mag out...magazine empty...cylinder empty they are all still loaded in my eyes! I've never looked at an unloaded weapon!

The most common accidental discharges are from guys dropping the hammer to release the tension on the firing pin spring. I do it all the time...but there is two ways to do...the plan dry fire (which if there is live round in the chamber...big problem) or you hold the trigger back with the bolt open, once you have the trigger pulled all the way back, slowly close the bolt. It releases the firing pin, but doesn't let it fall with enough force to fire a live round!

Try it with the gun empty...double check...just in case...I've seen a couple low end models that is doesn't work with...three position safety is tricky too...must be in the fire position, just like the two position.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

GSMAN said:


> I would say that it was an accident. However, with a round in the chamber why was the safety off? That is a big time issue for me. It's easy to chunk stones at a fella but at a minimum I would say that he has used up his one pass and any other safety infractions are grounds for getting kicked off the lease. This is a tough one. Good luck!


X2.
I can't help bit be the arse here and say, HE BROKE 3 RULES(mine) IMO!!!! 1-loaded gun in camp. 2-the freaking safety was off!!!!!(w t f) 3-his finger was on the trigger and he had no ->intentions<- of shooting an animal or a target.
He gone, IMO.


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## Longhorn (Jun 22, 2006)

Kick him off! I need a new lease. 



Sounds like he made a big mistake and knows it but sounds a little careless to me.


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## artys_only (Mar 29, 2005)

*Careless*

What to do ? There are not many mistakes when it comes to GUNs. , when I was 13 me and a friend was bird hunting in the state I grew up, I swung on a bird safety off right in front of my friend , never shot . I was so shook up I didn't pick up a gun for the rest of the season . I have seen firearm accidents . A gun is always loaded that's the way to treat them , I guided waterfowl hunting for 15 years from Canada to Mexico , so have seen almost every dumb thing that someone could do with a firearm . It could be your life or someone else close to you that could be killed or hurt next time . Thing like this make you think what and how important gun safety is .. One thing I will say is you get dead and is for a long time !

Watch your BIL as long as he can continue to pass the smell test keep him on the lease . MOHIP


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## snapperlicious (Aug 11, 2009)

Dad gum it really blew a nice hole in the wall!


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## Rwv2055 (Aug 8, 2012)

I have never understood the thinking of a rule that says no loaded guns in camp. I have also never understood when people ask you about a gun "Is it loaded?" Always treat them as if they are always loaded. If someone hands me a gun and I saw them unload it I still check it myself to be sure. If they tell me its unloaded I still check it. If they don't tell me anything I still check it. As for no loaded guns in camp, the only place I go without a loaded gun, is the courthouse. If I am in Wal mart, I have a loaded gun with me. Why would I disarm myself on private property? All guns are always loaded all of the time!!!!!!!!!!! If you can't trust a man with a loaded gun, why would you hunt with him?

Plus, why would you take the gun out of your truck during a hunt? When you take it in to the heated cabin at night, then take it out in to the cold in the morning, you will get condensation on the scope. This effect is much worse in the hot, humid weather in the summer coming from A/C to the heat, but it still happens in the cold. When I used to live in Raymondville, if you took your scope or Binos in at night, it took an hour for them to warm up enough that they would not fog up. 

That being said, I never climb into a stand with the chamber loaded. I always have it loaded on the walk to the stand, but unload it before climbing in to the stand.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Rwv2055 said:


> I have never understood the thinking of a rule that says no loaded guns in camp. I have also never understood when people ask you about a gun "Is it loaded?" Always treat them as if they are always loaded. If someone hands me a gun and I saw them unload it I still check it myself to be sure. If they tell me its unloaded I still check it. If they don't tell me anything I still check it. As for no loaded guns in camp, the only place I go without a loaded gun, is the courthouse. If I am in Wal mart, I have a loaded gun with me. Why would I disarm myself on private property? All guns are always loaded all of the time!!!!!!!!!!! If you can't trust a man with a loaded gun, why would you hunt with him?
> 
> Plus, why would you take the gun out of your truck during a hunt? When you take it in to the heated cabin at night, then take it out in to the cold in the morning, you will get condensation on the scope. This effect is much worse in the hot, humid weather in the summer coming from A/C to the heat, but it still happens in the cold. When I used to live in Raymondville, if you took your scope or Binos in at night, it took an hour for them to warm up enough that they would not fog up.
> 
> That being said, I never climb into a stand with the chamber loaded. I always have it loaded on the walk to the stand, but unload it before climbing in to the stand.


This is pretty much my philosophy. Treat ALL guns as if they are loaded all of the time. I also walk to the stand with a loaded rifle and generally a pistol as well. I always unload the rifle before climbing into the stand, crossing a fence or doing anything other than hunting. BUT, the rifle/guns are always handled as if they are loaded. Keep the muzzle downrange, the bolt open as applicable, on safety and most importantly, your freaking finger off the freaking trigger. As far as your BIL, sounds like he is generally a responsible guy who made an error in judgement. You didn't say, but I assume that he was alone. I am betting that if anyone else had been there he would have double checked the rifle and would have handled it differently. He would get a pass at my place.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

For the "no loaded guns in camp guys", how many of you are CHL holders? You unload your weapons when you get home? How about while at someone else's house? Businesses? Restaurants?


Â©


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

spurgersalty said:


> For the "no loaded guns in camp guys", how many of you are CHL holders? You unload your weapons when you get home? How about while at someone else's house? Businesses? Restaurants?
> 
> Â©


Nope, my GAT is always loaded.


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## hunter98 (May 26, 2008)

Embarrassment alone ought to be enough punishment for your BIL, if he isn't just going around breaking all the rules. Thank GOD FIRST AND FOREMOST, no one was hurt, that being said Maybe y'all should revisit expectations and safety rules of y'all's lease.


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## Hookem2012 (Feb 24, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your input. All is well noted, and our lease members have given some of the same input as you have. Our lease manager will determine the outcome after the season is over. Again thank you and THANK GOD ABOVE that we are discussing this bonehead mistake rather than a funeral.

Have a great and SAFE rest of the season!!!

Hookem'


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## G-O-T-B (Jan 15, 2010)

Why do anything the guy made a mistake. move past it no one got hurt and everyone in the camp received a free reminder on gun safety where no one got hurt.


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

Agree with GOTB

Move on. Bet he won't EVER do it again.


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## graybow77 (Jun 18, 2008)

Hell his accident may have saved lots of lives on this site....I would keep him on knowing someone who may not have rules at his or her camp will probably pay more attention now...sometimes it takes something like this to happen to open up others eyes....


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

spurgersalty said:


> For the "no loaded guns in camp guys", how many of you are CHL holders? You unload your weapons when you get home? How about while at someone else's house? Businesses? Restaurants?
> 
> Â©


Yes I am...The only time I unload my handgun is if someone wants to look at it.

Unloaded; it becomes a club and nearly worthless...never take a club to a gun fight!


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## Category6 (Nov 21, 2007)

You need to change your lease rules from "unloaded" to "empty and open", that way anyone can visually confirm from a distance whether it's potentially in a fireable condition. I'd say that qualifies as a 2 strikes and you're out deal, which means break ANY camp rules more than once and you're gone. "Lets see here, you had the accidental discharge due to violating the no loaded guns rule back in 2013, and now you've left perishable food in the fridge...please turn in your keys and take down your stands & feeders by the end of the week."


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## wal1809 (May 27, 2005)

There is more than one screw up here.

1) rifle loaded in camp against the rules
2) the gun was not on safety
3) he pulled the GD trigger

You decide what to do with him because that is your business. I would **** sure not pass it off as one of the "Oh its alright, I know you learned your lesson". I'd be on his butt like white on rice. He would probably opt to not come back on his own, as I would not let up on him. Everytime he opened his mouth I would probably answer with "Yeah but I didn't discharge my weapon in camp".


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