# God created you to be a Christian.



## Fish&Chips

You were born about 2000 years after Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again from the grave. Before you even entered this world, God had already created you in your mother's womb. And you were created by God for a purpose. You were created to be a Christian.

It's not like God only wants some people to go to heaven. He wants everyone to go there. That is clear in Scripture. He created you because He desires to have an eternal relationship with you. And that relationship can only happen by coming to the Father through faith in Jesus, the Son. When you came into the world, you entered "God's neighborhood." If and when you are "born again" spiritually through faith in Christ, you will enter God's family.

You were not created by God to follow some other religion. You were created to know the truth, and love the truth, and follow the truth. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Unless you accept Him and follow Him, you cannot fulfill the purpose for which God created you. It's that simple.

One might think that with this being such an uncomplicated reality, everyone would follow this approach. But as we know all too well, multitudes of people do not yet know Jesus as their Savior and their Friend. That is tragic. The only way this gets corrected is when people hear the good news of God's love in Christ, and then repent and believe this good news. Outside of that spiritual conversion, there is no way for a person to fulfill God's purpose in their life.

Perhaps you know some Christians. And perhaps you don't think you are anything like them. That may be true, but think about how many other people in the world are also completely different than you. Just because you may find it difficult to relate to some Christians does not in turn mean that you understand Christianity. It just means that you recognize how varied people tend to be from one another. But there is no reason for you to allow these current differences to rob you of seeing how much you personally need Jesus in your life.

There is a spiritual being who works 24/7 in his efforts to rob people of what God wants to give them. That spiritual being is the devil. The devil is the one who produces spiritual blindness in the hearts and minds of unbelievers. I cannot tell you how he does it because I don't know. What I do know is that God's Word tells us this is the case. (see 2 Cor. 4:4) And we certainly see the fruit of his work all over the planet. Just look at how many people don't have a clue about their need for Jesus the Messiah.

Many people practice religion as a way to try to earn their way into heaven. The Bible reveals how this is impossible to accomplish. No one who enters heaven will have earned it. You only get in one way, and that is by God's grace through faith in Christ. Everyone who tries to work their way in will be horribly disappointed when they learn they are not getting into paradise. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:10) That goes for Jews as well as Gentiles. It goes for Mormons as well as Muslims. And it goes for Baptists as well as Pentecostals. Labels don't save anyone. Only Jesus does that, and He saves a person through the blood which He shed for our sins on the cross.

A Christian isn't merely someone who calls himself a "Christian." Being a Christian requires a new birth. It requires a relationship with Jesus through faith. And it results in a new life. Anything short of that is just religion. No one will ever be saved by religion, unless those religious beliefs and practices are truly connected to the One who said, "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)

God created you to be connected to this One who is the vine. God did not create you to experience what Jesus said in the very next verse: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (John 15:6) While that is a very graphic image, it is nevertheless the truth because it was spoken by our Creator and Redeemer. He never misleads anyone, and He never lies.

The liar is the one Jesus called "the father of lies." (John 8:44) The devil is that master deceiver, and he won't stop telling lies about Jesus until he is ultimately "thrown into the lake of burning sulfur." (Revelation 20:10) By that time, his lying will be over and his suffering will be magnified exponentially.

You either know that God created you to be a Christian, or you don't know it. If you don't know it, be assured of this: there is a spiritual being who is blinding you from the truth. You cannot see him, but he certainly sees you. In fact, he has a very strong lust for your soul. He hates Jesus. He chose to give into his pride rather than to humbly serve his Creator. And he hates you too.

Meanwhile, God loves you. Christ died for you. And the Lord invites you to enter His family immediately. It's a simple process. Admit to God that you have sinned against Him. Turn from sin as you give your life to Christ. Believe that Jesus paid for your sins on the cross. And accept God's free gift of eternal life. When you do, you will be saved instantly through faith. Then you will begin serving the Lord with a joyful heart because of all He has done to save your soul.

Those are the facts as they have been handed down to us from the Lord. We don't get to set the guidelines. We just get to accept or reject the One who is God over all. (see Romans 9:5)

Are you beginning to see that God truly did create you to be a Christian? Or are the scales on your spiritual eyes still so thick that none of this is even stirring your soul in the slightest way? I encourage you to think about it my friend. There is nothing in life or death even remotely as significant and essential as the purpose for which God created you.

By Dan Delzell


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## WillieT

I guess I need clarification here. The Bible speaks of two classes. At Revelation 7:4 it says 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The number 144,000 is a literal number, so it is not symbolic. Revelation 14: 1,3 seem to shed a little more light on whom these one are 1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

No one but these 144,000 knew this song, so that sets them apart. Luke 12:32 refers to them as a "little flock." 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. It is interesting to note that the kingdom will be given to them. 

Revelation 5:9,10 offers a little more insight into this "little flock". 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. This is the king James version and there is one word that is misinterpreted here, the on the earth, should be over the earth. It is obvious that these ones are in heaven, not on earth.

Now lets go back to Revelation 7 and look at verse 9. 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; A great multitude that no man could number, also approved by God because they stood before the throne.

This great multitude is also referred to at Revelation 19:1 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

There is a distinction of these two different classes. Revelation makes it very clear that both are favored in God's eyes, but nowhere is it mentioned that the kingdom would be given to them. Why is there a distinction?


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## JCIMS

Great post F&C...


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## JCIMS

Shaggydog--Excellent and relevant response.

Thanks for your posts,shaggy. You make a good Yin to F&C's Yang!!! 
Wait--That may have come out wrong.


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## WillieT

JCIMS said:


> Shaggydog--Excellent and relevant response.
> 
> Thanks for your posts,shaggy. You make a good Yin to F&C's Yang!!!
> Wait--That may have come out wrong.


Thank you sir. I was just curious about the statement God wants everyone in heaven. If everyone is in heaven, how doe the resurrection come into play. Also it the dead are conscience of nothing, if they are in heaven (or so called hell), wouldn't they be conscience of something?


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## JCIMS

I think it's true,God does want everyone in Heaven. That's why He sent Jesus to teach us how to get there. As Christians we are called to spread the Gospel (good news). We are
very much like the original Disciples.

No one comes to the Father except through Me.


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## WillieT

JCIMS said:


> I think it's true,God does want everyone in Heaven. That's why He sent Jesus to teach us how to get there. As Christians we are called to spread the Gospel (good news). We are
> very much like the original Disciples.
> 
> No one comes to the Father except through Me.


What about the resurrection? What about the dead being conscience of nothing? If everyone goes to heaven, why is the resurrection even mentioned in the bible? For those resurrected, are they pulled out of heaven?

God created Adam and Eve as perfect humans, designed to live forever. It was only if they disobeyed, that they would die (which to me indicates that if they had not disobeyed they could have lived forever). That was his original purpose. Has that purpose changed? Revelation 21 tells us that death will be done away with.

Psalms 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Then look what is in store for the righteous Ps 37:29 The righteous (those that wait upon the Lord) shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever. Doesn't this indicate that God's purpose never changed? Does this mean that people will live forever on earth? Could the resurrection promise have something to do with the earth? Would this fulfill God's original purpose? Just something to think about.

And yes Jesus died for us to have the opportunity to be a part of that fulfillment. I will go to my grave believing that.


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## grassman

If you could narrow your question(s) down to one sentence what would it be?


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## JCIMS

Jesus' resurrection was physical.
Human resurrection is spiritual. 
Are you talking about Rapture?
"Dead" physically or "spiritually"?
I'm not sure if the two can be compared in that way.


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## WillieT

Jesus resurrection was spiritual. He is no longer in human form. He appeared shortly after his death in human form and then ascended to the heavens (spiritual form). I believe human resurrection is different. Explain the two classes. The "little flock" and the "great crowd". I believe their resurrection is different. Did any of my questions bring up questions to you? All of the questions had scriptural basis.

I do not believe in the rapture.

I generally do not quote from religious articles, and I am not a follower of John Milton, but he was definitely right about some things. Here are some of his beliefs. He is spot on about the soul dieing. All of this is pertinent to this discussion. This comes from his work "On Christian Doctrine".

Miltonâ€™s Beliefs
By Miltonâ€™s time, England had embraced the Protestant Reformation and had broken with the Roman Catholic Church. Protestants generally believed that authority on matters of faith and morals came only from the Holy Scriptures and not from the pope. In On Christian Doctrine, though, Milton showed that many Protestant teachings and practices were also out of harmony with the Scriptures. On Biblical grounds, he rejected the Calvinist doctrine of predestination in favor of free will. He promoted respectful use of Godâ€™s name, Jehovah, using it freely in his writings.
Milton argued Scripturally that the human soul can die. Commenting on Genesis 2:7, he wrote: â€œWhen man had been created in this way, it is said, finally: thus man became a living soul. .Â .Â . He is not double or separable: not, as is commonly thought, produced from and composed of two different and distinct elements, soul and body. On the contrary, the whole man is the soul, and the soul the man.â€ Milton then posed the question: â€œDoes the whole man die, or only the body?â€ After presenting an array of Bible texts showing that all of man dies, he added: â€œBut the most convincing explanation I can adduce for the death of the soul is Godâ€™s own, Ezek[ielÂ 18:]20: the soul which sins shall itself die.â€ Milton also cited such texts as Luke 20:37 and John 11:25 to show that dead mankindâ€™s hope lies in a future resurrection from the sleep of death.
What triggered the strongest reaction to On Christian Doctrine? It was Miltonâ€™s simple but powerful Biblical proof that Christ, the Son of God, is subordinate to God, the Father. After quoting John 17:3 and John 20:17, Milton asks: â€œIf the Father is Christâ€™s God and our God, and if there is only one God, who can be God except the Father?â€
Further, Milton points out: â€œThe Son himself and his apostles acknowledge in everything they say and write that the Father is greater than the Son in all things.â€ (John 14:28) â€œIndeed it is Christ who says, Matt. xxvi.Â 39: OÂ my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will. .Â .Â . Why does he pray to the Father alone, rather than to himself, if he is himself really God? If he is himself both man and supreme God, why does he pray at all for something which is in his own power? .Â .Â . As the Son everywhere adores and venerates the Father alone, so he teaches us to do the same.â€

I am just trying to make you think. I will use the scriptures to do that. I want people to know what the scriptures really say.


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## grassman

If Jesus ascended in spirit form only He would have left His dead body here. If that happened His body would have died therefore not defeating death. There is no biblical backing to even suggest He only ascended in spirit form. After His death on the cross the preservation of His body was very well documented down to the finances of the tomb owner. Dont you think we would have been given some writings about who got His body the second time around.


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## WillieT

As a man Jesus did not defeat death. H died. I am really not following your questions. Show me some scriptures that will lead me to what you are asking. Those that go to heaven are in spirit form. There are no bodies walking around in heaven.


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## JCIMS

That's right, " no dead human bodies walking around in Heaven".

Therefore human resurrection=spiritual


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## JCIMS

So what happened to Jesus' body?

Physical resurrection.


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> As a man Jesus did not defeat death. H died. I am really not following your questions. Show me some scriptures that will lead me to what you are asking. Those that go to heaven are in spirit form. There are no bodies walking around in heaven.


Jesus did defeat death. He rose from the dead. Do you not believe that?


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## WillieT

JCIMS said:


> That's right, " no dead human bodies walking around in Heaven".
> 
> Therefore human resurrection=spiritual


Could it be possible that the resurrection could be an earthly resurrection? Yes


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## JCIMS

ummm, no.


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## WillieT

JCIMS said:


> So what happened to Jesus' body?
> 
> Physical resurrection.


So if Jesus had a physical resurrection, Where is he? There are no physical bodies in heaven, and I don't think he is on earth. Please support your statements with scriptures. I think you are just stating an opinion and that is fine. I try to let the scriptures direct me.


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## WillieT

JCIMS said:


> ummm, no.


Sorry I show what I know from the scriptures. The scriptures point exactly to an earthly resurrection. I have referenced them, but you do not want to acknowledge them. John Milton was exactly right on that belief. No more debate, you do not want to hear what the scriptures say.


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## WillieT

grassman said:


> Jesus did defeat death. He rose from the dead. Do you not believe that?


As a human Jesus did not defeat death. He was resurrected to heaven by his Father. In that sense I guess you could say he defeated death.


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## JCIMS

God Bless you, Shaggy dog.


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## WillieT

JCIMS said:


> God Bless you, Shaggy dog.


Bless you too JCIMS. Remember God prefers that none be destroyed, hew would love all to obtain everlasting life.

Mark 10: 29,30 29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life (everlasting life).

I hope you come to the knowledge of the truth. If so a paradise awaits.


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## Fish&Chips

Shaggy, my post was just a simple explanation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have already explained to you with scriptures how Jesus is God, in other threads . There is no need to bring these small details that you disagree with - they will just confuse people. The important question is "Have they been born again by the power of God?" 

Yes, God wishes all to go to heaven, but the bible clearly says that many will not enter into heaven.


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## WillieT

I have shown in many scriptures that there is no way Jesus is God. I am very well aware of the truth. Small details are what separates the truth from false doctrine. I will continue to preach the truth. 
You are correct that many will not enter into heaven. They will sleep in death until there is a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. Many that are in God's memory (deemed righteous) will not enter into heaven either. They will live on earth in a paradise, just as the scriptures say. Refer to the post right above yours. Mark 10: 29,30. There are many throughout the scriptures.


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## Fish&Chips

shaggydog said:


> I have shown in many scriptures that there is no way Jesus is God. I am very well aware of the truth. Small details are what separates the truth from false doctrine. I will continue to preach the truth.
> You are correct that many will not enter into heaven. They will sleep in death until there is a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. Many that are in God's memory (deemed righteous) will not enter into heaven either. They will live on earth in a paradise, just as the scriptures say. Refer to the post right above yours. Mark 10: 29,30. There are many throughout the scriptures.


Small details also lead to legalism. But that's ok shaggydog. You're right. I'm wrong. God bless you.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> Small details also lead to legalism. But that's ok shaggydog. You're right. I'm wrong. God bless you.


You make a very strong, absurd accusation. I back my reasoning from the scriptures.


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## atcfisherman

Shaggy,

If Christ' body didn't raise, then he is like all the other religious leaders who are still buried. So you are saying Jesus' body is still in the grave like everyone else? That is not what the bible teaches. Please show me scriptures to back this up because the bible is full of scriptures where Jesus' body was raised. When Mary went to the tomb, the body wasn't there.


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## WillieT

atcfisherman said:


> Shaggy,
> 
> If Christ' body didn't raise, then he is like all the other religious leaders who are still buried. So you are saying Jesus' body is still in the grave like everyone else? That is not what the bible teaches. Please show me scriptures to back this up because the bible is full of scriptures where Jesus' body was raised. When Mary went to the tomb, the body wasn't there.
> 
> In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


Are you telling me Jesus is in a physical body in heaven. Show me that from the scriptures.


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> Are you telling me Jesus is in a physical body in heaven. Show me that from the scriptures.


He is sitting in heaven. Do spirits need to sit?


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## JCIMS

Acts 1 9-11


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## Orion85

Didn't read all of thread. 

OP please don't preach about TRUTH, the things you state are not the TRUTH. They can not be proven, as such they are not fact, meaning they are not the TRUTH. They are theories, beliefs, and ideas, nothing more. Your argument looses creditability, when there is no foundation for it to stand on, and you use the wrong terminology. 

Also if you don't use personal pronouns, you are less likely to put your readers on the defensive, making them more receptive to your "beliefs, ideas, and theories". 

Where is the .gif of a smilie beating a dead horse when you need one.


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## WillieT

atcfisherman said:


> Shaggy,
> 
> If Christ' body didn't raise, then he is like all the other religious leaders who are still buried. So you are saying Jesus' body is still in the grave like everyone else? That is not what the bible teaches. Please show me scriptures to back this up because the bible is full of scriptures where Jesus' body was raised. When Mary went to the tomb, the body wasn't there.
> 
> In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


Jesus body is not still in the grave, neither was he raised (resurrected) as a physical body. After his resurrection he actually appeared in several different bodies, John 20: 14,15. Mary thought he was the gardener. Another account John 20: 24-29 with Thomas. Look at the accounts at Luke 24: 15,16,30,31,36-45.

1Peter 3:18 shows that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by ( made alive in or resurrected in) the Spirit:

You are correct that Jesus body did not decay, but had to have been disintegrated without the process of decaying. Refer to John 20: 2-9, and Luke 24:3-6, then look at Acts 2: 31 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Corruption meaning it did not rot. There are no physical bodies in heaven. If you disagree with this please show me from the scriptures.

As a side note Acts 2: 31 says that his soul WAS NOT LEFT in hell, which indicates he was at one time in hell. The true definition of biblical hell is the common grave of mankind, not a burning , tormenting fire. Acts 2:31 is quoted from the King James version of the bible. If you believe in a burning hell, do you really think his Father would have sent him there, even for a little while.


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## WillieT

JCIMS said:


> Acts 1 9-11


Spirit creatures (angels) escorting Jesus as a spirit creature.

Show me from the scriptures where it speaks of a physical body in heaven. You cannot do it. All those in heaven are spirit creatures, as is shown by the scriptures.


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## WillieT

Orion85 said:


> Didn't read all of thread.
> 
> OP please don't preach about TRUTH, the things you state are not the TRUTH. They can not be proven, as such they are not fact, meaning they are not the TRUTH. They are theories, beliefs, and ideas, nothing more. Your argument looses creditability, when there is no foundation for it to stand on, and you use the wrong terminology.
> 
> Also if you don't use personal pronouns, you are less likely to put your readers on the defensive, making them more receptive to your "beliefs, ideas, and theories".
> 
> Where is the .gif of a smilie beating a dead horse when you need one.


Thank you.


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## Fishin' Soldier

You guys are all arguing over hearsay and old wives/wise tales. 

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2


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## Orion85

shaggydog said:


> Thank you.


Your welcome. Although, after reading some more of the posts. My statement goes to you as well, albeit less explicitly. I applaud you for using scripture to provide supporting evidence for your claims and explanations. However, I implore you to consider the idea that scripture is the written word of the apostles, that has been translated and rewritten an untold number of times, and may not be fact, as it too can not be proven. Just the fact that there is a "King James" bible, tells me that what we have now is not a direct translation of the original word. Not to mention apostles that may have been excluded from the original text, for one reason or another.

That being said I believe in a God, because my heart tells me to. I do not believe in the church, nor a book written by man about "facts" that can not be proven, or any other "truths" that have been touched by the corruption that is human nature. I will agree that it does contain a general explanation of moral guidelines, and as such has helped many people in their various times of need.

"Death is the only true spiritual enlightenment"- Me


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## Fish&Chips

_A great many learned men are defending the gospel; no doubt it is a very proper and right thing to do, yet I always notice that, when there are most books of that kind, it is because the gospel itself is not being preached. Suppose a number of persons were to take it into their heads that they had to defend a lion, a full-grown king of beasts! There he is in the cage, and here come all the soldiers of the army to fight for him. Well, I should suggest to them, if they would not object, and feel that it was humbling to them, that they should kindly stand back, and open the door, and let the lion out!_
_I believe that would be the best way of defending him, for he would take care of himself; and the best â€œapologyâ€ for the gospel is to let the gospel out._
-_*CH Spurgeon*_



â€œTruth needs no defense!â€ After all, we serve him who declared, â€œI am the truth. . .â€ He is also called â€œThe Lion of the Tribe of Judah.â€


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## WillieT

Orion85 said:


> Your welcome. Although, after reading some more of the posts. My statement goes to you as well, albeit less explicitly. I applaud you for using scripture to provide supporting evidence for your claims and explanations. However, I implore you to consider the idea that scripture is the written word of the apostles, that has been translated and rewritten an untold number of times, and may not be fact, as it too can not be proven. Just the fact that there is a "King James" bible, tells me that what we have now is not a direct translation of the original word. Not to mention apostles that may have been excluded from the original text, for one reason or another.
> 
> That being said I believe in a God, because my heart tells me to. I do not believe in the church, nor a book written by man about "facts" that can not be proven, or any other "truths" that have been touched by the corruption that is human nature. I will agree that it does contain a general explanation of moral guidelines, and as such has helped many people in their various times of need.
> 
> "Death is the only true spiritual enlightenment"- Me


I do appreciate your honesty, although I do disagree on translation of the bible for the most part. I quote from the King James version, because I have taken flack from quoting other versions of the bible. I find the King James version one of the hardest versions of the Bible to understand simply because of the old English wording.

With very few exceptions, the message is almost identical from one version to the next. I have a bible that has seven different translations across the page. It is very interesting, but all versions give the same meaning. Man makes assumptions, adds things, and takes things away from the bible. That is why so many people are misled. They have been taught things from an early age that are just not true.

Personally I have 100% confidence in the bible. It was given to us as an instruction book and if we follow it in our everyday life we will be much better off.

2 Timothy 3:16, 17
16â€¯All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17â€¯that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

The bible is the most widely published and read book in the world, yet throughout the years it has been the most attacked book in the world. There is only one reason the book has survived. BECAUSE GOD KNEW WE NEEDED IT. You, too, can trust it if you search (this takes a lot of effort) out it's truths. It can bring blessing you cannot even imagine.


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## atcfisherman

Shaggy,

Why did Jesus tell Thomas to feel his wounds if He was in a physical body?

Furthermore, you say, " Is Jesus' body in heaven?" as proof he didn't rise from the dead, yet no one knows the answer to that other than God himself. 

Lastly, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, Lazarus came out in a physically body. Why? To show the world that He was God in the flesh because only God can do that. Thus, is was very important for Jesus to be physically raised to show that death was truly defeated. 

Where is the body of Jesus? When Mary went to the tomb, the angle of the Lord said that Jesus wasn't there. There was no body. If He didn't rise from the dead physically, then what happened to his body? 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## WillieT

Jesus body is not in heaven. Show me from the scriptures where any physical body is in heaven. When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, Lazarus did come out in a physical body, he came out in the body he died in. God gave the power to Jesus to raise the dead and perform the many other miracles that he performed. Jesus was not the only one to raise the dead. Some of the disciples also performed that miracle. Are they also God? No. 

I also said there was no body in the tomb and cited scriptures to support what hapened to the body.


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## WillieT

Orion85 said:


> Your welcome. Although, after reading some more of the posts. My statement goes to you as well, albeit less explicitly. I applaud you for using scripture to provide supporting evidence for your claims and explanations. However, I implore you to consider the idea that scripture is the written word of the apostles, that has been translated and rewritten an untold number of times, and may not be fact, as it too can not be proven. Just the fact that there is a "King James" bible, tells me that what we have now is not a direct translation of the original word. Not to mention apostles that may have been excluded from the original text, for one reason or another.
> 
> That being said I believe in a God, because my heart tells me to. I do not believe in the church, nor a book written by man about "facts" that can not be proven, or any other "truths" that have been touched by the corruption that is human nature. I will agree that it does contain a general explanation of moral guidelines, and as such has helped many people in their various times of need.
> 
> "Death is the only true spiritual enlightenment"- Me


After looking through my post. I stand by what I said. If you do not think what I posted is not the truth, please show me by way of the scriptures.


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## atcfisherman

Why did Jesus tell Thomas to feel his wounds if he didn't have a physical body?

Shaggy,

Many scriptures have been cited, but you dance around those or ignore those. 




In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## Seeker

shaggydog said:


> *I have shown in many scriptures that there is no way Jesus is God.* I am very well aware of the truth. Small details are what separates the truth from false doctrine. I will continue to preach the truth.
> You are correct that many will not enter into heaven. They will sleep in death until there is a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. Many that are in God's memory (deemed righteous) will not enter into heaven either. They will live on earth in a paradise, just as the scriptures say. Refer to the post right above yours. Mark 10: 29,30. There are many throughout the scriptures.


Not that I want to bicker about such..and I will not.. 
Shaggy, I have to disagree with this text statement in bold.

Here is my view, take it or leave it.. makes no difference to me.

A real life way of looking at it.

I being one person, fill many roles. I am a father, a son, a brother, a mentor, a fisherman an uncle, a son-in law, a brother-in law, and many others..

Now, as it is stated by scripture.. which I have posted plenty of times in the past, the three are one and the one are three. Known as the "Trinity". The way I see it and understand it is different than the way you have read it, see it and understand it. "We" do not have God's understandings nor do we understand things like he does.


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## TrueblueTexican

*Ahhh did God create man to be Christian?*

The millions before Christ as Christians? God created male and female in the flesh from the dust of the earth, he called them Adam and Eve, they fell from grace, and thus under the law -- God has endowed each and every man or woman ever born a God Shaped hole in their psyche, its called a spirit, and without this man would be no more than an animal. Man can kill this immortal spirit thru accepting Lucifers hand.

To the dust will our physical bodies return, the God Created spirit lives on immortal - either in the PRESENCE of our Creator or separated till the end of the millennia by an immense gulf, and a final spiritual death -- some departed were under the law or those of us freed from the law by accepting Jesus as the SON of God and following his teachings.

Salvation requires an ACT of faith - you won't receive if you don't ask -

Thank God he freed us from the law or else his kingdom would be ringingly silent.

So no, God created SPIRIT to WORSHIP him originally,---- since Jesus resurrection, now as followers of Christ, thru Gods HOLY SPIRIT and as worshipers of God.

Ever wonder WHY primitive people with no knowledge of diety must create such? Because its hardwired into man -

Go tell the world about Jesus and our Creator, tell them about how you were saved from spiritual death, what God has done in your experience as you walk in the flesh, how Jesus sacrificed for your sin - tell em about Jesus and their place in the fellowship of man.

This is WHAT you were CREATED for - to tell others --


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## Orion85

shaggydog said:


> . If you DO NOT think what I posted is NOT the truth, please show me by way of the scriptures.


I don't, so I won't. Besides, it is not prudent to use one theory to prove another.


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## WillieT

Orion85 said:


> I don't, so I won't. Besides, it is not prudent to use one theory to prove another.


My mistake on the double negative. God's word is not theory. If you believe it is how do you explain all the prophecies that have already been fulfilled?


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## Orion85

See my first post in this thread. 

I'm not saying that it is true or false. Only that we do not know for sure one way or the other. It cannot be tested or proven, so by definition, it is theory. 

Nor am I saying that people should not believe it or in it. I am only saying that it should not be referenced as fact, because it simply is not. 

I don't want hear anyone tell me: "this is how it is", because they cannot possibly know for sure. They can, however, tell me: "this is what I believe".


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## Fish&Chips

To some it is a theory. To those that believe, it is our faith.


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## Orion85

Fish&Chips said:


> To some it is a theory. To those that believe, it is our faith.


Agreed, it is their faith, but that does not make it fact, and they should know the difference.


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## WillieT

Orion85 said:


> See my first post in this thread.
> 
> I'm not saying that it is true or false. Only that we do not know for sure one way or the other. It cannot be tested or proven, so by definition, it is theory.
> 
> Nor am I saying that people should not believe it or in it. I am only saying that it should not be referenced as fact, because it simply is not.
> 
> I don't want hear anyone tell me: "this is how it is", because they cannot possibly know for sure. They can, however, tell me: "this is what I believe".


When history proved prophecy, fact, it is proven and is not theory. Each will believe however he chooses.


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## grassman

I think its time to go old school and take a look at the wilderness tabernacle. Study the meaning, furniture locations and purposes. I personally believe you cant understand the New Testament without at least a general understanding of how it all began.

If you understand the tabernacle you will understand who Jesus really is.

Anybody game?


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## WillieT

What about the tabernacle would you like to know?


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## atcfisherman

Never mind!!!


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## V-Bottom

When Jesus exited the tomb, shortley after he told Mary Magaline (sp.) NOT to touch Him because He has NOT acsended yet...therefore he had physical body.....then walked all over showing himself and speaking to folks. Some where in the Bible it says God does not care about any rellgion, He just wants you/me/and others to live by His Word...and obey the 10 Commandments.
What strikes me as odd, when you go to funerals, or hear of the words spoke at funerals, preachers and everyone else always says he or she is in a Better Place now , meaning Heaven...not Hell. He or she is in no pain anymore, for he/she is in the Arms of the Lord. Have you ever heard a service where someone says he/she went to Hell.....and is in the arms of the Devil ? I haven't. We have heard about people having "out of body experiences"....Bright Lights, Angels, Family, Birds, Beautiful Dwellings that are beyond human description.....Peace and Harmony...Have you heard of ONE person that had an experience and said he went to Hell and back? Not me. I am getting old/older..and yes I admit death scares me and fearing the unknown...OK, if I am a Believer, I should not fear the unknown ...right? I know this goes thru everyones mind...were only Human.
God Bless you all.........


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## DA REEL DADDY

First of all thanks for the post. Good points here.

I only heard one person say that. I was on T.V. on one of those near death shows.

A guy died and felt like he was going to hell and was revived by the doctors. The best I can recall he said this and since then has changed his ways. That is the only I can recall hearing.



V-Bottom said:


> When Jesus exited the tomb, shortley after he told Mary Magaline (sp.) NOT to touch Him because He has NOT acsended yet...therefore he had physical body.....then walked all over showing himself and speaking to folks. Some where in the Bible it says God does not care about any rellgion, He just wants you/me/and others to live by His Word...and obey the 10 Commandments.
> What strikes me as odd, when you go to funerals, or hear of the words spoke at funerals, preachers and everyone else always says he or she is in a Better Place now , meaning Heaven...not Hell. He or she is in no pain anymore, for he/she is in the Arms of the Lord. Have you ever heard a service where someone says he/she went to Hell.....and is in the arms of the Devil ? I haven't. We have heard about people having "out of body experiences"....Bright Lights, Angels, Family, Birds, Beautiful Dwellings that are beyond human description.....Peace and Harmony...Have you heard of ONE person that had an experience and said he went to Hell and back? Not me. I am getting old/older..and yes I admit death scares me and fearing the unknown...OK, if I am a Believer, I should not fear the unknown ...right? I know this goes thru everyones mind...were only Human.
> God Bless you all.........


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## WillieT

V-Bottom said:


> When Jesus exited the tomb, shortley after he told Mary Magaline (sp.) NOT to touch Him because He has NOT acsended yet...therefore he had physical body.....then walked all over showing himself and speaking to folks. Some where in the Bible it says God does not care about any rellgion, He just wants you/me/and others to live by His Word...and obey the 10 Commandments.
> What strikes me as odd, when you go to funerals, or hear of the words spoke at funerals, preachers and everyone else always says he or she is in a Better Place now , meaning Heaven...not Hell. He or she is in no pain anymore, for he/she is in the Arms of the Lord. Have you ever heard a service where someone says he/she went to Hell.....and is in the arms of the Devil ? I haven't. We have heard about people having "out of body experiences"....Bright Lights, Angels, Family, Birds, Beautiful Dwellings that are beyond human description.....Peace and Harmony...Have you heard of ONE person that had an experience and said he went to Hell and back? Not me. I am getting old/older..and yes I admit death scares me and fearing the unknown...OK, if I am a Believer, I should not fear the unknown ...right? I know this goes thru everyones mind...were only Human.
> God Bless you all.........


He had a physical body because he had not ascended. There are no physical bodies in heaven. He also materialized in several different physical bodies over a short period of time after his death. Many saw him the including the apostles, and did not recognize him by his physical appearance.

As far as a preacher saying someone has gone to hell, you never will hear that for two reasons. First is the hypocrisy in religion, they tickle the ears of the people, tell them what they want to hear. Second, and they may or may not really realize it, but there is no physical hell. "God is Love". "The wage of sin is death". "The dead are conscience of nothing". God could not torture someone, punish them yes, torture, no. Plus if the dead or conscience of nothing, how could they feel something?

The 10 commandments were part of the Mosaic law. They were done away with. The principals that they set forth still apply, Just think what kind of world we would be living in if everyone followed those principals. When you pray the lords prayer,"thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Think deeply about what you are praying for. Jesus gave us that prayer as a model for us to use when we speak to our heavenly Father. Jesus sits at the right hand of his Father. Jesus is king of that kingdom as this is being typed. He will act as Judge in the near future, and those deemed unrighteous will be destroyed. At that time His kingdom will be ruling over the earth and all on the earth will be worshiping God in the way they should be. The very first part of that prayer, "our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name" is talking about the sanctification of God's name. The sanctification of His name is should always be our main concern. The question of His right to rule was brought up by Satan when he deceived Eve in the garden.

Fear of the unknown plagues man. It is nothing new, and is something that most men feel. The best way to address fear of the unknown is to learn about it. If it is your fear of death, study the bible. The scriptures, if you gain accurate knowledge will "set you free" of that fear. I do not fear death, but like I said before I am fearful of the way I might die. That is the unknown and there is no way to know how it might happen.

V, I hope you will find peace, and by studying the scriptures, will overcome your fear.


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> What about the tabernacle would you like to know?


If the OT Tabernacle was created so God could dwell amongst His people who it be safe to say His presence was manifested into the tabernacle. I believe the term for that is Shekinah. Are we on the same page there?


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## TrueblueTexican

*The Tabernacle was built*

In the Old Testament for Jews to worship and offer sacrifices to God the Jewish high priest was the only human who could walk into the holy of holies without dropping dead, not an UN-HOLY human ever lived except for Jesus who could stand in the PHYSICAL PRESENCE of our Creator. At that time Gentiles were excluded

God spoke to Moses thru a burning bush, the ground Moses stood on at that time was Holy ground.

God appeared to man many times in the Old Testament, but never in his HOLY Form. 
"When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."

GENESIS 5:21-24

"As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

II KINGS 2:11

Very few understand what God says by holy - todays church does not have a clue -

As to death and funerals its a joyful occasion that brings a Christian home, death is a terrible dark day especially for those of us who lose family members and friends whom we know were lost -

There are many tales told by folks who died/ were resuscitated and were given a vision of hell - not Dantes Hell, but a physical ache, and loss, and heat and light

Our SPIRIT strives to God the Creator - it screams out to us to believe in God, even the folks who choose not to believe in God are goaded to fill that God Created space

At some point the SPIRIT just gives up and as God tells us we are given over to the sinful pleasures we seek -


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## WillieT

I agree that the Shekinah light represented the presence of God in His temple or tabernacle.


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## WillieT

I walk with God in that I understand His requirement of me and strive to do His will as best I can, being imperfect. I do not literally walk with God, nor did Enoch. No man can see God and live. That is why it is very important to understand that Jesus and God are not the same. Many people saw Jesus and lived.


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## TrueblueTexican

*Yep*



shaggydog said:


> I walk with God in that I understand His requirement of me and strive to do His will as best I can, being imperfect. I do not literally walk with God, nor did Enoch. No man can see God and live. That is why it is very important to understand that Jesus and God are not the same. Many people saw Jesus and lived.


All folks have to do is READ God's word CORRECTLY, too many Christians have un-confessed sin in their lives, and think crackin the book will give them insight, when in fact, they have run off their guide to understanding due to UNHOLINESS

God the Father, Jesus his Son, AND the Holy Spirit SENT as a guide to understanding to fallen men at Pentecost.


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## WillieT

TrueblueTexican said:


> All folks have to do is READ God's word CORRECTLY, too many Christians have un-confessed sin in their lives, and think crackin the book will give them insight, when in fact, they have run off their guide to understanding due to UNHOLINESS
> 
> God the Father, Jesus his Son, AND the Holy Spirit SENT as a guide to understanding to fallen men at Pentecost.


I agree completely, unfortunately too many do not understand God's word as intended. And the three entities that you spoke of, God, Jesus, and His holy spirit have been given to us to help all of us. And they are three entities, not one.


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## JCIMS

God's plan is not for us to understand. We as Christians are to obey his word and try to be a better person. Some of us believe in Trinity. I think all of us here understand your argument against this belief, so would you please stop trying to force it down our throats?
We all believe in God, Jesus and Holy Spirit. Can we just leave it at that, and get back to spreading the Good News?


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## TrueblueTexican

Acts 1 -8
Jesus said to his disciples before his ascent into heaven - But you will receive *power* when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.â€

Jesus apostles on the day of Pentecost received that Holy Spirit which DESCENDED visually on each apostle as tongues of flames, and each apostle began speaking in languages not their own - foreign born participants in the Jewish holiday were amazed because they heard the message spoken in their own languages, and not more than a few accused tho apostles of being drunk at the morning hour.

The followers of Christ grew exponentially because of the HOLY SPIRITS POWER that week.

Lots of powerless Christians doing the zombie shuffle these days - just a little sin won't hurt will it?


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## WillieT

TrueblueTexican said:


> Acts 1 -8
> Jesus said to his disciples before his ascent into heaven - But you will receive *power* when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.â€
> 
> Jesus apostles on the day of Pentecost received that Holy Spirit which DESCENDED visually on each apostle as tongues of flames, and each apostle began speaking in languages not their own - foreign born participants in the Jewish holiday were amazed because they heard the message spoken in their own languages, and not more than a few accused tho apostles of being drunk at the morning hour.
> 
> The followers of Christ grew exponentially because of the HOLY SPIRITS POWER that week.
> 
> Lots of powerless Christians doing the zombie shuffle these days - just a little sin won't hurt will it?


I do not disagree with this. Tongues of flames appeared above their heads and it was through the Holy Spirit, that God gave to them, that they acquired the ability to speak in foreign languages. This gave them the opportunity to preach the good new of the kingdom to those that they could not communicate with, before this time. The holy spirit is a very powerful force, and it is controlled and given by God, it is not God.


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