# Proverbs 1 vrs 7



## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Fear of the LORD is the foundation of true knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline. 

One to think about this week. It is amazing how he can turn your worst fears into something you will learn from..


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

Good Scripture there Seeker. Thanks for the good word.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fear of God should be a healthy fear, a fear of displeasing Him, not a morbid fear of Him because we think He might torture us. God is not capable of that.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

*Hell is real.*



shaggydog said:


> Fear of God should be a healthy fear, a fear of displeasing Him, not a morbid fear of Him because we think He might torture us. God is not capable of that.


According to the bible, hell is a real place of eternal punishment.

*Is Hell Eternal?*

The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ezk. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).

The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1​Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.

There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation:
"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24).​Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.

"And these will pay the penalty of *eternal destruction*, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of *eternal fire*" (Jude 7).
These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved* forever*," (Jude12-13).
*Is "forever and ever" without end?*
The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.
*forever and ever*








aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"*Eternal - without end**Eternal Damnation*"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory *forever and ever*. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).

". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion *forever and ever*" (Rev. 5:13).
"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up *forever and ever*" (Rev. 19:3).

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night *forever and ever*," (Rev. 20:10).
The Greek phrase _aionas ton aionon_, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great whore of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up *forever and ever*; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, _aionas ton aionon_, which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is _aionas aionon_ which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.

*Unquenchable Fire*

Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.
Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with *unquenchable* fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)
Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the *unquenchable* fire." The word "unquenchable" is _asbestos_ in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."
The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which is _asbestos_ in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.

"_unquenchable, inextinguishable_"2
"_not quenched_"3
"_pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out_" - "_unquenchable_."4
"_unquenched, unquenchable_"5
"_that cannot be put out_"6
"_inextinguishable_"7
Is hell eternal? Yes it is. Are its fires without end? Yes they are. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really. But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel. Jesus said,
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).​


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

You are speaking of a lot of symbolic scriptures, or scriptures you misinterpret. 

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9). Eternal destruction is correct, no hope of a resurrection.

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

Fire in the bible can symbolically represent eternal destruction, which it does in the sctipture cited above.

These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13). Noting about eternal torment here.

Matthew 18:1 strictly symbolic.

Do you think God would have sent his son, Jesus, into hell if it was a place of torment? Jesus died a perfect man, how could he have possibly been sent into hell if it is a place of torment? See the thread on the subject of ordained minister on the internet.

Here is what is referred to in that thread

I do hereby accept Jesus Christ, born of the Virgin Mary, as the son of God and our true and holy savior. He died for my sins, decended into hell but rose again, is now seated at the right hand of the Father to watch over me, and for that I give thanks.Forgiveness of Sins

A burning hell, there is not.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

Shaggydog, you, I mean the watchtower is really good at twisting scriptures. Do you know how many times the watchtower has been wrong in the past? I've noticed for a while now that everything you post is copied from the Jehova's Witness Library. Could it be that they might be wrong again?


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> Shaggydog, you, I mean the watchtower is really good at twisting scriptures. Do you know how many times the watchtower has been wrong in the past? I've noticed for a while now that everything you post is copied from the Jehova's Witness Library. Could it be that they might be wrong again?


You have no clue. I encourage you to research the origin of the trinity doctrine. Google it and see what you find. I think you will be surprised. The light gets brighter as we near the end. Most religion will never admit to a mistake, that is why so many are being misled.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

shaggydog said:


> You have no clue. I encourage you to research the origin of the trinity doctrine. Google it and see what you find. I think you will be surprised. The light gets brighter as we near the end. Most religion will never admit to a mistake, that is why so many are being misled.


Can you answer my question? How many times has the watchtower been wrong in the past? Especially with prophesies and changing their stance on doctrines.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> Can you answer my question? How many times has the watchtower been wrong in the past? Especially with prophesies and changing their stance on doctrines.


You tell me since you seem to know so much. Tell me which doctrines have changed? Tell me the prophesies you speak of?


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish, did you google the origin of the trinity doctrine? You did not mention it. Are you afraid of what you might find? 

It was actually started in the day of Constantine, you might want to do some research on him. Look into the Babylonian teachings concerning the trinity also.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

shaggydog said:


> Fish, did you google the origin of the trinity doctrine? You did not mention it. Are you afraid of what you might find?
> 
> It was actually started in the day of Constantine, you might want to do some research on him. Look into the Babylonian teachings concerning the trinity also.


I am well aware of that shaggydog and no I'm not afraid. If it's in the bible, then it is correct. Does that mean I agree with everything that a religion teaches? No, just like JW's - they say a lot of truth but also mix in a lot of false doctrine.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

shaggydog said:


> Fear of God should be a healthy fear, ( I agree) a fear of displeasing Him, (I'm a sinner so that has already happened) not a morbid fear of Him because we think He might torture us.(God will do what ever he sees fit to fulfill his purpose) God is not capable of that.


 (Easy explaining anything for God, you were not around when he authored this segment of his purpose)

But, with this being said..

What is your interpretation of 1 Samuel 7 verse 19 and 20? I don't guess he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah either because he was quiet frankly "Disgusted with humans"... You should read the book of Genesis, out of lets say, a King James Version Bible. It will tell you all about it. Oh by the way.. God was angry enough to destroy and "KILL" every living thing on this planet with a flood. I'm not sure you have read about that one either. It is a really neat writing about this alcoholic named "Noah". God told him to build the ark to specific dimensions. Gave him specific orders about collecting animals. Herd them up because it's going to be bad. No survivors because God wanted to start it over... Oh he was angry.. and he killed pretty much everything he intended to.. But you need to read all about it.

This same God. The very God who spoke this world into existence.. who chose to turn against Israel...and punish them (killing many in slavery by the Egyptians by the way) God's elected people with no mercy and hardened Pharaohs heart many times to make his point... resulted in many Israelite people dying in a Desert over a 40 year time period by the way... was angry. The list goes on and on and on...

Then, we get to the point where his son, "Jesus Christ" was sent by God himself to die on a cross for your sins and mine. Both Jews and Gentiles.. God sent his one and only son.. Jesus Christ... to atone for our sins. God did not even spare his own son, what makes one think God will have any mercy on us?

Gods "Glory".. his pure "ESSENCE" is something you and I just don't understand. But I will say this, If you do not mind, pick up a King James version bible, open it to the book of Romans.. Look and chapter 9... the verse 15 specifically says:

For he saith to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion". It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it was written, Jacob I have loved, but Esau.. have I hated!

And let me say this.. "HATED" is a pretty strong English word.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

You confuse me Shaggy. But the scripture is all I need. And it is pretty clear.


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## glenbo (Apr 9, 2010)

shaggydog, what you refer to in your post #5 is my posting asking about what folks think about that website peddling "ordained minister registration" saying Jesus died and went to hell for 3 days. I believe he died on the cross for our sins, was buried, then resurrected in 3 days. I haven't gone back to re-read it all, but for them to say Jesus went to hell just seems to be beyond anything I was taught in the old-time Independent Missionary Baptist Churches I was raised in.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> Shaggydog, you, I mean the watchtower is really good at twisting scriptures. Do you know how many times the watchtower has been wrong in the past? I've noticed for a while now that everything you post is copied from the Jehova's Witness Library. Could it be that they might be wrong again?


What has the "watchtower" been wrong about in the past? I don't think you know much about the witnesses by a lot of your posts. You really need to look in to religious doctrines before you call religions out. you are good at copying and posting negative articles about whatever religion you want to call out on whatever day it is.

You are also pretty bad about getting personal. You do not know me at all, but you continue to make assumptions. I know something about many religions, their beliefs and doctrines. I don't mind you questioning my beliefs, I try to reason on what I believe by referring to scriptures, so question away. But you making personal assumptions on me, personally, gets old.

I am curious to what you beliefs and doctrines of the witnesses have been changed, or were wrong? Please be specific or keep your opinions to yourself.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Seeker said:


> (Easy explaining anything for God, you were not around when he authored this segment of his purpose)
> 
> But, with this being said..
> 
> ...


God has destroyed the unrighteous on several occasions, I have stated so many times. The final destruction of the wicked will come in the great day of God's judgement in the battle of armageddon. It will be something like has never occurred before, nor will never occur again. At that time God's kingdom will rule "on earth, as it is in heaven." many people know the Lord's Prayer, but do not really know what they are praying for. Many that know that prayer will be destroyed.

I think the question that was posed was, is there a burning hellfire. The answer to that question is NO. The wage that sins pays is death, not torture. There is a resurrection that is spoken of, it talks about the resurrection of the "righteous and the unrighteous." How could the unrighteous be resurrected, if they were condemned to eternal torment. There will be some that have no hope of a resurrection, but they still will not be tortured, the wage they paid is death.


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