# 6ft Alligator gar



## captain B-Rig

Put the boat in right at dark and went looking for some flounder and reds. Fishing was slow and tide quit moving completely. Decided to head to our local night time gar hole. As soon as we pulled up we knew it was gonna be good. We saw multiple shooter fish now we were just waiting for one to screw up and role in front of us. After about 5 minutes a decent 4 footer rolled about 12yds from the boat. One of the farthest shots I've ever seen. We started trolling again headed for a spot we had just seen a big one role and sure enough she surfaced again.


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## fishingwithhardheadkings

Nice job!


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## ras308

*Nice*

Great job. Where do you put in? Are y'all ready for bow season only 2 1/2 weeks away!!!


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## FishingFrog

I'm 6'5 and he's 7'7 200lbs shot on the Colorado river in la grange tx on Mother's Day this year


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## Slim-N-None

SharkBait >*)\\\><( said:


> im not into bowfishing(in fact i think it should be illegal but thats just me) if you shoot, kill and eat what your targeting i can respect that..their are people "releasing" gar they have shot with arrows which is amazingly unethical and i cant believe that the guides that do it can keep a business going that way(Mark Malfa)..
> 
> the gar for the colorado is neat i have been looking to target them closer to austin(have been going to the trinity)..was going to try near smithville on the colorado just a bit upstream from where you got that one..also have a spot just 15 miles below austin i know i can get a 100 pound gar at..also been meaning to try the brazos as well as the san gabriel for them..


Guys post a heck of a fish no matter how it was taken and you are gonna **** on it? Maybe going kayak fishing offshore should be illegal since you might break a lure off and kill the fish since thats what you like to do. Sheesh, what has 2cool become.

Nice gar yall no matter if yall ate it, or used it for fertilizer.


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## USAHOG

*nice shot*

helluva shot, how long to pull her in? ive tried RR but have had a hard time hooking up. gonna try the bow next time. disregard nay sayers its legal and your having fun. alligator gar are not on the endangered list. get sum!


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## FishingFrog

SharkBait >*)\\\><( said:


> IMO gar should be protected the same way Jewfish are, catch and release and not allowed to remove from the water, like i said that is just me..the gars natural range is too small and they grow too slow to be targeted the way they are..if we had arapaima in our waters(and were the only place in the world that had them) i guarantee people would not be shooting them with a bow, and people would definitely not be "releasing" them after shooting them multiple times with a bow for fun..smh
> 
> as for mark malfa "releasing" gar that have been shot with a bow, actually it is illegal and so is killing a fish you dont eat..
> you may want to reread my post before you try to jump on me
> and either way i dont care, i will be doing what i can to get alligator gar protected from bowhunting in Tx during my lifetime
> you call it good family fun i call it genocide on one of the neatest and oldest fish in our waters.
> and guess what i want my kids kids to be able to catch them, this is why i release 99% of the fish i catch no matter where i fish and will do what i can for conservation period


i shot it, it was a monster i saw 3 or 4 more that size or better in one area, i know not everyone sees them but you just have to know how to find them and catch/shoot them. i don't shoot everyone i see, i think they are awesome but they taste like SH!t and we all know that. you go sit in the trinity and catch yours and i will keep bowfishing. no hard feelings.


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## SharkBait >*)\\\><(

i hear yah man i really wasnt trying to get on you or the OP, my fight is more against the guys like the gar guide who told me they shot 11 of them that day near palastine..unethical and illigal..eat what you kill and all that..

gonna try the colorado close to austin today or tomorrow for em, got a nice deep hole i have been seeing a few at..


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## SINGLEBARRELL

We eat all the gar we shoot I killed a 6 footer back strap like a big buck wrapped in bacon like scallops is very good


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## Trouthappy

They should be protected for about 20 years, since they grow so slowly. And they've lost about 80 percent of their original range.


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## texas two guns

You can't imagine the consequences of allowing them to be protected for 20 years. That means from trotliners, R&R, bowfising and commercial. The damage they will inflict on true sport fish numbers would be very unfortunate.


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## SharkBait >*)\\\><(

texas two guns said:


> You can't imagine the consequences of allowing them to be protected for 20 years. That means from trotliners, R&R, bowfising and commercial. The damage they will inflict on true sport fish numbers would be very unfortunate.


keep telling yourself that...why would you take part in the eradication of a native species that has called these rivers and lakes home for far longer than man.


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## texas two guns

No one is eradicating anything. There are a lot of alligator gar in Texas nd they are steadily getting bigger and bigger every year. More and more every year.


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## SharkBait >*)\\\><(

killing a fish species that lives to be over 100 years old is not sustainable. even the small ones can be older than you, most male gar never get over 50 pounds with a few making it over 100 pounds.

they are no different than arapaima in south america. im 100% for protection of this species. eating what you kill is one thing, but i see allot of people feeding vultures and "releasing" gar they shot with arrows.


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## texas two guns

Your way off base. You should go study the research, from this century, on alligator gar.


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## SharkBait >*)\\\><(

how am i off base? gar dont live to be over 100 years old? the males done barely get over 50 pounds? 
as for people releasing them with arrows in them, i have had several gar guides brag about shooting 11 gar or more in a day. i dont need to look at research to know thats illegal. the research that was done by kirk for TPWD tagging 3000 gar showed they needed to be protected


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## texas two guns

By Kirk? The ex commercial fisherman? The man who's family has killed more alligator
gar than anyone every will again? Jeez.

Yes, gar can live to be over 100yr but what does that mean? Most 5-6 feet gar or less than 15 yrs old, some under 10yrs. Their age to length/weight is sporadic at best. Males can and do get over 50 lbs regularly. As far as shooting and releasing, that is a TPWD rule that was only just recently put into play, the year after the one per day rule. So yeah, I'm sure you have heard people bragging. But I'm also sure there are at least as many alligator gar killed by trotliners and catfishermen as bowfishermen. Definately more are left to rot from others than by bowfishermen.


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## SharkBait >*)\\\><(

so what if kirk fished these fish commercially for many years. now he protects the species and has championed them like no one else has, i give him full credit for the current state of protection these fish are in..
sometimes you have to do allot of wrong before you realize what you were doing needed to change. kirk is good in my book. its the pos bowfisherman killing for the fun of it(and releasing "shot" gar) i have a problem with, that and the people not observing the limit set by TPWD.

you are way off about the age of these fish there is no way a 15 year old fish is over 6 foot. keep making up what you want to justify what your doing.


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## texas two guns

Oh, so you don't trust the biologists studies?

And by the way, I too dislike poachers, by I don't label them as bowfishermen.
A person breaking the game laws is a poacher, period. But bowfishing is a legal
sport. Do you call someone spotlighting deer a deer hunter? Do you call a gill netter
a fisherman?


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## bighrt4

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/nonpwdpubs/media/gar_status_073108.pdf

Sounds like there isn't a ton of research on actual numbers. But I learned my one thing for the day so I'm done.

I have always wanted to catch a big one and due a euro mount. Other than that I have had no desire to even try and catch them.


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## Texican89

I love bowfishing gar, and will continue to as long as it is legal. I might even buy an airboat. Texas two guns, don't let em get to you.


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## texas two guns

It's the same old argument, time and time again. They hate us because we don't usually eat what we kill. Most guys will eat the alligator gar though. 
I can't argue a moral issue, I was raised the same way, but rough fish are vermin, same as coyotes and pigs. Is it sporting to catch these fish? Sure, same as hunting coyotes and pigs, but they don't seem to getting eaten, nor are the populations declining. So if it's legal and not hurting the population then leave the sport alone and we'll not infringe on your sport.


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## slimjim1987

> They hate us because we don't usually eat what we kill. Most guys will eat the alligator gar though.


It's not that y'all don't eat what you kill....it's that you don't eat it, nor use it for any legitimate purpose at all, which is illegal. Your sole purpose is to kill. Most guys eat the alligator gar they shoot? I know you think you know how many people enjoy your "sport", but not all of them belong to your clubs, or attend your tournaments. There are way more of them out there than you think. Did you take a run down the trinity after the bowfishing tournament this year? There were way too many floating gar with holes in them. Speak for yourself on how you follow the rules...that's fine, but don't speak for the majority that you don't even know exist. I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again...I have no problem with someone legally taking a fish and eating or utilizing it for a legitimate purpose.



> rough fish are vermin, same as coyotes and pigs.


I'm glad you finally said this is what you believe. When you finally decide to educate yourself on these fish and realize that they aren't "vermin," maybe you can see why our views differ. Coyotes kill livestock, pets, etc. Pigs destroy farm land. What kind of problems are the Alligator Gar causing in Trinity, Sabine, etc?

You know, every time you try to argue you like to bring up the fact that Kirk used to commercially fish for gar, or use analogies that don't even relate to Gar. It will be a cold day in Hell before you can come up with one logical way to justify your "sport". Carry on...New laws are coming, and the bowfishermen brought it on themselves. :dance:


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## texas two guns

I don't disagree that bowfishermen brought it on themselves. However, do we outlaw flounder gigging because some gig too many? Do we outlaw deer hunting because some spotlight? I say let TPWD enforce the laws they think think they need. 

To be clear, the rough fish I speak of are the carp and lesser gar species. Just because someone likes catching them on R&R doesn't change the fact that they are rough fish. The alligator gar, like I said, a lot of guys I know of, eat them. Yes, I know there are more people that bowfish than are in our club. 

And sir, I don't pretend I can change your mind anymore than you think you can change mine. I'm just getting the other side of the story out there for those on the fence or like you said, the uneducated.


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## slimjim1987

> However, do we outlaw flounder gigging because some gig too many? Do we outlaw deer hunting because some spotlight?


Again, that's not comparing apples to apples...



> I say let TPWD enforce the laws they think think they need.


I totally agree. Why is it that the bowfishing community as a whole has tried their best to prevent any new laws concerning bowfishing to be established by TPW?



> Just because someone likes catching them on R&R doesn't change the fact that they are rough fish.


I understand that. But the fact that a fish is not considered a Game Fish does not necessarily make it vermin, harmful, or non-useful in an ecosystem, and y'all need to stop spreading those lies. I saw a guy wearing a shirt that said something about bowfishing saving game fish, which is pure BS. Bowfishermen can't justify shooting thousands of fish by saying they are doing the lake a favor.



> I'm just getting the other side of the story out there for those on the fence or like you said, the uneducated.


I really think the best thing for your sport would be to start educating the bowfishermen. Most people that oppose bowfishing probably wouldn't have a problem with it if you all followed the rules and only took what you needed instead of uselessly killing thousands of fish and dumping them to rot for no reason. You know, TP&W wouldn't have to impliment new rules if people would think about the consequences of their actions and what kind of message they send. I don't think we are the uneducated ones....We know what we see when we go to the lake.


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## texas two guns

slimjim1987 said:


> Again, that's not comparing apples to apples...
> 
> Is it not? Your letting the results of a few bad "apples" make your mind up about the sport.
> 
> I totally agree. Why is it that the bowfishing community as a whole has tried their best to prevent any new laws concerning bowfishing to be established by TPW?
> 
> Because the new rules for alligator gar were not based on sound science. Even when the studies were done and completed, the commissioners did not listen to or even understand their own studies.
> 
> I understand that. But the fact that a fish is not considered a Game Fish does not necessarily make it vermin, harmful, or non-useful in an ecosystem, and y'all need to stop spreading those lies. I saw a guy wearing a shirt that said something about bowfishing saving game fish, which is pure BS. Bowfishermen can't justify shooting thousands of fish by saying they are doing the lake a favor.
> 
> Tell that to the guys in the mid-west and our northern brothers that have to deal with constantly muddy lakes due to an over abundance of common carp. How about our Texas brothers from Lake Falcon who see their bass population being eaten up by too many alligator gar. What about the invasive asian carp species, the big head and slivers?
> 
> I really think the best thing for your sport would be to start educating the bowfishermen. Most people that oppose bowfishing probably wouldn't have a problem with it if you all followed the rules and only took what you needed instead of uselessly killing thousands of fish and dumping them to rot for no reason. You know, TP&W wouldn't have to impliment new rules if people would think about the consequences of their actions and what kind of message they send. I don't think we are the uneducated ones....We know what we see when we go to the lake.


Yes, as I already stated, there are bad apples. People that are uneducated and don't see the consequences of their actions. As far as the rules, my friends and myself follow the rules set forth by TPWD.


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## RAMROD1

You know what? This is not bungle in the jungle! This forum is for the Bow Fisherman in the 2Cool community I am really getting tired of reading all this ****! I come here to see what people have caught or shot and not what I am reading up above. Take all this BS to the appropriate forum. 


Sent from RaMROD's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slimjim1987

> Is it not? Your letting the results of a few bad "apples" make your mind up about the sport.


My point was that you can't compare deer and flounder management to Gar management. That's what I meant by "not comparing apples to apples". Am I letting a few bad apples make up my mind? It takes way more than a few bad apples to create the scenes I see every time I go to the river or the lake.



> Because the new rules for alligator gar were not based on sound science. Even when the studies were done and completed, the commissioners did not listen to or even understand their own studies.


Come on Tony, we both know that none of those studies were done during an active spawn. I shouldn't have to tell you that! I thought you were there and a part of it. It's just another example of trying to use irrelevant studies to support your side. I've said this to you multiple times! We don't have any proof that allowing the harvest of Gar during a spawn would affect the population either way. By the way, Science is science. There isn't right science and wrong science. Your science is not different than my science. We both have the same studies. Bad interpretation and application in real life is where we have a problem.



> Tell that to the guys in the mid-west and our northern brothers that have to deal with constantly muddy lakes due to an over abundance of common carp. How about our Texas brothers from Lake Falcon who see their bass population being eaten up by too many alligator gar. What about the invasive asian carp species, the big head and slivers?


I'm not going to talk about the Big heads and the silvers, since those are a totally different topic and doesn't apply to what we are talking about. Common Carp are considered Naturalized in our state. They have been here over 100 years, and during that time they have lived along side our native fishes just fine. I think you are referencing the shallow lakes up north that have problems with the common carp, and if they have a problem then I'm all for doing something about it. HOWEVER, lets not use studies that don't apply, just like your last point....We are talking about Texas here. Texas doesn't have an overabundance of very clear lakes to begin with, but almost all of our clear lakes have a healthy population of carp. Guess what....almost all of our trophy bass lakes also have very healthy populations of common carp. The bass feed on the fingerling carp every year. If common carp are so detrimental to plants, then why are we stocking grass carp in lakes where there are already plenty of common carp? My point is that while some fish cause problems in some ecosystems, them don't cause problems in others. Besides all that, even if the carp were as bad as you say, bowfishing couldn't even put a dent in the population on a large lake....So yet again I say, don't act like bowfishermen are doing the ecosystem a favor by removing these fish when there wasn't a problem to begin with, and you aren't taking enough out to make a difference anyway. Stop grasping for straws to justify your love of shooting fish, yet not utilizing them.

As for the Gar on Falcon....It's amazing how you only hear what people say when it benefits your sport. This is exactly the way the original rumors about gar got spread. So the bass fishing isn't as good on Falcon, but we are seeing more Gar. So that means the Gar must be eating them? Yes, the Gar play a part of it, but lets look at some real facts that we know....

1. Low water levels have plagued that lake, which causes fish crowding. 
2. Bass fishing efforts increased 135% from 2006-2011.
3. Bass Harvest increased by 95% during that period.
4. Half the lake is in Mexico, and virtually unmanaged. 
5. Seems like the bass fishermen are always complaining about the amount of trophy fish that people don't release back into the lake.

I'm pretty sure they are going to increase the Gar limits on that lake, which is probably a good idea. I've always supported varying limits based on populations. My point is that people need to look at the facts, and see that you can't base your opinion on what a few angry bass fishermen have observed, and then use it to support bowfishing. I realize that Gar will throw up their stomach contents when stressed, but in the gar that did have stomach contents in the study of falcon bass were only around 8%.

Tony, I really don't want to argue about it any more. All I'm asking is for the misinformation to stop. Y'all like to kill for sport, and if your moral compass allows it then so be it. Just don't lie to people and try to make your sport look better by acting bowfishermen are helping out our ecosystem.



> You know what? This is not bungle in the jungle! This forum is for the Bow Fisherman in the 2Cool community I am really getting tired of reading all this ****! I come here to see what people have caught or shot and not what I am reading up above. Take all this BS to the appropriate forum.


Sorry if I offended you, but me and TTG have a little bit of a history. As long as bowfishermen aren't spreading BS, I leave them alone. So, if you don't want me around, then take note of that. I actually really enjoy seeing the pictures of Gar that are shot when they are followed with pictures of the meat on a grill. Gives credit to the ones that say they eat them.


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## Law Dog

Nice, congrats!


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## texas two guns

slimjim1987 said:


> My point was that you can't compare deer and flounder management to Gar management. That's what I meant by "not comparing apples to apples". Am I letting a few bad apples make up my mind? It takes way more than a few bad apples to create the scenes I see every time I go to the river or the lake.
> 
> Come on you sound like my daughter? Always, every time, forever, you can't be serious. If there is that big of a problem where you fish then I need to come down there with some guys in green because it's way out of hand.
> 
> 
> Come on Tony, we both know that none of those studies were done during an active spawn. I shouldn't have to tell you that! I thought you were there and a part of it. It's just another example of trying to use irrelevant studies to support your side. I've said this to you multiple times! We don't have any proof that allowing the harvest of Gar during a spawn would affect the population either way. By the way, Science is science. There isn't right science and wrong science. Your science is not different than my science. We both have the same studies. Bad interpretation and application in real life is where we have a problem.
> 
> I'll buy that. Bad interpretation and application by people that are using emotions to make rules.
> 
> I'm not going to talk about the Big heads and the silvers, since those are a totally different topic and doesn't apply to what we are talking about. Common Carp are considered Naturalized in our state. They have been here over 100 years, and during that time they have lived along side our native fishes just fine. I think you are referencing the shallow lakes up north that have problems with the common carp, and if they have a problem then I'm all for doing something about it. HOWEVER, lets not use studies that don't apply, just like your last point....We are talking about Texas here. Texas doesn't have an overabundance of very clear lakes to begin with, but almost all of our clear lakes have a healthy population of carp. Guess what....almost all of our trophy bass lakes also have very healthy populations of common carp. The bass feed on the fingerling carp every year. If common carp are so detrimental to plants, then why are we stocking grass carp in lakes where there are already plenty of common carp? My point is that while some fish cause problems in some ecosystems, them don't cause problems in others. Besides all that, even if the carp were as bad as you say, bowfishing couldn't even put a dent in the population on a large lake....So yet again I say, don't act like bowfishermen are doing the ecosystem a favor by removing these fish when there wasn't a problem to begin with, and you aren't taking enough out to make a difference anyway. Stop grasping for straws to justify your love of shooting fish, yet not utilizing them.
> 
> This was brought on by the t-shirt comment. There are some instances where it holds water. Is it the most efficient method? Not likely. Can it make a difference? If applied correctly yes. Take Lake Conroe and Lake Jacksonville Grass Carp removal for instance. The R&R guys did a bang up job on Conroe too, I might add. I still wish we could have had a BBQue with us all together though. I don't believe we bowfishermen make enough difference to the rough fish population to ever be detrimental or effective to give that shirt or saying any salt, but then again, a shirts a shirt and sayings are sayings.
> 
> As for the Gar on Falcon....It's amazing how you only hear what people say when it benefits your sport. This is exactly the way the original rumors about gar got spread. So the bass fishing isn't as good on Falcon, but we are seeing more Gar. So that means the Gar must be eating them? Yes, the Gar play a part of it, but lets look at some real facts that we know....
> 
> 1. Low water levels have plagued that lake, which causes fish crowding.
> 2. Bass fishing efforts increased 135% from 2006-2011.
> 3. Bass Harvest increased by 95% during that period.
> 4. Half the lake is in Mexico, and virtually unmanaged.
> 5. Seems like the bass fishermen are always complaining about the amount of trophy fish that people don't release back into the lake.
> 
> I'm pretty sure they are going to increase the Gar limits on that lake, which is probably a good idea. I've always supported varying limits based on populations. My point is that people need to look at the facts, and see that you can't base your opinion on what a few angry bass fishermen have observed, and then use it to support bowfishing. I realize that Gar will throw up their stomach contents when stressed, but in the gar that did have stomach contents in the study of falcon bass were only around 8%.
> 
> I thought a study showed more than that? I have one from Lake Guerrero that shows more than that, but as you say it's not relevant to Texas. I believe that what it shows is that the alligator gar are opportunistic feeders and that they will feed on what ever is most abundant and easy to catch. So my theory is that in low water times, such as you mention, which occurs in the upper reaches of most of our rivers, the gar can have an impact on game fish populations.
> 
> Tony, I really don't want to argue about it any more. All I'm asking is for the misinformation to stop. Y'all like to kill for sport, and if your moral compass allows it then so be it. Just don't lie to people and try to make your sport look better by acting bowfishermen are helping out our ecosystem.
> 
> Slim, I don't think we are arguing anymore. We're sharing our different opinions and I think that is a good thing. Of course it always takes some tit for tat before we really start having a conversation. I wonder why that is?  Yes, we kill for sport and it's a bloody sport. There is no denying that. Yes, our morals allow for it, for whatever reason, but lets don't pretend that it carries over to deer hunting or other sports which we also enjoy, including some R&R fishing.
> 
> Sorry if I offended you, but me and TTG have a little bit of a history. As long as bowfishermen aren't spreading BS, I leave them alone. So, if you don't want me around, then take note of that. I actually really enjoy seeing the pictures of Gar that are shot when they are followed with pictures of the meat on a grill. Gives credit to the ones that say they eat them.


One more punch. So do you assume that all these deer hunters are wasting venison when all you see is the picture of them and the carcass? You can't eat all them horns anyways right?


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## slimjim1987

> Come on you sound like my daughter? Always, every time, forever, you can't be serious. If there is that big of a problem where you fish then I need to come down there with some guys in green because it's way out of hand.


Tony, I'm not trying to make exaggerated claims. I'm not saying there is a huge pile of fish every time I go out, but there is evidence left in varying amounts the majority of the time. Whether it be Gar culled during tournaments, people showing up with boats covered in blood with no fish to show, or fish left at the ramp/floating down the river. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all bowfishermen are like that. I'm not even saying it's the majority. I'm saying it is a major problem, and if the bowfishermen want their image to change then maybe it would be best to take care of the problem on their side of the fence before they try to change the view on ours.



> I'll buy that. Bad interpretation and application by people that are using emotions to make rules.


You view it as a knee jerk/emotional decision, when in reality it was a conservative measure to ensure we could maintain the current recruitment and harvest rates. I'm going to try to explain this the best I can, so please read this carefully. When managing any type of wildlife, the allowable harvest rate has a direct correlation to recruitment, or the number of individuals that survive to maturity/being harvestable. The more recruitment you have, the higher the harvest rate can be. For example, think about the different hunting seasons we have and how they correspond to the reproductive cycles of the animals. Texas Parks and Wildlife has established those seasons to allow maximum recruitment, which allows maximum harvest. Make sense? So, you can take data on the number of breeding individuals each year, and the number harvested each year, and from that they can determine limits, etc. They also don't expect everyone to get a limit, kind of like the same way that airlines overbook flights, since not everyone is going to show up. They also put laws in place to ensure that harvest rates are consistent, and that there are no statistical anomalies, or outlying factors that can skew that data to one extreme or the other. Okay, you know the study that you keep referencing about how we are below the maximum harvest rate? That study provided a lot of useful information, and was performed well. It gave accurate data that gave us insight our harvest rates, and what is maintainable. So, a limit of one gar per day keeps us under the maximum harvest rate, lets say, 99% of the time. I have not actually calculated it out, but you get the idea. The other 1% (an active, significant spawning situation) would be considered a statistical anomaly TO that study. In other words, by allowing harvest during that time, it could render results of the previous study that you mentioned completely useless since the harvest rate could be much higher than the original study showed. As a Biologist who has been trained for, and practiced a lot of research, I wouldn't consider the new law an emotional/knee jerk reaction. I would call it minimizing the number of variables/outliers/anomalies so that we can have confidence in the previous study, and an accurate understanding of our recruitment and harvest rates. That's the best I can explain it. There is no conspiracy here. If you really think about it, it benefits both rod and reel and bowfishermen by ensuring that all the data y'all helped obtain during that study can be used, and not be voided because of a variable being thrown into the equation. Honestly, and I really mean this, I hope what I just explained makes you feel better about the decision that was made.



> This was brought on by the t-shirt comment. There are some instances where it holds water. Is it the most efficient method? Not likely. Can it make a difference? If applied correctly yes. Take Lake Conroe and Lake Jacksonville Grass Carp removal for instance. The R&R guys did a bang up job on Conroe too, I might add. I still wish we could have had a BBQue with us all together though. I don't believe we bowfishermen make enough difference to the rough fish population to ever be detrimental or effective to give that shirt or saying any salt, but then again, a shirts a shirt and sayings are sayings.


I'm not saying that bowfishing can't be utilized to manage carp populations in certain situations, and especially when it comes to triploid grass carp since they don't reproduce. And you are correct, bowfishermen and R&R fishermen did a great job on Conroe to help bring the population down to and optimal level. What I AM saying is that bowfishermen can't justify killing a bunch of common carp and dumping them in a hole in their backyard by saying that they are detrimental to our lakes, or making it sound like they actually have an affect on the population even if they were. I am morally opposed to killing for the sake of killing, with no other purpose. You aren't, and that's fine. But I'm sick of hearing bowfishermen tell people that they kill rough fish to help the environment, when in reality it's a way out of having to explain the wasteful killing that goes on here. If a bowfishermen feels like they have to lie to feel justified, what does that say? Say it like it is, that's all I'm asking for.



> I thought a study showed more than that? I have one from Lake Guerrero that shows more than that, but as you say it's not relevant to Texas. I believe that what it shows is that the alligator gar are opportunistic feeders and that they will feed on what ever is most abundant and easy to catch. So my theory is that in low water times, such as you mention, which occurs in the upper reaches of most of our rivers, the gar can have an impact on game fish populations.


The study I saw of Falcon I'm pretty sure was 8%, and though they said that few fish had stomach contents, I don't know if they actually showed the data for the number. Feel free to post up the study if you have it, since I don't have time to dig it up. I think Falcon is the 6th lake in Texas that we have stomach content data on. The average between all of the others was between 3-5%. I know about the study you are talking about in Mexico, and you are right. I think the average was over 50%. Go back and look at that study and you will see that a lot of those fish didn't have any stomach contents, just like falcon. It would be interesting to see how the numbers lined up between the two different studies. However, Take a look at other available food sources on that lake.

My point on Falcon was that we shouldn't jump to conclusions, and use hearsay as fact to drum up points for one side or the other. Like I said, maybe they are eating more bass, maybe they aren't. But I posted some facts in my previous post that would definitely cause Bass numbers and quality to drop. I think the last electrofishing survey done also showed a lower abundance of bait fish than usual. Did you know that the Mexico side is basically unregulated? There is actually a quite large commercial fishery over there. I was surprised to find that out, and it kinda makes me wonder why we spend so many tax dollars stocking it.

I've said it before....Lakes should be managed individually for Gar. If they are overpopulated, raise the limit! I have no problem with that.



> Slim, I don't think we are arguing anymore. We're sharing our different opinions and I think that is a good thing. Of course it always takes some tit for tat before we really start having a conversation. I wonder why that is? Yes, we kill for sport and it's a bloody sport. There is no denying that. Yes, our morals allow for it, for whatever reason, but lets don't pretend that it carries over to deer hunting or other sports which we also enjoy, including some R&R fishing.


Unfortunately, I feel like a large amount of the tit for tat is my words being twisted into saying something that we both know I didn't mean. I enjoy debating these topics, but I don't enjoy having to go back and clarify a lot of things that I say because I feel like other readers may not understand what I meant.

I would like to extend my apologies if I ever made any comment insinuating that bowfishermen were deer poachers or anything of that sort. I know others on here have made comments like that, and it's not right. I do have concerns as to what message we are sending to our kids when we don't utilize our kills for a legitimate purpose, but I don't believe that bowfishermen are the same ones that go out and night with a spotlight and shoot deer.



> One more punch. So do you assume that all these deer hunters are wasting venison when all you see is the picture of them and the carcass? You can't eat all them horns anyways right?


I hope you are being sarcastic. I'm not asking for people to post up pictures of meat on the grill, or of them cleaning gar. I just like hearing people say that they saved the meat. Makes me feel better, and gives me assurance that there are more people eating them then I think. Not to mention, I see how many deer show up at the processing facility. You know, a brisket from a steer is one of the worst cuts of meat there is. If you sliced a piece of and tried to grill it, you would be very dissapointed. However, if you cook it right it's a wonderful thing. Both Gar and Carp can be cooked to something not only edible, but enjoyable. I think most people just don't put the time or research into doing it right.

One last note, to help everyone understand me...I don't want gar placed under a 20 year protection plan, which I think was mentioned by a previous poster, or anything like that. That would be stupid. Gar have been hunted for thousands of years as a food source. To have a healthy fishery, there must be an apex predator. Besides Alligators, Gar don't have very many predators once they reach a certain age besides humans. I am all for management, harvest, and utilization of our resources.


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## texas two guns

Outstanding. I think we see eye to eye, mostly. It's the blanket statements that we (all of us really) make that puts us at odds. But when it's really discussed rationally, we find that we are all sportsmen and are a lot alike. Although, we have those one or two things that we agree to disagree on. I am not opposed to regulated harvest, most of us aren't. What we were opposed too was 1 a day. It was originally proposed to close it completely. We felt and still feel that 1 a day is too stringent and unnecessary. We also feel that closing during the spawn is unnecessary, especially with a one a day rule already in place. And yes your explanation made since to me. 

Speaking of regulated harvest. Let me ask you this. Since you don't oppose us eating what we kill, why not allow us to take catfish? Even at a reduced limit. Bear in mind though, that catfish showing up in these dumpings would no less tolerable to us than the dumpings now. We despise either. By us, I mean the respectful bowfishermen.


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## slimjim1987

I think their concerns on the catfish was that they were worried they wouldn't be able to manage the size of what was harvested, since catch and release wasn't an option. I may be wrong though...I don't really remember what all was said.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with it. Maybe if they lowered the limit some to make up for the inability of a less experienced person to judge size? If I was bowfishing, I wouldn't want to have wonder if what I was shooting was legal. Kinda like antler restrictions on deer.....I've got one deer that I'm pretty sure is 13", but I'm afraid to risk it.

I really don't know much about this subject to be honest. Have y'all proposed bringing it back with a lower limit? If so, what was their response? If you don't want to derail this topic, you can PM me.


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## texas two guns

Nothing proposed. We have not really found a friend on the commission that would offer to propose this for us right now.


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## outlawguide

I got a idea just tell TPWD to let bowfisherman shoot all species of fish just like fisherman, then we wont be shooting the trash fish !! All my clients would rather shoot redfish over drum or stingrays, catfish over carp ? As for big gars i dont think they are in short numbers. I see lots of big ones in saltwater and fresh water but i do feel they need to be protected. But I see no reason what so ever not to allow bowfisherman to shoot redfish in texas.


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## Paleo Dave

What entitles someone to make a living shooting fish to start with? 

We have too much technology at our disposal and too many people fishing to allow unrestricted harvest of fish. Including wasting natural resources like gar, stingrays and drum by shooting them with compound bows.

I'll go along with invasive species like carp but that's all I think should be legal to bow hunt.


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## texas two guns

The same thing that entitles someone to make a living Rod and Reel fishing. It's a service. You can save money, equipment and time by hiring a guide instead of dragging your own boat from out of state into waters you don't know. Also, if your new to the sport or encounter new species, I guide can stop you from messing up. 

Besides, no one is asking for unrestricted harvest of sport fish. We should be held to the same "bag" as anyone else, perhaps even less, if they are that worried about it. Even a bigger minimum size to keep from having the "accidents" that concern people.


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## CatfishingHarry

*Awesome Gar!!!!*

Captain, I took my son fishing and he wanted to try gar meat, He liked it, its all in how you make it up, We live in the pasadena area and if you ever get some that you dont plan on cleaning and eating, hook us up if yall dont mind, We would greatly appreciate it, Thats an awesome Gar!! Must a been a hell of a fight! One day I would like to catch one when my son is camping with his Boy Scout Troop and let them all try it as well. Thanks for the picture and keep on havin fun!! catfishingharry


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## dudlbugr

*Gar effects on game fish*

Gar is fine eating, hot out of the grease... Or mixed in with gravy. Gar balls and Gravy.. Don't have the recipe, but I'm sure Google does... 
Years ago, they used to have a Gar Rodeo out of Jack's Bay Arkansas, on the White River. Over there, they used special made jugs to catch the gar, then would somehow connect the line on the jug to a rod and reel, remove the jug, and let sport-fishermen fight the gar... And I'm told that they release every gar with a fresh chunk of 38 caliber lead in his head...

This was all based on the "fact" that gar eat their body weight in game fish every two days. Which would mean that the 200 lb. gar pictured somewhere above was eating 100 lbs. of crappie, bass, bream, trout, whatever, everyday...

Notice I say "fact." That seems kinda far fetched to me... Anybody here a gar biologist? 
How much does a gar eat?


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## dudlbugr

dudlbugr said:


> Anybody here a gar biologist?
> How much does a gar eat?


As it turns out, my best friend from high school is a gar biologist... He has done extensive research on Alligator Gar, in Arkansas... Pretty sure he wouldn't approve of this thread... Used to hunt, fish, and drink beer with him back in the day, but kinda think he might of gone environmental... Haven't talked to him in years, but... I sent him an email, to get his expert opinion...


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## texas two guns

His name isn't' Duke is it?


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## dudlbugr

No, his name is Adams. 
He said that there's no research that he has found that studied amount of a gar's diet. Although, he said they are scavengers and predators, and will literally eat anything. Fish, birds, crawfish, and there has even been one documented case of a small diesel engine part found in gar stomach! 
So... I'm thinking that the Gar Rodeo was done in an effort to remove the gar from Arkansas water, by local consent...

By the way... I don't oppose shooting them! Y'all have fun!


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## Bottomsup

I dont kill anything just to kill. I understand if pesting of a creature needs to be done like hogs and such but it doesnt have to be waisted. There are many people who struggle to buy food or worse. My dad used to shoot a truckload of carp and gar back in the day then drive to east side of town where people would come running to take all of the fish. I enjoy bowfishing but I will not dump it back in the water.


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## huntman77

That's a good fish Capt. B-Rig


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## pescador1

Falcon Lake has huge numbers of giant gar. We watched 2 commercial gar fishermen with 6 gar caught on jug lines. The gar weighted about 60 pounds each. The limit has been raised to 5 per person due to the fact that they are destroying the bass. Go kill some there.


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## beubanks

*Commercial limit cut to one*

Best thing that happened to the gar population for you guys who are concerned about there numbers was cutting the commercial limit to one per day. The commercial guys were killing truck loads of them. Way to go parks and wildlife!!!!


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## Gatorgar

*Freshwater pork chop*

2 ft no bigger
Hull it, do not get water on it
Wipe it with a towel.
Cut it into steaks 
Salt, pepper, and flour it throw it in the grease and fry just as you would a pork chop.
You will throw rocks at other fish.


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