# Willet



## Anderson Guide Service

I checked out the new Willet today at Rock The Dock. Good looking boat and crazy light (hull is 240lbs if I remember right). It was pretty stable for what it is. If you are looking for a really stupid skinny boat I would check it out (if build time is not a concern). Pretty specialized boat also. I wouldn't want to always have to run down Blackjack Peninsula in it. Then again I have run down that shore when a 31 Bertram wouldn't have been big enough for me!!


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## Ish

if that thing is truly 100% carbon fiber it's gonna turn out to be even more dangerous than the tilt.


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## Popperdave

Brochure looks great and that is a very lite boat(240lb). So what's the price tag? And top speed?


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## Ish

Popperdave said:


> So what's the price tag?


the cost is brittleness, not something those in the know want in a boat.


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## Anderson Guide Service

Popperdave said:


> Brochure looks great and that is a very lite boat(240lb). So what's the price tag? And top speed?


They said 35k out the door. I didnâ€™t ask about the speed. Would guess cruise around 25 and top maybe 30.


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## Anderson Guide Service

Popperdave said:


> Brochure looks great and that is a very lite boat(240lb). So what's the price tag? And top speed?


It is stupid light. Stability is good but it is what I call slippery because it weighs so little. Not much boat in the water to want to keep it from sliding around when you walk. Hope that makes sense


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## Anderson Guide Service

Ish said:


> the cost is brittleness, not something those in the know want in a boat.


We get it. You donâ€™t like Newwater. Easy killer


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## Ish

Anderson Guide Service said:


> We get it. You donâ€™t like Newwater. Easy killer


brittleness in 100% carbon fiber laminates has nothing to do with what i like or donâ€™t like, sport.

if i were considering the boat and i knew nothing about the inherent problems with 100% carbon fiber in that application iâ€™d appreciate someone pointing it out to me so i could make an informed decision.

frankly i was surprised that a â€œguideâ€ neglected to point that out, but i initially withheld that comment.


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## Capt. Kris Kelley

Ish said:


> brittleness in 100% carbon fiber laminates has nothing to do with what i like or donâ€™t like, sport.
> 
> if i were considering the boat and i knew nothing about the inherent problems with 100% carbon fiber in that application iâ€™d appreciate someone pointing it out to me so i could make an informed decision.
> 
> frankly i was surprised that a â€œguideâ€ neglected to point that out, but i initially withheld that comment.


Ish, let me help you with Carbon Fiber and consider that you might want to take another look. We have a lot of experience with Carbon Fiber "obviously". To say it's "brittle" and dismiss it would be like dismissing the use of steel in construction "because it's heavy". I'm sure anyone in cutting edge nautical racing, aircraft design and their respective design teams would find your comments "interesting" to say the least.

Carbon fiber or not, I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss Tim Clancey and the team at NewWater Boatworks.

Carbon Fiber Reference Material

http://www.quora.com/If-carbon-fiber-is-brittle-why-is-it-being-used-in-airplane-fuselages

Aerial acrobatics to Airboats *HERE*

And what exactly do you consider to be "INHERENT PROBLEMS" in this application? My initial concern would be attachments, drilling, screwing anything to it, etc. That might take some studying. One thing is for certain, this stuff takes massive abuse at extreme loads. The only airboat propellers we've ever seen fail actually put a company under but it was short-lived and specific to that company due to design flaw.


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## Ish

That guy said:


> Ish, let me help you with Carbon Fiber and consider that you might want to take another look. We have a lot of experience with Carbon Fiber "obviously". To say it's "brittle" and dismiss it would be like dismissing the use of steel in construction "because it's heavy".


 While youâ€™re â€œobviouslyâ€ comparing apples and oranges, keep in mind that steels used in construction are alloysâ€¦they are typically not 100% of anything. There is a reason most modern construction projects are not made out of 100% iron.

Iâ€™ve not dismissed carbon fiber, as it is a wonderful material. Iâ€™ve had several boats made with carbon fiber, but I would never buy a boat made of â€œ100% carbon fiberâ€.

Carbon fiber set in resin is very light and very strong, but it is also very brittle. There is a difference between strength and brittleness, and I assumed everyone knows that.



That guy said:


> I'm sure anyone in cutting edge nautical racing, aircraft design and their respective design teams would find your comments "interesting" to say the least.


 I donâ€™t know what that means. Anyone involved in those endeavors with experience with 100% carbon fibers set in resin knows exactly what Iâ€™m talking about, and thatâ€™s why they make resin-infused parts subject to impacts out of a composite of several types of fibers rather than just 100% carbon.

Iâ€™m not real sure how thatâ€™s â€œinterestingâ€, but whatever.



That guy said:


> Carbon fiber or not, I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss Tim Clancey and the team at NewWater Boatworks.


 Iâ€™ve not dismissed Clanceyâ€™s boatsâ€¦he builds quality boats. Some of the designs (which have put peoplesâ€™ lives in danger in incidents in the past) have let me scratching my head, but from a manufacturing standpoint they are well-made.

Iâ€™m thinking Clancey is smart enough to not market a boat made of 100% carbon fiber and that that claim is not â€œ100%â€ true, but I could be wrong.



That guy said:


> Carbon Fiber Reference Material
> 
> http://www.quora.com/If-carbon-fiber-is-brittle-why-is-it-being-used-in-airplane-fuselages


 Regarding that link, did you actually read the article?

The author bolsters my point that carbon fiber *is* brittle when set in resin. This is why the aerospace industry the author referenced often uses composites of other fiber materials (such as those mentioned in the article) when the part may be subject to abuse. You â€œobviouslyâ€ understand what a composite is, right?

By abuse Iâ€™m referring to impacts, specifically.



That guy said:


> Aerial acrobatics to Airboats *HERE*


 Re: that link, subject any of those 100% carbon fiber propellers to even a slight impact and watch what happens.

You donâ€™t think thereâ€™s a reason they donâ€™t make boat props and fanboat hulls out of 100% carbon fiber?



That guy said:


> And what exactly do you consider to be "INHERENT PROBLEMS" in this application? My initial concern would be attachments, drilling, screwing anything to it, etc. That might take some studying.


 I thought I was pretty clear about the inherent problems in building a 100% carbon fiber boat...brittleness and the failure problems that can cause. If that flew past you Iâ€™m not sure what else I can say to make it any clearer.



That guy said:


> One thing is for certain, this stuff takes massive abuse at extreme loads.


 What specifically are your referring to when you say â€œmassive abuseâ€?

Spinning a prop at high rpms with steep pitch is "obviously" not abuse when that is what the prop is specifically designed for.

Would a little ol' dime tossed into your fan blades while they're run-up at full speed constitute "massive abuse"? Surely tossing a tiny, harmless little dime in there would not constitute "massive abuse", would it? 
 



That guy said:


> The only airboat propellers we've ever seen fail actually put a company under but it was short-lived and specific to that company due to design flaw.


 As the article you cited points out, using 100% carbon fibers set in resin is definitely a design flaw in parts that are subject to impacts.

But thanks for your â€œhelpâ€.


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## Capt. Kris Kelley

Our airboat propellers will take a wrench through the fan and still get you back to the ramp. It might be ugly but they just dont "explode" as you think. You'll end up with the leading edge torn off, balance issues, and possibly, possibly a cut or penetration of the blade but they don't shatter. They are reportedly a "composite", however. I've got a call into Patty at Whirlwind to see what the make-up is exactly if she'll share.

The blade failures were produced by a company called Power Shift. They had these massive wide big bite blades necked down to nothing to the knuckle in the hub designed for 600 horses. They were breaking at the neck....go figure. That's a design flaw, not a material flaw.

And I think if you re-read the article it talks about material failures at certain loads. Let's look at our options and reference. They don't make airboat blades out of aluminum or fiberglass for a reason. So, extrapolating forward, if we were to set a hypothetical test where we're going to plow a skiff into a piling at 20 knots. You've got a couple of choices of hull type, glass, aluminum, and 100% Carbon Fiber. I'll drive the Carbon Fiber boat and we'll be looking for volunteers to run the other two IMHO.

*Carbon Fiber or Composites *

Either way, the stuff has got to be an absolute pain in the neck to work with and let's say "it's the best thing since sliced bread", well, at what cost? My concerns wouldn't be so much centered around failure due to impact, but maintenance costs. I just don't think your average Joe at a glass shop is going to be able to repair this or work on it. I could be wrong, however. You want to pop an extra rod rack in, add a cleat, drill a hole.....yea that's got me a little hesitant.

Clancey puts food on the table turning out something that is a quest for "perfection". I just don't think he jerked 100% carbon fiber off the rack for a "test" product....LOL I'm sure there are give and takes, must have looked at composites and didn't go that route. Or, they're using the term "100" Carbon Fiber as a broad term for simplicity/marketing purposes when it's actually a composite material. Joe blow on the street wouldn't know one from the other more than likely.

Glad I could help, thanks for the olive branch...


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## Ish

Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> Our airboat propellers will take a wrench through the fan and still get you back to the ramp. It might be ugly but they just dont "explode" as you think. You'll end up with the leading edge torn off, balance issues, and possibly, possibly a cut or penetration of the blade but they don't shatter.


i never said that they "explode". you did.

i get that a "look how tough my fanboat is" ******* is going to disagree, but that is what any normal person would consider a catastrophic failure.

now, imagine whatâ€™s gonna happen if your hull hits something larger than a wrenchâ€¦

a fanboat prop is not charged with keeping the occupants afloat and out of the water. a hull is.

that leading edge that "got torn off" or that "penetration" is now a very serious situation when it happens in the hull.

hitting debris/oyster/sand bars/what have you at speed can cause catastrophic failures in a 100% carbon fiber hull, not just cracks in the gel. if i'm out on the water miles from home, no thanks.



Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> They are reportedly a "composite", however. I've got a call into Patty at Whirlwind to see what the make-up is exactly if she'll share.


so again you're not comparing apples to apples. you're admitting that the fanboat blades are not 100% carbon fiber, yet you're using them to compare durability in a conversation about the brittleness in 100% carbon fiber parts.

that could be considered disingenuous to say the least.

but i'm sure patty appreciates you bothering her on a saturday about irrelevant, trivial matters.



Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> The blade failures were produced by a company called Power Shift. They had these massive wide big bite blades necked down to nothing to the knuckle in the hub designed for 600 horses. They were breaking at the neck....go figure. That's a design flaw, not a material flaw.


 we're not talking about material flaws.

PowerShift had a design flaw, but it was a different kind of design flaw. using the wrong materials for the wrong application when designing a part is also design flaw.



Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> They don't make airboat blades out of aluminum or fiberglass for a reason.


right, and that reason is because you can build a lighter, more efficient, higher-performing prop out of carbon fiber. itâ€™s not because they canâ€™t build them out of aluminum or fiberglass (or wood for that matter) because those materials are not durable enoughâ€¦they are.

again, a fan prop failure out on the water is not nearly as serious a problem as a hull failure out on the water.



Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> So, extrapolating forward, if we were to set a hypothetical test where we're going to plow a skiff into a piling at 20 knots. You've got a couple of choices of hull type, glass, aluminum, and 100% Carbon Fiber. I'll drive the Carbon Fiber boat and we'll be looking for volunteers to run the other two IMHO.


why on God's green earth you'd want to intentionally drive a hull into a piling is beyond me. it wouldn't accomplish anything we don't already know.

please let me know when you're gonna do that. i want to be there to see it.



Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> Either way, the stuff has got to be an absolute pain in the neck to work with and let's say "it's the best thing since sliced bread", well, at what cost? My concerns wouldn't be so much centered around failure due to impact, but maintenance costs.


short of damage from a scratch, etc. from user error, there are no maintenance costs on properly-made carbon fiber parts...unless there is a failure.



Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> I just don't think your average Joe at a glass shop is going to be able to repair this or work on it. I could be wrong, however. You want to pop an extra rod rack in, add a cleat, drill a hole.....yea that's got me a little hesitant.


the process is by and large very similar to working with e-glass, it's just that you have to use epoxy because the resin doesn't actually penetrate the fibers like poly does with e-glass. the only real downside to carbon fiber is it's brittleness, which was my point all along.



Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> Or, they're using the term "100" Carbon Fiber as a broad term for simplicity/marketing purposes when it's actually a composite material. Joe blow on the street wouldn't know one from the other more than likely.


 got it, the term is being used to deceive ignorant consumers. that says a lot.

sounds like his only real problem are the people who do know the difference and aren't afraid to talk about it.

its saturday in may...why aren't you out with knucklehead sports herding redfish in your fanboat?


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## Capt. Kris Kelley

Ish said:


> i never said that they "explode". you did.


When you imply "brittleness" in a part moving 2,500 RPM's and then throw in an impact scenario, I didn't imagine you were implying "limping" away from the scene.



Ish said:


> i get that a "look how tough my fanboat is" ******* is going to disagree, but that is what any normal person would consider a catastrophic failure.





Ish said:


> now, imagine whatâ€™s gonna happen if your hull hits something larger than a wrenchâ€¦


Ergo, that's where my scenario regarding the test drive into a piling came from. Here you suggest it, later you dismiss it as being ludicrous...trying to follow your reasoning "bro".



Ish said:


> a fanboat prop is not charged with keeping the occupants afloat and out of the water. a hull is.


A fanboat prop is at times and under many scenarios charged a great deal with keeping the occupants afloat. No power, big chop, you're going down or at least out to sea in a hurry.



Ish said:


> that leading edge that "got torn off" or that "penetration" is now a very serious situation when it happens in the hull.


As I indicated, "at what load" are you going to get Carbon Fiber to fail. I think you're refering to "plasticity" or lack there of.



Ish said:


> hitting debris/oyster/sand bars/what have you at speed can cause catastrophic failures in a 100% carbon fiber hull, not just cracks in the gel. if i'm out on the water miles from home, no thanks.


I'd like to see them.



Ish said:


> so again you're not comparing apples to apples. you're admitting that the fanboat blades are not 100% carbon fiber, yet you're using them to compare durability in a conversation about the brittleness in 100% carbon fiber parts. that could be considered disingenuous to say the least.


No, that could be considered to be "honesty". Something I question among some folks "priority" list.



Ish said:


> but i'm sure patty appreciates you bothering her on a saturday about irrelevant, trivial matters.


They are experts in Carbon Fiber technology and we are old friends and I'm sure she has some "wings on her facility" that we paid for.



Ish said:


> we're not talking about material flaws.


Then I mis-read you. You stated 100% Carbon Fiber has "brittleness", something not wanted in a boat. Of course we know Carbon Fiber doesn't have any brittle characteristics until impregnated with resin. Then afterwards there may be some brittleness but at what extraordinary loads would that brittleness become "an issue"? I suggest a much higher load than aluminum or fiberglass.



Ish said:


> PowerShift had a design flaw, but it was a different kind of design flaw. using the wrong materials for the wrong application when designing a part is also design flaw.


I'm sure we'll never know the "whole story". It would seem to be completely engineering to me.



Ish said:


> right, and that reason is because you can build a lighter, more efficient, higher-performing prop out of carbon fiber. itâ€™s not because they canâ€™t build them out of aluminum or fiberglass (or wood for that matter) because those materials are not durable enoughâ€¦they are.


Durable enough, not hardly.



Ish said:


> again, a fan prop failure out on the water is not nearly as serious a problem as a hull failure out on the water.


I recognize airboats are not your area of expertise so I'm being gentle. Just know that any mechanical failure in an airboat and especially prop failure is a quick ticket to real problems.



Ish said:


> why on God's green earth you'd want to intentionally drive a hull into a piling is beyond me. it wouldn't accomplish anything we don't already know. Please let me know when you're gonna do that. i want to be there to see it.


That was a hypothetical, you answered my question.



Ish said:


> short of damage from a scratch, etc. from user error, there are no maintenance costs on properly-made carbon fiber parts...unless there is a failure.


That's good to know.



Ish said:


> the process is by and large very similar to working with e-glass, it's just that you have to use epoxy because the resin doesn't actually penetrate the fibers like poly does with e-glass. the only real downside to carbon fiber is it's brittleness, which was my point all along.
> 
> got it, the term is being used to deceive ignorant consumers. that says a lot.


That was something I threw out as a possibility. The bottom line of any boat manufacturer is to sell their product and have lots of happy customers. Getting down into the weeds on a brochure isn't one of them.



Ish said:


> sounds like his only real problem are the people who do know the difference and aren't afraid to talk about it.


More likely his real problem is having enough structural entities to move his $ around to keep the tax man away.



Ish said:


> its saturday in may...why aren't you out with knucklehead sports herding redfish in your fanboat?


The water already had smoke coming off it, It's Warriors Weekend and Babe's on The Bay. We've got a fleet out there jerking lips and I get to play with all the balls up in the air. Free up some time, let's go for a ride, sip a cool one "and make the cast".


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## Anderson Guide Service

All I can say is Tim builds a great boat. There are A LOT of guides who run Stilts and put hundreds of hours a year on them without issue. Can it be somewhat dangerous? Sure it can as all boats can if not run correctly. It does what it is designed to do extremely well though. With all boats there is give and take. There are other manufacturers that are using carbon fiber. I would seriously doubt that Tim would stake his reputation as possibly the best boat builder in Texas on a material that might catastrophically fail. 

Regard air boat props, Kris is right about them being tough. There is stuff going through the cage all the time. I personally have never seen one fail and I used to spend a ton of time on them during duck season.


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## Fishsurfer

Captain Kris, there is a section for guides to advertise but the banter between you and Ish make enjoyable reading. Ish, it looks like he is using Carbon fiber Nomex Honeycomb core sheets in the construction. This may be for ribbing but could also be used to enforce the bottom. Also by using alternating levels of epoxy resins with different elastic properties in the "sandwich" layers he could get some greater flexibility. It would however be easier to use a composite like a fiberglass carbon fiber weave or hybrid Zylon type fabric to get some level of flexibility. He obviously has some form of proprietary construction since the cost of this small boat is so high. After all Newwater will ultimately be responsible for failures in the hull.


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## Capt. Kris Kelley

Fishsurfer said:


> Captain Kris, there is a section for guides to advertise but the banter between you and Ish make enjoyable reading. Ish, it looks like he is using Carbon fiber Nomex Honeycomb core sheets in the construction. This may be for ribbing but could also be used to enforce the bottom. Also by using alternating levels of epoxy resins with different elastic properties in the "sandwich" layers he could get some greater flexibility. It would however be easier to use a composite like a fiberglass carbon fiber weave or hybrid Zylon type fabric to get some level of flexibility. He obviously has some form of proprietary construction since the cost of this small boat is so high. After all Newwater will ultimately be responsible for failures in the hull.


Thanks bud, I appreciate the encouraging words and the comic relief. It's gonna get a whole lot funnier if I can get him down for a run on the water. I'm gonna put some "Triple Figure 8, Bayou Runs Through It, Double Hauling Bull Whip Action" on him.....and then we'll go Fly Fishing....LOL.


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## Capt. Kris Kelley

Anderson Guide Service said:


> All I can say is Tim builds a great boat. There are A LOT of guides who run Stilts and put hundreds of hours a year on them without issue. Can it be somewhat dangerous? Sure it can as all boats can if not run correctly. It does what it is designed to do extremely well though. With all boats there is give and take. There are other manufacturers that are using carbon fiber. I would seriously doubt that Tim would stake his reputation as possibly the best boat builder in Texas on a material that might catastrophically fail.
> 
> Regard air boat props, Kris is right about them being tough. There is stuff going through the cage all the time. I personally have never seen one fail and I used to spend a ton of time on them during duck season.


Well Spoken bud.


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## Ish

Capt. Fanboy said:


> Ergo, that's where my scenario regarding the test drive into a piling came from. Here you suggest it, later you dismiss it as being ludicrous...trying to follow your reasoning "bro".


 Apples and oranges. Iâ€™m referring to accidentally striking unseen objects. Intentionally driving into something is completely different and is ludicrous.

Sorry if that reasoning is tough to follow, but I don't know that it can be articulated any clearer.



Capt. Fanboy said:


> A fanboat prop is at times and under many scenarios charged a great deal with keeping the occupants afloat. No power, big chop, you're going down or at least out to sea in a hurry.


 A hull is *always* charged with keeping occupants afloat.

A boat can float with a hole in the prop.



Capt. Fanboy said:


> No, that could be considered to be "honesty". Something I question among some folks "priority" list.


 Heh, â€œhonestyâ€ after you got called out on it.



Capt. Fanboy said:


> Then I mis-read you. You stated 100% Carbon Fiber has "brittleness", something not wanted in a boat. Of course we know Carbon Fiber doesn't have any brittle characteristics until impregnated with resin. Then afterwards there may be some brittleness but at what extraordinary loads would that brittleness become "an issue"? I suggest a much higher load than aluminum or fiberglass.


 Yeah, reading is tough.

How many boats made of carbon fiber are not impregnated with resin? Exactly.

Only someone ignorant of all three materials would argue aluminum or fiberglass are more brittle than resin-set 100% carbon fiber, but have at it.



Capt. Fanboy said:


> Durable enough, not hardly.


 Yeah, because props werenâ€™t made of those materials and used successfully for decades before the advent of carbon fiber.

Uh-huh.



Capt. Fanboy said:


> I recognize airboats are not your area of expertise so I'm being gentle. Just know that any mechanical failure in an airboat and especially prop failure is a quick ticket to real problems.


 Yes, just as I recognize fly-fishing and laminates are not your area of expertise and Iâ€™ve been gentle.

Just know that a failure in the hull of any kind of boat is an even quicker ticket to even bigger problems.



Capt. Fanboy said:


> The bottom line of any boat manufacturer is to sell their product and have lots of happy customers. Getting down into the weeds on a brochure isn't one of them.


 That may be true for the googan and fanboat market, but anyone who understands the technical poling skiff market knows that those sorts of customers always get into the weeds. If that werenâ€™t true theyâ€™d never ask questions about materials, resins, bagging, hull slap, weight, draft, range, props, etcâ€¦ Never heard of a skiff guy whoâ€™s not getting off into those weeds.

Perhaps you have to know the market inside out to understand that. Someone who runs fanboats and is new to the fly-fishing crowd likely doesnâ€™t yet, and thatâ€™s understandable.

And intentionally deceiving customers doesnâ€™t typically result in having lots of happy ones. I donâ€™t think Iâ€™d be dismissing deception as â€œgetting down into the weeds on a brochureâ€, but thatâ€™s just me.



Capt. Fanboy said:


> Free up some time, let's go for a ride, sip a cool one "and make the cast".


 Yeah, Iâ€™ll meet you down at the dock. We can go burn the back lakes and herd-up a whole mess of redfish. I can't wait!!


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## Ish

Fishsurfer said:


> Captain Kris, there is a section for guides to advertise but the banter between you and Ish make enjoyable reading. Ish, it looks like he is using Carbon fiber Nomex Honeycomb core sheets in the construction. This may be for ribbing but could also be used to enforce the bottom. Also by using alternating levels of epoxy resins with different elastic properties in the "sandwich" layers he could get some greater flexibility. It would however be easier to use a composite like a fiberglass carbon fiber weave or hybrid Zylon type fabric to get some level of flexibility. He obviously has some form of proprietary construction since the cost of this small boat is so high. After all Newwater will ultimately be responsible for failures in the hull.


so what's he laminating onto the coring material?


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## Ish

Anderson Guide Service said:


> All I can say is Tim builds a great boat. There are A LOT of guides who run Stilts and put hundreds of hours a year on them without issue. Can it be somewhat dangerous? Sure it can as all boats can if not run correctly. It does what it is designed to do extremely well though. With all boats there is give and take. There are other manufacturers that are using carbon fiber. I would seriously doubt that Tim would stake his reputation as possibly the best boat builder in Texas on a material that might catastrophically fail.
> 
> Regard air boat props, Kris is right about them being tough. There is stuff going through the cage all the time. I personally have never seen one fail and I used to spend a ton of time on them during duck season.


Of course they're tough. I'm not sure anyone questioned that. But I am sure that it's irrelevant to this conversation.

how often have you seen a sand bar, oyster bar, or any other submerged debris go through the cage?


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## Ish

and guys, don't get me wrong...i am hoping and praying that newwater comes out with a "100% carbon fiber" boat and so are his competitors.


i think that would be fantastic. :smile:


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## Capt. Kris Kelley

Ish said:


> Yeah, Iâ€™ll meet you down at the dock. We can go burn the back lakes and herd-up a whole mess of redfish. I can't wait!!


Nah, we'll take one of our skiffs. Wouldn't want you to get your feet wet...


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## Trout-Nomenal

I've done some extensive research on the difference between Kevlar, carbon fiber & e-glass. My research lead me to go with Kevlar on my skiff that's currently being built.

Yes, carbon fiber is extremely stiff and an extremely light weight product. But carbon fiber is very sensitive to fatigue and will fail catastrophically without showing any signs of distress and it's also very conductive.

So I understand where Ish is coming from. I wouldn't want to be on a boat miles away from dry land and the hull has a catastrophic failure from an impact of a submerge object in the water.

See the attached link for an in-depth comparison of Kevlar, carbon fiber & e-glass.

http://www.christinedemerchant.com/carbon-kevlar-glass-comparison.html


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## Anderson Guide Service

The thing that I wonder about is glass, kevlar, carbon fiber, how much are you really saving in weight? From what I understand the weight comes from the resins not the matting material. If you want a super light skiff then plywood composite would be the way to go from what I have read. Obviously you couldn't get the smooth curves glass gives but it is much lighter. Some interesting reading on bateau and glen-l.


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## Ish

Anderson Guide Service said:


> The thing that I wonder about is glass, kevlar, carbon fiber, how much are you really saving in weight? From what I understand the weight comes from the resins not the matting material. If you want a super light skiff then plywood composite would be the way to go from what I have read. Obviously you couldn't get the smooth curves glass gives but it is much lighter. Some interesting reading on bateau and glen-l.


resin weight is reduced (and more evenly distributed) by bagging the part.

i may be mistaken but while wood coring (if sealed up properly) is great, i believe foam coring is lighter. however, foam coring does not absorb resin like wood does, and that can lead to a whole different set of problems.

with certain types of modern foam coring those problems can be overcome, but that is a whole other conversation.


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## UltralightBoatworksLLC

*hmmm*

What weighs more?

1. 17 ounce glass cloth
2. 17 ounce carbon cloth
3. 17 ounce Kevlar cloth

Answer - they weigh the same, it's a measurement of mat per square yard.

What weighs more? (using the same type of resin lay-up, either hand, resin infusion or hand/bagging)

1. 17 ounce glass cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
2. 17 ounce carbon cloth sandwiching1/2" thick 8lb foam core
3. 17 ounce Kevlar cloth sandwiching 1/2" 8lb foam core

Answer - Kevlar might be slightly lighter as it doesn't absorb resin as well as carbon or glass. But that can also be problematic as it can give you dry areas and composite failure.

What weighs more and is the same tensile strength? (using the same type of resin lay-up, either hand, resin infusion or hand/bagging)

1. 17 ounce glass cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
2. 12 ounce carbon cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
3. 12 ounce Kevlar cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core

Answer - probably the carbon, but to a degree that you would barely notice in a small skiff versus Kevlar. On a small skiff I bet you'd save 20-50 lbs, maybe.

Now the tricky part of skiff hull laminate design.

*What's more likely to fail first due to shear strength or composite crushing?*

example dock dings, large fat guys (like Ish, no disrespect to Ish as we somewhat know each other so I can say things like that and still be professional) stepping on decks coming off of poling/casting platforms or oysters.

1. 17 ounce glass cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
2. 12 ounce carbon cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
3. 12 ounce Kevlar cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core

I'll let the mass make this choice. But remember to really save weight in a small skiff you have to dumb down the "Ounce" of cloth which takes less resin also. You can get the 2-4 times stiffer and lighter composites buy going with thicker foam core composites like 3/4" thick foam core for decks or even 1" and use lighter ounce cloth.

The moral of the story, if a skiff builder is using laminates less than 17 ounce in hulls and decks then they are asking for trouble down the road. Using lighter laminates in bulkheads and other areas isn't an issue. If the skiff has a foam core hull and deck.

People must remember "Carbon" isn't always lighter, it's just stronger in tension, so you can use thinner materials to get the same strength.

Another note - I've tied a simple knot in a tow of carbon (a strand that makes up carbon mat) and pulled both ends really hard and fast and the carbon sheared itself.

Cutting carbon mat with scissors is easy, glass is next while Kevlar will dull scissors quick.

Last question.

*What sexier to the ear?*

1. Carbon fiber skiff
2. Fiberglass skiff
3. Aluminum skiff

Here endeth the lesson. - Brian S. Little


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## tail-chaser

UltralightBoatworksLLC said:


> What weighs more?
> 
> 1. 17 ounce glass cloth
> 2. 17 ounce carbon cloth
> 3. 17 ounce Kevlar cloth
> 
> Answer - they weigh the same, it's a measurement of mat per square yard.
> 
> What weighs more? (using the same type of resin lay-up, either hand, resin infusion or hand/bagging)
> 
> 1. 17 ounce glass cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 2. 17 ounce carbon cloth sandwiching1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 3. 17 ounce Kevlar cloth sandwiching 1/2" 8lb foam core
> 
> Answer - Kevlar might be slightly lighter as it doesn't absorb resin as well as carbon or glass. But that can also be problematic as it can give you dry areas and composite failure.
> 
> What weighs more and is the same tensile strength? (using the same type of resin lay-up, either hand, resin infusion or hand/bagging)
> 
> 1. 17 ounce glass cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 2. 12 ounce carbon cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 3. 12 ounce Kevlar cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 
> Answer - probably the carbon, but to a degree that you would barely notice in a small skiff versus Kevlar. On a small skiff I bet you'd save 20-50 lbs, maybe.
> 
> Now the tricky part of skiff hull laminate design.
> 
> *What's more likely to fail first due to shear strength or composite crushing?*
> 
> example dock dings, large fat guys (like Ish, no disrespect to Ish as we somewhat know each other so I can say things like that and still be professional) stepping on decks coming off of poling/casting platforms or oysters.
> 
> 1. 17 ounce glass cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 2. 12 ounce carbon cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 3. 12 ounce Kevlar cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 
> I'll let the mass make this choice. But remember to really save weight in a small skiff you have to dumb down the "Ounce" of cloth which takes less resin also. You can get the 2-4 times stiffer and lighter composites buy going with thicker foam core composites like 3/4" thick foam core for decks or even 1" and use lighter ounce cloth.
> 
> The moral of the story, if a skiff builder is using laminates less than 17 ounce in hulls and decks then they are asking for trouble down the road. Using lighter laminates in bulkheads and other areas isn't an issue. If the skiff has a foam core hull and deck.
> 
> People must remember "Carbon" isn't always lighter, it's just stronger in tension, so you can use thinner materials to get the same strength.
> 
> Another note - I've tied a simple knot in a tow of carbon (a strand that makes up carbon mat) and pulled both ends really hard and fast and the carbon sheared itself.
> 
> Cutting carbon mat with scissors is easy, glass is next while Kevlar will dull scissors quick.
> 
> Last question.
> 
> *What sexier to the ear?*
> 
> 1. Carbon fiber skiff
> 2. Fiberglass skiff
> 3. Aluminum skiff
> 
> Here endeth the lesson. - Brian S. Little


I think aluminum sounds sexy.


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## JKD

Capt. Kris Kelley said:


> The water already had smoke coming off it, It's Warriors Weekend and Babe's on The Bay. We've got a fleet out there jerking lips and I get to play with all the balls up in the air. Free up some time, let's go for a ride, sip a cool one "and make the cast".


Is Doc working with your outfit now?


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## Anderson Guide Service

JKD said:


> Is Doc working with your outfit now?


That red has a really heavy fly in its mouth.....haha had to say it!


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## Ish

i wanna see more pictures of that purple and green bote.


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## elsillo

Ish said:


> i wanna see more pictures of that purple and green bote.


That's Marcus Haralson boat, its an Ankona Copperhead. He calls it "the joker". Great fly guide in CC.


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## Ish

never heard of him.

but then again everyone is a guide nowadays.

apparently he didn't think through the whole re-sale thing. it doesn't surprise me that's an Ankona. _i wonder why?
_


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## elsillo

Ish said:


> never heard of him.
> 
> but then again everyone is a guide nowadays.
> 
> apparently he didn't think through the whole re-sale thing. it doesn't surprise me that's an Ankona. _i wonder why?
> _


I have not read one good thing from your post's, Don't understand why you have to always attack everyone and like you said don't even know them!

eat a snickers


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## Meadowlark

elsillo said:


> I have not read one good thing from your post's, Don't understand why you have to always attack everyone and like you said don't even know them!
> 
> eat a snickers


Some things even a snicker won't fix!


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## Anderson Guide Service

Ish said:


> never heard of him.
> 
> but then again everyone is a guide nowadays.
> 
> apparently he didn't think through the whole re-sale thing. it doesn't surprise me that's an Ankona. _i wonder why?
> _


Wow, was going to bed and then red this! Ankona makes a good boat. Why hate on him for running one. Hell, his total loss on a new Ankona is probably much better than buying a (name manufacturer) 60k skiff then selling it a year or two later. Also, if he likes an Ankona, Spear, Mitzi, or Carolina Skiff why even begin to bash him for it???? He probably catches as many fish as any of us do in a higher dollar, better resale skiff!!


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## Ish

elsillo said:


> I have not read one good thing from your post's, Don't understand why you have to always attack everyone and like you said don't even know them!
> 
> eat a snickers


you gonna be okay, nancy?


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## Ish

Meadowlark said:


> Some things even a snicker won't fix!


you two poofters should get a room.


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## Ish

Anderson Guide Service said:


> Ankona makes a good boat.


i'll admit it...i laughed.


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## Ish

Anderson Guide Service said:


> Why hate on him for running one.


 and if that's hating on someone you need thicker skin.

it was nothing more than a blunt observation. was i wrong?


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## Ish

UltralightBoatworksLLC said:


> What weighs more?
> 
> 1. 17 ounce glass cloth
> 2. 17 ounce carbon cloth
> 3. 17 ounce Kevlar cloth
> 
> Answer - they weigh the same, it's a measurement of mat per square yard.
> 
> What weighs more? (using the same type of resin lay-up, either hand, resin infusion or hand/bagging)
> 
> 1. 17 ounce glass cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 2. 17 ounce carbon cloth sandwiching1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 3. 17 ounce Kevlar cloth sandwiching 1/2" 8lb foam core
> 
> Answer - Kevlar might be slightly lighter as it doesn't absorb resin as well as carbon or glass. But that can also be problematic as it can give you dry areas and composite failure.
> 
> What weighs more and is the same tensile strength? (using the same type of resin lay-up, either hand, resin infusion or hand/bagging)
> 
> 1. 17 ounce glass cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 2. 12 ounce carbon cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 3. 12 ounce Kevlar cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 
> Answer - probably the carbon, but to a degree that you would barely notice in a small skiff versus Kevlar. On a small skiff I bet you'd save 20-50 lbs, maybe.
> 
> Now the tricky part of skiff hull laminate design.
> 
> *What's more likely to fail first due to shear strength or composite crushing?*
> 
> example dock dings, large fat guys (like Ish, no disrespect to Ish as we somewhat know each other so I can say things like that and still be professional) stepping on decks coming off of poling/casting platforms or oysters.
> 
> 1. 17 ounce glass cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 2. 12 ounce carbon cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 3. 12 ounce Kevlar cloth sandwiching 1/2" thick 8lb foam core
> 
> I'll let the mass make this choice. But remember to really save weight in a small skiff you have to dumb down the "Ounce" of cloth which takes less resin also. You can get the 2-4 times stiffer and lighter composites buy going with thicker foam core composites like 3/4" thick foam core for decks or even 1" and use lighter ounce cloth.
> 
> The moral of the story, if a skiff builder is using laminates less than 17 ounce in hulls and decks then they are asking for trouble down the road. Using lighter laminates in bulkheads and other areas isn't an issue. If the skiff has a foam core hull and deck.
> 
> People must remember "Carbon" isn't always lighter, it's just stronger in tension, so you can use thinner materials to get the same strength.
> 
> Another note - I've tied a simple knot in a tow of carbon (a strand that makes up carbon mat) and pulled both ends really hard and fast and the carbon sheared itself.
> 
> Cutting carbon mat with scissors is easy, glass is next while Kevlar will dull scissors quick.
> 
> Last question.
> 
> *What sexier to the ear?*
> 
> 1. Carbon fiber skiff
> 2. Fiberglass skiff
> 3. Aluminum skiff
> Iin
> Here endeth the lesson. - Brian S. Little


hey, look here...there's a difference between fat and big.

: )


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## Anderson Guide Service

Ish said:


> and if that's hating on someone you need thicker skin.
> 
> it was nothing more than a blunt observation. was i wrong?


Yes you were. He pays say 25k for a brand new skiff. Runs it for lets say 3 years and puts 375hrs on it. Then he sells it for a 40% depreciation 15k (which is probably high). That is a 10k loss. Buy a new (name your brand) for 60k. Put the same hours on it and then sell it for a 20% loss. That is $12,000.00. So yes your observation was wrong in the business sense. Or lets say you get lucky and sell it for a 10% loss. Then you are still only doing better by 4k. That is assuming you will only take a 10% loss which is not going to happen.


----------



## Ish

Anderson Guide Service said:


> Yes you were. He pays say 25k for a brand new skiff. Runs it for lets say 3 years and puts 375hrs on it. Then he sells it for a 40% depreciation 15k (which is probably high). That is a 10k loss. Buy a new (name your brand) for 60k. Put the same hours on it and then sell it for a 20% loss. That is $12,000.00. So yes your observation was wrong in the business sense. Or lets say you get lucky and sell it for a 10% loss. Then you are still only doing better by 4k. That is assuming you will only take a 10% loss which is not going to happen.


you're right, i forgot that there is a line a mile long to buy a used purple and green tier ii skiff that a guide ragged for years. every coastal angler in the market for a used skiff wants to be seen in a purple and green bote, and that unique color will definitely command a premium.

and yeah, why anyone would buy a $60,000 boat is beyond me. but understand that the guy who does that is either not concerned with re-sale value or a complete idiot.


----------



## Ish

Ish said:


> you're right, i forgot that there is a line a mile long to buy a used purple and green tier ii skiff that a guide ragged for years. every coastal angler in the market for a used skiff wants to be seen in a purple and green bote, and that unique color will definitely command a premium.
> 
> and yeah, why anyone would buy a $60,000 boat is beyond me. but understand that the guy who does that is either not concerned with re-sale value or a complete idiot.


_***edited to add the sarcasm font for meadowlark._

_sorry for the confusion.
_


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## salty_waders

My carbon fiber fishing poles are kinda brittle...


----------

