# Jesus is God



## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

He is Lord of all. He was in the beginning and he always will be. He is the great "I AM." He is not an angel. He is the son of God and he is God. Jesus can forgive sins and it is thru him that we receive salvation. His name is above all other names.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

One more thing. God the father did not create Jesus because Jesus has always been.


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

Just like God knew you and I before we were born?


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## glenbo (Apr 9, 2010)

He knew us at conception when He breathed our soul into us.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

How do you explain this scripture. It is Jesus speaking. (John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

Also how do you explain the Jesus was the "firstborn". God is the alpha and the omega, not Jesus. Jesus was the firstborn of God. Jesus was the masterworker, he did create, but only with God's spirit. Jesus is our savior, because he was sent by his father as a ransom for our sins.

God did know us before we were born.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

shaggydog said:


> How do you explain this scripture. It is Jesus speaking. (John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
> 
> Also how do you explain the Jesus was the "firstborn". God is the alpha and the omega, not Jesus. Jesus was the firstborn of God. Jesus was the masterworker, he did create, but only with God's spirit. Jesus is our savior, because he was sent by his father as a ransom for our sins.
> 
> God did know us before we were born.


 God, The Holy Spirit, and Jesus are the trinity, omnipresent and one.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [*other*] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [*other*] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [*other*] things and by means of him all [*other*] things were made to exists." (Col. 1:15-17, for context. The New World Translation - Emphasis added. Note the NWT's addition of '*other*' into the text four times. This is discussed here.)

The Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the word "firstborn" here to mean "first created" because it is consistent with their theological presupposition that Jesus is a created thing. Of course, Jesus, the word become flesh (John 1:1,14) is not a created thing. But that hasn't stopped the Watchtower organization from claiming He is. Nevertheless, there is a Greek word for "first created" and it was in use at the time of Paul's writing to the Colossians. He did not use it here. The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn" and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo and it is not used here.
Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Third, firstborn is also a title that is transferable:


Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called *the name of the first-born Manasseh*: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherÃ¯'s house. And *the name of the second called he Ephraim*: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)
Jer. 31:9, "...for I am a father to Israel, and *Ephraim is My firstborn* (NASB)."
Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created as the Jehovah's Witnesses say it means here. "Firstborn" can mean the first born person in a family and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable. That is obvious since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14) and is also the first born son of Mary. In addition, He is the pre-eminent one in all things. The Jehovah's Witnesses should consider this when they examine Col. 1:15. They should also abandon the Watchtower which guides them in their thinking and believing.

*Embracing Mystery, Not Destroying It*

There is one God. The Son is God, and the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. However, the Son is not the Father, and the Father is not the Son. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is he the Son.

What Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses (who are really modern-day Arians) want to do is abolish all mystery about God. Because the Trinity does not make sense, it must be wrong. So, after mistranslating Holy Scripture, they deceive themselves into thinking the Trinity is unbiblical. In the end, human reasoning has the final say for them.

But with the Triune God of the Bible, mystery is a good thing, and it should be embraced. After all, why would we, mere dependant humans, want to serve a God who is exhaustible, as one who can be figured out? To be sure, God _has_ revealed himself in Scripture, and he is known personally through Christ. But it is our jobâ€"as responsible exegetes of Scripture and as obedient childrenâ€"to not allow _that_ revelation of God to be distorted or repackaged into something nice and tidy.

Any divergence from what we know to be biblical truth about the nature of the Godhead is heresy. It conveys to the world a false god, and ultimately, a false christ.

And a false christ does not save.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

DCAVA said:


> God, The Holy Spirit, and Jesus are the trinity, omnipresent and one.


Amen brother. Flesh & blood can't reveal everything to us, but God who is in heaven can.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

How do you explain this scripture? It is pretty clear. (John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

The father is greater than I am is speaking of two entities, one being greater than the other.

As far as the holy spirit is concerned, God controls the holy spirit, so the holy spirit cannot be equal to God.

Many are being misled and will not open their eyes to the truths of God's word. But it is to be expected, the scriptures say so.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

By the way, Fish, the trinity doctrine was conceived by the Roman Catholic church. I think you have started some threads about that particular religion, which you are good at singling out religions.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."

Jesus has two natures. Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man. Jesus is both God and man. As a man, he was in a lesser position than the Father. He had added to Himself human nature (Col. 2:9). He became a man to die for people.

A comparison can be found in the marriage relationship. Biblically, a husband is greater in position and authority than his wife. But, he is no different in nature and he is not better than she. They share the same nature, being human, and they work together by love.

So, Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was simply acknowledging that He was also a man and as a man, he was subject to the laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law; namely, sinners (Gal. 4:4-5).


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."
> 
> Jesus has two natures. Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man. Jesus is both God and man. As a man, he was in a lesser position than the Father. He had added to Himself human nature (Col. 2:9). He became a man to die for people.
> 
> ...


You make so much sense. He is but he isn't. Your comparasion of a marriage makes my point. They may be of the same nature, but they are not the same being.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

shaggydog said:


> You make so much sense. He is but he isn't. Your comparasion of a marriage makes my point. They may be of the same nature, but they are not the same being.


John chapter one says it plainly. Also Jesus said if you have seen me, you've seen the father. Is there anything that you don't agree with from the Jehova's Witness Library?


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

You need to sincerely seek God and ask him to guide you Shaggydog. Don't follow a group that has been wrong so many times in the past. And we will never totally understand God because he is much higher than we are. You need real faith brother. God bless you.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> John chapter one says it plainly. Also Jesus said if you have seen me, you've seen the father. Is there anything that you don't agree with from the Jehova's Witness Library?


Jesus was a perfect reflection, he reflected His thoughts and qualities perfectly. It certainly does not mean they were the same entity.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> You need to sincerely seek God and ask him to guide you Shaggydog. Don't follow a group that has been wrong so many times in the past. And we will never totally understand God because he is much higher than we are. You need real faith brother. God bless you.


God does guide me. Man misleads you. My blessings come from a higher source. He blesses me with all I need.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

shaggydog said:


> God does guide me. Man misleads you. My blessings come from a higher source. He blesses me with all I need.


From what I've seen, you are guided by man - You do realize that man is the one who wrote all of the watchtower doctrine? And that's why they have their own booklets that they give people instead of giving them bibles.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> From what I've seen, you are guided by man - You do realize that man is the one who wrote all of the watchtower doctrine? And that's why they have their own booklets that they give people instead of giving them bibles.


Again you are totally misled, and you spread lies. Sorry, but it is true, you do not know what you are talking bout. What you are saying is absolutely false.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

shaggydog said:


> Again you are totally misled, and you spread lies. Sorry, but it is true, you do not know what you are talking bout. What you are saying is absolutely false.


According to who?

This website?:
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/h/r1/lp-e

In that case, most Christians don't know what they are talking about and are spreading lies.


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## JetSkiJack (Jul 15, 2013)

This will always be a debate, I doubt either of you will solve it in this thread... I also wonder the same thing, but look past that, either way is okay...


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