# Once Save Always Saved Or Not? Please Read The Rules.............:)



## twitch-twitch-reel

*Here are the rules of this post*, You can't use the following words. ( I think, My preacher said, My mom told me, I heard one time, Well I believe, My God, and so forth) You can only use scripture to make your point and the entire debate will be based on bible verses. OK? Sweet, here is the subject:



IF YOU ARE SAVED ARE YOU ALWAYS SAVED OR, IF YOU ARE SAVED YOU CAN BECOME UNSAVED AGAIN.



*Remember Bible verses only, *



Lets begin.

Keep it clean 

No shots below the bible belt

No posting in the gen fishing area. J



GO!


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## luv2fish

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)


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## Stuart

Romans 8:38

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Or

_"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:* BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED*; yet so as by fire."_ 1 Corinthians 3:11-15​


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## twitch-twitch-reel

Rev 3



1"To the angel[a] of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[b]of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.


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## SKSOUTH

*Jesus Said*

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

And so friends I give you these passages from the Bible and this is what they mean to me as I have learned them and believe in the words of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

If you believe in God and Jesus Christ, then this was given to you by God as no man may come to Jesus lest he is called and no man may go to God except through Jesus. This in itself should be proof to you that those who believe are God's chosen! We are sinners and our inability to not sin is why God sent His son Jesus because he loves us in all our imperfection and wanted us to be able to overcome sin. All we have to do is believe in Jesus and we are saved. Jesus paid this price for us! You cannot become un-saved. Jesus says that once you are His, no man may pluck you from God's hand, therefore, unless you are God, there is nothing you can do to unsave yourself.

P.S. To the Jehovahs Witnesses, I know you love God but please consider this passage;

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved by faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You cannot work to gain God's favor, only by believing is God's favor given to you freely. If you believe in God and Jesus Christ, then you are already God's chosen!


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## twitch-twitch-reel

*Matthew 25*

*The Parable of the Ten Virgins *

1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' 13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.


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## SKSOUTH

Luke 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

Luke 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?


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## Stay Bent

Good question and foundation to use scripture only. (That is the way it should be according to 1 Peter 4:11, which says, If any man speaks, let him speak as of the oracles of God...) 

So here is the "not always saved" aspect of your question:
1. Acts 5 with the story of Ananias and Sapphira
2. 1 Peter 4:17 and 18; The righteous will scarcely be saved.
3. 2 Peter 2:1-22; Why the righteouos will scarcely be saved.

and there is so much more......

This is not controversial. When it is written, it's an official warning.


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## SKSOUTH

John 3:5 - 3:8

Luke 9:23 - 9:27

Mark 2:17

Job 42:3 -42:7

Amen


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## twitch-twitch-reel

if you don't have an bible with you there is bible.com you can copy and past for the people reading. 

Good Job guys! its getting good!


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## trout250

John 3:16- For God so loved the workd that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Eph. 2:8-9 - for by grace are you saved;by faith, and not of yourselves it is a gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.


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## luv2fish

AMEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS JOHN 3:16 says it ALL


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## SKSOUTH

twitch-twitch-reel said:


> if you don't have an bible with you there is bible.com you can copy and past for the people reading. Good Job guys! its getting good!


Thanks for the link! I have two of my Bibles right here on my desk but in my last post I figured what the heck, surely those I am conversing with have theirs! I'm sorry, it never occured to me that this thread could also be a good way to witness. Therefore, here is my post corrected. God Bless you all.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 9:24 For whosoever shall save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. 42:7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to El'i-phaz the Te'man-ite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.


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## Hogpaw

John 3:16 is a wonderful verse. It is very often used out of context. The story of Jesus teaching Nicodemus is what is going on as this verse comes up. There are 19 other verses to the story. 

Verse 5 says "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."


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## twitch-twitch-reel

born of water and the Spirit." And the Spirit? what does this mean? you must speak in toungs first?


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## activescrape

No way.
When you accept Jesus as your Lord and savior you are "reborn", or, "born again." Spiritually reborn. A new creation. The difference? The Holy Spirit takes up residence in your spirit. This is when your eyes are opened up to spiritual truths, when discernment comes, when aversion to evil you never saw happens, when God's voice is heard. It is all a function of having recieved the Holy Spirit.
As far as the water, I have been baptised, I baptised my daughter in our church. These are public professions of faith but not necessary to go to heaven. Example: The thief hanging on the cross next to Jesus at the crusifixion.


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## dpdogwood

"but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Can you be saved, tell people your saved, and go do hedious sins again, and still say "But I'm saved regardless of what I do now?" Isn't this the true meaning of not taking the Lords name in vain? Being an example to others as to what being saved looks like! Isn't this the real meaning of being saved - "take up his cross daily, and follow me"! 
Didn't Jesus say "go and sin no more"? Did that mean "take up his cross daily, and follow me" or did it mean theres no way you can fall from grace no matter what you do wrong? Was Hitler "saved" as a young boy, therefore never sinning anymore? How many of us only think that we're saved and still knowingly do sins? Would you still do all things you do with Jesus standing visibly right beside you and say to Him - "It's ok, I'm saved, I can do anything now"?


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## SKSOUTH

In his previous post, StayBent covered this rather well. We had a PM conversation about it. This is what I have learned from the Bible, preachers and Bible study.

When you are saved and accept Jesus Christ as your saviour, you give up the desire to do wrong by expressing the desire to do right and lead a better life. If you are truly saved you lose the desire to do wrong. This does not mean you do not still sin, we are human and prone to sin. (case in point, I just lit a cigarette, I'm harming my body, this is a sin but I am addicted despite my desire to not smoke) We all fight temptation!


God recognized this and this is why he sent Jesus to us to die on the cross and pay the wages of our sins with his blood. God loves us and knows we can't help ourselves. All he asks is we take Jesus into our hearts, try to do the best we can, repent our sins and ask forgiveness. 

Those that are 'saved' and go about to continually do evil are not saved. They are using the beliefs of Christians to promote Satan's works by deceit. Since they were never saved, they cannot be un-saved. To think you could be saved and continue evil, is Satan's way of playing you!

Better is the man who is saved at the last moment as he repents then the man who is saved and turns back to his earthly ways.


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## SurfRunner

SKSOUTH said:


> Those that are 'saved' and go about to continually do evil are not saved. They are using the beliefs of Christians to promote Satan's works by deceit. Since they were never saved, they cannot be un-saved. To think you could be saved and continue evil, is Satan's way of playing you!
> 
> Better is the man who is saved at the last moment as he repents then the man who is saved and turns back to his earthly ways.


I believe your right SKSOUTH. There are those who walk away from God never again returning.....They were never born again in the first place - God knew they would walk away from the beginning.

Then, You have those who walk away from God and then come back - They were saved all along like the prodigal son. God knew they would come back from the beginning. Therefore, we really can't judge - only God knows.

Picking up your cross daily does not bring salvation because everyone I know is always dropping it.LOL! You show me a man that says he does not drop his cross and I'll show you a liar.

We can pick and choose scripture from the Bible to death and not get anywhere with this subject. You got to look at every scripture as a whole and bring it to balance.

We are not saved by how well we know the scripture or if we interpret it all correctly because no one has the scriptures down perfectly. We are saved by Grace and having a personal relation with the Son Jesus.


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## Bigdaddy101

Can denying the Lord be consider blasphemy? If so, Peter denied Christ thre times. Yet when the Lord returned to him an seven other disiples fishing, he asked him (John 21) "Do you love (agape) me twice, and "Do you love (phileo) once." He them encouraged Peter to follow him, feed my lamb, tend to my sheep. Peter then went on to be a great leader of the early church. You tell me?


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## Stay Bent

Sorry for not really following the rules earlier. (Quoting, but not pasting)

I thought I would add this one for you all's viewing and deciphering that the writer Paul is writing to the saved / church in Thessalanica about a time to come when the brothers / sisters of the church would apostate or fall away from the church because of the workings / teachings of Satan and lose their salvation. (As Hogpaw said earlier, read it in the context in which it was written and it will refute Once Saved, Always Saved)

*2 Thessalonians 2*

1BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,

2Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.

3Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [a]apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great [b]falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),(A)

4Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.(B)

5Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things?

6And now you know what is restraining him [from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested (revealed) in his own [appointed] time.

7For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until [c]he who restrains is taken out of the way.

8And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.(C)

9The coming [of the lawless one, the antichrist] is through the activity and working of Satan and will be attended by great power and with all sorts of [pretended] miracles and signs and delusive marvels--[all of them] lying wonders--

10And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved.

11Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, 12In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness.


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## activescrape

Ok, I researched this passage 2 Thess 2:3 in the NIV, the New King James and in Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, reference library edition. 

The point I get out of it is that this "falling away" is an event which is "clearly and specifically identifiable and unique, the consummate act of rebellion, an event of final magnitude."

It is led by the anti-christ and "beguiles" many saved ones. They are tricked, not unsaved. They fall for the most clever ruse ever perpetrated. It is prophesied. God expects it.It is definately a revolt against God, but they don't know what they are doing is against God.

I can find no scripture that says that as a result of being tricked and falling away God banishes them to hell.

So here is the sequence. 

1.The falling away, orchestrated by the anti-christ.

2. The abomination of desolation.

3.The day of the Lord.


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## SurfRunner

I agree with Activescrape here as the context in which it is written and what the great apostacy is.

We see the great apostasy in its working now. There were once Christ centered, Bible believeing denominations who were strong in the faith that have changed over time. They are now caught up in human philosophies and reject the diety of Jesus Christ and the truth of his word. This is a very different situation than a person getting saved and losing their salvation.

Here is another translation of the same scripture. It appears quite a bit different as to the one previously posted. If we are not carefull, we can choose to believe the translation we agree with. I have caught myself doing that before.LOL!

Notice what verse 13 says. This is very key to wrapping up this whole context.
*2 Thessalonians 2*

*The Man of Lawlessness *

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. *Stand Firm *

13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because *from the beginning God chose you[b] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.* 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

16May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, *who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope*, 17encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.


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## Stay Bent

I'm a King James person myself and pulled the Amplified version from the bible.com site. (I really don't like that version)

No, no version says verbatim: They will go the hell.
But notice what it does say:
KJ version of verse 12:
12That they all might be "damned" who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I'm not an opinionated person. I only speak where the bible speaks and stay silent where there is no bible, but...
To me, if I was once saved and God later damned me, I think I loss my salvation in HIS process. Afterall, HE gave me the strong delusion to believe a lie that would cause me to err in "Not Being Right With HIM". 
If I / we could be disobedient or practice unrighteousness and be saved still, then why would we be constantly warned by the scriptures to better ourselves for our Judgement Day. 
Also bear in mind, if I have a strong delusion to believe that I'm not in error, I will never repent or be forgiven, so I die in sin.


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## activescrape

The scripture says that the delusion is sent to those "who are perishing because they did not welcome the truth, but refused to believe it so that they might be saved."

Paul is clearly illustrating the difference between his audience, the church of Thessalonia, and the ones who never accepted the truth, and were never saved. It is these who recieve the delusion.

I don't know how I could read verse 13 and still think God is "damning" the saved. They DID believe the truth, and followed the path of righteousness, until the deception. This is not true of the ones who had never done so, and who Paul is talking about in v. 12. In fact the heading in my Ryrie study bible for verses 10-12 is titled "In relation to Unbelievers."

God is not going to give the delusion to believers, but to unbelievers.

Lastly, I don't know of anyone who has had an authentic conversion that "practiced" unrighteousness. When you are indwelt by the holy spirit, that spirit in you causes you to have an aversion to evil. Oil and water don't mix. Obviously we all continue to fall short of the glory of God, but don't we feel bad about it? Yes. Don't we then try to do better and please God? Yes. Because we love him. 

There are fakes out there, pretenders, God knows the difference and there are scriptures that deal with that too, but that is another thread.


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## Hogpaw

I would like to use a few folks from the OT as an example.

Uzzah - He was involved in bringing the ark of the covenant back to Jerusalem. In case you don't know the story. They were supposed to carry the ark with the poles inserted in the rings. They decided not to do that. Maybe the poles were lost. When the ox stumbled or what ever happened that tipped the ark all Uzzah did was try to stablize it. That's a good thing right? It is not what God said. Read the story about how God felt about being disobeyed.
*Peril in Moving the Ark*

1(A)Now David again gathered all the chosen men of Israel, thirty thousand.

2And David arose and went with all the people who were with him to (B)Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God which is called by the (C)Name, the very name of the LORD of hosts who (D)is enthroned above the cherubim.

3They placed the ark of God on (E)a new cart that they might bring it from the house of Abinadab which was on the hill; and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, were leading the new cart.

4So (F)they brought it with the ark of God from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill; and Ahio was walking ahead of the ark.

5Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel (G)were celebrating before the LORD (H)with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals.

6But when they came to the (I)threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah (J)reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it.

7And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and (K)God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God.

8David became angry because of the LORD'S outburst against Uzzah, and that place is called [a]Perez-uzzah to this day.

9So (L)David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, "How can the ark of the LORD come to me?"

10And David was unwilling to move the ark of the LORD into the city of David with him; but David took it aside to the house of (M)Obed-edom the Gittite. 11Thus the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the LORD (N)blessed Obed-edom and all his household.

________________________________________________________________________
Annanias and Sapphira

They sold thier land to give it to the poor. They held back part of the money and acted like they gave it all. Just a little lie right?

*The Believers Share Their Possessions *

32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles' feet. *Acts 5*

*Ananias and Sapphira *

1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.

3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" 
"Yes," she said, "that is the price."

9Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." 10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

_________________________________________________________________________
Nadab and Abihu

They were Priests and sons of Aaron. Good folks right. They were offereing a sacrifice to the Lord and used a different fire than He told them to.
*The Priests Begin Their Ministry *

1 On the eighth day Moses summoned Aaron and his sons and the elders of Israel. 2 He said to Aaron, "Take a bull calf for your sin offering and a ram for your burnt offering, both without defect, and present them before the LORD. 3 Then say to the Israelites: 'Take a male goat for a sin offering, a calf and a lamb-both a year old and without defect-for a burnt offering, 4 and an ox [a] and a ram for a fellowship offering [b] to sacrifice before the LORD, together with a grain offering mixed with oil. For today the LORD will appear to you.' "

5 They took the things Moses commanded to the front of the Tent of Meeting, and the entire assembly came near and stood before the LORD. 6 Then Moses said, "This is what the LORD has commanded you to do, so that the glory of the LORD may appear to you."

7 Moses said to Aaron, "Come to the altar and sacrifice your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people; sacrifice the offering that is for the people and make atonement for them, as the LORD has commanded."

8 So Aaron came to the altar and slaughtered the calf as a sin offering for himself. 9 His sons brought the blood to him, and he dipped his finger into the blood and put it on the horns of the altar; the rest of the blood he poured out at the base of the altar. 10 On the altar he burned the fat, the kidneys and the covering of the liver from the sin offering, as the LORD commanded Moses; 11 the flesh and the hide he burned up outside the camp.

12 Then he slaughtered the burnt offering. His sons handed him the blood, and he sprinkled it against the altar on all sides. 13 They handed him the burnt offering piece by piece, including the head, and he burned them on the altar. 14 He washed the inner parts and the legs and burned them on top of the burnt offering on the altar.

15 Aaron then brought the offering that was for the people. He took the goat for the people's sin offering and slaughtered it and offered it for a sin offering as he did with the first one.

16 He brought the burnt offering and offered it in the prescribed way. 17 He also brought the grain offering, took a handful of it and burned it on the altar in addition to the morning's burnt offering.

18 He slaughtered the ox and the ram as the fellowship offering for the people. His sons handed him the blood, and he sprinkled it against the altar on all sides. 19 But the fat portions of the ox and the ram-the fat tail, the layer of fat, the kidneys and the covering of the liver- 20 these they laid on the breasts, and then Aaron burned the fat on the altar. 21 Aaron waved the breasts and the right thigh before the LORD as a wave offering, as Moses commanded.

22 Then Aaron lifted his hands toward the people and blessed them. And having sacrificed the sin offering, the burnt offering and the fellowship offering, he stepped down.

23 Moses and Aaron then went into the Tent of Meeting. When they came out, they blessed the people; and the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people. 24 Fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the fat portions on the altar. And when all the people saw it, they shouted for joy and fell facedown. *Leviticus 10*

*The Death of Nadab and Abihu *

1 Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command. 2 So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. 3 Moses then said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD spoke of when he said: 
" 'Among those who approach me 
I will show myself holy; 
in the sight of all the people 
I will be honored.' " 
Aaron remained silent.

4 Moses summoned Mishael and Elzaphan, sons of Aaron's uncle Uzziel, and said to them, "Come here; carry your cousins outside the camp, away from the front of the sanctuary." 5 So they came and carried them, still in their tunics, outside the camp, as Moses ordered.

6 Then Moses said to Aaron and his sons Eleazar and Ithamar, "Do not let your hair become unkempt, [c] and do not tear your clothes, or you will die and the LORD will be angry with the whole community. But your relatives, all the house of Israel, may mourn for those the LORD has destroyed by fire. 7 Do not leave the entrance to the Tent of Meeting or you will die, because the LORD's anointing oil is on you." So they did as Moses said.

8 Then the LORD said to Aaron, 9 "You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. 10 You must distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean, 11 and you must teach the Israelites all the decrees the LORD has given them through Moses."

12 Moses said to Aaron and his remaining sons, Eleazar and Ithamar, "Take the grain offering left over from the offerings made to the LORD by fire and eat it prepared without yeast beside the altar, for it is most holy. 13 Eat it in a holy place, because it is your share and your sons' share of the offerings made to the LORD by fire; for so I have been commanded. 14 But you and your sons and your daughters may eat the breast that was waved and the thigh that was presented. Eat them in a ceremonially clean place; they have been given to you and your children as your share of the Israelites' fellowship offerings. [d] 15 The thigh that was presented and the breast that was waved must be brought with the fat portions of the offerings made by fire, to be waved before the LORD as a wave offering. This will be the regular share for you and your children, as the LORD has commanded."

16 When Moses inquired about the goat of the sin offering and found that it had been burned up, he was angry with Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's remaining sons, and asked, 17 "Why didn't you eat the sin offering in the sanctuary area? It is most holy; it was given to you to take away the guilt of the community by making atonement for them before the LORD. 18 Since its blood was not taken into the Holy Place, you should have eaten the goat in the sanctuary area, as I commanded." 19 Aaron replied to Moses, "Today they sacrificed their sin offering and their burnt offering before the LORD, but such things as this have happened to me. Would the LORD have been pleased if I had eaten the sin offering today?" 20 When Moses heard this, he was satisfied.

_____________________________________________________________________

Do you feel these people were saved or lost in their sins. God is very particular about his commandments and even says If you love Me you will keep My commandments. These are not just the convenient ones or how one interprets his commandments. Do you think that Uzzah could have just interpreted that it was OK to steady the ark of the covenent. Do you think that Ananias and Sapphria would say that situation ethics defines when it is OK to lie. Do you think that it was OK for Nadab and Abihu to interpret the type of fire they used to light the alter. Certainally not.

________________________________________________________________________
*Is once saved always saved correct according to the Bible?*

*Passage James 2:10-12:
*10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[a] also said, "Do not murder."[b] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. 
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
_________________________________________________________________________
*Passage James 2:14-26:
*
*Faith and Deeds *

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." 
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


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## SKSOUTH

SKSOUTH said:


> John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
> 
> John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
> 
> John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> 
> John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


Thus we return to the promise in the words of Jesus. God would not let those he chose to be beguiled or fall away. He makes us one with the Holy Spirit so that those who are really saved do not desire to do evil.

Friends, the verses quoted from Bible.Com are confusing as we are not all looking at the same version. Here is what I mean;

King James version
*John 1:1: * 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Amplified version
*John 1:1: *1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [b]Himself.(A)

New Living translation
*John 1:1:* 1In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.

New American Standard
*John 1:1:* 1(A)In the beginning was (B)the Word, and the Word was (C)with God, and (D)the Word was God.

Can we agree to use the same version? I prefer the King James version without excessive footnotes and translations.


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## Hogpaw

I don't mind that. I don't believe it changes anything I posted. I know that some of the versions are polished to fit certain beliefs. I agree that using the KJ is a good idea.


SKSOUTH said:


> Can we agree to use the same version? I prefer the King James version without excessive footnotes and translations.


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## SKSOUTH

Hogpaw said:


> *Is once saved always saved correct according to the Bible?*
> *Passage James 2:10-12:*
> 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[a] also said, "Do not murder."[b] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
> 12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
> _________________________________________________________________________
> *Passage James 2:14-26:*
> 
> *Faith and Deeds *
> 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.





SKSOUTH said:


> Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
> 
> Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved by faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
> 
> Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Is not my witness to you and those who read this thread to find the truth - works?


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## Stay Bent

Wow Gang, this is really getting good. I'm at work and thank God you all are allowing me to partake in a 2-cool cyber bible class.



I had to do a little work and I see you all have been quite busy. God bless ya!



I guess I will use a scripture to compare or parallel 2 Thes 2 and hopefully gain more clarity. Afterall, 1 Cor 2:13 says:

_Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; *comparing spiritual things with spiritual*._



Hopefully, the following passages will help explain 2 Thes 2

As we agree:

2 Thes 3 is prophetic warning and talks about a time when Christ will come again. (After the apostacy or falling away from the church) Who is in the church? The believers and the saved.

Verses 4 says, Satan will deceive the people mentioned in verse 3. Remember the words falling away, also means drawn away. How will they be drawn? By Satan's deception of signs and wonders that will cause the once Godly believer to believe something different. (A lie)

Once Satan does this, God will be so upset with the once believer that HE will allow the once believer to have a strong delusion that what Satan has taught them is real or true. Afterwards the end result will be that they (The once believer) will lose their salvation for practicing unrighteousness and not staying with the word of God that they were once taught. 

Now after Paul has expounded on the end result of falling away, he begins to encourage the believer to stand fast in what God has allowing them to hear or believe which saves.(Verses 13-14)



Notice the similarity of this same warning in Acts 20:28-32

_Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood._

_For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock._

_Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them._

_Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears._

_And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified._



Luke warns the *Overseers or Elders* to "Take heed unto *yourselves*" Why? Because they were responsible for feeding and protecting the flock. 

Is there another reason? Yes. Notice in verse 30, he says, *"Of your own selves*" (The Elders) men will arise and began to speak things that will *"Draw disciples away"*

The disciples are God's believers or the saved right? But the once saved will be drawn away from the church or will fall away and be led by a false prophet / Satan.

So they were warned for 3 years. Why? Because if this was to happen, they would become lost. But if they watched and heeded the warning, the Elders or Satan couldn't draw them away or mislead them.

Now, just like 2 Thes 13-14, they are commended to fight that fight, heed that warning and the word that will allow them to keep their inheritance amongst the sanctified.


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## Bigdaddy101

The problem is that anybody can take Scripture out of context and it may appear to say what ever that person want's. Without a full understanding of the story or context that a passage is writen, one can not make a conclussion. Sometimes these passages are referring to Old Testament Laws or stories, sometimes about the future. The bottom line is we have done nothing to deserve salvation, thus can we do anything not to deserve it? The entire Bible speaks of the grace of God. We are saved by having Faith in our Lord and through his Grace, not by deed's. If you have faith from the beginning, the Holy Spirit will lead you away from eval. 
The question is not "Can we lose our salvation" it should be "did we ever have it to begin with."


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## EricF

I would like to throw this out there..... Could any of you explain to me exactly why in Gen. 9, Noah cursed Canaan for the sin of Ham? I struggled with this same argument for years, and an old crusty seminary professor of mine really closed the gap for me with this passage. Also, this is prelaw.... so the argument that this was under another dispensation is invalid. 

eric


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## activescrape

Remember that anything old testament is when the eye for an eye law was still in effect, after Jesus we have operated under a new covenant.


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## dpdogwood

"The question is not "Can we lose our salvation" it should be "did we ever have it to begin with."

Yep! I believe this is the Real Question! I guess the answer is only known by God. If I was to have a guess on who was saved, I'd probably say it must be those TV preachers that lead so many to Jesus. Oh wait, A few of those fell pretty far away too (jail for stealing millions, fornicating with prostitutes, and all the child molesters in the varius levels of the big church, and then all the other church fathers protecting them). Aren't all those men supposed to be unable to sin? I'm glad I don't have to pick and choose who's who on the big List! 
My question is, was I truely ever saved when I was all spritually feeling good and being baptized? I still sin and do things I know aren't right, and others would say "Oh, he was never Really saved anyway"! Since the phrase 'Once saved allways saved" is a "Man's Tradition" saying and not verbadum in any bible version, then I'll just have to, hopefully, ask Jesus one day.


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## Belt Sanders

This is from Apostle Paul speaking to Gentile Beleivers about the descendents of Abraham, Issaac and Jacob. They will be saved by covenant because God said so. Not because they beleive in Jesus. For the most part the jews have been spiritually blinded from who Jesus is. They still are today but their spiritual sight will be restored.

"All Israel Will Be Saved"
ROMANS:
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion" he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."


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## SKSOUTH

Thanks for joining our thread folks, TTR started it and it has been a wonderful learning experience so far. 

EricF - As activescrape has said, in the Old Testament the father was responsible for son and vise versa - along about the time of King David and the compilation of Proverbs is when men became responsible for thier own actions.

Bigdaddy101 and dpdogwood - ours is not to know, perhaps these verses will help. Sorry folks, I'm getting a little off topic but felt this needed to be addressed, it is still a matter of Salvation.

Proverbs 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord and depart from evil.


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## Bigdaddy101

As I go through my life and my walk with the Lord, I am reminded of a childhood game. Shoot's and Ladders is a game most of us has seen or heard of at one point or another. A mans walk with the Lord is filled with shoots and Ladders. When we are first saved, the ladders are short and the shoots are long, as me mature, the reverse occurs as the shoots get shorter and the ladders get longer. We are all going to fall away from the Lord at various points in our life. This could be for a second and us men look at a women, or a year or two getting hung up on addictions. The Holy spirit will always be there telling us which way to go, then it is up to us to act on it. WE decide how far and how long we fall. This is how I interpret the scripture of "Take Up Your Cross Daily." By "Taking up our crosses" we understand what our savior went though for us and except his forgiveness for our sins. Christianity is a journey not a race, study the road map, go to all the meetings and turst in the Lord, and you will have a great journey. Don't and you wont. Bottom line is the choice is ours to make.


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## SurfRunner

There have been times in my great journey of Spitirual maturing that I have gotten so low, I would have completely given up if I didn't know that Jesus was still there carrying my sins and burdens.


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## reload

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.


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## Stay Bent

Just peeking in. Great stuff yall.


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## dpdogwood

"Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
I am taking this as "we don't get to Heaven by assuming that 'Our Works' are, 'good enough', for entry! I know Jesus paid the one and only price for our entry, and that it's a free gift for the taking, and that works are just a result of being thankful enough to follow and do what is right.


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## SKSOUTH

dpdogwood said:


> "Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
> I am taking this as "we don't get to Heaven by assuming that 'Our Works' are, 'good enough', for entry! I know Jesus paid the one and only price for our entry, and that it's a free gift for the taking, and that works are just a result of being thankful enough to follow and do what is right.


I see two interpretations here. One is as the passages read that any man who is saved but returns to his earthly way was not worthy of salvation. The other is a reminder that we are all sinners.

This is not of scripture, but I hope all will see the point. I don't remember if I heard it on the radio or read it somewhere and I don't know the exact words, but I think it applies to the interpretation of Luke 9:62.

As related by a dying teenage boy, just prior to his passing.

_I remember the accident and I woke up in the hospital and saw my parents crying over me. I tried to tell them I was not dead but I couldn't move or make any signal they could see. (comatose?)_

_I went back to sleep and when I awoke, I was in a small room. The floor and three walls were blank white but the wall in front of me was covered with what looked like card catalog bins. There was also a door with a window at either end of the room. From one shone a bright light, the other dancing flames. I could move again and felt no pain._

_Curious, I opened a file cabinet and laughed when I read the folly of a young child. Opening another I gasped as I read how one boy beat another severely. In yet another, the boy was baptized and I smiled, remembering my Baptism. Then I realized these cards were the story of my life. Looking further, I was horrified to find a written account of everything I had ever done good or bad. My deepest darkest secrets were in these files and I was so ashamed! I slumped to the floor sobbing heavily in my shame and there I sat for quite some time. _

_Then the brightly lit door opened and a man walked in dressed in robes. He was a kind and gentle man and I knew at once it must be Jesus. He went to the file cabinet and opened a drawer. I wanted to scream at him to stop but I could not. What he read must have been very bad for he looked at me sadly and shook his head. I thought for sure he would send me to the door of flame. Then, he took out a pen and signed his name across my card in red. Putting the card back, he took out another and signed it also. This continued until all were signed. With His blood he had taken responsibility for my sins._

_When he finished, he turned to me, wiped my tears away and smiled. Then he took me by the hand and led me through the lighted door._


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## reload

*
Revelation 3

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I believe someone commented on this passage earlier but I think it might be good to go over it again, especially verse 5. If God stated that He would not blot out the name of the "overcomer" from the book of life, would it not be safe to say that for those who were not "overcomers" that their name would be blotted out. If their name was in the book of life, it would be safe to assume that they were saved. Once their name was taken out of the book of life, we can be certain that those people will no longer be considered saved, because no one will make it to Heaven, unless their name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. 
*


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## trout250

if you truly accept christ as your savior and are born into the family of GOD you become one of his children. If you are a child of a person they will always be your parents, no matter what you do to embarrass them, you may get out of fellowship with GOD and this can be remedied by your confessing you sins an asking forgiveness , and getting bck into fellowship with him.


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## Guest

trout250 said:


> if you truly accept christ as your savior and are born into the family of GOD you become one of his children. If you are a child of a person they will always be your parents, no matter what you do to embarrass them, you may get out of fellowship with GOD and this can be remedied by your confessing you sins an asking forgiveness , and getting bck into fellowship with him.


this is the simplest way to have it said or explained ,i don't think anyone needs to to add/subtract from it.thanks for the post


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## Mrs Backlasher

trout250 said:


> John 3:16- For God so loved the workd that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
> 
> Eph. 2:8-9 - for by grace are you saved;by faith, and not of yourselves it is a gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.


I think trout250's post sums it all up.

God has given me ETERNAL LIFE through the blood of Jesus paying for my sins (all of my sins, past, present, future). This ETERNAL LIFE was not earned, but was given to me freely as a gift as soon as I asked Jesus for His forgiveness and gave my life to Him. The Holy Spirit took up residence in my life as an earnest payment. He enables me to communicate with the Father and to know Him personally. Thereby I hear (not audibly) the voice of God and know that I belong to Him.

At what point could my ETERNAL LIFE stop being eternal? God has promised NEVER to leave me or forsake me. At this point, disobedience to God's will (as revealed through the Bible) will interrupt my *fellowship* with Him but not my *relationship* to Him.

Good works result from an overflow of the Spirit of God within me and from gratitude to the Lord I love. Good works don't "buy" me anything with God on this earth, although they MAY result in a reward in Heaven. The reason I say "may" is because some of our good works are "wood, hay, and stubble" and will be burned up when they are tried by fire. Only the good works that are "gold, silver and bronze" will endure the test of fire and result in a reward in Heaven. What's the difference between these good works? I think that every good work that is not initiated in us by God are the "wood, hay and stubble." These are good things we thought up on our own to "do for God." The works that were prompted in us by the Holy Spirit, initiated by God, are the "gold, silver and bronze" and will endure the test of fire."

James talks about faith without works being dead. He doesn't say that it isn't faith. Just that it isn't productive, doesn't move others to accept Jesus, doesn't build anything in the kingdoms's work. Our works are done in obedience to the moving of the Holy Spirit in our life, and our works will be judged by God when we are in Heaven. They are not intended to be judged by each other while we are on earth. And they have NO bearing on our ability to enter Heaven.

The "great falling away" spoken of in the Bible (was that 2 Thessalonians, I forget) is of those who "profess to be Christians." Do we all agree that not everyone who professes to be a Christian really IS a Christian? The Bible tells us that Satan comes as an "angel of light" to lead us astray. But if we KNOW the Bible, we won't be deceived, because God will never lead us in a way that is contrary to the Bible. It is my belief that the "falling away" spoken of will be the separating out of those who are NOT Christians, but only profess to be or who think that they are, but are not. How can someone think that they are a Christian and NOT be? These could be people who are depending on something other than the blood of Jesus.

Example: "How long have you been a Christian?" "Oh, all my life - my parents had me baptised when I was a baby." That person is depending on something that somebody ELSE did for their salvation. BUZZ! Not a Christian, but they think they are.

Example: "Are you a Christian?" "Oh, yes, I go to church every Sunday." That person thinks that going to church means that they are a Christian. BUZZ! Not a Christian, but they think (or hope) that they are.

Example: "Are you a Christian?" "I'm trying to be. I don't hurt anybody, I pay my taxes, I follow the laws of the land, and I'm at LEAST as good as my neighbor who goes to church every Sunday, but they're a hippocrite!" This person thinks that if they're as good as their neighbor who goes to church, surely God can't turn them away from Heaven. BUZZ! Not a Christian, but hope they make it.

I think you get the picture. The only folks who are Christians are the ones who have thrown themselve on the mercy of the court. "I'm guilty! I'm a sinner! Oh, Jesus, please forgive my sins! I have nothing to offer to you, I have nothing good in me. Please come into my life and change me so that I can please you. Oh, thank you, Jesus, for saving me. I welcome the Holy Spirit into my life to guide me into your will."

That person will become aware of God all around them, because the Spirit will reveal Him. That person will realize that they are no longer alone. That person will become aware of their own activities that are sinful, and will turn away from them. They will become aware of needs in the lives of people they are around. They will share the love of Jesus with them and seek to ease their burdens. That person will learn the Bible. When the Deceiver comes to lead people astray, that person won't follow the stranger but will cling to Jesus.

God doesn't want us to worry about whether we can lose our salvation. He wants us to ENJOY being His child. He wants our praise and worship. He wants us to tell others what He has done in our life. He wants us to lead others to Jesus and increase His kinddom. He wants us to promote holiness and obedience to Him. The Bible says, "Will not the God of all the earth do right?" I think He will, and I trust Him.


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## Hooked Up

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mrs Backlasher again.

AMEN! Guy


Mrs Backlasher said:


> I think trout250's post sums it all up.
> 
> God has given me ETERNAL LIFE through the blood of Jesus paying for my sins (all of my sins, past, present, future). This ETERNAL LIFE was not earned, but was given to me freely as a gift as soon as I asked Jesus for His forgiveness and gave my life to Him. The Holy Spirit took up residence in my life as an earnest payment. He enables me to communicate with the Father and to know Him personally. Thereby I hear (not audibly) the voice of God and know that I belong to Him.
> 
> At what point could my ETERNAL LIFE stop being eternal? God has promised NEVER to leave me or forsake me. At this point, disobedience to God's will (as revealed through the Bible) will interrupt my *fellowship* with Him but not my *relationship* to Him.
> 
> Good works result from an overflow of the Spirit of God within me and from gratitude to the Lord I love. Good works don't "buy" me anything with God on this earth, although they MAY result in a reward in Heaven. The reason I say "may" is because some of our good works are "wood, hay, and stubble" and will be burned up when they are tried by fire. Only the good works that are "gold, silver and bronze" will endure the test of fire and result in a reward in Heaven. What's the difference between these good works? I think that every good work that is not initiated in us by God are the "wood, hay and stubble." These are good things we thought up on our own to "do for God." The works that were prompted in us by the Holy Spirit, initiated by God, are the "gold, silver and bronze" and will endure the test of fire."
> 
> James talks about faith without works being dead. He doesn't say that it isn't faith. Just that it isn't productive, doesn't move others to accept Jesus, doesn't build anything in the kingdoms's work. Our works are done in obedience to the moving of the Holy Spirit in our life, and our works will be judged by God when we are in Heaven. They are not intended to be judged by each other while we are on earth. And they have NO bearing on our ability to enter Heaven.
> 
> The "great falling away" spoken of in the Bible (was that 2 Thessalonians, I forget) is of those who "profess to be Christians." Do we all agree that not everyone who professes to be a Christian really IS a Christian? The Bible tells us that Satan comes as an "angel of light" to lead us astray. But if we KNOW the Bible, we won't be deceived, because God will never lead us in a way that is contrary to the Bible. It is my belief that the "falling away" spoken of will be the separating out of those who are NOT Christians, but only profess to be or who think that they are, but are not. How can someone think that they are a Christian and NOT be? These could be people who are depending on something other than the blood of Jesus.
> 
> Example: "How long have you been a Christian?" "Oh, all my life - my parents had me baptised when I was a baby." That person is depending on something that somebody ELSE did for their salvation. BUZZ! Not a Christian, but they think they are.
> 
> Example: "Are you a Christian?" "Oh, yes, I go to church every Sunday." That person thinks that going to church means that they are a Christian. BUZZ! Not a Christian, but they think (or hope) that they are.
> 
> Example: "Are you a Christian?" "I'm trying to be. I don't hurt anybody, I pay my taxes, I follow the laws of the land, and I'm at LEAST as good as my neighbor who goes to church every Sunday, but they're a hippocrite!" This person thinks that if they're as good as their neighbor who goes to church, surely God can't turn them away from Heaven. BUZZ! Not a Christian, but hope they make it.
> 
> I think you get the picture. The only folks who are Christians are the ones who have thrown themselve on the mercy of the court. "I'm guilty! I'm a sinner! Oh, Jesus, please forgive my sins! I have nothing to offer to you, I have nothing good in me. Please come into my life and change me so that I can please you. Oh, thank you, Jesus, for saving me. I welcome the Holy Spirit into my life to guide me into your will."
> 
> That person will become aware of God all around them, because the Spirit will reveal Him. That person will realize that they are no longer alone. That person will become aware of their own activities that are sinful, and will turn away from them. They will become aware of needs in the lives of people they are around. They will share the love of Jesus with them and seek to ease their burdens. That person will learn the Bible. When the Deceiver comes to lead people astray, that person won't follow the stranger but will cling to Jesus.
> 
> God doesn't want us to worry about whether we can lose our salvation. He wants us to ENJOY being His child. He wants our praise and worship. He wants us to tell others what He has done in our life. He wants us to lead others to Jesus and increase His kinddom. He wants us to promote holiness and obedience to Him. The Bible says, "Will not the God of all the earth do right?" I think He will, and I trust Him.


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## LIONESS-270

Inspiration MrsB. Love and Inspiring....Thank You..


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## Bay Gal

Trout250 summed it up, but your elaboration made it so much clearer. You have a gift of sharing the word, the meaning, and by example, the works and deeds that are pleasing to the Lord. All I could add to that post would just be a big AMEN!

ps. And a thank you for taking the time to type out such a wonderful post.



Mrs Backlasher said:


> I think trout250's post sums it all up.
> 
> God has given me ETERNAL LIFE through the blood of Jesus paying for my sins (all of my sins, past, present, future). This ETERNAL LIFE was not earned, but was given to me freely as a gift as soon as I asked Jesus for His forgiveness and gave my life to Him. The Holy Spirit took up residence in my life as an earnest payment. He enables me to communicate with the Father and to know Him personally. Thereby I hear (not audibly) the voice of God and know that I belong to Him.
> 
> At what point could my ETERNAL LIFE stop being eternal? God has promised NEVER to leave me or forsake me. At this point, disobedience to God's will (as revealed through the Bible) will interrupt my *fellowship* with Him but not my *relationship* to Him.
> 
> Good works result from an overflow of the Spirit of God within me and from gratitude to the Lord I love. Good works don't "buy" me anything with God on this earth, although they MAY result in a reward in Heaven. The reason I say "may" is because some of our good works are "wood, hay, and stubble" and will be burned up when they are tried by fire. Only the good works that are "gold, silver and bronze" will endure the test of fire and result in a reward in Heaven. What's the difference between these good works? I think that every good work that is not initiated in us by God are the "wood, hay and stubble." These are good things we thought up on our own to "do for God." The works that were prompted in us by the Holy Spirit, initiated by God, are the "gold, silver and bronze" and will endure the test of fire."
> 
> James talks about faith without works being dead. He doesn't say that it isn't faith. Just that it isn't productive, doesn't move others to accept Jesus, doesn't build anything in the kingdoms's work. Our works are done in obedience to the moving of the Holy Spirit in our life, and our works will be judged by God when we are in Heaven. They are not intended to be judged by each other while we are on earth. And they have NO bearing on our ability to enter Heaven.
> 
> The "great falling away" spoken of in the Bible (was that 2 Thessalonians, I forget) is of those who "profess to be Christians." Do we all agree that not everyone who professes to be a Christian really IS a Christian? The Bible tells us that Satan comes as an "angel of light" to lead us astray. But if we KNOW the Bible, we won't be deceived, because God will never lead us in a way that is contrary to the Bible. It is my belief that the "falling away" spoken of will be the separating out of those who are NOT Christians, but only profess to be or who think that they are, but are not. How can someone think that they are a Christian and NOT be? These could be people who are depending on something other than the blood of Jesus.
> 
> Example: "How long have you been a Christian?" "Oh, all my life - my parents had me baptised when I was a baby." That person is depending on something that somebody ELSE did for their salvation. BUZZ! Not a Christian, but they think they are.
> 
> Example: "Are you a Christian?" "Oh, yes, I go to church every Sunday." That person thinks that going to church means that they are a Christian. BUZZ! Not a Christian, but they think (or hope) that they are.
> 
> Example: "Are you a Christian?" "I'm trying to be. I don't hurt anybody, I pay my taxes, I follow the laws of the land, and I'm at LEAST as good as my neighbor who goes to church every Sunday, but they're a hippocrite!" This person thinks that if they're as good as their neighbor who goes to church, surely God can't turn them away from Heaven. BUZZ! Not a Christian, but hope they make it.
> 
> I think you get the picture. The only folks who are Christians are the ones who have thrown themselve on the mercy of the court. "I'm guilty! I'm a sinner! Oh, Jesus, please forgive my sins! I have nothing to offer to you, I have nothing good in me. Please come into my life and change me so that I can please you. Oh, thank you, Jesus, for saving me. I welcome the Holy Spirit into my life to guide me into your will."
> 
> That person will become aware of God all around them, because the Spirit will reveal Him. That person will realize that they are no longer alone. That person will become aware of their own activities that are sinful, and will turn away from them. They will become aware of needs in the lives of people they are around. They will share the love of Jesus with them and seek to ease their burdens. That person will learn the Bible. When the Deceiver comes to lead people astray, that person won't follow the stranger but will cling to Jesus.
> 
> God doesn't want us to worry about whether we can lose our salvation. He wants us to ENJOY being His child. He wants our praise and worship. He wants us to tell others what He has done in our life. He wants us to lead others to Jesus and increase His kinddom. He wants us to promote holiness and obedience to Him. The Bible says, "Will not the God of all the earth do right?" I think He will, and I trust Him.


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## WAHOO-YAHOO

This has been a wonderful post. The original question "once saved always saved" is tricky. Once truely save, one wont turn their back on the Lord. Truely saved. That's the point in our lives when we give up our lives to Christ, die to ourself and our nature and filter our lives through the word of God. If something you do is against the instruction of God, it will become distasteful, ugly and obvious to us that it is wrong. we loose the desire to enjoy it. To cut-n-paste the Bible verses to prove that point would be to post the New Testament. So .....see the New Testament.

God blees you all. Thanks for the great read.

Erik


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## luv2fish

Praise God. Ms B that was right on target. If a person is genuinely been saved, they become a new creature and the world sees true change. That is the real testimony.

There are alot of people who "SAY" they know the Lord, but does their life refect it. ??


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## twitch-twitch-reel

So, if your life doesn't reflect the fact you are saved then are you saved? or should i say are you still saved?


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## Doubless

"But if we KNOW the Bible, we won't be deceived, because God will never lead us in a way that is contrary to the Bible."

Well, Mrs. B., with all respect, what do you do with the words of the apostle Paul, as copied below, direct from the KJV?

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thess. 2:11-12


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## Mrs Backlasher

Doubless,

If you'll read my post again, you'll see that I'm talking about Christians. "But if WE (Christians) know the Bible, we won't be deceived, because God will never lead US (Christians) in a way that is contrary to the Bible."

The passage you quoted is talking about people who are NOT Christians, also known as "unbelievers." "And for this cause God shall send them (unbelievers) strong delusion, that they (unbelievers) should believe a lie: that they all (unbelievers) might be damned *who believed not the truth*, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Paul didn't say God would send "us" strong delusion, he said "them."


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## SKSOUTH

Very inspiring, AMEN


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## Hogpaw

Sorry to be so slow responding to the faith without works post.

Ephesians 2:8-9: Says that we cannot earn heaven on our own. Without Christ it is impossible to go to heaven since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We can't do anything to deserve heaven. We are but lost souls without Christ.

James 2 is not in conflict with Ephesians. It says faith without works is dead. 
If you picture it this way it is very clear. Let's say somone is very poor and there is no such thing as financial aid through scholarships or the government. I tell that person that I will pay for their college. Now do they have a bachelor's degree? No. Why? They have to do the work to get it. You see by grace (an un earned favor) they received the means of obtaining a degree. I didn't give them a degree. They got it because they followed the rules and did the work. If they didn't do the work would they have a degree? No. If they did the work wrong would they have a degree? No. If they decided that they would interpret the instructions to fit their desires, because they don't believe it could actually require effort on their own part would they have a degree? No. Only those who do follow the rules will receive the degree. And only by grace that someone allowed them the means of doing it.

*Philipians 2:12 - 13- *
* 12So then, my beloved, (Z)just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your (AA)salvation with (AB)fear and trembling; 13for it is (AC)God who is at work in you, both to will and to work (AD)for His good pleasure*

God will judge everyone. No one will be exempt. He is very gracious. He sent Jesus to make atonment for our sins. God does expect obedience. Under the Old Law (Mosiac) were the Isrealites allowed to make the law fit the times over the 1500 years it was in effect? No. God punished them. God will punish those who don't obey what he says. He will even punish some who think they are saved. 
*Matthew 7:21 - 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' *

*Hebrews 10:31 - 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.*

Now I would like to post this again with the explaination above.
*James 2:14-26:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." 
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[**a**]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[**b**] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.*


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## Mrs Backlasher

It could be stated in reverse also:

Without faith, deeds are dead. No amount of good works will justify a person before God. If a person is trusting in their good deeds to get them into Heaven, the measuring stick is the life of Jesus. Who can live up to that? Not ONE sin.

It was stated in scripture, that after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, that following the law is to no avail. If a person wants to follow the Hebrew law for their salvation, they must follow it to the letter. If they offend in any one point of the law, they have broken the entire law, and THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE for their sin. The blood of bulls and goats NO LONGER AVAILS. Only the blood of Jesus is effective now.

Certainly, genuine faith in Jesus is accompanied by good works. But God is our judge, not man.

If we believe a thing is true, we'll act upon it. If we believe a hurricane will hit our area next week, we likely will make preparations - gasoline, batteries, plywood. The activity is prompted by the belief. (As it was in the case of Rahab.) But buying gasoline, batteries, and plywood will not MAKE a hurricane hit our area. That's the cart pushing the horse, as is a works-based system of salvation.

I couldn't do anything to earn my salvation. I can't do anything to become unsaved again, or that would make me stronger than the hand of God, who holds me. That's the same God who said he'd never leave me or forsake me.


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## Mrs Backlasher

If you want to talk about the *possibility* that a person can lose their salvation, you also should mention *if* it were possible to lose, it could NOT be regained. There is no on-again/off-again Christianity.

Hebrews 6 (NLT)

1So let us stop going over the basics of Christianity again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don't need to start all over again with the importance of turning away from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. 2You don't need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding. 
4For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come-- 6and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.


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