# Congressman Nick Lampson invites Roy Crabtree to Clearlake



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Congressman Nick Lampson has invited Dr. Roy Crabtree to have a Town Hall style meeting April 25th at 6:30pm to discuss the Red Snapper issue. We need to know how many will attend asap. They had a room for fifty and I told that 400 may be more suitable Grass Roots works folks.

This is a very important Meeting as we will be heard.

MEETING LOCATION:
University of Houston Clear Lake

2700 Bay Area Blvd.

Houston, TX 77058

Bayou Theater 

2nd Floor of the Bayou Building

Parking available in Lot D, located behind the Bayou Building

Please RSVP to [email protected]


----------



## Hughoo222 (Aug 24, 2005)

I will be there!


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

This is going to be a very unique opportunity to get some answers. We need to get this in the local papers up and down the coast.


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Count me in!!


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

Thats next friday......

I'll be there.

BTW: What should we bring?

*MB*


----------



## freespool (Oct 1, 2005)

Dang,
Right in the middle of the Corpus boat show that I need to be at.
I will send a couple of my guy's


----------



## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

No matter your politics or how turns out this is a big deal and my thanks to Nick for this unique opportunity as Monty correctly called it.

Now if we do not pack the meeting hall with numbers similar to the Dickinson meeting Shame On Us! 

And lets try to help smarr out by rsvping the email, it's fine to announce your intention on hear but he doesn't need to be reconciling two lists.

GOOD WORK JIM!!!!!


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

Levelwind said:


> No matter your politics or how turns out this is a big deal and my thanks to Nick for this unique opportunity as Monty correctly called it.
> 
> *Now if we do not pack the meeting hall with numbers similar to the Dickinson meeting Shame On Us!
> *
> ...


There have been many who have posted on this topic....

Its now time to take a stand......

Stand Up and Be Counted..

*MB*


----------



## oldtrackster (Jul 20, 2007)

Some one please tell this simple country boy where this meeting is going to be. A physical address would be great for getting driving directions.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

We will post it up. It will be in the Clear Lake area. The room was set for fifty. I asked for 400 since this is a hot item. They are working on a location to accomadate the crowd.

I believe 350 to 400 is going to be tight. Let me know via [email protected]

Thanks Congressman Lampson for standing tall on the Red Snapper Issue for the Sportsmen of Texas. We will remember election time and return the favor.


----------



## oldtrackster (Jul 20, 2007)

To make sure I am correct. Clear Lake is the area of the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex?


----------



## manintheboat (Jun 1, 2004)

count me in.


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

oldtrackster said:


> To make sure I am correct. Clear Lake is the area of the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex?


Clear Lake is between Houston and Galveston on I-45


----------



## oldtrackster (Jul 20, 2007)

Mont said:


> Clear Lake is between Houston and Galveston on I-45


Ahh yes that makes much more sense. I am looking at coming from central TX down through Austin. Anyone on here willing to carpool for shared gas expense. Anyone recommend a head boat out of the area for Saturday. (Not the captain john or affiliates.)


----------



## WestEndAngler (Jan 30, 2007)

Do they have trailer parking for my boat?


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

WE will make room.


----------



## gostomskij (Jan 14, 2005)

I'll be there. Will let the guys at work know also. Hummm, maybe I'll require attendance at the meeting as a condition for going on my boat this year. A hall pass if you will.









Victor


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

OK Jim he is invited but did he accept the invitaion ??

Charlie


----------



## CaptDoug (May 24, 2004)

I will be there with 3 or 4 more in tow. That's a good date, the day before Snapper season *USED TO START*!


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Yes sir Dr. Crabtree is committed to Congressman Lampson.


----------



## 86228 (Apr 28, 2006)

Jim I am in for sure. Why not have it at the park on the north side of NASSA I down from the boat ramp there is a huge covered area there.


----------



## Capt Mike 1 (Mar 9, 2005)

*meeting*

Count me in.....

Capt Mike Segall
www.reelthreel.com
Reel Threel Charters


----------



## Team Ranger Bob (Jul 13, 2004)

*Count me in!*

Well I really could care less about snapper, but we need to start sticking together, regardless if we fish inshore or offshore, Pro, Guide or Rec.

I will be there to add to the numbers and help my deep water friends as best as I can.

United we stand and well, we have all seen the rest.

Ranger Bob


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

I will be there all the way from Lufkin, anyone wanna share a ride?


----------



## offshoreaddict (Jul 26, 2006)

i will try my hardest to be there.i suppose to work that day but ill try to take a personal day. bobby m.


----------



## Mike Jennings (Oct 11, 2005)

Jim

ill send an email also, but count Capt Mike Hutto and myself in ,, we both have to fish that day, so i hope it dosent offend anyone if we show up smelling like red snapper !


----------



## gstringer (Mar 31, 2008)

*In*

I will be there.My radio show starts April 23 in Houston on 97.5FM ESPN radio from 7-9 pm all about the outdoors and I will let everyone know about it.


----------



## awesum (May 31, 2006)

Well hell's bells. I am off that day but have to be at work here in CC at 5 AM the next morning. I would love to make the trip.

Let's be mindful of Dr. Crabtree's status and be respectful in telling him to kiss off .... OK?


----------



## Captfry (May 21, 2004)

Mike Jennings said:


> Jim
> 
> ill send an email also, but count Capt Mike Hutto and myself in ,, we both have to fish that day, so i hope it dosent offend anyone if we show up smelling like red snapper !


Mike maybe you could bring a few extra Snapper for a fish fry feeding 300+ rec. fishermen.

Saltlick and I will be there.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

I was at a political ralley in Sugar Land with 3800 people there to support a Lady running for Congress. The President flew in. Well guess what I was told today. The White House is behind the Enviros on this Red Snapper Issue. The White House is under the impression the broodstock has disappeared thanks to the Enviro Lawsuit and Phony Shrimp bycatch numbers of 80% when we knew the current data was 26%. Now I better understand the unholy alliance last year in Washington. If you wanted to get rid of the for hire sector as many have for years this is the way to do it without being up front about it.

The Red Snapper issue is much more important than a rally for a Lady running for Congress. We need the largest turn out ever seen for a fisheries issue. We have to have big numbers.

We at RFA support the For Hire Sector 100% as most recreational sector folks access their fishery via a for hire sector boat.


----------



## CurlyQz (Jun 10, 2007)

*contituents in?*

As a constiuent of Mr. Lampson's, I'll be there. As a member of RFA, I'll be there. I encourage others in his district (22) to show up.

Jim, I'll be happy to help on the phones to get a meeting space.

-Missy


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Thanks Missy, 

The staff has been busy trying to get a very large venue. Read my last post number 30. We need to have people standing outside. Texans and the entire Gulf are upset with the way NMFS has ramroded this issue for years. We have known for years the big female snapper are still on the mud flats. The NMFS only count dead fish so when the longliners were moved to the fifty fathom curve dead large fish stopped being caught.
The computer decided the stock had crashed just because the longliners were no longer fishing where they live on the mud flats. Correcting this one issue would take us out of an overfished status and save the for hire sector. The Enviros would be heart broken as we would get our season restored and the for hire sector would be alive and well without MPA's or IFQ's. 

Missy we can't thank Conressman Lampson enough for asking the Fisheries Service to attend the Town Hall Meeting. We need to stop everything and attend this meeting.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

*Thanks to all for replying*

We appreciate the interest in this meeting. I know everyone is busy. We really need a fantastic turnout. Congressman Lampson is working to help us. We have to let him know we appreciate his help as he has many different problems when he in the District to deal with. He needs to be able to go back to Washington and tell his fellow Members of Congress how many people came to voice their 
thoughts. Congress needs to understand we are a user group that will get
involved.


----------



## BigBird737 (May 15, 2007)

me and my dad are going to the meeting and have room for 2 more in the truck if any one from Katy needs a ride send me a pm we need as many as we can get here folks this is our chance:cheers:


----------



## longboarder (May 28, 2004)

*Have you asked TPWD to attend Mr. Smarr?*

I was wondering if you had asked TPWD Fisheries Division or TPWD Law Enforcement to attend? I think it would be a good idea to have their representation there also. I think the Fisheries Divison office is in Dickinson, and the Law Enforcement in La Marque. I am sure if you called those offices and requested some representatives, they would send some people.


----------



## fender bender (Mar 31, 2006)

I hope to meet some 2-coolers this trip,this looks like a good time to call for the mother of all 2-cool gatherings! Tail gate party!!Hope the weather will let me get some time on the water.


----------



## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

See Charlie, you don't have to have a PHD behind your name to meet with this man or have your questions answerd, he's just proved that Congressmen and Senators get his attention also, not some lowly Mayor who's spent more time on the water than the Flagship. Would be nice if some of our other Texans in Gov would show, listen and respond with something OTHER than the form letters we recieve in response to our emails. WW


CHARLIE said:


> OK Jim he is invited but did he accept the invitaion ??
> 
> Charlie


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

WW

You know you are rite on there but let me tell you about Lampson. He is the only and I mean only elected federal official who will actually call you back. He has helped this lowly Mayor with issues the other feds would not even consider doing (Hutchinson @ Cronyn) they are just post office boxes as you say they just forward your letters and then say I am glad I could help. Lampson is for real and still has not become a "professional" politician. He no longer is our rep at Tiki but I can talk with him anytime and if he can help he will. I suggested to Jim that we support him a while back and its been well worth it. Smarr (RFA) has been working his butt off representing us recreational fisherman on this snapper issue. We need a showing at this meeting so others (states) can follow or try to follow Texas regarding this NMFS issue. They(NMFS) need to be exposed, they need to be held accountable for their total failure and scams. I will see that the Galveston Daily news is there. We need the Houston papers and TV there too..

Charlie


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

You can always sit on your butt at home and complain about how it turns out, Ernest.


----------



## otte (Apr 3, 2005)

I just love how quickly things turn negative. I have gotten responses from Ted Poe, and both of the senators in Texas and none of them has lifted a finger for this issue. Nick Lampson is the first to try & do ANYTHING ! I don't give a **** if it is election year motivation or not, this is the first chance we have had to get Crabtree in a face to face outside of the NMFS staged meetings where meeting protacal is the theme of the day. I sure hope we get the word out and a have tremendous showing, minus Ernest of coarse. Frankly we don't need that negativity at the meeting. Also, thanks to Jim Smarr for all his efforts.


----------



## CaptDoug (May 24, 2004)

Ernest said:


> AFL-CIO Lampson? Mr. NEA? The guy voting with the Demos 84% of the time, favorably rated by the enviros, voted "yes" on Kyoto Protocol, and voted to set time tables to bring troops home from Iraq? That guy?
> 
> 19 years as a Tax Assessor in East Texas, and then in Congress, but some want to claim he is not a professional politician? What?
> 
> ...


Earnest, I'll take my chances with Lampson any day over the ever absent Republican representatives. Lampson has been very visible in the community since being in office. I have spoken with him face to face in the past, something i've never been able to do to any other elected official. Complain all you want, where is our Republican elected officials? Maybe you can get them to come and take part! I'm sure they will be welcome to attend as well.


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Or, we can recognize up front that this is little more than some sort of feel good campaign program for a Kyoto supporting, "bring the troops home" Demo in a potentially tight race. 

In fact, I actually think its funny that after all this - walking hand in hand with enviro's - propaganda some on your team have been shoveling, y'll would even consider a fund raising/vote gathering event with this Dude. 

"How it turns out" would seem to assume this guy will help your cause. Where has he been for the past 12 years? See no evil, hear no evil? Spending his precious energies voting against school vouchers and trying to force Bush's hand on Iraq? 

Yeah, thats the ticket, he is going to help y'll now (if he can only get re-elected). 

But, in the end, it is not as though I care how y'll get pimp out.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Ernest Congressman Lampson signed of on Flexibility in the Magnuson HR5425 recently.
This did not make friends in the enviro crowd. You are full of venom this morning. The Congressman has been very helpful in supporting Fisheries items and the Reefing Project.

The White House is being run by Enviros hence a 60 day fishing season. The unholy alliance did have the ear of the White House. We support Congressman Lampson as he has shown to have supported items during this term we needed support on. Mr. Ortiz and Mr. Paul also have helped. Ted Poe is missing in action as far as fisheries matters.
We need to elect people responsive to hunting and fishing issues when they arrise.

Ernest there are several items that could be done to solve the problem in sixty days or less if implemented. The Gulf Members of Congress could force the issues without formal Congressional Votes.

RFA is a 501-C-4 Political .ORG and we support the men that have supported Recreational Anglers in Texas. I can say Congressman Lampson answers his cel phone when we call him. We visited with him about his previous stances before we supported him. We will support him again.

Ernest are you in Mr. Lampsons District. If not has your Member of Congress held a Town Hall Meeting?


----------



## Angler 1 (Apr 27, 2005)

Atleast he is getting Crabtree here.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*Lampson*

Howdy,
Good 'ol Ernest - somebody is actually stepping up to the plate for us from Washington, and because he is not a neo-con like you Ernest, you start firing away at him.

I live in Lampson's CD-22 district - I have attended a few of the many town hall meetings that he regularly puts on. You walk into a room and you have one-on-one access to the Congressman. Unprecedented.

It surely beats the heck out of his predecessor Tom Delay. He was the "Hammer", and his constituents were the "Nails".

I am a conservative, but Mr. Lampson WILL get my vote in November.

I will also be at the meeting next Friday.

Tom Hilton


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

> Where has he been for the past 12 years?


way back when, he was in a face to face meeting with us on snapper in Galveston. He's also my former congressman, for whom I voted for. Perhaps you have some constructive suggestions of how to knock the issue off dead center. Attending meetings is the best answer I have and I am actually going to drive from Somerville to this meeting during my personal vacation, because I feel like it's that important.


----------



## manintheboat (Jun 1, 2004)

I am going to the meeting because Crabtree will be there, not to give a political "high five" to Lampson. I don't think you have to pledge your devotion/ vote to Lampson to gain entry, but I could be wrong. 

To be honest, I appreciate Lampson for what he is doing, but it does not mean he is getting my vote. The irony of him being in favor of Kyoto while being opposed to the enviros on fisheries management is not lost on me, but I will be there anyway. This situation is way to important to me to not show up because I have a distaste for democrats.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Mr. H.

Thanks for understanding to see the good that can come from this meeting. I never agree with the entire works of any Member of Congress. The thing is Mr. Lampson could 
see from the turn out he needs to focus on local issues and not party line issues. He has been a big help and will help with the Reefing Permit we so dearly need.


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Well, we all know what Ernest's profession is, or at least most of us do. With that said how could you expect anything else other than argument from him?

Jim I commend you and Nick, and as far as I see it, at least SOMEONE is doing something trying to get this debacle straightened up. Others are doing nothing other than running folks down and trying to come up with reasons why it won't work.

IMO, regardles of your political views this to me is a step in the right direction. At least Crabtree can see how many folks *in just one area* feel about it. Maybe he can apply that to his "models" and realize the magnitude of upset fishermen everywhere along the Gulf Coast!


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Ernest said:


> Most of his fund raising is from lawyers, unions, and teachers. Thats the guy y'll are promising to help?


I have a question for you Ernest. What exactly do you do for a living?


----------



## manintheboat (Jun 1, 2004)

To be honest Snap, the problem isn't that Crabtree doesn't know how we feel about the current state of fisheries management. I am confident that he is well aware of that at this point.


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

otte said:


> I just love how quickly things turn negative. I have gotten responses from Ted Poe, and both of the senators in Texas and none of them has lifted a finger for this issue.


I totally agree with you there! Hopefully we can elect someone in our district that will help us out. It sure as hell is not Ted Poe! I called and had everyone I know call and ask him to sign off on HR 5425, but to no avail.

Ted Poe is not for recreational fishermen and I will make sure everyone in the Golden Triangle knows that. I am thinking about having billboards made even if I have to write the checks for them myself!!


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

manintheboat said:


> To be honest Snap, the problem isn't that Crabtree doesn't know how we feel about the current state of fisheries management. I am confident that he is well aware of that at this point.


I realize that, but some pressure and the "Little Big Horn" effect could not hurt at all. Hopefully he soils his depends from all of it!!!


----------



## 86228 (Apr 28, 2006)

*Good Man*



Team Ranger Bob said:


> Well I really could care less about snapper, but we need to start sticking together, regardless if we fish inshore or offshore, Pro, Guide or Rec.
> 
> I will be there to add to the numbers and help my deep water friends as best as I can.
> 
> ...


 Team Ranger Bob you have a good additude! Back in the early 70's I was not a bay fisherman but, I helped Acie's grandfather my uncle, Clyde Lester get siginatures for the GCCA at that time fighting for rec fisherman to be able to catch Red Drum and Speckled Sea Trout. Glad to have you aboard. Evidently Acie helps you some so get him to take a day off and we will go off-shore fishing.


----------



## manintheboat (Jun 1, 2004)

Snap Draggin said:


> I realize that, but some pressure and the "Little Big Horn" effect could not hurt at all. Hopefully he soils his depends from all of it!!!


don't count on it.


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Ernesto is employed as an attorney, although thats just a temp gig until I go off the grid, grow some dreadlocks, cover my flesh in body art, and move down south to fish full time. 

And, Ernesto is no neo-con. More like a free trade, small government, strong defense, oligarchist. Originally, more of a support of a plutocracy, but I have refined my position as I matured.


----------



## Bill Fisher (Apr 12, 2006)

Ernest said:


> Ernesto is employed as an attorney, although thats just a temp gig until I go off the grid, grow some dreadlocks, cover my flesh in body art, and move down south to fish full time.


SPI, eh?

...... and drink beer with the coms?


----------



## 2wahoo (May 21, 2004)

Bill Fisher said:


> SPI, eh?
> 
> ...... and drink beer with the coms?


Or maybe drink with the shrimpers who are responsible for the so-called 80% by-catch snapper kill. You know, the ones that are rusted out and already sitting on the bottom.


----------



## Old Whaler (Sep 6, 2005)

I not taking sides here, but has anyone contacted Pete Olson on this matter? I live in CD-22 and Mr. Lampson will be in for a tough fight this Fall and it would be good to know where Olson stands on this.


----------



## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

I have to attend continuing education that day up in Houston. It lets out at 6:00 pm and I will plan to attend afterwards.


----------



## En Fuego (Jul 26, 2006)

Ernest - 
What is better for you, supporting somone who will at least take the time and feign interest and possibly help you and your cause, or someone you know for fact could care less if you and your Neo-con friends live or die, much less fish?

My uncle has had numerous dealings with KBH and is a pretty forgiving guy - swears he has house plants with a higher IQ, and that she is a rude, pretentious b*tch.

I personally met and spoke with John Cornhole about 10 years ago for over an hour, and even as a young man, I was taken aback at how utterly unimpressive he was - he had the depth of a mud puddle.

Now we have a guy, that regardless of his party colors, has made time in his schedule NOT ONLY to ANSWER us in our hour of need, but will actually come to our area and openly dicuss the issue with the man who is at the head of the issue.

What i suggest is that before you run your mouth (quite a tall order for a lawyer), you shut your pie hole and call one of your neo-con buddies in DC and 1. see if they will give you the time of day, 2. see if they give a **** about who you are and what you want, and 3. get them to take more than 2 minutes of their precious time away from the big oil and pharma gravy train to do what Lampson is doing.

In other words, put your mouth where your money is.

And no, I am not a liberal or a Democrat.

Jim - Mont - see you next Friday.


----------



## En Fuego (Jul 26, 2006)

I knew i forgot something - Where are my meds?


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Ernest said:


> Ernesto is employed as an attorney, although thats just a temp gig until I go off the grid, grow some dreadlocks, cover my flesh in body art, and move down south to fish full time.
> 
> And, Ernesto is no neo-con. More like a free trade, small government, strong defense, oligarchist. Originally, more of a support of a plutocracy, but I have refined my position as I matured.


Sooo what position have you refined? The attorney one that you so adamantly spoke against in your post, or the one where you believe the rich should rule as in what Iraq had for instance. And for the record I am somewhat of a neocon myself who believes in less government as well, but I believe if the person is doing the right thing do not be so cynical about it. BTW is it an election year for Nick at this time anyhow?


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Ole Ernest just loves to get yall are fired up and he is just great at it..Laugh with him..

Charlie


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

Who is ernest?


----------



## Bill Fisher (Apr 12, 2006)

BEER4BAIT said:


> Who is ernest?


i'll be frank if you'll be ernest......


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

hello frank lol


----------



## oldtrackster (Jul 20, 2007)

Bill Fisher said:


> i'll be frank if you'll be ernest......


Sorry must spread some rep before giving it to Bill Fisher again. Funny stuff. So back to the topic who else is going and what is the count so far? Mr. Smarr is there an agenda or goal in meeting with a crabtree?


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

From plutocracy to oligarchy. Admittedly a subtle refinement of my position, but a change nonetheless.


----------



## manintheboat (Jun 1, 2004)

That is funny. I always took you for a nihilist.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*neo-con*

Howdy,

Ernest is not a Neo-Con, he does not provide free legal services for CCA, is not a member of the CCA, nor is he affiliated with the CCA in any way! lol

Seriously though, I do believe he supports the Ocean Conservancy.

Tom


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

manintheboat said:


> That is funny. I always took you for a nihilist.


LMAO!!!!:rotfl:


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

the nihilist in San Angelo want their children back


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

*nihilist ?*

I had to look up this NIHILISM word since I'm not as sophisticated as the others here....

Earnest you never fail to amaze me....

BTW: I don't much care for Nick either, BUT I will stand with anyone on this Topic ( including a Nihilism believer ). LOL

I hope you show up Ernest..

*MB*

Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position which argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Nihilists generally assert some or all of the following:
Objective morality does not exist; therefore no action is preferable to any other.
In the absence of morality, existence has no higher meaning or goal.
There is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler or creator.
Even if there exists a higher ruler or creator, mankind has no moral obligation to worship him.
The term nihilism is sometimes used synonymously with anomie to denote a general mood of despair at the pointlessness of existence.[1]
Movements such as Dada, Futurism,[2] and deconstructionism,[3] among others, have been identified by commentators as "nihilistic" at various times in various contexts. Often this means or is meant to imply that the beliefs of the accuser are more substantial or truthful, whereas the beliefs of the accused are nihilistic, and thereby comparatively amount to nothing (or are simply claimed to be destructively amoralistic).
Nihilism is also a characteristic that has been ascribed to time periods: for example, Jean Baudrillard and others have called postmodernity a nihilistic epoch,[4] and some Christian theologians and figures of religious authority have asserted that postmodernity[5] and many aspects of modernity[3] represent the rejection of God, and therefore are nihilistic.
Nihilism differs from skepticism in that skepticism doesn't reject claims to religion outright; it only rejects these claims if there is insufficient empirical evidence to support them.[citation needed] Additionally, skepticism does not necessarily come to any conclusions about the reality of moral concepts nor does it deal so intimately with questions about the meaning of an existence without knowable truth.
In the domain of ethics, nihilist or nihilistic is often used as a derogatory term referring to a complete rejection of all systems of authority, morality, and social norms, or one who purportedly makes such a rejection. Either through the rejection of previously accepted bases of belief or through extreme relativism or skepticism, the moral nihilist is construed as one who believes that none of these claims to power are valid. Nihilism not only dismisses received moral values, but rejects 'morality' outright.


----------



## Hughoo222 (Aug 24, 2005)

....now give us zee money Lebowski.....


----------



## En Fuego (Jul 26, 2006)

MMMMMMMMMMMMM - Lexapro

Ernie, I luv ya man!!!


----------



## manintheboat (Jun 1, 2004)

Obviously not many of you people are golfers


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

Golf? whats that? Snapcon may know LOL


----------



## Javadrinker (Feb 13, 2008)

goes to look up golf


----------



## Hughoo222 (Aug 24, 2005)

*not a golfer........*









*Where's my snapper man....and my rug too?*



manintheboat said:


> Obviously not many of you people are golfers


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

*Meeting Location April 25th 6:30pm*

University of Houston Clear Lake

2700 Bay Area Blvd.

Houston, TX 77058

Bayou Theater 

2nd Floor of the Bayou Building

Parking available in Lot D, located behind the Bayou Building

Room will hold 500.

We need it full.


----------



## fender bender (Mar 31, 2006)

Jim, how can we fill the room only posting on the bluewater link? I type with one finger and can' t spell so I am not the one to get everyone onboard but would love to see way more than 500 show up. I know how much you do and thank you for it, but if you have a magic wand you may need to pull it out soon. P.S. check the batteries in the wand before you need it.


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

I would encourage all of you that have a newspaper delivered to your home or office to submit a letter to the editor announcing this meeting. I submitted the following to the Galveston Daily News. You may use it verbatim if you wish or write your own. 

====

A town hall meeting concerning the current Red Snapper crisis in the Gulf of Mexico will be held at 6:30 PM on Friday, April 25th in Clear Lake. Congressman Nick Lampson will attend along with Dr. Roy Crabtree of the Gulf Council. Discussion of the recently shortened recreational season will be held along with a question and answer period. The meeting will be at the University of Houston, Clear Lake, 2700 Bay Area, at the Bayou Theater on the second floor of the Bayou Building. All anglers in this fishery are encourage to attend and voice their opinion on the current state of the fishery.


----------



## awesum (May 31, 2006)

fender bender said:


> Jim, how can we fill the room only posting on the bluewater link? I type with one finger and can' t spell so I am not the one to get everyone onboard but would love to see way more than 500 show up. I know how much you do and thank you for it, but if you have a magic wand you may need to pull it out soon. P.S. check the batteries in the wand before you need it.


Phone calls, phones calls, phone calls!

When we had the meeting down here recently I was amazed at the bait stands and boat operators that I called that weren't even aware of the meeting. Challenge your friends and foes.

We might ought to start a separate thread of questions we'd like to have presented for some us working stiffs that are unable to make the trip up there.

As Uncle Ted says....*"We need to be cocked .... locked .... and ready to rock!"*


----------



## snapcon (Oct 11, 2005)

BEER4BAIT said:


> Golf? whats that? Snapcon may know LOL


GOLF - A game that former recreational snapper fisherman play when the government does EVERYTHING in their power to restrict, reduce, remove the ability of otherwise law abiding fisherman from engaging in a sport/pasttime that not only is helpful to the coastal economic communities, but is no where near the low levels that the Government paid hacks would have us believe.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*Ocean Conservancy*



Ernest said:


> Now, as far as the allegation of being a tree hugging enviro neo-con, the humor is already present in the very silly idea that one could be both a neo-con and an enviro extremist. Sure, that humor is lost on Tom, but that just makes it all the more funny.


Ernest - I witnessed you and MarkD in action with Chris Dorsett and david Dickson at the OC meeting a while back - ya'll were on board with their agenda.

No innuendo - just first-hand experience.

All the best,
Tom


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Tom, Another lie. You are truly on a roll. 

As you will recall, Mark D and I - along with you - showed up for the dinner hosted by Ocean Conserv. You did your typical act like a fool, make up garbage, embarass yourself routine. I had seen it before, but the other participants were clearly shocked by how far your head was buried up your backside. One even asked me if you were drunk. I was forced to admit to them that it was not the alcohol. Thats just how you act. 

I said nothing during the presentation and merely listened. After dinner, MarkD, you, and I all talked at your table, during which I suggested that Ocean Conserve had some common ground with rec. anglers and could be useful in advancing the concerns of the rec angler, just as many of those same people helped out on the Shell open loop LNG issue. At the same time, I acknowledged repeatedly that there were numerous areas in which their approach was contrary to the interests of the rec anglers. 

So, keep posting up your lies about me. You, I, MarkD, and all the other folks at that dinner know the truth. 

But, if this is your honest recollection of the events, then perhaps I was in error when I indicated to others that you were not drunk.


----------



## oldtrackster (Jul 20, 2007)

Going to go run get some popcorn before Tom gets back.

Question about the original thread (for the second time.) What will we gain by packing the house at Crystal Lake?


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*Ernest*

Howdy,

I don't lie Ernest.

I asked David Dickson at that meeting about the numerous oil platforms that were scheduled to be removed in the next few years. Since these platforms have become EFH, I asked him if it wouldn't be better to leave the rigs in place to provide habitat for the thousands of fish. He replied; "No Tom, our position is that they are not natural and should be removed". In other words, to heck with the fish - the "natural" environment is more important. You're right Ernest, that's real head-up-backside stuff.

Come to think of it, it seems that CCA and OC are on the same side of the snapper issue.

We need to all work together to solve this issue, especially since these type of well-funded organizations have their heads-up-backside agendas. It's a sad state of affairs.

All the best,

Tom


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

oldtrackster said:


> Going to go run get some popcorn before Tom gets back.
> 
> Question about the original thread (for the second time.) What will we gain by packing the house at Crystal Lake?


More than not showing at all, We should have every person that fishes offshore, makes boats, sells boats, repairs boats, owns a boat, sells bait, sells fuel to boaters, sells tackle, makes tackle,,,,,,ETC I will drive from Lufkin to be there and know some from Dallas coming.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

Maybe nothing will come of this but I wont sit and watch my fishing go to the comercial side.


----------



## snapcon (Oct 11, 2005)

Ernest and Tom....ya'll need to chill out! Both of you need to take your personal attacks to a gym and put on the gloves. Sell tickets with the proceeds going to fund a lawsuit against the NMFS. Otherwise its just the SOS!
Just my $.02


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*snapcon*

Snapcon,
I'm with ya. Nothin' like being called a liar and a drunk to rowl ya up. I'm done.
Tom


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Mont said:


> A town hall meeting concerning the current Red Snapper crisis in the Gulf of Mexico will be held at 6:30 PM on Friday, April 25th in Clear Lake. Congressman Nick Lampson will attend along with Dr. Roy Crabtree of the Gulf Council. Discussion of the recently shortened recreational season will be held along with a question and answer period. The meeting will be at the University of Houston, Clear Lake, 2700 Bay Area, at the Bayou Theater on the second floor of the Bayou Building. The meeting is being sponsored by the Recreational Fishing Alliance and state chairman, Jim Smarr. All anglers in this fishery are encourage to attend and voice their opinion on the current state of the fishery.


I sent the above in e-mails to Larry Boska, Tompkins and Pike.

If the wind lays I have a charter Saturday morning and needed to adjust the throttle cable on my starboard engine (idleing too fast, I guess I didn't get it right when I re-connected the engines last weekend), wash down tripped the breaker last weekend, something got sucked into the bait well pump plus load all the gear for the trip. I need to add some income if they make go to the IFQ!

If we get blown out I'll be there...maybe late but I'll be there.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

*Mr. Lampson Sponsored the Town Hall Meeting*

Guys everyone reads this Board. The Gulf Council,NMFS,TPWD and Congress. We need to be working on filling a 500 person event. We need everyone sign in and bring a statement for the record to leave with Congressman Lampson. We will make sure there is a signup sheet for the spillover crowd should there be one.

Congressman Lampson has to be able to understand this issue is a hot one. We can only show him with large attendance numbers. He has gone to great lenghts to get the largest venue he could find for the Town Hall Meeting.

Congressman Lampson is Sponsoring this Event make no mistake about it.
The RFA is helping make sure we have numbers there. I have to give credit where credit is due. Thanks Congressman for putting the Town Hall meeting together for Sportsmen to look at a very important issue facing the Gulf of Mexico and Texas.


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

The Galveston Daily News just called me back to confirm my letter. It's free advertising, so y'all up and down the coast do the same thing.


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

Ernest and Tom, the next post either one of you puts in this thread attacking each other will be your last one here.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Congressman Lampson Town Hall Meeting on Red Snapper with Guest Dr. Roy Crabtree South East Regional Director Of National Marine Fisheries Service.

April 25th Friday 6:30 pm to 9:00pm


University of Houston Clear Lake
2700 Bay Area Blvd.

Houston, TX 77058

Bayou Theater 

2nd Floor of the Bayou Building

Parking available in Lot D, located behind the Bayou Building


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

oldtrackster said:


> Question about the original thread (for the second time.) What will we gain by packing the house at Crystal Lake?


I want to apologize for answering your question with a question, but what have we got to lose if we just sit on our hands and do nothing? Maybe you would rather just do that and then complain afterward about what has happened, but there are many folks on here that are obviously not going to do that.


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

Guys, I removed the reference to RFA at Jim's request. Y'all please do the same if you use the post I made above. 

For those stating or thinking this is just another dog and pony show, consider this. 

Anything you don't try will certainly fail. 

I feel the same sense of uselessness sometimes at these AP and GC meetings, but I still take the time to attend and testify. To do otherwise is to blindly accept what we are being force fed, which I won't do. It's just like not voting. If you don't vote, you voted for the winner. Anyone that thinks what the NMFS is currently doing is right, then you don't need to attend or be heard. 

Otherwise, show up and get on the record opposing what is happening. As I stated before, I am going to come back from vacation in Sommerville where the scenery is a whole lot nicer than a bunch of fisherman to be at this. 

Please show up with me.


----------



## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

Mont said:


> Guys, I removed the reference to RFA at Jim's request. Y'all please do the same if you use the post I made above.
> 
> For those stating or thinking this is just another dog and pony show, consider this.
> 
> ...


Mont, are you talking about the second to the last sentence? I just sent to someone I came to know at the Citizen when we pulled the 11' alligator out of the water last year on the Clear Lake golf course. I will bird dog that when I get a response. I additionlly sent it to a good friend of mine that is a Lt. with TP&W which is probably not as critical. Just let me know.


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

the sentence referencing RFA as the sponsor should reference Mr. Lampson or be removed all together.

My bad.

Smarr, I sent a note to the paper asking them to delete that sentence. Hopefully, they can.


----------



## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

Went back and looked and it is in the second to the last sentence. I will make that revision when I hear from Charles.


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

Smarr told me Mr. Lampson is going to be sending out press releases too. Unfortunately, those usually wind up where the paper has room for them. Letters to the editor are always in the same place and are one of the first places I go to in the paper right after Joe Kent's fishing report.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Congressman Lampson's Office will be sending out an Official Press Release and or Meeting Notice. We should use theirs. It should be out soon as there are ethics 
guidlines that have to be followed for Town Hall Meetings or other Meetings sponsored by a Congressman.

I know we all want to be helpful but the rules are the rules.

We can get the word out but not say anyone is "Sponsoring" the meeting other than Congressman Lampson as this is his meeting. Current count of views is near 5000 so I would say the word is getting out.

Thanks to Mont and all that took time to look at this post.


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

The Galveston Daily News just emailed me back and this is what they are running and what I *personally* suggest others try and get in other venues.

==========

Congressman Nick Lampson will be having a town-hall meeting concerning the

current Red Snapper crisis in the Gulf of Mexico. The meeting will be at

6:30 p.m. April 25th at the University of Houston, Clear Lake, 2700 Bay Area

Blvd. in Clear Lake. The meeting will be in the Bayou Theater on the second

floor of the Bayou Building.

Congressman Lampson has invited Dr. Roy Crabtree of the National Marine

Fishery Service. Discussion of the recently shortened recreational season

will be held along with a question and answer period. All anglers in this

fishery are encouraged to attend and voice their opinion on the current

state of the fishery.

===========


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Mont that looks very good thanks.

Who would of thought ETHICS could ever be a problem in the red snapper fishery. LOL


----------



## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

I just heard back and he is going to get it into the Sports and Outdoors section for next weeks release...they just printed a couple of hours ago...better late than never.

Mont and Jim, I did take the second to the last sentence out referencing sponsorship altogether.

I will ask him about possibly showing up to the meeting for coverage...can't hurt.


----------



## Brewgod (May 21, 2004)

*Question*

For those of us who absolutely cannot get out of prior commitments, what can we do to help?


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

Brewgod and others, fax any written comments you want me to present to 281-332-9558 to the attention of Monty Weeks. You may also email them to 
business @ 2coolfishing.com (take out the spaces). Do not send any attachments with your email or my filters will snag them and the email.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

Brewgod if you can go ride with us


----------



## oldtrackster (Jul 20, 2007)

Mont said:


> Brewgod and others, fax any written comments you want me to present to 281-332-9558 to the attention of Monty Weeks. You may also email them to
> business @ 2coolfishing.com (take out the spaces). Do not send any attachments with your email or my filters will snag them and the email.


Any coaching advice on how to word this? How long it should be? What data to include and the like?


----------



## Capt. Carman (Jun 5, 2007)

*Town Hall Meeting..Information*

We are planning to attend but I wanted to see if anyone has a copy of the recent LSU GOM fishery resource study in which the findings refute most of the Crabtree/NMFS group data.

There was an article published in the Houston Chronicle approx. 1-month (on a Saturday) ago in which the results of their research showed a 30% over-fished Red Snapper situation instead of the NMFS 80%(?) number.

It would be extremely good to enter into the record if it hasn;t already been done. They used better studies (LSU actually do most of it on thier own) on and better actual data.

See you Friday,

CC


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*Lsu Article*



Capt. Carman said:


> We are planning to attend but I wanted to see if anyone has a copy of the recent LSU GOM fishery resource study in which the findings refute most of the Crabtree/NMFS group data.
> 
> There was an article published in the Houston Chronicle approx. 1-month (on a Saturday) ago in which the results of their research showed a 30% over-fished Red Snapper situation instead of the NMFS 80%(?) number.
> 
> ...


Here's the LSU article;
http://www.realtime-navigator.com/LSU_Snapper_Paper.pdf
All the best,
Tom


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

I think that is the wrong article, or perhaps, the conclusion stated above from the newpaper is in error.

The link is to Cowen article which includes (i) conclusions indicating the red snapper population did collapse under either the Worm or the proposed revised criterion, (ii) uses the 80% shrimp bycatch mortality figure, and (iii) contains this little gem - _"[h]owever, evidence that habitate limited the stock size (of red snapper) was absent or weak; habitate area added by all artificial structures combined represents less that (sic) 5% of available natural habitates." _

So, while a nice article attacking the Worm 10% approach, it does little or nothing to directly advance claims relating to the alleged abundance of red snapper or that snapper are habitate limited.

Cowen is available (or was available) on the Florida Outdoors site to talk one thru the conclusions, and he has previously made himself available via telephone to asnwer questions.

Here are some excerpts from his recent posts:

The recreational sector is not causing most of the problem, but they are more organized and vocal. The root of the problem is, and always has been, mostly attributable to high levels of bycatch of juveniles. Think about this like knobs on your stereo. Bycatch is the big knob, the directed fishery is the little knob. You can make big adjustments if you turn the big knob just a little bit, but to make the same adjustments with the little knob, you have to turn it much more. Bycatch is believed to remove somewhere between 70-80% of the pre-recruits prior to them taking up residence on structured habitat. A reduction in bycatch, particularly when it was first proposed back in the early 1990's, would have made things much easier on the directed fisheries. We know now that we don't have a technological solution to bycatch, the recovery of the red snapper stock is mandated by law, so we now are forced to twist the little knob like hell to make a difference. 
For the last 15 years, the Council has picked catch levels for the directed fishery from the low probability (>>50:50 chance of reaching goal) end of the allowable catch range, and these alternatives all were predicated upon a significant reduction in byctach mortality; each year that bycatch remained high, the less likely it became that 9.12 mp catch levels could be sustained. We saw this train wreck coming along way down the track. Because it was possible, albeit improbable, that recovery could occur, NMFS chose not to fight with the Council about this until the bycatch stuff had been fully resolved. In my opinion, the Council was gambling, and when we finally realized that a technological solution to bycatch was not possible for red snapper, the directed fishery (commercial and recreational) is being asked to pay the price for the Councils gamble.

I am familiar with the work about compensatory mortality, and this finding is not widely supported by the scientific community. *There is absolutely no evidence that habitat is limiting for small red snapper, as they are quite comfortable and do well on soft-bottom, unstructured habitats.*

I know exactly where I fit in, as I am in favor of protecting the resource against over exploitation. My conscience is clear. And I do believe that it is possible to fish sustainably, but I don't believe that overfishing is attributable only to the commercial sector--their is plenty of blame to go around.

have never said that the shrimp fishery is the only problem, but it is the biggest problem with respect to recovery in the long term. I did misspeak about the the percentage of recruits removed, and it is true that the best estimates are that 70-80% of F on juveniles (age-0 and age-1) is attributable to byctach, but this is just word game. F and/or removals of juveniles have in the past been way to high, and effort reductions are probably having a positive impact. I suspect this explains a lot of what fisherman are seeing---lots of small fish, and the high 1999 year class is still working its way through. However, if the industry did not resist using measures to reduce bycatch for as long as it did, we would not be in the pickle we are in now.

There is another very important issue here that I think this community should be aware of, and for now we will ignore the bycatch issue. There are two ways to regulate removals from a fishery, in short this distinction is called Constant F or Constant catch. Over the period of red snapper management, at least since I became involved in 1992, the Councils advisory panels and NMFS have suggested that the Council consider the constant F approach, but the Council has always chosen constant catch.

The difference between the two is this: The constant F approach sometimes requires an additional cut in quotas initially to establish a fishing mortality (F) rate that will rebuild the stock in the time required by law, but after a short period (maybe only a couple of years) the stock responds and begins to grow. Because we now could be managing for an F rate rather than a catch level, the expectation is that as the stock rebuilds, allowable catches increase proportionately with stock size; our management goal is to keep constant the percent removed rather than catch level.

Constant catch, however, requires less of a cut in catches in the beginning, but the average F needed to achieve rebuilding doesn't change. So the catch rates allowed early in the period are higher that can be justified according to the F required by the rebuilding schedule, with the expectation that catches in the future will stay constant during the entire period of rebuilding (thus the proportion removed becomes less and less until recovery; when then stock is recovered, catches go up, perhaps a lot). As such, the constant catch approach is more risky because the benefits of management are put off into the future. The advisory panels and NMFS recommended that the Council consider the constant F approach every time a significant reduction in catch was required for management, going as far back in time as when the quota was only 3 million lbs. If this approach had been adopted then, there is no telling how large the catches would be now.

But this issue, I think, has never really been explained to members of the directed fishery, and some things have happened over time that have further obscured this issue. Namely, the information about how long red snapper live has changed the rebuilding schedule, pushing it further and further into the future. *This allowed catch levels to increase through time, ultimately reaching 9.12 million lbs, not because the stock has grown appreciably, but because the time to rebuilding was delayed.*

Here is the problem with the constant catch approach, I think, from your perspective, although I don't claim to be speaking on your behalf. Maybe I should say that this would bother me. But here we go, every time the directed fishery has been reduced, the stock has responded accordingly and has begun to recover. At one point back a few years ago, stock biomass was estimated to have almost doubled. But because the Council decided not to move to constant F management, we have the same problem then as we have now. You guys were seeing more and more fish because the stock was rebuilding, but catches had to remain constant to account for high catches early, and folks were unhappy about it. I don't blame you. This has happened at least twice that I am aware of, not including now, and what bailed the Council out each time was improved knowledge of red snapper life history and changes in the rebuilding schedule. *The longer the rebuilding schedule, the higher that initial catches could be because the target was pushed farther and further into the future, making it ever more risky to take this approach.* I realized this when thinking about all of your comments, and it is no wonder why you guys think that the science was bad, because these things were occurring coincident in time. *I can't tell you how many times this exact problem was discussed in the panels and with NMFS---we all recognized that as the stock recovered, the Council would need to have the political will to hold catches constant in face of increasing pressure, owing to the fact that you guys would be seeing lots of fish around, but catches would not be allowed to go up.* I am not sure whether this issue, which is essentially a pay me now or pay me later conundrum, was ever presented to the AP, but if is wasn't it should have been. I do know that the Council was aware of this because I was frequently the person who had to summarize the stock assessment panel's deliberations before the Council. I always figured that the fishers would rather take the cuts up front, and benefit in the long run, but I don't know if this is true or not. Maybe someone who was a member of the AP at that time could weigh in on this. Nevertheless, this never had to play itself completely out because every time the issue really heated up, changes in the rebuilding schedule postponed the ultimate showdown, and catches increased. *However when this happened, the increased biomass that had been banked during the previous time period was removed each time before the fish reached their maximum reproductive potential. *

So here we are now, the most recent reductions in harvest are mostly due to failure to achieve bycatch reduction until recently, although recent reductions in effort are appearing to be helpful. There still is some concern, however, about whether a reduction in effort will actually translate into the needed reduction in bycatch because the shrimp fishery was (and maybe still is) overcapitalized, and there was enough fishing power in the fleet to catch the available shrimp a few times over. There currently appears to be enough effort to keep shrimp catches relatively unchanged.

At last word, the Council is now is planning to move from a Constant catch to a Constant F management approach on the heels of this most recent reduction in catches, but this will require that 5 million lbs catches be maintained for a few years. You guys will be seeing more and more fish around, and the heat will continue to go up. This time, however, I don't think that a change in rebuilding schedule will bail the Council out, so we shall see. The new SFA has changed the playing field. All of this information is part of the public record in the assessment documents and panel reports, but I doubt if anyone has ever taken the time to discuss the vagaries of this issue with you guys very well. For that I apologize, but it is clear to me that more communication among science, management, and users is necessary, despite SEDAR, which is intended to make the process more transparent. *The science, I think maybe better than you think, but it has been thrown under the bus, somewhat because of such failures in communication. *

(Emphasis mine) Now my words - I would respectfully suggest Cowen will be cited by Crabtree, as opposed as being a sword we can weild against the regulators. Further, the regulators know his work well, very well.


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

*E-Mails sent*

Today I sent this message out to the sports guys at Channel 2, 11, 13, 26, 39, and radio shows Am 610 Rich lord, 700 Dan Patrick, 740 Michael Berry, 950 Walton & Johnson, 93.7 Dean & Rog.

I hope this helps get the crowd out.

Of corse if the meeting included the 4 B's the parking lot at the campus would not be large enough for the crowd. 

*MB*

Hi,

Congressman Nick Lampson will be having a town-hall meeting concerning the

current Red Snapper crisis in the Gulf of Mexico. The meeting will be at

6:30 p.m. April 25th at the University of Houston, Clear Lake, 2700 Bay Area

Blvd. in Clear Lake. The meeting will be in the Bayou Theater on the second

floor of the Bayou Building.

Congressman Lampson has invited Dr. Roy Crabtree of the National Marine

Fishery Service. Discussion of the recently shortened recreational season

will be held along with a question and answer period. All anglers in this

fishery are encouraged to attend and voice their opinion on the current

state of the fishery.

We would love for you to talk about this on your show, and come to the meeting if you can.

Thank You,

Mark Bailey,

MB


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*snapper article*

Howdy,

The Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act is the federal law that governs U.S. marine fisheries management. *In 1996 Congress added new habitat conservation provisions to that act in recognition of the importance of fish habitat to productivity and sustainability of U.S. marine fisheries.*
Congress asserted in the Findings section of the Magnuson-Stevens Act: _*One of the greatest long-term threats to the viability of commercial and recreational fisheries is the continuing loss of marine, estuarine, and other aquatic habitats. Habitat considerations should receive increased attention for the conservation and management of fishery resources of the United States.*_

The re-named Magnuson-Stevens Act mandated identification of essential fish habitat for managed species. The act also requires measures to conserve and *enhance the habitat needed by fish to carry out their life cycles*. The Magnuson-Stevens Act requires cooperation among NOAA Fisheries Service, fishery management councils, fishing participants, federal and state agencies, and others in achieving EFH protection, conservation and enhancement.

Congress defined EFH as "those waters and substrate necessary to fish for spawning, breeding, feeding, or growth to maturity." The EFH guidelines further interpret the EFH definition as:

Waters include aquatic areas and their associated physical, chemical, and biological properties that are used by fish and may include aquatic areas historically used by fish where appropriate
substrate includes sediment, hard bottom, structures underlying the waters, and associated biological communities
necessary means the habitat required to support a sustainable fishery and the managed species' contribution to a healthy ecosystem
and "spawning, breeding, feeding, or growth to maturity" covers a species' full life cycle.
Here's a link to an extremely important peer-reviewed paper;

http://www.realtime-navigator.com/Szedlmayer_red_snapper_GCFI.doc

In my opinion, what is missing in the federal fishery managers radar screen is the acknowledge of the results of the efforts to provide habitat for the snapper. Sure, there has been increased fishing pressure, but at the same time there has also been a tremendous effort to enhance the snapper biomass across the northern Gulf with outstanding results. This needs to be included in the equation. Counting dead fish at the dock cannot possibly adequately address the number of snapper left in the water.

"Artificial habitats off coastal Alabama have enhanced red snapper stocks, based on the collective studies over more than 10 years showing 1) early recruitment to structured habitats, 2) high residence and affinity for structured habitats, 3) diet composition showing significant reef prey in combination with other prey types, 4) growth rates showing similar plots as previous estimates, and 5) a fishery independent survey of artificial habitats that suggested a better local stock condition compared to past estimates.

These model results suggested that red snapper populations off coastal Alabama may be in better condition compared to past assessments*. *Based on these fishery independent data red snapper stocks off coastal Alabama may be at stock levels needed for a sustainable fishery."

So, if you look at what Alabama has accomplished over the last few decades; *That 45 mile stretch of coastline has accounted for 40% of all recreationally-caught snapper in the ENTIRE Gulf of Mexico in the last few years, AND the habitat deployed there now provides stock levels that may support a SUSTAINABLE fishery.*

Think about that. I think the following graphic says it all - it only makes sense, in my opinion, to duplicate this model across the entire Gulf. The results would be incredible.

This is what I intend to ask Dr. Crabtree about next week. Instead of managing the back-side of the resource (bag limits, seasons, etc), why isn't the NMFS following what is mandated in the Magnuson;* The act also requires measures to conserve and enhance the habitat needed by fish to carry out their life cycles. *

What exactly have they done to comply?

All the best,
Tom Hilton


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Tom,

In 14 plus years I have seen very little proactive movement out of NMFS. Only restrictions. Reefing, Pushing for realistic management Data,Pushing for Law Enforcement and Accepting that the Gulf is producing twice if not three times the numbers of fish the computer thinks due to illegal fishing would change most of the baselines. If the Gulf is in fact producing what we think it is then the computer needs to know it. The yeild is much higher than NMFS thinks. We are not in an overfished status. Putting the big sows on the mud flats back into the model would also raise the MSY of the fishery to match what we believe is being taken and supported by the Gulf in Red Snapper

I get reports of IFQ boats unloading without being monitored by enforcement loaded onto Trucks. I am sure these were not applied to their IFQ allotments. The law enforcement has to be cranked up as that was a part of vms and a 365 day fishery for the commercials. In fairness some of the commercials have hit their quota and stopped fishing. It would be very easy for law enforcement to check the ones still fishing.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*snapper*

Howdy,
Smarr - you are right on.

Hey Mont - aren't there minutes to a meeting that details the fact that Texas and Florida WERE included in the TAC? Now, they are saying that they were not included, and as such, they need to reduce the season further. I was in Austin with you when one of the TPWD Coastal Fisheries leaders confirmed that.

Crabtree is going to have his reasoning prepared, with (I suppose) pie charts, etc. We need to be better prepared.

How can we get our ducks in a row to collect the data that best refutes what we know Crabtree will be presenting?

The figures about Florida snapper accounting for something like 50% of the total TAC (state water snapper about 53% of that number)...there needs to be a timeline of what the NMFS was saying when. I think that will show how they are twisting the figures to suit their agenda.

I will get to work on gathering this type of data in the next few days.

Tom


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

We need to direct the questions to National Marine Fisheries Service or The Service.
Dr. Crabtree has been saddled with supporting the plan as he works for NMFS. 
Roy is in the box because of the Enviro Lawsuit forcing the 2 year rebuilding plan.

Thank the participants of the lawsuit on bycatch for your 64 day season. 

I do understand the numbers are rotten and a moving target as far as the model.
NMFS has an agenda forced by the idiotic lawsuit so Dr. Crabtree is locked into a 2 year plan. We have to get the Flexibility Bill passed and MSY changed by including the missing in action sow snapper. Dr. Crabtree has been remiss in pushing for studies on the sows that would end overfishing we believe.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*nmfs meeting*

Smarr,
I guess what I am getting at is this;

What specifically should our stated goals to be achieved by attending this meeting?

I've been thru all of the feel-good complaining about this and that - WHAT specifically can we best hope to achieve, and HOW can we best achieve it?

Mont?

I'd like to have a game plan going in. If we need to continue this via PM's, then I understand.

Thanks in advance,

Tom


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Ask your question. Members of Congress will listen if the question is directed at the Agency more so than one individual. As much as we would like to blame one man
it is much bigger than Dr. Roy Crabtree. NMFS did not defend the Shrimp bycatch lawsuit locking us into a 2 year plan. NMFS knew the number was between 16% and 26% but rolled over and let the Enviros win. Pressure from the TOP has always been the problem at the White House level to push the agenda of people that want For Hire dead and gone.

I am not saying to go easy at all be direct and to the point with your statement at the Town Hall Meeting.

MEETING LOCATION:
University of Houston Clear Lake

2700 Bay Area Blvd.

Houston, TX 77058

Bayou Theater 

2nd Floor of the Bayou Building

Parking available in Lot D, located behind the Bayou Building


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

*Article written on current problems*

TIME FOR A WAKE - UP CALL*.*​​​Recreational anglers and hunters are being attacked on all fronts. Our fisheries managers are being bombarded by the "environmental" communities at every turn. The environmental lobby is well organized, financed, and very loud. The facts are that they attend all management meetings, as they have paid staff to do so. They have a huge email data base to access when they need to be heard. They know how and when to use that list.



Recreational fishermen and hunters have grown accustomed to sending in their membership dues to their favorite hunting and fishing groups to voice their opinion from the comfort of their recliner chairs. 



The time has come for us to be HEARD - LOUD and CLEAR.We must have a significant presence at the various regulatory meetings and hearings to voice our concerns. We have to stand up and be counted at these meetings. If we sit on the sidelines expecting others to speak for us we will not be heard. 



Most organizations would like to believe individual legislators listen to them. The truth is that most of the other organizations being 501(c) 3's, are limited by I.R.S. Code as to how much money they can devote to true lobbying efforts. 



Being a 501(c) 4, we at the Recreational Fishing Alliance are allowed to lobby heavily with funds raised. We can hold fundraisers for, and endorse candidates for elected office at all levels. We are flexing our muscles in the political arena and are being heard due to our ability to lobby, but we need your help. Information regarding the various issues and how YOU can help, is available on our website www.rfatexas.org There you will find scheduled dates of meetings and hearings, and information regarding public comment so YOU can stand up and have your voice heard. This information is available to everyone, RFA members and non- members alike.



A massive lobbying effort however is simply not enough. We must also engage the recreational sporting community in a grass roots movement to individually attend meetings and to contact their elected representatives to voice their concerns. Politicians listen to people in their home districts because they want to be re-elected. Thus political strength is in a true grass roots movement at the local level. 



We offer this advice to all sportsmen. Please get plugged into the political process. We know most of you have an opinion to offer when your rights are being challenged. If you cannot attend a meeting, simply type out a written comment. Designate a friend who CAN attend, to simply state they would like to enter a statement for the record on your behalf. If you are not comfortable speaking in public simply sign in at the meeting and ask to speak. When your name is called just ask for your prepared statement to be entered into the record and yield your time to a fellow sportsman. Being in attendance is not enough to be counted. You have to go on the record. A written statement is most effective as it cannot be can not be paraphrased or watered down to serve the specific interests of our regulatory agencies. 



Attending one public hearing will not be enough. The regulatory agencies put on their Kevlar underwear knowing that most folks will vent their feelings at the first meeting then disappear. Then it is business as usual. They simply hold meetings until they wear down the opposition. The enviros then take over as they attend all meetings. The agency folks then come to a "consensus" with those attending the final meeting. We pay the salaries of these agency folks, so they don't mind holding meetings until they get the consensus that suits their agenda. The enviros know most folks are not going to attend more than one meeting so they wear us down as a user group then get what they want - us off the water or out of the woods unless we attend all the meetings including the last one where the consensus will be "REACHED" of those in Attendance. 



Another important fact is that when you go on the record you get counted. Meetings being held at different locations bring another issue to mind as the radicals will attend all meetings as a traveling road show to stack the numbers in support of their cause. Most of these men are shameless in voting early and often. The deck can easily be stacked due to this very effective tactic. We have seen this tactic used recently by a small group to make their numbers appear

much larger than they really were. Agencies shamelessly look the other way and allow the same folks to vote again and again. We just have make sure we do the same so we are not out gunned so to speak.



The statements for the record are vital. This process is called building a record. If legal action is required to stop an egregious or draconian measure, the record is there for the world to see that not everyone approved of the proposed rule or law. The "environmentalists" have mastered this type of action. If you read the record on a hot Texas issue you will find people on the side of these "enviros" from major cities all over the country have mysteriously weighed in with a public comment. What does a little old lady from New York, Los Angles, or Chicago know about hunting or fishing in Texas? Nothing, they simply mindlessly parrot the viewpoint of those organizations.



If we don't wake up and take effective action soon, we are we are going to be relegated to fishing in our bathtubs. One has only to look at red snapper in our own backyard as a prime example. We are now limited to a 120 now 64 day season, with a two fish limit in federal waters in the Gulf of Mexico. If our fisheries managers and the enviros have their way we could be looking at a zero bag limit in the near future. We are now in the position of having a Federal Judge ruling on the issue using the faulty data and computer models wrongly depicting the fishery as nearing collapse. The result of this lawsuit could be a total shutdown of our Red Snapper Fishery in 2009. 



For many years a misconception has been drilled in our heads that shrimpers killed 80 percent of the juvenile red snapper. A lawsuit filed by the enviros touted this number in Federal Court. Guess what? The TRUE number was in reality only 26% according to most recent National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) numbers. The true 26% number was known to all parties prior to the final hearings, but the data was not changed, and it remained at the grossly inflated 80%. NMFS also uses inflated bycatch mortality numbers in their model. To make matters worse, after federal regulations forced the commercial long line red snapper fishermen to move further offshore beyond the 50 fathom curve, the NMFS was alarmed by the sudden decrease in mature brood stock class red snapper being brought to the docks. They seem unable to comprehend that the change was caused by the fact that those larger fish are most abundant in the breeding grounds closer to shore where the commercial boats were suddenly no longer allowed to fish, and that the recreational sector seldom targets those fish because they are scattered on the featureless mud flats. This makes them too difficult to locate and catch by the rod and reel recreational fishermen. Since those fish were no longer being landed by the commercial sector with their 20 mile long lines, the NMFS immediately cut Recreational limits declaring an alleged "Brood Stock Crisis". These factors caused the model to falsely reflect a lower number of mature age class fish and an overall lower stock of the entire red snapper population.



The fish are still there we are just not catching them. The fish simply disappeared from the stock assessment computer model when the long liners were moved to fifty fathom curve. Dr. Bob Shipp has worked on Red Snapper most of his life. Dr. Shipp understands the big breeders are still there. Dr. Shipp testified before Congress along with James A. Donofrio from the Recreational Fishing Alliance December the 5th 2007 relaying the many short falls of current fisheries management policies. Inflated shrimp by catch mortality, not counting fish on artificial structure, and the large breeders missing from the stock assessments were three key issues in testimony. We have asked Congress to re visit the Magnusson Act to remove the very restrictive plan in place for red snapper along with a grouper species in the Gulf of Mexico. Dr. Shipp from Alabama testified that NMFS does not count fish populations over artificial structure. The Oil and Gas Platforms alone hold more zero to two year old fish than NMFS has in the stock assessment for the entire Gulf of Mexico! This paired with the fact that the breeding sow red Snapper mysteriously disappeared from the stock assessments have placed us where we are today with a two fish bag limit and a ever shortening season.



The red snapper issue is just one example of our fisheries managers not being held accountable by recreational user groups to revisit their data sets in their model. It is unbelievable to see our sport being torn apart with myths, faulty data, half truths. More than eighty percent of all offshore trips taken are on a for - hire vessel. We are very close to losing this infrastructure. The next time you decide to go fishing there may not be anyone to take you. Businesses are closing all over the Gulf of Mexico. We as fishermen need to get out of that recliner and be heard or face losing our sport forever. For the past twelve years I have served as a non - compensated Texas State Chairman of The Recreational Fishing Alliance and have been attending meetings and going on the record for my fellow sportsmen and sportswomen. The RFA is leading the charge to fix Magnuson in Congress so that the law has the flexibility it needs to give us more red snapper for recreational anglers. I ask that you now step up to the plate and help us hit one out of the park for the home team before the lights dim for the last time.



Here are a few items that need to be on your radar screen:



A. Texas Parks and Wildlife is being pressured to follow federal regulations in state waters if those federal regulations are more restrictive. What would this bring since redfish are a no take species in federal waters? This would cut state water red snapper from four fish to two fish or maybe no fish in 2009. Public comment on this issue should be forthcoming shortly. 



B. The Flower Gardens Banks is in danger of being off limits to recreational fishing. We are not being heard on this issue. It seems that one dive shop in Louisiana and the enviros started this move. 



C. NMFS is currently considering even more restrictive red snapper limits.



D. Efforts to bring the "Texas Great Barrier Reef" to reality have been scrutinized by regulatory agencies to the tenth degree. Texas needs offshore habitat. Alabama

catches 42% of the Red Snapper in the Gulf of Mexico due to their twenty year reefing plan. Texas needs to catch up.



E. Governor John Connolly invoked the first Texas Fishing License to be used to fund the maintenance of our natural fish passes. Most are currently closed. Our bays are not what they used to be due to poor water exchange. We need to demand that the original intent be followed.



F. Find out who represents you in Congress and the Texas Legislature. Make sure they understand your feelings on sporting issues. Register and VOTE in every election. We have to get involved at all levels to regain our place in the regulatory process.



I hope my overview has been a wake up call to everyone involved in the recreational angling community. Can we allow the tofu eating enviros to wreck our sport without a fight?





Jim Smarr

Chairman

Recreational Fishing Alliance

361-463-1558

[email protected]


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*snapper*

OK,
I guess the first thing is to pack the room with bodies. This worked well with the TPWD scoping meetings, but you have to realize that TPWD has a realistic approach to the fisheries...it would seem that the NMFS does not. In any case, it could make an impression on our Congressional leader if he saw a substantial turnout of fishermen (voters). Everyone needs to make sure they are in attendance, even if you do not plan to speak (even you Ernest). In addition, each person needs to bring someone from the fishing and boating industry with them; marinas, boat dealers, fishing tackle stores, etc.

Secondly, I would hope there was an end result that we could speak about that would satisfy our anger with this issue; I would suggest that the best thing to ask for is more flexibility in the Magnuson. The arbitrary timeline is too restrictive, and will cause undue economic hardship. What does more flexibility mean? Longer season? Yes. Higher limits? Maybe.

In any case, I would like to see a focused, well-orchestrated effort to achieve the desired end result - I'm just not sure how to best do that.

All the best,
Tom Hilton


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Thanks for the invite. Actually, I will be fishing down South. 

I hear tell they have a bunch of these skinny, pointy nosed fish down that way. From what I am taken to understand, apparently, these fish don't eat worth a darn. 

Last time I was down there, I kept telling them - Hey Zeus, drag it over the transom, I will club it to death. But I don't speak the language, so Hey Zeus just kept cutting them loose. Looked like they would eat fine to me though. Nice long fillets.


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Tom,

I have spoke with Boska about the meeting and he was saying everyone should stay away from from comments like..."I catch big snapper every trip!". He said what we need to do is concentrate on facts they have published to be facts. Even though the comment may very well be true, in their eye's it carrys about the same weight as telling them most of us have seen UFO's dropping millions of 20lb red snapper out of their space ships.

I was thinking maybe everyone should bring photos like the one Snap Draggin posted showing guys holding up snapper...include dates and contact info on the back...

Like the 217 Charter boats catching 41% of the TAC from Texas in 2006...ask him to prove those numbers! Get him to admit to the 26% by-catch not 80% that has the envro's are using. Press him to support his numbers with facts...who and where they came from and when.

I still can't get an answer to the question about date of the historical poupulation they are trying to get the stock back to. I have been in contact with James Cowan and he has yet to give up that info. I feel this is very important, because if they are looking to restore stock number to say the mid 50's we may already have pasted those numbers and be on the plus side!

OMT- I feel we need is plan to get an accurate count of the numbers of snapper we are taking. I have an idea that I was going to start a new thread with.

How about:
www.my-redsnapper-TX.com

I just moved my web site to a location where I can host up to 50 different sites along with my own. We can aslo have one site for each state.

If TP&W would pass a law requiring every boat that intends to catch red snapper have a FREE boat permit when they get their saltwater stamp and report that catch to the above site. It would be just like the FREE Sandhill Crane stamp we can now get....you then register on the above site into an Excel type program for you TX numbers...it should be broken down into;date of report, number of anglers, water depth (no since worrying about state/fed water depth will tell you that)...15" to 18"...18" to 20"...20" to 25"...25" to 30" and over 30".

I can and will provide the server space if I have enough room and will pay for the domain names (all 5 states) to be registered too. I am by no means a computer geek, but am willing to help design a Excel program that would do what is needed.

I have many ideas on how to set this up, but that is the short view.

Getting some accurate numbers into the "bootstrapping" as the call the results of their models, it would have to help a ton.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Great Post Captn. C

Congressman Lampson is pleased with the response here. We need to fill the room and the grounds so he understands Texas is not happy. This is a must do meeting. Make sure to get your friends there.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I will not be asking a question. I will be making a statement regarding NMFS.. 

Charlie


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

There's more than one of use that's going to make a statement on the record, Charlie. 

For those that plan to, please consider putting your comments in writing, formally, and submitting them at the beginning of the meeting. Normally, you have to sign in to be able to speak publicly, but can submit written comments prior to the meeting. Bring 20 or 30 copies if you can. Ask that your comment be submitted to the full Gulf Council and any applicable Advisory Panels. Feel free to specifically ask they be submitted to the Red Snapper Advisory Panel of the Gulf Council.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

*Town Hall Meeting*

Guys and Gals

This venue is for you to tell your Member Of Congress Nick Lampson how you feel about the Red Snapper issue. If you catch big fish tell them you do. This meeting is your Town Hall Meeting sponsored by your Congressman. He needs the truth.

I put a call into Mr. Bozka but did not get an answer. Never hold back when telling your elected official how you feel an issue should be handled that directly affects you. The facts are the facts let the Congressman figure out how to deal with them to best correct the situation at hand for the folks in the Home District.

Claims that there are no big fish out there have us with a sixty day season and is going along with the Enviro's that say we are at 3% of historical biomass. Sorry Mr. Bozka just does not understand the situation we are dealing with. In all fairness to Larry not many folks do as they are not involved on a day to day basis.


----------



## freespool (Oct 1, 2005)

As this is related to both the sport I love passionately and my lively hood as a the owner of a marine diesel repair service that primarily works on recreational vessels you can bet I am going to be there and probably bring a few of my hands as well. 

I will try to put together a statement as to my experiance in the gulf and the impact the rule changes are having on not only my livelyhood but that of the people from Illinoise and Ohio that make the engines and their parts that are not being used near as much now.

I believe the first five idea would be a good solution. Those big sows taste like wet carpet anyway.


----------



## Angler 1 (Apr 27, 2005)

Freespool,

You hit the nail on the head. If everyone in the buisness brings a statement of how they have been effected by the new shorten season, and how it has impacted there livelyhood there is a chance that something could be done for this season.

I realize there is much more to it than this and it will take time to unfold, the fact is we need relief *RIGHT NOW. *I will have several statements with me from local coastal businesses that are also effected by this sad mess. I would like to see 100's of statements turned in for the record. Jim has said it for along time no matter what, you have to keep going and keep fighting the fight. 

"The Best Avaliable Data" says there is a Economic Impact on the Coastal Communties, and we have statements from business to back it up.



freespool said:


> As this is related to both the sport I love passionately and my lively hood as a the owner of a marine diesel repair service that primarily works on recreational vessels you can bet I am going to be there and probably bring a few of my hands as well.
> 
> I will try to put together a statement as to my experiance in the gulf and the impact the rule changes are having on not only my livelyhood but that of the people from Illinoise and Ohio that make the engines and their parts that are not being used near as much now.
> 
> I believe the first five idea would be a good solution. Those big sows taste like wet carpet anyway.


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

the private recs need to bring statements of how there will be reduced trips as a result of the shortened season along with how much it actually costs to run a trip this year. At $1500 a pop (that's just for my trip expenses) running 1/3 to 1/2 our normal trips is a huge number when you look at all of Texas. The guys running larger/thirstier boats will have a bigger number. 

I think we all need to get some kewl new shades too.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*snapper*

Howdy,
I would like to get statements from Capt Elliott (WAS the largest headboat operation in Texas) and Capt Hardison (WAS the largest headboat operation in Louisiana. BOTH of these businessmen folded up shop directly citing NMFS failures to manage the fishery, along with the onerous regulations.

These 2 operations shutting down has removed access to the fishery to tens of thousands of fishermen, and they should have hard financial data to back that up.

Tom


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Angler 1 said:


> Freespool,
> 
> You hit the nail on the head. If everyone in the buisness brings a statement of how they have been effected by the new shorten season, and how it has impacted there livelyhood there is a chance that something could be done for this season.
> 
> ...


I sent you the e-mail we talked about yesterday. If you don't get I may have your e-maill worng let me know if don't get it.


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

OMT-I'd be careful about trying to get the length limit increased...once you give something up it is hard to get it back. I can't see them giving anything back once they have it.


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

hilton said:


> Howdy,
> I would like to get statements from Capt Elliott (WAS the largest headboat operation in Texas) and Capt Hardison (WAS the largest headboat operation in Louisiana. BOTH of these businessmen folded up shop directly citing NMFS failures to manage the fishery, along with the onerous regulations.
> 
> *These 2 operations shutting down has removed access to the fishery to tens of thousands of fishermen*, and they should have hard financial data to back that up.
> ...


That also means there will not be Snapper limits Caught by these tens of thousands of fisherman which means more fish for ????.....Rec's or Comm.????

*MB *


----------



## rodwade (Feb 13, 2007)

Neither...that is part of their plan. I'm wondering where $4.50 diesel factored into their equation?


----------



## oldtrackster (Jul 20, 2007)

Captn C said:


> OMT-I'd be careful about trying to get the length limit increased...once you give something up it is hard to get it back. I can't see them giving anything back once they have it.


Wittness the red drum. An abundant fish in all gulf state waters with allowable daily limits. These fish were brought back from a legitimate overfishing situation. The take of these fish are still not allowed in federal waters. Nothing is given back, as the enviro groups never plan to.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

We are 3 days out on this meeting. We need to make sure we stay focused on attending
the Town Hall Meeting. Please act like you are going to use the HOV Lane. No single occupancy cars or trucks inbound to the meeting. Please fill them with friends willing to push for a fair an equitable Red Snapper Fishery.


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

2 more thing i'd like see :

1. Ask why is it they avoid the age issue with snapper. IMO once a snapper reaches 30" it doesn't matter how old it is, it should be prodcuing maximun output. You know an 18" snapper that is 50YO can't hold a candle to a 30" 2YO...I think they are using this as a smoke and mirror issue to help keep thing cloudy for us.

2. Has anyone contacted the guy running against Lampson? You always get better results with a with a little competition. Also whoever wins the election will be in the know on the issue!


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Actually, I spoke with his staff last week. Real nice folks.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Capn C

Info I have is this a 14 inch snapper produces about 750 thousand eggs, a 22 inch produces about 7 million , a 28 produces about 10 million, a 36 about 100 million. It appears that the egg production increases until they reach about 30 years old and continue about the same for the remainder of their years which could be over 50 years old.

Charlie


----------



## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

I guess I'll have to go, too. There needs to be at least one good looking person in the room.... and see, Monte, I spelled all my words gooder than Jim.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Bobby Miller


I lost my first and only spelling bee. I just fiqured out Mont was looking over my shoulder. Now I will never know what the problem was. LOL

Thanks Mont I need all the help I can get.


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

CHARLIE said:


> Capn C
> 
> Info I have is this a 14 inch snapper produces about 750 thousand eggs, a 22 inch produces about 7 million , a 28 produces about 10 million, a 36 about 100 million. It appears that the egg production increases until they reach about 30 years old and continue about the same for the remainder of their years which could be over 50 years old.
> 
> Charlie


Charlie,
Does it have anything on their age for those lengths? That is something else they won't tell ya.

Thanks


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Ernest said:


> Actually, I spoke with his staff last week. Real nice folks.


Are they coming?


----------



## wacker (Mar 22, 2006)

CHARLIE said:


> Capn C
> 
> Info I have is this a 14 inch snapper produces about 750 thousand eggs, a 22 inch produces about 7 million , a 28 produces about 10 million, a 36 about 100 million. It appears that the egg production increases until they reach about 30 years old and continue about the same for the remainder of their years which could be over 50 years old.
> 
> Charlie


Charlie,

Don't ya think this sow snap #of eggs thing is being over stated regaurding there impact as being a indicator of a healthy fishery? A 36" snap is and always will be a rare bird so forget a 100mill eggs besides the fact that a 36"er would eat about 4000lb of juvies in its life span and burn up a whole lot of habitat, 12 14" snaps lay as much as a 28" fish so all these juvies we see should be a no brainer that the fishery is in deed on the rebound and can sustain the current fishing pressure. You give these fish some reefing or structure and make the comms lay off these 14"ers and it's all over. And yes I know the larger fish are still out there but it seams that if NMFS doesn't want to recognize the good they did by pushing the comms to 50 fathoms. if they changed the way the fishery is being used than in turn they need to change their data if they are only going to count dead fish. funny how they say the swords are fully recovered as a hole but their size is nowere near what it used to be.

I am planning on attending the meeting but I have no clue what to say about the whole isssue, It's like wiping your a** with a wagon wheel, same s*** everytime ya turn it around.


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

wacker,
I tried to make the same argument with the Speckled Trout and the the biologist wouldn't except that type data. Thye still pushed for the one over 25" rule, which I feel was mostly worthless. There are so few days when you could have strung more than one any way...it just like limiting bay fishermen to to only string one Blue Whale per trip, it's just not going to happen very often.

But I do agree, even though the life span of Red Snapper is longer than most fish. They do spawn at an early enough age that they are still contributing to the stock. The biologist just don't get it that millions of 20" can add a bunch of babies just as a hundred or so 30"+ big girls.


----------



## enielsen (Dec 27, 2004)

*Snapper caught at the jetties*

From the fishing reports forum. A good size red snapper was caught at the north jetty yesterday. 2cool.
http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=160055


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Wacker

I will never be able to understand the "Logic" that NMFS uses. Certainly you re correct regarding the 12 14 inchers. I would just like to stop the targeting of the big sows by everyone. Like take them out of the tournaments etc. Regarding the 50 fathom rule that was pushed by Prof. gary Graham and it worked and actually showed results after a few years. Nowdays with no enforcement the longliners have been coming back inside 50 fathoms. Boats have been seen numerous times and reported but to no avail. These fish were unloaded at a Texas dock and a 50 pounder was seen along with many other sows it was so old it was almost deformed. The boat went rite back to the same general area and continued to fish no problem. No law enforcement agency fed or State would do anything. 

As you know with no enforcement you can write all the laws you want but no enforcement its a waste of time. Dont forget we are all together on this issue someday maybe someone will listen. There must be some accountability with NMFS some day I hope..

Charlie


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Capn C

The info I have shows that a Snapper begans to produce a very few eggs at about age 3 and then goes up a very steep curve to about 20 years of age and then kinda goes flat line from there. 

Charlie


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

I have been curious how old the "average" 28" to 30" snapper was.

From the few tagged snapper returns I've had they seem to grow almost an inch a month during the summer months and I'm sure their growth rate slows down as they get older...the biologist don't seem to want to take on the inch=age issue. Not even an average...


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

ftp://ftp.gulfcouncil.org/ is full of great information, and it is where I have been making the screenshots from.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I thought this was interesting reading

From a management perspective, our findings suggest that recovery of red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico may require different strateies in different areas. Assuming there is a single population of snapper in the Gulf, recovery of the eastern gulf snapper to former levels of abundance would appear to be a formidable task, while maintaining "status quo" for western gulf snapper may require less stringent regulatory actions. It may be necessary to develop separate status of stocks estimates for eastern and western Gulf snapper even if they are not distinct stocks, and develop models to determine what must be done to rebuild stocks in the eastern Gulf and maintain or increase current stock levels in the western Gulf.

This came from a study done by Karen Mitchell Natl marine Fisheries Service, Southeast fisheries Science Center, Mississippi labs, and Pascagoula Miss 
Panama City, Fla I think it was done in 2001


Charlie


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*snapper*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Ernest*
_Actually, I spoke with his staff last week. Real nice folks._



Captn C said:


> Are they coming?


I doubt it since Olsen's opponent (Lampson) is sponsoring the meeting. I also doubt that reps from CCA or Ocean Conservancy will be in attendance either, since they don't even see the need for the meeting (they are in step with the feds on the snapper issue).

Regardless, should be an interesting evening!

Tom Hilton


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

CHARLIE said:


> I thought this was interesting reading
> 
> From a management perspective, our findings suggest that recovery of red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico may require different strateies in different areas. Assuming there is a single population of snapper in the Gulf, recovery of the eastern *gulf snapper to former levels of abundance* would appear to be a formidable task, while maintaining "status quo" for western gulf snapper may require less stringent regulatory actions. It may be necessary to develop separate status of stocks estimates for eastern and western Gulf snapper even if they are not distinct stocks, and develop models to determine what must be done to rebuild stocks in the eastern Gulf and maintain or increase current stock levels in the western Gulf.
> 
> ...


Charlie,
Get one of them to tell you what year they are refering to!

So far not one of them can tell me!

This is another prefect question for Crabtree...and not take any wishy-washy answer as he beats around that bush!


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Maybe when Christoher Columbus showed up huh ?? Heck in Florida when ole Columbus showed up there was no snapper only sea bass, Grouper and yellowtail best I recall 

Charlie


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

hilton said:


> I also doubt that reps from CCA or Ocean Conservancy will be in attendance either, since they don't even see the need for the meeting (they are in step with the feds on the snapper issue).


Wouldn't it be great if we could get the season changed regardless of CCA or the enviros?


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Proving we have sow snapper on the mud flats would raise the MSY to a point of removing the current overfished status on red snapper. We belive the fish are there if the study was done for the entire range of mudflats inside of the 50 fathom curve. Roy has been very slow to finish the studies. Industry has agreed to pay for the studies and provide observers. We have to have the data off the mud flats inside the 50 fathom curve.

RFA will push this until it happens.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

CHARLIE said:


> Maybe when Christoher Columbus showed up huh ?? Heck in Florida when ole Columbus showed up there was no snapper only sea bass, Grouper and yellowtail best I recall
> 
> Charlie


Charlie,
Do you recall meeting Mr. Columbus? lol
Tom


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Yes Tom I think so. But all his friends we just called him Chris.

Charlie


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

*The Migration has started towards Clear Lake*

There will be people from Corpus Christi, Port Aransas, Rockport, San Antonio,
Orange , Beaumont, Niderland, Port O'Connor, South Padre Island, Lufkin and Austin headed into Clearlake for the Town Hall Meeting Congressman Lampson has blessed us with. We should be there an hour early to get signed in and 
have everyone ready to go at meeting time. I understand Congressman Lampson
has two or three other Town Hall Meetings Friday before ours. I am sure he will be worn out. At least he is staying in touch with his District. Very few Members 
of Congress spend the time to get down to the grass roots level to understand 
their Districts problems.

Please post up your town if I missed it. I would like to know how many are headed in from out of town.


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

jim smarr said:


> At least he is staying in touch with his District. Very few Members of Congress spend the time to get down to the grass roots level to understand their Districts problems.


I wish Ted Poe was in touch with us over here like that. I believe he thinks he has enough support from the CCA bunch that is against all what we are trying to do. I wish EVERYONE in Ted Poe's district that reads this would call him and let him know how we feel about all this. I know they know my name over there VERY WELL.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Everyone be shure to bring at least a couple buddies with you. We need numbers..

Charlie


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

All the Boat manufactures reps. will be at the International boat show in CC this weekend. 

It would be nice to have your presence at this meeting . I know it's a 5 Hr. drive ( both ways ) and not at a convenient time, but the out come could cost you guys a lot of sales.


We hope some of you can make it.

MB


----------



## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

Chuck Hlava, the Sports Editor for the local Citizen, made a nice space for the announcement about tomorows meeting.


----------



## HonkyFin (May 28, 2004)

I'll be out back with the black van , Engine running.
So when ya'll are done with Crabtree, we can then "borrow" him for a few hours, then slam some Scuba gear down on him and head offshore to the nearest oil rig and dump him overboard with a couple of our "Assistants" and show him how many Snaps reside off the legs of these rigs.
Ya'll come help ,,I got a few extra black ski-masks !!!


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

*A Great Texan Will Be First To Speak during Public Comment Section*

Congressman Lampson will open the meeting followed by Dr. Crabtree with brief remarks of ten minutes each.

There will then be a very special Guest Speak to open up the Public Comment 
Session. Don't miss his remarks. His remarks will make you proud to be a Texan.

We look forward to seeing everyone there.


----------



## Capt. Carman (Jun 5, 2007)

*Cities Coming*

Jim,

Magnolia, Coldspring are coming tomorrow.

CC


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Thanks for posting up. Load the Bus to the limit.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Will be there early for the meeting. Should be there by 5:30.


----------



## Angler 1 (Apr 27, 2005)

http://politicalblog.abc13.com/

Here you go..


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

jim smarr said:


> Will be there early for the meeting. Should be there by 5:30.


Cant make it Jim I have been working till midnight with 2 men down here. The big guy should be there though, tell us how it goes.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jim

Please save me a seat I am gonna watch the Chan 13 5 PM news and then head that way. If there is a sign up to speak can you sign in for me.? 

Charlie


----------



## Angler 1 (Apr 27, 2005)

Charlie,

Set your DVR...and come get a good parking space


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Eugene

You know I could do that. You got any room ?

Charlie


----------



## Angler 1 (Apr 27, 2005)

Charlie, I will save you a chair if you need me to.


----------



## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I am getting ready to leave here tiki in about 5 minutes.

Charlie


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

I just got back from Somerville and out of the shower. It's game time men.


----------



## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

I hope there is a packed house. I can't make it because today is our 10 year anniversary. Good luck in getting some answers out of Crabtree.


----------



## Primer (Jan 12, 2008)

Haute Pursuit said:


> I hope there is a packed house. I can't make it because today is our 10 year anniversary. Good luck in getting some answers out of Crabtree.


Sadly there wasnt a packed house... Crabtree basiclly said the same thing over and over again.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Thanks to all that attended. We had about 120 or so. 

Congressman Lampson asked me to put together an Advisory Panel to work up a list of issues we have. He would like focused input on the Red Sapper issue. We can get this panel set up quickly.

Dr. Crabtree has been asked to come to Port Aransas in the near future. I believe we can fill up UT Marine Science Center as we did for the State Regs meeting. 

We will not get any help out of NMFS solving the problems. We have started the dialog to remove the 80 Commercial Boats off the Water. This will be the only solution.


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

> We have started the dialog
> to remove the 80 Commercial Boats off the Water.


I have some experience in that arena, Jim. Let me know if I can help. I am sorry I couldn't stay any longer tonight. I am going back on my vacation until Monday. Call me at the office and let's talk. I have a piece of paper that will be very helpful in this mission.


----------



## freespool (Oct 1, 2005)

Bit of a let down. He kept repeating the same info again and again. Seems to have no concern about the fishermen, only what the court and some poorly thought out rules mandates.
Did enjoy Commisioner Parker's views from TP&W


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

*pic's from the meeting*

Here are some pics from the meeting.

*MB*


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

Here's a a few more....

*MB*


----------



## Angler 1 (Apr 27, 2005)

Great Dog & Pony show.....Basically he says his hands are tied and it is the LAW for him to end overfishing and all he is doing is enforcing it. Only thing missing besides more people was the *SMOKE & MIRRORS.*


----------



## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

That sure is a good looking guy in the orrange shirt in the first and fifth photos.


The floating numbers for the bio-stock is a big concern to me. I think that one thing is what might be hurting our effort.


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

Captn C said:


> *That sure is a good looking guy in the orrange shirt in the first and fifth photos.*
> 
> The floating numbers for the bio-stock is a big concern to me. I think that one thing is what might be hurting our effort.


For those not in attendance the orange shirt guy was asking some great questions, some of which we are still waiting answers to......

I'll hold my breath...........NOT

*MB*


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

I for one am very disappointed in the turn out. I drove over there from Nederland. Nick Lampson does not even represent my district. I would have thought that a district with a population like Harris County has could have easily packed the auditorium. Sadly that was not the case. I must admit that the auditorium was hard to find; however if two ******** from Jefferson County could find it I would figure that folks from that area could have as well.


----------



## BigBird737 (May 15, 2007)

i think every one who asked a question is still waiting for answers. i sure thought there would have been more people hwell:


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

Freedom is worth standing up for.

If not us than who will stand up?

The people that showed up care about freedom and States Rights.

The ones who showed up believe this is important enough to give up a part of there life to make a showing.

WE ALL HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO..... THIS IS A PRIORITY FOR ME....FOR MY GRANDSON....

*MB*


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Snap Draggin said:


> I for one am very disappointed in the turn out. I drove over there from Nederland. Nick Lampson does not even represent my district. I would have thought that a district with a population like Harris County has could have easily packed the auditorium. Sadly that was not the case. I must admit that the auditorium was hard to find; however if two ******** from Jefferson County could find it I would figure that folks from that area could have as well.


I tried to edit my post, but it timed out before I could finish. The edited version is below.

I for one am very disappointed in the turn out. I drove over there from Nederland. Nick Lampson does not even represent my district. I would have thought that a district with a population like Harris County has could have easily packed the auditorium. Sadly that was not the case.

I must admit that the auditorium was hard to find; however if one ******* from Jefferson County and one from Chambers County could find it I would figure that folks from that area could have as well.

I believe this sit on our hands and do nothing then complain later when things go awry attitude is going to lead to our demise on the Red Snapper issue. This thread had over 10,000 views and if only 5% would have shown up we could have packed the place. This to me could possibly lead Roy Crabtree to believe that there are actually not that many people concerned about the issue.


----------



## Primer (Jan 12, 2008)

There were alot of good questions.....


----------



## warlock (Mar 27, 2006)

Snap Draggin,

You are unfortunatly correct not that many care...recreational offshore fishing has moved away from something the average guy could do 30 years ago on a head boat for a few buck with the kids...with gas on the water at $3.50...the perception that you need a 100,000 or better rig...Kingfish are trash...it seems to have changed to an Elite Sport...I know better, but most its just not an issue and will never care...I wish I could have made it but had kid duty with the Wife out of Town and I live only a couple of miles away and had to drive past it getting a kid to a school event.


----------



## manintheboat (Jun 1, 2004)

I was dissapointed in the turnout as well. I really expected to see more people than what showed up, but appreciate those who did. I appreciate Lampson putting this together, as I appreciate Jim Smarr's efforts as well. I also appreciate Crabtree taking the time to discuss this with us. I still cannot wrap my mind around the Florida numbers that caused the season to pull back to August 5th though. 

It seems our only hope is to attend future GC meetings and make sure that the next stock assesments are done fairly and no enviro slant is put on the outcome.


----------



## Team Ranger Bob (Jul 13, 2004)

*My take from the back row.*

Being an inshore guy I will not talk statistics because frankly I am not up on what is happening with the snapper population other than hearing that this has been an ongoing process since the eighties.

I was disappointed in Dr Parker, his time was spent patting T.P & W on the back and if you follow these things inshore you know that a third of what was repeated from Dr Mc Kinneys speech to the commission was folley.
Parks and Wildlife does great work and I am happy to give them my money before other government agencies but the drift of this statement is do not get caught up in their stated accomplishments because the next meeting may be with them on the other side of the table.

People, to me Dr Crabtree looked like a beleagured individual who is a case for going postal, he looked to me to be between a rock and a hard spot with no way out. I do think that it was great for a representative of our federal government to come here and do as he is expected to do and explain the position of the feds.

The hard part:
This looked the same as dealing with the state, the science works the same way and on and on, the state is politically driven as well as science driven and I was waiting to see the politics with the feds and thought that the question about counting fish over artificial structure would reveal it and maybe it did with the statement about _Alabama_ and the success they are having with snapper, you see If I remember correctly Florida does not have the artificial structures like the Texas and Louisiana coast and that coul well play into how numbers are looked at if we were to say split the Gulf into various regulated areas.

The part that got me came in right away and that was the part of CCA in all of this, CCAs filing suit against the feds has brought this to where it is right now concerning adopting federal rules in state waters and indicates why CCA was for this. As with the 25" trout ruling The Coastal Bend Guides Association learned to be wary of what they asked for and this would apply to CCA as well if the paid attention to what their members tell them.

In CCAs defense, again this thing has been going on since the eighties with no end in site and I hesitate to think how much of our money has been spent on this thing and somebody needs to get this thing done.
It does continually come back to me though that if the Feds have taken all this time and spent all this money with no resolution why would we want them taking control of our state waters in any form or fasion and for me the question is where does that stop? at the Livingston dam north Texas where
and how will it end.
The statement was made that a motion had been made for the Feds to over rule the states of Texas and Florida and I thought that the underlying message was (and never said) that in the 09 assessment this is what will most likely happen!

The turn out was good to great for this area for something that is not as controversial as it was before the Dickinson meeting and this area generally leads the way in attendance.
We as fisherman do not turn out even though I think you Blue Water guys do a much better job than those of us from the inshore side.

Good to great, well that represents what I see as I go to these things and in no way is it good to great as a whole, we need to pack these rooms at every turn for these things and go as fishermen and not as inshore, offshore, potlicking bait chunkers, artificial elitists, yakers, guides, pros or power boaters and all the other names we use to seperate ourselves from being plain old fishermen, so the people with the state, the feds and the special interest groups see that those guys that account for that $1.6 billion dollar economic take, vote and stand together.

I will say and being politically minded to the right I was more than satisfied on this evening with my representative Mr Lampson, even though he only has about seven months left to serve this district I applaud him and the effort as well as the change in his voting record over the last year.

We need to push these people to get the right to fish bills through and to stop this talk about permits in each state for the water we will run through our boats with this new ruling, surprisingly in congress Democrats are seem to be taking the lead in stopping this injustice.

Jim Smarr, well he Jim I guess and a whole lot closer to listening to fishermen that anyone over at CCA. Good job Jim.

Ranger Bob


----------



## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Team Ranger Bob said:


> Jim Smarr, well he Jim I guess and a whole lot closer to listening to fishermen that anyone over at CCA. Good job Jim.


I agree with that 100%. According to what Dr. Crabtree said last night CCA is the reason for the season being cut even more this year because of the lawsuit they filed with the wacked out enviro scum bags.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*snapper*

Howdy,
Well, first I would like to express my appreciation for Congressman Lampson, Commissioner Parker, and Jim Smarr for making the effort to fight for us Texas recreational fishermen. Although the turnout was not what I had hoped for, I came away from that meeting with a sense of hope for the future...we have a Congressman asking to have a *Task Force* set up to adequately address the issues. This is what it will take - Heck, I couldn't decide what I wanted to talk to Crabtree about last night, as there are too many issues to be addressed; 365 day season for commercials coupled with a 65 day season for recs, Alabama's 40 mile coastline producing (and sustaining) 40% of the recreationally-caught snapper, flaws in the fish count assessment process, flaws in the process of determing fishing effort, etc. etc.

I'm also very proud to see Commissioner Parker take such a great interest in the rights of Texas recreational anglers. He presented data that showed that Texas is one of only 4 states in the entire nation (only state in the Gulf) that had an increase in saltwater angler participation; # of TX saltwater anglers in 2001 - 880,350, 2006 - 1,147,000. Financials of TX saltwater anglers resulted in $1.3 billion in 2001, $1.7 billion in 2006. In effect, he was explaining to Crabtree that TPWD is in full control of our Texas fisheries with great success, and that NMFS has not demonstrated that they could do it any better. Kudos Commissioner!

Lastly, Smarr has demonstrated a tireless energy to defend the rights of Texas recreational anglers for many years now. Many people are just starting to realize this. Kudos to you Smarr, and Thanks for getting some action on this very important issue at the State and Federal levels.

All the best,
Tom Hilton


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Congressman Lampson has asked for a RED Snapper Task Force to be put together to work out an alternative to the current NMFS plan. Congressman Lampson was briefed on many different aspect of the behind the scenes problems with NMFS and various 

Appointees of NMFS to various positions. He will be working as he has to help us.



The statement by Team Ranger Bob



"I will say and being politically minded to the right I was more than satisfied on this evening with my representative Mr Lampson, even though he only has about seven months left to serve this district I applaud him and the effort as well as the change in his voting record over the last year". End quote TRB







We (RFA) believe Congressman Lampson will have wide support from the Fishing and Hunting groups. He is a member of the Sportsman's Caucus in Congress. We need to show our support unless there is a change in his support of our Sporting Groups. Last night was a prime example of his support of the Saltwater Fishing Crowd. Remember Members of Congress form opinions from these meetings then go to Washington to respond via legislation. Sparring with a Government Employee (Dr. Crabtree) In Public would not solve anything. I can say one of the first things Congressman Lampson did was give me his cel phone number a few years ago. Guess what he answers the phone when I call him. He works very hard for us make no mistake about it. In this day and time some Members of Congress listen to the Enviro's and take their distorted facts as the truth. Congressman Lampson has shown he is willing to step back and look at the universe of data before making a critical decision. Once we realized the room at the Library was not large enough to accommodate the potential crowd Carrie Chess and Nickolas Willaims in Congressman Lampson went into overtime to find a larger venue at the last minute. We did have 70 more than the Library would have held. Thanks go out to the staff for helping work up the meeting and logistics. With all this said as Chairman of RFA Texas,  RFA Texas has chosen to support Congressman Lampson for re-election and there is no secret about it.







I can assure you I was asked by Congressman Lampson and Commissioner Parker my take on a few of Dr. Crabtree's responses. Both Men had a copy of statements Dr. Robert Shipp and Vernon Minton had entered into the Gulf Council Record and Congressional Testimony on NMFS acceptance of fish over artificial reefs and the total lack of confidence in NMFS stock assessments. 



I have asked Congressman Lampson to work with Congressman Solomon Ortiz who sits on the Fisheries Sub Committee in Congress to focus on the economic damage to our Coastal Communities across the Gulf. Commercial fishermen have really been given

the total fishery with their 365 day season. Congressman Lampson has sponsored HR5425 for flexibility in the Magnuson and was the first and only Texas Member of Congress to do so. Roy's voice and hands were shaking when he said the Bill would not help. Mr. Ortiz and Mr. Paul from Texas signed off on as supporters after the bill was introduced by the way.















Commissioner Parker was there for one reason to explain to Dr. Crabtree once again why Texas did not bend to Federal Pressure. The man is 76 years old and has been involved 

In more Conservation and Recreational Hunting and Fishing rights than everyone else combined in the room for the last 40 plus years. He helped put together the first DU banquet in Texas. He came for one reason to draw a hard line in the sand for Dr. Crabtree to see driving home the total support of the Texans. I am sure at his age he really had rather been home relaxing but drove from Lufkin to stand up for all Texans. I feel his presence spoke volumes to the Feds. We should be Thankful he came and consider it a blessing.



I saw a little different mix in the crowd. There were many non permitted boat owners in the crowd.



The largest present under the Christmas Tree was the statement by Dr. Crabtree that the Maximun Sustained Yeild is a moving target, unknown or some other Black Hole Calculation. I am not for sure how he stated the MSY debacle but he sure dropped the bomb that it was unknown but we will know when we reach it. Not his words above but my take on it. The sports writers keyed on this immediately as they were all writing during the MSY statement.



The second most impressive gift is Dr. Crabtree went on the record placing the blame squarely on the folks behind the shrimp lawsuit getting us where we are. He named names and called them allies or partners in forcing the current 64 day season a 2 fish.

I will let you guess who the two .Orgs were ?



Third was the not counting fish over artificial reefs or oil platforms (Un Natural Bottom)

was simply False according to Dr Crabtree. Seems Congressman Lampson and Commissioner Parker had the Shipp Minton Document to the Council and Dr. Shipp's testimony to Congress laying out a different point of view. The Congressional Testimony was a total indictment of NMFS Data along with the failed model NMFS uses. Seems Alabama has done a good job understanding Red Snapper since 42% come from there.


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

*Sport Fishing Magazine*

Sport Fishing Magazine Has an editorial called " Make Bad Science Better " by Doug Olander.

Statements like " INSUFFICIENT SCIENCE " and " BEST AVAILABLE SCIENCE " may more accurately describe the science.

I spoke last night and describe the science as *Possibility Flawed*.

If proven flawed I asked if there was any *Contingency Plan* by NMFA or any one else to help those who were being economically impacted by the action of flawed science?

In Texas speak " Are the 6 Pack guys, Head Boat guys, and Coastal Community that are loosing there businesses and lively hoods going to be given any money to help them out"?

The answer was " NO "

Conclusion: *The Federal Government has not even considered helping you*.

There has been No Disaster Relief ( Disaster Relief ?) put in place to assist you.

I find it odd that there is a 1.7 Billion Dollar industry on the Texas Gulf Coast thats under assault by a Federal Government Agency using questionable science and no one ( In Government ) cares enough to put in place a safety net?

We have safety nets FOR EVERYONE " BUT YOU "......

The Federal Government is currently allowing the large Banks and Bankers to borrow $2000000000000.00 Two Hundred Billion Dollars a week for the next 6 months. Thats a 5.2 Trillion Dollar safety net.

We can bail out the Bankers ( that have raped us ) and drop a bomb on Texas Coastal Communities that have been growing while other States have been in decline.

The Banking Industry clearly needs Dr. Crabtree's science of OVER FISHED AND OVER FISHING applied.

Or may be this is by design?

May Be we are not looking at this from the right angle.

Cold it be that this is a larger plan to gain more control over Texans and Texas Coastal land ?

IE starve out the people..... Buy the land at .50 cents on the Dollar ( oh yah thats right the Dollar is now only worth around .70 cents ) OK .35 cents on the Dollar..... Bring in new developments that have the Perception of Coastal Living.

Boast that the new developments will bring in new jobs ( for illegal workers ) and Revitalize the Gulf Coast......

We need to FOLLOW THE MONEY.....

There is always a Money Trail Behind an action, and there's a money behind this action.

Who stands to WIN ?

Answer that and expose it ( AND THEM ) for what it is....

*A PAY OFF .....*

*MB*


----------



## Hughoo222 (Aug 24, 2005)

Doug Olander is a BIG CCA supporter! I have spoken directly with him and he is no friend of the Texas offshore fisherman, go back a year or so and find where he is lauding the lawsuit that got us all hosed.

I no longer subscribe to Mr. Olander's Magazine.



MB said:


> Sport Fishing Magazine Has an editorial called " Make Bad Science Better " by Doug Olander.
> 
> Statements like " INSUFFICIENT SCIENCE " and " BEST AVAILABLE SCIENCE " may more accurately describe the science.
> 
> ...


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

Hughoo222 said:


> Doug Olander is a BIG CCA supporter! I have spoken directly with him and he is no friend of the Texas offshore fisherman, go back a year or so and find where he is lauding the lawsuit that got us all hosed.
> 
> I no longer subscribe to Mr. Olander's Magazine.


Hay Doug,

If your reading this thread we would love to here from you....

Are you a BIG CCA supporter ?

*MB*


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*snapper*

This thread be the best indicator of what's wrong with our fisheries; it's gotten 11,825 hits, yet produced about 120 actual people to attend the meeting that this thread is about. Pitiful. It seems that a lot of people want to pout and moan about the issues, but just a few have the gumption to actually DO anything about it. Actions speak much louder than words.

There is a RFA fundraiser sticky that Mont posted on 04-17 which has gotten a whopping 334 hits!!! Wow. Based on the above ratios, this fund raiser can expect to have a whopping 2 people show up. Get off your butts people and DO SOMETHING of substance, or simply quit complaining about what Crabtree or anybody else is doing to our fishing.

Tom Hilton


----------



## oldtrackster (Jul 20, 2007)

*RFA fundraiser*

Mr. Hilton,
Our country is being run more and more by those people who have obtained wealth as someone recently stated on this board "follow the money." I have looked at the fundraiser and it would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 for me to attend once gas, motel and table ticket is included and that is if I eat no other meals. This whole situation makes me sick because I know in reality that is a pitifully small amount of money and I simply do not have it. I see these losses happening in more places than just fishing. I have voted religiously for the last 14 years and find I am voting for the lesser of two evils when looking at candidates. Money now controls our country; as an important book states "the _*love *_of money is the root of all evil". I will continue to write my letters and contact government representatives, but I fear it is little heard without the influence of money. I earnestly hope that you and others will continue to work hard and not be swayed by the disappointing moments.

Side note: if any of you gentlemen have obtained wealth I do believe obtaining wealth is more a matter of knowledge than birth in what is still the greatest country in the world and I would be happy to have a mentor in such in endeavors.


----------



## freespool (Oct 1, 2005)

I think I learned one thing for sure last night and that was any relief we get is not going to come from NMFS. It will have to be something outside that pressures them into changing.
I too was a bit disappointed in the turn out. As many different larger boats as I work on I would have thought I would known more people in the room.
Time to write more letters to more people in the goverment.


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Oldtrackster-keep voting and writing letters. We need help at all levels. You are doing what you can and I appreciate your efforts. 

Simply put Thank You.


----------



## Team Ranger Bob (Jul 13, 2004)

*Contact for Dr Crabtree*

I was unable to stay and talk with Dr Crabtree after the meeting last night.
Did any one get his card and maybe an e-mail address? if so please pass it along.
I am curious to see how the Magnuson Stevens act might possibly affect inshore fishing if they force the state to accept federal rules in 09.

One other thing that bothered me was the talk about holding a federal permit and being bound to federal rules in state waters.

Ranger Bob


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*snapper*

Old Trackster,
I understand - doing what you can is all anyone can ask. 
All the best,
Tom


----------



## tokavi (May 6, 2006)

Team Ranger Bob said:


> I was unable to stay and talk with Dr Crabtree after the meeting last night.
> Did any one get his card and maybe an e-mail address? if so please pass it along.
> *I am curious to see how the Magnuson Stevens act might possibly affect inshore fishing if they force the state to accept federal rules in 09.*
> 
> ...


Here is one major change all the inshore guys will have to live with. *It is illegal to retain redfish in federal waters.* If we are fishing under their rules you can not keep a redfish. Pass that on to your bayfishing pals and CCA.


----------



## Hughoo222 (Aug 24, 2005)

Why are we not just pushing the game fish issue? It would solve our commercial problem real quick!


----------



## tokavi (May 6, 2006)

Hughoo222 said:


> Why are we not just pushing the game fish issue? It would solve our commercial problem real quick!


 I've been saying the same thing for years. Who needs to by snapper in a restraunt? Most folks will eat tilapia and not know the difference.


----------



## Ed (Mar 23, 2005)

Team Ranger Bob said:


> I was unable to stay and talk with Dr Crabtree after the meeting last night.
> Did any one get his card and maybe an e-mail address? if so please pass it along.
> I am curious to see how the Magnuson Stevens act might possibly affect inshore fishing if they force the state to accept federal rules in 09.
> 
> ...


I asked the question about that Friday night and Dr Crabtree did in fact acknowledge that such a rule was on the agenda for the Gulf Council to consider. Apparently it is not something NMFS intends to do unilateraly, but is an amendment to be considered and voted on by the entire council. I have not yet read it, but I am willing to bet that the intention of the rule is to prevent vessels with federal permits from retaining red snapper in state waters during the federal closure. However, in typical fashion, these "one size fits all" rules always have unintended consequences, and in this case it seems the retention of red drum in state waters by federal permit holders will be prohibited. Nice.


----------



## Ed (Mar 23, 2005)

Hughoo222 said:


> Why are we not just pushing the game fish issue? It would solve our commercial problem real quick!


Keep in mind that the US Govt has issued IFQ's for the commercial red snapper fishery and an IFQ is a property right. I would guess that any "taking" of the commercial quota would entail a massive buyout of the commercial IFQ. Red snapper commercial IFQ's are selling for around $10 a pound. The commercial 2008 TAC is 2.55 million pounds, so that's a market value buyout of $25,500,000. I don't see the Feds coming up with that kind of cheese to let us catch more fish.


----------



## Captain Randy (Sep 16, 2005)

Hughoo222 said:


> Why are we not just pushing the game fish issue? It would solve our commercial problem real quick!


 I have been looking for federal referances for game fish and can't find any.
On the state level there is no reason to push for game fish status since the commercials have the same posession limit as recs have, 4/person. The only group that would be hurt by game fish status are the spearfishermen since Texas wont let you spear game fish.

Randy


----------



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

Ed said:


> Keep in mind that the US Govt has issued IFQ's for the commercial red snapper fishery and an IFQ is a property right. I would guess that any "taking" of the commercial quota would entail a massive buyout of the commercial IFQ. Red snapper commercial IFQ's are selling for around $10 a pound. The commercial 2008 TAC is 2.55 million pounds, so that's a market value buyout of $25,500,000. I don't see the Feds coming up with that kind of cheese to let us catch more fish.


the money to do this is already in place. $3 per pound is also the asking price for a lease of their share. It would be very easy to do this buyout at arms length and be done with the BS surrounding this issue. It's all about money and we have it good to go.


----------



## flymost (Nov 6, 2006)

*Gamefish Status*

If I remember right, each state needs to declare RS a gamefish??? That then prohibits the comm fisherman from landing their catch anywhere thus effectively shutting them down. Also, I believe it would not even allow Mexican caught RS from being brought into Texas and sold. Anyone know more about this??? I am in agreement that declaring RS a gamefish is the best way to solve this problem.


----------



## Hughoo222 (Aug 24, 2005)

They can keep their IFQ, but they will not be able to run out of Texas either....kinda like they can fish in Texas waters but can only keep 4 fish. In all honesty the number is chump change compared to crashing the whole thing....which is where we are headed after 15 years of help from NMFS. The Whitehouse wants aquaculture increased domestically and cleaner ways to do it, from carrots to chicken we already farm most of our food. There also needs to be some sort of response from people willing to throw time and/or money at solutions, our enemys are well organised and well funded....sad part is many of us own expensive boats and homes yet won't do much to help except complain....it takes MONEY and people power!!!

Thanks for all your help Ed.



Ed said:


> Keep in mind that the US Govt has issued IFQ's for the commercial red snapper fishery and an IFQ is a property right. I would guess that any "taking" of the commercial quota would entail a massive buyout of the commercial IFQ. Red snapper commercial IFQ's are selling for around $10 a pound. The commercial 2008 TAC is 2.55 million pounds, so that's a market value buyout of $25,500,000. I don't see the Feds coming up with that kind of cheese to let us catch more fish.


----------



## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

Dr. Crabtree's telephone # is 727-824-5301, Fax is 727-824-5320. He seemed like a very sincere man and promised to answer his calls or call us back on any issue. Thanks for your respect---Pat


----------



## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

*Congressman Ted Poe*

I sent this to Congressman Ted Poe Tonight for what its worth.

Hi Congressman Poe,

I'm contacting you about the Federal Red Snapper Reg's. that NMFA have just been reduced to about 63 days ( June 1 to Aug. 3 or so ). There was a meeting last night hosted by Congressman Nick Lampson on this topic. We learned that Salt Water Fishing off the Texas Gulf Coast generated 1.7 Billion Dollars in the last year checked 2006. We also learned that since 2001 Salt Water Fishing off the Texas Gulf Coast has grown every year 20% or more. No other State Has grown like this. All other Gulf Coast States are in decline at this time. I spoke at this meeting last night and asked Dr.Crebtree a simple question " What contingency plan is in place to help the Texas Gulf Coast Communities, the Charter Boat and Head boat Captains? These people will certainly be injured as a result of this action? His answer was NONE..... Dr.Crebtree followed with a statement that is still puzzling to me which was " You'll have to contact DISASTER RELIF ". A Federal Agency ( NMFA ) drops a bomb on the Texas Gulf Coast fishing Communities ( a reduced Total Allowable Catch and a 2 month season ) which WILL cause that 1.7 Billion to go down and than has the nerve to tell those injured to contact A Federal Agency for DISASTER RELIF....... Congressman Poe we need to hear from you. It looks like there is an effort by A Federal Agency ( NMFA ) to take away a little more of our Freedom and cause a lot of good people ( Texans ) hardship that many of us believe is unnecessary and avoidable. I'd like to know where you stand on this Issue. Please contact me as soon as you can.

May God Bless You,

Mark Bailey,

*MB*


----------



## jim smarr (May 21, 2004)

Katie Lynn- NMFS is sincere about making recreational anglers an endangered species.
Dr. Crabtree has been less than truthful on many issues. Sorry to burst your bubble.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

flymost said:


> If I remember right, each state needs to declare RS a gamefish??? That then prohibits the comm fisherman from landing their catch anywhere thus effectively shutting them down. Also, I believe it would not even allow Mexican caught RS from being brought into Texas and sold. Anyone know more about this??? I am in agreement that declaring RS a gamefish is the best way to solve this problem.


Game fish will not be enough. Catfish, flounder etc are game fish. we need to have TPWD only to recognize laws from the dept of fish and game not from the dept of comerce.


----------



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*nmfs*

Howdy,
here's a shot from the meeting Friday night while Crabtree was talking - Mont, if this is too risque, please remove with my apologies.
Tom


----------

