# 1/8 Combined Electric and Nitro Rules



## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Ok, this has become a hot-button subject, and let's get it figured out. 

And before we get started, let me just say that splitting up the classes is not an option at this point. Let me also say that this not to be a b*tch session about nitro vs. electric. So, let's keep this thread focused, neutral, and with the goal of coming up with a fair set of rules so electric and nitro 1/8 can co-exist.

So, topic #1 is pit stops. The rule we tried to run with at this last race seemed to be a little off. We tried to make it to where if a race was 15 minutes or longer, the electrics had to pit stop to level it out. While some people do own motors/pipes that can run in excess of 10 minutes, no-one ever seems to risk it and they always come in for a pit stop. So, I propose that we do this:

For every 10 minutes of racing, ALL cars are to make at least one 3 second pit stop. 

Now, that opens it up for how this can be enforced because in the heat of the race, sometimes people just don't even remember to do it if they don't have to. So, to remedy that, I propose this:

If in a 10+ minute race, then at around either 4 minutes, or 7 minutes, each of the electrics are required to pull in and make their pit. The announcer will call that it is time, and knowing before hand how many electrics are in a heat, they can watch pit-lane for a period of about 60 seconds. Then they just count cars and make sure they all pitted.

Topic #2: Reverse in 1/8 electric. We have already discussed this, and it is not legal, and will remain that way. I propose this:

If you see someone using reverse, then simply let the race announcer (not me) know, and they will be not be allowed to continue racing until they program their ESC into reverse lock-out mode and will be required to demonstrate that it is locked out to the race director. Further violations will be penalized by either docking laps, or removal from the race. Again, this is enforced by the race director.....not me! 

So, again, let's keep this thread focused, and let me know if you think those rules will cover it for now. Remember my rule: K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple, Stupid! That means don't even bother proposing some kind of long or complicated set of rules.....this isn't ROAR, and it never will be!


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Hint for the electric guys. Pit early. As soon as you get into your groove and the field has been untangled, pit! You should be able to do this within 2-3 minutes. That gives you the rest of race to relax and not having to think about pitting.

Easy, pleasy lemon squezzy.


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## jboehm (May 2, 2009)

How about pit them on the first lap? Everyone should be close together which will make it easier for the race director to keep tabs on their pit stop.


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## SwayOveride (Aug 12, 2004)

I would say just let them pit whenever they want (all the nitro guys don't pit at the same time). If I were racing, as soon as the race starts, I would be racing to the pits. Get that three seconds over with and be on my way for the rest of the race.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

SwayOveride said:


> I would say just let them pit whenever they want (all the nitro guys don't pit at the same time). If I were racing, as soon as the race starts, I would be racing to the pits. Get that three seconds over with and be on my way for the rest of the race.


Yup!


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## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

CV I think the pitting idea sounds good but only effective if it is monitored by someone. Another concern were the number of electrics just sitting idle on the track waiting for buzzer of even during a race. I think that if we are doing rolling starts then everyone needs to be moving in the right direction and not just sitting creating a road hazard. If not we should just start all qualifiers at a gate like in a main. I nailed numerous electrics just chillin on the track either wating for buzzer or having electrical issues. I know when nitro flames out they our pulled off immediately and the marshalls can't tell if electrics are just sitting or have problems. That is when the driver needs to says something or car should be pulled for sitting in traffic. As for seperating of classes why not if it keeps growing or is it for the lack of a trophy. I'm sure nitro guys would donate generously to have a 1/8 electric sportsman trophy.


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## Cassidy S. (Apr 21, 2009)

just a question who can have a nitro car pitted in 3 sec.?


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## rodgedaddy (Nov 11, 2008)

they cant c.s. it should be set at 5 sec.


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## jboehm (May 2, 2009)

Could automatically add 10 seconds to an electric racers total time and eliminate the need for a monitored stop. However, you will lose the " anything can happen" part of the stop.


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## rodgedaddy (Nov 11, 2008)

electrics, do what you wan't, but don't try it at the river, cause the race director(*ken*) won't put up with it.


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## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

Thank god for "The River"!


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

I disagree.....I see the Henn's and the Hagler's do 3 second pit stops all the time. Keep in mind, I'm talking about the time from when the car is picked up and put back down.....not driving down the pit lane. The electrics are SUPPOSED to pull in, stop for 3 seconds, and then go again.

As far as people sitting on the track, I agree....that needs to stop.....NITROS TOO!!! I see people circling around a certain corner or hanging out on the straight just waiting for the buzzer. I was going to address this either way at the next race. I'm going to have Phil make sure everyone keeps moving. During a race, it has always been against the rules to go backwards or stop on the track......during any portion of the race or practice.

Not seperating doesn't have anything to do with not having a trophy, it has to do with how many electrics there are on AVERAGE. This last race was an exceptional turnout for electrics. There are normally 3-5 on average, and the tracks prefer not to run them with that few cars....it adds a lot of time on. Additionally, it is entirely possible that we may split next year, but for now we are half a season into the point series, and that would just be wrong to do to other racers.

Making the electric guys pit on the first lap is like telling them that they have to give the nitro guys a head start.....that ain't gonna fly. We tried letting them pit whenever they want this last race, and there is absolutely no way any race director can keep up with who has/hasn't pitted. So, making them all pit within a 60 second range, at a designated time would help with that. I would tend to agree that the earlier the better, but not right at the start. I also feel the same way about adding time to someone's race time.....not to mention, there's not really a way to do that in the lap timing systems. 

Keep it coming guys....this is good input......we're going to figure this out!

P.S. I told you this was a hot topic! Lots of replies very quick!


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## rodgedaddy (Nov 11, 2008)

lets compare apples to apples, not apples to pita bread. henn=expert, hagler=expert, they have been doing it for some time. this is the sportsman class, where newbies have their friends who don't know what their doing using a squirt bottle tring to hit a nickel target and doing within 3 sec..........not freakin possible. earth to.......:headknock:headknock


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Allthough I dont race anymore CV, I think you need to seperate electric and nitro. Those are two totally different classes and have no business racing together.

Ill bow out now and do my plane stuff.


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## Cassidy S. (Apr 21, 2009)

i think they should have to be picked up and put back down by pit crew to keep from geting in the way of other cars.


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## rodgedaddy (Nov 11, 2008)

Gary said:


> Allthough I dont race anymore CV, I think you need to seperate electric and nitro. Those are two totally different classes and have no business racing together.
> 
> Ill bow out now and do my plane stuff.


AND IT'S GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WALK OFF GRAND SLAM BOTTOM OF THE 9th!
simply put.


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## SwayOveride (Aug 12, 2004)

The more the better. Gives people a chance to work on their driving and passing skills. Since it was stated that there is no chance at splitting the class up, some people should think about this as a chance to hone their skills and learn how to wheel their car better.

Do the top drivers in nitro complain about electric?


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## rodgedaddy (Nov 11, 2008)

no, they won't race in the expert class, mostly sportsman.
and i'd rather save my 25$ to race and buy a case of cold ones.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

There were at least 2 e-cars in the Expert class this weekend, may have been 3. It's a pretty fair fight as long as they make as many stops as the fuel cars. CV, Earl wrote up some rules awhile back. Almost all the gas cars can go 7:30 or more now. Base the pits on that. That means one for a 10 or 15 minute race, 2 for a 20. I don't see any way you can enforce any of this without having a volunteer in the pits to simply watch the electric cars to make sure they pit and make sure the car is up for 3 seconds, etc. +1 on having a pit guy hold the car up at the starts, just like a fuel car. As far as reverse, I'd say the first time you make them lock it out. If it happens again, they lose a lap off their best qual. Too much money tied up in our cars to lose a front end that way. Personally, I don't mind racing against the e-cars at all in a club race.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Cassidy, this is what is supposed to happen....they are supposed to be lifted onto the rail, held for 3 seconds, and then put back down.

Roger, 80% of the expert pit stops, and about 50-60% of the pit stops are 3 seconds or less once the car is picked up......Trust me, I've watched LOTS of pit stops. Don't believe me? Go grab your car and pit it on the table, get your fuel bottle ready, and have someone time you from the time you put your hands on it, fill it up, and throw it back down. Do it 10 times and you'll get it down to 3-4 seconds. I don't care if you're an expert or a sportsman, it's your responsibility to practice and get up to speed.

And no, there were 3 electrics in the expert class................5 or so in the sportsman. And no, the experts don't complain about the electrics.........at least not to me.

Gary, some of these electric guys have been with us since the beginning of the year. How would you feel if it was you that had been working at the points all season long and then I told you that you were going to have to race with 3-4 other people from now on? I refuse to do that to anyone.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

No Loyd, they don't. The top 8 or 9 were fuel cars. You know fast is always fast not matter what they drive.


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## troytyro (Feb 3, 2009)

*HPI Baja race at the river*

OK lets throw in some 1/5 scale baja into the mix!! but in its own class...

does The River Track sound good

lets just race


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Courtney Vaughan said:


> Gary, some of these electric guys have been with us since the beginning of the year. How would you feel if it was you that had been working at the points all season long and then I told you that you were going to have to race with 3-4 other people from now on? I refuse to do that to anyone.


IMO point series mean very little Courtney. In my experiance the noobs want a fair chance of some gold. The best of the best wanna run on an even level field against the best racers than can race with. For the experts, that old adage of just being out here for the fun is really not true. We lie!

We race to win against the best and noobs can get in the way!

Seperate the classes bro. If I raced next week, I could care less about the point series. I would wanna kick Rodgers arse! :tongue:


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Gary, you're missing the point. It's a club race, not a ROAR or RC Pro event. There are whole lot of us running against the e-cars and only a few complaining. Reverse is obviously an issue, but is there anyone here who's never seen a fuel car go backwards on the track? I saw some this weekend, and I lost a front end last year to someone driving their 1/8 backwards at Mike's. There are always going to be knuckleheads no matter the fuel source. If people will follow the rules then it's a fair fight. You'd be surprised how evenly matched a 1/8 fuel and e-car are.


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## Tol Thomas (Feb 18, 2005)

As for the electrics pitting and keeping up with it. Find one person to volunteer and designate him to be the electric pit guy. Designate the number of time that the electrics have to pit and write down these peoples names on a piece of paper. Then you have that one guy get with those who run electric and find out what time they want to pit. He will call them in, hold them for 3 seconds in the air and then let them go again, once done he will put a check by that guys name on that piece of paper mentioned earlier. Once the race was done you verify that they all pitted. If they all pitted the race is official, if someone missed a pit you can and should add approximately 7 seconds to their final time(the program will allow you to adjust time).


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

cjtamu said:


> Gary, you're missing the point. It's a club race, not a ROAR or RC Pro event. There are whole lot of us running against the e-cars and only a few complaining. Reverse is obviously an issue, but is there anyone here who's never seen a fuel car go backwards on the track? I saw some this weekend, and I lost a front end last year to someone driving their 1/8 backwards at Mike's. There are always going to be knuckleheads no matter the fuel source. If people will follow the rules then it's a fair fight. You'd be surprised how evenly matched a 1/8 fuel and e-car are.


Chris, I can't speak for anyone else but myself. There is no way I would spend $25 to race my $3000 rig to race against rookie truggy drivers. Nor would I expect to have to "PIT" if I was running electric against nitro cars.

Yea I know it's none of my bussiness since I dont race anymore and should shut up. Ill get back to my planes.


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## mmorrow (Jan 18, 2009)

Roger who pits you? (JB) is he not an expert? Most of the time I pit for the sportsmen. guess I am not an expert either. lol. In Victoria last weekend I had a sportsmen from the cmain pit me. Not a good idea btw. ran out of fuel. 

I have been asked for my opinion on this and I feel that either no pit stop required or 1 per 10 mins sounds fair. Yes 3 seconds is more than far for the nitro guys.
If I am not mistaken in the RC Pro state series their are several guys running elec production monster trucks. (revos, lst's). They are not required to pit at all. 

Yes, Biff you are correct back in the day we would not think of running them together. Until we have enough to fill a class and finish the season leave it alone.
Biff go back to the planes, or come race and then you will understand where we are coming from. 
Earl is one of the most competitive guys out there and I would be disappointed If I could not race him for the rest of the year.
Sounds like things are set up good. Just need the rules laid out and a way to monitor the pits. Tol sounds like he just volunteered for the job.


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## rex cars (Jul 8, 2007)

The initial proposal is the best compromise to finish out the season. Race director to call a minute window for the electrics to pit. Between the race director and Tol it should be easy enough to watch and check off that everyone does their pit time. Table the class split until after the end of the season.


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## mmorrow (Jan 18, 2009)

BTW I know a few of us that plan on having an elec next season


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## rodgedaddy (Nov 11, 2008)

Gary said:


> IMO point series mean very little Courtney. In my experiance the noobs want a fair chance of some gold. The best of the best wanna run on an even level field against the best racers than can race with. For the experts, that old adage of just being out here for the fun is really not true. We lie!
> 
> We race to win against the best and noobs can get in the way!
> 
> Seperate the classes bro. If I raced next week, I could care less about the point series. I would wanna kick Rodgers arse! :tongue:


whatever


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## rodgedaddy (Nov 11, 2008)

mmorrow said:


> Roger who pits you? (JB) is he not an expert? Most of the time I pit for the sportsmen. guess I am not an expert either. lol. In Victoria last weekend I had a sportsmen from the cmain pit me. Not a good idea btw. ran out of fuel.
> 
> I have been asked for my opinion on this and I feel that either no pit stop required or 1 per 10 mins sounds fair. Yes 3 seconds is more than far for the nitro guys.
> If I am not mistaken in the RC Pro state series their are several guys running elec production monster trucks. (revos, lst's). They are not required to pit at all.
> ...


i'm just looking out for the other guys, thats all. i know i suck. lol


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## wily (Oct 14, 2005)

Amigos,

I honestly can not believe what I am reading in this thread. My two boys competed in the novice class with their buggies and myself in the sportsman class. I simply made the choice to go electric for the lack of headaches keeping 3 nitro cars tuned, running and healthy at the same time.

I wanted to KISS as CV states and not leave the hobby.

And now the finger pointing starts.....


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## Earl_Sparky (Jan 12, 2008)

Most of you know I have ran 1/8 scale electrics for about 2 years. My opinions have changed a lot. First I wanted the cars to run in the same class, but I have changed my mind. I will miss running against the Nitro guys when we are split up. The cars are very equal in speed, but it really takes more talent to tune a Nitro car. The Nitro racing is not just about driving. I admire the Nitro driver's commitment to their sport. It is best that two classes are created. I agree it should be done next year.
The electric car is really affordable to run in 10min races. To run against the Nitro cars in races above 15min is too much for the average person. The electric cars get very complicated and expensive to run above 15min mains.
But let me warn all of you. This will likely cause a split in the RC community. I already know once you separate the electric cars out, they will not want to come to an event and put up with the noise and smoke and marshal 30min races to run three 5min qualifiers and a 10min main. They will only do it for a chance to see what they can do against a Nitro car.
Apples to Apples is truly fair to everyone. If we have more than 4 electric cars, they should be in their own class with 10min mains.
Although it would be fun to have a "1/8 scale open class". Or could that be the expert class?


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## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

I can't believe this is such a big deal..Don't you guys see what electric can do for the hobby we all love..It will bring in people that never would have thought about racing. Some guys just cant learn how to tune a nitro i see it every day they try and try but simply can't get it..And some people like the idea of not having to beg for a pit guy every time the go to the track. And before you call the all the elec 1/8 guys sportsman think about where you Qualified.


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## SwayOveride (Aug 12, 2004)

I always knew electric would make a comeback. I just never knew it would be in 1/8th scale buggy. 

Need to get with you Phil next time I am in town to get some prices.


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## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

SwayOveride said:


> I always knew electric would make a comeback. I just never knew it would be in 1/8th scale buggy.
> 
> Need to get with you Phil next time I am in town to get some prices.


Come by you can take my RC8 out to the track and turn some laps..See how you like it..


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## SwayOveride (Aug 12, 2004)

That's what I am afraid of Phil... LOL... I see my money going out of my account into Mikes already.


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## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

SwayOveride said:


> That's what I am afraid of Phil... LOL... I see my money going out of my account into Mikes already.


That's my evil plan.lol

Sorry Courtney didn't mean to jack your thread.


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

I think we are truly missing the point here. The idea of these races are to test our skills against each other. When I play basketball, it's never the ball. It's you ability to put the ball in the hole and control it on the bounce. If an electric guy is better than me a pit wont help me pass him or beat him. 

I thought we did this for fun. It seems like a few are complaining for many. Besides pitting only matters in the Mains. We all run 5 to 7 min quals. 

In the mains everyone pits over 10min.


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## troytyro (Feb 3, 2009)

basketball


racing?


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Big Phil said:


> I can't believe this is such a big deal..Don't you guys see what electric can do for the hobby we all love..It will bring in people that never would have thought about racing. Some guys just cant learn how to tune a nitro i see it every day they try and try but simply can't get it..And some people like the idea of not having to beg for a pit guy every time the go to the track. And before you call the all the elec 1/8 guys sportsman think about where you Qualified.


+1 on this!!!! WHY IS THIS THAT BIG OF A DEAL!!! 3-5 SECONDS IN 15 MINUTES IS NOT WHY PEOPLE LOSE A RACE!!!

Also, what Earl is speaking of is what I fear most about splitting the classes up. Electric guys just won't have fun, and I beilieve that splitting them up will simply run them off of the HARC series, and you guys are sadly mistaken if you think that's the way I run things!


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## Guffinator (Aug 27, 2005)

Courtney Vaughan said:


> 3-5 SECONDS IN 15 MINUTES IS NOT WHY PEOPLE LOSE A RACE!!!


You know I was thinking this same thing


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## Earl_Sparky (Jan 12, 2008)

One issue that the Nitro guys don't understand is the rules ROAR is placing on the Electric Class. The 4s 14.8 volt limitation makes it very difficult for electric cars to run longer than 15min. But this also keeps it more economical.

Right now using the ROAR rules a 1/8 scale Buggy is really only good for 15mins.
The 1/8 scale Truggy can only run 10min.

Are you going to limit the mains to 15min for buggy and 10min for truggy?
If not, are you going to make the Nitro make a 30second pit for the electric battery change? Plus it cost $200 a battery and now the electric car has to have a pit person.
This is what most electric guys don't want.

Now you know why the classes will be split.
It is a big deal to the guy who can't finish the race.
The electrics are acutely at the disadvantage in races over 15min and may not be able to race at all.

I suggest you limit the sportsman Buggy class mains to 15mins and the Sportsman Truggy class mains to 10mins or create a new electric class NOW.
There were several electric that did not finish the mains because of battery limitations.


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## Labrat99 (May 6, 2009)

Courtney Vaughan said:


> +1 on this!!!! WHY IS THIS THAT BIG OF A DEAL!!! 3-5 SECONDS IN 15 MINUTES IS NOT WHY PEOPLE LOSE A RACE!!!
> 
> Also, what Earl is speaking of is what I fear most about splitting the classes up. Electric guys just won't have fun, and I beilieve that splitting them up will simply run them off of the HARC series, and you guys are sadly mistaken if you think that's the way I run things!


Courtney,

You're the one that seems to be getting wound up about this....

But since you asked here is my opinion. The electric cars are faster and have better run time. It's hard for me to not think that they have an advantage. They are very different critters from the nitro cars, they SHOULD have their own class. When is your call, this is your series.

As to 3-5 seconds not being a big deal, how about all you guys suggesting it voluntarily start 5 seconds after the rest of us at the next HARC race? It may not seem like much time, but when you see everybody leave and then you get to wait 5 seconds you'll see things differently. Also, it's human nature to try harder when you are behind. That often leads to mistakes. Now your 3-5 seconds is 10-15 after you crash trying to make up time.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Thank you Earl for chiming in, and I respect your input.

Additionally, this thread might lead a viewer to beleive that the electrics are getting a negative reputation, and that is far from the truth! I want to thank each and every one of the electric guys that have been racing with us....they are EXACTLY the type of racer that I want to draw in, and I want to retain with HARC!


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## Labrat99 (May 6, 2009)

Earl_Sparky said:


> Most of you know I have ran 1/8 scale electrics for about 2 years. My opinions have changed a lot. First I wanted the cars to run in the same class, but I have changed my mind. I will miss running against the Nitro guys when we are split up. The cars are very equal in speed, but it really takes more talent to tune a Nitro car. The Nitro racing is not just about driving. I admire the Nitro driver's commitment to their sport. It is best that two classes are created. I agree it should be done next year.
> The electric car is really affordable to run in 10min races. To run against the Nitro cars in races above 15min is too much for the average person. The electric cars get very complicated and expensive to run above 15min mains.
> But let me warn all of you. This will likely cause a split in the RC community. I already know once you separate the electric cars out, they will not want to come to an event and put up with the noise and smoke and marshal 30min races to run three 5min qualifiers and a 10min main. They will only do it for a chance to see what they can do against a Nitro car.
> Apples to Apples is truly fair to everyone. If we have more than 4 electric cars, they should be in their own class with 10min mains.
> Although it would be fun to have a "1/8 scale open class". Or could that be the expert class?


Well said, Earl. I agree with everything you said.

Here is my suggestion. Why not split the day up? Electric in the morning and nitro in the afternoon or vice-versa. That way the majority of folks would not have the long day, only those that choose to run both classes.

BTW, I like your idea if 1/8 open class...


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

Electrics aren't faster their just quicker and quieter. The only change I would pose for electrics is a pit in 10min. Other than that, it's all fair game. 

The only other thing I would say is just to, Shut up and Drive!!


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## Labrat99 (May 6, 2009)

kstoracing said:


> Electrics aren't faster their just quicker and quieter. The only change I would pose for electrics is a pit in 10min. Other than that, it's all fair game.
> 
> The only other thing I would say is just to, Shut up and Drive!!


I'm not sure what you mean by quicker, torque?

But I gotta call BS on the faster thing... every electric guy I've ever talked to bragged about how much faster the electrics were than nitro.


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

What, I am saying is, yeah they are quicker with the torque issue. Instant power but in the straight there isn't enough space for them to be faster. The driver may be faster. I think the only advantage is the quickness on a track. They both have advantages and disadvantages. 

I don't care wether it's a nitro or electric a slow driver is going to be slow and a fast fast. 
However, there is a difference between fast and quick.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm going to bow out of this thread for the day&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.I will be talking with our E-1/8 guys throughout the day, and pending their input, I will have a final decision tomorrow.

I assume this thread is going to continue one, so I ask that you PLEASE keep this neutral there is no negative talk.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

*My 2 Cents*

Well being I TQed and Won this last Sportsman Race, I guess its only befitting I chime in on the subject.

1. I practiced.

Make no mistake I trained my *** off this round to get what I got. After coming in 3rd, 5th and 6th on many of the other 5 Harc rounds and not even being in the top 5 position points wise by the 5th round I got motivated to practice. So, I came out and practiced there at mikes every week for about a month before this race. I DID GOOD BECAUSE I PRACTICED.

2. Mandatory pits

I agree with the gas guys about a mandatory pit for us to make it fair. When I came in at the 4 min mark last saturday I even counted out very loud so others would hear me. BTW gas guys can do 1.5-2 sec pits with the fuel guns. Do we ban those fuel guns and require gas guys to do minimum 3, 5 or 10 second pits? lol If you want! The longer im in the pits the cooler my ESC gets and the faster we go!

3. On coming in to pit at 5-7 min mark.

Many of us electric guys talked and pitted before the 5 min mark so we would not be crowding the gas guys in the pits and be a crash or traffic hazard to you and ourselves (this is a good thing for all of us) and so that total focus could be given to the fact that we made a pit and not be confused or missed cuz we came in "when it was busy" (5-7min mark) and people claimed not to notice.

4. Policing the Electric Mandatory pit

My opinion on policing the mandatory pit is to have the electric guys pit crew have a dry erase marker to put an X for every required pit on the wing or body (location not likely to rub off in crash and same for all cars). So, we come in to pits and our crew puts us on the rail (one-one thousand) pull out pen & position pen to wing or body (two- one thousand) draw the letter "X" on designated area (Three-One-thousand") Lift us back up and put us down to go. That should be 2.5-3sec on the short side to 3-5 sec on the long side if they take cap off or are plain slow. And yes one pit every 10 min bracket of race time is fair. I've seen buggies go 6-8 min on the short side to 9-13 min on the long side depending on your driving style and tuning. World champion 1/8th buggy driver Mark Pavidis goes 12 min on his fuel ups by running a tad lean and compensating for heat by driving smooth and calm which further preserves gas. Its a legitimate strategy.

5. Electric Advantages?

I heard alot about people saying we have unfair advantages. While we dont have some gas problems. Electrics cars:
-have power switches turn off when we land a jump
-the massive EM fields these brushless motors produce can mess up reception on our radios sometimes especially non 2.4 types.
-the many wires and soder connections brake off and we are hopelessly dead in the water for that race.
-Burn out motors
-Burn out ESCs
-Spin out Rotors
-Can't visually see if battery is fully charged like a fuel tank and risk accidently starting important race on a "non-Full" pack
-Lipo's EXPLODE on violent impact which is common in 1/8th racing
-Lipos Explode on too low a voltage if we dont have lipo cut off on or it fails to work!
-Cooling fans Constantly braking on many models, more heat = burnt out ESC and/or Unexpected shorter runtimes DNF.
-while you can get for electric buggies, Currently none, to few of us have the advantage of front rear brake bias and tune-ability and clutches.
-with no clutches we do not have as good a off power steering as gas cars do nor Neutral spin on jumps making it harder for some of us to control our pitch.
-And like being a former cigarette smoker who now gets irritated by cigarette smoke when it used to be ok. Us electric converties have to put up with your eye tearing, throat choking smoke EVERY race, But we dont post about that on the forums do we?

6. Oh did I mention I practiced alot?

I only hope I do as good next race, But its sorta hypocritical to complain about electric considering this was the one out of 6 races this year where we actually had a pitting limitation put on us and we did BETTER!

Finally. I agree with Phil, CV and Earl. Only reason i went electric is cuz hated crying over my gas engines. Gas guys... Join us! We wont hold it against ya. We all had to drop our pride or some notion of gas love at first but like quiting smoking you'll be glad when you do.


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## madf1man (Jan 28, 2005)

As far as speed of the electrics there were no nitro buggies I could not catch up or go as fast as down the straight with ease in sportsman. Really the only place I felt I had an advantage was going straight as my skills in offroad are weak at best. I like the idea of a split day for elec and nitro for several reasons but the biggest is time. All day events don't do anything for me personally. I think this would bring out alot more racers. For the racers running one class of car this idea would also mean not waiting so long between races. be it nitro or elec. Electric is here to stay for sure so might as well start adjusting now. I think electrics should have there own class now but if one wants to race with the nitro guys let'em but they gotta race to the nitro rules. No reverse, pit stops with pit man, 20 minutes or whatever. Man a split day sounds good! Start elec or nitro at 9 or 10am finish around 1 or 2. Break for lunch. Start the other at 3 or so finish at 8 or so. All day event for those that like it and run both. Half day for those that don't. This again I think would bring out new racers.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Earl, why the mention of ROAR legalities? Your B44 isn't ROAR legal either and Ima talk to CV about that real soon ha ha ha! Seriously, just looking for some education. There is almost no ROAR action around here. If the cars run cooler and longer at higher voltage, run 'em that way. Is it just an expense thing where you'd have to have extra batteries in case you wanted to run ROAR? For long mains (20 to 30 minutes) I'd say the e-cars only have to pit once b/c they'll have to so they can change batteries. Probably puts the e-cars at a small disadvantage to the nitros really. But you know better than I, can the e-cars do 20 or 30 minutes with a battery change or will they thermal? What you said about tuning is true, and that's why I've always said at anything billed as a "fuel" race they should be separate. But I really like racing against them in the HARC races. And I think the what, top 9 cars in expert were nitro? Not seeing the big "advantage" the electric cars have.

+1 Phil. Anywhere, anytime, your place or mine. Who cares what you're driving? Did anyone miss JB winning the Mod CORR main with that dog slow Slash he was driving? Drivers win races, not cars.

Man, I flat HATE the idea of splitting the day up. Who gets the late shift so they can listen to their wife/SO griping about being there late?


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

I know I said I wouldn't chime in here, but I need some info from you E-guys:

can you purchase a battery that will allow you to run your truggy for a 15 minute main? 

The people that I talked to that ran out of power in the truggy main both told me that they knew they had cheap batteries and they knew they most likely couldn't finish.


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## Earl_Sparky (Jan 12, 2008)

The 1/8scale systems will thermal after 15min unless you spend a lot of time studying your gearing, voltage, EPA, punch control. It's too much for most sportsman drivers. Another real issue is cost. I switch batteries based on main run times. This weekend I got screwed because it was a 20min race. I was prepared for a 30min race. I had a battery that would have worked great for 20min race, but I didn't bring it. The A-mains need a set time limit so the electrics can build their system around that set time. I have about $2000 in batteries for all the different A-main times. That's just stupid. 

30min races in the expert class is fair because it takes 20-30sec for battery change compared to 4 nitro pit stops 4sec x 4 = 20sec. Also you must detune your elect motor so you don't thermal in 30min. It's very difficult to do. You truly have to be an expert class driver and electric turner to run against the Nitro for 30min.

In the end, I enjoy running against the Nitro, but it gets very expensive and complicated.
We need to limit the sportsman class races to 15min or create a new class based on the ROAR rules of 10min.


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## wily (Oct 14, 2005)

18 minutes running hard.....24 min conservative.


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## Earl_Sparky (Jan 12, 2008)

Courtney Vaughan said:


> I know I said I wouldn't chime in here, but I need some info from you E-guys:
> 
> can you purchase a battery that will allow you to run your truggy for a 15 minute main?
> 
> The people that I talked to that ran out of power in the truggy main both told me that they knew they had cheap batteries and they knew they most likely couldn't finish.


I don't think a fast driver can make a 15min Truggy main with two 7.4volt hard case batteries. That's why ROAR set the limit to 10min. Soon a lot of the drivers running the Slash will want to move up. This will allow them to use their existing batteries. I can barley make 15min with my 5s 4000mha in my Truggy.


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## kstoracing (Oct 30, 2008)

And you thought Nitro tuning was difficult. if you burn up and engine you can replace it for 200. You burn up an electric set up you're looking what 300 to 500. Brushless system and another decent battery?


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

kstoracing said:


> And you thought Nitro tuning was difficult. if you burn up and engine you can replace it for 200. You burn up an electric set up you're looking what 300 to 500. Brushless system and another decent battery?


lol yep you see we got our issues too! Its not all cake and candy for us. I mean we like it better but we have to plan stuff out or we are totally dead in the water. 3 sec vs 5 sec pit debate become a mute point.


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## rodgedaddy (Nov 11, 2008)

whoa, whoa, whoa!........we have gotten way off point with this. the bottom line is this, this past weekend i saw with my own two eyes electrics using reverse, and not making a 3 or 4 sec required pitt stop. all us nitro guys are asking is that you lock out your reverse and make your pitt. other than that, its all good! PERIOD!

"This is like deja vu all over again." - Yogi Berra


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## wily (Oct 14, 2005)

+1 rodge

i have no problem with that....i wanna run with the nitro guys anyway.


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## madf1man (Jan 28, 2005)

My truggy first time out with conservative gearing and temps staying below 150 went about 13 to 14 minutes in the main with 4S 5250 batts. Died in the final lap just shy of the finish! I think the guy that rammed me across the finish line at full speed was the guy I beat for that position! Forgot to thank him.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Earl_Sparky said:


> It's very difficult to do. You truly have to be an expert class driver and electric turner to run against the Nitro for 30min.
> 
> In the end, I enjoy running against the Nitro, but it gets very expensive and complicated.
> We need to limit the sportsman class races to 15min or create a new class based on the ROAR rules of 10min.


New convertees to electric sometimes still run their electrics cars like they did their gas cars with lots of bleaping of the trigger to play with the engagement of their clutch or for preventing their motor's throats from bogging up with gas on the low end. It becomes habititual. But heavy on off bleaping is a MAH guzzler compared to the smooth use of an electric powerband and people also need to adjust their driving not necessarily be super knowledgeable on fine electric tuning. Cuz heck I am not very knowledgeable, all my adjustments are default, but I last 20 min race easy cuz i cut the bleaping action out of my driving.

Ya rodge is right its all good. jsut need to dial out reverse, if you forget to take out reverse from practice and accidently double tap your brakes you will go backwards. And pitting is very true. CV will have firm rules soon.


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## Earl_Sparky (Jan 12, 2008)

rodgedaddy said:


> whoa, whoa........we have gotten way off point with this. the bottom line is this, this past weekend i saw with my own two eyes electrics using reverse, and not making a 3 or 4 sec required pitt stop. all us nitro guys are asking is that you lock out your reverse and make your pitt. other than that, its all good! PERIOD!
> 
> "This is like deja vu all over again." - Yogi Berra


We are not off point. There is more to it then just 3 or 4sec and reverse. Nitro racers just are not aware of the other side.


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## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

madf1man said:


> My truggy first time out with conservative gearing and temps staying below 150 went about 13 to 14 minutes in the main with 4S 5250 batts. Died in the final lap just shy of the finish! I think the guy that rammed me across the finish line at full speed was the guy I beat for that position! Forgot to thank him.


That was me, still have the Losi imprint in my front bumper. I drove my arse off in the truggy main and it was a tough climb from dead last to where I was hopefully finish where I hoped. But its all good, thats racing, it wasn't a money spot or was it?

I had a great time out there and enjoyed the added entries just need everyone to play by the rules, I love nitro it took me 10 motors 5 vehicles and 2 years to be consistant so lets just have fun playing fair. As for shorter mains I'm against it as a nitro guy thats the best part driving for 20-30 minutes and earn that 1 2 3 spot.


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## madf1man (Jan 28, 2005)

Well thank ya sir! I would have thanked ya then but you were PO'ed at the time! Not sure if it was a money spot, I never heard my name being invited upstairs.If it was and I get something I'll split it with ya! Did not even know they payed out at these races. For me its all about the fun anyways. Never felt the need to cheat with RC racin. Both my mains I pitted on the first or second lap. I was concerned about the other electrics not pitting and felt like some did not but in the heat of the moment its to hard to keep up with em all and no matter what the racing was still good.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

jasonwipf said:


> New convertees to electric sometimes still run their electrics cars like they did their gas cars with lots of bleaping of the trigger to play with the engagement of their clutch or for preventing their motor's throats from bogging up with gas on the low end. It becomes habititual. But heavy on off bleaping is a MAH guzzler compared to the smooth use of an electric powerband and people also need to adjust their driving not necessarily be super knowledgeable on fine electric tuning. Cuz heck I am not very knowledgeable, all my adjustments are default, but I last 20 min race easy cuz i cut the bleaping action out of my driving.
> 
> Ya rodge is right its all good. jsut need to dial out reverse, if you forget to take out reverse from practice and accidently double tap your brakes you will go backwards. And pitting is very true. CV will have firm rules soon.


Trust me, electric guys blip the throttle too! Just for different reasons.

:wink:


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## SwayOveride (Aug 12, 2004)

Gary said:


> Trust me, electric guys blip the throttle too! Just for different reasons.
> 
> :wink:


Sometimes those blips are to move people out of the way..... HEHE


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

SwayOveride said:


> Sometimes those blips are to move people out of the way..... HEHE


Only from the inside bro!


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

rodgedaddy said:


> whatever


From what I hear, most of the time you party too much to be a serious racer!


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## jason douget (Jun 15, 2009)

Earl_Sparky said:


> One issue that the Nitro guys don't understand is the rules ROAR is placing on the Electric Class. The 4s 14.8 volt limitation makes it very difficult for electric cars to run longer than 15min. But this also keeps it more economical.
> 
> Right now using the ROAR rules a 1/8 scale Buggy is really only good for 15mins.
> The 1/8 scale Truggy can only run 10min.
> ...


earl - i ran my car for 15 minutes with a 4 cell set up on 75%epa and had plenty of power left - and btw had my body not flown off I would have ben in first place for sportsman buggy this weekend - only beat by another electric - and yes, my pit guy lifts my car in the pits -sits it on the rail and then drops it and my reverse is locked out - i disagree strongly in splitting up the class - just look at rctech and the texas threads - look and see at all the lost interest in electric over nitro for onroad - if we are paying the same (sometimes more) as nitro guys for entry fees and cars, then may the best man win - i, fully understand that by owning an electric it becomes more difficult for anything past 15 minutes but that is like tuning a nitro, there is a skill to that and it can be done - also guys - electrics made up almost 70% of all 1/8 scale buggy sales since january this year from major manufacturers - everybody needs to get use to it - they are here to stay - and whoop a.. - btw, a mandatory lock out check for reverse should be required and if the class gets seperated, it will be a sad day in harc history, as CV says, THIS IS NOT ROAR and will never be -THANK GOD!!!!!!!!! I enjoy all of you guys and have a blast when I am racing you guys, hopefully soon I will move to expert and then it really wont matter because they arent complaining:cheers:


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## jason douget (Jun 15, 2009)

Courtney Vaughan said:


> I know I said I wouldn't chime in here, but I need some info from you E-guys:
> 
> can you purchase a battery that will allow you to run your truggy for a 15 minute main?
> 
> The people that I talked to that ran out of power in the truggy main both told me that they knew they had cheap batteries and they knew they most likely couldn't finish.


yes - our disadvantage will be lower epa settings on the throttle- nitros were eating me up on the back straight because of this - i beat them because i was more consistent and my line was tighter - 15 minutes is max n- the guys that ran out ran there epa around 90 to 100%. I spoke to a few of them when they asked how my car ran so consistent - i can go to 120% but chose 75% for the mains


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## jason douget (Jun 15, 2009)

*jason wipf*

BTW JASON, always a pleasure to race with you - congratulations on your win - i can tell that you have been practicing, i have too. I had a blast chasing you down from mid field in b main to 2 seconds behind you in a main made me feel pretty good - rest assure - next time we race, my body will be superglued on so i dont have to make a second pit stop - then you will feel the pressure of the purple bandit!!!!!! lol - anyway, lets all have fun


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## rodgedaddy (Nov 11, 2008)

Gary said:


> From what I hear, most of the time you party too much to be a serious racer!


hey dude, you don't know me! but if you do, why don't you put your arse where your mouth is and meet me at the track.


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## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

Gary said:


> From what I hear, most of the time you party too much to be a serious racer!


Rogers not the best racer but he's out there supporting the hobby and making it fun,....Why the personnel attack? Do you know him? Thats some serious trolling, this is the reason I stopped racing 20 years ago.


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## Quit Crying Go Green (Jun 15, 2009)

Hey Jason, did you make sure your radio was programmed to run that BL servo??? Mine was glitching as well but it was the other way around


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## mmorrow (Jan 18, 2009)

Biff I am not sure what you are getting at. Sounds like you are digging for problems to me. Why the personal attacks?
This is a discussion thread to make our hobby better. Is that what you are trying to do? Check yourself
And if someone is going to crack on someone they should at least know them and RACE with them.
I know you and I go way back, but you are out of line.


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## Quit Crying Go Green (Jun 15, 2009)

Sorry bout getting into the side of you on the mod Slash main Mark, I got loose outta the groove...it was nice racing with you guys tho!! it was my third race day and first HARC!! Gotta say I'm hooked


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## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

+1 Jason D


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

jason douget said:


> BTW JASON, always a pleasure to race with you - congratulations on your win - i can tell that you have been practicing, i have too. I had a blast chasing you down from mid field in b main to 2 seconds behind you in a main made me feel pretty good - rest assure - next time we race, my body will be superglued on so i dont have to make a second pit stop - then you will feel the pressure of the purple bandit!!!!!! lol - anyway, lets all have fun


lol I look forward to it buddy.


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## Tol Thomas (Feb 18, 2005)

Biff, not sure if rodgedaddy is Roger A. 

Mark, be cool, I think this is a mistaken identity thing going on with biff.


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## katjim00 (Jan 8, 2009)

WOW!!!!!

This is some of the best Oprah junk I have read in a long time.lol

They need to pit once in a 10 min race. Pick it up, set it down, and count out 3 mississippi, put the car down and let them rip. No need to have a pit gaurd on duty, people should be honest because at the end of the race they will know they cheated the rules set in place so they can race with more than 4 people.

CV races are won in the pits, the last worlds was won because the driver was able to make less pits. In club racing winning is not finishing 1st, its beating your buddy by 2 seconds.

Tol I think Gary knows that is not moocher Roger Ayers. Yes it was a personal attack which is kind of petty, just let it go.

Just remember folks that letting electric run with nitro in this early stage is totally in the favor of electric. Everyone is trying to race together and so certain rules must be used to keep it "fair". Follow the rules set up to keep it fair and everyone will be happy. Once electric grows this won't be an issue.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Sorry about that. Wrong guy. Sorry bro.


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## katjim00 (Jan 8, 2009)

I figured you knew Gary, lol guess I was wrong on that one


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## rodgedaddy (Nov 11, 2008)

don't worry about it, it's all good in the hood.

and like the one guy says, "we race toy cars for fun", or something like that.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Kill this thread.......new one started that finalizes this discussion.


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## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

Courtney Vaughan said:


> Kill this thread.......new one started that finalizes this discussion.


Well i could post a picture of me in a speed o...That should do it.lol


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

LOL.....yes, that would probably kill it!


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## captdave (Mar 18, 2005)

hay guys very very simple elc.v.s.elc.nitro v.s. nitro simple


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## jason douget (Jun 15, 2009)

*pm*



Quit Crying Go Green said:


> Hey Jason, did you make sure your radio was programmed to run that BL servo??? Mine was glitching as well but it was the other way around


cassidy u have pm - thanks for responding to that


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## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

rodgedaddy said:


> don't worry about it, it's all good in the hood.
> 
> and like the one guy says, "we race toy cars for fun", or something like that.


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## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

I think it's a Barry Baker quote. Something about racing toy cars for bowling trophies LOL.


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## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

cjtamu said:


> I think it's a Barry Baker quote. Something about racing toy cars for bowling trophies LOL.


Yep yep.


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## Guffinator (Aug 27, 2005)

cjtamu said:


> I think it's a Barry Baker quote. Something about racing toy cars for bowling trophies LOL.


I almost called 911 on him once, he tried to play basketball in the Texas heat. I thought homey was gonna stroke out.


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## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

Guffinator said:


> I almost called 911 on him once, he tried to play basketball in the Texas heat. I thought homey was gonna stroke out.


ha ha


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