# What would you do?



## Bayman

I was listening to the radio yesterday and a very good topic came up. The guy was talking about the two news crew guys that got kidnapped and were force, at gunpoint, to convert to Islam. I understand they were forced to renounce their faith in Jesus Christ and praise Allah, or whoever. I know the Bible says that this is a nono and you should stand by God and have faith in Jesus. 

I know it's hard to imagine, but this is a definite test of faith. What would you do?


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## Mrs Backlasher

I hope I never have to find out!

But the Apostle Peter crumbled when put to that test, also.


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## nativeaustinite

Peter denied Jesus not once, but three times.....He did not put another god before the one true God. That is what it appears to have happened to these poor souls. To renounce their God and claim worship of an idol. 
I am with Mrs. B.....I would prefer to not be put in this situation. I pray that I would hear "well done good and faithful servant" if in this situation.


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## StevePage

Just my $.02, but don't you think god knows what circumstance they are in? I think god would forgive them and understand that falsely denouncing him for self preservation was their only option. And as far as making them worship a false Idol, I beleive that the lord would forgive that too.


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## luv2fish

Its like that young lady at Columbine. I believe she said that she would not renounce our Lord. I pray that for my souls sake that i would stand firmly for my Lord Jesus Christ. And get to meet HIM.


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## SurfRunner

I hope I would stand firm in the situation. You never know what you would do until it happens though.

I have always felt that it would take the power of the Holy Spirit to do it - Not of ourselves. This is just a speculation.


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## rambler

Christians unfortunately used to do the same thing through out history.


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## activescrape

Her name was Cassie Bernal, Luv2fish. They asked her if she believed in God and "She Said Yes" is the name of the book about it. Immediately after she said it, they murdered her. 
I think most Christians in the same situation would instinctivey say yes.
However, if they gave you time to think about it and you knew they were deadly serious, and you rationalized that God would forgive you, and I think he would, then I think most of us would do whatever we could to survive. I would. 
God knows my heart, and he knows I worship him.


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## bluefin

Bayman,

That's a great question. I thought the same thing when I heard what they put those two through. I also hope that I could pass the test. But, here's one that's even harder: What if they threatened to shoot your friend if you didn't renounce? It's one thing to be in charge of your own life but another altogether if it's someone else's life. That question did sit with me awhile...


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## Guest

i hope i never get put in a situationlike that ,but i know if pray God would direct my path.


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## rvj

I also hope not to be put in that type of situation.

The Bible give us a great example of that type of situation. In the book of DANIEL chapter 3, Shadrack, Meshack, and Abed-nego, was put in that positon by Nebuchadnezzar. What a Great true story it is.


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## Bayman

I would hope to never be put in either of those situations.

I know that denouncing God is the one unforgivable sin and I hope that I would do the right thing if put in those situations. We read stories of people being kidnapped and holding close to the savior. Praying and confessing their faith to the kidnappers. There are cases where the kidnappers turned themselves in due to these actions, as what happened to the woman in Georgia. I think being held by Islamic Terrorist would be different though. Where as us as Christians are spreading the word and letting the world know that there is eternal life and the steps it takes to get there, the Islamic Extremest's are bent on eliminating anyone that doesn't believe as they do more than just delivering the word. That, I think is defining point. I was very suprised that the kidnappers of these news men opted to convert rather than kill, but it may have achieved the same result. These men may have lost their chance at eternel life with Jesus. That's for God to decide though.


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## activescrape

I don't think I agree with that. Any one is more than welcome to point out my error, but, those two newsmen didn't really convert. Do you think they will be on their knees 5 times today facing Mecca? I don't. They did what they needed to do to save their skins. They don't worship Allah now.
It is true, only God knows their heart and he is their only judge. I would assess the situation if I had time before I would decide what to do.

Think back to photos and videos of prisoners of war that have been paraded out and forced to admit they are spys, like a few downed pilots that come to mind. Everyone in their right mind knew that they were being coerced to say that and that they weren't sincere, just following a basic instinct, the survival instinct, that God gave them. Them saying they were spys didn't make them spys. 

And we all knew it and forgave them.


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## twitch-twitch-reel

Bayman said:


> I was listening to the radio yesterday and a very good topic came up. The guy was talking about the two news crew guys that got kidnapped and were force, at gunpoint, to convert to Islam. I understand they you do?


well if you remember mr. shadrack, meshak and abendago we ask to only take a pinch of insents and throw it into a fire at the statue base.

you can kill me before I will renounce Jesus or God. God is in controle at ALL times and I will not end up in that suitation without him knowing about it and he knows I will stand for what I know. So I would have been excuted. Everyone I love would have been left here to fend for themselves but knowing this, I would still stand for God. Never will I renounce The king! ISLAM IS DEAD! JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY!

I am not willing to take a chance on my place in heaven. It may only be a small thing but it seems a little silly to believe in somthing that so many people have died for and not be willing to die for it yourself.

I would rather loose my life and be sure that save it and wonder the rest of my life.


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## Mrs Backlasher

"Never will I renounce The king!"

If I remember correctly, Peter said something *similar* prior to the day he denied that he knew Jesus.

I don't think we know for sure WHAT we will do until we are faced with a particular situation.


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## twitch-twitch-reel

well I believe if you don't know now you won't know then. it is just my stand but in my mind, why believe in a faith that so many people died for if you aren't willing to die for it yourself.

deny me and i will deny you. that is what pops up in my head and like I said before, I would rather be safe than sorry. 

there is only one sin that we are told is unforgiviable, I couldn't define what it is for you but I don't think this is one I would want to push my luck on. 

would it be hard, YES! and it would suck greatly to have to go through that! but I would have to say that given the choice I would welcome death.

am I willing to die or watch my family die for what I believe. yes I believe so.


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## twitch-twitch-reel

In God We Trust.


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## Bayman

> But, here's one that's even harder: What if they threatened to shoot your friend if you didn't renounce? It's one thing to be in charge of your own life but another altogether if it's someone else's life


I believe the Bible gives us our answer. Read the story about Abraham and Isaac. It's the ultimate example of faith.


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## JHooks

_32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven._

The point being made about Peter having denied Jesus, doesn't really fit as our example.
Peter at the time that he denied Jesus, was NOT a born-again man. Jesus had not yet gone to the cross, died for our sins, and was not yet resurrected. But *we* as born-again people having the spirit of God living in us, are expected to endure to the end.

*Rev 2:10* _....Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. _
_11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."' _

_*Mathew 16:25* For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it._
If you will note, Peter in the Book of Acts after having been born-again and receiving the Holy Spirit, did not ever deny Him again. Peter even died for Him. So the thing to consider is this.....Once we have received Him as Saviour and have received His Holy Spirit.....we should have the same *power* to endure as the apostles did.

*2Timothy 2:11*_ This is a faithful saying: _

_For if we died with Him,_
_We shall also live with Him._
_12 If we endure, _
_We shall also reign with Him._
_If we deny Him,_
_He also will deny us. _

This is by no means an attempt to make anyone feel condemned. I pray that I have that same faith as the apostles did, in not denying Him even when faced with death.

I am just answering with scripture. And a few lines of commentary. I beleive that if we deny Him, we will be denied by Him. Just as the scripture reads. So I am with Twitch, on the thoughts that I hope I am never put in that situation,......but if I am I pray to God I WILL have the strength and faith to STAND!!!! Let God's Word do the convincing, not mans opinions.

Have a blessed day


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## rvj

JHooks said:


> _32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven._
> 
> The point being made about Peter having denied Jesus, doesn't really fit as our example.
> Peter at the time that he denied Jesus, was NOT a born-again man. Jesus had not yet gone to the cross, died for our sins, and was not yet resurrected. But *we* as born-again people having the spirit of God living in us, are expected to endure to the end.
> 
> *Rev 2:10* _....Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. _
> _11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."' _
> 
> _*Mathew 16:25* For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it._
> If you will note, Peter in the Book of Acts after having been born-again and receiving the Holy Spirit, did not ever deny Him again. Peter even died for Him. So the thing to consider is this.....Once we have received Him as Saviour and have received His Holy Spirit.....we should have the same *power* to endure as the apostles did.
> 
> *2Timothy 2:11*_ This is a faithful saying: _
> 
> _For if we died with Him,_
> _We shall also live with Him._
> _12 If we endure, _
> _We shall also reign with Him._
> _If we deny Him,_
> _He also will deny us. _
> 
> This is by no means an attempt to make anyone feel condemned. I pray that I have that same faith as the apostles did, in not denying Him even when faced with death.
> 
> I am just answering with scripture. And a few lines of commentary. I beleive that if we deny Him, we will be denied by Him. Just as the scripture reads. So I am with Twitch, on the thoughts that I hope I am never put in that situation,......but if I am I pray to God I WILL have the strength and faith to STAND!!!! Let God's Word do the convincing, not mans opinions.
> 
> Have a blessed day


The first part of ROMANS chp4 v3,Paul says WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY? Good post JHOOKS...


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## activescrape

Yes, good posts. 

Peter was not born again at the time he denied Jesus, true. But he was obviously forgiven for denying Jesus. 

Do you think all the disciples were born again the instant Jesus died? I have never even thought about that.


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## twitch-twitch-reel

*Yha!*

Yha!


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## JHooks

activescrape said:


> Yes, good posts.
> 
> Do you think all the disciples were born again the instant Jesus died? I have never even thought about that.


Not the instant He died, but 3 days later, as He was resurrected, so were all who believed in Him at that time, as well as all who have come to believe in & receive Him since.

_*John20:19- 20* When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 
21 So Jesus said to them again, *"Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. *23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are _
_retained._

Jesus conquered death, hell and the grave, and was ressurrected. So were all who believe in Him. As paul said in colossians...._If you then being *raised with Christ*....._As Jesus was ressurrected, so was everyone who believed, as well as everyone who came to believe afterwards. Right down to us.


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## WAHOO-YAHOO

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego come to mind. Daniel comes to mind. we don't know what the Lord's will is, but we know that those who have refused to deny the One True God, who stood upon faith in the Lord, were delivered.
I see it as a no loose situation. Profess my faith and dedication to Jesus Christ in the face of certain death and either (1) Be immediately with my Lord in paradise for eternity, or (2) see the miracle of the hand of Jesus deliver me from my enemies and see them fall on their face and cry out to the Lord.

I will answer for all of my life one day. Denouncing Jesus is not something I want to answer for.



> Mark8:35
> 35For whoever wants to save his [[a]higher, spiritual, eternal] life, will lose it [the [b]lower, natural, temporal life [c]which is lived only on earth]; and whoever gives up his life [which is lived only on earth] for My sake and the Gospel's will save it [his [d]higher, spiritual life [e]in the eternal kingdom of God].


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## WAHOO-YAHOO

I'm not trying to upset anyone or make any enemies, but I'm a little troubled by some of the responses to this question. 

If a man had a knife to your throat and demanded that you denounce Jesus and praise another, or choose death, it would no doubt be the biggest question you'd ever answer in your life. How could we as Christians, for a moment, even think of denouncing the Lord Jesus Christ, the One who gave his life so that we would have life? Denounce His unmerrited, perfect, grace? NEVER! Discount His unending power? Never! Throw away His awesome mercy? Never!
Without his blessing upon you at that moment, would you believe that that man wouldn't cut your throat anyway? Then what? Would you expect His grace to forgive you as you took your last breath after you denied Him?

The entire New Testament's context is "faith in Christ"...unwaivering faith. 

That mans voice may be the last mortal words I hear, but the next voice I'd hear would be as beautiful as a glorious symphony saying, Well done, good and faithful servant. welcome to the Kingdom of Heaven.

God Bless,
Erik


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## activescrape

I believe I need to to some meditating on this one. I will say I am not afraid to die for my belief. I also believe we will be judged by what is in our heart, and God knows what that is and he is the judge. I will not argue with scripture, I believe it.

With that said, why do you think God forgave Peter for doing this very thing, not once, but three times? Could it be because he knew in his heart Jesus was the son of the living God in spite of what he said in a moment of fear?


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## twitch-twitch-reel

ok but was Peter denying Jesus was the christ or that God was God or was Peter denying that he was a deciple of Jesus and that he was no a friend of Jesus. Best I could tell he was denying assocation to Jesus not the fact he was the christ. If that is ture then we are looking a apples and oranges.


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## JHooks

As mentioned before, Peter was NOT YET a renewed man. Not yet born-again. 
(*1Peter1:23* having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever...)

He was still spititually dead, and did not have the life of God in him. So he (at that time, regarding the topic we are discussing) is not our example . Was he forgiven? Yes. But then *ALL* sins regardless of their nature that were commited *before* Jesus went to the cross were forgiven! Also all sin commited *before* a person has made Jesus the Lord of their lifes are forgiven. 
The question originally asked here was, What would YOU do??? Well, are YOU born again as the bible says? If so, then you are in Christ, and He in you. So we have different circumstances as believers now, than Peter had before Jesus went to the cross.

There are people who were satanist, and worshipers of demons before receiving Jesus as their saviour and all is forgiven them, because they commited the sins in their un-renewed state of being. That *IS* the key here. Once You are in Christ and He in you, there* is* sin that is unpardonable. 
*Mark 3:28* "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"-

I know there are different theories as to WHAT that scripture is referring to, but I would rather err on the side of caution, (specially in light of the other scriptures that state....."if you deny Me, I will deny you to my Father"....

God has *ALWAYS *taken VERY seriously those who deny Him, and don't stand in faith!

I'm not trying to convince you or myself for that matter with my words, I am going to HIS Word and seeing what he says about it.

Would you really deny Jesus, and in doing so,....value YOUR OWN life more valuable than His??? He gave His life for us when we were yet sinners! Would you really deny Him, your glorious saviour who died for you? 
People die for Him, and the words of their testimony every day, right now in this world! There are countries right now that are being reached with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and people are being born-again by the thousands. In many of these countries they are tortured and killed, for their confession. Believe me, they take it very seriously.

I think here in the western world we have become stagnant, and lukewarm in may ways. We take our faith for granted, and have lost our ZEAL for God.

I pray that by some of these things that we are beginning to see within other countries, that we will open our hearts for the fire of the Holy Spirit to consume us again! That He will bring back the joy of our salvation, so that we no longer take Him and His sacrifice for granted.

I am not condemning anyone in this at all. I am stating these things for my own good too. I think we all need to be encouraged to evaluate our relationship with God every now and then. To see if there are areas in which we have become lukewarm, or that just need to be brought to light, so that we can correct them.

http://www.bibleleague.org/persecuted/index.php
http://www.harvestnowinc.org/default.asp

God bless


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## twitch-twitch-reel

2Rouse yourselves and keep awake, and strengthen and invigorate what remains and is on the point of dying; for I have not found a thing that you have done [any work of yours] meeting the requirements of My God or perfect in His sight.

3So call to mind the lessons you received and heard; continually lay them to heart and obey them, and repent. In case you will not rouse yourselves and keep awake and watch, I will come upon you like a thief, and you will not know or suspect at what hour I will come.


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## activescrape

Great input guys.


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## Bayman

JHooks, you hit the nail on the head. I too believe we have lost our zeal for God in this country. I believe the founding fathers are rolling over in their graves because of some of the things that happen now days. Look what has changed during my lifetime and I am guilty of falling too. Cursing on TV, sex on TV, the elimination of God in our classrooms and basically in our entire public life. Not to mention the gay debate or abortion. The Christians in the west are looked at like fanatics. If you say anything against the mainstream you are labeled with names like the Religous Right, Right Wing Extremist, Religous Zealots. Just doing what I believe is what our fore fathers would have done.

Sometimes I wonder how it would be if we as Christians were as zealous as the Muslims. All of us praying 6 times a day. Willing to give our lives freely in the name of our God. Our faith guiding everything in our world. As much as I try, I still faulter.


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## Mrs Backlasher

I dunno folks, it goes back to the "once saved always saved" debate.

I sense a spirit of confrontation, judgment and condemnation here. A sense of "my faith is stronger, better, more real... (whatever) than your faith." These things ought not so to be. 

Those who do not know Jesus will know we are Christians NOT because of our more excellent theology... NOT because of our ability to quote scripture... NOT because of our ability to debate our point of view... etc. They'll know we are Christians by our love for one another. They'll know we are Christians by our teachable, moldable spirit. They'll know we are Christians by our calm and gentle spirit that is easy to be entreatied.

Jesus told us not to plan ahead what we will say if we are confronted and threatened, but that the Holy Spirit would give us the words at that time. That's good enough for me.


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## JHooks

Bayman said:


> Sometimes I wonder how it would be if we as Christians were as zealous as the Muslims. All of us praying 6 times a day. Willing to give our lives freely in the name of our God. Our faith guiding everything in our world. As much as I try, I still faulter.


I had the same thoughts as I was posting earlier. The muslim zealots are more than willing to die for their god. 
If indeed our lives are our testimony, then what kind of testimony are we if we could deny our God & Saviour? By denying Him, and bowing to another god, what is our witness to people who are lost? We could be the cause for someone to reject the gospel, and go to hell. That is the weight that is on us. But as God's Word says....."to whom much is given, much is required".

Somewhere along the way, we as The Church, have fallen in our duty to be Watchmen. And in doing so, we have allowed our society to be filled ungodly ways. The population in general have become de-sensitised to alot of it. To where now, we can tolerate it in our very own homes. I am not throwing anyone under the bus on this, because I have not been faultless either. However, I am waking up now and beginning to make a change in my own life. Once I get my own life in "His" order and with His help, then I can take it out and spread it from there. We can each make an affect on the world around us. But we have to be willing to stand for righteousness, even when it's not the "popular" thing to do.


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## KSims1868

What I say out LOUD and what I pray for internally can be (and would be) *VERY* different things.

My Lord Jesus Christ would know what I was doing. I would not be denouncing him as my Savior, but I would lie to my captors. I would later on pray for forgiveness...as I know that to lie is also a sin.

Truth be told...I'd probably be transparent in my ploy though and killed anyways.

As to The Church having "fallen"...I can't agree with you more. In fact...The Church has fallen in MANY more ways then just as "Watchmen". The Church has fallen to a level where many people (myself included) have lost our trust in Organized Religion, and I prefer to pursue my Christian beliefs on my own. My family is raised in a Christian house hold. We pray (very often) and believe in the Bible and it's teachings. We're just not participating in any public church these days...and we do miss it. Maybe one day we'll return, but for now we're keeping our faith in OUR way.


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## JHooks

Not a confrontation Mrs B, but a challenge to each of us, *including myself* to consider our lives as a witness to the world.

Paul was very zealous, and exhorted excellence in the faith, as well as love. Love is the foundation that it is ALL built on. And I know for myself as I have stated, that I am not perfect either. Nor am I condemning anyone. I need to hear these things too. We are to edify each other in the faith, and exhort one another to go even further in God, to build our faith more and more. Because the truth is, someday it could very well come to that. No one knows, so it is something that should be considered.

If I have offended anyone, then please forgive me. As stated before, I pray that I would have the faith to stand if I were placed in that situation. Because I beleive, according to scripture that my eternal life "may" very well depend on it.

Don't believe me or anyone else, but go to scripture and let God's word be the final authority. And pray about it, and see what the Spirit of God reveals to you.

*James 1:5* If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.


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## twitch-twitch-reel

if you don't know now you won't know then.


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## InfamousJ

Based on my what I understand, I'd of probably told them I do not worship a pig like Allah, no thanks.  Many people are going to have to make this same choice one day in whether they will take the mark of the beast or die.


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## WAHOO-YAHOO

> Matthew 10:33
> 
> 33But whoever denies and disowns Me before men, I also will deny and disown him before My Father Who is in heaven.


Remember that when Shedach, Meshak and Abednego refused to worsh the golden idol?



> 14[Then] Nebuchadnezzar said to them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image which I have set up?
> 
> 15Now if you are ready when you hear the sound of the horn, pipe, lyre, trigon, harp, dulcimer or bagpipe, and every kind of music to fall down and worship the image which I have made, very good. But if you do not worship, you shall be cast at once into the midst of a burning fiery furnace, and who is that god who can deliver you out of my hands?
> 
> 16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, it is not necessary for us to answer you on this point.
> 
> 17If our God Whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, He will deliver us out of your hand, O king.
> 
> 18But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up!(A)
> 
> 19Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury and his facial expression was changed [to antagonism] against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Therefore he commanded that the furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was usually heated.
> 
> 20And he commanded the strongest men in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
> 
> 21Then these [three] men were bound in their cloaks, their tunics or undergarments, their turbans, and their other clothing, and they were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
> 
> 22Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent and the furnace exceedingly hot, the flame and sparks from the fire killed those men who handled Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
> 
> 23And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the burning fiery furnace.
> 
> 24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king [saw and] was astounded, and he jumped up and said to his counselors, Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered, True, O king.
> 
> 25He answered, Behold, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt! And the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods!(B)
> 
> 26Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, you servants of the Most High God, come out and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego came out from the midst of the fire.
> 
> 27And the satraps, the deputies, the governors, and the king's counselors gathered around together and saw these men--that the fire had no power upon their bodies, nor was the hair of their head singed; neither were their garments scorched or changed in color or condition, nor had even the smell of smoke clung to them. 28Then Nebuchadnezzar said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, Who has sent His angel and delivered His servants who believed in, trusted in, and relied on Him! And they set aside the king's command and yielded their bodies rather than serve or worship any god except their own God.


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## SurfRunner

Mrs Backlasher said:


> I dunno folks, it goes back to the "once saved always saved" debate.
> 
> I sense a spirit of confrontation, judgment and condemnation here. A sense of "my faith is stronger, better, more real... (whatever) than your faith." These things ought not so to be.
> 
> Those who do not know Jesus will know we are Christians NOT because of our more excellent theology... NOT because of our ability to quote scripture... NOT because of our ability to debate our point of view... etc. They'll know we are Christians by our love for one another. They'll know we are Christians by our teachable, moldable spirit. They'll know we are Christians by our calm and gentle spirit that is easy to be entreatied.
> 
> Jesus told us not to plan ahead what we will say if we are confronted and threatened, but that the Holy Spirit would give us the words at that time. That's good enough for me.


I think your right Mrs. B.

I used to be the first one to say I would do this and I would do that for the Lord regardless, but through years of trials and tribulations I realized I was speaking in the flesh. No reliance on the Holy Spirit at all. I thought I was in His power, but I wasn't.....I used to use a lot of scripture to argue a point, but eventually, God showed me I was like the Pharisees. I knew the Scriptures more than I knew Him. Jesus is personal.

The Holy Spirit strengthens those who need it. He gives grace to the humble and gives strength to those who are weak.

In fact, I don't think any Christian would stand the test of martyrdom unless they first saw their own potential to turn and run away from it.

May I humbly and gently say, several of you, if not most, who are saying you would confess Jesus as your Lord to an executioner, will be the first ones to run.


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## SurfRunner

I also believe we need more zeal for God in our country. I may be wrong, but I don't think we are going to get it until we begin to face some major persecution. I think that is why the muslims draw closer to their god. They know what persecution is.....In America, we don't.

We American Christians think a bad day is when it rains on us on the way to Church. I do not think we will truly see this weakness in our hearts untill God allows some bad things to happen to us first. We have been blessed by our Lord to live here in our great country, but, we have gotten fat and spoiled too.


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## twitch-twitch-reel

InfamousJ said:


> Based on my what I understand, I'd of probably told them I do not worship a pig like Allah, no thanks.  Many people are going to have to make this same choice one day in whether they will take the mark of the beast or die.


na, won't be here then according to tim lahay. LOL


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## twitch-twitch-reel

Remember when soloman the wisest king to ever live started marrying other wives that he should have had nothing to do with and the slowly their gods became his gods? Well brace yourself. That is what is happening to America. We have managed to raise a generation of men and women who have not been exposed to the bible in the least bit and don't care to hear about a God who says what they do is a sin! They want a easy going easy to follow your not a sinner religion, and you know what there will be someone to give it to them because where there is a demand there is $$$$$! 



I will say this, I have watched Joel Osteen "spelling" every Sunday morning for the last year and any other time I catch him on. I have never once heard him talk about the blood of Christ, Hell, or the wages of sin. I rarely here him quote scripture to be frank about it. I always here people at work say O I love watching him. He makes me feel good about my self, That's all great but if there is no conviction to change the what is the point? Just like this subject we are discussing here. Deny God and live. I was floored by how many "professed Christians" said that it was no big deal. Just say what you need to stay alive. I believe this comes from not knowing the scriptures and not spending time with God. We take God out of school and out of the work place and even out of the court system and then we add to this an absolutely corrupt and sin filled diet of tv. 



What result did you expect?


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## Bayman

I agree TTR. The word of God has left the building, or has been split into ten thousand interpretations. What is it about "Deny me and I will deny you" that people don't understand? It would probably be the hardest thing I ever did and I hope it never comes to that. I too listen to Joel Osteen and think he is a very good speaker, but he leaves the Bilbe at the door before he gets on stage for the cameras.


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## SurfRunner

TTR and Bayman,

You guys have a sweet passion to see people submitting themselves to God and His Word. That is a good thing and the Body needs Brothers like you. 

May I suggest you take your petitions to your prayer closet. You will see more hearts changed through that vs. takng them to this forum.


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## twitch-twitch-reel

Surfrunner Your right, & I have spent many hours on my knees praying not just for this but for a clear understanding of what God wants me to do about it if anything. I see people sitting on the fence twisting the facts and my reaction is to say something but the truth is I am only going to be held in account for one and that is me. I need to focus on what I am doing and what MY familey is doing and stop worring about that groop of people called "other people". The truth is if I don't care for a program I can turn it off. the fact still remains it just isn't being pointed out by a fishy smelling guy.


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## Mrs Backlasher

Amen, SurfRunner. We are to be prayer warriors, binding the powers of the devil, rebuking his hold over individuals and our nation.

TTR said: "We have managed to raise a generation of men and women who have not been exposed to the bible in the least bit and don't care to hear about a God who says what they do is a sin!"

Part of the problem of this generation without knowledge of the Bible and knowledge of Jesus is that INTELLECT has become their god. REASONING reigns. They seem to believe that their thoughts and their words are as good as the words written by men in the Bible thousands of years ago.

We cannot find and worship God through intellect and reasoning. He is a spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. We must become CONNECTED to God through the conduit of Jesus Christ. He is the gateway, our entrance.

*There is a veil over their hearts that only Jesus can remove. *So we need to be about the business of prayer on behalf of those who have not yet met Jesus.

If you want a real blessing, read the "Daily Manna" thread for today posted by ComeFrom?. It talks about that veil over people's hearts. Here's the link:
http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=86411


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## TXPalerider

This has been an interesting read. Very thought provoking. Thanks Guys.

All I will say is, I hope if the day comes that I am placed in a similar circumstance I will stand up for my Lord and not lie and renounce him to save my earthly skin. However, as Mrs. B said, I will look to the Holy Spirit to give me the words needed at the time.

The fact is, if someone as dedicated and convicted as Mrs. B cannot be sure, I'm not 100% sure I could say I am either.

Carry on.........


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## WAHOO-YAHOO

We all better get sure of what we'd do. I certainly would not want to be in that position, but rest assured, I believe the promises of God. He walked through the fire with them. He delivered Daniel through the lion's den, not around it. The Word of God say's he will deny me if I deny Him. He also said I would have life eternal with Him if I didn't savor and cling to this one. He's never lied and this particular scripture is not ambiguous in the least.

God bless you all,
Erik


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## Bayman

Amen Surf Runner! I haven't been a part of this forum very long, but have been a Christian for many years. I may not have been the best Christian for all these years either. I find that being able to communicate with my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ increases my zeal for God. I am not perfect and don't pretend to be. I have learned by reading this forum. 

When I became a Christian I had a wonderful feeling. It's hard to describe, but I'm sure everyone go's through it. A large burden was lifted off of me and it felt great. Through the years I've lost that feeling. I want to get it back! I've prayed about it over and over. This forum, in some ways, gives me that feeling again. I want to thank all of you for that.


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## Mrs Backlasher

Bayman said:


> Amen Surf Runner! I haven't been a part of this forum very long, but have been a Christian for many years. I may not have been the best Christian for all these years either. I find that being able to communicate with my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ increases my zeal for God. I am not perfect and don't pretend to be. I have learned by reading this forum.
> 
> When I became a Christian I had a wonderful feeling. It's hard to describe, but I'm sure everyone go's through it. A large burden was lifted off of me and it felt great. Through the years I've lost that feeling. I want to get it back! I've prayed about it over and over. This forum, in some ways, gives me that feeling again. I want to thank all of you for that.


Bayman,

Each of us is a "work in progress" in our Christian walk of faith. Those feelings come and go, and we can't depend on them.

Our relationship to God through Jesus is similar to marriage. We're so in love and excited about our spouse during the newlywed stage. But after years together our love matures and settles into an enduring, confident and peaceful experience.

I love my husband even when I don't see him. I love him even when I'm not thinking about him. And I trust him completely. Part of the reason I trust him completely is based on previous experiences with him through the years. Our experiences with God build that kind of faith and trust, too.

Like a spouse, the Holy Spirit has a way of "nagging" us when something is amiss. Then it's time to sit in a quiet room, read the Bible, and let God talk to us. Ask the Spirit to be a searchlight on your heart, revealing areas of neglect, inattention, or downright rebellion to God's will. Ask God if there is an area of your life where he wants you to be more Christ-like.

These private moments with God edify (build up) our fellowship with him and strengthen our love and faith in him. Yes, and they even stir up our emotions and those "forgotten" feelings. Sometimes (but very rarely) I have even experienced a subtle refreshing fragrance from being in his presence.

Feelings are nice, but not mandatory. Obedience is the prerequisite that increases our faith, trust, peace and love of God.


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## rambler

*they didn't raise themselves or did they?*

This new generation of sinners did not raise themselves. At some point I understand you have to become accountable for your own actions. But on some level, a big level actually, the last generation of parents is responsible for the next generation. Additionally, each generation probably since the beginning of time thinks that kind of stuff about the next generation.


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## Bayman

Very good explanation Mrs. B. I never really thought about it that way.


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## TXPalerider

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mrs Backlasher again.


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## luv2fish

Thanks Ms B and ALL of you others. Praise God that we are able to share scripture and our personal testimonies with others. i know i need you all and the things that WE share.


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## Hooked Up

This is the most thought provoking thread I have ever read here or anywhere else. Something just struck me like a lightning bolt! I'm reluctant to share this in open forum yet I know I must. I see scientists and theologists arguing all of the time and yet to me, they are saying the same thing and dont realize it. Scientists and physicists like to speak of "energy" and the likes. We like to speak of the "spirit". I believe they are one in the same. For example; there is only one "me". When my body dies "me" will not / can not simply go away. My spirit will live on. We've been taught that "energy" can not simply go away, it can only change form. Can you see where I am going with this? As Christians we are taught (and believe) that the "me" in us never dies. I get great comfort from that and I too, look forward to meeting the Lord someday. We are also taught that we are bound by our flesh. Hard to argue that with any degree of honesty. Face it, I want to LIVE. "I" want to live long enough to walk my daughters down the aisle and play with my grandbabies! But that is "my" will. I dont know what His will for me is so I have to "trust". OK, I've got a knife to my throat and am face to face with the most horrible decision I can imagine. My macho / Christian / in the flesh voice would like to say that I would tell the infidel about my Lord and not waiver even a little. Man, that feels good doesn't it? When I get "real honest" with myself I have to admit that I quite often put my wife and children in front of my faith in God. A sin? I would have to say, yes. God knows I am a sinner. He knew it before I was even conceived. I love the Lord and I love my family. I wont lie to you and tell you I know what I would do. All I can do is stand in Faith and ask God to be patient with me as I try to grow in His word and Grace. Thanks for the fellowship y'all. I get so much out of this forum. God bless you ALL, Guy


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## SurfRunner

WAHOO-YAHOO said:


> We all better get sure of what we'd do. I certainly would not want to be in that position, but rest assured, I believe the promises of God. He walked through the fire with them. He delivered Daniel through the lion's den, not around it. The Word of God say's he will deny me if I deny Him. He also said I would have life eternal with Him if I didn't savor and cling to this one. He's never lied and this particular scripture is not ambiguous in the least.
> 
> God bless you all,
> Erik


Thanks for redirecting us. I agree with you 100% with what the Word says. We cannot ignore a single word in His Word.

We have only talked about being executed vs. denying Christ. WE have to remember that should not be the focus. The focus should be knowing Jesus. If we know Him, He will see us through it. It will be the strength of the Holy Spirit (The Comforter) that will get us through. Not of ourselves.

This scares a lot of people who know Him and they feel insecure - I do. But, its OK. Father God understands that. He is not going to look down at us ready to strike us to Hell if we do not do our good deed. He will provide strngth when the time comes.

Something to think about; there will be martyrs who do not know Jesus. There is a fine line between trying to appease an angry god vs. doing it because He first loved us. I am sure many will be martyred because that is their "good work" that will get them in Heaven ( they think). Martyrdom does not save a soul - The Love of Jesus does. We repent of sin becaus of His Love for us (Romans).

Personally, I think when persecution comes, being martyred for Jesus will be easy compared to what will really happen. What I mean is, they will also grab your child, wife, or parent and tell you they are going to execute them if you do not deny Him. Think to yourself, what will you do then?

I believe I will stand in persecution only because the Holy Spirit will intervine and be my source of strength - a strength that is totally outside of myself. Otherwise, I can't do it.


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## luv2fish

Amen


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