# 1/8th Brushless Motor thread



## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Thought I'd start a thread where we E guys can talk about motors. What to buy, what KV, known issues etc.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

*CASTLE CREATION BEARINGS*

I'll start off with an observation on Castle motors. Between Willy and I we have 8 Castle motors running in our various cars and while they have been great motors we have blown front bearings on about 5 of them so far. 2 or 3 other castle motor users we know of have as well. And while if you install the pinions and/or the mesh wrong you are asking for busted bearings to happen fast, we have busted them on good meshed setups. :hairout:

Now while most r/c applications you do not need above an ABEC 3 rated bearing (quality of bearing rate from ABEC 1, 3, 5, 7 & 9 where higher is better quality) we have found in BL motors it matters to use a higher rated bearing. After a recent chat with Tekin about their motors a tech there told me they put ABEC 7 bearings in their motors and I have not heard of any bearings blowing out on them, if so its been minuet to unheard of. But Castle lists their bearings at only an ABEC 1. So with several castle bearings blowing out at ABEC 1 and little to none blowing out on Tekin's with an ABEC 7 looks like it would not be a bad idea to replace your Castle bearings with ABEC 5 or 7 bearings if you dont want a blow out some time in the future. Our castle blow outs were in motors 4-8 months old where no maintenance had been done on them and no rear bearing blow outs (probably due to less stress on that end and little to no dirt getting in them as they are usually covered and unexposed)

When I used to skate alot as a teen I could feel a massive difference on my feet and between low and high quality bearings. ABEC1s you heard all kinds of clanking and wheel noise, ABEC 3s were smooth and hardly any noise, and ABEC 5s you felt like you were skating on air. angelsm

It is common practice to clean out your BL bearings every 6 months regardless and put bearing oil in them as a matter of good maintenance. Use a bearing blaster and/or electric/nitro motor cleaner to get in there flush out any old oil/grease & dirt. I like the synthetic oil that bonds to metal on a micro level for longer protection. So, bottom line is if you got a Castle motor with stock ABEC 1 bearings, clean them out every 4 months IMO and if you use ABEC 5 + you can probably go to 6 months between cleaning and reoiling. Then it might be a good idea to replace at about your 3rd cycle OR if you feel ANY side to side jiggling of the rotor due to loose or worn bearing balls. Rear bearings could probably go twice as long between maintenance, but why risk it. Hope that helps some of you avoid a blow out.


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## darrenwilliams (Apr 21, 2008)

I used to skate and the beraing rating made all the difference in the world.


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## B4Maz (Aug 9, 2009)

These are good observations Jason. What size bearings do the Tekin and Castle use? 5x10? Who sells bearings ABEC 5+?


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Castle has 5x16x5 front and back, and tekins have 5x16x5 front and 5x11x5 back. There are sorta hard to find. I got some from tekin direct that I'll just use in both my tekins and castle motors.


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## JANKEII (Feb 2, 2006)

Rubber or metal bearing?


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## wily (Oct 14, 2005)

JANKEII said:


> Rubber or metal bearing?


Metal shielded


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## darrenwilliams (Apr 21, 2008)

A little off subject but does anyone know the abec rating on the avid bearings we all use on the chassis?


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

darrenwilliams said:


> A little off subject but does anyone know the abec rating on the avid bearings we all use on the chassis?


I do not know. DAVID? you out there?

Also, while I know the higher you go up in ABEC rating the closer all the tolerances are on the bearings, does that also mean the gap between the metal shield and the inner ring is smaller and tighter necessarily? The gap where dirt sneaks in.

If a higher ABEC rating was closer and let less dirt in that might be worth getting a tad more dirt protection and last longer. Also we all know small dirt particles are everywhere including the mouth or crack where that shield meets the lower ring. Are we blowing dirt into our bearings when we blast them with 100mph wind at the compressor station???


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## Ducatibilt (Jul 8, 2010)

I was just looking up info on bearings for work this morning and since I'm a copy and past pro.

From Avids web site support:
*Does ABEC rating mean everything?*

In some industries the answer is yes, but in RC it definately is not. Due to the tight tolerances of an ABEC7/ISO4 bearing, testing has revealed that normal amounts of dust destroy the bearing quicky when entering the tight grooves of the bearing. Our testing has proven that with our manufacturer, ABEC3/5's provide the best performance per cost value

From wiki:

*The ABEC scale is an industry accepted standard for the tolerances of a ball bearing. It was developed by the Annular Bearing Engineering Committee (ABEC) of the American Bearing Manufacturers Association (ABMA). There are five classes, going from widest tolerances to tightest: 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9. Higher ABEC classes provide better precision, efficiency,[citation needed] and greater speed capabilities, but does not make the components spin faster.[1] However, the ABEC rating does not specify many other critical factors, such as smoothness of the rolling contact surfaces, ball precision, and material quality.*

There are no required materials in the ABEC grades. Bearings not conforming to at least ABEC 1 are not precision bearings.[_dubious - discuss_]
The scale is designed to allow a user to make an informed decision about the type of bearing they are purchasing. High rated bearings are intended for precision applications like aircraft instruments or surgical equipment. Lower grades are intended for the vast majority of applications such as vehicles, mechanical hobbies, skates, fishing reels and industrial machinery. High ABEC rated bearings allow optimal performance of critical applications requiring very high RPM and smooth operation.
ISO's equivalent standard is ISO 492


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks Duca, So avid is ABEC3 or 5 then.


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## Verti goat (Jun 16, 2009)

Nice info Damon! Greenies for your research!


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## jep527 (Jun 19, 2009)

muchmore ultra hi rpm fans works well in cooling your motor or esc. the castle fan sucks and make sure your body has plenty of holes for good air flow. tie wrap your esc down so the top want pop off.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Ya body air flow is mega important. Even the fastest fans only push 5-7mph of air. Our cars avg. 15-22mph of speed so thats eminently more important IMO (use the cars inertia to your advantage). 

I like the fans at buyextras.com cuz they have ball bearing fans. (stock are usually mag lev=weak) and the blades seem a tad thicker than stock. Those fans spin faster than the stock ones and the bearing hold them on better and stronger. Do not get the ones with lots of fins as they are thin and will break off like saltine crackers perforations. Get those buyextras.com fans for your chargers and powersupplies too!


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## JANKEII (Feb 2, 2006)

Jason,
Which fan do you recomend? What size fits in the castle housing?
Thanks


jasonwipf said:


> Ya body air flow is mega important. Even the fastest fans only push 5-7mph of air. Our cars avg. 15-22mph of speed so thats eminently more important IMO (use the cars inertia to your advantage).
> 
> I like the fans at buyextras.com cuz they have ball bearing fans. (stock are usually mag lev=weak) and the blades seem a tad thicker than stock. Those fans spin faster than the stock ones and the bearing hold them on better and stronger. Do not get the ones with lots of fins as they are thin and will break off like saltine crackers perforations. Get those buyextras.com fans for your chargers and powersupplies too!


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

The castle is the same as Tekin ESC fans 30x30x7 5v (not 12v). And of course get in Ball bearing.

http://www.buyextras.com/b30dc5vbabec.html


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

*Should I buy a Castle or Tekin motor?*

I have raced both of these and put many hours on both now and have toggled back and forth between the 2 over the last year but people keep asking me which they would buy and today I'd say Tekin. Here is why.

1. Tekin has fixed their rotor issues that used to spin in their earlier models so it is now as bullet proof as a Caslte rotor, but with the bearings being a better quality in a Tekin that puts Tekin out in front now.

2. Between the Castle 1800 vs. the Tekin 1900, with esc and all of the factors the same and geared to run the same speed, I always found my Tekin motor always ran 10-15deg cooler. This may be by its design or that for a Castle 1800 to run as fast as the slightly higher KV Tekin 1900 you have to run 1-2 teeth higher on your Castle perhaps making it work harder and generating more heat.

3. If your coming from a gas buggy and are used too or like the feeling of a free spinning drive train off power when you enter a turn or are flying in mid air off a jump, then Tekin is your motor. Off power the Tekin's spin very freely and the Castle configuration has alot of magnetic resistance when it spins off power. With a Castle in turns it feels like you have drag brake and on a jump you get the sensation of doing a forward flip unless you get used to it and compensate with the throttle. Even if your not coming from a gas buggy I dont like to have to fight that in mid air with other things to focus on. Most of us with Castles get used to it and hardly notice this after awhile but if your new to Ebuggies and were to try both side to side it is VERY noticable. Running a lower tooth pinion on a castle makes it even more noticeable as the magnetic resistance of that castle motor is feels magnified by the increased torque of the gear ratio.

The are both great motors otherwise. I'm not dissing the Caslte as it is a great motor and I run them in both my main racers buggy/truggy as well as my Tekins, just try and upgrade the bearings if you have a Caslte. If you have neither of them yet I hope that just puts some perspective on what to buy and why.


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## JANKEII (Feb 2, 2006)

Cool, thnx


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

I'd like to also throw in that through my expirimentation, I have found that either the Castle 1800 or Tekin 1900, running on 4S will get you the closest to the stock gearing on a converted nitro buggy or truggy. For instance, if you have nitro buggy that runs a 16T stock clutch bell, and has factory options for a 15T and 17T for different motors/track conditions/etc, then you'll most likely find that once you've converted your nitro buggy to electric that your best bet is to run that same range of pinions (15T - 17T). 

Just something I've noticed and seems to be pretty much a good rule of thumb for CONVERTED buggies/truggies. 

Of course you could always play with one of those complicated gearing calculators if you'd like........


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Hehe your right Courtney I've tried those calculators and paper never seems to translate to the track quite right.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Well if you were at Mikes Friday you were front row to me frying another Castle Creation Monster Mamba ESC. I used to have 4 of these at one time. 1 fried in San Antonio in spring (smoke and fire), 1 broke and a jump shattered the motherboard, 1 fried at mikes this last weekend (smoke) and my last one is making my car stutter like a nitro that is way too rich. I'm done and going back to Tekin. At least if and when they fail thy just stop working and don't totally self destruct.


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## jep527 (Jun 19, 2009)

that sucks jason ive had one do that nitro thing


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## fast1970 (Feb 21, 2010)

Hmmm.. I thought Lectric" was so much more less hassle than Nitro...LOL.. Just Kiddin Jason, Sucks to have that much crappy luck..


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## hotrodchevy_77 (May 9, 2009)

that sucks jason


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Only MMM I've had go out was one from casing a jump BIG TIME. Sorry for your luck.

Think it has something to do with running the Tekin motor with the MMM? Just a thought.......most other people have better luck than that with them.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Nope, I was running a castle motor with it. My Tekin spare saved the day and I ran it a bunch when I swapped it out.


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## mwbmod74 (Dec 9, 2009)

Any of you guys running capacitor's and if so what are the advantages?


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## B4Maz (Aug 9, 2009)

Courtney Vaughan said:


> Only MMM I've had go out was one from casing a jump BIG TIME. .


+1. Same with me. MMM has been working very well for me.

I think its user error.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

B4Maz said:


> +1. Same with me. MMM has been working very well for me.
> 
> I think its user error.


You are correct. I use it and it errors. Mailed off 2 yesterday. One melted and one that jitters to motor like a crack whore. Both on castle motors and each on different Radio systems, both mounted on velcro with lots of vibration flex and tie wrap over-strap as back up hold down.


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## tebone626 (Apr 25, 2010)

Jason. you gonna keep them, or get rid of them i might have a deal for ya.


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## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

Jason, I wish I had an explanation for you but I don't I have only had 3 MMM's go out on me in over 2 years. My first one was doomed from the start because it was a V2, the second one the zip-tie hold keeping the case from coming apart broke so the board was moving around exposed and it broke a component off the board (no fault of the ESC), and the third one was from landing a large jump and I'm not entirely sure I had enough padding under it. I consider this a pretty good record for the MMM.

I have had the same experience with RX8's that you seem to have had with the MMM, probably worse. I had 3 RX8's go out one right after another. My first one stopped working about 20 minutes after I started using it, I sent it in for repair and it never even worked when I got it back, the third one was actually yours Jason. You let me borrow it after my MMM came apart at the state race at Mikes. I mounted it and had it all soldered in and it didn't work at all.

Bottom line is everyone is going to have a different experience with any company. We all hear good and bad about them all. It really just comes down to user preference.


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## sfleuriet (Nov 12, 2008)

You guys crash too much.. Lol.. I've been using my original MMM for a year. Thats why I started liking electric so much - it always just works.


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## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

You just screwed yourself Steven


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## tebone626 (Apr 25, 2010)

+1



nik77356 said:


> You just screwed yourself Steven


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

LOL. Well I agree they both go out. One catches fire the other just stops. One has less cogging and more features without a programing card or pc. So in the end I'm going with the one that has more features and does not catch on fire when it goes out, Tekin.


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## B4Maz (Aug 9, 2009)

Avid has ABEC 5 motor bearings now. http://www.avidrc.com/product/17/motor-bearings/284/5x16x5-Ceramic-Motor-625ZZC-motor-bearings.html


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Very nice. Kind of pricey for lighter balls, but then again mine are a bit heavy.


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## monsterslash (Aug 4, 2010)

I just had the same problem with a MM speed control with the cloging reset the firmware to the factory seting and try it if the problem continues then move your start power to the medium seting this should solve the problem. If this dose not it could be a cold soder joint on the motor.


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## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

Jason, my problem is you keep bad mouthing the castle. I have yet to see anyone have issues with cogging with the MMM. If anyone would, it would be me because of my 4s/1350kv motor setup. I also only run 25c batteries. I will give you that the Tekin is easier to program without a computer but have you tried to use turbo without a $40 hotwire? I have also heard of both tekins and castles catching on fire, but have yet to see it in person.


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## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

tekin vs castle = ford vs chevy

LOL


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## tebone626 (Apr 25, 2010)

i have never ran tekin before. i run all castle in my cars and trucks. i have only had one of mine catch fire. lucky it didnt mess anything else up. i have had to return two others, because the case came apart, and the wires to the reciever came loose from the board. they fixed all of them free of charge. but im with courtney, its like a ford and a chevy. all in what you like.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

nik77356 said:


> Jason, my problem is you keep bad mouthing the castle. I have yet to see anyone have issues with cogging with the MMM. If anyone would, it would be me because of my 4s/1350kv motor setup. I also only run 25c batteries. I will give you that the Tekin is easier to program without a computer but have you tried to use turbo without a $40 hotwire? I have also heard of both tekins and castles catching on fire, but have yet to see it in person.


Talk to Traig Clark about cogging. He is the most recent one of many I can remember talking to about cogging. He runs 50c and I run 25c 4s packs so it doesn't seem to matter there. And it doesn't happen alot. Sometimes I wont feel it an entire race or two other times it happens 3 times in one lap. Just depends if my motor comes to a complete stop on a sweeping turn when my rear swings around and goes dead stop or backwards just a tad (thats when I feel it the most) or sometimes on buzzer starts. Again not often but when it does happen its **** annoying and you have to double tap the trigger to get it wake up, by then I just got passed or dont have enough run up to make a jump.

I too have yet to see a tekin catch fire in person. I'm sure somewhere in the world it has happened but when I personally see several Castles smoke/fire then you know why I'm knocking Castle over Tekin. Don't get me wrong there are the only 2 I would buy out of all the ESCs out there but Tekin still wins my vote. As for your car be a cogging candidate; your car does not go fast enough to experience the issue  LOL I think you are safe.

As for analogies Its more like Toyota vs. Chevy, or Honda vs. Ford or BMW vs. Volkswagen. All have probably caught fire some where in the world but we all know one shines brighter regardless.


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## JANKEII (Feb 2, 2006)

Jason, just face it your getting older. Your trigger is'nt the same as it used to be. Maybe it's in your mind about your finger pulling the trigger not the ESC.


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## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

jasonwipf said:


> Talk to Traig Clark about cogging. He is the most recent one of many I can remember talking to about cogging. He runs 50c and I run 25c 4s packs so it doesn't seem to matter there. And it doesn't happen alot. Sometimes I wont feel it an entire race or two other times it happens 3 times in one lap. Just depends if my motor comes to a complete stop on a sweeping turn when my rear swings around and goes dead stop or backwards just a tad (thats when I feel it the most) or sometimes on buzzer starts. Again not often but when it does happen its **** annoying and you have to double tap the trigger to get it wake up, by then I just got passed or dont have enough run up to make a jump.
> 
> I too have yet to see a tekin catch fire in person. I'm sure somewhere in the world it has happened but when I personally see several Castles smoke/fire then you know why I'm knocking Castle over Tekin. Don't get me wrong there are the only 2 I would buy out of all the ESCs out there but Tekin still wins my vote. As for your car be a cogging candidate; your car does not go fast enough to experience the issue  LOL I think you are safe.
> 
> As for analogies Its more like Toyota vs. Chevy, or Honda vs. Ford or BMW vs. Volkswagen. All have probably caught fire some where in the world but we all know one shines brighter regardless.


Come to San Antonio for WXE! :work:


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## tebone626 (Apr 25, 2010)

when is the WXE


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## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

Every Wednesday night at 7:00. Wednesday Extreme Electric!


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## tebone626 (Apr 25, 2010)

dang, thats a long way for a wednesday night race. lol. but it sounds like alot of fun.


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## sfleuriet (Nov 12, 2008)

Okay I'll post a meaningful reply here. I don't remember where I read this, but the person posting it seemed smart. Apparently, he was talking to some engineers at his work and explaining how 1/8 scale E-buggies work and their ESC issues. THEY said.... The LiPo batteries are DC of course, and the ESC converts that to Alternating Current. (is that part true?) My understanding of AC is that the flow of electricity can go in two directions, unlike DC which only travels in one. Because of this, when the motor is braking (obviously this is not applicable to buggies with mechanical brakes), that instant surge of electricity must go SOMEWHERE, so it surges back into the ESC and can potentially cause damage.

Another theory is that e-buggy drivers that use a lot of brakes will experience these ESC failures more frequently than other drivers. These two theories may go hand-in-hand.

Personally, I don't use much brake at all.. Maybe a coincidence, but it seems to make some sense. Thoughts?


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## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

That is all true Steven. Brushless motors are AC which is why there are 3 wires for the motor instead of the 2 for a brushed motor. 

I think what you are saying about drivers using more brake having more problems has some merit to it. I personally don't use much brake at all.

Where is our resident EE when we need him? C'mon Earl!


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## tebone626 (Apr 25, 2010)

i use alot of brake, so im not so sure that is the problem. could be part of the problem. the only mm that caught fire on me, only had one pack ran through it.


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## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

That sounds plausible. I can only speak from personal experience but every time one of my ESCs went out it was upon acceleration or landing though. I thought the reason Brushless needed 3 was because it was not alternating or changing the direction of the current to an fro the same wires as it does when we brake with a 2 wire set up but because the current flows in sequential rotating bursts to turn the rotor without a commutator. And the reason for a sensored wire was so that it can detect the exact location of the rotor and could tell the ESC which of the 3 wires to start the rotating bursts with; where a non-sensored just blindly rotates the current not exactly knowing where the rotor is thats why you get cogging on the low/dead end of the rpm range since its just hopping the rotor is in sync with the opposing currents that are given to it by the ESC.


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