# Alligator Gar Proposal Released



## slimjim1987 (Mar 1, 2013)

I don't want to turn this into a debate. We have already hashed it out on multiple pages over on another forum. Please just read this, and sign the petition if you agree with the proposal. If you don't agree with it, there is also a link to the TPWD website where you can express your concerns. This was released by Texas Parks and Wildlife.

*Action*
*2014-2015 Statewide Recreational and Commercial Fishing Proclamation*
*March 27, 2014*

*RECOMMENDATION: Staff recommends that the Commission adopt the proposed motion:*

*BEGIN EXCERPT:*
*Proposed new Â§57.977, concerning Spawning Event Closure, would establish a processes to allow the department to temporarily prohibit the take of alligator gar in places where they are spawning or are about to spawn. Alligator gar populations are believed to be declining throughout much of their historical range in North America, which includes the Mississippi River system as well as the coastal rivers of the Gulf of Mexico from Florida to northern Mexico. Although the specific severity of these declines is unknown, habitat alteration and over-exploitation are thought to be partially responsible. Alligator gar have been extirpated in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio and designated as a â€œSpecies of Concernâ€ in Oklahoma and Kentucky. In addition, the Endangered Fishes Committee of the American Fisheries Society has listed the alligator gar as â€œVulnerable.â€ Observed declines in other states, vulnerability to overfishing, and increased interest in the harvest of trophy gar indicate that a conservative management approach is warranted until populations and potential threats can be fully assessed. On that basis, the Commission in 2009 adopted a daily bag limit of one alligator gar per person, which was intended to protect adult fish while allowing limited harvest, thus ensuring population stability. Since 2009, the department has conducted (and is continuing to conduct) research to determine the estimated harvest of alligator gar, quantify reproduction, understand habitat usage, and determine geographic differences in populations. Initial analysis of the research data indicate that alligator gar in Texas have the greatest chance of spawning success if the creation of preferred spawning habitat (the seasonal inundation of low-lying areas of vegetation) occurs in late spring through early summer. Since each year does not necessarily bring seasonal inundation at the optimum time, spawning success varies greatly. For example, department data for the middle Trinity River indicate that between 1980 and 2010, strong reproductive success occurred in only five years (1980, 1989, 1990, 1991, and 2007). Furthermore, in 21 of the years between 1980 and 2010, reproductive success was nonexistent or weak, and in many of these years, rainfall was low or drought conditions occurred. Because the conditions for spawning do not exist on a regular or cyclical basis, and because spawning occurs in shallow waters where numerous gar can be concentrated in one area, alligator gar are extremely vulnerable to harvest during spawning. To protect alligator gar from excessive harvest during spawning, the proposed new rule would allow the executive director of the department to prohibit the take of alligator in an affected area, which would be defined as â€œan area of fresh water containing environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawningâ€ or â€œan area of fresh water where alligator gar are in the process of spawning activity.â€ The proposed new rule would define â€œenvironmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawningâ€ as â€œthe components of a hydrological state (including but not limited to water temperatures, duration and timing of flooding events, river discharge rates, and any other factors that are known to be conducive to gar reproduction) that are predictors of the likelihood of spawning activity of alligator gar.â€ The proposed new rule would require the executive director to provide appropriate public notice when an affected area is declared and when lawful fishing for alligator may resume, and would limit the duration of a prohibition to no more than 30 days. The department believes it is important to provide the angling public with a specific maximum time span for the effectiveness of an action under the proposed new section. The proposed new rule is necessary to manage alligator gar populations and ensure their ability to perpetuate themselves successfully.*

*At the Work Session meeting on January 22, 2014, staff was authorized to publish the proposed rules in the Texas Register for public comment. The proposed rules appeared in the February 21, 2014 issue of the Texas Register (39 TexReg 1063). *

*Â§57.977. Spawning Event Closures.*

*(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms shall have the following meanings:*

*(1) Affected areaâ€"*

*(A) an area of fresh water containing environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning; or*

*(B) an area of fresh water where alligator gar are in the process of spawning activity.*

*(2) Environmental conditions conducive for alligator gar spawning â€"the components of a hydrological state (including but not limited to water temperatures, timing and duration of flood events, river discharge rates, and any other factors that are known to be conducive to alligator gar reproduction) that are predictors of the likelihood of spawning activity of alligator gar.*

*(b) The Executive Director shall prohibit the take or attempted take of alligator gar in an affected area and shall provide appropriate notice to the public when the take or attempted take of alligator gar in an affected area is prohibited. The Executive Director shall provide appropriate public notice as to when lawful fishing in the affected area or areas may resume. An action under this section shall not exceed 30 days in duration.*

*(c) No person may take or attempt to take alligator gar by any means in an affected area declared by the Executive Director under subsection (b) of this section until the Executive Director gives notice that the lawful take of alligator gar may resume.*

*Â§57.978. Violations and Penalties. The penalties for a violation of this subchapter are prescribed by Parks and Wildlife Code.*

*This agency hereby certifies that the proposal has been reviewed by legal counsel and found to be within the agencyâ€™s authority to adopt.*

*A summary of public comment on the proposed rules will be presented at the time of the hearing.*

*CLICK LINK BELOW TO SIGN A PETITION IN SUPPORT OF THIS CHANGE*
*http://www.change.org/petitions/concerne...s-alligator-gar*

*CLICK LINK BELOW TO SUBMIT OFFICIAL COMMENTS TO TPW FOR OR AGAINST*
*http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/feedback/public_comment/proposals/201403_fishing.phtml*


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## slimjim1987 (Mar 1, 2013)

Moderators, 

In my haste to post this, I may have put it in the wrong section. Can it be moved to the freshwater discussion?


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## omgidk (Nov 5, 2010)

I used to catch tons of these as a kid in Florida, good fight that's for sure.


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## slimjim1987 (Mar 1, 2013)

Not sure how old you are, or how long ago that was, but now you aren't allowed to keep any in Florida anymore. That's how bad the population has declined there.


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## Trouthappy (Jun 12, 2008)

Alligator gar were huge and common in 1967 when I started catching them. Big ones would smack their tails like beaver in the ICW behind our house in Port Arthur. We could catch a dozen alligator gar about 35 inches long in a day while using live mullet, while trying to catch redfish instead, in Sabine Lake. Gar were everywhere then. Also pretty thick in the Trinity River below the Lock and Dam in 1982 or so, but the Trinity is their last stronghold. I was actually surprised to catch one last May in Port Arthur, and took pictures. They've been decimated, apparently. It doesn't make sense to target the big ones with bow and arrow, either. They're a slow-growing fish that only spawn in flood conditions.


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## omgidk (Nov 5, 2010)

I was on the edge of Greens and about 4 weeks ago and one pop up right next to the boat and scared the booboo beegeez out of me.


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## CKALLTHEWAY (Sep 8, 2012)

there are plenty in the brazos river !!!


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## Smackdaddy53 (Nov 4, 2011)

SAVE THE ALLIGATOR GAR!!!!

http://www.fishingscout.com/scouts/SmackDaddy


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## jampen (Oct 12, 2012)

It's hard to imagine them being endangered, seems like there are plenty in the lakes around here.


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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

Grew up chasin and catching them on the Nueces and Mathis dam that would make a 6'3" fat man look like a lil *****. Save the gar!! Just keep 15 speckies!


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## robolivar (Oct 7, 2011)

Trouthappy said:


> It doesn't make sense to target the big ones with bow and arrow, either. They're a slow-growing fish that only spawn in flood conditions.


I agree. not much of a sport if you ask me.


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## slimjim1987 (Mar 1, 2013)

Looks like there are some opinions here. Are y'all responding on the links? Both the petition and the Parks and wildlife survey take less than 5 minutes to fill out.


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## robolivar (Oct 7, 2011)

slimjim1987 said:


> Looks like there are some opinions here. Are y'all responding on the links? Both the petition and the Parks and wildlife survey take less than 5 minutes to fill out.


I filled it out right away..im with ya slim!


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## texas two guns (Jan 23, 2006)

robolivar said:


> I agree. not much of a sport if you ask me.


You obviously have never tried it.


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## G-O-T-B (Jan 15, 2010)

I use to see them all over sabine lake now not so much they are still alive and well in the Taylors and Hildebrandt bayou


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## Gatorbait#1 (Feb 12, 2014)

I catch a few every time I fish in the Trinity, or the Locks at the mouth of the Trinity. We caught a 6-7 footer last year, almost pulled my buddy in the water. His pole almost broke.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Just can't see killing a fish for fun that was half grown when my son the engineer was born. 
They are an integral part of the fresh water habitat. They don't eat fish eggs or small fish fry and fingerling.
Take them out of the ecosystem then what other species gets out of control.


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## robolivar (Oct 7, 2011)

texas two guns said:


> You obviously have never tried it.


Your right i havent...doesnt look fair IMO. It kinda seems like pullin up next to a bull in a farm truck and ropin it with a nuce..


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

jampen said:


> It's hard to imagine them being endangered, seems like there are plenty in the lakes around here.


They are not endangered today, but may be soon. And everyone knows how the federal fish and game operate. If they get the thought, then they will be on the endangered list. If Texas doesn't take steps necessary to protect, the feds will. And where this proposal allows the TP&W commission to "close" spawning habitat, it will be on the biologist in charge's reccommendation. And it won't close the area, just prohibit taking alligator gar by any means for a period of up to 30 days.


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## mudkat (Mar 1, 2008)

A bunch of yall are talking about things you know nothing about !!!! 
First off bowfisherman were the first people to have anything to do with them , TP&W were as little as 20 years ago trying to extermanate them !!!! They allowed a couple of commercail fishermen take 1,000,000 pounds of cleaned gar meat out of choke canyon lake !!!
The problem with the gar not being in all their natural range is strickly because of the feds and state gov damming up the river and stopping the migration and natural flooding of those rivers.
we bowfishermen volunteered our time and knowledge to the states study of the fish and for some of you to sit there and say we dont care and we are the cause of this so called decline and there is no sport in taking a gar with a bow , you can get F'ed


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## txtrotliner88 (Mar 3, 2013)

Thanks for the petition link. Garfish are a neat creature and I have some good memories from my childhood catching them on trot lines in Kansas. I hope the species can be saved for the enjoyment of generations to come.


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## markbrumbaugh (Jul 13, 2010)

Mudkat may have a point, but I see no reason not to protect this elegant fish to spawn so our great grandkids can enjoy.


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## poco jim (Jun 28, 2010)

markbrumbaugh said:


> Mudkat may have a point, but I see no reason not to protect this elegant fish to spawn so our great grandkids can enjoy.


I agree Mark, they are a blast to catch on a rod and reel, and great table fare.


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

Most gar people see aren't alligator gar. All the gar species we have in Texas are a blast to catch on rod n reel. My Son and I have a couple of spots on the LCRA canals around Garwood where we fish for them. Out of all the gar we have caught only a handful are alligator gar. Most are long nose and spotted gar.


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

And they are good eating. I would like to see the state take steps to insure that we have plenty of alligator gar to catch in the future.


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## texas two guns (Jan 23, 2006)

robolivar said:


> Your right i havent...doesnt look fair IMO. It kinda seems like pullin up next to a bull in a farm truck and ropin it with a nuce..


You need to go on a fishing trip if that's what you think. You can spend hours upon hours just trying to get a shot. Then you have to make a good shot. 
Contrary to popular opinion it is not shooting fish in a barrel. The video they showed of some gar in a flooded field was at Hagerman Wildlife Refuge in OK on lake Texoma. It was the same tear jerking video they showed in 2009. It was a rare sight that many never get to see. Even if you did you can still only take 1 and most likely they are gone the next day.
Between the fishing community and the commission there are a lot of discrepancies between thinking they know the sport and our actual sport.
Don't confuse the pictures of barrels of fish (pardon the pun) and alligator gar fishing. Two very different fishing styles.


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## robolivar (Oct 7, 2011)

texas two guns said:


> You need to go on a fishing trip if that's what you think. You can spend hours upon hours just trying to get a shot. Then you have to make a good shot.
> Contrary to popular opinion it is not shooting fish in a barrel. The video they showed of some gar in a flooded field was at Hagerman Wildlife Refuge in OK on lake Texoma. It was the same tear jerking video they showed in 2009. It was a rare sight that many never get to see. Even if you did you can still only take 1 and most likely they are gone the next day.
> Between the fishing community and the commission there are a lot of discrepancies between thinking they know the sport and our actual sport.
> Don't confuse the pictures of barrels of fish (pardon the pun) and alligator gar fishing. Two very different fishing styles.


Ive watched several videos of it being done and have friends that have done it ...it is a fun thing to do from what ive heard and seen. Its just not for me. Also, i do not think bowfisherman are the cause of the "decline". I believe that if not abused, bowfishin is just fine. The problem is, it has become more popular, and with that comes inexperienced guys that shoot everything in site for the fun of it. I dont think.it should be banned, just more regulated.


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## texas two guns (Jan 23, 2006)

Thank you for the comments. As a long time bowfisher, I can tell you that yes, it's more popular, but it's a fad sport. New guys come and go, the recruitment of guys that stay with the sport is very low. I know guys that have mostly quit after staying at it for 20 yrs. Just decided to do something else or whatever. Maybe they quit because it's too regulated, I don't know. What I do know is that while it looks hugely popular and the sport is growing in the public eye, it's still very few people doing it every year.


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

mudkat said:


> A bunch of yall are talking about things you know nothing about !!!!
> First off bowfisherman were the first people to have anything to do with them , TP&W were as little as 20 years ago trying to extermanate them !!!! They allowed a couple of commercail fishermen take 1,000,000 pounds of cleaned gar meat out of choke canyon lake !!!
> The problem with the gar not being in all their natural range is strickly because of the feds and state gov damming up the river and stopping the migration and natural flooding of those rivers.
> we bowfishermen volunteered our time and knowledge to the states study of the fish and for some of you to sit there and say we dont care and we are the cause of this so called decline and there is no sport in taking a gar with a bow , you can get F'ed


So some "guide" recently posted photos of his jon boat nearly filled to the brim with dead alligator gar. http://www.texasgarfishing.com/ The limit in Texas is ONE per day, per person. I have NO issue with someone following the law, however slaughtering hundreds or thousands of pounds of fish just for sport is ridiculous at best, especially when they have little to no edible value. Not saying you behave this way, however we ALL own responsibility for our waters.


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## texas two guns (Jan 23, 2006)

You mean that first picture? The one that is full of "Long Nose Gar"?
There currently is not a limit on that species, nor on "spotted Gar" or "shortnose gar".
And your right, there is no edible value, like mosquitos, rats, coyotes. So what do you do with them when you kill them? We all own responsibility for our waters, right and taking out the trash is a method of keeping that species in check. Would you rather pay a commercial trapper to rid a lake of over abundance of carp, buffalo and grass carp or let us participate in a sporting way? Have you seen a lake over run with common carp? I'm sure you've seen lakes with too many grass carp (Jacksonville, Conroe, soon to be Lake Austin). How do you get rid of those?


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

texas two guns said:


> You mean that first picture? The one that is full of "Long Nose Gar"?
> There currently is not a limit on that species, nor on "spotted Gar" or "shortnose gar".
> And your right, there is no edible value, like mosquitos, rats, coyotes. So what do you do with them when you kill them? We all own responsibility for our waters, right and taking out the trash is a method of keeping that species in check. Would you rather pay a commercial trapper to rid a lake of over abundance of carp, buffalo and grass carp or let us participate in a sporting way? Have you seen a lake over run with common carp? I'm sure you've seen lakes with too many grass carp (Jacksonville, Conroe, soon to be Lake Austin). How do you get rid of those?


 Sorry but I don't go out and needlessly slaughter animals just for fun. Second, grass carp are not a species which were meant to be put here to begin with. A sterile grass carp put in by TPWD would be placed there in proper numbers and wouldn't breed. The fact that some retarded people felt the need to put an invasive species into Conroe is beyond the scope of this discussion. I have no issue if gar or any other species is being taken legally and for good purpose, but to load a boat and just throw them in the trash is negative to what most outdoorsmen stand for in my opinion.


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## texas two guns (Jan 23, 2006)

I can't win a moral argument with you and I'm done trying. Most bowfishermen I know are some of the biggest "sportsmen" and "outdoorsmen" I know, so let's not go throwing those names around. If you can't stomach it, that's fine. We are 50% favorable in your eyes at least, it's legal. And until it's not, I don't really care what you think is for "good purpose"


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