# another soil quesiton



## gm (Jun 26, 2004)

So I have a 16x10 raised bed and my spring/summer (1st crop) was a total bust. had corn, beans, squash bell peppers and potatoes planed. Nothing really grew well. Didn't die, just didn't produce. 

Sent a soil sample to TAMU and no wonder....
Nitrate-N = 0 
Phosphorous = 26 ( target level 50ppm)
Potassium = 63 (target level 175 ppm)

Soil test results recommend:
Nitrogen: 1.4lbs N / 1000 sq. ft.
Phosphorus: 1.9lbs P2O5 / 1000 sq. ft.
Potassium: 2.5lbs K2O / 1000 sq. ft.

So here's the question: I bought nitrogen, phosphate and Potassium separately, but the label says, on the Phosphate for example, "46% available phosphate". Does that mean that he recommended 1.9 lbs from the test results requires approximately 3.8lbs / 1000 sw. ft. of the phosphate I bought since it is "46% available"?

I don't want to under-fertilize and have poor results again, but overdosing I guess would just as bad.

P:S - I bought the "garden mix" from Living Earth, and it wasn't cheap...what a ripoff.


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Good to know about the Living Earth garden soil.

https://www.gardenanalyst.com/gardening-how-to/soil-and-fertilizers/increase-phosphorous-in-soil/

At the bottom, you can email this person with your question.


----------



## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

gm said:


> ...
> 
> So here's the question: I bought nitrogen, phosphate and Potassium separately, but the label says, on the Phosphate for example, "46% available phosphate". Does that mean that he recommended 1.9 lbs from the test results requires approximately 3.8lbs / 1000 sw. ft. of the phosphate I bought since it is "46% available"?
> 
> ...


Yes you are correct. You are also wise to get the soil test and now you know exactly what your soil needs. However, one thing that most soil tests don't cover is organic matter. You need it. One of the best things you can do is to plant that area in cover crops this winter and turn it all under next spring well before you are ready to start your spring crops.

I would suggest Elbon rye for nematode control, legumes like clovers and vetch for adding N2 to the soil and small grains for organic matter and weed control. Soil building should be a continuous process and the soil should never, ever be left bare.

You are also correct in recognizing that over fertilizing with chemical fertilizers is very bad for soil health. Cover crops don't have that problem.


----------



## gm (Jun 26, 2004)

Thanks for the replies guys. 

Meadowlark, I've followed your threads about cover crops in the past, definitely plan to try that out. 

Where do you get the seeds/seedlings for the cover crops? Also, after adding the recommended fertilizer amounts can I ahead and add the organics, and have time to get a fall/winter veggie crop in? Can you buy sacks of suitable organics I could till in for this fall crop?


----------



## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

I get most all of my seeds from my local feed store. They have generally excellent selections this time of year for cover crops because deer hunters are looking for the same seeds. 

Yes, you have plenty of time depending on your location. A great organic soil builder is Black Kow sold in a lot of box stores. You can till it in anytime.


----------



## Mattsfishin (Aug 23, 2009)

I have several raised beds and use micro life fertilizer. I also buy soil from a local place and add compost such as Black kow to it . If you are around Conroe the master gardener sales will have micro life for $34 a bag and you can get organic fertilizer from arbor gate for $28 a bag but micro life is better. I am not always able to use cover crops so I use the organic fertilizer. I did have one bed this year covered in beans. I turned them under. On the east side of Conroe there is a place that sells garden soil with compost for $34 yard if you pick up. They assure everyone that this product does NOT have bio solids in it.


----------



## Dick Hanks (Aug 16, 2007)

The size of the garden space will often dictate what method may be best to introduce organic material into your soil. Some will have an immediate contribution and others are a more long term conditioner. Whatever method you chose, you need to get a basic understanding of of how quickly they will be contributing NPP if you want a productive garden next year.

For large gardens, by far and away the best method to build the soil with organics and NPP is by using cover crops, before and/or after your veggies, if your growing season is long enough to do this. All of Texas is perfect for this. Even in my northern latitude, where I would have to choose between veggies or a cover crop.... if the soil in a large garden was depleted, I'd skip a year on veggies and do 1 or 2 cover crops. They are really that good for your soil and are the most economical way, on a large square foot basis, to build up your garden.

Small gardens, like your 16 X 10 raised bed @ 160 sq ft, aren't feasible time wise to invest in cover crops. Purchased, bagged or bulk, compost is the way to go. The more completely that it is decomposed, the less non-organic NPP that you will need to add. If the compost hasn't completely broken down, you will need to add extra nitrogen. Enough to aid in the breaking down process and enough for your plants. If your compost contains no manure or added fertilizers, I would think around a 1/2 pound of each NPP would be plenty for a 160 sq ft raised bed the 1st year. If you add organics again the second year, you should be able skip the artificial NPP all together.

Medium size gardens like mine (around 1,000 to 2,000 square feet) are kinda between growing cover crops and buying compost. Each fall I collect and shred about 500#s of leaves. These are mixed with about 200#s of fresh, green grass clippings (the nitrogen source to feed the bacteria that breaks down the leaves). If the pile uses up the nitrogen before composting is complete, I'll put 3 or 4 gallons of my homemade fish emulsion on the pile to re-introduce nitrogen, new beneficial bacteria, PP, and trace elements. Mix the pile, and it quickly finishes composting. The finished compost is like a wonder drug for the garden.


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Good tips on building better soil, all. 

What are the symptoms of too much fertilizer?


----------



## Dick Hanks (Aug 16, 2007)

karstopo said:


> Good tips on building better soil, all.
> 
> What are the symptoms of too much fertilizer?


Too much nitrogen can "burn" a plant. They will look like the spots where a female dog peed on your lawn, and there is a dead grass circle. If the nitrogen isn't that excessive, and the plant survives, you may get a plant with LOTS of deep, rich, green growth, but very little crop production.

Excess of the 2 Ps can be harder to detect or pinpoint. For example the excess of one may make it difficult for the plant to uptake other needed nutrients including nitrogen. Blossom end rot on tomatoes is usually a calcium deficiency. There may be enough calcium in the soil, but an excess of one of the Ps could be prevent the plant from up-taking that calcium.


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Thanks. Everything Iâ€™ve read points to it being better to be a little under on the fertilizer than over. What Iâ€™m not clear on is how fine a line that it. 

The black kow, composted cow manure, from their website appears to be .5/.5/.5 on the NPP so I can see where it would be hard to burn up plants with that. Iâ€™ve been using 3/2/3 material made from chicken manure and working it into the soil before planting at about half the labeled rate and then putting a little around the base of the growing plant periodically, but Iâ€™d probably better be careful about getting too aggressive with the periodic application. 

Iâ€™ve got now two compost piles going and want to try and avoid bringing in any outside compost materials or soil, not knowing really whatâ€™s been used as the raw materials, and just continue to improve the native soil I have. The black kow seems like a good product to help improve the soil and there doesnâ€™t seem to be any reason the makers would put anything else in it but manure.


----------



## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Dick Hanks said:


> ...
> Small gardens, like your 16 X 10 raised bed @ 160 sq ft, aren't feasible time wise to invest in cover crops. ...


I have to disagree on this one. Several reasons...

One, the only way I know to successfully control/prevent soil nematodes is through a cover crop. Nematodes are destructive soil borne pests that are everywhere. Elbon Rye is the best for nematode control. It takes almost no time to plant it....just throw it out on the ground. The seed can be bought in small amounts.

Secondly, green manure is magical stuff for the soils. If you add legumes to your mix, N2 will be added to the soil through the legume. Time? I don't understand this, legumes can be broadcast spread to small spaces almost effortlessly. Very efficient way to improve soil.

A good thick cover crop in a small space will absolutely inhibit weeds....and save you countless hours that would have otherwise been spent on backbreaking weed removal.

I definitely recommend cover crops in a garden like the Op has. It is the best and most efficient way to build soils that I know of.


----------



## Dick Hanks (Aug 16, 2007)

karstopo..... I just went back to my "Pictures" thread and looked at the pictures that were either shots of your garden or the soil was in the background when you were holding a pepper. It appears that there are some organics that are still in the process of breaking down. This is a good thing, but you need to know that with those organics that are still breaking down, bacteria will use up a little of the available nitrogen in making that process happen. After it has completely broken down, it will begin gradually releasing the NPP that it has stored.

I don't think that you need to worry too much about using 3/2/3 at this stage. Nitrogen gets used up fairly rapidly, and PP at those concentrations shouldn't be harmful.

The full benefit of regular compost addition really kicks into high gear in the 2nd or 3rd year of doing it. During the 2nd and 3rd years, the compost from the previous year is only adding back NPP and is using no nitrogen to breakdown farther. The fresher compost does great things for soil texture and the quick release nutrients.

It is the same process that happens with Lark's cover crops. Each cover crop that he has shredded and plowed under is in different stages of breaking down and making contributions to the soil at different rates and in different ways. It is the blend of these different stages of decomposing that make cover crops so wonderful.


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Iâ€™ve got a 9.5 x 16â€™ plot. This will be the second fall with the garden. Plan is to do another similar sized garden this fall several feet away from the one I have. That way, I can rotate crops or plant the cereal rye for the nematode control in one and still have the other with productive crops. 

Iâ€™ve got purple hull peas going now and some bush green beans that have just come up. The purple hull peas are from the seeds I saved from last summer. I bought the green bean seeds. 

The purple hulls and beans will be done in October and Iâ€™ll put some of the fall/winter stuff like kale and broccoli in those spots. Iâ€™ll probably compost the legume plants rather than work them into the soil. Iâ€™ll add some compost from my pile before planting the fall/winter crops. My compost is a mix of worn out garden plants, Spanish moss, fruit and vegetable trimmings and leaves. It looks very rich and the earth worms love it. 

I do all my soil turning with a shovel. The garden is small enough that itâ€™s a great workout without killing me. Otherwise, Iâ€™d probably till in the purple hull plants and wait a little to plant something on that spot. 

I really like the idea of improving the soil I have rather than bringing in a big load of mystery soil and or compost. Some good friends did the bring in a bunch of soil and compost from a vendor and did the raised beds thing, but theyâ€™ve had very poor results the last two seasons doing that. Not sure whatâ€™s going wrong because they have experience gardening and have had good results in the past.


----------



## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

A great buffer to lack of elements is compost from your own pile ..... 

My 2 cents ..... for that size garden ..... take a whole bag of Micro life and till it in with the best compost you have......then take a quality mulch and cover all the soil .....

let it rest a few days and plant

It might take a season or two to really get that soil rampped up ...but that is a good start

time and patience


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

http://www.microlifefertilizer.com/...lifenew/product-sheets/3_MLHumatesPlus004.pdf

Is this the one? Looks like Lake Hardware in Clute carries it.


----------



## BATWING (May 9, 2008)

Microlife products are fantastic. If you are on the NW side. D&D Feed is a good source. I can also confirm the Arborgate organic fertilizer worth the money. 



Also for the peeps with small gardens or landcscape projects starting with good soil is 80%. I have used recently both Living Earth Rose Soil and Arborgates custom soil and both are very nice for amending soil. I would say the Arborgate soil would be better is you have more a clay base.


----------



## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

This one

https://sanjacsupply.com/product/microlife-6-2-4-with-fe/

BTW- it contains trace minerals as well ....


----------



## Mattsfishin (Aug 23, 2009)

Muddskipper said:


> This one
> 
> https://sanjacsupply.com/product/microlife-6-2-4-with-fe/
> 
> BTW- it contains trace minerals as well ....


This is the one I use and have excellent results. I stock up on it every january at the master gardener sales here in Conroe . When I start cuttings I put some of this in the soil in the pot I will be using. I have 3 pomegranates that I started with this and they are a couple feet tall. I use this in the pots that I start seeds in. Yeh I really like this stuff for raised beds.


----------



## gm (Jun 26, 2004)

Great information / advice guys, really appreciate it!


----------



## gm (Jun 26, 2004)

So one of the suggestions was to layer a quality mulch on top after I fertilize? 

How do I identify the appropriate / quality mulch? Is it available in box stores like home depot and lowes?


----------



## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

gm said:


> So one of the suggestions was to layer a quality mulch on top after I fertilize?
> 
> How do I identify the appropriate / quality mulch? Is it available in box stores like home depot and lowes?


your not going to like where I am going to suggest .... but Living Earth has a double ground that we use on jobs on beds all the time ....

I would rather see you use their FOREST FLOOR - its not quite a compost- but a finer mulch ..... its their version to the Leaf Mold that Natures Way sells ....but cheaper

it will break down fast and aid the soil


----------



## Dick Hanks (Aug 16, 2007)

Muddskipper said:


> your not going to like where I am going to suggest .... but Living Earth has a double ground that we use on jobs on beds all the time ....
> 
> I would rather see you use their FOREST FLOOR - its not quite a compost- but a finer mulch ..... its their version to the Leaf Mold that Natures Way sells ....but cheaper
> 
> it will break down fast and aid the soil


I like that idea. In my leaf compost pile, the outer edges stay as kind of a leaf mold because they are more surface area than bulk, and were dryer than the core of the pile that completely composted. Instead of "hilling up" my potatoes I use this "leaf mold" about 3" thick to protect the surface potatoes from turning green from sun exposure. I also use it as a top mulch on crops that prefer cooler soil because it is also a good insulator. Does a good job of suppressing weeds as well. When you turn it under at the end of the season, it breaks down in the soil very quickly because it was already about 80% on the way to being fully composted. Worms love to eat that stuff!


----------



## gm (Jun 26, 2004)

Mudskipper, you are correct....I'm pretty gun-shy of Living Earth now. Maybe if I bring my TAMU soil test results and receipt for the "garden mix" they sold me (and it wasn't cheap!) they will give me a steep discount to try them again.

OK, soap box off....I do appreciate the suggested, may give it a try.


----------



## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

tell them to at least give you the contractors price ...


----------

