# Young Whooping Crane Accidentally Shot



## Fishing Aggie (Aug 22, 2007)

AUSTIN - A juvenile whooping crane was accidentally shot and killed earlier this year near St. Joseph's Island in Aransas County, according to Texas Parks and Wildlife Department law enforcement officials. An avid freshwater duck hunter out on his first coastal duck hunt on Jan. 12 saw a bird he believed was a sandhill crane and shot it. When the man retrieved the bird he discovered that it was a young endangered whooping crane and turned himself in to a state game warden stationed in Aransas County.

The game warden contacted a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service agent, who joined the warden in investigating the case. Charges are pending in U.S. District Court.

Since beginning their slow recovery from a low of 16 birds in the 1940s, whoopers have, with few exceptions, always wintered on the Texas coast on and near Aransas National Wildlife Refuge. However, in the winter of 2011-12, several groups of whooping cranes expanded their wintering areas to include more coastal areas and even some inland sites in Central Texas.

Whoopers usually follow a migratory path through North and Central Texas that includes cities such as Wichita Falls, Fort Worth, Waco, Austin, and Victoria. During migration they often pause overnight to use wetlands for roosting and agricultural fields for feeding, but seldom remain more than one night. They nearly always migrate in small groups of less than 6-8 birds, but they may be seen roosting and feeding with large flocks of the smaller sandhill crane. They are the tallest birds in North America, standing nearly five feet tall. They are solid white in color except for black wing-tips that are visible only in flight. They fly with necks and legs outstretched.

The whooping crane population that winters in Texas is the only self-sustaining wild population of whooping cranes in the world. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is still analyzing survey data to produce an estimate for the Texas flock this year; biologists anticipate that number will be around 300 birds.

This case is only the fifth known shooting death of a whooping crane since 1968, although one additional death in Calhoun County in early 2012 is still under investigation. The juvenile whooper shot in January is believed to have been one of 34 juveniles that began the migration from Canada last fall-a relatively low production year for whooping cranes in contrast to recent years.

Citizens can help by reporting sightings of whooping cranes and by preventing disturbance of cranes when they remain overnight at roosting and feeding locations. Sightings can be reported to [email protected] or 512-389-TXWW (8999). Observers are asked especially to note whether the cranes have colored leg bands on their legs. Volunteers interested in attending training sessions to become "Whooper Watchers" in order to collect more detailed data may also contact the TPWD at [email protected] or 512-389-TXWW (8999).

Texas Whooper Watch (http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/whoopingcranes/) is a volunteer monitoring program that is a part of TPWD's Texas Nature Trackers program. The program was developed to keep track of an ever-expanding population of whooping cranes by improving the accuracy of surveys on the wintering grounds since growth of the flock has made traditional census methods more difficult.

Additional information, including photos of whooping crane look-alike species, can be found at http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/whoopingcranes/ and at http://www.whoopingcrane.com/report-a-sighting/.


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## big john o (Aug 12, 2005)

Turned himself in?? wow...


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## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

If I am correct, you are not allowed to shoot sandhill cranes in that area .... It's closed due to the Whooping cranes migration in the region


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## ak (May 6, 2012)

big john o said:


> Turned himself in?? wow...


WOW! x2


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## bighrt4 (Oct 26, 2012)

I just hope it doesn't ruin his life.


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## Fishing Aggie (Aug 22, 2007)

Muddskipper said:


> If I am correct, you are not allowed to shoot sandhill cranes in that area .... It's closed due to the Whooping cranes migration in the region


I might be wrong, but I thought anything south of IH 10 was off limits to sandhill cranes.


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## Goose Lover (Jan 23, 2012)

That is a closed area for the hunting of Sandhill Cranes. So he was breaking the law even by shooting at a Sandhill.

That artiicle didn't state if he had a Sandhill Crane permit? 

I have read that the resitution for killing a Whooping Crane can be $100,000.00

And that would not include the fines for shooting an illegal species and any other violations.


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## Fishing Aggie (Aug 22, 2007)

I stand corrected...found this link.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hunt/season/waterfowl/crane_zone/


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> I might be wrong, but I thought anything south of IH 10 was off limits to sandhill cranes.


They'd have locked me up a long time ago if that were true 

TH


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## Slimshady (Jan 11, 2005)

Bad deal to say the least. Waterfowl hunting can be fun but isn't a game when it comes to laws and species identification. I've always told people hunting with me in that area not to shoot cranes. Will be watching to see how this turns out. 

Was lucky enough to have three mature birds fly head high in front of us around San Jose this Saturday. It's always a bonus to have people on the boat that have never seen a Whooper before.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

I wonder how often this happens when peeps don't turn themselves in.


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## Bill C (May 23, 2004)

That's a real shame, for the bird but mostly for the hunter. I'm afraid this is going to be a life changing experience-and it won't be for the better.


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## Absolut (Jan 23, 2010)

Hopefully they'll go easy on the guy. At least he had the nerve and morals to stand up and take responsibility for his actions...got to applaud that.

It seems like an honest mistake, so make him pay a big fine, take some courses, and do some community service to help the cranes. No need for jail or felony record IMO.


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## Mr. Saltwater (Oct 5, 2012)

There was already talk of expanding the closed zone for Sandhills. This won't help matters.


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## Shaky (May 21, 2004)

I seem to remember a case a few years back with a similar situation where the guy turned himself in, I can't remember the particulars but it seemed like the feds pretty much threw the book at him.

I think it may have even been discussed here on 2cool???????


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

The guy from Texas who shot the Whooper in 89 paid a $15,000.00 fine after he turned himself in.

I don't remember what the fine was for the guy a few years ago.

TH


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

I believe the fact that he turned himself in should go a long way in regards to the sentence. I dont think they should throw the book at someone that has morals.


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## hadaclueonce (Jun 3, 2005)

Shaky said:


> I seem to remember a case a few years back with a similar situation where the guy turned himself in, I can't remember the particulars but it seemed like the feds pretty much threw the book at him.
> 
> That guy was appointed to the PUCT. It did not last long.
> 
> There was an issue with a previous employer.


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## Jpaulp (Nov 14, 2012)

http://cs.birdwatchingdaily.com/brd...rane-in-indiana-receive-probation-1-fine.aspx

$1 fine for these guys and one year probation.


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## Xpress89 (Dec 20, 2012)

Jackwagon shouldnt have been shooting cranes anyway! Fine the hell out of him but yea i dont agree with jail time, or felony.


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## Baffin Bay (Jul 26, 2011)

This could lead to no hunting in that area at all.


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## Xpress89 (Dec 20, 2012)

Baffin Bay said:


> This could lead to no hunting in that area at all.


That's def not going to happen. Not just over one dude with no sense. It will just make the fine and consequence a lot worse IMO.


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## Bingo baits (May 11, 2011)

Do they really look that alike?


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## El Capitan de No Fish (Sep 20, 2007)

The guy made a mistake and owned up to it. Yes he should have known better, but still he turned himself in. The overwhelming majority of human beings would have buried it and went on about their day.


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## Mojo281 (Sep 7, 2006)

El Capitan de No Fish said:


> The overwhelming majority of human beings would have buried it and went on about their day.


If you bury them two feet up, two more will grow next year!!

It really is a shame that a watefowler would misidentify a whooper for a sandhill... It's only twice as big and snow white!! There is a reason that they include a section of bird identification in the Texas Waterfowl Digest (pgs. 14-17). http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_k0700_1014.pdf


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## MWP (Mar 30, 2005)

Mojo281 said:


> It really is a shame that a watefowler would misidentify a whooper for a sandhill...


The OP said is was a juvinile Whooper. Are they snow white that young? Still pretty much guilty because it was a no hunting zone.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

El Capitan de No Fish said:


> The guy made a mistake and owned up to it. Yes he should have known better, but still he turned himself in. The overwhelming majority of human beings would have buried it and went on about their day.


IMO you've got to cut the guy some slack for turning himself in, considering how easy it is to get away with something like that. I mean, how many of us have seen Mottled ducks plummet from the sky during Teal season and hardly ever hear of anyone being cited for it. Dude had a conscience and did the right thing when he didn't have to, that's some points in my book.


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

A guy up in the Dakotas just got sentenced for shooting a whooper. Fine was $85,000 with two years probation.

That said, he shot the whooper, along with a hawk, using a rifle. He also tampered with witnesses. So it was no accident.

Another group up in Indiana were sentenced last year for killing one. $5k in donations to a whooping crane fund, 120 hours of community service, three years probation. They did not turn themselves in and were "road hunting".

So I'll bet he ends up with a year or two probation, some community service, maybe a small fine.


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## El Capitan de No Fish (Sep 20, 2007)

justletmein said:


> IMO you've got to cut the guy some slack for turning himself in, considering how easy it is to get away with something like that.


Exactly


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Several years ago a hunter accidentally shot an ocelot thinking it was a bobcat. Basically same situation, turned himself in, fessed up, etc. If memory serves me correctly, he got barred from the ranch he was hunting on and received a hefty fine from USFW.


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## Dukman (Sep 21, 2007)

I'm guessing there's more to this story. Would he have turned himself in had he shot a Sandhill? Not sure how "I mistakenly thought it was a Sandhill" is going to play to a judge when he was hunting in a closed zone. He might not get jail time but he's going to get a hefty fine.... and rightly so.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

*cranes*

yes, young whoopers are not white and black,-grey like sandhills but larger-hate to hear it happened. when i was on kenedy-i was very nervous about whacking cranes there for simple mistake to happen.


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## MWP (Mar 30, 2005)

mrsh978 said:


> yes, young whoopers are not white and black,-grey like sandhills but larger-hate to hear it happened. when i was on kenedy-i was very nervous about whacking cranes there for simple mistake to happen.


I know a guide down in El Campo that will cancel your hunt in progress if you shoot before he gives you the go ahead on his crane hunts. I would be sweating bullets if I was hunting cranes near that closed zone but this dude actually killed it in the closed zone. You can't expect for much leeway when you broke the law already.


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## jeremyk (Apr 12, 2011)

MWP said:


> I know a guide down in El Campo that will cancel your hunt in progress if you shoot before he gives you the go ahead on his crane hunts. I would be sweating bullets if I was hunting cranes near that closed zone but this dude actually killed it in the closed zone. You can't expect for much leeway when you broke the law already.


I'd know a guide who'd I'd be taking to court to get my money back for not rendering services paid for if I ever got a hunt canceled mid-hunt or I'd simply say sorry I'm finishing the hunt I paid for thats ridiculous to think someone runs his business like that.


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

bighrt4 said:


> I just hope it doesn't ruin his life.


It already did...

But how did you know the whooping crane was a male?


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

mrsh978 said:


> yes, young whoopers are not white and black,-grey like sandhills but larger


John James Audubon, the naturalist, and bird painter, believed that what we now know as sandhill cranes were the young of whooping cranes.


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## Baffin Bay (Jul 26, 2011)

This guy turned himself in and confessed, he can't fight it and has to take what they offer.


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## M16 (May 28, 2008)

I had some whooping cranes on a food plot on my Calhoun County ranch. It is very neat to see these birds up close and personal. My place is in the no crane hunting zone. No excuse for this mistake.


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

A few years we had a single whooping crane on some leased property just west of Brazos Bend State Park. It hung around for a week.

Last year we had a bald eagle on our hunting club property just northeast of Damon. Not that uncommon on the eagle.


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

jeremyk said:


> I'd know a guide who'd I'd be taking to court to get my money back for not rendering services paid for if I ever got a hunt canceled mid-hunt or I'd simply say sorry I'm finishing the hunt I paid for thats ridiculous to think someone runs his business like that.


So are you saying you just shoot when you feel like it or you would rather shoot something your arent supposed to because you feel like when you are on a guided hunt? Sounds like he runs a safe guided crane hunt to me.


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

We have had 3 off and on all year roosting and using a property we hunt Southwest of Nada. They are the first I have ever seen in the wild. I never have been down to Port A to see em in the Winter. Awesome sight for sure. They were out there again Tuesday when I was scouting for geese along with 500 or so Sandhills.


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## bigbarr (Mar 9, 2010)

Absolut said:


> Hopefully they'll go easy on the guy. At least he had the nerve and morals to stand up and take responsibility for his actions...got to applaud that.
> 
> It seems like an honest mistake, so make him pay a big fine, take some courses, and do some community service to help the cranes. No need for jail or felony record IMO.


My thoughts exactly, but I dont think they should even fine him,,, not many stand up people these days,,, they should respect him for that...


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## shauntexex (Dec 12, 2007)

bigbarr said:


> My thoughts exactly, but I dont think they should even fine him,,, not many stand up people these days,,, they should respect him for that...


I hand a feeling the Feds won't share your sympathy for the guy


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## Cap-N-Red (May 21, 2004)

IMHO if he gets off with a fine less than $10,000 he will be lucky. I've seen how U.S. Fish & Wildlife works.


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## sea sick (Feb 9, 2006)

Get busted with 1K pounds of illegal endangered snapper -2500 dollar fine and you never stop fishing

Shoot a whooper and do the right thing, turn yourself in- im guna say 10-15k and extras,,,, like habitat rebuild,community service,classes maybe, loss of hunting for a season or 2.

It surely isn't apples to apples.


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## Goose Lover (Jan 23, 2012)

Which endangered species of snapper are you referring to? 

The Fish and Wildlife Service will respect the person for turning himself in and that will likely result in a smaller fine and/or restitution.

He shot one of the most endangered species of wildlife on earth while he was trying to shoot another species (Sandhill Cranes) that was in a closed zone. 

Likely nobody on this site knows the real story. He could have been hunting with others that saw what happened and told him he should turn himself in or they would.


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## jeremyk (Apr 12, 2011)

chuck leaman said:


> So are you saying you just shoot when you feel like it or you would rather shoot something your arent supposed to because you feel like when you are on a guided hunt? Sounds like he runs a safe guided crane hunt to me.


Nope I shoot within my limits and according to the law but what I got from the post was if u shoot before this so called guide tells you to he"ll "cancel" your hunt! Your telling me you've never shot before a guide told u too


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## Goose Lover (Jan 23, 2012)

In the few times I have went with a guide I didn't shoot before they told me too.


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

jeremyk said:


> Your telling me you've never shot before a guide told u too


I've been on quite a few guided hunts in several states and countries. I would never be such an jerk that I would shoot before the guide called it. But if I did, I would expect to have the hunt end right there.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> Your telling me you've never shot before a guide told u too


No and when I guided duck and goose hunts if a customer had shot before I told the group to he would have been gone.

TH


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## bluefin (Aug 16, 2005)

jeremyk said:


> Your telling me you've never shot before a guide told u too


I've been on quite a few myself and never shot before being told too. 
I have had to explain to a few guides that my idea of the green light is not with his first shot.


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## MWP (Mar 30, 2005)

jeremyk said:


> Nope I shoot within my limits and according to the law but what I got from the post was if u shoot before this so called guide tells you to he"ll "cancel" your hunt! Your telling me you've never shot before a guide told u too


Yep, he's actually a friend of mine and yes, on his crane hunts, he does not waiver on shooting until after he gives the go-ahead to take them. He wants to be positive on ID of cranes before anybody pulls the trigger because it's his business that will get the bad rep if they bust a Whopper.


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## Duckchasr (Apr 27, 2011)

*That's funny*



jeremyk said:


> Nope I shoot within my limits and according to the law but what I got from the post was if u shoot before this so called guide tells you to he"ll "cancel" your hunt! Your telling me you've never shot before a guide told u too


:spineyes:

He's asking a guide if he has ever shot before the guide told him to.LOL
The so called guides takes many different folks out, some are veteran hunters that can identify waterfowl as far as the can see them. Other couldn't tell an ibis from a goose or a coot from a teal let alone a pintail from any other duck when they already have their limit of pins. So the so called guides are there to make sure the customers abide by the laws as well as providing others in the party an oppertunity to have close decoying shots not flaring birds because some gamehog starts shooting prematurely. When my dad guided he did'nt tollerate any nonsence outta people like you. You shoot early you sit in the truck. You wanna bring your dog fine keep him under control if not you sit in the truck. You wanna shoot non game birds fine you get the game warden called on you. The so called guide is not going to have his reputation tarnished from some fruitcake that can't follow directions.:texasflag


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## Garwood57 (Jul 1, 2007)

I think a wise strategy on the coast - don't shoot at any kind of crane!


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## shauntexex (Dec 12, 2007)

I'd be interested to see the update and what this guys punishment will be. No excuse in my opinion in a no crane zone


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

jeremyk said:


> Nope I shoot within my limits and according to the law but what I got from the post was if u shoot before this so called guide tells you to he"ll "cancel" your hunt! Your telling me you've never shot before a guide told u too


Been on several guided hunts and I dont shoot before Im told to. I have also run several guided goose hunts and I will send you back to your truck/car if you shoot before the shot is called more than once.One warning is all you get. A goose,crane, or duck hunt is a group effort unless you are hunting alone. Shots are called for several reasons. Number one is safety. I also weed out any shot jumpers/game hogs from my duck hunting groups.


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

And I make it very clear before the hunt what the rules are. Had this guy had a knowledgeable person with him or bothered to read the regs he would have been saved a lot of grief.


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## Pasadena1944 (Mar 20, 2010)

Bill C said:


> That's a real shame, for the bird but mostly for the hunter. I'm afraid this is going to be a life changing experience-and it won't be for the better.


In the end it's still just a **** bird and not worth ruining someones life over that knew he make a mistake and said so....this country is really screwed up....


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

Pasadena1944 said:


> In the end it's still just a **** bird and not worth ruining someones life over that knew he make a mistake and said so....this country is really screwed up....


He didnt know he made a mistake until he had the bird in hand. Had he taken the time to read the rule book and know that the area he was hunting was closed to Sandhill crane hunting it would never had happened. Its a lesson learned. Way to many folks go hunting and fishing without bothering to read the regulatiions. Why would this ruin his life? Did he die? No. Is his bank account gonna be lighter? Yes. And I also bet that he knows the rules now and in the future will be a better hunter. I see it as a lesson learned. many lessons unfortuantely are learned the hard way.


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## MWP (Mar 30, 2005)

chuck leaman said:


> And I also bet that he knows the rules now and in the future will be a better hunter. I see it as a lesson learned. many lessons unfortuantely are learned the hard way.


I bet he learns next time to use a shovel and keep his mouth shut.


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

MWP said:


> I bet he learns next time to use a shovel and keep his mouth shut.


Maybe. Im guessing that there were other folks in the area that might or might not have seeen what happened so he took the high road and turned himself in. That way the kick in the nutz wouldnt have been as bad.


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## capt4fish (Dec 4, 2004)

*It most certainly will.*



bighrt4 said:


> I just hope it doesn't ruin his life.


With the FEDS and TPWD up in his business. Poor fella is all I can say.


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## bighrt4 (Oct 26, 2012)

It is really serious stuff. My dad met a ex-guide in Montana while helping out some veterans up there. He was physically attacked by a grizzly bear and killed it in self defense. It cost him everything just to stay out of jail and he lost his guide license. He is completely destitute now.


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## Xpress89 (Dec 20, 2012)

MWP said:


> I bet he learns next time to use a shovel and keep his mouth shut.


Ahahah hell ya!


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## kinja (May 21, 2004)

bighrt4 said:


> It is really serious stuff. My dad met a ex-guide in Montana while helping out some veterans up there. He was physically attacked by a grizzly bear and killed it in self defense. It cost him everything just to stay out of jail and he lost his guide license. He is completely destitute now.


Most guides are a cnut hair away from destitute in good times.


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## Goose Lover (Jan 23, 2012)

I think there is probably a lot more to the story about the hunting guide losing everythng because he killed a grizzly bear in self defense.


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## gonefishing2 (Apr 28, 2011)

This is the guide mentality that bothers me and I would never use a guide that would send me home for not waiting for the call. If you want to wear blaze orange and yell at geese, you are the paying customer. So what? As long as your not tearing up the land or hurting the wildlife unnecessarily, big deal. Guides I use will let you do whatever you want, however, they will advise you on the most succesful strategy, but in no way send you home. That is just ego there. I took a rookie dog with me one time and guide had a problem, told me to leave him in the truck, I said no, I'm trying to get him some practice and I don't care if he scaring off birds, I paid for this deal. Of course you can't complian for lack of succes, but guiding is a service business and customer should always be right. Assuming no permenantly damage, tearing up property, etc. Never understood this ego thing.


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

gonefishing2 said:


> Never understood this ego thing.


You might try a long look in the mirror...

A guide wants the customer to be as successful as possible which is why they have to be in control.

You say the "customer should always be right", but that runs thin when the customer's actions result in a wasted effort. Why would anyone book a guide if they want to overrule what the guide knows is working?

But I will agree that if you really want to "wear blaze orange and yell at geese", "bring a rookie dog", or sail dried cow patties at the birds while howling at the moon, it's your call AS LONG AS you reach a very clear understanding with the guide before the hunt is booked and if the guide agrees, then "ce qui sera sera".....heck, he may even want to video the event.


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## gonefishing2 (Apr 28, 2011)

Wouldn't the paying customer be the one to determine if the trip was a success? Nothing to do with ego on my end. Again, you can't complain about the lack of shooting or killing, but a succesful hunt may differ from person to person, not necessarily what the guide thinks. The good guides I have used realize this, and I go back. Like one time a guide threw a fit because I told him lets try a new spot as we were tired of catching 16 inch trout, didn't need more meat, still had several hours left to fish. I said lets go try for some bigger fish, you would have thought i poked a hole in his boat.


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

gonefishing2 said:


> Wouldn't the paying customer be the one to determine if the trip was a success?


Total agreement here. My only point is that anything out of the norm needs to be fully explained to the guide upfront.


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## Dukman (Sep 21, 2007)

Big difference between hiring a guide for the use of their land vs hiring a guide to "guide" you. I can only guess you hire guides to take you out as a single party. 
Multiple hunters doing whatever they want whenever they want would jeopardize the safety of all and most likely the success of the group. I sure wouldn't want you in a guided party I was a part of.


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

There isnt a guide or outfit that I know of that will let you do what you want. If there is I hope he doesnt have to use his insurance any time soon because I dont want mine to go up.Calling the shot is mainly a safety issue #1 and at times a game id issue like in teal season or during the snow goose co. It has nothing to do with ego. Its all about running a safe and legal hunt. There has also been many a young dog get their head blown off because they jumped in front of a duck or goose hunter. A guided hunt or hunt with more than one or two folks isnt the time to "get the dog some practice". Practice is done at home or when you can hunt by yourself with the dog.


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## Scott (May 24, 2004)

Duckchasr said:


> :spineyes:
> 
> He's asking a guide if he has ever shot before the guide told him to.LOL
> The so called guides takes many different folks out, some are veteran hunters that can identify waterfowl as far as the can see them. Other couldn't tell an ibis from a goose or a coot from a teal let alone a pintail from any other duck when they already have their limit of pins. *So the so called guides are there to make sure the customers abide by the laws* as well as providing others in the party an oppertunity to have close decoying shots not flaring birds because some gamehog starts shooting prematurely. When my dad guided he did'nt tollerate any nonsence outta people like you. You shoot early you sit in the truck. You wanna bring your dog fine keep him under control if not you sit in the truck. You wanna shoot non game birds fine you get the game warden called on you. The so called guide is not going to have his reputation tarnished from some fruitcake that can't follow directions.:texasflag


Totally disagree with that high-lighted part above. Every hunter is responsible for knowing and following the game laws. It is not the guides responsibility to make sure you abide by them and know them. It's not a guides fault if you don't have a license or don't have a plug in your gun, or don't have a migratory game bird stamp.

The guides job is to run a safe, fun and effective hunt for everyone involved. He is not to actively participate in a game violation but it is not his duty to make sure you know the game laws or that you follow them.


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

Im not gonna let folks go over their limit or shoot things they arent supposed to. Thats part of the job. I dont know anyone who guides that would let folks do that. Im sure there are some out there but I dont know them. Ive only had a few of my hunters written up for anything. 2 were for no proof of hunters ed. 1 for an unplugged gun(he forgot to put it back in after a co hunt the year before) and one for a guy who had 3 dove loads(he should have checked his bag). You are right that they are responsible for those.


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## Scott (May 24, 2004)

gonefishing2 said:


> This is the guide mentality that bothers me and I would never use a guide that would send me home for not waiting for the call. If you want to wear blaze orange and yell at geese, you are the paying customer. So what? As long as your not tearing up the land or hurting the wildlife unnecessarily, big deal. Guides I use will let you do whatever you want, however, they will advise you on the most succesful strategy, but in no way send you home. That is just ego there. I took a rookie dog with me one time and guide had a problem, told me to leave him in the truck, I said no, I'm trying to get him some practice and I don't care if he scaring off birds, I paid for this deal. Of course you can't complian for lack of succes, but guiding is a service business and customer should always be right. Assuming no permenantly damage, tearing up property, etc. Never understood this ego thing.


I can't believe some of the discussions here. Obviously coming from folks that don't hunt waterfowl much or have never guided. I have guided and been guided for well over a combined 30 years. I've been guided by the best and some not so best. Most waterfowl hunts are in groups. Often the folks don't know each other. My brother almost got shot in the head one time because a goose wiffled at the last second and some moron that was in the group that I did not know shot, without a command from a guide. The guide watched the bird and knew it was about to wiffle down. He anticipated it and wanted to wait and call the shot once the bird straightened out or maybe even pass on the shot entirely. The bird was down the line of hunters and two feet over my brother's head. After the idiot shot, that guide did not send the hunter to the truck and possibly should have. In my 20 years of guiding, I never had to send someone to the truck but came pretty darn close once or twice. The first offense, you get an open counseling to the group. Second offense, you get a personal visit by me to your pit. Luckily, it never went past the second offense. During out private conference, I told the offender, three strikes and you're out. I explain the safety of it and the necessity of why the hunt will be better if you wait. That has always solved it. But, I can tell you this, safety is number one. If there is an unsafe hunter (and shooting without permission is unsafe) and guide does not solve the problem reasonably and quickly then he may be responsible for what happens.

And yea, if I send you back to the truck, you'll get your money back. Most guides will do that.

Bottom line, just because the customer wants to do it doesn't make it right. I don't let customers sky-blast just because they want to. Our organization had rules against it. So, there was never an issue. Guides should not permit hunters to act unethically, even if they want to and it is legal. End the hunt and give their money back. Tell them to go hunt with someone else next time.


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

*Scratching My Head!!*

What does all this have to do with a dead Crane? :cop:


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## Duckchasr (Apr 27, 2011)

*Off Topic*



Rack Ranch said:


> What does all this have to do with a dead Crane? :cop:


LOL We decided getting in a pizzing match about what the hunting guide resposiblity is is FUNNER!!!
To the OP sorry I was part of the hijack but that kinda talk bothers me.
The duckhunter screwed up if he was hunting in an area where crane hunting was permitted I would have more sympathy but he shot at a bird that should not have even been shot at all. 
Any body seen the king of the hill episode with the whooper.:texasflag


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

Rack Ranch said:


> What does all this have to do with a dead Crane? :cop:


Shut up! We're trying to have a serious thread highjacking here.


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## Dukman (Sep 21, 2007)

AvianQuest said:


> Shut up! We had a serious thread highjacking here.


Fixed ^^^ :cheers:


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## Xpress89 (Dec 20, 2012)

Trolls


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Xpress89 said:


> Trolls


You pulled the trigger didn'tcha'


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## southtexasreds (Jun 8, 2009)

AvianQuest said:


> Shut up! We're trying to have a serious thread highjacking here.


Haha


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## Xpress89 (Dec 20, 2012)

8,900 $ fine , one year probation, 200 hours community service.


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## MEGABITE (May 21, 2004)

That'll learn him!


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## Bill C (May 23, 2004)

Xpress89 said:


> 8,900 $ fine , one year probation, 200 hours community service.


That's not as bad as I feared but it had to hurt.


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## bighrt4 (Oct 26, 2012)

ya, cause everybody has 9k laying around. Man that stinks!


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## Dukman (Sep 21, 2007)

Bill C said:


> That's not as bad as I feared but it had to hurt.


I was guessing 10k and probation simply because he turned himself in. Had he not turned himself in it would have been 20k plus jail time. Pretty tough way to learn the laws he should have already known.


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## panhandle_slim (Jun 1, 2012)

I respect the guy for doin what he did, but I can't say I would've done the same. I have a conscience but I don't respect our government enough to let them take more from me than they already do


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## PawPawC (Feb 9, 2013)

Kudos for the fellow having the [email protected]@ to turn himself in.


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## Chuckwagon (Aug 30, 2006)

Lessons learned, lessons learned.


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## fouL-n-fin (Jan 16, 2011)

wonder if they let him mount the bird


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## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

Lets get back to the guide bashing


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## Cap-N-Red (May 21, 2004)

Noticed in the paper this morning. The fellow pleaded guilty and received a fine totaling $15,000 actual fine $5,000 and a community service fine of $10,000 to be paid to "Friends of Aransas and Matagorda Island Wildlife Refuge". What ever that is.


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## Duckchasr (Apr 27, 2011)

*Dang Guides*

:texasflag


troutslayer said:


> Lets get back to the guide bashing


Man one time I went out with this guide and we had pintail all over us and after the 2nd bird he said we couldn't shoot anymore. I told him screw you buddy the limit is six ducks and by golly I'm going to shoot six pintail if I want to. I paid for this hunt and I'm going to shoot what and how I want to!! He told me to go to the truck the hunt was over can you believe that ****. I told him I would never hunt with him again and tell all my friends not to either and you know what he said "GOOD!!! Now Get Off My Property!" Man that guide had some nerve. Sorry Guys I couldn't resist.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Duckchasr said:


> :texasflag
> 
> Man one time I went out with this guide and we had pintail all over us and after the 2nd bird he said we couldn't shoot anymore. I told him screw you buddy the limit is six ducks and by golly I'm going to shoot six pintail if I want to. I paid for this hunt and I'm going to shoot what and how I want to!! He told me to go to the truck the hunt was over can you believe that ****. I told him I would never hunt with him again and tell all my friends not to either and you know what he said "GOOD!!! Now Get Off My Property!" Man that guide had some nerve. Sorry Guys I couldn't resist.


And now for the turn for the worse
Heads are exploding as I type.


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

Cap-N-Red said:


> Noticed in the paper this morning. The fellow pleaded guilty and received a fine totaling $15,000 actual fine $5,000 and a community service fine of $10,000 to be paid to "Friends of Aransas and Matagorda Island Wildlife Refuge". What ever that is.


That's half of what it would have been had he been caught without turning himself in, plus no jail time.

Friends of Aransas and Matagorda Island Wildlife Refuge...

http://www.friendsofaransas.org/about


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## Dukman (Sep 21, 2007)

spurgersalty said:


> And now for the turn for the worse
> Heads are exploding as I type.


Naaaaa, the leader was to conspicuous and the hook not baited properly.


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## Xpress89 (Dec 20, 2012)

Dukman said:


> Naaaaa, the leader was to conspicuous and the hook not baited properly.


X2


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