# What are your Management Rules?



## geezuphosdn (Jun 5, 2006)

I'm trying to come up with some ideas for deer heard management for the land we lease. Currently there are no written/agreed upon rules but we all desire to have them. 

However, I want to be democratic about it and want to present the lease memebers with a list of items we can agree/vote on. What has worked well for your land in the past? What hasn't?

Obviously we are interested in bigger, healthier deer with better racks. We will kill all the does permited by law (30 in our case). 

Also, we lease 1600 acres, low fence, uvalde county.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

if it's brown it's down


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## BigBuck (Mar 2, 2005)

*Management*

I applaud your attempt to manage your deer herd. First thing is you need to know what you have in order to know what you need to remove. Kill 8 pts 3.5 years and older? Not if you do not have enough bucks there already. I am at work and do not have time to write a management program out, maybe others will. Numerous books on the subject, and you can always call T P & W for advise. Results will be better if you make a plan and stick to it that is designed for your land and your herd.
Good luck and good hunting.
BB


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

how many hunters ?


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## catchysumfishy (Jul 19, 2008)

No Browtine's G-1's = dirt nap! Where are you hunting?


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## Chunkn' Charlie (Dec 30, 2004)

You really need to inventory what you have. Set up game cams, video corned roads... That will give you a ball park figure on your buck:doe ratio. Try to get it down to 1:1. 

Try to develop buck habitat. cull out the does and freaks. since everyone has a different view on ,"what is a trophy," if you shoot a buck, you must have it mounted. Then everyone has to at least think before they pull the trigger.


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## catchysumfishy (Jul 19, 2008)

chunkn' charlie said:


> You really need to inventory what you have. Set up game cams, video corned roads... That will give you a ball park figure on your buck:doe ratio. Try to get it down to 1:1.
> 
> Try to develop buck habitat. cull out the does and freaks. since everyone has a different view on ,"what is a trophy," * if you shoot a buck, you must have it mounted*. Then everyone has to at least think before they pull the trigger.


I've done quite a few Europeans on animals that came from this-makes them learn for sure!


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

http://www.westerveltwildlife.com/

My buddy works for their branch in Alabama. Check them out... They can do alot of the stuff for you, if not at least point you in the right direction.

Wonderful group of folks in Texas region too....


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## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

Do not cull does until you have more than enough bucks!!


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

*i concure*



catchysumfishy said:


> No Browtine's G-1's = dirt nap! Where are you hunting?


WELL I AGREE ON THAT NO G-1'S = DIRT NAP 
2. if your south of 90 , 1 buck per 500 acer's , 1 trophy buck per 1000 
3. any thing over 8pt must be 5.5 yo UNLESS IT IS REAL CULL " you shoot a buck and let the group deside if its a you can stay next year " NO MISTACK BUCKS


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

To make it easier, go here http://www.westerveltwildlife.com/content/view/18/26/

Click on some of the menus on the left


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

pilar said:


> 1 buck per 500 acer's , 1 trophy buck per 1000


I would hate to be on that lease


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## Little-bit (Oct 19, 2005)

Rules for better deer management:
1. No spot lighting after 2am.
2. No beer drinking after 3am or before 6am.
3. All women are allowed. Except wives, girlfriends, or ken folks.
4. Bucks to be harvested must be at least eight points and out side the ears. (Unless taken at night)
5. Management bucks: spike w/5” tines or longer, 3+year old basket rack deer. (Does not apply to deer shot at night or taken with vehicle)
6. All vehicles on the lease must keep speeds below 50mph. (unless chasing something)
7.
8.


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## geezuphosdn (Jun 5, 2006)

We are north of 90 with 10 hunters


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

*wildlife managers rules*



justinsfa said:


> I would hate to be on that lease


it is 12000 ac so we get 1000ac per hunter 1 managment buck 1 trophy = 1 per 500 ac , it has worked out very well , but we do pay 8K per season . 
if you pull the trigger that is your deer . mess up once shame on you do it twice load your gear up by by , they weigh , score , age every buck as it goes out the gate , with recourd going back 10 years , needless to say this is a WELL MANAGED LEASE no tire kickers there :brew:


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## Charles Helm (Oct 22, 2004)

InfamousJ said:


> if it's brown it's down


Do you have trouble getting UPS to deliver to your house?


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## gordaflatsstalker (Jul 3, 2008)

I was reading an article in TTHA and Dr. James Kroll said that unless you have abolute control over your herd (high fence), regardless of size of tract you are hunting, you cannot truly manage the herd. Because, you cannot stop deer from coming in or leaving. You may pass on a 4 1/2 year old 160" deer only to have it jump the fence and get shot by your neighbor. You can kill all the 3 1/2 year old 8 pts you see and still have them on there. You have to absolute control over your herd to properly manage. IMO it's best to try to shoot deer that are 5 1/2 or older. The lease my buddy hunts on it's 6 1/2 and if you mistakingly shoot a young deer you are not allowed to shoot a trophy for every year it was short of 6 1/2.


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## geezuphosdn (Jun 5, 2006)

gordaflatsstalker said:


> I was reading an article in TTHA and Dr. James Kroll said that unless you have abolute control over your herd (high fence), regardless of size of tract you are hunting, you cannot truly manage the herd. Because, you cannot stop deer from coming in or leaving. You may pass on a 4 1/2 year old 160" deer only to have it jump the fence and get shot by your neighbor. You can kill all the 3 1/2 year old 8 pts you see and still have them on there. You have to absolute control over your herd to properly manage. IMO it's best to try to shoot deer that are 5 1/2 or older. The lease my buddy hunts on it's 6 1/2 and if you mistakingly shoot a young deer you are not allowed to shoot a trophy for every year it was short of 6 1/2.


I read the same article. However, we want to do our best. We know that shooting the best deer, if he's too young, is the wrong thing to do. And, we know we can't control what comes and goes. But if we decide on only shooting 4.5 year old, or must be mounted, etc and we start seeing a few better deer then our efforts were worth it.

I'm just looking for ideas that make sense. For instance:

No deer under 3.5 years old...except spikes.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

pilar said:


> it is 12000 ac so we get 1000ac per hunter 1 managment buck 1 trophy = 1 per 500 ac , it has worked out very well , but we do pay 8K per season .
> if you pull the trigger that is your deer . mess up once shame on you do it twice load your gear up by by , they weigh , score , age every buck as it goes out the gate , with recourd going back 10 years , needless to say this is a WELL MANAGED LEASE no tire kickers there :brew:


Oh, I misread into it... I thought you were posting a number of 1 buck for every 500 acres as an ideal deer count number....

I was thinking, Damnnn, thats worse than East Texas!


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## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

Deer can be managed on low fence areas, especially on larger tracks, I believe that there is a difference between management and deer farming. Would not want to hunt a deer I had absolute control over!!!!!!!


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## pacontender (Jun 26, 2004)

Are you saying kill a buck per 500 acres or maintain a buck per 500?



pilar said:


> 2. if your south of 90 , 1 buck per 500 acer's , 1 trophy buck per 1000
> 3. any thing over 8pt must be 5.5 yo UNLESS IT IS REAL CULL " you shoot a buck and let the group deside if its a you can stay next year " NO MISTACK BUCKS


First, like others have said, you need to have some sort of idea what your numbers are. Get a recomendation on the carrying cap. of the ranch. A deer per 15-20 acres is a fairly common target. That is the most important part IMHO.

Buck/doe ratio is next, and you need to decide how many of each you want to take to get your deer/acre where you want it.

Taking out the lower end of age classes if you have way too many deer is one method.

Don't go blasting away the very first weekend. Have everyone watch the deer and take pics/video if possible. See what the herd looks like. Get an idea of what traits you like and dislike in the herd. If you don't have many tens, then maybe leave all the tens. There are a million different views on this. Make a plan and try to stick with it.

It's going to be hard, but limiting taking a trophy per 1000 acres is a good rule of thumb. We don't kill trophies until they are 7. Your group has to decide what a "TROPHY" is. Your idea of a trophy isn't going to be the same as mine.

You have to be realistic in what kind of gains can be made on a smaller low fence place. Don't get discouraged and keep at it.


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## gordaflatsstalker (Jul 3, 2008)

Try to shoot deer that are 5 1/2 or older. They may be nice at 3 1/2 but let them get a couple years on them and they'll really be nice. It always makes me feel better to take a old deer. Another thing that helps is busting the h*!! out of some old does. I'm not saying that you can't manage low fence, and I didn't mean absolute control like pets. With a high fence, you know what you've got in there and don't have to worry about the neighbors. Low fence places can be managed but the main ingredient for all management IMO is age on the deer. Let it get old and he will have big horns.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

geezuphosdn said:


> I read the same article. However, we want to do our best. We know that shooting the best deer, if he's too young, is the wrong thing to do. And, we know we can't control what comes and goes. But if we decide on only shooting 4.5 year old, or must be mounted, etc and we start seeing a few better deer then our efforts were worth it.
> 
> I'm just looking for ideas that make sense. For instance:
> 
> No deer under 3.5 years old...except spikes.


If you are gonna go the Kroll way, you better think twice about shooting spikes...

He is an avid believer that spikes are not always doomed to be spikes and he has a ton of research to back it up.

Even 3.5 yr old spikes can be 150" deer at 4.5.


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

talk with the guys on the next ranch and stick with a game plane for both sides of the fence , I.E no feed 200 yard from any fence , and no hunting on the fence line " nothing is worse than to see one pass it then see neighbor harvest it " my group is 12 ft high fence 24000 ac total , neighbor is 57000 and paid for 1/2 of the fence , they killed a 190+ B&C that we videoed at 30ft while moveing blinds " a real jaw breaker "


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## gordaflatsstalker (Jul 3, 2008)

justinsfa said:


> If you are gonna go the Kroll way, you better think twice about shooting spikes...
> 
> He is an avid believer that spikes are not always doomed to be spikes and he has a ton of research to back it up.
> 
> Even 3.5 yr old spikes can be 150" deer at 4.5.


Yes. We used to shoot the spikes 2 1/2 year olds and up but started letting them walk and the truth is, we hardly ever the same spike year to year. So I believe that they do get real horns.


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## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

ours is
Trophy.....4.5 eight or better....1 allowed
Cull..........2.5 seven or less... or freak horns......2 allowed
Does........as many as you want
Mistakes on age of trophy.......no more bucks for the remainder of season
MLD III.......season from October to Feb


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## Jock Ewing (Mar 26, 2006)

The best management plan IMO is -- assuming you have enough bucks -- to cull the least desireable bucks in each age class. If you have 1.5 year old deer that are 4-8 points and you have 1.5 year old spikes, then take the spikes. Odds are, the 1.5 year olds with forked points -- on average -- will produce better racks than the 1.5 year old spikes (there are exceptions, but don't let exceptions drive your rules). But it all depends on what your herd composition is in a given year, so hard and fast rules aren't the way to go.

So the hunters need to know how to age and judge deer. IMO, the very best way to learn how to age and judge deer on the hoof is by reviewing pictures and video as a group. Try and encourage all hunters to put out game cams and take video cameras to the deer blind. Then you can discuss opinions on what you think each deer will score and age. You can also make group decisions on culls, trophies, or deer that should be allowed to mature. Print out pics of culls and hand them to hunters or guests who are going to hunt in the area. You do that and there will be a lot less mistakes.

Each ranch is different. So what might be a cull at one ranch is a trophy at another. The best advice I know is to take out the inferior deer in each age class and manage your buck doe ratio. If you can afford a helicopter survey, that will give you the best idea. If not, game cams and/or spot lighting at night before the season starts can give you an idea. Be sure to consult a game biologist. They can help you determine the # of bucks and does that need to be culled. This year may be less -- as dry as it has been in a lot of the state I am guessing the fawn crop survival rate was lower than normal.


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## thebach (Apr 13, 2005)

On a low fence property, be careful with those doe numbers. If the deer are free roaming and all your neighbors shoot the hell out of the does you will suffer.


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Depends on your target deer densities... your feeding program... type of browse you have available... what your "goals" are... 

Etc etc...

There are about 10,000 ways to manage a property... none of them 100% right... 

How well do you want to know the deer? How much do you care about the element of "suprise"? How well can your group age deer... even deer laying dead on the ground?

There is no need particularly to shoot "management" 8 pointers other than to give someone something to shoot... 

True "culls" are usually young (3 and 4 year old) and repeat type deer... and can be discussed over video with all the members present... there shouldn't be a limit on "culls"... even then you are doing more for the aesthetics than genetics of your deer herd.


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## SHURSHOT270 (Dec 28, 2007)

Just a few, culls need to be atleast 2 1/2. trophy's 6 1/2, no 1 1/2 year old bucks shot. Its just me and my dad and my brother so there is no limit on what we shoot or how many. We do let guests shoot only does, no bucks. 8pt's 3 1/2 or older are taken. We evaluate doe #'s every year from our survey's to see how many we need to take. Last year i think we took 23 does and 16 bucks. Every piece of property will be different, depending on many factors, like maybe if it's a lease, # of hunters, high or low fenced, acres per deer. good luck


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## geezuphosdn (Jun 5, 2006)

Thanks guys, i'm getting some good ideas here. just what i needed. Keep them coming.


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

justinsfa said:


> If you are gonna go the Kroll way, you better think twice about shooting spikes...
> 
> He is an avid believer that spikes are not always doomed to be spikes and he has a ton of research to back it up.
> 
> Even 3.5 yr old spikes can be 150" deer at 4.5.


I would say that is managing to the exception more than the rule.


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

geezuphosdn said:


> Thanks guys, i'm getting some good ideas here. just what i needed. Keep them coming.


If you agree to protein feed, set an agressive dollar amount up front that everyone puts in the kitty- Many feed stores will take that money and you can use it as a credit. They will usually lock you in on a set price by paying up front so you avoid unexpected feed price increase.

This avoids surprise calls from lease members saying they don't have money to keep feeding, etc...


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## catchysumfishy (Jul 19, 2008)

Main Frame 8 said:


> I would say that is managing to the exception more than the rule.


For me ,the risk of having a herd of 3.5 yr old spikes STINKS-been there done that and it took 13 years to get them down to manageable #'s!


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Main Frame 8 said:


> I would say that is managing to the exception more than the rule.


There are always gonna be exceptions like this though. It works both ways.... Eight pointers can be a spike the next year just as easy as a spike can be an eight point.

You cant go around judging your deer herd on antlers... its age and health.

Thats the whole point... a 1.5 year old might be a basket rack 10 point, and still a basketrack 10 point at 3.5 year olds and might still be basketrack 10 point at 6.5 years.... but do you still shoot it at 1.5 years old??? NOoooooooo.... you base your decision on age and general health just as much, if not more so, as antler size....


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## Titus Bass (Dec 26, 2008)

4 deer, no more than 2 bucks, and no more than 2 antlerless......

at least one unbranched antler, or
an inside spread of 13 inches or greater. The inside spread requirement does not apply to any buck that has an unbranched antler.
*Not more than one buck with an inside spread of 13 inches or greater may be taken. No matter the age of the buck.*

*Texas P&W management*


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

*titus what county are you talking about ?*



Titus Bass said:


> 4 deer, no more than 2 bucks, and no more than 2 antlerless......
> at least one unbranched antler, or
> an inside spread of 13 inches or greater. The inside spread requirement does not apply to any buck that has an unbranched antler.
> *Not more than one buck with an inside spread of 13 inches or greater may be taken. No matter the age of the buck.*
> ...


BULL , what county are you talking about or just something you made up?


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## catchysumfishy (Jul 19, 2008)

Titus Bass said:


> 4 deer, no more than 2 bucks, and no more than 2 antlerless......
> 
> at least one unbranched antler, or
> an inside spread of 13 inches or greater. The inside spread requirement does not apply to any buck that has an unbranched antler.
> ...


Hey Buddy, you need to get out more!


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## Zereaux (Jul 18, 2006)

Well that's right out of TP&W book for 2009-2010 season... 113 counties.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Lots of good info here so far but none of this takes the place of a good wildlife management plan being in place. Hire a qualified biologist to fly your survey, set out your goals and write a management plan that will get you there. This is the only way you will see the results that you are looking for. PM me if you need help finding biologists in your area.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I quit reading when you said you had 10 hunters on 1600 acres. No way to manage that unless lots of folks dont shoot. Too many deer being taken off of a place with that many hunters.

Charlie


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## catchysumfishy (Jul 19, 2008)

CHARLIE said:


> I quit reading when you said you had 10 hunters on 1600 acres. No way to manage that unless lots of folks dont shoot. Too many deer being taken off of a place with that many hunters.
> 
> Charlie


Ever hunted the hill country-back country? 1600 acres where i hunt is like 6000 acres of clean rolling hills! Just sayin....


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## BIG PAPPA (Apr 1, 2008)

*MY .02*

I say, assess your herd to start. pitch in and share a helicopter for an Hour or two and fly your grids and get a good idea of what is there ie:age mix, buck doe ratio, fawn count ect. Next, look the ranch over good as far as Browse, water, Plots ect. next get a good Biologist to eyeball your lease findings and give you an idea where to start with your rules. Your rules, with adequate information. when you have, the counts of animals, ratio's, what the land can handle(acres per animal), you are now making educated decisions on any and all rules you set. 
Most managed places i hunt say 4.5 year old 8's get ground checked, Buck to doe ratio's are kept at 1 to 1 or 1 to 1.5(but they know what is there).
also most places are 1 trophy and 1 cull(you decide what a cull is) because they get bigger as your management improves the herd.
so many ways, so many ideas, KEY is TO KNOW WHAT IS THERE.Before you make the rules.


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

*[email protected] book page 83*




catchysumfishy said:


> Hey Buddy, you need to get out more!


page 83 5 deer , or 3 bucks all season combined please correct me as i want to follow the law


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## gordaflatsstalker (Jul 3, 2008)

pilar said:


> page 83 5 deer , or 3 bucks all season combined please correct me as i want to follow the law


Different counties have different rules. You didn't think they were all the same?


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## Titus Bass (Dec 26, 2008)

pilar said:


> BULL , what county are you talking about or just something you made up?


Man......even I could not make up some of the shiest that comes out of Austin.....


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

*sorry i just follow my counties*



gordaflatsstalker said:


> Different counties have different rules. You didn't think they were all the same?


just follow webb La sall, dimmit , LoL after all they are the best he he :brew2:


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

*out in webb co check page 83 tp&w*



catchysumfishy said:


> Hey Buddy, you need to get out more!


sorry i am just hang out in some great deer country check out pg 83 TP&W 5 deer any sex


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## gordaflatsstalker (Jul 3, 2008)

pilar said:


> just follow webb La sall, dimmit , LoL after all they are the best he he :brew2:


To some. I hunt South Tx, too, but I loooooooooovvvvvvvvvveeeeeeee hunting the hill country. I've seen some deer up there that will rival South TX deer.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

justinsfa said:


> If you are gonna go the Kroll way, you better think twice about shooting spikes...
> 
> He is an avid believer that spikes are not always doomed to be spikes and he has a ton of research to back it up.
> 
> Even 3.5 yr old spikes can be 150" deer at 4.5.


Everything I am about to write is based on sound research from CKWRI and is available for reading.

In the ongoing S. Tex. Buck Capture project more than 1,000 wild known age bucks (.5 and 1.5) have been caught and recaptured at maturity. Off all of these deer, only *ONE *scored above 140" at 5.5yrs. old.

The average score for all bucks at maturity is 130" based again on this same project with known age deer.

This is the largest undertaking of wild deer research ever. There is a lot to be learned from this info.

2 points to take home:

1. Shoot deer with at least 1 unbranched antler at age 1.5 and older unless you want to manage your herd for average to below average deer b/c this is what they become.

2. The exception (Kroll's 150" spike) has no place in sound science. You cannot manage for exceptions. You must base sound management decisions on the averages.


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## catchysumfishy (Jul 19, 2008)

Titus Bass said:


> 4 deer, no more than 2 bucks, and no more than 2 antlerless......
> 
> at least one unbranched antler, or
> an inside spread of 13 inches or greater. The inside spread requirement does not apply to any buck that has an unbranched antler.
> ...





catchysumfishy said:


> Hey Buddy, you need to get out more!





pilar said:


> page 83 5 deer , or 3 bucks all season combined please correct me as i want to follow the law


This was NOT intended for you pilar,it was for the person i quoted "Titus" He is a pretty sharp feller not a pretty fart smeller! I can't figure you out , maybe your a nice person but you sure are weird "at least you type that way"! Maybe toooo many of these:brew2::brew2::brew2: hayell ,i don't know it's something though!


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## catchysumfishy (Jul 19, 2008)

catchysumfishy said:


> Hey Buddy, you need to get out more!





pilar said:


> sorry i am just hang out in some great deer country check out pg 83 TP&W 5 deer any sex


Once AGAIN pilar, this wasn't quoted to you! sad3sm


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## gordaflatsstalker (Jul 3, 2008)

1 1/2 yrs. old is too young to take any bucks. Too many factors that can contribute to their antlers. What if the deer was born late? What if it was a drought year? If you shot all young spikes, you could essentially wipe out a generation of bucks.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

gordaflatsstalker said:


> 1 1/2 yrs. old is too young to take any bucks. Too many factors that can contribute to their antlers. What if the deer was born late? What if it was a drought year? If you shot all young spikes, you could essentially wipe out a generation of bucks.


X2... thats more along the lines of what I was ensenuating in my posts.... Dont just go blasting away at anything that isnt more than 3 points.... you need to assess their age rather than antlers....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Cynoscion said:


> Everything I am about to write is based on sound research from CKWRI and is available for reading.
> 
> In the ongoing S. Tex. Buck Capture project more than 1,000 wild known age bucks (.5 and 1.5) have been caught and recaptured at maturity. Off all of these deer, only *ONE *scored above 140" at 5.5yrs. old.
> 
> ...


I guess I am missing something.... based on the research, where does the Spike info come into play... Spikes are never even mentioned....

As a matter of fact, what in the world does it mean??? 1000 bucks are caught at age 0.5-1.5.

All 1000 are recaught at maturity and avg 130" with only one being over 140"....

Annnnnnnd????


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## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

gordaflatsstalker said:


> 1 1/2 yrs. old is too young to take any bucks. Too many factors that can contribute to their antlers. What if the deer was born late? What if it was a drought year? If you shot all young spikes, you could essentially wipe out a generation of bucks.


X2

On a new piece of land that might have been shot out of bucks, I find that the ratio turns around faster if the does are allowed to have a few years to throw fawns before they have the heck managed out of them. Get some bucks on the ground before you get rid of where they come from!


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## Jfreeman (Nov 3, 2004)

Get the herd within or under the carrying capacity of the property

Start a feed program. Foodplots, pellets or both.

Get your buck/doe ratio wherever you would like it. 1:1, 1:1.5, etc

I don't shoot any deer under 3yrs old, but shoot alot at 3 yrs old.

Trophies should be 6yrs or older.

Define what a cull is for your property. Don't set a number, all culls should be shot on site once it's defined what a cull is for your ranch.

Look at your age structure. How many bucks you have in each age class.

These are just some very basic things i use. Each ranch needs a different managment plan depending on many variables and the goals of the program.


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## blackhogdog (Jul 20, 2009)

CHARLIE said:


> I quit reading when you said you had 10 hunters on 1600 acres. No way to manage that unless lots of folks dont shoot. Too many deer being taken off of a place with that many hunters.
> 
> Charlie


Exactly, why did nobody else but Charile say this asap, I have a bulldozer and fencepost slammer I rent out to ranches who get a lease group like yours next to them, waste of time to think this is anything but a wack and stack lease. too many hunters and shallow pocket books, bet its a nightmare to anybody next door when they see all of the hunters next to them opening season, some day it will be all fenced off due to this, I cantwait, I think i will buy another bulldozer n t post driver!!! lol

Good call Charile, as usual!!!!


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

If the land owner was really into management or cared about the deer population or herd he would have no more than 3 hunters on 1600 acres. He puts the price where he wants it and then puts bunches of hunters on it to bring the price per hunter down. SOS thats gone on for years. Manage that, not a chance.

Charlie


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## rio frio (Jan 12, 2005)

Take lots of does and get the carrying capacity of the land under control.....Uvalde County has been in a drought for 2 years now..my advice about bucks would be unpopular...shoot only culls this year.By reducing the does and cull bucks that will leave the remaining deer another year to turn into better Quality animals...that is If your really serious about LONGTERM... Now to give you my opinion....theres a lot of truth to what Charlie said...a lot of ranchers are more interested in managing their bank account than the deer heard.Hes right .....SOS that has gone on for years.....and If yours is one of "them" your fighting an uphill battle....as soon as you do get the herd managed and shoot a "trophy" he'll jack up the price....you dont pay it someone else will...you'll see 5/6 years of building the herd go down the toilet...Ranchers love Management hunters....


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## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

blackhogdog
charlie
rio frio

X2 nuff said good to hear some common sense


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

blackhogdog said:


> Exactly, why did nobody else but Charile say this asap, I have a bulldozer and fencepost slammer I rent out to ranches who get a lease group like yours next to them, waste of time to think this is anything but a wack and stack lease. too many hunters and shallow pocket books, bet its a nightmare to anybody next door when they see all of the hunters next to them opening season, some day it will be all fenced off due to this, I cantwait, I think i will buy another bulldozer n t post driver!!! lol
> 
> Good call Charile, as usual!!!!


Maybe its a regional thing, but 10 hunters on 1600 acres is not over-hunting in my book...

Especially if you go by personal ranch bag limits and not TPWD limits for the county....

Is it just an east tx thing???


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## FormerHR (May 21, 2004)

Wow, you've got plenty of reading. I made it through page 1 and that was enough. All of our deer, like some of the others here, are scored and aged by a biologist. The biologist also takes several surveys (including helicopter) and sets the harvest for each lease on the property. This ranch is several thousands acres.

Our lease: 1 trophy / 1 cull / .66 does

*Trophy:* 10 or better 5 1/2 years. If you shoot one under 5 1/2 there is a one year trophy penalty for each year. If you do shoot one the guys aren't hard on you. If it's a trophy you're willing to sit out for then "lay him down".

*Culls:* Preferably 3.5 years and 8 points and under and shot before Thanksgiving (to try and keep from spreading the genes). If it's a "trophy" 8 (huge, drop tines kickers) they'd "prefer" you wait until he's 5 1/2.

*Does: *Shot before Thanksgiving. The .66 does is due to our population based on the surveys. We have 9 guys on our lease and 6 does this year.

*Spikes: *None. We don't see many, in fact any. If you do see a legitimate 4.5 year old freak spike you can talk to the biologist and he'll say to take him.


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## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

I think all ten would get plenty of deer as long as it was low fenced and the neighbors were trying to raise some mature deer.


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## catchysumfishy (Jul 19, 2008)

justinsfa said:


> Maybe its a regional thing, but 10 hunters on 1600 acres is not over-hunting in my book...
> 
> Especially if you go by personal ranch bag limits and not TPWD limits for the county....
> 
> Is it just an east tx thing???


It all just depends on where you are hunting as far as hunters /acres! South Texas 30' tall blinds 1/1000 or in that area! But then again you'll have the non managed leases down there and they will be elbow to elbow!


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Cynoscion said:


> Everything I am about to write is based on sound research from CKWRI and is available for reading.
> 
> In the ongoing S. Tex. Buck Capture project more than 1,000 wild known age bucks (.5 and 1.5) have been caught and recaptured at maturity. Off all of these deer, only *ONE *scored above 140" at 5.5yrs. old.
> 
> ...


Explain to me my 142" average last year over 55 deer without having shot spikes for 9 years as of last year...

Management for Trophies IS management for exceptions... because that is what people are trying for...

Averages are for the State... individual deer progression and assessment is for the deer HERD manager.

I don't want to argue with CKWRI... they do a lot of great work... a lot... I look forward to reading their newsletters and email postings every release... and I do not doubt the results of their study...

But if that study is used to imply that not taking spike bucks as yearlings leads to a mediocre deer herd... I'm going to speak up. Nothing could be farther from the truth.


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## catchysumfishy (Jul 19, 2008)

Encinal said:


> Explain to me my 142" average last year over 55 deer without having shot spikes for 9 years as of last year...
> 
> Management for Trophies IS management for exceptions... because that is what people are trying for...
> 
> Averages are for the State... individual deer progression and assessment is for the deer HERD manager.


How many long horned mature spikes do you see on your place? Just askin?


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

catchysumfishy said:


> How many long horned mature spikes do you see on your place? Just askin?


Mature spikes? I'm talking about yearling spikes... a true spike (2 points) above 2.5 years old is a very rare thing...

Most mature "spikes" with one spiked antler above 1.5 are subject to removal in my system... this excludes deer that I feel have had damage to their antler or an illness.


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## catchysumfishy (Jul 19, 2008)

Encinal said:


> Mature spikes? I'm talking about yearling spikes... a true spike (2 points) above 2.5 years old is a very rare thing...
> 
> Most mature "spikes" with one spiked antler above 1.5 are subject to removal in my system... this excludes deer that I feel have had damage to their antler or an illness.


That is what i was thinking but you never know these day's-yerlin spikes definitely walk for me! That is why i don't care for the Extended spike season,it doesn't have any clarifications in it and a lot of potential good deer get taken out then!


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## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

Mature spikes, there are more anterlered does than spikes over 1.5 years old, have had beginnig hunters say well, it was 5,7,9, inches so it must of been an old spike, if it has a neck like a doe and is about the same size as a doe it is not mature, leave it alone unless you want some good meat.


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## geezuphosdn (Jun 5, 2006)

blackhogdog said:


> Exactly, why did nobody else but Charile say this asap, I have a bulldozer and fencepost slammer I rent out to ranches who get a lease group like yours next to them, waste of time to think this is anything but a wack and stack lease. too many hunters and shallow pocket books, bet its a nightmare to anybody next door when they see all of the hunters next to them opening season, some day it will be all fenced off due to this, I cantwait, I think i will buy another bulldozer n t post driver!!! lol
> 
> Good call Charile, as usual!!!!


Charlie and Blackhogdog, I'm not interested in whether or not YOU think we should spend our time & money managing our place. I simply wanted to know what YOUR management plans are on YOUR place (just like the thread title says). I am simply gather ideas. Are you saying we shouldn't even try?

However, I will tell you this. We have been managing & aggressively feeding protein and cotton seed for 5 years. Each of the last 3 years have produced the biggest deer killed on the place in 25 years. Each year, we can see (via pictures and surveys) our deer getter fatter, older, and bigger racks....we must be doing something right. My intention is to improve upon our current management plan.

With that said, I appreciate everyone elses input.


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

The ability to have higher densities and produce the number of trophies per acre that your lease structure requires is entirely possible... But like you said it is going to require a lot of feed. Don't have the experience you do feeding low fence... Getting there... But you should be holdind quite a bit more deer... Especially in drought situations.

It's hard high fence partway through a feed program and probably low fence the whole time to decide what is a "management". You are going to have deer that are heavy on Feed and deer that aren't on at all. That 140" 8 off d
feed could be a 160" ten on... So genetically it is even more pointless to set antler criteria standards for middle of the road deer.


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## Tiny (Dec 19, 2006)

The ranch I've been hunting for the last 7 years is under strict management.
They have 11,000 acres of high fence, (I really wish I could go more than once a year, but hey... it's free.) They get a survey done every year, and are told by a biologist what needs to be killed. Right now, as has been for the last six years, they are looking to Breed 10 point or better so.. We can kill (1) Main frame 9 point or below, 5.5 years old, (1) Nerd, young or old, preferrably older if you see one. (A nerd would be a spike, 3 pt., crab clawed 4pt, or just plain goofy looking) and (1) or (2) does, depending on the population.

My best practice is to shoot the oldest deer I can get, as long as it is within' antler restrictions.


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## geezuphosdn (Jun 5, 2006)

thank you tiny...exactly the ideas i was looking for. Greenies to guys that provided answered the questions.


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## Chunkn' Charlie (Dec 30, 2004)

rio frio said:


> Take lots of does and get the carrying capacity of the land under control.....Uvalde County has been in a drought for 2 years now..my advice about bucks would be unpopular...shoot only culls this year.By reducing the does and cull bucks that will leave the remaining deer another year to turn into better Quality animals...that is If your really serious about LONGTERM... Now to give you my opinion....theres a lot of truth to what Charlie said...a lot of ranchers are more interested in managing their bank account than the deer heard.Hes right .....SOS that has gone on for years.....and If yours is one of "them" your fighting an uphill battle....as soon as you do get the herd managed and shoot a "trophy" he'll jack up the price....you dont pay it someone else will...you'll see 5/6 years of building the herd go down the toilet...Ranchers love Management hunters....


I had the same thing happen to me in the Hill Country. As soon as we developed 10pt bucks...the lease was sold out from under us.

Get a contract for the hunting rights


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## "Reddrum" (Dec 15, 2005)

Encinal said:


> Mature spikes? I'm talking about yearling spikes... a true spike (2 points) above 2.5 years old is a very rare thing...
> 
> Most mature "spikes" with one spiked antler above 1.5 are subject to removal in my system... this excludes deer that I feel have had damage to their antler or an illness.


Well said - it's important to differentiate between a 1.5 yr old spike and a 2.5+ yr old. We give all yearling bucks the benefit of the doubt and let them go at least 1 more year and usually 2 before removing them for "genetic" reasons.

Back to the main question - A mgmt plan starts at the highest level taking into consideration the financial commitment of your hunters which will impact everything you do. Then factor in high or low fenced, realistic mgmt goals, current herd characteristics including sex, age class, buck/doe ratio and antler characteristics. Then land mgmt such as native browse, cover, water, etc. and predator mgmt. From all that you'll come up with your land mgmt program, supplemental feeding plan and finally your harvest plan.

If you're low fenced like we are then talk to the ranches around you and see what they're doing to manage the herd and what they're harvesting from year to year. Understand it's a shared resource so your plan will be impacted by what goes on outside your fence but that's part of the game.

Rinse and repeat annually.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Geezuphosdn

Didnt mean to upset you my friend. Sure if you feed enough and the genetics are there feeding helps. But to hunt 10 guys on 1600 acres is way out of line but thats why there are Fords and Chevy's. What ever makes you happy. You never said what yall were paying per gun or per acre. But thats your business. You can also have fat deer too. What has been your best antler score so far in all the years yall have been feeding protien or cottonseed ? I wish you the best and I appreciate someone trying to "enhance" their deer population. Good luck.

Charlie


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

On our Sonora lease and we all know about the size deer that area produces.
A monster would be 150 , but I havent seen one yet. But we have killed several 140's and quite a few 130's and 20's.
So if its mature and scores less than 110 we try to take it if the hunter chooses.
Mistakes are made and thats hunting. No one is penalized for that unless it was an ongoing problem.
But none so far in my few years on the lease.
We have WAAAYYYY more bucks than doe so thats not a problem...


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

There has been a lot of reference to CKWRI South Texas Buck Capture Project, so, I thought I would post links for everyone to see all the data.

Rather than hijack this thread, I just started a new one here:

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?p=2312858#post2312858


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## Swampus (Sep 1, 2005)

My idea of good management:

*Take out the older 8's (3.5-4.5) 1 per hunter
*Shoot for a Trophy 10 or better 5.5 yr. old or older 1 per hunter
*smack all "Funky" horn bucks
*Control the Doe population as needed
*KILL every hog.............................
*Feed year round with protein and leave the corn slinging at least 3 sec. for draw
*Set up alot of game cams and talk about the herd with the others and stay on the same page on the ranch for quality deer.

Good luck Hombre!

swamp


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## texas8point (Dec 18, 2006)

If its 3.5 + its fair game.....


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Encinal said:


> Explain to me my 142" average last year over 55 deer without having shot spikes for 9 years as of last year...
> 
> Management for Trophies IS management for exceptions... because that is what people are trying for...
> 
> ...


I think the best thing to take away from those findings is that under normal open range conditions, yearling spikes never catch up (with regard to antler quality) to their fork antlered counterparts for whatever reason (late born, malnurished, poor genetics, whatever). B/c they never catch I see them as taking up space, eating precious food that better deer could eat, etc. That being said:

What I know of your program is far that it is far from normal open range conditions. Most of your deer LIVE on an excellent diet year round so that even if a spike is the result of one of the factors mentioned above, on your place, he has the ability to over come those factors and turn out to be a good deer. In other words, the exception in this study could be the rule under intense management.

I also agree that we should manage toward the above average, exceptional deer but what was stated earlier is that there is alway a chance that the spike will be a 150" deer. This is the wrong exception to manage for. For every spike that matures into a good deer, 200 will be mature junk. I would rather shoot them at 1.5 then wait until they are 3.5 or older. That equals to 2 years of regression in the management program.


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## gordaflatsstalker (Jul 3, 2008)

Don't you know culling doesn't affect antler size. That's what CKWRI said.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

One thing no one has mentioned is that the doe has just as much genetically to do with the fawns birthed as the buck does. You can kill off every spike, 8pt or other percieived inferior deer on a place and in a couple of years you will have to start over again. If just starting out, I would put as much emphasis on killing off old does as cull bucks. It will take 4 or 5 years to make a big difference but we have seen it on our low-fenced ranch.

And Charlie, if we only had 1 hunter per 1000 acres where we hunt, we could not get anything done


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

I just don't know about shooting young spikes. I bought a doe with very good genetics and she was bred to a double drop 12 point that scored in the high one hundreds. She had a buck fawn, and he is now 1 1/2. He is a spike. 

Since he hangs around the house with her all the time, I am taking his picture and lets see what he does next year.


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## Encinal (Jan 18, 2008)

Cynoscion said:


> I think the best thing to take away from those findings is that under normal open range conditions, yearling spikes never catch up (with regard to antler quality) to their fork antlered counterparts for whatever reason (late born, malnurished, poor genetics, whatever). B/c they never catch I see them as taking up space, eating precious food that better deer could eat, etc. That being said:
> 
> *What I know of your program is far that it is far from normal open range conditions. Most of your deer LIVE on an excellent diet year round so that even if a spike is the result of one of the factors mentioned above, on your place, he has the ability to over come those factors and turn out to be a good deer. In other words, the exception in this study could be the rule under intense management.*
> 
> I also agree that we should manage toward the above average, exceptional deer but what was stated earlier is that there is alway a chance that the spike will be a 150" deer. This is the wrong exception to manage for. For every spike that matures into a good deer, 200 will be mature junk. I would rather shoot them at 1.5 then wait until they are 3.5 or older. That equals to 2 years of regression in the management program.


I find it interesting that this study backs off the "genetic" aspect of a spike's inferiority and now just claims that they should be taken regardless to make room... I'd like to see the raw data... know the capture methods... the frequency of recapture etc... a 44% death loss to maturity is way, way too high in my experience...

I think this is really shoving a square peg in a round hole... trying to make the 20% of every age class harvest model work...

As to my program... I don't know that state programs know much about feeding period... they haven't studied it much... certainly not as much as they have studied the spike issue...

I think there is a huge difference between science and application... Just because something may look right on paper... doesn't mean it actually works in the real world... It's almost impossible to remove all the variables in a study in the wild that can taint a result...

But think about it this way... "if" under intense management the exception is the rule and on large tracts it would be almost impossible to shoot enough spikes to make a difference (King Ranch)... where is the middle ground where you should?

You don't have to have a protein feeder to every 10 acres to have a spike blow up... you have to have 1 spike that goes to that 1 protein feeder that you have EVERY DAY...

Which one is most likely to get shot by a hunter? The one that is at the feeder every day...

It's a lot more complicated than just the raw science of it...


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Haute

Our rule of thumb is 1 trophy buck per about 600 acres not a 1,000. 10 hunters on 1600 acres means if every hunter killed what he called a trophy thats one per 160 acres plus does and management bucks. Sorry that just wont work. If they are really serious that is the one thing they can do is remove hunters and have immediate results. That all I was saying. His place is low fenced also so there is no way to cram feed down the deer to enhance the herd in any way. I wish him luck and hope everything turned out for them..

This is another good reading post. lots of good info out there. Oh yeah we dont shoot yearlin spikes. And yes the doe has plenty to do with the offspring. Best I recall its about 60 % buck and 40 % doe. And our year is going to be bad (as expected) due to the extreme drouth in South Texas. Good luck to all.

Charlie


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## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

I do not believe in cull bucks... I have had hunters pay the same trophy fee for spikes as for deer headed to the muy grande contest, one wanted the smallest we could find which was a 6 month old with diamond points, probably very good genetics, another hunter wanted the biggest spike we could find, now that was a trophy hunt! It took quit a bit of hunting but found him one about 3 years old with main beams no points. I can send corners out at 4 in the morning, and following them at sun up, have them stay a few hours ahead of me, Start down around the Mansfield/ Raymondville area go from the mesquite country on up well into the oak country, back down on the coastal side of the ranch, to the mesquite area, will see thousands of deer, hundereds of mature bucks, one or two horned does, that I have noticed are a bit rare, a few perfectly symetric 6x6's and maybe a 7x7, these I find to be rare in a low fence environment, of coarse hundereds of basic 8's and 10's with varying degrees of kickers, but a true mature spike is very very rare.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Your figures are true in some areas of the state Charlie ole buddy, but in others the carrying capacity of the land is higher and in others lower. It all depends on where you hunt and what the land supports. Our last spotlight survey on our place in Junction was 135 deer on 1600 acres. The ranch has heavy cover and lots of draws/canyons so no telling how many were missed. We draw alot of deer from the surrounding places because they don't feed year round and because of the Llano River frontage.


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## nhampton (Aug 8, 2007)

You need to figure out what your goals are as a group, look at what you have to work with (low fence, livestock stocking rate and type, habitat quality, etc), land owner cooperation, the amount and quality of deer herd present, and extent of supplemental feeding you are willing to do. Once you have the answers to these questions, I'd contact Kerr Wildlife Management Area and talk to the regional biologist and see if he couldn't give you advice on how to get to where you want to be.

Every property and hunting group is different so the goals and solutions to those goals will be different. Just something to keep in mind, the primary purpose is the hunt and all the aesthetic benefits therein, the secondary is the size of the trophy.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Haute

Almost 1 deer per 12 acres. Thats a bunch my friend. I know different areas do better in supporting deer. Yall I bet are feeding a bunch. Good luck. I bet we have a bunch of spikes this year because of the drouth if we have any at all.

Charlie


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

CHARLIE said:


> Haute
> 
> Almost 1 deer per 12 acres. Thats a bunch my friend. I know different areas do better in supporting deer. Yall I bet are feeding a bunch. Good luck. I bet we have a bunch of spikes this year because of the drouth if we have any at all.
> 
> Charlie


We have fed over 16 tons of protein this year and have been real lucky with the rains we have gotten. Grass was knee deep last weekend. Totally different story from last year. We haven't had it near as bad as y'all have. I was down in Port Mansfield last month and the deer I saw were all real poor.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Haute

Ok my friend I know things will be good for yall and keep up the good work. Good huntin. Ya know I should check and see how much we have fed but i am afraid to.. Se ya 

Charlie


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

gordaflatsstalker said:


> Don't you know culling doesn't affect antler size. That's what CKWRI said.


What they actually said was culling didn't work in THEIR study.

We went over that with our biologist on Thursday and he said that there were several factors in that study that affected those results.

I won't go over them all, but, he said even Mickey acknowledges that as you increase the intensity of culling, the more effective it becomes.


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

CHARLIE said:


> Haute
> 
> Our rule of thumb is 1 trophy buck per about 600 acres not a 1,000. 10 hunters on 1600 acres means if every hunter killed what he called a trophy thats one per 160 acres plus does and management bucks. Sorry that just wont work. If they are really serious that is the one thing they can do is remove hunters and have immediate results. That all I was saying. His place is low fenced also so there is no way to cram feed down the deer to enhance the herd in any way. I wish him luck and hope everything turned out for them..
> 
> ...


Charlie,

I believe, 1 trophy for every 500-1000 acres (depending on deer density) is a very good rule of thumb. However, the number of hunters on a piece of property doesn't really matter if everyone follows strict guidelines. In today's economy, you almost have to raise the number of hunters on a ranch to make it somewhat affordable. Most people can't afford to pay $10K per gun. In our case, we have more than 1 hunter per 500 acres. We offer everybody the "opportunity" at a trophy. However, realistically we all know the ranch will only produce so many per year and not everybody will kill one. It's all about the quality and commitment of the guys you hunt with.

I hunted a ranch several years ago were we effectively had 1 hunter per 200 acres. Some years we killed more than 1 trophy per 500 acres, and some years we killed less. It varied from year to year, but, as a group we adhered to very strict guidelines. In 5 years, I killed 1 deer over 8 points. But, it was affordable, I enjoyed/trusted the guys I hunted with, and it all worked really well.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Txpalerider

Yes sir I agree with you as long as the hunters understand there are not enough "trophies" to go around and someone will not be able to harvest one.Also land owner must be in agreement too. Heck if you have ten hunters and say maybe 3 or 4 shoot and everyone is happy then its all good. Good huntin.

Charlie


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