# Best .45 acp round?



## Raptured (Jan 3, 2013)

I am looking for the best .45 acp round available for self defense and would like some input of those who have knowledge and are familiar with this round. And if anyone knows why the .45 is not in use with our armed forces anymore? Thanks


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

Borrowed from another website. The doc that did the tests works for the Navy doing ballistic research and wound casualty care. Also a reserve LEO. 

Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP 
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP 
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

They went away from the 45 in order to be NATO compliant and to allow for more capacity. More troops can handle the 9mm recoil better than the .45. Some units still use the .45 like MARSOC.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Well the best IMHO is the round that was used in the original 45.

230 grain ball. Gets the job done and is reliable.

Regarding armed forces switching, as above it was to become more NATO compliant but it appears the guys who have any say so in choosing what they carry its the 45. 
They know best.


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

All pistol rounds suck for stopping threats no matter what the caliber is or bullet design. Might as well get the most velocity and expansion you can get. Large temporary wound cavity and big holes to let air in and blood out is ideal.


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## Capt Scott Reeh (Jan 21, 2006)

Ran into a guy that was in Special Ops in Irag and he said that they ( most of them ) were carrying Glock 21's( for capacity and reliability ) He stated that the M92 was not getting the job done and the reliability was not there.


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## Pocketfisherman (May 30, 2005)

I like the Cor-Bon +P JHP's. Firing into gallon water jugs gives very nice expansion from a commander length barreled 1911.


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## jamisjockey (Jul 30, 2009)

Whatever you buy, run a few boxes through your gun to make sure it works. My 1911 loves hornady critical defense and "zombie max", but jams on hornady xtp.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

jamisjockey said:


> Whatever you buy, run a few boxes through your gun to make sure it works. My 1911 loves hornady critical defense and "zombie max", but jams on hornady xtp.


This: the original design was built for hardball: the feed ramps sometime have a hard time with some of the more "creative" bullet profiles... The Golden Sabers do a pretty good job "emulating" the hardball profile, as do the Winchester SXT's or whatever that is that the black talons turned into when the whiners kicked in.. I use federal hydrashocks in mine, but I've seen a gun or two that chokes on them..


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

dwilliams35 said:


> This: the original design was built for hardball: the feed ramps sometime have a hard time with some of the more "creative" bullet profiles... The Golden Sabers do a pretty good job "emulating" the hardball profile, as do the Winchester SXT's or whatever that is that the black talons turned into when the whiners kicked in.. I use federal hydrashocks in mine, but I've seen a gun or two that chokes on them..


Mine does on XTPs ( right), but eats the Gold Dots up and chits them out like nobodies business.
I have to give a "helping" nudge to the slide to engage the XTPs.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Pic of difference in nose cone
XTP on the left, Speer Gold Dot on the right.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

I haven't had much experience with those xtp's, but these are the SXT's I'm talking about:










They're sold as LE ammo now, but I've never had a problem running them either..

Remington Golden Saber:


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## loco4fishn (May 17, 2010)

I don't want to hijack this thread but has any one ever had any experience with Atomic +p 230 grain Hp. Specs say 1000fps and 510 ft lbs of energy. Seems like a pretty good round for self defense.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Well really for the best one that does a lot damage is a 185 grain wad cutter reloaded with a gas check. Punches a perfect almost 1/2 inch hole in whatever you shoot. Reliability could be a problem tho. Jus sayin.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

CHARLIE said:


> Well really for the best one that does a lot damage is a 185 grain wad cutter reloaded with a gas check. Punches a perfect almost 1/2 inch hole in whatever you shoot. Reliability could be a problem tho. Jus sayin.


 The point isn't to punch a perfect .45" entrance hole. The "point" happens beyond that, and wadcutters don't hold a candle to the ammo we've been talking about. They're meant to kill paper: terminal ballistics aren't really their strong point compared to the real-deal bullets that are available now, no matter how many old guys there are out there spreading stories about how they used to load them backwards, etc..


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

dwilliams

IMHO the perfect hole continues complety though whatever you shoot not just on the entry area. And thats not all bad. You wanna compare "shock" just compare the frontal area of a wadcutter compared to one of the super bullets you refer to. When they finally open (if they do) they might equal the frontal area of a wadcutter. Jus sayin.


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## DIHLON (Nov 15, 2009)

Bantam1 said:


> *All pistol rounds suck for stopping threats no matter what the caliber is or bullet design*. Might as well get the most velocity and expansion you can get. Large temporary wound cavity and big holes to let air in and blood out is ideal.


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

Do you disagree? Watch this video:


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## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

I spoke to a SWAT officer years a go, that said he shot and guy close range in the hand that was bringing up his pistol.

The force of that .45 bullet pushed his hand back, and planted his face in the dirt.

The point of the story is, if you make contact with a 200-230 grain bullet, it will generally put them down right then.

ON a side note:
We spend all this time, finding the right pistol, the right bullet, and the right accesories, and we never really know what or how the gun fight will take place or how your body will react.
And shooting a few 100 rounds at the indoor range is not enough practice.
_I am doing a class in 2 weeks out at the impact zone near waller where they tell us to bring approx 1000 rds. of ammo, and be ready to use them all in different scenerios._


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

I agree with using the heaviest and largest bullet you can get away with. But with modern bullets in handguns they are all pretty much equal. The nod goes to .40 and .45 for better barrier penetration. I have a few friends that are LE here in CA. One of them has shot 4 people in the line of duty with a 9mm. They all died. His partner shot one scumbag with a .45 in the chest and it didnt stop him. A 9mm round connected from my buddy and stopped him and killed him. The round entered his heart and ended the fight. Shot placement is key over anything else.

The other is SWAT for a different department. His partner shot a scumbag at a few yards with a .40. One round passed through his wrist, deflected and entered his opposite shoulder instead of his chest. He took another 4 to the chest. The guy was cuffed and taken to the hospital and survived. He said the guy was able to carry a conversation like he wasn't even shot.

Look at the mother in GA that shot the perp 5 times at close range with a .38. He left and drove away before crashing. He is still alive. Or this guy that took 17 hits from a .45:

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2012/02/shots-fired-skokie-illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

I know there are a whole lot of people in this world no longer breathing because of the .45. I am a firm believer in that round. I am just saying that pistols in general are poor fight stoppers.


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## DIHLON (Nov 15, 2009)

Bantam1 said:


> I agree with using the heaviest and largest bullet you can get away with. But with modern bullets in handguns they are all pretty much equal. The nod goes to .40 and .45 for better barrier penetration. I have a few friends that are LE here in CA. One of them has shot 4 people in the line of duty with a 9mm. They all died. His partner shot one scumbag with a .45 in the chest and it didnt stop him. A 9mm round connected from my buddy and stopped him and killed him. The round entered his heart and ended the fight. Shot placement is key over anything else.
> 
> The other is SWAT for a different department. His partner shot a scumbag at a few yards with a .40. One round passed through his wrist, deflected and entered his opposite shoulder instead of his chest. He took another 4 to the chest. The guy was cuffed and taken to the hospital and survived. He said the guy was able to carry a conversation like he wasn't even shot.
> 
> ...


What do you suggest then? For CC, .45 is about the best you can do. I can't carry a 12 gauge on me, nor can anyone else. I do want to get one for home protection, but for now, the .45 acp with 15 rounds locked and loaded will do.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

CHARLIE said:


> dwilliams
> 
> IMHO the perfect hole continues complety though whatever you shoot not just on the entry area. And thats not all bad. You wanna compare "shock" just compare the frontal area of a wadcutter compared to one of the super bullets you refer to. When they finally open (if they do) they might equal the frontal area of a wadcutter. Jus sayin.


The minimum "frontal area" is higher on ANY bullet than it is a wadcutter: they've got a profile to them, the wadcutter is simply by comparison a flat disk that is .45 in diameter.. Wadcutters aren't built for any expansion whatsoever: the self-defense bullets do a pretty reliable job of expansion, and ALL of them can and will expand to a spectacular level when compared to a wadcutter. There is a huge amount of what is basically old wives' tales about wadcutters as self-defense bullets, going back to the thirties or so when they WERE a legitimate choice when compared to the hardball that was the standard round. They are woefully inferior to the self-defense ammo that is out there today, though..

And by the way, if a bullet goes completely through what you are shooting, you are wasting energy. The perfect level of penetration stops at the surface on the exit side.. That means it's expended 100% of its energy in the target and has caused a wound channel to that point. If you have an exit wound, there is energy that is not being transferred to the target.


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

DIHLON said:


> What do you suggest then? For CC, .45 is about the best you can do. I can't carry a 12 gauge on me, nor can anyone else. I do want to get one for home protection, but for now, the .45 acp with 15 rounds locked and loaded will do.


I say stick with what you have and find the best ammunition that your gun likes. Then practice a lot with it. My self defense pistol at home is an HK USP .45 loaded with Federal 230 grain HST + P. I run Speer 124 grain Gold Dot +P in my Glock 17 when I travel. Sorry I sorta went off topic. My original list that was posted are all the better rounds for self defense.


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## jamisjockey (Jul 30, 2009)

dwilliams35 said:


> The minimum "frontal area" is higher on ANY bullet than it is a wadcutter: they've got a profile to them, the wadcutter is simply by comparison a flat disk that is .45 in diameter.. Wadcutters aren't built for any expansion whatsoever: the self-defense bullets do a pretty reliable job of expansion, and ALL of them can and will expand to a spectacular level when compared to a wadcutter. There is a huge amount of what is basically old wives' tales about wadcutters as self-defense bullets, going back to the thirties or so when they WERE a legitimate choice when compared to the hardball that was the standard round. They are woefully inferior to the self-defense ammo that is out there today, though..
> 
> And by the way, if a bullet goes completely through what you are shooting, you are wasting energy. The perfect level of penetration stops at the surface on the exit side.. That means it's expended 100% of its energy in the target and has caused a wound channel to that point. If you have an exit wound, there is energy that is not being transferred to the target.


Hear hear.


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## Bearwolf34 (Sep 8, 2005)

I'll take my 200gr XTP's with a stout dose of power pistol powder.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Bantam1 said:


> I am just saying that pistols in general are poor fight stoppers.


 The problem is that you just stir up so much hubbub when you walk around in public with an M1 Garand, and it knocks on your knees something terrible if you were to try a single-point sling with it....

We're mostly in a state where you can actually carry a concealed pistol without jumping through too many hoops: thus the question. We are all of a like mind that, all other things being equal, given a .380 or a 150mm howitzer in a gunfight, we'll probably take the howitzer.. That being said, there's certain logistical limitations to just what you can carry when you're stopping off in the Stop-N-Go to pick up a 12 pack and a can of copenhagen like any good ******* would, to defend yourself and other decent folk from rampant drug-addled liberals and other assorted ne'er do wells... That being the case, the question remains, what round is the most effective pistol bullet, in this case the most effective .45 acp bullet, and rifle ballistics are completely and totally irrelevant for all intents and purposes..​


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## YamahaFan (Nov 21, 2010)

dwilliams35 said:


> And by the way, if a bullet goes completely through what you are shooting, you are wasting energy. The perfect level of penetration stops at the surface on the exit side.. That means it's expended 100% of its energy in the target and has caused a wound channel to that point. If you have an exit wound, there is energy that is not being transferred to the target.


I have to disagree with this one. Following this theory would suggest that I should use a smaller, faster bullet to control penetration. That is what pelt hunters do to limit damage to the hides. I have always wanted full penetration and have found that on large game they tend to bleed out from the exit wound, not the entry. If my rounds don't exit, I would feel that they were underpowered for the job at hand.

What about cold weather and a heavily clothed assailant? Don't you want to know that your round will penetrate a heavy leather jacket and several layers underneath and still have the power to plow through the ribs or sternum?


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

YamahaFan said:


> I have to disagree with this one. Following this theory would suggest that I should use a smaller, faster bullet to control penetration. That is what pelt hunters do to limit damage to the hides. I have always wanted full penetration and have found that on large game they tend to bleed out from the exit wound, not the entry. If my rounds don't exit, I would feel that they were underpowered for the job at hand.
> 
> What about cold weather and a heavily clothed assailant? Don't you want to know that your round will penetrate a heavy leather jacket and several layers underneath and still have the power to plow through the ribs or sternum?


Delivery of energy is everything: that's why there are such problems with FMJ 223's in combat: they don't deliver energy, just punch a hole. In your average concealed-carry shooting situation, you really don't have time to figure on an exit wound letting them bleed out: You're not worried about following blood trails, etc.: you're trying to put them on the ground with one shot if all the other variables will allow it: that won't happen if you don't deliver energy. It's the difference in delivering a debilitating physical shock as opposed to just causing a wound and hope for the best... In hunting, you're making a precision shot to the vitals with that shot, you don't always have the luxury of that kind of accuracy with a defensive pistol.. thus you just want to deliver energy in whatever way you can get it delivered.. Expend ALL the energy in a .45 slug, and you're generally talking 500-600 ft-lbs of energy hitting them. If that same bullet overpenetrates, you may very well expend 200 ft-lbs in the actual target, and the still-traveling bullet carries the remainder with it.. Basically the difference in getting hit with a baseball bat directly in the chest or getting hit with the thin end of a pool cue in a similar fashion. At that point, you're just counting on being lucky enough to have hit some vitals that would take them down in a hurry, rather than probably hitting the same vitals anyway AND laying 600 ft-lbs on them as well.

It's the same principle with a rubber bullet or LTL beanbag load: you don't really even have to penetrate the skin to knock the want-to out of an assailant. The point isn't to make them bleed out, the point isn't even to cause massive internal damage. The point is to remove the threat IMMEDIATELY, and delivery of all the energy possible will do that more quickly than just punching holes and waiting for them to bleed out... This isn't hunting....


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

dwilliams35 said:


> Delivery of energy is everything: that's why there are such problems with FMJ 223's in combat: they don't deliver energy, just punch a hole. In your average concealed-carry shooting situation, you really don't have time to figure on an exit wound letting them bleed out: You're not worried about following blood trails, etc.: you're trying to put them on the ground with one shot if all the other variables will allow it: that won't happen if you don't deliver energy. It's the difference in delivering a debilitating physical shock as opposed to just causing a wound and hope for the best... In hunting, you're making a precision shot to the vitals with that shot, you don't always have the luxury of that kind of accuracy with a defensive pistol.. thus you just want to deliver energy in whatever way you can get it delivered..
> 
> It's the same principle with a rubber bullet or LTL beanbag load: you don't really even have to penetrate the skin to knock the want-to out of an assailant. The point isn't to make them bleed out, the point isn't even to cause massive internal damage. The point is to remove the threat IMMEDIATELY, and delivery of all the energy possible will do that more quickly than just punching holes and waiting for them to bleed out... This isn't hunting....


Spot on. The last sentence especially. "This is not hunting"...this is defensive. As in SELF defense.
Center mass, even with body armor, 800ft/lbs of energy is gonna make you second guess your original thought process.


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## YamahaFan (Nov 21, 2010)

dwilliams35 said:


> Delivery of energy is everything: that's why there are such problems with FMJ 223's in combat: they don't deliver energy, just punch a hole. In your average concealed-carry shooting situation, you really don't have time to figure on an exit wound letting them bleed out: You're not worried about following blood trails, etc.: you're trying to put them on the ground with one shot if all the other variables will allow it: that won't happen if you don't deliver energy. It's the difference in delivering a debilitating physical shock as opposed to just causing a wound and hope for the best... In hunting, you're making a precision shot to the vitals with that shot, you don't always have the luxury of that kind of accuracy with a defensive pistol.. thus you just want to deliver energy in whatever way you can get it delivered.. Expend ALL the energy in a .45 slug, and you're generally talking 500-600 ft-lbs of energy hitting them. If that same bullet overpenetrates, you may very well expend 200 ft-lbs in the actual target, and the still-traveling bullet carries the remainder with it.. Basically the difference in getting hit with a baseball bat directly in the chest or getting hit with the thin end of a pool cue in a similar fashion. At that point, you're just counting on being lucky enough to have hit some vitals that would take them down in a hurry, rather than probably hitting the same vitals anyway AND laying 600 ft-lbs on them as well.
> 
> It's the same principle with a rubber bullet or LTL beanbag load: you don't really even have to penetrate the skin to knock the want-to out of an assailant. The point isn't to make them bleed out, the point isn't even to cause massive internal damage. The point is to remove the threat IMMEDIATELY, and delivery of all the energy possible will do that more quickly than just punching holes and waiting for them to bleed out... This isn't hunting....


I realize this isn't hunting but I've shot a lot of game with a lot of different calibers and I haven't had the opportunity to test any ammo on humans. I know that small fast bullets deliver a lot of energy and shock to an area around the bullet path as evidenced by all of the bruised and blood-shot meat. I also know that large diameter, slower moving bullets put the same animals on the ground faster, yet showed less meat damage, using reasonably sized calibers for the given situation. I can't explain the difference but I've seen the results.

I agree that in a defensive situation, I want the fight stopped immediately, if not sooner. I just know that I personally, will feel more comfortable holding something loaded with a projectile that has a large diameter, a large frontal area, and the power to plow fully through the target. If they happen to bleed out after being incapacitated, so be it. I would not point and shoot unless I had the intention to kill.

I have shot many prarie dogs with 22.250 loaded to 3700 fps and frangible bullets. I have also shot them with a .458 Win Mag loaded with a 450 gr. lead flat nose bullet at 1800 fps. While both setups were deadly to the dogs, I can assure you that the big load displayed a level of destruction that the fast load could never match. It would have played out the same on any size game that I chose to use them on.

As far as accuracy in the heat of the moment is concerned, I would rather have an off center hit with a .45 and standard ammo than the same with a .380 and the best defensive bullet available.

I'm done now. I've enjoyed the discussion and I hope I'm leaving without causing any hard feelings. I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## YamahaFan (Nov 21, 2010)

spurgersalty said:


> Spot on. The last sentence especially. "This is not hunting"...this is defensive. As in SELF defense.
> Center mass, even with body armor, 800ft/lbs of energy is gonna make you second guess your original thought process.


What handgun caliber and load produces 800 ft. lbs. of energy and doesn't typically give full penetration on a center mass body shot? I'm not being sarcastic. I really want to know.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

YamahaFan said:


> I realize this isn't hunting but I've shot a lot of game with a lot of different calibers and I haven't had the opportunity to test any ammo on humans. I know that small fast bullets deliver a lot of energy and shock to an area around the bullet path as evidenced by all of the bruised and blood-shot meat. I also know that large diameter, slower moving bullets put the same animals on the ground faster, yet showed less meat damage, using reasonably sized calibers for the given situation. I can't explain the difference but I've seen the results.
> 
> I agree that in a defensive situation, I want the fight stopped immediately, if not sooner. I just know that I personally, will feel more comfortable holding something loaded with a projectile that has a large diameter, a large frontal area, and the power to plow fully through the target. If they happen to bleed out after being incapacitated, so be it. I would not point and shoot unless I had the intention to kill.
> 
> ...


 Well, whether you're done or not, we're basically agreeing: you said yourself a big, heavy bullet puts the animals on the ground faster: that's exactly what you're trying to do... You're mixing this up here: the large diameter isn't conducive to "plowing through the target".. The faster load will have more AVAILABLE energy due to the basic formula for energy: mass x velocity squared. Thus, double the size of the bullet and you just double the energy. double the velocity, and you get an exponential increase. Overpenetrate, and you've thrown away that energy advantage. The trick is to get full penetration, WITHOUT overpenetration, and do it with as big of a bullet as possible. The only difference between your reasoning and mine is that I don't consider an exit wound pouring out blood to trail as a "plus" in a defensive application. I want the target on the ground, and the more energy I can make that target "soak up", the better the chances of that happening are. You can't do better than 100% energy delivery, no matter what you're using. If you overpenetrate, that percentage drops quite quickly.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

YamahaFan said:


> What handgun caliber and load produces 800 ft. lbs. of energy and doesn't typically give full penetration on a center mass body shot? I'm not being sarcastic. I really want to know.


6.3 gr. Accurate No. 5 behind a 250 Nosler Jhp (+p load)
Kinda magnifies aches in the wrists the next day. 1911 i carry in the woods. Don't do much target shooting with it.....just enough to say I'm "profficient".
As far as the over penetration, I couldn't tell you if it would exit a human or not, but, it ain't went through a hog yet. Kinda the real deal bang/flop.
Edit:would I shoot this from a CCW 45? 
Answer: only to save my life.
Another edit: that energy # is approximate as I haven't yet run that load over the chrono to concrete things. This information was taken from quickloads after a work up.


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## Raptured (Jan 3, 2013)

*Great Information*

Thanks to everyone, this is great information and is very helpful!


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

There was a test done years ago by shooting into a body made of the jell that supposed to equal body tissue. The jell was on rollers that would almost roll with the wind. It was shot with every pistol round made from 22 to 45. Nothing moved it but 00 Buckshot. So called knockdown power from any pistol is almost a total myth. Its all about shot placement. Head, backbone usually will bring someone down. Heart shot will kill but it takes a while. Dont get caught up in all the hype. jus sayin.

Regarding a load for a 45. 7.5 Gr of Unique behind a 185 Gr wadcutter is up over 11oo fps. Yall ever hear of the highway patrol 45 ammo ? It was a favorite years ago. Best I recall it was 185 gr ball made especially for highway patrol folks. Havent seen any in years.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

dwilliams35

Wow man are you telling me that the new superior bullets of now days(as you described) expand larger than a wadcutter ? Even if they do expand (and most do not to what they are advertised) explain to me how they do more damage or are better than a wadcutter. I see you are caught up in all the hype that goes on these days. Most are (people rounds) like artificial bait that look good but the results are disappointing. I agree with you on one thing, you want to use up all the energy that that bullet has in it all of it used up in the body. That's the stopper. Which bullet do you think (speaking of 45's) will come closer to doing that a hollow point or a wadcutter ? If you are a Police officer working the street I want the first round being a reloaded special wadcutter and the rest ball. Caint have any chance of the gun not feeding..


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## CDHknives (Mar 17, 2012)

Too long of a thread to read though, and I can predict 99% of the answers already. No, I am not being a [email protected]$$...no discussion of 'best defense ammo' should fail to mention this:

The best 45 ACP (or any other) round for self defense is:

One that feeds well in your pistol
A reliable brand name hollow point
One that hits in a vital area

For the most part, after that you are splitting hairs.

I love Cor Bon brand, but they are pricey.

My 45 is loaded with Hornady Critical Defense ammo.

My Glock is loaded with Winchester Silvertips.

Your mileage may vary!


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

CHARLIE said:


> dwilliams35
> 
> Wow man are you telling me that the new superior bullets of now days(as you described) expand larger than a wadcutter ? Even if they do expand (and most do not to what they are advertised) explain to me how they do more damage or are better than a wadcutter. I see you are caught up in all the hype that goes on these days. Most are (people rounds) like artificial bait that look good but the results are disappointing. I agree with you on one thing, you want to use up all the energy that that bullet has in it all of it used up in the body. That's the stopper. Which bullet do you think (speaking of 45's) will come closer to doing that a hollow point or a wadcutter ? If you are a Police officer working the street I want the first round being a reloaded special wadcutter and the rest ball. Caint have any chance of the gun not feeding..


 Larger? Absolutely. Right up until you turn the WC around backwards. Then it's possible that the WC will be an equal to it. Wadcutters aren't even meant to expand: they are meant to cut sharp edges on paper, and it's more probable that they'll just "smush" rather than expand in any significant fashion. They may very well do a good job of penetration, just cutting it's .45" channel deep into the target ..
The old "wadcutter loaded backwards" is a legitimate way to make an old-school hollow point.. However, it just turns into a lead mushroom, and the "modern" SD load quite simply does a better job of that, with a pretty devastating expanded load with cutting edges, etc... With similar velocities and similar bullet weight, you'll get a similar amount of energy expended: however, the modern bullets will cause more damage just by design..

I dare say you'll have a hard time finding a currently active LE officer (barring some that are constrained by some liberal city councils that are scared of hollow point "dum-dum" ammo) carrying wadcutters, or hardball for that matter with the exception of some in the magazine for the express purpose of busting a windshield.. I've shot with a lot of LE, local, state, and federal, and you'll normally see either Gold Dots, the bonded Golden Sabers, or Hydrashocks..

Here's a pretty exhaustive article on the subject:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

dwilliams

"with similar velocities and similar bullet weight you'll get similar amount of energy expended: however, the modern bullets will cause more damage just by design." Your pretty close there but don't believe everything you read. Certainly enjoy discussing these issues with you because you seem fair and knowledgable. I would like to point out one thing. My brother police officers bless their soul most do read and discuss ammo and get caught up in all the "new bullet" hype. Being a Officer doesen't make you an expert on ammo. Most only fire their guns when it is mandatory to qualify.(sad). I think we will agree the main things are a positive and functioning gun and bullet placement. The so called "knockdown" power is a thing of the movies.Also the 45 auto is the best police round every designed. It doesen't shoot through 3 houses and hit an innocent bystander its good for the normal close range shootouts. Enjoyed the discussion with you..


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

CHARLIE said:


> dwilliams
> 
> Being a Officer doesen't make you an expert on ammo. Most only fire their guns when it is mandatory to qualify.(sad)..


 That's certainly true: there's a whole lot of LEO's that just shot with us once, because we never asked them back... As far as "expert on ammo", no, individual officers rarely are, but LE budgets often fund some pretty exhaustive studies on the subject: I've got a friend who was part of such a study for the DEA: they ended up with Golden Sabers for .45's, in no small part due to the bullet profile which would feed like a hardball, and Federal Hydrashocks for 9mm's and .40's.. This subject isn't just a bunch of hype: there's an awful lot of hard data out there supporting the newer SD ammo; The wadcutter certainly does a respectable job of playing on the same field, considering how much of an old-school solution it is, but at some point basic science, metallurgy, and years of design usually win out..


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

dwilliams35

Certainly a pleasure discussing this with you. I am curious regarding "only shot with us once" just curious as to who you all really are. But don't get me wrong certainly enjoyed the discussion with you. I think basically we are on the same page. Just not so sure if the new technology is really any "real" improvement. Now I am only speaking of the 45 ammo nothing else. My pleasure. 230 gr ball is hard to beat regarding reliability and getting the job done. Thanks and yes, retired PO with over 40 years of service and Capt of pistol team for many years. Camp Perry participant.Just nothing better than a good ole 1911. Just a note where I came from officers had to buy their own ammo and guns and it was not supplied by city or otherwise.


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## CDHknives (Mar 17, 2012)

CHARLIE said:


> dwilliams35
> 
> Certainly a pleasure discussing this with you. I am curious regarding "only shot with us once" just curious as to who you all really are. But don't get me wrong certainly enjoyed the discussion with you. I think basically we are on the same page. Just not so sure if the new technology is really any "real" improvement. Now I am only speaking of the 45 ammo nothing else. My pleasure. 230 gr ball is hard to beat regarding reliability and getting the job done. Thanks and yes, retired PO with over 40 years of service and Capt of pistol team for many years. Camp Perry participant.Just nothing better than a good ole 1911. Just a note where I came from officers had to buy their own ammo and guns and it was not supplied by city or otherwise.


The biggest problem with hardball ammo is that when moving at such slow velocities it just pushes stretchy flesh aside causing less damage than it could. Even Col. Cooper is on record as saying the issue 45 hardball round is less than ideal. Hollowpoints stretch flesh further causing more trauma and some designed to petal back (instead of mushroom) can cut like a mini broadhead arrow.

There is nothing like proving it to yourself with real field experimentation. While far from exhaustive, I've shot dead deer (similar to human size and construction) and then cut them open to see the effect and see if the hype is hype. My conclusions? I stick to hollowpoints!


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

CDknives

Thanks for your input. Next time try the 185 gr wadcutter at 1100 FPS and see what you get. I agree the 230 grain ball ammo is slow but also point out that in a life and death situation you certainly need a weapon that will function reliably that's all. The first round (the one that counts most) needs to be something devastating then after that ball IMHO


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## CDHknives (Mar 17, 2012)

One of my test loads was the 185 grain SWC. It puts a nice neat hole nice and deep. That has advantages and drawbacks like anything else. Hollowpoints stop sooner and do more damage in a shorter area. Here in Texas the need to penetrate heavy clothing and all removes the advantages of SWC and ball ammo IMO, and my 45's all feed everything HP very well...

Agree wholeheartedly on function first. Note my first reply...first requirement of SD ammo is reliability.


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## donf (Aug 8, 2005)

dwilliams35 said:


> The minimum "frontal area" is higher on ANY bullet than it is a wadcutter: they've got a profile to them, the wadcutter is simply by comparison a flat disk that is .45 in diameter.. Wadcutters aren't built for any expansion whatsoever: the self-defense bullets do a pretty reliable job of expansion, and ALL of them can and will expand to a spectacular level when compared to a wadcutter. There is a huge amount of what is basically old wives' tales about wadcutters as self-defense bullets, going back to the thirties or so when they WERE a legitimate choice when compared to the hardball that was the standard round. They are woefully inferior to the self-defense ammo that is out there today, though..
> 
> And by the way, if a bullet goes completely through what you are shooting, you are wasting energy. The perfect level of penetration stops at the surface on the exit side.. That means it's expended 100% of its energy in the target and has caused a wound channel to that point. If you have an exit wound, there is energy that is not being transferred to the target.


Energy dump is a myth, nobody has ever been put down by energy dump.
It is not the energy itself that kills; it is the character of the work done by it.

There is no such thing as "hydrostatic shock". The energy pulse originating from a bullet entering the watering medium of living tissue is not static. It moves and is therefore dynamic.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

donf said:


> Energy dump is a myth, nobody has ever been put down by energy dump.
> It is not the energy itself that kills; it is the character of the work done by it.


 Which is directly dependent, among other factors, upon the amount of energy which is actually applied. You're grasping at straws here.



donf said:


> There is no such thing as "hydrostatic shock". The energy pulse originating from a bullet entering the watering medium of living tissue is not static. It moves and is therefore dynamic.


 Boy, you must be loads of fun at Trival Pursuit.

It's a commonly accepted term for the concept, even if it's not considered technically correct by the anal retentive among us.


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## donf (Aug 8, 2005)

If you don't understand the concept, I'll show you how to use , at the very least, the google machine. 
The energy stored by the projectile is used to expand the bullet, and the basic tenant of terminal ballistics is to create a situation where the subject is bleeding from three places. The front , the back, and the middle.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

donf said:


> If you don't understand the concept, I'll show you how to use , at the very least, the google machine.
> The energy stored by the projectile is used to expand the bullet, and the basic tenant of terminal ballistics is to create a situation where the subject is bleeding from three places. The front , the back, and the middle.


How much rent do they pay? Oh. You meant "tenet"...

Meanwhile, the kinetic energy has a lot of uses and tasks in the application: expanding the bullet, penetrating into the target, delivering energy to the target in whatever manner it can. The only constant is that if the bullet goes out the other side, it is expending energy in a location and manner that probably doesn't happen to coincide with the original intent of the guy that pulled the trigger. That's it. To insinuate that delivery of energy is irrelevant is idiotic. Delivery of energy is EVERYTHING, and bullet design, including expansion, fragmentation, or "petaling" is simply an aspect of the tool that that energy gets applied through.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

dwilliams35

I asked a few post back of you who you were. You stated that Law Enfrocement officers shot with "us"at times. I was just curious as who "us" was.You never responded, maybe you missed it.


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## tx.fishead (Jun 4, 2005)

I didn't read this entire thread. I have loaded and shot most all .45 bullets,for defense I load 185gr Golden Sabres for plinkin and paper hard cast SWC and RN.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

CHARLIE said:


> dwilliams35
> 
> I asked a few post back of you who you were. You stated that Law Enfrocement officers shot with "us"at times. I was just curious as who "us" was.You never responded, maybe you missed it.


Didn't know that was an actual question.... I guess "just a guy"... I'm out here in the boondocks, and have the resultant "places to shoot" thirty yards out our back door.. A friend and neighbor of mine does as well, and over the years we've had some pretty big "shoots" out here: not nearly as much as we used to, but a few years back it was probably as much as twice a week: a lot of different guys have come and gone, as I mentioned, some invited back, some not: Lots of LE agencies and instructors represented over the years, as well as just friends and acquaintances, all basically "invited" through word of mouth, somebody bringing a friend or colleague, etc.... Some kept coming back and became really good friends, others weren't invited back in as tactful a way as possible because of safety concerns, or "other". We've put together some practical pistol courses, shooting steel and paper, reactive targets, both pistol and rifle, etc. etc. etc.. Basically send a bunch of rounds downrange then crank up the pit and the keg.. It has been all in all a pretty good bunch of guys and a lot of fun.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

dwilliams35

Thanks I understand and it sounds like a fun time. Understand totally, thanks and enjoyed the chat.


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## gatorbait (May 21, 2004)

My XDs likes to eat those Gold Dot 230g JHP! My wallet hates em! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Canberra (Jan 27, 2013)

DRTAmmo.


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## aggieanglr (Oct 1, 2007)

RBCD
The company is based out of San Antonio. It is a Frangible round. The thing I like about it is instead of 230 gr rounds they are 115 gr. and as far as performance, these things go in like a thumb and come out like a Volkswagon.


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