# Comanche Moon



## tiger (Jun 1, 2004)

Just a reminder 45 minutes


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## speckledred (Jun 1, 2004)

As the clock slowly ticks............


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## baldhunter (Oct 8, 2004)

I'll be watching.


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## tiger (Jun 1, 2004)

you to huh


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## tiger (Jun 1, 2004)

Just out of curousity? Where do you hunt Balds? Do you have any mounted over your fireplace? Is there a season? Any pics of the last 1 you got?


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## Muddy (Dec 25, 2007)

I read all the books. I bet its going to be good. Wish I could watch, but i'm working.


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## tiger (Jun 1, 2004)

Well it is really pretty good I just dont care much for the guy playing woodrow,the fellar doing gus is really pulling it of great I think.Pretty good cast I say.


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## aneel (Oct 8, 2005)

Yeah its really good.I agree Call could be better.


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## Muddy (Dec 25, 2007)

Yeah you get an idea in your mind what the character should be like. Sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't.


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## tiger (Jun 1, 2004)

I just think he is trying to hard to pull off TLJ I wouldnt have thought he would have been hard til later in the movie.


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## podnuh (May 26, 2004)

I agree with Tiger...He's doing his impression of a younger TLJ. Show started kind of slow with a lot of character introductions and seems to be getting better...


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## JOHNNY QUEST (Mar 6, 2006)

is that val kilmer???? i liked it. you just have to forget about the other movie.

i bet Calls pregnat girl is newts mom.


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## 100% Texan (Jan 30, 2005)

Was Jake the same Jake that gus and call hung in one of the other shows and when will that bad arse indian blue??? come into the picture.


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## Ahill (Aug 3, 2007)

noo-noo. yes thats the jake.


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## Soapeddler (Jun 18, 2006)

I enjoyed it. Val Kilmer is doing a good job. I'm still getting the image of the guy playing Call straight. I just remember him from "That Thing You Do." But I think he's doing a decent job. Woodrow is o.k. Better than the guy that played him in "Return..." IMHO.

All in all, I'm looking forward to Tuesday night.


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## tiger (Jun 1, 2004)

Oh dont get me wrong I think it was a little slow introing everyone but has a pretty good plot I think.
My deal with Woodrow is I think from the past and the book that he turned bitter because of haing a son and not knowing who the daddy was.So I was hoping he was going to be a lil different till Jake says shes a whore and says he slept with her.then.....


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## ZenDaddy (May 22, 2004)

Reminds me of Deadman's Walk. The acting was a bit 'cheesy.' (Sorry can't find a better word.) Lonesome Dove and Street of Lorado ... both top notch, the acting seemed a little more subtle. Commanche Moon and Deadman's walk the acting seems to be a little forced. It could be that it's the younger days of the two hero. Still glued to the TV set all last night. I kinda wish they gave Innish Skull more TV time, his story and acting is a lot more interesting than Call and Gus's. That's my 2 cents!


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## AggieCowboy98 (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm jealous of all of y'all. I waited all week, and wouldn't you know it about 7:30 a friend called saying she had a flat tire about an hour out of town and her spare was flat when she got it down from under the truck. By the time I got home, I only caught about the last 15 minutes. Hopefully they will replay it soon. I didn't see any replays listed before the second part shows on Tues...


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## Super Dave (May 26, 2004)

It's a bummer that Buffalo Hump in this one is the same actor as Famous Shoes in Streets of Laredo. Are all the ***** actors gone?


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

what's up with the indians talking and the sub titles takeing so long..

acting needs some work


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## word-doctor (Sep 20, 2005)

I didn't see DMW, but I agree about the acting. The actress playing Clara is doing a noticeably better job than most of the other folks--the timing seems off. "Forced" is the right word.

It's not bad, though. I did a chapter in my dissertation on _Lonesome Dove_, so I've been a fan of this saga for awhile. I do enjoy seeing how different bit players keep cropping up; I think that Ahumado's "Igor" was in Blue Duck's band in _Lonesome Dove_. Wes Studi's been in everything, including _Last of the Mohicans_.

They had to change this story a bit, I guess; the ending is supposed to be less bleak than it was in the book. One thing bugs me: Call is supposed to be relatively short. Tommy Lee pulled it off very well, but now I've got this guy towering over Gus and everyone else. That stature and the attendant violence is an important part of his make-up.

Be back Tuesday, regardless.



ZenDaddy said:


> Reminds me of Deadman's Walk. The acting was a bit 'cheesy.' (Sorry can't find a better word.) Lonesome Dove and Street of Lorado ... both top notch, the acting seemed a little more subtle. Commanche Moon and Deadman's walk the acting seems to be a little forced. It could be that it's the younger days of the two hero. Still glued to the TV set all last night. I kinda wish they gave Innish Skull more TV time, his story and acting is a lot more interesting than Call and Gus's. That's my 2 cents!


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## James Howell (May 21, 2004)

Word-doctor nailed it. The point in all the books about Call was he was slight statured man that could **** near kill anybody if he went postal on them (as seen in Lonesome Dove with the army scout that quirted Newt). Other than that, you have to give the guys some leeway on the acting, although I think Steve Zahn (the actor playing Gus MacCrae) must have watched Duval in Lonesome Dove about a thousand times, because he has his mannerisms and speech almost spot on. Val Kilmer is one of the best character actors I have ever seen (anybody remember Tombstone?). Looks like they have the location shots as good or better than Lonesome Dove did. Palo Duro looks like it was actually shot in the Palo Duro Canyon, and the area around Austin looks like the Hill Country. Just get off the dang love story plot line and get to the Rangerin'.


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## flatzman (Apr 5, 2005)

I enjoyed Val Kilmer, could'nt get enough. It's hard to get past TLJ and RD not playing the parts, but I see Gus more as silly in this version. I can't decide if it's that actor, who allways seems to be in that role or maybe that's the point, that Gus was very silly as a younger man. Getting on the horse headed the wrong way was funny.


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## tiger (Jun 1, 2004)

I didnt like the gettin on the horse the wrong way bit,kinda dumb I thought. I couldnt imagine gettin on my horse the wrong way for any reason.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

I like the fact they filmed using period correct Springfield muskets with Colt 3rd generation Dragoon pistols as would be the case with 1858 period rangers. Some of rangers in the show carried Springfield 1847 Cavalry Musketoon rifles. This is the correct rifle for this time in Texas as would be the 1851 .44 caliber 3rd model Colt Dragoon revolvers they were using in the show. I saw one smaller pistol that would be a Colt Pocket Revolver of 1849 in .31 caliber

_The Colt Dragoon Revolver was produced between 1848 and 1860, when the __Colt Model 1860__ revolver replaced it. The Dragoon was produced in three different types. The names were First Model, Second Model, and Third Model Dragoons. Government records showed an order for 8,390 Dragoons. The First Model Colt Dragoon Revolver has oval-shaped cylinder notches, a V-type mainspring and a squareback triggerguard. Colt produced about 7,000 first models between 1848 and 1850. The Second Model had rectangular notches. Until the no. 10 000 the V-shaped mainspring was standard and then replaced with a flat leaf mainspring. All the Second Model Dragoons had the squareback triggerguard. The company made about 2,550 Second Models in 1850 and '51. The Third Model Dragoon numbers stand at ten-thousand between 1851 through 1860. This design had more variations as compared to its earlier counterparts. Some of the third model Colt Dragoon Revolvers had frame cuts for detachable shoulder stocks, horizontal loading lever latches and folding leaf sights. Third Colt Dragoon Revolvers had a round trigger guard._


*US Model 1847 Cavalry Musketoon*

1US1847/48CM























































_*The US Model 1847 Cavalry Musketoon -*_ manufactured from 1848 to 1854 at the US Springfield Arsenal, somewhere between 5,800 and 6,700 total production (not to be confused with the 1847 Artillery Musketoon manufactured 1848-59). This was the first official percussion musketoon produced by the US that wasn't a flintlock or conversion. It is .69 caliber, percussion (cap and ball), muzzle-loader. It was intended to replace the Hall Carbines then carried by the Dragoons.

This example was manufactured in 1848 and lock-plate is so dated. This Musketoon is believed to have arrived in Texas at the close of the War with Mexico, and is believed to have been used by the 2nd US Dragoons (sometime between 1848 and 1855). It is believed these earlier dated Musketoons were used in the field as early trials weapons, and were not officially issued until 1851; new musketoons reflected this later date.
In 1855, the US Model 1847 Cavalry Musketoon was replaced by the US Model 1855 Rifled .54 Carbine and trials began on breech-loading carbines. About this same time, the US 2nd Dragoons left Texas for the Kansas Territory. It is unknown whether this gun was left at a fort in Texas, lost in Texas, or brought to Texas by other means. It has the name, "J. Askew" carved into the stock. It is believed to have been in possession of James Askew of the 5th Regiment of Texas Cavalry (5th Mounted Volunteers), formed in San Antonio, Texas in late Summer of 1861. This is pure speculation, but the 2nd US Dragoons were based out of San Antonio during the Mexican War and that is likely where the gun remained until the Civil War.

*About the US 2nd Dragoons -* this regiment appears in numerous reports and correspondences, always referred to in positive, enviable terms [during the Mexican War]. After the Mexican War - the following companies were stationed in Texas as follows: A at Ft. McKavitt (A was the first American force to enter Vera Cruz upon it's capture) ; B at Ft. Mason; C at Ft. Chadbourne; F at Ft. Belknap; G at Fort Territt; and I on the Clear Fork of the Brazos.
Companies D & E, under Brevet Major Graham left Monterey in July 1848, and after passing through Chihuahua, Tucson, and Santa Fe (Oct 10) proceeded to Los Angeles; Company H went to Santa Fe. The Texas station of Company K is unknown at time of this writing but it is known that Company K was present in expeditions against the Sioux, between 1855 and 1857.

The 2nd US Dragoons were known to have fought side-by-side with Texas Rangers, of note, the action at Agua Fria where a combined unit of 23 Dragoons and Rangers were attacked by 150 Mexican 'La Mancho' guerillas. "The small band of Americans fought off the guerillas in more than an hour of skirmishing, suffering three killed, 9 wounded and several horses wounded, while visiting upon the enemy 6 killed, including their leader, and a large number wounded." Officers would often instruct their men to load these musketoons with a double charge: two .63 caliber balls and six .31 caliber buckshot.


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## Ronnie Locke (May 24, 2004)

*Governor's Office and Flags*

Did anyone notice the American flag in the Governor's office? It looked like it had fifty stars on it to me. I also am not sure if that version of the Texas flag was adopted back in that time frame.


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## tiger (Jun 1, 2004)

I have that pistol


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

This is the American flag from 1851 to 1858. I recorded the show in HDTV I will look at it. The Texas Sate Flag has not changed since Texas bacame part of the Union in 1845.


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

I didn't like Gus getting on the horse backwards. I didn't like the part at the bar where he drank nearly half a bottle of whiskey in a coule of minutes. I'm writing it off to the notion that he is trying to show how Gus was when he was younger. Remember that part in LD where Gus says he had a job on a riverboat when he was young "But I had to give it up, I was too pretty and the whores wouldn't leave me alone!" I did not read the books but am a serious fan of the movie LD. To tell the truth, I never picked up on the thing about Call is supposed to be little, never noticed it in the movie. 
One other thing, the "whore" is named Maggie. That is Newt's mother. In LD it was mostly up for speculation that Call was Newt's dad, though strongly suggested, but Maggie sure seems to believe it.


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## word-doctor (Sep 20, 2005)

The part about getting on the horse backwards is in the book.

It's really interesting how much feeling we all have for this "story"; my brother in law says that you ought to read the Bible and LD and can skate on everything else (he's only about half kidding). I just find it interesting when we say "Call wouldn't do this," etc. Like me: last night Call called her "Maggie" to her face, when in the book/s there was a big deal made of the fact that he wouldn't use her name--I think it was a flashback in LD.

Y'know, maybe I need to put a Western American Lit and Film course together here at Alvin Community College and teach it. We could offer it either for credit/transfer or for continuing ed. Maybe even online, with a couple of meetings during the semester at a BBQ place.


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## hunt2grill (Dec 1, 2006)

IN case you missed it you can watch it here

Your friend wants you to check out this free video on innertube from CBS.

http://www.cbs.com/innertube/index.php?src=email&vid=176218&format=wmv

Watch it now!

Title: Comanche Moon
Episode: Comanche Moon Part One
Despcription: The prequel to Larry McMurtry's bestselling book, "Lonesome Dove," follows Texas Rangers Augustus "Gus" McCrae and Woodrow F. Call, now in their middle years, as they continue to deal with the ever-increasing tensions of adult life.


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

word-doctor said:


> The part about getting on the horse backwards is in the book.
> 
> It's really interesting how much feeling we all have for this "story"; my brother in law says that you ought to read the Bible and LD and can skate on everything else (he's only about half kidding). I just find it interesting when we say "Call wouldn't do this," etc. Like me: last night Call called her "Maggie" to her face, when in the book/s there was a big deal made of the fact that he wouldn't use her name--I think it was a flashback in LD.
> 
> Y'know, maybe I need to put a Western American Lit and Film course together here at Alvin Community College and teach it. We could offer it either for credit/transfer or for continuing ed. Maybe even online, with a couple of meetings during the semester at a BBQ place.


You are right about the name part. I know in LD during a converstaion between Gus and Call, Gus brings it up, "She has a name but you are too stubborn to use it!" or something like that. Call wouldn't call her Maggie in LD. Another thing you are right about is that we feel like we know these people, and we do know as much about them as we do about each other, is many cases, more.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

2nd part of series is on CBS tonight. 

I looked at 1st show and sure enough they are using the 1858 American Flag. Texas Flag has not changed - same flag as when Texas was an independent nation.


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

I didn't see the show but I saw the commercials, they kept showing one guy with his shirt off all sweaty in the ad, I think this movie is just to sucker people in to accepting gay cowboys in Mcmurtry's brokeback mountain movie, be carefull so you don't get caught up in it. This is a gateway **** movie fo sure.Here is proof Mcmurtry accepts homos;

McMurtry: When I was a little boy I had a cousin who was gay who was a rodeoer. I didn't see all that much of Cousin X--

Cousin X? [Anne laughs]

McMurtry: Yes. He lived with a schoolteacher in one of the towns in Texas, near where we set Jack's life in the film. And the first vibe I ever got, I suppose, having to do with homosexuality was when we'd go up to family reunions, my father and mother would say, "Now, please be very polite to Cousin X's gentleman friend." We had no reason not to be. The gentleman friend was perfectly nice. And yet there was some anxiety in my parents that somehow there would be an awkwardness or something like that. There never was. I don't even know what happened to Cousin X and his gentleman friend. They're old enough to have died by now.

No sense of "Be careful, Cousin X's gentleman friend is liable to get you in a corner"?

McMurtry: [A near-smile] The reunions were held outdoors on the great plains. There were no corners where anybody could have got us.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

Charactors are straight in Comanche Moon. There are no illusions to "gay" cowboys in this story.


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## lesmcdonald (Feb 14, 2006)

I thought the whole thing sucked. I'm not watching any more. I too thought the whole thing was "CHEESY"., forced acting. I recorded the first issue and have sinced deleted it. Not watching any more. No comparison to the original "Lonesome Dove", that was a class act.


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

Thats how they sucker you in, once you watch this one you want to see the others.



FlakMan said:


> Charactors are straight in Comanche Moon. There are no illusions to "gay" cowboys in this story.


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

cncman are you gay? You sure try to put gays down a lot. I always heard that the one that squeeks the loudest is guilty.


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## MEGABITE (May 21, 2004)

Careful cncnman, Bobby's gonna call glaad on ya. haha


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

Im not the one watching homer propoganda, or trying to defend them, I thought you all would be glad to hear the warnings, but if you want to watch a show written by someone advancing the gay agenda go ahead, it is a free country.



Bobby said:


> cncman are you gay? You sure try to put gays down a lot. I always heard that the one that squeeks the loudest is guilty.


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## BlueH2O (May 22, 2007)

cncman said:


> Im not the one watching homer propoganda, or trying to defend them, I thought you all would be glad to hear the warnings, but if you want to watch a show written by someone advancing the gay agenda go ahead, it is a free country.


So should we plan a book burning to keep everyone safe?


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

Why not? Harry potter books teach kids about witchcraft, the golden compass teaches kids about atheism, what do you think these books teach kids? Sounds like some of you aren't so committed to certain values when you happen to like the show.



BlueH2O said:


> So should we plan a book burning to keep everyone safe?


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## hunt2grill (Dec 1, 2006)

cncman said:


> Why not? Harry potter books teach kids about witchcraft, the golden compass teaches kids about atheism, what do you think these books teach kids? Sounds like some of you aren't so committed to certain values when you happen to like the show.


And I thought cncman just hated Christmas LOL:spineyes:


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

Hey Christmas is over! Thank goodness, now if I can just get my neighbors to realize that and take down their lights!



hunt2grill said:


> And I thought cncman just hated Christmas LOL:spineyes:


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## pabloag (Jan 13, 2007)

seems this thread is suffering from a lil drift. so why not keep the drift going. Does anyone know the significance of the the title "Commanche Moon". Just wondering if it's sumthin like "blue moon" and so on. 

Just got Cowboy Cooking by Tom Perini and noticed that the forward was by Robert Duval and the publisher was "Commanche Moon Publishing, Inc."

So that's why the question on: what's a "Commanche Moon".


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

I'll bet it is slang for some weird gay activity, like hanging your hiney out of a sleeping bag or something.



pabloag said:


> seems this thread is suffering from a lil drift. so why not keep the drift going. Does anyone know the significance of the the title "Commanche Moon". Just wondering if it's sumthin like "blue moon" and so on.
> 
> Just got Cowboy Cooking by Tom Perini and noticed that the forward was by Robert Duval and the publisher was "Commanche Moon Publishing, Inc."
> 
> So that's why the question on: what's a "Commanche Moon".


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## pabloag (Jan 13, 2007)

Easy now thar cncman . . . don't get all excited . . . LOL

was wondering if it was like a full moon when people get a lil amped up and in the Commanche case a good night for stealing horses and so on.


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## Tiny (Dec 19, 2006)

I have to agree with CNC, them guys are GAY!!... I won't be watchin the rest of it..


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

tinyrogerd01 said:


> I have to agree with CNC, them guys are GAY!!... I won't be watchin the rest of it..


I bet that will hurt the ratings


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

I don't know what it really means, I won't subject myself to such perversions by watching it, maybe someone that enjoys that kind of show can post up. I still bet it has something to do with a couple of cowpokes that have been in the bush too long.



pabloag said:


> Easy now thar cncman . . . don't get all excited . . . LOL
> 
> was wondering if it was like a full moon when people get a lil amped up and in the Commanche case a good night for stealing horses and so on.


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## Tiny (Dec 19, 2006)

Why hellsyea - Don'tcha Noit!!!

LMA:rotfl:!



Bobby said:


> I bet that will hurt the ratings


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

pabloag said:


> seems this thread is suffering from a lil drift. so why not keep the drift going. Does anyone know the significance of the the title "Commanche Moon". Just wondering if it's sumthin like "blue moon" and so on.
> 
> Just got Cowboy Cooking by Tom Perini and noticed that the forward was by Robert Duval and the publisher was "Commanche Moon Publishing, Inc."
> 
> So that's why the question on: what's a "Commanche Moon".


drift is another ambiguous gay reference, but I won't go there. Having grown up in the vicinity of Buffalo Gap, TX... I can say that anything Tom Perini puts on paper is worth reading... especially if it involves chow... Buffalo Gap was the closest post office to my home growing up... we stayed out of Abilene as much as possible because it was, and is, full to the brim with latent homosexual cowboys...

jc


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## word-doctor (Sep 20, 2005)

Oh for cryin' out loud. There's no pro-gay agenda in _any_ of the Lonesome Dove books. There aren't even any allusions or suggestions in them.

McMurtry co-wrote a screenplay based on someone else's short story--totally separate projects.

edit-The Comanche Moon refers to a moon bright enough to raid by but not bright enough to let someone draw a bead on you. Usually in autumn, after the summer hunts were over.


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

Like I said the lonesome dove series is just to sucker you in to start looking at his gay stuff, 2 undeniable facts, 1. he was raised around homos like there was no problem with it and 2 he wrote a pro gay movie that shows gay cowboy love, do you deny either of these is true? To make excuses for the agenda is to accept it and further it. Like I said it is a free country if you want to keep watching movies that glorify cowboys that should be riding side saddle go ahead, just don't blame people for warning others about it. Maybe everyone can have a mcmurtry watching party, they can all bring their lap dogs and drink wine together and do each other's hair.



word-doctor said:


> Oh for cryin' out loud. There's no pro-gay agenda in _any_ of the Lonesome Dove books. There aren't even any allusions or suggestions in them.
> 
> McMurtry co-wrote a screenplay based on someone else's short story--totally separate projects.
> 
> edit-The Comanche Moon refers to a moon bright enough to raid by but not bright enough to let someone draw a bead on you. Usually in autumn, after the summer hunts were over.


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## pabloag (Jan 13, 2007)

word-doctor said:


> The Comanche Moon refers to a moon bright enough to raid by but not bright enough to let someone draw a bead on you. Usually in autumn, after the summer hunts were over.


yeauuuh buddy, that's what I was lookin for. *Thank-You*.

In looking for it on Wikipedia, all I could find were reviews on this mini series and they weren't very favorable.

Quote from one review: "Considering _Comanche Moon_'s pedigree, you had a right to expect more. The script, like the book, comes from one of our greatest living authors, Larry McMurtry - with an assist from his _Brokeback Mountain _collaborator Diana Ossana. Director Simon Wincer served the same function on _Dove, _possibly the best of the broadcast miniseries. And yet the best that can be said for this waning _Moon _is that it's a sad reminder of how splendid _Dove _really was and how far the miniseries has fallen in the intervening years."

I personally don't like the willy nilly aspect of the guy now in the birdcage and the funky fella playing Gus and the gotta have it now horny red-head. Robert Duval has got to be also rollin his eyes on that one. I thought the original Lonesome Dove mini-series was done well. This one, as one review put it, looks like it was put together on a $1.50 budget.


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

"with an assist from his _Brokeback Mountain _collaborator Diana Ossana"

See that proves it, why else would he bring in the person he wrote the gay cowboy movie with?


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

I'll watch it anyway but so CNCMAN does not worry about me going queer from the hidden GAY TV waves - I'll wear my anti-gay brain wave resistant tin foil lined cowboy hat while drinking *straight *whisky 

Larry McMurtry is one of the truely great American writers - I am proud to own all four 1st Ed hardback novels of his Lonesome Dove Series with his autograph. I expect 99.9% of his work has nothing to do with *gay* cowboys.

1961 - _Horseman, Pass By_ - adapted for film as _Hud_ 
1963 - _Leaving Cheyenne_ - adapted for film as _Lovin' Molly_ 
1966 - _The Last Picture Show_ - adapted into a film of the same name 
1968 - _In A Narrow Grave_ 
1970 - _Moving On_ 
1972 - _All My Friends Are Going To Be Strangers_ 
1974 - _It's Always We Rambled_ (essay) 
1975 - _Terms of Endearment_ - adapted into a film of the same name 
1978 - _Somebody's Darling_ 
1982 - _Cadillac Jack_ 
1983 - _Desert Rose_ 
1985 - _Lonesome Dove_, 1986 Pulitzer Prize winner, and first of what became a series 
1987 - _Texasville_ - adapted into a film of the same name - A continuation of the story begun in _The Last Picture Show_ 
1987 - _Film Flam_ 
1988 - _Anything For Billy_ 
1988 - _The Murder of Mary Phagan_ - TV story 
1989 - _Some Can Whistle_ 
1990 - _Buffalo Girls_ - adapted into a TV movie 
1990 - _Montana_ - TV movie 
1992 - _The Evening Star_ - adapted for film as _The Evening Star_ - A continuation of the story begun in _Terms of Endearment_ 
1992 - _Memphis_ - TV movie 
1992 - _Falling from Grace_ - TV movie 
1993 - _Streets of Laredo_, another in the Lonesome Dove series 
1994 - _Pretty Boy Floyd_ (with Diana Ossana) 
1995 - _Dead Man's Walk_, another in the Lonesome Dove series 
1995 - _The Late Child_ 
1997 - _Comanche Moon_, the last as of 2007 of the Lonesome Dove series 
1997 - _Zeke and Ned_ 
1999 - _Crazy Horse_ 
1999 - _Duane's Depressed_ - A continuation of _The Last Picture Show_ and _Texasville_ story 
1999 - _Walter Benjamin at the Dairy Queen_ 
2000 - _Roads: Driving America's Great Highways_ 
2000 - _Boone's Lick_ 
2001 - _Sacagawea's Nickname_ (essays on the American West) 
2002 - _Sin Killer_ - The Berrybender Narratives, Book 1 
2002 - _Johnson County War_ - TV mini-series 
2003 - _The Wandering Hill_ - The Berrybender Narratives, Book 2 
2003 - _By Sorrow's River_ - The Berrybender Narratives, Book 3 
2004 - _Folly and Glory: A Novel_ - The Berrybender Narratives, Book 4 
2005 - _Brokeback Mountain_ - Oscar-winning screenplay (adapted from the short story by E. Annie Proulx) 
2005 - _The Colonel and Little Missie: Buffalo Bill, Annie Oakley & the Beginnings of Superstardom in America_ (May) 
2005 - _Oh What A Slaughter!_ (Nov) 
2005 - _Loop Group_ (Dec) 
2006 - _Telegraph Days_ (May) 
2007 - _When The Light Goes_ (Feb) - A continuation of _The Last Picture Show_, _Texasville_, and _Duane's Depressed_ story


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## Gottagofishin (Dec 17, 2005)

And I always thought cowboys were bowlegged from riding horses. You learn something new every day on this board.


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## lslite (Jun 26, 2005)

*Lmao !*

Flakman,you just about killed me with that one ! Where can I get one of them cowboyhat liners ?


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

Oh so as long as MOST of his work isn't about man love it is OK to watch the rest of it? Whatever gets you through the night. guess it would be OK for kids to read something by Larry flint that wasn't ****? Look at some of those titles, I admit it is subtle but it is no doubt there;

"johnson" county war?
Boone's Lick?
Walter benjamin at the dairy "QUEEN"
Zeke and Ned? (sounds like a brokeback prequal)
Pretty boy floyd? (this one should be obvious)
Falling from grace? (because they were pipe smokers)
"some can whistle"? (who ever heard of a whistling cowboy)
"Anything for Billy"? (wonder what he wanted?)
"somebody's darling"? ( I bet I know who)

And what about the famous "lonesome Dove" Why doesn't he have a hen? Lets face it, he makes elton john look like the marlboro man.



FlakMan said:


> I'll watch it anyway but so CNCMAN does not worry about me going queer from the hidden GAY TV waves - I'll wear my anti-gay brain wave resistant tin foil lined cowboy hat while drinking *straight *whisky
> 
> Larry McMurtry is one of the truely great American writers - I am proud to own all four 1st Ed hardback novels of his Lonesome Dove Series with his autograph. I expect 99.9% of his work has nothing to do with *gay* cowboys.
> 
> ...


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

Don't know but I bet it comes in pink



lslite said:


> Flakman,you just about killed me with that one ! Where can I get one of them cowboyhat liners ?


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## Tiny (Dec 19, 2006)

Sorry for the hijack and no offence, but....

Flakman, Are you a shrimper???

FlakMan







vbmenu_register("postmenu_1418370", true); 
Member White Shrimper Boot Club


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

All My Friends Are Going To Be Strangers is an excellent book. I read it back in the 70's and still remember it.The ending was slightly weak but on the whole I couldn't put it down. It was the first time I ever heard about Larry McMurtry.


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

I wonder why all his friends were going to be strangers? Maybe when people found out their little secret no one would want to be around them? I wouldn't know I haven't read it, just guessing, I wouldn't lower myself to read gay literature. If you like that I hear Truman Capote is good too.



activescrape said:


> All My Friends Are Going To Be Strangers is an excellent book. I read it back in the 70's and still remember it.The ending was slightly weak but on the whole I couldn't put it down. It was the first time I ever heard about Larry McMurtry.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

tinyrogerd01 said:


> Sorry for the hijack and no offence, but....
> Flakman, Are you a shrimper???
> FlakMan
> 
> ...


Yep it was the family business till Hurricane Carla insurance $$ got us down to one boat and then we got out completely in 1975 when the Vietnamize showed up working harder at it then we wanted to do and bought our boat.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

Pink tin foil - now that sure is _cute!_


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

cncman said:


> I wonder why all his friends were going to be strangers? Maybe when people found out their little secret no one would want to be around them? I wouldn't know I haven't read it, just guessing, I wouldn't lower myself to read gay literature. If you like that I hear Truman Capote is good too.


Actually it was because the book was set in Austin and the main character was a homophobe. Not cool there, even in the 70's.


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

Wow, you are into shrimping and you think pink tin foil is cute, I guess you are watching the right shows!



FlakMan said:


> Pink tin foil - now that sure is _cute!_


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

Really? It wasn't a Western? Sounds to me like he wanted to show how "evil" a "homophobe" is. Anyone with any sense knows that a homophobe is just someone that knows right from wrong. So I guess the "homophobe" wasn't put in the best light in the story? Figures!



activescrape said:


> Actually it was because the book was set in Austin and the main character was a homophobe. Not cool there, even in the 70's.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

this thread is going downhill fast - later men - I'll go get my whiskey bottle out and line my cowboy hat and get ready for the evil **** TV ray beams.


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## seeingred (Jul 24, 2005)

cncman said:


> Im not the one watching homer propoganda, or trying to defend them, I thought you all would be glad to hear the warnings, but if you want to watch a show written by someone advancing the gay agenda go ahead, it is a free country.


Dude....It is 2008. Your homophobic propoganda should be taken to a skinhead board. Word of advise.....Keep your mouth shut; you sound very ignorant


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

Im just stating an undeniable fact, McMurtry wrote a gay cowboy movie and his other work should be suspect, You don't just write one gay movie, it has to come from somewhere inside you. I said before if others want to support gay propoganda that is their right, but it is my right to speak out against the agenda.



seeingred said:


> Dude....It is 2008. Your homophobic propoganda should be taken to a skinhead board. Word of advise.....Keep your mouth shut; you sound very ignorant


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

seeingred said:


> Dude....It is 2008. Your homophobic propoganda should be taken to a skinhead board. Word of advise.....Keep your mouth shut; you sound very ignorant


You don't know cncman yet he is a troll. He really doesn't agree with what he is saying, he just does it to get a rise out of people. He fits right in on that other board. Only problem is they outdo him and put him in his place to much so he comes back over here.


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

cncman said:


> Really? It wasn't a Western? Sounds to me like he wanted to show how "evil" a "homophobe" is. Anyone with any sense knows that a homophobe is just someone that knows right from wrong. So I guess the "homophobe" wasn't put in the best light in the story? Figures!


It was more of a social commentary.


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## cncman (Sep 12, 2005)

I know not of what you speak, is this is another militant gay tactic to attempt to discredit me? Comanche moon will be the downfall of western civilization mark my words!



Bobby said:


> You don't know cncman yet he is a troll. He really doesn't agree with what he is saying, he just does it to get a rise out of people. He fits right in on that other board. Only problem is they outdo him and put him in his place to much so he comes back over here.


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

c-man must have had the day off.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

cncman said:


> I know not of what you speak, is this is another militant gay tactic to attempt to discredit me? Comanche moon will be the downfall of western civilization mark my words!


Actually, you do a great job of stepping in it yourself. Take your trolls back to where they belong. This isn't the place for them.


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## JOHNNY QUEST (Mar 6, 2006)

Rattler To The Throat. You Gotta Love That. Its fiction and a great show.

Val is killin me with his acting , its great.

there ain't nothing gay about it.

enjoy, they don't make many like these anymore.


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

JOHNNY QUEST said:


> Rattler To The Throat. You Gotta Love That.


Yeah, that was good enough for that cursed ol' skinner.


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## JOHNNY QUEST (Mar 6, 2006)

that little town is called lonesome dove!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:smile:


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## Lesto (Mar 4, 2005)

They are headed to Lonesome Dove...


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## JOHNNY QUEST (Mar 6, 2006)

I just thought i would thro this in there. Woodro's old lady is a little loose.hwell:


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## Just Wad'n (Jan 9, 2006)

Val Kilmer is a freak! And I love it!!!! LOL


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## Troutslurp (Dec 19, 2004)

JOHNNY QUEST said:


> I just thought i would thro this in there. Woodro's old lady is a little loose.hwell:


So true. This flick really was a "yawner"

Slurp


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## portalto (Oct 1, 2004)

So good to see we're back on topic! Didn't watch it yet but looking forward.


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## Aggie Chris (Jun 5, 2005)

From Odessahistory.com , the meaning of Comanche Moon ...

*The skillful thieves revelled in large scale raids - so regular that Mexicans called it "Comanche Moon" when the Indians came to steal women and children for slaves, as well as horses, cattle and mules.*


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

still can't get used to the indians talking so slow, that was pretty strained....

anyone else see someone walk behind the men at the campfire after the resque?

I thought the horses were gonna get stolen....LOL


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## Livininlogs (Oct 12, 2005)

*Gus needed to be a little more realistic*

Ok I'm a little disappointed went all the way into the second segment before you heard anything about a POKE out of Gus. lol


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## hunt2grill (Dec 1, 2006)

CoastalOutfitters said:


> still can't get used to the indians talking so slow, that was pretty strained....
> 
> anyone else see someone walk behind the men at the campfire after the resque?
> 
> I thought the horses were gonna get stolen....LOL


I saw it but wasn't at the TIVO to rewind it I'll go back tonight and look again.

The only Character I'm having a difficult time with is the Indian tracker he always seems to be off cue and is nowhere near the level of actor you'd expect.


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## Outcast (May 20, 2004)

Can't believe I read all the pages.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

I'm trying to judge Comanche moon on its own merit. 

If we compare it with Lonesome Dove it will lose and be harshly judged, unfairly I think. Lonesome Dove was an all time masterpiece and will still be enjoyed by viewers long after we are all gone.


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## ZenDaddy (May 22, 2004)

*Wait a Second!*

So I figure ol' Innish has been in that pit for what? Three to six months? By the looks of it he's been getting plenty of snakes to eat. Ol' Val looks like he got his fill of Texas BBQ when he was filming. (Ya'd think a guy in a pit would be a lot skinnier!)


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## Reel Screamer (Jun 8, 2004)

Don't forget the guy getting killed by a PARROTT! Really stupid.....

LW


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## yer_corks_under (Mar 23, 2007)

The book was great , what was different last night, was in the book they cut Innish's eye lids off.


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## MarshMellow (Dec 17, 2004)

I agree with the lack of believability concerning Val's belly while in the pit. You gotta hand it to him, though, that he's the master of playing offbeat characters: Jim Morrison & Doc Holiday to name a couple. Actually, he looked like Morrison when they rescued him from the pit.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Cuttin off eyelids makes for bad prime time network television. LOL


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## WilliamH (May 21, 2004)

Why is there a Sam Elliott look alike in most westerns?


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

maybe they were feeding him out for the Jaguar...LOL


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## Super Dave (May 26, 2004)

Reel Screamer said:


> Don't forget the guy getting killed by a PARROTT! Really stupid.....
> 
> LW


I agree. That makes the list of the low points of this series. I would have grabbed and rung that **** bird's neck.


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## Super Dave (May 26, 2004)

Also, should it have taken all those bullets to stop one cow? Not exactly marksmen, huh? No wonder the Indians were winning. Seems the only one in this movie that can shoot straight, among others attributes, is Innish's wife.


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

It wasn't the parrott that killed him. It was that sudden stop at the base of the cliff he fell off of that killed him.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

and the town indian raid at the beginning for that matter........

you would have thought they could shoot better...............


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## spec (Oct 14, 2004)

yer_corks_under said:


> The book was great , what was different last night, was in the book they cut Innish's eye lids off.


yeah i was looking forward to seeing how Val Kilmer was going to act like he had no eyelids...they seem to portray both Clara and Call as alot softer than they come off in the book...there is alot more love story than in the book also. Overall the movie is okay but no where near as good as the book.


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## dash8dvr (Jun 6, 2006)

Not as good as I would have hoped, but not bad either. Maybe it will get better. I agree, something is wrong with that tracker Indian...somebody dropped the ball on casting that guy. I will say that I'll take it over American Idol any day of the week.


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## word-doctor (Sep 20, 2005)

I wanted to see him trying to construct new eyelids out of frogskin, in addition to the hopping around behavior.

Your note about Clara and Call is interesting. I think she's about the best thing going in this adaptation. He is definitely more talkative than in LD or Streets of Laredo; I don't think that's a problem, given that he's younger and not so knocked around. But the actor playing him is too tall... not rough enough.



spec said:


> yeah i was looking forward to seeing how Val Kilmer was going to act like he had no eyelids...they seem to portray both Clara and Call as alot softer than they come off in the book...there is alot more love story than in the book also. Overall the movie is okay but no where near as good as the book.


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## CentexPW (Jun 22, 2004)

dash8dvr said:


> Not as good as I would have hoped, but not bad either. Maybe it will get better. I agree, something is wrong with that tracker Indian...somebody dropped the ball on casting that guy. I will say that I'll take it over American Idol any day of the week.


I agree, The Indian Tracker reminded me of Daniel Boones Indian friend from the old Daniel Boone Series. His english was a little too good.


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## word-doctor (Sep 20, 2005)

CentexPW said:


> I agree, The Indian Tracker reminded me of Daniel Boones Indian friend from the old Daniel Boone Series. His english was a little too good.


Nothing will ever top this one from Tonto (Jay Silverheels): "Maybe him no can handle investigation."


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## stovepipe (Dec 21, 2004)

It looks like the wardrobe department got all the indian buckskins at STUCKEY`S


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## Reel Screamer (Jun 8, 2004)

dash8dvr said:


> Not as good as I would have hoped, but not bad either. Maybe it will get better. I agree, something is wrong with that tracker Indian...somebody dropped the ball on casting that guy. I will say that I'll take it over American Idol any day of the week.


I think he bats for the other team......


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## stovepipe (Dec 21, 2004)

well, wasn`t his (the tracker) name Famous Shoes..??

kinda sounds like he could have been a young "***** Liberace"....

the name alone, is a-bit suspect.....

in fact, why did McMurtry write him in as a "Kick-a-poo" indian...??

Comanche, Kiowa and Apache all sound fierce.....but Kickapoo....??? hmmmm


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## michaelbaranowski (May 24, 2004)

The lack of westerns being made theses days this one has been very enjoyable to me. Seems like yall guys are far too credictical(sp). IF you think the movie is so bad just don't watch it. But to me it is better than most things on TV so I will be watching it tonight at 800.


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## dash8dvr (Jun 6, 2006)

stovepipe said:


> well, wasn`t his (the tracker) name Famous Shoes..??
> 
> kinda sounds like he could have been a young "***** Liberace"....
> 
> ...


LOL, I guess instead of scalping you he'll just do your hair.


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## word-doctor (Sep 20, 2005)

Look, at least it wasn't from the Shi-Tzu tribe.:wink:

Using this tribe for someone who walks huge distances is intentional: the Kickapoo started out in the Rust Belt and were displaced multiple times, ending up in little groups from Kansas to Mexico. The name is a bastardized version of one meaning "He stands about" or "He moves about," so it's also important to the character.:walkingsm


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## stovepipe (Dec 21, 2004)

dash8dvr said:


> LOL, I guess instead of scalping you he'll just do your hair.


and maybe decorate your wigwam.....???


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## JOHNNY QUEST (Mar 6, 2006)

I HAVE REALLY ENJOYED THE FILM!!!!! It seems we have a few Siskel and Eberts here. Yes i would have just choked the bird to death, i would have never hit a woman, and i have drank in worse dives than the lonesome dove saloon.
But we have a western here. Lets enjoy it while it lasts, before another liberal
makes the next one. 

Its not lonesome dove. its buget is not the same. But i am enjoying it.
Big screen cinamatography went out a long time ago!!! I think the last good one was Gladiator.

randall


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## pabloag (Jan 13, 2007)

I went to PACK mtg last night. What I saw of part II was better than part I. 

Had lunch today with a "cowboy" and we both laughed about the english speaking Kickapoo guide that instantly knew that it was a jaguar that did the squaw in and that the killer texas parrot did the bad guy in as the parrot once ruled the world, RULED THE WORLD??? ....LOL. that was just tooo much. And yeauuuh what's with the big beer belly on the pit man being starved......? Yeooww, it was just a crazee world back then I reckon . . . .

anyway, JQ you're right that it's good to enjoy this western. At least it's not the absurdity of a Broke Back Mountain movie. I'll be kickin back and enjoying the part III. 

It's hard to believe that Lonesome Dove was way back in '86 already. Dang, I'm getting old or at least let's say older


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## James Howell (May 21, 2004)

Man, you boys need to start reading up. Its been following the book pretty closely so far (love story has been expanded quite a bit), and I hate to break it to y'all, but Larry McMurtry cowrote the screenplay for Brokeback Mountain.


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## JOHNNY QUEST (Mar 6, 2006)

Excuse me !!!!! I am trying to remove the whole broke back thing from my memory!!!


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## flatzman (Apr 5, 2005)

I'm a bit confused by Deets characterization. I didn't realize he was more or less a cook/hand. But is did show they had more faith in him then any of the others. Was he also a ranger? I can't see how. How does he end up with the rangers? Was he a slave or free? If so, was he Skull's? I think that guy is doing a great job as Deets. Follow up Glover's act ain't no easy task either. I like how he stays out of Woodrow and Gus' arguments.


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## JOHNNY QUEST (Mar 6, 2006)

flatzman said:


> I'm a bit confused by Deets characterization. I didn't realize he was more or less a cook/hand. But is did show they had more faith in him then any of the others. Was he also a ranger? I can't see how. How does he end up with the rangers? Was he a slave or free? If so, was he Skull's? I think that guy is doing a great job as Deets. Follow up Glover's act ain't no easy task either. I like how he stays out of Woodrow and Gus' arguments.


 i think your right flatz, deets is doing a great job. i know he was a ranger later, but i am unsure of his job as of now. the man has a way with bluebonnets.


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## Goags (May 28, 2004)

The original LD set the bar way too high, but I'm enjoying this one, better than anything else on reg. tv. . Beautiful shots of some rugged country!


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## tiger (Jun 1, 2004)

All in all a good watch


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

all i can say is that is one fast tracker, keeping up with 2 men on horses all day....LOL


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## ZenDaddy (May 22, 2004)

The third episode was by far the best. Gus' acting gets less 'cheezy' and more believable. I got them on tape, I have a feeling when I watch it 6 months down the road, I'll like it a whole lot better. I'd have to put them in this order:

Lonesome Dove
Streets of Lorado
Commanche Moon
DeadMan's Walk


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## WilliamH (May 21, 2004)

Where does Comanche Moon fall in chronilogical order?


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## michaelbaranowski (May 24, 2004)

I liked the second episode the most but last night was not bad either. After watching Commache Moon my interest in the serie it back up again so I have done a little reading on Wikipedia and I need to watch them all again. 

The way it ended last night made me think there might be another book and mini-series to fill in the gap between CM & LD.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Some of the posts just crack me up. Thanks you all for some good laughs.

Its fiction boys and girls. It came out of thin air into a talented writers brain and then to paper and finally a mini series. It never happened.

In fiction land a parrot could rule the world. A talented black guy could be a Texas ranger and for that matter Betty Boop could be the governor.


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## speckledred (Jun 1, 2004)

*for that matter Betty Boop could be the governor.*

Yep and that is how fiction works!


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

michaelbaranowski said:


> I liked the second episode the most but last night was not bad either. After watching Commache Moon my interest in the serie it back up again so I have done a little reading on Wikipedia and I need to watch them all again.
> 
> The way it ended last night made me think there might be another book and mini-series to fill in the gap between CM & LD.


Good point. In Lonesome Dove, near the beginning, Jake Spoon comes on to the scene. It is stated that it has been 10 years since they saw him. Newt tells Jake, "You don't remember me Jake? You used to buy me hard candy!" Newt looks to be in his late teens in LD so there are 10 years we don't know about.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

*This story is very loosely based on this great raid made in 1840. They set the time 18 years later and had the raid hit Austin which was avoided by the Comanches in this raid. My ancestors in Port Lavaca area had their horses and stock stolen or killed, farm house burned down. All of my ancestors escaped. They left with two slaves, a Karancahua indian family they had adopted all to a boats they rowed out into the bay to safety.*

I enjoyed this series. The evil TV rays did not corrupt me. It is a fiction but close enough to real history to have some revelance.

*Great Raid of 1840*

*The Council House Fight*

_Main article Council House Fight_. The Council House Fight took place on March 13, 1840, after 33 Comanche chiefs from some of the southern Comanche bands and their followers and families had come into San Antonio under promises they would be safe while they sat down with Republic of Texas officials to negotiate a peace treaty.[1] The Republic of Texas officials, however, had decided that if the Comanche chiefs did not bring in all captives in the hands of the Comanche people that they would be taken captive themselves; their plan was to take the Comanche peace chiefs prisoner, and then barter for their release.

The chiefs arrived with hopes of negotiating lasting recognition of the Comancheria (the Comanche homeland), and a formal end to hostilities along the border, but recognition of the Comancheria was unacceptable to the Texan officials, as it would limit settlement there.[1] While the Comanche concentrated on presents, which were normally given to them at such talks, the Republic of Texas focused on promises to release captives among the Comanche. This dichotomy of purpose set the stage for a tragedy. On January 30, 1840, Albert Sidney Johnston, Secretary of War, notified Lieutenant Colonel William S. Fisher, commanding the 1st Regiment of Infantry, that:

"Should the Comanche come in without bringing with them the Prisoners, as it is understood they have agreed to do, you will detain them. Some of their number will be dispatched as messengers to the tribe to inform them that those detained, will be held as hostages until the Prisoners are delivered up, when the hostages will be released."[2] The Texan officials began the treaty talks with demands that the Comanche considered impossible, demanding the Comanche return all white prisoners, including people such as Cynthia Ann Parker who were with bands of the Comanche not represented at the talks. The Texans were unaware that many of the captives were in the hands of bands not represented at the talks, and therefore these captives would not be able to be returned.[3]

The Comanche chiefs at the meeting had brought in one white captive to show good faith, and had others available for return. However, the condition of this single captive, Matilda Lockhart, who had been beaten and sexually assaulted, enraged Texas Officials, who demanded prompt return of all captives.[4] When the chiefs would not, or could not, return all captives immediately, the Texas officials said that chiefs would be held hostage until the white captives were released.[4] As the Comanche attempted to escape, the militia in hiding threw open the doors, and began firing in at the astonished Comanches. Fighting back with only their knives, the Comanches were killed outright or taken prisoner.[5]

* Buffalo Hump gathers the tribes*

_Main article Buffalo Hump_. Comanche War Chief Buffalo Hump was determined to do more than merely complain about what the Comanches viewed as a bitter betrayal; spreading word to the other bands of Comanches that he was raiding the white settlements in revenge, Buffalo Hump led the Great Raid of 1840.[5] Buffalo Hump gathered a huge raiding party, at least 400 warriors, with wives and young boys along to provide comfort and do the work. All together, as many as a thousand Comanche may have set out from West Texas on the Great Raid.[3] On this raid the Comanches went all the way from the plains of west Texas to the cities of Victoria and Linnville on the Texas coast. In what may have been the largest organized raid by the Comanches to that point, they raided and burned these towns and plundered at will.[6]

*Victoria is the first town attacked*

The huge war party crossed into central Texas and first attacked the town of Victoria. Although rangers had found the tracks of a gigantic war party coming out of West Texas, and were shadowing the onrushing Comanches, part of the war party broke off and attacked Victoria before the citizens could be warned. One resident wrote, "We of Victoria were startled by the apparitions presented by the sudden appearance of six hundred mounted Comanches in the immediate outskirts of the village."[7] The citizens of Victoria hid in the buildings, and the Comanches, after killing a dozen or so townspeople and riding up and down, departed Victoria when rifle fire from the buildings began to make the riding dangerous. The war party intended to gather horses and loot the coastal towns, which were not as prepared for the Comanches as the central Texas cities.

*The Sack of Linnville*

On August 7, 1840, the Indians surrounded the small port of Linnville, Texas, which was the second largest port in the Republic of Texas at the time, and began pillaging the stores and houses. Linnville, which is now a ghost town, was located 3.5 miles northeast of present day Port Lavaca.[8] The Comanches reportedly killed three whites, including customs officer Hugh Oran Watts, who had delayed his escape to retrieve a gold watch at his home (reportedly a family heirloom). After killing Watts, the Comanche captured his wife of only three weeks, the former Juliet Constance, and a black woman and child.

Realizing that the plains Indians would have no experience on water, the townspeople fled prudently from the Comanche raiders to the safety of the water. They were saved by remaining aboard small boats and a schooner captained by William G. Marshall, which was at anchor in the bay. While safe in the water, the refugees witnessed the destruction and looting of their town, unable to do a thing except curse impotently.[9]

For that entire day the Comanches plundered and burned buildings, draping themselves grandly in top hats and stolen linens. They tied feather beds and bolts of cloth to their horses, and dragged them. They herded large numbers of cattle into pens and slaughtered them. One outraged citizen, Judge John Hays, grabbed a gun and waded ashore through the shallow water, and roared at the bemused warriors, but the Indians chose to spare him, believing him mad. He later found that he had waded ashore to face nearly a thousand Indians with an unloaded pistol, not that one weapon could have made a difference.[10]

At the time of the Great Raid, many trade goods were en route from overseas to New Orleans, Louisiana to San Antonio, Texas and Austin, Texas; a total inventory valued at over $300,000 was reported to be at Linnville at that moment, including an undisclosed amount of silver bullion. Linn noted that in addition to the cloth and other trade goods usually present in his warehouse at that time were several cases of hats and umbrellas belonging to James Robinson, a San Antonio merchant. "These the Indians made free with, and went dashing about the blazing village, amid their screeching squaws and `little ******,' like demons in a drunken saturnalia, with Robinson's hats on their heads and Robinson's umbrellas bobbing about on every side like tipsy young balloons."[3] After loading the loot onto pack mules the raiders, grandly attired in their booty, the war party finally began its retreat on the afternoon on August 8, 1840.

*The Battle of Plum Creek*

_Main article Battle of Plum Creek_. The Rangers had been trailing the war party for some time, unable to engage them because of sheer numbers. But the looting at Linnville gave the Rangers a chance to gather militia and all Rangers companies, and engage the Comanches at Plum Creek, Texas. Volunteers from Gonzales, Texas under Matthew Caldwell and from Bastrop under Ed Burleson had gathered to attempt to stop the war party and together with all the ranger companies of east and central Texas, moved to intercept the Indians, which they did at Plum Creek, near the city of Lockhart, Texas on August 12, 1840.[5] Buffalo Hump had lost total control of the raiding party. In theory, all loot belonged to the ranking war chief, who could hand it out as he chose. In reality, no war chief could have told the cheerful raiders that they had to give up the cloth, weapons, food, and horses that they knew would make them rich among their people.[11] The battle of Plum Creek was really a running gun battle, where the Texans attempted to kill the raiders and recover loot, and where the Indians simply attempted to get away. Although only a dozen bodies were recovered, the Texans reported killing 80 Comanche, and the war party losses were probably higher than normal, as the deadly Comanche light cavalry simply escorted the slower pack mules. The militia, once they had sized part of the plunder, divided it, and went home. Ironically, the same thing that had allowed the militia to do what they never could have done normally, greed, saved the Comanche. Their greed had slowed the Comanche's normally fast light cavalry to a trot acceptable to the heavily ladden pack mules, as they refused to obey Buffalo Hump, and abandon some of the loot. Thus, the militia and rangers caught them, which normally they could have never done. But that same greed saved them, as the militia simpy abandoned the fight once they discovered the stolen bullion, as they divided it, and went home.

*Conclusion*

The Great Raid of 1840 was the largest Indian raid on white cities in the history of what is now the United States - though technically when it occurred it was in the Republic of Texas and not in the United States. The war party literally burned one city to the ground, and treed another completely. They stole over 3,000 horses and mules, and hundreds of thousands of dollars of other plunder, ranging from silver to cloth and mirrors. Unfortunately for the war party, the sheer volume of loot slowed them down, and made them vulnerable to attack from a militia that otherwise would never have caught them.[12] Equally, the militia missed an opportunity to destroy the bulk of the raiding party when they concentrated on recovering and dividing the recovered bullion and other plunder.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

Stumpgrinder said:


> Some of the posts just crack me up. Thanks you all for some good laughs.
> 
> Its fiction boys and girls. It came out of thin air into a talented writers brain and then to paper and finally a mini series. It never happened.
> 
> In fiction land a parrot could rule the world. A talented black guy could be a Texas ranger and for that matter Betty Boop could be the governor.


you mean that wasn't real............darn,,,,,,back to therapy......

.


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## pabloag (Jan 13, 2007)

nice read on the history FlakMan.

did a little digging and found out that Jaguars in Texas were actually not uncommon in those days. 

I enjoyed part III.


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## stovepipe (Dec 21, 2004)

Two things I wish about this fiction epic.....I really wish

that Call would take in Newt as his own and aknowlege him as his son....

and that they would have given Jake a "pass" in Kansas....


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## Super Dave (May 26, 2004)

could someone explain to me what happened at the end when the posse corralled Blue Duck's band of renegades. Gus was ok with hanging 6 but not 8. What was that about? Then he proclaimed the 2 not being hanged would be converted into Rangers? WTH? That dialogue went right over my head. The 6 to be hanged seemed to be half breeds and dark skins. Was this a racist thing? Then Blue Duck was close enough to kill 3 horses with one shot each but not close enough for the Rangers to shoot him as he rode away? Just two examples of some pretty poor plot for such a supposed band of righteous and tough Texas Rangers. More like a bunch of wusses.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

Superdave

In the book these two young men were of some help to the rangers and thier lives saved as they were thought to be like a younger version of the two Captains.

The Rangers were shooting the lighted loaded black power 44 rim fire (pistol ammo) in Henry and 1866 Winchester lever action rifles. Very poor at ranges much over a 100 yards. Great weapon at close range but not at great distance.










Blue duck was shooting a 1868 Standard US Army single shot rolling block Sharps in 50/70 caliber. The standard loading for the .50-70 was 70 grains of black powder and a 425-gr. bullet; powerful medicine for 1866, and still no slouch today.


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## flatzman (Apr 5, 2005)

stovepipe said:


> Two things I wish about this fiction epic.....I really wish
> 
> that Call would take in Newt as his own and aknowlege him as his son....
> 
> and that they would have given Jake a "pass" in Kansas....


If Call did that, then the movie would be pretty pointless. To me that is what makes it interesting. Call is a classic example of a hero with a tragic flaw. What makes him great is also his greatest weekness - pride. Gus and Woodrow need each other. Gus is undeciplined and therefore needs Woodrow becaouse he is ruled by his heart and emotiongs. Woodrow needs Gus because is his compass for his concience. Without Gus, Woodrow is lost..and that's why we can't get enough.


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## ZenDaddy (May 22, 2004)

Stumpgrinder said:


> Some of the posts just crack me up. Thanks you all for some good laughs.QUOTE]
> 
> Yup. This has been a great post. Some posted their thoughts, others took the time to post fantastic history pieces, and others posted .... welll, others posted.
> 
> Sounds kind of sorry, but my family was not really into the show, and neither are my friends or co-workers. It was nice sharing with you folks!


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

stovepipe said:


> Two things I wish about this fiction epic.....I really wish
> 
> that Call would take in Newt as his own and aknowlege him as his son....
> 
> and that they would have given Jake a "pass" in Kansas....


Gus to Jake as he was about to be hanged. "There's a line Jake, and you crossed it." Case closed in their eyes.


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## stovepipe (Dec 21, 2004)

activescrape said:


> Gus to Jake as he was about to be hanged. "There's a line Jake, and you crossed it." Case closed in their eyes.


Call was the one who forced the issue and they *were right to do it*....I`m just sayin I WISH they had given him a pass....

I promise you if Call had said, "Augustus, let the scallywag go!"...after they had hung the other 3 hooligans....that Gus (a man with a forgiving nature) would have gladly spared him........

but, of course, Call did everything in his life by his hard-headed code....instinct....ALWAYS, NEVER YIELDING...EVER...

basicly, outliving everyone else and ending up as a character of despair...with a wretched existance....to the bitter end..


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

stovepipe said:


> Call was the one who forced the issue and they *were right to do it*....I`m just sayin I WISH they had given him a pass....
> 
> I promise you if Call had said, "Augustus, let the scallywag go!"...after they had hung the other 3 hooligans....that Gus (a man with a forgiving nature) would have gladly spared him........
> 
> ...


I guess it's fun to try and speculate about what fictional characters created by someone else would have done in any situation.

In the movie LD though the two things said about Jake's hanging by Gus and Call were the quote above and Call's observation after Jake said, "I was just trying to get through the territory!" Call's response was, "A man that goes along with 5 murders is taking his leave mighty slow!" As Call rode away after saying that Jake asked Gus, "Where's he going?" Gus says, "To look for a suitable hanging tree." I might have those quotes off by a word or two but that is how it came down. So what we know, by what happened in the movie, is that Gus and Call both agreed that Jake HAD to be hanged, whether they liked it or not. As a matter of fact, from watching the movie so many times it's real obvious that no one who knew Jake was happy about what happened. They did not like it. We are SUPPOSED to feel bad because Jake had to get hanged. It's one of those deals where, dang, I can't believe it came to this!But in the code of the old west there was only one thing to do. These guys were law men. 
To think that a law man might have let a man burning murderer(guilt by association) go is like saying cop nowdays that knew his friend was a murderer, or was present during a murder and did'nt try to stop it, didn't report it and in fact went along with a few more should have a forgiving nature and let him go on his merry way. It just doesn't work like that. 
Gus is my favorite in the movie, and he is a fun loving, irreverant free spirit, but he had a clear compass for right and wrong and adhered to it as far as I can tell by the movie, and that's all we have. I can't guarantee anything about what anyone in the movie might have done, I can only tell you what I think they might have done. 
See, the thing is, it's McMurtry's story. He already wrote it and we know what they did and how it ends.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

This is the histoic basis for the Lonesome Dove series:

During the 1850s, the Rangers were intermittently called on to deal with this problem, and with the election of Hardin Richard Runnels as governor in 1857, they once again regained their role as defenders of the Texas frontier.

On January 27, 1858, Runnels allocated $70,000 to fund a force of Rangers, and John Salmon "Rip" Ford, a veteran Ranger of the war with Mexico, was commissioned as senior captain. With a force of some 100 Rangers, Ford began a large expedition against the Comanche and other tribes, whose raids against the settlers and their properties had become common.

On May 12, Ford's Rangers, accompanied by Tonkawa, Anadarko and Shawnee scouts from the Brazos Reservation in Texas, crossed the Red River into Indian Territory and attacked a Comanche village in the Canadian River Valley, flanked by the Antelope Hills in what is now Oklahoma. Suffering only four casualties, the force killed a reported 76 Comanche (including a chief by the name of _Iron Jacket_) and took 18 prisoners and 300 horses.
In December 1859, Ford and his company were assigned to Brownsville, in south Texas, where the local Mexican rancher Juan Cortina had launched an attack and briefly occupied the town and later conducted a series of guerrilla actions and raids against local American landowners. Together with a regiment of the U.S. Army commanded by Major Samuel P. Heintzelman (who later became a notable general of the Union in the Civil War), Ford's Rangers took part in the Cortina War, and on December 27, 1859, they engaged and defeated Cortina's forces in the battle of Rio Grande City. Pursued and defeated by Ford and his Rangers again a few days later, Cortina retreated into Mexico, and although he would continue to promote minor actions against the Texan ranchers, the threat of a large-scale military incursion was effectively ended.

The success of these campaigns marked a turning point in Rangers' history. The U.S. Army could provide only limited and thinly stretched protection in the enormous territory of Texas. In contrast, the Rangers' effectiveness when dealing with these threats convinced both the people of the state and the political leaders that a well-funded and organized local Ranger force was essential. Such a force could use the deep familiarity with the territory and the proximity with the theater of operations as major advantages in its favor. This option was not pursued in the light of the emerging national political problems, and the Rangers dissolved until 1874. However, the conviction of their usefulness had become firmly established, and the agency was eventually reconstituted.[


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## word-doctor (Sep 20, 2005)

The one thing I take away from Call's behavior is that the very worst thing we can do is to not accept what we've done, both good and bad, and live with the consequences. Giving Newt his horse and watch--but not his name--is as close as he can get to "admitting he's human" (Gus' words) and not a failure to his code of behavior. Dr. Phil would have a frikkin' field day.

I don't know if this is in one of the footnotes in FlakMan's post, but Wilbarger's _Indian Depredations in Texas_ is one of the classic reference works for this part of history. The man who IDs the Suggs Brothers in LD (the one's Jake hangs with), is named Wilbarger... also a creek in the central part of the state.

Below is an old picture of the Battle of Plum Creek. I think there's a really big version of this in a hotel in San Antonio. Cormac McCarthy based one of his 300-word sentence prose descriptions in _Blood Meridian_ on what the painting/s show--note the umbrellas and top hats from Linnville!


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

word-doctor said:


> The one thing I take away from Call's behavior is that the very worst thing we can do is to not accept what we've done, both good and bad, and live with the consequences. Giving Newt his horse and watch--but not his name--is as close as he can get to "admitting he's human" (Gus' words) and not a failure to his code of behavior. Dr. Phil would have a frikkin' field day.
> 
> I don't know if this is in one of the footnotes in FlakMan's post, but Wilbarger's _Indian Depredations in Texas_ is one of the classic reference works for this part of history. The man who IDs the Suggs Brothers in LD (the one's Jake hangs with), is named Wilbarger... also a creek in the central part of the state.
> 
> Below is an old picture of the Battle of Plum Creek. I think there's a really big version of this in a hotel in San Antonio. Cormac McCarthy based one of his 300-word sentence prose descriptions in _Blood Meridian_ on what the painting/s show--note the umbrellas and top hats from Linnville!


Great stuff, thanks. 
It occurs to me that Call might really believe that Newt might not be his. Maggie was a whore, right? Everybody seems to believe it's the truth, but where's the proof? 
Interesting that Wilbarger comes up. I own some land in Locker, Tx. Not far south of where the Colorado river crosses highway 45, between Brownwood and Richland Springs, you cross Wilbarger creek. I've been by there hundreds of times. So, did the Suggs get hanged near there, or is it possible to even know? I mean, is that part fiction or is it based in fact?


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## Walkin' Jack (May 20, 2004)

I just got this. If anyone is interrested in getting this movie on DVD here is a chance to do it and save some $$$$.

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Comanche-Moon-Official-Announcement/8811


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