# Calling all 6.5 creedmoor reloaders



## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

Soon I will start rolling my own rounds for my 6.5 creedmoor. Issue I am having, is picking out my dies. I have use the regular old Lee die sets up to this point, as I did not need the fancy stuff trying to squeeze every little bit of accuracy out of my rounds. However, with the new RPR, I will be doing just that.

Currently looking at either Redding or Forester dies. But have also seen the Hornady match set. What dies do you use or suggest? FL or just Neck sizing? I read a lot of conflicting stories, so I'm trying to see what everyone else uses in the real world. I do not want to spend $200+ on a set of dies, I'm not that serious yet.

Looking at these currently:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/938948/redding-deluxe-3-die-set-65-creedmoor

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/543331/hornady-custom-grade-new-dimension-2-die-set-65-creedmoor

Thoughts? Suggestions?


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## BradV (Jun 27, 2012)

Since it is a bolt gun I try neck sizing and only bump the shoulder back if necessary.

I load my .260 with Forster dies and they are my favorite of what I have used so far. It is an auto so I have to F/L size. I especially like the bushing seater die for reducing runout on loaded rounds. Cant go wrong with the redding dies either. 

That redding set you have is perfect for beginning precision reloading. You may want more advanced dies later but they will get the job done.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

I'd pay the 20 dollars or so more and get the Redding three die set with S bushings. Gets you a bushing die for neck sizing, a body die, and the seater.


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## Wado (May 15, 2011)

*Wilson*

Some may turn their nose up at Wilson's but they sure make a fine trimmer and I have a couple of chamber type seater dies. They poke the bullet's in as straight as you can get them. The downfall is you need an arbor press, I use my drill press quill and I also have a small arbor press but prefer the drill press. A bit on the pricey side also.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...-5mm-creedmore-sku749058156-36975-123419.aspx


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

Thanks for the input guys. I have some research to do on how the bushing dies work, that way I can put it all together in my head and understand it.


Just when I was getting everything dialed in with the other calibers I load, I had to go expand into the "precision" universe.


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

I dont have any 6.5's but have used the bushing dies on my 308 loads. I wanted to see just how good i could get the ammo and gun to work over my normal. Useing L.C brass i sorted by wieght, then by web, then full length sized, then turned the necks down even, then finally used the rcbs gold medal bushing die. I had bought a few different size bushings because i know it changes with brass brands and such. Did a few, measured neck tention, it was good IIRC on the first try. I dont remember the exact # but think you go .002 less than bullet o.d. Then uniformed the primer pockets and flash hole to the same size. Sorted the 178 amax's by weight, then ogive. Loaded and tested. Run out was great. Tested and it made maybe .1-.2 moa from my other match loads. SD's was 8 or 9. Knowing my 5R has a long throut i wondered if it was the gun makeing it not do so much better than normal. I also found that alot of the brass split on the next neck sizing. These were not hot loads either. Maybe a 6.5 would show more results but im just doing normal neck and match dies for now. 

Would love to know how much of an improvement you guys found going all out vs sort by wieght, and useing match dies?


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

If you are getting split necks due to simply neck sizing, there is something wrong. Likely the brass. I have piles of .308 brass that has been neck sized 10+ times. The primer pockets eventually get sloppy so they become scrap. Split necks are very, very, very infrequent. And, this is with hot, but not over the top, loads. 

That said, there is an ammo re-manufacturer out there that uses LC brass. Huge percentage of their LC brass will show split necks when fired. I think their re-manufacturing process hardens the brass to the extent it splits upon firing or upon reloading. 

Chase - an S die is simply a full length die or a neck die with replaceable bushings to size the necks. It allows you to tune/uniform the neck tension. Redding calls them S dies. Other makers have very similar designs, and some can even use Redding bushings. 

A "traditional" 2 die rifle set uniformly sizes the inside of the neck. Its not adjustable. Neck tension is set by the diameter of the expander button. 

First, the die squeezes down the outside of the neck, and then the expander button opens it back up. If you don't use the expander button, the neck is way too small to reload. So, traditional dies over work the necks, and pulling the expander button thru can increase runout. 

And, to change neck tension, you have to buy additional expander buttons and then polish them to size (an imprecise and time consuming process). 

An S die can be used without an expander button. You just size the outside of the neck only as much as needed to give you the desired neck tension.


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## Jungle_Jim (Nov 16, 2007)

Ernest said:


> If you are getting split necks due to simply neck sizing, there is something wrong. Likely the brass. I have piles of .308 brass that has been neck sized 10+ times. The primer pockets eventually get sloppy so they become scrap. *Split necks are very, very, very infrequent. And, this is with hot, but not over the top, loads. *
> 
> That said, there is an ammo re-manufacturer out there that uses LC brass. Huge percentage of their LC brass will show split necks when fired. I think their re-manufacturing process hardens the brass to the extent it splits upon firing or upon reloading.
> 
> ...


Yep, in my experience LC brass needs to be annealed or premature case neck splitting will happen.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

No. You either are buying chitty brass or have bad reloading practices. Simple as that.


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## Jungle_Jim (Nov 16, 2007)

Ernest said:


> No. You either are buying chitty brass or have bad reloading practices. Simple as that.


You make a lot of retarded comments just like that one. Lake City once fired brass is not chitty. My reloading practices are not either. Premature neck splitting happens with some lots of LC brass. I can't help it if you don't know that. I anneal mine, I don't give a **** what you do.


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

Jungle_Jim said:


> Yep, in my experience LC brass needs to be annealed or premature case neck splitting will happen.


Ive never realy seen splits on the normal sizing i do with it. Its also not at the mouth edge but at the bottom of the neck area. Which just so happens to be where the cutter stops when i turned the necks. I had thought either i worked it to hard or shaved to much off on the necks with the cutter. I'd have to look at my notes but i left what ever is popular for neck wall thickness (maybe .008?) I was gonna figure it out but after the results from all that prep and no real gain i just lost intrest in going that far with it. The way i look at it, less than .3 moa difference just wasnt worth it for the shooting i do. Rather make 200 more rounds to shoot than 20 in the same time that one wrong puff of breeze could make null and void.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Speaking of retarded comments, first you claimed that LC brass needs to be annealed or the necks will prematurely split. Now, its just some lots. 

All the while, LC brass is the "standard" for competition brass in 5.56/.223. Not the absolute best, but the standard. 1000's upon 1,000's of users, firing 1,000's upon 1,000's of reloaded rounds each. Virtually none are claiming premature neck splits or some urgent need to anneal the brass. 

So, put these facts together. Help us out here. What conclusion could be drawn other than you got some real chitty brass or you don't know what the F you are doing? 

I'm going with, you don't know what the F you are doing. When your personal experience is vastly different from that of 1,000's upon 1,000's of other users, that typically means its you, not the product.


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

Ernest said:


> Speaking of retarded comments, first you claimed that LC brass needs to be annealed or the necks will prematurely split. Now, its just some lots.
> 
> All the while, LC brass is the "standard" for competition brass in 5.56/.223. Not the absolute best, but the standard. 1000's upon 1,000's of users, firing 1,000's upon 1,000's of reloaded rounds each. Virtually none are claiming premature neck splits or some urgent need to anneal the brass.
> 
> ...


Good grief you feel better now. :/


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## 223AI (May 7, 2012)

In the competition shooting that I do, once fired LC brass is most definitely NOT the standard. Go down the line, and you'll see lapua/VIRGIN LC/hornady/nosler/remington/winchester...in that order. Buying once fired LC brass is a lesson in futility, in my opinion, especially for competition shooting.

Once fired Lake city absolutely needs to be annealed, if for no other reason than you have no idea as to what chamber it was fired in. Most of 223 brass that is bought is likely fired in a loose chambered m4 or machine gun, and if you do not anneal it before sizing, you're overworking the brass... which can cause the neck splitting. Bad ju-ju all around.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

No, you are confused about neck splits vs. sloppy head space and body dimensions. 

We know the size of the neck prior to firing, right? Bullet diameter plus brass thickness x2. It was annealed prior to that first loading, and it has expanded once. It can't expand beyond the neck diameter of the chamber. 

The expansion in question for this thread is only the neck. In that regard, the .223 wilde has a greater diameter at the case mouth than the NATO chamber. Goes like this: 

.223 Match .2541
Nato .2550
.223 Wilde .2558

And, even in a "sloppy NATO chamber", the expansion in the neck is less than a single full length resizing of once fired .223 wilde brass with a traditional die. In other words, you are changing the neck size more just running it thru a full length die than you are shooting it in a so-called sloppy chamber. 

Moreover, the sloppy chamber is with respect to head space and body dimensions, not the neck. The neck does not erode rapidly with use of the weapon. The brass expands to seal the chamber. 

If the sloppy chambers caused split necks, then virtually every piece of brass fired from a .223 wilde chamber would be trashed. And, we all know that's not the situation. Its a crazy popular chamber because it works so well. 

After Lapua, LC is the standard because of the hardness of the brass. Not the hardness of the necks, but the brass in the case head and immediately above the case web. The harder brass maintains primer pockets longer and reduces case separation. And, to buck the wind at the long range, we are are using hot loads. 

Outside of you all's "considerable" experience, there is a big world out there than includes tons of shooters of 6x45 and other .223/5.56 wildcats. For 6x45, we take once fired .223/5.56 brass, ram it down on a mandrel, expand just the necks, and seat a 6mm/.243 bullet. And, even with that crazy expansion of the necks, you lose very few to split necks. 

The last 1,000 I expanded, I lost only 4. Out of a 1000 random once fired LC cases of unknown lineage. I full length resized them to .223 (more expansion/contraction than firing in a sloppy chamber) and then blew them out to 6mm (-.003) on a mandrel. Lost 4. Failure rate of .4%. 

How many "machine guns" do you think exist in the world in 5.56 with a neck larger than 6mm (-.003) plus 2x brass thickness? Basically none.

Oh, and it gets better. I have discharged 3,000 rounds of this same brass in a 6x45 chamber. I have 500 pieces of this same random LC brass that was not only expanded beyond any sloppy chamber imaginable the first time I loaded, but was then fired 3x in a 6x45 chamber. Each time, the necks expanded even further. And, each time, the brass was full length resized. Lost 2 out of that 500 due to split necks in 1500 pulls of the trigger. And, my experience is hardly unique. 

But, this thread does illustrates why I only rarely participate on this board.


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

Well... this is interesting.


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## 223AI (May 7, 2012)

Ernest said:


> No, you are confused about neck splits vs. sloppy head space and body dimensions.
> 
> We know the size of the neck prior to firing, right? Bullet diameter plus brass thickness x2. It was annealed prior to that first loading, and it has expanded once. It can't expand beyond the neck diameter of the chamber.
> 
> ...


Calm yourself....I have the luxury of not guessing, as I regularly gun 2 6x45's, a 223ai, a 6.5x47 (main comp rig), a loooong throated .223 (trainer), a .308, and a 6.5 creed. Feel free to disagree with me all that you want.

Very simply, overworked brass can cause multiple issues...to include split necks and case head separation. Anneal the once fired LC brass, size appropriately, and go forth and prosper. Fail one of these steps, and there is a higher likelihood of brass problems ...especially if you have no idea in what chamber it was fired in, if it was truly once fired, what chemicals (if any) were used to clean it (if you bought cleaned brass).

Edited to add that it's .223 "wylde" not .223 "wilde", but surely with all of your relevant experience, you knew that already.


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## Jungle_Jim (Nov 16, 2007)

Ernest said:


> No, you are confused about neck splits vs. sloppy head space and body dimensions.
> 
> We know the size of the neck prior to firing, right? Bullet diameter plus brass thickness x2. It was annealed prior to that first loading, and it has expanded once. It can't expand beyond the neck diameter of the chamber.
> 
> ...


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

Found a case i did all that work to. It was more of a crack than a split. You can see the cutter mark from trueing the outside before useing the neck bushing die. Besides overworking the brass, i wonder if the change in thickness could cause such a crack? I remember around half doing this. Hope you get it working better than i did Chase


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

Thinking I may stay away from the neck bushing dies for now, and learn on the basic "precision" setup first. Then slowly grow as my knowledge expands. May cost a little more to do it that way, but at least I wont be stuck scratching my head trying to figure out the initial setup.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Play nice boys and girls.

TH


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Chase - the set up of an S type die or a bushing die is super simple. I would argue its easier to set up than a traditional FL die because the instructions provided with a traditional FL die typically has the user grossing under sizing the brass. 

But, whether its a traditional die or an S die, you will be well served to have something like a Precision Mic or other device to measure the head space (case head to datum line length). 

If you use the Precision Mic to perform the measurements, you only need one per family of brass. The .308 version, for example, also works for .243/.260/7-08 to measure the head space. 

Wilde, as in Oscar Wilde. 

As in one of the greatest English language writers of the 19th Century? 

Perhaps his best know work is, anyone, anyone, anyone ....Bueller? 

The Importance of Being ... anyone, anyone, anyone ....Bueller?

Earnest. A play on words - name vs. sincerity. 

One primary theme of that work is ... anyone, anyone, anyone ....Bueller?

Mocking and ridiculing silly social conventions repeated and enforced by bored old women.


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## trout250 (Aug 24, 2005)

check ou the 6.5 creedmoor webb site reloading section most of the guys there are shooting long dist and all have different opinions about neck sizing also


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## WAHOO-YAHOO (Apr 6, 2006)

*I have no experience with the others...*

I like Redding S-Type.

Reading this thread realllly make me miss the Jungle, Right Ernest?


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## jamesgreeson (Jan 31, 2006)

*dies*

If your shooting in the same gun ,only,neck size .
Adjust your over all length to your mag.
i use rcbs dies
dies shoudn't matter ,unless your other steps are right.


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