# 7mm Rem Mag Group Question (Fliers)



## Nathan

Guys,

I have an Elk hunt coming up in October and I have been practicing a fair bit for the hunt. I am shooting a Rem 700, 7 RM. I have some 160 grain Sierra Gameking Handloads for it. I am using 62 grains of Reloader 19 with a federal 215 primer and either federal or remington brass.

Let me also give you a little history on the gun. I have shot 150 grain factory core-lokts, 160 partitions, and 165 sierra game kings. It has always seemed to like the core lokts the best. If I do my part, it seems to shoot any ammo around .75-1 MOA. I decided to try some reloads for it to improve accuracy but I did not really work up a load for the gun, I mainly just changed the seating depth to effect accuracy, since I knew factory loads were way off the lands in most rifles.

I have been practicing a bit at 200 and 300 yards just to get back in tune with the gun. I have been shooting for groups and just for first point of impact. Here are two pictures of my groups, one with the sierra reloads and one with the factory remington loads.

Picasa Web Albums - Nathan

Picasa Web Albums - Nathan

Also, below is a recent 100 yard group with my reloads which does not show the vertical stringing that my 200 yard group does. It could be user error, no idea?

Picasa Web Albums - Nathan

I am wondering what steps I can do to fix the groups since I always seem to have fliers. It seems if I shoot many times I will have two distinct groups. I imagine it will hold .75 MOA out in yardage if I do my part though. What would you all do to improve these groups? I am also worried about the vertical stringing on the reloads. The group seems to head upward.

Thanks a bunch,

Nathan


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## Striker Fisher

Nathan,

Your groups are fine. 

Do not worry about getting better grouping. You are not a Sniper or a NRA Long Range Comp Shooter.

Go have fun. 

SF


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## Texas T

When did Sierra start making 165 grain bullets in 7mm?

I use their 168 gr BTHP when hunting mulies and antelopes at long range in Wyoming. That bullet has just about the optimal weight/shape for a bullet in .284 diameter.

Most of the time vertical stringing is OE but sometimes could be weapon based. From looking at your groups do what Strike Fisher says. Relax and practice and enjoy it.


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## baldhunter

This came from another forum.It's great info and maybe this will help you and others out.
The questions arises often about load development. Should I use the ladder test? Should I use the OCW method? The truth is that you can find your OCW by doing the ladder test. If you find your loads OCW by way of the ladder test and you are not satisfied with the groups youre getting, try another powder and repeat the test. The OCW (optimum charge weight) is when you have a load where loaded slightly higher and slightly lower, nail the same point of impact center to center or very close to it. This OCW may or may not yeild the best groups your rifle is capable of but affords you some lattitude when you screw up your scale a wee bit or some other factor alters your loads behavior a bit. It could also be refered to as a "node" or sweet spot of your barrel. In my opinion, there are a couple of different "nodes". There is the highest accuracy node when you find the best accuracy and there is the OCW node where even if 1 MOA is the best it will do, it is a VERY consistent 1 MOA. You can rely on it daily even if the charge weight is slightly different. Idealy, we want both together but dont always get it. Some may choose their absolute most accurate load while others choose the OCW for a more forgiving load. If youre persistent you can often find both together. Attached at the bottome of this post is a picture showing in detail how this works. It is a black and white copy of an actual test at 100 yards during my development.

You will notice 3 groups with bold arrows pointing them out. These three charge weights offer nearly identical POI's. It just so happens to be that the middle load is the most accurate charge weight. this is the OCW for this bullet and powder. The big plus sign refers to the center of group of the 46.0 load. The hollow circle refers to the center of each group of different charge weights. Notice how both .5 grain up and down from the 46.0 load is of ideal accuracy and the middle of the OCW is the better than expected. When using much larger cases, the load differences may be up to 1.0 grain.

You can find the same thing IF you are persistent and try a wide variety of powders and bullet weights. It took me trying 9 different powders and 8 different bullet types to find this "sweet spot" Of course after finding this load, I loaded 5 more and tested them in a 5 shot group. The result was a .312" 5 shot group. That is very conclusive for confirming and determining that it is a good load.

I find the powder my rifle likes best by shooting several powders with several different bullets at several different charge weights. It becomes very evident which powder it likes when you use it. Every bullet it seems can be made to shoot well and some exceptionally well. Once I nail down the powder, I try different bullets with that powder exclusively untill one shines brighter than the rest. In the case of my latest Hart 308 barrel it is the 168 AMAX and 46.0 of VV N540 seated .040" off the lands. The harmonices are unbeatable.

I hope this helps you understand when shooters refer to "harmonics" and "nodes" or "sweet spots".


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## Bantam1

They look fine to me. I just wonder if the barrel was starting to warm up during your test shots? My POA/POI does not change much in my rifle but its a .308 with a heavy contour barrel, but it can shift slightly once its warm. When testing loads I set a time and space my shots out between that set time. So 2 minutes between shots or 5 minutes etc; This way the test is fairly consistent, or the best amount of control I can use. I still can pull shots and screw up my tests though. 

1.3" at 2-300 yards is good shooting. I wouldn't worry about it. Your 1st shot is the one that counts anyways, so if that is hitting where you want it then don't worry. Just go have fun like eveyrone else said.


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## Nathan

I usually wait a minute or two between shots. I could wait longer and time the interval to be more precise. I guess all this is required for accuracy testing. 

My goal is to achieve the best results possible with the gun on the bench, then I know who to blame when I practice from a field position after doing some pushups to get the blood flowing.


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## baldhunter

What I posted came from another forum.I too work up my loads this way and I've also noticed how the point of impact can shift as you're working your way up.I just never used a different target for each separate load,but after seeing this,I think I will from now on.I found this very interesting so I thought I'd pass it on.


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## Africanut

Ok- nobody else has asked so I will-is rifle wood stock? Verticle up swing is also caused by no free float with a wood stock--shots will walk upwards sometimes as shot strings progress on the lighter contours. Groups are surely acceptable with a "hunter" class rifle though. Ladder type testing is sure-fire using the .25moa/1moa targets for center reference. I think you'll drop any elk out to 450 range with those loads you showed us. .02c


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## Nathan

My rifle is a 700 action in an HS Precision stock, yet it is not glass bedded, just used the aluminum block to bed the rifle. The scope is a Nikon Monarch 3-9x40 in talley mounts. The barrel is a stainless 24", fully free floated however I am not sure on the twist. I think 1-9.

I am thinking of getting the crown touched up by a gunsmith on the factory barrel. I am going to load some 160 accubonds with RL22 as the powder, but I think it will be after the elk hunt. I will perform a ladder test and hopefully get a powder and bullet combination that will consistently shoot under 1/2 inch at 100 yards.

Eventually I would like to get the action trued and mated to a nicer barrel, like a hart or something similar. Then I will have a fully custom gun.

Also, why does the alliant powder reloading catalog only show speer bullets for the 7 RM?


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## Africanut

Nathan said:


> My rifle is a 700 action in an HS Precision stock, yet it is not glass bedded, just used the aluminum block to bed the rifle. The scope is a Nikon Monarch 3-9x40 in talley mounts. The barrel is a stainless 24", fully free floated however I am not sure on the twist. I think 1-9.
> 
> I am thinking of getting the crown touched up by a gunsmith on the factory barrel. I am going to load some 160 accubonds with RL22 as the powder, but I think it will be after the elk hunt. I will perform a ladder test and hopefully get a powder and bullet combination that will consistently shoot under 1/2 inch at 100 yards.
> 
> Eventually I would like to get the action trued and mated to a nicer barrel, like a hart or something similar. Then I will have a fully custom gun.
> 
> Also, why does the alliant powder reloading catalog only show speer bullets for the 7 RM?


When you get ready for the barrel - give Ken or Norm a call @ Brux barrels--must not tell anybody else about them--word hasn't got out good, except for all the shooters that have been setting the records with their barrels of late--guys learned with John Krieger and then went out on their own. Cut rifle barrels and you can get them in all the "in between" twists. They also do skip line fluting - which they are proprietary with, looks like tree bark--really cool looking especially with a chrome moly blued barrel. I have 3 rifles w/ their barrels and the worst one will turn in 5 shot groups @ .45 range that being a .338 Lapua. Have 5 friends wearing their metal on their rifle and all reporting the same results or better. Little tediuos to break-in but, they will clean up in 3 strokes after break-in, PM me if you want the number at some point. Good shooting...


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## sferg

Nathan, 
I too load for a 7mag. New out of the box it would not shoot better than a 3" group. I ended up working up a fine accubond load for it that shoots a .212 group at a 100yds. My rifle likes the accubond .020" off the lands. Get you a oal guage from stoney point and get your some measurements of your rifle's chamber, then try to load them a little off the lands. It made a world of difference. Powder was another factor as said above, I tried several brands and burn rates before settling on the imr4831. On the other hand, My BIG GUN , 300rum, likes them at book specs, no more , no less. My 7mag is a Win Mod 70, the load is 62gr IMR 4831 using a Fed 215m primer and is chronyed @2950. Works like a charm on heavy haired/ skinned Mule Deer and elk BUT the accubond will not properly expand and blow thru a thin slinned white tail unless you hit bone. Does fine for head shots! Where you going Elk hunting?


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## Nathan

Elk hunting in New Mexico, in the Pecos Wilderness near Terrero. 

Is the Accubond too heavy duty for whitetail? I know the partition is too heavy duty. That is why I started using the sierra gameking. The gameking is really lethal on deer.

I have the bullets currently seated .035 off the lands. I think changing the charge and performing the ladder test as suggested by Baldhunter will be the ticket. I am looking for groups less than .4 inches at 100 yards (consistently).

BTW, how long do you wait between shots when firing a group to get maximum accuracy? 

Thanks for the help.


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## davidb

Go forth and slay mighty beasts.

Forget the load work up and tune up for now and practice off hand, on shooting sticks and after doing wind sprints. Get used to a sling or sticks and odd rests like a hat or a back pack.

Elk are pretty big and and easy to hit if you don't get too excited or too winded.

Time spent at the Gym or any Cardio activity will be far better prep than shooting gnat hair groups.

As far as the groups they are pretty good. Vertical = Hot barrel or Operator error (plus other factors such as extreme spread), double groups usually an action bedding issue.

Wait till you get back, then have the gun gone over, refresh the muzzle or re-crown, skim bed the action, check trigger and striker consistency, re-tork action screws and check mount screws.

Or go whole hog and get a new barrel and blueprint the action. But I don't think you need to.

Try Reloader 25 works best for me with 160-175grain bullets. R22 second choice then H870 or H1000

Unit 16 is great, hope you can get away from the USO potlickers.


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## cabosandinh

I'll tell you what your problem is with that 7 Mag : heat

slow powder, lots of it and high velocity

When your group starts to spread in a ' string ' that is a tell tale
sign of barrel getting too hot. You can do several things

1. shoot 10, stop shooting for 20 min then try again
2. get heavier barrel
3. reduce powder and go with a heavier bullet

160 gr will spread less than a 120 gr.

a 3-4" spread @100yd is normal after shooting 50 rds

Being a 7mm Mag, it is a hunting round not target, so all you
care about is first 3 shots from a cold barrel

I have one in Winchester 70 Classic Stainless 
Synthetic Stock, Aluminum Pillar, glass bedded,


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## Redfishr

Nathan said:


> Elk hunting in New Mexico, in the Pecos Wilderness near Terrero.
> 
> Is the Accubond too heavy duty for whitetail? I know the partition is too heavy duty. That is why I started using the sierra gameking. The gameking is really lethal on deer.


No, the accubond is NOT too heavy duty for whitetail or even smaller game.
I shot a Proghorn at 367 yards a couple of weeks back with the 140 grain accubonds in 270 cal.
I recovered the bullet and it weighed about 50% of original weight.
It was expanded perfectly and I was happy with the one shot, drop on the spot kill....
I always wait till the barrel is back to ambient temperature when shooting for groups.
It takes patients....


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## LongRodMaster

X2 the accu bonds work great on WT I load them for both my 270 wsm and 7 mm RM


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## CHARLIE

Years ago my buddy had a Remington 7 Mag and it shot very well. I would shoot it in 200 yard bench matches against bull barell guns.It was a turkey shoot. Winner got a frozen turkey. I used to raffle off those turkeys at work and make money. Yes sir that gun would shoot less than 1 inch at 200 yards. So long ago I dont remember what the load was. 

Yall need to quit worrying about bullets and get you some Barnes TSX and then never have to worry about bullet performance on any type of game and any distance or velocity.

Charlie


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## Ernest

Take an ice chest. Between rounds, pull a cold rag out of the ice chest and place on the barrel. It will reduce the heat in no time flat. Bench rest boys have been doing it for years.


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## Nathan

Shot some more last night at 300 yards. The targets sure look small on 9 power at 300 yards. I decided to try and qualify for the 600 yard range at american shooting center. I managed to shoot a 4" group and stay inside the white circle, so I can now shoot at 400 and 600 yard ranges.

I then followed that up with a 4 shot 2.375" group at 300 yards. I was happy with this group, but would like to get below 2 inches.

On another note, has anyone ever used a Lee Loader? Evidently, you can get a reloading set up for around 100 bucks on Midway by buying a digital scale, powder thrower and Lee loader. I am interested in getting into reloading at my home if it is that cheap.

Thanks,


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## bdriscoll

Nathan,

Be sure you are not loading close to the lands. Due to varients in cases and bullets, you can have some off the lands and some into the lands. This will cause a significat difference in the initial pressures and cause flyers and possible vertical stringing. I always load 10-20 thousands off.

Also, the rock chucker press is a very nice single stage press that can be found for $100 dollars or less.

bdriscoll


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## Redfishr

Thats some fine shootin at 300 yards......


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## Salty Dog

If I was you I'd skip monkeying with that rifle anymore. It looks ready to roll to me. If you can't kill an elk with that you prolly ain't gonna kill one.


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