# It's an employer's world



## Texasfisherman57 (Mar 2, 2008)

sad3smWith thousands of people out of work, employers have the luxury of asking for just about any kind requirement for employment. Have any of you out there been looking for work, like me? Employers are asking for a Bachelors Degree for just about any job now. I saw ads for a drywall estimator and a paint estimator that were asking for BA's. I could almost believe that those ads could ask for an Associates Degree, but a BA? Give me a break....

Whatever happened to asking for years of related experience???


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## gitchesum (Nov 18, 2006)

When I got my job, they were looking for a minimum of a bachelor's degree. Maybe that was just a way to weed out the suckers, but since i had experience, I applied anyway. Got the job, been there 8 years and have had two promotions.


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## Flynm (Mar 22, 2005)

Typically they ask for that or the equivilant experience...


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## Charles Helm (Oct 22, 2004)

On the other hand, you can have too much experience. 20+ years? Sorry, but you are overqualified...


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## Brassnadz (Jun 18, 2007)

I hear ya. I'd take experience over college any day.


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## tinman (Apr 13, 2005)

*Experience*



Charles Helm said:


> On the other hand, you can have too much experience. 20+ years? Sorry, but you are overqualified...


In my book, experience means everything! It is the one thing that you can't get at college. I would much rather have someone that will listen to what I am trying to teach them instead of someone that thinks they already know everything.
If you think having 20+ years of experience works against you, wait until you hit 55! After 55, education or experience means nothing anymore.
The days of loyalty to the employer, and an employer's loyalty to the employee is a thing of the past. There aren't many retirement parties or gold watches given anymore.
Personally, I cashed in my chips after 41 years, and have not missed it one day

Tinman


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## essayons75 (May 15, 2006)

An MBA will get you thrown out of job fairs. Trust me. Tell them who and WHAT you know. If they are looking for a degeee you are talking with the wrong company.

If they are looking for knowledge, you are golden. It is tough right now, contact everyone that you have worked with for the past 20 years, I'm not kidding.

P.S. My brother never opened a college door, but worked off-shore as a fieldhand and field supervisor for 20+ years. He is now a consultant making good money. Offer your knowledge to a counsulting firm.


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## Poon Chaser (Aug 22, 2006)

I am thinking of getting a few back pack blowers and taking over.


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

**** chaser said:


> I am thinking of getting a few back pack blowers and taking over.


Good Luck!! I am thinking of leasing a couple of old ranches I had back in the day that have overgrown airstrips on them--might need some hunters to make it look legit.:tongue: rs


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## Poon Chaser (Aug 22, 2006)

Rusty S said:


> Good Luck!! I am thinking of leasing a couple of old ranches I had back in the day that have overgrown airstrips on them--might need some hunters to make it look legit.:tongue: rs


LOL... i like the way you think


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

**** chaser said:


> LOL... i like the way you think


You might be the type of hunter I need. LOL. rs


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## 032490 (Jul 25, 2007)

Texasfisherman57 said:


> sad3smWith thousands of people out of work, employers have the luxury of asking for just about any kind requirement for employment. Have any of you out there been looking for work, like me? Employers are asking for a Bachelors Degree for just about any job now. I saw ads for a drywall estimator and a paint estimator that were asking for BA's. I could almost believe that those ads could ask for an Associates Degree, but a BA? Give me a break....
> 
> Whatever happened to asking for years of related experience???


What I have also noticed is the pay. The interviews I have gone on are paying half of what I was making 5 months ago.


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## Slightly Dangerous (May 21, 2004)

You can thank the lawyers for the demise of that thing called loyalty. Nowadays you have employees taking you to court for everything from a sideways glance to cold coffee in the pot. An emplyer is supposed to jump through a million hoops to take care of the employee but the employee can walk at a moments (or no) notice. In fact most of them just send you an email when they quit...if they tell you at all.

There are just too many workiers out there who feel that the only way they will ever have any money is to sue their employer or to have a fender-bender and take some insurance company for a ride. I've been lucky to get some good, honest staff. I have also been subjected to workers who started out looking great and turned out to be vampires.


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## Bozo (Jun 16, 2004)

I wouldn't let not having a degree stop you from applying for a job.

My current employer just found out I didn't have a degree 3 years after working there. I never represented that I had a degree or did they ever ask during the interview process. I wouldn't have lied about it if they would have asked.

The only way they found out was because of a football conversation that came up during lunch. The boss asked how my school's team was doing this year and I said what school? He said your college team. I let him know in front of everybody that I didn't go to college.

Since then I've gotten a raise, option grants and a promotion so, them learning that after the fact didn't hurt my career in my opinion.

Companies ask for the moon and stars and hope to get a cloud out of the deal.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

I really think that the only thing they're asking for is persistence: a college degree is the first long-term goal that you don't HAVE to complete: just the fact that you've got a diploma means you stuck something out to the end: it may have been easy, it may have been hard, but you kept to it for at least four years or so to completion of the project. It's just a hiring yardstick: once you're hired, you've got your own performance to live and die on...


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## Barnacle Bill (May 21, 2004)

I have a Bachelor's in History and an Associates in Criminal Justice and I was out of work for almost 11 months. I finally landed a job here on Goodfellow AFB because I had veteran's preference (disabled vet) and a degree... and what do I do??? I supervise all custodial workers and laborers at the base Inn...42 women and 7 men.. It's crazy what they're requiring these days.


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## slopoke (Jul 10, 2005)

Rusty S said:


> Good Luck!! I am thinking of leasing a couple of old ranches I had back in the day that have overgrown airstrips on them--might need some hunters to make it look legit.:tongue: rs





**** chaser said:


> LOL... i like the way you think





Rusty S said:


> You might be the type of hunter I need. LOL. rs


Ya'll need a good operations manager that speaks a little Spanglish?

I've noticed a marked difference in the way my company and it's clients view employees and subcontractors as well. It's like an open secret that years of loyal service and being a producer mean nothing in a labor market with double-digit unemployment. I think I'll learn this lesson well now and apply it well when economic indicators improve. Just sayin'.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

I think employers should not only ask for education and experience, they should ask who you voted for as well.


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## slopoke (Jul 10, 2005)

InfamousJ said:


> I think employers should not only ask for education and experience, they should ask who you voted for as well.


It's sort of an open secret at my company. Guess who the producers and new idea/can-do people are versus the negative, bad-attitude complainors.


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## Bily Lovec (Sep 26, 2005)

slopoke said:


> It's sort of an open secret at my company. Guess who the producers and new idea/can-do people are versus the negative, bad-attitude complainors.


hey,
we must work together ! !


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## kenny (May 21, 2004)

I got both. I worked every crappy job there is growing up and through college. High lighting a few, I started shoveling sand out of barges, then filling sand pots, then blasting & painting. Next was galvanizing, then sheetmetal - brake operator at Offenhouser, then industrial fiberglass. After my degree I apprenticed with a monumental steel sculptor.
I had a paint contracting company through graduate school.
Experience is fine BUT I'm sure glad I had the opportunity to get an advanced degree, i'd hate to be doing any of my old jobs at 60.


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## Texasfisherman57 (Mar 2, 2008)

A B.A. will not help you as a drywall estimator.....


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## Sow Trout (Jun 28, 2004)

That is exactly what I was told by the head of HR at my first job after college. A degree only helps with your first job. After that it is about what you do.


dwilliams35 said:


> I really think that the only thing they're asking for is persistence: a college degree is the first long-term goal that you don't HAVE to complete: just the fact that you've got a diploma means you stuck something out to the end: it may have been easy, it may have been hard, but you kept to it for at least four years or so to completion of the project. It's just a hiring yardstick: once you're hired, you've got your own performance to live and die on...


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

a degree proves your responsibility... some may not agree but it shows you committed and finished something that is easy to just skip over.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

A degree just shows that you invested alot of your time and money into your future.... They expect the same dedication to the company.

It also acts as a filter to keep those who are just looking for a place to drop their resume off at.

By asking for a degree, you are weeding out having to ask a person in an interview if they have any computer skills, if they know how to speak english, if they know how to write legibly, etc... just basic stuff like that....

Not saying that not having a BA is bad by any means... just pointing out the reasoning...



Oh, and not to hijack, but this has been bothering me all week... We have been hiring a few people for some upcoming work, and WHAT IN THE WORLD are these people thinking when they come in there??

Backwards hats.. or all dirty.... or with their girlfriend.... or talking on the phone in the waiting area.... or using foul language.... shirts untucked.... etc, etc etc...

Total lack of professionalism.... Even though the jobs we are hiring for dont have alot of skill/knowledge necessary, you would think that people looking for a job in this market would use ANYTHING to get the one up on their competition. Sorry, just a little frustrating and hard to take them seriously when they say how bad they need a job.

Rant over... Sorry


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

Well I graduated from hardknox and it hasn't all been a bed of roses. Now as a boss I look at the resumes and signs of commitments (college or long term commitments to their past employers). I hate to waste time and commitment in training on a job hopper. OK that's my cents from the lower class! lol 

Just wanted to post on this thread.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

InfamousJ said:


> a degree proves your responsibility... some may not agree but it shows you committed and finished something that is easy to just skip over.


Not in my day. Many in the late 60 - early 70s only have a degree because mommy/daddy had enough money to keep them in school - the student deferment bought them a reprieve hoping that the war would be over by graduation. Many even managed to get re-classified 4F before graduating, totally ducking their responsibility. I've worked for/with a number of these putzes over the years.....

I have a lot more respect for a guy that got drafted & served his time. I personally give preference to a veteran for the simple reason that they understand following instruction and coming to work every day. They usually have a much better work ethic, which is something that cannot be learned in college.


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## Blexter (Sep 3, 2009)

This thread should be in the "Jungle" for what I want to say.... so I will make it 'light'
I'm an employer in a service related industry. I have a standing offer to the service techs - 'if you show up each work day (5/wk) ON TIME! - not one minute late for one month. I will give a 10% bonus' It's been 6 months now and I HAVE NEVER HAD TO PAY!
When I hire someone, I have to give them 'contractors safety counsel, background check (no felony record), TWIC card, PPE's, drivers license check etc, etc The point is, I have a lot of money invested in them and want them... need them, to show up and do their jobs. Right now my phone is not ringing much and if I hire.... they cost me and if I have to fire- they cost me- unemployment taxes as well as FUTA (federal unemployment taxes). It costs either way! In this economic environment, I need to be convinced by a new applicant that they will STAY whatever their CV says or educational background. 
I have not terminated ONE person because of the economic slowdown -which is taking money out of MY pocket ....but my patience with screwin' off now is ZERO. If that makes me a bad employer ... then so be it 
Now what did I start with this post?


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## Eastern Tackle (Oct 28, 2008)

Enjoy.


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## freespool (Oct 1, 2005)

justinsfa said:


> Oh, and not to hijack, but this has been bothering me all week... We have been hiring a few people for some upcoming work, and WHAT IN THE WORLD are these people thinking when they come in there??
> 
> Backwards hats.. or all dirty.... or with their girlfriend.... or talking on the phone in the waiting area.... or using foul language.... shirts untucked.... etc, etc etc...
> 
> ...


I interviewed quite a few this past summer. Hired total of 4 fired 2. One for behavior and one because he was not cut out for this line of work no matter how much either one of us tried. (Marine diesel mechanic)
Some of the people showed up looking pretty rugged. Some of the resumes where funny. The best was " I currently work at a wireless kiosk in the mall, but think being a mechanic would be fun."
That and when their first question is if we run a background check or not?

I do think I recieved a lot more resumes to look at for the ad we ran with the current economy.


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## berto (Oct 14, 2004)

Blexter said:


> This thread should be in the "Jungle" for what I want to say.... so I will make it 'light'
> I'm an employer in a service related industry. I have a standing offer to the service techs - 'if you show up each work day (5/wk) ON TIME! - not one minute late for one month. I will give a 10% bonus' It's been 6 months now and I HAVE NEVER HAD TO PAY!
> When I hire someone, I have to give them 'contractors safety counsel, background check (no felony record), TWIC card, PPE's, drivers license check etc, etc The point is, I have a lot of money invested in them and want them... need them, to show up and do their jobs. Right now my phone is not ringing much and if I hire.... they cost me and if I have to fire- they cost me- unemployment taxes as well as FUTA (federal unemployment taxes). It costs either way! In this economic environment, I need to be convinced by a new applicant that they will STAY whatever their CV says or educational background.
> I have not terminated ONE person because of the economic slowdown -which is taking money out of MY pocket ....but my patience with screwin' off now is ZERO. If that makes me a bad employer ... then so be it
> Now what did I start with this post?


Im with you on that one. I hire someone to take their safety counsel classes and hear how bad they need a job and cant show up at 8am to take the class. or fall asleep during the class and get kicked out.... How can I expect you to be on time when we have a job at 6am?


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

w_r_ranch said:


> Not in my day. Many in the late 60 - early 70s only have a degree because mommy/daddy had enough money to keep them in school - the student deferment bought them a reprieve hoping that the war would be over by graduation. Many even managed to get re-classified 4F before graduating, totally ducking their responsibility. I've worked for/with a number of these putzes over the years.....
> 
> I have a lot more respect for a guy that got drafted & served his time. I personally give preference to a veteran for the simple reason that they understand following instruction and coming to work every day. They usually have a much better work ethic, which is something that cannot be learned in college.


that's a whole other angle there, veterans definitely proved they can cut it with their service outside of a degree... I agree with you on that. And I am not saying all people with degrees are responsible either.. just was trying to point out some reasons employers look for degrees and I think proving you started AND FINISHED something is worthwhile and legitimate in valuing a persons character...


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

w_r_ranch said:


> Not in my day. Many in the late 60 - early 70s only have a degree because mommy/daddy had enough money to keep them in school - the student deferment bought them a reprieve hoping that the war would be over by graduation. Many even managed to get re-classified 4F before graduating, totally ducking their responsibility. I've worked for/with a number of these putzes over the years.....


You really cant compare today to the 60s-70s....

College has pretty much been standardized these days


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## tboltmike (Jun 21, 2006)

The affect of a GLOBAL economy is lowest common demoninator.

Global companies can move operations anywhere and can use this to leverage their positions with governments, unions, even health care issues.


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## kenny (May 21, 2004)

w_r_ranch said:


> Not in my day. Many in the late 60 - early 70s only have a degree because mommy/daddy had enough money to keep them in school - the student deferment bought them a reprieve hoping that the war would be over by graduation. Many even managed to get re-classified 4F before graduating, totally ducking their responsibility. I've worked for/with a number of these putzes over the years.....
> 
> I have a lot more respect for a guy that got drafted & served his time. I personally give preference to a veteran for the simple reason that they understand following instruction and coming to work every day. They usually have a much better work ethic, which is something that cannot be learned in college.


You sound a little bitter there WR.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

justinsfa said:


> You really cant compare today to the 60s-70s....
> 
> College has pretty much been standardized these days


B.S. I've been evaluating/hiring people longer than you been on the face of the earth. When you have 20+ years of experience, do get back to us....



kenny said:


> You sound a little bitter there WR.


Not at all.... although I am now curious in why you think that, kenny??? I simply stated my opinion based on my experience. By the way, I got my E.E. in '70 and immediately went into the service & spent the next 22 yrs there. I have been working in the civilian sector ever since....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

w_r_ranch said:


> B.S. I've been evaluating/hiring people longer than you been on the face of the earth. When you have 20+ years of experience, do get back to us....


Man, I really hate to bust your bubble, but if you are way off....

I dont really care how much experience you have.... The year 2010 is not even REMOTELY comparable to 1960....


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Like tinman said:



> In my book, experience means everything! It is the one thing that you can't get at college. I would much rather have someone that will listen to what I am trying to teach them instead of someone that thinks they already know everything.


I don't care if you want to delude yourself, you are the one who has to live with it, not I...

You claim to be 27 yrs of age... which translates into SOME experience, but not much in relation to say a 40 to 60 yr. old. Say you got your BS/BA at 22 and your Masters at 24. That translates into you having just 3 yrs experience to date and you think you know more than someone with 18 to 38 yrs. experience... Maybe it is just me, but that there is hilarious!!!

Now, with YOUR ADVANCED DEGREE, tell me what you can do for my company's bottom line or any other company's for that matter. Now trot out your quantifiable accomplishments. Do you see where I'm coming from now? Experience wins over a degree 99% of the time. When you have something to backup your degree, you will be much more useful to a company and that is a fact.

Care to explain to this old geezer just how "2010 is not even REMOTELY comparable to 1960"??? I find it interesting how someone who wasn't even born yet can make that statement... Or was it based on something that you were taught in school. If so, did that 'teacher/professor' by any chance get his/her degree in late 60 - early 70s???



> _Many in the late 60 - early 70s only have a degree because mommy/daddy had enough money to keep them in school - the student deferment bought them a reprieve hoping that the war would be over by graduation. Many even managed to get re-classified 4F before graduating, totally ducking their responsibility._


:cheers:


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## monkeyman1 (Dec 30, 2007)

i've made the observation that managers hire future managers. not all managers are inept, but many lack experience to be a manager (were good at golf, sucking up, telling them what they wanted to hear). the managers i speak of prefer to hire someone who looks really snappy in slacks and philadelphia lawyer shoes than someone who really knows the business. wonder why we, in the US, are making less and less manufactured goods? the degrees have been the managers, the guys in charge. they're doing a fine job...


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

w_r_ranch said:


> Like tinman said:
> 
> I don't care if you want to delude yourself, you are the one who has to live with it, not I...
> 
> ...


Yes, my claim is 27 years of age.... and 12 years of full time work in the meantime earning a Bachelors in Business with a minor in Management and an additional minor in Science.

I have worked in retail pharmacy and high end industrial equipment sales. My current field is dominated by people who have much more TIME experience, yet I have no problem keeping up, if not surpassing.

I have the utmost respect for those that have been around the game much longer than me, but it never ceases to amaze me how some people are unable to write a complete sentence or use proper grammar in their reports. Issues as small as not using correct punctuation, spelling and slang terms are commonplace. Even basic math seems problematic.

You have highlighted a great point with your rebuttals. Hiring a person that has the ability to be taught and molded into an accomplished professional is paramount in today's workplace.

Those who are stuck in the past and refuse to accept change are the most difficult individuals to work with.

And in reference to the changes between 1960 and 2010?? How much text can I put in a post on here?

Segregation, Women in the workplace, the birth of the computer, standard levels of education, political changes, social changes.... this list could go on for....well, FIFTY YEARS!!!

And you may refer to it as "deluding," but I would like to extend an invitation for you to come join us and live in REALITY...


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## H2 (Jan 11, 2005)

justinsfa said:


> Yes, my claim is 27 years of age.... and 12 years of full time work in the meantime earning a Bachelors in Business with a minor in Management and an additional minor in Science.
> 
> I have worked in retail pharmacy and high end industrial equipment sales. My current field is dominated by people who have much more TIME experience, yet I have no problem keeping up, if not surpassing.
> 
> ...


Justinsfa, get to work it's after 9:00 AM you should be trying to make your employer a buck or two!


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> Yes, my claim is 27 years of age.... *and 12 years of full time work* in the meantime earning a Bachelors in Business with a minor in Management and an additional minor in Science.
> 
> I have worked in retail pharmacy and high end industrial equipment sales. My current field is dominated by people who have much more TIME experience, yet I have no problem keeping up, if not surpassing.
> 
> ...


You started working full time at 15? I bet you graduated High School at 12.:biggrin: 
Or did you work a full 40 hours + and went to school too. How far did you have to walk in the snow uphill to get to school from your full time job.:biggrin:


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

W.R., I'm a bit confused; when did someone say that having a degree is MORE important than experience?

I can tell you that they are both important and, in most cases, neither is everything (obviously there are some jobs you cannot have without a degree).

Here's an example. I graduated from TAMU in 2003 with a BS in Chemical Engineering. My professors actually DISCOURAGED me from pursuing a higher degree. Why?

Because unless I was planning on going into research, a Masters Degree in Chemical Engineering was no more valuable than a BS + 2yrs experience. So why spend the time and PAY money on additional schooling when I could just get out there, MAKE money, and gain experience that was equally as valuable?

So education isn't everything, but it is something! So, too, is experience!


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

I rest my case...


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

WR, I would add that if an employer is looking at a degree in terms of "commitment" and not because some special training/knowledge is needed, they would probably look at a veteran who had completed their "commitment" in an equal light.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

goatchze said:


> W.R., I'm a bit confused; when did someone say that having a degree is MORE important than experience?


justinsfa & J alluded to this initially. I simply said that I prefer actual verifiable experience over a piece of paper and why I feel that way. The bottom line is that if I (or any other manager) hires someone that doesn't work out, regardless of their degree(s), it reflect poorly on us as managers.

A degree and $4.50 will get you a grande latte at Starbucks.

Verifiable experience, without a degree, will get you the job.



goatchze said:


> I can tell you that they are both important and, in most cases, neither is everything (obviously there are some jobs you cannot have without a degree).


I won't debate you on that point. But let me ask you a question....

Do you think that a university degree is really a requirement to 'pilot' a multi-engine aircraft??? How about the position of 'receptionist'???



goatchze said:


> So education isn't everything, but it is something! So, too, is experience!


Let me ask you another question.... You have been in an accident and you are bleeding very badly and you have a few minutes left. There are 2 individuals present that can help you, one a fresh graduate of John Hopkins University and the other is a recently discharged combat medic with a high school education. Who do you want working on you??? Think hard, cause this could well be the last decision you ever make.









Like I said, "Experience wins over a degree 99% of the time".


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

w_r_ranch said:


> I won't debate you on that point. But let me ask you a question....
> 
> Do you think that a university degree is really a requirement to 'pilot' a multi-engine aircraft??? How about the position of 'receptionist'???


I honestly can't say; my point was that some jobs truly do require a degree (such as mine, or a lawyer, or doctor, etc.) I have little doubt that too many people end up with degrees in basket-weaving and water down the 'value' of having a degree in general. But right now, employers get to be choosy. If they want to require a degree for those positions, that's fine. Taking your pilot example, should they hire someone with a degree, fresh out of school, who just got a license over someone who flew in the airforce for 8 years? No, and I doubt that they would. Should they hire that graduate over someone with 2-3 years experience crop dusting? Maybe so. Like I said, both are important and indicative of the quality of the applicant.



w_r_ranch said:


> Let me ask you another question.... You have been in an accident and you are bleeding very badly and you have a few minutes left. There are 2 individuals present that can help you, one a fresh graduate of John Hopkins University and the other is a recently discharged combat medic with a high school education. Who do you want working on you??? Think hard, cause this could well be the last decision you ever make.


I would take either one.


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## kenny (May 21, 2004)

w_r_ranch said:


> B.S. I've been evaluating/hiring people longer than you been on the face of the earth. When you have 20+ years of experience, do get back to us....
> 
> Not at all.... although I am now curious in why you think that, kenny??? I simply stated my opinion based on my experience. By the way, I got my E.E. in '70 and immediately went into the service & spent the next 22 yrs there. I have been working in the civilian sector ever since....


When you make the statement about "mommy & daddy paying blah, blah............."
it sounds like you are bitter and indulging in a little class warfare. 
Besides the "days of wooden ships and iron men" stuff just gets a little tiring, that's all.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Bobby said:


> You started working full time at 15? I bet you graduated High School at 12.:biggrin:
> Or did you work a full 40 hours + and went to school too. How far did you have to walk in the snow uphill to get to school from your full time job.:biggrin:


Nah, more like walking knee deep in swamp mud dodging alligators and cottonmouths.... haha.... snow would have been a blessing....

I've been working since I was 14. Why are you folks under the impression that a college graduate does not lift a finger until the day after he/she dawns a cap and gown and walks across the stage?

My father owned a power washing company in which I was required to pull 2 all night shifts per week, as well as afternoon, evening and weekend jobs... Cleaning buildings, parking lots, sidewalks, drive thrus, etc.

On top of that, I took care of a local man's livestock every day after school, filling in my spare time by tudoring younger children in mathematics, science and English.

At age 15, I added mowing grass, parking lot cleanup, dumpster cleaning and window cleaning into the mix for many of the Walgreens Drug Stores on the east side of Houston.

At age 16, I scored a job inside Walgreens in the pharmacy department, where I worked as much as possible, all the while taking college credit courses during high school enabling me to enroll in college at age 18 having 36 credit hours (meaning I entered college as a sophomore)

When college came, I was working full and overtime at Walgreens stores in Houston and East Texas. I continued to do so until I moved back down to the coast and took a position as a sales and account manager for a regional company providing industrial and safety equipment to local refineries, chemical plants and contractors. I have since expanded my clientel to include customers all across the United States in addition to new international customers including companies in India, Canada, and Brazil.

Although I don't feel the need to explain my experience or background with you sour-pusses, my mommy and daddy didnt pay for that fancy smancy piece of paper on the wall for me just to sit here and let you blabber about aimlessly without you having to face some sort of snooty little remarks from a little punk kid like me


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## capt.dave (Jan 3, 2007)

Texasfisherman57 said:


> sad3smWith thousands of people out of work, employers have the luxury of asking for just about any kind requirement for employment. Have any of you out there been looking for work, like me? Employers are asking for a Bachelors Degree for just about any job now. I saw ads for a drywall estimator and a paint estimator that were asking for BA's. I could almost believe that those ads could ask for an Associates Degree, but a BA? Give me a break....
> 
> Whatever happened to asking for years of related experience???


Perhaps this is true...however, when the economy is booming, it can be the other way around. Employees have more available opportunities and can be more selective of their employers.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

w_r_ranch said:


> I rest my case...


PS...You have no case Mr. Ranch.... none what so ever....

As unfair and all that jazz as it is, the job market of 2010 favors those with degrees... fight it all you want til you are blue in the face... Then turn on your oxygen bottle and fight it some more....its reality and its not going to change.

The generation before you thought that it was unnecessary to finish high school. Its no different that what you are trying to argue now... College degrees are commonplace in today's society, just like high school educations were 30 years ago. In 30 more years, I am sure that Masters Degrees will be commonplace. As a matter of fact, signs are already pointing to that.

Heres a quick scenario for you. Say you have a grandchild that comes up to you and says, "Grandpa, should I go to college?"

Are you HONESTLY going to say " No, grandchild. Do not go to college. You don't need to."

Now that sir, is a case that can be rested....


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Ok, you did odd jobs like every other person here while they were growing up. I'm not putting you down for working to earning spending money, we all did it so you are not special in that regard.

Like I said, at most you got 3 yrs of experience, nothing more nothing less. To think otherwise is delusional. :headknock

When you interview for your next position, the interviewer will not give a rat's patuwee about your "mowing grass" or "power washing" experience unless that is the position you are interviewing for... When you bring up 'experience' such as this, it highlights you lack of real experience. Sorry, there is no soft way of putting it. You are ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR LAST JOB and chances are you will be caught up in your own B.S. Us 'old farts' are good at separating the wheat from the chaff.

Now as far as your comment: "I would like to extend an invitation for you to come join us and live in REALITY"..... LOL!!! To be honest with you, I doubt that I could work for a company that puts so little value on actual experience and I doubt that they could afford to match my salary, bonuses and benefits even if I was looking. But 'thank you' all the same... that's the REALITY I live in. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: Have fun in your 'career', I wish you the best of luck!!!


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

w_r_ranch said:


> Ok, you did odd jobs like every other person here while they were growing up. I'm not putting you down for working earning spending money, we all did it so you are not special in that regard.
> 
> Like I said, at most you got 3 yrs of experience, nothing more nothing less. To think otherwise is delusional. :headknock
> 
> ...


You just dont get it do you.... You couldnt even get in the DOOR to get an INTERVIEW because you do NOT have the BASIC requirements to do so.

You are stuck in the old age.... You are hard headed... You refuse to even look at any other viewpoint but your own....

And that sir is why you are not comprehending what is being discussed....

We would all LOVE to not drop 50-100k on a college degree and just go use our experience to work for the rest of our little lives, but let me dumb it down for you a tad...

THAT AIN'T HOW IT WORKS THESE DAYS...

When a degree is a prerequisite for even an initial INTERVIEW, you are denied BEFORE you can even plead your case.

And as far as the odd jobs, how can those not chalk up to experience? I tudored kids for years.... as a teacher does....

I operated dangerous and mechanical equipment.... as a mechanic/laborer does....

I ran numbers, did taxes, bid jobs, scheduled employees, etc etc etc.... and that was before I turned 16!

I won't even go into the retail part! Its ALLLL experience! Do you have some kind of special secret magical experience that we dont know about? Let me guess, because you were in the WAR and didn't hide in college like the mommy and daddy loving college students did in your day? Is that what makes you more experienced? Yes, I am sure you have seen many more days of work than I have, but for you to dumb down the significance of a college education to that of a regular old peice of paper is flat out retarded.

I worked for a company as an investment in my future. Part of my college tuition was paid for in exchange for my loyalty to the company. I got stock options, benefits, bonuses, was involved in profit sharing.... does that make me as great as you?... should I drive home the fact that I did that before I had reached your age?

And I hate to generalize the older generations as "old farts," but since we aren't putting things softly, I imagine your company is just keeping you on the payroll because they don't know what else to do with you. It would be pointless to invest any more time or money into training you to work with new technology, not that you wouldn't fight it tooth and nail anyway, because thats "NOT HOW THEY DID IT IN MY DAY." Its just easier to let you sit there and do your own thing than to argue with you. When you retire and they throw you your little party with the sweet little cake, everybody will most likely sigh and say "There goes ol' Mr. Ranch... the old fart thought he knew everything." Two weeks later, they will forget about you as your replacement swoops in and doubles your productivity because he/she will probably being more apt to "learning for the future" rather than "living for the past."

Now go hit up that shuffleboard and down you some tonic.... its almost bedtime ya know....

Sorry to the rest of you all that had to indure this, but all that " I'm older than you sonny boy and I know everything because you were in diapers while I was blah blah blah" doesn't go over well with me...

PS.... Not all people in Mr. Ranch's age group are like this, I would venture to say that most are not....


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## Texasfisherman57 (Mar 2, 2008)

There have been plenty of good points made here. In my opinion, get all of the education you can. The problem is with the employer's attitude and not in education. I actually know companies that want all of their estimators and project managers to have degrees so that the company can tout that. 

No one is going to tell me a college graduate with let's say, an Art Degree, is going to be qualified for a job just because they have a sheepskin. Here is an example: I worked for a major steel service center. This company would only hire college grads for inside sales jobs. These new sales people were put in the warehouse to observe for one week. Early in his slaes carrer, one of the guys they hired made a mistake that was very costly to the company. It was a mistake that would have NEVER happened if he had actually WORKED with what he was selling.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

I went through WCJC to get my Associates of Applied Science in Process Technology to get a job as an operator. Most plants were requiring either that, or 5-10 years of experience. I was fortunate and got hired at Celanese, a small plant outside of Bay City. After a year and a half, I tested and was hired by Chevron Phillips in Old Ocean. They had the same requirements, but have now gone back to taking the best applicant based on test scores and interviewing skills because it turns out that a lot of young folks going through the Process Tech programs are just doing well enough to scrape by and aren't learning much. Some better candidates can be found of the street with more willingness to learn and many have experience from working a craft in a plant. Experience is seeming to be more valuable than a piece of paper that says you are learned. Glad I went through the program, because I applied myself and learned quite a bit which made it easier on me in the workplace to learn my job, but if I had it to do over again today, I wouldn't have spent the money. JMHO


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## Blue Water Breaux (Feb 6, 2008)

justinsfa said:


> You just dont get it do you.... You couldnt even get in the DOOR to get an INTERVIEW because you do NOT have the BASIC requirements to do so.
> 
> You are stuck in the old age.... You are hard headed... You refuse to even look at any other viewpoint but your own....
> 
> ...


Justin,

You can dog ranch all you want, but consider this-

A lot of sales jobs, esp in the oil and gas industry a)require no degree b)require (want) 10+ years of experience. Now, explain the rationale behind your philosophy of having to have a degree now and how times are different now etc. You're right, times are different. Im sad to say I was born into an era of lazy arsed cry babies looking for the easy route. Im willing to bet you its not only having a degree anymore. In many ways, people WOULD rather have experience over a degree...just like other cases, they want the degree'd fella.

I don't agree with the way you attack Ranch either, down the gin and tonic, its almost bedtime? really? Do you know him? Do you know his journey and committment to serve for BOTH of our arses in the service? Ever think thats why he's so passionate about what he believes in? Stop and think about this. I feel like you are being close-minded in regard to his philosophy and view on life. Perhaps Ranch's experiences are indictive of his career arena. Maybe he doesnt live in the big city where degrees seem to be the choice? Weigh your options. He's hardly closed minded and knows quite a bit about what he speaks of.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

justinsfa said:


> Man, I really hate to bust your bubble, but if you are way off....
> 
> I dont really care how much experience you have.... The year 2010 is not even REMOTELY comparable to 1960....


 You're right...now you can actually earn college credit for yoga, and other useless froo froo things...it's all about money and very little about education. I think the people who went to college in the old days probably learned a little more than the ones they're turning out now...JMO


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

I went to college on the GI Bill, drove a truck and wrestled pipe and steel for ten hours a day and went to school for four hours a night for four nights a week to get my degree. My work ethic and the experience I gained helped me blow that first interview away...500 tested, four of us got jobs...same thing at CPC, six hundred tested, 5 of us got jobs. It's about desire. Those who want the jobs will better themselves to get them. There are a lot of useless and lazy college grads out there too...the employers have the hard part, seperating the wheat from the chaff...it's expensive to hire the wrong person.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

The only thing a college degree tells me is that either your parents have money, or you're in debt up to your eyeballs with student loans. I don't care what you know already, but how much you are ABLE to learn and what your attitude is.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> You just dont get it do you.... You couldnt even get in the DOOR to get an INTERVIEW because you do NOT have the BASIC requirements to do so.
> 
> You are stuck in the old age.... You are hard headed... You refuse to even look at any other viewpoint but your own....
> 
> ...


 Youngster your are riight that things are different now then in the past but they are not any better and in many ways worse.

I will say that yes i worked for my experience and knowledge. My junior year in high school I worked as a bricklayer's apprentice to learn some about hard labor and good money. My senior year I worked in the recieving dock at a Sears store. After graduation i was sitting in the parking lot of a local college when I made the decision to start the car and leave rather then register. What I did next is probably one of the key events in shaping me into being a intelligent person. I enlisted in the US Army to become a combat medic. By 19 I knew how to save lives in critically injured individuals and didn't have the all important degree that you spout about. The funny thing is what I learned then is just a fraction of what a combat medic learns today, so yes times do change but they still will save your life with what they have on hand where as the average doctor with at least 8 years of education will be lost with out nurses, respiratory techs, etc. After I got out of the service I worked at the old Jeff Davis Hospital where as a simple orderly was allowed to provide ICU care to patients, complete with giving the meds, adjusting IV rates, etc the same as an RN. Why was I allowed to do it was simple I had real experience and they were short of nurses with ICU experience. Was I legal to do it probably not but the administration knew I had the real experience to keep a patient alive.

How far did I go without a degree, all the way to being the Technical Director of the Pulmonary Disease Section, which ment I was responsible for Respiratory theraphy, Pulmonary Functions Laboratory, and Clinical Studies support for a major Houston Hospital. I did the hiring and firing and fought out that my best techs experience wise were not the ones with the degree but the ones that took the initiative and learned it the old fashion way. The ones with degrees had the theoretical knowledge but not much ability to apply it especially during an emergency. Yes on paper they exceeded all requirement but in the real world of life and death decissions they fell short.
Yes times have changed back then the company was loyal to you as long as you were loyal in return. Back then you worked at one company till you retired and they even spelled your name right on your going away gift. Now days they don't want you to stay that long because you hurt their bottom line. They figure it is easier/cheaper to hire another right out of a diploma mill to replace you.

How long will it take the present generation to learn that maybe it was better back then compared to now. Your word like the companies ment something back then. You took pleasure in doing a good job, now days not as much because if the company is going to turn you over or outsource your job why give a rats arse.

I bet that in a few years you will learn a thing or two about experience versus having a degree to show off to get in for that almighty interview. In some career fields yes a degree is good, but a degree from a college along with a degree from the school of hard knocks is even better.

Now to close I will state that I got out of the health field about 15 years or so back because too many beancounters with degree got into the health fied and worried about what can we charge for procedures and if it didn't return enough then we didn't need to buy the equipment so rather then doing whatever we could to for patient care we had to start justifying it. I was old school where you did what ever for the patient without worrying about P/E costs.

I hope you remember what some of old farts have tried to explain to you in a few years in this thread.

I challenge you to go to another level in your passage through life.


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## Catfishy (Jul 2, 2009)

tu·tor
Function: noun
a person charged with the instruction and guidance of another: as a : a private teacher b : a teacher in a British university who gives individual instruction to undergraduates

Tu·dor
Function: adjective
1 : of or relating to the English royal house that ruled from 1485 to 1603
2 : of, relating to, or characteristic of the Tudor period

So much for that fancy education. I did not go back and count them all, but I think you used the wrong word at least three times.


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## houfinchaser (Oct 10, 2008)

justinsfa said:


> You just dont get it do you.... You couldnt even get in the DOOR to get an INTERVIEW because you do NOT have the BASIC requirements to do so.


It sounds like your proud of your degree and you should be but I have to disagree with you. I have found that a degree is a requirement for many jobs to get in the door but rarely it is for mid or upper level positions. Companies are far more interested in getting someone who was a super star at preforming a similar job/task in the past then they are interested in any degree they got 10 years ago.

And based on your reply there Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Michael Dell, or Steve Jobs wouldn't get in the door for an interview either. None of those guys have degree and all of them or millionaires many times over. We all know there experience and past performance speaks for itself.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Blue Water Breaux said:


> Justin,
> 
> You can dog ranch all you want, but consider this-
> 
> ...


1) I have a college degree... 2) I do not have 10 years of industry experience. Nor do any of our other sales managers.... nor do any of my competitors. I am in the Oil and Gas Industry. The only segment of my industry in sales to NOT have a degree is the sector that is higher in age. Those positions are held due to connections in the industry and good personality. And I will assure you, just like every other profession, when those positions are freed up, they are replaced with someone with a degree. So, I'm really not sure where you are going with that statement. All new incoming sales personell that I know of are required to have a bachelors degree. I have not heard any different since I began my job search in 2004 in the industry.

Unfortunately, in a job posting, you can not just ask for an experienced person, as we have seen, different people see experience in different lights. The employer ends up having to go through each job applicant individually as an INITIAL step and comparing a HUGE variety of different backgrounds. There are too many variances and too much information to process. On the other hand, a degree is black and white. You either have one or you don't. Plain and simple. Its a tactic to weed out those that do not meet their qualifications. You all can get mad all you want, but that's what is happening. Upon meeting the educational requirement, the employer can compare the applicants on an individual basis, but there is much less information to process. All of the excess applicants don't even have to be considered.

This is in addition to the fact that a college degree is a 4 year time and monetary commitment that one has invested in their future. Not only are you paying for the schools educational services, but the student is also incurring living expenses while not having a substancial income. And to boot, the student is surrendering the opportunity to save their investment and go straight into making income. This is not always the case, but I am basing this on Mr. Ranch's stereotypical college student that goes on their parents dime. If you can show an employer that you are willing to invest your time and money into the future, it will reflect that you will more than likely be willing to do the same for the company. And yes folks, I know there are exceptions....

You MIGHT wanna go back through and read the posts again. I would hardly consider anything that I have said as an attack. Stereotypes work both ways, and should you choose to form an idea of one, you should be prepared to be treated as one as well.

I no doubt have respect for all those that have served our country and fought for our freedom, but to look down upon those who did not serve is disrespectful in itself. Serving in the military has NOTHING to do with this conversation. Nothing what so ever, so I'm not real sure why it is being brought into it.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Justin, you gotta realize something: while a degree isn't the same in 2009 as it was in 1960, a real good portion of the HR heads that are out there were of that earlier generation: the baselines may be set to favor degree holders, but if it comes down to actually deciding, these guys are going to pick the experience every single time... A Bachelor's is a dime a dozen nowadays: I've been going for twenty years (from SFA, as a matter of fact) since they handed me my diploma, and I've yet to have a job that it really helped me... besides just the concept that I had a degree... I'll be in on that hire/fire decision myself now: there's no freakin' way I'll pick an unproven quantity with a "B" after his name over somebody who already knows the job: the math just doesn't work... If the latter is 60 years old, that becomes an issue as well, but it's nothing to do with education... requirements for degrees is just a baseline put together by the same committees that do company dress codes: it's pretty much a minor consideration to the guys that are actually out there in a supervisory capacity... I'll take a 4th grade grad that can do his job over a just-hatched PhD any day....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

sweenyite said:


> I went through WCJC to get my Associates of Applied Science in Process Technology to get a job as an operator. Most plants were requiring either that, or 5-10 years of experience. I was fortunate and got hired at Celanese, a small plant outside of Bay City. After a year and a half, I tested and was hired by Chevron Phillips in Old Ocean. They had the same requirements, but have now gone back to taking the best applicant based on test scores and interviewing skills because it turns out that a lot of young folks going through the Process Tech programs are just doing well enough to scrape by and aren't learning much. Some better candidates can be found of the street with more willingness to learn and many have experience from working a craft in a plant. Experience is seeming to be more valuable than a piece of paper that says you are learned. Glad I went through the program, because I applied myself and learned quite a bit which made it easier on me in the workplace to learn my job, but if I had it to do over again today, I wouldn't have spent the money. JMHO


You just said that you got the job because the Process Tech Associates was required to be considered for the position and you had completed the requirements for the degree.

Thats my point. Why would you NOT take the class? It can't hurt, and in your case it was OBVIOUS that it helped... The percentage of people that took that class that could perform operators duties is WAY higher than if you just went out on the streets and considered random people for the job. That would be entirely too much work to do in order to hire someone. Think of all the people that would NOT meet the expectations... The requirement of the class gets rid of that factor


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Catfishy said:


> tu·tor
> Function: noun
> a person charged with the instruction and guidance of another: as a : a private teacher b : a teacher in a British university who gives individual instruction to undergraduates
> 
> ...


3 words out of 10,000??? Wow man... thats a good eye!!!

Where did you learn to cut and paste like that? You would have impressed me if you would have come up with your own definition, or even took the effort to type it yourself.

Unfortunately, you did not.... so the only thing you have proved is that you have mastered how to click, drag and click again. Good Job Tiger!


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## gitchesum (Nov 18, 2006)

In a control room atmosphere, in my 13 years in this environment, I have seen absolutely no difference between a degreed, or a non degreed new hire. Of course the guys that work their way up through the ranks have an advantage due to prior knowledge of the operations of some of the equipment, but the control room is a whole new animal and even some of those guys don't have what it takes to do the job.

The ability to think on your feet and the ability to make the proper decisions in a split second is what makes a good board operator. 

That's not something you can learn in a classroom. Hands on is the only way to learn it.


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## gitchesum (Nov 18, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> 3 words out of 10,000??? Wow man... thats a good eye!!!
> 
> Where did you learn to cut and paste like that? You would have impressed me if you would have come up with your own definition, or even took the effort to type it yourself.
> 
> Unfortunately, you did not.... so the only thing you have proved is that you have mastered how to click, drag and click again. Good Job Tiger!


Why re-invent the wheel?


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## Catfishy (Jul 2, 2009)

justinsfa said:


> 3 words out of 10,000??? Wow man... thats a good eye!!!
> 
> Where did you learn to cut and paste like that? You would have impressed me if you would have come up with your own definition, or even took the effort to type it yourself.
> 
> Unfortunately, you did not.... so the only thing you have proved is that you have mastered how to click, drag and click again. Good Job Tiger!


I is a lowly unedgycated blue collar oprator in a oil refinry. Kant come up wit a defanishun on my own. I had ta cut and paste. :slimer:


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## SpecklFinAddict (Dec 19, 2004)

gitchesum said:


> In a control room atmosphere, in my 13 years in this environment, I have seen absolutely no difference between a degreed, or a non degreed new hire. Of course the guys that work their way up through the ranks have an advantage due to prior knowledge of the operations of some of the equipment, but the control room is a whole new animal and even some of those guys don't have what it takes to do the job.
> 
> The ability to think on your feet and the ability to make the proper decisions in a split second is what makes a good board operator.
> 
> That's not something you can learn in a classroom. Hands on is the only way to learn it.


I keep wondering when they're going to catch on to me!


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

I appreciate everyone's views on this, but it all points to the same conclusion.

Look back through all the posts on here. There are a few coincidences that I have noticed.

Alot of people are talking about the distant past. Again, I reinterate. Today is not how it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago. 

30 years ago, not many people attended college. It was the norm for the majority of the workforce to NOT have degrees. Thats just how it was. My sister and I are the ONLY people in my family with any secondary education. My dad is a well respected and skilled contractor supervisor with 35 years of experience. My mother is a bookeeper for one of the largest corporations in the world with 30 years of experience. Neither have college degrees. Are they good at their jobs? You bet! But guess what, when they started working, they weren't competing against others that WERE equipped with college degrees. 

Today, bachelors and associates degrees are common. They are everywhere. So, if you do NOT have one, you are already at a disadvantage in being asked to come in for a job interview. These degrees are becoming so common that they are almost comparable to what a high school diploma was 30 years ago.

I see alot of folks mentioning that the higher ups in todays companies do not have degrees... Heck, 1 of the owners of my company doesn't have a degree.... But, its normal! That is a sign of that generation. Through time, these folks will retire and be replaced, but notice that alot of the people coming up behind them are degree holders.... before long, the decision makers at the top of the ladder will all have degrees because that is what kind of applicant is being hired.

The same thing happened in every generation prior to mine, and every generation prior to yours. 


Like I said, I dont make the rules, I'm just telling how it is.... Look at whats coming up, not what has passed.


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## bill (May 21, 2004)

when I was in the military, I knew a lot of idiots that had degrees LOL


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## gitchesum (Nov 18, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> I appreciate everyone's views on this, but it all points to the same conclusion.
> 
> Look back through all the posts on here. There are a few coincidences that I have noticed.
> 
> ...


The reason you see more people with degrees in upper management positions is for the very reason you stated. Degrees are much more common place now than they were 30 years ago.

But don't think for one second that the reason those people are in the position they are in is because of that degree. It all comes down to experience. No company would promote someone based solely on their education. They MUST be able to prove they can do the job effectively.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

bill said:


> when I was in the military, I knew a lot of idiots that had degrees LOL


 I hear ya! Had a few officers like that too...


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

gitchesum said:


> The reason you see more people with degrees in upper management positions is for the very reason you stated. Degrees are much more common place now than they were 30 years ago.
> 
> But don't think for one second that the reason those people are in the position they are in is because of that degree. It all comes down to experience. No company would promote someone based solely on their education. They MUST be able to prove they can do the job effectively.


Thats all fine and dandy and I agree that those position holders have a degree because it is a sign of the times, BUT to be considered for their initial position, they MOST LIKELY had to have the degree just to get the interview.

Trace the ladder steps back and the degree was a prerequisite.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

justinsfa said:


> You just said that you got the job because the Process Tech Associates was required to be considered for the position and you had completed the requirements for the degree.
> 
> Thats my point. Why would you NOT take the class? It can't hurt, and in your case it was OBVIOUS that it helped... The percentage of people that took that class that could perform operators duties is WAY higher than if you just went out on the streets and considered random people for the job. That would be entirely too much work to do in order to hire someone. Think of all the people that would NOT meet the expectations... The requirement of the class gets rid of that factor


 It was required whe I was hired, now they don't require it. They learned that the piece of paper did not gaurantee a quality trainee. Anyone can go through the Process Tech courses. But, not everyone can work shift work, think on their feet, and learn to be a subject matter expert on the equipment and systems they operate on a daily basis. It helped me get my first job, but if I didn't have good interview skills, I wouldn't have got that first operator job. That, and experience I got working in the plants earlier on as a contractor.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

College does have it's merits. Not all job fields are the same. I can only talk about mine, because that's what I know. Engineers better go to college. Doctors better go too. But to think you are going to get every job ahead of someone who is experienced but has no degree would be absurd. 
If you have a degree, it IS something to be proud of, a major accomplishment, but it doesn't always make you the best pick. New engineers and the like are usually good sources of comic relief...especially the pompous ones.....


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## berto (Oct 14, 2004)

im still working on my Associates. might take me 5 years but im gonna get it.

when i go on a turn around and throw out that fancy associates degree i get looked down on. My fellow safety professionals want to know how much experience I have and could really give a rats *** about a degree.. And from my experience (for what its worth) id rather work and learn from someone with YEARS of experience. 

BUT you are right. if i decide to go look for another job I will need it and will Def have a better shot at getting the job with a bachelors degree. Its a long term goal that I hope one day I have a chance at completing but as for now I need to make some money and put some experience on my belt.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

berto said:


> im still working on my Associates. might take me 5 years but im gonna get it.
> 
> when i go on a turn around and throw out that fancy associates degree i get looked down on. My fellow safety professionals want to know how much experience I have and could really give a rats *** about a degree.. And from my experience (for what its worth) id rather work and learn from someone with YEARS of experience.
> 
> BUT you are right. if i decide to go look for another job I will need it and will Def have a better shot at getting the job with a bachelors degree. Its a long term goal that I hope one day I have a chance at completing but as for now I need to make some money and put some experience on my belt.


 Yes, it definately won't hurt you to have it. The best approach is a mix of a degree AND experience- which you are getting on the turnarounds. You shouldn't have a problem, stick with it. It can be tough, it took me three years to earn my associates because I worked 60 hours a week and went at night. It's been worth it, I couldn't picture myself doing anything else so I guess I ended up where I need to be.


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## SpecklFinAddict (Dec 19, 2004)

I wish I'd went to a 4 year school...they have some good parties, and don't forget SPRING BREAKS!!!!:cheers:

Seroiusly,as a father and non 4 year graduate I see both sides of this argument. The degree doesn't make the man, or women, but would you honestly tell your kid to not try and get one? Anything you can do to get that extra edge up is a plus in life and todays job market.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

FlatoutFishin said:


> I wish I'd went to a 4 year school...they have some good parties, and don't forget SPRING BREAKS!!!!:cheers:
> 
> Seroiusly,as a father and non 4 year graduate I see both sides of this argument. The degree doesn't make the man, or women, but would you honestly tell your kid to not try and get one? Anything you can do to get that extra edge up is a plus in life and todays job market.


 agreed! any edge is an edge. My argument was that it just doesn't always make you the best candidate in every situation as someone on here seems to think. I will send my kids...if they want to go.


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## scwine (Sep 7, 2006)

FlatoutFishin said:


> I wish I'd went to a 4 year school...they have some good parties, and don't forget SPRING BREAKS!!!!:cheers:
> 
> Seroiusly,as a father and non 4 year graduate I see both sides of this argument. The degree doesn't make the man, or women, but would you honestly tell your kid to not try and get one? Anything you can do to get that extra edge up is a plus in life and todays job market.


Well stated.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

berto said:


> im still working on my Associates. might take me 5 years but im gonna get it.
> 
> when i go on a turn around and throw out that fancy associates degree i get looked down on. My fellow safety professionals want to know how much experience I have and could really give a rats *** about a degree.. And from my experience (for what its worth) id rather work and learn from someone with YEARS of experience.
> 
> BUT you are right. if i decide to go look for another job I will need it and will Def have a better shot at getting the job with a bachelors degree. Its a long term goal that I hope one day I have a chance at completing but as for now I need to make some money and put some experience on my belt.


I promise you that your degree is not looked down upon man. Now, some may be JEALOUS of it, but it is not looked down upon.

Heres whats wierd about what you just said.... Now, I dont know about what line of TA work that you are in, but if they are considering your training as experience, thats pretty much what a degree is..... extensive training...

Good luck on your education, and I promise it will more than pay for itself. Plus, you can look back on it as a great achievement, and so will others, even though some may not want to admit it.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

sweenyite said:


> agreed! any edge is an edge. My argument was that it just doesn't always make you the best candidate in every situation as someone on here seems to think. I will send my kids...if they want to go.


You are correct... it doesn't make you the best candidate....

BUT, at least it allows you to BE a candidate...

Thats the point.... you get the chance to come inside instead of being turned around at the door.


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## SpecklFinAddict (Dec 19, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> You are correct... it doesn't make you the best candidate....
> 
> BUT, at least it allows you to BE a candidate...
> 
> Thats the point.... you get the chance to come inside instead of being turned around at the door.


\

I respect your degree....So would you like to come pressure wash my driveway this weekend?


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Most of the time, listings that require a degree will interview a candidate with experience. They like to post that degree requirement to keep from being flooded with riff-raff resumes to go through. Apply for every one you can and sell yourself. That degree requirement is usually not set in stone for the right applicant.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

FlatoutFishin said:


> \
> 
> I respect your degree....So would you like to come pressure wash my driveway this weekend?


 Pick me! Pick me! I'm not too proud! Hard work is work just the same! lol


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

FlatoutFishin said:


> \
> 
> I respect your degree....So would you like to come pressure wash my driveway this weekend?


hahaha.... I sold out... no more pressure washing rigs... however, it was a great job and a great source of income....

well, the job wasn't so great.... I'm not a big fan of spiders and when spraying overhead stuff, you always end up with them crawling all over you.... Plus, it really sucks when its cold outside... And the hours sucked, especially when you were working at night in a bad part of town... but then again, I was armed with a weapon that could chop an attackers arm off at 5000+ PSI.

But, the going rate at the time was $0.08 per square foot. I had rotating surface cleaners, so I could clean a 30 inch wide strip at regular walking speed. So essentially, for every step I made about $0.25 when I was cleaning sidewalks and lots.

The thing that killed us was having to get insurance when dealing with larger clients to cover people who did the "fake slip and fall" deal.

But there wasn't much competition, money was good and it wasn't a difficult job with much skill involved. I often suggest it to people that are looking for a hobby-type job to make some extra side money. Once your rig is paid off, your only expense is gasoline and a few gaskets for maintenance (and insurance if your customers require it). Most jobs I was making $50+ an hour. A few were over $100/hour.


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## SpecklFinAddict (Dec 19, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> , money was good and it wasn't a difficult job with much skill involved.


You keep explaining it that way, and this refineries HR will be getting one of those "See Yeah" email after Friday(or payday).
All that and no nomex, with shorts and flip flops probably allowed...I'm thinking career change here!


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

FlatoutFishin said:


> You keep explaining it that way, and this refineries HR will be getting one of those "See Yeah" email after Friday(or payday).
> All that and no nomex, with shorts and flip flops probably allowed...I'm thinking career change here!


 Can't walk away from these bennys... pension AND 401k....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

FlatoutFishin said:


> You keep explaining it that way, and this refineries HR will be getting one of those "See Yeah" email after Friday(or payday).
> All that and no nomex, with shorts and flip flops probably allowed...I'm thinking career change here!


Power Washing+Flip Flops= Missing Toes

I have scars on my legs from where I grazed myself with the wand.... those machines mean business.

Even though I quit doing it a few years ago, I've been wondering how the economy would have effected the business. I think that when businesses and the public started cutting their expenditures, cleaned driveways would have been the first thing on the chopping blocked.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

justin you seem to blind to what most people are trying to het you to see and understand, including a large number of them your in your age bracket. I guess they are living in the past too. LOL You are exhibiting the syndrome that occurs in you males that have the "I am the only one with smartsitis" and as a result of it they also have the "I know all the answersitis". When you can learn that you can keep you ego in check at the proper times you will enjoy to the next level in your intellectual life, until then you will be one step behind the ones who have degrees from the school of hard knocks and even the real colleges..

You might want to open your eyes a little wider and look at how many jobs with major responsibilities don't require degrees. You might be surprised that the airline captain carrying you and 200 passengers and their souls may not have one. You were already told about Bill Gates and several other examples. There are many if you only open your eyes.

Again I challenge you to open your mind and learn something that college didn't teach you and reach another level in your passage through life.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Look at it this way... how many people in the USA have a college degree? I bet not all of them, so those with one have done something everyone can't or won't do. That says something and really can't be discounted... but experience goes hand in hand of course, knowledge of the job, in making a perfect employee.

Oh yeah, same with military background, that is a true sacrifice and very noble in itself. God bless the troops.


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## RogerB (Oct 11, 2005)

dang! take the weekend off to go watch Notre Dame whip WSU (college boys I believe) and come back to this. Not much left to say that hasn't been said already. Except - take a look at almost any career field and you'll see where experience can and is substituted for college. Heck, with a little money and effort you can take your experience and just about qualify for a college degree. Both are necessary in an ever-evolving world of competition today. But to argue that one MUST have a degree to be considered for a career position in his or her chosen field isn't necessarily true. 
and - your comment about a degree being "extensive training" in your field? yeah - right - it might be for you because you took it that way. It's not true of everyone who goes to college, not by a long shot. Before you comment that I'm one of those "experience only" living in the "stone age" I've got a considerable amount of college education in my records. Certifications in my field as well. The idea that a college education is somehow qualification by itself for experience (your comment not mine -see below)


justinsfa said:


> Heres whats wierd about what you just said.... Now, I dont know about what line of TA work that you are in, but if they are considering your training as experience, thats pretty much what a degree is..... extensive training...


is like saying a medical degree qualifies you to immediately begin practicing in your chosen medical field - we all know that's not true - nurse or doctor - once you graduate you go through considerable internship before being turned loose on your own. Wonder why that is?? could be because you need the "experience" as well??

I don't know you well enough to comment on any of your past experience but I do know this. Most successful people started with what they could get, even if it meant taking something below what they wanted to get initially. Hard work, proven reliability, proof that you can do what you got hired to do and a willingness and eagerness to take on more is generally meet with far more success long term than those who think a college degree means society "owes" them something.


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## Blexter (Sep 3, 2009)

As an employer of a small business (<40) for over 30 years - I will take an experienced 50 year old, non-degree'd over a 25 year old degreed for one simple reason....
the 50 year old will be more likely to show up, on time, every day, consistantly. While each person is judged on their own, I am disappointed to say that it seems to me, work ethic is generally related to age- both male and female.

Maybe it's because baby boomers (me) realize that to pay for our kids college education.... we have to work ... so they can take time from their work to blog on 2Cool


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

sweenyite said:


> The best approach is a mix of a degree AND experience.


Bingo. This is my view. You have to look at BOTH. We've got to keep a little perspective though and make sure we're comparing the same thing. From the various arguments, I don't believe we are, and I think BOTH sides have valid points, though are extreme.

This is the graph (yes, I'm an engineer, I like graphs) that convinced me to not pursue a masters degree. I'll bet for most jobs the same applies for degree vs. no degree. You can assume the Y axis is either salary, or value, or qualification. It's just a qualitative comparison anyways.

What's not shown here is that for SOME jobs, there IS a limit to how high you can get without a degree, so the red line will eventually EXCEED the blue line. Note this is NOT for ALL JOBS.


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## redduck (Jul 26, 2006)

I am in Human Resources and have been for 30 years. Mostly in the chemical industry but some in plastic industry and some in the specailty railcar cleaning business. I have a degree (it took me 13 years going to night school while working and trying to raise a family). I voluntarily served in the United States Army from 1961-1964 and was honorably discharged. 1961 was when they still had the draft for you younger folks. I have hired thousands of people from Plant Managers to janitors. I helped set up the process technician program at San Jacinto College to improve the caliber of applicants coming into the chemical industry. While some companies went to "must have this technician degree" I did not because I always wanted to hire the best person for the job. Every job is different and the best person may be the one without a degree. I said may be but not always. For example, I have never hired an Accountant that did not have a degree. I have hired Accounts Payable clerks that did not have a degree. Two different jobs. Can some Accounts Payable clerks move on to be Accountants. You bet but they are not in the majority. I have hired a boat load of Engineers and all had a degree. Some with experience and some fresh out of college. A lot of engineers move into Supervisor, Superientendent, and Managers positions as they gain experience. Have I seen individuals come up through the ranks to make Manager. Yes and they were darn good but it took them years to get where the degreed person got in only a few years. They were the exception rather than the rule. They usually fell short when it came to designing a unit modification or expansion. We had to assign a degreed engineer to help them. To say a person does not need a degree or does need a degree to get a job is silly. Those are too general of a statment. It does help get your foot in the door if you have a degree but that does not mean the degreed person will be the best employee. Experience in not everything either if they are not technically qualified. my 2.


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## bzrk180 (Jan 7, 2008)

I was a cop for ten years... Worked all levels of Law Enforcement...Was required to work as a team and even organize teams for various things to be done... I have hundreds and hundreds of hours in the courtrrom and extensive in service trainings with certificates that say I am "Certified" at different things....

I got out of that field and found myself looking at 8.00 an hour jobs... Granted, it is the Hill Country and there arent alot of high paying jobs around, but I could not believe that my experience wouldnt open at least a few doors.

I realized that the work force has a specific outline of rules to get to the pay I want to have and to get into something that I wanted to do for a living, I had to play by the rules....Go back to school!!

Then I get out with my BA and find that most of what I want is asking for a Masters... I decided to go back again, play by the rules and get that too...

Now here I am, with a Masters Degree, doing a very noble and worthy job...Not exactly making the money I want to, but I do have this sense of "security" having my Masters degree... It really opens up alot of doors.

Seems that experienced or not, degreed or not... you are at the mercy of the hiring force and they get to make the rules.


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## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

gitchesum said:


> In a control room atmosphere, in my 13 years in this environment, I have seen absolutely no difference between a degreed, or a non degreed new hire. Of course the guys that work their way up through the ranks have an advantage due to prior knowledge of the operations of some of the equipment, but the control room is a whole new animal and even some of those guys don't have what it takes to do the job.
> 
> The ability to think on your feet and the ability to make the proper decisions in a split second is what makes a good board operator.
> 
> That's not something you can learn in a classroom. Hands on is the only way to learn it.


In my 19 years experience in Corporate and Government IT I can personally tell you that degrees mean nothing in my field. Many certifications mean even less. Experience is everything.

As far as information technology goes a degree is for management targeted individuals and we all know what managers generally are....

Those who can't do, manage.


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## pulpfishin (Nov 27, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> Yes, my claim is 27 years of age.... and 12 years of full time work in the meantime earning a Bachelors in Business with a minor in Management and an additional minor in Science.





justinsfa said:


> I have worked in retail pharmacy and high end industrial equipment sales. My current field is dominated by people who have much more TIME experience, yet I have no problem keeping up, if not surpassing.


Sounds to me like you suffer from the typical 27 year old "I should be the CEO" because I'm better than the old guys BS.

It's called "paying your dues".

A Bachelor in Business is NOTHING but a piece of paper saying you "learned" the BASIC concepts of business from some libtard professor.

Minored in management, pfftt! Management of what industry? (Back to - experience being more important)




justinsfa said:


> THAT AIN'T HOW IT WORKS THESE DAYS...


You really don't know how it works "THESE DAYS" so you?!
A degree is NOT a prerequisite for the vast majority of jobs today.




justinsfa said:


> When a degree is a prerequisite for even an initial INTERVIEW, you are denied BEFORE you can even plead your case.


BS!
Experience in a given field or industry is paramount to a degree!
The CEO of my company has a degree in Liberal Arts. (We are an oilfield services company)
He just happens to have 25 years in the business.
His story is WAY more common than your analogy!




justinsfa said:


> And as far as the odd jobs, how can those not chalk up to experience? I tudored kids for years.... as a teacher does....


 
Your bouncing around claiming to be "experience", as you put it, shows me a lack of commitment.

I guess my newspaper route from age 10 to 14 qualifies me to run some division of Fed Ex distribution!?

I'm 44, and a Corporate Director that oversees 7 divisions of oilfield services product lines, I have 9 direct reports and 22 people in my department.

I could care less what degree a person has, "book smart" does not mean they can do the job!

Experience in a given field PROVES ones ability to perform!

Simple enough?


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## tailwalker35 (Jul 3, 2008)

justinsfa you should be proud of your degree. But I would bet there are more people in the work force who have no degree. Most of the people who get a degree don't even go into the field that they studied. You said you worked in the pharmacy business and also industrial equipment sales. Did you major in one and minor in the other? Experience is paramount to any job there is. I don't care if it is in sales or digging a ditch. Until you figure out all of the tricks of the trade you are'nt squat. School does not equal experience. I applaud you for working odd jobs like I think all kids should do. You gained the most important thing doing those jobs, it wasn't a degree but you learned how to work. A good work ethic is more important than all of the book learning a college can give. 
I am an employer and if it was you with zero experience and a degree or a high school dropout with 20 years experience, sorry but you wouldn't stand a chance. 
I am not dogging you but chill out and really read what you have wrote.


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## seattleman1969 (Jul 17, 2008)

JustinSFA, obtaining a degree is great, and I wish I had had the time/money to do that but here is one single piece of advice from me.....

Degree or no degree, check your ego at the door. 

I've seen many MANY degree bearers get smacked in the head by reality when they learn their theories taught in the classroom prove out otherwise in the real world. When you start a job listen to the guys that have been there longer than you and know the job despite their education level.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

The reason why I work is money.... if I didn't need money, I would fish everyday.

Here is your documented proof as to why a degree is more than a piece of paper on the wall... Whether its Business, Engineering, or Basketweaving.... Not only does this point out the monetary value, but it also points out the increasing number of college graduates in today's society.

*Just in case you still had some doubts, the U.S. Census Bureau has released data proving the substantial value of a college education in the United States. Workers 18 and over sporting bachelors degrees earn an average of $51,206 a year, while those with a high school diploma earn $27,915. But wait, there's more. Workers with an advanced degree make an average of $74,602, and those without a high school diploma average $18,734. *
*According to a new census report titled Educational Attainment in the United States: 2004, **85 percent of those age 25 or older reported they had completed at least high school** and 28 percent had attained at least a bachelor's degree - both record highs.*

Source: http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/collegepays.htm

Now take into account that 2/3 of highschool kids are planning on attending college upon graduation, and you will see that the majority of the workforce will have a college degree in a matter of a few years.

I urge you all to read the following article concerning secondary education. Even the part about Bill Gates....

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0718/p01s04-ussc.html


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

seattleman1969 said:


> JustinSFA, obtaining a degree is great, and I wish I had had the time/money to do that but here is one single piece of advice from me.....
> 
> Degree or no degree, check your ego at the door.
> 
> I've seen many MANY degree bearers get smacked in the head by reality when they learn their theories taught in the classroom prove out otherwise in the real world. When you start a job listen to the guys that have been there longer than you and know the job despite their education level.


I'm not claiming that a person without a degree is a dumbasss or should be my subordinate.... You guys are twisting everything around and getting all worked up because someone is giving you upfront, researched information and its not what you believe in.... I too could sit here and gripe about checking YOUR ego's at the door. Your age does not mean you are God Almighty and have infinite wisdom over someone who has not been on this earth as long.

It doesn't bother me if you would rather have experience over a degree. That is your prerogative.

I am simply stating that a bachelor's degree in today's job market will give you an edge over your competition. Whether you need it or not, it gets you in the door and gets you a second look.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Times up! Time for this thread to die...in three, two, one.....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

sweenyite said:


> Times up! Time for this thread to die...in three, two, one.....


You would know that it would happen when the documented facts were presented...

But so be it....

Toss it into the abyss.....


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

No, it's just that this thread has become a dog chasing it's tail...and not getting anywhere. Unsubscribing....later! Catch ya on another thread about something I'm not tired of discussing.:slimer:


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

sweenyite said:


> No, it's just that this thread has become a dog chasing it's tail...and not getting anywhere. Unsubscribing....later! Catch ya on another thread about something I'm not tired of discussing.:slimer:


Oh, I thought you were a moderator or something and had decided to close the thread.

Enjoy your unsubscription.... See you in the next argument that takes up too much of my time and energy to prove a point that really doesn't matter anyway.... haha


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## whistlingdixie (Jul 28, 2008)

A college degree now a days is equal to a High School degree 25 years ago. It is almost impossible for a young man/woman to get a good paying job in the work force with out some type of degree. It was not like that 25 years ago and now many employers want to hire someone they know has drive and determination. A four year degree may not mean a lot to someone but it shows an employer you have commitment and drive and the willingness and capability to learn something new.


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## Sea Aggie (Jul 18, 2005)

Pick up a copy of "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell.

One thing the author uses is called the "10,000 hour rule". He spends a nice portion of the book explaining why it takes 10,000 hours of practice to be successful in whatever it is you want to do. 

Bill Gates is a great example of what you can do when you have unlimited access to a super-computer when everyone else in the world was restricted to a few hours a week at the very most. By the time Gates was 18 yrs old, he had more "time" coding than just about anyone else on the planet... He also uses The Beatles time spent working in Hamburg, Germany, playing 8-10 hrs a day, 6 days a week, before hitting the big time. They were polished and practiced at an age when others were just getting started.

I have a degree, but most of what I know about my job I learned after my "formal education." On the other hand, many of the people I work with, work for and compete against are not only degreed, but classmates of mine.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> See you in the next argument that takes up too much of my time and energy *to prove a point that really doesn't matter anyway*.... haha


 By golly you are starting to realize how poor your argument is, in your own words.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Texas T said:


> By golly you are starting to realize how poor your argument is, in your own words.


No, "by golly," I am beginning to realize how poor my audience is. Big difference.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

I quote your words and you blame the audience. Wrong answer and I thought there was hope for you. I was mistaken this time.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

LOL!!! Whats that old sayin'... oh yeah....

*"Nothin' more stupid that a young buck or smarter than an old one..."*

When your in a hole, for God's sake, put the shovel down and stop diggin'.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Well this is the new saying,

"Age mellows some people; others it makes rotten." 

I pity you.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Texas T said:


> I quote your words and you blame the audience. Wrong answer and I thought there was hope for you. I was mistaken this time.


1) you did not quote my words

2) your opinion does not matter to me to be honest. None of you have shown any evidence to prove your point.... Just, the whole "I have been alive longer, so that automatically makes me right." Pretty skimpy answer.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

It's an employer's world 11-03-2009 06:16 PMw_r_ranch You screwed up & blame others... Bad move.







It's an employer's world 11-03-2009 06:06 PMTexas T some day you will figure it out







It's an employer's world 11-03-2009 03:49 PM some people just dont get it







It's an employer's world 11-03-2009 03:40 PM I'm right there with ya...







It's an employer's world 11-02-2009 11:41 PM







It's an employer's world 11-02-2009 06:26 PM he's not going to get it







It's an employer's world 11-02-2009 09:32 AM BOOM!

Bubble Buster...


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## RogerB (Oct 11, 2005)

you poor, pathetic, sad little simpleton. Business owners, heads of human resource departments, succesfull members of this forum have tried (apparently in vain) to explain the "reality" of this world to you and you chose instead to insult, slam, degrade and belittle those who have learned, and prospered through hard work, initiative, self-improvement and plain grit. It's readily apparent that your inflated opinion of your own importance will never allow for an understanding of what has been said. I actually feel sorry for you. You stoop to posting private messages to inflate your own self-worth. How pathetic. 
I'm done wasting time listening to someone who's a legend only unto themselves


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## txjustin (Jun 3, 2009)

In todays world if you want to enter into a white collar job a degree is essential. There are exceptions to everything though.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

RogerB said:


> you poor, pathetic, sad little simpleton. Business owners, heads of human resource departments, succesfull members of this forum have tried (apparently in vain) to explain the "reality" of this world to you and you chose instead to insult, slam, degrade and belittle those who have learned, and prospered through hard work, initiative, self-improvement and plain grit. It's readily apparent that your inflated opinion of your own importance will never allow for an understanding of what has been said. I actually feel sorry for you. You stoop to posting private messages to inflate your own self-worth. How pathetic.
> I'm done wasting time listening to someone who's a legend only unto themselves


Ah, man! How are you going to sleep tonight knowing that I posted a copy and paste of my greenie/reddie board??

I really would like an honest count from you guys.... How many of you have told your children that they should not attend college because it is not necessary and will not better their chances in the working world....

Seriously, I want to know....

WR Ranch?

RogerB?

Texas T?

Everybody who is discussing in this thread, speak up.

And don't answer with that, oh, well its their decision...

And if you haven't had to encounter that issue yet, would you really tell your kid that??

Thats the proof in the pudding....

I will put all the supporting documents and research to rest.... (even though I have yet to see any of you post some sort of documented reasoning to your beliefs)...

Here, I will make it easier for you all and set the scenario.... You have the funds, you have the time....

Your child walks up to you and says, "Dad, should I go to college?"

Insert your answer here.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> 1) you did not quote my words
> 
> 2) your opinion does not matter to me to be honest. None of you have shown any evidence to prove your point.... Just, the whole "I have been alive longer, so that automatically makes me right." Pretty skimpy answer.


 1) Funny when I hit the quote button on your post made at 7:19 I would say I am "quoting" your words.
2) That is your problem you need to learn to listen to the opinions of others even when they disagree with yours, that way you are more informed and act from an educated position rather then the egotistical, selfcentered, Nd ignorant position that you are eat up with.
3) Thank you for the reddie in return but I bet you will reap more of them then you sow.
4) I hope that you love your self cuz I doubt many others will after they see the real you come.
5) Sorry but I tried to get through to you and failed. Is it because I'm not a college prof or you just know it all?

I will leave with something to let you figure out. DILLIGAF about you?


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

*I'm in Pearland too Texas T...I'll buy you a cold beer to find out what DILLIGAF means...reading the coorespondence on this thread reminds me of trying to have a conversation with my ex-wife...she had the same closed minded attitude your new friend has...*


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

DILLIGAF = Do I look like I give a ****


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

"Enjoy your unsubscription.... See you in the next argument that takes up too much of my time and energy to prove a point that really doesn't matter anyway.... haha"

That were my EXACT words. EXACT WORDS, as in a QUOTE.

Nowhere in that QUOTE does it point out that my argument is poor. 

Instead, the QUOTE refers to the fact that I am beating a dead horse and it really doesn't matter whether the point is made or not. You aren't going to go get your degree and I'm not going to throw mine away. Neither of us are even in the job market.

The reason why your opinion doesn't matter is because you have nothing to back it up with. You present no valid documentation or reasoning... You just keep saying that you are right because you say you are. That is worth about 3 grains of sand to me. 

For example, I hear people saying all the time how crapppy of a president BO is, yet very few can explain WHY they think he is crapppy... Ya, Im not a big fan either, but Im not going to sit there and voice my opinion when I have no reasoning behind it. The opinion has no basis.


Here's some homework for you.... Find some sort of documentation, study, research... SOMETHING that supports your thoughts. 

Im not here to roll over on my back and take your word for it just because you are older than me, and I would hope you would never do the same.... I have my doubts though

Thanks for the acronym by the way. Deciphering your futile attempt at redemption is at the bottom of my list....

At least the others have points that can be argued and cause me to at least take into consideration what they are saying.... 

But you are just talking to hear yourself....


----------



## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

sweenyite said:


> DILLIGAF = Do I look like I give a ****


*This was another excuse to have to go to the Pearland Chilis & have a couple of Shiners on tap...but thanks for the info...*


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Blk Jck 224 said:


> *I'm in Pearland too Texas T...I'll buy you a cold beer to find out what DILLIGAF means...reading the coorespondence on this thread reminds me of trying to have a conversation with my ex-wife...she had the same closed minded attitude your new friend has...*


 LOL I would say Sweenyite gave you a good clue. Thanks for the offer of a cold beer.

Also thanks for the greenies that made up for my 1st ever reddie. I will wear it proudly. LOL


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Blk Jck 224 said:


> *This was another excuse to have to go to the Pearland Chilis & have a couple of Shiners on tap...but thanks for the info...*


 Dang we even ate from there tonight.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Blk Jck 224 said:


> *This was another excuse to have to go to the Pearland Chilis & have a couple of Shiners on tap...but thanks for the info...*


You don't need an excuse! :rotfl:


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Texas T said:


> LOL I would say Sweenyite gave you a good clue. Thanks for the offer of a cold beer.
> 
> Also thanks for the greenies that made up for my 1st ever reddie. I will wear it proudly. LOL


Have another green on me.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

sweenyite said:


> Have another green on me.


 Thank you for the gift. LOL


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

sweenyite said:


> You don't need an excuse! :rotfl:


*Your right...I don't need one...although I could honestly provide one to my darling bride..." Honey I need to meet a fellow 2 cooler to get briefed on some sensitive information that we cannot discuss online"...:brew:*


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Blk Jck 224 said:


> *Your right...I don't need one...although I could honestly provide one to my darling bride..." Honey I need to meet a fellow 2 cooler to get briefed on some sensitive information that we cannot discuss online"...:brew:*


Top Secret.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Texasfisherman57 said:


> sad3smWith thousands of people out of work, employers have the luxury of asking for just about any kind requirement for employment. Have any of you out there been looking for work, like me? Employers are asking for a Bachelors Degree for just about any job now. I saw ads for a drywall estimator and a paint estimator that were asking for BA's. I could almost believe that those ads could ask for an Associates Degree, but a BA? Give me a break....
> 
> Whatever happened to asking for years of related experience???


Just thought I would remind everybody about the original post where he clearly states that he is looking for a job and all the employers he is running across are requiring a bachelor's degree....

Thats a real life observation by someone who is looking for a job....

I have a feeling that you guys just haven't looked for a job in a while....


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

justinsfa said:


> Just thought I would remind everybody about the original post where he clearly states that he is looking for a job and all the employers he is running across are requiring a bachelor's degree....
> 
> Thats a real life observation by someone who is looking for a job....
> 
> I have a feeling that you guys just haven't looked for a job in a while....


I don't look for a job...jobs look for me!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

sweenyite said:


> I don't look for a job...jobs look for me!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


hahahahaha.... I think the only field that happens in is prostitution.... haha


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

justinsfa said:


> hahahahaha.... I think the only field that happens in is prostitution.... haha


You caught on quick! :slimer:
Gigolo...but I went broke the first day. Couldn't give it away for free.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

sweenyite said:


> You caught on quick! :slimer:
> Gigolo...but I went broke the first day. Couldn't give it away for free.


None of us can give it away..... it usually costs a minimum of 2 drinks to find a buyer... haha


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> Just thought I would remind everybody about the original post where he clearly states that he is looking for a job and all the employers he is running across are requiring a bachelor's degree....
> 
> Thats a real life observation by someone who is looking for a job....
> 
> *I have a feeling that you guys just haven't looked for a job in a while....*


I haven't looked for a job since 1985 ( you were what 3 years old at that time, working part time then I bet.). I have a HS diploma too. I think I got it from a mailorder house if I remember right. They didn't require a Degree of any kind.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Watch out Bobby or he will drop a reddie on you too. LOL


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

Texas T said:


> Watch out Bobby or he will drop a reddie on you too. LOL


Whats a reddy? LOL I shoot back too.


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## Catfishy (Jul 2, 2009)

Can you guys imagine having to work with/for justinsfa?
I think the man needs to get a life. He's spent way too much time arguing with fellow 2coolers. 
Maybe he is just trying to increase his post count?


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Watch out Bobby or he will drop a reddie on you too. LOL


Coming from the one who initiated the reddie distribution....

Since you like acronyms...

HDYLTS? hahaha


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Catfishy said:


> Can you guys imagine having to work with/for justinsfa?
> I think the man needs to get a life. He's spent way too much time arguing with fellow 2coolers.
> Maybe he is just trying to increase his post count?


Dang, you busted me. Thats exactly what I was trying to do.

Watch yourself there Cat-boy, you might just be answering to me one day


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Catfishy said:


> Can you guys imagine having to work with/for justinsfa?
> I think the man needs to get a life. He's spent way too much time arguing with fellow 2coolers.
> Maybe he is just trying to increase his post count?


 LOL I think you hit the nail on the head.


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## Bayscout22 (Aug 9, 2007)

Catfishy said:


> tu·tor
> Function: noun
> a person charged with the instruction and guidance of another: as a : a private teacher b : a teacher in a British university who gives individual instruction to undergraduates
> 
> ...


That was killing me too. Pretty ironic, given the point he is trying to make.

Also funny that he misspelled "clientel" (clientele) when talking about his illustrious career, post the power washing years. He also misused "dawns" (dons) when talking about his graduation gear.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

justinsfa said:


> I really would like an honest count from you guys.... How many of you have told your children that they should not attend college because it is not necessary and will not better their chances in the working world....
> 
> Seriously, I want to know....
> 
> ...


With an answer for every other post, this one sure seems to be getting skipped, so I will challenge you all again....

Lets hear it!


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Oh well Time for my enema to get rid a little pain in the *** and then to to bed.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Oh well Time for my enema to get rid a little pain in the *** and then to to bed.


Might want to pull your head out of there before you try to use that enema... could get messy.


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> Might want to pull your head out of there before you try to use that enema... could get messy.


Dayum.....Does SFA offer classes on chat board etiquette while talking with your elders?

lmao!

Remember some of the old codgers just might own the company you might wanna work at one day. Sometimes your first impression sticks!


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Melon said:


> Dayum.....Does SFA offer classes on chat board etiquette while talking with your elders?
> 
> lmao!
> 
> Remember some of the old codgers just might own the company you might wanna work at one day. Sometimes your first impression sticks!


There is no etiquette for talking to elders. There is, however, etiquette for talking to people. Period.

Should you choose to have no etiquette for me, please be prepared to recieve the same treatment in return.... regardless of age. I believe theres a "rule of gold" that pertains to that...

One does not get a free pass just because he/she has been alive longer. You dish it out, man up and be prepared to take it right back, whether you are 16 or 60. Im sure you all feel the same way as you have obviously expressed, yet I am chastized for sticking to my guns and providing concrete evidence to support my posts?

And yet we still sit here awaiting someone to post any research or statistics to contradict mine.

In most cases, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but the views expressed earlier on college degrees were so outrageous, opinionated, dated and lacking any solid research, that it could not be overlooked.

If you read back to the original postings, you will clearly see that I did not generalize any folks by age.... Mr. Ranch began the "old fart" and "youngster" talk and stereotyping. As a matter of fact, I clearly wrote that his age had nothing to do with his mindset. People are responsible for that individually. Their time on earth does not determine it.

I just followed his lead... Isn't that what us youngsters are supposed to do? Make your mind up folks!

Don't go get your degree... its none of my business.... its your life and your decision and it results in less competition in my career field.... but don't forget, that there are people on this board looking to be pointed in the right direction, and for someone to sit there and put down a college education and claim it as a waste of time and money is ludacris and a horrible way to influence the youth of tomorrow.

(and as an aside, I type 100+ words per minute, so I really haven't spent that much time on this thread. I noticed alot of you were very concerned with my productivity).


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## Catfishy (Jul 2, 2009)

Some people always have to have the last word. It's a control thing born out of insecurity.

Apparently justinsfa is one of them. 

Maybe if we stop replying he will just shut up.


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## spotsndots (May 20, 2005)

If you think a college degree is a must in today's world I would suggest to go read "Rich Dad....Poor Dad" and then get back with us.


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> *There is no etiquette for talking to elders. There is, however, etiquette for talking to people. Period.*
> 
> Should you choose to have no etiquette for me, please be prepared to recieve the same treatment in return.... regardless of age. I believe theres a "rule of gold" that pertains to that...
> 
> ...


I bet your daddy taught you that. No respect for your elders.:rotfl: That deserves a red from me.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Why do I suspect that this boy, besides being rather outspoken and processing a 'know-it-all' attitude is not quite as successful as he portrays himself to be??? Other than a 2 year old Tundra (to carry his toys around in), I wonder if he owns a house yet, after all he is "all about money"??? Doubt that... tax records...

Or could it be that he still lives with mommy & daddy (although he is a lil' old to still be in the nest)??? Very well could be the reason he got 'spun up' in the place, especially after he read #27. Could explain it.... 

Oh well, someone give me a call if you see him fall to earth. He will eventually...


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## tailwalker35 (Jul 3, 2008)

justinsfa said:


> There is no etiquette for talking to elders. There is, however, etiquette for talking to people. Period.
> 
> Should you choose to have no etiquette for me, please be prepared to recieve the same treatment in return.... regardless of age. I believe theres a "rule of gold" that pertains to that...
> 
> ...


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## whistlingdixie (Jul 28, 2008)

w_r_ranch said:


> Why do I suspect that this boy, besides being rather outspoken and processing a 'know-it-all' attitude is not quite as successful as he portrays himself to be??? Other than a 2 year old Tundra (to carry his toys around in), I wonder if he owns a house yet, after all he is "all about money"??? Doubt that... tax records...
> 
> Or could it be that he still lives with mommy & daddy (although he is a lil' old to still be in the nest)??? Very well could be the reason he got 'spun up' in the place, especially after he read #27. Could explain it....
> 
> Oh well, someone give me a call if you see him fall to earth. He will eventually...


Some things you do have to agree with the boy about. Imagine two 22 years olds going out for the same job. One has a college degree and the other does not. Who do you think will get the job? I have been in the marine business for a little over two years. Because I went to college and learned a lot about computers and programming, advertising, finance and general management skills I leaped frog people who have been in this business for decades. Today this is more common then 20 years ago. Look at the military; You can take a fresh 2nd lt and put him in charge of a platoon and have a staff sgt who has been in the military for 5 years. That has been going on for years. Now a good 2nd Lt would learn from his staff sgt and others but still possess the leadership he was taught.


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## Reel Aggies (Nov 30, 2007)

Why has no one said if they would encourage their kids to go to college or not? Maybe it should be made a poll? I am really curious.


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

*Any education you attain can only be beneficial in any career. I was required to have at minimum an associates degree as I am a RN & carry a state license. 16 years later as I move into the business side of the hospital, my employer is sending me back to school to finish my BS & possibly my MBA after that. I can guarantee you that I am much more valuable to my facillity having started at the bottom & seeing how every level works on my up to where I am now. Putting an advanced education on top of working knowledge of an organization has really helped me to put it all together. How could someone coming out of school in their early 20's and entering an organization beleive that they know more about operations that someone that has worked there for 20-30 years. I guess I can sort of understand the attitude as I thought I knew everything at that age too. Experience has shown me that if I had kept my mouth shut & paid attention a little more to those who actually knew what was going on, It wouldn't have taken me this long to get this far. *


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## Reel Aggies (Nov 30, 2007)

I do not think that is the argument. I think (I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong) is two people just joining the workforce, one with a degree and one without, who would get picked. I agree with Black jack in that experience and adding a degree later ties everything together. You learn in school why you do the things you do, not just how to do them. I wish I had listened more in acct 105 and econ 101 now that I am a business owner. I remember that we talked about the same issues I am dealing with now, just wish I had a real-life situation to tie it to. My ag-eco buddies really made out. They had been farming with their dads their whole life and every class they took at TAMU tied in to things they had done their whole life, but they really did not know why. Once they took commodities classes, it really allowed their farming to come into the 21st century and take advantage or technology that their dads had no idea how to use. Not to say their dad's weren't good farmers, just allowed them to take it to another level.


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## RogerB (Oct 11, 2005)

whistlingdixie said:


> You can take a fresh 2nd lt and put him in charge of a platoon and have a staff sgt who has been in the military for 5 years. That has been going on for years. Now a good 2nd Lt would learn from his staff sgt and others but still possess the leadership he was taught.


that may happen in todays military but it didn't in my time - I'll never forget the look on that brand new 2lt's face when the battalion commander told him "you're assigned to this sergeant - you don't eat, sleep, **** or c*** unless he tells you to. You don't issue an order, directive or advice without clearing it through him first. You do that and you "might" make it to 1lt"

and thanks for the reddie justinsfa - first one is always a special treasure - ha! :dance:

and no - I'm not going to waste my time responding to your silly little challenge post - not necessary - my two college educated children who have multiple years experience in their jobs (and got those because of experience) don't need to be justified to you.




catfishy said:


> Some people always have to have the last word. It's a control thing born out of insecurity.
> 
> Apparently justinsfa is one of them.
> 
> Maybe if we stop replying he will just shut up.


sounds like a winner to me -


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

No one is arguing that a degree will help you get in the door for an interview TODAY... certainly I didn't.

Whistling pixie brought up a good point earlier:



whistlingdixie said:


> A college degree now a days is equal to a High School degree 25 years ago.


That is also one of the reasons entry-level positions require a degree today. (I've seen young people that can barely function and cannot even do math involving fractions). I have also seen positions for receptionists that require a degree... now think about that, a degree to say " Good morning, thank you for calling ACME WIDGET. How may I direct you call?" Give me a break!!!

The fact remains, that a newly minted degree has no relevant experience/knowledge, only potential. Having said that, a fresh degree is fine as long as the "new hire" accepts that fact that he/she is a trainee and need to prove that they are capable of handling certain assigned tasks before they are entrusted with more complex/challenging opportunities.

In our company, if they present a 'know-it-all' attitude early on, they are basically gone. Neither the company, nor myself will risk the loss or damage to a multi-million dollar piece of equipment or our corporate reputation. I personally hire experienced people only (both engineers and technicians), many of them vets for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

Life is to short to tolerate people that can't or won't do what they are trained & paid to do.


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## RogerB (Oct 11, 2005)

"you must spread some around before giving to that old fart w_r again" dang! I owe you another green - what's that now? 2,000??


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

RogerB said:


> "you must spread some around before giving to that old fart w_r again" dang! I owe you another green - what's that now? 2,000??


I bought this round...:brew2:


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## Blue Water Breaux (Feb 6, 2008)

Justin,

Since you are in the oil/gas sector, I assume you're familiar with Rigzone. I just did a Basic Search and found over 20 jobs alone that wanted Experience over a Degree. Just saying. Only took me 5 mins to find those. Take a look. 

*Disclaimer- I agree that a degree is great, a degree with experience is better, and experience without a degree can make one successful, esp with excellent communication/leadership skills. In fact, the aforementioned jobs I saw simply required a HS diploma or GED...I guarantee you there are a select few of those individuals who possess exceptional communication skills, a smile on the face and willingness to learn, conquer and ask for more responsibility will be immensely successful...without a college degree. May take him longer, may not.


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## RogerB (Oct 11, 2005)

sweenyite said:


> I bought this round...:brew2:


 thank you sir.:cheers:


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## whistlingdixie (Jul 28, 2008)

w_r_ranch said:


> No one is arguing that a degree will help you get in the door for an interview TODAY... certainly I didn't.
> 
> Whistling pixie brought up a good point earlier:
> 
> ...


It takes time to build experience and just like those engineers you hire they had to aquire a degree somewhere before they gained experience. Most colleges will put you out in the workforce before you graduate to build experience and I think anyone in college that does not do any type of internship our outside job pertaining to their interested field is stupid. The amount of kids going to college now is going to eventually force everyone to go to college and honestly I can already see where a masters degree has replaced the bachelors degree. My dad never went to college and he built his way up working for the government. They would send him to school then promote him. He retired as a Nuclear inspector and the amount of school and training he has he should be a doctor in his field. My mother is a Pediatric Cardiologist and is one of the first doctors to ever succesful hook up a an mechanical heart to an infant. She is still going to school and she is in her 50's. Some jobs require an education especially real technical things but other things require more experience and field knowledge which can not be taught behind a desk.


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## Bayscout22 (Aug 9, 2007)

Some people have a natural ability to PIZZ everybody off even when they are making a pretty good point. For knuckleheads like that, no amount of education will ever make them successful.

Justin,

If you haven't learned, in your twenty-seven years, that some folks in our society HAVE INDEED earned the right to be treated with a little more respect, I would start asking for your parent's money back on that fine college degree of yours. You have a long way to go.

Good luck!


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## jeff.w (Jan 22, 2006)

After reading through this thread, I had to give justin a red. Simply because of his attitude. Reminds me of a snobby *** fresh outta college, know it all kid that our department hired recently. Didn't know his behind from a hole in the ground when it came to being a Reliability Engineer, but proudly displayed his degree on his office wall. Then, he'd come to me or other technicians for advice on about every scenario he was faced with, like a lost puppy, lol.


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## Blue Water Breaux (Feb 6, 2008)

To add to what I've already stated:

Obtaining a job, especially with a contact within the company or has a direct influence on the company makes a dang big difference, esp if they're willing to vouge for you. Its not what you know, Its WHO you know...:smile:


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## txjustin (Jun 3, 2009)

Blue Water Breaux said:


> Justin,
> 
> Since you are in the oil/gas sector, I assume you're familiar with Rigzone. I just did a Basic Search and found over 20 jobs alone that wanted Experience over a Degree. Just saying. Only took me 5 mins to find those. Take a look.
> 
> *Disclaimer- I agree that a degree is great, a degree with experience is better, and experience without a degree can make one successful, esp with excellent communication/leadership skills. In fact, the aforementioned jobs I saw simply required a HS diploma or GED...I guarantee you there are a select few of those individuals who possess exceptional communication skills, a smile on the face and willingness to learn, conquer and ask for more responsibility will be immensely successful...without a college degree. May take him longer, may not.


I'd like you to point out what jobs those are. I bet most are blue collar jobs. By the way, I'm not being argumentative.


----------



## Texasfisherman57 (Mar 2, 2008)

I have been looking for a new job for about a month now. If the company I have been working at for 12-years wasn't moving, I wouldn't be looking. 

It is absolutely the worst time of year to be looking for a job. I would never quit a job Oct.-Dec. without having another one to go to. So many companies stand pat with hiring until after the 1st of the year. Then to go along with that, this is probably the worst economic climate the USA has had since the Great Depression. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

In my talks with prospective employers and head-hunters, one thing has become crystal clear. Many employers just want it all. Bachelors Degree, years and years of experience in their specialized field, customer contacts, spotless background, expertise in the software THEY use, etc, etc.

If you are just starting out in the real world, get the most education you can. Then maybe someone will hire you at entry level where you can gain experience. Guys like me will have to find openings where experience will get our foot in the door.


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## redduck (Jul 26, 2006)

what kind of work are you looking for TEX


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

txjustin said:


> I'd like you to point out what jobs those are. I bet most are blue collar jobs. By the way, I'm not being argumentative.


Try doing a Google search on 'Rigzone jobs'. :headknock What's difference does it make if a job is 'blue color'? Are you afraid of getting dirty (it is the oil/gas industry)???

The idea is to get hired, get experience and work your way up the ladder. Most vice presidents started in the field or offshore. You don't start at the top. Besides, we get 'dirty' in the office & computer rooms around here...

I'm not being argumentative either.


----------



## txjustin (Jun 3, 2009)

w_r_ranch said:


> Try doing a Google search on 'Rigzone jobs'. :headknock What's difference does it make if a job is 'blue color'? Are you afraid of getting dirty (it is the oil/gas industry)???
> 
> The idea is to get hired, get experience and work your way up the ladder. Most vice presidents started in the field or offshore. You don't start at the top. Besides, we get 'dirty' in the office & computer rooms around here...
> 
> I'm not being argumentative either.


I know what rigzone is. Has nothing to do with getting my hands dirty. I was making a point. Point is, most college graduates go to school to not have to get their hands dirty, work tons of overtime, and labor intensive jobs. It has nothing to do with being lazy or getting their hands dirty. To start out with these type of jobs in this day and age a college degree is essential. I've worked labor intensive dirty jobs and I went to college to not have to do that anymore. To each his own. I have respect for anybody no matter their job type/description.


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## Blue Water Breaux (Feb 6, 2008)

txjustin said:


> I'd like you to point out what jobs those are. I bet most are blue collar jobs. By the way, I'm not being argumentative.


Manager of Sales/Marketing- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72746

Project Controls Manager- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72851

Assembler II- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72647

Lead Sub-sea Operator- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72551

Project Quality Lead- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=71568

HSE Specialist- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=71667

Chief Mate- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72492

Petroleum Engineering Tech- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72491

Hydraulic Supervisor- Deepwater Assets- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=71403

Well Integrity Data Analyst- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=70411

Well Integrity Management QA Job- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=71753

Production Operator B- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72749

SEMP Leader- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=71670

Electro Tech Engineer- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=71715

Operations and Maintenance Technician- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=60102

Production Technician- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72758

DCS Specialist- http://rigzone.com/jobs/search_job_results.asp?p=6

There's a few to start with Justin. Some want HS diploma, others want a technical/vocal cert.

There are plenty more, I assure, Im tired of wasting my time looking on Rigzone to prove you wrong. Alas, they may be blue collar jobs, but if one is able to master their skill at the "blue collar job" they will get paid better and have a higher chance of moving to a "white collar job" after they have "experience." Capeesh?

Oh, and a lot of these jobs aren't in the "older" sector as you said, they are still hiring with no degree, however, they want experience.


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## txjustin (Jun 3, 2009)

Blue Water Breaux said:


> Project Controls Manager- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72851
> 
> Assembler II- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72647
> 
> ...


Lol. May have a higher chance huh? Well, you think what you like, a person with a 4 year degree will most likely start with a white collar job and not the other way around. You proved my point, blue collar jobs. Not that there is anything wrong with that as I have worked many. The point is, in 5-10 years when all the baby boomers retire, a degree or technical cert will be the only thing that will get you in the door at all. Justinsfa already post FACTS on salaries of high school grads versus 4 year degrees versus advanced degrees. Those FACTS don't lie my friend.

No need to make this some sort of argument or some way to prove yourself. I really don't care if you have a degree or not. Like I said, to each his own.


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## Texasfisherman57 (Mar 2, 2008)

redduck said:


> what kind of work are you looking for TEX


PM sent.


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## whistlingdixie (Jul 28, 2008)

Blue Water Breaux said:


> Manager of Sales/Marketing- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72746
> 
> Project Controls Manager- http://rigzone.com/jobs/job_posting.asp?p_id=72851
> 
> ...


Im still waiting for a job that pays me good money to play golf in my office and answer conference calls all day. Oh and I want a hot secretary that wears mini skirts and black pumps. i think i need to stop watching tv:headknock


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## txjustin (Jun 3, 2009)

whistlingdixie said:


> Im still waiting for a job that pays me good money to play golf in my office and answer conference calls all day. Oh and I want a hot secretary that wears mini skirts and black pumps. i think i need to stop watching tv:headknock


When you find it let me know how much experience and/or what degrees or certs it takes to get it. I'm all in for that! :cop:


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## Blue Water Breaux (Feb 6, 2008)

txjustin said:


> Lol. May have a higher chance huh? Well, you think what you like, a person with a 4 year degree will most likely start with a white collar job and not the other way around. You proved my point, blue collar jobs. Not that there is anything wrong with that as I have worked many. The point is, in 5-10 years when all the baby boomers retire, a degree or technical cert will be the only thing that will get you in the door at all. Justinsfa already post FACTS on salaries of high school grads versus 4 year degrees versus advanced degrees. Those FACTS don't lie my friend.
> 
> No need to make this some sort of argument or some way to prove yourself. I really don't care if you have a degree or not. Like I said, to each his own.


You still dont get it. A company is going to keep someone around that THEY have molded to THEIR specs and see that their employee is capable of much more than they started out as. How the hell do you think landmen, where there is no degree involved, start their own successful OIL companies. There are 2 in Houston that I know on a personal basis. you're right, the facts dont lie, but there are always going to be people who are the exception. The oil and gas industry is enormous and therefore, way more "exception" type people are there to fill in the void. Guess Bill Gates was part of that equation, along with several other immensely successful non-degreed entrepreneurs. You can argue til you are blue in the face, which is what you're doing, but you're wrong. A lot of companies are going to inside promotions and pushing hard for inter-company succession. Many of the most successful companies like Devon do this, Cameron is heading that way as we speak...why? bc they trust what they have invested in, whether it be blue collar, white collar (SALES LIKE I MENTIONED AND POINTED OUT TO YOU) and will give them the opportunity to advance within the work force.

Go back to work. I did prove you wrong, some were blue collar some were white collar. Big deal, you're still wrong in your affirmation of degree v experience. It goes both ways, not just well you have a degree so you're better.


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## txjustin (Jun 3, 2009)

Blue Water Breaux said:


> You still dont get it. A company is going to keep someone around that THEY have molded to THEIR specs and see that their employee is capable of much more than they started out as. How the hell do you think landmen, where there is no degree involved, start their own successful OIL companies. There are 2 in Houston that I know on a personal basis. you're right, the facts dont lie, *but there are always going to be people who are the exception*. The oil and gas industry is enormous and therefore, way more "exception" type people are there to fill in the void. Guess Bill Gates was part of that equation, along with several other immensely successful non-degreed entrepreneurs. You can argue til you are blue in the face, which is what you're doing, but you're wrong. A lot of companies are going to inside promotions and pushing hard for inter-company succession. Many of the most successful companies like Devon do this, Cameron is heading that way as we speak...why? bc they trust what they have invested in, whether it be blue collar, white collar (SALES LIKE I MENTIONED AND POINTED OUT TO YOU) and will give them the opportunity to advance within the work force.
> 
> Go back to work. I did prove you wrong, some were blue collar some were white collar. Big deal, you're still wrong in your affirmation of degree v experience. It goes both ways, not just well you have a degree so you're better.


I agree with the bolded part. I never said anything about degree versus experience. You have me confused with justinsfa. I am working. How hard is it to comprehend the FACT posted by justinsfa that degree workers, ON AVERAGE, make more than non degreed workers?


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

OK did justinsfa have an operation and turn into txjustin or does he have a prohibited burn handle to spread his reddies around?????? It still looks the same and stinks the same so is it the same????

Is it live or memorex?????:rotfl:


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## txjustin (Jun 3, 2009)

Texas T said:


> OK did justinsfa have an operation and turn into txjustin or does he have a prohibited burn handle to spread his reddies around?????? It still looks the same and stinks the same so is it the same????
> 
> Is it live or memorex?????:rotfl:


I'm not following? The point I am making is it is very advantageous to have a degree in todays society. It opens more doors than not having one. I never said anything about degrees versus experience comparison wise. It seems to me that bluewaterbeaux and you are on the attacking end. I gave an opinion based on statistical FACT and got attacked. I actually find it laughable.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Let's see if I can make this simple enough *are you justinsfa or a clone?*


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Hex txjustin since you are shooting blanks were trying to give me a greenie or a reddie. That's what happens when your reputation is in the sewer.


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## txjustin (Jun 3, 2009)

Texas T said:


> Hex txjustin since you are shooting blanks were trying to give me a greenie or a reddie. That's what happens when your reputation is in the sewer.


Lol, shooting blanks? I guess it's important what your rep is on a forum to you? Some of you guys must have a pretty boring life...
Prior to this thread I had no idea what a "greenie" or "reddie" was. Still don't care, but at least now I know.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

txjustin said:


> Lol, shooting blanks? I guess it's important what your rep is on a forum to you? Some of you guys must have a pretty boring life...


 I just like to return the gift. See I was raised that if somebody gave you something then you should give a like gift in return. I guess you weren't raised like that. 
So was it ment to be red or green. That is easy enough to answer but I guess you are still trying to find out who you are from the earlier question.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

This may be shocking to some, but there are actually 2 people with the name Justin in this world.

I know.... threw you back in your rocker didn't it T???

Amazing that out of 6 Billion people on this earth.... 2 of them actually have the same name.

Now let me scroll through all these posts and see how much more I can prove my point.... I know you have been waiting for it all day....


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

Geez...... Are all feeling the spirit now? lol


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

According to our research, the percentage of S&P 500 CEOs who earned an undergraduate degree remains unchanged from last year's high of 97%. 

http://content.spencerstuart.com/sswebsite/pdf/lib/2005_CEO_Study_JS.pdf

Occupations ranked by Percentage of workers with at least a Bachelor's Degree

http://www.ocouha.com/cur/ooh130403.htm

*Higher Education = Higher Employability.* The more educated that you are, the greater the range of available occupations. The following are percentages of unemployment for workers age 25 and over based on their level of education. 

Master's Degree: 1.6%
Bachelor's Degree: 1.8%
Associate Degree: 2.3%
Some college, no degree: 2.9%
High-school graduate: 3.5%
Some high school, no diploma: 6.5%


US Bureau of Labor Statistics (2000)
*Higher Education = Higher Income.* Here are some compelling annual income figures based on level of education: 

Some High School, No College: $21,400
High School Diploma: $28,800
Some college, no degree: $32,000
Associate Degree: $35,400
Bachelor's Degree: $46,300
Master's Degree: $55,300
US Bureau of Labor Statistics 2003
*Uh boss&#8230; can I have a promotion?* The following are percentages, based upon education, of individual employees who were promoted by their employer: 

No High School Diploma: 15.3%
High School Grad, No College: 20.8%
Less than a bachelor's: 20.7%
Bachelor's degree or more: 25%
US Bureau of Labor Statistics 2003
http://pc.ctc.edu/prospective/edplanning/transfer/why_bachelors.asp

*Why Should You get a College Degree?*

http://clicks.superpages.com/ct/cli...//redirect.tracking202.com/dl/4985118?t202kw=
With millions of students around the country matriculating to colleges and universities every year, you may feel tremendous social pressure to apply for secondary education. Before taking the plunge, you should understand why people choose colleges and universities.
College and university degrees can automatically unlock opportunities in industry. Without a bachelor's degree, on the other hand, you may find it difficult to break into fields such as finance, medicine, business, and, unsurprisingly, academia. Moreover, your college and university education can prep you for potential postgraduate courses. If you want to become a doctor, a lawyer, a politician, an engineer, a scientist, or even a teacher, you likely need some form of post high school learning and accreditation under your belt.
Moreover, the experience of attending colleges and universities provides intrinsically positive associations. The professors and students you meet at school can engage you with discussions, introduce you to unusual extracurricular activities, and expand the purview of your thought. Being a ?little fish in a big pond? has its advantages. When you are exposed to diverse viewpoints, you tend to become more tolerant of others and more open-minded about possibilities for your own future.
Another reason to head to college is entirely pecuniary. College and university grads tend to make more money than their high school-only educated counterparts do. This doesn't necessarily imply that your college and university education will make you a hotter job prospect (correlation doesn't always indicate causation). But your chances of developing the skills needed ?to learn how to learn? increase exponentially when you enroll in post high school education.
Finally, you buy yourself some time to think about your future direction. If you specialize in a vocation at the age of 18, you may find it very difficult to veer off that career path. If, on the other hand, you have four years to explore various fields and ways of thinking about the world, by the time you graduate, you'll have a much more ?filled out? idea of how the world works, and you'll theoretically be better prepared to choose a career path that meshes with your skills and life and financial goals.

http://www.superpages.com/supertips/why-should-you-get-a-college-degree.html

A bachelors degree is what most students pursue when enrolling in a US university or college. In fact, people with a bachelors degree earn substantially more than those who don't. More and more jobs and careers today require applicants to posses one. Some would argue that a bachelors degree is the first step to success. At the very least, it helps open doors of opportunity.

http://www.usastudyguide.com/bachelorsdegree.htm


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Education pays. That's what the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics says. People with more education make more money. That's not a big surprise. But they also are less likely to be unemployed. Who has the highest unemployment rate and lowest pay rate? People without a high school diploma. When unemployment grows, those without a HS diploma suffer most. The GED is a chance to earn a high school diploma, but more than that, it opens doors to the higher education that's so valuable in today's job market.
Take a look at unemployment rates in 2008. No high school diploma? The unemployment rate was 9%. Among high school graduates, it was only 5.7%. That's lower by more than a third. What if you earned a 2-year Associate degree at a community college? The unemployment rate was only 3.7% among people with Associate degrees. The more education you earned, the lower your chances of being unemployed. That means education equates to jobs.
But what kind of jobs? That's where income comes in. Among people 25 and over who had full-time jobs, the median weekly income for people without a high school diploma was $426 in 2008. With a high school diploma, it jumped to $591 a week, an increase of nearly 40%. With that 2-year Associate degree, median income $736 a week. More education equates to better paying jobs.
According to 2008 figures from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, adults with less than a HS diploma had a 9% unemployment rate, and earned a median income of $426, among those with jobs. High school graduates had only 5.7% unemployment, and earned $591. Those with some college who didn't graduate had 5.1% unemployment and earned $645. Those with an Associate degree had only 3.7% unemployment and earned $736. Those with a Bachelor's degree had 2.8% unemployment and $978 weekly earnings. A Master's degree? 2.4% unemployment and $1,228 weekly earnings. Those with a professional degree had the lowest unemployment, 1.7%, and weekly earnings of $1,522. Those with a Doctoral degree had 2.0% unemployment and the highest median earnings, at $1,555 per week.
The opportunities that education gives you are too good to pass up. If you don't have your HS Diploma check into the GED. You can get more education, and more education means more opportunity.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-Get-a-GED?-Unemployment,-Earnings,-and-Education&id=3058975

*Why Get a Graduate Degree?*

*Once upon a time in America, high school graduates were regarded as unusually well-educated.* A high school education provided more than enough training for a number of high-paying careers. Throughout the 1800s, the high school diploma distinguished the financially successful from those with day-to-day financial struggles. However, as the U.S. population swelled with immigrants and more Americans moved to urban areas, social activists and lawmakers saw a need for all residents to receive a common secondary education. From 1900 to 1996, the percentage of children earning high school diplomas rose from about 5% to about 85%. As the high school diploma became more common, its value fell. In 1975, those without a high school diploma earned just 10% less than people with college degrees. In 2005, they earned 30% less. The diploma's worth has fallen as more high school graduates are competing for jobs. At the same time, the U.S. economy has changed since the late 1970s. Higher-paying jobs today demand advanced training. *College graduates are finding that the bachelor's degree has also lost its competitive advantage. *A four-year degree no longer offers the promise of a steadily-rising income. Since 2001, wages for the majority of college-educated U.S. workers have not increased when adjusted for inflation. In 2007, the real value of wages actually fell almost 2% below the 2001 level. Just as the high school diploma lost value as it became more common, the baccalaureate has become a victim of downsizing. Globalization and technology have redefined the worth of an educated workforce. Positions that once brought a comfortable and steadily-growing income have become obsolete, stagnant, or moved overseas. *Today's employers are rewarding people who have very specific and advanced skills. *Graduate degrees have therefore become the new must-have degree for career growth and financial success.

*Earning Potential for Class of 2009 Graduates*

The Class of 2009 knows that finding a job in this market will be a difficult task. They have been watching the job market disintegrate since the U.S. entered the recession.
According to a new study by the National Association of College and Employers, fewer than one in five graduates who are looking for jobs have found one; employers are planning to hire 22 percent fewer graduates than they did in 2008. This is very discouraging news, and explains in part why fewer students are actively seeking jobs. This time last year, 67 percent of college grads had begun looking for a job. This year, only 59 percent have even begun looking.
"Whether they've decided to delay their careers because of the economy or don't realize how tough the job market is, fewer grads have started job hunting," said Andrea Koncz, employment information manager at NACE.
There is always a silver lining though. Students with a Bachelor's degree are more likely to get a job than people who only have a high school education. Those with a Bachelor's degree have an unemployment rate of only 6.1 percent; those with only a high school degree have an unemployment rate of 19.6 percent.
Another bright spot: Several industries, including transportation, utilities, and alternative energy are actually planning to hire more graduates this year than they did in 2008.
Maybe you are thinking: "OK great, so they have a job? But are they making enough money to survive?" Well, the answer is, surprisingly, yes.

The average job offered to a 2009 graduate has a base salary of $48,515. For engineers, that salary can be closer to $60,000. However, for TV news reporters, the salary stays low at $25,500.
It is not impossible to get a high (enough) paying job in today's market if you graduate with a Bachelor's degree in an applicable field. However, you will have to make the extra effort to secure a job offer.
"Students say all the time, 'I submitted my resume online and I never heard back,'" said Eric Lochtefeld, founder of University of Dreams, an organization that helps students find internships. "The best advice that I can give to students is stop playing the numbers game. Things that worked 20 years ago before the Internet - direct contact, person-to-person networking - still work today."

http://www.eduinreview.com/blog/2009/06/earning-potential-for-class-of-2009-graduates/


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

In my research, I also was looking for why one would NOT want a bachelors degree, and I found the following debate quite truthful... It states that degrees are overrated and that alot of skills can be learned on the job, BUT, points out even in the argument that "employers view a bachelors degree as a screening mechanism."

*Seminar Briefing: Who Needs a College Education Anyway?*

*December 7, 2008
Georgia Tech Hotel and Conference Center, Atlanta*
*Application Deadline:* Ended - October 24, 2008 
President Barack Obama set an ambitious new goal for the country, proclaiming in his speech to a joint session of Congress on February 24, 2009 that "by 2020, America will once again have the highest proportion of college graduates in the world." At present, America lags behind nine other nations in the percentage of 25- to 34-year-olds who have at least an associate's degree. Only two out of five Americans aged 25 to 34 have an associate's degree or higher, compared to almost three out of five Canadians (who ranked first).
But not everyone agrees that we need more college graduates. 
The link between educational attainment and economic growth, some say, is tenuous. Economist Richard Rothstein, for instance, notes that it "takes no more education to drive a forklift at Amazon than at Kmart."
Against this backdrop, author *Charles Murray* and researcher *Anthony Carnevale* debated the question of "Who Needs a College Education Anyway?" at the Hechinger Institute's Seminar for Higher Education Reporters in December 2008. Scott Jaschik of Inside Higher Ed moderated the debate.

Murray, the W. H. Brady Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, recently published _Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality_, (Random House, 2008). The controversial book argues that the U.S. places undue emphasis on the value of bachelor's degrees. Much of what people need to know to succeed can be learned on the job, Murray contends, and most employers view a bachelor's degree as a screening mechanism rather than a guarantee that certain skills have been mastered. Because ability varies and 50 percent of people are below average, our current system of higher education makes little sense, Murray claims.
Carnevale, research professor and director of the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce, argues we should encourage as many students as possible to attend and graduate from college. Carnevale says intelligence isn't fixed at birth and can be influenced by education. Social inequality, in Carnevale's view, is driven by societal conditions and not biology. Our current system of higher education isn't in need of a radical overhaul - it works fairly well - and it is more competitive and flexible than European models, Carnevale says.
After their presentations, Murray and Carnevale took questions from journalists participating in the Seminar.

Not many concrete numbers were included in this argument by either side, but it still drives home the fact that even though a degree may not be necessary, it is a definite asset to ones arsenal in the working world/ job search.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Reel Aggies said:


> Why has no one said if they would encourage their kids to go to college or not? Maybe it should be made a poll? I am really curious.


Because they are embarrassed to admit that someone else is right.... They will keep dancing around the subject and ignoring the question at hand....

Personally, I will encourage my children to attend college. It will give them an definite advantage. My parents did the same thing, even though they both did not attend college.

Unfortunately, and I can already see it coming, even a bachelor's degree will be so standardized, that a specialized or master's degree will be required for them to get that edge.

I started putting away money last spring for my kids futures.... and I dont even have any kids... I use the Way 2 Save program from Wachovia... Its one of those programs that puts a dollar into a savings account everytime you use your ATM card... It has worked out great! I didn't realize how often I use that thing! Its easier for me to save when its subconscious.


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa you are really full of yourself. Why don't you write a book then we can read it if we were interested.


Who are you trying to impress besides yourself with all the cut and pasting and rambling?:rotfl:


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Blue Water Breaux said:


> To add to what I've already stated:
> 
> Obtaining a job, especially with a contact within the company or has a direct influence on the company makes a dang big difference, esp if they're willing to vouge for you. Its not what you know, Its WHO you know...:smile:


That is a valid point. The problem that you run into is when you pursue a career in a new field, or out of town, or for a large company that has standards and requirements.

I would definetely say that in our oil and gas industry, if you know someone, you're chances are much better of getting at least an interview, if not the job.

Unfortunately, I have seen it first hand on a few occasions.... Even if you know somebody, if you dont meet the requirements, there is not much you can do.... But that person you know can definetely hook you up with an interview and put in a good word! That may be just the edge that you need!


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Bobby said:


> justinsfa you are really full of yourself. Why don't you write a book then we can read it if we were interested.
> 
> Who are you trying to impress besides yourself with all the cut and pasting and rambling?:rotfl:


Its called documented research on the topic, something you obviously have not been introduced to yet... either that, or you can't find any to support your view.

I form an opinion when I find out the facts... I just don't take someone's word for it. You might want to give it a shot sometime.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Do you get a commission from the colleges?


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> Its called documented research on the topic, something you obviously have not been introduced to yet... either that, or you can't find any to support your view.
> 
> I form an opinion when I find out the facts... I just don't take someone's word for it. You might want to give it a shot sometime.


You don't know me from Adam. How do you know what my views are about anything. Are you also a mind reader or physic ? I formed a opinion of you after you posted about the 10th time. I believe you like to read your own posts.:tongue:


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Bobby said:


> You don't know me from Adam. How do you know what my views are about anything. Are you also a mind reader or physic ? I formed a opinion of you after you posted about the 10th time. I believe you like to read your own posts.:tongue:


:ac550::cheers:


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

Justin, from one lumberjack to another, you have came across a little pompous on this topic--remember the economic spectrum we all are in. rs


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Bobby said:


> You don't know me from Adam. How do you know what my views are about anything. Are you also a mind reader or physic ? I formed a opinion of you after you posted about the 10th time. I believe you like to read your own posts.:tongue:


True. I don't know you. And I doubt I am missing out on much. If you have no opinion or research or statistics on the topic, then just what is your reasoning behind posting on this thread in the first place? Because you want to join some kind of club and feel important? Hurry, pick a side and maybe someone will like you? Aw, how sad.

Your opinion of me has no significance to this topic. I can't seem to post my opinion on you... Pesky asterisks keep getting in the way.

And yes, I am physic.... I am also psychic. Pretty neat huh? just kidding...

I believe you like to read my posts too.... you are keeping a pretty close watch.....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

sweenyite said:


> Do you get a commission from the colleges?


No, I get a commission from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics...


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## jeff.w (Jan 22, 2006)

Rusty S said:


> Justin, from one lumberjack to another, you have came across a little pompous on this topic--remember the economic spectrum we all are in. rs


x 1,000

It's not that we aren't reading your copy/paste of 4 mile long posts justinsfa, (well ok, we're not), but I think what's happened here is no one cares about your statistics or your stance on this topic any longer. I, for one, see your boring cut/paste 1/2 page posts, and skip on by it. Your attitude and personality have stood out with each of your posts, which negates any valid points you may make, starting about 25 posts back. Please move on.


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

sweenyite said:


> Do you get a commission from the colleges?


Lmao! You have to admit he is persistent!


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Rusty S said:


> Justin, from one lumberjack to another, you have came across a little pompous on this topic--remember the economic spectrum we all are in. rs


I apologize you feel that way Rusty, but it is rediculous to compare a college education to the likes of a crappy piece of paper and claim that it has no significance in today's workforce.

I am not better than anyone else just because I have a degree, just as no one is better than me just because they have been alive longer....


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

:headknock...You've hit the brick wall....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

jeff.w said:


> x 1,000
> 
> It's not that we aren't reading your copy/paste of 4 mile long posts justinsfa, (well ok, we're not), but I think what's happened here is no one cares about your statistics or your stance on this topic any longer. I, for one, see your boring cut/paste 1/2 page posts, and skip on by it. Your attitude and personality have stood out with each of your posts, which negates any valid points you may make, starting about 25 posts back. Please move on.


Those copy/paste posts are examples of REAL research on this topic. Real statistics. Real information. Not opinions.

If you have lost interest and feel the need to move on, please do so.

Alot of bad info is being posted concerning the importance of education. Those views have no backbone.

Also, I do apologize if I come across as rude. But to be honest, I am just a blunt person. Hard headed? Maybe, but I take after my grandpa.... haha....


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

I really am sorry you and your Dad didn't get along. Also sorry that he made you feel the way you do about people older than you. Maybe he should have took you out to the woodshed a little more. It might have helped. I am so sorry he made you work from the day you were born and have to pay for everything all by yourself. Have you thought about seeing a professional?


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## htalamant (Mar 31, 2009)

Justin,

I have no interest in reading too much into your posts 'cause I'd rather watch cats eat their own poop.... but I have a problem with the way you addressed veterans and the elderly community versus your college education so I'll give you a good reason to give me a Reddie. I have nothing against either of the two because I am college educated and a veteran. And it's no secret, I am now a servant of my community that I dutifully protect and serve to the fullest of my abilities.

You won't find any tears from me 'cause one thing I don't do is "hide" behind my education or my position in my community and use it as a means to degrade or disrespect others like you did! I think it was especially rude and very untactful how you made comments overall to us veterans and to the elderly community by referring to them as drinking tonic and playing shuffleboard! I don't cut, copy and paste unless I have to but after I filter all that garbage you try to force down everyone's throats (as if they actually give two crapolas less) the fact remains that you are a snotty, disrespectful, ignorant, egotistical nincompoop!!!! But then again, you're 27 so I guess you know everything.

But do you know what the funny thing is? If I could have it again, I would fight no less and no less harder as a soldier to protect your rights and freedom as I did when I served our country. I don't necessarily agree with your ideas and thoughts, because that's your right and your opinion. Your ideas are without a doubt very insightful and something even I could benefit from, but your attitude really could use some adjusting. And just so you know, you probably embarrassed the "educated" community because I know for a fact that you don't speak for those people in the workforce with your comments that were completely uncalled for!

You crossed that line with your comments about veterans and our elders (especially W_R Ranch even though he can defend himself!) I fought next to and proudly served with other men and women from "all" walks of life. There were those that had to choose between the military or prison. There were those that were less fortunate and actually "cried" during chow time because that was the most they ever ate at a table. Then the over-privileged, silver-spoon fed fellas that humbled themselves just to gain respect because they actually "cared" for our country and asked for nothing in return.

I also remember young, single mothers who had to spend time away from their kids because the daddies were deadbeats who couldn't pay child support and then even folks like me...college educated with police experience. So fast forward from 8 years ago to about last night when I read your comments. My jaw literally dropped to read such words where you profess your self-righteousness. The only people that do that are just that, the "self-righteous!"

You know, you are not part of the solution to the workforce issue. You are part of the problem! I cut so many breaks to others when I see and learn of how they lost their jobs. The workforce situation today is absolutely no joke. I am not saying that you treated it like one 'cause you are obviously an intelligent young man, but what gives you the right to dump on those who aren't a part of it?

I am sure some of the other vets here can defend themselves, but don't ever degrade them just so you can get your point and opinion (that you are dutifully entitled to have just like anyone else) across. Who in the f#@k are you to do that? If there is something I learned growing up, it is ALWAYS...and I emphasize...ALWAYS respect your elders. I am not an elder, but someone who safeguards the sanctity and respect of such.

...and just so you know, NO TEARS HERE...but you misspelled the words, "tutor" and "endure"...and you were a "tudor" for kids?...what a nincompoop! There, give me another reddie now you little f#^&er and don't go off topic with it like you did giving me this last one!! -Hector


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Cats are weird like that...


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## gitchesum (Nov 18, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> 3 words out of 10,000??? Wow man... thats a good eye!!!
> 
> Where did you learn to cut and paste like that? You would have impressed me if you would have come up with your own definition, or even took the effort to type it yourself.
> 
> Unfortunately, you did not.... so the only thing you have proved is that you have mastered how to click, drag and click again. Good Job Tiger!


What's that you were saying about cut and paste?

Not only are you a pompous little ***, you're also quite the hyprocrite.

Good Job Tiger


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

htalamant said:


> Justin,
> 
> I have no interest in reading too much into your posts 'cause I'd rather watch cats eat their own poop.... but I have a problem with the way you addressed veterans and the elderly community versus your college education so I'll give you a good reason to give me a Reddie. I have nothing against either of the two because I am college educated and a veteran. And it's no secret, I am now a servant of my community that I dutifully protect and serve to the fullest of my abilities.
> 
> ...


I always enjoy your posts Hector. Green to ya!


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## jeff.w (Jan 22, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> I apologize you feel that way Rusty, but it is *rediculous* to compare a college education to the likes of a crappy piece of paper and claim that it has no significance in today's workforce.
> 
> I am not better than anyone else just because I have a degree, just as no one is better than me just because they have been alive longer....


What's _ridiculous_ is how many words you misspell.:rotfl: I also find it ironic and laughable that you did it in the same sentence you were pointing out the importance of a college education.


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

sweenyite said:


> I always enjoy your posts Hector. Green to ya!


x2


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

gitchesum said:


> What's that you were saying about cut and paste?
> 
> Not only are you a pompous little ***, you're also quite the hyprocrite.
> 
> Good Job Tiger


Touche.... you got me on that one... I just wanted to make sure I got EVERY WORD EXACTLY right so as to drive the facts in deeper... But, you can't win them all...

I will give you that one...

Me 1 Tiger 1.... haha

You gotta admit though, my cutting and pasting was way cooler than yours.... Just one of the perks of being a pompous little guy....

Im not sure why your post is asterisked out... it shows up fine for me! hahaha


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## Mr. Tuffy (May 5, 2005)

Arguing on the internet is like winning in special olympics... in the end you are still retarded.

This horse has been beaten days after it died. Please put this to rest.


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## Catfishy (Jul 2, 2009)

jeff.w said:


> What's _ridiculous_ is how many words you misspell.:rotfl: I also find it ironic and laughable that you did it in the same sentence you were pointing out the importance of a college education.


With his education I'm sure it's not his spelling that's the problem. It has to be his typing. He says he types 100 words a minute. He likes to brag. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

Justin is a good cat, he speaks what many of us think, who are you to cast the first stone. rs


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Rusty S said:


> Justin is a good cat, he speaks what many of us think, who are you to cast the first stone. rs


That's why I didn't bash him personally... I don't know him. Just have a few different ideas.


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

sweenyite said:


> That's why I didn't bash him personally... I don't know him. Just have a few different ideas.


I know, these are tough times in which we live, everybody needs to live and learn. I love all you guys and gals, whether you agree or disagree with my opinion, give Justin the same. rs


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## fisHRman (Aug 11, 2005)

Very interesting thread to say the least. Having been in HR for 22+ years, I can tell you that most of the position descriptions for our jobs have a line in them that states "or any equivalent combination of education and experience which provides the applicant with the necessary knowledge, skills and abilities to perform the job". The few exceptions are those that have specific requirements such as CPA's, PE's, MD's JD's etc. Taking that position in our hiring process has served us well.

It is interesting to note that we are currently in a job environment where for the first time there are 4 distinct generations of people in the workforce. Think what you will about generational divides, but I find the positions and responses taken by those participating in this thread to be very telling.

JustinSFA, while I appreciate your position in this discourse and even agree with much of what you said, I hope that you become more adept at proving your points without so much (perceived) hostility and arrogance. Your apparent lack of respect toward an older generation and toward those in the military is very disconcerting to say the least. I realize that some of the responses to your posts may have been inflammatory in their own right, however a rude/disrespectful response is never appropriate in intelligent conversation.

All that being said, I have and will continue to encourage my children (and any other person who asks) to get as much education as they can by any means that they can. Knowledge is good and gives one a competitive advantage no matter how it is acquired. I currently have 1 college graduate, 1 in college, and 1 who went for a semester before parlaying a summer job into the start of a very lucrative position in the oil and gas industry. And I am currently saving as much as I can so that my 11 y.o. twins can pursue their education should they choose to do so.

Finally - thanks to all of those on this board who served our country and defended our freedom so that we can even have this sort of discussion.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

fisHRman said:


> Very interesting thread to say the least. Having been in HR for 22+ years, I can tell you that most of the position descriptions for our jobs have a line in them that states "or any equivalent combination of education and experience which provides the applicant with the necessary knowledge, skills and abilities to perform the job". The few exceptions are those that have specific requirements such as CPA's, PE's, MD's JD's etc. Taking that position in our hiring process has served us well.
> 
> It is interesting to note that we are currently in a job environment where for the first time there are 4 distinct generations of people in the workforce. Think what you will about generational divides, but I find the positions and responses taken by those participating in this thread to be very telling.
> 
> ...


Out of 22 pages of posts, that is probably the best one.... fair and informative.

I also encourage you all to take a gander at the following thread for more viewpoints.

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=241575


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

fisHRman said:


> Very interesting thread to say the least. Having been in HR for 22+ years, I can tell you that most of the position descriptions for our jobs have a line in them that states "or any equivalent combination of education and experience which provides the applicant with the necessary knowledge, skills and abilities to perform the job". The few exceptions are those that have specific requirements such as CPA's, PE's, MD's JD's etc. Taking that position in our hiring process has served us well.
> 
> It is interesting to note that we are currently in a job environment where for the first time there are 4 distinct generations of people in the workforce. Think what you will about generational divides, but I find the positions and responses taken by those participating in this thread to be very telling.
> 
> ...


Thank you sir, well said. rs


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## State_Vet (Oct 10, 2006)

I didn't go to college, but all the people that work for me did:wink:


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

State_Vet said:


> I didn't go to college, but all the people that work for me did:wink:


schwap-pow! :rotfl:


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## Bobby (May 21, 2004)

When I used to work a long time ago I had a guy with a PHD working for me sweeping parking lots before I seal coated them. The only way I could be sure he would stay all day was to make sure he was drunk. Man that guy could work when drunk. But sober he was worthless.


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## Barnacle Bill (May 21, 2004)

Excellent post Fishr.


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

weigh to meny edjumacated peeps on dis post for meez to understand..lol

Now can we all go fishing and try to get along? lmao


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## Justin_Time (Jan 29, 2008)

I actually went into the military after finishing high school rather than heading off to college like most of my peers did. After completing my enlistment I enrolled in a local community college and found out it just wasn't for me.

I was lucky to enough to land a job in field where a degree is not necessary (litigation support). I am proud to say that as of today, I seem to do better financially than all of my peers that chose to attend college. That might not be the norm; I am just telling you how it is&#8230;


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

I went fishing today and didn't think of this thread one single time. Sorry, I just had to say that. :rotfl:


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## htalamant (Mar 31, 2009)

Is anyone here into the B-Hole Surfers? They're one of my favorite bands and both Gibby and Paul are college graduates from Trinity University in (of course....) my hometown of San Antonio......and have a very, very successful, life-long band...the B-Hole Surfers!!! 
 
Here's one of their videos.....my point?...even some of us college edumucated folks can have fun!!!!!!!!!!! (and just so you know...both Gibby and Paul are in their 50's!!!!!) Enjoy this video folks and feel free to dance around!! -Hector


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

sweenyite said:


> I went fishing today and didn't think of this thread one single time. Sorry, I just had to say that. :rotfl:


I bet you used dead horse meat for bait? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


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## tailwalker35 (Jul 3, 2008)

justinsfa I agree with SOME of what you have said. I will be pushing my 2 girls to go to college because I think it will help them in life but I really want you to address what Hector has posted. He really blew your educated arse up about what you said about the veterans and I want to hear your side. Granted you are probably to big of educated egomaniac to argue with a lowly veteran and LEO. I believe you could of had some valid points if you would have checked your degree at the door. Just saying.


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

Justin is a good guy, far from an egomaniac, he is a good cat that has his own values. rs


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

bottom line.... it's up to fate 

I know a person who grew up without any parents in an orphanage, did not graduate high school, and started a multi-million dollar a year business and to this day has no worries about anything financial. Some peoples brains just click and they get it.. mechanically inclined, business savvy, etc. Bill Gates is a prime example for the famous list of successful under-educated people.

And I know many with degrees who work for somebody else, and they do advance and earn more than non-degrees. Starting salary for degree is higher as well. Come out of high school, start a job at a company just happy to get in, say at $40k a year... you work 10 years and get great awesome experience, raised up to about $55 or $60k in those 10 years.. woo hooo... (if you were to quit and rehire elsewhere you would get a bigger raise than staying with same company.. that's how it works)... now, a college grad comes in, starts out at the same salary the non degree'd person has worked to... all because of a degree? Or knowing they have a degree and expect and negotiated the salary they received?

Way too many equations in the picture.. eash side has their success stories no doubt.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Melon said:


> I bet you used dead horse meat for bait? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


Well, there was plenty lying around and 24BUDS said he was full, so yes, I used the dead horsemeat from this thread...


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

InfamousJ said:


> bottom line.... it's up to fate
> 
> I know a person who grew up without any parents in an orphanage, did not graduate high school, and started a multi-million dollar a year business and to this day has no worries about anything financial. Some peoples brains just click and they get it.. mechanically inclined, business savvy, etc. Bill Gates is a prime example for the famous list of successful under-educated people.
> 
> ...


 J I told you to leave my life history out of this. rs


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

tailwalker35 said:


> justinsfa I agree with SOME of what you have said. I will be pushing my 2 girls to go to college because I think it will help them in life but I really want you to address what Hector has posted. He really blew your educated arse up about what you said about the veterans and I want to hear your side. Granted you are probably to big of educated egomaniac to argue with a lowly veteran and LEO. I believe you could of had some valid points if you would have checked your degree at the door. Just saying.


*Justinsfa...I think you might be partially responsible for this thread evolving to horsemeat & butthole surfing...:help:*


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

Rusty S said:


> Justin is a good guy, far from an egomaniac, he is a good cat that has his own values. rs


He reminds me of infamous J many years back! So he can't be that bad. lol J turned out alright.We had to dunk him a few times. Tie him up with duct tape to the pole. Walk the plank! You know? That kinda stuff! Now he's a mighty fine fella now! lmao


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

Blk Jck 224 said:


> *Justinsfa...I think you might be partially responsible for this thread evolving to horsemeat & butthole surfing...:help:*


He is a good kid, enough said. rs


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

Well one thing for shure.... He shure trolled all of us old farts along for a ride. Not that I kepted up with thread or nothing. lol


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

ok, time to shut her down.. butthole surfing has it licked. LMAO :rotfl:


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Rusty S said:


> He is a good kid, enough said. rs


is he your kid?


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

Melon said:


> He reminds me of infamous J many years back! So he can't be that bad. lol J turned out alright.We had to dunk him a few times. Tie him up with duct tape to the pole. Walk the plank! You know? That kinda stuff! Now he's a mighty fine fella now! lmao


 We have all been there, some of us even got banned. rs


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

InfamousJ said:


> is he your kid?


 NO, Mr. Millionaire, he is a lumberjack though. rs


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

Somebody owes me a new keyboard..lol I refuse to quote his reply.


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

Ok......Back to the topic! How many of you old farts are gonna go back to school.lmao


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## Rusty S (Apr 6, 2006)

Bring it Melon. rs


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

If you don't, JustinSFA ain't gonna hire you Melon!


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

lmao! I'm retiring in six bro! Well maybe 8!


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## 007 (Mar 11, 2008)

sweenyite said:


> If you don't, JustinSFA ain't gonna hire you Melon!


.......or he'll hire you to keep his post count up for him...........


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

Melon said:


> lmao! I'm retiring in six bro! Well maybe 8!


Yeah...rub it in. I've got about 30 to go....


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

Rusty S said:


> He is a good kid, enough said. rs


Sorry RS...Wasn't meant in anger...trying to make light of the situation...hwell:


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## fiftypesos (Aug 2, 2009)

http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/06/news/economy/jobs_october/

I thought this might fit well in this coversation. The piece is talking about the 10 + percent employment rate.

A small quote from the article.

"The rise in unemployment was not spread evenly across the population. For those with college degrees, the unemployment rate fell to 4.7% from 4.9% in September, as the unemployment rate for those in management, professional, and related occupations slipped to 4.7% from 5.2%.
But the unemployment rate for production jobs, such as factory workers, jumped to 14.5% from 14.1%. The jobless rate for workers in construction, maintenance or natural resources industries such as mining rose to 15.5% from 14.3%."

best all


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## NoCatchinFishMark (Oct 23, 2009)

School really does not mean a whole lot to me. I have known alot of dummies with degrees. A degree just proves that someone went to school long enough to get one.


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