# effective range



## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

I have a draw weight of 60lbs and my bows fps is rated at 305. What is the maximum effective range for hunting for a bow with these stats?


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## sharkchum (Feb 10, 2012)

It depends on your shooting ability ,the bow has nothing to do with it.Most of the deer I've shot have been under 30 yards.I limit my self to how far I can keep 5 shots within a 3" group,for me about 40 yards.


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

Actually I'm trying to figure out where I wAnt to put my pins. Because I wAnt to practice for a.longer shot range. I just don't want to practice a 60yrd shot and be dead on and not put the deer down because I don't have enough force to be effective


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## afishinman14 (Dec 19, 2007)

People kill deer with traditional long bows and recurves all the time. They usually don't even shoot 200fps. It's more about ethical shots than the bow's ability. Usually 40yds is a long ways to kill a deer. Most try for 30yd or less. As far as your pins go you should have at least 5 to range out to 60yds. Start at 15 or 20. I like to go in 10td increments from there. Mine are 20, 30, 40, 50, 60. But I can almost guarantee that I wont go past 40 while hunting. And I shoot 70lbs w/ 30" draw. My bow actually shoots the IBO rating of 335. And I can shoot 2" groups at 40yds. 

Also to think about is what broadhead you use. A cut-on-contact fixed blade will deliver more energy than a mechanical usually but your bow needs to be tuned very well to ensure fixed blade accuracy at longer distances. Like I said, 9 out of 10 bow hunters will tell you a 40yd kill shot is pretty impressive and your bow can handle that for sure.


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## afishinman14 (Dec 19, 2007)

Also shot placement, you hit a shoulder as opposed to slipping behind it. One penetrates further than the other. Your 305fps rating is for 70lbs @30" draw also, just in case you didnt already know that. Which you probably did...haha

I've had fits just getting a shot off much less worrying about its effectiveness once shot. Oh the joys of bowhunting!!!


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

This year I plan to use the NAP Bloodrunner. It's a hybrid between fixed and mechanical. I used the rage two blade last year with success, but the o rings did present another variable that I had to deal with in the field.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Personally where I hunt I wouldn't shoot beyond 30 and>>> only if deer is at ease and not alarmed. 1 of the few deer I've lost was eating Whiteoak acorns at 35 it took 1/2 step after I released, I centerpunched the stomach, I wasn't shooting a 300fps bow then, BUT it was the fastest they had on the market at the time. BTW I would NOT take a shot at 20 on an alarmed deer no matter how fast your bow shoots.....WW


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## TooShallow (May 21, 2004)

What you're asking is a kinetic energy question. I like to have a minimum of 80 ft.lbs out of the bow. For whitetail I have seen suggested minimums as low as 45 ft.lbs. Chances are you are shooting plenty of KE as most hunting rigs are in the 70-90 ft.lbs range. At these levels you will have enough KE to kill whitetail way out there if your shot placement is good. Effective range is all about how well you shoot at a given distance. If you set a 60 yard pin then shoot a lot at 60 yards and work on form and grouping. The closer shots will seem like chip shots after shooting a lot a 60. If you can't keep your group around 6" at 60 then you need to work on form, bow tuning, arrow tuning, etc.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Ask all of the traditional archers about kinetic energy. Before the compound made its debut around the 70's there were millions of animals killed by bows putting out "not enough kinetic energy," at 160-180 fps. Kinetic energy is just part of the equation. I would rather have perfect arrow flight with a 180 fps 550 gr arrow, than a 300 fps 375 gr arrow that wasn't flying true.

Penetration is the goal and the inputs contributing to penetration are:

1. Arrow weight
2. Speed
3. Broadhead cutting efficiency
4. Arrow diameter- smaller goes further in
5. What the broadhead hits: bone or not
6. Alertness of the animal: if alert and tensed up, muscles are tight
7. Type of animal/hide: deer is easier to go through than moose

Kinetic energy only considers two of the above: speed and weight


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## TooShallow (May 21, 2004)

If you calculate the KE for that 550 gr arrow you will see it has plenty. I started with a Pearson recurve and shot heavy cedar shaft arrows with Bear razorheads that had lots of KE. Bottom line is KE. If you don't have it you won't get good penetration regardless of rig, broadhead type, sharpness, etc.


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## Topwater Jones (Aug 9, 2011)

Practice! Practice! Practice!


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

TooShallow said:


> If you calculate the KE for that 550 gr arrow you will see it has plenty. I started with a Pearson recurve and shot heavy cedar shaft arrows with Bear razorheads that had lots of KE. Bottom line is KE. If you don't have it you won't get good penetration regardless of rig, broadhead type, sharpness, etc.


We might want to consider this, regarding your last sentence. I am sure that a good quality, cut on contact, extremely sharp broadhead can, in some cases, penetrate further than a bad design, bullet point, dull bladed broad head that might have more KE.

Also, as I said, not much attention is sometimes paid to arrow flight. How many times have we all watched one of the "shows" and seen horrible arrow flight. Wobbling all over the place. Nothing kills penetration more than that.

Actually if you calculate the kinetic energy for my two examples:

The 550 gr arrow at 180 fps only has 39.56 ft/lbs of kinetic energy

The 380 gr arrow at 300 fps has 74.92 ft/lbs of kintetic energy

Less than 40 ft lbs is pretty anemic in today's world, but as we both said that arrow combo has killed a lot of animals. By the way I still have some of my original Bear razorheads from the 60's. Amazing how alike they are to some of the ones being made today- muzzy phantoms, magnus, zwickey, etc.

The Saxton Pope combo of 600 gr at 160 fps only yields 34 ft lbs.

Thus my original point. I think this is basically the same conversation we as rifle shooters have over KE and Momentum.

Read the following pretty empirical data from a guy named Russell Thornberry:

I tested three specific types of broadheads: a simple 2-blade, cut-to-the-tip head, a 3-bladed chisel-tipped head and a 3-bladed conical (bullet) tipped head. I pressed each broadhead into the pig's side three times and noted the average amount of foot pounds of energy that each head required to penetrate. The results were astounding. The 2-blade cut-to-the-tip head averaged 1 ¼ pounds of energy to penetrate the hide and slice into the lungs. The 3-blade head with a chisel tip averaged 55 pounds of energy to accomplish the same task, and the 3-blade conical-tipped head averaged 82 pounds of energy to penetrate. This static test left no question about effective penetration. The cut-to-the-tip was in a league if its own. If penetration is achieved best when the least amount of arrow inertia is utilized in breaking through an animal's hide, then every pound of inertia lost in this process robs the arrow of ultimate penetration.

The second part of my test was a dynamic approach. I propped the hog up on his belly and shot all three broadhead types with three arrows each, to see how they would penetrate on a 660-grain shaft shot from an 80-pound bow at a distance of 30 yards. The dynamic test further affirmed the results of the static test. All three arrows with the 2-blade, cut-to-the-tip broadheads shot completely through the hog with ease. The 3-blade chisel-tipped heads were less effective. Two of them entered the chest cavity without penetrating the offside. The third arrow broke through the skin about three inches on the offside and stopped. The conical-tipped heads were astounding failures. The first two arrows bounced off the hog and the third one entered the vital cavity because it hit a previously cut hole.

fun to talk about though.


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## Chunky (Oct 15, 2006)

Your bow will kill much farther than you should set up to shoot (my opinion).

Like some of the others have said...there is much to consider when taking a shot. Animal alertness, wind, your body position, are you wearing bulky clothing, are you stiff from sitting still for a few hours, is it low light...etc?????

I am going to make up a number here, 90 % of all bow kills are less than 30 yards. I can't prove that, but I bet I am right.

I would recommend just using one pin. It should be in the kill from 10 to 30. If you feel like you can make a shot a little farther, just adjust up to the middle of the body.

I feel terrible when I wound something, so I am very careful about my shot selection.

My good friend Buff, says that to find your effective range....put a 3-D deer target up against the grill of your new truck. The distance you are willing to shoot at the target is the distance you should be shooting at real animals. 

Bowhunting is a close range sport, it's not about how far you can shoot. That is why most of us changed from the rifle...see how close you can get.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Chunky said:


> Your bow will kill much farther than you should set up to shoot (my opinion).
> 
> Like some of the others have said...there is much to consider when taking a shot. Animal alertness, wind, your body position, are you wearing bulky clothing, are you stiff from sitting still for a few hours, is it low light...etc?????
> 
> ...


Chunky,

Great post. I am LMAO at the target next to the truck trick. That's a good one.

Regarding sitting still for a few hours. I just spent 53 hours in an antelope blind over 4.5 days a couple of weeks ago. I CAN RELATE. I drew my bow about every couple of hours to "keep loose."

For the newer guys in the sport there is a lot of knowledge in this post. Take heed. My only comment might be to add maybe one more pin???
That's a personal thing.

Great post.


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## Chunky (Oct 15, 2006)

Thanks Jammer, 

You always post good information, and way smarter on the math and technical side than I am.

The amount of pins is a personal choice. One of my beautiful bowhunting daughters uses just one pin, the other uses 3 (10,20,30).

I just know when that big buck walks out and the adrendline is pumping, your heart racing a hundred fifty beats a minutes, the more simple you keep things, the less likely you will pick the wrong pin, forget to pick a spot, jerk your release, etc......

I am a simple man, I like my equipment and technique uncomplicated. But, to each his own, and whatever works for the individual.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Roger that Chunky.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

no-one needs to shoot over 40 yards, I have bow hunted for way too long and too much can go wrong, deer jump the string, duck the arrow and so on.

I will give credit to new points tho, I killed 3 deer w bear "sharpen your own points" and cedar shafts, a lot has changed.

The old stats were that "most " deer were killed inside 20 yards, prob has changed w better gear.

I always shot off of 2 pins , a 20 and a 40, and agree w the others, keep it simple


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

Chunky said:


> Your bow will kill much farther than you should set up to shoot (my opinion).
> 
> ........
> 
> ...


X2


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

CoastalOutfitters said:


> *no-one needs to shoot over 40 yards*, I have bow hunted for way too long and too much can go wrong, deer jump the string, duck the arrow and so on.
> 
> I will give credit to new points tho, I killed 3 deer w bear "sharpen your own points" and cedar shafts, a lot has changed.
> 
> ...


pretty bold statement there, i personally limit myself to 25 yards, but that's just me....i'm not going to say "no-one" should or shouldn't do what they feel comfortable with at the time of the shot, especially with a quiet rig and the right conditions...

how do you feel about the guys up north that stalk open range mule deer and consistantly kill them at 60-80 yards?


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Good post Chunky. Myself I limit my shots to no more than 30 yards and haven't failed yet.



> NAP Bloodrunner.


Worst head I've ever had the displeasure of spending money on and their customer service is non-existent.

TH


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

*consistantly kill them* at 60-80 yards?

set up a target at 80 yds and get back to me on that one, i bet 95% of archers can't put 5 in a paper plate at 80yds


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

CoastalOutfitters said:


> *consistantly kill them* at 60-80 yards?
> 
> set up a target at 80 yds and get back to me on that one, i bet 95% of archers can't put 5 in a paper plate at 80yds


Not me bud, but I do know of a few personally that kill mule deer every year at that distance...they dont have cover like we do.

Why is it because you may not be able to do it, its hard for you to believe that some people can, without some "challenge" like you just posted?

Do some searches on archerytalk.com, the threads are there.

Sent from my mobile T&A viewer


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

sure "some people can", that's not my point

pointing out to a a bunch of newbies that you can drop a deer consistently at 60-80yds just because you saw it on tv is silly


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

CoastalOutfitters said:


> sure "some people can", that's not my point
> 
> pointing out to a a bunch of newbies that you can drop a deer consistently at 60-80yds just because you saw it on tv is silly


so then cut out every internet forum, TV show, big buck product off the shelves....ALL of those i just mentioned do the same thing in one way or another...i'm sorry if people can't think for themselves, but geez, where do you draw the line?

what about Fred Bear, should we cut out his books and stuff, you do know he took very long shots with traditional equipment and we both know how Mr. Bear is held to a very high standard.....heck, he even use to use poison tips back in the day.....


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

osoobsessed said:


> so then cut out every internet forum, TV show, big buck product off the shelves....ALL of those i just mentioned do the same thing in one way or another...i'm sorry if people can't think for themselves, but geez, where do you draw the line?
> 
> what about Fred Bear, should we cut out his books and stuff, you do know he took very long shots with traditional equipment and we both know how Mr. Bear is held to a very high standard.....heck, he even use to use poison tips back in the day.....


The fact is, someone relatively new to the sport came to this forum to ask about the effective range of a bow. Sure, many TV shows, internet forums, etc. show and/or even advocate long shots. But, as experienced archers that care about the sport and the animals we hunt, I think the responsible thing to do is to explain that those shots are not realistic/ethical for an inexperienced archer to take.

As far as Fred Bear taking very long shots....geez, he was Fred Bear. Nuff said.


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

TXPalerider said:


> The fact is, someone relatively new to the sport came to this forum to ask about the effective range of a bow. Sure, many TV shows, internet forums, etc. show and/or even advocate long shots. But, as experienced archers that care about the sport and the animals we hunt, I think the responsible thing to do is to explain that those shots are not realistic/ethical for an inexperienced archer to take.
> 
> As far as Fred Bear taking very long shots....geez, he was Fred Bear. Nuff said.


TXP, i'm not trying to be a doosh about anything, it was just the way it was worded is what got me started...



> no-one needs to shoot over 40 yards, I have bow hunted for way too long and too much can go wrong, deer jump the string, duck the arrow and so on.


so because one person decided it wasn't for them, nobody else should do it either? that's what i'm getting at when i said it was a pretty bold statement, then gave an example....

and where did newbie come into play, the OP didn't say whether he was or wasn't, was it just assumed?

that's what these forums are for, they are for discussion, yes, somebody new comes in and reads these, they will have BOTH sides of the arguments to base a decision on, hopefully they will have all facts.....not just someone's personal opinion on whether or not anyone else should or shouldn't shoot.

that's all i was trying to point out.

as for Fred Bear, sure it is him...but by today's standards about distance, ethics yada yada...i'm pretty sure he would get flamed for a lot of the shots he took with traditional equipment, heck, look at the heat Tred Barta gets from some of his past shots with a long bow...think about it...

PS: Chuck Adams is right there with those long shots as well. :biggrin:

:cheers:


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## Chunky (Oct 15, 2006)

When I post on these kinds of threads, I try to always use language like, it's my opinion, I think, or I feel, so as not to state that it is a fact.

As long as you are within the law, then it becomes a matter of ethics and personal standards. Things like shot distance, shot angle, bow poundage, type of broadhead, etc...

Bowhunting is a little different in that it has often come under attack from outside as well as within the hunting community. We wound to many, sit to close to the feeders, never kill anything, etc

Because of this, many including me, try and help new people to our sport understand that what you do can reflect on the community as a whole. We are under the microscope more than other forms of hunting.

This and the fact that I feel sick when I do wound something. Knowing that an animal had to suffer unnecessarily because I made a poor decision, and a valuable resourse was wasted. These things keep me within my limits.

I have read all the old books, and I know Bear and his comtemporaries took shots and did things that....well they probably shouldn't have. But that was a different time and place and who am I to judge.

Tred is an entertaining guy, but he will get on his soapbox about shot selection and in the next scene take a 30 yard shot at a running caribou. Not my idea of the perfect example.

I think on distance, with todays awesome equipment, there are a few guys that in perfect conditions (like indoors, with good light, and flat ground) can probably hit a paper plate at 80 nearly everytime. Hunting situations are almost never perfect.

How far will the wind push one of todays light carbon arrows? 

And even if the archer makes a perfect shot, the animal can easily take a step in the time the arrow is in the air and a poor hit result at that distance.

I know guys who wounding animals doesn't seem to bother them much....they say things like "oh well, coyotes got to eat too, or if you hunt that is just going to happen" and they get ready for the next shot. I just can't do that. Last year I shot a doe, and hit her a touch forward of perfect, I believe I only got one lung and she traveled about 250 yards doubling back the opposite direction...well, it took me a week to find her, ruined of course, but I couldn't let go until I had closure because I knew she was dead somewhere.

On a caribou hunt with a good friend of mine, he made a 50 yard shot. I sort of scolded him about it and told him he got lucky, and he stated he could do it all the time. So, I said show me. We set up a target at 50 and he hit it 3 out of 5. Pretty good shooting, but in my mind that is not high enough percentage to take. To me wounding 2 out of 5 is unacceptable for my personal standards.

So, if someone tells me you can shoot 80 at an animal, I will ask you to show me, I love to watch people who can shoot that well.


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

Chunky said:


> When I post on these kinds of threads, I try to always use language like, it's my opinion, I think, or I feel, so as not to state that it is a fact.
> 
> As long as you are within the law, then it becomes a matter of ethics and personal standards. Things like shot distance, shot angle, bow poundage, type of broadhead, etc...
> 
> ...


i agree with this....only reason i brought up the 60-80 stuff was because a few years ago, i got put in my place about those longer shots on another forum...i'll see if i can dig up the threads and videos that went with it...

i'm always willing to offer an opinion, whether right or wrong, it's healthy for discussion, but i will not say that "no one" should do something....that is not up to me to decide, everyone's standards, ethics, morals, shooting ability is different, if someone is reading this, then they have a full discussion with facts on both ends to make sound decisions...

as for the wounded deer....i still feel bad for losing my doe at 18 yards last season, i know i pulled my shot and hit too far forward (shoulder), i gonna make sure this does not happen this year.

i hope you fellas have a great season, i know i'm itching to say the least!

and sorry if i came across a little harsh earlier, i wasn't trying to be at all, guess i'm just use to arguing on another forum where the elite memebers think they are super hunters and everyone should hunt like them...


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## Chunky (Oct 15, 2006)

osoobsessed said:


> and sorry if i came across a little harsh earlier, i wasn't trying to be at all, guess i'm just use to arguing on another forum where the elite memebers think they are super hunters and everyone should hunt like them...


I had no problem with your posts and don't think you came across as harsh. I think healthy discussions are good, and we are not going to agree on everything. I have enjoyed coming back to this thread for the updates, because of the difference of opinions. I also hope everyone has a great season and all your arrows fly true, regardless of how long that flight is.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Chunky said:


> When I post on these kinds of threads, I try to always use language like, it's my opinion, I think, or I feel, so as not to state that it is a fact.
> 
> As long as you are within the law, then it becomes a matter of ethics and personal standards. Things like shot distance, shot angle, bow poundage, type of broadhead, etc...
> 
> ...


Man Chunk meister, you are on a roll on this one. I felt as though I were writing that post myself. My feelings exactly. Everyone should read the above post at least twice- ESPECIALLY NEWBIES !!

I just have one thing to say, in addtion to what else has been said, regarding the 80 yard shot thing. The one thing the boys on TV, who ALWAYS make those shots, is one little four letter word-- EDIT!!!

I'm sure many of you have read some of my rants on head shots and neck shots with rifles. The one question I always ask those proponents is: how far does your bullet move laterally on a 150 yard shot with a 90 degree 15 knot crosswind?? If you can't answer that question, you have no business taking that shot.

I would venture to say there is not an archer reading this, or that any of you know,who has any idea how much lateral movement their arrow has on an 80 yard shot, with even just a 10 knot crosswind. Nor do they have any parameters with which to even estimate wind speed.

We owe our animals more than that. They are getting too few. The newfoundland caribou are almost extinct. That used to be one of the highest success ratio, lowest price big game hunt we could take. No longer. Supply demand has taken over. Less supply= higher price for the hunt.

As Chunky says-- all of this is in my opinion.


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

2 inches what i win. 

to get technical, that would be 1.5moa or almost 2 inches

now what i win?


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

effictive range and ethical range are different. Put your target on the hood of your truck and the range you will practice as it likely your ethical range. a lot of people shoot deer at long range but a lot of things can happen. I have shot hogs at long range which are tougher than deer but deer have quicker reflexes. depends on the conditions. Try to shoot a blackbuck at 60 yards and you might get lucky to hit him in the opposite shoulder as he spins.....


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

sgrem said:


> effictive range and ethical range are different. Put your target on the hood of your truck and the range you will practice as it likely your ethical range. a lot of people shoot deer at long range but a lot of things can happen. I have shot hogs at long range which are tougher than deer but deer have quicker reflexes. depends on the conditions. Try to shoot a blackbuck at 60 yards and you might get lucky to hit him in the opposite shoulder as he spins.....


haha...going from a large target to a blackbuck...i swear them critters can do the matrix when the arrow releases at 20 yards! :biggrin:


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

osoobsessed said:


> 2 inches what i win.
> 
> to get technical, that would be 1.5moa or almost 2 inches
> 
> now what i win?


Ok OSO, first of all an MOA covers less than one inch at 80 yards than it does at 100. So to get really technical if 1.5 moa covers approx 1.5" at 100 yards, it will only cover 1.2" at 80 yards: 1.5 X .8= 1.2" at 80 yards.

So how did you calculate that. I'm not aware of any ballistic program to do that. The inputs necessary to calculate that wind movement are:

I know you can have the weight of the projectile-- 400 gr or whatever.
You can have the "muzzle velocity"-- 300 fps or whatever
You can plug in the range to target- 80 yards
You can plug in the direction and speed of the wind- 10 knots 90 degrees
But how do you plug in the BC of the projectile? What is the BC of a 29" long 400 gr carbon arrow with fletching, wraps, broadhead/field point, etc. ??

How fast do you think that arrow is moving at 80 yards? If you are that good a shot you should be able to put your chrono out there at 80 yards, shoot through it, and find out that speed.

I actually just plugged into my software program a 45-70 405 grain bullet (about the arrow weight), at 830 fps (that's as low as it would go- program would not go down to 300 fps) shooting at 75 yards (close to 80) with a 10 knot 90 degree crosswind. the lateral movement of that bullet is 1.3 inches. That's pretty close to your arrow displacement of 1.2" Are you telling me that an arrow starting out at 300 fps will have the same lateral movement as an equal weight bullet starting out at 830 fps. HMMM

that's starting out at 830 fps and ending at the target at 786 fps .28 seconds later

An arrow starting at 300 fps, and ending up at "don't know", but slower would certainly take more that .28 seconds to go 80 yards, would have the wind acting on it much longer than the 45-70 bullet, and would most probably move significantly more than 1.3 inches. That's not even considering the significantly more area for the wind to blow on- shaft, fletching, long length, etc.

Regardless, be honest, were you able to come up with that answer off the top of your head, i.e. be able to do that in the field under hunting conditions, or did you go to your computer program like I did, which would probably not be in our hunting packs??

Plus add whatever the lateral movement actually is, to whatever group size you are consistently able to shoot at 80 yards, and I bet that size is significantly larger than the kill zone of the animal. AND THAT'S IF STAYS PERFECTLY STILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope to learn something here.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Well I had a lot to say but Chunky sort of covered everything...over achiever. 

When TXPalerider got me back into bow hunting I had never hunted with a compound bow. My bow for years was a Browning Nomad 50# recurve and I killed a lot of deer with it. I shot a doe one evening, bad shot and I swear it screamed like a woman, in fact I wondered if I had over shot and actually hit someone with the arrow. It unnerved me completely as I had never experienced a deer make that sound before.

I didn't find the doe until the next day and felt shame as I recovered my arrow with my name and address written on it and I quit bow hunting. 

Now I can't wait for bow season and I've not lost a deer since I took up the sport again. But I limit myself. I practice at 15, 25 and 30 yards and only have to use one pin and I have not let fly further than that. But I also practice at 40 yards with a second pin and if a P&Y happens to stand still long enough for me to slow my heart beat and for the shakes to stop I might take that shot.

I've seen some really good bucks at 50 yards and beyond and never thought about trying to stick one.

Dirty Harry was right when he said that "A man has got to know his limitations". If you don't know yours, you just simply haven't screwed up yet.

TH


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

Jammer, I love your posts, bit good god man, you aint the only person that shoots.

I have 3 different ballistics programs on my phone which is in my hunting pack, they are also what I use when shooting long distance. All 3 connect to gps position to give current weather patterns for my area.

I plugged in the data you gave for the headshot thingy and all 3 gave me 1.75moa adjust or dope for my lateral or "windage".....so far they have not been wrong while im shooting my rifle which the programs are setup with all of my load data and MV, since we do have a chrono to get it with. These are saved and all I do is make data adjustments when needed.

Nobody said anything about the bow, you gave a distance problem and said if you cant answer that, you shouldnt be taking those shots....i gave you a dope solution for my setup which I am confident in.

I dont know if.im reading a "tone" in your posts or you just have to be right 100% of the time. I dont have anything to prove, I just offered a solution to your example.

Anyway, im either fishing or hunting this weekend, you have a good one, you win, bud....im just gonna agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Sent from my mobile T&A viewer


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

osoobsessed said:


> Jammer, I love your posts, bit good god man, you aint the only person that shoots.
> 
> I have 3 different ballistics programs on my phone which is in my hunting pack, they are also what I use when shooting long distance. All 3 connect to gps position to give current weather patterns for my area.
> 
> ...


No No Oso, No tone. I didn't realize you were answering the rifle head shot statement. The whole thread is on effective range for a BOW. So I thought you were answering my question about ARROW drift on that 80 yard shot.

Total misunderstanding. Don't have to be right 100% of the time, because all you have to do is be wrong ONCE to ruin that record, and I've been wrong a WHOLE LOT MORE OFTEN THAN JUST ONCE.

Good on ya for carrying your ballistics programs with you when you hunt. So do I. I actually have one that looks like a watch that I wear on my wrist. But I be you would agree with me that you and I are the 5%, not the 95% on that subject.

So you got the right answer to the wrong question. What do you win?? I'll happily take you to lunch if you like. PM me. I'd like to met you.

However back to the real question I was looking for, I'll bet there is no one on this thread who can calculate the lateral movement of an ARROW on that 80 yard shot, with a 10 knot crosswind, but many will, nevertheless, take the shot in the field. I was just trying to find out how you calculated that arrow movement. I think it would be an incredibly detailed physics problem: deceleration, drag, etc.

Good thread,


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## Chunky (Oct 15, 2006)

Trouthunter said:


> Well I had a lot to say but Chunky sort of covered everything...over achiever.
> 
> TH


Hehe, well, thanks for the compliment, but my vast knowledge comes from my many years of screwing up, trial and error (mostly error), and paying attention to others who know what they are talking about.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but who else has; shot a feeder, shot himself(not easy with bow and arrow), fallen from a tri-pod, put broadheads in several limbs of my body, tested their survival gear (lost in the mountains), locked himself to a tree stand in Kansas, and the list just goes on and on.....


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

well look here, i go away for a few days and you guys just go on without me. Well i've decided to set my pins up at 20 30 40 50 60 but the 40 through 60 pins will only be for practice. I am not going to take a shot at more than 30yds. Also i'm sold on the idea of a fixed 2 blade. I shot the rage 2 blade last year but always felt a little uneasy about the way the blades would sometimes slip out of the o ring. Maybe i will or maybe I won't that will be a game time decision. but I am sold on the 2 blade. maybe i'll use the blade runner for hog hunting. I still consider myself a newbie since this is only my second year of using a bow. So there is much to learn. I really do appreciate all the help. O and 80yrds seems a big long for the avg Joe. I'm sure it can be done, but it's not for me.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

No need for more than 1 pin, period.... with todays bows there should be only an inch or 2 difference in 15 and 35yrds, if you use the 20yrd pin. I have 1 pin set at 25 yrds, its good from CLOSE to 30 useing a little 'Kentucky windage' and common sense. I missed the first deer I shot at due to too many pins, that was 31yrs and a lot of animals ago....WW


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

THE JAMMER said:


> No No Oso, No tone. I didn't realize you were answering the rifle head shot statement. The whole thread is on effective range for a BOW. So I thought you were answering my question about ARROW drift on that 80 yard shot.
> 
> Total misunderstanding. Don't have to be right 100% of the time, because all you have to do is be wrong ONCE to ruin that record, and I've been wrong a WHOLE LOT MORE OFTEN THAN JUST ONCE.
> 
> ...


sorry for just getting back to this, was kind of a crazy weekend, then the office is just nasty on monday mornings. 

i agree that we are a small percentage of folks that shoot and have their data with them, i see it all the time at the ranch i work on...people want to shoot long distance, but don't have any type of chart for their gear....they usually freak when they see me open my app on my phone, dial in and nail a 800 yard gong cold bore....it's fun! :biggrin:

would love to meet you one of these days, couple of brewskis or lunch...i had a feeling i might have been reading your posts a little wrong and for that i apologize....

as for the long distance bow shots, not for me, but others do it....i limit myself to 25 yards maybe 30 if i'm feeling confident...each person should know and stay between their personal limitations, i believe it makes us all better sportsman and what not...

as for the other post by chunky i believe....yes, i thought we were supposed to shoot them pesky deer feeder legs! :biggrin:


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

*osoobsessed* what's the name of that app that you got on your phone?


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

extgreen said:


> *osoobsessed* what's the name of that app that you got on your phone?


i use 3 different apps:

Shooter (droid and iphone)
Strelok (droid and iphone)
Let Fly Ballistics (iphone only)

i use let fly when my shooting partner is with me, we cross reference my data with his data when he's spotting and visa versa....so far, we good to go. :biggrin:


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

To the OP, I took a bow with similar speed as yours to Colorado and got a pass through shot on a bull elk at 45yrds with Muzzy Phantom cut on contact braodheads... Welcome to the brotherhood and post up your kills....Walker


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## WRsteveX (Sep 6, 2012)

I've also had very bad experiences with the bloodrunner. 

I think 40yds is really about max. My personal max is 30. I just won't shoot further than that. Not at deer. I'll hail Mary one at a hog or varmint. I have pins and am confident to 60yds. But there's just too many things that can go wrong. Hell, I had a syca doe duck an arrow at 22yds. And I hit a cat at 63.


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

ya i think i'll go with the philosophy of Practice long and shoot short.


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## Swampus (Sep 1, 2005)

20-35yds for me--I like um' 2 b close--more funner!

Must say I liked the one of the target in front of the truck thing will make ya think.........


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Oso, I have the Let Fly program on my I phone also. I like that one. It's very easy.


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

THE JAMMER said:


> Oso, I have the Let Fly program on my I phone also. I like that one. It's very easy.


my phone is droid, so no let fly yet, the developer assures me it will be soon though. :biggrin:

check out Strelok and Shooter....i like how they automaically pick up your position via GPS and calculate everything for you...


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## Bob Keyes (Mar 16, 2011)

Time for me to stick my oar in here, my effective range is 70m. The reason I can say this is because of the situation I was hunting in at the time, I was hunting in NM for elk and mule deer. One of the more important factors in determing this is what kind of shot you will be presented with, this type of shot is what I could expect and this is what I practiced for. I shot twice a week at the JOAD league shooting the 70m and 90m FITA targets with a hunting bow 74# draw with pins not a Sure-Loc and a scope averaging 80 to 100 shots a session with my avarage group of 5 arrows being 4-6"at either range, I also shot my hunting arrows and had my broadheads tuned to shoot with my field points, I know this because I shot broadheads when no one was not looking because I HAD to know where they really hit. During that time I only had 2 shots that mattered, shots that had fur not paper on the far side of the pin. An elk at 11 yards head on and a broadside mule deer buck at 27 yards both ranged. My longest bloodtrail was for the buck, it was about 125 yards, the elk dropped in his tracks like I had hit him with Thor's hammer. That was hunting, I was perpared for and confident out to 70m however. When I have a chance to hunt again in Texas I will prepare the same way and have the same confidence YMMV

Bob


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

well if your ever in east texas let me know, i'd love to see you take that shot. But realistically would that even be necessary for white tails in east texas?


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

That's all well and good Mr. Keyes, but unfortunately all of that great practice (admirable by the way) goes right out the window if there is wind blowing, or that elk decides to eat a different blade of grass as you release.


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

Bob Keyes said:


> Time for me to stick my oar in here, my effective range is 70m. The reason I can say this is because of the situation I was hunting in at the time, I was hunting in NM for elk and mule deer. One of the more important factors in determing this is what kind of shot you will be presented with, this type of shot is what I could expect and this is what I practiced for. I shot twice a week at the JOAD league shooting the 70m and 90m FITA targets with a hunting bow 74# draw with pins not a Sure-Loc and a scope averaging 80 to 100 shots a session with my avarage group of 5 arrows being 4-6"at either range, I also shot my hunting arrows and had my broadheads tuned to shoot with my field points, I know this because I shot broadheads when no one was not looking because I HAD to know where they really hit. During that time I only had 2 shots that mattered, shots that had fur not paper on the far side of the pin. An elk at 11 yards head on and a broadside mule deer buck at 27 yards both ranged. My longest bloodtrail was for the buck, it was about 125 yards, the elk dropped in his tracks like I had hit him with Thor's hammer. That was hunting, I was perpared for and confident out to 70m however. When I have a chance to hunt again in Texas I will prepare the same way and have the same confidence YMMV
> 
> Bob


so how can you be that accurate with that long of a distance, basically the length of a football field? and how many pins do you have on your sight?


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

extgreen said:


> so how can you be that accurate with that long of a distance, basically the length of a football field? and how many pins do you have on your sight?


Repetition.

I shot 100 yards over our tank for fun last year (i only pull 57 pounds) but i wanted to try at a 3d target for fun. After a few shots that were short, i then started aiming with my level bubble and also picked a spot to aim for above the target... After a good hour, i was no longer swimming for my arrows and actually had a decent group on the rear end of the target. 

Sent from my mobile T&A viewer


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

Haven't you heard to never bull chit a bull chitter 


osoobsessed said:


> Repetition.
> 
> I shot 100 yards over our tank for fun last year (i only pull 57 pounds) but i wanted to try at a 3d target for fun. After a few shots that were short, i then started aiming with my level bubble and also picked a spot to aim for above the target... After a good hour, i was no longer swimming for my arrows and actually had a decent group on the rear end of the target.
> 
> Sent from my mobile T&A viewer


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## Chunky (Oct 15, 2006)

I am not going to convince everyone that my way is right and certainly nobody is ever going to persuade me that 100 yard shots are acceptable. But that's ok. These boards are for opinions and every one can have and share theirs. Hunters trying to find their way can take it all in and find their own path

I am glad this has stayed civil, as this is one of the subjects. Like high fence, baiting, etc. That often deteriorates. 

For the record I don't encourage frontal shots in most cases either. I going elk hunting, play nice while I'm gone


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

I totally agree with you chunky, I think how you hunt is the same as how you live. If you want to live on the outer edge, lol then go ahead. I guess I'm a conservative at heart. I'll stay under 35 thanks.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Chunky said:


> For the record I don't encourage frontal shots in most cases either.


CORRECT, if ya can't go in n out ya need not shoot....WW


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

Rack Ranch said:


> Haven't you heard to never bull chit a bull chitter


I never said the groups were "passing", i was just happy to finally hit the target and not go swim for my arrows (for me at 100 yards, the arrows hitting the target were a group) . There were 3 other guys shooting as well, no bs, i got some pics somewhere if need be. 

Sent from my mobile T&A viewer


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

I got ya, at that range a good grouping would be the target. i'm sure we could all manage the same shot if we tried. lol all it would take is a few dozen arrows and a good sunday afternoon.


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## Bowhntr (Aug 7, 2006)

A cut-on-contact fixed blade will deliver more energy than a mechanical usually but your bow needs to be tuned very well to ensure fixed blade accuracy at longer distances. But why would you risk a much longer shot at a deer beyond 40yds??? be practical and lethal out to 30-40 yards...ALL my deer were killed within 40 yards and longest was my elk in Colorado at 55yd open field
just my POV


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

so Bowhntr what would you do to get your bow tuned. i've done the paper tune, and a few other things. but i'd like your take.


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

extgreen said:


> so Bowhntr what would you do to get your bow tuned. i've done the paper tune, and a few other things. but i'd like your take.


If your bow is paper tuned and cutting "perfect" holes, there really isnt much more other than form and torque upon release.

Have you tried walk back tuning?

Sent from my mobile T&A viewer


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

ya i did that last week. i was wondering how vital it was to no vain tune your arrows


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

extgreen said:


> ya i did that last week. i was wondering how vital it was to no vain tune your arrows


What?? you talking about ppr tune with no vains(don't matter), or tuning your arrows to your BHs(VERY IMPORTANT) ??....WW


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

wet dreams said:


> What?? you talking about ppr tune with no vains(don't matter), or tuning your arrows to your BHs(VERY IMPORTANT) ??....WW


i'm kind of scratching my head as well, maybe just a miscommunication?

no vane tune is really not that vital


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## extgreen (Oct 26, 2011)

sorry for the confusion. I was referring to a video that i saw on youtube about paper tuning without veins on your arrows. Sorry for the confussion. and what is tuning to your BH?


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