# Livingston hybrids



## LoneStarFish (Jul 13, 2010)

Fifteen years ago (or so) I never really heard about anyone catching hybrids, asked my grandpa about it and he told me it was really rare to hear about one being caught. He has been on the lake since the late 70’s early 80’s.
Recently they seem to be plentiful, Hell I was on the Meadow Lark email chain from the 2010’s about targeting striped (just went back and looked at it, good info!) and hybrids were never really mentioned.
What has been the change? Did they start stocking them?

JCM


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

No, they did not start stocking hybrids at Lake Livingston, and they will not stock them so long as they use LL for their striper brood fish. However, hybrids are stocked in lakes upstream of LL that are in the Trinity River watershed, and some make their way downstream. In large water releases from the upstream lakes, many make their way down. 



Also, there is probably or at least possibly some hybrid reproduction going on in the river above LL, even though not a great number. I say not a great number because I think the biologists know their stuff, and they say it doesn't happen easily.


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## LoneStarFish (Jul 13, 2010)

Interesting they have seemed to show up over the past couple years. Wonder when TPW started stocking them upstream?
Am I correct in saying that there seem to be quite a bit more now than ever before?


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## Mattsfishin (Aug 23, 2009)

They started stocking Richland chambers in 1996 with Palmettos and stocked it almost every year since then. They stocked sunshine in 2013 and 2014 There also. That is one of the lakes that feed into the Trinity river and during a high release these fish will get into the river and end up in Lake Livingston. This is one of the reasons why they are showing up in Livingston. I forgot to mention the palmetto is from striper eggs and the sunshine is from whitebass eggs. They say they are the same. With so many lakes up the Trinity river watershed with hybrid stockings we will continue to see hybrids for a while in Livingston along with the few that mother nature put-on the watershed.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

I have been studying the Texas striper and hybrid programs for years. I read every thing TP&W puts out.
In fact I think I am as close to a self appointed expert that we have on the board. LOL
What Matt and Donald said is all very true.
The only thing I might disagree is the fact that the Sunshine and Palmetto are not the same. 
The Sunshine is no more than a white bass on steroids.
They grow faster, run in large schools like whites and have the shorter life span than the Palmetto bass.
The hybrids in Livingston are both types. If you talk to fellows that fish a lot like Loy and the Johnnies they will tell you that there are some hybrids in the lake that are different from the others. I know Loy has had his butt handed to him by some huge hybrids.
The Sunshine is a deeper body harder fighting fish that the Palmetto or striper. They get much bigger much faster.
Some facts I have gathered over the years.
TP&W does a net survey in Livingston every three to four years. Since the survey started two decades they have never caught a striper over 30 inches.
TP&W harvest striper brood fish from the Livingston tail race in the first week of April.
They have never caught a fish over six year of age. Some a little over 30 inches but very young for a fish that normally lives twenty five years in other northern reservoirs.
Starting a few years back TP&W started using radioactive markers in the ear bones of the stripers stocked in Livingston. In recent years they have harvested striper in the tailrace with out the mark indicating that some natural spawning is occurring.
Most likely in the tail race since the stripers found at the Lock n Dam at Crockett are normally males. Sexually mature striper females have already left the lake the year before.
About 8 to 10 years ago the TP&W did a migratory study of alligator gar in the lower Trinity. Thet places sensors in numerous site on the river from US 59 to Wallisville. They caught and tagged gar in a dozen places in the river.
The study was a bust. They found the gar were home bodies that stayed in there home pools.
The guys ay Kerrville decided to tag fifty striper below Livingston before removing the sensors.
They were amazed. The stripers run the river like greyhounds. They had records of single fish that went from Livingston to Wallisville and back in less than 10 days.
Livingston is the only lake on the Trinity that gets Stripers. All of the Dallas area lakes get Palmetto bass.
I had not kept up on my homework so I was surprised to see that TP&W put sunshine bass in RC lake.
OK uses sunshine bass. Even in the small lakes in western OK they grow huge. When I fished Foss Lake almost daily a 15 pound hybrid was normal. It took a twenty pounder to get an uh or ah at the marina.
The state record from Lake Altus in wester OK is over 29 pounds. The hybrid had destroyed the trout and smallmouth fishing in Altus. They stop stocking them but a drastic algae bloom killed all of the lake so that hybrid fishery is gone forever. OK wildlife now limits the lakes that they stock hybrid because they grow so big they are harmful to some lakes with other fisheries. They love trout and smallmouth bass.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

I should add that Larry, our own Meadowlark, did lots of data gathering for the biologist. He collected and cataloged many ear bones and fish weight/lengths. His work gave the biologist a world of info they would have taken months to do on their own.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

I've been reading a lot too recently about the stocking of Texas lakes. It started out trying to find out more about the Hybrid I caught last month.

I also remembered my mom caught a Walleye in Lake Somerville. I ask my dad about it, but he said no it must have been when we were on vacation up north. But I recalled it being in my dad's little roof top aluminum boat. We never took it out of state.

Well if you look on TP&W "Lakes" page they stocked Somerville with Walleye a for a few years after they built the lake!


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Pretty tricky to find on my phone, but here is a link to the stocking history for Somerville; 
https://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0680


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Here is a link to all texas lakes;
https://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/recreational/lakes/lakelist.phtml


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## denimdeerslayer (Feb 23, 2012)

Thanks for all the good info guys.


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## SeaOx 230C (Aug 12, 2005)

I fish mostly below the Lake Livingston dam and in the Trinity River down stream, and have done so for many years.


Used to be we would catch pure stripers and the occasional fish that looked like a striper and white bass. It would be a bit more elongated than a white, but not as slender as Striper. The color is a bit duller too, less bright white to the belly and less silvery. Kind of darker looking.


After the big big floods of recent years I am catching a cross that is shaped and colored like a big mean white bass but with more of the broken lines.


I think the first are natural hybrids and the later are stocked hybrids that came from upstream during the floods. 


The largest Stripers I have seen did not come from the Lake or below the dam. They came from quite a ways down river. The biggest was 35".


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## charlie23 (Jan 11, 2005)

which taste better, hybrid or striper?


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## trapperjon (May 26, 2014)

Striper tastes much better than hybrids in my opinion 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## fishinganimal (Mar 30, 2006)

Agree with trapperjon^^^


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

The Filipino does them in sweet/sour sauce with lots of pineapple and fresh veggies.
She could make a pine 2 X 4 taste good.


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## Tails-Up (Mar 4, 2017)

Livingston got stocked with Richland Chambers hybrids during the floods of the last 3 years. Thats the simple answer to your question.


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## wwind3 (Sep 30, 2009)

Sunbeam said:


> The Filipino does them in sweet/sour sauce with lots of pineapple and fresh veggies.
> She could make a pine 2 X 4 taste good.


LOL!


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## wwind3 (Sep 30, 2009)

Good posts guys!


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## LoneStarFish (Jul 13, 2010)

Great response! These are the kind of threads I love!

It’s interesting very few Striper at/over 30” are ever caught, I see the record is 31.5” from 1986.

Wonder if the Biologist have a theory why the Stripers don’t grow much bigger or live longer than six years in Livingston? Is Livingston the only lake that has this anomaly?

Let’s hear y’all theory? Know you have some thoughts on it.


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## LoneStarFish (Jul 13, 2010)

Weight= 31.5
Length= 37”
Looked at the wrong colum.

Does this Weight and Lenght look odd? Almost a lb an inch??


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

LoneStarFish said:


> Itâ€™s interesting very few Striper at/over 30â€ are ever caught, I see the record is 31.5â€ from 1986.
> 
> Wonder if the Biologist have a theory why the Stripers donâ€™t grow much bigger or live longer than six years in Livingston? Is Livingston the only lake that has this anomaly?
> 
> Letâ€™s hear yâ€™all theory? Know you have some thoughts on it.


My theory is that the water depth isn't deep enough and the temperature gets too warm for the fish to live as long as they should in LL. Heck, this time of year catch and release won't work for stripers in LL, they will die.

I personally asked a TPWD biologist (during their annual brood fish collection in April years ago) why Texoma wasn't used instead of Livingston for their brood stock. He replied they would love to but that legally Oklahoma owns all the river below the dam instead of just to the middle.

I think the only other possibility for the striper brood fish in Texas would be Whitney, but I don't know what the TP&WD say about it. It is possible that golden alga-related fish kills in the Brazos make the TP&WD not want to use Whitney, but I don't know.


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## juror81 (Jul 21, 2011)

You're a very blessed man Sunbeam

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## denimdeerslayer (Feb 23, 2012)

I wonder if any of the one below the d a m n ever head down into the bay?


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

LoneStarFish said:


> Weight= 31.5
> Length= 37â€
> Looked at the wrong colum.
> 
> Does this Weight and Lenght look odd? Almost a lb an inch??


Yes. Honestly, I always suspected that record. A 37 inch striped bass would average 21 pounds and would be 11 years old according to standard National data. I've caught stripers which generally fit that profile and fish over 40 inches which weigh over 30 pounds...but never have seen one at 37 inches that was over 30 pounds.

The really suspicious part of that record for Livingston is the 37 inches itself. That would require a fish 11 years old in the standard data and there has never been a striper taken below the dam older than 6 years old, according to Parks and Wildlife.

Even allowing for rapid growth rates, it is difficult(maybe impossible) to get to a 37 inch striper in 6 years. I've caught 20 pound stripers below the dam and caught others in the 15 to 20 pound range and all fit the National profile data of length vs weight with some above average on weight depending on time of year.

There is an artesian spring right below the shelf in a certain spot below the dam that does produce relatively cool oxygenated water year around. It seems plausible that a big striper could hole up in that spot and last longer than the 6 year barrier but 11 years seems not likely.

Most of the questions you posted on spawning were answered in the study that Nate Smith published in March 18 2013. In his study entitled, "Striped Bass Stocking Evaluation of Lake Livingston and Lake Livingston Tailrace", Nate provided the conclusive data(which was based on fish yours truly provided) that stripers do spawn on Livingston both above and below the dam.

For the upper Lake part of the study, T,P,W inoculated the YOY with markers in 2007, 2008, and 2009 I believe. These markers were actually a die which was visible on the otoliths of the harvested fish. One mark for one year, two marks for another year, etc. No mark would indicate a natural spawn.

I provided 80 some stripers that I caught from the lake to the study ranging in size from 18 inches up to 29 inches over the course of spring and early summer. The biologists harvested the otoliths and looked for marks. Nearly 50% of the fish I provided did not have any marks...not one or two or any.

Based on these statistically significant results, the conclusion was reached that yes indeed stripers are spawning in Livingston...at possibly fairly high rates under certain conditions.

You can probably get that study off the 'net...or I could e-mail you one but it is rather lengthy. I've been doing other things since then and don't know what additional studies they may have done, if any.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

LoneStarFish said:


> Weight= 31.5
> Length= 37â€
> Looked at the wrong colum.
> 
> Does this Weight and Lenght look odd? Almost a lb an inch??


Yes. Honestly, I always suspected that record. A 37 inch striped bass would average 21 pounds and would be 11 years old according to standard National data. I've caught stripers which generally fit that profile and fish over 40 inches which weigh over 30 pounds...but never have seen one at 37 inches that was over 30 pounds.

The really suspicious part of that record for Livingston is the 37 inches itself. That would require a fish 11 years old in the standard data and there has never been a striper taken below the dam older than 6 years old, according to Parks and Wildlife.

Even allowing for rapid growth rates, it is difficult(maybe impossible) to get to a 37 inch striper in 6 years. I've caught 20 pound stripers below the dam and caught others in the 15 to 20 pound range and all fit the National profile data of length vs weight with some above average on weight depending on time of year.

There is an artesian spring right below the shelf in a certain spot below the dam that does produce relatively cool oxygenated water year around. It seems plausible that a big striper could hole up in that spot and last longer than the 6 year barrier but 11 years seems not likely.

Most of the questions you posted on spawning were answered in the study that Nate Smith published in March 18 2013. In his study entitled, "Striped Bass Stocking Evaluation of Lake Livingston and Lake Livingston Tailrace", Nate provided the conclusive data(which was based on fish yours truly provided) that stripers do spawn on Livingston both above and below the dam.

For the upper Lake part of the study, T,P,W inoculated the YOY with markers in 2007, 2008, and 2009 I believe. These markers were actually a die which was visible on the otoliths of the harvested fish. One mark for one year, two marks for another year, etc. No mark would indicate a natural spawn.

I provided 80 some stripers that I caught from the lake to the study ranging in size from 18 inches up to 29 inches over the course of spring and early summer. The biologists harvested the otoliths and looked for marks. Nearly 50% of the fish I provided did not have any marks...not one or two or any.

Based on these statistically significant results, the conclusion was reached that yes indeed stripers are spawning in Livingston...at possibly fairly high rates under certain conditions.

You can probably get that study off the 'net...or I could e-mail you one but it is rather lengthy. I've been doing other things since then and don't know what additional studies they may have done, if any.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

The first few year after the initial stocking in 1974 the fingerling were purchased from out of state hatcheries. The TP&W hatcheries did not get geared up for years after the program started.
At first the Texas hatchery broodstock came from Texoma. But due to a vicious fight over the salt creeks on the upper Red River, Oklahoma got mad and cut Texas off from harvesting stripers below Texoma.
So their only source was Livingston.
The problem is after a few years ever striper they hatch is either a brother, sister or first cousin. Our stipers are so inbrid they could play a banjo, (that's a hillbilly joke)
That limits their growth rate. Those first fingerling that the record came from were not inbrid. Arkansas has numerous lakes to gather brood fish. Texas has one.
But the biggest growth inhibitor is the hot water.
Striper thrive in water below 72 degrees. Wild fish never see water over 60 F.
The deep lake that have record fish are also cold.
A cold blood fish uses calories based on its body heat. Warmer the water the more food it needs. I remember one of the biologist saying the Livingston stripers are like a nuclear recactor. Constantly burning fuel to create energy just to be able to get more fuel.
They just do not gain the size to age ratio that cool water fish obtain.
They do better in the tailrace but still too warm. So we get a stunted fish that is dying of malnutrition most of its life. And unlike wild northern fish they can't survive well in the hot water of Trinity Bay or the Gulf. There was once a wild populatin of wild stripers that used the Gulf rivers as spawning grounds. They have been gone for nearly a century.
The hybrids seem to have the same problem. As I said before hybrids that live in Oklahoma lakes cool enough to sustain year round trout and walleyes grow huge hybrids.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

There is another possibility for the 37 inch fish which I forgot to mention. 

Many years ago, the Striped Bass was native to our waters in the Gulf. In fact, there was a substantial commercial fishery based on striped bass. This was documented as a specific subspecies of striped bass . It hasn't been prominent in our waters since the 50's I believe...and attempts at re-establishment in the 90's failed miserably. I have caught stripers in the past at the old H,L, & P spillway on Trinity Bay. 

Some biologists believe that original strain of striped bass still MAY exist in the Trinity River stripers. Because of that, they take great care not to do anything which might further jeopardize that possibility...such as introducing hybrids.

Back to the 37 inch fish...although I've always heard that fish came from below the dam, it could have possibly been a river fish from that strain of Gulf stripers and as such could possibly have reached an age more than the "stockers". Seems possible...if not likely.


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## Mattsfishin (Aug 23, 2009)

It's been almost 30 years since I caught a striper over 20 lbs and it was a couple miles downstream below the dam. When they were working on the wier and had the shoot open you could catch 12 to 15 lb stripers at the shoot. 
I would rather have whites over stripers or hybrids to eat. I usually give the hybrids away.
The big hybrids came out to play this morning on Livingston.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Sunbeam said:


> ... Wild fish *(of today) *never see water over 60 F.
> ....


 Fixed it for you.

Clearly, the native strain of striped bass that was commercially fished in Texas waters all the way down to Corpus years ago saw water temps way over 60 deg.

I agree with biologists who still hold out hope and act accordingly that the DNA of those Gulf striped bass may still exist in some river fish today. Its worth protecting, IMO, for that possibility.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

What a great bunch of reading. Thanks for taking the time to post the info.


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## wwind3 (Sep 30, 2009)

Wonder with the natural spawns occurring in the lake-do you think the newer generations of the fish will adapt better to the lake conditions--ie--the warmer shallower waters? I would think from an evolutionary aspect they would adapt.


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## Dirt Daddy (Sep 11, 2004)

Great Read thank you men


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

The same week mr. Hughes caught the record I fished below the dam three days.
The average size that week was off the chain.
One of the days I took a friend who is a good fisherman, but did not have the casting skills to use a long rod.
I would cast and we took turns. 
On my first cast for him I sent it up there where the action was wild with feeding stripers and fleeing bait.
He ripped the cork/pearl white fluttertail once and a striper smacked it. This was the east side of the cable that at the time was 190 yards away, the west side was 2020.
It was the biggest striper I had ever seen even at that distance it was huge.
And greyhounding like a tarpon in about 4â€™ of water.
It walked the top west to the middle of the gates then sounded and swam almost to the last gate. Completely out of control it thrashed back and forth the basin for a long time.
All the other anglers reeled in to get out of the way and watch.
My friend Ron was tiring badly I had to urge him on, but he got the fish coming our way finally.
He got it halfway back from the cable three times and it ran back to the rocks.
Ron was going to be at the end of his fight soon when the fish came past the halfway mark and he saw he had a chance.
Digging deep he cranked hard as the fish was still 50 yards away and heading down stream. We could not let that happen even though the fish had rolled on itâ€™s side exhausted. I had a good look as it got closer and calculated 35# .
I had to stuff the facts that it was a striper that big even a fish that big and determine how to land it.
The only net was a small crappie size net.
Itâ€™s head would not fit in it. No matter the moment of truth was there and I leaned out a bit and Ron seemed to take that as a cue to lower the rod or he just could not hold it up anymore.
The long and intense fight had worn a large hole around the hook and the slight lapse in forward pressure let the hook fall out of its mouth and it floated on top ten yards away then downstream and slowly it righted and swam away.
Ron and did not speak again for six months and we never really got past it. The hardest loss of a Fish ever fir each of us.
The river gets up at times and as it falls from a flood big rafts of finger mullet can be seen with large stripers hounding them.
Three years ago Trapperjon and I were headed towards the cable when he saw a monster striper swimming just under a raft of finger mullet.
He could not describe how big it was, because it was so much larger than any he had seen before.
I didnâ€™t doubt him, but later that day a man with a family in a pontoon boat on the west side started hollering as he pointed to a raft of mullet in front of the Boat that there was a huge striper.
They said something and he said no you donâ€™t understand how big it is.
I like to believe there are gulf strain stripers still in the water.
The mix of saltwater fish to come up to the dam has decreased a lot over the years as drought and water usage have lessened the flow between floods.
Flounder, river herring, blue crab,ballyhoo and small shrimp used to be common at times if even medium flow.
Changes made at the Wallisville lock have appeared to have hindered these fish from making that journey.
I have not seen river herring in many years and they were a favorite striper food fish.
The gulf coast rivers where Stripers can make a spawning run of 80 miles or more are gone expect for the Trinity which barely makes the mark.

Trinity river fish in general can weigh a lot more than most length to weigh ratios determine. Trinity river stripers can also look like a snake when the water gets low and hot. The striper Ron fought was large in every measure and the width between its eyes was astounding something both Trapperjon and the other man said about the Fish they saw three years ago.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

I just realized something that may help in the future. The new generators being installed at the LL dam are a type that actually oxygenate the water, I mean over and above the tumbling down a spillway. There have been cases where oxygenating generators at dams have enabled stripers to get older/bigger. We will see if that changes anything.


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## SeaOx 230C (Aug 12, 2005)

Loy I fished those mullet a few years back too. That was the first big rafts of them I had seen in a long time. I caught several 28" and 29" fish that summer under the mullet. The water was clean and green, good strong flow for an extended period an it was almost like the old days down there.

Some one asked if they go out into the Bay. The answer is, yes at times they do.


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## McSpoon (May 18, 2016)

This is one of the Most informative and enjoyable reads on this forum in quite a while and it sure beats reading about someone whining about being bullied or carrying a Machete on the boat for protection. Thanks to all who are inputting their stories and knowledge. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LoneStarFish (Jul 13, 2010)

Great response, thank you everyone who contributed! I'll be saving this thread as I know I'll go back and read it a few times!

Meadowlark, would love to read the Striper report my email is [email protected].
I was also on the email chain in 10 about Striper fishing it was great info too!

Wonder why we don't get any stock from other states?
I never knew such a heated battle ensued for the Red River and Texoma. Bet that's a hell of a story...


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## LoneStarFish (Jul 13, 2010)

wwind3 said:


> Wonder with the natural spawns occurring in the lake-do you think the newer generations of the fish will adapt better to the lake conditions--ie--the warmer shallower waters? I would think from an evolutionary aspect they would adapt.


Interesting thought! I am in no way an expert, but from what I do understand about evolutionary biology, it would take many generations for something to change its biology and adapt. But, hell im just a country boy that loves to hunt and fish. Are there any biologists on this board that could examine your question?


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Meadowlark said:


> Fixed it for you.
> 
> Clearly, the native strain of striped bass that was commercially fished in Texas waters all the way down to Corpus years ago saw water temps way over 60 deg.
> 
> I agree with biologists who still hold out hope and act accordingly that the DNA of those Gulf striped bass may still exist in some river fish today. Its worth protecting, IMO, for that possibility.


I can't find it now but I found a TP&W article a few year back that stated the last commercial caught and landed Gulf Striper catch was at Port A in 1960.
No details on how many or size of the fish.


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## cva34 (Dec 22, 2008)

What a education...You guys are WOW! THX...So much GREEN deserved don't know where to start


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Wonder why we donâ€™t get any stock from other states?
I never knew such a heated battle ensued for the Red River and Texoma. Bet thatâ€™s a hell of a story...[/QUOTE]

Two answers. 
First TP&W does not want to pollute the possibility that there are native Gulf striper blood in the brood stock they have now.

I lived in Oklahoma when the feud was raging in the courts.
The upper Red River is fed by several creeks in western Oklahoma that have high salt content. The Okie farmers along the Red were having problems from the salt in their irrigation water during certain rain conditions.
Oklahoma started a program to dam off the salt creeks or otherwise stop it from flowing into the river.
TP&W threw a fit. Since at the time the Red river was only one of two rivers where the freshwater captive striper population actually spawns and is 100% self sustaining. Santee- Cooper being the other.
Texas felt that to alter the salt content would hamper or even stop the natural spawning.
They went to court to stop the Okies in their tracks.
So the following year the OK wildlife dept cooked up some reason why it would be harmful to harvest brood fish below Texoma dam.
Since the river channel was relocated intirely on OK side of the existing river boundary when the lake was built the tail race containing the spawning fish is on the OK side.
So the TP&W were forced to find another source. 
TP&W has expanded the striper/hybrid program from a single hatchery and a dozen brood fish to three large operations utilizing hundreds of fish every year.
OK is now collecting stripers for hybid and pure striper procuction according to this article. http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsext...cle_9ff23679-d983-5c73-8d63-9146f2840205.html.
So I guess the large Texoma population is not used by either state.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Sunbeam said:


> I can't find it now but I found a TP&W article a few year back that stated the last commercial caught and landed Gulf Striper catch was at Port A in 1960.
> No details on how many or size of the fish.


I've always wondered about that very thing...the size and age distribution of those Gulf Stripers. Would make a great research paper for some enterprising Phd budding biologist. I'd love to know.

The last research I did showed there was still a resident population of them in a river in Florida. I've forgotten the name of the river but it was up in the panhandle area as I recall.

The very first, and not last striper, I ever caught was back in the 70's in Upper Trinity Bay. Not an especially remarkable fish in size but very surprising. I have always wondered if it was one of the last surviving Gulf Striped Bass...but will never know the answer. I discussed with Joe Dogett(Houston Chronicle) at the time but he didn't have any info, as usual.

We frequently made the run from Clear Lake all the way to Trinity Bay in the fall when the salinity of the Bay was highest...caught some huge specs there and that lone striped bass.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

LoneStarFish said:


> Great response, thank you everyone who contributed! Iâ€™ll be saving this thread as I know Iâ€™ll go back and read it a few times!
> 
> Meadowlark, would love to read the Striper report my email is [email protected].
> I was also on the email chain in 10 about Striper fishing it was great info too!
> ...


E-mail sent...enjoy your reading.

I had forgotten about sending out those e-mail chains on catching striped bass in Livingston....I guarantee there is no one who caught more or had any techniques that came close in effectiveness. I averaged over 300 *keeper* stripers a year back then, caught a striper on the lake for 35 consecutive months, recorded 4 strings of 5 fish limits over 40 pounds and more over 30 pounds (see my albums), and documented the time and location for well over 3000 caught striped bass....then it was time to move along.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

LoneStarFish said:


> Interesting thought! I am in no way an expert, but from what I do understand about evolutionary biology, it would take many generations for something to change its biology and adapt. But, hell im just a country boy that loves to hunt and fish. Are there any biologists on this board that could examine your question?


That type of evolution is typically measured in hundreds of thousands of years if not millions of years. We won't see it.

A more likely scenario, IMO, is that the magic of whatever remaining DNA from the Gulf Stripers still exists and some day will manifest itself in the reproduction that happens below the dam....wouldn't that be something?


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## wwind3 (Sep 30, 2009)

Meadowlark said:


> That type of evolution is typically measured in hundreds of thousands of years if not millions of years. We won't see it.
> 
> A more likely scenario, IMO, is that the magic of whatever remaining DNA from the Gulf Stripers still exists and some day will manifest itself in the reproduction that happens below the dam....wouldn't that be something?


I agree with what you say re: evolution--just wondering if perhaps the ones that are surviving each year might one day be able to be caught and released after a fight rather than die...maybe they are slowly getting to be a little more Bad-a.

I don't like to eat them but wouldn't mind catch and release like we do bass. I know the sub 18 inchers tend to die when returned--is that still the case? Havent been to the south end in a couple years--used to see floaters down there.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

wwind3 said:


> ...perhaps the ones that are surviving each year might one day be able to be caught and released after a fight rather than die...maybe they are slowly getting to be a little more Bad-a.
> 
> ...


I haven't seen any indication of that....but Nature finds a way and one can hope. In summer months, my practice was "5 and done!" No culling, except for undersized fish. I simply quit fishing for them after 5 keepers. Many days that meant I was back at the slip by 7:30 or 8:00 am. It's my belief that upwards of 95% of them die after release in summer months. No better proof than Pine Island after a summer week end.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

wwind3 said:


> ... I don't like to eat them but wouldn't mind catch and release like we do bass. ...


Agree. but ever taste a fresh striped bass from cold deep lakes and/or the salt? They are fantastic...far superior to the shad eating Livingston fish, IMO.


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## Snookered (Jun 16, 2009)

Meadowlark said:


> I haven't seen any indication of that....but Nature finds a way and one can hope. In summer months, my practice was "5 and done!" No culling, except for undersized fish. I simply quit fishing for them after 5 keepers. Many days that meant I was back at the slip by 7:30 or 8:00 am. It's my belief that upwards of 95% of them die after release in summer months. No better proof than Pine Island after a summer week end.


yes, nature finds a way....I suppose the question is, has there been a long term change in the temperature of LL? or has the 95% release mortality always been a thing and the temps are the same as they've always been?
snookered


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## Snookered (Jun 16, 2009)

Meadowlark said:


> That type of evolution is typically measured in hundreds of thousands of years if not millions of years. We won't see it.
> 
> A more likely scenario, IMO, is that the magic of whatever remaining DNA from the Gulf Stripers still exists and some day will manifest itself in the reproduction that happens below the dam....wouldn't that be something?


well, there's genetics and then adaptation....the genetics are "still there" for sure, however, populations can also "adapt" to hotter or cooler water in just a few short generations by simple survival...you say in another comment that 95% of them die after being released in the summer...well, those fish aren't passing on their genes...only the strong survive to reproduce, correct?

or is it that these fish are wholly stocked, and genetics don't matter? I'm curious actually...

great discussion folks!
snookered


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

What is the surface temp of LL right now?

At Somerville guys bring LM bass in to weigh them...they don't realize they are killing everyone of them. I see some very nice LM bass being eaten by the buzzards around the marina every time I go. I have also seen the guys weighing them then release them.Last trip there was 85 to 89 degrees at Somerville.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Snookered said:


> yes, nature finds a way....I suppose the question is, has there been a long term change in the temperature of LL? or has the 95% release mortality always been a thing and the temps are the same as they've always been?
> snookered


I've fished the lake since it was built...and as you can probably tell, I'm very much into "data" as it is generally truth as opposed to the big one that always gets away, LOL.

In my experience, no there hasn't been any significant temp changes over the period of time since it was built. There have been periodic "events" triggered by cosmic weather changes that have had significant impacts on the striped bass, the water temps, and especially the flows of the lake....but no observable trends in water temps only temporary disruptions.

I'll never forget the sign on a bank in New Caney that read 105 deg. at 6:00 pm back in Sept. 1979 I think it was when I was returning to Houston from fishing LL. No, it was hot then and fish died and they still do today.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Snookered said:


> well, there's genetics and then adaptation....the genetics are "still there" for sure, however, populations can also "adapt" to hotter or cooler water in just a few short generations by simple survival...


Several years ago, while the study I referenced earlier was in progress, i.e. I was sending fish heads to biologists and making them an offer they couldn't refuse, LOL, we had a good discussion about those genetics relative to the Gulf Striped Bass.

I can tell you back then, there were biologists who were absolutely convinced that the Gulf Striper genetics still existed then in river fish and there were others in T,P,&W biologists who strongly disagreed. As best I can tell from actions, those believing in Gulf genetics are still holding sway today.


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## SeaOx 230C (Aug 12, 2005)

I believe there are original genetics in some of the fish in the Lower River. I also believe ,and have had discussions with GW's who patrol the River, that all the stripers do not reside at the Dam. In fact I believe that most of the year most of the stripers in the Lower River are not at the dam at all.


Don't get me wrong there are some stripers at the dam all year long. I just don't believe as some do that most of them stay there at the tailrace. I have not even gotten close to really figuring it all out but there some things that I have figured out about them. And the not knowing is what keeps me digging and looking.


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## SeaOx 230C (Aug 12, 2005)

Another thing that I do know about them is a lot of the bigger ones I have caught where not caught on lures or live bait but on big chunks of dead bait. I even caught a 27" on a big chunk of bloody Bonita filet. I had saved it from an offshore trip to try and use as big cat or gar bait.


I also watched a fishing show from the East Coast once and they were striper fishing using a big gob of fresh clam, hmmmmm made me think of the mussels in the River.. They tore up the big big stripers.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Clams and big chunks of cut bait is the bait of choice for the tournament fisherman on the east coast.
Also night fishing in stormy conditions produce those huge fish.
The last two world records were caught at night drifting live eels.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Also I think catch and release in hot weather should be called catch and throw away.
Livingston has one of the largest population of alligator gar in the state if not the country.
If they did not exist the beaches on Pine Island and Tigerville would be white with dead fish.
Back about 2001 when I lived in the Beacon Bay campground I witnessed a typical catch and release bass tournament. Fishing was hard but 14 teams managed their two largest fish limits.
They weighed 28 nice bass. All were release alive in the marina basin. Within two days I had dipped 21 out from under the docks to cut down on the stink. I am sure those fellows all felt good about saving the species.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Here is a link to striper fishing in the western lakes.
http://www.in-fisherman.com/rigged-ready/sw/sensational-striped-bass-west/
A friend who lives in Montana fish down here with me about five years ago. All he talked about was the great striper fishing in Lakes Powell, Mead and Mohave. He said he had caught numerous 40 pound fish while fishing the various lakes while wintering with his brother in Vegas.
He said that some of the lakes have very large limits with a no cull policy. Catch it keep it.
I guess a little google work might find some great places for spring and fall out of state fishing trips.
BUT...if Bob Wills is still the king of western swing music Lake Ouachita in Hot Springs AR is still the king of inland striper fishing.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Sunbeam said:


> Also I think catch and release in hot weather should be called catch and throw away.
> ....


Back in the day, I argued with anyone who would listen( and some who would not) at T,P,&W that they needed to make an exception for Livingston striped bass limits.

Livingston needed(still needs) a "5 and done" exception rule where the anglers by law could not cull any striped bass and could only keep 5.

Alas, my pleas were ignored...but I practiced the policy anyhow except retaining the below 18 inch fish. I guess it made me feel better knowing those beautiful stripers weren't being totally wasted.


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## Snookered (Jun 16, 2009)

Sunbeam said:


> I am sure those fellows all felt good about saving the species.


LOL! yeah, we have new shark fishermen down here on the coast that say they're "catch and release tagging for science" but a lot of the big ones don't make it...

same difference...sad to see...
snookered


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Sunbeam said:


> I can't find it now but I found a TP&W article a few year back that stated the last commercial caught and landed Gulf Striper catch was at Port A in 1960.
> No details on how many or size of the fish.


Where would these Port A fish have spawned at?

I know there was a lot of pollution at that time so I assume that is what killed them off down in that area.

Why have they not done any DNA testing on the Stripers below LL to see for sure if the original stock exists?

H*LL...Everyone one on Jerry Springer gets DNA tested!


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

They do some sort of genetic test when they bring them ashore at the harvest site. Plus they check the egg condition. They only keep fish that a hormone shot will produce spawning with in a few days of capture.
There was a biologist, first name Mark, told me about ten years ago that only one out of five females made the pure striper test. Those that failed ended up becoming mama to a brood of hybrids.

Meadowlark, can you remember that tall long hair kid that was our lake biologist during the early 2000's. He was stationed in College Station.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Sunbeam said:


> ...
> 
> Meadowlark, can you remember that tall long hair kid that was our lake biologist during the early 2000's. He was stationed in College Station.


The good news is yes I definitely remember him...but the bad news is forgot his name but seems like it was Mark Davis. Very knowledgeable fellow.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Sunbeam said:


> ... only one out of five females made the pure striper test. Those that failed ended up becoming mama to a brood of hybrids.
> 
> ....


I've heard the same...what I don't understand and do object to is not returning those females to the river. Also, the pure ones aren't returned to the river after they are finished with them. In April, if handled properly, as I'm sure the biologists do, those fish would stand a good chance of surviving in the river and some of us could get a shot at them. Never understood that!


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## wwind3 (Sep 30, 2009)

Meadowlark said:


> Several years ago, while the study I referenced earlier was in progress, i.e. I was sending fish heads to biologists and making them an offer they couldn't refuse, LOL, we had a good discussion about those genetics relative to the Gulf Striped Bass.
> 
> I can tell you back then, there were biologists who were absolutely convinced that the Gulf Striper genetics still existed then in river fish and there were others in T,P,&W biologists who strongly disagreed. As best I can tell from actions, those believing in Gulf genetics are still holding sway today.


LOL! Are you saying that Clemenza sleeps with the fishes?


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Meadowlark said:


> I've heard the same...what I don't understand and do object to is not returning those females to the river. Also, the pure ones aren't returned to the river after they are finished with them. In April, if handled properly, as I'm sure the biologists do, those fish would stand a good chance of surviving in the river and some of us could get a shot at them. Never understood that!


Three words....Company Fish Fry.


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## wwind3 (Sep 30, 2009)

One of the best posts ever! 


Re: bass tourneys. Most of the tournaments are out of Pontoons or Kickapoo marinas. Including two of the Texas Team Cabelas' tourneys. The fish are released into the water right there. In eight years I have seen very few dead largemouth after a bass tournament. 


But I have caught a few with mouths torn up from being caught before. They try to keep the bass alive-I do worry about rubbing the slime off them and that is not good long term...


I too started fishing the lake when it was new--1st t ime I believe it was about 5 feet from filling up.


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