# double haul frustration



## barronj (Sep 30, 2013)

Sometimes I have it, lately I have not. My leader collapses on itself, for lack of better explanation, and my distance is crummy.

I have a place in the back yard to go practice, but I feel like I need a reset on the fundamentals.

I was throwing a clouser on my 8' a few weeks back and sucking wind...


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## Pudldux (May 14, 2011)

Slow down your casting arm. Let your haul arm do the work


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

One of the biggest problem is the timing of the haul vs. moving your casting arm forward. A slight delay, very slight, between starting the haul and starting the arm forward helps to accelerate the line. If you do them at the same time they can cancel each other out.

Good luck. When it hits, it's a great feeling.


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## Backcast (Jul 22, 2005)

Look up "Taming the Wind" by Prescott Smith on youtube. There are several videos on the technique he uses. This video really helped me with the double haul.

Joe


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## southpaw (Feb 25, 2009)

By no means am I any kind of casting expert but it sounds like a timing issue to me. A little hard to tell just by your description, but "leader collapsing" sounds like you're allowing slack t0o build in your line at some point. Being that you're double hauling this could be a result of any number of things from pausing to long or not enough in between your back and foreward cast or could be your timing on your haul. I kind of look at fly casting like I do a golf swing (I'm not too good at either, but I'll let you know anyway) if you watch the flight of the ball, you can generally tell what's wrong with your swing i.e. if you slice the ball you're likely not clearing your shoulder or holding the club incorrectly. Same principal applies to casting, you can watch the path of your line and generally tell what's going on. 

If I were you I'd go backwards to try and figure out what's wrong. Single haul and see if you have the same issue. If you are, then back track to no hauling. From there it'll be easier to see if it's an issue from your casting arm, hauling arm or both.


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## barronj (Sep 30, 2013)

Thanks for the replies. I spot a trend. I'll look up taming the wind.


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## salty_waders (Feb 13, 2006)

Its timing. Once you nail the timing you will feel it and see it work. If your leader is "collapsing" its likely a tailing loop. I'd work on correcting the tailing loop before the double haul. Imagine a paint brush on the tip of your rod and your painting a ceiling with it. You want to paint a flat ceiling with your rod tip, not a curved ceiling like an igloo. Clear as mud? BTW, contrary to what most will tell you, a double haul is not required to catch redfish here in Texas. A lot of folks get fixated on how far they can cast rather than concentrating on accuracy and presentation. I've seen lots of folks catch redfish without a double haul and Ive see lots of folks spook redfish with an aggressive cast. Now that I think about it....the last red I caught on a fly was with a roll cast! Regards, Jeff


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## Pete A. (Dec 10, 2010)

I would first "ditch" the Clouser (or anything with heavy lead eyes) until your casting improves. These really are just jigs being used on a fly rod. They (heavily weighted flies) bring along a lot of casting issues. Some older fly fisherman refer to them as "chuck n ducks". Probably break as many fly rod tips as car doors. 

Try an easy to tie and easy to throw Lefty's Deceiver. These have enough wind resistance to help smooth out the cast. They are very effective flies. Might have to wait that 2-3 seconds longer for it to sink but do catch fish.

It's really all timing. Find that lawn or field to practice. Stand sideways and watch every back cast as closely as you watch your forward cast.

Distance will come once your back cast improves.

Slow down and enjoy it as this is really only about fun.

Pete A.


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## salty_waders (Feb 13, 2006)

Pete A. said:


> I would first "ditch" the Clouser (or anything with heavy lead eyes) until your casting improves. These really are just jigs being used on a fly rod. They (heavily weighted flies) bring along a lot of casting issues. Some older fly fisherman refer to them as "chuck n ducks". Probably break as many fly rod tips as car doors.
> 
> Try an easy to tie and easy to throw Lefty's Deceiver. These have enough wind resistance to help smooth out the cast. They are very effective flies. Might have to wait that 2-3 seconds longer for it to sink but do catch fish.
> 
> ...


Some great pointers. Another flaw I often see are folks trying to overpower/muscle the rod. When this happens everything falls apart. And they typically do this when trying to distance cast. Slow down and let the rod do the work. If your shoulder gets tired, your working too much. Slow down and watch the line. Regards, Jeff


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## Golden (Aug 1, 2006)

SW you hit it right on the nose. I have been fishing the Texas Coast for many years now both as a wader and from the bow of a poling skiff. From the bow of a skiff you should never need a double haul unless the quarry is moving away fast in a school. If the guy on the push pole is any good he should be able to get you within range. If the fish is alone and moving off fast you've probably spooked it and there is no reason to waste the time and energy of a cast anyways. Most redfish I have caught are no more than thirty feet from the rod tip. No need to even single haul... fear is you build up too much line speed and when the fly strikes the water ...splash...gone! Casting instructor I know said it best, "the cast should end one foot above the strike zone" then the fly sets down in the water "like a butterfly with sore feet!" This will usually end up with a very high hook up success rate.

Yes I use a double haul especially when fishing for tarpon. 1. I don't want to be on top of it when presenting the fly for the spook factor or 2. when setting the hook it is better to have all of your loose free line out so the strip set doesn't have to include bringing in a bunch of loose free line first. 3. most tarpon want to follow their quarry before the eat so they can identify what they are eating. So you better be out there away usually 60 - 80 feet. But That is for Tarpon and it doesn't sound like you're trying to jump into that puddle yet anyways. so don't worry about the double haul. Like most fly fishers if you put away the conventional gear and you use the fly rod each fishing trip you will develop a comfortable casting technique that will include a subtle haul/double haul move that is imperceptible. It just happens. Don't give in. One good secret is practice in windy weather each time you get a chance. 

If the wind is howling double hauling is helpful but drinking beer or scotch is too. You choose your poison! Keep practicing and if you are going to be fishing from a skiff bow I suggest you stand in a chair when practicing so you get the over shifting your weight problem solved too! Also practice stripping into a basket of some sort you'd be surprised how many folks have a hard time doing that too when trying to strip while headed into a stiff wind. **** it all anyways why does this all have to be so hard! 'Cause it ain't called catching! :headknock GOOD LUCK


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## flatscat1 (Jun 2, 2005)

Backcast said:


> Look up "Taming the Wind" by Prescott Smith on youtube. There are several videos on the technique he uses. This video really helped me with the double haul.
> 
> Joe


I've fished and have been taught by Prescott on many encounters. I was at Stafford Creek when he and his former wife, Sam, were filming taming the wind. He is a great instructor.

Learning to keep the line always moving (no pause or waiting for the back cast to straighten before the forward haul) is the trick, and differs from conventional teachings. The left hand keeps the slack out of the line in both directions, allowing the rod leverage to fully be implemented. The haul is not a fast jerky motion....your left hand moves actually at the same speed as you right hand. Your haul hand follows up to the rod also on the back cast, it doesn't stay by your side...a common mistake I see.


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## bigfly55 (Apr 18, 2012)

Lots of good advice already given, but would like to add that a lot of people also make the mistake of abruptly stopping the rod on either end of the cast. You really don't want to stop the rod so much as stop the application of power. Try to set up a video camera to the side of you, and then watch what your rod hand is doing. The camera never lies, and if you have a good understanding of what is supposed to be going on, you can usually solve problems on your own. 
When I was professionally casting in CA, I was hooked up to a biokinetics machine, and we really learned a lot from that. Mainly that my rod arc was too narrow. If you watch me now, my rod moves from almost 3 on the backcast to 9 on the forward cast. It moves that far, but only about 40% of that stroke is actually under real power. Power on the backcast is from about 11 to 2, and on the forward stroke is from about 1 to 11. By allowing the rod to "drift" you are letting it use it's power completely. 
Another very common mistake that I see is that people tend to move their rod hand way too far away from their body. At the end of a backcast, you should be able to take the rod out of your hand, and touch the side of your head, preferably your ear. The more that hand strays, the higher the chance that the rod tip will get out of alignment. The more out of alignment it is, the slower your line speed is and the higher the chance of loops that will go awry.
I hope that I have not confused the issue more for you, and remember that there is nothing that can replace the value of a good lesson. Most instructors should be able to get this ironed out for you in one lesson.


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## barronj (Sep 30, 2013)

darn good info. Great forum/sub-forum!


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## bigfly55 (Apr 18, 2012)

Thought I would link some vids as well.

First is by Mel Krieger. He was probably the most enthusiastic casting instructor I ever had the pleasure of working with, and had an uncanny ability to cure anyone's casting ails. If you notice, he is also one of the few that does not say to turn and watch the backcast. When one does that, it invariably makes the rod tip do a little flip and slows the line speed. I also try to instill that to the point of not even setting a foot back, but think of the waist down as being in concrete. When you put a foot back, you also get the tendency to "rock the boat", sending out shockwaves that can easily spook fish. You can cover at least 180 degrees from the front of a boat without having to move your feet from square facing forward simply by turning at the waist and not moving your feet.






Next is John Duncan. He is a true goofball, dear friend and great guy. Not the best quality video, but he does discuss some very valid points to successfully haul.






Tim Rajeff. He's been at it forever and also a good vid with some different views.


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## rugger (Jul 17, 2009)

bigfly55 said:


> Thought I would link some vids as well.
> 
> First is by Mel Krieger. He was probably the most enthusiastic casting instructor I ever had the pleasure of working with, and had an uncanny ability to cure anyone's casting ails. If you notice, he is also one of the few that does not say to turn and watch the backcast. When one does that, it invariably makes the rod tip do a little flip and slows the line speed. I also try to instill that to the point of not even setting a foot back, but think of the waist down as being in concrete. When you put a foot back, you also get the tendency to "rock the boat", sending out shockwaves that can easily spook fish. You can cover at least 180 degrees from the front of a boat without having to move your feet from square facing forward simply by turning at the waist and not moving your feet.
> 
> ...


X2 on Tim.. Fished with him for a week in Belize and got to witness some of his casting seminars that he was giving the staff at El Pescador...amazing fisherman and person.


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## ghillhouse (Jan 6, 2008)

bigfly55 said:


> Lots of good advice already given, but would like to add that a lot of people also make the mistake of abruptly stopping the rod on either end of the cast. You really don't want to stop the rod so much as stop the application of power. Try to set up a video camera to the side of you, and then watch what your rod hand is doing. The camera never lies, and if you have a good understanding of what is supposed to be going on, you can usually solve problems on your own.
> When I was professionally casting in CA, I was hooked up to a biokinetics machine, and we really learned a lot from that. Mainly that my rod arc was too narrow. If you watch me now, my rod moves from almost 3 on the backcast to 9 on the forward cast. It moves that far, but only about 40% of that stroke is actually under real power. Power on the backcast is from about 11 to 2, and on the forward stroke is from about 1 to 11. By allowing the rod to "drift" you are letting it use it's power completely.
> Another very common mistake that I see is that people tend to move their rod hand way too far away from their body. At the end of a backcast, you should be able to take the rod out of your hand, and touch the side of your head, preferably your ear. The more that hand strays, the higher the chance that the rod tip will get out of alignment. The more out of alignment it is, the slower your line speed is and the higher the chance of loops that will go awry.
> I hope that I have not confused the issue more for you, and remember that there is nothing that can replace the value of a good lesson. Most instructors should be able to get this ironed out for you in one lesson.


This is well said, read it again a few times slowly. Also the Tim Rajeff video is excellent, I have never seen that one before. What he is saying is super concentrated, so break it down and really listen to the points he is making. Also notice the speed of his double haul, and how quickly he stops it on each haul, just like you want to stop applying power to the rod in each cast.

I like Preston Smith's video. My take is that cast, a little bit of a Belgium cast, is more friendly and easier, as timing is not as quite as important on the backcast, but I find it more tiring to do that. Notice that Preston has his sleeves all the way down to his wrist. My guess is that guy has arms like Popeye.

For my own recommendation, take anything a freshwater caster tells you with a huge grain of salt; it is not the same, and typically the largest line they cast is an 8w, maybe a 9w, which is child's play if you want to cast to a big tarpon with a 12w. For example, I doubt you will never see a freshwater caster cast like Tim in his video, because you don't have to.

First, understand this: you don't cast the line; you load the rod and then let the rod cast the line.

Secondly, the most important thing you can do before you learn to double haul or drift is make small loops that cut into the wind, both in your forward cast and your back cast. That is THE foundation that a good efficient cast is built upon. This is done by keeping the tip tracking in a near straight line, and quickly stopping applying power on the forward and back cast. If you watch a video of Chico Fernandez cast, you wonder how his line doesn't get tangled or crossed, as his loops are so tight. Tight loops are more efficient, i.e. require less effort so go farther.

Third, don't cheat yourself on your backcast. When I have problems with my forward cast, it usually is because of a bad backcast, either the timing or the path of the rod tip. One, a good tight backcast is the foundation for a good forward cast. Secondly, you WILL be casting to fish with your backcast. For example, I caught my first permit this spring on a 40 ft back cast. Because of a strong crossing wind behind me, where the fish were located off to my right, and where another lodge's boat was 200 yards on the other side of this lagoon, that is what we had available. Don't cheat yourself on your backcast technique. Whenever I am demoing a rod, I always see how it backcasts to a target, and I have made purchases based on how rods differ there. Typically stiffer faster rods backcast better, as the backcast stroke is shorter.

The best source I have found for learning how to cast in the salt is George V. Roberts' Saltwater Flycasting video. Make sure if you buy it you get it with the little book inside, that thing is awesome as it has a ton of information, referencing Lefty and Joan Wulff.

Good luck!


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