# Concept Guides



## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

Croakerjo thank you for the help. Still having a problem laying out an MHX blank 6.6 rod with the new concept guides using a Stradic 2500 reel. I've laid it out to the Tom Kirkland new concept guide theory and my choke point is about 40" from the end of the reel axle which the Stradic axle sits at 4.5 degrees from the rod. I'm using Fuji BYAG stripping guides & BLAG running guides. I've tried all different sizes and spacing and still can't achieve the performance of a Shimano Compre 6.6 rod that doesn't follow the new concept theory. What am I missing? Thanks for any help and insight you guys can give me. (Trying not ruin another rod!!!!!)


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## mark blabaum (Dec 6, 2007)

How far is the first guide from the face of the reel?


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## Charlie2 (Aug 21, 2004)

Have you used the GPS System yet?

I did, and was surprised at how close the spacings were compared to a static placement. C2


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## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

40 inchs


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## Goags (May 28, 2004)

for clarification, how far is the largest guide from the reel spool?


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## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

The center line of the tip of the axle on a Stradic reel sits 3.100" below the rod. The axle sits at 4.4degrees to the rod. So if you run a line from the tip of your axle at 4.4 degrees it intersects your rod at 40". That's where I placed the choker and then the line runs parallel to the blank through the running guides to the tip. So there is an abrupt change in the angle of the line. That's what I don't understand how that helps the rods performance.


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## Goags (May 28, 2004)

we're trying to help you place the reduction guides, the choke/runners are ok.


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## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

first one was a 20 at 19in then 12 at 30in and a 8 at 40in


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## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

the static test was great the distance was about 6ft short of the shamino rod


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## mark blabaum (Dec 6, 2007)

I just read the update after I posted the first response. If you have the first one (stipper) at 19-20 inches, you may want to play with the placement, slide the stripper ahead or back 1/2" at a time until you get a smooth feed though the stripper, your distance should improve if the line doesn't bunch at the stripper. It may be the blank itself that isn't loading as well as the shimano that you are comparing it to. You may want to make sure that you are comparing apples to apples when it comes to your blank.


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## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

the choker is at 40in its a 8L the running are 6


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## mark blabaum (Dec 6, 2007)

I see that you are comparing a MHX blank to a Shimano. The MHX may not be the same power as the Shimano, you may want to use the CCS system and compare the two powers and actions to make sure that you are comparing apples to apples not apples to oranges. A similar power rod with different actions will load and cast differently, this may be causing the short fall in your casting distances.


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## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

Thanks for all the responses. When I placed the guides in the same places as the Shimano rod, I get almost the same casting distance and the rods feel almost identical. But the static test isn't that great on either one. Maybe you have to give up a little casting distance in order to get a good static test. Tomorrow I will try different guide placement and see what I come up with. Thanks again!


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## Goags (May 28, 2004)

ncmullet said:


> the choker is at 40in its a 8L the running are 6


FYI, using Kirkman's method, the choke guide is actually the first running guide(same size). I doubt this will make any noticable difference in casting distance, tho. I'd play w/ the spacing/size of the reduction guides. Good luck!


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## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

*More Testing*

Did more testing today. Got the performance of the rods fairly close. Still going to try to improve. Here are some pic's of the two rods and the way the line runs.


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## CroakerJO (Mar 16, 2011)

Great photos by the way. This is difficult to explain but here's what I think. Shorter reduction trains like the one you have built here are mostly associated with micro built rods...or at least influenced by micro builders in their efforts to make everything happen smaller and faster. In fact, you have built a perfect KR CONCEPT rod (you can see details fo this new concept at Anglers Resource web site, It's Fuji's official "word" on micro built rods after a ton of research). The only difference is you haven't used micro guides. 

The theory about why micro guides work is all about "lost energy". In a normal set up the coil of line passing through the guides is choked a little (using some energy) then choked a little more (using a little more energy) and so on down the line until the line runs smooth and uses very little energy the last 2 or 3 or 4 guides. 

In a micro rod a LOT of energy is used to choke and control the line very early in the guide train. In fact, by the time you get to the third guide the line is running smoothly through the last 6 or 7 guides with little or no loss in energy.

Here's the kicker. It is becoming fairly apparent that the total energy used by a conventional or concept reduction train ("a-little-at-a-time" choke theory) is higher than the faster micro, "choke-it-all-real-fast" theory. You use less "lure" energy on a fast choke and the savings show up as extra distance on the cast. Albeit, this may only be a couple of yards at best.

Back to your rod. It looks like you are no where near any line slap so I would cheat the stripper and second reduction guide away from the reel. The GPS blog at AR says you can go up to 2 inches either way. I'd go the full 2 on this rod.

Move only the stripper first and see how it casts (not how it looks). Then move the second guide if you need to and the choker with it. You might end up losing a guide altogether which would lighten the rod and be a good thing.

From the cast pics I think you are very close to a excellent rod. The bottom photo shows really nice smooth flow through the third guide. I think moving the two reduction guides around will make this rod as good as it will get with these guides.

Now here's the food for thought. If you went to a high frame small ring stripper, I think you would gain more distance. A 12 ring stripper would manage and smooth the flow even faster, but you MUST maintain the height . A Fuji NMV 12, 8, and then 4.5 runners would be my choice and I have built a number of rods for this reel. 

Hope this helps and doesn't seem too confusing!


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## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

Thank you Croakerjo for your imput. I agree 100% that higher frame guides on the choker will improve my performance. I ordered some today. Also, in the pic's the rod on the bottom is the one I'm building and the top one is the Shimano. I tried the GPS system, but the choker didn't feel like it was in the correct position. It was about 34" and the degree of the reel axle should have made it about 40". The 40" worked a lot better for the choker. When I get the new guides, I'll test it out and post whether it made any improvement or not. Thanks again!


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## CroakerJO (Mar 16, 2011)

A lot of times a small error in reel measurement can make a difference of an inch or two. Sometimes I'll measure a reel 3 or 4 times and average things out. Be sure to extend the spool axle all the way out, it allows a larger margin of error even though the math relationships are the same regardless of spool position.


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## Goags (May 28, 2004)

mcmullet, I'm glad you're being patient and trying diff setups. I measured the reel face diam. of a Shimano 1000 (39mm) and a 4000 (46mm). Have you tried the 27X method for locating the choker, using your 2500, and disregarding reel upsweep? Maybe try this, too, while you're experimenting. CroakerJO, good info/advice!


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## CroakerJO (Mar 16, 2011)

27X and Reel Measurement are discussed in the latest blog post at anglers resource web site. Food for thought.


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## Bill Stevens (Mar 8, 2008)

I find your posts quite interesting and informative.

A couple of questions please - on the picture showing the line flow when the reels are laying on the flat table - can not see - is the line coming off the reel in the same position on both rods? at approximately what point on the circle is the exit?

In the picture showing the line wave during cast what is the lure weight. Does the amplitude of the wave increase with decreasing lure weight? Would it be possible for you to reduce the lure weight to 1/8 oz and make a visual comparison to the wave form?

Again thanks for this work - good job!

If you would contact me via IM I would like to arrange to send you a sample guide for trial and comparison.

Bill Stevens


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## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

Yea, I tried the 27X, it came out to around 48". I didn't feel as if on the Shiimano Stradic that it worked by checking the degree of the axle on the reel. When I put a put piece of tape on a string on the reel axle, ran it 48" up the blank, the string was not following the same degree as the axle. After taking the Stradic to work and putting it on an electronic comparator, we found that the axle sits at 4.4 degrees. So with the reel mounted to the rod and trigged out, it comes out to 40". That seemed to be the best with the string also following the axle of the reel. The lure that I used to cast was an 1/8oz jig head with a small plastic bait. This weekend I'll try heavier weighted baits and move my reduction guides around to see if I can improve the performance. Here is the link of the principal I am trying to go by.

http://www.rodbuilding.org/library/newguide.html

Thanks for everybody's input and I'll post this weekend what my findings are.


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## ncmullet (Sep 1, 2010)

Did more testing today. Got the rod to cast better than the Shimano, about 3' on average better. The question I have you rod builders, as long as I'm using Shimano Stradic 2500 reel and the same style of guides, the first 3 guides from the reel will always be the same distance from the face of the reel on any length rod. The only thing that changes with the length of the rod is the number of running guides. Am I looking at this correctly? Do you have guys have a better way of setting up the guides than the Tom Kirkland theory that Im using? If you know of a better way for guide setup are there any instructions on the internet? I've only be able to find Tom Kirkland's information and there isn't any other information on the internet that I can find.


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## CroakerJO (Mar 16, 2011)

Tom's theory IS the new guide concept with one variation on location of the choke point. His version positions it at 27 times the diameter of the spool, the NGC puts it in line with the angle of the spool axle. Usually, 27X will put the choker further away than the reel measurement system to determine actual angle of the axle. All of these theories are explained at the Anglers Resource web site. They also say that once the angle is determined choke point will remain the same from rod to rod. Some disagree based on bend characteristics under load, but in most rods there is so little bend in the lower portion (graphite, not parabolic glass) it doesn't seem to have much effect. Perhaps an inch one way or another.


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