# Alligator Gar under attack



## texas two guns

As many of you already know Texas is at it again!! Not long ago it was Town Lake, then it was the Catfish last year, and this time there trying to limit the Gator Gar.

I'm all for managing our resources whether it be fish, deer, birds etc. but management without studies is reckless and can be potentially dangerous to the ecosystem.

I'm asking that all bowfishermen, Archers, and sportsman, regardless of the state you live in join us in this fight for our rights. I'm actively recruiting people on multiple sites to sign Tim McKee's Petition http://www.petitiononline.com/5695829/petition.html

This movement by the TPWD would be like your state saying you can only shoot one buck a year and it must by over 200"'s it's ridiculus

If you haven't signed the petition please do so. You can also go directly to the TX site and tell them on there survey you strongly disagree with the idea of limiting recreational harvesting of this species here. http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business...ulations.phtml

We all need to join together before the Anti's pick us apart piece by piece.

If you frequent any other archery related hunting forums or feel like we do feel free to copy and paste this message.


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## texas two guns

56 views and not a word spoken!


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## capt kim

texas two guns said:


> As many of you already know Texas is at it again!! Not long ago it was Town Lake, then it was the Catfish last year, and this time there trying to limit the Gator Gar.
> 
> I'm all for managing our resources whether it be fish, deer, birds etc. but management without studies is reckless and can be potentially dangerous to the ecosystem.
> 
> I'm asking that all bowfishermen, Archers, and sportsman, regardless of the state you live in join us in this fight for our rights. I'm actively recruiting people on multiple sites to sign Tim McKee's Petition http://www.petitiononline.com/5695829/petition.html
> 
> This movement by the TPWD would be like your state saying you can only shoot one buck a year and it must by over 200"'s it's ridiculus
> 
> If you haven't signed the petition please do so. You can also go directly to the TX site and tell them on there survey you strongly disagree with the idea of limiting recreational harvesting of this species here. http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business...ulations.phtml
> 
> We all need to join together before the Anti's pick us apart piece by piece.
> 
> If you frequent any other archery related hunting forums or feel like we do feel free to copy and paste this message.


TPWD _has_ been doing studies and the studies indicate protection is warranted. Before anyone signs a petition opposing protection measures they should view the TPWD slideshow presentation at http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/regulations/media/gar_background_files/frame.htm

Capt Kim


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## jtbowfisher

Signed!!!!!!!


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## kidflex

im glad there trying to protect the species. they are a great SPORTFISH!


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## texas two guns

Re-read the info posted by TPWD it is chock full of unknowns. It is in their own righting. The lady they referenced Mrs. Ferrara and her study is from Louisiana. The commercial harvest over there is probably a bit higher than ours, not that Louisiana is hurting for Gator Gar either. If there was a conclusive Texas study they would have referenced it and not the 1971 study they listed and Mrs. Ferrara's study.
Kidflex, sure they are a great sportfish, why not let everyone partake in the fun!


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## calixtog

How long can the resource support unlimited, year-around harvest of the sort alligator gar are subjected to? How long can "sportsmen" continue to target and remove from the fishery the broodstock, especially during the spring spawn (when they are most vulnerable), before the stock begins collapsing?

No, you guys are wrong this time, and I won't endorse it with a signature.

Cg


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## capt kim

texas two guns said:


> Kidflex, sure they are a great sportfish, why not let everyone partake in the fun!


With a rod and reel I partake in the fun as often as I feel like it. The only difference is that we don't harvest any fish - every one we catch goes back as quickly as possible.


























Capt Kim


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## moganman

In my opinion, I believe that ALL gar are under rated and over looked as far as being a great sportfish. I have done collaberations with some colleagues studying gar in the rivers and oxbow lakes and the numbers are great. Of course no one knows more about the numbers than TPWD and I believe that they are acting in good faith and want the best for the ecosystem, but I haven't done enough research to know exactly why they are trying to outlaw it. Alligator gar aren't as plentiful as the longnose spotted and other gar species, but the population is still healthy. All I can say is that they see small changes in numbers along with a rise in bowfishermen and they are trying to act ASAP before the population gets hurt drastically. Just my opinion.


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## jackieblue

The only ones against this are the bowhunters, nearly all sportsmen and TPWD are for protecting the big gar.


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## Gator gar

Catch and release for me too, on rod and reel. I like to eat one every now and then, but if they outlawed keeping them, it wouldn't hurt my feelings none. I'll just go catch another catfish or two. I love them Gator Gars, they are fun to catch.

As far as the population of them is concerned, well, the studies I have actually seen in the lakes and bayous, certainly support that there is a pile of them out there. But then again, I know where to look.


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## texas two guns

That's right jackieblue, because we are being pushed out of a long time sport based on nothing but emotion.


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## capt kim

post deleted


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## capt kim

texas two guns said:


> That's right jackieblue, because we are being pushed out of a long time sport based on nothing but emotion.


I just can't believe someone who fishes for these fish would not support some kind of recreational regulation. This will be the first time in the history of our state that any kind of gar received any kind of protection. I'm more than happy to give up a chance to keep an alligator gar of any size. But then, I'm not out there MAKING MONEY from killing them.

Capt. Kim


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## mudkat

Capt. Kim you are way of base thinking bowfishermen don't care what happens to the gator gar ,we are one of the only groups that care at all.They are our greatest trophies,people come from all over the counrty for a chance at one.
The bowfishermen know TP&W don't care what we think and we are worried that when they do change the regulations they will do away with our right to take them.
I'm sure you are one of the gass guys and it is really sorry for fellow sportsmen to try and stop other sportsmen from doing what they love!!!
the bowfishermen don't make money off the gar if you have a problem with that your fight is with the commercial fishermen not us!!!


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## BATWING

signed


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## capt kim

mudkat said:


> Capt. Kim you are way of base thinking bowfishermen don't care what happens to the gator gar ,we are one of the only groups that care at all.They are our greatest trophies,people come from all over the counrty for a chance at one.
> The bowfishermen know TP&W don't care what we think and we are worried that when they do change the regulations they will do away with our right to take them.
> I'm sure you are one of the gass guys and it is really sorry for fellow sportsmen to try and stop other sportsmen from doing what they love!!!
> the bowfishermen don't make money off the gar if you have a problem with that your fight is with the commercial fishermen not us!!!


I'll tell you what I am. I am a native Texan alligator gar fisherman. I did not target bowfishermen in my post, I targeted Texas Two Guns who encourages readers to sign a petition that opposes regulation of the recreational harvest of alligator gar. I saw his avatar and deduced that he is a bowfishing guide...who gets paid for killing alligator gar.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

Capt. Kim

Releasing another one


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## jtbowfisher

Back Water Bowfishing is a supply company, Texas two guns is on their prostaff.


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## capt.matt

*Controlled Harvest is the thing to do.*

How old is a 100-150# A-gar? I would guess 15-40 years. Killing these is like cutting down Big oak trees around your house. Once you cut them down there not going to grow back much in your life time.
Not to say you can't harvest some but controll is the key.
I fish Billfish out of Port Aransas we relaese almost 98% of our billfish now days. It is the thing to do if care for our children to enjoy what we have now.


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## mudkat

if you think about it if a gar only gains 10 pounds a year a 100 # would be ten years old ,but the thing is we really don't know how old they are,is has a lot to do with how much they have to eat and down here it's unlimited supply of buffalo and catfish.but what you have to relize is what a small number of people bowfish and rod and reel fish for them.
TP&W estimated 400 people bowfish,I think that is a little low but whatever then out of those people most of them don't shoot a single gator gar all year.
if you think about just the trinity river it's 20-40 foot deep and a couple of hundred miles long there are thousands of gator gar in just that river,
Capt matt you said you release 98% of your bill fish but what about the number you release that die,you know it is more than you want to admit.


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## capt.matt

*Fishing Tools*

I use to bowfish in the late 80's and early 90's. The equipment we use in every type of fishing has got a lot better every year. Back when I bowfished, I used a 12' Johnboat with 1 KC headlight and a coleman lantern and a 17# thrust minkota trolling motor. 
I wish I still had it and my Hoyt Bow. If I had a modern rigged fanboat and lights, there is no doubt I could stack up giant loads over what we used to harvest. I would say that if you don't think a team or two of well equipped bowmen could not impact Aligator Gar in Texas, you would be neive to say the least. We have put a many dents in the Gulf of Mexico fishery. To think the Trinity River is just to vast of an area to shoot out is silly. 
You might have a lot of highly equipped flounder boats from down here start showing up in fresh water, now that we have gigged out the flounder fishery down here on the coast. 
When man and fish collied in the game of fishing, fish die if you are doing it right. You just need to get a handle on how much. Another thing is info on how to do it is out here like this site that used to be very hard to come by is easily available now a days.


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## capt.matt

*Some real info on Aligator Gar*

Take a go look at the reperduction and Groth rate.
*Geographical Distribution

*Although fossils of gars have been found in North America, Central America, Europe, and Asia, the living members of the family are restricted to seven species living in North and Central America. Five of the seven species live in the United States. The range of the alligator gar extends from the Florida Panhandle, through the Gulf Coastal Plain and the Mississippi River Basin extending north to the lower portions of the Ohio and the Missouri River, and ranges southwest through Texas down to Veracruz, Mexico. There is a population in Mississippi Sound and the brackish water of the Gulf Coast and Mobile-Tensaw Delta that seldom stray far inland. There are also reports of a disjunct isolated population living in Nicaragua. The alligator gar is disappearing from many parts of the range, and declining in population everywhere due to over-fishing and the construction of dikes, dams, and other flood control devices, resulting in loss of key breeding habitat. The alligator gar was once reported as common and even numerous in much of its northern range. Now it is rare in the Northern parts of its range with reports of valid sightings coming in only every few years.









World distribution map for the alligator gar

*Habitat*

The alligator gar inhabits large, slow moving rivers, reservoirs, oxbow lakes, bayous and bays, in fresh and brackish water. The alligator gar is the most tolerant gar species of high salinity and occasionally strays into salt water. Young may be seen at the surface in debris such as leaves and twigs. Alligator gar prefer large rivers that have a large overflow floodplane, but these rivers have all but disappeared in North America due to the use of dredging, dams, dikes, and levees.

*Biology* 








Alligator gar
_Susan Middleton © California Academy of Sciences_ _· Distinctive Features_ All gars have an elongated, torpedo-shaped body. The caudal fin of the alligator gar is abbreviate-heterocerical, meaning the tail is not symmetrical. The dorsal and anal fins are located very far back on the body. Gars bodies are covered by ganoid scales, which are thick overlapping scales that create a protective covering similar to medieval chainmail. Gars have retained the spiral valve intestine a primitive feature of the digestive system commonly associated with sharks. Gars also have a highly vascularized swim bladder connected to the pharynx by a pneumatic duct. This enables them to gulp air, which aids in facultative air breathing. This allows gar to breathe when there are very low oxygen levels in the water. The alligator gar is distinguished from other gars in the United States by its relatively short, broad snout which has two rows of fang-like teeth in the upper jaw. The inner row of teeth in the upper jaw is palatine and larger than the outer row of teeth.









Alligator gars in an aquarium
_Susan Middleton © California Academy of Sciences_ _· Coloration_ The alligator gar is dark olive-green dorsally, fading to yellowish white ventrally. Young alligator gars possess a light mid-dorsal stripe bordered by thin dark lines from the tip of snout to the dorsal fin, and a dark lateral band extends along the sides with irregular borders. The dorsal, anal, and caudal fins of the Alligator gar often have oval-shaped black spots. Adult specimens lack spots on the body.









Alligator gar dentition
_© Cathleen Bester_ _· Dentition_ Alligator gars have two rows of teeth. The inner row of teeth is palatine and is longer than the outer row of teeth. The teeth of the alligator gar are long, slander, and fang like, enabling these fish to pierce and hold their prey.

_· Size, Age & Growth_ The alligator gar is one of the largest freshwater fishes in North America and is the largest of the gar species. Young gars have an adhesive disc on the underside of the snout that they use to attach to objects on the bottom until the yolk sac is absorbed. Young gars also have a dorsal caudal filament at the posterior end of the upturned vertebral column, which atrophies and disappears in adults. Gars are slow growing fish, with female alligator gars reaching sexual maturity around age 11 and living to age 50. Male alligator gars mature around age 6 and live at least 26 years. Alligator gars commonly grow to a size of 6 1/2ft (2 m) and over 100 lbs. (45kg). But have been reported to grow up to 350 lbs. and around 10 ft (3m) in length. The largest recorded alligator gar comes from the St. Francis River, Arkansas in the 1930's, and weighed 350 lbs (159 kg).









Alligator gars feed on a variety of prey including blue crabs (_Callinectes sapidus_)
_courtesy U.S. FDA_ _· Food Habits_ Alligator gars appear sluggish, however they are voracious predators. Gars are ambush predators, primarily piscivores, they lay still in the water until an unsuspecting fish swims by, and then lunging forward and lashing the head from side to side in order to capture prey. Many times gars will lay still at the top of the water for long periods of time, appearing to be merely a log. The alligator gars' diet consists primarily of fish. However, brackish water populations of alligator gar are known to feed heavily on blue crabs in addition to fish such as the hardhead catfish. This gar is also known to prey on waterfowl and other birds, small mammals, turtles, and carrion. Alligator gars have been reported to attack duck decoys and eat injured waterfowl shot by hunters.

_· Reproduction_ Little is known of the life history of alligator gar. The gonadosomatic index for mature males and females, and female reproductive hormone analysis have indicated that spawning occurs in late spring, young specimens collected have indicated that spawning probably occurs in April, May, and June in the southern United States. Alligator gars are thought to spawn in the spring by congregating in large numbers with a female and one or more males on either side to fertilize the eggs. Fecundity in females has a positive correlation with total length. Females generally carry an average of 138,000 eggs. The eggs are released and fertilized by the male outside of the body they sink to the bottom after being released and stick to the substrate due to an adhesive outer covering. The eggs are bright red and poisonous if eaten. Alligator gars are thought to spawn in the floodplain of these large rivers, giving their young protection from predators.









American alligators are a potential predator of alligator gar
_courtesy U.S. Geological Survey_ _· Predators_ Due to its extremely large size, an adult alligator gar has few natural predators. Young gars are preyed upon by larger fish, but once they reach a size of about 3 feet (1 m) their only natural predator would be an American alligator (_Alligator mississippiensis_).









This large alligator gar was just under 8 feet in length and weighed 215 pounds! 
_© Mike Guerin/http://TheJump.Net_ 
*Importance to Humans*

The alligator gar has been commercially fished in southern states along with other gar species, and has also been fished and bow-fished. The meat of the alligator gar has been commercially sold for over a dollar a pound locally. It is not classified as a sport fish in some states such as Texas even though there is a popular bow fishery along the Rio Grande River. It is classified as a sport fish Alabama where the limit is 2 fish per day, which makes it off limits to commercial fishing in Alabama. The alligator gars, along with other gars, are important to their ecosystem in order to maintain the ecological balance.

*Danger to Humans*

Due to its large size and sharp teeth, the alligator gar is capable of delivering a serious bite wound to fisherman or swimmers. However, there is no documentation of attacks on man by alligator gars. The eggs are poisonous, causing illness if consumed by humans.

*Conservation*

The alligator gar is rare, endangered, and has even been extirpated from many of the outer areas of its range. Studies in Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana have shown that the alligator gar is very susceptible to overfishing. It has been classified as rare in Missouri, threatened in Illinois, and endangered in Arkansas, Kentucky, and is soon to be in Tennessee.

*

Prepared by:
Nathaniel Goddard *


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## fishdad

For what it is worth, I went to the TPWD website public comments section and made these suggestions :
I agree with the one fish per person per day proposal however I disagreed with the 7 foot minimum length criteria. I suggested a shorter minimum length such as 4 foot or no minimum length at all. I stated that it would be too dangerous at boatside to accurately measure a 7 foot line caught gar and it would be impossible to tell a 6'10" fish from a 7' one while bowfishing. This could result in the uneccessary release of a lethally wounded fish. One fish per day would provide adequate management similar to state regulations on sharks which have similar growth and reproductive rates.
I strongly disagreed with the one fish per year / tag proposal as this is ridiculously restrictive.
I agreed with the proposal to end commercial fishing for alligator gar.

I read or saw no proposal to limit or restrict any type of angling , including bowfishing. I don't think the State is out to get anybody. I have lived in three different states and by far, Texas has had the best resource management. Don't bury your head in the sand. These fish need management. I have fished for and been facinated by these gar my whole life and now my boys are beginning to fish for them. I want their boys to have the opportunity.
RCF


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## Levelwind

O.k., females don't reproduce til 11 years. They've been extirpated or listed in many parts of their range, largely due to habitat destruction. Anyone who has spent any time at all around them knows how vulnerable and visible they are, especially during breeding season. They are pursued (in a lot of the south) year round, without any legal protections. 

I suppose people protested when they couldn't kill a sawfish any more.


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## Tombo

I have volunteered on a couple of TPW gill net surveys and I can tell you they record every fish and piece of grass in that net. It is one of many tools they use. 
Its all about numbers/percentages. We don't want to get to the point of declaring a fish endangered. 
Cooler heads will prevail, but we don't need blanket statements from either side unless it is supported.


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## capt kim

mudkat said:


> Capt matt you said you release 98% of your bill fish but what about the number you release that die,you know it is more than you want to admit.


A whole lot fewer than the fish y'all shoot thru the vitals.

Capt. Kim


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## mudkat

I make no excuses I don't release my fish.
but you have to admit that with gar for sure you have to hook them very deep in the throat so not all your fish survive.
I'm just tired of this I'm better than you I release all my fish aditude when not all of them survive.


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## johnmyjohn

texas two guns said:


> 56 views and not a word spoken!


 Two Guns,,, I'm afraid you are going to be swimming up river on this one. Most people target specks, reds ,catfish etc. and since they really don't know much on a certain fish they're going to err on the conservitive side. Look what we did with corn, people starving all over the world and we take food and make fuel out of this because most people believe what the gov. said about what Archer Danials told them. Now we burn more fuel because eth. gives us bad gas mileage so we polute the same as before not to mention tearing up our gas tanks, carburators and on and on. I am not against conservation one bit and will stand by it if need be but when making a law over pulling a sien a couple of times or someone writing a book is not concrete for me. Look at the snapper deal we have in Texas, we're just feeding dolfins when we throw back almost all those fish. They keep telling me they're scarce,,,not here. And back to the gar, I've fished the Trinity from north of the locks in Centerville to the Trinity bay since the early 70's and gar (allig.spotted needle nose) are like mosquitoes. I don't target them but they're hard to ignore when they're rolling all day long in front of you, and I'm talking about huge to small. If anything I would say they're getting thicker, but I'm nothing more than the guy with a fishing rod and I will tell you I don't know it all and sometimes I have to trust people who have more info. than my ignorant observations. I would of never thought I'ld see the day when there would be limit on shark and of all things mullet, times are changing and the laws or lack of pertaining gar are too. I may not see it but would bet that my kids will open the reg. book one day and see stipulations on peggies, croakers, sand trout, eels and yes,,,,,,hardheads. When I started bow hunting for deer the laws were written by gun hunters not because they knew more but because there were more of them, and the same will be true for bow hunters and gar except you'll be at the mercy of fishermen and women that take bass, specks,billfish and so on. They'll understand conservation but will have to go on what info they're fed, bogas or not. I know a lot of fishing people and in all my years I've heard " lets go after some gar " maybe a hand full of times. Like I said earlier, we need real facts not panic.


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## Tombo

Personally I can only see the small picture. I don't have the resouces nor exposure to get the facts. 
So, like the above reply states, get the facts and we will deal with it. Numbers don't lie.


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## shadslinger

Cool info captmat.


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## Meadowlark

Thanks to Capt. Matt for some factual information. When I started reading this thread, I was open minded to signing the petition...but not now. In fact, I will support TP&W efforts. 

There is no reason for wanton killing of these magnificient fish.

Also, to think or at least imply that the Trinity River is too vast to be impacted by overkilling is simply wrong at best and very misleading. To argue that because some fish die when released after caught is reason to not support C&R is false logic. Science doesn't lie. 

Thanks again Capt.


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## capt kim

I just want to know one thing from bowfishermen who target alligator gar...

Is there such a thing as catch and release with bowfishing? What are the chances of the survival of an alligator gar that has been arrowed? 

Kim


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## Levelwind

You can use those arrows with the suction cups, like when we were kids. Or, ummhemm, when I was a kid. hahaha


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## johnmyjohn

capt kim said:


> I just want to know one thing from bowfishermen who target alligator gar...
> 
> Is there such a thing as catch and release with bowfishing? What are the chances of the survival of an alligator gar that has been arrowed?
> 
> Kim


 Kim, I'm not siding with the bow-gar guys but the chances of catch and release on those gar is about the same as the deer that get shot with a 30-06 or duck with a load of no' 4s in it. Truth be known the gar these guys kill wouldn't be a drop in the ocean compared to all the gut hooked fish we all throw back that we know aren't going to make it. We as in pole fisherpeople can't be compared to the few bow-gar guys. The pole guy's probably kill more gar. Again, we need studies not panic, just look at what I just wrote, it's all personal thought and no science. The right to take a gar with a bow is just as important as going after a billfish or red. It's impotant to someone or they wouldn't be posting it and we need to support the issue in the right direction even if it's not our idea of a way of taking fish. There's people wanting to outlaw use of croaker for bait, why????Why not outlaw shrimp? How about we outlaw fishing all together, see where all this is going. Support the sportsman and the regs. that fit the sport.

wrote it's all


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## Whitebassfisher

Since I like to fish for white bass, I have spent my share of days on the Trinity river way upstream from the lake during the spawn. There are times when there appears to be an endless supply of gar rolling on the surface above the deeper holes. Also, on days when the gar have been really thick, the lower unit hits them while running the river. In just the last 15 years, it seems like there are 10 times as many bowfisherman. I admit it disappoints me to see all the dead gar floating with arrow holes in them, plus it can make it mighty smelly up the creeks from the floating, rotting carcasses. I don't campaign against the bowfishermen, but I'm not prepared to sign petitions to help them either. I first viewed this thread 12/17/08, and finally decided to add my post.


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## capt kim

johnmyjohn said:


> Kim, I'm not siding with the bow-gar guys but the chances of catch and release on those gar is about the same as the deer that get shot with a 30-06 or duck with a load of no' 4s in it. Truth be known the gar these guys kill wouldn't be a drop in the ocean compared to all the gut hooked fish we all throw back that we know aren't going to make it. We as in pole fisherpeople can't be compared to the few bow-gar guys. The pole guy's probably kill more gar. Again, we need studies not panic, just look at what I just wrote, it's all personal thought and no science. The right to take a gar with a bow is just as important as going after a billfish or red. It's impotant to someone or they wouldn't be posting it and we need to support the issue in the right direction even if it's not our idea of a way of taking fish. There's people wanting to outlaw use of croaker for bait, why????Why not outlaw shrimp? How about we outlaw fishing all together, see where all this is going. Support the sportsman and the regs. that fit the sport.
> 
> wrote it's all


johnmyjohn, Good points, and I will agree that C/R R/R anglers can kill alligator gar and even more are probably killed by R/R anglers who are not targeting gar but who believe they are doing the ecosystem a service by killing them on purpose. I have been C/R fishing for AG in a particular area of a TX river which gets zero bowfishing pressure for 2 yrs now and have not seen a floater yet. I've released a couple of dozen AG by cutting the leader and leaving the hook in the gullet, but no dead fish on the bank yet. I know I can't guarantee they lived, but if you've ever looked down the gullet of a 100# alligator gar, a 5/0 treble looks like a #8 perch hook in the mouth of a 10# bass. I think they have a real good chance of survival, much better than a deer shot with a 30/06, no matter where it was hit.

Capt. Kim


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## jtbowfisher

johnmyjohn said:


> Kim, I'm not siding with the bow-gar guys but the chances of catch and release on those gar is about the same as the deer that get shot with a 30-06 or duck with a load of no' 4s in it. Truth be known the gar these guys kill wouldn't be a drop in the ocean compared to all the gut hooked fish we all throw back that we know aren't going to make it. We as in pole fisherpeople can't be compared to the few bow-gar guys. The pole guy's probably kill more gar. Again, we need studies not panic, just look at what I just wrote, it's all personal thought and no science. The right to take a gar with a bow is just as important as going after a billfish or red. It's impotant to someone or they wouldn't be posting it and we need to support the issue in the right direction even if it's not our idea of a way of taking fish. There's people wanting to outlaw use of croaker for bait, why????Why not outlaw shrimp? How about we outlaw fishing all together, see where all this is going. Support the sportsman and the regs. that fit the sport.
> 
> wrote it's all


Best post on this whole thread.


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## mudkat

look I'm not against C&R ,knock yourselves out enjoy these great fish.what I am saying is that in all forms of fishing some fish are going to die,that is just the way the world is.
on the letting a bow shot gar go if none of the arrows were in the bladder or guts and just in the meat,it would have a chance to survive but who knows.
what I am against is TP&W going from no restictions at all with commercial fishing allowed to very very restrictive regulation even when even they admit there is no problem with their poputations at this time.
I personally would not be against a 1-2 gator gar per day limit but no size restriction and allowances for bow and arrow.I would not have a problem with that.
I have bowfished a lot in the past 20 year almost every weekend and I have personally taken maybe 15 gator gar in that time.now I don't go after them most trips but make no mistake they are a very callenging fish with a bow.most bowfishermen don't take a single gator gar per year.trust me I know a lot of hard core bowfishermen.
I would like to see them do away with commercial fish but you do have to stop and think too ,that some people will be put out of work and you would most likely not like losing your way of life either.


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## bowfishrp

TPWD estimates that there are 400 bowfishermen in our state....that may or may not be true but the fact is that not all those 400 take a gar every YEAR! Hell I bowfish almost every weekend from March till August and while I am not a day time bowfisher it is rare that we get the chance to take a gar. These are not just idiot shortnose gar that hang out on top of the water waiting to get shot. These are predators that are hunting dinner and they see lights and go away fast. My team has taken 3 gar in the past 3-4 years and we are out there a whole lot. Didn't get one last year...saw some that were too far away but couldn't get one. 
What we need are facts on the state of Texas. I am sick of everyone showing studies done in their state and saying that gar need to be protected because they dont range all the way up to Ohio any more. It is call habitat destruction, not bowfishermen! 
My whole point to this post is that bowfishermen are not the problem. You want to point fingers, the first ones in the line should be commercial fishermen. Stop commercial fishing for gator gar and that will help tremendously.


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## capt kim

What hurts you guys more than anything are reports of bowfishermen chunking gar and other species up on the bank. In fact I've heard bowfishermen friends of mine brag about doing it.

Y'all have some serious PR work to do to repair your reputation.

Capt. Kim


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## capt.matt

*Commercial fishing needs to stop*

"the first ones in the line should be commercial fishermen. Stop commercial fishing for gator gar and that will help tremendously. " 
You got that right Bowfishrp. Now days the sportfishing dollars are way more important. If you get ride of the commercial fisherman and have some kind of reclimit the fishery should in good condition for years to come. Aligator Gar is not to popular with the general public as some good eats.:mpd:And if you are smart you should not promote A-gar as fine dining. 
But to say there should not be any regulation is foolish. The alligater gar is very slow to sexually mature. So the pursuit of the fish needs management .


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## texas two guns

Sorry for the delay, my internet privileges were revoked for a while and then my computer crashed. Anyway, I never said I oppose regulation. I oppose regulation without scientific studies. No I'm not a guide, well I guided a kid once. I shoot for a few companies in trade for merchandise, I get no money at this time. Oh and I've shot one alligator gar in my life. Then again, like some other guys I don't day fish. 

So anyway it seems that cooler heads have prevailed. The commission has heard our complaints and has told the biologist to bring the facts cause what they presented yesterday don't fly.


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## texas two guns

You guys are not happy with the Feds enforcing Snapper limits based on no studies in your area anymore than we want the state boys to force limits on us without studies. It's as simple as that!


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## B_Bop77

FYI, TPWD currently has a study on Alligator Gar and stripers in the Trininty River. They are radio tagging fish and recording movement. Don't have all the spec's yet. I'll post more when I get more info.


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## capt kim

texas two guns said:


> You guys are not happy with the Feds enforcing Snapper limits based on no studies in your area anymore than we want the state boys to force limits on us without studies. It's as simple as that!


texas two guns,

Since you are a fiberglass injection specialist, and know how easily synthetic reproductions of trophy fish can be produced, and in fact, how much more inexpensive they are than skin mounts...

Why aren't you advocating C/R of alligator gar and soliciting business from trophy anglers who do not want to kill their catch?

Kim


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## texas two guns

The fiberglass I inject is in the form a a tube (some call it an arrow), with a barbed tip on one end of it and a string attached to the other end of it. Oh and C&R bowfishing is what some people are griping about, so I take mine home with me.


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## jtbowfisher

texas two guns said:


> The fiberglass I inject is in the form a a tube (some call it an arrow), with a barbed tip on one end of it and a string attached to the other end of it. Oh and C&R bowfishing is what some people are griping about, so I take mine home with me.


LOL, So let me get this straight, your a bowfishing guide and a taxidermist. What do you do in your free time?


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## Harold Ray

I am really happy the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department is finally doing something to protect gar. They have been killed out or reduced to such a low number in most other areas of their former range that they are seldom seen and inconsequential factors in the environment. 

In fact, they are beautiful and spectacular survivors of a time long passed. They lived with the dinosaurs and 100 or more million years later they still live with us, if we don't continue killing them out. Texas is tremendously fortunate to have a number large enough to continue their species here, but they have to have protection from some who treat them as an inexhaustable resource.

The people I know who fish for gar do so with great care and little damage to the fish and fishery, and once landed they have a very rapid release. That is the way to handle gar. 

I am hoping the strictest of the rules is passed because that is the only way to save this great, prehistoric species.

Ray


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## texas two guns

well you know JT, sometimes I get to shoot a tournament or two.


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## Barrett

Yall are wasting electricity talking about gars.


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## Ducksmasher

Theres plenty of gar out there.. why not do something before its to late.. I personally dont think there really should be any sort of unregulated fishery for any species. Yes TPW is on the ball. They already know you have to have the science and data to back up any kind of proposal. Ive personally noticed a decline in the the numbers of larger gar. And interestingly enough Ive also noticed a decline in the numbers of spotted gar.


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## texas two guns

Well they evidently didn't bring any science or data to the commissioners cause they told them they won't vote for any regulation without it and were told they got till March to get the data.
So if there is plenty of gar out there, then why regulate a sport out of existence?
Kind of like catfish, why can't we take catfish? I tell you why cause the commissioners didn't think enough of us were doing it, NOT because we were taking too many.


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## capt kim

texas two guns said:


> So if there is plenty of gar out there, then why regulate a sport out of existence?


Because you guys didn't regulate yourselves, and turned a blind eye to the ones who chunk fish up on the bank. The whole sportfishing world is against you because too many of us have witnessed bowfishermen shooting up a boatload of "rough fish" for the sport of it and leaving them on the bank to rot.

Capt. Kim


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## texas two guns

Mr. I spend lots and lots of time on the water at night and during the day. I can honestly tell you that I have yet to see a floating gar, carp or buffalo with a hole in it. You see typically a dead fish with a hole in it will sink. Oh and the number of times I've seen a pile or even one dead gar, carp or buffalo on the bank rotting with a hole in it is also a big zero. Now the number of times I've seen catfish, crappie, stripers and other sport fish floating around is too numerous to count. Oh and they didn't have holes in them either. No sir, these fish were more than likely killed by hooks too deep in their gullet. Yes and the number of times I've pulled up to a ramp and smelled the stench of rotting fish bodies is also numerous and after looking around in the trash cans it was mostly from crappie or catfishermen that left the fillet remains and some that tried to pitch them back into the shallow water only to be washed up back into the ramp or under the dock.
Now, since your a captain, you must be your title says captain kim. How many fish do you kill per year. I assume that you fish at least 5 days a week. I will not assume that you keep your freezer full of fine edible fish for the frying pan because these fish are way to valuable to you as a business man to actually kill some of them. And since your such a pusher of catch and release only fishing surely you must always use circle hooks so you don't gut hook any fish. And surely use always wet your hands before touching the flesh of the fish that you make a living catching and no nets either. Even with all this, exactly how many fish do you kill from over fighting or bringing them up to quick? Oh wait, you surely use enough weight line so that you don't overplay them to the point of exhaustion. But playing the fish, isn't that the fun part? 
I mean heck let's save all the fish so you the GUIDE and Captain can stay in business. That's what it's all about isn't it, keeping you in business?


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## capt kim

texas two guns said:


> I mean heck let's save all the fish so you the GUIDE and Captain can stay in business. That's what it's all about isn't it, keeping you in business?


No it is not about keeping me, or anyone else in the business. It is about sensible management of a steadily declining continental fishery. I don't guide alligator gar trips, have never intentionally killed one and haven't made the first dime from them.

Capt. Kim


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## Freshwaterman

Take a trip up the Trinity, go up to the Lock and Dam and see the fish just left on the side.

Even take a look at the outfit up there with the new launch, shooting 1000 lbs of needlenose in a day? Come on.


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## texas two guns

Ever think maybe some hillbillies out there shooting at rolling fish with rifles and such, how about fish being hit with boats and lets not forget the commercial fisherman bycatch or casualties. I'm just saying that all the guys I know that bowfish take their fish home.
1000lbs of needle nose is not normal and that 1000lbs is replenished every year, we are talking about Alligator Gar.


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## mudkat

capt kim on your GASS furum you were bragging on the the fact that all you do for a living is guided gator gar fishing trips,so are you lying here or there?


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## bowfishrp

Have you EVER seen a bowfisherman just throw a gator gar up on the bank?!? NO!!! To a bowfisherman the gator gar is the king of fish. It would be like shooting a 15 point buck, taking a picture, and letting the buzzards eat it. Bowfishermen do not throw gator gar on the bank.


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## jtbowfisher

mudkat said:


> capt kim on your GASS furum you were bragging on the the fact that all you do for a living is guided gator gar fishing trips,so are you lying here or there?


I thought I heard he guided gator gar trips two.


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## shauntexex

the facts TP&W has as of right now don't mean jack chit! There data simply doesn't back up the decline of alligator as regards to bowfisherman PERIOD. It's time to hold the commercial fisherman and changes in ecosystems(dams, ect) accountable. In fact_ I _challenge any guys so opposed to signing the petition to go shoot a big alligator gar this year... Good luck your gonna need it you may find it harder than you think......


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## Sweet Action

shauntexex said:


> the facts TP&W has as of right now don't mean jack chit! There data simply doesn't back up the decline of alligator as regards to bowfisherman PERIOD. It's time to hold the commercial fisherman and changes in ecosystems(dams, ect) accountable. In fact_ I _challenge any guys so opposed to signing the petition to go shoot a big alligator gar this year... Good luck your gonna need it you may find it harder than you think......


I'll take you up on that challenge. In fact, how big do you want it to be?? I'm no guide or commercial fisherman but I can put you on some Big Gar. In fact, I'll take you if your interested.


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## bowfishrp

Let it go shaun, it is just a waste of time. The TPWD KNOWS they do not have enough data to justify the change. We have been to the meetings and there has not been one person there to support the change, not one. Every meeting that I have heard or been to, everyone is against the gator gar proposal.


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## shauntexex

Sweet action let's go pro.....


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## Sweet Action

shauntexex said:


> Sweet action let's go pro.....


I'm no pro...but I know were they live. Whenever you wanna go just PM me and I'll let you know the details. Give me 2 weeks notice so my buddy and I can take off from work. Thanks.:cheers:SA


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## B_Bop77

Here's the new regs.
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20090326g&nrtype=all&nrspan=2009&nrsearch


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## texas two guns

That is such ****, there is no way no how that the opposition to the new regs was beat 167 to 233. Hell we got a petition with 707 signatures to leave the regs as they are.


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## KIKO

Tile of the post "Aligator Gar under attack" for got to add "by bowfishermen". How many of you eat the Gar you stick? did is hear to tuff to clean. IMO don't find it ethical to kill a fish or an animal if you are not going to eat it. Unless it is a pest such as hogs, birds, rats.


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## gordaflatsstalker

The new regs are a good thing. Gar are great sportfish and need to be protected. Now our kids will have a better chance at one of these prehistoric beasts.


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## gordaflatsstalker

A hog is a pest but should not be let go to waste.


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## KIKO

*NO! They need to change..*

Your commercial you make money form taking people out.


texas two guns said:


> That is such ****, there is no way no how that the opposition to the new regs was beat 167 to 233. Hell we got a petition with 707 signatures to leave the regs as they are.


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## KIKO

I don't let them wast. I only kill what I can clean and take home.



gordaflatsstalker said:


> A hog is a pest but should not be let go to waste.


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## texas two guns

No, I am just a sportfisherman. I don't make money doing it.


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## bowfishrp

That is not the POINT! The TPWD made a change to the regulations to protect the alligator gar AND THEY HAD NO DATA!!!! They even admitted it at the meeting! I know I was there and so was Texas2guns! 

If this wasn't stupid enough their biologist said the gator gar population in the upper Trinity river was either at maximum capacity or ABOVE max. There are tons of gar taken by commercial fishermen in that part of the river and their numbers are maxed out NOW! That means that in 5 yeas with only bowfishermen chasing them we will have a river full of stunted gar because the polititians that run the TPWD were stupid. And yes, it will happen because there are just not enough bowfishermen to offset the number taken from commercial fishing.


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## Texican89

Bowfishermen like me want to bowfish and thats why it hurts us. What if they put a 1 a day limit on all fish you would be ****** to. thats all i have to say. I work 12 hr days and only get to go once a month for a night and only get to shoot one. Sorry that sucks.


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