# Browning Bar 30.06 Reloads



## asolde (May 22, 2004)

I have been shooting factory Hornady 165 gr interlock BTSP and have shot them well. I have a friend that reloads so I asked him to reload some Hornady 165 gr interlock BTSP. He loaded them up with IMR 4831 @ 57 gr per round. I notice more recoil with the reloads. According to the Hornady reloading manual I should be shooting around 2800 fps thats the same as the factory loads. My question is, I shoot a Browning BAR safari 30.06 am I hurting the gun gas operating system by shooting a hotter load?


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

Thats a darn good question and I would be interested in knowing as well.
Hope someone can fill us in.
Hey Jammer you out there.


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## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

asolde said:


> I have been shooting factory Hornady 165 gr interlock BTSP and have shot them well. I have a friend that reloads so I asked him to reload some Hornady 165 gr interlock BTSP. He loaded them up with IMR 4831 @ 57 gr per round. I notice more recoil with the reloads. According to the Hornady reloading manual I should be shooting around 2800 fps thats the same as the factory loads. My question is, I shoot a Browning BAR safari 30.06 am I hurting the gun gas operating system by shooting a hotter load?


I recommend you got to a faster burning powder for a 3006 autoloader.
As the bullet moves down the barrel of a rifle, the pressure increases for the first couple of inches and then begins to drop off. The rate that pressure rises, then drops off, is determined by the bullet weight along with the burning rate of the powder. The weight of the powder charge only affects how high the pressure goes, not the rate it goes up and down. IMR 4831 is pretty slow burning and gives a much higher pressure at the gas port than faster burning powders like IMR 4895 or IMR 3031. Too much gas pressure at the gas port, can cause a auto loader to open before the bullet has exited the muzzle. This can wreck the rifle, because there is high pressure gas vented back into the action.
Over the years, I've saw several 3006 auto loaders that were ruined by Hodgon 4831(very close to the same burning rate as IMR 4831) hand loads. These same reloads would have been perfectly safe in a non auto loading rifle.
Auto loading rifles lock up just as strong as other rifles, their weakness is, they unlock before they are supposed to, if the pressure is to high at the gas port.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Couple of things here: As you said the factory load for that bullet shows 2800 fps. The load your friend is making for you is below the maximum in the reloading manual - max load of IMR 4831 shows 59.5 gr. But your load of 57 gr is only 4.2% below max, which would be about 53.5 gr- just to be safe. Most reloaders recommend a starting load with any gun of about 10% below maximum. Every gun/chamber/etc. is different, and you need to start light just to make sure.

If everything is normal on your gun you should actually be getting a bit below 2800 fps with that load. The manual shows needing 57.8gr to get 2800.

Now the real important thing is that Hornady has what they call their light magnum loads, and for your bullet in 30-06 it has a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps, quite a bit more. It also recommends *NOT USING THESE LOADS IN AUTO LOADERS !! *

I would try my best to chronograph those loads, and see how hot they really are. Also ask you friend if he is using small base dies in reloading your rounds. Small base dies should always be used for auto loaders, as they size the brass a bit more to facilitate easier feeding. What effect that might have on pressure/velocity, I'm not sure. Also is your bolt hard to open, or do your primers show a "splash." (Looks like you dropped a marble into water and the resulting "splash" looking mark on the primer) These are signs of loads being to hot.

Also give hornady a call and tell them what you're doing. They are usually most helpful. 1-800-338-3220.

Hope this helps a bit,

THE JAMMER



Redfishr said:


> Thats a darn good question and I would be interested in knowing as well.
> Hope someone can fill us in.
> Hey Jammer you out there.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jammer is correct 57 grains of 4831 on 165 gr bullet is well below maximum load. I have loaded 60 grains of 4831 for years with Hornady spire points hunting elk and deer. No problems. Actually a case full with remington brass is almost 60 gr. Thats what I load (case full) on my 06.

Charlie


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## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

Yall are missing something very important here.
While 57 gr of IMR 4831 X 165 gr bullet is not a max load for a bolt action 3006 rifle, it not a safe load in a gas operated 3006 auto loading rifle designed to shoot factory ammo.
Max breach pressure for such a load is probably quite a bit below what the breach of a modern rifle will stand. Max breach pressure is the limiting factor on any rifle EXCEPT a gas operated auto loader. With the auto loader, the pressure in the barrel when the bullet passes the gas port is just as important. It must be within a fixed tolerance. If its too low the gun will shot stroke. If its too high, the action will open too early. 
If the action opens early enough, the bullet will still be in the barrel and high pressure gas will be vented into the action. High pressure gas vented into the action will wreck things.
When engineers set up to load factory ammo, they have a set of spec they have to match. These are a time pressure curve and velocity. They pay much more attention to the time pressure curve than they do to velocity. This is because other engineers are going to/have designed gas operated auto loading rifles to use that ammo. 
Gas port orifices of auto loading rifles are held to a very close tolerance for each design rifle, but they are not all the same size for all caliber rifles. This is because each caliber ammo has a different time pressure curve and requires a different size orifice.
BTW: A non standard time pressure curve is why Hornady labels its Lite Magnum ammo as NOT FOR AUTOS. 
In a 3006 cartridge, IMR 4831 gives a out of tolerance time pressure curve when compared to factory ammo. In a bolt gun, this doesn't matter. In a auto loader, it can kill you.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Awww come on now gun doc... and I know you know all about guns but action opening early before the bullet leaves ?? Does that really happen ?? Shot that load, "case of 4831" and 165 gr. hornady in Remington auto loader old 742 for years and never missed a beat. I guess that load was in the tolerance of the gun.

Charlie


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## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

CHARLIE said:


> Awww come on now gun doc... and I know you know all about guns but action opening early before the bullet leaves ?? Does that really happen ?? Shot that load, "case of 4831" and 165 gr. hornady in Remington auto loader old 742 for years and never missed a beat. I guess that load was in the tolerance of the gun.
> 
> Charlie


Charlie, its one of those things that most people "get away with". The trouble is, there have been enough that didn't "get away with it" that I know its unsafe. 
I've examined several Remington auto loader 3006s that were wrecked by 4831 reloads. I've also talked to a number of gunsmiths over the years that have also seen the same thing happen. The worst I saw on a Remington was when gas pushed the opening in the bottom of the receiver out over a inch on each side. This let the fire control(Remingtons name for the trigger group) to pivot around the rear pin and mangle a couple of fingers. The magazine on this rifle was blown out at the top so bad that ammo would no longer say in it.
Back before the factories got so down on reloaded ammo, Remington would tell you it was "OK" to use powders like IMR 4895 or IMR 3031 in their 3006 auto loaders, but not anything that was slower burning. Now they tell you all reloads are evil.
And no Charlie, that load is not within tolerance for your gun, its just not quite far enough out of tolerance to have caused it to blow up YET.

You may get away with it forever, but then it might bite you on your next shot.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Gotta agree with Charlie here,

IMR 4831 is a pretty commonly used powder for the 30-06. As a matter of fact in the reloading manual for Hornady it and Varget are the two most recommended powders. Plus his load is well below a max load.

There is nothing in Hornady's reloading manual regarding not using those loads in auto loaders, any of the loads. Whereas Hornady does recommend against using their light magnum loads in auto loaders. Since they are clear enough to do that with that load, you would think that if there were a problem with any of their published handloads, they would do the same-- and they haven't.

By the way I noticed a real dunderhead in my first post: I said, "Is your bolt hard to open." On a BAR???? DUH. Sorry. I was just thinking of various things to look for which might indicate a hot load.

Again, I would check for signs of over pressure, chronograph the load, and call Hornady for their input and wisdom.

THE JAMMER



CHARLIE said:


> Awww come on now gun doc... and I know you know all about guns but action opening early before the bullet leaves ?? Does that really happen ?? Shot that load, "case of 4831" and 165 gr. hornady in Remington auto loader old 742 for years and never missed a beat. I guess that load was in the tolerance of the gun.
> 
> Charlie


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## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

THE JAMMER said:


> Gotta agree with Charlie here,
> 
> IMR 4831 is a pretty commonly used powder for the 30-06. As a matter of fact in the reloading manual for Hornady it and Varget are the two most recommended powders. Plus his load is well below a max load.
> 
> ...


I agree, IMR4831 is a very good powder for the 3006 IF the ammo is to be used in a rifle that is NOT a gas operated auto loader. 
Chronographing the load will tell you nothing useful about this problem and there should be no sign of excessive pressure with the load listed. To diagnose this one, you need to know when the bolt is opening in relation to when the bullet exits the barrel and what the bolt velocity is after it opens. To find that info, you need very high speed movie cameras, that are capable of showing the bullet leaving the barrel. I doubt any one on this board has such equipment(I wish I did).
The pressure this problem is concerned with happens when the bullet passes the gas port and has dropped considerably below the max pressure the load generated.
BTW: One of my favorite loads for a bolt action 3006, was 59 gr of the old surplus H4831 with a 165 gr Sierra hollow point. That load killed quite a few deer for me, back when my main deer rifle was a 06.
As for Hornady not mentioning the problem, this is not just a problem with one powder in one caliber. It affects all gas operated auto loaders to some extent. It depends on what caliber the rifle is chambered for and what burning rate powders factory ammo uses in that caliber. Some powders that work very well in bolt action rifles, are not suitable at all for a auto loader in the same caliber.
Jammer, I recommend you make a call to Hornady or Sierra (Serra has some very knowledgeable engineers you can also talk to) about this one.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Hey doc

Seems to me that the slower burning 4831(yes the old surplus stuff we used to buy for a buck a pound and put it old coffee cans) would produce less pressure then say 4350 or what have you. Therefore the pressure at the gas port after the bullet has passed would be less. Am I wrong again ??

Charlie


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Gundoctor,

Well I took your advice and talked to Todd (800-338-3220) at Hornady tech support at 9:30 this morning. He said what you are talking about *will* *absolutely NOT happen with any loads listed in Hornady's reloading manual- *assuming of course proper reloading procedures- which is the variable none of us knows right now- we don't know about the guy who reloaded the cartridges. He did say that it will happen with their light magnum loads, and that is why they put the warning out regarding that.

Again, he said the load in question here should have no problem whatsoever in that firearm, nor should any other load listed in their reloading manual.

Regarding chronographing not helping- are you saying that if he chronographed that load, and it showed 3100 fps, that wouldn't tell us the load might be a bit hot????????

THE JAMMER



gundoctor said:


> I agree, IMR4831 is a very good powder for the 3006 IF the ammo is to be used in a rifle that is NOT a gas operated auto loader.
> Chronographing the load will tell you nothing useful about this problem and there should be no sign of excessive pressure with the load listed. To diagnose this one, you need to know when the bolt is opening in relation to when the bullet exits the barrel and what the bolt velocity is after it opens. To find that info, you need very high speed movie cameras, that are capable of showing the bullet leaving the barrel. I doubt any one on this board has such equipment(I wish I did).
> The pressure this problem is concerned with happens when the bullet passes the gas port and has dropped considerably below the max pressure the load generated.
> BTW: One of my favorite loads for a bolt action 3006, was 59 gr of the old surplus H4831 with a 165 gr Sierra hollow point. That load killed quite a few deer for me, back when my main deer rifle was a 06.
> ...


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## flymost (Nov 6, 2006)

That's good to hear. I have been reloading a 300WM BAR for years with 70 grains of 4350 and some other loads of 4831 and even 7828 with no problems at all. I also loaded some max loads for my 7mm BAR as well with no problems. It is nice to know that these loads should not be unsafe. In the past I have noticed a friends remmington seemed to "slam" the bolt back a little louder and harder than my BAR's even with factory ammo. Maybe not as high quality of a rifle???


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## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

THE JAMMER said:


> Gundoctor,
> 
> Well I took your advice and talked to Todd (800-338-3220) at Hornady tech support at 9:30 this morning. He said what you are talking about *will* *absolutely NOT happen with any loads listed in Hornady's reloading manual- *assuming of course proper reloading procedures- which is the variable none of us knows right now- we don't know about the guy who reloaded the cartridges. He did say that it will happen with their light magnum loads, and that is why they put the warning out regarding that.
> 
> ...


I just had a nice talk with Tod also and he asked about this website, so he can check to see if he's being misquoted or not.
He doesn't seem to be concerned with IMR 4831 being too slow for 3006 auto loaders like I am, but he does agree that it puts more pressure at the gas port than faster burning powders. He also agrees that too much pressure at the gas port can open a gas operated rifle before the pressure in the barrel drops enough to be safe. He did tell me that too much pressure at the gas port is one of the reasons they recommend not to shoot Hornady Lite Mag ammo in a auto loader.

Jammer, you didn't read what I said about Chronographing this load, so here is a copy and paste of it. 
"Chronographing the load will tell you nothing useful about this problem." 
By that I meant it wouldn't tell you anything about how high the gas pressure was when the bullet passes the gas port. I have never thought this was a over pressure problem.

BTW: Here is a quote from JW Hornady(founder of Hornady) in a conversation I had with him at a trade show in Houston many years ago: "If the brass life is good, the load isn't too hot for that rifle". I thought about that for a while and decided the man was very correct in his thinking and adopted that for my final decision about a particular load being too not or not. 
After I use all the signs recommended in the loading manuals to work up a load, I start with a once fired case and load it until the case head is wore out. That generally is when the primer pocket expands enough that primers won't stay in. If a once fired case is still good after 12 re-loadings, I consider the load to be safe in that gun. I discard brass after 10 re-loadings.

I did learn something this morning I wasn't aware of, Hornady does give data for a semi auto rifle in 3006(M1 Garand) and they do not recommend any slow burning powders for it. The reason, high pressure at the gas port will bend the operating rod. The Garand's gas port is so close to the muzzle that opening too early is not a real problem, but bent operating rods are a real problem with Garands and slow burning powder. So if high gas port pressure is bending Garand operating rods, then it ain't doing the Browning any favors.
The reason I wasn't aware that Hornady gave data for the M1, is because I haven't bought a new manual in years. I worked up all the loads I use many years ago, then recorded them in my own loading manual. For liability reasons, I make it a point not to share this data with others, because it may/may not be safe in their rifles. For the same reason I don't quote load data I get from books. If I acquire a new caliber rifle, I guess I'll have to go buy a new manual to see where to start working up loads for it.


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## Woodrow (Jun 17, 2004)

Something is not adding up for me...

Did Hornady say WHY they don't recommend the LM loads in autoloaders?

The general rule (without getting too technical) is Pressure = Velocity with all other things being equal; however, an exception to that is Hornady's LM loads (and Federal's High Energy). The increased velocity in the LM loads is acheived as a result of the "special" powder they use.

I have to assume that those LM loads produce the same (or very, very similar) amount of pressure as their "Custom" loads, otherwise how would we (consumers) know they are safe in all bolt actions, etc? (In today's legal climate that is not a risk I can see a big manf taking)

The Custom loads pretty much match up with all the other manf's factory rounds, which tells me they are not underloaded per say. 

So if the pressure from the LM is the same as the Customs, then why are LM not recommended for auto loaders?

Seems to me that GunDoc must be onto something...?


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## Woodrow (Jun 17, 2004)

In regards to the orginal post, if the mystery reloader is using magnum primers then that could explain the difference...right?


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## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

CHARLIE said:


> Hey doc
> 
> Seems to me that the slower burning 4831(yes the old surplus stuff we used to buy for a buck a pound and put it old coffee cans) would produce less pressure then say 4350 or what have you. Therefore the pressure at the gas port after the bullet has passed would be less. Am I wrong again ??
> 
> Charlie


Yep Charlie you're incorrect on this one.
In a 3006, a max load of surplus H 4831 didn't build as much peak pressure as a max load of IMR4350, but the pressure stayed higher for a lot longer time. 
This is due to the fact that surplus H4831 is much slower burning and peak pressure occurs some what farther down the barrel than it does with IMR4350. That makes the pressure higher at any point past where surplus H4831 peaks.
In calibers such as 300 Win Mag, surplus H4831 would build just as much pressure as any IMR powder available back then. It all has to do with how big the case is in relation to how big the bore diameter is, along with how heavy the bullet is

BTW: You were getting ripped off at a buck a pound. I used to buy it for $.75/one pound coffee can full. A one pound coffee can will hold about 2 pounds of powder. Surplus H4895 was real expensive back then, it was $1.25 for that coffee can full.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Remember the original question here was: "because I am experiencing more recoil, am I hurting my gas system because of shooting a hotter load." And I think regardless of what's happening with the gas- when it's coming out etc., chronographing the load will at least tell him how fast the bullet's coming out, and give him some kind of an idea of how hot his load might be. 

Woodrow might have the answer with his statement about magnum primers- which was something I had meant to mention earlier. I think the guy who started this thread would help everyone out by letting us know the components his friend used in his loads.

As we all know different speed powders burn at different rates, and one powder might give a greater perceived recoil than another one with approximately the same muzzle velocity. It might be that his perceived increase in recoil might only be due to a different burning rate of powder. I.E. black powder gives a shove instead of a kick.

This has been a tremendous thread. I've learned a lot from Gun Doctor about auto loaders and gas expansion and so forth. This has been very educational.

Thanks to all,

THE JAMMER


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

I have learned alot to.
Thanks guys.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Im having a little problem with the pressure beeing too great (down the barrel) with all the extra area or length. I am now understanding how the slower burning powder could have more pressure since it is burning longer than the faster stuff. My stupid logic would say this, so much area for pressure not to build "entire barrel length the pressure would never be too great", (well sort of). I think the autos blow because of improper loading or less strength than bolt actions not gas operating systems. I can understand bent operating rods. I know, I just dont understand.. 

This has been a great post..

Charlie


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## asolde (May 22, 2004)

Thank you for all of the information. I am very new to reloading and I want to begin to learn how since the price of ammuniton is so high. I like to shoot at least once a week. Here's my reload info.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

That load will shoot forever. Its not too hot in fact it is a litttle downloaded. Should give good accuracy and good hunting round. Its probably a compressed round (powder compressed by the bullet) which is not a bad thing. 

Charlie


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## AlvinBigDog (Aug 2, 2007)

Better to be on the conservative side and not load too hot for a BAR. I USED to shoot a rather hot hand load in a Browning 7MM mag BAR. I ended up having to retire that particular nail driver when the bolt carriier sleeve fractured not once but twice. I now shoot a bolt action, because the hot loads apparently created more problems than just the bolt carrier sleeve in the auto loader. Just my opinion and personal experience. PS: Mine was an older Belgian made BAR which Browning would no longer cover for free, as it was over 25 years old. LONG LIVE RUGER!


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