# New Buggy class needed?



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

Good morning everyone I've been thinking about this for a while now..I think a 3rd nitro class is needed badly. It would make the racing much more competitive at our (Bigger) hometown races..I think it would keep more racers coming out more and more..Their are a lot of guys that aren't really fast enough to run expert myself included in this..But these guys are too fast for sportsman after all sportsman is really for beginners is it not? We need a sportsman an Expert And a Pro class the turnouts we have warrant this all three would be full..Most of the faster guys running sportsman that Ive talked to about running expert say they don't have a chance against peeps like JB or smiley just to name a few and they are right..I love these guys but plain and simple they are on a different level then most of us..It would be way more fun knowing you have a chance to win when you sign up for a race..And I'm sure most of the pro guys I'm talking about would like this as well as it would keep their races clean and FAST lol.. I can't tell you how many times i've seen someone lapping a guy for the 2nd or 3rd time and get taken out that sucks for both guys we really need a 3rd class.


----------



## Tha skinny (Dec 15, 2010)

Hmmm.. Sounds good to me but then how many driver will be in the pro class?


----------



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

i could name 10 or 15 right off the top of my head..Should be any racer that's sponsored because at that point they are considered pro..I'm not saying we should run three at every race just the bigger ones make things fair for everyone. And again just an idea.


----------



## Jasoncb (Jun 25, 2010)

Agreed!!

Phil you said you have been thinking about this for a while... Was it a multiple flusher this morning?


----------



## RevoUsa (Jan 20, 2011)

+1

Just starting out in the racing scene it can be extremly intimidating racing with the likes of Smiley, Jason, Jermey! Competitive none the less I still raced! Had an awsome time and learned alot, but knew there was not a chance !


----------



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

Jasoncb said:


> Agreed!!
> 
> Phil you said you have been thinking about this for a while... Was it a multiple flusher this morning?


 Something like that.haha


----------



## cjtamu (Sep 22, 2004)

Good idea Phil, thought that in the past too. I think RC Pro has that rule in the National series races, can't remeber if it's any sponsorship, or maybe 50% deal or chassis that kicks you into Pro Class.


----------



## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

I dunno man.....I see exactly what you're saying, but looking at the HARC entries, we average about 35-40 nitro buggies.......do we really want classes of 10-12 people??

And even then, I would bet you my hard-earned money that even splitting it up 3 ways, there would still be 2-3 people dominating each class.

Not trying to be contrary....just think of both sides of the coin.

I'm definitely interested though.......I can think of a lot of people who would like to hear this. And I'm looking for some new ideas for next year for HARC to keep things fresh and exciting, and this is one I haven't thought of. 

More input from others please...........maybe from people who run the races? Who would sign up for this "Pro" class???

One thing I REFUSE to do is dilute the Expert Nitro Buggy class too much..........that is the class that puts on the big show and gets spectators interested.


----------



## skillett (Mar 7, 2010)

Break the classes up Courtny I'll race what ever
yall put together.........But consider this the only
pro driver that makes all your races is Jake and Tanner 
You don't see anybody else......Unless Harc is at Mikes.....
and that's a fact........Why don't you sandbaggers grow some
and race in expert.......You will kill the payouts....

look how many heats were in sportsman at Vertigo.
I can count 10 drivers that need to be in expert.
The only thing. sandbaggers want is a garranted 
spot in the Amain and it don't work that away...
I got a year and bumped.......

What you should do Courtney is make your top
10 Nitro buggys bump to expert
That way you don't have a flooded sportsman
class full of sandbaggers..........


----------



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

skillett said:


> Break the classes up Courtny I'll race what ever
> yall put together.........But consider this the only
> pro driver that makes all your races is Jake and Tanner
> You don't see anybody else......Unless Harc is at Mikes.....
> ...


The problem with that is you have more guys in expert that really shouldnt be there. if someone is more than a lap off pace they are in the wrong class.


----------



## Jeremy Cupps (Oct 31, 2009)

So does the pro class include all the people that the shops help out? just curious?


----------



## Jasoncb (Jun 25, 2010)

All this coming from a person who races expert in harc and intermediate in rc pro.


----------



## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Guys, this whole debate really boils down to ego semantics. How good or bad we feel about where we placed and the labeling that goes with it. 

I remember back in the day when there was no sportsman and we were all bunched up and I was in the E or F main. It didnt bother me then I just tried winning that main to feel good and knew I had alot of room for growth. 

Having a "PRO" class would further make the really good guys feel "good" and the avg. guy feel better about himself cuz he would make the A a main again instead of being in the B or C main. Again semantics to pet our feelings and egos. Is it a bad idea? Naaa I'm just calling it what it is. A good middle of the road idea on this might be run the expert quals as normal to see who shows and who is "hot" that day/race and when you get to the mains the top 10 Guys get separated into the new main called "PRO". (save time too)

New questions with a PRO class:

Would the "PRO" class get more run time in their main?

Would the old Expert B/C guys who now are Expert A main again have the same run times as they used too? or would it be increased because they are now awesome Amain drivers now? 

If reg expert A and the pro class got more time would that not make the evenings on big races that already get alot of criticism for running to late get even later???

Pro class would probably be 10-12 guys most likely, so would the guy who got last place in PRO class now "feel" worse since he beat NO ONE in his class? (I thought this idea was to spare the "feelings" of others) and would he then cry about being put in that class and whine about going back to regular expert since he wasn't cutting it in "PRO" class?

Last Harc Electric buggy as a whole had a bigger showing amongst buggies didn't it? so with that trend were we going to try this in Electric 1st then Gas?

Well I'm not saying it is a BAD idea cuz the reasons for it are sound, but I'm just saying it does pose its own host of new questions.


----------



## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

The whole thing about this is that people do not run their respective classes. If you are a true sportsman, run sportsman, if you are a true expert, run expert. Yeah there is gonna be a fine line in where you THINK you should be. And everyone has a different opinion where everyone else should be. That is where the problem lies.
For me, for instance, I run expert, I have been doing this long enough that I know I am in the expert class. If a specific race considers a chassis sponsorship to disqualify me from running expert and I need to be in pro. Then so be it, I run Pro, take my arse whoopin like a man and learn to get faster. I know I am not fast enough to be even in a D main in pro, i get my but handed to me in expert most of the time....
I am all for a class change.
There needs to be a Beginner/Novice, Intermediate, Open and Pro. I know that the turn outs at alot of local club races do not warrant this but if the class is offered at every club race then it might just surprise you. I know alot of new guys are way to intimidated to run a class that they know they have no chance at even being competative.
Well, that is my 2 cents worth.....
Bottom Line Guys, Just run the class you belong in......


----------



## Jeremy Cupps (Oct 31, 2009)

We are willing to try what ever, i like this i think its a great idea we just got to make it clear on the guidelines of each class.


----------



## Bigj (Jul 22, 2007)

Need and ole folks class


----------



## katjim00 (Jan 8, 2009)

I obviously don't race anymore, but I still consider myself to be fairly knowledgeable on the subject. For once I agree with CV. Should that be in bold .

If you break it up you will not have many racers in the "pro" group even at a big race. They need the slower cars on the track too just like the slower cars need the faster ones. Both sets of racers make the other ones faster. Sandbaggers will always exist because for some their ego to win outweighs their desire to advance. 

Phil, I have to disagree on the idea that if you are more than one lap off the leader you are in the wrong class. I know what you mean but I think your wording could have been better. I have seen countless national race results where guys finished 6+ laps down and never broke or flamed out. It is what it is and "it" was not theirs that day. But I see where you are coming from. You are in that limbo area where you are not fast enough or consistent enough to win expert but too "fast" to enter sportsman. Its kind of like the mid life crisis of rc racing. Do what I did when I raced, accept that you will never "win" a race but just do it to have fun and feel like you got a little better each time you raced.

If any of this in incoherent I smoked a brisket starting at 6:30am till 6:30pm and consumed a rather large quantity of adult beverage from 2:30pm till present.


----------



## killerkustoms (Nov 6, 2008)

You have a very good point Phil, i would like to see an intermediate class. I still enjoy racing and if I have to race expert I just look at it as an expensive practice session. I do understand it is not easy to have many classes so till then I will run whatever you guys provide. I do see myself attending the bigger races just so I feel like I do have a chance against other sportsman.


----------



## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

katjim00 said:


> I obviously don't race anymore, but I still consider myself to be fairly knowledgeable on the subject. For once I agree with CV. Should that be in bold .
> 
> If you break it up you will not have many racers in the "pro" group even at a big race. They need the slower cars on the track too just like the slower cars need the faster ones. Both sets of racers make the other ones faster. Sandbaggers will always exist because for some their ego to win outweighs their desire to advance.
> 
> ...


 haha, along with all the smokers smoke....could be dangerous...yet FUN.....How you been Jim....how's the baby...well prolly not a baby anymore....


----------



## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

Can we start a class where we just have fun racing and hanging out with friends?


----------



## mwbmod74 (Dec 9, 2009)

Can we start a class where we just have fun racing and hanging out with friends?  And all hold hands and sing Kum-Ba-YA!!!


----------



## katjim00 (Jan 8, 2009)

Paul he is growing like a weed.....check out my avatar. Everyone is well Paul thanks for asking. Good to see you on here once in a while. Hope you and your family are doing well to. I bet your boy is all grown up now.

Nik.....That is the beer drinking/rc car playing class. That is the class you are seeking. That class is readily available at any unorganized rc event where everyone is there to have fun and drink cold ones and just play with thier cars instead of "racing" them. hahahahaha


----------



## Jasoncb (Jun 25, 2010)

.....


----------



## YNOT3D (Feb 16, 2011)

Interesting thread. I am trying to figure out if the issue is sandbagging or the need for another class. Like Jim, I do not race much, however I will give some thoughts based off my past 35 years of competitive radio control activity. 

Sandbagging. Been there, done that, victim and guilty. The way I have seen it done in the past is; previous years results. The winner plus the top 10 or 10% would be required to move up to the next class. This is how it works in airplanes, AMA and IMAC pattern in their 4 classes. The only move up not required is Advanced to Masters. Masters is truly a world championship level. In some pylon racing we did the same thing. Sportsman champion must move to expert. It was the same plane, just more motor. 

I think in the old THRC days, there was a mandatory bump up to expert for the top in points from the previous year.

1.	I have also seen where an event organizer or R/D, moved a competitor up in classes because it was evident they were in the wrong class. Now if we have a driver in sportsman who should be in expert, move his *****. This can be at the discretion of the R/D. As the R/D for many THRC events, I moved a couple of people. If they don


----------



## Tha skinny (Dec 15, 2010)

Here's my issue by with bumping on points.... If you show up to all races In a series you still will have the points to bump to the next class.. Versus someone that is way faster and can't make the other events because of larger events going on in the area. Bump ups should be done with care in my opinion. Look here everyone runs in a whole. Not by just showing up to and containing points.


----------



## CristianTabush (Apr 8, 2005)

*Don't be mediocre...*

For what it's worth, I am not much of an off roader, but do come out to events once in a while and this is what I have seen around recently.

If you add another class, you will dilute your classes. This was the case at the Lousiana State Champs that I went with Joor a couple of weeks back. There was like 20 guys in Sportsman, 20 guys in Expert and 7-8 guys in Pro. Was this a better solution? I don't know- It's all relative. What I can say, is as someone that does not do Nitro I found it kind of redundant. The guys at the top of Expert would have competed just fine in Pro. The guys that stunk in Expert would have stunk in Sportsman too. What was lame was to see only 7 guys in Pro. As a spectator, I wanted to see more cars battle it out.

As Jim stated, there is mighty purgatory of RC when you are a fringe A Main guy. Regardless of the class you are in. There will always be people too fast for one class and too slow for the next, and different guys will handle it differently. Some guys rather stay and win Sportsman to make themselves feel better. Some guys have more fire under their belly and strive to get better, they move up and they work hard at improving.

This is probably where race management has to come in and if a guy is totally dominating Sportsman, they must make drivers move up, and if a guy is driving poorly in Expert, they should probably ask them to move down to Sportsman.

What I can tell you, is as someone that has raced at the highest levels, and won- is that it takes work. I won 2 Mini-Z World Championships through hard work and dedication. I have made many A Mains at Nationals through hard work. I almost beat Smiley last week at off-road through hard work (and a little luck  ). I just made my first A-main at an Electric 8th scale regional race through hard work. Jason Branham did this the same way. Joor did this the same way. Tebo did it the same way.

There have been times where I have gotten my *** handed by guys that I used to beat a long time ago handily. And it hurts my ego. But instead of asking about having another class, I work harder. I strive to not be mediocre. Because in the long run, adding another class, so that you don't have to work harder at being better, is settling for mediocrity.


----------



## bcrase95 (Jan 24, 2011)

CristianTabush said:


> For what it's worth, I am not much of an off roader, but do come out to events once in a while and this is what I have seen around recently.
> 
> If you add another class, you will dilute your classes. This was the case at the Lousiana State Champs that I went with Joor a couple of weeks back. There was like 20 guys in Sportsman, 20 guys in Expert and 7-8 guys in Pro. Was this a better solution? I don't know- It's all relative. What I can say, is as someone that does not do Nitro I found it kind of redundant. The guys at the top of Expert would have competed just fine in Pro. The guys that stunk in Expert would have stunk in Sportsman too. What was lame was to see only 7 guys in Pro. As a spectator, I wanted to see more cars battle it out.
> 
> ...


i 150% agree with this!!


----------



## skillett (Mar 7, 2010)

That was awsome!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for that.

I joke, talk smack and get mad like anyone else
but I never mean or take anything personal we make this sport.
As for as getting around the arse spanking , you just can't get 
around it .I'm getting mine now and I wouldn't want any of you sportsman
racers to miss out on it.....haha


----------



## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

When I left nitro, I was in the same spot too..........stuck at the bottom of the Expert A-main, but too fast for sportsman. But I continue to practice and try new things at each race, and I'm steadily (but slowly) getting better and inching my way towards the upper level. So patience is the key here...........

This isn't about anybody sandbagging. I see this EVERY year where there is someone in each class dominating at the top an should probably move up, but moving up puts them at the lower to middle. This is all part of the game guys.

Go back and take a look at the points and look at the names of the guys who regularly show up and then think about what class they would fall into if there were three instead of two classes. You'd have the exact scenario that Christian is describing.


----------



## Tha skinny (Dec 15, 2010)

I guess really the main reason I stay in the class I am at now is I have a great time running with the guys I am now. We fight week in and week to shave off tenths. There's about 12 or so of us that are constantly doing this. Most of us are now in the consistent low 24 range and only getting better. 
But after thinking about it... Is it really worth having 3 buggy classes for just our Houston series races? What I do believe though, is you guys should... Or atleast I would want to run in the same group of guys I'm competitive with. I.e...........RC PRO races and such. If you run intermediate in rc pro.. Just run sportsman in Houston series races. The racing for you is going to be more enjoyable and you won't have to think to yourself all the time, where are the top 3 running so I can pull over.. Lol
When I first started racing rc My main class was electric onroad. I ran the sportsman group then went to novice. With only having 8 people in the class it was great racing cause you were head to toe with those same guys every weekend battling for the "pro spot" at the end of the 6 month period or so. All of us were pretty much on the same pace give or take the ones who have bad weekends and such.............


----------



## JustinK (Jan 17, 2009)

I'm one of those in between guys. I've raced sportsman one year and expert one year going on my 2nd year of expert this year. I'm not in the same league as Jason, Jake, and Smiley.

I agree that there is not enough Pro's at HARC events to have a separate Pro class except maybe when we race at Mikes. Look at the National RC Pro, your lucky to get 15 Pros. I drive well enough I don't "take out" the leader if i'm getting lapped in a 20 minute race. I find it fun if they pass me to try to follow them as best I can to get faster, or drive their lines, or figure out what section they are so much faster then me in. I look at it this way as long as I'm about TQ or better compared to sportsman I don't feel bad racing in expert, even knowing I might not win that many. 

But that being said, I've won twice in expert once at Vertigo and the other at the River Track. Sure not all the fast guys were there but hell if we had a pro class who would have been in that when I was winning in expert? LoL. If I didn't race with the fast guys and "settled" I would not be changing my roll center, shock springs, diff fluid, and shock oil's to try to get faster during the day.

We are lucky in Houston to have so may skilled pro's. I'd say the most compared to any other Texas city. That is a good problem.


----------



## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

CristianTabush said:


> For what it's worth, I am not much of an off roader, but do come out to events once in a while and this is what I have seen around recently.
> 
> If you add another class, you will dilute your classes. This was the case at the Lousiana State Champs that I went with Joor a couple of weeks back. There was like 20 guys in Sportsman, 20 guys in Expert and 7-8 guys in Pro. Was this a better solution? I don't know- It's all relative. What I can say, is as someone that does not do Nitro I found it kind of redundant. The guys at the top of Expert would have competed just fine in Pro. The guys that stunk in Expert would have stunk in Sportsman too. What was lame was to see only 7 guys in Pro. As a spectator, I wanted to see more cars battle it out.
> 
> ...


I could not have said this better and this is exactly how I feel. I moved up to expert probably a year earlier than I should have (3 years ago now, I think?) and do not think it hurt me one bit. What do you think will make you faster, trying to get around guys that are slower than you, or trying to follow and learn the guys lines that are faster than you? If you're sandbagging, you really are just settling for mediocrity.


----------



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

Yea this thread went way south..For the record it has nothing to do with sandbagging it was an idea to give everyone a better chance on race day facts are facts some guys could practice everyday and never beat some of our fast guys that's the bottom line. I do agree that you should have fun and all that but if you don't race to win *** are you racing for? lol


Its not about racing guys slower than you its about racing guys that are the same speed keeps the racing tight and competitive.


----------



## Jasoncb (Jun 25, 2010)

Big Phil said:


> Yea this thread went way south..For the record it has nothing to do with sandbagging it was an idea to give everyone a better chance on race day facts are facts some guys could practice everyday and never beat some of our fast guys that's the bottom line. I do agree that you should have fun and all that but if you don't race to win *** are you racing for? lol
> 
> Its not about racing guys slower than you its about racing guys that are the same speed keeps the racing tight and competitive.


 Agreed... It's really fun to race with people that are the same speed as me, like Phillip, Larry, Marcus, Skinny, James, Ryan, etc.... I really enjoy going out and competing with same skill level guys!!

I am all about bumping to expert by all means but wouldn't it be fair to myself to have atleast one season of sportsman? I have not even raced for 1 year and only raced like 6-7 HARC races total... How can I be expected to race with experts?

I can promise you that I am not racing sportsman for the money! I could give a flying flip about it. For all I care give any money won by me to the last place finisher to support their hobby needs! I am racing with a huge group of friends that are pushing each other to become better and we have all made big strides in the right direction.


----------



## Tha skinny (Dec 15, 2010)

Big Phil said:


> Yea this thread went way south..For the record it has nothing to do with sandbagging it was an idea to give everyone a better chance on race day facts are facts some guys could practice everyday and never beat some of our fast guys that's the bottom line. I do agree that you should have fun and all that but if you don't race to win *** are you racing for? lol
> 
> Its not about racing guys slower than you its about racing guys that are the same speed keeps the racing tight and competitive.


WORD....:an4:.. Lol


----------



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

After reading thrugh this thread fully i have some things i'd like to say to a few guys but I'm not gonna poke shots at someone with a keyboard so I'll keep it to myself. I do agree i am on that line of to fast for sportsman but not fast enough to to win expert at a big race ((BUT)) i wasn't thinking about myself here i was thinking about everyone in general! It sux to see guys discouraged because they didn't finish well even though they ran a great race and if there was a middle ground they would have finished much better. But like i said before JUST AN IDEA! like always any talk of change goes over like a fart in church (insert four letter word here)


----------



## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

Let's all give everyone participation points and a ribbon for job well done. The guys that are close in skill level will end up racing close no matter what.


----------



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

nik77356 said:


> Let's all give everyone participation points and a ribbon for job well done. The guys that are close in skill level will end up racing close no matter what.


You missed my point all together. It has nothing to do with points or money.But I'm done i said what i wanted to say.


----------



## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

I don't believe I did miss the point. You want racing to be closer; i.e. More competitive. The guys that are all of similar skill level will race each other just as closely in a class with more people in it or a class all their own. As Jason said, it really all comes down to egos and semantics. Whether people are willing to say, "I got 5th, but 5th through 10th were really close!" Or the people that just want to say, "I won!"


----------



## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Phil, as far as the HARC races are concerned, I think you have the right idea for the future. When we average 50+ buggies between nitro sportsman and expert, then it's probably the right thing to do. I SINCERELY want everyone to have FUN, so if another class is what it takes, then so be it. I think we may be to this point somewhere around the middle to later part of next season.....at least I hope! 

I don't know why ideas of change come across with such harsh sentiment.........I'm guilty of it too and I guess it's human nature?

Jason B......you're right to stay in sportsman for now......don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Gain more experience the rest of the year and you'll be at the perfect spot to start expert next year. As I said, I see this every year.......there are several people that get to that 90%-fast point quicker than others. Some people take 3 months, and some people take 3 years. Now, it's the other 91-100% that take WAY longer! Usually like 1% per year.......

Anyways, I'll say this..........if this thread doesn't take a clean and positive turn in the next 24 hours or so, I'll just kill it.


----------



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

That sounds great CV. I just see this snowballing in the next year or so we are getting more and more racers and with a new track coming up that number is going to grow even faster I dont think we need this at the small club races but it would be nice at the big ones and for most the harc races are the big ones.
In just about every other hobby or form of racing guys are broke up a little better..you wouldnt line up a 10sec car heads up against a 7sec car in a drag race it isnt really fair. Kinda like shooting fish in a barrel..lol 
I wasnt trying to upset anyone with this thread and im sorry if it came out that way..i just see a big gap in skill in both of our 1/8 nitro classes and was wondering if anyone else felt the same way happy easter everyone.


----------



## RevoUsa (Jan 20, 2011)

Getting started in racing at first is intimidating, especially running against guys that just blow by you! Learning these guys lines, tunning tips, set up etc... has been key to keeping my buggy running consistant. But I just would like to know how is it setup to keep the NEWBs ( like myself ) more interested and coming back out? Starting off new and all, normally you won't make all the races so the points are not there! We are out there trying to learn from the experts ( pros ) instead of getting in their way! 
Don't see myself as a beginner but more intermediate maybe even sportsman,, 

* It seems that all the races should be set up like the mains,,, in the qualifying,,,
your time put you in the A,B,C etc.. right ? Seems your times would put in the classes you belong in ?
* Your peers would notice if your running slower or not ? and they should call like they see it ?


----------



## katjim00 (Jan 8, 2009)

You could add the third class but have the pro and experts race against each other still. Just distinguish the divisions on paper.


----------



## team420! (Apr 30, 2010)

I almost thought I was on a Girlscout forum with all the cryin going on! It doesn't matter what sport you're talking about, you only get better by playin with the best. I think there should be a novice class that encompasses buggy/truggy for those that are truly learning. All others should be labled 1/8 Buggy or Truggy, *Period! *Part of the fun is competing against the masses no matter what skill level. If you think you can't win you never will!


----------



## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

CV is the thread police.......JUST PLAYIN CV....;-)


----------



## Merdith (Sep 20, 2009)

*Hahaha*



team420! said:


> I almost thought I was on a Girlscout forum with all the cryin going on! It doesn't matter what sport you're talking about, you only get better by playin with the best. I think there should be a novice class that encompasses buggy/truggy for those that are truly learning. All others should be labled 1/8 Buggy or Truggy, *Period! *Part of the fun is competing against the masses no matter what skill level. If you think you can't win you never will!


Ur my hero....


----------



## Labrat99 (May 6, 2009)

I think it's an interesting idea Phil. If it leads to bigger turnouts I'm all for it. Why not try it at the next club race at Mike's? Sportsman, intermediate, and expert. It can't hurt anything. For one thing it would be fun to see who's really kidding themselves on where they belong on the LOFT scale.


----------



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

Labrat99 said:


> I think it's an interesting idea Phil. If it leads to bigger turnouts I'm all for it. Why not try it at the next club race at Mike's? Sportsman, intermediate, and expert. It can't hurt anything. For one thing it would be fun to see who's really kidding themselves on where they belong on the LOFT scale.


Thanks i think it would only work with a big turnout though less than ten in a class wouldn't be much fun but when we have 35+1/8th it would be awesome close the gap so to speak. I also believe it would make everyone faster contrary to what some say. How sweet would it be to have an Amain where the guys are sec apart instead of laps.


----------



## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

Big Phil said:


> How sweet would it be to have an Amain where the guys are sec apart instead of laps.


Come over to Expert E-Buggy!!!!


----------



## Guffinator (Aug 27, 2005)

I'm late to the party here.

This is nothing new. We toyed with this idea at K&M 10 years ago. There simply isn't enough racers to warrant this, and it does just what Christian said...you end up with 3 heats of diluted racers, with a small handful of the 'top level' guys...which quickly gets boring for EVERYBODY, the pros included.

Jason is correct, as this is an ego thing aimed at giving the 'middle of the roaders' (80% of us) a chance at winning. 

Getting your *** kicked some times is part of this game. Hell I used to be a lot better then I am now, simply because now I only care about racing with friends like Nick said, if I don't win...so be it. Once upon a time I worked hard, and took this game too seriously (IMO) and I was faster. That's what it takes to be to be seriously competitive (like Christian said)...hard work, mixed with some natural talent.

There is varying levels of competence when it comes to ANYTHING , this hobby included. We all know guys that have been overly-enthusiastic about racing these cars, has all the best stuff, throws tons of money at them, races and practices non-stop...yet they continue to suck. They just seem to lack the natural aptitude. The trick isn't to dumb down the racing in order to make them feel better (like pee wee sports where they don't keep score so nobody gets their feelings hurt) but for everybody to understand how it works. 

I rate myself a 6 on a 1-10 scale when it comes to racing these toys, which is a hair above average...but I still manage a win here and there. Every dog has their day, and I realize that I'm not going to take the show every time I race, and I'm good with that.


----------



## Ginther (Mar 19, 2011)

I'll throw my two-cents in....

When I started racing way back in the 90's, I started in "novice" class. I raced that class til I won a few straight weekends. Once I saw, and more importantly, once the race director saw, that I was no longer a novice, THEY put me in the regular class. I don't recall the breakdown after that other than stock and mod electric classes. Point is that the race director made that call, not me. So I guess if it becomes obvious that someone needs to be in a different class, the race director can/should make that call.

I do have to say that being bumped up to the faster class made me a better driver. I think I got better by trying to keep up with the fast guys and focusing on driving, rather than dodging slower cars and/or being taken out by novice drivers.

Fast forward to today&#8230;. I just got back into the hobby after 5-6years off. I raced for the first time at the last HARC race at Vertigo. Even though I have many years of past racing experience, I chose to race sportsman e-buggy. It was obviously a smart choice cuz I sucked! I made the A-main, but didn't do as well as I had hoped. I can blame it on my long absence, no practice time, slick track, or whatever. I want better results, so I'm gonna try harder.

I plan to race sportsman a few more times til I get my skills honed back into shape. Then I plan to move to the expert class as soon as I feel I won't get in their way because I truly believe that racing with faster guys will only help to make me faster.

And like others have said, breaking things up into too many sub classes probably won't work on a local level. Racing against 3 or 4 other cars isn't any fun, and people will lose interest. Maybe at a big race where you have over 100 entries, you could single out the true pro level drivers, but other than that&#8230; I doubt it would be productive.

But what do I know, I'm just a newb again. LoL!


----------



## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

All good input guys&#8230;&#8230;I like it when this forum makes people really think!


----------



## darrenwilliams (Apr 21, 2008)

Here's my 2 cents.
I am a B-Main to barely made the A-Main expert. It is what it is and I'm ok with that. I am not quite serious enough to put in the time and effort to move up to that next level but I still have a great time racing. I'm not the only one in my class that is at this level. Know the people you are racing against who are a similar level and compete against them. Let this top 3 drivers go by you (again and again) and have a battle with a buddy. Some of the funnest races I have been in and announced have been back and forth battles amongst friends for 5th place bragging rights. 
Have fun and always remember,"we are playing with toy cars in a sandbox.


----------



## Ginther (Mar 19, 2011)

darrenwilliams said:


> Have *fun* and always remember,"we are playing with toy cars in a sandbox.


Preach it brother!


----------



## Labrat99 (May 6, 2009)

He's gonna be having a lot less fun after I STOMP A MUDHOLE in him at Mike's this weekend!:dance:


----------



## LowBoost (Apr 4, 2009)

darrenwilliams said:


> Have fun and always remember,"we are playing with toy cars in a sandbox.


+1


----------



## darrenwilliams (Apr 21, 2008)

Labrat99 said:


> He's gonna be having a lot less fun after I STOMP A MUDHOLE in him at Mike's this weekend!:dance:


Definitely one of the ones I will be battling with. Let's do it


----------



## team420! (Apr 30, 2010)

Is there any reason we can't reset the qual boards after the first two heats in order to get the last 2 qualifiers set with guys running similar run times? You could still pay 1st, 2nd, & 3rd in A, 1st & 2nd, in B, and 1st in C. That way there won't be any sandbaggers and it still gives ALL racers a chance to make the almighty A-Main with the so called experts. 

That's how we used to roll back in the day...


----------



## flyboi33 (Mar 26, 2010)

:doowapsta


darrenwilliams said:


> Here's my 2 cents.
> I am a B-Main to barely made the A-Main expert. It is what it is and I'm ok with that. I am not quite serious enough to put in the time and effort to move up to that next level but I still have a great time racing. I'm not the only one in my class that is at this level. Know the people you are racing against who are a similar level and compete against them. Let this top 3 drivers go by you (again and again) and have a battle with a buddy. Some of the funnest races I have been in and announced have been back and forth battles amongst friends for 5th place bragging rights.
> Have fun and always remember,"we are playing with toy cars in a sandbox.


 Well put Darren!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:doowapsta


----------



## Tobey (Jan 12, 2010)

team420! said:


> Is there any reason we can't reset the qual boards after the first two heats in order to get the last 2 qualifiers set with guys running similar run times? You could still pay 1st, 2nd, & 3rd in A, 1st & 2nd, in B, and 1st in C. That way there won't be any sandbaggers and it still gives ALL racers a chance to make the almighty A-Main with the so called experts.
> 
> That's how we used to roll back in the day...


I don't have a dog in this fight, but this seems the easiest workable solution to me. Do your best to seed the heats, and let the mains fall where they fall. Winning a C-Main is still winning a race, whether you call it a C-Main or a Rookie Class.


----------



## tebone626 (Apr 25, 2010)

im not sure how well a new nitro buggy class will work, but when we started talking about making a sportsman ebuggy class, there were alot of people that said it wouldnt work. if you look at the past 3 harc races, there have been a good showing in this class. im not sure if its because more newbies are staying in it, cause they are doing alot better than they would if they were in expert. just saying, that if we make another class for the nitro guys, it may just work out. why not give it a shot, next year, when we have our harc meeting, and set it up like we did the e buggy sportsman. run a few races, and if there are not enough to fill the three classes, then cut it out of the program.


----------



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

tebone626 said:


> im not sure how well a new nitro buggy class will work, but when we started talking about making a sportsman ebuggy class, there were alot of people that said it wouldnt work. if you look at the past 3 harc races, there have been a good showing in this class. im not sure if its because more newbies are staying in it, cause they are doing alot better than they would if they were in expert. just saying, that if we make another class for the nitro guys, it may just work out. why not give it a shot, next year, when we have our harc meeting, and set it up like we did the e buggy sportsman. run a few races, and if there are not enough to fill the three classes, then cut it out of the program.


I couldnt have said it better myself. I cant understand why everyone wouldnt wanna be in a class where everyone is close to the same skill level as they are..where you dont know who is going to win each race. It sure Sounds like it would be more fun to me.expert would be much better if you had to earn it.


----------



## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Well we could let this evolve into having a Beginner, Novice, Sportsman, Intermediate, Open, Expert, Pro and heck a Seniors (50+) class so that we can massage our feelings and egos with labels/justifications for our lap times OR we just run them based on their car type and if you make A main everyone quietly knows your a PRO, B main we know your Expert, C class you are Sportsman and D or lower and you a obviously a beginner. 

And if only 18 people show thats half pro and half expert OR if its a small race and only 11 people show in a class WOW you are all PRO and everyone "feels" good about themselves!! YAYYY


----------



## Labrat99 (May 6, 2009)

tebone626 said:


> im not sure how well a new nitro buggy class will work, but when we started talking about making a sportsman ebuggy class, there were alot of people that said it wouldnt work. if you look at the past 3 harc races, there have been a good showing in this class. im not sure if its because more newbies are staying in it, cause they are doing alot better than they would if they were in expert. just saying, that if we make another class for the nitro guys, it may just work out. why not give it a shot, next year, when we have our harc meeting, and set it up like we did the e buggy sportsman. run a few races, and if there are not enough to fill the three classes, then cut it out of the program.


BINGO!!! We have a winner.


----------



## Labrat99 (May 6, 2009)

jasonwipf said:


> Well we could let this evolve into having a Beginner, Novice, Sportsman, Intermediate, Open, Expert, Pro and heck a Seniors (50+) class so that we can massage our feelings and egos with labels/justifications for our lap times OR we just run them based on their car type and if you make A main everyone quietly knows your a PRO, B main we know your Expert, C class you are Sportsman and D or lower and you a obviously a beginner.
> 
> And if only 18 people show thats half pro and half expert OR if its a small race and only 11 people show in a class WOW you are all PRO and everyone "feels" good about themselves!! YAYYY


I don't get the attitude Jason. As I recall, you were the one who suggested we add a Sportsman e-buggy class. What's different now?


----------



## Big Phil (Apr 27, 2007)

jasonwipf said:


> Well we could let this evolve into having a Beginner, Novice, Sportsman, Intermediate, Open, Expert, Pro and heck a Seniors (50+) class so that we can massage our feelings and egos with labels/justifications for our lap times OR we just run them based on their car type and if you make A main everyone quietly knows your a PRO, B main we know your Expert, C class you are Sportsman and D or lower and you a obviously a beginner.
> 
> And if only 18 people show thats half pro and half expert OR if its a small race and only 11 people show in a class WOW you are all PRO and everyone "feels" good about themselves!! YAYYY


Are you on drugs? I mean really do you feel ok?


----------



## Jasoncb (Jun 25, 2010)

...


----------



## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)




----------



## tebone626 (Apr 25, 2010)

Jason W im not trying to build ego's, im just trying to get new people to stick around. it really sucked for me when i first started, i had to race expert guys in ebuggy, and truggy. i wish there would have been a sportsman class. yes, i stuck with it event though i was getting murdered out there. but most new people wont stick around. 

whats wrong with trying it for a few of the harc races next year, just like we are doing for the e buggy sportsman class. really, what is it gonna hurt. just do it at the big races like harc. not trying to build up any egos. 

when we race some of the smaller club races, or the swagger series, it sucks when the fast guys come up on the slower ones, and there is contact, i know, i hear alot of cussing and yelling at the slower guys. alot of times, they dont know they are being lapped, so they race, just part of having super fast guys with the slower ones. at the big races, it would help that part of it. it really helped in the ebuggy class. there is alot of clean racing in the expert class now.


----------



## Jasoncb (Jun 25, 2010)




----------



## team420! (Apr 30, 2010)

tebone626 said:


> Jason W im not trying to build ego's, im just trying to get new people to stick around. it really sucked for me when i first started, i had to race expert guys in ebuggy, and truggy. i wish there would have been a sportsman class. yes, i stuck with it event though i was getting murdered out there. but most new people wont stick around.
> 
> whats wrong with trying it for a few of the harc races next year, just like we are doing for the e buggy sportsman class. really, what is it gonna hurt. just do it at the big races like harc. not trying to build up any egos.
> 
> when we race some of the smaller club races, or the swagger series, it sucks when the fast guys come up on the slower ones, and there is contact, i know, i hear alot of cussing and yelling at the slower guys. alot of times, they dont know they are being lapped, so they race, just part of having super fast guys with the slower ones. at the big races, it would help that part of it. it really helped in the ebuggy class. there is alot of clean racing in the expert class now.


Part of being that so called "expert" is also knowing how to drive defensively and avoiding contact when passing slower play. I'll continue coming out and racing because I love the hobby, but I'd rather run in whichever class has the masses. I'm just not a fan of diluting the classes even further.


----------



## Merdith (Sep 20, 2009)

*Expert*

I remember building my first buggy, It was a bit scary. I wondered if I was doing anything right. I pulled the trigger the first time and my car never moved. I called the hoby shop and they thought for a minute and said, "Did you charge the battery"? I was like ohhhh no I thought they came charged. So I waited like 10 hours for the wall charger to fill up my hard case 7.2v battery. It was a lloooong wait. I had so much fun driving my frog in the empty lots around my house and the axle stripped out, this and that went wrong, but I was hooked. My next car the Mugen Bulldog never ran once. It came with ball diffs and I never could get them to stop slipping. In the closet it went. I was dissapointed, then my next car worked really good. It was a Kyosho Turbo optima. It came with a mod motor and chain drive. It was awesome. I went to M&M's just to drive it at a track. Eventually my friend Greg Powell took me under his wing and hooked me up with a bad *** RC 10. It was awesome. I never had all the right tires or the fastest engine, but it was fun to race.

My point is that who cares what class you are in. Learning about the car and practicing will get you to the level you need to win races, not being in a certain class. I got stepped on for a good number of races when I first got into the hobby, but eventually I was holding my own. When everyone finally wised up and started racing 1/8th scale I was ready from driving my rc 10 at the races, and practicing with my 1/8th scale in fields. I never raced it and had a three nitro buggies before my first race with them and won every race for a few months with a futaba stock servo in my steering. I could not afford nice stuff and I still ripped on the track. I had to let off to turn the car.

Don't worry about what class ur in and if you get discouraged, so what, go home and rebuild you broken *** car and show up for some more next race day. Do you think any fast driver just showed up and was instantly fast. This hobby demands patience and perseverance, you won't get faster from racing in the slow class, you will win by learning your engine, and being nice to your car, and practicing. Slamming full throttle and driving like a maniac won't help you learn squat, smooth lines, tuning ur engine, patience wins races......If you want to win you have to earn it...

So maybe your not gifted like the few drivers who learned really fast, I wasn't, so what, if you want it then work for it. It will come in time, but buying new equipment every other race won't win a race, or racing in a slower class, but treating ur buggy, and other drivers with respect will lead to better results, at least you will finish races. Work on finishing races first, then worry about classes......


----------



## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Labrat99 said:


> I don't get the attitude Jason. As I recall, you were the one who suggested we add a Sportsman e-buggy class. What's different now?


Good point, I was for that class because of our children. But with this "pro" class debate, they are adults crying about being beat. Thats whats different.

Also, I just don't see the numbers for 3 classes and keeping points balanced right in a HARC points series. as it is people progress with just 2 (sportsman and expert) and we dog them about being Sand baggers. 3 levels and bouncing up and down from them and the "he shouldn't be in this class" whining will be even worse; not to mention the increase in run time possibility and making the evening go even later when getting out earlier has been one of our main goals.

But hey try it a few races and see how it goes. We might get out earlier and finally there will be NO complaining about who should be in what class and feelings hurt about being beat by guys who are better than you - I'm willing to admit I could be totally WRONG about my concerns?


----------



## jasonwipf (Feb 23, 2009)

Here is the real reason (logically speaking) I don't think it will work.

This "pro" class WILL (would) work if we just ran 1/8th and the 1/8th gas or Electric was say 30 entries each min and better if it was 50+ each. But with 1/8th Gas, 1/8th Elect, Truggy sportsman, truggy expert and CORR we will never constantly have that much and fit it into 1 day. Beyond about 100 total entries people get tired of being there all day or getting out at 3am so its a self limiting proposition for frequent, 1 DAY HARC racing. So, once we start getting the higher numbers in a class that makes this idea viable the day gets so long, people retract back from coming to the races and it becomes nonviable again. Large 1/8th races like a special one shot race, 2 day race or 50/50 mikes race and this could be a really awesome idea, I just don't see it time vs. numbers working for frequent short 1 day HARC races

Believe me I don't like getting my arse handed to me by jake now that he is in electric but thats racing and crying for a PRo class there would just be giving up on the challenge to get better and try beating him and becoming a better racer.


----------



## tebone626 (Apr 25, 2010)

i was just putting in my .02 it really doesnt affect me one way or another. i was just trying to give the nitro guys the same support that they gave the electric guys on getting a new class. as for having a longer day, i dont see it. we are still running the same number of people, we just have a D main, a C main, a B main, and an A main. so whether the classes are split or not, we are still running the same number of racers. if you split one class 50/50, you still have four mains. it may add 20 mins or so, cause now you have two A mains. either way this turns out, im sure we will all still be racing.


----------



## Guffinator (Aug 27, 2005)

tebone626 said:


> Jason W im not trying to build ego's, im just trying to get new people to stick around. it really sucked for me when i first started, i had to race expert guys in ebuggy, and truggy. i wish there would have been a sportsman class. yes, i stuck with it event though i was getting murdered out there. but most new people wont stick around.


ANY new person will get murdered out there. This is how it works, you suck when are new (we all did) and you get better as you become more experienced. That won't go away.

The people that will stick around are the people that 'get it'. This is an entire different discussion - some people are into RC for life but some only dabble in it for a brief period.


----------



## Tha skinny (Dec 15, 2010)

Really guys.. None of this has to do with egos.... How big your Wang or any of this junk you guys are posting.... 

Who cares about what class your running...???? I sure as hell do! I do this for competition! I have fun doing it also but when it comes down to it! I could care 2 craps about the fun! You guys kill me with all of the friendship holding hands ****.....Lol


----------



## tebone626 (Apr 25, 2010)

Guffinator said:


> ANY new person will get murdered out there. This is how it works, you suck when are new (we all did) and you get better as you become more experienced. That won't go away.
> 
> The people that will stick around are the people that 'get it'. This is an entire different discussion - some people are into RC for life but some only dabble in it for a brief period.


your right.


----------



## Ginther (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm concerned that some people might get their feelings hurt, and maybe even suffer from some self esteem damage. We should turn off the lap counter and timers, and just drive for five minutes, then stop. Afterwards everyone should get a participation ribbon. 

Everyone should be equal. We should probably take the evil "fast guys" lap times and re-distribute them to those participants who didn't do as well. Those fast guys just "got lucky" and had an unfair advantage anyway. 

Oh yea, we should stop printing the roster in black ink too. It's a harsh and depressing color. We should start using purple instead. 

Can't we all just get along? 

LMAO!! :rotfl:


----------



## Guffinator (Aug 27, 2005)

Ginther said:


> I'm concerned that some people might get their feelings hurt, and maybe even suffer from some self esteem damage. We should turn off the lap counter and timers, and just drive for five minutes, then stop. Afterwards everyone should get a participation ribbon.
> 
> Everyone should be equal. We should probably take the evil "fast guys" lap times and re-distribute them to those participants who didn't do as well. Those fast guys just "got lucky" and had an unfair advantage anyway.
> 
> ...


Exactly

Keep in mind guys, this is what qualifying is for. At a large race it's more evident, but the guys in the D main are close on lap times even though they are far slower then the guys in the A, who also have similar lap times. THIS IS WHAT SEPARATES THE FIELD based on performance. It works the same on a local level but the number of participants is much lower, so the mains are not so closely grouped in lap times. In the end the ONLY reason for doing this is to make the slower guys feel better about them selves by not getting lapped repeatedly by the faster ones.


----------



## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

Guffinator said:


> Keep in mind guys, this is what qualifying is for. At a large race it's more evident, but the guys in the D main are close on lap times even though they are far slower then the guys in the A, who also have similar lap times. THIS IS WHAT SEPARATES THE FIELD based on performance. It works the same on a local level but the number of participants is much lower, so the mains are not so closely grouped in lap times. In the end the ONLY reason for doing this is to make the slower guys feel better about them selves by not getting lapped repeatedly by the faster ones.


Exactly what I've been trying to say the whole time (although I could have said it nicer).


----------



## Tha skinny (Dec 15, 2010)

True.. Think of the 3 groups if we had them in buggy as consistency levels. Like what you said about people running te same laps times but fewer of them. Remember there is also a group that has only been running for a few weeks or so and they are way slower all the way around. I can think if atleast 13 drivers that are close to where I am running. My laps are in-between 24.0 to 25 consistently. This is by no means in my opinion fast enough to run with the likes of the pro drivers. 
When I first started racing I was running rubber sedan and it was absolutely horrible. There was a class for people trying to get started and that's what I ran more than willingly. No matter what I would just of been in the way of the next group every lap I ran. It's frustrating for the other drivers in the class and can even cause problems! I've see it over and over again! After a few weeks or so. Was able to run in the sportsman class( coming from beginner) and started picking it up better and asking the other drivers to pick there brain. After 1 year I was running in pro stock and enjoying it!
It just takes time for people to get to the top level of anything they do normally.

A beginners class will be great for the racing around here and will not scare of the newbies! There are people talking constantly about how they want to be in just not be in the way!


----------



## darrenwilliams (Apr 21, 2008)

We offer a beginners class at all HARC races. We have had a beginners class a few of the Swagger Races. Just depends on who shows up. As for the original topic which was splitting Expert into Expert and Pro, there just aren't enough racers. We are 1/3 of a year into HARC and we only have 27 people total that have raced in Nitro Expert total and an average of 15.25 per race. Running more a-Mains takes longer than running B-Mains. Expert A is 20 minutes and Expert B is 15 minutes. I assume Pro would be the same or longer. This adds to the day.

IMO, there are usually 2-3 drivers at each race that dominate and we can't start a new class just for them.

Here are the 27 drivers in Expert Nitro. Who would YOU move to Pro? Now go take a look at how infrequent thier attendance is. It doen't work.
Jake Dellinger
Nathan vivares
Jerry Willet
Jason Branham
Justin Keller
Robbie Darby
Tanner Haggler
Mark Marrow
Brian Rickard
Brain Henn
Meredith Roach
Sutton Benpon
Monkey
Chuck Janke
Brain Stanford
Rob Tyus
Roger Ayers
Jim Sheffield
Thomas Wells
Rubine Samuel
Dan Henn
Grayson Witt
Jeremy Cupps
Tol Thomas
Nick Sartor
Troy Tyro
Cassidy Sims


----------



## Labrat99 (May 6, 2009)

Ginther said:


> I'm concerned that some people might get their feelings hurt, and maybe even suffer from some self esteem damage. We should turn off the lap counter and timers, and just drive for five minutes, then stop. Afterwards everyone should get a participation ribbon.
> 
> Everyone should be equal. We should probably take the evil "fast guys" lap times and re-distribute them to those participants who didn't do as well. Those fast guys just "got lucky" and had an unfair advantage anyway.
> 
> ...


That's not productive. All you are doing is trying to agitate people. How does that help move the discussion along?

We had a C Main in Sportsman E-Buggy at the last HARC race. That tells me right there that adding that class was the right thing to do. There is NOTHING in the world wrong with splitting classes by skill level. Frankly, I don't get why it would bother ANYONE to do so. If you are convinced you'll only get better racing against the fastest guys then sign up for the expert/pro class! There. Problem solved.

What I'm interested in seeing is a healthy racing scene in the Houston area. I think having three skill levels of racers might bring more people out to race. If it turns out it doesn't, so what? Drop the idea and move on.

By the way, we're all entitled to our opinions. I just don't get why some of us feel the need to trash somebody else's.


----------



## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

We can't give Smiley his own class? LOL


----------



## Ginther (Mar 19, 2011)

Labrat99 said:


> That's not productive. All you are doing is trying to agitate people. How does that help move the discussion along?


It was a joke dude. Meant to lighten the mood. Obviously my humorous sarcastic tone didn't carry over the interwebs very well.

I assumed the "LMAO" would have been a clue. Oh well. hwell:


----------



## nik77356 (Jun 8, 2007)

Come on guys, let's keep it civil. I'm mainly talking to you Ginther. This is a local, family forum and we'd like to keep it constructive.


----------



## skillett (Mar 7, 2010)

Well lets see if Skillett can be positive about 
this topic.I guess the sandbagging thing was my fault 
and I appoligize.....This thread had nothing to do with it.
Should there be a middle class between sportsman and
pro......I would benefit from this also but its just not logical.
For what ever reason you have ,people know why..



Now driving is a big part of speed but not the only
thing.This is racing and if somebody finds a better setup
before you than its time to start thinking a little harder.
It does not matter what you do ,to be the best you have to race the best



Isn't that why we race?


----------



## Ginther (Mar 19, 2011)

Here's an idea.....

It'll be kinda like taking a poll to see what classes the _actual participants_, ya know, the people who _*actually show up and pay money to race*_.... it'll be like taking a poll to see what classes they'd like to see available and/or be racing in....

When they sign up for their race, ask them which of the following skill level / class they'd like to race in:

Novice/Beginner
Intermediate/Sportsman
Advanced/Expert
Super Advanced/Sponsored Pro Level

Those are just examples of possible breakdown.

Be sure and let them know extra classes will only be created to accommodate the breakdown *IF* there are enough entries to create sufficient sizes of each class, otherwise classes will be combined.

Once everyone has signed up, split up the entries into suitable size classes and see what happens.


----------



## skillett (Mar 7, 2010)

One more thing and I'm done
This is my Opinion only.
Sportsman is still figuring out what setup does
and is learning how to tune ,depth perception,brake and throttle control ect.




Expert is trying to find the right combination to beat everybody else.
Some people are just better at it than others but not any less
of a racer.....


----------



## Ginther (Mar 19, 2011)

nik77356 said:


> Come on guys, let's keep it civil. I'm mainly talking to you Ginther. This is a local, family forum and we'd like to keep it constructive.


I didn't think anything I said was un-civil at all. It was a JOKE. hwell:


----------



## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

skillett said:


> One more thing and I'm done
> This is my Opinion only.
> Sportsman is still figuring out what setup does
> and is learning how to tune ,depth perception,brake and throttle control ect.
> ...


Agreed!!


----------



## Courtney Vaughan (Apr 11, 2007)

I think we've gotten all we're gonna get out of this thread&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;it's turning into finger-pointing now.

I appreciate all the info everyone has given and from a HARC perspective, we'll keep this on the docket for next year to discuss at the meeting for 2012. 

Darren's list that he made kind of spells everything out&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;as of now, there are not enough people to justify it. There may be enough next year and we may give it a try. However, what I WON'T do is be the "police" and tell people what class they're going to run in. So, let's let this discussion go for now, and please don't carry it over into other threads. I PROMISE you guys, we WILL get back to it, as it has valid points on both sides.


----------

