# Reds & GZ????



## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

Reds
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Hit Surfside Sat early morning loaded with 3-6in mullet. A nice NNW breeze laid the surf down real nice and it was easy fishin. Boxed 5 slot reds from 20-23in.

GZ????
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Now for the most interesting part of the day. At 7:30am, My 40lb spinning rig with mullet soaking in the 2nd gut goes off. Had the drag set on med strike force for reds. I grab the rod and realize I'm hooked into something BIG! Then the reel starts screaming as I see all my mono go out. I tighten the drag a bit to no avail. It's still flying down current. Next my braid backing appears and it's still going out. I tighten the drag to full and it's still going. 200yds, 250yds, 300yds. All I could do was run down the beach hoping to slow it down but it's not happening. I'm down to 50yds or so on my reel and I know the inevitable is about to occur. I paused and watched as the last 50yds went off my reel and pop - spooled for the 1st time. What a helpless feeling.. I figure it was a big shark, jack or godzilla.
:help:


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

Watching helplessly as the line melts off your reel is one of the most exciting, and at the same time, most frustrating experiences you can have.

With that much line on the reel, I'm betting it was either a big shark, or a big ray. I've never seen a jack take that much line in one run, not even with 12# mono.

Just for future reference, though, many times if you will tighten down, either with the drag, or by using your hand, before you get completely spooled, the line will break close to the leader. The end result is still a missed fish, but at least you get your line back.


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## DANO (May 23, 2005)

bigfost said:


> Watching helplessly as the line melts off your reel is one of the most exciting, and at the same time, most frustrating experiences you can have.
> 
> With that much line on the reel, I'm betting it was either a big shark, or a big ray. I've never seen a jack take that much line in one run, not even with 12# mono.
> 
> *Just for future reference, though, many times if you will tighten down, either with the drag, or by using your hand, before you get completely spooled, the line will break close to the leader. The end result is still a missed fish, but at least you get your line back*.


That right there is a true statement.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

Ah, the most exciting annoying thing in the world lol. Nice bunch of slot reds, sure is nice when they're running through. 

I always start my spool off with 6' of higher lb test mono than what I'll be using for the main topper. For example, six feet of 80# mono, 300 or 500 yards of 80# braid, and fill the spool with 50# mono. That way if/when it does break all I'm replacing is the mono usually.


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

PING!!!

its a weird feeling to get spooled like that... it ****** me off so bad I want to break something but at the same time it brings a huge rush of adrenaline and the knowledge that you are obviously doing something right even though you were just severely outgunned


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

*Return to sender*

If anyone drags in a big fish with an extra hook, weight and 300yds of line hanging out, I would like it returned, pls. Thank you!


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

spin-the-bottle w/El Yucoteo...
man up....


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## jagarcia10 (Mar 10, 2011)

That's crazy, maybe a huge ray? At least you got on some reds!


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

justletmein said:


> Ah, the most exciting annoying thing in the world lol. Nice bunch of slot reds, sure is nice when they're running through.
> 
> I always start my spool off with 6' of higher lb test mono than what I'll be using for the main topper. For example, six feet of 80# mono, 300 or 500 yards of 80# braid, and fill the spool with 50# mono. That way if/when it does break all I'm replacing is the mono usually.


Sounds like a good plan when I re-line my reels!


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

surfguy said:


> Sounds like a good plan when I re-line my reels!


Most of my reels are spooled similarly. My surf casting reels have 150 yards of 50# braid, with a 25# mono topshot. That is followed by a 30 to 50 foot 50# mono shock leader, then my leader.

My yakked shark rigs are spooled a bit heavier, but same principal.


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

This may be a situation where thinking outside the box may have helped....Not that you did anything wrong surfguy, but heres some food for thought.

just an example- I use 65 lb braid on 30-40 class equip....yes the line strength exceeds the drag but when a big fish picks up that bait i will use my hands on the spool to help turn that fish

Just another thought....Instead of just a backing why not load that sucka up with braid and a shorter topshot of say 80 lb mono about 50 yards worth.....i know it sounds like overkill but ( knocking on wood ) i have yet to be spooled by ray or shark.

Not trying to change your mind.....just saying theres more than one way to skin a cat.....just a look into my unorthadoxed way of fishing but then again i have never been good at following " rules " or " guidlines "

Big fish dont know/care if your using medium size tackle or not and they sure dont care if your line versus drag ratings are equal,just a diff way of maybe stopping this from happening. Glad ya got out and experienced being spooled. Tightlines!


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

JOHNNYREB said:


> This may be a situation where thinking outside the box may have helped....Not that you did anything wrong surfguy, but heres some food for thought.
> 
> just an example- I use 65 lb braid on 30-40 class equip....yes the line strength exceeds the drag but when a big fish picks up that bait i will use my hands on the spool to help turn that fish
> 
> ...


Great tips guys. Thks!


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

JOHNNYREB said:


> just an example- I use 65 lb braid on 30-40 class equip....yes the line strength exceeds the drag but when a big fish picks up that bait i will use my hands on the spool to help turn that fish
> 
> Just another thought....Instead of just a backing why not load that sucka up with braid and a shorter topshot of say 80 lb mono about 50 yards worth.....i know it sounds like overkill but ( knocking on wood ) i have yet to be spooled by ray or shark.


I would make one recommendation, if you are going to size your line well beyond what your reel is designed for. Instead of securing the end of your line to your spool, use a slip knot, or other means by which the line can be sacrificed in a worst case scenario, and even that might not save the reel.

The advent of very thin braided lines led to many people, early on, using very heavy lines on reels that weren't designed for them. So, what was the result when that monster fish was encountered? Many reels were destroyed. When you over tax a reel with a too heavy line, something is going to give. If the line isn't the weakest link, then the reel becomes that link. That is exactly what led to the development of most of the state of the art modern reels that are designed for braid. You now have people going after marlin and monster sharks on 4/0 sized reels, but those reels are designed Army tank strong because of the stresses they are going to be subjected to.

Just remember, in any setup there's going to be a weak link. That weak link can either be your line, or your reel. You choose.


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

bigfost said:


> I would make one recommendation, if you are going to size your line well beyond what your reel is designed for. Instead of securing the end of your line to your spool, use a slip knot, or other means by which the line can be sacrificed in a worst case scenario, and even that might not save the reel.
> 
> The advent of very thin braided lines led to many people, early on, using very heavy lines on reels that weren't designed for them. So, what was the result when that monster fish was encountered? Many reels were destroyed. When you over tax a reel with a too heavy line, something is going to give. If the line isn't the weakest link, then the reel becomes that link. That is exactly what led to the development of most of the state of the art modern reels that are designed for braid. You now have people going after marlin and monster sharks on 4/0 sized reels, but those reels are designed Army tank strong because of the stresses they are going to be subjected to.
> 
> Just remember, in any setup there's going to be a weak link. That weak link can either be your line, or your reel. You choose.


BF, Understand and I chose the reel with my original setup. That's why I was hesitant to go higher on my braid backing to begin with. I think there is a good compromise though. What do you guys think about 60# mono, 50# braid, 40#mono and maybe a shock leader for a spinner rated at 25# max drag? For my conventionals, how about 80# mono, 60# braid, 40# mono for 40# max drag?


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

OK....yes under all that braid, i have about 30 yards of 20lb mono. the reason i didnt mention it is i dont like to give advice on pure common sense. 


I got penns, i got avets, couldnt tell ya the drag pressure on any of them....its just a number.....Surf fishing is wayyyyy more simple than some are making it out to be. Not picking on ya surfguy.....but could you imagine if you were a new guy and read some of these posts....i know my head would be spinning! KISS!!!!!!


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

surfguy said:


> BF, Understand and I chose the reel with my original setup. That's why I was hesitant to go higher on my braid backing to begin with. I think there is a good compromise though. What do you guys think about 60# mono, 50# braid, 40#mono and maybe a shock leader for a spinner rated at 25# max drag? For my conventionals, how about 80# mono, 60# braid, 40# mono for 40# max drag?


I don't see any advantage to having a stronger mono from the spool to the braid. By having your mono topshot weaker than your braid, that's what's going to break off, and you'll still have your expensive braid.

You don't say what size your conventional reels are, but again, I'll just tell you how I'm spooled.

My casting reels I've already described. My two 4/0s that I yak out for sharks are spooled with 300 yards of 50# braid followed by a 30# mono topshot. I would rather have more line capacity than a higher breaking strength line. The few times I've broken fish off, the failure was at a knot, not in the line itself.

If you have larger reels than a 4/0, I would certainly use correspondingly heavier line.

I, too, like to keep things as simple as practical, but I like the most bang for my buck. A combination of braid and mono dramatically increases line capacity, but the braid has a few shortcomings. It doesn't wear well on the sandbars. That's why most surf fishermen use a mono topshot. The mono is more abrasion resistant, plus it's easier on the hands. Braid that's stretched tight to a fish is downright dangerous. It can cut like a razor. The worst cut I've had in years was last year on a shark that had me deep into my braid. As I was thumbing the line back on the reel, before I knew what was happening that braid had sliced me almost to the bone.

As far as Johnnyreb's comment about what a new guy would be thinking reading some of these discussions, I think they would be very glad to see how some of the old hands do things. After all, we've already climbed that learning curve, why not pass some of that hard earned knowledge along?


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

JOHNNYREB said:


> OK....yes under all that braid, i have about 30 yards of 20lb mono. the reason i didnt mention it is i dont like to give advice on pure common sense.
> 
> I got penns, i got avets, couldnt tell ya the drag pressure on any of them....its just a number.....Surf fishing is wayyyyy more simple than some are making it out to be. Not picking on ya surfguy.....but could you imagine if you were a new guy and read some of these posts....i know my head would be spinning! KISS!!!!!!


JR, I hear ya man! It all makes sense to me. I just need to decide the simplest way. Now, I have one more question: Do you have any trouble with connecting knots hanging on the eyes when casting or retrieving? It seems to be a problem for me on the big shock leader knot when I'm casting and the mono to braid knot when I'm retrieving with pressure on the line. Sometimes, I use uni-uni and sometimes an albright.


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

bigfost said:


> I don't see any advantage to having a stronger mono from the spool to the braid. By having your mono topshot weaker than your braid, that's what's going to break off, and you'll still have your expensive braid.
> 
> You don't say what size your conventional reels are, but again, I'll just tell you how I'm spooled.
> 
> ...


BF, I don't disagree with you about not having the higher strength mono backing but maybe it would have stopped my spool out long enough to turn him and tire him out without damaging the reel. If not, I would think the weak mono topshot would still be the weak link and break off first.


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

Bigfost....i dont think sharing info with people is a bad thing, just saying that putting all kinds of thought into choosing line versus the drag pressure and so on....is just over thinking things! I beleive topshots are very necessary but than again to me a 4/0 isnt a yaking rig.....so i only put as much mono on the reel as i can cast

Like you i catch some nice fish, and we both do it with two diff techniques.... and comparing 50 to 65 lb braid....apples to oranges....your not gaining a great deal of line frome one to another 

Oh and rarely do i ever get cut off....but it does happen....nature of the beast!


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

JOHNNYREB said:


> Bigfost....i dont think sharing info with people is a bad thing, just saying that putting all kinds of thought into choosing line versus the drag pressure and so on....is just over thinking things! I beleive topshots are very necessary but than again to me a 4/0 isnt a yaking rig.....so i only put as much mono on the reel as i can cast
> 
> Like you i catch some nice fish, and we both do it with two diff techniques.... and comparing 50 to 65 lb braid....apples to oranges....your not gaining a great deal of line frome one to another
> 
> Oh and rarely do i ever get cut off....but it does happen....nature of the beast!


JR & BF, you both make some good points and it helps me alot. I just want to make the right decision that makes sense to me when I need to reline all my reels. I only want to do it one time. LOL!


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

surfguy said:


> JR & BF, you both make some good points and it helps me alot. I just want to make the right decision that makes sense to me when I need to reline all my reels. I only want to do it one time. LOL!


LOL.....yeah i know....Personally, i dont want anything to give, from my topshot on down.....thats why i keep my light line on the spool.
If he gets me that far then yeah somethings gotta give. Im gonna bust his ***** the whole way!

I think where me and BF are diff is where hes using 4/0 im using a 6 wide.....so that difference might make me change a few things. Not dogging anybody.


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

JOHNNYREB said:


> LOL.....yeah i know....Personally, i dont want anything to give, from my topshot on down.....thats why i keep my light line on the spool.
> If he gets me that far then yeah somethings gotta give. Im gonna bust his ***** the whole way!
> 
> I think where me and BF are diff is where hes using 4/0 im using a 6 wide.....so that difference might make me change a few things. Not dogging anybody.


Yeah, I figured that out. Just to clarify, I'm only talking about the reels I cast like 4/0 class, not my bigger 6/0 & 9/0 yakked shark rigs.


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## fultonswimmer (Jul 3, 2008)

*Bigfish, little Johnson!*

Wow.....talk about KISS. Here is my latest. All on a powerful 6'6" Ugly Stik with 15lb. P-Line using 25lb. shock leader. Exciting as apple pie on Mother's Day!
Not to be outdone my fishing partner followed mine up with a nice fish using her 8' American Rodsmith with 17lb. P-Line tipped with 30lb. mono shock leader. Overkill needed? Nope!


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

surfguy said:


> Yeah, I figured that out. Just to clarify, I'm only talking about the reels I cast like 4/0 class, not my bigger 6/0 & 9/0 yakked shark rigs.


LOL....JMO....i fish with 65lb braid 80 lb topshot....i go heavy on the topshot because of the shell we have here on pins, in your neck of the woods you might be able to get away with lighter if shell is not a problem.

A good friend of mine caught an 8' 6" bull on this same set up....it never took him more than 100yds....oh and when fishing with heavy braid....gloves go a long way.

Am i confused or did you say you got spooled on a spin reel?


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

JOHNNYREB said:


> LOL....JMO....i fish with 65lb braid 80 lb topshot....i go heavy on the topshot because of the shell we have here on pins, in your neck of the woods you might be able to get away with lighter if shell is not a problem.
> 
> A good friend of mine caught an 8' 6" bull on this same set up....it never took him more than 100yds....oh and when fishing with heavy braid....gloves go a long way.
> 
> Am i confused or did you say you got spooled on a spin reel?


You're not confused, I got spooled on a spin reel but I want to avoid getting spooled again on any of my reels I cast. I did not want to exaggerate but I estimate the fish that spooled me was easily 50-100+lbs but it's just my gut feeling. I really wanted to land that fish to prove it.


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

fultonswimmer said:


> Wow.....talk about KISS. Here is my latest. All on a powerful 6'6" Ugly Stik with 15lb. P-Line using 25lb. shock leader. Exciting as apple pie on Mother's Day!
> Not to be outdone my fishing partner followed mine up with a nice fish using her 8' American Rodsmith with 17lb. P-Line tipped with 30lb. mono shock leader. Overkill needed? Nope!


Ahhhh bait.... J/K .... Nice reds!


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

surfguy said:


> You're not confused, I got spooled on a spin reel but I want to avoid getting spooled again on any of my reels I cast. I did not want to exaggerate but I estimate the fish that spooled me was easily 50-100+lbs but it's just my gut feeling. I really wanted to land that fish to prove it.


good chance it was 5' + shark... the strength of your line had nothing to do with losing the fish. I'm guessing you couldn't slow him down, much less turn him right? Thats a drag and line capacity issue. When that happens the diameter and strength of your line hardly matters because when a big running fish hits the spool, the arbor knot goes in a loud ping... it might play out differently with heavy gear like 80lb mono or 100 lb braid, I don't know, never had the pleasure of experiencing that...

Like others, I'd suggest going smaller diamteter to increase your capacity... never know, you may have slowed and turned that fish with another 30 yards on line??? Depending on the reel, you may think about straight 30 or 50lb braid with a traditional "shockleader". Not as messy to cast with as you might think, just start slow...

The best possible solution is to "gear up" and get a casting outfit that is capable of slowing, stopping and turning a fish up to 7-8'... BUT that still wont stop a 5' shark from picking up a redfish bait! I love it, nothing beats getting smoked by a fish like that


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

jc said:


> good chance it was 5' + shark... the strength of your line had nothing to do with losing the fish. I'm guessing you couldn't slow him down, much less turn him right? Thats a drag and line capacity issue. When that happens the diameter and strength of your line hardly matters because when a big running fish hits the spool, the arbor knot goes in a loud ping... it might play out differently with heavy gear like 80lb mono or 100 lb braid, I don't know, never had the pleasure of experiencing that...
> 
> Like others, I'd suggest going smaller diamteter to increase your capacity... never know, you may have slowed and turned that fish with another 30 yards on line??? Depending on the reel, you may think about straight 30 or 50lb braid with a traditional "shockleader". Not as messy to cast with as you might think, just start slow...
> 
> The best possible solution is to "gear up" and get a casting outfit that is capable of slowing, stopping and turning a fish up to 7-8'... BUT that still wont stop a 5' shark from picking up a redfish bait! I love it, nothing beats getting smoked by a fish like that


JC, you're probably correct that it's a drag and line capacity issue but I don't know what drag and how much more line capacity it would have taken to turn it. Two weekends ago, I got nailed on my 20lb trout rod in the wade gut and last weekend I got nailed on my 40lb spin rig in the 2nd gut. I'm debating whether I should gear up my line strength or gear down and add more line capacity. Maybe I should just accept the fact that I was simply outgunned twice!


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

fultonswimmer said:


> Wow.....talk about KISS. Here is my latest. All on a powerful 6'6" Ugly Stik with 15lb. P-Line using 25lb. shock leader. Exciting as apple pie on Mother's Day!
> Not to be outdone my fishing partner followed mine up with a nice fish using her 8' American Rodsmith with 17lb. P-Line tipped with 30lb. mono shock leader. Overkill needed? Nope!


Not trying to offend, but maybe you missed the discussion about catching big fish on bait rods. Those are nice fish, but no challenge on the gear you're fishing with.

This thread is talking about fish a lot larger than a 20# red.

BTW Surfguy, here is the shock leader knot I use. It's very small and goes through the guides easily.

http://www.breakawayusa.com/howto/shock-leader/


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

bigfost said:


> Not trying to offend, but maybe you missed the discussion about catching big fish on bait rods. Those are nice fish, but no challenge on the gear you're fishing with.
> 
> This thread is talking about fish a lot larger than a 20# red.
> 
> ...


 BF, Thank you sir!


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

bigfost said:


> BTW Surfguy, here is the shock leader knot I use. It's very small and goes through the guides easily.
> 
> http://www.breakawayusa.com/howto/shock-leader/


There are two knots, you use the blob or the overhand version? I've always wanted to try the blob but can't bring myself to trust it.


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

justletmein said:


> There are two knots, you use the blob or the overhand version? I've always wanted to try the blob but can't bring myself to trust it.


I use the overhand version. I sometimes have to tie it a couple of times to get one to lock down properly, but I've never had one fail after I was satisfied with it.


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

that blob thing is only for distance casting...
tie one, then pull on it... usually the melted blob pulls off.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

bigfost said:


> I use the overhand version. I sometimes have to tie it a couple of times to get one to lock down properly, but I've never had one fail after I was satisfied with it.


The test knots I've tried with overhand always seem to end up with a bitter knot than the uni-to-uni, maybe it's the way I tie them. Just seems difficult to get 80# line to make a proper overhand knot that stays put whereas the uni version is longer but the wraps are lined up so it always comes out thinner.


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

justletmein said:


> The test knots I've tried with overhand always seem to end up with a bigger knot than the uni-to-uni, maybe it's the way I tie them. Just seems difficult to get 80# line to make a proper overhand knot that stays put whereas the uni version is longer but the wraps are lined up so it always comes out thinner.


I cinch the overhand knot down pretty hard. I then allow a fairly long tag end on the running line because it will slip a good bit before it finally jams tight to the overhand knot.

If the uni to uni works better for you, that's what you should stick with. I know different people who each swear a different knot works best for them. That's really what it's all about. Every fisherman should settle on a short list of knots they have confidence in, and can tie well, in any conditions. I use about four or five knots for everything I do. I've been using them for years and can tie all of them in the rain, on a dark night, if I have to.

BTW, I don't do it, but I know a lot of people who put a drop of super glue on the finished shock leader knot. Besides extra security, they say it makes the knots run through the guides smoother.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

I could see the super glue smoothing things out but I've never tried it.


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

I guess i should have went back and reread you original post.....40lb equip, a reel that holds at least 350yds of line.....should catch 5 ' sharks all day long! I have never lost more than 100 yds in a fight. there have been times when i thought it could happen and thats when i will reach up and stop that spool dead! Thats not something i would do with lighter line.

Sometimes your gonna hook into a fish thats gonna laugh at your drag system.....Just gotta put it to him.....This technuiqe was showed to me years ago by a guy named david williams ( beach bum ) Some of you know him....the guy knows his shat! It has worked for me over the years 100 times....but wont work with LIGHT line! To each there own but im just not into the break away thing....Not an option!

My go to casting rig is a penn 9500 65 lb braid with an 80 lb topshot.....prob holds 450 yds total....great drag.....its a work horse!

Spend the inital cash and you wont have to worry about this again! Good luck!


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

JOHNNYREB said:


> I guess i should have went back and reread you original post.....40lb equip, a reel that holds at least 350yds of line.....should catch 5 ' sharks all day long! I have never lost more than 100 yds in a fight. there have been times when i thought it could happen and thats when i will reach up and stop that spool dead! Thats not something i would do with lighter line.
> 
> Sometimes your gonna hook into a fish thats gonna laugh at your drag system.....Just gotta put it to him.....This technuiqe was showed to me years ago by a guy named david williams ( beach bum ) Some of you know him....the guy knows his shat! It has worked for me over the years 100 times....but wont work with LIGHT line! To each there own but im just not into the break away thing....Not an option!
> 
> ...


My "big" spin reel setup is a Fin-Nor 9500 with 60# braid and 50# mono topshot rated at 40# max drag on an 11' Ocean Master 5-10oz but the fish decided to hit the lighter one in the 2nd gut. LOL!:headknock


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

Exactly what size reel got spooled.....trout equipment? ...sorry but im confused as hell....i read you were spooled on 40 class rod and reel.....

yes that fin-nor is definatly capable!


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

JOHNNYREB said:


> Exactly what size reel got spooled.....trout equipment? ...sorry but im confused as hell....i read you were spooled on 40 class rod and reel.....
> 
> yes that fin-nor is definatly capable!


Penn 6000 spinner with 25# max drag, 40# braid, 40# mono. I was stating the line strength, not the reel drag. Sorry if this was confusing.


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

I'm going to admit something here. I don't understand all this obsession with drag strength nowadays. I'm not a spinning guy, so can't speak for them, but in talking about conventional reels, I have never seen a surf casting size reel where you couldn't crank the star drag down tight enough to break 40 to 60# line. So, by definition, wouldn't that be the drag strength?

I also think drag strength is overrated. I've been fishing over 40 years (I know y'all are probably getting tired of reading that). In all those years, I've been spooled a handful of times, and most of those times were on bigger rigs. The last time was about four years ago when I couldn't begin to slow, what I'm pretty sure was, a very big Sandbar, on a Penn 68 loaded with 500 yards of 50# mono. I've caught dozens of big sharks to 6'+, and rays to 5' across the wings on my surf casting gear, and have never come close to getting spooled. My 25 and 30# mono and moderate drag handled those fish with no problem. I doubt I had more than 15 to 20 pounds of drag on any of those fish. If I need more than that, I use my thumbs.

Incidentally, on that big Sandbar, I finally cranked the star drag down tight and the 50# mono broke at the shock leader. I guess that means that old reel had 50# of drag. LOL

Anyway, once again, that's my 2 cents. That and a couple of bucks will buy you a coffee somewhere.


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

bigfost said:


> I'm going to admit something here. I don't understand all this obsession with drag strength nowadays. I'm not a spinning guy, so can't speak for them, but in talking about conventional reels, I have never seen a surf casting size reel where you couldn't crank the star drag down tight enough to break 40 to 60# line. So, by definition, wouldn't that be the drag strength?
> 
> I also think drag strength is overrated. I've been fishing over 40 years (I know y'all are probably getting tired of reading that). In all those years, I've been spooled a handful of times, and most of those times were on bigger rigs. The last time was about four years ago when I couldn't begin to slow, what I'm pretty sure was, a very big Sandbar, on a Penn 68 loaded with 500 yards of 50# mono. I've caught dozens of big sharks to 6'+, and rays to 5' across the wings on my surf casting gear, and have never come close to getting spooled. My 25 and 30# mono and moderate drag handled those fish with no problem. I doubt I had more than 15 to 20 pounds of drag on any of those fish. If I need more than that, I use my thumbs.
> 
> ...


My only thought on this is we may be underestimating the additional drag obtainable with the "thumb method" on conventional reels. Maybe some expert could tell us spinners are inherently weaker than conventionals and much weaker than conventionals + thumb. That's my 2c. By the way, I'm old enough to remember when advice and a quarter would get you a get you a cup of coffee instead of 2 bucks or 6 buck for Starbucks!


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

surfguy said:


> Penn 6000 spinner with 25# max drag, 40# braid, 40# mono. I was stating the line strength, not the reel drag. Sorry if this was confusing.


a quick google shows this reel has a spool capacity of 220/20 mono & 365/40 braid

if you put 40 lb mono and braid on it you probably had way too little line left on the spool to play a big fish... I'd back that reel with 150 yards of 50lb braid and top it with 20 lb mono... it will cast and fish like it was designed to do

again, if you don't slow a big fish before he takes you to the spool the line will snap at the arbor knot... there may be exceptions, but this is the general rule

like Bigfost and others have said, you might save that from happening if you can lock it down with some line still on the spool... there's a really good chance of knot failure instead of line breaking

based on the size of that reel, it is perfect for bullreds, jacks and small shark... if you set it up so that there is plenty of backing there is no reason you couldn't turn a 5-6' shark but you are going to have to give him a pretty good first run on lighter line... definitely want a bigger reel if you decide to target shark

I have no idea of the drag any of my reels can hold, I just keep plenty line on them and am careful with my knots and let fish run... thats one of the cool things about fishing the surf


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

I thought some more on this and think I have it figured out, so bear with me on my long explanation if you want to really know.

There are 2 forces at play here 1) Reel drag force and 2) Fish fighting force. Assume for now the fish fighting force is less than the fish static weight. i.e., a 100lb fish will not exert a 100lb force but something less. 

1. If the fish fighting force is greater than the reel drag force (regardless of line strength), the result will be spooled line to the spool. At that point, the reel drag force now becomes the total fighting force of the fisherman holding the reel. 
a. If the fish fighting force is less than the reel drag force and less 
than the line strength, theoretically, you should land the fish. 
b. If the line strength (at it's weakest point) is less than either of these
2 forces when the line runs out to the spool, the line will break at 
it's weakest point.
c. If the line strength (at it's weakest point) is greater than both
forces, theroetically, you should be able to keep the line from 
breaking even if the line runs down to the spool and assuming all 
knots are good including the spool knot.
2. What does all this mean?
a. It means there is no advantage to putting stronger line at the spool
to catch a bigger fish. The line will still break at the weakest point
when it runs out to the spool. 
b. You can increase the reel drag force several ways:
- tighten the reel drag to max
- thumb the line to add force to reel drag force
- hold the reel firmly when spooled and hope the line strength is
greater than the fish fighting force
3. Back to the assumption that the fish fighting force is less than the
static weight of the fish. This is proven fact since you can catch a 50lb
fish with 20lb line. Why? Because the fish weighs less in the water than
in the air due to buoyancy and the fish fighting force is not constant 
due to several factors such as fish fighting ability of different species,
line tension, direction, etc. 

If you're curious enough to read all this and believe it, you can now make sense of this entire discussion. Tight lines, Hold firmly when spooled and hope your line is stronger than the fish!


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

when a fish is taking me to the spool I am RUNNING towards it whether on the sand or the jetties


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

jc said:


> a quick google shows this reel has a spool capacity of 220/20 mono & 365/40 braid
> 
> if you put 40 lb mono and braid on it you probably had way too little line left on the spool to play a big fish... I'd back that reel with 150 yards of 50lb braid and top it with 20 lb mono... it will cast and fish like it was designed to do
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said and in my case the total line capacity on this reel did not allow me enough line to "let him run". This fish was so strong, it took 150yds in about 15sec. I was spooled in less than 30sec. I'm telling you it was Godzilla feasting on baitfish in the 2nd gut. Scary huh!


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

jc said:


> when a fish is taking me to the spool I am RUNNING towards it whether on the sand or the jetties


I did too and it did not help!


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

surfguy said:


> I agree with everything you said and in my case the total line capacity on this reel did not allow me enough line to "let him run". This fish was so strong, it took 150yds in about 15sec. I was spooled in less than 30sec. I'm telling you it was Godzilla feasting on baitfish in the 2nd gut. Scary huh!


if you had much line at all out on that reel the fish didn't take 150yards if I understand the way you had it set up. How much 40lb braid was on it and how much 40lb mono??


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

jc said:


> if you had much line at all out on that reel the fish didn't take 150yards if I understand the way you had it set up. How much 40lb braid was on it and how much 40lb mono??


From my recollection, I had about 250yds of 40 braid and about 75yds of 40 mono and all the mono was out past my rod tip. If I had 50 braid and 20 mono, I might have had a chance to let him run out enough to turn him but not sure. I do plan on using your setup from now on.


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

surfguy said:


> I thought some more on this and think I have it figured out, so bear with me on my long explanation if you want to really know.
> 
> There are 2 forces at play here 1) Reel drag force and 2) Fish fighting force. Assume for now the fish fighting force is less than the fish static weight. i.e., a 100lb fish will not exert a 100lb force but something less.
> 
> ...


Final conclusions on different setups:

1. Worst setup - Braid backing with higher strength mono topshot. Highest risk of losing all your line (including expensive braid) on a big fish because the braid is the weakest point in the line and the bigger diameter mono reduces total line capacity.

2. Average setup - Braid backing strength equal to mono topshot.
Equal risk of losing braid and mono since all the line is the weakest point. Also reduces total line capacity but not as much as setup #1. High risk of getting spooled on a big fish.

3. Best setup - Braid backing with lower strength mono topshot. Weakest point is the mono and will break first on a big fish and more expensive braid is saved. Maximizes total line capacity which allows you to play the fish and reduce the fish fighting force. Reduces the risk of getting spooled.

Reel drag force is not important unless you increase the line strength and want to "winch" a smaller fish in.

Higher line capacity is more important than reel drag force or line strength.
Reduces the risk of getting spooled by allowing the fish to run out thus reducing fish fighting force below the reel drag force and line strength.


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

This has turned into a very analytical discussion, which I love. I've always been one to try to continually think of better, more efficient ways of doing things regarding my fishing.

However, there is one last factor that hasn't been considered, although alluded to.

There is always going to be that big momma you're not going to stop no matter your best laid plans. Granted, you are less likely to encounter one of these on a surf cast rig, simply because fish of that size aren't usually attracted to the relatively small baits we use. However, they are out there, and will occasionally take a small bait.

Years ago, in my pier fishing days, my buddy and I had a couple week stretch where we were being plagued with sharks too big to stop. We were both fishing Penn 68s, which have roughly the same line capacity as a 6/0. 50# line wouldn't stop them. 60# line wouldn't stop them. We finally found some 72# mono, which I've never seen again. We spooled our 68s to the brim with 72# line, and you know what happened? We would get one of those bad boys on, and we would crank the drag down to the point we couldn't pick the rod up off the rail, and we still couldn't stop the sharks.

Like I said initially, thrilling and frustrating at the same time.


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## jagarcia10 (Mar 10, 2011)

Guys, just get you one of these and call it a day.


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

WHAT said:


> Guys, just get you one of these and call it a day.


LOL!!! And a keg of beer. :brew:


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

bigfost said:


> This has turned into a very analytical discussion, which I love. I've always been one to try to continually think of better, more efficient ways of doing things regarding my fishing.
> 
> However, there is one last factor that hasn't been considered, although alluded to.
> 
> ...


I'm satisfied now that I analyzed it completely and confirmed you experts know what you are doing using higher braid backing and lower mono topshot to maximize the probability to catch a really big fish on light tackle. Case closed in my book.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

Hey I didn't say you could use that pic of me with my trout rod.



WHAT said:


> Guys, just get you one of these and call it a day.


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

bigfost said:


> There is always going to be that big momma you're not going to stop no matter your best laid plans. Granted, you are less likely to encounter one of these on a surf cast rig, simply because fish of that size aren't usually attracted to the relatively small baits we use. However, they are out there, and will occasionally take a small bait.


I grew up fishing 6 & 8 lb mono in the sticks near Abilene, only having been offshore fishing a couple times by the time I was in my mid-20's. After school I ended up in Houston in the mid-90's and started to explore the saltwater. Had the opportunity to wk 10 days straight in the valley and were staying on SPI in the rv park next to the Queen Isabella Causeway. I brought a 6' casting rod for bay but was really interested in fishing the jetties because I had never done so. I ended up with an 8' buggy whip rod and a graphite spinning reel that held maybe 200 yards of 15lb mono... not catching anything except hardheads in the surf (from jetties) one evening I clip the dorsal off a hardhead and make a nice mid-body chunk bait and toss it into the channel side. 5-10 minutes later something picks it up and smokes all the line off the reel in about 20-30 seconds... I'm a novice and simply watch the line melt off and freak out on the pull and then PING!

Next day I spool the reel with heavier mono, probably 30 but I have no real clue on the details... the exact same thing happened. Catch hardhead in surf, cut bait, toss into channel and totally spooled within, all within about 15 minutes.

Next day I buy heavier mono and realize something is definitely not right when the line is obviously way too heavy for the spool and I can only fit 75 or 100 yeards on it. Nevermind that, I had a plan! My buddy goes with me that night to see for himself. We catch hardhead, cut bait, clear a path on the rocks heading out the jetties and have a good light. Toss bait into channel 10-20 minutes later I have a pickup. Brad lights my path, I grab the rod and sprint down the jetties. I made it about 30-40 yards and PING!

Needless to say, after getting back to Houston a few days later I picked up a 10' Uglystick with the biggest saltwater spinning reel Penn made at the time and it has all been downhill since...

as I evolved in my surfishing (have a long way to go I'm sure) I have come to a couple conclusions

if you want to go big, do it right. Get a heavy rig to target heavy fish. Use baits that wont get pickups from large hardheads, pupsharks etc.

on medium and light surf casting gear, keep it medium and light! 15-30lb mono tops... the rods and reels are designed to CAST and PERFORM with these lines... currently I back med reel with 50lb mono and have a couple hundred yards of 30lb mono... on my lighter stuff I am converting to straight 30lb braid... without a doubt I can turn and land a 5' shark on any of these setups in favorable conditions

Its a total rush to turn a big fish on lighter gear. Its a huge let down to crank in a small fish on bigger gear. Big fish like big baits but on occasion a 5.5' shark will swim by and eat a live finger mullet rigged for a slot red... imo, when that happens you are much better off having a lot of 20 lb line than a little 40lb line. Sometimes you are just going to friggin get smoked and the possibility of hooking that fish again is what keeps me going back


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

jc said:


> I grew up fishing 6 & 8 lb mono in the sticks near Abilene, only having been offshore fishing a couple times by the time I was in my mid-20's. After school I ended up in Houston in the mid-90's and started to explore the saltwater. Had the opportunity to wk 10 days straight in the valley and were staying on SPI in the rv park next to the Queen Isabella Causeway. I brought a 6' casting rod for bay but was really interested in fishing the jetties because I had never done so. I ended up with an 8' buggy whip rod and a graphite spinning reel that held maybe 200 yards of 15lb mono... not catching anything except hardheads in the surf (from jetties) one evening I clip the dorsal off a hardhead and make a nice mid-body chunk bait and toss it into the channel side. 5-10 minutes later something picks it up and smokes all the line off the reel in about 20-30 seconds... I'm a novice and simply watch the line melt off and freak out on the pull and then PING!
> 
> Next day I spool the reel with heavier mono, probably 30 but I have no real clue on the details... the exact same thing happened. Catch hardhead in surf, cut bait, toss into channel and totally spooled within, all within about 15 minutes.
> 
> ...


JC, well said my friend!


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

Light in the line.....light in the loafers :biggrin:


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## spicyitalian (Jan 18, 2012)

surfguy said:


> Final conclusions on different setups:
> 
> 1. Worst setup - Braid backing with higher strength mono topshot. Highest risk of losing all your line (including expensive braid) on a big fish because the braid is the weakest point in the line and the bigger diameter mono reduces total line capacity.


I'm going to have to put in a couple of pennies here. I've read articles about the difference in rated strength of braid and actual strength. They are quite different with almost all braids. I wish I had the link to the article right here, but the one thing I do remember is that the line I was using broke at over 150% of it's rating. Of course this depends on the condition of the line, but I would feel pretty confident in mono breaking well before an equivalent braid, so I wouldn't hesitate to put a little heavier mono as a topshot.

(here's a link to a post with some of the referenced info, not the one I was originally thinking about: http://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=119707.5;wap2 )

That being said, my rigs are set up with an equivalent rated mono backing with braid on top. I use no shock leader. I realize this puts me at risk for losing my braid and all, but the main reason I do it that way is for casting distance. I'm also only casting maybe 3-4 oz weights and not doing the superman casting that some of these guys can do from the surf.

So it's the full 300 yard spool on the reel (150 for the smaller ones) and then top off with mono. Then unspool and respool backwards. Makes for a fun time playing with fishing equipment when I can't actually be fishing.


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

spicyitalian said:


> I'm going to have to put in a couple of pennies here. I've read articles about the difference in rated strength of braid and actual strength. They are quite different with almost all braids. I wish I had the link to the article right here, but the one thing I do remember is that the line I was using broke at over 150% of it's rating. Of course this depends on the condition of the line, but I would feel pretty confident in mono breaking well before an equivalent braid, so I wouldn't hesitate to put a little heavier mono as a topshot.
> 
> (here's a link to a post with some of the referenced info, not the one I was originally thinking about: http://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=119707.5;wap2 )
> 
> ...


Keep in mind, this discussion was focused on catching huge fish on light tackle. Do you believe the braid topshot gives you more casting distance because it's smaller diameter? Pls explain.


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

ummmmm.......think im gonna go fishing......


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## spicyitalian (Jan 18, 2012)

surfguy said:


> Keep in mind, this discussion was focused on catching huge fish on light tackle. Do you believe the braid topshot gives you more casting distance because it's smaller diameter? Pls explain.


Yes, I do think I can cast much better with 30# braid than 30# mono as my topshot.

I am using pretty light tackle. All the rods I use are medium action, 7-10 ft, with spinning reels in the 60-80 class (or whatever those numbers mean). I mostly look at capacity when I'm picking something out. I want to have enough line that if I get a big run, there is less of a chance of getting spooled. I know it's always an option as you have shown, even close up.

I painted out some markings on the long end of my lot to see how far the wife and I could cast with our rigs and braid. I figured no more than 50 yards, so I marked out something like 150 feet from close to the street. My first cast well eclipsed that and I had to get my weight out of the top of some pine trees. My wife doesn't have as good of aim, and lets say I'm lucky that I didn't have to replace a window in my truck that I though was well out of her range.

I haven't yet spooled them with mono to compare, but just with being on the beach, I could tell a difference immediately. I was putting baits where I wanted, with less effort than when I had the mono on. I guess I've just been using braid so long that I am just that much more used to it. I always wrap my casting finger, always use a towel or glove to yank on it, haven't had a know fail, and I almost always bend a hook or break tackle before it gives. I accept the sacrifice of checking for sand abrasion before each trip and losing a few yards to it. Even with that, I normally only have to take some off after every 10 or so trips.


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## spicyitalian (Jan 18, 2012)

JOHNNYREB said:


> ummmmm.......think im gonna go fishing......


And I'm with you. Tomorrow can't get here soon enough.


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

spicyitalian said:


> Yes, I do think I can cast much better with 30# braid than 30# mono as my topshot.
> 
> I am using pretty light tackle. All the rods I use are medium action, 7-10 ft, with spinning reels in the 60-80 class (or whatever those numbers mean). I mostly look at capacity when I'm picking something out. I want to have enough line that if I get a big run, there is less of a chance of getting spooled. I know it's always an option as you have shown, even close up.
> 
> ...


my only question would be why don't you just spool the mono backing on, then tie the braid topper directly to it. Why the re-spool?

Also, you're not the first to use straight braid to the leader with no top-shot... Curtis (Kermit) has done this for years with great success on PINS and the Mansfield Jetties... so I know it works just fine

I have gone to straight braid on my Curado & Citica and even my 10'6" caster, but on that one I do use a 30lb mono shockleader... mostly out of habit and something to leader a bigger fish that is easy on the hands... I may consider going to a 50 or 100 lb braid shockleader because I just dont trust the 30lb braid diameter on sand bars and gill plates

good on you for test casting etc, smaller diameter lines cast way better, there's no doubt. How does your street cast distance compare to real fishing distance?


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

Why put braid on top of mono, if you're gonna do that why not go with braid all the way?


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

jc said:


> my only question would be why don't you just spool the mono backing on, then tie the braid topper directly to it. Why the re-spool?
> 
> Also, you're not the first to use straight braid to the leader with no top-shot... Curtis (Kermit) has done this for years with great success on PINS and the Mansfield Jetties... so I know it works just fine
> 
> ...


For awhile, I had a couple reels spooled with all braid until I got a few snags (probably a sunken log) and lost most of my braid. Got a bit expensive. If you are willing to lose some braid, another option would be braid-mono-braid-shock leader. Ever tried that?


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

My .02....to me its all about eliminating the possibility of failure! I am constantly cutting back mono topshot because of knicks/ abraison spots etc. You get a good nick in braid.....bye bye fish! Is it really worth the risk to lose a fish because you think you can get away with it....sorry but i dont understand this concept. Braid.....great strength, small diameter, no stretch. Not abrasion resistant! The risk grossly outwieghs any gain.

I have also seen people snap braid right at the knot because of the no stretch value, terminal tackle aint cheep!


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

JOHNNYREB said:


> MBraid.....great strength, small diameter, no stretch. Not abrasion resistant!


That's the complaint I've heard. The guys I know who have tried running straight braid have gotten away from it because just rubbing on the sand bars will weaken it.


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## spicyitalian (Jan 18, 2012)

jc said:


> my only question would be why don't you just spool the mono backing on, then tie the braid topper directly to it. Why the re-spool?
> 
> Also, you're not the first to use straight braid to the leader with no top-shot... Curtis (Kermit) has done this for years with great success on PINS and the Mansfield Jetties... so I know it works just fine
> 
> ...


The respool is because I'm anal and want to get as much mono on the back as I can so that I have as much available line as possible. This way I can put on the whole spool of braid and then knot and finish it off with mono. Then get it backwards to the configuration I want. I guess you can't fix crazy.

My best guess is that I'm getting about 75% cast distance on the beach as what I got on the street. A lot of that is wind, extra leader/bait, and being in the water, etc. It's kind of hard to gauge how far casts are going on the beach though. The waves don't stand still long enough for me to measure them.


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## spicyitalian (Jan 18, 2012)

justletmein said:


> Why put braid on top of mono, if you're gonna do that why not go with braid all the way?


That's been a consideration. Mostly I don't so all braid because I can't get bigger than 300 yard spools here locally. It was just cheaper to put some mono backing on it. I would probably go with all braid if I could find it in a 500 yard spool without having to get it on the internet.

I'm also still relatively new to the Surf Fishing game, so I'm trying out things to see what works for me. So far I haven't been lucky enough to get hold of anything big enough to spool me.


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

mark your line when you cast from the pier or into the surf then measure it by casting down the beach on dry sand

Johnny, I'm not convinced that there is that much difference in abrasion resistance between mono and braid... maybe I just havent learned that tough lesson yet but I think what will cut braid will also cut mono. This was pointed out to me while fishing in the bay around oyster reefs with die-hard braid casters... I have been cutoff at a sandbar and from gill plates with mono and braid... sandbars on the main line and gill plates on mono leaders... for me the jury is still out because I like to learn it first hand... I can say I have been 100% sold on braid backing for surf reels for years and have recently been sold on straight 30lb braid on plugging rods for a couple years... last fall I managed to turn a 40"+ jack on curado/30# braid and keep it in the first gut until he got a second wind on me and took me over the second sandbar... 18" flouro leader was shredded and I think it was in his gills but he could have snagged some steel in the sand or the perfect shell... none the less, it was an epic 40 seconds of amazing topwater fail :rotfl: I sure miss that she-dog


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## spicyitalian (Jan 18, 2012)

jc said:


> mark your line when you cast from the pier or into the surf then measure it by casting down the beach on dry sand


That would make the most sense, good idea. Normally I'm not all that worried as long as I put bait where I want it to go. But obviously I'm curious if I went through the trouble of marking out the yard. Then again, I think we were a few weeks off of being able to go fishing again, I may have just really wanted to put hands on equipment.

Does anyone else have an idea of what kind of casting distances they get on the beach? I know there are huge differences with rigs and weights and such. But in general what kinds of distances are you happy getting consistently?


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

jon, on any type of lure chunkin rig i dont use a topshot or shock leader of any type, just a short flouro leader....Im only talking about something thats casted at some distance with weight on the bottom.

Many times i have brought in equipmet where the mono was obvouilsly rubbing on the bar....replaced my topshot and was good to go......many times i have brought in frayed braid with no equipment at all.....50 to 75 dollar leader gone.

I guess in the end its all just opinion.....as long as it works for ya go for it...just my experience with how the two hold upin the conditions i fish.... Good luck to all!


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

spicyitalian said:


> That would make the most sense, good idea. Normally I'm not all that worried as long as I put bait where I want it to go. But obviously I'm curious if I went through the trouble of marking out the yard. Then again, I think we were a few weeks off of being able to go fishing again, I may have just really wanted to put hands on equipment.
> 
> Does anyone else have an idea of what kind of casting distances they get on the beach? I know there are huge differences with rigs and weights and such. But in general what kinds of distances are you happy getting consistently?


Eight and bait....not really a cast but a 35 yard lob:biggrin:

Smaller baits with 3 to 4 oz breakaway weights....about 60 to 70 yards

Happy if i can put it in the gut i wanna fish!


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

Added in casting distances to my list:

Penn 4000 spinner / 20# braid-20# mono / 7' ultralight Ugly Stick - Bait rod used in the wade gut. Casting - 50-75 yds (2oz + bait)

2 Penn 6000 spinner / 40# braid-40# mono-60# mono shock leader / 9' OceanMaster 1-3oz - Converting to 50# braid-20#mono. Primarily used in 1st/2nd gut. Casting 75-100yds. (3oz + bait)

Torium30 / 50# braid-40# mono-80# mono shock leader / 10' OceanMaster 1-4oz - Primarily used in the 2nd gut. Casting 60-80yds. (4oz + bait)

Fin-Nor MA30 single speed / 60# braid-40# mono - 80# mono shock leader / 10' OceanMaster 1-4oz - Primarily used in 2nd gut. Casting 60-80yds. (4oz + bait)

Fin-Nor OFS95 spinner / 60# braid-40# mono- 100# mono shock leader / 11' OceanMaster 5-10oz - Primarily used with bigger baits in 2nd/3rd gut.
Casting 70-100yds (8 + bait).


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## Fishingmatt (Aug 16, 2012)

WHAT said:


> Guys, just get you one of these and call it a day.


Now that's funny.... Lol bait rod??


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

I don't even care about casting distance. That's one advantage of having a yak. I try to spread my baits out at different distances. I might have baits everywhere from the wade gut to 300 yards out.

If I had to put up a number, I'd say my average weight and bait cast is 50 yards. Between that and the yakked baits, I manage to catch a couple hundred bull reds and sharks a year. That's good enough for me.

If the wade gut is deep enough, or the water cold enough, I'll yak everything out from 100 to 300 yards. LOL


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

DANO said:


> That right there is a true statement.


Yep, but be careful you don't have the rod centered with your body when the line does finally break. Almost received a concussion from a Power Stik and 450g loaded with 50lb braid when it broke. :banghead:


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

JOHNNYREB said:


> jon, on any type of lure chunkin rig i dont use a topshot or shock leader of any type, just a short flouro leader....Im only talking about something thats casted at some distance with weight on the bottom.
> 
> Many times i have brought in equipmet where the mono was obvouilsly rubbing on the bar....replaced my topshot and was good to go......many times i have brought in frayed braid with no equipment at all.....50 to 75 dollar leader gone.
> 
> I guess in the end its all just opinion.....as long as it works for ya go for it...just my experience with how the two hold upin the conditions i fish.... Good luck to all!


I certainly respect your opinion and thank you for sharing your experience but I am still gonna keep braid on my lighter casting gear... I rig my lure chunkers the same way and am happy. The only long rod I am fishing straight braid on now is a first gut lightweight... have been casting 2oz with shimp and fishbites... gonna win sharkadong redfish division throwing "nearly" free-swimming finger mullet with it... probably going to keep the 30lb shock leader because I like a little stretch, its forgiving and disposable when it gets roughed up

but I have to ask... how the fudge do you spend $50 on a leader??? I thought Nick was bending me over in that sweatshop at $4.99


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

jc said:


> but I have to ask... how the fudge do you spend $50 on a leader??? I thought Nick was bending me over in that sweatshop at $4.99


:cheers:

I keep reading about these high dollar leaders. I guess I'm doing something wrong. Even on the 20 foot shark leaders I used to build, I would have less than $10 in materials in them.


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## johnmyjohn (Aug 6, 2006)

Good reading here. I do have some advice on you spinner guys and learned this from building rods with micro eyes. If you are looking for distance on a spinner go all braid verses mono top shot. The micro eyes amplified the the resistance the different lines made as they peeled off the spool while casting. The braid performed much better even with heavier wieght, esspecially when casting against the wind. The mono is stiffer and wants to fly outward more from the spool than the braid.


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

jc said:


> I certainly respect your opinion and thank you for sharing your experience but I am still gonna keep braid on my lighter casting gear... I rig my lure chunkers the same way and am happy. The only long rod I am fishing straight braid on now is a first gut lightweight... have been casting 2oz with shimp and fishbites... gonna win sharkadong redfish division throwing "nearly" free-swimming finger mullet with it... probably going to keep the 30lb shock leader because I like a little stretch, its forgiving and disposable when it gets roughed up
> 
> but I have to ask... how the fudge do you spend $50 on a leader??? I thought Nick was bending me over in that sweatshop at $4.99


30' 3/32 ss cable
6' 3/32 ss coated cable drops
2 16/0 j hooks
2 1200lb swivels
1 ss coupler
8 copper crimps
1-2 lb big lou weight....if anyone can build me one of these for 20 bucks....i will bend over for ya!

These are just my big shark leaders....but the ones im most prone to lose. I do use floats but when the weeds to heavy, that just opens up a whole new can of worms!


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

jc said:


> I certainly respect your opinion and thank you for sharing your experience but I am still gonna keep braid on my lighter casting gear... I rig my lure chunkers the same way and am happy. The only long rod I am fishing straight braid on now is a first gut lightweight... have been casting 2oz with shimp and fishbites... gonna win sharkadong redfish division throwing "nearly" free-swimming finger mullet with it... probably going to keep the 30lb shock leader because I like a little stretch, its forgiving and disposable when it gets roughed up
> 
> but I have to ask... how the fudge do you spend $50 on a leader??? I thought Nick was bending me over in that sweatshop at $4.99


LOL....im also thinking we are talking about 2 entirely different things!


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## surfguy (May 17, 2011)

johnmyjohn said:


> Good reading here. I do have some advice on you spinner guys and learned this from building rods with micro eyes. If you are looking for distance on a spinner go all braid verses mono top shot. The micro eyes amplified the the resistance the different lines made as they peeled off the spool while casting. The braid performed much better even with heavier wieght, esspecially when casting against the wind. The mono is stiffer and wants to fly outward more from the spool than the braid.


I was thinking it was mostly due to the diameter of the line but did not consider the stiffness. As we know, mono is 2-3x thicker than braid at the same strength, so I would think this would be another advantage of putting lighter mono topshot with a diameter equivalent to the higher strength braid. For example: 50# braid backing and 20# mono topshot would have the same diameter and solve this issue.


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

JOHNNYREB said:


> LOL....im also thinking we are talking about 2 entirely different things!


Yup, if you want, one of these days I could teach ya how to surf-fish!


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

jc said:


> Yup, if you want, one of these days I could teach ya how to surf-fish!


LOL....i think i know how to catch whiting:biggrin:


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## johnmyjohn (Aug 6, 2006)

surfguy said:


> I was thinking it was mostly due to the diameter of the line but did not consider the stiffness. As we know, mono is 2-3x thicker than braid at the same strength, so I would think this would be another advantage of putting lighter mono topshot with a diameter equivalent to the higher strength braid. For example: 50# braid backing and 20# mono topshot would have the same diameter and solve this issue.


 That would be a good remedy. I myself am at my limit at 25lb test as mentioned. I would also personally consider this test line, 20lb mono, almost being at the bottom of surf fishing scale for the type of fish I target or might catch. I have two new and three rebuilds surf rods on my calender. They will be built to use mono or braid for bait casting reels or all braid for spinners (eye types and placement). The rods will be to use with either reel type. I've found if you can splice mono to braid you can be economic and splice braid to braid when it starts fraying. Knots will be no issue on braid to braid. When needing larger test line braid as you mentioned is smaller and will take less drag from tide movements and the wind. Braid at any size will always be more limp and out perform mono but you have to have a yak or be and excellent bait reel caster for surf fishing. I am a bit old fashioned and tend to like mono but slowly changing with the times. Back in the 70's I was using dacron or squiding line on one of my 4/0 topped with mono for a small edge on line capacity. Dacron was expencive to me back then and went back to all mono. All this computer fishing is giving me a need to hit the beach.


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

dont be afraid to try casting braid on a baitcaster! I have done it using a 10'06" rod with light casting reel for 4-5 of my last trips and havent had to cut an inch off the braid... have pulled a few minor birdsnests but just start casting slowly on each trip... one thing I started doing right off the bat is lowering the rod tip and reeling the dry line thru the surf anytime after my set up was in rodholder long enough for the line to dry out... just seems to cast better when line is wet... I am casting 30lb power pro with 30lb mono shockleader


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