# .30-06 or .308??



## Archer (Jul 10, 2006)

Silly question coming from someone named Archer, but I am Buying a new rifle this year. The rifle will be a general purpose gun for larger game at medium-long ranges, Mulies, Elk, Caribou, Bear etc. hunting everywhere from W. Texas to Alaska. If y'all had to choose which one would you select and why. 

Personally I am kind of partial to the .308, a holdover from my military days, but I am trying to balance the ability to reach out and touch something with the ability to knock it flat on it's *****, and I have limited experience with the .30-06. 

Thanks in advance for any and all opinions.


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## Rex22 (Jan 26, 2007)

Between those two...30-06 but if I were you I would lean towards a 7mm or 300 probably in an Ultra mag....just my .02


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Well the 06 has a little more umph and probably a little easier to buy ammo

Charlie


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## Hard Head (May 21, 2004)

.300 Mag or Ultra Mag would be my choice. Shoots a heavier grain bullet and has more energy at longer distances.


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## KIKO (Oct 24, 2006)

*30.06*

The 30.06 is the perfect cartrige for your needs. You can find ammo ranging from a sabot 55 gr. for varmits to 220gr for large game such as moose. For a general purpose round I would go with the 165gr. bullet and shoot anythig in North America.


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## skinnyme (May 24, 2004)

The 30-06 is going to offer a little more pop but I doubt the animal you just shot would know any difference. I'm partial to the 308 because of the incredible accuracy this round has provided me over the years, its a short action, and has minimal recoil for a .30 cal.

A 308 loaded with 165gr TSX would be sweet!!!!!!


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## ZenDaddy (May 22, 2004)

*That's an easy question!*



Archer said:


> The rifle will be a general purpose gun for larger game at medium-long ranges, Mulies, Elk, Caribou, Bear etc. hunting everywhere from W. Texas to Alaska. If y'all had to choose which one would you select and why.


This line makes me believe the 30.06 is the best way to go. Likely more choice in ammo - particularly in terms of heavier grains.

However, the best solution is one of each.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Something you never hear....*

"There he stood, the trophy of a lifetime...but my 30.06 let me down."


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## DUKFVR (Aug 19, 2004)

308 for me.


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## Pktdeace (Apr 13, 2006)

30.06


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## Syncerus (Oct 18, 2005)

I'll be different. Which rifle do you like best? That might tell you what caliber to select.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

There is not a deer in Texas that will know the difference between the two at less than 200 yards.


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## pevotva (Sep 7, 2005)

If you have the time this is a good read. 30-06 for me.

http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/30_06_springfield/


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## GDO (Jun 15, 2005)

300 Win Mag because modern firearms are lightweight and the 300 gives you longer range which you will need for hunting these animals.

Or you could just go with the 50 BMG and not have a question at all!!!


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## Reel Blessed (Apr 7, 2005)

If I had to choose between the two I would choose the 30-06. I sure do love my 30-06. I shoot 180 gr. silver tips and 99.9% of the animals that I shoot don't even flinch! I get a little kick every once in a while. LOL!

I also agree that the 300 win mag would be better for the larger animals that you might target.


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## Swampus (Sep 1, 2005)

30-06 way better knock down wide range Rifle!--seen many an animal wonded w/ 308.


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## Brewgod (May 21, 2004)

100+ years of use. 30.06 has assuredly harvested every known North American game animal multiple times. Availability of ammo and range of loads Hands down winner...


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## JustJoe13 (Jul 13, 2007)

I too would take the .308, But the -06 is gonna have the gettyup and go to get thru Bear hide at any decent distance. I saw it somewhere on here, but 7mm mag would do good too. Im lookn to get a rifle this year, but Im just gonna use it for pigs in East Texas so Im staying with the .308.

Let us know what ya get and keep us upto date on your satisfacion level with it.


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## mickey839 (Jun 10, 2006)

.308...there's a reason police and military snipers use it almost exclusively


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## 220swifter (Apr 5, 2005)

between those two, for the type of hunting described, absolutely the -06.


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## Cru (May 24, 2004)

.30-06 can do everything the .308 can do and then some


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## wil.k (Aug 22, 2005)

30-06 Is what I have been shooting for years & years and I am still happy with it(I have tried an 08, 7mm Mag,300 etc) 06 is the one for me....just my opinon


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

300 win mag.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

mickey839 said:


> .308...there's a reason police and military snipers use it almost exclusively


The reason is they arent up with modern balistics.
How can a 243 case push a 160 grain, .308 bullet, farther or faster than a long action case, such as a 30-06 or 300 win mag. They all have the same bullets.
There is no way a .308 cal. can out perform a long action round with the same bullet size.
They might as well be shooting .243's.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

The police and snipers usually are not shooting thick skinned animals.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

For 99% of the time, it will not make a lick of difference. 1% of the time, -06 will be slightly better, assuming good hand loads in both. Buying ammo at Wal-Mart or Gibsons (for the old timers), -06 is easier to find.


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

1. 30.06
2. 300 WSM
3. .308

All of the above will do the job just fine.


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## JustJoe13 (Jul 13, 2007)

mickey839 said:


> .308...there's a reason police and military snipers use it almost exclusively


Yeah but the police and military arent triing to penetrate bear fur n hide at 500yrs. I shot the m-40A1 for years when I was in and it can definatelly reach out and touch someone. But for knockdown, the -06 has the punch it needs and its just as accurate...well depending on the gun, the ammo and the shooter.


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

*the switch*



Redfishr said:


> The reason is they arent up with modern balistics.
> How can a 243 case push a 160 grain, .308 bullet, farther or faster than a long action case, such as a 30-06 or 300 win mag. They all have the same bullets.
> There is no way a .308 cal. can out perform a long action round with the same bullet size.
> They might as well be shooting .243's.


 when i was out in the field we ask for 300mag or a .50 bar , .50 for distance!! 300MAG KPH , a cops avg shot is + /- 100m with a 308 , go 30-06 or better


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

*It's all about ballistics*

Here are the big old time three. The .308, the .30-06 and the .300 Win Mag.

You decide.

TH


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## El Cazador (Mar 4, 2005)

I'd go with the 30-06. I wouldn't trust the .308 on elk or bear out to 300 yards. The .308 I'm sure works great on people, but an animal at long range? I'd go with the '06.


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## Trigger Man (Sep 5, 2007)

i shoot a 30-06 for hunting
most of the extremely accurate round in the 308 are match bullets not intended for hunting use


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## spotsndots (May 20, 2005)

I went thru this same decision several years ago and went with the 30.06 and very happy with the decision. It does everything I'll need it to do for my hunting needs.


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## Trigger Man (Sep 5, 2007)

almost forgot
Wal-Mart in Kingsville has several rifles on clearance
im not sure exact makes and models but i was told remington 700's in 30-06 were included
that would make a much easier decision for me


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## Archer (Jul 10, 2006)

Thanks for all the answers guys. It really opened my eyes. Triggerman you are correct, that would make the descision easier. Unfortunately I am sure that anyone will be hard pressed to find a left handed bolt action rifle on clearance anywhere.


I long ago decided on the Savage 111L series for several reasons. For the price it's a great rifle, extremely accurate right out of the box and I don't have to have the trigger worked on first. They are also one of the few manufacturers who don't charge extra for the lefty model. My other choice would be a Weatherby Vanguard but they don't as yet come in a lefty model.


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## JWHITE (Oct 17, 2006)

I have both. A S&W 1500 in .30-06 and a Remy 700 in .308. Both of them do a great job of dispatching animals. I have cousins in Montana that ROUTINELY kill Elk with a .308. The difference in the energy and velocity of the two rounds is minimal. I say shoot both rounds and buy the one you are most comfortable with. I have also seen a lot of talk about downrange energy here. It is all a matter of velocity, ballistics coefficient and sectional density of the bullet. That being said, a 6.5 mm bullet (.257") of a given weight will have more downrange energy than the same weight bullet in say .30 cal. So, why not buy a 6.5 mm for the job? It all ultimately depends on the shot placement anyway!


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## tx064deer (Aug 7, 2005)

06 all the way , they are almost the same , the 308 was built to replace the 06 by the military but the 06 can handle the heavier bullets better than the 308


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## GDO (Jun 15, 2005)

Looks like the proof is in the puddin so to speak huh TH?

Like I said initially, go with the 300 Win Mag!!!


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## tboltmike (Jun 21, 2006)

If you are willing to pack a few more ounces, an extra two inches of bbl length has the affect of an up grade. I have a 26" bbl .308 and get 2900 fps with a 168 gr handloads. I'd be willing to bet a 26" '06 would near the 300 Winmag velocity with less expensive ammo.


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## skinnyme (May 24, 2004)

Trigger Man said:


> i shoot a 30-06 for hunting
> most of the extremely accurate round in the 308 are match bullets not intended for hunting use


FWIW, I've shot tons of furry critters with 175 Sierra matchkings and they kill very nicely. They always make two holes and best of all, they hold about .38MOA out to about 800 yards. If anything, I wish they expanded a little more than they do. I've heard Horndady AMAX's are perfect for our TX animals but I've never shot anything with them other than paper.

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an elk out to 500 yards with a 165gr TSX. I've talked to several guys that have killed elk with 175 gr SMK's with their 308's.

Yes the other calibers offer better balistics but lets be realistic for a second. How many us can ethically kill out past 300 yards? From that range and closer, how big of a differece will a couple hundred feet per second in velocity make? Will the animal be that much more dead?

Not knocking any other calibers, I just don't think some people are giving the 308 its due. For me its all about accuracy and low recoil.


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## redduck (Jul 26, 2006)

I have had both 308 and 30-06. Ballistically there is not much difference in the two calibers. Way back when (1964) I was faced with the same decision. Since I liked the automatic I went with the 308 Winchester model 100. I felt it was faster and less likely to jam. It has been one of my favorite rifles. Having said that if I was going with a bolt action, I would go with the 30-06 because the size and bullet types are greater and any store that sells ammo has 30-06 all over the world.


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## mickey839 (Jun 10, 2006)

I tried posting a chart from Hornady's website, but it didn't turn out...the only thing I would say about the info provided is you're comparing different grains of bullets. But even with the data provided, the differences are going to be nominal.

Realistically, any of the three will adequately do what you're looking for. I may be the oddball because I like my .308, but at the same time, I know what I can do with it as well. I know I can consistantly hit an orange at 300 yards and can shoot it accurately out to at least 700. Ethically though, I doubt very many people here would try a 700 yard shot in hunting conditions, myself included. Therefore, lets say your longest shot under hunting conditions will be 300...maybe 400 yards? With a well placed shot hunting what you described, no animal will know the difference if its a .308, -06, or .300. 

Which brings up another point...accuracy. Its been proven the .308 is more accurate than the -06 at longer ranges. In the 1950s and 60s the -06 was phased out of competition shooting and replaced with the .308. The -06 just couldn't shoot the smaller groups the .308 could. Now in hunting conditions would that matter...maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure how the .300 Win Mag compares, but I do know this...the .308 is still the standard every other .30 caliber bullet is compared to.

And to whoever said a .308 is comparable to a .243 is mistaken. Lethality of a round is measured 1.) in momentum...which is bullet weight X velocity on target, and 2) bullet size...common sense would say the larger the bullet the bigger wound. But when all else fails, accuracy takes over...you can't kill what you can't hit. Speed is fine, accuracy is final.


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## mickey839 (Jun 10, 2006)

...and one more thing...then I'll shut up for awhile...you had mentioned buying a Savage. I don't care what anybody says, Savage's are good, reliable, accurate guns.

What I wanted to say though, have you looked into the police tactical models? Although they are heavier, you're going to get better accuracy out of the box. The Remmington 700P, what I have, comes with an aluminum bedded H-S Precision stock..its a tack driver and comes in several calibers:

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/700p.htm

Savage also has LE rifles and can be fitted with H-S Precision, Choate, or McMillan stocks:

http://www.savagearms.com/10fp.htm

Good debate though.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

*tboltmike*



tboltmike said:


> If you are willing to pack a few more ounces, an extra two inches of bbl length has the affect of an up grade. I have a 26" bbl .308 and get 2900 fps with a 168 gr handloads. I'd be willing to bet a 26" '06 would near the 300 Winmag velocity with less expensive ammo.


If you'll notice in that ballistic chart, the .308 and the .06 are using a 150 grain bullet. The .300 Win Mag is using a 180 grain bullet. Don't worry about velocity...it's that energy in foot pounds that makes the difference and neither the .308 nor the .30-06 are going to compete with the .300 Win Mag in that catagory.

I don't shoot a .300 Win Mag anymore. I use to when we hunted in New Mexico and Colorado and it's a fine South Texas rifle too...but I can say that if I wanted just one caliber rifle to kill any and all big game in North America, I'd feel very comfortable with a .300 Win Mag in my hands.

TH


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## ZenDaddy (May 22, 2004)

ZenDaddy said:


> However, the best solution is one of each.


I stand corrected - consider buying a 308, a 30.06 and a .300.
Ain't America great!


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## reload (Apr 22, 2006)

I would go with the .30-06. The .308 is inherently more accurate but you need to be more concerned with the penetration, since you are going for large game. Although shot placement is the most important thing, regardless of the caliber, I would want to get all the energy I could when going after elk. 

I shot my first elk with a .30-06 and it went down instantly. (Shot placement is everything) I also watched my buddy blow the heart out of one with a 300 mag and it took off running. Although he did not go far, It just shows how tough those large animals can be. 

After seeing that, I wanted a little more fire power so I decided to get a 300 weatherby. I shot my last two elk with it. The furthest one was 272 yards (range finder). He hit the dirt before taking a step, but there again, shot placement is everything.


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## Charles Helm (Oct 22, 2004)

I know this strays from the topic a bit, but for me sometimes the solution when shooting larger game is an increase in caliber rather than just an increase in velocity.


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## reload (Apr 22, 2006)

An increase in caliber is always an option, but as you go larger in caliber, the heavier bullets also tend to drop quicker. When hunting elk, I prefer a caliber that has a flatter trajectory. Sometimes the distance can be a little deceiving when hunting in mountain terrain and I feel better with a round that shoots a little flatter.


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

reload said:


> An increase in caliber is always an option, but as you go larger in caliber, the heavier bullets also tend to drop quicker. When hunting elk, I prefer a caliber that has a flatter trajectory. Sometimes the distance can be a little deceiving when hunting in mountain terrain and I feel better with a round that shoots a little flatter.


Not true. A heavier bullet shot at the same speed as a lighter bullet will fly flatter than than the lighter bullet. (Throw a ping pong ball and a golf ball at the same speed.....which one is gonna go farther?)

Also, going up in caliber does not me a slower bullet. Go back and look at the charts previously posted. The 300 win mag is traveling faster and flying flatter at all ranges. Not to mention, it has a WHOLE lot more energy on arrival.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Go with the 30-06! It has more powder capacity to take advantage of of the huge assortment of .308 diameter bullets available. The 30-06 is just more versatile because of this.


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## reload (Apr 22, 2006)

It is true a heavier bullet shot at the same speed will travel further than a lighter bullet but that is not what I was saying. I meant going up in caliber beyond the 30 caliber. If you compare a larger caliber (say 338) to a 300, you are not going to shoot the 338 at the same velocity as the 300. The result is the 338 will drop faster than the 300. 

You are comparing 30 calibers against larger 30 calibers.


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

reload said:


> It is true a heavier bullet shot at the same speed will travel further than a lighter bullet but that is not what I was saying. I meant going up in caliber beyond the 30 caliber. If you compare a larger caliber (say 338) to a 300, you are not going to shoot the 338 at the same velocity as the 300. The result is the 338 will drop faster than the 300.
> 
> You are comparing 30 calibers against larger 30 calibers.


OK...I see what you are saying about the calibers. However, as a blanket statement, I still tend to disagree with your premise. It depends to what extreme you want to make the comparison. The .243 doesn't compare to the .300 win mag at any point. Also, are you saying you would choose the .243 with a 100 gr. bullet over a 30-06 with a 150 grain bullet, for 1" or less difference in trajectory at 300 yards?


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## reload (Apr 22, 2006)

What I am saying is Elk are tough and shots can sometimes be long, choose the largest caliber that you can shoot accurately. I would not prefer to shoot an elk with a 243, however some people do. I was making a reference about moving up from a 30 caliber to 338 caliber. The 338 is great at the shorter ranges. If you gonna shoot far, you better aim high because it does not shoot as flat as the 300 weatherby. 

I had elk for dinner last night and boy was it delicious.


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## mickey839 (Jun 10, 2006)

Am I mistaken, isn't a .300 Win Mag a .308 diameter bullet? What you're gaining over the .308 is the larger casing...more powder which in turn gives you higher velocity and more energy. Neither of which is a large enough improvement to have significant effects. All you're trying to do is improve on something that already works.

An opinion I have though is that bullet enery is a little overrated. Although it is _an _important factor...it is not the end all, be all factor in bullet lethality as some people think. The most deciding factor of course is shot placement. Aside from that, there are several factors that determine bullet lethality (effectiveness). Bullet diameter and shape coupled with penetration are the two main factors. Of course penetration also depends on bullet size and shape, but velocity is the key factor of penetration. Because tissue can naturally absorb and disapate energy to some extent, a bullet will be lethal to surrounding tissue only if the energy applied can be transmitted to the tissue faster than the tissue can absorb and disapate the energy. Make sense? Energy is then a measure of raw power, but not necessarily a measurement of _effectiveness. _Although energy (factors are mass and velocity with velocity being the most important) is an important factor, when coupled with other factors (bullet shape, diameter, type, and composition), you get penetration...the real measurement of bullet effectiveness. A change in any of these factors changes the effectiveness of the bullet whether its a .308, .30-06, or .300

By the way, all three of these rounds will accomplish what the author of this thread is looking for. What we're basically debating is the difference between a rib eye and a t-bone.

Once you narrow down the caliber you want, can you post a new thread asking what brand of rifle, scope, and rounds you should get?


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## Syncerus (Oct 18, 2005)

This really is asking how many spirits can dance on the head of a pin. There is no perfect rifle or cartridge, only excellent ones. 

Just buy a .270.


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## Gwill (Sep 6, 2007)

Fellers..

Here are my thoughts...

In todays world, bullets are better than they have ever been in both factory loads and for those who roll their own....The energy arguement is not a good one with this golden age of bullets. Energy does not mean a hole lot regarding killing....

Your philosophy of killing may dictate your caliber/bullet choices. My definition of "philosphy of killing" is the bigger is better camp and the shot placement rules camp. I am in the latter camp.

I love the .308 case; own and shoot the 7-08, .260, and the .243. That said, both rounds will kill elk, but as always shot placement is EVEYTHING and caliber arguements become null when a bullet is put through the guts. 

A .30-06 is a .308 100 yards closer. Don't fret MV, fret impact velocity to govern your ranges. Whether or not you feel the need to use premiums is your call. My top choices for non premiums would be the Horndy Interlock and the Winchester Power Point.

For premiums you really cannot go wrong with the NP, TSX, TBBC, etc. ad nauseum....
There are all kinds of bullets out there that will work fine. I happen to be a Nosler slut...

Get the one that shoots the best in your rifle, whatever it may be, put the bullet in the right spot and stuff will die...

Bullet placement trumps everything...

Good luck!


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## mickey839 (Jun 10, 2006)

JustJoe13 said:


> Yeah but the police and military arent triing to penetrate bear fur n hide at 500yrs. I shot the m-40A1 for years when I was in and it can definatelly reach out and touch someone. But for knockdown, the -06 has the punch it needs and its just as accurate...well depending on the gun, the ammo and the shooter.


Looking at the charts provided, the difference between the .308 and .06's velocities are within 100 ft/sec. (negligible effects) and the energy is around 100 ft-lbs difference. (a 90 mph fastball creates roughly 85 ft.-lbs of energy). So you're trying to say an .06 can penetrate a bear because of the difference of a fastball? A .308 will penetrate anything an .06 will, whether it be elk, bear, or whatever. The .308 gives you the lighter recoil and more inherently accurate round.

Poor .308, being forgotten and disrespected...


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

mickey839 said:


> Am I mistaken, isn't a .300 Win Mag a .308 diameter bullet? What you're gaining over the .308 is the larger casing...more powder which in turn gives you higher velocity and more energy. Neither of which is a large enough improvement to have significant effects. All you're trying to do is improve on something that already works.
> 
> An opinion I have though is that bullet enery is a little overrated. Although it is _an _important factor...it is not the end all, be all factor in bullet lethality as some people think. The most deciding factor of course is shot placement. Aside from that, there are several factors that determine bullet lethality (effectiveness). Bullet diameter and shape coupled with penetration are the two main factors. Of course penetration also depends on bullet size and shape, but velocity is the key factor of penetration. Because tissue can naturally absorb and disapate energy to some extent, a bullet will be lethal to surrounding tissue only if the energy applied can be transmitted to the tissue faster than the tissue can absorb and disapate the energy. Make sense? Energy is then a measure of raw power, but not necessarily a measurement of _effectiveness. _Although energy (factors are mass and velocity with velocity being the most important) is an important factor, when coupled with other factors (bullet shape, diameter, type, and composition), you get penetration...the real measurement of bullet effectiveness. A change in any of these factors changes the effectiveness of the bullet whether its a .308, .30-06, or .300
> 
> ...


Mickey,

I really don't want to get into this debate, because I don't have a horse in the race. I only responded because a blanket statement was made that heavier bulltes drop faster, which is untrue.

Having said that, there are several things in your argument that I don't necessarily agree with. I won't go item by item, but, your are making some pretty broad generalizations/assumptions. And, while I understand the point you are trying to make (whether I agree or disagree), they could be misleading to a novice. However, the one thing I will point disagree with is, "penetration is not the real measure of effectiveness." Yes, penetration is paramount. But, penetration without tissue destruction, is useless. Otherwise, we would all be shooting solids.

In the end, all I'm saying is, if I am going to be shooting larger game at medium to long ranges (which was the gentleman's question), I personally would choose the 300 win mag. While the differences may be negligible in some's opinion, if I can get a 180 grain bullet down range flatter and faster with the 300 than I can a 150 grain bullet with a 30-06/308, then that's what I'm gonna choose.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> Neither of which is a large enough improvement to have significant effects.


Mickey...the difference between the cartridges or a .300 Win Mag and a .308 Winchester is huge and very significant. Read the chart again, and don't change bullets...just what the chart says. You can't argue the math...it is what it is.

TH


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## Leemo (Nov 16, 2006)

Ya'll have got me confused, the 308 I'm thinking about looks like a 30-30 shell, if thats the case, I just looked a ball. chart, Mickey you said you shoot 700 yrds. with that cartridge, well in my opinion if your shooting that far with that shell your killing a lot of ants...


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## 220swifter (Apr 5, 2005)

I do not own a 300 Mag, and I am definitely not a fan for Texas sized deer, but based on the uses you described, it is probably your best choice. I still say that between the choices you listed, the 30-06 is the best choice.


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## mickey839 (Jun 10, 2006)

Palerider - 



The point I was trying to make&#8230;and maybe I didn't make it clear enough, or maybe I mis-worded it&#8230;and by no means am I trying to be argumentative&#8230;penetration is not the only factor in a good round, but one of the most important, and certainly more important than just energy. But the two go hand in hand&#8230;it just takes energy one step further. Shot placement, coupled with penetration, type of bullet, and diameter of bullet makes calibers more effective than others. Therefore, a .30 caliber bullet will be more effective than a .243 on larger game due to 1.) more penetration (obtained through energy, [which is a linear equation of velocity x mass] and type of bullet), and 2.) the larger bullet diameter causing more damage. The goal is to have the appropriate mix for the game you're hunting. A .30-06, .308, and .300 are all appropriate for what he wants to hunts. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say. 



Which leads me to TH's response&#8230;I'm not saying the .300 is not faster or does it not have more energy&#8230;you're right, it says it right there. What I am saying though, is that shooting an elk at 200 or 300 yards in the vitals is going to have the same results whether you're using a 30.-06, .308. or .300. The reason I'm comparing different bullets is because there are different grains and manufactures of .308. Hornady makes a 150 grn .308 called the Light Magnum that has a muzzle velocity of 3000 ft/sec and 2997 ft-lbs of energy, and a 165 grain with velocity of 2880 and energy of 3038. Yes, it is less than the .300, but the end results are still going to be the same. For the author of the post any of the three guns will be appropriate, I'm just partial to a .308. There is nothing wrong with a .300, it's a very good round, but looking strictly at energy can be deceiving, especially when all three are comparable. Within 300 to 400 yards (which is probably the longest anybody would probably take a shot under hunting conditions) you will see little if _any _difference in the performance any of these rounds on game.


Leemo-

No, the .308 is not a round nosed shell like a .30-.30. I shoot a 168 grn. A-MAX bullet. I shoot about 60 - 80 rounds through it twice a month. It shoots very well at 700 yards and I've shot it out to 1000 before.


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

Alright Mickey... I get your point. Nor was I trying to be argumentitive. 

I pretty much agree with everything in your last post.


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## mickey839 (Jun 10, 2006)

Glad for that, sometimes I get thinking faster than I type and things come out different that what I intended. But I love ole Screamin Mimi (my .308)!


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## Charles Helm (Oct 22, 2004)

We could complicate things with a discussion of the effects of drag and fluid dynamics on penetration, taking into account the differing diameters, velocities, and expansion of various projectiles, but I suppose the bottom line is pick whichever one you want because they can all do the job.



I still think you need at least two new rifles...


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## mickey839 (Jun 10, 2006)

well said mr. helm

Or like somebody else suggested, buy one of each, that way you know you can't go wrong!


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

Charles Helm said:


> We could complicate things with a discussion of the effects of drag and fluid dynamics on penetration, taking into account the differing diameters, velocities, and expansion of various projectiles, but I suppose the bottom line is pick whichever one you want because they can all do the job.
> 
> I still think you need at least two new rifles...


Actually, the bottom line is, I can't type fast enough to get into those kind of discussions. :rotfl:

Unless somebody just wants to.


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## Charles Helm (Oct 22, 2004)

TXPalerider said:


> Actually, the bottom line is, I can't type fast enough to get into those kind of discussions. :rotfl:
> 
> Unless somebody just wants to.


I have seen many ugly internet brawls regarding the biomechanics of wounding and killing big game, the effects of bullet shape (and associated supecavitation bubbles) on penetration, the effect of velocity on penetration (and the bare-knuckle brawls associated with the published reports of Messrs. Linebaugh and Garrett), the importance of temporary versus permanent wound cavities, the dynamics of terminating the function of the central nervous system, and pretty much anything else you can imagine.

At the end of the day very few change their minds despite massive use of bandwidth.

We all tend to base our decisions on our own experiences and weight those disproportionately because they happened to us.

I like the '06 for deer-sized game because it works very well with fairly soft bullets and normal velocities. On larger game, I like bigger holes in case I have to trail, and it is easier for me to get bigger holes with larger-diameter bullets. I have seen quite the brawl over that (7mm versus 30 cal) due to the use of expanding bullets, but having made up _my_ mind I am satisfied. :tongue:

Hijack over. Syncerus had a great suggestion. Go hold the rifles and see which feels best. The bolt throw on the .308 will be a little shorter, and maybe it holds more down in the magazine. Maybe intangibles will win the day.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I agree Mickey...the end results are going to be the same, lol. 

TH


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Dang sure a lots of opinions on this one and most of them are rite on target. Really not an ounce of difference between the 08 and 06. Thought it was funny someone mentioned police using 308. The real reason is the availability of match ammo or cheap ammo still around. Accuracy is the same on both calibers. Deer or what have you will have no idea what killed them.

Charlie


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## Archer (Jul 10, 2006)

Wow I really didn't expect to open a can of worms this big. I do appreciate the eye opening info on the 30-06. I am sure I will eventually get one of each, but for now I am going to go with the -06.

Gwill Had an excellent point though which I learned well with my current deer rifle, an H&R in 25-06. the first thing I did when I bought it was go to academy and get a box of every thing they had in 25-06 and see what it liked best. I got decent groups at 100 and 200 yards with everything but settled on the Federal Vital Shock round because for this rifle it consistently out-prefomed everything else in accuracy and reliability. when I changed to Winchester silver tips they shot higher at 100yds and much (4-5") lower at 200 in defiance of the ballistic information on that round. The federal round matched that drop at 300yds, made the choice quite easy.

I will be ordering the Savage in 30-06, L handed bolt tomorrow and will spend a day or 3 on the range doing the same with it. Next year maybe the .300 or .308!


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

Syncerus said:


> This really is asking how many spirits can dance on the head of a pin. There is no perfect rifle or cartridge, only excellent ones.
> 
> Just buy a .270.


That would be my last choice....Far from excellant.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Oh Redfishr, you know the .270 Winchester is an excellent round for Texas...we can argue it, but start a new thread. 

TH


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## mickey839 (Jun 10, 2006)

What!!! What!!!! Now we're bagging on the .270...Harumph!!!! :hairout: ...nah...just joking! :biggrin: 

Seriously though Archer

You're making a good choice and it sounds like you've got a good plan already in the works!

Good Luck and have fun shooting!


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## ZenDaddy (May 22, 2004)

*Can o' worms*



Archer said:


> *Wow I really didn't expect to open a can of worms this big. I do appreciate the eye opening info on the 30-06. I am sure I will eventually get one of each, but for now I am going to go with the -06.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Nah, you didn't open a can or worms with this thread. Fact of the matter many of us live for this kind of thread. Gives us a chance to voice our opinions.
> 
> ...


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## Hard Head (May 21, 2004)

Amen! Love my .300 SAUM



Trouthunter said:


> If you'll notice in that ballistic chart, the .308 and the .06 are using a 150 grain bullet. The .300 Win Mag is using a 180 grain bullet. Don't worry about velocity...it's that energy in foot pounds that makes the difference and neither the .308 nor the .30-06 are going to compete with the .300 Win Mag in that catagory.
> 
> I don't shoot a .300 Win Mag anymore. I use to when we hunted in New Mexico and Colorado and it's a fine South Texas rifle too...but I can say that if I wanted just one caliber rifle to kill any and all big game in North America, I'd feel very comfortable with a .300 Win Mag in my hands.
> 
> TH


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## Syncerus (Oct 18, 2005)

Actually, it's hunting for a high-fenced cape buffalo with a .45/70 ...

Lol.


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## JWHITE (Oct 17, 2006)

If it's fast and flat you want; and if you feel the need to burn a lot of powder each time you pull the trigger........ I suggest a .257 Weatherby Mag. I have one and I guarantee you that it will kill an Elk. It's faster and flatter than a .300 win mag. Ammo is expensive though.


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## 85LoneStar (Feb 26, 2006)

Archer,

Thanks for posting this up.
I'm trying to make the same decision.

I'll be going to the range this weekend to shoot an -06 to make sure the recoil is OK but my mind is pretty much made up.
I'm looking at a Savage 111FCNS in 30-06.

BTW: By my count the voting in this thread went as follows:
.300 - 7
.308 - 6
30-06 - 23


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

i shoot a leftie 700 bdl old style Remmington in 30-06.

handload 130 gr hornadys for TX.,,a great weapon but i rarely use it.

the last 20 or so deer i have killed have been with my 220 swift or 22-250, if you need anything bigger than those for a Tx deer, you are a lousy shot.


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## capt.dave (Jan 3, 2007)

Is there a reason nobody seems to mention the 7mm mag? A little less pop than the 300, and better range than the -06. It's a good all around caliber in my book.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

capt.dave said:


> Is there a reason nobody seems to mention the 7mm mag? A little less pop than the 300, and better range than the -06. It's a good all around caliber in my book.


One of my favortie rounds.....


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Im with coastaloutfitters. Once you learn to shoot you can lay down all those cannons. I started with an 06 but now hunt with a 223 and Barnes bullets. But whatever floats your boat..

Charlie


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

.308 hands down if I had to pick. For years the .308 was my trusted go to rifle, but now it's the .270. However the last couple of years I've hunted with a 300WSM and have to say it is way too much gun for Texas Deer. So if I do any rifle hunting this year it will be back to my good ole .270.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Wow what a great thread. I just found this one, and read every post.

My opinion, for whatever it is worth. You can turn a 30 year mortgage into a 15 year mortgage any time you want to, but you cannot turn a 15 year mortgage into a 30 year mortgage anytime you want to (without incurring some expenses).

A 30-06 can be a 308 any time it wants to. A 308 cannot ever be a 30-06. 

Do you want a caliber that will cover everything from a 25-06 to a 300 win mag?? It's the 30-06. 

A 30-06 with 125-130 grain bullets can be a 25-06 if it wants to, a 7mm-08 if it wants to, or a 270 if it wants to. Loaded with 150 gr whatevers, it can be a 308 if it wants to, or a 300 savage if it wants to, or 30-40 krag if it wants to, or a 30-06 if it wants to. Loaded with 180 gr xlc at 3093 fps, it can be a 300 win mag if it wants to.

30-06 always has been, always will be the most versatile caliber out there.

THE "LOVE MY GRAND DAD'S PRE-64 MOD 70 30-06" JAMMER


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

If you can afford to hunt all those different types of animals, then, you an afford two or three rifles so you don't have to worry about a do all rifle.

Maybe a .270, .257 Mag for deer, and a .300 or .338 mag for the heavier game.

If your set on one rifle, the 30-06 is slightly better in velocity than a .308, but there is not much difference between the two. If you handload, you can widen the gap.


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## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

Charles Helm said:


> I know this strays from the topic a bit, but for me sometimes the solution when shooting larger game is an increase in caliber rather than just an increase in velocity.


He is the only one that has made sense in this thread and understands terminal balistics.
a .308 diameter bullet is just that, I dont care how fast you push it, and actually the faster you push it the less penetration you will have, the only thing a 300 has on .308 is distance, it has the ability to have adequate expansion and penetration at longer distances, and at 50 yds the little .308 will actually have more penetration. Its no secret the faster you push a bullet the more it tends to blow up, well manufactures now make them harder and harder for these magnum crazed hunters, but whats the point you now have a bullet that will hold together out of a magnum at 50 yds putting you right back to where we were with a good cup and core bullet out of a .308.

Kinetic energy has no bearing on how well a gun kills, never has never will.
Shoot a deer in the hind and all that kinetic energy will not kill him, put a hole in his vitals and it will do it everytime, a 7mm magnum is not an elk cartridge, will it kill them ? you bet, but its still a .284 diameter bullet, its a long range deer gun, a 30-06 with its slower velocities will out penetrate a 7 mag by more than double. a 7 mag with at least 175 gr will work on elk but Id prefer a bigger bullet like .30 -.35 diameter and betwen 180-220 gr.
A 7 mag with all that speed and "energy" cant compare to the slow 45-70
The 45-70 will penetrate a moose from end to end.
Please dont buy into bullistics, KE means nothing, a 22-250 has more KE than a 45-70 but isnt a moose gun , speed is very important, too much can be bad a close range, to little can be bad at long range, pick your gun on the distance you will be shooting, pick the caliber on the size game you will be shooting the biiger the bore the bigger the game, and pay no attntion to KE or TKO formulas or any of those crappy theories.


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## SpeckReds (Sep 10, 2005)

30.06 or 308. I ihave 3 30.06's. but I like my 7 mag the best by far.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

zrexpilot said:


> He is the only one that has made sense in this thread and understands terminal balistics.
> a .308 diameter bullet is just that, I dont care how fast you push it, and actually the faster you push it the less penetration you will have, the only thing a 300 has on .308 is distance, it has the ability to have adequate expansion and penetration at longer distances, and at 50 yds the little .308 will actually have more penetration. Its no secret the faster you push a bullet the more it tends to blow up, well manufactures now make them harder and harder for these magnum crazed hunters, but whats the point you now have a bullet that will hold together out of a magnum at 50 yds putting you right back to where we were with a good cup and core bullet out of a .308.
> 
> Kinetic energy has no bearing on how well a gun kills, never has never will.
> ...


you better tell the thousands of dead elk that were shot with a 165gr. 7 mag that it was a 45-70. Is there shot dead and more dead? if you can shoot straight and follow windage and elevation rules you don't have to worry about these things...........


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## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

CoastalOutfitters said:


> you better tell the thousands of dead elk that were shot with a 165gr. 7 mag that it was a 45-70. Is there shot dead and more dead? if you can shoot straight and follow windage and elevation rules you don't have to worry about these things...........


I knew that would rustle few feathers.
It just amazes me that some say a .243 is marginal for a 200 lb deer but yet a 270 or 7 mag is a 1000lb elk cartridge.
These 3 calibers are in the same class, a deer cartridge. Yet all 3 are legal for elk.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Man, someone contact Remington, Winchester and Weatherby and tell them that their ballistic charts are "*crappy theories*".



> pay no attntion to KE or TKO formulas or any of those crappy theories.


I really don't know what to say to that, lol.

That velocity and that energy is very important. For instance, a .45-70 with a 405 grain bullet is moving 1055 feet per second at 200 yards and has 1001 foot pounds of energy but drops 24 inches. Keep pushing your shots out past 200 yards and it gets worse for the venerable .45-70.

A .300 Weatherby Magnum with a 180 grain bullet is moving around 2600 feet per second at 200 yards and has 2755 foot pounds of energy and doesn't drop at all.

I'd want that flatter shooting .300 Weatherby.

Of course if you hit any animal in the right spot with either caliber it's going to die; caliber is second only to accurate shooting.

Some folks, like Elmer Keith for instance believed that the best way to kill animals was by placing a very large hole through its body with a really big bullet. "Seeing daylight through the hole" is one way that Elmer put it.

Others believe that the best way to kill an animal is by placing a fast moving smaller bullet through an animal, turning its internal organs into a gelatinous mixture of blood and gore.

I prefer the latter unless we're talking large African game.

TH


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## JavelinaRuss (Jul 24, 2007)

If a .30-06 with a 180gr. Fail safe can kill one of these at 200yds.............









Or his bigger, meaner brother head on at 175yds with a 180gr. Accubond.......









I think you'd be good to go zeroed in at 200 yds. :dance::bounce::birthday2


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## SHARKTEETH (Aug 7, 2005)

30.06 work's for me


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## vvflash04 (Oct 2, 2007)

Well , I have hunted with both and either will do what you want . But as stated before , if you are ever in need just about any hardware , Super S or general store will have a box of 06 . The choices you get with the 06 are many , Hornady makes a light magnum for both "check out the ballistics".


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

After watching Future Weapons last nite I have found my new rifle! A 416 Barrett is what I need. The cold bore shot that hit the target at 2500 yards was awesome! I NEED this gun!


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

I need this gun. LOL

There are three types of guns: shoot, have, and need.

Some guns own because you want to "shoot them." Some guns you own because you just have to "have" one. Then there are the guns that you just freakin' "need."

THE "HAVE ALL 3 CATEGORIES" JAMMER



Lezz Go said:


> After watching Future Weapons last nite I have found my new rifle! A 416 Barrett is what I need. The cold bore shot that hit the target at 2500 yards was awesome! I NEED this gun!


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

zrexpilot said:


> I knew that would rustle few feathers.
> It just amazes me that some say a .243 is marginal for a 200 lb deer but yet a 270 or 7 mag is a 1000lb elk cartridge.
> These 3 calibers are in the same class, a deer cartridge. Yet all 3 are legal for elk.


Would i shoot an elk with a .243 ? could i ?, easily, but why? there are other calibers better suited.
a .243 is not marginal for deer and a 7 mag is not marginal for elk, unless you can't shoot straight, then what does it really matter?

first off, most people are shooting off a stable stand rest, with a deer's head in a feed bucket, inside of 100 yards,broadside, at a 125 lb deer.
So, if you need anything larger than a 243 for that shot, i'm truly sorry, esp. if you still miss.
This is not directed at the "i paid $5-10K for a 300 yd shot at a buck of a lifetime crowd",..... money is money............

secondly, it is very easy to kill an elk with a 7 mag, ask any Colo. outfitter if it is a popular cal. and prob. another thousand were killed with a 270.
Taking a shot out to even 300 yds. at an unspooked elk is done all the time, with one shot.

Now, in either case, if you want something to gut shoot and drop, or shoot thru the hams, pick your cannon, all calibers have their poor bullet expansion, lost game stories though.

I see and hear it every year, "he was running up the hill, i shot 5 times and just ran out of ammo, last shot must have been 500yds, i might have hit him, lets go look "......................what ?????

there is one simple reason the 30-06 and 308 have been so popular, they were very respected military rounds, nothing more. A truckload of old rifles were converted to sporters in both those calibers, ammo was, and is, dirt cheap, every store stocks those cals. Military camp pendleton and camp perry matchers were consistently won with the 308, but with a 168gr boattail hollow point match bullet and handload, not a hunting load.

You want to split hairs over downrange energy,bullet makeup, Meplat area, 400yd plus bullet drop, go for it. This is made to sell books, firearms and ammo to hunters, not drop animals.


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