# IFA DQ"D Our Fish Not Happy!



## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

My partner and I worked hard to find fish yesterday and in the last few minutes, we found what we thought to be winners. We had 15+ lbs on our boga (very acurate). This weight would had made us 1st or second based on our measurements.

Unfortunately we were mistaken. There is a new sheriff in town and his name is Randy Mcbride. He is the new tournament director. We had a 25.5" fish dq'd because in Randy's words "he didn't have a perfect tail" therefore, the fish was disqualified. No appeal just dq'd. 

My partner and i are holding what we thought might be a winning stringer. I am wearing orange and josh is in blue. Josh is holding the 8# fish we weighed in, I am holding the dq'd fish.

Could someone please help me find the written rule that dq's this fish.

Sorry about the sideways photo's can't figure out how to fix it.


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## BustinTops (Aug 31, 2010)

Wow....I can see if it was a 27" 3/4 and had a piece missing. But at that length it shouldn't of mattered.......Just my opinion ovcourse.


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## gordoleo (Sep 30, 2005)

I think you got robbed.


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## hch3 (Jul 15, 2010)

My friend also had a 26" red dq 
I fish tournys and why would any one mess with a tial on a 26" red
Time to stop fishing IFA bc of this kind of bs
To much money to prefish ect to be dq on this when fish in question not 27 7/8"
Tails get damaged for a number of reasons in nature


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## capt.dru (Oct 24, 2009)

Sounds like "politics" may have been involved.


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## BustinTops (Aug 31, 2010)

gordoleo said:


> I think you got robbed.


X100


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## LaddH (Sep 29, 2011)

All fishing rules should refer to the IGFA rules which are recognized around the world. The IGFA rule regarding mutilation is this.

2. Mutilation to the fish, prior to landing or boating the catch, caused by sharks, other fish, mammals, or propellers that remove or penetrate the flesh. (Injuries caused by leader or line, scratches, *old healed scars or regeneration deformities are not considered to be disqualifying injuries.)* Any mutilation on the fish must be shown in a photograph and fully explained in a separate report accompanying the record application.

I think all tourneys should have a line in the rules that says . Mutilation as defined by the IGFA will disqualify the fish. 
That fish getting disqualified was an injustice IMO. Did he have a buddy that was in second place?


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

"Any fish that appears to have been penned, mangled, mashed, mauled or otherwise altered will not be weighed at the discretion of the weigh master."

This is the rule i'm assuming dq'd us. Mr. Mcbride interpreted that as must be a perfect tail. He said he dq'd someone else also. I guess that should make it ok.

Based on mr mcbides statement, every fish in the tournament should have been dq'd. Nothing in nature is identical or perfect. They all have splits and notches to some degree.

I understand the mutilation rule, i am all for it to protect the field. I also understand that a deformity might give someone an unfair advantage.


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## LBS (Sep 2, 2004)

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in regard to tourneys.


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## CaptDocHoliday (Feb 3, 2011)

*Jipped*

You got screwed. Terrible call on behalf of the tournament crew


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## manwitaplan (Dec 9, 2005)

In.........,,,,,


Man I feel bad for you guys. 

Btw nice catch. 

Manwitaplan


Manwitaplan


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## A6TEXAN (Apr 2, 2010)

The new sherriff should be removed from his position


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## redman35 (Jul 1, 2008)

Railbird i would not fish there tournaments anymore. If they start to lose people they will figure out why.


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## netboy (Dec 12, 2006)

That's ridiculous!


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## BlueHeron (Dec 20, 2011)

That is quite absurd. Does this man even fish? I see plenty of reds especially posted on this site with small splits in the tail. Sorry to hear of this.


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## RedXCross (Aug 7, 2005)

Chuck,

You got Royally SCREWED, and you wonder why people have left and moved on.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Nov 4, 2011)

That is effed. I think theres something else going on. Id have to see that rule on paper or in a rulebook that someone didnt just type up. No one is entitled to make up rules like that. That tail looks like a friggin tail to me! What about big sow trout? They have splits in their tail like that too?!?


-mac-


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

Nothing wrong with that fish, you got robbed.

Can you file a written complaint or is it a done deal?

Sent from my mobile T&A viewer


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## Ex Boat Capt. Carp (Jul 19, 2011)

I have never heard of that one before!! You were messed with something awful, did the guy not want you to win so one of his friends could win!??: I think I would call a meeting and protest this guy right out of there!!


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## El Capitan de No Fish (Sep 20, 2007)

That's some BS! That dude has some bad karma coming his way.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

It's probably over. I plan to respond to this ruling in writing.


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

railbird said:


> It's probably over. I plan to respond to this ruling in writing.


I would, its BS from the looks of your pics.

Who ended up winning, any pics of their tails or fish, any relation to the director?

Sent from my mobile T&A viewer


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## Texxan1 (Dec 31, 2004)

I have to agree

You got screwed on this one chuck!!!!!!


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## TheGoose (Jan 22, 2006)

I predict this thread will be many pages long by Monday evening.


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## trashcanslam (Mar 7, 2006)

Sure would like to hear the other side. Sounds like the director was playing favorites and you got screwed.


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## Law Dog (Jul 27, 2010)

Sounds like "politics" may have been involved. I agree terrible call on behalf of the tournament. That's Sh**y


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## dparkerh (Jun 24, 2011)

Can you protest? I predict if this new judge keeps making calls like this he is gonna get a parking lot ***** whoopin' one of these days.


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## TB4-2 (Jun 22, 2006)

Feel your pain. We had a 26" fished DQ'ed for a similar nick on Saturday. The top tip of the tail was missing, about 1/16", one side only. It was an old injury, fully healed (we didn't notice it in the boat). Mr. McBride didn't hesitate. I couldn't figure out what was up, especially on a short fish. Not the best way to end a few days on the water. 

We would have only had about 12 lbs, but still, on a 26" fish.

Might have to stick with TRS....


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## [email protected] (Jun 25, 2005)

Sue the tournament. They cost you good money and there may not even be a fair protest procedure if that idiot is in charge. What a complete and utter fool. If he knew anything about redfish, he could see that even though the tail was weir looking it wasn't messed with since the tail is frayed on the end of the entire tail. Even if you don't wish to sue, at least have a lawyer right a certified letter threatening a lawsuit.


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## Big Fish (Feb 4, 2005)

That is absolutely absurd !


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## speckcaster (May 5, 2012)

*ditto .... sue the tourney*



[email protected] said:


> Sue the tournament. They cost you good money and there may not even be a fair protest procedure if that idiot is in charge. What a complete and utter fool. If he knew anything about redfish, he could see that even though the tail was weir looking it wasn't messed with since the tail is frayed on the end of the entire tail. Even if you don't wish to sue, at least have a lawyer right a certified letter threatening a lawsuit.


at the very least get all of your entry fee cash back and your incurred expenses (gas, lodging, travel, etc. etc) .... i'm not one for BS law suits .... but this is FISHING and that bast##@*d should be railroaded....

I've fished hundreds of tournaments and there was absolutely nothing in your photos that justified a DQ.......i would slam his a**s and the folks that hired him as weigh in master/director!

YOU GOT SCREWED ....

sorry buddy.....


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## fwoodwader (Jul 18, 2008)

This is what happens when you give one man all the power....sorry you guys got jobbed. 

It probably would have come to fisticuffs it had been me.


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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

fwoodwader said:


> This is what happens when you give one man all the power....sorry you guys got jobbed.
> 
> It probably would have come to fisticuffs it had been me.


No comment. I know I'd be pist. Real pist. You got hosed Railbird.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Just got back from rockport had another discussion with mr mcbride. Got nowhere of course. I'm wondering of anyone took pictures of their fish they weighed in yesterday. I would like to see if his statement is correct about not allowing any fish without a perfect ta to be weighed in. Can't wait til they post pictures from yesterday.


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## speckcaster (May 5, 2012)

*perfect tail my [email protected]*ss!*

there is no such thing as a perfect tail ... there are always minor splits, raw edges, etc, etc on reds of any weight in size..

and it shouldn't be this apparent idiot's sole descretion to mis-interpret a obvious poorly enforceable standard ...those requirement for DQ are supposed to eliminate fish with "altered" tails that could effect overall length..simple as that.

anybody out there know this guy? i'd warn him a storm of ****** fisherman think he should give up tournament duties...

DON"T GIVE UP ...... keep calling him out & the tourney


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

*they make this so easy*

this is what i found in the 1st 10 fish photos i looked at. These were (legal fish). I don't see one perfect tail and 1 is missing the entire bottom half.

If i am not mistaken, the winning team is the bottom picture. Someone tell me the fish on the left has a perfect tail!


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## speckcaster (May 5, 2012)

*wow.....look @ those perfect tails!*

sorry Railbird.......what kind of prize did you guys get screwed out of?

copy all those photos and get a lawyer @ the very least get all of your costs reimbursed to you & of coarse all your mental suffering and traumatic effects this has had on you and your buddy.....

what a crock of sh#@t ..... this is a guy who should be publically flailed on the net....roast him!

*are your DQ'd results still logged....(important!!!) get a copy of them!*

make sure you and/or your lawyer submit this stuff directly to the IFA

fish on & needless to say i'm sure you'll never hit their tournament trail again


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## Smackdaddy53 (Nov 4, 2011)

That first one is all jacked up, whats worse about yours? Its not the mcbride were thinking of is it? 


-mac-


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## fishin shallow (Jul 31, 2005)

Dang I would be really upset as well. Rail bird I'm sorry to say but this guy is accusing you of cheating but doing it in a nice way. Think about it, why would he DQ a fish well below the legal limit. Something along the lines of keeping a fish in a crab trap or on a stringer overnight and crabs or pinfish took a piece of the tail off. A thread was closed on here a couple of weeks ago discussing the same thing from a weigh master down south. So sounds like this mentality is spreading.


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## arthurr5150 (Apr 20, 2012)

I am sorry to hear about this. Like the Pacman vs Bradley fight yesterday... sometimes politics screws the rightful winner.


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## JimD (May 25, 2004)

Railbird - 

He must be a friend of some of those poor people that your crusade ruined their no motor zone (and probably cost them a lot of money too). We still need to keep an eye on them because I know that they did not give up.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

here is another example of a perfect tail


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## speckcaster (May 5, 2012)

*nice tail on the right!*

obviously hand raised in his bathtub where his little tail never touched shell or sand!


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## boltmaster (Aug 16, 2011)

What a bad deal! 
You got "railroaded" and it looks like a fix was in. Even if not it will always 
Look rigged to knock you out.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*What were the "rules" you agreed to?*

If there was mention of TX directors rulings were final and you SIGNED the document you don't have a leg to stand on - unfortunately for you there are cheaters in EVERY TX - thats why I quit fishing them if they don't make top prize winners agree to polygraph -

It sux , but you ARE being accused in a round about way of dishonesty,

Some folks like to screw with fishes tails with scissors to get a legal length - game wardens also make those determinations DAILY where slot limits are present

I directed many tournies - DQed more than a few , set a couple to JAIL, when you sign up be sure you can abide by the judges decision, its a whole lot line umpiring a sporting event --


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## capt. david (Dec 29, 2004)

rail quess maybe you don't fit the golden boy image of a tournament angler. did you have a nascar shirt on while fishing? you got shafted! enough said. "first one is all jacked up" imo just gross!!!!


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## Texas Javelina (Dec 23, 2009)

I fished my first and last IFA tourney several years ago in Port Lavaca. I fish redfish tourneys to compete against the best and have become a much better fisherman because of it. I also enjoyed how hospitable and at the same time professional the other Texas tournaments were run. I was very dissapointed with the IFA and how they treated the contestants during the captains meeting and pre-launch continuesly scolding people to "shut up and be quiet" or "whats the matter with you guys-can't you get in the correct order." I just felt they wanted to get in and out of town as quickly as possible. The tournament director must have been the unhappiest person around and always had a constipated look on his face. It just wasn't the place I wanted to spend my saturdays.

Good luck Railbird. There was nothing wrong with the fish. The DQ was due to politics or incompetence...you make the decision. There are lots of other very well run Texas tournaments to compete....


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## Team Burns (May 6, 2008)

Politics & competition...hmmmm????:wink:


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## The Hook Remover Guy (Mar 9, 2011)

Don't sound right to me.


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## Capt. Juarez (Jun 20, 2008)

A few years back I fished an IFA in Laffite we had an 8+ and on pushing 8. The guy measuring the fish slid the first one up and it was 26.5ish and slid the second one up and it was over by a couple of hairs. Now i can undrestand if the fish was over by an 1/8 or an inch but he just DQed it and said it over yall are out.. Well by this time im on fire I ask the guy how much pressure are you putting on the fish against the board and he wouldnt answer me or give me an explaination. While sitting in line I watch this guy BS with a few teams in front of us as if he knew them. He worked their fish to make them measure. So i confront him in line and asked him why didnt he give our fish the same chance as the others and he still didnt even acknowledge me. Needless to say I have never fished another or will ever fish another IFA event. Just off our boga we would have had 2nd locked and possible 1st.


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## worstSPECKanglerTX (May 30, 2012)

Capt. Juarez said:


> A few years back I fished an IFA in Laffite we had an 8+ and on pushing 8. The guy measuring the fish slid the first one up and it was 26.5ish and slid the second one up and it was over by a couple of hairs. Now i can undrestand if the fish was over by an 1/8 or an inch but he just DQed it and said it over yall are out.. Well by this time im on fire I ask the guy how much pressure are you putting on the fish against the board and he wouldnt answer me or give me an explaination. While sitting in line I watch this guy BS with a few teams in front of us as if he knew them. He worked their fish to make them measure. So i confront him in line and asked him why didnt he give our fish the same chance as the others and he still didnt even acknowledge me. Needless to say I have never fished another or will ever fish another IFA event. Just off our boga we would have had 2nd locked and possible 1st.


That sums it up. Fishing IFA is all politics. IMO it's just not smart to fish that tournament unless you know people and posts like this will make sure that the people who are running it will have a nice steady decline as more and more figure out that people running it will slide their decisions toward the people they know that enter over some random stranger. Sad but true. Polygraph could be mandatory all you want but they are not always accurate, but are still better than nothing. Best bet would be to enter tournaments where you know the directors are upstanding and legit instead of jack with people like this.


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## [email protected] (Jun 25, 2005)

Not fishing anothe IFA tournament will do nothing unless you get all the teams to not fish them along with you but that won't happen. I am fired up over this, it's downright WRONG and I would like to have a word with that POS. Please sue that man asap. In fact give me his number and I will call him and give him a piece of my mind. If I had enough weight to be in the money of a large tournament and got treated like Railbird, I probably couldn't control myself at all and I probably would have thrown a punch. Any lawyers on 2cool want to help this cause? Railbird is a stand up guy who works hard in tournaments and it's sad to see his biggest finish end in cheating. He is more man than me for not starting a real mess there yesterday.


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## worstSPECKanglerTX (May 30, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> *Not fishing anothe IFA tournament will do nothing* unless you get all the teams to not fish them along with you but that won't happen. I am fired up over this, it's downright WRONG and I would like to have a word with that POS. Please sue that man asap. In fact give me his number and I will call him and give him a piece of my mind. If I had enough weight to be in the money of a large tournament and got treated like Railbird, I probably couldn't control myself at all and I probably would have thrown a punch. Any lawyers on 2cool want to help this cause? Railbird is a stand up guy who works hard in tournaments and it's sad to see his biggest finish end in cheating. He is more man than me for not starting a real mess there yesterday.


You'd be real surprised how fast word of mouth travels, even faster on the internet. Nowadays you can't even post up a report with anything in the background because you will have 5 people viewing the thread that are signed up and 1,000,000 guests reading it to potlick your spots without ever giving a care in the world who you are or how much hard work it has taken you to find it.

Trust me, if more and more people start becoming educated about IFA screwing people out of their time and money that tournament will fall to pieces and/or be run and fished by people who know each other and they can have at it. Everyone on this forum should be warned and if I were railbird I would be bumping this thread to my hearts content.

A ton of people read these boards and almost everyone I fish with or have met through fishing is familiar with 2cool. IFA is run by people who will go to every length of the earth to make sure that the people they know have the best chance of winning and I know that from first hand experience.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Nov 4, 2011)

Its sad when guys cant win the old fashioned way. Those pics say it all.


-mac-


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## dparkerh (Jun 24, 2011)

How did this guy have time to judge this tournament *AND* serve as one of the judges in the Pacquiao vs Bradley fight??


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## WVNative (Sep 16, 2010)

You got robbed Chuck. What that guy did is a felony, he stole that money from you so one of his cronies could pocket it. I sure hope for a major fallout against the IFA. Mr. McBride, karma is a ***** and you certainly have some bad coming your way.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Not sure about some of these statements. I think he felt he needed to make an example of someone. I guess it was just our bad luck. I doubt any of this will change my life. Money doesn't mean that much to me. Oh well.


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## gp2394 (Jul 1, 2008)

This may be dumb but why don't the tournaments hire off duty game wardens. They could do it as an extra job. Their opinion on the legality of a fish would seem to be the most fair and balanced.


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## J.T. Barely (Jan 28, 2012)

*What a Dirtbag*



railbird said:


> Not sure about some of these statements. I think he felt he needed to make an example of someone. I guess it was just our bad luck. I doubt any of this will change my life. Money doesn't mean that much to me. Oh well.


Yea but, Railbird if everything your saying is true(and I'm sure it is). That is absolutely the most flagrant, underhanded, no good SOB move I have ever heard of. Thankyou sir for saving me and my buddies a lot of grief, we had thought about fishing them, but not now.


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## BlueHeron (Dec 20, 2011)

Well, the integrity of that tourney sounds pretty shot. I bet these guys walk around pretty bitter towards others and still cannot figure out why. Without integrity in this world you are just a piece of dog **** sitting on a pier. I remember watching the IFA on a fishing channel. It looked very unprofessional and the contestants did not look like a happy bunch. Nobody really looked happy. So whats the point of even messing with it. You come across as a pretty humble guy railbird. Not an easy thing to maintain these days but, necessary.

Mac, so you think this guy judged a championship boxing fight? I feel many sports are pretty rigged these days. That just disgusts me and honestly not a shocker. What a big ole scandal that would be.


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## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

railbird said:


> Not sure about some of these statements. I think he felt he needed to make an example of someone. I guess it was just our bad luck. I doubt any of this will change my life. *Money doesn't mean that much to me. *Oh well.


Pardon me for butting in, but looked on their site and it looks like first prize was $30,000.00.. Is this correct ?? If so, and I was in your shoes I'd be doing a little more questioning myself...

.02


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Tortuga said:


> Pardon me for butting in, but looked on their site and it looks like first prize was $30,000.00.. Is this correct ?? If so, and I was in your shoes I'd be doing a little more questioning myself...
> 
> .02[/QUOTE
> 
> This is not over. I am in communication with the ifa will see where this goes. Have supplied photos as I've done here.


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## Ex Boat Capt. Carp (Jul 19, 2011)

If any of the other teams that fished that tournament had a back bone they all would and should jump on board with you and shut it down and come out in public stating that this was unfair and nobody will fish that tournament till it gets resolved. After all it could of been anyone of those teams that got put into that situation!! I am curious to see where this one goes.


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## br1006 (Mar 24, 2006)

IFA is on the way out in my opinion anyway! Look at their numbers of contestants this year compared to the last few years. they are way down! Their tournaments suck anyway. If you dont win you might as well not enter because second place only paid like what $1300 or something???

A couple of years ago they were drawing close to 85 boats at all 3 texas stops, now they have about 50?


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

That really stinks. I hope something positive comes of it. At least a change of the weigh master.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Had a phone conversation with organization by phone this morning. They expressed regret and are reviewing photos supplied be me. Am expecting an answer by the end of the day. They are reviewing this which is all I can ask for at this point. Maybe they can make a positive change to their rules and organization as a result of this. I am trying to have faith in the organization. Hopefully it can be resolved equitably for all involved. Thank for all the moral support.


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## dparkerh (Jun 24, 2011)

The more I think about this, the more it makes my blood boil. Here is what I just emailed the IFA using the email add shown on their website:

_So -- what's the deal with these tournament results where the winner was DQ'd for having a redfish with an "imperfect tail"? Y'all are catching major heat on line, and if what I read is even 1/2 way true, then it is a black mark on your record to say the least. I am tempted to contact all of your sponsors that I do business with and tell them if they continue to support your organization, then they have lost my business._


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## DIHLON (Nov 15, 2009)

I hope it works out for you. I agree with everyone else; you got screwed.


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

railbird said:


> My partner and I worked hard to find fish yesterday and in the last few minutes, we found what we thought to be winners. We had 15+ lbs on our boga (very acurate). This weight would had made us 1st or second based on our measurements.
> 
> Unfortunately we were mistaken. There is a new sheriff in town and his name is Randy Mcbride. He is the new tournament director. We had a 25.5" fish dq'd because in Randy's words "he didn't have a perfect tail" therefore, the fish was disqualified. No appeal just dq'd.
> 
> ...


You didn't post the terms for winning. I guess tourney types just know this stuff automatically. I assume the tourney is for weight of legal fish, not length except as to qualify as legal or not.

Assuming your info is true*, plus both of these two premises
1. The trout was a legal fish (at 25+") regardless of the length, perfect tail or otherwise (tourney didn't specify all trout must be under 25").
2. The tourney is based on weight, not length.

I conclude
3.The tail and everything about the tail is irrelevant, even if it was stretched.

If above is not correct, then why not?

Assuming above is correct, you are surely entitled to some remedy. Moreover, the judge, supposedly a sheriff somewhere, may not be qualified to enforce the law any where, based not only the apparent cognitive deficits, perhaps based on illegal activity.
At a minimum, it makes sense to have him checked out. (This ain't law West of the Pecos.)

Suggestion:
Exhaust all intratourney remedies/alternatives.
If that doesn't work:
Hire a lawyer/PI to investigate a link between the judge and the $30K prize winner.
I'll bet other tournament fisherpersons on this board will donate to fund the inquiries.

*If it isn't, then look out.


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

Caca Del Toro


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

railbird said:


> My partner and I worked hard to find fish yesterday and in the last few minutes, we found what we thought to be winners. We had 15+ lbs on our boga (very acurate). This weight would had made us 1st or second based on our measurements.
> 
> Unfortunately we were mistaken. There is a new sheriff in town and his name is Randy Mcbride. He is the new tournament director. We had a 25.5" fish dq'd because in Randy's words "he didn't have a perfect tail" therefore, the fish was disqualified. No appeal just dq'd.
> 
> ...


I edited this after _I looked at pics and saw it was a red tourney. (The principle is the same.)

_ You didn't post the terms for winning. I guess tourney types just know this stuff automatically. I assume the tourney is for weight of legal fish, not length except as to qualify as legal or not.

Assuming your info is true*, plus both of these two premises
1. The red was a legal slot fish (at approx 25+", clearly over 20", clearly under 28") regardless of the exact length, perfect tail or otherwise.
2. The tourney is based on weight, not length.

I conclude
3.The tail and everything about the tail is irrelevant, since the fish obviously makes the slot, and the judge should weigh your fish.

If above is not correct, then why not?

Assuming above is correct, you are surely entitled to some remedy. Moreover, the judge, supposedly a sheriff somewhere, may not be qualified to enforce the law any where, based not only the apparent cognitive deficits, perhaps based on illegal activity.
At a minimum, it makes sense to have him checked out. (This ain't law West of the Pecos.)

Suggestion:
Exhaust all intratourney remedies/alternatives.
If that doesn't work:
Hire a lawyer/PI to investigate a link between the judge and the $30K prize winner.
I'll bet other tournament fisherpersons on this board will donate to fund the inquiries.

*If it isn't, then look out.


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## troutsupport (May 22, 2006)

I could understand if it looked deformed to make it shorter on the 28" end.. so it would fit... that would be questionable... but it's absurd to dq a fish in the mid range when therer is NO intent from the fishermen to maliciously deform the fish to fit into the slot. Thats the reason for the rule anyway. 

I think someone's got a power trip and is trying to make up for other short things in their pockets. 

You didn't get robbed Chuck... you got screwed! 

I feel for ya, and i'd be ******. 
t


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

There was a post similar to this not to long ago..

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?p=4123568#post4123568

Unreal how common sense has evaded a human being.


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## gonefishing2 (Apr 28, 2011)

IFA has always DQ ed alot of fish due to an imperfect tail, so I dont beleive this is anything against railbird personally or politics, but I really have no idea. I also thought it was pretty common knowledge that this fish has to have a "perfect tail" in IFA. Was this not discussed pryor to the tournament? I do disagree as most things in nature are not "perfect", and I would think a polygraph would sort out any tampering assuming they do polygraph.


I do think you got hosed railbird, Id be ****** too.


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## dparkerh (Jun 24, 2011)

Next thing they will DQ certain reds with more than one spot per side....


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

BustinTops said:


> Wow....I can see if it was a 27" 3/4 and had a piece missing. But at that length it shouldn't of mattered.......Just my opinion ovcourse.


X2


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

Ya had me goin' there for a minute, bub--for real. Congrats--30K is pretty serious prize $.



railbird said:


> There is a new sheriff in town and his name is Randy Mcbride. He is the new tournament director.


Nobody said where this happened, but someone mentioned Rockport. 
According to their offices, there is no one named McBride in the Aransas Cy Sheriff's Dept or anywhere else in law enforcement in the Rockport/Fulton/AP area, much less a Randy.

I finally figured out your line "new sheriff in town" is a figure of speech. The joke was on me. (I'm sure Sheriff Mills will catch it right off.)

I never heard of IFA or IFGA, don't fish tourneys, don't care about tourneys, don't like tourneys, wish they had never invented tourneys, but it's a free country, so far, and I nevertheless got a little cranked up about this--not only, but largely because you said the offending official is also the local sheriff. In addition to that, I have a marked aversion to seeing anyone get screwed either by crookery or by stupidity.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Sorry you misunderstand. Just a figure of speech when there's a change of control. Thanks for your support in this. 

I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until the is something final from the executives of the organization.


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

railbird said:


> Sorry you misunderstand. Just a figure of speech when there's a change of control. Thanks for your support in this.
> 
> I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until the is something final from the executives of the organization.


No sweat--_caveat lector, _I always say.

What was the actual winning weight, anyway?


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## C.Hern5972 (Jul 17, 2009)

I hope all works out for you and your team. I cant see anything wrong with the fish you guys presented. I think it is politics as mentioned. This is the reason i got out of fishing tournaments. Screw that, thats a big chunk of change to get screwed out of.


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## Stros121 (Jun 15, 2011)

railbird said:


> My partner and I worked hard to find fish yesterday and in the last few minutes, we found what we thought to be winners. We had 15+ lbs on our boga (very acurate). This weight would had made us 1st or second based on our measurements.
> 
> Unfortunately we were mistaken. There is a new sheriff in town and his name is Randy Mcbride. He is the new tournament director. We had a 25.5" fish dq'd because in Randy's words "he didn't have a perfect tail" therefore, the fish was disqualified. No appeal just dq'd.
> 
> ...


I keep looking at the tail then looking at 25.5" and cant figure it out. what could they be thinking? Bad deal


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## netboy (Dec 12, 2006)

Seems to me that if there was a question about cheating or tampering with a fish's tail they would simply ask the contestant to take a polygraph test and settle the issue right then and there. I assume they give polygraph tests to the top winners as in most of the other big money tournaments.


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## Texas Javelina (Dec 23, 2009)

What I don’t understand is that I believe the tournament rules are based on each states guidelines and rules for that species. I don’t believe the size limit and how to measure a fish is made up by the tournament but intended to mirror the laws of that state. In Texas the length limit for redfish is 20-28 inches with each state mandating its length, bag and possession limits and all tournaments follow those rules. Any fish deemed mutilated by the angler and thus circumvent these rules would be breaking the law and thus subject to a fine by TPWD or be DQ'd by a tournament official. Any fish that suffered injuries due to predators or was genetically different but still fit these guidelines would be considered legal. 

I just spoke with TPWD in Austin and this was confirmed …I guess several of the weigh masters and tournament directors have their own rules….I would be upset if TPWD deemed the fish legal and a tournament director DQ'd it.


I guess if and when I fish another tournament I will start looking at the tails…I have not in the past and have never been questioned but I guess no one wanted to mess with the guy who typically comes in with only 2-5lb fish.


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

*De-Tailing Reds*

There is never a question whether a 25.5" red with a tail irregularity of 1/4" max is legal, in the slot, not under 20" and not over 28". That's why this judge dq's himself by default *in any rational world* (assuming RB provided accurate info).

My guess is this poor guy just got a little bogged down in detail and forgot the rationale for checking tails. Maybe an OCD type.
Clearly some sort of cognitive impairment, assuming he isn't a crook.


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## trntybay99 (Jan 9, 2011)

*terrible mistake*

I used to enjoy tournament fishing. And it is instances like this that put a bad taste in everyones mouth's good luck with your appeal, and if they cant see the err of their ways f*** em and feed em fish heads, or tails in your instance. It is a **** shame but unless we boycott these cork suckers they will not stop.


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## RobRed (Jan 9, 2011)

Man that blows.....


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

*Who What When Where?*

What is the official name, date, place of this tournament?

Please post a link to the scoring and rules.

I've spent a lot of time on this.

Railbird or someone please help me out. Apparently there was more than one IFA tourney in Rockport last weekend, and they have different scoring
and rules. One was a photo release thingy.

I want to be able to read the details on this one. TIA
(If you don't know, don't guess.)


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Search ifa redfish on google. I think it's redfishtour.com. There was a kayak event on Sunday too. When I looked yesterday the was a picture of the winners on the home page.


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## RobRed (Jan 9, 2011)

the Kayak side of the IFA is "CPR" catch photo release. This situation was talked about among some fellow yakers and it was agreed that this wasnot good.

Im actually still waiting on a check from the last IFA . There was a mix up with someone turning in a pic of an undersize red and some how he received credit for it putting him in first. This mishap threw off the whole pay out. I fished this this weekend one and placed with Biggest red but still upset because they have yet to pay me the difference.

http://www.texaskayakfisherman.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177946


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## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

Brine Jake said:


> What is the official name, date, place of this tournament?
> 
> Please post a link to the scoring and rules.
> 
> ...


http://www.redfishtour.com/tournaments/rockport_12.html


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## Smackdaddy53 (Nov 4, 2011)

RobRed said:


> the Kayak side of the IFA is "CPR" catch photo release. This situation was talked about among some fellow yakers and it was agreed that this wasnot good.
> 
> Im actually still waiting on a check from the last IFA . There was a mix up with someone turning in a pic of an undersize red and some how he received credit for it putting him in first. This mishap threw off the whole pay out. I fished this this weekend one and placed with Biggest red but still upset because they have yet to pay me the difference.
> 
> http://www.texaskayakfisherman.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177946


I always wondered how a cpr tourney worked when live and dead weigh ins get crazy

-mac-


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

Chuck is this guy with WPP?I see winning fish no doubt.


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

Tortuga said:


> http://www.redfishtour.com/tournaments/rockport_12.html


Tortuga, 
Thank ya!

That's what I thought--2 slot fish weigh-in. I was thrown off by the CR Photo Kayak thing later.

Still looks like RB mighta got robbed, although as many big reds as everybody's catching, I didn't see how a duo with a 25.5" would be in the running.

Either way, the tail ruling was completely bogus. That much is confirmed.


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## [email protected] (Jun 25, 2005)

Brine Jake said:


> Tortuga,
> Thank ya!
> 
> That's what I thought--2 slot fish weigh-in. I was thrown off by the CR Photo Kayak thing later.
> ...


Fishing was very tough that day due to absolutely no wind until noon. It is a wind driven bite and the reds had lockjaw until the wind picked up. Also when there is no wind on a weekend, all the boat traffic disperses the reds and gives them lockjaw as well. Once the wind picked up so did the bite but it was too late for a lot of teams. On days like that 15 lbs can take it all.


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I always wondered how a cpr tourney worked when live and dead weigh ins get crazy
> 
> -mac-


depending on how it is organized, it could run well...

i fish Sharkathon, it's a CPR tournament on big shell at PINS...have some GREAT payouts for shark, reds, trout, even a bonus tarpon catagory...all fish must be released, but you have to take certain pictures for the "weigh-in"....even on the beach, all contestants that have a shot at the top for either catagory go through a polygraph right there on site, on the sand....don't understand why the IFA can't do the same as far as poly goes, especially with that kind of money.


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## gunsmoke11 (Apr 30, 2012)

I say poly the weigh master to see if that was a fair ruling in his mind and not rigged


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## gunsmoke11 (Apr 30, 2012)

Poly the weigh master


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## Im Headed South (Jun 28, 2006)

The fish that was kicked didn't weigh 7.65+ that it would have taken to win, it did cost them at least 3rd maybe even 2nd but to say it cost them 30k+ is false. 2nd paid $1752 and 3rd paid $1357, those are the numbers it may have cost them. btw I was standing right next to the TD when he looked the fish over and dq'ed it.

Mike


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

Im Headed South said:


> The fish that was kicked didn't weigh 7.65+ that it would have taken to win, it did cost them at least 3rd maybe even 2nd but to say it cost them 30k+ is false. 2nd paid $1752 and 3rd paid $1357, those are the numbers it may have cost them. btw I was standing right next to the TD when he looked the fish over and dq'ed it.
> 
> Mike


doesn't matter on the money side, they were in the running for at least a place....what is being talked about is the crappy decision to DQ the fish for the tail and judging by other pics i have seen of the people that did win, RB's tail was not in bad shape compared to the others...

if you were standing right there when they DQ'd the fish, should that fish have been DQ'd by what the tail looked like and was it a fair decision....remember, pics are up and out there with the winners to judge.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Our fish weighed 8# and just under 7.5# on our boga. I would have liked to have had a chance to find out. The fish that was weighed in was 8# the same as the boga. You never know if what you read in the heat of battle when fishing a tournament. We all have had fish come in smaller and heavier than we see on the boga. Human error in these situations is hard to discount. I don't disagree with mike on this. I am confident we had 2nd locked up, sure would have liked to find out if we had 1st.


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

osoobsessed said:


> doesn't matter on the money side, they were in the running for at least a place....what is being talked about is the crappy decision to DQ the fish for the tail and judging by other pics i have seen of the people that did win, RB's tail was not in bad shape compared to the others...
> 
> if you were standing right there when they DQ'd the fish, should that fish have been DQ'd by what the tail looked like and was it a fair decision....remember, pics are up and out there with the winners to judge.


i think i misread Mike's reply....for that, i apologize Mike!

:redface:


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## Hogheaven (May 25, 2004)

Railbird.. clear some PMs. LOL


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Hogheaven said:


> Railbird.. clear some PMs. LOL


its done, sorry


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## dparkerh (Jun 24, 2011)

gunsmoke11 said:


> Poly the weigh master


^ X2


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## biglake411 (Jan 5, 2010)

*ouch*

Saw this post on the IFA message board:

http://www.redfishtour.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3084

That really sucks that your fish got kicked out. I'm sure I'd be PO'd if it happened to me. I don't fish IFA events but I've heard stories about the "fish nazzi" bumping the fish in some of their events.

I'm sure it won't make you feel any better about it, but for what it's worth I can promise you that this fish would have been DQ'd from an HT tournament also. Not sure what the IFA rules say concerning tails but HT is very clear about it. Here is a copy of the rule posted for the 2013 HT qualifiers:

*10. Measuring/Fish Condition. *Tournament Standings shall be determined by the aggregate weight measured in pounds and 100th of a pound. Only redfish can be possessed and only redfish will be weighed, the limit shall be two (2) red fish per team, per day. All redfish must measure according to state slot limits. Presenting fish outside of the state allowed slot limit will not be counted nor weighed. Each fish will be measured using the Check It Stik as the official measuring board and placed in HT's angled hands off measuring system with perfect pincher tail pincher. Each fish will be measured with its' head to the left of the fish measuring official and it's belly facing the official's belly.HT officials reserve the right to refuse any red fish deemed to have been altered, (accidentally or intentionally) and/or damaged sufficiently to make determining the *exact *length of the fish's overall tail non conclusive. Any tail without a clear tip of the tail showing the longest natural point will be refused.

HT also allows us to take a pic of the fish & text it to tournament officials if we have a fish with a questionable tail. I assume that is what the guy was asking about on the IFA board.

Nothing against the IFA, but when it comes to bumping the fish, HT has them beat hands down. It's done hands off & the same exact way for every single fish.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

I had a long conversation with the head of the IFA today. The subject is still under investigation. I was told they would give me a call in the next 24 hours on their decision. From my conversations with them, i believe they are trying to run a good tournament. It appears to me they are going about it the wrong way. Its unfortunate teams like ours have to get hosed to protect the field against those who would attempt to cheat. 

They have to this point decided that dq'ing a few innocent teams to protect the field from someone who would cheat the field is the lesser of 2 evils. I for one hope they would find a more surefire way to root out the cheaters. If this discussion advances that goal then us being dq'd could result in a positive outcome for other teams.

chuck


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

I hope they come to the correct conclusion.


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## FireEater (Jul 31, 2009)

From reading these types of threads, I guess the decision that falls on the weighmasters is. Just how much would a contestant alter a tail to bring it in under the 28" mark?

Then try to blame the wounds on anything else but purposely altering. 

Just how much could one alter the tail before it comes into question? A 1/16", 1/8", 1/4" to maybe a 1/2" at best? 

Seems the only way around all this is a mandatory polygraph for each Redfish Angler that takes 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. That is, if the weighmasters call for one due to what they see. 


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk 2012


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## knowphish (Jul 10, 2008)

A. This smells to high heaven!!!
B. They've been giving polygraphs in bass tournaments for years.
C. This definitely has the potenetail to put a damper on all their tournaments!!!


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

I would hope they would polygraph any team that had anything questionable about their fish. That would protect the field and the integrity of the organization. This would be preferrable to fish being dq'd because of bad luck.


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

*Good grief*

The problem is quite clear.

Unless the tail irregularity implies somethng other than an alteration in length, in any rational world, dq'ing this fish which measured 25.5" and having an irregularity in its tail at most 1/4"--(even say a whole inch!) just wouldn't float. Period. In any rational world.

But here's what the man said in the the posted link (bold highlight added):
"Our process regarding this issue is like this: At each and every event the Tournament Director makes an announcement that "if a fish does not have a natural tail, and if any part of the tail is missing, the fish will not be weighed, *no matter what size the fish is*." ...The word "perfect" is often used to describe what we are looking for."

There it is in black and white.

All we can conclude from this is that these tournament people are complete lunatics, and anyone who pays money to participate is pretty questionable as well. Think about it, folks.

I have no dog in this hunt except for

Liberty and Justice for all, _sans_ abject insanity,

Later,
BJ
"_Caveat emptor_" and tournament free for life.



biglake411 said:


> Saw this post on the IFA message board:
> 
> http://www.redfishtour.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3084
> ....
> ...


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## unclefes (Jul 13, 2006)

It seems like the intention of the rule is to keep a fish that is right on or just over the line from being tampered with, i was in the line right behind another team that had a 25 or so inch fish tossed because the very top spline had been broken off. i saw it myself, it was old damage that had healed but it got thrown out anyway. I think the tail issue should be a judgment call on the part of the tournament director with an emphasis on length manipulation, i cant agree with tossing 25 inch fish because there is a perch bite missing from the middle or top third of the tail. The tournament director should have let you weigh in, it was obvious you werent trying to manipulate anything to make the fish measure. Bad call and bad mojo for the IFA. It is too bad because i have always felt like they did a good job with their tournaments.


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## Whittle (Jun 20, 2008)

Sorry Bud! I know after years of fishing with you and fishing the tournaments in the past that you don't cheat. Also a woman witnessed a group in 2009 cross the scales with a fish over 28" and they won the tournament. It was early in weigh in and they waited till no one was watching. Yes, that was the Last IFA I fished with you as I refuse to throw $$ at people that cheat the system. Why do some reds slide the scale quick and others are pushed on, flipped, and pressed. READERS DRINK A FEW LESS AND WATCH JUDGE!


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## rsparker67 (Mar 30, 2008)

So what does a "perfect" redfish tail look like anyway???? Common sense seems to always go out the window in tournaments. Unfortunate but typical... Hire off duty game wardens to be the weight master and this wouldn't be an issue, hire a "McBride" with an attitude to show his power and bs is what shows... 
Railbird, hope it all works out in the end but don't count your chickens on it, you and Josh got hosed and the IFA is not going to make it right because it would set a precedence for future problems/unjustified judgements.... There's to much subjective mentality with judges in tournaments seems like but if you enjoy them and can deal with the bs that come with it then more power to you.. Just ask for Vaseline next time!


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## Chris_78676 (Dec 28, 2009)

I didn't have the pleasure of fishing this tournament but have fished some in the past. As in the bass tournament world there should be a Game Warden at these tournaments to make final rulings on altered fish. I watched as three people went to jail this past weekend for trying to cheat in a bass tournament. And when a questionable fish was brought to the scales he was right there to make sure everything was correct. And also having a Game Warden present will discourage any one trying to cheat as they also handed out a few tickets at the tournament as well.


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## knowphish (Jul 10, 2008)

Chris_78676 said:


> I didn't have the pleasure of fishing this tournament but have fished some in the past. As in the bass tournament world there should be a Game Warden at these tournaments to make final rulings on altered fish. I watched as three people went to jail this past weekend for trying to cheat in a bass tournament. And when a questionable fish was brought to the scales he was right there to make sure everything was correct. And also having a Game Warden present will discourage any one trying to cheat as they also handed out a few tickets at the tournament as well.


It would even worth their while to pay a Game Warden, off duty or not, to perform that service. Such a simple solution, to a $%&%%& problem!!!!!!!!


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## 4x4Tahoe (Jan 10, 2006)

This wouldn't be the same fishing tournament director Randy McBride, would it?

http://onlineathens.com/stories/022100/spo_fish.shtml
http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/2000/02/20/met_283706.shtml


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## worstSPECKanglerTX (May 30, 2012)

There's an awful lot of people viewing this thread. We are behind you rail bird! From experience, HUGE company's can't stand a bunch of bad feedback like this let alone a fishing tournament. Word of mouth spreads quickly and if there's one thing I've learned it's to be careful about what gets said over the internet because of how fast it can travel.

Hope they decide to do right. It's in their best interest.


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Fishing was very tough that day due to absolutely no wind until noon. It is a wind driven bite and the reds had lockjaw until the wind picked up. Also when there is no wind on a weekend, all the boat traffic disperses the reds and gives them lockjaw as well. Once the wind picked up so did the bite but it was too late for a lot of teams. On days like that 15 lbs can take it all.


Thanks for the informed reply to my Q.


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

*It's all over but the shoutin*

I can't believe I wasted so much time on this.  It took about ten pages before anyone posted a statement of the rule.

"Our process regarding this issue is like this: At each and every event the Tournament Director makes an announcement that "if a fish does not have a natural tail, and if any part of the tail is missing, the fish will not be weighed, *no matter what size the fish is*." ...The word "perfect" is often used to describe what we are looking for."

That is perfectly clear. If they put that in writing, then Railbird doesn't have a leg to stand on.

_Caveat emptor.
_


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Brine Jake said:


> I can't believe I wasted so much time on this. It took about ten pages before anyone posted a statement of the rule.
> 
> "Our process regarding this issue is like this: At each and every event the Tournament Director makes an announcement that "if a fish does not have a natural tail, and if any part of the tail is missing, the fish will not be weighed, *no matter what size the fish is*." ...The word "perfect" is often used to describe what we are looking for."
> 
> ...


The statement you quote is from a post yesterday. The written rule is nothing close to this. We have to sign a document stating we have read and understand the rules. Al previous tournaments th director stated it must have a natural tail. I'm screwed I'm sure but will wait to get final decision. Thanks for all the 2cool support.


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## biglake411 (Jan 5, 2010)

*Official rules*

*Official IFA Rule #17*
_
C/P from http://redfishtour.com/rules.html_

"*17. SCORING: Tournament standings, auxiliary awards and final winners shall be determined by the total weight measured in pounds and 100th of a pound of each teams catch during the tournament. Only Redfish/Red Drum will be weighed and the limit shall be 2 fish per day per team. The prevailing rules as set forth by the Inshore Fishing Association along with federal, state and local statutes and regulations bind all competitors. Contestants will at no time have in their possession in the live well more than the tournament limit of fish. Tournament official length for Redfish will be according to the STATE LAWS in the state in which that event is being held. All Redfish will be measured with mouth closed and with pinched tail. Any fish that appears to have been penned, mangled, mashed, mauled or otherwise altered will not be weighed at the discretion of the weigh master. Redfish must NOT be placed on a stringer at any time during the tournament."*


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

railbird said:


> I would hope they would polygraph any team that had anything questionable about their fish. That would protect the field and the integrity of the organization. This would be preferrable to fish being dq'd because of bad luck.


You mentioned a fish being dq'd because of bad luck. Let me replace bad luck with bad judgement, preferential treatment, or ignorance. If nothing else maybe it will make them rethink the rules, or rewrite them so that something like this does not happen again.


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## unclefes (Jul 13, 2006)

How do you define perfect. there is no such thing as perfect. a natural redfish tail may have a little dent in it, it is the way he was made. they need to redefine this rule with the emphasis on the length of a fish that may or may not measure.


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## gaw623 (Nov 17, 2009)

I am the one that asked about taking the picture for an immediate yes or no. At least this way you will know to keep fishing or not. 
I will be willing to bet quite a few fish will get dq'd this weekend at the IFA in Delacriox, LA. The freshwater there is known for eating up the tails.
Team Big ****** Mullet
Gary & Gus Wilson


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## dparkerh (Jun 24, 2011)

So, where is this issue going at the moment? are you going to get a consideration? Find out more info from the IFA? Whip somebodies as s?


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## biglake411 (Jan 5, 2010)

*.*

There are a lot of different ways to look at this situation. From what I can see from what railbird has posted it is the IFA's intent to protect the field as a whole against a very select few who would alter a tail just to win some money. That in itself is probably a good thing. As railbird mentioned, perhaps this incident will bring forth a rule change or a rewording of the current rule to make it more cut & dry. Maybe there is a better way to police this issue & something positive will come from all this mess.

Whether or not we all think the rule itself is B.S. is really irrelevant. The rule is in place & therefore those who choose to fish these events must abide by those rules. The issue that this fish getting DQ'd has brought to light is the vagueness of the rule itself.

"*Any fish that appears to have been penned, mangled, mashed, mauled or otherwise altered will not be weighed at the discretion of the weigh master."*

Hopefully this will be reworded in a way that will be a little clearer some time in the future.

I think we can all agree that there are a lot more fish swimming around out there with good tails than there are with bad tails. So I totally understand railbird when he refers to "bad luck".

The spirit of the rule is to protect the anglers against those who would cheat to win. Plain & simple. Let's just say that this ruls was not in play & a team beat you with a fish that was missing half it's tail & if the tail had been there it would have been way over the slot. I'm talking about something similar to this:

http://www.redfishcountry.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=492

What are your feelings on this? The winners obviously didn't have a thing to do with the tail being like that. So if you got 2nd because of something like this, how would you feel?


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## knowphish (Jul 10, 2008)

Any words of "wisdom" from the IFA?


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

*No charge*

Long story short:
Here is a sample version of the stipulation they need. It ain't rocket science:

*"Only redfish which can be clearly and unmistakably identified as legal slot redfish will be accepted/weighed.** *

*If and when determination by exact measurement is required (fish close to 20" or close to 28") any tail irregularity which interferes with exact measurement disqualifies the fish.*"

Check my work.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

Looks like a great! An excellent adjustment.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Nov 4, 2011)

Brine Jake said:


> I can't believe I wasted so much time on this. It took about ten pages before anyone posted a statement of the rule.
> 
> "Our process regarding this issue is like this: At each and every event the Tournament Director makes an announcement that "if a fish does not have a natural tail, and if any part of the tail is missing, the fish will not be weighed, *no matter what size the fish is*." ...The word "perfect" is often used to describe what we are looking for."
> 
> ...


What about all the other fish that werent disqualified that had tails that looked even worse? Makes no sense whatsoever i dont care how anyone word whips a bunch of rules that obviously mean nothing because the rules seem to be bent by the guy that DQd his fish. Look at the photos, its self explanatory why hes ****** about the ruling.

-mac-


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

*Long story long--review of Fool-Proofing rationale for IFA and HT Officials*



biglake411 said:


> ...As railbird mentioned, perhaps this incident will bring forth a rule change or a rewording of the current rule to make it more cut & dry. Maybe there is a better way to police this issue & something positive will come from all this mess.
> 
> Whether or not we all think the rule itself is B.S. is really irrelevant. The rule is in place & therefore those who choose to fish these events must abide by those rules. The issue that this fish getting DQ'd has brought to light is the vagueness of the rule itself.
> 
> ...


Good words. like Smackdaddy notes, nothing is foolproof--but we can get closer than this.

You see that the problem is that the rule is not really "in place". "Discretion" is your first clue.

It allows too much unnecessary discretion. It needs some clarification. Railbird was right the first time. There is no written rule which disqualifies his fish--nor should there be. His fish was clearly a legal slot red. It was disqualified by a foolish act. The problem really is just absence of an adequate stipulation to help foolproof the rules--literally. (As we have seen from attempts to work up fishing etiquette guidelines, outdoorspersons are not the sorts of people who have much interest in writing rules. They think it is funny, and a waste of time--so they're not any good at it, apparently.)

So I see that officials in these tourney organizatons simply lack the skills to write definitive rules. Instead they take your money and allow stupid incompetent actions like this. (At least these people are just jacking around in red fish tournaments, and not doing any real damage to society at large. Heheh--No tellin what they do in bass tourneys.)

The purpose of the rule is to make sure officials can determine without a doubt that a fish is a legal slot red fish. RIGHT? (If there is another rationale, somebody clue me in. Like maybe a ding means the red was caught in a trap or something? I don't think so.) (Like I said, I don't jack with tournaments, and never thought about any of this.)

So the *ONLY* time exact measurement is needed is when the fish is close to the limits on the slot. Period. Right?

*It is not that difficult to clean up this rule.
*
Following the other org HT
"HT officials reserve the right to refuse any red fish deemed to have been altered, (accidentally or intentionally) and/or damaged sufficiently to make determining the *exact *length of the fish's overall tail non conclusive. Any tail without a clear tip of the tail showing the longest natural point will be refused."

looks great at first. But it, too allows for too much discretion. Obviously it has led to overregulation, unnecessary disqualifications, it's usless in the middle of the slot, and unfair if applied, by some idiot, like with Railbird's fish. It's another inadequate rule becasuse you have foolish officials who exercise the "right" when it shouldn't be exercised. The rule is not fool-proof.

Why not simply state, for example 
*"Only fish which can be identified as legal slot red fish by exact measurement, when required, will be weighed."*

or
*"Judges will weigh only fish which can be clearly identified as legal slot redfish, by exact measurement when required. Tail alterations interfering with this disqualify a fish."
*
Or a little more explicitly
*"Only redfish which can be clearly and unmistakably identified as legal slot redfish will be accepted/weighed.** *

*If and when determination by exact measurement is required (fish close to 20" or close to 28") any tail irregularity which interferes with exact measurement disqualifies the fish.*"

This would place the emphasis on exact measurement right where it belongs: *on fish that are close to the slot boundaries* at either end.
This notifies the fools that the exact tail rule only applies when it matters.

Perfect tail requirement/measurement in the middle of the slot is superfluous, unnecessary, unfair, and the work of fools. There will still be plenty of disputes at the 20 and 28" fringes. People can stil get screwed, but it will have to be close, at least.)

Check my work. Informed correctives welcome.

(For all practical purposes, this is equivalent to the rationale of the guy who suggested that they should just use game wardens.)

There are hundreds of ways to frame up a good written stipulation to cover this flaw. Unfortunately the incompetents at IFA (and HT) failed, so far, to hit on even one of them. Maybe this is their first rodeo.

_Been fun blowing off steam,

Caveat emptor_

"They don't call it Fool-Proofing fer nothin."
and remember:
"Never play poker with complete idiots."


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> What about all the other fish that werent disqualified that had tails that looked even worse? Makes no sense whatsoever i dont care how anyone word whips a bunch of rules that obviously mean nothing because the rules seem to be bent by the guy that DQd his fish. Look at the photos, its self explanatory why hes ****** about the ruling.
> -mac-


I see that. That's another point--selective enforcement. (Like the traffic officer pulls you over at 75 after another guy went by at 100. You're right--changing a rule won't affect that kind of practice.) There might be more than one offense on the part of this judge. (I didn't look at the closeup tail photos of the other fish.)

I've since been shown that that isn't the rule, anyway. There really is also a problem with the way the rules are written. They gave this bad official too much unnecessary discretion. Sure, he could still cheat Railbird on the fringes, but he couldn't disqualify his 25.5" inch redfish under the improved rule.

I agree with you that no rule is foolproof, but just because any rule can be bent or broken doesn't mean some rules aren't a lot better than others. Bad rules can be improved. Think about it. And this rule can be improved.


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

In all, i have spent about an 1.5 hours in discussions with the ifa officials. I understand they are trying to do the right thing, i feel they are on the wrong path. The explanation i recieved was they are doing this (perfect tail rule) to take most if not all discretion out or the hands of the td. When it is brought to his attention, he basicly has no choice if the tail is damaged. I hope their written rule is cleaned up to at least fit what they are doing. Otherwise, they should not even bother with having written rules. I have forwarded brinejakes suggestions to the owner of the organization and he said they would seriously look at the proposed change to the rules. He said they would likely not do it until the end of this season, unless it obviously solves all issues. As for the polygraph for any questionable fish, it is not fesible and they felt it would not solve all issues either. After a long discussion, i can't say i disagree. 

For all who want to find a conspiracy here, i don't see one. I wish it hadn't happened to us, but it did and i will live with it. The amount of money here will not change my life or effect my happiness. Therefore, I am going to drop this and move on. I will likely fish a few IFA's in the future when time and cash flow permit. 

As for any remedy's some might believe we are entitled to, I look at this from their position. If the do anything for us, they would have to go back and do it for every team that has been dq'd this year. I understand it, but it is still a hard pill to swallow.

chuck


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

The explanation i recieved was they are doing this (perfect tail rule) to take most if not all discretion out or the hands of the td. 


Wouldn't the "perfect tail" be at the discression of the TD? I think this is where the problem lies, too subjective. You gave them something to think about so something positive may come out of it.


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## waterspout (May 21, 2004)

Game warden would have said legal(even fed),,, he should have also!


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## Brine Jake (Aug 12, 2005)

railbird said:


> For all who want to find a conspiracy here, i don't see one. I wish it hadn't happened to us, but it did and i will live with it. ...
> As for any remedy's some might believe we are entitled to, I look at this from their position. If the do anything for us, they would have to go back and do it for every team that has been dq'd this year. I understand it, but it is still a hard pill to swallow.
> 
> chuck


If it were a conspiracy among a few crooks, that wouldn't be so bad.
That can be dealt with. This is much worse than that. This is officially sanctioned bureacratic incompetence, laziness at the very best, which is now built into the organizational system and will likely continue in perpetuity. People tolerate it, suck it up and just go on because most of the time, it doesn't impinge directly on them.

I knew full well why they allow some idiot to intentionally dq legal fish with this stupid no-tail-flaw-reagrdless-of-length rule: Pure laziness, at the very best. They can't trust their help. They're unwilling to get people who will do a competent job. They want to take your money, put on a tourney, and then cut corners in places where it really matters.

You can fwd this along, too.


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