# Deer corn killing off quail???



## mr. buck (Jan 11, 2009)

Ray Sasser seems to think it is a problem. What say some of the experts on the board?

*Is deer corn a quail killer?*

*09:52 PM CST on Saturday, February 6, 2010*

*Column by RAY SASSER / The Dallas Morning News | [email protected]*









Ray Sasser Archive | E-mail

As another poor quail season grinds toward a halt, I'm struck by a disturbing thought. Texas deer hunters may be killing more quail than quail hunters kill, and the deer hunters are not even aware they're doing it. 
How is that possible? Deer hunters put out an estimated 300 million to 500 million pounds of corn each year to bait white-tailed deer near hunting blinds. Anyone who's watched a bait pile in quail country has seen birds eating corn. It's not just quail; a huge variety of seed-eating birds, including some rare species, consume those golden kernels. 
Several factors are blamed for the precipitous decline of bobwhite quail, habitat changes ranking first. I don't think it's a coincidence, however, that the quail decline parallels the dramatic expansion of white-tailed deer and deer hunting throughout West Texas. 
Even in South Texas, the state's other ecological island of quail habitat, the practice of baiting deer with corn accelerated in the 1980s. In December, I hunted quail in the Oklahoma Panhandle with John Cox, a wildlife biologist who feeds quail, both as a means of supplementing the birds' natural diet against harsh winter weather and to congregate them for hunting. He no longer uses corn or the smaller grain seeds that quail hunters often prefer. 
"I'm feeding the quail with black-eyed peas," Cox said. "Peas work great in an automatic feeder. When you buy them in bulk, they're cheaper than corn. Quail, deer and turkeys all love the peas, and I can go to sleep at night not wondering how many coveys I poisoned that day." 
The poison that Cox refers to is aflatoxin, a substance produced by fungi that grow on corn and other food staples. Aflatoxin rates in wildlife corn caused a stir in the 1990s when biologists became concerned about potential damage to deer and other wildlife. 
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration does not allow grain that tests more than 20 parts per billion of aflatoxin to be fed to dairy cattle or used for human consumption. It winds up as wildlife feed. Several studies have indicated aflatoxin can weaken and even kill wildlife. 
West Texas quail guru Dale Rollins said he's more concerned with secondary effects of aflatoxin. Diminished immunity means the birds are more susceptible to disease. Feeding the birds tends to congregate them, so disease spreads more quickly. 
In December, Texas Tech's Quail Tech Alliance sent out a memo to its charter ranch members warning of the risk of supplemental feeding after a cooperating ranch tested its wildlife corn and found it contaminated. Information is available at the project Web site, *www.quail-tech.org*. 
Every expert I've spoken with said that the wildlife feed industry is doing a better job of testing for aflatoxin. Corn testing 100 ppb or higher is not acceptable as "deer corn." Read the label on every sack of corn you buy. That's the good news. 
The bad news comes from Scott Henke, a researcher with the Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute in Kingsville. His aflatoxin research concluded that putting clean corn into aflatoxin-contaminated feeders defeats the purpose of aflatoxin-free corn. 
"My study showed that no one storage practice short of freezing the grain effectively curtailed the growth of fungi-producing aflatoxin," Henke said. 
Aflatoxin tests are performed when corn is bagged at the mill. Sacks of corn may sit for months in a warehouse or in front of a convenience store. On a ranch, corn and other feeds are routinely stored in bulk bins. 
Furthermore, I've never known of hunters who clean out their feeders with disinfectant or even a power washer. 
The issue is complicated by the fact that aflatoxin occurs in nature. Also, quail or other birds that succumb to aflatoxin don't die under the feeder. They get sick and weaken slowly. They die out of sight, hiding in thick cover, and are usually eaten by a coyote or some other scavenger. 
I'm not sure how scientists can even design a study that reveals the impact of aflatoxin on quail, but common sense tells me the impact is significant. 
How many times have you heard this quail hunter's lament? "We had plenty of quail in September but they were gone by November and I don't know what happened to them." Deer hunters ramp up their feeding programs in September and October. 
The evidence may be circumstantial but, until somebody convinces me otherwise, I believe that deer corn is taking a toll on Texas birds.


----------



## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

his article doen't even mention fire ants.. that is a huge problem in Texas for even fawn deer, but especially on the ground laying quail

I doubt the corn has as much effect on them as the fire ants... sounds like an elitist spin to remove baiting deer with the yellow brick roads we all love


----------



## Tyler (Jun 18, 2004)

They may be on to something. I used to enjoy a rat that would come out of a cactus bush at our lease and run and grab a piece of corn like he stole it and run back to his hole. One day we found him dead in the sendero. Later that season, we found another one in a similar spot. My biologist friend and I thought Aflatoxin and sort of forgot about it. And No it wasn't JohnnyQuest that got him!


----------



## mr. buck (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm no expert and I'm sure it does kill off some of the birds but on our place the only quail we still have left are around feeders, hardly any in the pastures. 
Plus his whole premise about texas being bait intensive just doesn't jibe with the fact the we are one of the final strongholds for wild quail hunting. what happened in the southeast to their quail where they don't bait as intensively? they lost their birds well before we did. 
gentleman that ranches our place thinks the falling price of pelts has caused a problem as well. he said trappers and predator hunters use to knock on his door a lot more frequently in the 70's and 80's than they do now. also said hawk concentration has absolutely sky rocketed on his place in the last 20 years. frankly who knows though. if dale rollins hasnt figured out how to save em yet, i doubt anybody has an answer yet.


----------



## dwhite (Jul 11, 2007)

Just buy corn thats been tested negative for aflatoxin, dont let it sit for months at a time before you use it and you dont have a problem. Media causes more problems than fixes...Predators, ants, lack of cover, drought...none of that may have to do with the decline in quail huh?


----------



## rio frio (Jan 12, 2005)

I'm sure that having no significant rain for 2 1/2 to 3 years has a much bigger Impact on all wildlife....although my names not Sasser


----------



## Kicker (Feb 7, 2005)

I'll call ******** on this,,the part about the corn killing as many birds as hunters...I raise Bobwhite, Gambel, Valley, Button, and Pharoah quail, along with 3 kinds of Phesant...Never had a problem with feeding them corn over the years...Also, down at my buddies ranch, the quail are thick, and we throw out tons of corn on the roads, and I have never seen dead quail laying around.


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I know that on a large ranch in South Texas they built small watering and feeding stations for the quail but they had use milo and when it would get wet from dew or rain then aflatoxin became a problem and killed quail.

I've wondered if wet uneaten corn on the ground could cause the same problem.

TH


----------



## Arlon (Feb 8, 2005)

I'd blame the growth of pig and skunk populations before blaming corn. Maybe the corn brings in the critters that find the quail eggs for their afternoon snacks..


----------



## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

I'm no expert for sure but say you are lucky enough to still have some covey's on say 600 acres out North of Sweetwater. You have 6 coveys on the place with about a 17 birds to a covey average, or 102 birds on 600 acres. Along comes me and 3 buddies, with 2 good dogs. We limit out 2 days in a row, and then we wonder what is killing our quail. I say the limit is and has been to high for a long time. With good dogs you can kill literally 75% of your birds in one weekend if you have 4 or 5 gunners and 2 or 3 good dogs and walk all day. With quail declining all over the US, we still do not lower the limit, and the dogs are getting better and better. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Sea-Slug said:


> I'm no expert for sure but say you are lucky enough to still have some covey's on say 600 acres out North of Sweetwater. You have 6 coveys on the place with about a 17 birds to a covey average, or 102 birds on 600 acres. Along comes me and 3 buddies, with 2 good dogs. We limit out 2 days in a row, and then we wonder what is killing our quail. I say the limit is and has been to high for a long time. With good dogs you can kill literally 75% of your birds in one weekend if you have 4 or 5 gunners and 2 or 3 good dogs and walk all day. With quail declining all over the US, we still do not lower the limit, and the dogs are getting better and better. Just my 2 cents.


but they can be raised, as Tyra mentioned... restock the ranch with quail and let them build back up their populations? It's like deer in my opinion... I could buy 600 acres in prime trophy area for $3k an acre or I could by 600 acres in a poor deer populated area that nobody wants for $1k an acre that has the all the goods for growing big deer, high fence it up, then stock it with my own herd to manage. There are options is my point.


----------



## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

Yes they can be pen raised and released a few days before the hunt. The pen raised birds cannot survive on thier own in the wild. Studies show they fall quickly to predation, hawks mostly, cats-yotes. And I have shot pen raised birds several times. No comparison and no sport in my opinion, even if they are flight conditioned. I have a very small covey of wild birds on my place out by Wichita Falls, maybe 11 birds. They have been hanging on by a thread for the last 3 years. The nieghbors still hunt with dogs every weekend in January and early Febuary, but I rarely here them shoot anymore, just walking the dogs. They might kill 15 birds a year on thier 2000 acres nowadays. I do everything I can to help mine out, but it is a losing battle. Hawks-ants-super good nosed dogs, and flying over fences are thier undoing. Last year I had about 21 birds in the covey, but I saw them in December and thier were only 11. I kinda figure they will be gone forever in the next 5 or so years. They died out around my homeplace about 20 years ago, none seen within 30 miles in 20 years. When I was growing up, they were thick as ticks on a stray dog. I am an avid hunter and outdoorsman, but I would like to see limits lowered to 6 birds a day. I do not think there are many if any left East of Decatur in North Texas. They are extinct in most of North Central Texas. And the lower limits may not help much, it is probably inevitable they will be gone someday. They are still thick in NorthWest Texas, but the line is moving west all the time.


----------



## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

As mentioned above, I think the fire ants are the major problem for the quail. Here in East Texas when I was a kid, there were several coveys on our home place and it was only 50 acres. No deer corn on our place or any of the surrounding places. No hunting to any extent either. Now there are no quail to be seen or heard since the ants have taken over. Just my .02.


----------



## DHouser (Jan 6, 2009)

LAst year i had at least 4 good size coveys in my psture behind the house. now im down to 1 covey of about 10 birds. thats all ive seen this year and no one hunts anywhere around me and i dnt shoot em.


----------



## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

mr. buck said:


> I'm no expert and I'm sure it does kill off some of the birds but on our place the only quail we still have left are around feeders, hardly any in the pastures.
> Plus his whole premise about texas being bait intensive just doesn't jibe with the fact the we are one of the final strongholds for wild quail hunting. what happened in the southeast to their quail where they don't bait as intensively? they lost their birds well before we did.
> gentleman that ranches our place thinks the falling price of pelts has caused a problem as well. he said trappers and predator hunters use to knock on his door a lot more frequently in the 70's and 80's than they do now. also said hawk concentration has absolutely sky rocketed on his place in the last 20 years. frankly who knows though. if dale rollins hasnt figured out how to save em yet, i doubt anybody has an answer yet.


I would have to suspect anyone that blames it on habitat change, this is about like global warming. ( been outside lately) I know of miles and miles of land that if anything Is better habitat now then when it had quail. The fur trappers use to do a good job of keeping egg suckers down, now during the spring I see ***** out in the daytime going tree to tree looking for eggs, and not many now days guarding thier chickens in the yard with a rifle or shotgun, hawks are every where now. Fire ants, snakes, feral cats, skunks, opossums, etc.


----------



## Rockin'2 (Sep 26, 2008)

*Nature?*

What about Mother Nature? We used to be told that 85% of all birds die off every year. So if you saw 100 birds in spring, you would expect to see only 15 birds left just before spring the next year. Sounds like what some people were saying and blaming it on something else. I would do an objective, scientifically designed study before I went spouting off in a major newspaper as if I was an expert. Oh wait, that wouldn't sell many papers now would it?


----------



## Kicker (Feb 7, 2005)

Sea-Slug said:


> Yes they can be pen raised and released a few days before the hunt. The pen raised birds cannot survive on thier own in the wild. Studies show they fall quickly to predation, hawks mostly, cats-yotes. And I have shot pen raised birds several times. No comparison and no sport in my opinion, even if they are flight conditioned. I have a very small covey of wild birds on my place out by Wichita Falls, maybe 11 birds. They have been hanging on by a thread for the last 3 years. The nieghbors still hunt with dogs every weekend in January and early Febuary, but I rarely here them shoot anymore, just walking the dogs. They might kill 15 birds a year on thier 2000 acres nowadays. I do everything I can to help mine out, but it is a losing battle. Hawks-ants-super good nosed dogs, and flying over fences are thier undoing. Last year I had about 21 birds in the covey, but I saw them in December and thier were only 11. I kinda figure they will be gone forever in the next 5 or so years. They died out around my homeplace about 20 years ago, none seen within 30 miles in 20 years. When I was growing up, they were thick as ticks on a stray dog. I am an avid hunter and outdoorsman, but I would like to see limits lowered to 6 birds a day. I do not think there are many if any left East of Decatur in North Texas. They are extinct in most of North Central Texas. And the lower limits may not help much, it is probably inevitable they will be gone someday. They are still thick in NorthWest Texas, but the line is moving west all the time.


You could take 500 newly hatched chicks out of one of my incubators, put them in a field brooder out in the brush, release them when they feather out, and they will do well, and will even boost the wild genetics...Bottom line is,,,rain at the right times = good bird population.....Over the last 40 yrs, I've seen the quail population come and go, between the wet and dry years on my buddies ranch in South Texas...If it's dry, you will only see a few pairs,,,on a wet year, they will have 4 or 5 cluthes of eggs, and the population explodes...Some will call caca de toro on this, but I've seen it first hand...Yes, it can be done, and can be made to work..........


----------



## jt2hunt (May 13, 2006)

t boone pickens has or had a ranch in west texas. they have tons of quail, but have spent many hours and dollars changing the landscape. there was an article in a hunting magazine, don't remember which one. very much worth reading. 

habitat, habitat, habitat


----------



## Kicker (Feb 7, 2005)

If you've had the same habitat, habitat, habitat,,,,for years, and the quail come and go, then what would your assumption be????? Rain, Rain, Rain....fo sho!!!! Yeah, you need good habitat,,,but without rain, your not gonna have a good quail crop...PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## jimk (May 28, 2004)

I have no quail on our place in north Karnes County....well, I saw 2 last year. The drought of the last quarter of 2007 and all of 2008 was the worst in over a hundred years...in San Antonio, 2008 had about 13" or rain or 20" below normal and it was the driest of the last 137 years. 

I don't know about the corn, but the lack of rain seems to be the outstanding reason for lack of quail...imo. We have a running creek (Cibolo)through the place but it can't replace the moisture and vegetation growth that the birds need to survive.


----------



## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

fire ants, droughts, and feral cats and hawks


quail are based on family groups, covey size does deff. vary year to year


----------



## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

This is one of the saddest outdoor tragedies of my lifetime. To see a species becoming extinct. Quail were always a part of the fabric of the total outdoor experience for me. 
We have two places, one near San Saba and one in Palo Pinto county. Both were absolutely loaded with quailforever. I started noticing there were fewer at the same time the fire ants came. Now the quail are gone but the ants are still there. 
We never shot more than 10 quail in all those years. So that's not it. The habitat hasn't changed an iota, so that's not it. We have an average amount of predators, but no more than there were when the quail were thick, so that's not it. 
I wonder about the hogs though. Personally, I blame it on fire ante. They are the $1 cause of the decline of quail.
Someone mentioned the dearth of quail in the southeast U.S. There they don't bait deer with corn. But guess where the fire ants entered the U.S.? Mobile, Alabama.
That was the beginning of the end for the quail there. 
I do not have the answer to why there are still quail in south Tx. where they do have fire ants, except maybe that it is so dry there and the ants like lots of moisture that the ant concentrations aren't sufficiently high to have as devestating an impact as they do in other areas of the State.
Follow the ants and you will follow the end of quail.


----------



## M16 (May 28, 2008)

TYRA said:


> If you've had the same habitat, habitat, habitat,,,,for years, and the quail come and go, then what would your assumption be????? Rain, Rain, Rain....fo sho!!!! Yeah, you need good habitat,,,but without rain, your not gonna have a good quail crop...PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!


Amen, but the rain needs to fall at the right time. You also need insect hatches to happen when the quail hatch. I feed lots of grain on my ranch and had a decent crop of quail this year. If the rain continues this year it will be a bumper crop. If the rain continues next year with a large carryover of quail it will be unbelievable.


----------



## Mg50 (Feb 9, 2009)

jt2hunt said:


> t boone pickens has or had a ranch in west texas. they have tons of quail, but have spent many hours and dollars changing the landscape. there was an article in a hunting magazine, don't remember which one. very much worth reading.
> 
> habitat, habitat, habitat


I believe it was Texas Monthly. The ranch was the Mesa Vista Ranch. From what I read to accomplish a non drought environment T.Boone spent some large money to lay irrigation pipe through out the whole ranch that was designed to mimic natural watering holes. It also goes on to state that no more than four birds are taken out of each covey to keep the birds from spliting up making them more suceptible to dying. only two shots are allowed as well.


----------



## Mg50 (Feb 9, 2009)

I was having a conversation about alfatoxin the other day with my father. We talked about the days before roundup ready and all the geneticlly altered versions out there today. He dosent remeber all the fuss about alfatoxin. When they wanted corn they walked out the back of the house into the field and grabbed a couple ears of corn nobody died. As to the subject on it killing quail maybe maybe not i think it will take a person with a few more degrees than I or the columist for the dallas morning news have. I will tell you this though I have seen lots of beef fed on ATcorn that have went to slaughter with noproblems and most likley made a nice steak for someone so is AT that bad?


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

After reading this I know there are few quail experts here, fire ants sheesh. I know kids that have attended the bobwhite brigades that can answer this. This post has some of the most ignorant answers yet.


----------



## sotol buster (Oct 7, 2007)

In December, I hunted quail in the Oklahoma Panhandle with John Cox, a wildlife biologist who feeds quail, both as a means of supplementing the birds' natural diet against harsh winter weather and to congregate them for hunting. He no longer uses corn or the smaller grain seeds that quail hunters often prefer. 
"I'm feeding the quail with black-eyed peas," Cox said. "Peas work great in an automatic feeder. When you buy them in bulk, they're cheaper than corn


Can you really buy peas cheaper than corn?


----------



## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

*sheesh????*

So you are a quail expert? If so, please enlighten us since you know kids that know why a multimillion dollar industry has basically become non-existent for wild birds, please do. The OP cited an article from a supposed expert who blamed the loss of quail to deer corn. I know for a fact of lands that had quail before the ants became prevalent and now there are few. No deer corn at all. So I am basing my comments off of real life observations, what are you basing yours on?



BEER4BAIT said:


> After reading this I know there are few quail experts here, fire ants sheesh. I know kids that have attended the bobwhite brigades that can answer this. This post has some of the most ignorant answers yet.


----------



## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

BEER4BAIT said:


> After reading this I know there are few quail experts here, fire ants sheesh. I know kids that have attended the bobwhite brigades that can answer this. This post has some of the most ignorant answers yet.


It's one of the many factors with water being probably the most important of all. So, did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? Bring it.


----------



## Kicker (Feb 7, 2005)

BEER4BAIT said:


> After reading this I know there are few quail experts here, fire ants sheesh. I know kids that have attended the bobwhite brigades that can answer this. This post has some of the most ignorant answers yet.


Explain yourself pilgram???


----------



## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

There is some very good information on quail mortality here.

http://www.ag.auburn.edu/aaes/communications/highlights/fall98/quailmortality.html

TH


----------



## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

We don't have fire ants but we do have a healthier than should be fox , skunk, badger and bobcat population. So many foxes that they are seen during the daytime frequently. We have noticed far fewer quail over the last 10 years or so but I always attributed it to how many nest raiders we have. With the wet conditions we got last spring/summer, I did see two different groups of baby quail while on stand. One group of around 12 and another that had almost 20 2" tall buggers. It was entertaining to watch them run from bush to bush one at a time. They are pretty smart when they are little... never all in the open as a covey.


----------



## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

Although my profession is wildlife habitat restoration and wildlife management...

www.AvianQuest.Com

I can tell you that there is much that is still not understood about bobwhite population dynamics.

But I can tell you what the major problems are that are working against bobwhite populations...

1. Habitat destruction
2. Habitat fragmentation
3. Invasive plant species
4. Land use changes
5. Bermuda and other livestock forage grasses

Fire ants have been blamed, but while some early studies indicated that the ants were hurting bobwhites, later studies found that fire ants are pretty much a non-issue with quail.

Predators have always taken their share of quail, especially during the nesting season and again in the fall during the annual hawk migration which brings a lot of Cooper's hawks and they are efficient quail predators.

Habitat fragmentation is one of the most troubling issues. We now know that quail actually migrate great distances in the spring and again in the fall. Bobwhites have been documented to move as much as 30 miles and they don't like breaks in their path. You don't have to destroy all of the quails historic habitat, all you need do is to fragment it with roads, ranchetts, agricultural fields, you name it.

It would be easy to lay the quail population decline off on hunting especially when you see hunters towing trailers filled with herds of well trained dogs and then they cover large areas with ATV's, etc. This coupled with high high daily limits along with an extra day of possession limits and then very long season lengths and it's easy to see how this type of high tech hunting pressure can easily kill out a segment of the local population while running the survivors off the property.

You would have the answer with too much hunting pressure were it not for the fact that quail are declining on properties where there is no hunting taking place at all.


----------



## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Interesting, although the decline we have seen cannot be attributed to roads or hunting pressure. I think it is more of a combination of drought for several years in a row a few times and predation. We are in Junction which isn't a quail mecca but we see far fewer now than we did 27 years ago.

I can see where you are coming from though and it makes perfect sense.


----------



## blackhogdog (Jul 20, 2009)

TYRA said:


> You could take 500 newly hatched chicks out of one of my incubators, put them in a field brooder out in the brush, release them when they feather out, and they will do well, and will even boost the wild genetics...Bottom line is,,,rain at the right times = good bird population.....Over the last 40 yrs, I've seen the quail population come and go, between the wet and dry years on my buddies ranch in South Texas...If it's dry, you will only see a few pairs,,,on a wet year, they will have 4 or 5 cluthes of eggs, and the population explodes...Some will call caca de toro on this, but I've seen it first hand...Yes, it can be done, and can be made to work..........


Has been tried and failed by many many, if you could really do what you claim you would be a millioniare from all of the doctors and lawyers paying you to restock there ranches, I used to install water pipelines and do extreme roller chopping for quail and wildlife on lots of big south texas ranches, there was always somebody claiming they had figured out how to release domestic birds into the wild and they would restock native pastures. They all died very rapidly, they have got to be raised by a native mom hen in the wild are they dont have survrival skills. I wish you could prove it as I myself would buy some and your skills if its like you say. I own a ranch that used to be known as Birddog Heaven and was featured on a Puriena Feed calendar in the 50,s. Now instead of 100 coveys on senderos we see 4 or 5. Wild hogs, fire ants and chemicals and over grazing are to blame.


----------



## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

AvianQuest said:


> Although my profession is wildlife habitat restoration and wildlife management...
> 
> www.AvianQuest.Com
> 
> ...


Good info, interesting too. I'm just here to tell you that the two places I hunt and own and talk about, nothing has changed there since Goodnight came through. Except maybe pesticides, and fire ants. They paved the road, back in the thirties, but that didn't affect the quail. It is still patchy woods, with cattle pastures, some peanuts, wheat, oats etc. Pretty much like it's always been. Except the quail are gone now. This is a huge area, not just my little place. It hasn't changed much not only since I was a kid, but since my Dad was a kid, and he is 80 years old.
But, if it turns out that a quail needs a bigger home range than a mountain lion, I will concede that ants had nothing to do with it.


----------



## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Avian, great information. One of the detremental items noted is bermuda grasses, however in the last 25 or so years, the existence of bermuda as a pasture grass has mostly given way to bahia as the dominant pasture grass in most of Texas. As we all know, bahia is a massive producer of small grain, IMO perfect for birds like quail.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

OK for 5 years of my life I have caught them, put radios on them, performed necropsy on them, vidio taped them, stuffed them, taught classes on habitat on them, relocated them, and helped raise lots of money for the CKWRC in Kingsville. Now whos the pilgram? BTW I know Ray Sasser, hunted with him, partied with him, and cryed with him. I have hunted Quail all my life, in 7 states and 2 countries. I brought it now what?


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

It comes down to Habitat, Habitat, and oh yea HABITAT. Quail are like shrimp of the land,,,,,,,everything wants to eat them. There has always been preditors. Ants please we have vidioed a clutch right after hatch, and you may not know this but a quail like a turkey is hatched on there feet with a tooth that alows them to start eating insects right away, we vidioed quail eating ants as soon as they get close. Some posted about the introduction of non native grasses and they are dead on. Quail like walkin on dirt not thick grass, not even if it make the best seeds. Quail only need water before and during nesting, and to make insects thrive so they can get protien and moisture from eating them in the summer. April rain then a few in June and sept are OK up to the time the shuffle. Around 85% mortality rate is normal. Quail are just getting cramped out of there habitats but they are still there. And yes they can be killed by AT.


----------



## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

Beer4Bait- Good info but I have a question. Why here in Western Montague and Eastern Clay Co. just east of Wichita Falls is it that 15 years ago we were over-run with quail and 8 years ago we had huntable numbers but now the birds are teetering on extinction, maybe 1 covey per 600 to 1000 acres, ask anyone who lives up here on the Red River. And the land is the same as it has been for the last 100 years. There has been zero development around here in the last 30 years, as a matter of fact, the little towns around here have far less population now than they did in the 1950's, and vacant farm houses are everywhere around here and have been for 50 years. The only development close is 20 miles west in Wichita falls and it grew some in the last 20 years, but zero within 20 miles west, 20 miles east, and 50 miles South, and 30 miles North. Nothing here but oil wells drilled in the 1920's, cattle ranches, and farmhouses, and boarded up empty dieing out towns like Petrolia. Hard for me to buy that it is that simple. Any insight as to why it is happening here? We have had pretty normal weather cycles over the last 20 years and we have a few but not alot of fire ants that arrived about 10 years ago. We have alot more hogs than we used to 10 years ago. Most pastures are native grasses, winter fields are wheat. Lots of cover in the area.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

Anyone here know Dale Rollins? John Burk? Scotty Parsons? I would not say I am an expert but I did stay at a Holliday Inn once. Yall just forgot who I am


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

Sea Slug one thing about that area is the ground water table there and north and west. You may start noticing a loss in rio grand turkey also. There are native plants that they must have and placing of the browse and loafing area that have been disturbed by humans, cattle, and the ground water table. I would say they have moved to better habitat. The most important things you must have is a way for the birds to move around. Quail do not fly, they do not have the wings for sustained flight and use the short burst for defence. This may sound dumb but lay your head on the ground and take a look from their world. If it looks like a thicket they wont use it but if it looks like an open floor forest they like it. Bluestem, if you do not have it they will not nest. Cattle like bluestem and can eat it down to where the birds can not use it. Ants are not it period I have hunted in Georgia where we had to watch where we stand because of ants and we had a limmit before brunch. We also had Fire ants on the King Ranch. Quail are the type that if anything disrupts the habitat they will move on. I was part of the crew that brought the habitat back to the pineywoods of east TX in the Angelina NF and the Davy Crocket. They are doing well but the Forrest service works hard to maintain the habitat for quail and eastern turkey.


----------



## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

Bottom line is that we have huge swaths of land where very few habitat factors have changed in since way before quail started this steep decline. Land that used to have great quail populations. Story after story where, "we used to have quail and now we don't, and we haven't changed anything." Well, SOMETHING caused it.
I was born and raised here. I've spent most of 57 years intimate with Texas outdoors. I can go to places where we used to have lots of quail and the old windmill is still there, the briars are still there, the tank is still there, the turkeys and rabbits and pheasants and everything is still there..... except the quail.
We better be glad that shrimp are more resilient than quail. And I'm still not buying that quail need more room to roam that big game. Deer don't even roam 30 miles as was suggested earlier. Helz belz, we had coveys named, for years. "The old barn covey", "the triangle covey", etc. Coveys that were in the same area YEAR AFTER YEAR. We always knew the general area to look for the coveys. Surely others have experienced this on their land. 
So, my point is, if all they need is that area, and they and their offspring are happy there year after year, and the habitat hasn't changed, why are they gone? 
I mean, this is bigger than the cyclical drought, hail, predator/prey rise and fall dynamic. We always understood that. Something is wiping out the quail and I haven't been totally convinced by any of these opinions. Shoot, anyone can see why there aren't any quail on a bermuda farm, but the vast majority of rural Texas isn't much changed since the time there were historical levels of quail and now. I don't think anyone has a definitive answer.
I appreciate all the input. I still say though that I would not want to be a defenseless, half ounce ball of down, fluff and tender meat when the fire ants came to call. Even if I did have that one tooth


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

I dont like to be a man when the fire ants come but thats still not it. Your quail moved they most likely and did not die. You should one day catch a bird and put a radio on it and track it though the fall shuffle, then you will know how far they can range. Quail thrive and still thrive in places where fire ants have been for more than 50 years explain that.


----------



## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

BEER4BAIT said:


> I dont like to be a man when the fire ants come but thats still not it. Your quail moved they most likely and did not die. You should one day catch a bird and put a radio on it and track it though the fall shuffle, then you will know how far they can range. Quail thrive and still thrive in places where fire ants have been for more than 50 years explain that.


 I can't Alex. From what I have seen on tv and in sporting mags though, quail are WAY off their historic levels throughout the southeast.
I would like to know if anyone else has noticed this. Everywhere I have been where fire ants came they seemed exceedingly agressive for the first 5 years or so after they arrived. I've seen it where if you shoot a dove you better pick him up quick or they will be all over it. But then as more years go by, they are still there, but much less aggressive, and less dense. Maybe this would help explain how quail, if they can withstand the initial onslaught, can still hang on where fire ants are present.
I still wonder why all the other native critters, including ground nesting birds, seem to be as plentiful as ever, but the quail are disappearing. What is it about quail that is killing them off? I mean, don't turkeys need water, meadowlarks etal. Don't all creatures need it? How is it that all these other species can be thriving, but quail are gone from much of their traditional range? Are they that weak? 
And if the habitat position is the real reason they are gone, or have simply moved on, then why haven't these other species also vacated the undesireable habitat and moved on? Are quail that specialized?
In salt water, when the basic needs for abundant life decline there becomes dead zones. When the chain breaks, nothing works anymore.
What makes land species any different. If half a state won't support quail, why is it fine with all the other critters?


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

The answer is Habitat, you have to look beyond the ant to see it. You just said other ground nesting birds survive,,,,,,back to what i said the quail unlike the chinese chicken the pheasant is hatched on it feet, ready to run and eat, and eat insects. If you dont take care of the whole chain for quail they move on. The quail made it through the dust bowl days did they not? explain that. I would suggest that every hunter get a copy of the anual reports from CKWRC TX A&M Kingsville. and use it. If hunted cant see the whole picture then they will never have good quail. Here something to ponder for you ant people. Why have they not hurt the field mouse population? the field mouse with other animals has a wet birth with a helpless blind offspring and they do well. TPWD can come out to your place for free and tell you why you dont have quail and I promise you they wont say anything about ants.


----------



## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

BEER4BAIT said:


> The answer is Habitat, you have to look beyond the ant to see it. You just said other ground nesting birds survive,,,,,,back to what i said the quail unlike the chinese chicken the pheasant is hatched on it feet, ready to run and eat, and eat insects. If you dont take care of the whole chain for quail they move on. The quail made it through the dust bowl days did they not? explain that. I would suggest that every hunter get a copy of the anual reports from CKWRC TX A&M Kingsville. and use it. If hunted cant see the whole picture then they will never have good quail. Here something to ponder for you ant people. Why have they not hurt the field mouse population? the field mouse with other animals has a wet birth with a helpless blind offspring and they do well. TPWD can come out to your place for free and tell you why you dont have quail and I promise you they wont say anything about ants.


 Fully half of this state has seen the disapperance or decline of quail. Again I say, most of rural Texas hasn't changed much at all since the days when there were plenty of quail and now, when there is not. habitat hasn't changed, and they are still gone.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

TYRA said:


> Explain yourself pilgram???


Looks like I did dont it city boy?


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

activescrape said:


> Fully half of this state has seen the disapperance or decline of quail. Again I say, most of rural Texas hasn't changed much at all since the days when there were plenty of quail and now, when there is not. habitat hasn't changed, and they are still gone.


Have you read my post? Habitat has changed. Wheat fields, Cattle, etc. We brought the numbers back in parts of East TX with habitat improvement. Like I said get Dale Rollins, he is in your area to come out and explain it to you. Its not ants period and for us that know we just use that as a joke LOL . Like I said I spent a lot of time with quail and some of the most educated biologist in the country. Call TPWD


----------



## Hogie70 (Aug 20, 2009)

BEER4BAIT said:


> Looks like I did dont it city boy?


 
Was that comment necessary? It sounds like your a encyclopedia of useless info to me... JMO...! :texasflag Holiday Inn or Not...


----------



## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Beer bait, you might be right about the ants, but that doesn't excuse your smart arse remark. We all have an opinion and have observed wildlife for years. If you knew so darn much you should have said that at first rather than your pompus sarcastic original remark.


----------



## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

activescrape said:


> I'm just here to tell you that the two places I hunt and own and talk about, nothing has changed there since Goodnight came through.





activescrape said:


> Fully half of this state has seen the disapperance or decline of quail. Again I say, most of rural Texas hasn't changed much at all since the days when there were plenty of quail and now, when there is not. habitat hasn't changed, and they are still gone.


Charles Goodnight would be lost. He wouldn't recognize the trail he once rode.

Back then there was 20 million acres of tall grass prairie kept in check with grazing bison herds and prairie fires. Predators were abundant with wolves, mountain lions, black bears, and even jaguars that kept the ecosystem balanced.

Back then over one million Attwater's Prairie Chickens graced these grasslands, but today less than 1% of that habitat remains and less than 60 Attwater's Prairie Chickens are left in the wild.

I can remember some solid quail hunting where the Astrodome now stands. When that area was cleared off, you could still hear quail for a few years in surrounding blocks of pasture land, but as the habitat became more fractured and broken up, there eventually was silence even though the remaining habitat blocks were still conducive to quail's needs. l

But out where little or no development has taken place, one could spend a lifetime and probably never notice the subtle changes to the landscape that happens. But it does happen and it doesn't take much change to start the downward spiral with some species like bobwhite quail.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

HydraSports said:


> Beer bait, you might be right about the ants, but that doesn't excuse your smart arse remark. We all have an opinion and have observed wildlife for years. If you knew so darn much you should have said that at first rather than your pompus sarcastic original remark.


Relax, sorry I weezed your gig and taxed your harmonious vibes by coming out of the closet being a quail geek by knowing a little about what I was talking about.


----------



## timberrattler (Nov 19, 2008)

What is the quail population of the Attwatter Prairie chicken refuge? They have some of the best quail habitat on the gulf coast where quail are still abundant and have no AT.


----------



## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

Does anyone know of any organizations currently working to save our quail here in Texas and in the Southeastern USA where they are in drastic decline also. I would like to get involved even though I do not usually do anything like that. I used to sit out on the porch at sunrise and hear quail calling that beautiful song and "Bob-White" every direction around. Now I rarely get to hear it anymore. I would hate for it to be gone forever like it is around the homeplace.
Another thing, I do not understand why we cannot lower the bag limits and shorten the season on quail in areas of the State where they are in drastic decline like this area. It just makes no sense to leave bag limits so high and the season so long even if the annual die off is 85%. Just try for a few years and see if it helps them out. Perhaps the 2 to 3% of birds that are taken out of the 15% that carry over could be the difference, every little thing might help out. It makes no sense to me to leave the season and limits the way they are as we watch the last of the Mohecans slowly dissapearing before our eyes. I love to hunt and eat quail, but that is not even an option for us here now. It is more just walking the dogs. We usually shoot pen raised pheasants these days on "Western Style" hunts to make up for missimg the glory days of quail hunting.


----------



## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

More sarcasm? WTH The original point of this thread was corn killing quail by some "expert" who you have identified with, how about debunking his theory as well? I would venture a guess that ants, or grasses or water or hunting pressure or many of the other issues raised are equal to or more harmful to the quail than corn and you haven't attacked that theory. Until you chimed in with your sarcasm the discussion was friendly and informative, see if you can continue that. Lets hear it.
BTW, to say that ants have ZERO impact on quail/any wildlife is totally ridiculous, I have witnessed wet calves who were almost done due to ants and the momma licking as fast as she can, so they can and will kill almost anything.



BEER4BAIT said:


> Relax, sorry I weezed your gig and taxed your harmonious vibes by coming out of the closet being a quail geek by knowing a little about what I was talking about.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

The quail are just moving to better habitat, they are not endangered. If you do not hunt them lower the bag limmit etc you would still have an 85% die off. If you want quail you must have habitat. NWTF and TPWD have programs for upland birds. Scotty Parsons is the man that works for both to promote private land habitat. There was a good article about Scotty and Quail in the last Turkey Call mag from NWTF on quail. I helped Scotty get the east TX Bobwhite Briggade going here in east TX. He is one of the best upland bird guys other than Dr Rollins. Call TPWD and have a biologist survey your land.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

HydraSports said:


> More sarcasm? WTH The original point of this thread was corn killing quail by some "expert" who you have identified with, how about debunking his theory as well? I would venture a guess that ants, or grasses or water or hunting pressure or many of the other issues raised are equal to or more harmful to the quail than corn and you haven't attacked that theory. Until you chimed in with your sarcasm the discussion was friendly and informative, see if you can continue that. Lets hear it.
> BTW, to say that ants have ZERO impact on quail/any wildlife is totally ridiculous, I have witnessed wet calves who were almost done due to ants and the momma licking as fast as she can, so they can and will kill almost anything.


You should look up the word sarcasm? I was being honest, brutal but honest. Discussion was misleading, friendly yes. Now we are going from quail to cows. What studies have you done? OK I will explain that for you, its easy. Cows give birth to a wet offspring that takes a wile to be able to stand making prey to just about everything. A quail clutch (thats chicks) is hatched on their feet. and is off the nest eating with in a minute. out of 6-10 eggs only half will make it the first 48 with or without ants whatever. Some more some less. On a good year one hen can have multiple hatches, depending on rain to make protien.


----------



## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

BEER4BAIT said:


> The quail are just moving to better habitat, they are not endangered. If you do not hunt them lower the bag limmit etc you would still have an 85% die off. If you want quail you must have habitat. NWTF and TPWD have programs for upland birds. Scotty Parsons is the man that works for both to promote private land habitat. There was a good article about Scotty and Quail in the last Turkey Call mag from NWTF on quail. I helped Scotty get the east TX Bobwhite Briggade going here in east TX. He is one of the best upland bird guys other than Dr Rollins. Call TPWD and have a biologist survey your land.


 I do not buy that half of Texas is now unsuitable habitat for quail. Not that much has changed in rural Texas since there were plenty and now. 
Anyway, if they have simply moved on to better habitat then there ought to be somewhere that has twice as many as there was a while ago
Up in Floyd county, where incidentally there are no fire ants and very limited groundwater, there are still plenty of quail. But I couldn't say that all the unhappy bobs from east of Abiline have invaded.


----------



## Boomer (May 24, 2004)

Beer4bait, what I think most people are wanting to hear are some of the suggestions for improving habitat that you keep mentioning but don't provide any actual details. How can we, as private landowners, improve our habitat? Do you have some specific suggestions or some specific articles we can read? You mention bluestem. We are in the process of looking into obtaining and planting some bluestem all around our ranch in McMullen County. Are there some specific guidelines we should follow? That is the kind of information that would be useful to this thread. Our quail population seems to ebb and flow with rainfall. This past year we had a horrible drought and saw virtually no quail while they were incredibly plentiful the year before. We have a quail feeder (milo) for every 300 acres that was hit hard last year but hardly saw a quail at any of them this year. We don't supplement water since we have five large tanks on our property spread well throughout. We don't have cattle at all and we bought the property five years ago and there had been no cattle on the place in the previous five years prior to our acquisition. Also, with the exception of shooting a few quail that come to our house feeder so we can throw a few on the grill, we don't hunt them. However, we do like having them around, they are fun to watch while sitting in the deer stands. Anyway, I think what everyone would like to see are some real suggestions on how we can improve our habitat specifically with quail in mind. We are considering hiring a biologist but haven't reached that state as of yet. We have all the equipment necessary to improve our property just need the right suggestions. Would you mind posting up some useful, specific plans that would help us all out? Thanks in advance.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

Good question Boomer. Here is what I know about you area. If you dont get the rains you will not get a a good hatch which makes the numbers drop. Your curry feeders can become a bufet for avion predation if left in one place for a while. You also mentioned no cattle, cattle if rotated to other pastures can help the quail by eating down vegitation which can get to thick. No cattle is ok. Heres just a hint without looking at your place. Cedar if you have a lot get rid of what you can but keep some on edges of woods and open area. Native Grasses only if it is not to thick rember if you lay your head on the ground and ot looks like an open floor forrest and not a jungle your good. Tanks if they are raised above ground fix them where they run over a little in drought times. Tractors and disk are a great tool to create edges, just long strips through the pasture. This gets pioneer plants to grow like ragweed which quail love. If you plant bluestem disk up the land with lots of strips and plant some sunflower close by. Also look for chickpea and cowpea. Fire is a good way to cut back on thick vegitation its what we use her in east TX. We had a good year last year but we saw just a few this year due to the hatch now prolly fewer with the big snows we had. You have to take the good with the bad when it come to quail. I have seen a lot of "Lease Jockeys come and go from the King Ranch to West TX just looking for the utopia of quail. You may just have a low count do to the dry times and may pick up with the rains. Remember a quail hen can have more than 2 clutches per year on a good year. You can get a fre biologist with the TPWD and now is the time to do it before spring. He will give you a game plan. If you do some food plots for deer, I forgot try to keep it in rows and not thick. Plant peas, browntop, and mix in some sun flower. Hope that helps.


----------



## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

I know sarcasm when I see it, I sure don't need you to define it for me. You were being a pompus turd and still are because you have some experience in this issue. My comparison to calves and quail was to demonstrate the power of a swarm of ants. One doesn't have to have done research or studys to observe wildlife and to have common sense. Are you telling me that when an ant pips the shell, there is no moisture and they are immediately standing and able to defend themselves from the time that the shell is opened enough for an ant to enter. I don't think so. You still didn't address your so called expert buddy and his idea about the corn. Are you afraid that a comparison between what you are espousing as the truth and his lame brain idea are the same? Oh, by the way, his article was published so he must be an expert and know exactly what he is talking about!!!! It reminds me of global warming, bunch of BS.



BEER4BAIT said:


> You should look up the word sarcasm? I was being honest, brutal but honest. Discussion was misleading, friendly yes. Now we are going from quail to cows. What studies have you done? OK I will explain that for you, its easy. Cows give birth to a wet offspring that takes a wile to be able to stand making prey to just about everything. A quail clutch (thats chicks) is hatched on their feet. and is off the nest eating with in a minute. out of 6-10 eggs only half will make it the first 48 with or without ants whatever. Some more some less. On a good year one hen can have multiple hatches, depending on rain to make protien.


----------



## Hogie70 (Aug 20, 2009)

*Sarcasm*

*Noun*

*1*. Witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid".


----------



## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

Beer4Bait- Sorry but I do not buy it. This land has not changed one bit since my grandad was a boy. There were lots of quail here until about 10 to 15 years ago. From who knows when till about 10 years ago they were thick. This has been cattle ranchland since the 1800's. About the same number of cattle are on these places as there were back in Pops day. There has been no development in 50 years around here and we got plenty of water. There has always been 2 wheatfields around here in the winter and we have a 40 acre milo patch most years. Other than that, all this and the nieghbors land around here are native pasture the way its been for a hundred years, with cattle just like its been for a hundred years, and buffaloe before cattle for thousands of years. And only in the last 10 to 15 years did the quail start dissapearing. Like I said thats when fireants showed up around here but we do not have lots of them, just some. I am sure they dont help. Hunting quail with dogs got real popular around here in the 1960's until the 1990's because we had so many birds. It seemed they just gradually got fewer and fewer over the years, then really dropped off about 8 years ago. I think overhunting had an impact, maybe ants, maybe the hog explosion, but there is plenty of good habitat here, same as it ever was and always was really. Bo-de-arks,mesquite,pecan,plums,native prarie grasses. And we have tons of turkey. I just do not buy it. This County aint changed habitat wise, but the quail are going fast.


----------



## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

Sea-Slug said:


> Beer4Bait- Sorry but I do not buy it. This land has not changed one bit since my grandad was a boy..............I just do not buy it. This County aint changed habitat wise, but the quail are going fast.


Are they being beamed up by alien ships?


----------



## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

Why has the population of bobwhite quail declined over 65 percent during the last 20 years throughout the southeastern United States?

Some people believe fire ants are to blame for the declining number of birds. Fire ants will certainly attack a sick chick or in some cases will be attracted to the moisture in cracked eggs. However, newly hatched chicks find fire ants to be an easy source of much needed protein often at a time when other insects haven’t hatched yet. 

Numerous studies and examples demonstrate that in good habitat, quail can thrive in the presence of fire ants and predators. There are also instances where predators may suppress a local bobwhite population. However, predators and fire ants are not responsible for the large-scale decline in bobwhite quail populations that has occurred throughout the United States.

Proof that fire ants aren’t a significant cause of the decline in quail populations lies in the population trends of other birds that use the same habitat as bobwhites. Many of these species of birds are exhibiting long-term downward population trends that are very similar to bobwhites. It is important to note that many of these declining species are not ground nesters like bobwhites, and therefore aren’t subjected to predation by fire ants or by ground based nest predators.

The common link among all these declining species is the changes in the type of grassland or shrubby habitat that contains a diversity of grasses, herbaceous weeds and wildflowers. This type of habitat was once abundant in Texas, but a close look at the habitat within each of these types reveals that significant changes have occurred. Also clean farming practices, lack of prescribed burning, and sod forming grasses in pastures have degraded much of the bobwhite’s habitat. 

Most biologists have concluded that these habitat changes are the primary reason populations of bobwhites and other grassland birds are declining.

Over hunting isn’t the limiting factor because studies have shown that when one tract of land is hunted and an equal tract of land with the same habitat is not hunted, the mortality rate is the same. 

Texas is one of the few states that still has significant quail hunting to be found, but even here over 99% of the Tall Grass Prairie that once covered 20 million acres of our state has been destroyed. How can you expect quail populations not to go into a death spiral when 99% of their best habitat is gone? 

In more marginal habitat areas, vast areas have been converted to residential or commercial use and much more has converted to crop land or range land. The use of pesticides and herbicides by farmers and ranchers has lead to ridding their land of insects and the kinds of weeds, brush and tall, clumpy grasses that quails depend on for survival. Even rangeland that seemingly has gone on untouched, has in fact been changed over time by livestock grazing, lack of regular burns, and succession of vegetation types. Drawing groundwater from aquifers has lowered water tables drastically in most areas which is a major cause of changes in vegetation types. 

When land is plowed and planted in crops, the natural habitat is destroyed. While some crops will furnish waste grain during the harvest, most of the year that farm land is a biological desert for quail. When it was in natural cover, there was an abundance of seeds and insects available year around. At least the small farms of days gone by left fence rows for cover and migration corridors. Today, most small farms have given way to larger and larger farming operations that are often planted from fence to fence with nothing left for wildlife

Fescue and Bermuda grasses widely planted for livestock offer no protection for quail. Quail need bare ground for feeding and dusting and thick grasses like that provided by fescue and Bermuda grasses, makes it tougher for them to travel through and find food. 

Drought, floods, freezes other natural causes can reap a heavy toll on bobwhite populations which is exasperated where quail habitat is of the marginal variety. Even in good habitat areas, these factors may reduce quail populations to a dangerous low. However quail are very resilient which permits them to make dramatic recoveries if their basic habitat requirements are maintained.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

HydraSports said:


> I know sarcasm when I see it, I sure don't need you to define it for me. You were being a pompus turd and still are because you have some experience in this issue. My comparison to calves and quail was to demonstrate the power of a swarm of ants. One doesn't have to have done research or studys to observe wildlife and to have common sense. Are you telling me that when an ant pips the shell, there is no moisture and they are immediately standing and able to defend themselves from the time that the shell is opened enough for an ant to enter. I don't think so. You still didn't address your so called expert buddy and his idea about the corn. Are you afraid that a comparison between what you are espousing as the truth and his lame brain idea are the same? Oh, by the way, his article was published so he must be an expert and know exactly what he is talking about!!!! It reminds me of global warming, bunch of BS.


Ignorant name calling is all you got ? Did I make you cry?

Shut up you are removing all doubt.


----------



## Kicker (Feb 7, 2005)

BEER4BAIT said:


> Looks like I did dont it city boy?


Bwaaaa-haaaa-haaa...city boy,,,not that's funny....You fo shore don't know me....But since you single handedly brought back the habitat for quail in all of East Texas, including the Angalina National Forest and the Davy Crockett, and know some guys that are quail experts, then I guess your are one. An arrogant and full of him self one, to say the least. I think I said, it was habitat and rain which is a big part of it.....Was just stating what I have observed over the years...I was born and raised in Kingsville and spent alot of time on the King Ranch, and many more down in South Texas...Not gonna sit here and churp about who I know, or what I've done......I don't believe the part about the quail move on and leave one place for another...But hell, since you put radios on em and tracked em, you would know better than me...On the 5 big ranches I have hunted my whole life,,,the quail come and go each year depending on the rain, and yes it has to be at the right times...On wet bumper crop years, we blast em up, and on the dry ones we let em pass........Now back to the original topic.....Any body think deer corn is affecting the quail population....My answer is NO!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

AvianQuest said:


> Are they being beamed up by alien ships?


 I don't know where they are going, You tell me since you seem to know more about our land than we do even after we been here 100 years. They seem to have left the county, and like I said, this is still native prarie, same as it was when I was 12 years old flushing 10 coveys a day.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

OK Why is it that grain fed to chickens in production houses here in east TX must be tested AT free? Now we are back to the subject. BTW I was just aswering your "pilgram" question. and BAWWAAAWAA you dont know me.


----------



## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

AvianQuest said:


> Why has the population of bobwhite quail declined over 65 percent during the last 20 years throughout the southeastern United States?
> 
> Some people believe fire ants are to blame for the declining number of birds. Fire ants will certainly attack a sick chick or in some cases will be attracted to the moisture in cracked eggs. However, newly hatched chicks find fire ants to be an easy source of much needed protein often at a time when other insects haven't hatched yet.
> 
> ...


AQ, this is a good post, sounds reasonable. The part that doesn't reconcile though is that 10 years ago on our places, and by the sound of it, most people's places, there were normal levels of quail. So, unless 20 million acres of tall grass prairie and all that poison and farming and ranching just sprung up in the last 10 years, then I still have questions about what happened in the last decade for the quail to suddenly vanish. Ten years is a blip on the rdar compared to how long quail flourished here. It would make sense to me that if the scenario painted by your post was "it" then the die off would have gradually occured since the first cattle and plows showed up. But it didn't. We had great quail populations right up until 10 years ago or so. Urban centers don't cut it either. Sure, no quail in city park, but as soon as you clear the city limits it endless country. Another thing that has me stumped. This phenomenum is occuring in so many geographical regions, piney woods, cross timbers, rolling plains etc. The farmng, agricultural, ranching etal. practices vary from region to region, but quail nontheless, suffer everywhere. It is so widespread, from pine trees/black gumbo to rocky/sandy prickly pear, and so on. What is the common denominator? Just to say habitat is so broad brushed. I don't think there was ever much tall grass prairie in east Texas.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

AvianQuest said:


> Are they being beamed up by alien ships?


.

LOL be careful Avian, you may offend others and be called names. LOL I tried to give you a green but I have to reload from the last one.


----------



## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Answer the question about your expert buddy and about the quail hatchlings or you shut up. Is he right or not? You are spouting off all of this **** like you are an expert, spout off about your buddy and whether he is right. Please, a punk like you can't even hold my light, much less make me cry.



BEER4BAIT said:


> Ignorant name calling is all you got ? Did I
> make you cry?
> 
> Shut up you are removing all doubt.


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

HydraSports said:


> Answer the question about your expert buddy and about the quail hatchlings or you shut up. Is he right or not? You are spouting off all of this **** like you are an expert, spout off about your buddy and whether he is right. Please, a punk like you can't even hold my light, much less make me cry.


More names yep all you got.


----------



## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

BEER4BAIT said:


> More names yep all you got.


 Come on Alex, you gotta ask yourself how you managed to cross so many people on this thread. Maybe it's not, "everybody else." It is obvious you have spent some time loving quail, but as is so often the case, it's not always what you say, it's how you say it.
However, if it was your intent to come off as arrogant, job well done!


----------



## BEER4BAIT (Jun 24, 2005)

activescrape said:


> Come on Alex, you gotta ask yourself how you managed to cross so many people on this thread. Maybe it's not, "everybody else." It is obvious you have spent some time loving quail, but as is so often the case, it's not always what you say, it's how you say it.
> However, if it was your intent to come off as arrogant, job well done!


I only crossed 2 or 3. Maybe I should have been a little easier. .


----------



## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

BEER4BAIT said:


> .
> 
> LOL be careful Avian, you may offend others and be called names. LOL I tried to give you a green but I have to reload from the last one.


You wont offend me. Im used to dealing with smartmouths. My dad always said arrogance and ignorance were partners.


----------



## jimk (May 28, 2004)

You know, this is an interesting discussion...but some of you really need lessons in "getting along with your neighbors." It really detracts from the message.


----------



## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Beer Bait, I am done with this subject. Seems funny to me that a guy with 5 years of research can even pretend to know a subject well enough to call others comments ignorant. Sounds more like a keyboard jockey to me, one that won't say the same things in a parking lot somewhere.


----------



## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

activescrape said:


> AQ, this is a good post, sounds reasonable. The part that doesn't reconcile though is that 10 years ago on our places, and by the sound of it, most people's places, there were normal levels of quail. So, unless 20 million acres of tall grass prairie and all that poison and farming and ranching just sprung up in the last 10 years, then I still have questions about what happened in the last decade for the quail to suddenly vanish. Ten years is a blip on the rdar compared to how long quail flourished here. It would make sense to me that if the scenario painted by your post was "it" then the die off would have gradually occured since the first cattle and plows showed up. But it didn't. We had great quail populations right up until 10 years ago or so. Urban centers don't cut it either. Sure, no quail in city park, but as soon as you clear the city limits it endless country. Another thing that has me stumped. This phenomenum is occuring in so many geographical regions, piney woods, cross timbers, rolling plains etc. The farmng, agricultural, ranching etal. practices vary from region to region, but quail nontheless, suffer everywhere. It is so widespread, from pine trees/black gumbo to rocky/sandy prickly pear, and so on. What is the common denominator? Just to say habitat is so broad brushed. I don't think there was ever much tall grass prairie in east Texas.


I agree with you. Same here in our area. Nothing has changed in 50 years but the quail started dissapearing about 10 years ago. The only things different I have noticed in the last 10 or 15 years besides the quail dying out are
1- 4 or 5 times as many hawks, maybe 10 times as many as there used to be here. I do not know why.
2-Fire Ants-Showed up about 10 years ago. But we do not have a huge problem, it is cold up here and keeps them in check. Im not sure if they contributed or not.
3-Hogs, we have 5 times as many hogs as we used to, but we have had some for 50 years.
4-WE have alot more turkey now than when I was a boy. Maybe 2 or 3 times as many.
These are the only things I see different besides the quail vanishing. Thanks for everyone who contributed to this thread, I thought it was interesting stuff.


----------



## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

Sea-Slug said:


> I agree with you. Same here in our area. Nothing has changed in 50 years but the quail started dissapearing about 10 years ago. The only things different I have noticed in the last 10 or 15 years besides the quail dying out are
> 1- 4 or 5 times as many hawks, maybe 10 times as many as there used to be here. I do not know why.
> 2-Fire Ants-Showed up about 10 years ago. But we do not have a huge problem, it is cold up here and keeps them in check. Im not sure if they contributed or not.
> 3-Hogs, we have 5 times as many hogs as we used to, but we have had some for 50 years.
> ...


 I may be a little hard headed about it, but I honestly haven't heard anything I can rest with that really explains it. Also, I hate to think of quail as such a sensitive species. Up in the panhandle where I have hunted pheasant for the last 35 years I have seen them cope not only with the hail, drought and predators, but also the new and different pesticides that come along every so often. These they use just about when the chicks hatch. So, not only does it kill the insects the chicks eat, but as I understand it the chicks can walk along picking up the dying grasshoppers etc. and inadvertantly poison themselves. And talk about farming fence to fence. We used to hunt the old falling down farmhouses, there were always birds there. But most of them have been buried and are farmland now. That left playa lake bottoms and they are always good. Then CRP (leave out land) came on big time. It's not really all that good. The grass is super thick. They do get in there but it also allowed predators places to hide, so I think that just about balances out. Anyway, the pheasants are still doing good. So are the quail though, up there. 
So, I can come up with a logical rebuttal to nearly every explanation to why the quail are gone or going fast everywhere east of Abiline. I think the jury is still out. It bums me out too. I never thought I would live to see a species die out in my lifetime. The call of a bob in the spring, that chatter they make as they travel in a covey, the rush you get when you bust a covey, I thought it would always be here.


----------



## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

activescrape said:


> I may be a little hard headed about it, but I honestly haven't heard anything I can rest with that really explains it. Also, I hate to think of quail as such a sensitive species. Up in the panhandle where I have hunted pheasant for the last 35 years I have seen them cope not only with the hail, drought and predators, but also the new and different pesticides that come along every so often. These they use just about when the chicks hatch. So, not only does it kill the insects the chicks eat, but as I understand it the chicks can walk along picking up the dying grasshoppers etc. and inadvertantly poison themselves. And talk about farming fence to fence. We used to hunt the old falling down farmhouses, there were always birds there. But most of them have been buried and are farmland now. That left playa lake bottoms and they are always good. Then CRP (leave out land) came on big time. It's not really all that good. The grass is super thick. They do get in there but it also allowed predators places to hide, so I think that just about balances out. Anyway, the pheasants are still doing good. So are the quail though, up there.
> So, I can come up with a logical rebuttal to nearly every explanation to why the quail are gone or going fast everywhere east of Abiline. I think the jury is still out. It bums me out too. I never thought I would live to see a species die out in my lifetime. The call of a bob in the spring, that chatter they make as they travel in a covey, the rush you get when you bust a covey, I thought it would always be here.


 One other thing I did not list that changed is the automatic deer feeders came along 20 years ago. That takes us back to the beginning of the thread. Maybe they do contribute by making ambush areas for predators and aflotoxin danger as well.


----------



## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

Sea-Slug said:


> One other thing I did not list that changed is the automatic deer feeders came along 20 years ago. That takes us back to the beginning of the thread. Maybe they do contribute by making ambush areas for predators and aflotoxin danger as well.


It's a double edged sword in that it offers extra feed for the birds, but it's also an attraction for predators and there is always the chance for poisoning the birds if it isn't done right.

However, this only occurs in a certain small radius around each feeder. When you consider how many feeders are operating in habitat that has quail and multiply that times the area that each feeder covers, then this accounts for such an insignificant percentage of the total quail range that it is a non-issue for the population as a whole.


----------



## H2 (Jan 11, 2005)

Hogie70 said:


> Was that comment necessary? It sounds like your a encyclopedia of useless info to me... JMO...! :texasflag Holiday Inn or Not...


Speaking of useless info.....


----------



## nhampton (Aug 8, 2007)

I think most people will agree that quail numbers are declining. This year, mosly because of the drought, number declined radically. They are a fragile species that depends on large recruitment numbers to sustain themselves. I don't believe that there is any one cause for their decline but probably multiple causes. I just want to mention a couple that might be overlooked.

Inseticides Not that they are directly hurting the quail, but quail chicks survival rate seems to depend on the amount of protein they have access to. Insects are one of their best sources.

Predators Not the large ones, but *****, possums, and skunks. Thirty years ago ***** were pursued aggresively for their pelts. Now, with PETA and the low price of pelts, nobody bothers. Don't know about y'all, but I get game cam pics with as many as 9 ***** in them. While these are no threat to fully fledged birds, nests and chicks are very vulnerable.


----------



## Hogie70 (Aug 20, 2009)

H2 said:


> Speaking of useless info.....


With all due respect..... **** You...


----------



## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

AvianQuest said:


> It's a double edged sword in that it offers extra feed for the birds, but it's also an attraction for predators and there is always the chance for poisoning the birds if it isn't done right.
> 
> However, this only occurs in a certain small radius around each feeder. When you consider how many feeders are operating in habitat that has quail and multiply that times the area that each feeder covers, then this accounts for such an insignificant percentage of the total quail range that it is a non-issue for the population as a whole.


 I would add that personally I have spent thousands of hours watching feeders. I have seen my share of quail at the feeders but I have never seen a predator jack with them. I wonder how many people have actually seen it happen. I wouldn't think it's a big contributor to the decline. another thing. Won't waste grain, like wheat and milo, sour in the field? I know acorns sure do. Will it grow AT naturally?


----------



## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

activescrape said:


> AQ, this is a good post, sounds reasonable. The part that doesn't reconcile though is that 10 years ago on our places, and by the sound of it, most people's places, there were normal levels of quail. So, unless 20 million acres of tall grass prairie and all that poison and farming and ranching just sprung up in the last 10 years, then I still have questions about what happened in the last decade for the quail to suddenly vanish. Ten years is a blip on the radar compared to how long quail flourished here. It would make sense to me that if the scenario painted by your post was "it" then the die off would have gradually occured since the first cattle and plows showed up. But it didn't. We had great quail populations right up until 10 years ago or so. Urban centers don't cut it either. Sure, no quail in city park, but as soon as you clear the city limits it endless country. Another thing that has me stumped. This phenomenum is occuring in so many geographical regions, piney woods, cross timbers, rolling plains etc. The farmng, agricultural, ranching etal. practices vary from region to region, but quail nontheless, suffer everywhere. It is so widespread, from pine trees/black gumbo to rocky/sandy prickly pear, and so on. What is the common denominator? Just to say habitat is so broad brushed.
> 
> I don't think there was ever much tall grass prairie in east Texas.


Oh yes, there used to be vast areas of tall grass prairie in east Texas. Those were the places that got plowed first because they were easy.

You've probably heard of the Katy Prairie down here. It was all tall grass prairie originally. Now Houston and the suburbs and towns to the west cover most of it and the rest is farm and ranch land.

The Saums Prairie was one of the remaining stands of original prairie, and now it has been destroyed forever...



> This is, by expert account, one of the finest patches of pristine prairie left in West Harris County, part of the greater Katy Prairie that once rippled across a thousand square miles between the Brazos River and Houston. More than the sum of its parts, Saums Road is a rare whole package: a mature bit of what once was the region's characteristic landscape, now part of a suburban development hotspot.
> 
> http://www.tpwmagazine.com/archive/2009/feb/ed_2/index.phtml


The quail population has been on decline nationwide for over 40 years. You are just noticing it in your area because the birds have been able to hold out longer.

There were 31 million bobwhites 40 years ago and now we are down to 5.5 million.

Many of the bird species that use the same habitat as bobwhites are exhibiting long-term downward population trends that are very similar to bobwhites. It is important to note that many of these declining species are not ground nesters like bobwhites, and therefore aren't subjected to predation by fire ants or by ground based nest predators.

Do you see many meadow larks anymore? They used to be thick most everyplace where there was quail. Yeah, we got them on the properties I manage, and quail too, but it's a constant fight to keep the habitat from following the same downward spiral as surrounding areas.

The common link among all these declining species is the changes in the type of grassland or shrubby habitat that contains a diversity of grasses, herbaceous weeds and wildflowers. This type of habitat was once abundant in Texas, but little still exists, and what still does exist has been changed even though most landowners never know it.

Most biologists have concluded that these habitat changes are the primary reason populations of bobwhites and other grassland birds are declining.


----------



## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

The Audubon Society is a "go to" reference for all birds. Here's what they have to say about bobwhite quail...

Conservation Issues & Efforts:

*Threats*: The disappearance of suitable bobwhite habitat, due to large-scale agriculture, intensive pine-plantation forestry, and development, is the most dominant threat to the long-term survival of these common grassland birds. Fire ants, which compete for food, attack nests, and provoke humans to spray pesticides, may also be playing some smaller role in the decline.

*Outlook*: The Northern Bobwhite Conservation Initiative, formed to help bobwhites and other grassland birds, is beginning to reverse declines of bobwhite habitat.

What Can You Do:

*Preserve Farmlands*: Promote strong conservation provisions in the federal farm bill, especially the Conservation Reserve Program (CRP), which pays farmers to keep marginal farmlands idle and supports millions of acres of good bird habitat. Contact your county's office of the Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) or Farm Service Agency (FSA) to find out how to increase the number of acres devoted to helping birds dependent on farmlands.

*Save Grasslands*: Be proactive with your local, state and national officials to increase the amount of habitat that can support breeding grassland birds, in particular support smart growth and protection of open space. Promote late mowing (preferably early August in most parts of the country) in hayfields and healthy public and private ranchlands devoted to livestock grazing. Urge parks to devote large parcels to prairie restoration. Volunteer at an Important Bird Area).

*Support Sustainable Forests*: Push for the protection, restoration and expansion of large forest blocks to sustain the full range of forest-loving species, especially the Canadian boreal forest where logging, mining and drilling are taking their toll. Back active management (including burns) to meet specific habitat requirements on government-owned lands and incentives for active forest management on private lands. Promote deer management that allows for the maintenance of forest understory plants.

*Stop Invasive Species*: Work with county agricultural officials to help fight the spread of non-native annual grasses. Support strong federal, regional, state, and local regulations and research and management to combat non-native, invasive species.

http://stateofthebirds.audubon.org/CBID/profile.php?id=1


----------

