# Rules when approaching floaters?



## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

Howdy,

Had a Realtime-Navigator call me this afternoon - they were out at the Noble Clyde Boudreaux and were told by the rig operator not to approach any closer than 1/2 mile. Needless to say, after coming all the way out there (156 NM) and not be able to fish close to the structure, they were not happy. I had not heard of this happening to anyone fishing that particular rig, but I have heard of other rigs that had approach minimums.

I asked him if they had hailed the floater prior to arriving to give them a heads up and he said that they did. I didn't know what to tell him to do.

What is the law (if any) concerning approaching these structures?

How can they enforce these rules?

Thanks in advance,

Tom Hilton


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## fathom lures (Jan 27, 2007)

Its no different than being warned off from a dredge, pipe barge or other burdened working vessel.


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## Snagged (May 21, 2004)

That happened tous on our last trip.


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## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

I have heard that they will not let you close to the rig when they have a submarine down doing repairs or other work.


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## Snagged (May 21, 2004)

Somebody is getting picky on that platform.


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## STxFisherman (Jan 15, 2006)

Perhaps they are getting ready to move the rig....


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## jt2hunt (May 13, 2006)

Someone said they are having some flare ups or something and that is why the noble is being not so noble.

it sucks, because there is no other rig nearby. 

there used to be someone that posted pics from the rig and they were catching tuna.

maybe they want all the tuna for the rigworkers.


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*floaters*



fathom lures said:


> Its no different than being warned off from a dredge, pipe barge or other burdened working vessel.


No, there is a difference. This is not a moving vessel...it's a rig. Some rigs you can fish near with no problem, and sometimes they won't let you get near.

We had the same thing happen to us when fishing the Ocean Star about 80 miles south of venice on the Mattiduke summer before last. We moved over and fished another floater nearby with no problems.

Are there any specific laws pertaining to approach minimums? In other words, say if your radio mysteriously quit working and you couldn't hear them, what could happen?

Tom


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## Tankfxr (Dec 26, 2007)

There is a good chance they are giving that warning for your own safety. Or like what was said there may be a ROV in the water. Just seems to me that they have hundreds of millions of dollars tied up in those rigs and if they ask you to steer clear maybe the right thing to do would be to respect that and not turn off your raido. Alot of things that can be going on at one time on those things and alot of things that can happen all at once.


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## willyhunting (Apr 21, 2006)

Tom,

Being that these are Federally regulated facilities operating under 33CFR165 Marine Security regs., ignoring them would not be wise. You will be reported as having 'violated' their safety zone and will be detained or inconvienced by USCG to say the least. They are, as Tankfxr said, most likely warning you off for your own safety. 

Who knows, they may be dealing with Hydorgen Sulfide or something worse.


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## jt2hunt (May 13, 2006)

you could get in there and catch your fish. i assume it would take the guard about four hours to get there, but i wouldn't want to **** em off that much. 

the ocean star is different because you can cruise over to gunnison without issue.

at the boudreaux, where are you going to go??????
is there a telephone at the rig you could call in advance?


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*floaters*

Howdy,
I surely would not recommend something that would be unsafe or illegal. I just seem to remember some regulations a while back that specifically delienated certain platforms that had security zones, what types of vessels, etc.

Tom


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## Formula4Fish (Apr 24, 2007)

When we first pulled up by Noble Clyde on Friday evening Feb 1, they told us we had to stay one mile away. We did for a while, then gradually edged closer and closer. Finally early Saturday morning the told us if we didn't keep at least a mile distance between us, they would report us to the Coast Guard. We left there with about 20 Yellowfin in the box.

We boogied north to fish Diana Saturday evening and they told us they didn't care how close we got, and wished us good luck.

Seis Tuna 2008


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## jt2hunt (May 13, 2006)

hey formula, how the heck are you!

there were a bunch more yft at noble than Diana, though!


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## hog (May 17, 2006)

I wouldnt think the CG would go all the way out there for a "to close" Or "I told'm to stay a 1/2 mile away" violation.

BUT, I do think if a boats ID numbers were called into the CG that the boat, its captain and probably passengers would be heavily ticketed when they returned to port.

I think it was a safety reason this time and not them being horses rears, either that or some butt went out there and "P'd" them off on a previous fishin trip.

JMO--all speculation on my part, Ive never been there.

Hog


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## Mako Mike (Jun 8, 2006)

willyhunting said:


> Who knows, they may be dealing with Hydorgen Sulfide or something worse.


Those were my thoughts. I would ask for the rank of the guy saying you need to stay off. Might also be a wise idea to check with the Coast Guard as well prior to going out.

I would simply ask why the standoff distance and allow them to explain, rather than speculating. I say ask the guy on the other ends credentials because I have also recently been in the same hotel as a conference of platform guys doing some training. I bought a few a drink or two and we swapped stories. Sometimes they have problems with gas (H2S - aka Hydrogen Sulfide which will kill you instantly if you inhale it), needing space due to divers or ROV's doing repair or inspections. Sometimes they would do it just to spite someone who charged one of them too much (in their opinions) for fishing their own dern rig on a charter. Finally I heard a story of a tool boss who refused to let anyone fish near his rig, no explanation as to why, would just cite BS excuses. One of the corporate guys one day took his personal hatteras out to the rig and wasn't allowed near it on one of these instances, he came up anyway, had his Captain drop him off chewed out the guy (was kicked off his own rig, something about the tool boss having the authority). The tool boss was ultimately fired because of this incident.

Moral? There may be a reason, there may not be. I would check with the Coast Guard about it. Tell them your fear of getting there and they just don't want anyone near, so your $2k expense to get there is blown for nothing. See what they say. Imma call myself if I can remember tomorrow.


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## bluewatertx (Aug 31, 2005)

You should always hail before you approach. I've only had to do this one time, and that's because I've only fished one floater (that being hover-diana). But quite frankly if you get a response like your customer did, you radio back "with all due respect sir your company policy is not the LAW and does not dictate our rights... We will stay out of your way and operation as best be can, we've got expensive equipment as well that we do want to do damage to"... then you fish.


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## Matt06 (Dec 25, 2005)

I'm pretty sure there is a homeland security law that deals with this...


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## bluewatertx (Aug 31, 2005)

Give me a lead as to what you think the law is and I will look it up. I am not currently aware of any law that would directly affect a civilian fisherman approaching a stationary oil rig, but I certainly have no authority in maritime law and could very well be wrong. I'm a 3rd year law student and would be more than happy to post it on hear, for everyones benefit. I have free access to Westlaw and Lexus Nexus. BTW the quoted answer I gave you is courtesy of Capt. John Uhr of the Seay Goddess, I spoke to him when our boat was dry docked next theirs at the Fulton yacht yard, and he told he had a problem approaching that very rig, and that was how he responded. Ended up catching 2 blues that day and got as close as they wanted.


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## Calmday (Jul 7, 2005)

bluewatertx said:


> You should always hail before you approach. I've only had to do this one time, and that's because I've only fished one floater (that being hover-diana). But quite frankly if you get a response like your customer did, you radio back "with all due respect sir your company policy is not the LAW and does not dictate our rights... We will stay out of your way and operation as best be can, we've got expensive equipment as well that we do want to do damage to"... then you fish.


These threads seem to be popping up more and more. If your response is *"with all due respect sir your company policy is not the LAW and does not dictate our rights... We will stay out of your way and operation as best be can, we've got expensive equipment as well that we do want to do damage to"* when hailed you could be putting peoples lives, the rig and or your boat in danger. There are many many legitimate reasons that they would want you to stay away. Drilling rigs tend to have more activity going on than production platforms but at times there is activities going on at either place that can be dangerous. There can be ROVs or divers in the water. They could be drilling through a gas pocket or be taking a gas kick, working with explosives that can be set off with certain radio frequencies, They could be fracking the well which uses extremely high pressure, H2S (Yes we do have H2S in the deepwater GOM especially after a few years of water injection). If a MODU (Mobile offshore drilling unit) is having trouble holding position they might have to cut loose. The deepwater drilling rigs are almost all DP so it is a safety hazard just having lures drug around there thrusters. If you don't honor there request you could be putting good men's lives at risk including your own.


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## Crossroads (May 21, 2004)

I thought any manned rig has a 500 meter (near 1/2 mile) exclusion zone unless the rig operator permitted entry. I remember this being a result of Homeland Security studies of the target value of manned rigs. Of course this rule, if it is in force only applies to fishermen because a terrorist is probably not going to ask permission. It's possible that I'm only remembering a proposal.


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## awesum (May 31, 2006)

*Sour gas ...*

During my tenure as a logistics manager for a major oil company the only area I recall that we found occasional encounters with sour gas was out in the Matagorda blocks. However, surely it is there in other locations.

When this happens the game changes. New safety measures go into effect. I would usually have to jump on a 412 with additional safety equipment to take to the rig.

Been too long ago for me to remember though. hwell:


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## Calmday (Jul 7, 2005)

There is a lot of H2S in the Gulf. We (Chevron) spend a tone of money to deal with it. Areas that don't have it originally can start producing it after a few years of water injection which is very common in the deepwater GOM.


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## fathom lures (Jan 27, 2007)

*rules of the road*



hilton said:


> No, there is a difference. This is not a moving vessel...it's a rig. Some rigs you can fish near with no problem, and sometimes they won't let you get near.
> 
> We had the same thing happen to us when fishing the Ocean Star about 80 miles south of venice on the Mattiduke summer before last. We moved over and fished another floater nearby with no problems.
> Are there any specific laws pertaining to approach minimums? In other words, say if your radio mysteriously quit working and you couldn't hear them, what could happen?
> ...


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## Reel Screamers (Jan 12, 2007)

We always found it helpful to stop by Hooters on the way and talk one of the girls into being a deckhand.

We were hooked to a shallower platform one day when a crew boat came up and asked us to leave. We had a scantly clad young lady on the boat. The platform quickly hailed the crew boat and informed him that he was on the clock and unless he had a problem on the boat, they were in no hurry for the supplies. We looked up and the entire crew was hanging off the rail, watching every move she made. We stayed another 30 minutes, she was a sport about it. I bet they all slept on their backs that night.

The Hooters part is a suggestion, the short story is true............


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## jt2hunt (May 13, 2006)

is there a phone number you could call before making the trek out to Boudreaux?
/


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## James Howell (May 21, 2004)

*girls*

First time I met Bill Butler, we were prefishing for SKA Nationals, my partner was trying to pry out where the big slimies were, but I asked him " how was it with those girls from "Fish ON!" on the boat? Y'all only caught one tuna on the show?" He said the rig manager called him on the radio and told him to leave, because the **** rig had completely shut down, every guy was on the rail with binoculars checking out those itty-bitty bikinis, so even that plan can backfire occasionally .



Reel Screamers said:


> We always found it helpful to stop by Hooters on the way and talk one of the girls into being a deckhand.
> 
> We were hooked to a shallower platform one day when a crew boat came up and asked us to leave. We had a scantly clad young lady on the boat. The platform quickly hailed the crew boat and informed him that he was on the clock and unless he had a problem on the boat, they were in no hurry for the supplies. We looked up and the entire crew was hanging off the rail, watching every move she made. We stayed another 30 minutes, she was a sport about it. I bet they all slept on their backs that night.
> 
> The Hooters part is a suggestion, the short story is true............


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## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

*Notice to Mariner*

I unfortunate had to do a bunch of reading on this exact topic due to the loss of my 42' Ocean at Nansen, and what I learned is this....The Driller, or The OIM has the exclusive responsibility to protect the rig. If He has something going on with or around the rig that poses a hazard he has to issue a *" Notice to Mariner "*. If this " Notice to Mariner " is enforce at the time your trying to get close to the rig than you better git outside the 500 meeter perimeter. If there has been " *NO* " Notice To Mariner issued than they can yell all they want, but if your boat is under the 100' limit, and you can operate your vessel safely it's open water free for all to use.

This is part of the CFR found under the area on Permanent Man Made Islands. I'll have to get the book back from my Atty. to point out the exact Chapter and number, but I do believe this to be correct.

I hope this helps.

*MB*


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*floaters*

MB,
This is the type of info that I was looking for - I remember there being a size limit on the boat, and specific conditions on whether or not you could approach the rig - that makes sense. I will see about posting any NTM info that is pertinent to the floaters each week.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you lose your 42' Ocean at Nancen?

Thanks,
Tom Hilton


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## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

Good morning Tom,

Go to my member profile and read my First post here. That my answer your question.

*MB*


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## surfwalker (Jul 14, 2006)

Well I know there use to be TX public waterway law that basicly said any public waterway can be accessed by ANYONE ANYTME, but I posted a comment to another thread, and was told with the homeland securitys act post 911 they could run you off????? I would really like to now if thats true or not. In TX any public water way can be used by anyone anytime. This only excludes land locked water, if any part of the water way is accessable to an individual then it is a public waterway and there for anyone can use it anytime, this new post 911 law may counter that original law/ruling. Does anyone have a concrete answer?? I dont believe they can run you off rigs or anywhere, they may be able to say, enter at your own risk, underwater workers or explosives or dumping etc etc, but to the best of my knoledge "post 911 may make the difference" they can not make you leave or stay a certain distance from anything in public waters...I would love to know for sure, and I see these type of post all the time, so im sure alot of others would love to know for sure what the answer is. Can anyone say for sure??


hilton said:


> No, there is a difference. This is not a moving vessel...it's a rig. Some rigs you can fish near with no problem, and sometimes they won't let you get near.
> 
> We had the same thing happen to us when fishing the Ocean Star about 80 miles south of venice on the Mattiduke summer before last. We moved over and fished another floater nearby with no problems.
> 
> ...


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

surfwalker said:


> Well I know there use to be TX public waterway law that basicly said any public waterway can be accessed by ANYONE ANYTME, but I posted a comment to another thread, and was told with the homeland securitys act post 911 they could run you off????? I would really like to now if thats true or not. In TX any public water way can be used by anyone anytime. This only excludes land locked water, if any part of the water way is accessable to an individual then it is a public waterway and there for anyone can use it anytime, this new post 911 law may counter that original law/ruling. Does anyone have a concrete answer?? I dont believe they can run you off rigs or anywhere, they may be able to say, enter at your own risk, underwater workers or explosives or dumping etc etc, but to the best of my knoledge "post 911 may make the difference" they can not make you leave or stay a certain distance from anything in public waters...I would love to know for sure, and I see these type of post all the time, so im sure alot of others would love to know for sure what the answer is. Can anyone say for sure??


Yes Surfwalker, I can tell you for sure. The legal concept you are referring to is that of navigable waterways which, effectively, states that if you CAN (are physically able to) run a boat in it, that you MAY (legally) boat in it. Another legal precept holds that naturally occurring waters are the property of the people of the state of Texas and the natural resources found therein are, as well. Both are held IN TRUST by the STATE for the people.

Now try to get your head around this concept.

The State (and the Fed. Govt. in certain situations) are the CARETAKERS of these resources and may (and do) impose legally valid restrictions, regulations, rules of the road, etc.

Simply because the public owns navigable waters and boating is allowed on them does not mean any ignorant ******* can load up a 10' johnboat with half a dozen of his kids and three cases of beer and go boat it and there is nothing the "gummint" can do about it. There IS and they DO.

Production and drilling platforms are legally empowered to force you to stay away a reasonable distance. There is a way they must do it, read mbs post. I guarantee you do not want to tie up under an escape pod, or when divers are down, etc.


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## surfwalker (Jul 14, 2006)

Well I knew you didnt want to be under an escape pod, but I wasnt sure if they could say keep a 1/2 mile or 1 mile distance?? I understand if they have a dangerous situation or a sub down and they tell you this is a dangerous area and ask you in a polite way to please stay back, or yourself and craft and craft in danger. And any reasonable prudent person would heed the warning and leave, but it souns like alot of the rig operaters are just being A-holes and running folks off for S**Ts and giggles, I remember fishing a rig some years back for AJs we would back up to the rig hook up and drag the fish out before it could rapp us in the rig, "so we were not tied or touching them at all" and the A-holes on the rig were trying to spit on us, drop welding rods on our heads, just being stupid ******* dumba**"s and it sounds like thats the case hear, so whats the ruling on that?? Can they just be pricks because they want too?? Some of those rigs take a while to get to gas money time and we're not on their property or messing with their stuff or hurting anything..So i think the dont mess with me and we wont mess with you policy should apply even by state and federal law..


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## Crossroads (May 21, 2004)

It would be nice to understand the rules if there really are any.


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## POCMako (Jul 26, 2005)

*rigs*

last year we were on step headed to Boomvang could see BV in the far distance when someone came over the radio from BV and told us to identify ourselves and asked why our gps was locked in on them. i was shocked and surprised on the gps cord's -how did they know we were locked on them?? been a million x's never had that call? on another note- if an ROV is in the water around a rig- we always get a call explaining why not to come close- never had them just tell us to beat it! few times they were not very nice--AT ALL! if i was stuck out there with no woman/booze/freedom -i might be a little cranky!!!! just my .02


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Valkyrie said:


> It would be nice to understand the rules if there really are any.


Yes, it really would. BUT if you're looking for something that says - "pleasure boats may approach to within a quarter mile but may not come closer if warned off . . ."

I don't think you'll EVER find any. MARSEC (Maritime Security) regulations, basically AS FAR AS I CAN DETERMINE, require the owner/operator of a platform or vessel to develop a security plan, have it approved (or maybe it's "accepted"), and have an individual in charge of it (security). It is meant to be adequate to answer a threat, and probably a more rigorous response to a threat would be required further from law enforcement/coast guard help.

The deployment of ARMED WATERBORNE SECURITY personnel in order to deter a threat is specifically mentioned in the federal regulations.

SOOO. I may be FULL OF BEANS, BUT, I believe that the owner operator of a remote facility like Noble WITHIN the PROVISIONS OF THE MARSEC PLAN, can do WHAT IS NECESSARY to protect the facility from a threat. This includes armed deterrence.

In short, if you ignore them and continue to approach or refuse to leave I think they can shoot you, sink your boat, eat your children, whatever.

That's what i THINK from reading the Code of Federal Regulations. Sure could be mistaken. But think what a disaster a couple of good sized boats, and maybe a helicopter or a fixed wing airplane, could cause even 50 miles out in the gulf.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Levelwind said:


> ..........But think what a disaster a couple of good sized boats, and maybe a helicopter or a fixed wing airplane, could cause even 50 miles out in the gulf.


And after they warn off the boat/plane or helicopter full of real terriosts I guess the terriost will go home and try another day when noone is paying attention?

Unless the rig is heavily armed they don't stand a chance to stop an terriost attack. I guess the Feds have never heard of "suicide bombers". After they have made their attack there won't be any one to catch and prosecute.

Another senseless law/regulation!


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Yeah I checked the Code of Federal Regs and there is no specific restricted areas for navigation other than some military grounds and some special events like ocean boat races ... some mention of closing channels for dredging or collisions. I was looking for USCG lists of restricted areas around refineries and chemical plants but no dice ... must be the MARSEC plans as you said, where there is a Facility Security Officer (FSO) or some boogie like that (airports have a TSO). 

I don't think a FSO or TSO has the right to shoot-em-up though, and if you notice there's usually a cop or two in case they need them at an airport. They do have the right to detain people and seize banned material though. 

If anyone was run off a rig without adequate notice in a manner that threatened the health and safety of the crew I would sure report it to the Coast Guard ... that's called attempted murder.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Probably take an attorney to figure out what the real deal is, and I might be way off base. But I read enough of the CFR to think that's more or less what's up. 


> And after they warn off the boat/plane or helicopter full of real terriosts I guess the terriost will go home and try another day when noone is paying attention?


Actually, yes, I could see where that might happen. They certainly might abort and look for a softer target.



> Unless the rig is heavily armed they don't stand a chance to stop an terriost attack. I guess the Feds have never heard of "suicide bombers". After they have made their attack there won't be any one to catch and prosecute.


Oh, I think they HAVE heard of suicide bombers. I imagine they've also heard of "non suicide" bombers. Timothy McVeigh comes to mind.

As far as being heavily armed, well, against a boat, the rig certainly has a strategic (height) advantage. And a rig is a pretty substantial structure - I could imagine someone trying to blow it up and failing. All depends on the circumstance I suppose. I don't think it's really all that useless to have security plans in place, but that's just me.

Certainly I don't expect anyone to open up with the .50s from the top of a rig when we pull up to fish, but I expect that, as you say, "adequate notice" depends somewhat on circumstance.

And I would further go out on a limb and postulate that the security officer or whatever they call him would have pretty broad authority to do what he felt was necessary, within the guidelines, to protect the rig. Not much different than the Captain of a vessel or an aircraft.

I'm not going to get into silly arguments about the most extreme cases possible, I already said I am not that certain about it. Just going by what I read and what I know from a related industry with similar security concerns and apparattus. My point is, though, I would definitely not refuse to back off a rig, or halt my approach, if told to by the rig. I might question their authority, but I'd do so from a safe distance, and frankly, unless someone comes up with more easily interpreted regulations or laws, I'd be pretty easy to bluff, because i think they do have the legal right.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Levelwind said:


> I'm not going to get into silly arguments about the most extreme cases possible, I already said I am not that certain about it. Just going by what I read and what I know from a related industry with similar security concerns and apparattus. My point is, though, I would definitely not refuse to back off a rig, or halt my approach, if told to by the rig. I might question their authority, but I'd do so from a safe distance, and frankly, unless someone comes up with more easily interpreted regulations or laws, I'd be pretty easy to bluff, because i think they do have the legal right.


I'm not saying your wrong. I'm saying that a terriost is not going to pay any attention to what ever the law/regulation is. It's not legal to fly aircraft into building, but they have!

As far as "extreme cases possible"...you'd have to have your head in the sand to think that they are not capable of attacking an oil production rig. I think 9-11 was pretty extreme! A shrimp boat full of fuel and explosives driven into a rig and detonated doesn't seem like an extreme possble case...more like very possible.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

When we had our radio off (actually turned down kinda low relative to the scream of the engines), did not respond to the radio commands to stay clear, they just sent this vessel out to intercept us. It was a huge crew boat. Could have just rammed us, if they were so inclined. 

I think the rules they were operating under are called the "Law of Tonage." It a doctrine closely related to Newton's First and Second Laws. Not so much the third, which is applied mostly to snapper conservation issues and social modeling under a "butterflies in chaos" strategy.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Ernest said:


> When we had our radio off (actually turned down kinda low relative to the scream of the engines), did not respond to the radio commands to stay clear, they just sent this vessel out to intercept us. It was a huge crew boat. Could have just rammed us, if they were so inclined.
> 
> I think the rules they were operating under are called the "Law of Tonage." It a doctrine closely related to Newton's First and Second Laws. Not so much the third, which is applied mostly to snapper conservation issues and social modeling under a "butterflies in chaos" strategy.


The "Law of Tonage" would work...if they happened to have a crew boat handy!

I am not stating that I would not comply because I'm sure they have all the legal rights to keep you away. I put my radio on scan once I am about 5nmiles out from a floater or rig that I might think has a reason to hail me. I have heard them talk about warning (on their working channel) me off because of divers in the water before they actually call me on 16.

The only point I was wanting to make was...it will keep fishing boats away from the rig, but I doubt it keep a terroist away.


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## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

The *ONLY *reason we won our settlement with the rig owner was on this topic.

They tried to use this *( we were to close to the rig )* defense and we all discovered that without a *NOTICE TO MARINER* being issued they were liable for our loss, and could not stop us, or anyone from fishing around the rig. This BTW happened March 2004 which was post 911.

Now let's use common sense here and not get right under the structure or you might get hit in the head by something falling.

Also: The rig people do not want a bunch of broke off lines with hooks on the end of them hanging off there chains where divers have to go.

Oh Yah and don't be like Earnest and try to use a fiber glass boat in a STEEL BOAT FIGHT.

*MB*


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

oh man that's like bringing a knife to a gunfight, not gud.


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## Formula4Fish (Apr 24, 2007)

I just got off the phone with Coast Guard Port Aransas. They told me if they got a call from one of those rigs complaining we were too close, they would NOT respond. They said "we've got better things to do than to mess with that unless you're tied to the rig or a navigation aid!"

That does not however address a liability issue should someone get hurt.

It just says they don't have the authority to run you off.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Formula4Fish said:


> I just got off the phone with Coast Guard Port Aransas. They told me if they got a call from one of those rigs complaining we were too close, they would NOT respond. They said "we've got better things to do than to mess with that unless you're tied to the rig or a navigation aid!"
> 
> That does not however address a liability issue should someone get hurt.
> 
> It just says they don't have the authority to run you off.


Doesn't say any such thing. Says they don't need the CG's help.



> They tried to use this *( we were to close to the rig )* defense and we all discovered that without a *NOTICE TO MARINER* being issued they were liable for our loss, and could not stop us, or anyone from fishing around the rig. This BTW happened March 2004 which was post 911.


If a Notice to Mariner is like a NOTAM (Notice to Airman) it can be generated and distributed on the spot. Certainly there are definite procedures and protocols that have to be adhered to.


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*notice to mariners*

Howdy,
Notice to Mariners are distributed by the USCG in a weekly format. I don't think they can be generated on the spot by a tool pusher or rig operator.

There are sections in the NTM report devoted to rig issues, but could not find any examples after looking at a few reports.

Here are a few examples of notices to mariner reports regarding vessels;

Continuing until approximately January 24, 2008, the M/V NORMAND CLIPPER will be conducting diving operations in approximate position 28-43-53N 089-41-34W. There will be 2 ROV's assisting with the diving operations. Diving operations will be conducted 24-hours a day. The M/V NORMAND CLIPPER will be monitoring VHF-FM Channel 16, 68 or 69. Mariners are urged to transit the area at their slowest safe speed to minimize wake.

Continuing until approximately January 6, 2008, the M/V WESTERN REGENT with 3 other vessels, will be conducting seismic surveys in the Green Canyon Area, bounded by the following approximate positions:
27-37-00N 089-50-00W,
28-06-00N 090-18-00W,
28-06-00N 090-46-00W,
27-15-00N 091-42-00W and
26-39-00N 091-00-00W.
The M/V WESTERN REGENT is restricted in maneuverability. The vessel is towing 10 cables, 5 nautical miles in length. A wide berth is requested. Mariners are urged to transit the area with extreme caution.

Continuing until approximately May 15, 2008, the M/V AQUILA EXPLORER, M/V FALCON EXPLORER and M/V RAMFORM VIKING will be conducting seismic surveying operations bounded by the following approximate positions:
26-45-00N 092-40-00W,
26-30-00N 092-10-00W,
26-00-00N 093-25-00W and
25-45-00N 092-55-00W.
The vessels will be towing 10 cables measuring 4.4 miles in length. The vessel requests a 10 mile berth.


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## Tankfxr (Dec 26, 2007)

I found this maybe it will help

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title33/33cfr147_main_02.tpl


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Well, I guess y'all got it nailed down! Y'all were right and I was wrong. Next time the rig tells you to stay away give'em the old one finger salute and motor up and tie off. HINT fish congregate under the pods - esp. on the closer rigs that get fished a lot. 


Good LUCK!


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*safety zones*

Yeah, I remember all of this now - there was a bunch of hoopla when the safety zones were enacted around Auger, Mars, Ursa, etc., then it all died down. Here is an example of how these are applied to semisubmersibles such as the Noble Clyde Boudreaux, which started this whole thread...in this case, they are talking about Thunder Horse;

*§ 147.843 Thunder Horse Semi-Submersible safety zone.*

(a) _Description _. Thunder Horse Semi-Submersible, Mississippi Canyon 778 (MC 778), located at position 28°11'26" N, 88°29'44" W. The area within 500 meters (1640.4 feet) from each point on the structure's outer edge is a safety zone. These coordinates are based upon [NAD 83].

(b) _Regulation. _No vessel may enter or remain in this safety zone except the following:
(1) An attending vessel;
(2) A vessel under 100 feet in length overall not engaged in towing; or
(3) A vessel authorized by the Commander, Eighth Coast Guard District.

*So, I would surmise that as long as your vessel is not over 100 feet in length and not engaged with towing, you would not be violating the safety zone as described in the Electronic Code of federal regulations.*

Correct? I am not endorsing this action, I am just trying to understand fully what exactly the regulations are saying.

All the best,
Tom


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Very helpful stuff, and maybe Mont could include a few Notice to Mariner updates and links like that to the rigs (I did not see Boomvang on the list!). 

But in these days when we're spending bazillions of dollars on Homeland Security, we still don't have a Coast Guard with much more than a few pop guns or much of an offshore presence. Comments that if some deviate or terrorist wanted to blow up a spar or semi worth millions if not billions, there's nothing to stop them and you're right. Port security is still wide open for that matter.

I also think that if some rig operator ended up killing a innocent fisherman or two, there would be a huge lawsuit and maybe the you could end up owning that rig.


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## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

A NOTICE TO MARINER is the only way an operator of a RIG ( fixed or moveable ), TOW VESSAL, ROV VESSAL, CABLE VESSAL, FLEXIBLE PIPE VESSAL, or any other operator in NAVIGABLE WATER has to establish a hazard. The NOTICE TO MARINER proves responsibility and it's the only method available ( IN NAVIGABLE WATER ) to try and avoid a loss.

If There is another method I hope someone will post it up so we can all learn.

*MB*


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

That is certainly how I read it, Tom. Seems clear. If less than 100 ft. you're excepted.


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## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

hilton said:


> *§ 147.843 Thunder Horse Semi-Submersible safety zone.*
> 
> (a) _Description _. Thunder Horse Semi-Submersible, Mississippi Canyon 778 (MC 778), located at position 28°11'26" N, 88°29'44" W. The area within 500 meters (1640.4 feet) from each point on the structure's outer edge is a safety zone. These coordinates are based upon [NAD 83].
> 
> ...


Correct.....

The Safety Zone rule was made to try and avoid a major accident involving an offshore fixed or simisubmersable rig and a vessel ( STEEL 100' PLUS ) large enough to sink the rig. That would be a real mess indeed.

They were not woried about a fiberglass boat running into one of theses large STEEL RIG'S. It would just break and sink and the personal an board may not even know they were hit.

*MB*


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## Tankfxr (Dec 26, 2007)

Just because i posted that doesnt mean that i think If the rig calls you on the radio and asks you to stay away that you should just ignore them I just wanted to know the truth as well. I have all of 33 cfr on my computer but i found it on a website so everyone could look at it. Now that doesnt mean that there is not something else out there that would over ride this also.

Hope it helped.


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## Double Down (Dec 26, 2007)

*Distance*

Levelwind

I believe you are 100% correct it would be treated just like a NOTAM or a TFR (temporary flight restriction). These notifications that are produced by the FAA are used to warn airmen of places they cannot fly or hazardous situations to avoid. Just because they have the right to shoot you down if you fly over George Bush's Ranch doesn't mean they are going to do it, but I do believe if they asked you not to approach and you ignore them and some one was hurt whether it be a diver or a rov was damaged. The owner of the fishing boat would be held liable for damages.


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

I might sound like a lazy dummie, but is there a web link to Galveston NOTAM bulletins or something like that, updated good? 

I'd have to admit I don't even know any of the security zones in my own home port, nevermind way out yonder. We slow down for the CG station tho'.


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*floaters*

Howdy,
So...since the federal laws do not prohibit fishing boats under 100' (and not towing), then the correct procedure for fishing a floater would be (?);

1) Be sure to hail the rig when you are a few miles off to alert them that you are fishing, and intend to fish near their structure. Hopefully they will appreciate the heads up, this will be adequate, and you simply go fish.

2) If they declare that you have to maintain a certain distance from the rig, you can alert the rig operator that federal law does not prohibit fishing near these type of structures (under 100' boat). It may not be a bad idea to carry a copy of the federal regs on the boat, in case the rig operator does not believe you.

3) If the rig operator indicates there are particular operations that are currently going on that would jeapordize life or limb, you could ask if they have alerted the USCG about this particular activity and if it is on the latest Notice to Mariners? If they have, then ask for a copy - if they haven't, then I think at this point it becomes a judgement call between you and your crew depending on the circumstances around that particular activity, right?

Just trying to get this clear in my mind, in case I ever get asked that question again, OR I ever get a chance to go fishing again instead of working on this computer screen.









Tom


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## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

Hi Tom,

I would add another number.

4) Check the USCG NOTICE TO MARINERS report *BEFORE *you go fishing, and have a copy aboard during your adventure.

This action verifies any hazards in or around the area you will fishing, and proves your a responsible boater.

Insurance Companies like Responsible Boaters.

*MB*


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*floaters*

MB,
Good point.

I will provide hyperlinks to the electronic code of federal regulations in addition to the link to obtain the latest Notice to Mariners notices on our Realtime-Navigator.com site for fishermen to be able to download prior to venturing way out there.

Thanks,
Tom


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## henry-dean (Feb 25, 2008)

If you wonder why we have restrictions regarding how far you can, and cannot approach oil platforms. I only need to point to 9/11. Whether you like it or not it has become a national security issue. Not to mention a safety issue. I do not believe all platforms are restricted. 

Your best bet is to go to the MTSA (Marine Transportation Security Act) website or contact 1-877-687-2243. If they don’t have the information you are looking for they can usually point you in the right direction.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

> USCG, saving America one idiot at a time


 Love it. A little cynical, but true.

Great thread. Something all of us should know pretty much everything there is to know about it, but obviously none (or almost none) of us do.

My takeaway.

The Navigation CFRs, like those I deal with daily in my work, are written in VERY broad terms. The responsible regulatory agencies figure out how to enforce them, and that becomes the "specifics", often publishing advisory material ranging from simple interpretation to multi page decision trees.

Maybe a rig has the legal authority under the CFRs (somewhere) to order a sportfishing boat to maintain a certain distance. Maybe not. I'd guess they do because it makes sense.

Even if they don't, it seems really, really stupid to ignore them except in the unlikely event that they tell you they just don't like fishermen, or some other BS reason like that. One of the most logical reasons for them to tell you to keep your distance is for your own safety. They could have sour gas problems, a fuel leak or fuel fume issue, be about to discharge hot or caustic liquids or solids, etc.

So you tell the guy to screw off. Good move. MAYBE he's a saint, and takes the time to give you an explanation you "buy". More likely he shrugs his shoulders makes a note and goes on about his business. And you have a real bad day.

AFTER reading this thread, before making a long run to a floater or a spar with no real backup option, I'm going to try to figure out how to get hold of someone in charge and make sure they're good with visitors.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Y'll are talking like you are going to be swapping interpretations of various provisions of the Code of Federal Regs on the high seas over the radio. As if any of that means jack to the guy on the other end of the radio. The guy on the radio at the rig has little or no authority. He is just following orders. He does not make policy. He typically implements policy developed by others. 

What, is he going to e-mail or fax you something? Are you going to e-mail or fax something to him? If not, who cares if you have a set of this or a copy of that. 

What are you going to do if they order you off, but lack the actual legal authority to do so? Cry to the Coast Guard? Sue them for fuel and bait money? Read the riot act over the radio to folks who simply don't care? 

How about this - someone sit down with a maritime attorney well versed in these issues. Have that attorney explain all the puts and takes of the situation. Basically, lay out the rights, duties, and responsibilities of each of the parties involved. At least then, you will know your options and your potential liabilities.


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## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

Levelwind said:


> Even if they don't, it seems really, really stupid to ignore them except in the unlikely event that they tell you *they just don't like fishermen,* or some other BS reason like that.
> 
> AFTER reading this thread, before making a long run to a floater or a spar with no real backup option, I'm going to try to figure out how to get hold of someone in charge and make sure they're good with visitors.


Hi levelwind,

I have a neighbor that is lets say ( a rig PE ) and we have talked about this topic at length. The Company he works for puts signs on the side of their rigs that say "Warning stay 500 meters away" ( or something like that ), and he even admits this is an unenforceable statement without a NOTICE TO MARINER posted with the USCG.

IMHO Their view about fisherman around their rigs is..... the company does not want or need another liability to deal with. " Fishermen in boats around a rig are a liability ". This statement is undeniable. It's easer, and has proven more affective to get some one on a radio to try and talk these boats away verses having to put an employee /s on 24 Hr. fishing boat watch. It's not that they dislike fisherman they just don't need another potential problem.

Remember: " This is a job site not a playground ".

The OIM has the responsibility to ENFORCE SAFETY at this job site.

We fisherman have a responsibility to RESPECT SAFETY and not endanger ourselves or the rig.....

There's always going to be a but-head on a rig and one in a boat....

I'm going to do the world a favor and " Try not to be a BUT-HEAD ".

BTW The fishing hook statement ( in one of my earlier post came from my neighbor ).

*MB*


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## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

Ernest said:


> How about this - someone sit down with a maritime attorney well versed in these issues. Have that attorney explain all the puts and takes of the situation. Basically, lay out the rights, duties, and responsibilities of each of the parties involved. At least then, you will know your options and your potential liabilities.


Hi Ernest,

Been there, done that, got the settlement.

*MB*


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

Ernest said:


> Y'll are talking like you are going to be swapping interpretations of various provisions of the Code of Federal Regs on the high seas over the radio. As if any of that means jack to the guy on the other end of the radio. The guy on the radio at the rig has little or no authority. He is just following orders. He does not make policy. He typically implements policy developed by others.
> 
> What, is he going to e-mail or fax you something? Are you going to e-mail or fax something to him? If not, who cares if you have a set of this or a copy of that.
> 
> ...


Ernest,
That's probably the best solution - you willing to pony up some $$ to find out the answer? I would be willing to split the expenses with people interested in resolving this issue.

If it's not hurricanes, or NMFS sticking it to us, or gas prices going through the roof, it's large corporations trying to exert control over citizens which they possibly have no right to exert. Part of being a responsible boater is knowing your rights, duties, and responsibilities of all parties involved.

Tom


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## Piledriver (May 23, 2007)

Just for everyone's information, the rules that apply to this subject come from the Deepwater Port Act which defines a Deepwater port as:

(9) "deepwater port"- 
(A) means any fixed or floating manmade structure other than a vessel, or any group of such structures, that are located beyond State seaward boundaries and that are used or intended for use as a port or terminal for the transportation, storage, or further handling of oil or natural gas for transportation to any State, except as otherwise provided in section 1522 of this title, and for other uses not inconsistent with the purposes of this chapter, including transportation of oil or natural gas from the United States outer continental shelf; 
(B) includes all components and equipment, including pipelines, pumping stations, service platforms, buoys, mooring lines, and similar facilities to the extent they are located seaward of the high water mark; 
(C) in the case of a structure used or intended for such use with respect to natural gas, includes all components and equipment, including pipelines, pumping or compressor stations, service platforms, buoys, mooring lines, and similar facilities that are proposed or approved for construction and operation as part of a deepwater port, to the extent that they are located seaward of the high water mark and do not include interconnecting facilities; and 
(D) shall be considered a "new source" for purposes of the Clean Air Act (42 U.S.C. 7401 et seq.), and the Federal Water Pollution Control Act (33 U.S.C. 1251 et seq.);

The section for safety zones states this:
(d) *Safety zones; designation; construction period; permitted activities *(1) Subject to recognized principles of international law and after consultation with the Secretary of the Interior, the Secretary of Commerce, the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary shall designate a zone of appropriate size around and including any deepwater port for the purpose of navigational safety. In such zone, no installations, structures, or uses will be permitted that are incompatible with the operation of the deepwater port. The Secretary shall by regulation define permitted activities within such zone. The Secretary shall, not later than 30 days after publication of notice pursuant to section 1504 (c) of this title, designate such safety zone with respect to any proposed deepwater port. 
(2) In addition to any other regulations, the Secretary is authorized, in accordance with this subsection, to establish a safety zone to be effective during the period of construction of a deepwater port and to issue rules and regulations relating thereto.

IMHO! Cutting to the chase, there may or may not be a set zone around the rigs as it is determined and set on a case by case senerio. Hence typcial government fashion! So a interested individual would have to search the CFR to find the individual safety zones for each platform.


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## willyhunting (Apr 21, 2006)

Tom,



I would gather that the oil/drilling companies have a far different take on it than you do. They did pay for the lease; have hundred of millions, if not billons invested in these structures. The last thing they want is an incident that leads to bad press. 



As far as Marine Security (MARSEC) plans, it is up to the individual installation to develop an approved security plan. The CFR is very vague and serves as a template. An entity can lay out their own plans to deal with any and all situations as they see fit to deal with their particular 'security scenarios'. It is very much in the realm of possibility that one particular site may have very different rules on the size of safety zones and intrusions into them. If their particular plan outlines the types of restrictions on small craft, then they had better follow it, our it will lead to serious questions down the road if they do have an incident and are found to have disregard their own plan in the past.


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## surfwalker (Jul 14, 2006)

Okay I didnt read it threw completly, but I glanced threw it, safety zone key word..If you look at what it says dangerous material hazardous conditions etc etc. So from what im seeing they can only establish this as "a safety area" "safety zone", not a hey we dont want you fishing under our rig so leave, and if they do hail the CG if I remember right, their burden of proof. So I think they have to, if requested, inform you of why they are not allowing you in. I really dont believe they have the right to run you off any rig, without some sort of reasonable safety issue. Yes divers down, subs down hazardous materials, dangerous something, but hey we dont want you catchin the fish under our riggs, and we have a serious power mad red neck controll issue is not a viable reason. Just be careful of those idiots throwing **** at your boat. But if they hit you they will then be liable, and you can call the CG..


Tankfxr said:


> I found this maybe it will help
> 
> http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1a47265432a02641d6799cc9a1485ab0&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title33/33cfr147_main_02.tpl


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*floaters*

Willyhunting,
First, I respect what the oil companies are doing out there - it's great for the country. I am not anti-oil.

However, the lease that they are paying for is positioned at the bottom of the ocean - it does not encompass, to my knowledge, the surface waters above.

The questions on this thread are merely an attempt to define the rights of all parties involved. My opinion is that any aggressive action by any party towards the other in this scenario is unacceptable. Americans have rights to fish in the US waters, and oil companies have rights to safegueard their investments.

Where do you draw the line?

Tom


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## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

hilton said:


> *Where do you draw the line?*
> 
> Tom


That's the question ?

And the answer is.................?

IMHO: Give them some space ( RESPECT ) when fishing around Billion dollar rigs.

*MB*


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Something tell me you could probably find 10,000 pages of info on the topic but nobody could say it simply or put is on a bumper sticker. 

So it's a good point that the oil rig is setting on submerged land leased by the MMS and they don't own the water. 

But also that was a good point MB made that an active rig is like setting on a controlled explosion and is extremely dangerous - there's a reasonable expectation that the rig operator would have an adequate margin of safety.

At the end of the day it prolly all boils down to common sense ... listen to 16 and see if the rig operator starts barking at ya, and if not, tight lines!
-sam


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

*floaters*

MB,

I agree - use common sense and nobody is in harm's way.

It's kind like the frustrating aspect of the enviros controlling legislation relative to the Magnuson, setting arbitrary conditions for the rebuilding of the stock when they are not necessary to be so restrictive.

Having a rig operator setting arbitrary conditions for approaching the rig may or may not be justifiable..but as you said, give them RESPECT. This means keeping a safe distance (may 100 yards?) and of course not tying up to the rig itself which WOULD expose the oil companies to potential liabilities.

Tom


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

surfwalker said:


> ..........but hey we dont want you catchin the fish under our riggs, and we have a _serious power mad red neck controll issue_ is not a viable reason. Just be careful of those idiots throwing **** at your boat. But if they hit you they will then be liable, and you can call the CG..


WAIT A MINUTE!

Why can't it be a liberal commie fisherman hater?

Hey Tom,
Thanks for all the goodies for Flat Out Fishing!


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Politics and religion be darned, do they throw shazz at you out at Toon ****?


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## surfwalker (Jul 14, 2006)

Okay what he said is fine....i just want tight lines no BS and public access to water and beach's LOL..


Captn C said:


> WAIT A MINUTE!
> 
> Why can't it be a liberal commie fisherman hater?
> 
> ...


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Swells said:


> Politics and religion be darned, do they throw shazz at you out at Toon ****?


I had a bag of blasting sand pour onto/into the boat once when tied to rig. They never ask to leave or said they didn't want us to tie off...laughing was the only thing we heard. I guess they could have pour something else on us.

It does make the hair on the back of your neck stand up when you a hear a couple metalic clangs then something hit the water near boat...at high speed...thats happened a couple times. Once they yelled down they were sorry.


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Gosh you're supposed to fish next to the rig, not INSIDE the rig!! Just kidding but it sounds like Boomvang is not as ornery as some others. 

I have to admit that clanging metal and loud horns do make me nervous out there though ... and if that flare goes off it's like the Devil's Cigarette Lighter. 

p.s. anyone studied the currents out there? North to south fast or slow? Seems like tuna like the current to make them excited, just wondering. /sam


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Tom, I know a guy that will gladly tell you the answer for a small fee. In fact, he might well trade you for some subscriptions to Hilton's Navigator.


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## dwphello (Jul 31, 2007)

*Boomvang*

Boomvang is okay. The only thing is you can not put a diver in the water within 500 ft. That is what the operator told me on 16. He quoted homeland security. The diver did have a 7' wood grain gun in his hands too. That may have scared them. I told the operator no problem have a nice day and we slid back to about 250 ft. and the operator watched us from the deck and didn't say anything else. We told them bye when we left and they replied have a safe trip home.


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## MB (Mar 6, 2006)

I put up Poll to see what 2Coolers think is a safe distance to stay away from deep water rigs.

This should add a new thought to this thread.

What if the fisherman and the oil rigs come up with a distance compromise that is reasonable for both?

This would have to be the Honor System and Fisherman would have police Fisherman.

Layers and Government would have to be excluded from this deal.

One thing is for sure.

The Government does not need to be involved in this compromise distance. All they want is POWER and AUTHORITY and that would screw things up more.

*MB*


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

MB said:


> I put up Poll to see what 2Coolers think is a safe distance to stay away from deep water rigs.
> 
> This should add a new thought to this thread.
> 
> ...


That sounds like democracy. You will be punished without mercy for such deviant thoughts.


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