# Lets talk scopes



## sleepersilverado (Jun 27, 2011)

I would like some input from others on what they do that works for them. 

My goal here is consistency no matter what I decide to shoot. So I am thinking about finding a scope that I can put on all my guns. .223, .308, .300, 6.5g, 6.5c

I currently have a Nikon M223 with target turrets on my bull barrel AR. 
A M308 with BDC on my .308

I have decided I like the turrets better and figure most hunting I do I will have time to range and dope. 

So my thought is to find one scope I can use across all platforms and just get custom turrets made for each gun. That way no matter what gun I want to use they all have the same scope with each having a custom turret. 

I want a min of 4-16X, FFP, and stay under $2k. 

Opinions/direction?


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

sleepersilverado said:


> I would like some input from others on what they do that works for them.
> 
> My goal here is consistency no matter what I decide to shoot. So I am thinking about finding a scope that I can put on all my guns. .223, .308, .300, 6.5g, 6.5c
> 
> ...


Iâ€™m a Leupold or Swarovski fan, preferably Swarovski, but the guys I hunt with are going Vortex....


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

I got one Zeiss HD5 and ditched all my other scopes. 3-15x have hunted plains game in Namibia, south Texas, East Texas. Long range work on paper out to 1000 and kill shots on game out to 700. No turrets needed. Get the RZ800 or RZ600, the Zeiss app. Sight in and use the app and it is immediate and intuitive. Accurate as a range finder as well when you learn how. $800 per scope and spend the other $ on working up bullets or another caliber.....or on booking an actual hunt. I made kill shots on game at over 500 yards in a fraction of a second....

I have em on a dozen rifles from .204 to .416. The app is dead on.


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## zack3476 (Jun 22, 2012)

Really liking my nightforce shv, Iâ€™d throw that one in for a look. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

I mean after i got one Zeiss HD5....i quickly replaced all the other scopes in my safe. Love em.


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

Leupold VX5i with the CDS turret option. 

Find ammo that the gun likes, whether it be handloads or factory ammo, get the required data for it(find someone with a chronograph if you donâ€™t have one, majority of manufactures can give you the BC of bullets if you canâ€™t find reliable data online) and send it in to Leupold. They will make a custom CDS turret and send it back to you. Install, zero the rifle, reset the turret to ZERO. Need to make a 300yard shot? Dial it to 3. Need to make a 500yd shot? Dial it to 5. 

They are sweet. My buddy has one on his 204 ruger, and after we got the data(he shoots factory hornady ammo) and he installed the turret, itâ€™s within 1-1.5in or so out to 400yds, and that could easily be us causing the slight deviation. I believe they have both FFP and SFP options in the VX5, and with the CDS, you really donâ€™t need FFP.


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)




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## crvbs (Jul 5, 2004)

brought 2 of these last year on black friday, the 4.5x14 . Mine had turrets and wind dot recitcle , Other than having to put 20 moa base with it, they are great scopes. Better then any thing I've every had.https://www.cabelas.com/product/bar...-instinct-hd-riflescope/2347384.uts?slotId=12


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## texasGG (Mar 12, 2007)

I have used Leupold scopes all my life, I'm old and was having problems seeing clearly through the scope. I use reading glasses but can see great at longer distances. My cross hairs were fuzzy unless I put on my glasses but if I did that my target was fuzzy. I got a new Vortex scope and it has the reticle adjustment on it so I can adjust my cross hair until it is perfectly clear and also an adjustment for the target/range. I can see everything perfectly now, like I was 20 years old again. Just something to concider from an old guy... My Brother uses Zeiss and loves them also.


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

You may want to go and look through as many as you can. I'm 50 darn seven years old when I was 25 and started hunting I could get away with a 59$ tasco now I have 2-VX2 3x9x40s 1-VX3I 4.5x14x50 and a NF ATACR 5x25x56.Life can be short spend once cry once.


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## RandyM (Jul 14, 2005)

http://www.vortexoptics.com/


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## housewolf (Nov 24, 2014)

zack3476 said:


> Really liking my nightforce shv, Iâ€™d throw that one in for a look.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Of the ones mentioned so far, this is the only one I know of thatâ€™s available FFP but itâ€™s 4-14 so I donâ€™t believe anyone has mentioned a scope that meets all OPâ€™s criteria.


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## RandyM (Jul 14, 2005)

VIPERÂ® PSTâ„¢ 4-16X50 FFP RIFLESCOPE â€" First Focal Plane

http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-pst-4-16x50-ffp-riflescope-with-ebr-1-moa-reticle


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## housewolf (Nov 24, 2014)

RandyM said:


> VIPERÂ® PSTâ„¢ 4-16X50 FFP RIFLESCOPE â€" First Focal Plane
> 
> http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-pst-4-16x50-ffp-riflescope-with-ebr-1-moa-reticle


Illuminated reticle too. Problem with most FFP scopes is the really fine reticle isnâ€™t what _Iâ€™d consider_ â€œoptimalâ€ for hunting (YMMV) particularly in low light. The illuminated crosshairs help out with that significantly.

FWIW; the NF SHV FFP 4-14 has an illuminated reticle also


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

RandyM said:


> VIPERÂ® PSTâ„¢ 4-16X50 FFP RIFLESCOPE â€" First Focal Plane
> 
> http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-pst-4-16x50-ffp-riflescope-with-ebr-1-moa-reticle


I have two of these Vortex and a NF SHV and 3-4 other Vortex HS scopes. The PST FFP are excellent scopes, not quite as good as NF but are 1/2 the cost. I like the HS scopes for hunting. I was a Leupold guy for over 40 years on mostly hunting rifles. Also excellent glass.

IME, the Vortex as the best value on the market today.

For the record, are you talking about buying ONE scope and move it around on several rifles? If so, that would NEVER work for me. I love to shoot, but I hate sighting in rifles. IMO, you will wear out the screws on the rings and the notches in the turrets switching one scope between 3-4 rifles. I have 3 rifles now that I need to sight in due to a scope "trickle up" due to a recent purchase. As soon as it dries up some and isn't 18 degrees I will shoot them in.

Also, IME, most hunting does not lend to ranging and doping. You need to zero the scope for a yardage, all of my hunting rifles are zeroed at 200 yds. MEMORIZE the hold overs or dope on the reticle to the various yardages you might need to shoot. When a trophy buck walks out, he normally isn't there to eat corn, he is there chasing a doe or just crossing. You generally have just seconds to decide if he is the one for you and shoot.


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

RandyM said:


> VIPERÂ® PSTâ„¢ 4-16X50 FFP RIFLESCOPE â€" First Focal Plane
> 
> http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-pst-4-16x50-ffp-riflescope-with-ebr-1-moa-reticle


I run a PST gen1 6-24x50 FFP on my Ruger precision rifle, itâ€™s a good scope for the money.

Still think the Leupold VX5 CDS is a solid option. Benefit of first focal plane for me is accurate holdovers using a reticle. Downside is how small the reticle gets at lower magnification. With the SFP Leupold, the proper CDS turret and a range finder, you just dial the range of your target and send it.


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## sleepersilverado (Jun 27, 2011)

First off thanks for all the replies, I was interested in hearing what has worked for others so i greatly appreciate it.



sgrem said:


> I got one Zeiss HD5 and ditched all my other scopes. 3-15x have hunted plains game in Namibia, south Texas, East Texas. Long range work on paper out to 1000 and kill shots on game out to 700. No turrets needed. Get the RZ800 or RZ600, the Zeiss app. Sight in and use the app and it is immediate and intuitive. Accurate as a range finder as well when you learn how. $800 per scope and spend the other $ on working up bullets or another caliber.....or on booking an actual hunt. I made kill shots on game at over 500 yards in a fraction of a second....
> 
> I have em on a dozen rifles from .204 to .416. The app is dead on.


Over the years you have talked about this scope so much they should be paying you. And I have looked at it a hand full of times because of you.



Chase4556 said:


> Leupold VX5i with the CDS turret option.
> 
> Find ammo that the gun likes, whether it be handloads or factory ammo, get the required data for it(find someone with a chronograph if you donâ€™t have one, majority of manufactures can give you the BC of bullets if you canâ€™t find reliable data online) and send it in to Leupold. They will make a custom CDS turret and send it back to you. Install, zero the rifle, reset the turret to ZERO. Need to make a 300yard shot? Dial it to 3. Need to make a 500yd shot? Dial it to 5.
> 
> They are sweet. My buddy has one on his 204 ruger, and after we got the data(he shoots factory hornady ammo) and he installed the turret, itâ€™s within 1-1.5in or so out to 400yds, and that could easily be us causing the slight deviation. I believe they have both FFP and SFP options in the VX5, and with the CDS, you really donâ€™t need FFP.


So this caught my interest. I guess I never thought the process through and realized that the FFP scopes are best suited for hold over recitals and SFP was just fine if you are using cross hairs and adjusting. I called a Leupold to confirm and he said FFP is beneficial to keeping poi the same across magnifications and if using turrets poi will not change with magnification.



RB II said:


> I have two of these Vortex and a NF SHV and 3-4 other Vortex HS scopes. The PST FFP are excellent scopes, not quite as good as NF but are 1/2 the cost. I like the HS scopes for hunting. I was a Leupold guy for over 40 years on mostly hunting rifles. Also excellent glass.
> 
> IME, the Vortex as the best value on the market today.
> 
> ...


No sir on the one scope for multiple rifles. More on the thought of having one model scope with different magnifications for different rifles. So on my sbr i could put a 1-6X, then on a hunting rifle something like a 4-16X and so forth. That way no matter the rifle or magnification you have the same scopes on all rifles and no matter what you pick up you just dial the custom turret to the desired range.

So it looks like for what my goal is I don't need a FFP scope.

Once again thanks for the replies, I asked because as we now see my criteria of wants has been better formulated. I need to look more at all the recommendations, then i will buy one and see if it is going to work out for me like i expect.

I just keep going away from the hold over recitals because i dont want to have to remember elevations for each gun even though I have a card on my current hold over gun.

Keep on with the input.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Iâ€™m not sure what you hunt and where but keep in mind that any CDS turret system will only be accurate for the environmental factors it was built around. For instance, if you hunt whitetails at home and base your CDS data off of this and then travel to Alaska to hunt Sitka blacktails, your CDS wonâ€™t be accurate bc youâ€™ve changed elevation, temperature, humidity, etc. If you donâ€™t travel and hunt, it may not be a big deal.

I like to stay with standard MOA turrets and just make a dope card for each rifle at differing elevations. This works for me whether Iâ€™m deer hunting at home or hunting the mountains in some foreign land.


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

Cynoscion said:


> Iâ€™m not sure what you hunt and where but keep in mind that any CDS turret system will only be accurate for the environmental factors it was built around. For instance, if you hunt whitetails at home and base your CDS data off of this and then travel to Alaska to hunt Sitka blacktails, your CDS wonâ€™t be accurate bc youâ€™ve changed elevation, temperature, humidity, etc. If you donâ€™t travel and hunt, it may not be a big deal.
> 
> I like to stay with standard MOA turrets and just make a dope card for each rifle at differing elevations. This works for me whether Iâ€™m deer hunting at home or hunting the mountains in some foreign land.


100% true. If you are shooting in Texas, it may be dead on. Leupold prints the temp/altitude/ect that it was worked up with on the CDS dial. I believe they ask what the temps/altitude/ect were when you shot when making the CDS dial. Go to cold weather and altitude in Colorado... it wonâ€™t be the same. That is true for any dope chart, but itâ€™s much easier to get a new dope chart off your new environmental changes than it is a new CDS dial. Where you may be going to hunt is another thing to consider, large changes can be enough to really throw off that CDS dial.

Here is a picture to give you an idea of what the dial is worked up for. It will have your load data, the altitude and temp it was worked up for. Iâ€™m still somewhat green when it comes to how much change those environmental factors can have on your shots. Others who know can maybe chime in on what a difference going from sea level and 80*f to 5000ft and 45*f could have.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Temperature seems to have a greater affect than altitude in the calibers I shoot. The difference between 85 degrees and 40 degrees at 500 yards is a hair over 1 MOA in my 7mmRem SAUM This could be the difference between a good shot and a marginal shot or even worse, a miss. Add in the altitude factor and humidity and itâ€™s a definite miss.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

sleepersilverado said:


> I just keep going away from the hold over recitals because i dont want to have to remember elevations for each gun even though I have a card on my current hold over gun.
> 
> Keep on with the input.


IMO, don't overthink the hunting hold over thing. Unless you are either shooting a 30-30 (ballistically challenged beyond 100 yds) or shooting over 300 yds or shooting prairie dogs (small target), basically every modern rifle caliber will shoot flat enough for that range.

An example, a deer (and adult hog also) is approx 16" top of back to bottom of chest. A 270 sighted in at 200 yds shooting a 130 gr bullet will hit mid deer (drop about 8") if you hold at the top of its back at 300 yds.

Get your dope chart and put the ballistics of your rifle into that perspective, (the thickness of a deer) and you will stop worrying about "remembering" a whole bunch of stuff. My recommendation is use one rifle for most/all of your hunting for a while. Learn it well. Your success rate will go up by doing that.

The reality is the less you have to "remember" when a trophy is standing there, the more chance you have of harvesting it. Simply ranging a deer and then shooting can take many seconds. Trophies aren't known for hanging around for very long.


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## sleepersilverado (Jun 27, 2011)

I have way over thought it thatâ€™s why I had to ask for advice. 

If I was traveling I could technically put the factory turret back on and make a dope chart. 

I made me a dope chart for my bdc Nikon when I went to Colorado. 

The more we talk about it the more I think sgremâ€™s method might be easiest. I just hate to rely on technology because my phone did not work in Colorado.


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## trout250 (Aug 24, 2005)

i have a ziess 3-12 x 56mm. go with the biggst/ largest objective that you can find because of the amount of light it will gather, i have a stand in a creek bottom and 1 on a pipeline. you will be amazed at how much the larger objective helps when hunting in low light areas .


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

The Zeiss app is mainly just for sighting in. After that its all in the scope already and immediate. Out to 300 yards it makes little difference just aim and go....and there is even a basic rangefinder built into the reticle to tell you immediately if your game is under 300....then just aim and send it. I dont use the app after sight in unless i change locations or bullets. Even then i put in elevation and temps from the house. Just a tool in the tool box. Fail proof.

Bigger objective is NOT the way to go for a hunting rifle. Our eyes cannot use the theoretical advantage anyway. Even if you think its brighter your eyes cannot allow in the useful light anyway.

Having to space up that giant objective causes addition problems....and the weight....and the hitting it on everything....and the added cost. 40-44 mm is plenty and all your eyes can use anyway.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/straight_scope.htm


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

And a 30-30 with lever evolution bullets is a legitimate 300 yard gun.


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## Csafisher (Nov 16, 2010)

sgrem said:


> The Zeiss app is mainly just for sighting in. After that its all in the scope already and immediate. Out to 300 yards it makes little difference just aim and go....and there is even a basic rangefinder built into the reticle to tell you immediately if your game is under 300....then just aim and send it. I dont use the app after sight in unless i change locations or bullets. Even then i put in elevation and temps from the house. Just a tool in the tool box. Fail proof.
> 
> Bigger objective is NOT the way to go for a hunting rifle. Our eyes cannot use the theoretical advantage anyway. Even if you think its brighter your eyes cannot allow in the useful light anyway.
> 
> ...


Your eyes will most definitely pick up a difference in certain applications. Take a 20x scope with a 40mm objective and one with a 50 or 56mm objective and see which one you can see through longer, it will be the one with a bigger objective. Hands down. However, take the same scopes and dial them down to 5x and you prolly wonâ€™t notice a difference. Your argument based on weight and size is a solid one, but really depends on the use. If itâ€™s a stand gun, who cares. If you shoot most of the time at 4-10x on your scope not much difference. If you are shooting at 300yds at 20x then the objective will make a difference in low light.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

A 6x32mm transmits more light than a 10x50mm....

20x is not much use on a hunting rifle exactly for that reason. It kills the light transmission needed in low light. Dial it down for better light transmission.

You eye can only take advantage of so much. The math does not equal what your eye can actually use to benefit you. Save your money and see brighter with less magnification.

The higher magnification doesnt make you more accurate. Shooting paper is one thing. On game is something different.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

I haven't read all the replies, so may be repeating something.
Dividing the objective diameter by the power gives the exit pupil size.

So 3 to 9 X 50 as example. 50/3= 16.6 50/9= 5.5

Obviously, *with everything else being equal*, a larger diameter objective helps with light transmission, and higher power magnification reduces light transmission.

I think the largest exit pupil most human eyes can use is 7, but at my age that is down somewhat.
However, the quality of the glass and lens coatings affects light transmission a lot, so there is more to it than just math.


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## Csafisher (Nov 16, 2010)

sgrem said:


> A 6x32mm transmits more light than a 10x50mm....
> 
> 20x is not much use on a hunting rifle exactly for that reason. It kills the light transmission needed in low light. Dial it down for better light transmission.
> 
> ...


I agree. The point I was making is that the size of the objective does matter and your eyes will pick up the difference when compared at higher magnification. However it really depends on your application and intended use for which is better. As I said, doesnâ€™t really make a difference if itâ€™s a stand rifle. A 50mm objective wonâ€™t hurt. Big deal if itâ€™s 3oz heavier. For stalking or backpacking then there is something to be said for weight savings.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

sgrem said:


> And a 30-30 with lever evolution bullets is a legitimate 300 yard gun.


21"+ of drop in 300 yds is not a legit 300 yard rifle as compared to other high power calibers like .270 or 30-06. 13" and 14.7" respective.

Anything can be argued to be what one thinks is legit, but it is just that arguing and your opinion. And one of the reasons I don't frequent this site much anymore. LOTS of experts on EVERY subject.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

I agree. Some people are way way off.....

Not sure what you are looking at but a 200 yards zero and 12" low at 300 yards still with over 1000 pounds of energy. (900 pounds of energy is widely accepted as the minimum on medium size/deer size game).....

.....makes it a legit 300 yard gun with less drop than both your examples....no idea what loads you are looking at as my 270 loads drop less than 6" at 300 when sighted in at a 200 yard zero.

Would be super interested in some other experts ballistics showing 13" drop in their 270.....or maybe some should consider taking some advice to improve those balistics....


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

100 yd zero.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> I like to stay with standard MOA turrets and just make a dope card for each rifle at differing elevations. This works for me whether Iâ€™m deer hunting at home or hunting the mountains in some foreign land.


Elevation is important but temperature most definitely will affect the bullet trajectory.

As for rifle scopes, Leupold has always served me well so I own no other scopes

TH


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

I just put a Sig Tango 4 in 6-20 on my Savage Stealth Evo. It's a FFP and I really like the tactile feel of the turrets. Under $1000


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