# New Antler Restrictions Considered for East Texas



## Galveston Yankee (May 24, 2004)

Parks and Wildlife is considering the 13" antler width restriction for 11 East Texas counties. The counties will be Angelina, Hardin, Jasper, Liberty, Montgomery, Newton, Polk, San Jacinto, Trinity, Tyler and Walker.

Shannon Tompkins has an article in today's Houston Chronicle about it. There will be some scoping meetings up in that area for property owners and people who hunt up there. Problem is that the meetings are in the middle of the week at night.

I'm not crazy about the idea, but I do know of a lease that went under lamps and used the 13" rule. Several years after they started, 41 bucks were taken opening week that had the 13" spread. The first year the frist two years there were very few bucks taken off of a 14,000 acre lease.

Rainy has already said that she'll just kill does to avoid the fine for killing a deer that doesn't measure up!

Here's a link to the article.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/outdoors/tompkins/5564892.html

GY


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## Rainy (Jul 30, 2005)

I am against the new antler restrictions in East Texas. That's the hardest deer hunting in the state, in my opinion. Reasons being (1)Majority of hunting is in lanes in pine forrests and paper company land, some quite narrow, with (2)less daylight and makes it hard to see very far. (3) There aren't large herds of deer like in west Texas or huge open spaces like the hill country and south Texas. I consider it a great day to see three deer together at one time in East Texas. I have hunted all areas and nothing compares to the hunting we do in East Texas. My most productive hunting lane is only 5 steps across for a deer. A split second if they are running. I truly believe hunters are more handicapped in East Texas.

I became a member of the $100 dollar club at the Camden Hunting Club lease. I shot 9 point on that lease a few years ago. The hunting club had it's own rule, not a TPW rule, of a 13 inch spread. The deer was standing sideways in the lane. I shot and killed the deer. When we retrived the deer I found it did not have a 13 inch inside spread. I had to pay the hunting club/lease $100. So did some of the men on the lease. These were all long time hunters. A couple of years later we moved back to a lease we had been on before that is just across 942.

*As for antlered deer-This change would only allow one 13 inch buck and one spike. *

*So, if a great tropy buck came out at another time, you couldn't shoot it, you could only shoot a spike as your second buck.*

Galveston Yankee and I neither one saw a spike last year. We both shot 8 points. They pretty much look almost identical. My buck's ears were out to the side and I shot. He measured 12 inches. Toms's was 13 1/2, but he said he most likely wouln't have shot if such new restrictions had been in place then becaue he couldn't be that precise about the measurement.

Hunting in the tall Texas pines is not easy! They seldom ever have to come out in the open to get where they are going. But, it is a good challenge and a really fun time in the East Texas woods!.

Rainy


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## chuck richey (May 22, 2004)

I do not agree with the 13" rule. We hunt our own land in Montgomery county. We do not shoot everything we see. If it is someone on there first hunt and they see it as a trophy we let them get after it. We have shot some good deer off of the place and will get many more. The only shots fired on our place this year was my fox,my dad's hog and a few rabbits. My opinion is that if they want to do this they should start with the national forests first to see how it would work. From what I have seen and heard, if it has horns most let the lead fly. Just my opinion and nothing else.


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## coondog (Jan 24, 2006)

The ranch we hunt, the members decided 4 years ago to shoot does and spikes for 3 years. It really helped the antler population; instead of the occasional 8 & 10 pt that was not 13 inches. Now, we have 5 shooters, on camera, (that disappeared this season). They have been seen, since the end of the season. We are not high fenced, the problem that we had was the guy's the next pasture over were killing everything in site. We were letting them live the others were shooting them. Since the new 13 inch rule has been enacted, that seems to have stopped them. We are seeing a lot better deer.


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

My land is in Angelina so I know what you folks are talking about. Only buck I saw all season this year was a spike, and I can count the totally number of deer I saw all season on my hands. It is tough hunting, and this past season was the toughest.


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## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

I hunt in North Central Texas so I dont really have a dog in this hunt, but I truley wish they would make the antler restrictions in all the counties I hunt in. I would much rather shoot a doe or spike or a deformed buck with an unbranched antler on one side to eat than a 11" basket rack buck. In all I have read it has greatly improved the hunting in every area it has been in effect for a few years. I know I read many who opposed it a few years back in the first counties now love the mature bucks they are finally getting a chance to harvest. After it is in effect a few years, I bet the antler quality will improve dramatically.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

The 13" rule is sure working in Jackson County...best thing to have happened to deer hunting there for a long time.

TH


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## Big Boggy Wader (Sep 13, 2005)

I wish it was law in Comal and Bexar county.


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## KJON (May 1, 2006)

I think it will work, problem in E. Texas, if it's got something sticking out of it's head SHOOT IT, not crazy about the Feds making the rules but, someone has to put a check on the old "one eyed beagle".


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## bowhunterhowell (Jul 17, 2005)

This is one of the greatest laws ever passed in texas . We hunt in east texas and i am here to say it works . In east texas there is this rule of " if you dont shoot it the neighbors will " . For the most part this is not true . You have to talk to and meet the neighbors . We have put ourself under a 16" rule years ago and the neighbors agreed to do the same . Now ever one has good deer to shoot at . Think about it , 13" is 2 inches smaller than a legal speck , and for the most part they get released with out regret or a second thought .

When we first started hunting that part of the state , the bucks my wife and I sighted the first season combined was 5 . Now it is normal to see atleast that many in one sitting . In the end you are just making it better for your kids and grand kids . Isn't that what we are all wanting to do anyway ? 

Let the little ones go now , and in a season or 2 you will be very glad that you did .

The next arguement is " But I am a meat hunter " .... We are all meat hunters . In most of east texas counties , it is a one buck & no does , unless you get the does during bow season or have the proper permits . If you are a true meat hunter would it be better to put that one tag on a deer that is mature and weighs double what most yearlings that most so called "meat hunters " are shooting ? 

Not to offend anyone , but for the most part when someone says they are a meat hunter it translates to " I'm a trigger happy fool that will not stop after I get that one deer anyway " . We try to keep those people off our lease . If you are just wanting meat go on a managment doe slaughter in the hill country . Its much cheaper ( $100 a doe ) and you will actually be doing the herd some good .

Vote yes , you will never regret it 3 years down the road .

Just my 2 cents

Chris


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## albert white (Feb 3, 2008)

VOTE YES, your chances of killing a "good" buck someday are very slim if you continue to kill the smaller ones. If your lane is narrow and you can't get a shot because you couldn't determine the width, sorry. I hate to hear hunters say that their lanes/woods only allow for "quick" shots. I've been hunting in East Texas under low fence since the late 60's on a 300 acre tract surrounded by hunters with the same views as myself, you would be amazed at the bucks on my wall. If you just have to take a deer, take a doe(where allowed) You have to start somewhere, sometime.


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## albert white (Feb 3, 2008)

If you don't have the deer on your property, make it more attractive to them, they will come. If you are not competing with the surrounding property owners in regards to food plots, feeders etc., they will have the deer. Too often people just want to hunt, rather than attract. Yes, I know the fish are biting, but spend a little time this spring putting in some food plots. OK, I'm done now.


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## silverado 1 (Jul 21, 2007)

A lot of the deer in east texas are basket racks and that is all they ever will be, i thinck if this passes it will just hurt the deer population.


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## hogbuster (Feb 21, 2005)

I hunt in leon county and we have been holding out fdr 16 inches or better for several years. The property owner told me this past year he very surprised and very pleased with the deer we have been taking the past few years. We also started a co-op and getting more members every year. Let the young walk and you will be surprised.


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## kenforu (Mar 16, 2006)

For those of you who believe that their are no deer in East Texas yu are sadly mistaken. The deer population in that part of Texas is very dense but you have so much forest that they are very hard to see and the acron population keeps them from coming to the feeders. I have hunted in East Texas and West Texas and South Texas one of the largest bucks that I have seen came from east Texas. My father shot a 157 5/8" buck just east of Woodville and we saw many bucks that were from the 115 - 140". This bill would be the best thing for east Texas besides getting rid of the back woods hillbillies that hunt year round and shoot what ever they see that is a bigger problem. Eliminate the fools and put a restriction on the antlers you might have a chance in two to three years of actually killing a nice animal instead of just wishing you could see one. Sorry for the rant but it is a good thing and will help not only the heard but the future for our children.


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## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

For those of you who hunt narrow lanes and must make a quick judgement before shooting here is something that works for me you might try. I used to hunt an eleven foot well site access road that cut thru the middle of sixty acres of dense, thick post oak with heavy briar underbrush. Your only shot was in the lane. Hang a grunt call around your neck. As deer begin to cross, if it has some horns, raise the gun, give it a grunt or two, this usually makes the buck stop, his ears go in alert position, and he will look right in your direction. This makes it easy to judge width and also gives you 3 or 4 seconds of a stationary target. I also used to spread a small bag of peanuts or corn in the lane while wearing scent proof boots before each hunt. This usually makes them stop to take a sniff or bite of food as they cross.The grunt works 90% of the time. The trick is have your gun on the rest or bow at draw before you grunt.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

I hunt and have hunted E Texas most of my life and beings that we were in the Taxidermist Deer processing buss for yrs n yrs I know MANY others. If you remember back these same counties along with others went to 1 buck ONLY for a few yrs, if they would have gone this way then and kept the law as its been proposed they would have been way ahead today. 2 yrs prior to the 1 buck rule we had TPW bioligist at our shop for the opening 2 weeks ageing, weighing, and measuring all deer we got in and 90% of the deer were taken in S E Texas, I was told what was going to happen the second yr as they had the final stats on the prev season. I don't remember the exact #s BUT the yng (1 1/2-2 1/2)deer taken was close to 75% of the total deer taken and the new law would curtail that in the future and that it did BUT only for a few yrs as they went back to 2 bucks in my area. Yrs back MOST of your big hunting clubs around here were into protecting does and not releasing permits that were given by the TPW so basicly if a buck stood up he was shot and what gets me is they would ask "why cant we kill some good bucks" Starting a few yrs back I know of several clubs that went to horn restrictions before it was law and the results were outstanding to say the least, today there is a waiting list for these properties. I have some close friends (3 bro n 2sons) who hunt next to the Morre Plantation in Sabine Co that in the past 3 yrs have taken 5 bucks in excess of 145 with 1 going 159 last yr and this is a result of this law. This ain't rocket science its pure common sense, the proof that this is good is there, just look around some before throwing rocks. Don't expect good thing to happen in a yr but in 2 or 3 you mite be surprised BUT I won't be surprised in the least. IMO its several yrs behind. WW


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

You ever think that most of what your seeing is 1 or 2 1/2 y/o deer. I remember seeing small basket racks in Llano and Mason Co., but that has changed also. WW


silverado 1 said:


> A lot of the deer in east texas are basket racks and that is all they ever will be, i thinck if this passes it will just hurt the deer population.


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## Outcast (May 20, 2004)

Same ole mentality shows in some of these posts. We walk deer all the time in Polk...if it ain't old enough...let him walk. We see solid deer ALL season. Get off the "my neighbor's gonna shoot it" attitude and stop talking "no room to hunt" and display some patience. You might bag a real nice buck as a result. Do some work at your hunting spot...clear underbrush...trim low hanging limbs...try a ground blind in the thick stuff. IT WORKS. We spent time/money every year to make sure our areas are as we'd like them to be. It's part of the fun for us.

Good luck and good hunting!


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

When they first started the restrictions in Colorado County, it was REAL unpopular. Back then, a 10 point, 13" rack was considered a trophy that you had mounted & then dragged it all around to show your friends. Now we routinely laugh about them days... 

Most of us won't even think about harvesting a buck less that 4 1/2 years old & at least a 15-16" inside spread (min. 130 class). The extra age allows the animal to develop antlers to its fullest potential and allows it the opportunity to breed & thus improve the overall genetics of the herd. The difference 5 years later is truely amazing!!!


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## capn (Aug 11, 2005)

Everyone on here that favors it has mentioned the opportunity to shoot a mature deer with fully developed antlers. Well, what if you just don't care about antlers? Why should the state be able to force you to change the reasons you hunt? There are many hunters who would much prefer to take a younger animal (either sex). I'm not saying that I would pass up a true trophy if I happened across one, but as a casual deer hunter at best, I certainly don't hunt for them.

My biggest problem with imposing the antler restrictions in East Texas specifically is because of how restrictive the doe harvest is. In half of the counties you still cannot legally shoot a doe during rifle season without permits, in the other half you can't shoot one after Thanksgiving so few end up being shot because people are hunting the rut or are duck hunting. If you want a balanced age structure and herd, it makes no sense to restict doe harvest like that. Allow me to shoot a doe when I want, and I could care less about letting a buck walk. I'd prefer the young doe for eats and that will satisfy the hunter out there for the experience and/or the meat while simultaneously making the trophy hunter happy because the young buck walks. It's a win/win situation.

The second problem is that there is no exit strategy. My first buck was an old bruiser that had been eluding everyone for a few years. It was pouring rain, and my old man put me in a box blind more as a way of babysitting while he worked on the cabin. The rain did him in. He had a bad genetic trait for antlers apparently - with a six point rack that was about 9 inches wide - but was the biggest bodied and oldest deer anyone there had seen taken, including several sure nuff trophies. That deer would have been allowed to breed and die of old age, and throw sons that would have the same problem. I know for a FACT that many ranches in antler restricted counties solve this problem by shooting those older small racked bucks and pretending they missed, but I simply can't condone that as ethical. Unless the state figures out how to get out of this program after the age structure in the herd is balanced, this practise is going to be a problem.

I deer hunted for two days this year, on a small plot of family property in a buck only county. It was sad, going out knowing that I was praying to see a spike so I could put a deer in the freezer, since the west texas/hill country trips fell through. I would have gladly passed on the 5 point standing under the tree I had climbed to shoot one of the many does I saw.


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## Outcast (May 20, 2004)

I can understand where you're coming from but this is no different that size/slot limits for fish. There will never (imo) be an age req because it is too hard for many folks to come close on age and most of the time it is opinion based anyway. The antler restrictions is a "on the averages" way to develop better deer hunting for our future hunters. I agree that there has been some old deer as well as some monster deer taken that would have failed the rule. The key term is "averages".As far as doe are concerned, I believe the tactic that tpwd is using is due to lesser numbers (per the averages) than that of our western state counties. Nothing is perfect but ya gotta start somewhere. The rules won't work for everybody but hopefully will work overall.
My .02


capn said:


> Everyone on here that favors it has mentioned the opportunity to shoot a mature deer with fully developed antlers. Well, what if you just don't care about antlers? Why should the state be able to force you to change the reasons you hunt? There are many hunters who would much prefer to take a younger animal (either sex). I'm not saying that I would pass up a true trophy if I happened across one, but as a casual deer hunter at best, I certainly don't hunt for them.
> My biggest problem with imposing the antler restrictions in East Texas specifically is because of how restrictive the doe harvest is. In half of the counties you still cannot legally shoot a doe during rifle season without permits, in the other half you can't shoot one after Thanksgiving so few end up being shot because people are hunting the rut or are duck hunting. If you want a balanced age structure and herd, it makes no sense to restict doe harvest like that. Allow me to shoot a doe when I want, and I could care less about letting a buck walk. I'd prefer the young doe for eats and that will satisfy the hunter out there for the experience and/or the meat while simultaneously making the trophy hunter happy because the young buck walks. It's a win/win situation.
> 
> The second problem is that there is no exit strategy. My first buck was an old bruiser that had been eluding everyone for a few years. It was pouring rain, and my old man put me in a box blind more as a way of babysitting while he worked on the cabin. The rain did him in. He had a bad genetic trait for antlers apparently - with a six point rack that was about 9 inches wide - but was the biggest bodied and oldest deer anyone there had seen taken, including several sure nuff trophies. That deer would have been allowed to breed and die of old age, and throw sons that would have the same problem. I know for a FACT that many ranches in antler restricted counties solve this problem by shooting those older small racked bucks and pretending they missed, but I simply can't condone that as ethical. Unless the state figures out how to get out of this program after the age structure in the herd is balanced, this practise is going to be a problem.
> ...


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## capn (Aug 11, 2005)

Outcast said:


> The antler restrictions is a "on the averages" way to develop better deer hunting for our future hunters.


The problem is, who gets to define the word "better"? Apparently, people that base the quality of their hunting experience on the size of the antlers, and I have a problem with that. The no does policy is, according to several biologists that I've spoken with, more a problem of politics than biology. The landowners are old timers and still believe that you shouldn't shoot does so they can have babies. They've managed to get limited doe harvest in only some counties.

I firmly believe that you could solve the problem by going to a one deer county or two deer county - either sex. People out to put meat in the freezer can fill a tag on a doe instead of feeling they have to shoot a forkhorn, and people hunting bucks can hold out for a better buck if they want. But instead, TPWD is trying to appease the rich landowners politically, and the horn hunters thru antler restrictions.

Oh, and you mention averages, and are of courst suggestion (and accurately so) that averages will say most older deer will be wider than 13 inches eventually. The problem is, genetically speaking if you don't cull the non-wide deer, they become a larger percentage of the population over time. That by definition changes the averages. It's the same concept as taking out 8 points or deer with no brow tines on more heavily managed ranches in other areas of the state. Of course that average can't be impacted in a big way for several years, but eventually it sure can. That's why there is a need for an exit strategy down the road. If there isn't, otherwise legal and ethical people will take care of that problem on their own, illegally.


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## Aggiewes (Jan 10, 2005)

silverado 1 said:


> A lot of the deer in east texas are basket racks and that is all they ever will be, i thinck if this passes it will just hurt the deer population.


The data says that only 4% of 4.5 year old bucks are less than 13 inches. Nature only has 4% of the bucks in that category. I don't think that is a problem. Plus, we aren't killing every other buck out there and leaving these guys as the only breeders.....


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

I hunted outside Trinity for 3 years, one season we stopped at 
Talents in Riverside and talked t othe state biologist about this very thing.

The deer he aged, averaged 3 1/2 most being 2 1/2 , the oldest he had seen the last few years were 5 1/2.

you want a trophy buck, you have to let em grow, your neighbor has the "if it has horns shoot it" rule.............now your into the, if we don't shoot it they will, scenario

the state horn rule takes this out of the equation, except poaching and spotlighting.

shoot the old spikes, we had millions of em.

we got this rule in Lamapassas, a few years back , it has been a huge improvement.


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## SouthWind (Feb 13, 2008)

Best thing that happen to Colorado County. 

Deer herd has made a remarkable comeback. 

It is good to see the deer make it to there maximum potential.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

I agree with you capn, that is a drawback with this program. We too have a few "freaks" that we don't want breeding. In our co-op, a majority number of us had hoped that we would be allowed to take a couple of "misfits" in liu of the normal allotment of a trophy + a spike & talked to the biologist about this to no avail. Although this IS an issue to a number of us, you can hardly say that the program is a failure. It is a step in the right direction.

In the earlier years of the antler restriction, many of us opted to harvested only spikes to allow the better bucks to multiply. While it is true that "you don't eat antlers", many people hunt for trophies, as well as meat. If you are a member of a co-op (at least in our county), you have doe tags (the number of which is based on your acreage) so there has NEVER has been a shortage of meat. For example, in a typical year, my wife & I harvest a total of 4 bucks & at least 2 does.

Five years ago, bucks like these were only available elsewhere.

* Colorado County Bucks (2007)*
 
*[url="http://www.ccwma.org/Photos/2006/bucks2006/bucks2006.html"] Colorado County Bucks (2006)*[/url]


Just my 2 cents worth....


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

I somewhat agree on the doe situtation BUT where the law is in effect now the doe #s are not that high. Where I live (Hardin Co) we have so many does there are more than a few that go unbred or get bred so late spikes are the byproduct. On part of the land I hunt in Hardin Co we went to LAMPS last yr so as to watch and see what does needed to be taken out, we control another pc of property that borders it thats regulated by the old law concerning does. Needless to say we hammered the does last yr but there were some hunters that still hold on to the 'old ways' and I took up the slack with the permits on the ones that stepped over the line. I think E Tex hunters need to get their priorities in order, if you just want to kill something shoot the first doe you see and then wait, better yet take up archery and add another 30 days of hunting. I don't buck hunt in Hardin Co because of this problem, I go north where the horn restriction is in effect. BTW the property in Hardin Co we control will be does ONLY next yr so one way or the other a horn restriction will be in effect. WW


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## Dani California (Jul 20, 2006)

Kind of reminds me of when they made us quit using dogs in Polk Co. There was some good deer killed up on the lease where I hunt in Tyler co. I'm glad I read your post. I have to agree it will do some major good. Waiting to see the effects is the hardest part.

Biggie



wet dreams said:


> I hunt and have hunted E Texas most of my life and beings that we were in the Taxidermist Deer processing buss for yrs n yrs I know MANY others. If you remember back these same counties along with others went to 1 buck ONLY for a few yrs, if they would have gone this way then and kept the law as its been proposed they would have been way ahead today. 2 yrs prior to the 1 buck rule we had TPW bioligist at our shop for the opening 2 weeks ageing, weighing, and measuring all deer we got in and 90% of the deer were taken in S E Texas, I was told what was going to happen the second yr as they had the final stats on the prev season. I don't remember the exact #s BUT the yng (1 1/2-2 1/2)deer taken was close to 75% of the total deer taken and the new law would curtail that in the future and that it did BUT only for a few yrs as they went back to 2 bucks in my area. Yrs back MOST of your big hunting clubs around here were into protecting does and not releasing permits that were given by the TPW so basicly if a buck stood up he was shot and what gets me is they would ask "why cant we kill some good bucks" Starting a few yrs back I know of several clubs that went to horn restrictions before it was law and the results were outstanding to say the least, today there is a waiting list for these properties. I have some close friends (3 bro n 2sons) who hunt next to the Morre Plantation in Sabine Co that in the past 3 yrs have taken 5 bucks in excess of 145 with 1 going 159 last yr and this is a result of this law. This ain't rocket science its pure common sense, the proof that this is good is there, just look around some before throwing rocks. Don't expect good thing to happen in a yr but in 2 or 3 you mite be surprised BUT I won't be surprised in the least. IMO its several yrs behind. WW


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Concerning the bucks that 'will never be' sometimes you got to do what you got to do. I'm sure if they could any TPW bioligist would tell you the same. Its a loophole that cant be opened. WW


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## gundoctor (May 20, 2004)

The long range effect of this, is going to be higher leas price inflation for East Texas compared to the rest of the state. 
Land owners will figure out they can charge more for better bucks.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

a buck breeds less than 10 does a season, most average about 4-6.

if you shoot off all the young bucks, you will never have any chance to look for improved genetics in your herd

this gives you a reason to take the inferior deer first year or 2

also would be good to readjust the doe permits and seasons by county


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## haparks (Apr 12, 2006)

i hope i dont get killed by any one but i like the new law--example i had been hunting hard all season long not seeing any deer the first 8 i saw was a basket rack--being that i hunt for meat i would have shot it if it werent fer the new 13 in min by passing up that deer 30 min later i get the nicest deer of my life but it tasted bad so here i come fer does


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## bowhunterhowell (Jul 17, 2005)

gundoctor said:


> The long range effect of this, is going to be higher leas price inflation for East Texas compared to the rest of the state.
> Land owners will figure out they can charge more for better bucks.


 Land owner love good hunter that take care of thier property ! The price may go up a little , but it tends to go right back into the place that we hunt . It also helps keep "kill'em all " hunters from getting on .

We do pay a little more (and i do mean a little) for our place in leon county now , but nothing that compares to souuth texas or any of the big antler counties . Do to our ethics and our patience ,we now kill the same quallity deer as they do . It is a small pice to pay . We can now take our kids out on a hunt where they see plenty to keep their interst up . They get to see plenty of quallity and quanity . Its not like it was when I was just starting out . I'll never for get my uncles words " Shoot the first one you see , you may not get the chance at another one for a year or two ". Sad thing is , he was right . Back then any thing that had forked antlers was a " GOOD ONE " .

The facts are that south texas produces more spike bucks than in any other part of the state . They just let them grow a few more years . They may not ever make Boone & Crocket , but they do , for the most part make good deer . You kno the ones they sell as 130" eight points for $2500 . Most east texas hunter would die for a deer like that . All it takes is age .

East texas has great genetics , all it takes is some age . As soon as i get some pictures scanned , hogbuster and I will show you what age alone can do . All low fence and no protien feed in leon county .

Never for get , 50% of genetics come from the doe .


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## big john o (Aug 12, 2005)

I just dont like folks forcing their hunting objectives on me and my kids. We have succesfully managed our place for years, but my kids are getting old enough to hunt now. I remember when I was young, I could kill the buck I wanted. Now, if it dosent meet the rich folks standards you best not pull the trigger. The difference between 12 3/4", and 13" is imeasurable on the hoof. I want my kids to grow up hunting as I did, but they have to hunt to your standards, not mine. I understand the advantages to the 13'' rule, but my kids dont. The excitement of the hunt for them is under your expectations, not mine.


John


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

big john 0 "folks" aren't doing anything to you, the state is, the same state that imposes all of our game laws. And you know why they're doing the 13" rule in East Texas now? Because it's working in the other counties where it's been in force and so you'll have some deer that are over 2.5 years old in the future.

It is what it is, teach your children well.

TH


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

I've read through all the posts in this thread and have to say it is once more totally a matter if each of our opinions. We need to remember, I mean all of us need to remember that not everyone hunts for the same reasons or the same game for that matter. There are folks here that live to waterfowl hunt, but could care less about deer hunting. Then there are folks, like me that will jump at any chance to hunt, no matter the game.

Reading through some of the posts it is very plan to see that there is a belief of some that deer hunting is all about horns. This belief is far from the truth or they would just call it BUCK HUNTING. There are some folks that really could care less if they kill a trophy deer and that is because no matter how long you stew them horns you just can't eat them. Yes I was once caught up in the bigger the horn the better the deer frame of mind at one point in my hunting life. Nothing would do except them big horns, but let me tell you them deer with big horn are only good for sausage and I know a lot of you that is all you do with your deer, make sausage. Well there are some folks that enjoy a good grilled venison steak, me being one of those folks.

Today if I am going to shoot a buck, I want that buck to be 1.5 to 2.5 years old. Let the big older bucks breed while I'm munching down on little brother. Some will say, just shoot doe, and that is well in fine as yes I would perfer a good doe over even a young buck any day. Problem is there are counties that will go under this restriction that have no doe hunting. Sure there is a fix to all this, spend more money and get on a lease where you can shoot doe. Problem there is all the folks that want big horns have driven the price up so much that it isn't worth the cost to just go to shoot doe. I can go to HEB and buy beef for a year and still have enough money for beer for a year at the cost of most leases.

Don't get me wrong now. I know why they are putting this law in place and as I have always done I'll follow the law to the letter. However, this new law is really only going to help give the big horns folks their big horns, and with bigger horns come bigger prices. So you big horn guys, I wish you luck in your quest for your trophy, but at the same time you guys need to remember you are not the only game in town and quit knocking those of us that are truly out there just to put meat in the freezer.


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## bowhunterhowell (Jul 17, 2005)

Trophy hunting or not . The reason this law is being put in place is that the deer herd in these counties have been shot out . Its not quallity that the state is trying to put in place . I's more about getting the deer herd back to the nubers that they should be . Trust me , we have plenty of young bucks that fall into the leagle catagory . It is so our kids will have deer to hunt in the future .


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

bountyhunter said:


> this new law is really only going to help give the big horns folks their big horns, and with bigger horns come bigger prices. So you big horn guys, I wish you luck in your quest for your trophy, but at the same time you guys need to remember you are not the only game in town and quit knocking those of us that are truly out there just to put meat in the freezer.


I agree, antlers are part of it, however, I don't believe that is the primary reason for the 13" restriction and or buck only counties. As with everything, there are at least 2 sides to every story.... The state is attempting to maintain the deer herd by managing buck to doe ratios (1:1) and managing the age groups within the herd. TPWD's reasoning for implementing the antler restriction is to reduce the harvest pressure on young bucks and improve the overall age structure of the buck herd by allowing more deer to reach at least 3½ years of age before they become legal to shoot.

Whether a person agrees with it or not, there is nor denying that this program IS achieving this goal, thus ensuring that future generations (our kids/grandkids) will have a viable (and sustainable) deer herd to hunt. Comments such as "I just dont like folks forcing their hunting objectives on me and my kids" is an example of what I'm talking about. Some folks appear to be short-sighted and for lack of a better word(s), selfish or undisciplined... and that is exactly why many of you don't see ample deer during the hunting season. The lack of restraint (in the area of selectively harvesting a resource) is the source of your problem, not the state (IMHO).

The following article may help in explaining the goals. Deer Management

Another good article is about the purpose/goals of co-ops: 
A Guide for Wildlife Management Associations and Co-ops


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## Outcast (May 20, 2004)

I'll say it again...It's no different than size/slot limits for fish. It's called wildlife management. I get kinda sick seeing a 1.5 yr old buck or a 1.5 yr old doe hit the ground before they have a chance to contribute to the herd. I think it is possible that some of the reasoning stated in previous posts is just to make someone that "shoots what they see" feel better. I know that for me and my son...I will teach him wildlife conservation/preservation while all the while teaching him the joy of being in the woods with family and friends. I will teach him about taking an animal ethically and legally. He will never be taught the "shoot what you see" mentallity. Beef is cheaper...I'm not hunting to survive (fortunately). That being said, if it's only about the meat...I'll be at Krogers getting some grade A beef that will in fact be cheaper and easier. 

Good hunting and take a kid with you when you go.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

CoastalOutfitters said:


> a buck breeds less than 10 does a season, most average about 4-6.
> 
> I'm thinking some studies show its closer to 2. WW


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## big john o (Aug 12, 2005)

w_r_ranch said:


> Some folks appear to be short-sighted and for lack of a better word(s), selfish or undisciplined... and that is exactly why many of you don't see ample deer during the hunting season. The lack of restraint (in the area of selectively harvesting a resource) is the source of your problem, not the state (IMHO).
> 
> We hunt in East Texas (Alto). The deer on the right is the buck I shot this year. The one on the left is my unkle's. The smaller one was 13 3/4'', and mine was 20 1/4. My unkle has this deer on the wall in his living room and is very proud of it (although it was probably only a 2.5 year old deer). This was the first deer he had ever shot, and the smile on his face when he made it back to camp was priceless. I agree with 13'' as a standard, but not a rule. We have been activly managing our place on our own (even before the 13'' rule) selectivly taking only mature deer, and seeing the rewards.
> 
> I still dont think these management tactics should be enforced by law. If my kids decide to hunt, I want them to be able to take a buck they think is a "brute" whether I think so or not. It gets them excited about hunting, and hopefully one day will grow to be as passionate about the outdoors as I am.


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

bowhunterhowell said:


> Trophy hunting or not . The reason this law is being put in place is that the deer herd in these counties have been shot out . Its not quallity that the state is trying to put in place . I's more about getting the deer herd back to the nubers that they should be . Trust me , we have plenty of young bucks that fall into the leagle catagory . It is so our kids will have deer to hunt in the future .





w_r_ranch said:


> I agree, antlers are part of it, however, I don't believe that is the primary reason for the 13" restriction and or buck only counties. As with everything, there are at least 2 sides to every story.... The state is attempting to maintain the deer herd by managing buck to doe ratios (1:1) and managing the age groups within the herd. TPWD's reasoning for implementing the antler restriction is to reduce the harvest pressure on young bucks and improve the overall age structure of the buck herd by allowing more deer to reach at least 3½ years of age before they become legal to shoot.
> 
> Whether a person agrees with it or not, there is nor denying that this program IS achieving this goal, thus ensuring that future generations (our kids/grandkids) will have a viable (and sustainable) deer herd to hunt. Comments such as "I just dont like folks forcing their hunting objectives on me and my kids" is an example of what I'm talking about. Some folks appear to be short-sighted and for lack of a better word(s), selfish or undisciplined... and that is exactly why many of you don't see ample deer during the hunting season. The lack of restraint (in the area of selectively harvesting a resource) is the source of your problem, not the state (IMHO).
> 
> ...


Did I say I was against the new law? *NO*

Did I say it wouldn't be good for the overall herd? *NO*

Did I say I didn't understand the reasoning behind the new law? *NO*

All I was doing was explaining why some folks like myself don't want to shoot an old buck. All you folks are seeing is one side of the story and I was giving the another point, but I see if I try to explain why some like shooting younger deer then I am in the Kill them All class.

So y'all enjoy your horns on the wall, and all that sausage cause I can label you also!


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## capn (Aug 11, 2005)

bountyhunter said:


> All I was doing was explaining why some folks like myself don't want to shoot an old buck. All you folks are seeing is one side of the story and I was giving the another point, but I see if I try to explain why some like shooting younger deer then I am in the Kill them All class.


Thank you. Folks don't seem to understand that deer management is not a new concept, nor is letting deer age, etc. But hunting for the experience of hunting and eating something that you yourself have hunted is not new either!

First to the comparison of fisheries management - it is NOTHING like fisheries management. Until there are restrictions in place that say you can't string up a female redfish, managing a deer herd and a fish stock are two opposite sides of a coin.

Second to comparing hunting for meat to going to a grocery store and buying beef, please be serious. To me, this says "my reason for hunting is acceptable, your reason for hunting is a joke." I love to eat wild game, and specifically I love to eat wild game that I have personally put in the freezer. No one catches fish that taste as good to me as what I've caught, nobody shoots ducks that taste as good around a jalapeno, and nobody shoots deer with more tender steaks. Eating the game you take is as much a part of the experience of hunting to me as pulling the trigger is. There is a special pride in putting meat on the table for your family. Any one can buy it from Krogers or go to a steakhouse, but not anyone can go out and find a wild animal, kill it, clean it, prepare it, cook it, and then serve it.

While I do enjoy putting an old 8 or 10 point's antlers on the wall, I enjoy putting a young deer's meat on the table even more so.

Again, I have no problem with buck restrictions if the harvest of does is legalized. But the state can not convince me that they are truly managing the herd for structure and not antlers when it's still not legal to shoot a doe.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

big john o said:


> I agree with 13'' as a standard, but not a rule. We have been activly managing our place on our own (even before the 13'' rule) selectivly taking only mature deer, and seeing the rewards.
> 
> I still dont think these management tactics should be enforced by law.


First off, I congratulate you on harvesting a good buck. Since you say you actively manage your place, I will assume that you are also teaching your kids the reasons & benefits of doing so.....

Having said that, is your only problem your unwillingness to accept the fact that the state is enforcing this program because "others" have no restraint and "shot out" areas of the state??? Do you think that everybody in our state exhibits good wildlife management practices???

Do you also not see the reason for any other laws (min. size or limits, speeding in school zones, chemical dumping)??? We have laws for a reason and the reason is many people don't have the common sense to pour ****** out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole or they just don't care about the next person...

If you still disagree with it fine, feel free to offer an alternative solution to ensure that the deer herd remains viable & sustainable for the future. I 'm sure that many of us would like to hear what you have to offer... especially if it is better at achieving the goal than the present program.

Sorry, for "sounding off" but this is the exact same attitude that one of my "neighbors" exhibits during hunting season (which is to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, wherever he wants).... Your comment just struck a nerve with me...


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## Aggiewes (Jan 10, 2005)

I agree with WR Ranch. Another benefit of this law is that it helps with the "out of control neighbors" who will shoot whatever/whenever and invite their friends to do the same with no regard to how big their place is and what the proper harvest ratio is.

If we left it up to the fisherman/hunter/landowner to manage the fisheries/game populations without regulation, we would have a mess on our hands.


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## Boomer (May 24, 2004)

I have stayed on the fence for awhile on this one but do have a few comments. My understanding from reading the TP&W analysis of implementing this rule when they did it for Colorado County oh so many years ago now was that they were not trying to grow bigger antlers but rather trying to improve the overall age structure of the herd. Improving the overall age structure simply creates a stronger herd of animals. The offshoot of improving the age class of deer is better antlers. Since noone is really that good at aging deer on the hoof, the only means they had for improving the age class was the antler restrictions. For those that are meat hunters, you can still shoot spikes or deer with one full antler and one spiked antler. Everyone should be happy regardless of the category of hunter. We own land five miles west of Garwood in Colorado County (for well over 20 yrs now). When we first purchased the place we were just meat hunters, happy to shoot anything that came out since we bought the place (a rice farm with several creeks traversing the property) primarily for duck and goose hunting. The deer hunting was just something to pass the time when the bird hunting was no good. We are surrounded by other farmers who are categorized as meat hunters. We also own land in S. Texas that we use for trophy hunting. When the new rules came out for us around 5+ years ago now we were not enthusiastic. However, now that they have been in place for awhile and have been followed by all of our neighbors it is truly amazing what we see. We used to never see anything over an eight pointer. In fact, seeing an 8 pointer would get everyone very excited. Now, we regularly see many more bucks than ever before and we regularly see tens and even a few twelves. We have deer over 130 class now that would have never seen the light of day. Our deer herd has been tremendously improved both in quantity and quality. We are now producing more bucks simply by letting the ones that don't meet the new standards to pass and breed. I still don't like the fact we can't shoot does since we are overrun with does and we wish they would change that rule but I am completely in favor of the new regs. All I can say is give is some time and I truly believe you will be blown away by the results. We are still simply meat hunters when it comes to Garwood but we see so many more bucks and some with exceptional racks that it makes the meat hunt more enjoyable. Later.


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## big john o (Aug 12, 2005)

w_r_ranch said:


> First off, I congratulate you on harvesting a good buck. Since you say you actively manage your place, I will assume that you are also teaching your kids the reasons & benefits of doing so.....
> 
> Having said that, is your only problem your unwillingness to accept the fact that the state is enforcing this program because "others" have no restraint and "shot out" areas of the state??? Do you think that everybody in our state exhibits good wildlife management practices???
> 
> ...


Not only do I understand your view, I agree 100%. I simply want my kids to have the same opertunity as I did.

Was your fist buck over 13''? Mine wasn't, but I thought he was a giant and my dad told me no different. That one experiance captured a bond with my dad that I would like to relive with my kids.

Maybe the solution is to have an age limit for taking a buck under 13''?


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## Outcast (May 20, 2004)

I agree to disagree.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

wet dreams said:


> CoastalOutfitters said:
> 
> 
> > a buck breeds less than 10 does a season, most average about 4-6.
> ...


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

big john o said:


> Not only do I understand your view, I agree 100%. I simply want my kids to have the same opertunity as I did.
> 
> Was your fist buck over 13''? Mine wasn't, but I thought he was a giant and my dad told me no different. That one experiance captured a bond with my dad that I would like to relive with my kids.
> 
> Maybe the solution is to have an age limit for taking a buck under 13''?


you uncles buck was well outside his ears and over 13" , so it actually wasn't an issue

it took our place in Lampassas 2 years to show drastic improvements, you could still shoot the bigger legal bucks during that time as well as the spikes and odd horns per the regs...believe me, it wasn't a big issue..........still plenty of venison for everyone, kids shot does and spikes stc..........


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

big john o said:


> I simply want my kids to have the same opertunity as I did.
> 
> Was your fist buck over 13''? Mine wasn't


Do you really want your kids to shoot a small buck like you did??? If so, shoot a spike. That is totally within the scope of the antler restriction law, no problem. I would have thought that you would want your kids to have a BETTER opportunity than we had....

By the way, my first buck was a spike (that was what grandpa said to shoot & that is exactly what I did 49 yrs ago.). It certainly did not diminish my sense of accomplishment that I can remember... We did share a beer afterwards, he was as proud as I was.



bountyhunter said:


> So y'all enjoy your horns on the wall, and all that sausage cause I can label you also!


I fully understand why you don't want to shoot an old buck. Under the current law you are free to harvest 2 spikes if you wish (no one is holding a gun to your head telling you that you have to harvest an older "trophy" buck). We shoot more spikes than trophies ourselves. We also harvest does of various ages for a reason too (take the time to read the articles I gave earlier to understand why).



bountyhunter said:


> this new law is really only going to help give the big horns folks their big horns, and with bigger horns come bigger prices. So you big horn guys, I wish you luck in your quest for your trophy, but at the same time you guys need to remember you are not the only game in town and quit knocking those of us that are truly out there just to put meat in the freezer.


Care to tell us how this law has inhibited your ability to "put meat in the freezer"?

And yes there are different perspectives on this subject, as I did point out numerous times already. Once again, read the articles and maybe you will see what you obviously missed the first time through.


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## big john o (Aug 12, 2005)

w_r_ranch said:


> Do you really want your kids to shoot a small buck like you did??? If so, shoot a spike. That is totally within the scope of the antler restriction law, no problem. I would have thought that you would want your kids to have a BETTER opportunity than we had....
> 
> By the way, my first buck was a spike (that was what grandpa said to shoot & that is exactly what I did 49 yrs ago.). It certainly did not diminish my sense of accomplishment that I can remember... We did share a beer afterwards, he was as proud as I was.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your the expert. Case closed.


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## capn (Aug 11, 2005)

w_r_ranch said:


> I would have thought that you would want your kids to have a BETTER opportunity than we had....


Define the word BETTER.







That's a big part of the problem, right there. Our definitions obviously vary.

Your argument hinges on the availablity of spikes and does for harvest, but I don't think you've been reading posts or actually considering the contrary points that are being made. A large percentage of the counties in question can NOT shoot does for meat, and spikes are not nearly as numerous in east Texas as other areas that are accustomed to heavy deer populations. Not to mention the fact that any spike that steps out is getting shot on site.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

capn said:


> Define the word BETTER.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The definition, as I understand this post, is 13" as established by the State of Texas. Big John made a statement & I played it against him because it was not a well thought out statement by him to begin with. And yes Big John, I am quite active in the wildlife management process. I, like many others, have been doing it prior to you being breast fed. Case closed.



capn said:


> Your argument hinges on the availablity of spikes and does for harvest, but I don't think you've been reading posts or actually considering the contrary points that are being made. A large percentage of the counties in question can NOT shoot does for meat, and spikes are not nearly as numerous in east Texas as other areas that are accustomed to heavy deer populations.


It is not my "arguement" at all. I fully understand what TPWD is trying to accomplish and why. I have tried to explain it and I have posted the links to articles to point out the what I already know in the hope of enlightening a few.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that counties that have a shortage of does cannot build a herd if the does are killed off to statisfy those that feel the have the "right" to shoot what they want, when they want, wherever they want crowd. That being the case, the state suspended doe harvesting in those counties until there are sufficent numbers to rebuild the herd. The data is collected each year (August in my county) and the results are presented to the members of each WMA's fall meeting after which doe tags may or may not be distributed.

Whining & crying about this will not make does magically appear again, that takes time and nothing you or I or anybody else can change that fact. Is that clear enough for you???

I didn't post here to start an arguement, but to inform. If that is a problem for some, forget I said anything. Feel free to sit in your stands in the coming years wondering why you don't see any deer. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

Outcast said:


> I'll say it again...It's no different than size/slot limits for fish. It's called wildlife management. I get kinda sick seeing a 1.5 yr old buck or a 1.5 yr old doe hit the ground before they have a chance to contribute to the herd. I think it is possible that some of the reasoning stated in previous posts is just to make someone that "shoots what they see" feel better. I know that for me and my son...I will teach him wildlife conservation/preservation while all the while teaching him the joy of being in the woods with family and friends. I will teach him about taking an animal ethically and legally. He will never be taught the "shoot what you see" mentallity. Beef is cheaper...I'm not hunting to survive (fortunately). That being said, if it's only about the meat...I'll be at Krogers getting some grade A beef that will in fact be cheaper and easier.
> 
> Good hunting and take a kid with you when you go.


You know I wasn't going to reply to your post as it seems you know me far better than I know myself. Yep, I shoot anything and everything I can that's why I didn't take any deer this year. I passed on a total of 3 shots this year, one was during archery when a heathy older doe came in, but she had twin fawns that were still nursing. Dang by the way you paint me I should have killed all three, man what was I thinking. Second deer was also during archery and it was a spike that I really wanted to take, but he never presented me a good shot. Again not sure what happened there, the way you see me I should have just put an arrow in him anyway cause I have no self-control. Third deer was during December when we can't shoot doe, and though this deer was big bodied and I am 98% sure it was a buck, I didn't shoot because I could never see his head due to the brush, so he walked. Again I messed up and used the self-control that you have said I don't have.

My son also didn't take a deer this year as he didn't get a good shot during archery, and never saw anything he wanted to shoot during rifle. I must have really messed up when I was teaching him. He should have been throwing arrows and lead in all directions. I should have never taugh him to be a safe hunter or to follow the game laws and heaven knows I should have never taugh him about any game conservation/preservation.

Now the year before we each took one deer, mine a nasty 5 point that would be a dead ringer for a cull on most of your big management ranches but wouldn't be legal under this new law and my son's was a spike that was close to 3.5 years old. We decided not to take any more because we didn't need any more. We turned to hunting rabbits and squirrels the rest of the season again showing our total lack of self-control.

The bottom line here is don't preach to me about what or how I think, cause you don't know me!


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## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

Let me go get the popcorn-here we go again.


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## big john o (Aug 12, 2005)

w_r_ranch said:


> The definition, as I understand this post, is 13" as established by the State of Texas. Big John made a statement & I played it against him because it was not a well thought out statement by him to begin with. And yes Big John, I am quite active in the wildlife management process. I, like many others, have been doing it prior to you being breast fed. Case closed.
> 
> It is not my "arguement" at all. I fully understand what TPWD is trying to accomplish and why. I have tried to explain it and I have posted the links to articles to point out the what I already know in the hope of enlightening a few.
> 
> ...


Ignorance is bliss?? I will agree with you on that sir.

No one is arguing with you. Seems the only opinion important here is yours.


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## hogbuster (Feb 21, 2005)

When I took over the lease I am on now [11 years ago] we saw more does than anything else. We saw lots of spikes and freak horns. We did not shoot a good buck for about 5 yrs. We shot freak horns and spikes. We wanted to shoot a lot of does but there was no open season on does. We talked with the biologist and got in the MLD management program so we could take off does. We asked them about taking the freak horns and they said that the could put us on a special season to shoot the freak horns, it would not have the 13 in. minimum. If you want to kill does contract the biologist in your county and set up the program.


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## bowhunterhowell (Jul 17, 2005)

Food for thuoght . In most of the counties where this has taken affect , they have been one buck counties for many years . Now they are 2 buck counties , in wich all legale hunter are allowed one 13"+ buck and 1 spike buck or 2 spike bucks . That alone should satisfy all meat hunters . You have the oppurtunity to double your havest . And for the folks that perfer to wait for a more mature , better qualty antlered buck , this law alone will more than double you oppurtunity at one off these deer . It will take a few short years , but trust it will happen . That should be enough to keep all hunter happy .

Another thought 

When the first five counties went under these mandatory restrictions , many state wildlife biogist were there collecting data on age , weight , over all health of the animals . It was just a trial run . Do to the data collected and the great out come of this study , there was a big boost in co-ops by hunter in other counties asking for the same laws to take effect in the counties they hunt in . 
None of this done soley by the state or the co-ops . They hold meetings open to the puplic to vioce your opinion . For or against the law , you should go to one of these meetings . I have . The state is not there to convince you to see it thier way . They listen . To an extent , the majority rules . These meetings also open the door to talks about doe days . We have tried to get them , but do to the majority do not want them . So no doe days for us . Poeple in our county remember when there were doe days , they remember the slaughter that happend . No does = no deer . No deer = no one to lease thier property , no one to offset the cost of thier property taxs . Everyone loses . 

In the end we can all win with laws like this .

Chris


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## Outcast (May 20, 2004)

I don't think I quoted you in that reply did I? I'm not here to argue...just stating my opinion just as you and others have done. Sorry if I offended you.

Have a nice day.

Brice Fuselier aka Outcast



bountyhunter said:


> You know I wasn't going to reply to your post as it seems you know me far better than I know myself. Yep, I shoot anything and everything I can that's why I didn't take any deer this year. I passed on a total of 3 shots this year, one was during archery when a heathy older doe came in, but she had twin fawns that were still nursing. Dang by the way you paint me I should have killed all three, man what was I thinking. Second deer was also during archery and it was a spike that I really wanted to take, but he never presented me a good shot. Again not sure what happened there, the way you see me I should have just put an arrow in him anyway cause I have no self-control. Third deer was during December when we can't shoot doe, and though this deer was big bodied and I am 98% sure it was a buck, I didn't shoot because I could never see his head due to the brush, so he walked. Again I messed up and used the self-control that you have said I don't have.
> 
> My son also didn't take a deer this year as he didn't get a good shot during archery, and never saw anything he wanted to shoot during rifle. I must have really messed up when I was teaching him. He should have been throwing arrows and lead in all directions. I should have never taugh him to be a safe hunter or to follow the game laws and heaven knows I should have never taugh him about any game conservation/preservation.
> 
> ...


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

Outcast said:


> I don't think I quoted you in that reply did I? I'm not here to argue...just stating my opinion just as you and others have done. Sorry if I offended you.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
> Brice Fuselier aka Outcast


No you didn't quote me, but look at your post and what you said and then look above it and mine is there and it looked like you were directing it a me. If you were not, then I'm the one that is sorry.

I am totally for a better herd, and I all for more deer in that herd. I just don't like how some explain it. Most come off as Better = Big Racks. This might not be what is meant but that is way it comes off. All we here is trophy, trophy, trophy and for some of us it gets old as does the judging the quality of the deer heard by listing the number of buck they take that are 140+. A lot of trophy or 140+ bucks doesn't always mean the total herd is healthy, in most cases it is but that should not be the only fact that is stated in regards to herd health.

So, like I've said before I'm not against this law but I do have some concerns that this is seems to be the states fix all action. Sure it has worked well so far as attested to by many folks, but that isn't a full proof plan across the board, but I guess we will see in a few years.

Take Care
Derek


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## roger1shot (Jul 28, 2004)

I've hunted Davy Crocket and Angelina National Forest for years.
Here's what ticks me off.
About 5 years ago the National Forest outlawed using corn.
Saying that this was drawing too many deer in one area,increasing the risk of CWD.
Give me a brake.
Let's see what would happen if the State came out and said that ALL feeding was Outlawed in the State of Texas,like in some states.
Man what a out cry would come out of all those hunting on a deer leases.
Before you post to my reply,Hunt on the National Forest Land without corn for one season and see how many deer you see,let alone bucks.
To me this is just another way to keep the price up on a deer lease. 
For he who has the gold rules.
If you want a trophy let the smaller deer walk,but if I want to shoot a smaller deer so be it.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Someone asked the def of 'better' well here is my def and BTW this is what I used to sway my hardheaded dad of 82. He was one that would shoot a buck standing with 50 does and he did it because it was a BUCK, bottomline, it didn't matter what was on the bucks head afterall it was a buck. I'm surely not going to sit here and say he didn't shoot does, he shot whatever the dogs were running and it didn't matter if it was June or midnite. The property we hunt (manage) we can take whoever and kill whatever BUT its overrun with does many of which are grown with no fawns. Over the last 5 yrs we have goten into several disagreements some which lead to cuss fights up until last yr. I have tried to get my dad to only let guest shoot does, he reply was they want a buck, well IMO they can go somewhere else. I told him he had 3 great grandsons that were going to start hunting in the next yr or so and they would have a >>>BETTER<<< chance on taking a mature deer for their first, but it would not happen with his way. He stood qietly a minute or so and replied "I've never looked at it that way". There have been several here against the new law and the reason being "I don't see that many deer or theres not that many" well have you ever thought if my neighbors were limited also maybe some good come come out of this. I have sat and listened to my dad and his now dead friends tell of riding for miles looking for a track to put the hounds on and this was in Hardin, Tyler, Polk, Jasper, Newton counties among others that you can now SEE deer out of a vehicle most anytime. WW


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Why is any lease bordering the National Forrest the most sought after in Texas, its not because there are fewer deer nor because they will come running to corn its that deer die of old age not over hunting, BTW I hunt on and next to the National Forrest and have many friends that do and have for yrs. WW


roger1shot said:


> I've hunted Davy Crocket and Angelina National Forest for years.
> Here's what ticks me off.
> About 5 years ago the National Forest outlawed using corn.
> Saying that this was drawing too many deer in one area,increasing the risk of CWD.
> ...


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

*White-tailed Deer*


Open Season: November 3-January 6. Buck bag limit: 2, to include no more than one with an inside spread of 13 inches or greater. Antlerless bag limit: 2. A legal buck deer is a deer having at least one unbranched antler, or an inside spread of 13 inches or greater. The inside spread requirement does not apply to to any buck having an unbranched antler. These provisions do not apply on properties for which Level 2 or Level 3 MLDPs have been issued. No permit is required to hunt antlerless deer unless MLDP antlerless permits have been issued for the tract of land.
this is for Lampassas county from last year.

they need to go to this statewide to limit the horn confusion. maybe 1 buck or doe in some areas , but the horn rule should be statewide.

try it for 2 years, then re-evaluate

I think it is safe to say that most 3-4 yr olds will be 13" inside if they get the chance, and there is plenty else if you need venison or let a kiddo shoot.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

This thread really is about the state's current/proposed hunting laws and can be broken down to basically 2 seperate issues:

1) The 13" restriction
2) The decision to not allow the harvesting of does

Let's look at the "overall" view of this thread thus far:

In favor: 17 (because they have seen or heard of the results)

Against: 7 (various reasons)

Don' care: 2 (neither for, nor against)

Let's look at the reason GIVEN for being AGAINST:

*Rainy (post #2)*
- Shooting lanes are narrow
- less daylight and makes it hard to see very far. 
- There aren't large herds of deer

*Chuck Richey (post # 3)
*- prefers to maintain the status quo, but not complaining

*Silverado (post #13)
- *complains that east texas deer are basket racks & that is all they ever will be

*gun doctor (post #31)
-* complaining that it will cause higher lease prices.

*big john (post #35, 42, 48, 53, 58)
*- Complaining that" I just dont like folks forcing their hunting objectives on me and my kids"
- Wants to shoot whatever he decides without state's intervention.

*capn (post #21, 23, 44, 54)
- *complains about how restrictive the doe harvest is
- claims "no exit strategy" but goes on about "I was praying to see a spike so I could put a deer in the freezer"
- complains that "the state can not convince me that they are truly managing the herd for structure and not antlers when it's still not legal to shoot a doe."
*
Bounty Hunter (post #37, 43, 56, 62)
*- Complains that "deer hunting is all about horns."
- Complains that this inhibits his ability to "put meat in the freezer".
- Complains that the law will inhibit his ability to "shoot younger deer".
- Complains about others explaining "wildlife management" to him and then goes on to complain that due to the shortage of deer "We turned to hunting rabbits and squirrels the rest of the season"

Conclusion:
- Some people just plain don't understand wildlife management.
- Some people don't want to understand wildlife management.
- Some people just like to complain. 
- Some people lack the ability to apply simple logic to problem solving.

*This is why the TPWD is doing it for you.*​


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## silverado 1 (Jul 21, 2007)

We understand wildlife management, this is not the way to do it. There is so much poaching going on in east texas it is not funny. TPWD needs to spend more time and effort on this problem and make the penalty stiffer when caught


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## Rainy (Jul 30, 2005)

Penalties for shooting a buck that does not measure 13" inside spread.

TP&W said that *the restitution cost* to you would be based on if the score is over 100 or under 100. If under 100 it will cost you $881.50 and if it is over a score of 100 it will cost you $881.50 PLUS so much for each score count over 100.

Then there is *the fine*. It can run from $25.00 to $500.00.

If the restriction is approved, I think I will probably just hunt for does, since none of my deer will stand there while I measure them! I cannot determine a half inch difference from the stand or even determine it precisely while looking at a rack on our wall never mind from 100 yards or more away.

As for being an East Texas hunter, we do not shoot just "anything that walks", and we *do *plant, feed, and all the other suggestions offered up here. I have hunted for over 35 years in all different situations. Of course there are bad apples, but they aren't just in East Texas. We do not have a pet herd either. We don't use electic feeders. But, we both get our deer every single year. I sure don't care for the meat from 4-5 year old bucks. Yes, people do hunt for meat, not to just hang antlers on the wall . We are excited as others over a great looking buck but we hunt for the freezer most of all. We get ours and for our kids freezer, too.

Rainy


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

If those individuals truly understood wildlife management, TPWD would not have had to impose these types of restrictions & I would not have posted:

"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that counties that have a shortage of does cannot build a herd if the does are killed off to statisfy those that feel the have the "right" to shoot what they want, when they want, wherever they want crowd. That being the case, the state suspended doe harvesting in those counties until there are sufficent numbers to rebuild the herd."

As far as you poaching comment, it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this thread (just "noise"). However, if you have specific information on poaching report it and claim the reward.

 ​


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

i never had any problem finding enough does or spikes in Trinity

we shot em just the same and held out for one good buck each, it really didn't matter

some years we just shot all spikes , they all look the same on a dinner plat................


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

POACHERS or OUTLAWS are all over Texas just started here in E Texas (lol) A poacher from E Texas hunts for >>meat<< if it turns out the deer he outlawed has horns thats a bonus as thats NOT what he was after. Out West or South they poach ONLY for BIG HORNS cut m off and leave the rest. I could deal with someone outlaw hunting for food but one that hunts for horns I can NOT accept. WW


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

What E Texas counties do not allow does to be taken? WW


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

trouble is the doe season is over at Thanksgiving and most people wanted to hunt their big buck first, and before you know it, doe season is gone.


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## big john o (Aug 12, 2005)

I hunt in Cherokee County

(1) doe during bow season - do not hunt with a bow (whole nother thread)
(1) doe during Thanksgiving weekend - spend the weekend with the family
(1) spike - all season - no one saw a spike last year
(1) 13'' or greater - all season 

*Note: cannot kill a doe without a permit.*

Here are my options. We see a lot of mature small-gnawly-antlered bucks under 13'' which should be taken out anyway (if the goal is to breed large anltered bucks). Most bucks we see (period) are within 2-4 weeks of the rut unless you use a tree climber (which I do but my kids are way too young).


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

w_r_ranch said:


> This thread really is about the state's current/proposed hunting laws and can be broken down to basically 2 seperate issues:





w_r_ranch said:


> 1) The 13" restriction
> 
> 2) The decision to not allow the harvesting of does
> 
> ...




Well, first off I can tell you don't read too good or you can't understand what you are reading. I am not against the law and here is the proof! 

From Post #37



bountyhunter said:


> Don't get me wrong now. I know why they are putting this law in place and as I have always done I'll follow the law to the letter.


From Post #43


bountyhunter said:


> Did I say I was against the new law? *NO*
> Did I say it wouldn't be good for the overall herd? *NO*
> Did I say I didn't understand the reasoning behind the new law? *NO*




From Post #62



bountyhunter said:


> So, like I've said before I'm not against this law but I do have some concerns that this is seems to be the states fix all action. Sure it has worked well so far as attested to by many folks, but that isn't a full proof plan across the board, but I guess we will see in a few years.


I said nothing about a shortage of deer and having to turn to rabbit and squirrel hunting. Here is what I said,




bountyhunter said:


> Now the year before we each took one deer, mine a nasty 5 point that would be a dead ringer for a cull on most of your big management ranches but wouldn't be legal under this new law and my son's was a spike that was close to 3.5 years old. We decided not to take any more because we didn't need any more. We turned to hunting rabbits and squirrels the rest of the season again showing our total lack of self-control.


I did say I perferred doe or younger bucks for the freezer and with our limited time to kill doe this new law would further limit my chances to put my perferred meat in the freezer, but that is just what I perfer like you perfer to shoot bucks with big horns.

Maybe you should go back and read all the posts in this thread a lot closer because from this post here I can tell you didn't the first time!!!!!!!!!


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## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

big john o said:


> I hunt in Cherokee County
> 
> (1) doe during bow season - do not hunt with a bow (whole nother thread)
> (1) doe during Thanksgiving weekend - spend the weekend with the family
> ...


 Big John O- Are you sure the bucks you are seeing with less than 13" spreads are mature bucks. I have never seen a 4.5 or 5.5 year old buck in North Texas that was not wider than 13". I saw an old spike or two when I hunted in Junction. I never hunted in East Texas. I believe a study done a few years back concluded that 96% of mature bucks with proper nutrition will exceed 13" spreads. Less than 4% do not. I do not know where this study was done because I read it years ago, but it was done in a high fence with only captive native genetics. I know many bucks in East Texas have good racks so I kinda think most all will exceed 13" with maturity and nutrition. A 3.5 year old is not a mature buck. Where I hunt a 3.5 year old usually has a 14 to 16" spread.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

bountyhunter said:


> Well, first off I can tell you don't read too good or you can't understand what you are reading. I am not against the law and here is the proof!
> 
> From Post #37
> Quote:
> ...


 *Well bounty hunter, apparently your reading comprehensions skills aren't quite up to your own high standards 







. Show us where I said "you were against the new law" and where I said "you said it wouldn't be good for the overall herd". Tell us the exact post number. **







*
* 
I absolutely, positively DID say that that "you didn't understand the reasoning behind the new law" based on your saying" in post #37:*

*bountyhunter: "Don't get me wrong now. I know why they are putting this law in place and as I have always done I'll follow the law to the letter. However, this new law is really only going to help give the big horns folks their big horns"*



bountyhunter said:


> From Post #62
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bountyhunter*
> _So, like I've said before I'm not against this law but I do have some concerns that this is seems to be the states fix all action. Sure it has worked well so far as attested to by many folks, but that isn't a full proof plan across the board, but I guess we will see in a few years._


 *So you said before... but then you also said in post #62:*

*bountyhunter: "I just don't like how some explain it. Most come off as Better = Big Racks. This might not be what is meant but that is way it comes off. All we here is trophy, trophy, trophy and for some of us it gets old"

* *The fact is NO ONE ELSE keyed on "bigger racks" like you. Others simply stated the obvious that as deer age, they develop more antler and since the TPWD stated purpose for implementing the antler restriction is to reduce the harvest pressure on young bucks and improve the overall age structure of the buck herd by allowing more deer to reach at least 3½ years of age before they become legal to shoot. Read what I wrote in post number 39... 
**
By the way, I also said in post #45, "feel free to offer an alternative solution to ensure that the deer herd remains viable & sustainable for the future. I 'm sure that many of us would like to hear what you have to offer... especially if it is better at achieving the goal than the present program." **Well bountyhunter, where is your alternative solution??? Where I come from, if you're going to whine & cry about something, you best have a suggestion to offer on accomplishing the mission. *



bountyhunter said:


> I said nothing about a shortage of deer and having to turn to rabbit and squirrel hunting. Here is what I said,
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bountyhunter*
> _Now the year before we each took one deer, mine a nasty 5 point that would be a dead ringer for a cull on most of your big management ranches but wouldn't be legal under this new law and my son's was a spike that was close to 3.5 years old. We decided not to take any more because we didn't need any more. We turned to hunting rabbits and squirrels the rest of the season again showing our total lack of self-control._


*Cherry pickin' on your comments???? You posted in #56:

bountyhunter: "I passed on a total of 3 shots this year, one was during archery when a heathy older doe came in, . Second deer was also during archery and it was a spike that I really wanted to take, but he never presented me a good shot and the third deer was during December when we can't shoot doe

My son also didn't take a deer this year as he didn't get a good shot during archery, and never saw anything he wanted to shoot during rifle. "

Sounds like ya'll have a shortage of deer to me... it is either that or ya'll don't hunt very much. *







*

Also look at the last sentence of the 2nd last paragragh... What does that say....

bountyhunter: "We turned to hunting rabbits and squirrels the rest of the season"

You must have forgotten you said that huh??? What else did you forget that you said? *








*
Let's see, in post #5 you said:

bountyhunter: "I can count the totally number of deer I saw all season on my hands."

Yep, that cinches it for me, you have a shortage of deer. You said so twice. *








*
*



bountyhunter said:


> Maybe you should go back and read all the posts in this thread a lot closer because from this post here I can tell you didn't the first time!!!!!!!!!


*

Follow you own advice bountyhunter and this time try doing it with your eyes open. *








* 
Now, let me give you a piece of advice... A person that finds himself in a hole should be smart enough to stop digging without another person having to tell him....

Do yourself a favor & put the shovel down. *


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

That's it for me, I was ready to quit this morning. If derek & I offended anyone with our immature little exchange, please forgive us. It won't happen again.


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## dolch (Aug 19, 2005)

w_r_ranch said:


> Conclusion:
> - Some people just plain don't understand wildlife management.
> - Some people don't want to understand wildlife management.
> - Some people just like to complain.
> ...


I couldn't have said it better myself. E. Tx i just different. I have only met one person that hunts in one of the original 5 counties (Lavaca, Colorado, .......) that thinks this law was not the best thing that happened to there deer herd. All agree (except one) that they are seeing more deer (aka, more opportunities) then ever before. Most hunters say "i just want to see deer and hopefully get a shot some time".

Well...................... this system works, and works well.

Give it a try, you won't be disappointed.


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## Andy_Holland_25 (Aug 8, 2007)

This is a great program, but it will not stop all of the sorry no good poachers who peach other peoples property...

The results will be seen in the coming years!


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## Dani California (Jul 20, 2006)

Question for you guys:

How long will it take to start to see some difference?? How many years? I hunt in Tyler County and have seen some nice bucks killed there this year. I'm just wondering how long it will take to see the changes work?
Will the new 13 inch rule put more pressure on the does? 

Biggie:biggrin:


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

it takes 2 years, you pretty much will protect the 2 1/2 yr age class forever, some 3 1/2 , etc....you still will be able to shoot "legal" bucks and spikes, it's not like the season is slammed closed.

the theory is that you are letting your marginal young bucks walk to grow another year.

weather, heat, forage issues aside, it should make a huge difference, it did for us.

we had a neighbor that killed 26 deer off 25 acres in Lampassas, it pretty much shut that down...........they brought friends in and tagged out. ...pathetic...


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## Boomer (May 24, 2004)

You can go back and read my earlier post but for us in Colorado County west of Garwood, we saw the results in two years. One of the things I have noticed from alot of the posts for those against the rules is that they rarely see a buck and that is why they shoot every buck they see. If you go back to my original post you will notice that one of the effects of the new regs is that you will see a dramatic increase in the number of bucks in your area. This should be an added bonus to those guys who rarely see a buck. Let the younger ones (as well as the ones that don't meet the 13inch rule) live longer and do more breeding results in more bucks in your area. I just can't say enough positive things about the new regs. We are seeing better bucks and more importantly a dramatic increase in the number of bucks. We have poachers in our area just like everywhere else but we have good neighbors that do abide by the rules. With the increase in the number of bucks, even with the poachers getting their share, we still have more bucks than prior to the implementation of the regs. Allow the rules to go into effect (whether you are a trophy hunter or a meat hunter) and both sides will agree it will have a positive effect on the herd.


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## Nokillbill (Nov 27, 2006)

if it leagle and i want it im gonna shoot it. yall do what ever yall want


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## Rainy (Jul 30, 2005)

*Scoping meeting dates changed.*

The information in the first Houston Chronicle article are not correct. A new article in the Chronicle now has the correct meeting dates for those interested in going to the meeting.

*Antler restrictions *

• *March **13: *Livingston, Polk County Courthouse, District Courtroom, 101 W.Church St.; 7 p.m.

• *March 18: *Jasper, Jasper County Courthouse, County Courtroom, 121 N. Austin; 7 p.m.

• *March 25: *Conroe, Montgomery County Central Library, 105 I-45 North; 7 p.m.

• *March **27: *Kountze, Hardin County Courthouse, West Wing Courtroom, 300 Monroe; 7 p.m.


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## Galveston Yankee (May 24, 2004)

Dani California said:


> Question for you guys:
> 
> How long will it take to start to see some difference?? How many years? I hunt in Tyler County and have seen some nice bucks killed there this year. I'm just wondering how long it will take to see the changes work?
> Will the new 13 inch rule put more pressure on the does?
> ...


Most of east Texas has a ratio of 4 or more does to every buck. It should be more like 1.3 does to each buck which is pretty close to human species ratios. When we hunted on Camden Hunt Club (which went to the LAMPS program the year we got on without telilng us first!), the club almost lost the LAMPS because they did not kill ENOUGH does the first year. The second year they killed a bit more. We got off after that. The third year they took 41 bucks with 13" spreads opening week, if I remember correctly.

The problem with this restirction in much of East Texas is that there is very little time or room along shooting lanes to get a good look at the rack. Those bucks have a problem with stopping for a pose for us to measure their racks. Rainy had a shooting lane that was not much wider than the length of a decent buck.

Most of the "mature" bucks in East Texas got to be mature because they were smart enough to remain in the woods. I do not believe that there is enough data to support this restriction. I do think that there should be a push to tag out on does, though, or have taking does legal throughout the hunting season.

I don't know if we'll continue to hunt if this 13" restriction goes into effect. I seriously doubt that my wife will be able to judge the spread properly and we can't afford the financial hit for shooting an underaged deer.

GY


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

You will be surprised how many legal deer you will have after just one season and for sure long after the first season. We don't have antler restrictions in West Texas but we DID have a serious buck-doe ratio problem. It was nothing 20 years ago to see 20-25 does at each stand we had. You were lucky to shoot a buck over 15"s each year. We started thinning the does out well before TPWD started the MLD programs and have had a bigtime turnaround in both deer size and antlers. The does have gotten bigger just as have the bucks. It is a rule on our lease that you must kill at least 2 does each year. We usually kill about 25-30 doe with 12 hunters on about 2000 acres. Some of those being during the special doe and spike season with hunters brought in to fill the tags. The quality of our deer has gone from an average 8 point of maybe 100"s to and average 10 point of 125"s in the last 5 years. This last year, the 5th year of protein feed during the offseason, the smallest buck killed was a 9 point that scored 115", everything else was 10 points or better with 2 bucks in the 140" class and several seen or on game cam that would be 150-160" deer. Real nice deer for a low fenced ranch in Junction. You just have to make the sacrifice for a year or two and you will see a difference.


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## Ranch Dog (Dec 25, 2007)

Same story here as other counties, vocal opposition but now silent seeing the results. Give it a chance. 140 and 150 class whitetails are once again the norm in my county. Basket racked bucks that are close to 13", don't worry and don't shoot. They will get old enough to no longer be questionable. We are once again seeing deer that reach 6 1/2 or + years old. There is no question these deer are exceeding 13".

I run the data for a deer contest within our Wildlife Management Association so I have seen the changes that follow the regulation change. The change is great. Deer living to reach there potential. Deer hunting as deer hunting should be, hunting mature bucks! It makes it enjoyable.


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

*The Magic Fix All?????*

I've been beat up on this thread because I have some concerns that this fix all solution just might not be the best solution for all areas. Though I told myself I wouldn't post on here again about this subject, after visiting my property and talking will most of my neighbors this past weekend I have to once more try and explain my view. Heck, I know I haven't done a good job doing that in past post but here is my last shot. I know this antler restriction has worked well in the areas it has already been established, but does that really mean it is the Magic Fix? Let me just say my neighbors and I are not so sure it will fix anything for us, and it fact it could make our problems worse.

I hunt my own 40 acres that backs up to the Angelina National Forest, and all my neighbors hunt about the same or bigger pieces of land. We all also hunt the National Forest as well so we are not talking just some isolated views on small tracts. The fact is we don't have any problem seeing deer. The problem sometimes is getting a shot at the deer we do see. As far as my land that is for me to work on to open better shooting lanes, but that can't be done on the National Forest, which takes up most of the the land in the area.

After discussions with my neighbors we are all seeing pretty much the same things, 9 out of 10 deer we see are bucks (not counting yearlings). However, of all the bucks we see, only 1 in 20 will make 13 inches and only about 1 in 20 were a spike. A lot of the rest of these were younger basket rack bucks but at least 50% of these bucks are malformed rack bucks. I'm talking about some of the ugliest horns you will ever see and will never be anything else and and chances are so will their offspring. Of the two bucks I've killed on my place both were these ugly racked things that need to be out of the gene pool, however following this new law these freaks won't be legal so their genes will be passed on and this problem continues.

These freak bucks however is not the major problem in our area. The major problem as my neighbors and I see it is the very low number of doe. The 8 neighbors and myself decided last year not to shoot any doe during rifle season and none of us have the past two seasons. During this past archery season I had a shot at a doe, but she had two yearlings with her so I passed on the shot and during muzzleloader I didn't see a doe or spike. It was muzzleloader that I saw my one big buck all season and was glad to see he would be around to breed next year. 

For Angelina County or at least the southern part I truly believe the first step to fixing our problem is not allowing any doe be taken during rifle season. There is already a restriction were none can be taken after Thanksgiving, but a lot of doe can be killed in that 3 or 4 weeks and with this new antler restriction, I can see even more being taken. 

Maybe we are all wrong but, we would have really liked to have seen someone really checking the area and the deer population. Maybe they did and no one saw them. I think they really should have had some mandantory check stations setup this past season. That way they would have gotten some first hand information on what was being killed in the area. I don't know, I'm really willing to give anything a shot at improving the overall health and population of the deer herd in our area. If they pass this law, we will see in a few years if it has helped, I just hope that it doesn't have the opposite affect for us.


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## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

*re: bountyhunter*

Hey bountyhunter- I really hope it works out for you and your neighbors. If it does pass and go into effect, give it 2 or 3 years and see what happens. Its not going to get anybetter with the status quo. It seems to me it can only get better if its as bad as you say it is. And a mature buck will almost always exceed 13" spread, there is no doubt about that. As far as seeing only bucks, they must be coming from somewhere. I bet you have plenty of does, at least 1 for every buck unless somebody is cloning deer in east Texas. I sincerely wish you luck and hope it works out for you. I would love to hunt East Texas and might be willing to trade you a hunt up here for one down there sometime next season. My place has been under ranch rules of 14" or better for several years and we see alot of bucks with 15"-18" spreads'- not monsters like South Texas or Panhandle but nice deer. I have seen it work on places we got on that were shot out and after 3 years you can really turn it around. I hope and believe if it passes your hunting will improve overall. Good luck to you.


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## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

bountyhunter said:


> My land is in Angelina so I know what you folks are talking about. Only buck I saw all season this year was a spike, and I can count the totally number of deer I saw all season on my hands. It is tough hunting, and this past season was the toughest.


 bountyhunter- this seems to contradict your last post. I am confused.


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## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

bountyhunter said:


> *The Magic Fix All?????*
> 
> I've been beat up on this thread because I have some concerns that this fix all solution just might not be the best solution for all areas. Though I told myself I wouldn't post on here again about this subject, after visiting my property and talking will most of my neighbors this past weekend I have to once more try and explain my view. Heck, I know I haven't done a good job doing that in past post but here is my last shot. I know this antler restriction has worked well in the areas it has already been established, but does that really mean it is the Magic Fix? Let me just say my neighbors and I are not so sure it will fix anything for us, and it fact it could make our problems worse. Compare this last post to your first, they really seem to contradict each other. I am confused, but good luck.
> 
> ...


 This contradicts with your first post on this thread. I am confused.


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

Sea-Slug said:


> This contradicts with your first post on this thread. I am confused.


The first post was just what I had seen this season, 9 deer. The last post was some rough numbers after I spent the weekend visiting and talking with my neighbors. The last post is a combination of what I saw, what my son saw and what my 8 neighbors saw. I decided after reading all the posts to do a little investigation and see if what I was seeing was common accross the board. Other than two of my neighbors it was pretty constant, those two did see more doe than the rest of us, but they still were not in the numbers we felt they should be. Hope this clears this up some.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Hey BH I was taught at a young age to keep my mouth shut concerning what I saw, I'm not saying your neighbors are liars but its something to think about. WW


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

wet dreams said:


> Hey BH I was taught at a young age to keep my mouth shut concerning what I saw, I'm not saying your neighbors are liars but its something to think about. WW


That thought did cross my mind, but what they were saying pretty much was about the same as my son and I. So even if they weren't 100% truthful, I tend to believe a lot of what they were saying. Hey, I bought the beer and even a good ole boy don't lie too good after three or four cold ones.......:wink:


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

Deer populations throughout Texas are monitored through a series of different surveys to evaluate the approximate density, the general health of the herd, and the impact of the deer herd on the habitat. This information is collected through a series of surveys including spotlight lines, age/weight/antler data collection on harvested deer, and browse surveys. Of these, only the age/weight/antler data gives a snapshot in time of the condition of the herd. The others provide information which is useful in tracking the trends of the herd and evaluating the direction of management decisions.

Annual age/weight/antler data is collected from harvested deer throughout the state at hunting clubs, processing plants, cold storage facilities and Wildlife Management Area check stations. The data collected includes the age of the deer, the field dressed body weight, antler dimensions on bucks, and if the doe is lactating (milk in the udder). This information is used to determine the overall health of the deer herd. If these measurements are up, it will mean that the habitat conditions have been good, the deer are at or below carrying capacity, and that overall health conditions are good for the deer herd in general. Conversely, if these measurements are down, it indicates some type of problem with the health of the herd. The following links will show the graphs of that data.

 Deer Population Trends

Harvest Trends
​ 
As you can see, Angelina County is not in as bad shape as it's neighboring counties are (population-wise), however the deer per acre is still low (0.09 deer per acre) which is why the doe harvest is restricted. In addition, the age stucture of harvested bucks show exactly why the antler restrictions are needed. Only about 22% of all harvested bucks are 3.5 years or older (see the attached graphs). 

The following personnel are assigned to Angelina County and are available to provide guidance in managing your land & it's wildlife. I encourage you to take advantage of their expertise.

Sean Willis (Wildlife Biologist )
1805 E. Lufkin Ave.
Lufkin, TX 75901
(936) 639-1879 

Micah Poteet (Technical Guidance Biologist)
1805 E. Lufkin Ave.
Lufkin, TX 75901
(936) 639-1879 

Ricky Maxey (Wildlife Diversity Biologist)
P.O. Box 4655, SFA Station
Nacogdoches, TX 75962
(903) 679-9821

Rusty Wood (Forest Stewardship Biologist)
PO BOX 4655
Nacogdoches, TX 75962
(936) 569-1632 

Corey Mason (Waterfowl Biologist)
PO Box 30
Athens, TX 75751
(903) 675-4177 

Bobby Widner (Wildlife Technician )
593 Bobby Widner Rd.
Zavalla, TX 75980
(936) 897-3424 

Gary Calkins (District Leader)
1342 S. Wheeler
Jasper, TX 75951
(409) 384-6894


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## Rainy (Jul 30, 2005)

Do you have records/charts to show for the last five years?


Rainy


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

I don't, although I'm sure that one of the biologists assigned to your county will be able to provide that data without too much trouble. They will have the most current data when they have the public meetings.

Do you belong to a WMA co-op where you are at? If not, I encourage you to become a member. If one doesn't exist, you can start one (we started ours in March 2000).

*A Guide for Wildlife Management Associations and Co-ops*​
TOWMA also can be a great resource to aid you in this process. Their website is located at:
*
http://www.towma.org*​


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

W. R. Ranch, I'm very familiar with the links and graphs you posted and used them to in the decision to buy my piece of property in Angelina County. Glad you posted them as they might help other folks as well.

My decision to by the piece of property I did was because 1. The property joined the Angelina National Forest and 2. Based on the population trends of Angelina County compared to the population trends of Montgomery County. These trend graphs for these two counties show that Angelina tends to have about the same if not slightly higher population of deer as Montgomery County. The reason I choose Montgomery County for my comparison is because I hunted the Sam Houston National Forest for 20 years and had been very successful there, especially the last 5 years I hunted there. 

So I assumed that if Angelina supposedly had close to the same number deer as Montgomery, I would at least have a similar level of success. This assumption however seems to be flawed, because from my personal observations I don't think there are as many deer as these trends project. Also this trend data is very old, at least 6 years old in some cases and we all know a lot can happen in 6 years. Now with that said, it might just be my hunting tactics that are flawed, but I really don't think there would be that much difference between the two counties. The one big observation I've had about the two areas that make me doubt the population trend data is, it was not uncommon to see groups of 10 to 15 does together in the Sam Houston National Forest, but in three years in Angelina I've never seen more that 4 does together. 

Again all of my concerns are based on my personal observation, but I also do my homework. I'm not just your average Joe hunter, but I've also never been one that believed in spending money on a deer lease, when I could take all I need in SHNF. Also after spending 8 years in the USAF and 22 years with NASA as an Engineer, I know how to use resources and research data, and I also know that what the government tells you isn't always the truth. With that said, I would like to say for what seems like the 20th time, I hope this antler restriction works for us, but that doesn't mean I can't have my doubts.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/spikes_not_inferior/

interesting read , confirms to shoot the spikes, esp. in your case out east,

look at the racks in the 2 models....


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## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

bountyhunter said:


> The first post was just what I had seen this season, 9 deer. The last post was some rough numbers after I spent the weekend visiting and talking with my neighbors. The last post is a combination of what I saw, what my son saw and what my 8 neighbors saw. I decided after reading all the posts to do a little investigation and see if what I was seeing was common accross the board. Other than two of my neighbors it was pretty constant, those two did see more doe than the rest of us, but they still were not in the numbers we felt they should be. Hope this clears this up some.


 That clears it up for me. Good luck with your hunting. Shoot me a PM in Oct.


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## Sea-Slug (May 28, 2004)

CoastalOutfitters said:


> http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/spikes_not_inferior/
> 
> interesting read , confirms to shoot the spikes, esp. in your case out east,
> 
> look at the racks in the 2 models....


 Interesting read- thanks for the link. But I have read other studies done recently that contradict this. So who knows, even biologist are split on the issue of spikes. I say take em out of the herd.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

BH good move on the beers to try and get them talking. Do you happen to know if and where the TPW sets up boiligist to do these surveys in your area. In the Sam Rayburn area they set up in Broadus yrly and I can say the bioligist is more than willing to answer any ??s on just about any thing you ask. BTW doe season in the lakes area closes a week before Thanksgiving, this is something I found out B4 hunting TG w/e, the wife n I were gonna take a cpl UNTIL I checked the book. One thing I wished I would have asked him is why Miss and Tx difer on the spike issue as it seems as if they would be on the same pg but both will agrue their side. WW


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## bountyhunter (Jul 6, 2005)

WD, beers are always a good idea...:wink:

I've talked with the Wildlife Tech in Zavalla twice and have not been impressed with some of the answers he gave me and he didn't seem to care what I had to say. I asked if they were running any kind of check stations in the area, and he said only for spring turkey. Seems the only data they are collecting in our area is from processors and the one big timber company lease in the area. If you ask me that is not a good enough cross section of data to base any solutions on.

Any way the bottom line on this whole discussion is the antler restriction addresses the issue of poor age structure of the bucks in the herd. By enforcing this measure it will help increase the age structure of the bucks in the herd and at the same time give individuals a chance to take a better quality trophy. This is a good thing!

The antler restriction doesn't address the low number of doe that we have observed nor does it address the poor genetics in the bucks that is has been observed. What it does affect on these two issues could be adverse as more doe are likely to be taken from these areas and the freak bucks that are now protected by this measure are allowed to pass along their poor genes. This is a bad thing!

Now I know it is easy to be an armchair quarterback, or always point out problems but never give any solutions. I know that TPWD knows there is a low doe population in our area, or they wouldn't have the restriction on the taking of doe they currently have in place. These restrictions have been in place a number of years and do not seem to be working and by the harvest graphs the number of doe being taken each year is not decreasing. So I truly believe they should impose further restrictions for the taking of doe to only the Archery and Muzzleloader seasons for at least 2-5 years and let their numbers increase. I know this will be just as unpopular with some folks as the antler restriction but something needs to be done.

The other issue we have observed is the high numbers of bucks with malformed antlers it is a tough one to solve, especially if the antler restriction is imposed in its current form as it would protect these freaks. A regulation that would answer both of these issues would be very difficult to write and even more difficult to enforce. You could say something to the affect that bucks with malformed antlers are legal to take, but what is the definition of malformed? If you ask 10 people you might get 10 different answers on its definition, so there is no way it could be written and enforced. If they don't put the antler restriction in place so that these freaks can be taken, then there is no protection on the younger bucks with good genes, so in this case it is dang if you do and dang if you don't. The one solution I can think of is for TPWD to set up some special guided hunts the National Forests where the hunter is will someone trained to determine if a buck should be removed from the herd, however a program like this would be very costly for the state and would it really be affective. So I really can't come up with a good plan to remove the poor genes from the herd and at the same time correct the age structure.

Guess we will see how everything pans out in a few years and until then I'll just keep going out in the woods enjoying myself. To enjoy hunting, I don't have to do any killing.


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