# MLD Problem..



## Favre4 (Jun 12, 2014)

Ok guys so I got a question... I've been hunting on mld leases for as long as I can remember prolly 15 or more years.. However I recently got on a new lease with MLD3, upon entering the lease is was understood that we would have till the end of February like all mld 3 leases... However was informed this weekend the season would end in January so that there would be no mistaken deer shot of wrong age group..

Now I'm not trying to toot my own horn but I've been at this for awhile and any hunter that says they haven't made a mistake shooting a buck that was too young in their life is lying... But I probably haven't the last 10 or so years and offer to send teeth off for aging if questioned. I've seen run down deer after a second and even third rut on both protein and non protein leases for over a decade. However the problem I have is when u pay 10k a gun for a lease that's understood to last the duration of mld then they tell u that it will end at the end of the month is very shady to say the least..

I did sign an agreement at beginning of hunting season adhering to pasture bosses rules, which I interpreted to management criteria and so on. I had no idea he would change actual eligible hunting season dates..


Is there anything I can do?!?!?!?


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## berto (Oct 14, 2004)

10k and you still have not shot a buck? Wow


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

What does that have to do with the question?


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

Favre4 said:


> Ok guys so I got a question... I've been hunting on mld leases for as long as I can remember prolly 15 or more years.. However I recently got on a new lease with MLD3, upon entering the lease is was understood that we would have till the end of February like all mld 3 leases... However was informed this weekend the season would end in January so that there would be no mistaken deer shot of wrong age group..
> 
> Now I'm not trying to toot my own horn but I've been at this for awhile and any hunter that says they haven't made a mistake shooting a buck that was too young in their life is lying... But I probably haven't the last 10 or so years and offer to send teeth off for aging if questioned. I've seen run down deer after a second and even third rut on both protein and non protein leases for over a decade. However the problem I have is when u pay 10k a gun for a lease that's understood to last the duration of mld then they tell u that it will end at the end of the month is very shady to say the least..
> 
> ...


 Are you in an area where the bucks are prone to dropping antlers prior to the end of February?

Were all allotted MLD tags filled or are anticipated to be filled by 1/31?

If not, it would be a fair question to ask why they are deviating from the program.


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## Favre4 (Jun 12, 2014)

No I am not in an area where antlers drop earlier and no not even close to having all tags filled. Only reasoning was that they didn't want mistakes made on trophies.. And yes I pay 10k and haven't dropped a buck.. And maybe I won't drop a buck, I'm one of those guys who doesn't pull the trigger on a trophy unless he's bigger than what I've already got on the wall... I will shoot culls for meat, but having the opportunity cut short by a month just doesn't sit well.. Perhaps it's bc some other hunters have made mistakes earlier in the year, but it's not my problem if guys were allowed on the lease that can't age... Who knows.. And I haven't even shot one deer yet lol.. Sometime the politics of lease hunting just ruins it.. I'll miss it in July but hate it in feb..

God I hope it doesn't turn into a why pay that for a lease thread... Just asking if there's any opinions on what to do..


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Your recourse lies within your contract. If it alludes/implies to the fact that the lease boss makes the rules, then that is your answer. If it is silent then your interpretation is as valid as the next guy. What is the general consensus among the other members?


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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

I'd be ****** too if it was a 10k a year or 2k a year lease if it wasn't on the books prior to agreement. Other than that comment I can't answer your question.


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

Simple.....how good is the ranch? I spend a small fortune(to me) and don't come close to killing a buck every year. It's about finding "the' deer you're looking for. If you're like me, they don't just pop out every year. Does the ranch you're hunting have the potential to produce what you're after? Overall, are you happy with the ranch, the other hunters, and the potential to harvest what you're after. If the answer is yes, I'd think long and hard about leaving. Solid, trophy producing ranches aren't cheap or easy to find.


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## Rubberback (Sep 9, 2008)

Favre4 said:


> No I am not in an area where antlers drop earlier and no not even close to having all tags filled. Only reasoning was that they didn't want mistakes made on trophies.. And yes I pay 10k and haven't dropped a buck.. And maybe I won't drop a buck, I'm one of those guys who doesn't pull the trigger on a trophy unless he's bigger than what I've already got on the wall... I will shoot culls for meat, but having the opportunity cut short by a month just doesn't sit well.. Perhaps it's bc some other hunters have made mistakes earlier in the year, but it's not my problem if guys were allowed on the lease that can't age... Who knows.. And I haven't even shot one deer yet lol.. Sometime the politics of lease hunting just ruins it.. I'll miss it in July but hate it in feb..
> 
> God I hope it doesn't turn into a why pay that for a lease thread... Just asking if there's any opinions on what to do..


How long have you been hunting there? I always want a bigger rack than I have. But I do it by the county. Every county has different deer. Just the way I roll.


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

Favre4 said:


> No I am not in an area where antlers drop earlier and no not even close to having all tags filled. Only reasoning was that they didn't want mistakes made on trophies.. And yes I pay 10k and haven't dropped a buck.. And maybe I won't drop a buck, I'm one of those guys who doesn't pull the trigger on a trophy unless he's bigger than what I've already got on the wall... I will shoot culls for meat, but having the opportunity cut short by a month just doesn't sit well.. Perhaps it's bc some other hunters have made mistakes earlier in the year, but it's not my problem if guys were allowed on the lease that can't age... Who knows.. And I haven't even shot one deer yet lol.. Sometime the politics of lease hunting just ruins it.. I'll miss it in July but hate it in feb..
> 
> God I hope it doesn't turn into a why pay that for a lease thread... Just asking if there's any opinions on what to do..


 That said, I will say again that it shouldn't be out of line to ask why. The question never asked is the question never answered. The response you get might be what determines if you want to continue down this path.

There are exceptions to every rule and within those exceptions, perhaps the ranch boss could take into consideration that you haven't shot one deer as a product of your discipline. I have no idea what the specific rules are as it relates to shooting does after breeding season. I don't run a lease, nor do I consider myself an expert but if I did.............all doe tags (meat) hunting would be done before the rut. Less does at rut time should mean the best / more dominant bucks are getting action and should create more buck movement (as a general rule). And opening up a doe to find 2 barely formed fetuses always makes you wonder if that 180 class buck was their daddy.

If nothing else, I would ask if I could take out an obvious cull as determined by your lease rules.

I'm not gonna make it into why you pay $10,000 but more so, if I pay $10,000, there should be very clear expectations on all scenarios that could come into play. That's a lot of cash to enter into a contract of uncertainty.

Good Luck.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

Aren't s tx leases fun ! At times they can be BS. Your question is to be answered in your written contract - there are some mgrs that change rules with their own opinion leaving members possibly where you are.


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## bowmansdad (Nov 29, 2011)

BretE said:


> Simple.....how good is the ranch? I spend a small fortune(to me) and don't come close to killing a buck every year. It's about finding "the' deer you're looking for. If you're like me, they don't just pop out every year. Does the ranch you're hunting have the potential to produce what you're after? Overall, are you happy with the ranch, the other hunters, and the potential to harvest what you're after. If the answer is yes, I'd think long and hard about leaving. Solid, trophy producing ranches aren't cheap or easy to find.


I agree with Bret,if you haven't seen one you want to take by now, it's not going to happen. If you need the meat, shoot a couple does. It sucks that your season is shortened for bucks but the campfire, beer and steaks are still great!


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

I think the lease rules should state start and finish dates... That's pretty simple. If your lease says you get to hunt through a specific hunting period then you should be reimbursed if it's cut short. No matter what you pay 200.00 or 20,000.00 it should be clear. Starts this date ends this date.. That's the easy part.


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

broadonrod said:


> I think the lease rules should state start and finish dates... That's pretty simple. If your lease says you get to hunt through a specific hunting period then you should be reimbursed if it's cut short. No matter what you pay 200.00 or 20,000.00 it should be clear. Starts this date ends this date.. That's the easy part.


Agreed but I think we both know he isn't getting any money back. At this point I'd decide first if the ranch was worth future consideration and if so I'd plan a sit down immediately to discuss this years changes and nail down future intentions and be convinced they were in all honesty. I've been lucky to hunt some awesome ranches over the years and when you find one, you do every thing you can to hang in there....within reason......


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

$10K?? Hmmm Shoot your deer in Feb, get kicked off and go find a $5000 lease that makes you happy.

Give the other $5K to me as a counseling fee.

On the other hand, if something about your deer lease does not **** you off at least once per season, you are doing it wrong.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

BretE said:


> Agreed but I think we both know he isn't getting any money back. At this point I'd decide first if the ranch was worth future consideration and if so I'd plan a sit down immediately to discuss this years changes and nail down future intentions and be convinced they were in all honesty. I've been lucky to hunt some awesome ranches over the years and when you find one, you do every thing you can to hang in there....within reason......


Yep.... 
We have been fortunate enough to find the perfect group over several years all on the same page. That can be harder than finding big deer ... Finding a good ranch and a good group is hard to do. It took us a long time to do both here. 
To many people put a price on inches and not the fun they have over an entire season. Micro management can kill the fun fast. We have seen it all here over the years .... And I agree the OP is prob not getting any money back :/...

Help fix the problem this year with your ranch manager or just write it off as another bad story around the next camp fire.

Good luck and hope it all works out for you.


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## ksk (Aug 9, 2008)

*MLD Problem*

As mentioned above,I don't think you will get any money back.May be I missed it,but who made the decision to shorten you season?The ranch owner? You have several choices: Get off the lease next year.Hunt until the end of this month and get on again next year. Get off the lease and if you have a written contract,sue the ranch for breaking the contract in the county seat where the ranch is.I promise you,you will lose your case.


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

broadonrod said:


> I think the lease rules should state start and finish dates... That's pretty simple. If your lease says you get to hunt through a specific hunting period then you should be reimbursed if it's cut short. No matter what you pay 200.00 or 20,000.00 it should be clear. Starts this date ends this date.. That's the easy part.


 To be fair, there should be a caveat that says (specific to MLD property) that the end date can be altered, based on allotted harvest tags.

If TPWD issues 100 tags, you don't get to take 101.

But I hear what you are saying.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Main Frame 8 said:


> To be fair, there should be a caveat that says (specific to MLD property) that the end date can be altered, based on allotted harvest tags.
> 
> If TPWD issues 100 tags, you don't get to take 101.
> 
> But I hear what you are saying.


This.. too .. I agree.


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## Favre4 (Jun 12, 2014)

I've been doing this along time and trust me heard of it happening before. It was my own fault for letting it happen to me.. For years I preached if u don't like it be the pasture boss and that's what I need to keep in mind.. 

To clarify: It was pasture boss decision to shorten the length of the hunting season from from feb to jan... There are plenty of mld tags left, (round 40) and the ranch is 20,000acres, needs plenty more managing before it's gets better, only reason given to reason season was shortened was so hunters didn't mis age deer after ruts.. I'm sorry but that IMO is on lease boss if they can't age it's his fault for getting em on there.. Not saying I'm perfect, but when I pay for a full season where I need it to find a buck being as how I'm a manager and believe if I've got one bigger on the wall I let it walk, I think I should at least get that opportunity.. 20,000acres leaves a lot of looking and I just thought I had more time, now I'm down to 2 weeks... And to answer ur question yes definately getting off next year.. 

I've been fortunate enough to hunt the Callaghan, pilloncillo, briscoe, gates, and king .. It's time I go.


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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

With that said, I'd hunt through February with yalls MLD's left and see if that buck you're wanting shows. As stated you're not getting any thing back and what's he gonna do, keep you from taking you're deer with you? Be ready to take your hardware if you have anything set up and pack it up after you get your deer. He's probably just gonna bring in some paid hunters to burn the tags and he get paid in February anticipating the leasee's won't all be around. I've seen it before first hand on a place next to the Morgan I hunted on as a guest 10-12 years ago. 20k is a lot of land to cover with only a leasee or two if any while not even looking for a paid inside hunter. Good luck.


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## Instigator (Jul 6, 2004)

I'm not sure which I'd be more annoyed with, the surprise date change or the poorly thought out reason for it. It makes perfect sense to shut down doe harvest late in the season to prevent shooting dropped antler bucks. I can also see shutting down culls due to potential mistakes on single drops or broken antlered bucks. But a trophy is a trophy whether it be November or February so I can't understand why that would be shut down.

I also might be a bit annoyed by the apparent lack of doe management. If you don't have assassins taking care of that then you should have a couple of those down well before now, by lease rule.

Since you can afford the $10K freight you won't have too much trouble finding a replacement lease. It just sucks to have to break in a new one.

It might be a public service to identify the lease so one of us doesn't fall into the same trap.


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## Ancuegar (Jul 5, 2012)

sotexhookset said:


> With that said, I'd hunt through February with yalls MLD's left and see if that buck you're wanting shows. As stated you're not getting any thing back and what's he gonna do, keep you from taking you're deer with you? Be ready to take your hardware if you have anything set up and pack it up after you get your deer. *He's probably just gonna bring in some paid hunters to burn the tags and he get paid in February anticipating the leasee's won't all be around*. I've seen it before first hand on a place next to the Morgan I hunted on as a guest 10-12 years ago. 20k is a lot of land to cover with only a leasee or two if any while not even looking for a paid inside hunter. Good luck.


this is what i thought when i read the first post. glad someone beat me to it.


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

I don't understand the logic that late season mature bucks can be mistaken for young deer. Yes, they have lost body weight, but, they also show their age much more this time of year.

In the end you agreed to rules, if they give him authority then you need to follow them. Are others complaining? If not, maybe you missed some info somewhere?


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## 6.5 shooter dude (Jan 8, 2008)

If there is not a fine to pay, I would shoot my deer and pack my stuff. Wouldn't be going back anyway.


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

Favre4 said:


> I've been doing this along time and trust me heard of it happening before. It was my own fault for letting it happen to me.. For years I preached if u don't like it be the pasture boss and that's what I need to keep in mind..
> 
> To clarify: It was pasture boss decision to shorten the length of the hunting season from from feb to jan... *There are plenty of mld tags left, (round 40)* and the ranch is 20,000acres, needs plenty more managing before it's gets better, only reason given to reason season was shortened was so hunters didn't mis age deer after ruts.. I'm sorry but that IMO is on lease boss if they can't age it's his fault for getting em on there.. Not saying I'm perfect, but when I pay for a full season where I need it to find a buck being as how I'm a manager and believe if I've got one bigger on the wall I let it walk, I think I should at least get that opportunity.. 20,000acres leaves a lot of looking and I just thought I had more time, now I'm down to 2 weeks... And to answer ur question yes definately getting off next year..
> 
> I've been fortunate enough to hunt the Callaghan, pilloncillo, briscoe, gates, and king .. It's time I go.


 Not sure what the original allotment of tags was but 40 unused seems significant.

Failing to utilize a significant % of those tags can also compromise the properties MLD eligibility.

If it were me, I'd be shooting him game cam pics of deer I considered culls and asking if I could take those out,......if nothing else.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

The Pilloncillo is a great ranch...big trees.

You don't have an MLD problem you have a management problem. I'm going to assume that you've gone over the issue with the lease boss and he's sticking to his decision?

If so then yes I'd take a walk and get on the phone to Brett Holden and see about getting on his lease.

Good luck with all of it.

TH


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

40 leftover tags is NOT going to sit well with TPW....


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

As mentioned - is he selling hunts behind lease ?


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## Ancuegar (Jul 5, 2012)

mrsh978 said:


> As mentioned - is he selling hunts behind lease ?


to pay for his spot maybe. ive heard of a few guys that did that and got caught and they got the boot!
5 mgt deer could pay for his spot....


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## vette74 (Oct 11, 2009)

Here is what I would do.
1. Make sure you grab a blank mld buck tag and keep it with you.
2. Let him know that you will be going out there every weekend in February to hunt predators, hogs, fill feeders, quail hunt ect. See how he reacts.
3. If you see the deer you want take him and pack up all your **** and leave.


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## BLUE CHIP (Jul 20, 2006)

You have hunted some very good ranches. If the ranch you are on is as good as those mentioned, I would be careful about leaving it. Those types of places are hard to find. I am on a MLD permit, and we try to shoot all the trophys by the last weekend of regular season. We usually finish up killing management bucks after the regular season. On a side note you have earned my respect for not filling your tag just because you bought a deer. Guess that is why you get to hunt the good places.


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## BigBuck (Mar 2, 2005)

I agree with Blue Chip. Great job on being selective. I run a MLD 3 place as well, and we hunt through January. Only difference is everyone knows Jan. 31 is it. We use the time after regular season ends to remove culls and does. By your post, I believe you have too much personal integrity to do anything underhanded. 
Good luck to you whatever you decide. 
BB


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Never been on a MLD ranch but doesent a TP&W biologist have to be involved to allocate how many deer are killed. Can a "manager" override TP&W. To become MLD I thought you had to play by TP&W rules.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

You do Charlie and your harvest log will reflect what was killed during the season. The log should match the number of tags issued to you by the TP&W.

TH


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm curious now. Why did you leave the Callaghan, Pilloncillo and Briscoe. I have buddies that now hunt or have hunted these ranches. I know the Callaghan checking every deer in thing is a hassle but it doesn't get much better than the Pilloncillo or the right parts of the Briscoe ranches. None of my business, just wondering why you're no longer hunting these ranches......


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Thanks TH I thought it was that way. So how can a "ranch manager" override the Biologist with TP&W and the ranch still keep its MLD status ??


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## DadSaid (Apr 4, 2006)

whats the penalty if you don't fill your MLD tags?


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## jtburf (May 26, 2004)

Have you spoken to any of the other lease members to discuss this with them?

Surely your not the only member who is upset. (I would be also)

John


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## Favre4 (Jun 12, 2014)

I love seeing and hunting new country and I am particular about what deer I shoot. Nothing's better to me than seeing new country and the thrill of an unknown lease and pasture so I tend to lease hop.

I left the Callaghan bc I was tired of seein only bucks up to 160.. I was fortunate to have killed a 175 there. The best two deer I had seen there was one that would go mid 180's and another that was mid 190's. I glassed em but never could see em again. Both were just traveling mid day both walked over corn without eatin a drop. Now I'm what I consider a very very methodical hunter, I almost never hunt blinds or feeders (Cept in the rain) and live on the ground when I hunt literally lay in the dirt all day I mean from dawn till dusk. I know ppl will prolly knock it but it's the method I've found that works best for me and for some reason my efforts tend to get rewarded. 

Back to as why I left there, although I did glass two deer that big our pasture had many regular corn and protein hogs and some where 4.5 yr old high 160's. Now these bucks were seen everyday or some only at night at protein feeders... Come 5.5 yr old everyone would disappear. I mean off the planet.. Now there were plenty of 7.5 and 8yr olds that didn't disappear and were seen for the majority of their life but all the ones of quality would adios except for maybe 1 or 2.. I've hunted enough places to know and been on enough leases to tell u how odd this is... 

Now I'm the first to say I have no clue why this is and have my ideas and most other pastures on the callaghan also noticed the trend.. I do know for many years the Texas javelina and hog shoot out was there and was a big problem.. The hunters would line becerra county rd all the way to hwy 35 for miles and miles. They would hunt all the pastures of the Callaghan right after ur season, they were allowed to stay at ur camp, hunt at night, and absolutely were not regulated. I can't image what they saw at night under my feeders. 

Also another problem I had with the Callaghan was lack of overall big deer coming in to the check station. Every year same story. The top 10 board there was usually somethin like this the first two were usually 180's maybe a 190 on a good year , followed by 6-7 mid to low 170's and the board was rounded up with a couple of 160's..

Now although that sounds good for low fence when u start thinking about it a 90,000 acre ranch should produce more than 2 bucks a yr in the 180's-90's.. Especially one with decent management rules. I just found it very odd..

Now I'll be the first to tell u the Callaghan is top notch and I miss it. The rides thru all the pastures and past the John deer facility to get to camp (usually booze cruisin) , the rides up to check station to check in a deer and see others deer/story's, and just the whole ranch and freedom is bar none. You feel like u own ur pasture which I've really only felt there...

As far as best low fence ranch I've ever hunted pilloncillo bar none... Saw many many deer in 170 range. Which is awesome considering the pasture I was only hadn't been hunted in over 30 yrs or managed. The deer first walked over corn and didn't have a clue what it was lol that was a sight. When they figured it out they were like rats. Problems with pillo a lot and I mean a lot of bs rules to abide by, tgey were overly concerned about lawsuits. For instance no guest allowed except for immediate family, absolutely no one but members on ranch in off season which meant if u wanted to put up blinds feeders and panelin you did it yourself. Which didn't matter to me bc I ground hunt anyways but none the less a hassle. Also crooked oilfield hands, lol my camp got broke into and robbed of all electronics and rifles and shotguns. Lemme tell u first hand if someone wants in a gun safe they are getting in a gun safe lol...they went right thru the door with ease and these definately were not ur run of the mill gun safes , but when they have trackhoes and welding equipment anything is possible. Also drank all the hunters booze while robbing them blind. I had a chuckle about that.. Thankfully I keep nothing at a deer camp but since I had nothing in my 5th wheel, they thought it'd be funny to shove a whole roll of paper towels down commode and flush it... To my knowledge they never found who did it...also another problem with pilo was the wets. U have no clue how bad they are. I saw tons tons I figure from 200-300 no lie don't know why but that area is the worst I've seen and I've hunted all over south Texas. A lot of them drug runners is the bad part whereas on Callaghan just a couple and mostly workers.. I'd even get 1-2 on game cams in about every spot and u always felt uneasy out there... Trust me before the pilo I'd roll my eyes at the over exaggerated wet back storys, but after that place I believe almost anything.. This was reason I got off.. I had over 30 cross me in a paraflat all in camo, all with dope backpacks, and all with oozie/rifles. Don't care how hard that is to believe but it's the truth. When ur ground huntin with only a pistol and rifle and on top of that someone dropped u off in that spot you feel pretty small pretty quick , almost ruined me. I packed up never returned. However u could tell the ranch never really cared for hunters being out there. They seemed like they were tryin to run off the last of them with contracts in place... I wish I was still there with just how good u could make that place with proper management, but then again with illegals I dont..


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