# Hand loading thoughts



## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

Hand loading thoughts



There are many websites and publications with detailed information about precision loading of ammunition, so I won't attempt to regurgitate all of that data. Think of this as more of a over view to the many aspects of hand loading. Sometime we can get overwhelmed with the enormity of a project and forget to look at it as many small manageable projects taken together as a whole. To that end I will attempt to break this discussion up into main topics. This guide as it were will not be all encompassing, it will be from my own experience of what works, some of what doesn't. I hope that through this we can can have some good discussions to make us all better marksmen.



Brass:

As with everything else about loading brass is made within certain tolerances. As a precision loader it is our job to reduce or eliminate those tolerances. With new brass I like to full length size. This will uniform all of the external dimensions. I turn necks, uniform primer pockts, cut to length, and chamfer. As I go through each process I have a zero tolerance. When I have finished I then weigh the brass, as I have made the outside all the same when I weigh them I can sort out any that have thicker walls and differing case capacity. Differing case capacity can cause problems with accuracy. 



Bullets:

No matter the brand all bullets are built with some tolerance. Again we weight sort, sort by bearing length, and visually inspect for flaws. I don't moly coat. Not because I don't feel that there is a benefit. I just don't feel the added work is worth the benefit gained. Opinions vary.



Primers:

Not all primers work with all powders the same. Experiment with different primers to find a combination that provides for efficient burn. Never mix lots of primers while loading a batch of ammo. 



Powders:

We all know different powders produce differ results. What a lot of hand loaders don't know is that the same powder can vary greatly by lot. Never mix lots of powder just as you shouldn't mix lots of primers.



Loading:

After you have loaded your rounds. Check the runout to make sure your seating the bullet straight. Check the OAL with a comparator to make sure they are all the same.



General notes:

Always use a comparator when checking OAL or bullet bearing length. Every few rounds check the zero on your scale or any other precision instruments. Load rounds in lots, make sure that you have enough supplies to load a test batch and if it is good to continue on and make 50 or 100 more rounds. If you find a formula you like you don't want to have to open a new lot of bullets, primers, or powder in order to make a full batch of rounds. This can only lead to inaccuracies. 



The basic reloader can ignore a lot of what I have written here. They are loading in bulk and are not doing much more than what the factory does. Unless you have the means to buy and load in extreme bulk I don't feel there is any cost advantage over buying factory ammo. That is once you have figured in the start up costs. However for the hand loader, we are looking to improve upon the factory by removing any manufacturing tolerances. We want to take away any variable in our shooting that we can. Therefore we want to and have to pay attention to every detail. We have to remove every unknown, and load the most identical loads we can. That is what I see as the difference between hand loads and reloads.



Good shooting.

J


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

That is some good info there. I wish I had that when I first started, espectially using the comparator to measure OAL.

Measuring headspace is a good idea too. Brass that has only been neck sized more than a few times you will find that the shoulder will need to be bumped a little bit to ensure good feeding/chambering. Brass for semi auto rifles will need to be full length sized every time. 

Make sure to keep good records of your load data. Record lot numbers on the powder too. This way if you have multiple pounds of the same powder you can check before you load. Always double check your loads when you change lots of powder. Lately I have found the powder I use to be very consistent but I have had some vary and be too "hot" for lack of a better term. 

Have a good load manual handy, or multiple from different manufacturers if possible. Most of the data is available online from the powder companies as well. Do not rely on other peoples load data. It may be unsafe in your rifle/pistol. 

Be safe and have fun!


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

Thanks Bantam, that is what I wanted when I wrote this. There is a ton of info on reloading to be had, however very little of it is in a checklist form. I was hoping that we could add to and discuss the different steps and aspects of reloading rather than just asking for a load formula. Developing loads can be very fun, your not going to save money doing it though.


V/R
J


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## prarie dog (Feb 28, 2011)

Good info and advice Robalo Sunrise, one of the most useful reloading acessories I've found recently is a load data book. I was thinking that MTM makes it but can't find it online, SWMBO bought it for me a couple of Christmas's ago at Sportsmans Warehouse. It has targets that you can put right next to a data page that is very complete. I'm told that there are computer programs that will do this but the book is very convenient. My memory used to be good enough to remember stuff, now I don't even try to. When people ask what load is that I say, don't know, it's written down at home.


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

That is a good call prairie dog. Data books are essential to fine tuning your loads especially for long distance shooting. Load data as well as dope books. No matter what program or device you want to use for doping your scope nothing beats your own data. Every scope is different and every weapon is different and what needs 10 minutes of dope for one may require 11 for someone else.


V/R
J


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

When I got into reloading I had to buy a few things twice. A good freind gave me my first RCBS single stage press. I had to buy the dies, shell holders, ect. The initial cost was a lot more than I expected but I was in a good financial position to purchase everything I needed. The local shop sold me the basics. I asked about the competition seaters and sizing dies. I was told it was not needed. Well I ended up buying it later and it saved me a ton of time and improved my loads. 

After a few years I am saving money on my loads over purchasing new rounds. The accuracy I have acheived is well beyond any new "match" rounds I have bought. I would call 1/4 MOA an achievement with an out of the box rifle. 

I strongly believe in a competition style bullet seater die with a micrometer type adjustment for rifle loads. This allows you to make every round the exact same OAL when used with a comparator. I also have less runout now.

A bushing type neck sizing die is a good investment too. This allows for precise neck tension especially if you turn the necks. I use different brands of brass for some of my loads. I do not have to use the "one size fits all" neck sizing die. I can custom tailer the tension to what I want for each load. 

I still use a RCBS 10-10 scale with a powder trickler to fine tune the powder charge. I have not moved up to the powered digital powder dispensers yet. I may be missing something here but I do not trust the digital scales. I have watched mine fluctuate too many times when weighing something that does not change in weight. They say accurate to 1/10 grain...sure. I have seen it go .3 grains before. It takes longer to do it my way but they are consistent. You can't deny gravity or physics


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

Bantam1 said:


> When I got into reloading I had to buy a few things twice. A good freind gave me my first RCBS single stage press. I had to buy the dies, shell holders, ect. The initial cost was a lot more than I expected but I was in a good financial position to purchase everything I needed. The local shop sold me the basics. I asked about the competition seaters and sizing dies. I was told it was not needed. Well I ended up buying it later and it saved me a ton of time and improved my loads.
> 
> After a few years I am saving money on my loads over purchasing new rounds. The accuracy I have acheived is well beyond any new "match" rounds I have bought. I would call 1/4 MOA an achievement with an out of the box rifle.
> 
> ...


I'm with you on the digital scale. I have yet to find one I feel like I can trust. I saw one the other day that looked like it was the bees knees but for a grand it ain't happening with this boy.there are a lot of good investments and the problem is until you have depreciated out all the equipment and you assume your time is worth nothing you are still making rounds for the same price. Yes you will be able to load much more accurate rounds by hand, however the way I see it is that with time and practice I can assure a 1 shot cold barrel to over 1000 meters with factory match ammo. I enjoy loading so it is of no consequence but my time is valuable and I always figure it into my bullet making decisions.

V/R
J


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

True. I do not count my time because if I did I could not afford to pay myself what I feel I am worth. I consider it a hobby and because I enjoy it I do not place a price on my time. 

I have not made a cold bore shot at 1000 yet. I have to walk before I can run. Now I have made cold bore shots at 850. It has taken me 1-3 shots to get on target at 1000. I am self trained so I can't complain too much. I like that my rifle is consistent with cold bore shots no matter what load. 1/2" low and 1/2" left at 100, every time. It makes for easy math at distance as long as I call the wind right.


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## woods (Dec 3, 2011)

Digital scales are like any other piece of equipment; there are good brands and bad brands and you generally get what you pay for *and* no matter how much you pay for one you still run the risk of getting a lemon.

But if you get a good one like I have (4 or 5 years and running now) then you won't give it up or go back. Mine is the RCBS 1500 and is a lot more fun, faster and *more accurate* than the old balance beam I used to have.

The fun part you will have to take my word for it but in the reloading process of depriming, sizing, trimming, chamferring, powder charging and seating bullets, the powder charging is what I look forward to the most.

Faster is easier to explain in that if you are loading a block of 50 cases then you drop the first 3 or 4 charges while you are getting your seating die set up. Then you can fall into a rhythm of:

hit the dispense button (it will automatically dispense the previous amount)
seat the bullet in a charged case while the dispenser is running (check the OAL with a comparator every once in a while)
set the loaded round back in the block
pick up the next charged case and tip to visually check for powder level
set the case in the shell holder
the dispenser beeps, *wait 3 seconds* and it will tell you the exact amount dispensed (9 out of 10 times it is dead on but if it runs over .1 or .2 grs then dip a little out with small Lee dipper)
pick up the pan and swirl into funnel into next case
place the pan back on the platen
move funnel to next case (tip funnel to check for bridging)
back to "hit the dispense button"
So, by the time you have finished charging the load block, you are within 3 or 4 cases of having a complete set of loads, including seating

Accuracy? I have to admit that I was concerned when I first got it and kept my balance beam to check the digital. The 1500 comes with 2 ea 50 gr check weight and I always calibrate it when I first turn it on. *Everytime* since I got it, when I lift the 2 check weights off the platen and put the pan on it weighs *exactly 155.0 grs. *Then (after zeroing with the pan on the platen) after I lift the charged pan the display *always* goes to -155.0 grs. That is a check on calibration everytime you pick the pan up. *Everytime* when I put the empty pan back on the platen it goes to 0.00 grs.

I gave my balance beam to a teenager who wants to start reloading - don't need it. A long time ago I remember jacking with the balance beam, finger tipping the beam down to let it come up, reweighing pulled bullet loads, cleaning the knives - not fond memories.

I have read many threads on digitals and would say that I can only recommend the RCBS as most of the complaints have been voiced by users of other brands. Mine has no reaction to cell phones and sits right under a single bulb flourescent light fixture. Is sensitive to vibrations and air movement though.

YMMV


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

Woods, I agree there are some good digital scales out there I just haven't justified it for my little program yet. Yet...


V/R
J


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

Bantam, sounds like you have the program down. I know this is unsolicited advice but I'm giving it anyway. If your cold barrel is always 1/2 left and 1/2 down then I would adjust it up and right and try to have my cold barrel come in dead on. You are handicapping yourself at 1000 by being low left to the tune of a half minute of angle. That about 5.5 inches low and 5.5 inches left. It may help on those cold 1000 yarders.


V/R
J


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

The problem is finding the time to hit my 1000+ spot in the desert. It's a 3 hour drive for me. The closest rifle range to me only has targets to 600. The last time I went I had no ballistic software to play with. I used something I found online and realized actual dope and software are 2 different things. I made the corrections in my log book for that day. I need to get back out and try again. I have learned a lot in the past months that I need to apply. I have also worked on my loads a lot more to make them more consistent. It all should help.


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

You have it down Bantam. There are two ways to look at long range. The hunter/sniper route and the target shooter route. Hunters have typically 1 maybe 2 shots at long distance to get it right. Target shooters have slighter shots in order to get it all sorted before making a scoring run. But sounds like you have learned one of the more valuable lessons, which is always make your own dope book. Not every scope that says it is 1/4 minute a click is truly that. And ballistic software just doesn't give you great accuracy.


V/R
J


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

My data book is a 3 ring binder. Not exactly field friendly but it holds everything I need including my load data. I have a lot to learn still but I am getting there. I just need more time, money and practice. I just clicked 1300 rounds through my rifle over the holidays. My problem is my schedule varies with work. I get most of my shooting in during the fall and winter when I am not traveling. From Jan-July I may have one or two weekends per month if that.


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

Even going through the motions with snap caps really helps. People tend to forget what keeping a consistent cheek weld does. The only way to have consistency is to practice and this aspect of it you can do at home with snaps.


V/R
J


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

Here are a couple of experiments for you that will really underscore what I am talking about on cheek weld. If you have a gun vice that you can look through the scope with go ahead and clamp your weapon down. Then look the the scope and sight in on a target. Then just make a very slight adjustment up or down in or out left or right on your cheek weld. Did the sight alignment move? When you can hit the same spot with your cheek each time it can really shrink your groups especially at long ranges.

Next do the same test only adjust the parallax on your scope and see if you POI moves.


V/R
J


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

I have already gone through this with my cheek weld and paralax. I have that all figured out now. I have almost 1300 rounds down the pipe on this rifle now. I know it isn't that many, but enough to know how everything should feel and where my cheek, arm and hands need to be. I have shot in all different positions to get comfortable with all of them. Body position is just as important as propper cheek weld.


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## prarie dog (Feb 28, 2011)

Have an experiment for you guys to try, a friend suggested it years ago and nothing has refuted the logic or conclusions drawn from it. Mix in a dummy round in your practice ammo that you can't identify easily. When you let off the dummy round and it misfires go over in your mind a. if you flinched. b. did your sight picture change c. which way did the rifle move, was it right hand, heavy trigger etc..
Then ask yourself, is your rifles recoil causing this stuff? Do you have the yips?
My friend shot thousands of rounds every year and won a lot of matches of various types and couldn't shoot anything much heavier than a 222 without developing the flinches. Another friend (ex special forces puss) was complaining the other day that he had the flinches so bad from shooting his 300 win mag that he might just hang it up. Can't hit anything. He's a good shooter too and I'm sure will get it worked out but the point is most guys really can't handle their rifles recoil. They think they can but they really can't. Before you guys start yelling foul, try it, then let me know. LOL


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## Bantam1 (Jun 26, 2007)

I'm at the point where I know if I jerked or moved when I have a bad shot. 

Tell your buddy to get a muzzle break for the 300WM if the recoil is affecting him. Its an easy way to solve that problem.


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

Placing a dummy round in the magazine works for new shooters to point out a shooting flaw that they are unaware of. You have to match what they are printing on a target to it. Most people will flinch when the gun goes click instead of bang because that's not what was expected. Where the bullets are impacting will tell you if it's a pull, a jerk, or a flinch. And they slipping in a dummy round will point it out in a visual way for the shooter. Seasoned shooters can tell if they have pulled a shot most of the time and will call it before they even look downrange. This doesn't affect dry practice. You expect a click when dry practicing and therefore don't flinch. However if it goes boom you may poop yourself. Dry practice works because you are able to practice your form, release, and follow through in a controlled environment, while watching for flaws that recoil would otherwise mask.


V/R
J


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

Oh and as for the recoil, unless it is causing physical pain. I would recommend wearing two sets of ear protection. A lot of problems associated with high recoil have been found to be the noise associated with large caliber's and muzzle brakes can exacerbate that. Besides ear plugs and ear muffs are a cheaper alternative to a muzzle brake and it is worth the shot. Pun intended.


V/R
J


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## TXPIRATE (Jan 28, 2009)

> Unless you have the means to buy and load in extreme bulk I don't feel there is any cost advantage over buying factory ammo. That is once you have figured in the start up costs.


Depends on the round. If you shoot a 7mm STW it is without a doubt worth it. I also shoot A LOT of 45 colt that is +P+. I don't have a lot of choices in ammo and what is out there expensive.

When it comes to accuracy bench rest shooters have proven that the gun/judging contitions is the most important. Many use only "dippers" for powder measuring. Now I know that the benchrest shooters I know only shoot at 200 yards but the groups they are producing could easily shoot to 1,000. That just isn't their game. I think that we can get too carried away with the precision of reloading thinking it is the end all be all. True it is important how we do it but consistancy is the most important.

With regards to kick. My personal experiance is that I try to let the gun suprise me but and the same time know about when it will go off. To keep from flinching with heavy recoiling rifles I tell myself it is not going to be pleasant and then concentrate on the shot completely. I find that sometimes I forget to take the safety off and in my mind I am thinking the gun should have gone off by now. That is how you know you have a good trigger pull. Just my opinion. I am not trying to start any wars here.


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## prarie dog (Feb 28, 2011)

Bantam1 said:


> Tell your buddy to get a muzzle break for the 300WM if the recoil is affecting him. Its an easy way to solve that problem.


It has one.


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