# guide with no guide license



## gunsmoke11 (Apr 30, 2012)

Talking to a nice guy this morning at the ramp and he said he was waiting on his customers to show up so I asked him where he got his license from because im thinking of getting mine. Well he told meddoesn't have one he said his customers just rent his boat and he goes with them....is that even legal? Whats the punishment for not having the guide license if he gets caught?


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## dominoman (Jan 11, 2014)

On top of being illegal, they are taking a huge risk of liability, if he doesn't have a license, I feel sure that he also has no kind of insurance. 

From the Parks and Wildlife Code:

Fishing Guide License

Required for any person who for compensation, accompanies, assists or transports any person engaged in fishing in the waters of the state. 
Sec. 47.051. PENALTY. Except as provided by Section 47.052 of this code, a person who violates a provision of this chapter commits an offense that is a Class C Parks and Wildlife Code misdemeanor.
Fine can range up to $500


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## cory4408 (Nov 29, 2008)

What would happen to be the huge risk of liability?


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## monkeyman1 (Dec 30, 2007)

cory4408 said:


> What would happen to be the huge risk of liability?


Really?


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## boom! (Jul 10, 2004)

Ask for one of his cards or his number. I'm sure that the coasties would like to schedule a trip.


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## Kenner 23 (Sep 14, 2009)

Lets see; fake guide runs over someone or other boat, they All are named in suit, Fake guide gets hit by another boater sports will have no coverage. For $2,000/yr the guide could be legal so do the monthly math. Wonder what bathroom wall the fella advertises on???


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## texasislandboy (Apr 28, 2012)

Alot of those types of (guides) got caught this year down here. I always make sure to have my paperwork in line.


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

This is a little peculiar to me. I'm not advocating running an unlicensed guide business, i'm curious about something. Let us assume that I wanted to open a boat rental business. It is a "one man show", and the only boat for rent is my own. It is insured. The customer can operate the boat if they choose, and they can choose where to run the boat. I require that I be on the boat with them. They don't have to fish, nor do I. If we're on the water, and they start asking me for good places to fish, and asking for tips and advice on how to fish, am I not allowed to give free advice? 

Understand this. I have NO interest in being a guide of any kind. I'm just curious if the law is written in a way where it could be cleverly skirted.


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

GulfCoast1102 said:


> This is a little peculiar to me. I'm not advocating running an unlicensed guide business, i'm curious about something. Let us assume that I wanted to open a boat rental business. It is a "one man show", and the only boat for rent is my own. It is insured. The customer can operate the boat if they choose, and they can choose where to run the boat. I require that I be on the boat with them. They don't have to fish, nor do I. If we're on the water, and they start asking me for good places to fish, and asking for tips and advice on how to fish, am I not allowed to give free advice?
> 
> Understand this. I have NO interest in being a guide of any kind. I'm just curious if the law is written in a way where it could be cleverly skirted.


 I think the key is to NOT skirt the law...to follow it. This allows for maximum safety for the guide AND his guests. 
Personally, I'd rather not be in court trying to explain this position to a judge. I'd rather be on the water catching fish and enjoying the outdoors.


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

photofishin said:


> I think the key is to NOT skirt the law...to follow it. This allows for maximum safety for the guide AND his guests.
> Personally, I'd rather not be in court trying to explain this position to a judge. I'd rather be on the water catching fish and enjoying the outdoors.


Typically, the "spirit of the law" of much harder to enforce than the "letter of the law". I'm just trying to understand where the "letter of the law" is being broken in my scenario.

I'm not promoting anything, nor am i looking for a "i'm right and you're wrong!" argument.

An answer of "just don't do it" is pretty worthless. I'm looking for someone to pick this thing open, and show me where the law is being broken.


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

GulfCoast1102 said:


> Typically, the "spirit of the law" of much harder to enforce than the "letter of the law". I'm just trying to understand where the "letter of the law" is being broken in my scenario.
> 
> I'm not promoting anything, nor am i looking for a "i'm right and you're wrong!" argument.
> 
> An answer of "just don't do it" is pretty worthless. I'm looking for someone to pick this thing open, and show me where the law is being broken.


 If someone is guiding without a license, they're clearly breaking the law. If a game warden suspects you're guiding and you don't have a license, be prepared to explain yourself in court. You might also find yourself minus fishing equipment and without a boat during the process.
I don't see the point in "theoretical" edges of a law. You either IS or you AINT.


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## texasislandboy (Apr 28, 2012)

You know it would be up to the TWPD officer that stops you. You could tell them all you wanted that you just rented the boat to them but I would almost be 100% sure you would still get a fine for guiding without a lic. You could tell him that you did not captain the boat but in the end its up to them. Best bet is to just get them paper work done and do it the right way if you want to guide.


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## V-Bottom (Jun 16, 2007)

Why don't these guys that TAKE people fishing (for $$), just shut there friggen mouths abouttaking "CUSTOMERS" and just say they are his friends. No one will ever know. IMO that is. It takes this GUIDE crappola clean out of the equation.


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

the problem comes when the Game Warden asks "the friends" for their licenses and starts asking any other questions. Chances are good that if this guy fishes the same bodies of water regularly, word will get around quickly. I worked as a guide. Don't be that guy...it's not worth it financially.


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## troutsupport (May 22, 2006)

GulfCoast1102 said:


> This is a little peculiar to me. I'm not advocating running an unlicensed guide business, i'm curious about something. Let us assume that I wanted to open a boat rental business. It is a "one man show", and the only boat for rent is my own. It is insured. The customer can operate the boat if they choose, and they can choose where to run the boat. I require that I be on the boat with them. They don't have to fish, nor do I. If we're on the water, and they start asking me for good places to fish, and asking for tips and advice on how to fish, am I not allowed to give free advice?


Here's the definition of fishing guide-
Fishing Guide:
a person who, for compensation, accompanies, assists, or transports a person or persons engaged in fishing in the water of this state.

It's the accompanies or assists or transports language that is likely to require the guide license. Now you could have all your paperwork indicate that it's a rental, but as soon as you assist them about fishing or transport fisherman.... well then those arrn't odds I'd play with. Especially since they can take the boat that was ... ummmm being 'rented'.


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## Duckchasr (Apr 27, 2011)

GulfCoast1102 said:


> This is a little peculiar to me. I'm not advocating running an unlicensed guide business, i'm curious about something. Let us assume that I wanted to open a boat rental business. It is a "one man show", and the only boat for rent is my own. It is insured. The customer can operate the boat if they choose, and they can choose where to run the boat. I require that I be on the boat with them. They don't have to fish, nor do I. If we're on the water, and they start asking me for good places to fish, and asking for tips and advice on how to fish, am I not allowed to give free advice?
> 
> Understand this. I have NO interest in being a guide of any kind. I'm just curious if the law is written in a way where it could be cleverly skirted.





V-Bottom said:


> Why don't these guys that TAKE people fishing (for $$), just shut there friggen mouths abouttaking "CUSTOMERS" and just say they are his friends. No one will ever know. IMO that is. It takes this GUIDE crappola clean out of the equation.


He said he just rented his boat nothing illegal there.

I agree V Bottom.

Heck after making your buddys pay for the gas, groceries, ice and drinks 
for taking them fishing are you still within the law.


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

I take my CPA & his brother on a fishing trip every year for doing my annual tax return...No $ ever changes hands...Does that make me a guide?


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

Blk Jck 224 said:


> I take my CPA & his brother on a fishing trip every year for doing my annual tax return...No $ ever changes hands...Does that make me a guide?


 maybe legally...however if you're at the ramp 4 times a week with different "friends" who are handing you cash at the end of a trip, you'll probably get questioned at some point by a Game Warden. Not sure why this is a difficult question.


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## Profish00 (May 21, 2004)

That would make my wife a guide.


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## fishingcacher (Mar 29, 2008)

Sounds like what Uber was trying to do to get around the taxi laws. The trip is free but a tip is appreciated. I am in no way condoning this practice.


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

dominoman said:


> On top of being illegal, they are taking a huge risk of liability, if he doesn't have a license, *I feel sure that he also has no kind of insurance. *


The way the law is written, you are a charter under the eyes of the law if a guest even helps pay for fuel.

I would say most trips put together with a bunch of buddies are legally charters as far as the coast gurad is concerned.


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## CAPSIZED (Aug 10, 2004)

Was Rick Jacobson a licensed guide?


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

CAPSIZED said:


> Was Rick Jacobson a licensed guide?


Careful now! You'll wind up with 2cool sanctions if you blaspheme the name of a legend!


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

Here are the regulations for Texas for both fresh and salt water- http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_v3400_0074.pdf

Note, if you are a saltwater guide, you'll also have to show your USCG Operators license in order to get a guide license.


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## MEGABITE (May 21, 2004)

troutsupport said:


> Fishing Guide:
> a person who, for compensation, accompanies, assists, or transports a person or persons engaged in fishing in the water of this state.


Pretty cut and dry right there.


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## CAPSIZED (Aug 10, 2004)

What "blaspheme" ??? It's a legit question



GulfCoast1102 said:


> Careful now! You'll wind up with 2cool sanctions if you blaspheme the name of a legend!


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## SeaOx 230C (Aug 12, 2005)

CAPSIZED said:


> Was Rick Jacobson a licensed guide?


No, Rick made it clear that he was an "instructor" being paid not to guide you to fish but to teach you how to correctly set up and read "your" electronics on "your" boat.


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## AlCapone (May 28, 2014)

dominoman said:


> From the Parks and Wildlife Code:
> 
> Fishing Guide License
> 
> ...


Technically, this law requires a lot of boat owners to have guide license.
It sounds like any boat owner who take any people (regardless families, relatives, or friends) out fishing on their boats need to have a guide license.
Tell me if I'm not correct.


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## Outearly (Nov 17, 2009)

When I hire a guide - for example in another state- I'm pretty comfortable he has the required safety equipment and knows how to handle an emergency. Meeting some Craigslist jackwad at the slip is risky for everyone.

People skirting/picking through/avoiding a clearly written law is - I think- one of the biggest challenges facing our country. And it's the well-educated greedy folks that are leading the charge.

A final rant - that dude is cash only and not paying his share of taxes. I have to pick up the tab.


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

CAPSIZED said:


> What "blaspheme" ??? It's a legit question


I was only ribbing you man! No hard feelings. It was only a joke. :biggrin:


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

AlCapone said:


> Technically, this law requires a lot of boat owners to have guide license.
> It sounds like any boat owner who take any people (regardless families, relatives, or friends) out fishing on their boats need to have a guide license.
> Tell me if I'm not correct.


NOT correct...here is the key phrase- "for compensation"


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## CaptBrad (Dec 29, 2007)

I'd be more worried if its the guide license or the OUPV/6PACK license from the USCG he doesn't have probably both.
Game warden ticket would be the least of his worries without a minimum of the OUPV or greater license. And whether he is guiding or not, he needs to have the USCG license if he is "escorting" customers on his vessel. 
There is a lot more in laws he's breaking by this.


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

Outearly said:


> When I hire a guide - for example in another state- I'm pretty comfortable he has the required safety equipment and knows how to handle an emergency. Meeting some Craigslist jackwad at the slip is risky for everyone.
> 
> People skirting/picking through/avoiding a clearly written law is - I think- one of the biggest challenges facing our country. And it's the well-educated greedy folks that are leading the charge.
> 
> A final rant - that dude is cash only and not paying his share of taxes. I have to pick up the tab.


 Not sure where you get that "well-educated greedy folks" are the source of the problem. MOST well educated people are smart enough to follow the law.


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

photofishin said:


> NOT correct...here is the key phrase- "for compensation"


You are correct. Technically, "compensation" could be anything from filling the boat with gas, to buying a sandwich, to agreeing to fix your car. Etc.

It is clever wording to be used as a "catch all" in the event that someone tries to run a fishing guide business under the guise of a "boat rental" business.

This is my expectation anyhow.

Some days i wonder if i should have went to law school instead of engineering school.


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## CAPSIZED (Aug 10, 2004)

I see said the blind man. Lol



SeaOx 230C said:


> No, Rick made it clear that he was an "instructor" being paid not to guide you to fish but to teach you how to correctly set up and read "your" electronics on "your" boat.


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## Wiredhernandez (Mar 6, 2005)

Pansy freaking society we live in.. Aside from the tax man wanting his due (as all of our tax paying folks pay our share) .. I don't get why anyone would even care so long as all parties have the required license (taxes again).. Ever hand a buddy gas money after a trip? Same group of guys make a such a big deal over law is the law (yes I follow it) .. take my AR from my cold dead hands... we sure do pick and choose the rules we want to live by.. people are indeed funny!


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## Puddle_Jumper (Jun 30, 2014)

photofishin said:


> NOT correct...here is the key phrase- "for compensation"


Photo.. I think what he was getting at is the compensation part.. When I takes friend fishing they always "pay" for fuel or beer or what ever.. That would be compensation ....Correct? I doubt a GW would ever actually ticket you for that but as the law is written.. That would constitute compensation I would think.. This is a interesting thread though


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## Hollon (May 9, 2013)

So a governing authority says for you to be able to drink a beer and smoke a cigar under a tree you have to pay for a permit. So then you go to this governing office and pay 12 centavos for this permit. Now all of a sudden drinking a beer and smoking a cigar under a tree is OK? It's funny how we all conform and are perfectly happy to pay a tax without even questioning the scenario.


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

Wiredhernandez said:


> Pansy freaking society we live in.. Aside from the tax man wanting his due (as all of our tax paying folks pay our share) .. I don't get why anyone would even care so long as all parties have the required license (taxes again).. Ever hand a buddy gas money after a trip? Same group of guys make a such a big deal over law is the law (yes I follow it) .. take my AR from my cold dead hands... we sure do pick and choose the rules we want to live by.. people are indeed funny!


Nobody is trying to take your guns. This is a pretty simple law and I'm having a hard time understanding why there are so many here that don't understand the difference between "sharing expenses" and "compensation".

Nobody is getting rich being a fishing guide, believe me.


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

photofishin said:


> Nobody is trying to take your guns. This is a pretty simple law and I'm having a hard time understanding why there are so many here that don't understand the difference between "sharing expenses" and "compensation".


The "law" you are pounding on so hard doesn't differentiate "shared expenses" vs "compensation".

Why do you differentiate it? It is "the law" after all. Right?


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

GulfCoast1102 said:


> The "law" you are pounding on so hard doesn't differentiate "shared expenses" vs "compensation".
> 
> Why do you differentiate it? It is "the law" after all. Right?


 yes it does...and if you don't believe me...feel free to ask your local Game Warden. Sharing expenses is NOT compensation and vice versa.


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

photofishin said:


> yes it does...and if you don't believe me...feel free to ask your local Game Warden. Sharing expenses is NOT compensation and vice versa.


Where is the written law that says so? I want to see it. You've been quick to point out the "law" so far.

Please do show me something that supports your argument, other than your opinion, or what "the local warden" told you.


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

GulfCoast1102 said:


> Where is the written law that says so? I want to see it. You've been quick to point out the "law" so far.
> 
> Please do show me something that supports your argument, other than your opinion, or what "the local warden" told you.


quit trolling and hire a lawyer to do your research for you. Sorry but I've actually been a guide and your need to "skirt the law" for some reason is pretty pathetic.

By the way...it's even on this site- http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?p=1604963#post1604963


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## Outearly (Nov 17, 2009)

photofishin said:


> Not sure where you get that "well-educated greedy folks" are the source of the problem. MOST well educated people are smart enough to follow the law.


Well, I'll provide an example.

Hedge fund operators (very well educated) usually get a "carried" interest in a deal. They put the deal together, an investor makes all or most of the investment. Deal goes great, the investor gets all of his money back, the hedge fund operator gets a big chunk of the gains on the investment, could be 40%, many hundreds of millions of dollars on a big deal.

Again, hedge fund operator doesn't risk much except time and expertise.

First payday is when the carried interest pays out.

The IRS, quite understandably, views that whopping gain as ordinary income, because it's not a return on invested capital to the hedge fund operator, only the investor.

The hedge fund industry argued (and lobbied and lobbied) that their windfall should be subject to the much lower capital gains rate. And they won.

So - a clearly written statute/law was circumvented by a greedy, well educated bunch. You and I pay ordinary income tax rates on our income, and they don't.

If we as a country roll down that road, we're all worse off.


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## ToddyTrout (Mar 15, 2005)

The difference in compensation and shared expenses has been litigated in both Federal and State cases. If buddies get together and share expenses for a fishing trip there's no violation. If the boat owner takes compensation over and above what the trip cost, then he is guiding.

If the owner takes people that aren't friends, but complete strangers and they pay for the cost of fuel, bait, etc. that is a charter.

I'm not a lawyer but I am a professional captain and retired Texas Game Warden.

There are grey areas to lots of laws, but on this one you would want to be very careful because if you have a so called "friend" on board that isn't happy with the trip and you get stopped by LE, well you get my drift.

TT


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

Outearly said:


> Well, I'll provide an example.
> 
> Hedge fund operators (very well educated) usually get a "carried" interest in a deal. They put the deal together, an investor makes all or most of the investment. Deal goes great, the investor gets all of his money back, the hedge fund operator gets a big chunk of the gains on the investment, could be 40%, many hundreds of millions of dollars on a big deal.
> 
> ...


 Sorry...go to "The Jungle" if you want to argue your Obama benefits.


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

photofishin said:


> quit trolling and hire a lawyer to do your research for you. Sorry but I've actually been a guide and your need to "skirt the law" for some reason is pretty pathetic.
> 
> By the way...it's even on this site- http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?p=1604963#post1604963


Thank you. I know you think i'm just being a dik, but i was serious with my question. What you provided was exactly what i was looking for.


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## BigBay420 (Jun 20, 2005)

*Charters*



ToddyTrout said:


> The difference in compensation and shared expenses has been litigated in both Federal and State cases. If buddies get together and share expenses for a fishing trip there's no violation. If the boat owner takes compensation over and above what the trip cost, then he is guiding.
> 
> If the owner takes people that aren't friends, but complete strangers and they pay for the cost of fuel, bait, etc. that is a charter.
> 
> ...


What he said


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## Puddle_Jumper (Jun 30, 2014)

Don't know bout y'all but this has been interesting to me with all the different opinions .....But when I hire a guide I want him or her to be a licensed coast guard approved guide. Sure don't need any problems out on the water from someone less.....the only "Friends" I take with me are REAL FRIENDS and we have lotsa fun weather we are catchin or just fishin


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## Logan (Aug 7, 2009)

any thought to maybe he meant "clients" from his "real job"?? not people paying him to take them fishing.

I know a few people that do this, and have done this myself....nothing wrong with that.


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

Logan said:


> any thought to maybe he meant "clients" from his "real job"?? not people paying him to take them fishing.
> 
> I know a few people that do this, and have done this myself....nothing wrong with that.


Funny that you mention that. I could have read the OP a dozen times and never would have thought about it like that. You could be right! lol


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## Smackdaddy53 (Nov 4, 2011)

What if...


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## LA Wader (Oct 22, 2013)

I just finished reading this whole thread! I am a charter boat captain. i put in the time years ago and got my USCG license and bought my state guide license for as many years to make sure that I comply with the laws. By having the state guide license, my customers on my vessel have to only pay a small cost for an out of state charter boat license. That is a benefit to the customer from out of state. With all this being said, if the person the OP was talking about never opens his mouth about being a guide (assuming he even is), then as long as his people are all on the same page as him there is no proof. More than likely his people would have resident licenses or non res license that they paid the regular price for and doing the whole "friends" deal if questioned. I've seen different scenarios take place, but some people never get caught.

It is too easy to do the right thing and get the proper documents and insurance needed to be a charter boat captain. I would hate to be the guy looking over his shoulder and praying that 4 people can all be on the same page when pulled to side by the GW! 

Good luck.


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## boltmaster (Aug 16, 2011)

Pud-knocker guide service for sure


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## SKIPJACKSLAYER (Nov 19, 2013)

Im not deep in the fishing guide community but I feel like these kinds of people would get torn to shreds by the real guides if they caught them. They'd be lucky to get caught by the game warden first into opinion.


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## Brian Castille (May 27, 2004)

Never know, the guy could have just been messing with you and didn't feel like answering a bunch of questions before the sun came up.


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## gunsmoke11 (Apr 30, 2012)

Brian Castille said:


> Never know, the guy could have just been messing with you and didn't feel like answering a bunch of questions before the sun came up.


Very true but the 8 fishing poles for 1 guy on a boat is a bit much... also we talked fishing after that so I know he was not just trying to end the conversation at that. Both sitting at a ramp nobody around why not BS some fishing.


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## AlCapone (May 28, 2014)

Puddle_Jumper said:


> Photo.. I think what he was getting at is the compensation part.. When I takes friend fishing they always "pay" for fuel or beer or what ever.. That would be compensation ....Correct? I doubt a GW would ever actually ticket you for that but as the law is written.. That would constitute compensation I would think.. This is a interesting thread though


It is what I tried to get into.
Compensation is in all forms, not just cold cash.
If someone owns a boat and takes their client out for a fishing outings. It's a compensation.
If someone takes their friends out fishing and they buy gas or food. It's a compensation. I've seen a lot of threads here asking for people to go with them on their boats ...


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## JustSlabs (Jun 19, 2005)

Last time I went fishing with a bud he gave me gas money for pulling the boat. I had a full tank so I used the money to buy something besides gas at a later date....guess he compensated me and I broke the law.


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## DTRPescador (May 24, 2012)

Hahaha, this can go on forever. If u ain't cheatin, u ain't trying. Lol


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

:idea: Tell the GW that you are a high dollar water vendor. The fishing trip is free, but the waters in the cooler are $50 each...10 water minimum per trip. Nuttin illegal about a free fishing trip for your high dollar water consuming clients is there!


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## gunsmoke11 (Apr 30, 2012)

Blk Jck 224 said:


> :idea: Tell the GW that you are a high dollar water vendor. The fishing trip is free, but the waters in the cooler are $50 each...10 water minimum per trip. Nuttin illegal about a free fishing trip for your high dollar water consuming clients is there!


Lol u just beat the system!


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## copano_son (Dec 17, 2007)

What are the laws on being a vendor on the water? Also, are these store bought waters or did the vendor bottle them him or herself?

Sorry, couldn't help but stick with this revolving door theme.



Blk Jck 224 said:


> :idea: Tell the GW that you are a high dollar water vendor. The fishing trip is free, but the waters in the cooler are $50 each...10 water minimum per trip. Nuttin illegal about a free fishing trip for your high dollar water consuming clients is there!


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

AlCapone said:


> It is what I tried to get into.
> Compensation is in all forms, not just cold cash.
> If someone owns a boat and takes their client out for a fishing outings. It's a compensation.
> If someone takes their friends out fishing and they buy gas or food. It's a compensation. I've seen a lot of threads here asking for people to go with them on their boats ...


 Once again, incorrect. Compensation is receiving pay, NOT sharing expenses- a link again for your viewing pleasure- http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?p=1604963#post1604963


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## SeaOx 230C (Aug 12, 2005)

This has been hashed out many times on the Blue Water Board as "sharing expenses" is quite common in offshore fishing, some times even with people you do not realy know, you found them on this board. There is even a Let's Share Expenses forum to advertise your need this.

For what its worth I think it goes like this(not saying it would just that it could):

Could a Game Warden write up an unlicensed person for taking "compensation" from "friends" for fuel, beer, food etc. on a trip? *Yes, as the law simply reads "compensation" and it is not the LEO's job to interpret law in the field.*

If a person in this situation was written up for this and went to court would it hold up? *No, because if true, it can easily be shown in court that no buisness transaction took place and that everyone involved was simply sharing expenses.*

Now then lets be real. I guess it could happen, but I have to believe that while by the letter it is not the GW's job to decide what a word in a law means, they have been given enough guidance from those that do to make the right call. So remember if you give a LEO a hard time be prepared because he can usaully make it harder on you than you can on him. After all he gets paid to sit in court win or lose you don't.


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## cruss (Aug 31, 2005)

*license*

It's sad to me that the government moved in and and requires licenses in the first place. Guides ran businesses for decades with no gov. interference and the're were no more problems than what you see now.


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## RedXCross (Aug 7, 2005)

WOW.


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## Pasadena1944 (Mar 20, 2010)

starting to sound that if you let someone help on the gas you might be charged for guiding without a license ..... we have to many laws in this country..... you can't even take a **** anymore without some law ......


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## FISHROADIE (Apr 2, 2010)

Thats pretty stupid of the guy to even say such a thing, you could have been the law for all he knew. I had a guide license for a couple of years, I never got to use it I ended up having to go back to my real job. But I would never be a guide with out having a license. And I would not care to go out on a trip with someone that did not have one. But how many people would think to ask, TPW is were you get them, I had to go to Bryan College Station to get mine. I learned a long time ago to watch what you say to people at the boat ramp. Years ago I went out LMB fishing on lake Conroe, I got skunked and it started raining hard. I got my boat on the trailer but my truck would not pull it out of the water, it was so wet the tire was spinning. All of a sudden 3 guys jumped in the back of my truck. I got some traction and got up the ramp, I jumped out and thanked the guys. 2 guys walked away 1 guy in a rain coat stayed and asked me if I had caught any. I told him no, he said are you sure not even 1. The whole time I never had really taken a good look at the guy we were all in rain coats and I was strapping the boat down. I was not happy about getting skunked anyway, so I looked up at the guy and was just about to ask him what are you some sort of $%# fish detective or something. I caught myself just in time, I could just see the edge of a badge sticking out from the rain coat. You never know who you might be talking to at a boat ramp.


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

ToddyTrout said:


> The difference in compensation and shared expenses has been litigated in both Federal and State cases. If buddies get together and share expenses for a fishing trip there's no violation. If the boat owner takes compensation over and above what the trip cost, then he is guiding.
> 
> If the owner takes people that aren't friends, but complete strangers and they pay for the cost of fuel, bait, etc. that is a charter.
> 
> ...


Toddy, has this been litigated in the past ten years or so? Reason I ask, I was told about 20 years ago by the coast guard in POC that what I said applied, and technically, if my guest helped pay for fuel, I was legally considered a charter.

I never thought the law was intended that way, but, it always made me nervous.


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## KEN KERLEY (Nov 13, 2006)

Just do things the right way and then you won't be creating another thread on 2Cool about somebody who thinks they're about half smart and all of the legal guides are dummies..


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## Drundel (Feb 6, 2006)

Is there a way to look up who has a valid USCG license?


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## CaptBrad (Dec 29, 2007)

Drundel said:


> Is there a way to look up who has a valid USCG license?


its on the homeport.USCG.mil website. Under 'MMC credential verification' on merchant mariners. You'll need some info on who you are looking up though, I know a lot of guides will put their ID# on their business cards and websites. Not all guides will give you that number though, its used with the USCG almost like a social security number.

Tried to copy paste the link, but phone won't cooperate right now. Its easy to find with Google though.


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## texasislandboy (Apr 28, 2012)

CaptBrad said:


> its on the homeport.USCG.mil website. Under 'MMC credential verification' on merchant mariners. You'll need some info on who you are looking up though, I know a lot of guides will put their ID# on their business cards and websites. Not all guides will give you that number though, its used with the USCG almost like a social security number.
> 
> Tried to copy paste the link, but phone won't cooperate right now. Its easy to find with Google though.


I did not think about doing that! I need new cards soon and will add that on them.


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## Bozo (Jun 16, 2004)

bigfishtx said:


> Toddy, has this been litigated in the past ten years or so? Reason I ask, I was told about 20 years ago by the coast guard in POC that what I said applied, and technically, if my guest helped pay for fuel, I was legally considered a charter.
> 
> I never thought the law was intended that way, but, it always made me nervous.


When I fished tournaments and called to ask the game wardens office here in houston, they transferred me to the Captain or some other title that was suppsoed to be the head honcho in charge to ask him about sharing expenses. I wanted to absolutely sure that we weren't breaking the law in any way so that we had no problems when we would win. Most tournament rules have a statement that says you must abide by all state laws when fishing or you will be dis qualified. You don't have to be ticketed or caught by law enforcement officers, just the fact that you didn't abide by any law, disqualifies you.

Any way, the head honcho of the houston office on the north belt told me that if any money changed hands between a passenger of the boat and the owner of the boat even if it was for shared expenses, or if I bought his lunch or paid for his gas in his truck to get to the tournament or supplied anything to the trip for him to use at all, then that was considered compensation for taking me in his boat fishing and it was technically against the law to do so.

What we had to do is form a non-profit unincorporated organization for our fishing tournaments to pool our expenses and equipment so that everything that it took to go to a tournament, fish the tournament and get back home went "through" the organization.

That allowed us to say the we didn't break the law by sharing expenses, the "organization" did everything. So no individual benefited by expense sharing, only the "organization" did.

The rule sucks and can get you disqualified if somebody really wants to push the issue.


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

Bozo said:


> When I fished tournaments and called to ask the game wardens office here in houston, they transferred me to the Captain or some other title that was suppsoed to be the head honcho in charge to ask him about sharing expenses. I wanted to absolutely sure that we weren't breaking the law in any way so that we had no problems when we would win. Most tournament rules have a statement that says you must abide by all state laws when fishing or you will be dis qualified. You don't have to be ticketed or caught by law enforcement officers, just the fact that you didn't abide by any law, disqualifies you.
> 
> Any way, the head honcho of the houston office on the north belt told me that if any money changed hands between a passenger of the boat and the owner of the boat even if it was for shared expenses, or if I bought his lunch or paid for his gas in his truck to get to the tournament or supplied anything to the trip for him to use at all, then that was considered compensation for taking me in his boat fishing and it was technically against the law to do so.
> 
> ...


 Once again, and read carefully...this is a USCG law, ie Federal Law...so Game Wardens likely would not have the appropriate information. (you called the wrong office)
Read this link and it has all you'll ever need to know about sharing expenses. http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?p=1604963#post1604963


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## SeaOx 230C (Aug 12, 2005)

photofishin said:


> Once again, and read carefully...this is a USCG law, ie Federal Law...so Game Wardens likely would not have the appropriate information. (you called the wrong office)
> Read this link and it has all you'll ever need to know about sharing expenses. http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?p=1604963#post1604963


I believe it is Texas State Law that all fishing guides have a State Issued Guides License, and those guiding in certain waters (Salt water) must also have a USCG issued Captains Licensce also known as a 6 pack license. SO would not the TpWD Law Enforcement Office be the correct one to call?


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## photofishin (Aug 7, 2009)

SeaOx 230C said:


> I believe it is Texas State Law that all fishing guides have a State Issued Guides License, and those guiding in certain waters (Salt water) must also have a USCG issued Captains Licensce also known as a 6 pack license. SO would not the TpWD Law Enforcement Office be the correct one to call?


 Not if you're asking questions about sharing expenses.
Read the link provided and it has all you need to know about sharing expenses versus compensation.


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## JakeNeil (Nov 10, 2012)

gunsmoke11 said:


> Very true but the 8 fishing poles for 1 guy on a boat is a bit much... also we talked fishing after that so I know he was not just trying to end the conversation at that. Both sitting at a ramp nobody around why not BS some fishing.


My rod and reels are some of my closest friend, maybe he gets lonely with out their company


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## Bozo (Jun 16, 2004)

photofishin said:


> Not if you're asking questions about sharing expenses.
> Read the link provided and it has all you need to know about sharing expenses versus compensation.


You are right that it is not against federal law, but it is against state law. Texas requires guide licenses on top of any federal regulation for guides. (Six pack).

The texas law does not afford for expense sharing. According to the wardens that i have spoken with, they don't enforce the law for expense sharing, but technically they could because there is no provision in the law for expense sharing.

So, even if you are not charged with breaking the law in a tournament, you can't say that you didn't break any law if you do share expenses and be truthful. Plain and simple, you are breaking a law, even if it is one that isn't enforced. That would disqualify you from a tournament if somebody pressed the issue.

So, if you tournament fish in Texas, in freshwater, the boat owner/driver needs to have the $125 guide license and in saltwater they need the $250 saltwater guide license. However, in salt, it is a requirement to have the federal six pack license to obtain the state saltwater guide license. So, if you don't want to have to have all the training and fees for getting a guide license, then you need to form the unincorporated non profit organizaiton and funnel all expenses through it. Basically it's just a piece of paper you create listing who is a partner and that the purpose of the organization is to fish and fund the fishing trips. So, when you buy gas for the boat, you aren't buying it for the boat owner, you are buying it for the organization. You don't need to file anything, open any accounts, pay a lawyer, nothing. It's just so you can honestly say, did you buy the boat owner anything when you went fishing?

Nope, I paid the "goning fishing group" some money for gas. It's the same thing but different.


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## CaptBrad (Dec 29, 2007)

texasislandboy said:


> I did not think about doing that! I need new cards soon and will add that on them.


Just ran mine out of curiosity of what it says. All they need is last name and reference number to verify the license. Only thing about the reference number, is someone call call the USCG and claim to be you or report you to them. Just kinda a FYI on how much info you put out there on cards.


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

Blk Jck 224 said:


> :idea: Tell the GW that you are a high dollar water vendor. The fishing trip is free, but the waters in the cooler are $50 each...10 water minimum per trip. Nuttin illegal about a free fishing trip for your high dollar water consuming clients is there!


I will take 2 bottles and want to drink them on your boat at your favorite bay it is october.


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## RedXCross (Aug 7, 2005)

[email protected],

I have been a professional water vendor for years not to mention many other beverages? Man I am digging this NEW law stuff, I need to get ahold of all my guide friends here and tell them they are doing it wrong! lmao:cheers:


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## elgatogus (Oct 27, 2010)

Anyone want to go fishing?? Must share expenses and bring your own water! lol
:an5::biggrin:


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