# 3 Point Hunting Club in Pineland, TX



## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Hi Guys, I was curious if any 2coolers had experience with this hunting lease? I'm considering joining it next year since it's so close to my fish camp. It's an MLD Level 3 and They now require trophy bucks to be 4 1/2 years old, which is appealing. I did speak with the president and he seemed like a good guy. 

I appreciate any insight that you may be able to provide.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

I think that I'm just going to go ahead and give them a try for 2014.

http://3pointhunting.com


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## royboy42

I am not familiar with that lease, but do know that area is know to have plenty of deer and hogs. If it's managed right should be a great place, best of luck to ya!


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## willyp007

*3point*

I've hunted at 3 point for three year's great lease been 8 buck's killed this year over 130 that I've seen a few more I didnot see


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Willy, I really appreciate the feedback. Can you tell me more about the 30 lease stands that you have to hunt for a year prior to having a private stand?

I'm 98% sure that I'm joining for next year but I've never hunted club stands and am not sure what to expect.


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## fredericksburghunter

I did not have a good experience or cared for how Bailey changed rules/managed this lease. It's his place not mine to choose that however and I opted out quickly. Best of luck


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

fredericksburghunter said:


> I did not have a good experience or cared for how Bailey changed rules/managed this lease. It's his place not mine to choose that however and I opted out quickly. Best of luck


Out of curiosity, what kind of rule changes are you talking about?


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## HTJ

I was a lease member there for 3 years, and opted out this season just to focus on fishing and family more. 

Laura and Bailey that run the lease are good folk, as are all of the members that I personally met. The lease is very family frendly, has a great camp ground and skinning rack and grows some quality deer. After opening weekend the place is very quiet and you will have it virtually to yourself. A loaal deputy lives about 50 yards outside the front gate, is a member himself and there are zero security issues in the campground.

I believe the "rules change" that stirred few members up was the change from a 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 yr old minimum. And there is some validity to both sides of that argument - if you want to grow big deer you have to let them grow up....but this is East TX and 20 deer dont run out every time the feeder goes off. In fact usually none do, you have to be a hunter and not just a shooter in East TX. 

When my brain cycles back to hunting in a year or three and I want an affordable East TX lease I would not hesitate one second to renew with 3 point.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

HTJ said:


> I was a lease member there for 3 years, and opted out this season just to focus on fishing and family more.
> 
> Laura and Bailey that run the lease are good folk, as are all of the members that I personally met. The lease is very family frendly, has a great camp ground and skinning rack and grows some quality deer. After opening weekend the place is very quiet and you will have it virtually to yourself. A loaal deputy lives about 50 yards outside the front gate, is a member himself and there are zero security issues in the campground.
> 
> I believe the "rules change" that stirred few members up was the change from a 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 yr old minimum. And there is some validity to both sides of that argument - if you want to grow big deer you have to let them grow up....but this is East TX and 20 deer dont run out every time the feeder goes off. In fact usually none do, you have to be a hunter and not just a shooter in East TX.
> 
> When my brain cycles back to hunting in a year or three and I want an affordable East TX lease I would not hesitate one second to renew with 3 point.


Great info and thank you for sharing your experiences. I've hunted east Texas my whole life and fully understand what to expect. I'm looking forward to the 4 1/2 year old rule to see what the lease can grow.


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## wacky-worm

This is my first year on the lease and I can say I am no fan of club stands. The good bucks mentioned above are mostly seen and killed on private stands. That being said, my previous lease was near Chester and the bucks I have seen come off the 3 point are bigger (age, body, and horns) than anything I saw in the last 9 years on the other lease. I think a big difference is if you allow a young deer to walk that was a legal shooter someone else isn't shooting it a couple weeks later as a wall hanger. They are shooting more mature bucks on the 3 point lease. I will be hunting there again next year and hopefully many years after that. Any lease will have it's problems with rules and camp ground issues, especially with 60+ memebers. Bottom line, I am a fan of the lease and not the club stands. My 9 year old did kill his first doe, so we have sausage meat.


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## JRATexas

Yall know how much membership is? That place looks fun... I might just join to go to the parties! haha


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

wacky-worm said:


> This is my first year on the lease and I can say I am no fan of club stands. The good bucks mentioned above are mostly seen and killed on private stands. That being said, my previous lease was near Chester and the bucks I have seen come off the 3 point are bigger (age, body, and horns) than anything I saw in the last 9 years on the other lease. I think a big difference is if you allow a young deer to walk that was a legal shooter someone else isn't shooting it a couple weeks later as a wall hanger. They are shooting more mature bucks on the 3 point lease. I will be hunting there again next year and hopefully many years after that. Any lease will have it's problems with rules and camp ground issues, especially with 60+ memebers. Bottom line, I am a fan of the lease and not the club stands. My 9 year old did kill his first doe, so we have sausage meat.


Great info and thank you for sharing. The club stand deal is my main concern. Not really looking forward to dropping almost $1,600 on a lease and not even have a private stand with a feeder to hunt. I guess one positive I the club stands is that you will have some variety if you get tired if hunting your one stand.


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## wacky-worm

The first year you hunt club stands, the second year you can have one personel stand and the third you get a second personel stand. Some first year members know older members that allow them to hunt their personal stands. No such luck with me. The lease is $1500 + a $50 food plot fee for planting at the clubstands. If you don't attend a at least one work day there is a $100 fee. There is a $35 water fee unless you have a camp then it is $60. $100 campsite fee if your camper is there after March or before September. $400 dollar electric fee if you hook up to electricity. In short $1550 for the lease. We have our camp set up to be there year round so we pay an extra $560 for our camp wich I split with a buddy (TDGAL). We also contribute our time, tractor and energy on the work weekends.


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## Backwater1

wacky-worm said:


> The first year you hunt club stands, the second year you can have one personel stand and the third you get a second personel stand. Some first year members know older members that allow them to hunt their personal stands. No such luck with me. The lease is $1500 + a $50 food plot fee for planting at the clubstands. If you don't attend a at least one work day there is a $100 fee. There is a $35 water fee unless you have a camp then it is $60. $100 campsite fee if your camper is there after March or before September. *$400 dollar electric fee if you hook up to electricity.* In short $1550 for the lease. We have our camp set up to be there year round so we pay an extra $560 for our camp wich I split with a buddy (TDGAL). We also contribute our time, tractor and energy on the work weekends.


The electric bill at that place is $5000 a month? yikes


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## atcfisherman

So the total is

$1500 = lease fees
$ 50 = food plot fees
$ 60 = water fee
$ 100 = camp year around fee
$ 400 = electricity feed

for a grand total of $2110???


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## Mrschasintail

We were on it two years in a row. We got off to get on family lease closer. The people that were there when we were there were awesome. We loved just being there. At the time we didn't see alot of big bucks, but from what I understand they are more plentiful now. It is VERY kid friendly, and the events were always so much fun!


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## bg

Backwater1 said:


> The electric bill at that place is $5000 a month? yikes


I read that as $400 for the year. If you're running a space heater in the winter or an A/C in the summer, that's a pretty good deal, even if you're only there 1 weekend a month.


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## wacky-worm

atcfisherman said:


> So the total is
> 
> $1500 = lease fees
> $ 50 = food plot fees
> $ 60 = water fee
> $ 100 = camp year around fee
> $ 400 = electricity feed
> 
> for a grand total of $2110???


You are correct sir.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

atcfisherman said:


> So the total is
> 
> $1500 = lease fees
> $ 50 = food plot fees
> $ 60 = water fee
> $ 100 = camp year around fee
> $ 400 = electricity feed
> 
> for a grand total of $2110???


Really not that bad for a year round camp when you consider that San Augustine Park on Sam Rayburn is only ten miles down the road. Toledo Bend would be 25-30 miles away.


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## tdgal

*3 point*

Doubles as a fish camp if Wacky-Worm would take me fishing !!!!!


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## Backwater1

bg said:


> I read that as $400 for the year. If you're running a space heater in the winter or an A/C in the summer, that's a pretty good deal, even if you're only there 1 weekend a month.


$400 x 62 members = $24,800

Electricity mainly only used 5 or less months a year.

$24,800/5 months = $4960/month

Just seems extremely high. My annual home electricity is only $1350. Probably worth every penny in August when you come in from planting food plots though. haha


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Where did you see they had 62 electric hook-ups?

It costs me more than this to keep electricity at my fish camp rather you use it or not.


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## Backwater1

Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> Where did you see they had 62 electric hook-ups?
> 
> It costs me more than this to keep electricity at my fish camp rather you use it or not.


Aren't there 62 members?


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## spurgersalty

Backwater1 said:


> Aren't there 62 members?


No, it only applies if you hook up to electricity. As said in wacky worms earlier post.

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## LouietheDrifter

62 family memberships / 6770 acres = woods that smell like people= mostly nocturnal deer. Just saying.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

LouietheDrifter said:


> 62 family memberships / 6770 acres = woods that smell like people= mostly nocturnal deer. Just saying.


Unfortunately, this is just a reality of hunting most of East Texas. I would be willing to pay more for fewer hunters per acre, but I'm not having much luck.


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## Backwater1

LouietheDrifter said:


> 62 family memberships / 6770 acres = woods that smell like people= mostly nocturnal deer. Just saying.


East Texas terrain can easily handle that ratio. Most properties in that region have 1 hunter per 70 acres.

This one has 1 to 109.


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## willyp007

*3 point hunting*

Sorry, for not getting back with you sooner. Just came back for lease 5 good buck's killed this weekend 22 buck's for the year 18 good one's. As for the management it's just like ever place i have ever hunted the last 35 year's some rule's i agree with some i don't. but overall a great lease with a good chance of killing a buck of a lifetime'


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

willyp007 said:


> Sorry, for not getting back with you sooner. Just came back for lease 5 good buck's killed this weekend 22 buck's for the year 18 good one's. As for the management it's just like ever place i have ever hunted the last 35 year's some rule's i agree with some i don't. but overall a great lease with a good chance of killing a buck of a lifetime'


Sounds like a pretty productive season especially considering they have a 4 1/2 yr age requirement on bucks. Thank you for the follow up.


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## Swampus

22 Bucks--any pic's from this year?

Looks kid friendly on their site.


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## indaskinny

Wow. Great first post. Tell us how you really feel.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Hi guys, just a brief update to my original inquiry. Initially, I was all in and ready to sign up for this lease for 2014, but after going on a tour I quickly realized that the place isn't for me. I think that the lease president has the right intentions on managing an east Texas lease for more mature deer, but I didn't get a good vibe from this operation at all. I work in a professional sales background, but the whole tour felt like a sales pitch (think those timeshare presentations). Based on the density of hunters/acre and the fact that their rates are MUCH higher than nearby leases, I really think that they are managing this timber company lease as a for-profit business. This is only my opinion and I have no proof, but it is a very strong feeling.

1) During my initial conversations with the lease president, he explained that your first year you had to hunt the club stands only. He also stated that they were actively feeding protein and that the club stands had food plots planted. From my tour, the club stands did not have food plots and there were no protein feeders on the lease.

2) I asked to have the rules sent to me numerous times before going on the visit, but never received a copy until the day of the tour. All discussions that we ever had, was that they required trophy bucks to be 4 1/2 yr old. This is an ambitious requirement for a no fence, East Texas timber company lease, but I was willing to give it a shot. When I was reading the rules around this, I noticed that they said all trophy bucks have to be 5 1/2 year old and the penalty for shooting a younger deer was $500 which was due immediately. I called this out and asked the president if you shoot a 150" 4 1/2 yr old ten point, would you get fined for it. He talked all around the answer, but never answered it directly (as he did for most questions asked that day). READ YOUR CONTRACT! 

There were just too many inconsistencies between what was spoken and actuality. I would strongly encourage any of you that are considering this lease to go there and do a tour of the property. You may find that it is good fit for what you are looking for, but I would advise against sending a payment sight unseen like I was being pressured to do. Happy Hunting!


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## RB II

My biggest issue with the "aging" of the deer on the hoof and a resulting fine afterward is that it is not an exact science. Even sending the jaw off to a lab can produce differing results. It would be a cold day in HE77 before I paid $500 fine for killing a mature, heavy horn and bodied deer. So this land manager can tell the difference between a 4 and 5 year old deer on the spot????? I don't think so.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

HydraSports said:


> My biggest issue with the "aging" of the deer on the hoof and a resulting fine afterward is that it is not an exact science. Even sending the jaw off to a lab can produce differing results. It would be a cold day in HE77 before I paid $500 fine for killing a mature, heavy horn and bodied deer. So this land manager can tell the difference between a 4 and 5 year old deer on the spot????? I don't think so.


I did kind of chuckle about how the fine portion was worded in the contract. It made the comment that you would not be allowed to leave the property with the deer until you paid the fine in full. That would be a fun one to watch them try and enforce.

I agree 100% about the "science" of aging a deer. I'd love to witness the argument between a 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 yr old....


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

Think about your question. A 150 class buck at 4 1/2 years of age?? What class will it be if you walked it another year and you let it continue to breed. I can't B&C my bucks off the hoof. That's impossible, so you probably clued the guy in that you had no idea what you were talking about. I'm currently on an game management lease and we've been at 5 1/2 years of age for 11 years. Our Board will implement fines that make the fine you listed sound like a dream come true. 
I'll admit to knowing nothing about East Texas game management, but that question would have sent our President into a frenzy.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

FishingallthetimeinmyJB said:


> Think about your question. A 150 class buck at 4 1/2 years of age?? What class will it be if you walked it another year and you let it continue to breed. I can't B&C my bucks off the hoof. That's impossible, so you probably clued the guy in that you had no idea what you were talking about. I'm currently on an game management lease and we've been at 5 1/2 years of age for 11 years. Our Board will implement fines that make the fine you listed sound like a dream come true.
> I'll admit to knowing nothing about East Texas game management, but that question would have sent our President into a frenzy.


If you admittedly know nothing about East Texas deer management on timber company land, why waste our time with proof of your ignorance?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## RB II

FishingallthetimeinmyJB said:


> Think about your question. A 150 class buck at 4 1/2 years of age?? What class will it be if you walked it another year and you let it continue to breed. I can't B&C my bucks off the hoof. That's impossible, so you probably clued the guy in that you had no idea what you were talking about. I'm currently on an game management lease and we've been at 5 1/2 years of age for 11 years. Our Board will implement fines that make the fine you listed sound like a dream come true.
> I'll admit to knowing nothing about East Texas game management, but that question would have sent our President into a frenzy.


Aging deer is not a science, NOBODY can tell without a doubt the age of a deer unless they raised it with a tag in its ear. Even to know from year to year that a specific deer (unless it has a specific defect or marking) is the same one from last year can be a huge question.

To complicate the issue, we are talking about E. Texas where you might only see a specific buck one time a year and then only for a few seconds. Not like S. Tx where there are hours of footage each year on a specific deer for a panel to decide to shoot or not. Then the next time he walks out he is taken or passed.


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## Backwater1

FishingallthetimeinmyJB said:


> Think about your question. A 150 class buck at 4 1/2 years of age?? What class will it be if you walked it another year and you let it continue to breed. I can't B&C my bucks off the hoof. That's impossible, so you probably clued the guy in that you had no idea what you were talking about. I'm currently on an game management lease and we've been at 5 1/2 years of age for 11 years. Our Board will implement fines that make the fine you listed sound like a dream come true.
> I'll admit to knowing nothing about East Texas game management, but that question would have sent our President into a frenzy.


 This is true though. Management is not about whether a 200" 3.5 year old should be shot. You manage to the age, not the B&C score.

If you can't pass a 150" deer because it is just too big not to shoot, even though it doesn't meet the age standards, then a fine is deserved. As mentioned above, there are some pretty hefty fines/penalties for not following the game management plan. If one person gets away with it, then everybody would get a free pass. $500 is pretty cheap for that to be honest.

I see where the manager is going with the rules as there has been success at a handful of ETX properties under similar programs w/ penalties. But, I kind of said from the beginning that the place looked like it was pulling in profit.


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## Backwater1

HydraSports said:


> Aging deer is not a science, NOBODY can tell without a doubt the age of a deer unless they raised it with a tag in its ear. Even to know from year to year that a specific deer (unless it has a specific defect or marking) is the same one from last year can be a huge question.
> 
> To complicate the issue, we are talking about E. Texas where you might only see a specific buck one time a year and then only for a few seconds. Not like S. Tx where there are hours of footage each year on a specific deer for a panel to decide to shoot or not. Then the next time he walks out he is taken or passed.


 Aging deer may not be exact, but its pretty dang close and every properly managed ranch and wildlife biologist in the country ages deer on the hoof.

Also, this property is not typical ETX. It has a lot more property and a lot less hunters/pressure than what is typically found in that region. You would be surprised how much ETX can produce both in quality bucks and deer behavior when hunting pressure is reduced and proper management practices are enforced. When done correctly, those bucks can be judged and watched just like any other ranch in South Texas can do.


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## Rack Ranch

There is a very very small percentage of leases anywhere in Texas where members pass on a 150'' buck. Most would chat themselves if a 150'' buck stepped out. They are not going to take the time to decide if he is 5.5 or not, they are going to be to busy reaching for the toilet paper.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

My problem wasn't with the 5 1/2 yr old requirement, it was the way it was included in the contract although the president had always stated they had a 4 1/2 yr requirement. Even the actual day of the tour. It was inconsistency after inconsistency when dealing with them and I didn't trust them. 

This property was very typical of East Texas and has more memberships per acre than any of the other leases I have looked at or been on. Bear Creek down the road has nearly double the land and slightly more members.


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

I can tell Black Water understands game management. I summed that up in 2 seconds. 
I am a die hard for game management. 
Remove geographical locations the question you asked during your interview is telling to your lack of knowledge within game management. Game management is game management no matter where you are hunting. You have set limitations within game management period. The better question would be where are your limitations really set instead of giving the impression you would shoot a 150 class buck no matter what the age limitation is while giving the impression of I dare you to fine me. You stated the guy stopped answering your direct questions that were answered within the contract. If this guy is anything like me, or my president we would have shut down the interview immediately. Your question sent off all my alert flags. Makes sense as to why you had a bad interview. You would be online saying worse about me. 
Yes, there are people in Texas that would shoot a 150 Class buck anywhere in Texas that do not belong on Game Managed Ranches.
I don't understand the 4 1/2 to 5 1/2. We went straight from 3 1/2 years of age to 5 1/2 from one season to the next. It caused two guys to leave our group that couldn't grasp game management either. After 11 years at 5 1/2 years of age we have no regrets.


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## RB II

FishingallthetimeinmyJB said:


> I can tell Black Water understands game management. I summed that up in 2 seconds.
> I am a die hard for game management.
> Remove geographical locations the question you asked during your interview is telling to your lack of knowledge within game management. Game management is game management no matter where you are hunting. You have set limitations within game management period. The better question would be where are your limitations really set instead of giving the impression you would shoot a 150 class buck no matter what the age limitation is while giving the impression of I dare you to fine me. You stated the guy stopped answering your direct questions that were answered within the contract. If this guy is anything like me, or my president we would have shut down the interview immediately. Your question sent off all my alert flags. Makes sense as to why you had a bad interview. You would be online saying worse about me.
> Yes, there are people in Texas that would shoot a 150 Class buck anywhere in Texas that do not belong on Game Managed Ranches.
> I don't understand the 4 1/2 to 5 1/2. We went straight from 3 1/2 years of age to 5 1/2 from one season to the next. It caused two guys to leave our group that couldn't grasp game management either. After 11 years at 5 1/2 years of age we have no regrets.


Dont feed this troll.


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

Hydrasports, you and I are the same age. Why would you not want a 35 year old to understand game management if they are looking at game managed ranches? The penalties can be avoided by educational conversations. This particular lease would hardly have serious repercussions, but that will not be the case if he carries this mindset to other game managed ranches.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

FishingallthetimeinmyJB said:


> I can tell Black Water understands game management. I summed that up in 2 seconds.
> I am a die hard for game management.
> Remove geographical locations the question you asked during your interview is telling to your lack of knowledge within game management. Game management is game management no matter where you are hunting. You have set limitations within game management period. The better question would be where are your limitations really set instead of giving the impression you would shoot a 150 class buck no matter what the age limitation is while giving the impression of I dare you to fine me. You stated the guy stopped answering your direct questions that were answered within the contract. If this guy is anything like me, or my president we would have shut down the interview immediately. Your question sent off all my alert flags. Makes sense as to why you had a bad interview. You would be online saying worse about me.
> Yes, there are people in Texas that would shoot a 150 Class buck anywhere in Texas that do not belong on Game Managed Ranches.
> I don't understand the 4 1/2 to 5 1/2. We went straight from 3 1/2 years of age to 5 1/2 from one season to the next. It caused two guys to leave our group that couldn't grasp game management either. After 11 years at 5 1/2 years of age we have no regrets.


LOL, I didn't have a bad interview. Reading comprehension isn't a strong point of yours is it? The guy was asking me to give him a check on the spot (and on the phone prior to seeing the property) with the pressure tactic that all of the spots are nearly filled. Heck, he even wanted me to send a $1,000 payment in December to hunt out the rest of the year and ensure I had a spot in 2014.

I never said that the guy "stopped" answering questions directly. He didn't answer questions directly from the beginning (there were ~10 people at this showing). I don't think it was intentional, just how the guy is. He loves to hear himself talk (and repeat what he's already said) and he would have no problems telling you that.

The reason that I asked the 4 1/2 yr old 150" question is because it should have been a black/white answer that yes, there would be a $500 fine. His answer went down multiple off-topic paths, but the jest of it was that there wouldn't be a fine. He and his wife were actually okay with members shooting 4 1/2 yr old deer, but they didn't want people shooting 3 1/2 year old deer. Yet, he wants you to sign a contract stating that you'll pay a $500 fine for anything under 5 1/2. I deal with contracts daily for a living and what you sign your name to is all that matters.

I'm glad to hear that things are working out so well on your lease. You have conveniently failed to mention where this game management program is successfully thriving, how many acres you are managing and what the surrounding land owners are doing to manage the heard. Unless you are hunting in a fence, you are smoking crack to think that none of these factors affect "game management" in a geographic area.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

FishingallthetimeinmyJB said:


> Hydrasports, you and I are the same age. Why would you not want a 35 year old to understand game management if they are looking at game managed ranches? The penalties can be avoided by educational conversations. This particular lease would hardly have serious repercussions, but that will not be the case if he carries this mindset to other game managed ranches.


LOL,,, We have three of your four posts.... Keep trolling!


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## Backwater1

HydraSports said:


> Dont feed this troll.


 His words outline pretty SOP for finding new members for high caliber ranches. Ranch managers are interviewing the member the same, if not more so, than the member is interviewing the manager.


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## Backwater1

Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> LOL, I didn't have a bad interview. Reading comprehension isn't a strong point of yours is it? The guy was asking me to give him a check on the spot (and on the phone prior to seeing the property) with the pressure tactic that all of the spots are nearly filled. Heck, he even wanted me to send a $1,000 payment in December to hunt out the rest of the year and ensure I had a spot in 2014.
> 
> I never said that the guy "stopped" answering questions directly. He didn't answer questions directly from the beginning (there were ~10 people at this showing). I don't think it was intentional, just how the guy is. He loves to hear himself talk (and repeat what he's already said) and he would have no problems telling you that.
> 
> *The reason that I asked the 4 1/2 yr old 150" question is because it should have been a black/white answer that yes, there would be a $500 fine. His answer went down multiple off-topic paths, but the jest of it was that there wouldn't be a fine. He and his wife were actually okay with members shooting 4 1/2 yr old deer, but they didn't want people shooting 3 1/2 year old deer. Yet, he wants you to sign a contract stating that you'll pay a $500 fine for anything under 5 1/2. I deal with contracts daily for a living and what you sign your name to is all that matters.
> *
> I'm glad to hear that things are working out so well on your lease. You have conveniently failed to mention where this game management program is successfully thriving, how many acres you are managing and what the surrounding land owners are doing to manage the heard. Unless you are hunting in a fence, you are smoking crack to think that none of these factors affect "game management" in a geographic area.


No way I would have signed up either. Rules are rules. No exceptions. Gray areas cause nothing but problems.

If the rules aren't followed, then the place is mismanaged. He may be seeing a lot of turnover and just trying to sell spots to keep him out of the red.

Wouldn't have passed my gut test either.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Backwater1 said:


> No way I would have signed up either. Rules are rules. No exceptions. Gray areas cause nothing but problems.
> 
> If the rules aren't followed, then the place is mismanaged. He may be seeing a lot of turnover and just trying to sell spots to keep him out of the red.
> 
> Wouldn't have passed my gut test either.


Bingo! That was exactly my thoughts!


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## RB II

Backwater1 said:


> His words outline pretty SOP for finding new members for high caliber ranches. Ranch managers are interviewing the member the same, if not more so, than the member is interviewing the manager.


Maybe so, but I am way too far down this road to put up with that kind of mess when I am paying my money. I will add, at no time in my life was I weak enough to let wanting to kill a deer (or any other of lifes endeavours) be so important that I allowed myself to be subject to another man. Yall act like being on that friggin ranch is a big deal. WHO cares. Obviosuly GR8 understands what I am talking about and has made his decision that this ranch isn't for him.

My original point was that aging deer is an inexact science and I would not pay $500 on the spot to some yahoo ranch manager who thought he could age a dead deer right then. Aint happening. Yall can be subjected to that craziness all you want. Not me.

Yall carry on this old tired discussion as you see fit. I will just keep doing what I have been doing without having to deal with some pompus so called deer expert.


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

Backwater1 said:


> His words outline pretty SOP for finding new members for high caliber ranches. Ranch managers are interviewing the member the same, if not more so, than the member is interviewing the manager.


Backwater, your wisdom is spot on. It takes a special breed to be a deer lease president. I'll admit that I chuckled when he said the guy offered that he could hunt for $1000.00 dollars after rut (no one with any sense would agree to that) and he saw that as high pressured sales??? We've listened to our president say some crazy things to deter a potential member, and to unhook them without them even knowing. We asked him why he does this and he says he doesnâ€™t want to be the ($^% that he is. Our President is interviewing the members and they think they are interviewing him. How ticked would you be if you drove 8 hours to be told that you are not being allowed to join.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

FishingallthetimeinmyJB said:


> Backwater, your wisdom is spot on. It takes a special breed to be a deer lease president. I'll admit that I chuckled when he said the guy offered that he could hunt for $1000.00 dollars after rut (no one with any sense would agree to that) and he saw that as high pressured sales??? We've listened to our president say some crazy things to deter a potential member, and to unhook them without them even knowing. We asked him why he does this and he says he doesnâ€™t want to be the ($^% that he is. Our President is interviewing the members and they think they are interviewing him. How ticked would you be if you drove 8 hours to be told that you are not being allowed to join.


With as much as you gloat about your deer lease pres, I'm pretty sure that there's a little more to y'all's relationship. Does he get mad when you pull the covers off to your side?


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## Rack Ranch

President?? What does Obama have to do with this? Who calls their lease manager President?? I think someone joined 2cool just for this thread...Time will tell!!


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## Backwater1

HydraSports said:


> Maybe so, but I am way too far down this road to put up with that kind of mess when I am paying my money. I will add, at no time in my life was I weak enough to let wanting to kill a deer (or any other of lifes endeavours) be so important that I allowed myself to be subject to another man. Yall act like being on that friggin ranch is a big deal. WHO cares. Obviosuly GR8 understands what I am talking about and has made his decision that this ranch isn't for him.
> 
> My original point was that aging deer is an inexact science and I would not pay $500 on the spot to some yahoo ranch manager who thought he could age a dead deer right then. Aint happening. Yall can be subjected to that craziness all you want. Not me.
> 
> Yall carry on this old tired discussion as you see fit. I will just keep doing what I have been doing without having to deal with some pompus so called deer expert.


I don't think you give deer aging enough credit. That is how every successfully managed ranch is run and honestly, the only way it really can be.

The only reason why the state doesn't implement age restrictions is because average and even above average hunters cannot successfully age a deer on the hoof. Trust me, their biologists would love to see that and the state deer herd would benefit, but it would be impossible to enforce and be detrimental to hunter involvement in this state.

A side effect of such rules also makes hunters think twice before pulling the trigger and make an educated guess instead of getting buck fever. Knowing that deer may cost a little extra can keep that finger off the trigger a little longer. But with the availability of hundreds of models of relatively inexpensive game cameras, lots of scouting prior to the season can be done and decisions made before that buck even steps out in front of you.


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## RB II

You miss my point. You can't tell the difference between a 4 yr old and a 5 yr old hanging on a skinning rack to be able to assess a fine. I agree when you wait until they are 7 or 8 you can tell the difference than a 4 yr old.


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## duhunter

Question on this five hundred dollar fine, even though he might be the lease manager, where does this 500 dollars go? his pocket or back into improving the lease?


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

duhunter said:


> Question on this five hundred dollar fine, even though he might be the lease manager, where does this 500 dollars go? his pocket or back into improving the lease?


He did not disclose any of the financials, but did say that his wife was the enforcer of the fines and she didn't play around with collections. It did not sound like they had a typical board of directors with treasurer, etc...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BretE

Rack Ranch said:


> There is a very very small percentage of leases anywhere in Texas where members pass on a 150'' buck. Most would chat themselves if a 150'' buck stepped out. They are not going to take the time to decide if he is 5.5 or not, they are going to be to busy reaching for the toilet paper.


RR, with all due respect, I can't say I agree with this. I hunt two south Texas ranches and the only 150" we'd shoot would be a monster 8 possibly. Maybe we are the exception but we routinely let 150's and a lot of 160's walk. You may be right but I'd like to hear how many who hunt S. Texas would take a mature 150"....maybe I have set the bar too high.....

Guess I need to start a new thread, don't wanna hi jack this one....


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## grayson

Brete said:


> RR, with all due respect, I can't say I agree with this. I hunt two south Texas ranches and the only 150" we'd shoot would be a monster 8 possibly. Maybe we are the exception but we routinely let 150's and a lot of 160's walk. You may be right but I'd like to hear how many who hunt S. Texas would take a mature 150"....maybe I have set the bar too high.....
> 
> Guess I need to start a new thread, don't wanna hi jack this one....


I agree Bret - maybe not so much in years past but with the management programs in place now across much of South Texas I think a number of ranches pass on 150 inch bucks. The standard has clearly changed


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## Rack Ranch

That's why I said a ''small percentage'' and IMO that smal percentage is where you are hunting. I may be off on my numbers but if you take the amount of land that is leased across the state, small percentage has to be pretty close. I didn't want to get into an East Texas V South Texas thing but the property in question is a lot further East than you are hunting Brete.

How many people that hunt Northeast of you even get to put a 150+ low fence buck in their cross hairs? I would say only the chosen few. And of those how many do thing stop to age the buck? Serious question bro, because I don't think its very many.



Brete said:


> RR, with all due respect, I can't say I agree with this. I hunt two south Texas ranches and the only 150" we'd shoot would be a monster 8 possibly. Maybe we are the exception but we routinely let 150's and a lot of 160's walk. You may be right but I'd like to hear how many who hunt S. Texas would take a mature 150"....maybe I have set the bar too high.....
> 
> Guess I need to start a new thread, don't wanna hi jack this one....


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## tc hardhead

Brete said:


> RR, with all due respect, I can't say I agree with this. I hunt two south Texas ranches and the only 150" we'd shoot would be a monster 8 possibly. Maybe we are the exception but we routinely let 150's and a lot of 160's walk. You may be right but I'd like to hear how many who hunt S. Texas would take a mature 150"....maybe I have set the bar too high.....
> 
> Guess I need to start a new thread, don't wanna hi jack this one....


You and your ranch is not the norm. Like apples and oranges.


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## BretE

Rack Ranch said:


> That's why I said a ''small percentage'' and IMO that smal percentage is where you are hunting. I may be off on my numbers but if you take the amount of land that is leased across the state, small percentage has to be pretty close. I didn't want to get into an East Texas V South Texas thing but the property in question is a lot further East than you are hunting Brete.
> 
> How many people that hunt Northeast of you even get to put a 150+ low fence buck in their cross hairs? I would say only the chosen few. And of those how many do thing stop to age the buck? Serious question bro, because I don't think its very many.


Yeah, I was thinking strictly south Texas for some reason. I agree in east Texas a mature 150" would hit the ground immediately.....


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

Well, I called the guy, his name is Bailey. It wasnâ€™t hard to ask him directly with his number on the website. I had a very different interview with him since he realized fairly quickly that I have intelligence on game management. The one truthful thing is he does love to talk and answered all my questions. I have to give him thumbs up trying to game manage a lease within East Texas with his member base. 

I asked him unambiguously with zero wiggle room if he fines for bucks 4 Â½ years of age with a limitation set to 5 Â½ years of age? He said that when you have a member base such as his, that you have to train every member to fully understand how to age a buck off the hoof, especially when a percentage may be inexperienced in doing so in East Texas. He further stated he has a strong core group that is very capable of ageing bucks and helping others to learn as well. He utilizes* Vicente Pena and James Kroll*, and has game management classes on his lease for his members. The fine is put into effect to make hunters think. (Yes I took notes during our conversation) He is fair and balanced, and his goal is to get people off the minimum line. He stated there is a percentage within his members, in East Texas, that cannot tell the difference between a 4 Â½s and 5 Â½s. There is a vast difference between those ages and 3 Â½s, therefore he will fine all 3 Â½â€™s next season while he continues to get all of his members on the same page and trained to get off the minimum. As more and more East Texas leases pick up the program and train people, he can draw hard lines in the sand. He said this isnâ€™t an inconsistency or a gray area within his rules. Itâ€™s a factual and a realistic issue within a percentage of hunters in the area, which is East Texas. It was clear to me and without question. He believes in time, East Texas bucks will be equivalent to south Texas bucks. He was very open to pointers and suggestions. He said that he has several south Texas members on his lease that are helping as well. 

The fine money goes to free t-shirts, coffee cups, etc. They have some kind of event at the end of the year. Itâ€™s not for him to pocket or punish his members. 

I further told him he had some bad PR at 2cool. He said he was made aware of this and even expected it for more than one reason. The age change and he doesnâ€™t enjoy having to throw any member off his lease or disinvite them back. The bad PR happens afterwards, without them posting what they did to get removed from the lease. He said he has no desire to address it and understands it will only start a â€˜volleyâ€™ of back and forth, nor is he an active member of 2cool. He thinks everyone should have to insert a driverâ€™s license prior to posting on a forum. Last year, the majority of his members expressed wanting to go to 5 Â½ to get the inexperienced members off the 3 1/2s, since a percentage was looking for the minimum of 4 1/2s, which caused 3 1/2s to come in. By bumping up the age, this would sequentially cause plenty of 4 1/2s and 5 1/2s. He said his property has a lot of coverage and getting a buck in East Texas after 5 Â½ is a challenging task, but not impossible. He was expecting some backlash from this decision. If he did have a conversation with a potential member back in December he would have stated they were at 4 Â½, since they were during that time. The age change came about after a meeting with his membership after Christmas to change the age limitations to 5 1/2s. He would not take a $1000 dollars from anyone to hunt after rut. He laughed. What he does recall is a prospect being adamantly against hunting the club stands for his first season and asking what he could do within the current season (Mid December), to avoid club stands at all costs. He recalls the guy even asking if he could join within the current season to avoid hunting club stands the next season. It didnâ€™t happen and most likely why the guy didnâ€™t join since he would have to do a year at club stands, as all new members do prior to getting a private stand. At best he could put down a deposit for the following season. What we are arguing about on age at 2cool doesnâ€™t even register with him and he doesnâ€™t recall the question from a prospect, but maybe he did get that question since it is common. So my apology to outdoorGR8. He does vet members during his interview, but was not vetting out outdoorGR8 (so my apologies again). His exact words were vetting. He believes the confusion is legit on outdoorGR8â€™s part since there was an age change late December by request of his long term members. He isnâ€™t repulsed by the question since it is a common question all his members ask that are not feeling confident in aging bucks between 4 1/2 s and 5 1/2s years of age in East Texas. 

I had a great vibe off the guy, and he wasnâ€™t offended by any of my suggestions or questions. If someone is willing to bring game management to East Texas why not reach out with a supporting hand. I was surprised to learn this lease is a level 3. He also had his wife forward me newsletters from his previous year since they were not on his website yet. His bucks are outstanding for the area. 

He asked me a question; I could not answer. If a doe at the time she is able to start breeding is killed, how many deer have you taken out of the gene pool over her lifespan? 

I found this question odd, but intriguing! He went on to say that this question really makes a person stop to think that it is really not one shot, one kill! The answer is close to 2000 deer, and this is where I hung up on the guy. LOL! He was right! 

I want to join this dude's lease! Too bad I have too much money in mine in South Texas.


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## RB II

So, fishingallthe time, the question about the doe impressed you??? Really? And you are a self proclaimed deer guru??? Hardly. That concept has been around for all time. My Grandfather leased his land in Colorado Co 60+years ago and he would not allow does to be taken for this very reason.


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

HydraSports said:


> So, fishingallthe time, the question about the doe impressed you??? Really? And you are a self proclaimed deer guru??? Hardly. That concept has been around for all time. My Grandfather leased his land in Colorado Co 60+years ago and he would not allow does to be taken for this very reason.


 Well our group tells us to take does. We are South Texas, and I found this difference in opinion enlightening!


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## willydavenport

You're really obsessed with this guy. But you pretty much confirmed what GR8 said with regards to the fact that the contract states you'll be fined for shooting a deer less than 5-1/2 years old, but not really. Or maybe you will if his old lady is in a bad mood. No thanks.


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

Nope, I believe in game management, and if some guy in ETX wants to game manage I'm going to reach out and help! I gave him a ton of tips and suggestions instead of postting on some stupid board a debate. I know game managed leases take a lot of heat, thus the reason I wanted to help. I seek it out.


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

I think Hydrosport and Willydavenport don't get it because they have a bunch of little racks on their walls.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

LOL,,,, Could it be any more obvious that fishingallthetimeinmyJB is affiliated with this hunting club?! This was exactly the cheesy kinds of things that scared me away from the lease!

He creates an account and joins 2cool on Sunday as a self-proclaimed deer management expert with no experience in East Texas timber company leases and immediately jumps into this one post feverishly defending the ways of this hunting club. He has no established credibility based on past interactions and conveniently refuses to disclose details of his thriving South Texas ranch (with an amazing lease president I must add that he admires considerably). 

He is so moved by this post that he takes the initiative to call the lease president and take hand-written notes on their discussion. Does a full investigative report on nearly every negative point discussed in this thread. LOL, give me a break!!!! 

Look, this is a public forum where you're encouraged to share experiences and personal opinions on whatever topics you like. I couldn't have been more clear when I said in my follow-up review that it was completely my opinion on what was stated. I made the effort to go personally visit this hunting lease and quickly realized it wasn't the right fit for me based on the experiences mentioned. I also suggested that it may be the right fit for others, but they should go visit the place before deciding. I was sold based on my phone conversations, but wasn't based on my visit. Based on the private messages that I received, it was a 50/50 split between those that enjoyed their existing memberships and those that were getting off or had gotten off. 

Hopefully someone that is considering this hunting club will find this thread and read it from start to finish. There were many useful postings here (both positive and negative) that will give them an idea of what to expect.

There's too **** many bass to catch and I'm done with this thread! :cheers:


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## Gearman

I guess I don't get it, if you are so worried about managing your deer heard and trying to raise trophy bucks then why are you leasing 62 spots on such a small piece of land? One of the reasons south Texas can raise big deer and they get old is because there isn't a person for every 100 acres. If you want to follow south Texas management practice then start with the number of hunters you put on some land. In the end it is about him making lots of money and claiming he has a great management program. When really it is just another east Texas lease where the deer are scared to death


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## Rack Ranch

This is a pretty good read on Carrying Capacity. Enjoy...

http://www.whitetaildomains.com/Articles/ShowArticle.aspx/192/Carrying



Gearman said:


> I guess I don't get it, if you are so worried about managing your deer heard and trying to raise trophy bucks then why are you leasing 62 spots on such a small piece of land? One of the reasons south Texas can raise big deer and they get old is because there isn't a person for every 100 acres. If you want to follow south Texas management practice then start with the number of hunters you put on some land. In the end it is about him making lots of money and claiming he has a great management program. When really it is just another east Texas lease where the deer are scared to death


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## Backwater1

Gearman said:


> I guess I don't get it, if you are so worried about managing your deer heard and trying to raise trophy bucks then why are you leasing 62 spots on such a small piece of land? One of the reasons south Texas can raise big deer and they get old is because there isn't a person for every 100 acres. If you want to follow south Texas management practice then start with the number of hunters you put on some land. In the end it is about him making lots of money and claiming he has a great management program. When really it is just another east Texas lease where the deer are scared to death


Its a waste of time to compare ETX to STX. They are two completely different regions with two completely different types of terrain, amount of browse, etc.

You can easily and safely hunt 62 people on 6700 acres of ETX property. You cannot do the same in STX or the hill country. That property should be able to sustain 500+ deer with supplemental food plots. Honestly, you need that many hunters to keep the numbers in check.


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## tc hardhead

Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> LOL,,,, Could it be any more obvious that fishingallthetimeinmyJB is affiliated with this hunting club?! This was exactly the cheesy kinds of things that scared me away from the lease!
> 
> He creates an account and joins 2cool on Sunday as a self-proclaimed deer management expert with no experience in East Texas timber company leases and immediately jumps into this one post feverishly defending the ways of this hunting club. He has no established credibility based on past interactions and conveniently refuses to disclose details of his thriving South Texas ranch (with an amazing lease president I must add that he admires considerably).
> 
> He is so moved by this post that he takes the initiative to call the lease president and take hand-written notes on their discussion. Does a full investigative report on nearly every negative point discussed in this thread. LOL, give me a break!!!!
> 
> Look, this is a public forum where you're encouraged to share experiences and personal opinions on whatever topics you like. I couldn't have been more clear when I said in my follow-up review that it was completely my opinion on what was stated. I made the effort to go personally visit this hunting lease and quickly realized it wasn't the right fit for me based on the experiences mentioned. I also suggested that it may be the right fit for others, but they should go visit the place before deciding. I was sold based on my phone conversations, but wasn't based on my visit. Based on the private messages that I received, it was a 50/50 split between those that enjoyed their existing memberships and those that were getting off or had gotten off.
> 
> Hopefully someone that is considering this hunting club will find this thread and read it from start to finish. There were many useful postings here (both positive and negative) that will give them an idea of what to expect.
> 
> There's too **** many bass to catch and I'm done with this thread! :cheers:


I wouldn't sweat it at all I thought you were honest in your opinion and I thought you were clear that it was in your opinion not the right place for you. I do not know why fishingallthetime took it to heart but I saw nothing in your post that illegitimately bashed anyone. My 2 cents


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## sotexhookset

No dog in this fight but thanks for the laughs in this thread as I've not rifled a kill in years.

Gr8, get in his ***. You're 120% right in your thoughts but hail to the "president". Lol. What the hell?:texasflag


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## Gearman

Ok backwater then how many deer should 6700 acres in south texas be able to handle, with food plots like you mention?


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## Backwater1

Gearman said:


> Ok backwater then how many deer should 6700 acres in south texas be able to handle, with food plots like you mention?


 On an average rainfall year or on a 2012 year? Rainfall amounts in ETX aren't near as detrimental to the browse. Its a wetter area with a moist climate.


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## LouietheDrifter

Backwater1 said:


> East Texas terrain can easily handle that ratio. Most properties in that region have 1 hunter per 70 acres.
> 
> This one has 1 to 109.


So how does the terrain trick the nose of a Deer?


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## LouietheDrifter

LouietheDrifter said:


> 62 family memberships / 6770 acres = woods that smell like people= mostly nocturnal deer. Just saying.


for quote above


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## Backwater1

LouietheDrifter said:


> So how does the terrain trick the nose of a Deer?


What does a deer's nose have to do with anything? I've killed deer at 50 yards during duck hunts while talking loudly, shooting and eating a fresh taquito. Killed deer at 10 yards off my tailgate. People kill deer every year by the thousands on properties that have way higher hunter per acre ratios than this place has.

This was an interesting little read as well that was posted here a few weeks ago:

*Other research projects by Henke and graduate students at the highly respected Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute have punctured other beliefs long held by many Texas hunters.*

*Deer hunters have long believed it was ruinous to urinate anywhere close to their hunting area, as deer would pick up the scent and avoid coming anywhere close to the area.*
*Not true, Henke said.*

*"Actually, it seems deer are attracted by human urine," Henke said.*

*Similarly, CKWRI research debunked the belief that human hair effectively repels deer and other wildlife. Henke said researchers gathered "trash bags full" of human hair from barber shops and beauty salons and scattered it around wildlife feeders.*

*"It had no effect," Henke said. Remote sensing cameras set to monitor the sites recorded a parade of wildlife - deer, javelina, feral hogs, raccoons - sifting through the human hair to get food.*

*Various colognes sprinkled around feeders didn't result in wildlife's avoiding the sites.*

*Other research indicates wearing camouflage clothing is not as important as many hunters believe and not nearly as important as being still.*
*Researchers placed human mannequins dressed either in full camouflage or jeans and a checkered shirt in the open about 15 feet from deer feeders. Deer avoided the feeders for "a couple of days," Henke said, then ignored the mannequins no matter whether the fake human wore camo or regular clothes.*

*Other wildlife didn't even wait that long.*

*"We have pictures of raccoons climbing all over the mannequins in the open," Henke said.*

*If the mannequins were placed in the edge of a brush line, where they were somewhat obscured and their silhouettes not easily seen by deer, the deer never stopped coming to the feeders, ignoring the mannequins equally, no matter what clothes the mannequins wore.*

I will be the first to tell you that hunting pressure will change a deer pattern before anything else. But unless you have tens of millions of dollars to buy your own 6700 acre place, you are going to have to deal with it. You can pay less per member and hunt 1 guy per 70 acres or pay more and hunt 1 guy per 100 acres. Regardless, the lease still has to be paid to the landowner.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Backwater1 said:


> What does a deer's nose have to do with anything? I've killed deer at 50 yards during duck hunts while talking loudly, shooting and eating a fresh taquito. Killed deer at 10 yards off my tailgate. People kill deer every year by the thousands on properties that have way higher hunter per acre ratios than this place has.
> 
> This was an interesting little read as well that was posted here a few weeks ago:
> 
> *Other research projects by Henke and graduate students at the highly respected Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute have punctured other beliefs long held by many Texas hunters.*
> 
> *Deer hunters have long believed it was ruinous to urinate anywhere close to their hunting area, as deer would pick up the scent and avoid coming anywhere close to the area.*
> *Not true, Henke said.*
> 
> *"Actually, it seems deer are attracted by human urine," Henke said.*
> 
> *Similarly, CKWRI research debunked the belief that human hair effectively repels deer and other wildlife. Henke said researchers gathered "trash bags full" of human hair from barber shops and beauty salons and scattered it around wildlife feeders.*
> 
> *"It had no effect," Henke said. Remote sensing cameras set to monitor the sites recorded a parade of wildlife - deer, javelina, feral hogs, raccoons - sifting through the human hair to get food.*
> 
> *Various colognes sprinkled around feeders didn't result in wildlife's avoiding the sites.*
> 
> *Other research indicates wearing camouflage clothing is not as important as many hunters believe and not nearly as important as being still.*
> *Researchers placed human mannequins dressed either in full camouflage or jeans and a checkered shirt in the open about 15 feet from deer feeders. Deer avoided the feeders for "a couple of days," Henke said, then ignored the mannequins no matter whether the fake human wore camo or regular clothes.*
> 
> *Other wildlife didn't even wait that long.*
> 
> *"We have pictures of raccoons climbing all over the mannequins in the open," Henke said.*
> 
> *If the mannequins were placed in the edge of a brush line, where they were somewhat obscured and their silhouettes not easily seen by deer, the deer never stopped coming to the feeders, ignoring the mannequins equally, no matter what clothes the mannequins wore.*
> 
> I will be the first to tell you that hunting pressure will change a deer pattern before anything else. But unless you have tens of millions of dollars to buy your own 6700 acre place, you are going to have to deal with it. You can pay less per member and hunt 1 guy per 70 acres or pay more and hunt 1 guy per 100 acres. Regardless, the lease still has to be paid to the landowner.


Keep in mind that this lease has 62 memberships, not hunters. There are also spouses and children hunting off these memberships which significantly increases the amount of people in the woods and drives down the ratio of hunters per acre.

I'm not sure where you are getting your average hunters per acre from, but this lease is right inline or denser than other leases in that area that I've looked at. I was also on a 3,500 acre lease in Zavalla for 13 years that is $1,100 per membership and 110 acre average per membership. Bear Creek that is 3 miles down the road is 10,400 acres and 85 members is $1,100 per year. That's 122 acres per membership.

Regarding the article that you posted above, I've actually witnessed bucks clean a scrape after a human relieved themselves in it. I don't think they know the difference in kinds of urine. They are funny animals though. One day they'll come cruising up from downwind without a bother in the world. Other days they'll catch one slight whiff of you and they blow out of there quicker than you can blink. With this being said, human scent and wind direction plays THE most important part of hunting deer in East Texas from what I've personally experienced. Sure, there's always exceptions to everything, but my success rate went up greatly when I started hunting the wind direction vs just always trumping to the same stand location.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## RB II

Agree, whitetails are very strange animals. I recently watched the largest white tail I have ever seen free range (Alive or dead. Only one or maybe two pics I have ever seen here on 2cool came close) in the middle of about 15k acres of property (so he was truly wild) at 400 yds straight downwind. Watched him for about 15 minutes. He never even acted like he smelled me or saw/smelled/heard my big white Ford diesel truck.


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## Backwater1

Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> Keep in mind that this lease has 62 memberships, not hunters. There are also spouses and children hunting off these memberships which significantly increases the amount of people in the woods and drives down the ratio of hunters per acre.
> 
> I'm not sure where you are getting your average hunters per acre from, but this lease is right inline or denser than other leases in that area that I've looked at. I was also on a 3,500 acre lease in Zavalla for 13 years that is $1,100 per membership and 110 acre average per membership. Bear Creek that is 3 miles down the road is 10,400 acres and 85 members is $1,100 per year. That's 122 acres per membership.
> 
> Regarding the article that you posted above, I've actually witnessed bucks clean a scrape after a human relieved themselves in it. I don't think they know the difference in kinds of urine. They are funny animals though. One day they'll come cruising up from downwind without a bother in the world. Other days they'll catch one slight whiff of you and they blow out of there quicker than you can blink. With this being said, human scent and wind direction plays THE most important part of hunting deer in East Texas from what I've personally experienced. Sure, there's always exceptions to everything, but my success rate went up greatly when I started hunting the wind direction vs just always trumping to the same stand location.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 But remember, you are looking at managed properties, which are not the norm in ETX. I was referring to those average ratios with the normal ETX timber operation.

Those "average" places are also family memberships, so they have the spouses and kids too that are not included in the ratio, so it should wash out.

Deer are definitely funny. I've walked right up to them staring at me, killed my biggest buck off my tailgate in mid conversation with someone, even watched our MLD records plummet by 80+ percent just because we started taking a Ranger around the property instead of a truck. 4500 acres and they suddenly disappeared with something that simple.

I was in Oklahoma duck hunting a slough last month with 2 other guys, shooting every 15 minutes, talking loudly, sloshing around in the water, wailing on calls and watched 3 does and 4 yearlings walk 20 yards downwind from us and drink out of the slough and stare right at us.

I can research and learn every day for the rest of my life and still not be able to figure them out lol


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## Gearman

Kinda hard to say this year I am going to have this many deer because it rained and next year if it doesn't rain I will have a lot less. Part of a management plan is to plan for the good and bad years. So lets say a South Texas Ranch has tanks that provide water in drought or non drought years. What kind of numbers would your target be for a 6700 acre ranch down south? Do you think it can handle 500+ like you say east texas can?


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## Backwater1

Gearman said:


> Kinda hard to say this year I am going to have this many deer because it rained and next year if it doesn't rain I will have a lot less. Part of a management plan is to plan for the good and bad years. So lets say a South Texas Ranch has tanks that provide water in drought or non drought years. What kind of numbers would your target be for a 6700 acre ranch down south? Do you think it can handle 500+ like you say east texas can?


It is not kinda hard to say it at all. It has nothing to do with how many deer you have, it has to do with how many deer the property can handle. In a high fence controlled environment, you can handle 1 deer for 5 acres and even less since you can control the food and the movement in/out of the property.

If you don't have any food/water one year, then your 6700 acre place may have actually have zero deer (doubtful, but a possibility) especially if neighboring properties do have the resources.

Tanks may help with drinking water, but its not going to help your browse growth. Only irrigation and rainfall can help you there.

Don't hold me concretely to this number because my experience is limited, but I would think target on a 6700 acre place should be 350-450, dependent on what part of the region, how much water and no addition of feeders/protein.

Again, that is not how many deer are there, but how many the property can handle without supplemental feeding. How many do you think it can handle?


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## Snap Draggin

Backwater1 said:


> I will be the first to tell you that hunting pressure will change a deer pattern before anything else. But unless you have tens of millions of dollars to buy your own 6700 acre place, you are going to have to deal with it. You can pay less per member and hunt 1 guy per 70 acres or pay more and hunt 1 guy per 100 acres. Regardless, the lease still has to be paid to the landowner.


I've been following this thread. Finally decided to post something. I'm on a lease in East Texas that isn't very far from that 3 Point Club. The lease has been managed for over fifteen years. We have a lot of good bucks running around on it. I would say the average age of bucks killed is 4 1/2. Does are close to that as well. We have 9,200 acres and only 41 members. Each paying member can kill what TP&WD allows each season. There are restrictions for one buck which is considered your trophy. Family is welcome, but they shoot off the member's allowed harvest. We have enough electric and city water hookups for every member. There is also a big building that has picnic tables, a stove, two freezers, a refrigerator/freezer, and two full bathrooms. We pay $1,400/member. That includes electricity and water for a full year on the entire camp site. We don't pay a red cent more ever.

Each member is allowed three stands. One of which is considered open. That means anyone who wants to hunt it must be allowed to unless the member is planning on hunting it.

I'm not going to speculate on what they are doing over there. I'm just telling you what we have. You can form your own opinions.


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## Gearman

Well I know for a fact that on a 1000 acre place near Laredo we had more then 100 deer on 1000 Acres, It is high fenced with 3 ponds for water and no protein in the field for 3 years or very very little and the deer were crazy big and healthy. In fact during the drought the deer seemed to always put on great horns as I think it would push them to eat stuff that might not taste great but had tons of nutrients for them. Even if this place is a freak and lets say to be safe you could handle 75 percent of that then you are talking aprox 500 deer for 6770 acres. Maybe that number is off heck I don't know but I bet it is close. I guess I just see it being hard to have a trophy lease with 62 memberships as that is a lot of hunting pressure. Wouldn't you think you would have better luck having say 25 and raise the price some and then you have a smaller pool of people that will make a mistake trying to age a deer as the age between 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 is pretty hard to as compared to aging a deer between 3 1/2 and 5 1/2. Not trying to argue with you backwater just guess I don't get the east texas hunting thing. I do also hunt central texas so I do understand the deer just not the lease mentality. I do think it has more to do with the Timber companies wanting the deer numbers low to reduce loss for them as stated in the article posted earlier. It is going to be hard if they require harvest records from them and they only shot 3-5 bucks that were 5 1/2.


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## Backwater1

Gearman said:


> Well I know for a fact that on a 1000 acre place near Laredo we had more then 100 deer on 1000 Acres, It is high fenced with 3 ponds for water and no protein in the field for 3 years or very very little and the deer were crazy big and healthy. In fact during the drought the deer seemed to always put on great horns as I think it would push them to eat stuff that might not taste great but had tons of nutrients for them. Even if this place is a freak and lets say to be safe you could handle 75 percent of that then you are talking aprox 500 deer for 6770 acres. Maybe that number is off heck I don't know but I bet it is close. I guess I just see it being hard to have a trophy lease with 62 memberships as that is a lot of hunting pressure. Wouldn't you think you would have better luck having say 25 and raise the price some and then you have a smaller pool of people that will make a mistake trying to age a deer as the age between 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 is pretty hard to as compared to aging a deer between 3 1/2 and 5 1/2. Not trying to argue with you backwater just guess I don't get the east texas hunting thing. I do also hunt central texas so I do understand the deer just not the lease mentality. I do think it has more to do with the Timber companies wanting the deer numbers low to reduce loss for them as stated in the article posted earlier. It is going to be hard if they require harvest records from them and they only shot 3-5 bucks that were 5 1/2.


High fence places can hold more deer, usually because of habitat management. Without supplemental feed, your deer could have wanted to get out, but they couldn't. Comparing high fence to low fence is never going to work.

ETX is a special place. For one, you can't physically see as far, thus making it harder to even see a deer as well as making it harder to do population estimations even. Everything is based off of formulas during deer count surveys on how far you can see in each direction per calculated stop. You can't fly it in a helicopter. Highracks are ineffective.

There are so many variables in ETX that's its tough. I can tell you this though, I hunt on a ETX place that is about 4000 acres. No fences, no food plots, no feeders, no protein, no hunting pressure. Some places you can see over 1000 yards and its not because of a pipeline or road. I have sat and had afternoons where I have documented 50, 60 and 70 deer on MLD survey sheets in less than an hour. Not your typical ETX property. Those deer are there for 1, because I can actually see them and 2, because there is no hunting pressure.

Of course you would have better results if the membership was dropped to 25. That would be true anywhere in the country, but you just have to find the people willing to pay. There aren't a lot of people willing to shell out 3000 bucks to hunt ETX, but on the places that do, they are having exceptional results. This place is a good example : http://www.texashuntfish.com/app/view/Hunt/4266/Brushy-Creek


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## Backwater1

Snap Draggin said:


> I've been following this thread. Finally decided to post something. I'm on a lease in East Texas that isn't very far from that 3 Point Club. The lease has been managed for over fifteen years. We have a lot of good bucks running around on it. I would say the average age of bucks killed is 4 1/2. Does are close to that as well. We have 9,200 acres and only 41 members. Each paying member can kill what TP&WD allows each season. There are restrictions for one buck which is considered your trophy. Family is welcome, but they shoot off the member's allowed harvest. We have enough electric and city water hookups for every member. There is also a big building that has picnic tables, a stove, two freezers, a refrigerator/freezer, and two full bathrooms. We pay $1,400/member. That includes electricity and water for a full year on the entire camp site. We don't pay a red cent more ever.
> 
> Each member is allowed three stands. One of which is considered open. That means anyone who wants to hunt it must be allowed to unless the member is planning on hunting it.
> 
> I'm not going to speculate on what they are doing over there. I'm just telling you what we have. You can form your own opinions.


 Do not ever get off that place. Ever. Never Ever.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Snap Draggin said:


> I've been following this thread. Finally decided to post something. I'm on a lease in East Texas that isn't very far from that 3 Point Club. The lease has been managed for over fifteen years. We have a lot of good bucks running around on it. I would say the average age of bucks killed is 4 1/2. Does are close to that as well. We have 9,200 acres and only 41 members. Each paying member can kill what TP&WD allows each season. There are restrictions for one buck which is considered your trophy. Family is welcome, but they shoot off the member's allowed harvest. We have enough electric and city water hookups for every member. There is also a big building that has picnic tables, a stove, two freezers, a refrigerator/freezer, and two full bathrooms. We pay $1,400/member. That includes electricity and water for a full year on the entire camp site. We don't pay a red cent more ever.
> 
> Each member is allowed three stands. One of which is considered open. That means anyone who wants to hunt it must be allowed to unless the member is planning on hunting it.
> 
> I'm not going to speculate on what they are doing over there. I'm just telling you what we have. You can form your own opinions.


That sounds like you guys have a great setup. Thank you for sharing


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## Snap Draggin

Backwater1 said:


> Do not ever get off that place. Ever. Never Ever.





Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> That sounds slike you guys have a great setup. Thank you for sharing


Just so you guys will know. Not everyone kills a buck every year. We average 15-20 bucks killed per season. That includes culls. Everyone is real good about passing young deer. We do have an occasional slip up. A lot of the monsters are only seen on the cameras. And the background is black way more often than not. The photos show what I'm talking about. After all it is East Texas. But it's less than two hours from the house, and loaded with deer, turkeys and hogs.


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## Gearman

All true about hunting and the best thing about living in Texas is we can do what we want to do. I think it is safe to say though that the property in question is really more about making money instead of making big deer. Me myself would not feel safe hunting on property where there are so many rifles that could be pointing my way.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Snap Draggin said:


> Just so you guys will know. Not everyone kills a buck every year. We average 15-20 bucks killed per season. That includes culls. Everyone is real good about passing young deer. We do have an occasional slip up. A lot of the monsters are only seen on the cameras. And the background is black way more often than not. The photos show what I'm talking about. After all it is East Texas. But it's less than two hours from the house, and loaded with deer, turkeys and hogs.


Great looking bucks!

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## BretE

A deer lease with 62 members??????......that's gotta be fun to deal with...


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## LouietheDrifter

Backwater1 said:


> What does a deer's nose have to do with anything?
> 
> wow!


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## Cherokee Hunter

*3 point hunting*

3-Point Hunting is an awesome lease, with awesome people. My husband and I were the 5th members to sign on & have been on the lease since the beginning. Because it is an MLD 3 Lease, the season starts earlier than a regular lease and goes longer. We believe that letting the younger bucks walk until they are older so they can continue to breed, is the way to go for those who are looking for that â€œTrophy Buckâ€. We have serious hunters here, that voted together to raise the age. If you hunt strictly for the meat there are plenty of does and culls. Among other benefits, we have â€œaging classesâ€, that are very informative. The game biologist has the last say in aging any buck that is in question and keeps the buck to doe ratio in check. A true hunter will understand the benefits of an MLD 3 lease.
Having said that, when a grown man (and his wife) goes onto a website and tries to degrade and destroy the reputation of a lease and those that run it, you have got to ask yourself, why the sour grapes? Please know that the person who is posting hateful remarks on this page was caught going to other memberâ€™s private stands and downloading their game cams without permission. One can only imagine what his intent was. He was kicked off the lease. People who do not respect other memberâ€™s personal property are not welcome. He is now out for revenge. None of his comments have any validity. 
Bailey and Laura put many hours of their time working and trying to make our lease a wonderful experience for all our members. The money they collect goes toward paying the timber company for the lease and for way more than just utilities. They have built 4 cabins for hunters to rent, who canâ€™t afford to buy a trailer/camper right away. They have put in a restroom, complete with shower for those who have small campers and tents without those amenities. There was no electricity when we first signed up for the lease. They put in the electricity. The running water. They have bought picnic tables, etc. They have an end of season party every year in which they buy T-Shirts and hats for everyone. They buy gifts for the winners of various contest. I could go on and on. 
As far as the comment that the long time members avoid Bailey and Laura at all cost. Are you serious? Long time members are long time members because we love the lease and appreciate everything these two people sacrifice for our benefit. Nobody is getting rich here. Donâ€™t you ever get tired of being a victim and having an entitlement mentality?


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## wet dreams

How far is the required distance the stands need to be apart on this place and BTW I AM a ETex guy


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## Gearman

I am not trying to trash the hunting club , but if you are going to have 62 memberships on that size piece of property call it what it is a deer lease and follow TP&W rules and have fun. Figure out what the cost is going to be each year for everyone with all utilities and that's what it costs to join. No fines that could be handed out wrong since I promise you the biologist is not out there everyday to age the deer. When you start to add all these extra little costs it sounds like you are trying to sell a car. I am not sure I have ever heard of a deer lease that rents cabins to their hunters by the weekend but Maybe I am wrong.


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## Rack Ranch

Welcome to all the new members this thread has brought to 2cool. I hope you become a regular part of the hunting board...


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## Backwater1

Gearman said:


> I am not trying to trash the hunting club , but if you are going to have 62 memberships on that size piece of property call it what it is a deer lease and follow TP&W rules and have fun. Figure out what the cost is going to be each year for everyone with all utilities and that's what it costs to join. No fines that could be handed out wrong since I promise you the biologist is not out there everyday to age the deer. When you start to add all these extra little costs it sounds like you are trying to sell a car. I am not sure I have ever heard of a deer lease that rents cabins to their hunters by the weekend but Maybe I am wrong.


 Does the timber company not force their leases to provide treasurer records?

I thought the last one I was on had to turn over financial records to show where monies were spent. Everything was itemized from club food plots to gate repairs and POSTED sign purchases. Maybe it was just that specific timber company's requirements, but I figured most would be running a similar program.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Cherokee Hunter said:


> 3-Point Hunting is an awesome lease, with awesome people. My husband and I were the 5th members to sign on & have been on the lease since the beginning. Because it is an MLD 3 Lease, the season starts earlier than a regular lease and goes longer. We believe that letting the younger bucks walk until they are older so they can continue to breed, is the way to go for those who are looking for that â€œTrophy Buckâ€. We have serious hunters here, that voted together to raise the age. If you hunt strictly for the meat there are plenty of does and culls. Among other benefits, we have â€œaging classesâ€, that are very informative. The game biologist has the last say in aging any buck that is in question and keeps the buck to doe ratio in check. A true hunter will understand the benefits of an MLD 3 lease.
> 
> Having said that, when a grown man (and his wife) goes onto a website and tries to degrade and destroy the reputation of a lease and those that run it, you have got to ask yourself, why the sour grapes? Please know that the person who is posting hateful remarks on this page was caught going to other memberâ€™s private stands and downloading their game cams without permission. One can only imagine what his intent was. He was kicked off the lease. People who do not respect other memberâ€™s personal property are not welcome. He is now out for revenge. None of his comments have any validity.
> 
> Bailey and Laura put many hours of their time working and trying to make our lease a wonderful experience for all our members. The money they collect goes toward paying the timber company for the lease and for way more than just utilities. They have built 4 cabins for hunters to rent, who canâ€™t afford to buy a trailer/camper right away. They have put in a restroom, complete with shower for those who have small campers and tents without those amenities. There was no electricity when we first signed up for the lease. They put in the electricity. The running water. They have bought picnic tables, etc. They have an end of season party every year in which they buy T-Shirts and hats for everyone. They buy gifts for the winners of various contest. I could go on and on.
> 
> As far as the comment that the long time members avoid Bailey and Laura at all cost. Are you serious? Long time members are long time members because we love the lease and appreciate everything these two people sacrifice for our benefit. Nobody is getting rich here. Donâ€™t you ever get tired of being a victim and having an entitlement mentality?


Welcome to 2cool and thank you for sharing your experience with this lease


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## Hookem2012

I read this whole thread in one sitting.......Im tired


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

Now I feel bad calling the guy and telling him how to run his place. I don't want to do it. This is exhausting. 

I'm going fishing!


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

Rack Ranch said:


> Welcome to all the new members this thread has brought to 2cool. I hope you become a regular part of the hunting board...


I'm staying. I'm new to posting boards and will figure them out soon enough. It's great for those retired. I didn't come here because of this club. It's the busiest post that attracted me so I stuck my nose right on in. I have no desire to hunt East Texas. I can appreciate seeing the MLD program in East Texas. The guy may not be able to drop the program there. Not sure how that works in East Texas.


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

I'm okay with a nose slapping too.


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## buckwild

Man...This thread has almost become more popular than the "Nunley Chittim" thread...lol...


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

buckwild said:


> Man...This thread has almost become more popular than the "Nunley Chittim" thread...lol...


LOL,,, that thread has much nicer pics though!


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## Major29

Myself, a buddy of mine, and my cousin got on the lease for this upcoming season. Seems like a well run operation and lots of good times ahead. Looking forward to getting out there and exploring around. Bailey seems like a good guy...He does talk a lot, but seems to be his personality...I never felt like he dodged or avoided any questions we had. The rules, fees, etc. are laid out there in black and white up front. The other lease members we met when we were there to sign up and check the place out all seemed like they thoroughly enjoyed the place and nothing but good things to say. 

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## wet dreams

Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> LOL,,, that thread has much nicer pics though!


As it should....with a $14,000+ difference in yrly dues....


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## Gearman

Brett could lower his fee to 2k a gun and have 62 members but then again we wouldn't see great deer pictures, since that would not be a smart management plan. Please don't bring up anything about south texas and east texas not being the same. 62 hunters is 62 hunters, and that's a lot of bullets


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## Backwater1

Gearman said:


> Brett could lower his fee to 2k a gun and have 62 members but then again we wouldn't see great deer pictures, since that would not be a smart management plan. Please don't bring up anything about south texas and east texas not being the same. 62 hunters is 62 hunters, and that's a lot of bullets


 I guarantee you he has 62 different hunters hunting on that place every year.

His management plan wouldn't change. 7.5 year old deer is the minimum. Why would more members effect that? As long as all the members abide by the rules, then you would see the exact same pictures you see now.

A management plan has nothing to do with how many hunters you have, it has to do with how many deer and what age they are harvested. The number of hunters only comes into play when you need to be able to afford the land you want to implement the management plan on.


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## Cherokee Hunter

*I donâ€™t know, maybe it is just me, but if you have a bullet phobia maybe hunting is not for you (no disrespect intended). 3-Point members are very safety conscience or they are asked to leave. We absolutely abide by TP&W rules. We also abide by MLD 3 rules. I realize not everyone understands what a MLD 3 level lease is. Being a MLD 3, we have to meet a quota. If we only had a few hunters, we would never meet that quota. Our blinds and feeders are far enough apart to be safe. Those of us, who are bringing our kids/grandkids to our lease to teach them how to hunt, would not be on a lease that was careless about safety. I also get that a family lease with 62 members is not right for everyone. However, there are never that many people hunting at one time, there are never even that many people at the lease at one time. Some members prefer to hunt during the week, some on weekends. Not everyone is there every weekend. There are bow hunters that are never there during rifle and vise versa. I also get that some men prefer a â€œguys onlyâ€ lease over a family lease. That is their right and 3 Point is not for them. I also get that not everyone can afford to be on an MLD 3 lease. There are other leases. But why must you continue to rant and rave on someone elseâ€™s lease? Get over it. Go to a lease that suits your needs. Just sayinâ€¦..*


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## PEACE OUT

*Where is the love?*

I have been a member at 3Point going on 3 years now. It is a great place with great people. Laura & Bailey should receive medals for what they've created there AND for dealing with all the BS that goes with running a lease of this size.

It is an MLD3 lease, not a meat hunting lease. If you don't get that, move on down the road. Every good lease has rules that have to be followed. If you break the rules, deal with the punishment.

I got lucky this year and harvested a mature 10 point. I'll post a pic shortly. Looking forward to seeing what comes out this year.


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## PEACE OUT

*mature East TX buck*

:brew2:


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

You guys are doing a great job! Nice buck! Keep up the hard work. I saw this picture when I requested pictures of kills. I don't trust when ETX leases posts game camera pictures only.


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## wet dreams

wet dreams said:


> How far is the required distance the stands need to be apart on this place and BTW I AM a ETex guy


I read where they are a safe distance>>>how far would 'safe' be?? There is a club close to me that 'safe' is 300yrds apart, others are 5-600 yrds. how far is your requirement....WW


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

wet dreams said:


> As it should....with a $14,000+ difference in yrly dues....


I read the nonsense on the Chittim's threads over the $17,500 fee. I kept thinking where did all these democrats come from? If a man works hard and can afford to pay that, so what? It's their right.

You get what you pay for. South Texas you pay more for better bucks.


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## Cherokee Hunter

*I am not going to try to answer specific questions about the distance between blinds, what new membership cost, etc. There are different levels of membership. All of those questions need to be directed to Bailey and/or Laura. Those questions are answered during tours of the lease. If you are interested call Bailey and Laura to book a tour. If you are not genuinely interested, peace out!:walkingsm*


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## FishingallthetimeinmyJB

Gearman said:


> Please don't bring up anything about south texas and east texas not being the same. 62 hunters is 62 hunters, and that's a lot of bullets


Don't ever say this in public, even over a couple of beers. South Texas and East Texas are comparing apples and oranges. Coverage and terrain is basic geography to take into consideration when hunting in any state or country. Forest habitats, with hunters, are overpopulated with whitetail. How is that possible?

Using your analogy of everyone gets a day off for a hunter's holiday.

Drop 62 people at once, with 62 bullets, on a flat terrain with little coverage to hunt is suicide. 
Drop 62 people at once , with 62 bullets, in a forest to hunt and they get lost.


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

wet dreams said:


> I read where they are a safe distance>>>how far would 'safe' be?? There is a club close to me that 'safe' is 300yrds apart, others are 5-600 yrds. how far is your requirement....WW


During the tour, they didn't specify how far the stands had to be apart and I don't think there was a concrete rule. The reason that I say this is because two of the community stands (16&17?) were ~100 yards apart so that two hunters could hunt near each other (kid &parent, husband & wife, etc...). I believe he mentioned that they GPS position each stand location as well. It really didn't feel unsafe or that the stands we're too close in my opinion. Pretty much exactly like any other East TX lease that I've been on.

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## Gearman

I know the many differences between south texas and the woods and you won't catch me hunting either with that many possible people. 

62 people in flat open land means I stay home 
62 people in the woods that are lost with rifles means I stay home

See the comparison yet or should I have pictures drawn up for it?


Even if Brett had 62 people that hunted his place I am pretty sure only 12 people got to come and go when they wanted and that was on half of it I think 7500 acres. The rest of the hunts are scheduled hunts and I bet there is never more then 12 people in camp and that is for 15,000 acres. 

Not comparing the 2 because the way they are managed will produce different results. Look at the pictures if you need a reference.

Last comment on this place. It sound like it could be a fun family place were kids can get exposed to hunting at a lower cost as long as they are safe. Trying to add the minimum age taken to 5 1/2 with fines given will only cause problems on a place like this. Why not just continue to run with tp&w rules and shoot for a 3 1/2 year old target or if it isn't antler restricted then apply the 13" rule.

Now that we have seen a trophy from there I would like to see some photos of what is considered a cull buck 


One thing all the lease members are right about is if I am not going to get on then don't worry about it, I am not going to get on so I am not going to worry about it. Safe hunting and even 3 point deer need love to they aren't all culls


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Gearman said:


> I know the many differences between south texas and the woods and you won't catch me hunting either with that many possible people.
> 
> 62 people in flat open land means I stay home
> 
> 62 people in the woods that are lost with rifles means I stay home
> 
> See the comparison yet or should I have pictures drawn up for it?
> 
> Even if Brett had 62 people that hunted his place I am pretty sure only 12 people got to come and go when they wanted and that was on half of it I think 7500 acres. The rest of the hunts are scheduled hunts and I bet there is never more then 12 people in camp and that is for 15,000 acres.
> 
> Not comparing the 2 because the way they are managed will produce different results. Look at the pictures if you need a reference.
> 
> Last comment on this place. It sound like it could be a fun family place were kids can get exposed to hunting at a lower cost as long as they are safe. Trying to add the minimum age taken to 5 1/2 with fines given will only cause problems on a place like this. Why not just continue to run with tp&w rules and shoot for a 3 1/2 year old target or if it isn't antler restricted then apply the 13" rule.
> 
> Now that we have seen a trophy from there I would like to see some photos of what is considered a cull buck
> 
> One thing all the lease members are right about is if I am not going to get on then don't worry about it, I am not going to get on so I am not going to worry about it. Safe hunting and even 3 point deer need love to they aren't all culls


Hey Gearman, I see your point, but realize that there should never be hunters wandering through the woods. During hunting season, you are only permitted to go directly to your stand/feeder area and that's it. The only exception would be if someone is trailing a wounded deer. I did feel that safety was at the top of their priorities. ALL firearms had to be unloaded ~400 yards prior to entering camp and there were signs reminding you of this when nearing, even if you had a CHL.

I also have my doubts around a 5 1/2 yr age requirement when the surrounding land isn't abiding by the same restriction. It's a very ambitious goal for that area with no fence. If there was a fence, it's obvious that you could much more effectively manage an age requirement.

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## Cherokee Hunter

Thank you Gr8_Outdoorsman for your knowledge. Truth is, if anyone is going to go wandering through the woods during hunting season, we would just as soon that they go somewhere else. It is comments like this that make you realize not everyone gets it. You do! The members on our lease do. Once again it was the hunters that voted to increase the age from 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 for this coming season. We are looking toward the future and the many trophy bucks to come. I pretty sure you know the importance of taking out the culls & spikes, though not everyone seems to. It will only improve the quality of the bucks we see in the future. (I'll bet you don't need pictures)!


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## wet dreams

Since its MLD3 how does the club handle someone who has taken a 13+ buck and the club sees it will be short on the buck and doe harvest.....WW


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## Snap Draggin

FishingallthetimeinmyJB said:


> I don't trust when ETX leases posts game camera pictures only.


If you're referring to my photos, I have some of kills. They are with other members. And I am not going to post someone else's photo on here. I haven't killed anything on there except a few hogs. I've passed on some real good 3 1/2 year old bucks. One was a ten point that was probably in the mid 140's. Last season we had a few bucks killed that grossed over 150. I mainly bow hunt, and because of work, I haven't been able to hunt there except for Thanksgiving and Christmas for the last two years. I found some new spots to bow hunt that look promising. I'll be hunting them this season. Maybe I'll get lucky this year and get a shot at a mature buck. Rest assured that I will post photos if I am the one standing next to the buck.

With all that has been said, I don't agree with that many hunters on a lease. That's just me. Others obviously have differing opinions. My thoughts are the reason I joined the lease I'm on. To me it's all about what YOU want out of it. Doesn't really matter what others think. They're not paying your annual dues.


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## Cherokee Hunter

http://outdoorchannel.com/article.aspx?id=3644&articletype=article&refID=Newsletter_I318


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## Rack Ranch

WOW!!!! I go out of state buying cattle, come back five days later, and this thread is still going. Will it ever end??????????????????


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Rack Ranch said:


> WOW!!!! I go out of state buying cattle, come back five days later, and this thread is still going. Will it ever end??????????????????


You just had to bump it back to the top didn't ya?!?! LOL

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## Cherokee Hunter

*This is how our lease works. We are given a recommendation yearly on the amount of bucks & does to take. We are given permits (lamps) that match the recommendation. Culls or Spikes count against our tags, as long as a doe harvest is in line with recommendations at the time we request replacement tags. A 13â€ deer would go against our permit tags, thus the reason for the fine, to prevent this. You do not use your personal license hunting tags. *


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## wet dreams

>IF< on Dec 15 you have x amount of buck tags left.....how are they distributed??


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## Cherokee Hunter

Sorry ~ I was typing so fast I omitted a word. LOL
Culls or Spikes do not count against our tags, as long as a doe harvest is in line with recommendations at the time we request replacement tags.


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## Rack Ranch

Who decides if a buck is a cull ?



Cherokee Hunter said:


> Sorry ~ I was typing so fast I omitted a word. LOL
> Culls or Spikes do not count against our tags, as long as a doe harvest is in line with recommendations at the time we request replacement tags.


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## poco jim

Land owner I guess Rack, just like we do. Doesn't make it scientific, but that's what we do.


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## outdoorsmanjimjo

*Secret Hunting Club*

My lease in east tx is MLD3 also, Our bucks must be at least 14" wide and 4.5 yrs old, spikes and cull bucks DO NOT count against us, free deer for us, we get replacement permits for them, we have our own electric meters to each camp- run about $ 120 a yr running A/C and heat , my camp is 100 % electric and I live there 4 months out of the year, our water fee is $15 a yr, our lease hunting fee is $800.00 per family a yr and $100 per camper for camp site for the whole yr., The main camp and cleaning station fee is $ 15.00 a yr, I love this hunting club, This past season I seen 159 deer just in my area along. This past season our club has killed 4 bucks over 150 inches, sorry we never have any opening cause no body ever gets off.:texasflag


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> LOL,,,, Could it be any more obvious that fishingallthetimeinmyJB is affiliated with this hunting club?! This was exactly the cheesy kinds of things that scared me away from the lease!
> 
> He creates an account and joins 2cool on Sunday as a self-proclaimed deer management expert with no experience in East Texas timber company leases and immediately jumps into this one post feverishly defending the ways of this hunting club. He has no established credibility based on past interactions and conveniently refuses to disclose details of his thriving South Texas ranch (with an amazing lease president I must add that he admires considerably).
> 
> He is so moved by this post that he takes the initiative to call the lease president and take hand-written notes on their discussion. Does a full investigative report on nearly every negative point discussed in this thread. LOL, give me a break!!!!
> 
> Look, this is a public forum where you're encouraged to share experiences and personal opinions on whatever topics you like. I couldn't have been more clear when I said in my follow-up review that it was completely my opinion on what was stated. I made the effort to go personally visit this hunting lease and quickly realized it wasn't the right fit for me based on the experiences mentioned. I also suggested that it may be the right fit for others, but they should go visit the place before deciding. I was sold based on my phone conversations, but wasn't based on my visit. Based on the private messages that I received, it was a 50/50 split between those that enjoyed their existing memberships and those that were getting off or had gotten off.
> 
> Hopefully someone that is considering this hunting club will find this thread and read it from start to finish. There were many useful postings here (both positive and negative) that will give them an idea of what to expect.
> 
> There's too **** many bass to catch and I'm done with this thread! :cheers:


Can't help but chuckle at the fact that fishingallthetimeinmyJB deleted their profile when this thread died off. I think that it's safe to say that I called it!

:walkingsm


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## Rack Ranch

Called what? Can you tell us about it again? LOL :fishy:



Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> Can't help but chuckle at the fact that fishingallthetimeinmyJB deleted their profile when this thread died off. I think that it's safe to say that I called it!
> 
> :walkingsm


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Rack Ranch said:


> Called what? Can you tell us about it again? LOL :fishy:


LOL.... No thank you!

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## Trouthunter

> Can't help but chuckle at the fact that fishingallthetimeinmyJB deleted their profile when this thread died off. I think that it's safe to say that I called it!


A user can't delete his or her profile. 

TH


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## Gr8_Outdoorsman

Trouthunter said:


> A user can't delete his or her profile.
> 
> TH


Does that mean an admin deleted it? All of their posts are gone from this post and there's no sign of them under that user name

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## RB II

Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> Does that mean an admin deleted it? All of their posts are gone from this post and there's no sign of them under that user name
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Uhhhh, yep something like that. "It's like he never wuz"


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## hydestik

*Bait and switch ??*



Gr8_Outdoorsman said:


> Hi guys, just a brief update to my original inquiry. Initially, I was all in and ready to sign up for this lease for 2014, but after going on a tour I quickly realized that the place isn't for me. I think that the lease president has the right intentions on managing an east Texas lease for more mature deer, but I didn't get a good vibe from this operation at all. I work in a professional sales background, but the whole tour felt like a sales pitch (think those timeshare presentations). Based on the density of hunters/acre and the fact that their rates are MUCH higher than nearby leases, I really think that they are managing this timber company lease as a for-profit business. This is only my opinion and I have no proof, but it is a very strong feeling.
> 
> 1) During my initial conversations with the lease president, he explained that your first year you had to hunt the club stands only. He also stated that they were actively feeding protein and that the club stands had food plots planted. From my tour, the club stands did not have food plots and there were no protein feeders on the lease.
> 
> 2) I asked to have the rules sent to me numerous times before going on the visit, but never received a copy until the day of the tour. All discussions that we ever had, was that they required trophy bucks to be 4 1/2 yr old. This is an ambitious requirement for a no fence, East Texas timber company lease, but I was willing to give it a shot. When I was reading the rules around this, I noticed that they said all trophy bucks have to be 5 1/2 year old and the penalty for shooting a younger deer was $500 which was due immediately. I called this out and asked the president if you shoot a 150" 4 1/2 yr old ten point, would you get fined for it. He talked all around the answer, but never answered it directly (as he did for most questions asked that day). READ YOUR CONTRACT!
> 
> There were just too many inconsistencies between what was spoken and actuality. I would strongly encourage any of you that are considering this lease to go there and do a tour of the property. You may find that it is good fit for what you are looking for, but I would advise against sending a payment sight unseen like I was being pressured to do. Happy Hunting!


 The rules say 5 1/2 but you were told 4 1/2, sounds like the bait and switch tactic. It's very lofty to shoot 5 1/2 year old deer on ETX low fenced lease with 62 memberships. Something don't add up here. I'll bet it would be easy to find out what the paper company charges for this tract of land.


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## wet dreams

7-8$ per on most timber co land, a cpl companies grade it out depending on what kind of timber is left. Some places around Rayburn and Toledo is going for 10-12....


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## hydestik

If I've got a great lease , seeing good deer at a decent price there is no need to come promote it here, conversely, if I have a lease that's over hunted, overcharging, and operating with shady tactics then I can see that. My point is, the only people arguing would be the ones running the place and drawing a profit . Go figure....


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## BenjiJo0250

PEACE OUT said:


> *mature East TX buck*
> 
> :brew2:


Are you still on the 3pointsclub lease?


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## Duckchasr

BenjiJo0250 said:


> Are you still on the 3pointsclub lease?


I'm sure by now all that land has been cleared and subdivisions built.


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