# Did Jesus Die on a Stake or a Cross



## WillieT

While talking to one of my spiritual sisters last weekend the discussion turned to the question did Jesus die on a stake or a cross. We believe that he died on a stake and that a cross is really an idol. She mentioned to me that ABC had a story on the subject some time ago.

I only bring this up because of the attack that my religion has come under, as well as statements regarding The New World Translation of the bible and how it was written to support our beliefs. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The bible was written after diligent research going back to the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic text. It is also interesting to note that in the original scriptures, God's personal name, which translates to Jehovah, was used over 7,000 times. The new World Translation restored God's personal name to it's translation.

Here is a copy of the basic transcript for the TV show.

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Home> GMA
Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross
July 2, 2010
By RUSSELL GOLDMAN
Russell Goldman More from Russell Â»
via

For 2,000 years the crucifix has been a potent symbol of both Jesus Christ's death and Christianity. Now one Swedish theologian says that despite the crucifix's proliferation in art and literature, there is scant evidence in the Bible or other ancient sources to indicate that Christ was killed on a cross.

Gunnar Samuelsson, an evangelical preacher and theologian, says he spent three years combing thousands of ancient texts to research his recently completed 400-page doctoral thesis "Crucifixion in Antiquity."

What he discovered, he said, "came as a shock." While there were numerous references to "suspension devices" used for executions at the time of Christ's death, he could find no explicit references to the classic T-shaped cross.

"There is no distinct punishment called 'crucifixion,' no distinct punishment device called a 'crucifix' anywhere mentioned in any of the ancient texts including the Gospels," he told ABCNews.com.

Samuelsson devoutly believes the story of Jesus' death and resurrection, but says for generations people have misinterpreted and mistranslated the Greek word "stauros" to mean crucifix, when really the term just means a suspension device, which might have been anything such as a "pole or a tree trunk." The earliest versions of the New Testament were written in Greek.

"If you chose to just read the text and ignore the art and theology, there is quite a small amount of information about the crucifixion. Jesus, the Bible says, carried something called a stauros out to Calvary. Everyone thought it meant cross, but it does not only mean cross. We cannot say every instance of this noun, stauros refers to a cross," Samuelsson said.

Suspension devices, basically tall polls or pikes, were routinely used in the ancient world, by the Romans and their contemporaries, both as execution devices and for displaying the bodies of executed criminals and enemies as a public warning.

Part of what tipped Samuelson off to the apparent mistranslation, were routine references to things like fruits and dead animals being "crucified" in ancient texts, when translating the word as "suspended" makes more sense.

For Samuelsson, a 44-year-old pastor who is completing his research at the University of Gothenburg, his faith leads him to believe in the tradition that Jesus was suspended on a cross.

However, he says, "We don't know how those wicked people next to him on the right and on the left, were executed. Or what the devices looked like for people the day before or the day after."

"I am not saying no 'crucifixions' took place I the ancient world. But we cannot find evidence of them in the ancient texts," he added.

Given that the Romans were careful record keepers who wrote detailed and gruesome histories about their military conquests and lengthy legal treatises, it is strange that they would not have written plainly about their execution methods, he explained.

Samuelson says the idea of suspension devices would have been understood in the ancient world and by the contemporaries of Jesus.

"If you were walking around Galilee and heard Jesus say he will be suspended in days. People would have an understanding of the kind of torture involved."

While the Gospels mention Jesus' suspension, none specify a cross, according to Samuelson. Furthermore, the passion is described differently in different Gospels and has been depicted in various ways throughout history.

Home> GMA
Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross
July 2, 2010
Page 2 of 2

"In the movie the 'Passion of Christ,' Jesus carries the whole cross on his back. In some scholarly works, he just carries the cross beam. Nails are not mentioned before the passion and only mentioned in one book after he is executed," he said.

Samuelson said he never expected the international reaction his thesis has already received. He originally printed just 200 copies that he thought would be read by family and friends. He said he hoped scholars would be intrigued by his work, but has been surprised by the worldwide attention.

"I'm just another boring pastor. I think Jesus is the son of God. I read the New Testament every day. I'm filled with the Holy Spirit. I keep telling people, this does not mean we have to tear down the crosses in all the churches."

This man is NOT one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Also check out Wickipedia and what they have to say, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Jesus'_crucifixion.

They present both sides but acknowledge that the original text and the Greek word that was used, stauros, meant an upright pale or stake.


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## DA REEL DADDY

Do those links work? 

I read the article you posted and it is his opinion.

Just curious do you have a picture of this stake they used?

If Jesus had nail marks in hands, did the Romans place him hand over hand and nailed them to the stake?

I may be wrong for thinking this, but really if it was a stake or cross we all still believe he died for our sins, right?

There is no dispute over that, right?

If some of us our wrong is that damaging to our salvation?

If we are wrong I don't think displaying a cross is displaying a false Idol.

Like UT displays orange, does the shade of orange really make the UT fan and non fan?


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## tngbmt

and i've been keeping the local vampires at bay with the wrong support tool. 
just another fame seeker..

too many writings in the 1st & 2nd century referenced the two member cross & Jesus.


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## WillieT

DA REEL DADDY said:


> Do those links work?
> 
> I read the article you posted and it is his opinion.
> 
> Just curious do you have a picture of this stake they used?
> 
> If Jesus had nail marks in hands, did the Romans place him hand over hand and nailed them to the stake?
> 
> I may be wrong for thinking this, but really if it was a stake or cross we all still believe he died for our sins, right?
> 
> There is no dispute over that, right?
> 
> If some of us our wrong is that damaging to our salvation?
> 
> If we are wrong I don't think displaying a cross is displaying a false Idol.
> 
> Like UT displays orange, does the shade of orange really make the UT fan and non fan?


I did not post this to try to start an argument, just in defense of some of the accusations that have been made recently.

Yes it is one pastors opinion, someone that is not of my religion, but someone that indicates that he has studied the subject thoroughly. Wickipedia also gives several opinions, both for and against, but the original wording indicated a stake. The wickipedia link works for me.

I do not have a picture of the cross or hands. I do not think they had cameras back then. But this form of punishment was for convicted criminals and by nailing the hands, above the head, to the stake puts more pressure on the body than if they were attached to a crossmember. I think the purpose was to inflict the greatest amount of pain and discomfort.

Yes he died for our sins.

We are told we need ACCURATE knowledge.

I do think a cross is an idol, God will judge that in the end.

The purpose of posting was to point out that all the original text were interperted by men. It was through the original language that The New 'World Translation was written. It was not written to "support our views" as we stand accused. That's malarky.

Sorry, I went to UNT and I am just concerned with the shade of green that is shown.

The only other question I present, is why did most of the other bible interpretations leave out God's personal name Jehovah?


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## WillieT

tngbmt said:


> and i've been keeping the local vampires at bay with the wrong support tool.
> just another fame seeker..
> 
> too many writings in the 1st & 2nd century referenced the two member cross & Jesus.


Certainly does not mean they were correct.The day will come when it will all be sorted out.


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## DA REEL DADDY

shaggydog said:


> I did not post this to try to start an argument, just in defense of some of the accusations that have been made recently.
> 
> Yes it is one pastors opinion, someone that is not of my religion, but someone that indicates that he has studied the subject thoroughly. Wickipedia also gives several opinions, both for and against, but the original wording indicated a stake. The wickipedia link works for me.
> 
> I do not have a picture of the cross or hands. I do not think they had cameras back then. But this form of punishment was for convicted criminals and by nailing the hands, above the head, to the stake puts more pressure on the body than if they were attached to a crossmember. I think the purpose was to inflict the greatest amount of and discomfort.
> 
> Yes he died for our sins.
> 
> We are told we need ACCURATE knowledge.
> 
> I do think a cross is an idol, God will judge that in the end.
> 
> The purpose of posting was to point out that all the original text were interperted by men. It was through the original language that The New 'World Translation was written. It was not written to "support our views" as we stand accused. That's malarky.
> 
> Sorry, I went to UNT and I am just concerned with the shade of green that is shown.
> 
> The only other question I present, is why did most of the other bible interpretations leave out God's personal name Jehovah?


Shag, I promise I was not trying to argue, I was just asking for reasoning. Sorry if my question aggravated you.

As far as the pic question, I was not trying to be a wise guy, I probably should of used the word representation. We have all seen representation of Jesus on the cross and was wondering if there was on of Jesus on the stake. Peace.


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## atcfisherman

Shaggy,

You got on to a few of us for copy-pasting apostic information that you did not believe in. Yet, you are copy-pasting information that you do believe in. That's being hyporitical.

Shaggy,

I have apologized to you in a PM and publically. But now I see all you want to do is argue with others and try to prove you are right. The information you posted is bogas at best given the source.

*However, whether Christ died on a stake, tree or cross, shouldn't be our focus. Our focus should be on the salvation He provided, which is a heart issue, not a head argument issue.*

BTW, I bet I will have the support of the rest of these 2coolers when I say this was not attacking you are the JW's. The evidence is pointing back at you for starting this thread just to be argumentative and just to try to show yourself you are right.

So much for trying to be civil. *All you want to do is argue!!!!*


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## finkikin

shaggydog said:


> I did not post this to try to start an argument, just in defense of some of the accusations that have been made recently.
> 
> Yes it is one pastors opinion, someone that is not of my religion, but someone that indicates that he has studied the subject thoroughly. Wickipedia also gives several opinions, both for and against, but the original wording indicated a stake. The wickipedia link works for me.
> 
> I do not have a picture of the cross or hands. I do not think they had cameras back then. But this form of punishment was for convicted criminals and by nailing the hands, above the head, to the stake puts more pressure on the body than if they were attached to a crossmember. I think the purpose was to inflict the greatest amount of pain and discomfort.
> 
> Yes he died for our sins.
> 
> We are told we need ACCURATE knowledge.
> 
> I do think a cross is an idol, God will judge that in the end.
> 
> The purpose of posting was to point out that all the original text were interperted by men. It was through the original language that The New 'World Translation was written. It was not written to "support our views" as we stand accused. That's malarky.
> 
> Sorry, I went to UNT and I am just concerned with the shade of green that is shown.
> 
> The only other question I present, is why did most of the other bible interpretations leave out God's personal name Jehovah?


Shaggy, Who cares really what Lumber Jesus was "crucified, sacrificed, whatever you want to call it" He died for all of us for a purpose. The cross is not a idol to me. The "sacrifice" is a testimony to me and which I try to live, but I fail more than succeed.

Shaggy, please read again my PM to you.


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## Fish&Chips

*Did Jesus die on a stake or a cross?*

For me it doesn't change a thing because He still suffered and died for our sins. And He rose from the dead and is alive. And I can't deny all that Jesus has done in my life. He is still my Lord & Savior. He is still the King of Kings. He is still Jesus Christ.


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## The Last Mango

I've always believed the cross, no reason to change now. All I know is that I fall short of His expectations of me everyday, but I'm trying.


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## Fish&Chips

The Last Mango said:


> I've always believed the cross, no reason to change now. All I know is that I fall short of His expectations of me everyday, but I'm trying.


Amen TLM!


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## jimk

Simply, I believe Yeshua died for all of our sins.


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## WillieT

atcfisherman said:


> Shaggy,
> 
> You got on to a few of us for copy-pasting apostic information that you did not believe in. Yet, you are copy-pasting information that you do believe in. That's being hyporitical.
> 
> Shaggy,
> 
> I have apologized to you in a PM and publically. But now I see all you want to do is argue with others and try to prove you are right. The information you posted is bogas at best given the source.
> 
> *However, whether Christ died on a stake, tree or cross, shouldn't be our focus. Our focus should be on the salvation He provided, which is a heart issue, not a head argument issue.*
> 
> BTW, I bet I will have the support of the rest of these 2coolers when I say this was not attacking you are the JW's. The evidence is pointing back at you for starting this thread just to be argumentative and just to try to show yourself you are right.
> 
> So much for trying to be civil. *All you want to do is argue!!!!*


If I offended you are anyone else I certainly apologize. The thread was started because there had been questions raised about the bible we use The New World Translation, and that it was created to support our beliefs, and not taken from the original script. In fact I am pretty sure it is you that made that statement. I wanted to quote sources, not witness sources but neutral sources, that indicated that was not the case.

I did not and will not search out websites that attack any religion, be it the Methodists, Baptist, Catholic, Church of Christ, or any others. I do not do a lot of copy and pasting, but I thought it was a good middle ground view.

I did not criticize nor attack anyone nor any religion, and I will not do that. I will continue to address questions that have been raised about my beliefs. I guess if you think ABC news and wickipedia are bogus, that is us to you. I think most are familiar with those sources and probably do not view them as bogus. Wickipedia addressed both sides of the issue. The point I was trying to make was that the original wording indicated a stake. Again, I really do not think I did anything argumentative. If I did I am sorry.

One question that has not been addressed is the fact that Jehovah's name has all but been removed from most translations of the bible, when the original text cited that name more that 7,000 times. In changing the name to Lord or other indicators, it has really caused confusion in the interpretation of some scriptures.

To all that were offended, I apologize.

Just one more thing, Jehovah's Witnesses used other translations of the bible until 1961, when The New World Translation was printed. Our doctrines have not changed.


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## WillieT

DA REEL DADDY said:


> Shag, I promise I was not trying to argue, I was just asking for reasoning. Sorry if my question aggravated you.
> 
> As far as the pic question, I was not trying to be a wise guy, I probably should of used the word representation. We have all seen representation of Jesus on the cross and was wondering if there was on of Jesus on the stake. Peace.


D R D I did not take it that you were being a wise guy. You are respectful, even though we believe differently. I was not real sure how to respond, because I did not fully understand the question. I should not have responded as I did.

Yes, we have seen the representations of Jesus nailed to a stake and that would show what we think it must have been. If you look at that depiction it, at least to me, is easy to see how much more pressure and pain it would put on the body, than being suspended from a cross. That was the intention of the executions in that day and time.


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## tngbmt

shaggydog said:


> Certainly does not mean they were correct.The day will come when it will all be sorted out.


i've stop asking for the opportunity to feel the wounds on His hand or put my finger into His side long ago. the 'may mean this' and 'could be that' translation is dilution at best to the weak in faith. i love the reading material this forum provides but please enjoy these as commentaries .. not questions to be determined of the faithful.

translations & interpretations of scripture has the the tower of babel effect. it humbles us because we immediately recognize our limit and it puts a check on our ego when we read passages that almost sound like it was written for us.

every time i read something here, i get flashbacks. this time it's Baruch 3:15-37


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## Fish&Chips

tngbmt said:


> every time i read something here, i get flashbacks. this time it's Baruch 3:15-37


I had to look that one up (Google).
Interesting read.


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## DA REEL DADDY

Shag, I did google it and looks RUTHLESS. Thanks.



shaggydog said:


> D R D I did not take it that you were being a wise guy. You are respectful, even though we believe differently. I was not real sure how to respond, because I did not fully understand the question. I should not have responded as I did.
> 
> Yes, we have seen the representations of Jesus nailed to a stake and that would show what we think it must have been. If you look at that depiction it, at least to me, is easy to see how much more pressure and pain it would put on the body, than being suspended from a cross. That was the intention of the executions in that day and time.


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## WillieT

tngbmt said:


> i've stop asking for the opportunity to feel the wounds on His hand or put my finger into His side long ago. the 'may mean this' and 'could be that' translation is dilution at best to the weak in faith. i love the reading material this forum provides but please enjoy these as commentaries .. not questions to be determined of the faithful.
> 
> translations & interpretations of scripture has the the tower of babel effect. it humbles us because we immediately recognize our limit and it puts a check on our ego when we read passages that almost sound like it was written for us.
> 
> every time i read something here, i get flashbacks. this time it's Baruch 3:15-37


Are you speaking of those "concealed texts"?


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## fishingcacher

Very interesting question and glad you brought it up.

Here you go: Looks like the cross is possible but not conclusive.

http://www.gotquestions.org/cross-pole-stake.html


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## Fish&Chips

fishingcacher said:


> Very interesting question and glad you brought it up.
> 
> Here you go: Looks like the cross is possible but not conclusive.
> 
> http://www.gotquestions.org/cross-pole-stake.html


Thanks for posting that fishingcacher. Has some really good info:

_"Biblically, though, an airtight case cannot be made for either a cross or a pole/stake. The Romans were not picky in regards to how they would crucify people. The Romans used crosses, poles, stakes, upside-down crosses, x-shaped crosses, walls, roofs, etc. Jesus could have been crucified on any of these objects and it would not have affected the perfection or sufficiency of His sacrifice."

_
​


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## jdipper1

Jesus said "pick up your *cross* and follow me". Not a stick, stake wall or anything else.

GOD Bless,
John


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## atcfisherman

jdipper1 said:


> Jesus said "pick up your *cross* and follow me". Not a stick, stake wall or anything else.
> 
> GOD Bless,
> John


Excellent point!!!!!

In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## Seeker

I have never seen any art work with Jesus on a stake. I wasn't going to say it.. and I wanted to see if anyone else was thinking what I was thinking.. but JDIPPER did. I'm with JD. There really is nothing out there to make be believe otherwise.. not that it makes a hill-o-beans..

Hold on..hold on.. SMACK!!

sorry, the horse just moved.. maybe that will do it..:biggrin:


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## fishingcacher

Like any other language you have to understand the original language.

http://www.yaim.org/web/literature/other-topics/163-didyahshuadieonacross.html


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## atcfisherman

fishingcacher said:


> Like any other language you have to understand the original language.
> 
> http://www.yaim.org/web/literature/other-topics/163-didyahshuadieonacross.html


It is very interesting what anyone can find on the Internet and sadly most believe everything they read there. BTW, understanding the original language helps, but taking one source is a grave error. Original language scholars in the world will tell you not to rely on one source.

Also, what many are failing to see is the modern day Pharisees who stress unimportant things like whether Jesus died on a cross, stake or tree or we must not do certain things, etc, etc. God looks at the heart, not the outward actions. He knows that if the heart of man is made right with Him, which is only through Jesus Christ, that then mans actions will like up. But when man focuses on rules, mans heart is in the wrong place.

In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## WillieT

jdipper1 said:


> Jesus said "pick up your *cross* and follow me". Not a stick, stake wall or anything else.
> 
> GOD Bless,
> John


Actually mine does say torture stake, which not only describes the object used, but gives a much clearer picture of what Jesus was describing. Please research the subject. You will be surprised what you find.


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## WillieT

https://www.google.com/search?q=jesu...w=1282&bih=624


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## atcfisherman

Shaggy,

I can't speak for others, but I have researched it and even though it doesn't specifically say, the cross is more of what the original manuscripts suggest rather than a stake. But I only looked at known scholars and not news cast or anything else. As far as your bible saying a stake, remember your bible was compiled in 1961 by JW's and they made sure it aligned with their beliefs. 

To be hung up on what Jesus died on is amazing to me. Back in Jesus day the Pharisees did the same thing. They were more worried about the law and following this or that command or looking spiritual in public. Yet their hearts were not in the right place. 

You can argue that the cross is an idol and if you believe that, then by all means, abstain form it. But others like myself do not see it as an idol but rather it represents what Christ did for us. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## tngbmt

shaggydog said:


> Actually mine does say torture stake, which not only describes the object used, but gives a much clearer picture of what Jesus was describing. Please research the subject. You will be surprised what you find.


lol S/D, .. a clearer picture? trying give credence to the argument by interjecting opinionated conclusion as evidence.

you've got me interested in reading up Tertullian writings (160-225 AD)
make note on chpt XXII ..ad nationes


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## WillieT

tngbmt said:


> lol S/D, .. a clearer picture? trying give credence to the argument by interjecting opinionated conclusion as evidence.
> 
> you've got me interested in reading up Tertullian writings (160-225 AD)
> make note on chpt XXII ..ad nationes


When Jesus stated pick up your torture stake, he was indicating how hard it would be to follow in his footsteps as one of his disciples. To me, and yes it is just my opinion, that the words torture stake paint a clearer picture of the idea that Jesus was trying to convey, than saying pick up your cross.

The original wording still indicates a simple stake.


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## atcfisherman

The original wording also means a cross. Shaggy, why are you so hung up whether it was a stake, cross or tree? 

Again,

1. If you believe it was a stake, then believe it. 
2. The original manuscripts could indicate a cross, stake or tree, thus on one can prove any without singling out what they want to believe in. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## tngbmt

shaggydog said:


> When Jesus stated pick up your torture stake, he was indicating how hard it would be to follow in his footsteps as one of his disciples. To me, and yes it is just my opinion, that the words torture stake paint a clearer picture of the idea that Jesus was trying to convey, than saying pick up your cross.
> 
> The original wording still indicates a simple stake.


from Tertullian noted


> Every piece of timber which is fixed in the ground in an erect position is a part of a cross, and indeed the greater portion of its mass. But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam, of course, and its projecting seat. Now you have the less to excuse you, for you dedicate to religion only a mutilated imperfect piece of wood, while others consecrate to the sacred purpose a complete structure. The truth, however, after all is, that your religion is all cross, as I shall show. You are indeed unaware that your gods in their origin have proceeded from this hated cross.


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## HobieYaker

atcfisherman said:


> The original wording also means a cross. Shaggy, why are you so hung up whether it was a stake, cross or tree?
> 
> Again,
> 
> 1. If you believe it was a stake, then believe it.
> 2. The original manuscripts could indicate a cross, stake or tree, thus on one can prove any without singling out what they want to believe in.
> 
> In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


I just wanted to agree with atcfisherman. It's unfortunate that all too many times JWs have gotten stuck on this word, "_stauros_". Too bad the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses or Watchtower Track Society didn't believe that. Watch link and tell me what you see that he believed in. 



 ...............Remember,it was JESUS that died for your sins if you would just repent towards God, and believe (accept), or better yet place you trust (faith) in JESUS ALONE!! In love, HobieYaker


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## TrueblueTexican

*Read John 19*

John refers to a cross, in the Roman time Christ was crucified in, Golgotha the hill of skulls, was a place of Roman display for criminals, with permanent stakes(known as stipes) present on the hill top - most often used for the condemned from the Roman Courts in Jerusalem, (Jewish courts did not use this method) The walk from Pilates court to the Hill Of Skulls was ~ 1/4 mile. Roman criminals arms were tied to a heavy wooden beam stretching across the back to tips of the hands, known as the patibulum. Its use was to keep criminals from attempting escape, while hecklers along the route threw stones. Remember this punishment was used for CRIMINALS just as hated in antiquity as they are today - Jesus according to the gospel of Matthew didn't carry his cross.

Romans were meticulous in record keeping, yet Jesus account of method of execution is not written for posterity.

Sometimes Roman execution methods for stakes were for them to be driven from the groin upward, as in a stake, but never were complete one piece wooden crosses used.

We have enough written evidence that Jesus was marched to Golgotha with the patibulum and Simon of Cyrene (Matthew 27 gives a good account) compelled to carry it.

Arriving at Golgotha hilltop, Jesus was given vinegar to drink, likely laid onto the cross beam while nails were driven at angles from his palms thru his carpal area to between his wrist bones (Romans knew how to inflict maximum pain), thence pulled with a rope from the top of the stipes into position till the patibulum and stipes were locked in position. At that point Jesus feet were dangling about five feet off the ground, then the legs were held tight, knees bent and his feet were tied to the stipes (Remember Romans were making a spectacle, bringing maximum pain, and trying to subdue a populace that did not want to be conquered) Romans had several methods of Crucifixion, this was one employed during that period.

No one actually knows, but I will believe Johns account - I don't think it was Constantine's cross nor the Universally deceived churches cross, nor an idol to be worn - why on earth would you want to wear such a GASTLY representation of torture? Lucifer must smile each time he see's one - do any of you possibly logically believe ANY of Jesus disciples then fashioned that hated ROMAN SYMBOL of Torture and WORE one around their neck?

Don't think Lucifers legions will cringe from a cross either, more likely they cheer - however they do know that God has judged them and tremble.

Spiritual darkness comes from ICONS that become *objects* of spiritual reverence bordering on becoming de facto idols.

Jesus died, according to John on a cross, was placed in a carved rock sepulchre, guarded to prevent the faithful from moving the body, and three days later emerged from it. Jesus conquered death when his body was re-animated, he took the POWER of death away from Lucifer, and ended it for those who believe in him. He did not descend to hell to conquer Lucifer because he was already defeated and banished by God long ago.

Jesus promise of life eternal, physically conquering the grave and gifted HIMSELF, God in the Flesh, as a sacrificial payment for our broken sinful ways.

Didymus(called Thomas) doubted Jesus resurrections and Jesus gave this evidence of the cross -4 Now Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, â€œWe have seen the Lord!â€

Didymus replied, â€œUnless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.â€

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, â€œPeace be with you!â€ 27 Then he said to Thomas, â€œPut your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.â€

28 Thomas said to him, â€œMy Lord and my God!â€

No where can I find feet mentioned as nailed - even from Jesus himself -

Nails in hands and side ripped open by a spear -

Keep looking for evidence - long before Jesus was condemned by the Jewish courts and execution carried out by Roman courts - Jesus said to the twelve - Take up your CROSS and follow me --

Implying to me, Jesus was talking about some heavy spiritual lifting (referencing a common heavy item of that period) each would have to do -- as well as his own sacrifice to come -

In Jesus name


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## Fish&Chips

HobieYaker said:


> I just wanted to agree with atcfisherman. It's unfortunate that all too many times JWs have gotten stuck on this word, "_stauros_". Too bad the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses or Watchtower Track Society didn't believe that. Watch link and tell me what you see that he believed in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...............Remember,it was JESUS that died for your sins if you would just repent towards God, and believe (accept), or better yet place you trust (faith) in JESUS ALONE!! In love, HobieYaker


Very well said HobieYaker. It's all about Jesus.

After watching that video it's clear that he believed it was a cross. It is also very clear that he believed in the Holy Bible and not some new World Translation. Green to you brother and may God bless you.


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## Fish&Chips

Amen TrueblueTexican.


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## fishingcacher

atcfisherman said:


> The original wording also means a cross. Shaggy, why are you so hung up whether it was a stake, cross or tree?
> 
> Again,
> 
> 1. If you believe it was a stake, then believe it.
> 2. The original manuscripts could indicate a cross, stake or tree, thus on one can prove any without singling out what they want to believe in.
> 
> In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


My whole point is how one should approach the study of the scriptures and to not assume that the translation you are reading is always correct. Given that I would not obsess with get every detail but to understand the entire bible as a whole.


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## TrueblueTexican

*This was probably disturbing to the Sanhedrin*

2 And the graves were opened; and *many bodies* of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after Jesus resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The grave was defeated, it could not contain the Saints bodies, I wonder how long they hung around before Jesus took them with him?

Bodies slept - Spirits were with God at death.


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## fishingcacher

TrueblueTexican said:


> 2 And the graves were opened; and *many bodies* of the saints which slept arose,
> 
> 53 And came out of the graves after Jesus resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
> 
> The grave was defeated, it could not contain the Saints bodies, I wonder how long they hung around before Jesus took them with him?
> 
> Bodies slept - Spirits were with God at death.


Definitely not an expert on this one. My understanding was the people were raised from the dead like Lazarus and went on to die a second time.


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## finkikin

Cross, Stake, Board, 2x4, 2x6, my log in my religion is bigger, Whatever!!! who cares! Jesus was sacrificed for all of us. Agree or not!?? His sacrifice is why we have eternal life whether it be a 2x4 pcs of lumber for my sins.


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## atcfisherman

finkikin said:


> Cross, Stake, Board, 2x4, 2x6, my log in my religion is bigger, Whatever!!! who cares! Jesus was sacrificed for all of us. Agree or not!?? His sacrifice is why we have eternal life whether it be a 2x4 pcs of lumber for my sins.


No pun intended but you hit the nail on the head. I've been saying all along who cares. The real focus should be on the salvation he provided us. He saved us from hell and we should be grateful, not debating what mechanism was used for his crucifixion.

In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## TrueblueTexican

*Christs Sacrifice*



finkikin said:


> Cross, Stake, Board, 2x4, 2x6, my log in my religion is bigger, Whatever!!! who cares! Jesus was sacrificed for all of us. Agree or not!?? His sacrifice is why we have eternal life whether it be a 2x4 pcs of lumber for my sins.


IS whats important for mankind -

YET some would ignore written history and BASE the whole HUMAN religon/ philosophy on bits and pieces that are cherry picked to beat other seeking lost people about the head with - all without UNDERSTANDING that the Bible was an "interpretive" work, with many errors in translation from Hebrew, Latin, to the Good Kings English.

The five books of the Torah we know as the OLD Testament were written by the temple priests of the Israelites chronicling Israel's struggles with evil and judgement, and prophesy the coming of the Messiah. The NEW Testament form is a compilation of Jesus followers writings found in Dead Sea Scrolls chronicling some of the history of early followers of Jesus, writings INSPIRED by God while many Christians were captive and put to death for their belief in Jesus. The BIBLE isn't a road map for the future, 
God KNOWS and ONLY he Knows,(although it does contain mysteries of future events) it doesn't contain a code to be broken, it is not for those who are LOST and refuse Christ, its NONSENSE to the Scoffers, the BIBLE as a WORK is SPIRITUAL CONDITIONING - kinda like shampoo - the WORD, SHOULD leave your soul soft and silky. The Bible should CAUSE a follower of Christ to seek truth and sight only allowed by the HOLY SPIRIT - for without we read the passages in HUMAN ERROR and TWIST Gods inspired SPIRITUAL word to fit our HUMAN reasons.

LUCIFER uses this tool CONFUSION, to DIVIDE AND CONQUER. You only have to look at the thousand or so "Christian" splits to see that fact. Lucifer and his host cheer for RELIGIOSITY in fact LOVE it - the father of LIES and ACCUSER of followers of Christ has millions of SO CALLED CHRISTIANS sitting on fence rails doing his bidding - in the name of CHRIST no less.

SO you ask whats important - its important to refute lies/half truths told by Lucifer and BELIEVED by followers of Christ. Then shake the dust from your heels after you have done so --

Back to basics, back to Matthews record of Jesus Sermon on the Mount and back to becoming a GENUINE Followers of Jesus.


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## tngbmt

tbt, one of the better post you've made to date.. 
i wish i could have .. thought of it myself

i'm going to have to reference this passage
luke 18:26-27


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## grassman

Study how the Israelites moved throughout the wilderness. How the different tribes were positioned as they moved. I think the positions are in the book of Numbers. Put a pen to paper and you will be very moved by what you see.

After that you will never doubt He died on a cross.


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## Bird

Really, we're on this argument again?!?

If you believe that Jesus Christ died on a stake and those beliefs strengthen your faith in Jesus Christ and encourage you to live as a Christian then who am I to judge your beliefs and say that you are wrong. Likewise, if I believe that Jesus Christ died on a cross and use the a cross as a symbol of my faith and a reminder to me of His ultimate sacrifice for me and all of us and through that reminder my faith in Jesus Christ is made stronger and helps me to live my live as a Christian, then who are you to judge me and my denomination? We are all human and all sinners.

The direction this topic takes everytime, is not a healthy one and leads to bias, division and resentment of other Christian denominations. That diversion and division is the work of the evil one, not this discussion of semantics. This sounds a lot like "my religion can beat up your religion." Rather, we should all be praying "...Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven..." In other words, lets us pray for one another and let us pray for ourselves, as Jesus said while praying in Gesthamane before his death "...but not as I will, but as You will."


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## jimk

Did Jesus die on a stake or cross? The answer is "yes."


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## surfdad_96712

The supposed denomination that perpetuates these heresys about the cross or a stake, Jesus is not Jehovah God, The bible as we know it in its current translations is falsely interpeted, is in reality a CULT that operates under the influence of the spirit of anti christ.
Folks the horse is saddled up in heaven and the King of Kings is getting ready to ride
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord
Make sure your name is written in the Lambs book of life before its too late


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