# Brexit?



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

I don't want to take this to the Jungle but what do the 2coolers think about GB leaving the EU and what will it mean? Since this is totally Texas message board how will it effect us?

It seems oil is taking a beating after getting our hopes up?


----------



## Newbomb Turk (Sep 16, 2005)

I wish we could Texit......


----------



## fishingcacher (Mar 29, 2008)

No one really knows.


----------



## bill (May 21, 2004)

Why did they join together in the first place? Who needs who more? What advantage is there to stay? The whole idea, "keeps them and US safe" just don't fly with me. I would think they need to get their act together. They can work together, just as their own independent Country. That is motivation to do better on their own and not see a few struggle wanting support for the others. Might even make politicians everywhere start acting responsible and held accountable for their decisions (poor and good).


----------



## MarkU (Jun 3, 2013)

I think GB is being smart. While the rest of the EU keeps charting its course to destruction via mass immigration. GB will be able to secure its borders. Chose it's immigrants. They may see a reduction of trade throughout the EU "Club." But they can focus on other up and coming countries (India, Brazil, and others). 

Not to mention, they're paying in, to be in the EU. 

I don't consider their exit, isolationist. More preserving their sovereignty, and control of their countries future.


----------



## yakfisher (Jul 23, 2005)

MarkU said:


> I think GB is being smart. While the rest of the EU keeps charting its course to destruction via mass immigration. GB will be able to secure its borders. Chose it's immigrants. They may see a reduction of trade throughout the EU "Club." But they can focus on other up and coming countries (India, Brazil, and others).
> 
> Not to mention, they're paying in, to be in the EU.
> 
> I don't consider their exit, isolationist. More preserving their sovereignty, and control of their countries future.


Agreed


----------



## bjones2571 (May 2, 2007)

Global markets are going to take it on the chin if Brexit wins. GB will be in for a long hard recession. Politically it's not good for us as GB is our strongest ally in Europe. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkU (Jun 3, 2013)

bjones2571 said:


> Global markets are going to take it on the chin if Brexit wins. GB will be in for a long hard recession. Politically it's not good for us as GB is our strongest ally in Europe.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I understand the markets may take a hit. How much, and for how long to be determined. But as far as the markets go. Doing nothing, and staying in the EU. Doesn't guarantee they won't drop. They're markets, for no good reason the climb and fall on investor whims. And who's to say, GB won't come out ahead in the long run?

As far as politics go with the EU. Nothing to see. I don't see GB being invaded by Germany again. The EU will still need our trade, and military support. GB will have to hammer out new trade deals. But if they get penalized by EU Countries. They could return the favor.

Right now GB has a 1.1% gov bond. Germany is in negative points.

Norway,Switzerland,Monaco,Vatican City, and Russia aren't in the EU. Not to mention a few more "junk" countries. The first 4 seem to be holding their own. :brew2:


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

In times of instability or even panic money tends to flow to the dollar. A stronger dollar means cheaper oil...

So I may be motivated by self preservation but I do not wan't to see a Brexit. I think the effect on oil will be deflationary. Especially if it spreads and causes turmoil in the Euro-zone.

But I agree with fishingcatcher. No one really knows the full effect if any. Usually wild claims of doom and gloom are over stated.


----------



## 8seconds (Sep 20, 2005)

bjones2571 said:


> Global markets are going to take it on the chin if Brexit wins. GB will be in for a long hard recession.


Half of the UK's exports are to other EU countries, and they receive about 10% of their imports from other EU countries. If they vote to leave, those exports will now be subject to duties and tariffs reducing their competitiveness.

Several major banks and corporations have already publicly stated that should Brexit pass they will move to other EU countries so there goes all those high paying jobs and the economic activity and tax revenue they bring.

As for concentrating on emerging markets like India and Brazil, with their low labor costs, not to mention the costs to ship goods _to_ India and Brazil, UK goods would have to come down in price which means lower wages for UK workers.

Is it any surprise that investors have taken out over $1Billion dollars from UK equity funds over the last week?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/br...ion-from-uk-equity-funds-last-week-2016-06-17

As already mentioned, once the possibility of Brexit became more and more likely, oil prices have fallen. What do you think will happen to them should Brexit come to pass?

Houston is already hurting from the oil bust, do you _really_ want to exacerbate that problem right when there were signs of a recovery?


----------



## bjones2571 (May 2, 2007)

Ha, apparently my usage of "take it on the chin" did not actually express my intended sentiment. My thoughts actually echo yours closely. Brexit has been, and if passed, will be bad news for US and global markets, and really bad long term for the Brits. No matter the outcome, they should get rid of Cameron for even allowing the referendum.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

So it's clear, I like the Texit and the Brexit!

I don't know when you were last in the UK, if you really want to see what has happened in that country. Fly to Heathrow (coach), take the train (coach) to Manchester.

The UK is pretty close to 3rd world. They are losing their country. 

Same thing for Scotland, fly to Aberdeen, big oil jobs there. Look at the people and how they live.

The UK may very well vote to not exit, but they can't revolt, no guns allowed. So their choice is easy. 

Hey, your and my concerns about low oil prices are valid. In my mind, the Brits want their freedom back. I must support their effort to regain self rule before I worry about my bank account.


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

bjones2571 said:


> Ha, apparently my usage of "take it on the chin" did not actually express my intended sentiment. My thoughts actually echo yours closely. Brexit has been, and if passed, will be bad news for US and global markets, and really bad long term for the Brits. No matter the outcome, they should get rid of Cameron for even allowing the referendum.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I will disagree with you. Cameron should be praised for letting the people of his nation have a voice in their future.

I agree that their will be consequences and some suffering. But if they come out the other side with a stronger economy and less dependent on the rest of the Euro zone they will be better off in the long run.


----------



## MarkU (Jun 3, 2013)

8seconds said:


> Half of the UK's exports are to other EU countries. If they vote to leave, those exports will now be subject to duties and tariffs reducing their competitiveness.
> 
> Several major banks and corporations have already publicly stated that should Brexit pass they will move to other EU countries so there goes all those high paying jobs and the economic activity and tax revenue they bring.
> 
> ...


I have zero control how the Brexit vote will go. As far as the oil prices go. Anything, and everything effects them. The mild recovery has also seen Russia and the Saudi's flooding the markets. Supposedly that's why oil dropped last week. We get one good storm in the Gulf, oil will bump up. What if fracking and drilling restrictions put in place by Obama get rescinded? That would drop oil, again. My point being, we all know the oil biz is full of Boons and Busts. It's the nature of that beast.

Overseas investors sold $128 billion worth of U.S. equities in the past 12 months, suggesting theyâ€™re losing their taste for American shares, according to Deutsche Bank chief international economist Torsten Slok. link; http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2016/06/13/foreign-investors-sour-on-u-s-equities/

I don't have all the answers. But I do support anyone or country who wants to back away from the "Nanny State" ways.


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

MarkU said:


> I have zero control how the Brexit vote will go. As far as the oil prices go. Anything, and everything effects them. The mild recovery has also seen Russia and the Saudi's flooding the markets. Supposedly that's why oil dropped last week. We get one good storm in the Gulf, oil will bump up. What if fracking and drilling restrictions put in place by Obama get rescinded? That would drop oil, again. My point being, we all know the oil biz is full of Boons and Busts. It's the nature of that beast.
> 
> Overseas investors sold $128 billion worth of U.S. equities in the past 12 months, suggesting theyâ€™re losing their taste for American shares, according to Deutsche Bank chief international economist Torsten Slok. link; http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2016/06/13/foreign-investors-sour-on-u-s-equities/
> 
> I don't have all the answers. But I do support anyone or country who wants to back away from the "Nanny State" ways.


There are two main reasons why oversea investors are selling U.S. equities. Does it suggest that they are losing their taste for American shares? Or does it mean China needs the money to shore up their own economy?

My guess is the latter of the two and we will see a flow of cash from overseas driving the dollar up. In addition what is going to happen to the Chinese economy when they run out of stuff to sell to prop up their house of cards?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-than-treasuries-as-u-s-stocks-join-fire-sale


----------



## bill (May 21, 2004)

Too big to fail

No matter what, someone, someplace will be getting a bailout. Don't expect the UN to do anything. Not sure the IMF will do much..they are pushing for Britain to stay...the IMF and USA might sadly be on the hook no matter the results.


----------



## Worm Drowner (Sep 9, 2010)

There's a reason both of my pickup trucks have "Secede" bumper stickers.......


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Survive on exports to places like India? Seriously?

Total exports to India were less than $5.7 billion in 2014. That's nothing. Meanwhile, the EU has an economy basically the size of the US.

The Cameron government went forward with the vote because they thought it would never pass. They grossly over estimated the public's understanding of basic economics and simple stuff like the benefits of free trade.

The Brits have the same fundamental economic problems that plague the US. They have a domestic work force that demands high wages and benefits for jobs that can and are being performed in the 3rd world for next to nothing. So, they need to either dramatically lower domestic wage rates/cut benefits or import low wage labor. Meanwhile, the social insurance is crushing them. Again, the choice is clear - reduce benefits or import workers. Same as the US.

Meanwhile, the flag waiving idiots mistakenly think they can manipulate the domestic labor market and somehow magically produce prosperity via artificially inflated wage rates. Its the min. wage argument. It just don't work that way.

So, if they exit, jobs will flow out, domestic prices will increase, exports will be reduced, their economy will suffer, and the very people supporting the exit will generally be less wealthy. And, everyone with a clue sees this coming.

Its the EXACT same thing that will happen if we start a trade war with China.

The fundamental failure here is one of education. Irrespective of the trade policies of other countries, one is always better off with zero import tariffs. The only except is national security things like advanced weapons. A tariff is a tax on your own consumers and a production subsidy to businesses that cannot compete in the world market. Thus, only a fool would ever support tariffs.


----------



## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

bill said:


> Why did they join together in the first place?


It was all part of the NWO plan. Imagine the peace & tranquillity of the inhabitants of the 'United Federation Of Earth'... a world without borders & prosperity for all...

Hell, just imagine when the aliens come down to invite us to join in the 'Federation of Planets'... Man, I feel 'enlightened' just thinking about that a shiver just coursed through my middle leg!!!! :rotfl:


----------



## MarkU (Jun 3, 2013)

Ernest said:


> Survive on exports to places like India? Seriously?
> 
> Total exports to India were less than $5.7 billion in 2014. That's nothing. Meanwhile, the EU has an economy basically the size of the US.
> 
> ...


Once again E, you're changing statements. I wrote, "They may see a reduction of trade throughout the EU "Club." But they can focus on other up and coming countries (India, Brazil, and others). " Which logically would mean. Creating trade deals now, in Countries which are growing. No where did I state they would survive on trade with India.

GB Socialistic programs are killing them, just as ours are.

You're theory on importing low wage labor. Only expands social programs, which in turn cost the taxpayers more money. Also loses low skilled jobs, Brits are currently doing. This nets them (Brits), more pocket money how?

And this under educated BS the Lib's, and you just threw out. How many Engineers, Teachers, Doctors, Lawyers, and Bean Counters can an economy handle? You sound like Hillery trying to get all the coal miners Computer Science degrees.

Just because you can build a Brady Bunch house of cards 8' tall. By importing more cards, to add to your structure. Doesn't make it stronger. It makes it easier to collapse.


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Where did you study economics? Moscow? Havana?

India is the third world nation. The market there - and in all other third world nations - for high value goods manufactured in the developed nations like the US and the EU - is very small. And, that very small market is highly competitive. The Brits have to sell goods cheaper or better than those in the US or Germany or France.

Unless and until the GDP per capita of these third world nations rises significantly - as in many multiples - their population can't afford the imports from the developed nations. And, to pay for the imports, countries like India have to themselves export huge quantities of goods. How much wheat do you have to export to afford a Land Rover? A bunch. The wheat grown by 200 men or something buys one Land Rover. Maybe.

*How many Engineers, Teachers, Doctors, Lawyers, and Bean Counters can an economy handle?* That would depend upon the wealth of the population being served. But, that's the point. The Brits have high value labor. Engineers, Teachers, Doctors. Those are the services they can export. How many can places like India afford? Not many. Same with Brazil. Same with the rest of the third world.

I'm making the exact opposite argument than Hillary or even Trump. They both make the same argument, not a different one. They want to make America great by manipulating markets. I would suggest instead, like all traditional conservatives, free trade and free markets lead to wealth and prosperity.

I'm not saying give coal miners college degrees. I'm saying coal miners need to earn a wage commensurate with their productivity. If that is only $5.00 an hour, then they should be paid only $5.00 an hour. If it is otherwise, they will be replaced by machines. You know, like what has happened to coal mining over the last 200 years.

I built a a house of cards in 12th grade physics that supported my own weight. Then, around 150 lbs. The key was using a bunch of cards and the manner in which the cards were assembled. So, yes, a house of cards can be significantly stronger with more cards. With enough cards, I could easily build a platform that would support a car.

I think your understanding of construction is just as woefully ignorant as your understanding of economics.


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

Norway and Switzerland are not in the EU but have robust economies so I don't share Ernest's pessimism. They could fashion their own trade agreements with the EU like Norway and Switzerland did and wind up with most of the benefits of being in the EU without being a member yet having more autonomy. 

The danger is contagion. If everyone in the EU want's a better deal it could lead to a collapse. The breakup would leave the former members scrambling for the best economic deals with other nations. Inevitably some would impose their economic will on others, their would be winners and losers and we would end up with a more hostile Europe.

For the most part Europe has been in peace for over one half a century. If we look at history that's one hell of an accomplishment for them. After centuries of almost constant warfare in Europe and two World Wars I think they may be better with the EU than without it.

In our current economic condition I am not sure we could bail them out again...


----------



## 8seconds (Sep 20, 2005)

MarkU said:


> Overseas investors sold $128 billion worth of U.S. equities in the past 12 months, suggesting theyâ€™re losing their taste for American shares, according to Deutsche Bank chief international economist Torsten Slok. link; http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2016/06/13/foreign-investors-sour-on-u-s-equities/


US GDP is $18.558 Trillion http://www.imf.org/
UK GDP is $ 2.761 Trillion http://www.imf.org/

so US GDP 18.558/UK GDP 2.761 = 6.72 how many times bigger the US economy is compared to the UK

$128 Billion/52 weeks in a year= 2.46 Billion per week US Equities sold over the last year

2.45*6.7 = $16.4 Billion amount the selloff in US would have to be to equal the amount of the selloff in UK Equities

Of course while US stocks have been sold off, these same investors have been snapping up US Corporate and Treasury bonds, per your article.

The investors selling off UK equities have been moving money into Corporate bonds and *US Treasury bonds*.

Not UK, but US Treasury bonds



Its Catchy said:


> There are two main reasons why oversea investors are selling U.S. equities. Does it suggest that they are losing their taste for American shares? Or does it mean China needs the money to shore up their own economy?
> 
> My guess is the latter of the two and we will see a flow of cash from overseas driving the dollar up. In addition what is going to happen to the Chinese economy when they run out of stuff to sell to prop up their house of cards?
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-than-treasuries-as-u-s-stocks-join-fire-sale


Which makes one wonder, would there actually be a selloff in US Equities if it weren't for China's economic woes.

As for why the EU was formed, it was so their combined economy would rival our own allowing them to better compete on the world market.


----------



## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

For those that wish to read it in it's entirety:*

The United Nations NWO Agenda*

Here is how 'Agenda 21' is implemented in the U.S. & what effect it will have on you:

*Agenda 21 - American Policy CenterAmerican Policy Center*

Here the 'cliff notes':

*One Easy Lesson - What Is Agenda 21*


----------



## MarkU (Jun 3, 2013)

Ernest said:


> Where did you study economics? Moscow? Havana?
> 
> India is the third world nation. The market there - and in all other third world nations - for high value goods manufactured in the developed nations like the US and the EU - is very small. And, that very small market is highly competitive. The Brits have to sell goods cheaper or better than those in the US or Germany or France.
> 
> ...


A.) China and Japan were basically 3rd world Countries 60 yrs ago...

B.) Why would the newly educated Brits choose to move? Could it be because there's no jobs available for their now meaningless degrees?

C.) Standing on your 8' house of cards. Pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

The Brits can bargain for a Norway/Swiss style deal. But, that will take years, and like Catchy suggested, everyone would then want all the benefits of a separate deal, but none of the burdens of the EU. So, it will potentially lead to collapse. Or, instead, they will cut a hard bargain with the Brits. 

China is a third world country today. Japan was an advanced industrialized nation before WW2. Before we started building reefs in the Pacific, they arguably had the strongest Navy in the world. Then, after WW2, we invested a ton of money, which when combined with their skilled labor and access to US markets, they created a booming export economy. That's not India, and least not in the near term. 

Why are US citizens with engineering degrees working around the world? Because they can enjoy high wage rates in Saudi or UEA or wherever. That's their choice. But, what they can't do is insist upon living wherever they want in the US and working in their chosen field at their chosen wage rate. Gotta go where the work is if you want that work. 

The lack of petroleum engineering jobs or Doctor positions in Vinegar Bend, Texas does not mean those degrees are worthless. It means, there are few if any jobs in those positions at that location.


----------



## TexasVines (Jan 5, 2012)

Ernest said:


> Survive on exports to places like India? Seriously?
> 
> Total exports to India were less than $5.7 billion in 2014. That's nothing. Meanwhile, the EU has an economy basically the size of the US.
> 
> ...


this is an extremely overly simplistic view and one that also has a large contradiction in it

1. the EU and the failures of the EU and the reason to leave the EU have little to do with economics it has to do with the fact that the EU is like letting the UN run your country

it is a bunch of unelected, unaccountable, over paid scumbags with a one size fits all approach to things dictating to others how the will do things

they are the worst of the worst as far as liberal garbage policies and ideas from economics to immigration to the environment to the mandated and forced social welfare that we both agree will kill all of the EU especially as they are forced to take in third world vermin that will never assimilate and in fact will take that social welfare and use it to destroy from within

I would rather be tired, poor and hungry and surrounded by actual English citizens than a bunch of muzzies and the obama boys because at least with the English I know there is a chance to just start working to improve things Vs with the muzzies and obama boiz I have to kill them all off first while I am poor, tired and hungry before I can start working to improve things otherwise they do what they do which is breed out of control and destroy what the rest of us are trying to build

and I would rather have a single government at least somewhat ELECTED by me trying to get in the way of that Vs another "higher" level overseer that will bring to bare the resources of other countries to try and screw me as I work to improve especially when they can just do that with the "pen" that those like the obongo like to brag that they have learned to use their paw to scrawl with

2. Germany has some of the highest wages and highest standards of living (for now) of anywhere in Europe and also some of the better working conditions and yet they still manage to export a great deal of very high end goods and services specifically because those goods and services ARE high end and the highest quality and because even with those high wages ect they have a highly productive work force.......because until recently they had a cohesive national identity that centered around quality and high standards for your high wages

it is natural that the largest economies in the world will also have each other for the largest trading partners especially when they are next door to each other, but Germany also has very high exports to China #5, Poland #8 (lower wage country), Russia #16 and Mexico #23

the German exports to England are #3 on the list behind the USA and France so if Germany wants to harm England they will equally harm themselves because their exports to England are $60 billion higher than their imports from them

same with France they export $14 billion more to England than they import from them

so you looked at only half the equation for "harm" from a trade war

and with countries like Spain and Portugal and Italy every dollar they harm England is a dollar they will not get in vacation drunken English soccer and EDM hooligans on holiday so that harms them as well

3. your comments on a trade war with China are WAY off the mark specifically because you fail to analyze the actual products flowing back and forth

China imports corn, beef, chicken, soy peas, cotton, coal, oil, coking coal, iron, copper, scrap (of all kinds), plastics, precursor chemicals and on and on as far as RAW GOODS go that they MUST HAVE to produce exports and that is in addition to high value goods like planes, machine tools ect

yes China COULD set up to build some of that, but the cost is enormous and when it comes to the raw goods they either do not have them or the social consequences of moving subsistence farmers off of small farms and moving to large scale agriculture IF THEY CAN DO SO are enormous for them and could kill them if not done properly

then there is the fact that other Asian countries are now able to be as skilled if not more skilled than the Chinese and they are able to do so for CHEAPER so if the USA is in a trade war we can simply start sending raw goods to other countries (many that want to compete with China and that want to build their economy AWAY from Chinese influence)

and yes China can get raw goods from elsewhere, but the social consequences of sending cheap raw goods to China in exchange for being the "friend" of China is HIGHLY evident in our favorite third world socialist hell hole Venezuela right now and the rest of South America is not going to stand for that and even the feeble idiot african is starting to realize what it means to take "infrastructure investment" from the "friendly Chinaman and the LAST THING that China can afford is to be losing the USA import market, paying higher prices for raw goods, getting screwed on loans to third world dumps, building up their military all while trying to resettle tens of millions of peasant farmers that have not worked themselves to death in the fields yet to they can scale up their agriculture production

then there is the GREATEST threat to China in a trade war and that iw what I call "rubber tomahawk economics"

China puts a trade barrier on USA corn and soy and cotton.....THEIR PEOPLE GO HUNGRY because corn, soy peas, and cotton are FUNGIBLE and what that means is the corn that someone else sold to China instead of selling it to somewhere else......will simply be replace by the corn that the USA sold to the place that was going to buy the corn that was sent to China AT A HIGHER PRICE because those exporting to China know that China has them as the producer of last resort because they cut off the USA....so the Chinese simply pay more for the same goods because of a trade war

that is the same with ALL RAW GOODS.....Saudi sends oil to China instead of to England.....the USA sends oil to England instead of China

on the other hand what in the hell does China do with all the dime store cheap as **** rubber tomahawks, crappy tainted plush toys, rotten egg dry wall, contaminated dog treats, $400 dollar coolers, $250 dollar cheap sun glasses, beer pong balls, beer pong table covers and all the other complete and total **** that makes up the bulk of their exports TO the USA.....oh no some cheap Chinese toy that will be broken in a week just went up in proice I guess I better teach my kid how to play outside and or buy them a better quality toy that will last longer that is NOT TAINTED **** FROM CHINA

hey idiot Venezuelan chavista buffoon I know you are starving and your country just sent us a ton of fuel and oil and maybe even some food.....here is a container full of rubber tomahawks, cool sun glasses, $400 dollar coolers and some beer pong supplies

now you can look cool as hell as you fight each other with rubber tomahawks to see who gets to fill their over priced roto molded cooler with food FROM THE DUMP and after a day of scavenging THE DUMP for food you can relax with some BEER PONG!!!!! and give your hungry child a plush toy to satiate them for the night.....FIRST WORLD HERE WE COME!!!!!!

you left that little bit of ECONOMIC REALITY out of your trade war

it is the part where China imports o TON of products they need to make the things they export and to feed their population and high tech things to run their economy while they export MOSTLY **** and the steel, car parts, electronics ect that they do export are the EXACT THINGS that the USA and England or even other third world Asian countries can easily gear up to produce again

and the VAST MAJORITY of stuff that the USA and other high cost of production countries can not gear up to produce is **** THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN EXPORTED RIGHT TO THE DUMP

like rubber tomahawks and cheap *** plush toys and clothing that is thread bare ON THE SHELF and $400 dollar shoes that the obama boiz kill each other for (we will have to find something else for them to kill each other over....oh wait they do that FOR NO REASON so no issue there!!!)

so again it is not as simple as "trade war advanced country takes it in the shorts"

it is MUCH MUCH more complex than that and even if there is a SHORT TERM issue for England the long term benefits of getting back SOCIAL CONTROL of their country and their borders will have a life time of benefits over short term trade issues


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

I like beer pong! I wonder if there is a market for American made non tainted beer pong balls?


----------



## MarkU (Jun 3, 2013)

TexasVines said:


> this is an extremely overly simplistic view and one that also has a large contradiction in it
> 
> 1. the EU and the failures of the EU and the reason to leave the EU have little to do with economics it has to do with the fact that the EU is like letting the UN run your country
> 
> ...


Mic drop! Awesome post! :brew2::brew2::texasflag


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

No, its completely retarded. 

China's primary exports are not "dime store cheap as **** rubber tomahawks, crappy tainted plush toys, rotten egg dry wall, contaminated dog treats, $400 dollar coolers, $250 dollar cheap sun glasses, beer pong balls, beer pong table covers and all the other complete and total **** that makes up the bulk of their exports TO the USA." 

Instead, its electronics - 26%, machines/engines/pumps - 16%, textiles - 7%, furniture/lighting- 4%, medical eq. 3% +. 

Plastics make up less than 3% of their exports. About the same as steel/iron or shoes. 

Of the exports, only around 17% even go the US. The primary trading partners are in Asia. 

Shifting production to other low wage countries in Asia doesn't change the reality. Those products will be made elsewhere and imported to the US. Brings in no new jobs in the US. 

If you don't like those products, don't buy them. But, never think you have the right to limit my purchase of those items. 

I never said in a trade war the advanced country takes it in the shorts. My claim goes far beyond that. No country benefits from a trade war. Free trade is always the best policy (outside a narrow exception for national security items), and free trade remains the best policy even if your trading partners adopt protectionism. 

Where exactly are you going to find all the min. wage employees in the US to assemble Iphones? How about in Britain? As I said earlier, that can only happen if the wage rate falls, low cost workers are imported, or if the production is massively subsidized. The issue is not whether the goods can be produced in the US or Brit. Its whether the goods can be produced competitively. Can't do that with the current wage rates.


----------



## TexasVines (Jan 5, 2012)

Ernest said:


> No, its completely retarded.
> 
> China's primary exports are not "dime store cheap as **** rubber tomahawks, crappy tainted plush toys, rotten egg dry wall, contaminated dog treats, $400 dollar coolers, $250 dollar cheap sun glasses, beer pong balls, beer pong table covers and all the other complete and total **** that makes up the bulk of their exports TO the USA."
> 
> ...


1. most of the electronics China exports are junk.....that is why the biggest staffed department at any electronics store in the USA is the returns department because you have to go through 3 TVs before you get one that last past the warranty period

2. most of the pumps, engines and machines they export are junk that is why they go to third world Asian and African countries mostly because those places accept junk that should be "critical" that fails and leaves you without water and transportation because their day consist of sustenance living and they do not have to be anywhere on time nor do they have to be bathed to go somewhere

there is a reason China buys in machines from the USA and Germany and other places to produce the junk the export to other places......because they rely on scheduling and production not fixing broken junk over and over again until it wears out in a year.....and when you use low tolerance junk to make lower tolerance junk well you get sCrap as a product you can't even sell it

3. most of the cloths from China are junk and the if the companies that made them cared about quality they could make quality in the USA (or Central America) and have better clothing and something that actually last longer and that they make .$35 cents less per unit on

instead they have to spend billions on marketing garbage to the obama boiz under the auspices of faux 'exclusivity" and they get $400 dollars for it

if we had the obama boiz and the obama girls working 14 hours a day making that garbage maybe they would not be spawning like rats

that is what China has figured out they have a billion people with little to no skills so they keep them working their life away on small inefficient farms with only one kid to either help them or get educated and move off the farm and then the parents drop dead in their early 60s and the kid has no interest in the farm so then someone else that has a kid that stayed on the farm and married a girl that stayed on the farm takes over and maybe China gives them a junk water pump that works half the time instead of using a bucket to irrigate with 100% of the time

we can't restrict the number of people have in the USA, but we could make sure that daqunaivios and lil'nay-isha are too tieed from 14 hour work days to make it out to Bella Noche where they get drunk on ripple and breed out of control

instead we export those jobs out of the USA with "free trade" and then at the same time further drive down our own wages by importing people with 10% less "skillz" than luntarv'ion and daquisht'a, but 500% the work ethics and effort.......but of course we just watched the jobs the would do that the obama boys and girls would not do get exported out of the USA for "free trade"

4. as YOU pointed out most of the "machines" ect that China exports goes to other Asian countries not tot he USA

because the **** comes here because we are the only country stupid enough to buy it and if you like it that is on you

but the REASON we let that garbage in is because that is what makes qu'vario-ious and la'shunt'a happy because they can swipe their EBT for the "basics" and fraud some of their EBT for other "libations" and then they can buy on cheap shoes they over pay for, thumps in their 84 box Caprice on "dubs" that are worth more than the car and dat big screen doh

who cares if we price those low skill, low education low information morons out of cheap clothing and cheap 'lectronicz with import tariffs

the rest of us will work hard, save up and buy something that is QUALITY and that LAST like in the old days before everything was cheap throw away **** so the "masses" could "live large two doh"

5. when you placate the "masses" with cheap Chinese throw away garbage and cheap food to the point that they could care less about actually having to produce and then you import other lower skill (and yet more eager) worker to replace them you KILL automation in your own country

and ADVANCEMENT and AUTOMATION is what keeps HIGH SKILL countries ahead of the countries with cheap labor and labor as a commodity

again you are looking at the SMALLER PICTURE and the SHORT TERM and you are ignoring the micro economics of macro economics

here look at this article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cavenge-food-rubbish-dumps-DOGS-starving.html

ask yourself this

why does the one guy have SEVEN KIDS

ask yourself this why are all those people wearing cheap "designer" goods like polo Tshirts, NY hats, AIR JORDEN HATS THAT LOOK BRAND NEW, Adidas shirts...BUT THEY HAVE NO FOOD

and even IF some of that was throw aways from the USA or donations from the USA (the Air Jorden hat is WAY TOO NEW for that) again what does it say about the USA

we are so worried about "free trade" that we have set our economy up where the lowest skilled of the low skill and the least responsible are trying to compete with third world labor in countries that DO NOT PLAY FAIR EVEN IN "FAIR TRADE"

and specifically competing against a country that would not be able to produce half of what they make if they were not able to get cheap raw goods from across the globe in from the USA and from Venezuela

the ONLY difference between Venezuela and the USA is that the USA has faced this competition well after MOST of their population has become educated enough to compete in a medium skill position while Venezuela has not

but of course in an effort to keep those VERY LOW SKILL JOBS we are busy importing LOW SKILL PEOPLE for JOBS WE ARE EXPORTING

and worst of all it has gotten bad enough that to keep up with the ability to export RAW GOODS we now have to go to automation in those industries to compete and that KILLS MORE JOBS IN THE USA

6. but of course you said it yourself.....who cares as long as you can buy the cheap garbage you want to buy

but the problem is with many that think like that is unless you are in a very very few industries then automation is most likely coming for your job

because automation is what can make those raw goods producing jobs and those farming jobs and some of those high tech manufacturing jobs still be competitive

and when automation comes well then you are competing against a machine for a job you have to buy your cheap ****

and the USA finds like Venezuela that you can still get all the cheap **** you want because China is glad to produce it.....but what you can't get is FOOD or FUEL or electricity or a DECENT quality refrigerator because all the RAW GOODS for that have been automated for supplying a country that supplies **** back to you

again you said it yourself we are 17% of the Chinese exports

that is ONE COUNTRY out of the world buying in that JUNK

one dollar out of every $5.50 dollars China takes in comes from THE USA

and it is to take in JUNK like crappy over priced clothing and fishing reels that break in a month and $400 dollar coolers that cost $3 dollars to make

and in turn we are importing low skill labor to try and keep the cost down on what we do produce in low skill jobs and we are automating our high skill high pay jobs to try and supply cheap raw goods to China so they can send us back JUNK

you simply do not advance your country by trying to have your low skill labor force compete with third world countries to produce NON ESSENTIAL GOODS while at the same time trying to automate your essential goods production so that you can keep the price low so you can export RAW GOODS to get back JUNK

again that is exactly what is going on in Venezuela and the USA and Africa and pretty much the rest of the world minus some countries in Europe that (as of now) have a cohesive national identity and an overall lack of raw goods to export

WHEN YOU HAVE THE RAW GOODS YOU HAVE THE CONTROL

when you give up your raw goods to get back **** you lose control especially when you throw open your borders to importing that **** which drives down your LOW SKILL NON ESSENTIAL ITEMS wages like tennis shoes and "designer goods" and big screen TVs and cheap 7-11 plush toys and beer pong **** that ends up in the trash after the party and electronic bug zappers and the like

who cares if lil'tashundroundreikisha and la-farkle can't afford an eyefone five yo

the answer is not to throw open the borders so those losers can have 7 kids between the two of them and still afford cheap **** the answer is to make the work themselves to death so they are too tired to drink and breed and brawl at the mall over cheap $400 dollar shoes

but when you open the borders so the few jobs they are (semi) qualified for GO AWAY to the third world and then you double down by importing the third world to try and make the wages of the few of those jobs left cheap enough to compete.....well your country goes to hell over time especially when you automate away your high skill jobs trying to compete as you sign away more national control to "free trade"

I totally believe in the idea of "baking a bigger pie" or "making more pies" but the free traders always forget that for that to work you have to make sure the rats and the roaches are not getting all the pie they want so they are in condition to breed out of control

first world countries with constitutional freedoms do not have the ability to limit breeding......third world countries do

BUT....what first world countries USED TO HAVE was the ability to control what left the country and what came into the country and the thus overall life style of those that are irresponsible

but when you give that away you are just watching the rest of the world advance while your country imports CHEAP **** for your out of control rats and roaches to "live styles on up en hur doh got dem knew ahir jorens an dat eye fone six doh foril"

those rats and roaches SHOULD be working low wage jobs for LONG HOURS MANY DAYS OF THE WEEK for a BARELY ABOVE SUSTENANCE LIFESTYLE that will force their KID (notice NOT PLURAL) to place a VALUE ON EDUCATION instead of losing their low wage and low skill job to third worlders sending us ALL back JUNK


----------



## Warlock1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Sorry I have not been able to post on this issue...I had to reregister... since I have a British passport and still have family assets in England this subject is dear to me...for the average Englishman he has watched the country being lost through immigration and it is probably the root cause of the exit voters along with a distain for losing their National Identity.

Simply put Brussels calls the shots on commerce....how would you feel if Mexico City did the same thing for the U.S. (You could make a case they do)

I was there a month ago for the end of the Premier league season to watch a kickball game and it was almost the end of the first day that I talked to a service oriented worker that was from Britain. London is worse than the north but it is pervasive through out the country...they will simply continue to lose their national Identity without Brexit...its really that simple...and is where we are heading in the not to distant future...

Leaving London I had a secondary screening conducted for a knife on my key chain (Smallest model made with a 3/4 inch blade) that I have flown with for years in the same place in my back pack and has gone through screenings more than likely 100 times and all over the world....the Screening was conducted by a UK TSA agent in a Hajab! 

I would vote for Brexit if I could and just missed the deadline by a year...but all my family and friends are voting leave.


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

You are not making economic arguments. You are on some social rant. I don't care how others spend their money. Its their money. Not mine. 

My Yeti was made in Thailand. I don't care what it cost to produce. I care about its performance for the price. When I bought, it offered the best performance for my dollar. I really don't care what you think of my purchasing decision. After all, its my money, not yours and not some government regulator's. 

No, those that control some relatively small % of raw materials do not control global trade in the commodity. Plus, we are not a raw material country. We sell high value services and goods. That's our future. We have invested far to much in educating our population to have them working jobs that could be done for pennies on the dollar in the third world. 

We buy 17% of China's exports because our economy makes up around 22% of the world GDP (from a PPP view), and we have 25% of the world's wealth (PPP). 

Any purchasing decision is price vs. quality. Pay more, get more. If you convince the American people to pay more for US made quality, then you don't need massive tariffs on goods made in China. But, you can't. People, in general, will not pay more for quality. So, some want to use the government to FORCE people to pay more for what is sold as better quality, US made goods. That's not freedom, its more big government meddling. 

Your real complaint is about the welfare state in the US and the employment participation and/or skill set of some groups. Fine. Fix that. But, do so on your dime, not mine. I should not be forced to pay $15.00 for a T-shirt that I could otherwise buy for $5.00 to fund some social experiment.

Tariffs REDISTRIBUTE my money in the form of a consumption tax and a production subsidy. So, say what you really mean. You want to tax me to punish me for making decisions you don't approve of and to subsidize US manufacturing.


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

TexasVines,

Free trade, social welfare and the quality of Chinese goods and services are three different issues that you are mixing up into one barrel. In the worldwide economy the quick movement of goods and services across borders is paramount to the future of any nations economic health. Nowadays very few things are exclusively "Made In USA". They contain components from all over the world.

Although I tend to agree with you the quality of many Chinese goods is extremely poor there are exceptions and nobody is forcing me to buy imported junk. As a consumer I make daily decisions based on cost vs quality. Something's I spend the extra money on some I don't.

As far as your social comments. As a percentage the black population (currently 14.2%) of our total population is less than it was in 1790. Both the white and hispanic have grown at a faster rate and make up a bigger percentage of the total population in the U.S.

http://blackdemographics.com/population/


----------



## TexasVines (Jan 5, 2012)

Its Catchy said:


> TexasVines,
> 
> Free trade, social welfare and the quality of Chinese goods and services are three different issues that you are mixing up into one barrel. In the worldwide economy the quick movement of goods and services across borders is paramount to the future of any nations economic health. Nowadays very few things are exclusively "Made In USA". They contain components from all over the world.
> 
> ...


lets cover simple economic realities

1. I agree that the free flow of goods and services matters to a nation's health

what you can't seem to understand is that things can HARM health as much or more than they benefit it

how on earth can anyone think that "free trade" is good when your country sends $5 dollars of goods and services to a country and that country sells back to you $7 dollars in goods and services

where does that $2 dollar difference come from

how long can your country continue to sell less goods and services to another country than you buy in from them and believe that the other country will not end up owning your economy and or they will not use that trade surplus to invest in the education of their people, in the high tech industries they have not yet taken over and to bride third world dictators like madero and mad bob mugabe to plunder the raw goods of their countries

if you and Earnest fall out of your boat and you start swimming back towards the boat and you are swimming faster and faster and looking good doing it in cheap consumer goods and maybe even expending money to look good doing it

you and Earnest want to ignore the fact that no matter how fast you swim towards the boat the boat is still moving away from you at an even faster and faster rate

and your answer back is "well we are still swimming faster ourselves to we are OK"......yes you are swimming faster and even paying less to look good doing it.......but the boat is still getting further and further away from you

and then you want to try and couple the idea that to "help you" the government has come along and tossed a couple of freeloaders that can't swim on your backs and told you to help them get to the boat as well and then you can all ride in the boat and go fishing

and you think "great Earnest and I are still swimming faster and faster".......while ignoring that the boat is still moving away from you faster than that and ignoring that the weight of the free loaders has slowed down the rate of increase in your swimming speed and increased the cost of you looking good while swimming for he boat because of course those freeloaders have to look good free loading as well

and you and Earnest try and answer that the free loaders have nothing to do with anything because you are still swimming faster and the fact that the boat is moving away from you at an even faster rate has nothing to do with anything and you will address the freeloaders and the currents once you are back on the boat

but of course you are never going to catch the boat because no matter how fast you swim it still moves away faster and the government still piles on more freeloaders that decreases the rate of increase in your swimming speed.....while some other government just put someone in the boat and they have now put the boat in gear and they are throttling away from you as well as using the current

but all that matters to you and Earnest is that you are still swimming faster than when you started and it is costing you less to do so than when you started and everything else you will deal with......when you get back to the boat

2. when you lose control of your economy and your quality of life you lose control of your national identity

when you have stupid people in charge they ignore the fact that the boat is somehow moving away from people in your country faster and faster and they like to point out that everyone is still swimming faster than before and looking good doing so for cheaper

and when they have a very antiquated mindset of "labor" and "warm bodies" are needed because in the past economies with a shrinking population had a shrinking economy (even though we live in a world where the number of feet of ditch you can dig with a shovel has little to no value) well those same idiots like to pile more freeloaders onto the backs of the swimmers trying to catch that boat and point out that you are still swimming faster than before and still looking cooler for cheaper while swimming for that boat.......ignore that the boat is still getting further and further away.......ignore that it now cost you more to own that boat.......ignore that others are now buying the means of production for that boat......ignore that the cost of looking cool while swimming for that boat is rapidly getting to the point that you will soon not be able to afford to look cool while swimming.....much less the boat......much less food and water to keep swimming faster

because affording a boat, free loaders, other countries buying up your means of production, the speed of the current, someone else now in the boat and throttling away from you......all of those things are not really "related" to the fact that you are still swimming faster than before and paying less to look cool doing so......but of course your rate of increase in swimming speed is rapidly moving towards no increase.......your savings on the cost of looking cool is rapidly moving towards zero.....and most importantly the boat is still moving away from you faster and someone else is taking the helm of it and helping it move away faster

all those things are secondary and tertiary to the fact that you are still swimming faster than before and looking good doing so for a lower cost than when you started so we are all "ok"!!!

3. you simply cannot decouple your economy, your trade, your quality of life and your national identity and if you believe you can then you are just a swimmer in the ocean telling yourself that all is well because you are swimming faster than before while ignoring that soon you will be a swimmer in an ocean that can't even see the boat any longer

and you are also pretending that your goal that day was to go out and swim in the ocean after your boat with a bunch of freeloaders and to look good for cheap doing so......when MY goal and I think the goal of a lot of others in a FIRST WORLD COUNTRY is not to swim after a boat in the ocean, but to actually BE ON THE BOAT and fishing or skiing or drinking beer and relaxing with QUALITY products that do not frustrate me as they fall apart out in the middle of the ocean where my only recourse is to toss it overboard and go buy another when I get back to shore

when you give up control of your economy it is like giving up control of your boat......you no longer steer the boat someone else does......you no longer control the speed of the boat someone else does......you no longer say where the boat goes to fish someone else does.....they can start telling you what it cost to ride on the boat.....maybe it even starts out less than what it cost you when you had control of the boat

but over time when you are paying out daily in fees and cost to ride on the boat that is greater than you are bringing in for income.....you will have to face the REALITY that you either need to get back control of your boat or you need to come to grips wit the idea that one day you will bring in $5 dollars in income and the boat owner will say it cost $7 dollars to ride the boat and you will say "but I only earned $5 dollars today and $5 dollars is all I have" and they will answer back "swim"......but hey you will be just like those people in Venezuela you will look really good doing it and it will not cost you a lot to look good doing it......especially now that you are no longer paying to be on a boat and all your income is going to cheap consumer goods a meager amounts of food

ignore the boat is moving away faster.....ignore the cost of food is now going up faster than your currency increases in value......ignore that you no longer have savings and investments......ignore all those formerly 
"lovable" and highly unproductive (and destructive) freeloaders around you that still look as good as you do.......ignore that you really want to be on the boat

instead concentrate on how much faster you are swimming towards a boat that is moving away from you and the fact that you are paying less now than in the past to look good doing so

4. everything we have no matter what it is comes from Gods green earth

if you can reach out and touch it, if you can see it and if you have ever seen it then it came from Gods green earth

you are either a producer of what comes from Gods green earth, you are involved in adding value (processing) to what comes from Gods green earth, you are involved in designing things that use materials from Gods green earth, you sell/distribute the production and the value added products from Gods green earth OR you are involved in adding to the quality of life for those that are involved in the production, value addition or design of what comes from Gods green earth and those would be entertainers, service sector people, sports afleets, kRap "artist".....or you are simply a freeloader and often destructive to society in general and an all consuming parasite

the more your economy moves away from the production of what comes from Gods green earth and the addition of value to what comes from Gods green earth and the more your economy moved towards one centered and instead moves towards a service sector economy for things produced or value added elsewhere the more you lose control of your economy and the more you lose control of your national identity

the more you get caught up in how cheap you can buy something instead of getting caught up in the larger macro transfer of national wealth, means of production, raw land and raw materials ownership that is going on around you and the decline in those that actually product from Gods green earth and those that add value to what comes from Gods green earth in favor of those that service the few left that produce and add value.....the more you lose control of your economy and the more you lose control of your national identity

because you do not exist on an Island......you might be the captain of your own boat NOW.....but for how long

you might be doing better overall than in the past or paying less for your lifestyle than before......but as those around you fall how long can you prop them up......how long before they take you down with them.......how long before the race to the bottom for cheap goods catches up to you......how long until the countries that pay you $5 dollars for what you produce and demand $7 dollars back for what they produce make use of that $2 dollar surplus to better educate their populous, to compete with your best industries, to bribe others that rule countries filled with ignorant uneducated fools with no standard of living expectations to plunder their raw goods

how long until that all catches up and overwhelms you

and EVEN IF you are one of the people left eating at the country club in Venezuela while all those well dressed dolts scavenge for food and look good doing it.....who in the hell wants to live surrounded by THAT

it will NEVER CHANGE

when you lose control of your economy and the ability to control your economy and to thus control your standard of living you lose control of your national identity and then in short order you will lose control of your nation

and even IF you are one of the FEW doing well.....who wants to do well in a sea of squalor, crime, disease and freeloading scum set on coming for you and yours eventually

and that is what the unregulated flow of goods and services between VASTLY dissimilar countries, with vastly different styles of government, vastly different amounts of national resources, vastly different rights and freedoms and vastly different overall national identities brings you

because you cannot simply decouple your national economy, quality of life, national identity, national standards, rights and freedoms ect from what goods and services you provide and or import and the price you pay and the price you receive for them

and if you believe that you can then you will only kick the can down the road and you watch things get ever worse and fool yourself into believing it is not happening and that you exist on an island in a country of 300 million people competing against a world of 6 billion people and it is not happening to you because you have access to cheap consumer goods

and you will make a series of ever more destructive decisions to your national identity and your national economy and your long term standard of living in a failed short term effort to push that reality off further down the road

and worst of all you will kid yourself they are all unrelated or they can be corrected without getting to the root of the problem which is the loss of control of your economy as you try and compete for the VERY LONG TERM against countries that are nowhere near the same and that do not have the same goals and ideals and standards and freedoms and that do not play fair around the rest of the world


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

TexasVines

A couple of points you are missing. We are the worlds largest economy and we have a few huge advantages. 

The biggest is being the worlds reserve currency. This benefit has been dubbed by many as an "Exorbitant Privilege". Since WWII we have been able to "trade" our paper (Greenbacks) to other nations for real goods and services. It's a pretty enviable position to be in as long as you can pay the cost of servicing that debt.

So in the analogy you used we are still able to keep up with the boat we "fell out of". And we can even bring a few "freeloaders" with us for the ride and continue to "keep up". As long as we hold that position.

The second China demands 7 dollars for what they produce and only want's to pay us 5 dollars for what we produce they are going to have a really, really hard time selling it here. You said it yourself, their quality sucks and the only reason it sells here is it is "cheap".

In the new world economy our future is not trying to compete with third world nations for low skill jobs and services. it's in exporting high tech goods and services to the developing nations. As they dig out of poverty they will want the things we produce.


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

*when you lose control of your economy and your quality of life you lose control of your national identity 
*

Who is "you?" Its the government, right? That's who "you" is in your sentence, right?

Just say it. TxVines wants the government to control the economy to advance the government's notion of the appropriate quality of life and identity. That's the only meaning that can be ascribed to your statement.

I get it. I really do. I just disagree.

I want no government control of the economy (except to enforce contracts and prevent stuff like fraud). My quality of life is my business, not yours or the government. In that regard, the government can't improve anyone's quality of life, except by taking wealth from another.

Same with my national identity. I define that, not some government regulator.

In fact, the very idea of the government manipulating the economy for social betterment or the glory of the Motherland is horrific to me. Terrifying.


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

Looks like there is a very realistic chance that there may be a Brexit when we wake up tomorrow.


----------



## LaddH (Sep 29, 2011)

BBC is saying UK is leaving EU.
There are around a million votes more in favor of leaving than staying with most areas counted.
Hold on to your hat. This is going to get interesting.


----------



## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

My wife and I have dear friends from the UK. Most are retired RAF and RN folks, my email is exploding, they are really happy.

One of the emails asked for quotes for me to come over and "plan, schedule, and execute a PROPER Independence Day celebration." 

I'll let them sober up, heck we may go over and visit.

God Bless em, there is a lesson to be learned here.


----------



## 8seconds (Sep 20, 2005)

LaddH said:


> Hold on to your hat. This is going to get interesting.


You ain't just whistling Dixie there, bub!

Scotland is already talking about having another referendum to leave the UK:

*EU referendum: Scotland votes Remain as UK on course to vote Leave*

http://www.bbc.com/news/

Scotland has voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38% - with all 32 council areas backing Remain.

But the UK as a whole is on course to vote Leave - raising the prospect of Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will.

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said Scotland had delivered a "strong, unequivocal vote" to remain in the EU.

The BBC is forecasting a win for Leave by 52% to 48% in the referendum, with some areas still to declare.

Ms Sturgeon's predecessor, Alex Salmond, said the result could lead to a second independence referendum.

*'Quite certain'*

The SNP manifesto for May's Scottish Parliament election said there should be another referendum if there was a "significant and material" change in circumstances, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will.

Mr Salmond told the BBC he was "quite certain Nicola Sturgeon would implement the SNP manifesto."

Glasgow voted by 168,335 (67%) to 84,474 (33%) in favour of Remain, although turnout was relatively low.

Edinburgh backed Remain by 187,796 (74%) to 64,498 (26%), but results in England and Wales were much better for Leave.


----------



## RRbohemian (Dec 20, 2009)

Congrats Brits! It's your country and ONLY BRITS should be in charge of it not some european elites.


----------



## yakfisher (Jul 23, 2005)

RRbohemian said:


> Congrats Brits! It's your country and ONLY BRITS should be in charge of it not some european elites.


X2!

might be a bumpy road for a bit, but UK will be far better off leaving the sinking ship of the EU


----------



## Johnny9 (Sep 7, 2005)

Knew I should have bought Gold and Smith and Wesson. My Broker talked me out of buying both so Adios Dude !!!


----------



## Worm Drowner (Sep 9, 2010)

Perhaps it's time for "Texit"......


----------



## bill (May 21, 2004)

Expect a lot of doom and gloom and some finger shaking.

I don't know what all will happen but I am glad there are some people in Countries that have the ability to lead their Country in a direction they wish.

I see this as a sign people do not want uncontrolled immigration/refugee migrations into their Country.

This should be a wake-up call to Politicians every where.


----------



## tstorm5 (Aug 27, 2009)

Watch the markets open this morning. This might be EPIC.


----------



## Jerry-rigged (May 21, 2004)

Was listening to the radio this morning, and there was in interview with a pro-exit brit. He was saying that around 80% of all new law in Britain was coming from Brussels (EU). Also, he claimed that the elected EU parliament had no ability to propose / write laws. All laws came from appointed 'leaders', and the EU parliament only had an up/down - AKA Rubber Stamp - vote...


----------



## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

^^^ Knee jerk reaction, nothing more, nothing less. ^^^

I was always taught that when things are 'going to hell in a hand basket' to stand perfectly still & watch before making a move. This is exactly what I've always done, especially in the investment area. Things will eventually settle down & you will still own everything that you did before - why turn a 'paper loss' into a 'real loss' by following a panicked herd?

Never make a decision the you're angry or scared.


----------



## bluefin (Aug 16, 2005)

I think you guys are missing what the real heart of the matter was for the Brit voters. It wasn't so much about the EU as much as it was a referendum on their Muslim immigration. 
Spoke with a Brit this morning. He tells me that the avg voter is more concerned about what the Muslims are doing to their country than any economic policy the EU could throw at them.
The scare tactics by the libs there obviously didn't work as they saw one of their highest percentage of voters ever come out to vote their opinion.


----------



## 8weight (Mar 24, 2016)

tstorm5 said:


> Watch the markets open this morning. This might be EPIC.


Good buying opportunity!

Brits make the right call and side with Trump.

Obama and Hillary on the wrong side of history.

The #1 issue for Leave: Immigration


----------



## Capt Tom (Jul 16, 2005)

Big hit for the "one world order" group......


----------



## Jerry-rigged (May 21, 2004)

bluefin said:


> I think you guys are missing what the real heart of the matter was for the Brit voters. It wasn't so much about the EU as much as it was a referendum on their Muslim immigration.
> Spoke with a Brit this morning. He tells me that the avg voter is more concerned about what the Muslims are doing to their country than any economic policy the EU could throw at them.
> *The scare tactics by the libs there obviously didn't work as they saw one of their highest percentage of voters ever come out to vote their opinion.*


Something like 75% of voters voted!!! That is HUGE!


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

Elections have consequences, and now the Brits will have to deal with the consequences of this. A narrowly divided country that will face considerable head winds over the near and medium term. Pound getting beat up today, stock market down, and more to come for sure. 

This illustrates why our country does not use plebiscites. But, if the Brits want mob rule, that's their business. Tough that business is bad. They were warned and did it anyway. 

One interesting aspect is the age divide here. Tends to mirror the age divide we saw in 2008 and 2012. Not the whole US conservative vs. liberal nonsense some want to export to the Brit, but the vastly different outlooks/views correlated with age.


----------



## Lee T (Jun 15, 2016)

I have some Friends in England and they were never for the "Union".
Brits like their independence on their little Island.
Many do not care to be over run by "immigrants".

Britain doesn't even have mosquitoes for Pete's Sake.
Not going to tolerate Islamic fleas well.
Britain is made up of a bunch of small towns and small town mentality rules.
London, well that is a breed of it's own and doesn't much resemble Britain.

I have no idea what Markets will do. I suspect and hope for quick stabilization.
They have the most wonderful fruit from Spain, I would hope that is not affected.
:texasflag


----------



## iamatt (Aug 28, 2012)

tstorm5 said:


> Watch the markets open this morning. This might be EPIC.


http://www.zerohedge.com is always a good read and comments are great.


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

Strictly economically speaking I think the EU is a great idea. Multiple nations working together to promote and increase trade across borders. Free trade is a good thing.

Where they ran into a problem is expanding the scope of the EU from economic issues into the social realm. Handing over the reigns of your country to appointed officials rather than elected ones that reside outside your nation is a recipe for disaster.

The downside to all this is contagion. Ireland, Scotland, France, Italy and others all have been moaning about better deals as well and now they will have fuel. This could be the beginning of the end for the EU...


----------



## Capt Tom (Jul 16, 2005)

Lee T said:


> I have some Friends in England and they were never for the "Union".
> Brits like their independence on their little Island.
> Many do not care to be over run by "immigrants".
> 
> ...


That echoes my British friends sediments as well.....


----------



## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

bluefin said:


> I think you guys are missing what the real heart of the matter was for the Brit voters. It wasn't so much about the EU as much as it was a referendum on their Muslim immigration.
> Spoke with a Brit this morning. He tells me that the avg voter is more concerned about what the Muslims are doing to their country than any economic policy the EU could throw at them.
> The scare tactics by the libs there obviously didn't work as they saw one of their highest percentage of voters ever come out to vote their opinion.


Bingo

Add Greece and other problems to the fold. Plus the Brits have always been a bunch that thinks they should lead rather than follow.


----------



## bluefin (Aug 16, 2005)

My one sentence take on the Brits vote - they'd rather be poor than put up with Muslim immigrants.


----------



## mstrelectricman (Jul 10, 2009)

I'm prayin for the Brits and hope all the doom and gloom idiots are proven wrong. They usually are. To ignore the problems brought on by unchecked liberalism is just stupid. Same thing here in our country. We must have borders. My question that speaks to the unchecked immigration problem here is:

What about "illegal" do you not understand? Do it legally and you won't be separated from your family. Simple.
I did have a warm and fuzzy feeling yesterday when the Scotus told odummy to pound sand! Some sanity raised it's head.


----------



## Lee T (Jun 15, 2016)

bluefin said:


> My one sentence take on the Brits vote - they'd rather be poor than put up with Muslim immigrants.


Typically they are not "poor".
They are more reserved in many ways and do not flaunt their prosperity.
They are different from most Americans as many cannot recognize value of Family and integrity. Most Brits hold those two traits plus others highly.

They practice some weird things in my observations.
An example, they keep their cars a long time.
In USA it is frowned upon to drive a 20 year old car and there they do it as matter of course. They value and take care of things. Of course they primarily have much higher quality vehicles than we do. Diesel engines rule of course and all we can get here is smokey trucks or smokey VWs primarily!

Americans search and destroy! I know...I am like that.

It is easy to walk many places in a village for daily tasks and leave the new Mercedes in garage for travel necessities.

In many ways they are doing very well, even financially and quality of life.

#1 they are primarily a happy people.

The public schools are a bit beyond ours. Comparable to the best of Private USA schools.

I think leaving the EU is good move. I think it would have been best to never have partaken but they did and now admit error...Correction.
"They" did not ask me my opinion when it all began!

It rains too much there!


----------



## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

Ernest said:


> Elections have consequences, and now the Brits will have to deal with the consequences of this. A narrowly divided country that will face considerable head winds over the near and medium term. Pound getting beat up today, stock market down, and more to come for sure.
> 
> This illustrates why our country does not use plebiscites. But, if the Brits want mob rule, that's their business. Tough that business is bad. They were warned and did it anyway.
> 
> One interesting aspect is the age divide here. Tends to mirror the age divide we saw in 2008 and 2012. Not the whole US conservative vs. liberal nonsense some want to export to the Brit, but the vastly different outlooks/views correlated with age.


Mob Rule, are you kidding me? So you disagree with the people voting on an issue?

If the outcome had been "Remain", would you have called that "mob rule"? I doubt it!

As for the demographics and their vote selection, it is curious that you list your age as 50, yet your post reflects the view of a 28 year old SJW.

The country voted on an issue, they reached a decision. You might give your post a little more thought. Here is some music to listen to while you ponder.


----------



## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

*So you disagree with the people voting on an issue? 
*

Yes, God yes. Who won the popular vote in 2000? How about 2008 or 2012? How many popular votes have been won by the Repubs since Reagan?

I love the Electoral College. I also love how the Senate gives disproportionate representation to the Red States.

I call it mob rule because that is what direct democracy is, mob rule. Same as Jefferson and Hamilton and Franklin and Madison. Shall I go on?

How about we do a plebiscite on banning evil black rifles?

And, that's the point made without equivocation by our Founding Fathers. Direct democracy tramples individual rights. Real liberty is NOT founded on the extremes of direct democracy. Instead, it is founded upon the moderating influence of a Republican form of government (to paraphrase Hamilton).

You guys are merely projecting your own fears and desires on the immigration issue onto others. Whole bunch of conservatives, in this country and in Brit, are all about free trade and open markets.

Take this thread as an illustration. People demanding that I be subject to a consumption tax and provide a production subsidy to redirect my income to others so Iphones or Yeti's can be build in the US. That's the lunacy of direct democracy. Anal stimulation devices voting to redirect my income for the benefit of society.

That's not freedom or liberty. That's the tyranny of the mob.


----------



## fishinguy (Aug 5, 2004)

Congrats to the Brits on getting their country back.


----------



## bluefin (Aug 16, 2005)

Ernest said:


> *So you disagree with the people voting on an issue?
> *Yes, God yes.
> You guys are merely projecting your own fears and desires on the immigration issue onto others. Whole bunch of conservatives, in this country and in Brit, are all about free trade and open markets.


Fears and desires onto others? Seriously? 
The Brits are seeing Europe going broke and turning into a sewer while the new immigrants are having their way with free housing and various subsidies. Country after country is seeing severe spikes in crime attributed to these Middle East heathens. There has been very little sign of them assimilating or even wanting to. They have no skills and little to no education and their historical 'values' offer no hint that it may change.

At least now the Brits can say they tried the EU and the immigration thing. Sorry. It didn't work out. Sort of like a bad relative who needed a place to stay and they couldn't obey your house rules. You show them the door. Maybe give 'em a fish sandwich as you show them out.


----------



## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

I don't understand the relation between immigrants and the EU exit. 
Is there any LEGAL/CONTRACTUAL requirement in EU that Britain must allow Muslim immigration, which is circumvented only if Britain leaves the EU ? 

It appears that the decision to leave simply because Britain no longer wants other weaker economies....such as Greece...to continue to make a living off her tits. 
The EU was formed to counterbalance the threat of Soviet domination. That is no longer critical today to justify staying in the EU. In addition, when and if the shooting starts Germany is likely the only one with backbone to face up to Putin anyway.


----------



## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

mas360 said:


> I don't understand the relation between immigrants and the EU exit.
> Is there any LEGAL/CONTRACTUAL requirement in EU that Britain must allow Muslim immigration, which is circumvented only if Britain leaves the EU ?
> 
> It appears that the decision to leave simply because Britain no longer wants other weaker economies....such as Greece...to continue to make a living off her tits.
> The EU was formed to counterbalance the threat of Soviet domination. That is no longer critical today to justify staying in the EU. In addition, when and if the shooting starts Germany is likely the only one with backbone to face up to Putin anyway.


From what I read, the EU allowed fee trade, as well as movement between countries. So Muslims could just drive over through the tunnel and set up residence. The EU is different from the Eurozone, which is all about the Euro Dollar but, they are tied together.

Trade deals being made on the behalf of the Brits but a panel that run the EU. No way to keep undesirables out. Loss of sovereignty. Sounds a lot like the stuff Trump rails about doesn't it?

They are just as sick of them there as we are of the illegals here.


----------



## BullyARed (Jun 19, 2010)




----------



## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

My understanding is the "free movement" applies only to citizens of EU member nation, it does not include non-citizen, does it? 

The trade deals appears more likely the issue since they are probably made on the basis of benefits to ALL members instead of only one particular member nation. Weak economy such as Greece gets to enjoy the welfare benefits of the EU at the expense of strong economy such as Britain/Germany, correct? 

Is Germany going to exit soon?


----------



## SeaOx 230C (Aug 12, 2005)

It's amazing to me how many people will give up there freedom and sovereignty for economic gain or security. And coming from people in Texas it is even more concerning. 

Our founders warned us about that, good for the Brits in acting on it.

We quite often poo poo the UN trying to control all kinds of things in the US with UN resolutions. Why wouldn't we think it is a great thing for the Brits to want to take back control of their country from the EU. 


I myself would rather be dirt poor and free than rich and bound. I never understood why Britain and Germany ever joined in the first place. It was obvious from the get go that the EU was just another step down the road toward NWO.


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

mas360 said:


> My understanding is the "free movement" applies only to citizens of EU member nation, it does not include non-citizen, does it?
> 
> The trade deals appears more likely the issue since they are probably made on the basis of benefits to ALL members instead of only one particular member nation. Weak economy such as Greece gets to enjoy the welfare benefits of the EU at the expense of strong economy such as Britain/Germany, correct?
> 
> Is Germany going to exit soon?


No country has benefited more from the EU than Germany. If it breaks up the Germans have the most to lose.


----------



## Lee T (Jun 15, 2016)

SeaOx 230C said:


> It's amazing to me how many people will give up there freedom and sovereignty for economic gain or security. And coming from people in Texas it is even more concerning.
> 
> Our founders warned us about that, good for the Brits in acting on it.
> 
> ...


2X


----------



## 8seconds (Sep 20, 2005)

SeaOx 230C said:


> It's amazing to me how many people will give up there freedom and sovereignty for economic gain or security. And coming from people in Texas it is even more concerning.


You should talk to some former Oil & Gas folks who can't find new employment.

Some people on here have already said they wouldn't hire former O&G people, and I have heard of several places that will just throw away applications from ex oilfield people.

When you're not getting interviews or phone calls and your savings are running out, economic security becomes _very_ desirable.

Hopefully you never find out.


----------



## freespool (Oct 1, 2005)

We have been here in London for a week. It has been quite interesting watching the lead up to the vote and the result. The afternoon paper on the 23rd was even calling for a narrow win for the remain side.
It has been much quieter than any of our election and campaign bs. From people we spoke to on trains, cabs, and around London it seemed to be mostly split along generation lines. The older Brits being on the leave side.
Even with markets and the pound down today people are still going to work, enjoying picnics in the park, and generally in an upbeat mood. They are showing their typical British reserve to Keep Calm and Carry On.
Pretty neat to be here while history is made.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## acoastalbender (Jul 16, 2011)

Dollar will be stronger, our exports will suffer for it ... jm.02

.


----------



## freespool (Oct 1, 2005)

Did I mention staying in a pretty decent hotel and every single worker is not from England. About 50% of interactions at food places and such are with people native to other lands as well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Lee T (Jun 15, 2016)

freespool said:


> Did I mention staying in a pretty decent hotel and every single worker is not from England. About 50% of interactions at food places and such are with people native to other lands as well.
> 
> Of course, European Countries and England have diverse descent of people. Brits are prejudiced towards Brits however.
> You are in London which is very different than England. Go south and meet some Brits. South coast is awesome diving, fishing, boating.
> ...


----------



## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

freespool said:


> Did I mention staying in a pretty decent hotel and every single worker is not from England. About 50% of interactions at food places and such are with people native to other lands as well.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Same thing here.


----------



## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

mas360 said:


> I don't understand the relation between immigrants and the EU exit.
> Is there any LEGAL/CONTRACTUAL requirement in EU that Britain must allow Muslim immigration, which is circumvented only if Britain leaves the EU ?
> 
> It appears that the decision to leave simply because Britain no longer wants other weaker economies....such as Greece...to continue to make a living off her tits.
> The EU was formed to counterbalance the threat of Soviet domination. That is no longer critical today to justify staying in the EU. In addition, when and if the shooting starts Germany is likely the only one with backbone to face up to Putin anyway.


It's not about muslims. Before the current refugee crisis, they were already mumbling about the number of poles, czechs, and others from Eastern Europe that had come to the UK after 2004. Immigration in general was a factor in people voting leave.


----------



## Lee T (Jun 15, 2016)

goatchze said:


> It's not about muslims. Before the current refugee crisis, they were already mumbling about the number of poles, czechs, and others from Eastern Europe that had come to the UK after 2004. Immigration in general was a factor in people voting leave.


I wouldn't call them racist but Brits favor Brits. They have loyalty.
A novel cause that went out the door in USA years back. Typically they will not stab their Neighbor in the back for a buck or two and smile at them.

The ones I have known kind of like Americans a bit.

Just my experience. I am not trying to generalize at all. We all are different and all have values and deficits.

I cannot get hold of anyone there currently. I suspect big parties going on.


----------



## 8seconds (Sep 20, 2005)

Lee T said:


> Why not hire Oil and Gas experienced? New one on me.


http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=1948042

Here's a few choice quotes



> I got 172 resumes of all these pros in 3d cad in multiple platforms. I hired a guy fresh out of school because I know 171 of them will go back to their old jobs as soon as oil hits $80/bbl





> I receive resumes daily. When I see oil field related jobs on resume, I will not consider them for the job.
> They made too much previously, and they will bail on my co. as soon as they are offered more money again.





> > Not all of us who have been affected by the downturn are looking to return. Long hours, rotating shifts, time away from home don't really pay all that well in the long term relatively speaking.
> 
> 
> it is hard to imagine someone being happy long term with the pay cut required at my co. vs. the oil business


----------



## KEN KERLEY (Nov 13, 2006)

We're having troubles of our own - which Hillery can worsten. GB can take care of themselves. We need to start making some hard decisions about the USAnot worrying about GB.


----------



## Leo (May 21, 2004)

I sure don't know the long term effects but it cost a lot of people a lot of money today


----------



## Highflier (Jun 22, 2006)

mas360 said:


> I don't understand the relation between immigrants and the EU exit.
> Is there any LEGAL/CONTRACTUAL requirement in EU that Britain must allow Muslim immigration, which is circumvented only if Britain leaves the EU ?
> 
> It appears that the decision to leave simply because Britain no longer wants other weaker economies....such as Greece...to continue to make a living off her tits.
> The EU was formed to counterbalance the threat of Soviet domination. That is no longer critical today to justify staying in the EU. In addition, when and if the shooting starts Germany is likely the only one with backbone to face up to Putin anyway.


Yes, immigration was a very big Brexit issue, very big.
The EU set immigration policies that all member countries had to abide by.

http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/who...-why-are-there-eu-rules-and-national-rules_en


----------



## Knot Kidding (Jan 7, 2009)

Highflier said:


> Yes, immigration was a very big Brexit issue, very big.
> The EU set immigration policies that all member countries had to abide by.
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/who...-why-are-there-eu-rules-and-national-rules_en


Sounds familiar! The Donald may have something here.:flag:


----------



## fishingcacher (Mar 29, 2008)

Leo said:


> I sure don't know the long term effects but it cost a lot of people a lot of money today


Just remember for every buyer there was a seller. I bet someone made some money.


----------



## Gottagofishin (Dec 17, 2005)

SeaOx 230C said:


> It's amazing to me how many people will give up there freedom and sovereignty for economic gain or security. And coming from people in Texas it is even more concerning.
> 
> Our founders warned us about that, good for the Brits in acting on it.
> 
> ...


Your premise is a bit off. History has shown repeatedly that freedom and economic prosperity are inextricably linked.

Our founding fathers were well aware of this and tried to bake that into our Constitution.

Brexit is a choice about the future. Whether it was a wise choice or a short sighted one is yet to be seen.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## fishingcacher (Mar 29, 2008)

Leo said:


> I sure don't know the long term effects but it cost a lot of people a lot of money today


Just remember for every buyer there was a seller. I bet someone made some money.


----------



## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

fishingcacher said:


> Just remember for every buyer there was a seller. I bet someone made some money.


Only if you are either a prophet or an insider who had info on the vote and had shorted the market the day before.....:rotfl:


----------



## Gottagofishin (Dec 17, 2005)

mas360 said:


> Only if you are either a prophet or an insider who had info on the vote and had shorted the market the day before.....:rotfl:


Nope. It's about hedging your portfolio. The smart money has been hedging with US Treasuries and dollar futures for several weeks now.


----------



## Lee T (Jun 15, 2016)

American media reports it was a Surprise.
I am sure other foreign sources report similar of course.

Maybe not such a surprise to the British people.

I have always been surprised Britain ever went along with EU malarchy as it is so against tradition that they treasure so.


----------



## freespool (Oct 1, 2005)

Headline on vote day. It switched late.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

"Texit is in the air"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fr...-for-texas-secession-after-eu-vote/ar-AAhBJsh


----------



## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

ChuChu said:


> "Texit is in the air"
> 
> That means crossing the Red River into Oklahoma requires a visa......oh no....:rotfl::rotfl:


----------



## piratelight (May 2, 2008)

I'm good with going against Soros and Rothschild. Im pretty sure that what's good for them is probably not good for my poor ***. Maybe they'll have a little less to pump into our election. 


Sent from my ayePhone using Tapatalk


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

I can see both sides of the debate, remain or leave. Now that the vote is leave, it will take a while, years, to get it done and the market shocks will stabilize much more quickly. GB will still trade with the EU member states. 

The EU might be in trouble as an ongoing concern. It always seemed and seems a little Orwellian "Animal Farm" with some of the animals being more equal than the others. I guess I'm more comfortable with a set of individual nations with seperate identities, histories, and culture than the group think increasingly imposed by the EU. 

You might be able to say all those competing nations in Europe led to bad stuff like wars, colonialism, etc. but competing European nations also blossomed to huge leaps in knowledge, science, industry, medicine. The Europe of the last 500 years gave us the modern world. And they built that on the ideas bequeathed to them from Greece and Rome. Asia was mainly feudal during that period. Japan caught up with the contact with Europe and USA. The Middle East was the train wreck that has become or is Islam. America was European and other refugees making an even better way. 

Maybe the EU was or is Europe's next great thing. A great new order for the next 500 years. Maybe these are just growing pains. The USA certainly went through them at our founding. The EU just feels different. The whole Remain crowd really just pushed the fear that leaving was worse than staying. The never made the case of how great the EU is because there really isn't a lot of evidence that the a EU is great or ever will be great.


----------



## ChasingReds (Jul 31, 2009)

What absolutely astounds me from either side of the debate is that there was no path forward or plan on should the vote go to leave the EU. The UK had the best of both worlds and was never fully committed to being in Europe, but now they are to leave there's no plan on what to do next. The 2 parties are in turmoil and this uncertainty is what's driving the downturn in the markets that are part of the global economy.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

ChasingReds said:


> What absolutely astounds me from either side of the debate is that there was no path forward or plan on should the vote go to leave the EU. The UK had the best of both worlds and was never fully committed to being in Europe, but now they are to leave there's no plan on what to do next. The 2 parties are in turmoil and this uncertainty is what's driving the downturn in the markets that are part of the global economy.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


The EU has said that they want the UK out as soon as possible. It stands to reason that to control the threat of contagion they are going to make it as rough on the UK as possible.

So I fully expect this will haunt the international markets for months to come.


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

ChasingReds said:


> What absolutely astounds me from either side of the debate is that there was no path forward or plan on should the vote go to leave the EU. The UK had the best of both worlds and was never fully committed to being in Europe, but now they are to leave there's no plan on what to do next. The 2 parties are in turmoil and this uncertainty is what's driving the downturn in the markets that are part of the global economy.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


I believe the markets will quickly bounce back. They always move to safe havens on uncertainties but once they realize the sky really isn't falling over Brexit they will act "normal" again. Boris Johnson is a student of Churchill and has been a steadying presence before, during, and now after Brexit vote. I think he and others have a better plan than roll up the draw bridge on fortress England. He has said as much.


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Its Catchy said:


> The EU has said that they want the UK out as soon as possible. It stands to reason that to control the threat of contagion they are going to make it as rough on the UK as possible.
> 
> So I fully expect this will haunt the international markets for months to come.


It might cause market disruptions. I think any effort on the EU to punish GB will backfire. There is still money to be made whether GB is in the EU or not. There is a minimum 2 year divorce period contained in the EU charter. Boris Johnson, the PM heir apparent, has said the GB should be in no rush and the EU parliament never does anything in a hurry.

So many people in Europe see the EU really not representing what is best for themselves, their nation, or their culture. Until the EU governing body can effectively deal with that, then these breakaway efforts will fester.


----------



## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

Its Catchy said:


> The EU has said that they want the UK out as soon as possible. It stands to reason that to control the threat of contagion they are going to make it as rough on the UK as possible.
> 
> So I fully expect this will haunt the international markets for months to come.


The late, late news 'talking heads' last night seemed to believe the process of cutting UK loose would take at least two years....

Also..they said there was a referendum afoot amongst those who wanted 'out'..to have a 'do over' vote on the whole idea. Said they already had something like two million signatures on the idea.. "Day After Blues", I guess.


----------



## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

*â€˜Remainâ€™ Caught Cheating: 25k Signatures From NKorea, 2,800 From Antarctic*


----------



## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

karstopo said:


> I can see both sides of the debate, remain or leave. Now that the vote is leave, it will take a while, years, to get it done and the market shocks will stabilize much more quickly. GB will still trade with the EU member states.
> 
> The EU might be in trouble as an ongoing concern. It always seemed and seems a little Orwellian "Animal Farm" with some of the animals being more equal than the others. *I guess I'm more comfortable with a set of individual nations with seperate identities, histories, and culture than the group think increasingly imposed by the EU. *


That is great if Putin is not in the equation. If Europe is not united, Putin will be able to expand his empire without facing a united economic/military resistance.


----------



## yakfisher (Jul 23, 2005)

mas360 said:


> That is great if Putin is not in the equation. If Europe is not united, Putin will be able to expand his empire without facing a united economic/military resistance.


Putin wouldnt get any resistance from EU even if britain stayed...eu has no real defense (other than the US) and will clearly bow to anyone. Honestly a russian invasion as bad it would be might save europe from a far worse fate


----------



## 8seconds (Sep 20, 2005)

Tortuga said:


> The late, late news 'talking heads' last night seemed to believe the process of cutting UK loose would take at least two years....


http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html



> * Article 50 *
> 
> 1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
> 
> ...


Once they give official notice, the clock starts ticking.


----------



## Last Drift (Jun 30, 2009)

It will all get even crazier when Obama takes over as the UN Chief, which is what is being rumored.


----------



## fishingcacher (Mar 29, 2008)

Last Drift said:


> It will all get even crazier when Obama takes over as the UN Chief, which is what is being rumored.


But no one listens to the UN.


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

mas360 said:


> That is great if Putin is not in the equation. If Europe is not united, Putin will be able to expand his empire without facing a united economic/military resistance.


I believe NATO handles the defense of Europe. Separate deal from the EU. Been around longer. Brexit doesn't affect NATO.


----------



## Warlock1 (Jun 17, 2016)

karstopo said:


> I believe NATO handles the defense of Europe. Separate deal from the EU. Been around longer. Brexit doesn't affect NATO.


This correct NATO has non EU members like the U.S.A. and others...then again its time to end that as well....or at least other members pay their fair share....


----------



## bjones2571 (May 2, 2007)

Last Drift said:


> It will all get even crazier when Obama takes over as the UN Chief, which is what is being rumored.


Lol. Rumored by whom?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Newbomb Turk (Sep 16, 2005)

karstopo said:


> It might cause market disruptions. I think any effort on the EU to punish GB will backfire. There is still money to be made whether GB is in the EU or not. There is a minimum 2 year divorce period contained in the EU charter. Boris Johnson, the PM heir apparent, has said the GB should be in no rush and the EU parliament never does anything in a hurry.
> 
> So many people in Europe see the EU really not representing what is best for themselves, their nation, or their culture. Until the EU governing body can effectively deal with that, then these breakaway efforts will fester.


Yeah, makes you wonder how the Brits managed without the EU for the previous 1,750 years....


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

Warlock1 said:


> This correct NATO has non EU members like the U.S.A. and others...then again its time to end that as well....or at least other members pay their fair share....


But it's a lot easier to pay for social programs when the USA is handling the check for the bulk of your defense.


----------



## karstopo (Jun 29, 2009)

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-peasant-revolt-upends-britains-ruling-elite-1466806496

Another perspective on Brexit


----------

