# Drag Racing science and tech talk.



## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Being that a Drag Racing thread gets filled up so fast and so time consuming to find the tech stuff, I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread just for tech stuff without the fluff.

Ive been thinking about how my car was geared Sunday. I was running 18/87. Thats a final drive of 4.83-1. Thats alot higher than GMS recommends. I borrowed a 16 tooth pinion from AC which comes out to a final drive of 5.4375-1 which is still high according to GMS but withen range. Funny thing is, my car felt quicker with the higher gear ratio. Its really hard to predict how one motor reacts to another when it comes to gearing. So I decided to calculate my roll out.

with the 18t- 1.62496

16t- 1.444409

Then I realized I dont know what Im shooting for. lol

Also, AC and I talked about half track speed. If I remember correctly, topped out at half track for the electric cars?


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*If I'm correct on my rollout.*

I used AC's calculation for rollout and here are my finals.

((td(2") X 3.14 = 6.28) / (spur/pinion) 75/14 = 5.357 )) = 1.172 rollout

that was my first run. I then went to a 15 tooth pinion. resulting in a 1.256 rollout.

How did I do AC?


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

where can i order parts for a Bolink Rail,i checked Bolink web-site but all they have is sprint cars and some other type,but not drag or rails?

i am dyine to get this rail going.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Bigmax said:


> I used AC's calculation for rollout and here are my finals.
> 
> ((td(2") X 3.14 = 6.28) / (spur/pinion) 75/14 = 5.357 )) = 1.172 rollout
> 
> ...


Theres a really good roll out calculator on RCDrags.com.

This is whats confusing me bro. I know your motors, and you NEVER have slow motors. You were running a 10x2 like I was, but I was running some old 3k sport pack batteries that I dont even know if all 6 cells are good. My gearing and roll out was alot higher than yours, but my car was faster. But according to GMS, Im way overgeared and when I geared down, the car felt slower.

Thats what prompted me to calculate my roll out. The thing is, I have no idea what its supposed to be. I know in offroad it should be around 0. Negative for more punch etc. But without a gear reduction cuz we have no tranny, thats impossible.

I might head out Sunday and try everything from an 18 to a 25T pinion. lol


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*rail bolink*



insaneracin2003 said:


> where can i order parts for a Bolink Rail,i checked Bolink web-site but all they have is sprint cars and some other type,but not drag or rails?
> 
> i am dyine to get this rail going.


What do you need bud? I'm getting my FC together doing it thru my extra parts and looking at yours. Ie, Brake...


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*WE need AC to elaborate on my calcs.*



Gary said:


> Theres a really good roll out calculator on RCDrags.com.
> 
> This is whats confusing me bro. I know your motors, and you NEVER have slow motors. You were running a 10x2 like I was, but I was running some old 3k sport pack batteries that I dont even know if all 6 cells are good. My gearing and roll out was alot higher than yours, but my car was faster. But according to GMS, Im way overgeared and when I geared down, the car felt slower.
> 
> ...


I was going by a calc that I got from AC at the Worlds. If I'm correct or remember right, he said to get close to 1.2 in final rollout.

That's what I had Sunday.

Useing the one on RC drags I could get to those numbers. That's what confused me I think.

It's fun working it out though.


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Rollout*



Bigmax said:


> I was going by a calc that I got from AC at the Worlds. If I'm correct or remember right, he said to get close to 1.2 in final rollout.
> 
> That's what I had Sunday.
> 
> ...


Bigmax,
You posted a group of rollout calculators some time back. That was good in that it worked for both direct drive cars and cars with a transmission or a gear reduction in addition to pinion/spur.

What should a rollout be for your class? Best to ask that question on the IMDRA forum. The rollout I have on my rail now -1.70 - came from Paul Campbell of Walbern asking a couple of the fast electric rail guys at the worlds. They won't tell you exactly, but they'll put you in the ballpark.

Hope this helps.


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

Bigmax said:


> What do you need bud? I'm getting my FC together doing it thru my extra parts and looking at yours. Ie, Brake...


I am thinking mainly hubs and a rear axle,actually my rear axle can work but i need hubs for sure.


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*we need to compare.*



insaneracin2003 said:


> I am thinking mainly hubs and a rear axle,actually my rear axle can work but i need hubs for sure.


I'm thinking the hubs are all alike. I have a legends that have hubs like the FC I think. Now I'm going to have to go out in the garage and check. If so I'll bring my FC chassis Saturday so we can compare.


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

Bigmax said:


> I'm thinking the hubs are all alike. I have a legends that have hubs like the FC I think. Now I'm going to have to go out in the garage and check. If so I'll bring my FC chassis Saturday so we can compare.


I was looking at the GMS parts and I think those will even work too - not 100% sure, but it could work. Take a look at those on-line at GMS.

PD2


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Rollout*

After I made the rollout comment I went to rcdrags.com and ran that one. It came it with the same numbers I did with a calculator. It's all good. Just to find what end rusult I need is the ?? First try wasn't bad though.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

I had a feeling we were under geared biggy.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Just now cleaning up my car and found out something about drag racing. Its a good idea to check ALL your screws after every run. LOL


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Oops?*



Gary said:


> I had a feeling we were under geared biggy.


Hey Biff,
You may have gotten a 15t from me instead of a 16t.

I was doing one of my favorite things in the shop today (not!), counting pinion teeth on my 48 pitchers. Turns out there was a 16t on the 15t post. I'm thinking you got a 15t instead of a 16t. A senior moment.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

AHR43 said:


> Hey Biff,
> You may have gotten a 15t from me instead of a 16t.
> 
> I was doing one of my favorite things in the shop today (not!), counting pinion teeth on my 48 pitchers. Turns out there was a 16t on the 15t post. I'm thinking you got a 15t instead of a 16t. A senior moment.


I may of put it back wrong. Next run I think Ill try a 19t right away and see what that does.


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*heh heh*

I have some oval pinions I haven't used in YEARS!!!!!


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

Bigmax said:


> I have some oval pinions I haven't used in YEARS!!!!!


Are they oval due to the age and is there some advantage over them versus round?



PD2


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Lol!!!!*

I dunno. I think they came that way.


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*oval pinions?*



Bigmax said:


> I have some oval pinions I haven't used in YEARS!!!!!


I hope I'm around when you try setting gear lash using those oval pinions. 

The 32pitch gears on my rail-especially the pinion are real heavy. To drop some rotating weight, I tried fitting up a set of 48pitch gears to the rail yesterday. Looks like they'll work O.K. Just need to get some Robinson aluminum 27, 28 and 29 tooth pinions. I sure hope they are stamped with tooth numbers. I REALLY don't like counting pinion teeth. :work: The changeover will have to wait until I verify the PGR I have with the 32p is close to what the rail wants.

Another subject. I was checking timing on both the 10x2 and 8x1 motors yesterday. I going to try adjusting timing by using no-load amp draw. You guys had any experience doing that? The 10x2 wet press is pulling 9.5amps no-load. The 8x1 Cobalt came from LiteSpeed pulling 8.1amps no-load. Jeremy from LiteSpeed says I can go much higher on amp draw, but recommends trying the motor at 8.1amps first. What has been you alls experience?


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Timing??*

I grip it and rip it!


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*You need a transfusion*



Bigmax said:


> I grip it and rip it!


Man, you got dirt tracker blood in your veins. We need to get you a transfusion of good old drag racer blood. :spineyes:

And just so you and Griz know, taking a sprint car to a drag race is like taking a ham sandwich to a Texas BBQ.  Great idea, though. I can hardly wait to see that two-out-of-three match race. The only thing more overpowered than a drag car is a sprint car.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

AHR43 said:


> I hope I'm around when you try setting gear lash using those oval pinions.
> 
> The 32pitch gears on my rail-especially the pinion are real heavy. To drop some rotating weight, I tried fitting up a set of 48pitch gears to the rail yesterday. Looks like they'll work O.K. Just need to get some Robinson aluminum 27, 28 and 29 tooth pinions. I sure hope they are stamped with tooth numbers. I REALLY don't like counting pinion teeth. :work: The changeover will have to wait until I verify the PGR I have with the 32p is close to what the rail wants.
> 
> Another subject. I was checking timing on both the 10x2 and 8x1 motors yesterday. I going to try adjusting timing by using no-load amp draw. You guys had any experience doing that? The 10x2 wet press is pulling 9.5amps no-load. The 8x1 Cobalt came from LiteSpeed pulling 8.1amps no-load. Jeremy from LiteSpeed says I can go much higher on amp draw, but recommends trying the motor at 8.1amps first. What has been you alls experience?


Go with a smaller spur gear AC. The last thing you want to do is add alot rotating mass "Before" the gear reduction. IE, on the motor. Plus, changing spur gears offer "Finer" gear ratio adjustments.

As fas as the motors go when it comes to amp draw and performance? With mod motors I, and maybe Bigmax will agree, I dont think it matters that much. At least in any kind of onroad racing. Stock offroad buggy is another story though. Either one of us can tune a stock motor that will "Trip" a Turbo-30 at 13-14 amps at 5 volts.

I would say add a load, like the fan, twist the end bell and find what you like to hear!


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*I agree*

Amps = torque and speed. Offroad, track condition would dictate how much torque you ant. Drag Racing, With the tire pooky used traction is not an issue. Keeping the front wheels on the graound would be tho.

My Opinion. Ain't got Cents/sense.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Bigmax said:


> Amps = torque and speed. Offroad, track condition would dictate how much torque you ant. Drag Racing, With the tire pooky used traction is not an issue. Keeping the front wheels on the graound would be tho.
> 
> My Opinion. Ain't got Cents/sense.


This is going to be archived bro! :slimer:


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Dang It!*



Gary said:


> This is going to be archived bro! :slimer:


I am going to have to start reading before I submit!!!!


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

They say Drag Racing can put a hurtin on comms. I belive it.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

This is something yall may have never seen before. A "V" brush motor turned into a stand up brush design using an old D4 end bell. 

The reason for the conversion is simple. For one, its my newest motor with the very strong magnets. The arm is the only hand wound arm I have, and its also a 10x2 which would be my strongest motor.

Why did I change from a V brush to a standard stand up brush?

Lack of spring selection. Unequal brush face tension on the comm. Sloppy brush hoods etc.

With the old style end bell and stand up brushes, I had to turn down the timing a full 2 marks compared to the V brush design. I started with purple springs and ended up with soft silver springs, and tweaked at that! 

Theres just something about brushed motors and tuning them that I love. I guess its the bench tuner in me that likes to make my own HP by cutting comms and tuning motors for power. When the day comes when all we run is brushless and Lipos, Im done racing! Or Im running Nitro!


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Vintage Drag Racing Class*

Hey Biff,
When everyone else is running brushless, you and I'll be in the vintage "brushed" class. 

Not to worry. The world drag record at 98mph is still held by a brushed motor.

Yea, you'll get to know your comm lathe real well drag racing electrics.

I'm getting a NEO magnet motor can for the rail. Those cans make some power - even the 2magnet like I'm getting. I'll probably end up buying a RAE arm too. With the NEO magnets regular arms come apart at the higher RPM. My race budget can't do the stretch to a NEO 6magnet RAE motor yet.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Oh, Ive been drooling on the RAE site! :slimer:

My next car will be super gas which you can only run ferrite mag motors. Thats cool, it keeps the cost down. After that, Pro Stock neo 8x1 with 8 cells babY!


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*What's my duty here?*

I have printed the class specs , put them in a binder. Now I need to be more informed on the details of each. Don't remember reading about specs on motors just # of cells???? I'll have to look again later. Big day on possible sale. Cross fingers for me.


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*My fingers are crossed for you - good luck*



Bigmax said:


> I have printed the class specs , put them in a binder. Now I need to be more informed on the details of each. Don't remember reading about specs on motors just # of cells???? I'll have to look again later. Big day on possible sale. Cross fingers for me.


Hi Bigmax,
Are you using IMDRA class specs?

motor = electric
engine = gas (nitro in our case)
That is the industry standard. However, the terms are used interchangeably and generically by many.

For purposes of IMDRA rules in the Top Fuel Electric Rail and Top Fuel Funny Car (Electric Rules - it's a combined class): a BRUSHLESS (BL) motor is accepted as a "rare earth magnet based motor".

BTW - For 2007, IMDRA is re-wording its references to electric motors so they explicity define the type motor allowed.

RE: motors. Ferrite = industrial grade iron magnets; Cobalt = see below; NEO = see below

Here is a cut and paste from a IEDA posting by Bob Boling, former IEDA pres.

*" Neodymium *-Iron-Boron *(NdFeB) *and Samarium *Cobalt (SmCo) *are Rare earth magnets composed of alloys of the Lanthanide group of elements. 

*Neodymium Iron Boron (NdFeB) *magnets, of the Rare Earth class, have been commercially available since the mid -1980's. These magnets are prone to corrosion in humid environments . For this, liquid epoxy, dry epoxy, nickel plating, zinc plating, and combinations of these coatings may be used as a protective measure. Neodymium magnets are the strongest of the rare earth magnets and are the strongest permanent magnets available. BUT Neodymium magnets are sensitive to heat. If a magnet heated above its maximum operating temperature (175°F (80°C) for standard N grades) the magnet will permanently lose a fraction of its magnetic strength 

*Samarium Cobalt (SmCo) *magnets are available in a number of different grades that span a wide range of properties. SmCo is extremely brittle, and highly prone to chipping and cracking. Special machining techniques, involving diamond-grinding techniques, must be used to machine this material. SmCo magnets can operate at temperatures up to 350C , depending upon the grade and permeance coefficient. The corrosion resistance of SmCo is considered good and do not generally require any special coatings.
_________________
Worlds Quickest Electric Dragster 
1.54 @ 86.3mph "
[Ref: Bob Boling, cut-and-paste by //AC// 10/29/2006]


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Alrighty Then!*

Yes, I am using the IMDRA Specs. I will update when they are. BUT! Tell me where to go deeper into motor specs for each class. If I know RC Racng there will always be someone that has the One motor that will blow the doors off everyone else. Rules are needed or should I say limits?


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

Bigmax said:


> Yes, I am using the IMDRA Specs. I will update when they are. BUT! Tell me where to go deeper into motor specs for each class. If I know RC Racng there will always be someone that has the One motor that will blow the doors off everyone else. Rules are needed or should I say limits?


If I'm not mistaken you can call a motor if you believe it is dominating the field due to some advantageous engineering, but the motor can only be given up by the individual once the race is over for the day. I think that was the general rule, right?

PD2


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Pat McDonald - IMDRA Super Gas Record Holder*

Hey guys,
'member me talking about Pat McDonald and his Super Gas cars? Rainman posted some images - scroll down to the big guy with the pony tail and red shirt. That's Pat and his pit at the worlds. You get a good look at the RAE '57 Chevy roadster, and a peek at his chassis.

http://imdra.forumup.org/viewtopic.php?t=421&mforum=imdra


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Pulllll the Leeever...*



Bigmax said:


> Yes, I am using the IMDRA Specs. I will update when they are. BUT! Tell me where to go deeper into motor specs for each class. If I know RC Racng there will always be someone that has the One motor that will blow the doors off everyone else. Rules are needed or should I say limits?


Hey Bigmax,

Motors are open within the basic class specs. Turns and winds are up to the builder. That's the beauty of RC drag racing. It's all about E.T. and Speed. BL is looking like it could dominate, but there are other factors besides motors to consider.

Here is a quote I pulled from the IMDRA Forum by Pat McDonald:

" The only way to limit the performance increases in electric classes is to impose strict limitations on new cell technologies and ban brushless motors...... most definitely not a good way to draw new participants..... JMHO







"

My recommendation would be to hold off on limits for now and see how classes develop w/in HAMDRL.


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Okie Dokie*

Ac, That's what I was thinking too. We'll do more teching later. Let's concentrate on building the crowd for now. I already have growing pains. Oh, No that's just my soar muscles from the weekend.


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

Bigmax said:


> Ac, That's what I was thinking too. We'll do more teching later. Let's concentrate on building the crowd for now. I already have growing pains. Oh, No that's just my soar muscles from the weekend.


yeah,that is what you get for woopin up on everyone....


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

insaneracin2003 said:


> yeah,that is what you get for woopin up on everyone....


Got yer back Paul! He doesnt whup _everyone!_ :slimer:


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

Gary said:


> Got yer back Paul! He doesnt whup _everyone!_ :slimer:


hahahaha...my battery false peaked....that is my story and i am sticking to it!!!


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

AHR43 said:


> Hey Bigmax,
> 
> Motors are open within the basic class specs. Turns and winds are up to the builder. That's the beauty of RC drag racing. It's all about E.T. and Speed. BL is looking like it could dominate, but there are other factors besides motors to consider.
> 
> ...


Thats makes sence. At this point we arnt bound a 100% by IMDRA rules and should stay open to all newcomers right now. Im for that. How do we play this though. Case by case for safety reasons?


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

can anyone that is running an electric rail,snap a pic of your layout? ie: electronics set-up,battery loc,stuff like that. I am trying to get my electric rail set-up but i think i have to cinfigure a battery set-up. I just need ideas. thanks guys......Paul


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

insaneracin2003 said:


> can anyone that is running an electric rail,snap a pic of your layout? ie: electronics set-up,battery loc,stuff like that. I am trying to get my electric rail set-up but i think i have to cinfigure a battery set-up. I just need ideas. thanks guys......Paul


Hey Paul,
Go here, scroll down to the overhead shot of the rail. http://imdra.forumup.org/viewtopic.php?t=210&mforum=imdra

Hope this helps. //AC//


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*More Tech Questions.*

Who else out there in RC Drag Racing land has experienced motor fitting issues? On a bolink the space to contact the flywheel with the bump start is so small I have hit the spur and rubbed a flat spot in it. Being I need to replace the front bearing in that nitro start .12 I had the grandure (sp) idea to swap it out with an O.S. .18TZ I had sitting around. Rear exhaust. Fit good BUT now need more axel spacers to spread the tires out a little further AND the exhaust pipe rubs the left rear tire!!!! Any thoughts or advise? I do have an couple of O.S. .12s but they have a rotary carb and I have this setup for a slide. Have no extra slides around though. Change linkage is something I'll work on. I can only spread the rear tires out just so much before I run out of axel. not to say that I have width rule limitations and appearance issues too.

AIN'T THIS FUN!!!!


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Bigmax said:


> Who else out there in RC Drag Racing land has experienced motor fitting issues? On a bolink the space to contact the flywheel with the bump start is so small I have hit the spur and rubbed a flat spot in it. Being I need to replace the front bearing in that nitro start .12 I had the grandure (sp) idea to swap it out with an O.S. .18TZ I had sitting around. Rear exhaust. Fit good BUT now need more axel spacers to spread the tires out a little further AND the exhaust pipe rubs the left rear tire!!!! Any thoughts or advise? I do have an couple of O.S. .12s but they have a rotary carb and I have this setup for a slide. Have no extra slides around though. Change linkage is something I'll work on. I can only spread the rear tires out just so much before I run out of axel. not to say that I have width rule limitations and appearance issues too.
> 
> AIN'T THIS FUN!!!!


I got axle spacers. You want plastic or aluminum?


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

AHR43 said:


> Hey Paul,
> Go here, scroll down to the overhead shot of the rail. http://imdra.forumup.org/viewtopic.php?t=210&mforum=imdra
> 
> Hope this helps. //AC//


That pic won't come up......thanks AH. does anyone have anything else?


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*k,*

Plastic seems to be smoother.

Insane, It came up for me. Basically they are toward the back in a stick. You can do it!


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## Ronborsk (Jan 28, 2006)

Well, since I can only dream about this I watched most of the 06 Winter Nationals again.

Pull a leever for me.


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

Ronborsk said:


> Well, since I can only dream about this I watched most of the 06 Winter Nationals again.
> 
> Pull a leever for me.


you ARE alive....WOW...welcome Ron


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

FigBax. 1/4" axle? And I need lengths.


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Uh oh!*

FFib! I just stopped by Ace hardware (shhh) don't tell Randy and picked up a 4' length of 1/4 inch alluminum. AC told me to look for the # (I forget but would recognize if I saw it) tough stuff.

Do you have some of that?


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Bigmax said:


> FFib! I just stopped by Ace hardware (shhh) don't tell Randy and picked up a 4' length of 1/4 inch alluminum. AC told me to look for the # (I forget but would recognize if I saw it) tough stuff.
> 
> Do you have some of that?


I have premolded phenolics with chamfered edges to only touch the inner bearing races. I need the length you need!


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Man, you can make lots of axles now*



Bigmax said:


> FFib! I just stopped by Ace hardware (shhh) don't tell Randy and picked up a 4' length of 1/4 inch alluminum. AC told me to look for the # (I forget but would recognize if I saw it) tough stuff.
> 
> Do you have some of that?


Yea, ACE Hardware in Cypress is a good supplemental source to the LHS.

6061-T651 aluminum rod. Mostly, it sells as 6061-T6 anymore. Nobody but the aricraft industry cares about the "651" designation.


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

this is my dilemma,how to get these batteries,speed control and receiver in the tiny lil area.notice how the batteries are cocked to the right because they do not fit between the body posts.sorry for the poor pic quilty.any suggestions


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Update! Update!!*

1/4" is too big. I had my suspisions when I saw AC mic them with his calipers and saw .24.

Think I straighten out my old axel for now. Had a O.S. .18 CVR with side exhaust sitting in my sprint. Now it's in my FUNNYCAR!

Break setup is almost complete. 12:41 in the morning and going back out for one last test.

I will get the length then.

Insane, try side by side stick or are the batteries wider that way? put some uprights the separated the size of on battery. The stand the stick up on it side.


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

The other thing is to go with those 2/3A batteries and stack them up toward the rear or on their ends, as Biggie is saying. I say one rail on Inside R/C's coverage of the SoCal Drag race and that guy had two rows of 2/3A cells stacked on their ends down the length of the chassis.

Another thing is you may need to ditch the ESC and go with the slam switch and use that instead. Snag a micro servo and a 25A switch and you will be in business.

PD2


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*oops...*



Bigmax said:


> 1/4" is too big. I had my suspisions when I saw AC mic them with his calipers and saw .24.
> 
> Think I straighten out my old axel for now. Had a O.S. .18 CVR with side exhaust sitting in my sprint. Now it's in my FUNNYCAR!
> 
> ...


Lyn, my bad on the 1/4" rod. Sorry. Ask Biff to turn it down in his lathe for you - that will make it lighter too. Or, you could chuck up a length in your drill press and turn down the od with a sandpaper strip. Time consuming, but I've done that. I've run into a mix of USS/SAE and Metric on my rail as well. Frustrating. I am probably looking at the same problem trying to fabricate a 3/16" aluminum shaft for my front drive pulley. The steel one in there now calipers out slightly larger than 3/16". I'll have to do a trial fit before I know for sure. There are special bearings available with a metric o.d. and US i.d. - or other way around. Both Mr Speed (Bill) and Jeff Schmidt in SA have used them. That's a PITA though. I'll ask them who their supplier is next time I go to SA.


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*No worries.*

The challenge of fitting a square peg in a round hole it's part of the fun in this here hobby we have. Making old school faster than new school. YEA BABY!!!!


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## insaneracin2003 (Feb 22, 2006)

Bigmax said:


> The challenge of fitting a square peg in a round hole it's part of the fun in this here hobby we have. Making old school faster than new school. YEA BABY!!!!


biggie,I hear that you have a funnycar with a body you like in your possesion,any chance i will get it this weekend or are you gonna hols a ransom on it for me?


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*uhhhhhh????*

I like the body cause I don't have one yet. heh heh.... Anyway, yep, it's yours SATURDAY NIGHT!!!! Now to get your ARS out to show me the way down the track!


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

Hehehehehe - I told Paul that you were really diggin the body on the car and that he better get the car from you before you decided it looked better on your setup. LOL!! Of course I told him you would not do that, but that it is going to cost him a run or two for helping us out. HAHAHA!!

Thanks again for helping out with the transaction Biggie! Really appreciate it bro!

PD2


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Update on metric aluminum rod and tubing*



AHR43 said:


> Lyn, my bad on the 1/4" rod. Sorry. Ask Biff to turn it down in his lathe for you - that will make it lighter too. Or, you could chuck up a length in your drill press and turn down the od with a sandpaper strip. Time consuming, but I've done that. I've run into a mix of USS/SAE and Metric on my rail as well. Frustrating. I am probably looking at the same problem trying to fabricate a 3/16" aluminum shaft for my front drive pulley. The steel one in there now calipers out slightly larger than 3/16". I'll have to do a trial fit before I know for sure. There are special bearings available with a metric o.d. and US i.d. - or other way around. Both Mr Speed (Bill) and Jeff Schmidt in SA have used them. That's a PITA though. I'll ask them who their supplier is next time I go to SA.


Hey Lyn and all,

K&S is the primary supplier of hobby rod and tubing in the U.S.

I Emailed K&S Engineering asking about availability of aircraft quality metric aluminum rod and tubing. They don't make it, don't forsee making it in the future, and cannot recommend an alternate vendor that may supply it.

I am now energized to find such a product. Once I do, Lyn, I'll order up a 1/4" metric equivalent (0.024") and cut a shaft to your specs.


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*A man with a mission.*

You da man AC.

Insane stand them on their sides.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

*Evil, Wicked, Mean and Nasty!*

This is the Trinity D6 Super Gas 6 Cell Drag Motor
This is the same motor used to Mark Sonzgoni to reset all the records
in 1/10th Pro 6 cell electric drag racing.

FEATURES: Handwound D6 "skewed" armature for more power
Special 8 turn multi wire for maximum acceleration and power
Torque ring to maximize the magnetic field and reduce flux leakage
Epoxy balanced armature, diamond trued commutator
Silver soldered commutator tabs for lower resistance
P-94 dual shunt pro brushes carry more current
Up to 4 times longer brush life over standard sized brushes
EPIC binary 2.four, 4 magnet system for more power
3 hard wired surface mount capacitors
Dual ball bearings
Motor is tweaked and dyno tuned and ready to win
Brush heatsinks

INCLUDES: One Trinity D6 Super Gas 6C Drag Motor

REQUIRES: Motor leads and connector of your choice
Assembly into model following original kit manual
Pinion gear of your choice

SPECS: Length: 2.22" (56mm) (not including the motor shaft)
Can diameter: 1.47 " (37.28mm)
Shaft diameter: 1/8"


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*RE: Evil, Wicked, Mean and Nasty!*

Yo, Trinity is making it again! It went 'unobtanium' for a while. Cool beans! If you think you want to run super gas, this is the brushed motor that will get 'er done...//AC//


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

I allmost ordered one. I decided to upgrade the Drag Spec insted Being that the stock motor mount is plastic and the motor will loosen up, I ordered the aluminum mount. And you can never have enough rear tires. lol


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## PD2 (Jul 1, 2005)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Trinity-1503-D6-Pro-Super-6C-Drag-Race-Motor_W0QQitemZ140035229336QQihZ004QQcategoryZ34063QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Here ya go! Order away!

PD2


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## ddcarter3 (Jan 1, 2005)

*http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXHPD2&P=WR*

Tower has it for 64.99


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*2 Magnet can in the house*

I got a RAE NEO (2 Magnet) drag can in the mail Friday. http://www.randersonengineering.com/Motor%20Battery.htm

I'll start by fitting my 10x2 D6 flat wire arm and D6 endbell to it. If that doesn't give me the numbers I'm looking for, I'll install the 8x1 Yoko arm.

But first, I'll establish baseline numbers running the 8x1 in its Litespeed "Epic Shock w/Yoko arm" motor on 8cells. I've got enough 2200 2/3 subC cells to build two 10cell packs. Now that I have a NEO magnet can, the 10cell option goes into the mix. Plenty of combos to find the rails "sweet spot". I also want to try using a torque sleeve on the motor can(s). Have to see what the 6ft times look like.

Oh, and I've got a set of Walbern 1 1/2" front wheels coming. That will drop the front end and give the rail body's lower lip a little more 'attack angle' for downforce.

Less than 5 months to the IMDRA Georgia Longhorn Nationals south of Atlanta. For me - that's not much time to put together a consistent 2.00sec rail.

Have fun today guys.


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Heeeeeey!!!!!*

Don't make me do it! I'm looking for more motor too. GRUNT!

1, 2 OH and now 3 hotrods to my stable!!!!! If I could be so successful in my real estate! Thank you again David PRATHER!!!!!

Pics to come later yall. Do have some bidness to take care of this afternoon and to mom-in-laws this eveing.

I'M PUMPED!!!!!


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*24vdc Power Supply*

Hey Guys,
My power supply got here today.

http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=15080+PS

This will provide the "push" (e.g. voltage) to my Tekin BC112A charger to peak both the 8cell and 10cell packs for the rail.
//AC//


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## slash (Sep 18, 2006)

*Sweet !!!!!!*

Nice unit, AC. But, can it make toast?:rotfl: I may have to get you to plug into a dedicated circuit at the track so that you don't suck the juice from all the other racers !!!!!!!! LOL! Looks awesome! I may have to look into that unit. Keep me posted on how it performs!

Kip


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Cool!*

That should do the trick!!!

More Power! ARG!


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Power Supply Update*



AHR43 said:


> Hey Guys,
> My power supply got here today.
> 
> http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=15080+PS
> ...


Hey gang,
I sent that charger back and got a refund. Within a week the output dropped from 24vdc to 17vdc. Still enough output to charge a 10cell pack, but I suspected complete failure of the PS was coming, and mpja has a 10day return policy.

At first I was going to get a replacement. But thinking about it, I still couldn't charge LiPo's. So I put the refund money and some more plastic together and got a MRC Super Brain 989. Seems like a good charger so far.

So anyway, mpja has lots of power supplies if you're looking for one. They have a good return policy and are agreeable to work with. I probably got the only bad one in the lot. But at the end of the day, all worked out O.K.
//AC//


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Tuning in regards to timing.

What I mean is, no two motors are ever the same and when you add in other variances like magnet position, brush hood alignment and uncertanties in the actual timing marks, I think just setting the timing to zero can be pretty far off from the optimum settings. Maybe Bigmax can help us here since he is one of the best motor tuners around. Better than me and Im good!  And he has a dyno! 

This is my secret and I wish I still had my T30, but I hope after 13 years I think I can still tune a motor by feel and my ear. Allthough all those years can be tossed out the window since were not running offroad but this is my plan. For bracket racing I assume you would want the lowest amp draw possible under a load. That saves the comm and the brushes and creates less heat than a motor thats set up "Hot". That should create consistancy not only from run to run but also during the run. Thats gonna be real tuff to do without a dyno or even a way to read amp draw so Im going to go by feel.

My plan: Cut the comm. While breaking in the motor with a fan and the end bell loose enough to rotate it at 2v, Ill break it in for a few minutes at the highest RPM I find at that timing. Then Ill try maybe 4v and play with the brush springs by adding or taking away spring force to the brushes and see what happenes. Its pretty well known that stronger springs adds torque, but also adds to a higher amp draw which may not be a good idea for bracket racing. In heads up, yes!

After I tweek the springs like I want, then I go back to the timing and Ill be looking for the most RPMs, (Maybe) and the least amount of "Jerkiness" in the motor. Then Ill tweak the springs one more time. This is really hard to explain via a keyboard and I probably shouldnt of tried. LOL Its a touchy feely thing the way I tune motors and really hard to explain, but the proof is in the pudding. Youll never see me or Bigmax with slow motors. There is no majic in numbers or anything set in stone IMO. Its all feel!!!


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## slash (Sep 18, 2006)

*Here's my secret.....*

Promise you won't tell anybody?

I don't know..........

Oh, well.........

Here we go.

I gear my motors as the come from the factory or builder. They are at their most efficient setting out of the box. Now, you play with gearing and tire diameter to compensate a weak launch or lack of top end charge. That's where the timing system comes in handy. You get to compare 6', 1/2 track and overall et times, noting what was changed and how the car was effected. I don't change springs or brushes, as the builder put this motor together the way they did for a reason. I haven't seen major arching issues (except when running more than 10 cells, but that's to be expected when your hitting soft copper with over 150 amps then slamming on the brakes!) That's just me and the way I do things. Drop Roy Anderson a line. He's one of the best at electric drag racing and could give you the a definitive answer. www.randersonengineering.com. Also, you can talk to Darron and his brother Dean when they come to the race this weekend. They know a thing or two about this sort of thing.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Good point slash. When a motor is new, mod motors only, all I do is break it in and run it like the factory guys set it up. When I ran for Trinity I was lucky enough to get motors set up by Jim Dieter and I never questioned his tuning. However, after a few comm cuts and new brushes its a whole new ball game especially if you change style of brushes.

What Ill be running tomarrow is totally weird. This is the story. I have been using an Orion Revolution 10x2 that I had from my touring car. Thats one of those V brush design motors and I dont like them. Not that theres anything wrong with the motor, I just dont know how to tweak them. What I did was take a standard endbell off a Trinity D4 and went to a regular stand up brush design. That gave me more tuning options that I knew how to do. Thats what I have been running and blowing over with.

Then I picked up that Trinity Drag motor with a 8x4, P94 brushes and a torque ring. The problem with that motor is its just too much power for the Drag Spec car. Being that tomarrow is my very first Drag race and were running bracket class, and seeing the size of that trophy, (lol) I got serious! 

The Orion motor has magnets that are way stronger than the Trinity can. What I did was put the 10x2 arm in the Trinity can to "mellow" out the power band and hopefully get consistant runs with power the car can handle. Im hoping the larger brush design with the P94s will allow me to run all day without cutting the comm. (Im thinking I can get by with using a comm stick to clean up any "brush hop") BTW, theres no timing marks on the Trinity can since it doesnt have a sticker on it showing me where Im at. I did it by ear and feel.

I think itll be ok but if its not fast enough, I put the 8 quad arm in the Orion can. :spineyes:

I also set up a 21x2 as a back up just in case everything is too fast. I dont want to do that though. 4 seconds will bore me.

I trued my tires just now for the first time and that can easily be done on the bench. 80 grit sandpaper, a flat block and a set of calipers to measure tire diameter! I did it while running the car. I had a bad case of coning!


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

I need rear tire help. I cant make it through a full day without trashing my tires. im currently running *T.M.RC. softs.*


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## ddcarter3 (Jan 1, 2005)

I think my tires are Bolink Fasttracker Like a Dura 40????
Whatever they are, they last.
I am almost as fast as Biff. That Spec Car is FFFFFFAAAAAAASSSSSTTTTT!!!
Maybe that is why you can't keep tires on it. You burn them off!


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*here too.*

My speeds haven't gotten to Biffs but my tires are still holding together. The soft ones on the rail and the Bolink Spec tires.

I will be trying taller ones by others once the funds come together again.


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## slash (Sep 18, 2006)

*Donut woes.................*

Hey Biff. In watching your car run and seeing your tires, my quess is in the shutdown area. I noticed that your tires ripped apart on the outside edges. If your tires were being eatin' up during the run, you would have seen even ripping across the entire tire surface. When your car was braking, it looked like it teetered from side to side, possibly affecting the outer edges. D3's rail danced at the top end just before the shutdown area, even getting about a 1/2 inch of air under the slicks, but his tires held up. That's my guess. I don't think your tires were spinning all the way down the strip.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

The outer edge of the left tire was tore up but the right one chunked right in the middle. Looking at my body, I think the tires are hitting the wheel cut out. Theres no interferance on the bench but maybe at those speeds and bouncing around is causing the tires to hit the sharp lexan.


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## slash (Sep 18, 2006)

*One other thing....*

Check and see if there is any glue on the hub. If I'm not mistaken, I don't remember seeing any foam stuck on the rim where the tire came off. With drag racing, every single little spot on the hub needs to have glue! If there is, might just be a bad batch of foam.


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## slash (Sep 18, 2006)

*You know it.....*

Yeah, I bet your right. It's a shame, because you can't look between the rim and the foam when you purchase your tires! You never know what's there (or not!) Drag racing is a different beast and the high rpm's generated by these cars requires a little more beef in certain areas. If you're ever at the line when a nitro Top Fuel car is staging, stay off to the side. From time to time, you'll see someone exploed a tire, just clearing out the engine. It's quite the sight!


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Battery Tech*

Hey guys and gals, racers and bashers,
How about some discussion on LiPo, LiMn and Li-ion batteries for RC drag racing cars?

We at HAMDRL are looking at allowing the use of non-conventional batteries at our local club events. At present, they are only allowed in IMDRA Extreme Unlimited class as a motor power source. HAMDRL has published the HRIP No. 3, titled Battery Classification for Competiton Year 2007. This is a draft document and provides for type approval of batteries used as a motor power source.

We' like to hear your input and experience from whatever venue you are using your non-conventional batteries in. This will aid HAMDRL in making an informed decision in which non-Conv batteries to type approve, and which need further research.

FWIW-D3 has been running a hard case LiPo, and has competed in locally and in SA without any adverse safety issues. At present, all hard case LiPos are type approved for use in any HAMDRL class or event. However, we as a local org must defer to national rules of IMDRA and NOT use LiPos in any IMDRA event, or event using IMDRA rules. I tried going to the RODS website to see what their restrictions on the use of non-Conv batteries are, but it's not coming up.

FWIW - I've got a 7.4v 3800 MaH LiMN in the mail to me to check out during HAMDRL TNT sessions. Type approval will be on a case-by-case trial basis. So, any help you alls can provide will be an immense help. Thanks.
//AC//


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Unlike other forms of racing, in Drag Racing batteries are *NOT *that big of a deal. You only need one pack and they dont need to be matched and all that fancy stuff. For example. Im running some IB 3600s I bought from maxamps as loose cells. They were $6.99 per cell. My last run was a 2.27 @ 56.3 MPH and Im only running a 10x2 for a motor. I may be able to get to 2.0 or below if I ran my 8x4. To be honest though, Im not ready to go that fast yet. I need more experiance yet but it shows that it doesnt take alot of money to race Drag Racing.

If theres any new guys out there thinking about getting into racing but am afraid of the cost, follow our advice and you can be racing with us for about $600 if you want to buy all new stuff that will be very competative.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Oh, BTW! Eh eh eh eh :slimer:

Back to my motor tuning suggestions...

Was it fast? LOL!   :spineyes:


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## slash (Sep 18, 2006)

*LiPo incident #1......*

We had a LiPo pack swell up at the track after an on-track incident yesterday. Needless to say, that pack will not see the light of a race track again! The car was involved in a wall-tag and then a series of barrel rolls. There was no smoke or flame, but it was noted by the driver that the pack was not of normal origin! I'll try and get more of that battery's specifications from the driver when I see him again. FYI.


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*RE: LiPo Incident*



slash said:


> We had a LiPo pack swell up at the track after an on-track incident yesterday. Needless to say, that pack will not see the light of a race track again! The car was involved in a wall-tag and then a series of barrel rolls. There was no smoke or flame, but it was noted by the driver that the pack was not of normal origin! I'll try and get more of that battery's specifications from the driver when I see him again. FYI.


Slash,
Yes, please pass along pertinent info. HAMDRL will input that into its spreadsheet.
"...pack was not of normal origin!". ???

Thanks.
//AC//


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

It went "Thermo-nuklier" LOL


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*heh heh*

try hitting a steel gerder full open and see what NiCad and NiMh do. Sizzle, smoke CITY!!!


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## ddcarter3 (Jan 1, 2005)

Bigmax said:


> try hitting a steel gerder full open and see what NiCad and NiMh do. Sizzle, smoke CITY!!!


My point exactly! Abuse anything and it will cause problems!
Howabout brushless? I will try that next T&T!


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Are we gonna run IMDRA rules, or do yall want to do something different?


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

Gary said:


> Are we gonna run IMDRA rules, or do yall want to do something different?


I understood it was SAMDRL Rules as a quideline for HAMDRL TNT and Gorilla Events....?

That is one reason we as a club are trying to type batteries, so that we have the flexibilty as a non-sanctioned club to work with emerging technology.

BL are allowed in IMDRA. They are typed as rare earth magnet motors. I see no reason for not allowing them in HAMDRL. They too, like non-conventional battery technology, are emerging technology. We as a club need to embrace emerging technology and not get fenced in by old technology.

Shucks, I'd like to see M.O. show up with one of the CD (Capicator Discharge) drag motors he was working with. Which reminds me, how about we expand the HAMDRL class listing to include an "Exhibition Class"? This is a class for experimental drag vehicles that don't fit easily into conventional classes.

To date, I have only seen one vehicle I'd be inclined to turn away from a HAMDRL TNT, that be the MegaTech LASV.
//AC//


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## slash (Sep 18, 2006)

*Rocket Power.....*

Be wary of the guys that show up with a rocket car for an exhibition class. Most people that built them do not have the first clue as to what they have. They take an old car that's been sitting around and think it would be cool to shove a couple of "D" size Estes motors in it and light them. Problem with these cars is that once they are on, they are on! Brakes do no good to a car that's rocket propelled. I personally have built 2 in the past, and they are a hoot to drive and watch, but I have built numerous cars, airplanes and high powered rockets to understand the unique requirements of these vehicles. I'm NAR certified to handle "I" sized rebuildable motors and have a through understanding of the consequences, should something happen. If someone does decide to show up, you might want to schedule them to come back to the track at an earlier time before others show up or, if it's a light day, have them wait until the end of the event. That way there are fewer bystanders around that could get injured. Safety is of utmost concern. One incident could set you way back. Not to mention any personal liability suits file from a person who was hit by one. Also, you'll need to have someone inspect the car, the proposed engine and all the control gear to make sure it's safe. You don't want someone shoving a G-38-8 Aerotech White Lighting engine in a 1/12 scale pan car. That thing would launch and probably make a couple of laps around the track before it came back down to earth! If your not comfortable with something, trust your gut! It usually knows best. My 2 cents!


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Excellent Advice*



slash said:


> Be wary of the guys that show up with a rocket car for an exhibition class. Most people that built them do not have the first clue as to what they have. They take an old car that's been sitting around and think it would be cool to shove a couple of "D" size Estes motors in it and light them. Problem with these cars is that once they are on, they are on! Brakes do no good to a car that's rocket propelled. I personally have built 2 in the past, and they are a hoot to drive and watch, but I have built numerous cars, airplanes and high powered rockets to understand the unique requirements of these vehicles. I'm NAR certified to handle "I" sized rebuildable motors and have a through understanding of the consequences, should something happen. If someone does decide to show up, you might want to schedule them to come back to the track at an earlier time before others show up or, if it's a light day, have them wait until the end of the event. That way there are fewer bystanders around that could get injured. Safety is of utmost concern. One incident could set you way back. Not to mention any personal liability suits file from a person who was hit by one. Also, you'll need to have someone inspect the car, the proposed engine and all the control gear to make sure it's safe. You don't want someone shoving a G-38-8 Aerotech White Lighting engine in a 1/12 scale pan car. That thing would launch and probably make a couple of laps around the track before it came back down to earth! If your not comfortable with something, trust your gut! It usually knows best. My 2 cents!


For sure. My worst nightmare is having a rocket powered car show to run Exhibition Class. Way back when-yr 2001-what became my bracket Rustler started life as a rocket chassis, complete w/2 "D" motors, with plans to upgrade to "G" motors-highest I could buy w/o NAR Certification. I fit the exhibition profile, right?  I backed off because of the control factor-or lack of control factor-you talk to above. Yea, on second thought, maybe an Exhibition Class is not what HAMDRL is looking for. Thanks, Slash. A reality check from time-to-time is good.
//AC//


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## ddcarter3 (Jan 1, 2005)

All,
I dropped off the Gorilla light, center line rope and minnow net at Randy's Hobbies.
Don't have too much fun without me.
Off to the Great White North.


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Got the Stuff*

Already picked up the light, net and rope.

As far as an exhibition, what about a wheely show type or a car with parachutes deploying and a pull vehickle and trailer set up. Then another thought is a pile of rocks and a crawler demonstation. A mini car show.

Thinking out loud.


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*LiPo Flame Resistant Blanket*

Hey RC drag racers,
I was by Randy's Hobbies earlier today and picked up something I hope I don't ever need. It's a Nomex Flame Resistant Blanket, 12" x 12", designed for the model rocket gang. $6.95. Cheap safety insurance.

I am using it to wrap around my LiPo battery when I charge it. I am not anticipating a "Flame Event", as Apogee refers to it, BUT better safe than sorry. I think I'll make this a pit recommendation in HRIP No. 3, Battery Classification.

Here's the link: https://shop.rocketsbymelissa.com/displayProductDocument.hg?productId=60

//AC//


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Smoked ESC*

Hey Guys,
FYI. Here is a thread I launched on RC Drags:

http://www.rcdrags.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3151

//AC//


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## Bigmax (Jul 21, 2004)

*Hummmm?*

I may be way out in left field. Due to the relitively newness of the Lipos. Might this be another issue now that we have pretty much concluded that charged with the proper equipment and way that Safety is no longer a concern but now frying ESC's are still a mystery?


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

Bigmax said:


> I may be way out in left field. Due to the relitively newness of the Lipos. Might this be another issue now that we have pretty much concluded that charged with the proper equipment and way that Safety is no longer a concern but now frying ESC's are still a mystery?


I cant figure why Lipos would matter to a esc? I dont know!


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## ddcarter3 (Jan 1, 2005)

I think this may be a braking issue. NOT LIPO issue. LiPo's only charge to 8.40 volts max. My NiMh would go over 9 volts.



Gary said:


> I cant figure why Lipos would matter to a esc? I dont know!


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## AHR43 (Aug 21, 2006)

*I think you're on the right track D3*



ddcarter3 said:


> I think this may be a braking issue. NOT LIPO issue. LiPo's only charge to 8.40 volts max. My NiMh would go over 9 volts.


Try fitting two small Schottky diodes in parallel to the motor (+) and (-) terminals?
//AC//


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