# Varget pwd not fitting cases



## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

Bare with me I'm new to reloading have been taking my time on manuals n iTunes vidios on this subject.Im loading for 308 win 1:12 26" SPS Varmint.
Using 150 gr Barnes SST and varget.All was doing well starting at 43.5 gr per manual got to 45 gr and case is full but having trouble seating bullet to 2.810.
What gives I resized and trimmed thank


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Varget came about after my time; is it super slow burning? It sounds like the case is so full that there is no room left to seat the bullet. In general I think more slow powder in a rifle is more accurate than less fast powder, but you do need room to seat the bullet.

PS_ Just looked up and Varget isn't THAT slow, and it looks like you are only trying to seat to normal overall length. Where is powder level in case before you try to seat bullet?


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## al_carl (Jan 20, 2012)

It should fit.

Have you checked the other dimensions? If your shoulder is too low then you could be reducing the volume.


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

Level is below the neck at 45.0 gr but hoping to go to 47 gr I may try n tap them down some this pwd is short extruded


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## Wado (May 15, 2011)

*Case Volume*

look at the far right column in this Nosler Manual. It tells the load density of different powders in Nosler brass. 45 grains is about 96% full. 47 is over 100%. You might use a drop tube or try and tap the case to get the powder lower. If you crunch the powder it will change the burning rate.
http://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/308-winchester/

I have good luck with H4895 and Barnes TTSX


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

al_carl said:


> It should fit.
> 
> Have you checked the other dimensions? If your shoulder is too low then you could be reducing the volume.


Yes sir 2.05-2.10 on case and OAL 2.08-2.16


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## al_carl (Jan 20, 2012)

bubbas kenner said:


> Yes sir 2.05-2.10 on case and OAL 2.08-2.16


I meant the other dimensions 

It should be extremely difficult (nearly impossible) to push the shoulder back too far while resizing with a standard die...but stranger things have happened. Easiest check would be to drop it in a case gauge and make sure it's flush. If it sinks below the mouth of the gauge or pokes out the other end then there's something wrong with the sizing.

But I think Wado nailed it. You will have a compressed load at the upper end of the charge range.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Reaching back since it has been so long, and no insult intended here:
I believe the old standard was the space of a nickel that would fit on top of shell holder on the ram with ram all the way up, and would just touch the bottom of the seater die. Too little space, and you begin trying to crimp the bullet in place, which I doubt you want.


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## Wado (May 15, 2011)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Reaching back since it has been so long, and no insult intended here:
> I believe the old standard was the space of a nickel that would fit on top of shell holder on the ram with ram all the way up, and would just touch the bottom of the seater die. Too little space, and you begin trying to crimp the bullet in place, which I doubt you want.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You might have found the problem. I always back my seat die way off and use Lee Factory Crimp Dies. You can crush the brass if you horse on the handle with it adjusted too tight for a crimp.


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Reaching back since it has been so long, and no insult intended here:
> I believe the old standard was the space of a nickel that would fit on top of shell holder on the ram with ram all the way up, and would just touch the bottom of the seater die. Too little space, and you begin trying to crimp the bullet in place, which I doubt you want.


I have it backed off a turn n a half as per instructions not at the table now but will try tapping the pwd down


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## txbred (May 13, 2013)

if you found out how much jump you're getting at 2.810", you might end up loading to a longer oal. This may help with the volume issue. And it might tighten up your groups too. 

My lands are 2.380" on my Rem 700. 

Hornady sells a tool to measure this: O.A.L. Gauge.


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

Don't have a manual with me to try and find the data with the barnes bullets, but by looking on hodgdonreloading.com it shows 46.5 to be a compressed load with a nosler e-tip, and 47 to be compressed with a nosler ballistic tip. I'm going to go out on a limb, without being able to verify it, that the Barnes bullet is longer seeing as its an all copper bullet. To get the proper OAL with the longer bullet you will sacrifice space inside the brass, probably meaning down around 46gr(and maybe even 45gr) you will be in compressed load territory. As standard, I will say double check your load data against multiple sources. Once you start getting a compressed load, your margin of error shrinks quickly.

It sounds like you are currently working up loads for a specific rifle, I assume that due to you going from 43.5gr up to 45gr. My suggestion is begin with the starting load, and slowly work up from there. You may find that you start seeing pressure signs before you reach a 45+gr load. If you don't and you want to push things further(that's on you) then work up further at .1gr increments. 

I will share something I learned. When I started, I wanted the hottest round possible, I worked right up to those maximum published loads... faster is better right? The majority of my chosen loads now are below published book maximum. On most, I found I got better groups and my velocities were more consistent if I didn't shoot for the maximum. Of 8 different pet loads for specific rifles, only two of them are at or over max. My 65gr 223 performed best at max published load, and I have a 30-06 that is a smidge over published max. More is not always better.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

bubbas kenner said:


> I have it backed off a turn n a half as per instructions not at the table now but will try tapping the pwd down


It doesn't surprise me that you entered into reloading carefully. The turn and a half (14 tpi) should be plenty. I am out of guesses right now.


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

Chase4556 said:


> Don't have a manual with me to try and find the data with the barnes bullets, but by looking on hodgdonreloading.com it shows 46.5 to be a compressed load with a nosler e-tip, and 47 to be compressed with a nosler ballistic tip. I'm going to go out on a limb, without being able to verify it, that the Barnes bullet is longer seeing as its an all copper bullet. To get the proper OAL with the longer bullet you will sacrifice space inside the brass, probably meaning down around 46gr(and maybe even 45gr) you will be in compressed load territory. As standard, I will say double check your load data against multiple sources. Once you start getting a compressed load, your margin of error shrinks quickly.
> 
> It sounds like you are currently working up loads for a specific rifle, I assume that due to you going from 43.5gr up to 45gr. My suggestion is begin with the starting load, and slowly work up from there. You may find that you start seeing pressure signs before you reach a 45+gr load. If you don't and you want to push things further(that's on you) then work up further at .1gr increments.
> 
> I will share something I learned. When I started, I wanted the hottest round possible, I worked right up to those maximum published loads... faster is better right? The majority of my chosen loads now are below published book maximum. On most, I found I got better groups and my velocities were more consistent if I didn't shoot for the maximum. Of 8 different pet loads for specific rifles, only two of them are at or over max. My 65gr 223 performed best at max published load, and I have a 30-06 that is a smidge over published max. More is not always better.


Thanks and yes these Barnes are hot dog long I have others that are not that I will tey


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## Bird (May 10, 2005)

Does your manual list the headstamp of the brass. Some cases are a fair bit heavier than others. Since they all have the same outside dimensions, the difference are the inside dimensions. Try some different brass. Iâ€™m just guessing here.

47grains seems like a lot. If I remember, Iâ€™m loading 42.1 grains of IMR 4895 with Sierra 165 Gamekings.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Chase4556 said:


> Don't have a manual with me to try and find the data with the barnes bullets, but by looking on hodgdonreloading.com it shows 46.5 to be a compressed load with a nosler e-tip, and 47 to be compressed with a nosler ballistic tip. I'm going to go out on a limb, without being able to verify it, that the Barnes bullet is longer seeing as its an all copper bullet. To get the proper OAL with the longer bullet you will sacrifice space inside the brass, probably meaning down around 46gr(and maybe even 45gr) you will be in compressed load territory. As standard, I will say double check your load data against multiple sources. Once you start getting a compressed load, your margin of error shrinks quickly.
> 
> It sounds like you are currently working up loads for a specific rifle, I assume that due to you going from 43.5gr up to 45gr. My suggestion is begin with the starting load, and slowly work up from there. You may find that you start seeing pressure signs before you reach a 45+gr load. If you don't and you want to push things further(that's on you) then work up further at .1gr increments.
> 
> I will share something I learned. When I started, I wanted the hottest round possible, I worked right up to those maximum published loads... faster is better right? The majority of my chosen loads now are below published book maximum. On most, I found I got better groups and my velocities were more consistent if I didn't shoot for the maximum. Of 8 different pet loads for specific rifles, only two of them are at or over max. My 65gr 223 performed best at max published load, and I have a 30-06 that is a smidge over published max. More is not always better.


X2


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

Several issues here. 1- Barnes are historically " long" bullets compared to others . 2- case selection. All the various manufacturers have different capacities - there are pictures out there showing the thinnest to the thickest walled cases and thi WILL affect powder capacity. Do not compress a load too much / it can have a exponential burn change - not in your favor . On the current filled charges you are loading tapping / vibrating case to get powder to settle can help. Try Winchester or nosler brass- they are the thinnest and most uniform brass ( Norma maybe ) and will allow more internal capacity


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Another suggestion. Find someone familiar with reloading and have him (or her) spend some time with you.


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## Bird (May 10, 2005)

CHARLIE said:


> Another suggestion. Find someone familiar with reloading and have him (or her) spend some time with you.


I've been told that Charlie has a lot of spare time on his hands...:biggrin:


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## txbred (May 13, 2013)

Maybe try another powder that isnt extruded. Ive had good results with Ram Tac.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Loaded 30-06 for years with a case full of 4831 and never had problems seating bullets.


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## cva34 (Dec 22, 2008)

mrsh978 said:


> Several issues here. 1- Barnes are historically " long" bullets compared to others . 2- case selection. All the various manufacturers have different capacities - there are pictures out there showing the thinnest to the thickest walled cases and thi WILL affect powder capacity. Do not compress a load too much / it can have a exponential burn change - not in your favor . On the current filled charges you are loading tapping / vibrating case to get powder to settle can help. Try Winchester or nosler brass- they are the thinnest and most uniform brass ( Norma maybe ) and will allow more internal capacity


Got to agree I use Nosler info on case volume when selecting powder/loads..I try to stay on the mostly full (just for eyeball safety check) that way after all powder is loaded I can take a flashlight and look in all cases and see there loaded visably to same level...before I load bullets
Face it you might need to make another Powder Choice...there are a few out there LOL

Just my 2C


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## johnsons1480 (Jun 24, 2016)

Try one of these. It has helped me get more powder into cases in the past without compressing them. Pour slowly.
Forster Blue Ribbon powder funnel with long drop tube


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## chief1008 (Sep 20, 2011)

You have quality equipment and are wise to be checking your powder load by weight. You haven't said what your objective is. Max speed loads and accuracy aren't always at the same end of the powder loads in the books. My go-to reference book is Nosler and the fall back and double check book is Hornady. Nosler data shows the *most accurate and **compressed loads and they are usually at opposite ends. When I work up a load it's in .5 grain increases. Keep an eye on your primers for extreme pressure signs, and take note of extraction difficulty. 

It has been a long time since I worked up loads for .308 and mine are time proven and chipped in stone. 168 grain Hornady A-max and Nosler C/C's in front of IMR 4895. I'll leave the powder weights out but will say it is closer to the less powder end of the Nosler load data. I can shoot these loads out to 600 with my 1in12 bbl accurately and without punishing recoil. I have occasionally tried something new like the long Berger "jewelery" bullets (I love the way they look when you open a fresh box) and Varget or Reloader powder, but always go back to my proven loads. Seating depth (bullet jump) and case neck tension on the bullet has often had more effect on my load accuracy than powder weight variation. 168's let me load long with a short jump and still have plenty of bullet contact in the case neck. You can buy a gage or make one with an empty case and bullet.

good luck, and be safe.


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

chief1008 said:


> You have quality equipment and are wise to be checking your powder load by weight. You haven't said what your objective is. Max speed loads and accuracy aren't always at the same end of the powder loads in the books. My go-to reference book is Nosler and the fall back and double check book is Hornady. Nosler data shows the *most accurate and **compressed loads and they are usually at opposite ends. When I work up a load it's in .5 grain increases. Keep an eye on your primers for extreme pressure signs, and take note of extraction difficulty.
> 
> It has been a long time since I worked up loads for .308 and mine are time proven and chipped in stone. 168 grain Hornady A-max and Nosler C/C's in front of IMR 4895. I'll leave the powder weights out but will say it is closer to the less powder end of the Nosler load data. I can shoot these loads out to 600 with my 1in12 bbl accurately and without punishing recoil. I have occasionally tried something new like the long Berger "jewelery" bullets (I love the way they look when you open a fresh box) and Varget or Reloader powder, but always go back to my proven loads. Seating depth (bullet jump) and case neck tension on the bullet has often had more effect on my load accuracy than powder weight variation. 168's let me load long with a short jump and still have plenty of bullet contact in the case neck. You can buy a gage or make one with an empty case and bullet.
> 
> good luck, and be safe.


Thanks great info my objective is increase accuracy with a hunting round for now
thanks for all the info greatly appreciated will update as I progress


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## txbred (May 13, 2013)

I handload for hunting with my Rem 700 SPS and have had pretty accurate loads with the Sierra Game King 165 gr. Im using Tac powder and its got me under 1 moa which is good enough for up to about 200 yards with confidence. Ive been using Hornady match brass. I weigh all of my bullets and load identical weights for a batch. For just a fun round to hit targets, ive been using Sierra Match Kings 168 gr. If i go thru all the steps for best accuracy, im also weighing my sized and trimmed brass and use identical weights. It may be overkill, but heck im just spending my time having fun. It does take longer this way but ive had a few 5 shot .120" - .180" groups @ 100yds. I try not to have coffee that morning if im testing my handloads!

all of my powder loads are usually right in the middle of the recommended "starting grain" to the "never exceed grain". You might find more than one accuracy node if you start at the low end. I had one at 39.9 gr and also 42.1 gr. But for velocity i worked on the latter. The standard deviation was better.


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

txbred said:


> I handload for hunting with my Rem 700 SPS and have had pretty accurate loads with the Sierra Game King 165 gr.


Those 165gr sierra gameking hpbt are one of my favorite bullets. They seem to shoot amazingly well in just about every rifle I have loaded them for. They are my go-to bullet for any hunting load. Straight nasty on deer and pigs.


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## txbred (May 13, 2013)

They definitely do the job! I had to track one deer about 50 ft once. Others just drop where they are. The expansion is good and on a heart shot its devastating.


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## THA (Jan 5, 2016)

All this is super good info and pay attention. Reloading is not something to guess at or really just take somebody's private load data. On most powders, start in middle of recommended load chart and work up. Most likely you will find your best load and accuracy is just above mid load but each gun and load is different. Most importantly, learn to read for high pressures, what the primer looks like, is it really flat and is firing pin indentation cratered? Watch out for hot loads, does the bolt seem a little hard to open? All these things can hurt you if not careful.

There are some powders that will actually create more pressure if loaded low. WW 296 for handguns is one. 

Learn how to read pressure signs.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I think he is down too far with his die and crushing the case. Powder should crush without any problems


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## txbred (May 13, 2013)

Bubbas kenner, what brass are you using? 

I just weighed 3 pieces of brass i have and i got the following (all @ 2.005")

Hornady Match 154.3 gr
Lake City 177.5 gr
Lapua 308 (7.62) 173.6 gr

Obviously the heavier ones have less internal volume. Im not sure how much powder weight is equivalent to 20 grains of brass, but if your brass is 7.62 and not 308 Win that could be the issue. I could be wrong, and welcome anyone correcting me here. Just trying to help you out.


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

txbred said:


> Bubbas kenner, what brass are you using?
> 
> I just weighed 3 pieces of brass i have and i got the following (all @ 2.005")
> 
> ...


Resized to 2.06-2.10
Once fired federal match kings by me which was 168 gr thanks have bout 200 of em


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

bubbas kenner said:


> Resized to 2.06-2.10
> Once fired federal match kings by me which was 168 gr thanks have bout 200 of em


Be care full with that federal brass. Ive had my fair share pull the rim off during sizing and then you get to deal with a stuck case in the sizing die.


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## johnsons1480 (Jun 24, 2016)

muney pit said:


> Be care full with that federal brass. Ive had my fair share pull the rim off during sizing and then you get to deal with a stuck case in the sizing die.


Iâ€™ve loaded thousands of once fired federal brass, itâ€™s good stuff. I would pick it over any other non-premium case, and have never had any problems with it.


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

johnsons1480 said:


> Iâ€™ve loaded thousands of once fired federal brass, itâ€™s good stuff. I would pick it over any other non-premium case, and have never had any problems with it.


The 308 win brass? I've never had any issues with the 223 stuff or any other caliber but ive got a handful in the scrap bin that got stuck and had to be tapped to pull out. I'll go dig in that bin and find them to get a head stamp. I dont mess with them anymore because of these issues. If i had other cases stick id think it was my case lube but the FC cases are the only ones that would rip.


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## johnsons1480 (Jun 24, 2016)

muney pit said:


> The 308 win brass? I've never had any issues with the 223 stuff or any other caliber but ive got a handful in the scrap bin that got stuck and had to be tapped to pull out. I'll go dig in that bin and find them to get a head stamp. I dont mess with them anymore because of these issues. If i had other cases stick id think it was my case lube but the FC cases are the only ones that would rip.


No 308, just 270, 243, and 223. I use Lapua brass in my 308. The only cases Iâ€™ve ever stuck were Remington brass, but it was 100% my fault. Just starting out with not enough case lube. I would think if 308 is a problem 243 would be too since thatâ€™s the parent case.


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## muney pit (Mar 24, 2014)

johnsons1480 said:


> No 308, just 270, 243, and 223. I use Lapua brass in my 308. The only cases Iâ€™ve ever stuck were Remington brass, but it was 100% my fault. Just starting out with not enough case lube. I would think if 308 is a problem 243 would be too since thatâ€™s the parent case.


Not sure, f.c. is known to be soft and ive sure found out the hard way by sticking them in the die. I mostly do 308 but never had any 223 f.c. stick or even feel as soft as the 308 stuff. I know some guys reload them for 1x or 2x but i just dont bother with'em anymore. Pics as promised


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