# Example of a "Hard spot"



## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

Normally only a few large sows on each spot but sometimes many spots in
one area. With these hyper reproductive Sows missing just a few in the count can be millions in future generations. Rik


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## Leemo (Nov 16, 2006)

depending on what the wattage of the transducer, looks like clay to me, different trans. and machines skew different images., what ducer do you have?


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

Leemo said:


> depending on what the wattage of the transducer, looks like clay to me, different trans. and machines skew different images., what ducer do you have?


This was a 1000 watt airmar in hull transducer. Rik


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## Angler 1 (Apr 27, 2005)

Dang Rik, 

That one is sure in shallow water. Most hard spots don't show up that well even on a 1000 watt machine. Alot of them do not have that little dip in the middle either.


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## Prawn Broker (Oct 22, 2009)

Rsnap,

One thing that I have always argued with fisheries management is the abundance of "Sows". And your bottom machine points out one of my arguments. There are a few big misconceptions by "managers" that 1st, very few sows exist, 2nd, that they are in deep water, you machine is only reading 15 fathoms, relatively shallow.

As a kid and young man working summers on shrimp trawlers in the 80's we were allowed to keep and sell any finfish we caught, either in trawls, or threw hook and line. When we were fishing inshore, 10-15 fa, on the "mud flats" we would catch 10 or so sows on a 20 day trip in the trawls. I would get my father to anchor over "hard bottom" so that I could fish during the day. On average on one of those 20 day trips, I would bring in 1200-1500 pounds of snapper, grouper, ling, and chickens. Offshore, I would add various tuna to the mix. This all ended in 1989 when the reef fish management plan took that outlet away from shrimp trawler crews. Starting then, a non-licensed boat could not have any more than a rec. day limit on board, and many just did not op to get licenses and let it go. 

Rather than start a fury with this, what I am trying to point out is, 1st, I do not believe the impact of "retainage" and selling of finfish was properly accounted for in the preliminary models on Snapper. Secondly, with the adoption in 1989 of TED regulations, we all but see the catch of these Sows on the flats disappear from trawls. If a guy with any sense happens to take more that a passing glance at a TED they will quickly come to realize that it may be quite difficult for a 20 lb fish to make it passed that grid. This is critical as neither the shrimp fishery, nor the directed fishery got credit for those fish not being harvested, as a matter of fact they went the other way in saying they did not even exist.

If both of these would have been properly addressed, I believe that the overall abundance would have been shown to be much higher from the start and there would have never been an issue with snapper.


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## Shredded Evidence (Jun 25, 2007)

I need a lesson in sonar...... can you explain what I am looking at and how I know what I am looking at is what I think it is?

BTW, I ride the short bus to work so I am allowed to ask these types of questions. I think.


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

Angler 1 said:


> Dang Rik,
> 
> That one is sure in shallow water. Most hard spots don't show up that well even on a 1000 watt machine. Alot of them do not have that little dip in the middle either.


You are right Eugine! I wanted to post a hard spot with more features than most because as you know not too many guys know this art.
Just wanted to point out how easy to miss they can be if you don`t 
know what to look for. Most are deeper and some only show the down slash under the bottom line with no ditch and sometimes no bait or fish mark. Sometimes a tournment can be won on just such a mark. I posted this on a new thread because on my other thread is getting so long.
All in an effort to show an example of how NMF is grossly undercounting
Red Snapper.
Here we have examples of hard bottom areas inshore of the East Breaks.
27 50 336 27 50 865 27 49 821
095 46 089 095 47 187 095 46 918
You may not mark anything on your Sounder, but if you send down baits
you will probally catch Snapper. Also not counted by NMF. Does that mean they don`t exist? Try for yourself when you can - then decide!
What a joke - NMF never proves what they say! Rik


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

Shredded Evidence said:


> I need a lesson in sonar...... can you explain what I am looking at and how I know what I am looking at is what I think it is?
> 
> I will try. Without circles and arrows it is a little tougher.
> This is a non typical mark, featuring a small ditch, some
> ...


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## Hotrod (Oct 11, 2006)

Shredded Evidence said:


> I need a lesson in sonar...... can you explain what I am looking at and how I know what I am looking at is what I think it is?
> 
> BTW, I ride the short bus to work so I am allowed to ask these types of questions. I think.


Hire Mr Rsnap for a trip or two and you will learn how to read that stuff there. Took me a while also. Circle hardspot, circle ontop prolly sow snapps or group.


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## Eastern Tackle (Oct 28, 2008)

Awesome post Rsnap. Its good to share stuff like this.


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## hog (May 17, 2006)

Eastern Tackle said:


> Awesome post Rsnap. Its good to share stuff like this.


Yep!!!


It sure is...
:dance:

Thanks Rik,,
:brew:

U DA MAN!!
 :bounce:​The "_I dont have any smileys to post on my work computer_" Hog​


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

OK, so why is there a black vertical line ... just that the radar echo bounces back faster or something? Obviously, you're not reading the ground 15-20 feet below the bottom, right?


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Swells said:


> OK, so why is there a black vertical line ... just that the radar echo bounces back faster or something? Obviously, you're not reading the ground 15-20 feet below the bottom, right?


Its measuring the strength of the return signal. A soft bottom dissipates the beam.


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## mredman1 (Feb 4, 2007)

*Rik's Eagle Eye*

I personally have seen Rik identify new productive spots while travelling at 30 knots.

Mike


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

Swells said:


> OK, so why is there a black vertical line ... just that the radar echo bounces back faster or something? Obviously, you're not reading the ground 15-20 feet below the bottom, right?


The mark you are talking about is the "hard spot itself" and it is surrounded by softer bottom. I got that mark to look more pronounced
by almost stopping right on it. As Eugine said lots of them show even
less. Furuno is probally king of Sounders. Only a Raymarine C or E120
is close on h/s marks. The norrow beam 200khz. transducer recives a
different signal returen as bottom densety changes. Takes a well tuned
Sounder and a trained eye. Most h/s are about boat size or smaller.
Rik


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

Thanks for the plug, Jimmy and Mike! I will publish some h/s readings in 2010 from
different ports. Once you locate a h/s there are almost surely more in that area.
Most have Sow Snapper but some may hold Grouper. The Grouper are almost 
always Warsaw. Some have no fish. Rik


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Thanks Rik, you the man!

Can I ask one more question? I was thinking that "hard bottom" might be larger than just a postage stamp on the ground. I mean, that looked puny, a few feet across. Somehow, I had envisioned had bottom to sometimes a bit larger in size. Seems like a narrow target to hit there ... correct me if I am wrong. -sammie


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## hog (May 17, 2006)

Rsnap said:


> Thanks for the plug, Jimmy and Mike! Some have no fish. Rik


Ur Welcome,

You for got a species on HS = some are solid sharks :headknock :fish:


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## ding-a-ling (Jul 29, 2005)

*question*

Rik,
Great post and good information. What exactly are the hard spots? I've spent alot of time diving and see lots of featureless sand. Are these areas of thicker sediment or hard mud surrounded by sand? Just wondering. 
Also, in your experience are they spread equally throughout the Gulf off TX or more common off of one area like Galveston, mid coast, or PtA south. Thanks.


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*Here`s the thing*



Swells said:


> Thanks Rik, you the man!
> 
> Can I ask one more question? I was thinking that "hard bottom" might be larger than just a postage stamp on the ground. I mean, that looked puny, a few feet across. Somehow, I had envisioned had bottom to sometimes a bit larger in size. Seems like a narrow target to hit there ... correct me if I am wrong. -sammie


No Sammie, you are right. Hers the thing! A "Hard spot" is different from hard bottom. Hard spots are small and there are different kinds. The ones with big Sows and Grouper are pretty much in the flats. Mostly close to extended rocky areas but several hunderd yards from the rocks and up to about three miles. Let me say at this point some Snapper will move up to three miles on a full moon. Most hard spots are what is left of the outer rim coral of a rocky area after being mowed by Shrimpers. Some stand alone h/s may be all that is left of an old wk., someones attempt to build a reef or my favorite, metal garbage in a shipping lane. Most Hard bottom areas are much larger than h/s. They can be hard to see on the Sounder.
Most of those hard bottom areas that hold fish are in about 200 ft. or deeper. I find them because i know what areas to look in and certain times of the year they have enough fish bunched up in one spot to mark. 
Com. boats used to find them from a difference in the audio ping of a Sonar. Hard bottom has a different sound. Snapper have a sound all their own. So do porpose. Metal wks. also have a different sound. Hard bottom
can hold good numbers of fish but h/s only a few large Sows. Some hard bottom holds small fish and other can hold pretty good size. You can drift a long way on hard bottom and stay in fish but must center up right over a h/s to catch a fish. Rik


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## mredman1 (Feb 4, 2007)

*Grouper Hard Spots*

Rik,

Could we then assume that a hard spot that holds Grouper could be called a "G-spot"???



Rsnap said:


> The mark you are talking about is the "hard spot itself" and it is surrounded by softer bottom. I got that mark to look more pronounced
> by almost stopping right on it. Rik
> 
> Once you locate a h/s there are almost surely more in that area.
> ...


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## Prawn Broker (Oct 22, 2009)

One way to "bottom proof" is to take a large lead weight and coat it with GP grease, or vasoline(while weight is dry) and drop it down. What ever sticks to the weight will give a clue as to what you're on.

I had done it a few times back in the day to check the big SiTEx-Honda paper machines we had when we would "aquire" a small patch of Hard bottom.

It works.


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

ding-a-ling said:


> Rik,
> Great post and good information. What exactly are the hard spots? I've spent alot of time diving and see lots of featureless sand. Are these areas of thicker sediment or hard mud surrounded by sand? Just wondering.
> Also, in your experience are they spread equally throughout the Gulf off TX or more common off of one area like Galveston, mid coast, or PtA south. Thanks.


Thanks! Divers have said some are harder clay and those Snapper seem to waller out the ditches themselves. I belive these are the ones that do not show as well. Some are small areas of harder bottom with a some coral. They are all surrounded by softer bottom and mostly mud. More
h/s offshore of Galveston and more Hard bottom as you move south along the coast. You seldom see a h/s like looking mark in rocks but lots of wrecks have a h/s like mark or two sometimes close to the apex. Rik


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*"G"*



mredman said:


> Rik,
> 
> Could we then assume that a hard spot that holds Grouper could be called a "G-spot"???


I like that Mike! You have coined a new term! Rik


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## hippyfisher (Mar 24, 2009)

Thanks for the great info. But i'm still a little confused. So why do they hold fish? I mean why does a sow want to hang around a h/s? Is there bait there?


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

hippyfisher said:


> Thanks for the great info. But i'm still a little confused. So why do they hold fish? I mean why does a sow want to hang around a h/s? Is there bait there?


Thanks for asking a great question! So far I have been talking about things that I know for sure. They hold fish because most of the GOM is pretty much flat and featureless. Anything that offers shelter and some bait is the draw. From here is my own theory as I try to "Be the Snapper".
I belive these breeder sows are away from the rocks a ways so the hatchlings will not be eaten by other reef fish including other Snapper and to not be disturbed. I look at Rocks and wrecks as more like very populated urban areas with larger structure & more city like. I belive h/s
are more rural like areas and I look at the h/s itself as like a very small 
country home or shack. Breeder Snapper are in the country to try and
raise their kids to a certain size till they swim off together in search of
a home. The close places will probally be where they settle. 
Rik


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## hog (May 17, 2006)

Heres a little over 900 hard spot only GPS markings and where they are approximated out of Freeport.

I put in the names of some of the areas near them so you could visualize the general areas they can be found..


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## Cody C (May 15, 2009)

This is probably one of the best learning posts I have ever read! These kind of posts are what forums should be like, helping each other not bashing!

thanks guys!


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## whos your daddy (Jun 2, 2004)

*Snapper and Hard Spots*

I have several spots out of Matgorda that when fished the snapper still have some clay deposits on thier skin and gill area from them bedding down in the clay. Alot of the spots when approaching do not mark fish until we make our first drop. Then the next drift the screen is lit up with fish so dont be discouraged if you do not mark fish on a spot, drop down anyway and you may be surprised. Rik is right on the hard spots. Not usually alot of snapper, but some big ones. We have spots that are our go to spots when we target big snapper and we have no problem catching 20 lb plus snapper off of them, but they are not hit until we really need a big one. Went here 2 times this past season. One was a 26 pounder and the other was a 24 pounder. With 3 good friends that are commercial snapper fisherman and the spots we share , I can tell you as all of us well know, there are no shortage of red snapper in our area. Even my commercial friends say that they havent see it like this in many years. I like these posts like this. I am fortunate to know alot about snapper fishing from my friends, but there are alot of folks here that benefit from these posts. Thanks Rik for your informative post.

Mark


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*Great post Jimmy*



hog said:


> Heres a little over 900 hard spot only GPS markings and where they are approximated out of Freeport.
> 
> I put in the names of some of the areas near them so you could visualize the general areas they can be found..
> 
> ...


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## Eastern Tackle (Oct 28, 2008)

Check this out 




These are local guys that dive out of Wilmington, NC. But at the 5:30 mark, there is some low relief hard bottom. Its not exactly the clay stuff, but there are a lot of little patches that like here. They get covered and uncovered all the time.


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## hog (May 17, 2006)

This is a great thread!!


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

I've learned a lot too.

Question for y'all - we pretty much know the rigs, reefs, and wrecks, but do we have a good handle on the number of H/S places off Texas? 

This goes back to the discussion of how to survey the red snapper, using grids and random stuff. So if you have thousands of these H/S places and they're not counted, the overall red snapper population could be severely under-counted, especially in the larger "sow" sizes (your breeding reproducer stock, too). Rik I think you made this point too, and Hog showed a list of about 900 right off Freeport!

Think about it, in terms of fish poundage, one 20-pound sow is worth ten small chickens. Since the H/S seem to come and go, and can even be created by shrimp trawling, I'm a little uncertain how to survey these kinds of boogers. 

By the way, I did a little research and sometimes these H/S aren't just naked clay, but can have certain kinds of seaweeds, and if there's any rock, even small corals. Have to be careful, many use the term H/S to mean anything besides sandy-mud flats, though.

Lemme know whatcha think...
sammie


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

Swells said:


> I've learned a lot too.
> 
> Question for y'all - we pretty much know the rigs, reefs, and wrecks, but do we have a good handle on the number of H/S places off Texas?
> 
> ...


Well Sammie, heres my idea! We know NMF are not counting h/s or hard bottom now. My survay would include everything known. I am sure there is a science to put a % on what we do not know but suspect. I would have to let someone else do the math. On the other hand then it becomes theory and subject to cast doubt. My main point is that NMF is undercounting and overprotecting Red Snapper. My survay would look at everything known including Rigs and anything holding Snapper. Knowing
NMF is way low I would expect mind boggeling # from my survay. As mentioned previous studies looked at samples areas on a grid. The reason this is not accurate is that one grid is not equal to another. Truth to the
old fishermans statement: 95% of the fish are caught in 5% of the water!
Rik


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Rsnap said:


> Well Sammie, heres my idea! We know NMF are not counting h/s or hard bottom now. My survay would include everything known. I am sure there is a science to put a % on what we do not know but suspect. I would have to let someone else do the math. On the other hand then it becomes theory and subject to cast doubt. My main point is that NMF is undercounting and overprotecting Red Snapper. My survay would look at everything known including Rigs and anything holding Snapper. Knowing
> NMF is way low I would expect mind boggeling # from my survay. As mentioned previous studies looked at samples areas on a grid. The reason this is not accurate is that one grid is not equal to another. Truth to the
> old fishermans statement: 95% of the fish are caught in 5% of the water!
> Rik


I see your point, but there must be over 10,000 reefs, rigs, wrecks, banks, and hard spots out there in the northern Gulf -- don't you think that's a little too much to sample? There are ways to set up a database to even say if a certain place is good, fair, or poor fishing, too.

Plus, my understanding is that red snapper are so common you could spent 10 years just counting them all. We went fishing out by some numbers off SPI called AJ1 and AJ2, with a wreck in between, and there were snapper schooling over nothing ... just flat bottom. It was freaky, like a huge complex and the fish were like 100 yards away from any numbers.

I think you had the same experience driving around offshore of Mansfield and SPI, "new" numbers more than you can shake a stick at. The idea is simply to get a method that is representative of the fish.

Come on, NMFS hardly does any actually surveying and bases many of its numbers on catch data and some silly "fish model" that blends in historical data. Mont said that some age distributions are based on only 2 red snapper! We can do better than that, my friends.
sam


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## billyc333 (Oct 13, 2006)

*Are fishing "hard spots" good or bad for the fishery?*

Sorry guys, but I'm confused here. I have fished hard spots for years, but only in tournaments. We take great pride in sending the small ones (under #25) back down to continue their life, and reproduction cycles. Just keep the big one to weigh in.
The comment about just a few know how to find, and fish hard spots is right on. I do not share, or give instruction on how to fish hard spots, because some folks just can't seem to limit their take.
I know some guys that would fish hard spots day in and day out, just to put big fish on the dock, if they knew how. They do not care that these gals are laying eggs in their nest (hole in the mud).
I see some comments about hard spots are to tell the NMFS about all the big fish out there. But if you share this type of fishing with everyone, it may backfire on you, and help deplete the snapper stocks. One guy says "millions" of eggs. That's right, but some guys do not care how many they kill.
But, that's just me. I don't even fish hard spots anymore.
BillyC


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*Lets see now - junk science or real on water survay*



Swells said:


> I see your point, but there must be over 10,000 reefs, rigs, wrecks, banks, and hard spots out there in the northern Gulf -- don't you think that's a little too much to sample? There are ways to set up a database to even say if a certain place is good, fair, or poor fishing, too.
> I think you had the same experience driving around offshore of Mansfield and SPI, "new" numbers more than you can shake a stick at. The idea is simply to get a method that is representative of the fish.
> 
> Come on, NMFS hardly does any actually surveying and bases many of its numbers on catch data and some silly "fish model" that blends in historical data. Mont said that some age distributions are based on only 2 red snapper! We can do better than that, my friends.
> sam


I know Texas. The rest of the gulf will be a wider effort. To do all this and do it right we will need lots of local help. There are plenty of capt. that know there own area well. I belive your # of reefs and spots is probally low. As I explained before some things I know and other areas like exactly how to count Snapper spots not in the survay will be the job of someone
with more wisdom than I. Two Red Snapper per spot on NMF models -
that just shows how stupid they are! How ever we end up doing it will
be much better than the junk science they try to sell. Rik


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## hilton (Jan 28, 2008)

Rik,
The 2 snapper per spot came from what NMFS models? I would like to take a look at that info.
Thanks,
Tom


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

hilton said:


> Rik,
> The 2 snapper per spot came from what NMFS models? I would like to take a look at that info.
> Thanks,
> Tom


RightTom! That came from Mont. He should be able to help you. 
Rik


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## Bird (May 10, 2005)

Best thread on 2Cool in a long time, especially for the BW board. I've just started figuring out how to set up and read the bottom machine and have been able to 'find' a few spots. Have to admit though, I don't really consider myself a snapper fisherman, more interested in those "g-spots" with bucket mouth groups.

Biggest thing we did to improve our ability to find h/s was to install a commercial grade shoot thru the hull airmar 'ducer. Started seeing things that I had never seen before and can now read bottom at 30kts.

Good News has a very valid point, some spots are better left un-shared with some fisherman.

Thanks for the great thread!

Jay'Bird'


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

hilton said:


> Rik,
> The 2 snapper per spot came from what NMFS models? I would like to take a look at that info.
> Thanks,
> Tom


Perhaps I didn't say it right, but Mont mentioned that some of the creel surveys on age distributions might have very low numbers, and even lead to speculation about "missing age groups." I am not sure, exactly, other than Mont has been on some of the red snapper committees. Don't they examine ear bones, otholiths, or something?

I don't think he intended that there would only be two RS per hard spot, and me neither.

Oh and Bird, I agree with you and Good News about not revealing some of the secrets about hard spot fishing. However, for the purposes of a proper survey, if there is a bunch of biomass (very large red snapper and lots of them), then they should be included in the sample. One doesn't need to reveal the exact locations or methods, ya know. I have faith the people like Rik can find them just fine, and can report the numbers with a fair degree of accuracy and precision. 
sammie


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## Bird (May 10, 2005)

I sent an email to a friend of mine who worked for NOAA fisheries Flower Garden Bank group doing actual underwater surveying and mapping of the Gardens, Stetson and Claypiles. I've asked him what method he uses to count biomass and what were his personal observations.

Incidentally, he also has the most detailed 3D survey map of Stetson rock I've ever seen and the actual 'eyes on' knowledge from having mapped it underwater himself. So far, I've not been able to get my grubby little hands on it...


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*Overview*



Swells said:


> Perhaps I didn't say it right, but Mont mentioned that some of the creel surveys on age distributions might have very low numbers, and even lead to speculation about "missing age groups." I am not sure, exactly, other than Mont has been on some of the red snapper committees. Don't they examine ear bones, otholiths, or something?
> 
> I don't think he intended that there would only be two RS per hard spot, and me neither.
> 
> ...


It is not practial or good to try and fish h/s all the time. There is much I have not covered. Conditions need to be real nice. Holding position in just the right spot is tough. Remember the Sounder pic is I used is overstated.
Sometimes you may only mark ind. fish, others may only show the h/s.
You can sometimes spend hours just going after one. Carls book has been 
around for a long time and never had that effect. Time to pull out all our guns (facts) and fight NMF to win, not just play.

The real practial app. of knowing how h/s. mark on Sounders is this: 
Most wrecks, well heads, metal objects and other non typical marks 
have h/s marks. With a well adjusted Sounder and a good transducer
you can show lots of spots @ speed on calm days. I look for three signs when running fast to know a mark is real - (1) A small ditch thet goes down and back up real fast in flat bottom, (2) a h/s mark in that ditch,
and ind. fish marks on the bottom and staggered up in the water (at 
least three fish). Know this part and you will find some real good stuff over time! The mark @ speed looks much different (smaller and compact).
Some units that are Sounder/GPS combos have a feature that reilly helps here by puting the picture on "pause" the putting the cursor right on the mark to be checked and telling it to go to cursor or map point. This feature makes picking off a mark while running easy. This is a useful feature and I always teach this part if your set has that option.

One other point: There are lots of non typical hard Bottom holding fish that should be counted. 
Now in the big picture in your mind or your map this will increase your understanding of how all the different kinds of bottom work together to 
support the Red Snapper population.
Jimmy - It might be instructive to put h/s one color reg spots in contrast
Thanks Sammie for asking tough questions! Rik


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## Eastern Tackle (Oct 28, 2008)

Rsnap said:


> Some units that are Sounder/GPS combos have a feature that reilly helps here by puting the picture on "pause" the putting the cursor right on the mark to be checked and telling it to go to cursor or map point. This feature makes picking off a mark while running easy. This is a useful feature and I always teach this part if your set has that option.


My friends Raymarine has that option, along with some pretty good automatic settings for shallow water under 400ft. But past that you need to override it and go manual.


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## billyc333 (Oct 13, 2006)

*Hard Spot fact:*

OK guys, since we are all trying to act like we know what hard spots are, here's my experiences.
Many times, while fishing real "hard spots" named, simply because they are "hard to find", I have hooked a sow, but failed to get the fish away from the bottom quickly, and have gotten "Hung on the bottom", so to speak.
Actually, what is happening, is the fish is making it to their hole in the mud. My theory is, they make a hole to lay their eggs, to protect them. If they lay eggs at home, other fish eat them. I know this from experience, because I slack the line, wait for about 30 seconds, let the fish think its free, and jerk the living bouka on the line, and bring her on up. And, even though it's pretty darn deep, over 100' for sure, they will still have some sticky mud on their forehead. And that's the truth!


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*A well adjusted Garmin shows hard bottom reflection*









Once you know what to look for you will begin to see the signs in places you may already fish - like A -28! To the very left side of the screen is how the same mark looked running fast.
Notice how apperent the thru bottom mark is even at speed, though I did not hit the 
upward change of the reef. 
Rik


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## billyc333 (Oct 13, 2006)

*hard spot or hard bottom?*

Looks like this thread is talking about two different things?
Hard "Spots" and Hard "Bottom".
Two different animals.
But still interesting.
BillyC


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## bostonwhaler (Aug 24, 2006)

just saying...you cant count rigs when you dont know how long they will be there... we all see rigs go away every year...this would not be accurate data


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

bostonwhaler said:


> just saying...you cant count rigs when you dont know how long they will be there... we all see rigs go away every year...this would not be accurate data


We can get a database from the MMS that shows every standing rig in the Gulf, with lat/long, and monthly updates too. However, hard spots and hard bottom is a completely different animal.


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*don`t count rigs, count the fish*



bostonwhaler said:


> just saying...you cant count rigs when you dont know how long they will be there... we all see rigs go away every year...this would not be accurate data


Nothing in the gulf stays the same. Wrecks do not last forever. Rocks get covered and un covered by storms. Hard spots from years ago are gone and new fields of h/s spring up. When you count what is there at the time it is accurate right then. Over time you get a good handel on the avarage and the trend up or down. When some rigs are removed there may be stuff and fish left behind for some time. Some drilling rigs leave well heads. Pipelines are the Snapper freeway that ties together rigs, well heads, sea domes, sub sea structures and more. Rik


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## ding-a-ling (Jul 29, 2005)

goodnews said:


> OK guys, since we are all trying to act like we know what hard spots are, here's my experiences.
> Many times, while fishing real "hard spots" named, simply because they are "hard to find", I have hooked a sow, but failed to get the fish away from the bottom quickly, and have gotten "Hung on the bottom", so to speak.
> Actually, what is happening, is the fish is making it to their hole in the mud. My theory is, they make a hole to lay their eggs, to protect them. If they lay eggs at home, other fish eat them. I know this from experience, because I slack the line, wait for about 30 seconds, let the fish think its free, and jerk the living bouka on the line, and bring her on up. And, even though it's pretty darn deep, over 100' for sure, they will still have some sticky mud on their forehead. And that's the truth!


Red snapper, like many saltwater fish, are broadcast spawners kicking out millions of small, poorly developed eggs, few of which ever make it - check out http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/gallery/descript/redsnapper/redsnapper.html. The good ones float and there is no maternal protection instinct like bass on beds or anything like what you have in some freshwater species. Just providing the info for clarification. Great thread, very informative.


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## billyc333 (Oct 13, 2006)

*That's very a interesting link.*

Well, there goes that theory.
I wonder what the hole is for. Maybe to protect themselves while they are laying egg out in the middle of nowhere?
Thanks, for that link.
BC


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## Eastern Tackle (Oct 28, 2008)

Squid are common prey items for mature northern red snapper

I've got something coming just for them.


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## ding-a-ling (Jul 29, 2005)

If you have anything in the middle of nothing, well that's something. Rik would know alot more about this than me.


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## Eastern Tackle (Oct 28, 2008)

I have no idea why my comparison photo is not linking above, but the squid comparison is 2cool.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Well Well, we are now talking about hard spots something that has been taboo for years. We all know (I guess we do) that that is the life of the snapper fishery. These are the real egg layers to sustain our snapper fishery. Yes I have done my share of killing those big girls over the years especially during tournaments. Now days I just log them and keep the number possibly for future use. I dont fish them anymore just for kicks. I know folks who do but thats their business. The big sows that are on those spots will be there forever, years and years after I find them. My experience shows once you catch them off of a HS it is done forever. It goes away for whatever reason. I am speaking of a real hard spot not some rock. It seems the snapper "maintain" it somehow. When you drop down on a used up hardspot you began to catch shark. When the snapper live there they dont allow sharks around you wont catch any. The snapper must be bad hombres to keep shark away. A "new" hardspot (one you have just found) will hold maybe 1 to 3 fish and thats it, all sows. I am going to make a statement that will be shot at by some folks but a hardspot will hold a big sow or sow's forever if they are not caught off of it. It is like their home, they will be there. I have seen it many times. I could mark a hardspot and go back years later and it will be there holding fish. When I fish a hard spot and catch the sow off of it it will die. You clean out a family out of their home and it is done. There are exceptions I know but that is the way I have experienced it. 

Now for NMF's I have personally shown them hardspots, where they are and how they work even let the director of NMFS catch a sow off of one. Did it do any good Hell no. To them they dont exist they are trying to say the spawners are in the 4 to 10 pound range. Heck they do not compair to the big sows. Yes they lay eggs but nothing in comparison to the big mammas. There has been surveys done by recognized people and universities regarding hardspots(fish caught over mud flats) and reported to NMF's and it does no good heck I still have copies of the survey's and by the way it showed many more big snapper in the western Gulf. 

My two cents. Leave them alone They have been hit hard since lots of folks have learned how to fish them. Without the big sow's snapper will begin to decline. Anyone heard that before ? Dont kill them just because you want someone to say "you da man" If you count the eggs laid by just a handful of sows its way more than all the shrimpers in the gulf could kill in one year.. think about it..

Regarding the eggs floating away that could be but have personally seen with my own eyes swarms of little red snapper follow a big sow to the top when I caught one. So much for floating away. Maybe they come back. 

Good fishing

Charlie


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

CHARLIE said:


> Well Well, we are now talking about hard spots something that has been taboo for years. We all know (I guess we do) that that is the life of the snapper fishery. These are the real egg layers to sustain our snapper fishery. Yes I have done my share of killing those big girls over the years especially during tournaments. Now days I just log them and keep the number possibly for future use. I dont fish them anymore just for kicks. I know folks who do but thats their business. The big sows that are on those spots will be there forever, years and years after I find them. My experience shows once you catch them off of a HS it is done forever. It goes away for whatever reason. I am speaking of a real hard spot not some rock. It seems the snapper "maintain" it somehow. When you drop down on a used up hardspot you began to catch shark. When the snapper live there they dont allow sharks around you wont catch any. The snapper must be bad hombres to keep shark away. A "new" hardspot (one you have just found) will hold maybe 1 to 3 fish and thats it, all sows. I am going to make a statement that will be shot at by some folks but a hardspot will hold a big sow or sow's forever if they are not caught off of it. It is like their home, they will be there. I have seen it many times. I could mark a hardspot and go back years later and it will be there holding fish. When I fish a hard spot and catch the sow off of it it will die. You clean out a family out of their home and it is done. There are exceptions I know but that is the way I have experienced it.
> 
> Now for NMF's I have personally shown them hardspots, where they are and how they work even let the director of NMFS catch a sow off of one. Did it do any good Hell no. To them they dont exist they are trying to say the spawners are in the 4 to 10 pound range. Heck they do not compair to the big sows. Yes they lay eggs but nothing in comparison to the big mammas. There has been surveys done by recognized people and universities regarding hardspots(fish caught over mud flats) and reported to NMF's and it does no good heck I still have copies of the survey's and by the way it showed many more big snapper in the western Gulf.
> 
> ...


Words of wisdom from one who knows! I agree with most everything you say Charlie. This proves NMF will never give us an even break even though you proved it to the director. That seems criminal to me. They 
know better but ignore the facts. That is why the only way is to sue them. Mabie we could sue the director personally also! Rik


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Wow, what a thread! Never have I learned so much so quick - and be careful, I absorb info like a sponge, a regular Myna Bird.

But I'm confused now ... if we want the NMFS to have good data, and the H/S sows are "the true baby makers," then why shouldn't we at least estimate some population numbers? It there a fear everyone will start targeting sows over 25 pounds on H/S? From what I'm seeing on the depth finders, you need a super-transducer and a well tuned instrument just to find them, and its an art finding them even with the best technology. 

But your call, perhaps these giant red snapper should be left outside the fish data?

As to hard bottoms, I think I know why. Women like men with hard bottoms. They don't like soft, flabby ones.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Swells said:


> Wow, what a thread! Never have I learned so much so quick - and be careful, I absorb info like a sponge, a regular Myna Bird.
> 
> But I'm confused now ... if we want the NMFS to have good data, and the H/S sows are "the true baby makers," then why shouldn't we at least estimate some population numbers? It there a fear everyone will start targeting sows over 25 pounds on H/S? From what I'm seeing on the depth finders, you need a super-transducer and a well tuned instrument just to find them, and its an art finding them even with the best technology.
> 
> ...


Charlie has been trying for many years to convince NMFS of the importance of the "mud flats sows" to the snapper fishery, in particular with regards to longline operations inside 50 fathoms. I personally think they believe him, and know that these fish are important, but the difficulty in estimating their populations has resulted in their importance being marginalized by the survey people.

Yes, as technology improves these fish will become more vulnerable to more people. The signature of one of these spots is recognizable, even to an amatuer like me, with a well adjusted broadband bottom machine zoomed in, especially in 20 fathoms or so. And as Ric mentioned, they tend to occur in "clumps" of bottom that is conducive, not sprinkled uniformly over the gulf. While I can't find them running, due to my less than the best bottom machine and skimmer, I've noted several while drifting these areas. Unfortunately, the short season and the two fish limit conspire to incentivise fishermen to find these places and catch the big girls, whereas with a more generous limit the same fisherman is more than happy to box 4 smaller fish around a rig leg and then go fishing for something else.

I think that the existence of big snapper on the mud flats is recognized, and so is their contribution, but since our current crop of fish counters don't know how to quantify them, they are treated as though they don't exist in the counts, despite Charlies efforts to the contrary.

We should definitely treat these fish as the jewels they are and partake of them very sparingly. Unfortunately that's a tough sell sometimes with a 2 fish limit.


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## hog (May 17, 2006)

Rsnap said:


> Jimmy - It might be instructive to put h/s one color reg spots in contrast
> Rik


Here ya go...









Heres a whole mess of'm 











This is a bunch of'm out near Devils hole/ 4 in a row/6-700's










Heres about 147 of'm look at the scale to see the distance representation. Many are/were just within a few feet of one another









The (_sorry my picture quality is down a bit today_) Hog


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*Best avl "data"/get real NMF*

True "Hard Spots" are a very important part of the whole system. Thanks hog!
Yes we can and should count them. The fact that NMF ignors them is criminal!
Rik


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

It was not the now director of the NMF's it was Rollie Smitton (sp) He was director years back.. Professor Gary Graham presented the "hard spot" information to NMFS years ago with information and locations I provided to him. Nothing ever came of it. At one of the last meeting with NMF's I met with Bonnie Ponwith PhD the acting center director Southeast Fisheries Science Center out of Miami and she was very interested in the Sow and hard spot info. She was accompanied by Kim Amendola Dept of commerce Communications Specialist (yeah right) Southeast Regional Office NOAA alont with Robin Riechers Texas Parks and Wildlife along with the famous Crabtree. We had a nice long discussion and they were to get back with me and discuss more info later. Well it never happened . Thats when I decided why attend another meeting with NMF's ? Nothing comes of them and it is a waste of time..All the info done by recognized PhD's and the universities studying fish in the mud bottom area seems to went by the wayside. I still have copies of that study. I know there was at least two done because I have copies done by two different organizations at different times.. 

Regarding new technology and new machines. We (Rik and Me )were seeing hardspots back in the black and white paper machines days. So it does not take some super fine tuned high power machine or transducer machine to see one. My little Furuno will see one at 25 knots with an transom mounted transducer. 

Charlie


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## stevg (Aug 31, 2008)

Great post I which more fisherman would provide teaching experiences like these.Thanks a lot.


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*They had the best "data" handed to them!*

Regarding new technology and new machines. We (Rik and Me )were seeing hardspots back in the black and white paper machines days. So it does not take some super fine tuned high power machine or transducer machine to see one. My little Furuno will see one at 25 knots with an transom mounted transducer.

Charlie[/QUOTE]

True Charlie! But I was shown what to look for by FG Christ. I showed you how to see them and Carl and very few others. You and I and everyone I showed all had good Furuno sets that were well installed
and well tuned. I never said you could not see them with a transom mount. To see anything @ 25 plus the transducer has to be just right.
Having said that the newer machines when well installed well tuned and set up right are way better than the old paper graphs. Your electronics were always installed perfectly because of your electronics background
that none of us can equal.
Some of the guys I showed (also on this thread) were good fisherman 
already but it took hands on with me on the boat to be sure. 
Some Furuno sets like the 667 you have are not high dollar or high watt
but just right for the job. The other crazy thing is not all sets are equal.
Some just come from the factory better. Lots of guys do not like the 
"fuzz" you get ehen you crank up the gain and they do not take out 
certain colors that represent only noise like you have. That and other
"tunning tricks" you employ are so second nature that you just take them for granted. Finally the best part of a "fine tune" was fishing with me for years. That is what reilly helped you to know what you were looking at.
I know Carl, you and others have learned more afterward and so have I.
No substuite for experence. I have learned from you also!

My point on NMF should be easy to see now. They had the best "data"
when they had you and Gary Grahm and chose to ignor! 
Rik

P.S. On another note I remember when you built your own Sounder.
LOL old friend!


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Rik

I hope I did not come across like I was challenging your post. Heck no sure wasnt doing that. Yes sir you did show me hard spots for the first time and I did have an old paper Furuno machine that I bought from Jerry Lyles. It was the same as the one you had. I forget the model. Man how many years ago was that ? Maybe 40 years plus . I was just saying that they could be seen with the old machines. My old 667 as you say, works great on hard spots. With the right transducer (very narrow beam) you see more bottom breaks. Most folks make the mistake of buying the wide beam transducers because they see more bottom but they loose detail.. As we discovered removing certain colors (the one's that are only noise) from the machines will allow you to run more gain without interference and see much more. All I can say is thanks for all the teachings back years ago. The main one is being patient and spending hours just looking. Most folks wont do that and that is what it takes to find new stuff. I can ride all day and just look and never fish.. Good fishing my friend.

Charlie


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Hmmm, my dad once owned a longline grouper down by Tampa, and it had one of those 50-pound machines with the thermal paper. Amazingly, with a new roll of paper it still worked - not that I could do much with interpreting the bottom.

Perhaps it is a good thing that ground-wire longlines aren't common anymore, since I can see how they'd be useful in covering some hard spots if you had a bunch in an area. By the time I grew up, the red grouper fishing had crashed and my job was to get rid of a few tons of rusted wire winch, so we could sell her. So I learned a little about ground-wire fishing from the old-timers, as we torched and cut that mess apart, to eventually dump into the sea.

I can only imagine that this kind of gear can tear up some hard spots!


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Any of yall that have spent time offshore you will remember the shrimpers complaining about catching clayballs. This was tons of clay that they would accidentally catch in their nets while shrimping. What they were doing was actually cutting off part of an hard spot. I have caught shrimpers hung on hard spots, took the numbers and went back and found the spot with snapper still on it.

Charlie


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*Thanks Charlie!*



CHARLIE said:


> Any of yall that have spent time offshore you will remember the shrimpers complaining about catching clayballs. This was tons of clay that they would accidentally catch in their nets while shrimping. What they were doing was actually cutting off part of an hard spot. I have caught shrimpers hung on hard spots, took the numbers and went back and found the spot with snapper still on it.
> 
> Charlie


Right you are Charlie! That was what I was talking about when I used the term mowed. From your other post I did not take offense at all. Just wanted to point out how tough it is the first time you try on your own to
find a h/s. I just thought you made it sound too easy! 
The reason you won 2stars on Snapper is because you love the looking part and that is why you are an exceptional fisherman! Rik


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Oh OK Rik I thought I had said sumptin wrong. 3 times if you count taking someone else to catch a bigun and he won.

charlie


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## Rsnap (Aug 16, 2004)

*No one will ever beat or equil your record*



CHARLIE said:


> Oh OK Rik I thought I had said sumptin wrong. 3 times if you count taking someone else to catch a bigun and he won.
> 
> charlie


O.K. 3xstar!
Rik


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