# 40 S&W vs. 45 ACP



## THE JAMMER

Well let's start one up. The age old discussion 40 S&W vs. 45 ACP.

I have both, so am not biased, but I did a little research recently on Remington's and Hornady's website. I just looked at muzzle energy of the two cartridges, and looked at the largest numbers:

40 S&W:
Hornady 155 TAP 479 ft/lbs
Remington 155 express 499 ft/lbs
Remington 165 Golden Saber 485 ft/lbs

45 ACP
Hornady 200 +p XTP 494 ft/lbs
Remington 185 Golden Saber 534 ft/lbs

NOT THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE. Also the larger 230 gr 45 ACP bullets were significantly lower in muzzle energy, as well as the 185 gr 40 S&W.

I know muzzle energy is not the whole picture. Mass certainly enters into it. I don't think there is enough a difference in frontal area (.40 vs. .45) though.

How about you guys: Those of you who shoot 45's, what bullet do you shoot. Same thing for the 40 S&W guys.

How many of you are thinking about maybe changing your bullet weight now

Let the comments begin.


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## Ernest

10 mm for the win. 

155 XTP's at 1250. Energy around 550. 

But, I'm not hating on 45's or 40's.


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## pantallica4211

What's funny is people say the 9mm is ALMOST the same as a 40, now the 40 is ALMOST the same a 45acp?


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## prophead

Sold my .45 colt 10+ years ago & bought a Glock 23 in 40s&w & have never looked back. But then again choice can be subjective.


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## THE JAMMER

pantallica4211 said:


> What's funny is people say the 9mm is ALMOST the same as a 40, now the 40 is ALMOST the same a 45acp?


I went back and checked the 9mm. Highest muzzle energy:

Hornady +p 135 flexlock 369 ft/lbs

Remington 124 Golden Saber 384 ft/lbs

I would say that is not close. highest 40 is 30% higher than highest 9.


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## CDHknives

Hornady critical defense 200 grain in my 45. Winchester Silvertip 155 grain in my 40. I feel that there is not enough difference in effectiveness to care...1-2" difference in shot placement is going to have more effect. Both loads are plenty accurate, so it's all about the shooter (me) and not my pistol and ammo.

By the numbers I think the 45 is going to be slightly deficient in penetration compared to the 40...but it is going to get the job done.

The 40S&W is MUCH closer to the 45 (near indistinguishable IMO...lots of data to back that up too) than it is to the 9x19. I do like the fast+medium heavy weight of the 40 over slow and heavy 45ACP. Both are better than light and fast 9mm.

A double stack 40 is much easier to handle than a double stack 45 for 98% of the population, so the 40 wins in either better handling for similar ammo capacity or better ammo capacity in equal handling.

Is the pot stirred enough yet?


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## CHARLIE

hey Jam

What length barrels were all these velocities obtained from ? Were they say, test barrels or actual length of the barrels in the gun ? Used to be actual length of barrels in the 45's. Is it still that way and other weapons test barrels ? Certainly play a role in muzzle energy and velocity.

Back in the old days when the 357 and 41 and 44 mags came out the advertised velocities were from 9 inch test barrels. When you put the 357 in 4 1/2 in barrels they were not much better than a 38 but hell of a lot of flash at night.


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## THE JAMMER

CHARLIE said:


> hey Jam
> 
> What length barrels were all these velocities obtained from ? Were they say, test barrels or actual length of the barrels in the gun ? Used to be actual length of barrels in the 45's. Is it still that way and other weapons test barrels ? Certainly play a role in muzzle energy and velocity.
> 
> Back in the old days when the 357 and 41 and 44 mags came out the advertised velocities were from 9 inch test barrels. When you put the 357 in 4 1/2 in barrels they were not much better than a 38 but hell of a lot of flash at night.


Excellent question Charles. Leave it to you to pick up on that. for the Hornady bullets the 40 was from a 4" bbl, and the 45 was from a 5" bbl. Remington did not specify.

That makes the 40 look even that much better.


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## CHARLIE

Jam

yes it does and the 45 as usual the bbl from the gun. But I still like a 185 Gr wadcutter (gas checked) at 1200 fps out of my 45. I dont think they make the old what used to be called the "highway patrol" factory round for the 45 anymore. Back in the day it was only the 230 gr ball and the 185 Gr. Hwy Patrol round which was much faster. It was still ball but a different more pointed shape best I recall


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## phanagriff

I shoot the glock .40 S&W. I'm not biased on either one. I'll empty up to three magazines to do the job. That's my 2 cents for what it's worth.


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## ST.SIMONS

I like what you brought up here even though I just switched to all 9mm in my handgunshwell:


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## RB II

One of the major points, for me, is the mag capacity differences between the two. Obvisouly, any single .45 strike is going to be more effective than any single .40, but if I have two or three more .40s to dispense, then my odds go way up when it comes to personal defense. IMO, it is a trade off. The 9 has more capacity than the .40 but less energy. The .45 has more energy than the .40 but less capacity. So given that the .40 has only minor percentages less energy than the .45 and has only a minor percentage less shells per mag, I select the .40.


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## THE JAMMER

HydraSports said:


> One of the major points, for me, is the mag capacity differences between the two. Obvisouly, any single .45 strike is going to be more effective than any single .40, but if I have two or three more .40s to dispense, then my odds go way up when it comes to personal defense. IMO, it is a trade off. The 9 has more capacity than the .40 but less energy. The .45 has more energy than the .40 but less capacity. So given that the .40 has only minor percentages less energy than the .45 and has only a minor percentage less shells per mag, I select the .40.


Good point, however the main thing I think this points out is that your statement "obviously any single .45 strike is going to be more effective than any single .40" is not necessarily correct. They are darn near the same, which gives even more credence to your "more bullets is better" premise, because you really don't lose much using a 40 over a 45.


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## Ernest

Winchester 9mm - 115 grains, traveling at 1335 = ME of 455.

Hornady 124 XTP at 1300 = 465. 

Gold Dot HP 115 at 1400 = 501.

So, you really don't lose much with a 9mm, right? Assuming you use the right bullets.


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## CHARLIE

You can also do some "playing" with loads for the 45 and out do all the rest. Easy 185 Gr at 1200 fps is 592.


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## Texas T

Some "real" world data

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm


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## Ernest

*You can also do some "playing" with loads for the 45 and out do all the rest.*

It can't out do the 10mm, especially not in the 1911 platform.

Sure, .45 acp in a revolver, you can run them up there super hot. If you went to a revolver, you would immediately ditch the small pot round like a .45 acp and use a 41 or a 44. Both, head and shoulders above the 45 acp. Same with a 10mm in a revolver.

The 9mm numbers I posted are nothing. .357's will push a 140 grain bullet at 1350 out of a 4 inch barrel. That's 600+ in ME.

Point being, ME is a relatively meaningless measurement. But, it sells guns. Specifically, it sells new guns in new calibers by convincing people that stuff like .357 or 9mm are somehow inadequate.


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## THE JAMMER

Ernest said:


> Winchester 9mm - 115 grains, traveling at 1335 = ME of 455.
> 
> Hornady 124 XTP at 1300 = 465.
> 
> Gold Dot HP 115 at 1400 = 501.
> 
> So, you really don't lose much with a 9mm, right? Assuming you use the right bullets.


Ernest,

I was using factory ammo loads only, not reloads. Your hornady 124 xtp factory numbers are 1110 fps and 339 ft/lbs. So you must be citing a reload for that bullet.

The gold dot load is most likely a reload. Or if it is factory what is it?

I could not find the winchester load on their website

Just trying to compare apples and apples. I guess we could go into the reloading manuals and get hotter loads than factory for all three calibers. I would guess we find the same thing though.

for the vast majority of shooters, non reloaders, who have to buy their ammo off the shelf, I think the premise still holds: 40 is close to 45; but 9 is not close to either.

Unless that gold dot load and winchester load you cited are actually factory loads. Those are hot ones.


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## CHARLIE

Ernest

I have shot some 45 ACP rounds out of my auto back in the dark ages with some 2400 and unique that scared me. Gun didnt blow. But saying that I would never carry something like that. Another thing who cares about ME when the firsh shot goes off I am leaving if I am able. 
Sorry I never cared for the 9mm. Too much velocity and penetration. Never want to harm someone who was accidentally shot three houses down after going through a few walls. Want all the ME dissapated into what ever you are shootin.


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## RB II

Ernest said:


> Winchester 9mm - 115 grains, traveling at 1335 = ME of 455.
> 
> Hornady 124 XTP at 1300 = 465.
> 
> Gold Dot HP 115 at 1400 = 501.
> 
> So, you really don't lose much with a 9mm, right? Assuming you use the right bullets.


Sooo, we have talked about the 9, .40 and .45, even one vote for the 10mm. Where does that leave us on the .357 Sig??? 9mm bullet in a .40 casing. Is that the panacea for pistol woes?


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## SharkBait >*)\\\><(

no .40 cals for me
i shoot either 230 grain fmj or Federal HSTs out of my 1911s..the HST is devastation unleashed


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## THE JAMMER

Ernest said:


> Winchester 9mm - 115 grains, traveling at 1335 = ME of 455.
> 
> Hornady 124 XTP at 1300 = 465.
> 
> Gold Dot HP 115 at 1400 = 501.
> 
> So, you really don't lose much with a 9mm, right? Assuming you use the right bullets.


Ernest,

Not sure where you are getting those velocities. I actually went into the Hornady and speer manuals. The hottest reload there for a 124 xtp is 1150 fps, not the 1300 you cited. The hottest reload for a 115 gold dot is 1258 fps, not the 1400 you cited. YOU GOT SOME HOT ONES THERE.


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## Ernest

Winchester 9mm - 115 grains, traveling at 1335 = ME of 455. *This is a factory load from Winchester as part of their "Ranger Law Enforcement" series. 
*
Hornady 124 XTP at 1300 = 465. *Factory - Underwood, rated +P+*

Gold Dot HP 115 at 1400 = 501. *Factory - Underwood, rated +P+*

No doubt these are smokin hot loads. Personally, I would not use them. Tend to limit the useful life of your weapon.

Its not really about ME once the ME gets to a certain level.

The performance of a good bullet - be it 9mm/.357, 10 mm, or .45 - at the velocities/ME's we are talking about are going to be effective on human targets with a center of mass hit. 9mm has been killin people since the turn of the century.

The marginal increase in lethality (if that's a word) of a .45 caliber vs. .40 caliber due to the diameter of the bullet or 455 ME vs. 500 ME is, at best, nit pickin. But, if we are going to pick those nits, the answer is 10mm > 45acp > .40.


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## CHARLIE

How about the 38 super ? This could go on and on. 
Personal opinion the 9mm may be a better military round, not speaking of pistols, but not a personal defense round. Not good for Police work. Maybe from a little further away mite work better than a 45ACP but not up close and personal.


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## Ernest

The bullet does not know what weapon it came out of. 125 grains - be it out of a 38 special or .357 or 9 mm - is traveling at a given rate of speed. They are of the same diameter (for all practical purposes). 

If the 9mm does not work as a police round, how did the 38 special and .357 work so well as a police round? Police rounds that were not abandoned until the era of the wonder 9's. Rounds that were abandoned in favor of 9's. 

9mm is the most widely chambered pistol round in military use in the world. How is it not good for an up close and personal defensive round? 

The knock on 9mm is over penetration. Over penetration that can be avoided with a different bullet construction.


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## see-n-spots

I love a debate like this. Here are my test results.

Disclaimer.. None of these test were performed in a lab or on a bench. These were real world field test performed on human flesh. No rounds were measured for velocity

45- 2 shots to the chest, bad guy went down. 5 rounds left
40- 2 shots to the chest, bad guy went down. 14 rounds left

I like the 40


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## dwilliams35

see-n-spots said:


> I love a debate like this. Here are my test results.
> 
> Disclaimer.. None of these test were performed in a lab or on a bench. These were real world field test performed on human flesh. No rounds were measured for velocity
> 
> 45- 2 shots to the chest, bad guy went down. 5 rounds left
> 40- 2 shots to the chest, bad guy went down. 14 rounds left
> 
> I like the 40


 That's kind of misleading: you're talking a single stack .45 magazine and a double-stack high cap in the .40: it'd be "fairer" to compare something like the high-cap Para Ordnance: basically the same gun, 16 rounds in the .40 and 14 in the .45; or the Glock 21/22 at 13 and 15..


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## welder

I love all of the hype now days for HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES, some people don't realize that the average gun fight involving a CHL carrier Vrs Bad guy is THREE SECONDS with a TOTAL of THREE shots fired, that's both guys for a TOTAL of three and that's it, so carrying more than one extra mag for my 1911 is a waste as it most likely will never be needed.
And to answer what is the best firearm to carry? It's the one you have on you right now, mines a XDs 45 with 2 mags and one in the hole.


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## THE JAMMER

Ernest said:


> Winchester 9mm - 115 grains, traveling at 1335 = ME of 455. *This is a factory load from Winchester as part of their "Ranger Law Enforcement" series.
> *
> Hornady 124 XTP at 1300 = 465. *Factory - Underwood, rated +P+*
> 
> Gold Dot HP 115 at 1400 = 501. *Factory - Underwood, rated +P+*
> 
> No doubt these are smokin hot loads. Personally, I would not use them. Tend to limit the useful life of your weapon.
> 
> Its not really about ME once the ME gets to a certain level.
> 
> The performance of a good bullet - be it 9mm/.357, 10 mm, or .45 - at the velocities/ME's we are talking about are going to be effective on human targets with a center of mass hit. 9mm has been killin people since the turn of the century.
> 
> The marginal increase in lethality (if that's a word) of a .45 caliber vs. .40 caliber due to the diameter of the bullet or 455 ME vs. 500 ME is, at best, nit pickin. But, if we are going to pick those nits, the answer is 10mm > 45acp > .40.


Enlightening to me to learn about those hot FACTORY loads. Interesting and thanx for sharing. Really enjoyed the rest of your post Ernest. Certainly makes a lot of sense.

Along those lines if anyone on this thread has not seen the attachment that Texas T has on page two of this thread, you need to see it. Regarding penetration depths in gel, and % of one shot stops, it's amazing how close the 9, 40, and 45 really are. None of the loads tested in that study were the HOT ones Ernest has told us about, but among those tested, it appears the 40 might be the winner, barely.


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## dwilliams35

welder said:


> I love all of the hype now days for HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES, some people don't realize that the average gun fight involving a CHL carrier Vrs Bad guy is THREE SECONDS with a TOTAL of THREE shots fired, that's both guys for a TOTAL of three and that's it, so carrying more than one extra mag for my 1911 is a waste as it most likely will never be needed.


 That may be the average, but if a lot of real "gun guys" ever got into that kind of situation, I think there's a really high probability They'd come out of it with an empty magazine and four or five dry pulls afterward.. How many are on target may be a different story, but there would be some lead flying.


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## scwine

these are 2 of the best/hottest brands of ammo in my opinion...

http://www.doubletapammo.net/

http://www.underwoodammo.com/

these were the only two brands that I would shoot out of my 10mm....before I sold it.
The only 2 that are loaded in my carry mags for my 9mm's.


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## Bearwolf34

Why not just go whole hog and get a 460 s&w..oughta get the job done if ones looking at ME. I'll just stick to the good and accurate 45acp or 10mm, if I need more than that Ill grab the rifle.


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## CHARLIE

Earnest

Wonder why the British went to the 455 Webley after the 38's performed so miserably. 
I am sure there are more countries using the 9's than any other. Even the U S did that.
But saying that it all seems to be changing back. But it all boils down to what you can operate successfully. I just wouldnt want to start learning with a lesser round that one that is better for what I am trying to do out there. 45ACP been good for over 100 years but that is why you build Fords and Chevys. As you mentioned earlier something like ME sells guns. Its all a lot of hoopla. So called knockdown power is a bunch of junk. Aint gonna happen unless you hit a major backbone, head, etc. A major test was made years ago with a reconstruction of a human body with the jell. Made to mimmick the human body on roller bearings and it would roll with hardly a jolt. It was shot with every gun from a 22 to a 45. It didnt move. Only thing that moved it was 12 Ga buckshot. Jus sayin. 

Oh yeah great discussion and yes the "correct" bullet in the 9 would help a bunch. I seem to have a bad habit of falling back to the old days when there was only ball like all the military use. Sorry, but saying that the old 45 ball is effective and works great. Doesent need nothing special but I know the "special" rounds are out there.


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## sharkchum

All those numbers just confuse me. I carry a .45, because they don't make a .46.


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## phanagriff

Update on my previous post. Talking to my brother and friends who are HPD and HCSO, most are shooting 40SW or .45. All agree the first two or thee bullets out of the holster are into the ground by the officer as his adrenaline is kicking in. More rounds in clip is better. That is why they usually carry three clips. They are usually in a real gun fight. Me as a CHL probably get one clip off before I pass out from fear or run away, shooting as I am running!

Appreciate all the comments.


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## dwilliams35

sharkchum said:


> All those numbers just confuse me. I carry a .45, because they don't make a .46.


 Actually they do, given the mathematical definition of the significant digit.. People have been using that quote for years: Smith and Wesson pretty much blew that out of the water, though, even if it is actually .452.


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## Ernest

*And to answer what is the best firearm to carry? It's the one you have on you right now*

I agree with that. And, I would add, the weapon that functions pert near flawlessly, that you have trained with, that you can operate via muscle memory under any expected conditions without looking at the weapon, and that you have absolute confidence in using.

I would further suggest that most folks, myself included, would be well served to spend considerably more time training with our weapons. Irrespective of the weapon choice, 99.9% of the shooting community could improve their proficiency with more range time.


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## CHARLIE

Ernest said:


> *And to answer what is the best firearm to carry? It's the one you have on you right now*
> 
> I agree with that. And, I would add, the weapon that functions pert near flawlessly, that you have trained with, that you can operate via muscle memory under any expected conditions without looking at the weapon, and that you have absolute confidence in using.
> 
> I would further suggest that most folks, myself included, would be well served to spend considerably more time training with our weapons. Irrespective of the weapon choice, 99.9% of the shooting community could improve their proficiency with more range time.


X2


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## prarie dog

Ernest said:


> *And to answer what is the best firearm to carry? It's the one you have on you right now*
> 
> I agree with that. And, I would add, the weapon that functions pert near flawlessly, that you have trained with, that you can operate via muscle memory under any expected conditions without looking at the weapon, and that you have absolute confidence in using.
> 
> I would further suggest that most folks, myself included, would be well served to spend considerably more time training with our weapons. Irrespective of the weapon choice, 99.9% of the shooting community could improve their proficiency with more range time.


 X3!!

Made a commitment to get lots of practice last year. Bought a bunch of bullets from Missouri Bullet Company a Dillon and a bunch of equipment to load pistol ammo in a hurry. We have 45's, 44 mags, 40's, 10's, 38's and a small 380. We shoot them frequently, either handed, and at close range just pointing. The practice has made a huge difference. I'm told by special forces guys that they are required to fire 400 rounds a week of something when they are preparing to deploy, that's too much for a civilian, but a hundred rounds or so a couple of times a month should be easy.


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## jm423

One more+ for Earnest


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## Trouthunter

I have a .40 and I like it. I have more than a few 1911's and I love them.

It's all about what YOU like and how WELL YOU shoot it.

Practice, practice then practice some more.



> 14 rounds left


In my life journey I've found that I met more LEO's that knew generally nothing about the handgun that they carried, didn't really like firearms, only shot their handgun when they had to qualify and were just horrible shots.

So high capacity rounds might be a must need for those that I described above.

TH


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## RB II

I prefer the hi cap mags cause I might not hit what I want as often as I might need to. 

So mo is betta!!!!


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## dwilliams35

prarie dog said:


> X3!!
> 
> Made a commitment to get lots of practice last year. Bought a bunch of bullets from Missouri Bullet Company a Dillon and a bunch of equipment to load pistol ammo in a hurry. We have 45's, 44 mags, 40's, 10's, 38's and a small 380. We shoot them frequently, either handed, and at close range just pointing. The practice has made a huge difference. I'm told by special forces guys that they are required to fire 400 rounds a week of something when they are preparing to deploy, that's too much for a civilian, but a hundred rounds or so a couple of times a month should be easy.


 Just dry-fire practice makes a huge difference: a friend of mine is federal LE and a firearms instructor, as well as a major competitor in the higher levels of IPSC: at one time his personal regimen was up to 1000 dry-fire trigger pulls a day: builds the muscle memory with or without the bang...


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## Sgrem

Shoot whatever you shoot well. *Bullet placement will trump all of these charts and ballistics every time*...stop the threat and make no excuses....can figure out the muzzle energy with the investigators after you call 911. Bullet placement!!!


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## Dan Thorburn

When it comes to using FMJ bullets, a larger caliber will be better than a smaller one. The military forces world wide follow the rules established back in the early 1900's. We simply cannot argue that as a reason for larger cartridges with modern ammunition. At home we do not have to follow the rules of the Hague Convention in 1899. 

With modern hollowpoints, they are all approaching being equal in performance. This is part of the reason the FBI is going back to the 9mm over the .40. Several LE departments are also making the switch. Less cost for practice, easier to shoot, more capacity, etc. 

Handguns are not the best at stopping threats. Shot placement trumps everything else. With that being said I still shoot a .45 but I do own a couple of 9mm pistols too. The 10mm is a sweet round, I just do not own one. If you get bored look up the .45 Super. 200 grain doing 1300fps. that has the dimensions as the .45 ACP.


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## THE JAMMER

If you want an interesting read google "average shots per hit for police." You will find things like: 82% of police shooting incidents occur between point blank and 6 feet. Number of shots per hit ranges from 4-7. Number of shots per officer per engagement is around 5-6. There are lots of studies, and the numbers above are averages of those and are approx.

This might make a case for the higher cap mags. If one of us can shoot as well as a trained policeman (some of whom, as we all know, may not be as well trained as some of us) has an engagement with just one assailant, we should be ok with a 7 shot gun. However, if we should be engaged by two assailants, according to the averages, we will run out of bullets with a 1911 before BOTH assailants are down.

I would venture to say that the average CC guy out there has not been exposed as much to stressful situations, a gun fight or serious training, as an LEO, and our averages, under stress, might be even worse than theirs. This, to me, was the best offense we should have used against the bureaucrats who were advocating lower cap magazines. I never saw any of our proponents really use this. With a 10 round mag limit, any armed housewife who is accosted by more than one assailant has just been sentenced to death- if you use the averages.

How bout that??


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## Ernest

Ignores the fact that when a perp faces a cop and loses, the result is jail. When a perp faces you or me, he is more likely to break off the engagement after you start shooting. Of course, that assumes a rational actor, a potentially erroneous assumption. 

That said, mag cap limits are silly. Silly in the sense that possession of an illegal mag is the least of the concerns of a bad guy. Silly in the sense that even if the bad guys followed mag cap limits, that does little to reduce their lethality. Silly in the sense that any decent shooter with 3 drop free ten rounders can fire 31 shots virtually as fast as he can with two 15 rounders and one in the pipe. Mag changes take no time at all.


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## CHARLIE

I think about this. I have 8 rounds and not 14 I had better make every one count and not rely on I have plenty of ammo and start shooting and hitting nothing. First shot better be a good one. Learned that as a kid taught to shoot with single shot and not autos. But in warfare I want all the ammo I can carry cuz for shure there are gonna be a lot more bad guys out there. But in life and death situations we all know everything changes. Its all about the training and how good and familiar you are with your weapon. I have shot probably many hundreds well thousands of rounds from 45's and dry fired at least that many. At my age I aint gonna change. LOL. Yall have fun.


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## THE JAMMER

Ernest, 

Agree with the mag change, but only for those who PRACTICE IT. Again I would say the average CC guy out there would totally fumble a stressful mag change with another gun pointed at him. However, how many CC guys packing 7 shot guns, actually carry two additional mags with them on their person every time they go out??

Charlie. 

Agree with you as well. Imagine that I am agreeing with two of the gurus on this board in the same thread. There's a reason for that- their vast experience. I would like to see the number of average shots per hit prior to the advent of semi autos. When the average street cop carried a 6 shot 38, I would bet dollars to donuts that the ratio was a lot lower- say 2 or 3-1. That goes exactly with what Charlie is talking about. When you know you have a lot of rounds, the tendency to spray and pray is huge. But if you have fewer rounds to fire, you might be a bit more stingy and guarded with your shots, thus improving a shot/hit ratio.

Remember how many governments over the last century and a half have deferred to slower firing weapons for fear of wasting of ammo.

this has been a very informative thread. Thanks to all.


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## Trouthunter

One thing is for sure and certain; No one knows how they will react in a situation where someone is going to shoot, has shot or is shooting at you unless you've already had it happen.

Not Green Berets, not Navy Seals and not me. I know what I've trained to do in such a situation just as they do and their training is way beyond anything that I've trained for.

But until it happens you just won't know.

TH


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## CHARLIE

Trouthunter said:


> One thing is for sure and certain; No one knows how they will react in a situation where someone is going to shoot, has shot or is shooting at you unless you've already had it happen.
> 
> Not Green Berets, not Navy Seals and not me. I know what I've trained to do in such a situation just as they do and their training is way beyond anything that I've trained for.
> 
> But until it happens you just won't know.
> 
> TH


Yes sir so true.. It is not as some as the folks think or want to brag about what they will do. When you have a situation where you may take some persons life everything changes unless you or others are in grave danger. Then its game on.

Jam

I am no guru just been around a long time. But thanks anyway.


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## dwilliams35

CHARLIE said:


> Yes sir so true.. It is not as some as the folks think or want to brag about what they will do. When you have a situation where you may take some persons life everything changes unless you or others are in grave danger. Then its game on.
> 
> Jam
> 
> I am no guru just been around a long time. But thanks anyway.


The guy that really taught me to shoot pushed this pretty hard: that's where the dry-fire practice, etc. came in. Basically you need to repeatedly go through the basic motions of operating that gun, unholstering it, bringing it to a shooting position, dropping the safety if applicable, pulling the trigger, mag changes, clearing jams, etc. so many times that it moves over from conscious thought to muscle memory: the basic principle is that the conscious thought part is going to basically blown in that "situation", and if you've prepared well enough through rote repetition, the muscle memory will take over and take up the slack: supposedly once you've done those basic motions enough, it actually gets "refiled" into another part of the brain that is less affected by stress.


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## RB II

dwilliams35 said:


> The guy that really taught me to shoot pushed this pretty hard: that's where the dry-fire practice, etc. came in. Basically you need to repeatedly go through the basic motions of operating that gun, unholstering it, bringing it to a shooting position, dropping the safety if applicable, pulling the trigger, mag changes, clearing jams, etc. so many times that it moves over from conscious thought to muscle memory: the basic principle is that the conscious thought part is going to basically blown in that "situation", and if you've prepared well enough through rote repetition, the muscle memory will take over and take up the slack: supposedly once you've done those basic motions enough, it actually gets "refiled" into another part of the brain that is less affected by stress.


This is exactly why I choose the pistols with simple operation, point and shoot if you will. Glock and XD and any revolver are some of those. I have shot a lot, but never really "trained" for self defense. So I choose those with the most simple operations.


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## THE JAMMER

dwilliams35 said:


> The guy that really taught me to shoot pushed this pretty hard: that's where the dry-fire practice, etc. came in. Basically you need to repeatedly go through the basic motions of operating that gun, unholstering it, bringing it to a shooting position, dropping the safety if applicable, pulling the trigger, mag changes, clearing jams, etc. so many times that it moves over from conscious thought to muscle memory: the basic principle is that the conscious thought part is going to basically blown in that "situation", and if you've prepared well enough through rote repetition, the muscle memory will take over and take up the slack: supposedly once you've done those basic motions enough, it actually gets "refiled" into another part of the brain that is less affected by stress.


D Williams,

So well said. As I read that I flashed back to my Navy flight training. That is exactly the attitude they try to imbed with pilots regarding how they deal with flight emergencies. You have to have practiced it so many times, that when it happens for real, you don't even have to think- YOU REACT.

There is an old saying in aviation, "Fly the airplane, don't let the airplane fly you." That precept can probably be applied to most things we do in our lives. Take control, don't be controlled.


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## CHARLIE

Great thread and I enjoyed it. 

Ok Jammer start another one.


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## Walter

.45 ACP only for me.


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## THE JAMMER

Roger that Charlie. I have a couple of good ideas.


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## dwilliams35

THE JAMMER said:


> Roger that Charlie. I have a couple of good ideas.


Well get to it!:tongue:


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## CHARLIE

dwilliams35

Dry fire is very impotant as far as slow fire or long range pistol shooting.You have to shoot the bullet out of the barrel. Its like shooting a bow and arrow. Arrows must be gone before any relaxing can take place. In reality your mind and body is so quick when the trigger breaks you may have a tendency to relax but the bullet has not left the gun. Dry firing goes a long way to correct that. Maintain that sight picture until the bullet has left the gun. Close range rapid fire is a little different story but not much. Dont break that wrist.


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## dolch

I love my 40 but I often carry my baretta tomcat loaded with Stingrr 22lrs

I trust that the little bastard is loud enough to wake the dead, and I assure you you don't want to be shot with it.


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## randeg

*Dry fire*

In no way do I have the experience of the posters on this thread. But I have found that dry firing with a laser told me a lot about my faults and how to correct.

As far as my preference, I prefer .45 with Golden Sabre +P. May not have the capacity but if I hit em, they are going down.


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## Fishin' Texas Aggie 05

.45 with 230 gr +p HST


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## 2hours2thecoast

I think the end result will be so similar that it comes down to what the person will carry/have on them and, most importantly, what they can shoot. Both are great rounds. I love looking at ballistics but I think that people (including myself) get caught up in them too much. This is similar to the difference between a 25-06 and a 270. I do not think that a white tail will be able to tell you which one was which. I would prefer to shoot a 270 but since I have a 25-06 that shoots so well, I am not going to go out and buy a 270. This is a fun thread and gave me lots to think about.......great mental masturbation!

That being said, I am partial to the 45. With larger hands, it is easy for me to hold a double stack. It has been around for over a hundred years (call me nostalgic), and nothing is cooler to me than a 1911. And, I cannot imagine anybody not having a change of heart when they see that big bore pointing at their head.


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## llred

If john moses browning needed a .40 he would have invented it! Hmmph!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## THE JAMMER

llred said:


> If john moses browning needed a .40 he would have invented it! Hmmph!!!!!!!!!!!!


Remember John Browning said he "designed the hi power to correct the deficiencies he saw in the 1911."

That may or not have been in reference to the gun instead of the caliber. We will never know. Like has been said, with the plethora of fantastic bullets out there today, I'm not so sure I wouldn't rather shoot a "good bullet 380" than ball 230 gr 45.

Probably not, but you know what I am getting at.


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## Pocketfisherman

At the time John Browning said that, all the 1911 patents were owned by Colt since John was working for them at the time he designed the 1911. He could not have duplicated the 1911 design if he wanted to. For the Hi-Power, he owned the patents and received royalties on each one sold....so I imagine he would do a bit of self marketing.


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## dwilliams35

THE JAMMER said:


> Remember John Browning said he "designed the hi power to correct the deficiencies he saw in the 1911."
> 
> That may or not have been in reference to the gun instead of the caliber. We will never know. Like has been said, with the plethora of fantastic bullets out there today, I'm not so sure I wouldn't rather shoot a "good bullet 380" than ball 230 gr 45.
> 
> Probably not, but you know what I am getting at.


If you look at the list of Browning-designed calibers, there's somewhat of a tilt toward stuff that we'd call "mouse gun" calibers... The 45 ACP is really somewhat out of place..


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## CHARLIE

Arrrrggggg "The 45 ACP is really somewhat out of place" . That young whippersnapper is at it again. I gotta send him a picture of a real 1911 one of these days.


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## THE JAMMER

How's this??


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## CHARLIE

I like it Jam. I will go get one of my "wadcutter" guns and take a picture. Be rite back. Mite show a ball gun too, if he is lucky.


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## CHARLIE

OK D

just for you My wadcutter gun and hardball gun. If you notice they wont slip in your hand either. Both outshoot the ammo that is available.


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## dwilliams35

CHARLIE said:


> Arrrrggggg "The 45 ACP is really somewhat out of place" . That young whippersnapper is at it again. I gotta send him a picture of a real 1911 one of these days.


Dang, make an offhand characterization about Browning's list of cartridge accomplishments and you're branded for life...

Just look at it: 
.25 ACP
.32 ACP
.38 ACP
9mm Browning Long
.380 ACP

.45 ACP

.50 BMG..

The first five, minus two that are essentially in the dustbin of ammunition history, are firmly in the "mousegun" category.. few full-size guns in any of those calibers..

The .50, of course, is in a different league entirely..

The sole remaining cartridge, the .45, is of course legendary, whether deserved or not, for being a big, heavy, slow knockdown monster of a pistol cartridge.. it just stands alone in that list.

http://gunczar.com/50bmg.html


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## CHARLIE

D

Come on D you know its all in fun. You seem to have the right frame of m ind to put up with a joker like me. Thats what its all about. You didnt even comment on my guns. guess you didnt like em.They have been in the safe too long and even had some rust on them if you look close. Gotta fix that up. That Jammer has been lax on putting up that "other" topic of discussion. We have about wore this one out. LOL and have a good day.


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