# Is anyone running open bearings?



## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

The bearings on all the new reels I've got have some kind of seal. I can see that running open bearings would have advantages when it comes to cleaning, but it also seems like you would have to clean them more often. My biggest concern is always developing a problem during a fishing trip. Wide-open bearings seem like a good way to do that.

I finally decided to break down and settle some these bearing questions, once and for all. (For myself at least.) So I've ordered in a BUNCH of different types of spool bearings. Boca, American made, Japanese, Chinese. Steel, ceramic, ABEC3, ABEC 5, ABEC 7, ABEC 9. But all of them have some kind of seal. I should probably order some open ones, but if they leave me with much of a chance of fouling during a fishing trip, I don't want to waste a lot of time on them.

As much time as I spend fishing, this is something I probably should have done a long time ago.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

I prefer the open bearings w regular cleanings. Seems the sealed or caged bearings last longer initially then never get right again after they need service. The opens tell you they need attn and get right after that attn. Or stay right with regular maintenance.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

Iâ€™m a fan of open bearings. When I pop off a roller bearing cover for full deep bearing cleaning, I leave the covers off when they get reinstalled on the reel. IMO, itâ€™s easier to do periodic lubing with an open bearing than a closed one. Closed bearing also hinders the escape of excess lubricant. Too much oil in the races can actually slow things down.

Iâ€™ll be interested in hearing your experience with ABEC5 vs the higher ABEC numbers. I believe that the tighter spec tolerances and higher cost of the higher ABEC numbers is not necessary in a baitcasting reel application. Iâ€™ll be interested to see if you can tell a performance difference. 

Ceramics. Will also be interested in seeing your performance outcomes on ceramics vs steel roller bearings. 


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

habanerojooz said:


> Iâ€™m a fan of open bearings. When I pop off a roller bearing cover for full deep bearing cleaning, I leave the covers off when they get reinstalled on the reel. IMO, itâ€™s easier to do periodic lubing with an open bearing than a closed one. Closed bearing also hinders the escape of excess lubricant. Too much oil in the races can actually slow things down.
> 
> Iâ€™ll be interested in hearing your experience with ABEC5 vs the higher ABEC numbers. *I believe that the tighter spec tolerances and higher cost of the higher ABEC numbers is not necessary in a baitcasting reel application.* Iâ€™ll be interested to see if you can tell a performance difference.
> 
> Ceramics. Will also be interested in seeing your performance outcomes on ceramics vs steel roller bearings.


I'm inclined to agree with you about that. I'm really skeptical about the higher ABEC ratings in a relatively low-speed application that only gets intermittent use. But I realized I could talk myself in circles speculating - I was talking myself in circles speculating. That's kinda dumb, when I can just test them out and quit speculating. I'll be looking at things like casting very light and very heavy lures, etc. I'll try and update what I find as I go along:

I found out that the ABEC rating appears to apply to the races, and there are real differences in the quality and durability of the balls themselves. I'm finding some steel ABEC 5's that are ridiculously cheap. Like a buck fifty delivered, in quantities of 10 or 20. If they perform good enough when they're new, I wouldn't think twice about just tossing them if they don't respond to a quick cleaning.

I even found some bearings intended for RC cars that are ABEC 7 that have polymer races, but they only have the 5x11x4 and not the 3x10x4. I haven't ordered any yet, and I'm kind of questioning the idea of putting two different types of bearings on the same spool.

I don't want to get emotionally attached to them. I just want the most trips with the best performance, and the least maintenance. But the cost of even a few ruined wades is worth money to me to avoid.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

I too have thought about bearings, plus the bigger picture of everything working together. I have an overall hypothesis on spool bearings and I look forward to the outcome of your tests. 


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## ivomec (Jul 26, 2007)

*Hedgehog Studio*

Hedgehog makes what deem an equivalent to or better than abec9. I use them on my chronarch 100b for throwing real small light lures and on a curator 200 SF for throwing free lining live bait. Iâ€™ve been using them for Few years know and have had no issues with using their open bearing. The bearing is their ZR 1030. I can cast a long ways with their bearings. I can see a difference between a abec 5 bearing and their ZR 1030.


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## Drundel (Feb 6, 2006)

Backup, they are more of a dust cover than a seal. The orange (or whatever color) is more of a dust cover as they come off without a ring holding them in place. The ones with a ring do a better job of keeping out stuff, but water/oil/grease can get by them.

Good video, but he is wrong, you can remove the permanent shields, just not put them back.






To get back to your question, some of the higher end bearings are open. Take a look at the higher end Shimano reels.

My preference is based on their location. Ie, spool bearings I want to be open, whereas a main gear bearing, I want sealed. That has more to do with I want grease to stay inplace on a main gear bearing and on a spool bearing, I can easily add oil to it.

I added full ceramics to my Curado DC.


__
http://instagr.am/p/B-I-5Z7pPuz/

I'm not really sure they offer that much of an improvement over the stock ones. I think the DC makes so much of a difference, the full ceramics aren't being taken advantage of.


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

Drundel said:


> Backup, they are more of a dust cover than a seal. The orange (or whatever color) is more of a dust cover as they come off without a ring holding them in place. The ones with a ring do a better job of keeping out stuff, but water/oil/grease can get by them.
> 
> *Good video, but he is wrong, you can remove the permanent shields, just not put them back.*


So I'm already learning stuff, just from paying attention to things I never really looked at before.

First, I took the bearings out of a brand new in box Team Lew's Lite. They didn't free spin nearly as well as the orange sealed ceramic hybrid (Boca knock-off) that I ordered. But after soaking them in acetone, and then running them through the ultrasonic, they were pretty close.

I pulled out another new TLL and test cast with it. Then I put in a set of the ceramic hybrids. The ceramics definitely added distance when casting downwind. Casting into the wind, it was difficult to get any extra distance without getting some overrun loops.

I noticed that the bearings in the new TLL's weren't identical. Some had rings that you could use to remove the metal shields. Some didn't. The ones without rings made it pretty near impossible to get the shields off. The only way to do it was to put an awl through the metal and just wiggle and tear it out. *Drundel - I'd like to know how you go about getting the shields off.*

So far, I'm liking the Hawgtech bearings. They are stainless outside, ceramic bearings, with polymer cages. They're quieter than the others.

I'm skeptical of the ABEC ratings - especially on anything coming from China. There's no extra cost for printing a package that claims ABEC-7, and there's really no one policing them. I did find that any bearings that claim to be "precision" are supposed to be ABEC rated.

I did find that some of the stock bearings have pretty significant play. Even if they cast about the same distance, that wobble is going to cause some vibration while casting. I've realized that I really like smooth. I don't like vibration, and I don't like the noise it makes. As many times as I chunk in a day, that vibration grates on my nerves. The ABEC rated bearings definitely have less wobble on the bench.

Finally, I've tried several different oils, and all of them really slow the bearing down. I'm going to look for some different brands, but the ones I used are pretty light.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

Trying different bearings may eventually lead you into the lubricants space. And all the tear downs may interest you in higher quality special tools. 

Lubricants and their viscosity. Hydrocarbon or synthetic lubricants. Lots to chew on in that area. 

Then thereâ€™s greases. Some are for for gears. And some for carbon drag washers. Then thereâ€™s the additives....in greases and in some oils. Some additives donâ€™t play nice under certain conditions. 

And of course, there are the tools. JIS spec screwdriver tips. Torx screws. Bearing pullers, bearing packers, etc. You can go all out but reality is you can get by with a small set of stuff. 

Takes hours to read through it all, but you can raise your awareness significantly by reading different threads on the Alan Tani site. That site is a wealth of knowledge for all things related to reel maintenance and a great starting point to learn more. There are several informative threads on lubricants and greases. I learned about the TSI 301 and 321 lubricants on that site. 

Back to this bearing thread. Itâ€™s always fun to watch someone test things. I appreciate the time youâ€™re taking to document and share your results. Iâ€™m looking forward to seeing if my hypothesis aligns with your outcomes. 


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

habanerojooz said:


> Trying different bearings may eventually lead you into the lubricants space. And all the tear downs may interest you in higher quality special tools.
> 
> Lubricants and their viscosity. Hydrocarbon or synthetic lubricants. Lots to chew on in that area.
> 
> ...


I got started on this track because I took a couple of reels to a young guy and he really messed them up. But so much of the discussion on reel maintenance turns into one of those Ford/Chevy arguments. Even the "good" shops don't all do things the same way, or use the same products.

I've been on Tani's website, and you're right about it having a huge amount of information. My problem with it was that a lot of the guys are enthusiasts. For me, it was like some of the knife sharpening sites - they literally put too fine an edge on things. I know the answers I want are in there, but they're dissolved into dozens of other opinions. My interest is fishing, and the reel is just a tool of the trade. But I'll go back and take another look on your recommendation.

One of my big issues is that these Team Lew's Lite reels are noisy when casting, and I _should_ be able to figure out what's causing it. If I could figure that out, it would go a long way. Some people say to just ignore it, but I don't like it. There's also a little bit of vibration that comes with the noise, and I don't care what anyone says - vibration means I have to work just a little bit harder to get the same cast.


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## habanerojooz (Dec 4, 2006)

Yes a lot of stuff to wade through on there. Like all things on the internet, I find some things useful and other things less so. 

My Lewâ€™s Team Lite makes a little noise too. Iâ€™m not sure why either. For that reason, I loaded up on Tournament Pro G Models and I purchased only one Team Lite. Iâ€™m watching with interest to see if you figure it out. 


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## Drundel (Feb 6, 2006)

pocjetty said:


> I noticed that the bearings in the new TLL's weren't identical. Some had rings that you could use to remove the metal shields. Some didn't. The ones without rings made it pretty near impossible to get the shields off. The only way to do it was to put an awl through the metal and just wiggle and tear it out. *Drundel - I'd like to know how you go about getting the shields off.*
> 
> So far, I'm liking the Hawgtech bearings. They are stainless outside, ceramic bearings, with polymer cages. They're quieter than the others.
> 
> ...


You got it, use an awe or a really heavy needle to remove the shield.











Sounds like you want all stainless ABEC-5 bearings, much more quiet than hybrids. My all ceramics are louder than the DC chip.

As far as oils, I did some test a while back and posted them somewhere with a bunch of oils and slowing down bearings and then actual casting tests.

I was surprised on how little a difference there was throwing a SS jr. with a bearing with light oil (Rem oil is great, its thin, cheap, and offers good corrosion resistance) vs something heavier like Corrosion-X. I've since quit using lighter oils that burn off quicker. I want less maintenance.


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

Drundel said:


> You got it, use an awe or a really heavy needle to remove the shield.





habanerojooz said:


> My Lewâ€™s Team Lite makes a little noise too. Iâ€™m not sure why either. For that reason, I loaded up on Tournament Pro G Models and I purchased only one Team Lite. Iâ€™m watching with interest to see if you figure it out.


Thank you both. You've given me some really good information. I just got some Boca Lightning Lube to add to the mix.

Drundel - I was hoping you had a better way to get out those pressed in seals. I'll probably try one more, but if it's as hard as the first I can't see myself doing that vs. just buying bearings without those kinds of seals.

Habanerojooz - I think I'm zeroing in on the noisy TLL's. I don't know if there's going to be a solution at the end of the rainbow, but I'm cautiously thinking that I know where it's coming from.

I've got one TLL that is close to new. I've worked the bearings over to the point that I think you would have to call it super-tuned. It's casting ridiculously free, and if I dial down either the external brake or the magnetic brake, I can't even think about avoiding a backlash. (I've been feathering spools for a lot of decades. When I say "can't", I mean it.) I don't think there's any way the noise can be coming from anything bearing related.

I bought a cheap Kast King Spartacus. (Bear with me - it's related.) My idea was that with good enough bearings, pretty much any reel should cast just about as freely as any other. The difference should be the braking system(s). The bearings that came with the reel were pewp. I put in new ones, and it cast just as good as anything I own. Long and smooth. But... at about the middle of the cast it was making a noise just like the TLL's. The reel has a centrifugal brake on the spool - a dial sort of like a Concept Z. If I turned the dial down to zero, I couldn't cast it without a backlash. If I turned it up to 1, it cast a mile and the noise was almost gone. Turn it up to 2, and it lost a little distance - and the noise got louder. Turn it to 3 - louder still.

I'm pretty close to convinced that the noise from the TLL's is coming from that centrifugal (centripital?) braking system built into the spool. If spools weren't so expensive, I would just superglue them all and see what happens. I just saw that Lew's makes a Centrifugal Brake Cleaner fluid. I never noticed it for sale anywhere, but TackleWarehouse has it, and at least I feel like it won't melt the plastic levers. So that's my next purchase.

BTW - I have a BB1 Pro that I'm messing with right now, too. It has a very similar brake built into the spool, but not identical. And it doesn't make that noise. I gave a quick check, and I think the spools might be interchangeable. I want to be sure because as fast as a spool spins, you could do a lot of damage on a cast.

One last note on this part: the TLL that I'm working with is casting ridiculously long. If there were anything rubbing, it couldn't do that. But it's whirring so loud that a guy fishing next to me asked me what was wrong with my reel. I can FEEL a vibration, but it has to be from some kind of eccentric motion. Next step is to swap spools with a brand new TLL, and then hopefully test one of the spools from the BB1 Pro. I'll just keep narrowing it down until I hopefully figure it out.


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## Drundel (Feb 6, 2006)

pocjetty said:


> Thank you both. You've given me some really good information. I just got some Boca Lightning Lube to add to the mix.
> 
> Drundel - I was hoping you had a better way to get out those pressed in seals. I'll probably try one more, but if it's as hard as the first I can't see myself doing that vs. just buying bearings without those kinds of seals.
> 
> ...


I found the Lightening Lube (at least the thin yellow oil) really similar to Remoil.


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

More info from the continuing saga of my search for bearings:

I got in some cheap bearings that are supposed to be ABEC3. Blue rubber seals. They came packed with grease, and they spin for exactly zero seconds.

So I pulled the seals on a couple of them, and put them in a shot glass of acetone, and into the ultrasonic to get rid of the grease. I couldn't believe how much junk washed out of those two bearings. They definitely weren't made in a clean room.

The bigger thing was that based on the amount of wobble, I don't see any way these could be ABEC 3 precision bearings. And that's when I realized how tough this is going to be. There are no bearing police. What am I going to do... report them to Amazon? File a complaint with the FTC on some Chinese bearing manufacturer?

I pulled them out of the acetone, and they spun for several seconds. But when I blew the acetone out, they went back to maybe a second. It was repeatable. Dip them in acetone, and they spin a little freer, but when the acetone dries they go back to stiff. But none of the oil lubricants I have made them better. I went ahead and put some into a reel, first with grease and then without grease. It wasn't good.

These things may be suitable for skateboards, or maybe for a trolling reel. But for a casting reel, they are utterly useless. So the idea of getting cheap, steel ABEC 3 bearings isn't working out so far. And now I'm skeptical of the ABEC ratings of any bearings that aren't a recognized name brand.

Next.


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## ivomec (Jul 26, 2007)

https://www.hedgehog-studio.co.jp/
Like I stated before, these guys have some good bearings. Iâ€™ve been very pleased with their product. I fish about 40 times a year using their bearings on my shimano reels and Iâ€™ve never had a problem with their open sided stainless steel bearings. Iâ€™ve been using them for a few years now. I also use their ultra light Alchemy Oil. One drop goes a long way....in more ways than one. Lol


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

ivomec said:


> https://www.hedgehog-studio.co.jp/
> Like I stated before, these guys have some good bearings. Iâ€™ve been very pleased with their product. I fish about 40 times a year using their bearings on my shimano reels and Iâ€™ve never had a problem with their open sided stainless steel bearings. Iâ€™ve been using them for a few years now. I also use their ultra light Alchemy Oil. One drop goes a long way....in more ways than one. Lol


Hedgehog appears to be having a problem getting stuff shipped out of Japan due to COVID. At checkout, they have this little notice that their regular shipper can't handle their orders, so they are using another that is a "little more expensive". I ordered a couple of other Japanese bearings from other countries, and they just keep pushing back the delivery date on them. So I assume it's a real problem.

It also looks like people who keep US stock on their products are running out. I couldn't find any of their spool pin tools or the cross-wrenches for them in stock for domestic shipping.


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## ivomec (Jul 26, 2007)

Yeah I seen the same thing when I placed my last order back on May 19th. I received my order on May 29th. That wasnâ€™t to bad of a wait.


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## Drundel (Feb 6, 2006)

pocjetty said:


> More info from the continuing saga of my search for bearings:
> 
> I got in some cheap bearings that are supposed to be ABEC3. Blue rubber seals. They came packed with grease, and they spin for exactly zero seconds.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Where did you buy them?

I have bought a lot of bearings from China over the years, but all were (at least they said they were) bearing manu and other than some LONG ship times, I've never had an issue. I swear some of the bearings are the exact same thing from Boca, even had the same laser engraving. This supplier is cheaper than Boca, but still not cheap.

Heck I even bought some cheap bearings for a USB fan to replace a crappy bushing and while these are for sure cheap bearings, replacing a bushing on a USB fan I keep at my desk, it was worlds of improvement.


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

Drundel said:


> Interesting. Where did you buy them?
> 
> I have bought a lot of bearings from China over the years, but all were (at least they said they were) bearing manu and other than some LONG ship times, I've never had an issue. I swear some of the bearings are the exact same thing from Boca, even had the same laser engraving. This supplier is cheaper than Boca, but still not cheap.
> 
> Heck I even bought some cheap bearings for a USB fan to replace a crappy bushing and while these are for sure cheap bearings, replacing a bushing on a USB fan I keep at my desk, it was worlds of improvement.


I've gotten a bunch from Amazon and Ebay. Some I've ordered direct. The lead times on most of the Chinese and Japanese bearings are running about a month right now. But they keep pushing the delivery date out, so I don't know how long they will eventually take. I've got three orders right now that show that they have cleared customs in the shipping country, and are "in transit". Been that way quite a while. These are strange times, so it's probably not the normal lead times. Mostly I mentioned it to let people know that if they're ordering, look for "US stock" or expect some extended delay.

I would be willing to bet that the same bearings are being sold without the Boca name or price. But I'm finding a LOT of bearings now have orange rubber seals, and I've already found that not all of them are as good. Sometimes it's just a matter of weeding through the bad ones to find the good ones. By the time I'm done, I hope to be able to steer some people toward some of the better ones. I really don't want to resort to name-calling the bad ones.

Some of these bearings are being used in skateboards. It probably makes sense for them to be packed with grease. But in a reel, that just doesn't cut it.


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## Drundel (Feb 6, 2006)

Look for them with LD in the name, LD is lube dry.


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