# Heaven or ....



## I Fall In (Sep 18, 2011)

With the recent suicide of Robin Williams it has raised a lot of Questions. The question I am pondering is if you take your own life can you still go to Heaven. I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand if you took your own life you couldn't ask God to forgive you for that sin. On the other hand if depression caused you to take your life would this be like passing with any other disease or illness? Not trying to start a fire storm but I am curious what your opinions are.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

Hell, it's written somewhere in the bible, I know that. U can't take your own life and ask for forgiveness right before u do it.


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## JShupe (Oct 17, 2004)

I think Pinche' Cava is right.


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## mstrelectricman (Jul 10, 2009)

This oughta git good.


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## JLC52315 (Jul 29, 2014)

Heaven isn't even in question.
Suicide is a sin


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## jimk (May 28, 2004)

There is only one "unpardonable" sin and it's not suicide.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

JShupe said:


> I think Pinche' Cava is right.


LOL!!

I know I am right on this one, my momma raised me right......


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## teamgafftop1 (Aug 30, 2010)

I've always wondered the same thing. We'll find out some day though. I know some wonderful people who have checked out early for one reason or another. I find it hard to believe that all of their good works would be wiped out over it. Not my place to judge though. Judge not lest ye be judged.


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## JLC52315 (Jul 29, 2014)

and sadly in one of his last TV interviews he said " I cant wait to get to heaven and be reunited with my father"


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

jimk said:


> There is only one "unpardonable" sin and it's not suicide.


Called my ma on this question, she is doing some research into the subject. Will post up when she responds....


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## Reel Time (Oct 6, 2009)

jimk said:


> There is only one "unpardonable" sin and it's not suicide.


I agree with JimK. 
X2


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## Zeitgeist (Nov 10, 2011)

I am Robin Williams'ed out man!


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## FishBurd27 (Sep 18, 2012)

I believe you can still go to heaven, but I ain't gonna find out. Im not real Sure how that decision to take your own life even comes around. It's Not an option in my book. I'll most likely die from all the tacos I eat..


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## patfatdaddy (May 29, 2004)

I am going to be shot at the age of 96 by an irate husband as I run out the back door.


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

Only God can judge we are not too.Sins are weighed on His scale.We can only pray he did.


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## 9121SS (Jun 28, 2009)

bubbas kenner said:


> Only God can judge we are not too.Sins are weighed on His scale.We can only pray he did.


I believe this is the only answer.


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## DCAVA (Aug 5, 2013)

^^^That's it fellas, only God can judge. My Mom and I concurred that it is not written in the scriptures, I was wrong there. 

Hopefully he did repent...


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

The only unpardonable sin is me not catching a limit today.


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## GordaCat (Aug 16, 2005)

From my understanding of the Bible, in God's eyes all sins are equal. Its hard for me to wrap my brain around it but he is the ultimate judge. I've gone thru this personally in my family and it's a hard one to swallow. I pray for his family right now. I known what they are going thru.


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

The bible says to take care of your body. It also says thou shall not kill. 

Sounds like a sin to me.


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

If God didn't forgive sinners he would be pretty lonely up there all by Himself.


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## Shady Walls (Feb 20, 2014)

*Death*



GordaCat said:


> From my understanding of the Bible, in God's eyes all sins are equal. Its hard for me to wrap my brain around it but he is the ultimate judge. I've gone thru this personally in my family and it's a hard one to swallow. I pray for his family right now. I known what they are going thru.


You are correct sir. Besides it's not your life, it's God's.


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## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

If you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you get eternity with him in Heaven. There is no need to ask for forgiveness and 'die clean'. What if you were on your death bed and the finest female you've ever seen was your nurse and she walked in and undressed in front of you? Before you had time to figure out your brain was committing adultery and close your eyes and ask for forgiveness, you died. Or somebody did something to you that made you as mad as you have ever been and you suddenly died. Jesus equated that anger to murder. Would the timing of these situations change your eternal destination - NOPE!!.

Our entry into heaven is not based upon asking for forgiveness from our sins especially at the very last second before we die. What an unfair way to have to live this life. What an impossible way to have to live this live when you read what Jesus and our Father actually considers sin. A ticket to Heaven only comes by one way
Romans
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

If any of you have 30 minutes, read 'Since Nobody is Perfect, How Good is Good Enough?' by Andy Stanley.

Matter of fact, if you are sincerely interested in reading that book (it is doable in 30-60 minutes max) - you send me a PM with your home address and I will have a copy mailed to you.


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## V-Bottom (Jun 16, 2007)

Their are 2 Books in Heaven.......One is The Book of Life and I hope all of our names are in it, bc if it's not.....you better get right.
Only God knows when, where and how we will breathe our last breath. He brought us into this world, He will take us out, in His own way. You cannot stop that. From what I have heard, their is nothing in the Bible about suicide. As far as the 10 Commandments go......well, theirs no one on the face of this Earth that has not committed one. We can only pray for forgiveness.


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## Russ757 (Apr 5, 2010)

In my opinion:
1. Everyone on this Earth has commited sin
2. All sins are equal in God's eyes, and the punishment is death
3. Jesus Christ died for all sins, not just certain ones
4. If he believed Jesus died for him then I believe he will go to heaven

Im not claiming to be right, this is just what I believe

Russ


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Barbarian said:


> If you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you get eternity with him in Heaven. There is no need to ask for forgiveness and 'die clean'. What if you were on your death bed and the finest female you've ever seen was your nurse and she walked in and undressed in front of you? Before you had time to figure out your brain was committing adultery and close your eyes and ask for forgiveness, you died. Or somebody did something to you that made you as mad as you have ever been and you suddenly died. Jesus equated that anger to murder. Would the timing of these situations change your eternal destination - NOPE!!.
> 
> Our entry into heaven is not based upon asking for forgiveness from our sins especially at the very last second before we die. What an unfair way to have to live this life. What an impossible way to have to live this live when you read what Jesus and our Father actually considers sin. A ticket to Heaven only comes by one way
> Romans
> ...


Study the thief on the cross beside Jesus. Understand what he asked of Jesus. Then go back and reread what you posted here. Contradicts each other and holds no support.

You are sent to this earth unwillingly. You were sent to this earth for a purpose. To glorify God through Jesus Christ himself. He will be glorified either way you want to put it.

No where in the Bible does it say anything about suicide. Sin is sin. I will say it again. And again. Sin is sin. It's "ALL" the same. You will be judged accordingly. God is supreme! He will do as he pleases and what ever he does.. I can promise you.. it will glorify his name... at whatever the cost...

In a nutshell.. leave the judging to God. He will have the last word. Nobody on this earth has ever been worthy of even thinking about it.


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## kanga69 (Mar 17, 2011)

In my opinion:

God tells us in the bible, when I get your house built, I will come for you. He does not say, when you get ready to come see me, come on. I also believe all you have to do to get into heaven is to acknowledge God as your savior and believe he sent his son to pay for your sins, and then ask him for forgiveness. On that same note, he sent his son to pay for ALL of everyones sins. That all only takes a few seconds and I believe a lot of people make that choice on their deathbed. When you talk about sins, I am not sure God sees one worse than the other. Thats bad news for bad people that live their life caring only about themselves. Its great news for murderers and rapists. I try to live my life in a manner that God would be pleased with - and I hope he has a sense of humor...

With that said, I dont know the answer to your question.


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## Spooley (Feb 24, 2013)

Having been born again 26 years ago when I asked Jesus Christ to come into my heart, I then began to read the Bible. I have read it front to back more times than I can count in that 26 years. A person who has actively received Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior cannot lose their salvation for any sin. The only unpardonable sin is to never be forgiven by God, thus rejecting the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells us in the Bible that he has never lost one of his own. So once you are saved, Heaven is yours regardless of what sins you may commit. Salvation is good for past, present, and future sins so in that respect, it is complete and perfect. 

If one could possibly lose their salvation, then the work that God did by sacrificing his only son would be incomplete and thus faulty, however, no one can lose their salvation.

Hell is real place and is filled with both good and bad people. They are there because they never repented and thus asked God to send Jesus Christ into their hearts.

There are many in heaven who have raped, robbed, and killed innocent people. They are there because they received forgiveness by the grace of God WHEN they got saved.

No one gets into Heaven because they are good, but rather by receiving God's sacrifice to mankind, Jesus Christ.

Being a member of any church will not do it. Being good and doing good deeds will not do it. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

No one shall enter the Kingdom of God unless he is born again. (John 3:3) These are words of God and thus apply as the only way to His eternal kingdom. 

Jesus devoted about 1/3 of ministry here on Earth preaching and warning about hell, Satan, and evil. Hell is not a party place. It is a place of hate, darkness, fear, and evil. You do not want to go there. 

To get saved is simple. Too simple for most people. Most people want to put it off, or take their chances, or try and earn their way into Heaven. It will never work and never has. If it were possible, then God would not have had to sacrifice his son on the cross to die for the punishment of our (your) sins.

Jesus said that he is the way and the truth and the life and that no one comes unto the Father except by Him. I know that is true.

The moment Jesus died on the cross, the Temple veil was torn from top to bottom that separated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple. That is when our hope was born. The hope of the saved. This was a supernatural event demonstrated by God to show the world that we (you) can now have access to the Father through the sacrificial death of Jesus. 

So the question is this. If you are not saved at this time or you are unsure, why would you reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior? 

Thanks for reading and I do hope and pray that you make a wise decision. The Bible tells us that wise men still seek Him.


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## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

Seeker said:


> Study the thief on the cross beside Jesus. Understand what he asked of Jesus. Then go back and reread what you posted here. Contradicts each other and holds no support.
> 
> You are sent to this earth unwillingly. You were sent to this earth for a purpose. To glorify God through Jesus Christ himself. He will be glorified either way you want to put it.
> 
> ...


Either you misread my post or I am misreading a typo in my own post, because I think we agree. Have no idea what part you think contradicts the thief on the cross. He did what the verses I posted said in his last minutes and made it to heaven.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Amen! Saved by grace! Live by faith.. Alone..

I might of miss read it. If so, my bad. My apologies. I stand corrected.


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## trout2th (May 28, 2014)

God has given you the gift of life. It's not up to you when to end it. Only He knows when it's time to call you home.


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## CoupDeGrace (Nov 29, 2012)

Spooly is on to it. 

If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your savior then you will make it into heaven, no matter if you took your own life or not. Everyone sin's and you can be forgiven. If you have accepted him into your life, he will still forgive you even when your gone.


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

Ryan B said:


> If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your savior then you will make it into heaven, no matter if you took your own life or not. Everyone sin's and you can be forgiven. If you have accepted him into your life, he will still forgive you even when your gone.


I agree with this.

IMO depression is a decease and all deceases have a mortality rate. I, like stated many times in this thread, am not the Judge.


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## essayons75 (May 15, 2006)

I believe the below is simply stated and the truth. I don't read anything in there about the circumstances of death, yet the scripture also considers kindness, deeds....but not as the way to gain eternal life.

*John 3:16New International Version (NIV)*

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, *that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
*


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## Wizness (Jun 15, 2011)

Zeus will not let you in is sweet *** gates


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

That's because he doesn't have any..


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

^^^
Yup


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## Walkin' Jack (May 20, 2004)

Opinions will pro'lly follow religious lines but we'll all find out some day. Them that know for SURE can't come back and tell us.


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## trout2th (May 28, 2014)

patfatdaddy said:


> I am going to be shot at the age of 96 by an irate husband as I run out the back door.


That's funny pfd! I seriously doubt I'll make it to 96, much less run, but it's good to dream.


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## driftwood2 (Jun 6, 2005)

So this God of love is going to condemn someone that is in deep depression or mentally unstable for eternity? That wouldn't be my kind of God. Just maybe heaven and hell is a state of mind here and now. Obviously the man was living in a mental hell and needed a way out.


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## Gfish (Aug 31, 2009)

It's hard to say what goes through a persons mind when faced with a disease that will slowly diminish your quality of life. It could be he was thinking that he didn't want to go through it or put his family through it. I'm sure he thought he was doing the right thing and will have to deal with whatever the consequences are. 
I do know his humor will be missed.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

bubbas kenner said:


> Only God can judge we are not too.Sins are weighed on His scale.We can only pray he did.


If V-Bottom is running that scale, I'm in big trouble for teasing him...


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

I'm nobody's biblical scholar but I know this , the New Testament tells us repeatedly not to judge.

I hope he went to heaven.


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## ccketchum (Oct 18, 2010)

what if he and others who have done this are His angels ? because they have died , we here are having discussions about the Bible , people are praying , and im sure there are more of us thinking of or are reading the Bible . in other words their deaths have brought us closer to Him . when they get up to heaven , the gates open wide and our Father welcomes them because they turned some of us around to Him ?


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Are you a "God fearing person"?

Or do you have "A loving God"?

It just seems to me that many on here judge others as if they think they are God. The most any of us have are educated opinions.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

*good article*

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/suicide.shtml


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

I have a hard time believing that it's a hard and fast "rule" by any means: A soldier that throws himself on a grenade is ultimately committing suicide as well; that's got to be offset by the sacrifice for the people he's trying to save, though. I know of an older man that found out he had some progressive diseases that would end up with him being an invalid: he killed himself, and left a note that he didn't want to be a burden to his family as it progressed. That's got to be treated differently by a merciful God than your run-of-the-mill "I just don't feel like doing it anymore" suicide..


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Are you a "God fearing person"?
> 
> Or do you have "A loving God"?


 Those aren't mutually exclusive...


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

dwilliams35 said:


> Those aren't mutually exclusive...


True


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## Shady Walls (Feb 20, 2014)

If nothing else this post got some people to look at the bible, God works in mysterious ways.


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## I Fall In (Sep 18, 2011)

Shady Walls said:


> If nothing else this post got some people to look at the bible, God works in mysterious ways.


Good point. I thought about this very hard before I started this thread. Like I stated, I didn't want to start a firestorm. Overall there has been some very insightful replies. I still don't know the real answer, but I think we will not truly know until we stand before the Lord.
Keep them coming.
God Bless


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## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

Walkin' Jack said:


> Opinions will pro'lly follow religious lines but we'll all find out some day. *Them that know for SURE can't come back and tell us*.


Don't be too sure about that, Jackson.. I made a deal with Ranch on an older thread to get in touch with him if I can...when my time comes...

Stand by......


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## Rubberback (Sep 9, 2008)

Shady Walls said:


> If nothing else this post got some people to look at the bible, God works in mysterious ways.


This is probably the correct answer God works in mysterious ways.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Shady Walls said:


> If nothing else this post got some people to look at the bible, God works in mysterious ways.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

says I'm out of cabbage.. sorry.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Poor Judas. Hand chosen by Christ himself to do a job. You think Judas just woke up at a whelms notice and just decided to turn Jesus in? Go back and read Romans 8, 9 and 10 really close. We are all here for a purpose and what ever that purpose is... it will glorify his name.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Is this the year 1607?*

When I was a young man I was sure that by the time I was my present age science and reason would have completely supplanted religion. Boy was I wrong about that.


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## USNHM-DV (Jan 6, 2014)

Seeker said:


> Poor Judas. Hand chosen by Christ himself to do a job. You think Judas just woke up at a whelms notice and just decided to turn Jesus in? Go back and read Romans 8, 9 and 10 really close. We are all here for a purpose and what ever that purpose is... it will glorify his name.


 Would be nice to know that purpose.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

To give God the glory. That's everybody's purpose. But humans deny him. You can live your life the way you want. But the reason we were put here is to glorify his name. It's biblical.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Johnboat said:


> When I was a young man I was sure that by the time I was my present age science and reason would have completely supplanted religion. Boy was I wrong about that.


Choice. Everyone will make up their own minds. And with any choice in life. There is a consequence. Good or bad. It's not entertainment. People have it in their heads that this life is supposed to be entertaining. So, we witness what has happened to Mr. Williams. The fun in life went away and he could not handle the pain. He opted out and left the bourdon to be shared by people who do not deserve it. Suicide is selfish. The most selfish act a person can commit. It's ugly. Nothing about it is Godly. That's why you see so much shock and aww over it.


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

Seeker said:


> To give God the glory. That's everybody's purpose. But humans deny him. You can live your life the way you want. But the reason we were put here is to glorify his name. It's biblical.


Amen BIC.


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## USNHM-DV (Jan 6, 2014)

Seeker said:


> To give God the glory. That's everybody's purpose. But humans deny him. You can live your life the way you want. But the reason we were put here is to glorify his name. It's biblical.


Yes, but I believe we have another purpose, too. Be it to make a difference in many lives or just one life, we have a purpose for being here. Call it a secondary purpose if you want, but its there. I just wish I knew if I've completed that purpose or yet to do it. Guess I won't know until the final tally is done.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

When You have served Gods purpose he will bring you home. I understand.. You looking for "self" purpose. You will never find it. I promise. "Self"... You have to part from self and look beyond..


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

Seeker said:


> Choice. Everyone will make up their own minds. And with any choice in life. There is a consequence. Good or bad. It's not entertainment. People have it in their heads that this life is supposed to be entertaining. So, we witness what has happened to Mr. Williams. The fun in life went away and he could not handle the pain. He opted out and left the bourdon to be shared by people who do not deserve it. Suicide is selfish. The most selfish act a person can commit. It's ugly. Nothing about it is Godly. That's why you see so much shock and aww over it.


He lost the battle with his demons and his disease. I am pretty sure he did not spend his final days passing judgement on dead people in internet chat rooms.


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## KeeperTX (Jul 8, 2013)

I don't know if he was a Christian, but this is what I found.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-suicide-saved.html



Quote said:


> *Question: "If a Christian commits suicide, is he/she still saved?"
> 
> Answer: *It is a sad fact that some Christians have committed suicide. Adding to the tragedy is the false teaching that committing suicide automatically consigns one to hell. Many believe that a Christian who commits suicide will not be saved. This teaching is not supported in the Bible.
> 
> ...


​


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## USNHM-DV (Jan 6, 2014)

Seeker said:


> When You have served Gods purpose he will bring you home. I understand.. You looking for "self" purpose. You will never find it. I promise. "Self"... You have to part from self and look beyond..


 What I'm looking for is what you said, Gods purpose. What is that purpose. That is what I'm wanting to know. As for "self purpose"...you couldn't be more wrong.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Ohh.. Ok. Live it the way you see fit. Please, carry on.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Oh trust me Mr. Miller, I don't judge anyone in chat rooms. If you read it that way, it was not my intention.


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## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

In simple form, we have 3 purposes

In no particular order

*have a real relationship with your God, Father, Creator (all through out the bible from the beginning, our Father genuinely desires a relationship with us but there are things He set in place for that relationship to activate and stay active.)

*live a life that your gifts and talents are being utilized for the greater good of His Kingdom and sharing the wonderful message of Jesus Christ. Heaven does not have a max capacity rating and our Father desires we all go, but rules are rules. 

*That we live a life that puts 'self' far down the list. That is why those who have self at #1 might seem happy, but it is almost always a shallow happy and easily and quickly vaporized. It is also why usually the people who live a life of giving, forgiving, and loving others unconditionally have a happiness that is much deeper.


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

Seeker said:


> Oh trust me Mr. Miller, I don't judge anyone in chat rooms. If you read it that way, it was not my intention.


Dude, come on. Your post had generalizations, leaps of abstraction and judgement. If not judgement of Williams to prove a point, then what are your intensions?


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

I don't judge people. That sword is not mine to swing. I learn from others mistakes. 

I like that generalizations and leaps of abstractions statement though. Not not looking for arguing. But if you lived in my shoes and walked my five hundred miles I'm sure you would understand what I intended.


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## Spooley (Feb 24, 2013)

*Everyone will know the truth someday,*

.....some while they are still alive and others when it is too late to repent.

Most people will go into hell for a couple reasons: they never knew the truth and the way and the life, or they refused to repent and thus rejected the savior Jesus.

Satan and hell are real and the devil hopes that you reject Jesus.

God's promises only come to those that accept Jesus.

God is not only a god of love, mercy, grace, and forgiveness, but also he is a god of justice and justice demands action. God gave us the way to him but most reject that way.

If you reject Jesus, you reject God and heaven as your eternal destination.

If you actually think that I am judging anyone here, you are only pointing the finger away from it's target, which is the pointer. This is deference or projection due to conviction.

If we cannot trust Jesus or the Bible then there is nothing else.

If you are saved and have a relationship with God, then you already know him. God does desire that relationship with you.

Hate me for telling you the truth?

Read Acts 4:12 and John 3:3. Stop making excuses for yourself. Experience God now while you still can make the right decision.:doowapsta


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Spooley said:


> Most people will go into hell for a couple reasons: they never knew the truth and the way and the life....


I may go to hell, but I just can't bring myself to believe that a good person who cares about others and gives of themselves in an unselfish way will go to hell because they didn't believe exactly like you. This is what I meant in an earlier post about "God fearing" or "a loving God".


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## USNHM-DV (Jan 6, 2014)

I have already served my time in hell.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Whenever one faith believes that those outside their faith are condemned to hell*

Whenever one faith believes that those outside their faith are condemned to hell, its pretty easy to justify wiping them out. There are some on the other side of the world who are acting on that belief right now.


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## En Fuego (Jul 26, 2006)

I always find in comical that God always likes the same thing and believes the same way as the person quoting his opinion, and how he hates and will visit his wrath on the same people the believer hates, for the same reasons.

Man has manipulated faith to his own purposes and beliefs since the dawn of time, including the bible, koran, tora and all other religious doctrine.

Who knows what God really said - its all been watered down by those who chose to have power and control over others for 5000 years - LOOOONNNNGGGG before written words.

Robin will only be judged by Orson - nanoo nanoo


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Not enough light*

Christ-ians are FOLLOWERS of Jesus Christ teachings - we believe we have DEFEATED the grave and physical death transforms us from a physical realm, into a form and an eternal existence outside this physical body. We get there not by working for that goal, but by our belief that Jesus gave himself up as a sacrifice for mans evil, and as an example to man to follow his teachings as best we know how during our physical existence. We are to be EXAMPLES to our fellow man, and tell those whom we may know that DEATH has no hold on us.

Gods word, left as instruction/guide for man has NO MEANING without GODS HELPER the HOLY SPIRIT as guide, and as Gods tool for SPIRITUAL understanding of that WORD. Most of the Bible is NONSENSE to those who haven't DECIDED to follow Jesus.

Jesus in his day told many to GO AND LIVE IN SIN NO MORE. Take up MY CROSS and follow me. Many have, but far more reject that very simple but EXTREMELY hard to accomplish message.

Salvation comes by CHOICE - you either "get it" - or you CHOOSE to reject it.

There are lines drawn in the sand - those opposed to Christs teaching "the anti-christs" and those who would accept and make an effort to remain loyal to his teaching, the Followers of Christ.

Hell is a place never intended for men created in Gods Image. God does not put men there. MEN put themselves there by CHOOSING which side they stand on. Lucifer counts his victories over men, one man or woman at a time. The road to rejection is the path of least resistance.

The road to God is VERY NARROW, many seek, but few will walk it.

There is NO VICTORY for Followers of Christ when we see people reject the Way, the Truth, and the Light - just sorrow that we could not become a friend, and a living example for Jesus, as that friend. Christians should be about the GOOD NEWS FOR MAN.

May the GOD of Creation remove the LOGS from Christ-ians eyes and the specks we see in those of unbelief. May he give us all ears to hear, and remove the blinders and confusion Lucifer uses as HIS tools to snare the unwary. May God cause his LIGHT to shine in the darkness that surrounds us.


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## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

Whitebassfisher said:


> I may go to hell, but I just can't bring myself to believe that a good person who cares about others and gives of themselves in an unselfish way will go to hell because they didn't believe exactly like you. This is what I meant in an earlier post about "God fearing" or "a loving God".


 So how good is good enough? Offer still stands on the free book. I promise anybody that thinks good people have a chance will enjoy the book. It is short and easy to read. Look back at page 3 if you want me send you a copy.


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

What is heaven? What is hell?


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## B-Money (May 2, 2005)

mastercylinder said:


> What is heaven? What is hell?


I think it has to do with the ratio of aggies and Baptists to regular people.


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## wtc3 (Aug 16, 2005)

Heaven: Perfect dwelling place after death where God and the angels dwell. 

Hell: Eternal separation from God in a place full of damned souls.


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

wtc3 said:


> Heaven: Perfect dwelling place after death where God and the angels dwell.
> 
> Hell: Eternal separation from God in a place full of damned souls.


Who is God? What are angels, and how do you know this?



Bobby Miller said:


> I think it has to do with the ratio of aggies and Baptists to regular people.


That was funny, Bobby. :smile:


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

For those who don't believe in God.. If you don't believe in him.. Why do you hate him the way you do? You acknowledge him but you despise him. Explain.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Bobby Miller said:


> I think it has to do with the ratio of aggies and Baptists to regular people.


Yes, but I'm sure that if one is truly repentant, one could probably successfully petition for the Almighty's forgiveness for the sin of worshipping male cheerleaders..


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## CTone (Jul 23, 2013)

Heaven-fictional place where supposed god of all the world lives with his fictitious son. Final resting place of superstitious believers in fictional son.

Hell- fictional place the believers of before mentioned myth, like to condemn non-believers to for eternity. Final resting place of unrepentant murders, thieves, rapists, gays, and to many people who regularly post on 2coolfishing the list also include transsexuals, liberals, democrats, black people, Muslims, etc.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Seeker said:


> For those who don't believe in God.. If you don't believe in him.. Why do you hate him the way you do? You acknowledge him but you despise him. Explain.


 I don't see that as being such a discrete difference there: There's militant atheists that despise all religion, and there's what for lack of a better term would be "apathetic atheists" that the "despise" description wouldn't apply to: They may not understand or have the relationship with their God that somebody else does, but that doesn't necessarily imply any negative feelings toward religion. You can't use quite that wide a brush on that..


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## CTone (Jul 23, 2013)

Seeker said:


> For those who don't believe in God.. If you don't believe in him.. Why do you hate him the way you do? You acknowledge him but you despise him. Explain.


Why do believers continually think that non-believers hate god.
How can I hate something I don't believe exists.
Why do I not think your god exists?
Because I have a brain.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

CTone said:


> Why do believers continually think that non-believers hate god.
> How can I hate something I don't believe exists.
> Why do I not think your god exists?
> Because I have a brain.


 So why the animosity?


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## wtc3 (Aug 16, 2005)

mastercylinder said:


> Who is God? What are angels, and how do you know this?


We've been through this before. We all know where you stand and know you will only continue to reply with questions. If I would've noticed it was you who asked about heaven and hell I wouldn't have even wasted my time with a reply. You're a good man, Bruce. I just hope someday you'll realize "good" isn't always good enough and accept Christ into your heart.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Still no answer. CTONE.. Read your post and think about what you just said and imagine this.. There is a mirror on the wall that is 1/4" wide, 6" tall.. And think to yourself.. This is the perfect mirror for the narrow minded..


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*What Robin Williams said*

This thread started with Robin Williams death. Here is what he said:


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## CTone (Jul 23, 2013)

Seeker said:


> Still no answer. CTONE.. Read your post and think about what you just said and imagine this.. There is a mirror on the wall that is 1/4" wide, 6" tall.. And think to yourself.. This is the perfect mirror for the narrow minded..


No animosity, I just choose not believe as you do.
If we had different methods fertilizing trees, I wouldn't hate you for your way of doing it. Nor would I be jealous of your trees. If I thought you had the right idea and felt I was wrong with regards to my trees, I would seek out your council.
I am not closed minded, I am open to new ideas, but these ideas need to stand up to serious examination of facts. If something requires faith for it to be true, then maybe the concepts are faulty.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I don't hate unicorns, jack-a-lopes or mermaids. I just have never seen one of these alive, and I do not believe they exist.


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## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

I only got one problem with all of this... I admit that I'm a heathen/Methodist but I got a lot of friends that are of other religious faiths. If we gotta accept Jesus as our Saviour to get into Heaven..what are we gonna do with all the other folks.. Now..far as the muslims go...they can all go to hell as far as I am concerned...but I got a lot of Jewish friends.. What's gonna happen to them? I think there are probably about 20 million of them worldwide. Do they all have to go to hell?.. If so..it's gonna get pretty crowded down there...

Why don't we all just pick our own paths...and respect the fact that maybe we might be missing something as far as trying to make everyone think our own way ? I hope there is a Heaven...and hope I get 'admission'...and I am likely gonna find out sooner than most of our young evangelists on here...but I really wonder about the billions of people around the world that have different views....

.02


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

CTone said:


> I don't hate unicorns, jack-a-lopes or mermaids. I just have never seen one of these alive, and I do not believe they exist.


I dislike chupacabras...Caught one robbing my beerz cooler by the pool...They exist...


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

Tortuga said:


> I hope there is a Heaven...and hope I get 'admission'...and I am likely gonna find out sooner than most of our young evangelists on here...


Send a postcard if you make the cut...


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## bg (May 21, 2004)

Tortuga said:


> ...but I got a lot of Jewish friends.. What's gonna happen to them? I think there are probably about 20 million of them worldwide. Do they all have to go to hell?.. If so..it's gonna get pretty crowded down there...


The Jews are a special case, they have always been God's chosen people and the coming of Christ did not affect his covenant with them. There's a LOT of scripture that covers this, I'm unfortunately not a biblical scholar so I can't point you to it but the bottom line is they're covered. We were adopted into the covenant through our faith in and acceptance of Christ.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

CTone, I respect the way you believe.


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

wtc3 said:


> We've been through this before. We all know where you stand and know you will only continue to reply with questions. If I would've noticed it was you who asked about heaven and hell I wouldn't have even wasted my time with a reply. You're a good man, Bruce. I just hope someday you'll realize "good" isn't always good enough and accept Christ into your heart.


We certainly have been through this before, and what is wrong with me still having questions?

I'm not an atheist. I am an agnostic, which basically means that I do not claim to have any faith that a god exists, but I also don't claim that a god does not exist. In other words, I don't know, and, therefore, I obviously have a lot of questions. I have looked to you believers to help me understand, but you haven't done a very good job of doing that because you don't know either. That's why they call it "having faith."

By nature, I'm a very curious person who likes to understand, but I don't understand Christianity. I don't understand religion at all, for that matter, and I can't just blindly swallow what was spoon fed to me in Sunday school as a kid if it doesn't make sense to me.

I do, however, find it interesting that Jesus Christ is portrayed as a shepherd leading a flock of sheep.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

CTone said:


> No animosity, I just choose not believe as you do.


 You just suggested that believers are devoid of a brain. If that isn't animosity, I really don't know what is.



CTone said:


> If we had different methods fertilizing trees, I wouldn't hate you for your way of doing it. Nor would I be jealous of your trees. If I thought you had the right idea and felt I was wrong with regards to my trees, I would seek out your council.
> I am not closed minded, I am open to new ideas, but these ideas need to stand up to serious examination of facts. If something requires faith for it to be true, then maybe the concepts are faulty.
> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
> I don't hate unicorns, jack-a-lopes or mermaids. I just have never seen one of these alive, and I do not believe they exist.


 Do you know for sure that the moon and stars exist? Have you been there, touched them? How do you know it's not just some props hung up on the roof by government conspiracy minions? Do you know for sure that atoms exist? Willing to take the word of theoretical physicists, are ya? How about the cold virus: ever seen it? How do you know for sure it's not just an evil spirit that has taken over your body and given it the sniffles? Dinosaurs: ever seen a live T-rex? give me some concrete and plaster of paris and I could probably make a passable replica of the skeletons that have been dug up. You probably have no idea that there is actually a war on in recent months in Iraq and Syria, with some truly abhorrent actions taking place, but you believe it to be so based on hearsay.

We operate on faith all day long, every day: you have faith that water's going to come out of the shower head every morning. You have faith that your alarm clock is going to work. You have faith that your brakes are going to work, otherwise you'd never go faster than 5 mph.

Faith in God is no different: those of us that believe see, hear, and feel tangible, basically incontrovertible proof of his existence everywhere. I can lay my hands on my brand-new weedeater, but my faith that God exists, based on what I've seen and experienced, is stronger than my faith that it will actually start when I pull the rope.

Once you let yourself be open to the possibility of allowing that belief, and start to put all the pieces together, the existence of God is pretty much a given in light of the preponderance of evidence: Logic demands belief once you allow yourself to believe what's right in front of your face. If, on the other hand, you go into it believing (there's that word again) that there's no way he exists and that believers don't have brains, you'll never see the connections, nor any of the overwhelming evidence. That's pretty much the definition of "closed-minded"


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## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

Blk Jck 224 said:


> Send a postcard if you make the cut...


Just keep in touch with 'Ranch' on that one, Robert.. He and I already got a deal to test it out.. I'd sign in from up there but probably would have forgotten my password...so it may just be a 'twitter'....:biggrin:

Houdini tried it with his Widow..but I think she finally gave up on him after about 50 years...so the odds don't look good...but I'll give it my best shot..:wink:


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Hmmm making the "cut"*



Blk Jck 224 said:


> Send a postcard if you make the cut...


The story of one who didn't -

19â€œNow there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20â€œAnd a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich manâ€™s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22â€œNow the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abrahamâ€™s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23â€œIn Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24â€œAnd he cried out and said, â€˜Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.â€™ 25â€œBut Abraham said, â€˜Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26â€˜And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.â€™ 27â€œAnd he said, â€˜Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my fatherâ€™s houseâ€" 28 for I have five brothersâ€"in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.â€™ 29 â€œBut Abraham said, â€˜They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.â€™ 30â€œ But he said, â€˜No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!â€™ 31â€œBut he said to him, â€˜If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.â€™â€

The RESULT of unbelief and scoffers is a place of torment - you choose your reward -

Nonsense to most, I understand this -- but go ahead with that scoffing - its OK - the God I believe in and tremble before, is in control. Makes living on this world a whole lot easier KNOWING that fact.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Robin Williams*

Was in TORMENT most of his adult life, he was a brilliant comedian, and could SEE a lot of funny in human circumstances. He lived the tragedy through humor, I don't know if he had a relationship with his Creator.

He posed the question, I hope there is laughter in Heaven. Well certainly there must be, have you ever looked at a duck billed platypus? Or many of the strange funny looking Creatures left alive today? I would think God who could imagine matter to create what our Scientists measure as the "Big Bang" would not also have humor we can't even begin to fathom.

Humanity attempts to put the God of Creation into a box of our puny understanding , just is't possible -


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

I can't make the sun rise in the west tomorrow, so obviously I am not in control. But past that, I honestly don't know and wouldn't bet money on anything. For me to live with myself, I have to follow morals and lead my life a certain way. It seems to me that all religions except muslims are basically good.


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## glenbo (Apr 9, 2010)

During a revival at the church I used to go to in Dallas, the preacher talked about Heaven and Hell. It was many years ago so I can only paraphrase him, but it went something like this:

If you believe that God is all powerful and built Heaven to be the most wonderful, most beautiful, most pleasant place in all Creation, far beyond our ability to comprehend, that He made it perfect as only He can do, then it stands to reason that its opposite, Hell, is the absolute worst place in all Creation, also far beyond anything we can ever understand. I made my choice when I was 12 years old and restated my commitment at that revival. Life has been really hard sometimes, been wonderful most of the time, but I know that the next life will be joyful beyond anything a million of us can dream up, because it's God's Creation.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Whitebassfisher said:


> I can't make the sun rise in the west tomorrow, so obviously I am not in control. But past that, I honestly don't know and wouldn't bet money on anything. For me to live with myself, I have to follow morals and lead my life a certain way. It seems to me that all religions except muslims are basically good.


 Religion makes people do funny things: even Islam, at base, is really centered around peace, love, and treat your fellow man as you would yourself. It's the people that bastardize it and emphasize violence as a theology: If Christians had most of the proponents and leaders of their religion concentrating on a lot of the Old Testament, we'd probably be just as hateful and evil as Muslims seem to be now. Christianity has skirted the edges of that for centuries, off and on, and I really think we're headed back there now: the term "prayer warriors" is not uncommon and readily accepted among fundamentalist Christians, people are again talking about being a "soldier for Christ", etc. etc. etc.: while there's nothing wrong per se with the sentiment as it's generally presented, of course, I would imagine that such changes in the religious lexicon also preceded the Spanish Inquisition; Christianity has a long and storied violent past , and it seems that the acceptance of violence in the name of Christ seems to once again be popping up its head as it has occasionally for two thousand years. Is that a reaction to the long run of violence that Islam has been the center of? Who knows. I really doubt that it's going to end well, however.. at least not in a fashion which I've been raised to consider "Christian behavior".. Not discounting the school of religious thought that considers a holy war devoid of moral thought the end goal, but I really tend to think that the Lord would generally tend to want us to keep our wits about us and act like adults from time to time.


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## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

The primary belief of Christianity is that a Jewish man named Jesus showed up at the beginning of what is now known as the first century, made some very unique claims, performed any number of miracles, was crucified by the Romans, and came back from the dead three days later. His followers at the time believed he was who he said he was, the "lamb of God" who came to be sacrificed for the sins of the whole world.

Now, just because they believed it, doesn't make it true. And just because Jesus claimed a unique relationship to God and man doesn't necessarily make his claims true either. But this is undeniably true: He eiter was or was not who he claimed to be. There is no disputing among any group of historians, religions, or any other group that Jesus actually walked the planet as a real person. So who do you think Jesus really was? This is a crucial question for believers and nonbelievers because no matter which side of the fence you fall on, your current life is effected and quite possible your eternal life too depending who turns out to be right. 

This important question for everybody really only has 4 possible answers

1. Jesus was lying about himself the whole time. So in summary - Jesus was a liar.

2. Jesus was crazy meaning he really thought he was who he claimed to be, but he wasn't. He just wasn't mentally able to realize the difference. He fooled a lot of people who continued to believe his story even after he died which seemingly would have contradicted his whole story.

3. Jesus never said any of the stuff that is written. His followers made it all up after Jesus died on the cross. Just remember that all of his followers who would've been spreading these false stories did not live happily ever after because of them sharing these stories which would not have been true any way.

4.Lastly, Jesus was who he claimed to be - The Son of God who came to take away the sins of the world for all who believed. 

It can be easy to not believe in a God that you can see or hear much less prove exists, but what about Jesus. Who do you believe Jesus really was?


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Tortuga said:


> I only got one problem with all of this... I admit that I'm a heathen/Methodist but I got a lot of friends that are of other religious faiths. If we gotta accept Jesus as our Saviour to get into Heaven..what are we gonna do with all the other folks..
> 
> "Your either for me or against me' is what Christ said. Christ was very clear about the meaning when he said this.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be sarcastic, degrading, mean or even portray that I have something others don't. This is not the case. I do learn a lot from these discussions though.


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## Jungle_Jim (Nov 16, 2007)

There is only one sin that can separate us from God and send a person to hell. "What is Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit?," The only unforgivable sin is refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Anyone who turns to Jesus for forgiveness is made righteous by his blood (Romans 5:9) which covers our sinâ€"past, present and future.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Jungle_Jim said:


> There is only one sin that can separate us from God and send a person to hell. "What is Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit?," The only unforgivable sin is refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Anyone who turns to Jesus for forgiveness is made righteous by his blood (Romans 5:9) which covers our sinâ€"past, present and future.


The real problem is that we've got so many varied definitions of what constitutes acceptance here.


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

A wise man once told me that all I really needed to know about God is that I wasn't him.


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## Spooley (Feb 24, 2013)

*Been there done that*



Tortuga said:


> I only got one problem with all of this... I admit that I'm a heathen/Methodist but I got a lot of friends that are of other religious faiths. If we gotta accept Jesus as our Saviour to get into Heaven..what are we gonna do with all the other folks.. Now..far as the muslims go...they can all go to hell as far as I am concerned...but I got a lot of Jewish friends.. What's gonna happen to them? I think there are probably about 20 million of them worldwide. Do they all have to go to hell?.. If so..it's gonna get pretty crowded down there...
> 
> Why don't we all just pick our own paths...and respect the fact that maybe we might be missing something as far as trying to make everyone think our own way ? I hope there is a Heaven...and hope I get 'admission'...and I am likely gonna find out sooner than most of our young evangelists on here...but I really wonder about the billions of people around the world that have different views....
> 
> .02


You should know that I am an evangelical missionary and a fisher of men. The Lord has sent to me over 30 countries, mostly muslim-faithed for His purpose. God has his people in all countries saving some just as He told us that he would save from every tongue, tribe, and nation. As for the numbers that will NOT be saved, yes they are enormous. Many are called, but few are chosen.

Once you accept Jesus Christ into your hearts you receive the Holy Spirit as a deposit on your salvation and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free; otherwise, a person is only guessing and placing a false hope on hope. In other words 'lost' just like the song 'Amazing Grace' states.

You who judge God as only a god of love do not know God personally. If you did know God you would have a personal relationship with him through Jesus Christ. He is our access to the Father.

My suggestion to those who try to fool themselves into believing that they are good enough to enter Heaven, think about a trial test. If you are correct that good people get into Heaven without being saved, then why would you NOT give Jesus Christ a try and see what a difference there is while you can still make that choice. Just remember, eternity is forever and Satan is a liar and the father of lies so stop believing his lies for Pete's sake already.

Make the right decision. If you are afraid to make the right decision, then the devil has you right where he wants you.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

I guess it was inevitable that this thread would end up being dominated by hardcore evangelism..


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

dwilliams35 said:


> I guess it was inevitable that this thread would end up being dominated by hardcore evangelism..


Our God Reigns.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

mastercylinder said:


> We certainly have been through this before, and what is wrong with me still having questions?
> 
> There is nothing wrong with having questions MC. That tells me you are interested and you are being open minded about the subject.
> 
> ...


Me too, it depends on the context in which you mean. There are many words that describe the word "money". Currency, dollar, assets, pennies, quarters.. You know where I am going and I know what you meant with the statement. I understand we are labeled "sheeple".. I'm good with that. At least there is no question what I stand for.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

So God would punish someone for using the brain that God gave them, even though that person was not selfish and really tried to help others? Somehow that doesn't make sense to me. To me our beliefs are opinions.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

bubbas kenner said:


> Our God Reigns.


 Yep, he sure does. I wonder just how he would approach this thread, though. There's nothing like some good old evangelizing to ruin a perfectly good theological discussion.


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## Gemini8 (Jun 29, 2013)

TrueblueTexican said:


> Was in TORMENT most of his adult life, he was a brilliant comedian, and could SEE a lot of funny in human circumstances. He lived the tragedy through humor, I don't know if he had a relationship with his Creator.
> 
> He posed the question, I hope there is laughter in Heaven. Well certainly there must be, have you ever looked at a duck billed platypus? Or many of the strange funny looking Creatures left alive today? I would think God who could imagine matter to create what our Scientists measure as the "Big Bang" would not also have humor we can't even begin to fathom.
> 
> Humanity attempts to put the God of Creation into a box of our puny understanding , just is't possible -


Since it is the ultimate place of perfection & everlasting life, I believe there will be much laughter in Heaven.

As far as Robin Williams, I saw an interview he did just a few weeks before his death, and I feel he had a relationship with God.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Hmmmm*



Whitebassfisher said:


> So God would punish someone for using the brain that God gave them, even though that person was not selfish and really tried to help others? Somehow that doesn't make sense to me. To me our beliefs are opinions.


God of Creation holds natural man to a final death. Man fell from Gods grace, due to disobedience and temptation by a fallen angel.

Man is punished for what he knows to be true and decides to reject. Much more so man places himself in torment and punishment. Whether you or anyone living today likes it or not you were CREATED in your mothers womb, with a God breathed SPIRIT that testifies to your "thoughtful" brain daily.

Robin Williams knew that - he kicked against that SPIRIT, he was likely picked to use his talents for good and rejected his SPIRIT most of his life. People fall ill and sick due to rejecting their own SPIRIT STRIVING for peace and belonging with THE God OF Creation.

What God will do with people who never heard the Gospel message is up to God. But you have to ask yourself WHY even the most primitive of people were led to WORSHIP.

What separates man from an animal and why does /did man sacrifice to altars and Gods he could not see -- long before Christendom? COULD it be that mans PRIMARY purpose in life was WORSHIP?

God is a just ruler over all we see, all we touch and all we can imagine - and over things we do not see.

My "belief" is that fish live under the water, even if its so muddy I can't see them. Experience and years of study has led me to this belief - its not an opinion, its a fact.

Its very sad that many of the most brilliant minds of our time have so little faith. Equally sad that at the end of their days they likely found answers that. like Lazarus in Christs parable, they would have liked to warn the faithless about.

That "punishment" is reversible in your physical lifetime, it seems equally strange to me that people hearing their SPIRIT cry out for RELIEF, would also REJECT a message of GOOD NEWS, for lack of faith.

Lord move the SPIRIT of each an every person reading these threads - give them time !!!


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## CTone (Jul 23, 2013)

TrueblueTexican said:


> God of Creation holds natural man to a final death. Man fell from Gods grace, due to disobedience and temptation by a fallen angel.
> 
> Man is punished for what he knows to be true and decides to reject. Much more so man places himself in torment and punishment. Whether you or anyone living today likes it or not you were CREATED in your mothers womb, with a God breathed SPIRIT that testifies to your "thoughtful" brain daily.
> 
> ...


I respect your right to believe what you want, and it is a fact that you believe this things, but belief alone does not make these claims true.
From where I stand the promise of heaven is without proof.
If you choose to hope for that, great.
My reward for being a good person, is its own reward.


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## catfish101 (Aug 13, 2007)

A little humor, When Jesus went to the land across the see and a man came at him who had many legions and Jesus casted them out of the man and into a herd of swine and they ran off a clift and died. Best I can tell that was the only case of sui cide I can find.


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

All I know is that if you believe in God and live your life through this said God, you better hope you picked the right God (There are what,............like a thousand different God's that religions worldwide worship?) 

From what has been preached to me over the years, there is ONLY ONE. 

It's not exactly Texas Lotto odds but if you understand basic math, odds are,....................well,..............I digress. 


Good Luck!!


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## bg (May 21, 2004)

Whitebassfisher said:


> So God would punish someone for using the brain that God gave them, even though that person was not selfish and really tried to help others? Somehow that doesn't make sense to me. To me our beliefs are opinions.


I used to have a lot of trouble with that as well, until I realized that none of us are really good. We all sin in some way and to God, all sins are equal but only one is unforgivable. The verse below sums up God's view on it but there is a lot more to research if you really want to know. Take the time to really dig into what is required for salvation and you'll be able to reconcile this on our own using the brain that God gave you, if you go into it with an open mind. The answers are in the book for anyone to find.
* Ephesians 2:8-9English Standard Version (ESV)*

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


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## bg (May 21, 2004)

Main Frame 8 said:


> All I know is that if you believe in God and live your life through this said God, you better hope you picked the right God (There are what,............like a thousand different God's that religions worldwide worship?)
> 
> From what has been preached to me over the years, there is ONLY ONE.
> 
> ...


Yes but, all religions except one require you to "earn" your way to paradise. In Christianity, the work has been done for you, all you have to do is accept the gift and let it grow within you.

Let me ask you this, what religions do good in the world? Sure Christians do good with the motive of saving others but Christian ministry comes from acts of genuine love first. I don't see Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, etc. relief ministries in the worst places of the world, I see Christians. That's not to say Christians are perfect, far from it, but they are the ones that are out there trying to improve the world.


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## CTone (Jul 23, 2013)

There are several Muslim relief charities, easy to find if you look. I always wondered why some Christian churches go all over the world when there are people in the ole USA need help. I suspect it is mainly to spread the "message", more than help the indigenous population. Why else would they need to build churches.
I always though the Catholic Church was flush enough to end much of the water problems in Africa, but their concern is making sure people do not use condoms.
This is just my opinion of course.


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## En Fuego (Jul 26, 2006)

The problem I have is that most people of FAITH have confused RELIGION, or the way THEY choose to follow God with FAITH. There has been no single greater source of pain and suffering on the face of the planet than that of Organized Religion. For you zealot Chrisitan's out there, all Jesus required is where "Two or more gather in my name.." yet you feel the need to join up with thousands of like minded zealots that will tell you that you will absolutely GO TO HELL AND BURN, if you, wait for it...... don't believe as THEY DO, NOT as God mandated, but as THEY DO. Because someone from THIER church read and interpreted things in a certain way, now THAT is the ONLY WAY - all other ways are WRONG and you will BURN IN HELL. 

I find it comical that the same people who will RAIL on you for not being open minded enough to receive God as THEY SEE FIT, are usually THE most close-minded people in the world!!

If you have ANY questions about the way they believe, then the IMMEDIATE catch all answer is "I'm right and if you don't believe the exact same thing I do then you will burn in Hell".
Really??? Your faith THAT weak that it can't stand up to a couple of questions without the "You will go to hell" trump card?

I have a great deal of faith in the creator, and live my life as a man of morals, but I detest all organized religion with a PASSION.


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## Walkin' Jack (May 20, 2004)

Tortuga said:


> Don't be too sure about that, Jackson.. I made a deal with Ranch on an older thread to get in touch with him if I can...when my time comes...
> 
> Stand by......


I te'ya what Jim, Miss Pam and I were talking about it one day and I told her this and I believe it as much as I can believe anything. If I go first we will know for sure because if it is at all possible I'll come back to her. In what ever form is possible. If I don't make it then you can pretty well be assured that it is NOT possible.

I be standin' by.


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## bg (May 21, 2004)

En Fuego said:


> The problem I have is that most people of FAITH have confused RELIGION, or the way THEY choose to follow God with FAITH. There has been no single greater source of pain and suffering on the face of the planet than that of Organized Religion. For you zealot Chrisitan's out there, all Jesus required is where "Two or more gather in my name.." yet you feel the need to join up with thousands of like minded zealots that will tell you that you will absolutely GO TO HELL AND BURN, if you, wait for it...... don't believe as THEY DO, NOT as God mandated, but as THEY DO. Because someone from THIER church read and interpreted things in a certain way, now THAT is the ONLY WAY - all other ways are WRONG and you will BURN IN HELL.
> 
> I find it comical that the same people who will RAIL on you for not being open minded enough to receive God as THEY SEE FIT, are usually THE most close-minded people in the world!!
> 
> ...


I'm sorry your experiences have been like that, there are definitely some churches that are that way and it's unfortunate. The church I attend says that what the Bible says is the final word and that we should read, interpret and understand for ourselves. They will readily offer their insight and assistance in theological discussions but not once has anyone told me I must believe what they tell me, they've always said this is what they believe but I should read the Bible for myself and come to my own conclusions. I wish all churches were that way but unfortunately, it isn't so. The Bible warns about false teachers using the guise of the church to lead others astray and I think a lot of that definitely goes on.

I've never in my life told anyone they were going to Hell. I don't know their heart so it's certainly not my place to make that call, and I'm grateful for that. Who would really want that responsibility?


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## bg (May 21, 2004)

CTone said:


> There are several Muslim relief charities, easy to find if you look. I always wondered why some Christian churches go all over the world when there are people in the ole USA need help. I suspect it is mainly to spread the "message", more than help the indigenous population. Why else would they need to build churches.
> I always though the Catholic Church was flush enough to end much of the water problems in Africa, but their concern is making sure people do not use condoms.
> This is just my opinion of course.


I'll admit I haven't looked for them, my point was you don't hear about them without specifically seeking them out.

The message is a big part of traveling the world to provide assistance, part of the directive from Christ was to go forth and make disciples of all nations. Nobody does anything for anyone just for the sake of doing it and that's true of Christian ministry as well. In most cases, the building of a church and the work done by those groups leaves the places they touch better than before they arrived, there are of course exceptions to every rule but by in large, Christian ministry organizations are not getting rich (or doing much more than barely surviving) from these activities. There is a lot of work done in the states as well. Our church is involved in a ministry in a very rough neighborhood on the North side of Houston that has successfully helped several young men and women escape from a life of poverty and teach them that drugs and crime are not the guaranteed future of their lives. They also do an annual trip to Port Isabel to do ministry work there, along with supporting an orphanage in Liberia, several churches in Africa and a missionary group in Honduras, both financially and through mission trips made by our congregation.

I was raised a Catholic and believe that the Catholic church does do a lot of good in the world but I also agree with your point that they are financed well enough that they could do a great deal more. I think one of their biggest hesitations is that much of what they have in the way of wealth is in the form of historical religious artifacts that they are very reluctant to let go. I can see their attachment to those items but it kind of reminds of the parable of the rich man. Still, you can't ignore the good that they do and condemn them simply on the fact that they could do more. When it really comes down to it, we could all do more.


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## driftwood2 (Jun 6, 2005)

En Fuego said:


> The problem I have is that most people of FAITH have confused RELIGION, or the way THEY choose to follow God with FAITH. There has been no single greater source of pain and suffering on the face of the planet than that of Organized Religion. For you zealot Chrisitan's out there, all Jesus required is where "Two or more gather in my name.." yet you feel the need to join up with thousands of like minded zealots that will tell you that you will absolutely GO TO HELL AND BURN, if you, wait for it...... don't believe as THEY DO, NOT as God mandated, but as THEY DO. Because someone from THIER church read and interpreted things in a certain way, now THAT is the ONLY WAY - all other ways are WRONG and you will BURN IN HELL.
> 
> I find it comical that the same people who will RAIL on you for not being open minded enough to receive God as THEY SEE FIT, are usually THE most close-minded people in the world!!
> 
> ...


People are sheep. Even the ones that think they are highly educated.
The native Americans probably had a better understanding of Jesus's teaching and they didn't even know he existed.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*A terrible picture*

But bear with me -

A caged wild animal, surrounded on six sides by unfamiliar wire, with beings he knows not, only that they inflict pain, the animal throws itself repeatedly against the cage wire, jumping twisting to find a way out of this prison,till it is bleeding, subdued , and finally just gives up--

THIS is MANS Spirit - caged and tied to a body that abuses itself, at its own peril, the Spirit speaks but man refuses to listen. It beats against a prison as surely as the caged animal does, trying to get its keepers attention. Even though the cage keeper KNOWS on a deeper level that "something" is trying to tell them something important. Man does not want to heed this SPIRIT dwelling within us. We constantly , desperately attempt to drown, and subdue what is GOD BREATHED in us. For example look at children, innocence, wonder, excitement, curiosity, not yet burdened with the worlds cares (well at least a lot of them with protective parents). Their spirit is for the moment safe - until that child is able to tell good from bad and realizes right from wrong -

Mankind refuses to listen, is too busy to stop to listen, or fills that SPIRIT shaped hole in their psyche, with the temptations of "feel good". At some point in all adult lives , like the caged animal, the SPIRIT quits STRIVING to drive the host toward God.

You hear said over and over "I had a "gut" feeling, or I had a premonition, or something "creeped" you out. Man does not know from sic em, how many times that "feeling" saved their corporate life - yet we do not recognize those instances for what they are - your SPIRIT shouting a warning to your sub-conscious.

But for a faith the size of a mustard seed -

We lack the wonderment of children.

BE AS A CHILD - and quit acting as if you really know what your destiny is, FAITH is an active WORK - without exercise it dwindles to nothing.

Rail against the GOD OF CREATION all you want - he was there before the cosmos and loves his Creation - his hand always extended to those who sit still long enough to LISTEN and Follow him.

WHY GOD DO I EXIST? Its a good question, one all men generally ask at some point in their lives, where do i fit in, whats my purpose, does God really exist or even care about such insignificant things?

The ANSWER is there for those who would seek


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## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

I have a profound respect for those of faith.

And I feel sorry for those who think THEY know Gods will.


Live your life by your beliefs but "judge not lest ye be judged"

In my honest opinion Robin Williams has a much better chance of getting by the pearly gates than many of those posting here...


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## Ledslacks (Jul 21, 2009)

If he does end up in a Hell, it is unwarranted. He brought so much joy to this world, and that is the best thing you can do in this life. I really like the soldier jumping on a grenade scenario. Too many people base too much on a single book. Same thing the Muslims do. Fools thinking they are doing good.


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## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

If there is a heaven, then there has to be a God and a creator. The 'big bang' couldn't have created heaven too and the soul being raised from the dead and the travel from here to there after you dead. So if there is a heaven that God created, He gets to make the rules on who and why you get to go and you have to think he is smarter than we are. 

I will ask the question one last time, Who do you think Jesus really is? 

Remember, there is no historical debate from any group that says Jesus wasn't a real person that walked planet earth and there are more historical facts that support his life on earth than most cultural history of that time. That doesn't prove he was the Son of God, but if not then who was he? So which of the following do you think Jesus was?

1. Jesus was lying about himself the whole time. So in summary - Jesus was a liar.

2. Jesus was crazy meaning he really thought he was who he claimed to be, but he wasn't. He just wasn't mentally able to realize the difference. He fooled a lot of people who continued to believe his story even after he died which seemingly would have contradicted his whole story.

3. Jesus never said any of the stuff that is written. His followers made it all up after Jesus died on the cross. Just remember that all of his followers who would've been spreading these false stories did not live happily ever after because of them sharing these stories which would not have been true any way.

4.Lastly, Jesus was who he claimed to be - The Son of God who came to take away the sins of the world for all who believed.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*In case you think this is a new issue*

In case you think the questioning of religion and faith is a new sign of our times. It is not. There was a pretty famous thinker in his day (born 1833, died 1899) named Robert G. Ingersoll. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_G._Ingersoll


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## cwbycrshr (May 23, 2013)

*A diffrent perspective*

A FB friend put this on his wall and I found it very interesting.

So the tragic death of Robin Williams has stirred some thoughts for me. Initially, after hearing the news of his passing, I was incredibly saddened and sorrowful by the loss of such an amazing actor, and because of a belief I have had for many years.

In my personal doctrine of religion, it has been my specific belief that suicide is the unforgivable sin that leads directly to damnation. It was m...y thought that if you ended your own life that you went directly to Hell. And because of this belief, I was tremendously saddened by Williams' passing, just thinking that he wasn't going to be there in heaven. He wasn't going to be entertaining the angels, or family and friends of mine that I wait to see one day. I thought that he was no longer able to claim that gloriousness of meeting the Father. And such thoughts caused me to search for an answer.

We discusses this at work and no one had a particular answer to this question: Do you go to Hell if you take your own life?

Well, after digging into the word, prayer, and a little searching I found what I was looking for. I found the answer to the above question. It wasn't what I expected at all. But it was what I already knew. And the best part for me, is that all I had to do to help get me into the mindset of looking for this answer was to remember the lesson my youngest son brought home from Sunday school just two days ago.

When I walked back to get my newly promoted Kindergartner, his teacher told me that he had a word for me. Surprised, I asked him what it was. Without any hesitation, he loudly said (if you know my Maddox he is a loud child so surprises there, right?), He said, "Nothing". I said "that's your word, 'nothing'?".

"Yup", he came back sharply. So the teacher leaned down and asked him to tell me what the word meant. Instantly, and without hesitation again, he proclaimed, "Nothing can separate us from God's love"! (Reference Romans 8:38-39) Quite taken back and shocked that he just belted out that summary of a Bible verse, my eyes filled with tears and my heart with joy.

So looking at the scripture and researching the details of eternal damnation due to an act of suicide, and remembering the words of a five year old, maybe I have changed my thoughts altogether about the subject. Which is quite a paradigm shift because as I mentioned, I'd held these beliefs for many years.

So in applying what Maddox had said to this situation and looking further at scripture, I am convinced that suicide doesn't send you to Hell. Is it a sin? Absolutely--because it is by definition murder--murder of one's self. But it's not eternal damnation.

In searching for answers I was reminded that there is only one sin that can separate us from God. And, that is refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior! Anyone who turns to Jesus for forgiveness is made righteous by His blood (Romans 5:9) which covers all sin--past, present, and future.

In conclusion, it bears repeating--suicide is a terrible tragedy, but it does not negate the Lord's act of redemption. Our salvation rests securely in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. So then, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13, NIV)


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Are you a "God fearing person"?
> 
> Or do you have "A loving God"?
> 
> It just seems to me that many on here judge others as if they think they are God. The most any of us have are educated opinions.


Godly fear, or a God fearing person, is not someone that is morbidly afraid of God because they think they may be punished in a fiery hell. That fear is a fear of displeasing Him, because of a deep love for Him.

(1 John 4:8) Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.
God is the epitome of love. No one can or has shown love like God.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Barbarian said:


> If you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you get eternity with him in Heaven. There is no need to ask for forgiveness and 'die clean'. What if you were on your death bed and the finest female you've ever seen was your nurse and she walked in and undressed in front of you? Before you had time to figure out your brain was committing adultery and close your eyes and ask for forgiveness, you died. Or somebody did something to you that made you as mad as you have ever been and you suddenly died. Jesus equated that anger to murder. Would the timing of these situations change your eternal destination - NOPE!!.
> 
> Our entry into heaven is not based upon asking for forgiveness from our sins especially at the very last second before we die. What an unfair way to have to live this life. What an impossible way to have to live this live when you read what Jesus and our Father actually considers sin. A ticket to Heaven only comes by one way
> Romans
> ...


According to the scriptures I do not think your first statement is correct.

1Corinthians 6:9â€¯Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit Godâ€™s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10â€¯thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit Godâ€™s Kingdom.

There are several scriptures that indicate this. Murder is included. Of course repentance and turning away from that course of action show forgiveness is possible.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

bg said:


> The Jews are a special case, they have always been God's chosen people and the coming of Christ did not affect his covenant with them. There's a LOT of scripture that covers this, I'm unfortunately not a biblical scholar so I can't point you to it but the bottom line is they're covered. We were adopted into the covenant through our faith in and acceptance of Christ.


The Jews at one time were God's chosen people. That changed when they, as a people, denied that Jesus was the Messiah, and had him put to death.

The new covenant was established in the upper room the night before Jesus death. It was the formation of the Christian Congregation. With it the Mosaic Law was done away with, and the covenant with the Jews no longer existed.

You can find this account in the gospel accounts as well as other scriptures. 2 Corinthians 3:4,5 summarize it quite well.

4â€¯We have this sort of confidence toward God through the Christ. 5â€¯Not that we of ourselves are adequately qualified to consider that anything comes from us, but our being adequately qualified comes from God, 6â€¯who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive.

This opened the door to all that wanted to be disciples of Christ, not just one nation.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

As far as Robin Williams is concerned, that will be decided by God. Murder is a sin and suicide is self murder. Many murderers have repented and will be saved. Look at the apostle Paul, who before his conversion, was a persecutor of God's people and approved of the stoning of Stephen. Acts 8:1 â€‚Saul (Paul), for his part, approved of his murder.

Because suicide is self murder, you cannot repent. That does not mean you cannot be saved. God can look into everyone's heart and know what they are going through. Whatever God decides will be just and righteous, he knows us better than we know ourselves. 

1 John 3: 19,20 19â€¯By this we will know that we originate with the truth, and we will assure our hearts before him 20â€¯regarding whatever our hearts may condemn us in, because God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.


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## bluefin (Aug 16, 2005)

I think some on here would cast suicide as the epitome of all sins.
What about those who threw themselves out of the Twin Towers or the man who was consumed with cancer unable to care for himself?
Not saying it's right or wrong but let's turn it over to God's grace.

I've watched several shows about Mr. Williams passing and one thing has stood clear, it's that he couldn't turn his mind off. It was always in high gear. Because of that he turned to alcohol and drugs - not the other way around. He just wanted a pause.
He did a cartoon show where he played over 50 characters - one show! In Good Morning Viet Nam he had no script when he did the parts in front of the microphone. The director just let him say whatever was on his mind. Amazing what he did with that talent.
Strange to think that a man w/ so many blessings would want just one thing everyone else possesses - to be able to turn the button off for just a while.


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## Spirit (Nov 19, 2008)

Fact: Suicide is not addressed in the Bible from a point of being sinful or not. There are several suicides that take place in the Bible. Their ultimate place of residence is not stated. 

Fact: None of us know the mind of God so we cannot answer this question authoritatively.

Fact: God so loved this world that he gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. (Spirit's Reasoning: If he loved us enough to give us his Son, chances are he loves us enough to forgive those who due to a momentary weakness extinguish their life.)

Fact: This conversation will get into doctrine vs. what's in The Book and the faith you were raised in will determine your belief on the subject. (Some religions teach "once saved, always saved", some teach "once saved, all sin is forgiven forever without repenting" while others teach "suicide is the ultimate sin and cannot be forgiven" and then there are a few that say "you are not saved unless you attend our church and he didn't so the whole conversation is a waste of time". )

Fact: None of us will know the answer to this question until we go to meet our maker.

My Belief: We will be judged as a whole, not just on one act alone. I think there are very few people who die without sin of some kind in their life and we are going to be judged by a "just and loving" God. Iow, suicide is just one factor ... what was done by the individual to promote the Kingdom of Heaven while on this earth will also come into play. Did they show God's love, did they spread God's word, did they live a Christlike life? Kind of like the words to an old song ... "if I live a holy life, shun the wrong and do the right, I know the Lord will make a way for me".


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## JShupe (Oct 17, 2004)

END OF THREAD!

Well said.


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## txdukklr (Jun 30, 2013)

jimk said:


> There is only one "unpardonable" sin and it's not suicide.


yes thats right 100%

A believer of Jesus the blood paid for all of our sins. . . . . its His grace that covers them. He re-wrote the penalties of sin in that moment on calvary.


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## txdukklr (Jun 30, 2013)

Spirit said:


> Fact: Suicide is not addressed in the Bible from a point of being sinful or not. There are several suicides that take place in the Bible. Their ultimate place of residence is not stated.
> 
> Fact: None of us know the mind of God so we cannot answer this question authoritatively.
> 
> ...


great post but I believe Jesus has stepped up as our advocate. In no way does that allow sin . . . . it forgives it.


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## jimk (May 28, 2004)

Not actually related to this post, but interesting. in about 74 AD, *960* Jewish rebels committed "mass suicide" on the mountaintop called Masada, rather than be taken by the Roman soldiers.

They elected to die rather than be taken but it wasn't really "mass suicide." Since suicide was against Jewish Law, only the last one alive committed suicide.


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## Bozo (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, all I know is that whether you want to point fingers at Robin Williams, the media or whomever, the recent glamorization of suicide will increase the amount of suicides that occur over the next several months. 

People who "understand" suicide and release those that have committed it will only encourage those that have thought about it but haven't acted on the thoughts. 

This is true to me today because we learned this morning that one of our coworkers took his life yesterday. He has been down, we've all tried to do what we could to help, encouraged him, sought assistance, made sure he knew we all cared, but that didn't prevent him from leaving his two young adult children alone now that he is gone and was their only surviving parent. 

He's been this way for over a year and a half, but only until now after all the glitz and glamour by the media did he act. 

I can only pray for his soul and for his kids well being now. I do know that my God expects me to live as long as I possibly can and not to do so would be a sin.


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## Spirit (Nov 19, 2008)

Bozo said:


> ....
> 
> I can only pray for his soul and for his kids well being now. I do know that my God expects me to live as long as I possibly can and not to do so would be a sin.


Sorry about your friend. Prayers for his kids .. extremely sad.

I agree with your logic on glamorization and especially your last statement.


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## FishingMudGuy (Aug 13, 2014)

Bozo said:


> Well, all I know is that whether you want to point fingers at Robin Williams, the media or whomever, the recent glamorization of suicide will increase the amount of suicides that occur over the next several months.
> 
> People who "understand" suicide and release those that have committed it will only encourage those that have thought about it but haven't acted on the thoughts.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your co-worker. I sure hope others don't follow.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

I despise suicide.. Nobody wins.


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## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

Spirit said:


> My Belief: We will be judged as a whole, not just on one act alone. I think there are very few people who die without sin of some kind in their life and we are going to be judged by a "just and loving" God. Iow, suicide is just one factor ... what was done by the individual to promote the Kingdom of Heaven while on this earth will also come into play. Did they show God's love, did they spread God's word, did they live a Christlike life? Kind of like the words to an old song ... "if I live a holy life, shun the wrong and do the right, I know the Lord will make a way for me".


Just think about this - if that is correct, then why did Jesus come? And does that mean Jesus was a liar or a lunatic or were the Apostles all liars? Jesus made claim after claim that contradicts this way of thinking and it means that there was no need for God to send His Son to die such a brutal death if we can get there on our own. It can't go both ways. I am not going to try and persuade one way or the other, but it has to be either / or. I am just asking some of you to really think about and honestly evaluate what you do believe.


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## poppadawg (Aug 10, 2007)

95% of religions/denomintions are baloney. They have to be in order for mine to be the right one. Every good Christian knows that only the exactly right religion coupled with the exactly right denomination gets to go to heaven. Everybody else is a bad Christian and burns in hell. Or least that is the way it was always explained to me


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## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

*What do you do in a case like this ???*

"_WASHINGTON â€" __The White House announced Friday that a Pennsylvania soldier who jumped on top of a grenade in Iraq and saved the lives of his comrades will posthumously receive the Medal of Honor._

_The nation's highest military honor will be given to 19-year-old Army Pfc. Ross McGinnis of Knox, Pa., on June 2._

_McGinnis "distinguished himself by extraordinary heroism," said White House deputy press secretary Tony Fratto._

_McGinnis was perched in the gunner's hatch of a Humvee when a grenade sailed past him and into the truck where four other soldiers sat. He shouted a warning to the others, then jumped on the grenade. The grenade, which was lodged near the vehicle's radio, blew up and killed him._

_Lt. Col. Anne Edgecomb, an Army spokeswoman, said McGinnis easily could have jumped out of the truck and saved himself._

_"The instinct is, jump out of the vehicle, but his four buddies were in the vehicle with him ... and he chose to place himself on top of the grenade and absorb the impact, and it saved their lives," Edgecomb said._

_McGinnis was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 26th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division, in Schweinfurt, Germany._

_He died on Dec. 4, 2006."_


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Tortuga said:


> "_WASHINGTON â€" __The White House announced Friday that a Pennsylvania soldier who jumped on top of a grenade in Iraq and saved the lives of his comrades will posthumously receive the Medal of Honor._
> 
> _The nation's highest military honor will be given to 19-year-old Army Pfc. Ross McGinnis of Knox, Pa., on June 2._
> 
> ...


Per many on here, it is an absolute *fact* that Army Pfc Ross McGinnis will burn in hell forever. They have posted all the necessary *proof*. No need to even ask that question Tortuga.


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## Spirit (Nov 19, 2008)

Barbarian said:


> Just think about this - if that is correct, then why did Jesus come? And does that mean Jesus was a liar or a lunatic or were the Apostles all liars? Jesus made claim after claim that contradicts this way of thinking and it means that there was no need for God to send His Son to die such a brutal death if we can get there on our own. It can't go both ways. I am not going to try and persuade one way or the other, but it has to be either / or. I am just asking some of you to really think about and honestly evaluate what you do believe.


Just to clarify, I wasn't saying we can get there on our own .. unless we repent of our sins, ask forgiveness and invite Jesus into our life and heart, professing him as Lord and Saviour, we will not make Heaven. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."


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## BertS (May 21, 2004)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Per many on here, it is an absolute *fact* that Army Pfc Ross McGinnis will burn in hell forever. They have posted all the necessary *proof*. No need to even ask that question Tortuga.


try not to muddy the water.....

John 15:13


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## Spirit (Nov 19, 2008)

Whitebassfisher said:


> Per many on here, it is an absolute *fact* that Army Pfc Ross McGinnis will burn in hell forever. They have posted all the necessary *proof*. No need to even ask that question Tortuga.


John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

This soldier was a true friend and hero.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*No greater love John 15:13*

13. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down oneâ€™s life for oneâ€™s friends.

I suspect the soldier has a ringside seat to the action now.

Only God will judge - at the end of your life an accounting will be taken, and a JUST and HOLY God will either allow you entry to his kingdom - OR SAY - (even to the self righteous) depart from me , I never knew you.

Many will claim kinship with God, sit in church pews, preach from pulpits, and will also hear the latter -

Suicide is a terrible act - it leaves behind so much pain and agony. So many questions WHY , what could I have done to help this person?

God's Word records seven suicides - look it up for yourself

But what does the Bible say about taking your own life? It is instructional for LIVING

God has a great plan for your life. God has created us in His image (Genesis 1:26-27). He created us for a *purpose*. God has a specific plan in mind for everyone.

"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" (Jeremiah 29:11).
God's plan is for life, not death. The Bible teaches that both physical and spiritual death are the result of our sin and disobedience to God, but eternal life is a *gift* to those who receive it.

For the wages of *sin* is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23).

Jesus taught that death and destruction are the work of â€œthe thiefâ€ (Lucifer). 
Jesus said :
The thief comes only to steal and destroy (John 10:10).

John 8:44 says that Lucifer is a â€œmurdererâ€ and the â€œfather of lies.â€ The feelings of despair that lead to suicide are caused by some of his lies.

Jesus wants us to have life. He said:

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full (John 10:10).
*Life belongs to God.*

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? *You are not* *your own, you were bought at a price.* Therefore honor God with your body (1 Corinthians 6:19-20).

I do not know how God will judge someone who has taken their own life - its best left up to God, not man who confounds and twists his word to us.


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## Spirit (Nov 19, 2008)

TrueblueTexican - says I must spread some or I'd have slimed ya. You posted many of the scriptures I wanted to share but didn't have time to look up chap & verse for. Excellent post!


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

Spirit said:


> TrueblueTexican - says I must spread some or I'd have slimed ya. You posted many of the scriptures I wanted to share but didn't have time to look up chap & verse for. Excellent post!


I had some green for you friend..Gods words are awesome.


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## Fish Specialist (Aug 20, 2012)

Have to add a few things to this thread as I am prompted to- 
And may you have the power to understand, as all Godâ€™s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God. Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. (â€­Ephesiansâ€¬ â€­3â€¬:â€­18-20â€¬ NLT)- scuicide is not the answer. We would all benefit from coming to a greater understanding Christ's love

â€œWatch out!â€ Jesus warned them. â€œBeware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.â€ (â€­Matthewâ€¬ â€­16â€¬:â€­6â€¬ NLT)-

We are NOT to be legalistic in our relationship with God. It takes the Grace out of the equation. If we do this we go back to relying on the law. The law has no power but to condemn. It CANNOT make us worthy. Only Jesus's blood makes us worthy. We do not know if Robins heart belonged to the king of kings. We can say, "but he sinned!!Suicide is not in Gods plan for us!" -true
But, I ask how many of you have stopped sinning since coming to faith? It would be a blatant lie to say you haven't. We all require more grace... The Advocate (Holy spirit) makes those deeds leave a bad taste in our mouths. On the other side of the coin we DESIRE to do what brings the Father glory!!

Jesus gets those who belong to him. NOTHING CAN COME BETWEEN CHRIST AND HIS FLOCK!!
However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. For it is my Fatherâ€™s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.â€ (â€­Johnâ€¬ â€­6â€¬:â€­37-40â€¬ NLT)
THIS IS TRUE COMFORT... We all deserve separation from God. But because of Grace.......


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## Privateer (Nov 28, 2009)

I've seen both and been to both...I'll take heaven any time!


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## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

I don't do religion. But I guarantee if I was diagnosed with a horrible incurable disease like ALS I would bite a bullet over putting my family through the financial, physical and mental hardship of a five year debilitating disease. 

Who's worse, me for taking my own life and minimizing the suffering of others or an all powerful deity that allows horrible diseases to decimate families?


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## Ledslacks (Jul 21, 2009)

perfectly said, ItsCatchy!!!


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Its Catchy said:


> I don't do religion. But I guarantee if I was diagnosed with a horrible incurable disease like ALS I would bite a bullet over putting my family through the financial, physical and mental hardship of a five year debilitating disease.
> 
> Who's worse, me for taking my own life and minimizing the suffering of others or an all powerful deity that allows horrible diseases to decimate families?


So you think it is God (an all powerful deity) that causes bad things to happen to people. It shows you do not know the scriptures. That is not the case at all. God DOES NOT cause bad things to happen, ever. He is righteous, just, and good. He is not capable of bad. "God is love."

You can blame it on a lot of things. But DO NOT blame it on God.


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## CTone (Jul 23, 2013)

shaggydog said:


> So you think it is God (an all powerful deity) that causes bad things to happen to people. It shows you do not know the scriptures. That is not the case at all. God DOES NOT cause bad things to happen, ever. He is righteous, just, and good. He is not capable of bad. "God is love."
> 
> You can blame it on a lot of things. But DO NOT blame it on God.


I will respond by quoting the Greek philosopher Epicurus.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?


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## finkikin (Jul 8, 2011)

Spirit said:


> TrueblueTexican - says I must spread some or I'd have slimed ya. You posted many of the scriptures I wanted to share but didn't have time to look up chap & verse for. Excellent post!


I slimed him for ya.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

CTone said:


> I will respond by quoting the Greek philosopher Epicurus.
> 
> Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> ...


The question of sovereignty was raised in the garden of Eden. Does God have the right to rule man? God could have wiped Adam and Eve from the earth and started over, but that would have not answered the question. Remember there were many spirit creatures looking on to see how God would respond.

All you have to do is look around and see that man has a hard time governing himself. For the most part he has turned away from God, and looks to man for answers that man has no answer for. The scriptures are very clear that man cannot direct his own steps (Jeremiah 10:23) When that question is answered to God's satisfaction he will act.

He is able, willing, and will act in His own time. As the creator He definitely has the right to rule.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*Begs questions*



CTone said:


> I will respond by quoting the Greek philosopher Epicurus.
> 
> Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> ...


God does not command humanity - humanity lives in a test tube crucible, under pressure, heat, and the ruler of the air (lucifer) who constantly confounds those who are weak -

Man is purified by task, God accepts you as you are, by admission thru a belief in Christ Jesus teachings. Certainly GOD is ever in control, but he waits for FAITHFUL humanity to follow his tenets.

The question CTone is would you hire someone who won't follow your instructions? Neither would a HOLY God allow entry to his Kingdom to those who refuse - Lucifer was cast out from Gods Kingdom - God didn't destroy him at the end of that war - I can't even begin to fathom why GOD didn't just destroy that part of his Creation - but I suspect as part of his plan for humanity with a free will, it was useful in purifying those who could be admitted -

Admittedly its hard to understand - because we can't don't have the brain capacity to do so - so you have the CHOICE to accept on faith or reject the test altogether - pass/fail - its your choice.

God has DESTROYED humanity once, he has destroyed entire cities, he has wiped out armies, to say God is love(in the sense we understand love) is not totally truth, but certainly part of it - God is JUST, God said he is a jealous God - no false idols before him - yet we live in days when men "worship" a lot of things before God - lack of being obedient to Gods commandments over time has increased the worlds misery - humanity did that, not God - God knows the consequence of our actions, yet still loves his creation. formed in HIS IMAGE, that he made a way to triumph over circumstance - otherwise humanity deserves harsh judgement and ultimately is own destruction.

God isn't evil he is JUST - and he is patient, but he also could in a breath wipe man off the face of this earth-- evil and darkness is all around us, its how individually man handles this that's important -

It boils down to mans free will and choice - God knows man before formed in the womb - God would not see that Creation Destroyed - MAN destroys, OR Saves himself by choice.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

CTone said:


> I will respond by quoting the Greek philosopher Epicurus.
> 
> Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> ...


 Your Greek buddy doesn't acknowledge free will. You evidently don't either .

You don't get it and I wont convince you either.

Good luck with that


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

Stumpgrinder said:


> Your Greek buddy doesn't acknowledge free will. You evidently don't either .
> 
> You don't get it and I wont convince you either.
> 
> Good luck with that


Exactly.

God gives everyone free will and those who truly repent forgiveness.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Trueblue, I agree with most of what you say, except that God is love is not totally true. I do take exception with that. God is the epitome of love. No one knows or shows the love that God does...........and I do not question the scripture found a 1 John 4:8 â€¯Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.
I believe God absolutely is love.


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## Fish Specialist (Aug 20, 2012)

CTone said:


> I will respond by quoting the Greek philosopher Epicurus.
> 
> Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> ...


Does cold exist?
Have you ever been cold?
According to the law of physics- cold is simply the lack of heat. (Moving particles)

Does darkness exist? 
Darkness does not exist.
Darkness is the lack of light. We cannot study the darkness. Only light!!

In fact God did not create evil. 
Evil is the result of what happens when Man does not have Gods love in his heart.
-Albert Einstein

WE IN FACT ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVIL.

But, redemption was secured on the Cross for all who seek it. It is simple. Accept redemption through Christ Jesus and follow the guidance of the spirit. Be Saved. It is a choice.


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## CTone (Jul 23, 2013)

Stumpgrinder said:


> Your Greek buddy doesn't acknowledge free will. You evidently don't either .
> 
> You don't get it and I wont convince you either.
> 
> Good luck with that


I do know what free will is, all concepts of it.
I do get what you're saying, i just donâ€™t buy it.

The real question is, does god have free will?
If god has free will and can prevent tragedies from happening to good people, then is he evil?
If I choose not to prevent death when I can, am I evil, or is it me exercising my free will?
Should I be held accountable?
If so, then why should man be held to a higher standard than god?
If god has a plan, then what does having free will really do?


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## KeeperTX (Jul 8, 2013)

Some people will not accept the truth when it stares them right in the face. You can show them the obvious, but they have no intention of accepting it. In fact they are in total rebellion towards the highest authority. 

1 Corinthians 3:19 says
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*No arguement*



shaggydog said:


> Trueblue, I agree with most of what you say, except that God is love is not totally true. I do take exception with that. God is the epitome of love. No one knows or shows the love that God does...........and I do not question the scripture found a 1 John 4:8 â€¯Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.
> I believe God absolutely is love.


As humanity understands LOVE -sometimes God performs tough love on Christ-ians - if you don't think so try being a Christian choosing to sin and be unrepentant -

God does LOVE and the forms that love takes is sometimes physically and mentally unpleasant or even leads to premature death.

The people who do not believe in God don't have to worry about this aspect of Christ-ianity.

Saul why do you kick against the goads? -

As far as I know the God of Creation has never been cruel, evil, malevolent, powerless, or unjust. At times he REMOVES his protection and lets Lucifer sift after Lucifer gets permission to do so -- as in Job.

I prefer God is JUST and FAITHFUL to blanketing our Creator as LOVE as humanity understands love. Semantics mostly


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## poppadawg (Aug 10, 2007)

Fish Specialist said:


> Does cold exist?
> Have you ever been cold?
> According to the law of physics- cold is simply the lack of heat. (Moving particles)
> 
> ...


Wasn't Einstien agnostic?


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

That's a bogus Einstein quote. 

Further, the only conclusion to be drawn from the passage is that Einstein was mentally retarded.


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## TrueblueTexican (Aug 29, 2005)

*hmmm*

_Ernest	That's a bogus Einstein quote.

Further, the only conclusion to be drawn from the passage is that Einstein was mentally retarded._

The "barrister" reports in "let us reason together" as the Romans gather round the square.

Cmon Earnest impart that judical wisdom.

I depart dusting my heels - may God work a miracle in some lives here -


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## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

God is just in that he set rules for our relationship with Him, earth, humankind, etc and he can't break his own rules. He would not be completely just if he did so. We struggle with that because we have exceptions for everything. We also struggle with our limited perspective of focusing on our short time on earth as ALL of it. God understands that our life here is just a minor blip on the radar and because of Christ, death has been conquered. Our troubles and suffering here on earth or so minimal compared to our eternal life in heaven if we just simply put our trust in Jesus Christ as our Savior and the plan that God set in motion for our redemption. According to God, our life on earth is no more than the incubation stage before we really begin life. We, as the embryo believe that life ends when we are hatched out of the egg because we can't grasp living outside of the only thing we have ever known.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

TrueblueTexican said:


> As humanity understands LOVE -sometimes God performs tough love on Christ-ians - if you don't think so try being a Christian choosing to sin and be unrepentant -
> 
> God does LOVE and the forms that love takes is sometimes physically and mentally unpleasant or even leads to premature death.
> 
> ...


I refer to the scriptures for my answers.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

CTone said:


> I do know what free will is, all concepts of it.
> I do get what you're saying, i just donâ€™t buy it.
> 
> The real question is, does god have free will?
> ...


God does have a plan, and it was explained. You either do not understand, or do not want to understand, regardless of what is explained.

You can not reason with unreasonable people.


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## CTone (Jul 23, 2013)

shaggydog said:


> God does have a plan, and it was explained. You either do not understand, or do not want to understand, regardless of what is explained.
> 
> You can not reason with unreasonable people.


So answer the question. 
If god has a plan, then what is the point for god giving us "free will"?
If we use the "free will" he has given us, how could we be held accountable?
Tough questions I'm sure.

I look for the reason in your discussion but find only superstition and fear.


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## BertS (May 21, 2004)

CTone said:


> So answer the question.
> If god has a plan, then what is the point for god giving us "free will"?
> If we use the "free will" he has given us, how could we be held accountable?
> Tough questions I'm sure.
> ...


or faith.


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

What some of you people need is less religion and more empathy. Who are you to be so judgmental?


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## Part Timer (Jul 2, 2012)

CTone said:


> So answer the question.
> If god has a plan, then what is the point for god giving us "free will"?
> If we use the "free will" he has given us, how could we be held accountable?
> Tough questions I'm sure.
> ...


Perhaps its fear you have in your beliefs. Obvious beliefs that there is no God. Or perhaps fear that there is a God and you might be held accountable for your actions. Which is what this entire thread was started over.

I like what Bert said. Its not superstition or fear, its faith.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*If I were inventing a new religion*

I would set it up like this:

1. There is a God and God is 100% in charge of matters spiritual.

2. There is a natural, physical world that is 100% God-free. God didn't create it. God didn't create us. God doesn't "have a plan" for any of us to die at a particular time (like some clergymen claim at a funeral). God has nothing to do with tsunamis or hurricanes or earthquakes, or for that matter, beautiful sunsets and waterfalls. We just live, reproduce and die in the physical world according to the laws of nature. After that life, we are in God's hands.

Simple.


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

I saw some interesting points from Ctone


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

CTone said:


> So answer the question.
> If god has a plan, then what is the point for god giving us "free will"?
> If we use the "free will" he has given us, how could we be held accountable?
> Tough questions I'm sure.
> ...


He gave us free will so we could make choices for ourselves. Deuteronomy 30:19 â€¯I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants,

Humans have the choice to live by the standards he sets for us (as the sovereign of the universe He has the right to do so) or to disregard the standards. For those that chose to disregard those standards they will be judged. We can be held accountable because of those standards.

I certainly have no superstitions, and my only fear is that of displeasing my God.


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## BertS (May 21, 2004)

mastercylinder said:


> What some of you people need is less religion and more empathy. Who are you to be so judgmental?


too late to stir the pot, you've already been beaten to it on this thread.


_oh and let me edit. It isn't me to judge, and I'm not judging, this is just my opinion. Some folks find faith easily, and others more difficult, and even others, never at all. Some folks don't want to find it, and trying to convince them is very difficult. but for those of you without it, let me ask you this?

which side would you rather err on? What would it really cost you to try and believe? if you're wrong in believing, you'll never know it, but if you're right?

or the other side of the coin, you steadfastly choose not to believe. if you're wrong you'll certainly know it, and if you're right, you'll never know.
_


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

BertS said:


> too late to stir the pot....


Wanna bet? I'm a professional. :smile:


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## KeeperTX (Jul 8, 2013)

mastercylinder said:


> What some of you people need is less religion and more empathy. Who are you to be so judgmental?


Why are you judging me?


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

True. I assure you if you do not follow Jesus Chtist then you are lost and easy pickings for Satan who will tormented you for ever.


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## Bonito (Nov 17, 2008)

jimk said:


> There is only one "unpardonable" sin and it's not suicide.


Agreed !


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## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

shaggydog said:


> So you think it is God (an all powerful deity) that causes bad things to happen to people. It shows you do not know the scriptures. That is not the case at all. God DOES NOT cause bad things to happen, ever. He is righteous, just, and good. He is not capable of bad. "God is love."
> 
> You can blame it on a lot of things. But DO NOT blame it on God.


If God is all powerful, why let a little kid die from cancer? Why let someone with 5 kids die from ALS? Does that sound like "love"?

I'm not knocking anyones religion but I just don't by into it.

Noah carrying two of everything? Moses parting the Red Sea. You might as well believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

God did not create man in his image. We created "God" in ours...


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

Johnboat said:


> I would set it up like this:
> 
> 1. There is a God and God is 100% in charge of matters spiritual.
> 
> ...


You can't prove this.

 Belief and fact are 2 different things.


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## dbarham (Aug 13, 2005)

Its Catchy said:


> If God is all powerful, why let a little kid die from cancer? Why let someone with 5 kids die from ALS? Does that sound like "love"?
> 
> I'm not knocking anyones religion but I just don't by into it.
> 
> ...


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

Its Catchy said:


> If God is all powerful, why let a little kid die from cancer? Why let someone with 5 kids die from ALS? Does that sound like "love"?
> 
> I'm not knocking anyones religion but I just don't by into it.
> 
> ...


I do not have answer to this other than it is God's will. God's will will be done not ours. I have Faith in God's will and though hard sometimes we have accept it with a full heart like Jesus did in agony in the garden.

My dad's death was hard and terrible, but it brought me to read the Bible, because before my dad past he told me to pray. I did. I prayed so much I read the Bible and now I know God more than I ever have and am still learning. I learned that with Jesus there is no death, but eternal life and in heaven I will see my dad again. That sir is Faith and I have it. God is good all the time and all the time God is good.

BTW Noah parted the Red Sea and we can all be Santa Clause/Christians to those in need by giving.

Also, my dad's death actually strengthen my salvation. I think that death can do that for the survivors, strengthen their salvation by getting to know and trust in God's Grace through Faith.


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

DA REEL DADDY said:


> I do not have answer to this other than it is God's will. God's will will be done not ours. I have Faith in God's will and though hard sometimes we have accept it with a full heart like Jesus did in agony in the garden.
> 
> My dad's death was hard and terrible, but it brought me to read the Bible, because before my dad past he told me to pray. I did. I prayed so much I read the Bible and now I know God more than I ever have and am still learning. I learned that with Jesus there is no death, but eternal life and in heaven I will see my dad again. That sir is Faith and I have it. God is good all the time and all the time God is good.
> 
> ...


Lol that was Moses who parted the Red Sea.


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## Its Catchy (Apr 10, 2014)

DA REEL DADDY said:


> I do not have answer to this other than it is God's will. God's will will be done not ours. I have Faith in God's will and though hard sometimes we have accept it with a full heart like Jesus did in agony in the garden.
> 
> My dad's death was hard and terrible, but it brought me to read the Bible, because before my dad past he told me to pray. I did. I prayed so much I read the Bible and now I know God more than I ever have and am still learning. I learned that with Jesus there is no death, but eternal life and in heaven I will see my dad again. That sir is Faith and I have it. God is good all the time and all the time God is good.
> 
> ...


It's gods will that a 3 year old suffers from cancer? Sorry I just don't buy it. Some people just can't handle the fact that when you die, you die. There is no afterlife, no floating around in the clouds, no 700 virgins.

You go to the exact same place you were before you were born. Nothingness. I don't need the promise of an afterlife to be a good person. No reward, no heaven. Just help those who need help if you can for no other reason than you want to help.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

I have faith. I believe. 
I don't have all the answers now, but one day my questions will be addressed.
The End.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Amen.


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## ToddyTrout (Mar 15, 2005)

My faith in Him is very real and very strong! I think the best answer that those of us who are believers can give to those who are not is to openly pray that God will open their eyes to His truth. 

Many of you have presented the truth to those that refuse to hear in a much more eloquent way than I could, so the seed has been planted. 

I will now pray in Jesus name that the seed will grow in those that will open their eyes.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Its Catchy said:


> If God is all powerful, why let a little kid die from cancer? Why let someone with 5 kids die from ALS? Does that sound like "love"?
> 
> I'm not knocking anyones religion but I just don't by into it.
> 
> ...


Man has created man's problems by turning away from God. It started with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God was very clear when he told them, "if you eat from that tree, you will surely die." Had they been obedient they had the opportunity to live forever. They were created perfect. Unfortunately for all of us they disobeyed. The farther we have gotten away from perfection, the worse things have become. Yes, progress has been made in many areas, and there are things that man has been able to do, but many things he cannot do, such as doing away with death. But one day death will be done away with.

The young children you spoke of, they have the hope of the resurrection. The reason they have come down with diseases is because of man and his imperfection, not God. God is just and righteous, and he has a plan. Read Revelation 21:3-5, it speaks of the time when sorrow will be no more, no fear, no pain, no sickness. DEATH WILL BE DONE AWAY WITH. This is a promise from God, and God cannot lie. It is a shame that bad things happen to good people. There will be a day that those things do not happen.

Moses parted the Red Sea because God's spirit was with him. It was ONLY because of God that Moses could do that. He could not do that on his own.

There is probably nothing on an internet forum that I can say, or anyone else can say that could change your feelings. I hope some day that you can come to know God, and have the faith in Him that I have. He will right the wrongs, we just don't know exactly when that will be. I hope to be there when those wrongs are righted. If not, I hope to be in his memory, and look forward to the resurrection.


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## txgoddess (Sep 21, 2007)

I don't understand. God knows exactly what you're going to do before you do it. (1 John 3:20, Ephesians 1:11) He knows exactly how things are going to turn out. 

What kind of sadist creates two human beings, knowing that they will defy him, eat the fruit, and condemns billions upon billions of beings to misery, death, and hell? Especially those that are innocent? 

What was God's original purpose?


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

txgoddess said:


> What was God's original purpose?


Why to create Vampire food!
According to the "Book of Vampyr" God first created Lilithhttp://trueblood.wikia.com/wiki/Lilith, the primordial vampire, and then created the first members of humankind, Adam and Eve, to serve as food of the "divine race".

In modern times, belief in God is often the cause or used as excuse for bigotry and persecution with both human groups and vampire groups claiming they're doing "God's work".


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

txgoddess said:


> I don't understand. God knows exactly what you're going to do before you do it. (1 John 3:20, Ephesians 1:11) He knows exactly how things are going to turn out.
> 
> What kind of sadist creates two human beings, knowing that they will defy him, eat the fruit, and condemns billions upon billions of beings to misery, death, and hell? Especially those that are innocent?
> 
> What was God's original purpose?


To send His son.


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## USNHM-DV (Jan 6, 2014)

Vampire food? OhoooooooK.


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## txgoddess (Sep 21, 2007)

bubbas kenner said:


> To send His son.


So His only purpose in creating Earth was to be an outlet for him to send His son? Why?

To me, it's like if you were told that 100%, without a doubt, your child would be born, live a miserable life, and be in eternal torture after death. You know this with certainty. What would make you choose to have children? What justification could you give that would explain why you would condemn a person that you love without bound to that life?


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

Its Catchy said:


> I don't need the promise of an afterlife to be a good person.


Nor do I need the threat of eternal damnation in Hell to be a good person.

Man has been creating gods forever to explain that which he cannot understand or logically explain, and to allay his fears of the unknown.

Heaven and Hell are a creation of man, not a creation of "God."


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

There are a lot of misconceptions about the bible and it's teachings.


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## Part Timer (Jul 2, 2012)

mastercylinder said:


> Nor do I need the threat of eternal damnation in Hell to be a good person.
> 
> Man has been creating gods forever to explain that which he cannot understand or logically explain, and to allay his fears of the unknown.
> 
> Heaven and Hell are a creation of man, not a creation of "God."


So what is your basis for right and wrong? What moral compass do you follow? The one that is laid out in the Bible? But you think the Bible is a fictional story, so why not think the morals in it are also made up?

You say you know right and wrong and what makes you a good person. But what is all that based off of? Doesn't it all circle back to the Bible?


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## txgoddess (Sep 21, 2007)

Part Timer said:


> So what is your basis for right and wrong? What moral compass do you follow? The one that is laid out in the Bible? But you think the Bible is a fictional story, so why not think the morals in it are also made up?
> 
> You say you know right and wrong and what makes you a good person. But what is all that based off of?


I can't speak for him, but you don't have to be Christian to be a moral person. Buddhism, for one, can be a much more peaceful, moral, and loving way of life.


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## Part Timer (Jul 2, 2012)

txgoddess said:


> I can't speak for him, but you don't have to be Christian to be a moral person. Buddhism, for one, can be a much more peaceful, moral, and loving way of life.


So now you have to be Buddhist to be a good person?

My point is what are you basing "you're a good person" off of?


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## txgoddess (Sep 21, 2007)

Part Timer said:


> So now you have to be Buddhist to be a good person?


So you have to wear purple trousers to withdraw money at Bank of America?

See? I can make completely irrelevant leaps of logic, too.



Part Timer said:


> My point is what are you basing "you're a good person" off of?


Are you saying that the ONLY reason that you are a "good person" is because some religion told you to be?

I'm a "good person" because I have empathy for my fellow man. I'm a "good person" because there are consequences to my actions. Negative actions result in me or someone else being harmed. I don't want to see anyone else being harmed, so I don't perform those actions.

ETA: Also, please note that I never said I was going to Heaven. If Christianity is the true path (and I'm not saying that it is not), I will not be there. I do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I can pretend that I do, but God would know my heart. God knows what I do and don't believe and he knows already whether I'll change my mind.


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## flatsfats (May 21, 2004)

Well I didn't read the whole thread but here goes: To the best of my knowledge all the "versions" of the bible we have available are just that..translations. They have the taint of man on them. I honestly believe those passages about suicide were introduced to keep the money flowing to the church coffers when times got tough. 

That being said I've known two suicides in the last few years and they were the most generous and humble people I've ever known. One was pining for his wife that passed many years ago and the other was a young man that just couldn't make sense of this old world. I even allowed the latter out of my sight with my credit card on a number of occasions with never a worry or issue (that speaks volumes if you know me).

Its not my place to judge either of these people and I dang sure ain't gonna wish them to hell for stepping off this nutwheel life. They don't deserve that.


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## wacky-worm (Mar 10, 2008)

Spooley said:


> Having been born again 26 years ago when I asked Jesus Christ to come into my heart, I then began to read the Bible. I have read it front to back more times than I can count in that 26 years. A person who has actively received Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior cannot lose their salvation for any sin. The only unpardonable sin is to never be forgiven by God, thus rejecting the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells us in the Bible that he has never lost one of his own. So once you are saved, Heaven is yours regardless of what sins you may commit. Salvation is good for past, present, and future sins so in that respect, it is complete and perfect.
> 
> If one could possibly lose their salvation, then the work that God did by sacrificing his only son would be incomplete and thus faulty, however, no one can lose their salvation.
> 
> ...


THIS


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## bubbas kenner (Sep 4, 2010)

txgoddess said:


> So His only purpose in creating Earth was to be an outlet for him to send His son? Why?
> 
> To me, it's like if you were told that 100%, without a doubt, your child would be born, live a miserable life, and be in eternal torture after death. You know this with certainty. What would make you choose to have children? What justification could you give that would explain why you would condemn a person that you love without bound to that life?


Simply fallow His Son give glory to Him for ALL good things, He was here among us not so long ago we that believe and those that dont it is year 2014.Someting happened.


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## txgoddess (Sep 21, 2007)

bubbas kenner said:


> Simply fallow His Son give glory to Him for ALL good things, He was here among us not so long ago we that believe and those that dont it is year 2014.


I still don't understand, but I acknowledge that you've found your path. I don't disagree. I simply don't have the same conviction.


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## Part Timer (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm a "good person" because I have empathy for my fellow man. I'm a "good person" because there are consequences to my actions. Negative actions result in me or someone else being harmed. I don't want to see anyone else being harmed, so I don't perform those actions.[/QUOTE]

I have choose to follow a manual that was laid out for me, yes. Its clear on what is right and wrong. If i didn't believe in God i would just be another animal fighting to live another day till the day i die and rot into the earth. What should you care for? Your only existing until you die. You shouldn't care. You have no reason to care.

Your morals that you follow are the same ones that are laid out in the Bible, yet you disown God's words for some reason. You say you have consequences for your actions, so its the same in the Bible. Yet the Bible is wrong, and your way is right.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

txgoddess said:


> So you have to wear purple trousers to withdraw money at Bank of America?
> 
> See? I can make completely irrelevant leaps of logic, too.
> 
> ...


God created us in His image. You feel that empathy and are a "good person" because those traits were instilled in you. Curious as to whom you think Jesus is?

I too, do not believe I am going to heaven, I am sure of it, or maybe I should say, I have faith that I am not going to heaven.


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## txgoddess (Sep 21, 2007)

Part Timer said:


> I have choose to follow a manual that was laid out for me, yes. Its clear on what is right and wrong. If i didn't believe in God i would just be another animal fighting to live another day till the day i die and rot into the earth. What should you care for? Your only existing until you die. You shouldn't care. You have no reason to care.
> 
> Your morals that you follow are the same ones that are laid out in the Bible, yet you disown God's words for some reason. You say you have consequences for your actions, so its the same in the Bible. Yet the Bible is wrong, and your way is right.


Why is the Bible right, but every other religion's text wrong? Don't they all say that there are consequences to your actions? I know of no religion that states that you can do whatever you please with no repercussions.


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

Part Timer said:


> So what is your basis for right and wrong? What moral compass do you follow? The one that is laid out in the Bible? But you think the Bible is a fictional story, so why not think the morals in it are also made up?
> 
> You say you know right and wrong and what makes you a good person. But what is all that based off of? Doesn't it all circle back to the Bible?


Most people of normal intelligence know the difference between right and wrong. You are born with an innate moral compass. Some people just choose to defy, or even ignore, that moral compass, and some people are mentally incapable of listening to their moral compass.

I certainly don't need a book to help me distinguish right from wrong.


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## Part Timer (Jul 2, 2012)

txgoddess said:


> Why is the Bible right, but every other religion's text wrong? Don't they all say that there are consequences to your actions? I know of no religion that states that you can do whatever you please with no repercussions.


I honestly can't answer that, and that is where i let my faith come in. I have faith that God created us, and he sent his son to die for our sins.


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## txgoddess (Sep 21, 2007)

shaggydog said:


> Curious as to whom you think Jesus is?


I think it's probable that Jesus lived. Whether he was any different than Joseph Smith? I don't know. All we have are archaic texts that have been translated numerous times. Those texts may very well be true. On the other hand, L. Ron Hubbard's texts could be the prevailing religion in 2,000 years. I simply don't know and I don't have a problem if anyone else believes that they do. So long as they respect where I'm coming from, they can choose their own path. Heck, even if they don't respect me, they're free to choose their own path.


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

Not trying to be funny this time, TxGoddess has very good points.

Morality is a cultural in nature. If this is not so, then why do cannibals and child brides exist? I have been to places where is is A-Okay for a parent to discipline there little girls by taking pliers and pinching them on the ends of the fingers. Is that immoral? The fathers don't see to think so.

You cannot invoke God, Jesus, or for that matter anything out of the Bible as there is no proof any of it is true.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

txgoddess said:


> I think it's probable that Jesus lived. Whether he was any different than Joseph Smith? I don't know. All we have are archaic texts that have been translated numerous times. Those texts may very well be true. On the other hand, L. Ron Hubbard's texts could be the prevailing religion in 2,000 years. I simply don't know and I don't have a problem if anyone else believes that they do. So long as they respect where I'm coming from, they can choose their own path. Heck, even if they don't respect me, they're free to choose their own path.


I guess that if you don't believe in the bible, you would probably not believe that Jesus is the son of God.

Not trying to attack you, but I am curious if you have felt this way all of your life, or if something has happened that made you question the existence of God? I have those in my family that question His existence.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Hookless said:


> Not trying to be funny this time, TxGoddess has very good points.
> 
> Morality is a cultural in nature. If this is not so, then why do cannibals and child brides exist? I have been to places where is is A-Okay for a parent to discipline there little girls by taking pliers and pinching them on the ends of the fingers. Is that immoral? The fathers don't see to think so.
> 
> You cannot invoke God, Jesus, or for that matter anything out of the Bible as there is no proof any of it is true.


If you come to know God and watch how He works, you will believe His word the bible is true. Examination of the prophecies, science, many things that come from the bible are proved to be true. As an example the bible said the world was round, long before that was proved to be.


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## txgoddess (Sep 21, 2007)

shaggydog said:


> I guess that if you don't believe in the bible, you would probably not believe that Jesus is the son of God.
> 
> Not trying to attack you, but I am curious if you have felt this way all of your life, or if something has happened that made you question the existence of God? I have those in my family that question His existence.


I don't question the existence of God. I question the validity of religion.

I don't feel attacked or mind answering the question. I was born and raised Christian. Went to private Christian school. Can probably "out-Bible" most people.

What changed? I had a child. From the moment I held that child in my arms and felt the overwhelming love, I started to question what kind of Creator God could send his child to Hell. My daughter is grown now and has made some exceptionally poor choices of her own. There were times that she wouldn't even speak to me. Never once, no matter what she did, did I ever wish her the slightest bit of harm. At no point in her life have I ever not been willing to lay my own life down to protect her. I simply don't understand the concept of Hell as it relates to Christianity.


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## flatsfats (May 21, 2004)

Im probably gonna make some folks angry, but this song is what popped into my head. I'm done with this thread.

*Holier than thou*






No more the **** rolls out your mouth again
Haven't changed, your brain is still gelatin
Little whispers circle around your head
Why don't you worry about yourself instead
Who are you? Where ya been? Where ya from?
Gossip burning on the tip of your tongue
You lie so much, you believe yourself
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself
Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not
Before you judge me take a look at you
Didn't you find something better to do?
Point the finger, slow to understand
Arrogance and ignorance, go hand in hand
It's not who you are, it's who you know
Others lives are the basis of your own
Burn your bridges and build them back with wealth
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself
Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not
Ya, who the hell are you?
Ya, ha you
Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not, not


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

shaggydog said:


> If you come to know God and watch how He works, you will believe His word the bible is true. Examination of the prophecies, science, many things that come from the bible are proved to be true. As an example the bible said the world was round, long before that was proved to be.


And that proves my point. You invoke something that is written in the bible to show that very thing is true. The bible never claims the world is spherical. It is only described as the circle of the earth. There are also references in the bible that talk about the four corners of the earth. Hmm, could you please draw me a square circle?


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

shaggydog said:


> I guess that if you don't believe in the bible, you would probably not believe that Jesus is the son of God.
> 
> Not trying to attack you, but I am curious if you have felt this way all of your life, or if something has happened that made you question the existence of God? I have those in my family that question His existence.


I can't speak for txgoddess, but i do believe in the Bible. I believe that it is a book of didactic parables that Jesus used as an instructive guide of lessons and principles for his flock to follow. It's a good book.

I also believe that Jesus Christ existed, but I do not believe that he was an incarnation of God. I believe that he was a self-appointed prophet, and there was no shortage of self-appointed prophets in his time. There were dozens of them.


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

So, why not just believe we are vampire food. Ah go read the book of Erebus. I bet if enough people read it and convince themselves it is true, then it must be. Or maybe they can be helped to be convinced like the so called churches did in earlier centuries in this world by torchering a person until they believed.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Hookless said:


> And that proves my point. You invoke something that is written in the bible to show that very thing is true. The bible never claims the world is spherical. It is only described as the circle of the earth. There are also references in the bible that talk about the four corners of the earth. Hmm, could you please draw me a square circle?


You are confusing reality and symbolism. Use a little discretion.


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## sharkchum (Feb 10, 2012)

I could care less of someone worships God, Jesus, Buda, Allah, Vishno, or Zeus, its none of my business. I do agree with those on here that say "Wheres the proof". I for one don't believe anything unless I've seen it with my own eyes. I have read the Bible and found it to be a interesting story, but nothing more, just a "STORY", no different than The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. I know a lot of people that say Jesus turned their life around, Jesus got them off drugs, Jesus saved their marriage, or what ever. And for people like that I think religion is great, it gave them something positive to concentrate on so they could get their life straight. I hunt and fish with several people that have strong "faith", and if they want to say a prayer before we leave the boat ramp or say grace before we dig into the BBQ at the deer lease, I will bow my head while they do it out of respect for them. I think religion as a whole is a "fabrication" designed to keep the masses in check, and for the most part I think it works, but it's just not for me. I alone control my life, and until someone can prove me wrong, that's what I believe.


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

shaggydog said:


> You are confusing reality and symbolism. Use a little discretion.


No confusion on my part. Both statements could have been symbolism on the writers part. My point is there are many many things written in the bible and I liken it to a grand "Fiction".

I think there is a strong possibility it was written to bring order to the masses. Since morality is a cultural expression of what people believe is right and wrong, It was written to bring everybody in line.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Hookless said:


> No confusion on my part. Both statements could have been symbolism on the writers part. My point is there are many many things written in the bible and I liken it to a grand "Fiction".
> 
> I think there is a strong possibility it was written to bring order to the masses. Since morality is a cultural expression of what people believe is right and wrong, It was written to bring everybody in line.


2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17â€¯so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

The bible was written for our benefit. If you follow it's counsel your life will be made easier. It sure beats listening to the counsel of men.


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## Hookless (Jan 18, 2013)

I am not sure about it being written for our benefit. But I am sure it was written for somebodies benefit at some point in the past. 

I grew up following the word. Dad was a deacon and an elder of the church. I changed my tune about 20 years ago at the age of 30. My mother and father was visiting me and my wife. Dad comes to me about midnight saying mom was sick and need to go to the doctor. I went to their room and found her dead from a myocardial infarction. Like many of you would think of your own mother, my seed to be the sweetest person to ever know. She would give you anything she had to make you life better.

You have not lived until you perform CPR on you own dead mother for about 20 minutes waiting for an EMT to arrive. That sir is the time I saw the real truth behind it all. Where was god then? Never saw Mr. God once and there was no reason to take her at 55 years old.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Hookless said:


> I am not sure about it being written for our benefit. But I am sure it was written for somebodies benefit at some point in the past.
> 
> I grew up following the word. Dad was a deacon and an elder of the church. I changed my tune about 20 years ago at the age of 30. My mother and father was visiting me and my wife. Dad comes to me about midnight saying mom was sick and need to go to the doctor. I went to their room and found her dead from a myocardial infarction. Like many of you would think of your own mother, my seed to be the sweetest person to ever know. She would give you anything she had to make you life better.
> 
> You have not lived until you perform CPR on you own dead mother for about 20 minutes waiting for an EMT to arrive. That sir is the time I saw the real truth behind it all. Where was god then? Never saw Mr. God once and there was no reason to take her at 55 years old.


I am very sorry for you loss. My parents were older and the circumstances were certainly not the same as yours. But I do know how hard it can be. I pray that you will give God a chance, He is not to blame. Again I point to Revelation 21:4 â€¯And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.â€

There will come a day that the enemy, death, will be done away with. There are many future blessings that He has in store for us.


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

This may be a repost......apologies if so as I didn't read through the full thread.

Watched "Heaven is for Real" this afternoon....good movie if you haven't seen it.

Maybe it will inspire some of you to take a closer look at Christ.

Made me take step back, think about the priorities in my life, and about my faith. We all have our struggles and doubts from time to time....even preachers.

No one can prove to you that God exists....nor can anyone prove that he doesn't exist.

My believe is: We all make choices while we are on this ball of dirt....and we live eternally with the consequences.

Give it a chance, take a look, say a prayer....and I'll say one for us all.


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

98aggie77566 said:


> Give it a chance, take a look, say a prayer....and I'll say one for us all.


Thank you.

I also pray that all keeps their hearts open and one day the Holy Spirit will touch you and you will turn toward The Good Lord.

To my brothers and sisters in Christ, I just want to say thank you for all you inspiring posts.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Hookless said:


> I am not sure about it being written for our benefit. But I am sure it was written for somebodies benefit at some point in the past.
> 
> I grew up following the word. Dad was a deacon and an elder of the church. I changed my tune about 20 years ago at the age of 30. My mother and father was visiting me and my wife. Dad comes to me about midnight saying mom was sick and need to go to the doctor. I went to their room and found her dead from a myocardial infarction. Like many of you would think of your own mother, my seed to be the sweetest person to ever know. She would give you anything she had to make you life better.
> 
> You have not lived until you perform CPR on you own dead mother for about 20 minutes waiting for an EMT to arrive. That sir is the time I saw the real truth behind it all. Where was god then? Never saw Mr. God once and there was no reason to take her at 55 years old.


I'm certainly sorry for your loss, but did you ever consider the possibility that God needed her there a little quicker than you would have preferred? That's the hardest thing for people to grasp when they have a loss like that: the only thing they understand at the time is their own situation on this earth; that in no way affects the timetable that God has for any of us, and that anyone's time on this earth is but a moment in the greater scheme of things. You may see her as being taken from you, but she's really just moving on to the next step in her own journey, and the people she leaves behind just follow later.. When it's time for someone to make that move, it's time, no matter who they leave behind, what they've left undone, etc... She's not being removed from life, she's being promoted, for the lack of a better term. There was most certainly a reason for her to be taken at 55, you just don't understand it as of yet..


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## Barbarian (Feb 12, 2009)

I just want to say thanks to all for keeping this a very honest and open discussion about a topic that normally goes south quick. To those who asked for a copy of that book, I mailed them yesterday. As this thread is fading off, I wanted to leave one last message - my story of when I changed teams of thought.

I was a strong non believer in Christianity until age 33. The last week of October in 1999, it all changed. I was married with 2 kids living the good life when I crossed paths with a new customer. Something was different about this person. She talked about her faith openly (not in a save the world way, but it was her identity), but never talked about church. After about 3 months of first meeting this customer and as the job was winding down, she courageously asked me if I knew what Jesus Christ did for me. After explaining, she asked me if I believed all of it and wanted to accept Christ as my Savior. To this day, I can not explain why but I said yes and yes. Just 2 weeks prior I had a very spirited debate about the craziness of believers. 

I didn't understand what happened to me at that moment and I can't really explain it to you now. I can tell you that I literally spent the rest of that day in my office weeping uncontrollably in random moments. I wasn't a crying kind of guy either. I think I was just overwhelmed with sorrow when my eyes were opened to my sin and then I really felt a sense of love that I didn't know existed.

I have a hard time explaining the power of what happened in my office that day, but to give you a sense of the magnitude and the immediate contrast. I had only been home from work about 2-3 hours when my wife began to ask me questions about my behavior and attitude. I came home that day a different person and my wife of 6 years wasn't real sure who her new husband was. The very next week, the child care director calls my wife into her office one afternoon and ask if everything is ok at home. My wife is a little stunned and ask why, The director says because your kids have been coming here for 2 years and all they have talked about the last week is their dad. At ages 4 & 2, they were able to recognize that something was different. 

Now, please know that IMO I didn't want changing, need changing, or intentionally try to change a thing. It was like in that instant moment that I was forgiven, saved, adopted - God said if you are going to start representing me on earth then lets clean you up. We'll work on the inside over the years, but lets make you presentable as one of my children. I had several vices that were wiped clean in my life that day. Lets just say there were a handful (some I had tried to quit, others I enjoyed) and all of the urges disappeared that day. I am far from perfect and still sinning every day and probably every hour of every day, but I just kind of got a bath and change of clothes that day. 

It has been 15 years now and thinking back to that day as I write this still brings tears in my eyes because no matter what you believe about God and how unexplainable He is, heaven and hell, and all the other stuff that comes with this topic - something supernatural happened to me that day that I wasn't looking for or expecting and it all started at the exact minute of me simply admitting and believing that I needed a Savior and asking Jesus Christ to come in and be a part of my life. To me, there is no other explanation now that Jesus Christ is real which means everything He said is real. It doesn't all make sense, but I just trust him like I do the airplane engineer, mechanic, and pilot when I board a plane.

I get and I understand all of the unexplainable stuff and a lot of it doesn't make sense and yes we would do a lot of it different, but I just beg you to not close the door. You don't have to agree or believe anything, but at least leave the door unlocked. There will be seasons and moments in your life that the current of the Holy Spirit will come and try to pull you near. Don't be strong and fight it, be weak and just let go and that current will sweep you to a place I can't explain and then much of the unexplained will be explained for you and many will not, but those won't matter to you anymore either. 

I know that most nonbelievers would rather we keep our faith to ourselves, but we are driven by the love that our Father has for you. He loves you so we love you and there is no way we can love you without at least trying to get you to understand how much He loves you. So please don't take offense to our offering.


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