# Need Help With A Win. 243



## Knifeman

My son has a Win Mod. 70 243. The last 4 deer he has killed, there was no blood trail. The deer did not bleed till they were on the skinning rack. He is shooting 100 gr. Rem. core-lokt. The bullet is mushrooming and lays up in the off side of the shot. I was wanting to know if there is some ammo I can buy that someone has had good luck and good blood trails. Thank You for your help.:headknock


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## FishinFoolFaron

I use an 87 grain hollow point (hand load, but Federal makes an 85 gr.), as long as I dont hit both shoulders there is a golf ball sized exit hole and plenty of blood. Don't need the blood trail as they go down within 30 yards.


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## Charles Helm

Federal Premium sells the 100-grain Partition load and they or someone else has the 85-grain TSX.

Have not used the TSX but the kids have used the Partition.


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## yep

My son shot his first deer with federals loaded with 85 gr, barnes tsx, complete passthrough, golfball sized exit hole.


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## Marshman

Knifeman, get some Federal Premium 85 grain barnes TSX ( tripleshox). Your son will appreciate the difference. Animals that maybe before ran off, will DRT.

Bullet placement is of course still important, regardless of the caliber or round fired.


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## Mowdy Ag

+1 on the Federal / Barnes 85 grain TSX. I used it with my 243 last year and, as above, complete passthrough with golfball sized exit. My placement was a little high and back but he went down 30-40 yards from where he was hit... ...found massive internal damage with no indication of fragmentation - no blood-shot other than very localized at points of entry and exit. I'm sold on 'em and now handload them (120 grain TSX and 140 grain MRX) exclusively for my 280 AI and my son's 7 WSM. If you want penetration, they're the ticket.

MA


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## jimk

It sounds like that bullet is doing what its designed for...mushrooming and expending all of its energy in the carcass. If they're going down close, that may not be a bad bullet to use.


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## zrexpilot

hornady 100 gr btsp


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## llred

I use the Federal Premium with the sierra gameking 100gr BTSP. It has knocked everything down and leave a good exit wound without the meat damage.


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## Bottomsup

Bullet placement is far more important than any caliber, brand, load, etc. People get way to wound up in calibers, rifles etc. The only way you will get a good blood trail is if the bullet exits the animal. Try shooting for the center of the rib cage and stay out of the shoulder. You should get a nice exit wound and blood trail. Save the the shoulder shots for larger calibers which will break a deer down in its tracks. I have killed more deer with a 22-250 loaded with hyper fast loads and Nosler 50 grain BT bullets than the law allows. At 4000 fps a deer shot in the shoulder would most likely produce a surface wound and lost deer. If shot in the rib cage all internal organs turn to jello and there is no exit hole with the deer going down like lightning struck it. If I am meat hunting I will put one through the eyeball. Best advice I can give is to get a trigger job done on your rifle. You will not believe how much more accurate you can shoot without the overweight factory/lawsuite safe trigger pull.


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## West Bay Wader

I hand load for my sons 243 and use the 80 gr TTSX. It has performed flawlessly so far. Opens very quickly on a rib shot and will still carry through if the bullet encounters bone. The pic is captured from a HD video cam of a buck that my son shot last year. The white cloud on the back side is all of the moisture blood etc blowing out the back side of the deer as the little 243 blows through. DRT. I am loading the barnes TTSX in all of my guns now.


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## 27contender

All good advice. I loaded down for my kids with an 85 gr Sierra HP and I am hoping it will do the same. All it has done so far is poke a hole in paper. 

R


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## CHARLIE

Again Barnes TSX. 

Charlie


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## THE JAMMER

I once went to an archery conclave in Albuquerque, where a question was asked of famed author and photographer Judd Cooney, "Mr. Cooney, would you rather have a 4 bladed hole through one lung or a two bladed hole through both lungs?" Answer: "I would rather have a pencil hole through both lungs, than a 6 bladed hole through only one lung.

Application: having holes in both sides of the deer is generally the key to a good blood trail.

BARNES TSX DOES THIS ALL DAY LONG!!!


THE JAMMER


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## asolde

I shoot the barnes 85 gr tsx out of my 243 and get a good exit wound. Shot placement is critical, the animal needs to be broadside/ slightly quatering away with the shot side leg forward. Trigger pull is important for accuracy also. The remington cor-lok is a good bullet and should do the job. If that cor-lok shoots good for you then pratice on shot placement and maybe a trigger job.


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## Whistling Dixie

*Devil's advocate*

Here's the part where I play Devil's advocate. We have three 243s in our family and I load for all three. I have tested many different types of bullets for these guns including the 85 grain TSX. In fact the TSX performs dead last in my testing on the Texas whitetails we have shot with it; they just don't provide enough mass for reliable expansion. I saw three deer shot with it last year, all good hits (my sons shoot well) and the resulting blood trails were poor to non existent. I will not use them again unless it's for pigs. I settled on the 85 grain sierra HPBT Gameking for my sons and my wife. Sub minute groups and massive wound channels. I have seen at least 15 deer killed with this bullet and only once did it fail to penetrate adequately. The one time I was disappointed the bulled struck the front leg bone and sheared off to the right not entering the chest cavity. I know this because we ran her down and followed up. Other than that the bullet has performed perfectly. My middle son killed a cull six point in south texas this past year and the bullet left a trail a blind man could follow. The Sierra is a good sound bullet for Texas sized deer, just try to stay out of the heavy bone area. In my personal 243 I shoot the 95 grain Hornady SST. This too is a sure enough killer, I have killed over 20 deer with it in the last 6 years. Penetration is excellent and blood trails are good. I generally shoot my deer in the head or neck so I don't chase them very much but I have killed whitetails in excess of 300 yards with it and the results were great. I do have to agree with the comments on accurracy, the 243 should only be used in the hands of an accomplished shooter. No matter what, it remains a marginal caliber for many of the larger species and accuracy is key. You can't kill what you can't hit accuratlely. Good Hunting.


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## CHARLIE

Whistling dixie

Wow 1st time I have ever heard of poor Barnes performance. Not enough mass for reliable expansion just doesent add up. Has the same mass as other bullets probably more since it is a larger bullet for the same weight as lead. Normally has always expanded thats the good part at any velocity they open up just like an X. Four nice pedals. Oh well thats why there are Fords and Chevys..

Charlie


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## 11tonytiger

I'll second the Hornady SST 95gr. bullet, I load this for my wife's .243 . I also use the 115 gr. SST in my 25-06 and 257 Weatherby. With all calibers mentioned the deer go down in their tracks ...no need to chase a blood trail.


T


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## Whistling Dixie

Charlie,
Pardon the confusion, I mean Texas deer especially does don't have enough mass to open the bullet. Bullet mass is fine. 100 pound does shot through the ribs don't seem to pose enough resistance to adequately open the bullet. On the flip side, if you hit the shoulder bone they will fall where they stand, however that doesn't occur every time so I've decided to say away from them unless we're shooting something a little thicker skinned. I haven't tried it on hogs yet but I surmise the heavier skin, shield and bone structure would allow the bullet to perform more appropriately.


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## THE JAMMER

Whistlin,

Just to, as you said earlier, play devil's advocate: how do you know that shooting through a doe won't open up a barnes XXX? Have you actually recovered bullets on the other side to confirm that? Even that wouldn't work because if you were actually able to find one on the other side and dig it up, the contact with the ground would certainly have opened them up. The only way I can think of being able to determine for sure that it wouldn't open up would be to see the bullet still in the air with a real slow motion camera after it passed through that doe, and before it contacted the ground. Then if it didn't expand you could see it in that film.

I would venture to say the barnes family might say something different about this subject, with maybe some ballistic gelatin data or something like that to back it up. What is your data for that opinion? I'm not doubting you, I would just like to see some proof that I'm not aware of. Just trying to learn.

THE JAMMER


Whistling Dixie said:


> Charlie,
> Pardon the confusion, I mean Texas deer especially does don't have enough mass to open the bullet. Bullet mass is fine. 100 pound does shot through the ribs don't seem to pose enough resistance to adequately open the bullet. On the flip side, if you hit the shoulder bone they will fall where they stand, however that doesn't occur every time so I've decided to say away from them unless we're shooting something a little thicker skinned. I haven't tried it on hogs yet but I surmise the heavier skin, shield and bone structure would allow the bullet to perform more appropriately.


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## 11tonytiger

I also think the Barnes is overkill for thin skinned Texas deer, as I mentioned earlier the Hornaday SST does a good job on deer. I wouldn't use it on hogs or anything heavier. The Barnes would be a good choice for hogs.Just my opinion.


T


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## CHARLIE

Whistlingdixie

On the heavier bullets such as 243 bullet is not as important as are the smaller caliber bullets. I tried every bullet made to shoot deer with my 223. All were failures either mostly varmit rounds (blow up before entry) and if heavy enough would not shoot accurately. Finally the Barnes comes along and opens up every time as advertised. No matter what range or velocity. I like them because when you pull the trigger you dont have to worry about the bullet. It does the job every time. Killed 2 hogs with one shot with the Barnes in the 223. Complete pass through on both animals. Probably would have kill another if it had been in line. Oh yes great wounds too.

Good hunting.


Charlie


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## 27contender

Good info on this thread. I hate to see animals suffer. That is why I shoot a 300RUM.

I maybe compensating for something.

R


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## bayourat

I'll vote the "forbidden" ballistic tip. I've shot over 25 deer with my 243 and NEVER had one run over 30 yards if they ever took a step, which most didn't.


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## B-Money

bayourat said:


> I'll vote the "forbidden" ballistic tip. I've shot over 25 deer with my 243 and NEVER had one run over 30 yards if they ever took a step, which most didn't.


The 95 NBTP works for me. Only non-passthrough was a face-on shot to to a 150# piggie.


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## 11tonytiger

bayourat said:


> I'll vote the "forbidden" ballistic tip. I've shot over 25 deer with my 243 and NEVER had one run over 30 yards if they ever took a step, which most didn't.


I have had great success on deer with Nosler Ballistic tip in several calibers, the SST is a clone to this bullet and cheaper.

T


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## elpistolero45

Having started out with .22 caliber (22 Hornet) rifles for white tails then moving on to .30 caliber rifles, I have since returned to .22 caliber rifles for most of my rifle work. I've have Excellent luck with Winchester Supreme bullets in all calibers.

Just like the Real Estate Salesman said... it's all about Location, Location, Location (of the bullet placement).


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## skipjack express

elpistolero45 said:


> Having started out with .22 caliber (22 Hornet) rifles for white tails then moving on to .30 caliber rifles, I have since returned to .22 caliber rifles for most of my rifle work. I've have Excellent luck with Winchester Supreme bullets in all calibers.
> 
> Just like the Real Estate Salesman said... it's all about Location, Location, Location (of the bullet placement).


i think your on to the something:spineyes:


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## CoastalOutfitters

For factory box ammo, remmy ammo is junk, i speak from experience, i have sold 1000's of rounds of all brands, and talked to hunters about results and then the remmy factory several times, they only guarantee a 2" group at a 100, it is cheap, mass produced, low end ammo.

shoot federal premium or hornady spitzer style bullets and you will be fine.... .243 100grs.

I have been thru the Hornady plant 2X , they don't fool around, it is a sight to see.


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## 11tonytiger

bayourat said:


> I'll vote the "forbidden" ballistic tip. I've shot over 25 deer with my 243 and NEVER had one run over 30 yards if they ever took a step, which most didn't.


That's my experience also, the deer I have taken with this bullet didn't take a step just went down in their tracks.


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## goatchze

CoastalOutfitters said:


> *For factory box ammo, remmy ammo is junk*, i speak from experience, i have sold 1000's of rounds of all brands, and talked to hunters about results and then the remmy factory several times, they only guarantee a 2" group at a 100, it is cheap, mass produced, low end ammo.
> 
> shoot federal premium or hornady spitzer style bullets and you will be fine.... .243 100grs.
> 
> I have been thru the Hornady plant 2X , they don't fool around, it is a sight to see.


I can't speak for all Remington ammo, but my experience has been the same. Shooting their 140gr Rem260 rounds, I had velocities as much as 150-200fps different (a st dev of 70-90fps) As a comparison, my hand loads will have standard deviations of 10-30fps max.

How can you shoot well with that much difference in velocity?


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## THE JAMMER

Yes but your velocity can be affected by how hard you pull the trigger.

Watch this one.

THE JAMMER

just kidding



goatchze said:


> I can't speak for all Remington ammo, but my experience has been the same. Shooting their 140gr Rem260 rounds, I had velocities as much as 150-200fps different (a st dev of 70-90fps) As a comparison, my hand loads will have standard deviations of 10-30fps max.
> 
> How can you shoot well with that much difference in velocity?


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## State_Vet

If you put a hole in them in the right place they fall down, like this:

http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc100/state_vet/?action=view&current=Picture035.flv

Sierra GameKing i believe its what i had in it.


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## coogerpop

Bottomsup said:


> Bullet placement is far more important than any caliber, brand, load, etc. People get way to wound up in calibers, rifles etc. The only way you will get a good blood trail is if the bullet exits the animal. Try shooting for the center of the rib cage and stay out of the shoulder. You should get a nice exit wound and blood trail. Save the the shoulder shots for larger calibers which will break a deer down in its tracks. I have killed more deer with a 22-250 loaded with hyper fast loads and Nosler 50 grain BT bullets than the law allows. At 4000 fps a deer shot in the shoulder would most likely produce a surface wound and lost deer. If shot in the rib cage all internal organs turn to jello and there is no exit hole with the deer going down like lightning struck it. If I am meat hunting I will put one through the eyeball. Best advice I can give is to get a trigger job done on your rifle. You will not believe how much more accurate you can shoot without the overweight factory/lawsuite safe trigger pull.


I have killed many,many deer since I bought my 243 in 1960,,,,,100 gr sierra BT in front of 46gr IMR 4350...very few pass thrus....that's why I switched to a 300 win mag using 165 gr Hornady....passes thru evertime now and leaves a good hole...or leaves them exactly where they were standing ..if they run in the brushy,sandy South Texas brush,you need a blood trail....


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## CHARLIE

This is what a 53 Gr 223 Barnes TSX does


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## Bukmstr

Awesome Charlie! Thanks for sharing!!!!



CHARLIE said:


> This is what a 53 Gr 223 Barnes TSX does


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## mas360

I used to hunt with a 30-06 for pass through shot and blood trail. Now, the 30-06 is safe queen. The go to deer rifles are a CZ527 in .223 and a Winchester Mod 70 in .243. All shots aim for either head or neck. If I miss, so far not yet, the deer walks away. If not, it drops right there. 
For the .243 I load it with Remington bulk 80 grain SP bullets. Wonder why? I choose the cheapest in order to be able to afford to fire about 800 rounds for practice and fun every year.


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## THE JAMMER

How do you know you haven't missed yet? A hit in the fleshy part of the neck is often undetectable, and will leave little if any blood trail. You think you missed, and the deer runs off and dies a day later. I guess no one ever misses on a head shot, and shoots off a jaw either.

I do hope you are keeping those neck/head shots under 75-100 yards, and that you can tell me, within ten seconds, how much your bullet will drift laterally with a 15-20 mph 90 degree crosswind at the ranges you are taking these shots.

A 1" MOA gun at the range, will probably be a 2 MOA gun in the field (without controlled conditions, rest in front and rear, etc.), + maybe an inch or so of wind, and the deer moving ever so slightly just as you squeeze the trigger, and you just missed that 4" head or spine.

Not trying to be judgemental, just practical, but I would ask: how many professional guides out there would recommend to their clients to take head/neck shots????

THE "HEART LUNG" JAMMER



mas360 said:


> I used to hunt with a 30-06 for pass through shot and blood trail. Now, the 30-06 is safe queen. The go to deer rifles are a CZ527 in .223 and a Winchester Mod 70 in .243. All shots aim for either head or neck. If I miss, so far not yet, the deer walks away. If not, it drops right there.
> For the .243 I load it with Remington bulk 80 grain SP bullets. Wonder why? I choose the cheapest in order to be able to afford to fire about 800 rounds for practice and fun every year.


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## lesmcdonald

I'm shooting the Hornady 100 grain Lt. Mag. It hits hard and shoots real flat.


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## THE JAMMER

Use that Barnes xxx. There is nothing like having those TWO holes for blood.

THE JAMMER


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## WillieT

Not trying to be judgemental, just practical, but I would ask: how many professional guides out there would recommend to their clients to take head/neck shots????

NONE! I don't care how much you practice, there are too many variables in the field, on an animal that MIGHT move, to be consistant with shot placement. Not fair to the animal.


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## B-Money

shaggydog said:


> Not trying to be judgemental, just practical, but I would ask: how many professional guides out there would recommend to their clients to take head/neck shots????
> 
> NONE! I don't care how much you practice, there are too many variables in the field, on an animal that MIGHT move, to be consistant with shot placement. Not fair to the animal.


but..that is exactly judgemental!! It's ok to have an opinion. I would not advice anybody to take a head shot. However, I will take one if everything is lined up and I am steady.


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## WillieT

Bobby Miller said:


> but..that is exactly judgemental!! It's ok to have an opinion. I would not advice anybody to take a head shot. However, I will take one if everything is lined up and I am steady.


It doesn't matter how steady YOU are. Unless you have him short tied to a tree, he can move.


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## bigfishtx

shaggydog said:


> Not trying to be judgemental, just practical, but I would ask: how many professional guides out there would recommend to their clients to take head/neck shots????
> 
> NONE! I don't care how much you practice, there are too many variables in the field, on an animal that MIGHT move, to be consistant with shot placement. Not fair to the animal.


Well, I am a guide. If I know my hunter is a good shot and the range is 150 or less, I prefer for them to take the neck shot.


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## spurgersalty

lesmcdonald said:


> I'm shooting the Hornady 100 grain Lt. Mag. It hits hard and shoots real flat.


I tried this one in my 700 bdl 243 and couldn't get under 3" at a 100 yds.
But decided to try the regular hornady custom in 95 bthp and started gettin 1" groups with good rest of course. Guess its just the difference in guns. some like certain ammo some don't.


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