# Striped Bas follow up



## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

The following may be a little long winded for a fishing report but by posting here it will reach those who may be interested.
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Several weeks ago some of the Lake Livingston 2cool crowd was engaged in a discussion concerning the striped bass in our lake.
We all put forth various theories as to why there were no large fish being caught. Some stated, myself included that the larger fish left the lake during high rates of flow, others felt that the larger fish only inhabited the deep water and were not accessible to the fishermen and some suggested that the striped bass did not thrive in the lake.
I stated that I would keep digging in an effort to get more data. After hours on line, many emails and telecoms with TP&W biologist and digging through archives to glean all the info I could find, it was obvious that all of the above theories are correct.
Mark Webb is the TP&W biologist in charge of Lake Livingston. He is a very helpful gentleman who took time out of his busy schedule to call me at home to discuss the striped bass.
Basically what he said was that Lake Livingston was not a striped bass lake. It gets much too hot and has poor dissolved oxygen content. The fish are stressed from the heat and do not grow since just the act of chasing shad in the warmer upper water column can even be fatal. Their high metabolism burns energy faster than it can be restored. Mark did not give me a parts per million count required but he did say that any temperature above 73 F was detrimental. He said that they could be starving to death in a banquet of shad.
He also felt that most small throw back do not survive. The combination of the heat, stress and rough handling was too much.
Mark had just reviewed the past 2 or 3 gill net surveys before calling me. These surveys show only fish in the 22 to 28 inch range. No fish large than that were recorded. It was also noted that those fish were not in good physical condition. They were very lean for their body length. This is also the case for the fish being caught this summer. 
He stated that if there were any ten plus pound fish in Lake Livingston they would be in the deeper cooler water closer to the dam. Gill nets did not prove this to be true. Plus if they go that near the dam they would most likely leave the lake.
I ask why the state continued to stock millions of fry every year if the results were so poor. He just laughed and said it was to maintain a brood stock in the river. In actuality Livingston is just a big brood pond. It is the feeder system to the lower Trinity River.

Mark said there have been issues that reduced their ability to harvest brood fish from the Texoma tailrace. Livingston is the main and best source for the extensive hatchery program. So every effort is made to maintain the fish count below the dam in April of each year.
During the last few decades there have been unsuccessful attempts to restock striped bass in the Trinity River and the upper Trinity Bay. From 1983 to 1994 millions of fingerlings were stocked in the bay with no results. Also river stocking failed to establish a viable population. Since the sexually mature fish leave the lake during high discharge rates it turns out that the best way to keep large brood fish in the river is to start them in the lake. 
In fact he stated that Livingston would be a great hybrid lake but the concern about their impact on the striper's prevented them from being stocked. I asked about the hybrids at the lock and dam this spring. He said they were natural crosses and a few escapees from up stream. Since they have the spawning urge just as the white bass the majority of the Livingston hybrids were there. Not a concern, yet.
The striped bass in the river are not in the best of conditions either. They also suffer in most years from the heat and erratic water flows. Large die offs are common.
Last year was a better year with many reports of fish all through the river system and large schools in upper Trinity bay. Mark thought that high discharge rates after Rita and Ike helped the river population grow substantially. 
Nate Smith of TP&W Heart of the Hills Research Center plus a private contractor is studying the striped bass in the Trinity River. There is some legitimate concern that the new hydroelectric plant at the Livingston dam will adversely affect the fish population in the river. Those studies are ongoing so there are no reportable results available to the public.
To recap.
1. The legal striped bass being caught this year are the "big" fish. There may be a stray 20 pounder or two roaming the lake but only sheer luck will get him on a hook.
2. TP&W in counting on a constant exchange of fish from the hatchery to the lake and into the river.
3. The extreme temperatures of this summer may cause a reduction of keeper striped bass next year.
4. Mark ended his conversation with a request for all of the first hand info we can provide him. Should anyone have information about striper activity they obtained while fishing or boating on Livingston he ask if it can be forwarded to him. Send to me in a PM and I will forward it.
He is starting a TP&W web site much like 2cool so that fishermen can post their daily catches. It is meant to inform fishermen of the changes in the daily bite and general water conditions on the lakes and rivers.
.


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## gm (Jun 26, 2004)

Great info, and thanks very much for #1: doing the research and legwork, and #2: sharing with everyone!

Thanks again!


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## genemu (May 23, 2004)

Thanks to you sunbeam for the interesting information! Ican relate to the HEAT having averse effects on the fish because it is limiting me to fishing only in the early morning and then heading back to the A/C. Good report!


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Interesting information. Thanks for posting it.

After reading it, I understand now why they haven't stocked hybrids in the lake...although, as a person who fishes the lake regularly, I disagree with their thinking. Why not hybrids?

TP &W could certainly maintain their striper breeding stock below the dam by continuing to stock straight stockers in the main lake. I fail to see how adding hybrids would adversely affect the stripers. Certainly there is no shortage of forage for both and they aren't counting on either of them reproducing in the lake or river.

Hybrids are also very intolerant of low DO2 but not as sensitive as the stripers. Hybrids offer the advantage of rapid growth along with a short life cycle. 

The hybrids we caught in the spring run were really great fish, 24 and 25 inch fish were common and much heavier than the typical stripers. Tremendous fighters in the river....see attached photo.

Looking at the stocking data for Livingston, it appears we are pretty much an afterthought, i.e. we get a few of the left over stripers that aren't stocked in other Texas lakes. 

I can understand that thinking...but can not understand nor agree with the thinking on hybrids....why not, TP&W, give Lake Livingston the same benefits accorded other major Texas impoundments? It would have a tremendous impact on the local ecomony.

Are we any less deserving than other Texas lakes?


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## dbullard (Feb 13, 2008)

great info thanks for the research!!


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## RAYSOR (Apr 26, 2007)

A big thanks SB, for the great info, I really enjoyed reading and I know it took a lot of time to do, thanks again.


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## tecohorn (Jun 16, 2009)

That's some great info and very interesting... and something I was pondering when I heard stripers like cooler water.... A long with some stuff I had learned from meadowlark about hybrids and ponds..

I've heard the hydro water will be coming from slightly deeper water than the current dam which would mean slightly cooler water below the dam....?

The problem might be lower DO2 because of less agitaition with the hydro project.... Hopefully they will make sure the Hydro design will supply the river with well agitated water like the current spillway does..

That cooler water and high agitation supplied by the spillway keep the river with pretty high DO2 rates for a few miles down stream..... and maybe all the way to the gulf compared to what a wild river would supply..

Also I'm with meadowlark... Hybrids should be stocked even if they have to increase the numbers of stripers stocked to compensate for loss... The stocking process just does not seem to be fair..

I grew up fishing below the dam and always hated when the TPW showed up in the spring because fishing suffered..... Also the numbers of large stripers caught in the early to mid 80's below the dam has never been the same.. At least not for me...

IMHO, The lake striper reached it's peak in the mid 80's as well.... I recall catching many 20 pound plus stripers in 1982 to 1988 time frame but have not caught one since..

I've also heard the original stripers stocked in Texas were Atlantic stripers from south carolina and not gulf stripers... But that could have changed... You would think the gulf striper would have just a little more hot water and DO2 tolerance compared to the atlantic striper....

I need to run by and talk with my old buddy (WB) who has fished the lake and river, along with his dad, since the late 70's, almost every day to see what he thinks... I could be wrong since I haven't fished the river or lake much since the early 90's..

BTW... I think TP&W do a great job overall..... They are the best in the nation at what they do..

Here is some more info...

*HISTORICAL RANGE *

Striped bass were once common in the rivers and estuarine environment of the northern Gulf coast. They were found from Texas to the Suwannee river, Florida, and inland to St. Louis, Missouri on the Mississippi River. Historical reports indicate the fish were landed commercially from the late 1800's through the early 1960's. Except for a remnant population of Gulf race striped bass in the Apalachicola River system in northwest Florida and infrequent catch reports in a few other river systems, they are no longer common throughout their range.

Gulf race striped bass are considered anadromous but for the most part are riverine in nature. When water temperatures start to rise (mid-February in Florida) mature males begin spawning runs up freshwater rivers and streams. The females follow and when they arrive at selected areas, usually spawn with several males. Semi-buoyant eggs are deposited directly into the water, as is the sperm. The eggs, if fertilized, hatch after 36-42 hours under normal conditions. This is the most crucial period for young stripers. The water current must be strong enough, and the river distance long enough to keep the eggs and young from settling to the river bottom, where silt would smother them. This period lasts several days and the correct amount of clean, flowing water is essential. 
After the spring spawning run, the fish disperse downstream seeking cool water springs where they spend the hot summer months.

The reasons for the decline of native striped bass along the northern Gulf coast are speculative. Environmental alterations in the form of water control structures and extensive channelization may have prevented successful reproduction. Dams not only prohibit migration upstream eliminating prime spawning habitat, but also reduce access to cool water springs which are crucial for large striped bass to survive the hot summer months. Industrial and agricultural pollution have also been implicated as probable causes of the drastic decline of striped bass.

The Apalachicola-Chattahoochee-Flint(ACF) river system is a major component in the restoration of this species.. It is now believed that the only naturally-occurring population of native Gulf striped bass exists in the ACF system.

Almost wiped out in the 60's, restoration efforts for the Gulf race striper started in 1967 at USM's Gulf Coast Research Lab, that is, until Katrina wiped out the lab's infrastructure needed to rear the fish. The goal of creating a self-sustaining population of stripers was not achieved; however, a recreational fishery developed, milestoned by the 38 lb striper state record fish which was a GCRL released fish, caught in the Bouie River..

Here is a link to some info on the gulf of mexico striper....

http://www.usm.edu/gcrl/research/striped_bass.php


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## Whistling Dixie (May 24, 2009)

Fantastic information, I just learned more about stipers in ten minutes that I have my entire life. Thank you Sunbeam and Tecohorn very much for all the hard work and effort. I'm a bit of research nut myself and truly appreciate the sharing of your knowledge.


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## texasGG (Mar 12, 2007)

Great Report, thanks for the effort.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

I sent you some recent pics sunbeam keep up the great info posts.
SS


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## Shotgun Slim (Jun 9, 2009)

Great info guys!! It was a very good, informative read.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

I sent you pics of most of the 18" over stripers me or people fishing with me have caught in the last month. It has been my experience that the big ones go on a feed this time of year and more 18" or over stripers are caught in this time period than any other part of the year by the average white bass fisherman.
The L&D was a big exception to that this year, folks up there caught hybrids like never before to my knowledge, but not many stripers that i know of.
I had to the boatside that I lost the day I got 4 nice ones that was a 20lb+ fish, the only one I have ever seen in the lake.
I do know of several trotliners who catch the really big ones like 25lb to 35lbs on the cut shad baited lines, but not that often.
I think that the 28" max stated in the info sunbeam posted is on the money. I have personnely caught many right at 28" over the years, and a few 30"+.
I have seen several summers where a thermocline killed virtually every striper over 25" on the South end. One day I would go out and it would look like Gator Gar was running jugs, just a lot of white striper floaters all over.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

shadslinger said:


> I sent you pics of most of the 18" over stripers me or people fishing with me have caught in the last month. It has been my experience that the big ones go on a feed this time of year and more 18" or over stripers are caught in this time period than any other part of the year by the average white bass fisherman.
> The L&D was a big exception to that this year, folks up there caught hybrids like never before to my knowledge, but not many stripers that i know of.
> I had to the boat side that I lost the day I got 4 nice ones that was a 20lb+ fish, the only one I have ever seen in the lake.
> I do know of several trotliners who catch the really big ones like 25lb to 35lbs on the cut shad baited lines, but not that often.
> ...


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

Well thank you sunbeam for the great follow up on these awesome fish. Years ago when I guided below the dam it was not uncommon to catch stripers in the teens, but one over 20 was always a trophy and one heck of a fight. My largest was a 25lb fish caught while wading from the Southland Park entrance.
It nearly burned my arm off, but once in November about 1990 there was a bite of exceptionally large stripers for a couple of weeks, some over 40lbs were caught by salty dogs who fished there a lot.
That week I went with a friend who was a very good angler. I made a cast that went all the way to the trough under the rocks and handed him the rod and said "burn it back fast" he made a couple of rips when a huge striper exploded on the bait.
The water where it was hooked was only about 3' deep, and this fish jumped and greyhounded like a tarpon for several minuets. Ron then battled it to the boat about 3 times and each time it would make an awesome run all the way back to the trough. Finally he brought it boatside and all I had was a pitifull little landing net that would not even fit over it's head. The fish was an easy 40lbs and the biggest striper I have ever seen.
The long fight under exterme pressure had made a big hole where the hook was, and we watched the hook just fall out of it's mouth. The fish was so tired it layed there on it's side for a full 3 minuets before taking off. We did not speak to each other for several days, and still never talk about it.
SS


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## Kody Emmert (Oct 5, 2007)

Thanks for the great info. sunbeam and tecohorn....


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## surf-n-turf (Mar 19, 2005)

Thanks for sharing this info. My friends and I always have this same discussion about livingston striper size and never come to any good conclusions.


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## rocket34 (Jul 7, 2009)

Great information


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Unfortunately there is still no definitive conclusion. The TP&W really does not know much more than we do about the stripers in Livingston since the environment is very different from all the other Striper lakes in Texas.
Their main concern is to maintain a viable number of brood fish in the tail race. This is their only reliable source of brood fish every spring. They produce about 7 million striped bass and another 7 million hybrid fingerling's from fish obtained below Livingston every year.
They have the production split between the hatchery at Electra TX and Possum Kingdom to insure redundancy. 
I assume that in their big plan having the best catfish and white bass lake in the state should be enough. If we can drive to Fairfield to catch redfish I guess we can drive to the hot striper or hybrid lakes too. I wish we had big bruts that made 20 lb line obsolete but alas we may never see it.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Sunbeam said:


> ....I assume that in their big plan having the best catfish and white bass lake in the state should be enough. If we can drive to Fairfield to catch redfish I guess we can drive to the hot striper or hybrid lakes too.


Sorry, but I just don't agree. They are in effect penalizing local businesses and folks who fish Livingston( and buy fishing licenses) to help other lakes in Texas. The economic boom to the local area would be tremendous if there was a trophy hybrid fishery. Has anyone noticed that Beacon Bay Marina, arguably the best launching facility on the lake, has been on the market and in limbo for an extensive time period? Has anyone noticed that recently Freedom Shores went on the market? Have you noticed how well the new marina is doing(or not doing) on 190?

Further, I would really like for a biologist to definitively argue that hybrid stocking of Livingston would in any way be detrimental to their statewide stocking program. They have absolutely no problem identifying pure stock...and the really ridiculous thing is that hybrids are already in Livingston...just in small numbers, and not enough to be recognized as a fishery.

The obvious inequity is not something which I can agree with, not at all. Yes, I live in the area and support it, but even if I didn't, the inequity in their approach is not something I would agree with.

Please, TP&W, explain why Livingston isn't afforded the same benefits that other Texas lakes receive...all of which are funded by license buying fishers from all over the State.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

I agree with Meadowlark, there is no good reason to not stock them.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Don't shoot the messenger. Just relaying what was said when I ask the same question, "Why not stock hybrids?" I would love to see them in the lake.
Of course it all may be mute once the hydro plant is installed. The private contractor is studying the impact of the constant discharge being much further down stream. It appears that all of the water released will flow through the plant up to the maximum flow design. Only the rates above that will come through the existing spillway. It will only generate when the flow reaches a certain rate. 
But again this project is difficult to get any real data on at this time. Since it is not set in concrete there seems to be a gag order.
Most of what I have gleaned is from talking to contractors and TP&W personnel that have some knowledge of parts of the project. 
Did any one attend any of the meeting the last few years? Does any one know how a low flow/ low pressure hydro electric turbine system work?


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

I do know that the dam was built with this possibility in mind. If it is like other lakes with thermoelectric power generators the fishing will be almost completely determined by power generating periods. Lake Whitney is an example, the stripers show up very soon after they start generating and go away whenever it stops.You can't get information about when they will generate either to plan fishing trips.
The recent construction below the dam has changed the fishing a lot below the Livingston dam, it now drains water from a high discharge in a couple of days. Where as it used to take much longer and there would be a long window of great fishing as the discharge settled out.
I do wonder how the fishing in the lake will be affected too. At Toledo Bend the lower end of the lake has great fishing during discharges but will turn off quickly when it is stopped.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

Hydroelectric, my spell checker messed up.


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## tecohorn (Jun 16, 2009)

So much has changed below the dam since I started fishing there in the early 70's...

I can't really think of many good changes...

You use to be able to reach the rocks with 8 foot rod...

Hopefully the design is fish friendly..... It would be a shame to lose one of the best fishing spots in the world..

You would think since the stocking of striper is so important to TP&W they would be working hand and hand with the Hydro project...

If it does screw the fishing and stocking program up maybe they will decide to stock hybrids in the lake?

Also.... You would think since flow will be so important to the hydro project it would seem that maybe they would use more gradual releases in the future to store just a little more water so they could make a little more power.. Stoping at 1 foot above normal would be a lot of water saved and lot's of electricity over the long run..

AS SS said.... They run the water through fast and furious now... It's at 10,000 for a few days and bam!.. It's back to 1000cfs...

It does seem like it takes a long wet period now to keep that river pouring out of the dam now of days..

I recall when the Corps was working on the ship channel and decided to save a few million dollars at the expence of a billion dollar coastal fishery... Until some one pointed it out to them that if they controlled the silt a little better and used the mud to create new wetlands it would pay for it's self many times over..

I think there at 8 sq miles of new wetlands created and that habitat is so critical to young shrimp, fish, many types of birds and helps protect us from storm surges..

We will see... I just hope they don't decide to save a couple million dollars now and lose one of the great fisheries in america because of poor planning..

It can't be that hard... and should be required in the contract..


Sunbeam.... If you talk to him again could you ask him about that and maybe bring up my example..

I will report any info (length, weight, girth) about big stripers when I catch another one..


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## nightgigger (Oct 13, 2008)

Has anyone ever tried to fish for striped Bass in the Brazos river? It is one of the few rivers that does not have a dam close to the gulf.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

The hydro project owners (unknown to me, TRA?) have a private environmental contractor doing a impact study. Also a fellow named Nate Smith at the Heart Of The Hills Research Center is doing a study on the Livingston stripers. I believe it is related to the river fish. I have emailed him several times but he is not as responsive as the other TP&W folks. 
One of these groups has transmitters implanted in 50 fish that are swimming the river.
I plagiarized the item below from a web site. I believe it is part of a Houston Chronicle article but not sure. I apologize in advance if I am stepping on some ones toes. It is of interest to we striper groupies so here it is:

*Keeping tabs with tags*
In conjunction with a study on movement and habitat preferences of alligator gar in the Trinity River, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department inland fisheries researchers have for almost a year monitored movements of about 50 striped bass in the lower, undammed section of the river.
Those 50 stripers - ranging in size from about 18 inches to more than 25 pounds - were caught in the river (most just downstream from the Lake Livingston Dam), fit with small, internal radio transmitters, and released back into the waterway.
Each transmitter emits a unique frequency that identifies the individual fish. 
TPWD has placed a picket of underwater receivers - one each 15 miles or so - along the 110-mile stretch of the Trinity River from just below the Livingston Dam to the Wallisville area near where the river empties into Trinity Bay.
The receiver records the date and time any transmitter-fit fish passes the location. Researchers hope to learn when, where and how far the stripers move, if water level and flow rates affect that movement and which particular habitats are most attractive to the striped bass. 
While the research is ongoing, the tagged stripers have yielded some interesting insights.
"One of the things we've seen is that striped bass tend to move a lot - at least a lot more than gar," said Dave Buckmeier, fisheries researcher at TPWD's Heart of the Hills Fisheries Science Center, who is heading the alligator gar/striped bass project. "Some of the striped bass run the whole river. We've had several fish that have moved from the Livingston Dam to Wallisville and back."
And the fish sometimes make the trip in just a few days. 
Some of the tagged fish almost certainly go into the Galveston Bay system and perhaps even into the near shore Gulf, Buckmeier said. Over the past few years, it has not been unusual for anglers fishing Trinity Bay during autumn and winter to see occasional flurries of striped bass. 
Researchers are particularly interested in learning where the stripers in the river tend to congregate. Information could show the researchers certain habitats the fish need to survive.
Unquote
Note: I spoke to Buckmeir. He said it was Nate's project.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

nightgigger said:


> Has anyone ever tried to fish for striped Bass in the Brazos river? It is one of the few rivers that does not have a dam close to the gulf.


There are some tremendous stripers in the middle/upper Brazos. The photos don't lie. I know of one guide who offers guided kayak trips for them....and I'm planning a trip with him this fall. He has caught some simply unbelievable stripers in the river.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

My folks live in Whitney, and my dad is one of the best fishermen I have ever known. Before the golden algee impacted that fishery so bad he would catch stripers on Pencil Poppers and come home with a limit weeks on end, nice stripers in the teens and some 20lbs, Below the dam when they generate, stripers of unbelievable size(35 to 45+lbs) are caught, but not as many since the golden algae has hurt that fishery.
before the lake was hurt so bad by the golden algae there were many striper guides in the lake. they would mainly fish w/live gizzard shad. I don't know of many successful guides in the lake now that the fish die offs were so bad for several years running.


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## tecohorn (Jun 16, 2009)

Sunbeam said:


> The hydro project owners (unknown to me, TRA?) have a private environmental contractor doing a impact study. Also a fellow named Nate Smith at the Heart Of The Hills Research Center is doing a study on the Livingston stripers. I believe it is related to the river fish. I have emailed him several times but he is not as responsive as the other TP&W folks.
> One of these groups has transmitters implanted in 50 fish that are swimming the river.
> I plagiarized the item below from a web site. I believe it is part of a Houston Chronicle article but not sure. I apologize in advance if I am stepping on some ones toes. It is of interest to we striper groupies so here it is:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info..


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

There is a page on one of the TP&W websites concerning the algae. I just spent ten minutes trying to find it again but no luck. Maybe later.
It has had a huge financial impact on some of the lakes and also the lost revenue to the department. It's like lake cancer. They are learning to control it but no cure in site.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Sunbeam,

In your research, did you read anything about the habits of over 30 inch stripers?

Do they run with the schools of 25 inch stripers or do they tend to be loners?

I suspect they are loners...my experience with steelhead, rainbows, specs and other saltwater fish is that over 30 inch fish are usually loners. 

Appreciate any info you may have.


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## Sunbeam (Feb 24, 2009)

Nothing in the TP&W documents indicate that the large striped bass are loners. But the records list indicate that the fish above 30 lbs are rare in most fisheries both fresh and salt water.
All of the narratives I have found concerning various state and IGFA records indicate solo fish. In most if not all cases the record fish was the only fish caught during the trip. 
The world record was caught during a storm off the pier at Atlantic City back in the 20's... The second largest was the only fish caught during a local fireman's tourney off of Block Island at 1:30 AM.
The largest Texas fish was caught in the Brazos on 05/27/1999. It was 53 lbs at 48 inches. It tops the Texas Top 50 list. A Mr. Ron Venerable caught it.
A fish caught in Livingston is number 50 on the list. It is the only Livingston fish on the list. It was caught by CW Henry on 03/30/1986. 31.5 lbs at 37 inches has stood for 23 years. It does not say if it was above or below the dam.
The Guadalupe River has the most fish on the list including number 2 and 3 and four more down through number 22.
There has not been a fish added to the list since 1999 except for two fish that came from the Red River tail race when they let airboat in for a few years during 2000 to 2002.
Mark Webb at Bryan TP&W office said there could be a few 25 lbs plus fish in the lake but in all the years that they have done gill net samples they have never caught one.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Thanks for that info....sounds like getting one here might be akin to finding a needle in a haystack. Oh well, there's still some nice fish there we can all enjoy.


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## shadslinger (Aug 21, 2005)

To my knowledge Mr Henry, and his son caught several over that mark but stopped submitting them.


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