# Question for Shark Guys



## bamdvm (Apr 3, 2010)

I flyfish and therefore spend most of my time poling shallow flats. They are almost always loaded with stingrays of various sizes. I pass close enough to many of them that it would be super easy to gig a ton of them. It seems from reading some of the sharkfishing posts that rays are a favorite bait to use. My questions are this:

1. Are rays already pretty easily accessible to yall as bait or would it be worthwhile to gig a bunch to sell as bait?

2. Do yall prefer fresh rays or are frozen just fine?

3. Is there a size preference?

4. What is a reasonable price per ray?

5. What would be the best way to get them to the shark fishermen? 
Load a bunch in the cooler while fishing on Friday and then park at the entrance to PINS Friday afternoon with a sign that says "Fresh Rays"?

Truthfully, I would like to kill as many as possible to decrease chances of getting hit by one while wading some of these same flats but I hate to just stab them and leave them. Thought this might put them to good use and provide a little gas money.

Thanks.


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

online classifieds on extremecoast and corpusfishing would be good way to sell

but don't think you are reducing your chance of getting hit by gigging some rays... I am sure you are actually increasing your odds with the amount you'll be handling them


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## FIDO (Jun 14, 2011)

You're probably entering into something that is more trouble than it's worth. I mean just the legal factor alone will be a headache. Not because I care, but because a lot of finger pointers will jump all over you. You can sell them, but I wouldn't do it through a public forum or through a bait stand on the National Seashore :smile:

Fresh is best. Frozen is better than no bait at all.

Never been a bait seller and I catch my own bait so I don't know about prices, etc. Yes, they are easy to acquire. You're venture sounds like more of a local transaction than anything. Meeting someone at a Circle K or Valero store is probably the best bet.


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## FIDO (Jun 14, 2011)

Now that I'm thinking about it, just post on this forum when you're going fishing and have people let you know if they want some or not. That way, you know what you need to kill before you go. That would be a good idea. Talk money over the phone (even though the government will still know everything about it, you'll avoid the finger pointers on the forum).


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## bamdvm (Apr 3, 2010)

jc said:


> but don't think you are reducing your chance of getting hit by gigging some rays... I am sure you are actually increasing your odds with the amount you'll be handling them


I know that I wouldn't be making a dent in the population but it makes me sleep better thinking that I'm making the world a safer place one ray at a time.



FIDO said:


> You're probably entering into something that is more trouble than it's worth. I mean just the legal factor alone will be a headache.


I wasn't aware there were any legal issues. Is this illegal?

You're idea of "taking orders" before I go fish is a good one.

Any size preference?

Thanks again.


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## FIDO (Jun 14, 2011)

bamdvm said:


> I wasn't aware there were any legal issues. Is this illegal?
> 
> You're idea of "taking orders" before I go fish is a good one.
> 
> Any size preference?


Well, I thought you needed some type of license to sell fish, even as bait. You'll have to do follow up research on that. I'm not really the guy to give you the 100% right info there.

I do know you'll need a permit to sell anything on PINS. Unfortunately for bait sellers, I don't think they allow vendors of any kind on the beach though. There are types of exceptions. For example, we sell the spots for Sharkathon off site (website). BUT, we can't collect money for raffle tickets or anything else at base camp. That's actually a good thing because that would be one more thing to deal with.

Size depends on the fishermen, but I'd say it doesn't matter. If someone needs bait, they'll take the plate size ones up to the XL pizza size ones too. Even those 100lb sting rays often get cut up for bait. Come on!

Good luck and here's a butterfly :butterfly

(can you tell I'm new to 2cool?)


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## Sharkhunter (May 22, 2004)

I'm thinking your going to need a commercial license to sell to the public. However a friendly fuel donation might be an option between friends.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Sharkhunter said:


> I'm thinking your going to need a commercial license to sell to the public. However a friendly fuel donation might be an option between friends.


X2, no need to "over think" it


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

bamdvm said:


> Truthfully, I would like to kill as many as possible to decrease chances of getting hit by one while wading some of these same flats but I hate to just stab them and leave them.


I can't believe nobody is touching the ethical problem with your initial reason for gigging rays. To kill as many as you can just to reduce the chances of getting stuck while wading???? That's no better than the people who want to kill every shark they come across just because sharks are "evil".

I would like to be the first to introduce you to the 21st century, where real sportsmen don't kill fish just because (fill in the blank).

Maybe you should rethink your position and get back with us when you've evolved a bit more.

If I knew how to give a red, you would get one for this post.


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## bamdvm (Apr 3, 2010)

bigfost said:


> I can't believe nobody is touching the ethical problem with your initial reason for gigging rays. To kill as many as you can just to reduce the chances of getting stuck while wading???? That's no better than the people who want to kill every shark they come across just because sharks are "evil".
> 
> I would like to be the first to introduce you to the 21st century, where real sportsmen don't kill fish just because (fill in the blank).
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input and analysis Dr. Phil. If you could slow down your knee jerk emotional reaction to me saying I would like to kill stingrays and keep reading, I also said that I would hate to kill them and leave them and if someone could put them to good use as bait, then it's a win win situation. I'm sure I need to evolve in many aspects but the fact that I don't randomly give in to my blood lust and kill massive amounts of stingrays for no reason must indicate something about my progress toward being a "real sportsman" like you. Your logic would imply that all bait shops need to evolve because all they really do is indiscriminately kill. What did those poor croaker do to deserve that fate? Now what I was proposing was simple capitalism. If I can provide a product (that's already commercially available) but mine is fresher and at a better price (a superior product) and in the process I help defray my fuel costs and it makes me feel like I have less of a chance of getting hit by a ray (whether that's true or not) and the shark fishermen get a superior product for a superior price, then everyone is happy. I think you missed the whole point of the post. I'm glad you respect the resource but love of the environment without some common sense can be a dangerous thing.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

bamdvm said:


> Thanks for your input and analysis Dr. Phil. If you could slow down your knee jerk emotional reaction to me saying I would like to kill stingrays and keep reading, I also said that I would hate to kill them and leave them and if someone could put them to good use as bait, then it's a win win situation. I'm sure I need to evolve in many aspects but the fact that I don't randomly give in to my blood lust and kill massive amounts of stingrays for no reason must indicate something about my progress toward being a "real sportsman" like you. Your logic would imply that all bait shops need to evolve because all they really do is indiscriminately kill. What did those poor croaker do to deserve that fate? Now what I was proposing was simple capitalism. If I can provide a product (that's already commercially available) but mine is fresher and at a better price (a superior product) and in the process I help defray my fuel costs and it makes me feel like I have less of a chance of getting hit by a ray (whether that's true or not) and the shark fishermen get a superior product for a superior price, then everyone is happy. I think you missed the whole point of the post. I'm glad you respect the resource but love of the environment without some common sense can be a dangerous thing.


:rotfl: Well said.


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

bamdvm said:


> I think you missed the whole point of the post. I'm glad you respect the resource but love of the environment without some common sense can be a dangerous thing.


I don't think I missed the point at all. It was obvious you were considering the selling aspect to help justify the killing of the rays. However, it was also clear that the primary reason for killing the rays was to reduce the chances of your getting stuck. Those were your exact words. In fact, here's a quote, "Truthfully, I would like to kill as many as possible to decrease chances of getting hit by one."

It's a little late to be taking the high road now. Your true character was revealed in that quote.

Too bad if you , or your buddy spurgersalty, don't appreciate me calling you out, but it's people with mind sets like you that give the rest of us a bad name.

Oh, and common sense would be not admitting on the internet that if you can't find a market for them, you're still willing to kill rays, and let them rot, just to suit your fear. As you're obviously not aware, that would be breaking the law in the state of Texas. There is a law against the waste of the resource.

I don't expect you to change your mind. As I said in my original response, I was primarily commenting on the fact that none of the nature lovers here had bothered to comment on the breach of ethics that you expressed.


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## bamdvm (Apr 3, 2010)

bigfost said:


> In fact, here's a quote, "Truthfully, I would like to kill as many as possible to decrease chances of getting hit by one."
> 
> As I said in my original response, I was primarily commenting on the fact that none of the nature lovers here had bothered to comment on the breach of ethics that you expressed.





bamdvm said:


> Truthfully, I would like to kill as many as possible to decrease chances of getting hit by one while wading some of these same flats *but I hate to just stab them and leave them. Thought this might put them to good use* and provide a little gas money.
> 
> Thanks.


You would make a good reporter for a liberal newspaper. You like taking part of a quote and running with it? Here's the whole quote with the second part in bold for those too undisciplined to read past the evil killing of stingrays part. As for why none of the other nature lovers chimed in, it's because they have common sense and understand what the post is about and that to follow your logic would mean to close bait stands because they kill stuff for money. (Perish the thought) They also kill a lot of harmless species that don't stab you in the leg while you're wading so I guess what they do is actually worse.


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## Classic73Montauk (May 2, 2010)

bigfost said:


> I can't believe nobody is touching the ethical problem with your initial reason for gigging rays. *To kill as many as you can* *just to reduce the chances of getting stuck* while wading???? That's no better than the people who want to kill every shark they come across just because sharks are "evil".


Do you kill ants in your yard to reduce your chances of getting bitten? Do you put out rat traps or poison, knock down a Wasp nest?...If so, you are guilty of the same thing.

Lighten up:wink:


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

bamdvm said:


> You would make a good reporter for a liberal newspaper.


That's funny right there. Everyone who knows me knows I'm the farthest thing from a liberal.

To address the allegation you've made twice now, I have no problem with legitimate bait dealers, or shrimpers, or others who harvest marine life in the pursuit of their living. What I have a problem with is some coward who has acknowledged that he wants to kill every ray he comes across for fear of getting stuck by one, then decides as long as he's killing them anyway, he might as well make a buck off them. You are neither a sportsman, nor a legitimate commercial fisherman. You're just a cowardly outlaw.

I've made my point three times now. I never expected you to agree, and I'm tired of wallowing in the mud with you. I'm signing off.


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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

If fishing out of the boat with bait and someone brings one up, the dam tail/barb gets cut off every time before sending it on its way. Just verrrrry recently stopped bludgeoning it with a head bat, poking holes all thru it and setting it on fire before cutting off the tail and releasing it.

Im what you call conversation minded nowadays.

Geez


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

sotexhookset said:


> If fishing out of the boat with bait and someone brings one up, the dam tail/barb gets cut off every time before sending it on its way. Just verrrrry recently stopped bludgeoning it with a head bat, poking holes all thru it and setting it on fire before cutting off the tail and releas


Maybe I've given the 2cool surf fishing forum too much credit. Sounds like maybe it's become the gathering place for cowardly outlaws.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

bigfost said:


> Maybe I've given the 2cool surf fishing forum too much credit. Sounds like maybe it's become the gathering place for cowardly outlaws.


Or dense liberals that cut and spin statements to prove a fictitious point.

Â©


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## sotexhookset (Jun 4, 2011)

sotexhookset said:


> If fishing out of the boat with bait and someone brings one up, the dam tail/barb gets cut off every time before sending it on its way. Just verrrrry recently stopped bludgeoning it with a head bat, poking holes all thru it and setting it on fire before cutting off the tail and releasing it.
> 
> Im what you call conversation minded nowadays.
> 
> Geez





bigfost said:


> Maybe I've given the 2cool surf fishing forum too much credit. Sounds like maybe it's become the gathering place for cowardly outlaws.


Mr Bigfos. I forgot to address it for you. We think alike now don't we. I wish they would raise the speck limits to 25 a day like in Louisiana as I think I read one of your post a couple of months back that you stated the same.


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## bamdvm (Apr 3, 2010)

I won't force you to wallow in the mud with me anymore.



sotexhookset said:


> If fishing out of the boat with bait and someone brings one up, the dam tail/barb gets cut off every time before sending it on its way. Just verrrrry recently stopped bludgeoning it with a head bat, poking holes all thru it and setting it on fire before cutting off the tail and releasing it.
> 
> Im what you call conversation minded nowadays.
> 
> Geez


I'm glad to see you're evolving.:wink:



spurgersalty said:


> Or dense liberals that cut and spin statements to prove a fictitious point.
> 
> Â©


This.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

bigfost said:


> Maybe I've given the 2cool surf fishing forum too much credit. Sounds like maybe it's become the gathering place for cowardly outlaws.


I thought you were signing off. Obviously not. You make no point at all. Bait stands do exactly the same thing, just as the OP stated, but that is OK with you. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

Personally I hope I never see a stingray again. I hate them. As far as I am concerned they can all go away. Same with hardheads. I just don't like getting stuck by either. When I catch one of either species, I am going to give them an attitude adjustment before I handle them. You take that however you want to.


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## FIDO (Jun 14, 2011)

This is such a bummer. Yall would probably get along just fine if this were a conversation at a marina or fish cleaning table. One would talk about his dismay of the stingray, and the other would understand that as much as he would WANT to kill all of them, probably wouldn't go around doing it. You guys have way more in common than not.


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## Lone-Star (Dec 19, 2009)

Not worth your time.


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

I don't like hard heads...and I don't like rays, but to kill anything just cause someone is "SCARED" of it , is ignorant!


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## bamdvm (Apr 3, 2010)

bigfost said:


> I can't believe nobody is touching the ethical problem with your initial reason for gigging rays. To kill as many as you can just to reduce the chances of getting stuck while wading???? That's no better than the people who want to kill every shark they come across just because sharks are "evil".
> 
> I would like to be the first to introduce you to the 21st century,*where real sportsmen don't kill fish just because (fill in the blank).* where real sportmen don't kill fish just.. to make money? Baitshops? Oh, that's right, you said you were fine with it as long as they make a living at it. That makes them "legitimate" killers of fish. What do you think happens to all the bait they don't sell? Nice ideology.
> 
> ...





bigfost said:


> I don't think I missed the point at all.*It was obvious you were* considering the selling aspect to help justify the killing of the rays. *However, it was also clear that the primary reason for killing the rays was* Phrases like this show how you like to twist things and run with it just like the liberal media. If it was so obvious and so clear what my intentions were, why did you feel the need to clarify for everyone what I meant.?to reduce the chances of your getting stuck. Those were your exact words. In fact, here's a quote,* "Truthfully, I would like to kill as many as possible to decrease chances of getting hit by one."*Just because I would "like" to do something, doesn't mean I do it. I would "like" to bang every hot girl I see, but I don't do it because I'm married, I love my wife and I have self control. I'm not gonna apologize for not liking stingrays.
> 
> It's a little late to be taking the high road now. *Your true character was revealed in that quote.* You don't know me or my character but you are revealing yours with stooping to insults
> 
> ...





bigfost said:


> That's funny right there.* Everyone who knows me knows I'm the farthest thing from a liberal.* So far, you're logic on this topic reveals otherwise
> 
> To address the allegation you've made twice now,* I have no problem with legitimate bait dealers, or shrimpers, or others who harvest marine life in the pursuit of their living.* So it's not the killing you have a problem with, it's the motive? As long as it's to make a living, kill as much as you want? What about part time bait dealers? What percentage of their income do they need to make from bait sales to justify the killing of fish? Since you're reading comprehension is lacking, that's exactly what I proposed. The motive was to provide bait to shark fishermen and in the process defray fishing costs. A potential benefit would be less stingrays on the flats I wade. If all I wanted to do was kill stingrays, I would have been doing it for a long time now. What is so hard to understand about this? What I have a problem with is some *coward* Nice. What are we in 3rd grade? *who has acknowledged that he wants to kill every ray he comes across for fear of getting stuck by one, then decides as long as he's killing them anyway, he might as well make a buck off them.* You are stretching this way out based off of what I said. I'll admit that when I see a ray, I don't get warm fuzzies and I wish they weren't on the flat that I'm wading but you imply that I'm going around killing every ray in sight, leaving them to rot, and now it has occurred to me that since I'm already killing all these things, now I can make some money off of them as well as satisfy my bloodlust. This is ignorant. I came here to pose a question about the viability of harvesting some of these rays as shark bait. I had a good suggestion that I contact shark fishermen before I go fishing and if they need 5 rays, then I kill 5 rays. They get fresh bait. I get some gas money. Maybe there are less rays on that flat as a result. There is no wastage or senseless killing. Again, what is so hard to understand about this? *You are neither a sportsman, nor a legitimate commercial fisherman. You're just a cowardly outlaw.* Again, 3rd grade. C'mon man, let's be adults.
> 
> I've made my point three times now. I never expected you to agree, and I'm tired of wallowing in the mud with you. I'm signing off.





bigfost said:


> Maybe I've given the 2cool surf fishing forum too much credit.* Sounds like maybe it's become the gathering place for cowardly outlaws.* Now you're insulting everyone on this forum? Classy.





JOHNNYREB said:


> *I don't like hard heads...and I don't like rays, but to kill anything just cause someone is "SCARED" of it , is ignorant!*
> *This post is what can result when someone like bigfost is allowed to spout utter nonsense without being held accountable. This is similar to what happens with our media and government resulting in "low information" voters voting the way they do. I know from reading on here that johhnyreb is a good fisherman and a good sportsman but it's result of bigfost's diatribe that led him to post this. johhnyreb, I agree with you. Killing stuff just cause you're scare of it is ignorant and I think that if you'll read all the posts, you'll find that's not what I was proposing.*


For the record(for bigfost)

1. The way I fish brings me into close proximity to a large number of rays that would be relatively easy to harvest.
2. Even though the opportunity to harvest them exists, I don't kill them as I don't believe in killing stuff for no other reason than I don't like them.
3. I don't like them. Just being honest. When I see them, especially wading and they blow out a foot from where I just stepped, I wish they weren't there. If you love them bigfost and love wading with them, then good for you.
4. I have seen shark fishermen posting on here about where to get stingrays for bait.
5. I put two and two together and posted here for more info and suggestions. And I recieved some good suggestions aside from your drivel. Thanks for that.


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## bamdvm (Apr 3, 2010)

Sorry to clutter up yall's board with this stuff. Just felt compelled to address some of that stuff.

On a side note, I read this part of the forum regularly and have a great respect for what yall do. Other than throwing a flyrod in the surf a few times, I know nothing about surf fishing but am always impressed by yalls dedication and what yall are able to accomplish out on the sand. Thanks again for your input on this.


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## HuntinforTail (Mar 29, 2011)

bamdvm said:


> Sorry to clutter up yall's board with this stuff. Just felt compelled to address some of that stuff.
> 
> On a side note, I read this part of the forum regularly and have a great respect for what yall do. Other than throwing a flyrod in the surf a few times, I know nothing about surf fishing but am always impressed by yalls dedication and what yall are able to accomplish out on the sand. Thanks again for your input on this.


Don't let him ruffle your feathers. Best bet is just to ignore the guy, but I understand the need to clarify your original intent that he muddled. He's hardheaded and opinionated and doesn't mind being a jerk about it. That's not meant to be an insult, i'm sure he'd agree with me on that statement.

Probably time to let this post die...

Oh and if you were in the Galveston area i'd be willing to trade some gas money for rays. I'm fresh out!


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

*Gulf Coast Surf Fishing Message Board* Surf fishing with conservation in mind

people still kill sharks with no intent of eating them regardless of the message we spread down here. its been nice to not have too many threads down here bashing other's kill mentality but this has to be a first with stingarays. I tried to gently point out the idiocy of killing them to reduce the chances of getting hit by one... others thru the years, mostly older, experienced outdoorsmen have pointed out how pointless it is to kill or debarb rays if they are just going to waste. The fact that these rays might go to bait makes it somewhat better but as pointed out, the OP needs to do this legally unless he's just collecting a few for himself and friends... and whoever is still killing hardheads for funsies is hopefully disposing of them properly rather than leaving the rest of us to pick them up with our truck tires


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

shaggydog said:


> I thought you were signing off. Obviously not. You make no point at all. Bait stands do exactly the same thing, just as the OP stated, but that is OK with you. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.
> 
> Personally I hope I never see a stingray again. I hate them. As far as I am concerned they can all go away. Same with hardheads. I just don't like getting stuck by either. When I catch one of either species, I am going to give them an attitude adjustment before I handle them. You take that however you want to.


Hey bamdvm.....WRONG! Lol.....^^^^ This is the guy my post was referring too. I don't allow what others think to cloud my judgements....I pretty much march to the beat of my drum.:wink:


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## jmhall87 (Jan 21, 2013)

Hats off to bigfrost everybody, he has agreed to stop fishing altogether for fear of injuring bait or the fish itself. Perhaps he plans to live on tofu the rest of his life.


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## bigfost (Oct 11, 2004)

jmhall87 said:


> Hats off to bigfrost everybody, he has agreed to stop fishing altogether for fear of injuring bait or the fish itself. Perhaps he plans to live on tofu the rest of his life.


You guys really had me going. I thought some of you were mad at me, or were making fun of me. I should have realized that you were just kidding me. :doowapsta

Nobody could be so stupid to intentionally misunderstand the clearly presented point I was making that there is a huge difference between bait dealers and commercial fishermen, and some coward who wants to kill rays just because he's afraid of them.

Good joke guy. You got me.:bounce:
Oh, and for those who can't read so well. The name is B-I-G-F-O-S-T, not bigfrost. But that's okay, I realize your low IQ prevents you from learning to read better.

Y'all have a nice day now.


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## jmhall87 (Jan 21, 2013)

This is fun lol anybody wanna talk about croaker?


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## reeltimer (Feb 5, 2010)

jmhall87 said:


> This is fun lol anybody wanna talk about croaker?


Yes just this past weekend I killed 8 dozen and I'm riddled with guilty I didn't buy more.

sent from my taxpayer-funded sail phone and yes the government is tapped into my talk


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## FIDO (Jun 14, 2011)

I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything, but um...

bamdvm, you would happen to be going fishing today or tomorrow would you? I'm taking the nephew down island for a quick day trip Saturday and I don't have time to make bait. Perhaps you could hook me up with a stingray? Not sure where you live, but I'm in Aransas Pass. Thanks.


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## FIDO (Jun 14, 2011)

JOHNNYREB said:


> Hey bamdvm.....WRONG! Lol.....^^^^ This is the guy my post was referring too. I don't allow what others think to cloud my judgements....I pretty much march to the beat of my drum.:wink:


Hey Johnnyreb!

About your drum beat... Is it like this? I kind of think it might be like this:





 
Imagine all the fishing related activities that go with this beat! Fighting a fish. Rigging a bait. Setting up a tent cot. Driving past the angry turtle patrol who tried to stop you. Pure awesome!


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

LOL....there are no "Freddy" types in my band! 

:an6:


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## fishhawkxxx (Jul 7, 2012)

lol


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Hurry! Kill'em all! They're trying to breed US out!!!!








Â©


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

JOHNNYREB said:


> Hey bamdvm.....WRONG! Lol.....^^^^ This is the guy my post was referring too. I don't allow what others think to cloud my judgements....I pretty much march to the beat of my drum.:wink:


Still haven't signed off, huh. Nothing like a man keeping his word. I march to the beat of my own drum also, and will continue to give them all an attitude adjustment. Will not seek them out to kill them, but if it is them or possibly me.......well you get the idea.


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## saltwatersensations (Aug 30, 2004)

Kill all them stingrays........I bet you could get rid of a lot of them to shark fishermen.


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

shaggydog said:


> Still haven't signed off, huh. Nothing like a man keeping his word. I march to the beat of my own drum also, and will continue to give them all an attitude adjustment. Will not seek them out to kill them, but if it is them or possibly me.......well you get the idea.


we need bad examples too... the image is just too funny, an old guy acting like a little kid who gives hardheads and rays "attitude adjustments" lmao


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

jc said:


> we need bad examples too... the image is just too funny, an old guy acting like a little kid who gives hardheads and rays "attitude adjustments" lmao


Laugh all you want. Just doing a public service. Don't really care what you think.


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

thanks for all you do!


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

jc said:


> thanks for all you do!


Anytime.


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## JOHNNYREB (Apr 20, 2006)

shaggydog said:


> Still haven't signed off, huh. Nothing like a man keeping his word. I march to the beat of my own drum also, and will continue to give them all an attitude adjustment. Will not seek them out to kill them, but if it is them or possibly me.......well you get the idea.


Not sure what your getting at with "sighing off" or " being a man of his word" I never mentioned either one....but it's cool! We're all guilty of senseless killing of something or another.....myself, I like to smash the heads of all those ankle biting yorky looking dogs that I come across....I hate them **** things!


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## 535 (May 23, 2004)

ha! I just give those annoying little rats an attitude adjustment but I don't have a problem with you smashing their stupid little heads...


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