# dove load question



## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

I've always just bought the cheap stuff at Academy/Walmart for dove hunting. 12 gauge, 8 shot , cheapest I could buy.

Do you guys do the same or is an upgrade worth the effort. I typically will never shoot enough shells in a given season where a couple bucks a box more for something diffferent/better couldnt be afforded.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

I'm sure you're going to hear loads of people extolling the virtues of high-dollar high-brass loads, but not from me: I will scratch your #8's: as long as 7.5s and 6's are available in the same load, I'll go for those every time. If you need the high-dollar stuff, you're really probably shooting at some birds that you shouldn't be shooting at. Anything in "legitimate" range will get folded pretty hard by the cheap stuff.. The one round I won't get is the Remington heavy dove loads: too slow and kick too hard for me. My personal favorite for the application, although they don't go on sale anymore, is the Wal-mart Winchester Super-speeds. Low kick, fast load, good-quality hard shot, everything I want. I shoot more 28 gauge than anything at doves now, though, and that's just kind of a take what you can get unless you bring a very large checkbook to the table...


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## Cody C (May 15, 2009)

I shoot whatever is the cheapest on that day. I have never had a problem with them either. I have shot some better shells and I think they maybe a little better at longer distances, but like dwilliams said, if you can't hit them with the cheap shells, you probably don't need to be shooting at them. But its like buying a $300 custom fishing rod. Do you need it to catch fish or will the ugly stick work just as good?

The only time you NEED the better shells is when you are shooting an auto and need the increase power for a clean ejection.

Glad I stocked up on shells last year, don't know if we'll see them that low again :/


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Another thing, as far as long shots go, I've kind of come to the conclusion that it's more a function of having good shot than it is a lot of powder: the really cheap shells will more often than not have really cheap pellets which get deformed upon firing: they fly every which way and blow your pattern beyond a certain yardage. Keep them flying the right direction, and a big load of powder is all but irrelevant: thus my "favorite" I mentioned before: they've got a very small load of high-quality shot instead of an average or large load of the cheap stuff: makes a real difference at the outer edge of the range.. Without detaching your retinas..


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## fin&feather (Jun 24, 2008)

I like to shoot the new field and skeet steel shot loads that Academy came out with last year. Best guess was $8 a box but the increase in kill ratio made up the price real fast, not to mention I was legal when buzzed by teal and that's a good thing to keep in mind when if your area offers both. Now I don't know how well all the decoys and dove whistle helped but don't plan on the white wings circling your spread a third time.


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## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

High brass 20 ga will out shoot low brass 12 ga day in and day out. I like watching the guys with cheap low brass 12 ga either miss or only knock a feather or two out, only to have the same dove dropped stone dead with high brass 20's. Well worth the extra few bucks per box. Good for your average and good for the doves, it will cut the amount of cripples way down. And when you limit out with one or two boxes instead of two or four it makes good sense money wies.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Been shootin the remington heavy dove nr 8's for years in my 20 ga. The cheaper Winchesters just dont do the job. Less shot loaded in them.

Charlie


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

yeah, whatever. Keep drinkin' the high-brass koolaid.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

CHARLIE said:


> Been shootin the remington heavy dove nr 8's for years in my 20 ga. The cheaper Winchesters just dont do the job. Less shot loaded in them.
> 
> Charlie


 Which cheaper Winchesters? Remember, you get more out of velocity than you do out of mass... Energy equals mass x velocity squared. If that lighter load means it's faster, it's going to hit harder.


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## fin&feather (Jun 24, 2008)

One has to consider the area at hand when choosing high or low brass, low hardly puts a dent into feeders and high brass makes it all the way to the top wire. So it's all about preference


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Hey DWilliams,

Have you ever actually patterned your shotgun shooting those cheap loads? Probably not. I would venture to say if you had, you might have a different opinion. The dove/quail loads use the cheapest, softest chilled shot there is, and their wads, if you can call them that, are garbage. That shot gets totally deformed going down the barrel, and immediately start to disburse the instant they leave the bbl.

I repped for Remington for 5 years, got to tour their plant in Ilion NY, and the whole deal. As a result I did a lot of patterning shotguns with different loads, chokes, etc. in the desert of Reno, Nv. I used 30" butcher paper hung on a rack, and stepped back and shot at various ranges, changing loads, chokes, etc.. Then counting the number of hits within different diameter circles, and checking out the consitency of the patterns. TRUST ME THE DIFFERENCES ARE DRAMATIC.

Magnum/HARD shot and good shot cups in the more expensive ammo makes a HUGE difference in the quality and consistency of your pattern, because the integrity/roundness of the shot stays in tact thus giving much more consistent patterns. YOu know I guess if that dove/quail ammo were really so good, why wouldn't the shooters who make their livings shooting (sporting clays, skeet, trap) use it???? Hmmm.

Also when you add up all the money you spend on your lease, your gas, hotel, etc. if you shoot 2-4 boxes a day for a 2 day hunt, and it costs you$10-20 more dollars to shoot good ammo??? Cmon!!!

I have a brother in law who is an oral surgeon ($350k/yr), who shoots $5000 shotguns, and takes $3000 bird hunting trips. For years he shot dove and quail ammo. When I took him out one day and showed him what that garbage does on a patterning board, he was shocked, and changed to good ammo immediately.

Just my opinion. There are some things where the extra money is not worth it, but shotgun ammo is not one of them.

By the way high brass, and low brass has nothing to do with anything. In the old days it did, but not today. A 1200 fps 7.5 has the exact energy whether it comes out of a low brass shell or a high brass shell or a 12 ga or a .410. It's still one pellet traveling 1200 fps. Also most of the time a "magnum load" is not more powerful. It doesn't go faster, it just has more shot in the load, and is often slower velocity- thus less killing power per pellet. The fact that it has more pellets is the advantage, but only if you get a good consistent pattern. More shot, especially chilled/soft shot, that gets disbursed because it gets deformed going down the bbl, and because the shot cup is inefficient, just hurts your shoulder that much more.

As a caviat, my statements above will not necessarily apply to every gun/choke tube combination. There will definitely be some guns/choke tube combinations out there which will shoot fantastic patterns with the cheaper ammo, and if so, go for it. None of my 15 shotguns does. But I've said in many other threads over the years, the two biggest mistakes that most shotgunners make are: shooting a gun that doesn't fit them, and not patterning their guns to see what they are actually doing.

Believe it or not there are many sporting clays shooters who shoot 1 oz, or even 7/8 oz loads in their 12 ga. It often times gives them a more consistent pattern thus killing more birds.

THE JAMMER



dwilliams35 said:


> yeah, whatever. Keep drinkin' the high-brass koolaid.


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

if yer payin' $100/day for doves, go with the hi-bux stuff.
I hunt my land and invites and limits are not important, so I shoot the cheap stuff.
i'd rather not limit out with less than a box(not much chance of that happin' anyway)


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## poco jim (Jun 28, 2010)

x2 what dwilliams35 said, if your paying top dollar for a hunt I may think different, but just to go dove hunting he's right.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

If that were totally true, then we should be shooting our Cape Buffalo with 3000 fps 62 gr 223's instead of 2100 fps 250- 300 gr 375 H&H mags??? Also which weight carries its energy further out?? Light or heavy. Which one loses velocity faster?? Light or heavy.



dwilliams35 said:


> Which cheaper Winchesters? Remember, you get more out of velocity than you do out of mass... Energy equals mass x velocity squared. If that lighter load means it's faster, it's going to hit harder.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

I read your other posts to which I've already responded before I read this one. AFter reading this one soundS like you and I are more on the same page than I originally thought. Good quality shot and good patterns are the key. I agree.

THE JAMMER



dwilliams35 said:


> Another thing, as far as long shots go, I've kind of come to the conclusion that it's more a function of having good shot than it is a lot of powder: the really cheap shells will more often than not have really cheap pellets which get deformed upon firing: they fly every which way and blow your pattern beyond a certain yardage. Keep them flying the right direction, and a big load of powder is all but irrelevant: thus my "favorite" I mentioned before: they've got a very small load of high-quality shot instead of an average or large load of the cheap stuff: makes a real difference at the outer edge of the range.. Without detaching your retinas..


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## essayons75 (May 15, 2006)

THE JAMMER said:


> *I repped for Remington for 5 years*, got to tour their plant in Ilion NY, and the whole deal. As a result I did a lot of patterning shotguns with different loads, chokes, etc. in the desert of Reno, Nv. I used 30" butcher paper hung on a rack, and stepped back and shot at various ranges, changing loads, chokes, etc.. Then counting the number of hits within different diameter circles, and checking out the consitency of the patterns. TRUST ME THE DIFFERENCES ARE DRAMATIC.


*I repped branded pharmaceuticals* for years and I had all kinds of data created by the company to convince MDs branded was better the generics. I now sell generics and have all of the data to show generics are just as good and hold the same FDA approvals as branded if manufactured by a reputable company. 

Long story short, it is what works in the field and in the patient population. Butcher paper and laboratory studies mean nothing. They are a start, but effectiveness, or efficacy in the pharma world is what it is all about!

Ask a vacuum cleaner salesman if he can pick-up dirt with the cheapest vacuum when run behind the high dollar one


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Totally unrealistic analogy. In shotgun shells you're talking about totally different components which give totally differenct results. In pharma, and I know because I take a lot of them LOL, you get the exact same results with generics. FDA approvals hold the same FDA approvals- meaning just as effective as name brand. NOT SO WITH SHOTGUN SHELLS. DRASTIC DIFFERENCES IN PERFORMANCE!!!

In saying that I repped for Remington, I wasn't saying that necessarily gave me more knowledge. I was just saying that it stimulated me to go out on my own and compile the data so as to gain the knowledge.

THE JAMMER



essayons75 said:


> *I repped branded pharmaceuticals* for years and I had all kinds of data created by the company to convince MDs branded was better the generics. I now sell generics and have all of the data to show generics are just as good and hold the same FDA approvals as branded if manufactured by a reputable company.
> 
> Long story short, it is what works in the field and in the patient population. Butcher paper and laboratory studies mean nothing. They are a start, but effectiveness, or efficacy in the pharma world is what it is all about!
> 
> Ask a vacuum cleaner salesman if he can pick-up dirt with the cheapest vacuum when run behind the high dollar one


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

THE JAMMER said:


> I read your other posts to which I've already responded before I read this one. AFter reading this one soundS like you and I are more on the same page than I originally thought. Good quality shot and good patterns are the key. I agree.
> 
> THE JAMMER


Well, glad you went through all that so I didn't have to: 

Those Winchester Super-Speeds were a test-market way back when by Winchester: they took off back then, but have seemed to slide in recent years: Until I started shooting 28's almost exclusively, they were my go-to shell, and still are if I pick up the 12 or the 20 instead... The whole concept was to downsize the AMOUNT of components rather than the QUALITY and end up at the same cost level as the cheap stuff: the only real sacrifice of quality was in the base, which, while originally a short brass base, and ultimately ended up going to aluminum. The result is a 1350 fpm round throwing a sub-size load of good shot: it's functionally identical to some of the reduced-recoil AA ultralight shells without the case, which really doesn't have that much effect on what's going out the barrel.

By coincidence, these things hit the market right about the time that I had the opportunity to shoot a few rounds of clays with Bob Brister: he had just recently been released to start shooting again after surgery to repair his detached retinas from the extreme amount of heavy recoil that he had put himself through over the years. His explanation of the low-recoil , high-velocity "theory", based on number of pellets in a given pattern, number of pellets needed to actually kill a dove, etc. etc. etc. really made an impression on me at the time. The low-recoil rounds were actually required by his doctor. Considering the amount of rounds that I was sending downrange at the time, I kind of considered that somewhat of a warning, and started to move to the "ultralight" direction.. I dropped a bunch of money on Briley chokes (before they got to be the behemoth that they are now) to further improve the patterns, counted more circled pellet holes than I ever want to remember, and ended up staying in the ultralight arena..

Lo and behold, the beginning of the Super Speed Test market experiment. They were going up against the Remington Shurshot Heavy Dove Load, the "cheap" standard-bearer at the time: The fact that you get more terminal energy out of velocity than you do mass, keeping good shot in the tube so that deformed pellets don't blow your pattern, etc. just, IMHO, made a very, very effective dove round, without the beating that the HDL gives you in comparison.. There's a lot of other players in the bottom-of-the barrel game now, of varying qualities...but I've still got a pretty good crate of the Super Speeds in my garage, and I still see them on the shelf: they've moved away from the "end cap sale" and will cost you sixty bucks a case, but I'd still pay it if I ever need to restock..

I'm still shooting the ultralight end: I've gone down to ultralight shotguns for the most part instead of ultralight rounds, and of course my ammo cost per box has gone up considerably as a result, but the one thing still applies: you've just got to hit 'em.. Put a bird in the center of a decent pattern at any legitimate range, and he's going down: that applies whether it's the cheapest chinese shell or a Remington nitro-mag.. All we can really control on it is making sure that that pattern stays intact: thus I don't have a factory choke left on any gun (save some fixed choke models I've got), stick with good shot, no matter how much the shell costs, and practice, practice, practice.... A bird really can't tell the difference if it gets hit by a 1100 fps #7 1/2 from a $3 a box shell or a $11/ box shell: all you've got to do is hit it WITHIN THE PARAMETERS OF YOUR PATTERN. If a cheap round has a blown pattern, that won't really in all likelihood manifest itself until what is probably beyond the average dove range. A better pattern with better shot, etc., may or may not be an improvement, but at the same velocities, it still takes X number of pellets to kill a bird: all the rest don't matter. With thousands of pellets in that round, the chances are really, really good that it won't matter how good the shell is.. IF YOU HIT THE BIRD....

Just for the record, I've got some Nitro-mags, Express Long-Range, Federal Premium, etc. in the box too: I save that for pheasant hunting and other applications where you need as much lead as you can get at longer ranges...


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

THE JAMMER said:


> If that were totally true, then we should be shooting our Cape Buffalo with 3000 fps 62 gr 223's instead of 2100 fps 250- 300 gr 375 H&H mags??? Also which weight carries its energy further out?? Light or heavy. Which one loses velocity faster?? Light or heavy.


 You're talking two different things: terminal energy vs. ballistics: completely different animals which apply at different times in the bullet's flight. The basic formula for energy is Mass times Velocity squared, thus if you're shooting a 100g round at 10 fps, you're going to have four times the actual energy of the same round shot at 5 fps: 10 squared vs. 5 squared.. Apply that to 1000 fps vs 1350 fps, and the same thing applies, pull out your calculator. The size of the bullet, Ballistic Coefficient, terminal expansion, etc. all come into play on flight ballistics, expansion characteristics once you hit flesh, etc. etc.: That doesn't change the fact that when it touches the first hair on an animal, the amount of energy available for it to do it's work relies more on velocity at that point than it does size of the bullet. The rest is up to other factors..
Applied to shotguns instead of rifles, after you pull the trigger, besides some aerodynamic effect in shot strings, each pellet is it's own bullet, and they're functionally identical. If you double the speed, you'll experience an energy increase that's well beyond double... 
That's why you're seeing 1700 fps steel shot loads: they figured out long ago that since steel has less density than lead, they've got to retain a lethal amount of energy somehow: so they put a buttload of powder behind it, drove it to ludicrous speed, and count on the increased velocity to make up for the decrease in mass at any given distance.. Steel loses velocity in a hurry: if it loses it to a still-lethal velocity at the bird, you're still okay. Otherwise, you're bouncing it off feathers...


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## nhampton (Aug 8, 2007)

IMO some of the more expensive rounds do provide better velocity and denser patterns with the same choke, but if you're one of the "average" dove hunters that fire 6 to 8 rounds to get one bird, I doubt that you will be able to notice the difference. I think the greatest majority of time you're not close enough to the bird to make a difference in your bird to shot ratio. You'd probably be better off using the cheap shells and investing in a few rounds of skeet. If you can center the birds in the pattern both types of shells will kill the birds, the difference comes when you miss by a little bit. That's when the quality of shells can make a difference.


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## essayons75 (May 15, 2006)

I decided to just upgrade my gun (post #13).

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=297524&highlight=warren&page=2


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## Capt Scott Reeh (Jan 21, 2006)

wampuscat said:


> High brass 20 ga will out shoot low brass 12 ga day in and day out. I like watching the guys with cheap low brass 12 ga either miss or only knock a feather or two out, only to have the same dove dropped stone dead with high brass 20's. Well worth the extra few bucks per box. Good for your average and good for the doves, it will cut the amount of cripples way down. And when you limit out with one or two boxes instead of two or four it makes good sense money wies.


X2 !!!!


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

nhampton said:


> If you can center the birds in the pattern both types of shells will kill the birds, the difference comes when you miss by a little bit. That's when the quality of shells can make a difference.


 Which is just another way of saying that high-dollar shells are basically a crutch for people that can't shoot.

There, that oughta stir 'em up..:tongue:


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## rusty2009 (Mar 5, 2010)

The biggest problem is the shooter not adjusting to the shotgun and the shells you are putting in it. Take the guy that said 20 hi brass will out shoot 12 low brass all day long. This will happen only if the shooter of the 12GA does not know how to shoot the shotgun with the load he is shooting. If the 12GA shooter is proficient with his shotgun the killing ratio will be about the same. I have been hunting for years with 12 and 20 gauge shotguns and even 410 on occasion. When I switch from one gun to the next I have to change my shooting habits a little. the 20 GA shells are a little faster so i have to lead less than the 12GA low brass shell which I have to lead more. If you practice on skeet it does not matter if you shoot low brass or not you just need to learn the proper lead on the bird for the ammo you are shooting. I have been hunting with guys that say the shells are junk or this shotgun sucks . It is not the gun or the ammo's fault you can't shoot. I have taken the same gun that they have been using all day and not killing anything and kill just find with it. I hand them the shotgun I have been shooting and till them where to lead the bird with the ammo I am shooting that day and they will do fine. One way to become a good shot is to use the same gun and same ammo don't buy every brand just because it is cheap. If you want to shoot cheap ammo that is fine. By buying a case or two in the same lot numbers just like rifle ammo you will become a better shooter. Learn the ammo and the load you are shooting with practice you will be a better shooter. I person ONLY shoot Remington ammo in the green and orange boxes the green shells for 12 GA and yellow for twenty. I am by no means the greatest shot in the world but I hold my on. I used to buy the cheapest on sale ammo and I watched my proficiency go down. went back to shooting then same ammo things got better. So what ever brand you decide on keep shooting that brand. I only change shoot size on winding days. On windy days I shoot 6's on normal days 7.5's . Good luck this season just bring the gun to you shoulder the same way every time you shoot. Shoot the same ammo and you will learn what your shotgun is pattering. By having somebody stand right behind you looking down the barrel as you shoot at bird or clays they can tell you what you are doing. If you are shooting behind increase your lead if ahead decrease your lead. Oh and the most important thing DONT AIM, Point a shotgun. When you are aiming you are stopping the gun. Think about this. If you are hitting the bird on you second or third shoot, it is because for are aiming on the first shoot an reacting on the second shot. Try not putting up your shotgun until you are ready to shoot. Just snap the gun up and shoot at the bird has fast has you can. This will help you from taking to much time to aim and will help you with the follow through of the shot and you will kill more birds on the first shot!


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

One thing that really taught me about this stuff was Argentina: those were by "our" standards pretty cheap shells. Despite that, once you learn the shell as Rusty said, you can't freakin' miss. After you drop around a thousand birds a day for four days with the same shells and the same gun, you just basically can't miss. Long shots, short shots, no matter what: you instinctively know where that pattern's going and you're going to drop the bird. With or without buffered hi-brass worth fifteen bucks a box....


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

I really dont understand how anyoe misses with a 12 Ga unless the shot is just way too far.

Charlie


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## rusty2009 (Mar 5, 2010)

CHARLIE said:


> I really dont understand how anyoe misses with a 12 Ga unless the shot is just way too far.
> 
> Charlie


 I is beauase they are aiming the shotgun 90% of time and not following through with the shot. Which means they are not leading properly.


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## rusty2009 (Mar 5, 2010)

If more people would learn the proper way to shoulder a shotgun, they would become better shots


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## Blackgar (Aug 4, 2004)

I've shot the same 12ga for 25 years & will shoot the cheapest ammo with #6 shot that I can buy, but when it comes to the ozone flying white wings I'll switch to the 3 3/4---- 1 1/4 # 6 for them with a full tube, there is no such thing as too high !!!


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## elpistolero45 (May 9, 2010)

CHARLIE said:


> I really dont understand how anyoe misses with a 12 Ga unless the shot is just way too far.
> 
> Charlie


Yeah.. I didn't start using a 12ga until I HAD to use glasses to tell Mourning Doves from Mockingbirds..... For a guy who shot a .410 the first 23 years of his life, then switched to a 20ga ... it was hard to take.

An analogy I like to use is:
Shooting a .410 is like using a pattern the size of a beachball
a 20ga is like using a pattern the size of a cast net
a 12ga is like using a pattern the size of a minnow seine.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

dwilliams35 said:


> Which is just another way of saying that high-dollar shells are basically a crutch for people that can't shoot.
> 
> There, that oughta stir 'em up..:tongue:


I'm all about that Dwilliams! Good shooters know their limits. If you've got to shoo a box of shells to kill a limit of dove, then you need to seriously re-evaluate your idea of conservation, and take a trip to the range.

Proficiency= quick humane kills!!!!
Don't give PETA any more ammo!


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## grand poobah (Nov 6, 2007)

*SHELLS*

Help!! I've got Attention Deficit Disorder(ADD). These post are way to long & detailed. I've been shooting remington 1 1/8 shot for 20 years & have never missed a dove, they just don't fall at times.

Grand Poodah:spineyes:


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## jeffscout (Jun 22, 2004)

One way to solve the problem is to shoot a 28 gauge. If you are buying shells versus loading them yourself, you are guaranteed to get the high end shells. There is no choice! I've always preferred and done best with Winchester AA's, though...that's what I shoot in my 28 and usually knock 'em pretty good.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

jeffscout said:


> One way to solve the problem is to shoot a 28 gauge. If you are buying shells versus loading them yourself, you are guaranteed to get the high end shells. There is no choice! I've always preferred and done best with Winchester AA's, though...that's what I shoot in my 28 and usually knock 'em pretty good.


Nope, there's plenty of lower-end (although that's eight bucks a box at the moment) italian, brazilian, czech, etc. shells out there, mainly online, for the 28... If you're saying get what you can get at Bass Pro Shops or Academy, yep, you're right: there's a lot of stuff out there though. Still works well in the hands of somebody that can shoot... I generally get a case a year online, and that about always carries me through the season...


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## jeffscout (Jun 22, 2004)

I last bought Winchester 7.5 AA's for my 28 for $9.99/box, bought 2 cases. BPS had them last year for $10/box, not sure what they are getting now. My Academy only has 28's in 9 shot and I think they are $13. 

I see no need to go cheap and save $2 for unknown off brand ammo, but that's just my opinion.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

jeffscout said:


> I last bought Winchester 7.5 AA's for my 28 for $9.99/box, bought 2 cases. BPS had them last year for $10/box, not sure what they are getting now. My Academy only has 28's in 9 shot and I think they are $13.
> 
> I see no need to go cheap and save $2 for unknown off brand ammo, but that's just my opinion.


 Well, like they say, you gotta get what you can get: if I found some 7.5 AA's for ten bucks, I'd buy a case. Meanwhile, I'm getting what I can get to keep on shootin'... Doesn't seem to affect my actual percentages any, I'd just love to get the AA hulls... I've been pretty happy with the Rio's that have been out for a few years, (and have probably been the most available thing out there) , have shot a few ringnecks with some Centurions (italian) I got this year: we'll see how they survive a dove season, but so far so good. The first few years I had the gun Estate's green box was available for about six or seven bucks a box: I liked those a lot.. Haven't seen them under ten or eleven bucks for about four years now.. And NO FREAKIN WAY I'm shooting any 9 shot at a dove.... If BPS and Academy would start listening to their market, we'd have some: I stood there in American Shooting Center's shop one time as we talked about this to a guy who happened to be a buyer for academy: there we were with about six guys that ALL were shooting 28's, the store manager saying that's probably about 40% of the guns he's selling right now, and this guy didn't have a clue: he was saying "do you think there's a market for those" well duh... They apparently still never got the concept...


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## jeffscout (Jun 22, 2004)

dwilliams35 said:


> Well, like they say, you gotta get what you can get: if I found some 7.5 AA's for ten bucks, I'd buy a case. Meanwhile, I'm getting what I can get to keep on shootin'... Doesn't seem to affect my actual percentages any, I'd just love to get the AA hulls...


I'm guessing this link will make you happy...and I think I may have gotten mine at that same price. $8.90/box for full cases! :doowapsta
http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/product.php?productid=5571&cat=743&page=1

That's where I got mine last year! They list the Estate's at $8.10/box and Remington STS (never shot them, but think they are Rem's answer to the ever-popular AA's) are also $8.90. I had no problems with the order and don't hesitate to recommend them to you...and not affiliated in any way other than happy I found them last year!


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## jeffscout (Jun 22, 2004)

Forgot this part...it get's better with Winchester's $2/box rebate on full case purchases...brings you down to $6.90/box!
http://www.winchester.com/library/special-offers/Pages/In-the-Bag-with-AA.aspx


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Thanks, Dude: looks like the next two years are getting covered NOW.....


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

elpistelero45

Well I always thought the patterns (diameter) WERE ABOUT THE SAME EXCEPT MORE bb's in the bigger Guage. 

Charlie


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

When shot out of the same gun/choke, cheap shells with chilled shot and inferior shot cups will shoot wider- less consistent patterns with more "holes" than premium ammo. PERIOD. As has been said several times in this thread the softer shot will deform when going down the bbl, and when they hit the air, they are no longer spherical, and will begin to disburse and create flyers, thus widening the pattern and creating more open spots.

All the "I've been using X for years and never had any problems" statements are totally un scientific and meaningless. Every shooter is different as is his gun and choke choice. Only under controled conditions can valid comparisons be made- same gun/choke shooting at a fixed target with different loads, and different distances, and comparing group density/consistency, etc.

I've actuall seen some Magnum loads (more shot at slower fps) actually have the wad shoot through the middle of the pattern creating a huge gaping hole right in the middle of the pattern. There are so many variables that it's like reloading for rifles or pistols. Different combinations give different results.

The best thing here is that interest and curiosity in this subject has been stirred up, and hopefully more of us will use the info we've learned to improve our own particular situation. That's what I love about this board. I always learn a ton of new info.

By the way don't forget your shipping charges on all of those out of town ammo suppliers.

THE "THANKFUL" JAMMER


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

Like any other hunting, it's all about shot placement. If your putting the pellets where they're supposed to be, the bird will fall. 

The cheap promo loads do have the softer shot as opposed to the high dollar STS or AA loads with higher antimony shot, but I'ver never seen a dove tell the difference.

I've actually cut open some Rem and Win promotional loads and patterned them with various chokes in my dove gun. There was not a big enough difference for me to use my premium hand loads vs the cheapies once I found the choke/load combo. My 20 ga 1100 likes an IC choke at 40 yards. 

IMHO If you want the very best dove load, buy the Win AA Super Sport target loads. You get magnum (hard shot), lots-o-speed, and plenty of pellets for $7.57/box.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

CHARLIE said:


> elpistelero45
> 
> Well I always thought the patterns (diameter) WERE ABOUT THE SAME EXCEPT MORE bb's in the bigger Guage.
> 
> Charlie


 That's a matter of choke, not gauge: a choke is rated on what percentage of the full load are in a certain diameter circle at a certain yardage: thus a modified 20 gauge may put the same amount of pellets in that same circle as a IC 12 gauge... You can also get light 12 gauge with the same amount of pellets as a standard 20 gauge loads: there's a lot of variables there that aren't just covered with "20 vs. 12"... I guess on a true technically cylinder choke, the 12 gauge would have a bigger pattern, but it'd probably be limited to the size of the bore. therefore, diddly-squat..


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## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

High brass 20 ga will out shoot cheap 12 ga loads. I do agree that if you are a poor shot you might not see a difference, but even a beginner should do better. Yes I have shot thousands of birds in Argentina, fun stuff, and yes you can get good with there cheap stuff. But high brass one oz loads out of a 20 ga. will out shoot cheap 12 ga. shells day in and day out.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Lezz Go said:


> It's not the arrow, it's the indian.
> 
> Like any other hunting, it's all about shot placement. If your putting the pellets where they're supposed to be, the bird will fall.
> 
> ...


 Now that you mention it, the softer shot may actually hold an advantage when it actually hits the bird: the softer shot will deform more readily and thus could deliver more of it's kinetic energy to the bird: a pellet that's too hard, retains it's relatively aerodynamic (and hydrodynamic) shape, and thus penetrates all the way through the bird, will deliver less of that energy to the bird. Same effect as a FMJ bullet... It's probably on the order of splitting hairs, but the physics hold...


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

wampuscat said:


> High brass 20 ga will out shoot cheap 12 ga loads. I do agree that if you are a poor shot you might not see a difference, but even a beginner should do better. Yes I have shot thousands of birds in Argentina, fun stuff, and yes you can get good with there cheap stuff. But high brass one oz loads out of a 20 ga. will out shoot cheap 12 ga. shells day in and day out.


Which is a set of statements so fraught with unqualified generalizations, despite being awash in critical unnamed variables, as to be utterly ridiculous. Sorry, height of your brass doesn't mean jack...


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## essayons75 (May 15, 2006)

Lezz Go said:


> It's not the arrow, it's the indian.
> 
> Like any other hunting, it's all about shot placement. If your putting the pellets where they're supposed to be, the bird will fall.
> 
> ...


I agree with him, I've seen him shoot, my head hurts from this thread, good night.


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## Lone-Star (Dec 19, 2009)

The question should not be is there a difference, but rather "Does the difference matter?"

For your average dove hunter I dont think it does. If youre good youre gonna hit em anyways and if youre bad youre still gonna miss.

Most people the problem is putting the shot in the right spot, not the quality of the pattern or killing power and high brass aint gonna help you there.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Look Mom, I set off a ballistic pizzin match !!!!

Thanks for the input guys. I'm either going to A) continue my past shell buying habits B) buy a more premium load in hopes of killing more birds .... or C) quit the game and invest all my bird hunting dollars in Crown Royal and good cigars.

You guys are funny and very cool.


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## Backlash Billy (Nov 22, 2009)

Winchester AA X2!
Not much more money, reaches out and spanks those high flying whitewings.


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## kim e cooper (Feb 18, 2006)

It's not the gun or the shot it's the person holding it ...


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Dwilliams35

You are correct but I was speaking of everything being equal, (choke) say a modified 20 ga vs a modified 12 the size of the pattern will be close to the same. With the shells being maximum loads the 12 advantage would be a denser pattern. They dont shoot any harder just more pellets therefore better chance of killing.
Aint this thread a hoot ?

Charlie


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## Rine_Everett (Jun 3, 2004)

If you don't pattern your gun, you look like you have an ID 10 T error. Pattern your dern guns. Pattern your guns. Pattern you guns. There I said it 3 times. Do you get it now? The last time I patterned a Browning Gold 20 ga:
All were 3 shots at 20 yards and IC choke on 30x30 paper.
Winchester super X 7.5 (7/8oz) $3.99
Estate 7.5 (1oz) $6.99
Remington sure shot #6 (1oz) $6.99
Remington sure shot #7.5 (1oz) $6.99

Winchester super X: each pattern had 2 or 3 areas that could be covered by two hands and not touch a hole from the shot. pellet count on 30x30 paper was in the 60's. If there was enough money involved, I would let someone shoot at me with this load from 40 yards with this gun, i dont think you will hit me with any of the shot much less a dove]

Estate 7.5: Good load even spread but all 3 targets had no shot on the bottom half of target.

Remington 6 heavy dove: out of 3 targets, you could not find a spot that would accomodate a baseball without touching at least 2 shot holes.

Remington 7.5 heavy dove: each of 3 targets had random holes as large as a mans hand where there was no shot.

Results: I will use Remington Sure Shot Heavy dove #6 and will bet that my kill% is close to 30-40%.

BTW: I have a Benelli Nova 12ga that loves the winchester super speed #8 and thats what i buy for it. Find what shoots best in you gun.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

There you go. There's a post that has some credibility, not some obscure "I've been using xyz for 20 years and I slay em" kind of statement. Someone who actually took the time and initiative to go out and check it out on his gun. That's valid info, and it appears it was time well spent. Regardless of how good the guy shooting that gun is, he WILL GET MORE HITS using the ammo that works best in that gun- regardless of how great a shot he is.

The funny thing is that someone else with a different gun, might get totally different results with those same loads. So just because load xyz shoots great in your buddy's gun, doesn't mean it will work in yours.

Nice job there. I enjoyed your post.

THE JAMMER



Rine_Everett said:


> If you don't pattern your gun, you look like you have an ID 10 T error. Pattern your dern guns. Pattern your guns. Pattern you guns. There I said it 3 times. Do you get it now? The last time I patterned a Browning Gold 20 ga:
> All were 3 shots at 20 yards and IC choke on 30x30 paper.
> Winchester super X 7.5 (7/8oz) $3.99
> Estate 7.5 (1oz) $6.99
> ...


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## sea sick (Feb 9, 2006)

Has anyone here ever used the Fiocchi or Rio brand bird loads. Any reviews or input on them. I see them in some of the stores.


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## wampuscat (Jun 30, 2009)

dwilliams35 said:


> Which is a set of statements so fraught with unqualified generalizations, despite being awash in critical unnamed variables, as to be utterly ridiculous. Sorry, height of your brass doesn't mean jack...


Brass does not matter it is what is in em. Dove coming in to a water hole or trying to land in your decoys in a sunflower field, probably doesn't matter. Pass shooting a different story. Close bobwhite behind dogs probably doesn't matter. Blue quail hunted on foot no dogs does matter.
Especially if you go to 6's or 4's, and yes have used 4's for blue quail. With bigger bb's the difference between 7/8's of an oz and a full oz increases. The best way to see through the BS is to take a box of high brass 20 ga out with a box of cheap 12 ga and shoot em at actual birds, you will find that high brass 20 ga. will outshoot cheap 12 ga shells day in and day out, all BS aside.
Stumpgrinder had a legitament question, just trying to answer it with out a bunch of bs, I would not spend an extra dime on a box of shells unless it made a difference.


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## rusty2009 (Mar 5, 2010)

Lone-Star said:


> The question should not be is there a difference, but rather "Does the difference matter?"
> 
> For your average dove hunter I dont think it does. If youre good youre gonna hit em anyways and if youre bad youre still gonna miss.
> 
> Most people the problem is putting the shot in the right spot, not the quality of the pattern or killing power and high brass aint gonna help you there.


 X2 If you practice you will hit the birds


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## jig (Aug 2, 2005)

I shoot the heavy dove loads. They are inexpensive, but not a cheap as the winchesters. I shoot 20ga, and want 1oz of shot. The very cheapest only have 7/8oz. I used to shoot the cheapest, with the same thoughts as others. Someone pointed out the 7/8 vs 1 ounce difference. I switched and it did make a difference. I think so long as you have 1oz you are fine for dove without the high brass.


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## jeffscout (Jun 22, 2004)

It must be by God's grace and maybe some blind luck that I can knock these little birds down with only 3/4 ounces in a 28 gauge! My shoulder would hurt if I had to shoot a 12 ga all day long with 1 1/4 ounce loads! I love shooting the lil' ol' 28...especially when people call it a pea shooter!


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Just remember that those "heavy loads" (1 0z 20 ga) are going slower. Yes more pellets, but how are they patterning???? Maybe great, maybe not. Do you know in your gun? There's a reason why a lot of 12 ga sporting clays guys shoot 1 oz loads, and it's not JUST to reduce recoil. They often times pattern better, and they get more "kills."

THE JAMMER


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## El Capitan de No Fish (Sep 20, 2007)

Anything you can get for around $5 a box will do the job just fine. Remington, Winchester, Federal...it doesn't matter. There's no point in getting technical when it comes to shooting dove.
I would think about what choke you're using though. I would say use Improved Cylinder for dove, quail or any other small bird. However if most of your shots are 50+ yards you might switch to Modified.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Rine Everett has a point and a good one. I do have a problem that when he shoots 6's he has a denser pattern than with 7 1/2 or 8's. I shoot 8's in order to get more bb's out there in my pattern. I do better with 8's than 7 1/2's in my 20 Ga. Shooting 
patterns at 20 yards is kinda close. We always did it at 40 yards for duck loads and I would think 30 yards for dove would be OK. I always shoot modified choke for dove.

Charlie


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## jig (Aug 2, 2005)

THE JAMMER said:


> Just remember that those "heavy loads" (1 0z 20 ga) are going slower. Yes more pellets, but how are they patterning???? Maybe great, maybe not. Do you know in your gun? There's a reason why a lot of 12 ga sporting clays guys shoot 1 oz loads, and it's not JUST to reduce recoil. They often times pattern better, and they get more "kills."
> 
> THE JAMMER


Sure I have. I am not worried about slower, 'cause I shoot okay.







Seriously, slower means (usually) less deformity and less flyers. So better pattern.

I hunted with 12ga since I was little. I always thought it stupid to hunt with anything less. More lead in the air.... Then I figured out all that matters is drams of powder and ounces of shot. And a 20ga with same of each will pattern better (IMO) than same out of a 12ga. I have read lots of theories why (such as longer shot column in 20 vs 12), but I know its true at least in my experience.

All you high brass dove/skeet lovers, look at the drams. If you are paying more for high brass and it doesn't have more powder, then you are just paying for brass. And the brass doesn't bring down the birds, no matter how good you are.


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## Rine_Everett (Jun 3, 2004)

CHARLIE said:


> Rine Everett has a point and a good one. I do have a problem that when he shoots 6's he has a denser pattern than with 7 1/2 or 8's. I shoot 8's in order to get more bb's out there in my pattern. I do better with 8's than 7 1/2's in my 20 Ga. Shooting
> patterns at 20 yards is kinda close. We always did it at 40 yards for duck loads and I would think 30 yards for dove would be OK. I always shoot modified choke for dove.
> 
> Charlie


I thought about 30 yards as well, but, last year, I kept track of the distances I walked to retrieve a bird and the average was 17 yards. This was at a farm in Pecos where it is possible even with my shooting to limit out in 15 minutes.

I think the Estate 7.5 had a denser pattern but half the load went high over the paper. I thought about re-doing that load and shooting at the bottom of the target to see what happens...The shot count out of the remington 7.5's was actually higher than the 6's but they seemed to be more clustered. ie several areas had pellets every 1/2 inch while other areas had no shot over 6-8 square inches. I still need to change to a modified choke and see what happens. Later in the season when you cant get them as close, the range might be 30-40 yards and the other loads might work better out of a modified choke. i dunno, but will check and let yall know.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

I'm sure you know this, but it's not drams of powder in your shell, it's the speed generated by that load of smokeless powder that generates a velocity EQUIVALENT TO x number of drams of black powder. Know what you're saying about same shot weight and powder 12 vs 20, and that's certainly possible, but not in all guns and all chokes. I've done it enough with different guns to know.

Now you have also opened up a whole new area of discussion- length of the string. Many people don't realize that just because all the holes are in the paper, they don't all get there at the same time. That shot string has a length, in addition to a width. Actually the shell which has the most consistent load (diameter of the shell vs. the length) is the 28 gauge. It has a tighter overall string, lengthwise, than the other gauges.

There are two theories of thought here. One is that you want the majority of the pellets getting there at the same time (short string) which, if you are on target, increases the density of pellets on the bird once it "flies into the pellets." The other theory is I want a longer shot string, so that if my lead is a bit off, the bird will certainly fly through part of the pattern, because it gets there over a longer period of time, even though it might be significantly less dense.

A very interesting test would be to have a moving target, say 30 mph, which is say 30" tall but 5-6 ft wide. Shoot at it, and see how oblong (left to right) the pattern is. Vary that with stopping your gun upon your shot, which most people do, vs. continuing through with a full follow through, to see the effect of pellet disbursion.

Also I'll challenge "slower means (usually) less deformity and less flyers." Not necessarily true with good quality magnum shot.

THE JAMMER

and


jig said:


> Sure I have. I am not worried about slower, 'cause I shoot okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

shoot the 1 1/8 12 ga. 3 1/4 dram heavy game load 

or the 1 oz 20 ga. heavy game

the $3.99 lite loads are fast , but you sure get a lot of cripple downs later in the season

high brass is old school and overkill/heavy field load, not needed for dove, if it is, they are prob too far away for consistent kills.

stick w # 7 1/2 shot all thru the season


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## Blue_Wave028 (Jul 23, 2008)

sea sick said:


> Has anyone here ever used the Fiocchi or Rio brand bird loads. Any reviews or input on them. I see them in some of the stores.


I have shot the Rio's when I last shot at HOIST. They were a pretty good load the best I could tell. Clean breaks both close and far away.

I have ran all kinds of different loads out of my gun. The worst pattern I ever saw was the Winchester Super-x 1 oz. loads from Wally world. Surprisingly one of the better patterns was from the Winchester Expert Steel # 6's.


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

Fiocchi or Rio or estate........ i used to sell all 3 in the heavy game

all are good loads


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

ME TOO, IN 7.5's... Work well on white wings as well...Walker


Lezz Go said:


> It's not the arrow, it's the indian.
> 
> Like any other hunting, it's all about shot placement. If your putting the pellets where they're supposed to be, the bird will fall.
> 
> ...


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## 3chucks (Feb 5, 2010)

just shoot enough to be able to hit what your shooting at. do pattern guns though you might be surprised. used to reload aahulls with a #32 bushing and blue dot powder behind 1and a quarter 7.5 for about 1275fps. kills doves dead even at about 40 yards with modifed choke. tried improved cylinder but kept going back to modified. just had better pattern. shoot at doves flying across pond and you will see long shotstring. good hunting


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## deke (Oct 5, 2004)

I found that I have less cripples with 7 1/2's over the 8's. My Beretta loves the Remington Heavy Dove loads, patterns them like they were made for each other.
My 20 auto hates the Remingtons but loves the Winchesters.

The Winchester cheapo shells use to have cardboard wads and a paper thin shot cup. They were like shooting confetti out of your gun with all the unburned powder flying everywhere. I refused to shoot them for years. But they have changed them now and even though they look and feel cheap they shoot well out of my 20ga, and that is all I hunt with.


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## jimk (May 28, 2004)

I don't think I shoot as much as you guys do...but I have no problem with low brass #8...in an old Browning humpback with modified choke. They gotta be in range, though.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I shoot the same load for dove as I do for sporting clays...Winchester AA hand loads with 7.5 shot but I use magnum shot. 

When I get low on hulls I buy more AA shells lol.

TH


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## HillCountry Hunter (Apr 9, 2009)

_"A very interesting test would be to have a moving target, say 30 mph, which is say 30" tall but 5-6 ft wide. Shoot at it, and see how oblong (left to right) the pattern is. Vary that with stopping your gun upon your shot, which most people do, vs. continuing through with a full follow through, to see the effect of pellet disbursion."_

Bob Brister did this, Read his book, "Shotgunning, The Art and the Science", he had his wife drive a station wagon with the paper and stand in the back and he would shoot at it and record all the shot patterns. A very interesting book and gentleman. I had the pleasure of meeting and shooting with him on occasion.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Ya know the more I think about it I shoot most anything I can find at dove. I perfer nr 8 heavy dove in my 20 Ga but at dove who cares I would shoot anything I can find. Now for geese I try and find the best. So far it has been remington BBB's

Charlie


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

Anybody used the Fiocchi Golden Pheasant for dove and if so how did they do? These are the ones I'm considering: 20 Gauge, 2 3/4", 1 oz, 1245 fps, #7 1/2 Nickel-Plated Lead Shot? I found a pretty good deal on them and thinking about giving them a shot?


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## Rine_Everett (Jun 3, 2004)

TXDRAKE said:


> Anybody used the Fiocchi Golden Pheasant for dove and if so how did they do? These are the ones I'm considering: 20 Gauge, 2 3/4", 1 oz, 1245 fps, #7 1/2 Nickel-Plated Lead Shot? I found a pretty good deal on them and thinking about giving them a shot?


Sorry, I picked up a box from Cabela's for 6.99 but I havn't shot it yet either...


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## grand poobah (Nov 6, 2007)

*#6 HEAVY DOVE LOAD*

After reading different opions on this post I bought #6 remington heavy dove load for opening day instead of 7 1/2 of the same brand. I shoot a Charles Daley(Lefty) version. I shot my limit by 7:30 wednesday morning & never shot more than twice. Every bird was dead & none sailed off. This was just one hunt but was very impressed. I didn't have a chance to pattern the shot but was obviously very effective.
Grand Poobah


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