# "Trophy" Hunters



## WTN (May 21, 2004)

What do you guys think of the "trophy" hunters that shop all the big name ranches every year, put their bucks on layaway, wait for season to open, shoot a top end buck (or two, or three), enter all the contests and put their stories in the regional mags? They go on and on about having to hunt "hard" for a couple of days.

Has a big deer now become merely a status symbol?

Maybe I'm just jealous but I much prefer to hear about the average Joe that takes a nice buck then to see these starched-polo cowboys with their $10-20K prizes.


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

As a ex Taxidermist I used to see this ALL THE TIME. One thing I did learn at a yng age a trophy IS what comes in the door, be it a spike or a B&C buck. WW


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

And that is why a guy on another website... had an idea to start TCHA..... the Texas Cull Hunters Association.
















The way I look at it, if someone has the big $$ to do it, then go for it. If that is the way they get the pleasure of doing it then more power to them. It is their right and we do not have the right to take it away from them either.

FYI, I think those guys put alot of hard work and hunts in to get the lowfence leader of Los Cazadores. Some of them are on this website I believe. It is not all that easy as it is cracked up to be for those of us that have not experienced the ranch. Yes, some of them could be major crappy hunts to us but I am sure alot of them require some skill and we just think opposite.


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## cj9271 (Aug 24, 2004)

I too agree with you. We all want to take that monster buck, but not a can hunt. What is there to be proud about when riding around in a truck and being told O.K. #3 there is your deer, shoot now or #4 is going to get to shoot him. I am not bagging on those guys and gals that hunt like that, I just prefer to hunt "hard" all year long to get the chance of possibly seeing a real trophy. As I tell the people on my lease, any harvest of a whitetail is a true trophy in my book. I want to have a good story to tell when somebody asks me about the deer on my wall. Now, to bag on us people that use feeders, my relatives up north make fun of how we hunt in Texas because of the fact that we use feeders. It all boils down to "different strokes for different folks". Good luck to all. The pic I have included says what it is all about. Get a kid hunting.


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## Jfreeman (Nov 3, 2004)

As stated ''different stroked for different folks''. I enjoy reading about huge deer shot on heavily managed ranches, and I hunt a ranch with some of the deer you speak of. I also enjoy spending time around the campfire with my son and friends at the lease, hunting hard all year long waiting on that bruiser to make a mistake.


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## Bucksnort (Jun 29, 2004)

Put it this away...if I could afford it I'd buy a deer. I would love to go on a package hunt where they told me..."nah,,,don't shoot that one...he is only a 150,,,we got a whole lot bigger than that".


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## elkhunter49 (Jun 7, 2004)

My idea of a fair chase hunt has alway's been a week in the
mountians out west on public land. With that being said I've
had some of my most memorable hunt's just these last few years
with my son in a blind overlooking a field or feeder. I will admit that
if I had the money I'd love to go on a private land guided Elk hunt.
Until my kids are out of collage it will remain a dream. Oh well we all
have our priorities don't we. I say to each his or her own. Later Baker


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## Charles Helm (Oct 22, 2004)

I think this echoes my thoughts:



InfamousJ said:


> The way I look at it, if someone has the big $$ to do it, then go for it. If that is the way they get the pleasure of doing it then more power to them. It is their right and we do not have the right to take it away from them either.


Pesonally, I prefer to hunt large, low-fenced ranches that have some decent management in place but native deer only, no AI or imported deer. I have no issues with those who hunt another way so long as they stay safe and obey the law. I hate to see hunters get too divided with the threats we face in the future of hunting.

Good hunting.


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## ELF62 (Dec 24, 2004)

I would love to be able to afford a lease with deer that I could spend the off season with my kids working to put up blinds, feeders, and plinking with .22's. I would love to be able to say to my kids on my last day of a particular shift "hey throw some clothes in a bag and let's head to the lease and spend some time". I would love to be able to sit around the campfire with friends and family and just laugh and have a good time. To do this though I would have to spend all my days off working overtime to be able to afford a decent lease in this state and would not have the free time to enjoy it. Unfortunately hunting in Texas has become an industry. Gone are the days of the pleasurable family leases. Sure do miss those days. The hunting industry of Texas has came to the point that friends will stabbed their friends in the back to take a lease from them for more money. Where landowners will not offer a long term lease with hopes of more money down the road. Where the pursuit of horns has made it almost impossible for an average man to be able to afford to introduce their kids to deer hunting. At the rate things are going a father and child sitting in a stand on their lease will be only a memory. Sorry for the rant.


Bucksnort said:


> Put it this away...if I could afford it I'd buy a deer. I would love to go on a package hunt where they told me..."nah,,,don't shoot that one...he is only a 150,,,we got a whole lot bigger than that".


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## LIONESS-270 (May 19, 2005)

Ditto to all the above....A trophy is what you concieve it to be without labels


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## expressfish (Jun 8, 2004)

what elk hunter said<<<< thats a real hunt, take a week on public land, horseback or hike and take your game. what would be more awesome is a stream next to your camp full of fish. but it'll probably never happen, thats why theres OLN--right ? I personally wouldnt spend that kind of money on a set of horns even if i had the money, but everyone has different opinions and as said earlier diff strokes-diff folks


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I've always looked at it this way. 

I hunt what I can afford to hunt. If I could afford to take 2 trophy bucks off of say the Retamosa Ranch I would. If I could afford to hunt muleys on a private ranch, I would. If someone told me that for $15K I could hunt a whitetail that would go 200 BC, and I could afford it I would. But I can't so I'm happy with my smaller whitetail on my land and a trip every decade or so to New Mexico for muleys.

I certainly don't look down at those who can afford to do what I can't. More power to them that they have the money and it's theirs to spend. Maybe they inherited it, maybe they have uranium or oil and gas production on their property or maybe they earned it through hard work; it doesn't matter to me as it's their money to spend as they want. 

Maybe if I would have studied a little harder, moved to a major city and did something else for a living I could actually squeeze the trigger on a $10K deer instead of just admiring them through my scope. But fate didn't deal me that hand so I play what I was dealt and I'm happy.

TH


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## Shaky (May 21, 2004)

This has been hashed and rehashed on this board many many times, but looks like here we go again!

My take on the super high priced managed ranches are they arent for me. Maybe its just jealousy on my part as I dont forsee me ever having the funds or the opportunity to do it that way.

I do know this, I get excited when I see (or try to shoot) a lowly spike. Thats why I hunt, if I ever lose that feeling, Ill probably hang it up. I never know what, if anything will show up on my place. Have I ever shot a big buck? Yes, big to me, small and puny to others but thats alright I hunt for myself and my family. I still sit on stand hoping that big bruiser will just happen to walk by but will take whatever is legal at the time. Ill let a younger deer walk sometimes, or Ill pop it if I can quit shaking long enough to fill my freezer. Just depends on the situation. I dont have a lot of deer on my place and I can hunt a week or better without even seeing one. But if I happen to get a spike or a doe, then it all came together and I got venison in the freezer. My son shot his first buck a scrawny little 6pt several years ago and we were both ecstatic. Just about every year since he can go with me and tag out on a buck Ive never seen while I wont see jack. But thats hunting. We take what comes out and enjoy the time spent out in the woods doing what we enjoy. My youngest daughter is the same way, shes all into hardcore hunting and is looking forward to what Santa may be bringing her this year, Camo outfit, Boots, Jacket and she doesnt know it yet, but just maybe her own rifle if the funds are right. Ill keep her excited and interested in hunting as long as I can and just maybe, get lucky and keep her interested in hunting and the outdoors for life.
If I can do this without her having to shoot a Cull buck off of some highpriced management ranch, then I can guarantee she'll have the passion for life. You earn what you hunt hard for, not pay for.


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## copperhead (Mar 15, 2005)

Elf62 pretty much hit the nail on the head. There was a day when 18 of us would go to our family lease to hunt and enjoy the company. Now, I don't think my son will be able to have the memories that I have had around the campfire with all my uncles and cousins. I hunt out west and hopefully we'll be able to share some good times there. Because of the almighty dollar, my son will never be able to share a deer lease with his granddad the way I did and to hear all those stories of his past hunting trips, of his failures and triumphs. Seems like deer leases have split more friends up than women. But, oh well, the times, they are a-changin.


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## RubenZamora (Oct 19, 2005)

I'm against those trophy hunters because to them its not about nature, the wildlife, etc. I cant explain it. Those are the hunters who rarely have a deep respect for the sport. Its more about the money and bragging to their corprate budies. I doubt they even know what gun they have and its potential, they just go buy something based on price tag.

I'm also against high fence hunting most of the time.

A trophy to me is working all season long to get your deer, keeping track of their movements, putting corn out all the time and just trying and trying.

This is my first trophy:










No high fence, 100 acres and 3 years of hunting on my ranch to get a deer like this. that is hard work and $$ i had to do and I was so happy with the results.

If I every came into money I'd buy a low fenced ranch and as much acreage as I could. I guess its cuz I have more old school beliefs.

I mean hunting in say 900 acress of high fence is a no brainer you'll get at least a buck by end of season. whats the fun in that.

EDIT: I should add that I mean HIGH FENCED all around, not partially.


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## ELF62 (Dec 24, 2004)

Nice deer Ruben! Congrats


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## Fish-a-mon (May 21, 2004)

Nice Hill Country buck.. Folks in my book Rubin's is a trophy. Low fence 128. Nice all natural. And only 8 points. Nice buck again.


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## Cool Arrow (Oct 31, 2005)

Funny, I saw an ad for Adami Ranch in Freer where the guy is selling trophy hunts/management hunts etc. Heck the guys' ranch is only 300 acres high fenced! I asked him once if he has the deer tied to a tree. The guy has a flier outside The Liberty Cafe in freer. He says hes a sceintific deer breeder with 80 deer penned in this 300 acres. Pathetic


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## El Cazador (Mar 4, 2005)

RubenZamora said:


> I'm against those trophy hunters because to them its not about nature, the wildlife, etc. I cant explain it. Those are the hunters who rarely have a deep respect for the sport. Its more about the money and bragging to their corprate budies. I doubt they even know what gun they have and its potential, they just go buy something based on price tag.
> 
> I guess I would be considered a trophy hunter because I care more about the antlers that a deer carries than the meat I will be getting from it. But I guarantee you that I have passed on more bucks in a single weekend of hunting than a lot of meat hunters will see in a lifetime of hunting.
> 
> ...


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

ELF62 said:


> I would love to be able to afford a lease with deer that I could spend the off season with my kids working to put up blinds, feeders, and plinking with .22's. I would love to be able to say to my kids on my last day of a particular shift "hey throw some clothes in a bag and let's head to the lease and spend some time". I would love to be able to sit around the campfire with friends and family and just laugh and have a good time. To do this though I would have to spend all my days off working overtime to be able to afford a decent lease in this state and would not have the free time to enjoy it. Unfortunately hunting in Texas has become an industry. Gone are the days of the pleasurable family leases. Sure do miss those days. The hunting industry of Texas has came to the point that friends will stabbed their friends in the back to take a lease from them for more money. Where landowners will not offer a long term lease with hopes of more money down the road. Where the pursuit of horns has made it almost impossible for an average man to be able to afford to introduce their kids to deer hunting. At the rate things are going a father and child sitting in a stand on their lease will be only a memory. Sorry for the rant.





copperhead said:


> Elf62 pretty much hit the nail on the head. There was a day when 18 of us would go to our family lease to hunt and enjoy the company. Now, I don't think my son will be able to have the memories that I have had around the campfire with all my uncles and cousins. I hunt out west and hopefully we'll be able to share some good times there. Because of the almighty dollar, my son will never be able to share a deer lease with his granddad the way I did and to hear all those stories of his past hunting trips, of his failures and triumphs. Seems like deer leases have split more friends up than women. But, oh well, the times, they are a-changin.


Well, if you look around, those things are still available. $500?? Is that to much. If so, then I know you will not find a place. If hunting is worth as much to you as you say it is; to enjoy the campfires and bring your kids up in it; then you will find a way to make it happen the way you want it. Below is an example that was on a FREE leasing website earlier in the year not probably more than 1 - 1 1/2 hr drive from Houston.

*Date: *
*14 Sep 2005*
*Comments*
*I have 223 acres for lease in fayette county.It is a one buck county.I am asking 500 a gun for it Two gun maximum.There are plenty of deer,hogs,duck,.Please Call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx.Leave a message.*


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## El Cazador (Mar 4, 2005)

By the way Ruben, that's a nice deer. Congrats!


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## Whitecrow (May 26, 2004)

*It's a sad state of affairs....*

It's sad when looking at a big buck the first question out of most people's mouths is "Wonder how much that cost?" Shooting deer anymore is about the money. I can take my 10yr old and a box of cash and get a 150" deer....no problem. It's almost comical to watch some of these guys walk around all bowed up about shooting a big deer, when in reality my kid could do the same. 
You wanna know what else bugs me? Probably not, but here goes anyway. When somebody posts a pic of their deer and they get reponses like "Dang, one more year and he woulda been a good 'un" , or "Not bad for a cull". 
I sometimes wonder why some of these guys don't just buy a buck and feed him out in the back yard til he's "big enough". Then they could measure him on the hoof and wouldn't be "disappointed" by shooting him before he's ready.


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## Solid Action (May 21, 2004)

First of all, if people wish to hunt in that manner, more power to them and I'm glad they can afford it, because I sure can't. I wouldn't get much gratification from selecting the deer I was going to kill off of a video and negotiating a price. I've guided those hunts before and the majority of the hunters weren't even "thrilled" with the deer they just shot, because they expected it and knew what they were going to kill. 

These large profits for the deer breeders will be decreasing over the next few years b/c the market will be so saturated. There are over 40 deer pens in Live Oak County alone. Instead of having ten 150 class bucks for sale in an area, there will be twenty 150 class deer for sale. Supply and demand, simple economics.

I have always been an avid deer hunter, but fishing ranks right up there with it now. You can pay all of the money in the world hiring "trophy trout" guides, but that doesn't mean you are going to catch a 30" trout. You still have to do the work.


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## TxBlue (Mar 18, 2005)

Ruben

I couldn't agree more. I believe a true hunting trophy can only be taken on a low fenced ranch. I also think a trophy should be at least somewhat looked at by its region. A buck that is a true trophy in Mason County, may not even get a second look in Starr. Now don't get me wrong I am a big fan of deer management, I just think it needs to be done behind a low fence.

A high fenced ranch is a deer farm. The "trophies" that come off of them are by very little means a show of the hunter's skill, but a show of the ranch manager's skill. If the purpose of killing a huge genetically engineered buck is to show just how big of a deer you can grow in a closed closely monitored system, great. By why shoot them. Why not just have a deer division at the local County fair Stock show. It is the same thing isn't it.

Not to mention the fact that high fencing a ranch is making claim to the deer that are on the ranch as private property. They are not, the are public property. But that is a whole other discussion.

The money that is being put into deer hunting these days is ridiculous, and has taken a lot away form the pureness of the sport.

As always there are exceptions to every rule and situation, but that is just my opinion.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

TxBlue said:


> A high fenced ranch is a deer farm. The "trophies" that come off of them are by very little means a show of the hunter's skill, but a show of the ranch manager's skill. If the purpose of killing a huge genetically engineered buck is to show just how big of a deer you can grow in a closed closely monitored system, great. By why shoot them. Why not just have a deer division at the local County fair Stock show. It is the same thing isn't it.










no comment.


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## Whitecrow (May 26, 2004)

*Ding, Ding, Ding..........*



TxBlue said:


> A high fenced ranch is a deer farm. The "trophies" that come off of them are by very little means a show of the hunter's skill, but a show of the ranch manager's skill. If the purpose of killing a huge genetically engineered buck is to show just how big of a deer you can grow in a closed closely monitored system, great. By why shoot them. Why not just have a deer division at the local County fair Stock show. It is the same thing isn't it.


We have a winner. :cheers:


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## ELF62 (Dec 24, 2004)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TxBlue again.

I owe you one.



TxBlue said:


> Ruben
> 
> I couldn't agree more. I believe a true hunting trophy can only be taken on a low fenced ranch. I also think a trophy should be at least somewhat looked at by its region. A buck that is a true trophy in Mason County, may not even get a second look in Starr. Now don't get me wrong I am a big fan of deer management, I just think it needs to be done behind a low fence.
> 
> ...


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## RubenZamora (Oct 19, 2005)

Reminds me of ROCKY. YOu have the engineered russian fighter and the all natural american Rocky.


BTW, my deer was shot here in Hidalgo County, not Hill country. just to clear it up.


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## ELF62 (Dec 24, 2004)

Doesn't change a thing Ruben....Very nice deer!!


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

Nice buck Ruben. A true trophy.

Other than that, I can't type fast enough to get in this discussion. And I have to many opinions to express. I can see both sides of the argument. I will say this, I am not a fan of genetically engineered breeder bucks. 

Maybe another day!!


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## copperhead (Mar 15, 2005)

It just gets very frustrating when you know how it was and to see what it has gone to.


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## El Cazador (Mar 4, 2005)

Now, I don't hunt a high fenced ranch, and personally I don't believe in high fencing but... you cannot convince me that hunting inside of a high fenced - 5,000 to 10,000 acre property (un-guided) would be like shooting fish in a barrel.


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## ROOSTER REDCHASER (Feb 25, 2005)

LOL


This whole thread is .........well, different strokes for different folks. Our place is low fenced ON PURPOSE! By the pics I have been posting throughout the season, you can see how management and feeding has worked!
Our hunters are discreminate (sp?). But they hunt the low fence because of the chance for a B&C deer. NONE of our hunters WANT to hunt a high fence because of the reasons stated in the above post.
But, because these types of deer are in high demand AND large low fenced ranches in S.Texas are a dying breed............these deer are expensive....and reasonably so.
If the supply is low....and the demand is high............then go for it I say!

I havn't actually killed a whitetail deer in over 15 years myself. I like to film them, photo them..........and rattle 'em up! That's just me.

Bill


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## tiedown (Oct 12, 2005)

I just think it is sad, on how expensive deer hunting has gotten and how cut throat it is. It seems its all about the money. We are lucky with the place we have in Eden, we have had it for 4 years and have taken very good care of it. We did have some hunters down the road try to offer our rancher $1000 more per gun to get our lease. His words were, I am happy with the guys, and they have taken good care of the ranch and No thank you. 

I have also seen friends and have lost friends due to deer hunting. It seems people forget who they are and just get plain stupid about things. I have even seen it split up families. 

Deer hunting is suppose to be fun and fun for everyone no matter what you do, or how much you spend. For some people, a weekend hunt is all they have time for and that is fine.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

If I had an endless supply of money I wouldn't buy a deer/deer hunt. I also wouldn't buy a BMW, Hummer, Bentley or any such vehicle. I also wouldn't buy/live in some monster home...all that type stuff means little to me.



If given a choice between going with J and be limited to taking nothing less than a 180 BC buck or going to a buddies 100 acre property and shoot what ever floats my boat.....I'm going to the 100 acres.



I've killed some nice bucks "trophy hunting" on normal hunting leases and yes I passed plenty of bucks to get them. Many were the best bucks ever taken on the lease or they were the best deer killed that year. But it's still more fun to go on a doe hunt knowing that any second you might get a shot. I have moved on to a different level of hunting. I'm more into the excitement of a successful hunt!



I know what you're thinking!



The hunt is not about killing......BULL! If that were true why not sleep in and let your guide go kill it for you? Or sit in the blind till he walks out and let the guide be the trigger man?



I guided many hunters on a family friend's ranch in Del Rio from the late 70's thru to the early 90's and I have seen the "big money hunter". A couple guys who (I didn't know until later) fired the first shot of their life at the deer they killed!



I also feel it has hurt hunting too....not because we all don't agree on hunting issues, but because it gives the anti's ammunition to use against us....paid for big deer.



At the present pace of hunting lease....I'll be out of hunting before I really want to be. It is becoming a rich mans sport.



Thanks for the op to rant!


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## ELF62 (Dec 24, 2004)

El Cazador said:


> Now, I don't hunt a high fenced ranch, and personally I don't believe in high fencing but... you cannot convince me that hunting inside of a high fenced - 5,000 to 10,000 acre property (un-guided) would be like shooting fish in a barrel.


The 5,000 to 10,000 acre high fenced ranches are not the majority of high fence ranches. I am not an expert by any means but high fenced ranches of this size are few and far between. That being said if they trapped native deer inside of these fences no matter what size the ranches are it is wrong in my opionion. If I were to trap a deer in a hog trap and shoot it I would be prosecuted. So what makes it right for somone to trap a free ranging deer in a high fence and then sell it in a packaged hunt. The only differnce is the size of the trap. JMHO


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## Whitecrow (May 26, 2004)

*It's like this.....*



ELF62 said:


> So what makes it right for somone to trap a free ranging deer in a high fence and then sell it in a packaged hunt. The only differnce is the size of the trap. JMHO


The reason it's ok is because several of the folks making the rules are the ones who own the high-fenced ranches, or are very good friends of them that do. Look at a roster of your TP&WD appointees.


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## krbo18 (Dec 13, 2005)

WTN said:


> What do you guys think of the "trophy" hunters that shop all the big name ranches every year, put their bucks on layaway, wait for season to open, shoot a top end buck (or two, or three), enter all the contests and put their stories in the regional mags? They go on and on about having to hunt "hard" for a couple of days.
> 
> Has a big deer now become merely a status symbol?
> 
> Maybe I'm just jealous but I much prefer to hear about the average Joe that takes a nice buck then to see these starched-polo cowboys with their $10-20K prizes.


i totally agree. i wouldnt call it huntn if u can shoot a deer wearing a tuxedo at the same time. then brag about it. i mean there aint nothin wrong with a box blind but not set up from a feeder 3 to 40 yards away shooting at domesticated, protein fed deer. it takes out the challenge that made hunting fun.


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## ELF62 (Dec 24, 2004)

Whitecrow said:


> The reason it's ok is because several of the folks making the rules are the ones who own the high-fenced ranches, or are very good friends of them that do. Look at a roster of your TP&WD appointees.


I would love to see that roster....do you know where to find it?


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## TxBlue (Mar 18, 2005)

Whitecrow said:


> The reason it's ok is because several of the folks making the rules are the ones who own the high-fenced ranches, or are very good friends of them that do. Look at a roster of your TP&WD appointees.


We have a winner!!!


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## TxBlue (Mar 18, 2005)

ELF62 said:


> I would love to see that roster....do you know where to find it?


Here ya go.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/about/commission/commissioners/


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Captn C said:


> If given a choice between going with J and be limited to taking nothing less than a 180 BC buck or going to a buddies 100 acre property and shoot what ever floats my boat.....I'm going to the 100 acres.










Dude, I'll have to let you share a campfire with me sometime and see what it is really like out there. We can only shoot a buck that is mature, 5 years or older as our trophy. Not 180+.  Hell, a 5+ year old could only score 120 but it is mature and considered your trophy if you pull the trigger. My personal choice is to look for a 160+ as I have always wanted one that big or bigger. I'd give my left nut if someone could easily put me on a 160+ out there as I already have alot invested in the lease, a campsite for me and friends, scouting my area, feeders, a blind, driving 5+ hours one way each time I go, etc. It is no cakewalk and is every bit of what I have had on my 20+ years $500 a year place in Refugio that was sold 2 years ago. If it wasn't sold I'd still be there. The only difference is I have a real chance at getting a 160+. I may end up with nothing this year except the memories of the trips and the fun I enjoyed with it, and out alot of money but I'll do it again because that is what I want to accomplish. That's what it is all about.

Edit: let me add one more thing. I doubt very seriously I'll shoot the buck I want out of my blind or near a feeder out there. I'll have to spot one eventually (I hope) and then setup on him in the brush and wait, rattle, etc. to get him. I definitely don't see it like I do in the magazines and on deer videos where they are just there milling about in the sendero eating road corn. This place is pure nature, and unmanaged. It just happens to be in the heart of big buck country with plants that provide 30+% protein naturally and the thickness of brush for deer to mature without being shot out.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I love this quote. I don't remember who sent it to me, but I sure value the wisdom in the meaning.

TH

"We are too small of a group not to support each other. If you hunt, you belong to a fraternity. If a hunting method is legal in another state, but not in your state, if you don't agree with a manner of hunting even though it is legal, then crying foul won't help the bigger picture. If a way of hunting is under attack, your way is under attack, even if you do not agree with or practice this method."


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## copperhead (Mar 15, 2005)

Another thing about high fences that nobody has touched on, and until I read it in the Gatesvill Newspaper, I never would have considered. A rancher in Coryell county had high fenced his place, approx 2000 acres. He was managing it for deer hunting. He brought in a game manager to do a deer count and found that there was a nearly 100% fawn mortality rate, the reason, coyotes were running fawns into the fence and killing them. This is a documented case.


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## ELF62 (Dec 24, 2004)

InfamousJ said:


> Well, if you look around, those things are still available. $500?? Is that to much. If so, then I know you will not find a place. If hunting is worth as much to you as you say it is; to enjoy the campfires and bring your kids up in it; then you will find a way to make it happen the way you want it. Below is an example that was on a FREE leasing website earlier in the year not probably more than 1 - 1 1/2 hr drive from Houston.
> 
> *Date: *
> *14 Sep 2005*
> ...


J I have spent many hours and drove many miles looking at places over the past 3 years. I am not saying they are not there but they are few and far between. What free leasing website was that one on. I thought I had found all the free ones and have even paid for some leasing websites. I would have driven to it and checked it out. I have found on numerous occassions that after speaking with the landowner and setting up a time to view the ranch that when I arrived it had already been leased or "someone" had offered more money while I was on my way. A call would have been helpful, and I'm not saying that all landowners are this way. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places. It is just a frustrating experience sometimes. Yes hunting to me is actually more than I have stated. I am not bashing hunters I am just alarmed at the direction that the hunting "inustry" in this state is headed. It is a shame when someone posts a picture of their kill and the first post is "What did it score?" not congradulations. hwell:


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## RubenZamora (Oct 19, 2005)

The majority of high fence ranches I see that lease are not even PASSED 2k acres. The avg seems to be around 800-900 and imo that is NOT a fair hunt. In terms of wildlife, 800 acres is NOTHING.


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## Fish Aholic (May 13, 2005)

I am a college kid, and I wonder what some of the guys who hunt these high fence ranches do for a living? 

I go for the guys who hunt traditional style. If you hunt high fence ranches thats cool too. I guess the guys who hunt the high fence ranches always know that that big buck is around somewhere. It is not like they are going run away and you will not see them again.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

RubenZamora said:


> The majority of high fence ranches I see that lease are not even PASSED 2k acres. The avg seems to be around 800-900 and imo that is NOT a fair hunt. In terms of wildlife, 800 acres is NOTHING.


Dude, do you realize how big an 800-900 ranch is? My goodness... and if it is in south texas with thick brush you can't even walk through, I bet there's deer on a 500 acre high fence ranch that you would never see hunting your entire life. Do you hunt/view all 800 acres at one time when you go out? Please teach me how to do it.  Come on. Fish in a barrel, huh? LOL And if you have good water and a good feeding program you can support quite a few animals on 800 acres, definitely more than you'd want to shoot in your lifetime.



Fish Aholic said:


> I guess the guys who hunt the high fence ranches always know that that big buck is around somewhere. It is not like they are going run away and you will not see them again.


If you manage it right of course you can make it a trophy place but it does not gurantee you to keep a specific buck on it. There is alot of hard work to maintain a high fence and keep the holes plugged from hogs, coyotes, and anything else that digs. Then you have to run snares in them holes to prevent the yotes and pigs from coming in as pigs and yotes can kill your buck you think is there. On top of that, a deer can jump a high fence if they choose to do so. You need to more than 8 foot with NO holes under the fence anywhere around the perimiter to gurantee it.

TTT


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

For the most part, I agree with J. I've hunted 600 acre high fenced pastures and 2000 acre high fenced pastures, and there ain't no "shooting fish in a barrel" to it. On the 600 acre pasture there were bucks that were seen before the season and not again until late January. Someone was hunting that pasture most every weekend throughout the season. Where did they go for 4 months? Sure there were bucks that were seen all the time. But, that happens on low fence places too.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

The place I guided at in Del Rio had a typical 12pt that was never seen by any one on the ground or in a blind. We had plenty of photos of him from the chopper though....you just couldn't see him from the ground at any time of year....the ranch was 1500 acres and under game fence. He was photoed three years in a row from the air. He was not a really large antlered deer, but he sure had the points lined up.


Any way they can be very hard to see, but with light to no hunting pressure they can be very easy to see. The only thing a game fence really does is make you feel pretty good about the game staying on your land....provided the ranch owners sons don't drive the high rise truck thru the fence...the "wets" don't cut large holes to walk though or ride the fence down low enough they can jump out.


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## tiedown (Oct 12, 2005)

Captn C is right, we kill cull 8's on two ranches, one is high fenced and the other one is not. They both only allow friends and family to hunt the ranches. Both ranches are hard hunting, neither ranch has stands. Last year we hunted the ranch further down south, in October, and it was hard hunting, it was hard to believe it was a game fenced. We hunted for 5 days and only killed two cull 8s. 
We went back right before the rut started in December, and it was still hard hunting. We killed a few more bucks, due to it being a little colder. It is no guarntee, you are going to kill a big buck, you had to hunt, it was not like going to the grocery store and picking out what you wanted. 
BTW both ranches are on the state permit deal. They start hunting with rifles in Oct till Feb, if anyone was wondering why we started in Oct. One ranch is 22,000 acres and the other ranch is 18,000 acres(it is not high fenced).


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## fin_adik (Aug 8, 2005)

*high/low*

Im 24 years young, been hunting deer since I was 5. My family and I have been on countless ranches in south Texas. Probally at least 10-12 different places. Every single one has been a low fenced property. We had one place leased where my Grandfather, Father and Uncle all took "book" deer. None of them entered or cared to have them put in the books. I have seen two deer in my life that I know would make the book, thats it. They are around, doesn't mean you will see them. When game fencing became the craze of the sport, it spread like wildfire from ranch to ranch across south Texas. The idea of raising deer does not appeal to me or make sense. Theyre fenced in!!!!! Deer were once wild, they could cross miles of the region and cross breed. Now we got people importing genetics to sell or be studded out in a 10 acre pen with 40 hot does. There are feedlots around the state from Dalhart to Boca Chica run the same way, only they sell beef! If you want to eat some pen raised animals, join 4H.


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## Solid Action (May 21, 2004)

I feel the same way. I am not against high fencing, I'm against the commercial nature of breeding and selling bucks.


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## DogDoc (Dec 1, 2004)

As has been said, this is a personal decision. My boys, my Dad, my nephew and I discussed some years ago taking the money we all put into the family lease we pay for, pool it, and take turns shooting a trophy buck, one a year.


In our case, we collectively decided the most important thing for us is the time spent together. So we stay on our little lease, sit around our little trailer, fill our little feeders, sit in our little stands, and shoot our little 110 class deer. 

We have no intention of changing. Our family is so much closer because of our shared experiences. Stories we all laugh at, retold so many times to spouses, Moms, and Grandmas at Christmas and Thanksgiving family dinners. Family legends. Memories that my kids will have long after their future wives would have made them fling out the moth-eaten trophy mount their dead Dad or Grandpa shot in 2005.

I have no gripe with hunters who choose to do it different. Just doesn't work for me and my family. Depends on what you are trying to get out of hunting.

Steve


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## RubenZamora (Oct 19, 2005)

tiedown said:


> Captn C is right, we kill cull 8's on two ranches, one is high fenced and the other one is not. They both only allow friends and family to hunt the ranches. Both ranches are hard hunting, neither ranch has stands. Last year we hunted the ranch further down south, in October, and it was hard hunting, it was hard to believe it was a game fenced. We hunted for 5 days and only killed two cull 8s.
> We went back right before the rut started in December, and it was still hard hunting. We killed a few more bucks, due to it being a little colder. It is no guarntee, you are going to kill a big buck, you had to hunt, it was not like going to the grocery store and picking out what you wanted.
> BTW both ranches are on the state permit deal. They start hunting with rifles in Oct till Feb, if anyone was wondering why we started in Oct. One ranch is 22,000 acres and the other ranch is 18,000 acres(it is not high fenced).


thats a prime example of what I'm talking about, 5 days, 2 bucks and then you went back in the rut and killed even more bucks. So lets say you got 5 - 6 bucks the whole season. Thats f'king GREAT!! I would kill to have a lease where my party could get around 5 bucks a season. That was made possible because a game fence.

Like I stated, a game fence is 99.9% guarantee you will get something, and I dont care about big trophies, I'm talkin about just bucks (6pts or bigger).


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## Sace (May 21, 2004)

*Tough decision*

This a very controversial topic....but in my case...I own some land in Del Rio...High Fenced on 3 sides....acreage is just under 2,000 subdivided into 12 lots...mine is 110.....most hunters on this pasture have shot it up pretty good...I struggle to get a buck and doe each year..only criteria I place on myself is mature animals only...spend quite a bit of time and money...feeding and fixing up the place...bottom line.. tough hunting...not much game..few deer, quail, doves, turkeys...bobcat/fox every now and then...no hogs, javalina, or coyotes...I really enjoy nature...just wish I would see more of it...lol...past hunt saw a doe doing peek a boo with a protien block...she couldn't figure that thing out..was hilarious...anyways..been thinking about selling it because I just don't see the amount of wildlife that I would like.....3 hour drive one way...I also spend time on a friends high fence ranch where we see alot of animals...we strictly bow hunt...and as of yet just Axis and Javalina's are the targets...no white tails are shot...waiting on the herd to get a bit bigger...so I kinda see both ends of the spectrum....but seeing the animals every hunt has really got me leaning to the highfenced side....I hate spending a week on the ranch and spending 6 to 7 hours a day in a stand and seeing a doe or two if I'm lucky at times....that gets really frustrating....I could sell the ranch..and use that cash to buy a couple of hunts a year on some ranch and hoop it up on those trips...just rambling I guess...I really can't decide what to do......listening to everyone's opinions makes it a tougher decision...everyone has some good points...


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## TxBlue (Mar 18, 2005)

I will agree that hunting on a large high fenced ranch (3000 acres +) is different from hunting on one of the hundreds of 500 acre high fenced in the state. The shooting "fish" in a barrel analogy is still valid though. It is not as much the size of the ranch, but the level of management. I have been on 5000+ acre ranch where 150+ class bucks would actually follow the feed trucks around. Yep&#8230; that is pretty tough hunting.

Now, I realize that is a pretty extreme example, but unless you are on a very large ranch, if you are under a high fence, you are going to see the same deer over and over. An 800 acre south Texas ranch can support no more than maybe 100 deer, and that is with very good supplemental feeding. A mature whitetail buck needs at least a 25 plus square mile range during the rut. That is cut short by a fence on most ranches. If you are hunting corned roads, you will probably see about 10 deer on a given hunt, and WILL see that big boy that you know is on the ranch with our too much effort. His instincts make him keep moving. It is like hitting a racquet ball real hard in a small court. They bounce around all over the ranch.

Bottom line high fences are bad for deer hunting in Texas. Profitable&#8230;&#8230;Yes. But the limited range and genetic bottlenecks they create, are very bad for the natural deer population.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

RubenZamora said:


> Like I stated, a game fence is 99.9% guarantee you will get something, and I dont care about big trophies, I'm talkin about just bucks (6pts or bigger).


And without even knowing it, you just made the point as to why people high fence and why it is often needed by those who want a better herd other than meat...... So they don't have neighbors screwing up their efforts and shooting whatever floats their boat.  If everyone managed the deer herd in the area to its fullest, then you'd have that opportunity without a high fence.


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## TxBlue (Mar 18, 2005)

InfamousJ said:


> ......you made the point as to why people high fence and why it is often needed by those who want a better herd other than meat...... So they don't have neighbors screwing up their efforts and shooting whatever floats their boat.  If everyone managed the deer herd in the area to its fullest, then you'd have that opportunity without a high fence.


InfamousJ,

You make a very good point, It is a shame that it has come to this. But that is the price you pay when you share a public reasource. It is like going to the park and having someone on the next bench over playing their stereo too loud. You can either convince them to turn it down, or you can move. You cant just put up a sound proof wall around your bench and call it yours. The park is public property, so are the deer......it isn't right to claim them as your own, even if you have the means.....JMO


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

TxBlue said:


> InfamousJ,
> 
> You make a very good point, It is a shame that it has come to this. But that is the price you pay when you share a public reasource. It is like going to the park and having someone on the next bench over playing their stereo too loud. You can either convince them to turn it down, or you can move. You cant just put up a sound proof wall around your bench and call it yours. The park is public property, so are the deer......it isn't right to claim them as your own, even if you have the means.....JMO


If I paid for the bench then I would put the baddest sound proof wall I could around it.









I've argued your point in the past but have since got a better understanding of what it is all about. Texas has a huge population of whitetails, just some places have more than others. If people would obey the laws and even go a step beyond that and conserve then there would be no need for the high fences. Look at some counties such as Dewitt outside of Victoria. At one time you couldn't even shoot a doe because the place was so shot out. Deer were scarce, unless you were behind a high fence where the deer herd was not decimated due to "shoot whatever moves" mentality.

I leave at 5am tomorrow for a 5 day hunt in what I hope is the rut. I think everyone has a valid and respectful opinion. We can agree to disagree on things and thats helps people think about all sides. I enjoy all the posts here.


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## TxBlue (Mar 18, 2005)

InfamousJ said:


> I think everyone has a valid and respectful opinion. We can agree to disagree on things and thats helps people think about all sides. I enjoy all the posts here.


Couldn't agree more. Aint it fun!!! Good luck, and get you a big one on your hunt!!!!


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## El Cazador (Mar 4, 2005)

RubenZamora said:


> thats a prime example of what I'm talking about, 5 days, 2 bucks and then you went back in the rut and killed even more bucks. So lets say you got 5 - 6 bucks the whole season. Thats f'king GREAT!! I would kill to have a lease where my party could get around 5 bucks a season. That was made possible because a game fence.
> 
> Like I stated, a game fence is 99.9% guarantee you will get something, and I dont care about big trophies, I'm talkin about just bucks (6pts or bigger).


I told myself I would not post anymore on this subject, but I couldn't stand it anymore.

I think it was Infamous that stated it first, but Ruben's quote is exactly the reason most landowners "high fence". If a guy is trying to manage his herd, it is counter productive to have the neighbor killing every antlered deer that walks. I know guys (myself included) that have gone as many as eight years w/o killing a deer. And it was not for a lack of seeing any to shoot. I hunt 15,000 acres and we take _maybe_ 5-6 per year.

In reference to TX Blue's comment on seeing 150+ deer following a feed truck around; I've seen it too... on the King Ranch (all low fence). It isn't the "size of the trap" that allows you to see more animals, it's being selective and making the most out what you have.

Sace in Del Rio is hunting 2000 acres that is high fenced, and it hasn't helped _their _deer herd. I know his portion is only 110 acres +-, but if he and his neighbors could ever agree on a plan for a coop, in a few years they could have a heck of a herd and the high fence was "free".

I stated earlier on this thread that I am not a proponent of high fencing but I understand why they do it and the law allows them to do it. And if people can afford to pay the big bucks for big bucks and if they get satisfaction from hunting the way that they do, that's great. I know I would!


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## RubenZamora (Oct 19, 2005)

again I hear all this talk about manage manage manage and my reply to that is What is so important about managing. The only reason people manage is to get big trophies. But most people dont care about big trophies and just want to go out there for the experience. But if everyone and their grandmother is high fencing their ranches you leave those with low fences **** out of luck. 

The purpose of the TP&WD is to evaluate the population of game and then adjust bag limits accordingly. That in itself is managing already. I see absolutly no reason for an individual ranch owner to manage other than benifiting his business. And that is what I'm against.


I guess I'm just old fashion. I get more joy seeing a huge buck free in the open than inside a high fenced area.


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## Charles Helm (Oct 22, 2004)

InfamousJ said:


> I leave at 5am tomorrow for a 5 day hunt in what I hope is the rut.


 Good luck -- get us some good pictures.


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## Charles Helm (Oct 22, 2004)

This is one of those issues where people have strong feelings and do not easily change their minds. I think it is good that we can have a civil discussion about it. A number of years ago I read John Wooters' _Hunting Trophy Deer_ and it changed my whole approach to hunting. But I do not try to impose that approach on others. I do choose to hunt with those who have similar goals.

Good hunting to everyone, not matter what their philosophy or goals. Stay safe and enjoy the rest of the season.


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## WTN (May 21, 2004)

Just for record, my original post was directed at the guys who are strictly ego driven. They want to BUY the biggest deer available, regardless of how it got that way. What I find most pathetic is these same guys find it necessary to parade around to all the deer contests to win a stinkin jacket and then write some BS story in TTHA. How many of you actually believe that these hunts were "hard" and any skill or luck was involved? Again, its all ego driven.

I applaud everyone who takes an active role in managing the resource; whether its a $10K lease under high fence or a small family farm.


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## Jfreeman (Nov 3, 2004)

RubenZamora said:


> again I hear all this talk about manage manage manage and my reply to that is What is so important about managing. The only reason people manage is to get big trophies. But most people dont care about big trophies and just want to go out there for the experience. But if everyone and their grandmother is high fencing their ranches you leave those with low fences **** out of luck.
> 
> The purpose of the TP&WD is to evaluate the population of game and then adjust bag limits accordingly. That in itself is managing already. I see absolutly no reason for an individual ranch owner to manage other than benifiting his business. And that is what I'm against.
> 
> I guess I'm just old fashion. I get more joy seeing a huge buck free in the open than inside a high fenced area.


You know what they say, opinions are like ********** everybody has one.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*The law*

The ancient law that is embodied in the Texas statutes is that wild animals do not belong to the landowner, but belong to the people of the state of texas. This allows the state wardens to come on to private property, give citations, enforce limits, seasons, etc....otherwise each landowner would treat the animals on his land as his property and do whatever he wanted. Essentially, high fencing is an "in your face" violation of the spirit of the ancient rule of law and was challenged by some. A decade or more ago, wealthy landowners and their buddies on the Parks and Wildlife Commission got the legislature to make a change in the statute. I havent looked it up in a while but it reads something like this:

Main rule: Wild game belongs to the people of the state of Texas....subsection (a) nothing above shall limit or prohibit the establishment of high fences. This is ridiculous.

I think that deer "hunting" is its own form of outdoor recreation. Forget high fencing...sitting in a comfy box blind 100 yards from an automatic feeder is not exactly hunting..but it is fun.


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## fin_adik (Aug 8, 2005)

*again*

Not to step on any toes here because I know a few people who make a living doing this, but... does anybody else remember hunting unmanaged deer? Im not talking about shooting cull deer and trash. Im a big proponent on letting nature take its course, and the aboslute biggest deer I have ever personally seen taken or seen in the wild never saw an ounce of protien or improved forage or bio-mass genetic altereing antler growing powder mix super deer grower supplemental with gensing and titanic tine included. Fire when ready!


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## Sace (May 21, 2004)

Just wanted to fill in something El Cazador mentioned....the first few years at my ranch I tried to round everyone up and set up sometype of management program (feeding program of some sort,,and a limit on what and how many deer we shot..)....something that would help us have a decent herd of animals....but really couldn't get anyone involved or to even respond and the results are exactly what I feared...small herd...I didn't want to manage to create Trophy Racks...I wanted to manage so when my kids start to hunt they would see deer on a daily basis, whether it was does, spikes, or racked deer.....but instead we struggle to see animals...when you have Joe Blow and his entire family filling their tags off of 100 acres...that effects everyone....and now even Joe Blow is complaining about where have the deer gone??? How quick we forget...and what an unlogical question that is..I totally agree with "it's his land, he can do with it which he pleases" but in a low fenced situation like mine...it's totally unlogical to shoot it up and expect to see deer every year...you have to manage the resource and respect it's bounderies...if that means telling your brother he can't shoot a deer that year than so be it. If your nieghbors don't then maybe it's time to get a high fence...and manage the resource yourself...just my .02...


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## scubaru (Mar 28, 2005)

RubenZamora said:


> again I hear all this talk about manage manage manage and my reply to that is What is so important about managing. The only reason people manage is to get big trophies. But most people dont care about big trophies and just want to go out there for the experience. But if everyone and their grandmother is high fencing their ranches you leave those with low fences **** out of luck.
> 
> _The purpose of the TP&WD is to evaluate the population of game and then adjust bag limits accordingly. That in itself is managing already. I see absolutly no reason for an individual ranch owner to manage other than benifiting his business. And that is what I'm against._
> 
> I guess I'm just old fashion. I get more joy seeing a huge buck free in the open than inside a high fenced area.


 I guess East Texas is some of the most well-managed property in the state! 

Are you an individual ranch owner? I am. Yes we operate under a management program, supplemental feed program, and a TPWD Managed-Lands Deer Permit. I haven't shot a big buck in 4 years. Not due to lack of opportunity, but a personal choice. Kind of like those people who make the news by growing giant pumpkins, what did they do it for? Because they could. BTW, our place is low fence, has been recognized by TPWD for producing trophy free-ranging whitetails, and is not a business. But if it was, why are you against the American rancher benefitting his business? Is it because he's doing so well already and that bothers you? The farm and ranch business isn't exactly a turnkey ticket to great fortune. It's quite expensive actually. During the off season we feed on avg 1200# of protein a week, and the same weight in corn during deer season. To levy this expense it cost hunters $ 0.00 to hunt our ranch. That is because it is invite only to friends and family. Grill a mean ribeye, do some dishes, do your part around camp, and you can hunt again next year. Guess we're kind of old fashioned like that.


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## TxBlue (Mar 18, 2005)

scubaru said:


> Are you an individual ranch owner? I am. Yes we operate under a management program, supplemental feed program, and a TPWD Managed-Lands Deer Permit. I haven't shot a big buck in 4 years. Not due to lack of opportunity, but a personal choice. Kind of like those people who make the news by growing giant pumpkins, what did they do it for? Because they could. BTW, our place is low fence, has been recognized by TPWD for producing trophy free-ranging whitetails, and is not a business. But if it was, why are you against the American rancher benefitting his business? Is it because he's doing so well already and that bothers you? The farm and ranch business isn't exactly a turnkey ticket to great fortune. It's quite expensive actually. During the off season we feed on avg 1200# of protein a week, and the same weight in corn during deer season. To levy this expense it cost hunters $ 0.00 to hunt our ranch. That is because it is invite only to friends and family. Grill a mean ribeye, do some dishes, do your part around camp, and you can hunt again next year. Guess we're kind of old fashioned like that.


You mean it is possible ?!? A trohpy class ranch, low fenced, that still holds to the hunting values that we were brought up on!!! A breath of fresh air.... there is still hope.

BTW I am famous for my ribeyes, and not afraid of a little soapy water!


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

unfortunatly there are a number of people who see hunting as an oppertunity to increase their personal wealth. just my 2 cents, Kurt.


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## RubenZamora (Oct 19, 2005)

Sorry my postings lately in this thread have been with High Fencing in mind. I think it is GREAT that some of you are managing in low fenced areas. That is what I like. Free ranging trophies. 

Sorry I wasnt more clear. I kind of realized that after my post but got busy and didnt re-edit it.


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## scubaru (Mar 28, 2005)

No worries bro, thanks for clearing it up for us.



RubenZamora said:


> Sorry my postings lately in this thread have been with High Fencing in mind. I think it is GREAT that some of you are managing in low fenced areas. That is what I like. Free ranging trophies.
> 
> Sorry I wasnt more clear. I kind of realized that after my post but got busy and didnt re-edit it.


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

scubaru said:


> http://www.spearboard.com/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=0&forumid=43# To levy this expense it cost hunters $ 0.00 to hunt our ranch. That is because it is invite only to friends and family. Grill a mean ribeye, do some dishes, do your part around camp, and you can hunt again next year. Guess we're kind of old fashioned like that.


Can I be your friend? I know my way around a grill and ain't afraid of soapy water!!  :rotfl:

Sounds like you got a nice deal going there. MLD is where it's at. Did it for 5 years and it's sweet program. Good for you guys.


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## ELF62 (Dec 24, 2004)

scubaru said:


> Are you an individual ranch owner? I am. Yes we operate under a management program, supplemental feed program, and a TPWD Managed-Lands Deer Permit. I haven't shot a big buck in 4 years. Not due to lack of opportunity, but a personal choice. Kind of like those people who make the news by growing giant pumpkins, what did they do it for? Because they could. BTW, our place is low fence, has been recognized by TPWD for producing trophy free-ranging whitetails, and is not a business. But if it was, why are you against the American rancher benefitting his business? Is it because he's doing so well already and that bothers you? The farm and ranch business isn't exactly a turnkey ticket to great fortune. It's quite expensive actually. During the off season we feed on avg 1200# of protein a week, and the same weight in corn during deer season. To levy this expense it cost hunters $ 0.00 to hunt our ranch. That is because it is invite only to friends and family. Grill a mean ribeye, do some dishes, do your part around camp, and you can hunt again next year. Guess we're kind of old fashioned like that.


Great job...You are an example of the Right way to manage...The only problem I have is when people say "the reason a ranch owner "High Fences" is to be able to manage "HIS" herd. When did it stop being the states herd and and become his herd? You are living proof that it can be done without the high fences. In my opioion High fences= greed. Fire away high fence boys!!


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