# Jim Hogg Hunting Lease



## wellconnected (May 30, 2005)

Here is the deal. I lease or should I say leased 1100 acres of super prime hunting property in Jim Hogg county. Place is absolutely load with deer. It was nothing to see 10-15 bucks per hunt. As of today I have given the place up. The land owner is an older woman that is SUPER hard to deal with. My group managed the place for the last two seasons and this season looks to be the best yet. She basically had a problem with 3 of our 7 guys on the lease. Our money was due April first and she let them know then that they were off the lease. I filled the three spots with members of my family. Recently when my 3 friends try and get their stuff, the land owner said it had been too long (2 months) and that she now owned everything. This included jeeps, blinds, feeder, etc. This now put me right in the middle of the crossfire. Kicking them off the lease was one thing but keeping their stuff was another. I ended up siding with my friends and she went ballistic on me. She offered my money back today and I decided all the stress was not worth it and took it. So as of today I no longer have a lease. The price of the lease was 2,000 per gun. I do not think she has a group yet. If someone wanted to lease it they could probably call her and lease it.

After this incident, my group has shrunk to 4 hunters. I would like to have another lease in South Texas or maybe the southern part of the hill country that has decent hunting. We would even be willing to join a larger group.

I am so disgusted with hunting right now. I dont understand why land owners lose their minds. I would bring this lady bags and bags of fish everytime I went to the ranch. I could go on and on.

If anyone knows of land or spots, or looking to upgrade their existing lease, I would be willing to trade phone numbers. Of course I guarantee nothing but I just gave the lease up today so she is going to start looking quickly I am sure. Please PM me if you have or know of something and I will PM you with her number.

I know this post is probably stupid but I need to find something and believe someone could truly enjoy my old lease. It is a hunters paradise with a lot of baggage.


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## Silverspoon (Jun 1, 2005)

Sounds to me like more of a pain in the..........than anything. I would hope that your friends get some legal advise and try to get their stuff back. I don't think she can legally do what she is doing with their property.


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## wellconnected (May 30, 2005)

They spoke to a judge in hebbronville and a sheriff was sent to her house today. She agreed to let them in ONLY after the sheriff agreed to be there also. The lease to me was not worth the troubles. I believe a 160+ class deer would have been killed this year. I just want something smaller and simple now without the drama or stress. It truly seems that I had more fun on leases with less deer and less drama. I want the old days back!


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

I feel your pain, I went through a jeckel and hide land owner once........
I put up with no SHEET anymore from these primidona land owners.
I'm huntin several other states now for alot less.......and will continue.
Ofcourse if the right Texas lease came around I would get on it just for my sons.
But I dont need it........


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## ruben f. (Nov 28, 2006)

Don't know how it could be a hunters paradise with that ol' hyde a part of anything down there. I truly believe what you say about a big deer (160) being taken this year. A crying shame some people can't get over themselves and their ranch. Good luck to you on your next venture. Rube-out!


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## Jtaylor (Apr 14, 2005)

Okay... time for someone to be a bad guy.


I certainly feel your pain. It is real, and I do feel like hunters get the raw end sometimes. BUT. Thats why you call it a lease. You have from day 1 through day 365, and that is it. After that, its up for grabs. It doesn't matter how well you managed last year, what you did or didn't shoot, the landowner can ALWAYS do what they want, legally, with their property. AND FURTHERMORE, they SHOULD be able to. As much as I hate to see the price of leases escalate, I STRIVE for the property owner to have that right. I also feel that if a property owner decides to lease their property, they have the right to decide whether or not they like, or can put up with, the group or individuals who have leased. And if they can't, so be it. They have that right. Imagine that you have leased out an extra bedroom in your house. Three months down the road, you don't like the person. How would you like to be forced to allow them to stay a full year (providing their is no contract)? Or, would you run them off as soon as possible? I know what I would do... and they would NOT have a two month grace period to come get their stuff.

I am both a landowner AND a lessor, so I have a pretty good view of both sides of the fence... and also know their is two sides to each story. Your landowner probably doesn't like these guys for good reason. And you, my friend, have every right to stand up for your friends. Just want everyone to realize that the landowner has EVERY right to kick them off and keep their stuff if they didn't get it in a reasonable timeframe IN HER MIND.

I see way too many threads about people losing leases and they always blame it on the greedy landowners.

Well, I know lots of these greedy landowners and most of them are just reacting to tough times... hay at $90 a round bale last year, feed corn is high... where do you think that they make up their losses? From other income on their ranch! Especially when most hunters are in better financial situation than the ranchers. 

We could all pay twice as much for beef and crops... maybe then they could drop the price of leases to where hunters would be happy... but you know... the world doesn't revolve around us... but maybe it should for a change!


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## swtmike (Jul 20, 2005)

Well said.


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## stxhunter (May 19, 2006)

It sucks that happened to you and your buddies!! I am looking for a lease as well. I prefer Jim Wells, Jim Hogg and Duval. If I find anything I will let you know and do me a favor and let me know if you find one as well. Sounds like it was a great place to hunt and places like that dont come up often!!!


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## wellconnected (May 30, 2005)

Jtaylor said:


> Okay... time for someone to be a bad guy.
> 
> I certainly feel your pain. It is real, and I do feel like hunters get the raw end sometimes. BUT. Thats why you call it a lease. You have from day 1 through day 365, and that is it. After that, its up for grabs. It doesn't matter how well you managed last year, what you did or didn't shoot, the landowner can ALWAYS do what they want, legally, with their property. AND FURTHERMORE, they SHOULD be able to. As much as I hate to see the price of leases escalate, I STRIVE for the property owner to have that right. I also feel that if a property owner decides to lease their property, they have the right to decide whether or not they like, or can put up with, the group or individuals who have leased. And if they can't, so be it. They have that right. Imagine that you have leased out an extra bedroom in your house. Three months down the road, you don't like the person. How would you like to be forced to allow them to stay a full year (providing their is no contract)? Or, would you run them off as soon as possible? I know what I would do... and they would NOT have a two month grace period to come get their stuff.
> 
> ...


You do have the right to your opinion but in my case you do not know the facts. I agree that there is two sides to every story but not in this case. My friends did NOTHING nor did the rest of the group. We are a model group that did nothing but treat her and her land with the utmost respect. We called her and stopped by everytime we went to the lease. I brought her groceries from Corpus everytime. Other friends burned her music CD's of classical music. Not one of us EVER did anything to disrespect this woman. We followed every rule to the letter and even went beyond on the game management side. We spent a ton of money to help improve the ranch. We even had a contract this year which SHE broke. The reason was because we had not cut down a small pile of cactus in camp (later we found out the real reason). This is the exact reason that many regular hunters dont care about game management anymore. I just built a better herd for the next group. I just heard that the reason for the hostility was that a group offered her more money. $hit we had already payed her half and had a contract. Is it worth going to court over....NO. Does it make me rotten about my situation...YES. Trust me I know I am not the only one that goes through this $hit. I hear stories all the time even worse than mine. How much do you think I am going to trust the next land owner. I passed up several young 150 class deer. I had an investment on that ranch even though I did not own it. I put more money into that ranch over the last 2 years than she put in the last 20. I could take this to court and win hands down without blinking for breach of contract. Money rules in hunting and it is not going to get any better. Greedy landowners can do whatever they want with their land. Things used to be based on ethics and principles...not anymore. It was ethically wrong what she did to us and for what.....a few extra thousand.


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## swtmike (Jul 20, 2005)

"Money rules in hunting and it is not going to get any better. Greedy landowners can do whatever they want with their land. Things used to be based on ethics and principles...not anymore. It was ethically wrong what she did to us and for what.....a few extra thousand"

I'm getting tired of hearing about these situations. I agree 100% that it sucks, but on the flip side, go buy 1,100 acres in Jim Hogg County, the interest income alone on the money forgone by that expenditure would be 4 times the amount in lease that you were paying in lease, so maybe the land owner should have the right to continue to look for higher paying leasee's. That few thousand dollars extra might have doubled her yearly income. For all we know she might be just barely able to hold on to that property that her grandpa used to own, it might be the only thing left that she cares about. Who knows. I am sorry to hear about your loss, but I think I would take her to court. It's going to have to start one day or we'll be hearing about these broken contracts for many more years to come.


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## Jtaylor (Apr 14, 2005)

The landowner ALWAYS has the right to look for higher revenue generating options on THEIR land. Period. No matter how you look at it... ALWAYS. Its her land.


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## wellconnected (May 30, 2005)

Jtaylor said:


> The landowner ALWAYS has the right to look for higher revenue generating options on THEIR land. Period. No matter how you look at it... ALWAYS. Its her land.


But NOT when they have already accepted half our money and there is a contract in place. Had she told us at the end of last season that she was going up...FINE we would have paid it with no problems. It goes back to ETHICS and the way she handled the situation. She broke the law plain and simple. Now how far do I have to take it to simply kill a deer. It is just not worth it anymore. And yes I own a ranch in freer (no quality deer if you were going to ask why I dont hunt it) and a large farm here in Corpus. I know what it cost to own and operate land. My land has been leased to the same farmer for the last 30 years. Why? Simple....i am an ethical, fair land owner who is thankful for having someone that takes care of my land as I am not a farmer. If someone offered me double what he is paying I would not even consider it and I am by no means wealthy. Again why? Because he and his father have treated my land as if it were their own for the past 30 years. It is really hard to put a price on this. ETHICS.


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## BigBuck (Mar 2, 2005)

*Stuff*

Regardless of what happened, contract or not, a landowner does *not* have the right to keep your stuff. Believe me, I know, we had a guy get off our ranch, and left an old truck there. Five years later he wanted to come get it, the lawyers said we had to let him, under provisions we provided. If my car breaks down on your land, you do not own it. You may have it towed, or send a notice that you will be charging rent after a certain date, that is about all. 
Sorry for your pain. I agree, contract or not, if you go to court and get the lease for this year, would you really want to hunt there? Cut your losses, get your stuff and move on. Still sux though.
Good luck finding a new place.
BB


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## Jtaylor (Apr 14, 2005)

So mr wellconnected, if a reputable company offered you double your salary, you wouldnt even consider it because you are ethical?

Surely you jest! Not that you arent ethical. Maybe the needs of this elderly lady has changed, and she needs more money for medical or whatever. It really doesn't matter.

If she decides to lease to another group for more money, its her perogative. And her right. You have ABSOLUTELY no right to EXPECT to get to shoot a deer next year, that you have passed up this year so you could "let it grow". I hate to keep stepping on toes, but I think that we, as hunters, need to be put in our place every once in a while. We have no further right or expectations on any land, unless we own it ourselves. While it would be nice to think "long term" most landowners long term plans tends to their needs and their financial needs.. not those needs or wants of their hunters.

I really can't say that i think the landowners are wrong. I advertised a while back looking for hunters to fill my lease. Most... and I mean 95% of the hundreds of people who inquired were after more than hunting. In my opinion, they were slob hunters. They want to call it a deer lease.. or hunting lease, but they really want a place that they can drink beer all night around a campfire, then run all over the place with a 4 wheeler, then do a little recreational shooting. None of this really has anything to do with hunting at all. It has a LOT to do with city folk wanting to get out of the city for a weekend.


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## LazyJeff (Jan 20, 2006)

*Yep*

I'm getting tired of hearing about these situations. I agree 100% that it sucks, but on the flip side, go buy 1,100 acres in Jim Hogg County, the interest income alone on the money forgone by that expenditure would be 4 times the amount in lease that you were paying in lease, so maybe the land owner should have the right to continue to look for higher paying leasee's. That few thousand dollars extra might have doubled her yearly income. For all we know she might be just barely able to hold on to that property that her grandpa used to own, it might be the only thing left that she cares about. Who knows. I am sorry to hear about your loss, but I think I would take her to court. It's going to have to start one day or we'll be hearing about these broken contracts for many more years to come.[/QUOTE] 


Money does rule and she does have the right, but its doubtful that she's barely able to hang on to the land if grandpa used to own it. I'd be surprised if the total tax was more than 1k. 
Again she does have the right and I agree, I'd take her to court. Although she'd most likely come out on top in a local jurisdiction.


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## swtmike (Jul 20, 2005)

Well said again JT, I agree completely. But I think what needs to be addressed here is the breach of contract. If you had already signed a contract, all parties paid their rightful percentage and the landowner gives you the boot for no foreseen reason and "you can prove that", then I would try to hunt there again in spite of her, and in the mean time be looking for another place for the following year. 
I just wish that when hunters have this unfortunate situation happen to them they would not refer to all the 150 class deer they passed up in hopes for them to age and get bigger. Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that hunters are doing this but honestly if you are going to let that be the reason for being upset about loosing a lease, then start shooting young deer, you're paying for the right. You're just taking a chance in hoping that they will get bigger. Unfortunately, it wasn't environmental effects that caused the situation, but it could have been. Think of the hunters hit by anthrax.


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## swtmike (Jul 20, 2005)

LazyJ, I agree, she is probably able to hold onto it with out any problems. But think of how many ranches go under and are forced to sell. There are a lot of scenarios. Maybe they had to sell the mineral rights back in one of the droughts to survive (that happened to numerous ranches in south texas), so she's not getting any money from minerals, her social security is low, medical is high, and her only other source of income is lease. Is she doing well financially? I don't know, but for some reason everyone relates having ranch land as having money. Yeah when and if it sells, until then money could be very tight.


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## Jtaylor (Apr 14, 2005)

Thats true Mike. Also, I do hunt my lease in hopes of being there next year.. and the year after, and so on. I am sure that due to some unforeseen reason, there will be a time that there will not be a next year on this place.


And yes, there could be a breach of contract. However, in looking back and re-reading my contract, I notice little things that I have been in breach of myself. Especially the parts that read about access on the ranch while muddy. I know that several times in the past year, I have been there while parts of the ranch was muddy. I didn't intentionally rut up those roads, but none the less, I have left ruts.

I am sure that if I read the lease TO THE LETTER, I could find instances where I have broken lease laws, however minute they might be. Of course, what is minute to me, might not be to the rancher. Before I quit smoking, I tried to put every cigarette butt in an empty can, or in the back of my truck. But also, I am sure that over the course of years, working on stands, etc, I have dropped a few on the ground and left them. Our lease reads that we have to pick up and get rid of all trash. Well, thats a rule that I have broken.

I am sure that most ranches/landowners could find little things that we all do that is against the contract or rules.

Bottom line is that if a landowner doesn't want me or my group there, its time to cut losses and find another lease. And I guess when I get tired of leasing, I will buy property of my own to hunt. I personally have land that I lease out for cattle and fishing. My income from this foots my bill for leasing hunting priveledges on a lease. The guy who runs cattle on my land has had it for 20 years. Yes, I could get more money, and I may someday. Though I don't feel like i CANT shop around, I don't have to at the moment. But dont think for one minute that if I can't cover my hunting lease cost through leasing my land for cattle, If my lessee isn't paying market price for my land, I will find someone who will. And in my opinion, there isn't a thing wrong with doing that. And my lessors aren't even under a contract. I lease to them with a handshake.


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## LazyJeff (Jan 20, 2006)

*Sore Spot*



swtmike said:


> LazyJ, I agree, she is probably able to hold onto it with out any problems. But think of how many ranches go under and are forced to sell. There are a lot of scenarios. Maybe they had to sell the mineral rights back in one of the droughts to survive (that happened to numerous ranches in south texas), so she's not getting any money from minerals, her social security is low, medical is high, and her only other source of income is lease. Is she doing well financially? I don't know, but for some reason everyone relates having ranch land as having money. Yeah when and if it sells, until then money could be very tight.


I have a small property that allows me to hunt, shoot, fish and get away when I want and I am by no means wealthy and I'm not one to assume having ranch land equates to an overabundance of money. I've also got little sympathy for money being tight in a specific group of people that have significant property and income tax exemptions. These exemptions are continually abused and not used for what they were intended for, but that's a subject better suited for another board, certainly not a hunting board. Lets just agree that:

1) Not all landowners are wealthy

2) Not all landowners are scraping by


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## swtmike (Jul 20, 2005)

By all means I agree.


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## mickey839 (Jun 10, 2006)

Bottom line is that it's wrong. If you sign a contract with somebody and accept their money, you shouldn't go behind their back and screw them over. Yes it is their land, but once you sign a contract leasing that land, you give the leasee certain priveleges to it. It is morally and ethically disgraceful and against every principle a decent person should've learned growing up. If she didn't want the other people on the lease from the beginning, then that's okay. At least she did the right thing and tell them beforehand that she wasn't renewing them. But to not let them get their stuff back. Why? Just to be a controlling @$$hole? She has no claim to somebody else's personal property that she allowed them to put there. C'mon now, whats right is right, whats wrong is wrong.


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## Jtaylor (Apr 14, 2005)

Maybe she thought that two months to get their stuff was too long? If I told someone I wasn't going to renew them, I would want their stuff gone ASAP. She had no use for their stuff anyway, from what I can tell. It sounds to me like she was trying to prove a point.


I don't encourage breaking a contract, by either party. However, possession is 9/10 of the law. And it sounds to me like she possesses this land.
I have a question for you wellconnected. I too have a contract in hand. However, the contract that is currently in place is last years contract, and will be until the new one goes into effect September 1st. Is it possible that she didn't really break a contract and that yours really isn't in place until Sept 1? Mine is a year round, and mine isn't valid until I pay my second half, and Sept 1 rolls around. Just a thought. Maybe she's getting nervous about being in a contract, and wants to take care of any issues she has with her current group before she locks in to be legally obilgated.


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## wellconnected (May 30, 2005)

Jtaylor said:


> Maybe she thought that two months to get their stuff was too long? If I told someone I wasn't going to renew them, I would want their stuff gone ASAP. She had no use for their stuff anyway, from what I can tell. It sounds to me like she was trying to prove a point.
> 
> I don't encourage breaking a contract, by either party. However, possession is 9/10 of the law. And it sounds to me like she possesses this land.
> I have a question for you wellconnected. I too have a contract in hand. However, the contract that is currently in place is last years contract, and will be until the new one goes into effect September 1st. Is it possible that she didn't really break a contract and that yours really isn't in place until Sept 1? Mine is a year round, and mine isn't valid until I pay my second half, and Sept 1 rolls around. Just a thought. Maybe she's getting nervous about being in a contract, and wants to take care of any issues she has with her current group before she locks in to be legally obilgated.


Our contract begins April 1 each year and becomes legally effective when the first half of the money is paid (it was and we signed off). If I were to sue her I would win. The woman is by no means poor nor does she live off the money. Jtaylor you need to realize that ethics are of a personal matter but a contract and taking someone elses stuff is of a legal matter. Ownership of a piece of property does not entitle you to do whatever you want. A judge would rule in my favor if I chose to take it to court. I do agree with you on the matter of just walking away and moving on. This is my exact plan. Jtaylor, let me know and I will PM her phone number to you if you are looking for a good lease. You should have no problem getting along with her.


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## ruben f. (Nov 28, 2006)

I'm on your side,Wellconnected! Durn, some people can't respect a written piece of paper that should bind 2 parties. Be ethical and do the right thing. When it comes to renewal time, a landowner should accept a given group of hunters and their money. If not, tell them to pack up and move on. On the flipside, hunters need to do their duty and respect land they lease. On another note, hunters should remember to hunt for the shear enjoyment of it. All this management,high fence,protein.etc. is killing hunting. Our group hunts the hill country and we feed a little corn to bait animals to make it easier to kill them. We kill them because we like to eat them. A decent rack on a buck is truly a plus. We look forward to hunting together because we like hanging around with each other, sharing a campfire, and telling a story or two. We wash all this down with a cold beer or a good drink. I always tell other hunters, if I ever see a big deer(140,150,whatever), he's going down. I don't care if he was only 4 1/2. He will soon reside on my wall. Stories like this one about nutty landowners suck! A word to the wise: He who angers you, controls you! And yes, I respect our deer lease and love my Buckcity ranch. At least their, I can do what I want, when I want. Good luck to all this coming deer season. Rube-out!


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## Jtaylor (Apr 14, 2005)

Haha, no thanks. I don't want her phone number. I already have a great lease, thank you very much. Don't take this so personal. I just wanted to remind everyone that what isn't yours... isn't yours. Her land is hers to do with what she wants. In the beginning, you didn't mention the contract.

You also mentioned that you were a "model" group to lease to. I am also sure that most groups think exactly that. Its all the "other groups" that are not model groups. 

Its never anyones fault that something like this happens... its always the greedy landowner.


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## wellconnected (May 30, 2005)

ruben f. said:


> I'm on your side,Wellconnected! Durn, some people can't respect a written piece of paper that should bind 2 parties. Be ethical and do the right thing. When it comes to renewal time, a landowner should accept a given group of hunters and their money. If not, tell them to pack up and move on. On the flipside, hunters need to do their duty and respect land they lease. On another note, hunters should remember to hunt for the shear enjoyment of it. All this management,high fence,protein.etc. is killing hunting. Our group hunts the hill country and we feed a little corn to bait animals to make it easier to kill them. We kill them because we like to eat them. A decent rack on a buck is truly a plus. We look forward to hunting together because we like hanging around with each other, sharing a campfire, and telling a story or two. We wash all this down with a cold beer or a good drink. I always tell other hunters, if I ever see a big deer(140,150,whatever), he's going down. I don't care if he was only 4 1/2. He will soon reside on my wall. Stories like this one about nutty landowners suck! A word to the wise: He who angers you, controls you! And yes, I respect our deer lease and love my Buckcity ranch. At least their, I can do what I want, when I want. Good luck to all this coming deer season. Rube-out!


Amen! Somewhere along the line I forgot how much fun I had when we had leases with very little deer, very few problems, a great group of friends, and the best times of my life. This may sound stupid, but it seems that my fun times have gone down with my pursuit of bigger ranches and bigger deer. Things became more of a stress than a pleasure. This season my criteria is about to change....if I hunt this season.


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## wellconnected (May 30, 2005)

Jtaylor said:


> Haha, no thanks. I don't want her phone number. I already have a great lease, thank you very much. Don't take this so personal. I just wanted to remind everyone that what isn't yours... isn't yours. Her land is hers to do with what she wants. In the beginning, you didn't mention the contract.
> 
> You also mentioned that you were a "model" group to lease to. I am also sure that most groups think exactly that. Its all the "other groups" that are not model groups.
> 
> Its never anyones fault that something like this happens... its always the greedy landowner.


Dont worry JTaylor nothing taken personal. 2cool needs a good devils advocate to go against every post.....


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## Jtaylor (Apr 14, 2005)

Actually, Im not going against every post... just yours. jk


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## ruben f. (Nov 28, 2006)

Glad you agree! And heck yes we as hunters can lose our way. I always say, when it becomes more work than play, I'm out! Set your stuff up right the first time,feed a little corn, and sit back and relax. Hunting is meant to be enjoyed in these modern times. Its not for survival any more. And who really cares what a buck scores. If its big to you, its big to me. Peace. Rube-out!


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## asolde (May 22, 2004)

*Too bad*

I have lost two leases in similar ways, bad deal on one of them. Sorry to hear of your lease deal, but sometimes you just got to move on. Sure you can take the land owner to court and maybe you will win or maybe you will loose. I don't think that you really want to go to court. I think your looking for a nice easy going place to enjoy the outdoors and if you shoot one great if you don't no big deal. Take your time and search out the right place for you. I am still learning all this stuff about leases and contracts when I was use to hunting land as far as the eye can see. Stay with your decision on getting off the lease it was the right one for you. Good luck to you and be patient on finding a new lease.


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## redog (Apr 12, 2007)

Mr J. Taylor,
You really don`t have a leg to stand on Sir! 
I don`t understand why u are knocking down Wellconneced it is the landowner that broke contract Not perch slayer ! she better be thinkful that Wellconneced is a good person and not sueing her butt off! A contract is for both party`s so we can all be on the same page not one sided ! Yes i to think two months is a little long also but this does not give her the right to steal ! Passing up young 150`s ,why this woman should be very pleased to see that her hunters care about deer management ! We hunter pay a lot of money to hunt and try to take care of our hunting places because if we don`t there well be nothing left to hunt and u land owners won`t have the income ..and whats wrong with haveing a beer or two as long as its done in a safe and well manner way ! In my eye Wellconnected and is group has done nothing wrong and as put up with a lot of BS from a landowner that really does know what good hunters she really had ! If she wanted more money then she should said not go behind there backs . Just because your the landowner does not give you the right to act like God if u don`t want me on your land tell me from the start not after i broke my back tring to make it a better place for everyone. 

Good luck to u Wellconnected It hurts to loose a good place after u and your group were doing the right thing Some people just cant help to beat you down !!!!!
redog


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

I'm agree with you 100% Wellconnected..
I would have done the same as you on deer management and how you treated the land.
Only to get screwed as you did.
If I get on another Texas lease, I would still do the same thing as I know you would.
This is the chance we take by investing OUR money on SOMEONE ELSE"S land.
Sorry to hear of this odeal.......
And when it happens to some of the folks on here they will know how we feel.
Its easy to talk when its not you.........


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## Lagunabob (May 19, 2005)

Jtaylor said:


> Maybe she thought that two months to get their stuff was too long? If I told someone I wasn't going to renew them, I would want their stuff gone ASAP. She had no use for their stuff anyway, from what I can tell. It sounds to me like she was trying to prove a point.
> 
> I don't encourage breaking a contract, by either party. However, possession is 9/10 of the law. And it sounds to me like she possesses this land.
> I have a question for you wellconnected. I too have a contract in hand. However, the contract that is currently in place is last years contract, and will be until the new one goes into effect September 1st. Is it possible that she didn't really break a contract and that yours really isn't in place until Sept 1? Mine is a year round, and mine isn't valid until I pay my second half, and Sept 1 rolls around. Just a thought. Maybe she's getting nervous about being in a contract, and wants to take care of any issues she has with her current group before she locks in to be legally obilgated.


remind me never to business with or lease from you.


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

If it was about money, it would have been real easy for her to simply hold her end of the deal and make them aware that prices are going up next year. It's hard to speculate either way, given the fact the only 2 people that really know the situation are the landowner and leasee. 


Maybe a long shot here but I have seen some elderly folks that were the nicest people you could meet and over time became very disconnected with the rest of the world, becoming short tempered and cantacerous towards people they wer eonce close to (family included). Some people just become bitter for no explainable reason at all. 

Who knows. It sucks either way.


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## deadeye68 (Jan 19, 2007)

Main Frame 8 you may have just hit the nail on the head. I have seen the same thing in relatives. They simply change for some unexplainable reason and trying to discuss things with them seems to set them off even more. It's a sad thing too, cause when old age takes over usually the only thing that still works right is your mind.Besides any good-hearted Texan would not want to do battle with an old lady it's just disrespectful.


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## warcat (May 22, 2004)

Just so I'm understanding this.... what could wellconnected sue for? The right to hunt that ranch this year? Mental anguish? I don't really get it. If she gave back the money and the stuff, then there's nothing left to go after.


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## wellconnected (May 30, 2005)

warcat said:


> Just so I'm understanding this.... what could wellconnected sue for? The right to hunt that ranch this year? Mental anguish? I don't really get it. If she gave back the money and the stuff, then there's nothing left to go after.


I could have and still could refuse the refund. She has not returned the groups money yet. In speaking with a judge in hebbronville, the exchange of money on April 1 for half the lease initiated the contract. Even if there were no written contract, the money would have been enough. This judge would have ruled in my favor. I would have been allowed to hunt one more season. She could still refuse. At that time a trial would take place and the lease would not be able to be leased to anyone else until a final decision was made by the courts. You basically sue to be made "whole" (their words not mine). After reading what I just wrote I just sit here and say WHY?


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

wellconnected said:


> I could have and still could refuse the refund. She has not returned the groups money yet. In speaking with a judge in hebbronville, the exchange of money on April 1 for half the lease initiated the contract. Even if there were no written contract, the money would have been enough. This judge would have ruled in my favor. I would have been allowed to hunt one more season. She could still refuse. At that time a trial would take place and the lease would not be able to be leased to anyone else until a final decision was made by the courts. You basically sue to be made "whole" (their words not mine). After reading what I just wrote I just sit here and say WHY?


 Even if judgement were awarded to the hunters, it would only get worse from there. I could envision the lady (if she was that adamanet about it), firing up the truck and driving around during hunting hours, honking the horn. Maybe even have the game warden stopping by with frequency. You get the picture. If anything, I would seek monetary damages and claim "fear of retaliation" if you stayed.

It's just a bad deal all around.


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## Jtaylor (Apr 14, 2005)

I still feel that landowners DO and SHOULD still have more rights to their land than hunters do, even when a contract is in place.

Try acting like this in 1880 with some landowner, contract or not. I dont think that case would ever come to a judge, i imagine the landowner would settle it with a 45.


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## mywifeshusband (Nov 19, 2006)

Over the years I have lost two leases. The first the owners' son leased it out from under us, long story cut short we got it back then lost it years later. The lease was the famly homestead and it was on a handshake agreement with the head of the family. He was a retired officer and my father-in law was a retired E8 and a friend and neighbor. He would have been upset at his own son for what he did. The son wanted to cut some firewood and was told okay untill they found out he had sold the timber and the **** hit the fan. Next lease i think everyone has heard of Langtry that is where we were. We kicked an unethical hunter off the lease. We think he went to the landowner and said that we were shooting everthing that moved. I think you have the picture. We were given 90 days to get off. This lease had been going for over 20 years. That was a chore because no one lived less than 400 miles away. We stored our belongings, what was not stolen, close by and found a lease in Rocksprings and moved to it. This year I kicked 2 people off the lease, one being a friend of the broker we deal with. If you want the details why these 2 are gone pm me I promise you I had real good reasons to do it. I might have to move again and we have a small city the way we are setup. I know it is no fun to go through this and I also think that when the broker and I sit and talk he will understand a lot, then again he might not. To wellconnected, my heart aches for you. I think if it was me, yes, I would go to court and let the landowner know that it is her reputation that is on line and that all of her neighbors will know what type of person she really is. What I have been told is that you have 90 days to get your possessions off of the property. I will admit I am no lawyer but then again there is a time you have to take a stand. BEAU


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## redog (Apr 12, 2007)

HaHaHa 18 What ! Yes you are right the landowner has the right to set the rules for the hunters ..what game to take ,no drinking , how many guns on the the lease, cost of the lease, ect. and if these rules are broken then this brakes the contract. and landowner has the right to go after the hunter. It works the same way for the hunters ! But when there is no contract and just a hand shake these day`s that can get real nasty . 

I like old western movies too but this is year 2007 !!!!


And if some one came at me with a 45!... Will I always wanted to own my own Hunting Ranch !!!


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## Jtaylor (Apr 14, 2005)

Well redog, if they shoot you, you don't get their property!


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## Jtaylor (Apr 14, 2005)

I guess the point is... that although we ALL think very highly of our leases... it is only our *lease...* and we can never do more than the contract explicitly states that we can do, else we stand a chance of losing. Unless, of course, you are willing to shell out the cash to buy your own place. Then, and only then, will you really have the rights to do what you want... and then, you can bet that if you pass up a good deer, you will have the opportunity to hunt him next year.

Usually, if the landowner is willing to change hunting groups, its because they have done something that the landowner does not like, or its for money.

Either way, the landowner has that right... and should ALWAYS have that right. God Bless landowners. If it wasn't for them, the government would own all the land and we would all have to draw a permit to hunt. So be thankful for those who aren't a problem to deal with.

I really wouldn't be a bad guy to lease from, like some of you apparently think. And thats okay. I have never tried to please everyone.. just be fair to me and to the folks that I lease cattle and fishing rights to. They have never complained, and I have never needed a contract. However, if I were to drive over to my property and see that the guy who leases for cattle is fishing or in my duck hunting blind this fall, he won't have the place next year. Nor would I expect to find him cutting firewood without asking. Somehow, us country people have more respect for each other than that. Not to ding you city people, but it seems that most of the city people that I have been on a lease with think that they can do almost anything on a hunting lease. Not sure why.


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

Jtaylor said:


> Somehow, us country people have more respect for each other than that. Not to ding you city people, but it seems that most of the city people that I have been on a lease with think that they can do almost anything on a hunting lease. Not sure why.


 I've seen plenty of country and city folks with a low standard of moral ethics. I haven't heard of any city folk road hunting around our area. It's the local country boys we've had problems with. Damage to blinds and feeders is likely not due to some guy who drove up to my lease from a city and just happened to know where my stuff is.

I don't profess to be either city or country. I am more of a Urban *******.


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## Aggiewes (Jan 10, 2005)

Jtaylor said:


> Somehow, us country people have more respect for each other than that. Not to ding you city people, but it seems that most of the city people that I have been on a lease with think that they can do almost anything on a hunting lease. Not sure why.


Come on....... Appreciate your defense of landowner's rights. However, the guy who started this thread discussed ethics... I haven't stayed up on all the posts of this novel. However, I can guarantee you that for every story you refer to above, some "CITY" guy has a story about treating a landowner's property better than the landowner did after the landowner has promised the rights of first refusal (but says I only do deals on a handshake)..... only to get a call telling you to get your stuff off the property in a short time frame because "an offer I can't refuse" came along (and the offer included stands and feeders you paid for and built yourself).....

This is not "City" vs "Country"....

JTaylor - "Possession is 9/10ths of the law" is merely a cliche that holds no merit in a court of law (except to landowners who think it is all theirs.....)

Wes


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## mr. deer (Jan 22, 2007)

What I don't understand is why are you offering up her phone number when you said she already leased it at a higher rate? Why would you want to put anyone in touch with a person like the one you are describing? If I were you and you thought you had a case, take her to court. I bet if the landowner had an opportunity to take a hunter to court they would in a flash. This is not a marriage, have no mercy!


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