# Shot Shell critics



## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

Unless you post up a picture of the pattern *you* shot from *your* gun, at a measured distance and do a pellet count inside a 30" circle,.....your recommendation on shells will be ingored, laughed at, discarded etc etc.

*THIS IS* the only way a persom knows what he is dealling with. All the comments about "hit hard, fell dead, fluttered away, yada yada is just witch craft with NO SCIENCE involved.

I WOULD post up picture of some of the 100's of patterns I shot while testing reloads and factory shells BUT....that would be sharing the unfair advantage I have worked hard for and enjoyed over the past decades.

That is all...carry on.


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

Timemachine said:


> Unless you post up a picture of the pattern *you* shot from *your* gun, at a measured distance and do a pellet count inside a 30" circle,.....your recommendation on shells will be ingored, laughed at, discarded etc etc.
> 
> *THIS IS* the only way a persom knows what he is dealling with. All the comments about "hit hard, fell dead, fluttered away, yada yada is just witch craft with NO SCIENCE involved.
> 
> ...


hitting paper and hitting a flying duck are two different things...:bounce:

:rotfl:


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

Ahhh....the first person to "not get it". 

Thanks


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## Gilbert (May 25, 2004)

Timemachine said:


> Unless you post up a picture of the pattern *you* shot from *your* gun, at a measured distance and do a pellet count inside a 30" circle,.....your recommendation on shells will be ingored, laughed at, discarded etc etc.
> 
> *THIS IS* the only way a persom knows what he is dealling with. All the comments about "hit hard, fell dead, fluttered away, yada yada is just witch craft with NO SCIENCE involved.
> 
> ...


what's the point of this thread if you aren't going to share?


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

Timemachine said:


> Ahhh....the first person to "not get it".
> 
> Thanks


 Check that sarcasm meter old man.:help:


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

Gilbert said:


> what's the point of this thread if you aren't going to share?


Oh....i will eventually share but I'm building the excitement. Kinda like a pole dancer. Never take it ball off on the first dance!

No sarcasism intended. It's just that.....well....

"I don't know much but what I DO KNOW, I know extremely well".

Without sighting in the gun, the shooter has no idea of what the gun/shell combo is doing. "Sighting in" for shotgum means patterning the gun. EVERY shotgun, every shell has nuiances that need to be KNOWN. Patterning the shotgun is the SINGLE most important chore a duck hunter should do. After duck hunting and reloading for more than 34 years, it is unlikely that many here could compete with me at shotgunning. I grew up with guys like Bob Brister, Jess Briley, Joe Lagow etc etc..

If you wish to learn something, listen up. If not, that's fine too.


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

Timemachine said:


> Oh....i will eventually share but I'm building the excitement. Kinda like a pole dancer. Never take it ball off on the first dance!
> 
> No sarcasism intended. It's just that.....well....
> 
> ...


How does growing up with someone make yourself a better shot? :help:

I don't see everyone who grew up with Babe Ruth(closer to your time) in the hall of fame.


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## Spec-Rig.006 (Nov 2, 2007)

Expensive rich white-boy ammo, it works on ducks and geese at 45 - 55 yards, no problem. The goose photo was even worse, I figured I'd just post the blood rained decoys ...


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

WHOA....that first picture is a real kill shot. Ruined my lunch too.


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

Timemachine said:


> WHOA....that first picture is a real kill shot. Ruined my lunch too.


nah that's a cripple.


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## jkeithLSON (May 15, 2012)

*my results*

Posted this a couple of years ago on another forum.

I shoot a Benelli Supernova.
The shells I patterned were all 3" out of a factory MOD choke at 30ish yards, and here's a list of what i tried out.
(We walked off 40 yards first and were like holy **** we never try to shoot at ducks this far away.)

Kent #4s
Kent #2s
Rem. Shurshot #2s
Rem. Sportsman #4s
Fed. Speed Shok Waterfowl Load #3s
Winchester Xpert #2s
Winchester Xpert #4s

To my surprise,and probably a lot of yall's chagrin, Kent patterned the worst with my gun. I didn't even count the percentage because it was obvious others were better.

After I averaged it out, the Federal SS Waterfowl Load #3s shot 88%.
The Winchester Xpert #4s shot 83%.
The Remington Sportsman #4s also shot 83%, but I feel the pattern looked better than the Xperts.

I have the exact numbers of pellets and all that, I will post them if anybody wants. But my winner was the Federals.

HOWEVER, my buddy was patterning his Franchi, and had really bad patterns with everything but the Kents. So I let him have my couple of boxes.


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

jkeithLSON said:


> Posted this a couple of years ago on another forum.
> 
> I shoot a Benelli Supernova.
> The shells I patterned were all 3" out of a factory MOD choke at 30ish yards, and here's a list of what i tried out.
> ...


Thank You Sir!!! This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. One guns acceptance of a premium shell can be completely contrary to the results of another. Without testing, you could be shooting an expensive shell and not getting anything from it.

In Bob Bristers book " The Art of Shotgunning" (came out long ago and I stood beside from Bob himself on many test) he spent long days patterning not only static targets but also pulling targets behind his wife station wagon at different speeds and distance. I would somestimes cringe as I knew he was gonna hit the car. He brought a whole new light to shot gunning and the understanding of shotgun performance. That let folks like Jess Briley to start working with different AFTERMARKETchokes and bore conbinations. I was a machine tool engineer/designer and worked with Jess in 1980-thru 83 setting up machining operations for the variuos chokes that are now common place. Both of these titans of shotgunning rocked the shotgunning world.

Patterning was the ONLY way for performance to be judged when doing this kind of leading edge research.

I realize that this kind of data will fall on deaf ears but a few will act and at least try to use the knowlegde to their advantage.


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

Timemachine said:


> Thank You Sir!!! This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. One guns acceptance of a premium shell can be completely contrary to the results of another. Without testing, you could be shooting an expensive shell and not getting anything from it.
> 
> In Bob Bristers book " The Art of Shotgunning" (came out long ago and I stood beside from Bob himself on many test) he spent long days patterning not only static targets but also pulling targets behind his wife station wagon at different speeds and distance. I would somestimes cringe as I knew he was gonna hit the car. He brought a whole new light to shoot gunning and the understanding of shotgun performance. That let folks like Jess Briley to start working with different AFTERMARKETchokes and bore conbinations. I was a machine tool engineer/designer and worked with Jess in 1980-thru 83 setting up machining operations for the variuos chokes that are now common place. Both of these titans of shotgunning rocked the shotgunning world.
> 
> ...


Man you guys must be slow over there at big B...... lol


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## [email protected] (May 24, 2004)

Brister and Briley and patterning work with every load in every gun you own. 
*You nailed it Timemachine!*


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Brister and Briley and patterning work with every load in every gun you own.
> *You nailed it Timemachine!*


Buddy...THIS is an endorsement that makes me proud. Thanks!!! Getting old sucks, all i have left is to share the knowledge that was passed down to me.:work:


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## palmwad89 (Dec 9, 2008)

Timemachine, Why do you think it would be an unfair advantage ? You don't own the ducks. I've killed ducks for 55 years and have shared all kinds of points to make duck hunters better.....


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## Copano/Aransas (Dec 18, 2011)

Spec-Rig.006 said:


> Expensive rich white-boy ammo, it works on ducks and geese at 45 - 55 yards, no problem. The goose photo was even worse, I figured I'd just post the blood rained decoys ...


 I think he was using buck shot.:biggrin:


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## [email protected] (May 24, 2004)

Timemachine: We are the same age, I'll be 60 in a few weeks and Saturday marks my 48th duck season. WooHoo! 

Indeed getting old sucks, I just got my first set of hearing aids in September and the grouse cover in Ontario last week sent me to bed every night before 9:00pm, but I ain't giving up. I'm running harder than ever and learning new stuff every day. Don't mess with old guys. Ha!


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Timemachine: We are the same age, I'll be 60 in a few weeks and Saturday marks my 48th duck season. WooHoo!
> 
> Indeed getting old sucks, I just got my first set of hearing aids in September and the grouse cover in Ontario last week sent me to bed every night before 9:00pm, but I ain't giving up. I'm running harder than ever and learning new stuff every day. Don't mess with old guys. Ha!


If you get to a slow point, I have an 11 year old son I cn loan ya. Talk about a tiny tornado!! The little guy LOVES to hunt though. God smiled on us big time!! 60 in February and darn appreciative that I was this blessed!


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

palmwad89 said:


> ........... and have shared all kinds of points to make duck hunters better.....


Me too. Ain't it great.

If you have hunted 55 years of duck hunting, then you are considerable older than me. Perhaps "internet humor" is a little harder to sort thru. Hang in there.


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## JFolm (Apr 22, 2012)

I appreciate this info.


Time machine,
The confession booth is opening. What is your gun/barrel length/choke/shot preference for duck hunting???


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## Capt. Marcus Canales (Aug 25, 2005)

i thought getting or patterning a shotgun was common practice?


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## Spec-Rig.006 (Nov 2, 2007)

Copano/Aransas said:


> I think he was using buck shot.:biggrin:


NOPE ... ! 3" 3's ... I'll back off to 4's or 6's for teal and MIGHT shoot 2's at geese. Might ...


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## JFolm (Apr 22, 2012)

osoobsessed said:


> i thought getting or patterning a shotgun was common practice?


You'd be surprised...


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

Spec-Rig.006 said:


> NOPE ... ! 3" 3's ... I'll back off to 4's or 6's for teal and MIGHT shoot 2's at geese. Might ...


yea with lead you don't need that big of shot.


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

bayourat said:


> yea with lead you don't need that big of shot.


Now that's some funny stuff right there....don't matter how old you are!!


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## Copano/Aransas (Dec 18, 2011)

bayourat said:


> yea with lead you don't need that big of shot.


LOLOL.....Thats a good one.:biggrin:


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## Spec-Rig.006 (Nov 2, 2007)

bayourat said:


> yea with lead you don't need that big of shot.


Or when they're back stroking at 20 yards or less. Lead ... Do they make another kind of shot pellet?


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

JFolm said:


> I appreciate this info.
> 
> Time machine,
> The confession booth is opening. What is your gun/barrel length/choke/shot preference for duck hunting???


I like the #5 steel shot. I load 7/8 ounce which is still 200+ pellets. A light payload allows for "lightning" velocities of 1700+fps. Improved cylinder.

Since our group of dads almost always have our 10 year old kids with us, we like the duck to be in yo face close before we yell take 'em. The kids shoot 20 ga's with 3" #4 Kent at 1550 fps.

The #5 load will completely cover up a 36" circle at 25 yards. Makes my Old, shaky hand , trifocal wearing, skinny frail self look good cause you can darn near hit 'em shooting from the hip with that kind of pattern.
Down side is....any closer than that and the 5's will turn them to hamburger.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I was fortunate enough to get into shotgunning and bird hunting when I was pretty young. I've hunted and shot pigeons with Mr. Brister and learned to shoot skeet with Grant Ilseng whispering in my ear. If I didn't have a good supply of poster board to show these gentlemen with each shotgun I bought I heard about it.

But to me getting old is cool...you get to listen to the 20+ year olds who know everything 

Then again every now and then one of them teaches me something....hell I thought I knew everything. 

TH


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

Trouthunter said:


> But to me getting old is cool...you get to listen to the 20+ year olds who know everything
> 
> Then again every now and then one of them teaches me something....hell I thought I knew everything.
> 
> TH


LOL......I find myself asking for help (technos/computers/remote controls) from all thing....(gulp)....an 11 year old. How did they get so dang smart???

Hey TH....did you ever shoot at Charlies on South Main ?. One of my first jobs was a pull boy out there.


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## ak (May 6, 2012)

Seems you always know everything Fathertime apparently knows it all now and I bet 20 years ago he knew it then. I hope when Im old I get bored enough to shoot paper but for now. Its gig/fish Feb-Sept. bow hunt Oct Duck hunt Nov.-Jan. And work to pay for it all. 

Blackcloud over winchester experts all DAY!!!


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## SpottedAg (Jun 16, 2010)

Timemachine, what's your fav. goose combo. I automatically assume you're using Briley chokes


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

ak said:


> Its gig/fish Feb-Sept. bow hunt Oct Duck hunt Nov.-Jan. And work to pay for it all.


Times schedule: I also
Its gig/fish Feb-Sept....we go EVERY weekend 
Bow hunt all thru Oct
Duck hunt September, and then Nov.-Jan.

*PLUS:* 
Assistant Scout Master (1 night a week)
Father of an 11 year old (blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do, 2 nights a week)
Piano/Guitar (1 night a week)
Built our 3rd Bayboat (wood, epoxy etc etc)
Built our own layout boats
Dad/Son Kayak trips
Very Active with our Men's Ministry Group
Teaching son to play saxaphone
Building retirement home/ranch in Mexico

last but not least: Giving out free advise to others on how to do..you name it.

P.S. My wife is 16 years younger than me but is Very handicap physically so LOTS of home chore fall on my shoulders.


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## [email protected] (May 24, 2004)

Back in the day...

I had a paper route and the newspapers came in bundles wrapped in clean sheets (no ink) of newsprint. My dad bought me a 12 gauge Lee handloader, the kind you used a mallet to push the hulls through. I'd hammer out a box with a different powder or wad combination and my dad would say, "Go get a couple sheets of paper and let's see how you did." He was a stickler for pattern testing and I learned very early how much difference a small change can make in actual performance.


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Back in the day...
> 
> I had a paper route and the newspapers came in bundles wrapped in clean sheets (no ink) of newsprint. My dad bought me a 12 gauge Lee handloader, the kind you used a mallet to push the hulls through. I'd hammer out a box with a different powder or wad combination and my dad would say, "Go get a couple sheets of paper and let's see how you did." He was a stickler for pattern testing and I learned very early how much difference a small change can make in actual performance.


ME TOO...the LEE loader. I still have the adjustable shot dipper that came with the kit. I use it to scoop shot for every round I load!!! 48 year old tool. Dad would be proud and it make me feel good that every duck I shoot was with a reload using that scooper.... this stuff will make you tear up big time!


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

ak said:


> Blackcloud over winchester experts all DAY!!!


So.....have you patterned either one.....didn't think so.

*Pity since it is the subject of this thread*. Bashing me was not.

Bayourat is a fellow designer/friend of mind. He gets to bash me all he wants. You Sir, have NOT earned that priviledge.


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

SpottedAg said:


> Timemachine, what's your fav. goose combo. I automatically assume you're using Briley chokes


Yes Briley choke tubes, full set for the 870 and the Benelli Nova.


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

Timemachine said:


> So.....have you patterned either one.....didn't think so.
> 
> *Pity since it is the subject of this thread*. Bashing me was not.
> 
> Bayourat is a fellow designer/friend of mind. He gets to bash me all he wants. You Sir, have NOT earned that priviledge.


Bashing is a fine art.


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

bayourat said:


> Bashing is a fine art.


Just took you over the 10 million mark on green.

as for "ak"......he didn't fair so well.


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## ak (May 6, 2012)

I believe this is an open forum and also you started the thread to bash people who posted an opinion on shot. SO I will post and my results from field test in the blind and they speak for them self If your ever in matagorda stop by for a lesson.


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## Gilbert (May 25, 2004)

ak said:


> I believe this is an open forum and also you started the thread to bash people who posted an opinion on shot. SO I will post and my results from field test in the blind and they speak for them self If your ever in matagorda stop by for a lesson.


I'll be in matagorda all weekend. What kind of lesson are you teaching?


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## ak (May 6, 2012)

Timemachine said:


> Unless you post up a picture of the pattern *you* shot from *your* gun, at a measured distance and do a pellet count inside a 30" circle,.....your recommendation on shells will be ingored, laughed at, discarded etc etc.
> 
> *THIS IS* the only way a persom knows what he is dealling with. All the comments about "hit hard, fell dead, fluttered away, yada yada is just witch craft with NO SCIENCE involved.
> 
> ...


There was thread that had a guy asking about shot size I'm assuming your thread was in response to you reading that. Which is a bash. I see the negative "rep power" you gave me... What are you my internet bully now. Childish.


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## ak (May 6, 2012)

Gilbert said:


> I'll be in matagorda all weekend. What kind of lesson are you teaching?


Servin up a lesson on shootin em in tha lips.


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## Gilbert (May 25, 2004)

ak said:


> Servin up a lesson on shootin em in tha lips.


cool. this isn't public hunting is it?


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

I use ZombieMaster's SkyBuster 6660 which is a 36" screw-in choke that shoots 100% patterns at 300 yards...


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## ak (May 6, 2012)

Yup south shore most likely


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## Gilbert (May 25, 2004)

buy xperts so you can save your money and get a lease.


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

ak said:


> Seems you always know everything Fathertime apparently knows it all now and I bet 20 years ago he knew it then. I hope when Im old I get bored enough to shoot paper but for now. Its gig/fish Feb-Sept. bow hunt Oct Duck hunt Nov.-Jan. And work to pay for it all.
> 
> !!!





ak said:


> There was thread that had a guy asking about shot size I'm *assuming* your thread was in response to you reading that. Which is a bash. I see the negative "rep power" you gave me... What are you my internet bully now. Childish.


2nd post ) If I had something to say about THIS thread...I would have...plain and simple cause that's how I roll..

What did you hope to accomplish from your first post??. 
Was it to bash my age?? 
Was it cyberbulling?? 
Was it to bash the fact the I've been on this site for years?? 
Was it to boast how macho you are casue you're a "true" hunter. 
You grabbed the bull and got the horns and NOW.....we're all snickering.

Here's a rule to live by:

When you fight with an old guy, you can't win. There are only 2 results.
1) Old guy whips your ace and embarrases you in front of your friends.
2) You whip old guys ace and people look at you and say "What the flock is wrong with you picking on an old fool"

I'm pretty easy going. Shoot some pattern, post up the pictures and you will be welcome on any Forum -OR - stay on your present course and fade away like so many have. Your Choice!

Best of luck with the upcoming season I have no doubt you will have a great time. I will throw out a prayer to the man upstairs asking that you get to have that "Great Time" for as many decades as I have.

Love,
Jim


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

ak said:


> Servin up a lesson on shootin em in tha lips.


I will be looking forward to the pics/report monday, Mr. DuckSlayer.


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

AvianQuest said:


> I use ZombieMaster's SkyBuster 6660 which is a 36" screw-in choke that shoots 100% patterns at 300 yards...


I LOVE this THING!!!


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## ak (May 6, 2012)

bayourat said:


> I will be looking forward to the pics/report monday, Mr. DuckSlayer.


If I zero out Ill go home and crack one open and gaze at my past accomp.








But I wont zero. ^^ Sometimes waiting in line at mad island pays off.


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## the hook (Aug 8, 2011)

OK, I got a question and I want an answer...

If you have a shotshell shooting @ 1500fps then a shell @ 1300fps, @30yds how far behind the 1500 is the 1300?? This should be easy...

Now, how long(time) did it take that 1300 to "catch up" (in other words to the 30 yd mark)

Now, take the time difference and tell me how far a crossing bird went, in that time difference, that was doing 30mph.....

I already know, and want to see about the people that say switching shells causes missed birds


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

ak said:


> If I zero out Ill go home and crack one open and gaze at my past accomp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


true public hunters never post reports.


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## bayourat (Jan 7, 2005)

the hook said:


> OK, I got a question and I want an answer...
> 
> If you have a shotshell shooting @ 1500fps then a shell @ 1300fps, @30yds how far behind the 1500 is the 1300?? This should be easy...
> 
> ...


The argument isn't missing the bird.... it's knock down power and pattern consistency.


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## Copano/Aransas (Dec 18, 2011)

ak said:


> There was thread that had a guy asking about shot size I'm assuming your thread was in response to you reading that. Which is a bash. I see the negative "rep power" you gave me... What are you my internet bully now. Childish.


Thanks for all your advice Timemachine don't pay attention to the hater. Haters are gonna hate.


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

Copano/Aransas said:


> Thanks for all your advice Timemachine don't pay attention to the haters.


Pay attention????? Heck, I can barely remember him....sad3sm


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*If this were a rifle thread.....*

We would be hearing from all the folks using 223s and making neck shots.....i.e. the "its all about shot placement" folks. I guess if they ever duck hunted they might say something like: "All this patterning and load comparisons is bs. If you have your decoys and hunters situated right all shots will be incoming, feet down wings cupped at 15 yards":mpd:


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

Johnboat said:


> We would be hearing from all the folks using 223s and making neck shots.....i.e. the "its all about shot placement" folks. I guess if they ever duck hunted they might say something like: "All this patterning and load comparisons is bs. If you have your decoys and hunters situated right all shots will be incoming, feet down wings cupped at 15 yards":mpd:


With as many kids (little kids) as we have in the blind, you are absolutely right!!

*We have 9 and 10 year old kids shooting limits*. It really isn't that hard but it does take paying attention to detail, no moving and as you mentioned having your hunters situated right.

Good post!


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## marshhunter (Mar 20, 2008)

wing_buster87 said:


> Hey ak.. Go **** yourself pro! Don't get on a perfectly good thread and start talking **** and threatening to "teach a lesson" because I will drive to matagorda and call your bluff in a heartbeat.. I've drove further for a piece of ***, that's a cakewalk my friend ..


^this... hey bud when you go gimme a holler...I won't be too far behind ya... or better yet we can split gas!!

<KEEP CALM AND CHIVE ON!!> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk2


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*Brister's towed target*

I couldnt find an image of the trailer contraption online, but this I think is one of his towed targets to show shot stringing (40 yards at 40 MPH).


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

Johnboat said:


> I couldnt find an image of the trailer contraption online, but this I think is one of his towed targets (40 MPH).


You're gonna make me tear up. Old memories and such. Yes, this is a tow target. I have the book at home. If I can figure out how the scanner works, I'll post some up.


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

seems I've read somewhere that lead strings more so than steel... also that the plastic shot-cup wads now used help in reducing shot-stringing.


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

kweber said:


> seems I've read somewhere that lead strings more so than steel... also that the plastic shot-cup wads now used help in reducing shot-stringing.


plus with reloads, we are putting felt or cork spacer/disc in the wad. Helps reduce shot string. I never really worry about shot string for the same reasons a "The Hook" was eluding to in his post.


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## Johnboat (Jun 7, 2004)

*He autographed my copy*



Timemachine said:


> You're gonna make me tear up. Old memories and such. Yes, this is a tow target. I have the book at home.


I was at the Greater Houston Gun Club and had my book in the car. Someone said he is on field whatever. I walked out there and he signed it for me...his shooting buddies sort of ribbed him about it. But, my copy is signed


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

the hook said:


> OK, I got a question and I want an answer...
> 
> If you have a shotshell shooting @ 1500fps then a shell @ 1300fps, @30yds how far behind the 1500 is the 1300?? This should be easy...
> 
> ...


4"

(changed from 3")

That being said, the FPS is muzzle velocity... meaning that 1500 and 1300 fps is not consistent throughout its flight. Its slows down substantially the further it travels... meaning it would be more than 4 inches at POI. This is where you see the need to stick with one kind of shell in order to have consistent success.


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

Timemachine said:


> plus with reloads, we are putting felt or cork spacer/disc in the wad. Helps reduce shot string. I never really worry about shot string for the same reasons a "The Hook" was eluding to in his post.


I read you load 7/8oz #5, so I see why you pad the cup...
nice short shot column..
2 3/4 shells I presume?


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

kweber said:


> I read you load 7/8oz #5, so I see why you pad the cup...
> nice short shot column..
> 2 3/4 shells I presume?


I've loaded that same load in 3" hulls at 1,600 fps.......deadly!!!

English shooters are big believers in keeping shot strings as short as possible, even using guns chambered at only 2-1/4".

They refer to "Square Loads" which means the height of the shot column in the shell measures no more than the diameter of the shot column.

Really, to get the shortest possible shot string we should all be using 8 gauge shotguns with 1-3/4" chambers and shells loaded with 1 oz of shot.


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## the hook (Aug 8, 2011)

Anyone????....There are 3 answers there


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## [email protected] (May 24, 2004)

Bingo AvianQuest! Shot stringing. That's why the 16 and 28 gauges are recognized widely as "more efficient" than 20s and 12s. The woes of the 20 and 12 become even more apparent with heavy 3" lead loads. No better example exists than the patterning nuances of the .410 - but it is still a ton of fun on doves. Brister's book goes into great detail about this and the various fixes for it - shot buffers and better wads. His photos describe explicity the effects of shot stringing on the moving targets his wife pulled behind the station wagon. Everybody should own a copy!


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

the hook said:


> Anyone????....There are 3 answers there


I answered it above.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Wow what a crock above.. I never had any lessons, never met any of the big name shooters mentioned, and never re loaded shotgun shells. Learned by myself when I earned enough money to buy a shotgun and shells. Older than any of yall and probably have killed more ducks and geese than many folks but couldnt do it every day cuz I had had to work. Went through all the lead to steel stuff. You wont hear about me cuz I dont talk the stuff. Thats the way I like it. Yall have fun. Oh yes I did pattern guns and ammo.

Oh yeah I deer hunt now and shoot ear shots with 223. It is all about shot placement. Ha


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Shame you never met Grant Ilseng Charlie...he was a hoot. You never visited his sporting goods store? 

Time, no I never shot there. The only place I shot in Houston was at Greater Houston then later at American.

Shot a lot in San Antonio and in the Valley though.

TH


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

TH

I met Grant but really didnt know he shot shotguns.I visited his store. I have never shot at any "gun range' with shotguns, shot any real skeet or trap. Just someone throwing it with a hand thrower. Saying all that I am certainly not the best nor am I the worst shotgun shooter. I am done with this one.. 
Thanks


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

Timemachine said:


> If you wish to learn something, listen up. If not, that's fine too.


Is there a set time/date as to when you will reveal this info?


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## mudcatz71 (Jun 8, 2006)

I wanna learn i wanna learn. If i don't learn in the next five min. I am going to be with out your knowledge for the rest of my life. Its going to be all your fault.


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## Salty Dog (Jan 29, 2005)

Good grief...


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## JFolm (Apr 22, 2012)

Timemachine said:


> I like the #5 steel shot. I load 7/8 ounce which is still 200+ pellets. A light payload allows for "lightning" velocities of 1700+fps. Improved cylinder.
> 
> Since our group of dads almost always have our 10 year old kids with us, we like the duck to be in yo face close before we yell take 'em. The kids shoot 20 ga's with 3" #4 Kent at 1550 fps.
> 
> ...


So what does your #5's look like on a 35yd and a 45yd target?


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

JFolm said:


> So what does your #5's look like on a 35yd and a 45yd target?


I only pattern at 25 and 40yards. Pattern density is still good at 40yrds but I worry about velocity. If you use the 7/70 rule that chronagrph gurus recommend, it says you lose 10 ft per second every FOOT and threfore you set your chrony 7 ft fron the muzzle and add 70fps to the chrony reading to get muzzle velocity.
Therefore

40 yards = 120 ft x 10 = 1200 of velocity LOSS. start at 1700 - 1200 = 500 which is what is concidered MINIMUM velocity for anykind of penetration.

Thats where either pellet count OR larger shot with more kenetic energy come in. I use 2 #5's and then a #3 in my shot shell line up. And even though the #5 are wide open scatter blast at 25 yards, you control the #3 (184 pelllets) pattern to be usable at 40 yards by selecting the proper wad. KOWLEDGE of the wads is critical for controlling patterns.

Not saying these rules at cast in stone but you need to apply some kind of math and these are numbers i've relied on.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Timemachine said:


> I only pattern at 25 and 40yards. Pattern density is still good at 40yrds but I worry about velocity. If you use the 7/70 rule that chronagrph gurus recommend, it says you lose 10 ft per second every FOOT and threfore you set your chrony 7 ft fron the muzzle and add 70fps to the chrony reading to get muzzle velocity.
> Therefore
> 
> 40 yards = 120 ft x 10 = 1200 of velocity LOSS. start at 1700 - 1200 = 500 which is what is concidered MINIMUM velocity for anykind of penetration.
> ...


So at 30 yards, you've lost 900 FPS by POI? Did I do that calculation right?


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

justinsfa said:


> So at 30 yards, you've lost 900 FPS by POI? Did I do that calculation right?


Yep. But this rule only applied to steel. other heavier/ mo mass material , the loss will be less. Also onlt applied to ROUND pellet. Something like blindside which has all the aero dynamics of ...well...a box, the velocity loss will be much greater.


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## cgerace19 (Jul 17, 2008)

Timemachine, I would love to get together one day and pick your brains. 

I have patterned my 870 with Remington and Winchester shells. I have the targets and the distances and the specifics of each shell recorded. Haven't sat and counted pellets but I do shoot the Remington's because they had a more consistent pattern. I will go back and recheck though. However I used poster board so I will be counting pellets in a roughly 15" circle (or whatever size It amounts to). Anyway, great info in this thread.


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## wolffman73 (Nov 30, 2011)

Still waiting on the good stuff Timemachine....


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## Duckchasr (Apr 27, 2011)

*Factory loads*

Cut open some of your factory load. Winchester pellets are messed up they are different shapes and sizes. Federal, Estate, Remington and Kent all have nice round pellets. I've probaly killed more ducks with the little ol' Federal 2 3/4 in. 1 1/8 4's than any others. Mr. Brister just started the testing for steel shot when he wrote the book. Every shotgunner should read it. I would have loved to have met those guys I've read alot about them. Hey Timemachine give us some of your factory pattern results.:texasflag


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