# Cost sharing regs ?



## Koolero (Jul 12, 2006)

If somebody could pleaz post up a link to the site where I could see the regs on the legality of cost sharing I would sure appreciate it. Thanx


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

I know this is not a link, but I doubt they would be that tough on a "true" cost sharing trip. 


But I recall you had to at least have the Merchant Marine License (aka "Captain" License) to receive any kind of money for those onboard. So I think it is a Coast Guard rule...I'd start my search on their web site. If their site is anything like the other federal sites it will be tough to find. 

You might be better off e-mailing or calling them.


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## Piledriver (May 23, 2007)

This topic comes up on here from time to time. I believe the catch 22 here is in the State of Texas if you take money from anyone for the trip you are acting as a guide, in order to be a guide in Texas you must have your USCG Captain's license. So the USGC really does not have anything do with the issue of cost sharing it is on the State side.

Most treat is as a none issue, as IMHO you would really have to pess the Game Warden off for them to cite you.

However with that said and the fact I have bought a larger boat that I will be needing a crew for from time to time. I have thought about a loop hole, which might be to have limited one day partnership agreement, thus everyone would have a stake in this temporary company which then leases the boat for a dollar and the limited partneship is then responsible for costs of the trip. Any thoughts?


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

On December 20, 1993 the President signed the Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993 (public law 103-206), changing the legal requirements for passenger and charter operations. The act establishes for the first time the definition of passenger for hire and requires many vessels operating under bareboat charter to be inspected by the Coast Guard as commercial passenger vessels. The law also changes the inspection requirements for certain vessels over 100 gross tons. The new law has relaxed the prior strict treatment of situations where a guest provided food or chipped in for expenses. Previous law treated such such guests as passengers, requiring operator licenses and possibly vessel inspection.

In more simple terms, it's no different that giving your buddy gas money for your share of the ride into work. You don't need any special license or permit to do that, nor do you need one to do the same thing on your privately owned boat.


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Why bother with any stinking regulations? Just deal in cash and be discrete. If asked by Johnny Law, just say "Goober here is taking us fishing for FREE." 

I mean come on, some folks pool their money to take an RV on a long road trip. You have to with the price of gas and diesel. Does that mean you need somebody with a commercial "chauffer" drivers license? Yup! But who cares?

Remember, the difference between recreational and commercial is that the recreational fisherman has no expectation of making a profit, such as by selling a scheduled or for-hire service or selling caught fish. 

The problem is if you start looking like a service ... and some local charter boy gets mad for taking away business and files a complaint. Stick with the Goober story, I'm telling ya.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

here's the actual verbage

Quote:
DESCRIPTION - Section 507 amends 46 U.S.C. 2101 by adding a definition of the term "consideration." Although this term was used in the prior definition of a "passenger," it was not previously defined by statute. Generally, some tangible amount of worth exchanged for carriage on a vessel such as payment, exchange of goods or a promise of performance is required. *"Consideration" does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of a voyage.* Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes is not included as exchange of consideration.

and here's a link to the entire piece of law

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/nvic/7_94/n7-94.htm


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

I've looked at all that is available and I can tell you it is not well understood. However, it is not complicated, either. I'll see if I can post the link. 
But here is the deal.

If consideration (payment, material) flows to the owner of the boat, directly or indirectly AS A CONDITION OF CARRIAGE, it is a charter. State or federal.

In some clarifying advisory material in the early nineties, indicates that VOLUNTARY contributions (NOT a condition of carriage) to help defray costs are legal and no problem.

Here's how I (and to date, the LEOs I've spoken with) interpret that. If there is a preset amount, percent, etc. AGREED UPON or RENDERED prior to the trip, that's a condition of carriage and it's a charter. It's not "voluntary" if you tell a guy, you can go for half or a third of the fuel bill. On the other hand, after you get back to the dock your guests may contribute all they want to, even more than direct operating costs.

"*Most treat is as a none issue, as IMHO you would really have to pess the Game Warden off for them to cite you." *
I don't think it's a "non issue". I think it's difficult to make a case against. But there are a number of unlicensed and unpermitted charter operators operating "gas money trips" and I know for a fact that TPWD, NMFS, and most legitimate and properly permitted and licensed charter boat operaters would love to see them caught and prosecuted. Then you have sponsored tournament teams, fishing clubs, etc. which may either be legitimate, or scams to run illegal charters.

I don't think hardly anyone wants to hurt guys who are legitimately sharing expenses. Lots of people want to hurt illegal charter operators. And how you define it is the key.

I run gas money trips. A set amount is never discussed in advance. I only take people who "get it", mostly friends, or friends of friends and I am almost always offered MORE when we get back than I accept. If we ever get stopped and NMFS Special Agent Matt takes one of my friends to the front of the boat and puts the third degree on him or her, they will not tell him they are expected to pay, or have paid, so much for the trip. Few people on this board seem to care about it, but citations have been issued and big fines paid on this issue.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

I would suggest printing the link out I posted and carrying a copy of it on the boat if you are really concerned about it. I do exactly that with current fishing regs, and several other documents. They all stay in a folder and I can produce proof of compliance quite easily. Put it in there with your HMS permit, your documentation stuff, ect. I have found that having things in writing eliminates all guesswork on things like this. I added 2 new links up top for future reference, as this and fishing regs come up quite a bit.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Piledriver said:


> However with that said and the fact I have bought a larger boat that I will be needing a crew for from time to time. I have thought about a loop hole, which might be to have limited one day partnership agreement, thus everyone would have a stake in this temporary company which then leases the boat for a dollar and the limited partneship is then responsible for costs of the trip. Any thoughts?


Enforcement has not been very vigorous here in Texas, I don't know if it's worth worrying about. But they have done a fair amount of enforcing in Fl. The key (not a loophole) is how "voluntary contribution" and "condition of carriage" are defined. A condition of carriage means that I must pay a certain amount or you don't take me fishing. This makes it a charter. Payment is not voluntary, but conditional.

A voluntary contribution is just that. Completely voluntary and NOT a condition of taking the person fishing. Which means they do not OWE you anything at the end of the trip. Like church. You aren't charged admission to go to church. The plate is passed. If you want to contribute you do. If you don't you don't. That is voluntary. If the usher stops you at the door and tells you you must put at least $20 in the plate when it comes around, and you agree, then it is not voluntary.


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## Crossroads (May 21, 2004)

This is a non-issue, I don't know why it keeps coming up.


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## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Swells said:


> Remember, the difference between recreational and commercial is that the recreational fisherman has no expectation of making a profit, such as by selling a scheduled or for-hire service or selling caught fish.


I agree with you crossroads, but the person asking might not have seen the prior posts. Sammie, no one was talking about making a profit. They were asking about cost sharing.


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## mahiseeker (Jan 26, 2006)

Yep. this keeps coming up. Plain & simple, if you want to go out fishing & don't have your own boat, then be prepared to cough up expense money. Nothings free these days, (unless you're mommy & daddy keep giving you everything). If you want to fish, cough it up, or stay home & read about 2cooler fishing trips at home. Then you can daydream what it's like on an offshore trip. Jeez people, wake up & smell the sea breeze. Boats use fuel, & fuel costs money, not including boat payments, maintenance, safety gear, etc..... Getting tired of posts from newbies wanting a free ride.


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Crossroads said:


> This is a non-issue, I don't know why it keeps coming up.


Right, I'd be more worried about which half of the amberjack you get to keep.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Crossroads said:


> This is a non-issue, I don't know why it keeps coming up.


Maybe!

If NMFS does tighten up enforcement you could very easily end up with a ticket....

Think about it...the NMFS agent takes your BIL to the front of the boat and asks him how much the trip is and he tells him, "oh...it normally costs me $100 to go with him." Presto you are considered a charter...

They will do what ever they can to trip up one of your riders if they think something is up. It would be very easy for one to use the wrong discription of what going on, that could legally be taken out of true context and used against you.

Remember those guys that were questioned heavily because the boat name had the word "Team" in it? It would be very easy to trip up a friend of a friend who was unsuspecting of that line of questioning. If he knows he will have to pay something at the end of the day...one wrong word and they could cite you.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Well the reason it is important is that some guys here depend on crew contributions to defray fishing costs. There is nothing wrong with that and I would hate to see any legitimate recs who share costs *voluntarily *get in trouble.

But there is a new sherrif in town as of this summer, and illegal (unpermitted, unlicensed) charter operators are going to be a target for enforcement. When they are stopped, I guarantee you every one will claim to be a "gas money" rec.


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## spitfire (Jan 2, 2007)

Does anybody remember that don't ask don't tell policy that started back with the Clinton administration?


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## Guppie (Mar 29, 2006)

I agree that this is a non-issue for those that split expenses evenly at the end of the trip. I think where it gets a little fuzzy is when someone posts up that they are going fishing and ask for crew and then tell them how much it will cost in advance. In my mind, this is where you could run the risk of running an illegal charter. My .02.

Guppie


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## Tiny (Dec 19, 2006)

These days with the prices of fuel and so on, unless you are rich, you ain't fishing without some other finances for the trip..

I have taken people fishing before when they asked.. "hey, If I pay for everything, can you take me and so-n-so fishing?" I say sure, you wanna pay for bait, ice, drinks and gas no problem... I did pay for the boat..

I don't see what the issue is and why this subject comes up every other week..

There ain't nothing against the law about sharing..

Just make sure the people you take understand that you are not a licensed guide, and will not accept any money for payment of the trip, and if stopped by a LEO..
"We are just friends on a trip that are going to split the costs" and "I have no Idea what WE will spend until WE fill the boat up with gas..."


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## mahiseeker (Jan 26, 2006)

Roger that tiny! By the way tiny, we will make it out on a trip together someday.


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## Ernest (May 21, 2004)

I would wager the recent "Team" boat experience will turn out to be a relative isolated event. I was stopped 1st weekend of snapper, and bigger than Dallas it says on one of my rear windows, in clear view of the GW, "Deckhand Works for Tips." 

No questions about the charter status of the vessel, no inspection of the HMS documents. Instead, the guy treated me very professionally, did not try to grill any of the folks on the boat, checked out the catch and asked to be shown some life jackets. 

Very cool, very nice, very professional. All in all, a good experience for me.


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## Koolero (Jul 12, 2006)

Thanxs to all for the replys, especially the link up top. Its not a non-issues if your the one getting a ticket. I just resently passed the Captains exam through Mariners school and am now waiting for the CG to do there part with all the paper work. I looked for the prior threads but could not find them and gave up after a couple of days serching NMFS, TPWL an NOAA. I am also one of those ARSEZ who cant afford my boat or to go out more than a couple times a month unless my buddies decide they want to help with "gas", But #%^&#@ she looks purtty sittin in the slip.


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## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Captn C said:


> Maybe!
> 
> If NMFS does tighten up enforcement you could very easily end up with a ticket....
> 
> ...


Did someone not read Mont's post on page 1? It is post #4.


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## Piledriver (May 23, 2007)

As I posted before, I agree with Mont, as there isnt an issue on the Federal side for cost sharing. However on the State it is different as the reg is:

*Fishing Guide License*

*Required for any person who for compensation, accompanies, assists, or transports any person engaged in fishing in the waters of the state.*


$125 for operating as a resident or non-resident fishing guide in the fresh waters of the state. (Type 600 Resident; Type 700 Non-Resident)
$200 for operating as a resident fishing guide in all public waters of Texas (salt water only or both salt and fresh water) (Type 610 Resident)
$1,000 for operating as a non-resident fishing guide in all public waters of Texas (salt water only or both salt and fresh water) (Type 710 Non-Resident).
*All-Water fishing guide license available only at TPWD Law Enforcement Offices. Freshwater fishing guide licenses available at any location where licenses are sold.*

A vessel operator's license is required from the U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) to carry passengers for hire on waters designated as navigable by the USCG. It is the operator's responsibility to assure compliance with USCG regulations. *No person operating a vessel or boat as a fishing guide on or in the salt waters of this state may be issued a Fishing Guide License unless the person presents documentation to the license deputy that the applicant possesses a valid and appropriate U.S. Coast Guard Operator's License.* For additional information, contact the USCG Regional Examination Center in Houston, TX at (713) 948-3350.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Snap Draggin said:


> Did someone not read Mont's post on page 1? It is post #4.


Of course I did! Looks like someone didn't read post #7 though!

Quoting Levelwind...
"If consideration (payment, material) flows to the owner of the boat, directly or indirectly AS A CONDITION OF CARRIAGE, it is a charter. State or federal.

In some clarifying advisory material in the early nineties, indicates that VOLUNTARY contributions (NOT a condition of carriage) to help defray costs are legal and no problem.

Here's how I (and to date, the LEOs I've spoken with) interpret that. If there is a preset amount, percent, etc. AGREED UPON or RENDERED prior to the trip, that's a condition of carriage and it's a charter. It's not "voluntary" if you tell a guy, you can go for half or a third of the fuel bill. On the other hand, after you get back to the dock your guests may contribute all they want to, even more than direct operating costs."

If a NMFS man steps on your boat and asks one of your guests if he expects to pay you for the trip....see above in red!

Thats all I was trying to make you understand...I take buddies all the time and they know it's going to cost them something when we hit the docks. The right question answered the wrong way and it's a charter. No biggy on my boat I have all the proper paper work, but do you?

Is it going to happen, I doubt it, can it happen? You bet your ***** it could.

The point to take away from all this is to make sure your crew understands the issue. If...I said "if" earlier too if you go back and check...if NMFS (not TP&W) decides to run the hard line on recs some people are going to be getting tickets.


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## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Captn C said:


> Of course I did! Looks like someone didn't read post #7 though!
> 
> The point to take away from all this is to make sure your crew understands the issue. If...I said "if" earlier too if you go back and check...if NMFS (not TP&W) decides to run the hard line on recs some people are going to be getting tickets.


I believe Mont covered federal waters which NMFS enforces. I got this from the TP&WD site. I then called Austin for clarification about compensation. They told me that compensation meant that a person makes a profit from taking people fishing, and not friends sharing the cost of fuel, bait, ice etc.

*All Water Fishing Guide​*​​​(available only at TPWD Law Enforcement Offices) *Resident *(Type 610)*..........................$200 Non-resident *(Type 710) *..............$1,000 *Required for any person who for *compensation*, accompanies, assists or transports any person engaged in fishing in the salt waters or both salt and fresh waters of the state. A vessel license is required from the U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) to carry passengers for hire on waters designated as navigable by the USCG. It is the operator's responsibility to assure compliance with USCG regulations. For additional information, contact the USCG Regional Examination Center in Houston at (713) 948-3350. *NOTE: NO PERSON operating a vessel or boat as a fishing guide on or in the salt waters of this state may be issued a Fishing Guide license unless the person presents documentation to the license agent that the applicant possesses a valid and appropriate U.S. Coast Guard Operator's License.
*​*
*


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

buddies never pay to go fishing, they pay to get home....................


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## Bozo (Jun 16, 2004)

I fish tournaments in freshwater that completely falls under the state statutes. I inquired about what "compenstation" means with the head dude at the regional office on the Sam Houston Tollway in person. His response was "compensation means anything taken by whether for profit or not. It could be gas, bait, a sandwich or whatever. Compensation does not mean for profit."

So what we did was form a Texas Unincorporated non profit association to pool our money for tournament expenses.

It's just a simple document that you don't even have to have notorized. Three people must sign it but, it can govern the operation of a "club" that will oversee the expenses. Basically, when you pay the shared expenses, you pay the association established and not the individual supplying the boat.

It's all symantics but, we decided to play it safe rather than sorry even if the law isn't enforced. If you have won a big tournament payout and are taking a polygraph test and they ask you if you broke any state laws during the tournament and a hint of a guilt ebbs in and effects the test because of a pissant rule like that you have a slight question in your mind about, it would really get my goat to fail the thing and be labeled a cheat and barred from competition over something as stupid as that. I'm an honest guy and I know I'd be the one to slip up on a question like that and cause a problem over a non-issue.

Now, I can fully state that I haven't with a perfectly clear mind.

Info on The Texas Uniform Unincorporated Nonprofit Association Act:

http://www.sos.state.tx.us/corp/forms/filingguide/html/tuna.htm


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## Crossroads (May 21, 2004)

There is absolutely no way I can be confused or accused of being a fishing guide or charter service. Fishing guides and charters come to the docks with limits of fish, that generally eliminates me from contention. LOL


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## 007 (Mar 11, 2008)

That's funny!!



Crossroads said:


> There is absolutely no way I can be confused or accused of being a fishing guide or charter service. Fishing guides and charters come to the docks with limits of fish, that generally eliminates me from contention. LOL


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Well 007 I can't be accused of being a charter boy even on a good day! 

But that idea to form a non-profit corporation or LLC does make a bunch of sense. The whole idea is to reduce liabilities, such as these picky rules about what is "for hire." It can work to bring down fuel costs as well - but the off-road tax rebate has to go the the company, an interesting twist. Plus if you get sued, the soo-ey has to go for the corporation and cannot seize your personal house, boat, car, or bank accounts. Nice.


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## 007 (Mar 11, 2008)

Sammie, you don't have to be "for hire" or a company to get the offroad tax rebate!



Swells said:


> Well 007 I can't be accused of being a charter boy even on a good day!
> 
> But that idea to form a non-profit corporation or LLC does make a bunch of sense. The whole idea is to reduce liabilities, such as these picky rules about what is "for hire." It can work to bring down fuel costs as well - but the off-road tax rebate has to go the the company, an interesting twist. Plus if you get sued, the soo-ey has to go for the corporation and cannot seize your personal house, boat, car, or bank accounts. Nice.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

I wasn't even going to bring that up, since profit margin or lack thereof have absolutely NOTHING to do with the definition of _for hire_.

Charter captains in other parts of the country frequently run trips for "breakeven" prices in order to stay on the fish. That's a business consideration and not a legal one. BUT, if you charge your buddies for gas and then send in for the tax credit at the end of the year, you could actually be realizing income from the trip.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

Snap Draggin said:


> I believe Mont covered federal waters which NMFS enforces. I got this from the TP&WD site. I then called Austin for clarification about compensation. They told me that compensation meant that a person makes a profit from taking people fishing, and not friends sharing the cost of fuel, bait, ice etc.
> 
> *All Water Fishing Guide​*​​​(available only at TPWD Law Enforcement Offices) *Resident *(Type 610)*..........................$200 Non-resident *(Type 710) *..............$1,000 *Required for any person who for *compensation*, accompanies, assists or transports any person engaged in fishing in the salt waters or both salt and fresh waters of the state. A vessel license is required from the U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) to carry passengers for hire on waters designated as navigable by the USCG. It is the operator's responsibility to assure compliance with USCG regulations. For additional information, contact the USCG Regional Examination Center in Houston at (713) 948-3350. *NOTE: NO PERSON operating a vessel or boat as a fishing guide on or in the salt waters of this state may be issued a Fishing Guide license unless the person presents documentation to the license agent that the applicant possesses a valid and appropriate U.S. Coast Guard Operator's License.*
> 
> ...


snap,
I guess I'm stupider than I thought...can you point out to me where I said Texas Parks and Wildlife are the one who will cite you and they are the ones are out to enforce this?

Sorry! I also forgot about the "Mont said so" law that keeps NMFS at bay if they stop you and your crew tells the NMFS officer that have to pay you for their trip...thanks for straighting me out on this issue.


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

mwb007 said:


> Sammie, you don't have to be "for hire" or a company to get the offroad tax rebate!


Roger that - I meant if your company pools together gas money for recreational or tournament activities, you might think about running the rebate through the company name. I wanna be "Whiskey Line Non-Profit." Nice little tax shelter, too, and the buzz ain't bad.


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## Bozo (Jun 16, 2004)

Here is the form we used. All you need is 3 people to say that you are in it for the same reason. Our reason was social, conservation, and sporting events. That's it. You now have an unincorporated non profit association.*

Just replace the space in between the <> with your info and and get the signatures of 2 of your fishing buds and that's it. All that fish don't need to sign it as long as you make them a member of the association. That could mean that you establish a membership rule such as " all who fish with me are a member of the association". 
*​​*ARTICLES OF ASSOCIATION*​ *OF THE*​ *<Association Name> Association - A Texas Uniform Unincorporated Nonprofit Association*

The undersigned, acting as organizers, do hereby adopt the following Articles of Association for the <Association Name> Association. The association shall operate under the rules promulgated by the Texas Uniform Unincorporated Nonprofit Association Act of 2006.

*ARTICLE I*​ The name of the association is *<Name of Asscociation>*.

*ARTICLE II*

The association is an unincorporated nonprofit association and will abide by and operate as such as indicated in the Texas Business Organizations Code Chapter 252.

*ARTICLE III*

The period of its duration is perpetual.

*ARTICLE IV*

Subject to the provisions of the Act, the corporation is organized and shall operate for <athletic, wildlife conservation and social purposes>.

*ARTICLE V*

The street address of the initial registered office of the association is <Association mailing address> and the name of its initial registered agent at such address is <Name of founding agent; that means your given name>

*ARTICLE VI*​ The direction and management of the affairs of the association and the control and disposition of its properties and funds shall be vested in a Board of Directors composed of such number of persons, not less than three (3). Until changed by the bylaws the original number of directors shall be three (3) and the bylaws must maintain an odd number of board members if future increases are voted on. The directors shall continue to serve until their successors are selected in the manner provided in the bylaws of the association. The names and residences of the persons who shall serve as directors of the corporation until their successors are duly elected and qualified are as follows:

*Name* *Address*

Name #1

Name #2

Name #3

*ARTICLE VII*​ The association shall have members. All members will have 1 vote. All members of the Board of Directors shall be members of the Association. Board of Directors position does not have an additional beyond the normal member vote unless there is a tie. To resolve a tie, all board members will receive an additional vote to break the tie.

*ARTICLE VIII*

The initial bylaws of the association shall be adopted by its Board of Directors, and the power to amend or repeal the bylaws or adopt new bylaws shall be vested in the Board of Directors or other means adopted by future bylaw amendments.

*ARTICLE IX*

The names and street or post office addresses of the organizers are:

Name and address #1

Name and address #2

Name and address #3

EXECUTED BY THE UNDERSIGNED ORGANIZERS on this < > day of < >, 2008.

____________________________________

Signature of < >

___________________________________

Signature of < >

___________________________________

Signature of < >


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## 007 (Mar 11, 2008)

Levelwind, What if I had a 200 gal. fuel tank of offroad diesel in my barn for my tractor to mow the back 40? Would I be getting income for mowing my property if I filed for the rebate?



Levelwind said:


> I wasn't even going to bring that up, since profit margin or lack thereof have absolutely NOTHING to do with the definition of _for hire_.
> 
> Charter captains in other parts of the country frequently run trips for "breakeven" prices in order to stay on the fish. That's a business consideration and not a legal one. BUT, if you charge your buddies for gas and then send in for the tax credit at the end of the year, you could actually be realizing income from the trip.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

mwb007 said:


> Levelwind, What if I had a 200 gal. fuel tank of offroad diesel in my barn for my tractor to mow the back 40? Would I be getting income for mowing my property?


HUH?

No, but if you let your neighbors drive the tractor and charged them the gas station pump price for the diesel they used, you'd be realizing income.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

mwb007 said:


> Levelwind, What if I had a 200 gal. fuel tank of offroad diesel in my barn for my tractor to mow the back 40? Would I be getting income for mowing my property?


One question 007?

Is that "back 40" inside or outside of the state water 9nm line?

"back 40" and "car pools" are not regulated by NOAA...but fishing outside 9nm is....personally I think it's a bit different.


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## 007 (Mar 11, 2008)

There are a couple of junk cars just inside the fence line! I guess that would be my "Back 40 Great Barrier Reef" inside my "state" yard.











Captn C said:


> One question 007?
> 
> Is that "back 40" inside or outside of the state water 9nm line?
> 
> "back 40" and "car pools" are not regulated by NOAA...but fishing outside 9nm is....personally I think it's a bit different.


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## Captn C (May 21, 2004)

mwb007 said:


> There are a couple of junk cars just inside the fence line! I guess that would be my "Back 40 Great Barrier Reef" inside my "state" yard.


PM me the lat/lons...if this wind doesn't lay soon it might where we fish on my next trip!









Thanks! LOL


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Many farms and ranches claim HUGE amounts of gasoline and diesel and yes, they send in the number of gallons for a Texas Comptroller rebate for off-road fuels. It doesn't matter how you use it - you could be having bonfires for all they care.


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## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Captn C said:


> snap,
> I guess I'm stupider than I thought...can you point out to me where I said Texas Parks and Wildlife are the one who will cite you and they are the ones are out to enforce this?
> 
> Sorry! I also forgot about the "Mont said so" law that keeps NMFS at bay if they stop you and your crew tells the NMFS officer that have to pay you for their trip...thanks for straighting me out on this issue.


No, Mont posted the law, and you said it not me.


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Sorry my bad - the fuel rebate program has nothing to do with the fed and state rules about for-hire fishing. Fed rules seem to allow it no problem, as Mont indicated. State rules are more stringent, even to the point of giving the Captain a "ham sandwich." 

In order to get to Fed waters you have to cross Texas waters, right?

The upshot is that the Texas game wardens won't write a ticket unless they really have a case, and could care less if you go to the bar after a trip and settle the costs for fuel, ice, and bait. Just like any cop, they have to be willing to defend their ticket in a court of law. The four GW's I know down here in SPI know who works the waterfront and is a charter captain, versus the private rec folks. They're more into BWI, fish piracy, drugs, illegal netting, and all that good stuff. They also have to enforce hunting laws on dry land.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Snap Draggin said:


> No, Mont posted the law, and you said it not me.





Swells said:


> Sorry my bad - the fuel rebate program has nothing to do with the fed and state rules about for-hire fishing. Fed rules seem to allow it no problem, as Mont indicated. State rules are more stringent, even to the point of giving the Captain a "ham sandwich."
> 
> In order to get to Fed waters you have to cross Texas waters, right?
> 
> The upshot is that the Texas game wardens won't write a ticket unless they really have a case, and could care less if you go to the bar after a trip and settle the costs for fuel, ice, and bait. Just like any cop, they have to be willing to defend their ticket in a court of law. The four GW's I know down here in SPI know who works the waterfront and is a charter captain, versus the private rec folks. They're more into BWI, fish piracy, drugs, illegal netting, and all that good stuff. They also have to enforce hunting laws on dry land.


I guess if you don't want to get it you can refuse to get it, and cling to the clarification in the '93 act as your justification if you want to.

BUT, Mont did not post a law. He posted an internal advisory bulletin for USCG personnel explaining how to enforce, and what changes occurred with the law in the 93 act.

And it DID help clear up confusion and provides SOME help to the boater who shares expenses with his passengers. PRIOR to the act, ANY exchange of monies, etc., could have been and sometimes was, considered payment and made the donating person a passenger for hire.

However, it did NOT change the basic intent and language of the regulation. I consider that it really was clarifying language, since not all agencies, LEOS, administrative law judges considered voluntary contributions to be "consideration". But some did, there was little consistency.

Now, however, the question revolves around what is voluntary and what is a condition of carriage. I have discussed that above and it is absolutely the way that the law looks at it. Guaranteed.

Snap you either talked to a poorly informed person in "austin" or something was lost in translation. Whether a person makes a profit or not does not define a business. That's about HOW WELL you run your business.

The federal government went to a lot of work and trouble to implement a moratorium on for hire operations for reef fish and coastal pelagics. It is a closed fishery. They employ a number of people in the permits office to keep up with it. They also get some revenue for the permits.

The State of Texas gets $200 for every licensed fishing guide in state waters, unless he's an out of stater, in which case they get $700.

If you do not believe that BOTH entities are VERY serious about controlling illegal charter operators, of which there are many on this end of the coast, you are mistaken. They are. However, it is a fairly difficult case to prove and with enforcement overall being very thin, it hasn't been enforced very vigorously. *That is changing with all the controversy AND all the RESTRICTIONS on permitted charter boats versus recs *(permitted boats cannot keep capts. and deckhands limits, must have turtle handling equipt., will NOT be able to keep state limits in state waters, etc.).

TPWD AND NMFS are looking to bust some illegal charter operators this year and these will NOT be slap on the wrist, like an undersize fish, violations (money is involved). They will be serious.

The law still defines a passenger for hire as someone whose payment or consideration is a *condition of carriage*. That has always been the legal test and still is. If you wouldn't take the person for free, his or her contribution is *not voluntary and *you are technically operating a charter in the eyes of the law.

Just be careful and be smart.


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## Bozo (Jun 16, 2004)

^^^

Yup. and with the dwendling snapper allocation, the legal charter Captn's will start reporting "pre-negotiated donations" to the authorities just like folks squawk about some dude just trying to feed by catching an undersized trout or a couple extra flounder in the fall run. With the down turn in the ecconomy and the lower numbers of folks willing to pay a full service guide, they will have to start putting a stop to illegal charters to protect their income.

When it gets right down to it, whether they enforce a law or not doesn't make it legal.


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

OK, so we're back to ground zero. For all the guidance and practicalities of the matter, if you pay a captain some money for an offshore trip, you're a charter. However, with the fuel prices so high, few can get outside unless they have a crew willing to throw down on the fuel expenses.

So we got a whole new underground economy, right? That doesn't make me feel good because except for a few beers here and there, I'm a law-abiding citizen. Now I'm in the same category as a drug smuggler, poacher, illegal charter scam operator, or something evil like that. It just ain't right.

I picked the wrong day to give up alcohol ...


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Swells said:


> OK, so we're back to ground zero. For all the guidance and practicalities of the matter, if you pay a captain some money for an offshore trip, you're a charter. However, with the fuel prices so high, few can get outside unless they have a crew willing to throw down on the fuel expenses.
> 
> So we got a whole new underground economy, right? That doesn't make me feel good because except for a few beers here and there, I'm a law-abiding citizen. Now I'm in the same category as a drug smuggler, poacher, illegal charter scam operator, or something evil like that. It just ain't right.
> 
> I picked the wrong day to give up alcohol ...


It also just ain't right that some operators try to do things right, with permits, insurance, licensed captains, turtle handling BS, no keeping their limits, no keeping state limits even when fishing state waters, and have to grit their teeth when the outlaws blow past them with and grin.

The law hasn't changed and nobody I know wants true recreational fishermen not to be able to split expenses with his buds these days. Those won't be the people LE is LOOKING for. But it could be the people that get caught up in it.

It's really easy. Do how I do. NO prior arrangements and when we get back to the dock if my guests want to chip in (after we have refueled, etc.) I will graciously accept. If they don't they don't. The people that I invite, it ain't an issue. And sometimes I want to treat, but those days are getting fewer nowadays.

Not really a whole lot different than a charter operator getting stiffed or getting a bad check, etc.


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## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Levelwind said:


> And it DID help clear up confusion and provides SOME help to the boater who shares expenses with his passengers. *PRIOR to the act, ANY exchange of monies, etc., could have been and sometimes was, considered payment and made the donating person a passenger for hire. *
> 
> Just be careful and be smart.


Well that clears everything up as far as I am concerned. When we go out in my boat I pay for everything up front including the gas when we get back. I always fill my boat back up immediately on the way home. My boat leaves the driveway full and it returns full. That way everyone pays for the fuel used for that trip. I keep all receipts and everyone pays their portion AFTER we are done fishing. If any officer were to question anyone on my vessel their answers would all be the same. We divide up all costs of the trip equally among everyone, and that I pay for everything up front. That is always how I do it, therefore it is a non issue. Isn't that the definition of cost sharing? Thank you for clearing that up for me.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

I'd say you are pretty safe, Snap. The only thing to watch is pre-arrangement. As I keep emphasizing, that "condition of carriage" language is what I fear will trip someone up. People know what is right. You just don't want anyone telling special agent Matt that you agreed in advance to split the fuel bill equally. The "in advance" part makes it a *consideration of carriage*, no longer voluntary.

When I spoke of the 'act" which you highlighted I meant the legislation that was passed in '93.


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## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

:headknock Now I am confused. All this legal mumbo jumbo is driving me nuts. I guess it would be in my best interest to either read all 1,367,283 pages of the law, or carry an attorney on board to either speak for us, or tell us what to say.


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## Donor (Mar 13, 2007)

When taking a trip offshore (or inshore for that matter), you should (as a responsible adult) expect to share in costs equally with everyone else. Period. 

It takes gas & oil to run a boat, not to mention boat payments to keep the thing, maintanence costs to keep it up (gets expensive quick!) and costs to moor or to dry-stack.....Not to mention the fact that the owner(s) are up way earlier than everyone else getting the boat ready for the trip and that person spends their entire day driving you around so that you can hit 'all the good spots' while you're out. 

...... sharing the cost of bait, oil and gas is MORE than fair.... and in some instances, if the owner/driver dosen't get to throw a line in all day while out, they should be exempt from the division of costs per person for the total amount. 

I would think that they would need a 6-pack license or just close buddies who understand to be able to pull that off without issue though... 

Now if you're friend is stupidly-loaded with money and wants to let everyone go out for no cost, then hey, introduce me, cause I could use a free trip out


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## Aces Full (Aug 10, 2005)

OK...so from what I've read so far...how would it be interpreted if you told your crew..."we can all split the cost of this trip if you want, but if you don't, then you will never be asked to fish on this boat again" Technically, yer not requiring them to pay for that trip therefore it's not a condition of carriage right? Then, on the next trip, since the same statement is made again, are we good to go?


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

Has anyone ever gone on a fishing trip with a buddy and not helped pay for gas or food, etc.? 

I haven't. This seems silly. If your all buddies, who's gonna tell?

I guess helping him clean the boat could be considered consideration too. I really don't see an issue to be concerned with.


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## Unbound (Jul 12, 2004)

It seems silly and probably a non-issue but how about this. "I'll take you guys fishing with no conditions. Um, I'm kind of broke so we'll just go out a couple miles in the bay or channel and soak some mullet. Now if you guys want to volunteer to split the fuel, we can go offshore instead. It's not a condition of carriage, just a condition of where we go". Goofy technicality I know, but then again, goofy law-if it is.


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## marshvr4 (Dec 13, 2006)

Some people get way too caught up on legalities. Man, you only live once, go out there and have a good time. If, like me, the only way you can even go out there and have fun these days is by having friends join you and splitting costs, than do it. I want someone to post up a case of a true cost sharing trip that has gone to court and been prosecuted as an illegal charter. Not "I heard of this guy who got nailed" stuff, real evidence. 

And like one person said, you can play this game to death...if someone has a bottle of dish soap in their truck that you borrow to clean the boat with afterwards, you are now a guilty illegal charter. Come on. If you go 60.1 in a 60mph zone, you are speeding too. Are you gonna get pulled over? 99.999% of the time, no. but if you do, I bet you could get it dropped in court (the accuracy of radar alone would get it dropped). We all know the intent of a charter. Fishing with some buddies and having them help with costs IS NOT the intent of what the regs mean to be a charter. 

And like my girl Donor said above, you should try owning a boat...it's a lot of work! Asking to just help with fuel is only the tip of the iceberg. Besides, I spend most of my time driving and don't get to do a lot of fishing.

I do like the "club" or "association" idea and if you are one of the posters that are so worried about going 60.1 in a 60, then maybe you should use this plan to CYA.


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

Hey Unbound how about I buy your stinking mullets for $200 and you take us out to go soak some Islanders and Ballyhoo instead? Maybe I can get the birds working by throwing them thar expensive mullets up in the air! 

Technically I bought your mullets and it's a zero-sum deal. /sammie


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## Bill Fisher (Apr 12, 2006)

in today's classifieds:

pencils $200.00 each!

BUT WAIT!!!!!!!!

that's-not-all!!!..........

if you act now you'll receive a spot aboard a
sportfisher to go offshore fishing in the GOM* for 
up to 3hrs!!!!!

get two friends in on the deal and the three of you 
as a group will receive an extra 3hours of fishing time 
without having to puchase another pencil!!!!!!!!!!!!......

that's a total of 12 hours for the price of 3 pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

don't wait!!!!......... call now!!!!

our operators are standing by!

[this offer void in Oklahoma, Washington DC, Oregon, Florida, and certain parts of Alabama......... must be 18 or over to purchase]

*pending sea conditions

(offer expires when unleaded gasoline goes over $4/gal at the nearest dock)


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## Swells (Nov 27, 2007)

What, no bonus rubber duckie and a T-shirt that says "I got [expletive deleted] on SPI" ?????

Make it a carpenter's pencil, you got it!


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## Bozo (Jun 16, 2004)

TXPalerider said:


> Has anyone ever gone on a fishing trip with a buddy and not helped pay for gas or food, etc.?
> 
> I haven't. This seems silly. If your all buddies, who's gonna tell?
> 
> I guess helping him clean the boat could be considered consideration too. I really don't see an issue to be concerned with.


I agree 100%. It is the only ethical and sensible thing to do as a guest given the opportunity to participate in a fishing trip.

I just mentioned what I was told by a TPWD official and what I did to ease my feelings if I have a big tournament win on the line and am taking a polygraph. If it wasn't for that, then I wouldn't be worried about it nor would I think twice about the law having an effect on me.


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## Snap Draggin (Nov 11, 2007)

Bill Fisher said:


> in today's classifieds:
> 
> pencils $200.00 each!
> 
> ...


Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! Leave it up to BF to figure this one out.


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## 1st_rate_mate (Oct 12, 2004)

Unfortunately while the revised Passenger Vessel Safety Act does relax reg's relating to vessles under 100 tonnes IT DOES NOT preclude nor protect boat owners from issues of liability. While W. Shakespeare's notion of attorneys is generally accepted by most humans IT IS COMMON SENSE practice to simply have each buddy sign a simple waiver and release from liability. Slip and fall ambulance chasers abound. IT ONLY TAKES A SECOND FOLKS> http://personal.myvine.com/~bahai/waiver.htm


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## birdman77520 (Nov 19, 2007)

*Agree with Crossroads...NONISSUE!!!*

Unless some of you are trying to "outwit" the law itself and charge for a trip??!! I take "paying crew" all the time and all is done at the end of the trip....most simply add up the cost of ice, gas, bait, and any hard baits that were lost and then split by so many riders. Never been any problem, never been asked by any game warden and seen plenty. If ever this went to a court situation....simply get statements from all and copies of your posts on 2cool....further discussion of this matter is from "timid people who worry about everything, or people who are trying to break the law for real"!!!! JT from Baytown:cheers:


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## 007 (Mar 11, 2008)

Holy resurrection of a post Batman!!


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## txcbc (Jun 27, 2006)

Reel Aggie and I were the ones boarded last year for having the word "team" in the boat name. Matt the NMFS agent flagged us down last Saturday on our way back in. When he boarded us I reminded him that he had stopped me last year because of the boat name. He remembered it and told me that he written 15 tickets this year for illegal charter operators. He said there is "no problem with sharing expenses,but if I hear of someone charging $1,500 for a trip, which seems to be the going rate, they are going to have a problem". 

I think that Matt is a straight up guy and I don't think that he going to spend his time trying to trick people. He understands that we all split expenses and he is after the guys that take a total stranger on their boat with the fees set up front or someone being paid by some company to take their clients out. While he does his job he is on our side.


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