# History of the watchtower society



## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

This is the historical facts of how the watchtower society started. These are in the history books.

A Short History of the Watchtower Organization

Jehovah's Witnesses trace their origins to the nineteenth century Adventist movement in America. That movement began with William Miller, a Baptist lay preacher who, in the year 1816, began proclaiming that Christ would return in 1843. His predictions of the Second Coming or Second Advent captured the imagination of thousands in Baptist and other mainline churches. Perhaps as many as 50,000 followers put their trust in Miller's chronological calculations and prepared to welcome the Lord, while, as the appointed time approached, others watched nervously from a distance. Recalculations moved the promised second advent from March, 1843 to March, 1844, and then to October of that year. Alas, that date too passed uneventfully.

After the "Disappointment of 1844" Miller's following fell apart, with most of those who had looked to him returning to their respective churches before his death in 1849. But other disappointed followers kept the movement alive, although in fragmented form. Their activities eventually led to the formation of several sects under the broad heading of "Adventism" including the Advent Christian Church, the Life and Advent Union, the Seventh-Day Adventists, and various Second Adventist groups.

An interesting side-note: The Branch Davidians who died at Waco, Texas, under the leadership of David Koresh also trace their roots to the same Millerite source through a different line of descent. In 1935 the Seventh Day Adventist Church expelled a Bulgarian immigrant named Victor Houteff, who had begun teaching his own views on certain passages of the Revelation or Apocalypse, the last book of the Bible. Houteff set up shop on the property at Waco. After first referring to his tiny new sect as The Shepherd's Rod, Houteff and his people in 1942 incorporated and renamed themselves Davidian Seventh Day Adventists. Houteff died in 1955, and in 1961 his wife Florence officially disbanded the sect, but a few followers under the leadership of west Texas businessman Benjamin Roden took over the real estate. Roden died in 1978, leaving behind his wife Lois and his son George to lead the group. Then, in 1987, David Koresh took over the leadership position, and the tragedy that followed is public knowledge.

Jehovah's Witnesses, likewise, trace their roots back to the Adventists. But they do not often admit this to outsiders; nor do many Witnesses know the details themselves. JWs are accustomed to defending themselves against the charge that they are a new religious cult. They will often respond that theirs is the most ancient religious group, older than Catholic and Protestant churches. In fact, their book Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose asserts that "Jehovah's witnesses have a history almost 6,000 years long, beginning while the first man, Adam, was still alive," that Adam's son Abel was "the first of an unbroken line of Witnesses," and that "Jesus' disciples were all Jehovah's witnesses [sic] too." (pp. 8-9)

An outsider listening to such claims quickly realizes, of course, that the sect has simply appropriated unto itself all the characters named in the Bible as faithful witnesses of God. By such extrapolation the denomination is able to stretch its history back to the beginnings of the human family-at least in the eyes of adherents who are willing to accept such arguments. But outside observers generally dismiss this sort of rhetoric and instead reckon the Witnesses as dating back only to Charles Taze Russell, who was born on February 16, 1852, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Originally raised a Presbyterian, Russell was 16 years old and a member of the Congregational church in the year 1868, when he found himself losing faith. He had begun to doubt not only church creeds and doctrines, but also God and the Bible itself. At this critical juncture a chance encounter restored his faith and placed him under the influence of Second Adventist preacher Jonas Wendell.

For some years after that Russell continued to study Scripture with and under the influence of various Adventist laymen and clergy, notably Advent Christian Church minister George Stetson and the Bible Examiner's publisher George Storrs. He met locally on a regular basis with a small circle of friends to discuss the Bible, and this informal study group came to regard him as their leader or pastor.

In January, 1876, when he was 23 years old, Russell received a copy of The Herald of the Morning, an Adventist magazine published by Nelson H. Barbour of Rochester, New York. One of the distinguishing features of Barbour's group at that time was their belief that Christ returned invisibly in 1874, and this concept presented in The Herald captured Russell's attention. It meant that this Adventist splinter group had not remained defeated, as others had, when Christ failed to appear in 1874 as Adventist leaders had predicted; somehow this small group had managed to hold onto the date by affirming that the Lord had indeed returned at the appointed time, only invisibly.

Was this mere wishful thinking, coupled with a stubborn refusal to admit the error of failed chronological calculations? Perhaps, but Barbour had some arguments to offer in support of his assertions. In particular, he came up with a basis for reinterpreting the Second Coming as an invisible event: In Benjamin Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott translation of the New Testament the word rendered coming in the King James Version at Matthew 24:27, 37, 39 is translated presence instead. This served as the basis for Barbour's group to advocate, in addition to their time calculations, an invisible presence of Christ.

Although the idea appealed to young Charles Taze Russell, the reading public apparently refused to 'buy' the story of an invisible Second Coming, with the result that N. H. Barbour's publication The Herald of the Morning was failing financially. In the summer of 1876 wealthy Russell paid Barbour's way to Philadelphia and met with him to discuss both beliefs and finances. The upshot was that Russell became the magazine's financial backer and was added to the masthead as an Assistant Editor. He contributed articles for publication as well as monetary gifts, and Russell's small study group similarly became affiliated with Barbour's.

Russell and Barbour believed and taught that Christ's invisible return in 1874 would be followed soon afterward, in the spring of 1878 to be exact, by the Rapture-the bodily snatching away of believers to heaven. When this expected Rapture failed to occur on time in 1878, The Herald's editor, Mr. Barbour, came up with "new light" on this and other doctrines. Russell, however, rejected some of the new ideas and persuaded other members to oppose them. Finally, Russell quit the staff of the Adventist magazine and started his own. He called it Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence and published its first issue with the date July, 1879. In the beginning it had the same mailing list as The Herald of the Morning and considerable space was devoted to refuting the latter on points of disagreement, Russell having taken with him a copy of that magazine's mailing list when he resigned as assistant editor.

At this point Charles Russell no longer wanted to consider himself an Adventist, nor a Millerite. But, he continued to view Miller and Barbour as instruments chosen by God to lead His people in the past. The formation of a distinct denomination around Russell was a gradual development. His immediate break was, not with Adventism, but with the person and policies of N. H. Barbour.

Nor were barriers immediately erected with respect to Protestantism in general. New readers obtaining subscriptions to Zion's Watch Tower were often church members who saw the magazine as a para-church ministry, not as an anti-church alternative. Russell traveled about speaking from the pulpits of Protestant churches as well as to gatherings of his own followers. In 1879, the year of his marriage to Maria Frances Ackley and also the year he began publishing Zion's Watch Tower, Russell organized some thirty study groups or congregations scattered from Ohio to the New England coast. Each local "class" or ecclesia came to recognize him as "Pastor," although geography and Russell's writing and publishing activities prevented more than an occasional pastoral visit in person.

Inevitably, Russell's increasingly divergent teachings forced his followers to separate from other church bodies and to create a denomination of their own. Beginning, as he did, in a small branch of Adventism that went to the extreme of setting specific dates for the return of Christ and the Rapture, Russell went farther out on a limb in 1882 by openly rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity. His earlier mentor Nelson H. Barbour was a Trinitarian, as was The Herald of the Morning's other assistant editor John H. Paton who joined Russell in leaving Barbour to start Zion's Watch Tower. The writings of Barbour and Paton that Russell had helped publish or distribute were Trinitarian in their theology. And the Watch Tower itself was at first vague and noncommittal on the subject. It was only after Paton broke with him in 1882, and ceased to be listed on the masthead, that Russell began writing against the doctrine of the Trinity.

By the time of his death , Charles Taze Russell had traveled more than a million miles and preached more than 30,000 sermons. He had authored works totaling some 50,000 printed pages, and nearly 20,000,000 copies of his books and booklets had been sold.

Followers had been taught that Russell himself was the "faithful and wise servant" of Matthew 24:45 and "the Laodicean Messenger," God's seventh and final spokesman to the Christian church. But he lived to see the failure of various dates he had predicted for the Rapture, and finally died on October 31, 1916, more than two years after the world was supposed to have ended, according to his calculations, in early October, 1914..

His disciples, however, saw the World War then raging as reason to believe "the end" was still imminent. They buried Russell beneath a headstone identifying him as "the Laodicean Messenger," and erected next to his grave a massive stone pyramid emblazoned with the cross and crown symbol he was fond of and the name "Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society." (The pyramid still stands off Cemetery Lane in Ross, a northern Pittsburgh suburb, where it reportedly serves as the focal point of an eerie scene each Halloween as modern-day Russellites encircle it, holding hands, in a vigil commemorating the day of his death.)

According to instructions Russell left behind, his successor to the presidency would share power with an editorial committee and with the Watch Tower corporation's board of directors, whom Russell had appointed "for life." But vice president Joseph Franklin ("Judge") Rutherford soon set about concentrating all organizational authority in his own hands. A skilled lawyer who had served as Russell's chief legal advisor, he combined legal prowess with what opponents undoubtedly saw as a Machiavellian approach to internal corporate politics. Thus he used a loophole in their appointment to unseat the majority of the Watch Tower directors without calling a membership vote. And he even had a subordinate summon the police into the Society's Brooklyn headquarters offices to break up their board meeting and evict them from the premises. (Faith on the March by A. H. Macmillan, pp. 78-80)

After securing the headquarters complex and the sect's corporate entities, Rutherford turned his attention to the rest of the organization. By gradually replacing locally elected elders with his own appointees, he managed to transform a loose collection of semi-autonomous democratically-run congregations into a tight-knit organizational machine run from his office. Some local congregations broke away, forming such Russellite splinter groups as the Chicago Bible Students, the Dawn Bible Students, and the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement, all of which continue to this day. But most Bible Students remained under his control, and Rutherford renamed them "Jehovah's Witnesses" in 1931, to distinguish them from these other groups.

Meanwhile, he shifted the sect's emphasis from the individual "character development" Russell had stressed to vigorous public witnessing work, distributing the Society's literature from house to house. By 1927 this door-to-door literature distribution had become an essential activity required of all members. The literature consisted primarily of Rutherford's unremitting series of attacks against government, against Prohibition, against "big business," and against the Roman Catholic Church. He also forged a huge radio network and took to the air waves, exploiting populist and anti-Catholic sentiment to draw thousands of additional converts. His vitriolic attacks, blaring from portable phonographs carried to people's doors and from the loudspeakers of sound cars parked across from churches, also drew down upon the Witnesses mob violence and government persecution in many parts of the world.

Like Russell, Rutherford tried his hand at prophecy and predicted that biblical patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would be resurrected in 1925 to rule as princes over the earth. (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, pp. 89-90) They failed to show up, of course, and Rutherford quit predicting dates. In fact, referring to that prophetic failure he later admitted, "I made an *** of myself." (The Watchtower, October 1, 1984, p. 24)

Vice President Nathan Homer Knorr inherited the presidency upon Rutherford's death in 1942 but left doctrinal matters largely in the hands of Frederick W. Franz, who joined the sect under Russell and had been serving at Brooklyn headquarters since 1920. Lacking the personal magnetism and charisma of Russell and Rutherford, Knorr focused followers' devotion on the 'Mother' organization rather than on himself.

After decades of publishing books and booklets authored by its presidents Russell and Rutherford, the Watchtower Society began producing literature that was written anonymously. But it was not impersonal, since the organization itself was virtually personified, and readers were directed to "show our respect for Jehovah's organization, for she is our mother and the beloved wife of our heavenly Father, Jehovah God." (The Watchtower, May 1, 1957, p. 285)

A superb administrator, Knorr shifted the sect's focus from dynamic leadership to dynamic membership. He initiated training programs to transform members into effective recruiters. Instead of carrying a portable phonograph from house to house, playing recordings of "Judge" Rutherford's lectures at people's doorsteps, the average Jehovah's Witness began receiving instruction on how to speak persuasively. Men, women, and children learned to give sermons at the doors on a variety of subjects.

Meanwhile Fred Franz worked behind the scenes to restore faith in the sect's chronological calculations, a subject largely ignored following Rutherford's prophetic failure in 1925. The revised chronology established Christ's invisible return as having taken place in 1914 rather than 1874, and, during the 1960's, the Society's publications began pointing to the year 1975 as the likely time for Armageddon and the end of the world.

The prevailing belief among Jehovah's Witnesses today is that the Society never predicted "the end" for 1975, but that some over-zealous members mistakenly read this into the message. However, the official prediction is well documented. See, for example, the article titled "Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?" in The Watchtower of August 15, 1968, pp. 494-501. Allowing for a small margin of error, it concludes a lengthy discussion with this thought: "Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man's existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. . . . It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years." (p. 499) For several other quotes pointing specifically to 1975, see the book Index of Watchtower Errors (by David A. Reed, Baker Book House, 1990) pages 106-110.

Knorr's training programs for proselytizing, plus Franz' apocalyptic projections for 1975, combined to produce rapid growth in membership, the annual rate of increase peaking at 13.5 percent in 1974. All of this pushed meeting attendance at JW Kingdom Halls from around 100,000 in 1941 to just under 5 million in 1975. Growth since then has been slower, but fairly steady in most years, with the result that nearly 11.5 million gathered at Kingdom Halls in the spring of 1992 for the Witnesses' annual communion or "Memorial" service commemorating Christ's death with unleavened bread and red wine.

During the 1970's changes took place at Watchtower headquarters in regard to presidential power. First it became accepted in theory that the Christian Church (which Jehovah's Witnesses see their organization as encompassing) should not be under one-man rule, but rather should be governed by a body similar to the twelve apostles. The 7-member board of directors of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania had previously been portrayed as fulfilling this role, but in 1971 an expanded Governing Body was created with a total of eleven members, including the seven Directors. The aim was to demonstrate that the leadership derived authority from an apostolic source, rather than from Pennsylvania corporate law.

This new Governing Body was displayed as further evidence of the sect's being the one true church, but in actuality Nathan Knorr continued to rule Jehovah's Witnesses much as Russell and Rutherford had done before him. That is, until 1975, when Governing Body members began insisting on exercising the powers granted to them in theory but that had never really been theirs in practice. Over the objections of Fred Franz the Body that he had been instrumental in creating actually began governing, so that when Nathan Knorr passed away in 1977 Franz inherited an emasculated presidency.

Franz also inherited an organization troubled by discontent over the obvious failure of his prophecies of the world's end in the autumn of 1975. Even at Brooklyn headquarters little groups meeting privately for Bible study were beginning to question not only the 1914-based chronology that produced the 1975 deadline, but also the related teaching that the "heavenly calling" of believers ended in 1935, with new converts after that date consigned to an earthly paradise for their eternal reward.

The hitherto fast-growing sect actually began losing members for the first time in decades, as people who had expected Armageddon in 1975 became disillusioned. When membership loss grew into the hundreds of thousands-a fact masked by new conversions in figures released by the Society, but reported in an investigative article in the Los Angeles Times of January 30, 1982 (pp. 4-5)-president Franz and the conservative majority on the Governing Body took action. In the spring of 1980 they initiated a crack-down on dissidents, breaking up the independent Bible study groups at headquarters, and forming "judicial committees" to have those seen as ringleaders put on trial for "disloyalty" and "apostasy."

By the time this purge culminated in the forced resignation and subsequent excommunication of the president's nephew and fellow Governing Body member Raymond V. Franz (a development Time magazine found worthy of a full-page article, Feb. 22, 1982, p. 66) a siege mentality took hold on the world-wide organization. Even Witnesses who left quietly and voluntarily for personal reasons were denounced as disloyal and were ordered shunned, former friends forbidden to say as much as "a simple 'Hello'" to them.

Thus, although Frederick W. Franz served as the sect's chief theologian for some fifty years-from the start of Knorr's presidency in 1942 until his own death on December 22, 1992-the fact that he outlived his failed prophecies by more than fifteen years required him to impose a mini-Inquisition on the membership in order to keep his doctrinal and chronological framework in force for the remainder of his lifetime.

Milton G. Henschel's selection as fifth Watchtower president on December 30, 1992, is truly significant for the 13 million now attending Kingdom Halls. At first glance the choice of a staunch conservative for the post may seem to guarantee a continuation of the status quo, with little change in the offing for Jehovah's Witnesses. But a closer look reveals this appointment as the conservative old guard's last stand-an indication that radical change in the sect's leadership and doctrines is imminent.

At age 72 Henschel became the second-youngest member of the Governing Body, and he was selected to lead by men several years older than he is. (Both the average age and the median age at the time of Henschel's appointment calculated out to about 82 years.) With members in their eighties known to sleep through meetings and to vote on matters upon being awakened (See eyewitness Raymond Franz's account in his book Crisis of Conscience, p. 40.) the Body is losing its ability to provide purposeful and decisive leadership. Henschel was no doubt chosen in part due to his having vitality others lacked. Obviously, these aging leaders will not be able to hold the reigns of power much longer. The men who shared in building the Watchtower into what it is today will soon leave it behind for others to run.

In the decades following the death of founder Charles Taze Russell, his successor J. F. Rutherford found himself forced to re-write many of the sect's major doctrines. Much the same can be expected when JWs of a new generation inherit the positions currently occupied by Milton Henschel and his fellow elderly Governing Body members. When new leaders eventually take over, will they drop the ban on blood transfusions? Only time will tell. But, even if they do, it will make no difference for those who have already died, nor for those Witnesses continuing to die while the teaching remains in place.

In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

A lot strange history to that watchtower. Ever notice how the JW's try their hardest not to reveal what organization they belong to? They will say that they like what Miller wrote or what Milton believed, but they sure try to hide the fact that they belong to the watchtower. That should raise up a huge red flag - when somebody is trying to be deceptive about what organization they belong to. If I really believe what my church preaches and stands for, I will have no reservation about inviting others and letting them know what church or organization I'm talking about.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

If you really want to know the truth about Jehovah's Witnesses go to jw.org. These copy and paste post come from apostate sites, and yes there are a lot of them out there. Just because something is printed, doesn't make it true, and there are a lot of lies in the OP's post. For some reason the OP has something against Jehovah's Witnesses and will go to any lengths to bash the organization.

What is puzzling to me is he has corresponded with me through private messages and asked several questions, appearing to be interested in some of our literature, telling me there are some things he agrees with, but there are things he disagrees with also, which is understandable. There are some things that you cannot explain clearly on an internet site. Funny how some people can be so friendly when communicating with you directly, then attack you viciously in an open forum. To me that is very deceitful, and the scriptures are very clear, as far as those ones are concerned.

Again, if you want the truth go to jw.org. Any other website, even though it may look like a witness site, is probably apostate and full of lies.


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

Saggy,

I am in no way attacking you personally. You seem to be a good person who is passionate about your beliefs. I am pointing out where the Jehovah Witnesses are wrong. They are a cult! *The facts I posted above are historical truths.* I bet you haven't even studied their history.

*What I posted was from history. It is a fact. Go read it.* The website for the JW will not show the historical facts. Why? because it would show how they are wrong. The JW organization fits the basic outline of a cult. Here, let me post these and see if the JW fit's them.

Their are 2 categories of cults one is doctrinally the other is sociologically.

1. Almost all cults deny the Apostles creed which consists of the virgin birth, deity of Christ, his resurrection, his atonement on the cross and the 2nd coming.  This applies to the JW

2. They have tendency to pronounce other groups as apostate and they alone have the truth.  This applies to the JW

3. They devalue or deny the deity of Christ.  This applies to the JW

4. They have Extra sources of biblical revelation they may use Gods word with something else to interpret it.  This applies to the JW and it is called the Watchtower publications.

5. They have salvation by works -either denying God's grace or add performance. It will not always be easy to spot.  This applies to the JW. The JW teach that you must witness a certain amount. I've seen in your post Shaggy where you "hope" that God will save you. The scriptures teach that you can know if your saved.

6. They will deny a major doctrine. Cult like groups take a minor doctrine and make it a major.

The following are basic patterns, or characteristics, found in almost all cults that one can easily identify.

Additions - Cults add to the Word of God by having additional writings they call scripture, or by saying that only the Bible is God's Word but you cannot understand it without their interpretation from their own teachers or books. Sometimes the Bible is discouraged to be read alone or you must use their bible which is slightly changed to fit their misguided doctrines.  This applies to the JW. For example, they add the letter "a" to John 1:1. If Jesus was "a god", then how many other "god's are there?"

Subtraction - Cults subtract from the Person of Jesus by saying he is something less than Eternal Deity. Or they will add their own teacher as deity.  This applies to the JW

Multiplication - Every false religion has works as part of their system of salvation. They also usually specify what works must be performed at a certain level for acceptance to their group and God.  This applies to the JW. History shows that the JW organization has changed their views many times and have many failed prophcies. No, the JW website will not show these, but the history of the organization does. 

Mediators- They will always have others involved for ones salvation by others.

Division - Cults have people choose by dividing a person's loyalty. It's God through their leadership by claiming to be the only Spokesman, Group or Society for God. They also require obedience to their leadership to be in right standing with God. They do not tolerate anotherâ€™s differing opinions and it is looked upon as being divisive or of the enemy.  This applies to the JW. I've seen this with family members who get shunned. Seen it many times.

Again Shaggy, I am not attacking you personally. What I am disclosing are facts that you choose not to believe or are told not to investigate. What I posted in the OP are historical facts. GO READ THEM!!!


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

shaggydog said:


> If you really want to know the truth about Jehovah's Witnesses go to jw.org. These copy and paste post come from apostate sites, and yes there are a lot of them out there. Just because something is printed, doesn't make it true, *and there are a lot of lies in the OP's post. Please point out the lies Shaggy. *
> 
> Again, if you want the truth go to jw.org. Any other website, even though it may look like a witness site, is probably apostate and full of lies.


* Again, please point out the lies.*


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

atcfisherman said:


> * Again, please point out the lies.*


x2

And also shaggy, I saw nobody attacking you viciously. I really believe that people need to know the truth about this organization and what atcfisherman has posted is true.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

It is laughable that you think witnesses are a cult. Amazing.

By the way there are many gods, but only one Almighty God. Anything that is worshiped is considered a god, including money and materialism.


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

You know what I meant shaggy. Living gods. If you believe that Jesus was "a" god, then you are admitting there is more than one living god, which is not true. 

Again, show us what is incorrect in the OP. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

1. Why are you avoiding the request to give us facts about what lies are in the OP about the history of the watch tower?

2. Why are you avoiding the cult similarities that identify JW as a cult?


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

We are still waiting for you to point out what "lies" in the OP about th history of the watchtower society. Patiently waiting. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

atcfisherman said:


> We are still waiting for you to point out what "lies" in the OP about th history of the watchtower society. Patiently waiting.
> 
> In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


You will continue to wait. I will not respond to your posts any longer. Your attacks and accusations have become very tiresome and old. I seems amazing to me that you profess to know so much about the witnesses, to have never been associated with them. If the people on this site can be fooled like that so be it. It is like going to someone that can't add and asking them to teach you math.

If someone wants to know about Jehovah's Witnesses, go to the website, or ask one of the witnesses. Why believe someone that has an obvious grudge. You will just get lies. This man is full of deception.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

Shaggy I have many friends and relatives that are JW's and can confirm many things that atcfisherman has posted. And many things he posted can be confirmed by the JW's website. 

How can you shun a family member just because he/she no longer attends the kingdom hall gatherings? Is that what Jesus taught in the prodigal son parable? Also, why can't children attend their friend's birthday parties? What is so bad about little kids celebrating their birthday? Also, no blood transfusion to save your child's life? C'mon brother, it's ok to question.


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

Fine shaggy! But you are only not responding to the "lies" because you can't find any. Again, you take things personal when they are not meant to be. I have pointed out historical facts and you say it's full of lies. I ask you to show me the lies and you refuse to. That makes your statement about lies very questionable. I would think if its truly full of lies that you would point them out clearly. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish, first let me say that people are going to believe what they want to believe. Our religion is not a cult, and I have addressed that already.
As far as your post above, you clearly do not have all the facts. One of the things I really appreciate about the Witnesses is the lack of hypocrisy, which turned me off to other religions. They simply do not live according to bible standards.

Family members are not shunned because they quit attending meetings. Some do drift away from the organization and there is nothing done about it. I played golf for many years with one such brother after he had left the congregation. Now if someone is disfellowshipped for committing a serious sin we would not associate with them . This is following the example of the first century Christians, which is what we pattern our religion after. Look at Paul's words at 1Corinthians 5:9-13.

9â€¯In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10â€¯not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11â€¯But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12â€¯For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13â€¯while God judges those outside? â€œRemove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.â€

Understand that Paul is speaking of "brothers", those that are associated with the congregation. He tells them to remove the wicked man from among you. Those that commit serious sin and are UNREPENTANT, or continue to practice vile things, are removed from the congregation. If the one disfellowshipped has a change of heart and shows true repentance (and yes this does take some time), he is welcomed back into the congregation with open arms and is COMPLETELY forgiven, much like the prodigal son.

Birthdays There are only 2 accounts of birthdays mentioned in the bible. Jesus birthday is never mentioned in the bible. In the two accounts that are mentioned, bad things happened. They both ended in a death. The first was the account of Pharaoh of Egypt, where his chief baker was hanged. You can find this at Genesis 40: 18-22, and Genesis 41:13.

The second account was the birthday of Herod Antipas in the first century. It resulted in the beheading of John the Baptist. You can find this account at Matthew 14: 6-11, and again at Mark 6: 21-28.

There is no record of Jesus birth date. It was not December 25. When Jesus was but the scriptures indicate it was late fall not winter. The sheep were still in the fields and they would not be in December. There is no indication in the scriptures that faithful followers of Jehovah and Jesus celebrated birthdays. Again, because we pattern our religion after the first century Christians, we do not celebrate birthdays.

I have addressed the blood issues before. Jehovah views blood as sacred and is His only. The scriptures clearly state "abstain from blood."

As far as questioning, I did plenty of it before I took the oath to dedicate my life to Jehovah. All questions were clearly answered. Again, that is very hard to do on an internet site.

Some people that are disfellowshipped hold a major grudge against the organization and attack it. I think it is very possible that that has happened to someone on this site. I do not know that for a fact, but there is clear indication that that is the case.

People will believe what the want to believe. If they consider us a cult, so be it. They would have labeled the first century Christian congregation as a cult also, and Jesus as the head of the cult. I can live with that. That first century congregation is exactly what we do our best to imitate.


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## tngbmt (May 30, 2004)

the 'we the navel of the universe' syndrome.
sometimes when reading scripture ... i too, felt like i'm looking for the hidden messages. i've even tried to research thru original translations, reading the scrolls or even dissecting buddha's journey to enlightenment. i'm praying that these types of c&p are to remind each of us the folly of our own failures and never to antagonize others. peace & a happy, prosperous new year

Matt 7:3-5


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

tngbmt said:


> the 'we the navel of the universe' syndrome.
> sometimes when reading scripture ... i too, felt like i'm looking for the hidden messages. i've even tried to research thru original translations, reading the scrolls or even dissecting buddha's journey to enlightenment. i'm praying that these types of c&p are to remind each of us the folly of our own failures and never to antagonize others. peace & a happy, prosperous new year
> 
> Matt 7:3-5


Let us do all for God's glory. Jesus is the name above all names. He is Lord, God & Savior.

2 Corinthians 11:1-4


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

Shaggy,

Please show us the lies in the OP about the historical fact of the watchtower society. That is all I'm asking. That is not an attack. But you refusing to point out the lies just shows that there aren't any. Just show them so the truth can be know. It's very simple. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

shaggydog said:


> .
> 
> 1)They simply do not live according to bible standards.
> 
> ...


Shaggy,

1) So you are admitting that the bible is not good enough to be the only source?

2) if family members are not shunned, then why are there so many stories about them being shunned? There is one in my extended family that this happened to. I doubt that is just a single source.

3) So you are superstitious because the two birthdays mentioned in the bible had bad things happen to them? What about where the bible says to not be superstitious?

4) Again, same as number 3.

5) You are correct that there is no record on the bible of the actual date that Jesus was born. And yes, it was logically in the fall because of the shepherds tending to their flocks in the fields. But where does it not say to celebrate the birth of the one and only savior? You think God is going to say, "you sinned because you celebrated the birth of my son!"?

6) you can't be further from the truth about some one here being disfellowshipped. First, one would have had to of been a JW, which I've never been. Secondly, I'm going off of facts so seeing the shunning of people I know who we're JW and left because they finally saw the errors in that religion.

In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

*Anyone familiar with the Silent Lambs recovery web site?*

Please.. research yourself by all means. Don't just get a small part of the picture. Get the facts.. www.silentlambs.org.

After doing a little research myself, just to have a better understanding.. I was very shocked myself to say the least.


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## FINNFOWLER (Sep 2, 2004)

People in glass houses should never throw stones. 

What religion is the correct one? How do you know for sure that "XYZ" religion is the correct one? Did God himself come down and sit with you and tell you this himself? ALL religions have been passed down, first by word of mouth for generations, then finally someone had to sit down and write them down. You think some of the details were lost or embellished? 

You can not stand here and tell me that any one religion is the correct one. You can defend you faith by what some one has told you or what you have read/studied (revert to my first paragraph) and "believe" it to be the truth. So until you talk with God Almighty himself, quite barking at things that do not align with your particular belief.


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

Finn,

It's obvious you have never studied all the major religions nor religious history. I have been doing so for years and yes, God did come down here through Jesus Christ. Let me ask you this question. When you stand before the creator after you die, how are you going to answer for your sins? 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

Seeker said:


> Please.. research yourself by all means. Don't just get a small part of the picture. Get the facts.. www.silentlambs.org.
> 
> After doing a little research myself, just to have a better understanding.. I was very shocked myself to say the least.


So this website is dedicated to the abuse by the JW organization? Wow! But as I was checking it out, I felt the Holy Spirit tell me those people need a savior too. We must pray and be the light to all because Jesus died for all sinners.

In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

atcfisherman said:


> So this website is dedicated to the abuse by the JW organization? Wow! But as I was checking it out, I felt the Holy Spirit tell me those people need a savior too. We must pray and be the light to all because Jesus died for all sinners.
> 
> In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


Amen to that brother!


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

atcfisherman said:


> Shaggy,
> 
> Please show us the lies in the OP about the historical fact of the watchtower society. That is all I'm asking. That is not an attack. But you refusing to point out the lies just shows that there aren't any. Just show them so the truth can be know. It's very simple.
> 
> In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


This right here is a very reasonable request after being accused of spreading lies. All shaggy has to do is point out the lies that he is alleging.


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

By all means. I was neutral just lick fin here until I started reading on this site. My heart was absolutely devastated. Yes. We are all broken and need Christ. People will say what they want. I have my own discernment, and it has not mislead me yet. I'm not trying to convert anyone, trying to get anyone to follow any religion. I will preach the Good News and tell people about hope. People are either called or they're not. 

Personal relationships with Jesus


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

Yep, it comes down to a relationship with Jesus, not a religion. Good point seeker. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## Seeker (Jul 6, 2009)

Not man made religions. I do not push any specific religion. Sorry iPhone fat finger.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Seeker said:


> Please.. research yourself by all means. Don't just get a small part of the picture. Get the facts.. www.silentlambs.org.
> 
> After doing a little research myself, just to have a better understanding.. I was very shocked myself to say the least.


Sorry, I don't visit apostate websites, but I am sure that everything posted on the web, must be the truth.


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

shaggydog said:


> Sorry, I don't visit apostate websites, but I am sure that everything posted on the web, must be the truth.


ROFL.......Then what you are doing Shaggy burying your head in the sand. Do you think that website was made up with all those cases? You are definitly in denial.

Lastly, please educate me as to what lies were posted in the original OP.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

shaggydog said:


> Sorry, I don't visit apostate websites, but I am sure that everything posted on the web, must be the truth.


Shaggy how can you assume something so preposterous? You haven't even seen the website. I'll tell you one thing for sure, God hears the cries of those children and vengeance is His. The watchtower might sweep all that garbage under the rug and dispense their own kind of justice, but God is not mocked. I better stop because this garbage that goes on in the JW's organization is really getting to me. God have mercy on the perpetrators.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> Shaggy how can you assume something so preposterous? You haven't even seen the website. I'll tell you one thing for sure, God hears the cries of those children and vengeance is His. The watchtower might sweep all that garbage under the rug and dispense their own kind of justice, but God is not mocked. I better stop because this garbage that goes on in the JW's organization is really getting to me. God have mercy on the perpetrators.


I have not and will not go to a website that obviously degrades my religion. The only thing I will tell you is there are bad apples in every bunch, and although I believe completely in our teachings, we are all imperfect and sin. When things are found out they are dealt with. Again, do not believe everything you read on the internet. If you do you are extremely gullible.

My last post on this thread.


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

Well I guess Shaggy finally admits that there were no lies in the OP because he hasn't show us.


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## FINNFOWLER (Sep 2, 2004)

atcfisherman said:


> Finn,
> 
> It's obvious you have never studied all the major religions nor religious history. I have been doing so for years and yes, God did come down here through Jesus Christ. Let me ask you this question. When you stand before the creator after you die, how are you going to answer for your sins?
> 
> In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


Well of course I will. Granted, some of the stuff I have done....sheesh! I don't even want to think about that. The point I am making is every time I come into here someone is hammering on someone else's religion. This place is not much better than the jungle. Carry on gentleman. Carry on. I will excuse myself back to the sinning boards.


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## w_r_ranch (Jan 14, 2005)

I guess it is too much to expect folks to treat everyone with respect and courtesy when discussing your beliefs or theirs. If you try to find the core principles that guide most religions, you will find that they all share many similarities, and there is room in the world for all of them.

And you call yourselves 'Christians'??? This forum has become a farce.


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

w_r_ranch said:


> I guess it is too much to expect folks to treat everyone with respect and courtesy when discussing your beliefs or theirs. If you try to find the core principles that guide most religions, you will find that they all share many similarities, and there is room in the world for all of them.
> 
> And you call yourselves 'Christians'??? This forum has become a farce.


Says the guy who...
- Wants to know if Jesus would grow a pot garden.
- Wants to know if Jesus would own a pitbull.
- Spends most of his time in the Jungle posting vulgar comments

Consider the source...


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Fish&Chips said:


> Says the guy who...
> - Wants to know if Jesus would grow a pot garden.
> - Wants to know if Jesus would own a pitbull.
> - Spends most of his time in the Jungle posting vulgar comments
> ...


Fish, I know I can be very argumentative, I certainly view it as a flaw in my personality as a Christian, and it something I have to constantly work on. I used to be much worse.

But you are the epitome of knowing how to win friends and influence people.


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## atcfisherman (Oct 5, 2006)

Maybe we need to have an internet "group hug." LOL 

Seriously, as much as I disagree with W_R_Ranch, he does have a valid point. We need to stop attacking others and start loving others even in our debates. I know I've cause a lot of this damage, but I'm ready to move on with a new view.

The Holy Spirit got a hold of me a few nights ago and showed me how out of line I was. It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong, if my heart in not right with God, then my approach, delivery and demeaner is definitly not Christ like.

Anyway, lets discuss the scriptures with the Holy Spirit leading us before we post something that we regret. I'm praying that God will give me the wisdon to listen twice as much as I speak. Heck, He even gave me two hears and one mouth, which indicates I should listen twice as much as I speak.

I hope all have a blessed day and that God will lead and guide each of you today.


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