# Crazy Prices



## LilWhit (Sep 30, 2007)

O.K. I'm new to hunting and have only been on a couple, unsuccessful, hunts and extrememly enjoyed the experience, everything from planning to waiting to dressing a friends kill is great. The problem I have and cannot figure out is why is it so freaking expensive to hunt anything??

I can halfway understand the exotics being expensive but a whitetail costing over $5500 is nuts to me, and I have seen higher prices. Hogs blow my mind too, because everything I read and hear says that hogs are a nuisance and people want to get them off their property, yet it costs hundreds of dollars to go hunt them.

Can someone please help me understand why it costs so much, I enjoy every little thing about the outdoors and hunting except the huge price tag. Is it feeding the deer and all, use of the land, or the demand that make hunting cost so stinking much???????

Thank you.


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## pepo211 (May 1, 2007)

LilWhit said:


> O.K. I'm new to hunting and have only been on a couple, unsuccessful, hunts and extrememly enjoyed the experience, everything from planning to waiting to dressing a friends kill is great. The problem I have and cannot figure out is why is it so freaking expensive to hunt anything??
> 
> I can halfway understand the exotics being expensive but a whitetail costing over $*5500 is nuts to me*, and I have seen higher prices. Hogs blow my mind too, because everything I read and hear says that hogs are a nuisance and people want to get them off their property, yet it costs hundreds of dollars to go hunt them.
> 
> ...


There are deer people sell on ranches that are 10Xs that much bro! The reason hunting is expensive is old school economics....supply and demand.......not to mention a lot of rich dudes willing to pay high dolla!!!!


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## TxDuSlayer (Jun 24, 2006)

Its what is killing our sport! There's lots of guys who have just had to give up hunting and throw in the towel!! One day I'am afraid to say but it will be a rich mans sport. Guys like us will just sit back and dream about past hunts and lease's.


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## michaelbaranowski (May 24, 2004)

I pretty much gave up on deer hunting about 8 years ago cause I lost my lease and when I started looking I couldn't find anything that wasn't a crazy price or too long of a drive.

But there are plenty of people that are willing to pay way too much so there is no reason for people to lower the price. 

I will just hunt a few times at the 60 acres on the old family place near Somerville and save up a little money to to go spearfishing.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Now lets be real here folks... it aint cheap to run a place....

Corn, protein, stands, food plots, farm implements, lodging, maintenance on all vehicles and facilities, taxes, labor and ROI.

You cant expect a guy to just let you go hunt the deer on his place for FREE!!! Its costing the landowner alot of money to keep his place up.... and 10 fold if he is managing a deer herd properly....

Go hunt National Forrest land.... its only 48 bucks a year....

If everybody is so concerned about pricing, then why isnt everybody jam packed on NF property????

Now, the hogs thing, I have questioned that myself.... but, then again, there is just as much maintenance on facilities and property..... soooo.....

And just for reference, I think its more of a "corporation/business" thing than a "rich man" thing.... I would say the majority of these high dollar hunts arent paid by an individual, but are actually for "entertainment" of clients....

Now, I could be totally wrong, but thats all I see in my line of work...

PS... Im the entertainer....


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

justinsfa said:


> Now lets be real here folks... it aint cheap to run a place....
> 
> Corn, protein, stands, food plots, farm implements, lodging, maintenance on all vehicles and facilities, taxes, labor and ROI.
> 
> ...


You beat me to it......Alot of people want to hunt big deer in south Texas or see a ton of deer in the Hill Country but whine about the high prices. If you really want to hunt there are plenty of opportunities. I have a friend who hunts the national forest every year. He pulls his horse trailer up there to sleep in and kills respectable deer every year for next to nothing.....

I agree hunting has gotten very expensive but it is what it is......if you really want to hunt and can't afford the high dollar leases get off you're arse and go find the cheaper opportunities....thery're out there....


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

As long as there are people with more money than sense it's not gonna get any better.

Bold below is separate from the comment above, that's just a general comment regarding high dollar hunts and peeps who pay way too much to lease these tiny plots of land as we've all seen advertised around here and elsewhere.


justinsfa said:


> Corn *(sort of need it)*, protein *(don't need it)*, stands *(don't need them)*, food plots *(don't need them)*, farm implements *(don't need them)*, lodging *(sort of need, sometimes)*, maintenance on all vehicles and facilities *(don't need ranch vehicles or facilities, hunters bring their own)*, taxes *(taxes are on profits only)*, labor *(what labor?)* and ROI *(yep, need that one)*.
> 
> You cant expect a guy to just let you go hunt the deer on his place for FREE!!! Its costing the landowner alot of money to keep his place up.... *(not on the places I hunt, gimme the key and a baron tract of land and that's a little slice of heaven)* and 10 fold if he is managing a deer herd properly....
> 
> ...


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## TRW (Nov 30, 2006)

Brete said:


> You beat me to it......Alot of people want to hunt big deer in south Texas or see a ton of deer in the Hill Country but whine about the high prices. If you really want to hunt there are plenty of opportunities. I have a friend who hunts the national forest every year. He pulls his horse trailer up there to sleep in and kills respectable deer every year for next to nothing.....
> 
> I agree hunting has gotten very expensive but it is what it is......if you really want to hunt and can't afford the high dollar leases get off you're arse and go find the cheaper opportunities....thery're out there....


X2
Trophy hunting cost big bucks.


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## chad (Sep 7, 2006)

You pretty much nailed it justinsfa. I can assure you most ranches aren't making any money on their hunts. They are just trying to offset expenses, and or adding some income to their cattle business so it doesn't look like a hobby.

My opinion on why it still cost several hundred dollars to hunt hogs: Consider it a babysitting fee. Do you think a large ranch wants a bunch of people with guns wandering around the place unsuppervised? We don't sell hog hunts because it is not economically worth the trouble. We only sell a handfull of management buck hunts each year and the hunters are given a 1 on 1 guide who accompanies the hunter at all times while in the field.

I do feel for you on the high cost thing. If I didn't have a great place to hunt I would do a lot of duck hunting in the bay. Another thing you can do is find someone with a ranch and work for hunting. We have several friends that we let hunt on our place for free in return for running tractors and equipment and such.

Get in good with someone who has a ranch and show them that you are a hard worker and trust worthy and you might get yourself an in.


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

You can hunt deer, squirrel, dove, and quail in the Nation Forest for the cost of your license and equipment. You can also hunt ducks on most lakes and costal waters in the state for the same price. Doesn't have to be a rich mans sport. If you enjoy hunting and the outdoors as much as it sounds like you do ..Get'r Done there are plenty of opportunities and don't forget to take your kiddos with ya..Walker


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## waterspout (May 21, 2004)

it cost a lot because high fencing is expensive


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## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

as long as people pay for it, the prices are going to remain up there... I cna't imagine anyone dropping their prices just for the heck of it...


as for ranches not making any money on hunts... I'm not buying that... if they "offset" their expenses, then they are making money... you can't say that ranches like the YO and 777, and alot of these other dollar per inch ranches aren't profitting off their deer herds. I know for a fact what one ranch that is approximately 8000 acres is making... and while it may be "offsetting" his costs... some of his "costs" involved building a new 6500 square foot lodge, putting up new gates that were around 100K, building new roads, and having several multi acre lakes dug... .I don't really see those types of costs as bare bones neccesities...


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## waterspout (May 21, 2004)

Kyle 1974 said:


> as long as people pay for it, the prices are going to remain up there... I cna't imagine anyone dropping their prices just for the heck of it...
> 
> as for ranches not making any money on hunts... I'm not buying that... if they "offset" their expenses, then they are making money... you can't say that ranches like the YO and 777, and alot of these other dollar per inch ranches aren't profitting off their deer herds. I know for a fact what one ranch that is approximately 8000 acres is making... and while it may be "offsetting" his costs... some of his "costs" involved building a new 6500 square foot lodge, putting up new gates that were around 100K, building new roads, and having several multi acre lakes dug... .I don't really see those types of costs as bare bones neccesities...


bet he paid cash off the lease profits at that.


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## 11andy11 (Aug 12, 2004)

its simply suppy and demand. People are willing to pay those prices so thats what drives price up. If people said,"thats too much, I won't pay it", you would see prices plummet. I will say that in Texas high quality hunting is a rich mans sport. Basically its worth what people are willing to pay. In alot of other states the playing field is alot more level and there is a ton of prime public hunting property or everyone has to go through the lottery.


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## michaelbaranowski (May 24, 2004)

*I have very hunted a place that provide corn, protein, food plots, stand or lodging. I have already done that myself. Basically just land that is already used for ranching and that the rancher allows hunters to cover cost of taxes or for him to lease for ranching.*

*In the past I have mostly done most of my hunting on family lease where you take your kids or buddies hunting. *



justinsfa said:


> Now lets be real here folks... it aint cheap to run a place....
> 
> Corn, protein, stands, food plots, farm implements, lodging, maintenance on all vehicles and facilities, taxes, labor and ROI.
> 
> ...


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## 9121SS (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't care about those big $$$$ places. I scout and hunt the National Forest. There are good deer there you just have to work for them as in many hours of scouting. I tell all my friends that I have a 186,000 acre lease and only pay $ 48.00 a year.LOL


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## waterspout (May 21, 2004)

supply and demand is it though,,, people demanding it wil pay! ranchers know this so they supply big deer by high fencing, protein, lodges, guides, Booze whatever you please and can afford... not that many years ago Rock springs had 500 a acre land.. you can't take pictures on a square foot of land there for that now. oh well! as the economy falls thing will tighten,,

Hey,, anyone know if you can move a high fence ranch to India or China???? :biggrin:


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## chad (Sep 7, 2006)

Let's look at this another way....How much do you think an 8,000 acre ranch in South Texas cost? Let's not even mention how much it cost annually to maintain said ranch, and let's not even think about making any money on selling hunts.

For a land owner to allow someone he doesn't know access to his land he is definitely going to make it worth his while. 

It does suck that Texas doesn't have more public hunting opportunities. I have a friend who lived in Tennesee for a while and he hunted some where different every weekend and killed some big bucks. All of the places he hunted were free, or at a minumal fee.


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## cadjockey (Jul 30, 2009)

Funny, I had this discussion with an older gentleman at a cafe in Brownwood the other day. What you need to consider is the financial burden of owning and maintaining a large parcel of land. My father has retired from the farming/ranching business but still lives on the ranch and now leases everything to a gentleman who farms the place and runs cattle. The revenue from the cattle lease just covers our expenses: taxes (still a chunk of change even with an agricultural exemption), maintaining 15+ miles of fence (continuous damage from old age, cattle, floods, fallen trees, hogs, etc), occasional dozer work on tank dams and roads, maintaining barns and pens, controlling those dang mesquite trees...I could go on and on. These expenses are recurring and increase on a yearly basis...just like the price of gas. We've never leased our land to hunters since my brother and myself still hunt the place and my dad isn't very interested in putting up with leasers so we do as Chad described and bring friends and their kids down/up to hunt in trade for fence building, working calves, borrowing their bird dogs, etc. It's been tempting to lease though...some of the offer's we've had from the Metroplex crowd are unbelievable. Still, the cons continue outweigh the pros...at least for us.

Now, I don't know what it costs to run protein feeders, implement a deer breeding program, build high fences, or babysit an army of hunters but I would imagine that when you add these costs into what I pointed out above and consider the influx of affluent city dwellers into the countryside you can begin to see why the days of "affordable" hunting on larger properties are pretty much over...hunt where your budget allows and enjoy yourself.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

We should make a list on what it would cost for a typical ranch to operate.... I dont own a large ranch, nor do I hunt on one... I pay my $480 a year for my no electricity-having, no water available East Texas deer lease, but I have a lot of friends that manage these ranches and also bring my clients to hunt higher profile ranches....

Based on actual knowledge that I have on a high fence place that I frequently bring customers to, these are the costs that are incurred by the ranch.

1) Property - 1700 acres
2) High Fence Construction
3) High Fence Maintenance
4)Lodging - 6 units, sleeping 4-6 people per unit, home amnetities, cable, electricity, furniture
5) Road Maintenance
6) Lake/Pond maintenance, management and feed
7) UTV/ATV purchases, maintenance and fuel
8) Food plots/dove fields - seed, fertilizer, 
9) Tractors and Farm implements - purchase, maintenance, fuel, etc
10) Paychecks for Laborers and Ranch Manager
11) Deer stands
12) Feeders
13) Corn and Protein
14) Good deer genetics (buying and releasing pen deer)
15) Property taxes
16) INSURANCE POLICY!!!!

Say they kill twenty $10,000 deer each year, thats only $200k per year.... 

I dont even see how they can make money on that.... its gotta be a REALLY long term thing I guess....

I mean, the farm equipment alone at that place is probably pushing 400 to 500k purchase price, plus annual maintenance....

50k plus for a ranch mgr.... 30k plus for regular labor... annually.... etc etc etc


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> 50k plus for a ranch mgr.... 30k plus for regular labor... annually.... etc etc etc


Lemme know where to apply and I'm on it.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

justletmein said:


> Lemme know where to apply and I'm on it.


40-50k is pretty typical for a ranch mgr with a wildlife biology degree and that is business savvy....

Plus, the landowner still incurs the cost of a vehicle for the manager, AND they usually cover their housing costs if its on the property....

Aint a bad gig, but the biggest complaint I hear from all my buddies is that they have no life other than deer and food plots... haha


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## Garwood57 (Jul 1, 2007)

If you like bird hunting, the state leases for dove hunting can be good, and relatively cheap, one time permit fee, gasoline, shells...


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## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

justinsfa said:


> Now lets be real here folks... it aint cheap to run a place....
> 
> Corn, protein, stands, food plots, farm implements, lodging, maintenance on all vehicles and facilities, taxes, labor and ROI.
> 
> ...


and that there is the problem. Big horns and the desire to kill them is what got us here.

Whats wrong with doing nothing to a property but shoot what its capable of producing ?
When you start " managing" it becomes a money game, like golf.
When people are willing to pay it wont end.
But this big buck craze hasnt helped either.
Not knocking what you do, I am just as guilty of wanting big bucks.
you gotta pay if you wanna play.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

zrexpilot said:


> .
> you gotta pay if you wanna play.


Thats what it boils down too.... growing big deer is expensive.... theres no way around that....

If you are content with does and smaller bucks, then you can save money....

Guys, its just human nature.... we always want bigger, better, faster....

Thats goes for cars, planes, houses, deer, dogs, TVs, sports figures, etc....

Its been like that forever, so dont plan on it changing.... EVER...

But, my point is, I dont think that prices are all that inflamed... I think $5000 for a mature trophy deer with lodging and food is very fair....

Think about it, it has taken 5.5 years of labor, invesment, feed, etc to get that deer to where it is today.... Have you priced protein lately??? especially year round feeding!!!!

And what happens if that deer dies at 4.5 years old... then you are out ALLLLL the investment that you put in....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

PS.... dont forget that you are paying the same investments on the does too that hold no "trophy" value.... 

So pretty much double your "per deer" expense on each trophy buck


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## BretE (Jan 24, 2008)

not to mention 1700 acres@ $2000 an acre(conservative est.) is $3.4 million......somebody at some point has or had to buy the land....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Thats 340 Trophy deer hunts just to pay off the land! PLUS, dont forget about interest on a loan for 3.4 milli !!!

Sheesh, my brain hurts from these mathematics....


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## Deep Hunter (May 22, 2004)

Take a look at the Los Cazadores contest current leader in the open division. That buck scored 256 or so and was killed on the Nooner ranch. Now go to the Nooner Ranch website and click the tab labeled pricing. Now scroll waaaayyyyy down to the Big Bucks for big bucks and do the math. That buck cost $40,400.00. That is a lot of money for bragging rights for a buck killed in an 1100 acre high fence, but apparently someone paid it.


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## zrexpilot (Jun 14, 2007)

justinsfa said:


> Thats what it boils down too.... growing big deer is expensive.... theres no way around that....
> Guys, its just human nature.... we always want bigger, better, faster....
> 
> Thats goes for cars, planes, houses, deer, dogs, TVs, sports figures, etc....
> ...


I am guilty of that too. I drag race a motorcycle, this year I built a motor for it, 4K in it, and blew it the 3rd time at the track.


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## dlbpjb (Oct 9, 2009)

And someone will always pay it, just like justinsfa pointed out. Yes they do have all these expenses.
On the other hand if they didn't make money why would they do it? They are making money don't kid yourself. 
I have visited a couple and paid the fees, nothing crazy, but I have put my money where my mouth is. Plain and simple, pay if you want to play, if not there are some really low cost places to hunt as well. 
I for one am looking for that family lease, just miss hanging out with the family and enjoying the true meaning of hunting.


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## Texas Jeweler (Nov 6, 2007)

Were I to own ranch property in South Texas, I can make more money on deer than I can cattle. Trick is to keep expenses down, not have a bunch of undesirables or pushy hunters. I had a guy tell a rancher he needed to run less cattle (and he really did need to cut back) on the ranch. Lock got changed the next week and adios!

Fence is about $15,000/per mile of 4 strand barbed wire with T-post. 

It is just a larger expense than many of us whom are economically embarrassed can endure. I luv to hunt ducks so much, I went in with a group and bought a place south of Winnie. Got covered up by Ike, we have not been able to do much on it since. Salt is a problem for us, rain has been scarce untill this month and it is just not going the direction I would wish to take it for now.

Now, let me show you a really scarry item. If you run livestock, you have to have an inventory, just as you do any business. What if the State finally gave thought to, "Ya know, that old boy raises deer behind a high fence, sell them for oddles per inch and pays zero on them! Maybe we can use that extra income from his animal husbandry! Go do a deer count, and send him a bill!"


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## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> We should make a list on what it would cost for a typical ranch to operate.... I dont own a large ranch, nor do I hunt on one... I pay my $480 a year for my no electricity-having, no water available East Texas deer lease, but I have a lot of friends that manage these ranches and also bring my clients to hunt higher profile ranches....
> 
> Based on actual knowledge that I have on a high fence place that I frequently bring customers to, these are the costs that are incurred by the ranch.
> 
> ...


can I be your tractor salesman?

half a million for equipment for 1700 acres?

as for these land costs that everyone is posting... I guess if you assume someone goes out and buys property, yes it will probably cost some coin. I suppose none of these game ranches have been handed down through different generations though..Most of these big ranches have been in families for years, the land cost is not a regular incurring payment.

That's not mentioning land that is leased for cattle rights or mineral rights


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Kyle 1974 said:


> can I be your tractor salesman?
> 
> half a million for equipment for 1700 acres? I *highly* doubt that...
> 
> as for these land costs that everyone is posting... I guess if you assume someone goes out and buys property, yes it will probably cost some coin. I suppose none of these game ranches have been handed down through different generations though..


I guess I should note that they do alot of planting for dove hunting, so yes, this particular place DOES have alot of farming equipment.... heck, this place has 75k in Polaris Rangers and Mules alone!

Plus, they have a dozer for road maintenance....

To level out the cost field, 1700 acres is a pretty small tract of land anyway....

As far as the handing down of land goes, well, i guess you could start looking at all kinds of different scenarios.... maybe they bought used farming equipment.... maybe their brother in law cut them a deal on building the lodge.... maybe the owner has 17 sons that built the fences by hand for free.... who knows....


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## LandPirate (Jun 5, 2009)

We have a small family place in San Saba Co. Only 300 acres. Taxes are about $1500/year. We lease grass rights to a local rancher and we get enough to pay taxes and set some aside for repairs and improvements. 

We have an old Ford 9N tractor to do most of the work. We all pitched in and built a 20x20 cabin with corrugated sides and roof and a concrete floor. It ain't fancy but it's warm and dry. 

We built our own deer stands and feeders aren't that expensive. We buy corn directly from a farmer at half the price of corn from a feed store or bagged corn. 

Point is that it's not that expensive to run and operate such a place. But if you check ads for deer leasing on such a place the land owner will want 5 hunters for at least $1500/gun or more. And there are no trophy deer on the place, haven't been since God was a Corporal (thanks to idiot neighbors and idiot hunters from the Dallas area that shoot anything in sight). 

In my opinion that amount of money is too much for what you get. I refuse to pay it. I danged sure won't pay several thousands of dollars to hunt "trophy" deer. Heck, it ain't worth my time or effort to hunt my own property and it's "free". Instead, I hunt a small 80 acre track 5 minutes from my house. It's free too and I kill bigger deer.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> I guess I should note that they do alot of planting for dove hunting, so yes, this particular place DOES have alot of farming equipment.... heck, this place has 75k in Polaris Rangers and Mules alone!
> 
> Plus, they have a dozer for road maintenance....
> 
> ...


There is a reason they have all that equipment and it's not out of necessity, it's because they're making good money (I sure as hell don't blame them) and if they spend it on the ranch it's deductible but if they don't they pay taxes. If I make extra money I'm buying hunting stuff anyway, so the opportunity to buy all sorts of stuff and deduct it is just too good to pass up. :cheers:


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

justletmein said:


> There is a reason they have all that equipment and it's not out of necessity, it's because they're making good money (I sure as hell don't blame them) and if they spend it on the ranch it's deductible but if they don't they pay taxes. If I make extra money I'm buying hunting stuff anyway, so the opportunity to buy all sorts of stuff and deduct it is just too good to pass up. :cheers:


Oh ya.... any farm stuff is good on the pocket book.

Thats why all the farmers I know have all KINDS of expensive stuff... cuz they can write it off.... They dont make that much money, they just dont have to shovel out the money like the rest of us....

I would like to see some financials on some of these ranches with hunting opertations though.... it would be interesting.... I will see what I can come up with over the next week or so...


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## LilWhit (Sep 30, 2007)

Holy Cow!!!!!!! I didn't expect this much of a response, especially this quick......thank all ya'll sooo much for you input and experienced knowledge. Understand it a little better but still seems real costly to me, must be cheap, hahaha. Going to have to explore the public land hunting more.

Well since this has had a decent response I have another question for the experienced folk here. How do you feel about paying for a hunting package or whatever it may be called and then not being able to harvest what you have already paid for?????

Now I understand that there is no promise of getting anything and things are out of the control of the guide and all but isn't part of the price you are paying is conditioning the animals to come to a certain area so they can be patterned and greatly increase the chances of success?(Corn, feed, or food plots) Missing a shot or not taking a shot is one thing but when a "guide" picks where you go and what times, most everything is taken out of the hunters hands.

I ask this because I recently went on a hunt and was unable to harvest what I paid for and it is really bothering me. I "paid for" 3 animals and only saw one(which was not able to find after shooting, and I understand that and can see being charged for it) the rest of the time I was taken to places where I saw nothing I could take a shot at.

So just curious what other folk think, is it fair I had to pay for 2 animals I never even saw? When where I hunted and when was being dictated by someone else. 

Thank you very much from an inexperienced hunter.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Tell us what you bought.... Species, area of country, number of hunters, high fence, etc...

I would ask how much, because that will be the tell-tale sign of the whole deal, but thats a little personal, so feel free to disregard that info if you think it is too intrusive....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Without that knowledge, I can tell you about the package hunts and seeing deer on them...

The managers of the property spend ALOT of time out there, where as your weekend only hunters on their leases only show up for about 3 months a year, and normally only on the weekends....

So, and I know there are exceptions, BUT, I would venture to say that most deer hunters who have their own lease probably spend about 15-20 days or less a year on the ground.... whereas a hunting outfit will spend 3-4 days a week out there, and thats year round.... so they spend 150-200 days a year.... Note, thats a REALLY conservative number....

A high profile outfit will spend 300+days on the property.... prepping, scouting, maintaining, etc...

Now you can see the difference...

By putting in this time in the field, they pattern their animals much more precisely.... Now, I wont say that they dont CONTROL their patterns by feeding and such.... but, the success of a hunt determines whether you have a repeat customer, and much more important, whether you have a good reputation...

Would you rather go on a ranch with a 90 percent success rate or a 50 percent success rate???

Since you mentioned that you are a novice hunter, Im hoping that someone didnt get you on one of those day hunt deals....


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> Oh ya.... any farm stuff is good on the pocket book.
> 
> Thats why all the farmers I know have all KINDS of expensive stuff... cuz they can write it off.... They dont make that much money, they just dont have to shovel out the money like the rest of us....
> 
> I would like to see some financials on some of these ranches with hunting opertations though.... it would be interesting.... I will see what I can come up with over the next week or so...


I have a couple, actually 3 different friends that guide on 3 different ranches. One primarily exotics, the other two on trophy high fence whitetail gigs. All 3 of them tell me they pull in some major coin, one of the WT operations seems like it doesn't do as well as the other WT and exotics place though.



LilWhit said:


> Well since this has had a decent response I have another question for the experienced folk here. How do you feel about paying for a hunting package or whatever it may be called and then not being able to harvest what you have already paid for?????


IMO if there's no chance of "failure" then it's not a "hunt" but rather a "shoot" you're going on. I'm not in to shoots, but then I'm more of a DIY kind of guy. Don't get me wrong, I love to fish with a guide too, but I just don't get that same sense of accomplishment as when I go out and find the fish myself. I could catch one keeper trout and a bunch of dinks on my own and be happier than a full stringer with a guide, one solid 8 point that I bust my tail for all year long setting up my own stands and feeders and doing all the scouting would please me more than a really solid deer that I just foot the bill for and go out and shoot. Nothing wrong with it, that's just me. My favorite most memorable hunts were from last year when I ran around on public land with my bow, didn't kill squat until the end when I got an Auodad but every trip was absolutely fantastic.


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## Kyle 1974 (May 10, 2006)

justinsfa said:


> I guess I should note that they do alot of planting for dove hunting, so yes, this particular place DOES have alot of farming equipment.... heck, this place has 75k in Polaris Rangers and Mules alone!
> 
> Plus, they have a dozer for road maintenance....
> 
> ...


 yep... lots of possibilities on how much they're spending... but they all charge by the inch! :biggrin:


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

The exotics allow the ranches to extend their seasons to year round so there wont be a lull in the money stream coming in.... plus it gives you a little something to spice things up a bit....

Alot of the hunt is about the experience... The ranch that we take clients to is run by some really good people and has excellent facilities.... The managers of the place are hilarious and very entertaining.... and the facilities are comfortable, including FULL covered parking.... its the best part, trust me...

I dont think I could shoot a tagged deer..... well, i could, but I wouldnt volunteer to put my funds into a hunt like that.... I can tell you first hand though.... its really tough to be sitting there with all kinds of huge deer in front of you and you cannot afford to shoot them... For example, this deer.... I took this photo through my scope... the deer was only 2.5 years old... and at max potential, it will probably over $10k to kill... Now, if this deer had been of age, I would have had a tough time with not being able to shoot it cuz my wallet wasnt fat enough










I spend my personal money on a lease so I can decide what lives and perishes...

But, then again, in the last 9 years, I have only killed 2 deer that met my requirements for hanging on the wall...

I would guess I spend 2000 a year on deer hunting, between gas and equipment, leases and travel trailer, etc....

So, essentially, these deer cost me $9000 each, plus my time, effort, blood, sweat and tears.... currency wise, I lost on the deal.... but then again, my 11 pointer is the story I tell over every other story in my arsenal....

Both of these $9000 deer would cost maybe $2500 as management deer from a hunting operation.....


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## LilWhit (Sep 30, 2007)

In response to where and what I was hunting:

I was out in west Texas(not going to mention name of the ranch cause don't want to drag them into anything) and had a package for 3 Whitetail doe(they have the special doe permit) and any and all varmit I could see for only $600. I think that is an extremely good price, but like I said only saw 1 doe to take a shot at over the three days and no varmit at all. I was alone but everyone else on the ranch seemed to have the luck and pretty much got what they came for.

Now I agree with you *justletmein *about "hunt" and "shoot" thing and doing it yourself, but just not an option for me right now. I too think the harder you work the more its work. As far as fishing goes I'm there(haven't bought bait in years, and never used a guide and always catch a meal when I go) Just going out and sitting in a pre-set blind waiting for a feeder to go off attracting game just doesn't seem like hunting to me, but thats all I had a chance for, going to have to do the national forest trekking.

And it is absolute torture to have to sit and watch trophies walk because you can't afford it, saw a monster Fallow buck that dwarfed anything I have ever seen, real or pictures, but thats all I could do because it would have cost thousands to drop him, almost cried...hahaha.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Wait, you went on a doe hunt and didnt see any?????????

Whoa.... something is fishy there....

When I was little and my dad and I first started hunting, before we got on a lease, my dad brought me to Cotulla, the DEER HUNTING CAPITOL OF THE WORLD, on a day lease for a birthday present... $200 per day, no kill fees or lodging.... Lets just say, I saw one deer at about 300 yards.... in 3 days..... they saw us coming

I think its really strange that you didnt see any does.... thats actually very rare


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## LilWhit (Sep 30, 2007)

I saw the one doe I took the shot at and then 2-3 off in the distance running or trotting along...but half of the hunts I did not see a single Whitetail doe....I was amazed. Like I said every other hunter there seemed to have them in close, guess just some horrible luck.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

No man, thats not bad luck....

Thats just not normal....

Was it high fenced???


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## LilWhit (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes sir it sure was high fenced.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Yikes.... Did you see alot of whitetail bucks?


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## LilWhit (Sep 30, 2007)

Oh ya saw a good amount of bucks.....everything from spikes to 8-10 pointers, young to mature. Also so an insane amount of exotics.....Fallow, Sika, and even one Black Buck doe. Just not enough of what I could afford hahahaha.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

hmmmm... sounds like it may be just mismanaged.... 

The price was about right, but I just find it crazy that you didnt see any does.... was it a big place?


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## LilWhit (Sep 30, 2007)

It was a huge ranch...don't remember the exact acerage but it was pretty dang big, and like I said just about everyone else I talked to seemed to get what they came for so they have a decent herd. 

Just seemes messed up to me that I paided full price for pretty much nothing, correct me if I'm wrong please. I understand nothing is guaranteed, and it worked out great for them...100% profit...but if no service was rendered why should I be charged the full amount?


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## Tsip (May 21, 2004)

> I do feel for you on the high cost thing. If I didn't have a great place to hunt I would do a lot of duck hunting in the bay. Another thing you can do is find someone with a ranch and work for hunting. We have several friends that we let hunt on our place for free in return for running tractors and equipment and such.
> 
> Get in good with someone who has a ranch and show them that you are a hard worker and trust worthy and you might get yourself an in.


This is the best advice on the thread. I have 5 ranches I have full time hunting and camping access to that I don't "pay" for. Trust me, I end up paying in corn, equipment, etc., to keep it going, but I trade work for rights. Now, none of these are huge high fenced south Texas spreads, they range from 30 to 300 acres, but they are a place I can escape to, a place I can take my kids to learn the art and tradition and share in the experience. But trust me, when a fence needs mending, or a field needs shredding, or brush needs clearing, or cows need worming, or whatever...I'm there to put in the time. You have to find a way to be an asset to the landowner, not just a possible liability.

That's how us average folk pay for a lease, otherwise I wouldn't be able to enjoy this past time either.

Tsip


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## let's go (Nov 14, 2005)

My answer to the insanity was to go out and buy my own place. It isn't much and I'll never have huge bucks behind every bush, but it's mine and I can hunt, camp or run around butt-naked on it anytime I want. My own little piece of heaven.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

let's go said:


> My answer to the insanity was to go out and buy my own place. It isn't much and I'll never have huge bucks behind every bush, but it's mine and I can hunt, camp or *run around butt-naked on it anytime I want*. My own little piece of heaven.


Doesnt everybody do that even if they are leasing the property?? I thought that was normal practice!!!

I even have a some background banjo music that magically starts playing when I run through the woods... .


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## Bukkskin (Oct 21, 2009)

justinsfa said:


> Doesnt everybody do that even if they are leasing the property?? I thought that was normal practice!!!
> 
> I even have a some background banjo music that magically starts playing when I run through the woods... .


X2


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## John Galt (Aug 6, 2006)

justletmein said:


> There is a reason they have all that equipment and it's not out of necessity, it's because they're making good money (I sure as hell don't blame them) _*and if they spend it on the ranch it's deductible but if they don't they pay taxes*_. If I make extra money I'm buying hunting stuff anyway, so the opportunity to buy all sorts of stuff and deduct it is just too good to pass up. :cheers:


You want to spend $1.00 so you can avoid paying $0.35 in taxes? Makes sense...do you run a business?


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## rio frio (Jan 12, 2005)

Boy does this thread have some Opinions......now I'm gonna stay out of all this BS but lets get 1 thing straight....it hasn't ALWAYS been like this(expensive)...some of us are old enough to remember deer hunting in Texas before it was prostituded....that was before straws of semen,bucks with cute little names like "stickers"/high fences/deer Importation/deer wern't measured by their "G's"/corporations willing to spend any amount for some clown to shoot a trophy so they can obtain business(and use the tax write off).That was back when a ranchers handshake was his BOND.....sorry you boys missed it


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## Rubberback (Sep 9, 2008)

rio frio said:


> Boy does this thread have some Opinions......now I'm gonna stay out of all this BS but lets get 1 thing straight....it hasn't ALWAYS been like this(expensive)...some of us are old enough to remember deer hunting in Texas before it was prostituded....that was before straws of semen,bucks with cute little names like "stickers"/high fences/deer Importation/deer wern't measured by their "G's"/corporations willing to spend any amount for some clown to shoot a trophy so they can obtain business(and use the tax write off).That was back when a ranchers handshake was his BOND.....sorry you boys missed it


Amen!!


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## RAYSOR (Apr 26, 2007)

chad said:


> You pretty much nailed it justinsfa. I can assure you most ranches aren't making any money on their hunts. They are just trying to offset expenses, and or adding some income to their cattle business so it doesn't look like a hobby.
> 
> My opinion on why it still cost several hundred dollars to hunt hogs: Consider it a babysitting fee. Do you think a large ranch wants a bunch of people with guns wandering around the place unsuppervised? We don't sell hog hunts because it is not economically worth the trouble. We only sell a handfull of management buck hunts each year and the hunters are given a 1 on 1 guide who accompanies the hunter at all times while in the field.
> 
> ...


I am the same way Chad, I own a south tx ranch for myself and my two boys, we do not charge for hunts and let friends come and help with a few chores and deer mgt,the cost of owning a ranch is staggering and if most owners sat down with some one and show them some figures they would say the price is cheap in relation to the cost.


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## steverino (Mar 8, 2006)

*Crazy?*

I think you get the idea-the reason that there are crazy prices is that there are some crazy people willing to pay those prices!!! On corporate leases the local president/manager just makes a business decision to get one and just needs to convince (justify to) the owner or CEO that it more than pays for itself by the business it brings in from the invited guests. Right now we are in some tough economic times and many of these companies can no longer justify the total cost of a lease with maintenance! It ain't gonna git any better!!!! The ironic thing is that on most of the hunts that I've been invited to on corporate leases the employees and their friends and relatives far outnumbered the invited customers!!! Maybe I should have kept that secret a secret!!!!! LMVVVFAO!!!!


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

John Galt said:


> You want to spend $1.00 so you can avoid paying $0.35 in taxes? Makes sense...do you run a business?


You completely ignored the point of the post, but ended up proving my point anyway. Thx


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## let's go (Nov 14, 2005)

rio frio said:


> Boy does this thread have some Opinions......now I'm gonna stay out of all this BS but lets get 1 thing straight....it hasn't ALWAYS been like this(expensive)...some of us are old enough to remember deer hunting in Texas before it was prostituded....that was before straws of semen,bucks with cute little names like "stickers"/high fences/deer Importation/deer wern't measured by their "G's"/corporations willing to spend any amount for some clown to shoot a trophy so they can obtain business(and use the tax write off).That was back when a ranchers handshake was his BOND.....sorry you boys missed it


Yep, I also liked it better when we killed an 8 point, 10 point or maybe something crazy like a 13 point instead of a 138 1/2 or 173 1/8. Too many folks have lost sight of the real meaning of hunting.

For me, it isn't a contest, it is a way of life. It's being in the woods at daylight, it's being at deer camp with your buddies, it's sitting in my deer stand for the first time with my daughter and her getting to watch a momma bobcat with three babies. I don't classify myself as a meat hunter nor horn gatherer. I try to kill mature animals and manage the resource in the best way I know how. If my deer happens to have nice head gear I'll proudly show it off and I'll **** sure eat every bit of meat from a kill.

The good hard-working ranches who are managing their deer herds like cattle and charging these huge fees aren't necesarily the real problem in my eyes. They are supplying something that there is a demand for. I personally won't be paying thousands of dollars to shoot a deer, but I know there are many folks out there who will. Just like I won't be paying a hooker for sex, but there are many who will. I also won't judge, it's their money and their choice in either instance.

The real problem that has pushed hunting prices to the brink of insanity for the average guy are all of the do-nothing ranchers who over-charge just because they have one of the deer factory ranches nearby or because somebody shot a good deer on their place the previous year or their area is known to occassionally produce a good buck.

On our final lease, my dad and I along with some close friends were taking good care of the herd on a rather large place. First couple years does and spikes, letting the bucks get some age. We also worked on the rancher's roads, fixed some fence after a flood when he was down sick, fixed up the bunk house, etc, etc. We were good tenants and treated the place as if it were our own.

Four years in we started seeing some decent mature bucks and took a few weird culls. Fifth year we killed a couple nice bucks for the area. At the end of the season the owner called me and wanted double what we had been paying, which was already slightly higher than some other nearby ranches. I drove out there to have a talk with him. After a while he admitted that there was another group from a neighboring ranch who had come in and offered him double what we were paying. I walked away and wished him luck knowing what kind of people they were likely going to be. The following year the rancher called me back whining about how he had screwed up and these guys were terrible about following rules, cleaning up after themselves, etc, etc. He had the nerve to ask me if I wanted to come back. Not no, but hell no.

Whatever their reasoning, I've watched the prices climb to ridiculous levels for ****-ant little pieces of property where you'd be lucky to take a fork-horn. Again it is supply and demand, so half the blame goes to the folks willing to pay $2500-$4000 dollars to go hunt antlered greyhounds. I just don't get it.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

LilWhit said:


> I think that is an extremely good price, but like I said only saw 1 doe to take a shot at over the three days and no varmit at all. I was alone but everyone else on the ranch seemed to have the luck and pretty much got what they came for.


Maybe you got dry holed. The other guys may have been locals, had a tie in with the landowner, etc., and got put on better spots.

I'm not a deer hunting expert but I have noticed, and heard from better deer hunters, that under some circumstances those old baldies get harder to hunt than the bucks. Maybe they were seeing you/winding you first, is why you didn't see more. Maybe the other guys hunting were better at seeing deer partially in cover. It is a skill developed over time.

The fact you shot a deer that was not retrieved, and that the other people hunting the ranch killed pretty much out, indicates to me that you may be new to the game and your hunting skills aren't highly developed.

I didn't notice your age but it seems you're a young man.

You may have got a raw deal but at this point I kind of doubt it. Possibly a little bit of luck and a little bit of undeveloped hunting skills.


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