# Another dead tarpon?



## Trouthappy

From the latest Port O'Connor newspaper:

This 7 ft., approx. 200 lb. tarpon was caught and released in the bay on November 4, 2015. Pictured are Mike Mackey and Matt Boettcher, who, along with Mikeâ€™s wife Lori were enjoying another fishing trip in Port Oâ€™Connor. The Mackeys have been fishing POC for the past 16 years. The tarpon was on their â€œbucket listâ€. They hooked one about three years ago, but it shook off before they could land it. â€œWe love the people and the fishing in Port Oâ€™Connor,â€ Lori says.


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## JFolm

Go find it and ask how it's doing.


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## snapperlicious

I bet you've taken a picture of a fish out of water before


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## Trouthappy

No way to bear-hug a big live tarpon without getting knocked overboard. Hard on those shirts, too.


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## Scott

Thanks to all the internet pictures of others doing this. People just don't know and think it is okay. Unfortunate. A little surprised about time and report. Bay temps were pretty cold by then.


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## rmp

Rest easy, that tarpon swam away fine.


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## mikedeleon

Just my 2 cents, but having been involved with trips where satellite tags are put on fish such as these, data and GPS movements show that these tarpon can sit for days after being caught. In places like Florida where sharks are prevalent this can be bad news for a resting fish. Just because it swam away fine doesn't really mean a thing. Everyone is different, it's just a matter of doing what you can in the moment. 

Scott you might be able to expand on that more. 

Pretty nice fish though.


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## Scott

mikedeleon said:


> Just my 2 cents, but having been involved with trips where satellite tags are put on fish such as these, data and GPS movements show that these tarpon can sit for days after being caught. In places like Florida where sharks are prevalent this can be bad news for a resting fish. Just because it swam away fine doesn't really mean a thing. Everyone is different, it's just a matter of doing what you can in the moment.
> 
> Scott you might be able to expand on that more.
> 
> Pretty nice fish though.


Rogo - swimming away fine is an old wives tale. Means nothing. I have released fish with satellite tags that swam away fine and died immediately. I have also released fish that I was convinced would die and didn't. The bottom line is that you have to give it the best chance. There is a reason Florida has outlawed removing large tarpon from the water for a photo. The biologist convinced state wildlife managers of the highly increased level of mortality following lifting a large tarpon out of the water. Doing so causes the release of stress hormones and other acids into the blood stream. While the fish may look good on release, the end result may be mortality from the stress or actual damage to internal organs. Best to leave it in the water and give it the best chance possible. Did this fish die? Well, the fish is likely the only one that knows the answer to that question, however, I can say as a matter of fact, his chances of dying increased exponentially by lifting it out of the water. I will again say, that I don't think it's these anglers' fault. They didn't likely know any better and with all the BS tarpon photos around with people doing this for years in Florida, how would they know any better.

You can get just as good a photo with the fish in the water. Go look at Mark Bennett's instagram page and you'll see http://www.instagram.com/capt.markbennett/


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## TrueblueTexican

*Quit fishing*

Catch and release mortality in most finfish approaches 70%. If you feel good releasing a fish, raising it up, lip gaffing --- on and on that's your business. If you don't like the way a fish is handled, if its lack of education , respectfully educate. Sharks get a good meal most times a tarpon is released after a protracted fight - and overall eat far more tarpon that have not been hooked.

I release all fish we catch, have killed far more, and we never lip gaffed as some insist its ok, we also at times remove fish from the water for hero pics - its ALL good -

Except for a few places in Florida and Mexico the angler impact on Tarpon is relatively low -

Its a sport fish, if you don't like the blood sports , go chase a little white ball.


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## Meadowlark

TrueblueTexican said:


> Catch and release mortality in most finfish approaches 70%. ....


Your level of ignorance is surpassed only by your eagerness to show it.

Show me your data. Everything I read and see visually is completely contrary to your 70% mortality claim.

Here are just a few:

Preliminary results indicate about a *90% survival rate* for released tarpon in the Tampa Bay area.
http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/tarpon/catch-release/tampa-bay-study/


Controlled studies have shown that most fish released after hook-and-line capture, survive. Researchers working in Boca Grande Pass tagged *27 tarpon with sonic transmitters and found that 26 of these hook-and-line-caught fish survived*.

http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/fish/snook/reduce-catch-release-mortality/

Bonefish in the Florida Keys have a *95 percent survival rate* upon release [source: Fish and Wildlife Research Institute]. *Eighty-four percent of redfish* in Georgia and *96 percent of redfish* in Texas live after release. And in California, *95 percent of brown trout* that are released survive [source: Dahlberg].

considerable scientific is data available on this topic. Paul Riess, et al summarized 82 studies analyzing catch and release mortality. Post-release mortality ranged from *0.2% to 5.8% with an average post-release mortality of 2.76%.*
http://www.turneffeatoll.org/tat-action-plan/most-catch-release-mortality-at-turneffe

Of the 82 tagged tarpon, 11 suffered mortality as inferred from movement patterns (or lack thereof) or visual confirmation (i.e. shark attacks) which yields a combined total estimated catch-and-release *mortality rate of 13% (95% confidence interval: 6-21%). *
Evaluating Lethal and SubLethal Effects of Catch-and-Release Angling in Florida's Central Gulf Coast Recreational Atlantic Tarpon (Megalops atlanticus) Fishery. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...l_Atlantic_Tarpon_Megalops_atlanticus_Fishery [accessed Feb 10, 2016].


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## Scott

Meadowlark said:


> Your level of ignorance is surpassed only by your eagerness to show it.
> 
> Show me your data. Everything I read and see visually is completely contrary to your 70% mortality claim.
> 
> Here are just a few:
> 
> Preliminary results indicate about a *90% survival rate* for released tarpon in the Tampa Bay area.
> http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/tarpon/catch-release/tampa-bay-study/
> 
> 
> Controlled studies have shown that most fish released after hook-and-line capture, survive. Researchers working in Boca Grande Pass tagged *27 tarpon with sonic transmitters and found that 26 of these hook-and-line-caught fish survived*.
> 
> http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/fish/snook/reduce-catch-release-mortality/
> 
> Bonefish in the Florida Keys have a *95 percent survival rate* upon release [source: Fish and Wildlife Research Institute]. *Eighty-four percent of redfish* in Georgia and *96 percent of redfish* in Texas live after release. And in California, *95 percent of brown trout* that are released survive [source: Dahlberg].
> 
> considerable scientific is data available on this topic. Paul Riess, et al summarized 82 studies analyzing catch and release mortality. Post-release mortality ranged from *0.2% to 5.8% with an average post-release mortality of 2.76%.*
> http://www.turneffeatoll.org/tat-action-plan/most-catch-release-mortality-at-turneffe
> 
> Of the 82 tagged tarpon, 11 suffered mortality as inferred from movement patterns (or lack thereof) or visual confirmation (i.e. shark attacks) which yields a combined total estimated catch-and-release *mortality rate of 13% (95% confidence interval: 6-21%). *
> Evaluating Lethal and SubLethal Effects of Catch-and-Release Angling in Florida's Central Gulf Coast Recreational Atlantic Tarpon (Megalops atlanticus) Fishery. Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publica...l_Atlantic_Tarpon_Megalops_atlanticus_Fishery [accessed Feb 10, 2016].


Good stuff. :doowapsta


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## SharkBait >*)\\\><(

if i ever catch one like that i want to get in the water with it, and hope to not get bullsharked.


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## TrueblueTexican

*I said finfish overall*



Meadowlark said:


> Your level of ignorance is surpassed only by your eagerness to show it.
> 
> Show me your data. Everything I read and see visually is completely contrary to your 70% mortality claim.
> 
> Here are just a few:
> 
> Preliminary results indicate about a *90% survival rate* for released tarpon in the Tampa Bay area.
> http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/tarpon/catch-release/tampa-bay-study/
> 
> 
> Controlled studies have shown that most fish released after hook-and-line capture, survive. Researchers working in Boca Grande Pass tagged *27 tarpon with sonic transmitters and found that 26 of these hook-and-line-caught fish survived*.
> 
> http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/fish/snook/reduce-catch-release-mortality/
> 
> Bonefish in the Florida Keys have a *95 percent survival rate* upon release [source: Fish and Wildlife Research Institute]. *Eighty-four percent of redfish* in Georgia and *96 percent of redfish* in Texas live after release. And in California, *95 percent of brown trout* that are released survive [source: Dahlberg].
> 
> considerable scientific is data available on this topic. Paul Riess, et al summarized 82 studies analyzing catch and release mortality. Post-release mortality ranged from *0.2% to 5.8% with an average post-release mortality of 2.76%.*
> http://www.turneffeatoll.org/tat-action-plan/most-catch-release-mortality-at-turneffe
> 
> Of the 82 tagged tarpon, 11 suffered mortality as inferred from movement patterns (or lack thereof) or visual confirmation (i.e. shark attacks) which yields a combined total estimated catch-and-release *mortality rate of 13% (95% confidence interval: 6-21%). *
> Evaluating Lethal and SubLethal Effects of Catch-and-Release Angling in Florida's Central Gulf Coast Recreational Atlantic Tarpon (Megalops atlanticus) Fishery. Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publica...l_Atlantic_Tarpon_Megalops_atlanticus_Fishery [accessed Feb 10, 2016].


A real scientific study of [email protected] mortality and methods

http://www3.carleton.ca/fecpl/pdfs/Bartholomew Review.pdf

Careful handling of any fish increases the odds - but the AVERAGE angler is unlikely to go to such length out of ignorance of the requirements - Florida does a good job protecting Tarpon - but I have seen so many big hammers eat hooked and released tarpon its isn't funny -

My premise is that ANY fish REMOVED from the water after a fight, lessens chances for survival - but I have NO BEEF with someone who kills a tarpon. In Texas its pretty much a small cadre of folks who have taken the time to find and catch em - and reality is that most are migrating fish - no homebodys here like in Florida - so C&R gives ya the warm fuzzies, that's great -- its a fish eat fish environment

Carry on I am just a realist -


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## Meadowlark

TrueblueTexican said:


> Catch and release mortality in most finfish approaches 70%. ....


 So you make a statement without any supporting factsâ€¦and then claim to back it up with a study which totally destroys your statement.

Did you even read your reference?

It said : "A meta-analysis of combined data (n=274) showed a skewed distribution of release mortality median 11%"

How exactly did you go from 11% mortality to your claim of 70%?

C&R works. Period. Only a fool would claim otherwise.


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## Permit Rat

Thank you for all that Meadowlark. I would have expected a high survival rate from tarpon caught on the mid-upper west coast of Florida, because they predominantly use heavier tackle in that area and the fish are caught and released in less time than the light tackle and fly fishermen of the southern coast, Everglades and Keys. But 26 out of 27 is outstanding. I would have thought the sharks would have accounted for a much greater percentage of mortality.

Don't even talk about Mexico. In Veracruz, their successful tournament is still a kill tournament and I refuse to participate in it. They tried to have a release tournament one year, but it had to be canceled due to lack of interest. Same goes for the marlin tournaments....all kill. 

I also still use a lip gaff for big tarpon. BUT....I have a special gaff with very small diameter wire and 3" bite as the hook and I also have a technique that gets that hook in the very front of the mouth, so there is no tearing. I also release the gaff as soon as the fly is removed. A lot of people were using their standard kill gaffs, made with up to 1/2 inch steel (some with barbs) and putting it through the jaw instead of into the body of the fish, like they did in the old days. Using these old gaffs and haphazard techniques are sure to significantly tear the lower palate of the fish.


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## Meadowlark

That is amazing Rat that today they would still have kill tournaments in Veracruz. I've heard stories about how they use Tarpon for fertilizers there...is there any truth to those stories? 

Just "down" the coast to Campeche the folks there have a totally different attitude. They protect those juvenile Tarpon with a fervor. I have released countless Tarpon there and firmly believe the survival rate was approaching 100%. Not many big sharks around to get them and the guides understand how to handle them. Makes a huge difference.


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## Scott

Yes. They still have kill tournaments in Mexico where they give away cars for prizes. In one tournament they killed 6 tons of tarpon. Every one of those large tarpon swim through Texas.


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## Permit Rat

Other than Veracruz, I don't know of any other locales with tarpon tournaments, so they must be talking about Veracruz in Scott's link. Not too long ago they gave away a Dodge pick-up as the grand prize and other winners received Rolex watches.

I think one way to at least get the hint across, would be to contact all the sponsors and make them aware of what they are doing. Rolex especially is big into sports and I believe they have no idea they are supporting a gamefish kill tournament. Then put the pressure on GM, Ford and Dodge....all the car companies that do business in Mexico. Make sure the Mexicans know WHY they are retracting their sponsorship, if in fact they do so.


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## Animal Chris

Permit Rat said:


> Other than Veracruz, I don't know of any other locales with tarpon tournaments


 Tecolutla and Tampico still hold tournaments, with the Tampico tournament being the one of the oldest going anywhere. Both right on the path to Texas.


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## Permit Rat

Animal Chris said:


> Tecolutla and Tampico still hold tournaments, with the Tampico tournament being the one of the oldest going anywhere. Both right on the path to Texas.


Yeah, I remembered Tampico, after I posted. Didn't know about Tecolutla. I'll be passing through there tomorrow, with my skiff in tow (with the Grace of God)

I was also going to post that the tournament in Veracruz has been a bust, at least fish-wise, in the past few years. Veracruz is at the very bottom of the Texas-Mexico migration and the fish turn around here and work their way back north. I'm thinking that in a warm Winter/Spring, they might turn around a bit further north, most fish never getting to Veracruz....but can't say for sure.

But that's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## texasislandboy

Permit Rat said:


> Yeah, I remembered Tampico, after I posted. Didn't know about Tecolutla. I'll be passing through there tomorrow, with my skiff in tow (with the Grace of God)
> 
> I was also going to post that the tournament in Veracruz has been a bust, at least fish-wise, in the past few years. Veracruz is at the very bottom of the Texas-Mexico migration and the fish turn around here and work their way back north. I'm thinking that in a warm Winter/Spring, they might turn around a bit further north, most fish never getting to Veracruz....but can't say for sure.
> 
> But that's my story and I'm sticking to it.


Best of luck on the ride back up. Be safe!


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## Scott

Permit Rat said:


> Veracruz is at the very bottom of the Texas-Mexico migration and the fish turn around here and work their way back north. I'm thinking that in a warm Winter/Spring, they might turn around a bit further north, most fish never getting to Veracruz....but can't say for sure.


Actually, your assumption on the migration is not correct. Sorry. They go past Veracruz in the winter. The reason the tournament has been a bust is because the fish have come through there earlier than the tournament. I know folks that fish down there all the time and keep track of the migration patterns.

Here is the science - http://www.itarpon.org/western-gulf.html


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## Meadowlark

Scott,

That data is always fascinating. Those fish can really cover some water. 

What is the consensus on how far they go to the south? Do they actually follow the coast north to the Isla Holbox? 

Tarpon 166 was clearly in the Bay of Campeche. I've fished Campeche several times and only found juvenile tarpon there....but larger Tarpon are certainly caught further north from there, but they may not be migratory.

Fascinating.


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## Scott

Meadowlark said:


> Scott,
> 
> That data is always fascinating. Those fish can really cover some water.
> 
> What is the consensus on how far they go to the south? Do they actually follow the coast north to the Isla Holbox?
> 
> Tarpon 166 was clearly in the Bay of Campeche. I've fished Campeche several times and only found juvenile tarpon there....but larger Tarpon are certainly caught further north from there, but they may not be migratory.
> 
> Fascinating.


We had two tags come off in that area a couple months apart. The question is do they possibly go even farther. We just don't know. That's why we do what we do.


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## Permit Rat

Scott said:


> Actually, your assumption on the migration is not correct. Sorry. They go past Veracruz in the winter. The reason the tournament has been a bust is because the fish have come through there earlier than the tournament. I know folks that fish down there all the time and keep track of the migration patterns.
> 
> Here is the science - http://www.itarpon.org/western-gulf.html


 Scott, I think you misunderstood my use of the word "Veracruz."
Fact is, you can't go any further south in the Bay of Campeche than Veracruz. Coatzacualcos is at the very bottom of the Bay and that is still Veracruz. I believe you thought I was referring to the Rio Antigua area, where everybody in the tournament fishes.

You obviously follow this to a greater degree than I do. I'm just going by the chart that Jesse Webb posted at the Veracruz yacht club at the kick-off dinner before the tournament, one year. That was several years ago and things change. Jesse planted several satellite tags that year (about 8 I think)

But anyone would be a fool to take the results of 8 tags and make any assumptions based on that....or indeed what returns might come in the next year. Every fisherman knows the migration is affected by weather, and on a yearly basis. Over time, ambient water temperature has to have an effect also.

I could almost write a book on what I believe happened to Gulf tarpon over the past decades. I believe the whole migratory pattern has changed, since about the early 80's. This is why there are tarpon in Key West all year round and probably why Texas has seen a greater number of tarpon in recent years, AND why some Keys guides are complaining about a general lack of fish over the past few decades.


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## Scott

Permit Rat said:


> Scott, I think you misunderstood my use of the word "Veracruz."


Permit Rat,

My apologies. When you wrote, "Veracruz is at the very bottom of the Texas-Mexico migration and the fish turn around here and work their way back north." I thought you meant they don't go any further.

In fact, the tagging that has been done at the tournaments in Mexico shows that some of the smaller fish, less than 150 lbs. actually go the other way and back toward the Yucatan after being tagged instead of going north with what we consider the regular migration. This is similar to what is seen over in Boca Grande. Veracruz/Tampico may be a similar pre-spawn gathering point from where post-spawn tarpon then fan out to forage.

I think the smaller the tarpon, generally speaking, the shorter the migration. Not an absolute rule but certainly a pattern shown by the satellite tagging. The real question is how far do they go toward the Florida Straights and Cuba.

There are some tagging expeditions going to Cuba now, so maybe we'll know more soon. From tarpon tagged in Trinidad, we know large tarpon have no problems traveling through open ocean and deep water.

It's Mother Nature - there are no absolutes. Patterns? Yes. Preferred behavior? Yes, but no absolutes. That's what makes all this so cool.


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## Permit Rat

Scott, I find your posts and info on the various tagging programs to be very interesting. As I said, I have a theory as to a change in the tarpon migratory pattern, beginning about 1981-82, that hinges on water temperature. Quite by accident, that theory got a boost by observations from NASA satellite data. I would love to have a sit-down with you some day, to see if any of the tagging program results lend further credence (or not) to that theory. Thanks for your input!


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## Snookered

Permit Rat said:


> I would love to have a sit-down with you some day, to see if any of the tagging program results lend further credence (or not) to that theory. Thanks for your input!


 and I would like to sit and listen.....good stuff gentlemen...
snookered


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## TrueblueTexican

*Water and migration*

I've had the opportunity to fish Central Americas down to Nicaragua, if you go straight out of San Luis Pass 800 miles headed east will put you in Quintana Roo - I would not doubt cross migration coming from there either - huge tarpon nurseries all down Belizean coast. Stood on my porch in Hopkins Belize and caught juvenile tarpon till my arms fell off.

Tarpon move far out of recorded study areas as well as coming from areas outside studies, they swim HUNDREDS of miles in 24 hours.


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