# Prince of poachers



## Flat Nasty (Apr 12, 2019)

Has anyone else read the book!?! I am currently reading it! The story’s are awesome even tho grammar and typos are everywhere. If you can make it past that it’s a great read about true south Texas monsters in its prime


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## 3CK (Oct 5, 2010)

Its on my list to read, Charles was on the BIG HONKER podcast recently and he was a very interesting listen.

Can't say i agree with what he did, but the stories are awesome regardless.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

I have not read this book but I want to. I had never heard of it until now. Can you tell me where Charles Beatty is from? I killed a deer in th mid 80â€™s that I had mounted. I took it to a taxidermist that was located by a gun range just out of Ft Worth. There was a huge set of horns there that I admired and ask about. The man that killed the deer was there and over a period of time we talked and while I wonâ€™t say we became friends he would confide in me.

I canâ€™t remember his name but I am curious if this was him. He poached the King and Kennedy ranches. Someone would drop him off in the middle of the night and he would hike in and stay from 1-2 weeks at a time, and have a time and place to be picked up. He told me a few stories oh the times that they got on to him and even got helicopters to look for him. He also showed me an album of deer, dead and alive that he had seen or killed. It was absolutely amazing, some real monsters. 

Did he live in the Ft Worth area?


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

I just googled him and this had to be him. I knew he did the taxidermy on his own deer, but i did not know he was a taxidermist. He did not own or work full time at this particular shop. I donâ€™t agree with what he did, but I will say I was fascinated by him and loved to talk to him. He had a big set for sure.


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## hjm (May 8, 2016)

Fascinating story line, I am looking forward to reading this book.


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

I know a couple guys who have some similar stories, including those ranches and helicopters. Just a different time back then, and although I wouldn't do it, it sure makes for some awesome stories.


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## PresidentThump (May 22, 2019)

To be honest I was intrigued about this book from flat nasty's post but after searching for other reviews, I don't think I can reward a criminal who's basically just bragging about his crimes. 

Charles Beaty's instagram (charles.beaty.330) is littered with old mounts of giant bucks, Bragging about crippling animals and finding them a year later, taking unethical shots, shooting big young bucks just because, a 6 day hunt where they killed 3 bucks over 165" and 3 more close to 160"...

I'm sure the stories are entertaining and he is obviously very skilled at rattling but this guy is a true POS. 116 trophy bucks poached over a 22 year span and twice the amount of does for "campmeat" (atleast he was keeping the ratio in check)...maybe he details how he stored/preserved all the meat in the books on the 1 week-3 week hunts but I don't see how he possibly could since he was dropped off with a gun, pack, lived off the land during those trips, and had a time and place to be picked up. Most of that meat had to go to waste.

I understand ranches, deer leases, day hunts, etc. are expensive but he didn't just do this once or twice a year to put meat in the freezer. He took his buddies and local cops too on all out horns hunts and killed as many big deer as they could.

Now he brags about hunting legally.. IMO he shoudn't be allowed to purchase a license or own a firearm/bow even though I know he would obtain one illegally anyways. 

Rant over, I just don't think this **** should be rewarded for bragging about his crimes.


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## Flat Nasty (Apr 12, 2019)

PresidentThump said:


> To be honest I was intrigued about this book from flat nasty's post but after searching for other reviews, I don't think I can reward a criminal who's basically just bragging about his crimes.
> 
> Charles Beaty's instagram (charles.beaty.330) is littered with old mounts of giant bucks, Bragging about crippling animals and finding them a year later, taking unethical shots, shooting big young bucks just because, a 6 day hunt where they killed 3 bucks over 165" and 3 more close to 160"...
> 
> ...


this is true although I would never go that low. I dream of the deer he killed and how I will never be able to afford to do it!tuna! I love the process and everything about hunting and the meat you get form it but I am with out a dout a trophy hunter. you can eat the horn but I promises a big mature buck will also be big body. I don't look as if I rewarded him , I did it for me and wanted to read the storys


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## Flat Nasty (Apr 12, 2019)

WillieT said:


> I have not read this book but I want to. I had never heard of it until now. Can you tell me where Charles Beatty is from? I killed a deer in th mid 80â€™s that I had mounted. I took it to a taxidermist that was located by a gun range just out of Ft Worth. There was a huge set of horns there that I admired and ask about. The man that killed the deer was there and over a period of time we talked and while I wonâ€™t say we became friends he would confide in me.
> 
> I canâ€™t remember his name but I am curious if this was him. He poached the King and Kennedy ranches. Someone would drop him off in the middle of the night and he would hike in and stay from 1-2 weeks at a time, and have a time and place to be picked up. He told me a few stories oh the times that they got on to him and even got helicopters to look for him. He also showed me an album of deer, dead and alive that he had seen or killed. It was absolutely amazing, some real monsters.
> 
> Did he live in the Ft Worth area?


yes he was originally from up around dallas ftw


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

**** a poacher!


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## sundownbrown (May 10, 2009)

I have read it, interesting stuff if itâ€™s all true


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

sundownbrown said:


> I have read it, interesting stuff if itâ€™s all true


I have not read the book yet, but I talked to him several times. I have a feeling itâ€™s all true. He was a pretty interesting guy.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

There was another large outfit doing the same in Webb / dimmit/ lasalle counties during late 90s . Would drop off hunter(s) on large well know ranches/ leases and poach weeks at a time. Even had paying customers to do it. GW has to get inside mole to catch them. One poacher used boots that had calf hoove imprints in sole as to not leave boot tracks.


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## copano_son (Dec 17, 2007)

A very good friend of mine has an uncle who has some very impressive deer mounted on his wall, that were all shot off the King and Kennedy Ranches back in the 60s - 70s. All of them are 170" - 190", maybe bigger, but each of them unique in their own way. The stories he's told us on how he did it are just as impressive as the deer.

Any of you who have spent significant amount of time fishing Baffin have probably met him.


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## hog_down (Jan 11, 2010)

He has a recently uploaded podcast on The Big Honker that I listened to yesterday/this morning. Very interesting, for sure.


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## Flat Nasty (Apr 12, 2019)

hog_down said:


> He has a recently uploaded podcast on The Big Honker that I listened to yesterday/this morning. Very interesting, for sure.


im going to have to go listen to it


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## Spec-Rig.006 (Nov 2, 2007)

Game Wars is an EXCELLENT book about poaching and black market animal trade in the U.S. ... check it out! It'll blow your mind. It's written from the view point of an undercover agent.


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## Nitroexpress (Apr 7, 2010)

PresidentThump said:


> To be honest I was intrigued about this book from flat nasty's post but after searching for other reviews, I don't think I can reward a criminal who's basically just bragging about his crimes.
> 
> Charles Beaty's instagram (charles.beaty.330) is littered with old mounts of giant bucks, Bragging about crippling animals and finding them a year later, taking unethical shots, shooting big young bucks just because, a 6 day hunt where they killed 3 bucks over 165" and 3 more close to 160"...
> 
> ...


I totally agree. It's probably a fascinating read, but if you give him money to read the story, he is profiting and you are rewarding him.


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## PresidentThump (May 22, 2019)

Nitroexpress said:


> I totally agree. It's probably a fascinating read, but if you give him money to read the story, he is profiting and you are rewarding him.


I did see the guys on Texas Bow Hunting forum formed a "book club" per se. Only bought one copy of the booked and shipped it around to each other to read the stories.

Poaching the poacher. Gotta love the irony in that.


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## impulse (Mar 17, 2010)

Nitroexpress said:


> I totally agree. It's probably a fascinating read, but if you give him money to read the story, he is profiting and you are rewarding him.


The flipside of that is the big business that has put trophy hunting outside the financial reach of all but the wealthiest.

I don't support what he did, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for the ranches that he poached, who charge an average Joe's annual salary for the opportunity to hunt for what was supposed to be a public resource.


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## Nitroexpress (Apr 7, 2010)

impulse said:


> The flipside of that is the big business that has put trophy hunting outside the financial reach of all but the wealthiest.
> 
> I don't support what he did, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for the ranches that he poached, who charge an average Joe's annual salary for the opportunity to hunt for what was supposed to be a public resource.


If you poach, you are STEALING that resource you mention.


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## Whitecrow (May 26, 2004)

Nitroexpress said:


> If you poach, you are STEALING that resource you mention.


Agreed 100%. I wonder if the lowlife had been stealing cars and wrote a book about it if everybody would think it was "interesting". Best possible ending to the book would've been for some King Ranch vaquero to have caught him and put a bullet in his brain pan.


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## Bukkskin (Oct 21, 2009)

​


Cynoscion said:


> **** a poacher!


Yessir :cheers:


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## impulse (Mar 17, 2010)

Nitroexpress said:


> If you poach, you are STEALING that resource you mention.


Well, call me a communist, but I have a problem with one family in control of that much land by virtue of the parents they chose. Frankly, that's what a lot of Euro settlers were trying to get away from when they immigrated to America.

So, while I don't condone the poaching, I don't really feel too bad for the folks who lost a tiny portion of 1/100th of a percent of what they inherited through no effort of their own.

And, a little off the topic, but I'd bet the entire tone of the thread would be different if the land he poached on belonged to a internet billionaire out of California...


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## Bukkskin (Oct 21, 2009)

impulse said:


> Well, call me a communist, but I have a problem with one family in control of that much land by virtue of the parents they chose. Frankly, that's what a lot of Euro settlers were trying to get away from when they immigrated to America.
> 
> So, while I don't condone the poaching, I don't really feel too bad for the folks who lost a tiny portion of 1/100th of a percent of what they inherited through no effort of their own.


Yessir, I agree. You are a Communist.:spineyes:


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## impulse (Mar 17, 2010)

Bukkskin said:


> Yessir, I agree. You are a Communist.:spineyes:


C'mon. Admit it. Which one do you root for in the movie?

The poacher, or the Sheriff of Nottingham?


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## sundownbrown (May 10, 2009)

I just ordered the game wars book, should be a good read


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## Bukkskin (Oct 21, 2009)

impulse said:


> C'mon. Admit it. Which one do you root for in the movie?
> 
> The poacher, or the Sheriff of Nottingham?


I understand your point to a certain extent. But my feelings on personal property rights Trumps that.
I know I would be very upset if I was trying to grow a big young buck up to maturity, and some jack wagon walked in and shot him, cut his head off and walked away with it.
But, back then it wasn't really like that as far as feeding and letting them walk.
Either way the author is in the wrong.


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## Flat Nasty (Apr 12, 2019)

Bukkskin said:


> impulse said:
> 
> 
> > C'mon. Admit it. Which one do you root for in the movie?
> ...


You are not wrong at all but on the flip side the Kennedy ranch he hunted on for the most part allows zero hunting . I love big deer with a passion and I would be willing to bet he saw deer that other wise never would have been seen .


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Flat Nasty said:


> You are not wrong at all but on the flip side the Kennedy ranch he hunted on for the most part allows zero hunting . I love big deer with a passion and I would be willing to bet he saw deer that other wise never would have been seen .


I believe at that time the king ranch had little to no hunting. I know that they did not do any lease hunting in the 50â€™s and 60â€™s. My dad coached at Miller in Corpus Christi in the 50â€™s. His dad was a guard at the ranch. We had a pass for the front gate so we could go in and fish the shoreline, but could not hunt. There were some friends that could hunt the ranch, but Iâ€™m pretty sure nothing was done commercially.


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## Flat Nasty (Apr 12, 2019)

WillieT said:


> I believe at that time the king ranch had little to no hunting. I know that they did not do any lease hunting in the 50â€™s and 60â€™s. My dad coached at Miller in Corpus Christi in the 50â€™s. His dad was a guard at the ranch. We had a pass for the front gate so we could go in and fish the shoreline, but could not hunt. There were some friends that could hunt the ranch, but Iâ€™m pretty sure nothing was done commercially.


I think I was born about 30 plus year to late . I would love to have seen all that country before high fences and population explosion


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

I haven't read the book, so I may be off on my opinions. Anyone that could hike in and live off the land and stay undetected for the most part is interesting, true. I have heard these type stories for years. But he was a criminal, and profiting by telling the story seems strange. 



Some robbers and burglars end making a living in security, which is similar to me.


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## texcajun (Feb 22, 2009)

And to think I thought I was tough for having my older brother drop me off on the side of the interstate so I could sneak into a couple nice ponds and fish. Never got caught and I always released the fish I caught. We always had a prearranged time for him passing back through. Summer of '81.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Iâ€™m a little surprised at the opinions of some of the folks on this board. Some of you guys are justifying the life of a poacher bc hunting is expensive? And the big ranches of south Texas have â€œtoo much landâ€. Say that **** out loud so you can hear how ridiculous that sounds. Yeah, it sounds like something a whiny Democrat would say. You have too much and I donâ€™t have enough so itâ€™s ok if I take some of yours? Effen ridiculous!

There is no justification for poaching. It is stealing plain and simple and there is no justification for stealing. I stand by my original post in this thread. **** a poacher! Dude is a piece of ****!


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

*Kennedy*

From 1990-1993 I hunted the Kennedy, the marano, Ramirez, telephone and coastal pastures, 72,000 acre, a guy named stuart sassur from Corpus Christi had it
Mike morales ran it , we killed some great deer and nilgai off it, I personally didnâ€™t see any helicopters flying around searching for poachers , but every day a truck pulling a trailer full of atvâ€™s did come by they drove the intercostal looking for poachers coming in by water and I guess some by land , if that guy had to kill a deer to eat he is pulling a tall tail, because we had so many turkeys you could probably kill them with a slingshot, mike fain was our game warden and he came to camp every single day. And was a real hard case about even the smallest things. 
Jim Blackburn was our neighbor on the south and the Corpus Catholic Churches no hunting zone on the north and Blackburn had a huge group of people, that we spent a big part of our time having to run off because that group was constantly lost driving around our part . We entered about a mile south of the border patrol check on the east side and hunted from hwy 77 ( which had just turned into a divided hi way) . While we never saw any or caught any poachers, I did see loads of illegal aliens and drugs coming down the power line, ( pre 9/11) lots of Indian, Pakistani, Korean , Chinese people . I moved over to dick jones place in brooks and Jim Hogg counties and also hunted with jimmy Dunn from falfurius on Steve and sissy Hoppers place off 281 in brooks 
Lots of crazy stories I saw in that country ( mainly drugs and illegals )
Cynoscion probably knows some of these owners and their places


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Yessir. I know that country well. Mike Mireles was a friend and died way too young. I hunted a lot of that country the last couple of years Stuart had it and then for a few years after George took it all over.
I have no doubt that this poacher did most of what he says he did. I know some of the old time poachers from down here and they got away with some pretty incredible things. That doesnâ€™t make it right and doesnâ€™t make them any more or less than the crooks and losers that they are.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

I was across the fence from you. Magote , Maria Stella etc. got Ramirez later- Norman was a pain in the *** as was Fain. Never got lost - stuck beyond admition- you learned how to get yourself out of serious situations . FYI - I shot my first bull in the holy land in 1989( Risken- ring a bell ) . The atvs coming from coast were always there. If we caught one , we could keep atv. I was on one 8.5 miles into Maria Stella one afternoon. Duramax cant really go across tidal flats very well .....


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

impulse said:


> Well, call me a communist, but I have a problem with one family in control of that much land by virtue of the parents they chose. Frankly, that's what a lot of Euro settlers were trying to get away from when they immigrated to America.
> 
> So, while I don't condone the poaching, I don't really feel too bad for the folks who lost a tiny portion of 1/100th of a percent of what they inherited through no effort of their own.
> 
> And, a little off the topic, but I'd bet the entire tone of the thread would be different if the land he poached on belonged to a internet billionaire out of California...


who decides how big my backyard can be ?
I have a few other thoughts best left out of here, but if I were king or kennedy affiliated, his stuff would burn


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

*Fun place*



mrsh978 said:


> I was across the fence from you. Magote , Maria Stella etc. got Ramirez later- Norman was a pain in the *** as was Fain. Never got lost - stuck beyond admition- you learned how to get yourself out of serious situations . FYI - I shot my first bull in the holy land in 1989( Risken- ring a bell ) . The atvs coming from coast were always there. If we caught one , we could keep atv. I was on one 8.5 miles into Maria Stella one afternoon. Duramax cant really go across tidal flats very well .....


Yep once you started driving to the cabin out on turcotte rd on the peninsula 
You better stick to that road, mike fain was a pain ( he took way to much personal interest in the ranch imo, ) the holy land was crazy also ( probably where most of this â€œ prince of poachers â€œ did his dirty work, if fain hadnâ€™t died of brain cancer I doubt this nut job would have written this book 
My camp was that old wooden windmill with the high wooden water cistern right where all the pastures meet 
Having a pass card to travel and go anywhere I wanted on the east side of the Kennedy was a time I will never forget , one of the few places I could wake up and tell someone letâ€™s go hunting and be able to hunt , ducks , geese, quail, dove deer, nilgai, turkey hogs all in the same day 
Deer with hooves like waterbuck from the sand and mud


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

Cynoscion said:


> Iâ€™m a little surprised at the opinions of some of the folks on this board. Some of you guys are justifying the life of a poacher bc hunting is expensive? And the big ranches of south Texas have â€œtoo much landâ€. Say that **** out loud so you can hear how ridiculous that sounds. Yeah, it sounds like something a whiny Democrat would say. You have too much and I donâ€™t have enough so itâ€™s ok if I take some of yours? Effen ridiculous!
> 
> There is no justification for poaching. It is stealing plain and simple and there is no justification for stealing. I stand by my original post in this thread. **** a poacher! Dude is a piece of ****!


Amen to that flipping ridiculous the way some people are


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Great memories in the stuff James and Pilar are posting! The Risken tract is still there of course. The Holy land is being hunted but is still pretty wild and untouched for the most part. The churchâ€™s reluctance to hunt it may well be what allowed this douchebag, and a lot of other poachers, to get away with their crimes for as long as they did.


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## impulse (Mar 17, 2010)

kweber said:


> who decides how big my backyard can be ?
> I have a few other thoughts best left out of here, but if I were king or kennedy affiliated, his stuff would burn


When Texas law was written, they wisely made all navigable water available to the public. They could have just as easily treated navigable water like land, sold it off, and weâ€™d all get to look with envy at the rich folks with enough money to buy access to the publicâ€™s bass on Lake Conroe, every time we drive down 105.

The law could have been written to make land open to the public so we wouldnâ€™t be outside looking in at people rich enough to hunt the publicâ€™s deer on huge swaths of land. Or, they could have taken the BLM model and leased the land for grazing, oil exploration, or whatever- and reserved the publicâ€™s right to hunt for OUR deer thatâ€™s on those lands. (You wanna know how I know those are public deer? Thereâ€™s a closed season- even on huge private ranches) Yet, weâ€™re not allowed to hunt for those deer- deer that belong to us.

Just like Iâ€™m glad that they didnâ€™t sell off the navigable water, I lament the fact that they sold off the lands that hold a public resource. Without guaranteeing the public access to property (the deer) that belong to us.

Iâ€™d sure miss fishing Lake Conroe, Lake Fork, and 1000 other public waters in Texas if they had sold off the right to access OUR bass.

Once again, I donâ€™t condone poaching. The law is the law. But I sure am glad I donâ€™t have to sneak into Lake Conroe if I want to fish there. Texas got some laws right... Some, not so right.


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

so according to your reasoning, it'd be okay for me to camp/or walk into your yard to shoot squirrals outta your pecan trees


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

impulse said:


> Well, call me a communist, but I have a problem with one family in control of that much land by virtue of the parents they chose. Frankly, that's what a lot of Euro settlers were trying to get away from when they immigrated to America.
> 
> So, while I don't condone the poaching, I don't really feel too bad for the folks who lost a tiny portion of 1/100th of a percent of what they inherited through no effort of their own.
> 
> And, a little off the topic, but I'd bet the entire tone of the thread would be different if the land he poached on belonged to a internet billionaire out of California...


say that if you are Kleburg of Kenedy kin...
you have a problem of one family in control of that much land, hunh?
go look at what ted turner owns in montanaâ€¦
I think Redford has a big chunk there, too...
and they're big libs like you esspose to be...
pretty sure your not on their invite list


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

impulse said:


> Well, call me a communist, but I have a problem with one family in control of that much land by virtue of the parents they chose. Frankly, that's what a lot of Euro settlers were trying to get away from when they immigrated to America.
> 
> So, while I don't condone the poaching, I don't really feel too bad for the folks who lost a tiny portion of 1/100th of a percent of what they inherited through no effort of their own.
> 
> And, a little off the topic, but I'd bet the entire tone of the thread would be different if the land he poached on belonged to a internet billionaire out of California...


so by that reasoning Marx and Lenin
had it going...
yep it fun to root for robbin hood, but when it comes down to fact â€¦
he a was a criminal who needed hanging


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

*impulse*, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree with it.

You mentioned internet billionaires. I think if Bill Gates wants to buy land and not allow hunting, that is his business.

Whether a rich family from generations back or a rich self made person doesn't matter. They don't own the deer, but they do own the land.

If big family holdings are used in a way to help society, agricultural, they don't get taxed to death. If they don't use for AG, in general the taxes get too high to hang onto the property. I am not saying I like taxes, but the AG thing does help keep us in food.


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

mrsh978 said:


> There was another large outfit doing the same in Webb / dimmit/ lasalle counties during late 90s . Would drop off hunter(s) on large well know ranches/ leases and poach weeks at a time. Even had paying customers to do it. GW has to get inside mole to catch them. One poacher used boots that had calf hoove imprints in sole as to not leave boot tracks.


My roommate at university, his family leased from Archie Parr ( DUKE OF Duvall fame ) his uncle George had a warehouse full of monster bucks in San Diego Texas 
But the entire town of Benavides where the ranch was , was a ring of poachers, generations of poachers 
All hunting 2295 and 141 , up 44 and down 281 , there stories were very similar this â€œprinceâ€ guy , they really acted like it was a right to poach every where 
And even half argued over who was poaching where, some where true trophy hunting others just putting meat on the table, that whole area around Duvall county is probably still the worst area in Texas I have ever seen


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## SD Hawkins (Jan 2, 2008)

Just read game wars again, if this story intrigues you, buy this book. But it still irks me that these guys get slaps on the wrist for what they do. Some of the methods, for example netting birds instead of shooting as they knew they flyways and netting tons of crappie, no lines and poles.

I had a friend who had a neighbor who he introduced me to as he knew I liked to fish for specks. Got to know this guy as he taught me to pour shrimptails ( big, fat ones like the old kelly wigglers on steroids) he boasted of making a living for a few years selling fish to local markets, and that he was recruited by guys out there he saw day in and day out, they all did it as most were ex-cons or living under the radar.

Pics of small toyota truck beds...full of specks.


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## impulse (Mar 17, 2010)

Whitebassfisher said:


> *impulse*, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree with it.
> 
> You mentioned internet billionaires. I think if Bill Gates wants to buy land and not allow hunting, that is his business.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your well reasoned response. It's obviously not as simple as I make it sound, just like it's not as simple as "hang all poachers".

Being a Yankee transplant, I was pretty appalled at the lack of public land available to hunt, compared to "back home". I honestly think most Texans don't know just how bad we have it, with just 1% of Texas land available for free public hunting, compared to (let's pick a good one....) New Jersey, where almost 16% of the land is open to the public for hunting. To be 1/16 as good as New Jersey??? Ouch.

https://www.backcountrychronicles.com/public-hunting-land/

Again, Texas does a lot of things right. Land use, specific to hunting, isn't one that I agree with.

BTW, unlike most of my Texas born neighbors, I welcome people to fish in the lights off the dock out back... It is public water, after all. And to the guy asking about people hunting squirrels out of my pecan trees, that isn't an issue with about 1/5 of an acre and nothing but palms.

Of course, a lot of what I'm stating here is tongue in cheek. More than trying to convince anyone of the virtues of commies, I just want to get people thinking. Like the Robin Hood story.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

A lot of folks from outside of Texas feel kind of the same way you do with regard to public hunting access and lack of it in our state. Iâ€™d ask you to think about it like this. When most of the rest of our country extirpated whitetails from their native range, Texas still had huntable populations. Why? Private land ownership. Our big landowners donated whitetails, turkeys, mountain lions and countless other species to other states for repopulation efforts. If it werenâ€™t for our long history of private land ownership, a lot of the states you look to for public land hunting opportunities wouldnâ€™t have huntable populations of game species. Our long history of private land ownership has brought numerous species back from the verge of extinction. Without private ownership of large land holdings, we would have been in just as bad of shape as everyone else.
Like it or not, Texas is and always will be a landowner rights state. You should be thanking these landowners bc without them, thereâ€™d be nothing to hunt on public land in most states.


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

impulse said:


> Thanks for your well reasoned response. It's obviously not as simple as I make it sound, just like it's not as simple as "hang all poachers".
> 
> Being a Yankee transplant, I was pretty appalled at the lack of public land available to hunt, compared to "back home". I honestly think most Texans don't know just how bad we have it, with just 1% of Texas land available for free public hunting, compared to (let's pick a good one....) New Jersey, where almost 16% of the land is open to the public for hunting. To be 1/16 as good as New Jersey??? Ouch.
> 
> ...


If public land hunting is important enough to you in your living criteria, maybe 
You should move to a different state that has over taxed public hunting resources , my yankee buddies who complain to me about it get the same response â€œ you should have thought about that before you moved here â€œ 
Or do some traveling to a state that does have public hunting 
Just please donâ€™t promote felonies and thievery ,


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## Bukkskin (Oct 21, 2009)

Cynoscion said:


> A lot of folks from outside of Texas feel kind of the same way you do with regard to public hunting access and lack of it in our state. Iâ€™d ask you to think about it like this. When most of the rest of our country extirpated whitetails from their native range, Texas still had huntable populations. Why? Private land ownership. Our big landowners donated whitetails, turkeys, mountain lions and countless other species to other states for repopulation efforts. If it werenâ€™t for our long history of private land ownership, a lot of the states you look to for public land hunting opportunities wouldnâ€™t have huntable populations of game species. Our long history of private land ownership has brought numerous species back from the verge of extinction. Without private ownership of large land holdings, we would have been in just as bad of shape as everyone else.
> Like it or not, Texas is and always will be a landowner rights state. You should be thanking these landowners bc without them, thereâ€™d be nothing to hunt on public land in most states.


Yup


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

Texas was once a nation unto itself...
it sold huge tracts to folks to settle it...
now we have millions who want access to those who paid for it...

my fore bears who came in 1844 paid and worked hard for the postage-stamp we have
groos-papa and those after him who had little but sweat 
built this into what it is..

like I sed before
who you gonna allow into yer yard?
dont matter if it's a suburbam lot or 10k ac...


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## impulse (Mar 17, 2010)

Cynoscion said:


> A lot of folks from outside of Texas feel kind of the same way you do with regard to public hunting access and lack of it in our state. Iâ€™d ask you to think about it like this. When most of the rest of our country extirpated whitetails from their native range, Texas still had huntable populations. Why? Private land ownership. Our big landowners donated whitetails, turkeys, mountain lions and countless other species to other states for repopulation efforts. If it werenâ€™t for our long history of private land ownership, a lot of the states you look to for public land hunting opportunities wouldnâ€™t have huntable populations of game species. Our long history of private land ownership has brought numerous species back from the verge of extinction. Without private ownership of large land holdings, we would have been in just as bad of shape as everyone else.
> Like it or not, Texas is and always will be a landowner rights state. You should be thanking these landowners bc without them, thereâ€™d be nothing to hunt on public land in most states.


Nice sentiments, but not backed up by statistics...

https://www.qdma.com/which-state-has-the-most-successful-hunters/

Even New Jersey leads Texas in the percentage of hunters that got off a shot at a deer. Ouch. And that doesn't even include the wishful Texas hunters that stayed home because they couldn't afford a lease. In NJ, you don't need a lease. Just a license.

Edit: BTW, yes, I'm having some fun. I love Texas. Been here (on and off with some overseas assignments) for over 40 years. But that doesn't mean it's all good.

For example, feeding the deer some corn would get you kicked out of a hunting club in New Jersey. Fishing on the day before the season opens is a mortal sin. It's different. Not better. Not worse. But very different. As you may tell by the number of guys who would hang poachers in one breath, then talk about sneaking into a pond to go fishing in the next sentence.


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## batmaninja (Jul 15, 2010)

impulse said:


> Even New Jersey leads Texas in the percentage of hunters that got off a shot at a deer. Ouch. And that doesn't even include the wishful Texas hunters that stayed home because they couldn't afford a lease. In NJ, you don't need a lease. Just a license.


Oohhhh, look how cute. About 130,000 hunters in all of NJ.

Since we are having fun here, why are you yankees tracking "got off a shot at a deer"? In close quarters, hunting public land much less. We dont track shots at deer here, partner. Its dead or it aint :texasflag


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

impulse said:


> Nice sentiments, but not backed up by statistics...
> 
> https://www.qdma.com/which-state-has-the-most-successful-hunters/
> 
> ...


Your statistics are current and your reading comprehension is severely lacking. The post of mine that you quoted was based on historical data. I know you may not know it but here goes again.

At one time in the not so distant past, deer, turkeys and lots of other animals were virtually extinct (maybe extirpated was too big of a word?). Large landholdings in Texas never had this misfortune. Why? B/c the "evil" landowners took care of their holdings and when the rest of our great nation went looking for animals to restock into their now barren public lands, where did they turn to? Texas was instrumental in restocking much of the country with whitetails, turkey and mountain lions (think Florida).

You should check your own statistics also. The link you posted clearly states that the southeast US has the highest hunter success with regard to deer hunting. Guess which region of the country has the highest percentage of PRIVATE land? I'll give you some time to figure it our for yourself but those very successful hunters didn't do it on public land.

Other states have more public access but quantity does not trump quality in the eyes of most Texans. Check the record book and get back with me on how New Jersey stacks up against Texas.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Oh yeah, if youâ€™re going to post links to statistics, it would be best if they favored your argument instead of the counter argument. Just sayin.


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## grayson (Oct 21, 2011)

I have no time for poachers. No different to me than if someone came into your home and stole your guns, jewelry, etc. So reading some dude's book about how he robbed people is not my cup of tea thank you


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## Bukkskin (Oct 21, 2009)

impulse said:


> Being a Yankee transplant


 :headknock:headknock

I knew it, I Freaking knew it!!!!
I was thinking New York or California.
So, you people flee these places for a better life in places like Texas or Florida.
Then want to change the new state to be just like the state that you fled?? :spineyes:
What ran you out of New Jersey? Taxes to fund the redistribution laws up there?


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Although both poaching deer and bass fishing in someone else's lake involve trespassing, which is bad, the results are not necessarily identical. Catch and release is possible and fun. Shoot and release doesn't work too well. I can't remember ever sneaking into a fishing hole, but just wanted to mention there may be a big difference between fishing and hunting.


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## Flat Nasty (Apr 12, 2019)

the insight an opinion's the post and book have brought out is awesome. thanks everyone for the posts. end the end right , wrong, indifferent I truly believe most people braking the law to hunt or fish love to do so probably just as much as me. however they do not care about the resources nor the law like I do. I can promise you one thing! I will never in my life do anything to potentially lose my hunting or fishing privileges. And as bad as I want to kill big dear consistently with out spending my entire savings account every year , I will not be doing anything Charles did. in the end I will put my self in the best situations on the best places I get to hunt to put some meat in the freezer and horns on the wall!:cheers:


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## bigfishtx (Jul 17, 2007)

PresidentThump said:


> To be honest I was intrigued about this book from flat nasty's post but after searching for other reviews, I don't think I can reward a criminal who's basically just bragging about his crimes.
> 
> Charles Beaty's instagram (charles.beaty.330) is littered with old mounts of giant bucks, Bragging about crippling animals and finding them a year later, taking unethical shots, shooting big young bucks just because, a 6 day hunt where they killed 3 bucks over 165" and 3 more close to 160"...
> 
> ...


He is a thief. I wonâ€™t reward him for that.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

He did most of it in â€œ Holy land â€œ - my first thought when I saw this was ...â€ how many seed ticks he had spending weeks in that country â€œ.... I got so many on me from a weekend in there I was finding them a week later , plus with all those bites - he has to have lymes disease !


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Nope. I have no interest of reading of his crimes.

I've known some poachers like him and had no use for them.

Anyone remember Stealing Beauty?

*Stealing Beauty*

*By Mike Cox*
_*Who's poaching the big bucks?*_
Backlit by a smoky campfire so only his gimme-capped silhouette shows up on the video, "Eddy" does not need much prompting to talk freely about his former life as a brush country outlaw - a poacher who made big bucks off big bucks.


"My best year?" he responds to the man interviewing him. "Forty-eight bucks. I hauled 'em out every day of the season."


Not that he paid any attention to the legal hunting season, except that it roughly parallels the time of year when bucks have their antlers.
Asked how many bucks he killed as a poacher, Eddy says he has to think about that for a minute.


"I don't know if I can add that high," he finally says. "A thousand, conservative 750, something like that." And as a "guide," who for $4,000 to $5,000 slipped wealthy clients on moonless nights onto big South Texas ranches to take trophy bucks, he says he was present when hundreds of other bucks were killed illegally.


In a good year, Samuel, another former poacher, says he made $60,000 routinely shooting deer most hunters would consider once-in-a-lifetime trophies, selling horns on the black market to wealthy collectors or unscrupulous hunters wanting to cash in on local big buck contests.
Eddy also killed for his own collection.


"I killed 20 or 30 [Boone and Crockett] gross-score 180-point bucks," he says with barely hidden pride. "I had three record-book bucks, and killed a dozen that missed the book by one point."


With a history of several arrests and a personal collection of 500 sets of big horns, Eddy, who learned the business from his peers, decided to retire from poaching when he reached his 40s. But 54-year-old Texas Parks and Wildlife Department game warden Mike Bradshaw of Carrizo Springs, who has spent more than half his life tracking men like Eddy, says plenty of other "Eddys" - who see a high fence not as a barrier but as an inviting target - are still in the outlaw business.


Poaching has been around since Robin Hood and his men gave the Sheriff of Nottingham fits in Sherwood Forest. William Shakespeare dealt specifically with deer poaching in "The Merry Wives of Windsor." In the bard's day, the deer belonged to the king. Killing a royal stag could cost an offender his head.


Stratford-Upon-Avon is a long way from Texas, where the deer and other game animals belong to the public. Poaching no longer is a chopping block offense, but landowners, game wardens and law-abiding hunters don't see anything merry about it in Texas.


So who's stealing your big bucks?


"I'd say they're 35 to 55 years old, middle-class, intelligent," says Jim Stinebaugh, TPWD director of law enforcement. "They have been handled before for game law violations, and they areâ€¦ how can I say thisâ€¦ just eaten up with deer."


Bradshaw agrees. "They don't want to hurt the deer population," he says, "but if a big buck is out there, any poacher probably would want to shoot it. Most have an attitude, like bank robbers, that it's the rich ranchers controlling the herd, but the deer belong to everybody. 'What does it hurt? I have to pay restitution in court, but ranchers get free use of deer.' This is the rationale we're dealing with in poaching."
Some poachers are locals, others are from distant cities or out of state. Their common denominator is a love for hunting, but they don't see it as a sport. To their way of thinking, they are merely taking what's theirs. Though poachers have many similar characteristics, their motives can be split into three categories.


The first is the opportunist. He's usually a relatively law-abiding hunter, often from one of the state's metropolitan areas, who pays $300 for a day hunt and doesn't see anything. On his way home, his ice chest empty except perhaps for a partially consumed six-pack of beer, he sees a fat doe or maybe a buck on the side of the road leading out of the ranch or on the highway right of way. He takes the deer, probably even tags it, and is on his way home, eager to tell his buddies about the deer he bagged.
A subset of this category, not nearly as common as he once was, is the meat hunter. The meat hunter likes fresh venison on the table and he doesn't care what time of year it is or whose land or right of way it is that he gets his groceries on. His daddy was a poacher, and so was his granddaddy.


Longtime East Texas dog hunter I.C. Eason killed his first deer, a big doe, with a .22 back during the Depression. When a private game warden caught him deep in the Pineywoods with the illegal deer, Eason threatened to kill him. His family did not have any food, he said, and he was going to keep that doe. The horseback warden believed him.


"If it hadn't been for the game and fish in here, I wouldn't have lived," Eason later told writer Blair Pittman for his book King of the Dog People. "As long as gunpowder burns, they ain't takin' this land."
The second breed of poacher is someone who couldn't care less about meat. He wants a trophy rack. Unfortunately for ranchers, who these days depend on hunting income to stay in business, this outlaw is not interested in paying for that Boone and Crockett deer. But he is willing to go to quite a bit of effort to steal yours.


"I started out right out of high school," says Eddy. "I enjoyed itâ€¦ it was wonderful. I didn't start out for money, but the money got pretty good."
The third variety of poacher is the rarest of the three but the worst: a professional in it primarily for the big money. This is what Eddy became.


"A Boone and Crockett rack of 180 points or better is worth a lot of money on the black market," Stinebaugh says. "For 200 points or more, you're talking serious money, pickup truck-buying money."
These money hunters are dead serious pros. They know what they're doing, and they're hard to catch. They don't leave tracks, but if they do, it's a set of fake tracks. Knowing that a shot can be heard for miles, they usually pull the trigger only once. That usually works out, because they've rattled a buck up so close they can hear him snorting. If they're hunting from a vehicle, they keep the muzzle inside to muffle the sound. They hunt when it's dark - it provides good cover and that's when the big deer are out - and they stay off the beaten path.


"They wear full camo, face paint and netting," Bradshaw says. "They may have flown over the ranch looking for a big deer, marking where they see it with a global positioning device. And then they come backpacking in. They've got night vision goggles, infrared scopes, lights with red lenses."
Along with all their other state-of-the-art equipment, they use two-way radios, cell phones and pagers.


"In the old days, if we cut a poacher off from his vehicle, we had a good chance of catching him," Bradshaw says. "Now they call someone on the cell phone and tell them where to come pick them up."


Poaching big deer takes more than high-tech equipment.


"I'd do a lot of homework," Eddy says. "In the summer, I'd scout the ranches, learning where the gates are. I'd cut the chain on a gate that didn't get used too much and drive to a nearby city where a locksmith stayed up all night making me a key to the lock. Then I'd drive back and put the lock back on the gate. After that, I had a key to the ranch."
Eddy did not talk on the tape about the times he did get caught, but one time he eluded arrest sticks in his mind.


"I was looking over a real good buck, maybe 175 points with a long beam, when I saw a plane in the distance," he says. "When its lights went out, I knew I'd kept my light on too long. I knew he'd be radioing to his ground crew."


Eddy started moving out of the area as quickly and quietly as he could. "I knew the pastures like the back of my hand," he says. "Then I heard a radio squelch about 100 yards away."
The game wardens were between him and the gate he intended to use, but he knew where there was another gate four to five miles off.


"I made it to the gate and got out of there," he says. "When I got home, I listened on my scanner as they kept looking for me. About 3 or 4 a.m. I got tired and went to sleep."


Like Eddy, the best of the worst poachers know the country.
"They know every fence post," Bradshaw says. "They know right where to go."


Once they've killed the big buck they want, they remove its horns or cape. If they think it's too risky to pack out their illegally taken trophy, they hang it in a mesquite tree for the maggots and fire ants to clean and come back for it a few weeks later.


"A real pro won't mark the place with something obvious, like fresh orange tape," the warden continues. "He'll throw down something inconspicuous, like a piece of tire, or a turtle shell, or bleached-out survey sticks."
Just as younger bucks are more prone to make fatal mistakes than their heavier-horned elders, the less experienced poachers are the easiest to catch. But whether through the use of informants, surveillance or just doggedly following a trail, wardens are still making cases, even on the experienced, well-equipped professional outlaws.


"They get pretty smart around the campfire," Bradshaw says. "It's kind of a game with them, but when we get to laugh, it costs them plenty."
Warden Brad Meloni, stationed at Hebbronville, has been a warden for only six years, but he's already handled quite a few poaching cases. Even in his relatively short career, he's seen things change.


"Road hunting has really slowed," he says. "People are shooting across a fence, or walking in, but the high fences have reduced hunting in the right of way."


Wardens refer to practitioners of this older methodology as those who do their illegal hunting by "burning a light." Thanks to high fences, which tend to keep deer off the roadway, the newer manifestation is dealing with those who trespass on a ranch, often on foot.


Some of these "walk-ins" are outlaw hunting guides, taking someone on a big ranch with big bucks so they can get a deer. Sometimes they drop them off and pick them up at a predetermined point, and sometimes they stay with them. On a moonlit night, they rattle up a buck or wait patiently with night vision equipment for a big deer to come to a feeder for a midnight snack.


Last year, Meloni said, one rancher in his county told him he had patched 40 holes in his high fence. Most, if not all of those holes, are presumed to have been made by poachers.


Until Sept. 1, 1999, all poaching-related violations were misdemeanors. Even the maximum fines amounted to little more than walking-around money for a serious violator. Now, someone caught hunting on private property without the landowner's permission faces a state jail felony conviction. That carries jail time of 180 days to two years and fines from $1,500 to $10,000.


Anyone taking a whitetail, mule deer, pronghorn antelope or desert bighorn sheep while hunting from a vehicle on a roadway or other public property, or at night, runs the risk of a similar penalty. A second offense of either of these two violations can result in two to 10 years in prison. Convicted trespass poachers also can have their hunting equipment forfeited, including their rifles, and see their hunting license revoked.


"Both forms of illegal hunting (trespassing and road hunting) are deplorable," says Darwin Avant of Cotulla, director of the Los Cazadores big game program. This big buck contest, started in 1986, is the state's largest and accepts entries from all over Texas and northern Mexico.
Avant believes the new law has had a significant impact. "I would guess that the number of arrests for illegal hunting has gradually been reduced over the past 10 years," he says.


Indeed, cases filed for hunting without a landowner's consent dropped from 458 in 1997 to 131 in 2000. Hunting from a vehicle cases decreased from 414 to 113 during the same time period, and night hunting cases went from 280 to 41.


"We are real pleased with it," Stinebaugh says of the new law. "It has a psychological effect. Sometimes they plead it down [to a misdemeanor], but it used to be a $500 maximum fine. The new statute is a real strong deterrent."


So are sophisticated TPWD enforcement actions like Operation Venado Macho (Spanish for buck deer). Code name for an 18-month undercover operation which climaxed on Feb. 5-6, 1998, the investigation led to the filing of 115 criminal charges against 14 men involved in illegal trophy hunting in Webb, La Salle, McMullen and Duval counties. The effort was the largest such operation in Texas history.


"We have an undercover operations unit, and we are going to be doing more of these," Stinebaugh says.
But in the long run, Stinebaugh believes, honest hunters and others who don't sanction the breaking of any law are going to make the biggest difference.


"I'm convinced that the best thing we have going for us is peer pressure and hunters' ethics," Stinebaugh says. "Most poachers have friends who are 100 percent law-abiding. We need these people to speak up."
One way to do that is to call (800) 792-GAME (4263). Now 20 years old, Operation Game Thief, the outdoors version of the successful Crime Stoppers effort, has stopped or prevented a lot of poaching.
Another way to discourage trophy deer poaching is for the various big buck competitions to adhere to strict standards.


"Ever since Los Cazadores was started in 1986, we have annually mandated polygraph exams for some of our top winners," Avant says. "We ask them things like: Were you properly entered in the contest prior to harvesting your deer? Did you have permission from the landowner of the property on which you harvested this deer to hunt and harvest this deer? Did you follow TPWD rules and regulations? Did you not kill this deer at night?"


Avant says no hunter has ever failed the test, though one did decline to take it. The only thing that stopped Eddy from poaching was a change in his attitude. But others are still in the business of stealing your deer. They think like Eddy used to think: "If I don't have a place to go hunting, any place is just fine."


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## [email protected] (May 24, 2004)

Trouthunter - Great story, thanks for bringing it here.


A friend loaned his copy of Charles Beaty's book recently and I began reading it out of curiosity, fully disgusted by the time I finished. All I can say is too bad they didn't catch him 20 years earlier.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Excellent post Martin. Thanks!


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## C.nebulosus (Feb 8, 2010)

-----that would be "stories" not "story's", Mr. Grammatical.


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## TTH (Apr 28, 2013)

This Charles Beaty character is straight scum. It's too bad that a ranch owner never found him armed on their property and poached him...

I always thought, as a ranch owner, that It would be very convenient to find an armed poacher on you property. I would think that a ranch owner would have a solid alibi of "He pointed his firearm at me on my property"....


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Thereâ€™s a pretty major breakdown in logic with a lot of this: itâ€™s publicly owned deer, but youâ€™re stealing them from the landowner? Uh, what? If itâ€™s in season, heâ€™s got a license, and he tags it, about all that heâ€™s really logically doing is trespassing... this isnâ€™t taking the landownerâ€™s Jeep, he doesnâ€™t even own the thing (despite constant whines to the contrary because said landowner spent buttloads of money selectively breeding the public property... thanks for the help, dude, but itâ€™s still our deer....). 

The guyâ€™s a piece of ****, for sure, but the way the Texas system is set up really has a lot of people claiming they own something that they really donâ€™t. If anybodyâ€™s stealing here, itâ€™s more likely the guy putting up the high fence and impounding our owned-fair-and-square deer...


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## TTH (Apr 28, 2013)

dwilliams35 said:


> Thereâ€™s a pretty major breakdown in logic with a lot of this: itâ€™s publicly owned deer, but youâ€™re stealing them from the landowner? Uh, what? If itâ€™s in season, heâ€™s got a license, and he tags it, about all that heâ€™s really logically doing is trespassing... this isnâ€™t taking the landownerâ€™s Jeep, he doesnâ€™t even own the thing (despite constant whines to the contrary because said landowner spent buttloads of money selectively breeding the public property... thanks for the help, dude, but itâ€™s still our deer....).
> 
> The guyâ€™s a piece of ****, for sure, but the way the Texas system is set up really has a lot of people claiming they own something that they really donâ€™t. If anybodyâ€™s stealing here, itâ€™s more likely the guy putting up the high fence and impounding our owned-fair-and-square deer...


I get the argument of a whitetail being a public resource trapped inside the land owner's "barrier", but what about the exotic animals that are on my property and not owned by the state? This poacher scum has instagram photos of nilgai poached. A nilgai is not owned by the state. An exotic animal is no different than rancher's cow. Trespassing armed with a firearm on another man's land is just plain wrong. It's not hunting, it's criminal. It's no different than an unknown person breaking and entering my home armed.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

TTH said:


> I get the argument of a whitetail being a public resource trapped inside the land owner's "barrier", but what about the exotic animals that are on my property and not owned by the state? This poacher scum has instagram photos of nilgai poached. A nilgai is not owned by the state. An exotic animal is no different than rancher's cow. Trespassing armed with a firearm on another man's land is just plain wrong. It's not hunting, it's criminal. It's no different than an unknown person breaking and entering my home armed.


That would be a different argument...thatâ€™s more akin to rustling cattle than poaching.


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## TTH (Apr 28, 2013)

dwilliams35 said:


> That would be a different argument...thatâ€™s more akin to rustling cattle than poaching.


Same argument. A Poacher cuts a fence or lock on a landowner's Highfence gate "breaks entry" then trespasses armed with a firearm or other weapon all with the intent of committing a felony.

If you don't like that the above scenario is a felony, than I guess contact your local congressman :rotfl: to change the law.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

TTH said:


> Same argument. A Poacher cuts a fence or lock on a landowner's Highfence gate "breaks entry" then trespasses armed with a firearm or other weapon all with the intent of committing a felony.
> 
> If you don't like that the above scenario is a felony, than I guess contact your local congressman :rotfl: to change the law.


. Did I ever condone trespassing in any way, shape, or form here? Iâ€™m simply pointing out the weakness in the argument that one guy is stealing whitetail deer from another..


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## grayson (Oct 21, 2011)

dwilliams35 said:


> Thereâ€™s a pretty major breakdown in logic with a lot of this: itâ€™s publicly owned deer, but youâ€™re stealing them from the landowner? Uh, what? If itâ€™s in season, heâ€™s got a license, and he tags it, about all that heâ€™s really logically doing is trespassing... this isnâ€™t taking the landownerâ€™s Jeep, he doesnâ€™t even own the thing (despite constant whines to the contrary because said landowner spent buttloads of money selectively breeding the public property... thanks for the help, dude, but itâ€™s still our deer....).
> 
> The guyâ€™s a piece of ****, for sure, but the way the Texas system is set up really has a lot of people claiming they own something that they really donâ€™t. If anybodyâ€™s stealing here, itâ€™s more likely the guy putting up the high fence and impounding our owned-fair-and-square deer...


Yes but at the end of the day the only way to poach is to trespass. For me there is no difference than if you broke into my home and stole something that I was keeping in my house for a friend - you still stole something and you still have no right to come onto my property unless invited


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

w/huntman3 on thisâ€¦
poaching is stealing
they stole a state resorceâ€¦
those deer were not taken legally...
so not only did they trespass(illegal) they shot deer 
that are off-limits(per state law) regardless who owns them


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

kweber said:


> w/huntman3 on thisâ€¦
> poaching is stealing
> they stole a state resorceâ€¦
> those deer were not taken legally...
> ...


. â€œI canâ€™t believe that poacher came onto my place and stole the stateâ€™s deerâ€...said no Texas Landowner, ever.


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## grayson (Oct 21, 2011)

dwilliams35 said:


> . â€œI canâ€™t believe that poacher came onto my place and stole the stateâ€™s deerâ€...said no Texas Landowner, ever.


Sorry Man but your post makes zero sense - so according to you ............. trespassing IS breaking the law and wrong.

So I will ask again - use this as an example -

You happen to have a rifle in your home that your buddy loaned you and a trespasser breaks into your house and steals your buddies rifle then you are ok with that?

Using your logic then anyone who wants to trespass onto someone elses property it is ok to take something because it is not owned by the property owner? Give me a break - weak argument

And yes you will respond I know because you cannot help from responding - wrong is wrong period no matter what your response is

PS This argument is moot anyway because nobody reads this forum any longer


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Poaching is wrong, but I still plan on reading the book if I can find a copy. Iâ€™m very curious about how they caught him.


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## Bukkskin (Oct 21, 2009)

:spineyes::spineyes:


dwilliams35 said:


> Thereâ€™s a pretty major breakdown in logic with a lot of this: itâ€™s publicly owned deer, but youâ€™re stealing them from the landowner? Uh, what? If itâ€™s in season, heâ€™s got a license, and he tags it, about all that heâ€™s really logically doing is trespassing... this isnâ€™t taking the landownerâ€™s Jeep, he doesnâ€™t even own the thing (despite constant whines to the contrary because said landowner spent buttloads of money selectively breeding the public property... thanks for the help, dude, but itâ€™s still our deer....).
> 
> The guyâ€™s a piece of ****, for sure, but the way the Texas system is set up really has a lot of people claiming they own something that they really donâ€™t. If anybodyâ€™s stealing here, itâ€™s more likely the guy putting up the high fence and impounding our owned-fair-and-square deer...


:spineyes::spineyes:
Dwill, your borderline Commie bro, just saying.


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## Bukkskin (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, the state ownes the deer. But as long as they are on your property they are basically yours to do what you want to with them. No one has the right to come onto your property and poach these animals off "your" property. 
Show me where I am wrong.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Huntman3 said:


> Sorry Man but your post makes zero sense - so according to you ............. trespassing IS breaking the law and wrong.
> 
> So I will ask again - use this as an example -
> 
> ...


point of order: your buddiesâ€™ rifle is your buddiesâ€™ rifle, even if it was leaning on the perimeter fence and you didnâ€™t have to trespass to get it. By contrast, the poacher has just as much of a legal claim on the deer as the landowner; all citizens of Texas own them equally. Trespassing to take it opens up a whole pile of chargeable offenses, but â€œstealingâ€ from the landowner isnâ€™t one of them logically. No matter how much the landowner whines about it, it is NEVER â€œhisâ€ deer exclusively. I own it, you own it, the poacher even owns it Up to a point.... like I said before, thanks for all the corn and protein, but itâ€™s still our deer.

Your turn.


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## batmaninja (Jul 15, 2010)

dwilliams35 said:


> By contrast, the poacher has just as much of a legal claim on the deer as the landowner; all citizens of Texas own them equally.


Same with surface water in TX.

I own it, you own it, but you will probably be shot if you try to take it while trespassing on private property :mpd: :texasflag


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Bukkskin said:


> Yes, the state ownes the deer. But as long as they are on your property they are basically yours to do what you want to with them. No one has the right to come onto your property *and poach these animals off "your" property. *
> Show me where I am wrong.


The bold part is unnecessary.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

```

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Bukkskin said:


> :spineyes::spineyes:
> 
> :spineyes::spineyes:
> Dwill, your borderline Commie bro, just saying.


I never said I agreed with or supported the policy...just saying that it flies in the face of a lot of people talking about somebody â€œstealing their propertyâ€...


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

so what about breeder whitetail that have been purchaced and their offspring?


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

kweber said:


> so what about breeder whitetail that have been purchaced and their offspring?


. Tough cookies. We appreciate the efforts at improving our deer.

Change the law if you donâ€™t like it, but try to shoot that breeder buck in July with a game warden present...see what happens.


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## Bukkskin (Oct 21, 2009)

kweber said:


> so what about breeder whitetail that have been purchaced and their offspring?


Once a breeder deer is released it is essentially public property and considered wild game again. Anyone can shoot it as long as they have permission to hunt the land that the deer lives on. In Texas, breeder deer can only be released onto property that is surrounded by a game proof fence.
A breeder deer cannot be taken "back" out of the wild and put back in a breeder pen, except for a DMP pen. But even in that case has to be released again after the breeding season.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

I bet that â€œPrincessâ€ of poachers had a hard time sitting in that chair after doing that time writing that book ðŸ˜‚. Just saying...


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## SeaOx 230C (Aug 12, 2005)

First let me say the guy that wrote the book is a criminal, he has at the least committed trespass and taking of PUBLICLY owned deer. He should be charged and prosecuted for any of his crimes that could be taken to Court.

It is this raging "Trophy" mentality that created the market for this type criminal activity in the first place.

Trophy hunters and landowners being allowed to contain *the Peoples Deer* inside a high fence to be raised like cattle so that some one with enough money for the "Lease" or a paid "Hunt" can shoot it and call themselves a Trophy Hunter is ushering in the end of what hunting has traditionally been.

Because of this "Trophy" at all cost mentality middle class families are being priced out of hunting today.

While the guy is criminal I am far more impressed by Trophy deer from days gone by than I am with the highly bred, highly artificially fed deer that people call "Trophies" today.

Seems to me our Priorities as a Society are a bit out of wack. You can drive around the State with your toddler crawling around in the back seat unrestrained and all you get is a ticket a small fine. But kill a deer while trespassing and it's now a State Jail Felony that can result in not only jail time but lose of your rights to vote or own a fire arm?


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## kweber (Sep 20, 2005)

Texas Trophy Hunter magazine started a lot of this...
notoriety...


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