# Would you shoot?



## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

In the scenario outlined here, http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=439258, guy robs you at knife point at the ATM and gets the max of $400 from you, turns away and walks or backs away toward his car and leaves you physically unharmed. When he gets 20 ft or so away, would you pull your concealed weapon and shoot him over the $400????????

For me personally, and I hold a CHL, I don't think that $400 is worth killing a man and dealing with the emotional and financial burden to get over/out of the issue. It would also be hard for me to respond to a DA who asks, Mr. H, were you in fear for your life as the guy walked away and the threat was over with no sign of him returning?

I don't think I can completely and for sure answer that question sitting here behind this keyboard, the situation as it occurred would dictate, but the above concerns would be present in my decision.

P.S. I would like to think that I am aware enough of my surroundings so as to prevent someone getting that close to me. To be sure, if he was advancing and had the knife, I would not hesitate to protect myself, not fully knowing the outcome at that point.


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## CORNHUSKER (Jul 12, 2004)

Most really have no idea what they would really do until they are put in that exact situation. 

Oughtta be fun to listen to all the, "I'd blow his head off", keyboard cowgirls though!!!


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## WilliamH (May 21, 2004)

Could you lawfully hold him at gunpoint until the cops showed up?


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

I would have shot him in his kneecap so the police could come arrest him.


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## patfatdaddy (May 29, 2004)

I absolutely agree with everything you have said here and I would not shoot either. The most important statement you have made is "I wouldn't let him get that close to me."
Pat


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## FINNFOWLER (Sep 2, 2004)

My anger level and him leaving and walking away.... I don't know for sure say 50/50?


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## a couple more (Mar 19, 2009)

CORNHUSKER said:


> Most really have no idea what they would really do until they are put in that exact situation.
> 
> Oughtta be fun to listen to all the, "I'd blow his head off", keyboard cowgirls though!!!


X2- I hope I never have to find out...


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## Gilbert (May 25, 2004)

I would have fed him an elbow to the face then gave him an arse whipping that he would never forget.


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## TranTheMan (Aug 17, 2009)

Call me chicken-poop if you want to, but I would not shoot over the $400. But I would ask him to give back me the $$$. The situation would be different if it were a home invasion where I would have to protect my loved ones.


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## texasislandboy (Apr 28, 2012)

I think I could have.. If he pulled a knife on me who else is he going to do that too? Its better to stop the threat after it happened then to let it happen again... + I would have shot him long before he started to walk away...


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## Barefoot Boy (Sep 27, 2005)

Wow, that ATM setup looks like it boxes you in!
You can't shoot, once the threat's over.


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## BBCAT (Feb 2, 2010)

Very hard to say. But if I can prevent a thief from taking anything from me I will. Whether it's $4.00 or $400.00. I can't stant a POS thief.


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## cloudfishing (May 8, 2005)

I would not shoot him but the end result would have been different if I had a gun, my 400 would not be walking away.


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

HydraSports said:


> In the scenario outlined here, http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=439258, guy robs you at knife point at the ATM and gets the max of $400 from you, turns away and walks or backs away toward his car and leaves you physically unharmed. When he gets 20 ft or so away, would you pull your concealed weapon and shoot him over the $400????????
> 
> For me personally, and I hold a CHL, I don't think that $400 is worth killing a man and dealing with the emotional and financial burden to get over/out of the issue.* It would also be hard for me to respond to a DA who asks, Mr. H, were you in fear for your life as the guy walked away and the threat was over with no sign of him returning? *
> 
> ...


re-read the penal code as it pertains to fresh pursuit and fleeing after immediate commission of aggravated robbery. (Penal Code Sections 9.41 and 9.42)


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## Court (Jul 16, 2011)

Would hold him at gunpoint until police came & if he tried to leave I would give him a warning shot if he did not stop the next shot would count-Has nothing to do with the amount of money but everything to do with the crime committed-Just be one more bad guy off the streets that I don't have to worry about harming my family.


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

Barefoot Boy said:


> Wow, that ATM setup looks like it boxes you in!
> You can't shoot, once the threat's over.


not true (IMHO)

let's say he tried to rob you and you pull a weapon...

then he reconsiders and says "no way - I'm leaving"

if you shoot - you're not justified.

the law is clear on this.

if you follow in fresh pursuit after immediate commission of certain crimes - you are justified

link to the CHL pamplet you get when your CHL arrives in the mail, sections Penal Code begin on page 57:

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetforms/forms/chl-16.pdf


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## Outearly (Nov 17, 2009)

This is a bit of a thread hijack - I once walked up to an ATM in the Galleria before work - about 6:30 AM, hardly anyone around. I noticed a car pull into a lot across the street, and just sat in my car and watched the guy, looked him in the eye for a few minutes, and he started up and drove off. Clearly ready to walk up behind me.

I called the cops, gave a description, etc. They said robberies at ATMs happen that way all of the time.


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## OrangeS30 (Jun 21, 2009)

I try to be aware of my surroundings as well. I have a CHL and hate to ever have to use it. Had a buddy go through this very thing once. He didn't have a CHL or even a gun for that matter. He did beat the living **** out of the guy that tried to take his money though.


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## Outearly (Nov 17, 2009)

Re-read my post - drove up to the lot in front of a walk-up ATM -didn't get out of the car


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## ralph7 (Apr 28, 2009)

obvious from some of the replies that either those respondents never took a chl class or they didn't listen to the instructor.

you don't shoot unless it is to stop the threat, which means a shot in a vital area, causing death or immediate incapacitation.

to answer the question, i don't know what i would have done, either.


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## BATWING (May 9, 2008)

If a guy is holding you at "knife point" and about to force you to give cash, and you have a weapon to defend yourself. 

Out of fear I would want to shoot, being scared for my life. As soon as I see the blade on threat I would want to pull my weapon. What about all the other people he is going to rob after he leaves. 


**I am not a CHL holder...


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## rsmith (Jun 29, 2007)

If you shoot him and I am on the jury it is going to be at least a hung jury.


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## Lagniappe2008 (Jan 20, 2008)

Interesting discussion. I can tell you in all honesty that I would pull the gun on him after the fact (if I couldn't have before hand) and would shoot him in the leg if he tried to get away. Then I'd get my $400 back and I would knock him around until I felt better about the situation or until the cops got there. At least that is what I would want to do. I like some others don't really think it's about the amount of money. If someone has the ability to pull a knife on someone to steal from them, then they are probably capable of lots of really bad things. If they put themselves in that kind of a situation, they need to be prepared to pay the ultimate consequences.


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## boltmaster (Aug 16, 2011)

patfatdaddy said:


> i absolutely agree with everything you have said here and i would not shoot either. The most important statement you have made is "i wouldn't let him get that close to me."
> pat


yup! I think he summed it up. it may not always work but you have to be on your guard always and especially at high risk target locations like an ATM for sure. if it dont look safe move on.
but if you do get bushwacked and you walk away with your health and life the lost of a few hundred bucks will be cheap to the grief that will come your way if you gun the crook down "after" the fact. it would be a different story if i saw him comming at me with a knife. tough call to be sure. hope i never get into having to make the call.
i hope they catch the POS that did it.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

speckle-catcher said:


> re-read the penal code as it pertains to fresh pursuit and fleeing after immediate commission of aggravated robbery. (Penal Code Sections 9.41 and 9.42)


I know the code and I know about "fresh pursuit" as you call it, it was very clearly taught at my CHL class as well as researched on my own. If I shoot the guy in the back while he is walking to his car with my money, it is a defense against prosecution. BUT and a huge BUT as my OP said, is it worth the $400 in mental and financial trouble to kill the guy? THAT is the question, I know the law.


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

what if you don't shoot - you now have a clear conscience other than being ****** off for being robbed...next day, you see they same guy's picture on the news...and he's just beaten an old lady to death during a similar aggravated robbery? Or a young single mother?

how's that mental burden now?


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## fish1kemah (Feb 26, 2009)

On the other side of this story I lost a BIL at a GCCA banquet at the old Sheraton some 26 years ago. Life ws taken by two worthless POS's that murdered him at Rice Stadium. I promissed my self I will not be a victim under any circumstances and that promise holds true today. 

F1K


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## WRsteveX (Sep 6, 2012)

I try to never get cornered like that. Use drive thru ATMs and such. Also very mindful of surroundings. I doubt he wouldve gotten close enough to rob me with a knife without me noticing. That being said, I do not have a chl. Yet. But I do have a couple concealable pistols that I don't carry everywhere, but are usually in the truck, nightstand, wherever, and I've been known to stick them iwb in uncomfortable situations.

Considering all of this, the way it more than likely would've gone down, is I would pull my weapon, and made **** sure he was convinced I'm prepared to use it to defend myself. I would've tried to hold him there until LEO's arrived, but wouldn't have fired more than a warning shot if he made a break for it. 

My dad held a few (3) hoodlums at gunpoint at our tractor dealership trying to steal stuff till the cops got there with my 870 marine magnum.


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## speckledred (Jun 1, 2004)

I don't know what I would do until presented with the threat. I do know I would not attempt to wound the perp and hold for the police. That's setting yourself up for a huge lawsuit and no way would I put myself in that position. Beating the ***** out of him and taking the money back is quite a bit different and I would use any means as a threat to the perp to begin that action!


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## Hevy Dee (May 26, 2004)

*Hmmmm*

To me the money and the theft of it is not the issue. If someone pulled a knife on me (despite the reason), I would be in danger of being wounded or possibly killed. If I was packing a gun, I would not hesitate to defend myself at the first possible moment I could realistically do so. If that moment in time happened to be while he was walking away with my money in his hand, so be it. Who is to say he would not turn around and approach me again or someone else?

As others have said, it is difficult to say what you would actually do until actually confronted with the situation described, but I think I would have shot him if I had the chance. Again, it would not have mattered if he stole anything or not - he just threated me with a knife and the threat was still there. Good question for discussion.


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## WRsteveX (Sep 6, 2012)

rsmith said:


> If you shoot him and I am on the jury it is going to be at least a hung jury.


What?


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Lagniappe2008 said:


> Interesting discussion. I can tell you in all honesty that I would pull the gun on him after the fact (if I couldn't have before hand) and would shoot him in the leg if he tried to get away. Then I'd get my $400 back and I would knock him around until I felt better about the situation or until the cops got there.


I think something along these lines is where I would be, maybe step in front of the car and as soon as he moves it forward toward me shoot him. I truly don't know, but my position and thinking about CHL and guns to kill humans in general is they are just there to get me enough space to get the HE77 out of there or to stop an eminent threat. Not to kill someone over the pay for a few hours of work, just my two cents worth.


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## GuyFromHuntsville (Aug 4, 2011)

InfamousJ said:


> I would have shot him in his kneecap so the police could come arrest him.


I'm not a CHL holder, but I always heard that wounding someone does nothing but cause you unending legal problems.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

He wouldn't leave with my money or his knife.

TH


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## WRsteveX (Sep 6, 2012)

rsmith said:


> If you shoot him and I am on the jury it is going to be at least a hung jury.


?


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## BigGelvis (Nov 8, 2010)

speckle-catcher said:


> what if you don't shoot - you now have a clear conscience other than being ****** off for being robbed...next day, you see they same guy's picture on the news...and he's just beaten an old lady to death during a similar aggravated robbery? Or a young single mother?
> 
> how's that mental burden now?


Very well said!!

As for me? It may very well be different when and if that ever happens to me. But with a sound mind I have at this time, I would shoot to kill and worry about the rest later. 
I don't know if he will return to silence me or what. I will not give him the chance. He chose death when he robbed me as far as I am concerned.

I could live with killing a man a lot better than living with knowing I let him get away to do harm to someone who can't defend them self at all!


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## BATWING (May 9, 2008)

speckle-catcher said:


> what if you don't shoot - you now have a clear conscience other than being ****** off for being robbed...next day, you see they same guy's picture on the news...and he's just beaten an old lady to death during a similar aggravated robbery? Or a young single mother?
> 
> how's that mental burden now?


Spot on! Your post reminds me of that scene in Saving Private Ryan when young grunt lets the German walk and proceeds to kill his brethren later..


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## teamgafftop1 (Aug 30, 2010)

I don't know what the legal interpretation was but many years ago in SA three guys robbed a gun store. One (or more) employees chased them down the sidewalk outside and shot at least two of them in the back as they made their escape. I think both of those guys died at the scene and I don't remember what happened to the third guy. In the end, no charges were filed. So, at least in that case, making pursuit and shooting the perps in the back turned out to be okay.


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## rsmith (Jun 29, 2007)

WRsteveX said:


> What?


Duh! Hung jury means that at least there is not a guilty verdict.


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## Texas T (May 21, 2004)

Barefoot Boy said:


> Wow, that ATM setup looks like it boxes you in!
> You can't shoot, once the threat's over.


I remember the Asst DA for Harris County when she said "you can shoot to stop a felony from being committed and you can shoot the individual from fleeing after committing the felony."


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## ralph7 (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *rsmith*  
_If you shoot him and I am on the jury it is going to be at least a *hung* jury. _



> What?


bragging on his "junk"?


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

speckle-catcher said:


> what if you don't shoot - you now have a clear conscience other than being ****** off for being robbed...next day, you see they same guy's picture on the news...and he's just beaten an old lady to death during a similar aggravated robbery? Or a young single mother?
> 
> how's that mental burden now?


Very good point, again, I truly don't know what I would do. Other side of the coin, the guys baby is sick and needs medication and this is the only way he can get the money? Who knows what his circumstance is. In any case, I still feel like my license to carry only affords me the opportunity to protect myself and others from immediate danger. I can't predict the future. I guess I would just have to bear the burden of that innocent person being on my conscience.

I will say this, if I didn't have a CHL and didn't know the law, I might have a different opinion. I for sure hate a thief as bad as anybody and my instinct is to kill them all and let God sort them, but I do know better so I must make a judgement call (very similar to a LEO).


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## Bob Keyes (Mar 16, 2011)

While I would prefer defuse the situation vebally, the decision has been made long ago if I am forced to draw I WILL fire, no hesitation just a single smooth action, no warning shots no "shooting to wound", 3 rounds center of mass. In the situation described the perp has already decided that $400 is worth more than your life or he would not have threatened you with leathal force, is his life worth more than YOURS?

Bob


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## KarrMar (Jul 12, 2011)

Bob Keyes said:


> While I would defuse the situation vebally, the decision has been made long ago if I am forced to draw I WILL fire, no hesitation just a single smooth action, no warning shots no "shooting to wound", 3 rounds center of mass. In the situation described the perp has already decided that $400 is worth more than your life or he would not have threatened you with leathal force, is his life worth more than YOURS?
> 
> Bob


 Totally agree. The guy has put you in that position so the way I see it, its him or me.


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## Won Hunglo (Apr 24, 2007)

HydraSports said:


> In the scenario outlined here, http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=439258, guy robs you at knife point at the ATM and gets the max of $400 from you, turns away and walks or backs away toward his car and leaves you physically unharmed. When he gets 20 ft or so away, would you pull your concealed weapon and shoot him over the $400????????
> 
> For me personally, and I hold a CHL, I don't think that $400 is worth killing a man and dealing with the emotional and financial burden to get over/out of the issue. It would also be hard for me to respond to a DA who asks, Mr. H, *were you in fear for your life as the guy walked away and the threat was over with no sign of him returning*?
> 
> ...


You should be in elevated fear of your life if he turns away from you. You can no-longer see his hands, face & front of the bad guys body. You can no-longer access his intentions. End the threat with a double tap.


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## jd99problems (Sep 20, 2009)

Tough call.....but I do love to hear the stories of citizens protecting themselves with deadly force....makes me wonder how many thieves decide not to rob because of the fear of being hurt for a few hundred dollars....If you can do anything to deter crime, do it....your actions may keep someone from hurting me or my family and I would hope that my actions may keep someone from hurting you or your family.......


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## poppadawg (Aug 10, 2007)

Threads like this are always entertaining.


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## SURF Buster (Feb 17, 2008)

My response is the SOB should not have brought a knife to a gunfight. You can figure out the rest.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

GuyFromHuntsville said:


> I'm not a CHL holder, but I always heard that wounding someone does nothing but cause you unending legal problems.


as soon as someone held a knife to me, my life is in danger of being extinguished.... that said, my mind is on survival, walking away or not, any open chance to defend myself would be taken, that is on my mind and the threat will be handled as any threat would be handled, there is no resetting of the survival clock...

say you are in a store with a gunman, and he comes up pointing a gun saying for you to shut up or he is going to kill you, then turns and walks away to keep robbing the store clerk, are you going to shoot him? He walked away from you, he won't be shooting YOU. Do you let him rob and walk out since he won't be shooting at you?


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## devil1824 (Sep 4, 2010)

CORNHUSKER said:


> Most really have no idea what they would really do until they are put in that exact situation.
> 
> Oughtta be fun to listen to all the, "I'd blow his head off", keyboard cowgirls though!!!


First reply is the correct answer!!

And I would like to think, My situational awareness would not let it get to that point.:ac550:


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## DickyT (Jan 17, 2012)

GuyFromHuntsville said:


> I'm not a CHL holder, but I always heard that wounding someone does nothing but cause you unending legal problems.


 Several years ago I was leaving work at midnight after working late in downtown Houston. There were people everywhere. I got to my car and opened the trunk to put my weapon in. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw two young punks running toward me. One had a knife in his hand, at about 5 feet I shot twice.
There were probably 30-40 witnesses and police working security at a club across the street were there in less than a minute. I was the one treated like a criminal. Put into the back of the police car for about an hour and a half. My weapon taken. 
18 monhs later I get a letter stating that I am being sued by the punk that I shot. Another 2 years pass and I finally get a court date. Punk has a doctor to go to court with him. Dr says that punk has internal injuries and probably will not live to the age of 25. Punk's mama boo-hoos and falls to the floor.* I lose* and am ordered to pay the punk $325,000.
Then last summer I get a letter from an attorney saying that he represents the punk. The punk is now in TDC for 20 years. Attorney tells me that the punk is willing to work with me and is asking that I put $200 a month in his commissary account so that he will have some spending money. I sent the punk a money order for $1.00 and that will be the last he will ever get from me.


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## monster (Apr 11, 2008)

I'd give him such a frowning.


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## Lone-Star (Dec 19, 2009)

HydraSports said:


> In the scenario outlined here, http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=439258, guy robs you at knife point at the ATM and gets the max of $400 from you, turns away and walks or backs away toward his car and leaves you physically unharmed. When he gets 20 ft or so away, would you pull your concealed weapon and shoot him over the $400????????
> 
> For me personally, and I hold a CHL, I don't think that $400 is worth killing a man and dealing with the emotional and financial burden to get over/out of the issue. It would also be hard for me to respond to a DA who asks, Mr. H, were you in fear for your life as the guy walked away and the threat was over with no sign of him returning?
> 
> ...


No, if I truly felt the threat was over I would not shoot. $400 is not worth the headache, considering I will probably end up dropping several tens of thousands of dollars on lawyer fees and God knows what kind of hell the texas medical board would put me through.

Wouldn't hold it against anyone who would though either, $400 just isnt worth it to me.


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## Hotrod (Oct 11, 2006)

No back shots. But if he didnt turn around, Id put a few in his car tires or car so the police could hopefully catch him


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## sfn01 (Aug 8, 2009)

I have had my CHL for 3 years and have had to draw my weapon twice. The first time was just 6 weeks after I got the CHL. In broad daylight, a man came to me at a gas station and "asked"...demanded that I give him some money. I didn't have any cash on me, but wouldn't have given him any money anyway! I politely told him that I didn't have any cash. I do help people like this from time to time, but this guy immediately came across as demanding and not a good guy. He came from an old beat up suburban. He went back to his truck and I kept pumping the gas. He came back around with a billy club on a wrist lanyard and was swinging it around and the catching it in his hand and slapping it in his other palm. He was walking toward be with a nasty grin on his face. I told him he needed to stop and turn around. He then told me that he had no intention of leaving without money and kept coming. At this point, he was maybe 15 steps away from me. I drew my weapon and held it at ready low position and told him again to stop. I thought certainly that he would stop! He wasn't that smart! He kept coming and after a couple more steps I raised the gun and aimed in center mass and loudly told him that this was his last warning. My finger was on the trigger and I had decided that he wouldn't get within 5 steps of me before I shot. He was within about 6 or 7 steps when he stopped and stared and after what seemed like hours, he turned and got in his truck and left.

I have heard many guys say that if they draw the weapon, it will be used. I don't agree. I could have easily taken the shot and been within my legal rights, according to several law enforcement officers that I have talked with about the situation. However, I was shaken just by having to do what I did. I was thrilled that I didn't HAVE to pull the trigger. I would have, but I'm glad I didn't have to! I called the police immediately and told them what happened and that I had pulled my gun.

To answer the above question, I would have drawn the gun as soon as possible and shot if I had no other choice. It is amazing what being in that situation does to you. It would be very difficult to deal with if you actually have to pull the trigger. 

The next situation I was in was even more deadly and a longer story. I won't type it unless someone actually wants to hear it.


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## boom! (Jul 10, 2004)

I wouldn't let someone get that close to me at an atm. He'd better know how to throw that knife.


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## Hevy Dee (May 26, 2004)

*I'm wondering ...*

... why so many of you are hung up on the money. Lets take the money out of the equation - see scenario below.

You are packing a loaded concealed handgun and are walking alone in a parking lot. Some dude sneaks up behind you and pulls out a knife and puts the blade against your back. In my mind I would be calculating how to get myself out of harms way. The easiest way to do that would be to have a chance to draw your weapon and shoot the sob. It does not matter if he stole anything from me or not. That would be the least of my worries at that point in time.


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## Hotrod (Oct 11, 2006)

sfn01 said:


> I have had my CHL for 3 years and have had to draw my weapon twice. The first time was just 6 weeks after I got the CHL. In broad daylight, a man came to me at a gas station and "asked"...demanded that I give him some money. I didn't have any cash on me, but wouldn't have given him any money anyway! I politely told him that I didn't have any cash. I do help people like this from time to time, but this guy immediately came across as demanding and not a good guy. He came from an old beat up suburban. He went back to his truck and I kept pumping the gas. He came back around with a billy club on a wrist lanyard and was swinging it around and the catching it in his hand and slapping it in his other palm. He was walking toward be with a nasty grin on his face. I told him he needed to stop and turn around. He then told me that he had no intention of leaving without money and kept coming. At this point, he was maybe 15 steps away from me. I drew my weapon and held it at ready low position and told him again to stop. I thought certainly that he would stop! He wasn't that smart! He kept coming and after a couple more steps I raised the gun and aimed in center mass and loudly told him that this was his last warning. My finger was on the trigger and I had decided that he wouldn't get within 5 steps of me before I shot. He was within about 6 or 7 steps when he stopped and stared and after what seemed like hours, he turned and got in his truck and left.
> 
> I have heard many guys say that if they draw the weapon, it will be used. I don't agree. I could have easily taken the shot and been within my legal rights, according to several law enforcement officers that I have talked with about the situation. However, I was shaken just by having to do what I did. I was thrilled that I didn't HAVE to pull the trigger. I would have, but I'm glad I didn't have to! I called the police immediately and told them what happened and that I had pulled my gun.
> 
> ...


Id like to hear the other story as well, thanks.


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## REEL CRAZY (Dec 21, 2005)

Yep


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## Won Hunglo (Apr 24, 2007)

sfn01 said:


> The next situation I was in was even more deadly and a longer story. I won't type it unless someone actually wants to hear it.


Please do tell!


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

One morning when I was young, 20 or so. I was filling up at a loves around 3am heading to a concrete pour. Guy came walking up, I kept the truck door between me and him with my hand on a gun. He was tring to sell a watch. I could tell from the blood and dirt he had stole it off someone. I told him no, and he turned to walk off. As he did I saw him pull something out from his waste. He started to turn back toward me again, I figured it was a gun. So I pulled my gun up and had it dead between his eyes when he made the turn. He only had a knife, scared the **** out of him. Dropped the knife and watch and took off running. I went into the store and told the clerk what had happened and gave them the knife and watch. Also gave them my contact number, this was before I had cell phones and where I would be pouring at because I had to go. About daylight two cop cars pulled up and asked bossman to talk to me. Of course the guys were giving me hell as I made my way out of the pour, taking guesses as to why I was going to jail. The cops had caught the guy a couple of blocks away running down the side of the highway. Said it scared the **** out of him looking down the barrel of that .357. I IDed him for them and they took him to jail. 

Couple of years later the same guy came onto one of my job sites looking for work. He did not recognize me, I was not hiring at the time but found him a job with another contractor on site. Seemed he had cleaned up his act, never saw him again.



In the case with the ATM, if the guy was leaving I would have pulled my gun and told him to stop. When he did not good chance I would have shot tires, radiator, what ever to make it hard for them to get away. If I would have got the gun up before he got to me with the knife, he would have gotten one warning. If he kept coming forward he would get taken out.


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

I wouldn't shoot someone in the back over $400, and it's not his well-being I would be worried about, it would be my own.

And for all of you gun-toting cowboys who think you could just shoot and and kill someone without it effecting you are either delusional or sick in the head.

However, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone if it came down to either me or him if I thought it was my life or his.


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## Profish00 (May 21, 2004)

sfn01 said:


> I have had my CHL for 3 years and have had to draw my weapon twice. The first time was just 6 weeks after I got the CHL. In broad daylight, a man came to me at a gas station and "asked"...demanded that I give him some money. I didn't have any cash on me, but wouldn't have given him any money anyway! I politely told him that I didn't have any cash. I do help people like this from time to time, but this guy immediately came across as demanding and not a good guy. He came from an old beat up suburban. He went back to his truck and I kept pumping the gas. He came back around with a billy club on a wrist lanyard and was swinging it around and the catching it in his hand and slapping it in his other palm. He was walking toward be with a nasty grin on his face. I told him he needed to stop and turn around. He then told me that he had no intention of leaving without money and kept coming. At this point, he was maybe 15 steps away from me. I drew my weapon and held it at ready low position and told him again to stop. I thought certainly that he would stop! He wasn't that smart! He kept coming and after a couple more steps I raised the gun and aimed in center mass and loudly told him that this was his last warning. My finger was on the trigger and I had decided that he wouldn't get within 5 steps of me before I shot. He was within about 6 or 7 steps when he stopped and stared and after what seemed like hours, he turned and got in his truck and left.
> 
> I have heard many guys say that if they draw the weapon, it will be used. I don't agree. I could have easily taken the shot and been within my legal rights, according to several law enforcement officers that I have talked with about the situation. However, I was shaken just by having to do what I did. I was thrilled that I didn't HAVE to pull the trigger. I would have, but I'm glad I didn't have to! I called the police immediately and told them what happened and that I had pulled my gun.
> 
> ...


You didn't learn much in class, If you pull out the gun you shoot it.


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## letsgofishbro (Feb 8, 2012)

I was weary as to what I would do but after reading everything you guys have to say and thinking about the laws. I number one don't let me people get behind me because of my constant attention to details and paranoia from the military. If somehow he did get close to me I would shoot. No doubt about it I would yell hey and shoot him in the chest. I could not imagine how i would feel if he came and did something like that to a woman or some harmless person. One shot one kill.


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

Profish00 said:


> You didn't learn much in class, If you pull out the gun you shoot it.


That's bull****. If there are CHL instructors who teach that, they shouldn't be CHL instructors.

More often than not, just pulling a gun should be an effective deterrent. If you pull a gun, you should definitely be ready and willing to pull the trigger, but it shouldn't be mandatory.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Let's change the scenario just a little. You come home for lunch, the back door opens and what appears to be a kid, maybe even a girl due to the long hair, is walking away carrying your $400 Bose surround system which you can clearly identify. You can also clearly see a big knife in their hand. Do you shoot? IMO, the legal circumstances are the same, you have been robbed and the perp is leaving with your stuff.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

It would hardly seem fair to shoot someone with a broken foot, several broken ribs, a knife shoved up his arse and him laying there bleeding. I think I would just call the Liberty cops within about 20 minutes or so and let them deal with it.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Sep 7, 2012)

Backing away or not you would be justified in shooting the actor. It would be something that you would have to live with for the rest of your life, but on the flip side, you could/may have prevented this person from doing this to someone else and possibly even harming the next victim.

I am in law enforcement and carry a gun just about 100% of the time. For those that are not and elect to obtain a CHL, what is the purpose in obtaining it if when the situation arises you are not going to use it. For law enforcement and CHL holders alike, the purpose in carrying a weapon is to protect yourself, your property, and others. Even politicians have seen that with all the violent crimes (weapons involved including a knife) they have enacted laws (ie. "Castle Doctrine) which do not make a person have the "duty to retreat" and can protect themselves and/or property.

I don't in any way want this to come across as "vigilante justice" but when the general public begins to stand up for what is right and take back a "good society", it will deter alot of the criminal element from targeting the good citizens of this State.

Just my opinion...


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## fishntx62 (Oct 25, 2011)

I would shoot him so he doesnt have a chance to do it again


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

No, he has you. Unless shooting him in the back as he runs is an option, but ,to me, the threat has been removed so call the PO PO and file a report.
Didn't read all the other responses, just the OP.


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

Mont said:


> It would hardly seem fair to shoot someone with a broken foot, several broken ribs, a knife shoved up his arse and him laying there bleeding. I think I would just call the Liberty cops within about 20 minutes or so and let them deal with it.


That's not going to happen. Most ATM's robbers would wait for someone a little smaller than you or me.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Mont said:


> It would hardly seem fair to shoot someone with a broken foot, several broken ribs, a knife shoved up his arse and him laying there bleeding. I think I would just call the Liberty cops within about 20 minutes or so and let them deal with it.


A broken foot?????? WTH. That's an arse whooping right there!!!!!!


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

mastercylinder said:


> That's not going to happen. Most ATM's robbers would wait for someone a little smaller than you or me.


Oh man, there you go again, calling me fat. All this time, I thought we was friends 

Let me start again.

He trips over his broken foot that I, completely on accident, put my size 18 boot through the entire top of his punto arch. Then, his kewl shades get shoved through his eyeballs by my left fist to his face. He was looking for a right hander...


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## 6.5 shooter dude (Jan 8, 2008)

That is the reason I carry a checkbook to pay my bills


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## sfn01 (Aug 8, 2009)

*I learned a lot in and OUT of class!*



Profish00 said:


> You didn't learn much in class, If you pull out the gun you shoot it.


I have heard many people say the same thing!

I think just because you pull your weapon to prepare to defend yourself doesn't mean that you check your brain at the edge of the holster! In some situations, the gun comes out and the trigger is pulled immediately. In other situations, like this one, the gun comes out and the bad guy decided that he would rather leave in a beat up truck than in a hearse.

BOTH of us made the right decision in that situation.


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

I would run away like a little girl.


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## KarrMar (Jul 12, 2011)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> Backing away or not you would be justified in shooting the actor. It would be something that you would have to live with for the rest of your life, but on the flip side, you could/may have prevented this person from doing this to someone else and possibly even harming the next victim.
> 
> I am in law enforcement and carry a gun just about 100% of the time. For those that are not and elect to obtain a CHL, what is the purpose in obtaining it if when the situation arises you are not going to use it. For law enforcement and CHL holders alike, the purpose in carrying a weapon is to protect yourself, your property, and others. Even politicians have seen that with all the violent crimes (weapons involved including a knife) they have enacted laws (ie. "Castle Doctrine) which do not make a person have the "duty to retreat" and can protect themselves and/or property.
> 
> ...


Very well said


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## lost-in-salt (Aug 12, 2005)

I have read this entire thread and I am amazed that some CHL holders don't know what they would do if the situation were to arise. If you are taking the responsibility of carrying a weapon you should be responsible enough to run scenario's like this through your head consistently and know what you would do before it ever happens. If you don't make that decision now you are puttting your life in jeapordy when it does happen.

I am even more amazed at how many would fire a warning shot. You are responsible for the bullet you fire until that bullet comes to a complete stop. Their is absolutely no reason or purpose in firing a warning shot.


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## mastercylinder60 (Dec 18, 2005)

Mont said:


> Oh man, there you go again, calling me fat. All this time, I thought we was friends
> 
> Let me start again.
> 
> He trips over his broken foot that I, completely on accident, put my size 18 boot through the entire top of his punto arch. Then, his kewl shades get shoved through his eyeballs by my left fist to his face. He was looking for a right hander...





Gary said:


> I would run away like a little girl.


Y'all made me laugh. I like it when people make me laugh. Greenies.



> You must spread some Reputation around around before giving it to Gary again


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## Won Hunglo (Apr 24, 2007)

HydraSports said:


> Let's change the scenario just a little. You come home for lunch, the back door opens and what appears to be a kid, maybe even a girl due to the long hair, is walking away carrying your $400 Bose surround system which you can clearly identify. You can also clearly see a big knife in their hand. Do you shoot? IMO, the legal circumstances are the same, you have been robbed and the perp is leaving with your stuff.


Not for me to decide shoot or no shoot. I will let the Medical Examiner determine the sex and age.


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## Won Hunglo (Apr 24, 2007)

I don't always shoot my robbers, but when I do, it is in the back.


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## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

In my past line of work (pharmacist) I was personally on the wrong end of a gun (admitedly NOT a knife) about six or seven times in my career...and I can tell you one thing for sure...More things will go thru your mind in that few seconds or minutes than you can imagine. Adrenalin is a powerful thing. I have a CHL and was carrying a few times but all episodes were short and the perp was usually more nervous than we were..Instance that fits here is a guy who held up four of us..got his bag full of mebbe three hunnert bucks worth of pills and had me let him out the back door. I had on my jacket and the .38 in my back belt holster. He smiled at me, put his gun in his pocket and walked away across the parking lot. In that few seconds I could have dropped him like a sack of oats..BUT my mind was racing with the thoughts..."Well, if I kill him I've gotta drag his body back inside to make it legal..He only has a couple of hundred bucks worth of pills and my insurance will pay me for it...He hasn't hurt anybody...If I kill him his family will be sueing me from here to kingdom come...Etc..Etc.." Honestly..every one of those thoughts raced thru my mind in maybe 10 seconds. I let him walk.. Did I do the right thing ???.. In my mind..Yes... NOW, if he had tried to rob us with a knife...or if he had been beating up anybody in the store or I thought he was actually going to pull the trigger..the story would have been completely different..LOL

Every situation has/will always be different..but actually killing someone is a BIG DEAL.. 

Out of all my experiences...the perp has ALWAYS been caught or killed by LEOs somewhere down the line...so that is another consideration.


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## ol' salt (Jun 11, 2006)

I carry becuase I'm too old to take an ***whoppin. I'm glad this many of us carry in case some nut walks into a theatre where I am watching a movie. I don't care if you shoot him or not, but I will. I intend to go to the ATM, in the bank ,in broad daylight ,with everybody watching. That's me on the left. The old Fart.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

lost-in-salt said:


> I have read this entire thread and I am amazed that some CHL holders don't know what they would do if the situation were to arise. If you are taking the responsibility of carrying a weapon you should be responsible enough to run scenario's like this through your head consistently and know what you would do before it ever happens. If you don't make that decision now you are puttting your life in jeapordy when it does happen.
> 
> I am even more amazed at how many would fire a warning shot. You are responsible for the bullet you fire until that bullet comes to a complete stop. Their is absolutely no reason or purpose in firing a warning shot.


IMO, this is a very unique situation and why I chose to start the thread. Somebody breaks in the house, try's to jack your car, mug you at one of the gas station scenarios, no question almost to a man CHL holders will shoot with no regret or hesitation. This scenario requires a more detailed decision to be made and the timeframe to do it is not so urgent because IMO, the true and eminent danger is lower or non existent, but the law allows latitude for the decision to shoot. Would you shoot?
Edit: Jim (tortuga) hit the nail on the head above.


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## fishNwithfish (Aug 17, 2011)

I personally would shoot him. I don't care if it was over $10. It don't matter, what happens when he does this to someone else and stabs that person and you could have stopped him @ the time? So I say shoot and ask questions later. IMO


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## sfn01 (Aug 8, 2009)

Since a couple of you asked me to write second story...here it is.

I was on Hwy 146 on a Sunday afternoon and saw a car about 1/4 mile in front of me just make a quick turn right into the ditch. By the time i got stopped to see if i could help, I was about 100 yards in front of the car which was pointed nose down in a very wide ditch about 3 feet deep. I was walking a few steps toward the car when the engine revved up and the guy rocked back then down into the bottom of the ditch...The guy turned and headed right up the ditch with throttle wide open right at me, with the passenger door open and slapping against the brush on the side of the ditch. Right before he got to me, the car jumped out of gear and the engine still wide open. When the dust cleared I could see feet kicking out of the open passenger door and then could see that a man behind the wheel had his right arm around the neck of a woman in the passenger seat.

He was punching her in the face with his left fist repeatedly. I was shocked...was definitely not what i was expecting. Then the guy reaches over and starts biting on the woman's face...chewing on it. At this point, I got the idea that SOMETHING wasn't right here! I ran back to my car and got my gun from console and walked back. Somehow the woman had broken free and gotten out and was moving behind the car. The man jumped out and tackled her and landed on her and started beating her again. I yelled and the guy looked at me and the woman kneed him in the family jewels. He yelled and rolled and she jumped up and ran to me and got behind me. The man then got up and started towards us.

I backed up slowly and was telling him calmly to just back up. WRONG move! He kept coming. I raised my gun so that he could see it and he kept coming. By this time, I was backed up into the edge of traffic. I raised the gun and pointed it right at the base of his neck. He was just a few feet away. I started forcefully telling him to stop or he was going to get shot. I moved my finger to the trigger and had taken up the slack on the trigger safety, when he finally stopped. I was in the process of pulling the trigger when he stopped. This guy had NO idea how close he came to a .40 red dot hollow point!

Long story, short...the guy had taken the girl three days earlier and had been holding her against her will. The cops were looking for them. He had put her in the car that morning and told her he was taking her to the country to kill her and dump her body and SHE pulled the steering wheel and sent the car into the ditch. The guy was hyped up on several drugs...including that bath salt junk! The guy is in jail now!

Again...even without pulling the trigger, I didn't sleep for 2 nights. And again, I'm glad I didn't pull the trigger.


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## Fishin' Trip (Dec 16, 2010)

with all that has gone on I've decided time to get my chl. I've owned guns for years but never felt the need to carry until more recently. maybe my 2 year old has something to do with it.

anyways, my sis is an attorney. she and all her attorney friends have offered me one piece of advice on the subject...

if you do decide to pull the trigger, make sure when it's all said and done there is only one side of the story for the judge/jury to hear.

I think the example earlier of the guy who got sued by the kid as a civil case is a perfect example of why this is good advice. kid and mama can get up there and claim he's a good kid and wouldn't have really hurt anyone. and all it takes is a MAJORITY of jurors to award them a win. 

if the perp isn't there to tell their story it makes it much harder for their attorney


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## lost-in-salt (Aug 12, 2005)

HydraSports said:


> IMO, this is a very unique situation and why I chose to start the thread. Somebody breaks in the house, try's to jack your car, mug you at one of the gas station scenarios, no question almost to a man CHL holders will shoot with no regret or hesitation. This scenario requires a more detailed decision to be made and the timeframe to do it is not so urgent because IMO, the true and eminent danger is lower or non existent, but the law allows latitude for the decision to shoot. Would you shoot?
> Edit: Jim (tortuga) hit the nail on the head above.


I would not hesitate to shoot. I am a CHL holder and a former law enforcement officer. I had to make my decisions of when it would be worth it to take someones life in these situations 17 years ago. My life has changed a lot since then and I often re-evaluate scenarios like this and my decisions have stayed the same. A scroat is a scroat and almost never changes. I would not want to deal with the situation of letting a violent criminal go who could later murderer a child's mother or father later down the road.

However, just as I will protect myself physically I also protect myself financially as much as I can in case I ever do have to use deadly force on another. I pay yearly for pre-paid legal assistance with a company that specializes in defending CHL holders.


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## letsgofishbro (Feb 8, 2012)

Just saw this guys pic on the news commercial.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

I like all the folks on here firing warning shots, and aiming for legs and radiators and ****.

Man, I have a hard enough time concealing my weapon... yall must have it really tough!! Hiding all those extra mags!!!

I mean, surely, if you are wasting ammo on shots not aimed at protecting your life, you are carrying extra mags to use when you realize... Oh ****, I just fired 3 times and this dude is pulling his own gun.... now he has a fully loaded weapon and I have a half empty one! Uh Oh!!!

Warning, leg and radiator shots are for the movie screen folks.


That being said, I probably wouldn't fire.... although I would be fully justified if I did.


I started using ATMs inside of convenience stores now if I have to. Those little ATM rooms freak me out because you dont have an exit and its not abnormal for a second person to walk up, even if they are totally innocent. People dont think about walking up behind you like they should.

What sucks about that particular situation is the robber doesnt really meet the stereotype for a "robber." Hes pretty clean cut and normal looking.... Plus, its in broad daylight and based on the background, thats basically downtown Liberty with the police station right around the corner! YIKES!

I would venture to bet that the victim didnt know WHAT kind of weapon the robber had.... in that position, it could have just as easily been a handgun and the victim would have never known the difference.


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

sfn01 said:


> Since a couple of you asked me to write second story...here it is.
> 
> I was on Hwy 146 on a Sunday afternoon and saw a car about 1/4 mile in front of me just make a quick turn right into the ditch. By the time i got stopped to see if i could help, I was about 100 yards in front of the car which was pointed nose down in a very wide ditch about 3 feet deep. I was walking a few steps toward the car when the engine revved up and the guy rocked back then down into the bottom of the ditch...The guy turned and headed right up the ditch with throttle wide open right at me, with the passenger door open and slapping against the brush on the side of the ditch. Right before he got to me, the car jumped out of gear and the engine still wide open. When the dust cleared I could see feet kicking out of the open passenger door and then could see that a man behind the wheel had his right arm around the neck of a woman in the passenger seat.
> 
> ...


just think of all the tax payer money you could have saved us.


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> I like all the folks on here firing warning shots, and aiming for legs and radiators and ****.
> 
> Man, I have a hard enough time concealing my weapon... yall must have it really tough!! Hiding all those extra mags!!!
> 
> ...


I carry semi auto, going to have 10- 15 rounds, depending on what day you catch me. 3 rounds is just a good start. Sounds like you need to upgrade your carry weapon.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Jolly Roger said:


> I carry semi auto, going to have 10- 15 rounds, depending on what day you catch me. 3 rounds is just a good start. Sounds like you need to upgrade your carry weapon.


I do as well, but I **** sure aint gonna waste ammo that could be necessary for saving my life in a gun fight just to scare somebody or play Annie Oakley...

You aren't fearful of losing your life if you are purposely missing your target.... which defeats the whole purpose of drawing, much less discharging your weapon in the first place.


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## ATX 4x4 (Jun 25, 2011)

justinsfa said:


> I like all the folks on here firing warning shots, and aiming for legs and radiators and ****.


Yep...Not sure I've ever seen a paper target with legs either. I'm willing to bet that the lack of fine motor skills in a crisis situation that most would likely experience in incidents similar to the above mentioned scenarios would probably prevent them from actually being accurate enough to connect a piece of lead with a leg.

Keep in mind to be justified in using deadly force one must not only be able to show imminent jeopardy but also _preclusion_.


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> I do as well, but I **** sure aint gonna waste ammo that could be necessary for saving my life in a gun fight just to threaten somebody or play Annie Oakley...
> 
> You aren't fearful of losing your life if you are purposely missing your target.... which defeats the whole purpose of drawing, much less discharging your weapon in the first place.


I can promise you if some guy just robbed me, and was driving by and I had a good shot. I would put a round or two in his radiator or tires. Call it want you want, but that is not purposely missing my target. Just slowing them down for the cops. If I wanted to kill him, should have shot him in the back.

Argument could go the other way. His buddy could have a scatter gun in the get away car, you shoot the guy in the back and his buddy opens up on you with 00 buckshot. There are a millions different what if's.s


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## KEN KERLEY (Nov 13, 2006)

First of all, I wouldn't wait until he's 20' away. As soon as he was a safe distance away, I would draw down on him, tell him to put my money on the ground and back away. Then, if he wants to take a knife to a gun fight, his ash is history.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Jolly Roger said:


> I can promise you if some guy just robbed me, and was driving by and I had a good shot. I would put a round or two in his radiator or tires. Call it want you want, but that is not purposely missing my target. Just slowing them down for the cops. If I wanted to kill him, should have shot him in the back.
> 
> Argument could go the other way. His buddy could have a scatter gun in the get away car, you shoot the guy in the back and his buddy opens up on you with 00 buckshot. There are a millions different what if's.s


Theres your dodge truck driving by.... Do tell how you plan to make a radiator shot??










Only radiator shot would be you standing in front of it.... which now makes you prone to getting run over.

How bout those tires??? Whats that, a 4" target??? 8 if you aim top or bottom??? Not to mention the vehicle will be moving...

For reference, the 9 ring on a B27 target is less than 8" wide....










Seems like a pretty big risk to be slinging lead at targets substantially smaller than what it would take to put him down in the first place.... the chances of you connecting are slim to none with no extensive arms training and at a range over 3 yards.


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## MrOutdoors (Dec 17, 2009)

Dead men say nothing, or dont hire people to sue you. Yes his family could. But ive had lots of things stolen from me. And im sick of it. So let this pic say the rest.


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## txjoker (Jun 21, 2005)

Troll of the year by Ricardo Smith right there. IJ would have handed over the $400 just like everyone else would have. Either that or run the risk of the wife and kids coming to ICU due to the fact that the knife severed both kidneys and possibly cutting your spinal cord in half.



InfamousJ said:


> I would have shot him in his kneecap so the police could come arrest him.





InfamousJ said:


> as soon as someone held a knife to me, my life is in danger of being extinguished.... that said, my mind is on survival, walking away or not, any open chance to defend myself would be taken, that is on my mind and the threat will be handled as any threat would be handled, there is no resetting of the survival clock...
> 
> say you are in a store with a gunman, and he comes up pointing a gun saying for you to shut up or he is going to kill you, then turns and walks away to keep robbing the store clerk, are you going to shoot him? He walked away from you, he won't be shooting YOU. Do you let him rob and walk out since he won't be shooting at you?


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## RobaloSunrise (Jun 10, 2011)

I'd have shot him, his dog, the cat taking a dump in the azaleas, a beaver, and just for good measure I would have double taped a Buick. That's how I roll. Street! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Just as much risk as shooting someone in self defense. Truck is a large backstop, people not so much.

It is obvious we see things different on this subject. I am cool with that but seems you have something to prove. Go for it. Only saying what I would do. Do not really care what you think about it.



justinsfa said:


> Seems like a pretty big risk to be slinging lead at targets substantially smaller than what it would take to put him down in the first place.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Jolly Roger said:


> Just as much risk as shooting someone in self defense. Truck is a large backstop, people not so much.
> 
> It is obvious we see things different on this subject. I am cool with that but seems you have something to prove. Go for it. Only telling you what I would do. Do not really care what you think about it.


I have nothing to prove at all... other than I often read posts by folks on here that have these long, drawn out ideas about pulling off shots that are already difficult in a controlled setting and require expert marksmanship....

Now add in adrenaline, movement on both your part and the thug, and an uncertain backdrop... the is far from a range setting... and your aim is going to show it.

I just dont see how someone can say they are in fear of losing their life, then in turn take aim at a radiator or a tire or a leg or into the air. Makes zero sense and I may be wrong, but if you purposedly missed, you could be in for some legal trouble.... because firing warning shots is not covered by any Stand Your Ground law. Crazy, but a possibility.

If you arent going to neutralize the threat, dont discharge the firearm. And there is NOTHING wrong with that decision.

I mean, if yall were standing in a hotel, would you shoot up at the chandaleur hanging from the ceiling so it falls on top of him? lol


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> I just dont see how someone can say they are in fear of losing their life, then in turn take aim at a radiator or a tire or a leg or into the air. Makes zero sense.


Not going to be in fear of losing my life when they are tring to get away. You seemed to be confused. Going to shoot the radiator/tire to slow them for the cops and good chance out of pure anger.Thought I said that already.

If my weapon is drawn, and I am in fear of my life. Going to shot to kill.


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

is it time for popcorn?


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

txjoker said:


> Troll of the year by Ricardo Smith right there. IJ would have handed over the $400 just like everyone else would have. Either that or run the risk of the wife and kids coming to ICU due to the fact that the knife severed both kidneys and possibly cutting your spinal cord in half.


That's funny if you think I am Ricardo but anyways... que? his cousin did not have a kidney or spinal cord severed? so obviously he went along with the robbery, gave the money, asked to spare his life whatever it takes to get away, watched the man walk away... at that point, he's a dead man walking.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Jolly Roger said:


> Not going to be in fear of losing my life when they are tring to get away. You seemed to be confused. Going to shoot the radiator/tire to slow them for the cops and good chance out of pure anger.
> 
> Thought I said that already.


You have been watching too many movies.


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## Lebber32 (Aug 8, 2010)

Only way I would is if I was able to get my weapon before he robbed me and was leaving...if he gets me for $400 and is leaving I can live with that and u don't have to kill the SOB


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

justinsfa said:


> You have been watching too many movies.


It is sad you can not hit a truck with your gun.


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## Capt. Sandbar (Jun 12, 2004)

He is not going to leave. The next time it may be my kid or wife, and I am not going to let him pull a knife on them.


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## Boatflounder (Mar 12, 2007)

didnt read all responses but my take is this is why I dont carry, am usually the biggest person around and thus the least likely to be targetted, but would definitely shoot some punk over 400 dollars.

and remember it s not me deciding the 400 is worth his life, he is the one that made that decision!!!!!!


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## Holmes (Nov 20, 2011)

> > Several years ago I was leaving work at midnight after working late in downtown Houston. There were people everywhere. I got to my car and opened the trunk to put my weapon in. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw two young punks running toward me. One had a knife in his hand, at about 5 feet I shot twice.
> > There were probably 30-40 witnesses and police working security at a club across the street were there in less than a minute. I was the one treated like a criminal. Put into the back of the police car for about an hour and a half. My weapon taken.
> > 18 monhs later I get a letter stating that I am being sued by the punk that I shot. Another 2 years pass and I finally get a court date. Punk has a doctor to go to court with him. Dr says that punk has internal injuries and probably will not live to the age of 25. Punk's mama boo-hoos and falls to the floor. I lose and am ordered to pay the punk $325,000.
> > Then last summer I get a letter from an attorney saying that he represents the punk. The punk is now in TDC for 20 years. Attorney tells me that the punk is willing to work with me and is asking that I put $200 a month in his commissary account so that he will have some spending money. I sent the punk a money order for $1.00 and that will be the last he will ever get from me.


Thanks for sharing. Couple questions. Answer as many as you care to:
1. Who was your attorney?
2. Who was the opposing attorney?
3. Why do you think the attackers singled you out in a crowd of people? 
4. Was the punk not prosecuted for the assault? Did you work with the DA to get him prosecuted?
5. Did you lawyer up when you shot him? 
6. What could you have done to better insulate yourself from civil suit?
7. Do you expect an attorney or relative to come after you for the award or will your estate be liable upon your death?


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## DickyT (Jan 17, 2012)

Holmes said:


> Thanks for sharing. Couple questions. Answer as many as you care to:
> 1. Who was your attorney?
> 2. Who was the opposing attorney?
> 3. Why do you think the attackers singled you out in a crowd of people?
> ...


1) Joe Roach
2) Edwin Shaw? I believe was his name.
3) Possibly thought that I was carrying money leaving a business at night?
4) Both punks were prosecuted. Both received probation.
5) No, I was no-billed by the Harris County Grand Jury so at that time, I saw no need for an atty. But I was told by the District Attorney to not be surprised if a Civil case was filed.
6) ? ? ?
7) I was told that in Harris County that 90% of the time a jury will award a criminal something. I do not know what else an attorney or relatives could expect. There is a judgement for $325,000 against me and a lien on my house. I have about $8,000 in personal belongings. I have had 2 strokes and a heart attack in the last 4 years and am living on SSI disability. I was told that when and if I can come up with atty fees, that I can file for bankrupcy and that will end the judgement.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

boomgoon said:


> I wouldn't let someone get that close to me at an atm. He'd better know how to throw that knife.


This!

If I had to go to an enclosed ATM in a bank and someone else stepped in there, I would face them and ask them to wait outside until I was finished with my transaction. I'm not exposing my back waiting on cash anytime. I would much rather crush one in my truck at a drive-up.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

InfamousJ said:


> as soon as someone held a knife to me, my life is in danger of being extinguished.... that said, my mind is on survival, walking away or not, any open chance to defend myself would be taken, that is on my mind and the threat will be handled as any threat would be handled, there is no resetting of the survival clock...
> 
> say you are in a store with a gunman, and he comes up pointing a gun saying for you to shut up or he is going to kill you, then turns and walks away to keep robbing the store clerk, are you going to shoot him? He walked away from you, he won't be shooting YOU. Do you let him rob and walk out since he won't be shooting at you?


You could just bore him to death talking about how "Awesome" your Do-It-All Desperado almost Flats, almost Offshore boat is. He would run after the first few minutes. If you showed him a picture, he would run away immediately, knowing you are a crazy mofo for buying it! :slimer:


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## Holmes (Nov 20, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmes 
Thanks for sharing. Couple questions. Answer as many as you care to:
1. Who was your attorney?
2. Who was the opposing attorney?
3. Why do you think the attackers singled you out in a crowd of people? 
4. Was the punk not prosecuted for the assault? Did you work with the DA to get him prosecuted?
5. Did you lawyer up when you shot him? 
6. What could you have done to better insulate yourself from civil suit?
7. Do you expect an attorney or relative to come after you for the award or will your estate be liable upon your death?


> 1) Joe Roach
> 2) Edwin Shaw? I believe was his name.
> 3) Possibly thought that I was carrying money leaving a business at night?
> 4) Both punks were prosecuted. Both received probation.
> ...


Sorry to hear that brother. That is the worst part of this thread and I'm really surprised no one else commented on it. Clearly a raw deal. I hope that your health issues are unrelated and that they get better. Best wishes to you.


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## txjoker (Jun 21, 2005)

Whatever you say, IJ! I'm sure things would've turned out differently had you been in that Colorado theater, too. 



InfamousJ said:


> That's funny if you think I am Ricardo but anyways... que? his cousin did not have a kidney or spinal cord severed? so obviously he went along with the robbery, gave the money, asked to spare his life whatever it takes to get away, watched the man walk away... at that point, he's a dead man walking.


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## iridered2003 (Dec 12, 2005)

speckle-catcher said:


> is it time for popcorn?


looks like we gonna need it bro


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

If I don't kill him, he will do it again and possibly stab someone in the future. Yeah, I could end it right there.


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## redduck (Jul 26, 2006)

I don't know for sure what I would do. But I do like that line in the western with Tom Seleck where the bad guys beat him and leave him to die in the desert. The bad guys take his rifle and start to leave and he barely says "you forgot the gold (in his pocket)". The bad guy turns and comes back and Tom kills him with a knife then takes his rifle back and shoots the other bad guy riding off in a wagon.


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## castaway300 (Oct 6, 2007)

InfamousJ said:


> I would have shot him in his kneecap so the police could come arrest him.


If that ever happened to me, i hope i would have the internal fortitude to double tap two to the chest....


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Jolly Roger said:


> It is sad you can not hit a truck with your gun.


Lemme guess, you are going to shoot at the gas tank this time and make it blow up...

Lights, Camera, Action!!!!

A truck is covered by a metal shell.... how effective is a 9mm or 40 cal round going to be at disabling a vehicle?

Its not going to be... a shot to the door wont disable a vehicle.... a shot to any quarterpanel wont disable the vehicle.... It will leave a hole, the size of your index finger in it and nothing more.

Shoot to put the threat down or dont shoot at all. Its pretty simple because its the only move that would be effective. If you want to fire at the assailant driving the vehicle, go for it! But just shooting at the car itself is a waste of time.


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## poppadawg (Aug 10, 2007)

Anybody else get the feeling there are a lot jr high mentalities on here that sit around and fantasize in a very perverse way about shooting the bad guy?


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## Tortuga (May 21, 2004)

poppadawg said:


> Anybody else get the feeling there are a lot jr high mentalities on here that sit around and fantasize in a very perverse way about shooting the bad guy?


:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:...... Ya reckon' ?????.....:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

green inbound, Dawg !!!!


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## iridered2003 (Dec 12, 2005)

justinsfa said:


> Lemme guess, you are going to shoot at the gas tank this time and make it blow up...
> 
> Lights, Camera, Action!!!!
> 
> ...


so, you dont think my FN 57 would stop ones car? your out of your mind


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## TxFig (May 4, 2006)

InfamousJ said:


> I would have shot him in his kneecap so the police could come arrest him.


Epic Fail. :headknock

If you shoot, you shoot to kill. There is no such thing as warning shots or attempts to wound.

Corollary to this is that you continue shooting until the threat is *completely* eliminated (ie. they're not moving anymore).



HydraSports said:


> would you pull your concealed weapon and shoot him over the $400????????


Your line of thinking is BADLY misplaced. The amount is COMPLETELY irrelevant. It could be $1 or it could be $100,000.

The salient issue - the only issue that matters - is that a person committed an armed robbery.

That means the question you have to answer is:
Are you willing to shoot (to kill) a person who just committed the 3rd worse felony possible in order to prevent them from fleeing the scene, virtually guaranteeing that they'll commit that same crime (or worse) again?

If you answer "no", you might as well not carry at all.

My answer is "yes, I would shoot him".


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## donf (Aug 8, 2005)

I cannot imagine a perp who would not understand, high on drugs or not, the ramifications of a .45 caliber handgun pointed between his eyes. You see, CHL or not, we are not trying to kill people, we are trying to make them stop what they are doing. Sometimes that does require pulling the trigger, sometimes it does not. You do not HAVE to shoot somebody when you pull your gun. If the perp drops the weapon, pees himself, and ceases hostilities, the threat no longer exists. 
If you are caught off guard, and you are robbed of 400 bucks, you have, I believe, a justifiable shoot in the back if you want. Your continued freedom under that scenario may be at the whim of a local DA and grand jury, as you were no longer in grave danger as the perp walked away. 
As a CHL holder, I'm trying all day to not be put in positions where I might have to shoot someone, even though the law provides me certain protection if I have to. 

This thread is a most healthy discussion. If you hold the power of life and death, we must run through these defensive scenarios in our minds over and over. But first and foremost must be the protection of yourself and your loved ones. There are two threats to that freedom, one from the perp, and one, after the fact , from the government .


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## Pier Pressure (Aug 30, 2009)

iridered2003 said:


> so, you dont think my FN 57 would stop ones car? your out of your mind


Is it loaded or unloaded? Nice piece by the way.

All of you that say wound the guy in the leg, ha are going to get sued. 
At best you could hope for is when the guy walks off, you pull your gun and demand the money back at gun point, hoping he would charge you with the knife drawn for justification of shooting him. 
But also hoping he will just give you your money back. Holding him for the cops isnt going to happen to pos guy like this. He will take off knowing there is a greater chance you wont shoot him in the back running away.

Im sure each of us has had a friend that owes us 400 or more right now that they wont pay back for their reason. (I have)
Who's out shooting them over that money??


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## iridered2003 (Dec 12, 2005)

Pier Pressure said:


> Is it loaded or unloaded? Nice piece by the way.


i've never in my life owned a unload gun,THANK YOU


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

iridered2003 said:


> so, you dont think my FN 57 would stop ones car? your out of your mind


Why use the gun? Just leave it in yer purse and throw THAT at 'em:slimer:


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## Pier Pressure (Aug 30, 2009)

iridered2003 said:


> i've never in my life owned a unload gun,THANK YOU


Ok I didnt know if it was loaded or you were going to throw it at him.

I like that quote.

Hey can I borrow 4 bills. Ill pay you back......


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## specks&ducks (Nov 9, 2010)

I don't think I would shoot him, not over $400. That stuff can haunt you. I would however make him think I was about to blow his nuts off and probably beat the life out of him and then wait for the cops.


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## iridered2003 (Dec 12, 2005)

spurgersalty said:


> Why use the gun? Just leave it in yer purse and throw THAT at 'em:slimer:


dont want to mess up such a beautiful gun now , do we?


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## SharkBait >*)\\\><( (May 16, 2012)

one thing about true bad guys is if you pull a gun on them they are not going to go to the cops about it..
personally i would give the guy something he would remember for the rest of his life, a full sized 1911 to the face may prompt him to find a new career path...


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

iridered2003 said:


> dont want to mess up such a beautiful gun now , do we?



:cheers:


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## Fish&Chips (Jan 27, 2012)

Very good thread HydraSports. There are a wide range of answers - some good and some not so good. I agree with MC, taking a life is no small thing. And like somebody else said, nobody really knows what they would do until they are in that situation. I believe shooting should be a last resort.


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## redspeck (Jul 3, 2012)

I would ask him for my money back, at gun point. Now it is up to him if he wants to get shot or not. and i would make sure he would not be leaving in his car!


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## Gilbert (May 25, 2004)

SharkBait >*)\\\><( said:


> one thing about true bad guys is if you pull a gun on them they are not going to go to the cops about it..
> personally *i would give the guy something he would remember for the rest of his life, a full sized 1911 to the face may prompt him to find a new career path...*


you better have the nuts to pull the trigger if you do that. His next path should be to the morgue.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

Gilbert said:


> you better have the nuts to pull the trigger if you do that. His next path should be to the morgue.


not to mention he already has a knife to your back


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## waterspout (May 21, 2004)

Trouthunter said:


> He wouldn't leave with my money or his knife.
> 
> TH


that's because the blade wouldn't be long enough!


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## Flat Trout (Aug 2, 2011)

I won't get into the shoot/don't shoot aspect. I retired with 27 years as a Fed LEO (USBP/Treasury Spec. Agent) and for 20 of those years a firearms instructor. We were taught and did teach this: You do not shoot to kill, you shoot to stop the perp from doing whatever it was that caused you to shoot in the first place. That being said, we always shot for center mass on the B 27 target.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

iridered2003 said:


> so, you dont think my FN 57 would stop ones car? your out of your mind


You tell me... would you stand in front of a vehicle doing 50 mph per hour right at you and trust your FN to keep you from dying?

Talk about out of someones mind.... haha

Indeed a sweet firearm though... I put my hands on one when it first came out before they reached the civilian market. I was skeptical at that time if they would make it due to their lack of ammo availability at the common outlets. Its an interesting little round, thats for sure.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

*Your opinion*



TxFig said:


> Your line of thinking is BADLY misplaced. The amount is COMPLETELY irrelevant. It could be $1 or it could be $100,000.
> 
> The salient issue - the only issue that matters - is that a person committed an armed robbery.
> 
> ...


Nah, everything is relevant and the amount of money is also. Just your opinion that it is irrelevant.

I carry to protect myself from eminent danger and to protect my health and happiness, not to play LEO or to decide if he just committed the 3rd.........or was it the 5th worse crime possible. Not my job. I don't want to lay awake all night worrying about being sued or stressing over killing a guy, not my idea of happiness. I also don't want to give everything I have worked for all my life to some lawyer to defend me against shooting this POS and his POS family.

Would I try to detain him, certainly. Would I shoot him if he turned around and charged me with the knife, certainly. Would I shoot him in the back if he was dragging my kid away as a hostage, certainly. Would I shoot him in the back while he is walking away with just my money and I was unharmed, probably not.

I guess the way I see it is that the money is the only damage done, maybe I am wrong about stopping him from doing crimes in the future, and I have been and will continue to think about that and come to a decision as to what I would do. I know that if he had just killed someone and was walking away, my attitude would be much different.


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## REEL CRAZY (Dec 21, 2005)

redspeck said:


> I would ask him for my money back, at gun point. Now it is up to him if he wants to get shot or not. and i would make sure he would not be leaving in his car!


What if - you are holding him at gun point, yelling at the guy, demanding your money and an off duty cop smokes your ***?


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## TxFig (May 4, 2006)

HydraSports said:


> Nah, everything is relevant and the amount of money is also. Just your opinion that it is irrelevant.


Your decision will get someone else - an innocent someone else - killed.

Live with THAT on your conscious.


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## Profish00 (May 21, 2004)

Bottom line is he is still out there and will strike again, I hope he finds a cooperative victim and keeps a clean knife.


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## fish'nchipper (Feb 8, 2006)

DickyT said:


> 1) Joe Roach
> 2) Edwin Shaw? I believe was his name.
> 3) Possibly thought that I was carrying money leaving a business at night?
> 4) Both punks were prosecuted. Both received probation.
> ...


You got a raw deal for sure. You shouldn't have a lien on your home (assuming it is your homestead) for a personal liability verdict. My law firm does bankruptcy work and depending on some of the facts at issue, I'd be willing to do this pro bono for you. 
Some judgments are not dischargeable even in bankruptcy, so PM me with your contact information and we'll talk.

To answer the original question though, I don't have a CHL, but normally if they are willing to use a deadly weapon against you now, statistically, most will graduate up and eventually truly harm or kill someone. If the guy was back-turned and truly walking away and had no movements toward coming back, I'd let him go. If you have good homeowners insurance, it would cover you for the theft. The bank might even put it back in your account because the theft occurred on their property and/or at their machine. Now, if the guy so much as made any effort to come back at me, he'd get some lead in the torso.

For anyone else interested, especially if you carry a CHL, if you have good homeowner's insurance and an umbrella policy ($1M can be as little at $200 per year) your defense and any verdict would be handled/satisfied by them. Peace of mind for an additional $200/year beats the heck out of a $300K judgment.

DickyT, PM me and we'll see what I can do to help you out.


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## iridered2003 (Dec 12, 2005)

justinsfa said:


> You tell me... would you stand in front of a vehicle doing 50 mph per hour right at you and trust your FN to keep you from dying?
> 
> Talk about out of someones mind.... haha
> 
> Indeed a sweet firearm though... I put my hands on one when it first came out before they reached the civilian market. I was skeptical at that time if they would make it due to their lack of ammo availability at the common outlets. Its an interesting little round, thats for sure.


with 21 rounds, i really dont matter where you stand or hit a car with a 57, its gonna stop. and NO, i would never stand in front of a car going 50mph, mite as well go play on the freeway dummy.:rotfl:


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## BigNate523 (May 19, 2010)

Gilbert said:


> you better have the nuts to pull the trigger if you do that. His next path should be to the morgue.


dont know if you caught his thread that got deleted, but he did mention he had to take a guys life so i say he probably has the nutz to do it


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

fish'nchipper said:


> For anyone else interested, especially if you carry a CHL, if you have good homeowner's insurance and an umbrella policy ($1M can be as little at $200 per year) your defense and any verdict would be handled/satisfied by them. Peace of mind for an additional $200/year beats the heck out of a $300K judgment.


Can you expound on the coverage from home owners or an umbrella? What would you claim? This is a new one to me. Thanks.


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## fish1kemah (Feb 26, 2009)

*Would you shoot*

I have read lots of both good and bad just like everyone else here on this thread has.
But my opinion is talk to any LEO, DA and anyone else involved in law enforcement and they will gladly tell you the tide of crime is coming our way. It's either take a stand or roll over and let it consume us. I have always had a deep belief that good will overcome evil but now sometimes I wonder only to see that the bad is breeding like rats faster than the good.
I have lost a close family member to robbery and murder. I watched it destroy a whole family in the process of it too. 
Take this as you may Ladies and Gentlemen, take a stand, don't be a victim although you may still be a victim after the trigger is pulled as we have read earlier. But either way, walk away alive and still be breathing, once the bad guy has you in his sights it's all down hill for you unless YOU take control of the situation. Our forefathers and many many others have given the ultimate sacrifice to keep us free and alive. Stand you ground !.

F1K


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## Gilbert (May 25, 2004)

BigNate523 said:


> dont know if you caught his thread that got deleted, but he did mention he had to take a guys life so i say he probably has the nutz to do it


wasn't just talking about him having the nuts to pull the trigger. that goes for anybody that pulls a gun out on someone. don't point a gun in someone's face if you aren't going to shoot.


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

iridered2003 said:


> with 21 rounds, i really dont matter where you stand or hit a car with a 57, its gonna stop. and NO, i would never stand in front of a car going 50mph, mite as well go play on the freeway dummy.:rotfl:


21 rounds in a front quarter panel, rear quarter panel or door is not going to stop a car... Hate to burst your bubble. Its just metal... its going to put a hole in it the size of your pinkie and thats pretty much it. It might whistle while going down the street if you hit the right speed I guess... lol

All jokes aside, you really dont think your handgun is going to disable a car do you?


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## iridered2003 (Dec 12, 2005)

justinsfa said:


> 21 rounds in a front quarter panel, rear quarter panel or door is not going to stop a car... Hate to burst your bubble. Its just metal... its going to put a hole in it the size of your pinkie and thats pretty much it. It might whistle while going down the street if you hit the right speed I guess... lol
> 
> All jokes aside, you really dont think your handgun is going to disable a car do you?


21 into the front anywhere gonna stop it. think what you want. i guess you know nothing about the 57? bring your car over here and let me unleash the beast and tell me different


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

iridered2003 said:


> 21 into the front anywhere gonna stop it. think what you want. i guess you know nothing about the 57? bring your car over here and let me unleash the beast and tell me different


He drives a Tundra, gonna take a 600 Nitro express to stop that


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

iridered2003 said:


> 21 into the front anywhere gonna stop it. think what you want. i guess you know nothing about the 57? bring your car over here and let me unleash the beast and tell me different


I know plenty about the round.

But the round does have limitations.

If you trust your life to a projectile penetrating a two layers of metal, then have enough force to penetrate through yet another layer of even heavier housing, then so be it.

Smart? Nope, but Ive read plenty of your posts to know that you have always lacked in that department.


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## iridered2003 (Dec 12, 2005)

justinsfa said:


> I know plenty about the round.
> 
> But the round does have limitations.
> 
> ...


between the electronics,hoses,belts the rounds will hit, its gonna stop. as for smarts, yea, im as dumb as you


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## Gilbert (May 25, 2004)

its fixing to get real up in here now


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## Mad Mike (Dec 28, 2005)

Not sure what I would do in that situation. Extremely tough call.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Man some of you need to not carry a weapon of any kind; you'll get it taken away from you and be killed with it and the perp will use it on someone else later on.

To shoot or not to shoot? If you're held up at gun or knife point you don't know if the person with the weapon is going to leave you as a living witness or not. You have no idea if he's going to kill you so you have to believe in your mind that he is.

Now I would have been in a bad position judging by the pictures of the armed robbery in the thread that started all of this. The angle of the knife blade is about where the grip on my carry pistol would be so the guy would have found the handgun when he pressed the knife against me. I would not let him get my weapon from me so defense and attack would have been my only option had I let it get that far. 

You have to be aware of your surroundings. You might get lax when walking across a parking lot but buddy an ATM screams COME ROB ME and that guy would not have gotten behind me like that.

Some of you are questioning if $400 bucks is worth a man's life. In my opinion his life is worth the price of the bullet if he threatened my life for that $400 bucks and I don't care if his kids are sick or if he needs to pay his crack dealer. If he let you live instead of sliding that blade through your kidney that's his bad luck, turn around and shoot the SOB. 

This ain't the old west. There is no "code of the west" to not shoot someone in the back...it happens all the time with police and fleeing felons.

In any case if you get a chance to take a defensive handgun course do so. Learn situational awareness, learn how to get your weapon out fast; it has to be a reflex action and that only comes from practice. Learn to establish a personal space that is the number of feet away from you that you will allow an attacker to get to before you draw your weapon and kill him. 

Seriously folks some of you are a walking train wreck in what you say will or will not do with your concealed handgun and you could be a danger to yourself, and in the case of letting an armed robber escape to harm someone else because you can't handle shooting him, to others. 

When you carry that handgun you take on an awesome responsibility and if you are not going to use it as per the laws of our state then why have it on you? Keep it in the car or truck and you don't need a CHL for that any longer in Texas.

TH


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)

That's not a knife, *this *is a knife!


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## Pier Pressure (Aug 30, 2009)

iridered2003 said:


> between the electronics,hoses,belts the rounds will hit, its gonna stop. as for smarts, yea, im as dumb as you


You forgot tires and head shots. Yea you could stop it, if not the driver would swerve into the side of the road due to many factors.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Trouthunter said:


> When you carry that handgun you take on an awesome responsibility and if you are not going to use it as per the laws of our state then why have it on you? Keep it in the car or truck and you don't need a CHL for that any longer in Texas.
> 
> TH


I couldn't agree more, but I do disagree with the scope of my responsibilities. I never agreed to accept responsibility for the actions of a perp that I might not shoot. I never agreed that just because I carry that I will kill, I only agreed that I would accept the responsibility to be safe and to use my best judgement and to obey the laws. IMO, when the law gives me latitude to shoot or not, that is a personal decision, not one mandated by law or responsibility. I have NO responsibility to shoot, NONE WHATSOEVER. I can choose to simply walk away without recourse of any kind. A CHL does not make me a LEO nor did I accept the responsibility to be one, it does not make me John Wayne either, it is very simply a legal approval for me to carry a weapon on my person and the approval to use it as prescribed by law. The law never mandates that I MUST shoot.

So enough about what the CHL and the legal duties. What is my civic duty, what is my moral duty? All of those are good questions, maybe food for another thread.


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## fish'nchipper (Feb 8, 2006)

HydraSports said:


> Can you expound on the coverage from home owners or an umbrella? What would you claim? This is a new one to me. Thanks.


For sure the umbrella would cover it. Your home owners policy might (depending on the company too). If you have a cheapo Allstate/state Farm/etc. it may not, but some better ones have a personal liability endorsement in them.


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## SharkBait >*)\\\><( (May 16, 2012)

Gary said:


> That's not a knife, *this *is a knife!


thats not a knife, this is a knife


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## Gary (May 21, 2004)




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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

iridered2003 said:


> between the electronics,hoses,belts the rounds will hit, its gonna stop. as for smarts, yea, im as dumb as you


OK... our very own 2cool super handgun sniper stops the perps car with 21 magic rounds.... now what? You have a desperate guy with a knife that gets out of his swiss cheese car... takes your empty gun from you....stabs you... takes YOUR car... then stops at McDonalds right there on 90 and spends your 400 bucks on chicken nuggets.


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

I am not tring to stop them, just slowing them down for the cops. Know I have said that at least three times.

Over the years of shooting junk cars for fun. Never had one blow up that we did not rig to. But there is always tomorrow.  One small hole in the tire and or radiator will stop them a short piece down the road. Will I hit my mark every time, maybe, maybe not. Not the point, like I said from the start. If giving the shot, I would take it to there radiator or tires.

Looking at the pics, and going over it in my head. The guy has the drop on me, knife in my side. In my younger years I tried to take a knife from a guy in a fight, did not go to well. So I would give him the money, a make no fuss about it. BUT once he turned to leave I would have been on his heels drawn. I would not shot him in the back, just not in my nature. If he turned and came toward me, yes I would kill him. But if he kept going to his vehicle then I would stop a safe shooting distance from his vehicle and give him a warning to stop. Once he did not stop depending on the angle of the vehicle would take the shot to the front grill or to the rear tire. At the same time I would be getting a description of what he was wearing and the cars tag numbers.

Would it happen exactly like this, maybe maybe not. If he was parked a long ways off, then he would be safe as my fatass would run out of breath. Would I take a moving shot at the vehicle, if the angles were good then yes. I know myself better then most people. I can promise you I would take the shot into there vehicle to slow down there escape. Agree disagree, I do not care. But to make it out like it is hard to shot a car in the grill, or in the tire? All I got to say to that is you must be a lousy shot.



justinsfa said:


> Lemme guess, you are going to shoot at the gas tank this time and make it blow up...
> 
> Lights, Camera, Action!!!!
> 
> ...


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## finkikin (Jul 8, 2011)

justinsfa said:


> OK... our very own 2cool super handgun sniper stops the perps car with 21 magic rounds.... now what? You have a desperate guy with a knife that gets out of his swiss cheese car... takes your empty gun from you....stabs you... takes YOUR car... *then stops at McDonalds right there on 90 and spends your 400 bucks on chicken nuggets.*


Thats alot of **** nuggets...:bounce:


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

spurgersalty said:


> He drives a Tundra, gonna take a 600 Nitro express to stop that


Not if I activate my forcefield...

It looks like this, but in green.


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## iridered2003 (Dec 12, 2005)

justinsfa said:


> OK... our very own 2cool super handgun sniper stops the perps car with 21 magic rounds.... now what? You have a desperate guy with a knife that gets out of his swiss cheese car... takes your empty gun from you....stabs you... takes YOUR car... then stops at McDonalds right there on 90 and spends your 400 bucks on chicken nuggets.


i like chicken nuggets to


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## justinsfa (Mar 28, 2009)

Jolly Roger said:


> I am not tring to stop them, just slowing them down for the cops. Know I have said that at least three times.
> 
> Over the years of shooting junk cars for fun. Never had one blow up that we did not rig to. But there is always tomorrow.  One small hole in the tire and or radiator will stop them a short piece down the road. Will I hit my mark every time, maybe, maybe not. Not the point, like I said from the start. If giving the shot, I would take it to there radiator or tires.
> 
> ...


Oh we agree on a ton of levels.... no way you could get a drop on a guy like in the pics.... the cards are heavily stacked against you... he has you from behind, with a weapon in your back... Totally agree with you. You are at his mercy.

But without putting yourself in front of the car, you cant hit the radiator... A car will beat a handgun any day of the week.

The tires are a 4" target.... a safe distance would be 15 yards... If you can hit the bullseye on a moving target at 15 paces under the stress of battle with a short barrelled side arm, then you have exceptional talent. Thats Special Ops kind of talent.

I just dont understand why you would bother aiming for tiny car parts.... if you feel you are justified to shoot him, aim for him.


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Most walk in ATMs I go to are at banks. You have to pull straight up to them. Grill of the car is looking right at you, all you would have to do is open the door and have a perfect shot. Not saying this is going to be the case all the time, just pointing out you do not have to be standing in front of a moving vehicle to put a shot into the radiator. You could be off to the side on a sidewalk, and the car is going by, the car could be backing out of a parking space, etc....... do not have to be in front of moving car to get a shot into the grill.

If that was the getaway car in the pic. Then all you have to do is open the door and you have a clear shot at the rear tire. If it is moving, then makes it harder but not impossible. Could I hit the rear tire from the door in the pic. Yes, could I hit it after a guy robbed me at knife point. Do not know, maybe maybe not. But I would take the shot if it was clear.



justinsfa said:


> Oh we agree on a ton of levels.... no way you could get a drop on a guy like in the pics.... the cards are heavily stacked against you... he has you from behind, with a weapon in your back... Totally agree with you. You are at his mercy.
> 
> But without putting yourself in front of the car, you cant hit the radiator... A car will beat a handgun any day of the week.
> 
> ...


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## troutslayer (Feb 7, 2006)

Ill say this.......Dont try to take my money.....

its mine...................

I have a gun............................

nuff said


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## chubri777 (Aug 11, 2005)

I don't know if I'd shoot but you never really know until you're put in that position. If there was an opening to pull my pistol, I'd get my money back, his knife, cell phone, wallet and whatever else he's willing to give up to stay alive.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

Haute Pursuit said:


> You could just bore him to death talking about how "Awesome" your Do-It-All Desperado almost Flats, almost Offshore boat is. He would run after the first few minutes. If you showed him a picture, he would run away immediately, knowing you are a crazy mofo for buying it! :slimer:


Shoalwater owners...

:slimer: :slimer: :slimer: :slimer:


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## chrigging (Aug 10, 2012)

chubri777 said:


> I don't know if I'd shoot but you never really know until you're put in that position. If there was an opening to pull my pistol, I'd get my money back, his knife, cell phone, wallet and whatever else he's willing to give up to stay alive.


I agree with you.:work:


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## Chase4556 (Aug 26, 2008)

Can't say for sure what I'd do. I was not in the situation. Its a knife, odds are I am not going to die, and I just need to put a couple feet between us. How the guy was holding the knife, I would have pressed my body into his right shoulder and rolled off the the right. Taken a few steps as I pulled my weapon, and probably just ordered him to drop the knife and get on the ground. I'd then call the cops and wait on them to arrive. If I have a gun and he has a knife.. the knife always looses at a gun fight after you have a little distance between you.

Granted, I've been in situations that have taught me to keep my cool and assess the situation. Different body position by that guy, and odds are I could be going to the hospital afterward if I made a move. How it was, I'd do as I said above and once I had my weapon I'd order him to the ground. He is either going to comply, run, or attack me. The latter of the 3 would end with me firing my weapon.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

how about a back kick up into his crotch? would that work?


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## lost-in-salt (Aug 12, 2005)

InfamousJ said:


> how about a back kick up into his crotch? would that work?


It would work if you want to get cut.


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## Blk Jck 224 (Oct 16, 2009)

Hotrod said:


> No back shots. But if he didnt turn around, Id put a few in his car tires or car so the police could hopefully catch him


Yup...Then if he turned around & came back towards you with the knife...Well...Bang Bang Bang.


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## lost-in-salt (Aug 12, 2005)

Blk Jck 224 said:


> Yup...Then if he turned around & came back towards you with the knife...Well...Bang Bang Bang.


Case law has shown that the "safe" distance for an officer dealing with a man with a knife to be 21 feet. Studies have shown that if a person charges an officer from less than 21 feet that the officer is likely to get stabbed even if he shoots the suspect. However, some of the people on this thread have posted that they would wait until the person is only a few steps away to protect themselves. I guess they are better trained than even our best law enforcement officers. Even if I win in the end and live - I don't want to get cut!


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## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

I have been in this situation years ago...not at an ATM but long story short I bluffed my way out of it over some jewelry I was wearing at the time. There were two of them vatos...one behind me and another to my left playing with a butterfly knife and he took a stab at my hip. This was before you could get a CHL and when they came available I got one. I can tell you this, if it happens again and I have my gun on me there is no words of bluff coming out of my mouth...I will be talking with my pistol and shooting to kill! I don't care if it is $400 or $40,000 it aint right...the guy is threatening your life.


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## Pistol58 (Oct 9, 2009)

RobaloSunrise said:


> I'd have shot him, his dog, the cat taking a dump in the azaleas, a beaver, and just for good measure I would have double taped a Buick. That's how I roll. Street!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Thats one of the funniest things Ive read on here in a while!!

A beaver is bout like the ninjas. The suckers only work at night and there hard to find! - SI


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## TXDRAKE (Jun 24, 2004)

I would have done whatever it took to make sure I got home to my family, period!!!


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## RACER (Mar 15, 2006)

*wow*



lost-in-salt said:


> Case law has shown that the "safe" distance for an officer dealing with a man with a knife to be 21 feet. Studies have shown that if a person charges an officer from less than 21 feet that the officer is likely to get stabbed even if he shoots the suspect. However, some of the people on this thread have posted that they would wait until the person is only a few steps away to protect themselves. I guess they are better trained than even our best law enforcement officers. Even if I win in the end and live - I don't want to get cut!


Wow someone got it rite! if you can beat this fact you are better than anyone else! Hell you dont even need a gun!


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## bevo83 (Feb 26, 2010)

That dude needed to eat some lead. Numbers say that at some point he is gonna kill/hurt somebody. Dont let him have the chance. Dont worry bout his family, stats show his offspring will follow his footsteps. Maybe if the oldman catchs a round, it would give them a better shot at life.


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