# Spiral Wraps



## fishin styx (Jun 30, 2009)

I've built several casting rods but they were all on top and I'm going to bite the bullet and build myself my first spiral (and first casting rod). But I have a question that I know I can get solved here; I'm going to use a double foot casting guide and then make the transition to the side and then underneath but do I need to use a double foot guide for the transition?
What are you're thoughts?
This will be a rod used for plugging on top and suspending baits for redfish and speckled trout.


----------



## Zombie (May 24, 2009)

I build mine using the bumper guide method. I've used it on everything from FW bass rods to SW rods for Dorado. On the bass rods, I use a double-foot stripper then singles to the tip including the bumper guide at 90 degrees. Just the way I do it. Randy.


----------



## Terrynj (Jun 27, 2006)

I actually use small single foot guides for the bumper. Double foot guides are way to tall for transitioning the line to the bottom and makes the line jog outwards more than in needs to. I rotate my stripper in the direction of my rotation about 5 - 10 degrees, then put the bumper around 2:00 (I usually use a 3.5 - 4.0), then I put the third guide at about 170 degrees. i also do them quicker with only about 12 "s for the 3 guides, once underneath, I just use a spinning guide layout since I'm on the bottom.

heres a link to the layout ....

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=123062&p=3&topicID=34903838

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=123062&p=3&topicID=34903838There are a lot of ways of doing them...this is just what I do....be aware of the ones that rotate slowly...if your guides aren't underneath when you get into the flex f the blank...the line is still going to torque your blank


----------



## Charlie2 (Aug 21, 2004)

Terrynj said:


> There are a lot of ways of doing them...this is just what I do....be aware of the ones that rotate slowly...if your guides aren't underneath when you get into the flex f the blank...the line is still going to torque your blank


Very good advice about the flex. If the first 180* guide isn't before the flex, you're negating some advantage of the spiral in the first place.

Another thing, and I will get negatives on this one is the spine(spline).

If the guides aren't properly oriented with the spine(spline) the rod will twist(torque) on the back cast.

Don't get me to talking spiral wraps. I haven't wrapped a rod with guides on top for several years now.

I build long surf rods and use the O'Quinn method for the transition with double footed guides for the transition with single footed guides for the running guides. C2


----------



## Pods (Jan 11, 2006)

When I do the "simple" spiral I use a double foot for the stripping guide then singles all the way out to the tip. The stripper on the 0 axis the bumper guide on the 90 degree and the following guides on the bottom or 180 degrees. The bumper is located exactly half the distance from the stripper to the first guide on the bottom. Try and keep all guides as small as possibe and still get the job done, hence weight reduction. Good luck, you will likely get some stares from nearby fishermen but let them cast and handle it and they will be a convert.

Pods


----------



## Charlie2 (Aug 21, 2004)

Let them laugh! I put up with it when I first started wrapping long surf rods some years ago. Now; everyone's an expert on it.

More and more people are finding out that the spiral wrap works better especially when using the so-called 'micro' guides; some going down to 3.5 or 4 mm.

Many people mistake the 'Bumper' guide for the Simple Spiral. 

The Bumper method has it's transition guide exactly at 90 degrees and exactly halfway between the first and third guides. It isn't a load bearing guide and a single footed guide will serve you well.

A Simple Spiral has its middle guide further down the rod depending upon the line angle and can be at different angles from 90 degrees. It is a load bearing guide but a single footed guide will work well.

The long spirals use multiple transition guides and I like to use double footed guides for them.

The Forhan Method uses multiple guides on short rods.

I use single footed guides for running guides on all methods and have had no problems with rather large fish. 

Most cast well.C2


----------



## RJH (Dec 24, 2008)

Charlie, sorry no, you are mistaken. The "Bumper" guide is a part of the "Simple Spiral." They go hand in hand.

The Simple Spiral, according to the original article is the same layout as you would have if you put all the guides up on top like a regular baitcasting rod. Then you roll ALL the guides EXCEPT the butt guide to the bottom in those same locations. THEN, you go back and put a low frame guide halfway between the butt and first 180 guide at from 90 to 110 degrees depending on rod action. 

The mistake I see a lot of people make is that they turn the Bumper guide into the 2nd guide in essence which turns it into a transition guide which it is not supposed to be. The first 180 guide remains the 2nd guide in the overall guide layout and spacing and the Bumper is then added between that one and the butt guide. This usually places it about four to maybe five inches from the butt guide and the same from the first 180 guide. Done this way it does not play any role in transitioning the line, it only acts as something for the line to "Bump" against instead of the rod blank as it moves past the rod between the butt and first 180 guide. I believe this is where the term "Bumper" came from. The author used it in his original article to show the difference between it and a regular transition guide.


----------



## xxxxxQTRODS (Nov 17, 2009)

*first timer*

it is very simple take you a set of guides and spiril them around to the bottom of the rod. it is not that technical. you do want the guide up from the stripper to be at ninty, but you do not want to drop the size of the guide down any futher than one size smaller than the stripper guide. the reason is that you can not aways plane on the rod being pulled down when a fish is on. if the rod is pulled oppisite of the roll of the guides the line is going to have the tendency to rub the blank. if you was to build you a very fast tapper rod that would bend almost to the handle ( like very lite bait rod). you want the rod to be able to not have the line touch the rod blank.

i also work on fishing reel and one thing that you pay for on a $200.00 dollar reel is a good drag. so we do not want the line to be able to touch the rod at any time to countereact those smooth drags do we.

also the original spiril wrap was called by the name roberts wrap in the late 60s or early 1970s and word was it was called that becaused a man name roberts from kansas was the first to spiril wrap a rod. believe me all he had to do it with at that time was a set of double foot carboloid or stainless guides.

i am also an advid bass fisherman and all of my rods are spiriled wrapped and every rod i build to day have spirilled wrapped guides on them only except if the customer request otherwise....................bennie


----------



## RJH (Dec 24, 2008)

According to what I have read in the magazine, a fellow named John Scanlan patented the spiral wrap in the early 1900s. He would have been the first by virtue of proof. The Roberts Wrap name did come from a KS builder named Roberts and it was an old Rodcrafter guy named Joy Dunlap that slapped that name on the rods he built after seeing Mr. Roberts earlier rods. Of course all this is assuming the history I have read about the spiral wrap is correct.


----------



## Steve Gardner (Mar 23, 2008)

While Terrynj and I don not use exactly the same lay out.

You will come a lot closer to having a good set up that will perform beyond your expectations be listening to him, then some of the other advice you have been given.

If you intend to use micro guides? My advice is that you do NOT use the simple spiral method on your rod.


----------



## Goags (May 28, 2004)

Hey Steve,
In general, how do you handle the transition? I've been doing it w/ 2 guides between the butt guide and the running guides, but not all bunched up w/in 12". Jerry


----------



## Steve Gardner (Mar 23, 2008)

Jerry
First I will establish the guide locations by static/stress testing with the guides set up all on bottom. The same way I would do, if I were running them all on top for a conventional set up and mark those locations.
 Then for guide alignment;
I mount my reel on rod, rotate handle until line guide is centered. Then sight straight down rod and (rotating to the right) align the center of the line guide on reel with the left edge of the stripper guide, by moving the guide around to the point at which these points intersect.
 Then using the sight path created by aligning up the first two, align the left side of the next guide with the right side of the stripper guide and so on, till I'm transitioned to the bottom. Depending on the guide sizes, the fourth guide is usually just a little off the 180 mark, but sometimes dead on the 180. 
What I have when finished is a smooth transition from top to bottom that allows the line to have the straightest path possible from top to bottom, creating very little side pressure on the guides. Which in turn I believe allows for longer casting.
After the set up, I run and orange fly line through the guides and tweak anything that looks like it's at more of an angle then the others. 
Any line would do, even some type of twine or kite string the orange color just makes things stand out better.

Let's dispel of a myth;
Blanks are designed to bend, flex, torque, twist, and survive these actions even after years of doing so. If they weren't every time a fish ran left or right the blanks would fail. 
 Some times on extremely hard hook sets, like what is common while using flipping sticks with short lengths of braided types lines with no stretch. With guides on top it is possible to generate enough impact torque/twist to cause blank failure, but even this very seldom happens.

For the most part torque and twist does not harm a blank. 
There have been tests done on this in which blanks were twisted 360 degrees with out causing problems, and most went past the 360 mark before blank failures started to occur. 

So to have a guide cause torque issues in the latter 1/3 of the rod were it is stronger then the tip third is just isn't going to happen. Long before the guide could cause such an issue with the blank. The guides, wrappings, or epoxy would give out first. 

Even the thought that the guide would cause problems pushing the blank side wards in the opposite direction the line is pushing against it doesn't make sense. 

The furthest the guide could push the blank (if it could) is the distance from bottom of the foot to the bottom of inside ring 1/16" to 1/4" maybe.
You have a blank designed bend some 90 degrees or better and a guide that may (under extreme duress) cause a tiny side wards flex. It's not a problem!


----------



## fishin styx (Jun 30, 2009)

Well good, bad or otherwise, I started my first spiral yesterday. I got the grips reamed and put on and the reel seat on as well. 
After a little dinner and the grips were firmly in place I took a spare reel and staretd playing with guide placement. I don't really know what angles they are but I kept playing and adjusting and looking and adjusting and looking and adjusting until I had a nice smooth transition to the bottom of the rod. No line rub, on the bottom before blank's flex. I'll get them wrapped tongith it's just too bad I won't have it done in time to try this weekend. Headed to the beach tomorrow morning.
Thanks for everyone's help and advice.


----------

