# Ethical or no? What to do?



## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Hypothetical....

If a hunting guide is reporting and advertising as being covered up in birds....when his guided hunt results are quite the contrary....is that ethical?

I'm all for positive marketing...but honesty is imperative.

Do you warn other hunters? Or do you let the repeat business (or lack thereof) take care of itself?

I'm certainly not one for guide bashing...and I understand that this is hunting and not killing...but I also know right and wrong.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Fair honest reviews....good and bad....are very valuable....to people looking for guided trips and to keep the guides honest and fair back.

Amount of game has nothing to do with the ethic or how hard they worked. But false reports and hope to get your money sucks....and I see that more often than not. Just give accurate info....i for one will not compromise my integrity for anyone at any Price. And if a guided client asks for a recent report he will get it accurately.


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## Jaredlee264 (Jan 2, 2017)

I wouldn't bah the guide per say, but I'd give a fair and honest review. For some people one hunt is all they can afford for the season. I feel they deserve as much info as possible. Just my opinion. 


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## Main Frame 8 (Mar 16, 2007)

I've never seen a business that advertises services that aren't attractive to prospective customers.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

Don't bash anyone, but keep your fellow hunters in mind. I think most people would want and appreciate a heads up/warning.


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## DA REEL DADDY (Jun 7, 2005)

IDK, but I think it is along the same line.

I booked a tarpon trip out of Florida once. I wanted to book a full day. The guide told me just to take half a day, because once it got hot the bite turned off and did not want to take advantage of us. I went half a day and after the few hours the bite did turn off. We caught one and I gave him a handsome tip for his honesty.

I have had fishing guides cancel trips because the fishing was going to be off.

I think credibility builds a service too and entices a customer to return. A guide should be honest because it only builds his future clients and recommendations as well. 

If I get reports from him I do expect something close to them. IF not, I will not return or recommend anyone else.

I respect guides and their profession as professionals in a passion I enjoy. I treat them with the most respect and expect the same in return as a client. Bull is disrespectful on both sides of the coin.

as far as what to do? Good question. As for me, I would not bash him on the internet I would only give opinions to close friends who may be in the same market. The internet can ruin someone's business and if I was wrong, or if it was truthfully just a bad day, I would hate to have that on my shoulders.


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

The guide might really be covered up with birds for a day or two, but that can all change with the whim of the birds or the weather.


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## Blank Czech (Jul 26, 2016)

I think I know who you're referring to and ive had the same dilemma after being a duck lease member (eventually quit going) and two goose trips thinking it was a one time failure. If not the same person, then I've been in the same situation with a guide I found on 2cool. 

Due to site rules I've not said anything here, but I do believe your opinion should be made without "bashing". Try yelp or elsewhere to help other hunters.


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## Trout-deluxe (Apr 6, 2009)

AvianQuest said:


> The guide might really be covered up with birds for a day or two, but that can all change with the whim of the birds or the weather.


This would be my expectations, based on my experience as a long term goose Hunter. Wind direction change, cloud ceiling levels, change in weather patterns can and do impact birds...

Trout-deluxe


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Guys....I really wish this were a case of shifting birds and weather...trust me it is not.

I have duck hunted for years...had some great hunts, some terrible ones, and a whole lot in between.

My best hunts were when I was young and we spent an equal amount of time scouting as we did hunting. We knew where the birds were and we knew their patterns.

When I pay a guide, I would hope he is doing the same...I think most in fact do...not some shot in the dark and hoping for the best (note those were his exact words on how his goose hunts usually end up). 

We have a duck lease...it's been slow...I booked a hunt and carried along some young men that paid with their hard earned $$...we could have hunted free on our lease but wanted to enjoy a guided hunt one time this year.

When you have not one but two embarrassing hunts with a guide (2nd was no charge) and see reports afterwards that he is covered in birds...that is disappointing. Not to put too fine a point on it...but in two hunts we killed 1 bird...and put eyes on a total of about 6 birds (none decoyed most were a long ways off).

When the guide admits that he hasn't had a decent hunt in a while (sitting in the blind) ...but his online reports on bird #s indicate otherwise...that is unethical IMHO.

Also, when you get a call from the guide asking if you have any decoys...that's a rather bad sign as well.

Sorry to rant...I feel better now...just a bit frustrated that these boys had their hopes up. I guess that's a teachable moment as well.


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## LA Wader (Oct 22, 2013)

98aggie77566 said:


> Guys....I really wish this were a case of shifting birds and weather...trust me it is not.
> 
> I have duck hunted for years...had some great hunts, some terrible ones, and a whole lot in between.
> 
> ...


Man that's not cool if the guide is claiming great hunts on the web and admitting to not killing much while on the hunt. If the guide is asking if you have decoys....that's just nuts!

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## Garwood57 (Jul 1, 2007)

I am definitely against guide bashing, but fair honest reports are always welcome. Good hunts get broadcast, but we need the rest of the story. Your stated case certainly speaks to poor ethics and business, no problem reporting that.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

98aggie77566 said:


> Or do you *let the repeat business (or lack thereof) take care of itself? *





DA REEL DADDY said:


> as far as what to do? Good question. As for me, I would not bash him on the internet I would only give opinions to close friends who may be in the same market. The internet can ruin someone's business and if I was wrong, or if it was truthfully just a bad day, I would hate to have that on my shoulders.


.


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

Reminds me of "Full Limits" Jack Holland. I loved the man, and miss him, but he would crack me up on the AM show every moring. But Jack, we only killed a few birds yesterday. "'shut your arse up and get in the truck boy".


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## GunDog (Jun 6, 2006)

The guide should be honest, most hunters understand that hunts are hit and miss...and I guide should not misrepresent that. Reputations follow people and if he is not a truthful guide it will come out and..it just depends upon how long it will take for it to do so.


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## 3CK (Oct 5, 2010)

You lease and paid for a guided hunt from the same outfitter?

Or the lease and guided hunts are two separate entities?


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## LA Wader (Oct 22, 2013)

Aggiechick said:


> Reputations follow people and if he is not a truthful guide it will come out and..it just depends upon how long it will take for it to do so.


This is so true!

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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

3CK said:


> You lease and paid for a guided hunt from the same outfitter?
> 
> Or the lease and guided hunts are two separate entities?


Lease and guided hunts were with two separate entities.

Turns out I'm not the only one that has experienced this with the guide in question.

Pretty sad...in the meantime, this guy is taking a lot of $ from folks. Doesn't bother me as much as it does the young men that spent their hard earned $.


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## daddyeaux (Nov 18, 2007)

When I get asked that question I try to be as honest as possible. We have 9 different blinds and not all blinds are going to limit out. I will tell people some of our blinds are doing good and some aren't. My first 3 hunts this year I had a total of 6 birds. Most of our blinds were at full limits, some near limits but the ones I chose just were not happening. I chose 3 different blinds on 3 different days and couldn't find a bird. But I was covered up.......


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Three guys so far have PM'd with near identical experiences.....wish it were just my bad luck with this guy.

I won't bash anyone on the forum per the rules....but if you're looking for a duck hunting guide, I'm happy to share my learnings via PM to save others the hassle.


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## timberhunter (Feb 20, 2008)

98aggie77566 said:


> Three guys so far have PM'd with near identical experiences.....wish it were just my bad luck with this guy.
> 
> I won't bash anyone on the forum per the rules....but if you're looking for a duck hunting guide, I'm happy to share my learnings via PM to save others the hassle.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same boat with same guy here too. Anyone feel free to Pm me for info also, dude deserves a mud stomping as far as im concerned


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## Jamie (Aug 2, 2011)

In the context of waterfowl hunting .....thats a hard question to answer cuz there's too many unknowns

When I guided

There were days when I knew it would be bad (these were rare) and I was right

There were days that I thought would be bad...and I was wrong

There were days that I thought would be bad...and it was

There were days when I was convinced we would hammer them....and we didn't

There were days I was convinced we would hammer them....and we did

Having said all of that....I don't subscribe to the whole "well it is hunting and not shooting"...as a guide one should fulfill the notion that you will show your hunters a fun experience including a good shoot

If that's not fulfilled...a discount should be offered


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## Blue.dog (May 8, 2005)

I had a great experience with a guide from El Campo several years ago.

I had booked 6 spots for my friends and I for opening day of Dove season.

His wife called me 2 or 3 days before the hunt to tell me that the birds had left and there were no birds. She offered to refund our money or rebook us. All of us decided for the refund because we could not get together at another time.

Two days later, I received our refund of $300 in the mail.
Those people are very ethical and I have gone back each year with successful hunts.
B.D


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## daddyeaux (Nov 18, 2007)

Now I have a question, reading Jamie's post made me think of this.

Just because you have a bad hunt, why should the outfitter offer a discount?
After all, the outfitter has no control over what the birds are going to do.
The outfitter often provides you with a place to stay, meals to eat, puts out the decoys and does their best to call birds in when they appear.
The outfitter is only providing you with the opportunity to bag some birds.

Most outfitters are leasing the land and ponds you are hunting on.
The landowners don't offer the outfitter a discount if you don't shoot any birds.
The outfitter has to pay for land and water whether anyone shoots any birds or not.
I have been on many a day hunt for deer, hogs, sheep and turkeys where we didn't fire a shot. Not one of those outfitters offered and kind of discount, so why should a waterfowl outfitter offer one?


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

I don't expect a discount for a slow hunt.

Matter of fact, I still gave the guy a tip after paying full price for the 1 bird hunt.

I even offered a tip on the 2nd no bird hunt....the one where I was pawned off on his kid brother as a guide at the last minute.

All I ask for in a guide is honesty and hard work...no less than I expect of myself each day.

And I'm willing to pay for it....I do get a little aggravated at seeing my son and his buddies taken advantage of....thus the thread we are reading.

Lesson learned: when you see a guy offering extreme discounts, there is a good reason. The top notch/hard working guys have repeat clients filling up the books. Shame on me for being a tightwad.


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## timberhunter (Feb 20, 2008)

Don't think that's the point here but I see what you're saying. A lot of waterfowlers call to book a hunt b/c they don't have birds on their places at the time. They don't need him to put the dekes out or call the birds, they need some access with birds. Matter of fact I put out most decoys and picked up decoys and brought my own pulsators to put out b/c there was no wind that day. They call and ask if the outfitter has birds, most outfitters are straight shooters, they say whether or not they have a huntable number of birds. In my case, I had called 3 other outfitters in different areas and they told me don't bother no birds, fair nuff. At the time I had very few birds on my lease too which was also in a completely different area. Called this guy and said he had birds in another area.  we booked it. I could have shot more birds at my lease, to the guys credit he did offer a 2nd hunt but I'm not that dumb and don't have the time to waste like that. I payed him what he was asking without complaining but knew i got the finger right away when we didn't have a single bird drop in before shooting light on a tank in a pasture. Just be truthful with everyone and it won't come back to bite you. I figured it was just a matter of time before he was outed. It happens to the best of Bs'rs



daddyeaux said:


> Now I have a question, reading Jamie's post made me think of this.
> 
> Just because you have a bad hunt, why should the outfitter offer a discount?
> After all, the outfitter has no control over what the birds are going to do.
> ...


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## daddyeaux (Nov 18, 2007)

Not meaning any disrespect 98Aggie, or trying to hi jack your thread.
Just someone mentioned offering a discount for a bad hunt.
Just wanted to point out that other types of outfitters offer no discounts at all.
It was commendable of you to tip on your bad hunts and not ask for a discount.
I understand totally what you are saying in your thread and agree with you.
We do give discounts on bad hunts and I was just wondering why, is it ethical to offer discounts?


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

timberhunter said:


> Same boat with same guy here too. Anyone feel free to Pm me for info also, dude deserves a mud stomping as far as im concerned


Guys, if there's a known issue with a guide please just post the name to save a lot of fellow hunters the trouble.


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## Jamie (Aug 2, 2011)

Well...birds don't really move unless there's some major weather change...so, if the weather is stable and the outfitter had birds and suddenly doesn't on your hunt.....that's an issue

My worst situation was a 4+ inch rain before a guided hunt....our coastal birds would head inland

We would literally go from a ton a birds to none overnight


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## Part Timer (Jul 2, 2012)

Jamie said:


> Well...birds don't really move unless there's some major weather change...so, if the weather is stable and the outfitter had birds and suddenly doesn't on your hunt.....that's an issue
> 
> My worst situation was a 4+ inch rain before a guided hunt....our coastal birds would head inland
> 
> We would literally go from a ton a birds to none overnight


The way I understood his issue is, he had 2 bad hunts with no birds and then he saw the outfitter was still advertising that they were covered in birds to book more hunts.

You could just screenshot the ad and send him a txt saying let's hunt again if you covered up. Call him out on it. I think if it happens enough it will get around regardless and next year's lack of buisness will show for it.

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## 3CK (Oct 5, 2010)

Where these really cheap hunts? Like below the standard rates we see for our area?

Around $120-140?

Doesn't take much to figure this out without naming anyone.


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

Part Timer said:


> *The way I understood his issue is, he had 2 bad hunts with no birds and then he saw the outfitter was still advertising that they were covered in birds to book more hunts.*
> 
> You could just screenshot the ad and send him a txt saying let's hunt again if you covered up. Call him out on it. I think if it happens enough it will get around regardless and next year's lack of buisness will show for it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Exactly. I think some of you guys are missing 98's point.

It's not that the guide told them "I'm covered up with birds", then took them out and it was a bad hunt. That happens.

It was the other way around. _Guide posted a "covered up with birds" report about that bad hunt._

That has nothing to do with the birds moving, having a bad hunt, tough luck, discount second hunts, or anything else.

That has everything to do with false advertising and is flat wrong.


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## Blank Czech (Jul 26, 2016)

timberhunter said:


> Same boat with same guy here too. Anyone feel free to Pm me for info also, dude deserves a mud stomping as far as im concerned


X3. Not a case of birds one day gone the next.

My buddy finds him online and due to stellar reviews on his Fb page, books a duck hunt with him, they don't fire a shot. He offers a free rehunt, buddy drives from Beaumont to waller for rehunt with "covered in birds" and they shot one spoonie. 
First goose hunt was "covered with birds and just need hunters" well he had a field between the roost and feed field, problem was his field was nowhere near either. We shot one lost bird. He offered a rehunt and I considered until I learned after the fact this was the same guy my buddy above went with. 
Fast forward one year to 2015. I wasn't going to lease but got a club membership last minute at reduced price ($500) with low expectations (how could I expect much at that price) mainly due to seeing a couple of posts on 2cool saying people had decent hunts with home. I Got a decent dove hunt in waller opening day. Once duck season opened, I may have shot two birds in five hunts. These were with him also. Not to mention he forgot the dog one day, claimed he saw an alligator on one hunt and wouldn't stop shooting at what he saw, his gf coming to every hunt, he fell asleep one hunt and talked about how he'd been up for 3 days in a row. Pathetic.

All of the time these hunts were followed with posts on 2cool of how he had plenty of birds and just needed hunters.

Yes, bad business ethics eventually work their way out. Fortunately but unfortunately the 2cool family is so large it will take a while. 


3CK said:


> Where these really cheap hunts? Like below the standard rates we see for our area?
> 
> Around $120-140?
> 
> Doesn't take much to figure this out without naming anyone.


Or maybe sub $100 at times ?


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm feeling a bit better about starting this thread now.....seems there are at least 5 of us with identical stories.

I'm not usually one to make a stink on things like this on a forum.....but I'm betting there are still quite a few others out there....and likely even more to follow at this rate.


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## justletmein (Feb 11, 2006)

Blank Czech said:


> X3. Not a case of birds one day gone the next.
> 
> My buddy finds him online and due to stellar reviews on his Fb page, books a duck hunt with him, they don't fire a shot. He offers a free rehunt, buddy drives from Beaumont to waller for rehunt with "covered in birds" and they shot one spoonie.
> First goose hunt was "covered with birds and just need hunters" well he had a field between the roost and feed field, problem was his field was nowhere near either. We shot one lost bird. He offered a rehunt and I considered until I learned after the fact this was the same guy my buddy above went with.
> ...


This guy needs to be outed. Our fellow 2coolers could be booking hunts with him as we speak.


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

We are up to 7 confirmed victims.

I think by now most can put 2 and 2 together on the culprit.

Seems to be his MO for more than a few years...I've had PMs from several folks with stories even more colorful than mine!


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## Jamie (Aug 2, 2011)

Then,

And this nothing about the outfitter...but booking any kind of paid hunt...there's something called "due diligence"

And that is a lot simpler to do in the Google age

If I can't find what I think is a reliable testimonial....that's a red flag...and I've booked my fair share of paid hunts


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## hounddog (Nov 12, 2006)

3CK said:


> Where these really cheap hunts? Like below the standard rates we see for our area?
> 
> Around $120-140?
> 
> Doesn't take much to figure this out without naming anyone.


BINGO....Hell he was down to $85 few days ago.


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Jamie said:


> Then,
> 
> And this nothing about the outfitter...but booking any kind of paid hunt...there's something called "due diligence"
> 
> ...


Certainly a case of caveat emptor!

Based on the # of bad experiences I am seeing with this guy, I'm not the only one that allowed him to pass the sniff test.

He is a talker...really should be in some sort of corporate sales capacity.

He has a decent website, updates his Facebook page regularly with pics of good hunts, and I have yet to find a bad review online anywhere.

I guess I could have asked for references, and made calls, but that is easy to fudge as well.

I guess I am just too trusting, and expect more of my fellow outdoorsmen.

Any tips on how to proceed with due diligence that I may have missed?


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## THUNDERSTORM (Feb 10, 2011)

Hate that you had a bad hunt ,only happened to me once ,guide was late,drunk, <the outfitter is out of business now> i would not mind seeing a guide rating system on 2cool for guides,outfitters that advertise here.no bashing just rate on a scale how you enjoyed the hunt .if i guided i would like to see how i was doing.


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Edit to my prior post....my comment on corporate sales was poorly worded.

I work with a ton of sales folks....it is a demanding job if you want to succeed.

Perhaps used cars....no offense to used car dealers


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## sheldonasvoboda (Apr 23, 2015)

stuff like this is why I have a hard time paying anybody to take me hunting or fishing, Id rather sleep in than pay someone 150 bucks a gun and MAYBE have success, I can drink beer and get skunked for free any time I want, with nobody to blame but myself


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## Trout green (Aug 25, 2012)

He got me a couple years ago.. I just took it as you get what you pay for and started hunting with Run N Gun... at least they tell the truth and the work hard to build a good business.


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## Whitecrow (May 26, 2004)

Jamie said:


> Then,
> 
> And this nothing about the outfitter...but booking any kind of paid hunt...there's something called "due diligence"
> 
> ...


Here's a 5 page thread blasting the guy, yet not one mention of his name or business name per forum rules........not much going to show up in a google search.


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## BuddyB16 (Jul 22, 2016)

Ah, yes this guy got me in college 2 years back. I have since learned there is no such thing as a good deal within 2 hours of Houston. 

Pay for what you get, or go stand in line if you aren't going to leave the 2 hour circle of Houston.


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## txlenchs (Jul 28, 2012)

*2cool moderator perspective?*

OK, I have only one rule when it comes to hiring 2cool guides...

Are they a sponsor? If yes, I'll use them....shadslinger, r&g, crocker, poobah, capt mike, and others...are all good and we all know it. (if you go to guides hunts want ads there are basically 8-10 folks advertising over the last 2-3 months and roughly half are sponsors)

Hope the following does not mess your thread 98aggie..

So 2cool moderator dude, two questions:
1) if a guide is NOT a sponsor and is clearly hoodwinking folks, is your policy that the board cannot expose them?
2) do you do any due diligence on folks who sponsor on your site? (obviously you probably can't "endorse" them but do you check then out at all over the years?)

Cheers...txlenchs


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Choosing this squirrel was a dumb call on my part.....the price was attractive, and I was trying to make it as cheap as possible on my son and his teenage buddy's wallets.

I reckon I owe it to them to book a hunt on my nickel given I screwed the pooch on the first choice.

Agreed on sponsors.....several to choose from....I'll make calls to Run-N-Gun and Grand Poobah to see what I can work out before the season wraps up.

The more I think about this....the more pizzed off I become.


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Up to 11 victims....


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## bill (May 21, 2004)

txlenchs said:


> OK, I have only one rule when it comes to hiring 2cool guides...
> 
> Are they a sponsor? If yes, I'll use them....shadslinger, r&g, crocker, poobah, capt mike, and others...are all good and we all know it. (if you go to guides hunts want ads there are basically 8-10 folks advertising over the last 2-3 months and roughly half are sponsors)
> 
> ...


not sure who you're addressing but the rules have been put into place for a reason

I think I know who this thread is about, if you were a victim of this person(s), PM me the name(s) and the date and I will address it. Please don't send me a long story 

BTW, if there is a site sponsor problem, PM me or Mont and we will look into it as well. Site sponsors have to follow the rules as well and they are upstanding people imo. It's rare there are any issues with sponsors.


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks Bill!!!

For all of you guys that have PM'd me or called, please take a few moments to PM Bill with a quick story.

If we can save others on the forum the heartburn....I will consider my $$ well spent.


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## hounddog (Nov 12, 2006)

Whitecrow said:


> Here's a 5 page thread blasting the guy, yet not one mention of his name or business name per forum rules........not much going to show up in a google search.


you can go to hunting classified section and pretty much figure it out without getting someone banned or PM 98aggie or me and will give you information


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## saltaholic (Feb 19, 2005)

Sooo is anyone gonna post the name?


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## buckweet (Aug 8, 2011)

Got trip with larry gore tomorrow
Ken jasek saturday
Jeremey sunday.....

Will report back how it goes, hear they are all covered up.


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## timberhunter (Feb 20, 2008)

buckweet said:


> Got trip with larry gore tomorrow
> 
> Ken jasek saturday
> 
> ...


Bring lots of shells!!!


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## Backlash Billy (Nov 22, 2009)

buckweet said:


> Got trip with larry gore tomorrow
> 
> Ken jasek saturday
> 
> ...


Haha!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Backlash Billy (Nov 22, 2009)

Backlash Billy said:


> Haha!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I went on a dove hunt on the east side a couple of years ago, no birds so he said i have a place in Waller full of birds. Made the haul, one bird. Never again. I wouldn't go with him on a free trip!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 98aggie77566 (Jul 7, 2009)

I've lost count on PMs.....pretty sure we are at 13 victims.

Surprised this guy hasn't required dental work at this point with this many folks having identical (or worse) experiences.

Please PM Bill your details...hoping to save fellow hunters the hassle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## daddyeaux (Nov 18, 2007)

buckweet said:


> Got trip with larry gore tomorrow
> Ken jasek saturday
> Jeremey sunday.....
> 
> Will report back how it goes, hear they are all covered up.


By chance if you have a bad hunt, ask Larry Gore for a discounted hunt.


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