# argument FOR a .264 Winchester Mag?



## Trout Laguna (Aug 31, 2007)

So, I am going to buy a deer rifle. I want a flat shooting bolt gun that will also be a decent bench gun in the off season. I am considering the .270 WSM and the .264 win mag, with the 25-06 being a distant third option. Here's why: I am committed to also acquiring a larger 30 caliber rifle. I know that the 7mm removed mag quickly out performs the.264 for larger game, and thusly out popularized it when it was released, but I think there are much, much better calibers for elk and nilgai, IE, .300 win mag, 338s of all kinds and the .30 caliber weatherbys. So, in theory, I'd be buying mid sized deer rifle that's a flat shooter as well. So, what are the boards thoughts on these 3 calibers, pro &cons, etc. 

Also, not going to go .243 because i already own a 6.8 spc in ar format. It's not a long range shooter.


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## shhhh...ducks (Feb 22, 2010)

I know others will disagree with me but here is what I think.......strictly my opinion

.270wsm...........not worth the minimal increases in velocity and energy to justify this over a .270 Winchester. If a person doesn't reload, then there is also the ammo availability and cost issue.

.264 win mag..............great cartridge but there is are reasons why they didn't ever really "catch on" like the .270. Then there is the barrel life............264 is a barrel burner.

After reading your post about what you wanted and what you wanted it for, the very first thing that popped into my mind was .257 mag
I know, yet another choice, but it a very fast, very flat, with killem dead downrange energy.......remember this

THERE IS A REASON THAT IT WAS ROY'S FAVORITE AS WELL!!!!!!!!!


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## BIG PAPPA (Apr 1, 2008)

*Can of worms here*

Agree with the 257 mag Weatherby. Mr weatherby's Favorite Caliber hands down. I have Taken Cyote's at over 600yds with the 257mag...but... They are Barrel Burners as well. Extremely Hot..
I have never really liked any of the Short stubby Calibers merely due to ammo selections. The 270, 25-06, 7mm Mag you speak of are some of my Favorite calibers. In fact, I have seen hand loads on the 25-06 that have less than 7 inches of total drop at 400 yards with some great kinetic energy at impact that would impress anyone. 
If you can find a Browning A-Bolt Stainless with Boss in 25-06, BUY IT.
I bought my wife one years ago, took it to the Range with Win ballistic silv tip and got 3/4" 5-shot group. Then I watched the Boss Video, Made the adjustment and her gun shoots better than 1/2" with Shelf Ammo.
I would say, stick with a Caliber that has Great Ballistics that will do the Job you want it to do, that is Fairly easy to find Ammo anywhere.
Good Luck with your choice.


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## daddyhoney (Dec 4, 2006)

Back in the 60s I had a 264 that killed every deer I shot with it. I never tried to make a bench gun from it. It would reach way out there and zipper fast. It moved on down the road as I was just a kid and other caliber ammo was far cheaper then. Like lots of gun nuts I went through many of the popular flavors and still buy sell and trade for those that bring a new interest. Since you have the 30cal thing covered, look hard at the 6.5x55 in a CZ or other brand the 260 and maybe a 6.5 Creedmore. Both are capable of great accuracy at long range with light recoil. Consider going to the Accurate Shooter forum and read up on dual purpose calibers and what they have to say. Good luck, GG


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Such a minute difference between the 264 mag and the standard .270 with a 130 grain bullet not really worth discussing as it relates to hunting. My longest to date with a .270 is 584 yds on a West Tx mule deer. (Verified on a laser range finder). I recommend the .270.


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## CDHknives (Mar 17, 2012)

I am one of the minority here I guess...I think the 264Mag is a better cartridge than the 7MMRem. There are a lot of great bullets in 6.5mm, especially as it has taken on great popularity in the long range BR game. For handloaders the 264 has it all over anything in the -06 cartridge class.


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## jm423 (Sep 18, 2011)

First choice for me--270 Win, second 25-06. Either will reach out and touch deer and hog size animals, totally capable of putting the bullet in the right place if the shooter does his part. Both (either) will cut cloverleafs downrange when properly tuned and with the right load. If for no other reason. I would scratch both of the OP's first two choices based on ammo availability--loaded or just brass.


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## Trout Laguna (Aug 31, 2007)

Lets talk about the .257, what manufacturers chamber it? Does sako?


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## kanga69 (Mar 17, 2011)

I currently shoot a 257 WBY and absolutely love it for small game no bigger than deer. It will kill anything you shoot with it but bullet penetration on larger game is questionable. The 264 has become a safe queen that I shoot every few years. The broad selection of 6.5 bullets is the main reason the 6.5's are loved on the bench rest circuit. For long range, the 6.5 will win hands down for accuracy due to the high ballistic coefficient of the 6.5 bullets. The .264 win mag lost popularity due to the lack of variety in factory ammo. If you choose to hand load it, you can shoot 85 gr hollow points all the way up to 140 grain bullets that have been used to take every large game animal in North America. Before I started hunting with a .257 WBY I shot many coyotes, hogs, and deer with the .264 and never had an animal run more that about 20 yes. I shot a deer in Mexico with the .264 at 350 yes. Hit him right behind the shoulder in the sweet spot with a double lung shot. He hit the ground and never kicked! That is one of many great memories of shooting that rifle.


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## kanga69 (Mar 17, 2011)

Trout Laguna said:


> Lets talk about the .257, what manufacturers chamber it? Does sako?


Wetherby Vanguard 2 makes a sweet rifle that is well know for its accuracy, out of the box. You can buy them from about 600 up to a 1000 for the beautiful wood version. I have had two customs that I regret selling that were built off of rem 700 actions and Krieger barrels. That will run you 1200 - 2K depending on what you have to start with. You can by a really nice Wetherby for about 1600.

You have my mind running. Might be time to build me another one!


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## CoastalOutfitters (Aug 20, 2004)

had an old winch 264 win mag for years , the rifle shot fine. sold it simply because i'm a lefty , no other reason.

the barrel burner reference is prob. long gone w today's ammo esp. the old norma rounds.

they used to warp drive ammo that you can't even buy anymore and if you shot enough rounds, you could wash out a barrel, but seriously how much are you going to shoot it ?

there was some 4300fps 220 swift ammo out there.......long gone

would not pass on a good 25-06.... maybe a 700cdl w a nice trigger ?


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

Big Poppa: "In fact, I have seen hand loads on the 25-06 that have less than 7 inches of total drop at 400 yards with some great kinetic energy at impact that would impress anyone." 

Big Pappa, This statement actually means nothing unless we know where you have your gun sighted in at 100 yards. I could sight my rifle in for dead on at 400 yards ( which might be 5-7" high at 100 yards) and have ZERO drop at 400 yards. So what??

So unless we know where that rifle hits at 100 yards, we really don't know if that is good or not.

Agree with the barrel burner rep of the 264 winmag being a moot point, because it would take a lot of shooting to do that. competition type of volume. 

If the shooter is a reloader, you can do some fun things with a 264 winmag. It can be loaded down to 270 ballistics any time you want. I have a custom gun built on a 1917 enfield action with a bull barrel. I have shot some really nice groups with it. Would not want to carry it though, unless to a blind. Most in-the-know historians attribute the 7 mags overshadowing the 264 winmag to superior marketing- not necessarily a deficiency in performance.


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## prarie dog (Feb 28, 2011)

I like the 264 Win Mag it's a great cartridge. There is some newer stuff that is close to it from a ballistic standpoint, one I can vouch for, the 6.5-284. It'll get you close to the 264 velocity wise and be more accurate doing it. The brass and even loaded ammo is readily available.

If you're a handloader, there's a guy named Sherman on the longrange hunting site that has a wildcat that is almost identical to the 264 win mag, --3200fps with a 140 grain bullet, using a case that's based on the 270 Winchester, in addition Nosler introduced a new cartridge at the 2014 Shot Show called the 26 Nosler that is even faster than the 264. I don't know when factory chambered rifles in the Nosler cartridge will become available, perhaps soon.

Something else to consider is there's a Canadian outfit called Matrix that makes a 160 grain .264 bullet that is supposed to have a G1 BC close to 700. They aren't currently available but should be soon. Some of the guys on the Long Range hunting site have tried them and liked them.


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## shooter308 (Jul 31, 2013)

my choice would be a 30-338 will do anything a 300win mag or weatherby 300 can do. also a much better choice of bullets than a 257. and will kill anything u plan on shooting. is also better on barrels than the other two 30s mentioned. I push 190gr. bullets over 3100 fps all day.


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## woods (Dec 3, 2011)

I have had 2 rifles in 264 win mag. One was a pre-64 Winchester "Westerner" and those are very valuable and someone offered me more than I thought it was worth. However I did work with it for a couple of years.

The other was just a post 64 push feed Winchester with a 24" barrel that I got cheap. It had a problem with lots of room in front of the shoulder on new cases (not really headspace since the 264 headspaces on the belt, better called "shoulder gap")


















That's almost .040" expansion on initial firing. What that will do is thin cases at the web on the initial firing. A COMMON PROBLEM WITH 264 WIN MAG BRASS. My pre-64 had .030" expansion

Brass can be a real problem to get, especially right now, and you MUST reload if you shoot a 264 win mag since the factory loads are anemic as hell

Dies are much more available now than when I was reloading the 264 but they still don't have my favorite a Lee Collet Neck Sizer. The Redding Competition bushing dies are available but VERY expensive

The old saying was "What powder are you using for the 264? ________(fill in the blank). THAT is not slow enough!" IOW when the 264 was in it's heyday they used a lot of H870 which is very slow. I suppose the new RL33 would be slow enough. Slow burning powder is the main cause for low barrel life










In my reloading experience, the 264 win mag is ..... finicky. But that is just my opinion. I have reloaded for over 40 different rifles and that pre-64 was the hardest to get to shoot good.

A 264 win mag would do best with a 26" barrel in order to get the best performance.

My advice (worth what you paid for it), get a 270 Winchester. If you really want a 6.5, then there is also the 260 Remington. The 260 has good factory ammo and even Lapua makes brass for it. Believe me you are halfway to an excellent load with Lapua brass. And all kinds of dies including Lee Collets.


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## deckh (Jul 23, 2010)

Woods said it best. The .264 mag. is a barrel burner--over bore capacity.


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## BIG PAPPA (Apr 1, 2008)

*Dang Me Boobie Sue*



THE JAMMER said:


> Big Poppa: "In fact, I have seen hand loads on the 25-06 that have less than 7 inches of total drop at 400 yards with some great kinetic energy at impact that would impress anyone."
> 
> Big Pappa, This statement actually means nothing unless we know where you have your gun sighted in at 100 yards. I could sight my rifle in for dead on at 400 yards ( which might be 5-7" high at 100 yards) and have ZERO drop at 400 yards. So what??
> 
> ...


Dang Jammer, Didn't mean for you to get all Butt Hurt and Hate'n on Big Pappa here...Actually it was sighted in at 1.312358 inches high at 100. 
Amazing Comeback at me with your first statement and YOU didn't tell us where your gun was sighted in at 100...So I guess we're even..LOL
Didn't expect this kind of reply on a reload forum...I'll check in with you on any of my future replies to be sure they actually have meaning behind them..Sorry I ruffled your whatever it was..


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## CavassoCruisin (Jun 21, 2006)

I consider the .264 a nostalgia or throwback cartridge, along with the .220 Swift, the .257 Roberts, and some other great rounds that fell out of popularity. As long as you're ready to deal with its idiosyncracies and relative ammo scarcity, go for it.


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## CavassoCruisin (Jun 21, 2006)

shooter308 said:


> my choice would be a 30-338 will do anything a 300win mag or weatherby 300 can do. also a much better choice of bullets than a 257. and will kill anything u plan on shooting. is also better on barrels than the other two 30s mentioned. I push 190gr. bullets over 3100 fps all day.


He's ALSO getting a .30 cal...this thread is about the smaller-bore flat shooter.


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## THE JAMMER (Aug 1, 2005)

BIG PAPPA said:


> Dang Jammer, Didn't mean for you to get all Butt Hurt and Hate'n on Big Pappa here...Actually it was sighted in at 1.312358 inches high at 100.
> Amazing Comeback at me with your first statement and YOU didn't tell us where your gun was sighted in at 100...So I guess we're even..LOL
> Didn't expect this kind of reply on a reload forum...I'll check in with you on any of my future replies to be sure they actually have meaning behind them..Sorry I ruffled your whatever it was..


Gotta say I am laughing my a_ _ off at your 1.312358 inches. Now thats funny.Didn't mean to be mean. Just making a point that your data needed to be qualified with where you were sighted in at 100. I know you know this stuff well enough to agree with that. no hatin, no hurtin on ya. Heck I complemented your knife and sheath on the other thread. Nothing ruffled me, but remember the guy who started the thread was asking for some help and advice.

Regarding me not saying where my gun was sighted in- that was just a hypothetical. I generally sight my guns in about 1.5" high at 100 for texas hunting- puts em dead on at about 175-200 yards or so. When I hunt out west, I usually go about 3" high at 100, which puts em dead on at about 250-275. Don't have the exact figures right now, but that's close enough for hunting. I generally shoot 7mm-08, 308, and 30-06 for that kind of shooting.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

What the heck does that chart show? It even says that if loaded to full ballistic potential which most everyone does that barrel life will be the same regardless of propellant used. Who wants to load a .264 at .22lr velocities and get thousands of rounds of barrel life. I dont think slow burning has anything to do with throat life. Heat and pressure do.


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## twang56 (Nov 21, 2010)

*Memories*

Reading this thread is like going back in time for me. I wanted a 264 in the worst way 40 something years ago. Worked and saved then called the nearest dealer (2 hrs) they had a mod 70 in 264 so told them I wanted it and hold it for me. Traveled there the next day and they had sold it. Man the disappointment. Then I got mad and they offered me an unbelievable deal on a 7 mag. So good I got it and a new 22lr. In the end it all worked out for the best. Love the 6.5 bullet but the 7 Mag was never a disappointment. I had fun loading all weight bullets but ended up settling on 140 gr. so ballistically was very similar to the 264. A guy I currently work with shot a 264 for over 30 years but switch to a 270 3 yrs ago and has said he wished he had done so sooner. Less recoil, easier to find ammo and more convenient length getting in and out of blinds. So far he has not had to track a wounded deer with his 270 where it was almost the norm for his magnum. I wonder what a 264 could do today with the new components available?


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## BIG PAPPA (Apr 1, 2008)

*Gotcha My Friend*



THE JAMMER said:


> Gotta say I am laughing my a_ _ off at your 1.312358 inches. Now thats funny.Didn't mean to be mean. Just making a point that your data needed to be qualified with where you were sighted in at 100. I know you know this stuff well enough to agree with that. no hatin, no hurtin on ya. Heck I complemented your knife and sheath on the other thread. Nothing ruffled me, but remember the guy who started the thread was asking for some help and advice.
> 
> Regarding me not saying where my gun was sighted in- that was just a hypothetical. I generally sight my guns in about 1.5" high at 100 for texas hunting- puts em dead on at about 175-200 yards or so. When I hunt out west, I usually go about 3" high at 100, which puts em dead on at about 250-275. Don't have the exact figures right now, but that's close enough for hunting. I generally shoot 7mm-08, 308, and 30-06 for that kind of shooting.


 I gave you Green on that Knife thread and I just figured everyone sights in at 1-1.5 high at 100.
I'm cool as I know you are as well.. It's all good..


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## Screeminreel (Jun 2, 2004)

Just tossin my .02 out there.



> I am considering the .270 WSM and the .264 win mag, with the 25-06 being a distant third option.


To be honest I look more at how easily the components are to come by, for as you have seen in a time of a crunch thee isn't much to be found and the less popular, they are the harder they seem to be TO find. I like using base cartridges so to speak, like the 30-06. I can neck it up down or leave it the same and have quit a few different calibers just as you can with the .308. They are both pretty efficient depending on just what your loading, and both have a long history of being accurate, as do most of their offspring.

With some of the WSM's cases can be few and far between. If you want a .264 build ya one, and run away happy. Things have changed a ton since it's inception in, powders, barrels, and bullets. There are more options today than ever in all three, not to mention optics, and stocks to boot. Having it chambered to headspace off the shoulders will help out a lot with case life, using one of the newer higher quality barrels, combined with newer powders will help as well.

With some of the higher BC bullets available nowadays as well as the bonded core and mono metal, you can work up quite a variety of loads to suite just about anything you set your sights on. As for brass, it is easily had by simply necking down the 7 mag cases, while you can't get Lapua brass you can get Norma and it is quality stuff, and will last quite a while.

With the 25-06, well the biggest drawback to it is the variety of bullets. Not that the ones which are available aren't good, as most certainly are, just that for the most part you either get varmint bullets or deer bullets. If Wildcat Bullets was still around or if the above mentioned Canadian outfit called Matrix would produce them, you could have some 125 and 130gr bullets witch would easily work in a standard 1-10 twist. When the heavier weights are used in it they really have an totally different effect when they hit something. Way out of proportion to what you would think. I have some of the original Wildcat Custom bullets in 125 and 130 both with a rebated boat tail and a bonded core flat base. Both of these shoot as accurate as anything else I have loaded in my standard 25 but they REALLY shine in my AI version. It however is a bit specific and was built specifically for the heavier longer bullets with a 1-9 twist. I probably didn't need it but it sure stacks them in a nice cluster out to 350yd so I'm not complaining. The bullet I use the most is not one of the higher priced premium new designs either, it is the old 120gr Core Lokt, and it clover leafs groups right in with the best of them. The load uses Ramshot magnum and pushes them out in the mid 3300fps range, which from the 28" barrel is still about in the same range as a top end standard 25-06 load. The added barrel length makes a big difference. Trust me they can go faster but I see no reason to do so. They shoot around 1" out to 300 or so yards as is and that is plenty good for coyotes, deer, and hogs. The best part is they don't blow up even on close up shots like some of the higher dollar premium ones do.

If I were going to build up something new, I would probably go with either the 300 RUM or something based off that case, maybe a 338 Edge, or possibly even a 7mm. If I didn't go that direction, I would build me a first class 260, and with either probably be done with building things. Those would fill in the voids and fit nicely within the rest of the calibers I already have.

I only say that since I am sitting on 500 once fired RUM cases, and plenty of 308's as well. But with that RUM case you can get all one really needs for distance and bullet weight, and still keep the barrel on it for a good while. Some of the 180 and 200gr 7mm bullets are really something when you start getting the velocity up and plotting drops. They have come a long way with that caliber as well as .338 in the past 10 years. The Edge might not be a Lapua, but it is right on it's heels, and for all practical purposes, day in or day out shooting, is less expensive per round for just about the same effect. The critters certainly won't know the difference

I have a 270 Allen Mag which is based off of the RUM case as well. It will pretty easily push the 169gr RBBT ULD out at a snappy 3450fps or the 195gr RBBT ULD out at around 3300fps. The 140gr Accubonds will smoke out there quite a bit faster, just about on the heals of the 55gr from a 22-250. Is it practical, nope, overbore, quite a bit, barrel burner most likely, but who cares I wanted one and I paid the bill, and it is one hell of a rig no two ways about it. The 169gr Wildcats will do to a 150# hog what those 55gr BT from the 22-250 will do to a coyote. IF you want to eat it you aim for the head pure and simple. I did however find that using the old discontinued Nosler 150gr Solid Base at around 3250fps is a marked improvement on that. Those were what I was using as a fire form load and it shot so well I picked up what I could find of them. They will hold around 3-4" at 500yds pretty easily and make one heck of a report when they hit the gong, or a hog for that matter.

Anyway I say pick out what you always wanted and build it. Your only on this ride for a limited time, you have no say when it's all over, and you can't take it with ya, so you might as well go have fun in the meantime.


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## woods (Dec 3, 2011)

Bottomsup said:


> What the heck does that chart show? It even says that if loaded to full ballistic potential which most everyone does that barrel life will be the same regardless of propellant used. Who wants to load a .264 at .22lr velocities and get thousands of rounds of barrel life. I dont think slow burning has anything to do with throat life. Heat and pressure do.


 No the chart says:

(Listed powders chosen by general familiarity, not because they are precisely representative of applicable burning rate - so long as cartridge is loaded to full ballistic potential, barrel life will be similar, regardless of propellant used)

What that means is that the powder listed at the top of the column was chosen as a familiar powder REPRESENTING THAT APPROXIMATE BURNING RATE.

For example

4198 could mean H4198, IMR4198 or N120 (close to the same burn rate)

3031 could also mean Benchmark

4350 could mean H4350, IMR4350, RL17 or 760

H1000 could mean Magnum or RL25

Barrel burners like the 264 win mag or other overbore cases that have a lot of powder capacity to push the bullet down a small bore size, have a lot of powder to burn and that burning will occupy more time at the throat. That is what causes less barrel life.

A barrel/throat life can be measured in seconds. Firing produces a cutting torch flame for milliseconds and more and slower powder spend more time cutting (even an extra millisecond reduces barrel life over the long run)

Nobody suggested to load a 264 with the (for example) 3031 FAMILY of powders. You would get very low velocities and poor loading density. Poor loading density can lead to Secondary Explosion Effects and can be dangerous.

An appropriate powder would seem to be the H1000 or N170 GROUPS. Also RL25, H870 or the new RL33 might be the ticket. Those types of slow burning powder would lead to a load density of 90%+ and give the best velocities and load densities.


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## tallow98 (May 10, 2012)

*6.5 280 ackley improved*

I just built a 6.5 280 ackley improved. Got the barrel from McGowen for the Marlin bolt action (was a 30-06) Buy nosler 280 ackley improved cases, neck them down & load. 120 grain pushing 3200fps. Had the barrel nitrided. A new file will not scratch the barrel. same for inside. The hardening that comes from the nitriding goes 3 microns deep and actually brings FPS up by about 150. No barrel burning.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

Woods, I dont need a reloading lesson. I am well versed with rifles and reloading. I build my own rifles, true my own actions and chamber the barrels. I have been reloading and playing with guns for almost 40 years. Learned from the best in the business such as Ed Shilen, Mobe Renolds, Thomas Gonzales (AKA Speedy). The chart is useless.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

The .264 had its day a long time ago. I shot a lot of deer with it in the early 70's. Ammo got hard to find and someone wanted mine worse than I did so I sold it.

It was suggested that you take a look at the .257 Weatherby Magnum and I'll second or third or fourth that suggestion.

TH


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## peckerwood (Jun 9, 2012)

Get a .260,.270,.280,and 300 mag.Then start getting everything in between.


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