# Venting the Air Bladders on Reds and Drum



## daparson (Dec 4, 2004)

I had a couple of people ask me how to do this - so I thought I would post this information. I by no means an expert - but I have done this successfully on probably the last 20 Bull Reds and Drums I have caught.

Right now the Black Drum Run is on. While at the jetty just a few days ago - I saw numerous drum caught - pictures taken - then dumped back in the water - floating belly up because they did not empty the air bladder.

I thought it would be good to post instructions on how to do this so we can assure the survival rate of these fish. Below are the instructions. What I have found that works great is a Turkey Spice Injector - I bought mine at Academy for $3.50. It works great!

Here are directions:  Venting trapped gases from a fish caught from deep water - Use the largest hypodermic needle you can find (#10 or larger) and remove the plunger. Insert hypodermic needle at a 45 degree angle, under a scale, near the tip of the pectoral fin and squeeze the fish gently. You will hear the trapped gases escaping. Make a needle clearing tool from a piece of stainless leader wire to clear any tissue, etc. from the needle and leave this tool in the needle between uses. Sterilize the needle with iodine or alcohol after use and store it in a safe place. 

Why is this important to me? I learned how to do this after I caught a 40lb drum - I worked him back and forth - let him go - he floated to the top. I pulled up the anchor rope - netted him again - worked him back and forth - released him - he swam down - then floated up again. I tried a third time - same results. I assume he died as the seagulls began to pick him apart. This fish was probably 15 years old or older - and I wasn't able to keep it alive. After that - I learned how to do it - it is simple. But incredibly important. I haven't had a floater since.

Good Luck!


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## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2005)

Mark,

I use a needle used to give cattle an injection. The longer the better and they cost about 65 cents each.


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## NightTrain (May 21, 2004)

Good post,dude!Monster cats that are caught out of deep water sometimes require the same process.Big hyperdermic needles w/o the syringe work great.


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## Cutter (Jun 23, 2004)

Keep it coming preacher. That's good stuff to know.


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## TopRod (Feb 28, 2005)

Very good post Daparson. I think it's always good to do what we can to protect any fish. I'm new to the board so excuse me if I come across the wrong way, that is not my intention. I've caught a few large Drum in shallow water (Less than 6 feet deep). I assume this problem with these fish only happens in deep water. Is that correct? One other question: Have any studies been done on survival of these fish after the bladder has been punctured and the fish released? (anybody?)


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## Arlon (Feb 8, 2005)

Where do you buy "cow" needles?


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## Leo (May 21, 2004)

Obviously it would be impossible to do a study unless the fish were tagged. it is also obvious, at least to me, that a fish that swims away has a much better survival rate than one that is floating belly up. It may not be 100% but it is way higher than 0


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## TopRod (Feb 28, 2005)

I agree with you 100% Leo but I am curious if Parks and Wildlife or someone have done a study on this. Seems like I recall something on this several years ago.


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## Wildman (May 21, 2004)

*Venting*

I would like a study done on this as well. I sure feel allot better when my undersized snaps swim off over the ones that float and flipper eats but this past weekend something happened that scared me. We went fishing in Venice and while the tuna fishing was slow on the lump we dropped some small baits to the bottom for vermillion snapper. In the process we caught several grunts in the 10 to 12 inch range which came up needing a deflate. Well these things looked like great Amberjack or Grouper bait so we gave them a poke and put them in the live well. They would be lively as could be for about 30 minutes and then they all would die. I don't know if it was from the "poke" or if they needed the deep water or something to survive. I sure would hate to know that all the fish I have deflated have swam off looking great and died moments later.


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## Catn' Around (May 21, 2004)

they also have pictures and instructions on how to do this in the texas fish and game hand book. The first time you catch one of those big boys and watch it float off because you cant revive it you will learn how to do it.


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## waterspout (May 21, 2004)

Just make sure its for the right reason. The bladder is inflated. A big black or red drum(at the jetties) will have problems at times because they're tired if you fight them for a long time. you need to work them in the water back and forth for more than a minute or two. Just because they're tired and not wanting to dive or swim doesn't mean you need to stick them. Its not like fishing a rig offshore in a 100 plus foot.


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## Salty Kat (Feb 28, 2005)

Saw this on the other board. Any comments?

Hey all, 
I am a Marine Biologist specializing in Icthyology and I also spend about 100 days a year fishing the Galveston Bay system. The practice of penetrating these fishs' air bladder is ineffective and only damages them more. This practice should only be utilized on offshore fish that have distended air bladders. The deepest part of both jetties is around 70 feet at the end of the north jetty and that depth is not sufficient enough to affect the fishs' blood gas levels. The big drum at the jetties when caught are merely exhausted and if the angler would practice sound fishing techniques most of the fish would survive. When fishing for these large drum use a larger pole so the fight doesn't last too long. Secondly, use circle hooks. The hook the fish in the mouth much more often than not. Last, don't keep the fish out of the water very long. Just long enough for a photo. Upon release hold the fish by the narrow part of the tail, floating normally, and slowly move the fish back and forth in the water until he regains strenght, sometimes this takes upwards of 5 minutes. The reason you see all of the fish floating is because irresponsible anglers are excited and don't spend enough time trying to revive the fish. Hope this info helps. Tight lines and screaming drags to everyone..<">< L8r


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## Robert.Parson (Sep 7, 2004)

I have a question. 
What should I do if I am fishing off the jetty rocks, catch a big drum and and can't get down to the water to revive it ?


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## waterspout (May 21, 2004)

I've never fished the rocks. I've always had boats. Good ? though. Another would be what do the guys on the rocks do even if they're relieving the bladder. Just chunk it back. I don't have that answer. I guess that's where alot of floaters come from. Brings up an interesting point though. I've been told them are slimy rocks that hurt if you fall though. But those on the rock should make an effort in my opinion.


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## TopRod (Feb 28, 2005)

Sure hope this thread doesn't end here. I would really like everyone to know the best thing to do to protect these fish. I looked at the TPW website and couldn't find anything. I'm sure people that target these fish and release them would like to know what's best. If these fish are punctured and they die anyway then maybe people need to find a different way to fish. Just my opinion since these are the main brood fish. I enjoy catching these fish as much as anyone else but normally do it in shallower water and don't really see this problem. I caught a 42 inch drum on light tackle several years ago (12# test line) on a pumkinseed/chartruese tout. This took probably over 10 minutes and another boat took pics afterwards. It did take about 5 minutes to revive and appeared to swim off fine. This was in about 3 feet of water so I'm still confused over is depth the problem or exhaustion. Would appreciate any comments one way or the other.


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

This is what I was told many years ago, maybe right,maybe wrong, but has worked so far. 


usually the eyes give it away. If you drag a fish from 50' of water in seconds he will not be able to swim back down. If the eyes are sticking out any past the head, "bugged out". Then they need to be punched. It is not the "fishs' blood gas levels", it is the pressure. You drug a fish that had aprox 30lbs per square inch, into 15lbs per square inch of pressure. The air exspans(sp) in the bladder, not the blood. Fish do not have nitrogen in their blood. Nitrogen does not disslove into salt water, so the gills do not take it to the blood. So fish do not get the bends, only rapid pressure changes to air bladders. Fish that do not have air bladders you do not have to worry about it.

I would like to add one thing. Bull reds and black drum are tough fish. I have caught them with all kinds of scraps, even caught a few missing parts of tails, hooks coming out of their butt, very few fins. But they could all do one thing, still swim. If the fish can not swim back down then something needs to be done to help it. A small punch wound will not kill a bull red or drum, but floating belly up will.


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## daparson (Dec 4, 2004)

*What to do??????*

I have a retired Marine Biologist in my Church - so after reading what the other biologist said - I thought I would give him a call. He has only been retired 3 years - so not totally out of the loop - his comments were that he thought it was a good idea - and they had practiced puncturing in the past.

However - he also said there may have been new findings - so he would make a few calls and find out. Well - it is 10:00 pm - and he called back tonight - so I am going to do what I have seen in my limited experience works best.

I do think that the depth of water is the key (as Jolly Roger has said). My experience is only in the deep water at the Jetty. We rarely fish in water under 25ft deep.

For several months - all but one of the Bull Reds were worked back and forth for several minutes until I was sure they would swim away. I didn't puncture any of them. One Bull Red I worked for quite a while - he swam down - but popped back up - floated on his back - but I followed him with my eyes and I think (hope) he finally flopped over and swam down.

After I killed that Drum - (that still bothers me) - I remembered a post on another board about deflating the air bladders. I did some research - looked in the parks and wildlife handbook for instructions how - and began the practice.

What I do know is that after catching them - deflating the air bladder - and working them back and forth - though fatigued - they all have swam down - and I have not seen one pop back up again.

I know what happens when they float up - seagulls land next to them - float with them - and peck the belly button/anus (which ever one it is) and then their eyes out.

Sooooooo ..... until I hear a better way - I will continue to deflate their air bladders.

I will be out at the North Jetty tomorrow - launching at the Dike - in a Sea Hunt. I will have on an Aggie Hat. Say hi if we see each other!

Mark


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## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2005)

We catch fish with distended air bladders from the drum hole (SS jetties) all the time during the winter. It's deep there. We puncture the fish as instructed, revive it and release it. That little hole does not hurt the fish. We have caught several fish with healing holes already in them. I can't say it was the same fish we caught but somebody did. What kills most fish is the handling as stated above not this little hole in its side? I too will continue to deflate their air bladders until someone comes up with some thing better. Talking about tagging, does anyone know if the state needs someone to help out in a tagging program for research? I will be glad to help. I know of three people the have already posted in this thread that catch quite a few fish during the year.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

at the POINT black drum tourney I fish every year, TPWD gives us those exact directions posted above via a flyer on how to deflate the fish. The first biologist doesn't know what he's talking about. Using lighter gear and more slowly raising the fish actually helps them. Large gear pulls them up faster and actually makes the problem worse.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

from TPWD's site

*Measuring, Tagging, and Releasing Fish*

*Tips for Releasing Fish*

You manage for the future when you follow these handy tips for releasing fish.

*When practical:*


Quickly play and release fish.
Keep fish in water as much as possible.
Remove hook with pliers or cut line.
Gently place fish back into water.
Revive fish by holding upright in water and moving back and forth, forcing water through gills. 
 *For saltwater fishes only:* The following procedures are not recommended for use with any freshwater fishes.

When releasing fish that cannot right itself or is showing a distended air bladder:


Gently insert a thin point (knife blade, wire, or ice pick) through the side of the fish immediately behind the upper part of the pectoral fin base. This is usually directly below the fourth or fifth spine.
Revive fish as described above.


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## daparson (Dec 4, 2004)

*Just an Update*

We caught about 20 Black Drum (20-52 lbs) yesterday at the Jetty. I vented all of them - but did make some important discoveries.

1) Unless you slide the needle from the "Spice Injector" under a scale - the needle will bend. I found that I could do it if I was careful to slide it under - and almost parallel to the scale - breaking the skin - and then moving it about 45 degrees towards the head - and you will hear the air begin to come out. Also - it helps a bit to gently press the air bladder to get as much air out as you can.

2) Another way is to use an ice pick - but you have to work it in - and then begin to slide it out to see if you have punctured the air bladder - but the ice pic is more substantial - and doesn't bend. What I did to the great big drum we caught - slid in the ice pic to make the original hole through the skin - pulled it out then slid in the "Spice Injector" to vent the air. It worked great.

3) I went to the Feed Store today and picked up an implement used to vaccinate cows. The needle looks much like the "Spice Injector" - but perhaps it is more substantial. I will try it next week when we head out.

4) I also found the spice injectors at Wal Mart - for $1.98. - about half the price I previously paid at Academy.

I will continue to research this and try and find the least intrusive - yet most productive was to vent the Bull Reds and Black Drum caught in deeper water. I by no means am an expert - but will answer any questions I can.

Mark Redd


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

Could someone who does this post some pictures showing exactly where on a red and a drum and a snapper to puncture?


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## daparson (Dec 4, 2004)

*Picture*

There are drawings earlier in this thread - but I thought it might help if I posted a picture of where the area is. Next week when we go out - I will take pictures of an actual deflating. But for now this is the best I have.

The area is basically the same for Bull Reds. I have no experience with Snapper.

The pink area is where I would insert the needle or ice pick. Sliding it underneath the fish scale - until you penetrate the skin. After that - move in at a 45 degree angle for 1 to 1 1/2 deep. If using a needle you will hear the air begin to escape. If using an ice pick - you will have to slowly slide the pic out - but not all the way - to hear the air escape.

Hope this helps.

Mark


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## Melon (Jun 1, 2004)

Great post.


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## fishinfool (Jun 30, 2004)

over the years on the party boats we have caught hundreds of the big black and red drum. the blacks and reds(not tagged) we stick with a small knife and throw back in head first as to rush water over their gills and i have not had one float off yet. we cant exactly move them back in forth since we are about 4' off the water. this past week i saw several float off, even recoverd a few that were floating from other boats in the area. that biologist that said you shouldnt is wrong.. when a fish comes up with its bladder sticking out of its mouth definatly needs to be poked. best of luck MIKE


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## LongRodMaster (Mar 5, 2005)

Jolley said it right. You can also feel a drum and tell its bladder is bloated. They usually make a thumping noise like a croaker that sounds like thumping a hammer on a inflated tire. I have cought hundreds of Red's and Black drum in the ship channel and the jetties. I have seen many of these fish with scars from being aired before. Fish do not get the bends. The air in their bladder expands from lessening of the pressures due to going from say 3 atmospheres to 1. 

My airing tool of choice is a small S/S tube sharpened to a point with a delron handle. It takes about 2 seconds to empty a 40# Drums bladder with it. Me and a friend of mine made them. You can also use a fillet knife. I couldnt stnd to keep a fish out of the water as long as it would take to empty a bladder thru a needle.


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## daparson (Dec 4, 2004)

*More Information Please!!!*



LongRodMaster said:


> My airing tool of choice is a small S/S tube sharpened to a point with a delron handle. It takes about 2 seconds to empty a 40# Drums bladder with it. Me and a friend of mine made them. You can also use a fillet knife. I couldnt stnd to keep a fish out of the water as long as it would take to empty a bladder thru a needle.


 What size stainless tubing? How do you make the handle? And do you use it in the manner I described above - the same as using a needle?

I am all for learning better ways! Thanks in advance for the information!

Mark


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## LongRodMaster (Mar 5, 2005)

1/4" SS tube cut at one end to a 45 angle then sharpenedto make a clean cut. The handle is made of delron and we made them on a lathe with 2 set screws to hold it inplace. Could also just epoxy it. As a substitute you could use a piece of a broom handle or a hanger rod like they have for clossets. Just make sure the tube sticks out the back end for the air to escape.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

TopRod said:


> I agree with you 100% Leo but I am curious if Parks and Wildlife or someone have done a study on this. Seems like I recall something on this several years ago.


They were the ones that came up with this procedure two decades ago.


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## Redfishr (Jul 26, 2004)

The marine biologist that said it was the wrong thing to do, hasnt fished for big drum much.
They will float belly up till dead.


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## daparson (Dec 4, 2004)

*Photo of Venting*

While out fishing Thursday - we took a couple of pics of a drum while we were venting him.

Again - using a spice injector - we slid it horizontally under his scales until it broke the skin - then at about a 45 degree angle - slid it in until it punctured the air bladder. You could hear the air escape through the empty injector.

Additionally - we pressed gently to make sure as much air was out as possible.

Hope this helps.

Mark Redd

PS: I received two PDF files from a biologist at Texas Parks and Wildlife about venting. His email said, _"Here are a couple of publications that describe the technique for deflating the air bladder, sometimes referred to as "venting", in fish. Some states don't recommend doing this stating that given enough time, the fish will naturally expel the excess gas in the air bladder and will recover and that there is a greater risk of damaging other organs in the fish. This does render the fish vulnerable to predation until it can regain the ability to swim down. Texas recommends venting as a way to increase the chances of survival of fish with distended stomachs due to the expansion of the air bladder."

_If you would like a copy of the files he sent - email me at [email protected] and I will send them to you. Thanks!


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## SEAHUNT186 (Dec 24, 2004)

Great pic Daparson of the venting procedure. I'm going to try that this weekend. The Red I caught last time out didn't require it. I guess because it was caught in pretty shallow water. Around 15 feet.


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## waterspout (May 21, 2004)

Great illustration!


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## confederate_surfer (Mar 28, 2005)

if you dont deflate them though they sit on the top and die


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