# .223 assistance w/ Barnes 55 gr



## JDog

Ok, my .300 WM project is on hold until I get a new capping rod. So now it's on to my .223. I have some .55gr Barnes TSX. Powders I have are Varget and H4895. But of course neither are listed on Barnes' site. I have emails out to both Barnes and Hodgdon but no reply yet. I've had fantastic results with Varget and 55gr Vmax bullets so I'm leaning towards trying that one first. But I've read that I can't use normal jacketed bullet load data with Barnes bullets. Soooooooo, what can I do here?

My Lyman manual has Varget at 23.0 - 27.8c for 55gr jacketed bullets. Should I decrease the load data by 10% (21-25)? Or do I really need to wait to hear back from Barnes or Hodgdon on this ? Or will the 55gr jacketed load data be fine?


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## RobaloSunrise

I would drop it 10% and start from there.


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## twang56

*barnes bullets*

Barnes list 23.5 - 25.5 for the 62 gr. TSX using Varget. TAC is listed 1 gr less on both start and max and TAC for a 55 gr Barnes is on .5 gr more then i would suggest that 22.5 Varget should be a save starting load.

After some load testing my 1-8 likes 23.5 best using Rem 7.5 primer. Just as Barnes suggest, seat them deeper. It took me a while to get the dept right. My OAL is 2.238 for the 62 gr out of an AR. It was amazing to see the group shrink the deeper i set them. When they went sub-MOA I starting having visions of dead pigs!


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## Capt. Hollis Forrester

Bump that load down 1 grain, and oal to 2.25. Start from there, and check your primers out for mis alignment after fireing. If your using mil spec brass you have to be careful on pressure issues, but winchester or rem brass you'll be fine with the load.


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## JDog

*Range Report*

Well the results with the Barnes 55gr TSX were less than pleasing. For charges from 22.5-25.5 the groups were 1.18" - 1.7". I had one group that had four within .6" and then one flyer that took it out to 1.4". My COAL is 2.180 as the Barnes data online recommends.

So I'm at a cross roads. Do I:
A - Seat the bullet deeper? and re-load 25 bullets across all charges? (sounds expensive. And how deep would make sense anb be safe?)
B - reload 10 bullets of the charge that had the flyer and hope I just yanked it even though I don't recall pulling the shot?
C - Switch from Varget to H335 and start all over since H335 is the powder that Barnes recommends as their accuracy load?

Barnes' test gun is a 1/12" twist and mine is a 1/8" in case that has any relevance. This is also for an AR so I'm assuming I can't get to the lands if I tried, and it seems that Barnes and everyone recommends deep seating TSX bullets anyway.

Any opinions for my next steps would be appreciated.


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## RobaloSunrise

To start with, do you have a chrony? If not get one, they are invaluable. Then work on you loads to get the desired velocity and ES/ED then work on your seating depth. Now to work on your problem. Were the groups stretched up and down or left to right?


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## JDog

*More details*

I don't have a chrony. But would like to learn more about how exactly they'll help as I just don't quite have my mind wrapped around that yet.

As far as vertical versus horizontal shot dispersal, here are some numbers:

G= group size, 5-shots

22.5 G-1.51, H.97, V1.47
23.0 G-1.73, H1.55, V1.14
23.5 G-1.18, H.93, V1.17
24.0 G-1.43 H.44, V1.38 *W/o the flyer this was a .62' group
24.5 G-1.50, H.73, V1.41
25.0 G2.04, H1.99, V.92
25.5 G1.30, H.92, V1.25

So I'd say they're definitely strung out more vertically. (I'm curious to see where this is going!)


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## Ernest

Switch to H335 or N135. Particularly, if you are seating them relatively deep. Faster powder. H4895 may burn in that same basic range, so if you have that on hand, give that a try. But, I don't shoot H4895, so thats just a guess.


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## CHARLIE

Well it seems that the Barnes bullets are super hard to get along with regarding accuracy. My best load was best I recall was 25.3 or 23.5 gr of H4895 with the 53 gr bullet. My data is downstairs. Bullet seating depth is critical and your twist rate should be fine. Yes Barnes does list the H4895 in their listings well with 53 Gr bullet anyway. They list that powder as their most accurate round. I have tried many different powders such as Varget, H335, BAL-C, and the 4895 did better in my gun..


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## JDog

CHARLIE said:


> Well it seems that the Barnes bullets are super hard to get along with regarding accuracy. My best load was best I recall was 25.3 or 23.5 gr of H4895 with the 53 gr bullet. My data is downstairs. Bullet seating depth is critical and your twist rate should be fine. Yes Barnes does list the H4895 in their listings well with 53 Gr bullet anyway. They list that powder as their most accurate round. I have tried many different powders such as Varget, H335, BAL-C, and the 4895 did better in my gun..


Regarding bullet seating depth, for "traditional" bullets I've read that you first want to find the right powder THEN start messing with the seating depth to try and really dial it in. Does this approach still apply for Barnes bullets? i.e. since I haven't been able to shoot a good group with Varget should I just change powders? I shoot Vmax's too and they LOVE 25.5 grains of Varget so I'm not married to Varget for this load. I just don't want to be using up components if my initial results are indicating Varget is not the right powder for this load. (I'm just not 100% sure I can say that yet!)


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## CHARLIE

Good question but I think that is why did he chicken cross the road. I think seating depth would be consistant with all powders. Best depth should apply to all powders but there are probably arguements against that too. Good luck and another note. My gun still doesent shoot Barnes too well.. My twist rate is not correct 1X12 wish I had 1X8 or 9


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## Bantam1

I just read an article that stated these types of round like more jump? Well actually I just skimmed through it. I want to play around with the 70 grain but I have been holding off. Maybe later this year when I build a new upper.


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## THE JAMMER

Just buy a pound of VV-135 at 10x and stop screwing around. Shoots xxx sub moa in my 20" bbl 1x9 colt and my 16" bbl 1x9 stag.

Have some moa loads for 55 fmj using 25 and 25.5 gr of varget. Couldn't get it to shoot my xxx's though.


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## twang56

*curious*

If the max bullet length to fit an AR15 magazine is 2.26 and at that length there is no chance of touching the lands, have you tried any between your 2.180 and the 2.26 max?


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## RobaloSunrise

What is your accuracy goal? There are a few good ideas on here and most of the guys can help here and there but I need to know what you are wanting out of it in order to help you. A chrony will help you to develop a load which holds a velocity I.e. al rounds will travel near the same speed. This just doesn't happen cause you think you put the same amount of powder in each hull. If you just want to plink at 100 yds then minute of angle is plenty. If you are wanting to shoot coyotes then minute of dog is fine. If you want to stretch it out and shoot 600 meters then you need to do a lot more prep. PM me you number and I can relate what it takes to shoot long distances.


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## JDog

RobaloSunrise said:


> What is your accuracy goal? There are a few good ideas on here and most of the guys can help here and there but I need to know what you are wanting out of it in order to help you. A chrony will help you to develop a load which holds a velocity I.e. al rounds will travel near the same speed. This just doesn't happen cause you think you put the same amount of powder in each hull. If you just want to plink at 100 yds then minute of angle is plenty. If you are wanting to shoot coyotes then minute of dog is fine. If you want to stretch it out and shoot 600 meters then you need to do a lot more prep. PM me you number and I can relate what it takes to shoot long distances.


I'd like to get this to a sub MOA load so that I can hunt yotes, pigs and deer with this. I want that level of accuracy so that if I hunt deer with it I'll be comfortable with neck shots. For piggies, behind the ear shots. Yotes to 200, deer/hogs within 100. Well definitely deer within 100.

So I'm pretty close now.

Barnes did write back and said to use the 53gr data for Varget for my 55gr bullet. This would mean I have not tried 26.0, and 26.5. My primers were starting to flatten at 25.5 so I'm not too keen to go to 26.0 or 26.5 though. I think I will load up my last 15 bullets around the 24.0 range (that shot four into .62) and see how that goes.


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## JDog

THE JAMMER said:


> Just buy a pound of VV-135 at 10x and stop screwing around. Shoots xxx sub moa in my 20" bbl 1x9 colt and my 16" bbl 1x9 stag.
> 
> Have some moa loads for 55 fmj using 25 and 25.5 gr of varget. Couldn't get it to shoot my xxx's though.


I may end up there. But I want to give the 24.0 charge a run. I coudlnt' find any barnes reload data for VV-N135 (That's what you used right?). I only just started looking.

Did you try H335 which Barnes indicates as the accuracy load on their site? If so, any luck? I think I read your 55gr thread but I'll re-read it now.


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## RobaloSunrise

What are weapon are you shooting?


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## JDog

*Rifle*

RRA 18" heavy match barrel 1/8"

Rifle has proven capable on VMax's.


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## RobaloSunrise

The reason behind seeing which way your groups are moving is you can tell to a certain degree what is going on with your loads. Vertical spread shows a lack of velocity control, horizontal shows that the wind is coming into play. As the velocity moves up and down it will change the harmonics of the barrel which will cause your vertical spread to start to wander left and right at times. Looking at the target grouping can also show you if you are flinching or jerking. Happens to everyone. Jerking is normally high right and flinching is low left I think, it's been a long time since I needed that piece of info and it isn't really clear in my mind. Sounds like you probably moved your POI a bit on the one load to cause a flyer. If you have a group with a flyer try that one again. Unexplained flyers happen all the time. A inaccurate load will have spacing all over not on just one shot.


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## JDog

twang56 said:


> If the max bullet length to fit an AR15 magazine is 2.26 and at that length there is no chance of touching the lands, have you tried any between your 2.180 and the 2.26 max?


Not yet. Maybe with my final 15 from the original box of bullets I should try that. I just read about your experience with a 62gr TSX in your RRA. Did you end up going shorter, or longer than the Barnes recomendations?


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## RobaloSunrise

Are you running the factory trigger? What is the pull like?


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## JDog

RobaloSunrise said:


> The reason behind seeing which way your groups are moving is you can tell to a certain degree what is going on with your loads. Vertical spread shows a lack of velocity control, horizontal shows that the wind is coming into play. As the velocity moves up and down it will change the harmonics of the barrel which will cause your vertical spread to start to wander left and right at times. Looking at the target grouping can also show you if you are flinching or jerking. Happens to everyone. Jerking is normally high right and flinching is low left I think, it's been a long time since I needed that piece of info and it isn't really clear in my mind. Sounds like you probably moved your POI a bit on the one load to cause a flyer. If you have a group with a flyer try that one again. Unexplained flyers happen all the time. A inaccurate load will have spacing all over not on just one shot.


Fantastic feedback! Thanks! Yeah, I have one 5-shot group that is .6 with one flyer so I'll try that again.


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## JDog

RobaloSunrise said:


> Are you running the factory trigger? What is the pull like?


It's the national match trigger (I think that's what RRA calls it). It's a pretty good trigger and I've shot several groups in the .6 to .7 range with my Vmax reloads. I think I had a 10 shot .7 with my Vmax so the rifle is pretty dang accurate.


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## JDog

*picture*



RobaloSunrise said:


> The reason behind seeing which way your groups are moving is you can tell to a certain degree what is going on with your loads. Vertical spread shows a lack of velocity control, horizontal shows that the wind is coming into play. As the velocity moves up and down it will change the harmonics of the barrel which will cause your vertical spread to start to wander left and right at times. Looking at the target grouping can also show you if you are flinching or jerking. Happens to everyone. Jerking is normally high right and flinching is low left I think, it's been a long time since I needed that piece of info and it isn't really clear in my mind. Sounds like you probably moved your POI a bit on the one load to cause a flyer. If you have a group with a flyer try that one again. Unexplained flyers happen all the time. A inaccurate load will have spacing all over not on just one shot.


Here's the group with the flyer.


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## RobaloSunrise

And that's where the chrony comes in. I would lean towards a pulled shot but with a chrony you would be able to make sure it wasn't some weird velocity thing.


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## RobaloSunrise

There are numerous aspects of reloading that can cause inaccuracies and unless you are shooting at long ranges or just want to expend the energy they aren't worth going into in detail. The best advice I can give is find a bullet and load you can live with and run with it. Otherwise this stuff will drive you mad. I used to load for long distance competition and it is not for the lazy. If you are extremely anal retentive and have and unrelenting attention to detail you may enjoy it. But it sounds as if you already have a load that's minute of dog accurate. As a side note and don't take anything i say here as against you or anything else but I don't shoot for the head only because too many factors can cause a miss from the animal or you flinching to and unseen wind. Therefore minute of angle is good for me to hunt with.


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## Bantam1

Hey RS I have a question for you about chrono data. Maybe I should start a new thread... anyways I have had some very impressive groups with high ES/SD numbers. Then I have had some really poor groups with super low ES/SD numbers. Now I know you want the loads to be as consistent as possible for velocity but sometimes what prints on the paper conflicts with the chrono numbers. Any experience you can share about this? 

I know all about being anal with my reloading. My friends laugh at me when I spend hours in the garage prepping brass and handloading to perfection. Then they whine when my rifle is more "accurate" than theirs. I take my long range shooting seriously but I do not shoot in any competitions.


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## THE JAMMER

JDog said:


> I'd like to get this to a sub MOA load so that I can hunt yotes, pigs and deer with this. I want that level of accuracy so that if I hunt deer with it I'll be comfortable with neck shots. For piggies, behind the ear shots. Yotes to 200, deer/hogs within 100. Well definitely deer within 100.
> 
> So I'm pretty close now.
> 
> Barnes did write back and said to use the 53gr data for Varget for my 55gr bullet. This would mean I have not tried 26.0, and 26.5. My primers were starting to flatten at 25.5 so I'm not too keen to go to 26.0 or 26.5 though. I think I will load up my last 15 bullets around the 24.0 range (that shot four into .62) and see how that goes.


Sorry didn't know you were a "neck shooter." No more help from me.


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## RobaloSunrise

Yes my experience is that velocity is only one aspect of it. When you start stretching the range out it becomes more important, however so is bullet weight, bearing surface, meplat size, brass prep, adnauseum.


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## shallowminded

Don't forget temperature.


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## RobaloSunrise

That's where the adnaseum came in.


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## twang56

*JDog*

Sounds like we have the same gun. 18" RR HVY VARMINTER, 1:8. My 62 gr Barnes shoots in the .3xxx and the same load in a 16" Predator Pursuit lands in the .5xxx. Got lucky on the second gun grouping. OAL is 2.238, 23.5 Varget, Rem 7.5, Rem Nickle (new), primer hole uniformed and run sizer ball in neck prior to charging. I weigh each charge. I don't use a chronograph. From what i have read in this thread i probably need to get one and experiment. I guess i have been lucky getting my groups. I also load 65 gr Gamekings that are truly one hole accurate. 24 grs Varget and same 2.238 OAL. Each gun has its own personality but from my limited experience with RRs and wylde chambers, they are very consistent. I hope you can find some of this helpful.


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## RobaloSunrise

Here are a couple of good spots for long range shooting. Accurateshooter.com deals with long range competition and appliedballistics.com is full of info about external ballistics.


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## JDog

THE JAMMER said:


> Sorry didn't know you were a "neck shooter." No more help from me.


Well I respect your conviction to your principles!


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## JDog

twang56 said:


> Sounds like we have the same gun. 18" RR HVY VARMINTER, 1:8. My 62 gr Barnes shoots in the .3xxx and the same load in a 16" Predator Pursuit lands in the .5xxx. Got lucky on the second gun grouping. OAL is 2.238, 23.5 Varget, Rem 7.5, Rem Nickle (new), primer hole uniformed and run sizer ball in neck prior to charging. I weigh each charge. I don't use a chronograph. From what i have read in this thread i probably need to get one and experiment. I guess i have been lucky getting my groups. I also load 65 gr Gamekings that are truly one hole accurate. 24 grs Varget and same 2.238 OAL. Each gun has its own personality but from my limited experience with RRs and wylde chambers, they are very consistent. I hope you can find some of this helpful.


Thanks for this Twang! Like I said, I saw your previous posts and thought we could be using similar weapons. I've read that Varget works well with the heavier bullets (even though my 55 grain vmax loads with it are just plain nasty) so I may just buy some 62 grainers after I try my last pass at these 55's.


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## JDog

twang56 said:


> Sounds like we have the same gun. 18" RR HVY VARMINTER, 1:8. My 62 gr Barnes shoots in the .3xxx and the same load in a 16" Predator Pursuit lands in the .5xxx. Got lucky on the second gun grouping. OAL is 2.238, 23.5 Varget, Rem 7.5, Rem Nickle (new), primer hole uniformed and run sizer ball in neck prior to charging. I weigh each charge. I don't use a chronograph. From what i have read in this thread i probably need to get one and experiment. I guess i have been lucky getting my groups. I also load 65 gr Gamekings that are truly one hole accurate. 24 grs Varget and same 2.238 OAL. Each gun has its own personality but from my limited experience with RRs and wylde chambers, they are very consistent. I hope you can find some of this helpful.


One more clarification Twang. Are you saying that you're only neck sizing your brass for an AR? I'm not quite clear on the sizing ball comment. I'm full length sizing the brass and de-fouling the primer pocket as pretty much my only case prep. And trimming to 1.750 if needed. When I did my loads I used the same brass head stamp for all (hornady once fired) and tried to group brass that was within .001" of an inch with the same charge.


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## RobaloSunrise

Here is a great article on case prep Jdog. I hope you've got some serious anal qualities to you. http://www.6mmbr.com/jgcaseprep.html


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## twang56

*JDog*

I basically use NEW brass and and run them up into the full length sizer that is adjusted so only the neck ball goes in and out of the mouth/neck to round it out. I save my brass and at some point i will have to reload them and find out if i need to tweak the charge for fired cases. I don't shoot thousands of rounds like some but i buy in bulk to get the price break. On the 55 gr bullets and Varget, i shoot NOS BT 55 with 24gr with 7.5 rem primer in the 16" and 25.3gr with CCI 400 primers in the 18". Just for giggles i switched them for some test shots and they there was very little difference in group size. I think the powder variance is totally due to the different primers. NOS BT all shoot in the .4xx-.52 I know there are other powders that may be better but i wanted to use what i had. TAC and 335 are supposed to be really good too but i currently do not have either.


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## RobaloSunrise

JDog, here is a little tidbit I got from one of my favorite precision sites on the 223.

Reloading for AR15s and other .223 Rem Gas Guns
With their multiple bolt lugs and rapid locking/unlocking, AR15s are more sensitive to pressure and bolt thrust issues than stout, modern custom bolt actions. There is also a risk of slam-fires in AR15s. Therefore, some high-end loads that may work in a BAT, Barnard, Borden or Stiller bolt action will be too hot for an AR15. This is why Sierra issues a completely separate load map for AR15s chambered in .223 Rem and 5.56

Powders
The .223 Remington is a reloader’s dream. Not finicky, it shoots well with a wide variety of powders, both extruded (stick) and granular (ball). Ask a dozen .223 shooters and you’ll probably get a dozen different powder recommendations. For the lighter bullets, H335 ball powder is a proven performer, and N133 shows outstanding accuracy. For 55gr to 60gr bullets, Benchmark, TAC, H4895, and AA2015 are excellent choices. For the 69gr and 77gr SMK, Sierra recommends VV N540 and N140 respectively. Finally, for the heaviest bullets, in the 80-90gr range, good choices include Reloader 15, VV N140, N550, and Varget. But there are many other good combinations. If you need a single, do-it-all powder for your .223 Rem loads, H4895, AA 2015, and TAC are all versatile and cost-effective. If you’re loading with a progressive press, you’ll find that ball powders such as H335, BLC-2, and TAC meter best.


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## JDog

*Success!*



twang56 said:


> Sounds like we have the same gun. 18" RR HVY VARMINTER, 1:8. My 62 gr Barnes shoots in the .3xxx and the same load in a 16" Predator Pursuit lands in the .5xxx. Got lucky on the second gun grouping. OAL is 2.238, 23.5 Varget, Rem 7.5, Rem Nickle (new), primer hole uniformed and run sizer ball in neck prior to charging. I weigh each charge. I don't use a chronograph. From what i have read in this thread i probably need to get one and experiment. I guess i have been lucky getting my groups. I also load 65 gr Gamekings that are truly one hole accurate. 24 grs Varget and same 2.238 OAL. Each gun has its own personality but from my limited experience with RRs and wylde chambers, they are very consistent. I hope you can find some of this helpful.


So I finally got back to this project. I used your OAL Twang and worked up the load. At 25.0 of Varget I got 4 shots in .47" and the fifth opened it up to .85. This is with the 62 gr Barnes tsx. I will be hunting with these this year! 23.5 grains got me a .98. It looks good too. It was breezy today so I think I could do better with either charge but four in .47 makes me like the hotter charge more! all the groups seemed to be tighter than with the 55gr Barnes .

Thanks to everyone for all the help!


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## twang56

*Jdog*

Glad you found a load you like. I have ofter wondered if 1:8 may need a longer bullet to really stabilize for good groups. Sounds like some good new powders out there now but i have not had time to try them yet. Good shooting !


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