# matagorda ducks question



## redbuck (Apr 23, 2007)

Does anyone know if duck hunting is allowed at the lake on the left hand side of the ICW as you head from the harbor and just before big boggy cut? What is the name of that lake? Is it a WMA?


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## Instigator (Jul 6, 2004)

Silence. Must be a good spot!


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

It's located at...

28°44'08.26"N, 95°50'36.70"W

None of my charts show a name for that body of water.

It is not in a state WMA nor in the Big Boggy National Wildlife Refuge.

Therefore, the land around it is private, probably owned by a large ranch. I don't know who owns it, or if the land around it might be leased out for hunting. 

Since there is a navigable channel running into it, and it's not a WMA, NWR or incorporated community, then it should be public waters. 

That being the case, you should be able to hunt there, but you can't step out on land. Likewise you don't want to hunt next to land where you might drop a bird on private property. That puts you in a situation where there is no legal escape. If you retrieve the bird, which includes sending a dog in to get it, you can be nailed for trespassing. If you don't go after it, you can be ticketed for wanton waste. That's why you need hunt well away from the shoreline.


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## Salty Dog (Jan 29, 2005)

Good luck getting in and out of there. Lots of shell.


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## txsnows (Jul 24, 2008)

The property is part of the Bare Ranch and is private it is leased by the Matagorda Rod and Gun Club.


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

txsnows said:


> The property is leased by the Matagorda Rod and Gun Club.


http://www.matagordahuntingclub.com/



> It's part of the Bare Ranch


I hear you have to hunt in the nude there.


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## 3rdcst (Jun 16, 2009)

The link ia incorrect.It is the Matagorda Rod and Gun club.Not the Matagorda Hunting Club.It acyually spelled Bair.


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## marksmu (Dec 4, 2008)

Looking at the google map from the coordinates it, it appears to be navigable water...clearly influenced by the tides...I dont see how the water itself can be private....

Not that I would want to be the one testing this...but I would say legally they cannot lay claim to the water...just the land around it.


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## trim change (Apr 29, 2005)

It is the Baer Ranch, and it is leased by the Matagorda Rod and Gun Club. Most of the previous statements are correct, you can hunt it provided that you or your dog never touch land or bottom of the lake. This make it pretty much un-huntable.


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## AvianQuest (Feb 7, 2006)

trim change said:


> you can hunt it provided that you or your dog never touch land or bottom of the lake. This make it pretty much un-huntable.


As long as it's navigable waters that you can enter from public waters, then that water body is public waters.

While you can't set foot on land, you can wade fish or otherwise walk on the bottom as it is public as well.

There are a few exceptions where a stream, river or creek can be navigated, but is held as private waters including the bottom of said stream, is where the stream originates, flows through, and terminates into a public water body all on one property. These exceptions are very rare and occur in the Hill County.


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## Salty Dog (Jan 29, 2005)

Have any of you actually been in there? I have. I'd love to see ya'll try to get your boat in there, first of all, and then try to wade in it. 

But whatever... Some folks have to learn the hard way.


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## txsnows (Jul 24, 2008)

Yea i would like to see some one wade it. The water may be public but the mud is private ( the owner pays taxes on it and it is leased ) therfore if you anchor then you will be trespassing and i dont think you can duck hunt out of a boat that is not anchored.


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## txshockwave (Mar 6, 2007)

they dont own the bottom if it is a navigable water way. The state of Texas owns the bottom.


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## plgorman (Jan 10, 2008)

Salty Dog said:


> Have any of you actually been in there? I have. I'd love to see ya'll try to get your boat in there, first of all, and then try to wade in it.
> 
> But whatever... Some folks have to learn the hard way.


Dog, Let them learn the hard way, at least that will be one more day they arent running around bothering one of us that has done the scouting and put in the work to find a productive spot instead of pulling the old e-scouting routine.



txsnows said:


> Yea i would like to see some one wade it. The water may be public but the mud is private ( the owner pays taxes on it and it is leased ) therfore if you anchor then you will be trespassing and i dont think you can duck hunt out of a boat that is not anchored.


No one owns the bottom or 'mud' of a navigable waterway bud.


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## mapman (Nov 8, 2005)

*Bottom*

According to a game warden in Rockport, Ithe bottom of a creek or lake is owned by the surrounding land owners. This has been the law since the Spanish Land Grants during the early years of Texas.


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## plgorman (Jan 10, 2008)

What if that waterway is a boundary between two pieces of land, as is the case about 75% of the time on the tx coast


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## ininches (Jul 13, 2009)

txsnows said:


> Yea i would like to see some one wade it. The water may be public but the mud is private ( the owner pays taxes on it and it is leased ) therfore if you anchor then you will be trespassing and i dont think you can duck hunt out of a boat that is not anchored.


the bottom is not private if its a navigable waterway...i cant believe what some people try to write on here...haha

and FYI....it is legal to hunt out of an un-anchored boat as well as long as it is not being powered


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## rat race (Aug 10, 2006)

We own land on a river in Milam county and our property line extends to the middle of the river. Thus we own 1/2 the land that makes up the river (our portion). However while water is covering it it becomes public domain. Meaning we have no right to restrict access. Should the river ever dry up then it becomes privet property. I know this because we went to court with some other landowners a few years back over an easement. 

As for stepping foot on land while hunting, there is a thing called wantin waste. This states that an attempt must be made to retrieve any bird that is shot down. You can use this to argue against trespassing onto someone's land but it will be up to the judge.


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

The wanton waste rule doesnt give you the right to trespass.


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## rat race (Aug 10, 2006)

I am not saying that it does, but it does give you just cause. You are legally required to retrieve your game. Again it all depends on the judge.

RR


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

mapman said:


> According to a game warden in Rockport, Ithe bottom of a creek or lake is owned by the surrounding land owners. This has been the law since the Spanish Land Grants during the early years of Texas.


Either you are making this up, or it lost a LOT in translation, or that's an ignorant GW right there. As AQ pointed out, the state of Texas owns the bottom. Where this is NOT true (it does indeed flow from old Spanish Land Grants in cases where the land has never changed ownership) it is understood to relating to mineral rights.

You may step out on any land that is routinely covered and uncovered by normal fluctuations in water, whether it happens to be covered at the time or not. The public may enjoy, for legal purposes, all shoreline and land below the "fast bank" of a navigable waterway. This is the law. It has been upheld. However it is largely misunderstood and misrepresented by possum cops and hick JPs who are allied with landowners. Also, in many cases, it's difficult to determine where the fast bank is and where the "uplands" (where you may NOT trespass) begin. A lot of "rules of thumb" have been used, including, in the water, the vegetation line, the high tide line, etc.

It is NOT an offense under the wanton waste clause to fail to retrieve game when to do so you would have to trespass. HOWEVER if you set up in such a manner and choose shots in such a manner as that they are likely to end up unretrievable for any reason you MAY be ticketed for wanton waste and it will often be upheld in court.


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

We asked the game warden about that and he told us you will be ticketed for trespassing unless you ask permission to cross the property line. I was also told that if the land owner was being extra chitty he could have you ticketed for sending your dog across the property line.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

chuck leaman said:


> We asked the game warden about that and he told us you will be ticketed for trespassing unless you ask permission to cross the property line. I was also told that if the land owner was being extra chitty he could have you ticketed for sending your dog across the property line.


First example he's right. Second example, he may be right but I think you could beat it easily in court. 
Either way if you decide to trespass to retrieve game leave the gun behind. Possessing a weapon while trespassing raises the stakes.


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## Cbhs20 (Dec 11, 2007)

anyone who wants to act like they know exactly what the law is on navigable waters is blowing smoke. I can easily get my boat into some saltwater tributaries around westbay, and have spent time on the phone talking to the gamewarden after the land owner told me it was private land. THe GW jim bob van **** tells me the land under the water is private and I can't hunt there. whether he's right or wrong in yalls opinion he's the GW and its all up to him. Best advice is contact the GW and see what he says then if you disagree then decide if its worth it yo fight good luck


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## chuck leaman (Jul 15, 2004)

I always tell folks that feel the urge to cross the property line to leave the gun behind. As far as the dog deal goes you could plead that the dog took off on his own which may work unless you were seen sending him by the other properties owner. Ive never had a land owner tell me no when I asked them to cross the property line to retrieve a bird.They really liked the fact that I asked em and it usually resulted in permission to do so all the time.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Cbhs20 said:


> anyone who wants to act like they know exactly what the law is on navigable waters is blowing smoke. I can easily get my boat into some saltwater tributaries around westbay, and have spent time on the phone talking to the gamewarden after the land owner told me it was private land. THe GW jim bob van **** tells me the land under the water is private and I can't hunt there. whether he's right or wrong in yalls opinion he's the GW and its all up to him. Best advice is contact the GW and see what he says then if you disagree then decide if its worth it yo fight good luck


No, they aren't. Sorry you had the problem with ol Jimbob. I don't know him, sounds like "pet game warden" syndrome to me. He may have a cushy deal for hunting rights on those properties. Or not. Some waterways could be in city limits or have no hunting restrictions per a navigation district. Regardless, it isn't up to the GW. It's up to the legislature and the courts and I'm personally tired of uninformed or corrupt GWs denying citizens their rightful and legal access to coastal areas.

Contacting a local GW IS a good idea. But if they don't care to understand the law correctly, I'm willing to get the ticket and go to court.


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## El Capitan de No Fish (Sep 20, 2007)

In other words, I'd find another spot.


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## plgorman (Jan 10, 2008)

conditioner is better


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## SoDak Hunter (Sep 23, 2009)

I haven't done much hunting in TX so I am not clear on the regulations. I grew up in SD and it is legal to retrieve game that was legally shot on your land/public land from land you do not have permission on as long as you do not go on that land with a firearm. Just a different perspective from a newbie with no greenies.


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## plgorman (Jan 10, 2008)

Texas is better than SD and we have a whole diff set of laws NEWBIE!!!

jk bro


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## coastal76 (Sep 4, 2008)

This is a problem i have been dealing with here in Seadrift.I have been to the Land office ,tax Office and talked to several GW's...Just because it is navigable by boat does not mean it is not owned by an individual land owner.You can fish from a boat with lures and corks but using a weight on bottom is Trespassing.If you discharge a firearm on the water that some one is paying taxes on...YOU ARE TRESPASSING BY PROJECTILE.New Law that went into affect a few years ago.Keeps hunters off the marshes that are owned by private land owners.I have been run out of places that we hunted when we were kids.They will and can take you to court.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

coastal76 said:


> This is a problem i have been dealing with here in Seadrift.I have been to the Land office ,tax Office and talked to several GW's...Just because it is navigable by boat does not mean it is not owned by an individual land owner.You can fish from a boat with lures and corks but using a weight on bottom is Trespassing.If you discharge a firearm on the water that some one is paying taxes on...YOU ARE TRESPASSING BY PROJECTILE.New Law that went into affect a few years ago.Keeps hunters off the marshes that are owned by private land owners.I have been run out of places that we hunted when we were kids.They will and can take you to court.


You have been looking for love in all the wrong places. If it is truly navigable that is all horse manure. If you can get a boat (other than airboat) up them they are navigable. Including a kayak.

The state of Texas owns ALL the navigable waterways and the bottom underneath them.

Trespassing by projectile hahahaha. That's a good one. You CAN be cited for trespassing if you fire a bullet or shotgun pellets over a property line. That is the new law.

If Game Wardens around Seadrift are in on this scam it is bordering on Offical Oppression and they need to have a damned good dose of the Texas Rangers on their butts.


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## huntvizsla (Dec 31, 2006)

Someone should tell the ducks they are trespassing and need to move on to public land


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## eastmatty (Aug 3, 2008)

Sounds like you are refering to the area known as Boggy Flats. Shallow and very difficult to get anything but an airboat into. As far as the game warden issue, call Clay Shock (local warden in Bay City) and ask him about ownership/tresspassing in that area.


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## Cbhs20 (Dec 11, 2007)

huntvizsla said:


> Someone should tell the ducks they are trespassing and need to move on to public land


wouldn't that make things for you and me a whole lot easier :cheers:


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## coastal76 (Sep 4, 2008)

Talking about Grass Point surrounded by Guadalupe,San Anton,and Hines bay.Chris Kelly has the entire marsh leased.Including lakes that are wide open into the bays.It is owned by Caroline Nagley.If you go into these lakes and fire a few rounds an airboat with security will pay you a visit.


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## ONDABORDER (Sep 23, 2009)

Welcome SoDak Hunter - glad to have your view on South Dakota law.


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## hoser76 (Oct 29, 2008)

plgorman said:


> Texas is better than SD and we have a whole diff set of laws NEWBIE!!!
> 
> jk bro


 I agree Texas is better than any other state, but there is no reason to bust some guy's balls cause he is new to the sight. Maybe the guy loves fishing and hunting like the rest of us but does not have as much time as you to post between classes.


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## plgorman (Jan 10, 2008)

Hoser apparently you arent familiar with the acronym 'jk'. Lighten up broseph...


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

coastal76 said:


> Talking about Grass Point surrounded by Guadalupe,San Anton,and Hines bay.Chris Kelly has the entire marsh leased.Including lakes that are wide open into the bays.It is owned by Caroline Nagley.If you go into these lakes and fire a few rounds an airboat with security will pay you a visit.


Thanks, Coastal. I'll try to make a point of it. Here is the applicable statute, which has been upheld several times in case law:

NATURAL RESOURCES CODE
TITLE 2. PUBLIC DOMAIN
SUBTITLE A. GENERAL PROVISIONS
CHAPTER 11. PROVISIONS GENERALLY APPLICABLE TO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN

SUBCHAPTER B. TERRITORY AND BOUNDARIES OF THE STATE

Sec. 11.012. GULFWARD BOUNDARY OF TEXAS. (a) The gulfward boundary of the State of Texas is the boundary determined in and pursuant to the decision of the United States Supreme Court in Texas v. Louisiana, 426 U.S. 465 (1976).
(b) The State of Texas has full sovereignty over the water, the beds and shores, and the arms of the Gulf of Mexico within its boundaries as provided in Subsection (a) of this section, subject only to the right of the United States to regulate foreign and interstate commerce under Article I, Section 8 of the United States Constitution, and the power of the United States over admiralty and maritime jurisdiction under Article III, Section 2 of the United States Constitution.
*(c) The State of Texas owns the water and the beds and shores of the Gulf of Mexico and the arms of the Gulf of Mexico within the boundaries provided in this section, including all land which is covered by the Gulf of Mexico and the arms of the Gulf of Mexico either at low tide or high tide.*
(d) None of the provisions of this section may be construed to relinquish any dominion, sovereignty, territory, property, or rights of the State of Texas previously held by the state.
Acts 1977, 65th Leg., p. 2349, ch. 871, art. I, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1977.

I don't mind explaining my presence to anyone. However they had best visit me in a way not intended to harass me or to disrupt my hunt. A crooked hick JP and a "pet gamewarden" will fold like a dirty shirt when confronted by someone who actually knows the law.


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## txsnows (Jul 24, 2008)

The properties in question are not natural lakes the were created when the intracoastal waterways was built the landowners sold the land for the Intracoastal and most of them still own the land on the other side (spoil banks) . The property is leased but the hunting club chooses to use it as a Roost to make there hunting better as well as everyone elses hunting .


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## Salty Dog (Jan 29, 2005)

That is where the grey area comes in. Landowners had inland lakes that were not accessible by boat. Some were freshwater, some brackish. Gov't cuts the ICW thru and with that some of those lakes become 'navigable'. They were private property prior to the ICW.

In our area the GWs have long considered those lakes as private property to this day. Noone will say anything about you fishing in there but they won't let you hunt ducks in them.

So, Levelwind, prove your point. Come on down and hunt and show us how well they fold up when you confront them with da' law. I'll give you a couple as a start. Try Crab Lake and Oyster Lake north of the ICW and west of Matagorda. Let us know how it goes for you.


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## Harbormaster (May 26, 2000)

You can hunt any of the spoil banks or spoil dump/drains between the ICW and East Matagorda Bay...just watch the silt pits! All the property to the West of the ICW is private and most is patrolled by 4 wheelers this time of the year!

Try running up the bank of the King Ranch on a low tide with a roll of toilet paper in your hand and explain to the good ol' boys approaching very fast...this land is your land...this land is our land.... :biggrin:


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## 3rdcst (Jun 16, 2009)

The 7th ammendment guarantees property will not be confiscated without due compensation. The ICW cut through these properties and open them for navigation,the water is public but the bottom is private. 
Go ahead try and hunt these areas and I will come by and visit you at the Matagorda County jail.


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## dang_ol (Jul 14, 2008)

i hunt in anahuac alot and have talked to the GW, about the same situation, He told me it is a grey area, ask how that was, he said, long as there is water it is public, but as soon as your anchor touches, decoy weights touch, dog gets on bank, all is trespassing, 
so i bought in to one section, got to know the other guy's with cabins around me and got permission to hunt the other sections. that way i do not have to worry about trespassing.


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## Greenheadless (Apr 23, 2006)

Get caught hunting Welder Flats in San Antonio Bay and see what happens 

And that is open bay.


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## deke (Oct 5, 2004)

Greenheadless said:


> Get caught hunting Welder Flats in San Antonio Bay and see what happens
> 
> And that is open bay.


Hey Green, how can open bay be private? Please educate.


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## Greenheadless (Apr 23, 2006)

deke said:


> Hey Green, how can open bay be private? Please educate.


 http://books.google.com/books?id=w0...EwAg#v=onepage&q=welder flats hunting&f=false


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## deke (Oct 5, 2004)

Thanks.


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