# The Problem Child 308



## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

About 5 years ago I bought a Remington 700 XCR Compact Tactical 308. Mounted a 4x12 Leopold Vari-X2 with Talley bases & rings. I cleaned the bore and took it to the range. First 3 shots were right on top of each other using Federal Premium 165 Sierra BTSP. All right, that's what $2,000 worth of gun and scope buys. 
It's gone down hill from there. I've tried every brand of ammo I can find. The cheap Remington 150 PSP Corelock group best at about 1.5 inch with vertical stringing. The Federal Prem is now about the same as the Corelock. Rem $$Scirocco 165 Swift is the worst, 2+ inches. 
I've had the scope off and even swapped it with another, replaced the bases and rings, no better. 
I usually clean with a Boresnake and Hoppes. I have used Birchwood gun scrubber too. The bore looks bright.
Today I cleaned it again with Rem 40X on a patch around a brush, and followed with Rem oil on a patch. After that I decided to pull the stock off and look around. Behind the recoil lug I can see where the action is touching the aluminum block at the very top edge. I see a narrow corresponding rub on the action. See pics. There appears to be light contact or scratches at the bottom of the aluminum block. Should the contact be uniform?
I looked at the Rem owners manual on line and can get no stock torque spec. When I put it back together I torqued both stock screws at 50 in. lb.
Any comments are welcome.


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## BradV (Jun 27, 2012)

Looks like it is barely seating in the bedding block. You may benefit from a bedding job. Yes you should have uniform solid contact. I may be reading incorrectly, but I am seeing 1.5 to 2" in your description with hunting ammo. You should be OK at 50 in/lb torque. I am using 65 in/lb with an aluminum bedding block with a bedding job.

Is the barrel fully floated? Check with the rifle laying on some sandbags to be sure.
Have you shot any Federal Gold Medal Match? 
Have you let someone else shoot the rifle?
Have you inspected the crown very carefully?
Have you tried any hand loads?

I would bed it and give it a try. Here is an example on top of an aluminum block:










If bedding it doesn't settle it out I might throw your first 3 shots up to sheer luck and what you are seeing now is how the rifle is actually performing. 1.5" groups with hunting ammo is about all I really expect from most factory rifles.


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## Bird (May 10, 2005)

Agree with BradV, have it epoxy bedded and floated. Try Federal Premium 165 BTSP's once you get back to the range.


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## andre3k (Dec 3, 2012)

That's a good looking bedding job. I did my own and it made a definite improvement.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Clean the barrel with sweet's and also bed and float the barrel.


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

All good info. Yes, 1.5 to 2 inches is its best. I quit hand loading years ago, might ought to pick it up again. 
Yes the barrel is free floated. The crown has a recess and looks good. 
I think the action is just sitting on the edges of the block. 
Bedding job should fix it. Any recommendations for a smith? 
Thanks for the help.


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## Jungle_Jim (Nov 16, 2007)

Clean it with Sweet's 7.62 solvent. if it's not that, it's a scope problem.


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## peckerwood (Jun 9, 2012)

Verticle stringing is a sign of barrel heating up.Try letting it set a few minutes between shots.I'd do a full bed.That's old school,but it worked for us lots of years before free-floating became popular.


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## BradV (Jun 27, 2012)

Aaron Roberts with Roberts precision rifles will do a spectacular job. He is in the spring tx area.


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

^^^^Thanks!


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## Lezz Go (Jun 27, 2006)

I have a Rem 700 XCR Tactical in .300 Win Mag. I would shoot Okay, but not to my standards. 

Changed out the B&C stock for an HS Precision, and added a Timney Calvin Special trigger and now it's tack driver. Especially with the Vortex Razor scope. I believe the B&C stock was not beefy enough for the .300 Win. 

Took a Rem 700 SPS Tac in .308 with a 20" factory barrel and did the same stock/trigger/scope combo and it's a sub MOA rifle with my hand loads.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

9 out of 10 times when a gun used to shoot but now shoots poorly its copper fouling. Will bedding help? Maybe and sure wont hurt but I doubt its your problem because it used to shoot. If your barrel is touching the stock it can cause vertical stringing if it heats up. For sure fix this no matter what. If your using the gun for hunting let it cool completely between each shot. Who cares where the bullet hits from a hot barrel. Its going to be ambient temp when you squeeze off a shot at that buck. Scope or mounts? Could be but its also rare unless you have some bargain bin Chinese special. Get yourself a Dewy rod and a bore guide. Clean with a brush and sweets then with a patch. Repeat until no green comes out on the patch.


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

Bottomsup said:


> 9 out of 10 times when a gun used to shoot but now shoots poorly its copper fouling. Will bedding help? Maybe and sure wont hurt but I doubt its your problem because it used to shoot. If your barrel is touching the stock it can cause vertical stringing if it heats up. For sure fix this no matter what. If your using the gun for hunting let it cool completely between each shot. Who cares where the bullet hits from a hot barrel. Its going to be ambient temp when you squeeze off a shot at that buck. Scope or mounts? Could be but its also rare unless you have some bargain bin Chinese special. Get yourself a Dewy rod and a bore guide. Clean with a brush and sweets then with a patch. Repeat until no green comes out on the patch.


I don't think it's fouled. I think I said the barrel is floating. Yes, I might/might not use it for hunting. Most groups were 3 shots, a few 5. I check the barrel temp with a heat gun and my hand between groups. 
I'm using a quality stainless steel rod I have had for 25 years, and have bore guides. I think I said I have Talley rings. I use line-up mandrels and a torque wrench. I have not lapped the rings, but the scope sits in the rings good and does not show any signs of being misaligned. But I may replace them with Leopold and a Picatinny before it's bedded.
I may blue the action and see what kind of contact I have. If it's just on the upper edge like I think it is I might do some creative fitting.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

That stainless rod is a big no. You normally cant see the copper fouling looking down the barrel. Run a clean patch up close to the muzzle and look at the bore from the muzzle end. The reflected light from the patch will help you see any copper. I still bet you its copper fouled.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Bottomsup said:


> That stainless rod is a big no. You normally cant see the copper fouling looking down the barrel. Run a clean patch up close to the muzzle and look at the bore from the muzzle end. The reflected light from the patch will help you see any copper. I still bet you its copper fouled.


X2 and again get you some "sweets" and clean the barrel.


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## peckerwood (Jun 9, 2012)

Put lipstick on your action,then mount it back in the stock and tighten down.Take it back out and you'll see all the contact points.Color doesn't matter but ask your wife first.Lesson learned. Jerry


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

peckerwood said:


> Put lipstick on your action,then mount it back in the stock and tighten down.Take it back out and you'll see all the contact points.Color doesn't matter but ask your wife first.Lesson learned. Jerry


 I was thinking Prussian blue, but lipstick ain't a bad idea.


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

Bottomsup said:


> That stainless rod is a big no. You normally cant see the copper fouling looking down the barrel. Run a clean patch up close to the muzzle and look at the bore from the muzzle end. The reflected light from the patch will help you see any copper. I still bet you its copper fouled.


OK. 
So just for the sake of conversation, what do you use for a cleaning rod?


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## Jungle_Jim (Nov 16, 2007)

redexpress said:


> OK.
> So just for the sake of conversation, what do you use for a cleaning rod?


There is nothing wrong with a stainless rod if you are using a bore guide and jag.


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

I've had this cleaning rod so long I couldn't remember what it is. Bought it at a gun shop on Fannin in Houston. 
So I grabbed a magnet, and it is magnetic. I looked closely at it and it is a Kleen-Bore. I found their website, but not this particular rod. 
The closest thing is this. Mine has a wood handle of the same contour. 
http://www.safariland.com/rods-and-...2-.45-rifle-cleaning-rod-1009349.html#start=1


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

On barrel cleaning - try wipe out for removing copper . Sweets is ok , but takes way too much effort compared to wipeout . That bedding job was not that bad ( not that great either) since gun shot well at first - hence copper Fouling thought .


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

I apparently can't communicate.
Only the first 3 shots were good. Hasn't been right since.


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## jetbuilt (May 4, 2010)

Total round count?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

Ok. Any chance of somethings " wrong" with barrel ? A damaged ridge or groove from manufacturing. When you push a patch thru , any noticeable change in friction ? A bore scope will reveal if any thing is " out" of specs


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

May be a bad gun for whatever reason. Gotta check all the reasons out. I guess starting with bedding and again clean barrel.


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

jetcycles said:


> Total round count?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Less than 100.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

Jungle_Jim said:


> There is nothing wrong with a stainless rod if you are using a bore guide and jag.


I disagree with you. The whole reason coated cleaning rods were invented is because they flex and rub the bore. A bore guide helps but doesnt prevent it. Most bore guides are a one size fits all joke. The last thing you want is a hard stainless rod rubbing your lands.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

redexpress said:


> OK.
> So just for the sake of conversation, what do you use for a cleaning rod?


The only rods I use are Dewey. I spent a lot of money on my rifles that have Hart and Shilen barrels. An experienced gun guy would never use a stainless rod to clean his barrel.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

redexpress said:


> I've had this cleaning rod so long I couldn't remember what it is. Bought it at a gun shop on Fannin in Houston.
> So I grabbed a magnet, and it is magnetic. I looked closely at it and it is a Kleen-Bore. I found their website, but not this particular rod.
> The closest thing is this. Mine has a wood handle of the same contour.
> http://www.safariland.com/rods-and-...2-.45-rifle-cleaning-rod-1009349.html#start=1


Some stainless is magnetic. Only very high grades are non magnetic.


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

When I bought the cleaning rod I don't think there were any coated rods. The theory at that time was to not use an aluminum rod because it would become imbedded with grit. 
I'm aware of alloys. There are countless different stainless steels. 
Thanks for all the info folks. It helped to kick it around.


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## Bullitt4439 (Sep 18, 2014)

Doesn't sound like the gun is up to spec. The bedding and all that may help but I am doubtful. 

Bought a Remington 770 .308 last season ($330 out the door rifle and scope combo) and it will put hole on top of hole at 100-200 yards. Now granted the bolt locks up after the first shot and some of the plastic pieces have fallen off, but the rifle itself shoots true. 

Also my dad got a Remington 700 in 300win mag last year and has the same accuracy/ precision. 

Will be interested to see if the bedding helps on yours, hope you can get it where you want it!


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

I hear that. I have 2 other Rem 700's that shoot good. Rem 700 Classic in 300H&H that is incredible. It's big sister in 375H&H is almost as good.
Rem 700 Sendero in 264 ain't worth using to drive tent stakes. Been back to Rem twice. Still no bueno.
I think I'm done.


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## Jfreeman (Nov 3, 2004)

First get rid of the boresnake. Clean the rifle with a jag/patches and a brush. Id use sweets or something equivelant.

Make sure your action screws are torqued properly. Check the bottom metal and mag are aligned correctly.

Are you shooting the gun off a good front and rear rest?

How many lbs is the trigger?

Id have a smith look at it if you cant get it shooting after a good cleaning.


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

Ordered Sweets from Amazon and got it yesterday. Ran a patch wet with Sweets and let it sit 8-10 minutes. Ran a dry patch and had just a little blue on it. About 4 patches and was clean. Ran a wet patch with alcohol. Followed with oil. Back in the safe.


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## LA Wader (Oct 22, 2013)

A little late, but just read through this thread. I was having similar issues with my .308 Rem 700 VTR. The gun couldn't shoot a group if it had to! I had 2pc Leupold mounts on the scope. I tried several different quality 168gr bullets with no luck. The gun would shoot 3 shots inside a 2" circle, but that's about it. The guns' inaccuracy got my buddy's attention one day (he's way more knowledgable than myself) and he took it apart. The barrel showed where it had been worn by the stock in some areas. We took the rifle and put it in one of his stocks. Immediately the rifle began to group. My buddy changed out the scope base and put a rail and some seekins rings on it. I believe he also bedded the scope base. Now the rifle will flat out shoot! 

I'm new to all this technical terminology with shooting, but I'm starting to learn some of the do's and dont's!


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