# the POCO controversy



## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

I have had several offers to cover the costs (both bandwidth and legal) associated with this, and will accept those offers. My paypal is [email protected] or my address is Monty Weeks, 1467 Dickinson Ave. League City, TX 77573. Now that's going to make it real easy for the lawyers to find me, so read this part real careful if you want to post in this thread.

*You must sign your posts with your real name, first and last. 
*
Anyone not doing that is going to find their posts have a very short lifespan. Normally, I don't require this, but there's a large amount of money at stake at this tourney, and large amounts of money tend to cloud peoples good judgement. Don't start any other threads about this, keep it all right here. Me or my mods are going to close any other threads that start about it. Anyone not following the rules more than once is going to be removed.

Make sure whatever you post, you can back up in front of a judge and jury. "I saw" is a lot better than "I heard from..." I hope this doesn't turn into a complete frenzy either. I don't like cheaters any more than the rest of you, but I wasn't there, don't fish this thing and in fact really don't care much for competitive fishing to begin with.

All that being said, post up, follow the rules, and let's see what all the fuss is about.

Monty Weeks


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## bevo/fishing/hunting (May 10, 2005)

What is the controversy?

Jeremy Johnson


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## Zork (Jan 11, 2006)

Yeah...What's up?

John Vining


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## jaredchasteen (Jun 15, 2005)

I believe it has to do with the inshore division, sorry to chime in. I saw something on the fishing report board.

Thanks Mont for the great site. A truly invaluable resouce here in texas.

jared chasteen


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## fishinguy (Aug 5, 2004)

"There are some accusations flying about "Nervous Waters" and their win this year, which calls to question the previous wins. These accusations have to do with serious rules infractions. These infractions were witnessed by another boat and a protest was filed. There are some good Teams that fish the POCO and for one Team to dominate the tournament for the past three years has to make you question "Is 'Nervous Water' that good?" or "Have they cheated?".

I can say that "Nervous Water" was confronted, by another Team, with the accusations of their alleged improprieties last night at the POCO party. During the confrontation the two team members of "Nervous Waters" never looked their accusers in the eye. They stood there taking their tongue lashing while looking at the ground. If I legitimately a tournament and was being accused of cheating, I definitely would not take it from anyone accusing me of cheating. I would be right back in their face. These guys never did and the only comment they made in their defense was "we passed the polygraph test". There was also an accusation of using alcohol to pass the polygraph test. 

Hopefully the Fondren's will take a hard look at this and make a decision soon. This is a great tournament and it does not need a black cloud hanging over it."

"The infractions I have heard so far:

1. Using other boats to help them locate fish during the tournament days.
2. Potentially throwing bait. Saturday supposedly they were seen throwing a cast net out of their boat. (Poco is artificial only).
3. Taking shots of alcohol just prior to the polygraph test, which is prohibited.

I don't know what effects alcohol will have on the body when taking a polygraph. But I do know a buddy was not allowed to take the polygraph last year at the Poco because he had been drinking beer just prior to the test. His partner had to take the polygraph. Does anyone know if the alcohol will help someone pass the polygraph?"

Quoted from the fishing reports board.

Steven Hurst


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## Bug_Power (Jul 14, 2005)

Steven, 
Let me tell you a bit about the polygraphs. First of all they are not too terribly hard to fake the early tests. The FBI and others had to change policies and machines as well as look for certain things when doing Polygraphs. In the old days you used to be able to beat polygraphs by holding your breath at the right times, or putting a tack in your sock and stepping on it slightly at the right times. What would happen is you are asked control questions....is your name...are the lights on...etc. Your bodies repsonse to these questions is then compared to your answers and a judgment call is made. So if you stepped on the tack when answering your name and such, and every truthful questions, then didn't step on it when you lied, it made it POSSIBLE to get a false positive test. Depressants (alochol) can have a similar effect. It's also possible to be such a good lier, that frankly the machines can't tell either. It's a matter of measureing stress, perspiration and breathing.

Rodney Wade


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## notso (Jul 10, 2004)

I want to point out that the controversy is strictly regarding the inshore division and should not be confused with the POCO BUENO marlin tournament. My opinion is that this should not be a bluewater forum topic. Just would not want anyone to start false rumors and bad heresay about the offshore side of this great tournament.

Thanks,

Randy Bright


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## lordbater (May 21, 2004)

I worked for a company that manufactured computerized polygraphs for a while.
Alcohol will caused a depressed reaction in all three components, but most apparent in the gsr (sweat sensor)
a good examiner will notice something was wrong.

Andrew Coker


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## Blue Water Ho (May 21, 2004)

notso said:


> I want to point out that the controversy is strictly regarding the inshore division and should not be confused with the POCO BUENO marlin tournament. My opinion is that this should not be a bluewater forum topic. Just would not want anyone to start false rumors and bad heresay about the offshore side of this great tournament.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Randy Bright


Good point, dont want to see any bashing about 2cool.
David Owen


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

I checked into polygraphs fairly extensively when I was looking at setting up the 2nd flounder tourney for SCA. A detailed test will take 3-4 hours (long enough for alcohol, ect to wear off/down), and run close to $500 or more. I would be interested in the credentials of the examiner, if I was involved in the payout. Polygraphs can be re administered after the fact, and the results compared to the one given. 

Personally, if I had won the tourney according to the rules, and was sitting on the money, I would have walked off from anyone that wanted to get in my face about it. That's the smart move, any way you look at it. There's no way I would get (or get back) in anyone's face at a public event these days. That's a move guaranteed to cost you money.

Monty Weeks


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## Argo (May 21, 2004)

I was involved in a multiple murder case, no details. I had to take 3 polygraphs by the border patrol, the FBI and also by the Rangers. The longest that it took me was 2 hours. Those machines are flawed, I will tell you that and alcohal would definatley make a difference on the nerves. I doubt that it is as an extensive polygraph that I had to take given the different circumstances.

Jason Walence.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

Argo, had you been a suspect, I would think you would have been there a bit longer.

To those that have PM'd or made posts to the effect that this is a thread about the inshore division, I assure you, you are wrong. This may very well wind up being about tourneys in general. Anytime lots of prize money is involved, all bets are off. That's my personal opinion, worth .02, as are the rest.

Monty Weeks


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## kdubya (Jun 27, 2005)

*post restored*

830 views and 12 responses. Noone has any facts, or opinions on what happened ?
Ya'lls killing me not knowing what happened. Mont has opened the door and laid the ground rules. Cuss it and discuss it.

Kelly


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## fonz (Aug 18, 2004)

What was the money total won?

Alfonso Villareal


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## Argo (May 21, 2004)

hwell: I was a suspect. :ac550:


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## agulhas (Jul 27, 2004)

from what i know about the poly it depends on who is admin the test. a good test can and will take hours because the polygrapher has got to get to "know" the way the person responds. the guy i use now (i am a criminal defense atty and ex prosecutor) told me he knows the guys that do poco and a lot of tournaments and says they are very good. that being said the legal system will not allow you to mention them in a criminal trial because the science is not considered "good" for the standards in trial. i believe a poly done correctly is hard to beat for the truth. it is hard to beat it just by taking drugs, alcohol, etc. the "getting to know" part of the test may take hours and the relevant questions only a few minutes. got to base line and compare. if you are getting a compromised response on "what is your name" which you can do by biting your tongue - a good reader over the hours should be able to figure it out.

peter de leef


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## kdubya (Jun 27, 2005)

kdubya said:


> 830 views and 12 responses. Noone has any facts, or opinions on what happened ?
> Ya'lls killing me not knowing what happened. Mont has opened the door and laid the ground rules. Cuss it and discuss it.
> 
> Kelly


Sorry guys, forgot to add my last name earlier.

Kelly Walger


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## Animal Chris (May 21, 2004)

Mont said:


> Anytime lots of prize money is involved, all bets are off. That's my personal opinion, worth .02, as are the rest.
> 
> Monty Weeks


Monty, I agree with your statement 100%. This is why I gave up offshore tournament fishing a number of years ago....but it wasn't over money, just a trophy. The sad part of the whole thing was that the "winning" boat had the tournament won with out lying.

Chris Sumers


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## fishomaniac (May 22, 2004)

Argo said:


> hwell: I was a suspect. :ac550:


Must have been potlickers, right?

David Fortenberry


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## capt. d.r. (Apr 24, 2006)

Hey guys, it is NOT about the offshore division.......it was about the inshore team that won. i can say that i have fished the inshore division every year for 4 years and took my beating like a man and never thought about cheating. 
the facts are pretty much like stated in the initial rundown. there have been meetings and certified letters sent that state exact times and places of the infractions because team "nervous water" was being watched by a team that got skunked the previous day. i did not see this but the team that told me this are very good people and i have never known them to lie about anything. 
Winning POCO inshore is more about prestige than money so if you are a cheater than you are not prestigeous enough to hold the jug.

I AGAIN WANT TO STRESS THIS IS NOT ABOUT OFFSHORE, THOSE GUYS WOULD NOT EVEN THINK OF CHEATING. THE GUYS OF THE OFFSHORE DIVISION ARE SOME OF THE MOST HONORABLE FISHERMAN IN THE GAME. MOST OF THEM DONT NEED THE MONEY SO THEY DONT CHEAT FOR MONETARY GAINS. IF THEY WERE TO BE CAUGHT CHEATING THEY WOULD MORE THAN LIKELY BE BLACKBALLED FROM THE GAME.

seems to me that the main concern on this thread is that of the lie detector test and not of the actual act of cheating.

"LOCKS ONLY KEEP HONEST PEOPLE OUT" - capt. d.r.

*DO NOT SLANDER POCO BECAUSE OF A FEW BAD PEOPLE. THIS IS A GREAT TOURNAMENT.*

danny r. garber
Port OConnor, TX.


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## Scott (May 24, 2004)

I don't see this thread as slandering POCO anywhere in it. Actually, I think it more or less points out the fact that if there are bad apples, they are just that, a few bad apples and that's all. I don't think anybody here doubts the reputation and the quality of the POCO tournament as a whole.

Scott Alford
Houston, Texas


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## StarlinMarlin (Aug 3, 2004)

_*Poco Kill Tourney Question* _
_Ok, the fellow that posted in the other thread I'm sure did so to generate controversy. But let me ask a more legitimate question that is heart felt.

I've fished a number of sportfishers over the years. Granted only this last weekend though did I hook my first marlin - but I have a question regarding the kill tourneys such as Poco.

The previous thread indicated nothing goes to waste, that the meat is donated, etc. My question is this - do get in from the location that a marlin is caught is going to take what - minimum of 3 to 4 hours I'd say.

I've never been on a sportfisher with a hold or a chest big enough to house a tourney winning marlin (or most any marlin if you want to get down to it).

Are the fish iced down in kill bags or are they typically just laid accross the cockpit as I suspect?

If laid out in the cockpit, over 3 to 4 hours minimum running back in - several hundred pounds of guts and junk stuck inside that fish in 100 degree heat - I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to eat that!

Just an observation don't go vilifying or crucifying me! 

Earl_

Most of the boats use "Marlin Blankets". We cary one that is insulated and holds ice fairly well. The bag velcro's closed so that the tail and bill can stick out on large fish. Most of the boats want to preserve the fish as well as possible so it dosn't dehydrate and lose weight. A well kept fish may make the difference in a close weigh-in.

Rory Starling


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## Aces Full (Aug 10, 2005)

I, as well as most everyone who fishes, carries a camera of some sort on the boat. Thomas's boat, if he used his Flats Cat named Nervous Water, can easily be seen from a good ways away. If I entered the tournament, I would know who the big dogs were, and if I saw them cheating, I would take a photo to prove it, or confront them at the time I witnessed it. Does anyone have further insight as to exactly what was seen and when it was reported and is there any proof. Did the boat even have a cast net in it? How were other boats "used to help locate fish"? Thomas has fished Port O' Conner for a long time and knows that area like the back of his hand. He practically fishes every chance he can get and is a very well known fisherman. He has taught a lot of people how to fish that area as well. I have personally had my butt whipped by him in catching fish and can attest to his ability. I do not however know him well enough to attest to his character, but the friends I have made down there speak very highly of him and his integrity. That being said...I hope the outcome of this doesn't taint the view of POCO and tournament fishing overall. I don't support cheaters, but if there are only accusations and no proof...the answer is obvious. I've never been accused of cheating, so I don't know how I would respond. So to believe an accusation without proof and with proof to the contrary (lie detector test) just based on someones response or lack of response to the accusations, to me is absurd.


Ray Weldon


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## TFB Tomcat (Jul 17, 2006)

The simple fact is the polygraph test can be beat. I personally did not like the way Nervous Waters reacted either. Anyone that was there and witnessed their reactions will know what I am talking about. 

I also feel that the guys that witnessed Nervous Waters cheat need to make their names known as well. One thing I hate even more than a cheater is someone that falsely accuses someone of cheating. Thats even lower than a cheater. At least make their names known to CCA so they can question them. 

If Nervous Waters did cheat I don't think there is anything we are going to do about it this year. There is just no solid proof that I have heard besides two guys on a boat saw them do this. However, if Nervous Waters comes back to the tournament next year they would be insane to cheat because everyone will be watching. If they kick everyone's tail next year by 20lbs for the 4th year in a row, I will be the first one to congradulate them. 

Tommy Sulak (POCO for 6 years)


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## SpotChaser#2 (Feb 28, 2006)

The guys who witnessed everything did not say they cheated. They were hesitant to even say what they saw. Alright here it goes and this is not here say these are actual events that have been documented on day 2. And again I'm not saying that anyone cheated. At 6:00 am they met up with another boat on the water. The boats seperated and they then began fishing on the shoreline, after all the boat traffic died down they met on the shoreline and threw a cast net. They then walked to a back lake and fished for a while. No one saw them use bait. After fishing the back lake they came back and sat in there boat for a while one member threw a line out and jerked it every once in a while. From there they proceded to drive to POC at a slow pace and ended up in a pocket in POC were they just sat there. After that they went to the POC wells and sat there. These events take us to about 1:30pm. So basicaly what is being said is that it would be hard to catch that good of fish only fishing for a couple of hours that morning. Again I am not saying that anyone cheated its just that if you have ever fished this tourn you know how hard it is to catch that good of fish only fishing fora few hours.


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## SpotChaser#2 (Feb 28, 2006)

Clay Green


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## JohnHumbert (May 21, 2004)

*Who?*

Is the Nervous Water "Thomas" in question, Tom Lempa?

Just curious, as I used to fish with Tom Lempa quite a bit. He and I and Kelly Parks used to fish in the Victoria SWAC club tournaments.


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## fishburger (Feb 4, 2005)

We fished Poco, and we fish a lot of other quality tournaments every year. Poco is definately atop the list because of the prestige, quality of fishermen/women, and helluva good time. Having said that......we really hope that this team or any other team did not do what others are saying. If this is all a mistake we feel that there name will be cleared and all will be forgotten. If this is all true then there should be harsh and steep penalties placed upon them. There was a lot of money to be won this year, unfortunately we did not win any, but assume between 10k and 12k. There are too many excellent fishermen/women in this and other tournies that invest their time and money to have a good time and hopefully win some bragging rights. We are always gracious in defeat as well as in victory, however if we had to break the rules to obtain victory I don't know how gracious we could consider ourselves. 

Respectfully....David Denbow


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Not Tom Lempa...*

...His team was second and I believe the name is Sore Thumbs.


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Whoops...*

...Hal Hargis.


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## kdubya (Jun 27, 2005)

CTG said:


> The guys who witnessed everything did not say they cheated. They were hesitant to even say what they saw. Alright here it goes and this is not here say these are actual events that have been documented on day 2. And again I'm not saying that anyone cheated. At 6:00 am they met up with another boat on the water. The boats seperated and they then began fishing on the shoreline, after all the boat traffic died down they met on the shoreline and threw a cast net. They then walked to a back lake and fished for a while. No one saw them use bait. After fishing the back lake they came back and sat in there boat for a while one member threw a line out and jerked it every once in a while. From there they proceded to drive to POC at a slow pace and ended up in a pocket in POC were they just sat there. After that they went to the POC wells and sat there. These events take us to about 1:30pm. So basicaly what is being said is that it would be hard to catch that good of fish only fishing for a couple of hours that morning. Again I am not saying that anyone cheated its just that if you have ever fished this tourn you know how hard it is to catch that good of fish only fishing fora few hours.


Was there a suspicion to begin with? What I'm asking is, it appears they were being watched for most, if not the whole time they were on the water. Or, are the observations pieced together from different folks throughout the day ?

Kelly Walger
Richmond, Texas


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## Sow Trout (Jun 28, 2004)

I believe they were suspect because their first day's catch was so far ahead of all the other teams. Many thought it was suspicious that they caught so much more than everyone else. I think that is what caused another boat to follow them.
Darrell Donaldson


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Success...*

....is probably what brought all of this on. The winning team has now won three years in a row. Last year they swept all categories and won Master Angler by 20 pounds. I am pretty sure they also had big trout and big red. This year they again swept all categories and won Master Angler by 20 pounds. I am pretty sure they had big red this year. I believe that this level of success raised some eyebrows and caused one team to follow the winning team from take-off up until about 1:30 pm.

I did not see a thing on the water. I don't know who was in the follow boat. What I do know is that the POCO inshore field is loaded with excellent fishermen. If a team wins POCO once, they are bad mo fos. Win it twice and they are superhuman. Win three times and sweep all categories, including a 20 pound overall win, and they are from another planet. I think it is hard for people to believe that one team is that much better than this excellent field of fishermen. Further, if the winning team's activities on day two are as reported, it is even more difficult to understand how they came in with a winning stringer. I'm not saying it cannot be done, just that it would be one heck of an effort.

Anyway, I think this is how everything got started. I also agree with Sulak. If these guys win next year, I will be the second (behind Sulak) to congratulate them.

Hal Hargis


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## PF22V (Aug 11, 2005)

Sulak, Green, Denbow and Hargis very well said !


Ricky Frederick


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## Earl (May 20, 2004)

Thanks for the reply. That 'splains it. I knew you'd want to keep the fish iced to retain weight but having never fished for one to bring one back had no idea how they did it. Thanks for the explanation.

Earl Battey



StarlinMarlin said:


> _*Poco Kill Tourney Question* _
> _Ok, the fellow that posted in the other thread I'm sure did so to generate controversy. But let me ask a more legitimate question that is heart felt._
> 
> _I've fished a number of sportfishers over the years. Granted only this last weekend though did I hook my first marlin - but I have a question regarding the kill tourneys such as Poco._
> ...


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## Earl (May 20, 2004)

Hey John,

How long ago did you used to fish Victoria SWAC tourneys?

My father and I were charter members back when the (Bob and Hienz) Stolz's ran the show. I was just a kid so fished the Youth division winning it most years in the late 70's.

I do remember Kelly Parks from those days.

Earl Battey



JohnHumbert said:


> Is the Nervous Water "Thomas" in question, Tom Lempa?
> 
> Just curious, as I used to fish with Tom Lempa quite a bit. He and I and Kelly Parks used to fish in the Victoria SWAC club tournaments.


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## CaseyS (Nov 24, 2004)

*What I heard*

Wasnt there this year but have entered the inshore 2 times in the last 5 years. A source I consider reliable said that the winning team was fishing a baited backlake that was baited with cut mullet and another team saw it. That team called them out in the presence of POCO tournament officials. The team in question played the "Passed the Polytest" card.

Thats the gossip I heard.

Casey Stavinoha


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## Aces Full (Aug 10, 2005)

Can anyone post the rules or where to find them for the tournament?

I'd be interested to see what the rules were. 

Ray Weldon


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## agulhas (Jul 27, 2004)

if lance armstrong was on the boat they could say they cheated and were doping. hopefully it was just too many victories and not cheating.


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## CaseyS (Nov 24, 2004)

*Rules*

Just reading through what I have and what would pertain to my previous hear say post. They could have broken rule #6. Anglers must exclusively use artificial bait. or #8. All IGFA rules apply and equipment may be inspected. All the other rules I might be able to post come Monday.

Casey Stavinoha


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Hey Casey...*

...I do not have my copy of the rules. Do the rules allow chumming?


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## fishburger (Feb 4, 2005)

OK, I will ask the question.....Will team "Nervous Water" please step forward. We fished as Team Mullet and got our arse kicked by half the field. Our place doesn't matter. If I put myself in your situation, I would plead my case. I am sure there are many teams that fished Poco that are watching this thread and waiting..........waiting for you or someone else to stand up for what you did or did not do. Your values are your own, if you did* no *wrong, then show some pride and stand up for yourself! If you *did wrong*, then own up to your faults and show you are at least honorable in your mistakes. As I stated earlier, we do not fish these tournasments for the money, we fish them to fish, to have fun. I am not worried about the money, but I am worried about the dishonesty that could show it's face in this ordeal. I have held my tongue long enough...show your face and either claim your innocence or pay the piper. Speaking for many others, this tournament is too good to have this kind of cloud hanging over it. I would be embarrased if I were you, my name is David Denbow and I can be reached at 512-801-3498 if anyone has a question concerning this post.

Respectfully.


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## makoclay (May 25, 2004)

I suspect that unless Nervous Water admits to wrongdoing, this will never be solved. If these alegations are true, they have already won the tourney and I doubt you would ever get them to admit it. I do not know about their guilt or innocense, but I do have a theory of what will happen going forward:

I met the Fondren's last year when we signed up for POCO. They were very pleasant people and seem to enjoy the comrodery of the tournament. I thought this was admirable considering all the people they have opened up their house to. I suspect, however, that they do not have the time or energy to really investigate this much further. I think they too will say that since the lie detector was passed, this is not an issue. I can not say that I bame them. I also figure that Nervous Water has fished their last POCO. If they come back next year and do not do well, they will always be considered guilty. 

Clay Coan - Luanda, Angola


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## Holley (Jan 30, 2006)

*Our Legal System....*

....is based on the premise that we are "innocent until _proven_ guilty" but the fact of the matter in our society is "perception is reality". That being said, if I were in a position where I was being wrongfully accused of some wrongdoing, I would do everything within my power to clear my name from the transgression of which I had been accused.

Inactivity by the accused will only result in more fuel for the accusers and will make it more difficult for the accused to stack the chips in their favor.

FishBurger is right....their side of the story needs to be brought out in the open.

My two cents....Matt Holley


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## agulhas (Jul 27, 2004)

matt you are right on about how society thinks, i also think that the purpose of this thread is to lure TNW out into the open to "confess" in one way or another. it's not going to happen. just my opinion. we all want to hear it but they would be opening themselves to civil and perhaps criminal litigation. they may have cheated, they may just be better fisherman than the rest of us, but i don't think they are stupid......"even a fish would not get caught if it kept its mouth shut" and that's what they will do.

peter de leef


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## CaseyS (Nov 24, 2004)

Hargis said:


> ...I do not have my copy of the rules. Do the rules allow chumming?


It doesnt say anything against chumming but if the IGFA says no than it would violate the POCO rules.


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

guys - please remember to sign each and every post in this thread

Thanks


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Will do...*

...but mine is kind of already signed.

Hal Hargis.


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## CaseyS (Nov 24, 2004)

*Sorry*



CaseyS said:


> It doesnt say anything against chumming but if the IGFA says no than it would violate the POCO rules.


Casey Stavinoha


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## CP (Aug 6, 2005)

*I hate getting involved like this*

but seriously, why do they owe anybody an explanation. Maybe there was some cheating, but maybe there wasn't. Why is anyone obligated to defend themselves just because you suspect them of something.

I know nothing of the tournament or the rules, but from my perspective these are the facts. This team has won the tournament several times in the past. No one has seen them do anything wrong other than win too many times. Then they passed a lie detector test.

If you have your suspicions there is nothing that can be said over the internet to change your mind. While everyone is entitled to an opinion, I know from personal experience it is almost human nature to detract from people who are at the top of the game.

Chad Pedley


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

I know nothing about this particular situation, but if I were them, I would not post anything here, or respond to anyone anywhere. They won, they passed the test, and anything they say beyond that could do nothing other than to further the controversy. If confronted in an unappropriate place or at an innappropriate time, I would say or do nothing either; what would you gain?

Tom Scarborough


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Chad, you said...*

...it all when you said you know nothing of this tournament. If you were familiar with this field of fishermen, then you would know that it may not be impossible for this team to perform in this fashion, but it is improbable. Added to that, their reported activities on day two of the tournament are not the type of activities, in my experience, that deliver a winning stringer. Not saying it cannot be done, but doing it three years in a row at that level is, to say the very least, absolutely, unbelievably phenomenal. That is why the questions exist. That is why everyone wants to hear from this team.

Hal Hargis.


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Tom...*

...I really don't know what to say in response to your post other than you and I have zero in common. Oh, and to answer your question: RESPECT.

Hal Hargis


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

I didn't say I know nothing of this tournament, I said I know nothing of this controversy. I have only fished it offshore.

Tom Scarborough


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Tom.*

That post was for Chad. The other one is for you.

Hal Hargis.


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## Snagged (May 21, 2004)

.


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

Sir, respect is that when the other man wins, by all rules of the tournament, you accept that and move on. If you have specific issues with another gentleman, you take that up in private, either with them or the officials. That is respect.

Tom Scarborough


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Once again Tom...*

...and with all due respect, you and I have zero in common.


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

I will grant you that, for certain.

Tom Scarborough


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Ahhhh...*

...We agree on something. That is a start.

Hal Hargis


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

Snagged said:


> .


posts like this one are a complete waste of both my money and patience.

Monty Weeks


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

http://www.thevictoriaadvocate.com/sports/sports/story/3596800p-4157497c.html

From that article, it doesn't seem that they were out of line in their catches. In this thread, or anywhere else, I have not seen any first hand reports of the supposed cheating, nor have I seen any video evidence. Why would an honorable gentleman assume the worst on strictly hearsay evidence?

Tom Scarborough


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*I am not...*

...assuming the worst. You should start from the top and read my threads more carefully. I think the group of people that fished this tournament is interested in how this team has fared so incredibly well the past three years, especially considering their reported activities on day two. If they are straight shooters, so be it. If you look at my posts and most of the others, you will see that I (and most of the others) did not accuse anyone of cheating. Some eyebrows got raised at this tournament and people want some answers. There is nothing wrong with that, even if it offends your sensitivities.

I read the article in the Victoria Advocate. Just because it did not mention the controversy does not mean that one did not exist.

Hal Hargis.


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

Gentlemen, in lieu of evidence to the obverse, always assume the best. If there is first hand evidence, those persons have a responsability to bring it to the proper authorities, in private, as soon as it is noted.

After the fact, with nothing to show but he-said-she-said just makes you look vindictive and cheap. I have said about all I can say with the information available, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

Tom Scarborough


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*So, I (we)...*

...are vindictive and cheap. Quite nice, Mr. Tom. Thanks for your input.


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## SpotChaser#2 (Feb 28, 2006)

*Poco*

The fact that a cast net was used in an artificial tourn. is enough to raise a red flag. Again this is not hear say these are documented events which took place and have been brought to the attention of the tourn directors. We, myself and Mr Hargis are not saying they cheated but given the evidence something here is not right. If you are not familiar with the tourn and its rules then you wouldnt understand. clay green


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## Shorty Bang Bang (May 6, 2005)

*"Man Up"*

I will respond that as a man I would defend myself I were involved in such a controversy and had done nothing wrong. Maybe I am different, but I would not have these "issues" floating around without standing up for myself. Some of the guys that have posted on this thread are guys that fish this tournament every year and are very good fishermen. They want nothing more than to be on a level playing field. If they get beat fairly then they are gracious in defeat. I have witnessed this from them in the past and they are no different when they are victorious. The Team in question, when confronted, could only look at the ground and not look these people in the eye. If I did nothing wrong and were confronted in such a manner then I would either, walk away or "Man Up". I used to play alot of golf tournaments and quite doing so because it seems whenever there is money involved it brings out the worst in some people. One thing no one can take away from me is my integrity and will not compromise this value for any reason. At one time golf was an honorable sport but that is no longer the case. I will not intentionally bend or break the rules set forth in any competition just for the sake of winning. And we probably never will have some of these questions from this controversy answered but I think the questions are worthy of discussion. I have fished with and/or against Hargis and Clay. I have the utmost respect for both of them.

Len Knox


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

I do not know you, so I could not say if you are or are not; as I said, "it makes you appear to be". If any concerns were brought to the officials, then I would assume that they were dealt with. Were they not?

Tom Scarborough


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## fishburger (Feb 4, 2005)

tscarborough said:


> Gentlemen, in lieu of evidence to the obverse, always assume the best. If there is first hand evidence, those persons have a responsability to bring it to the proper authorities, in private, as soon as it is noted.
> 
> After the fact, with nothing to show but he-said-she-said just makes you look vindictive and cheap. I have said about all I can say with the information available, so we will just have to agree to disagree.
> 
> Tom Scarborough


Mr. Scarborough, 
Your opinions are well taken. However, I must answer some of your comments from above. * "Always assume the best",* not once that I can remember in this thread has anybody accused the said team of the offense we are all talking about. But, with the evidence that was presented, one has to all but think it was a possibility. *"Bring it to the proper authorities",* that was done, and is still ongoing. *"He-said-she-said",* there is no "she" in this situation. There is a "he", the boat that has witnessed the actions of the other team. In order for it to be he-said-she-said, *there would have to be another side to the story, which there is not. * *"Vindictive and Cheap",* Sir, I assure you that the men that have replied to this are neither. They are excellent fishermen and of the utmost professionalism in these tournaments that we fish. I must agree with one thing you said, we shall continue to "Agree to Disagree".

Respectfully,
David Denbow


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

My suggestion would be to allow the tournament officials to settle the matter. Accusations of cheating are a serious thing, especially when money is involved. The tournament banquet and an internet BBS are not the proper venue for accusation, which has been my point all along.


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Your opinions...*

...are noted Mr. Scarborough. I think everyone here understands that you disagree with this discussion. I respect your right to disagree with this entire process. I suspect everyone else respects that right also. A simple fact remains. Mont is allowing us to discuss this issue in this forum and we will continue with the discussion.

Hal Hargis.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Here's the deal the way I see it. I am surprised, as many attorneys as we have around here that it falls to a lowly armchair quarterback to bring this up. Especially one who rarely fishes inshore any more and whose only interest in POCO is as a spectator and a wannabe in the offshore division.

Ever been accused of a crime you didn't do and get an attorney? Whether you have or haven't, heres another platitude y'all left out.

"You cannot prove a negative".

Or in a competent attorney's vernacular, "Keep your mouth shut until I'm standing beside you".

Team Nervous Water has absolutely nothing to gain by engaging this conversation and a good deal to lose. Any inconsistency or differences in recollection between team members, or any poor choices of words will be pointed to by those who believe they did cheat. If they did not cheat, there is absolutely no way they can prove that they didn't. For gosh sake they passed a lie detector test and people still think they cheated.

I'm not against the thread. It's O.K. to speculate and question, in my opinion. And yep the cast net deal sounds suspicious to me too in an arties only tournament.

But what would you expect a team who has won the tourney several times to do? Or what questions would you expect them to respond to? 
"How they fished" (lures, depth, tides, spots)?

Right! Sure. Ever occur they might want to win again?

Time for a reality check. These guys won and passed the lie detector. They have NOTHING to gain and a LOT to lose by contributing to this conversation.

Speculate on.

Steve Cunningham


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*I hear you Levelwind.*

What you say makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways. I do not agree, because I think I would speak up if I were being questioned. But, I doubt the winning team is ever going to jump onto this board.

I also want to go on record. I have zero interest in any information about where these men fish, what they throw, what tides they like best, how they react to changing conditions or any other similar topic that relates to their fishing technique.

Hal Hargis


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## PF22V (Aug 11, 2005)

_Or what questions would you expect them to respond to?_

I geuss my question would be; What on earth were they doing using a cast net in a artificial only tournament.

Ricky Frederick


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## capt. d.r. (Apr 24, 2006)

I have fished against Clay, Hal and all of the other guys that fish in POCO for a few years now. i can honestly say that this field of fishermen are some of the best on the gulf coast. For the same team to beat these guys by 20 pounds, 3 years in a row, thats a little unbelievable. i have seen some of the fish that clay&brad, hal&michael, and the others bring in. it is not about the money to everyone who fishes this tournament, its about the respect and the sense of accomplishment you recieve for winning a tournament of this caliber. these guys fish tournaments up and down the coast and have put their time in. that is what makes them so well respected in their field. these are honest guys who would not start rumors that they could not back up. 
i think that the cast netting is enough to raise some questions. It has already been stated, by knowledgeable people, that a lie detector can be beat!!!! 
I think that everyone who paid their entry monies has the right to some awnsers on this subject, I am sure that CCA is investigating the matter. will we ever know the outcome?, probably not. i have a feeling, help me out here Hal, that there is some kind of legal mumbo jumbo that is going to keep us from knowing what actually came out of this. 

Maybe they will get their invitation pulled. who knows? i guess well find out. 

danny garber


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## dlove (Aug 26, 2004)

I think someone needs to determine if chumming is allowed as long as no chum is attached to the lure. Everyone is looking for an edge if they found a legal one then yall only have yourselves to be mad at that you didn't come up with it first. 
Dustin Love


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

Danny, I don't know if there ever will be a resolution by the POCO committee. I understand that they are investigating, but have no knowledge of whether they intend to publish their conclusions. I suspect the POCO is kind of trapped also. The winning team took and passed the polygraph so they appear to have done what is necessary to claim victory. In my opinion, not much the tournament can do now other than look into the matter. Who knows.

DLove, that is an interesting post. Problem is that if someone is going to chum in this type of tournament, are they really going to use precious tournament time throwing a cast net for fresh chum? Would it not make much more sense to get something a little more pungent before the tournament starts? Like a box of spanish sardines purchased and cut up before it is time to fish. I also have serious doubts about the effectiveness of chumming in this tournament format.

Hal Hargis.


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## capt. d.r. (Apr 24, 2006)

#6 says "anglers must EXCLUSIVELY use artificial bait"

----there is no part of chumming with cut up mullet or whatever thats artificial, so if you put some in the water then you are using it!!!!! that violates the rule. instant DQ>>>

#3 says "This is a team tournament limited to 2-person teams.

O.K.
then we have a rule revision that every one recieved that states "you may not send an advance boat to reserve a fishing spot as this makes your team greater than two."

---met and tied up with another boat at 0600. HMMMMMM that makes team greater than two!!!!!!!!!!!! CORRECT??? another DQ?


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## capt. d.r. (Apr 24, 2006)

sorry, 

danny garber


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## Holley (Jan 30, 2006)

Unfortunately, Hargis is correct in saying that the winning team will probably not ever jump into this conversation no matter how badly everybody would like them to do so.

Hargis is also correct in stating that this discussion is not about where they fished or what they caught them on (potlicking opportunities abound for all those interested over on the "Reports" board) but rather "supposed" decisions made by Team Nervous Water and the ethics and/or incidents and/or accusations pertaining thereto.

Perhaps the only thing that may come of the conversations that take place on this board is the increased awareness by the tournament directors of the "supposed" actions of a highly competitive team and the outfall within the competitive fishing community associated with the results of those actions.

For those who may not understand, inshore competitive angling in Texas is not all about the money (if it were we would all be broke and starving) it is about the *competition. *Pure and simple. Every person with a competitive spirit feeds that spirit in some form or another. Whether it be baseball, basketball, football, Nascar, pool, arm wrestling or fishing those with a competitive spirit will pursue their interests in the vehicle(s) that suits their lifestyle and identity. For some, spectating is the extent of their involvement for many of us involvement _in the competition_ is necessary. For those who choose to be actively involved in the competition it is understood that "you can't win 'em all", "second place is first loser", and losing is often times part of the game. All that being said, 99% of those who are actively involved in competitive angling (or any competitive venture for that matter) can accept second place or third place or defeat in general. *If it is an honest defeat!* When it is not an honest defeat, the entire competition becomes tainted!

We should all strive to win graciously and lose gracefully!

Let's all hope that this matter is resolved quickly and justly.....there are only 357 days until POCO!

Matt Holley


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## Aces Full (Aug 10, 2005)

I'm with Dlove on this one and as of yet, no one has posted the rules for all to read as a whole document. What if they used a cast net to "match the hatch" as far as colors, size and shape goes and nothing else? What if some of the netted fish didn't survive and floated around like chum. I don't see this as a rule infraction. Did the other boat wave them down for some reason? Was the other boat in distress or did they just want an autograph? If you don't have the answers to these and an infinite number of other questions them how can someone call them cheaters.

Ray Weldon


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

Well put Holley. I too am looking forward to next year.

Hal Hargis.


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Offshore Aggie*

Are you serious? Surely, you cannot be serious. That is funny right there!!!

Hal Hargis


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## Aces Full (Aug 10, 2005)

Are you serious? Surely, you cannot be serious. That is funny right there!!!


So, based on all the information you have right now, are saying they are cheaters or are you congratulating them? For your sake, unless you have information no one else has, I hope your in the mood to congratulate. Cause I for one based on all the input, can only congratulate.


So which is it???

Ray Weldon

PS - To answer your question...only patially serious.


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## dlove (Aug 26, 2004)

Since we can't prove they cheated we should get together and buy them in the calcutta sounds like they are a sure bet. By the way what did they go for in the calcutta this year?
Dustin Love


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Mr. Aggie...*

...I already congratulated this team at the Boathouse after the polygraph. I did not know of all of the allegations at the time. They told me and my partner, Michael Urban, that a protest was filed against them, but only said someone complained that they got too close.

If these guys won this thing fair and square, I will be the first to step up (again) and congratulate them. I think my first post on this thread said if they win it again, I will be the second to congratulate them. That does not mean there are not serious questions about their reported activities on day two of this tournament. No getting around that.

Now come on, where you serious about that "match the hatch" post? That's still funny right there!!!

Hal Hargis.


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, I forgot.

OffshoreAggie, I have never posted that this team cheated and I am not saying that now.

DLove, there is no calcutta in the inshore division.

Hal Hargis.


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## Aces Full (Aug 10, 2005)

"Match the Hatch" - So are you saying that it wouldn't be a good idea to match what the fish are feeding on? No, couldn't be. No one would say that was funny would they....now if they did...that there would be funny wouldn't it. 

So, what in your mind, would they have been doing with a cast net. Would any activity with a cast net be considered against the rules. Can you even answer the question that they even had a cast net, or are we just going on what others have "reported"? If there are "serious questions about their reported activities on day two", do you have the report? Have you read the report? Do you have the names of those that have reported these "activities"? Or is all this heresay? 

Well? If so post up with the additional info...

Ray Weldon


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

Come on OA. At some point you are going to have to get serious. Just how much is going to hatch on the south shoreline of POC. It is not like some new forms of bay life mysteriously appear in mid July. We all know what bait exists in these waters and when it will be there. My guess would be-----hmmmmmmmm-------MULLET. No way someone throws a cast net during tournament hours to make that decision.

What would you be doing with a cast net in the early morning hours of an artificial only tournament? Your best guess will be good here.

The answers to your other questions are contained in my previous posts, all of which have been very candid on the subject.

Hal Hargis.


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## fishburger (Feb 4, 2005)

*Accusations*

I don't recall anyone saying that team was cheating. The only ones to bring this up are those in their defense. 
The evidence points towards some strange activities that would damper a team from weighing the weight that they did on day 2. We are simply stating that it doesn't seem possible with the evidence that has been presented. If you read back you will see that at 1:30pm the team had not fished, but a few casts. I guess they wacked 'em real good after that, maybe they were waiting for the afternoon bite. 
It took all day, both days to get your fish and then some during Poco this year. If they wacked 'em from 1:30 to 4:30 that is really good and we congratulate them. But come on...I too will be more than happy to congratulate them again for their complete dominance over the past 3 years in a field of this caliber, if they did it honestly. 
Everyone that is defending them.......think about the evidence that has been posted on this thread, do you really think there is no reason for those of us who are asking questions?

David Denbow


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## fishburger (Feb 4, 2005)

*So, what in your mind, would they have been doing with a cast net. Would any activity with a cast net be considered against the rules.* 
Ray Weldon[/QUOTE] 
Having a cast net is not against the rules, nor is throwing it. Our point is simple...Why in the world would a team in a artificial only tournament be throwing a cast net in the first place? Is there a cast net throwing side pot that we did not know about, shoulder re-hab, maybe he lost his hat and he was trying to retrieve it. Think sensible, what we are asking is not unreasonable.

David Denbow


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## Extreme Fishing (Apr 24, 2006)

*I'll say this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

With the caliber of fishermen fishing this tournament, IT IS POSSIBLE (BUT EXTREMELY DOUBTFUL) TO 3 PEAT IN THIS TOURNAMENT WITH THE CALIBER OF FISHERMEN FISHING THIS TOURNEY. I agree with Hargis, and I have another question, has this team ever fished the Bash Tournaments, FLW, Red Fish Cup, etc., if they are that good they need to have some sponsors behind them and be pro's, and who are they????? Never heard of Nervous Water until all of this.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

I don't have a horse in this race but this whole thread reminds me of why we only like fishing with friends for boat pot money or just plain fun.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

follow the rules and sign your posts, gents. 

Monty Weeks


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Sorry Mont!


Blake Mills


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## jtburf (May 26, 2004)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 42 (42 members and 0 guests) jtburf, Bayduck, bearrw, Big John, bigshooter, BlueBound, Bueno Suerte, bumaruski, CHaRLie.DonT.sURf, ChaseC, CTG, deebo, Derekhie, fishburger, Grande Venado, Hammerhead, Hargis, Haute Pursuit, hjb, Holley, hydrasports28, LadynWading, LazyJeff, Levelwind, Mrschasintail, OffshoreAggie, oth2500, papotanic36, parkerb, pevotva, saltyh20, snipingram, texan279, Tight Knot, TopwaterAg, toyotapilot, TROUT1, whos your daddy, wildstreak

way to many folks reading this thread ....lol...

John


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Hey Haute...*

...that is totally understandable, but Holley really hit the nail on the head regarding why we do what we do. I do not think any of this particular fishing community is going to stop competitive fishing because of this controversy.

Hal Hargis.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

Hargis said:


> No way someone throws a cast net during tournament hours to make that decision.
> Hal Hargis.


No way anybody wins POCO three years in a row either.

Threw a cast net off my dock the other day and based on all the nickel sized shad took off my morning glory sand eel and put on a lil fishy. But I'm not a high profile tournament guy, just looking for breakfast.

Steve Cunningham


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## Aces Full (Aug 10, 2005)

Why wouldn't someone throw a cast net on tournament day???

This guide does it to catch more fish...Might try it sometime Mullet aren't the only food in the bay systems...

http://www.gulfcoastguidereports.com/fishinghuntingtexas.html

I guess this guy is "real funny too"

Hey do tides have anything to do with bay fishing?

Ray Weldon


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Offshore Aggie*

You really are serious. I am surprised. Okay, I will spell it out even more clearly.

If they needed to match the hatch, they would have done that on one of the days leading up to the tournament, not during prime time on tournament day. If there was not a bottom line before, now you have one. Lose the thought that these guys were matching the hatch on tournament day. That did not happen.

Hal Hargis.


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## spotsndots (May 20, 2005)

Match the hatch? Offshore aggie - this is not intended to be disrespectful but if I were going to do it just to match the hatch I would have gone out the day/afternoon before because 1. it ain't gonna change overnight 2. Why waste precious fishing time during the actual tournament? 

I have never fished the inshore division of the POCO but have fished the offshore division years ago and I follow it every year. The guys fishing it both inshore and offshore are among the best on the entire coast. I don't know anyone fishing the inshore so I don't have an ax to grind. I am not accusing them of cheating and never would unless I was personally there and had picture proof of it happening. I do find it unique that the same team has won 3 years in a row. I know it has never happened in the offshore division and I am pretty sure there has never been a back to back winner in the offshore division. 

My guess is that the winner stands as is and there will be more rules in place next year!

Jim Wolf


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Speaking of rule changes...*

...what are the thoughts on that topic. The best I have heard so far is to put a committee person on each of the top five boats in all three categories after day one. Don't know if that will happen and I am sure some teams will not want to give up their prime time fishing holes like that, but it could work. Any other ideas?

Hal Hargis.


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## Aces Full (Aug 10, 2005)

1. it ain't gonna change overnight ...OK?!?!?!?! I guess weedlines never move and the moon has no effect either.

Ray Weldon

Please read the article, and there are a thousand more if you want them from people that know a lot more than I do.


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## Levelwind (Apr 15, 2005)

My last post on this subject. I just find it kind of fascinating but I don't fish the deal, etc., don't want to be a spoiler. 

1. Good fishermen throw cast nets to find out what kind of bait's moving in a particular location, on a particular tide. I had one do it to me as he was charging me about $150/hour in Chockaluskee (sp?), Florida. And I'm glad he did. 

OH, he's in the sport fishing hall of fame, I think. Anyway, he's a pretty good fisherman. 

2. These guys have been doing something different than the other guys the past three years. That is a fact. a. Winning. b. Cheating (maybe) c. matching the hatch on tournament day (possibly). 

I'm done. Give the Aggie a break and call me an idiot for a while. Going back to the offshore stuff where I know even less. Hahahaha. 

Steve Cunningham


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## PF22V (Aug 11, 2005)

*Or......*

The person taking the polygraph be determined by the tournament committee prior to the tournament and revealed after the 2nd day weigh-in.

Ricky Frederick


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## Aces Full (Aug 10, 2005)

Yea, my nose hurts. Bye, and good luck to Hal Hargis next year. Seriously, thanks for the discussion and no hard feelings to anyone!!!


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks OA and of course there are no hard feelings.

Hal Hargis.


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## fishburger (Feb 4, 2005)

OffshoreAggie said:


> 1. it ain't gonna change overnight ...OK?!?!?!?! I guess weedlines never move and the moon has no effect either.
> 
> Ray Weldon
> 
> Please read the article, and there are a thousand more if you want them from people that know a lot more than I do.


Weedlines?.....yep, been catching a lot of Dorado in the inshore division also.


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## big peach (Jul 24, 2006)

EXTREMME FISHING.I'm with you.A team posting numbers like "NERVOUS WATER" .One would think they would be fishing more tournaments than the POCO. If i could make it look that easy i know i would.


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## big peach (Jul 24, 2006)

Sorry , Mont michael urban


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## big peach (Jul 24, 2006)

Oh. By the way HARGIS . I'm all for the committee members on the boat. Can they please select a group of nice looking females. With proper attire like G-STRING bikinis. michaelurban


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

Big Peach. Why did I not think of that idea? You are 100% correct. We would not want those ladies getting to hot, errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, uuhhhhhhhhhhh, on the boat. Need some breezy attire. Can we have a blond one? I think the choice of having females is also good because they will not overload the boat. You are a genious. I am glad we are partners. I am calling Mr. Fondren right now with that suggestion.

Hal Hargis.


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## fishburger (Feb 4, 2005)

Got my vote for the ladies. Yummy!
David Denbow


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## big peach (Jul 24, 2006)

HARGIS. Also ask for a first place redfish stringer paycheck from 2005. And a second place paycheck for master angler for 2006. HA,HA ,HA! michaelurban


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Easy boy...*

...take it easy partner!!!

Hal Hargis.


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## TFB Tomcat (Jul 17, 2006)

Hargis and Big Peach, you guys are just lucky that my partner is to short to throw a cast net or we would join NW


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## TFB Tomcat (Jul 17, 2006)

Tommy Sulak


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

He could throw an itsy bitsy cast net. It would take about four hours to get 3 baits, but he could do it.


Hal Hargis.


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## big peach (Jul 24, 2006)

It only takes about 2 1/2 hours to catch ten and three from what i understand . So, have at it TOMCAT. When you supposedly use a cast net.


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## big peach (Jul 24, 2006)

michaelurban


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## Recut (Jan 10, 2006)

*What I saw*

I posted this the Sunday after Poco and it was shut down but here is what I actually saw which I believe to be breaking the rules and they still passed the lie detector test. My team name is the Sore Thumbs, my name is Troy Tucker, my partners name is Tom Lempa and we haved fished the tourney since 1999. We have also finished second in master angler to Nervous Water twice and third once. I do not know if they cheated but what I witnessed makes me question the validity of the lie detector test. 
July 16, 2006
While fishing in the inshore division on Friday, my partner and I were wading the North shoreline of a back lake catching our redfish. A maroon Transcat drifted up close to us twice and watched us catching the fish. They pulled down the shoreline a few hundred yards and got out and waded the shoreline also. No problem, so may call it potlicking but there was room and they didn't cut off much of our wade. We finished up our fish and left the area to try and improve our trout. The next day we caught our trout and headed back to the lake at approx the same time. The maroon Transcat was stuck high and dry on a sand bar while apparently trying to enter the lake through the wrong entrance. The owners of the boat were nowhere to be seen. When we got to the area where we caught the fish there was a boat parked in our spot with two waders fishing the area. The waders were 500 to 600 yards apart and the rules state max of 400 yards. We pulled down from them and got out and ended up wading more towards the middle of the lake off of the shoreline and actually caught slightly better fish than the day before. We got back in our boat and left the lake and the other boat left behind us. When we exited the lake the maroon Transcat had been pulled off of the bar and was now parked next to two other boats on the shoreline. The boat behind us pulled up to it, parked and got into the Transcat and took off after visiting with their friends for several minutes. Fishing out of two boats is strictly prohibited in the Poco rules. We arrived at the weigh in at 4:40 PM and the Transcat was just being loaded onto a trailer and pulling off, having weighed in their fish early probably to avoid being seen by us. The weigh master informed my partner that we were in 2nd place for master angler and in a virtual tie for 2nd place redfish and that he needed to head to the boat house for a polygraph. While waiting for his turn the guys in the Transcat sat down for a polygraph. My partner asked them if they were in the maroon Transcat that ran aground at the lake entrance. They confirmed that it indeed was them but when asked how they got into the lake they said that they walked in from their boat which would have been close to a mile trudge through knee deep mud. My partner informed the man in charge of the polygraph of the situation while taking his test. Their team name is the Younger Brothers and as the name suggests they are brothers but I did not get their first names. At the party that night there was rumors that they were having difficulties passing the test but ended up passing it and were awarded second place redfish stringer. I do not fish too many tournaments anymore because of all of the cheating taking place, but I have always loved Poco because it is a classy tournament with a great format and the polygraph. It is a very well run tournament with a lot of great people in the organization and fishing the tournament and it is very disappointing for me to see it stoop to the level of so many other tournaments out there today. There were rumors of another winning team that cheated but I saw this team cheat and there is absolutely no doubt about it. Right now I am not sure if I will fish it again which is upsetting because I have always started looking forward to the next year's tourney the day after the current tourney is over. 
Troy Tucker


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

Did you take any photos? Did you file a protest at weigh in? I am not doubting your words in the least, but these are the proper way to do things, and remove all questions from the dispute.

Tom Scarborough


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Photos, videos, etc.*

Who carries the type of photo or video equipment it would take to document stuff like that on their boat during a tournament? I have a Pentax Optio WPI. Great little camera, but totally ineffective to get pictures of what is being reported. I agree it would be great to have production quality video of what has been reported, but is that realistic?

Hal Hargis.


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## Recut (Jan 10, 2006)

*Yes we did*

My partner informed the man in charge of the polygraph what happened with the team in question and they were able to pass the test. Not sure of what took place but I have heard that the rules committee allowed them to pass, but this is just hearsay.
Troy Tucker


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

Who said video? A pic of the grounded boat, a pic of the guys visiting with their friends and a formal protest at weigh in are not out of line or out of range of a simple digi-cam.

Tom Scarborough


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

I thought someone mentioned video up above. My point is that it does not matter if there is a picture. There are no pictures. There never will be pictures of this stuff. Just the way it is.

I do not know if you know the Sore Thumb team, but they have an outstanding fishing reputation. I have no doubt they saw exactly what Troy reported. I'll bet anyone that knows them is without doubt also.

Hal Hargis.


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

I don't know them or anyone else involved, nor do I doubt anything they say. I just know that a photo solves many issues, and a formal protest is not only a good idea, in a case like this it is a requirement.

Tom Scarborough


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

I agree that a photo would be great, but there isn't one. I'll bet Sore Thumbs did not think they needed one when they were on plane during the tournament and negotiating into that lake. I am sure there minds were on many things other than filing a protest.

I also think protests got filed on both of the teams at issue.

I don't know where I got videos. It is not in any of the previous posts. Sorry bout that.

Hal Hargis.


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## jt2hunt (May 13, 2006)

i know the young brothers fairly well. I doubt they cheated, if that is what i understand is being implied about them, as well. I have family connections with Haven and Bubba Young and have never known anything bad about them, other than they fish their arses off. I also know they have many friends and family that frequent these boards. Hope all is on the up and up.

thanks,

jason tiemann


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

I know Bubba also. I understand from a source close to Bubba that he told the tournament committee exactly what happened before or shortly after he weighed his fish. They let him weigh anyway and take the polygraph. I do not know Bubba's bro, but I agree that Bubba is a stand up guy that fishes as good or better than most. I have seen all the poco plaques he and his former partner (Otto) won. It is impressive.

However, I understand what Troy is saying also. If I was Troy, I would be upset. Not a knock on Bubba, but evidently, he and his bro had help from other people. That makes them more than a team of two. They also apparently fished out of two boats, one of which they did not tow, which is against the rules, as I read them. I think the distance thing is a tough one because it involves subjective judgment. Nonetheless, in my opinion, Troy has every right to be upset.

Hal Hargis.


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## Recut (Jan 10, 2006)

What I am upset about is the fact that possibly team(s) are beating the polygraph test and what it does to the reputation of this tournament which I love. If the rules committee overlooks the infractions then I am ok with getting beat, but I hope they get the rules straight and enforce them in the future and in fact teams are not beating the polygraph.

Troy Tucker


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## jt2hunt (May 13, 2006)

i appreciate the response. Otto is my uncle and one of the better fisherman out there.


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*I agree Jason...*

...and would never say differently. Those guys are good.

Hal Hargis.


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

I agree with that. The only reason I am even posting about this, since I haven't even fished Poco in the last 20 years (21, to be exact and then offshore), is that to me Poco Bueno is the epitome of a fishing tournament. My gripe is that while the concerns may have been legitimate, the fact is that this is not the time or the place to discuss them, other than as a medium to improve the system. It is a dead issue, and there is absolutely no good that can come of anything said here or anywhere else about it, other than how it relates to future tournaments.

Poco is the one of 2 tournaments I even care about, the Watermelon Open being the other. I check the 'net for news of each every year, which is how I found this (very cool) board in the first place.

Tom Scarborough


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## Shorty Bang Bang (May 6, 2005)

*Cast net*

Tomcat, next year the first day I am planning on running wide open to the Coast Guard flats and spending an hour or so throwing a cast net. BTW Hargis can I borrow yours since I do not own one? Never mind I am sure my partner has several of them in his boat. If you can't beat 'em then join 'em. If matching the hatch is all you have to do to win the Poco, then I am in. Hal, Matt, Clay, Peach I plan on doing a full boat inspection to ensure none of you have a cast net on board, that is unless you want to join me at the Coast Guard flats for a little cast net throwing demonstration. Wait a minute that is against the rules of only a Team of two. You all will have to find your own spot to throw your cast nets, the Coast Guard flats are mine. I look forward to next year, I just need to get my partner to kick it up a notch or I will have to fire him. Especially if he doesn't stop with the short jokes. I will have a full camera and video crew onboard in case I witness any improprieties they will able to capture those activities and I will have indisputable evidence. Nix that, that violates that rule of only a Team of two. I guess my little disposable camera will have to work. Peach, I do like your idea for the onboard committee member but is that going to violate that little rule of only a Team of two? At that point who cares, maybe I will fire my partner and just ride around with the committee member and I wouldn't violate that little rule of a Team of only two.

Len Knox


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*OMG Shorty...*

...you are good. ROTFLMMFAO!!! That is hilarious.

Hal Hargis.


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Scarborough...*

...I am not sure why you are so insistent that "this is not the time or the place" to discuss these issues. I just checked and there have been 135 responses to this thread (136 if you include this one) and 15,407 views. You may be in the minority on that opinion and I strongly suspect that your protestations are not going to stop or slow this thread. My two cents.

Hal Hargis.


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

Maybe they can turn it to a constructive end?

Tom Scarborough


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*Huh???*

I don't get it.

Hal Hargis.


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

Some discussion in this thread has been to that end; i.e. how to improve the rules to eliminate issues. Not being a fan of polygraphs for instance, I do not see them as being a viable deterrent. Onboard observers is not really practical, though it is almost bulletproof (esp. the bikini uniform).

Tom Scarborough


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## tscarborough (Jul 16, 2006)

Aother example would be the "team of two", and no help from other boats concepts. Without a set of the rules in front of me, these are pretty much unenforcable except as they pertain to actual lines in the water. In the age of Nextel, help is readily available and undectable. You will have to help me to understand those rules.

Tom Scarborough


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

This all sounds like it should be an excerpt to a Lance Armstrong book... no way he is better or luckier that many times in a row. Sounds like you guys who fish this definately need a new polygraph administrator... the current one does not have any credibility left after this.

Blake Mills


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## fishburger (Feb 4, 2005)

Tom, I must admit, you are persistent.
David Denbow


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

*seeingred...*

...I am not one of the monitors of this site, but the rules of this thread are that you have to sign your first and last name. Give it up. Besides, I want to know who you are.

Hal Hargis.


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## fishburger (Feb 4, 2005)

10-4 on that, I want to know also. That is pretty good stuff.
David Denbow


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

"This all sounds like it should be an excerpt to a Lance Armstrong book... no way he is better or luckier that many times in a row."

That was meant as sarcasm. I am not stirring the pot but it just seems to me that the argument that they must be cheating because no one can win 3 years in a row is suspect at best. Add to that they somehow passed a polygraph (now two teams?) and add some heresay allegations and maybe you can see where an impartial observer would be coming from. I hate to see someone lambasted and piled on to with no hard evidence to support those claims. If theses guys cheated and have read or heard about this, chances are they won't fish it again... but if they did not, I hope they win for 3 more years. Not trying to offend anyone...

Blake Mills


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## Hargis (Apr 7, 2005)

Not offending me Haute. I respect your opinion. I just think you are not familiar with this tournament and its field of fishermen. Again, I am not saying it cannot be done, just that is a small miracle, especially when you consider their reported day two activities. 

Hal Hargis.


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Thanks Hargis, I only know a couple of people who fish the offshore division. I sincerely hope you guys can figure out a format and rules that keeps this kind of thing from happening again. This discussion certainly does not do anyone any good. Tight lines to all!


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

guys - the rules is the rules

if you don't sign your name, your posts in this thread will be (and some have been) deleted.


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## TFB Tomcat (Jul 17, 2006)

If you guys would have been there Saturday night and witnessed what I saw then you would not be posting these messages. You would understand why this topic has received this much attention. I 100% behind Hargis

Tommy Sulak


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

Haute Pursuit said:


> Thanks Hargis, I only know a couple of people who fish the offshore division. I sincerely hope you guys can figure out a format and rules that keeps this kind of thing from happening again. This discussion certainly does not do anyone any good. Tight lines to all!


Guilty again of not signing. Sorry!

Blake Mills


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

*Response to Troy Tucker's (Team: "Sore Thumbs") starting 7-16-2006*

I would like to respond to Troy Tucker's (Team: "Sore Thumbs") posting dated July 16, 2006 regarding "cheating" at the Poco Bueno Inshore Tournament this year. Troy, my name is Haven Young. My brother's name is Nathan. Our team name is "The Younger Brothers". I would like to provide some additional details to insure that your story is as truthful as it can be. 



Before I deliver my response to your comments posted from July 16th , 2006 forward, let me commend and congratulate the organizers, support personnel, and tournament committee members of the Poco Bueno Fishing Tournament on a job well done. You continue to deliver a 1st Class event every year. It is disappointing to see a handful of individuals that fish this tournament get on various websites to post their rants and conspiracy theories on how they were wronged at the conclusion of great events such as this one. 



You mentioned that we came in on you and your partner in our maroon Tran-Cat. You made reference that we had "pot-licked" your Redfish hole. You stated that we pulled up within "a few hundred yards" of you on that shoreline on Friday. For our future consideration, how many thousands of yards do we need to anchor up from you and your partner to avoid being defined as "pot-lickers"? I do not mean to pop your balloon, but, those Redfish had been in that area for weeks. Several fishermen knew about them, including us. Sorry if we trespassed in "your fishing spot". 



You made reference to us fishing 600 yards apart. What brand range-finder do you use when you wadefish? We were well within our 400 yard limit, and, in site of each other. 



You mentioned a grounded Tran-Cat in this lake. You are absolutely correct. We grounded our boat early on Saturday morning. We contacted friends to bring our back-up boat to the lake in question. After that call was made, my brother and I waded the length of that lake, knee-deep mud and all. If you remember, it was dead calm that morning. The heat and humidity made that wade most painful, but, it's "POCO", right? We completed the wade and then hiked over to the bayfront and walked back to where the back-up boat (Shallowsport) was anchored. We transferred our tournament flag and gear from the grounded Tran-Cat and resumed our fishing in "your spot". 



While we fished the lake in question, the guys that delivered the back-up boat removed the grounded Tran-Cat and anchored it out in front of the lake in question. We followed you out of the lake on the Shallowsport then transferred our flag and gear back to the Tran-Cat. You stated that fishing out of two boats was strictly prohibited in the rules, but, we were always fishing together off of one boat. 



You stated that we "weighed in" early to avoid being seen by you and your partner. My friend, we had nothing to hide from you. We noted your interest in us and fully expected you to file a protest. We would have considered that option as well had we been in your situation. 



Nathan and I had come to the agreement that we would gracefully accept ANY decision the tournament committee delivered on this matter. Your partner took his Lie Detector Test, before my brother, and filed your official protest. My brother was asked if there was anything that needed to be discussed before starting his "test". Nathan was forthright and honest in describing exactly what had happened that day. The tournament committee met, reviewed the incident, and determined that no rule had been broken. Nathan passed the Polygraph without incident. You mentioned that he had trouble passing this test. That is news to us and everyone else involved. 



Winning tournaments by cheating is not worth our while. It is not in our fabric. A lot of folks know us in the POC area and I think most would agree with this statement. I suggest you have your facts straight when you choose to slander people in the future. Try contacting the appropriate personnel, whether they are the team members that you question, the committee members that oversee the tournament and make decisions based on rules, or the personnel that provide the Polygraph Tests BEFORE you attempt to sew your seeds of conspiracy.



Additionally, you made mention in your posting that the other winning team, "Nervous Water", was suspect as well. I have a suggestion. Why don't you and your partner organize your own tournament, write your own rules, and choose the teams you want to fish against. That way, you will have a better chance to win at least one category. You can just disqualify anyone that stands between you and your quest to win a tournament. You may also consider changing your team name to: "Sore Losers". Thanks for letting me vent. 



 Haven Young

 "The Younger Brothers"


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## Sow Trout (Jun 28, 2004)

Haven, I'm glad to finally read your version of the events. I wish you had done it earlier in this thread.
Darrell Donaldson


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

I just found out about this website and postings this week. My brother and I were caught off guard. Why didn't "Sore Thumbs" discuss it with us at the banquet Saturday night?

Thanks, Haven Young


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## agulhas (Jul 27, 2004)

Haven that was a great response. Sounds believable and legit to me. Hopefully this will now be over.


peter de Leef


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## POCO OTTO (Aug 13, 2006)

Haven, (Younger Brothers)
You could not have said it better! I think that the team "Sore Thumbs" has mis-read
the rules. The rules state that partners must fish out of the same boat! They can fish out of one and then transer to a kayak, or a towed boat, but must fish out of the same boat. The rules do not say anything about transferring your gear, flag, fish, etc.. from one boat to another. In fact, I know of several teams who have had motor trouble and sent for a backup boat. Would they be disqualified if they were towed in? Also, the rules do not say anything about talking to other people on the water. The rules state that there can be no collaberation with anyone other than the team member. I think that the "Sore Thumbs" have interpreted the rules to suit their own agenda, and that is unfortunate to say the least! 
Otto Haardt


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

*Still waiting for a reply from Troy Tucker of the "Sore THumbs*

Troy Tucker,

I have been patiently waiting for your rebuttal to my response to the "smack" you were posting re: "The Younger Brothers" cheating in this year's Poco Bueno Tournament. Word Up!

Haven Young
"The Younger Brothers"


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## jt2hunt (May 13, 2006)

silence is deafening! speaks volumes, in my opinion.


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## CP (Aug 6, 2005)

*I think some public apologies are in order*

since there was plenty of public slander. Be a men and the do the right thing.

Chad Pedley


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## ETLProp1 (Jul 26, 2006)

*Sore Thumb Response*

My name is Tom Lempa. I am the other half of the team "Sore Thumbs". This is in response to Haven Youngs posting in response to the original allegations coming from my team. 
First of all I feel it is an honor to fish the Poco Bueno Inshore Tournament. The format is the best and the competition is by far the classiest most professional bunch of people on the coast. Thank you to all who put time, effort, and property into organizeing the tournament.


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## Argo (May 21, 2004)

and second? third?


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## ETLProp1 (Jul 26, 2006)

*Response from Sore Thumbs*

My name is Tom Lempa. I am the other half of the team "Sore Thumbs". This is in response to Haven Youngs posting in response to the original allegations coming from my team.
First of all, I feel it is an honor to fish the Poco Bueno Inshore Tournament. The format is the best and the competition is by far the classiest, most professional bunch of people on the coast. Thank you for all of you who put time, effort and property into organizing the tournament.
I am the one who protested the Younger Brothers claim to second place Big Red Stringer (we finished third). And why? RULE #3 states: "This is a team tournament limited to two person teams". Haven admitted to me at the Fondren Boat House that their boat was inadvertently run aground at about 6:00 a.m. Saturday morning. Haven said, "we contacted friends to bring our back up boat to the lake in question". These are Havens exact words. When that "back up" boat was delivered by an outside agency, this violates the two man team rule. How can that be less than 3 people, two men fishing, one driving/delivering?
Haven also stated that he would have considered the option of filing a protest had he witnessed the same thing we saw.
At the party, I was told that "Bubba Young" was having trouble passing the polygraph. I asked, "Who's Bubba?" and was told that it is a nickname for one of the Younger Brothers. I am sorry for this misinformation.
We were accused of being slanderous and conspiratorial.
Webster defines as follows: Slander: A malicious false and defamatory statement or report. Conspiratorial: A group plan to commit an unlawful or evil act.
I reported what I saw, nothing else. Haven agreed to the delivery of a second boat. This is not slanderous or conspiratorial on our part.
In reference to the Nervous Water team, up until I left the party, my team was the only team who congratulated them on another incredible win. Sore Losers do not do that!
In the end, the Rules Committee found no infraction on the "Young Brothers" team, and that is the end of it.
Jesus told his followers (including me) to be "A Fisher of Men", not "Fight amongst Fishermen".
Sorry if any feathers were ruffled. Congratulations and see you next year.

Tom Lempa
Sore Thumbs


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## Third Coast Fishing (Feb 23, 2006)

#1. Jesus wouldn't have filed a protest!

#2. It is a (Fishing) tournament, not a boat driving tournament. Having someone bring another boat has nothing to do with catching fish. You got out-fished, plain and simple.......

#3. POCO should change from the Polygraph machine, to the tried & true method of a Flashlight and a Rubber Hose as a lie detector! Works everytime!

Capt. Brian Rankin


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

*Response to Tom Lempa of the "Sore Thumbs"*

Tom,

Thanks for your response and I accept your congratulations. I am also thankful that you provided the definitions from the Webster's Dictionary to help reinforce my response to your partner's irresponsible postings on this website starting on July,16th, 2006.

Nothing you have mentioned in your response was excluded in the discussions with the tournament committee or the gentleman conducting the polygraph test. The issues associated with "friends bringing a second boat" blah, blah, blah. The committee ruled that we fished as a team of two off of ONE boat. That is it! We passed the Polygraph WITHOUT difficulty.

Your partner was totally convinced that we were cheating and how could we have ever passed the Polygraph? He made sure that his posting included every detail of how we pulled it off. You mentioned that you had "heard" that my brother had trouble with the polygraph. Your partner made sure that "observation" was mentioned too. We were under NO obligation to answer any questions you had for us at the boat house, but, we had NOTHING to hide, and were quite comfortable during your interrogation. We were prepared for your protest, and as stated in my initial response, "would gracefully accept any decision the tournament committee made".

 Forgive me if this response offends you, but, I feel you need to step back and let your partner step up to the plate and be accountable for himself. He was incredibly malicious and irresponsible. And save the Bible lesson for your partner, I am already familiar with that one and practice it in my daily life. I do, however, expect accountability when my name is "dragged through the mud".

Sincerely,

Haven Young
"The Younger Brothers"


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## Recut (Jan 10, 2006)

Younger Brothers,

I stand by my statements, I only posted what I witnessed and nothing more. My only concern was for the integrity of the tournament. If the rules committee decided to allow teams to be assisted by other boats and people then I am OK with it, congrats on your stringer. I have won more than my fair share of tourneys and we were the only team congratulating the winning team at the awards ceremony. In fact I strongly encouraged them to keep fishing the tourney during Sat. night's party after all of the allegations were flying. Not something "Sore Losers" would do. This is my last post on this matter. If you have anything to say to me, send a PM or look me up.

Troy Tucker


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