# Accurizing Your Rifle



## TxHunter1214

Okay I just bought a new Remington Sendero SF II in a 7mm and thing about taking it to Aaron Roberts in Spring Tx to make some upgrades. I have heard nothing but great things about Aaron, but my question is what does everyone suggest to help the rifle shoot to its maximum abilities? What are the most important things I should focus on getting upgraded to accursed the rifle even more?


----------



## andre3k

TxHunter1214 said:


> Okay I just bought a new Remington Sendero SF II in a 7mm and thing about taking it to Aaron Roberts in Spring Tx to make some upgrades. I have heard nothing but great things about Aaron, but my question is what does everyone suggest to help the rifle shoot to its maximum abilities? What are the most important things I should focus on getting upgraded to accursed the rifle even more?


There are a lot of things you can do without having to send it to a smith. I'm assuming this is mainly for hunting based on the caliber you selected. A properly bedded rifle, with good optics, a good trigger and hand loaded ammunition will usually be a pretty good shooting rifle. If something does get sent to a smith I'm having an action blueprinted and chambering a new barrel.


----------



## Sgrem

What kind of accuracy are you getting now? What have you tinkered with to improve on it as is? What loads have you tried and which have you eliminated already? What optics?

These questions and many others are what a smith will start with. Then the question will be where do you want to be?

Truth is most of the rifles on the high end of quality will shoot better than the shooter as is. And expect to spend equal if not more on the optics.

Soooo....where are you now? Where do you want to be? What have you tried? A little more info and maybe we can help you some more.


----------



## CHARLIE

sgrem said:


> What kind of accuracy are you getting now? What have you tinkered with to improve on it as is? What loads have you tried and which have you eliminated already? What optics?
> 
> These questions and many others are what a smith will start with. Then the question will be where do you want to be?
> 
> Truth is most of the rifles on the high end of quality will shoot better than the shooter as is. And expect to spend equal if not more on the optics.
> 
> Soooo....where are you now? Where do you want to be? What have you tried? A little more info and maybe we can help you some more.


X2

Bet that gun shoots pretty good out of the box.


----------



## RB II

I have a Sendero in 7 mag. It does shoot good out of the box, problem is finding ammo that it likes. I shot about 6 or 7 different brands and weights of ammo, none of which shot like I wanted (1/2"+ MOA) probably 1" MOA was best I got. It did NOT like the Hornady SST 139 grain ammo, slung it everywhere. The twist on that rifle is 9.25 to 1, so 150 to 170 grain ammo works well for that. This past year, I installed a Jewell trigger and worked up a hand load (168 Grain Berger VLD at approx. 2900 fps), now it shoots between 1/2 and 3/4" MOA. This year I am going to bed the stock (it comes factory with the barrel floated) should take it down to 1/2". That will be good enough for that rifle, and at $1200 base rifle, a fairly cheap alternative to a $2000+ custom rifle that will shoot about the same level of accuracy, especially for a hunting rifle.

BTW, I really like the rifle and caliber for hunting. Been a 270 man all my life until I bought this rifle.


----------



## Jungle_Jim

If I was going to replace or modify only one thing on a rifle to improve accuracy it would be the trigger. With the 700 you can adjust the trigger or have a smith adjust it.
Almso zero cost to make a big improvement.


----------



## artys_only

CHARLIE said:


> X2
> 
> Bet that gun shoots pretty good out of the box.


 Charlie is right , Aaron will do you right , but I would have shot it before taking it to him , trigger is a must I did not care for the new Rem triggers , bedding will help also . think about braking if you are going to shoot it a lot , with a cap to use while hunting . Sendero is one of the most accurate guns out of the box that I have shot , I am a 700 action guy thou .:walkingsm


----------



## TxHunter1214

Thank you for all the replies, I bought the gun yesterday but it had to be ordered so it will not be in for another 5-6 days. That being said obviously I have not shot it or played with any type of ammunition. I will be putting a Swarovski scope on it, so the gun will have quality optics on it. This will be a hunting rifle, so I will not be taking 1,000 yards shots. I would like to have confidence that I can put a shot in the 10 ring at 300-500 yards, obviously as long as I do my part. I want it to shoot sub MOA at 100 yards guarantee, so if its not I know it was me and not the rifle. As long as I do my part I would like the rifle to be shoot 1 inch groups at 300 yards. With that all being said and giving a little more information of what the rifle is going to be used for and what I would like for it to do, what does everyone recommend? Also, does anyone know if Aaron could work up a hand load that best fits the rifle, and from there I can either have him work up load each time I need more ammunition or im sure I could take all the data and have someone work up that load. I do not hand load and do not have any equipment to do so but I do know this does help the overall accuracy and consistency of a rifle. Thanks for all the help fellas.


----------



## RB II

TxHunter1214 said:


> Thank you for all the replies, I bought the gun yesterday but it had to be ordered so it will not be in for another 5-6 days. That being said obviously I have not shot it or played with any type of ammunition. I will be putting a Swarovski scope on it, so the gun will have quality optics on it. This will be a hunting rifle, so I will not be taking 1,000 yards shots. I would like to have confidence that I can put a shot in the 10 ring at 300-500 yards, obviously as long as I do my part. I want it to shoot sub MOA at 100 yards guarantee, so if its not I know it was me and not the rifle. As long as I do my part I would like the rifle to be shoot 1 inch groups at 300 yards. With that all being said and giving a little more information of what the rifle is going to be used for and what I would like for it to do, what does everyone recommend? Also, does anyone know if Aaron could work up a hand load that best fits the rifle, and from there I can either have him work up load each time I need more ammunition or im sure I could take all the data and have someone work up that load. I do not hand load and do not have any equipment to do so but I do know this does help the overall accuracy and consistency of a rifle. Thanks for all the help fellas.


IMO, I would replace the trigger with either a Timney or a Jewell. I also don't like the X Mark Pro factory triggers in the Remington rifles. It is already floated, so without the full blown truing of the action, bolt face, etc, IMO, bedding is the next step.

I have shot the HSM brand ammo 168 Berger VLD Hunting and it shoots very well in my rifle, MOA or a little better. I actually used it for hunting this year (2 bullets shot) as I already had it zeroed in vs rezero for the newest hand loads. So that is an immediate option I could recommend on the ammo.

I am sure that someone can work up a hand load for your rifle, not sure about Aaron. It is expensive however. You can almost buy all of the basic reloading equipment for what it costs to get the load recipe custom to your rifle. But reloading isn't for everybody.

I am not certain that you can expect a legitimate and consistent 5 shot 1" group at 300 yds though without the full blown accurizing make over and the perfect reload recipe for the rifle.


----------



## Jungle_Jim

_www.*superiorammo*.com has made some ammo for me. They are outstanding. You can either send them your gun our get a sample box that contains several loads._


----------



## Sgrem

That gun will shoot just fine for hunting targets at 300-500 yds. I went on a safari in August with 50 year old Remington 700 ADL in 7mm....shot a zebra at 450 yards and a baboon at 505yards. It has shot like since my dad took it out of the box 50 years ago. All with factory ammo....

Shoot it. Plan on doing the trigger to your liking. What your asking is a tall order and not necessary for a hunting rig. Think minute of deer....that's my take. 1" groups at 300-400-500+ yards is doable....but over kill. Pun intended.


----------



## tc hardhead

1 inch group at 300 is like saying you want to marry a perfect 10 wife.


----------



## Muddskipper

Aaron just did my rem 700 5R mil spec rifle (300wm)...which is very close to your Sendora

Glass bed, replaced trigger w/ Timeny (2.5 set from factory), rings / mount Seekin which Aaron ordered, my scope (Zeiss).... And we sent it out to have it parkerized....

Muzzle brake- it was already threaded but the brake will take a suppressor ......Aaron put it on a way so when the suppressor heats up it won't screw off when I clean it

Once I found the right load it was deadly.... I started with cheap ammo, and worked my way up......

The rifle will out shoot me and my training.... But I am still putting it through the same hole at 100yrds.....


----------



## RB II

tc hardhead said:


> 1 inch group at 300 is like saying you want to marry a perfect 10 wife.


A unicorn on the "Crazy/Hot" matrix. Lol


----------



## muney pit

sgrem said:


> 1" groups at 300-400-500+ yards is doable....but over kill.


Id love to see a gun that does that. Care to show those groups and the gun. :/


----------



## [email protected]

OK so you're going to want to have the action blue printed and squared up. Will want the action pillar and glass bedded. New Jewel or Timney trigger at 2 to 3 lbs. Barrel free floated. Re crown the barrel as well. You can probably ask for an accurizing job and most likely it will include all of these things but ask exactly what an accurizing job entails to make sure all these things are done. Also get you a scope that goes out to 16 power and send the scope with the rifle so they can lap out your rings and install the scope properly and have them sight it in while it's there. Lapping the rings will ensure that proper contact with the scope is equal. You already have an accurate rifle but having all these things done will make it shoot sub MOA groups with a lot of different ammo instead of just a few. Also having those things done will probably make it a 1/2 MOA gun which is about as good as it gets. With a super accurate gun and a powerful scope and some ballistic software you'll be able to take game at any reasonable distance. You can also have custom turrets made for your scope so you'll be able to dial it in since the software will tell you how many MOA to dial it in at a particular distance. 600 plus yard shots will be easy with some practice.


----------



## Fordzilla06

muney pit said:


> Id love to see a gun that does that. Care to show those groups and the gun. :/


X2


----------



## spurgersalty

muney pit said:


> Id love to see a gun that does that. Care to show those groups and the gun. :/





Fordzilla06 said:


> X2


Maybe this one? http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/04/best-10-shot-1000-yard-group-in-history-be-amazed/


----------



## TxHunter1214

tc hardhead said:


> 1 inch group at 300 is like saying you want to marry a perfect 10 wife.


I guess you have not shot a rifle that has been built recently. This is very common among rifles these days, and people are shooting groups at even further distances. I am not asking for that though because this will be a hunting rifle not a competition rifle, but I do want to be confident that if I do my job and squeeze one off that I will hit where I am aiming (with all the weather, wind, and conditions aside for this conversation).


----------



## muney pit

spurgersalty said:


> Maybe this one? http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/04/best-10-shot-1000-yard-group-in-history-be-amazed/


Thats like compairing a Ferrari f50 to a smart car. That gun,scope, and rests he used is so far from the norm its not even close, & he still cant do it "every day". Not that it takes away from a hell of a group, but it does show what can happen on a perfect day and perfect shooting.

As a side note, I've shot 1 hole 5 shot groups at 300 but no way in hell would i call me our that gun a 1 hole shooter because it cant do it "all day,every day". We can all get lucky, and man does it feel good, untill the next group. LoL


----------



## spurgersalty

muney pit said:


> Thats like compairing a Ferrari f50 to a smart car. That gun,scope, and rests he used is so far from the norm its not even close, & he still cant do it "every day". Not that it takes away from a hell of a group, but it does show what can happen on a perfect day and perfect shooting.
> 
> As a side note, I've shot 1 hole 5 shot groups at 300 but no way in hell would i call me our that gun a 1 hole shooter because it cant do it "all day,every day". We can all get lucky, and man does it feel good, untill the next group. LoL


You asked only to see the rifle capable of doing that and the groups. I gave an example.
Fact of the matter is, there are many rifles capable of doing it, they're just held back by ushwell:
I have few that can and have performed like that, but I can't do it consistently.


----------



## Wado

*One Hole Rifle*

My one hole rifle only shoots them when I am at the range by myself. When there's a crowd it opens up. I guess it's shy. If I had a rig that you could pull out of the rack and cold barrel let three rounds go at three hundred yards that stayed inside two inches, centered of the target I wouldn't hesitate pointing at an animal I wanted to drop. It's all about confidence at this point. I was taught to shoot at hair, not air. Yes, an inch at 300 would be nice and not impossible to pull off.


----------



## andre3k

That's why I always post when we have mid and long range matches at Bayou rifles. I want to see some of these 1/2 moa all day rifles shoot under match conditions.


----------



## Jfreeman

Adjustable front rest, rear rest, good 20x scope. Get a baseline. Try several different brands and bullet weights of ammo.
From there a jewel trigger and have it bedded. If its still not shooting a better barrel. After that would be action work. 

If it still doesn't shoot like you want hand loading can squeeze out even more accuracy. My buddy works up loads and tunes rifles also.


----------



## artys_only

Wado said:


> My one hole rifle only shoots them when I am at the range by myself. When there's a crowd it opens up. I guess it's shy. If I had a rig that you could pull out of the rack and cold barrel let three rounds go at three hundred yards that stayed inside two inches, centered of the target I wouldn't hesitate pointing at an animal I wanted to drop. It's all about confidence at this point. I was taught to shoot at hair, not air. Yes, an inch at 300 would be nice and not impossible to pull off.


Same here ! Best group I have ever had was 2.15 @ 300 yards but I still keep trying to better it .:ac550:


----------



## Wado

andre3k said:


> That's why I always post when we have mid and long range matches at Bayou rifles. I want to see some of these 1/2 moa all day rifles shoot under match conditions.


I was in a gun club a long time ago in Port Lavaca, mainly for once a year sight in for hunting and a little practice. A few times out of the year the club would have some informal shoots. If I remember correctly one thing they did was put up a simple bull's eye with a half inch black center at 100 yards. You got a couple of fowling shots and you could adjust at that time if your one holer was off any. The contest was to see who could hit the closest to center, a walk in the park, right? Anyone that was in the black could advance to 200 and then 300. I don't think out of that group five out of fifteen or so advanced. And it was over at 200. Now keep in mind these were off the shelf deer rifles with very few scopes over nine power except for one guy, Mr Sako 243 Ackley Improved with a Leupold target scope. A tuned target rifle complete with a psychedelic paint job on his custom stock. No trouble finding the little black dot. Same thing at 200, then 300. He had a slight advantage and this wasn't his first rodeo but no feelings were hurt. I left but they did a few more rounds and someone might have got lucky and got one closer than this guy.


----------



## muney pit

andre3k said:


> That's why I always post when we have mid and long range matches at Bayou rifles. I want to see some of these 1/2 moa all day rifles shoot under match conditions.


Yea its funny how you never see those in person huh, not even from the open class guys.


----------



## muney pit

spurgersalty said:


> You asked only to see the rifle capable of doing that and the groups. I gave an example.
> Fact of the matter is, there are many rifles capable of doing it, they're just held back by ushwell:
> I have few that can and have performed like that, but I can't do it consistently.


 I get what your saying, but if it doesnt do it any day any time, its just luck.


----------



## TxHunter1214

spurgersalty said:


> You asked only to see the rifle capable of doing that and the groups. I gave an example.
> Fact of the matter is, there are many rifles capable of doing it, they're just held back by ushwell:
> I have few that can and have performed like that, but I can't do it consistently.


X2.


----------



## Bharvey

TxHunter1214 said:


> I guess you have not shot a rifle that has been built recently. This is very common among rifles these days, and people are shooting groups at even further distances. I am not asking for that though because this will be a hunting rifle not a competition rifle, but I do want to be confident that if I do my job and squeeze one off that I will hit where I am aiming (with all the weather, wind, and conditions aside for this conversation).


I've got a run-of-the-mill Weatherby Vanguard S2 in .308 with a 3-9x50mm Nikon that I can consistently hit milk jugs at 300yds without having done anything to the gun. I'm not really "into" the long-range stuff but I'm confident I can drop a deer at 300yds. That said, if you're really wanting to "do something" to your gun then get done what you want to get done. Personally I think most ordinary out of the box rifles, these days, should be able to put you out to 300yds without any modifications.


----------



## tc hardhead

TxHunter1214 said:


> I guess you have not shot a rifle that has been built recently. This is very common among rifles these days, and people are shooting groups at even further distances. I am not asking for that though because this will be a hunting rifle not a competition rifle, but I do want to be confident that if I do my job and squeeze one off that I will hit where I am aiming (with all the weather, wind, and conditions aside for this conversation).


I didn't say it wasn't possible heck an ugly guy can marry a perfect 10 I'm just saying that's a tough thing to accomplish and you're crazy if you think it's very common to make a remington sendero shoot 1inch groups @ 300 with an accurizing job by a smith. Btw I have shot some full on custom rifles that are very accurate maybe even one 300 win mag that was close to as accurate as you want but nothing was factory about it but the 700 action before it was built but even then most people can't shoot a 1inch group @ 300 anyways.


----------



## cadjockey

Anything beyond a trigger and bedding job on a factory action/barrel is money wasted. Minute of deer at 300 is easy, bass pro sells that.


----------



## spurgersalty

muney pit said:


> I get what your saying, but if it doesnt do it any day any time, its just luck.


Betchor' butte' the next time it happens I'm buying my first lotto ticket then!!!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
And..........................I agreehwell:


----------



## TxHunter1214

tc hardhead said:


> I didn't say it wasn't possible heck an ugly guy can marry a perfect 10 I'm just saying that's a tough thing to accomplish and you're crazy if you think it's very common to make a remington sendero shoot 1inch groups @ 300 with an accurizing job by a smith. Btw I have shot some full on custom rifles that are very accurate maybe even one 300 win mag that was close to as accurate as you want but nothing was factory about it but the 700 action before it was built but even then most people can't shoot a 1inch group @ 300 anyways.


Looks like we are not going to agree on this subject. Rifles these days have the capabilities to do this such thing. I may not be able to do it, but I want the rifle to have the ability to do so. People are shooting the same hole with 3-5 shot groups at 100 yards and your telling me they cant shoot 1" groups at 300 yards? Yes, I know 100 yards and 300 are a big difference but its not uncommon. Sorry I just don't agree.


----------



## RB II

TxHunter1214 said:


> Looks like we are not going to agree on this subject. Rifles these days have the capabilities to do this such thing. I may not be able to do it, but I want the rifle to have the ability to do so. People are shooting the same hole with 3-5 shot groups at 100 yards and your telling me they cant shoot 1" groups at 300 yards? Yes, I know 100 yards and 300 are a big difference but its not uncommon. Sorry I just don't agree.


 I think the point he is trying to make is that a factory Remington barrel/rifle is not good enough quality to shoot the one hole at 100 yards or 1" group at 300 yards. I tend to agree with him. The Sendero action is good enough, but it needs to be trued and squared to reach it's highest potential, not straight from the factory. The barrel is not good enough. I own one and I think it is a GREAT 500 yard hunting rifle, but it isn't a true target rifle.

The Sendero is one of the most accurate factory Remington rifles that you can buy, but it won't compete with a fully custom rifle (700 action, custom barrel, custom float/bedding, custom trigger, full accurization of the action, etc). To get that you have to spend more like $3000+, not $1200 for a Sendero.


----------



## Sgrem

Minute of volleyball kills anything in North America. My hunting rifles are not my target rifles that shoot nickel sized groups. No need to spend three times as much for that. Target rifles sure are fun.....but most are impractical for carrying under the conditions that I hunt in. I enjoy shooting....my hunting rifles shoot groups that will impress most with a ridiculous resume of game killed. 50 years old shoots great.


----------



## michaelbaranowski

First thing I do with a new rifle is shoot it so see if I really need to make it better. I want to shoot at least box a month. No matter of "Accurizing" will do any good if you don't spend time shooting your rifle.


----------



## TxHunter1214

HydraSports said:


> I think the point he is trying to make is that a factory Remington barrel/rifle is not good enough quality to shoot the one hole at 100 yards or 1" group at 300 yards. I tend to agree with him. The Sendero action is good enough, but it needs to be trued and squared to reach it's highest potential, not straight from the factory. The barrel is not good enough. I own one and I think it is a GREAT 500 yard hunting rifle, but it isn't a true target rifle.
> 
> The Sendero is one of the most accurate factory Remington rifles that you can buy, but it won't compete with a fully custom rifle (700 action, custom barrel, custom float/bedding, custom trigger, full accurization of the action, etc). To get that you have to spend more like $3000+, not $1200 for a Sendero.


Thank you for your input, but My original question and reason for this thread was me asking what does everyone recommend to be able to achieve these types of groups or as close too as possible. I understand those types of groups are very tough to achieve through all factory equipment, that's why I am asking what everyone suggests doing to accurize the rifle. This isn't my first rodeo ha. But I do appreciate everyone's input here, I plan on taking it to Aaron Roberts next week if he is back in town, heard he was at a show, and getting his suggestions and start getting it all set up.


----------



## CHARLIE

! inch at 300 yards doesen't happen consistently. Most luck if it happens. Anyone who tells you he can do it every time will probably steal from you too. Give him some room. LOL. Just a note are some folks confusing 1 MOA at 300 to 1 inch at 300 ?


----------



## tc hardhead

CHARLIE said:


> ! inch at 300 yards doesen't happen consistently. Most luck if it happens. Anyone who tells you he can do it every time will probably steal from you too. Give him some room. LOL. Just a note are some folks confusing 1 MOA at 300 to 1 inch at 300 ?


Yes Charlie you are right 1 moa is 3 inches at 300 yds but the OP said 1 inch at 300 not 1 moa. Some people including myself confuse the two sometimes.


----------



## sea sick

HydraSports said:


> IMO, I would replace the trigger with either a Timney or a Jewell. I also don't like the X Mark Pro factory triggers in the Remington rifles. It is already floated, so without the full blown truing of the action, bolt face, etc, IMO, bedding is the next step.
> 
> I have shot the HSM brand ammo 168 Berger VLD Hunting and it shoots very well in my rifle, MOA or a little better. I actually used it for hunting this year (2 bullets shot) as I already had it zeroed in vs rezero for the newest hand loads. So that is an immediate option I could recommend on the ammo.
> 
> I am sure that someone can work up a hand load for your rifle, not sure about Aaron. It is expensive however. You can almost buy all of the basic reloading equipment for what it costs to get the load recipe custom to your rifle. But reloading isn't for everybody.
> 
> _*I am not certain that you can expect a legitimate and consistent 5 shot 1" group at 300 yds though without the full blown accurizing make over and the perfect reload recipe for the rifle*_.


That will be the other half of your equation. Lots of rounds down range to find what that rifle likes to eat. All the customizing won't mean a thing if you can't find out the load it needs... Good luck... nice rifle selection.


----------



## redexpress

Whatever you do...please post back what the work scope is, how long it takes, what it costs and the results. 
I have 2 Remingtons that need serious help. Sendero 264 & a XCR short barrel tactical 308.
Of course it's most likely me that needs to be accurized.


----------



## TxHunter1214

HydraSports said:


> I think the point he is trying to make is that a factory Remington barrel/rifle is not good enough quality to shoot the one hole at 100 yards or 1" group at 300 yards. I tend to agree with him. The Sendero action is good enough, but it needs to be trued and squared to reach it's highest potential, not straight from the factory. The barrel is not good enough. I own one and I think it is a GREAT 500 yard hunting rifle, but it isn't a true target rifle.
> 
> The Sendero is one of the most accurate factory Remington rifles that you can buy, but it won't compete with a fully custom rifle (700 action, custom barrel, custom float/bedding, custom trigger, full accurization of the action, etc). To get that you have to spend more like $3000+, not $1200 for a Sendero.


Sport,
Did you try other ammo before HSM? I have typically always shot federal premium but have been interested in the HSM 168gr. bullets.

When it is all said and done I will be sure to post back the results and feed back from Aaron. I will include timeline and prices as well for anyone else interested in doing work.


----------



## RB II

I didn't try Federal Premium, but I did try several other brands/loads/weights. None that I shot came close to the HSM as far as grouping. At $50/box and not easy to find, it was not my preferred route but I did use it this past season for WT and TransPecos mulies. If you are interested, I have a full box of the HSM 168 Bergers. I am not really going to shoot them, I have reloads now. Let me know and we can work out a deal.

PS, there is another 7 mag Sendero for sale here now, I think he shoots factory ammo in that rifle. His target looks like 3/4" or so MOA. Probably good enough for any hunting scenario.


----------



## TxHunter1214

HydraSports said:


> I didn't try Federal Premium, but I did try several other brands/loads/weights. None that I shot came close to the HSM as far as grouping. At $50/box and not easy to find, it was not my preferred route but I did use it this past season for WT and TransPecos mulies. If you are interested, I have a full box of the HSM 168 Bergers. I am not really going to shoot them, I have reloads now. Let me know and we can work out a deal.
> 
> PS, there is another 7 mag Sendero for sale here now, I think he shoots factory ammo in that rifle. His target looks like 3/4" or so MOA. Probably good enough for any hunting scenario.


Where is that rifle for sale located? I would like to take a look at it and read about it.


----------



## spurgersalty

TxHunter1214 said:


> Where is that rifle for sale located? I would like to take a look at it and read about it.


Here, not a bad price for that setup either.

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=1295594


----------

