# USW contracts



## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Prayers and good vibes for all those that stand to be affected by the current contract negotiations at the refineries & other plants. On both sides... Hoping that cool heads and reasonable outcomes prevail. It's a stressful time if you've been through it.


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

For people who work outside the fence, would you expand a little on what you're talking about?


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm glad I don't have to endure all that any more. Wasn't so bad till USW took over. The old OCAW was best.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

GulfCoast1102 said:


> For people who work outside the fence, would you expand a little on what you're talking about?


Union contracts with USW and oil companies.


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## FINNFOWLER (Sep 2, 2004)

February 2nd is going to be interesting...


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## fishingcacher (Mar 29, 2008)

The low oil prices will mostl likely benefit the oil company as it gives the union a very weak hand


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

fishingcacher said:


> The low oil prices will mostl likely benefit the oil company as it gives the union a very weak hand


High prices didn't give us a strong hand.


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## Bassman5119 (Feb 26, 2008)

Seems all companies these days want low cost, undocumented vacationing migrant workers. Good luck teaching them to run the DCS!!


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Here's what I see( and I spent time as a union dues payer and a company job person) the companies know about all the quater million dollar mortgages and see all the 70k trucks in their parking lots. 

The companies ( I sense and this I'd only my personal opinion) think their hourly guys don't have the " sand" to strike because they 'll crumble fast if they miss a few checks. I might be wrong. 

I do know that I worked for years with young family men that absolutely needed 500 hrs of o/t a year to keep the balloon in the air. 

I hope both sides get a square deal and they keep the money trains Rollin. I think that low crude oil prices hurts the unions position a bit but it's a much harder hit at the drilling/ exploration sector than refining, marketing and transportation.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Bassman5119 said:


> Seems all companies these days want low cost, undocumented vacationing migrant workers. Good luck teaching them to run the DCS!!


For boilermakers, scaffold builders and laborers , yes. For operations.... Not so much.


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## CCRanch (Jul 8, 2006)

Any updates?


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## fishingcacher (Mar 29, 2008)

CCRanch said:


> Any updates?


Most likely there will be no news until the last minute before the contract expires and sometimes the union votes to work without a contract for a short period of time.


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## longhornbubba (Jul 7, 2006)

Most likely extension talks have been slow so far.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

International rejected Shell's latest offer late last night. I don't see an extention coming and it looks like we will be on strike at midnight. Our (Marathon) local issues are not even close, neither side is giving in, been through this many times, it doesn't look good....


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

gater said:


> International rejected Shell's latest offer late last night. I don't see an extention coming and it looks like we will be on strike at midnight. Our (Marathon) local issues are not even close, neither side is giving in, been through this many times, it doesn't look good....


I knew the day would come when Marathon tried to massage the GBR contact to mirror the TRD contract across the street. Good luck. I hope all those young guns have set a few seventh day checks back for a rainy day.


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## LaddH (Sep 29, 2011)

The workers should look hard at the Sherwin Alumina lockout . 
The plant is going strong without them.
http://www.caller.com/news/energy-effects/sherwin-alumina-co-locks-out-unionized-employees_57116754

I have no involvement one way or the other.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

LaddH said:


> The workers should look hard at the Sherwin Alumina lockout .
> The plant is going strong without them.
> http://www.caller.com/news/energy-effects/sherwin-alumina-co-locks-out-unionized-employees_57116754
> 
> I have no involvement one way or the other.


I've witnessed personally the " qualification" process for the replacement workers at the operations level. I'm skeptical . I'll leave it alone past that.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

In the refinery I worked in 21 years, the company was ready to take over if necessary each contract. The company could have easily done away with the union, but for some reason did not. Since all companies are just about money, then surely somehow the represented workforce saved them money in expenses or made them more profit. 

The company also seemed to enjoy treating the represented workers like dog feces on their shoe. It was never a united team effort and morale was always terrible. I did not understand that management style then, and still don't. 

But the bottom line is that the refinery made a fortune, so they must have known what they were doing. I will define fortune in this case: Over a billion in profits in one year from that one facility. Billion with a B, profit not sales, one facility not whole company wide.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Contract*



Stumpgrinder said:


> I knew the day would come when Marathon tried to massage the GBR contact to mirror the TRD contract across the street. Good luck. I hope all those young guns have set a few seventh day checks back for a rainy day.


It didn't take but a couple of weeks after Marathon bought the refinery from BP that we figured out this contract was going to be ugly. It actually got ugly a month before negotiations even started. Most people out here, including many salary folks would take BP back in a heartbeat.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

gater said:


> It didn't take but a couple of weeks after Marathon bought the refinery from BP that we figured out this contract was going to be ugly. It actually got ugly a month before negotiations even started. Most people out here, including many salary folks would take BP back in a heartbeat.


Your only problem is , is that BP ain't coming back. They desperately wanted outta here. Desperately . The deal they accepted to get out from underneath txc was crazy.

Marathon is a lean/ mean entity. I spent lots of years with that red M on my hat. They are a good company but you will sing for your supper under their watch.

I wish you guys well. Lots of good people will get hurt in a long strike.


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## longhornbubba (Jul 7, 2006)

BP needed the money and still needs more money due to the spill in the gulf.They are in danger of a hostile take over if their stock keeps dropping.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*BP*



longhornbubba said:


> BP needed the money and still needs more money due to the spill in the gulf.They are in danger of a hostile take over if their stock keeps dropping.


They did not need the money because of the spill. They talked of getting rid of this place before the spill. The stock, well it always sucked but BP still has plenty of money.

Back to the OP, the International gave Exxon Moblil in Beaumont it's srtike notice last night. At least that's whatbthe Beaumont news is reporting.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

gater said:


> They did not need the money because of the spill. They talked of getting rid of this place before the spill. The stock, well it always sucked but BP still has plenty of money.
> 
> Back to the OP, the International gave Exxon Moblil in Beaumont it's srtike notice last night. At least that's whatbthe Beaumont news is reporting.


Yeah, now my company has to find a placefor about 40 people that might not be working in ExMob come Monday.


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## jaime1982 (Aug 25, 2009)

Sucks for the people that just want to come in and do their jobs! I hope the young guys are well prepared and saved some of that dough. I heard neither side will give in at Lyondell either.


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## Whodathunkit (Aug 25, 2010)

Any updates?


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Updates*



Whodathunkit said:


> Any updates?


As of right now Marathons Galveston Bay, Catlettsburg, and Canton Refineries along with South Houston Green Power, Shell Deer Park and Lyondel Pasadena are all on strike with more to follow.....


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## jaime1982 (Aug 25, 2009)

gater said:


> As of right now Marathons Galveston Bay, Catlettsburg, and Canton Refineries along with South Houston Green Power, Shell Deer Park and Lyondel Pasadena are all on strike with more to follow.....


Dang!


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## hammerdown (Jan 10, 2009)

Yeah it sucks, my Dad is out at Shell DP beginning the "filling in" process right now


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## BullDawg1122 (Sep 29, 2006)

I just heard the same thing, my plant will be next !!!!! Sad deal !!!!


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

I have sat on both sides of the negotiating table, company is wrong 
on this one IMO. Thank goodness I didn't have to make this offer to
a man on the other side of the table.


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## jaime1982 (Aug 25, 2009)

Jack's Pocket said:


> I have sat on both sides of the negotiating table, company is wrong
> on this one IMO..


Can you elaborate as to why you think the company is wrong and not the union. Do you know what the 2nd offer that got rejected was?


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Stumpgrinder said:


> I've witnessed personally the " qualification" process for the replacement workers at the operations level. I'm skeptical . I'll leave it alone past that.


Don't kid yourself my family has three generations through the ( Standard, Amoco, Bp) TC Marathon refinery continuously over the last 80 years. They will run those units. I have been on the Union and Company side.
Thought the same thing when I was a young fire eater till my dad said son. 
Who do you think was running that refinery when you were in diapers. 
Remember an operator said the same thing to me as Management.
I simple replied how many of these units are you qualified to run.
He replied one said son I was an operator on seven of them before you got 
out of Jr High.
Don't kid yourself again I have been there all you need is a few good supervisors and they will supply him all the valve monkeys he needs.

They have called me to come back three times since I retired.
Hope I don't get a call on this because I won't go back on this one.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

jaime1982 said:


> Can you elaborate as to why you think the company is wrong and not the union. Do you know what the 2nd offer that got rejected was?


When you cut through all BS both sides have on paper this is about pensions from what I have read. IMO you don't change pension plans on a man that has played by the rules in the race.
If you want to change it on new hires from this day forward OK a man knows what he is being hired in under.
I was a ranking member in OCAW Local 449 for years Marathon
thinks a lot like old Amoco. BP got a bunch of people spoiled 
by caving on every issue. Mark my words Marathon will
have all its refineries under one benefit policy before this is over.

The sad part is through my life know of a lot of divorces and several suicides that happened during a strike.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Strike*



Jack's Pocket said:


> When you cut through all BS both sides have on paper this is about pensions from what I have read. IMO you don't change pension plans on a man that has played by the rules in the race.
> If you want to change it on new hires from this day forward OK a man knows what he is being hired in under.
> I was a ranking member in OCAW Local 449 for years Marathon
> thinks a lot like old Amoco. BP got a bunch of people spoiled
> ...


Your way off on this one....


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

gater said:


> Your way off on this one....


Not really as I still communicate regularly with people on both sides.
Local issues are a big sticking point in the TC plant
That has nothing to do with an international pull out.
Had the International not went out you would be right know over local 
issues. All by yourself. Been there done that all I can say is if it stays hung 
up over local issues get ready for six months.
The difference today is I don't think ya'll have the backbone to carry 
a picket sign for 5 to 6 months. The company knows it as well
have a workforce in there today that has became enslaved to the Credit Union.

Hard to take you serious when your asking for Halloween as a paid holiday at the local level.
If they don't get a day of overtime most can buy groceries.


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## jaime1982 (Aug 25, 2009)

Jack's Pocket said:


> Don't kid yourself my family has three generations through the ( Standard, Amoco, Bp) TC Marathon refinery continuously over the last 80 years. They will run those units. I have been on the Union and Company side.
> Thought the same thing when I was a young fire eater till my dad said son.
> Who do you think was running that refinery when you were in diapers.
> Remember an operator said the same thing to me as Management.
> ...


Good post


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## BBCAT (Feb 2, 2010)

" BP got a bunch of people spoiled by caving on every issue. " This is especially true after the ISOM explosion when the company got blamed for so much. The Union was swinging the big stick then. With the passage of almost 10 years since that incident and the current conditions, I believe the company is swinging the big stick now.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0L50Z920150201?irpc=932

The USW is seeking *annual pay raises double those of the last agreement. *It also wants work that has been given in the past to nonunion contractors to start going to USW members, a tighter policy to prevent workplace fatigue, *and reductions in members' out-of-pocket payments for healthcare.*

It's all about the money. Health care becomes expensive, they start looking for someone else to pay for their portion. Can you say gimmidat?
The sad but funny thing is, the unions always throw out the "safety" card during negotiations, and this time is no different.

"tighter policy to prevent workplace fatigue"
The operators, for the most part (barring shutdowns), are given a choice to work overtime. They can turn it down if they're too tired, correct?
Why were they called out in the first place? A fellow operator on another shift called in sick or was on vacation? So now its the company's fault and they have to do something about it???


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## tcbayman (Apr 27, 2006)

spurgersalty said:


> http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0L50Z920150201?irpc=932
> 
> The USW is seeking *annual pay raises double those of the last agreement. *It also wants work that has been given in the past to nonunion contractors to start going to USW members, a tighter policy to prevent workplace fatigue, *and reductions in members' out-of-pocket payments for healthcare.*
> 
> ...




Im a non union operator and I can promise you working overtime is not a choice its a requirement, and those 60 day death march shutdowns is where workplace fatigue comes into play. By the way I am not complaining or taking sides just saying overtime is far from optional.


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

tcbayman said:


> [/B]
> 
> Im a non union operator and I can promise you working overtime is not a choice its a requirement, and those 60 day death march shutdowns is where workplace fatigue comes into play. By the way I am not complaining or taking sides just saying overtime is far from optional.


Wrong. I can not force any of my guys to work overtime. Can not. All I can do is ask. That is it.
And we are non union.


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## tcbayman (Apr 27, 2006)

So how do you cover all your jobs? Just run short handed?


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## spurgersalty (Jun 29, 2010)

tcbayman said:


> So how do you cover all your jobs? Just run short handed?


Either that, or I ASK other hands from different jobs if they want some overtime. If they don't, we run short handed.


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## tcbayman (Apr 27, 2006)

spurgersalty said:


> Either that, or I ASK other hands from different jobs if they want some overtime. If they don't, we run short handed.


Well thats not how it is done out here. We have 2 off shift operators on call 24/7/365 and if that phone rings you can run the list but if no one takes you are forced. No if ands or buts about it. Its not optional. The other site i worked at scheduled coverage. You had to work 65% of your scheduled OT. If you turned down a scheduled day low man was forced again not optional. Maybe yall don't force overtime but most places do. So before you say someone is wrong you really should get a clue.


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## Shrimpy26 (Oct 25, 2013)

Jack's Pocket said:


> Don't kid yourself my family has three generations through the ( Standard, Amoco, Bp) TC Marathon refinery continuously over the last 80 years. They will run those units. I have been on the Union and Company side.
> Thought the same thing when I was a young fire eater till my dad said son.
> Who do you think was running that refinery when you were in diapers.
> Remember an operator said the same thing to me as Management.
> ...


First off, I ALSO have sat on both sides of the table. The highlighted portion above may have been true 25 years ago but NOT today. With the rules in place now, both government (OSHA, DOT, FRC), and company (you have to hunt for them), it is almost impossible to stay qualified LEGALLY on more then two MAYBE three jobs. The company may not enforce it, but DOT to name just one, requires re-qualification on jobs if a person goes 120 days without working it. Now, like I said, do the companies follow this? It depends on who and how it benefits them. We can spend all day arguing semantics, but those are the rules.

And to the poster who questions requiring someone to work O/T........it happens.........and sometimes a lot. Just because the company YOU work for does not "require" it, doesn't mean it does not happen.

This, and most EVERY strike, is ALWAYS about money. Yes Safety has become a larger portion through the years, but by and far it is the money.


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## Shrimpy26 (Oct 25, 2013)

spurgersalty said:


> Either that, or I ASK other hands from different jobs if they want some overtime. If they don't, we run short handed.


Let an accident happen, and if YOU are the supervisor in charge, you WILL be sitting in a court of law facing charges.

If you truly are a supervisor, you had better educate yourself on your responsibilities and requirements if dragged into a court of law. Your mis-understanding of operational requirements could leave you sitting in the crossbar hotel for a long time. And if you think the company will be there to "support" their supervisor, you are sadly mistaken.


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## rippin lips (Jan 8, 2005)

I'm officially on STRIKE. Looks like more time to fish? Stay strong brothers and sisters. USW.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Good luck and prayers for sane, calm & a sense of fairness.

Marathon especially will be very, very stubborn if I had to bet.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

spurgersalty said:


> http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0L50Z920150201?irpc=932
> 
> The USW is seeking *annual pay raises double those of the last agreement. *It also wants work that has been given in the past to nonunion contractors to start going to USW members, a tighter policy to prevent workplace fatigue, *and reductions in members' out-of-pocket payments for healthcare.*
> 
> ...


. Everybody here's jumping all over the "workplace fatigue" issue: nobody seems to want to touch explaining all the demanded freebies... Gimmedat.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Shrimpy26 said:


> First off, I ALSO have sat on both sides of the table. The highlighted portion above may have been true 25 years ago but NOT today. With the rules in place now, both government (OSHA, DOT, FRC), and company (you have to hunt for them), it is almost impossible to stay qualified LEGALLY on more then two MAYBE three jobs. The company may not enforce it, but DOT to name just one, requires re-qualification on jobs if a person goes 120 days without working it. Now, like I said, do the companies follow this? It depends on who and how it benefits them. We can spend all day arguing semantics, but those are the rules.
> 
> And to the poster who questions requiring someone to work O/T........it happens.........and sometimes a lot. Just because the company YOU work for does not "require" it, doesn't mean it does not happen.
> 
> This, and most EVERY strike, is ALWAYS about money. Yes Safety has become a larger portion through the years, but by and far it is the money.


I know all about OSHA 1910 certification and recertification.
Actually taught it for several units out there and wrote it for a couple of others in East and West Plant. I could walk in and pass the testing and walk through today. As a fault I might have been a Sorry SOB but I was never lazy. Was offered jobs by a couple other refineries after retirement to set up their training program and just laughed they were 
absolutely out of their mind. That is a nightmare. 
I keept my certs up even when in management.
Retired because I was sick and tired of spending time in court
every time some one stumped their toe some where in the refinery and caring every kind of communication device known to man to deal with an endless stream of government BS.

After growing up in a house hold supported by that site going to work
as a laborer for the site sitting in negotiations for both union and company 
at that site, from laborer building scaffold on units that don't exist on the site anymore to the guy in charge nights weekends and holidays the third generation still working at that site. After three generations having 80 combined years in that refinery I only put in 30+ I think I have the pulse.

My conclusion is nobody wins when it gets here.


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## Wakeup (Oct 25, 2004)

*Royal Dutch Shell Posts Rise in Earnings Despite Lower Oil Prices*

 Shell Oil made more money in 2014 than they did in 2013 even with lower gas prices. The units that made Shell that money is operated with well-trained Union Workers. So how does Shell Oil repay the Union Workers for making them more money than the previous year, they want to cut their benefits and lower safety standers. Itâ€™s all about trying to make more money even if it creates a negative impact for their employees.  
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/30/business/international/royal-dutch-shell-q4-earnings.html?_r=0

We stand in Solidary my friend. 
Mark Z
USW13-1


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Wakeup said:


> Shell Oil made more money in 2014 than they did in 2013 even with lower gas prices. The units that made Shell that money is operated with well-trained Union Workers. So how does Shell Oil repay the Union Workers for making them more money than the previous year, they want to cut their benefits and lower safety standers. Itâ€™s all about trying to make more money even if it creates a negative impact for their employees.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/30/business/international/royal-dutch-shell-q4-earnings.html?_r=0
> 
> We stand in Solidary my friend.
> ...


I get it. I do. But...... 3/2/1 crack spreads are negative right now. It's temporary I know but that is the reality of the fight you are in.

It's just common sense that we must all acknowledge reality.

The hourly guys are getting the high hard one on the timing / market conditions basis of these negotiations


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## bill (May 21, 2004)

I hope cool heads prevail and the people effected can get back to work quickly.


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## fishin shallow (Jul 31, 2005)

spurgersalty said:


> Either that, or I ASK other hands from different jobs if they want some overtime. If they don't, we run short handed.





Shrimpy26 said:


> Let an accident happen, and if YOU are the supervisor in charge, you WILL be sitting in a court of law facing charges.
> 
> If you truly are a supervisor, you had better educate yourself on your responsibilities and requirements if dragged into a court of law. Your mis-understanding of operational requirements could leave you sitting in the crossbar hotel for a long time. And if you think the company will be there to "support" their supervisor, you are sadly mistaken.


Sounds like spurgersalty needs to spend more time getting positions filled to get the job done safely and less time on the www


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

anybody who knows. Are they really asking for 5/5/5 % increases at international ? 

Salty ... if so


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## Mad Mike (Dec 28, 2005)

Stumpgrinder said:


> anybody who knows. Are they really asking for 5/5/5 % increases at international ?
> 
> Salty ... if so


They asked for a substantial raise like always from what I've been told. Even if they were to ask for 5%, it would get negotiated to the normal 1.5% - 3% increase that we've received the last several contracts.


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## BullDawg1122 (Sep 29, 2006)

I'm a USW paying member, just talked to a committeeman and he said it was Shell that walked away last night. The raise was 2,2,2.5 percent, they've come up from 1,1, and 1 percent. I hope this stuff get over soon.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Mad Mike said:


> They asked for a substantial raise like always from what I've been told. Even if they were to ask for 5%, it would get negotiated to the normal 1.5% - 3% increase that we've received the last several contracts.


Take the money and run if y'all can get 2 - 2.5 % a year. IMHO.

I paid ocaw/ usw dues for many years.

I don't envy you boys and I stand to get hammered in this deal too. I work for a decon company and I know danged well t/a work will slow to nothing at striking facilities


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## Wakeup (Oct 25, 2004)

*It's not that simple.*

I cannot speak for the committee, but money was not the reason for the strike. Yes it matters, but the biggest issue was language changes. It would be hard for you to understand without working in this industry.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Stumpgrinder said:


> I get it. I do. But...... 3/2/1 crack spreads are negative right now. It's temporary I know but that is the reality of the fight you are in.
> 
> It's just common sense that we must all acknowledge reality.
> 
> The hourly guys are getting the high hard one on the timing / market conditions basis of these negotiations


Never beneficial for the Union hand to strike in low crude prices.
This looks a lot like the 1980 Nation wide lockout.
When the crack spreads got back in line most went back to work except
TC we were hung up another 2 months on local issues five and half month total. 1974 was the bone headed one in TC went out in August by our self. 
It will be as it always has been it will be settled in back rooms in sub committee with side deals then the man behind the curtain will say it is over.
All the other stuff the Media, Company or Union put out is BS and smoke and mirrors until then.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Wakeup said:


> I cannot speak for the committee, but money was not the reason for the strike. Yes it matters, but the biggest issue was language changes. It would be hard for you to understand without working in this industry.


Cat still down at Marathon TC along with the Scott unit? 
If so TC refinery is limited to run the heavier high sulfur crudes. 
Crude wise not really hurt as sweet crude is cheap right now.
Run the Pipestills 3A an B on a sweeter blend until the Scott unit can be returned to service. 
Change the operating parameters on the Hyrocracker(Ultracracker) to make more Iso for the Alky buy needed BB's, yields will be better on the reformers with lower sulfur and nitrogen feeds. I would imagine #3 Ultraformer(reformer) is running 60 mbpd and #4 50 mbpd they will Cadillac right there and never even hiccup. Number 3 Cat is probably loafing at 90 mbpd.
Now depending on how bad they want to maximize crude #1 Cat being down would really hurt.
Problem is I can't imagine them wanting to maximize crude right now. Be like 1980 leave it down till yall return like they did several then. They will continue to repair it in case it is needed.
Just like the did # 2 Ultra in 80 had a problem shut it down moved over and cranked up #1.
Nothing is to big a deal in that refinery unless the unit has a 3 in front of it. #3 Cat, PS, Alky, Ultra then Houston we have a problem.


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

Stumpgrinder said:


> I get it. I do. But...... 3/2/1 crack spreads are negative right now. It's temporary I know but that is the reality of the fight you are in.
> 
> It's just common sense that we must all acknowledge reality.
> 
> The hourly guys are getting the high hard one on the timing / market conditions basis of these negotiations


 Sounds like 2009 all over again. All of 2008 it was talk of strike for sure. Then the economy tanked and the strike talk got quiet. 
If this lasts long it will be tough to get those on strike construction jobs. Projects are slowing down or being cancelled completely.
Glad I'm finished.


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

spurgersalty said:


> Either that, or I ASK other hands from different jobs if they want some overtime. If they don't, we run short handed.


 Are you talking about Operations in a plant?
It's tough to run a plant short handed. The Cat Cracker Operator can't run the Olefins Plant furnaces at the same time. Or, use to couldn't.
Somebody has to stay. Like it or not. Or used to.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

redexpress said:


> Sounds like 2009 all over again. All of 2008 it was talk of strike for sure. Then the economy tanked and the strike talk got quiet.
> If this lasts long it will be tough to get those on strike construction jobs. Projects are slowing down or being cancelled completely.
> Glad I'm finished.


1980 was tough run away inflation the economy was in the septic tank.
Don't ever want to relive that.
US Marshals showing up at my door at 2 am to arrest me because I wouldn't
order the picket line down at the docks.
Got that t shirt.


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

Any word what CPChem is doing?


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

Jack's Pocket said:


> 1980 was tough run away inflation the economy was in the septic tank.
> Don't ever want to relive that.
> US Marshals showing up at my door at 2 am to arrest me because I wouldn't
> order the picket line down at the docks.
> Got that t shirt.


 Yeah 1980 was bad. I just missed the 1973 strike. 
So, can somebody briefly explain what the companies are asking?
Sounds like they want to change pensions, or just do away with them. I think Shell has changed them in Europe.


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## Bocephus (May 30, 2008)

Pensions will soon be a thing of the past....even in the oil patch.


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## goldie (Nov 17, 2008)

Wakeup said:


> I cannot speak for the committee, but money was not the reason for the strike. Yes it matters, but the biggest issue was language changes. It would be hard for you to understand without working in this industry.


X2 you are right on ! People outside of this industry don't even have a clue about "life inside the gates".Most of todays generation looks down at people that wear hard hats and have their name on their shirt. Don't be jealous, leave the safety of your desk job and don't be afraid to put your family and health aside for a pay check. I do not think too many people are willing to samples that have the potential to burn right through your gloves or blind you, but yet are willing to complain about Union workers wanting more Health and safety perks.


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

goldie said:


> X2 you are right on ! People outside of this industry don't even have a clue about "life inside the gates".Most of todays generation looks down at people that wear hard hats and have their name on their shirt. Don't be jealous, leave the safety of your desk job and don't be afraid to put your family and health aside for a pay check. I do not think too many people are willing to samples that have the potential to burn right through your gloves or blind you, but yet are willing to complain about Union workers wanting more Health and safety perks.


"Life inside the gates" what does that mean? There are a lot of today's generation that are serving "outside the gates". They don't wear hard hats, they wear helmets and have their names on their shirts. I really doubt you are jealous of their jobs, no desks, they certainly put their family and their lives, not just their health on the line for a paycheck.

Now here is the ironic part, they are not complaining about your health and safety perks. They are defending your right to collective bargaining. 
Might be a good idea to step back and ask yourself how you got in this position, going on strike is a choice.

If you think you made the right choice, then good on you. Please don't make out that you are in more danger than other folks and want more safety regs.

You live with the choices you make in life.


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## bill (May 21, 2004)

Lagunaroy said:


> "Life inside the gates" what does that mean? There are a lot of today's generation that are serving "outside the gates". They don't wear hard hats, they wear helmets and have their names on their shirts. I really doubt you are jealous of their jobs, no desks, they certainly put their family and their lives, not just their health on the line for a paycheck.
> 
> Now here is the ironic part, they are not complaining about your health and safety perks. They are defending your right to collective bargaining.
> Might be a good idea to step back and ask yourself how you got in this position, going on strike is a choice.
> ...


Don't forget that 1% pay raise the Military is getting this year. Add in those that might have wanted to spend a career in the Military and retire were given the boot....thanks for your service but we don't need you any more.


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## Mad Mike (Dec 28, 2005)

Bocephus said:


> Pensions will soon be a thing of the past....even in the oil patch.


Marathon stopped our pension about 5 years ago and it's frozen. I will get $400 a month whether I retire now or in 20 years.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Lagunaroy said:


> "Life inside the gates" what does that mean? There are a lot of today's generation that are serving "outside the gates". They don't wear hard hats, they wear helmets and have their names on their shirts. I really doubt you are jealous of their jobs, no desks, they certainly put their family and their lives, not just their health on the line for a paycheck.
> 
> Now here is the ironic part, they are not complaining about your health and safety perks. They are defending your right to collective bargaining.
> Might be a good idea to step back and ask yourself how you got in this position, going on strike is a choice.
> ...


He really doesn't either it was pretty dang good when I got there in 1974.
My dad and his generation had done the heavy lifting on retirement, sick leave
paid holidays vacation and so on. My generation got after the Safety side.
Your are 100% correct about choices I got off the school bus and went to work
in the refinery and was glad I got it. Got hauled out of there twice in an ambulance and went right back in. Both times was due to idiot not following safety procedure.
Amazing we don't glow in the dark
I can't even imagine what it was like in 1941 when my dad started there.
Most of his bunch died of weird cancers, most of mine retired.


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## longhornbubba (Jul 7, 2006)

Since you are such a know it all Jack's Pocket tell me how the coker and sru are holding up?And no wages are not the problem pension language and health benefit are!And all you non-union guys will be next if the cut us and you know it you already make more than we do to keep you non-union.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

Somebody wanna translate that last sentence? Must be some kind of secret union code.


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## CopeKB (Jul 2, 2012)

They are paying non union folks a little bit more to hopefully keep them from forming a union. If the union falls. Non union folks will lose pay and benefits too.


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## InfamousJ (May 21, 2004)

CopeKB said:


> They are paying non union folks a little bit more to hopefully keep them from forming a union. If the union falls. Non union folks will lose pay and benefits too.


They aren't paid a little more due to cost savings of being non-union?


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

After reading all this, I'm sure glad we're not union. Too much drama.


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## outdoorsmanjimjo (Jan 26, 2012)

That used to be true, That's where your wrong, the union is making more than the non union plants, our union plants pay more than our non union and better benifits as of today.


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## Jaysand247 (Aug 19, 2012)

We have a split work force at our plant . The guys that have been there for more than 10 years have 2 pension plans . We have one . The company took away one of the old hands pensions in this contract but gave them an extra 6 percent in 401 to do so . Those of us with one plan stay with lower 401 match . The reason they did this is the company wanted to get rid of pension all together . They have enough votes with the older crowd, now anyone hired after feb 1 2015 won't have pension . Splitting the work force again . In 15 years or so they will take away more by offering something to guys getting ready to retire . We all pay the same dues and should have the same compensation . I feel we aren't represented equally . This and the fact that unions give millions to the democrats makes it hard for me to pay my union dues.


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## GulfCoast1102 (Dec 30, 2013)

I just learned of all of this hullabaloo. Interesting to say the least. As an engineer working for an EPC, i've personally done a good bit of work for the Marathon GBR plant, as well as numerous other in the area. In fact, i've got a mess of paperwork laying on my desk right now for Marathon GBR. I'm curious what effect the strike will have on the project i'm working on.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

longhornbubba said:


> Since you are such a know it all Jack's Pocket tell me how the coker and sru are holding up?And no wages are not the problem pension language and health benefit are!And all you non-union guys will be next if the cut us and you know it you already make more than we do to keep you non-union.


I could find out for you?
Never worked the Coker complex but I was an operator on the SRU. Post me back after May 11th we will find out how much 
backbone is left. Also post back if you were willing and arrested for the rights you are fighting for off the picket line and in your home. I was and a lot of of others in 80 so you could enjoy the milk and honey. You are just now getting a taste of what 2 generations of my family fought for us and those to follow.
Just wait till you get the letter in the mail your fired if you don't report for such and such date.
That one is for your wife and shortly after a bunch have borrowed everything they could from the credit union the divorce rates start going up. I hope you never hear then some of the guys you worked with blew there brains out. Or died for other reasons I took collections to four widows during that one.
You might learn howto survive one of these a little easier if you listened to us who have already
carried a picket sign.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

I would have voted to walk as well if I was still caring a card.
Your bargaining position is not good from jump street.
I hope you keep it all, going to have to stiffen up on this one with 47, 48 dollar a barrel oil.
Only seen one last less than three months from my childhood through working there and that was 1969.
Contracts used to expire June 1st either 1959 or 61 
took care of that it lasted 6 months. Almost forgot they laid off about a third of the workforce
after that one.
Thank goodness I was just a kid then.
But I got to watch and live some eye opening experiences.
Just trying to give a little taste of reality.
Be careful on the line as well remember a few being hit and run over and a stabbing as well in 80
this will get uglier every day it goes on.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

I've got friends picketing right now and other friends that are begrudgingly inside doing " replacement duty" ( don't you dare call them scabs, they knew the deal for decades and the rest of us did too. It's what happens) 

Nobody wins here . But I can tell anybody willing to listen the following. 1. Pensions are going away. Be grateful you have a lucrative matching 401 k plan and take full advantage of it. 2 . You darn well don't need a million dollar a year boutique safety process with committees and jackets and lots of free meals to be safe. Safety is you, individually, making the right decision every time. You know the rules, follow them. You know what's unsafe, don't do it. Period . The end. 3. We ran those places for a hundred years without PTEC apprentice programs. It's a loser to insist on that. 4. Forced o/t is gonna happen. You don't want them to staff at levels where forced o/t never happens. You know it and I do too. You, me , we all agreed to work o/t when we happily accepted these gigs. And yes, I've been forced on Christmas Eve. Numerous times. 5. My gut tells me I don't deserve to be paid for work I did not do. Fatigue days are mandated on these companies . Asking for money for nothing is not going to fly. ( the union leadership is claiming this isn't about money and asking for free money ruins credibility here) 

So there it is. My honest take. Remember this, I've been there and done that . I've got the acid and KOH burn scars to prove it ( and yes , they were my fault. I took shortcuts and got what I had coming) 

Be smart y'all. I want y'all to work, prosper, live , love and retire young and well. But, be smart . I'll tell you what I was told the first time we voted to accept a proposal. " the last contract you worked under is the best one you'll ever have" I still believe that and don't see that changing. I'm praying for y'all and wish you well.


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## jaime1982 (Aug 25, 2009)

Stumpgrinder said:


> I've got friends picketing right now and other friends that are begrudgingly inside doing " replacement duty" ( don't you dare call them scabs, they knew the deal for decades and the rest of us did too. It's what happens)
> 
> Nobody wins here . But I can tell anybody willing to listen the following. 1. Pensions are going away. Be grateful you have a lucrative matching 401 k plan and take full advantage of it. 2 . You darn well don't need a million dollar a year boutique safety process with committees and jackets and lots of free meals to be safe. Safety is you, individually, making the right decision every time. You know the rules, follow them. You know what's unsafe, don't do it. Period . The end. 3. We ran those places for a hundred years without PTEC apprentice programs. It's a loser to insist on that. 4. Forced o/t is gonna happen. You don't want them to staff at levels where forced o/t never happens. You know it and I do too. You, me , we all agreed to work o/t when we happily accepted these gigs. And yes, I've been forced on Christmas Eve. Numerous times. 5. My gut tells me I don't deserve to be paid for work I did not do. Fatigue days are mandated on these companies . Asking for money for nothing is not going to fly. ( the union leadership is claiming this isn't about money and asking for free money ruins credibility here)
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## BBCAT (Feb 2, 2010)

longhornbubba said:


> Since you are such a know it all Jack's Pocket tell me how the coker and sru are holding up?And no wages are not the problem pension language and health benefit are!And all you non-union guys will be next if the cut us and you know it you already make more than we do to keep you non-union.


I don't know about the SRU but on the Coker you need one good board man and one good outside man directing the switches and other activities plus someone to cut the drums. It would be tough at first but once the replacements get the hang of the routine it would get better. I hope this a short term problem and folks get back to work.


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## 47741 (Jan 5, 2010)

Wakeup said:


> Shell Oil made more money in 2014 than they did in 2013 even with lower gas prices. The units that made Shell that money is operated with well-trained Union Workers. So how does Shell Oil repay the Union Workers for making them more money than the previous year, they want to cut their benefits and lower safety standers. Itâ€™s all about trying to make more money even if it creates a negative impact for their employees.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/30/business/international/royal-dutch-shell-q4-earnings.html?_r=0
> 
> We stand in Solidary my friend.
> ...


Surprising as it may be to some of you, Shell is way more than a singular profitable downstream unit. While they may have some "record" profits, is stretched rather thin right now, financially. Be happy you get any raise.

Does Wal-Mart pay their employees more when they have a good year? No. Do most companies? Nope. You were hired to show up and do your task. Do it, or move on.

Funny thing about unions, they keep everyone's pay DOWN. But hey, keep believing that the big guys are looking out for your with their calls for safety & benefits.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

The thing I just can't wrap my head around is the mentality that makes people think they're entitled to automatic raises. If you do your job enough to make you worth more, you deserve a raise. If your company makes more money as a result of your specific work over a long period, you deserve a raise. You don't deserve a raise because you paid union dues. 

Yes, the companies had a good year: the short-sighted among us will tell you that they need to spread the wealth, that it's unconscionable to not give raises after a 2014. I'll give you a heads-up here: 2014 can't stand on its own. You want a raise because of 2014, to be followed with one in 2015, etc etc. etc. ad nauseum... In the real world, the company builds financial strength in 2014, doesn't throw raises out like beads at mardi gras as a result, and thus has the wherewithal to continue your employment even when the bottom drops out in 2015.. You then still have a job to come back to in 2016 for the start of the next boom.. Successful companies work in 5, 10, 15, etc. year plans, not "we've got cash, let's blow it".. It's called capital investment, and it's what keeps you employed, and what will give your kids a job too.

The gimmedat mentality is strong.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

BBCAT said:


> I don't know about the SRU but on the Coker you need one good board man and one good outside man directing the switches and other activities plus someone to cut the drums. It would be tough at first but once the replacements get the hang of the routine it would get better. I hope this a short term problem and folks get back to work.


I did not work Coker, but feel they would be the hardest units to take over. They are essentially batch process and end of the line. You can't keep eating if you can't poop.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Stumpgrinder said:


> I've got friends picketing right now and other friends that are begrudgingly inside doing " replacement duty" ( don't you dare call them scabs, they knew the deal for decades and the rest of us did too. It's what happens)
> 
> Nobody wins here . But I can tell anybody willing to listen the following. 1. Pensions are going away. Be grateful you have a lucrative matching 401 k plan and take full advantage of it. 2 . You darn well don't need a million dollar a year boutique safety process with committees and jackets and lots of free meals to be safe. Safety is you, individually, making the right decision every time. You know the rules, follow them. You know what's unsafe, don't do it. Period . The end. 3. We ran those places for a hundred years without PTEC apprentice programs. It's a loser to insist on that. 4. Forced o/t is gonna happen. You don't want them to staff at levels where forced o/t never happens. You know it and I do too. You, me , we all agreed to work o/t when we happily accepted these gigs. And yes, I've been forced on Christmas Eve. Numerous times. 5. My gut tells me I don't deserve to be paid for work I did not do. Fatigue days are mandated on these companies . Asking for money for nothing is not going to fly. ( the union leadership is claiming this isn't about money and asking for free money ruins credibility here)
> 
> ...


Your right this will be messed up for years.
I rode out of the plant on more than one occasion in the back 
of an ambulance on a gurney.


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## Wakeup (Oct 25, 2004)

*We are not making cotton candy out here.*

Shell is an energy company. The upstream division drills for or buys the oil on the open market. Shell is not making money at this point. Shell makes it money turning that oil into gasoline, lube oil, jp5, diesel, plastics and many other products. All of this work is completed in the down steam division of our refineryâ€™s and chemical plants. We have union workers on both sides.
You are making comparisons of Walmart employees and Operators. It takes years of training and experience to learn how to run these units. This all goes back to not knowing the industry. You really just have to live the life to understand. Yes, the company has many rules on the books. The rules are mostly a guide, they start shortcutting them if it interferes with profits. This is sad but true; all of us inside the gate have seen this happen. This is where most of contract issues come up.
You may think, these shortcuts do not have anything to do with you. You are just a bystander and the outcome doesnâ€™t affect you. You would be mistaken. There is no barrier separating the unitâ€™s boundaries and the air you breathe every day. We also discharge treated water into your water ways 24/7/365. I was able to speak up many times that kept things where it should be even though it was more costly. Had we been a nonunion plant they could have fired me and proceed with the cheaper route as I was being driven to the gate. Who do you want keeping an eye on that for you? We are not making cotton candy out here
As far as the union keeping our pay down, we didnâ€™t lose money or our jobs in 2009 when the market crashed. We weathered that storm without missing a beat. I will stick with the union. 
We stand in solidarity my friend
_
Mark Z
USW13-1_


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Whitebassfisher said:


> I did not work Coker, but feel they would be the hardest units to take over. They are essentially batch process and end of the line. You can't keep eating if you can't poop.


You can sweeten and lighten the crude blend and slow that
batch operation way down. You could change the blends till you only needed one or two of the three.

Another tidbit for you boys that are out right now.
If this goes on for a couple three months.
Don't expect to go back the day after the contract is signed.
If they do like in the past the company will slowly call you 
back over two weeks in the transition period.
Now you really need to keep a cool head and your mouth shut. You operators will have a company man working right 
beside you during this time. Emotions are high don't be stupid.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Wakeup said:


> Shell is an energy company. The upstream division drills for or buys the oil on the open market. Shell is not making money at this point. Shell makes it money turning that oil into gasoline, lube oil, jp5, diesel, plastics and many other products. All of this work is completed in the down steam division of our refineryâ€™s and chemical plants. We have union workers on both sides.
> You are making comparisons of Walmart employees and Operators. It takes years of training and experience to learn how to run these units. This all goes back to not knowing the industry. You really just have to live the life to understand. Yes, the company has many rules on the books. The rules are mostly a guide, they start shortcutting them if it interferes with profits. This is sad but true; all of us inside the gate have seen this happen. This is where most of contract issues come up.
> You may think, these shortcuts do not have anything to do with you. You are just a bystander and the outcome doesnâ€™t affect you. You would be mistaken. There is no barrier separating the unitâ€™s boundaries and the air you breathe every day. We also discharge treated water into your water ways 24/7/365. I was able to speak up many times that kept things where it should be even though it was more costly. Had we been a nonunion plant they could have fired me and proceed with the cheaper route as I was being driven to the gate. Who do you want keeping an eye on that for you? We are not making cotton candy out here
> As far as the union keeping our pay down, we didnâ€™t lose money or our jobs in 2009 when the market crashed. We weathered that storm without missing a beat. I will stick with the union.
> ...


You mean there are no vapor barrier chain link fences?
USW Local 13-227 Retired


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Whitebassfisher said:


> I did not work Coker, but feel they would be the hardest units to take over. They are essentially batch process and end of the line. You can't keep eating if you can't poop.





Jack's Pocket said:


> You can sweeten and lighten the crude blend and slow that
> batch operation way down. You could change the blends till you only needed one or two of the three.


The whole refinery needs to operate in unison. There is no other way.

I can't speak for any refinery but the one I worked at. I was represented the entire time. The money was always good. The benefits were always good. But that refinery was the only thing in my life I have ever hated, because their management style was to treat the hourly workforce like dog chit all the time. It grew old. I never was treated so sub-human in my life. It was not the immediate supervisors... they were fine, but rather the very top of the chain that hated us and told us so daily.


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## flatscat1 (Jun 2, 2005)

Wakeup said:


> Shell is an energy company. The upstream division drills for or buys the oil on the open market. Shell is not making money at this point. Shell makes it money turning that oil into gasoline, lube oil, jp5, diesel, plastics and many other products. All of this work is completed in the down steam division of our refineryâ€™s and chemical plants. We have union workers on both sides.
> You are making comparisons of Walmart employees and Operators. It takes years of training and experience to learn how to run these units. This all goes back to not knowing the industry. You really just have to live the life to understand. Yes, the company has many rules on the books. *The rules are mostly a guide, they start shortcutting them if it interferes with profits. This is sad but true; all of us inside the gate have seen this happen. This is where most of contract issues come up.*
> You may think, these shortcuts do not have anything to do with you. You are just a bystander and the outcome doesnâ€™t affect you. You would be mistaken. There is no barrier separating the unitâ€™s boundaries and the air you breathe every day. We also discharge treated water into your water ways 24/7/365. I was able to speak up many times that kept things where it should be even though it was more costly. Had we been a nonunion plant they could have fired me and proceed with the cheaper route as I was being driven to the gate. Who do you want keeping an eye on that for you? We are not making cotton candy out here
> As far as the union keeping our pay down, we didnâ€™t lose money or our jobs in 2009 when the market crashed. We weathered that storm without missing a beat. I will stick with the union.
> ...


If a publicly traded company asks you to do something illegal, against the rules, against the normal procedures, unsafe practices, etc. for the purpose of profits, then they are themselves breaking the law. Every public company has procedures in place for you to voice your concerns, without threat of repercussions. It is actually your obligation as an employee to do so.

You cannot tell me that a union is required for this - all public companies, uniionized or not, have anonymous whistleblower procedures and protections in place.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Wakeup said:


> Shell is an energy company. The upstream division drills for or buys the oil on the open market. Shell is not making money at this point. Shell makes it money turning that oil into gasoline, lube oil, jp5, diesel, plastics and many other products. All of this work is completed in the down steam division of our refineryâ€™s and chemical plants. We have union workers on both sides.
> You are making comparisons of Walmart employees and Operators. It takes years of training and experience to learn how to run these units. This all goes back to not knowing the industry. You really just have to live the life to understand. Yes, the company has many rules on the books. The rules are mostly a guide, they start shortcutting them if it interferes with profits. This is sad but true; all of us inside the gate have seen this happen. This is where most of contract issues come up.
> You may think, these shortcuts do not have anything to do with you. You are just a bystander and the outcome doesnâ€™t affect you. You would be mistaken. There is no barrier separating the unitâ€™s boundaries and the air you breathe every day. We also discharge treated water into your water ways 24/7/365. I was able to speak up many times that kept things where it should be even though it was more costly. Had we been a nonunion plant they could have fired me and proceed with the cheaper route as I was being driven to the gate. Who do you want keeping an eye on that for you? We are not making cotton candy out here
> As far as the union keeping our pay down, we didnâ€™t lose money or our jobs in 2009 when the market crashed. We weathered that storm without missing a beat. I will stick with the union.
> ...


Oil companies are not in the energy business they are in the money business. 
If every one of the companies could figure out or get somebody else to process there crude they would S/D every refinery they own. Refining is the most costly part of the operation from drilling the hole to putting it in the tank.
You are also living in a little bit of a fantasy world on your value. 
You just got lucky and ended up in a refinery that hasn't been sold four or five times over the last 30 or 40 years.
Wait till you change hands a few times and see the way they screw over your retirement and benefits then. Most likely some old Sinclair boys here that got bought out by ARCO or Gulf boys that got splintered to pieces. They can really enlighten you on pension screw overs.
Watched on my uncle at Sinclair. 
What you are doing is nothing new it is just new to you.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Whitebassfisher said:


> The whole refinery needs to operate in unison. There is no other way.
> 
> I can't speak for any refinery but the one I worked at. I was represented the entire time. The money was always good. The benefits were always good. But that refinery was the only thing in my life I have ever hated, because their management style was to treat the hourly workforce like dog chit all the time. It grew old. I never was treated so sub-human in my life. It was not the immediate supervisors... they were fine, but rather the very top of the chain that hated us and told us so daily.


It will run in unison you are just thinking in the box you
know of. I thought the same way in my youth.
They don't have to run that facility as a complex refinery 
they can run it as single train like about 80% in the country
are ran.
I can honestly say I thought I was treated fairly and enjoyed
what I did for living. I think I would have found something
else if I felt like I was something they stepped in.
The company hired me as kid paid for my education.
Maybe I am just looking at from a different generations
prospective.


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## 47741 (Jan 5, 2010)

Wakeup said:


> As far as the union keeping our pay down, we didnâ€™t lose money or our jobs in 2009 when the market crashed. We weathered that storm without missing a beat. I will stick with the union.
> We stand in solidarity my friend
> _
> Mark Z
> USW13-1_


Wakeup is a perfect screen name for you. Your view, sadly, is a bit myopic, but that is what the Unions love!

Suppose this goes on for a while and you run short on cash. Will the union boss be there to put food on your table? No. Does his paycheck stop because you guys are on strike? No.

As to the rest of your post- It was covered by several already. Shell could make money without a downstream unit. Many thousands of companies work quite successfully in upstream only. You missed the larger point of Shell's financial health overall. Don't think that you're irreplaceable. You are. Shell existed for many years without you and will exist years after you pass. They could lose the entire plant's staff in a terrible accident and eventually, it would open back up again. Perhaps some history searching is in order- One such example ATC back in 1981.

You are paid to do a job, just as any other employee is. Specialized training, that's nice. Every job has some sort of training. Some may take longer to complete. Some may be 'harder' but acting as if your job is impossible for another person to do, well.......best of luck.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

SaltyTX said:


> Shell could make money without a downstream unit.


Also, some very large and profitable refineries don't have upstream. Crude can be bought off the market.

Everyone is replaceable... everyone. There may be hiccups, but there are many intelligent hard working people wanting work.


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## flatscat1 (Jun 2, 2005)

Exxon 4th quarter profits were down 21%. I cannot imagine this to be a good time for any negotiations, as it is safe to assume many such operators/refiners will be down similarily.


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

MRO up 4% so far today, just over a dollar. Strike related?


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## HTJ (May 26, 2011)

SaltyTX said:


> Wakeup is a perfect screen name for you. Your view, sadly, is a bit myopic, but that is what the Unions love!
> 
> Suppose this goes on for a while and you run short on cash. Will the union boss be there to put food on your table? No. Does his paycheck stop because you guys are on strike? No.
> 
> ...


Playing devils advocate for a moment....as I understand it competition for operator jobs is still pretty fierce, entry requirements pretty minimal, with pay and benefits _well_ in excess of what contractor companies pay folks with 0-2 years experience. And ANY pension plan these days is something most folks don't have. And same as any industry the cream will rise up to become board operators, unit supervisors, management, etc. Given the economic challenges the average American is facing I can't help but compare this to the NFL going on strike.

I am a manager for a service company and in my 25 years of being inside one gate or another I have passed over several opportunities at "plant jobs" as the thought of going to the same job site for 10 or 20 or more years is beyond unappealing to me. Kudos to those who can do it but working OT when you don't really want it, dealing with safety concerns and being treated as something less than a rock star is the name of the game when you pull on coveralls for a living.


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## Night Trout (Jun 19, 2006)

You actually have no idea what our union will do for us. Will we have to give up some day to day things, YES but guess what we can re-buy them later. It appears many of you seem to act like you know what is going on and you claim that we always bring up safety during these times. Well what you don't know is how Marathon does false reporting of releases and safety records. We have a member right now on S&D for knee injury at work, has had several surgery's and as of to day has not been reported to OSHA as a recordable. There is also false reporting about the Cat 1 catalyst release. I will nto elaborate on that but I'm sure it will make its way our shortly. Many of the things that they are trying to take away were put into place after the explosion that killed LOTS of people. Here is a snap shot of some of the safety language they are trying to take away.

Safety Items:
â€¢ Elimination of the Process Health and Safety Committee
â€¢ Elimination of six (6) health and safety reps.
â€¢ Extensive modification of the roles and responsibility of the Health and Safety Representative (Oil Policy)
â€¢ Elimination of the PULSE Facilitator position (PULSE is a site specific safety program developed and administered by the Union). This position functioned as a health and safety representative so the total loss of health and safety representatives stands at seven (7).
â€¢ Extensive modifications to the National Health and Safety Language (Oil Policy)



SaltyTX said:


> Wakeup is a perfect screen name for you. Your view, sadly, is a bit myopic, but that is what the Unions love!
> 
> Suppose this goes on for a while and you run short on cash. Will the union boss be there to put food on your table? No. Does his paycheck stop because you guys are on strike? No.
> 
> ...


----------



## ChasingReds (Jul 31, 2009)

Lagunaroy said:


> MRO up 4% so far today, just over a dollar. Strike related?


*MRO* = upstream

*MPC* = downstream, but still up .3% for the day - also selling above $90, so they're doin fine - so far

Marathon split back in 2011 just before MPC bought the BP refinery


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Come on guys....Joining a union is a choice. Some make that choice some don't. This same line of posting takes place every time a union is mentioned. Respect each others choice and talk fishing.


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## HTJ (May 26, 2011)

Night Trout I obviously don't have the insider perspective that you do but I have made the observation many times that post incident, we tend to be the benefactor (?) of a landslide of adminsitrative changes but rarely is there a legitimate change to safety culture and day to day operations. I have not worked in TX City since Marathon took over but I cant imagine any substantial change for the good in the relatively short period of time since the BP sign came down. I can _for sure _tell you what BP's perspective was. In spite of my previous ramble in the other direction I have to agree with you on this.


----------



## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

I'm gonna say this as gently as I can..... If you're waiting for an entity or team or rep or committee to make you "safe" You will be waiting your entire career.

Safety is an individual choice. Actually its all about what you do when no one is looking that makes you safe or dangerous. That's the truth . My safety is my responsibility . That's the only safety "program" that works. No one should have to cajole, inspire, push or otherwise reward 100,000 a year professionals to be safe. It should be second nature and automatic. Marathon , Shell or Lyondell is not responsible for your safety.... You are. Their only obligation is to provide the resources.

For years nothing griped me worse than a bunch of "professionals" waiting on someone else to make them safe.


----------



## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Mad Mike said:


> Marathon stopped our pension about 5 years ago and it's frozen. I will get $400 a month whether I retire now or in 20 years.


I retired from BP, but on the ARCO plan. BP"s cash balance plan would have given me about $150,000 less lump sum. I'm just glad I invested my 401 K well.


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## flatscat1 (Jun 2, 2005)

Night Trout said:


> You actually have no idea what our union will do for us. Will we have to give up some day to day things, YES but guess what we can re-buy them later. It appears many of you seem to act like you know what is going on and you claim that we always bring up safety during these times. *Well what you don't know is how Marathon does false reporting of releases and safety records. We have a member right now on S&D for knee injury at work, has had several surgery's and as of to day has not been reported to OSHA as a recordable. There is also false reporting about the Cat 1 catalyst release.* I will nto elaborate on that but I'm sure it will make its way our shortly. Many of the things that they are trying to take away were put into place after the explosion that killed LOTS of people. Here is a snap shot of some of the safety language they are trying to take away.
> 
> Safety Items:
> â€¢ Elimination of the Process Health and Safety Committee
> ...


MRO is a public company. If there is some illegal coverup, write the board of directors an anonomous letter. I promise they will look into it, b/c not doing so would be likely felony / lack of fiduciary responsibility on their part. The board will take action, I assure you.

Also, MRO will have an employee portal on their website wherein you can point out such illegal activities. A third party receives these posts (not your boss, a neutral third party) and that will lead to immediate investigation of your observed illegal actions.

As a third option to resolve your problems, you could call the news. Any news agency would do a special on a corporate cover-up.

Posting such claims on a fishing website.....not likely to get you the change you want.


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## workorfish (Sep 5, 2007)

*sage advise*



Jack's Pocket said:


> Oil companies are not in the energy business they are in the money business.
> If every one of the companies could figure out or get somebody else to process there crude they would S/D every refinery they own. Refining is the most costly part of the operation from drilling the hole to putting it in the tank.
> You are also living in a little bit of a fantasy world on your value.
> You just got lucky and ended up in a refinery that hasn't been sold four or five times over the last 30 or 40 years.
> ...


I saw that happen to my Dad - Eastern States, Sinclair, Hill, Charter, Philbro, others and finally Valero. He too went through the wars as an OCAW member and later on the other side of the table. Never a good thing. You, stumpgrinder and others speak with sage experience.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

flatscat1 said:


> MRO is a public company. If there is some illegal coverup, write the board of directors an anonomous letter. I promise they will look into it, b/c not doing so would be likely felony / lack of fiduciary responsibility on their part. The board will take action, I assure you.
> 
> Also, MRO will have an employee portal on their website wherein you can point out such illegal activities. A third party receives these posts (not your boss, a neutral third party) and that will lead to immediate investigation of your observed illegal actions.
> 
> ...


 Actually he needs to write to MPC not MRO.

I aint buying it either. When I worked for MPC the enviro's owned our tails . We didn't dance around with the agencies. We over reported


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## Night Trout (Jun 19, 2006)

We are not waiting for a commitee or rep. to make us safe. Since you are so versed in what we dont need and wont work. Lets look beyond a pinched finger or something in your eye. Marathon has a history of making bad decissions for profit. Currently our cheifs our recieving great pressure to get the job done. Many of hourly workers have already been put on discipline because of refusal to do work that they consider unsafe. Many of our MOC procedures are outdated and in the incorrect order. Do you know what happens if we do not follow the MOC? We are deceplined even if it is incorrect and unsafe. Those committies that were formed was because of bad corporate judgement. Those committies were formed by both the USW and BP after the explosion. If it was you that had to pull dead and burned bodies out of the debres you might feel diffrent. As a hourly worker those repsenetives help us make our job safe when the company refuses to do it on its own. Our safety record by far exceeds that of the contracters that we are being replaced by. So you tell me if the company is so safe without our contract tell me why we are being replaced by less qualified and unskilled labor that destroys our safety record. Tell me why they choose to run a refinery while we are on strike by less then qualified staffing that puts both them and the community in danger.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

flatscat1 said:


> MRO is a public company. If there is some illegal coverup, write the board of directors an anonomous letter. I promise they will look into it, b/c not doing so would be likely felony / lack of fiduciary responsibility on their part. The board will take action, I assure you.
> 
> Also, MRO will have an employee portal on their website wherein you can point out such illegal activities. A third party receives these posts (not your boss, a neutral third party) and that will lead to immediate investigation of your observed illegal actions.
> 
> ...


No most just are getting a reality check.
BP let the Union run roughshod over them for years.
Old Amoco pretty much operated the way Marathon does.
I walked Marathon gates with some of those boys back then as well.
If you compared notes the only difference was a big M or a Torch and Oval.
BP didn't have a clue on how to operate a refinery.
Our illustrious past POTUS Mr. Clinton with his economic policies collapsed the oil industry in the 80's and a lot of companies went under or were swallowed up.
Amoco was one of them they had got to one sided in Refining only
when margins collapsed they were to the point they couldn't make payroll. Want to see some tighten of the belt work under that.
During all this FUBAR 40,000 men lost jobs in all the "Mergers"
hostile take overs.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Jack's Pocket said:


> No most just are getting a reality check.
> BP let the Union run roughshod over them for years.
> Old Amoco pretty much operated the way Marathon does.
> I walked Marathon gates with some of those boys back then as well.
> ...


Amoco management ran the TC refinery. And yes, they didn't have a clue.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

ChuChu said:


> Amoco management ran the TC refinery. And yes, they didn't have a clue.


You are correct at the direction of BP.
I know I reported to them.
BP could find oil in the street when it came to refining
they were clueless. 
Study your history.
If Morrow hadn't broke the company buying Dome out of Canada
there would still have been a Torch and Oval on the tanks.
That queer Helios still today has no clue how to play refining with the big boys Exxon, Shell,Chevron and Valero is showing they know how. BP was on the verge of collapse as well and threw the dice on the Amoco take over and survived.
Six months prior to Morrows stupid venture the industry speculation
was who would swallow up BP Amoco or Mobil. Worm turned and they both got swallowed up.
The refinery had got to the point it needed considerable investment because of Morrows management BP wouldn't spend a penny they didn't have to. I know on that as well I was arguing for a bigger budget for TAR's. Not until they killed 15 and injured 170 in March 2005 eight years after the take over. I know a little about that as I got assigned to clean up that mess. The board operator,operating crew and supervision should have been tried for murder IMO. Got called to come out of retirement to come back and oversee the Baker Panel Safety Review that incident created. That event sped up my decision to retire early
in dealing with London.
My reply was no thanks they didn't have enough money.

On that If a bull frogs *** was made out of glass he wouldn't jump but once.
Never met one Brit I liked during the time there.
Nuff Said


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## banpouchi (Feb 21, 2011)

Night Trout said:


> We are not waiting for a commitee or rep. to make us safe. Since you are so versed in what we dont need and wont work. Lets look beyond a pinched finger or something in your eye. Marathon has a history of making bad decissions for profit. Currently our cheifs our recieving great pressure to get the job done. Many of hourly workers have already been put on discipline because of refusal to do work that they consider unsafe. Many of our MOC procedures are outdated and in the incorrect order. Do you know what happens if we do not follow the MOC? We are deceplined even if it is incorrect and unsafe. Those committies that were formed was because of bad corporate judgement. Those committies were formed by both the USW and BP after the explosion. If it was you that had to pull dead and burned bodies out of the debres you might feel diffrent. As a hourly worker those repsenetives help us make our job safe when the company refuses to do it on its own. Our safety record by far exceeds that of the contracters that we are being replaced by. So you tell me if the company is so safe without our contract tell me why we are being replaced by less qualified and unskilled labor that destroys our safety record. Tell me why they choose to run a refinery while we are on strike by less then qualified staffing that puts both them and the community in danger.


I know you are trying hard. However I want to make a few observations.

First I retired from a refinery that had both union and non-union employees. Both had good and bad points. I also had to help recover three burned to death employees. Was in three major fires. Ended up doing environmental work before I retired. Before I retired, I had made a name for myself in my Environmental job to where I was loaned out to the US Govt to work on new regulation. Won two Govt (one US One Texas) awards for my work. Started out as an general helper in maintenance then went into operations as a helper. I guess I can say I started at the bottom and worked my way up. I Was non Union. However later in my career at the refinery, I had Union guys working for me. Never had any problem as I respected them for what they could do and they respected me as I tried to treat all fair. Not union or nonunion one way and the other differently. If that is not the way to do it, then I did it wrong.

After I left the place for retirement, I had a chance to do consulting work and took it. One of the oil companies who my employer did work for was BP in Texas City and Indiana. Out of all the refineries I worked at in my lifetime, I would never enter either one of these places again. They had some good employees, who cared about their jobs and did them with pride and professionalism. I am talking about operators. I was at both doing audits both operational and safety.

However, you guys need all the safety help you can muster. As was stated before, safety is a product of one's self. If you are relying on others you are in deep doo doo. A good amount of the employees at both of these refineries rely on someone else to do the safety work for them. Would not clean up oil on slab as it was not their job. If someone got hurt, not my problem. At both refineries, cell phones were banned, however I never entered one control room that someone was not on their personal cell phone. In indiana, I never entered a control room which did not have at least one operator who was not wearing his FRC. I ask why and got the answer if they needed to go outside, they would put them on. I said if there was an emergency, would they have time to put them on. The reply to me was shocking. "If an emergency, I will go take care of it first then return and put them on. You know you have to take care of the emergency first." Gee I thought that might be a good time to have them on is during an emergency.

You talk about reporting upsets. I am quite sure you are well versed in what is and is not required to report. How many on this board know that the sheen put out by your outboard, has to be reported for a refinery. However for some products, it takes tons. I have seen where injuries were not immediately reported due to missing info.

I am sure I will take some grief for this post. If you do not fit the above mold, I am not talking about you. Like I said, I met some excellent operators at BP. If you are one I speak of above, you do need the Union to help you.

Have fun.


----------



## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Night Trout said:


> We are not waiting for a commitee or rep. to make us safe. Since you are so versed in what we dont need and wont work. Lets look beyond a pinched finger or something in your eye. Marathon has a history of making bad decissions for profit. Currently our cheifs our recieving great pressure to get the job done. Many of hourly workers have already been put on discipline because of refusal to do work that they consider unsafe. Many of our MOC procedures are outdated and in the incorrect order. Do you know what happens if we do not follow the MOC? We are deceplined even if it is incorrect and unsafe. Those committies that were formed was because of bad corporate judgement. Those committies were formed by both the USW and BP after the explosion. If it was you that had to pull dead and burned bodies out of the debres you might feel diffrent. As a hourly worker those repsenetives help us make our job safe when the company refuses to do it on its own. Our safety record by far exceeds that of the contracters that we are being replaced by. So you tell me if the company is so safe without our contract tell me why we are being replaced by less qualified and unskilled labor that destroys our safety record. Tell me why they choose to run a refinery while we are on strike by less then qualified staffing that puts both them and the community in danger.


I didn't say it wouldn't work.. I said you didn't need it to be safe. And you're right, I didn't go on the pile . My coworkers did and I was bunkered out on a standby pumper truck ready to go in if they called for us. I saw their faces and helped them deal with what had happened. Did you go ?

Marathon is not an unsafe company. I know better. We had an exemplary safety record 150 yards from your fence line. We had world class safety. We had all the same issues and challenges you do. On a per capita basis we dealt with every bit of what you do.

Marathon is lean & mean but their corporate culture is not unsafe . They are as tight as ***** hatband and require lots of their employees but Marathon is not an outlaw. I don't believe that.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Stumpgrinder said:


> I didn't say it wouldn't work.. I said you didn't need it to be safe. And you're right, I didn't go on the pile . My coworkers did and I was bunkered out on a standby pumper truck ready to go in if they called for us. I saw their faces and helped them deal with what had happened. Did you go ?
> 
> Marathon is not an unsafe company. I know better. We had an exemplary safety record 150 yards from your fence line. We had world class safety. We had all the same issues and challenges you do. On a per capita basis we dealt with every bit of what you do.
> 
> Marathon is lean & mean but their corporate culture is not unsafe . They are as tight as ***** hatband and require lots of their employees but Marathon is not an outlaw. I don't believe that.


I completely agree knew both salaried and hourly boys from there
fine people doing the same job we were.
Fished in tourneys with them as well, leave off the name and you couldn't tell the difference in the refinery you were talking about.


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## Mont (Nov 17, 1998)

redexpress said:


> Yeah 1980 was bad. I just missed the 1973 strike.
> So, can somebody briefly explain what the companies are asking?
> Sounds like they want to change pensions, or just do away with them. I think Shell has changed them in Europe.


I have been doing some reading trying to understand what's involved too.
This is just one link I ran across. 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...u-s-begin-first-large-scale-strike-since-1980

I wish you guys and gals out of work over this the best of luck.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Wrong*



Stumpgrinder said:


> I've got friends picketing right now and other friends that are begrudgingly inside doing " replacement duty" ( don't you dare call them scabs, they knew the deal for decades and the rest of us did too. It's what happens)
> 
> Nobody wins here . But I can tell anybody willing to listen the following. 1. Pensions are going away. Be grateful you have a lucrative matching 401 k plan and take full advantage of it. 2 . You darn well don't need a million dollar a year boutique safety process with committees and jackets and lots of free meals to be safe. Safety is you, individually, making the right decision every time. You know the rules, follow them. You know what's unsafe, don't do it. Period . The end. 3. We ran those places for a hundred years without PTEC apprentice programs. It's a loser to insist on that. 4. Forced o/t is gonna happen. You don't want them to staff at levels where forced o/t never happens. You know it and I do too. You, me , we all agreed to work o/t when we happily accepted these gigs. And yes, I've been forced on Christmas Eve. Numerous times. 5. My gut tells me I don't deserve to be paid for work I did not do. Fatigue days are mandated on these companies . Asking for money for nothing is not going to fly. ( the union leadership is claiming this isn't about money and asking for free money ruins credibility here)
> 
> ...


Your way wrong on the safety stand point and wrong on the fatigue policies. I'll leave it at that.....


----------



## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Safety*



Stumpgrinder said:


> I'm gonna say this as gently as I can..... If you're waiting for an entity or team or rep or committee to make you "safe" You will be waiting your entire career.
> 
> Safety is an individual choice. Actually its all about what you do when no one is looking that makes you safe or dangerous. That's the truth . My safety is my responsibility . That's the only safety "program" that works. No one should have to cajole, inspire, push or otherwise reward 100,000 a year professionals to be safe. It should be second nature and automatic. Marathon , Shell or Lyondell is not responsible for your safety.... You are. Their only obligation is to provide the resources.
> 
> For years nothing griped me worse than a bunch of "professionals" waiting on someone else to make them safe.


I really can't believe you are saying that. Yes we have to make good decisions but there are many many things beyond our control.


----------



## gater (May 25, 2004)

*cell phones*



banpouchi said:


> I know you are trying hard. However I want to make a few observations.
> 
> First I retired from a refinery that had both union and non-union employees. Both had good and bad points. I also had to help recover three burned to death employees. Was in three major fires. Ended up doing environmental work before I retired. Before I retired, I had made a name for myself in my Environmental job to where I was loaned out to the US Govt to work on new regulation. Won two Govt (one US One Texas) awards for my work. Started out as an general helper in maintenance then went into operations as a helper. I guess I can say I started at the bottom and worked my way up. I Was non Union. However later in my career at the refinery, I had Union guys working for me. Never had any problem as I respected them for what they could do and they respected me as I tried to treat all fair. Not union or nonunion one way and the other differently. If that is not the way to do it, then I did it wrong.
> 
> ...


You might chpeck the policies of the facilities you work in. With BP, cell phones are allowed in control rooms and in fact they are allowed on the process unit if they are intrinsically safe. Same thing with FRC's, board operators are not required to where FRC's in the control room, could that be the one person you witnessed...


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## HTJ (May 26, 2011)

gater said:


> I really can't believe you are saying that. Yes we have to make good decisions but there are many many things beyond our control.


I wouldn't pretend for a second to put myself in someone elses shoes but at the end of the day it is MY wife and family I am responsible too. Took me a long time to understand and appreciate that but I have and the result is that I positively will not put myself or any of my guys in harms way, or allow them to be coerced into a situation we are not comfortable with. There is nothing beyond my control when it comes to my continued ability to tie a bimini, hug my wife or file taxes at the end of the year. With the pressure I have experienced from operators around the world to "get it done" I can only imagine the pressure they are under from their own management. All the more reason to be responsible for your own safety. You can always get another job but Sams Club is perpetually short handed on fingers and eyeballs.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

I hope it all works out for you guys .

I just hope y'all know that you're fighting a storm of bad timing both economically and from a public perception point of view. 

Heck, I'm essentially on y'all's side and I'm skeptical. I'm not alone.


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## HTJ (May 26, 2011)

Stumpgrinder said:


> I hope it all works out for you guys .
> 
> I just hope y'all know that you're fighting a storm of bad timing both economically and from a public perception point of view.
> 
> Heck, I'm essentially on y'all's side and I'm skeptical. I'm not alone.


^^^^^^This


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

ChuChu said:


> Come on guys....Joining a union is a choice. Some make that choice some don't. This same line of posting takes place every time a union is mentioned. Respect each others choice and talk fishing.


True to an extent, because this is Texas and a right to work state. However, many plants have all their hourly workers represented. If you are offered a job as operator at "XYZ" Refinery, you will be a represented worker there if you take the job whether you join the union or not. As management told us, if you want the right to vote on who represents you, you have to join the union.

A statement I have made on here before and many people don't believe is that some companies or management actually prefer having union workers. Most companies in the chemical or refining industry prefer union labor. These unions do not have the power to run rough shod over management. Due to union contracts and rules, companies can employ fewer people to supervise the workforce and make more profit in the long run.

Think about it : Do you really believe a multi-billion dollar facility is going to let a few hundred rotating shift blue collar workers control the destiny of the company? When a company reports they want to hire 10 operators, a thousand will apply. But in the long run, these plants make more money having union operators and that is why they remain in place. If Shell as an example stated they wanted to go non-union and would start hiring new operators tomorrow, how many thousands would be in Deer Park tomorrow morning? My goodness they would be arriving from many states within hours.

It is 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. No one wins in a strike.


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## banpouchi (Feb 21, 2011)

gater said:


> You might chpeck the policies of the facilities you work in. With BP, cell phones are allowed in control rooms and in fact they are allowed on the process unit if they are intrinsically safe. Same thing with FRC's, board operators are not required to where FRC's in the control room, could that be the one person you witnessed...


That is what I like about about a true blue Union employee. Everybody else is wrong. Do you think everyone is stupid? You must. The first thing I did was get a copy of the policy at that time and reviewed it. At that time I was 100% correct. Also I visited many control rooms and found the problem in every control room room I visited.

As With all true blue Union employees, you miss the point. Lets be clear. You keep saying safety is the companies problem. That is so far from the fact. YOU are responsible for your safety. The company is responsible to correct safety issues that can be controlled via engineering or policy. If you have a problem with policy or MOC or procedures, I have never seen or heard of a company which did not have a way to resolve the issues. However the true blue Union man runs to the Union Rep. That way they do not have to man up and try to resolve the issue themselves. Then they just sit back and complain about the company. Now do all union Employees act like, No. Most are good hard working professionals. It is the ones who complain the company is responsible for their safety.

That is kind of like the overtime fatigue issue. I am no lawyer (do not claim to be) but if you are going to work fatigued and are forced to go to work, contact a lawyer and the National Labor Relations Board.

As stated before I have had Union employees that worked for me. They took responsibility for their actions. They did not blame the company for their problems but took to working on them themselves.


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## banpouchi (Feb 21, 2011)

Stumpgrinder said:


> I hope it all works out for you guys .
> 
> I just hope y'all know that you're fighting a storm of bad timing both economically and from a public perception point of view.
> 
> Heck, I'm essentially on y'all's side and I'm skeptical. I'm not alone.


Very good post. I hope all works out with no bad results.


----------



## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Policies*



banpouchi said:


> That is what I like about about a true blue Union employee. Everybody else is wrong. Do you think everyone is stupid? You must. The first thing I did was get a copy of the policy at that time and reviewed it. At that time I was 100% correct. Also I visited many control rooms and found the problem in every control room room I visited.
> 
> As With all true blue Union employees, you miss the point. Lets be clear. You keep saying safety is the companies problem. That is so far from the fact. YOU are responsible for your safety. The company is responsible to correct safety issues that can be controlled via engineering or policy. If you have a problem with policy or MOC or procedures, I have never seen or heard of a company which did not have a way to resolve the issues. However the true blue Union man runs to the Union Rep. That way they do not have to man up and try to resolve the issue themselves. Then they just sit back and complain about the company. Now do all union Employees act like, No. Most are good hard working professionals. It is the ones who complain the company is responsible for their safety.
> 
> ...


You are right, everyone is responsible to work safely, however you are dead wrong about blaming everything on the Company. When the Company threatens to fire one of their own safety guy for doing the right thing what chance does a hourly person have. Your only hope is your Union hourly safety rep.

Never called you stupid but it's obvious you don't know the rules in places that you visit. If you were that concerned with it why didn't you question it.


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## waterwolf (Mar 6, 2005)

*IBEW 66 Houston Texas*

We STAND with YOU!


----------



## waterwolf (Mar 6, 2005)

*Lineman*

Hooking the Black Diamonds for 32 yrs...Local 66


----------



## banpouchi (Feb 21, 2011)

gater said:


> You are right, everyone is responsible to work safely, however you are dead wrong about blaming everything on the Company. When the Company threatens to fire one of their own safety guy for doing the right thing what chance does a hourly person have. Your only hope is your Union hourly safety rep.
> 
> Never called you stupid but it's obvious you don't know the rules in places that you visit. If you were that concerned with it why didn't you question it.


Again please read as I ask for and received the policy. Also wrote it up on my report. Guess you missed it.

Had my say.

Wish all is well for all on strike. Very few winners be it company or employees.


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## waterwolf (Mar 6, 2005)

*We are the original*

Hookers...and yes that is Hot..7200 Volts. IBEW LOCAL 66 Has our backs 24/7. SAFETY FIRST. BROTHERHOOD OF ELECTRICAL WORKERS. BROTHERS KEEPER!


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

gater said:


> You are right, everyone is responsible to work safely, however you are dead wrong about blaming everything on the Company. When the Company threatens to fire one of their own safety guy for doing the right thing what chance does a hourly person have. Your only hope is your Union hourly safety rep.
> 
> .


 That's really the problem as I see it with the entire "union safety culture": they insulate themselves from the real world. In said real world, if there's that much of a problem, you sue their ***. There's whistleblower laws that are duly enacted by the various legislatures to protect you, entire bureaucracies that are sitting there waiting for the phone to ring so they can tear into that employer, etc.... : get out of the little union bubble, and our society and legal system is already set up to take care of just such an instance. Once you keep it "internal", report things only to your union rep, then let their little network of back scratching take care of it, it basically gets swept under the rug as far as liability is concerned.

Am I supporting an over-litigious society? Abso-freakin-lutely not. However, this kind of instance is exactly what that system is supposed to be for, and it's being thrown away because of the union reps wanting to maintain their own control and power, and arranging their own internal safety system to do just that. Inside that union bubble, a safety problem just basically goes away: outside of it, the company gets slapped with a judgement, gets hit with an OSHA fine, and responsible managers get fired and possibly prosecuted. One way or another, the company quite regularly gets the basic message. In a non-union world, companies enact safety programs because they fear OSHA intervention and legal liability for any injury. That incentive gets seriously clouded when the politics of union representation enters into the equation.


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## Night Trout (Jun 19, 2006)

Stumpgrinder said:


> I didn't say it wouldn't work.. I said you didn't need it to be safe. And you're right, I didn't go on the pile . My coworkers did and I was bunkered out on a standby pumper truck ready to go in if they called for us. I saw their faces and helped them deal with what had happened. Did you go ?
> 
> Marathon is not an unsafe company. I know better. We had an exemplary safety record 150 yards from your fence line. We had world class safety. We had all the same issues and challenges you do. On a per capita basis we dealt with every bit of what you do.
> 
> Marathon is lean & mean but their corporate culture is not unsafe . They are as tight as ***** hatband and require lots of their employees but Marathon is not an outlaw. I don't believe that.


You were a TRD employee.... enough said.... Tell them boys to hang on March 7 is right around the corner.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

gater said:


> You are right, everyone is responsible to work safely, however you are dead wrong about blaming everything on the Company. When the Company threatens to fire one of their own safety guy for doing the right thing what chance does a hourly person have. Your only hope is your Union hourly safety rep.
> 
> Never called you stupid but it's obvious you don't know the rules in places that you visit. If you were that concerned with it why didn't you question it.


Gator yall have a tough row to hoe and I hope you the best.Seen the site go from Pan Am, Amoco,BP and now Marathon. Change is hard and all I can tell you is Marathons culture pretty much mirrored Amoco.
Ran very military from the top down.
I have been on both sides and no wins here.
As far as safety goes never lost a man on my watch.
Came in and got some with and without bunker gear.
The FRC's you wear today was because a company man was tired of pulling men off units with there skin hanging off of them. Believe it or not some of us tried our best no matter the side the fence we were on to do the right thing. That doesn't always make it the popular thing.
As I stated earlier if I was still a steward of Local 4-449 I would have voted to walk on this one and I would be on the negotiating committee.
There is no side of the fence to do the right thing. I learned a long time ago that the BS wasn't fertilizer to bag and sell both sides shovel it equally as well.

From an old man this will pass and you will be stronger when it is over. You are going to have to tighten your belt and get a stiff back like we did.
Keep in mind what is important the wife and kids they 
are scared right now. Not a time for you to show it.
Stay calm and cool. 
May God Bless


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Night Trout said:


> You were a TRD employee.... enough said.... Tell them boys to hang on March 7 is right around the corner.


Yes, I was. I know Marathon .

You won't out stubborn them.


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## Night Trout (Jun 19, 2006)

banpouchi said:


> I know you are trying hard. However I want to make a few observations.
> 
> First I retired from a refinery that had both union and non-union employees. Both had good and bad points. I also had to help recover three burned to death employees. Was in three major fires. Ended up doing environmental work before I retired. Before I retired, I had made a name for myself in my Environmental job to where I was loaned out to the US Govt to work on new regulation. Won two Govt (one US One Texas) awards for my work. Started out as an general helper in maintenance then went into operations as a helper. I guess I can say I started at the bottom and worked my way up. I Was non Union. However later in my career at the refinery, I had Union guys working for me. Never had any problem as I respected them for what they could do and they respected me as I tried to treat all fair. Not union or nonunion one way and the other differently. If that is not the way to do it, then I did it wrong.
> 
> ...


I am very well versed in reporting upsets and safety guidelines. This is my first union job and until I came here I was just like many. They are lazy no good for nothing workers. Let me tell you I was way wrong and let me put it like this. Skilled labor is not cheap and cheap labor is not skilled. Everyone needs to thank the cat 1 operators that were handling the catalyst release. Many of you think it was just some white powder got blown onto your house and cars but you have no idea how close it came to exploding. Reguardless of this being a union plant the safety guidlines that are in place need to stay in place. Since the introduction of these roles only 2 people have been killed and that is a drastic improvement to our refinery. What Marathon needs to know is you just dont take 30 years of bargining and just simply throw it in the trast and try and re-write it in 2 weeks. We will continue to fight for what is right.


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## ctcrop (Jan 5, 2012)

Stumpgrinder said:


> I hope it all works out for you guys .
> 
> I just hope y'all know that you're fighting a storm of bad timing both economically and from a public perception point of view.
> 
> Heck, I'm essentially on y'all's side and I'm skeptical. I'm not alone.


Not sure where everyone is getting this "bad timing -economically, margins are low, barrel of oil is low, yada yada yada". I can tell you for a fact that our margins are over $2/ more yesterday than they were the day before. And, they are in fact, $5/more than they were 2 weeks ago. Fact is, 3yrs ago (last contract), all of the critics out there were screaming the same **** - "bad timing -economically, margins are low, barrel of oil is low". So, are these contracts about Safety, Wages, Insurance, etc? **** right, though maybe not in that particular order. Is it just a coincidence that the price per barrel of oil is down??? I think not. Bottom line is, most of us deserve safer work environments, better wages, & better insurance policies.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Night Trout said:


> I am very well versed in reporting upsets and safety guidelines. This is my first union job and until I came here I was just like many. They are lazy no good for nothing workers. Let me tell you I was way wrong and let me put it like this. Skilled labor is not cheap and cheap labor is not skilled. Everyone needs to thank the cat 1 operators that were handling the catalyst release. Many of you think it was just some white powder got blown onto your house and cars but you have no idea how close it came to exploding. Reguardless of this being a union plant the safety guidlines that are in place need to stay in place. Since the introduction of these roles only 2 people have been killed and that is a drastic improvement to our refinery. What Marathon needs to know is you just dont take 30 years of bargining and just simply throw it in the trast and try and re-write it in 2 weeks. We will continue to fight for what is right.


I have a couple of thoughts . 1. I will not " thank" the cat1 operators. It was their obligation to both a) handle the release b) prevent it in the first place . This is exactly what I mean about safety being a personal obligation and responsibility. And if you're going to tell me the catalyst release was a mechanical failure ( maybe it was, I do not have a clue) I'll tell you that, hey, that stuff happens sometimes. If there was mayonnaise and koolaid running through the pipes at ambient temps they'd have people operating the process for 10 bux an hour. If Marathon delayed repair or didn't inspect in a proper fashion, I'm sure old Buzbee will have another yacht soon enough.

2. Marathon has every right in the world to try and negotiate their position . They intend to bring your contract in line with their other facilities ( I suppose) you certainly don't have to agree with them, but I'll argue to the death their right to do it.

If y'all wanna get really , really stubborn with those people , I hope you have some really deep reserve funds in savings. They will not be " out bullheaded" IMHO

Once again, I'm not aligning with the " Company" I'm just telling you my view of your reality.


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## 47741 (Jan 5, 2010)

ctcrop said:


> Bottom line is, most of us deserve safer work environments, better wages, & better insurance policies.


1) Why do you "deserve" anything? Nobody is holding a gun to your head to work there. Move on.

2) YOU make your environment safer. If you're saying the entire place is a mechanically unsafe mess and it shouldn't be run, WHY would you risk your life and limb when there are plenty of other places to work? Do you not love your family enough to go to safer job? Move on if you think any company is responsible for making a safe environment. Safety is a culture. If the place is so mechanically or otherwise unsafe, there is no way anyone can think that the installation of some 'union' approved safety guy is going to make things better. That would be like putting icing on a poop cake. Makes no sense.

3) Again, keep pushing...see how long it goes on. The companies have much larger resources than you ever will. Notice the plant runs without you, just like it did before you and will after you. And, again, notice how you workers are the ones starving, not the union that supposedly cares about safety, wages, and you personally.

Do some fun math- The money that is being lost by not working. $2000+/week? What pay raise do you intend to get? How long is it going to take to cover that gap? For even more fun, how much more $ would you have if you didn't pay union dues?

Good luck though!! The Union loves you. Solidarity..this...Safety that..blah blah blah. Follow the money, as always. Oh BTW, the Unions helped with a major push *for* Obummercare. All good though, oh wait...


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## msf62000 (Aug 24, 2007)

SaltyTX said:


> 1) Why do you "deserve" anything? Nobody is holding a gun to your head to work there. Move on.
> 
> 2) YOU make your environment safer. If you're saying the entire place is a mechanically unsafe mess and it shouldn't be run, WHY would you risk your life and limb when there are plenty of other places to work? Do you not love your family enough to go to safer job? Move on if you think any company is responsible for making a safe environment. Safety is a culture. If the place is so mechanically or otherwise unsafe, there is no way anyone can think that the installation of some 'union' approved safety guy is going to make things better. That would be like putting icing on a poop cake. Makes no sense.
> 
> ...


So do you honestly believe that if tomorrow there were no more Unions that all these major corporations would continue to "do the right thing"? Most all non union facilities benefit because of the unions. If these companies were so honest and treated employees the way they should be treated then why were unions formed in the first place?


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

SaltyTX said:


> 1) Why do you "deserve" anything? Nobody is holding a gun to your head to work there. Move on.
> 
> Do some fun math- The money that is being lost by not working. $2000+/week? What pay raise do you intend to get? How long is it going to take to cover that gap? For even more fun, how much more $ would you have if you didn't pay union dues?
> 
> ...


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## 47741 (Jan 5, 2010)

msf62000 said:


> So do you honestly believe that if tomorrow there were no more Unions that all these major corporations would continue to "do the right thing"? Most all non union facilities benefit because of the unions. If these companies were so honest and treated employees the way they should be treated then why were unions formed in the first place?


Actually, I believe, for the most part, they would do the right thing. It isn't 1895 any more. Plenty of employee protections in place now. Today you, as an employee, can scream from the mountain top to any media outlet and they will gobble up your story of an "evil company" like candy.

Suppose there was a huge accident and a unit blows up. (Which happens with Union people too; Unions aren't some great magic unicorn savior) The company would be sued into oblivion by someone like Buzbee. If the accident/lawsuit was severe enough, the asset would be sold & taken over by the next company who can make it work. They try to run the unit better. Capitalism at its finest. Unions can't stop this inevitable sequence of events.

But a more pressing question/scenario--- Why would you work for a company you can't trust, unless there is a 3rd party involved?

Along those lines, are you suggesting that if the union disappears tomorrow, the companies are going to run over all their employees, turn them into minimum wage slaves & get rid of any and every safety protocol for the sake of making a dollar? If so, I feel bad for you, you're too cynical. While the processing of chemicals is inherently dangerous & accidents WILL happen, it is in a companies best interest to keep employees safe and alive. It is in their interest (usually) to keep a unit/plant running efficiently and cleanly. Why? A single dead employee easily costs 10, more likely 20+ years of a living salary of said dead employee. A single spill or leak can cost millions to TCEQ, the EPA and other agencies. It isn't fiscally sound to go killing off employees as disposables or running faulty units all the time these days. Maybe 100 years ago, but those days are largely gone in the US. (yep, this statement is a bit open ended, but think long-term. There are some examples of fines cheaper than solutions. In the end though, the fines/fining agency/lawyers will win to stop making things a total mess)


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## msf62000 (Aug 24, 2007)

SaltyTX said:


> Actually, I believe, for the most part, they would do the right thing. It isn't 1895 any more. Plenty of employee protections in place now. Today you, as an employee, can scream from the mountain top to any media outlet and they will gobble up your story of an "evil company" like candy.
> 
> Suppose there was a huge accident and a unit blows up. (Which happens with Union people too; Unions aren't some great magic unicorn savior) The company would be sued into oblivion by someone like Buzbee. If the accident/lawsuit was severe enough, the asset would be sold & taken over by the next company who can make it work. They try to run the unit better. Capitalism at its finest. Unions can't stop this inevitable sequence of events.
> 
> ...


So it sounds like your approach is wait till disaster strikes then lets do something about it. I'm sorry thats been done before. I believe preventing disaster is the best course of action. Why wait until its to late? Every safety policy/procedure was written in blood by injury or death. I do feel like I work for a good company I also believe that the union does their part in this too. No I don't believe I would be reduced to minimum wage if there were no more unions tomorrow. I do however believe that with time they will slowly but surely do away with medical, pension, 401k, etc... If I didn't want any of these benefits I could go to work for one of the many contractors in my plant and make more per hour than I currently do. I choose to the benefits and the union. I did work for a nonunion facility before I came to work where I am currently employed. It was a good job made a good living, but slowly but surely they are doing away with their benefits. They used to have a pension and 401k match up to 10%. Now as a new hire you only get 2% match towards your 401k. All the old timers told me to get out while I was young and go to work for a union company so I listened to them and they were right. Now they can't keep no one there for more than a year. Get them trained up and qualified and they jump ship just asI did for a better life. Do I feel entitled? No, but us doing a contract negotiation is no different than you walking in and asking your boss for a raise. The difference is this affects 850,000 of us. I worked my way thru school got my degree work at multiple facilities before I landed the job I have and I have a good job.


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## waterwolf (Mar 6, 2005)

*No answer*



msf62000 said:


> So do you honestly believe that if tomorrow there were no more Unions that all these major corporations would continue to "do the right thing"? Most all non union facilities benefit because of the unions. If these companies were so honest and treated employees the way they should be treated then why were unions formed in the first place?


True statement above. What happens when the parents (unions) go away for the weekend? The kids (company) take advantage of their new found freedom and act a fool. Unions are not for every job situation but when it comes to certain crafts it has it's place...If your lights are out and you had to choose between a Union lineman (quality in craftsmanship) and a non-union lineman (un- skilled) you better think twice because it could be the difference of getting your light on in 1 day vs 3 days....I have worked the aftermath of many hurricanes and have seen it first hand.Union side is organized,efficient and runs like a well oiled machine...non-union side is just there for a pay check, and has just thrown a "crew together" for the event. Just an observation made over the past 30yrs.
I don't agree with all unions ideas,nothing in the world is perfect.But they have their place. Obama Care, that's unions being unions...not everyone in the unions support.


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## msf62000 (Aug 24, 2007)

waterwolf said:


> True statement above. What happens when the parents (unions) go away for the weekend? The kids (company) take advantage of their new found freedom and act a fool. Unions are not for every job situation but when it comes to certain crafts it has it's place...If your lights are out and you had to choose between a Union lineman (quality in craftsmanship) and a non-union lineman (un- skilled) you better think twice because it could be the difference of getting your light on in 1 day vs 3 days....I have worked the aftermath of many hurricanes and have seen it first hand.Union side is organized,efficient and runs like a well oiled machine...non-union side is just there for a pay check, and has just thrown a "crew together" for the event. Just an observation made over the past 30yrs.
> I don't agree with all unions ideas,nothing in the world is perfect.But they have their place. Obama Care, that's unions being unions...not everyone in the unions support.


Thank You!


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## 47741 (Jan 5, 2010)

msf62000 said:


> So it sounds like your approach is wait till disaster strikes then lets do something about it. I'm sorry thats been done before. I believe preventing disaster is the best course of action. Why wait until its to late? Every safety policy/procedure was written in blood by injury or death. I


Reread, sir. I said that it is the way of things, not that it was "my approach." Unions labor doesn't prevent that. It is merely statistics, unfortunately. You do everything you can to prevent an accident and you learn when it does happen (you may learn that an employee was horrible and their bosses were more horrible)

Comparing contract labor with union labor is a bit misguided or dishonest...but, you already knew that.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

SaltyTX said:


> 1)
> Good luck though!! The Union loves you. Solidarity..this...Safety that..blah blah blah. Follow the money, as always. Oh BTW, the Unions helped with a major push *for* Obummercare. All good though, oh wait...


And just what unions pushed for Obamacare? Look at who they were and where they are. And who they represent.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

SaltyTX said:


> Comparing contract labor with union labor is a bit misguided or dishonest...but, you already knew that.


How? Contract labor is who the companies are giving union jobs to.


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## 47741 (Jan 5, 2010)

waterwolf said:


> True statement above. What happens when the parents (unions) go away for the weekend? The kids (company) take advantage of their new found freedom and act a fool. Unions are not for every job situation but when it comes to certain crafts it has it's place...If your lights are out and you had to choose between a Union lineman (quality in craftsmanship) and a non-union lineman (un- skilled) you better think twice because it could be the difference of getting your light on in 1 day vs 3 days....I have worked the aftermath of many hurricanes and have seen it first hand.Union side is organized,efficient and runs like a well oiled machine...non-union side is just there for a pay check, and has just thrown a "crew together" for the event. Just an observation made over the past 30yrs.
> I don't agree with all unions ideas,nothing in the world is perfect.But they have their place. Obama Care, that's unions being unions...not everyone in the unions support.


Let's not look at the NJ congress.

Not taking away from you and your buddies that can probably do quality work, but to say that everyone that isn't in a union is a hack is irresponsible at best.

re: obummercare. You gotta take the good with the bad, that's part of your chosen medicine.


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## flatscat1 (Jun 2, 2005)

ctcrop said:


> Not sure where everyone is getting this "bad timing -economically, margins are low, barrel of oil is low, yada yada yada". I can tell you for a fact that our margins are over $2/ more yesterday than they were the day before. And, they are in fact, $5/more than they were 2 weeks ago. Fact is, 3yrs ago (last contract), all of the critics out there were screaming the same **** - "bad timing -economically, margins are low, barrel of oil is low". So, are these contracts about Safety, Wages, Insurance, etc? **** right, though maybe not in that particular order. Is it just a coincidence that the price per barrel of oil is down??? I think not. Bottom line is, most of us deserve safer work environments, better wages, & better insurance policies.


The economic estimates I read say another 50,000 job losses across the energy sector this year. Many believe oil will hover in the $50/bbl range through 2015, and if this is the case, there are another 250,000 expected job losses in Texas alone next year as nearly 2/3 of rigs may be laid down. Such upstream declines will surely impact the downstream at some point.

I agree you deserve a safe work environment, and if your workplace is unsafe then I completely side with you.

But iit seems to me that demanding better wages and insurance benefits is like demanding a raise. Not many people in this economy are demanding, or receiving, raises, and our out-of-pocket medical costs are rising in my industry.

People often accept a job knowing what the benefits and wage are...and then they say that because corporate profits are good, they deserve a share of the pie. But that pie belongs to the shareholders, and unless one owns stock, they have no claims to those profits (or losses). That is how business works, it is the downside of hourly labor.


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## Oso Blanco (Oct 17, 2010)

waterwolf said:


> True statement above. What happens when the parents (unions) go away for the weekend? The kids (company) take advantage of their new found freedom and act a fool. Unions are not for every job situation but when it comes to certain crafts it has it's place...If your lights are out and you had to choose between a Union lineman (quality in craftsmanship) and a non-union lineman (un- skilled) you better think twice because it could be the difference of getting your light on in 1 day vs 3 days....I have worked the aftermath of many hurricanes and have seen it first hand.Union side is organized,efficient and runs like a well oiled machine...non-union side is just there for a pay check, and has just thrown a "crew together" for the event. Just an observation made over the past 30yrs.
> I don't agree with all unions ideas,nothing in the world is perfect.But they have their place. Obama Care, that's unions being unions...not everyone in the unions support.


You do not have a clue. I have 35 years in a non-union shop. I started as a groundsman and I am Manager now. I will put my non-union lineman up against your union boys any day. They are two time world champion all around lineman rodeo winners. We have the lowest SADI and CADI numbers in the state of Texas (Outage Response). Unskilled my arse. I will not even interview a union lineman.


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## wfishtx (Apr 10, 2006)

The problem I see here is no one appears to be willing to leverage the capitalistic market we have in the U.S. Instead of joining a union and relying on the union to make your employer do what you want them to, how about you quit and go work for someone who will.

If I don't treat my employees the right way and if I don't create an environment for them that is safe, and if I don't pay them equally to my competitors for the job I'm asking them to do, and I don't provide them with benefits that are competitive within the marketplace, guess what happens? They all quit and go work for someone who will and I go out of business.

I think Wal-Mart sucks for a number of reasons, so guess what, I don't shop there and I spend my money elsewhere. Guess what would happen if everyone that thought Wal-Mart sucked would stop shopping there, they'd either have to change what sucked or they'd go out of business. Its the same in the employment world.

Instead you union guys want to try and change a companies behavior through negotiations or strikes. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but going on strike isn't going to improve the working environment. Getting the company to let you create 17 safety sub-committees isn't going to improve your environment. Getting them to pay more for your benefits, isn't going to improve your environment. Its not going to get the boss to improve how he talks to you or how he treats you. You're still going to have to go work for the same guys you hated working for before the strike only now they're probably going to treat you even worse.

If you don't like the environment you work in, if you don't like what you have to pay for benefits, if you don't like the retirement plan being offered then you really have two options. 1. Go work for someone else, or 2. Figure out a way to like what is being offered.

In the end, I hope it all works out for everyone, but I've never seen a situation that involved a union work out for anyone other than the union executives.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Nope*



Stumpgrinder said:


> I have a couple of thoughts . 1. I will not " thank" the cat1 operators. It was their obligation to both a) handle the release b) prevent it in the first place . This is exactly what I mean about safety being a personal obligation and responsibility. And if you're going to tell me the catalyst release was a mechanical failure ( maybe it was, I do not have a clue) I'll tell you that, hey, that stuff happens sometimes. If there was mayonnaise and koolaid running through the pipes at ambient temps they'd have people operating the process for 10 bux an hour. If Marathon delayed repair or didn't inspect in a proper fashion, I'm sure old Buzbee will have another yacht soon enough.
> 
> 2. Marathon has every right in the world to try and negotiate their position . They intend to bring your contract in line with their other facilities ( I suppose) you certainly don't have to agree with them, but I'll argue to the death their right to do it.
> 
> ...


You really don't have a clue as to what is going on out there so don't try and pretend you do. Just about everything you have posted is false!


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Really*



SaltyTX said:


> Actually, I believe, for the most part, they would do the right thing. It isn't 1895 any more. Plenty of employee protections in place now. Today you, as an employee, can scream from the mountain top to any media outlet and they will gobble up your story of an "evil company" like candy.
> 
> Suppose there was a huge accident and a unit blows up. (Which happens with Union people too; Unions aren't some great magic unicorn savior) The company would be sued into oblivion by someone like Buzbee. If the accident/lawsuit was severe enough, the asset would be sold & taken over by the next company who can make it work. They try to run the unit better. Capitalism at its finest. Unions can't stop this inevitable sequence of events.
> 
> ...


Who exactly do you work for! Been there done that, been through the explosions, seen the lawsuits and that's what it took for the Company to change. Now we have a new Company in town and they are tearing down what the old tried to cleanup. They don't give a **** about any agency, Marathon has coated me and my neighbors twice in the last 9 months with spills. They just write a check, hope everyone goes away and keeps on trucking.

In my time out there I have seen 24 co-workers die and with the exception of two, the Company can be blamed and was blamed in all those deaths. Yes we choose to work out there and there are risk just like there are in many jobs. All we ask for is the Company to do its part in mitigating those risk which they have not and don't appear to have any desire to do so. The union safety reps are our voice, it's all we got. I have worked for Amoco, BP, and now Marathon, they will all tell you they run a safe facility but the reality is they are going to push it to limit and do their best to get away with as much as they can. BP made a huge effort in upgrading the place, and out of the three probably cared about safety more than the others but it took 15 lives to make them see that.

With the culture we work in now, we are headed down that same dark road!
From a safety standpoint we are not really asking for that much more, just don't take away what we already have.


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

ChuChu said:


> And just what unions pushed for Obamacare? Look at who they were and where they are. And who they represent.


Ok, I did look, watch the video, USW supports it.
http://www.usw.org/video/how-the-unions-support-climate-change-obamacare

It gets better, IBEW gave $10K to Shiela Jackson Lee
http://maplight.org/us-congress/con...s_sector=any&business_industry=any&source=All

Hope that helps you.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

gater said:


> You really don't have a clue as to what is going on out there so don't try and pretend you do. Just about everything you have posted is false!


 Maybe not. Maybe I haven't been in there quite a bit in the last 6 months.

Maybe.....

Tell me what Im wrong about vs what we don't agree about .


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## BrandonH (Oct 15, 2006)

flatscat1 said:


> People often accept a job knowing what the benefits and wage are.


I've been staying out of this conversation because I know how heated the discussion can get. Just to touch on the point of benefits...a major issue we have at our facility is that yes we hired on knowing the above, however in the 8 years I've been there our benefits keep getting cut. I don't believe we're asking for more, we are just trying to recover some things that we lost. Our last contract negotiations took place while the company strategically filed bankruptcy, which in turn took all negotiating power out of our hands and we got hosed. Since then they have made record profits and the year our raise was only 2% the CEO made over 70 million. I can't speak for others since I don't know their situation of the logistics of their facility.

I agree with most here that nobody wins in a strike, however it is the nature of the beast where I work. I didn't go seeking a union facility for employment, it just happened that the one that offered me a job was union. I made a decision to accept the job since I need to provide for my family. I see both good and bad sides to the union.


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## goatchze (Aug 1, 2006)

msf62000 said:


> So it sounds like your approach is wait till disaster strikes then lets do something about it. I'm sorry thats been done before. I believe preventing disaster is the best course of action. Why wait until its to late? Every safety policy/procedure was written in blood by injury or death. I do feel like I work for a good company I also believe that the union does their part in this too. No I don't believe I would be reduced to minimum wage if there were no more unions tomorrow. I do however believe that with time they will slowly but surely do away with medical, pension, 401k, etc... If I didn't want any of these benefits I could go to work for one of the many contractors in my plant and make more per hour than I currently do. I choose to the benefits and the union. I did work for a nonunion facility before I came to work where I am currently employed. It was a good job made a good living, but slowly but surely they are doing away with their benefits. They used to have a pension and 401k match up to 10%. Now as a new hire you only get 2% match towards your 401k. All the old timers told me to get out while I was young and go to work for a union company so I listened to them and they were right. *Now they can't keep no one there for more than a year. Get them trained up and qualified and they jump ship just asI did for a better life*. Do I feel entitled? No, but us doing a contract negotiation is no different than you walking in and asking your boss for a raise. The difference is this affects 850,000 of us. I worked my way thru school got my degree work at multiple facilities before I landed the job I have and I have a good job.


And in a freemarket system, that's how it should go. If it hurts them badly enough, they'll change their compensation structure to keep people around longer.



BrandonH said:


> ... they have made record profits and the year our raise was only 2% the CEO made over 70 million. ...


BrandonH, do you work for a vertically integrated company? You have to keep in mind that when the "record profits" or the "billions" are made by the majors, it is typically on the E&P side. That's why Stumpgrinder is right that it may not be the best time to negotiate as E&P is taking it on the chin right now.

But as others have said, I hope you guys get it worked out soon before to much pain is incurred.


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## waterwolf (Mar 6, 2005)

*Relax*



Oso Blanco said:


> You do not have a clue. I have 35 years in a non-union shop. I started as a groundsman and I am Manager now. I will put my non-union lineman up against your union boys any day. They are two time world champion all around lineman rodeo winners. We have the lowest SADI and CADI numbers in the state of Texas (Outage Response). Unskilled my arse. I will not even interview a union lineman.


Didn't say all...just most I have encountered. I'm sure you have non-union lineman that are true craftsman in our trade.if your good your good especially in our line of work that can be so unforgiving ..Sadi and Cadi for your footprint and demographics may be the best..add 2.4 million customers industrial,commercial and residential and work the numbers. I may be wrong but I'm sure you have hired some x-union employees and may not know it...we go to the same rodeos in Texas and Kansas City and have winner also,been doing it for years. You did say your a manager.


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## sweenyite (Feb 22, 2009)

gater said:


> Who exactly do you work for! Been there done that, been through the explosions, seen the lawsuits and that's what it took for the Company to change. Now we have a new Company in town and they are tearing down what the old tried to cleanup. They don't give a **** about any agency, Marathon has coated me and my neighbors twice in the last 9 months with spills. They just write a check, hope everyone goes away and keeps on trucking.
> 
> In my time out there I have seen 24 co-workers die and with the exception of two, the Company can be blamed and was blamed in all those deaths. Yes we choose to work out there and there are risk just like there are in many jobs. All we ask for is the Company to do its part in mitigating those risk which they have not and don't appear to have any desire to do so. The union safety reps are our voice, it's all we got. I have worked for Amoco, BP, and now Marathon, they will all tell you they run a safe facility but the reality is they are going to push it to limit and do their best to get away with as much as they can. BP made a huge effort in upgrading the place, and out of the three probably cared about safety more than the others but it took 15 lives to make them see that.
> 
> ...


Not trying to argue with you, but the union safety rep is NOT all you have. These folks work for you too... at least, you are paying them out of every paycheck as well. 
https://www.osha.gov/html/Feed_Back.html

I sure hope everyone gets a favorable agreement and back to work quick, fast, and in a hurry!


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## ctcrop (Jan 5, 2012)

flatscat1 said:


> The economic estimates I read say another 50,000 job losses across the energy sector this year. Many believe oil will hover in the $50/bbl range through 2015, and if this is the case, there are another 250,000 expected job losses in Texas alone next year as nearly 2/3 of rigs may be laid down. Such upstream declines will surely impact the downstream at some point.
> 
> I agree you deserve a safe work environment, and if your workplace is unsafe then I completely side with you.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you are saying. You are completely correct about medical costs rising, knowing what our benefits and wages are, etc. Problem is, the costs are rising higher & faster than our wages can keep up. All the while, these corporations continue to set record profits year after year. Also, I'm hourly and I own stock in my company. As for the price of oil affecting the thousands of other jobs, it's horrible. I pray that everyone affected can rebound. Please keep this in mind-as a union employee I understand what my wages & benefits package contains. I also understand the every 3 years the contract in which I work under will expire. Meaning every 3yrs my union brothers & sisters & I will have to bargain (sometimes fight) for better work conditions (not necessarily a "safety" condition), a pay increase (or to just keep it the same), better medical benefits or plans, and, like this contract, keep our work in house, etc. Also, keep in mind that without unions & contracts, none of us (for sure in our industry -refining/chemical plants) union or non-union, would have safe work environments, retirement benefits, insurance, etc.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Info*



sweenyite said:


> Not trying to argue with you, but the union safety rep is NOT all you have. These folks work for you too... at least, you are paying them out of every paycheck as well.
> https://www.osha.gov/html/Feed_Back.html
> 
> I sure hope everyone gets a favorable agreement and back to work quick, fast, and in a hurry!


Thanks, we had to play that card here recently.


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## HTJ (May 26, 2011)

There seems to be a lot of focus on the Texas City facility, and a recurring theme of safety concerns. Unless I've missed it there hasn't been a peep regarding LHR or Deer Park refineries, are those folks just coat tailing for a pay raise? 

Without getting too personal I am intimately familiar with the inspection protocol at the TX City Refinery, and have been long acquainted with the jeffe and can tell you for absolute fact he is without gray area. I can also say post 2005 that a bevy of safety measures were put into place, tons of inspectors hired and millions spent on inspection, repairs and upgrades. But the same sour attitude was present with the majority of operators I encountered, as though they just wanted to get back to business as usual. There was zero perceptible change to the attitude or safety culture. And that is what you need gentlemen, not more procedures and committees.


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## wfishtx (Apr 10, 2006)

goatchze said:


> *And in a freemarket system, that's how it should go. If it hurts them badly enough, they'll change their compensation structure to keep people around longer.*
> 
> BrandonH, do you work for a vertically integrated company? You have to keep in mind that when the "record profits" or the "billions" are made by the majors, it is typically on the E&P side. That's why Stumpgrinder is right that it may not be the best time to negotiate as E&P is taking it on the chin right now.
> 
> But as others have said, I hope you guys get it worked out soon before to much pain is incurred.


Bingo. You guys want to put the hurt on these employers that don't treat their employees fair, walk out and watch them crumble.

That CEO isn't going to make $70 million if he doesn't have a workforce working for him.


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## ctcrop (Jan 5, 2012)

HTJ said:


> There seems to be a lot of focus on the Texas City facility, and a recurring theme of safety concerns. Unless I've missed it there hasn't been a peep regarding LHR or Deer Park refineries, are those folks just coat tailing for a pay raise?
> 
> Without getting too personal I am intimately familiar with the inspection protocol at the TX City Refinery, and have been long acquainted with the jeffe and can tell you for absolute fact he is without gray area. I can also say post 2005 that a bevy of safety measures were put into place, tons of inspectors hired and millions spent on inspection, repairs and upgrades. But the same sour attitude was present with the majority of operators I encountered, as though they just wanted to get back to business as usual. There was zero perceptible change to the attitude or safety culture. And that is what you need gentlemen, not more procedures and committees.


That sour attitude will always be present. Why? Because most people hate change be it for better or worse. The issues with safety aren't necessarily aimed at procedures & committees. The "safety" concerns are pointed more towards the fact that many of our (industry in general) facilities are under staffed. So the safety aspect of the negotiations appears to be geared more towards staffing (not enough operators) and keeping trained/qualified maintenance employees in house rather than contracted. Many of us work many days a year on overtime. Sure some of it is wanted (who doesn't like the extra $$), but most of the OT worked is actually forced. Why is it forced? Because the plants are under-staffed and by law our jobs have to filled. Ya don't work the OT voluntarily, they put you on standby or on call & force you to work.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

gater said:


> Who exactly do you work for! Been there done that, been through the explosions, seen the lawsuits and that's what it took for the Company to change. Now we have a new Company in town and they are tearing down what the old tried to cleanup. They don't give a **** about any agency, Marathon has coated me and my neighbors twice in the last 9 months with spills. They just write a check, hope everyone goes away and keeps on trucking.
> 
> In my time out there I have seen 24 co-workers die and with the exception of two, the Company can be blamed and was blamed in all those deaths. Yes we choose to work out there and there are risk just like there are in many jobs. All we ask for is the Company to do its part in mitigating those risk which they have not and don't appear to have any desire to do so. The union safety reps are our voice, it's all we got. I have worked for Amoco, BP, and now Marathon, they will all tell you they run a safe facility but the reality is they are going to push it to limit and do their best to get away with as much as they can. BP made a huge effort in upgrading the place, and out of the three probably cared about safety more than the others but it took 15 lives to make them see that.
> 
> ...


I worked there 30+ years BP was the absolute worse.
Never got the opportunity to work for Marathon only knew the boys across the fence.
All BP wanted to hear was good news and had a policy of 
shooting the messenger if it wasn't good. I know that for a fact
Again they took over the refinery in 1998 and constantly cut TAR and operating budgets over some very loud and heated protest that cost some good people.

The only reason they changed was after the 2005 Isom Fubar
and were forced by 15 deaths and 170 injuries.

The refinery was in need of major upgrades in 98 they ran it
till it popped and the safety culture popped the balloon.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

ctcrop said:


> That sour attitude will always be present. Why? Because most people hate change be it for better or worse. The issues with safety aren't necessarily aimed at procedures & committees. The "safety" concerns are pointed more towards the fact that many of our (industry in general) facilities are under staffed. So the safety aspect of the negotiations appears to be geared more towards staffing (not enough operators) and keeping trained/qualified maintenance employees in house rather than contracted. Many of us work many days a year on overtime. Sure some of it is wanted (who doesn't like the extra $$), but most of the OT worked is actually forced. Why is it forced? Because the plants are under-staffed and by law our jobs have to filled. _Ya don't work the OT voluntarily, they put you on standby or on call & force you to work._


_
_
And this is new how ? I did a lot of scheduling of operators.

The only thing that caused more howling than too much o/t was not enough o/t . That's a solid truth


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## HTJ (May 26, 2011)

Stumpgrinder said:


> [/I]
> And this is new how ? I did a lot of scheduling of operators.
> 
> The only thing that caused more howling than too much o/t was not enough o/t . That's a solid truth


Thank you


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## ctcrop (Jan 5, 2012)

Stumpgrinder said:


> [/I]
> And this is new how ? I did a lot of scheduling of operators.
> 
> The only thing that caused more howling than too much o/t was not enough o/t . That's a solid truth


The solid truth it is! Dang sure can't please everyone. It's no secret that very few people do not want OT. Most of us want at least some OT. The problem is the 18hr shifts that occur from under staffing. Some of that is self inflicted with an example being abuse of sick leave. But that's not the only thing. The problem lies in not having 1. Not enough operators to have full crews 2. Zero to too few relief operators to cover open shifts/schedules. There is nothing new about this. But it can be fixed or at least addressed. Fixing it requires full shifts with full pool/relief ops (minimum 1 relief op/shift) and that is mostly never the case. So lets address it - full shifts with at least 2 reliefs to cover 4 shifts. That's just on the operations side. The maintenance side is a totally different ball game. Where I work, in house maintenance is slim. We are several pipefitters, boiler maker, welder, etc. short. Those guys work over all week long then have to pull weekend duty. You can only push them so far before they break. You know you've reached that point when on Saturday night not one of them will answer the phone to come out and work on whatever equipment that just took a dump on you.


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## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Fatigue*



Stumpgrinder said:


> [/I]
> And this is new how ? I did a lot of scheduling of operators.
> 
> The only thing that caused more howling than too much o/t was not enough o/t . That's a solid truth


Up until this past Saturday I have had 3 weeks off since September 1st. I'm tired we are all tired, I don't want no more OT and I damned sure don't want to be forced to work it or wear a pager. Now you got some of those same tired supervisors that have been working those same long hours out there running the place. That coupled with a bunch of just out of college engineers that couldn't tell what end of a valve wrench to use. It's a scary combination fatigue and lack of knowledge. All we can hope for is that know one gets hurt.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

ctcrop said:


> The solid truth it is! Dang sure can't please everyone. It's no secret that very few people do not want OT. Most of us want at least some OT. The problem is the 18hr shifts that occur from under staffing. Some of that is self inflicted with an example being abuse of sick leave. But that's not the only thing. The problem lies in not having 1. Not enough operators to have full crews 2. Zero to too few relief operators to cover open shifts/schedules. There is nothing new about this. But it can be fixed or at least addressed. Fixing it requires full shifts with full pool/relief ops (minimum 1 relief op/shift) and that is mostly never the case. So lets address it - full shifts with at least 2 reliefs to cover 4 shifts. That's just on the operations side. The maintenance side is a totally different ball game. Where I work, in house maintenance is slim. We are several pipefitters, boiler maker, welder, etc. short. Those guys work over all week long then have to pull weekend duty. You can only push them so far before they break. You know you've reached that point when on Saturday night not one of them will answer the phone to come out and work on whatever equipment that just took a dump on you.


This problem is cyclic and will always be so.
In 1982 I was the second highest paid Chief Operator in the refinery. Put 3000 miles on my truck that year it only traveled to the refinery. I was working both as an Operator and Chief positions we were so short staffed. The next year I got two days, both are exceptions to the rule.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

gater said:


> Up until this past Saturday I have had 3 weeks off since September 1st. I'm tired we are all tired, I don't want no more OT and I damned sure don't want to be forced to work it or wear a pager. Now you got some of those same tired supervisors that have been working those same long hours out there running the place. That coupled with a bunch of just out of college engineers that couldn't tell what end of a valve wrench to use. It's a scary combination fatigue and lack of knowledge. All we can hope for is that know one gets hurt.


Gator fatigue can be rough on this we agree.
Before the days of pagers my unit had worked so much 
no one wanted any more. If you turned it down on a holiday they were taking our holiday pay. I can't count the days I was forced over or out. The only positive is we were still on 8 hour 
shifts. Never did like the 12 hour shift as an operator or supervision. All people could see is a 7 day long change that you were rarely going to get.


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## ctcrop (Jan 5, 2012)

I just so happen to work our highest operations position (Gas Dispatcher). My responsibilities are plant wide including outside suppliers of H2, O2, N2, & a couple more. I also deal directly with our neighbor CPC (due to fuel gas, propane, air, NG, etc.). My job is a 1-man job. Currently, we have 2 ops out on sick leave/vacation with one of those retiring very soon. We have 1 relief op who is filling one of the open schedules. That leaves 3 of us to cover 4 shifts. This has been a reoccurring theme for the past 10yrs. The relief operator I speak of is not a permanent operator with us. He actually has a permanent schedule in the boiler houses so he has to bounce back and forth (and quite often). Our truck logs up to 6k miles per yr (no joke). I forgot to mention that we are responsible for all of the electrical throughout the yard (power & sub stations, and permitting of all of the electrical system work -- OSBL). Ya think maybe we could at least use a "permanent" relief operator?? Nope, got turned down during negotiations. This is where I get some of the understaffed stuff from and this is with just one position inside of my plant.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

BrandonH said:


> I've been staying out of this conversation because I know how heated the discussion can get. Just to touch on the point of benefits...a major issue we have at our facility is that yes we hired on knowing the above, however in the 8 years I've been there our benefits keep getting cut. I don't believe we're asking for more, we are just trying to recover some things that we lost. Our last contract negotiations took place while the company strategically filed bankruptcy, which in turn took all negotiating power out of our hands and we got hosed. Since then they have made record profits and the year our raise was only 2% the CEO made over 70 million. I can't speak for others since I don't know their situation of the logistics of their facility.
> 
> I agree with most here that nobody wins in a strike, however it is the nature of the beast where I work. I didn't go seeking a union facility for employment, it just happened that the one that offered me a job was union. I made a decision to accept the job since I need to provide for my family. I see both good and bad sides to the union.


I recognize those numbers and your description! To be more specific though, didn't the CEO receive a $77 million bonus in just one year?
And your plant just buys extremely sour crude from the market and refines it for a profit, right? No E&P cost.
Like you, I often thought about what was offered by the company and myself when I accepted the job. And yes, it deteriorated each year. 
I am sorry for anyone who works there. My sincere suggestion is to find another job if you are young enough. That plant will just chew you up until the flavor is gone then spit you out.


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## JustSlabs (Jun 19, 2005)

I have buddies that are locked in and buddies that are locked out of the gates right now. I can honestly say I am glad I work in a non-union facility.


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## flatscat1 (Jun 2, 2005)

ctcrop said:


> I agree with what you are saying. You are completely correct about medical costs rising, knowing what our benefits and wages are, etc. Problem is, *the costs are rising higher & faster than our wages can keep up*.* All the while, these corporations continue to set record profits year after year.* Also, I'm hourly and I own stock in my company. As for the price of oil affecting the thousands of other jobs, it's horrible. I pray that everyone affected can rebound. Please keep this in mind-as a union employee I understand what my wages & benefits package contains. I also understand the every 3 years the contract in which I work under will expire. Meaning every 3yrs my union brothers & sisters & I will have to bargain (sometimes fight) for better work conditions (not necessarily a "safety" condition), a pay increase (or to just keep it the same), better medical benefits or plans, and, like this contract, keep our work in house, etc._ *Also, keep in mind that without unions & contracts, none of us (for sure in our industry -refining/chemical plants) union or non-union, would have safe work environments, retirement benefits, insurance, etc.*_




I respect your thoughts on the matter, but disagree with the highlighted points. Rising healthcare costs are impacting every industry, not just yours, and other non-unionized industries are not going on strike demanding costs be offset by their employer. Go ask someone who has been dropped by their employer all together and not is on Obmancare. I bet they would envy your unacceptable plan.

The profits, or losses, of your company, and the compensation package of your CEO, have absolutely no impact on your claim for a piece of that pie. That is Obama logic and what the Occupy Wall Street protestors claimed, and I absolutely disagree with it. If you own stock, great, you made money (shared in the pie, as a partial owner of the company) and hopefully you owned enough to offset your rising healtchare costs. If you don't own stock, you get your salary and whatever you negotiated, that's how it works, regardless of industry.

Lastly, to think that your union and contract keeps you safe from danger, and without it you wouldn't have retirement benefits, insurance, etc. is silly. There are 0% unionized jobs in my industry, and we have matching 401k's, decent (but expensive) medical insurance, and a safe work environment, and lots of perks....and we don't even have OSHA. With only 7% of the USA unionized, a number in decline, how do you explain all that money in 401ks and all those corporate insurance plans?

It bugs me that union people always speak as if the company were always out to get them, screw them over every chance they got. That is what you sound like. You would not fit in well with my happy employees in our capitalistic office environment.


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## poppadawg (Aug 10, 2007)

Do strikers get paid by the union while on strike?


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

poppadawg said:


> Do strikers get paid by the union while on strike?


LOL I never got paid a penny.


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## ctcrop (Jan 5, 2012)

flatscat1 said:


> [/B][/I]
> 
> I respect your thoughts on the matter, but disagree with the highlighted points. Rising healthcare costs are impacting every industry, not just yours, and other non-unionized industries are not going on strike demanding costs be offset by their employer. Go ask someone who has been dropped by their employer all together and not is on Obmancare. I bet they would envy your unacceptable plan.
> 
> ...


First off, I never once said that our contracts keep us safe or that we wouldn't have benefits without them. Fact is, everyone (both union & non-union) benefit from contracts that the various unions agree to. Second, I never once said that the company I work for is out to get or screw me. I happen to like my job, my bosses, & my coworkers. I failed to mention that I volunteer to keep my coworkers, contractors, office workers, & the public safe. How? I'm a freaking Captain in our Fire Dept, a high angle/confined space rescue tech, & a HAZMAT Incident Commander & tech. I don't get paid anything extra for all of that except for the tiny bit of OT for the dang hard hours I put in training. It's all good though bro. You're right about one thing, I would definitely not fit in in your capitalistic "office" environment. I'm an outdoorsman & I prefer to keep it that way, even at work.


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## wfishtx (Apr 10, 2006)

poppadawg said:


> Do strikers get paid by the union while on strike?





ChuChu said:


> LOL I never got paid a penny.


I'm guessing those union executives are still cashing their paychecks during those strikes while their members are trying to figure out how to feed their families.

Some of you union guys complain about the CEO's salary and yet you willfully continue to line the pockets of union executives for very little to nothing in return.

Maybe its time some of you stopped relying on a union to get you what you think you deserve and start giving others a reason to pay you what you're truly worth. Further your education, get the necessary certifications/trainings you need to be better than everyone else in your industry and then you can name your own price. Stop waiting for others to get you what you "think" you deserve even though you've done nothing to support what you're asking for.


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## Mad Mike (Dec 28, 2005)

poppadawg said:


> Do strikers get paid by the union while on strike?


Yes


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## flatscat1 (Jun 2, 2005)

ctcrop said:


> First off, I never once said that our contracts keep us safe or that we wouldn't have benefits without them. Fact is, everyone (both union & non-union) benefit from contracts that the various unions agree to. Second, I never once said that the company I work for is out to get or screw me. I happen to like my job, my bosses, & my coworkers. I failed to mention that I volunteer to keep my coworkers, contractors, office workers, & the public safe. How? I'm a freaking Captain in our Fire Dept, a high angle/confined space rescue tech, & a HAZMAT Incident Commander & tech. I don't get paid anything extra for all of that except for the tiny bit of OT for the dang hard hours I put in training. It's all good though bro. You're right about one thing, I would definitely not fit in in your capitalistic "office" environment. I'm an outdoorsman & I prefer to keep it that way, even at work.


I quoted exactly what you said - without unions and contracts non one would have safe work environments, retirement benefits, insurnace. Here's is your quote:

*"Also, keep in mind that without unions & contracts, none of us (for sure in our industry -refining/chemical plants) union or non-union, would have safe work environments, retirement benefits, insurance, etc."*

I'm a pretty big outdoorsman myself. My office job enables me to keep a house and boat in Galveston and another boat down in south TX, in Arroyo City. Had 24 covies of quail last Saturday at the lease.

My point was that the people in my office are very happy. We do not track vacation days, pretty much be out whenever you want, but you don't make much money on the days you are out.

We are a performance based culture. I pay my primary assistant a base salary and my partner and I each pay her 2% of what we earn each year. She's thrilled and just bought her family a new house last year. She's never asked for a raise, threatened to quit, walked out or even complained in 14 years. In all, my little group (4 of us) have been at the same company here for over 90 combined years....without union representation and having paid no dues, other than hard work for ourselves. That's the office / job environment I was talking about.


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## msf62000 (Aug 24, 2007)

flatscat1 said:


> I quoted exactly what you said - without unions and contracts non one would have safe work environments, retirement benefits, insurnace. Here's is your quote:
> 
> *"Also, keep in mind that without unions & contracts, none of us (for sure in our industry -refining/chemical plants) union or non-union, would have safe work environments, retirement benefits, insurance, etc."*
> 
> ...


Buddy thats a wonderful thing that you do for your employees and if everyone was like what you say you do then the world would be a better place. The fact is this is big business and we are the little people it doesn't work that way out here. We are not performanced based. We are contract based and for us to get a little extra piece of the pie or just keep some of the pie we have to negotiate. All we want to do is go to work do our jobs and return home the same way we left so we can spend time with and support our families.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

wfishtx said:


> I'm guessing those union executives are still cashing their paychecks during those strikes while their members are trying to figure out how to feed their families.
> 
> Some of you union guys complain about the CEO's salary and yet you willfully continue to line the pockets of union executives for very little to nothing in return.
> 
> Maybe its time some of you stopped relying on a union to get you what you think you deserve and start giving others a reason to pay you what you're truly worth. Further your education, get the necessary certifications/trainings you need to be better than everyone else in your industry and then you can name your own price. Stop waiting for others to get you what you "think" you deserve even though you've done nothing to support what you're asking for.


I'm guessing you have never worked in a union shop. I did for 37 years. And some of those years were rough. Because all I wanted was to go do my job and go home to my family alive and with all my fingers, I was harassed at time enough I considered quitting. What did I do? I refused to drive a company truck to a beer joint and drink beer all evening with the bosses. I wouldn't get involved with their questionable activities, like selling scrap, faking time sheets, and faking petty cash receipts. I simply minded my own business. For that I was on a black list and they tried everything they could to fire me. My union stood right beside me in grievance hearings and one international rep stood up to take a punch in the face by a supervisor. The very one I had complained about to the union as I was in fear for my personal safety. Two supervisors ended up getting fired for that. The last day I worked, I had a supervisor come to me and apologized. He admitted he was wrong and he realized all I wanted was to be left alone to do my job. 
That is what the union does best. 
Do they receive their pay? I can't say, but if there are no dues being collected, where would the money come from? And money spent by the local has to have the executive boards approval before payment.


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## HTJ (May 26, 2011)

"Also, keep in mind that without unions & contracts, none of us (for sure in our industry -refining/chemical plants) union or non-union, would have safe work environments, retirement benefits, insurance, etc."

Uhhhh no. Once upon a time Unions played a critical role in getting wages out of the poverty level and correcting some very real safety concerns and unfair labor practises. Nowadays they are just another service business with an emotional and for some, sentimental attachment. Kinda like a public defender they get paid no matter what. Unions also normalize wages, which is great for the ****birds and average performers but dooms the standout players to mediocrity. 

My company could not possibly treat me any better, has my back 24/7 on any safety matter and has benefits on par or better than any service company. And not so much as a union sticker in sight.

There was some real meat and potatoes in some of the previous posts about understaffing, I think yall may have a valid point with this but you really oughta take a hard and openminded look at your benefits/wage package 'cuz you are waaaay ahead of the remainder of the construction/manufacturing industry, particularly on the Gulf and west coast. Waaaaay ahead


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Mad Mike said:


> Yes


I don't have a clue about the USW the OCAW paid. 
In 1980 we got a whopping 10 dollars for
a picket. To keep paying that had to take out
a mortgage on the Union Hall.


----------



## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

HTJ said:


> "Also, keep in mind that without unions & contracts, none of us (for sure in our industry -refining/chemical plants) union or non-union, would have safe work environments, retirement benefits, insurance, etc."
> 
> Uhhhh no. Once upon a time Unions played a critical role in getting wages out of the poverty level and correcting some very real safety concerns and unfair labor practises. Nowadays they are just another service business with an emotional and for some, sentimental attachment. Kinda like a public defender they get paid no matter what. Unions also normalize wages, which is great for the ****birds and average performers but dooms the standout players to mediocrity.
> 
> ...


You are wrong. Every man and woman I worked with in my 37 years that were represented were top notch people, workers and friends. You have been watching too many ACORN news reports.


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## HTJ (May 26, 2011)

ChuChu said:


> You are wrong. Every man and woman I worked with in my 37 years that were represented were top notch people, workers and friends. You have been watching too many ACORN news reports.


Having not walked in your shoes I can only say great for your positive experience. I am the 25 year mark in my business and I have personally negotiated every component of my wage/benefit package without having to pay someone else a monthly fee to do it. I have never considered going on strike or had to miss getting paid while others did. The handful times I found myself in a trying situation I found a work thru, either raising my own voice or utilizing my chain of command or heaven forbid, just sucking it up and pushing through it. I worked for one company 15 years and when the CEO got greedy and took us in an unfavorable direction I made a decision and left. Sometimes you gotta let 'em drop and look out for yourself.


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## Empty Pockets CC (Feb 18, 2009)

People still pay union thieves to negotiate variables of their employment today? I guess that makes 93% of us out there idiots, unskilled, or under represented. 
If you don't like where you work whether it be pay, safety concerns, etc and they're following the law then theirs the door. 
People are having to take cuts around the country right now...oh wait only 93% of us non union people have to take cuts. The other 7% get locked out and refuse to work. Looks like the 7% are a bunch of whiners. But I'm just in the 93%...what do I know.


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## txfisherman35 (Mar 10, 2014)

Empty Pockets CC said:


> People still pay union thieves to negotiate variables of their employment today? I guess that makes 93% of us out there idiots, unskilled, or under represented.
> If you don't like where you work whether it be pay, safety concerns, etc and they're following the law then theirs the door.
> People are having to take cuts around the country right now...oh wait only 93% of us non union people have to take cuts. The other 7% get locked out and refuse to work. Looks like the 7% are a bunch of whiners. But I'm just in the 93%...what do I know.


Not as much as you think you do.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Empty Pockets CC said:


> People still pay union thieves to negotiate variables of their employment today? I guess that makes 93% of us out there idiots, unskilled, or under represented.
> If you don't like where you work whether it be pay, safety concerns, etc and they're following the law then theirs the door.
> People are having to take cuts around the country right now...oh wait only 93% of us non union people have to take cuts. The other 7% get locked out and refuse to work. Looks like the 7% are a bunch of whiners. But I'm just in the 93%...what do I know.


What you been smoking?


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## Empty Pockets CC (Feb 18, 2009)

ChuChu said:


> What you been smoking?


The Right to Work pipe. 
Back to the question though. People really pay other people to represent them still in today's workplace? Why? Why can't they represent themselves? Why is the majority of the American workforce non unionized. Are you calling all of us unskilled and uneducated. Just curious. Is a unionized man better than a non unionized man?


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## Empty Pockets CC (Feb 18, 2009)

txfisherman35 said:


> Not as much as you think you do.


You're probably right but I don't need to know much about this subject to feel confident that I'm right. About 93% right and getting more right as time goes on.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Empty Pockets CC said:


> The Right to Work pipe.
> Back to the question though. People really pay other people to represent them still in today's workplace? Why? Why can't they represent themselves? Why is the majority of the American workforce non unionized. Are you calling all of us unskilled and uneducated. Just curious. Is a unionized man better than a non unionized man?


I kinda figure they are equal. Go back and read my first post.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

ctcrop said:


> First off, I never once said that our contracts keep us safe or that we wouldn't have benefits without them. Fact is, everyone (both union & non-union) benefit from contracts that the various unions agree to.


Negative. Maybe non-union employees of the same company are covered under a union contract, but beyond that, unions just really don't have that much effect on the rest of us. The place I work has no unions, no looming threat of unionization, no unionized competitors, and for that matter, very few applicants that ever even bring it up. Our pay scale is based on what we as individuals do, we've got badass insurance (until Obama finds out about it) that is paid for by the company, we have a safe working environment, good vacation terms, 401K, etc. etc. etc.: not because of any union negotiation, but simply that it made good financial sense for the company to offer such benefits: safety pays for itself, vacation, insurance, retirement, etc. are simply another facet to employee compensation, often with favorable tax effects for the company. They get good people because they offer such a package, and everybody benefits. Nobody held them over the fire to offer these, nobody's ever even dreamed of striking: we like working here. The guys that don't cut it don't last, the guys that do can go right to the owner or other management with any problems without interference from a union rep. Union guys just seem to have a very inflated view of just how big an effect on the rest of the workplace that their 7% of the population actually has.


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

Empty Pockets CC said:


> You're probably right but I don't need to know much about this subject to feel confident that I'm right. About 93% right and getting more right as time goes on.


Well maybe you just haven't given enough thought to what the Unions have given America in the last few years. Let me help you out.

Detroit Bankruptcy 
IRS unable to fire Union workers
GM Bailout
Chrysler Bailout
Teachers Unions, as evident by some of these posts
Post Office losing money
Sheila Jackson Lee

Hmmmm...I guess I am wrong, never mind.

Great post by the way, good thing 93% of us got it right, somebody always has to pay for the union label.

Oh one more while I am typing, how could I forget the Soviet Union.


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## WilliamH (May 21, 2004)

Lagunaroy said:


> Well maybe you just haven't given enough thought to what the Unions have given America in the last few years. Let me help you out.
> 
> Detroit Bankruptcy
> IRS unable to fire Union workers
> ...


I'm back in the U.S.S.R.
You don't know how lucky you are boy
Back in the U.S.S.R. (Yeah)


----------



## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Ok*



wfishtx said:


> I'm guessing those union executives are still cashing their paychecks during those strikes while their members are trying to figure out how to feed their families.
> 
> Some of you union guys complain about the CEO's salary and yet you willfully continue to line the pockets of union executives for very little to nothing in return.
> 
> Maybe its time some of you stopped relying on a union to get you what you think you deserve and start giving others a reason to pay you what you're truly worth. Further your education, get the necessary certifications/trainings you need to be better than everyone else in your industry and then you can name your own price. Stop waiting for others to get you what you "think" you deserve even though you've done nothing to support what you're asking for.


What was it we were asking for.....


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## longhornbubba (Jul 7, 2006)

Gater don't feed the trolls.


----------



## flatscat1 (Jun 2, 2005)

msf62000 said:


> Buddy thats a wonderful thing that you do for your employees and if everyone was like what you say you do then the world would be a better place. The fact is this is big business and we are the little people it doesn't work that way out here. We are not performanced based. We are contract based and for us to get a little extra piece of the pie or just keep some of the pie we have to negotiate. All we want to do is go to work do our jobs and return home the same way we left so we can spend time with and support our families.


I totally respect your work, and your desire to better your family. I'm not knocking you at all. My point is that your Union is doing it wrong. Don't bargain for scraps from the table, bargain for a piece of the pie! Then at least public support will be on your side, which it currently is not. You ask for a raise when wages elsewhere are stagnent....healthcare improvements when others are losing theirs, wages higher than average. What the helll is a pension??

I get it that you are skilled and deserve it, but the public doesn't see that. Show your value. Ask for what the public gets already....a 401k (maybe with a match after x years service). An ESPP plan maybe? I don't know, I've never been hourly, but you have got to negotiate for long term performance, loyalty, your value over a scab, your desire to make the company better, etc. From highest to lowest pay, every employee iin our big company has some form of long term compensation carrot to strive for. Employers will listen to those proposals over demands, and the public will empathize too.

Don't bargain like you are a postal service employee....show up for work, get pay check, retire one day. You are more talented, and take more risk, than that!


----------



## Reloading (Oct 27, 2014)

flatscat1 said:


> I totally respect your work, and your desire to better your family. I'm not knocking you at all. My point is that your Union is doing it wrong. Don't bargain for scraps from the table, bargain for a piece of the pie! Then at least public support will be on your side, which it currently is not. You ask for a raise when wages elsewhere are stagnent....healthcare improvements when others are losing theirs, wages higher than average. What the helll is a pension??
> 
> I get it that you are skilled and deserve it, but the public doesn't see that. Show your value. Ask for what the public gets already....a 401k (maybe with a match after x years service). An ESPP plan maybe? I don't know, I've never been hourly, but you have got to negotiate for long term performance, loyalty, your value over a scab, your desire to make the company better, etc. From highest to lowest pay, every employee iin our big company has some form of long term compensation carrot to strive for. Employers will listen to those proposals over demands, and the public will empathize too.
> 
> Don't bargain like you are a postal service employee....show up for work, get pay check, retire one day. You are more talented, and take more risk, than that!


Good post.

The typical Union leadership can't correctly spell "Cat". Why are they employed by the Hall vs having a "real job"? 
I deal with these guys all day, every day.:headknock

Dang, I just broke a promise to myself to stay out of this


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

flatscat1 said:


> I totally respect your work, and your desire to better your family. I'm not knocking you at all. My point is that your Union is doing it wrong. Don't bargain for scraps from the table, bargain for a piece of the pie! Then at least public support will be on your side, which it currently is not. You ask for a raise when wages elsewhere are stagnent....healthcare improvements when others are losing theirs, wages higher than average. What the helll is a pension??
> 
> I get it that you are skilled and deserve it, but the public doesn't see that. Show your value. Ask for what the public gets already....a 401k (maybe with a match after x years service). An ESPP plan maybe? I don't know, I've never been hourly, but you have got to negotiate for long term performance, loyalty, your value over a scab, your desire to make the company better, etc. From highest to lowest pay, every employee iin our big company has some form of long term compensation carrot to strive for. Employers will listen to those proposals over demands, and the public will empathize too.
> 
> Don't bargain like you are a postal service employee....show up for work, get pay check, retire one day. You are more talented, and take more risk, than that!


Wow, in the business I was in your post is the definition of "leadership". I wish I was 20 years younger, you would either hire me, or I would hire you.

Might not be a bad idea for posts like this from you more often. Good on ya!


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## redexpress (Apr 5, 2010)

poppadawg said:


> Do strikers get paid by the union while on strike?


 I think I got paid $25 a week out of the strike fund in 1980.


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## dwilliams35 (Oct 8, 2006)

flatscat1 said:


> I totally respect your work, and your desire to better your family. I'm not knocking you at all. My point is that your Union is doing it wrong. Don't bargain for scraps from the table, bargain for a piece of the pie! Then at least public support will be on your side, which it currently is not. You ask for a raise when wages elsewhere are stagnent....healthcare improvements when others are losing theirs, wages higher than average. What the helll is a pension??
> 
> I get it that you are skilled and deserve it, but the public doesn't see that. Show your value. Ask for what the public gets already....a 401k (maybe with a match after x years service). An ESPP plan maybe? I don't know, I've never been hourly, but you have got to negotiate for long term performance, loyalty, your value over a scab, your desire to make the company better, etc. From highest to lowest pay, every employee iin our big company has some form of long term compensation carrot to strive for. Employers will listen to those proposals over demands, and the public will empathize too.
> 
> Don't bargain like you are a postal service employee....show up for work, get pay check, retire one day. You are more talented, and take more risk, than that!


 How often do unions support ESPP's?. It seems rather counterintuitive, wanting their members to become the owners of the company, and having them "taste" a financial incentive that is counter to the general union strategy?


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## bill (May 21, 2004)

With oil so cheap right now, are oil companies saving money with a strike?


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

bill said:


> With oil so cheap right now, are oil companies saving money with a strike?


Not enough to make a bit of difference


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

bill said:


> With oil so cheap right now, are oil companies saving money with a strike?


Took a trading position in MPC, thanks to a post in this thread, I thought it was MRO that had the labor issues, MPC is up 5% since the strike, have a sell set if it gets another 8%.

IMO, the stock goes up until they reach a deal. All things being equal, IMO, oil is a raw material, refining cost are labor and infrastructure. So if you reduce labor costs (read salaried vs hourly) profit increases IMO.

Short answer is oil companies are not the same, producers, pipelines, and refiners. Today almost all were green.


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## bill (May 21, 2004)

Let me try again.

Low cost of oil right now, is the industry making money with the strike, meaning, are the companies saving the labor costs making money if the industry is still operating.

In other words, are the companies involved better off now because the price of oil is low vs having to pay out the wages?

Is the lower operating costs the cause of the stock value raising?


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

bill said:


> Let me try again.
> 
> Low cost of oil right now, is the industry making money with the strike, meaning, are the companies saving the labor costs making money if the industry is still operating.
> 
> ...


MPC, the company with union issues, stock is rising because of lower labor costs. This is temporary, when the strike ends the stock will go down for a few days. Thus, a trading position, I get 8%, I am happy and gone.

IMO, margins are better for refiners with lower crude prices, less raw material costs. I am in no way an expert, lots of hedges involved. I stay with high risk, high reward trades.

I don't think I answered your question, we are closer, ask it again, differently.


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## bill (May 21, 2004)

I was working my way to find an incentive for the companies to settle this quick. 

If they are not loosing money, I'm at a loss.

Safety is always a great talking point. From an outsider, I hate to think it can only be resolved when it's time for contracts to be signed. It's always used and I can see the reason, I don't care what you do for what company, safety is always a serious concern.

Bottom line is IMO, and that's all it is, it will come down to money.

I just still hope it all ends soon and let everyone get back to work.


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## Lagunaroy (Dec 30, 2013)

bill said:


> I was working my way to find an incentive for the companies to settle this quick.
> 
> If they are not loosing money, I'm at a loss.
> 
> ...


Post 194 by flatscat1, is the right answer for all union disputes between the union and industry. Not just the refiners, but his post works for aerospace, autos, and government, I will stop there, so as not to disparage anyone.

By your post I can see your heart is in the right place, but we need to get a work ethic back in this country, no one deserves anything, you earn it! Hardcore yes, it builds character. Ok done.

Thanks for listening, oops meant reading.


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## Jack's Pocket (Jul 16, 2014)

Oil(Money) Companies have no desire to process crude at today's prices.
When crude gets back to 60 to 65 dollars a barrel they will
think about talking seriously.


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

:walkingsm


Lagunaroy said:


> Took a trading position in MPC, thanks to a post in this thread, I thought it was MRO that had the labor issues, MPC is up 5% since the strike, have a sell set if it gets another 8%.
> 
> IMO, the stock goes up until they reach a deal. All things being equal, IMO, oil is a raw material, refining cost are labor and infrastructure. So if you reduce labor costs (read salaried vs hourly) profit increases IMO.
> 
> Short answer is oil companies are not the same, producers, pipelines, and refiners. Today almost all were green.


You're welcome :brew2:


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## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Continued prayers up for cool heads, fair demands (both sides) and a quick and reasonable resolution to the difficulties.

Our communities and peripheral jobs are all in peril while this goes on. Be smart, be reasonable and be safe guys and gals. We're depending on you .


----------



## ctcrop (Jan 5, 2012)

flatscat1 said:


> I totally respect your work, and your desire to better your family. I'm not knocking you at all. My point is that your Union is doing it wrong. Don't bargain for scraps from the table, bargain for a piece of the pie! Then at least public support will be on your side, which it currently is not. You ask for a raise when wages elsewhere are stagnent....healthcare improvements when others are losing theirs, wages higher than average. What the helll is a pension??
> 
> I get it that you are skilled and deserve it, but the public doesn't see that. Show your value. Ask for what the public gets already....a 401k (maybe with a match after x years service). An ESPP plan maybe? I don't know, I've never been hourly, but you have got to negotiate for long term performance, loyalty, your value over a scab, your desire to make the company better, etc. From highest to lowest pay, every employee iin our big company has some form of long term compensation carrot to strive for. Employers will listen to those proposals over demands, and the public will empathize too.
> 
> Don't bargain like you are a postal service employee....show up for work, get pay check, retire one day. You are more talented, and take more risk, than that!


Flatscat1, this post has made more sense than any of your others (at least to me), and you are correct. Here's the thing that most people don't realize (especially those that do not work as a represented employee), we don't have much/if any say in what get's negotiated. Everyone has the opportunity to make suggestions at the local levels, but even then 90% of that is never even discussed. I'm going to ramble here a little bit. For those of you that think any of us represented employees wants to strike, you are sadly mistaken. When I was looking for a job in Process Operations, I didn't apply at union represented facilities only. I applied where anybody was hiring. Just so happened I was hired in a plant that has been unionized for decades. I don't regret for one minute in taking the job as it has been great for me & my family. I give my employer more time than I give my family, and trust me, it sucks. Deal is, I don't have much choice in the matter. It's the nature of the beast. This is also where I grew up. This is where my dad got his start and continues to work (next door) along with my youngest brother. This is what we know, & this is what we are good at. Am I a die-hard union guy? No. But I believe we still have to bargain & fight for what is right. Some people think that we as operators (or anyone that works for a refinery/chem plant for that matter) are rich, or we make a lot of money. Fact is, we aren't and we don't. We are middle class (some upper middle, some lower middle, etc.). We pay a bunch in taxes, we pay a bunch for insurance. Anyway, my point is, unions/contracts/negotiations are a part of a lot of our lives. The little guy (me, my family, my friends, my coworkers) don't have as big of a choice in the matter as some like to believe. I/we don't have control of when the contracts are up & what the $/bbl of oil may be at that time. We can't control the state of the economy. We can only try to negotiate a fair contract. Nobody wins during a strike, both sides lose. Everyone is hanging their heads right now where I'm at. Neither side (locally) wants a strike. I have some great friends on the company side of our plant, and I promise you they are as worried about a strike as I am.


----------



## rippin lips (Jan 8, 2005)

Could not have said it any better. Thank you


ctcrop said:


> Flatscat1, this post has made more sense than any of your others (at least to me), and you are correct. Here's the thing that most people don't realize (especially those that do not work as a represented employee), we don't have much/if any say in what get's negotiated. Everyone has the opportunity to make suggestions at the local levels, but even then 90% of that is never even discussed. I'm going to ramble here a little bit. For those of you that think any of us represented employees wants to strike, you are sadly mistaken. When I was looking for a job in Process Operations, I didn't apply at union represented facilities only. I applied where anybody was hiring. Just so happened I was hired in a plant that has been unionized for decades. I don't regret for one minute in taking the job as it has been great for me & my family. I give my employer more time than I give my family, and trust me, it sucks. Deal is, I don't have much choice in the matter. It's the nature of the beast. This is also where I grew up. This is where my dad got his start and continues to work (next door) along with my youngest brother. This is what we know, & this is what we are good at. Am I a die-hard union guy? No. But I believe we still have to bargain & fight for what is right. Some people think that we as operators (or anyone that works for a refinery/chem plant for that matter) are rich, or we make a lot of money. Fact is, we aren't and we don't. We are middle class (some upper middle, some lower middle, etc.). We pay a bunch in taxes, we pay a bunch for insurance. Anyway, my point is, unions/contracts/negotiations are a part of a lot of our lives. The little guy (me, my family, my friends, my coworkers) don't have as big of a choice in the matter as some like to believe. I/we don't have control of when the contracts are up & what the $/bbl of oil may be at that time. We can't control the state of the economy. We can only try to negotiate a fair contract. Nobody wins during a strike, both sides lose. Everyone is hanging their heads right now where I'm at. Neither side (locally) wants a strike. I have some great friends on the company side of our plant, and I promise you they are as worried about a strike as I am.


----------



## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

bill said:


> I was working my way to find an incentive for the companies to settle this quick.
> 
> If they are not loosing money, I'm at a loss.


This industry is set up for union labor. The companies prefer unions since the contracts state rules the workers must go by, thus allowing companies to employ much fewer supervisors. The company benefits by having the union police its own. However, the companies can make money just fine without the union. This is the first strike in 35 years, so the companies saved the cost of extra supervisors for 35 years. Multi-billion dollar plants didn't get that way being stupid. They promote hourly workers from all units to be their supervisors. Right now, those supervisors are running the units they grew up on by giving instructions to muscle which valves to turn. The supervisors will be putting in a LOT of OT to keep the place running, but the plants will run. Probably a combination of supervisors and chemical engineers are running the boards or consoles. Part of the PR ploy by the plants is to make the public think the union has the poor company bent over that oil barrel, but it just is not so. I don't think the companies will rush to stop this strike; they are NOT over that barrel.


----------



## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

Whitebassfisher said:


> This industry is set up for union labor. The companies prefer unions since the contracts state rules the workers must go by, thus allowing companies to employ much fewer supervisors. The company benefits by having the union police its own. However, the companies can make money just fine without the union. This is the first strike in 35 years, so the companies saved the cost of extra supervisors for 35 years. Multi-billion dollar plants didn't get that way being stupid. They promote hourly workers from all units to be their supervisors. Right now, those supervisors are running the units they grew up on by giving instructions to muscle which valves to turn. The supervisors will be putting in a LOT of OT to keep the place running, but the plants will run. Probably a combination of supervisors and chemical engineers are running the boards or consoles. Part of the PR ploy by the plants is to make the public think the union has the poor company bent over that oil barrel, but it just is not so. I don't think the companies will rush to stop this strike; they are NOT over that barrel.


What they'll miss the most is the top tier console operators. Most of the foremen and unit engineers can get by but they aren't the masters that the full time board people are . With exceptions of course, both ways.

What I'd imagine they'll do is back the units down to more comfortable, less edgy rates . At that point, many of the processes are quite comfortable and stable. All this gets chunked out the window by one good thunderstorm or blown transformer though.

Both sides want to get back to business I would guess. It's the upper echelons that want the fight .


----------



## BrandonH (Oct 15, 2006)

Stumpgrinder said:


> What they'll miss the most is the top tier console operators. Most of the foremen and unit engineers can get by but they aren't the masters that the full time board people are . With exceptions of course, both ways.
> 
> What I'd imagine they'll do is back the units down to more comfortable, less edgy rates . At that point, many of the processes are quite comfortable and stable. All this gets chunked out the window by one good thunderstorm or blown transformer though.
> 
> Both sides want to get back to business I would guess. It's the upper echelons that want the fight .


This is spot on. I know they're are some very experienced salary people running my unit, however the people helping them are just their little minions. As long as they're running smoothly they can go for a long time. That being said I guarantee that none of the people locked in right now are happy campers and your management could care less.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Stumpgrinder said:


> What they'll miss the most is the top tier console operators. Most of the foremen and unit engineers can get by but they aren't the masters that the full time board people are . With exceptions of course, both ways.
> 
> What I'd imagine they'll do is back the units down to more comfortable, less edgy rates . At that point, many of the processes are quite comfortable and stable. All this gets chunked out the window by one good thunderstorm or blown transformer though.
> 
> *Both sides want to get back to business I would guess. It's the upper echelons that want the fight .*


I believe your last 2 sentences to be very accurate.
I worked my way up to board, and then did just board for 11 more years. Yes, thunderstorms with their cooling affect or lightning blowing electricity can be terrible. But, a hard freeze would be really tough. _Moisture in the instrument air lines freezing is no joke._ Loosing a pump or compressor or a heater is one thing, loosing control of all at once which can happen in a hard freeze is a whole other matter. We still have the dead of winter ahead of us. When the process variables get too far out of line and the DMC kicks off and hands it back to the boardman, it will get a bit hairy, but they will survive. The units I controlled ran best at a fairly high rate; they were designed and engineered that way.

Which reminds me, there are others besides boardmen that the plants will miss. That is the instrument men and those that really know the ins and outs of the Honeywell TDC.


----------



## gater (May 25, 2004)

*Raise*



flatscat1 said:


> I totally respect your work, and your desire to better your family. I'm not knocking you at all. My point is that your Union is doing it wrong. Don't bargain for scraps from the table, bargain for a piece of the pie! Then at least public support will be on your side, which it currently is not. You ask for a raise when wages elsewhere are stagnent....healthcare improvements when others are losing theirs, wages higher than average. What the helll is a pension??
> 
> I get it that you are skilled and deserve it, but the public doesn't see that. Show your value. Ask for what the public gets already....a 401k (maybe with a match after x years service). An ESPP plan maybe? I don't know, I've never been hourly, but you have got to negotiate for long term performance, loyalty, your value over a scab, your desire to make the company better, etc. From highest to lowest pay, every employee iin our big company has some form of long term compensation carrot to strive for. Employers will listen to those proposals over demands, and the public will empathize too.
> 
> ...


----------



## Stumpgrinder (Feb 18, 2006)

gater said:


> flatscat1 said:
> 
> 
> > I totally respect your work, and your desire to better your family. I'm not knocking you at all. My point is that your Union is doing it wrong. Don't bargain for scraps from the table, bargain for a piece of the pie! Then at least public support will be on your side, which it currently is not. You ask for a raise when wages elsewhere are stagnent....healthcare improvements when others are losing theirs, wages higher than average. What the helll is a pension??
> ...


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