# leader loop question



## HillCountryBasser

I just got an 8wt Redington combo to use down at the coast, and I have a question. I've always used the braided loop connected with shrink tubing on my 6wt, but I don't think it has the power to hold up to larger saltwater fish. 

My buddy told me to nail-knot a short piece of heavy mono (30lb) to the fly line, and tie a loop at the other end to use as my leader loop. My question is, could I used a piece of heavy braid, like PowerPro (80lb), for this instead of mono? Or, would the limpness of the braid affect my casting loop?


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## Capt Mike Cook

Stiff mono will turn your leader over a lot better than limp braid.


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## dsim3240

What I do is form a loop in the fly line by doubling it back and whip finnishing it with fly tying tread (10lb braid works too). Then coat it with zap-a-gap. This makes a nice clean loop and I have never had one fail.


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## shallowist

The whipped loop method is great because you never have to cut the fly line to replace the loop, and it won't grow weak with age like the mono will. Have used that method for years, and it hasn't let me down.


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## HillCountryBasser

Thanks folks...I'd like to do the whipped loop method, but I wouldn't trust myself doing a whip finish. Even watched a couple of youtube vids on how to do it...they lose me about halfway through!


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## dsim3240

Another option is to Buy a RIO line they have the loop already installed.


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## Flycaster

I'm not experienced; I just tied my 20lb mono leader to the fly line via a uni-knot,is this not the norm and or a poor option? What is the concept behind making a loop at the end of the flyline and then tying leader to it? Wouldnt the loop prevent the end of the fly line from going thru the rod tip? 
Thanks,
FC


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## Bruce J

Having a loop at the end of the flyline just makes it easier to change leaders by looping another one on. When you say you use a uni knot for the butt section of the leader onto the fly line, is it just on the bare end of the fly line or do you tie a uni in the fly line too so there are "back to back" knots? The former may work, like a nail knot, depending on the how well it grips on the fly line. The latter would be safer, but quite bulky.


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## Flycaster

Bruce J, thanks for the info, that makes sense and sounds like an efficient method. Yes, it is just the butt section of the leader to the fly line without doing it back to back with the fly line. Now that you mention the nail knot, I remember reading that the uni was easier than the nail knot but as efficient. I believe is was in a Vic Dunnaway book put out by Fla Sportsman mag. I do focus on ensureing it grips well. Have you heard of nail knots or unis used in this matter failing? If so, maybe I'll go anohter route as I tackle failure is one of the most frustraing things.
Thanks,
FC


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## Bruce J

I've never had a nail knot fail at the fly line connection. A uni knot seems very similar to a nail knot, so I assume it could also work well. I've heard some arguments over the years that a knot like this could fail with some types of fly lines, maybe solid mono core lines, by stripping the coating off the line and sliding off. I've never had that happen or seen it happen, but I guess anything is possible. If you're not fishing for tarpon or maybe jacks, it's hard to see a situation where you'd be putting extreme pressure on the line anyway.

By the way, I'd recommend a foot or two of 40 or 50 pound leader material tied to the flyline (however done) with a perfection loop at the other end of the leader. Then you can loop a new leader onto this perfection loop whenever you need one.


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## Flycaster

BruceJ. Lot of good information. Will be fishing primarily reds/specs and bass...never caught a flounder so that sounds pretty cool too. Poons and snook will be down the road for trips home to Fla; unless there really are opportunities in Tx for them.

I like the idea of the foot or two of 40-50 pound leader with the percection loop at the end. that seems simple and serves the purpose.


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## texasflycaster

+1 for looping the other end of the leader. Then you butt section will last forever, and you can change tippet weights on a whim.


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## Flycaster

Texas FC,
Thanks, that sounds like a good idea. I do have one more question. Will the loops still go thru the rod tip? The reason I ask is that I'm still the UK fishing for pike, and they are habitual followers and many times hit the fly at the edge of the water. Case in point, my largest one too the fly with the leader knot a good 1.5-2 feet inside the tip...I felt lucky it made it back thru clean when she ran. Thanks, FC


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## HillCountryBasser

It makes for a more high-profile connection....I guess if you found that you were stripping it in to that point, you could try shortening your leader a bit?


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## Flycaster

I never thought of shortning the leader a bit, that should work. Thanks.
FC


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## eightweight

I generally avoid using braid on my fly reels, prefer dacron. Found knots can be tricky, it's more likely to bury itself in the reel, can cut into fly lines and fingers when a really big fish runs. I only use braid when I really need the extra backing. Most of my reels will hold at least 150 yds of dacron and the fly line, which is more than enough for reds, sea trout, and flounder. 

When I do use braid, I only use a loop-to-loop connection. A loop in the end of the fly line, secured with three nail knots, and a loop in the braided backing with a bimini twist, or a double bimini. The bimini is easier to tie than you might think. That's strong enough to hold a good sized ****. 

With dacron, I'll use the same loop-to-loop connection. Or just nail knot the backing to the fly line when I want to keep it clean and simple.


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## eightweight

. . . strong enough to hold a good sized tarpon.


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## THE JAMMER

My friend and co-guide, the late Chris Phillips, always tied either a double or triple nail knot to attach his butt section to the fly line. Triple if being used on a 10 weight for bigger offshore fish- double for every day. He would then tie some kind of a loop in the end of his butt section- most often 20 hard mason for every day- larger, like 40 or so for heavy duty offshore. Then loop to loop from there to his leaders.

I watched him land a 30# kingfish on a 6 weight on my boat several years ago with that rig. That works.

People sometimes get too worked up on the strength of their butts and leaders. One night in a motel room in Venice Chris and I took several of our reels, Abel 8, 10, 12-- Tibor 8, 10 etc. and we tested the drag we could put on those reels with a very accurate drag testing device. We couldn't get more than about 18# out of any of them. Interestingly enough the drag didn't get heavier with the heavier reels. The one that we got the most drag out of was an Abel 8.

In other words if you have your dragged totally buttoned down, it's going to slip before you get 18# of pull on it. So having a 40# butt is more than sufficient for offshore. For specs and reds, I doubt that anyone ever has their drag set over 5# if that, so 20# butt is perfectly sufficient.

I actually called Abel and asked them how much drag I could expect out of their various reels. The tech on the other end was dumbfounded. He had no idea. They had apparently never done it.

THE JAMMER


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## texasflycaster

I think you may get more drag with Tibor reels.


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## shallowist

Several thoughts:

A small section of 30 to 40 pound leader, nail knotted to the fly line with a loop at the front end will allow the re-usable loop connection to leader. Yes my preference is loop in the fly line, but the objective is to prevent cutting the front end of the fly line down the road. The whiped loop isn't that difficult, but you will need a vice or something to hold the line when you are doing the wrapping and whip finish. Use the same dressing to coat the knot as you would your fly wraps. Flexament or clear nail polish works great. 

Either type will flow through the tip and other guides, if tags are trimmed short, so check your knots well and trim short. This will also make your fishing day much more fun when you fish grass flats. 

Those drag numbers are impressive, 18 pounds is a huge amount of pressure to put on a fish. For inshore (reds, trout and flounder) it's doubtful that any of us fishes with more than a pound or two effectively. If you are going to fish with monster drag pressure, as in offshore fishing, make sure that some section of your tippet will break well below 30 pounds. Flies are much less expensive to replace than a fly line, and that's what you will loose if you don't have a weak link towards the front. Even the heavier fly lines break somewhere around 40 pounds, when new. With the length of time that an average fly line stays with us, I would have to believe that they grow weaker over time. Kinks and pinch points, like a knot would only make that worse.


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## CM

Here are some photos to explain the knot that I tie on ALL my fly lines. The problem with tag lines for loops to leader is that you loose your engery. This is simple and has never failed period.

The yellow rope is fly line. Start with making a small loop and wrapping dacron back towards the loop. Make about 7-8 wraps









When you get enough wraps, take the bitter end and stick it though the original loop, you can then pull the tag line and the loop goes under all the wraps and secures it.


















Then take some Clear Cure Goo Thin and apply on the wrap and zap it with the UV light. Bingo, done and looks professional and will not come apart.


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## Flycaster

Lots of good suggestions. CM, that is pretty cool looking, what does the UV light do? Been taking classes to finish up school and getting ready for retirement so not much time building butts. I did make get a fly line with a loop at the end already and made 7.5 foot furled leader and then ran 1.5 feet of a bimini twist snipped and twisted, then a 1 foot 10 lb bite tipet. Any of yoou all use furled leaders? Is it going to get more grass and stuff in it when I get to the coast here in a few months?


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## CM

The UV light cures the resin, again its called Clear Cure Goo and we use it primarly for fly tying. I am a dealer


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## Flycaster

Thanks CM, pretty cool. When Im in the market for that, ill be sure to look you up.


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## HillCountryBasser

I tried the heavy mono nail-knotted to the fly line with a perfection loop about 8" down, but it just didn't seem right when I attached a 5' sink-tip to the line. So, I went ahead and cut that off, and tied a loop into the line like the pic above. The sink-tip attaches to it perfectly and is a very low-profile connection that will still pass through the rod guides....


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## Flycaster

Nice looking rig. How do you like the Rddington Rise? Is it large or mid arbor? Seem like reely nice reels for the $.


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## HillCountryBasser

Flycaster said:


> Nice looking rig. How do you like the Rddington Rise? Is it large or mid arbor? Seem like reely nice reels for the $.


I've only fished with it once now, but so far I really really like it. Its FEATHER LIGHT...weighs next to nothing before spooling it up! It is a mid-arbor, and didn't hold as much backing as I would've thought. Said it could take 200yds of 20lb, but I only got a hair over 100yds of 30lb on it. Add 90' of fly line, and its packed pretty tight. I've been wanting to get some Royal Wulff Bermuda Triangle line, but its 100'...so I'd probably have to take a tiny bit of that backing off to do so.


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## Flycaster

I recent;ly got a Battenkill Mid Arbor and mine is packed tight with line/backing as well. have only fished mine a few times too during freezing wx where I got ice build up in the guides and had to knock it out several times. Needless to say, no fish on it yet but really like it. I have a Rddington crosswater for my first and really like it. Not surprised oyu like yours as I have read good things and they seem built really well...cord drag too if I recall. I'll need to get some warm water line when i get to TX, have read it gets sticky in warm water if not warm water line...have you used that royal wulff line before? If so how do you like it?


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## HillCountryBasser

Never used the Royal Wulff, but my buddy's dad bought some and added a good 10-20' to his casts into the wind. He said it cuts through a headwind like butter...so it'll be my next investment.


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## Boboe

You did the right thing by not using a mono butt section if you're going to be doing a loop-to-loop sink tip head. That mono section is too flexible and it screws up the way the line casts. That said, I really don't like loop-to-loop sink tips. That connection always makes them cast weird. I keep multiple spools, which aren't terribly expensive unless you've got a Nautilus or something in that price range. I keep a floating line on one spool, and a sink tip line on the other. If I need an intermediate etc, I'll get another spool. With all but a few makes of reel, the spools snap on and off very easily. 

Your nail knot with butt and perfection loop is perfect for attaching a leader to a floating line or a sink tip, but not for adding a tip.


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## Flycaster

Boboe, I see that you are in Austin. I'll be retiring (from first job) and moving from England to South Austin next month. Any general areas (not looking for your spots) you can recommend with room to fly for largemouth bass from the bank? Also are you a member of the Austin Fly Fishers? If so, how do oyu like the club.

Thanks,
FC


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## Boboe

Flycaster: Enable your PM's and we can talk without clogging the forum.


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## Tarponman

You can buy a nail knot tool from just about any flyshop and they come with easy to follow directions. And Bruce is right about learning to put loops in your fly lines. There faster and easy to deal with. I use them on 6 wts. and up. Never had one hang up in tip top. I have recently fished with some Florida guides who won't use the loop and the reason is, is that it leaves a bubble trail spooking the tarpon. They will only use a nail knots.


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## Flycaster

Will do Boboe.

Tarponman...good info...I can see that happening, as they are a very spooky fish. I remember spooking them from lure flying overhead, shadow of lure etc...


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## flyakker

I have a lot of tying to learn. My nails suck, just learned a perfection loop today at work, and tied my first blood knot. It turned out pretty good. Need to lengthen my tippet on both rods.


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