# There is only one way into heaven



## Fish&Chips

and his name is Jesus Christ.

The Alpha and Omega
Author and Finisher of our Faith
Beloved Son
Bread of Life
Chief Shepherd
Christ of God
Cornerstone
Counsellor
Creator
Deliverer
Head of the Church
I Am
Immanuel
King of Kings


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## WillieT

Jesus Christ is certainly our salvation, and carries many of the titles you speak of. It is through him that we approach and pray to God, whose name is Jehovah. The Christ name is Jesus.


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## fishin minnie

Amen!!!! The only way to the father is through his son, our lord and savior Jesus Christ!!


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## Fish&Chips

shaggydog said:


> Jesus Christ is certainly our salvation, and carries many of the titles you speak of. It is through him that we approach and pray to God, whose name is Jehovah. The Christ name is Jesus.


Amen. God The Son is worthy to be praised!


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> Amen. God and The Son is worthy to be praised!


There we go.


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## Fish&Chips

shaggydog said:


> There we go.


No, there you go. Changing things around again.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> No, there you go. Changing things around again.


You mean providing ACCURATE knowledge.


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## Fish&Chips

shaggydog said:


> You mean providing ACCURATE knowledge.


Yes, that's what the Pharisees said also.


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## Fish&Chips

*1 Corinthians 8*

Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.


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## WillieT

Jesus is speaking at John 14:28 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father (God) is greater than I (Jesus). 

This scripture makes it very clear that God and Jesus are not the same and are not equal.

Look at John 5:19 19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son (Jesus) can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father (God) do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

If you read through the gospels you find Jesus speaking to and praying to his Father many many times.

Whom was speaking to whom when Jesus was baptized? Matthew 3:17 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 

A clue, it was God speaking to His son Jesus.


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## Fish&Chips

Ok Shaggydog, thanks.


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## jimk

Amen! 
G.K. Chesterton wrote... _â€œThere are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions.â€ â€" ILN, 1/13/06_


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## WillieT

Jesus called the religious leaders of his day, hypocrites and offspring of vipers, because they did not teach the truths found in the scriptures. They did not impart accurate knowledge. Narrow is the road and few are finding it. To get through that narrow gate you must have accurate knowledge. Few are imparting that accurate knowledge, that is why few are going down that narrow road.


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## Fish&Chips

jimk said:


> Amen!
> G.K. Chesterton wrote... _â€œThere are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions.â€ â€" ILN, 1/13/06_


Amen jimk.


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## Fish&Chips

shaggydog said:


> Jesus called the religious leaders of his day, hypocrites and offspring of vipers, because they did not teach the truths found in the scriptures. They did not impart accurate knowledge. Narrow is the road and few are finding it. To get through that narrow gate you must have accurate knowledge. Few are imparting that accurate knowledge, that is why few are going down that narrow road.


That is 100% wrong brother. He called them hypocrites because they were puffed up with pride. On the outside they looked like the perfect religious leaders but on the inside they were rotten. They knew the laws & traditions but their hearts were hardened. And that is what God is looking at - our hearts. We need to allow God to change our hearts.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> That is 100% wrong brother. He called them hypocrites because they were puffed up with pride. On the outside they looked like the perfect religious leaders but on the inside they were rotten. They knew the laws & traditions but their hearts were hardened. And that is what God is looking at - our hearts. We need to allow God to change our hearts.


They were puffed up with pride, and they also WERE NOT teaching the truths of God's word. He called them offspring of vipers and that they came from their father the devil, and that is 100% correct. God does read the heart, and he know who is searching for the truth. The same thing is going on today, but many have their minds closed and their hearts hardened. That too is a fact.


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## Fish&Chips

*The Parable of the Good Samaritan*

25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, â€œTeacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?â€
26 He said to him, â€œWhat is written in the law? What is your reading _of it?_â€
27 So he answered and said, â€œ â€˜You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,â€™[h] and â€˜your neighbor as yourself.â€™â€[i]
28 And He said to him, â€œYou have answered rightly; do this and you will live.â€
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, â€œAnd who is my neighbor?â€
30 Then Jesus answered and said: â€œA certain _man_ went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded _him,_ and departed, leaving _him_ half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to _him_ and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed,[j] he took out two denarii, gave _them_ to the innkeeper, and said to him, â€˜Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.â€™ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?â€
37 And he said, â€œHe who showed mercy on him.â€
Then Jesus said to him, â€œGo and do likewise.â€


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## WillieT

Do you think eternal life, has to mean in heaven? Eternal, meaning forever. Do you think Adam and Eve were created to live forever on earth? If you agree with that, do you think His purpose has ever changed? If you do not agree with that please explain it to me. Thanks


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## Fish&Chips

shaggydog said:


> Do you think eternal life, has to mean in heaven? Eternal, meaning forever. Do you think Adam and Eve were created to live forever on earth? If you agree with that, do you think His purpose has ever changed? If you do not agree with that please explain it to me. Thanks


Eternal life = Heaven
Eternal death = Hell

There is no in between. It's one or the other. But back to my original post - Jesus Christ is the only way into heaven.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> Eternal life = Heaven
> Eternal death = Hell
> 
> There is no in between. It's one or the other. But back to my original post - Jesus Christ is the only way into heaven.


So when God told Adam and Eve that they would die if they were disobedient, does that not imply that if they were obedient they could have lived forever, on earth.

Psalms 37: 29 seems to indicate that also, or did I misinterpret that also. 29The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever. Doesn't "therein forever" mean for eternity.

Doesn't this mean there will be eternal life on the earth? It does mean that. There will be eternal life in heaven also, for the "bride class", to which a specific number is given. If your study Revelation very closely you will find this. Pray for holy spirit to give you the wisdom to understand, and I am sure you can find that Revelation is not the mystery that so many say it is. God did not give us mysteries in His word. He wants us to understand. Sometimes it is hard, and as the end gets nearer, the light gets brighter, new understandings.

And yes, those not in line for the resurrection will sleep in death for eternity. It will be in hell, the common grave of mankind, not a place of torture.

Also look a 1 John 8: 8-12 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Take some time and examine and MEDITATE on them. vs 8 "God is love", he is not capable of torture. vs 9, 10 "sent his son" spoken twice indicating a separate entity. vs 12 "no man hath seen God at any time." Many people saw Jesus when he walked the earth. At any time means "at any time", or never.

I ask you again, are you of the bride class?


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## JCIMS

May I ask, Shaggy? Why do you not consider yourself to be one of the Bride of Christ?


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> Do you think eternal life, has to mean in heaven? Eternal, meaning forever. Do you think Adam and Eve were created to live forever on earth? If you agree with that, do you think His purpose has ever changed? If you do not agree with that please explain it to me. Thanks


Adam and Eve were created to fall from the beginning so Jesus could die for our sins. Thats always been the plan from the beginning. They could have lived forever but that wasnt His plan.


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## WillieT

JCIMS said:


> May I ask, Shaggy? Why do you not consider yourself to be one of the Bride of Christ?


The bride class is made up of the 144,000 that is spoken of in Revelation. It is a specific number so it is not symbolic. It is also referred to as the little flock, "spiritual Israel" or the anointed of God. We are not all of the anointed. I am not. I have asked before on a thread what ones thought that heaven would be like, or what heaven was to them. I got very few responses and the ones I got were very vague. The bible is very clear what awaits those that have that "heavenly calling." The bible also speaks of a great crowd, which I have spoken of before. I got no responses to that also.

There are two distinct classes spoken of in the bible, the great crowd and the little flock. They both are devoted to God and his son Jesus, but they do not have the same calling. They both respond to his voice. Their reward for obedience to the end is different.


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## WillieT

grassman said:


> Adam and Eve were created to fall from the beginning so Jesus could die for our sins. Thats always been the plan from the beginning. They could have lived forever but that wasnt His plan.


That's as wrong as it gets. They were created with free will and were deceived, or at least Eve was. Adam must have subscribed to the saying "if mama ain't happy, ain;t nobody happy. That is too bad for all of us. We are still paying. If I believed God set them up, I would renounce that I am a Christian. What you say is ridiculous.


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> That's as wrong as it gets. They were created with free will and were deceived, or at least Eve was. Adam must have subscribed to the saying "if mama ain't happy, ain;t nobody happy. That is too bad for all of us. We are still paying. If I believed God set them up, I would renounce that I am a Christian. What you say is ridiculous.


Everything in the bible points directly to Jesus being sacrificed for us. This was always the plan so God could show us how much we are loved. To think for a minute that God didnt know from the beginning how everything was going to go down is foolish.


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## WillieT

grassman said:


> Everything in the bible points directly to Jesus being sacrificed for us. This was always the plan so God could show us how much we are loved. To think for a minute that God didnt know from the beginning how everything was going to go down is foolish.


Do you consider yourself a Christian?


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> Do you consider yourself a Christian?


Of course...


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## WillieT

grassman said:


> Of course...


And you question the inspired word of God? I would think what you wrote would border on blasphemy. Believe what you want, but I don't think I will question His inspired word. I would like to know , from the bible, what indicates that from you. Or is it just your opinion.


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## JCIMS

Oh come now, Shaggy. Why as a proclaimed Christian, would you question another Christians interpretation of Doctrine to the extent of calling his words "blasphemous"? We all can see you are a highly educated proclaimer of The Word. Maybe if you spoke to others with more love in your heart and less conviction of other Christians, you may be more successful in getting your "opinion" across!!


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## WillieT

What he said is not interpretation. It is questioning the inspired word of God. As a Christian I feel it is my duty to warn someone when what they say is bordering on blasphemy. I try not to insert my opinion too often, because my opinion means nothing. I try to impart accurate knowledge from the word of God. I was not trying to offend or judge, but point out something that I think is a large mistake. God indicated that Adam and Eve were created with living forever in view. I would never question that that was his original purpose.


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## atcfisherman

This is why I have quit replying here. Too much arguing. And when one says they see it this way, another says they are wrong and says it's this way. The bible is correct, God is trustworthy, but man has come up with doctrines that differ. 

Why not say, "I think the scriptures are saying this because of these scriptures" and then a reply could be, "I see where you are coming from, but I thank it says this because of these scriptures and reasons." "Hey, that's a good point, but what about this?" ETC...ETC

Just so tired of the arguing. Leaving again. 


In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


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## WillieT

atcfisherman said:


> This is why I have quit replying here. Too much arguing. And when one says they see it this way, another says they are wrong and says it's this way. The bible is correct, God is trustworthy, but man has come up with doctrines that differ.
> 
> Why not say, "I think the scriptures are saying this because of these scriptures" and then a reply could be, "I see where you are coming from, but I thank it says this because of these scriptures and reasons." "Hey, that's a good point, but what about this?" ETC...ETC
> 
> Just so tired of the arguing. Leaving again.
> 
> In Christ Alone I Place My Trust


You are correct. I should not be debating. The scriptures for the most part are clear. Too many time I take the bait for an argument. It is something I need to work on.


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> And you question the inspired word of God? I would think what you wrote would border on blasphemy. Believe what you want, but I don't think I will question His inspired word. I would like to know , from the bible, what indicates that from you. Or is it just your opinion.


If in Ephesians it says we were saved by Jesus before the foundation of the world, how could God not have known that Adam and Eve were going to fall.
What were we saved from before the world existed.

Also, I just dont understand how we can put "handcuffs" on God's knowledge. I believe God knows everything at all times and there is no limit to His knowledge or ability. So the idea that He knew about the fall of man isnt far fetched at all. Thats what child like faith looks like. Its not all academic.


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## JCIMS

Some trees have never met their Forrest.


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## WillieT

JCIMS said:


> Some trees have never met their Forrest.


Some people cannot see because they are blind. Not meaning they do not have vision.


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## WillieT

grassman said:


> If in Ephesians it says we were saved by Jesus before the foundation of the world, how could God not have known that Adam and Eve were going to fall.
> What were we saved from before the world existed.
> 
> Also, I just dont understand how we can put "handcuffs" on God's knowledge. I believe God knows everything at all times and there is no limit to His knowledge or ability. So the idea that He knew about the fall of man isnt far fetched at all. Thats what child like faith looks like. Its not all academic.


Do you think everything is "predetermined". I do not believe that. God gave man free will, he makes his own choices, just as Adam did. I really do not know what scripture you are referring to. If you will tell me the exact scripture, I will research it. I have never had this come up, except by those that believe in predestination.

Knowledge of the scriptures is one thing. Accurate knowledge is what we need to look for. 
That is one reason I would like to see the scripture base your belief on.


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## Fish&Chips

grassman said:


> If in Ephesians it says we were saved by Jesus before the foundation of the world, how could God not have known that Adam and Eve were going to fall.
> What were we saved from before the world existed.
> 
> Also, I just dont understand how we can put "handcuffs" on God's knowledge. I believe God knows everything at all times and there is no limit to His knowledge or ability. So the idea that He knew about the fall of man isnt far fetched at all. Thats what child like faith looks like. Its not all academic.


Exactly grassman. God knows everything and is not limited like we are. And his will is going to be accomplished, and He will be glorified. Does that mean that he violates our free willl? No. We are still free to choose as we want. We still have free will. And the choices we make will somehow accomplish God's will/purpose. He is soverign and he is Lord. He is always in control and we always have free will. Glory to God.


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> Do you think everything is "predetermined". I do not believe that. God gave man free will, he makes his own choices, just as Adam did. I really do not know what scripture you are referring to. If you will tell me the exact scripture, I will research it. I have never had this come up, except by those that believe in predestination.
> 
> Knowledge of the scriptures is one thing. Accurate knowledge is what we need to look for.
> That is one reason I would like to see the scripture base your belief on.


Ephesians 1:4-

Says we were chosen and redeemed through His blood before the foundation of the world...Of course this is a paraphrased. I dont want to make this a predestination argument so I will not paste the whole verse to keep everyone honest on actually finding and reading the verse...

We think on such a simple level compared to God that even with our freewill He already knows what we are going to do. My dog has freewill but I know if a ball starts to roll He is going to chase it. He has free will to stay but I know what he is going to do before he even does it.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> Exactly grassman. God knows everything and is not limited like we are. And his will is going to be accomplished, and He will be glorified. Does that mean that he violates our free willl? No. We are still free to choose as we want. We still have free will. And the choices we make will somehow accomplish God's will/purpose. He is soverign and he is Lord. He is always in control and we always have free will. Glory to God.


So, you believe in predestination. Do you believe that God knew Adam would disobey? Would one of you please direct me to the scripture/scriptures that indicate that God knew His original purpose would not happen.

Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive. You cannot have both, one or the other.


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> So, you believe in predestination. Do you believe that God knew Adam would disobey? Would one of you please direct me to the scripture/scriptures that indicate that God knew His original purpose would not happen.


Shaggy-Sometimes you just have to understand who God is. He is GOD, He knows everything always. I mean, He created the world. Of course He knew Adam was going to disobey. Dont you think for a minute that God had some great idea that He really wanted to happen and then He let adam screw it up. Of course not. This is God's creation. He is in charge. We are idiots if we think we can outsmart God or pull a fast one on Him.

His will is going to be done. He knew Adam was going to do what He did. Thats why it says we were saved before the world began because this is all part of His plan.


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## JCIMS

Right on Grassman! God is in charge. His will be done.
Amen.


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## WillieT

grassman said:


> Shaggy-Sometimes you just have to understand who God is. He is GOD, He knows everything always. I mean, He created the world. Of course He knew Adam was going to disobey. Dont you think for a minute that God had some great idea that He really wanted to happen and then He let adam screw it up. Of course not. This is God's creation. He is in charge. We are idiots if we think we can outsmart God or pull a fast one on Him.
> 
> His will is going to be done. He knew Adam was going to do what He did. Thats why it says we were saved before the world began because this is all part of His plan.


So just take your word for it? Agree or not, I always use scriptures to support my views. This is a religious forum, views should be supported with scripture. Do you follow Calvin's teachings? Please cite some scriptures to support your views. Your and my opinion mean nothing. God's word is where we need to look. You are not providing God's view on the subject.


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## Fish&Chips

Shaggy, so you believe that God doesn't know everything?


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> Shaggy, so you believe that God doesn't know everything?


When you answer some of my questions, i will certainly answer yours. Please include scriptural insight with your answers.


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## JCIMS

Put away your sword, Peter...


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## JCIMS

Just kidding, my Brother!


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## Fish&Chips

shaggydog said:


> So, you believe in predestination. Do you believe that God knew Adam would disobey? Would one of you please direct me to the scripture/scriptures that indicate that God knew His original purpose would not happen.


Yes i believe God knew Adam would disobey. There is no scripture that says God didn't know.



shaggydog said:


> Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive. You cannot have both, one or the other.


Not necessarily my friend. In our little minds they might be exclusive, but God is not like us. We need to stop looking at God as if he were like us. Like grassman said, you have to remember that GOD is GOD. His powers and abilities have no limit.


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## Fish&Chips

Shaggy, so now that I've answered some of your questions. Please let us know if you believe that God doesn't know everything.

And I'm not trying to attack you. Just simply sharing and trying to understand your views/beliefs.


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## WillieT

There are times when I question thoughts on what people post. When I do that I always try to refer to scriptures to show why I think as I do. I am challenged quite often on what I post even though I support those views with scripture. I start threads, with scriptures that are challenged, but I am not provided with scriptural evidence to support the challenges. Tell me what scriptures show that I am not correct and I will be glad to read them, research them, and provide an answer based on the scriptures. The question on the bride class comes to mind. No one seems to agree, but no one can tell me why they disagree or scriptures to show differently. To phrase my question differently, who are the 144,000 that are spoken of to rule with Christ Jesus? What are their responsibilities going to be? If you don't know it's OK. There are many things that may be hard to understand.

Remember the account of the Ethiopian eunuch that asked Phillip to explain the scriptures to him, because he could read them, but not really understand them. You can find this account at Acts 8:26-40.

I do not mind answering questions about the scriptures, I would love to see everyone come to the accurate understanding of God's word. It is hard for me to understand that when I ask someone why the think the way they do, what scriptures make them think what they think, I get no response.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> Yes i believe God knew Adam would disobey. There is no scripture that says God didn't know.
> 
> Not necessarily my friend. In our little minds they might be exclusive, but God is not like us. We need to stop looking at God as if he were like us. Like grassman said, you have to remember that GOD is GOD. His powers and abilities have no limit.


Show me the scripture that shows God did know that he would disobey. God gave him free will for a reason.

And yes, necessarily, predestination and free will are mutually exclusive.

Here is a little research I did on predestination. Does this sound christian to you?

Among the pagan peoples of ancient times, including the Greeks and Romans, oneâ€™s fate, particularly the length of the individualâ€™s life, was often considered to be determined beforehand for all individuals by the gods. Grecian mythology represented the control of menâ€™s destiny by three goddesses: Clotho (spinner), who spun the thread of life; Lachesis (disposer of lots), who determined the length of life; and Atropos (inflexible), who cut life off when the time expired. A similar triad was found among the Roman deities.
According to Jewish historian Josephus (first centuryÂ C.E.), the Pharisees endeavored to harmonize the idea of fate with their belief in God and with the free moral agency granted to man. (The Jewish War, II, 162, 163 [viii, 14]; Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 13,Â 14 [i, 3]) The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says: â€œPrevious to Augustine [of the fourth and fifth centuriesÂ C.E.] there was no serious development in Christianity of a theory of predestination.â€ Before Augustine, earlier so-called â€œChurch Fathersâ€ such as Justin, Origen, and Irenaeus â€œknow nothing of unconditional predestination; they teach free will.â€ (Hastingsâ€™ Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, 1919, Vol. X, p. 231) In their refutation of Gnosticism, they are described as regularly expressing their belief in the free moral agency of man as â€œthe distinguishing characteristic of human personality, the basis of moral responsibility, a divine gift whereby man might choose that which was well-pleasing to God,â€ and as speaking of â€œthe autonomy of man and the counsel of God who constraineth not.â€â€"The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, edited by S.Â Jackson, 1957, Vol. IX, pp. 192, 193.

In the wake of the Reformation, individual cities and states declared their allegiance to Catholicism, Lutheranism, or Calvinism, making Europe a hotbed of religious disunity. Although the Reformers were united in their criticism of the Catholic Church, they were at odds with one another. Dr.Â Witt, quoted earlier, notes: â€œTheological disagreements developed even within the Protestant camp.â€ Although all acknowledged that the Bible should be the basis of Christian faith, there was considerable disagreement in their teachings. The immediate issue was the meaning of the Last Supper and of Christâ€™s presence. In time, Calvinism developed one of its most controversial doctrines: predestination.
There was much debate on the definition of predestination. One group of Calvinists claimed that before humans sinned, God had decided that a chosen few were to be led to salvation through Christ, whereas all others were to be abandoned to their fate. This group, therefore, believed that salvation was the decree of God and that men were not all equal. Other Calvinists thought that salvation was open to all humankind, and it was a matter of individual choice whether to accept it or not. This meant that salvation depended upon manâ€™s free will. Until long after Calvinâ€™s death, Calvinism struggled with such topics as Godâ€™s decree, manâ€™s free will, and the equality of opportunity among humankind.

The beliefs of Calvin sound very close to what you say you believe. I would be very careful about spreading those thoughts.


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## grassman

Scripture support

*Psalm 147:5*

5 Great _is_ our Lord, and mighty in power;
His understanding _is_ infinite.

If God didnt know His understanding would be limited.


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## WillieT

grassman said:


> Scripture support
> 
> *Psalm 147:5*
> 
> 5 Great _is_ our Lord, and mighty in power;
> His understanding _is_ infinite.
> 
> If God didnt know His understanding would be limited.


I agree 100%. That still does not address the question that he predetermined the fact that Adam would not obey. He gave Adam the free will to decide if he would obey or not. Do you have free will? Can you choose to go fishing or go to church next Sunday? Adam had that same free will. If you believe that his choice was predetermined, then we must agree with Calvin and his beliefs. I do not think he was correct.


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## grassman

You can have free will and God still know what is going to happen. Just because I can make my own decisions doesn't mean God doesn't know what I am going to do.

If God knew me in the womb wouldn't be also know me now. 

Don't give so much credit to the creation. Focus the credit on the creator


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## JCIMS

Infinite wisdom does not equate to predestination.


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## Fish&Chips

Predestination simply means that God can decree beforehand anything to happen, and it will happen because He has the power and authority to make it happen. Again, Jesus said, *â€œI say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.â€* (Isaiah 46:10,11) Predestination is a function of Godâ€™s omnipotence and foreknowledge is a function of Godâ€™s omniscience. Foreknowledge simply means God knows everything. He knows what our choices will be â€" not because He makes them happen, but because He knows what we will choose to do. Everything that happens is not, I repeat, _is not_ predestined by God. God did not predestine the rise of sin. Therefore, we should not interpret every event in life as a predestined event. God did not predestine Adam and Eve to sin, but He knew they would sin. In the same way the Father knows who will choose or forfeit eternal life.


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## WillieT

My focus is where it needs to be, studying the bible, coming to a accurate knowledge, trying to aline my life with God's will as much as an imperfect human can, and do my best to impart accurate knowledge to others that I come in contact with. I do all I can to help others to become disciples. If my focus is wrong, please let me know how I can do better.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> Predestination simply means that God can decree beforehand anything to happen, and it will happen because He has the power and authority to make it happen. Again, Jesus said, *â€œI say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.â€* (Isaiah 46:10,11) Predestination is a function of Godâ€™s omnipotence and foreknowledge is a function of Godâ€™s omniscience. Foreknowledge simply means God knows everything. He knows what our choices will be â€" not because He makes them happen, but because He knows what we will choose to do. Everything that happens is not, I repeat, _is not_ predestined by God. God did not predestine the rise of sin. Therefore, we should not interpret every event in life as a predestined event. God did not predestine Adam and Eve to sin, but He knew they would sin. In the same way the Father knows who will choose or forfeit eternal life.


All things are possible with God. I will agree that He does have foreknowledge, but that does not mean that he preordained His original purpose to failure. That does not make sense.

The question then arises: Is his exercise of foreknowledge infinite, without limit? Does he foresee and foreknow all future actions of all his creatures, spirit and human? And does he foreordain such actions or even predestinate what shall be the final destiny of all his creatures, even doing so before they have come into existence?
Or, is Godâ€™s exercise of foreknowledge selective and discretionary, so that whatever he chooses to foresee and foreknow, he does, but what he does not choose to foresee or foreknow, he does not? And, instead of preceding their existence, does Godâ€™s determination of his creaturesâ€™ eternal destiny await his judgment of their course of life and of their proved attitude under test? The answers to these questions must necessarily come from the Scriptures themselves and the information they provide concerning Godâ€™s actions and dealings with his creatures, including what has been revealed through his Son, Christ Jesus.â€"1Co 2:16.

The view that Godâ€™s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals is known as predestinarianism. Its advocates reason that Godâ€™s divinity and perfection require that he be omniscient (all-knowing), not only respecting the past and present but also regarding the future. According to this concept, for him not to foreknow all matters in their minutest detail would evidence imperfection. Examples such as the case of Isaacâ€™s twin sons, Esau and Jacob, are presented as evidence of Godâ€™s foreordaining creatures before their birth (Ro 9:10-13); and texts such as Ephesians 1:4,Â 5 are cited as evidence that God foreknew and foreordained the future of all his creatures even before the start of creation.
To be correct, this view would, of course, have to harmonize with all the factors previously mentioned, including the Scriptural presentation of Godâ€™s qualities, standards, and purposes, as well as his righteous ways in dealing with his creatures. (Re 15:3,Â 4) We may properly consider, then, the implications of such a predestinarian view.
This concept would mean that, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons, the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden (Ge 3:1-6; Joh 8:44), and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day. This would necessarily mean that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creationâ€™s beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all of its minutest details.
If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since manâ€™s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: â€œLet us make man.â€ (Ge 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from Godâ€™s heavenly presence but are â€œearthly, animal, demonicâ€ in source.â€"Jas 3:14-18.

Selective exercise of foreknowledge. The alternative to predestinarianism, the selective or discretionary exercise of Godâ€™s powers of foreknowledge, would have to harmonize with Godâ€™s own righteous standards and be consistent with what he reveals of himself in his Word. In contrast with the theory of predestinarianism, a number of texts point to an examination by God of a situation then current and a decision made on the basis of such examination.

Selective foreknowledge means that God could choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures. This would mean that, rather than all history from creation onward being a mere rerun of what had already been foreseen and foreordained, God could with all sincerity set before the first human pair the prospect of everlasting life in an earth free from wickedness. His instructions to his first human son and daughter to act as his perfect and sinless agents in filling the earth with their offspring and making it a paradise, as well as exercising control over the animal creation, could thus be expressed as the grant of a truly loving privilege and as his genuine desire toward themâ€"not merely as the giving of a commission that, on their part, was foredoomed to failure. Godâ€™s arranging for a test by means of â€œthe tree of the knowledge of good and badâ€ and his creation of â€œthe tree of lifeâ€ in the garden of Eden also would not be meaningless or cynical acts, made so by his foreknowing that the human pair would sin and never be able to eat of â€œthe tree of life.â€â€"Ge 1:28; 2:7-9, 15-17; 3:22-24.

PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH

To offer something very desirable to another person on conditions known beforehand to be unreachable is recognized as both hypocritical and cruel. The prospect of everlasting life is presented in Godâ€™s Word as a goal for all persons, one possible to attain. After urging his listeners to â€˜keep on asking and seekingâ€™ good things from God, Jesus pointed out that a father does not give a stone or a serpent to his child that asks for bread or a fish. Showing his Fatherâ€™s view of disappointing the legitimate hopes of a person, Jesus then said: â€œTherefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?â€â€"Mt 7:7-11.

Do you think God is capable of Hypocrisy? Do you think God is cruel?

This could go on, but I will close it here. He did not offer Adam and Eve the opportunity to live forever, while knowing it would never happen. That would not be the God I know.


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## grassman

shaggydog said:


> All things are possible with God. I will agree that He does have foreknowledge, but that does not mean that he preordained His original purpose to failure. That does not make sense.
> 
> The question then arises: Is his exercise of foreknowledge infinite, without limit? Does he foresee and foreknow all future actions of all his creatures, spirit and human? And does he foreordain such actions or even predestinate what shall be the final destiny of all his creatures, even doing so before they have come into existence?
> Or, is Godâ€™s exercise of foreknowledge selective and discretionary, so that whatever he chooses to foresee and foreknow, he does, but what he does not choose to foresee or foreknow, he does not? And, instead of preceding their existence, does Godâ€™s determination of his creaturesâ€™ eternal destiny await his judgment of their course of life and of their proved attitude under test? The answers to these questions must necessarily come from the Scriptures themselves and the information they provide concerning Godâ€™s actions and dealings with his creatures, including what has been revealed through his Son, Christ Jesus.â€"1Co 2:16.
> 
> The view that Godâ€™s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals is known as predestinarianism. Its advocates reason that Godâ€™s divinity and perfection require that he be omniscient (all-knowing), not only respecting the past and present but also regarding the future. According to this concept, for him not to foreknow all matters in their minutest detail would evidence imperfection. Examples such as the case of Isaacâ€™s twin sons, Esau and Jacob, are presented as evidence of Godâ€™s foreordaining creatures before their birth (Ro 9:10-13); and texts such as Ephesians 1:4, 5 are cited as evidence that God foreknew and foreordained the future of all his creatures even before the start of creation.
> To be correct, this view would, of course, have to harmonize with all the factors previously mentioned, including the Scriptural presentation of Godâ€™s qualities, standards, and purposes, as well as his righteous ways in dealing with his creatures. (Re 15:3, 4) We may properly consider, then, the implications of such a predestinarian view.
> This concept would mean that, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons, the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden (Ge 3:1-6; Joh 8:44), and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day. This would necessarily mean that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creationâ€™s beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all of its minutest details.
> If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since manâ€™s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: â€œLet us make man.â€ (Ge 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from Godâ€™s heavenly presence but are â€œearthly, animal, demonicâ€ in source.â€"Jas 3:14-18.
> 
> Selective exercise of foreknowledge. The alternative to predestinarianism, the selective or discretionary exercise of Godâ€™s powers of foreknowledge, would have to harmonize with Godâ€™s own righteous standards and be consistent with what he reveals of himself in his Word. In contrast with the theory of predestinarianism, a number of texts point to an examination by God of a situation then current and a decision made on the basis of such examination.
> 
> Selective foreknowledge means that God could choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures. This would mean that, rather than all history from creation onward being a mere rerun of what had already been foreseen and foreordained, God could with all sincerity set before the first human pair the prospect of everlasting life in an earth free from wickedness. His instructions to his first human son and daughter to act as his perfect and sinless agents in filling the earth with their offspring and making it a paradise, as well as exercising control over the animal creation, could thus be expressed as the grant of a truly loving privilege and as his genuine desire toward themâ€"not merely as the giving of a commission that, on their part, was foredoomed to failure. Godâ€™s arranging for a test by means of â€œthe tree of the knowledge of good and badâ€ and his creation of â€œthe tree of lifeâ€ in the garden of Eden also would not be meaningless or cynical acts, made so by his foreknowing that the human pair would sin and never be able to eat of â€œthe tree of life.â€â€"Ge 1:28; 2:7-9, 15-17; 3:22-24.
> 
> PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH
> 
> To offer something very desirable to another person on conditions known beforehand to be unreachable is recognized as both hypocritical and cruel. The prospect of everlasting life is presented in Godâ€™s Word as a goal for all persons, one possible to attain. After urging his listeners to â€˜keep on asking and seekingâ€™ good things from God, Jesus pointed out that a father does not give a stone or a serpent to his child that asks for bread or a fish. Showing his Fatherâ€™s view of disappointing the legitimate hopes of a person, Jesus then said: â€œTherefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?â€â€"Mt 7:7-11.
> 
> Do you think God is capable of Hypocrisy? Do you think God is cruel?
> 
> This could go on, but I will close it here. He did not offer Adam and Eve the opportunity to live forever, while knowing it would never happen. That would not be the God I know.


Correct me if I am wrong but God never offered them eternal flesh life. Adam and Eve do have eternal life because they were saved by Christ before they were even created. Their flesh life may have ended soon but eternal they do live.
Dont be so quick to try and back someone in a corner. Take a step back and allow God to soften your heart.


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## TrueblueTexican

*Interesting debate*

So God created his heavenly host, angels, seraphim, cherubim, winged horses, and likely creatures never described -

This all begs the question, was Lucifers fall pre-destined so he would tempt man? - Man made in Gods image? We are in fact ABOVE Gods heavenly host -
Lucifer's fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power behind those kings, namely, Lucifer. These passages describe why Lucifer fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7). Lucifer fell *before* he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Lucifer as a created being tried to put himself above God, therefore, Lucifers fall must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether 
Lucifers fall occurred a few minutes, hours, days or millennia before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not specifically say.

The book of Job tells us that, for a time at least, Lucifer still had access to heaven and to the throne of God. â€œOne day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Lucifer also came with them. The LORD said to Lucifer, â€™Where have you come from?â€™ Satan answered God, â€˜From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in itâ€™â€ (Job 1:6-7). Apparently at that time, Satan was still moving freely between heaven and earth, speaking to God directly and answering for his activities. At what point God discontinued this access is unknown.

Why was Lucifer banished from Gods Throne? Because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many â€œI will...â€ statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Lucifer as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Lucifer was likely the chief angel, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Lucifer desired to be God, to essentially â€œkick God off His throneâ€ and take over the rule of Creation. Lucifer wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve *with* in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). Did Lucifer fall from heaven? Actually, it would be far more accurate to say God cast Lucifer out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17). Lucifer did not fall from heaven; rather God banned him and ALLOWED him a domain. Lucifer now known as Satan is also called the "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. He is the "ruler of this world" in John 12:31. These titles and many more signify Satanâ€™s capabilities. To say, for example, that Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" is to signify that in some way he rules over the world and the people in it.

Followers of Christ already won the victory over Lucifer.

God created Adam and Eve, he breathed consciousness into them, wonderfully constructed these bodies, at that time without blemish or sickness. They neither worked or labored. GOD walked with them in HIS garden. A banished heavenly being told Eve, she surely would not die from eating from the tree of knowledge, and she took a bite and gave to Adam.

Instant knowledge, instant loss of innocence, Adam clothed his nakedness and tried to hide from God.

Why would GOD create such rebellious beings including man? You have to ask yourself that question - without a doubt in my mind God knows outcomes before they happen, yet set a course for all his creation. God destroyed it all once, yet let live chosen animals and man. In Noah's time giants roamed the land, offspring of fallen angels.

Its a conundrum only God may choose to answer when we see him -- he knows when the sparrow falls, the number of hairs on our head and the grains of sand on this ball -

Our puny fallen minds just can't comprehend his purpose or design, we have insights in his word - but more than that he gave us freewill and a measure of faith (less than a grain of mustard seed)

With that free will we make a CHOICE to believe or no - but God already knows who will be with or against him, just as he knew Lucifer would fall.


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## WillieT

grassman said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but God never offered them eternal flesh life. Adam and Eve do have eternal life because they were saved by Christ before they were even created. Their flesh life may have ended soon but eternal they do live.
> Dont be so quick to try and back someone in a corner. Take a step back and allow God to soften your heart.


They were offered the opportunity to live forever on earth. They would have done so if they had not disobeyed. Read my previous post.


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## WillieT

TrueblueTexican said:


> So God created his heavenly host, angels, seraphim, cherubim, winged horses, and likely creatures never described -
> 
> This all begs the question, was Lucifers fall pre-destined so he would tempt man? - Man made in Gods image? We are in fact ABOVE Gods heavenly host -
> Lucifer's fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power behind those kings, namely, Lucifer. These passages describe why Lucifer fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7). Lucifer fell *before* he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Lucifer as a created being tried to put himself above God, therefore, Lucifers fall must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether
> Lucifers fall occurred a few minutes, hours, days or millennia before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not specifically say.
> 
> The book of Job tells us that, for a time at least, Lucifer still had access to heaven and to the throne of God. â€œOne day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Lucifer also came with them. The LORD said to Lucifer, â€™Where have you come from?â€™ Satan answered God, â€˜From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in itâ€™â€ (Job 1:6-7). Apparently at that time, Satan was still moving freely between heaven and earth, speaking to God directly and answering for his activities. At what point God discontinued this access is unknown.
> 
> Why was Lucifer banished from Gods Throne? Because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many â€œI will...â€ statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Lucifer as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Lucifer was likely the chief angel, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Lucifer desired to be God, to essentially â€œkick God off His throneâ€ and take over the rule of Creation. Lucifer wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve *with* in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). Did Lucifer fall from heaven? Actually, it would be far more accurate to say God cast Lucifer out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17). Lucifer did not fall from heaven; rather God banned him and ALLOWED him a domain. Lucifer now known as Satan is also called the "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. He is the "ruler of this world" in John 12:31. These titles and many more signify Satanâ€™s capabilities. To say, for example, that Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" is to signify that in some way he rules over the world and the people in it.
> 
> Followers of Christ already won the victory over Lucifer.
> 
> God created Adam and Eve, he breathed consciousness into them, wonderfully constructed these bodies, at that time without blemish or sickness. They neither worked or labored. GOD walked with them in HIS garden. A banished heavenly being told Eve, she surely would not die from eating from the tree of knowledge, and she took a bite and gave to Adam.
> 
> Instant knowledge, instant loss of innocence, Adam clothed his nakedness and tried to hide from God.
> 
> Why would GOD create such rebellious beings including man? You have to ask yourself that question - without a doubt in my mind God knows outcomes before they happen, yet set a course for all his creation. God destroyed it all once, yet let live chosen animals and man. In Noah's time giants roamed the land, offspring of fallen angels.
> 
> Its a conundrum only God may choose to answer when we see him -- he knows when the sparrow falls, the number of hairs on our head and the grains of sand on this ball -
> 
> Our puny fallen minds just can't comprehend his purpose or design, we have insights in his word - but more than that he gave us freewill and a measure of faith (less than a grain of mustard seed)
> 
> With that free will we make a CHOICE to believe or no - but God already knows who will be with or against him, just as he knew Lucifer would fall.


There is nothing predestined in the bible. God's intelligent creation were all given freedom of choice. Again read my previous point on this subject. Also, we will never see God, says so in the scriptures. When Satan deceived Eve he had not been cast out of heaven. He had freedom to go wherever he pleased.

He is the ruler of this system of things right now. He will be in control until Armageddon. At that time he will be abyssed, along with his demon followers for a thousand years, then he will be set free "for a short while."

He has now been cast out of heaven and that is why things have gone from bad to worse, and will continue to get worse, until the question that was raised in the garden is answered. Does God have the right to be soverign ruler. That was the question that Satan raised. The reason things have gotten so bad is answered at Revelation 12:7-9 And war broke out in heaven: Miâ€²chaÂ·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8â€¯but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9â€¯So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

Followers of Christ have not already won the victory. Matthew 10:22 And YOU will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.

To be saved you must have accurate knowledge, bring your life into harmony with God's will, and remain faithful to the end. Matthew 10:22 is backed up at Zephaniah 2:3

Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

There are requirements to be saved.


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## finkikin

Man, this part of 2cool has gone down hill. Just like said before, every time I come down here all I see is "I'm right, your wrong". Getting pretty typical around here don't you think. None of ya'll are bringing anyone closer to their maker! I'll refer ya'll back to my "This is becoming BS" post a while back...


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## Fish&Chips

finkikin said:


> Man, this part of 2cool has gone down hill. Just like said before, every time I come down here all I see is "I'm right, your wrong". Getting pretty typical around here don't you think. None of ya'll are bringing anyone closer to their maker! I'll refer ya'll back to my "This is becoming BS" post a while back...


finkikin this was just a discussion and we are all trying to understand and learn more about the scriptures. Yes, it might get a little loud sometimes, but we aren't perfect. Even the disciples argued and Jesus was right in their midst (physically). And if that's all you see when you come down here, then you are not looking at the other thousands of posts that have no discussion in them. Only God knows if anybody has been blessed by our posts down here. How can anybody say that we aren't bringing anybody closer to their maker? And I know that when you are a Christian, you will be scrutinized even more, so your post comes as no surprise. Have a good day brother and may the Lord bless you.


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## WillieT

Fish&Chips said:


> finkikin this was just a discussion and we are all trying to understand and learn more about the scriptures. Yes, it might get a little loud sometimes, but we aren't perfect. Even the disciples argued and Jesus was right in their midst (physically). And if that's all you see when you come down here, then you are not looking at the other thousands of posts that have no discussion in them. Only God knows if anybody has been blessed by our posts down here. How can anybody say that we aren't bringing anybody closer to their maker? And I know that when you are a Christian, you will be scrutinized even more, so your post comes as no surprise. Have a good day brother and may the Lord bless you.


Well thought out reply.


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## JCIMS

Ever been to the Jungle?


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## Fish&Chips

JCIMS said:


> Ever been to the Jungle?


Not lately....Well, it's been a while.
I sure miss that place.


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## JCIMS

It's still like cotton candy. Fun to eat, but no substance.


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## Fish&Chips

JCIMS said:


> It's still like cotton candy. Fun to eat, but no substance.


LOL. They can't handle the Truth.


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