# 9mm or 40cal



## Bayoutalker

I was set to order an FNS 9c but now I'm having second thoughts. Should I go with the 40c instead? What got me thinking was that I already have a Taurus 40 and that would keep the ammo consistent. I keep hearing that the 40 is a dying caliber but it seems there are a lot of folks still buying them. 

Which caliber would you buy and why?

Cliff


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## Brute

.40 Better suited for defense or in hunting applications

I'm debating between an XD .40 or M&P .40 right now.


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## Jungle_Jim

I like 9mm for several reasons. 

1: it is no less deadly than 40.
2: It is much cheaper so you get more practice per dollar
3: It is easier on the guns, so your gun lasts longer.
4: 9mm has less recoil so follow up shots are faster and more accurate.
5: nearly all the famous instructors and people who have been in gun fights like it better
6: Same size gun holds more ammo with less weight


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## Jungle_Jim

Brute said:


> .*40 Better suited for defense* or in hunting applications
> 
> I'm debating between an XD .40 or M&P .40 right now.


That is not correct.


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## Jungle_Jim

This is a good read on the subject, written by a recognized expert in the field.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/defensive-carry-caliber-and-incapacitation/


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## Bayoutalker

Jungle_Jim said:


> I like 9mm for several reasons.
> 
> 1: it is no less deadly than 40.
> 2: It is much cheaper so you get more practice per dollar
> 3: It is easier on the guns, so your gun lasts longer.
> 4: 9mm has less recoil so follow up shots are faster and more accurate.
> 5: nearly all the famous instructors and people who have been in gun fights like it better
> 6: Same size gun holds more ammo with less weight


Most of these are the reasons I started looking at the 9mm.

As for cheaper, I guess that depends where you get your ammo. I haven't seen much difference. The difference I have seen is between the 9 and the 380 that my wife is looking at. I don't know why that stuff is so expensive.

The recoil is not a major factor to me as I also shoot a 45 so I am used to it.

If I didn't already have a 40 I wouldn't be asking this question. I would go with the 9mm but I was thinking it would be nice to use the same ammo in 2 pistols. Of course if there is a solid reason to go with the 9 the ammo would not be a deciding factor.

Thank you for your input.

Cliff


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## Bayoutalker

Brute said:


> .40 Better suited for defense or in hunting applications
> 
> I'm debating between an XD .40 or M&P .40 right now.


I had settled on the M&P Shield but I changed my mind when I looked at the FNH FNS 9c. I am looking at the compact for a carry gun and the FNS has quite a bit more capacity.

Cliff


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## wpeschel

Jungle_Jim said:


> I like 9mm for several reasons.
> 
> 1: it is no less deadly than 40.
> 2: It is much cheaper so you get more practice per dollar
> 3: It is easier on the guns, so your gun lasts longer.
> 4: 9mm has less recoil so follow up shots are faster and more accurate.
> 5: nearly all the famous instructors and people who have been in gun fights like it better
> 6: Same size gun holds more ammo with less weight


I have a 40 and completely agree with Jim.

With that said after the Newtown shooting it was impossible to find 9mm on the shelves. But there was stacks of 40.


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## Bayoutalker

Jungle_Jim said:


> This is a good read on the subject, written by a recognized expert in the field.
> 
> http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/defensive-carry-caliber-and-incapacitation/


Thanks for that link Jim. I will have my wife read it also.

Cliff


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## Bayoutalker

wpeschel said:


> I have a 40 and completely agree with Jim.
> 
> With that said after the Newtown shooting it was impossible to find 9mm on the shelves. But there was stacks of 40.


So, given the fact that I already have 40 ammo, should I still go with the 9? The article Jim posted says there is not much difference in performance so USD it worth the change? Why?

Cliff


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## wpeschel

Bayoutalker said:


> So, given the fact that I already have 40 ammo, should I still go with the 9? The article Jim posted says there is not much difference in performance so USD it worth the change? Why?
> 
> Cliff


Personally I would go with a 9mm and buy lots of ammo.

I would prefer faster follow up shots, more rounds in a magazine, and cheaper ammo.

In my 15 years as a Paramedic/FF I've witnessed more people shot and killed from a 380 cal than any other caliber.


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## tec

I have a 9MM and a .40. I prefer the .40 for self defense.


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## glenbo

What the FBI thinks:

http://concealednation.org/2014/10/...d-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/


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## Jungle_Jim

Bayoutalker said:


> So, given the fact that I already have 40 ammo, should I still go with the 9? The article Jim posted says there is not much difference in performance so USD it worth the change? Why?
> 
> Cliff


Do what you like. I am not trying to sway you. I just wanted to point out some facts that may help you decide.


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## Bayoutalker

wpeschel said:


> Personally I would go with a 9mm and buy lots of ammo.
> 
> I would prefer faster follow up shots, more rounds in a magazine, and cheaper ammo.
> 
> In my 15 years as a Paramedic/FF I've witnessed more people shot and killed from a 380 cal than any other caliber.


I do like the idea of more rounds in the mag but I just haven't seen a lot of difference in the price of ammo. Must be the places I am looking. How much difference are you talking about? A few other have said that too. I have seen a better supply of 40 than 9 in some places though.

My wife is looking at a 380 for her carry gun. It would be easier for me to decide on a 9 if she was shooting one too but I don't know if she will go for it.

Thanks for your opinion.

Cliff


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## Bayoutalker

Jungle_Jim said:


> Do what you like. I am not trying to sway you. I just wanted to point out some facts that may help you decide.


And I appreciate it. I guess I am looking for something to sway me one way or the other so please don't stop.

Cliff


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## Brute

Its ALL opinion and preference. You are most deadly with what you are the best at using whether it is a hammer, knife, 9mm or .40. That is the only fact here.

For an "expert" to say one is better than the other just shows ignorance on their part.


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## Jungle_Jim

Brute said:


> Its ALL opinion and preference. You are most deadly with what you are the best at using whether it is a hammer, knife, 9mm or .40. That is the only fact here.
> 
> For an "expert" to say one is better than the other just shows ignorance on their part.


Do you know how I can tell you didn't read the article? I guess The FBI and Greg Ellifritz need to take lessons from you.....


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## Bayoutalker

glenbo said:


> What the FBI thinks:
> 
> http://concealednation.org/2014/10/...d-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/


Another good article. After all of the articles I have read you guys have found two more. Thanks.

Cliff


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## Brute

Jungle_Jim said:


> Do you know how I can tell you didn't read the article? I guess The FBI and Greg Ellifritz need to take lessons from you.....


Who said I was addressing you or your article?

That FBI article was funny. It said they had to go to 9mm because they need more capacity, cheaper rounds, and a caliber that won't wear the gun out when they miss 70-80% of their targets. LOL :rotfl: I almost rolled out of my chair.


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## wpeschel

9mm
https://www.freedommunitions.com/9mm-115-gr-RN-New-p/fm9r115n-c1000.htm

40cal
https://www.freedommunitions.com/40-S-W-155-gr-FMJ-New-p/fm40r155n-c1000.htm


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## Jungle_Jim

Brute said:


> Who said I was addressing you or your article?
> 
> That FBI article was funny. It said they had to go to 9mm because they need more capacity, cheaper rounds, and a caliber that won't wear the gun out when they miss 70-80% of their targets. LOL :rotfl: I almost rolled out of my chair.


LOl, they miss 70-80% of their targets? Where did you hear that?


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## Bayoutalker

wpeschel said:


> 9mm
> https://www.freedommunitions.com/9mm-115-gr-RN-New-p/fm9r115n-c1000.htm
> 
> 40cal
> https://www.freedommunitions.com/40-S-W-155-gr-FMJ-New-p/fm40r155n-c1000.htm


You are indeed correct! I checked a few other places and the prices did not seem so far apart, that is until you look at the 1000 round cases.  That may be the thing that tips the scales.

Thanks

Cliff


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## Jungle_Jim

Cliff, you can't go wrong with 9mm.


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## Bayoutalker

Jungle_Jim said:


> LOl, they miss 70-80% of their targets? Where did you hear that?


In that second article that was posted:

"Â LEOâ€™s miss between 70 â€" 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident"

Cliff


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## Bayoutalker

Jungle_Jim said:


> Cliff, you can't go wrong with 9mm.


I do believe that. Just want to clear my mind before I drop the cash.

Cliff


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## Jungle_Jim

Bayoutalker said:


> In that second article that was posted:
> 
> " LEOâ€™s miss between 70 â€" 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident"
> 
> Cliff


LEOs and FBI are two different animals. Most cops, and I was one for a long time, only use their guns for annual qualification. Most cops aren't shooters. The FBI has a much more stringent qualification and they shoot more often.


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## Bayoutalker

I've known members of both groups and I know you are correct. I also knew a federal marshal and I have seen him shoot. I don't think he has near that miss ratio.

Cliff


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## Jungle_Jim




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## Bayoutalker

He said he prefers the 40 but is changing to the 9 for consistency, same reason I'm considering staying with the 40. I'm not sure what to make of that. 

Cliff


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## andre3k

I'm partial to 40 myself but for reasons different than most people. The only factory ammo in 40 I've bought in 13 years has only been SD ammo. I can reload for the same price as 9mm ammo using my 180gr coated bullets and 40 brass is cheap and plentiful. Most of my pistols are police trade ins and they mainly come in 40. I've purchased Sigs,HK, Glock and Smiths for insanely low prices because of the huge LE trade in market. That being said, I carry a G-17 9mm at work...and sometimes a Sig 226 in 40..and sometimes a 1911 in 45. They're tools in a toolbox Get what you want, like and shoot accurately with. I've been to too many shooting scenes to worry about caliber debates. Its all about shot placement.


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## Bayoutalker

Andre, not bragging because I'm not an expert but I can shoot any of these calibers equally well. I originally bought my current 40 because at that time most LEOs didn't believe that the 9 had the knockdown power of the 40. Since that was what they carried I trusted them. I have no regrets but ammo has come a long way for the 9, not to mention the price difference, and I might give it a try.

Cliff


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## TranTheMan

Bayoutalker said:


> My wife is looking at a 380 for her carry gun. It would be easier for me to decide on a 9 if she was shooting one too but I don't know if she will go for it.
> 
> Thanks for your opinion.
> 
> Cliff


A small 9mm like Kahr or Glock 43 would be a good carry gun for the Missus. You then would not have to have another caliber in your inventory. However, small 9mm recoil spring can be stout, so she might want to check out the guns to see if racking the slide would pose any problem.


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## Bayoutalker

TranTheMan said:


> A small 9mm like Kahr or Glock 43 would be a good carry gun for the Missus. You then would not have to have another caliber in your inventory. However, small 9mm recoil spring can be stout, so she might want to check out the guns to see if racking the slide would pose any problem.


The glock is larger than she wants and we are not glock fans anyway. No reason, just not fans. She absolutely cannot work the Kahr. She has fired a Sig P238 and she likes it and has no problem with the slide. I don't know if she can handle the 9mm recoil in a lightweight pistol. We just need to find someone who will let her try one. For now she would like a Sig Extreme in 380 if we can find one. It seems they are scarce right now.

Cliff


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## Brute

There are some gun ranges that rent out pistols for you to try. My cousin just went to one in the Houston area before she bought hers.


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## Bayoutalker

We have one here but I don't think they have any of the small compact 9mm for rent. I'll have to check. She wants one she can carry in her purse so it needs to be pretty small. That's why we have been looking at the 380. She used a Sig P238 for her LTC course and she could handle it very well. 

Cliff


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## ATX 4x4

Dont over-think it. Get what you have confidence in.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Price per round matters only when you're shooting a lot. Shot placement is far more important than caliber.


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## Bayoutalker

I hope to shoot enough to make the cost a factor. Several years ago we had a place close to home to shoot and we would go several times a week. I hope to be able to shoot that much again.

Cliff


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## SURF Buster

Buy one of each, cant go wrong.


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## dwilliams35

I just find it amazing how the .40 ammo just all of a sudden won't kill anybody like it did 10 years ago.


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## Jungle_Jim

dwilliams35 said:


> I just find it amazing how the .40 ammo just all of a sudden won't kill anybody like it did 10 years ago.


Nobody said that. What they said was that 9,40 and 45 all kill the same. If you look at the data. Each of those calibers tends to stop an aggressor with an average of two shots. Each of those calibers tends to fail to stop an attacker at a rate of 15-17%. There is statistically no difference in their effectiveness. With 9mm you get more shots per mag and it costs less to shoot.

40, being a high pressure round also tends to wear out the frames of modern pistols faster than 9mm does. If you don't shoot a lot it doesn't matter, but if you do it makes a difference.

9mm recoils less, so faster, more accurate follow up shots happen.

I am not saying that 9mm is superior. I am saying that it's not inferior and it costs less.


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## CHARLIE

Only problem with 9mm (if it really is a problem) . Is penetration someone mite accidentally shoot something three or four walls or even houses away. Big old lumbering .45 just wont do that.


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## Jungle_Jim

CHARLIE said:


> Only problem with 9mm (if it really is a problem) . Is penetration someone mite accidentally shoot something three or four walls or even houses away. Big old lumbering .45 just wont do that.


Charlie, that is just not true. I can't post the data right now because I am at work and it's blocked. Go take a look at _www.the*boxotruth*.com_
Don is a Texan and friend of mine. He does the experiments in real world conditions. There are other test places as well. 45 easily penetrates as much or more than 9mm if bullet construction is the same.


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## Bayoutalker

Jungle_Jim said:


> 45 easily penetrates as much or more than 9mm if bullet construction is the same.


That is the key, bullet construction. There are rounds for all calibers that will accommodate whatever conditions you encounter from deep penetration to almost no penetration. Years ago when I was a deputy I had 6 rounds for my .357 that were "armor piercing". They would go through a radiator and into an engine block disabling the vehicle. Worked great for stopping a chase but would go right through a person without slowing down.

I have no plans of getting rid of the 40 I already have. Just adding to the mix.

Cliff


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## dwilliams35

Jungle_Jim said:


> Nobody said that. What they said was that 9,40 and 45 all kill the same. If you look at the data. Each of those calibers tends to stop an aggressor with an average of two shots. Each of those calibers tends to fail to stop an attacker at a rate of 15-17%. There is statistically no difference in their effectiveness. With 9mm you get more shots per mag and it costs less to shoot.
> 
> 40, being a high pressure round also tends to wear out the frames of modern pistols faster than 9mm does. If you don't shoot a lot it doesn't matter, but if you do it makes a difference.
> 
> 9mm recoils less, so faster, more accurate follow up shots happen.
> 
> I am not saying that 9mm is superior. I am saying that it's not inferior and it costs less.


 I'm not arguing the ballistics here: it's ALWAYS just been a "who you talk to" as to what answer you got in the 9/40/45/etc. argument. It's just that all of a sudden over the last couple of years, 9mm is back in fashion, more than likely due to the proliferation of the 9mm "mouse guns": we had our .380 binge once the LCP and others came out, now they're bumping it back up to 9mm on similar concealable frames, and the 9mm is once again the "in" thing like it was when the government adopted the Beretta 9mm years ago: now we've got the FBI move that was as good as a high-dollar marketing campaign for the 9mm... The 40 was always a 9/45 compromise, and still is. the 9 was always a velocity/mass compromise, and still is, and the .45 was always the reverse of that same compromise. And still is. It's just a ford and chevy argument with a few extra players. There isn't one that is the best for all situations, and with the exception of just throwing ammo downrange on practice and living with the price differences, you will NEVER know if when you for-real need a gun, if that particular situation would be more appropriate for a .45 or a 9mm or a.40 or a .357. As a result, the argument is basically silly, and comes down to personal preference at best.


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## CHARLIE

Regarding penetration 9mm vs 45. Certainly bullet construction has all to do with it. I was speaking of ball vs ball. Ball vs ball the 9mm has way more penetration but with new bullets that all changes.


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## CHARLIE

dwilliams35 said:


> I'm not arguing the ballistics here: it's ALWAYS just been a "who you talk to" as to what answer you got in the 9/40/45/etc. argument. It's just that all of a sudden over the last couple of years, 9mm is back in fashion, more than likely due to the proliferation of the 9mm "mouse guns": we had our .380 binge once the LCP and others came out, now they're bumping it back up to 9mm on similar concealable frames, and the 9mm is once again the "in" thing like it was when the government adopted the Beretta 9mm years ago: now we've got the FBI move that was as good as a high-dollar marketing campaign for the 9mm... The 40 was always a 9/45 compromise, and still is. the 9 was always a velocity/mass compromise, and still is, and the .45 was always the reverse of that same compromise. And still is. It's just a ford and chevy argument with a few extra players. There isn't one that is the best for all situations, and with the exception of just throwing ammo downrange on practice and living with the price differences, you will NEVER know if when you for-real need a gun, if that particular situation would be more appropriate for a .45 or a 9mm or a.40 or a .357. As a result, the argument is basically silly, and comes down to personal preference at best.


I like the dwilliams35 quote

I have witnessed 9mm go through trunk, back seat, front seat, and into a person in front seat. 45 would never do that and speaking of ball ammo only. Did see a 45 (ball ammo) shoot through driver side door and burn or put a big blister on the side of driver and not penetrate the driver but he dern sure thought he was shot LOL. Guess he was kinda .


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## Jungle_Jim

CHARLIE said:


> I like the dwilliams35 quote
> 
> *I have witnessed 9mm go through trunk, back seat, front seat, and into a person in front seat. 45 would never do that* and speaking of ball ammo only. Did see a 45 (ball ammo) shoot through driver side door and burn or put a big blister on the side of driver and not penetrate the driver but he dern sure thought he was shot LOL. Guess he was kinda .


This is anecdotal evidence. It means nothing. Did someone fire a 45 into the same car at the distance in the same place? If not then you don't KNOW, you just imagine it couldn't happen. 
Science is hard but not if you don't try it.

Please go take a look at the boxOtruth. Don, is about 70 years old and he actually does the experiments and films or photographs it and show the results.


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## capt mullet

stay with one caliber and buy more bullets!


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## CHARLIE

Jungle Jim 

Come on JIm I would think anyone with first hand knowledge would know that a 9mm with ball ammo would penetrate further than a 45 with ball in same stuff. 

Re the 45 shooting through the car door no the 45 was closer than the 9mm shooting through the trunk. I have also witnessed a 45 shooting from inside of a car back seat shooting or attempting to shoot through the door. All that showed is dimples on the outside of the door. None penetrated. (it was an old De Soto tho) Ha 

Re I dont know. I but my money on seeing something first hand not what I read in a book or someone said. 

Back in the old days the only other bullet for a 45 was what they called "highway patrol". Best I recall It was a 185 gr ball at 1100 FPS. 
Bad back in the day.

Jim no way do I want to argue with you and dont intend to. Just saying what I have seen over the years. Everyone has an opinion and some with first hand knowledge to back it up.


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## dwilliams35

CHARLIE said:


> Jungle Jim
> 
> Come on JIm I would think anyone with first hand knowledge would know that a 9mm with ball ammo would penetrate further than a 45 with ball in same stuff.
> 
> Re the 45 shooting through the car door no the 45 was closer than the 9mm shooting through the trunk. I have also witnessed a 45 shooting from inside of a car back seat shooting or attempting to shoot through the door. All that showed is dimples on the outside of the door. None penetrated. (it was an old De Soto tho) Ha
> 
> Re I dont know. I but my money on seeing something first hand not what I read in a book or someone said.
> 
> Back in the old days the only other bullet for a 45 was what they called "highway patrol". Best I recall It was a 185 gr ball at 1100 FPS.
> Bad back in the day.
> 
> Jim no way do I want to argue with you and dont intend to. Just saying what I have seen over the years. Everyone has an opinion and some with first hand knowledge to back it up.


Well, it probably pretty much predates the proliferation of 9mm and 40's, but a good friend of mine who was in law enforcement at the time was involved in a gunfight at the end of a prison escape back decades ago: he said that this went on for quite a while with .45's and .38's bouncing off the guy's windshield and door frame; it finally stopped when a Ranger showed up with a .357 and ended it with one bullet that finally got through the windshield and on target..


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## Jungle_Jim

CHARLIE said:


> Jungle Jim
> 
> Come on JIm I would think anyone with first hand knowledge would know that a 9mm with ball ammo would penetrate further than a 45 with ball in same stuff.
> 
> Re the 45 shooting through the car door no the 45 was closer than the 9mm shooting through the trunk. I have also witnessed a 45 shooting from inside of a car back seat shooting or attempting to shoot through the door. All that showed is dimples on the outside of the door. None penetrated. (it was an old De Soto tho) Ha
> 
> Re I dont know. I but my money on seeing something first hand not what I read in a book or someone said.
> 
> Back in the old days the only other bullet for a 45 was what they called "highway patrol". Best I recall It was a 185 gr ball at 1100 FPS.
> Bad back in the day.
> 
> Jim no way do I want to argue with you and dont intend to. Just saying what I have seen over the years. Everyone has an opinion and some with first hand knowledge to back it up.


 Charlie, you imply I have no first hand experience. I posted a link to a site ran by a man about your age, a Texan, who actually shoots things and posts the data. Did you even go look at it? Charlie, I have combat experience in the Marines. I was a policeman for 7 years. I still work in the field. I shoot competitively. I attend classes every year. I shoot about 20k rounds per year in practice. I have attended Federal's (the ammo maker) school on bonded bullets and barrier penetration. I have shot cars myself, with rifle and pistol. Windshields, doors, trunks....all that to learn how bonded bullets deviate from point of aim less than others when penetrating barriers. I do not post anecdotal evidence as proof of anything.

The internet is full of people who have made an entire philosophy on self defense based on what they saw happen one time. I suggest that you look at trends, over time with thousands of shootings. I am not saying what you witnessed isn't true. One must look at aspects of what you saw. The 9mm round, did it only penetrate the thin trunk wall, back seat etc. The 45 did it hit the outer door, window cranking mechanism and then inner door panel? In some cars the arm that raises the window is thick steel. We don't know the answer to those questions.
I don't wish to argue either. I respect your knowledge and experience.


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## mchildress

Don't forget the FBI had 10mm also. Actually caused the birth of the 40 cal. Seems like when they have some money to spend they change calibers every few years. Any of them will work if you do your part.


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## Bayoutalker

mchildress said:


> Don't forget the FBI had 10mm also. Actually caused the birth of the 40 cal. Seems like when they have some money to spend they change calibers every few years. Any of them will work if you do your part.


I know some people like that! Extra money means new toys. Nothing new there.

Cliff


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## CHARLIE

JIm

The penetration test was not ball. And thanks for your service. I know since you have been around and are informed that again with ball ammo the 9mm will out penetrate the 45. Common knowledge. As far as implying you have no knowledge I certainly didnt mean to imply such a thing we just differ one one thing. Penetration of the 9mm vs 45. with ball ammo thats all. PS the 9mm penetrated the door and 45 didnt.


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## dwilliams35

Well, the experts say that a .45 will beat a 9mm anytime. Of course, if you don't like that, you oughta be able to find another set of experts that says the reverse inside of about fifteen seconds if your google isn't running too slow..


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## CHARLIE

dwilliams35 said:


> Well, the experts say that a .45 will beat a 9mm anytime. Of course, if you don't like that, you oughta be able to find another set of experts that says the reverse inside of about fifteen seconds if your google isn't running too slow..


X2 ole Williams is right again. LOL.

I forgot to mention to JIm I did shoot competition with 45's years ago becoming a distinguished master at Camp Perry Ohio along with 40 years law enforcement. But that was some time ago I am just plain me nowdays. Good luck and certainly a fun post.


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## matagordamudskipper

+p+ speer gold dot for 9mm has some powwow, Glock 19 cycles it
Underwood +p .380 has much more pop than any other .380 tried so far. Colt mustang cycles it.


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## dbarham

.40 Cal for me 


Makes a bigger mess imo


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## Trouthunter

You know there are a lot of people on these boards who have decades of experience in shooting competition and in law enforcement. 

Well some may not know about it because most of us don't feel that it's necessary to tell everyone.

TH


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## matagordamudskipper

I'd go with rock paper Scissors. Either one would hurt to be on the receiving end. Carry 9mm, .380, even .22mag but 44mag is a romper stomper, busted a pig in the head with 240gr hp, pretty gnarly eye balls popped out, every bone was rubble.


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## MrG

wpeschel said:


> ....With that said after the Newtown shooting it was impossible to find 9mm on the shelves. But there was stacks of 40.


I love my 9's but that is exactly the reason I have my 40's. They still go 'bang' and bad guys don't like them either.


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## MrG

Trouthunter said:


> You know there are a lot of people on these boards who have decades of experience in shooting competition and in law enforcement.
> 
> Well some may not know about it because most of us don't feel that it's necessary to tell everyone.
> 
> TH





> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Trounhunter again


I will say that I've been here for years and I'm one of those who did not know about it. I grew up knowing many WWII vets and they had the same outlook. You guys are an anchor on this site.


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## Bocephus

SEAL teams have been carrying the Sig Sauer P226 for a couple of decades. They're in the business of shooting bad guys. They love their Sig P226's.

If a 9mm is good enough for those guys, I don't think I'd argue !


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## dwilliams35

Bocephus said:


> SEAL teams have been carrying the Sig Sauer P226 for a couple of decades. They're in the business of shooting bad guys. They love their Sig P226's.
> 
> If a 9mm is good enough for those guys, I don't think I'd argue !


They can really carry about whatever they want, and there's a Colt 1911 and a .45 HK on their rack too. I think that's more of just being able to carry more ammo, and be able to resupply in the field, than anything else. Those guys don't generally have poor shot placement on their list of concerns; they could probably be effective with about any caliber. The standard-issue Sig is about to get replaced with a Glock, anyway..


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## Bocephus

Amen, I wouldn't want one of those guys to hunt me down with a BB gun !

You nailed it, shot placement is key. A lot of hunters learn that the hard way when they gut shoot a deer.


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## ockhamsrazor

Sold all my 40's and went 9mm or 45 as a carry gun. Small guns in 9mm and larger ones in 45. My rounds on target went up and more in the ten ring. I just had to many control issues with the 40 and realized I could get more solid hits with the 9mm. The best thing to do is go with the largest caliber you can get the most hits with in a stressful situation. If that's happens to be a 40 good but if its a 22 that's OK too as hits of any caliber count more than loud misses of bigger calibers.


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## Jungle_Jim

Trouthunter said:


> You know there are a lot of people on these boards who have decades of experience in shooting competition and in law enforcement.
> 
> Well some may not know about it because most of us don't feel that it's necessary to tell everyone.
> 
> TH


It was relevant to the conversation, but, I guess I should be ashamed of it, right?


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## Bayoutalker

Jungle_Jim said:


> It was relevant to the conversation, but, I guess I should be ashamed of it, right?


When I started this conversation I was hoping to get some opinions from people with experience. Unless someone says what their experience is it is hard to determine how much weight to give to all the comments. While I appreciate everyone's participation, those with more experience help to tip the scale.

That is one of the problems with forum discussions. Unless you know the person personally you know very little about them.

Cliff


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## RedXCross

Yep,


ockhamsrazor said:


> Sold all my 40's and went 9mm or 45 as a carry gun. Small guns in 9mm and larger ones in 45. My rounds on target went up and more in the ten ring. I just had to many control issues with the 40 and realized I could get more solid hits with the 9mm. The best thing to do is go with the largest caliber you can get the most hits with in a stressful situation. If that's happens to be a 40 good but if its a 22 that's OK too as hits of any caliber count more than loud misses of bigger calibers.


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## dwilliams35

Bayoutalker said:


> When I started this conversation I was hoping to get some opinions from people with experience. Unless someone says what their experience is it is hard to determine how much weight to give to all the comments. While I appreciate everyone's participation, those with more experience help to tip the scale.
> 
> That is one of the problems with forum discussions. Unless you know the person personally you know very little about them.
> 
> Cliff


 It's still just personal preference and "who you talk to", no matter what you decide. I'd say don't worry about it: pick up some guns and shoot them. They've all got different characteristics, and it all boils down to what you're comfortable with and what you can shoot well: the time it takes to get a second well-aimed round downrange, in the real world, is probably significantly more important to just what the first round did to begin with: that all goes back to the gun and the shooter, not the ballistics.. In all likelihood, there's not a person on earth (with the possible exception of some long-dead German scientists in the employ of the National Socialist Party) with enough actual trigger time against actual human bodies, with an assortment of calibers, weapons, and situations, to make anything but an anecdotal assessment of the efficacy of any one gun or caliber: you'll just never get beyond the point where the margin of statistical error isn't huge, especially when you consider that the actual difference between pretty much any centerfire pistol cartridges is marginal at best. Just run some rounds downrange and use what you shoot well: recoil level and "type" is a big part of making THAT decision, but nothing else involved in a scientific ballistic assessment really means diddly-squat if you ever have to actually pull a firearm on somebody..


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## Bayoutalker

My question was not mainly about which round was better as much as why a person choose a certain caliber. If the reason was effectiveness that's great but there were quite a few reasons that I hadn't thought of such as weight, ammo cost, etc. and that is what I was after. 

For whatever reason, I've been a reasonably good shot with a variety of firearms both long guns and handguns since I was old enough to shoot. I have also had the opportunity to shoot pretty much every caliber from 22 to a 454 Casull and while I didn't particularly like the recoil on some of the larger calibers I was able to handle them. That is why I was looking for other reasons to choose a caliber for a cc firearm.

Thanks again to all of those who offered their expertise and opinions. It really helped.

Cliff


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## auden80

When I was in middle school in the early 90s, 3 burglars broke into our detached garage in the backyard and stole our freezer, dads lawn equipment and some of dads antiques. The neighbor called my dad and told him we were being robbed. We lived on a corner so probably made for easy targets. Dad went out with his browning high power loaned to him by his boss at the car wash for protection since he dealt with lots of cash. (Dad was in the military at that time but with 4 kids still needed a part time job)
He went out yelling at them with his pistol in hand. One was waiting in the truck and two were still in the yard. One was behind the other then came out and fired 3 shots with a bersa 380. First shot missed but the last two hit my dad. He took one to the right collar bone breaking it and one to the right bicep messing up his one and only tattoo he got at 19 in the navy. Neither did any damaged that kept him out of work for more than 2 days. He instantly fired 3 shots back with his 9. The first shot was right down Broadway and hit right between the pecs, second shot missed and third shot was about 2 inches left and 2 inches high of the heart. The guy in the truck and the other guy in the yard took off, but the shooter started running then stopped turned and fired another shot at my dad but was way off. My dad after firing his shots was stuck in shock and still there in his firing position and didn't react and that's how my mom found him when she ran outside. 
A few days later we found out what happened to the guy my dad shot when detectives called. The First shot richocteted off the sternum and lodged in the left breast, the other shot richocteted off a rib and stuck in the guys lung. He was neither incapacitate or slowed by the 9. My dad was using Hollows at the time but they didn't work. Of course they weren't like they are now and were whatever was available at Kmart at the time. But afterwards, daddy got a shotgun for the house and his boss got him a 1911 for the carwash. It seems like the 9 had trouble penetrating bone in real life.


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## Bocephus

Jungle_Jim said:


> It was relevant to the conversation, but, I guess I should be ashamed of it, right?


Go sit in the corner you dirty rotten 9mm shooter !!!!

:biggrin:


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## muney pit

Lots of anti cop stuff but if you weed threw that and read source material some have caibker used and effects.
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cEGQ3eAFKpFBVq1k2mZIy5mBPxC6nBTJHzuSWtZQSVw/htmlview?pli=1

Http://shootingthebull.net/blog/357-magnum-check-center-mass-hit-check-instant-stop-er/

Reports from the morgue

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm


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## Jungle_Jim

In this thread so far, we have people that posted 9mm penetrates too much and that 45 is better because it doesn't. We also have a post that alleges 9mm doesn't penetrate enough so the user switched to 45. 

Dwilliams35's post at the top of this page is absolutely correct.


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## dwilliams35

Jungle_Jim said:


> In this thread so far, we have people that posted 9mm penetrates too much and that 45 is better because it doesn't. We also have a post that alleges 9mm doesn't penetrate enough so the user switched to 45.
> 
> Dwilliams35's post at the top of this page is absolutely correct.


Yeah, but 9mm is for chicks.


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## Jungle_Jim

dwilliams35 said:


> Yeah, but 9mm is for chicks.


:rotfl:


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## Mark454

muney pit said:


> Lots of anti cop stuff but if you weed threw that and read source material some have caibker used and effects.
> http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cEGQ3eAFKpFBVq1k2mZIy5mBPxC6nBTJHzuSWtZQSVw/htmlview?pli=1
> 
> Http://shootingthebull.net/blog/357-magnum-check-center-mass-hit-check-instant-stop-er/
> 
> Reports from the morgue
> 
> http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm


The reports from the morgue was real interesting.


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## Jungle_Jim

I highly recommend listening to the podcast http://ballisticradio.com/

The host is a friend of mine and he routinely has guests on his show that have been in gun fights, have been shot etc etc. It is a great show.

This one would be a good one to start with. Tom Givens' students have been in 62 gun fights. He talks about some of them http://ballisticradio.com/2013/05/14/podcast-ballistic-radio-episode-10-may-12-2013/


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## capt mullet

less calibers are better because you can buy more bullets.

stay with the 40

dont make it a he said she said Im better your better its better.

I am a big believer in sticking with a few calibers but having tons of bullets in those calibers. 

In a bad situation I wont care what I have in my hand. 22, 45, pellet gun, something! because anything including a 22 is better than nothing!!


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## Bayoutalker

I think I am going with the 9mm. That way if my wife decides to change up from a 380 we will be shooting the same caliber. The 40 is just too much for her in a small size pistol. In the mean time I'll still have my current 40 if I decide to carry it. I just need to find a way to conceal it.

Cliff


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## matagordamudskipper

10mm will be mi next, G29 
Barrel swaps to a .40 or .357sig make it that much better


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## el dorado

I can't see a reason for carrying anything other than a 9mm given the capabilities of today's ammunition. People lose sight of the distance they are fighting at and the purpose of the CCW weapon. At any rate, shoot what you can put on target, accurately, under stress. The rest is really just details.


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## czman

^^^^^^ This


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## dbarham

I can hit em with both


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## Trouthunter

> It was relevant to the conversation, but, I guess I should be ashamed of it, right?


Oh did you think that was directed at you for some reason?

TH


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## RedXCross

Lmao
Classic.


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## Jungle_Jim

Trouthunter said:


> Oh did you think that was directed at you for some reason?
> 
> TH


Are you denying it?


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## CHARLIE

Jungle JIm

I am sure it wasnt directed at you Jim. I think he was just saying there are some folks who are on this board who like you, have some experience. That was all. I think we both know its not about caliber its whatever you can hit with and by all means during such a trying time as a gunfight being somewhat in control and being able to make the right decisions. Good luck my friend.


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## coogerpop

wpeschel said:


> I have a 40 and completely agree with Jim.
> 
> With that said after the Newtown shooting it was impossible to find 9mm on the shelves. But there was stacks of 40.


The available ammo should be a major clue as to which caliber is the most wanted...the majority of the people can't be wrong....9 is the way to go...but if you have both calibers it gives you a choice when ammo it tight....


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## Jungle_Jim

CHARLIE said:


> Jungle Jim
> 
> *I am sure it wasnt directed at you Jim. I think he was just saying there are some folks who are on this board who like you, have some experience. That was all*. I think we both know its not about caliber its whatever you can hit with and by all means during such a trying time as a gunfight being somewhat in control and being able to make the right decisions. Good luck my friend.


Charlie, thank you, but he did direct it at me.

Me-".... I have combat experience in the Marines. I was a policeman for 7 years. I still work in the field. I shoot competitively. I attend classes every year. I shoot about 20k rounds per year in practice. I have attended Federal's (the ammo maker) school on bonded bullets and barrier penetration. I have shot cars myself, with rifle and pistol. Windshields, doors, trunks....all that to learn how bonded bullets deviate from point of aim less than others when penetrating barriers. I do not post anecdotal evidence as proof of anything."

Trouthunter-"You know there are a lot of people on these boards who have decades of experience in shooting competition and in law enforcement.

Well some may not know about it because most of us don't feel that it's necessary to tell everyone."

Me-"It was relevant to the conversation, but, I guess I should be ashamed of it, right?"

Trouthunter-"Oh did you think that was directed at you for some reason?"

Me-"Are you denying it? "

Once again Trout is trolling. He hasn't actually posted anything relevant. He just attacks me. I don't care but I am going to rebut. I am not ashamed of my service and will talk about it any time I want. I have been a public servant for 30 years. I will stack my experience and training against anyone. I try to provide some insight and help people here based on that experience and training.


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## Bayoutalker

Jungle_Jim said:


> I am not ashamed of my service and will talk about it any time I want. I have been a public servant for 30 years. I will stack my experience and training against anyone. I try to provide some insight and help people here based on that experience and training.


And at least some of us really appreciate it.

Cliff


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## dwilliams35

coogerpop said:


> The available ammo should be a major clue as to which caliber is the most wanted...the majority of the people can't be wrong....9 is the way to go....


 No, it is a major clue as to just what the ammo companies are set up to run the most of and the easiest, the profit margin on any given round, and just what the nutjob ammo hoarders are most fond of these days.


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## CHARLIE

Jim

You gotta re think your position. TH certainly was not and will not directing anything personally or negatively at you. Was just stating what is true on this board.Lot of folks have lot of experience both in the Military, law enforcement, and compitetion. Shooting rifle and pistol. Thats all. I know for sure he appreciates your service same as I do. No need to be so defensive. Most everyone has an opinion right or wrong. Just relax. LOL Everything is good.


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## RB II

At the end of the day, personal protection is about making holes in the bad guy. PERIOD. I don't care how much experience you have that you base your opinion on or what any statistic you might quote, if a person isn't comfortable with a weapon/caliber, they will not hit their target, whether that is a 380 or a 44 mag. If you can hit your target under duress..........THAT is the best weapon/caliber for you. If that happens to be the one with the most capacity, all the better. NOONE else can make that decision/choice for you.

For me, that is a Glock 26 or 27, I have not found any difference in my ability to hit the target with either. Depending on when/where I might be, I might also have a 38 special revolver or a P238 as backup. Always at least one extra high capacity mag for the primary firearm. 

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Trouthunter

> Me-"Are you denying it? "


Yes I am.

And you have serious issues if you think my making that comment was directed at you or you thought it was appropriate to direct it at you.

"He hasn't actually posted anything relevant."

I think it was very much relevant.

I was just pointing out that as on most boards, this one included there are many people whose backgrounds are unknown.

On 2cool we have ex spooks, we have more than a few Rangers, one of my good friends who recently passed away, well two of them actually, were Special Forces in the 5th group in Vietnam, and both did a little time in MACV-SOG.

We have guys on here who worked security for the State Department and went places and did things that are still classified.

Going back over what all you typed, and your alpha male personality I see how you might think that what I wrote was directed at you when in fact it was just a statement to the group, food for thought such that it is.

Trust me on this; if I have something to say to someone I'll say it right to them.

TH


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## glenbo

Is this hissing match over so we can get back to discussing ammo?


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## Jungle_Jim

glenbo said:


> Is this hissing match over so we can get back to discussing ammo?


Trouthunter has not posted anything about ammo in this thread. In fact he hasn't said one word about anything gun related in this thread. Go back and check.

I'd be happy to continue the discussion.


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## Trouthunter

LOL! Big ego maybe?

Too funny.

TH


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## sargentfisherman

*9mm or 40 cal ?*

9mm is a NATO round it can be found allover the world not so much with a 40 cal it's all about shoot placement! practice practice!!!!


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