# Could I plant more in this bed?



## MesquiteMan (Jun 28, 2008)

This is my first year to try a vegetable garden. Some of you probably saw my question on my cucs. Being new, I am not sure what kind of spacing I should aim for. Like most, I want to get the maximum use of my space! This is a picture of bed 2. On the closest end, there are 3 burpless cucumber plants. Next is 2 Black Zucchini, and on the other end is a Crimson Watermelon. In your experienced opinion, is there room to plant more stuff in here? The beds are 4' wide x 16' long inside. I already have plenty of tomato and pepper plants and have plenty of room set aside for my green beans and black eyed peas as well as okra and sweet corn. Could I add some more cucs or zucchini?

Thanks in advance for any help!


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

I would think okra down one side would work well. Maybe some peppers I between the sets of squash.


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## MesquiteMan (Jun 28, 2008)

I have a bed for okra already and have enough peppers for our needs in the ground. Here is a plan I created for my garden to show what I am doing and where.


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## StrikerX (Aug 31, 2009)

Watermelon vines take up ALOT of room. I planted mine on the edge of garden and they grew out 15' into the yard. The vines will root and branch off too. If I had your setup I would leave it as is. As the watermelon grows you can have the vine grow around the inside perimeter. This way it has plent of room. Add a trellis for the cucs and zucchini.


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## histprof (Oct 30, 2011)

The watermelon will send out long runners that will get out of a 4' wide bed in a hurry. You will need to go out every couple of days and gently wrap the runners up into the bed to keep your walkways open. If the melon takes off--no guarantee on that, btw-- you will be glad that you have the space around it. I am personally 0-3 on watermelon. I think that they need really fertile soil and more nutrition than my lazy self will give them. I have had good luck with cukes, canteloupe and honeydew, though.

Also, two zucchini plants may seem like you are being conservative, but you will be giving it away to anyone who will take it at the height of the harvest.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

My suggestions may be more for next year for you...but I'll offer them and you decide. 

Plan ahead and use hot weather plants e.g. okra and cow peas and melons to plant in boxes that you harvest spring plants from, e.g. corn and green beans. The spring plants should be in boxes that were vacated by winter/fall plants. This will make far better utilization of your space at the right times and increase production substantially. 

In one box plant a full three rows of corn, the entire length of the box. Intersperse green beans with the corn plants. Bean and corn are great companion plants. You need more corn plants in close proximity for pollination. You can repeat 1 in another box if you want more corn and green beans. When the corn and green beans are harvested which will happen in June, then you will have 2 boxes for okra and cow peas and melons. These will grow through the entire heat cycle of the summer...but they won't do much of anything in the ground right now. Plan ahead and use hot weather plants after the spring growing season to prolong and increase your productivity. 

Next year, plant some seed potatoes in late Jan/ early Feb and harvest them end of May. Again, that leaves a box for hot weather plants after that. Also, plant some broc, cabbage, etc. in fall and harvest during the winter up to early spring leaving space available after the harvest. Plant onions in fall and leave them in the ground until May when you can harvest and then use the space for hot weather plants...get the idea? 

Basically, I'm suggesting you plan for a year around garden rather than a spring garden and in doing so you will increase production many times over, add wonderful tasting plants to your menu, and make your job much easier because your plants will be in the ground at the right times, i.e. the times Nature intended.


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## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

MesquiteMan said:


> .....
> *Could I plant more in this bed?*
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help!


You could do what ever you want ... it's yours to play with ....

Keep in mind Okra will take up more room than you think ....

IMO - take it easy with it the 1st year ... *have fun* ... you might consider searching the net for "square foot gardening"

Read up on what your going to do for the fall ....

Most of all have fun, make some mistakes and learn form them ....

Sometime we can be to technical with this stuff and it does not have to be ... play with differnt things you think you would like to try ....

The most important thing you can do is imporve / AMEND you soil .... it will make what ever your growing taste better ... I promise


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## MesquiteMan (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback thus far, everyone! 

StrikerX, I am working on a trellis for the cucs. I think the zucchini I have a bush variety. Will they do any good with a trellis?

Histprof, That is pretty much what I intended to do. That is why I left as much space as I did. The bed seems bare at this point though! That is why I wanted confirmation!

Meadowlark, That is my plan. I am getting a late start this year since we decided to do this late in the season but plan to have a garden throughout the year. I am already planning an expansion as well. Don't want to bite off more than I can chew at the moment, though!

I currently have 6- 8' rows of corn. We LOVE corn. I wonder if it is too late to plant the rest of the two beds with another planting of corn? It will be a week behind the first planting. Then do my peas after the corn is done and plant the green beans in the corn. Thoughts?


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## MesquiteMan (Jun 28, 2008)

Notes in red!



Muddskipper said:


> You could do what ever you want ... it's yours to play with ....Just looking for suggestions on what will work well!
> 
> Keep in mind Okra will take up more room than you think ....Thanks for that tip. I planned to only plant 4 plants or so.
> 
> ...


And just to be clear again...we are having a blast with this! I wish I would have had/made time to start a garden years ago. It has been a great way to spend quality time with my wife and 7 year old daughter.


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## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

Mesquite - it sounds like your on the right track ...

I see your in San marcus, so it will be tough for most to reccomend what does best, it's why I reccoemend you trying differnt things .... heck I'm in Houston, on the North side, and my Grandmother does better with things on the south side .... so micro-climates really do play into it ... let alone your differnt region than most here ....

Your own compost is the very best thing you can use to help your soil .... and it's FREE! ... why is it the best- because it's from estiblished plants in your area ... it's is putting back nutrients that were taken out of your area, and it's from things that have adapated in your area .....

If your needing something to hold you over in the compost realm - go to lowes and get some Black Kow Compost - spelled with a "K" .... it works in a pinch ....
I use it when I need somthing more refined ...

The worm castings are real cool, and make sure your own compost pile is big enough (4'X4'X4') to really work.

Last mulch with what you already have - leaves, small sticks and grasses .... it does not need to be store bought baged mulch .... a tip I like to share is, prior to putting that stuff down, lay down 4 sheets of wet newspaper. the paper breaks down, it helps keep weeds at bay, and offers another level of help.

Outside of ammending - buy your seeds from a non- GMO supplier aka: Herloom seeds

I get my seeds from www.rareseeds.com , all the seeds can be taken from the previous years plants and always re-used.

I promise they have stuff you have never seen ....


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## MesquiteMan (Jun 28, 2008)

Mudskipper,

Thanks so much for the tips! Question for you on mulch...

My mom has a really nice yard and LOTs of Live Oak Trees. She has a lawn guy that rakes them all up and then they dump them in the woods on the lot she owns next door. There are huge piles of leave from this past season alone. It is advisable to use oak leaves as mulch and if so, should I shred them somehow? Not sure I would want just a bunch of full leaves in my garden if for no other reason than looks! I know, it may sound silly but I do want my garden to look nice as well!

For compost, I bought 8 yards of mushroom compost to amend my soil initially with and still have some left over. I also own a dump trailer and may take the drive to Gonzales to the mushroom farm to get more. I bought the initial amount locally and picked it up but it was $35/yrd vs. $9/yrd at direct from the farm. Of course there is diesel to go get it.

I bought all of my seeds at Lowes of all places. We don't have any good garden centers around here. Our local Lowes sells seeds from the Sustainable Seed Company so I stuck with their organic seeds from them. I will order seeds in the future but did not have time this year. The plants I planted came from a local nursery and I tried to use heirlooms when I could. My tomatoes are Porter which are heirloom and were given to me by a gardening friend. I am going to plant some blackberry bushes in a different garden and they were given to me by a friend who rooted them from cuttings. They are Brazos. I will certainly be sticking with organic and open pollinated as much as possible!

Thanks again for taking your time to share some of your experience!


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## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

Take those leaves and compost them ... but you need grass too
Carbon:nitrogen
Leaves and grass

Yes you need a balance for compost, but they would break down over time .... but it needs *heat *(natural heat) from the big pile thats where I get the four by four by four size.

If it were in your landscape I would say use it, but your right .... it would look odd in the garden ... but would work

Mushroom compost - per Howard Garrett aka: Dirt Doctor

_Q. What is the best compost? Do I want to use composted manure, mushroom compost or what? This will be used in a veggie/her/flower garden and rose beds that I plan to till up over the next two weekends. - T.W., Dallas _

_A. The best compost is that you make yourself from plants and animals that grew on your property. The second best is an affordable compost made near your property. The point is to avoid shipping. Some composts come in bags and some don't. There are excellent composts that are made from cotton burs, mushroom beds, sludge bio-solids, tree trimmings and animal manures. Try some of the different ones and see which works best in your soil. _

_*Mushroom compost has one small flaw. It is made of all soft materials. There are no big pieces in it. Add a bulking agent of your own partially completed compost or just be careful watering. It holds water a long time.*_

*Lowes/ Home Depot/ and other big box stores*
Here is the deal - yes they have what we need to get it done. BUT they buy for a section of the USA, not your state, or your area.
They are not buying what will ALWAYS grow best, and I have yet to find Herloom seeds there (not saying they don't have them)
There is a diferenc with organic and non-GMO seeds
organic is a term widley used for marketing puroposes, and not yet regulated

LAST - carfully choose where you plant that black berry - they get big and out of hand easily .... I have choosen not to grow one and just go to the places that allow me to pick my self  ... I hate small thorny plants


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## MesquiteMan (Jun 28, 2008)

Muddskipper said:


> Take those leaves and compost them ... but you need grass too
> Carbon:nitrogen
> Leaves and grass
> 
> ...


One thing about me, I don't do anything half arsed and I read a LOT about whatever I am doing. I also ask lots of questions from different sources.

I have been following the recommended varieties suggested by Texas A&M for my county. I have deviated a little but for the most part, have stayed with their recommendations. The seeds I bought at Lowes were all on their recommended list for this county.

Back to mulch...since I don't have anything other than the leaves and really don't want them in my garden unless I shred them somehow...what do you think about hay? I can get hay easily. I am concerned about the weed seeds, though. Any other suggestions? There is a place about 2 miles from here called New Braunfels Mulch. They have all kinds of mulch. I really prefer to not be buying a lot of stuff but could easily go there with my dump trailer and get all that I need. Comal county also has free mulch made from the trees and bushes they take in at their public recycling center. Thoughts on that? I have a lot of dead cedar trees on my property from the drought a couple of years ago and thought about renting a chipper and making my own mulch but my gardening friend said it is not advisable to use in the beds.

The blackberry bushes are going outside the garden area. I may have to do another fence for it to keep the deer out. Do you know if deer eat them? Again, I have all the room I need so I will keep them out of the garden. At one point, I was going to put them in along the north fence of the garden, inside the fence but decided against it due to space and the darn thorns!

Thanks again for the advice!


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## mas360 (Nov 21, 2006)

MesquiteMan said:


> Mudskipper,
> 
> I bought the initial amount locally and picked it up but it was $35/yrd vs. $9/yrd at direct from the farm. Of course there is diesel to go get it.


I'd be hog in heaven if I can find mulch for $9/yrd in my locale.


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## MesquiteMan (Jun 28, 2008)

mas360 said:


> I'd be hog in heaven if I can find mulch for $9/yrd in my locale.


Just to clarify, this is for mushroom compost. If that is what you meant instead of mulch, then where are you located? If you are anywhere near me, maybe we can work something out where I go get a load from the mushroom farm and you help a little with the diesel. Alternately, if you are willing to drive to Gonzales, you can get it yourself direct from the mushroom farm. Here is their website: http://www.kitchenpride.com/compost.aspx


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## speckle-catcher (May 20, 2004)

MesquiteMan said:


> *One thing about me, I don't do anything half arsed and I read a LOT about whatever I am doing. I also ask lots of questions from different sources.*
> 
> I have been following the recommended varieties suggested by Texas A&M for my county. I have deviated a little but for the most part, have stayed with their recommendations. The seeds I bought at Lowes were all on their recommended list for this county.
> 
> ...


he ain't kidding about that, fo sho!

make sure you show me the garden tomorrow.


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## Dick Hanks (Aug 16, 2007)

MesquiteMan... Please take the time to rethink what Muddskipper was telling you about square foot gardening. I, like you, have a lot of land that can be dedicated to garden space. I have found that "square foot" gardening is just a whole easier.

Every square foot of garden space will be occupied by either weeds or the plants that you want to grow. Using your space to the fullest, leaves very little room for weeds to grow. You have a choice of having 50% weeds and 50% crop or you can square foot garden and get 80% crop and 20% weeds. I decided the latter was a lot more fun. 

The 1st thing I do is plan where my long season crops will be going and everything else gets planned and planted around that space. 
also think in terms or rows being 3 foot wide, not single plant wide. I no longer dedicate row space to radishes, lettuce, beets, carrots, etc. These crops now occupy the space that used to be occupied by weeds. Most vining crops really don't start spreading out until hot weather comes. Radishes can be planted fairly close to them, and are ready to pull before the vining plant needs the space. Slower crops can be planted a little farther away from the long season plant. Lettuce, can benefit from a little shade from a tomato plant as the season gets warmer. Experiment, but remember: Bare ground will be growing something. Do you want to weed it or eat it?

Beside less weeding time, this method requires less water and fertilizer (less is wasted), mulching, and on going care of the area dedicated to the garden. Your soil amending all happens in a much tighter area, and is a very important part of the success of "square foot gardening".

As for trellising vining crops. Tomato and cukes both work fantastic in tomato cages. The cukes hang above ground and are clean plus much more uniform in shape and color. A lot of space is saved as well. I haven't had as good of luck with trellising the big vining plants like zukes, melons, etc.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Dick Hanks said:


> MesquiteMan... Please take the time to rethink what Muddskipper was telling you about square foot gardening. I, like you, have a lot of land that can be dedicated to garden space. I have found that "square foot" gardening is just a whole easier....


Interesting read....but I find the exact opposite to be true. Having a sizable area that you can work with equipment is far easier in my experience than working square foot areas by hand. I find the plants do far better with more room, also. In my garden area I use cover crops and have very few weeds. I can rest and rotate crops as needed.

Its much easier for me to cultivate a large area than to hand weed a small area...and the production is orders of magnitude greater. Small plots also tie me down...whereas my large garden will do just fine with only weekly attention. Need to add a load of manure...just back up the dump trailor, dump and spread...never touch a shovel. Most tasks can be completed in just a few minutes.

There's many ways to approach gardening...all are good. The key is to find what works for you and what you enjoy most doing.


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## Dick Hanks (Aug 16, 2007)

I do agree with you Meadowlark; when any kind of mechanized equipment is available and being used. All of the large scale farmers also use the single row concept because it does allow equipment to be used efficiently. 

Square foot gardening only works well with one piece of equipment.... A hoe. I guess that I should directed my post to the lower tech gardeners, like myself.

I like your last line: "The key is to find what works for you and what you enjoy most doing". That is what it needs to be all about. But always keep an open mind to ideas that can make it more enjoyable.


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## peckerwood (Jun 9, 2012)

Like the jerk Dr. Phil would say,"just do it".The learning stuff on your own is the fun of gardening,then you have your own opinions.I was taught gardening while growing up out of nessesity,just to have something to eat in the winter,and still try new things,and wonder why Grandad and Dad done things the way they did.


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## Meadowlark (Jul 19, 2008)

Dick Hanks said:


> ...
> I like your last line: "The key is to find what works for you and what you enjoy most doing". That is what it needs to be all about. But always keep an open mind to ideas that can make it more enjoyable.


True Dick, very true. I've done it from using only a hoe and a spade to the other extreme of using a tiller and tractor. I'll never forget the agony of turning black gumbo soil with a garden spade in the Texas sun....yes, I definitely prefer having the help of some equipment, but certainly respect those who don't. The important thing is to get out there and raise your vegetables.


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