# Lawyer for Game Violations - Hill Country



## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

Hi all - 
Does anyone know of a lawyer in or around Austin that has experience with Game Law violations? 
I was given a ticket for an Under 13" Buck that I intend to fight.

It was a cull buck and the "sprouted antler" came out of the base of the head, not off the main beam.

Thanks!


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

How would a "sprouted antler" have anything to do with the width between the two main beams?

TH


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## heffleysmill (Aug 10, 2010)

do you happen to have a picture of the head?


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## pipeliner24 (Apr 10, 2013)

Trouthunter said:


> How would a "sprouted antler" have anything to do with the width between the two main beams?
> 
> TH


I'm thinking the game warden didn't consider it to be a spike,but instead a forked antler under 13"?


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)




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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

Majek11 said:


> I'm thinking the game warden didn't consider it to be a spike,but instead a forked antler under 13"?


Correct


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

Edit: just saw the picture, fight the ticket. And if a young person shot the buck, the warden is a DB.


Trouthunter said:


> How would a "sprouted antler" have anything to do with the width between the two main beams?
> 
> TH


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Yea you can beat that. I'd talk to the judge who has jurisdiction and show him the pictures. No way you could have seen that extra antler.

TH


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## Timemachine (Nov 25, 2008)

I agree with fighting it.


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

yes it was my 13 year old - and it gets worse - we were on a new lease and the Lease manager, who is a total D-bag came rolling up on me in the field and before we could even discuss it, HE CALLS THE GAME WARDEN ON ME! I would have called him myself just for clarification sake, but the idiot didnt even give me the chance - he had already texted him pictures!!

My son had a nice 9 point in front of him and I told him to let it walk and take the cull because getting him out of the gene pool was the better thing to do.

Needless to say, I am not on the lease anymore and this d-bag lease manager can go about trying to collect his Jr Game Warden badge.


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## EIGHTSKATE (Feb 19, 2016)

Cant believe Warden gave a ticket for that.


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## bluefin (Aug 16, 2005)

I had to look at the pic a couple times to see that extra horn.


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## Dick Hanks (Aug 16, 2007)

It is a shame that you may even have to fork out money for a lawyer in this situation.

Hopefully there will be more good ideas posted on how to get this ticket dropped.

The Wardens wife musta beat him up before he went to work that day.


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

We were nothing but completely contrite and courteous to the GW - never got mouthy at all - honestly, I think he felt like he had to do SOMETHING because the D-bag Lease manager called him out. He's been in SERIOUS hot water with the GW there before and now I think he is trying to over-compensate to try and suck up his way back into their good graces.

The lease manager drove off the next day with his deer meat going home and left the head in the cooler at the lease.
I SHOULD have called the GW on him for that - using his rationale of "just protecting the lease", but decided to be the bigger man and called the manager's cell and stayed there for another hour until he got there to retrieve it.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

I dont think you even need a lawyer. Just show the picture and let the cards fall where they may. The judge is going to dismiss it and apologize to your son.

What a bunch of nonsense. Not sure how you got rolled up in that lease crowd but i would rather take an arse whoopin than put up with that kind of behavior. Im beside myself that even went down....


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

Oh - and the best part - the lease manager tried to tell me that since the GW wrote it up as a buck stead of a cull, that it would count as my trophy buck that year. Can you believe that piece of garbage?


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## salth2o (Sep 21, 2004)

I would think the judge would be understanding in this instance. Looks like two unbranched antlers.


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

The really truly sad part is that every other guy on that lease is a super good guy - two of my REALLY good friends are still on it. 

I got a text, not a call because that would take a backbone, but a text telling me that I would not be invited back to the lease this year, tp come get my RV and personal items.

I think he wanted me gone because the guys still there turned on him for what he did to my son.

I'm very glad to be gone. you will never find more easy to get along with ethical hunters than me and my family. Lesson learned.


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## gbollom (Apr 16, 2012)

Yah sounds like a lease one wouldn't want to be a part of


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## Gasspergoo (Nov 14, 2010)

Much respect to you for not whoopin his arse in front of your son. That guy had one coming for sure!!


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## pipeliner24 (Apr 10, 2013)

sgrem said:


> I dont think you even need a lawyer. Just show the picture and let the cards fall where they may. The judge is going to dismiss it and apologize to your son.
> 
> What a bunch of nonsense. Not sure how you got rolled up in that lease crowd but i would rather take an arse whoopin than put up with that kind of behavior. Im beside myself that even went down....


This


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## blackjack runner (Feb 24, 2015)

So, there is an opening at your hill country deer lease???
jk. 
Sorry it happened to you and your son. Pretty douchy move.


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

Here are two more pics, in the interest of fairness to all involved.


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## sharksurfer66 (Sep 17, 2005)

GW and Manager are both Richards... ruined a good day of hunting for you and your boy. Sorry. Hope it doesn't keep you from getting him back in the field!
Like others said, any hill country judge should let that go.


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## Bayscout22 (Aug 9, 2007)

I agree that this won't require a lawyer. You wouldn't be able to find an honest one who would take it. 

Appear before the judge (taking your son is not a bad idea) and plead. If the judge does anything but throw it out, you can always ask politely for a reset. They may or may not allow you the reset.

Sounds like you are better off without the lease manager in your life.


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## MarkU (Jun 3, 2013)

Unless you know which Judge you're appearing to. I'd have some documentation showing the differences, which prove it was a mistake. You may have to educate the Judge. Hopefully not, but better to be prepared.


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## Black Dog (May 19, 2006)

^^^ that's good advice even if you don't need it.


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## Sgrem (Oct 5, 2005)

Clearly an unbranched antler....

This is stupid now....

I dont understand how the GW would even consider this an issue.


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## al_carl (Jan 20, 2012)

I've seen a couple people mention the hill country. I didn't think any HC counties had antler restrictions. Are you just having to fight it in Austin?


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## SaltwaterSlick (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm thinking by the strictest definition of the regulations "...at LEAST one unbranched antler"... That is a perfectly legal deer. That long "spike" is indeed an unbranched antler. The other "point" is a separate beam. Though not "typical" it fits every definition of an antler bean and not a point on another beam because it is NOT contiguous with either of the other 2 beams. 

I agee your lease manager is a total jerk and karma will get him in some way... The GW too is a jerk, maybe even a bigger jerk than the lease manager. That deer indeed has "at least oneunbranched antler"... that should have been the end of the evaluation right there... That right there makes the deer a legal deer.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

Gasspergoo said:


> Much respect to you for not whoopin his arse in front of your son. That guy had one coming for sure!!


X2. He needed a good old fashion arse whoopin.


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## Dick Hanks (Aug 16, 2007)

Possible things to consider:

Going to the regional TW office and showing the picture to the GW's boss. See what he thinks of the field work his employee is doing. (I would do this). The district Mgr. may destroy your ticket to avoid embarrassing his dept.

You mentioned that this is the lease manager. Do you know who the land owner is? I'd be spending some extra time to track down the owner, explain your situation, and politely try to get the manager fired.

I guess that I am a vindictive old man.


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## Spirit (Nov 19, 2008)

Dick Hanks said:


> Possible things to consider:
> 
> Going to the regional TW office and showing the picture to the GW's boss. See what he thinks of the field work his employee is doing. (I would do this). The district Mgr. may destroy your ticket to avoid embarrassing his dept.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^This!


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## Jolly Roger (May 21, 2004)

the 13" rule has ruined hunting for a lot of people, sucks for you and your son. Hope yall get it worked out for your good.


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

He and the Lease manager go back over 20 years. My complaining to the owner wont do anything.

Just moving on.


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

Dick Hanks said:


> Possible things to consider:
> 
> Going to the regional TW office and showing the picture to the GW's boss. See what he thinks of the field work his employee is doing. (I would do this). The district Mgr. may destroy your ticket to avoid embarrassing his dept.
> 
> ...


This ^^^^ 
That GW needs to go back for continue education ethics class

That lease manager needs a splash of vinager


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

Just wow, I really don't know what else to say. One question though, where are you in the Hill Country that there are antler restrictions?


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

1st - GW is a turd for writing ticket. 2nd mgr is a festering Johnson. Take skull too court/ judge and show it's not a forked antler ( the handbook shows forked ) . And you're a bigger man than me - my kid would have most likely seen how correctly adjust a Johnson. Sorry you have to stress over this.


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## mrsh978 (Apr 24, 2006)

You will be going before Jp in the county where you were cited. Most " country" folk are very understanding and eager to see a parent trying to spend time with kids . GW also may not be the local GW , just covering area


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## Jamaica Cove (Apr 2, 2008)

You and your son should call the judge's clerk and make an appointment to see him to discuss the matter. I think that is your best route. 

As far as the 'lease manager', move on-your son did nothing wrong and the lease manager is a jerk to say the least and explain to your son that the best thing to do is act with integrity and never look back. It already has taught him that many people are going to make problems as he is growing up and revenge only worsens matters. You play with a skunk and you will stink like a skunk.

I applaud you and your son for acting smart and rational-you did very good!!!! Good parenting by you!! WTG!


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

I would love to show the judge the skull but the GW confiscated the animal and wrote me the ticket.


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

Finatic31 said:


> I would love to show the judge the skull but the GW confiscated the animal and wrote me the ticket.


That GW warden has to produce evidence against the accused 
Pictures, ect , 
You can bet your last dollar if it was that 256 b&c poached in Denton county the GW and his boss would both be in. Court to testify so the same standard should apply


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## SaltwaterSlick (Jun 11, 2012)

Oh wow! I bet that GW and his buddies had a feast! That's Soooorrrrrryyy!! Man, talk about adding insult to injury and rubbin' salt in the wound! That would have put me over the edge likely.


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

This JOP is in Georgetown - Williamson County.
Will be interesting to see if the GW even shows up


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## S-3 ranch (May 26, 2004)

Finatic31 said:


> This JOP is in Georgetown - Williamson County.
> Will be interesting to see if the GW even shows up


""In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; ""

That DB game warden has to show up he is bound by law to do so ??
I would hire a attorney to compel both the GW and the guy who called the law " especially the DB manager " to be in court


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## MikeV (Jun 5, 2006)

I would take just the second picture you posted where the low antler blends in with the ear of the buck but not the one that you posted sideways where the low one is more visible.


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## cloudfishing (May 8, 2005)

There is also a civil matter , money spent on lease , lawyer fees and other financial losses. The lease manager could be held liable for some if not all of your costs.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Finatic31 said:


> I would love to show the judge the skull but the GW confiscated the animal and wrote me the ticket.


Who got the ticket, you or your son?


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

> You and your son should call the judge's clerk and make an appointment to see him to discuss the matter. I think that is your best route.


That's what I would do.

TH


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

I got the ticket since my son is only
13. He shot the buck under my guidance.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Talk to the judge and see what he thinks. I'd do it post haste.

TH


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## EIGHTSKATE (Feb 19, 2016)

You might show the pictures to a state game biologist and get their written opinion to present to the judge or JP just incase they are not familiar with regulations.
I would not have given it a second thought that the deer was not legal.
Hope this gets thrown out but I don't think I would go to game wardens supervisors but they would sure hear from me afterwards.


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## BBCAT (Feb 2, 2010)

Contact head GW for the area, explain situation and include picture. Tell them you would like to get this cleared up if possible without going to court. If not contact JP with same info.


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## Lone-Star (Dec 19, 2009)

cloudfishing said:


> There is also a civil matter , money spent on lease , lawyer fees and other financial losses. The lease manager could be held liable for some if not all of your costs.


Yep, i would turn a bulldog lawyer loose on him. Make him waste his time defending his d-baggery.

Also worth having a polite and civil discussion with the GWs superior, if nobody ever complains about legitimate mistreatment then it will continue..


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## 2Ws (Jun 28, 2016)

Plead NOT GUILTY and ask for a jury trial, don't say nothing till your day in court. You don't need a lawyer for this.


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## Muddskipper (Dec 29, 2004)

I would be seeing the lease manager and land owner in court.....

You have to include the land owner since he appointed the lease mgr....

Small claims- based on that being your buck.....ignorance is no excuse....do it after this ticket gets dismissed....


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## Bayscout22 (Aug 9, 2007)

Muddskipper said:


> I would be seeing the lease manager and land owner in court.....
> 
> You have to include the land owner since he appointed the lease mgr....
> 
> Small claims- based on that being your buck.....ignorance is no excuse....do it after this ticket gets dismissed....


This is great advice. I'm sure you had costs associated with joining the lease. They terminated you based on a wrongful seizure of the deer. They caused the seizure to occur.

Interesting article from 2016... There is a scale for determining cost of restitution. That should set the market for they owe you for your deer.

http://www.chron.com/sports/outdoor...rice-to-be-paid-if-you-get-caught-6858432.php

_Some of the most common large civil restitution charges involve deer illegally taken. The civil restitution fee for a buck whitetail starts with a "base" value of $881.50 with the final cost determined by the size of the buck's antlers, based on the Boone and Crockett Club scoring system. A person who illegally takes an especially large antlered buck can see a civil restitution charge of more than $10,000._


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## Stalkin Spots (Jan 12, 2014)

MikeV said:


> I would take just the second picture you posted where the low antler blends in with the ear of the buck but not the one that you posted sideways where the low one is more visible.


Actually, all of the photos are in your favor as they clearly show the additional points originating from the base, not the beam. Therefore the main beam is unbranched making it a spike and not subject to the 13â€ inside spread rule.

The lease manager needs to be run off. As a wildlife biologist, I would have thanked you for passing on the better buck and getting that trash out of the gene pool.


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## Spirit (Nov 19, 2008)

2Ws said:


> Plead NOT GUILTY and ask for a jury trial, don't say nothing till your day in court. You don't need a lawyer for this.


 you might get a jury of non Hunter and they might not know the difference and think think that was a violation


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## fy0834 (Jan 18, 2011)

I asked GW in the command to look at your pic... said it looks legal to him.


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

Yeah and I don’t want to paint a bad picture of this GW. I seriously blame the DBag Lease Manager. I think the GW felt forced to do something because he got called out.
I have had the good fortune of having nothing but positive interactions with GW in the past. There’s a few bad apples everywhere but for my part I have nothing but positive things to say about them


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## fy0834 (Jan 18, 2011)

If you were on a MLD lease you would be a hero/good guy for getting rid of that thing.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

GW should feel zero pressure to â€œdoâ€ anything just because he got â€œcalledâ€ out. If he folds under that pressure from that DB lease manager then he has no business being a GW. 

That deer is clearly legal under AR rules. Definitely agree to fight and file civil against the lease manager and land owner.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

When is your court date?


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## hounddog (Nov 12, 2006)

What county was this in ? like others have mentioned I didn't think AR was in hill country .

Lease manager is still a D-head


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

Court date is April 17
JOP Bill Gravell
Georgetown
Williamson County


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Finatic31 said:


> This JOP is in Georgetown - Williamson County.
> Will be interesting to see if the GW even shows up


The game warden does not have to appear at initial hearing, docket call, or any pre trial hearing, unless subpoenaed. He will have to appear for a trial.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Finatic31 said:


> Court date is April 17
> JOP Bill Gravell
> Georgetown
> Williamson County


What happened? This is April 28.


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## 4 Ever-Fish N (Jun 10, 2006)

I'm like everyone else, you should fight it. Actually saw one of the episodes of Lonestar Law where the GW was called by the shooter/landowner for shooting an undersized buck. It was much like yours, one side of the rack was normal and the other was not. The mature buck had a club foot and limped. Game Warden wrote the guy a warning ticket so he could have the deer processed, etc. I have always thought this 13" rule was stupid. But I don't hunt any more so my opinion doesn't mean much. I really hope you get out of this mess.


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

Yep
My bad
May 17th


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## railbird (Jan 2, 2009)

I hear Williamson county can be a very tough court.


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## scwine (Sep 7, 2006)

railbird said:


> I hear Williamson county can be a very tough court.


Yep. I've heard that too. The stories I've heard from that county make me never want to step foot in it....and I'm sure that's why they are like that are.


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## stdreb27 (Aug 15, 2011)

cloudfishing said:


> There is also a civil matter , money spent on lease , lawyer fees and other financial losses. The lease manager could be held liable for some if not all of your costs.


This!

There are quantifiable damages here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Haute Pursuit (Jun 26, 2006)

railbird said:


> I hear Williamson county can be a very tough court.


If that is the case, I would definately hire a lawyer and subpoena both the GW and lease manager. You probably won't lose. If it is a LE friendly court, you will save on having to file an appeal if you are deadset in getting justice for your son. If not, I would just pay the fine and be happy I was done with that freaking place.


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## JamesAggie (Jun 28, 2012)

Start a GoFundMe me page. I'll contribute. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Rockfish2 (Sep 1, 2017)

Finatic31 said:


> We were nothing but completely contrite and courteous to the GW - never got mouthy at all - honestly, I think he felt like he had to do SOMETHING because the D-bag Lease manager called him out. He's been in SERIOUS hot water with the GW there before and now I think he is trying to over-compensate to try and suck up his way back into their good graces.
> 
> The lease manager drove off the next day with his deer meat going home and left the head in the cooler at the lease.
> I SHOULD have called the GW on him for that - using his rationale of "just protecting the lease", but decided to be the bigger man and called the manager's cell and stayed there for another hour until he got there to retrieve it.


If you get a lawyer and beat the ticket Iâ€™d personally consider suing the lease manager for your legal costs, etc. I think youâ€™ve seen how far being the bigger man has gotten you.:rotfl:


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

SSST said:


> Just wow, I really don't know what else to say. One question though, where are you in the Hill Country that there are antler restrictions?


Assuming he was in Williamson County, it is an AR county starting this last deer season.

Counties that fall under this regulation for the first time include: Bell, Bosque, Bowie, Burleson*, Camp, Cass, Cherokee, Comal (east of IH 35), Comanche, Coryell, Delta, Eastland, Erath, Fannin, Franklin, Gregg, Hamilton, Harrison, Hays (east of IH 35), Hopkins, Houston, Lamar, Lampasas, Leon, Marion, Morris, Nacogdoches, Panola, Rains, Red River, Rusk, Sabine, San Augustine, Shelby, Somervell, Titus, Travis (east of IH 35), Upshur, Williamson
, Wilson, and Wood counties.


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

As much as I would dearly love to go after the Lease Manager, I doubt very seriously I have an actual civil action against him for simply calling the game warden. I will check into it, but I am guessing there’s nothing I can do about a person calling a LEO. It’s up to the GW to make the right call.
At this point it’s about getting out of this stupid ticket and getting the “restitution” money back from the State that I already had to pay.


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## Bassman5119 (Feb 26, 2008)

SaltwaterSlick said:


> I'm thinking by the strictest definition of the regulations "...at LEAST one unbranched antler"... That is a perfectly legal deer. That long "spike" is indeed an unbranched antler. The other "point" is a separate beam. Though not "typical" it fits every definition of an antler bean and not a point on another beam because it is NOT contiguous with either of the other 2 beams.
> 
> I agee your lease manager is a total jerk and karma will get him in some way... The GW too is a jerk, maybe even a bigger jerk than the lease manager. That deer indeed has "at least oneunbranched antler"... that should have been the end of the evaluation right there... That right there makes the deer a legal deer.


The GW should have educated the lease manager on what an unbranched antler is. However, some GW's think crabs need to be 6" wide too (Lone Star Law). We all make mistakes, but we also have a TPWD annual and we can read. I too had to look twice/thrice to see the skin covered non-contiguous horn. I think it's a stretch to expect that young man or the dad to see that bump through a scope or iron sights at any distance. I initially missed it at 2 feet!!!

Fight it and show your Son the process so he knows to Fight when your Right!!


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## Bassman5119 (Feb 26, 2008)

When you win this case and you will, I hope you get your skull back and do a nice European mount with a plate on it naming the buck JUSTICE. Who knows, this might make your Son want to be a GW. I know watching Lone Star Law makes me wish I'd have become one. 

I agree with possibly getting an affidavit from an unbiased Tx Wildlife Biologist. Not sure contacting the GW superior would be productive on a pending case.


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## stdreb27 (Aug 15, 2011)

Finatic31 said:


> As much as I would dearly love to go after the Lease Manager, I doubt very seriously I have an actual civil action against him for simply calling the game warden. I will check into it, but I am guessing thereâ€™s nothing I can do about a person calling a LEO. Itâ€™s up to the GW to make the right call.
> At this point itâ€™s about getting out of this stupid ticket and getting the â€œrestitutionâ€ money back from the State that I already had to pay.


Depending on some facts not really discussed, one could argue that it is negligence for a lease manager not to know game law.


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## Rockfish2 (Sep 1, 2017)

2Ws said:


> Plead NOT GUILTY and ask for a jury trial, don't say nothing till your day in court. You don't need a lawyer for this.


This advice isnâ€™t bad, expect for the you dont need a lawyer part. If you donâ€™t have a lawyer the prosecutor likely will, and frankly should, whip your ***. Part of the ***-whipping will probably include him/her filing motions to exclude certain evidence you want to put on to help your case because it is not admissible under the rules of evidence, etc.

But hopefully youâ€™ll never get to that point because the other advantage of hiring a lawyer is that your lawyer can actually point out to the prosecutor how ridiculous the allegation is - the prosecutor may actually agree and move to dismiss the case. No prosecutor worth a **** will want to waste time with a BS case like this. Whatever you choose, good luck!


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## fishinguy (Aug 5, 2004)

Have you asked the TPWD biologist for their opinion? Should be easy enough to do via email. I would just send the picture with the question and not include any other information.


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## 2Ws (Jun 28, 2016)

Rockfish2 said:


> This advice isnâ€™t bad, expect for the you dont need a lawyer part. If you donâ€™t have a lawyer the prosecutor likely will, and frankly should, whip your ***. Part of the ***-whipping will probably include him/her filing motions to exclude certain evidence you want to put on to help your case because it is not admissible under the rules of evidence, etc.
> 
> But hopefully youâ€™ll never get to that point because the other advantage of hiring a lawyer is that your lawyer can actually point out to the prosecutor how ridiculous the allegation is - the prosecutor may actually agree and move to dismiss the case. No prosecutor worth a **** will want to waste time with a BS case like this. Whatever you choose, good luck!


The ONLY evidence the BOTH of you need is the horns PERIOD. Plead NOT GUILTY request a jury trial...... Seriously doubt it will go to a trial By current law this buck deer has 3 main beams >>>>2 of which has UNBRANCHED ANTLERS, which by law requires>>>1<<< to be UNBRANCHED...you have 2


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## saltwatersensations (Aug 30, 2004)

What is it with lease managers being asshats? Do they not realize that you pay the same as them and have the same rules and regs they do? It amazes me the power trips some people get. Oh, I am a big lease manager.... LOL. Should be easy to beat that. Good luck


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## al_carl (Jan 20, 2012)

Stalkin Spots said:


> As a wildlife biologist, I would have thanked you for passing on the better buck and getting that trash out of the gene pool.


Just to be clear...I would have shot it as well.

But isn't it just as likely that it could have been a damaged pedicle as bad genes? Depending on how old the buck was it would be odd if nobody picked him up in a previous season.


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## fy0834 (Jan 18, 2011)

If your JP hearing doesnâ€™t go your way, I would think you would have a period of time to appeal. 
Lots of times the LE and ( in this case the lease manager) donâ€™t really care what the outcome is. They just put you in court... itâ€™s your job to defeat the charges, which you can.


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## essayons75 (May 15, 2006)

saltwatersensations said:


> What is it with lease managers being asshats? Do they not realize that you pay the same as them and have the same rules and regs they do? It amazes me the power trips some people get. *Oh, I am a big lease manager*.... LOL. Should be easy to beat that. Good luck


Question - does a lease manager have a legal obligation to report game violations? We all have a moral obligation, but if a manager looked at that dear and decided it was legal, which I think it is, then a GW called it illegal, would that be an issue for the lease manager? Just curious.


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## saltwatersensations (Aug 30, 2004)

essayons75 said:


> Question - does a lease manager have a legal obligation to report game violations? We all have a moral obligation, but if a manager looked at that dear and decided it was legal, which I think it is, then a GW called it illegal, would that be an issue for the lease manager? Just curious.


Don't see why it would be anyone's issues except the hunter that took the animal. Not from a legal stand point anyway. I personally would not have called the warden on such a deer. If it were an 11" 8 pt and the lease/county rules were clear from the get go then I would I guess. That way I have legal backing to boot the guy off. I was more stating asshat in general. Attitude, personal pet peeve rules etc. Have experienced it first hand. It was ridiculous. I say there is no way that deer is illegal. Not a branched antler.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Finatic31 said:


> Hi all -
> Does anyone know of a lawyer in or around Austin that has experience with Game Law violations?
> I was given a ticket for an Under 13" Buck that I intend to fight.
> 
> ...


The big question is: Are you willing to investing a few thousand dollars to make a point? I can't say if the deer is legal or not, that one picture you posted really makes it hard to determine. But to hire a lawyer to represent you will cost a pretty penny.

And as far as suing the lease manager, again are you willing to invest a few thousand dollars to have at best a 50/50 chance of "winning"? And what would you win?


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## bg (May 21, 2004)

I've had good results in the past on tickets by calling and talking to the DA, the JP decides whether or not to dismiss it but, before it gets to the hearing, the DA can drop the charges and decline prosecution. I would bet that if you called the DA and emailed him/her the photos along with some evidence to support your position, like the TPWD handbook or even an written opinion from a wildlife biologist, they would do just that.

Once you get to the hearing, it's really just a matter of pleading guilty or not guilty, the judge may or may not ask to see any evidence, in many cases they don't If the DA won't drop the charges I'd plead not guilty at the hearing and ask for a jury trial as previously suggested. 

I'm pretty confident that a conversation with the DA would resolve this in your favor though, so I'd start there. They don't want to waste their time on an obviously bad case anymore than you do.


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## THA (Jan 5, 2016)

All this plus your kid gets to get a first hand experience in how our judicial system works. Make it a good learning experience. Hope it is positive which it should be. He probably has a good idea of how to obey game laws already, now he learns how the system should work to protect him and get an education on how some people are just a di-- head. Maybe he will want to be a lawyer or game warden after this.


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## fy0834 (Jan 18, 2011)

Your kid may be your best witness... the judge can always ask your kid questions if he is there. 
ie; did you shoot the deer thinking it had a spike antler?
did your dad tell you to shoot the deer?
did you believe the deer to be legal / illegal?
Was this your first buck?

If you are representing yourself, I would go for it... you havenâ€™t much to loose.
And yes, good experience for your child.

If you hire a lawyer... you loose, even if you win!!!

I read this years ago and have always followed it in court...
It has never failed me...
Tell the judge /jury; â€œwhat you intend to prove to themâ€
â€œ prove it thru evidence and testimonyâ€
â€œ close by reminding them what you provedâ€


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## fishinguy (Aug 5, 2004)

I am fairly confident that if you were to get the opinion of the biologist in an email and they agree that this is an unbranched antler that you could make an appointment with the persecutor and have the whole thing dismissed without ever going to court. 

Pretty crappy of the GW to do this to a kid IMO.


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## Rockfish2 (Sep 1, 2017)

RB II said:


> GW should feel zero pressure to â€œdoâ€ anything just because he got â€œcalledâ€ out. If he folds under that pressure from that DB lease manager then he has no business being a GW.
> 
> That deer is clearly legal under AR rules. Definitely agree to fight and file civil against the lease manager and land owner.


Yeah, the whole â€œforced to do somethingâ€ thing is total BS.


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## Rockfish2 (Sep 1, 2017)

2Ws said:


> The ONLY evidence the BOTH of you need is the horns PERIOD. Plead NOT GUILTY request a jury trial...... Seriously doubt it will go to a trial By current law this buck deer has 3 main beams >>>>2 of which has UNBRANCHED ANTLERS, which by law requires>>>1<<< to be UNBRANCHED...you have 2


Thatâ€™s my point, the prosecutor can dismiss the case before trial, which is generally better than going to trial, where crazy stuff can happen.


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## Rockfish2 (Sep 1, 2017)

bg said:


> I've had good results in the past on tickets by calling and talking to the DA, the JP decides whether or not to dismiss it but, before it gets to the hearing, the DA can drop the charges and decline prosecution. I would bet that if you called the DA and emailed him/her the photos along with some evidence to support your position, like the TPWD handbook or even an written opinion from a wildlife biologist, they would do just that.
> 
> Once you get to the hearing, it's really just a matter of pleading guilty or not guilty, the judge may or may not ask to see any evidence, in many cases they don't If the DA won't drop the charges I'd plead not guilty at the hearing and ask for a jury trial as previously suggested.
> 
> I'm pretty confident that a conversation with the DA would resolve this in your favor though, so I'd start there. They don't want to waste their time on an obviously bad case anymore than you do.


This, it should work, even in Williamson County.


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## 2Ws (Jun 28, 2016)

stdreb27 said:


> Depending on some facts not really discussed, one could argue that it is negligence for a lease manager not to know game law.


Negligence??? Ours called the GW on me for >>>>trapping<<<<then asked him if was legal.


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## 2Ws (Jun 28, 2016)

A friend of mine who happens to be a GW in E Texas of about 25years said this ticket is TOTAL BS


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## StinkBait (May 31, 2004)

Well, how did it go?


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

I'm curious as well as to how it went.


TH


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## EIGHTSKATE (Feb 19, 2016)

Got everyone all worked up and poof.


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## ChuChu (Jan 23, 2010)

Results?


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## al_carl (Jan 20, 2012)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DCUnger (Jul 25, 2012)

He may have got thrown in jail...


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## StinkBait (May 31, 2004)

DCUnger said:


> He may have got thrown in jail...


Either he is really busy and just stopped in for a second, or things didn't go his way, or we weren't getting the whole story, or he just plain forgot.


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## BullyARed (Jun 19, 2010)

StinkBait said:


> Either he is really busy and just stopped in for a second, or things didn't go his way, or we weren't getting the whole story, or he just plain forgot.


or that GW is taking him out to the wood looking for a deer to make it up!


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

Sorry everyone - not trying to be evasive - logged on the other day to post this and got sidetracked - got a 30 day continuace - Almost resolved - will update ASAP - kinda of the opinion that the less said the better for the moment- small town politics


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

Quick question though - IF YOU KNOW FOR FACT - Does the GW HAVE to keep the actual head in a freezer to produce as evidence if it went to trial or does he just keep pictures and throw the head away?

i.e. - for those of you who know a GW, could you please ask


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Thank you for the update. Sure hope it works out in your favor, it really should.


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## StinkBait (May 31, 2004)

Thanks for the update


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## fy0834 (Jan 18, 2011)

I will ask... 
I have five (5) GW coming to my place this weekend for a squirrel hunt.

LOL... I told them to be sure and have a valid hunting license.


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## fy0834 (Jan 18, 2011)

Answer... typically the head is retained until the matter is resolved


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## fy0834 (Jan 18, 2011)

I always like to have a plan...A, B and even C.

Place this In your plan if you are so inclined;
Tell the JP if he cannot (from the evidence) find the youth not guilty;
You have an offer for the young man to assist this fall (Veterans Day weekend)
In an active duty veterans hunt for ten (10) soldiers. 

The court can call it community service hours.


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## 2Ws (Jun 28, 2016)

He better have the head.


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

The PA is having a hard time tracking down the GW to get his pics - its been a week - hmmmmmm


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

I look forward to giving a FULLLLL report when this is all done - pulling no punches


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## LODI QUACKER (Jun 19, 2012)

dont forget..... new developments?


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## gary.curlin (Apr 11, 2015)

LODI QUACKER said:


> dont forget..... new developments?


See posts 104 thru 107. One of them might apply.

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


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## HoustonKid (Dec 29, 2005)

Finatic31 said:


> Sorry everyone - not trying to be evasive - logged on the other day to post this and got sidetracked - got a 30 day continuace - Almost resolved - will update ASAP - kinda of the opinion that the less said the better for the moment- small town politics


30 day continuance means a few more days?????


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## Finatic31 (Apr 12, 2017)

*Get yer popcorn ready*

OK gents - here goes. 
Ticket was officially dismissed.
I took your advice, called the DA. Showed up for the hearing.
He tells me, we would LIKE to dismiss this right now but we need to hear from the GW to make sure the pics you sent us are the same as he has.
They spoke to him - he admitted that the case was not strong enough to pursue.
They did NOT retain the head.

I got ther GW on the phone - he admitted to me POINT BLANK that the only reason that he wrote me the ticket was because the Lease Manager called him out on it and he felt compelled to err on the side of caution - translation: write the ticket and collect the $$ because he probably wont fight it.

This is a LOOONG story and I will tell it all tomorrow.


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## Ready.Fire.Aim (Sep 22, 2009)

Congratulations!


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## O&G-HAND (Nov 27, 2017)

Canâ€™t wait ta hear â€œthe rest of the storyâ€. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## POC Fishin' Gal (Nov 20, 2009)

Great news! Know you must be relieved to have it settled.


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## RockportRobert (Dec 29, 2006)

:sarcasmStellar work, warden.


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## 18 Hewes (Oct 31, 2006)

Glad you were able to beat the ticket.


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## Mark454 (May 21, 2007)

Glad it worked out for you and thanks for letting us know the outcome.


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## bwguardian (Aug 30, 2005)

Finatic31 said:


> OK gents - here goes.
> Ticket was officially dismissed.
> I took your advice, called the DA. Showed up for the hearing.
> He tells me, we would LIKE to dismiss this right now but we need to hear from the GW to make sure the pics you sent us are the same as he has.
> ...


That individual needs to either be removed from the TPWD force or transfered to another location, and you should take the next step to see to it.


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## WillieT (Aug 25, 2010)

Glad it worked out. Really want to hear â€œthe rest of the story â€œ.


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## al_carl (Jan 20, 2012)

WillieT said:


> Really want to hear â€œthe rest of the story â€œ.


So does this guy


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## fy0834 (Jan 18, 2011)

ðŸ‘


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

Good news. I'd want to be reimbursed for the head that he took and didn't keep. 



They would make you pay restitution so I'd be looking for mine.


TH


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## SaltwaterSlick (Jun 11, 2012)

Trouthunter said:


> Good news. I'd want to be reimbursed for the head that he took and didn't keep.
> 
> They would make you pay restitution so I'd be looking for mine.
> 
> TH


Yea and not to mention the meat too!


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## pocjetty (Sep 12, 2014)

Finatic31 said:


> I got ther GW on the phone - he admitted to me POINT BLANK that the only reason that he wrote me the ticket was because the Lease Manager called him out on it and he felt compelled to err on the side of caution


The GW works for the State of Texas, not the landowner or the lease manager. There is no "side of caution" - there is the law. A GW is supposed to be an expert on that particular set of laws, and a lease manager should be a close second.

For starters, if the GW said those things (not questioning you, I just wasn't there), he's admitted to charging you with a crime without cause. That's an administrative problem, at the very least. I give a lot of latitude toward LEO's doing their jobs. But if one is taking directions from private money, and knowingly perverting the law? That's one thing that shouldn't be excused.

You indicated that you've been kicked off the lease, which you paid for. I'd be interested to know if they sold another lease in your place. If they did, you probably have enough for an abuse of process case.

Note that there was no question about the case being dismissed, so long as your picture was actually the one from the incident. I have a hard time picturing a competent lease manager making an "honest" mistake on something that obvious - but he may be the nephew of the landowner or something. But there is just zero way a GW could have thought that there was a case there. I didn't hear the conversation, but it sounds like the GW didn't make a mistake. He wrote a citation where he knew there wasn't a case. That's an abuse.


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## Bayduck (May 22, 2004)

Trouthunter said:


> Good news. I'd want to be reimbursed for the head that he took and didn't keep.
> 
> They would make you pay restitution so I'd be looking for mine.
> 
> TH


Exactly !


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## fy0834 (Jan 18, 2011)

Life is short... be thankful... move on to a better lease... they are out there.


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## Whitebassfisher (May 4, 2007)

Of all the things that could be said, I will just leave it at "I hope this mess didn't ruin your son's attitude toward appreciating nature and hunting in the future."


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## EIGHTSKATE (Feb 19, 2016)

Did you hire a lawyer or did you handle this on your own with the 2Cool legal advice team?


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## 2Ws (Jun 28, 2016)

Not surprised with the outcome, we had a jerk here to that was transfered from S Tex because of BS tickets. If he would you should go to the LAND OWNER with him and voice your complaint, you could be the new lease manager. Somebody owes you MORE than an apology.


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## LODI QUACKER (Jun 19, 2012)

Come ON MAN! Give us the whole story.... like you said you would... no punches pulled, I think were your words.


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## RB II (Feb 26, 2009)

pocjetty said:


> The GW works for the State of Texas, not the landowner or the lease manager. There is no "side of caution" - there is the law. A GW is supposed to be an expert on that particular set of laws, and a lease manager should be a close second.


Its called CYA and being Politically Correct. That **** is rampant everywhere these days and people, especially those in any public form of business are scared to make a decision without a committee to back them up. Don't want to be singled out so they can be labeled as wrong. RAMPANT in bureaucracies.


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## saltwatersensations (Aug 30, 2004)

One of the worst things to have is an ***** for a lease manager. Spending hard earned cash and time to do something you love just to be micro managed and ridiculed by a guy that is paying the same amount of cash as you. Blows my mind. Little man syndrome or something.... Glad it worked out for you and consider it a blessing and get on somewhere that you can enjoy! Good luck to ya!


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## wfishtx (Apr 10, 2006)

saltwatersensations said:


> One of the worst things to have is an ***** for a lease manager. Spending hard earned cash and time to do something you love just to be micro managed and ridiculed by a guy that is paying the same amount of cash as you. Blows my mind. Little man syndrome or something.... Glad it worked out for you and consider it a blessing and get on somewhere that you can enjoy! Good luck to ya!


x2......I see it all the time volunteering at the Rodeo. You want to talk about little man syndrome; go hang out with a captain for a committee that he/she volunteers for.

As for the OP, I'm not sure I'd give up quite so easily. I'd do what you could to make sure the land owner understands the incompetence of his lease manager and that you are paid in some fashion for what you've had to go through. Don't allow someone else to be treated the way you have.


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## BullyARed (Jun 19, 2010)

Well, the land owner may not care a bit if he has been happy with this manager. He doesn't want to spend his time to find a replacement. If he has people line up to lease his land, he may just say sorry and move on...Unless you can sue the manager and the land owner?


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## texcajun (Feb 22, 2009)

I think a complaint lodged against the game warden would be in order.


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## charlie23 (Jan 11, 2005)

so how many folks actually recommended an attorney so far ?


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## fishinguy (Aug 5, 2004)

I'd file a complaint especially because there is a youth involved. I'm sure this has had a negative impact on this child's desire to go hunting again. Sad that the GW would have handled the situation so poorly and even worse you can not get your deer meat or head for your son.


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## texcajun (Feb 22, 2009)

If this was a "judgement call" on the game wardens behalf, then it was poor judgement. Personally, I would want it known that this particular game wardens "judgement" is compromised.


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## snapperlicious (Aug 11, 2009)

Glad it got dismissed. Stinks you actually had to spend time and money to fight it though.


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## fritz423b (Jun 17, 2016)

"at least one unbranched antler" I think you're good


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## horndale (Jun 24, 2015)

I too wold like to hear "The rest of the story".


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