# 6.7 F250 Opinions



## BluewaterAg26

Guys, Im thinking about buying a F250 with the 6.7 powerstroke. I dont know if I want to go back to the 7.3 or just get the new 6.7. 

I currently have a 6.4 that has been relatively problem free after I did all the mods to it. 

Any opinions or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

Josh


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## boom!

6.7 fo sho.


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## Fordzilla06

They're bada$$. You'll love it. Make the switch.


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## BluewaterAg26

How is the fuel economy compared to the 6.4? My 6.4 sux the fuel, I think my best is 18 on a long road trip.


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## Fordzilla06

Couldn't tell you, I've got 6"s and 37's so not sure about a stocker, but I'm getting around 15 around town, seems to get worse on the highway though I guess it's because of the 75 mph speed limit, I'll usually run 80-85 and that brings me down to around 13.5-14ish. Mines also deleted and tuned.


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## williamcr

I have a buddy of mine that has a 2008 6.4 F350 4X4 crew cab and I have a 2012 FX4 crew can F350 6.7 with 3:55 gears. I am unsure what his gear ratio is but pulling the same load down the same road I get about 3mpg better then him. If that helps
I really like my 6.7 over my 6.0 I think you will like the 6.7. But my 6.0 got the same fuel mileage as my 6.7 


Sent from William's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BluewaterAg26

Awesome, thanks for the help guys. These new trucks are definitely nice.


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## ShadMan

21 highway, 15 city, 17.5 combined is what I get in my 6.7, and I have a heavy foot. For comparison, in my 6.4 I got 18 highway, 12.5 city, 14.5 combined. In my 6.0 I averaged around 16.5. Definitely get the 6.7! I just bought my second one.


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## BluewaterAg26

Shadman, did you have the 3:55 gears? Thats pretty awesome.


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## txwader247

What mods do you have on the 6.4


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## BretE

ShadMan said:


> 21 highway, 15 city, 17.5 combined is what I get in my 6.7, and I have a heavy foot. For comparison, in my 6.4 I got 18 highway, 12.5 city, 14.5 combined. In my 6.0 I averaged around 16.5. Definitely get the 6.7! I just bought my second one.


Amazing!!!!.....Best I ever got was right at 20 and that was filling up in Angleton and running straight highway to Pearland without a heavy foot just to see what I could get. I avg. around 16 hiway and 12-13 in town. Guess I have a really heavy foot.....that being said I do love the new truck, my 2010 got 10 in town......


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## ReelWork

Love mine. Avg 16.6 daily driving. The key is to get it warmed up and seems to get better economy when you don't baby it - rather get up to speed, don't crawl up to speed.


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## ShadMan

ReelWork said:


> Love mine. Avg 16.6 daily driving. The key is to get it warmed up and seems to get better economy when you don't baby it - rather get up to speed, don't crawl up to speed.


I agree! It sounds illogical, but I think I get better fuel economy when I don't baby it. Get up to speed fairly quickly and you seem to save fuel with this motor. I think the sweet spot for fuel economy on the 6.4 is around 72 mph. I like to drive 80-85 on road trips, and get around 19.5 at that speed. At 72-75 is where you'll see 21 mpg, at least in my experience. I didn't/don't have any mods on mine, and have the 3.55 gears. At the time I was hand-calculating, I did about 80/20 highway/city driving. Now I'm around 50/50, so once my new truck is broken in a little (100 miles on it right now  ) I'll try hand calculating it for 5-6 tanks and see if I get similar fuel economy in the new one.

One interesting thing I've found with the 6.7 is that the "lie-o-meter" is closer to accurate than in previous models. When I was hand-calculating my mileage, my actual mileage was almost always exactly .5 mpg less than the computer stated. With my 6.4 my actual would fluctuate as much as 2mpg up or down from the computer.


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## ReelWork

The lie-o-meter is quite accurate. I spoke with a fella who was an engineer for Ford and he knew the systems of the truck pretty well. Anyways, he mentioned about the mileage/economy gauge and how complex it is (and accurate). Being it's a diesel the typical fuel monitoring of what goes in, what's returned, etc doesn't apply. 

He gave me the cliff's notes version of what that team of engineers had to factor in like the measurements of air flow, boost, throttle position, injector pulses, etc and then the wrench in the grinding wheels is the the DPF system and the regens. 

He was quite impressed and now that I've got 35k miles with it, I am too.


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## williamcr

Mine does not seem to want to clean the exhaust filter as much when I run it hard. 


Sent from William's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ReelWork

williamcr said:


> Mine does not seem to want to clean the exhaust filter as much when I run it hard.
> 
> Sent from William's iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly! It's heated up... Mine will reign like crazy in stop and go but hop on the highway or tow and it rarely regens.


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## bobbyoshay

I have a 6.7 and its nice but i find myself missing my old 6.4 sometimes. I went and tried to buy it back but it was already gone. The 6.4 is a beast deleted and set up right. The quietness and improved interior of the 6.7 sold me on it. The nav is better on the 6.7 and the a/c seats are a must.


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## BluewaterAg26

Bobby, yea Im in that situation right now. The truck I have is 2010 with 111k miles and really nice. Ive already spent the money deleting everything. 

What problems are encountered with high mileage 6.4s?


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## bobbyoshay

I don't know of any major problems. Once deleted I've heard they are nearly bulletproof motor and tranny wise. I had small minor things on mine that needed replaced but it was just the right time to get rid of it money wise. I was at the point to sell it or keep it for the long haul. Seeing that the dealership gave me almost what I paid for it two years prior it was a no brainer. Wanted to delete the 6.7 but missed out on reasonably priced tuners. If I could do it all over again I think I would have kept the 6.4 since it was nearly paid off. I guess it depends on the trim you are going with and what you must have. If you are keeping it a simple truck I would stay 6.4 but if you are going w a loaded KR it makes it a tougher decision.


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## ShadMan

I did an 80 mile highway drive in my brand new 6.7 and the Lie-O-Meter showed 18.9mpg. Not as good as my last truck, but then again I only have 250 miles on the new truck. Hopefully it'll improve to where my 2011 was as it breaks in.


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## ShadMan

Just as an update to this thread, after 12k miles I'm averaging 19.5 highway and 16.7 overall with 60% or so highway driving. Not as good as my last truck, but not terrible either. The drop in fuel economy may be due to the 300lb 5th wheel hitch that stays in the bed of my truck or that my last vehicle was a CTS-V and my foot remains heavy on the go pedal.  

I got 13.1 towing my ~12k 5th wheel travel trailer from Houston to Kerrville, and 14.1 towing my boat from Tuscaloosa, AL to Houston. Surprisingly, the boat is well under 1/2 the weight of my fiver, and the fuel economy wasn't much better. I guess the boat has significantly more wind drag than the big fiver?? Or it could be that there are lots of hills in AL & MS, and cruise control sucks fuel going uphill, then sometimes downshifts you from 6 to 5 going downhill to maintain your speed where you set it...


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## txjustin

BluewaterAg26 said:


> Bobby, yea Im in that situation right now. The truck I have is 2010 with 111k miles and really nice. Ive already spent the money deleting everything.
> 
> What problems are encountered with high mileage 6.4s?


111k miles is high for a diesel?? sad3sm


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## bobbyoshay

lol......im happy that i have left this truck stock so far. Just a shade under 30k miles and its in the shop for a new fuel pump. Got a nice message last night and again this morning that read "Reduced Engine Power."


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## CKALLTHEWAY

I work at Gulf Coast Ford in Angleton if any one reading this post would like to come take one of these new 6.7's for a spin or would like a price on one shoot me a pm !!!


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## MapMaster

I bought a 2011 Deleted and Tuned a few months ago and I am amazed at the power this truck has. My last diesel was a 7.3 that was truly bullet proof but the twin turbo whine is really cool on my 6.7. I haven't pulled anything more than my bay boat or a couple of trees on a low-boy yet but there is a 5th wheel in the future.


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## Slimshady

ReelWork said:


> Love mine. Avg 16.6 daily driving. The key is to get it warmed up and seems to get better economy when you don't baby it - rather get up to speed, don't crawl up to speed.


Purchased a new 6.7 four weeks ago and began to think I was crazy seeing better mileage driving hard. Guess I'm not the only one. Have around 3.5k on it already and averaging 15.5 right now with mixed driving. Hope to see it improve.


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## bobbyoshay

MapMaster said:


> I bought a 2011 Deleted and Tuned a few months ago and I am amazed at the power this truck has. My last diesel was a 7.3 that was truly bullet proof but the twin turbo whine is really cool on my 6.7. I haven't pulled anything more than my bay boat or a couple of trees on a low-boy yet but there is a 5th wheel in the future.


6.7 is a single turbo. The 08-10 had twins.


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## DSL_PWR

bobbyoshay said:


> 6.7 is a single turbo. The 08-10 had twins.


Actually the 6.4 had a compound-turbo system. Yes two turbos were used but in connection.

Difference..... With twin, 1 turbo for each side 4 cyl of motor. Dual.... one is for slower speed 2nd for higher.


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## BluewaterAg26

Are ya'll having any problems with the 6.7s any at all?


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## CKALLTHEWAY

since they have came out I have had 2 customers that had a hard shift problem and then I had the same issue with mine all 3 trucks were 2011 early job 1 builds. The problem was solved with a re program to the transmission. Other than that no issues at all and I have 70,000 on my 2011 F350 and I sell between 5-10 diesels a month and have since they came out in 2011. This is by for the best engine Ford has put out. This is an all ford built engine unlike the 7.3,6.0,and 6.4 were built by NAVAstar. Ford made sure long before the debut of the 6.7 that it would not be a troubled engine.


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## Reel Cajun

*6.7*

I just had an exhaust temp sensor short out over night parked in the driveway, wouldn't start and had to have it towed to the dealership the next morning. While I was there I was informed that my radiator is leaking at the crimp on the drivers side about 6-8" up from the bottom, and its only covered to 36,000 miles and I'm at 46,500. I had this same problem with 2-radiators in my 2008 F250, I love my truck, but how much does Ford need to charge for a truck to figure out how to not have a radiator problem? And I guess it's my fault somehow, that's why I need to pay for it and the warranty won't cover it?


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## goodwood

call the ford 1800 service line for radiator problems. tell them your story. be nice but a little annoyed of course. first person will probably say no. ask to speak with a supervisor. 

if that doesnt work performance radiator makes one for the 67. it has a 3 year warranty versus 1 year 12k miles with ford.


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## sotexhookset

Reel Cajun said:


> I just had an exhaust temp sensor short out over night parked in the driveway, wouldn't start and had to have it towed to the dealership the next morning. While I was there I was informed that my radiator is leaking at the crimp on the drivers side about 6-8" up from the bottom, and its only covered to 36,000 miles and I'm at 46,500. I had this same problem with 2-radiators in my 2008 F250, I love my truck, but how much does Ford need to charge for a truck to figure out how to not have a radiator problem? And I guess it's my fault somehow, that's why I need to pay for it and the warranty won't cover it?


Exact same thing happened to a 12' F450 I bought used with 30k on it at he beginning of the year. Three times at dealer in three months. First was a recall on be turbo. A few weeks back they blew a seal on the turbo but warranties again but very next day had that crew in north austin (2hours awa from our yard) and no start late in day to come home. Free tow through ford to nearest dealer which was Covert ford or something and was able to get a half ton rental right at six oclock to get the guys home. Fast forward four more days and cost of the rental truck (ford would not cover so I was ******) and an $800 bill for a $100 part that was not warrantied and I'm super ******. That truck was not made to pull as our one ton Chevys out pull the chit out of that thing . Looks good but that's it. Done with them and I'm a ford guy personally but again not for my work trucks. Lookin at the chebbys again. So if anyone is looking for a 450 white crew cab with a state bed, 2k of new rubber last month, automatic, tinted windows, cd changer and LEDs installed for 33k let me know. About 50k miles on it I believe.


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## Friendswoodmatt

I heard they have had alot of turbo problems in the cab and chassis models. I just bought a 2012 6.7-- hopefully it will be a great truck. I am seeing about 15.5 mpg


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## oOslikOo

bobbyoshay said:


> lol......im happy that i have left this truck stock so far. Just a shade under 30k miles and its in the shop for a new fuel pump. Got a nice message last night and again this morning that read "Reduced Engine Power."


To get to the fuel pump the cab has to be taken off correct?


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## ReelWork

oOslikOo said:


> To get to the fuel pump the cab has to be taken off correct?


No, that was with the 6.0 and 6.4.


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## ShadMan

sotexhookset said:


> That truck was not made to pull as our one ton Chevys out pull the chit out of that thing . Looks good but that's it. Done with them and I'm a ford guy personally but again not for my work trucks. Lookin at the chebbys again.


Don't know what's wrong with yours, but they need to look at it again. I've towed my 5th wheel with both my Ford and a comparably equipped Chevy, and I had the opposite experience. My Ford tows MUCH better than the Chevy. Maybe your Ford has a really tall rear end in it for better fuel economy??


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## BluewaterAg26

Are these issues that are being discussed covered under warranty? Why so many turbo failures, maybe pulling heavy loads? 

The only issue I have had with my 2010 6.4 is changing a radiator.


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## ReelWork

BluewaterAg26 said:


> Are these issues that are being discussed covered under warranty? Why so many turbo failures, maybe pulling heavy loads?
> 
> The only issue I have had with my 2010 6.4 is changing a radiator.


Yes, typically covered under warranty unless there's evidence of tampering where Ford or the dealership can deny coverage.

Most of the turbo issues I have read about were with early 2011's, primarily chassis cabs and the problem seems to revolve with a combination of high heat, oil flow and/or balance of the spindle (i.e. lack of).


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## BluewaterAg26

Ok thanks. What is a realistic fuel economy for a F250 w/3:55 rear end?


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## ReelWork

My F-250 CC, FX4 3.55 is averaging 16 MPG on daily commute - 15.9 a/o this morning. When the temps are in the 80's, climbs a tad 16.3-16.5 average (18-20 hwy) which might be due to reduced regens. In the winter economy is pretty good on long hauls (17-19 Hwy) but daily driving and short trips drop MPG to around 15.5 due to the increased warm-up time and extra fuel.


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## BluewaterAg26

Thanks for the comments guys. Im still on the fence about purchasing a new truck, I like my 6.4 but I really like the new trucks also. Any opinions about the longevity of either?


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## CKALLTHEWAY

I put 187,000 on my 2008 6.4 with no major work at all. Just in the shop one time for a rear power window and once for the radiator recall and one other emissions recall. My 6.7 has right at 70k and only one issue with a hard shift and it was fixed with a reprogram.


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## bobbyoshay

The lovely "reduced engine power" light came on again tonight. Hope they get it fixed tomorrow because I need my truck this weekend!


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## Slimshady

Not to derail the subject, just curious how many miles y'all are going between oil changes and are you trusting the oil life monitor? Also, what are y'all running for oil? Seems to be all over the board from 5-40 to 15-40 standard, semi synthetic, and even Mobile 1.


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## CKALLTHEWAY

I use 15-40 standard and change it every 7500 miles


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## g2outfitter

Has any one heard of reduced fuel mileage after first oil change at dealer. My self and two other guys both have experienced this issue. Drive off lot getting 21 plus mpg go to dealer for first free oil change and now best I can get is 17. 2012 f250. I know it sounds crazy but have read other forums where it was unexplained. Truck has 15k miles on it. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


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## bobbyoshay

Slimshady said:


> Not to derail the subject, just curious how many miles y'all are going between oil changes and are you trusting the oil life monitor? Also, what are y'all running for oil? Seems to be all over the board from 5-40 to 15-40 standard, semi synthetic, and even Mobile 1.


As soon as the oil life monitor tells me its time to change i take it in. I let ford do everything and put in whatever they recommend. Hopefully since they have all the records they wont try to void any warranty work since they have taken care of everything.

My tactic might change though. They are now saying that my HPFP could be to blame for my "reduced engine power" light. They are currently running the tests. Had the same code thrown again last night that they fixed last wednesday as well as an additional code. Ford and myself are not seeing eye to eye as of right now.


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## Slimshady

Dealer quote $89.99 for 13qts. of Motorcraft blend and filter at 10k mile intervals or less with frequent heavy pulling. $90 is fine but sounded like a lot of miles compared to 5-6K I've always run on our last two Cummins.


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## bobbyoshay

Just got the call from ford.....and it's the hpfp. They still are running tests to see if their are any contaminants in the system. I know I haven't screwed anything up (like putting def in wrong hole) so it should be good but ford voiding warranties over this has me ready to rumble. Without my truck until atleast Monday and they did not have a loaner truck for me. I just rolled over 30,170 miles on the way to dealership. The 2014's are starting to look better everyday


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## goodwood

Slimshady said:


> Dealer quote $89.99 for 13qts. of Motorcraft blend and filter at 10k mile intervals or less with frequent heavy pulling. $90 is fine but sounded like a lot of miles compared to 5-6K I've always run on our last two Cummins.


That's not a bad price for a dealer oil change.

Change your oil filter at 5k miles if you plan to go near 10k miles per oil change. It'll keep your insolubles down.

Only way to really know how your oil is doing is to have a sample tested. It'll reveal wear metals, contaminants, and condition of the oil.

Most trucks that run a DPF will have fuel in the oil and that's not good.


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## ReelWork

bobbyoshay said:


> Just got the call from ford.....and it's the hpfp. They still are running tests to see if their are any contaminants in the system. I know I haven't screwed anything up (like putting def in wrong hole) so it should be good but ford voiding warranties over this has me ready to rumble. Without my truck until atleast Monday and they did not have a loaner truck for me. I just rolled over 30,170 miles on the way to dealership. The 2014's are starting to look better everyday


Dude, that sucks - I guess just after I saw you the light came on?


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## bobbyoshay

ReelWork said:


> Dude, that sucks - I guess just after I saw you the light came on?


Went dove hunting and got rained out after a few birds. Left the farm to go to Goerke's and get some dinner and it threw the code. Not happy about my situation, extremely glad I have another ride, and BB has had the asss jumped a few times today. It's not 100% their fault bc some blame goes to ford but its still bs.


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## SouthCoastMudder

I have a 12 250 crew cab, short bed with 3.31's and best I have honestly seen out of the lie-o-meter is around 18.5 on an all hwy road trip, I get around 15-16.5 day to day with a good bit of city driving. I have 20k on it now, the only issue I have had was a urea heater which caused a check engine light, the dealer couldn't give me a loaner vehicle and I didn't take it back for the repair and the light went off after a few thousand miles. I have a number of buddies running them with from 10k-80k miles all on 2012's and the only problem I have seen consistently is the pull over safely message and shutting off over a exhaust temperature sensor which will leave you stranded for around 30 minutes. I do hate worrying about that but I LOVE my truck. Major improvement over the 7.3's, 6.0's, and 6.4's.


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## FishOnOne

bobbyoshay said:


> Went dove hunting and got rained out after a few birds. Left the farm to go to Goerke's and get some dinner and it threw the code. Not happy about my situation, extremely glad I have another ride, and BB has had the asss jumped a few times today. It's not 100% their fault bc some blame goes to ford but its still bs.


Good luck with this repair. Ford has been known to void the warranty on the HPFP repair and uses the "contaminated fuel" for denial.


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## bobbyoshay

FishOnOne said:


> Good luck with this repair. Ford has been known to void the warranty on the HPFP repair and uses the "contaminated fuel" for denial.


Yep.....i knew that going into this. I knew something wasnt right as soon as the "reduced engine power" notification came on for the second time within a week. Ford voiding the warranty was the main reason i held off purchasing the truck for over a year but it got to the point of having to get a new, more dependable ride.

The main reason my service man at the dealership says the warranties are voided are due to people putting the def into the fuel tank. He said that i shouldnt have anything to worry about and they wont deny it if that isnt the case. They should give me an answer tomorrow morning.


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## yakPIRATE

Anyone know about this coolant additive check?
Got the message around 50k.


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## ReelWork

yakPIRATE said:


> Anyone know about this coolant additive check?
> Got the message around 50k.


Comes on every 10-15k miles if I recall (based in driving habits??) It's a reminder to check the coolant PH level and can be reset in the menu --> settings, maintenance, coolant.

The warning has either come on before and/or the dealer reset the timer during regular maintenance.


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## yakPIRATE

ReelWork said:


> Comes on every 10-15k miles if I recall (based in driving habits??) It's a reminder to check the coolant PH level and can be reset in the menu --> settings, maintenance, coolant.
> 
> The warning has either come on before and/or the dealer reset the timer during regular maintenance.


I've read that it is a two part kit. I called dealer and they seemed to have no idea what I was talking about.
I did reset without checking it . I'd like to get the kit though.

Side story. The dealership also said there is no touch up paint for the interior. (Little spot on steering wheel just below controls) and that did have to buy a new steering wheel. 
I laughed and walked out.


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## Bohica77

I have a 2011 f350 with thw 6.7. I pull a 53' wedge with 3 cars to Dallas and back to Houston. Monday thru Friday. Have been making this run for almost 2 years. Truck has almost 175 k on it. No major problems. Idler pulley went out. Fantastic engine and truck. 
With a big load gets about 9 to 10.5 mpg. Empty gets between 16 to 18.


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## Worm Drowner

I guess I have the best of both worlds. I have a 2011 F350 with the 6.7 that I just bought August 5th and I also have a 1996 F250 with the 7.3 that has 211k miles and is in great shape. Even though I have done the downpipe/exhaust & intake and put a tuner on the 7.3, the power of the 6.7 is amazing in comparison. The only gripe I have is the mileage on the 7.3 runs 15-17.5 and the 6.7 runs 13.5-15.25.


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## boom!

yakPIRATE said:


> I've read that it is a two part kit. I called dealer and they seemed to have no idea what I was talking about.
> I did reset without checking it . I'd like to get the kit though.


I haven't found a dealer that has a PH test kit. I just had my coolant flushed and changed at 38K.


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## bobbyoshay

YIKES! Just got off the phone with the dealership where my truck is at. The whole fuel system has to be replaced due to contamination. Will be without it for atleast a week but most likely 2 weeks. They have 2 trucks in front of mine that need the same treatment so im guessing it is more common than i first thought. No word yet if they are covering it under warranty but ive already started looking at new rides just in case it isnt.


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## BluewaterAg26

I had a HPFP replaced on my 6.4 under warranty.


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## bobbyoshay

BluewaterAg26 said:


> I had a HPFP replaced on my 6.4 under warranty.


Its the whole system. Injectors, all fuel lines and pumps......everything that is associated with fuel has to be replaced. I straight up asked him if it was gonna be covered under warranty and he couldnt give me an answer. He said that he thinks that ford might cover some of it but they are still trying to work it out. I cant fathom a way that they can deny warranty work that was not caused by anything that i have done and just a "flaw" in their own designed system. That dealership might have just received a new to them trade in. I just dont know which route to go from here. I def will not do a gm or cant see of a way for me to go dodge.


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## Profish00

contamination, sounds like you got some bad fuel.


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## g2outfitter

Send the bill to Obama. Since crappy fuel is his fault. I'm sure you will be fine on warranty. There has to be a darn good reason why ford doesn't cover warranty work. They are a good company and want to keep it that way.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


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## bobbyoshay

Profish00 said:


> contamination, sounds like you got some bad fuel.


i have purchased fuel only at the high flow places and have been getting it from the same places for years.

Shouldnt the multiple filters and whatnot stop it from spreading though? The contamination was metal fragments according to them......which sounds like it coming apart from the inside out to me. It could get sporty


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## goodwood

Wish you lots of luck bobby. I hope they don't give you too much he77.


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## ShadMan

goodwood said:


> That's not a bad price for a dealer oil change. .


Planet Ford offers 4 diesel oil changes for $194, or around $48 each.  At the Humble location they have a Quick Lane facility, so they knock it out in about 30 minutes.


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## bobbyoshay

goodwood said:


> Wish you lots of luck bobby. I hope they don't give you too much he77.


I talked to the tech yesterday at closing time when they finally got me a loaner. He said that he hasnt seen anything yet for ford to deny the warranty claim. He said the majority of denials are due to people putting the def into the actual diesel tank instead of the def tank. There was one truck in front of me that was covered under warranty that was almost completed. He gave me higher hopes. He said the main test is for them to pull the filters, put out in the sun for a few hours, and wait to see if it crystallizes.

I wont take this easily if they try to deny their system is at fault.


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## FishOnOne

bobbyoshay said:


> I talked to the tech yesterday at closing time when they finally got me a loaner. He said that he hasnt seen anything yet for ford to deny the warranty claim. He said the majority of denials are due to people putting the def into the actual diesel tank instead of the def tank. There was one truck in front of me that was covered under warranty that was almost completed. He gave me higher hopes. He said the main test is for them to pull the filters, put out in the sun for a few hours, and wait to see if it crystallizes.
> 
> I wont take this easily if they try to deny their system is at fault.


Hopefully they don't find any DEF crystals or rust on the reg. that is removed from the HPFP for inspection. If any of these issues are found, Fords procedure is to stop any further work on the truck and to contact the owner that the warranty has been voided.

Good luck...


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## bobbyoshay

FishOnOne said:


> Hopefully they don't find any DEF crystals or rust on the reg. that is removed from the HPFP for inspection. If any of these issues are found, Fords procedure is to stop any further work on the truck and to contact the owner that the warranty has been voided.
> 
> Good luck...


But it would have to be a failure of their system in some way.

I know I have never put def in the wrong hole. I know this because I purchase 2 2.5 jugs right before I fill the tank. I fill the tank until it overflows. It would never overflow if I were to put it in the wrong tank bc I rarely have a full tank of diesel bc the pumps shut me off at $75.

The rust that you speak of would also show their system failed. Rust would be caused by water bypassing their filters I'm guessing. No water in fuel light or anything has come on.

My saving grace might be the truck going in the previous week and them replacing one of the pumps. If it were to have been def they would have seen it crystallize during the time they did the first pump. I hope and pray it doesn't get ugly


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## ReelWork

RC, thinking this will go warranty and nothing lost but your time (and perhaps confidence in the truck)...


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## yakPIRATE

Are you using the nozzle to fill def tank? Or a funnel


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## ReelWork

yakPIRATE said:


> Are you using the nozzle to fill def tank? Or a funnel


The 2.5 gallon boxes come with a flexi-hose that fits into the smaller DEF hole perfectly. It's the only way to go.

You gotta be really complacent or deliberate to put DEF into the fuel tank...


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## bobbyoshay

ReelWork said:


> RC, thinking this will go warranty and nothing lost but your time (and perhaps confidence in the truck)...


The truck has been great up to this point. I wouldn't hesitate in purchasing again. Once this is fixed with the new parts I think it will be good to go. I will clarify the warranty and make sure it is in writing before I leave the dealership. Talked with the tech this morning and they have one more test that is being performed this afternoon but according to him there is no way ford can deny it with what he has seen up to this point.



ReelWork said:


> The 2.5 gallon boxes come with a flexi-hose that fits into the smaller DEF hole perfectly. It's the only way to go.
> 
> You gotta be really complacent or deliberate to put DEF into the fuel tank...


Yep......I personally don't see how people could screw it up but they do. I think from here on I will take it to BB to have them fill the DEF. There will be no absolute way they could ever void any warranty since they would be the only one that touches it.


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## CORNHUSKER

:brew:


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## Copano/Aransas

O no you guys are doomed now. LOL


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## CORNHUSKER

Copano/Aransas said:


> O no you guys are doomed now. LOL


:biggrin:


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## bobbyoshay

you are doing it wrong corn....you are suppose to have your mirrors flipped up. It gives you atleast 30 extra horsepower. 

No way in hell you would catch me in a goat


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## goodwood

If it werent for antitrust laws and cummins's stake in daimler, ford would be powered by a cummins diesel. Ford would rule the world in light to medium duty diesels. Oh yeah international how the heck do you mess up that kinda deal with ford?

Anyways cummins owns just about every big brand diesel manufacturer or at least has a large stake in it including cat, navistar, isuzu and of course daimler chrysler ultimately- dodge. I probably have to re-check my facts but im going with this for now. 

Anyways dodge is gonna have to do more than put a king ranch knock off interior in the cab to put me in a ram.


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## CKALLTHEWAY

For a true Truck person, a person who uses and abuses there truck in the way it was meant to be used, Any of the newer Doges are never gonna be an option. Not knocking The Cummins engine one bit, But the wrapper it comes in.
CK


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## ShadMan

I let the dealer fill my DEF when they change my oil. I think it's $15 or so for the DEF itself and they don't charge anything to pour it in. Like said above, if they ever say DEF went in the wrong hole, it's not going to be my problem.


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## FishOnOne

bobbyoshay said:


> But it would have to be a failure of their system in some way.
> 
> I know I have never put def in the wrong hole. I know this because I purchase 2 2.5 jugs right before I fill the tank. I fill the tank until it overflows. It would never overflow if I were to put it in the wrong tank bc I rarely have a full tank of diesel bc the pumps shut me off at $75.
> 
> The rust that you speak of would also show their system failed. Rust would be caused by water bypassing their filters I'm guessing. No water in fuel light or anything has come on.
> 
> My saving grace might be the truck going in the previous week and them replacing one of the pumps. If it were to have been def they would have seen it crystallize during the time they did the first pump. I hope and pray it doesn't get ugly


Ford's position for warranty denial has always been for contaminated fuel. And for this reason like yourself many have questioned why doesn't the fuel filtration system prevent water from getting to the HPFP. The owner of the diesel site had his CP4.2 HPFP fail and Ford voided his warranty for fuel contamination so he designed his own filtration system. http://www.dieselsite.com/dieselsite2011-20012ford67lfuelfilterwaterseparator.aspx


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## CORNHUSKER

bobbyoshay said:


> you are doing it wrong corn....you are suppose to have your mirrors flipped up. It gives you atleast 30 extra horsepower.
> 
> No way in hell you would catch me in a goat


The guys with the mirrors flipped up is funny.

I used to say the same thing until 2005 and Ford product was ****, then in 2010 and Ford product was still **** and now in 2013 sounds like Ford product is still ****.

3 goats and they just keep on going!!!


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## saltwatersensations

Cornhusker is passionate about goats.


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## oOslikOo

CORNHUSKER said:


> The guys with the mirrors flipped up is funny.
> 
> I used to say the same thing until 2005 and Ford product was ****, then in 2010 and Ford product was still **** and now in 2013 sounds like Ford product is still ****.
> 
> 3 goats and they just keep on going!!!


my one and only ford was absolute garbage....literally gave it away. Got 2 buddies that are ford guys, last time i saw them they were both looking to dump theirs. one was an ecoboost that was in and out shop. guy down the road from my inlaws is a one man hot shot.....he USED to run fords and listening to him talk about fords over a couple beers is first class entertainment. he runs goats now.....speaking of which I was on a job accross the country and had a hot shot brought in (this was in June)....guy had a brand new goat with 12k on it. back here on the Texas coast 2 days ago i see him again, and hes got 87k on it now no issues. i imagine that truck has had a 40 ft gooseneck hooked up to for just about all those miles. that first trip took 2 drivers and was a non stop trip.....trailer weighed in at a hair over 15,000lbs.


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## DUTY FIRST

If adding DEF to your fuel tank will ruin your engine and void your warranty, I'm thinking it would be a good idea to buy a locking fuel filler cap, or locking fuel door. If someone really wanted to mess you up by vandalizing your truck, what better way to do it?

That way if there was evidence it had been vandalized, like pry marks on the cap, your insurance would cover the damage as vandalism. 

Of course if you could convince your insurance adjuster that someone had vandalized it, even in absence of evidence of forced entry, you may be able to get it covered. 

OR, failing that, if someone (spouse, child, even yourself ), stupidly, accidently and without deliberate intent, poured the DEF into the fuel, it would still be a sudden and accidental loss, and most insurance companies would cover it. It should be covered under your Comprehensive (Other Than Collision) coverage, subject to your deductible. As long as it was not a deliberate act on your part (meaning you knew the damage it would cause and did it anyway) and it is not due and confined to electrical or mechanical breakdown or failure (which would not be the case). Naturally you would want to notify your insurance company so they can inspect the damage before it is repaired.

Yes, your insurance policy provides coverage for stupidity.

As a retired insurance claim executive, I do not suggest anyone submit a fraudulent claim, but you SHOULD take advantage of insurance coverage if it is legitimate.


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## SKAggie34

*2012 f250*

I have a 2012 Crew Cab 6.7 4x4 with 47k miles on it now. Running 295/60 Nitto Trail grapplers and 20R factory wheels --- Here is my experience so far:

- Bought the truck in June 2012 with 10k miles on it. Came with DPF delete and XRT tuner.

- On the highway I was seeing 19-21mpg doing 70-75 with lite winds and not loaded. But this was with factory tires and wheels.

- When I put on the Nitto's there was a decrease in mpg to 17-18mpg

- at 43k miles I blew a turbo while accelerating with offshore boat hooked up.
- I put exhaust back on and removed the tuner before taking to Ford.
- Ford covered the work and replacement on the turbo
- EGR sensor needed to be replaced as well (showing check engine light)
- Ford wanted to recalabrate the system while it was in the shop but couldnt because apparently the tuner was still showing in the PCM although it was removed... Called some friends and they said it just needs to flashed. I never flashed it nor re-calibrated it.

- Oil changes every 7-8k miles or so. and Fuel filters when the computer tells me to do it.

- I lost my mpg lately and now down to 14-15mpg on the highway. I have the XRT tuner back in on the middle setting but the exhaust system is still back to factory. Going to change oil and fuel filter today to see if it helps.

- My transmission shifts funny though between 1st and 3rd gear every now and then. Sometimes it doesnt want to shift from 1st to 2nd. I am going to try removing the tuner and see how it works without it. Then I will get the tuner updates and re-install to see if it changes anything.
- Was told that the transmission has a memory in it and it adjust to your driving habits. There is a way to start fresh but I think FORD has to do it or a Tuner can do it.

*** Besides the turbo issue and transmission concerns. I love the truck. The power, the ride, the luxury is great. Every now and then I will pull a 39' Center Consol from Port O'Connor to Victoria. I never know its back there. The boat, motor, trailer, and fuel is estimated around 16-17k lbs.

I'll let you guys know if my fuel economy gets back up.

rgrds
James


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## wellconnected

CORNHUSKER said:


> The guys with the mirrors flipped up is funny.
> 
> I used to say the same thing until 2005 and Ford product was ****, then in 2010 and Ford product was still **** and now in 2013 sounds like Ford product is still ****.
> 
> 3 goats and they just keep on going!!!


LOL...My goat does nothing but nibble at my wallet!!! I have a love/hate relationship with my truck. Cummins = best diesel motor ever produced for a truck. The rest of the dodge truck = the worst POS I have ever owned. Ok back to your regular Ford 6.7 discussion!


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## CORNHUSKER

oOslikOo said:


> my one and only ford was absolute garbage....literally gave it away. Got 2 buddies that are ford guys, last time i saw them they were both looking to dump theirs. one was an ecoboost that was in and out shop. guy down the road from my inlaws is a one man hot shot.....he USED to run fords and listening to him talk about fords over a couple beers is first class entertainment. he runs goats now.....speaking of which I was on a job accross the country and had a hot shot brought in (this was in June)....guy had a brand new goat with 12k on it. back here on the Texas coast 2 days ago i see him again, and hes got 87k on it now no issues. i imagine that truck has had a 40 ft gooseneck hooked up to for just about all those miles. that first trip took 2 drivers and was a non stop trip.....trailer weighed in at a hair over 15,000lbs.


Ford used to have a great one ton diesel product. 1996, 1997, 2000 and 2001 were all great trucks and we put a lot of miles on them. The 6.blow was the beginning of the end and seems they just can't get it right.


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## ShadMan

CORNHUSKER said:


> Ford used to have a great one ton diesel product. 1996, 1997, 2000 and 2001 were all great trucks and we put a lot of miles on them. The 6.blow was the beginning of the end and seems they just can't get it right.


I haven't seen many people saying that they didn't get it right with the '11-current models. Awesome truck! A Dodge will always be just a Dodge - a means for poor and ignorant people to own a diesel. 

BTW, Dodges require DEF also, ya know? All diesel trucks have to have it now thanks to those POS Dodges rolling coal every time you touch the accelerator. Makes the libtards think all diesels are dirty polluters, when really it's just Dodges.


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## oOslikOo

ShadMan said:


> I haven't seen many people saying that they didn't get it right with the '11-current models. Awesome truck! A Dodge will always be just a Dodge - a means for poor and ignorant people to own a diesel.
> 
> BTW, Dodges require DEF also, ya know? All diesel trucks have to have it now thanks to those POS Dodges rolling coal every time you touch the accelerator. Makes the libtards think all diesels are dirty polluters, when really it's just Dodges.


i would think it had more to do with 18 wheelers and such.


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## CORNHUSKER

ShadMan said:


> I haven't seen many people saying that they didn't get it right with the '11-current models. Awesome truck! A Dodge will always be just a Dodge - a means for poor and ignorant people to own a diesel.
> 
> BTW, Dodges require DEF also, ya know? All diesel trucks have to have it now thanks to those POS Dodges rolling coal every time you touch the accelerator. Makes the libtards think all diesels are dirty polluters, when really it's just Dodges.


You just removed all doubt!!!


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## bobbyoshay

It's the young crowd that likes to roll coal. Look at this douchenozzle's tip


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## ShadMan

Young = poor and ignorant = Dodge driver


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## sotexhookset

bobbyoshay said:


> It's the young crowd that likes to roll coal. Look at this douchenozzle's tip


Lol. Dam that's ugly.


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## bobbyoshay

sotexhookset said:


> Lol. Dam that's ugly.


You could fit a basketball in it. It was massive. The exhaust system was 4" that opened to atleast a 10-12" tip. All I could do was laugh as he drove away. He had to constantly blip the accelerator to try to be cool. The pic doesn't do it justice


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## ReelWork

Guessing that's Bucee's - where I most often see guys in their late teens and early 20's driving Dodge Diesels with absurd looking tips, excessively loud and rolling coal every chance they get... 

Thanks fellas for making that Prius driving ecofreak and families all hate diesels in a matter of a second.


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## bigmike

So you have a $60k truck with less than 50k miles that has blown a turbo and doesn't shift right but other than that it's still a good truck?? F that, I think I'll keep my 5.9. A little smoke never hurt anyone.


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## FishOnOne

bigmike said:


> So you have a $60k truck with less than 50k miles that has blown a turbo and doesn't shift right but other than that it's still a good truck?? F that, I think I'll keep my 5.9. A little smoke never hurt anyone.


One could only assume you don't have a automatic tranny or you have less than ~75k miles since the Dodge 48RE is a very well known boat anchor.


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## FishOnOne

bobbyoshay said:


> It's the young crowd that likes to roll coal. Look at this douchenozzle's tip


Did he have his mirrors flipped up and have a big "Cummins" sticker on the rear window?


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## bobbyoshay

bigmike said:


> So you have a $60k truck with less than 50k miles that has blown a turbo and doesn't shift right but other than that it's still a good truck?? F that, I think I'll keep my 5.9. A little smoke never hurt anyone.


Yep....think that's what he said. Turbo was also fixed under warranty. Let me guess...dodges never have any problems? The transmission is also a smart tranny that learns the driving habits. Going between a tuner and taking it off will change it up therefore it will be awkward while its relearned.

The 5.9 you have might be one of the best engines and you should keep it as long as you can. Too bad the rest of the truck is a total pos and falls apart. Blow smoke all you want....there is no such thing as a "lil" smoke coming out of a cummins and the main reasons why the consumer grade trucks have the BS for emissions they now have. Lil poor boys that will never use it to pull anything think its cool to "roll coal" and smoke people out.


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## SKAggie34

bobbyoshay said:


> Yep....think that's what he said. Turbo was also fixed under warranty. Let me guess...dodges never have any problems? The transmission is also a smart tranny that learns the driving habits. Going between a tuner and taking it off will change it up therefore it will be awkward while its relearned.
> 
> The 5.9 you have might be one of the best engines and you should keep it as long as you can. Too bad the rest of the truck is a total pos and falls apart. Blow smoke all you want....there is no such thing as a "lil" smoke coming out of a cummins and the main reasons why the consumer grade trucks have the BS for emissions they now have. Lil poor boys that will never use it to pull anything think its cool to "roll coal" and smoke people out.


yeah it was my fault to have the tuner re-learn my driving habits. Problem is I dont ever have any consistent driving habits... On the highway then in traffic then in POC...

I changed the fuel filter yesterday looks like it helped my MPG. I'll know more when I get on the highway this afternoon.


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## oOslikOo

bobbyoshay said:


> Yep....think that's what he said. Turbo was also fixed under warranty. Let me guess...dodges never have any problems? The transmission is also a smart tranny that learns the driving habits. Going between a tuner and taking it off will change it up therefore it will be awkward while its relearned.
> 
> The 5.9 you have might be one of the best engines and you should keep it as long as you can. Too bad the rest of the truck is a total pos and falls apart. Blow smoke all you want....there is no such thing as a "lil" smoke coming out of a cummins and the main reasons why the consumer grade trucks have the BS for emissions they now have. Lil poor boys that will never use it to pull anything think its cool to "roll coal" and smoke people out.


there is no way the cummins drivers create anywhere near the coal the 18 wheelers that drive accross this country everyday. the newer dodges seem to hold up better...my buddys got 2 5.9's. a late 90's with 300K that has a trailer permenatly hooked up and nothing under the hood has been touched, but the dash is cracked. his newer one mid 2000's is still perfect inside. my dads newer fancy "rich mans" ford has had to have the navi replaced speakers dont work, and ford dicked him around with his exhaust issues while under warrenty among quite a list of other things. with how much he has spent on that truck he couldve done bought him a "poor boys" 5.9 that i would bet the house will outlast the trucks hes in now. people ask me why i have two trucks, and i tell em....hell i gotta keep a spare for when dads truck is in the shop. :biggrin:

As for the poor boys....give me a poor country boy over a concrete cowboy anyday. theres a reason when you come to the big city you see more fords than out in the sticks. i know there are diesel drivers that rarely use their truck for the intended purpose but fords are the worst. i laugh when i see the big jacked up truck (most of the time a ford) that you cant hook a goose neck up to. Every once in a while you'll see said truck with a 7" drop and his trailer that the 4 wheeler barely fits on rollin to the deer lease :rotfl:.


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## Copano/Aransas

> As for the poor boys....give me a poor country boy over a concrete cowboy anyday. theres a reason when you come to the big city you see more fords than out in the sticks. i know there are diesel drivers that rarely use their truck for the intended purpose but fords are the worst. i laugh when i see the big jacked up truck (most of the time a ford) that you cant hook a goose neck up to. Every once in a while you'll see said truck with a 7" drop and his trailer that the 4 wheeler barely fits on rollin to the deer lease :rotfl:.


HAHAHA...See it all the time makes no since, why by a truck.


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## Gilbert

Copano/Aransas said:


> HAHAHA...See it all the time makes no since, why by a truck.


small penis syndrome


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## Wedge

*Ford's ride is great.....*

But, my 07 6.7 goat is at 160k with 22mpg and the harder I drive it the better it runs.  Was going to trade in in for Ford, but this thread prevented it. My 6.7 Cummins has never done anything but go.

As stated above, the Dodge wrapper can be a rough ride and it lacks finish that the Ford brings to the table. I bought a truck to work, not to be pretty. If you want a pretty wrapper.....get the Ford and sit in your driveway and look pretty. They are definitely good for that.


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## CKALLTHEWAY

Wedge, If you are using this thread to prevent you from buying a new 6.7 then you have not read the whole thread. There are lots of people in this thread who love there trucks. Like myself I have 70,000 miles and have had only one small issue which was fixed in a couple hours. There will always be people who don't like ford . That's why they have 3 manufacturers of trucks. If you would like I would offer you an over the weekend test drive in a new one so you can try one out ? If you would give the 6.7 a shot you would love it. PM me if you would like to look at one.


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## Big Sherm

If you cant a-FORD it, Dodge it.


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## T. Rep

Go on an oilfield location and look at what trucks the service companies provide for their employees. Its Ford by a big margin....


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## bigstix66

Concrete Cowboy and proud of it!!!


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## goodwood

My "city" truck pulled 15k+ lbs through the hills in 100* heat with AC on going 75-80 mph getting 9.6 mpgs. Pretty happy with how my F250 handled the weight. Heard the 6.7 Powerstroke tows even better.


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## ShadMan

*For Cornhusker... *

See what I mean? Dodge = poor and ignorant


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## ReelWork

Got quite a few of those around my neck of the woods...


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## CKALLTHEWAY

That's just plain ignorant !!! IMO


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## ShadMan

CKALLTHEWAY said:


> That's just plain ignorant !!! IMO


The picture is not very clear...crappy iPhone camera. But, if exhaust stacks in the bed aren't ignorant enough, look what is right in front of the left stack. Yes, that is a fuel filter, and yes, a pump handle just to the right of the left stack. Hot exhaust and fuel work so well together...  :headknock

BTW, the "poor and ignorant" comment is an inside joke for one of my friends who is posting on this thread. I don't truly believe every Dodge driver is poor and ignorant...only ignorant.


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## bobbyoshay

Ford just finished my truck. They replaced the whole fuel system and covered it under warranty. Couldn't be happier to get out of that f150 and back into my ride.


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## goodwood

Glad they took care of you bobby. I think many people fear this situation and buy oversized gassers instead.


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## FishOnOne

bobbyoshay said:


> Ford just finished my truck. They replaced the whole fuel system and covered it under warranty. Couldn't be happier to get out of that f150 and back into my ride.


That's good news.... Did the Ford shop say why the High Pressure Fuel Pump failed?


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## bobbyoshay

FishOnOne said:


> That's good news.... Did the Ford shop say why the High Pressure Fuel Pump failed?


They didnt give an explanation other than it was not caused by me and it sent metal fragments throughout the system. They found some metal in the first fuel filter and more in a collector that is near the air intake compartment. Everything was replaced and the printout was quite long. Bunch of new gaskets, injectors, lines, everything that had fuel going through it. It runs like a scalding jackass now and will have some weight behind it tonight to see if it pulls any better


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## ReelWork

bobbyoshay said:


> They didnt give an explanation other than it was not caused by me and it sent metal fragments throughout the system. They found some metal in the first fuel filter and more in a collector that is near the air intake compartment. Everything was replaced and the printout was quite long. Bunch of new gaskets, injectors, lines, everything that had fuel going through it. It runs like a scalding jackass now and will have some weight behind it tonight to see if it pulls any better


Runs like a scalded JA now, Really!?! Curious why, what is different that made the change for the better and the like. Glad to hear it's going good...

You already had the higher output tune before, right?

Also good to hear the follow up. Does the invoice say how much the repair would have cost if had you to pay?


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## FishOnOne

ReelWork said:


> Runs like a scalded JA now, Really!?! Curious why, what is different that made the change for the better and the like. Glad to hear it's going good...
> 
> You already had the higher output tune before, right?
> 
> Also good to hear the follow up. Does the invoice say how much the repair would have cost if had you to pay?


I'm betting to the tune of $10k - $12k


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## RedXCross

Plus TT&L over LOW APR.:slimer:



FishOnOne said:


> I'm betting to the tune of $10k - $12k


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## bobbyoshay

ReelWork said:


> Runs like a scalded JA now, Really!?! Curious why, what is different that made the change for the better and the like. Glad to hear it's going good...
> 
> You already had the higher output tune before, right?
> 
> Also good to hear the follow up. Does the invoice say how much the repair would have cost if had you to pay?


I thought they tuned it every time it went in to get oil changed and whatnot. It def should have been flashed when they replaced the first fuel pump. It seemed to pull alot better yesterday with the same load i've pulled in the past.

No price was on the paperwork and when i asked the service manager he didnt reply but he was busy with other things.


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## g2outfitter

After my first oil change. Mpg went from 21 plus to 17 on 3 2011-12 f250. Dealers doing something

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


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## FishOnOne

g2outfitter said:


> After my first oil change. Mpg went from 21 plus to 17 on 3 2011-12 f250. Dealers doing something
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


These engines come with 10W-30 oil from the factory. Perhaps your dealer put in the typical 15W-40.


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## g2outfitter

I just thought it could have been due to reflash of computer, if they do on oil changes. Its not coincidental when its happen on all three trucks. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


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## bobbyoshay

Ill bump this thread back up. Had the same issue today that ReelWork had awhile back that leaves ya stranded. Supposedly its gonna be only the exhaust temperature sensor. Starting to get ticked off and gettin stranded only added to it.


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## ReelWork

My buddy had the pyro sensor/probe go out the other day. It's a quick fix but GD it sucks monkey balls when that screen says "Please pull over safely" and it ain't lying.. No power. No crank. Going nowhere... 

One thing I learned, the ECM will allow the motor to crank after about 30 minutes. The probe apparently sends a 2064 degree reading when it goes out sending the ECM into panic mode. 

About the only issues I've had were emissions related - thinking the Mini-Max may be set for exhaust deleted and a new pipe (minus the emissions junk) if it happens again.


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## bobbyoshay

I sat there for awhile until a ride came to pick me up. I would guess atleast 30 minutes from the time the truck shut down until he got there. 

Ford wasnt too happy when i told them to come pick it up and the location or to have someone drive by with a torch to burn it to the ground.

I asked again that if i deleted the emissions **** to prevent this from happening again if it would void my warranty and he said only if something major went wrong. The field engineer wouldnt like it but that dealership doesnt care. Too bad the engineer has to come out for any major repair. It was only about 3 hours to fix and its already done. Waiting for a ride back to dealership since they wouldnt tow it back here for me.


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