# What happens in Mexico Doesn't Stay in Mexico!!!



## Scott A

From my friend south of the border. This is what happens to our big girls when they swim through Mexico. Very unfortunate. Fish are a little early down there, so maybe they will leave and escape the big kill tournament in May. We can only hope. These are two ladies that won't be making the trip to Texas this summer. :hairout:


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## Scott A

More proof - their tarpon are our tarpon - so much for the Louisiana theory that their tarpon are born and raised in Louisiana - sorry!










http://www.bonefishtarpontrust.org/blog/2017-03-14-tarpon-genetics-program-results-are


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## Cavjock97

The BTT article suggests that they are currently harvesting tarpon is Louisiana. Is this correct?

-CJ97


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## Cavjock97

Also: What do they do with those dead fish in Mexico? I have heard anything from dog food to fertilizer, but I always thought that could have just been rumors. It looks like they were being processed for food.

-CJ97


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## Scott A

Cavjock97 said:


> The BTT article suggests that they are currently harvesting tarpon is Louisiana. Is this correct?
> 
> -CJ97


Kill tournaments in Louisiana like the Grand Isle Tarpon Rodeo. They don't take a large number in Louisiana - not saying that is right or wrong - but incidental death from angler poor release etc. is probably higher than what the tournaments kill in Louisiana anyway. Most of those guys are conservation oriented and practice catch and release 99% of the time in Louisiana. Still like to see them voluntarily change that over there... but the winds of change blow slowly.

Mexico is a far bigger problem -still !!!


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## Scott A

Cavjock97 said:


> Also: What do they do with those dead fish in Mexico? I have heard anything from dog food to fertilizer, but I always thought that could have just been rumors. It looks like they were being processed for food.
> 
> -CJ97


I'll get more info and get back to you....


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## dpeterson

*What a shame!*

Such a waste of a fish resource. Somebody in Mexico should be provided all the info the BTT has about the tarpon so those people doing this can be enlightened and hopefully stop. Is this taking place around LaPesca? What can we do to stop this ?


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## TrueblueTexican

*Our Tarpon*

Swim all over the Gulf and Central American coasts, Mexico has been and will continue to harvest Tarpon so long as there are mestizo harvesters and money to be made. Same for LA **** asses -- kill all the sharks and there will be more tarpon, its just the nature of things - showing dead fish to provoke an emotional response hurts fishing in general - better to have an educated populace than to get off the goal --I was in the mangroves at Hopkins Belize the last two years - thousand upon thousands of juvenile tarpon, its definitely one stop over and nursery.


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## Scott A

TrueblueTexican said:


> showing dead fish to provoke an emotional response hurts fishing in general .


I think you missed the point - it is to raise awareness of activities outside the U.S. Also, this is a commercial harvest, not recreational so I don't think it is a poor reflection on recreational fishing in any way. Just my 2 cents.


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## bwguardian

The way to stop this in Mexico is to mimic what was done in Cabo with the billfish. Make it a commodity to angle for them and switch the income...there is more money to be made on a living fish than a dead one. Cabo guides used to kill over 50% of their billfish and started waking up to the fact if there was only a less than 10% kill, there is more money to be made...


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## Scott A

Some more details. Photo was taken at a warehouse in a small fishing town south of Vera Cruz. This particular long liner keeps all of the tarpon he catches. These fish are not sold in an open fish market but sold nonetheless. Likely a by-catch for the long liner but the effect is the same. 

Don't really see the Cabo thing coming to fruition down there. Safety and low tourism on that part of Mexico will likely prevent any real development of that market. The big fish are only there a few months as they pass through on their way to Texas. Just don't see the same type of viable tourist industry starting in this area. At least the kill tournaments are now down to one. The other two or three switched to catch and release. That is a step in the right direction, but the one kill tournament can kill a hundred or more tarpon in just a few days. The participants pretty much bring every tarpon to the dock.


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## bwguardian

^^^...That's what was said about Cabo years ago and now look at it! If you want long term results it takes some work to get there...


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## Scott A

bwguardian said:


> ^^^...That's what was said about Cabo years ago and now look at it! If you want long term results it takes some work to get there...


Sorry, but geography and fishery are too different. Just not going to happen. Wish it would, but reality is it won't.


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## winxp_man

Just reading the first few posts boy does it get me boiling! One of the top hated things in my book (which are not many) is killing of big fish. I dont care who you are big fish need to breed to pass on good genes. I love making idiots feel more like idiots when I talk to them in person. Saw a post on some social web page about a guy spearing a super big marlin..... Boy was he happy until educated people got into the comment section. I just dont get the world. And man is education effed up in it!! At times I wish there were no animals to hunt or fish to fish for. I could go on and on but to what use. 

Sorry for maybe getting off topic. Is tarpon good eating anyways? 

Side not not against hunting and fishin I do it myself but use your **** brain is what I say. Keep the intermediate fish and let the big ones go.


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## Scott A

winxp_man said:


> Is tarpon good eating anyways?


Never tried one, but rumor is there are better fish in the sea to eat. In few places, they do consume them out of necessity. I also understand the roe is highly regarded in some places as well. Imagine how much roe you get out of a 175 lb tarpon.


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## Permit Rat

Even the kill tournament in Veracruz sees fewer fish than when I first moved there. But about 8 years ago, they tried to have a C & R tournament, before the kill tournament. It was canceled before it started, due to lack of interest/participation. This is simply the Mexican mentality and it will be slow to change. Y'all should see what the netters put into their fish boxes to sell....like anything that swims, including angelfish and butterfly fish (tropical) Those they cannot sell, (along with the jacks, blue runners, etc.) are made into "minilla," a Mexican fish dip served with tortilla chips.

But even in our own beloved USA, the commercials and their deep pockets have control over state and even federal gov'ts. It took the near extinction of the kingfish schools off the Lower Keys, before they finally imposed a net ban. The Kings returned eventually but they still are not in the numbers that once were.

Tarpon are a different story. I firmly believe that there are more fish than most people believe. I remember the big panic, back in the early 90's. But it is just that their migration patterns changed greatly with the warming of the Gulf of Mexico. I've got plenty of evidence to back that up with, too. Most of our tarpon are killed by mis-handling by guides and anglers alike. Unfortunately, light tackle and fly fishermen must bear most of this burden, because they do not learn how to maximize the pressure they can put on a fish with whatever tackle they are using. Then guides allow the fight to go on too long....etc. etc. etc.....it all adds up. But don't think for 1 minute that because you release a tarpon and you see it swim away, that it is going to survive. Several possibilities exist that all end in that fish's ultimate demise. It's gotten so that I don't like to fish for tarpon over 50 lbs. anymore. I also prefer to target them in areas where [hammerhead] sharks do not normally patrol and they have all the time they need to recover their strength.


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## Meadowlark

Permit Rat;20739065.... It's gotten so that I don't like to fish for tarpon over 50 lbs. anymore. ....[/QUOTE said:


> Probably for different reasons, but I also no longer go after the adult Tarpon. The perfect Tarpon for me is a 30 pounder or so on a 9 or 10 wt back in the mangroves. Absolutely great fun!


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## Scott A

Permit Rat said:


> Even the kill tournament in Veracruz sees fewer fish than when I first moved there. But about 8 years ago, they tried to have a C & R tournament, before the kill tournament. It was canceled before it started, due to lack of interest/participation. This is simply the Mexican mentality and it will be slow to change. Y'all should see what the netters put into their fish boxes to sell....like anything that swims, including angelfish and butterfly fish (tropical) Those they cannot sell, (along with the jacks, blue runners, etc.) are made into "minilla," a Mexican fish dip served with tortilla chips.


I agree, but they have changed some in Mexico. There are three major tournaments out of the Veracruz/Tampico area. Two have gone to all catch and release. The last one is hard to change and they kill hundreds of tarpon in just a few days. In 2015 and probably again this year, there won't be many fish around. The water warmed more quickly and the fish came through early. That tournament is in about three weeks down there. I'll get a report after the tournament. As long as they keep giving away cars as prizes, I don't see that tournament changing anytime soon. If they have a run of three or four years with no tarpon, maybe folks will lose interest. Let's hope.


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## Scott A

Permit Rat said:


> But it is just that their migration patterns changed greatly with the warming of the Gulf of Mexico. I've got plenty of evidence to back that up with, too.


There is a great old book that anybody who tarpon fishes in Texas needs to read. It is called the Silver Kings of Aransas Pass. Do some internet searching and you can get an ebook of it. Much of the knowledge discussed in this book was lost in the mid 1900s when tarpon fishing along our coast took a big hit. We have regained much of that knowledge today and that has lead to better angler success. I'm not sure that warming oceans had much to do with what we perceive as a "migratory change". The book talks about the bigger migrating tarpon that run farther off the beach. This was back in the early 1900s. Those fish have always been there. What has changed more than that was that the population decreased due to heavy commercial fishing in Mexico and even in Texas (menhaden fishing likely a big problem), but more than that, the changing ecology of our coast (dams on rivers, subsidence on the upper coast etc.) had an impact on the smaller fish (even the bigger ones too) that came into the bays or hung around more during the summer. Now, they mostly just keep moving on to better hunting territory in Louisiana. So for the closer fish, yea, there has been a change, but the big migrations off the coast are still there and never disappeared. In the early 2000's before 2012, if you'd ask me how the Texas tarpon population was doing, I would say great, it really seems to be coming back. Last five years, not so much. But tarpon populations tend to come in waves (take a lot to explain that - more than this post). Time will tell.



Permit Rat said:


> But don't think for 1 minute that because you release a tarpon and you see it swim away, that it is going to survive. Several possibilities exist that all end in that fish's ultimate demise. It's gotten so that I don't like to fish for tarpon over 50 lbs. anymore. I also prefer to target them in areas where [hammerhead] sharks do not normally patrol and they have all the time they need to recover their strength.


Agreed, and I preach this a lot. Many argue that lip gaffs are bad, but all combined more than a hundred tarpon have been satellite tagged - all have been lip gaffed and not one has died from what we can link to a lip gaff. Best not to lip gaff if you don't have to, but on big fish, sometimes you need to to get the fish to revive. We tagged a 200lb tarpon a few years ago. When I was ready to release her, she simply would not right herself. She kept going belly up and I was convinced she was going to die. I spent a few minutes with her and let out the long rope I had on the lip gaff. After a few minutes, she started to right herself and kick her tail. As she got stronger and pulled on the rope, I finally let her go. Without that long rope and that lip gaff, I don't think I could have effectively revived her. She lived and swam all the way to the bottom of the Bay of Campeche before the tag came off six months later. So I know she survived.

From having personally satellite tagged probably 30+ fish in Texas and elsewhere, I can tell you that some fish that you think are going to survive don't and some you think are going to die, don't. It is really impossible to know when you are releasing the tarpon if it will live or not. Predators are a huge issue also. One year, every fish we tagged and released off Galveston got eaten by a shark within a half hour of release. We know because the tag light readings go to zero and the temperature remains constant until the shark poops the tag out the back end and the tag starts transmitting. When we recover the tag, it has tooth marks in it. We almost stopped tagging tarpon because of that one year. Since then, it hasn't been problem. It just goes to show, sometimes, no matter what you do, if things are real sharky, tarpon are going to become victims. A lot of mortality comes from fishing. That's why I use as heavy a tackle as I can cast on casting rods and my boat rods are stout and can get a fish to the boat green. All to give them the best chance possible.

The biggest no-no is dragging a big fish out of the water on the deck or hanging it off the side of the boat. Learn to take a picture with the fish in the water. You'll see some areas like in Costa Rica where they still hold them up. Those are works in progress.. soon, we hope to do a better job informing them of what not to do. Dragging a big fish out of the water significantly increases the risk of mortality. That is why in Florida, that practice has been banned. Dragging one to the beach of an in the water photo is also a bad idea too. If you go some place and your guide wants to do either one, you should insist that he not.


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## Meadowlark

Scott A said:


> There is a great old book that anybody who tarpon fishes in Texas needs to read. It is called the Silver Kings of Aransas Pass. ....


I agree and appreciate your comments Scott.

I urge you to write a modern day book about Tarpon off the Texas coast.

You probably don't need it, but I had a lot of experience with "Tarpon Alley" long before it became known as such.

I would really love to see someone to put it all down on paper, the recent migration knowledge, the history of Tarpon Alley, the best methods of handling these silver Kings, the best fishing methods, the prospects for the future, etc. and I can't think of anyone better suited to do that than you, Scott.

Please consider it. Thanks.


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## Scott A

Meadowlark said:


> I urge you to write a modern day book about Tarpon off the Texas coast.
> 
> Please consider it. Thanks.


Ahead of you on that one. Been working on it. My goal is to get it finished within the year and e-publish it. It won't have too much information in it but have enough. I'll have to write one with all the information in it with instructions to publish it after I die.









The old guard of tarpon fisherman that were around back in the early and mid-eighties are getting older. I remember being out there and seeing one, maybe two boats, if any. Those days are gone, but our knowledge has certainly increased from those days. Back then, it was like blind chickens trying to find a piece of grain and not knowing what was important or not important (at least for me it was). Nowadays with the internet etc., the learning curve is not as steep, but there is still a curve.


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## Meadowlark

Scott A said:


> ....The old guard of tarpon fisherman that were around back in the early and mid-eighties are getting older. ...QUOTE]
> 
> There was at least a couple or more that pre-date that...and yes we aren't getting any younger, LOL.
> 
> Glad to here about the book and looking forward to it.


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## winxp_man

After reading the abundance of info in this thread by what seems like very knowledgeable writing.... It seems like its the issue with stripers here in California. Its a sad order of things. Today as a matter of fact while trying to do some research on lures for stripers that a buddy of mine wanted I ran into a blog. Well it was a sad day to say the least. This guy had about 4-6 hens posted on there that where all 35 lbs and bigger all taken home. People just dont get the idea behind conservancy! But I do post and tell as many people as I can about the foolish thinking behind need to kill every **** fish you catch....! I guess people forget about shopping markets with food in them and think that if you catch it in a lake, river or ocean its clean meat. Sorry but its not so any longer (especially here in the CA watershed!).


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## Meadowlark

winxp_man said:


> ...This guy had about 4-6 hens posted on there that where all 35 lbs and bigger all taken home. People just dont get the idea behind conservancy! But I do post and tell as many people as I can about the foolish thinking behind need to kill every **** fish you catch....! ....


Those hens were probably about 14 years old. I share your pain.

Social media, IMO, shares in much of the blame but really its the peoples attitudes that have to change....and that kind of change comes very slow, unfortunately.


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## That Robbie Guy

Meadowlark said:


> Social media, IMO, shares in much of the blame


Definitely. 
Standing around talking fishing, I had a stranger tell me that if I didn't have pics (on my phone or somewhere posted online) it didn't happen. All I could do was walk away.


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