# Tests & trials....?



## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

*James 1:2* My brethren, count it all joy when you *fall into various trials*, 3 knowing that the *testing of your faith* produces patience. 4 *But* *let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.*

_Notice this scripture does NOT say when you are led into trials, as if by God. It says when you fall into trials. _

_I have heard people say that God tests us through sickness and trials, to show people His mercy and goodness. And to cause people to draw closer to Him._

_If that is one of God's methods of teaching us,.....then WHY did Jesus heal the sick??? Why did He take our sickness and disease on Himself??? If we were being taught something and or drawing closer to Him through it, then why get rid of it??? Also that scripture says to let patience have it's perfect work so that we are perfect,complete and lacking nothing.( Sounds like healed and blessed to me.)_

_So how does the theory of God sending us trials to show off His goodness work? It doesn't even make sense when you really think about it. _

_Jesus became a curse for us. Paid the price for sin, which included all the effects of sin....sickness, disease, poverty etc....so that we could come out from under the curse, just so that He could use "effects" of the curse to teach us???? And, or to show His goodness???? Doesn't make sense to me!_
_Can someone take the scriptures, and show me where this idea comes from?_

_More scripture as reference......._

_*John 10:**10* The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. *I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.* 
11 "I am the good shepherd. *The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.*

_*James 1:13* 
*Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; *for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 *Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. 
*16 *Do not be deceived,* my beloved brethren. 17 Every *good gift* and *every perfect gift* is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.


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## mistermoe (Jul 22, 2005)

John 14:22-24
22*Immediately* He *made* the disciples get into the boat and go ahead of Him to the other side, while He sent the crowds away. 23After He had sent the crowds away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray; and when it was evening, He was there alone. 24But the boat was already a long distance from the land, battered by the waves; for the wind was contrary.

Jesus sent them out and I just happen to believe that He was fully aware that the wind would be "contrary". Now what happens later may be considered a test of faith. I am no Bible scholar, just sharing one perspective. I hear people say "If God brings you to it, He'll bring you through it." Still this does not "prove" that God lead us into trials, but it just might be possible that He might send us into a direction that might prove challenging. Once again, just sharing one perspective.

Moe


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## mistermoe (Jul 22, 2005)

Also see.....
*1 Thessalonians 2*

*Paul's Ministry in Thessalonica *

1You know, brothers, that our visit to you was not a failure. 2We had previously suffered and been insulted in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in spite of strong opposition. 3For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. 4On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but *God, who tests our hearts*. 5You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed-God is our witness. 6We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else.

There are also many instances in the O.T. where God tests His people.
Go to http://www.biblegateway.com/ and type in the word test or trial and read up. Still, I'm just providing information, not trying to force what I believe down your throat. You pose a good question and I too am searching.

Moe


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

Thanks for the response. I really want to understand this. What the bible says is that
the Old Testament is just that......It is the "OLD" testament, or the old covenant. We are now under a better covenant as Paul says. In the OT, we were still living under the "curse of sin", which brings about sickness, death, poverty....all kinds of stuff. But in the new testament we have been redeemed from the curse, which includes all BAD things. What I mean by that is, everything that you could consider "bad/evil" we have been redeemed from by the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. So if everything "good" as the scripture says comes from God...(the new testament never mentions bad/evil things coming from Him) how could He use that to "test" us?

Yes He tests our hearts, but I don't believe that's the same thing I'm talking about. He doesn't need to bring destruction or sickness to test our hearts. Destruction and sickness are tools of the devil. A product of sin. God doesn't use the devils tools to test us. That would be the same thing as saying that God is in a partnership with the devil. 
*1John3:8* He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. *For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. *

I've heard people say that God gave them cancer to draw them closer to Him, so that they would learn to trust in Him more! That sounds crazy to me! As a parent, would you (if it were possible) give your child a sickness so that they would learn to trust you and lean on you more??? Just so you could take care of them, and treat their ailments so that others could see how much you love them??? That's just how crazy that sounds to me. God is our heavenly father, and we are saying that kinda stuff about Him. It doesn't make any sense.

Somebody enlighten me.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

oh yeah, Mistermoe 

I forgot to mention that I do understand that there is suffering & hardships (for the Gospels sake) going on in...like from Acts to the end of the book. That's just part of it. They are suffering and going through all kinds of stuff, because they are trying to spread the gospel which is what the devil is trying to stop! And with a vengence!

But I'm referring to believers in general. Not suffering for the gospel! If you are in ministry, there are going to be PLENTY of opposition. However, even then Paul says that we are more than overcomers in Christ!


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

mistermoe said:


> I hear people say* "If God brings you to it, He'll bring you* *through it."* Still this does not "prove" that God lead us into trials, but it just might be possible that He might send us into a direction that might prove challenging. Once again, just sharing one perspective.
> 
> Moe


Sorry just saw this. The question still remains....*IF *He brings you to it. To assume He brings you to every trial that comes along, would be to say that He leads you into *EVERYTHING *you do, and is the cause of everything that happens to you. Just think about that!

About the leading us into challenging areas......I can go along with that. It builds our faith. But a challenge and a trial are 2 different things. I just can't go along with God causing stuff like my roof to cave in, and getting fired from your job, then just to find out your mom had a wreck and is on deaths door, and your wife has been diagnosed with breast cancer...... trhat kinda thing. You get the picture. But God seems to be getting the blame for alot of stuff, and it just doesn't fit to me. People act like God is to blame for everything, and we have no responsibility, or even the devil! They would rather blame God for it.

I would just like to understand. Maybe I'm all wrong and God is to blame?!!


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

God did not give pain to the world. It was invited in in the garden of Eden. Pain has been with man ever since and is a part of "this present darkness" But God uses pain. Think of it like this. 
If there were no consequences for our sin "pain" we would keep on sinning. There would be no reason to cease the behavior if there were no negative consequence.
It is the PAIN that eventually causes us to seek Jesus/God. It is the tool God employs to show the difference between the wages of sin and the peace that passes understanding. 
God did not set it up this way but he causes what Satan plans for evil to be used for good.


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## mistermoe (Jul 22, 2005)

I think we are in agreement. No, I do not believe God brings illness or destruction, however I believe He allows those things to happen. See Job. Please do discount the O.T. because these things happened as examples for us and we can learn valuable lessons. Also, a lot of illnesses are a result of our own sins. We can never blame God for our circumstances! But once again, Jesus sent them into contrary winds. Is it possible this was a test of faith?


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

activescrape said:


> eventually causes us to seek Jesus/God. It is the tool God employs to show the difference between the wages of sin and the peace that passes understanding.
> God did not set it up this way but he causes what Satan plans for evil to be used for good.


The way you have put it makes a more sense. I totally see how God can take what the devil meant to destroy us, and turn it around for our good. 
So God may use something such as sickness that satan may be attempting to kill us with, and heal us so that He will be glorified, and we will see His mercy is that right? So it is His will to heal us? It would have to be, because if it's not His will, then why did Jesus suffer that for us? It would be an injustice to Him wouldn't it?

......*It is the tool* *God employs......*
I think it might actually be a "law". "The Law of sin & death" as it is referred to in the bible. I believe it will work the same for everyone who engages it. Like the law of gravity will work the same for everyone who might jump off a building or anything else. They will all fall. _....God said......"I set before you life and death....choose life"._....So when we choose by way of our will, to go against the commandments of God, we are operating in the law of sin and death/the curse. As such the "law of sin & death" will attempt to steal, kill and destroy as long as we open the door for it to, and let it. Would that be a fair statement?

BUT the word says Jesus freed us from the law of sin and death. So why should we continue to live our lives as if we weren't free? As if we were still living under the curse?

*Romans8:2* For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 
*John8:31* Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, *"If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." *

So If we will KNOW *that *truth, it will set us free? That's what it sounds like it's saying to me.

I think I sound like I'm rambling now....sorry. It's just hard trying to wrap your mind around all this.......


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## activescrape (Jan 8, 2006)

Spots, you are into the meat of the scripture now. It seems to me that when someone gets saved they are so high on the experience that it may be a long time, even years before they start thinking along these lines. It is a natural progression in your spiritual journey, a journey that never ends.
Yes, the battle has been already been fought, and won, by Jesus, yet we continue to struggle. The most obvious explanation I can see would be because he is perfect and we are not.
We are free, but the enemy is very good at what he does and he is very successful in convincing us that we have to much to bear, it is hopeless, etal. 
This is the struggle between good and evil. 
the more we meditate on his word, the more victorius we are. Evil can not abide in the presence of holiness. They are like oil and water, they can not and will not mix. So, the more we focus on good the easier our daily battle will be.


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## Freshwaterman (May 21, 2004)

mistermoe said:


> I think we are in agreement. No, I do not believe God brings illness or destruction, however I believe He allows those things to happen. See Job. Please do discount the O.T. because these things happened as examples for us and we can learn valuable lessons. Also, a lot of illnesses are a result of our own sins. We can never blame God for our circumstances! But once again, Jesus sent them into contrary winds. Is it possible this was a test of faith?


I'm not dismissing the OT, I'm just saying that any lessons to be learned from it, are to be filtered through the blood of Jesus. We are under the covenant of Grace, so there is ALOT that we can NOT apply to us today, and get an accurate picture of our covenant.

Job is pretty perplexing no doubt. And is probably more perplexing to more people than any other book. But we are told to let everything be confirmed in the mouth of 2 or more witnesses. Job kinda stands alone. There are alot of judgements/tests/trials and so forth in the old testament, but most all have a lesson that *can* be learned from. You know the reason why things are done, because God tells you. Job kinda leaves you wondering, which of course leaves you to your own imagination. Thanks for the responses.


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## backlasher (Dec 20, 2004)

The reason the book of Job is so hard to understand is that Job never knew the reason for his trial. God was teaching the devil and all creation a lesson. The fact that Job never knew the reason doesn't negate the reality of the reason. When Paul was afflicted, he prayed three times that the thorn would be removed and it wasn't. His answer was "My Grace is sufficient". On his trip to Rome, he left Trophimus at Miletum because he was sick. Sometimes trials come to us because of the sin of others. I'm thinking of the baby that's born an addict because his mother used cocaine. 

The real answer to trials is to have a different perspective. Our lives are to honor God. If He can be honored by a baby born crippled, we should not question a trial but seek to honor God in it. If He can be honored by my being sick, then sickness becomes a praise.


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