# Thoughts on Early Doe Season?



## jenks13 (Mar 21, 2013)

Just curious what the consensus is on shooting does early? I am lucky to be on a fantastic lease with some other 2coolers. We are MLD III but to my knowledge the lease has never allowed hunting until November. The past few years we have been short on our doe quota so the idea has come up to use Oct., or part of it, as an early doe season. 

What do you think? Any research y'all know of?


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## Sugars Pop (Jul 10, 2008)

We usually wait until the extended doe/spike season to harvest doe's at our Junction lease. When I see yearlings with faint spots on them in late Oct. early Nov. I think these guys need to spend a little more time with mom to learn more survival skills.
I had a yearling this past year that was still nursing in mid Dec.. Jan, Feb and March are tough on the yearlings(5-6 Months old) in the Hill Country so every extra day spent with mom should help them survive these three months.


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## Ducker Rich (Apr 19, 2010)

I had the same trouble with the guys on our place. We made a rule you had to harvest a doe before a buck. We thought this would help us use tags, put meat in members freezers and would make them think a little harder before pulling the trigger on a young buck opening day after they just paid the processor. Our biologist agreed with our plan. Get some does out of the way early, this leaves more food for other deer and gets them out before being bred. We never do as well during the late season, the does are all bred by then and they have been eating food other deer could have been eating during winter. I agree though that you must be careful to not harvest young does and nubbins early.

DR


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## Law Dawg (Mar 18, 2013)

Ducker Rich said:


> I had the same trouble with the guys on our place. We made a rule you had to harvest a doe before a buck. We thought this would help us use tags, put meat in members freezers and would make them think a little harder before pulling the trigger on a young buck opening day after they just paid the processor. Our biologist agreed with our plan. Get some does out of the way early, this leaves more food for other deer and gets them out before being bred. We never do as well during the late season, the does are all bred by then and they have been eating food other deer could have been eating during winter. I agree though that you must be careful to not harvest young does and nubbins early.
> 
> DR


 I agree and the fewer Does there are to breed the less the bucks will run and chase using stored fat they will need to get thru the winter. Our Bucks come out of the Rut in better shape when we take as many does as we can early.


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## bluesboys69 (Aug 18, 2010)

:texasflagIn my opinion you should take your does out early as possible. preferably before the rut starts. otherwise your killing two for one. why shoot a doe who is bred to most likely the stud buck and kill his offspring. kill off older does and the ones you determine by age or last years offspring. does she have twins every year. did she loose a fawn. excetra.


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## Bottomsup (Jul 12, 2006)

bluesboys69 said:


> :texasflagIn my opinion you should take your does out early as possible. preferably before the rut starts. otherwise your killing two for one. why shoot a doe who is bred to most likely the stud buck and kill his offspring. kill off older does and the ones you determine by age or last years offspring. does she have twins every year. did she loose a fawn. excetra.


X2 Ever gut a doe with fawns? You wont forget if you do.


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## Ancuegar (Jul 5, 2012)

one ranch i managed we shot our doe quota in oct. we harvested 150 doe on 15k ac. that winter bucks went crazy beating themselves to death during the rut. lots of busted beams and points. it seemed like i was either finding dead bucks or untangling live ones on a regular basis. this was caused by skewing the buck to doe ratio heavily towards bucks, increasing competition between them.
the next fall we were overrun with spike bucks. we assumed this was from orphaning lots of fawns early. and if your mgt plan calls for shooting spikes you could cause yourself a headache. we realized what happened and didnt shoot a single spike that year. 
after that year we started our doe harvest about the same time as the rut. we never saw those problems again. 
we may have been an extreme example, but its just what ive seen in south texas personally.


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## 25Bertram (Dec 19, 2012)

I've never had the opportunity to hunt MLD but I like the idea of taking your does out early as long as they don't have a fawn by their side. 

On our place in Rocksprings, we take our does early in the season (before the first rut in early December) so there is more browse for the remaining deer and the bucks don't waste their energy breeding does that will end up getting killed.

About the only time we will kill a doe late in the season is if we see bucks chasing a doe hard in mid-January (second rut) we know she didn't get breed the first time around.

Agree with Bottomsup: you don't want to clean a doe that is carrying a fawn, not cool.


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## Instigator (Jul 6, 2004)

We take does in October to make sure that we comply with MLD3 guidelines. Our guys (relatively novice deer hunters mostly) have trouble taking does post initial rut which is in mid to late October for us. We do suffer a lot of broken antlers probably as a result. The other reasoning mentioned all have counterpoints. We are more concerned about nubbin accidents later when the yearlings are larger and the does have kicked them off. When you are managing your herd to keep it below carrying capacity taking a bred doe is not such a bad thing. We are also concerned about taking a trophy doe in January or February that is a dropped antler buck. We do try and take older does but I still have not figured out the advantage of that goal. I suppose that if you're a good enough hunter to pick out that 6.5 year old barren doe then perhaps it might be a tiny advantage. 

This whole deer management in low fence free range situations is pretty simple. Keep the population well below carrying capacity and let the bucks mature. After that we over think this a bit. Of course when you are paying the prices and investing the time that we do in hunting whitetails I guess making the game more complex is part of the fun.


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## Trouthunter (Dec 18, 1998)

We like to shoot our doe during bow season if possible. 

Sometimes we don't get all that the State has said for us to shoot so into rifle season we go. 

Problem is where my place is located the rut is going on at that time and we don't want to shoot the doe so it can be up to the last weekend of the season before we fill all our doe permits.

But shoot them early or late it doesn't matter much. If you kill them early they can't breed, if you shoot them late they may have been bread. Shrugs.

TH


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## awesum (May 31, 2006)

Trouthunter said:


> But shoot them early or late it doesn't matter much. If you kill them early they can't breed, if you shoot them late they may have been bread. Shrugs.


I don't really like shooting does for some reason but it seems to be easier to pick one early in the season that isn't courting fawns than it is to choose one later that hasn't been bred.


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## jenks13 (Mar 21, 2013)

Really interesting perspectives everyone. I appreciate the input.



Instigator said:


> When you are managing your herd to keep it below carrying capacity taking a bred doe is not such a bad thing...... We do try and take older does but I still have not figured out the advantage of that goal. I suppose that if you're a good enough hunter to pick out that 6.5 year old barren doe then perhaps it might be a tiny advantage.


I have some of the same thoughts as you Instigator. I've often wondered if taking a bred doe was good or bad... From a carrying capacity perspective, its logical to take a bred doe. You are taking 2 or 3 mouths out of the equation. But i can also see the perspective of letting the fawns drop and then recalculating your harvest the next year....

From a biologist perspective, when they give a quota, are they incorporating some bred does into their calculation for harvest, expecting a 2'fer or 3'fer occasionally?


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## jenks13 (Mar 21, 2013)

Ancuegar said:


> one ranch i managed we shot our doe quota in oct. we harvested 150 doe on 15k ac. that winter bucks went crazy beating themselves to death during the rut. lots of busted beams and points. it seemed like i was either finding dead bucks or untangling live ones on a regular basis. this was caused by skewing the buck to doe ratio heavily towards bucks, increasing competition between them.
> the next fall we were overrun with spike bucks. we assumed this was from orphaning lots of fawns early. and if your mgt plan calls for shooting spikes you could cause yourself a headache. we realized what happened and didnt shoot a single spike that year.
> after that year we started our doe harvest about the same time as the rut. we never saw those problems again.
> we may have been an extreme example, but its just what ive seen in south texas personally.


Never thought of it this way.... really interesting perspective/story


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## TXPalerider (May 21, 2004)

The earlier the better. From a strict food/nutrition standpoint.

A few years ago I saw and article that said a deer will eat about 7lbs of browse per day.

Example: Does shot in October vs January
20 does x 7lbs = 140lbs per day
140 lbs x 30 day = 4200 lbs per month
4200lbs x 3months = 12,600 lbs

That's 12,600 lbs more available browse for the remaining deer. (plug in your own numbers)

Not to mention all the does that bucks will fight over and breed that you will kill in January.

Just one angle to consider.


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## 8-count (Jul 3, 2008)

We like to shoot ours as early as possible.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Ancuegar said:


> one ranch i managed we shot our doe quota in oct. we harvested 150 doe on 15k ac. that winter bucks went crazy beating themselves to death during the rut. lots of busted beams and points. it seemed like i was either finding dead bucks or untangling live ones on a regular basis. this was caused by skewing the buck to doe ratio heavily towards bucks, increasing competition between them.
> the next fall we were overrun with spike bucks. we assumed this was from orphaning lots of fawns early. and if your mgt plan calls for shooting spikes you could cause yourself a headache. we realized what happened and didnt shoot a single spike that year.
> after that year we started our doe harvest about the same time as the rut. we never saw those problems again.
> we may have been an extreme example, but its just what ive seen in south texas personally.


Great example Andy. This times 100! There has been plenty of research done in south Texas by CKWRI to back this up. Use the search function on this board and you will see it is a debate every year.

Shoot them late. Less natural mortality for fawns, less natural mortality for bucks and overall better long term herd wide benefits.

Not just my 2 cents. My professional 2 cents and the 2 cents of lots of professional biologists all over south Texas.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Some of the King ranch ranches used to make it a must to shoot the doe quota before any bucks were taken.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Really Charlie? We do this every year. This is not the case on King Ranch now nor has it been in the past 15 years.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Cynoscion

Well it's probably been at least 15 years ago that was the rule. I was not on the property but a couple of good friends were. On the properties just south of Kingsville and one Just north of Kingsville heading north on the right. You know I caint affoard that place. LOL

Re an earlier post regarding shooting doe early but after doing that severly unblancing the ratio too many bucks I can understand a busted up buck population. We harvest doe just to try and keep a 50-50 ratio
not 25-75 or whatever. But as I have said many times, Thats why there are Fords and Chevys Everyone has their own ideas or ways of doing things. We try and get as many early as we can. Trying to find the barren doe first with no fawn and later with older fawn who have a much better chance of making it. Good huntin.

Note
I am no way trying to say one way is better than the other or create any conflict with anyone. The man ask for opinions and I gave him our way of doing things. Whatever makes you happy..


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Something else to think about. Research says (book reading) that the older doe make better mothers. We have two doe that are at least 10 years old (tagged) and have twins every year and raise them well. Yes in the wild and not pen raised. One did get a little skinney this year. So what does that say about shooting older doe ? Who knows ?.


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

Shoot them early and shoot the yearlings. Carefull not to shoot your nubin bucks...And keep in mind, just because the KR does it don't make it right. Parts of it are very mismanaged IMO.

EDIT: mismanaged on the cattle/ranching side


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## dmwz71 (Feb 5, 2010)

The rancher on our lease has a hard and fast rule......if you are going to shoot a doe, it MUST be in November; no does allowed to be shot after November 30. He simply does not want to take the chance of an already bred doe being shot. The rut never starts until at least the second or third week in December, but he is adamant that we have to take our doe (and only one doe) before December 1. So.....I always try to hunt for my doe first, as I do not want to miss putting that meat in the freezer, AND I think it is all important that all of the hunters on the lease take their doe in order to manage the herd.


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## BigBuck (Mar 2, 2005)

*Does*

I believe the reasoning to shoot older does is genetics. If you begin a management program and begin removing inferior genetics (cull bucks), then the younger does (therotically) are bred by better bucks, therefore keep younger does. Once you have been in a program for a while, I don't think there is any advantage to shooting older does.
I hunt the same place as Jenks13, we are MLD 3. Our biologist always recommends shooting does early to leave feed in the field. Our rancher agrees with this position, so we may not have a choice. 
For those places that have a protein feeding program, they can carry more deer per acre than our low fence all natural feed. We do not have many hunters that feed all year, and most just feed corn and/or alfalfa. The most important factor for a healthy herd is numbers of deer/livestock per acre, so for us in the hill country, it is all about numbers. 
Thanks Josh for bringing this to the forum, hopefully someone here will have a better solution than I can think of.
BB


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Hey BB

If you have a management program and cull inferior bucks then all the doe both young and old are going to be bred with better bucks ya think ?? LOL


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

CHARLIE said:


> Cynoscion
> 
> Well it's probably been at least 15 years ago that was the rule. I was not on the property but a couple of good friends were. On the properties just south of Kingsville and one Just north of Kingsville heading north on the right. You know I caint affoard that place. LOL
> 
> ...


No worries Charlie. I just always find it amusing when folks ask for "opinions" and are then given advice from at least 2 professional wildlife biologists who have been managing deer herds successfully for a long time and when the answer they don't want to hear is presented, the debate continues.

Our management practices are based in science. Although everyone knows that science is not exact and that theories change as new research comes to light, as best we know now, shooting does later in the season (post December 1 in south Texas) has the greatest herd wide benefits.

South Texas is plagued by poor fawn crops. Research suggests that leaving fawns with their mothers until after 12/1 in south Texas results in much higher fawn survival than the reciprocal.

The argument of not shooting does late b/c they may be bred by big bucks holds NO water. If you shoot that doe early, she was never bred anyway so it is a wash.

The carrying capacity is the only argument that has any merit but it too is a wash b/c in a well managed herd, the target deer density will be met within a few months regardless. Large scale deer die offs are the result of long term poor conditions, not a single hunting season of too many animals. If you can lose that many deer to starvation in that short of a time period, you most likely were carrying too many deer to start with.

Take away message:

Shoot your does late and you will see the benefits of:
1. Less natural mortality on the buck segment of the herd
2. Yearling bucks in better condition in subsequent years b/c you gave them every chance they needed.
3. Better age structure in your herd b/c of the above.
4. A perceived prolonged rut b/c there will be more does for your bucks to breed.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Good post (above).
I have to ask to be sure you are saying the buck population benefits from later shooting because there are more doe for them to breed therefore less fighting for the chance at a doe therefore being less run down or busted up ?

Not sure or dont understand "yearling bucks in subsequent years because you gave them every chance they needed " 

Are you saying again because of less fighting over the doe they have a better chance basically ?

Re age structure I dont understand that one. You gotta explain that one to me. Really, I would like to know why shooting doe later during the season helps age structure. What are you calling age structure ?
Agree on longer rut because of more doe. 

Agree the older fawn has much better chance to survive. 

I am asking not to be smart I just would like to know why. Not being critical at all. Just trying to learn. I am not too old to learn (LOL).almost tho


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

CHARLIE said:


> Good post (above).
> I have to ask to be sure you are saying the buck population benefits from later shooting because there are more doe for them to breed therefore less fighting for the chance at a doe therefore being less run down or busted up ?
> 
> Not sure or dont understand "yearling bucks in subsequent years because you gave them every chance they needed "
> ...


I understand they are just questions so here goes:

Lower natural mortality on the buck segment of the herd b/c there are more does to breed therefore less competition and less "roaming" looking for "hot" does. Less competition equals less energy burned equals better body condition post rut. Less competition also equals less fighting which equals less natural mortality.

Your yearling bucks (the next season) will be in better shape b/c they got to stay with their mommas for a prolonged period of time. It is not that the fawns are not able to survive on their own. It is more of a function of learned behavior. If you orphan a fawn 3 months into their life, there are a lot of things that they have not had a chance to learn from their mommas that are very important to survival. By letting the fawns stay with their mommas as long as possible, you "give them every chance possible" to survive.

In general, age structure is where most deer herds are lacking. Buck age structure is the percentage of bucks in any age class. For simplicity lets use young (1.5-2.5), middle aged (3.5-4.5) and mature (5.5-death) as examples. In a dry year, you may have a very poor fawn crop (15% or less). The next season, your young age class will suffer but 5-6 years down the road, your mature age class will suffer. By letting fawns live with their mommas as long as possible, you increase the fawn's chance of survival thus you have more mature bucks to shoot 5-6 years down the road. It is VERY possible that too aggressive of an early doe harvest will stunt (see Ancuegar's post) or eliminate subsequent age classes.

Hope this helps. Remember, that the advice that I try to give here is FREE and comes without the consulting fee usually charged (haha). I enjoy helping people understand how population dynamics work but this is my job. If you (not just you Charlie) are an armchair biologist/deer manager and you are wrong, you may have a bad season or 2. If I am wrong (too many times anyway), I have to look for another job.


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## BigBuck (Mar 2, 2005)

*Fawns*

"Hey BB

If you have a management program and cull inferior bucks then all the doe both young and old are going to be bred with better bucks ya think ?? LOL"

Sorry Charlie (no pun intended) I guess I was not clear. I was not saying younger does would be bred by different bucks, but the does themselves, who contribute to the fawn's DNA, may/should have better genetics once you started to remove some of the cull bucks. Therefore, the younger does have a better chance of possessing better genetics.

Cynocysm: I understand you are a professional, and I am not belittling your credentials. However, how many different opinions are you aware of about almost every facet of whitetail management? Shoot spikes, don't shoot spikes, shoot early, shoot late, age by teeth, never age by teeth ad nauseum. 
The OP was looking for opinions, looks like he got them!
Thanks to all.
BB


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Cysnoscion

Thanks for the lession (LOL). Understand completely now what you are saying regarding early harvest. I am sure it would make a difference certainly if the doe population was not in line with the buck population. Way less doe than buck. My thoughts are to harvest doe to keep it near to 50-50 after the shoot. Also during the year to remove inferior buck from the herd trying to keep that balance between buck and doe. But totally understand and agree with an abundance of doe the less the impact on the bucks well being. 

Understand regarding the age issue I asked about. Same with fish some years there is a good spawn and some years a bad spawn. So few years later after a bad spawn there are fewer 5 pound fish and opposite on good years.

We also agree on trying to allow the fawn to stay with mom as long as possible or order to allow fawn to have a much better chance of survival. 

What's your thoughts regarding older doe being better mothers and being able to raise the fawn better than younger doe. I think I agree since she has seen it all and can direct that towards raising her babies. Again we have 2 doe that are at least 10 raising twins every year (good or bad) summer. We do feed year round. 

We dont shoot spikes unless year and half old but do shoot 8's 3 1/2. Have very few 8's that show nowdays but more young 10's

BB
Understand, I was just jackn with ya.


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

Most of the fawns only nurse for about 10 weeks and are kicked/weaned off their mom by the time rut starts anyway. Right??

Also, wouldn't the buck to doe ratio have to be in order to apply.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

BigBuck said:


> "Hey BB
> 
> If you have a management program and cull inferior bucks then all the doe both young and old are going to be bred with better bucks ya think ?? LOL"
> 
> ...


Just for chits and giggles let's address each of your points:

Research suggests that 1.5 year old spikes will generally end of being inferior to their fork horned cohorts. Does this mean we should shoot spikes or not? The better question is what are your goals? If you need to grow 1 big deer per year and that's it, shoot spikes. If like me, you have to produce 30-40 "trophy" deer and another 30-40 "management" deer to keep your clientele happy, then it's pretty easy to see that shooting spikes is an unwise move. So this one can be argued.

Research suggests that the tooth wear and replacement (TWR)method of aging teeth is about 50% accurate for deer 3.5 and older. For deer less than 3.5 it is extremely accurate. Cemmentum annuli aging is approximately 85% accurate for deer 3.5yrs and up sooooo....age your deer by TWR and send them off for cemmentum annuli for the most accurate measure available.

The original question from the op concerns overall herd health and how it relates to timing of doe harvest. As far as I know, there has been no scientific study showing any drawbacks of a late season doe harvest but there is a lot of research showing the benefits of the opposite.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

IMHO the biggest problem with the deer management profession is that there are too many "professionals" who get their info from periodicals and not research. 

I can only think of 3 professions where the person you're working for knows more than the person doing the job. Wildlife manager/biologist, hunting guide and fishing guide. 

Sounds crappy but it's true. You are probably very good at what you do and I probably don't have a clue how to do your job but the difference is I'm not afraid to admit it. Truth is, everybody thinks they can manage a deer herd.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Rack Ranch said:


> Most of the fawns only nurse for about 10 weeks and are kicked/weaned off their mom by the time rut starts anyway. Right??
> 
> Also, wouldn't the buck to doe ratio have to be in order to apply.


Right, but what the research suggests is that there are certain learned behaviors that the orphaned fawns are not getting in that time frame that leads to their demise. It's not that they can't survive, it's that they don't.

If it was legal, I'd shoot our does in March, April or May. You lose absolutely nothing by letting the fawns stay with their mothers as long as possible.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

Charlie,

I do agree that the older doe is probably a better mother. This is just my opinion though and is not based on any research. I'm not aware of any research into this matter but somebody has probably looked into it.


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## BigBuck (Mar 2, 2005)

*Does*

Sorry for the Hijack Josh, last post off-topic I promise.

The only point I was trying to make is that there are differing opinions even among professionals, much less the average lease manager. I have managed ranches for over 40 years, 35 years or so of them were "managed" ranches. I have never once instituted "my" management practices. Always the recommendations of the Biologist I was working with. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night. From Fielding Harwell to Rodney Marburger and to our current biologist, I leave the recommending to the professionals. I just follow orders. I do, however listen and know how to read, so I am not completely clueless. As you have pointed out, there are many management stratigies, from max yield/max harvest to trophy management, and everything in between. 
The Holden bunch don't ascribe to the norm for most management practices, and we all know the kind of incredible results they accomplish.
BB


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks for the compliment! 

I really don't like posting or giving advise on things I don't feel sure of but... For what it's worth.. We try and shoot the majority of our does on 3 year intervals every 3 years we try and take out numbers.
We shoot most in November until we see the bucks starting to breed. This fits with our area and not all counties IMO.
We take some young does "yearlings"on heavy fawn crop years and none on drought years.
We try and age does best we can and shoot the ones we feel are 8 plus years old more than the 4-6 year olds. We judge that by their body conditions and are not too picky does live a long time and do reproduce at very old ages.
We like to wait until November to give the fawns a little better chance. And that being said we have to shoot fast to get our numbers in one short month on those years.
We try and take the doe with doe fawns more so than the does with buck fawns. 
Leaving the doe in 3 year intervals in my opinion helps secure the genes of the heard. You never know when you are shooting a "200" Doe".. 
Almost every trophy buck we have taken on the ranch can be seen now mirrored by their offspring or even a brother. I think it has to do with the caution we use in taking out to many does. It's a tough argument and a big circle to try and say what is right or wrong. I have listened to many a good talk around our camp fire with different ranch managers ideas and reasons why to take lots of does. Really they all make since in some ways. 
Our neighbors on 3 sides all have a lot more aggressive approach on lower numbers of deer from what I know. So we don't see near as many deer on our bordering fence lines and take very few deer in those areas. The center of the ranch has 3-4 times as many deer so most of our does come from the higher populated areas judged by ground surveys from the blinds. We took about 80 doe this year that was a lot for us. Actually the most we have ever taken. You wouldn't think we took any after a week of sitting in stands. 
Last year we took about 20.
The year before none
The year before that none. 
The more doe we have it seems the less the bucks fight and travel.
BUT! The more doe we have the longer the rut which kinda defeats that purpose and still is hard on the bucks with the extra month of breeding.
The more doe we have , the more bucks we have. 
The more bucks the better chance at more big ones??
Also there is safety in numbers. 
If you have a lot of deer odds are the coyotes, lions and bobcats are getting the younger dumber animals more than the older smarter animals. 
If you have fewer deer it seems to me the odd change with predators more likely to take a deer you wish they wouldn't have. 
There are lots of folks out there raising monster bucks with great plans of high number and low numbers. No plan works half ***. You can't use part of one guys management plan that is successful and change it to satisfy 5 different opinions on another ranch and think it will work. Does are a big part of any plan IMO. 

The doe has the same gene as the bucks you just can't see it. That to me says you need to be more careful shooting does by the book so to speak. 

Back to shooting does early or late. We shoot no does that have been bread once the rut starts. If we shoot any late does they are very young does. 

You can always take them off the ranch but you can't put them back if you realize you have done wrong. 

Our plan is NOT right. 
It's just different and it works for us. We have learned to except the failures in our management plan with out frustration and try and fix our mistakes yearly. 

Keeping good genetics is hard on a lease. That is where I think our plan works well with age structure in does and bucks alike.
You never know what buck genetic you are taking out shooting does late season.

Just my opinion.

This thread has lots of great hunters voicing out and all good points for different management plans you just have to pick one and stick with it 100%. 

Brett Holden


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Bret

Good post. "We shoot no doe that have been bred" I gotta ask how in the heck do you know if she is bred or not. Its great practice not to shoot them but I wouldnt have a clue.

Again we shoot doe early but try and pick out the barren doe with no fawn. We have been lucky with that by finding that so far the one's we have killed have no milk. Agree the longer with their mother the better chance the fawn has. I hate to see abviously a young fawn alone trying to make it. You nevr know if it does or not.


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## broadonrod (Feb 26, 2010)

CHARLIE said:


> Bret
> 
> Good post. "We shoot no doe that have been bred" I gotta ask how in the heck do you know if she is bred or not. Its great practice not to shoot them but I wouldnt have a clue.
> 
> Again we shoot doe early but try and pick out the barren doe with no fawn. We have been lucky with that by finding that so far the one's we have killed have no milk. Agree the longer with their mother the better chance the fawn has. I hate to see abviously a young fawn alone trying to make it. You nevr know if it does or not.


I guess I should say we "don't shoot any does we think have been bred" saying that I mean once we see the first sign of a buck tending or pushing a doe we stop. That's what stopped us on 20 for the year before last. We had planned on taking 60 that year and around mid November we saw a really nice buck breed a doe. We called off taking any more does for that season.

We really don't see "barren" does that I know of. I do see doe that may have lost their fawns early but I don't think they are barren more unfortunate. I have alway thought more fawns are taken by predators the first 5 days than the next 5 weeks combined. At least that's the way it looks on our place but we do have lots of predators.

The only other safe way I can think of to be sure about bred does would be to get Matt to run out and catch them, test them and them shoot them. Lol

That would have sounded stupid when I was a kid lol. But now days well ... Lol ðŸ˜

I surly don't have any good answers or great plan on this doe thing. It is a tough one for sure!


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Yes very inreresting discussion. Lots of different views. You make a good point regarding barren doe. Dont really know if she lost her fawns or just barren. Guess really doesent make too much difference. She's not trying to raise a fawn so doesent hurt shooting her. She is not leaving a young fawn that will struggle to make it. 

I have a little trouble grasping the impact of shooting doe early therefore causing bucks to have problems. Certainly a small bit but major complications I dont know. Sure fun talking deer huh ?


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## BigGarwood (Oct 13, 2008)

I know one thing for a fact, 100% true no matter how you look at it or how much research has been done or what professional you talk to:

Every time we think that we have nature figured out, they throw us a curveball that defies what "we think we know", and there is always new suggestions and circumstances that change how we operate and manage. Nature is just nature and you have to do what works best for your situation. Nothing is ever set in stone, but you can make observations and try your best to accommodate what you see working or not working.


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## crawdaddct (Sep 14, 2011)

Our land owner wont allow does shot prior to rutt. Low fences and he says the does bring in the bucks. I had seven does at one of my feeders last year. Told the lease manager and I was allowed to take two does. Still got my bucks.


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## jenks13 (Mar 21, 2013)

Wow!! Thanks everyone for the input. A lot of experience and savvy on this page. I really appreciate it. 

Charlie; It sure is fun talking deer. 

I've decided to focus more on fishing.... That's easier to figure out, right?!


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## wet dreams (May 21, 2004)

Must be nice to be able to wait till mid Dec, here our does are mostly done by the 2nd w/e. Have always not shot doe's with twin bucks BUT found out on HERE the doe has nothing to do with the sex BUT have also heard if you take the doe with a buck fawn, the buck will stay in the area. One place I hunt my dad gets LAMPS permits and it allows being able to watch the whole season and take out the ones we want or feel needs to go....especially the SMART ones...BTW if you shoot a nubbin or a buck that has shed its horns your a idiot...plain and simple, it's NOT that hard to tell them apart with just a LITTLE observation....and I do like them with some milk around the mouth..


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Jenks13

Let me know if you figure out fishing. Be curious what you come up with. LOL


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## THUNDERSTORM (Feb 10, 2011)

We try to harvest our does in bow season and concentrete on loner does not a perfect science but works for us ,2014 our does got hard to hunt as a trophy buck due to native veggies


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## letsgofishin (Sep 28, 2009)

*Yessir!!*



bluesboys69 said:


> :texasflagIn my opinion you should take your does out early as possible. preferably before the rut starts. otherwise your killing two for one. why shoot a doe who is bred to most likely the stud buck and kill his offspring. kill off older does and the ones you determine by age or last years offspring. does she have twins every year. did she loose a fawn. excetra.


I think you got it right. Shoot those old BOSS does and do it early. Leave the good breeders. Everybody in the herd is better off along with the hunter.

:texasflag


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## SSST (Jun 9, 2011)

We hunt the Hill Country where it's a must to kill the doe quota, we kill some early, some late. We always try to look for the loner does, i have a very hard time shooting one with twins standing next to it, call me soft, that's fine. Pretty much comes down to when we feel like cleaning a deer, lol.


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## Instigator (Jul 6, 2004)

Every once in a while we get a thread like this that is worth paying for. I emailed links to this one to guys who are pretty skilled. Every one of the responded with appreciation.

This is a darn good example of the old adage, "The more you learn, the less you know". I'm usually pretty leery of table pounding opinions and it was very cool to read guys' posts whose ideas I have come to respect say that this puzzle is a head scratcher. At some point we may have a clear and obvious best practices plan for doe harvest but I tend to think that we will have to settle for choosing a strategy that best suits the property and hunters that we have. There are a ton of variables just in those two categories that could push you to either extreme or anywhere in between.

With that in mind I have to agree with the Holden philosophy of choosing your strategy and sticking with it. At least until we know less.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Another one to think about regarding shooting doe. Some reading suggest that the older doe do a much better job of raising their fawn. Due to the experience they have over younger doe. We have two doe that are at least 10 years old (escaped from a breeders pen and have ear tags) and have been on our property for at least 10 years. They always seem to have twins and raise them well. We dont even consider shooting them. See them every year good season or bad season doing a good job with their fawn. Not saying what's good or bad just making a true statement.


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## sea sick (Feb 9, 2006)

A lot of leases say " 1 trophy,1 cull, 1 or 2 does and all the hogs you can kill". How's that for a management plan. I've never understood that. I know that's not across the board, but very common.


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## Rack Ranch (May 25, 2004)

You, as well as other on here, may find this an interesting read.

https://fp.auburn.edu/sfws/ditchkoff/Theses/Saalfeld, Sarah - MS Thesis.pdf



wet dreams said:


> Must be nice to be able to wait till mid Dec, here our does are mostly done by the 2nd w/e. Have always not shot doe's with twin bucks *BUT found out on HERE the doe has nothing to do with the sex *BUT have also heard if you take the doe with a buck fawn, the buck will stay in the area. One place I hunt my dad gets LAMPS permits and it allows being able to watch the whole season and take out the ones we want or feel needs to go....especially the SMART ones...BTW if you shoot a nubbin or a buck that has shed its horns your a idiot...plain and simple, it's NOT that hard to tell them apart with just a LITTLE observation....and I do like them with some milk around the mouth..


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

RR

Wow havent finished reading all that post but sure interesting read. Some things I had no clue (if its true). Changing the sex of their offspring. Wow.


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## Cynoscion (Jun 4, 2009)

When reading scientific journal entries/papers, there is generally no need to read the entire paper. The abstract will give you a good summation of the findings.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

Yes I noticed I was reading the same thing over..


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## Sugars Pop (Jul 10, 2008)

What about this one? The date and time are correct. Telegraph Texas. I personally cannot shoot a doe in the early season that has a yearling with spots on it which is not un common at your lease the first couple weeks of November.


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## CHARLIE (Jun 2, 2004)

We dont shoot doe with any fawn early. Only barren doe or doe with no fawn. Later in the year with fawn yes but fawn old enough to make it on their own. (hopefully).


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## trout250 (Aug 24, 2005)

we hunt in deep east and we can only shoot 1 doe and it has to be before thanksgiving. we hear that we have an over abundance of does, but if you look at pics on game cameras you see the same does or batch going from 1 feeder to the next( judging from size and # in the group). Its a tough call and we see does with fawns with spots way into nov. 

good luck and GOD bless


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