So, is God a micro-manager?

[Stuart]

I was reading Livininlogs post about his daughters incident. I'm glad she is okay. With that said, I always have to wonder if God really micro-manages. Don't get me wrong, I do believe God can do anything including micro-managing if he chooses, but what about the man that lost his life that same day? Most times when I ask these types of questions I get the standard "well God doesn't always answer your prayers the way you want them answered" response. Maybe that's a cop-out answer, maybe not. Personally, I guess I believe God has a plan for everyone. I believe he knows your beginning and your end here in this world. I believe if it ain't your time, it ain't your time. In fact, I think it may be more of a hinderance to one's faith to try and figure out "well God did this for me here, but things didn't work out for me there". That could personally drive me nuts. What are your thoughts / beliefs?

[Mrs Backlasher]

Stuart,

That's an EXCELLENT question. I'm looking forward to reading the responses. Of course, I have some theories, too. I'll post some of my theories later, maybe this evening when I have more time to focus on it. I'm keeping 2 of my grandsons today, so my thoughts tend to be a bit distracted right now, LOL.

[txred]

GOD is in complete control !!!!!! It is hard at times to understand but you should NEVER doubt HIM or question HIM !!!!! just THANK HIM for ALL HE DOES !!!!!!

[activescrape]

I hope this thread gets real long and deep. But I'll open shortly for now. I know that God was working in my life long before I gave it to him completely. I didn't see it or know it then but it is as clear as a bell in retrospect. I don't know why he answers some prayers and not others, but I know it's true. Again, there we often get the pat , "It wasn't in his will." answer. But I often imagine it like this. I'm a father, I have dreams for my children. I like to think I know what's best for them, due to experience, etc. So I instruct, intervene, and even let them make some of their own mistakes so they can learn a lesson they needed to learn. I'm always watching over them to snatch them out of harms way. I feel like this even today for my grown children. BUT, they don't always do it my way, they have rebelled, half of them aren't living for the lord, today. I would micro manage if I could, I think. But to do so in many instances would just put a wedge between us, and that is counter productive. At that point I just continue to pray. Let's hear from others.

[Stumpgrinder]

I believe strongly in the concept of "free will" and think that this ability to choose is where we all get sidetracked. God doesnt micro, macro or any other kind of manage unless we let him. If we believe in God and heaven then it stands to reason that we must also accept the concept of Satan and Hell.

God working with Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the source for all blessings. Satan, working with willing humans, is the "root of all evil"

I am often confounded as to why bad things happen to good people. I try to let go and let my faith carry me through the rough spots. I'm not a good enough person to question alot of the "whys" in life in matters pertaining to God. I trust that God is always right and accept that sometimes I won't understand.

No matter what the TV preachers might represent, sometimes having faith is hard and even harder to explain. However, I'm covinced that there is no other option.

[Livininlogs]

What may appear as micro managing to us fits in a whole other relm for our lord. Just think how difficult it is to keep up with your own family. As Activescrape said in your heart you feel like you should micro manage cause them chillin's don't have a lick of sense and with out me they would wither up and die. Now take our Father and go 10 times 10 times 10 times 10....... Thats his children he looks out for. Like any parent He has givien our rules to live by at that point you have to let your children live, Be there when they fall, and have the compassion to accept their failures and work to turn them into successes.
Back to the first question of this thread. Why was my daughter spared and the other gentelman not? To me that would be like me questioning how the Lord created the earth, seas, heavans and all the plants and creatures in 6 days. It's kind of like a 3 years old there are so many things to know at that age and you just don't have the powers to anylyis them of even have the ability at that age to question why. you learn from experiance and faith in your parents that they are showing you the right way. With my 52 years here on this earth I am but an infant in my Fathers eyes. I do not have the mentallity or the experiance to comprehend why things happen the way they do. Heck When I'm called away from here I'm Going to have a whole lot more questons than answers.
To me the only word that counts is BELIEVE..... thats the only explaination there is . I believe. If things go wrong I believe my father will take care of me. If I have a windfall I beleve God was responsible. To believe means to accept. I have been reading about Job, things happened all at once to Job that would drive any of us crazy. even though he lost his money, land, crops, livestock and even children he still believed. Then his body was stricken with sore and unbarable pain, he still believed in our Lord God. His faith never faltered no matter what. If you think about it thats really the only thing God Ask of us to believe in him. If you do that the rest is easy (well not that easy we are Humans...LOL) but that belief keeps you in the direction you need to be.
I know I wandered off again but what it comes down to It's not in our power to comprehend what God has planned....JUST BELIEVE.

[baylvr]

It's my belief that God has three answers to prayer:

Yes
No
Wait awhile

As has been already said, God doesn't micro manage us, he waits patiently for us to ASK for his help and then jumps in with both feet!

I wish I had the patience it must take for God to watch us suffer through the things we think we can handle on our own! I have a drug addicted son that I just have to sit back and watch as he throws his life away, but I too have to wait until he asks for my help. I know he's in God's hands... because I pray for him every day... but it sure makes it tough to watch just the same!

I'm just having to accept that MY answer is "Wait a while"....:)

[huntinguy]

Ah, theology once again! *grins and rubs palms together...

Ultimately, the answer to this question will be answered by what you believe about predestination. Personally I believe that God never has to go to "plan b", that there is no such thing as luck. I believe in God's providence, not fate. I'm sure others might disagree. How do I reconcile God's sovereignty to man's free will to choose? Thats a pretty heady question, I tend to say that man's free will exists within the boundaries of God's sovereignty.

James 1:17-18 "Every good and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth,that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures."

's all i have time for now....but will monitor the thread and be back later

*ducks head ;-)

[huntinguy]

LOL.....stump, livin and bay all posted while i was composing my post!

[activescrape]

There is more at play here than God's wish to or to not micro manage our earthly time. Satan has been given certain authority over "this present darkness." I used to struggle mightily with the thought of, say, a plane crashing and a hundred people lost at the exact same time. I thought, "how could that be, that it was all those peoples "time" at the exact same time. Impossible, right? I believe it was not God's will for all those people to die, it was satan's. That explains why bad things happen to good people. "It rains on the JUST and the unjust." Just let a father get saved and watch how fast satan attacks him in the attempt to not let him lead his whole family spiritually. As bad as I hate to accept it, it's the truth. God wishes only good and perfect things for us, so if his will was the only one done, life would be perfect. The fact that it isn't is proof that satan's will gets done sometimes too. OUCH!

[EricF]

Hello all, I am new to this forum, but I would like to chime in as well. If we believe that God is all knowing and knows the hairs on our head and the number of our days, as well as knowing us while we were in the secret place, then predestination is a real thing. God wrote the story already, from beginning to end. He is now watching his masterpiece unfold. What I call predestination is not the school of, " My life is already planned out, I'm going to live as I please, if I'm going to Heaven I'll end up there no matter what." As huntin guy pointed out, God is sovereign and free will does exist to a point. Funny thing is, the choice that you and I are free to make, God is already aware of. He planned it that way. He has a perfect plan.

Sin entered the world through Adam and we are all sinners. We have all fallen short of the Glory of God. Because of this sin bad things happen. Christ is the only bridge that sinful man has to God. During Christ's ministry his disciples believed that their reward and the promises of a new kingdom were earthly promises and that they would be given to them here on earth.It was not until later in his ministry that Peter identified him as Messiah. That being said, God doesn't promise us protection from things here on earth. We live our lives here on earth to obtain reward in Heaven. God's promises of protection are in the spiritual realm. Think of the armor of God. These are weapons we have been given to protect us spiritually. God could have given us weapons to protect our fleshly body from physical attack, but he didn't.

Like most of you, life has thrown me some curveballs. I have questioned God on many occasions, sometimes very loudly. I didn't see why He was allowing things to fall apart for me. He died for me, then I died for Him. I was obiedent, doing all He asked me to do, Why.... I have grown so much because of the trials that the Spirit has carried me through. Also, and most importantly, I have been able to counsel and witness to other Christians because of the trials and bumps in my life.

If you are reading this, and don't know Christ, let me be the first to tell you. Your life is not going to become perfect and God is not going to wave a magic wand and all of your troubles be gone. Following Christ can be tough, but He promises us, He will never leave us or forsake us. And God don't go back on his word.


Eric

[Stuart]

Good post EricF. I guess to expand on my thoughts, I believe that God set this world in motion. That perfect world balance was upset by Adam and Eve, nonetheless everything was set in motion by God. I think we are here along for the ride, equipped like you said, with the armor of God.

[predator22]

The Movie Bruce Almighty was a little raw but there was a message in there that I truly liked. There were a couple of scenes that displayed what would happen if everyone got their way, to sum it up the world became complete chaos.

Now away from the Hollywood viewpoint, my own viewpoint is that although we as humans can't comprehend what God has planned for us at all times, he uses the trials in our life to build us up rather than tear us down if we let him.

Recently we had a couple at our Church that was involved in an auto accident and the husband was severely injured and the wife killed. I don't know why that happened, but I do know that if I let it get to me, and I loose my faith then my purpose here on earth is hindered along with my relationships, my job, my marriage, my child and instead of becoming stronger and doing things better, I fall into the trap of self destruction.

Lately I have been under a tremendous amount of pressure and it has been difficult for me to stay true to my faith at times, but during this time I just say a small prayer that God will stick with me and it seems to help me through until issues at hand that are troubling me pass. They always pass its just a matter of perseverance and faith to get through them.

I can't answer the question is God a micromanager, but I do believe he guides my life even when I fall short in my actions and my faith.

Thus the reason I fish and love boats. I have never been on my boat and fishing when I didn't feel the presence of God. It is a true source of relaxation, and being able to re-focus. (Even when the axle on the trailer breaks at 15mph and the mechanic tells me I have low compression in two cylinders)

[Mrs Backlasher]

I think this comment by Huntinguy is awesome:

"I tend to say that man's free will exists within the boundaries of God's sovereignty."

God does have a plan for each of us. His plan is for our ultimate good. He does allow us to exercise our free will and deviate from his plan (within his sovereignty), and we sometimes suffer negative consequences as a result. But those consequences are aimed at getting our focus back on God. (Like children, we are easily distracted!)

There are occasions in the Bible where God was going to do something, but someone prayed, and God did something different. So I don't have a fatalistic view of God's will, like everything already is carved in stone. Otherwise, why would we even pray?

The Bible tells us that God is working out ALL things for our good. That means even the seemingly "bad" things that happen to us can be turned around by God to work to our benefit. I think that's why the Bible also tells us to give thanks to God for EVERYTHING. (I gave a testimony about this regarding a job in another thread on this forum, if you look for it, you'll find it. Hint: I didn't start that thread.)

If we have questions or complaints, I think we SHOULD take them to God. God is the only one who can give us answers. When I was a new Christian, I did that, and God satisfied my soul with responses. Sometimes he answered through the Bible, and sometimes he answered with illustrations from life around me. Because of that I learned to trust him more, and I didn't need to question or accuse him anymore. God is big enough to handle our questions, and if we take the time to listen and meditate, God will answer.

The Bible also tells us that we are participants in a spiritual battle against unseen forces. We will have the ultimate victory in the end, but we can have daily victories as well through our prayers, our faith in a loving God, and our willingness to be instructed and disciplined. God's goal is to make us more Christlike.

Of course, the first step is to enlist by receiving Jesus as our Lord. We accept his death as payment for our sin so we have no more condemnation. Then we are free to live for God.

I hope some of this makes sense.

[huntinguy]

Active be careful. If the fact that "bad" things happen is evidence that sometimes Satan gets his way rather than God having His way, then that implies that Satan has power over God. He doesn't.

If you look in the first chapters of the book of Job you will see that before Satan could do anything to Job, he had to get God's permission. The things that we see as being "bad" eventually are for our good and for God's glory. Take for example the spanking of a child, the child views it as definitely "bad", but you the knowing and loving father know that the discipline now will keep the child from further "bad" later.

When something "bad" happens we must simply have faith that God can and will use it for our good and His glory. The how and why we may not know until glory. Until then "trust and obey". ;-)

[huntinguy]

lol.......this time Mrs. B posted while i was compiling my post. I guess i need to get on the stick to get ahead of the game!


Great post Mrs. B

vBulletin MessageYou must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mrs Backlasher again.

[luv2fish]

Thank You Ms B

[SurfRunner]

There is definately a balance between free-will and the sovereignty of God. I believe in both.

We have to make choices each day and suffer the consequence of our choices when we choose to sin. Furthermore, God gave us a free-will because He cannot experience true love from us if he made us like robots. He created us so He can have a genuine love relation with us by our choice. He loves us so much, He gave us that choice.

On the other hand, He is in complete control. The devil had to go to God and ask for permission to reek havoc on Job. Also, God told Moses He was going to harden Pharoah's heart. In the end, God prevailed, so it all works out for the good for those that love Him.

I think this is one of those mysteries of God that we will not completely understand until we enter into eternity. Our human minds probably couldn't handle it. I try to avoid the extreme teaching of both and just try to be open-minded to either one.

[activescrape]

huntinguy, I hesitated to make the post you referenced and I know that God is in control and the victory is ours. I was just trying to make a point that bad stuff, hard to understand bad stuff happens, and we shouldn't blame it on God, as we have all heard done from time to time. Satan is the bad guy, not God. On another note. Every time we give in to temptation, it makes satan happy and God sad. The good news is that God can take that event, and it's repercussions, and use it to produce spiritual maturity in us. He uses it to enrich our testimony and so on.
Surfrunner, I agrree, if we were allowed to glimpse the total truth right now, we couldn't comprehend it anyway.

[notthatdeep]

Regardless of what we think, or are able to comprehend, He will do as He wishes. We will ultimately see his Love in His actions. Praise God. Trust God.

Rick
ntd

[gds]

God is a micromanager if we allow him to be, the more we allow him in our lives, the more he will lead us and help us.

[Belt Sanders]

Our hairs are numbered. Is that micro managing?
Phophecy cannot be changed but through prayer events and situations can be altered.
Prayer is most powerful.

[luv2fish]

Here is my view. Every person has a different pathway. We have each "life" STEPPING stone in it for a reason. If we walk it no matter how diificult, WE will not forget it. This leads us as Christians to share our experiences so that others may see and hear how THE LORD is and has and will work in all situations. The thing that I have really come to know is that, like the song says. FOR GOD ON THE MOUNTAIN ,IS STILL GOD IN THE VALLEY," WHEN THINGS GO WRONG , HE'LL MAKE THEM RIGHT , GOD IN THE GOOD TIMES ,HES STILL GOD IN THE BAD TIMES, GOD IN THE DAY, IS STILL GOD IN THE NIGHT



No matter what has happened in the past 2 1/2 years. As long as I have Jesus
THASTS WHO WORKS FOR ME. THANK YOU LORD.

[Cutter]

can anyone point me to scripture that references or talks about "God's plan" for us? I hear people say that all the time, but have never read it.

[centexfisher]

I was reading Livininlogs post about his daughters incident. I'm glad she is okay. With that said, I always have to wonder if God really micro-manages. Don't get me wrong, I do believe God can do anything including micro-managing if he chooses, but what about the man that lost his life that same day? Most times when I ask these types of questions I get the standard "well God doesn't always answer your prayers the way you want them answered" response. Maybe that's a cop-out answer, maybe not. Personally, I guess I believe God has a plan for everyone. I believe he knows your beginning and your end here in this world. I believe if it ain't your time, it ain't your time. In fact, I think it may be more of a hinderance to one's faith to try and figure out "well God did this for me here, but things didn't work out for me there". That could personally drive me nuts. What are your thoughts / beliefs?I like this question. The best we can do is describe what God is like since he is infinite and we are finite-we cannot comprehend the infinite (or look directly into God's eye). So, I think of it like this:

Since God is omnipotent and omnipresent-meaning that he is everywhere all the time-he like a multi-dimensional character-able to leap in and out of any dimension at any time, and, is able to be in all dimensions at once. If I were a multi-dimensional man, I would create laws or principles by which to guide all things so that I would not have to micro manage. These laws, I think, are found in the laws of physics and in the truth teachings found in Christ's teachings and the teachings of other great religion's masters. I believe that God is infinity-without limits-and that all we need do to find God is give up our attempts at directing our own lives, turn it over to God, and look inside. He is there. To go a step further, I believe that the reason God gave man free will was precisely so that though our own will, we could drive ourselves into a deep enough level of despair to finally really, totally, give up and turn our lives over to God.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

[activescrape]

I'll try: PS 40-5 "Many, O Lord my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." HEB 11-40 "God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." PS 33-11 "But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations." I think the point is, if God has, or made, any plans at all, they are obviously for us, the people he created, what else is there? Something else to consider. God gave each of us a spititual gift. Why would he do that if he didn't have a plan for us to use it?

[KatsMeow]

[Something else to consider. God gave each of us a spititual gift. Why would he do that if he didn't have a plan for us to use it?[/QUOTE]
To me a spirtual gift was given to me by my Lord, it is my choice to accept and embrace the gift.
As for micro-managing, he only micro-manages when one of his flock asks him for help. Ask and you shall receive, that doesn't mean the help comes in the way you may have expected but being his child he knows what is best, trust in him and in time all will be revealed in the Glory of God.

[uncleray]

What a great thread and I'm late to the party. Like all Christians I have had my share of struggles and at many times my prayers weren't answered in the way I had hoped and in my limited understanding they still haven't been answered yet in a way I can comprehend. My current struggle is going on 12 years. I've learned to accept that it takes time for God's will to unfold. When it all got overwhelming I began an ernest paryer for God to give me the answer and I believe He led me to the book of Job. I read it many times and the answer didn't come. Here was a man who was like I see myself who fell on hard times and didn't know why. He had lots of advice from friends on where he had failed. It was a struggle of faith. A friend who is a pastor gave me the best explanation I've heard of Job's fate. IT WASN'T ABOUT JOB. It was about satan challenging God to offer his most faithful servent to be tested but God said satan could harm him but not kill him. Job did not reject God even though he questioned him and God rewarded him greatly. I think we all live this story in one way or the other. Perhaps our struggles aren't about us but about God using us to defeat satan.

[seawings]

can anyone point me to scripture that references or talks about "God's plan" for us? I hear people say that all the time, but have never read it.Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God's plan for themselves by refusing to be baptized by him.

Act 2:23 This very man, after he was arrested according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Act 20:27 for I never shrank from telling you the whole plan of God.

Rom 9:11 Yet before their children had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God's plan of election might continue to operate

Rom 9:28 For the Lord will carry out his plan and shorten it in righteousness, because he will carry out his plan on the earth decisively."

Eph 1:9 when he made known to us the secret of his will. This was according to his plan that he set forth in Christ

[trout250]

A little late getting in on this, but my two cents worth. I don't know if you call it micro-managing or living by faith. I know that because of my trust in christ as my personal savior that i am assured of a place in Heaven. I know that when Christ arose stayed on earth the 40 days then went and sat on the right hand of GOD the Father there to make intercession for me. He takes my prayers and supplications and presents them to GOD the Father in such a manner that they are fitting to be heard by him I know that I can bow my head, close my eyes or just say a prayer where ever I am at. I also know that as long as I try an live as GOD would have me to an to stay in fellowship with him, I am in his family. When I get out of fellowship with Him or sin againist GOD then I am subjecting myself to being chastisement by GOD, just as we would punish one of our children for doing wrong.I am also thankful that he just to forgive us if we confess our sins to him an ask forgiveness. I am thankful that we all serve a risen savior an that he lives today in our hearts. God Bless Jim C.

[Mrs Backlasher]

can anyone point me to scripture that references or talks about "God's plan" for us? I hear people say that all the time, but have never read it.Here are a few more verses from the New Living Translation:
Jeremiah 29:11 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Jeremiah+29:11&version=51)
"For I know the plans I have for you," says the LORD. "They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope."

Psalm 40:5 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Psalm+40:5&version=51)
O LORD my God, you have done many miracles for us. Your plans for us are too numerous to list. If I tried to recite all your wonderful deeds, I would never come to the end of them.

Psalm 138:8 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Psalm+138:8&version=51)
The LORD will work out his plans for my life-- for your faithful love, O LORD, endures forever.

[activescrape]

I would like to say thanks for getting us to crack open the bibles and find these verses.

[Mrs Backlasher]

I would like to say thanks for getting us to crack open the bibles and find these verses.AMEN!

[huntinguy]

*grins

I've been out a few days and was anxious to get back to this thread and see where it'd gone. Must say I love the direction!

[EricF]

This was just e-mailed to me from one of my professors and I thought of this topic. I will paste it here for your viewing.


Hello Christian Counselors,
I would like your comments on this interview with Rick Warren.



This is an absolutely incredible short interview with Rick Warren ,

"Purpose Driven Life " author and pastor of Saddleback Church in

California .

In the interview by Paul Bradshaw with Rick Warren, Rick said:

People ask me, What is the purpose of life? And I respond: In a

nutshell, life is preparation for eternity. We were made to last

forever, and God wants us to be with Him in Heaven.

One day my heart is going to stop, and that will be the end of my

body-- but not the end of me.

I may live 60 to 100 years on earth, but I am going to spend trillions

of years in eternity. This is the warm-up act - the dress rehearsal.

God wants us to practice on earth what we will do forever in eternity.

We were made by God and for God, and until you figure that out, life

isn't going to make sense.

Life is a series of problems: Either you are in one now, you're just

coming out of one, or you're getting ready to go into another one.

The reason for this is that God is more interested in your character

than your comfort.

God is more interested in making your life holy than He is in making

your life happy.

We can be reasonably happy here on earth, but that's not the goal of

life.

The goal is to grow in character, in Christ likeness.

This past year has been the greatest year of my life but also the

toughest, with my wife, Kay, getting cancer.

I used to think that life was hills and valleys - you go through a dark

time, then you go to the mountaintop, back and forth. I don't believe

that anymore.

Rather than life being hills and valleys, I believe that it's kind of

like two rails on a railroad track, and at all times you have something

good and something bad in your life.

No matter how good things are in your life, there is always something

bad that needs to be worked on.

And no matter how bad things are in your life, there is always something

good you can thank God for.

You can focus on your purposes, or you can focus on your problems.

If you focus on your problems, you're going into self-centeredness,

"which is my problem, my issues, my pain."

But one of the easiest ways to get rid of pain is to get your focus off

yourself and onto God and others.

We discovered quickly that in spite of the prayers of hundreds of

thousands of people, God was not going to heal Kay or make it easy for

her.

It has been very difficult for her, and yet God has strengthened her

character, given her a ministry of helping other people, given her a

testimony, drawn her closer to Him and to people.

You have to learn to deal with both the good and the bad of life.

Actually, sometimes learning to deal with the good is harder.

For instance, this past year, all of a sudden, when the book sold

15 million copies, it made me instantly very wealthy.

It also brought a lot of notoriety that I had never had to deal with

before.

I don't think God gives you money or notoriety for your own ego or for

you to live a life of ease.

So I began to ask God what He wanted me to do with this money, notoriety

and influence. He gave me two different passages that helped me decide

what to do, II Corinthians 9 and Psalm 72.

First, in spite of all the money coming in, we would not change our

lifestyle one bit. We made no major purchases.

Second, about midway through last year, I stopped taking a salary from

the church.

Third, we set up foundations to fund an initiative we call The Peace

Plan to plant churches, equip leaders, assist the poor, care for the

sick, and educate the next generation.

Fourth, I added up all that the church had paid me in the 24 years since

I started the church, and I gave it all back. It was liberating to be

able to serve God for free.

We need to ask ourselves: Am I going to live for possessions?

Popularity? Am I going to be driven by pressures? Guilt? Bitterness?

Materialism? Or am I going to be driven by God's purposes (for my

life)?

When I get up in the morning, I sit on the side of my bed and say, God,

if I don't get anything else done today, I want to know You more and

love You better ...

God didn't put me on earth just to fulfill a to-do list.

He's more interested in what I am than what I do.

That's why we're called human beings, not human doings.

[luv2fish]

That is terrific. All things are HIS anyway.(Even Money) I see it as he lends us HIS things to use why we are here, and HE expects us to use ALL things TO HIS GLORY.


Thank you for sharing.