Question for debate

[LouieB]

It may have been talked about before, but I wanted to get everyones opinion...including BS and PJ.

About this cartoon cr@p. Seeing that the world has made numerous demeaning cartoons regarding our president (not just W but all of them), denounced our flag and burned it publicly, denounced God as He is seen throughout ABOUT 75% of the US, (I mean the God they don't worship) and pretty much poopooed on our country....

Why would or should we try and "calm" the tensions there? Bush was told to shut up and back out of this altercation by the Hezbollah leader.

Would this be a great opportunity to stand back and show the rest of the world why it is important for the US to step in as "big brother" and be the claming voice or should we stand back and let terror reign?

I'm torn between helping and/or telling them tough cow patties...y'all deal with it.

[Super Dave]

I say back out. Let the folks across the pond get a taste of the hijacked religion. Too bad there's not more of it in Russia, France, and Germany.

[Capt Kat]

We have enough going on. Let Europe deal with it. Those people are just looking for something to blame the US for. I can't belive that they don't feel it's a double standard to desecrate anything western including religion and God but a syterical cartoon causes mass rioting. I am not dissing the Muslium religion but it shows you how out of touch they are with the modern world. The Nostradamus predicted Holy war has begun to show it's ugly head. (if you belive that kind of stuff)

PS Glad to see the Jungle back up!!

[Oldeman]

Get the devil out and let those morons kill each other. It won't take long and they'll be back begging for our help. IF we help them, then they MUST pay the entire cost of our being there and not pay on credit. All foreign aid to them is stopped when we leave.
Gold, cash, or oil. In God we trust, all other must pay cash.

[MEGABITE]

I especially disliked the adolescent actions of the Iranian newspaper that is having
a contest to see who can send in the most offensive Holocaust cartoon so they
can run them in their paper as revenge. These are the kind of idiots we are dealing with here....they can't even get the countries or religions they are attacking
right. :mad:

[InfamousJ]

I say we let technology take care of them.... either a trip to see their 40 virgins or a trip to the moon.

[LouieB]

How about a trip to the center of the earth. Or at least 6 feet down.

[InfamousJ]

In Brussels, Belgium, Mohamed Ahmed Sherif, chairman of the Libyan-based World Islamic Call Society, said Muslims see the drawings as a direct attack on their values and called the decision to print them in European newspapers a "hate program.""Nobody should blame the Muslims if they are unhappy about the images of the Prophet Muhammad," Sherif said. "It's forbidden to create a hate program to show that the prophet is a terrorist while he's not. Don't ask us to try to make people understand that this is not a campaign of hate.""There can be no settlement before an apology and there can be no settlement before laws are legislated by the European Parliament and the parliaments of European countries," he said.Islamic nations should demand "a law committing the press and the media in the West that proscribes insulting our prophet. If this matter cannot be achieved that means they (West) insist on continuing this," he added.
Someone needs to tell him to crawl out of his own little world and recognize there are more people on this earth than his little band of towel headed terrorist threat making losers.

[Super Dave]

j, how do you get all those quotes to appear in one reply?

[InfamousJ]

Click the quote button on your post.. copy and paste what shows up as many times as you like and change the wording in between the brackets to what you want, can also change the name in the first part of the QUOTE=<name> section.

[jc]

I say puck em... if I want to draw a cartoon in which jesus and mohamed are gay lovers, I'll do just that... now we know exactly how sensitive they are and I would expect our press to act responsibly in the future. however, if I agree that my freedom of expression is valuable enough to let other americans fly swastikas which are very offensive to me, then I say let cartoonists do what cartoonists do... too bad they had to join the ranks of salmon rushdie?, etc w/ perpetual death threat hanging over them, but thats the way it goes. Kuddos to the other eauropean newspapers that published the toons in a show of solidarity with the Danes. No matter what level of personal freedoms these folks may choose to enjoy in their own countries, they cannot be allowed to dictate our's or our european allies' freedoms...

jc

[Farmer Jim]

Just a couple of observations.

The Koran makes no mention of whether one can depict an image of Mohammed. In fact, historically, Muslim art is full of depictions of him. The prohibition that the Muslims are carrying on about is a "Fatwa" issued by some obscure Egyptian Mullah in the early 1940's. The vast majority of Muslims were not even aware of it. There are jillions of "Fatwas" that have been issued by Mulla's and Imans over the centuries that are ignored.

Anybody remember the disgusting piece of "art" that was at a showing (NY I thinK) a few years ago? Showed the Cross in a bottle of urine. I think the title was "P__s Christ". It doesn't get much more insulting or demeaning of one's religion than that. BUT, there were no riots. In fact I really only remember outrage from a few conservatives columnists and a couple clergy. Hmmmmm, maybe there are different degrees of religions of peace?

[Havens]

I say we fly over the protesters and drop thousands of comic books filled with Mohammed cartoons.

[Snagged]

I say back out. Let the folks across the pond get a taste of the hijacked religion. Too bad there's not more of it in Russia, France, and Germany.
http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060207-072431-9805r

Moscow museum to exhibit Mohammed cartoons

MOSCOW, Feb. 7 (UPI) -- A Moscow museum has announced it will exhibit the entire series of cartoons of Mohammed that have caused riots throughout the Islamic world.

Yury Samodurov, director of the Sakharov Museum and Public Center, said on Russian television that the center was ready to organize a public exhibition of the cartoons satirizing the founder of Islam that originally were published in a Danish newspaper, Pravda.ru reported Monday.

"We must show the whole world that Russia goes along with Europe, that the freedom of expression is much more important for us than the dogmas of religious fanatics," Samodurov said.

The exhibition reportedly will open in March. Lawyer Yury Shmidt has said he will invite French philosopher Andre Glucksmann and French novelist Michel Houellebecq to the opening ceremony to read lectures about the threat of Islamic fundamentalism.

In 2003 the Sakharov Museum outraged many Russian Orthodox believers with the art exhibit "Be Careful -- Religion," which many felt was insulting to their beliefs.

[LouieB]

Lets see the Muslims screw with Russia. I can see riots with Moo-hammed led Muslims facing the Russian national military.

[InfamousJ]

they're only doing it in those screwed up countries.. Afghan, Iran, Syria, etc... they won't do anything violent in Russia.. bring attention to the ones that Russia needs to take out of their society. Same reason they won't do it here either... as soon as they start demonstrating our govts would put them on the watch list and their lives would be non-private from here on out... they are to sneaky and cowardly to come out of the closet for a cartoon in our countries.

[GUNnROD]

Check out my new avatar. :)

[Snagged]

Check out my new avatar. :)
I like it.

[Ernest]

I think you guys are looking at this from the wrong perspective. No one in their right mind thinks the riots are going to end freedom of expression in the West. Thats just stupid.

This is sabre rattling by the leaders to keep their crew/people/population pumped up and excited. It empowers the crowds. It also shows the strength of the leaders themselves to mobilize all these folks. About what does not mattter.

Its like the Million Man March or countless other ineffectual exercises in look busy, accomplish nothing, power to the people, watch the leaders pull the strings deals.

[GUNnROD]

I don't disagree Ernest. But LouieB asked if we should be involved with it.

I think we should not concern ourselves with it. It is just a distraction and only shows how ignorant these people are.

[LouieB]

Ernest... I value your opinion and appreciate your feedback. My real question was what should the US do?

I'm with you on the concept of a cage rattling session going on...but why and should the US get involved? One side of me says ..."I wish they would self destruct themselves" while the other half says save them because they really need it. But since reading all these posts...I am leaning more towards the self destruction part and letting the US take care of themselves.

And since this is a mindless power play by the Muslim leaders...why isn't the US smart enough to say .."Your cr@p, deal with it". Kind of like the MMM...what good did that do except allow a bunch of A.A. off of work, with a reason, for a week?



and BTW... GNR... I think your new avatar is the "bomb"!!!!!!!!!http://www.2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/images/icons/icon12.gifhttp://www.2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/images/icons/dance.gif

[Ernest]

What I am saying is once one understands the purpose/motivations of the folks encouraging the conduct or engaging in the conduct, the answer is easy.

Don't engage in any conduct which furthers these folks ends. Undermine the leadership of the mobs, support the forces in opposition, and don't continue the debate relating to freedom of expression in order to limit the news coverage. Treat the issue as a non-starter.

Of course, if I was feeling argumentative, I would mention the similarlities with the recent uproars over a TV series, Nipplegate, FCC censorship, Brokeback Mountain, and the alleged undermining of our God fearing traditions by the immoral Hollywood left. This whole alleged cultural war in the US. One primary difference is that the folks in the US lack the sack to engage in any large scale civil disobedience.

But, its Friday, so I will go easy on that.

[centexfisher]

Of course, if I was feeling argumentative, I would mention the similarlities with the recent uproars over a TV series, Nipplegate, FCC censorship, Brokeback Mountain, and the alleged undermining of our God fearing traditions by the immoral Hollywood left. This whole alleged cultural war in the US. One primary difference is that the folks in the US lack the sack to engage in any large scale civil disobedience.

You might want to read this if you never have or haven't in a while:
http://eserver.org/thoreau/civil.html

Excerpt:

[18] No man with a genius for legislation has appeared in America. They are rare in the history of the world. There are orators, politicians, and eloquent men, by the thousand; but the speaker has not yet opened his mouth to speak who is capable of settling the much-vexed questions of the day. We love eloquence for its own sake, and not for any truth which it may utter, or any heroism it may inspire. Our legislators have not yet learned the comparative value of free-trade and of freedom, of union, and of rectitude, to a nation. They have no genius or talent for comparatively humble questions of taxation and finance, commerce and manufacturers and agriculture. If we were left solely to the wordy wit of legislators in Congress for our guidance, uncorrected by the seasonable experience and the effectual complaints of the people, America would not long retain her rank among the nations. For eighteen hundred years, though perchance I have no right to say it, the New Testament has been written; yet where is the legislator who has wisdom and practical talent enough to avail himself of the light which it sheds on the science of legislation?
[19] The authority of government, even such as I am willing to submit to—for I will cheerfully obey those who know and can do better than I, and in many things even those who neither know nor can do so well—is still an impure one: to be strictly just, it must have the sanction and consent of the governed. It can have no pure right over my person and property but what I concede to it. The progress from an absolute to a limited monarchy, from a limited monarchy to a democracy, is a progress toward a true respect for the individual. Even the Chinese philosopher(8) was wise enough to regard the individual as the basis of the empire. Is a democracy, such as we know it, the last improvement possible in government? Is it not possible to take a step further towards recognizing and organizing the rights of man? There will never be a really free and enlightened State until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived, and treats him accordingly. I please myself with imagining a State at least which can afford to be just to all men, and to treat the individual with respect as a neighbor; which even would not think it inconsistent with its own repose if a few were to live aloof from it, not meddling with it, nor embraced by it, who fulfilled all the duties of neighbors and fellow-men. A State which bore this kind of fruit, and suffered it to drop off as fast as it ripened, would prepare the way for a still more perfect and glorious State, which also I have imagined, but not yet anywhere seen.

[Snagged]

The Danish Muslim group also did something dishonest — it added a number of far more derogatory cartoons of the Prophet

NY Post - February 9, 2006
By Amir Taheri

-- 'A BLESSING from God": So have Iran's leaders, starting with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, described the controversy over the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed.

A closer look at the row, however, shows that the whole rigmarole was launched by Sunni-Salafi groups in Europe and Asia, with Ahmadinejad and his Syrian vassal, President Bashar al-Assad, belatedly playing catch-up. God had nothing to do with it.

To see how the whole thing was manufactured to serve precise political ends, consider the chronology of events:

The cartoons were published last September and, for more than three months, caused no ripples outside small groups of Salafi militants in Denmark.

In December, a group of Danish Muslim militants filled their suitcases with photocopies of the cartoons and embarked on a tour of Muslim capitals.

They failed to get to Tehran: The Iranians, being Shi'ites, saw them as Sunni activists bent on mischief. But they managed to go to Cairo, Damascus and Beirut and, were allowed to send emissaries to Saudi Arabia.

The Danish Muslim group also did something dishonest — it added a number of far more derogatory cartoons of the Prophet to the 12 published by the Jyllands-Posten newspaper, and misled its interlocutors in Muslim capitals into believing that all had appeared in the Danish press.

In Cairo, the Muslim Brotherhood told the Danish group that this was not the time to kick a fuss over the cartoons. The brotherhood was busy plotting its election strategy and pretending to be a "moderate" political party. The last thing it wanted was to be branded as a rabid anti-West force. The brotherhood leaders suggested that the matter be put on ice until January.

The Danish militants also received a negative reply from Hamas, the Palestinian radical movement. Hamas was busy trying to win a general election and needed to reassure at least part of the Palestinian middle classes. The Hamas advice was: Wait until after we have won.

The emissaries found a more sympathetic audience in Qatar — where the satellite-TV channel Al Jazeera (owned by the emir) specializes in inciting Muslims against the West and democracy in general. The channel's chief Islamist televangelist, Yussuf al-Qaradawi (an Egyptian preacher who is also a friend of Ken Livingstone, the mayor of London), was all too keen to issue a "fatwa" to light the fuse. He then mobilized his network of Muslim Brotherhood militants in Europe to attack the cartoons and claim, falsely, that images were not allowed in Islam and that the Danish paper had violated "an absolute principle of The Only True Faith."

Thus the call for Jihad received its supposed "theological" green light. (Ironically, the section of the brotherhood headed by al-Qaradawi is financed by the European Union as a non-governmental organization.)

As the first rent-a-mob crowds appeared on global TV screens, Ahmadinejad realized that here was a cow worth milking.

For Denmark is set to assume the rotating presidency of the U.N. Security Council — at the very time that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) is expected to refer Iran to the Security Council and demand sanctions. What better, for Tehran's purposes, than to portray Denmark as "an enemy of Islam" and mobilize Muslim sympathy against the Security Council?

To regain the initiative from the Sunni-Salafi groups, Ahmadinejad quickly ordered a severing of commercial ties with Denmark, thus portraying the Islamic Republic as the Muslim world's leader in the anti-Danish campaign.

Syria was next to jump on the bandwagon, again for mercenary reasons. The United Nations wants Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and five of his relatives and aides, including his younger brother, for questioning in the murder of Lebanon's former premier, Rafiq al-Hariri. (Assad has tried to negotiate immunity for himself and his brother in exchange for handing over the others — but the U.N. wouldn't play.) As with Iran's nuclear program, the Syrian dossier will reach the Security Council under Danish presidency. To portray Denmark as "an enemy of the Prophet" would not be such a bad thing when the council, as expected, points the finger at Assad and his regime as responsible for a series of political murders, including that of Hariri.

The Danish-cartoons cow will also be milked in another way: Tehran and Damascus have launched a diplomatic campaign to put the issue of "protecting religions against blasphemy" on the Security Council agenda. If that were to happen, issues such as Iran's quest for the atomic bomb and Syria's murder machine in Lebanon might be pushed aside, at least as far as world public opinion is concerned.

People watching TV news may think that the whole Muslim world is ablaze with righteous rage translated into "spontaneous demonstrations." The truth is that the overwhelming majority of Muslims, even if offended by cartoons which they have not seen, have stayed away from the street shows put on by the radicals and the Iranian and Syrian security services.

The destruction of Danish and Norwegian embassies and consulates happened in only two places: Damascus and Beirut. Anyone who knows Syria would know that there are no spontaneous demonstrations in that dictatorship. (Even then, the Syrian secret police failed to attract more than 1,000 rent-a-mob militants.) And the Syrian government refused the Norwegian Embassy's request for additional police protection. It was clear that the Syrians wanted the embassies sacked.

The rent-a-mob attacks in Beirut were more cynical. The Syrian Ba'ath — which has been murdering, imprisoning or deporting Sunni-Salafi militants for years — was suddenly transformed from a radical secular and Socialist party into "the Vanguard of the Faith." The mob that committed the atrocities in Beirut was bused from Syria and consisted of Muslim Brotherhood militants who are never allowed to demonstate on their own account.

The Muslim crowds that have demonstrated over the cartoons seldom exceeded a few hundred; the Muslim segment of humanity is estimated at 1.2 billion. And only three of Denmark's embassies in 57 Muslim countries have been attacked.

The Danish Muslim gang who lied by adding cartoons that had never been published has done more damage to the Prophet and to Islam than the 12 controversial cartoonists of Jyllands-Posten.

The fight between Denmark and its detractors is not between the West and Islam. It is between democracy and a global fascist movement masquerading as religion.

Iranian author Amir Taheri is a member of Benador Associates.

[Ernest]

Centex: I am missing your point.

Are you taking the sides of the mobs here, or just coming forth with a civil disobedience cut and paste?

[centexfisher]

I was just sharing something regarding your comment on civil disobedience-Thoreau's treatise on Civil Disobedience discusses, among other things, the public's lack of willingness to become involved in civil disobedience. I have no point, other than to share something I thought you might appreciate regarding civil disobedience. Do with it as you wish.

[Super Dave]

Centex, thanks.

[Ernest]

Ok. Thanks.

Not sure what the Gif from the Superlative one means.

[jc]

I think superdude just likes to wipe thoreaughly

jc

[Ernest]

JC - now thats funny.

[Snagged]

I think superdude just likes to wipe thoreaughly

jc
BrokenBack?

[jvkorenek@sbcglobal.net]

all i can say is what comes around goes around its bull&&&& let them go figure it out but then again a good *** whopin woudnt huurt either.jay