train....

[jfo]

Nighttrain....you're a Gaston'ite.....
Tell me what this says wrt my house on Kerr.
http://epec.saw.usace.army.mil/TNC-8-26-04-Proposal.pdf
...jfo

[NightTrain]

Joe:clicked but nuttin' happened...:question:

[jfo]

try it again or cut n paste it into the browser.
the site is the kerr lake corp of eng
it working for me....btw, if you on dialup....the .pdf file is quite big and it might look stuck when it coming down the pipe...lemme know
jfo

[NightTrain]

OK-hang on.

[NightTrain]

Ok...To me(and I skimmed through it)it sounds as though,they want more water moving,in a nutshell...The power co.'s sound to be the holdup?I think there would be less "flood control "flooding,which Kerr has always been the"holding tank",since the Corps has an agreement to keep Gaston at the same level(+/-1'),and the lower RoanokeRiver hardwood bottoms,the shad and striper migrations to consider....all good things if they don't become detrimental to one another,in some way.Sounds as if this would be a good thing for you concerning your property.Explain it to me in your own words...I may be missing something.Will it affect the downriver ecosystems and bottomlands?The striper/shad migrations would be benefited...right?No changes in Gaston's levels,to speak of?Power values the issue?Good thread,dude...tell me what the general concensus is.:mpd:

[jfo]

so i am not an eggspurt here but what i see:
1. The flows into gaston and out of gaston are not really addressed. To me, the bigtime issue would be if gaston were to be higher at a given instant THEN a big rain even caused a release to be required from kerr. It has never happened that I can see that Kerr got uncontrol-able but from the corp page, the top of the crest gates is 320 and in april of 87 the water got to 319.65. I've always heard the dam at the bottom of gaston was the real trouble that everybody guarded against because of the relatively limited amount of water that it can control compared to kerr.
2. On the same subject, the river "backflow" is not addressed in Kerr. I'd see this as a positive to kerr but a negative to gaston. Goes like this...If they were spilling water into gaston per this rule and then a water event happened, even if the corp saw a "surge" coming they might not be able to release enough into gaston to lower kerr enough to prevent a foot or two higer up in Clarksville where the river surge might add a foot or more to the lake level....the corp calculates this surge at just under a foot.
3. What is not really spoken about here is, if its so easy like the .ppt says...why don't the corp just agree? Those guys in Wilmington are smart and generally they know something.
4. To use 89 as an example is crazy to me. The highest number in 89 is May when the number got to 309ish. That is the 35th from the top month for highest level....If you want to talk impact, and when you might get my house wet if you mess up.....talk to me about the lowEST and the highEST years...this is unexplainable.

In a nutshell, I smell a snake but I have neither the time nor inclination to root him out...jfo

[NightTrain]

Joe:
I see what your saying now...I remember back a few years ago that they released soooo much water during one of the hurricanes,that people's pontoons were crushed under their boathouses,and boats,furniture,etc. were floatin' down the lake.We're just not used to the big variables in waterlevel that ya'll are...but,a sh!tload of water gets run through Gaston.I can stand at my window and tell if they are runnin' the Gaston Dam or the Kerr Dam,and how hard they are runnin' it...just by watchin' the surface" flow ripples" that are created when the water is either suckin' into the creek,under the bridge tubes,or pushing out,sucking water out of the creek.I believe the flood on Gaston was when they actually opened "the floodgates",though.Sounds to me like sumpin' ain't zackly right,either,hoss.Wonder how the So.Hill and Va.Beach water pipelines drawing would be affected?Lots of questions...:question:

[NightTrain]

Btw,Joe...the Gaston Dam is not comparable to Kerr Dam in size and as I remember from conversations with oldtimers and from reading,Roanoke Rapids and Weldon were literally,underwater,during the pre-dam days,after a flooding rain event....:cloud:

[jfo]

Those inlet pipes are impacted by low water but unaffected by high. I seem to recall the inlet there on nutbush was a humongus topic in 2002 when the water level got down to 291.

Your point on the dam down there being smaller is what I was thinking of in the earlier...say you were the guy in Wilmington. Ok, say you'd been releasing water into gaston AND below gaston and things were pretty much full. Now Kerr holds a lot of water but in 1987 when we got to 319.65 it was in April. To put this in perspective inflow in May then was 8825 and in April it was 37,576. Now the normal guide curve is around 303 anyway, its highest value of the year. (http://epec.saw.usace.army.mil/jhkrelev.jpg) . So you are this engineer and you see this 37,564 flood coming around 5 days in advance but due to this regular flow thingie, gaston and below gaston are already "up". If you release...you could kill somebody down there. If you hold, in five days when the water gets to the Dam it could be a lot worse on them. I reckon this is the snake I smell:

If the corp can calculate that the river "push" adds a maximum of 1.25 inches due to fluid dynamics between the Dam and Clarksville (my earlier post did not remember the corp email rightly) then I figger they have themselves some of them "hydro-science" guys on staff. The issue on reserve power might be just the political thing that would cause these guys stress but at the end I am thinking they will and do do everything in their power to prevent loss of property and life first and THEN they look at the trees and all that stuff in the conservacy charts. I've formed this view from a limited engagement with them but they surely seem to me to be pro's....This leaves me trapped into the uneducated view that they are trying to manage within "many masters" and when Gaston has to rise....something is not normal.

So in retrospect, what I'd like to see is a spreadsheet overlay of what would have happened to gaston and below in the high-water events asuming that the nature flows were the starting point. Oh, one more thingie, if all that water is released per the plan what is the additional risk to the striper spawn in kerr?

In way over my head...jfo

[TXPalerider]

HUH? :spineyes: Y'all are in waaaaaaay over my head. Good luck figgerin' it out. I'm lost.

[NightTrain]

I'm kinda in the same boat,Joe...although,all of this is extremely interesting to hypothisize about.I reckon that Kerr is the "flood control impoundment" of the Roanoke River System,and therefore,historically,has suffered the brunt of flooding,over the years...There's so many high dollar homes(on Gaston and the Roanoke)and even whole riverside towns down river,that I don't see how you could release but so much water.The homes on Kerr are required(as you know)to be at a certain level above flood stage,and all docks are "floaters"...whereas,that's not the case down here and all docks are permanent"piling" types....I'd be interested in hearing any new info,developments,or opinions!I don't know enough to comment more than mere speculation.
p.s.-Hawkeye is into hydrodynamics and stuff...he's likely to have comment and educated opinions on this subject.Check back...he's in and out the last few weeks.:cool:

[Willy]

Yea, think I might need an education for all that. I can see where JFO would be concerned, building a house on Kerr...with a guest house for his ol pal willy...sure don't want that under water.

Hey TXPalerider, I grew up in Texas...Don't mess wit Texas

Willy

[jfo]

hey man...I live ABOVE the Dam. In the prior we mentioned the water at 291 and at 319.65 a delta of 28.65! My house is within sight of the bridges at Clarksville. At my house the corp line is 320 but above the bridges the corp takes their level to 325 because of the River "push" I mentioned. I believe it goes to 328 up the rivers somewhere buit I cannot find that in the management plan book. So with 28 feet to play with my dock better float! I like the lake around 300 which is where they try to keep it, its very hard to get into the rivers below 295 or so, a guy would have to have a jet drive or some crazy thing like that if'n he wanted to chase a flattie in the dry summer....Train, did I mention that there are no fish above the dam either?
...jfo

[NightTrain]

Wuzzup,hossfly....it's a man versus nature,man vs man thang....we ain't sure we understand it either...dat's what we talkin' 'bout....whatdya think?I think I know what joe's sayin'...but, neither Joe or I know what the guvment's sayin'...ya know what I'm sayin'?(I think):confused: :biggrin:

[NightTrain]

Willy:
Aint it a fish or 2 in Kerr?Seems like I saw you holding one in a picture somewhere?:biggrin: Joe,yeah, that's what I mean...ya'll are kinda "built for it" or are set up for the flooding...whereas,down here,five feet would be darn near catastrophic.

[jfo]

Its the Nature Guys I can't figger out....pretty charts though....
Hey Willy my house is right on the 320 line where I put it....According to my read, there is not zippety-squat anybody can do if the water goes over 320 cause it clears the top of the crestgates at the dam (watch out below). Hydro says 1.25 inches from there to me so that's 320 and 1.25 inch and I figger I'll cut them a foot just for grins and you know what? It might be one heck-of-a-mess down at the train-station but I'll be fishing off the deck...note that the lake was less at 1/2 a foot of doing that twice since the pond was flooded and within 3feet only five times so I am simply not too worried...jfo

[jfo]

no fish above the dam...just ask willy...jfo

[Willy]

Nope, no fish above the dam...heard there be some hawgz in gaston tho

[jfo]

yea Gaston...they all in Gaston...and even the train say he come up to kerr to get bait to take BACK to gaston. So we telling him what he already knows, thx for b/u willy....jfo

[NightTrain]

Joe:
that's right...it was a mess down here when they opened the floodgates(was it '96?)That whole scenario seems kinda implausable to me...you too?

[NightTrain]

---------- jr?He's a kid...joe.I read the advise you gave him on gettin and givin respect...and not tellin' tall tales!:tongue: There are acoupla others that say they fish Gaston for cats but I haven't seen 'em around.

[jfo]

96 was fifth. Here are the highest five in history of dam...
MAX Elev
1987apr319.61
1987may319.49
1975apr318.85
1978may318.75
1996sept318.53

In April and may is when the guide curve is up anyway for the spawn and spring so that why i worried about those months. I dunno how long it takes a drop of water to go from kerr to gaston dam....jfo

[jfo]

ahh. ok. u right. i humble. Maybe we got a few "eaters" up here. But for sure if you want a biggun you gotta go below the Dam...jfo

[NightTrain]

I think we all are blessed to live in this area and have so many good choices about where we can go and catch bigguns....even if it is up in da rocks on a jetboat or sumpin'!!!:biggrin:

[Willy]

Cheers on that one NightTrain:cheers:

[NightTrain]

:cheers: ....Ya'll come to "The Lounge" mo' often.

[jfo]

Hey mudd cat caused all this and the Christmas Story to boot...and he hasn't even weighed in. Oh, we do have excellent mud cats up here above the dam too....jfo

[NightTrain]

Muddcatt's a good man...he just got dat deerhuntin' thang real bad.
BTW...How come there are flatties in the upper reaches of Kerr,but never caught(or even heard of one bein' caught)in lower Kerr or especially Gaston?What's up with that?I did read the post you submitted about catchin' one in the tailrace at Kerr Dam...true?

[Willy]

Lets hear bout that muddcat you caught the other night JFO

[NightTrain]

Lets hear bout that muddcat you caught the other night JFODid he snag a goodun,Willy?

[jfo]

On july 5, 2002 we were camping at County line. My Dad and I went down the walking trail on the NC side of the Dam, just across the structure but still onthe dike part. There's a gravel road and a little cemetary thingie and some walking trails down to the river below the dam. We walked from the car down say 1.25 miles to the river and there's a spot there on a corner of a little creek inlet where a pool is. We had store-bought minnows which we used to catch junkfish, the we hook-ed up and used the junkfish live. We caught one eater size blue and about as many eater size flatheads as we wanted to catch, pretty much one after another. This was in daytime 1-6pm. 7lbs is biggest I think...jfo

[NightTrain]

I know the place...that creek meanders around and dumps back in to the lake around the bend,creating an island.That island is "Bugg's Island"...the namesake of Kerr/Bugg's Island.I have to say that I'm glad to hear they're in Gaston...Just never caught one.Those boulders and holes certainly are a flattie paradise.You can't take a boat up in that far either(close to the dam),secluding it further.Cool,Joe...learned sumpin' new again,today.:mpd:
p.s.-Ya know,come to think about it,I've caught several small cats over the years,that I thought looked very much like baby flatheads,but, ended up thinkin' them to be brown bullheads.Now I know!

[NightTrain]

Willy mentioned one you caught the other night?

[Willy]

Reckon that was my mistake Train...sry bro.:ohwell:

[NightTrain]

Hey...that's cool,Willy.I just loves me a feeshin' story.Can't seem to get enough of 'em!:D

[mudd_catt]

Hey, I am still here, just been working overtime lately, and trying to help my brother get his gas station/grill going and making money. It's been real hectic around here, but I still around. I wanna go fishin, but de guy still ain't got my bote ready to put a motor on. :(